Fedora usability : a new project?
Rick Stuart
stuart.cr at gmail.com
Thu Aug 10 18:11:56 UTC 2006
Okay, I'll submit a new thread for each of the comments I made to see
if I can clarify my reasons for SHOUTING.
Perhaps I need to ask for clarification on the proposed perspective.
Are we talking about home PeeCee users or corporate? I deal with the
dichotomy of Windows-vs-Linux in both environments, so I would be most
interested in seeing how this goes. I personally don't care about most
of the GUI, (except the SCREENSAVER...;-), but it seems to be the way
most people will expect to approach administering their system. In a
corporate environment, you can get away with doing most of that for
them.....except when they pick up their laptop and get on a plane for
Jakarta. Then we have a problem.
CLI seems simple enough unless you are telling someone to "cee dee to
slash ee tee cee slash ess why ess cee oh in eff eye gee" over a bad
connection. We try to think ahead to address what they might encounter,
but there is always something.
Obviously, we need to spend more time using the GUI tools so we can see
how they work and what needs to be done with them because the blank
stares (or the silence and then a sigh) I get when I say "Click on
Applications/Accessories/Terminal...".
Thanks,
Rick
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (Rick Stuart)
> 2. Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (Rahul)
> 3. Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (David Nielsen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:16:24 -0500
> From: Rick Stuart <stuart.cr at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Fedora usability : a new project?
> To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <44D90D38.5050701 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and
> dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit
> someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your
> pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it
> out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way
> to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by
> opening a terminal window, and then it's all over.
>
> Here are a couple of suggestions:
>
> Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that
> they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of
> ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a
> good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like
> /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers.
>
> I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to
> users who are new to Linux. Package manager is nice, but then there is
> that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root
> so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does
> it even connect to YUM? I am not seeing all the available packages I
> can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then
> why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say
> the U-word.
>
> Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not
> any better....
>
> FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like
> KDE's....It USED to be!
>
> Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that
> down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT
> ready for them.
>
> That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and
> I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash.
> Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being
> evolution. Thunderbird!
>
> Rick Stuart
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:45:30 +0530
> From: Rahul <sundaram at redhat.com>
> Subject: Re: Fedora usability : a new project?
> To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
> <fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <44D97D82.4060304 at redhat.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Rick Stuart wrote:
>
>> I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and
>> dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit
>> someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your
>> pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it
>> out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way
>> to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by
>> opening a terminal window, and then it's all over.
>>
>> Here are a couple of suggestions:
>>
>> Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that
>> they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of
>> ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a
>> good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like
>> /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers.
>>
>
>
> That isnt really a good model.
>
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-July/msg00814.html
>
>
>> I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to
>> users who are new to Linux.
>>
>
> Why? It has a consistent command line interface and it is no worse than
> any other command tool that I know of.
>
> http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/
>
>
> Package manager is nice, but then there is
>
>> that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root
>> so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does
>> it even connect to YUM?
>>
>
> Yes, It uses yum.
>
>
> I am not seeing all the available packages I
>
>> can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then
>> why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say
>> the U-word.
>>
>
> Click the big "List" button.
>
>
>> Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not
>> any better....
>>
>
> We have about a dozen in core and many more in extras. I think thats
> plenty of choice apart from the easily installable themes from
> art.gnome.org and kde-look.org
>
>
>
>> FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like
>> KDE's....It USED to be!
>>
>
> It never was. Xscreensavers was that way but it isnt in core anymore.
> There is a upstream discussion on adding this feature to the new GNOME
> screensaver program.
>
>
>
>> Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that
>> down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT
>> ready for them.
>>
>
> Use Network Manager. It is not enabled by default yet till we get a few
> features fixed.
>
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-August/msg00081.html
>
>
>
>> That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and
>> I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash.
>> Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being
>> evolution. Thunderbird!
>>
>
> Wont work. We need well integrated calendering functionality, Exchange
> interoperability etc and ThunderBird extensions are not very mature yet.
>
> Rahul
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 09:27:23 +0200
> From: David Nielsen <david at lovesunix.net>
> Subject: Re: Fedora usability : a new project?
> To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
> <fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <1155108443.2872.38.camel at price>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> tir, 08 08 2006 kl. 17:16 -0500, skrev Rick Stuart
>
>> Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that
>> they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of
>> ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a
>> good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like
>> /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers.
>>
>
> PolicyKit should provide this functionality the right way. I don't know
> if we have an ETA on this being useful but I would rather wait for a
> proper fix than use priviliage escalation that can introduce problems
> like horrid security . having to audit half a million lines of GTK+ code
> because it now runs as root and any slight bug could take down the
> system is my very definition of not funny.
>
>
>> I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to
>> users who are new to Linux. Package manager is nice, but then there is
>> that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root
>> so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does
>> it even connect to YUM? I am not seeing all the available packages I
>> can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then
>> why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say
>> the U-word.
>>
>
> You should always provide some kind of authication when installing
> programs globally, not doing so is inviting all kinds of security issues.
> The software manager doesn't seem slow to me, however the UI locks up
> due to it not being threaded - Katz' has strong arguments against adding
> that kind of complexity to the code. I think we might need to make him
> compromise a bit to make the UI not appear like it died - users tend to not
> like that behavior, myself included.
>
> Ubuntu has the basically same setup was we do.
>
>
>> Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not
>> any better....
>>
>
> You should join the artwork team and point out specific things that would
> add to your enjoyment of Fedora, just saying "make it better" isn't really
> helpful. What are the specfic issues you have and do you have ideas to
> investigate.
>
> If you can provide a mockup it would be great if not, a lenghty explanation
> and maybe referencing parts of designs on gnome-look you do like would help
> us get to a default theme that was good looking while still retaining good
> usability across the board.
>
>
>> FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like
>> KDE's....It USED to be!
>>
>
> No it didn't, we used to use xscreensaver which had all kinds of other
> problems, gnome-screensaver restored some sanity. If you want additional
> features to gnome-screensaver upstream is the place to do it. I personally
> fail to see why this is so huge an issue that you feel the need to scream.
>
> If you have a specific thing that no longer works or could be improve please
> provide a better description of your issue than "fix it". It is not very
> helpful for either one of us. It is also not likely to get your issue the
> attention it deserves.
>
>
>> Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that
>> down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT
>> ready for them.
>>
>
> I think the solution here is Network-Manager, it is however not entirely
> ready for rollout. SuSE and SLED have replaced their entire networking
> system with it and it seems to work beautifully for them. This is being
> worked on heavily - have no fear. It will not make FC6 as the default
> but FC7 seems like the obvious place for it to be deployed - being a major
> change it needs a metric shitload of testing so it needs to be deployed
> early in the test cycle.
>
>
>> That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and
>> I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash.
>> Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being
>> evolution. Thunderbird!
>>
>
> Thunderbird isn't a suitable replacement for Evolution, we can't provide
> the same functionality like Exchange integration with it. Also it doesn't
> integrate as well with the underlying system as Evolution does. Another issue
> to consider is migration of existing accounts to Thunderbird which isn't
> working right as I recall.
>
> The proper solution would be to fix Evolution, maybe break it into seperate
> applications so it would be easier to fix or replace in the future with
> better options. Evolution sadly isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
>
> - David Nielsen
>
>
>
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