From cimi86 at alice.it Sat Nov 11 16:17:20 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 17:17:20 +0100 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme Message-ID: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Hi community, I'm Andrea Cimitan (aka Cimi), a gnome themer from Italy. :) Probably you had known my name in gnomelook.org, there I'm Cimi86, and I've created a lot of themes like Murrine GTK2 Cairo Engine (http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=42755, http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine.php) and Candido Themes. I was thinking about a new proposal for Fedora Core GTK look. Do you know that Ubuntu has "Ubuntulooks" as default theme engine, so I thought "Why Fedora couldn't have Murrine?". Feedbacks on gnomelook.org and polls on Ubuntu Forums hilight that Murrine is the favourite Engine of Linux Desktop users. That's why I'm proposing to you. Murrine is a new-conception GTK2 Cairo engine, it was a fork of Clearlooks code with a lot of improvements and bugfixes: its best feature is surely the "options" through which the users can easily change the look of all the themes (There's a GUI here: http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php). The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from gnome devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it is is incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and more if you compare it to Ubuntulooks. I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and then I can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop. This is my proposale, I'm absolutely available to support you and to start a good discussion on it. I'm sure you will take care of these ideas so we can start a constructive thread to support or against it. See you!! Cimi - Andrea Cimitan From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Sat Nov 11 17:55:31 2006 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:55:31 +0100 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <1163267732.7856.13.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Hi Andrea, you've posted on the right list, but most themers seem to insist on using fedora-art-list instead, so I'm pushing it there Le samedi 11 novembre 2006 ? 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan a ?crit : > Hi community, > I'm Andrea Cimitan (aka Cimi), a gnome themer from Italy. :) > Probably you had known my name in gnomelook.org, there I'm Cimi86, and > I've created a lot of themes like Murrine GTK2 Cairo Engine > (http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=42755, > http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine.php) and Candido Themes. > > I was thinking about a new proposal for Fedora Core GTK look. > Do you know that Ubuntu has "Ubuntulooks" as default theme engine, so I > thought "Why Fedora couldn't have Murrine?". > Feedbacks on gnomelook.org and polls on Ubuntu Forums hilight that > Murrine is the favourite Engine of Linux Desktop users. > That's why I'm proposing to you. > > Murrine is a new-conception GTK2 Cairo engine, it was a fork of > Clearlooks code with a lot of improvements and bugfixes: its best > feature is surely the "options" through which the users can easily > change the look of all the themes (There's a GUI here: > http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php). > The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from gnome > devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it is is > incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and more > if you compare it to Ubuntulooks. > > I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and then I > can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop. > > This is my proposale, I'm absolutely available to support you and to > start a good discussion on it. > I'm sure you will take care of these ideas so we can start a > constructive thread to support or against it. > > See you!! > > Cimi - Andrea Cimitan > > -- Nicolas Mailhot From sdl.web at gmail.com Sat Nov 11 18:26:46 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:26:46 +0000 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163267732.7856.13.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Cimi, On Sat, 11/11/06, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Hi Andrea, you've posted on the right list, but most themers seem to > insist on using fedora-art-list instead, so I'm pushing it there > > Le samedi 11 novembre 2006 ? 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan a ?crit : >> Hi community, >> I'm Andrea Cimitan (aka Cimi), a gnome themer from Italy. :) >> Probably you had known my name in gnomelook.org, there I'm Cimi86, and >> I've created a lot of themes like Murrine GTK2 Cairo Engine >> (http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=42755, >> http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine.php) and Candido Themes. >> >> I was thinking about a new proposal for Fedora Core GTK look. >> Do you know that Ubuntu has "Ubuntulooks" as default theme engine, so I >> thought "Why Fedora couldn't have Murrine?". >> Feedbacks on gnomelook.org and polls on Ubuntu Forums hilight that >> Murrine is the favourite Engine of Linux Desktop users. >> That's why I'm proposing to you. >> >> Murrine is a new-conception GTK2 Cairo engine, it was a fork of >> Clearlooks code with a lot of improvements and bugfixes: its best >> feature is surely the "options" through which the users can easily >> change the look of all the themes (There's a GUI here: >> http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php). >> The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from gnome >> devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it is is >> incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and more >> if you compare it to Ubuntulooks. >> >> I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and then I >> can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop. >> >> This is my proposale, I'm absolutely available to support you and to >> start a good discussion on it. >> I'm sure you will take care of these ideas so we can start a >> constructive thread to support or against it. >> >> See you!! >> >> Cimi - Andrea Cimitan >> >> > -- > Nicolas Mailhot I have actually suggested to use Murrine Engine? quite a while ago. However seems some people are confused with engine and theme. And to be honest I haven't find a good document to clear this confusion. With your support, I think Murrine Engine will be an excellent substitute for the clearlooks engine. I'm all for this change. But if FC7 is to use Murrine Engine, the package has to be in Core. I hope the art team make a decision asap. BTW, here is the .spec file -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: murrine.spec Type: application/octet-stream Size: 805 bytes Desc: murrine.spec URL: -------------- next part -------------- Footnotes: ? http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.artwork/364 -- Leo From rstrode at redhat.com Sun Nov 12 00:48:11 2006 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 19:48:11 -0500 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <1163292491.5022.4.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> Hi, On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and then I > can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop. It sounds interesting. Can you put together a theme that uses your engine that has fedora-ish colors? David, what do think? You might want to bring this up on the fedora-art list, too, so you can get some input from the fedora artists. --Ray -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter at thecodergeek.com Sun Nov 12 07:54:20 2006 From: peter at thecodergeek.com (Peter Gordon) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 23:54:20 -0800 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <1163292491.5022.4.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163292491.5022.4.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1163318060.26002.2.camel@tuxhugger> On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 19:48 -0500, Ray Strode wrote: > It sounds interesting. Can you put together a theme that uses your > engine that has fedora-ish colors? If it helps, There is a Curve color scheme for Clearlooks (and its Cairo-enabled counterparts in FC6+). This is the Clearlooks theme with Bluecurve-ish colors. (It's part of the gnome-theme-clearlooks-bigpack package that I maintain in Extras.) That might be a good place to start so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel, as the saying goes. ^_^ -- Peter Gordon (codergeek42) GnuPG Public Key ID: 0xFFC19479 / Fingerprint: DD68 A414 56BD 6368 D957 9666 4268 CB7A FFC1 9479 My Blog: http://thecodergeek.com/blog/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kite at interia.pl Sun Nov 12 13:08:39 2006 From: kite at interia.pl (Krzysztof Dubowik) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:08:39 +0100 Subject: Microphone does not work in FC6 Message-ID: Hi all, I'm out of ideas and I need your help. I've recently upgraded my system from FC4 to FC6 (a complete reinstall, actually). After the upgrade the microphone stopped to work. The strange thing is that it seems to work - there's a feedback from the speakers, but neither skype or krec record anything. Mozilla Flash plugin does not detect a microphone either. I have skype configured to use alsa and kde to use alsa as well. Changing to OSS does not make a difference. I use a soundcard integrated with my mother Gigabyte board as reported by lspci: 00:11.5 Multimedia audio controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT8233/A/8235/8237 AC97 Audio Controller (rev 60) I tries the following: switched on general "capture" in kmix and put it to 100%, disabled KDE sound system, but still no luck. Any thoughts? Krzysztof From cimi86 at alice.it Wed Nov 15 19:30:27 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:30:27 +0100 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme (Screenshot) In-Reply-To: <1163292491.5022.4.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163292491.5022.4.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20061115203027.752a91b8@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Il giorno Sat, 11 Nov 2006 19:48:11 -0500 Ray Strode ha scritto: > Hi, > > On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and > > then I can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop. > It sounds interesting. Can you put together a theme that uses your > engine that has fedora-ish colors? > > David, what do think? You might want to bring this up on the > fedora-art list, too, so you can get some input from the fedora > artists. > > --Ray Click to see my first screenshot of murrine with a simple fedora colorscheme... http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7726/previewml7.jpg Impressions??? -- Cimi - Andrea Cimitan http://cimi.netsons.org From duffy at redhat.com Wed Nov 15 19:36:24 2006 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:36:24 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: New Fedora GTK Theme (Screenshot)] Message-ID: <455B6C38.50403@redhat.com> including the art team in the discussion -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Andrea Cimitan Subject: Re: New Fedora GTK Theme (Screenshot) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:30:27 +0100 Size: 4594 URL: From duffy at redhat.com Wed Nov 15 19:40:24 2006 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:40:24 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: New Fedora GTK Theme (Screenshot)] In-Reply-To: <455B6C38.50403@redhat.com> References: <455B6C38.50403@redhat.com> Message-ID: <455B6D28.2080307@redhat.com> > From: > Andrea Cimitan > Click to see my first screenshot of murrine with a simple fedora > colorscheme... > > http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7726/previewml7.jpg > > Impressions??? 1) Overall I like the colors and shading. Quite nice! 2) There isn't really enough contrast in the menubars between the text and background. The text is hard to read. 3) I suspect the applications | places | menu item on the gnome panel would look funky with that menubar style? I noticed this is not included in the screenshot... Otherwise nice work! What metacity theme are you using? ~m From rstrode at redhat.com Wed Nov 15 20:14:40 2006 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:14:40 -0500 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme (Screenshot) In-Reply-To: <20061115203027.752a91b8@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163292491.5022.4.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061115203027.752a91b8@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <1163621680.2483.1.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> Hi, > > > > On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > > I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and > > > then I can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop. > > It sounds interesting. Can you put together a theme that uses your > > engine that has fedora-ish colors? > > > > David, what do think? You might want to bring this up on the > > fedora-art list, too, so you can get some input from the fedora > > artists. > > > > --Ray > > Click to see my first screenshot of murrine with a simple fedora > colorscheme... > > http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7726/previewml7.jpg > > Impressions??? I like it! Very smooth looking. One thing I would avoid is the blue menus and scrollbars. We had blue scrollbars in the default theme for a while and they weren't very popular. --Ray -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at lovesunix.net Thu Nov 16 04:12:57 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:12:57 +0100 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme (Screenshot) In-Reply-To: <1163621680.2483.1.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163292491.5022.4.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061115203027.752a91b8@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163621680.2483.1.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1163650377.2889.98.camel@dawkins> ons, 15 11 2006 kl. 15:14 -0500, skrev Ray Strode: > Hi, > > > > > > > On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > > > I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and > > > > then I can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop. > > > It sounds interesting. Can you put together a theme that uses your > > > engine that has fedora-ish colors? > > > > > > David, what do think? You might want to bring this up on the > > > fedora-art list, too, so you can get some input from the fedora > > > artists. > > > > > > --Ray > > > > Click to see my first screenshot of murrine with a simple fedora > > colorscheme... > > > > http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7726/previewml7.jpg > > > > Impressions??? > I like it! Very smooth looking. One thing I would avoid is the blue > menus and scrollbars. We had blue scrollbars in the default theme for > a while and they weren't very popular. All in all this is a fine effort. However: - The lollipop effect on progressbars tend to make text of those hard to read, could we try with a plain one colored progress bar? - Menubars are hard to read - Scrollbars in the swiftfox window are both inconsistent with the theme previwer and hard to read (which one is representative of the real theme?) - The blue buttons makes the text hard to read, this is especially visible on the ToggletoolButton example. - The blocking effect around the SpinButton arrows I take is compression not a feature of the theme But I generally like it a lot. - David -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Nov 16 05:19:33 2006 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:19:33 -0500 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <1163654373.3554.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from gnome > devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it is is > incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and more > if you compare it to Ubuntulooks. Famous last words... One obvious flaw of murrine 0.31 is that it doesn't pass the theme engine api test in http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/gtk%2B/gtk-engine-check-abi.sh Matthias From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Thu Nov 16 06:39:10 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:39:10 -0600 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme (Screenshot) In-Reply-To: <1163621680.2483.1.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <"1163292491.5 0 22.4.camel"@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <455C078E.4070108@prodigy.net.mx> Ray Strode escribi?: > Hi, > I like it! Very smooth looking. One thing I would avoid is the blue > menus and scrollbars. We had blue scrollbars in the default theme for > a while and they weren't very popular. > > --Ray I really liked the blue scrollbars of FC5's bluecurve, to the point that I based many themes for personal use with different colors (slate, green, silver...), apparently not everyone liked them, though. From cimi86 at alice.it Thu Nov 16 09:56:49 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:56:49 +0100 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <1163654373.3554.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163654373.3554.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20061116105649.6b88fffb@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:19:33 -0500 Matthias Clasen ha scritto: > On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > > The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from > > gnome devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it > > is is incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and > > more if you compare it to Ubuntulooks. > > Famous last words... > > One obvious flaw of murrine 0.31 is that it doesn't pass the theme > engine api test in > http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/gtk%2B/gtk-engine-check-abi.sh > > > Matthias > what's that? I've launched this script but what doesn't work? Anyway at least this engine has less bugs than clearlooks... this is what gnome developers said to me. -- Cimi - Andrea Cimitan http://cimi.netsons.org From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Nov 16 12:31:01 2006 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:31:01 -0500 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <20061116105649.6b88fffb@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163654373.3554.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061116105649.6b88fffb@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <1163680262.14301.15.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 10:56 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:19:33 -0500 > Matthias Clasen ha scritto: > > > On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > > > > The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from > > > gnome devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it > > > is is incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and > > > more if you compare it to Ubuntulooks. > > > > Famous last words... > > > > One obvious flaw of murrine 0.31 is that it doesn't pass the theme > > engine api test in > > http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/gtk%2B/gtk-engine-check-abi.sh > > > > > > Matthias > > > what's that? > I've launched this script but what doesn't work? > The engine exports more symbols than it has to, and pollutes the namespace by exporting things like shade() -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cimi86 at alice.it Thu Nov 16 12:36:51 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:36:51 +0100 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <1163680262.14301.15.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163654373.3554.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061116105649.6b88fffb@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163680262.14301.15.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20061116133651.608f2d31@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:31:01 -0500 Matthias Clasen ha scritto: > On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 10:56 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:19:33 -0500 > > Matthias Clasen ha scritto: > > > > > On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > > > > > > The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from > > > > gnome devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) > > > > and it is is incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than > > > > Clearlooks-Cairo and more if you compare it to Ubuntulooks. > > > > > > Famous last words... > > > > > > One obvious flaw of murrine 0.31 is that it doesn't pass the theme > > > engine api test in > > > http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/gtk%2B/gtk-engine-check-abi.sh > > > > > > > > > Matthias > > > > > what's that? > > I've launched this script but what doesn't work? > > > > The engine exports more symbols than it has to, and pollutes the > namespace by exporting things like shade() Fixed here... next version (0.32) will have it patched [cimi at hydra murrine-0.32]$ sh ~/Desktop/gtk-engine-check-abi.sh /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/engines/libmurrine.so [cimi at hydra murrine-0.32]$ -- Cimi - Andrea Cimitan http://cimi.netsons.org From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Nov 16 14:03:16 2006 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:03:16 -0500 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <20061116133651.608f2d31@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163654373.3554.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061116105649.6b88fffb@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163680262.14301.15.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116133651.608f2d31@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <1163685797.14301.29.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> Some more comments before I move on to something else: - It would be much more readable to use enumeration and named values in the rc files rather than cryptic integers: glazestyle = 1 # 0 = flat hilight, 1 = curved hilight, 2 = concave style menubarstyle = 2 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = gradient, 3 = striped menubaritemstyle = 0 # 0 = menuitem look, 1 = button look menuitemstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = striped listviewheaderstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy roundness = 5 # 0 = squared, 1 = old default, more will increase roundness - While these knobs to tweak are certainly nice, the one thing that most people want to tweak in a theme are the colors. I would personally be much more interested in themes which make use of the new symbolic color mechanism in GTK+ 2.10 to create "recolorable" themes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cimi86 at alice.it Thu Nov 16 14:19:15 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:19:15 +0100 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <1163685797.14301.29.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163654373.3554.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061116105649.6b88fffb@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163680262.14301.15.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116133651.608f2d31@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163685797.14301.29.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20061116151915.7759c557@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:03:16 -0500 Matthias Clasen ha scritto: > Some more comments before I move on to something else: > > - It would be much more readable to use enumeration and named values > in the rc files rather than cryptic integers: > > glazestyle = 1 # 0 = flat hilight, 1 = curved hilight, 2 = > concave style > menubarstyle = 2 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = gradient, 3 = > striped > menubaritemstyle = 0 # 0 = menuitem look, 1 = button look > menuitemstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = striped > listviewheaderstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy > roundness = 5 # 0 = squared, 1 = old default, more will > increase roundness > Murrine Configurator is solving this problem. 95% of users use Configurator to Configure their themes, so there's no problem related, and probably it will be a problem makin the opposite. I think that with strings people may write mistakes in typing and integers prevents this. Another thing is that with "integer" i can make >= == <= comparations in the engine so i can enable/disable features in a simple way. > > - While these knobs to tweak are certainly nice, the one thing that > most people want to tweak in a theme are the colors. I would > personally be much more interested in themes which make use of > the new symbolic color mechanism in GTK+ 2.10 to create > "recolorable" themes. When there will be a GUI (i.e. gnome 2.18 will probably features this) then I will certanly manage that improvement, even with you if you know how to manage it in the right way! :) -- Cimi - Andrea Cimitan http://cimi.netsons.org From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Nov 16 14:27:27 2006 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:27:27 -0500 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <20061116151915.7759c557@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163654373.3554.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061116105649.6b88fffb@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163680262.14301.15.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116133651.608f2d31@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163685797.14301.29.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116151915.7759c557@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <1163687247.26203.4.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 15:19 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:03:16 -0500 > Matthias Clasen ha scritto: > > > Some more comments before I move on to something else: > > > > - It would be much more readable to use enumeration and named values > > in the rc files rather than cryptic integers: > > > > glazestyle = 1 # 0 = flat hilight, 1 = curved hilight, 2 = > > concave style > > menubarstyle = 2 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = gradient, 3 = > > striped > > menubaritemstyle = 0 # 0 = menuitem look, 1 = button look > > menuitemstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = striped > > listviewheaderstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy > > roundness = 5 # 0 = squared, 1 = old default, more will > > increase roundness > > > Murrine Configurator is solving this problem. > 95% of users use Configurator to Configure their themes, so there's no > problem related, and probably it will be a problem makin the opposite. > I think that with strings people may write mistakes in typing and > integers prevents this. Honestly, I think you have your numbers wrong here. I'd expect it to be more like 1% of users who would ever consider using a tool like the configurator. And I disagree with the whole idea of having engine-specific configuration tools. If anything, such things should be part of a tweakui like tool that can handle multiple theme engines. But for discussing a default theme, it is completely irrelevant. The default theme must be good as is, no tweaking required. > Another thing is that with "integer" i can make >= == <= comparations > in the engine so i can enable/disable features in a simple way. well, enum values are also integers when the arrive in the engine... > > > > - While these knobs to tweak are certainly nice, the one thing that > > most people want to tweak in a theme are the colors. I would > > personally be much more interested in themes which make use of > > the new symbolic color mechanism in GTK+ 2.10 to create > > "recolorable" themes. > > When there will be a GUI (i.e. gnome 2.18 will probably features this) > then I will certanly manage that improvement, even with you if you know > how to manage it in the right way! :) > Yes, all I'm saying is that since we will have gnome 2.18 in FC7, it would be good to consider symbolic colors now when discussing a new default theme. Matthias -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cimi86 at alice.it Thu Nov 16 14:59:48 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:59:48 +0100 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <1163687247.26203.4.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163654373.3554.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061116105649.6b88fffb@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163680262.14301.15.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116133651.608f2d31@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163685797.14301.29.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116151915.7759c557@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163687247.26203.4.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20061116155948.3a3a5ea5@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:27:27 -0500 Matthias Clasen ha scritto: > On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 15:19 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:03:16 -0500 > > Matthias Clasen ha scritto: > > > > > Some more comments before I move on to something else: > > > > > > - It would be much more readable to use enumeration and named > > > values in the rc files rather than cryptic integers: > > > > > > glazestyle = 1 # 0 = flat hilight, 1 = curved hilight, 2 = > > > concave style > > > menubarstyle = 2 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = gradient, 3 = > > > striped > > > menubaritemstyle = 0 # 0 = menuitem look, 1 = button look > > > menuitemstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = striped > > > listviewheaderstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy > > > roundness = 5 # 0 = squared, 1 = old default, more will > > > increase roundness > > > > > Murrine Configurator is solving this problem. > > 95% of users use Configurator to Configure their themes, so there's > > no problem related, and probably it will be a problem makin the > > opposite. I think that with strings people may write mistakes in > > typing and integers prevents this. > > Honestly, I think you have your numbers wrong here. I'd expect it to > be more like 1% of users who would ever consider using a tool like > the configurator. And I disagree with the whole idea of having > engine-specific configuration tools. If anything, such things should > be part of a tweakui like tool that can handle multiple theme engines. > I'm referring to the people that *configure* themes... Great part of them use the configurator, as I see in Forums and where I talk about murrine. Anyway this is not a crucial problem... Since end-users are not using "options". Options are used only by themes-developers, and I think no one of them might have problems to use numbers instead words (for example in my tastes i prefer numbers) > But for discussing a default theme, it is completely irrelevant. The > default theme must be good as is, no tweaking required. > Options are just a "good" features to themers, beacuse they can customize their themes how they want. They are just something "more" that can favourite an engine rather than the opposite. Take for example "roundness" option, someone like squared, others rounded... When a distro like Fedora decided the look they make few adjustments and the look will appear looking even better than without options. And as i remember... there are always default values... > > Another thing is that with "integer" i can make >= == <= > > comparations in the engine so i can enable/disable features in a > > simple way. > > well, enum values are also integers when the arrive in the engine... Yes it can be tweaked easily i think > > > > > > - While these knobs to tweak are certainly nice, the one thing > > > that most people want to tweak in a theme are the colors. I would > > > personally be much more interested in themes which make use of > > > the new symbolic color mechanism in GTK+ 2.10 to create > > > "recolorable" themes. > > > > When there will be a GUI (i.e. gnome 2.18 will probably features > > this) then I will certanly manage that improvement, even with you > > if you know how to manage it in the right way! :) > > > > Yes, all I'm saying is that since we will have gnome 2.18 in FC7, it > would be good to consider symbolic colors now when discussing a new > default theme. This is not important for a "default" theme since normally people will never edit default themes of their distro... At least i have never do it. It's a nice feature/improvement but i think it's absolutely secondary than fixing bugs (if there are) and deciding the default "palette" of the distro. -- Cimi - Andrea Cimitan http://cimi.netsons.org From alexl at redhat.com Fri Nov 17 08:20:21 2006 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:20:21 +0100 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <20061116155948.3a3a5ea5@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163654373.3554.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061116105649.6b88fffb@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163680262.14301.15.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116133651.608f2d31@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163685797.14301.29.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116151915.7759c557@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163687247.26203.4.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116155948.3a3a5ea5@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <1163751622.23730.52.camel@greebo> On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 15:59 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:27:27 -0500 > Matthias Clasen ha scritto: > > Yes, all I'm saying is that since we will have gnome 2.18 in FC7, it > > would be good to consider symbolic colors now when discussing a new > > default theme. > > This is not important for a "default" theme since normally people will > never edit default themes of their distro... At least i have never do > it. > It's a nice feature/improvement but i think it's absolutely secondary > than fixing bugs (if there are) and deciding the default "palette" of > the distro. I'm not sure about that. For as long as I can remember, not having a way to customize colors in the UI has been a general complaint in each new Gnome or Fedora/Redhat release. Now that we finally have the capability to solve this I think we should try to get it done. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Alexander Larsson Red Hat, Inc alexl at redhat.com alla at lysator.liu.se He's a notorious guerilla librarian looking for a cure to the poison coursing through his veins. She's an orphaned thirtysomething advertising executive who inherited a spooky stately manor from her late maiden aunt. They fight crime! From cimi86 at alice.it Fri Nov 17 09:42:14 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:42:14 +0100 Subject: New Fedora GTK Theme In-Reply-To: <1163751622.23730.52.camel@greebo> References: <20061111171720.7f6c7e87@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163654373.3554.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061116105649.6b88fffb@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163680262.14301.15.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116133651.608f2d31@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163685797.14301.29.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116151915.7759c557@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163687247.26203.4.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <20061116155948.3a3a5ea5@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1163751622.23730.52.camel@greebo> Message-ID: <20061117104214.7ea67d72@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Il giorno Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:20:21 +0100 Alexander Larsson ha scritto: > On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 15:59 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > > Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:27:27 -0500 > > Matthias Clasen ha scritto: > > > > Yes, all I'm saying is that since we will have gnome 2.18 in FC7, > > > it would be good to consider symbolic colors now when discussing > > > a new default theme. > > > > This is not important for a "default" theme since normally people > > will never edit default themes of their distro... At least i have > > never do it. > > It's a nice feature/improvement but i think it's absolutely > > secondary than fixing bugs (if there are) and deciding the default > > "palette" of the distro. > > I'm not sure about that. For as long as I can remember, not having a > way to customize colors in the UI has been a general complaint in > each new Gnome or Fedora/Redhat release. Now that we finally have the > capability to solve this I think we should try to get it done. > We can wait next gnome release, or at least development versions. When Fedora Core 7 will be release we will gave next gnome versions and so we will have a tool... Then implementing that with murrine will be a lot easier... Please wait... this is not a problem now since we haven't GUI ready to manage it. -- Cimi - Andrea Cimitan http://cimi.netsons.org From fngdr at yahoo.com.cn Fri Nov 17 17:31:12 2006 From: fngdr at yahoo.com.cn (da feng) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 01:31:12 +0800 (CST) Subject: how about wxga monitor technology? Message-ID: <20061117173112.6798.qmail@web92015.mail.cnb.yahoo.com> hello everyone: I have a new compaq notebook, its monitor uses WXGA technology, the screen resolution can't be adjusted from the menu. and the system doesn't recognize the monitor type. the system>admin>display doesn't shows the correct type of monitor. how can I deal with it? thanks a lot. ___________________________________________________________ ????????-3.5G???20M??? http://cn.mail.yahoo.com From david at fubar.dk Fri Nov 17 18:08:59 2006 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 13:08:59 -0500 Subject: Plans for Fast User Switching Message-ID: <455DFABB.7090205@fubar.dk> Hi, I've created a Wiki page with some of the plans that the desktop team at Red Hat got wrt. making Fast User Switching just work http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/FastUserSwitching Feel free to edit the page with ideas / questions (probably better than asking on the mailing lists). Thanks. David From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 19:52:57 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:52:57 -0900 Subject: Plans for Fast User Switching In-Reply-To: <455DFABB.7090205@fubar.dk> References: <455DFABB.7090205@fubar.dk> Message-ID: <604aa7910611171152l5425b00emc2c9ef63de4fb535@mail.gmail.com> On 11/17/06, David Zeuthen wrote: > Hi, > > I've created a Wiki page with some of the plans that the desktop team at > Red Hat got wrt. making Fast User Switching just work > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/FastUserSwitching > > Feel free to edit the page with ideas / questions (probably better than > asking on the mailing lists). Thanks. thanks, I'll bookmark that right now. -jef"really really really really hates it when his wife uses his desktop session instead of doing a fast user switch"spaleta From cimi86 at alice.it Sat Nov 18 01:26:33 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 02:26:33 +0100 Subject: New Fedora Metacity for Murrine Message-ID: <20061118022633.41546114@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> After fixing last (for the moment) bugs in murrine (thx Matthias Clasen) I've done a simple metacity to fit the theme: http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4841/fedorametacityuh6.png Hope you like this. -- Cimi - Andrea Cimitan http://cimi.netsons.org From cimi86 at alice.it Sat Nov 18 12:31:37 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:31:37 +0100 Subject: New Fedora Theme (GTK2+Metacity) (Download) Message-ID: <20061118133137.0c7c85a2@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Here it is... Requires "Murrine Gtk2 Engine" version 0.31 otherwise you will have no gtk2 look. Please use with the added metacity. Notes: Under development... It's just a simple theme to see Murrine capabilities... To customize the look you can do in two ways: 1)Install Murrine configurator and edit with the GUI (recommended): http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php 2)If you want less roundness edit gtkrc of the theme and set roundness to 3 (clearlooks roundness) or 0,1 to a squared one. set glazestyle = 1 for a "curved" hilight on glaze instead flat ones. See attachments for the archive. Best Regards -- Cimi - Andrea Cimitan http://cimi.netsons.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MurrinaEcho.tar.gz Type: application/x-gzip Size: 5679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cimi86 at alice.it Sat Nov 18 12:38:25 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:38:25 +0100 Subject: New Fedora Theme (GTK2+Metacity) (Download, Fixed index.theme) Message-ID: <20061118133825.602aab61@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Here it is... Requires "Murrine Gtk2 Engine" version 0.31 otherwise you will have no gtk2 look. Please use with the added metacity. Notes: Under development... It's just a simple theme to see Murrine capabilities... To customize the look you can do in two ways: 1)Install Murrine configurator and edit with the GUI (recommended): http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php 2)If you want less roundness edit gtkrc of the theme and set roundness to 3 (clearlooks roundness) or 0,1 to a squared one. set glazestyle = 1 for a "curved" hilight on glaze instead flat ones. See attachments for the archive. Best Regards -- Cimi - Andrea Cimitan http://cimi.netsons.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MurrinaEcho.tar.gz Type: application/x-gzip Size: 5679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cimi86 at alice.it Sat Nov 18 12:35:31 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:35:31 +0100 Subject: New Fedora Theme (GTK2+Metacity) (Download) Message-ID: <20061118133531.755137a0@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Here it is... Requires "Murrine Gtk2 Engine" version 0.31 otherwise you will have no gtk2 look. Please use with the added metacity. Notes: Under development... It's just a simple theme to see Murrine capabilities... To customize the look you can do in two ways: 1)Install Murrine configurator and edit with the GUI (recommended): http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php 2)If you want less roundness edit gtkrc of the theme and set roundness to 3 (clearlooks roundness) or 0,1 to a squared one. set glazestyle = 1 for a "curved" hilight on glaze instead flat ones. See attachments for the archive. Best Regards -- Cimi - Andrea Cimitan http://cimi.netsons.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MurrinaEcho.tar.gz Type: application/x-gzip Size: 5676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sdl.web at gmail.com Sat Nov 18 13:16:25 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:16:25 +0000 Subject: New Fedora Theme (GTK2+Metacity) (Download, Fixed index.theme) References: <20061118133825.602aab61@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 18/11/06, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > Here it is... > Requires "Murrine Gtk2 Engine" version 0.31 otherwise you will have no > gtk2 look. > Please use with the added metacity. > > Notes: > Under development... It's just a simple theme to see Murrine > capabilities... > To customize the look you can do in two ways: > 1)Install Murrine configurator and edit with the GUI (recommended): > http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php > 2)If you want less roundness edit gtkrc of the theme and set roundness > to 3 (clearlooks roundness) or 0,1 to a squared one. > set glazestyle = 1 for a "curved" hilight on glaze instead flat ones. > > See attachments for the archive. > > Best Regards > -- > Cimi - Andrea Cimitan > http://cimi.netsons.org This is an excellent start point. But I don't have a good eyesight and it seems the color of the font is a bit too light for me. Is it black? -- Leo From cimi86 at alice.it Sat Nov 18 13:51:34 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea Cimitan) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:51:34 +0100 Subject: New Fedora Theme (GTK2+Metacity) (Download, Fixed index.theme) In-Reply-To: <20061118133825.602aab61@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> References: <20061118133825.602aab61@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <20061118145134.482e3f80@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Il giorno Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:38:25 +0100 Andrea Cimitan ha scritto: > Here it is... > Requires "Murrine Gtk2 Engine" version 0.31 otherwise you will have no > gtk2 look. > Please use with the added metacity. > > Notes: > Under development... It's just a simple theme to see Murrine > capabilities... > To customize the look you can do in two ways: > 1)Install Murrine configurator and edit with the GUI (recommended): > http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php > 2)If you want less roundness edit gtkrc of the theme and set roundness > to 3 (clearlooks roundness) or 0,1 to a squared one. > set glazestyle = 1 for a "curved" hilight on glaze instead flat ones. > > See attachments for the archive. > > Best Regards I'm stupid... reattached a working version... -- Cimi - Andrea Cimitan http://cimi.netsons.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MurrinaEcho.tar.gz Type: application/x-gzip Size: 5680 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Mon Nov 20 17:48:04 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:48:04 +0000 Subject: New Fedora Metacity for Murrine In-Reply-To: <20061118022633.41546114@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> References: <20061118022633.41546114@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <4561EA54.90308@glezos.com> O/H Andrea Cimitan ??????: > After fixing last (for the moment) bugs in murrine (thx > Matthias Clasen) I've done a simple metacity to fit the theme: > http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4841/fedorametacityuh6.png > > Hope you like this. Hi Andrea, the theme is very slick and pleasant. Thumbs-up! :) Some comments: * Put more colors than just blue, preferable some more-or-less complimentary than the ones used. * Increase contrast on the menu: the letters are not very readable. * Pressed buttons draw more attention than they should -- decrease contrast. * Selected list row has the same bg color as the alternate row (see songs 1, 2 in the list) * I think the list header should be a bit more dark to separate it from the list itself. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From david at lovesunix.net Mon Nov 20 23:33:51 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 00:33:51 +0100 Subject: New Fedora Theme (GTK2+Metacity) (Download, Fixed index.theme) In-Reply-To: <20061118145134.482e3f80@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> References: <20061118133825.602aab61@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <20061118145134.482e3f80@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <1164065631.4665.18.camel@dawkins> l?r, 18 11 2006 kl. 14:51 +0100, skrev Andrea Cimitan: > Il giorno Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:38:25 +0100 > Andrea Cimitan ha scritto: > > > Here it is... > > Requires "Murrine Gtk2 Engine" version 0.31 otherwise you will have no > > gtk2 look. > > Please use with the added metacity. > > > > Notes: > > Under development... It's just a simple theme to see Murrine > > capabilities... > > To customize the look you can do in two ways: > > 1)Install Murrine configurator and edit with the GUI (recommended): > > http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php > > 2)If you want less roundness edit gtkrc of the theme and set roundness > > to 3 (clearlooks roundness) or 0,1 to a squared one. > > set glazestyle = 1 for a "curved" hilight on glaze instead flat ones. > > > > See attachments for the archive. > > > > Best Regards > I'm stupid... reattached a working version... Okay, I've had time to install Murrine and test out the theme: - the default base color is very drape, seems dull and 90's - the menubar color is to dark which makes the menu titles hard to read. The same goes for the tooltips - The highlights looks very unnatural, maybe they should be gradiants (potential bad performance I know) or something - currently it just looks like every button is made up of 2 differently colored blocks. There's a lot of experimentation left to be done I guess - David -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel URL: From cimi86 at alice.it Tue Nov 21 18:34:57 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:34:57 +0100 Subject: New Fedora Theme (GTK2+Metacity) (Download, Fixed index.theme) In-Reply-To: <1164065631.4665.18.camel@dawkins> References: <20061118133825.602aab61@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <20061118145134.482e3f80@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1164065631.4665.18.camel@dawkins> Message-ID: <456346D1.3020000@alice.it> David Nielsen wrote: > l?r, 18 11 2006 kl. 14:51 +0100, skrev Andrea Cimitan: > >> Il giorno Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:38:25 +0100 >> Andrea Cimitan ha scritto: >> >> >>> Here it is... >>> Requires "Murrine Gtk2 Engine" version 0.31 otherwise you will have no >>> gtk2 look. >>> Please use with the added metacity. >>> >>> Notes: >>> Under development... It's just a simple theme to see Murrine >>> capabilities... >>> To customize the look you can do in two ways: >>> 1)Install Murrine configurator and edit with the GUI (recommended): >>> http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php >>> 2)If you want less roundness edit gtkrc of the theme and set roundness >>> to 3 (clearlooks roundness) or 0,1 to a squared one. >>> set glazestyle = 1 for a "curved" hilight on glaze instead flat ones. >>> >>> See attachments for the archive. >>> >>> Best Regards >>> >> I'm stupid... reattached a working version... >> > > Okay, I've had time to install Murrine and test out the theme: > > - the default base color is very drape, seems dull and 90's > I don't like fedora bluish color... but here they are > - the menubar color is to dark which makes the menu titles hard to read. > The same goes for the tooltips > yes it can be fixed but people like it > - The highlights looks very unnatural, maybe they should be gradiants > (potential bad performance I know) or something - currently it just > looks like every button is made up of 2 differently colored blocks. > > you can set glazestyle = 2 and roundness = 3 and feel a better one... i think with those new settings the theme looks a few better > There's a lot of experimentation left to be done I guess > > Why don't you write your own theme? I can't provide all the work by myself... I'm not a real robot ^^ > - David > From cimi86 at alice.it Tue Nov 21 18:38:02 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:38:02 +0100 Subject: New Fedora Metacity for Murrine In-Reply-To: <4561EA54.90308@glezos.com> References: <20061118022633.41546114@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <4561EA54.90308@glezos.com> Message-ID: <4563478A.6010904@alice.it> Dimitris Glezos wrote: > O/H Andrea Cimitan ??????: > >> After fixing last (for the moment) bugs in murrine (thx >> Matthias Clasen) I've done a simple metacity to fit the theme: >> http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4841/fedorametacityuh6.png >> >> Hope you like this. >> > > Hi Andrea, > > the theme is very slick and pleasant. Thumbs-up! :) > > Some comments: > > * Put more colors than just blue, preferable some more-or-less complimentary > than the ones used. > I hate fedora bluish color... but i've done the theme just blue to accomply fedora "style"? > * Increase contrast on the menu: the letters are not very readable. > Decrease by yourself and post the changes > * Pressed buttons draw more attention than they should -- decrease contrast. > Decrease by yourself and post the changes > * Selected list row has the same bg color as the alternate row (see songs 1, 2 > in the list) > Improve by yourself and post the changes > * I think the list header should be a bit more dark to separate it from the > list itself. > > Improve by yourself and post the changes > -d > > Best Regards Cimi From david at lovesunix.net Tue Nov 21 18:02:34 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:02:34 +0100 Subject: New Fedora Metacity for Murrine In-Reply-To: <4563478A.6010904@alice.it> References: <20061118022633.41546114@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <4561EA54.90308@glezos.com> <4563478A.6010904@alice.it> Message-ID: <1164132154.11022.5.camel@dawkins> tir, 21 11 2006 kl. 19:38 +0100, skrev Andrea: > Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > O/H Andrea Cimitan ??????: > > > >> After fixing last (for the moment) bugs in murrine (thx > >> Matthias Clasen) I've done a simple metacity to fit the theme: > >> http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4841/fedorametacityuh6.png > >> > >> Hope you like this. > >> > > > > Hi Andrea, > > > > the theme is very slick and pleasant. Thumbs-up! :) > > > > Some comments: > > > > * Put more colors than just blue, preferable some more-or-less complimentary > > than the ones used. > > > I hate fedora bluish color... but i've done the theme just blue to > accomply fedora "style"? > > * Increase contrast on the menu: the letters are not very readable. > > > Decrease by yourself and post the changes > > * Pressed buttons draw more attention than they should -- decrease contrast. > > > Decrease by yourself and post the changes > > > * Selected list row has the same bg color as the alternate row (see songs 1, 2 > > in the list) > > > Improve by yourself and post the changes > > > * I think the list header should be a bit more dark to separate it from the > > list itself. > > > > > Improve by yourself and post the changes > > -d > > That's of course one way to take constructive criticism, you know we are trying to help here by providing input. - David -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel URL: From cimi86 at alice.it Tue Nov 21 19:15:32 2006 From: cimi86 at alice.it (Andrea) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:15:32 +0100 Subject: New Fedora Metacity for Murrine In-Reply-To: <1164132154.11022.5.camel@dawkins> References: <20061118022633.41546114@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <4561EA54.90308@glezos.com> <4563478A.6010904@alice.it> <1164132154.11022.5.camel@dawkins> Message-ID: <45635054.5060203@alice.it> David Nielsen wrote: > tir, 21 11 2006 kl. 19:38 +0100, skrev Andrea: > >> Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> >>> O/H Andrea Cimitan ??????: >>> >>> >>>> After fixing last (for the moment) bugs in murrine (thx >>>> Matthias Clasen) I've done a simple metacity to fit the theme: >>>> http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4841/fedorametacityuh6.png >>>> >>>> Hope you like this. >>>> >>>> >>> Hi Andrea, >>> >>> the theme is very slick and pleasant. Thumbs-up! :) >>> >>> Some comments: >>> >>> * Put more colors than just blue, preferable some more-or-less complimentary >>> than the ones used. >>> >>> >> I hate fedora bluish color... but i've done the theme just blue to >> accomply fedora "style"? >> >>> * Increase contrast on the menu: the letters are not very readable. >>> >>> >> Decrease by yourself and post the changes >> >>> * Pressed buttons draw more attention than they should -- decrease contrast. >>> >>> >> Decrease by yourself and post the changes >> >> >>> * Selected list row has the same bg color as the alternate row (see songs 1, 2 >>> in the list) >>> >>> >> Improve by yourself and post the changes >> >> >>> * I think the list header should be a bit more dark to separate it from the >>> list itself. >>> >>> >>> >> Improve by yourself and post the changes >> >>> -d >>> >>> > > That's of course one way to take constructive criticism, you know we are > trying to help here by providing input. > > - David > Where is the problem in my words? I think he can simply edit the gtkrc and post here the changes... why not? From sdl.web at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 23:43:02 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:43:02 +0000 Subject: New Fedora Theme (GTK2+Metacity) (Download, Fixed index.theme) References: <20061118133825.602aab61@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <20061118145134.482e3f80@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> <1164065631.4665.18.camel@dawkins> Message-ID: On Mon, 20/11/06, David Nielsen wrote: > Okay, I've had time to install Murrine and test out the theme: > I have submitted gtk-murrine-engine to be include in extras. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=215224 -- Leo From sdl.web at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 15:00:39 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:00:39 +0000 Subject: New Fedora Theme (GTK2+Metacity) (Download, Fixed index.theme) References: <20061118133825.602aab61@hydra.cimi.homelinux.net> Message-ID: Dear Andrea, On Saturday, 18 Nov 2006, Andrea Cimitan wrote: > Here it is... > Requires "Murrine Gtk2 Engine" version 0.31 otherwise you will have no > gtk2 look. > Please use with the added metacity. > > Notes: > Under development... It's just a simple theme to see Murrine > capabilities... > To customize the look you can do in two ways: > 1)Install Murrine configurator and edit with the GUI (recommended): > http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php > 2)If you want less roundness edit gtkrc of the theme and set roundness > to 3 (clearlooks roundness) or 0,1 to a squared one. > set glazestyle = 1 for a "curved" hilight on glaze instead flat ones. > > See attachments for the archive. > > Best Regards > -- > Cimi - Andrea Cimitan > http://cimi.netsons.org Thank you very much for providing this theme. Would you clarify these questions so that the discussion might be continued? - Are you willing to work on improving this theme according to the feedback from list users? - Or, would you like someone else to work on this as a starting point with your technical support? Thanks again for your support of Fedora. -- Leo sdl Dot web AT gmail DOT com From email at pfennigsolutions.de Mon Nov 27 17:01:13 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:01:13 +0100 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project Message-ID: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> Hi all, I would like to take the chance to try to convince on a last attempt the Fedora project to change its path. The problem starts if you try to find the right list to post such an article. There seems to be no list for discussing the Fedora project!? There are the more or less readonly or readprotected lists, there is a general fedora-list, one for martketing,... - This list is the best guess I could make although I assume desktop means desktop enviroment. Anyway, I just want to post this now. My general criticism is that Fedora is not a real community project. This can clearly be seen by the mailing list structure (as the future of Fedora can not really be discussed by the users). Fedora has stated to be a meritocracy ( http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ#head-b9eb81965c2ef7b97979c8b3a9ba587b52da43c9 ). There is a system of Ambassadors. Different from Ubuntu one can say that it is generally not wanted that users take the distribution into their own hands and make their own marketing. Who is ambassador? "Ambassadors program is a meritocracy, so the ones who have shown that they are actively doing the right thing will be best candidates." The basic principle in Fedora is distrusting the users. Fedora is affraind that users would do marketing or do other things that hurt the organisation. The strange thing is that Fedora initially was ment to be a community project. If one would take this approach seriously we would have to start a community project for the community project, as Fedora contains of free software and take the power away from Fedora Foundations and Boards. I can not think of anything more stupid as to create a community project and than to try to destroy the community by separating them into different categories - also stating officially a meritocracy as wanted status. Where as community and meritocracy can not be combined. In the book "wisdom of the crowds" one can learn how intelligent masses can be. Fedora has managed to keep the positive influense of the crowds out effectively. Some measures I (again) like to criticize are: The wiki policies: * I think Fedora project is more or less the only wiki of all oepn source projects which does not allow anonymous contributions nor contributions by simple registered users. * Who every wants to contribute has to give Red Hat non-exclusive rights to relicense his or her content * Fedora chose to use the OPL which is deprecated by the invenstors of the license and has a bad reputation. Choosing this license does mean that content can neither be shared with other documentations or the Wikipedia who whose the GFDL nor with any new projects that use the successor licenses of OPL (Creative Commons). This in fact means that no one can use the content of fedoraproject.org in other projects, nor does anybody can import any conten from orher projects to fedoraproject org. So this means redundancy, that means less sharing. * The action that had taken place and the decision where intransparent and not discussed in the wiki, it was expected that people would read the mailing lists. On the marketing approach I think Fedora has a very hard job against Ubuntu and that is not just because Ubuntu is giving live medias for free but also because it is unwanted that users show activity if they do not plan to become official ambassadors. This is why I have installed Ubuntu on many machines for private users although I myself like to use Fedora much more. My guess is that Fedora could easily have 10 or 20 times more users if it would change policy. What I constantly asking myself is why Fedora does not want to eb successful? Do such policies come from Red Hat where one is used to exclude people because of company policy? I think today in distributions or software is is all about communitities, the software itself, the companies do not matter. The software or distributions who gets the most attention and love from the community will succeed. Users and developers tend to switch their favourite software more and more often, so most people will not have one distribution that they advocate. They advicate what they use and like. I can also talk about myself: I would never become an official Ambassador of any distribution but I love to do all for the software I really like. Fedora does not trust people like me. Why should I trust Fedora? Why should I use Fedora? Right now I use it because it is technically the best Linux distro that I know. The community in Germany really is quasi non-existent and I am not allowed to make small corrections to the Fedora wiki that I know are there for months (and I do not want to search for anybody who has signed the CLA to inform him), That is just plain stupid. Does Fedora Board want people to create a community project for Fedora? Does this make any sense? I mean Fedora was made out of Red Hat to allow easier contribution (as one goal) - actually I do not think it is easier to contribute to Fedora now as to contribute to RHEL. Fedora is very old school from its approach, distrusting its own users, not letting lose of control,... I think that it is sad to see such a good distribution sunken in organisational congealment. I think a huge switch in policy needs to be made. I know many Fedora users and Ex-Fedora users think the same. Maybe Fedora gets a little push from Novell that acts even more stupid, but in the long run I'd like to see Fedora moving differently And: No, I don't want to be an Ambassador, I like to see less Meritocracy and more Anarchy to revive Fedora. In Germany Red Hat traditionally was weak and in my Linux group in my home town no one uses it and I also have never met anybody who uses it as well. And I really can not stand behind Fedora and recommend users to use it, till all those things will not be cleared up. I wanted to get this post out for months and like to see if things will change or at least are discussed. Thilo see also http://vinci.wordpress.com/2006/06/06/frustrated-about-fedora-policies/ -- Thilo Pfennig PfennigSolutions - Wiki-Systeme http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ From mattdm at mattdm.org Mon Nov 27 17:15:34 2006 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:15:34 -0500 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <20061127171534.GA6416@jadzia.bu.edu> On Mon, Nov 27, 2006 at 06:01:13PM +0100, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > There are the more or less readonly or readprotected lists, there is a > general fedora-list, one for martketing,... - This list is the best You have to subscribe to the lists to post, yes. > guess I could make although I assume desktop means desktop enviroment. > Anyway, I just want to post this now. Okay. > My general criticism is that Fedora is not a real community project. Depends on how you define those terms. > This can clearly be seen by the mailing list structure (as the future of > Fedora can not really be discussed by the users). Fedora has stated to > be a meritocracy ( Users can discuss all they want (and certainly do). You want to influence what happens, start *doing*. Meritocracy means exactly that. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From sdl.web at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 20:56:30 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:56:30 +0000 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: On Monday, 27 Nov 2006, Thilo Pfennig wrote: [...] > My general criticism is that Fedora is not a real community project. > This can clearly be seen by the mailing list structure (as the future of > Fedora can not really be discussed by the users). Fedora has stated to > be a meritocracy ( > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ#head-b9eb81965c2ef7b97979c8b3a9ba587b52da43c9 > ). There is a system of Ambassadors. Different from Ubuntu one can say > that it is generally not wanted that users take the distribution into > their own hands and make their own marketing. Who is ambassador? > "Ambassadors program is a meritocracy, so the ones who have shown that > they are actively doing the right thing will be best candidates." > You might be happy to know that Fedorasummit? will do to the future of Fedora. Footnotes: ? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit?highlight=%28fedorasummit%29 -- Leo From email at pfennigsolutions.de Mon Nov 27 21:04:12 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:04:12 +0100 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> Leo schrieb: > You might be happy to know that Fedorasummit? will do to the future of > Fedora. > > Footnotes: > ? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit?highlight=%28fedorasummit%29 > If things change, good. I will not be able to travel to USA, though to attend. Thilo From sdl.web at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 21:26:47 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 21:26:47 +0000 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: On Monday, 27 Nov 2006, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Leo schrieb: >> You might be happy to know that Fedorasummit? will do to the future of >> Fedora. >> >> Footnotes: >> ? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit?highlight=%28fedorasummit%29 >> > > If things change, good. I will not be able to travel to USA, though to > attend. > The summit has ended. That pages are something the developers trying to do for Fedora 7. There is no separation of core and extras any more. -- Leo From riel at redhat.com Mon Nov 27 21:58:35 2006 From: riel at redhat.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:58:35 -0500 Subject: (fonts) wikipedia challenge Message-ID: <456B5F8B.8050103@redhat.com> It looks like with all the fonts from FC6 and Fedora Extras, I can display almost every font from http://wikipedia.org/ Almost! There still appear to be 4 fonts missing from Fedora that are used on the wikipedia front page. We also lack some glyphs in for example the Canadian Aboriginal Syllable, as used by the Inuit and the Cree (and others?). I remember when Linux had no truetype fonts and almost no special fonts (10 years ago), so I am impressed that we have gotten this far. Right now I'm at that "so close, yet so far" frustrating feeling. Does anybody know if there are freely redistributable fonts available that would allow us to render the remaining languages out of the box? Is anybody willing to help search? Is this a worthy goal for Fedora Linux 7? :) -- Politics is the struggle between those who want to make their country the best in the world, and those who believe it already is. Each group calls the other unpatriotic. From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Mon Nov 27 23:52:53 2006 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:52:53 +0100 Subject: (fonts) wikipedia challenge In-Reply-To: <456B5F8B.8050103@redhat.com> References: <456B5F8B.8050103@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1164671574.3195.70.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le lundi 27 novembre 2006 ? 16:58 -0500, Rik van Riel a ?crit : > It looks like with all the fonts from FC6 and Fedora Extras, I > can display almost every font from http://wikipedia.org/ > > Almost! There still appear to be 4 fonts missing from Fedora > that are used on the wikipedia front page. We also lack some > glyphs in for example the Canadian Aboriginal Syllable, as > used by the Inuit and the Cree (and others?). I think some of those were added to dejavu lately (the 2.12 packages in FE devel). At least there was some noise about canadian strange stuff on the irc channel, don't remember if it was merged or complete yet. > Does anybody know if there are freely redistributable fonts > available that would allow us to render the remaining languages > out of the box? Please no, every new font adds a new latin/symbol block, makes the font lists in apps longer, subtly conflits in size/weight with others, and generally makes user life miserable. (I know this is anathema for some) but the right long term solution is to create several font families with large encoding coverage, and let font tools/libs cherry pick the parts each users need, instead of having a multiple-source/style patchwork strategy (which in the end always produces patchwork-like results). There is no such thing as a langage never used in conjunction with others nowadays. If you know of some langage communities that feel left out, please orient them to one of the big FLOSS projects out there. They can help themselves and the community in many ways : ? identify code blocks FLOSS users most care about (this is the easy part but relies 100% on someone else doing the work) https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8420 ? review and comment on existing glyphs (a foreign designer can create glyphs based on its perception of existing fonts or text pictures, but only native users can identify the small variations that separate "just right" glyphs from "weird and clumsy" ones). This work is essential, does not require technical proficiency but needs motivated and patient reviewers. (http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=36942882 as an example of such a review, unfortunately the most interesting part was not archived by sf, but it's quoted in part in the replies). Another good review is there https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8145 ? make local designers aware of the FLOSS context, release existing fonts under a FLOSS license (so someone can salvage them) or (better) have them join/work with an existing team (http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=30877284&forum_id=40874) Sometimes there are local designers available but they are not confortable working in english/irc/fontforge, so they need other people to serve as proxy between them and international FLOSS teams. ? learn to design glyphs. This is not impossible, some of dejavu current designers had never done any font-related work before joining the project. I've tried to push in FE the most important tools for font work, and there are plenty easy glyphs left for beginners to try their hand on. It does require some motivation and available free time > Is anybody willing to help search? > > Is this a worthy goal for Fedora Linux 7? :) Actually we are beginning to see the fruits of the projects which set out creating large coverage fonts several years ago. They didn't get there in one Fedora release. They won't finish their work in one Fedora release. But in the end it's a hell a lot more efficient than fishing dead redistributable fonts no one is there to complete or fix. The unicode guys are still defining new glyphs, and apps get smarter at exposing them. Suddenly glyphs few people cared about become important (you'd be surprised how even local european languages need a lot more than plain ascii these days). A font without a designer team available to plug the coverage holes (remember ?) will become irrelevant mid-term, even if we can redistribute it. It's not really worth the migration pain to stuff Fedora with those. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot From riel at redhat.com Tue Nov 28 00:18:01 2006 From: riel at redhat.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:18:01 -0500 Subject: (fonts) wikipedia challenge In-Reply-To: <1164671574.3195.70.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <456B5F8B.8050103@redhat.com> <1164671574.3195.70.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <456B8039.7020300@redhat.com> Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le lundi 27 novembre 2006 ? 16:58 -0500, Rik van Riel a ?crit : >> It looks like with all the fonts from FC6 and Fedora Extras, I >> can display almost every font from http://wikipedia.org/ >> >> Almost! There still appear to be 4 fonts missing from Fedora >> that are used on the wikipedia front page. We also lack some >> glyphs in for example the Canadian Aboriginal Syllable, as >> used by the Inuit and the Cree (and others?). > > I think some of those were added to dejavu lately (the 2.12 packages in > FE devel). At least there was some noise about canadian strange stuff on > the irc channel, don't remember if it was merged or complete yet. Ohhhhhh. http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/ looks good indeed. I simply did a yum search for "fonts" and installed every package whose name began with fonts- ... now I have a lot more. It looks like improving dejavu is the way to go, indeed. -- Politics is the struggle between those who want to make their country the best in the world, and those who believe it already is. Each group calls the other unpatriotic. From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Tue Nov 28 07:49:57 2006 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:49:57 +0100 Subject: (fonts) wikipedia challenge In-Reply-To: <456B8039.7020300@redhat.com> References: <456B5F8B.8050103@redhat.com> <1164671574.3195.70.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <456B8039.7020300@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1164700209.16317.1.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le lundi 27 novembre 2006 ? 19:18 -0500, Rik van Riel a ?crit : > Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le lundi 27 novembre 2006 ? 16:58 -0500, Rik van Riel a ?crit : > >> It looks like with all the fonts from FC6 and Fedora Extras, I > >> can display almost every font from http://wikipedia.org/ > >> > >> Almost! There still appear to be 4 fonts missing from Fedora > >> that are used on the wikipedia front page. We also lack some > >> glyphs in for example the Canadian Aboriginal Syllable, as > >> used by the Inuit and the Cree (and others?). > > > > I think some of those were added to dejavu lately (the 2.12 packages in > > FE devel). At least there was some noise about canadian strange stuff on > > the irc channel, don't remember if it was merged or complete yet. > > Ohhhhhh. http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/ looks good indeed. > > I simply did a yum search for "fonts" and installed every > package whose name began with fonts- ... now I have a lot > more. Don't forget the large pool of packages that use the -fonts suffix convention (for historical reasons, consistency with other distributions/repositories, because of subpackaging, or just to follow natural langage order) -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Nov 28 16:24:50 2006 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:24:50 +0100 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <456C62D2.9040904@leemhuis.info> Thilo Pfennig schrieb: > > I would like to take the chance to try to convince on a last attempt the > Fedora project to change its path. The problem starts if you try to find > the right list to post such an article. There seems to be no list for > discussing the Fedora project!? Well, there are to many lists these days and here it there is a bit chaos. This will probably cleaned up sooner or later (it was discussed on fedora-advisory-board slightly already). Someone just has to work out a scheme what to do, but nobody stepped up to work out something in detailed yet. > There are the more or less readonly or readprotected lists, Only fedora-advisory and fedora-maintainers have a readonly variants IIRC. Most other lists are open iirc. > there is a > general fedora-list, one for martketing,... - This list is the best > guess I could make although I assume desktop means desktop enviroment. > Anyway, I just want to post this now. fedora-devel would have been the better place probably. I'd suggest you send it there again. > My general criticism is that Fedora is not a real community project. > This can clearly be seen by the mailing list structure (as the future of > Fedora can not really be discussed by the users). Fedora has stated to > be a meritocracy ( > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ#head-b9eb81965c2ef7b97979c8b3a9ba587b52da43c9 > ). There is a system of Ambassadors. Different from Ubuntu one can say > that it is generally not wanted that users take the distribution into > their own hands and make their own marketing. Who is ambassador? > "Ambassadors program is a meritocracy, so the ones who have shown that > they are actively doing the right thing will be best candidates." There is work underdone to change this -- your were pointed to the Summit-Pages already. A lot will change and we can need any help with it. > [...] CU thl From sdl.web at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 17:39:03 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:39:03 +0000 Subject: Icon Theme Message-ID: Hi there, The Tango project has become the one true style guide for free software theming. A few heavy weight apps such as gnome, inkscape, gimp and openoffice.org are or will be using tango style icons. The project's developers are of high profile and the quality of the icons is without doubt the best. I followed a few Tango_Fridays? in irc #tango and was much impressed. As you can see in Tango_Fridays?, more and more upstream apps will be adopting their icons. Today I visited the EchoDevelopment? after a few months, my feeling was not good. But my biggest concerns is that although Echo is using tango naming specs, its style (perspective, color palette etc) is different. This will put Fedora in a situation as Bluecurve does - inconsistency across the desktop. Inconsistency will definitely compromise usability. So what's the way out? Changing Echo to fit into the universe of tango style icons? Put Echo on hold and use tango for Fedora 7? Please comment. Thank you! Footnotes: ? http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Fridays ? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/EchoDevelopment?highlight=%28echo%29 -- Leo From david at lovesunix.net Tue Nov 28 18:41:25 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:41:25 +0100 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> Leo skrev: > Hi there, > > The Tango project has become the one true style guide for free > software theming. A few heavy weight apps such as gnome, inkscape, > gimp and openoffice.org are or will be using tango style icons. The > project's developers are of high profile and the quality of the icons > is without doubt the best. I followed a few Tango_Fridays? in irc > #tango and was much impressed. As you can see in Tango_Fridays?, more > and more upstream apps will be adopting their icons. > > Today I visited the EchoDevelopment? after a few months, my feeling > was not good. But my biggest concerns is that although Echo is using > tango naming specs, its style (perspective, color palette etc) is > different. This will put Fedora in a situation as Bluecurve does - > inconsistency across the desktop. Inconsistency will definitely > compromise usability. > > So what's the way out? Changing Echo to fit into the universe of tango > style icons? Put Echo on hold and use tango for Fedora 7? Please > comment. > > Thank you! > > Footnotes: > ? http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Fridays > ? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/EchoDevelopment?highlight=%28echo%29 > I've tried convincing the art team of Tangos superior design, consistency, usability, accessibility and progress for a while now, it hasn't really brought me any good fortune, infact I think the term used was "trolling". One problem we are sure to encounter though is that Tango has wide upstream acceptance, The gimp, Jokosher and many other fine existing and upcoming big FLOSS projects uses and relies on Tango. As many of these, the biggest two being the GIMP and OpenOffice, aren't readily themeable via standard means, it will mean a lot of work for the art team to get the same coverage not to mention cooperation with the packagers (not an issue after the core/extras merge I wonder?) and if they don't manage that it means inconsistency for the users which is all together not desirable. Tango is available from Extras so you can install it, you will however not get as positive an experience as you could have since in some ways the rest of the Echo theme clashs stylistically with Tango and given that it's mighty hard to change the entire artwork set end to end the result is less pleasing that it could be desired. That being said, the correct place to debate such issues is probably the fedora-art list. - David Nielsen From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Nov 28 18:56:26 2006 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:56:26 -0500 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> References: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> Message-ID: <1164740186.29878.5.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 19:41 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > Tango is available from Extras so you can install it, you will however > not get as positive an experience as you could have since in some ways > the rest of the Echo theme clashs stylistically with Tango and given > that it's mighty hard to change the entire artwork set end to end the > result is less pleasing that it could be desired. The main point of the icon-naming side of the tango push is to make it a more feasible task to do a complete set of icons, by reducing the overall number of icons. From johnp at redhat.com Tue Nov 28 19:01:33 2006 From: johnp at redhat.com (John (J5) Palmieri) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:01:33 -0500 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1164740493.2992.60.camel@phuket> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 17:39 +0000, Leo wrote: > Hi there, > > The Tango project has become the one true style guide for free > software theming. That is a bold statement. > A few heavy weight apps such as gnome, inkscape, > gimp and openoffice.org are or will be using tango style icons. The > project's developers are of high profile and the quality of the icons > is without doubt the best. I can argue that the quality is not the best but it is all a matter of tastes and this is a divisive argument that no one can win. The real problem I have with Tango is it ties the hands of the artists to this one style and then the proponents go around saying "shame on you for doing something different, this is the style the whole community has chosen" which is in fact not the case. KDE for instance has their Oxygen style which IMHO allows a bit more artistic license. > I followed a few Tango_Fridays? in irc > #tango and was much impressed. As you can see in Tango_Fridays?, more > and more upstream apps will be adopting their icons. This is a better argument for going with Tango but not completely compelling. > Today I visited the EchoDevelopment? after a few months, my feeling > was not good. But my biggest concerns is that although Echo is using > tango naming specs, its style (perspective, color palette etc) is > different. This will put Fedora in a situation as Bluecurve does - > inconsistency across the desktop. Inconsistency will definitely > compromise usability. Echo isn't done yet. I think it is too early to tell. This argument is like saying hey, lets not try anything new and just accept whatever people throw us. If in the end Tango turns out the way to go I'm not ruling it out but I like the direction Echo has taken and perhaps there will be ways to meld the two. > So what's the way out? Changing Echo to fit into the universe of tango > style icons? Put Echo on hold and use tango for Fedora 7? Please > comment. Standards for standards sake is not the way to go. I think we move forward and see where things fall. If there is a team who wants to experiment with making Echo fit with Tango that is cool. If there is a team that wants to experiment with theming Tango to feel for Fedoraish that is cool too. Personally I think we should have had competing styles from the get go. Free markets and all. -- John (J5) Palmieri From david at lovesunix.net Tue Nov 28 19:09:56 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:09:56 +0100 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: <1164740186.29878.5.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> <1164740186.29878.5.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <456C8984.8000607@lovesunix.net> Matthias Clasen skrev: > On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 19:41 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > > >> Tango is available from Extras so you can install it, you will however >> not get as positive an experience as you could have since in some ways >> the rest of the Echo theme clashs stylistically with Tango and given >> that it's mighty hard to change the entire artwork set end to end the >> result is less pleasing that it could be desired. >> > > The main point of the icon-naming side of the tango push is to make it > a more feasible task to do a complete set of icons, by reducing the > overall number of icons Great, now when does Firefox, Thunderbird, The GIMP, Gaim and OpenOffice.org plan to support this scheme? Before they do (and I have no doubt that they will eventually but it might take years) this is still a perfectly valid concern, especially since all but one of those apps are in our default desktop. I fully support the naming effort but it's not there yet so we need to be careful, we should also leverage the great work that has already been done by some of the FLOSS communitys finest artists, not to mention the large team they have already built to work on the Tango project. - David From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Nov 28 19:13:33 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:43:33 +0530 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: <456C8984.8000607@lovesunix.net> References: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> <1164740186.29878.5.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <456C8984.8000607@lovesunix.net> Message-ID: <456C8A5D.6050406@fedoraproject.org> David Nielsen wrote: >> The main point of the icon-naming side of the tango push is to make it >> a more feasible task to do a complete set of icons, by reducing the >> overall number of icons > Great, now when does Firefox, Thunderbird, The GIMP, Gaim and > OpenOffice.org plan to support this scheme? Before they do (and I have > no doubt that they will eventually but it might take years) this is > still a perfectly valid concern, especially since all but one of those > apps are in our default desktop. It is a valid concern, yes but forcing one theme style is not the way to move ahead. It is very important that themes should be easily replaceable all across the desktop environment and applications. If not, thats a bug and should not used as a argument to adopt one theme. > > I fully support the naming effort but it's not there yet so we need to > be careful, we should also leverage the great work that has already been > done by some of the FLOSS communitys finest artists, not to mention the > large team they have already built to work on the Tango project. If the Fedora art team wants to move ahead and adopt a different style, they should be encouraged and allowed to do that. Rahul From duffy at redhat.com Tue Nov 28 20:07:54 2006 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:07:54 -0500 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: <456C8A5D.6050406@fedoraproject.org> References: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> <1164740186.29878.5.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <456C8984.8000607@lovesunix.net> <456C8A5D.6050406@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <456C971A.8080205@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > David Nielsen wrote: >>> Before they do (and I have >> no doubt that they will eventually but it might take years) this is >> still a perfectly valid concern, especially since all but one of those >> apps are in our default desktop. > > It is a valid concern, yes but forcing one theme style is not the way to > move ahead. It is very important that themes should be easily > replaceable all across the desktop environment and applications. If not, > thats a bug and should not used as a argument to adopt one theme. +1 >> I fully support the naming effort but it's not there yet so we need to >> be careful, we should also leverage the great work that has already >> been done by some of the FLOSS communitys finest artists, not to >> mention the large team they have already built to work on the Tango >> project. > > If the Fedora art team wants to move ahead and adopt a different style, > they should be encouraged and allowed to do that. This was a big point brought up at the GNOME Boston Summit a few weeks ago, and Andy Fitzsimon brought a really interesting idea to the table: http://live.gnome.org/AwesomeArtShit ('SVG Crack' section) Take a look at the monitor variations on the right. Same SVG, graphics generated by applying different CSS to the SVG. Basically we could use the Tango SVGs as an 'upstream' and using stylesheets apply different transformations to the Tango SVGs to create whichever look we like. In cases where we want to change the icon entirely (e.g. for the Trash icon) we can override it in the icon theme. Andy I'm sure can explain more of the technical details behind this. But I feel this is a better use of time and resources - developing a look via stylesheet applied to upstream icons - rather than starting from scratch. We'll still be able to have a distinct visual identity for Fedora, we'll still be able to override particular icons from upstream if we feel the need, but! We'll *also* be able to join in the upstream Tango effort and add our resources to the already pretty large pool of talent in the Tango team and help upstream as well as get we would like done as well. The Fedora art folks can join the wider FOSS art community and learn from and interact with many of the seasoned pros there. Unfortunately, this would mean some manual grunt work in arranging the already-existing Tango icons, some minor modifications to Inkscape to make it easier to make these mods (I think probably the equivalent would be adding classes to html elements to apply a stylesheet.) Overall though I think it's an awesome idea, it solves a lot of problems, it's do-able, and it's very innovative and cool! There is a lot of power in SVG we haven't taken advantage of yet and this would be a great way for Fedora to lead the way! ~m From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Nov 28 20:10:12 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 01:40:12 +0530 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> Leo wrote: > On Monday, 27 Nov 2006, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > >> Leo schrieb: >>> You might be happy to know that Fedorasummit? will do to the future of >>> Fedora. >>> >>> Footnotes: >>> ? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit?highlight=%28fedorasummit%29 >>> >> If things change, good. I will not be able to travel to USA, though to >> attend. >> > > The summit has ended. That pages are something the developers trying > to do for Fedora 7. There is no separation of core and extras any > more. Also there was people phoning in and participating via irc channel at #fedora-summit, the logs of which are available in the wiki. You can also look at proposals being discussed currently and get involved. So participation and contributions are not restricted to people with the ability to travel to the meeting place. Rahul From eli at barzilay.org Tue Nov 28 20:22:36 2006 From: eli at barzilay.org (Eli Barzilay) Date: 28 Nov 2006 15:22:36 -0500 Subject: Multiple gnome sessions/panels on console and on VNC Message-ID: Starting gnome-session in a VNC session is impossible if it's already running on the console. I can run gnome-panel on the VNC session, but that has lots of problems -- for example, the desktop switcher refuses to appear in the VNC session, and a panel that I have on the bottom-right corner of the (1024x768) screen in the VNC session makes the same panel on the (much bigger) console screen hop over to the same position which is now in the middle of the screen. I've even gave up on any useful corner panel (reverted to the ancient Sawfish pager thingy instead) -- and there are still an annoying problem: every time the VNC session is closed, the panel is trying to resurrect itself on the console, which leads to an error dialog that there's a pannel there allready -- and requires clicking OK about 120 times for it to go away. Is there any sane way to use Gnome on both my console and a separate VNC session? (I don't believe that I'm the only one left that is crazy enough to have two sessions running on a single machine...) -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://www.barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! From david at lovesunix.net Tue Nov 28 21:33:25 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:33:25 +0100 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: <456C8A5D.6050406@fedoraproject.org> References: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> <1164740186.29878.5.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <456C8984.8000607@lovesunix.net> <456C8A5D.6050406@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <456CAB25.6010500@lovesunix.net> Rahul Sundaram skrev: > David Nielsen wrote: >>> The main point of the icon-naming side of the tango push is to make it >>> a more feasible task to do a complete set of icons, by reducing the >>> overall number of icons >> Great, now when does Firefox, Thunderbird, The GIMP, Gaim and >> OpenOffice.org plan to support this scheme? Before they do (and I >> have no doubt that they will eventually but it might take years) this >> is still a perfectly valid concern, especially since all but one of >> those apps are in our default desktop. > > It is a valid concern, yes but forcing one theme style is not the way > to move ahead. It is very important that themes should be easily > replaceable all across the desktop environment and applications. If > not, thats a bug and should not used as a argument to adopt one theme. Having a default is forcing a setting on the users, Echo is no less forcing a style on our users than Tango is. The question is do we want to force a good setting or a bad setting on our users. Tango has a vibrant developer community, is widely adopted, is vetted for usability, accessibility and style. Echo sadly has issues, some of which I pointed out months ago which are still not addressed. I would feel more comfortable with a real debate as to which default we are going to have for the forseeable future instead of handwaving about standards which have yet to be universally adopted (after which the art team will have a much easier job and the users a better experience whatever the art team decides to do). I know it's hard to express an opinion on a subject like this without stepping on some toes, that is not the intend, but Echo is simply not a good nor a logical choice currently. The only unifying option we have is Tango. Given that it is so hard currently to change the entire look of the distro (not just icons might you) do we want the default to be as good as it can be? I would be much more comfortable with a widely adopted default now, given that Fedora moves quickly, once the standards we require are adopted and Echo matures, it can be dropped in place - for the time being however that is simply not possible, all idealism aside. This is ultimately about the user experience, I fear that at it's present level and that of the forseeable future Echo will not be able to provide the best possible experince, the art team is perfectly welcome to prove me wrong and have a consistent, vetted theme ready based on Echo ready for FC7. I doubt they can make that deadline especially given that they would have to cover applications which current are not under the naming standards, even big ones like OpenOffice. This all aside the fact that Tango is a damn fine piece of work, it has great usability testing, it's accessibility friendly, wide adoption and a development pace that is out of this world. I know at least this about Echo, in the months I've followed it's development, it still has many issues like widely inconsistent emblem use (try looking at the indication for new just for a quick example) - I have tried pointing this out but nothing has happened and sadly I am not skilled enough to fix it myself only to spot it. >> >> I fully support the naming effort but it's not there yet so we need >> to be careful, we should also leverage the great work that has >> already been done by some of the FLOSS communitys finest artists, not >> to mention the large team they have already built to work on the >> Tango project. > > If the Fedora art team wants to move ahead and adopt a different > style, they should be encouraged and allowed to do that. > Nowhere did I tell the art team what they could do with their sparetime, however I plea Fedora as a whole to pick the best possible defaults for any given release, realistically Echo isn't it yet.. some day it might be. My proposal is this, we create the missing bits of artwork in Tango (anaconda, rhgb, backgrounds, etc.) and use that for FC7. Echo being a work in progress is available both via the wiki and as an Extras package so it is sure to get real world testing, if need be we can ask users to test it out and maybe install it as a non-default theme so people can switch over easily. Once we get to a point where we have the required coverage, we make the switch, preferrably after consulting the users but if desired the art team can make that decision alone since it is now trivially easy to switch to whatever the users like. I promise on beloved aunts grave when it is dead simple to change the overall look of Fedora, then I'll shut up forever on this subject since I will then have a choice, right now I don't so I want the default to be as good as it gets - not just for me but for the good of our users. Can Echo reach full coverage for FC7, realistically? If it can't, can it at least compare to what we can do with Tango today (There are Tango icon packs out there for Gaim, OpenOffice is work in progress and tests are available afaik). Also how do we encourage the various upstreams to make it easier do awesomeartshit (I imagine people like Mozilla might not be happy if we change their artwork in the name of consistency so we might need to convince them somehow). - David From duffy at redhat.com Tue Nov 28 21:37:29 2006 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:37:29 -0500 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: <456CAB25.6010500@lovesunix.net> References: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> <1164740186.29878.5.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <456C8984.8000607@lovesunix.net> <456C8A5D.6050406@fedoraproject.org> <456CAB25.6010500@lovesunix.net> Message-ID: <456CAC19.1080506@redhat.com> David Nielsen wrote: > This all aside the fact that Tango is a damn fine piece of work, it has > great usability testing, Where are there details about Tango's usability testing? I do not remember reading about this anywhere on their site. I'm genuinely curious because I was completely unaware usability testing had been performed on the icons. ~m From sdl.web at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 21:36:23 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:36:23 +0000 Subject: Icon Theme References: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> Message-ID: On Tuesday, 28 Nov 2006, David Nielsen wrote: > I've tried convincing the art team of Tangos superior design, > consistency, usability, accessibility and progress for a while now, it > hasn't really brought me any good fortune, infact I think the term > used was "trolling". One problem we are sure to encounter though is > that Tango has wide upstream acceptance, The gimp, Jokosher and many > other fine existing and upcoming big FLOSS projects uses and relies on > Tango. As many of these, the biggest two being the GIMP and > OpenOffice, aren't readily themeable via standard means, it will mean > a lot of work for the art team to get the same coverage not to mention > cooperation with the packagers (not an issue after the core/extras > merge I wonder?) and if they don't manage that it means inconsistency > for the users which is all together not desirable. I remembered I read those posts. Your views judging from now are correct. We should put consistency, usability, accessibility first and whether to have a unique look second. [...] > That being said, the correct place to debate such issues is probably > the fedora-art list. I think Icon theming firstly concerns usability. The most noticeable change for a distribution. > > - David Nielsen -- Leo From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Nov 28 21:48:27 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 03:18:27 +0530 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: <456CAB25.6010500@lovesunix.net> References: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> <1164740186.29878.5.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <456C8984.8000607@lovesunix.net> <456C8A5D.6050406@fedoraproject.org> <456CAB25.6010500@lovesunix.net> Message-ID: <456CAEAB.1060204@fedoraproject.org> David Nielsen wrote: > > Having a default is forcing a setting on the users, Echo is no less > forcing a style on our users than Tango is. The question is do we want > to force a good setting or a bad setting on our users. For themes, there is no one specific good or bad choice. The argument you are making is that some upstream projects are adopting a particular style and changing the style in those applications are hard currently so we should adopt that particular style. In every application, it should be made possible to change it to any particular style that the user prefers. Defaults are not forcing a change, The inability to change it would be. > Can Echo reach full coverage for FC7, realistically? We dont know yet. It might be possible. Sooner if you contribute. If there are problems, we need bug reports. We dont need to cover everything. Just the common ones would be good enough for a first iteration. Also how do we encourage the various upstreams to > make it easier do awesomeartshit This is the direction we need to think more. If tango or any other theme is provided in Fedora as alternatives, we should fix whatever implementation deficiencies that make it harder to choose the style that the users prefer. For example, making RHGB more themeable or switching to a better implementation. Rahul From sdl.web at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 22:13:29 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:13:29 +0000 Subject: Icon Theme References: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> <1164740186.29878.5.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <456C8984.8000607@lovesunix.net> <456C8A5D.6050406@fedoraproject.org> <456CAB25.6010500@lovesunix.net> <456CAC19.1080506@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, 28 Nov 2006, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > David Nielsen wrote: >> This all aside the fact that Tango is a damn fine piece of work, it >> has great usability testing, > > Where are there details about Tango's usability testing? > > I do not remember reading about this anywhere on their site. I'm > genuinely curious because I was completely unaware usability testing > had been performed on the icons. > > ~m As a matter of fact there is no usability test done by the tango project. I got an answer from Andreas Nilsson in #tango: ,---- | not really, but they are made in such a way to make them visible | against all kinds of colors and we try to make the icons in such a way | that they are easy to distinguish from each other `---- Cheers, -- Leo From david at lovesunix.net Tue Nov 28 22:21:29 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:21:29 +0100 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: <456CAC19.1080506@redhat.com> References: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> <1164740186.29878.5.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <456C8984.8000607@lovesunix.net> <456C8A5D.6050406@fedoraproject.org> <456CAB25.6010500@lovesunix.net> <456CAC19.1080506@redhat.com> Message-ID: <456CB669.60701@lovesunix.net> M?ir?n Duffy skrev: > David Nielsen wrote: >> This all aside the fact that Tango is a damn fine piece of work, it >> has great usability testing, > > Where are there details about Tango's usability testing? > > I do not remember reading about this anywhere on their site. I'm > genuinely curious because I was completely unaware usability testing > had been performed on the icons. > > ~m > I believe Tango has been part of the Better Desktop testing, if I am mistaken then at the very least their comprehensive style guide has mentions of basic considerations to make for usable icon design so at least their style shows some consideration being given to the objective even if indirectly. I apologize for my use of the word "great", it has undergone, at least, indirect usability testing and it's designers and guideline authors, at least a few of them, are aware of usability concerns (Ryan Collier and Anna Dirks are both usability people by trait). - David From duffy at redhat.com Tue Nov 28 22:41:06 2006 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:41:06 -0500 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: <456CB669.60701@lovesunix.net> References: <456C82D5.90509@lovesunix.net> <1164740186.29878.5.camel@golem.boston.devel.redhat.com> <456C8984.8000607@lovesunix.net> <456C8A5D.6050406@fedoraproject.org> <456CAB25.6010500@lovesunix.net> <456CAC19.1080506@redhat.com> <456CB669.60701@lovesunix.net> Message-ID: <456CBB02.702@redhat.com> David Nielsen wrote: > M?ir?n Duffy skrev: >> David Nielsen wrote: >>> This all aside the fact that Tango is a damn fine piece of work, it >>> has great usability testing, >> >> Where are there details about Tango's usability testing? >> >> I do not remember reading about this anywhere on their site. I'm >> genuinely curious because I was completely unaware usability testing >> had been performed on the icons. > I believe Tango has been part of the Better Desktop testing, if I am > mistaken then http://www.betterdesktop.org/wiki/index.php?title=Data Yeh, no icon-specific tests there that I can identify. at the very least their comprehensive style guide has > mentions of basic considerations to make for usable icon design so at > least their style shows some consideration being given to the objective > even if indirectly. I wouldn't say their guidelines are any more conducive to 'usable' icons than any other icon style guidelines. There are design elements in the guidelines that help achieve better usability - the best one is the solid outline around the icon. Of course, Tango actually has guidelines while Echo does not - which is a good point. I apologize for my use of the word "great", it has > undergone, at least, indirect usability testing and it's designers and > guideline authors, at least a few of them, are aware of usability > concerns (Ryan Collier and Anna Dirks are both usability people by trait). I studied usability practices in graduate school and perform usability testing professionally. I've also contributed to Echo in the past. This does not mean Echo is usable. Don't get me wrong, I agree with a *lot* of your points. But I think you're muddying the issue with the 'usability' point. There are pretty big differences between interaction design, visual design, usability, and accessibility. The boundaries of these disciplines do bleed over sometimes and are discussed quite frequently [1]. But, the basics of it are: 1) DESIGN is up-front, before implementation. 2) USABILITY is at the end, after *something* has been implemented (whether it's a mock or an initial iteration). Usability is kind of like QA for design. Echo aside, it seems clear that Tango has 1 but not 2, so 'usability' doesn't seem a valid selling point. 'Consistency' which helps usability, maybe. ~m [1] http://lists.interactiondesigners.com/pipermail/discuss-interactiondesigners.com/2004-July/001981.html From email at pfennigsolutions.de Wed Nov 29 00:28:57 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 01:28:57 +0100 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> Rahul Sundaram schrieb: > > Also there was people phoning in and participating via irc channel at > #fedora-summit, the logs of which are available in the wiki. You can > also look at proposals being discussed currently and get involved. So > participation and contributions are not restricted to people with the > ability to travel to the meeting place. Yes, but it is restricted to official contributors who have signed the CLA. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig PfennigSolutions - Wiki-Systeme http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Nov 29 00:49:13 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 06:19:13 +0530 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Rahul Sundaram schrieb: >> Also there was people phoning in and participating via irc channel at >> #fedora-summit, the logs of which are available in the wiki. You can >> also look at proposals being discussed currently and get involved. So >> participation and contributions are not restricted to people with the >> ability to travel to the meeting place. > Yes, but it is restricted to official contributors who have signed the CLA. > No. Its not. Everyone was open to join the fedora summit channel and send feedback. Fedora devel list is also open to everyone. Rahul From david at fubar.dk Wed Nov 29 03:47:43 2006 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:47:43 -0500 Subject: Multiple gnome sessions/panels on console and on VNC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1164772063.2471.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 15:22 -0500, Eli Barzilay wrote: > (I don't believe that I'm the only one left that is crazy enough to > have two sessions running on a single machine...) No, actually we're planning this for Fedora 7 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/FastUserSwitching as I've announced on fedora-devel-list some time ago. It sorta works in Rawhide with fusa, see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=213121 except for the problems noted in that Wiki page. David From eli at barzilay.org Wed Nov 29 04:51:18 2006 From: eli at barzilay.org (Eli Barzilay) Date: 28 Nov 2006 23:51:18 -0500 Subject: Multiple gnome sessions/panels on console and on VNC References: <1164772063.2471.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: David Zeuthen writes: > On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 15:22 -0500, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > (I don't believe that I'm the only one left that is crazy enough to > > have two sessions running on a single machine...) > > No, actually we're planning this for Fedora 7 > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/FastUserSwitching > > as I've announced on fedora-devel-list some time ago. It sorta works in > Rawhide with fusa, see > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=213121 > > except for the problems noted in that Wiki page. IIUC, this is about multiple sessions on a single machine owned by different users -- which is different than what I'm talking about. My problem is running multiple sessions (console + VNC) from a *single* user. The problem is that the gnome panel is trying its best to keep all instances connected: the geometry of one session leaks to others, and killing the panel in one session makes it want to restart itself in another. Maybe my horribly stupid idea for a solution will demonstrate what I wanted: I tried running HOME=~/.vnc gnome-session to get my VNC gnome to be disconnected from the console session. It didn't work because there are many other communication channels which gnome components were using behind my back. (Unsurprisingly, this was a catastrophe on many other levels, but the idea should be clear...) -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://www.barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! From email at pfennigsolutions.de Wed Nov 29 12:17:57 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:17:57 +0100 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> Rahul Sundaram schrieb: > No. Its not. Everyone was open to join the fedora summit channel and > send feedback. Fedora devel list is also open to everyone. But the wiki is not. And as summit is over no irc contributions. I know that I may post emails to most fedora lists, but thats not much. I can also do this on every open mailing lists for any proprietary software. -- Thilo Pfennig PfennigSolutions - Wiki-Systeme http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ From mattdm at mattdm.org Wed Nov 29 12:40:39 2006 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:40:39 -0500 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <20061129124039.GA15853@jadzia.bu.edu> On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 01:17:57PM +0100, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > But the wiki is not. And as summit is over no irc contributions. I know > that I may post emails to most fedora lists, but thats not much. I can > also do this on every open mailing lists for any proprietary software. Sign the CLA. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From sdl.web at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 13:17:22 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:17:22 +0000 Subject: Icon Theme References: Message-ID: Hi all, >From various replies, I notice people are focusing on the fact that Echo is not finished and we should wait and see. There is possibility that miracle can happen and we all want Fedora to have a popular yet unique look. However, could you try to estimate how much time we need to get it ready for Fedora 7 based on the number of people working on it? I quite doubt Echo can make it within Fedora 7 time frame. As pointed out by David, inconsistency are one of the major issues. Usability experts, could you point out what needs to improve in Echo? Look at the current set of icons, try to use it on your desktop?. My experience seems to tell me, they are not as easy on the eyes as Bluecurve or Tango. Designing icons without palette and guidelines would work well when there is only one contributor. We should set at least some very basic guidelines if we expect all contributed icons to roughly have the same level of quality and fit well together. Tango being a freedesktop project detached from any distributions will be adopted by all upstream developers sooner or later not to mention there are already quite a few software websites using tango icons. Designing Echo without a mind to make it compatible with Tango, we are risking ourselves to have an inconsistent look the day Echo is out. And it would requires so much more work on designing icons for big apps such as OOo etc if we do care to deliver a consistent desktop look. If people could look objectively at the current status of Echo, and make a doable plan for Fedora 7, I think that would be best. Footnotes: ? yum --enablerepo=development install echo-icon-theme -- Leo From email at pfennigsolutions.de Wed Nov 29 14:33:42 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:33:42 +0100 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <20061129124039.GA15853@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <20061129124039.GA15853@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <456D9A46.2040604@pfennigsolutions.de> Matthew Miller schrieb: > On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 01:17:57PM +0100, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > >> But the wiki is not. And as summit is over no irc contributions. I know >> that I may post emails to most fedora lists, but thats not much. I can >> also do this on every open mailing lists for any proprietary software. >> > > Sign the CLA. > So everybody in the world should sign the CLA and give Red Hat non-exclusive rights to do with the content what they want? I would not use a license if this would be my direction. In fact if we do this with software (do all software developers have signed the CLA?) this would in fact mean that Red Hat has the choice to relicense every bit that is contributed and distribute it proprietary. You mighth say: They will not. But as Red Hat does not trust me as a free man if I do not sign a CLA, why should I trust Red Hat? In my opinion free software and free content should be based on two components: 1) free licenses 2) free communties And they should never ever try to enhance the licenses in order to give one party (in this case Red Hat) more control than anybody else. Also think about that: If I would like to contribute to lets say 50 projects (which may in fact he case on my part) like Apache.org, Wikipedia.org, etc.etc. - does it make sense to sign 50+ license agreements only to give one party more rights than I have? Sorry, but if this point is not going to be changed I rather leave Fedora and rather fight its distribution, because it restricts the rights of its users and goes a path that goes away from the freedom that made free software great. Fedora sees the world from the view of its own organisational problems, but the future of free software should be free contribution. A distributions should be there for the free software, the developers and the users and not the other way round: the users, software and developers must follow the rule oif a distribution. For me it is ok if Fedora REALLY wants to go the path and then I will not bother any more, but I want to make that clear for me of this is what the directions really are going to be. I am involved in many projects and I rather invest my time in real free software projects , then, although I sure would love to hear from somebody that things indeed will change, because so far I like much of Fedora. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig PfennigSolutions - Wiki-Systeme http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ From ajackson at redhat.com Wed Nov 29 14:54:46 2006 From: ajackson at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:54:46 -0500 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456D9A46.2040604@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <20061129124039.GA15853@jadzia.bu.edu> <456D9A46.2040604@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <1164812086.7683.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-11-29 at 15:33 +0100, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Matthew Miller schrieb: > > On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 01:17:57PM +0100, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > > > >> But the wiki is not. And as summit is over no irc contributions. I know > >> that I may post emails to most fedora lists, but thats not much. I can > >> also do this on every open mailing lists for any proprietary software. > >> > > > > Sign the CLA. > > > So everybody in the world should sign the CLA and give Red Hat > non-exclusive rights to do with the content what they want? I would not > use a license if this would be my direction. In fact if we do this with > software (do all software developers have signed the CLA?) this would in > fact mean that Red Hat has the choice to relicense every bit that is > contributed and distribute it proprietary. You mighth say: They will > not. But as Red Hat does not trust me as a free man if I do not sign a > CLA, why should I trust Red Hat? Please read the CLA. Section 2, the Contributor Grant of License, is a grant to both Red Hat and to _every_ Fedora user. It states that you are making your works available to the above-mentioned parties in perpetuity, and that you have the right to do so (patent and otherwise). It does _not_ specify the license under which you do so, merely that it must have the properties of allowing derivative works, public display and performance, and distribution; Red Hat, and the Fedora Project, must still respect the license of the work being contributed. Neither is it a statement of assignment of copyright. It's really just a statement of good faith, written in the same reciprocal spirit as GPLv2, and it explicitly does not grant Red Hat any special exclusive powers. I appreciate your caution in legal matters, but you're attributing properties to the CLA that just aren't there. - ajax From email at pfennigsolutions.de Wed Nov 29 16:17:35 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:17:35 +0100 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <1164812086.7683.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <20061129124039.GA15853@jadzia.bu.edu> <456D9A46.2040604@pfennigsolutions.de> <1164812086.7683.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <456DB29F.6080500@pfennigsolutions.de> Adam Jackson schrieb: > Please read the CLA. Section 2, the Contributor Grant of License, is a > grant to both Red Hat and to _every_ Fedora user. It states that you > > I did exactly that, often. "You hereby grant to Red Hat, Inc. .... a perpetual, non-exclusive, worldwide, fully paid-up, royalty free, irrevocable copyright license to reproduce, prepare derivative works of, publicly display, publicly perform, sublicense, and distribute your Contribution and such derivative works; and, " So in my words I would say I grant Red Hat an irrvocalbe copyright license. Why all this CLA thingy? read the words of karsten Wade: "[reason] Why am I in favor of the CLA for all contributors (code and content)? Because then we _never_have_to_do_this_again_. " -- source: http://www.spinics.net/lists/fedora-docs/msg03640.html What does that mean? The experience was that because there was no CLA the users had full copyrights. Now if people contribute under CLA&OPL Red Hat can relicense this stuff, because they not only have the content licensed under OPL, but they also do have the full copy right. So they can relicense under different free licenses or do what they want with it. And about the OPL - The Wikipedia says: "The OPL is now largely defunct, and its creator suggests that new projects not use it. " -- source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Publication_License The OPL is the predecessor of the Creative Commons licenses and it is not understandable why anyone chooses this licenses today if this means making incompatibel content (neitehr GFDL nor CCL) I understand that the CLA has no effect on what I can do with my contributions, but it has a great effect on what others can do with my works. Everybody can take the content in the wiki and use iot by that license, but Fedora and Red Hat can take the content and make it proprietary. The thing is, that licenses always were there to clarify the intellectual property. So I am asking me why the CLA states "In order to clarify the intellectual property license granted with Contributions from any person or entity, Red Hat, Inc. ("Red Hat"), as maintainer of the Project, must have a Contributor License Agreement (CLA) on file that has been signed by each Contributor, indicating agreement to the license terms below." If I publish a content under a specific license I exactly do this: I clarify what right I do give to those who use my content. Why on earth does Red Hat and Fedora are the only free software contributors who need an additional agreement? Whats so special about Fedora that they add something to the licenses? I think that the OPL was chosen because it allows to extend the license by adding options. Well, the CLA not really is an option as I would understand it, but OTOH I think evry other license would have been made clearly invalid, becausefree licenses often include statements like this: "You may not offer or impose any terms on the Work that alter or restrict the terms of this License or the recipients' exercise of the rights granted hereunder. You may not sublicense the Work" -- source: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/legalcode (CC-BY-2.5) Or "Any other attempt to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Document is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. " -- source: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl.txt (GFDL) So this is very essential for most licenses other than the OPL: Do not allow any further terms and restrictions. So for me it is abolutely clear that Fedora does have a problem with those licenses that aim to protect the rights of contributors solely with their terms in the way that they make it impossible to add something like a CLA. Fedora thinks that free licenses are not enough to give the community the rights they need - or better the project the rights that it thinks it needs. > It's really just a statement of good faith, written in the same > reciprocal spirit as GPLv2, and it explicitly does not grant Red Hat any > special exclusive powers. I appreciate your caution in legal matters, > but you're attributing properties to the CLA that just aren't there. > We have free licenses that give us all the rights we need. The Wikipedia works like that, also. There is no other reason for the CLA as to have the possibility to impropriate the content of the contributors. What then would you see is the main purpose of the CLA and why do you think it is now not enough to publish my content under a free license? What's next? The kernel developers sign a CLA to Linus Torvalds so he can republish the kernel under whatever conditions he thinks are good? Just think about what will happen if we see projects like GNOME, KDE, Apache,.... doing the same and all under different conditions. This in fact makes contributing a mess. If somebody says Fedora needs a CLA this must eb true for every other major distribution or project. And I fear that once this this starts and is not being stopped as a new fashion things will get extremely weird. So I would say in the sense that you wrote "I appreciate Fedoras caution to legal matters, but I really think they have overdone it" Fact is: I do not contribute any more and many people do not so, either. Enforcing the CLA ment favouring legal concerns above user contributions. And again: Why Fedora and no other project I know? (if somebody can point me to others I like to look into their issues, too) Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig PfennigSolutions - Wiki-Systeme http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ From ajackson at redhat.com Wed Nov 29 16:34:34 2006 From: ajackson at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:34:34 -0500 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456DB29F.6080500@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <20061129124039.GA15853@jadzia.bu.edu> <456D9A46.2040604@pfennigsolutions.de> <1164812086.7683.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> <456DB29F.6080500@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <1164818074.7683.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-11-29 at 17:17 +0100, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > What does that mean? The experience was that because there was no CLA > the users had full copyrights. Now if people contribute under CLA&OPL > Red Hat can relicense this stuff, because they not only have the content > licensed under OPL, but they also do have the full copy right. So they > can relicense under different free licenses or do what they want with it. Without the CLA, there is no guarantee that a user will not subsequently attempt to revoke Fedora's permission to use their contribution. This may or may not work in court, but it's certainly been tried elsewhere (cough, SCO) and it's a hassle we don't really feel like dealing with. The CLA is a very small contract to ensure that the contribution to free software is non-revokable, and that the contributor actually has the right to contribute the things they contribute. As for your other assertion: > I understand that the CLA has no effect on what I can do with my > contributions, but it has a great effect on what others can do with my > works. Everybody can take the content in the wiki and use iot by that > license, but Fedora and Red Hat can take the content and make it > proprietary. No. We. Can't. Grant of license does _not_ mean assignment of copyright. Microsoft grants you a copyright license to use Vista in exchange for some quantity of currency; they do not give you ownership of the code. The parallel here should be obvious. > What then would you see is the main purpose of the CLA and why do you > think it is now not enough to publish my content under a free license? > What's next? The kernel developers sign a CLA to Linus Torvalds so he > can republish the kernel under whatever conditions he thinks are good? The irony here is that the kernel has a corresponding mechanism to Fedora's CLA. It's called Signed-Off-By: and it accompanies _every_ changeset. Fedora just does it once up front. - ajax From peter at thecodergeek.com Wed Nov 29 16:47:05 2006 From: peter at thecodergeek.com (Peter Gordon) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:47:05 -0800 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456DB29F.6080500@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <20061129124039.GA15853@jadzia.bu.edu> <456D9A46.2040604@pfennigsolutions.de> <1164812086.7683.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> <456DB29F.6080500@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <20061129084705.ntzrxe8u4pokk0w8@thecodergeek.com> email at pfennigsolutions.de wrote: > Adam Jackson schrieb: >> Please read the CLA. Section 2, the Contributor Grant of License, is a >> grant to both Red Hat and to _every_ Fedora user. It states that you >> >> > I did exactly that, often. > "You hereby grant to Red Hat, Inc. .... a perpetual, non-exclusive, > worldwide, fully paid-up, royalty free, irrevocable copyright license to > reproduce, prepare derivative works of, publicly display, publicly > perform, sublicense, and distribute your Contribution and such > derivative works; and, " > > So in my words I would say I grant Red Hat an irrvocalbe copyright > license. Why all this CLA thingy? read the words of karsten Wade: > You're not reading the full CLA. Your ellipsis in the quote omits some important text: "[...] You hereby grant to Red Hat, Inc., on behalf of the Project, and to recipients of software distributed by the Project: [...]" This means that anyone who receives a copy of the software or content that is by someone's contributions to the Fedora Project receives these full copyleft permissions (to redistribute and/or modify, et al.) > [...] Now if people contribute under CLA&OPL > Red Hat can relicense this stuff, because they not only have the content > licensed under OPL, but they also do have the full copy right [sic]. > So they can relicense under different free licenses or do what they want > with it. Red Hat does not own copyright to the code or content which is contributed to Fedora. They, like all other redistributors, have only a *license* to redistribute and/or modify it under these copyleft terms. > We have free licenses that give us all the rights we need. The Wikipedia > works like that, also. There is no other reason for the CLA as to have > the possibility to impropriate the content of the contributors. We have these Free licenses, yes. However, signing the CLA ensures that every contribution one makes to the Fedora Project is Free and legal. > Fact is: I do not contribute any more and many people do not so, either. > Enforcing the CLA ment favouring legal concerns above user > contributions. Unfortunately, Red Hat and the Fedora Project are both based in the United States, a country which is huge on litigations and legal implications and infractions. Therefore, great legal care must be taken when dealing with matters of copyright, trademark, and patent law. -- Peter Gordon (codergeek42) This message was sent through a webmail interface, thus has no digital signature. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Nov 29 16:57:41 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:27:41 +0530 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <456DBC05.2090300@fedoraproject.org> Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Rahul Sundaram schrieb: >> No. Its not. Everyone was open to join the fedora summit channel and >> send feedback. Fedora devel list is also open to everyone. > But the wiki is not. And as summit is over no irc contributions. I know > that I may post emails to most fedora lists, but thats not much. I can > also do this on every open mailing lists for any proprietary software. Summit had a IRC channel. #fedora-summit as I have already pointed out in a previous message. What more do you need? Rahul From david at fubar.dk Wed Nov 29 17:03:26 2006 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:03:26 -0500 Subject: Multiple gnome sessions/panels on console and on VNC In-Reply-To: References: <1164772063.2471.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1164819806.2474.6.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 23:51 -0500, Eli Barzilay wrote: > IIUC, this is about multiple sessions on a single machine owned by > different users -- which is different than what I'm talking about. Yea, I realized that after sending the mail, sorry. > My > problem is running multiple sessions (console + VNC) from a *single* > user. The problem is that the gnome panel is trying its best to keep > all instances connected: the geometry of one session leaks to others, > and killing the panel in one session makes it want to restart itself > in another. I think it's a bug if this doesn't work; suggest to file bug and perhaps mention the bug numbers here? Thanks! David From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Nov 29 17:01:50 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:31:50 +0530 Subject: Icon Theme In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456DBCFE.6090005@fedoraproject.org> Leo wrote: > Hi all, > >>From various replies, I notice people are focusing on the fact that > Echo is not finished and we should wait and see. There is possibility > that miracle can happen and we all want Fedora to have a popular yet > unique look. However, could you try to estimate how much time we need > to get it ready for Fedora 7 based on the number of people working on > it? I quite doubt Echo can make it within Fedora 7 time frame. As > pointed out by David, inconsistency are one of the major issues. A complete icon set would take time. Its a lot of work. Thats already well known. > Tango being a freedesktop project detached from any distributions will > be adopted by all upstream developers sooner or later not to mention > there are already quite a few software websites using tango > icons. Freedesktop is a hosting space not very different from sf.net except for its desktop orientation. It is not a guarantee of upstream adaptobility. KDE most probably is not going to adopt it for example. There has been discussions about whether tango as a theme would fit into freedesktop at all though there is general agreement that a standard naming convention is a very good thing. Rahul From email at pfennigsolutions.de Wed Nov 29 17:05:26 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:05:26 +0100 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456DBC05.2090300@fedoraproject.org> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <456DBC05.2090300@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <456DBDD6.3080605@pfennigsolutions.de> Rahul Sundaram schrieb: > Thilo Pfennig wrote: >> Rahul Sundaram schrieb: >>> No. Its not. Everyone was open to join the fedora summit channel and >>> send feedback. Fedora devel list is also open to everyone. >> But the wiki is not. And as summit is over no irc contributions. I know >> that I may post emails to most fedora lists, but thats not much. I can >> also do this on every open mailing lists for any proprietary software. > > Summit had a IRC channel. #fedora-summit as I have already pointed out > in a previous message. What more do you need? Direct access to the wiki with different license and without the need to sign a CLA. So my options really are: * Build a community version of Fedora or * Just leave the project. hm... Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig PfennigSolutions - Wiki-Systeme http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Nov 29 17:07:37 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:37:37 +0530 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456DBDD6.3080605@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <456DBC05.2090300@fedoraproject.org> <456DBDD6.3080605@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <456DBE59.9080205@fedoraproject.org> Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Rahul Sundaram schrieb: >> Thilo Pfennig wrote: >>> Rahul Sundaram schrieb: >>>> No. Its not. Everyone was open to join the fedora summit channel and >>>> send feedback. Fedora devel list is also open to everyone. >>> But the wiki is not. And as summit is over no irc contributions. I know >>> that I may post emails to most fedora lists, but thats not much. I can >>> also do this on every open mailing lists for any proprietary software. >> Summit had a IRC channel. #fedora-summit as I have already pointed out >> in a previous message. What more do you need? > Direct access to the wiki with different license and without the need to > sign a CLA. So my options really are: > > * Build a community version of Fedora or > * Just leave the project. We are very unlikely to drop the CLA. It is a well recognized process that is used by several community projects with clear benefits. A quick sample: http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/20050325novalis.html http://www.fsf.org/licensing/assigning.html http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/faq-licensing.html#jca1 http://www.opensolaris.org/os/about/sun_contributor_agreement/ Rahul From peter at thecodergeek.com Wed Nov 29 17:15:01 2006 From: peter at thecodergeek.com (Peter Gordon) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:15:01 -0800 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456DBDD6.3080605@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <456DBC05.2090300@fedoraproject.org> <456DBDD6.3080605@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <20061129091501.qlmwvmgoorkgkw0s@thecodergeek.com> email at pfennigsolutions.de wrote: >> What more do you need? > Direct access to the wiki with different license and without the need to > sign a CLA. So my options really are: > > * Build a community version of Fedora or > * Just leave the project. Perhaps the second is more appropriate for you then. There is no "community version" of Fedora, because Fedora is inherently a *community* project. The CLA is there to ensure the legality and proper copyright of contributions; that's all. -- Peter Gordon (codergeek42) This message was sent through a webmail interface, thus has no digital signature. From eli at barzilay.org Wed Nov 29 17:38:11 2006 From: eli at barzilay.org (Eli Barzilay) Date: 29 Nov 2006 12:38:11 -0500 Subject: Multiple gnome sessions/panels on console and on VNC References: <1164772063.2471.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <1164819806.2474.6.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: David Zeuthen writes: > On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 23:51 -0500, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > My problem is running multiple sessions (console + VNC) from a > > *single* user. The problem is that the gnome panel is trying its > > best to keep all instances connected: the geometry of one session > > leaks to others, and killing the panel in one session makes it > > want to restart itself in another. > > I think it's a bug if this doesn't work; suggest to file bug and > perhaps mention the bug numbers here? Thanks! Done: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=217730 -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://www.barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! From eli at barzilay.org Wed Nov 29 17:44:01 2006 From: eli at barzilay.org (Eli Barzilay) Date: 29 Nov 2006 12:44:01 -0500 Subject: Smaller menu space? Message-ID: Is there a way to get the whole menu in a single entry point? Something similar to the way it used to be back in the Good Old Days. (I'm trying to minimize screen use on a small desktop, and I rarely use the mouse so there's no use for wasting a quarter-screen-wide portion of the panel on three labels.) -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://www.barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! From sdl.web at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 17:50:34 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:50:34 +0000 Subject: Smaller menu space? References: Message-ID: On Wednesday, 29 Nov 2006, Eli Barzilay wrote: > Is there a way to get the whole menu in a single entry point? > Something similar to the way it used to be back in the Good Old Days. > > (I'm trying to minimize screen use on a small desktop, and I rarely > use the mouse so there's no use for wasting a quarter-screen-wide > portion of the panel on three labels.) > > -- > ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: > http://www.barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! "Add to panel -> Main Menu" -- Leo From eli at barzilay.org Wed Nov 29 17:58:59 2006 From: eli at barzilay.org (Eli Barzilay) Date: 29 Nov 2006 12:58:59 -0500 Subject: Smaller menu space? References: Message-ID: Leo writes: > On Wednesday, 29 Nov 2006, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > > Is there a way to get the whole menu in a single entry point? > > Something similar to the way it used to be back in the Good Old > > Days. > > > > (I'm trying to minimize screen use on a small desktop, and I > > rarely use the mouse so there's no use for wasting a > > quarter-screen-wide portion of the panel on three labels.) > > "Add to panel -> Main Menu" Whew! Thanks! I fill like I just came out of an overcrowded elevator and can breathe now! -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://www.barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! From email at pfennigsolutions.de Wed Nov 29 18:03:16 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 19:03:16 +0100 Subject: Fedora Community anbody? Message-ID: <456DCB64.90606@pfennigsolutions.de> As things are today (see thread Re: directions in Fedora desktop project), it seems if users who want to contribute to Fedora but want to contribute would have to make a community version of the community project Fedora. I am not saying that I think that this sounds good or makes sense. Generally said I would like a project that takes the software that Fedora has and built a community and distribution of its own. So this project would not have to follow any of the considerations that Red Hat or Fedora Board has ever taken. I would enable everybody to contribute, again. So something like Fedora Unity but with a different flavour and sure no Fedora in its name or logo, although following some Fedora paths in future development. As I have heard making branches of Fedora should become easier. Maybe this would be a choice? Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig PfennigSolutions - Wiki-Systeme http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ From email at pfennigsolutions.de Wed Nov 29 18:06:34 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 19:06:34 +0100 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <20061129091501.qlmwvmgoorkgkw0s@thecodergeek.com> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <456DBC05.2090300@fedoraproject.org> <456DBDD6.3080605@pfennigsolutions.de> <20061129091501.qlmwvmgoorkgkw0s@thecodergeek.com> Message-ID: <456DCC2A.70503@pfennigsolutions.de> Peter Gordon schrieb: > version" of Fedora, because Fedora is inherently a *community* > project. The I never felt that. But you really feel that in Ubuntu. Maybe it feels a bit different if in your environment more people use Fedora? Here in Germany I ' d say we have 50% (decreasing) SuSE 40% Ubuntu (and rising) 8% Gentoo and maybe Fedora is part of the last 2 percent. Just my impressions, no statistics. -- Thilo Pfennig PfennigSolutions - Wiki-Systeme http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Nov 29 18:14:25 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:44:25 +0530 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456DCC2A.70503@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <456DBC05.2090300@fedoraproject.org> <456DBDD6.3080605@pfennigsolutions.de> <20061129091501.qlmwvmgoorkgkw0s@thecodergeek.com> <456DCC2A.70503@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <456DCE01.8060706@fedoraproject.org> Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Peter Gordon schrieb: >> version" of Fedora, because Fedora is inherently a *community* >> project. The > I never felt that. But you really feel that in Ubuntu. Maybe it feels a > bit different if in your environment more people use Fedora? Here in > Germany I ' d say we have 50% (decreasing) SuSE 40% Ubuntu (and rising) > 8% Gentoo and maybe Fedora is part of the last 2 percent. Just my > impressions, no statistics. Impressions based on arbitrary numbers and random hunches are not very useful. We are looking at collecting more concrete stats instead. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Metrics Rahul From eli at barzilay.org Wed Nov 29 19:21:16 2006 From: eli at barzilay.org (Eli Barzilay) Date: 29 Nov 2006 14:21:16 -0500 Subject: Smaller menu space? References: Message-ID: Eli Barzilay writes: > Leo writes: > > > On Wednesday, 29 Nov 2006, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > > > > Is there a way to get the whole menu in a single entry point? > > > Something similar to the way it used to be back in the Good Old > > > Days. > > > > > > (I'm trying to minimize screen use on a small desktop, and I > > > rarely use the mouse so there's no use for wasting a > > > quarter-screen-wide portion of the panel on three labels.) > > > > "Add to panel -> Main Menu" > > Whew! Thanks! I fill like I just came out of an overcrowded elevator > and can breathe now! (And apparently excited enough to "fill"...) -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://www.barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! From sdl.web at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 19:30:10 2006 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 19:30:10 +0000 Subject: Smaller menu space? References: Message-ID: On Wednesday, 29 Nov 2006, Eli Barzilay wrote: > Leo writes: > >> On Wednesday, 29 Nov 2006, Eli Barzilay wrote: >> >> > Is there a way to get the whole menu in a single entry point? >> > Something similar to the way it used to be back in the Good Old >> > Days. >> > >> > (I'm trying to minimize screen use on a small desktop, and I >> > rarely use the mouse so there's no use for wasting a >> > quarter-screen-wide portion of the panel on three labels.) >> >> "Add to panel -> Main Menu" > > Whew! Thanks! I fill like I just came out of an overcrowded elevator > and can breathe now! > But the menu looks very busy though. -- Leo From eli at barzilay.org Wed Nov 29 19:55:05 2006 From: eli at barzilay.org (Eli Barzilay) Date: 29 Nov 2006 14:55:05 -0500 Subject: Smaller menu space? References: Message-ID: Leo writes: > On Wednesday, 29 Nov 2006, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > > Leo writes: > > > >> On Wednesday, 29 Nov 2006, Eli Barzilay wrote: > >> > >> > Is there a way to get the whole menu in a single entry point? > >> > Something similar to the way it used to be back in the Good Old > >> > Days. > >> > > >> > (I'm trying to minimize screen use on a small desktop, and I > >> > rarely use the mouse so there's no use for wasting a > >> > quarter-screen-wide portion of the panel on three labels.) > >> > >> "Add to panel -> Main Menu" > > > > Whew! Thanks! I fill like I just came out of an overcrowded elevator > > and can breathe now! > > But the menu looks very busy though. Busy but hidden is great for something that I use less than once a week. Better than making the screen always look busy. -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://www.barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! From email at pfennigsolutions.de Wed Nov 29 23:10:14 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 00:10:14 +0100 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456DCE01.8060706@fedoraproject.org> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <456DBC05.2090300@fedoraproject.org> <456DBDD6.3080605@pfennigsolutions.de> <20061129091501.qlmwvmgoorkgkw0s@thecodergeek.com> <456DCC2A.70503@pfennigsolutions.de> <456DCE01.8060706@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <456E1356.60508@pfennigsolutions.de> Rahul Sundaram schrieb: > Impressions based on arbitrary numbers and random hunches are not very > useful. We are looking at collecting more concrete stats instead. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Metrics Well absolute numbers are not very useful, especially when counted worldwide. You get a better sense of a distribution if you know what people think. We have also thoought about those problems at GNOME marketing list http://live.gnome.org/CountingUsers The problems is the quality of the data. I think it would make much more sense if this would be a combined effort that would be led by freedesktop.org, because anyway we need measures that mist distributions or desktops accept. If all do it differently you wil not have any relations you can count on. So I would rather recommend to discuss such things on freedesktop-promo ( http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/FreedesktopMarketing). Thilo From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Nov 29 23:29:13 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:59:13 +0530 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456E1356.60508@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <456DBC05.2090300@fedoraproject.org> <456DBDD6.3080605@pfennigsolutions.de> <20061129091501.qlmwvmgoorkgkw0s@thecodergeek.com> <456DCC2A.70503@pfennigsolutions.de> <456DCE01.8060706@fedoraproject.org> <456E1356.60508@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <456E17C9.80104@fedoraproject.org> Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Rahul Sundaram schrieb: >> Impressions based on arbitrary numbers and random hunches are not very >> useful. We are looking at collecting more concrete stats instead. >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Metrics > Well absolute numbers are not very useful, especially when counted > worldwide. You get a better sense of a distribution if you know what > people think. Counting users, collecting hardware information etc is *very useful* exercise in itself that is different from surveys etc. Basic information that we collect currently is purely anonymous server side infrastructure. Analysis of these metrics can almost be completely automated. We have also thoought about those problems at GNOME > marketing list http://live.gnome.org/CountingUsers The problems is the > quality of the data. Yes, the metrics page discusses the pros and cons of different approaches in detail. I think it would make much more sense if this would > be a combined effort that would be led by freedesktop.org, because > anyway we need measures that mist distributions or desktops accept. If > all do it differently you wil not have any relations you can count on. > > So I would rather recommend to discuss such things on freedesktop-promo > ( http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/FreedesktopMarketing). Our current efforts on collecting metrics is not limited to the desktop and is not just a marketing effort. The particular list seems to be all about coordination between promoting desktop environments like GNOME, KDE etc which is important but doesnt seem very related to what we are trying to do here. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Nov 30 00:19:23 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 05:49:23 +0530 Subject: Fedora Community anbody? In-Reply-To: <456DCB64.90606@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456DCB64.90606@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <456E238B.2060701@fedoraproject.org> Thilo Pfennig wrote: > As things are today (see thread Re: directions in Fedora desktop > project), it seems if users who want to contribute to Fedora but want to > contribute would have to make a community version of the community > project Fedora. I am not saying that I think that this sounds good or > makes sense. > It doesnt. We already have hundreds of non Red Hat contributors in Fedora and this is a constantly growing number. The proposal to merge core and extras is a important effort that would strongly move Fedora more into the community front. > Generally said I would like a project that takes the software that > Fedora has and built a community and distribution of its own. So this > project would not have to follow any of the considerations that Red Hat > or Fedora Board has ever taken. I would enable everybody to contribute, > again. So something like Fedora Unity but with a different flavour and > sure no Fedora in its name or logo, although following some Fedora paths > in future development. As I have heard making branches of Fedora should > become easier. Maybe this would be a choice? The goals and benefits of such a fork is not very clear and unless those are clearly stated, it would be difficult to gather any interest in such a effort. Your only major contention about Fedora seems to from misconceptions about the CLA which is a legal safety mechanism used by a large number of Free software projects including Apache, Openoffice.org etc[1]. We havent heard many complaints about the CLA itself but there is some difficulties especially for non technical folks in the process of signing a CLA and joining the various sub projects due to the disconnected nature of these systems and there is a effort to fix that[2]. If you want to focus your efforts on a derivative distribution, there is a large number of them already which you could contribute[3] and we are working on creating tools such as Pilgrim and Pungi that would help the community do this more easily[4]. So if indeed you would like to go this route, the choice is already exercised very well. Rahul [1]https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2006-November/msg00081.html [2]http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit/OpenId [3]http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DerivedDistributions [4]http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit/ReleaseProcess From email at pfennigsolutions.de Thu Nov 30 08:47:01 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 09:47:01 +0100 Subject: directions in Fedora desktop project In-Reply-To: <456E17C9.80104@fedoraproject.org> References: <456B19D9.8020008@pfennigsolutions.de> <456B52CC.6070906@pfennigsolutions.de> <456C97A4.10509@fedoraproject.org> <456CD449.1060307@pfennigsolutions.de> <456CD909.8010703@fedoraproject.org> <456D7A75.9070209@pfennigsolutions.de> <456DBC05.2090300@fedoraproject.org> <456DBDD6.3080605@pfennigsolutions.de> <20061129091501.qlmwvmgoorkgkw0s@thecodergeek.com> <456DCC2A.70503@pfennigsolutions.de> <456DCE01.8060706@fedoraproject.org> <456E1356.60508@pfennigsolutions.de> <456E17C9.80104@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <456E9A85.4080804@pfennigsolutions.de> Rahul Sundaram schrieb: > Our current efforts on collecting metrics is not limited to the > desktop and is not just a marketing effort. The particular list seems > to be all about coordination between promoting desktop environments > like GNOME, KDE etc which is important but doesnt seem very related to > what we are trying to do here. The motivation might be different, but it is all about collecting data: How much instances of a distribution or desktop are installed and actively used? Debian also tries to count data. If many distributions would count in similar ways and many desktops also we also could put this data in relation. All face the same problems in counting: What about a Debian user using a Fedora X11-server via network? What about a Fedora user using OpenSuse in Xen and accessing the internet? What about people who dual-boot? There are many possibilities how to use Linux and also there are many users who install a Linux distribution and never come back to it (but could be counted as installed basis). I think it is redundant if every desktop and every distribution is starting from scratch to do analysis on its own. At best one only can estimate usage and it only makes sense if you can relate that data with other distributions. I think that the Fedora statistics can be a starting point but that it would be important to develop information strategy to make the best out of the data. -- Thilo Pfennig PfennigSolutions - Wiki-Systeme http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ From email at pfennigsolutions.de Thu Nov 30 08:47:54 2006 From: email at pfennigsolutions.de (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 09:47:54 +0100 Subject: Fedora Community anbody? In-Reply-To: <456E238B.2060701@fedoraproject.org> References: <456DCB64.90606@pfennigsolutions.de> <456E238B.2060701@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <456E9ABA.4080308@pfennigsolutions.de> Rahul Sundaram schrieb: > It doesnt. We already have hundreds of non Red Hat contributors in > Fedora and this is a constantly growing number. The proposal to merge > core and extras is a important effort that would strongly move Fedora > more into the community front. > Ok: non-Red Hat but still CLA contributors? Thilo > -- Thilo Pfennig PfennigSolutions - Wiki-Systeme http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ From pemboa at gmail.com Thu Nov 30 09:15:36 2006 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 03:15:36 +1800 Subject: Fedora Community anbody? In-Reply-To: <456E9ABA.4080308@pfennigsolutions.de> References: <456DCB64.90606@pfennigsolutions.de> <456E238B.2060701@fedoraproject.org> <456E9ABA.4080308@pfennigsolutions.de> Message-ID: <16de708d0611300115v5f50013ata535f7c8ee1c9589@mail.gmail.com> On 12/1/06, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Rahul Sundaram schrieb: > > It doesnt. We already have hundreds of non Red Hat contributors in > > Fedora and this is a constantly growing number. The proposal to merge > > core and extras is a important effort that would strongly move Fedora > > more into the community front. > > > > Ok: non-Red Hat but still CLA contributors? > Thilo > > Your original post doesn't not expound enough upon what you see to be the benifits of your proposal. Please feel us in on those details as I at least fail to see any from parsing your post - however that could be solely my fault. Peace -- Fedora Core 6 and proud