From davidz at redhat.com Wed Apr 4 16:47:44 2007 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 12:47:44 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Test3 LiveCD QA issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 11:46 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > ====================== > > Booting the LiveCD, grub gives you two options: > > Fedora-7-Test3-Live-i386 > Fedora-7-Test3-Live-i386 from RAM > > This is confusing -- should I choose default or no? What's the difference > between the two? I think users will be confused. The FC6 live cd said "(run from RAM - requires 1GB+)" instead of "from RAM" which may be less confusing to at least English speaking users.. > ====================== > > The default user name at the Live CD's gdm -- this is a simple change > > s/Fedora live CD/Fedora/ > > then if it's a LiveUSB or LiveDVD, the user name doesn't look odd Sounds good to me... > ====================== > > First impressions of the LiveCD desktop Note that mostly all of your comments below also apply to the default desktop install.. best is to just fix the problems there. So I'm adding fedora-desktop-list to get out the desktop people to read this. For reference, the original mail was here https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-livecd-list/2007-April/msg00036.html I basically agree with most of your points; some specific comments below... > We want it to be uncluttered, and to show off the coolest stuff in the > most obvious way. To that end: > - do we need the SCIM module in the top right? It would be nice if SCIM didn't show an icon for certain locales that use latin1, e.g. English, Danish, German, Dutch etc. So this should be fixed in SCIM itself... we shouldn't do a quick one-off for the live CD; we need to fix SCIM and keep including it by default... Keep in mind that the live CD may be used by people who don't speak/read/understand a word of English. > - do we need the Desktop search module in the top right? No, it should go IMO. Not Live CD specific. > > What about the default applications at the top of the GNOME panel? > - now: evolution, web browser Not Live CD specific. Agree it needs work... personally I think the web browser icon is butt ugly; it should show Firefox as that's the default browse... btw, it's even worse; a default desktop install we show icons for three OO applications. Do we really think that OO.o is the first thing people do? (I mean, this setup might be fine for "RHEL Desktop" but I'd wager any day of the week, and twice on Sundays, that it isn't true for Fedora) > - "Other->Theme Installer" doesn't do anything, and should be > removed Fixed already in Rawhide AFAIK. You missed my favorite pet peeve about the default desktop install. We show two trash cans, one in lower panel and one on the desktop. Do we _really_ want people to call us the trash distro? :-) David From drago01 at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 17:14:31 2007 From: drago01 at gmail.com (dragoran dragoran) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 19:14:31 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Test3 LiveCD QA issues In-Reply-To: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: On 4/4/07, David Zeuthen wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 11:46 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > ====================== > > > > Booting the LiveCD, grub gives you two options: > > > > Fedora-7-Test3-Live-i386 > > Fedora-7-Test3-Live-i386 from RAM > > > > This is confusing -- should I choose default or no? What's the > difference > > between the two? I think users will be confused. > > The FC6 live cd said "(run from RAM - requires 1GB+)" instead of "from > RAM" which may be less confusing to at least English speaking users.. which is not true for x86_64 it does not even work with 2gb (oom) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Apr 4 17:31:46 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:31:46 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Test3 LiveCD QA issues In-Reply-To: References: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <200704041331.50123.jkeating@redhat.com> On Wednesday 04 April 2007 13:14:31 dragoran dragoran wrote: > which is not true for x86_64 it does not even work with 2gb (oom) This was a bug in how this was done from DVD which should be fixed now, so that the comment should still apply. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From katzj at redhat.com Wed Apr 4 17:30:26 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 13:30:26 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Test3 LiveCD QA issues In-Reply-To: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1175707826.3099.9.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 12:47 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 11:46 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > ====================== > > > > Booting the LiveCD, grub gives you two options: > > > > Fedora-7-Test3-Live-i386 > > Fedora-7-Test3-Live-i386 from RAM > > > > This is confusing -- should I choose default or no? What's the difference > > between the two? I think users will be confused. > > The FC6 live cd said "(run from RAM - requires 1GB+)" instead of "from > RAM" which may be less confusing to at least English speaking users.. At the same time, it's long and if you have a long enough fslabel (which we likely do), then you run out of space and only get part of the text displayed. While the run from RAM option is nice, I'm still not entirely sold on it for the reasons Max was confused. > > ====================== > > > > The default user name at the Live CD's gdm -- this is a simple change > > > > s/Fedora live CD/Fedora/ > > > > then if it's a LiveUSB or LiveDVD, the user name doesn't look odd > > Sounds good to me... I actually have pending changing it to "Fedora Live" instead of just Fedora. And actually changing the rest of the "livecd" type references to be just live or live image. Jeremy From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Wed Apr 4 17:54:53 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 19:54:53 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Test3 LiveCD QA issues In-Reply-To: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1175709293.17528.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mercredi 04 avril 2007 ? 12:47 -0400, David Zeuthen a ?crit : > You missed my favorite pet peeve about the default desktop install. We > show two trash cans, one in lower panel and one on the desktop. Do we > _really_ want people to call us the trash distro? :-) What do you complain about ? This is the desktop that removed quick terminal access, (and a few months later it tops in mugshot's stats) The Fedora desktop moves in mysterious ways -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 4 17:59:58 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 23:29:58 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Test3 LiveCD QA issues In-Reply-To: <1175709293.17528.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <1175709293.17528.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4613E79E.7000904@fedoraproject.org> Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le mercredi 04 avril 2007 ? 12:47 -0400, David Zeuthen a ?crit : > >> You missed my favorite pet peeve about the default desktop install. We >> show two trash cans, one in lower panel and one on the desktop. Do we >> _really_ want people to call us the trash distro? :-) > > What do you complain about ? This is the desktop that removed quick > terminal access, (and a few months later it tops in mugshot's stats) > > The Fedora desktop moves in mysterious ways I think you have pointed out that mugshot reference enough times by now. The nautilus extension to have the terminal in the context menu is installed by default which I am not sure is intentional. Rahul From davidz at redhat.com Wed Apr 4 19:24:42 2007 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 15:24:42 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Test3 LiveCD QA issues In-Reply-To: <1175709293.17528.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <1175709293.17528.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1175714682.2741.19.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 19:54 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le mercredi 04 avril 2007 ? 12:47 -0400, David Zeuthen a ?crit : > > > You missed my favorite pet peeve about the default desktop install. We > > show two trash cans, one in lower panel and one on the desktop. Do we > > _really_ want people to call us the trash distro? :-) > > What do you complain about ? This is the desktop that removed quick > terminal access, (and a few months later it tops in mugshot's stats) > > The Fedora desktop moves in mysterious ways For the record, nautilus-open-terminal was in the FC6 live cd (reason: "For the adult in you") [1] so at least I share your point of view. I don't know why it disappeared from the Fedora 7 live cd. When the merger is complete it should probably be pulled in by one of the default @desktop groups. (Btw, in the future please rather file a bug so nautilus-open-terminal can go into the default set instead of... snide remarks. Thanks for your continued interested in the Fedora desktop project.) David [1] : http://www.mail-archive.com/fedora-announce-list at redhat.com/msg01172.html From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Apr 5 03:55:02 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 23:55:02 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Test3 LiveCD QA issues In-Reply-To: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <1175705264.2741.11.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1175745303.3000.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> > First impressions of the LiveCD desktop > > We want it to be uncluttered, and to show off the coolest stuff in the > most obvious way. To that end: > - do we need the SCIM module in the top right? The i18n people were adamant about turning scim on for everybody when it is installed, even though we asked for it to be restricted to certain locales... > - do we need the Desktop search module in the top right? This should be gone in rawhide. > - "calendar" in the office section is actually Evolution and it > crashes when you close it > - "email" in the top launcher is also Evolution, and it too crashes > (obviously) when you close it. > - "tasks" in the office section -- same thing > - so shouldn't it just have one more generalized name? The crash is a known bug, Matt is working on it. If you look closely, the four menuitems start evolution with different views. This was done because we believe that it is better to deemphasize the all-in-one-app aspect of evolution, and emphasize the individual tasks. > - "Other->Theme Installer" doesn't do anything, and should be > removed This missed the test3 freeze, should be fixed in rawhide. > - "System->About Fedora" can't load properly due to missing > about-fedora.xml This should no longer be an issue, since we managed to squeeze the distro far enough to make doc-ectomy unnecessary. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 06:48:10 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:48:10 +0200 Subject: dual monitor setup on laptop with 915gm intel chip Message-ID: <64b14b300704102348l1a8dedb9y9f4ed575fd0dd6db@mail.gmail.com> Has anybody an idea how to setup dual monitor setup with both laptop screen and also external lcd screen (1280x1024) on my IBM R52? I tried gnome-config-display but that doesn't work and it breaks my xorg.conf so both my laptop and my screen boot with 800x600 resolution! If I leave external LCD connected then laptop boots into 800x600 resolution which sucks. Thank you in advance. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 11:57:46 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:57:46 +0200 Subject: A better, faster desktop search for Linux! Message-ID: <64b14b300704110457s511e8bd9ldfac418ed06c3bc7@mail.gmail.com> I just saw this and this looks like fabulous project - better that beagle! http://digg.com/linux_unix/A_better_faster_desktop_search_for_Linux I love beagle, but not the memory footprint it uses and updates for mono used to break beagle, and vice-versa. I hope that "tracker" gets in Fedora 7 - and FAST. There is a fedora package so get it while it's hot! :) -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From david at lovesunix.net Wed Apr 11 17:15:18 2007 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:15:18 +0200 Subject: A better, faster desktop search for Linux! In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704110457s511e8bd9ldfac418ed06c3bc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704110457s511e8bd9ldfac418ed06c3bc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1176311718.3209.186.camel@dawkins> ons, 11 04 2007 kl. 13:57 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic: > I just saw this and this looks like fabulous project - better that beagle! > http://digg.com/linux_unix/A_better_faster_desktop_search_for_Linux > > I love beagle, but not the memory footprint it uses and updates for > mono used to break beagle, and vice-versa. I hope that "tracker" gets > in Fedora 7 - and FAST. > > There is a fedora package so get it while it's hot! :) You have been able to do: yum install tracker for ages. Not that Tracker is up to par feature wise with Beagle yet so I really doubt the hype surrounding Tracker. - David Nielsen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 13 09:26:08 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:56:08 +0530 Subject: A better, faster desktop search for Linux! In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300704110457s511e8bd9ldfac418ed06c3bc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <461F4CB0.4080106@fedoraproject.org> Amadeus W.M. wrote: > > found it instantly. I don't even know when or how it indexed it. After > the initial indexing, tracker it's unnoticeable. Beagle was reasonable > when I was working on the computer, but would take up 100% of the > processor after some 10-20 minutes of inactivity. So I uninstalled > beagle. Tracker doesn't seem to do that. > > Too bad my nautilus is not tracker-enabled. I hope it will be in FC7 and > I hope tracker will come standard. In Fedora 7, nautilus is indeed tracker enabled. It checks at runtime whether tracker is installed and uses it in preference to Beagle. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 13 15:42:33 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:12:33 +0530 Subject: A better, faster desktop search for Linux! In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300704110457s511e8bd9ldfac418ed06c3bc7@mail.gmail.com> <461F4CB0.4080106@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <461FA4E9.6050908@fedoraproject.org> Amadeus W.M. wrote: >>> Too bad my nautilus is not tracker-enabled. I hope it will be in FC7 >>> and I hope tracker will come standard. >> In Fedora 7, nautilus is indeed tracker enabled. It checks at runtime >> whether tracker is installed and uses it in preference to Beagle. >> >> Rahul >> > > Excellent decision! Do you happen to know the differences under the hood > between beagle and tracker? Why does tracker do what it does with far > less cpu power? I remember beagle had something to do with mono? Tracker supports less formats for metadata searches than Beagle and is written in C while Beagle is written in mono. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 13 20:30:48 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 02:00:48 +0530 Subject: A better, faster desktop search for Linux! In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300704110457s511e8bd9ldfac418ed06c3bc7@mail.gmail.com> <461F4CB0.4080106@fedoraproject.org> <461FA4E9.6050908@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <461FE878.1040706@fedoraproject.org> Amadeus W.M. wrote: > Not trying to be pedantic here, but If I remember correctly, mono is one > open source alternative to .net, isn't it? Mono is not a programming > language. C# is. Right. I was just going along with your lingo and not be pedantic ;-) Other than fewer formats and different languages, do > they use the same algorithms? Nope. Rahul From rtlm10 at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 18:28:36 2007 From: rtlm10 at gmail.com (Russell Harrison) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:28:36 -0400 Subject: A better, faster desktop search for Linux! In-Reply-To: <1176311718.3209.186.camel@dawkins> References: <64b14b300704110457s511e8bd9ldfac418ed06c3bc7@mail.gmail.com> <1176311718.3209.186.camel@dawkins> Message-ID: <1ed4a0130704161128x6cc2a445l83bd3f03bf7d41f5@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/07, David Nielsen wrote: > You have been able to do: yum install tracker for ages. Not that Tracker > is up to par feature wise with Beagle yet so I really doubt the hype > surrounding Tracker. > Tracker simply doesn't support as many file formats as Beagle. As far as speed and footprint however it blows the doors off Beagle. When I disable all the backends that tracker doesn't support in Beagle, it still can't come near the speeds Tracker has. I really hope more people start giving Tracker so attention so it can support the same number of formats. As soon as email indexing is out in a stable version I'll be turning off Beagle entirely. Right now I'm running both. :-/ ---- Russell Harrison Systems Administrator -- Linux Desktops Cisco Systems, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 14:14:14 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:14:14 +0200 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. Message-ID: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> I install a fresh Fedora7 (test 3) then run web browser and go to fedora magazine page - from there I download some video ogg files from it. Why is it that when I click on the file I can't view the video? Player just crashes! And the default player is kamboodle! Why is that?!? That is the worst video player I have seen ever! On any platform! Opensource or not there is no excuse to put that player as the default one! Fedora 7 experience was a bit better than FC6 one - because in FC6 when I tried the same experiment I got an error message that ogg is a unknown format and system doesn't know how to open it! Great! And that was an OGG file with 0% proprietary fibers in it :) How do you expect to get people to use linux as a destop when the MOST simple multimedia desktop scenario doesn't work!?! If you can't play "official" video form redhat pages then this is a serious case of TERRIBLE multimedia desktop usability! I know about all the great effort that has gone into fedora releases, and I love it. It is the best linux distro for me, but I know how to set it up, iron out the quirks that mess up the destop experience and configure it for optimal work/play flow. But please, please make it a lot easier on non-geek people so that they can also use this great stuff called fedora. And belive me there are people wanting to do so, but they can't because we don't let them. They need some features to be enabled by default or else they won't know how that they even exist. So please change the default video player to totem or something else, just NOT kamboodle because it just doesn't work and it sucks GUI vise. Regarding proprietary video codecs RedHad developers just say something like this: "We talked with out lawyers and they said no." Ok? And? Where can we see this discussion? I know that you can't put MP3 support in fedora, but that you can't even put an link for some European server that has all the codecs? Lawyers say that RedHat can be sued even for puting links that enable multimedia. Ok, maybe I believe it but it is maybe possible that some one would sue, but hardly win that case. But there are legal ways around that, you can put a text saying that it is legal to enable multimedia codecs only if you live in a country that doesn't have software patents - like I do. It is possible if you want it - Ubuntu has shown that because they will be doing just that, and even a step beyond that. Ubuntu will have a Ubuntu for European market and other countries that don't have software patents (my country doesn't!) with all multimedia codecs embedded within the distro! So please let's start the discussion because believe me there is a great need for this because there are lot's media files that are every where (internet, youtube, divx rips of dvds, etc...) that people have a need to watch and listen. Hope to hear from Fedora/RedHat developers and Desktop usability experts what are their opinions. I will make this email available also on my blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ so you can leave/read comments there also. Valent - fiber optics and networking engineer from Croatia. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue Apr 17 14:36:50 2007 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:36:50 -0500 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Valent Turkovic wrote: > I install a fresh Fedora7 (test 3) then run web browser and go to > fedora magazine page - from there I download some video ogg files from > it. > > Why is it that when I click on the file I can't view the video? Player > just crashes! And the default player is kamboodle! Why is that?!? Agreed. Bad choice (actually, a lack of making a choice). Not only will kaboodle not be any default player in the final release, it likely won't be installed (by default anyway). Feel better? -- Rex From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Apr 17 14:50:57 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:50:57 +0100 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1176821457.30063.45.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Hello Valent, On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 16:14 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > I install a fresh Fedora7 (test 3) then run web browser and go to > fedora magazine page - from there I download some video ogg files from > it. > > Why is it that when I click on the file I can't view the video? Player > just crashes! And the default player is kamboodle! Why is that?!? That > is the worst video player I have seen ever! On any platform! > Opensource or not there is no excuse to put that player as the default > one! I believe you mean Kaboodle: http://www.hakubi.us/kaboodle/ > Fedora 7 experience was a bit better than FC6 one - because in FC6 > when I tried the same experiment I got an error message that ogg is a > unknown format and system doesn't know how to open it! And that was with Kaboodle again? > Great! And that was an OGG file with 0% proprietary fibers in it :) > How do you expect to get people to use linux as a destop when the MOST > simple multimedia desktop scenario doesn't work!?! Did you have a really bad day when you wrote that? :) > If you can't play "official" video form redhat pages then this is a > serious case of TERRIBLE multimedia desktop usability! Again, that's not very constructive. > I know about all the great effort that has gone into fedora releases, > and I love it. It is the best linux distro for me, but I know how to > set it up, iron out the quirks that mess up the destop experience and > configure it for optimal work/play flow. > > But please, please make it a lot easier on non-geek people so that > they can also use this great stuff called fedora. And belive me there > are people wanting to do so, but they can't because we don't let them. > They need some features to be enabled by default or else they won't > know how that they even exist. > > So please change the default video player to totem or something else, > just NOT kamboodle because it just doesn't work and it sucks GUI vise. You wouldn't have happened to do a KDE installation? Totem and Rhythmbox are, respectively, the default movie and music players in the GNOME installation. > Regarding proprietary video codecs RedHad developers just say > something like this: "We talked with out lawyers and they said no." > Ok? And? Where can we see this discussion? I know that you can't put > MP3 support in fedora, but that you can't even put an link for some > European server that has all the codecs? Lawyers say that RedHat can > be sued even for puting links that enable multimedia. Ok, maybe I > believe it but it is maybe possible that some one would sue, but > hardly win that case. > > But there are legal ways around that, you can put a text saying that > it is legal to enable multimedia codecs only if you live in a country > that doesn't have software patents - like I do. Canonical is a company registered on the Isle of Man, not a US company. > It is possible if you want it - Ubuntu has shown that because they > will be doing just that, and even a step beyond that. Ubuntu will have > a Ubuntu for European market and other countries that don't have > software patents (my country doesn't!) with all multimedia codecs > embedded within the distro! They don't have multiple versions, as far as I know, and they would have problems regarding the legality of shipping some of those patented codecs in the US. > So please let's start the discussion because believe me there is a > great need for this because there are lot's media files that are > every where (internet, youtube, divx rips of dvds, etc...) that people > have a need to watch and listen. What's the discussion about? Having a discussion won't change the legal stance of Fedora. > Hope to hear from Fedora/RedHat developers and Desktop usability > experts what are their opinions. Read the Fedora FAQ for some third-party ways of getting codecs: http://www.fedorafaq.org/ Cheers > I will make this email available also on my blog: > http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ > so you can leave/read comments there also. PS: You should use more exclamation marks. From caillon at redhat.com Tue Apr 17 15:07:01 2007 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:07:01 -0400 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4624E295.9010108@redhat.com> Valent Turkovic wrote: > I install a fresh Fedora7 (test 3) then run web browser and go to > fedora magazine page - from there I download some video ogg files from > it. > > Why is it that when I click on the file I can't view the video? Player > just crashes! And the default player is kamboodle! Why is that?!? That > is the worst video player I have seen ever! On any platform! > Opensource or not there is no excuse to put that player as the default > one! I'll note that you didn't choose the default Fedora disc, looks like you chose the Fedora-KDE spin instead. Kaboodle might have been a bad decision, but the KDE spin of Fedora hasn't been around for that long, so filing bugs like this is appreciated. If you're looking for something closer to FC6, I suggest the default install which IIRC has both GNOME and KDE packages. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 17:52:52 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:52:52 +0200 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300704171052v411af696kdb30fe49b4a05b98@mail.gmail.com> >My first take was to reply to this on the mailing list, but you cross-posted os that many lists >that the discuss can only be fragmented and unintelligible. Cross-posting is bad etiquette >and I won't do that. Sorry for that. I didn't post to mailing lists for years so I forgot some etiquettes :) But that was benevolent cross-post, because it is an issue that concerns all included parties. >> fedora magazine page >What is that? Do you mean http://www.redhatmagazine/ ? Yes, my mistake. >> Player just crashes! And the default player is kamboodle! Why is that?!? >I guess either a bad selection of packages at install time or a bug in a test release. Bugs >happen in test releases, this is their purpose. Normally, Totem should be the default video >player, and maybe Rhythmbox may be triggered to open an Ogg by accident, thinking it is >a music, not video file (because of te MIME type). "Bad selection of install packages"? Trust me it is not. I installed the default packages. Bug do happen, but this is more than a bug, because I gave an example how this issue was even worse in Fedora Core 6, and still is in the default FC6 install. This issue is mayor usability oversight, or a usability bug. >> Regarding proprietary video codecs >Have you read: >http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems#head-69c9770fc2ef79ea9a691d03aa2f475eed113bfa >http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Multimedia/MP3 Yes I have. And I knew enough about codecs and opensource and fedora before I wrote my post. I think the argument for codecs still stands. >And maybe don't know about http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureCodecBuddy I know about it but I still don't see it anywhere in Fedora 7 Test 3 !!! Please correct me if I'm wrong. And AFAIK feature freeze is now on for Fedora 7. >Directly linking from Fedora or an official Fedora website to http://rpm.livna.org is >considered "contributory infingement" There are "legal" issues but I bet that a good team of willing lawyers CAN come up with an solution. Like an legal statement or some EULA or something like that that users need to accept BEFORE linking to "rpm.livna.org" in order to make impossible for 3rd parties to sue RedHat for "contributory infingement". I'm not close to being a lawyer but I believe that can be legally done. >note: I also live in Europe Ok, technically I'm not in Europe :) Croatia is pending EU membership. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 17 18:18:13 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:48:13 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704171052v411af696kdb30fe49b4a05b98@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300704171052v411af696kdb30fe49b4a05b98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46250F65.5090103@fedoraproject.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > Bug do happen, but this is more than a bug, because I gave an example > how this issue was even worse in Fedora Core 6, and still is in the > default FC6 install. > This issue is mayor usability oversight, or a usability bug. Where was the bug report filed? If you are using a test release you should file bug reports instead or ranting. > I know about it but I still don't see it anywhere in Fedora 7 Test 3 > !!! Please correct me if I'm wrong. And AFAIK feature freeze is now on > for Fedora 7. This feature probably won't make it into the release and might be pushed as an update but feature freeze can have exceptions. See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering > There are "legal" issues but I bet that a good team of willing lawyers > CAN come up with an solution. Like an legal statement or some EULA or > something like that that users need to accept BEFORE linking to > "rpm.livna.org" in order to make impossible for 3rd parties to sue > RedHat for "contributory infingement". I'm not close to being a lawyer > but I believe that can be legally done. If you are not a lawyer avoid assuming what can be done. Red Hat has a legal team which has extensively looked into it and has concluded not worth the risk. Merely adding disclaimers won't solve the issue. This has been discussed multiple times before. Please avoid bringing it up repeatedly. It is not constructive. Rahul From pemboa at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 19:02:23 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:02:23 -0500 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16de708d0704171202m1dc2bf66o3f4c692e988851b1@mail.gmail.com> I have a few questions about this myself, what is the appropriate list to continue this thread on? -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 17 19:22:35 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 00:52:35 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <16de708d0704171202m1dc2bf66o3f4c692e988851b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704171202m1dc2bf66o3f4c692e988851b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46251E7B.1070702@fedoraproject.org> Arthur Pemberton wrote: > I have a few questions about this myself, what is the appropriate list > to continue this thread on? We can't really answer you if you don't tell us the questions. Rahul From stuart.cr at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 22:54:09 2007 From: stuart.cr at gmail.com (Rick Stuart) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:54:09 -0500 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. Message-ID: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> Valent Turkovic wrote: >> But please, please make it a lot easier on non-geek people so that >> they can also use this great stuff called fedora. And belive me there >> are people wanting to do so, but they can't because we don't let them. >> They need some features to be enabled by default or else they won't >> know how that they even exist. I feel like the real concern voiced by Valent Turkovic has been missed by all three of the responses I saw. What are we expecting the average Joe who wants to try out this cool new thing called Linux to feel? He can load it up and see a pretty twisty graphic but then can't get the simplest thing like web browsing to work without installing a lot of extra packages that are only obvious by a long Google search, abuse on the forums (RTFM) or a previous experience. If you are going to build a live CD (Excellent Idea by the way) for people to try out Linux, then concentrate on the total experience. Look at what "typical" users do and make sure they have success. Valent hit the nail on the head....KDE...GNOME....why should that matter? GNOME doesn't work any better with Totem BTW. -- Rick Stuart stuart.cr at gmail.com "Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy." From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 17 23:04:15 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 04:34:15 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4625526F.20008@fedoraproject.org> Rick Stuart wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > >> But please, please make it a lot easier on non-geek people so that > >> they can also use this great stuff called fedora. And belive me there > >> are people wanting to do so, but they can't because we don't let them. > >> They need some features to be enabled by default or else they won't > >> know how that they even exist. > > I feel like the real concern voiced by Valent Turkovic has been missed > by all three of the responses I saw. What are we expecting the average > Joe who wants to try out this cool new thing called Linux to feel? He > can load it up and see a pretty twisty graphic but then can't get the > simplest thing like web browsing to work without installing a lot of > extra packages that are only obvious by a long Google search, abuse on > the forums (RTFM) or a previous experience. That is a useful thing to keep in mind but when you are using test releases coming across bugs is not unexpected. Working with developers by reporting those bugs is more useful than calling things a disaster. Rahul From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Apr 18 00:11:37 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:11:37 -0400 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704172011.37388.jkeating@redhat.com> On Tuesday 17 April 2007 18:54:09 Rick Stuart wrote: > I feel like the real concern voiced by Valent Turkovic has been missed > by all three of the responses I saw. ?What are we expecting the average > Joe who wants to try out this cool new thing called Linux to feel? ?He > can load it up and see a pretty twisty graphic but then can't get the > simplest thing like web browsing to work without installing a lot of > extra packages that are only obvious by a long Google search, abuse on > the forums (RTFM) or a previous experience. > > If you are going to build a live CD (Excellent Idea by the way) for > people to try out Linux, then concentrate on the total experience. ?Look > at what "typical" users do and make sure they have success. ?Valent hit > the nail on the head....KDE...GNOME....why should that matter? ?GNOME > doesn't work any better with Totem BTW. These comments are unfounded. You certainly can browse the web all you want. If you run across a site that needs flash, firefix helpfully directs you to Adobe/macromedia where they have a rpm already for you that integrates nicely. And there is _plenty_ of web space out there without proprietary crap on them. To state that you can't do the simplest things like web browsing is a bunch of horse crap and FUD. Furthermore, Totem works just fine regardless of Gnome or KDE, the OP didn't _use_ totem. If you're going to send slanderous comments at least have the courtesy of backing them up with facts, proof, and bug numbers. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 08:23:44 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:23:44 +0200 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <4625526F.20008@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <4625526F.20008@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <64b14b300704180123m5a3b23b7g614e506b97b6bcb8@mail.gmail.com> > That is a useful thing to keep in mind but when you are using test > releases coming across bugs is not unexpected. Working with developers > by reporting those bugs is more useful than calling things a disaster. > > Rahul It was hard for me to write this proposal. Very hard. Because it forces change, and change is never welcomed. Because it's bold, and boldness tends to attract enmity. Because it's probably going to be ignored. And because it may add more complexity to an issue that is already complex. Also keep in mind that English is not my mother tongue. But in the end, I thought this issue was important, and here we are. >From what I've heard, whole flame wars regarding multimedia and average user desktop experience have happened before, and they led to nothing. Why not end this issue once and for all, and go on with more important matters? -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 08:25:46 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:25:46 +0200 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <4625526F.20008@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <4625526F.20008@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <64b14b300704180125i3df8a59eu8ef025023ff66027@mail.gmail.com> > by reporting those bugs is more useful than calling things a disaster. > > Rahul I also must point out that I really like Fedora the most of all other distros. And I think that Fedora/REdHat developers do a great job. But still some changes need to be done. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 08:48:52 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:48:52 +0200 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <16de708d0704171202m1dc2bf66o3f4c692e988851b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704171202m1dc2bf66o3f4c692e988851b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300704180148l6843695cg2ec4fbcbffb0f91a@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/07, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > I have a few questions about this myself, what is the appropriate list > to continue this thread on? http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis-dev/2007-January/018609.html Here you go. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Apr 18 08:58:21 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:58:21 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704180123m5a3b23b7g614e506b97b6bcb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <4625526F.20008@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300704180123m5a3b23b7g614e506b97b6bcb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4625DDAD.90801@nicubunu.ro> Valent Turkovic wrote: > > It was hard for me to write this proposal. Very hard. Because it > forces change, and change is never welcomed. Because it's bold, and > boldness tends to attract enmity. Because it's probably going to be > ignored. And because it may add more complexity to an issue that is > already complex. Also keep in mind that English is not my mother > tongue. No. Because it is not constructive and it does not say anything new that was not already said and countered. > But in the end, I thought this issue was important, and here we are. >> From what I've heard, whole flame wars regarding multimedia and > average user desktop experience have happened before, and they led to > nothing. Why not end this issue once and for all, and go on with more > important matters? A lot of things happened. For example with Fedora 7 is very easy for someone living in the "free world" to create a derivative spin and put in it whatever multimedia applications he want and redistribute it (probably under a different name), even as a LiveCD. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 09:09:48 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:09:48 +0200 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <200704172011.37388.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <200704172011.37388.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300704180209y1bbae936x94d52ea13d7cdbbd@mail.gmail.com> > These comments are unfounded. You certainly can browse the web all you want. > If you run across a site that needs flash, firefix helpfully directs you to > Adobe/macromedia where they have a rpm already for you that integrates > nicely. And there is _plenty_ of web space out there without proprietary > crap on them. To state that you can't do the simplest things like web > browsing is a bunch of horse crap and FUD. You should know what you are talking about, because when I tested this in Fedora 7 test 3 it doesn't work - and also it doesn't work in FC6. If you visit any page with flash content Firefox suggests installing Flash plugin from Adobe, but install fails every time. I filed a bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=236881 -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 09:24:09 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:24:09 +0200 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <200704172011.37388.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <200704172011.37388.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300704180224t61dff730sd88cd5845177b291@mail.gmail.com> > courtesy of backing them up with facts, proof, and bug numbers. I need a suggestion where to file my bug regarding kaboodle experience with being a default player for ogg theora files when it shouldn't be? Under which component should I post the bug under? -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From dotancohen at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 09:25:38 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:25:38 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> On 18/04/07, Rick Stuart wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > >> But please, please make it a lot easier on non-geek people so that > >> they can also use this great stuff called fedora. And belive me there > >> are people wanting to do so, but they can't because we don't let them. > >> They need some features to be enabled by default or else they won't > >> know how that they even exist. > > I feel like the real concern voiced by Valent Turkovic has been missed > by all three of the responses I saw. What are we expecting the average > Joe who wants to try out this cool new thing called Linux to feel? He > can load it up and see a pretty twisty graphic but then can't get the > simplest thing like web browsing to work without installing a lot of > extra packages that are only obvious by a long Google search, abuse on > the forums (RTFM) or a previous experience. > > If you are going to build a live CD (Excellent Idea by the way) for > people to try out Linux, then concentrate on the total experience. Look > at what "typical" users do and make sure they have success. Valent hit > the nail on the head....KDE...GNOME....why should that matter? GNOME > doesn't work any better with Totem BTW. That's actually a good argument for NOT releasing a live CD. I've always run by the rule that if I can't deliver what a customer (or woman) wants, then I don't do it at all. Why disappoint by explicitly demonstrating that you cannot deliver? If Fedora is bound by law NOT to deliver a comfortable user experience for those unfamiliar with it, then why is effort being exerted to make Fedora accessible to them via LiveCD? Who is the LiveCD intended for? What is it's purpose? If it's purpose is to show off Fedora to those unfamiliar with it, then what are we showing them? That they cannot play media files, that functionality has been removed from the standard Open Office, and such? Without so much as a link to the documentation that explains the situation, and what one can do to enable these features? Fedora is obviously a fast learning curve distro: one cannot simply walk right up to it and use it without some prior knowledge. Thus, creating a LiveCD and making it easy to walk right up and use it will only show these people that Fedora (and possible Linux in general) is difficult to use. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com http://what-is-what.com From pemboa at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 09:31:30 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 04:31:30 -0500 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen wrote: > On 18/04/07, Rick Stuart wrote: > > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > >> But please, please make it a lot easier on non-geek people so that > > >> they can also use this great stuff called fedora. And belive me there > > >> are people wanting to do so, but they can't because we don't let them. > > >> They need some features to be enabled by default or else they won't > > >> know how that they even exist. > > > > I feel like the real concern voiced by Valent Turkovic has been missed > > by all three of the responses I saw. What are we expecting the average > > Joe who wants to try out this cool new thing called Linux to feel? He > > can load it up and see a pretty twisty graphic but then can't get the > > simplest thing like web browsing to work without installing a lot of > > extra packages that are only obvious by a long Google search, abuse on > > the forums (RTFM) or a previous experience. > > > > If you are going to build a live CD (Excellent Idea by the way) for > > people to try out Linux, then concentrate on the total experience. Look > > at what "typical" users do and make sure they have success. Valent hit > > the nail on the head....KDE...GNOME....why should that matter? GNOME > > doesn't work any better with Totem BTW. > > That's actually a good argument for NOT releasing a live CD. I've > always run by the rule that if I can't deliver what a customer (or > woman) wants, then I don't do it at all. Why disappoint by explicitly > demonstrating that you cannot deliver? > > If Fedora is bound by law NOT to deliver a comfortable user experience > for those unfamiliar with it, then why is effort being exerted to make > Fedora accessible to them via LiveCD? > > Who is the LiveCD intended for? What is it's purpose? If it's purpose > is to show off Fedora to those unfamiliar with it, then what are we > showing them? That they cannot play media files, that functionality > has been removed from the standard Open Office, and such? Without so > much as a link to the documentation that explains the situation, and > what one can do to enable these features? > > Fedora is obviously a fast learning curve distro: one cannot simply > walk right up to it and use it without some prior knowledge. Thus, > creating a LiveCD and making it easy to walk right up and use it will > only show these people that Fedora (and possible Linux in general) is > difficult to use. > > Dotan Cohen +1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora? -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Apr 18 09:45:29 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:45:29 +0100 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1176889529.30063.90.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 17:54 -0500, Rick Stuart wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > If you are going to build a live CD (Excellent Idea by the way) for > people to try out Linux, then concentrate on the total experience. Look > at what "typical" users do and make sure they have success. Valent hit > the nail on the head....KDE...GNOME....why should that matter? GNOME > doesn't work any better with Totem BTW. If Totem doesn't work for you, then I'd certainly like to see the bugs. Most bugs I've seen are known problems, and we very seldomly receive new crashers. So any bug quashing help is appreciated. From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Apr 18 10:58:15 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 06:58:15 -0400 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704180209y1bbae936x94d52ea13d7cdbbd@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <200704172011.37388.jkeating@redhat.com> <64b14b300704180209y1bbae936x94d52ea13d7cdbbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704180658.19104.jkeating@redhat.com> On Wednesday 18 April 2007 05:09:48 Valent Turkovic wrote: > You should know what you are talking about, because when I tested this > in Fedora 7 test 3 it doesn't work - and also it doesn't work in FC6. > > If you visit any page with flash content Firefox suggests installing Flash > plugin from Adobe, but install fails every time. > > I filed a bug: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=236881 More information than "fails to install" would be nice. What is the failure report? Even a screenshot? -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Apr 18 10:58:46 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 06:58:46 -0400 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704180224t61dff730sd88cd5845177b291@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <200704172011.37388.jkeating@redhat.com> <64b14b300704180224t61dff730sd88cd5845177b291@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704180658.46763.jkeating@redhat.com> On Wednesday 18 April 2007 05:24:09 Valent Turkovic wrote: > I need a suggestion where to file my bug regarding kaboodle experience > with being a default player for ogg theora files when it shouldn't be? > > Under which component should I post the bug under? kaboodle in Fedora Extras, however it won't be the "default" player of any spin for F7. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Apr 18 11:00:12 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:00:12 -0400 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> On Wednesday 18 April 2007 05:31:30 Arthur Pemberton wrote: > +1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, > and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest > Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to > change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar > with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the > hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What > are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora? No software is perfect, and surprise you can use yum from the LiveCD to add more software. There are plenty of usage cases outside the "I want to listen to mp3s" crowd. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dotancohen at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 12:50:00 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:50:00 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> On 18/04/07, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wednesday 18 April 2007 05:31:30 Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > +1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, > > and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest > > Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to > > change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar > > with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the > > hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What > > are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora? > > No software is perfect, and surprise you can use yum from the LiveCD to add > more software. > > There are plenty of usage cases outside the "I want to listen to mp3s" crowd. > Very common workflows (or playflows) include the following: 1) Web browsing: the viewing of HTML pages 2) Email: the downloading, display, and sending of electronic mail 3) Chatting: communicating with other humans via one (or more) or the following chat protocols: yahoo, msn, icq 4) Listening to audio: the playback of mp3 files 5) Watching video: the playback of mpg, avi, and wmv files 6) Viewing pictures: the display of jpeg files 7) Word Processing: creating, editing, and display of text documents in txt, rtf, and doc formats 8) Spreadsheet: creating, editing, and display of spreadsheets in excel format I'm sure there's more that I missed. But these are examples of the most basic functions that any computer (and operating system) are expected to perform. If an OS cannot do any of these, then it is not adequate for general use. Fedora is thus bound by law to be inadequate for general use out of the box. That is easily fixed by those in the know, but not by a passer-by who downloads the distro (or LiveCD) and plays around with it. Again I ask: to whom is the official LiveCD aimed at? I do not think that Redhat can (legally) produce a LiveCD suitable for the general public. Rather, this is better left to the community, who are not bound by such restrictive laws, and can legally create and distribute such a disk. The only question for Redhat is should Redhat allow the community to use the Fedora name on the disk. Dotan Cohen http://technology-sleuth.com/short_answer/why_are_internet_greeting_cards_dangerous.html http://what-is-what.com/what_is/wikipedia.html From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Apr 18 13:16:03 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:16:03 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> Dotan Cohen wrote: > > Very common workflows (or playflows) include the following: > > 1) Web browsing: the viewing of HTML pages > 2) Email: the downloading, display, and sending of electronic mail > 3) Chatting: communicating with other humans via one (or more) or the > following chat protocols: yahoo, msn, icq > 4) Listening to audio: the playback of mp3 files > 5) Watching video: the playback of mpg, avi, and wmv files > 6) Viewing pictures: the display of jpeg files > 7) Word Processing: creating, editing, and display of text documents > in txt, rtf, and doc formats > 8) Spreadsheet: creating, editing, and display of spreadsheets in excel > format > > I'm sure there's more that I missed. But these are examples of the > most basic functions that any computer (and operating system) are > expected to perform. If an OS cannot do any of these, then it is not > adequate for general use. Fedora is thus bound by law to be inadequate Your judgment is flawed: Windows Vista can't do a lot of those tasks out of the box and need additional software which have to be downloaded or purchased separately (to pick from your list: spreadsheets, video files with certain codecs or in certain formats, some chat protocols). You are also unfair with your criteria, the conditions are formulated to fit your predefined conclusion: - for chat you request "one or more of the" (BTW, you forgot Jaber/Google Talk from the list) - for video you request all formats (mpg, avi, wmv) - for audio you request one specific format, MP3, but forget about AAC, WAV, OGG, Audio CD - those are also audio (note that Fedora 7 should have preconfigured OOTB a few OGG internet radio stations). > for general use out of the box. That is easily fixed by those in the > know, but not by a passer-by who downloads the distro (or LiveCD) and > plays around with it. This could be said also for any other operating system > Again I ask: to whom is the official LiveCD aimed at? I do not think > that Redhat can (legally) produce a LiveCD suitable for the general > public. Rather, this is better left to the community, who are not > bound by such restrictive laws, and can legally create and distribute > such a disk. The only question for Redhat is should Redhat allow the > community to use the Fedora name on the disk. There was a lot of talk about what can be a derived distro and still keep the Fedora name, one of the ideas was that it have to be a subset of Core + Extras, but I don't remember the conclusion. You know, it can have a different name and put on the disk "gOldSense, based on Fedora" - you know, as gNewSense is a freer version of Ubuntu, gOldSense could be a less free version of Fedora :p -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From dotancohen at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 14:00:42 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:00:42 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> On 18/04/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > > > Very common workflows (or playflows) include the following: > > > > 1) Web browsing: the viewing of HTML pages > > 2) Email: the downloading, display, and sending of electronic mail > > 3) Chatting: communicating with other humans via one (or more) or the > > following chat protocols: yahoo, msn, icq > > 4) Listening to audio: the playback of mp3 files > > 5) Watching video: the playback of mpg, avi, and wmv files > > 6) Viewing pictures: the display of jpeg files > > 7) Word Processing: creating, editing, and display of text documents > > in txt, rtf, and doc formats > > 8) Spreadsheet: creating, editing, and display of spreadsheets in excel > > format > > > > I'm sure there's more that I missed. But these are examples of the > > most basic functions that any computer (and operating system) are > > expected to perform. If an OS cannot do any of these, then it is not > > adequate for general use. Fedora is thus bound by law to be inadequate > > Your judgment is flawed: Windows Vista can't do a lot of those tasks out > of the box and need additional software which have to be downloaded or > purchased separately (to pick from your list: spreadsheets, video files > with certain codecs or in certain formats, some chat protocols). That does not make my judgment flawed: I never implied that Vista is an adequate operating system. > You are also unfair with your criteria, the conditions are formulated to > fit your predefined conclusion: > - for chat you request "one or more of the" (BTW, you forgot > Jaber/Google Talk from the list) I mentioned that I've most certainly forgot some things. However, Jaber is nowhere near as popular as msn/icq/yahoo are. > - for video you request all formats (mpg, avi, wmv) Those are very, very common. > - for audio you request one specific format, MP3, but forget about AAC, > WAV, OGG, Audio CD - those are also audio (note that Fedora 7 should > have preconfigured OOTB a few OGG internet radio stations). AAC and OGG are not common formats. I should have mentioned wav, audio CD and wma. > > for general use out of the box. That is easily fixed by those in the > > know, but not by a passer-by who downloads the distro (or LiveCD) and > > plays around with it. > > This could be said also for any other operating system Correct. Ubuntu and XP (I can't talk for Vista), however, make an effort to inform the user how to set up the system to use the formats with the OS. Ubuntu goes so far as to ask "would you like me to install mp3 support?" right inside Amarok. Click Yes, and it goes and fetches the codec, installs it, and plays the file in under 45 seconds (I timed it the second time I did it). I understand that Fedora cannot legally do this. Which is why I say don't push Fedora to the general user. IE, don't create a LiveCD. > > Again I ask: to whom is the official LiveCD aimed at? I do not think > > that Redhat can (legally) produce a LiveCD suitable for the general > > public. Rather, this is better left to the community, who are not > > bound by such restrictive laws, and can legally create and distribute > > such a disk. The only question for Redhat is should Redhat allow the > > community to use the Fedora name on the disk. > > There was a lot of talk about what can be a derived distro and still > keep the Fedora name, one of the ideas was that it have to be a subset > of Core + Extras, but I don't remember the conclusion. I remember that. I also don't remember the conclusion (I don't think there was one) but it's irrelevant to this thread. > You know, it can have a different name and put on the disk "gOldSense, > based on Fedora" - you know, as gNewSense is a freer version of Ubuntu, > gOldSense could be a less free version of Fedora :p > Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/lyrics/64/64/beatles/a_hard_day_s_night.html http://terriblelyrics.com From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 14:02:40 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:02:40 +0200 Subject: I want to help get suspend/resume working. Message-ID: <64b14b300704180702g3053807dm55bf9b436a84773f@mail.gmail.com> I want to help Fedora team supporting a few laptops I own so they get suspend/resume working. I tested one in Fedora 7 test 3 and it suspends but doesn't resume - but the same laptop works with suspend/resume in OpenSuse 10.2 so I hope it is really simple to get it working in Fedora 7. To who do I need to talk to? Which mailing list? Maybe a bugzilla report? What is the procedure for users that want to help make their and others laptops work better with Fedora? Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Apr 18 14:12:33 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:12:33 +0100 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1176905553.32379.30.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Wed, 2007-04-18 at 17:00 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: > On 18/04/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > - for audio you request one specific format, MP3, but forget about AAC, > > WAV, OGG, Audio CD - those are also audio (note that Fedora 7 should > > have preconfigured OOTB a few OGG internet radio stations). > > AAC and OGG are not common formats. I should have mentioned wav, audio > CD and wma. What makes you say AAC isn't popular? It's used in the PSP/iPod downloads on Google Video, it's the default audio codec for MPEG-4 and newer QuickTime versions. Anything coming out of Apple is AAC audio. I'd consider it popular... From dotancohen at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 14:30:41 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:30:41 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <1176905553.32379.30.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> <1176905553.32379.30.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <880dece00704180730j35169191ke5d44c79be9551f1@mail.gmail.com> On 18/04/07, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Wed, 2007-04-18 at 17:00 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: > > On 18/04/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > > > - for audio you request one specific format, MP3, but forget about AAC, > > > WAV, OGG, Audio CD - those are also audio (note that Fedora 7 should > > > have preconfigured OOTB a few OGG internet radio stations). > > > > AAC and OGG are not common formats. I should have mentioned wav, audio > > CD and wma. > > What makes you say AAC isn't popular? It's used in the PSP/iPod > downloads on Google Video, it's the default audio codec for MPEG-4 and > newer QuickTime versions. > > Anything coming out of Apple is AAC audio. I'd consider it popular... > Alright, for arguments sake we'll add it to the list. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/317/lonestar.html http://what-is-what.com/what_is/xml.html From blizzard at redhat.com Wed Apr 18 15:43:50 2007 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:43:50 -0400 Subject: I want to help get suspend/resume working. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704180702g3053807dm55bf9b436a84773f@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704180702g3053807dm55bf9b436a84773f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1176911030.27399.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-04-18 at 16:02 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > I want to help Fedora team supporting a few laptops I own so they get > suspend/resume working. I tested one in Fedora 7 test 3 and it > suspends but doesn't resume - but the same laptop works with > suspend/resume in OpenSuse 10.2 so I hope it is really simple to get > it working in Fedora 7. > > To who do I need to talk to? Which mailing list? Maybe a bugzilla > report? What is the procedure for users that want to help make their > and others laptops work better with Fedora? There's the fedora-kernel list: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-kernel-list/ I also suggest Peter Jones who owns a lot of the power management userland stuff and Adam Jackson for X issues. --Chris From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 18 15:53:12 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:23:12 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> Arthur Pemberton wrote: > +1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, > and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest > Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to > change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar > with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the > hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What > are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora? Live CD is useful since it is a single disk that you can distribute and get a reasonably good GNOME and KDE desktop. Perfect? no, but it is definitely getting better with every version overall. Rahul From dotancohen at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 16:02:16 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 19:02:16 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <880dece00704180902h351a132yba7478511696edb5@mail.gmail.com> On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > > +1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, > > and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest > > Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to > > change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar > > with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the > > hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What > > are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora? > > Live CD is useful since it is a single disk that you can distribute and > get a reasonably good GNOME and KDE desktop. Perfect? no, but it is > definitely getting better with every version overall. > > > Rahul > What does it provide that Knoppix/Slax does not? Or is RH doing this "because they can"? Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/603/a-camp.html http://what-is-what.com/what_is/unix.html From pemboa at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 16:20:55 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:20:55 -0500 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <16de708d0704180920o1e9d7270s645e2a56460b262d@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > > +1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, > > and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest > > Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to > > change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar > > with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the > > hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What > > are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora? > > Live CD is useful since it is a single disk that you can distribute and > get a reasonably good GNOME and KDE desktop. Perfect? no, but it is > definitely getting better with every version overall. Well that is only really half a reason, since a live cd will likely only have one DE. But one cd intalltion is the only real benefit i can think of so far. -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From pemboa at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 16:18:58 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:18:58 -0500 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16de708d0704180918p1ac0853dnd13ece9cd658bc13@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen wrote: > On 18/04/07, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Wednesday 18 April 2007 05:31:30 Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > > +1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, > > > and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest > > > Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to > > > change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar > > > with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the > > > hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What > > > are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora? > > > > No software is perfect, and surprise you can use yum from the LiveCD to add > > more software. > > > > There are plenty of usage cases outside the "I want to listen to mp3s" crowd. > > > > Very common workflows (or playflows) include the following: > > 1) Web browsing: the viewing of HTML pages Will only be able to view non media rich pages > 2) Email: the downloading, display, and sending of electronic mail Should work, assuming no wifi > 3) Chatting: communicating with other humans via one (or more) or the > following chat protocols: yahoo, msn, icq Should work, assuming no wifi > 4) Listening to audio: the playback of mp3 files Won't work > 5) Watching video: the playback of mpg, avi, and wmv files Won't work, except for .ogg > 6) Viewing pictures: the display of jpeg files Should work > 7) Word Processing: creating, editing, and display of text documents Should work, sans abilty to embed media files > in txt, rtf, and doc formats > 8) Spreadsheet: creating, editing, and display of spreadsheets in excel format Should work, but minus some upstream functionality > I'm sure there's more that I missed. But these are examples of the > most basic functions that any computer (and operating system) are > expected to perform. If an OS cannot do any of these, then it is not > adequate for general use. Fedora is thus bound by law to be inadequate > for general use out of the box. That is easily fixed by those in the > know, but not by a passer-by who downloads the distro (or LiveCD) and > plays around with it. > > Again I ask: to whom is the official LiveCD aimed at? I do not think > that Redhat can (legally) produce a LiveCD suitable for the general > public. Rather, this is better left to the community, who are not > bound by such restrictive laws, and can legally create and distribute > such a disk. The only question for Redhat is should Redhat allow the > community to use the Fedora name on the disk. > > Dotan Cohen > > http://technology-sleuth.com/short_answer/why_are_internet_greeting_cards_dangerous.html > http://what-is-what.com/what_is/wikipedia.html > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 18 16:42:53 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:12:53 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704180902h351a132yba7478511696edb5@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704180902h351a132yba7478511696edb5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46264A8D.2080200@fedoraproject.org> Dotan Cohen wrote: > What does it provide that Knoppix/Slax does not? Or is RH doing this > "because they can"? > It provides a way to distribute Fedora as Live image which many end users find useful and have repeatedly asked for. Of course we do it because we can. Do you have a problem with that? Rahul From katzj at redhat.com Wed Apr 18 16:52:09 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:52:09 -0400 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <16de708d0704180918p1ac0853dnd13ece9cd658bc13@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180918p1ac0853dnd13ece9cd658bc13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1176915129.15165.24.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2007-04-18 at 11:18 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen wrote: > > 2) Email: the downloading, display, and sending of electronic mail > > Should work, assuming no wifi > > > 3) Chatting: communicating with other humans via one (or more) or the > > following chat protocols: yahoo, msn, icq > > Should work, assuming no wifi FWIW, wifi should be better in a lot of cases for F7. ipw2x00 works nicely, ipw3945 is limping along (though recently regressed). Firmware for a few other cards is currently under review and will hopefully get straightened out in the near future. Jeremy From oisin.feeley at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 17:04:51 2007 From: oisin.feeley at gmail.com (Oisin Feeley) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:04:51 -0400 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704180902h351a132yba7478511696edb5@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704180902h351a132yba7478511696edb5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen wrote: > On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > > > > +1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, > > > and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest > > > Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to > > > change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar > > > with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the > > > hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What > > > are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora? > > > > Live CD is useful since it is a single disk that you can distribute and > > get a reasonably good GNOME and KDE desktop. Perfect? no, but it is > > definitely getting better with every version overall. > > > > > > Rahul > > > > What does it provide that Knoppix/Slax does not? Or is RH doing this > "because they can"? There's a specific livecd list where these issues have been discussed extensively in the past. Among the reasons advanced for producing a LiveCD have been: * Deployment without an install -- this can be useful for people that don't want to mess with anaconda for some reason, it can allow creating a snapshot of rawhide to test resolution of ongoing issues https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-livecd-list/2005-June/msg00006.html It can also allow very quick and easy reimaging if there's some problem (yes, I know kickstart is an ideal solution for this, but if you don't want to learn it then you can just put a CD in each machine and hit the reset button if you suspect that it's been messed with -- no, I wouldn't do it that way but it's a usage-case that some people want) * It allows instant re-creation of a familiar workspace in a new environment https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-livecd-list/2005-June/msg00009.html * Quick and easy testing of unfamiliar hardware to see if it will work well with Fedora -- as regards this as far as I'm concerned I'd welcome an early indication that a motherboard contains some non-Free garbage hardware that's going to be a pain to maintain in the future. All the above and more have been discussed extensively and with convincing examples and rationales on the appropriate list. This conversation seems like noise from people that haven't bothered to research the issue. Please, end this thread. Oisin Feeley From dotancohen at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 17:33:16 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:33:16 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46264A8D.2080200@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704180902h351a132yba7478511696edb5@mail.gmail.com> <46264A8D.2080200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <880dece00704181033x166a75dat35592ee5a717d732@mail.gmail.com> On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > > What does it provide that Knoppix/Slax does not? Or is RH doing this > > "because they can"? > > > > It provides a way to distribute Fedora as Live image which many end > users find useful and have repeatedly asked for. Of course we do it > because we can. Do you have a problem with that? > > Rahul > Rahul, I have no problem with doing something because one can. Man walked on the moon because 'he could', and in the process technology had been advanced in ways that profit every walk of life. I have repeatedly expressed the need for a one (or at least not _five_) disk install. However, I don't think that Fedora should be used to introduce people to Linux (reasons given in previous email), and that's a very likely scenario for a LiveCD. That is a situation that must be considered. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com/what_is/network.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/168/dr_dre.html From ml at deadbabylon.de Wed Apr 18 17:45:28 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 19:45:28 +0200 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704181033x166a75dat35592ee5a717d732@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704180902h351a132yba7478511696edb5@mail.gmail.com> <46264A8D.2080200@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181033x166a75dat35592ee5a717d732@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070418194528.5f1e41bb@localhost.localdomain> Am Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:33:16 +0300 schrieb "Dotan Cohen" : > However, I don't think that Fedora should be used to > introduce people to Linux (reasons given in previous email), and > that's a very likely scenario for a LiveCD. That is a situation that > must be considered. Nobody is forcing you to use fedora to introduce people to linux. If the livecds doesn't fit _your_ needs - don't use it. But please, let us use the cds if we want to. Thanks. Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 18 17:47:43 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:17:43 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704181033x166a75dat35592ee5a717d732@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704180902h351a132yba7478511696edb5@mail.gmail.com> <46264A8D.2080200@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181033x166a75dat35592ee5a717d732@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <462659BF.8010202@fedoraproject.org> Dotan Cohen wrote: However, I don't think that Fedora should be used to > introduce people to Linux (reasons given in previous email), and > that's a very likely scenario for a LiveCD. That is a situation that > must be considered. We are not going to prevent people from using Fedora Live images to introduce Linux to people. I think that's a valid use case. There are certainly some usability gaps which we need to solve (while not moving away from the goal of not including proprietary software by default) There are several other use cases for a live cd which others have explained in detail. What are expecting us to do precisely? I believe that Live CD's are in general a useful thing for Fedora to have and that is something that is very much enforced by the positive feedback that we got from the release of Fedora Core 6 Live CD. Fedora 7 will have a x86 GNOME Live CD, x86-64 GNOME Live DVD and a x86 KDE Live CD all of which are installable. The tools to produce different variants are part of the Fedora repository now and uses simple kickstart configuration files. I think all of that is of immense value to end users and system administrators. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 18 18:08:14 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:38:14 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> Dotan Cohen wrote: > Correct. Ubuntu and XP (I can't talk for Vista), however, make an > effort to inform the user how to set up the system to use the formats > with the OS. Ubuntu goes so far as to ask "would you like me to > install mp3 support?" right inside Amarok. Click Yes, and it goes and > fetches the codec, installs it, and plays the file in under 45 seconds > (I timed it the second time I did it). I understand that Fedora cannot > legally do this. We *can* legally do this. There are atleast two ways. 1) Include proprietary software by default which we don't want to do but not for legal reasons. 2) Optionally provide them a way to install software like how Firefox installs flash plugin. The MP3 codec from Fluendo has a patent license and is under the MIT X11 license and available for free for example. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureCodecBuddy Which is why I say don't push Fedora to the general > user. IE, don't create a LiveCD. You equate Live CD with a very specific use case while there are many others you have not considered at all. >> There was a lot of talk about what can be a derived distro and still >> keep the Fedora name, one of the ideas was that it have to be a subset >> of Core + Extras, but I don't remember the conclusion. > > I remember that. I also don't remember the conclusion (I don't think > there was one) but it's irrelevant to this thread. We did have a conclusion. If you include any combination of official Fedora packages and want to have to do a official release talk to Fedora Project Board. Unofficial releases can be done by anyone. The fact tools like Pungi and live cd tools are part of Fedora and allow anyone to create Fedora variants easily is a very relevant part of this discussion. Rahul From dotancohen at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 18:36:44 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:36:44 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > > Correct. Ubuntu and XP (I can't talk for Vista), however, make an > > effort to inform the user how to set up the system to use the formats > > with the OS. Ubuntu goes so far as to ask "would you like me to > > install mp3 support?" right inside Amarok. Click Yes, and it goes and > > fetches the codec, installs it, and plays the file in under 45 seconds > > (I timed it the second time I did it). I understand that Fedora cannot > > legally do this. > > We *can* legally do this. There are atleast two ways. > > 1) Include proprietary software by default which we don't want to do but > not for legal reasons. > > 2) Optionally provide them a way to install software like how Firefox > installs flash plugin. The MP3 codec from Fluendo has a patent license > and is under the MIT X11 license and available for free for example. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureCodecBuddy > Excellent. This is much needed, and will make Fedora much more accessable. > > Which is why I say don't push Fedora to the general > > user. IE, don't create a LiveCD. > > You equate Live CD with a very specific use case while there are many > others you have not considered at all. Of course I consider the other uses. I personally use Fedora at home but carry a Slax disk with me so I can do something useful with the few university machines that I've identified with no password on the bios. But a Fedora LiveCD will be used to show off Linux to potential converts, and Fedora specifically is not good for that purpose (no media support, etc). However, the CodecBuddy may very well be the answer to that. I'm being stuborn because I've turned a few people on to Linux, and I know that Fedora is a bad first experience. Don't get me wrong: I use Fedora at home after toying with SUSE, [K]Ubuntu, and a few others. I simply love Fedora. Fedora ships with the latest stable Digikam, KDE, etc... everything but Firefox. Therefore Fedora has features other distros simply cannot match while retaining Fedora's (relative) stability. However, those new to Linux need mp3 support, amoung other things that stock Fedora cannot legally provide. Exposing these people to Fedora will scare them away from Linux in general. > >> There was a lot of talk about what can be a derived distro and still > >> keep the Fedora name, one of the ideas was that it have to be a subset > >> of Core + Extras, but I don't remember the conclusion. > > > > I remember that. I also don't remember the conclusion (I don't think > > there was one) but it's irrelevant to this thread. > > We did have a conclusion. If you include any combination of official > Fedora packages and want to have to do a official release talk to Fedora > Project Board. Unofficial releases can be done by anyone. The fact > tools like Pungi and live cd tools are part of Fedora and allow anyone > to create Fedora variants easily is a very relevant part of this discussion. I was referring to unofficial releases. I wasn't sure if unofficial releases could use the name Fedora. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com/what_is/open_source.html http://technology-sleuth.com/long_answer/what_is_a_cellphone.html From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 18 18:46:26 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 00:16:26 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> Dotan Cohen wrote: > I'm being stuborn because I've turned a few people on to Linux, and I > know that Fedora is a bad first experience. Don't get me wrong: I use > Fedora at home after toying with SUSE, [K]Ubuntu, and a few others. I > simply love Fedora. Fedora ships with the latest stable Digikam, KDE, > etc... everything but Firefox. Therefore Fedora has features other > distros simply cannot match while retaining Fedora's (relative) > stability. However, those new to Linux need mp3 support, amoung other > things that stock Fedora cannot legally provide. Exposing these people > to Fedora will scare them away from Linux in general. SUSE or Ubuntu does not play any proprietary codecs by default nor do install proprietary drivers. Fedora is very much in par in these cases and sometimes a better introduction. Compiz integration for example was much better in Fedora which Ubuntu has copied over in their upcoming release. At any rate the introduction of live images does not change the composition of software included in this context. Again, What exactly is it that you want us to do? > I was referring to unofficial releases. I wasn't sure if unofficial > releases could use the name Fedora. If you redistributing it and if you include third party software you have to rebrand your image. Private use is fine in any form. I think live image tools has a feature in it's roadmap to do this easily. Rahul From dotancohen at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 19:03:07 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:03:07 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > > I'm being stuborn because I've turned a few people on to Linux, and I > > know that Fedora is a bad first experience. Don't get me wrong: I use > > Fedora at home after toying with SUSE, [K]Ubuntu, and a few others. I > > simply love Fedora. Fedora ships with the latest stable Digikam, KDE, > > etc... everything but Firefox. Therefore Fedora has features other > > distros simply cannot match while retaining Fedora's (relative) > > stability. However, those new to Linux need mp3 support, amoung other > > things that stock Fedora cannot legally provide. Exposing these people > > to Fedora will scare them away from Linux in general. > > SUSE or Ubuntu does not play any proprietary codecs by default nor do > install proprietary drivers. Fedora is very much in par in these cases > and sometimes a better introduction. Compiz integration for example was > much better in Fedora which Ubuntu has copied over in their upcoming > release. At any rate the introduction of live images does not change the > composition of software included in this context. Again, What exactly > is it that you want us to do? Kubuntu 6.10 most certainly does install proprietary codecs upon demand, right inside Amarok. Very slick, and it is a make-or-break deal for a lot of new users. Compiz in Fedora is certainly true, but eye-candy is not a deal maker-or-breaker. I entered the discussion not with the intention of telling you what to do, rather, to make you aware of the possibility of scaring people away with it. The inclusion of said CodecBuddy will likely change that. > > I was referring to unofficial releases. I wasn't sure if unofficial > > releases could use the name Fedora. > > If you redistributing it and if you include third party software you > have to rebrand your image. Private use is fine in any form. I think > live image tools has a feature in it's roadmap to do this easily. I don't intend on distributing a LiveCD of my own, which is why I said that the point is currently irrelevant. Though, I may just spin one to learn a bit. Dotan Cohen http://technology-sleuth.com/technical_answer/what_is_a_router.html http://music-liriks.com From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 18 19:16:29 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 00:46:29 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> Dotan Cohen wrote: > > Kubuntu 6.10 most certainly does install proprietary codecs upon > demand, right inside Amarok. That does not contradict what I said. I was only talking about software included by default. Do you think that previous of Kubuntu or all versions of OpenSUSE "scared" people? Very slick, and it is a make-or-break > deal for a lot of new users. Compiz in Fedora is certainly true, but > eye-candy is not a deal maker-or-breaker. Sure it is for many people. Just visit some popular Linux related websites and read the news or comments. > I entered the discussion not with the intention of telling you what to > do, rather, to make you aware of the possibility of scaring people > away with it. The inclusion of said CodecBuddy will likely change > that. A few mails back you explicitly said several times that you wanted us to drop creating a Live image. I guess you changed your opinion. Now that we are aware of your opinion that some users might get "scared" ,how does a introduction of a Live CD change anything? Those very same people might have tried non-live CD versions and had the same effect. Rahul From davidz at redhat.com Wed Apr 18 19:42:27 2007 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:42:27 -0400 Subject: off topic warning (Was Re: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why.) In-Reply-To: <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1176925347.2827.62.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Hi, This list of for discussions about *development* for the Fedora desktop, not whether people thinks live CD's are effective for the mission of the project or similar. Can you please take this thread elsewhere? Thanks! David From pemboa at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 20:18:17 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:18:17 -0500 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704181033x166a75dat35592ee5a717d732@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704180902h351a132yba7478511696edb5@mail.gmail.com> <46264A8D.2080200@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181033x166a75dat35592ee5a717d732@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16de708d0704181318s251018cxe8648f23798f28eb@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen wrote: > On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > > > > What does it provide that Knoppix/Slax does not? Or is RH doing this > > > "because they can"? > > > > > > > It provides a way to distribute Fedora as Live image which many end > > users find useful and have repeatedly asked for. Of course we do it > > because we can. Do you have a problem with that? > > > > Rahul > > > > Rahul, I have no problem with doing something because one can. Man > walked on the moon because 'he could', and in the process technology > had been advanced in ways that profit every walk of life. I have > repeatedly expressed the need for a one (or at least not _five_) disk > install. However, I don't think that Fedora should be used to > introduce people to Linux (reasons given in previous email), and > that's a very likely scenario for a LiveCD. That is a situation that > must be considered. > > Dotan Cohen Dotan, I think I share your opinions on the LiveCD. Especially after going through issues with the last two people I recommended Fedora to, I fear I may have turned them off linux for awhile. Nevertheless, might I suggest a wait-and-see approach to further discussion against the LiveCD - hopefully the Fedora project will collect some statistics as to how successfully it is. Personally, I think Fedora could better benifit from pioneering ease and versatility of installation, since no other OS seems to have anything that great in terms of installation yet, but that' my $0.02 which doesn't even have time to implement said idea. -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From dotancohen at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 05:51:32 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:51:32 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > > > Kubuntu 6.10 most certainly does install proprietary codecs upon > > demand, right inside Amarok. > > That does not contradict what I said. I was only talking about software > included by default. Do you think that previous of Kubuntu or all > versions of OpenSUSE "scared" people? [K]ubuntu had always had the goal of being simple for new users, a goal that I understand is not on Fedora's priority agenda. > Very slick, and it is a make-or-break > > deal for a lot of new users. Compiz in Fedora is certainly true, but > > eye-candy is not a deal maker-or-breaker. > > Sure it is for many people. Just visit some popular Linux related > websites and read the news or comments. Doesn't seem so, but games certainly do. > > I entered the discussion not with the intention of telling you what to > > do, rather, to make you aware of the possibility of scaring people > > away with it. The inclusion of said CodecBuddy will likely change > > that. > > A few mails back you explicitly said several times that you wanted us to > drop creating a Live image. I guess you changed your opinion. Now that > we are aware of your opinion that some users might get "scared" ,how > does a introduction of a Live CD change anything? Those very same people > might have tried non-live CD versions and had the same effect. Yes, the inclusion of CodecBuddy will certainly help remove the impression that Linux is only for CS majors, geeks, and those who wish to learn a new profession in order to operate thier computer. I repeat, I'm all for the advancement of Fedora, but I'm against blindly jumping into things that may have a negative effect. It was important to me to display a scenario where the LiveCD may actually hurt the advancement of Fedora. CodecBuddy is not yet included in FC7 so far as I can tell (the VM image I downloaded was test1, but not much progress seems to have been made on that front since). I'll download test3 and see if I can file some bugs on it. Dotan Cohen http://technology-sleuth.com/long_answer/what_is_a_firewall.html http://what-is-what.com/what_is/copyleft.html From dotancohen at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 06:03:53 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:03:53 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <16de708d0704181318s251018cxe8648f23798f28eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <880dece00704180225h1d3e7454r62917a3cb023dba4@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704180231u10a43a05mdef2b3447b28febf@mail.gmail.com> <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704180902h351a132yba7478511696edb5@mail.gmail.com> <46264A8D.2080200@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181033x166a75dat35592ee5a717d732@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0704181318s251018cxe8648f23798f28eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <880dece00704182303v43e3f0dcj85000f1ff4858aa2@mail.gmail.com> On 18/04/07, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen wrote: > > Rahul, I have no problem with doing something because one can. Man > > walked on the moon because 'he could', and in the process technology > > had been advanced in ways that profit every walk of life. I have > > repeatedly expressed the need for a one (or at least not _five_) disk > > install. However, I don't think that Fedora should be used to > > introduce people to Linux (reasons given in previous email), and > > that's a very likely scenario for a LiveCD. That is a situation that > > must be considered. > > > > Dotan Cohen > > Dotan, > > I think I share your opinions on the LiveCD. Especially after going > through issues with the last two people I recommended Fedora to, I > fear I may have turned them off linux for awhile. Nevertheless, might > I suggest a wait-and-see approach to further discussion against the > LiveCD - hopefully the Fedora project will collect some statistics as > to how successfully it is. Personally, I think Fedora could better > benifit from pioneering ease and versatility of installation, since no > other OS seems to have anything that great in terms of installation > yet, but that' my $0.02 which doesn't even have time to implement said > idea. I hope to see it soon and help file bugs. Statistics seeing how popular it is would be nice (difficult of course to gather), but statistics as to how it's used would be no less important in my opinion. Dotan Cohen http://technology-sleuth.com/question/why_are_internet_greeting_cards_dangerous.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/lyrics/135/457/spears_britney/oops_i_did_it_again.html From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 19 13:56:56 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:26:56 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <200704180700.12913.jkeating@redhat.com> <880dece00704180550x62dc7325y72e4df154060f162@mail.gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> Dotan Cohen wrote: > On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > [K]ubuntu had always had the goal of being simple for new users, a > goal that I understand is not on Fedora's priority agenda. Your understanding is wrong. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives and http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Usability. >> Sure it is for many people. Just visit some popular Linux related >> websites and read the news or comments. > > Doesn't seem so, but games certainly do. Then you are having tunnel vision. At any rate if you don't have anything to contribute towards desktop development this is the wrong forum for expressing your opinions. Rahul From dotancohen at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 16:29:25 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:29:25 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > [K]ubuntu had always had the goal of being simple for new users, a > > goal that I understand is not on Fedora's priority agenda. > > Your understanding is wrong. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives Nowhere in that document is it even implied that Fedora should be simple for new users. The closest that I found was this: "To emphasize usability and a "just works" philosophy in default configurations and feature designs." CodecBuddy will help in that respect. > and http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Usability. Nor here. The closest was this text at the top: "The Fedora Usability SIG (Special Interest Group) aims to provide coherence, accessibility and intuitivity for all people using Fedora and its associated resources. Fedora should provide a simple and coherent interface. Improving Fedora end-users experience is our job." However, again no specific mention of new users. > >> Sure it is for many people. Just visit some popular Linux related > >> websites and read the news or comments. > > > > Doesn't seem so, but games certainly do. > > Then you are having tunnel vision. At any rate if you don't have > anything to contribute towards desktop development this is the wrong > forum for expressing your opinions. I'm certain that you are more up to speed in what users want than I am: that's not my profession. But of all the arguments I've heard from users who want to try something other than Windows, I've never (never!) been told that they are looking for more eye candy or that they are unsatisfied with the look of Windows XP (or 98 in two cases). I again state that I am not expressing my own opinions. My opinions do not matter: I know to configure KDE exactly how I want it, and I know how to install the programs and libraries that I need. Partly in thanks to you, Rahul, and to the rest of the Fedora community. However, I am constantly discussing what people like and dislike about their computers (I don't say 'operating system': many users don't know the difference). I talk to my mother in law, the librarians, people on the bus, friends, family, other students, children that I tutor in math, my professors, the university and faculty staff, even the armed security guards. I'm rather interested in the subject and I dare say that I know what I'm talking about. I ask questions, I don't say words such as "Linux", "Windows", "operating system", "Internet Explorer", "Firefox", and the like. I know why most people would use Firefox instead of IE, and why those same people would use Windows over Fedora, without ever mentioning the products names. When I insist on something on the subject, it's not because I want to see my favorite configuration become the default one. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com/what_is/internet.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/416/queen.html From walters at redhat.com Thu Apr 19 16:36:21 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:36:21 -0400 Subject: Installing the Big Board part of online desktop Message-ID: <46279A85.4080101@redhat.com> Hi, One thing we've been working on lately here on the Mugshot team is prototyping part of what an "online desktop" would be. For more information about the ideas behind the project, see Havoc's blog entry: http://log.ometer.com/2007-04.html#3 If you'd like to try out the Big Board mentioned in that entry, see this wiki page: http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/Big_Board There are Fedora Core 6 RPMs available, with instructions on the page. You can also compile/install from source of course. I'm presently working on submitting some of the prerequisite RPMs to Fedora (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=235741), if someone out there is an RPM expert and could take a look at the pacakges that would rock. Let us know what you think! One important known bug worth mentioning here is currently it doesn't work correctly with Compiz: http://bugzilla.mugshot.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1201 From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 19 16:36:56 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 22:06:56 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46261A13.10202@nicubunu.ro> <880dece00704180700j7845e57k4fbf4f48ac768627@mail.gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> Dotan Cohen wrote: > On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Dotan Cohen wrote: >> > On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >> > [K]ubuntu had always had the goal of being simple for new users, a >> > goal that I understand is not on Fedora's priority agenda. >> >> Your understanding is wrong. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives > > Nowhere in that document is it even implied that Fedora should be > simple for new users. The closest that I found was this: > "To emphasize usability and a "just works" philosophy in default > configurations and feature designs." ... which automatically makes it simple for *everyone* including new users. It would be nice if you could drop having a argument just for the sake of it. You expressed a opinion that we need to drop creating live images which we are not going to do for reasons explained earlier. You also feel that new users might get scared because people might come across a Fedora live image and try it out. I am not sure we can or need to avoid that. Anything else? Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 19 16:54:53 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 22:24:53 +0530 Subject: Installing the Big Board part of online desktop In-Reply-To: <46279A85.4080101@redhat.com> References: <46279A85.4080101@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46279EDD.9000507@fedoraproject.org> Colin Walters wrote: > Hi, > > One thing we've been working on lately here on the Mugshot team is > prototyping part of what an "online desktop" would be. > For more information about the ideas behind the project, see Havoc's > blog entry: > > http://log.ometer.com/2007-04.html#3 > > If you'd like to try out the Big Board mentioned in that entry, see this > wiki page: > > http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/Big_Board > > There are Fedora Core 6 RPMs available, with instructions on the page. > You can also compile/install from source > of course. I'm presently working on submitting some of the prerequisite > RPMs to Fedora > (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=235741), if > someone out there is an RPM expert and could > take a look at the pacakges that would rock. > > Let us know what you think! Installed bigboard from the repo file on Fedora Core 6. The side bar on the left says "sign in to Mugshot" on three places (On top, below applications, below photos) even though I am already signed in and running. Clicking on it doesn't work. Here is the command line output. If you need more info let me know. #bigboard Data Dir: /usr/share/deskbar-applet Handlers Dir: ['/home/sundaram/.gnome2/deskbar-applet/handlers', '/usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers'] Binding Global shortcut F3 to focus the deskbar Set entry width: 20 Layout changed to 1 Changing UI to: Entriac Introspect error: The name org.mugshot.Mugshot was not provided by any .service files Introspect error: The name org.mugshot.Mugshot was not provided by any .service files Loading module 'del.icio.us Bookmarks' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/desklicious.py. Loading module 'Beagle' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/beagle-static.py. *** *** The file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/galeon.py (GaleonBookmarksHandler) decided to not load itself: Galeon is not your preferred browser, not using it. *** Loading module 'Mail (Address Book)' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/evolution.py. *** *** The file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/galago.py (GalagoHandler) decided to not load itself: Waiting for python bindings of galago. Should allow to send IM by typing name. *** Loading module 'Recent Documents' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/recent.py. Loading module 'History' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/history.py. Loading module 'Fedora Bugzilla Entries' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/fedorabz.py. Loading module 'Web' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/web_address.py. Error loading the file: /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/gdmactions.py. Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/deskbar/ModuleLoader.py", line 91, in import_module mod = pydoc.importfile (filename) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/pydoc.py", line 237, in importfile raise ErrorDuringImport(path, sys.exc_info()) ErrorDuringImport: problem in /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/gdmactions.py - ImportError: No module named gdmclient Loading module 'Web Searches' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/mozilla.py. Loading module 'Web History' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/mozilla.py. Loading module 'Web Bookmarks' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/mozilla.py. Loading module 'Files and Folders Search' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/programs.py. Loading module 'Dictionary' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/programs.py. Loading module 'Developer Documentation' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/programs.py. Error:load_icon:Icon Load Error:Icon 'devhelp' not present in theme (or Icon 'devhelp' not present in theme) Loading module 'Programs' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/programs.py. *** *** The file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/epiphany.py (EpiphanyBookmarksHandler) decided to not load itself: Epiphany is not your preferred browser, not using it. *** *** *** The file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/google-live.py (GoogleLiveHandler) decided to not load itself: You need to install the SOAPpy python module. *** *** *** The file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/beagle-live.py (BeagleLiveHandler) decided to not load itself: Could not load beagle, libbeagle has been compiled without python bindings:No module named beagle *** Loading module 'Window Switcher' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/iswitch-window.py. Error:load_icon:Icon Load Error:Icon 'panel-window-menu' not present in theme (or Icon 'panel-window-menu.png' not present in theme) Loading module 'Yahoo! Search' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/yahoo.py. Loading module 'Files, Folders and Places' from file /usr/lib/deskbar-applet/handlers/files.py. Initializing History Initializing Programs Initializing Mail (Address Book) Error while initializing Mail (Address Book). Requirements not met. You need to enable autocomplete in your mail preferences Initializing Web Initializing Files, Folders and Places Initializing Web Bookmarks Initializing Web Searches Stopping History Stopping Web Stopping Files, Folders and Places Stopping Web Searches Initializing Yahoo! Search Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/bigboard/stock.py", line 101, in self.__signin.connect("button-press-event", lambda signin, event: self.__on_signin_press()) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/bigboard/stock.py", line 154, in __on_signin_press baseurl = self._mugshot.get_baseurl() File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/bigboard/mugshot.py", line 229, in get_baseurl return self.__get_baseprop('baseurl') File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/bigboard/mugshot.py", line 226, in __get_baseprop return self.__baseprops[name] TypeError: unsubscriptable object Rahul From dotancohen at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 17:02:47 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:02:47 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Dotan Cohen wrote: > >> > On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> > >> > [K]ubuntu had always had the goal of being simple for new users, a > >> > goal that I understand is not on Fedora's priority agenda. > >> > >> Your understanding is wrong. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives > > > > Nowhere in that document is it even implied that Fedora should be > > simple for new users. The closest that I found was this: > > "To emphasize usability and a "just works" philosophy in default > > configurations and feature designs." > > ... which automatically makes it simple for *everyone* including new > users. It would be nice if you could drop having a argument just for the > sake of it. Until end users can click on an mp3 file, and keep clicking dialogs until it plays (with no googling/searching/reading and no prior knowledge) then Fedora will not be simple for new users. Additionally, I didn't think that Fedora wanted to get to that point until I saw CodecBuddy. Rahul, please stop thinking that I am arguing for the sake of it. I am pointing out weaknesses and other traits in my favorite Linux distro and I have been not once used argumentive terms, agression, nor insulting remarks. I am not arguing, rather, I am presenting a case. > You expressed a opinion that we need to drop creating live > images which we are not going to do for reasons explained earlier. Obviously I don't want the LiveCD project to be dropped. But I emphasize the need to consider it's impact. When a general turns down a plan for arresting a terrorist, do I think that he does not want the terrorist arrested? Obviously not. But he has concerns regarding the planned execution of the mission and stresses the importance of certain aspects. It's not personal, and it's certainly not an argument. > You > also feel that new users might get scared because people might come > across a Fedora live image and try it out. I am not sure we can or need > to avoid that. Anything else? We cannot avoid that, therefore we must ensure that the LiveCD does not deter them. Do you disagree with that? If so (and you have every right to disagree) then please tell me how it would benefit Fedora if new users try the LiveCD, find it impossible to do what they need, and write off Linux (not just Fedora) as impossible to use. That is not a one-in-a-million hypothetical situation. I would imagine (this is not based upon research) that a large (over 10 or even 20 percent) of downloads would be for this purpose. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com/what_is/3g.html http://dotancohen.com/eng/online_casino_gambling.php From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 19 17:26:48 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 22:56:48 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> Dotan Cohen wrote: > Until end users can click on an mp3 file, and keep clicking dialogs > until it plays (with no googling/searching/reading and no prior > knowledge) then Fedora will not be simple for new users. Additionally, > I didn't think that Fedora wanted to get to that point until I saw > CodecBuddy. Clicking on mp3 files is just one activity. User friendless is not measured by just this one factor. We have already explained in detail why we don't intend to support it by default on this at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ. It serves no purpose repeating this information again. So let's not have the same discussion on mp3 codecs for the umpteenth time. > Obviously I don't want the LiveCD project to be dropped. But I > emphasize the need to consider it's impact. You certainly questioned the need for a live cd before. We have already considered it in detail and decided to do it before we started investing resources on doing it. > We cannot avoid that, therefore we must ensure that the LiveCD does > not deter them. Do you disagree with that? How exactly do you ensure that? That is the information that I have been asking for. Rahul From walters at redhat.com Thu Apr 19 17:51:05 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:51:05 -0400 Subject: Installing the Big Board part of online desktop In-Reply-To: <46279EDD.9000507@fedoraproject.org> References: <46279A85.4080101@redhat.com> <46279EDD.9000507@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4627AC09.5080206@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Installed bigboard from the repo file on Fedora Core 6. The side bar > on the left says "sign in to Mugshot" on three places (On top, below > applications, below photos) even though I am already signed in and > running. Are you running the Mugshot client, in addition to being signed into the web site? > Introspect error: The name org.mugshot.Mugshot was not provided by any > .service files > Introspect error: The name org.mugshot.Mugshot was not provided by any > .service files This error seems to suggest it is not running. Try executing 'mugshot' from a command launcher. Or perhaps you are using a very old version? > > File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/bigboard/mugshot.py", line > 226, in __get_baseprop > return self.__baseprops[name] > TypeError: unsubscriptable object Yeah, I see now how this bug would occur if the client was not running. We should handle this better in the near future; Havoc is doing some work to ensure that Big Board can talk to the Mugshot server without requiring the Mugshot client UI (with the notifications). From davidz at redhat.com Thu Apr 19 18:02:55 2007 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:02:55 -0400 Subject: offtopic again again (Was Re: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why.) In-Reply-To: <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46265E8E.7040701@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181136l410e0429sdca703109847dae1@mail.gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1177005775.2779.0.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Hi again, Please stop feeding the trolls. Thanks. David From dotancohen at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 18:21:12 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:21:12 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <880dece00704191121r423fb9e0k8b13827cdcf464a8@mail.gmail.com> On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > > Until end users can click on an mp3 file, and keep clicking dialogs > > until it plays (with no googling/searching/reading and no prior > > knowledge) then Fedora will not be simple for new users. Additionally, > > I didn't think that Fedora wanted to get to that point until I saw > > CodecBuddy. > > Clicking on mp3 files is just one activity. User friendless is not > measured by just this one factor. Excuse my English, but how do you refer to the chemical that runs out first in a chemical reaction, thereby limiting the amount of product produced? Would it be "limiting agent"? (that's an exact translation from Hebrew) User friendliness is the least friendly of several measurements. As Fedora now stands, the limiting agent in Fedora user friendliness is the (lack of) multimedia support. It's not a coincidence that that is the title of this thread. > We have already explained in detail > why we don't intend to support it by default on this at > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ. It serves no purpose repeating this > information again. And I agree with every word of it. That was never under dispute. It's the implementation that I disagree with, not the policy. > So let's not have the same discussion on mp3 codecs > for the umpteenth time. We're not. We are discussing the implementation. > > Obviously I don't want the LiveCD project to be dropped. But I > > emphasize the need to consider it's impact. > > You certainly questioned the need for a live cd before. We have already > considered it in detail and decided to do it before we started investing > resources on doing it. Not the need, but the purpose and implementation. If it's implemented as FC7 test1 (the latest I have been priveleged to play with, please excuse me if the point is not valid for test3) then it is a bad implementation and should be addressed. It's more critical in a LiveCD than the install distro as the LiveCD is more accessible to (potential) new users. > > We cannot avoid that, therefore we must ensure that the LiveCD does > > not deter them. Do you disagree with that? > > How exactly do you ensure that? That is the information that I have been > asking for. Ah, we are making progress. This is where I wanted to get to with you. We can not deter them by identifying the most popular usage [work|play]-flows and making them possible with no googling/asking/prior knowledge/searching. Only click-click-click. It's possible, as [k]Ubuntu has proven. It's even possible given the legal requirements imposed on Redhat. It just needs to be done. The Fedora LiveCD likely will be, like the Ubuntu LiveCD, the decision maker for many people whether or not to use Linux. It boils down to this: Can I do X1, X2, ... , Xn with this thing? If all the answers are yes, then Linux (Fedora, Ubuntu, or whatever distro) gets installed. If not, then Linux does not get installed and the user proclaims to all his friends that he tried Linux and Linux is difficult/for geeks/not ready/impossible. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/ http://what-is-what.com/ From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 19 18:36:05 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 00:06:05 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <880dece00704191121r423fb9e0k8b13827cdcf464a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46266782.8050202@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704181203y41bf78bcnfc6b1e39401de50e@mail.gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191121r423fb9e0k8b13827cdcf464a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4627B695.70401@fedoraproject.org> Dotan Cohen wrote: > User friendliness is the least friendly of several measurements. As > Fedora now stands, the limiting agent in Fedora user friendliness is > the (lack of) multimedia support. It's not a coincidence that that is > the title of this thread. The original subject was not about proprietary codecs at all. It's > the implementation that I disagree with, not the policy. Policy determines implementation. We won't include proprietary software and if that affects usability we can't solve the problem in all instances. This is the constraint that we work with and we have made it very explicit. > Not the need, but the purpose and implementation. If it's implemented > as FC7 test1 (the latest I have been priveleged to play with, please > excuse me if the point is not valid for test3) then it is a bad > implementation and should be addressed. It's more critical in a LiveCD > than the install distro as the LiveCD is more accessible to > (potential) new users. Test 1 is very much outdated and you should know better than using it as a starting point of discussion. Hopefully you have filed bugs for whatever problems you came across rather than just calling it bad. Use a more recent revisions and if you want to discuss problems with it sign up in fedora-test list and continue there. This is the wrong forum for that. > We can not deter them by identifying the most popular usage > [work|play]-flows and making them possible with no > googling/asking/prior knowledge/searching. Only click-click-click. > It's possible, as [k]Ubuntu has proven. It's even possible given the > legal requirements imposed on Redhat. It just needs to be done It's not always possible. Ubuntu is already include proprietary kernel drivers by default and plans to do more in future versions. This is not something we are ever going to do in Fedora. If that leaves usability gaps end users will have to live with that in some instances. This discussion has turned no useful points at all and I am stopping at this stage. If you have anything useful to say further please contact me offlist and don't reply here. Thanks. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 19 18:36:32 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 00:06:32 +0530 Subject: Installing the Big Board part of online desktop In-Reply-To: <4627AC09.5080206@redhat.com> References: <46279A85.4080101@redhat.com> <46279EDD.9000507@fedoraproject.org> <4627AC09.5080206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4627B6B0.60305@fedoraproject.org> Colin Walters wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Installed bigboard from the repo file on Fedora Core 6. The side bar >> on the left says "sign in to Mugshot" on three places (On top, below >> applications, below photos) even though I am already signed in and >> running. > Are you running the Mugshot client, in addition to being signed into the > web site? Yes. Is there a way to automatically sign in on the website when running the mugshot client? >> Introspect error: The name org.mugshot.Mugshot was not provided by any >> .service files >> Introspect error: The name org.mugshot.Mugshot was not provided by any >> .service files > This error seems to suggest it is not running. Try executing 'mugshot' > from a command launcher. > Or perhaps you are using a very old version? mugshot-1.1.33-1.fc6. Mugshot frontpage or my profile pages don't show any prominent links to download the new client. The client download page linked from the developer wiki page has outdated packages at http://download.mugshot.org/client/fedora-core-6/. Automatic prompt at http://mugshot.org/upgrade?platform=linux does point to the latest version though. There is no quit option in the client either. Killed the older version and I am running 1.1.40-1 now. It works. I will play it with some more and provide feedback. As I said in FUDCon Boston binary patches like Firefox (without root password) would be nice but I am probably dreaming. Having it the repo is a workaround. Rahul From pemboa at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 22:45:24 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:45:24 -0500 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <4627B695.70401@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191121r423fb9e0k8b13827cdcf464a8@mail.gmail.com> <4627B695.70401@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <16de708d0704191545uda18b6flb4cf4779f79dff87@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > User friendliness is the least friendly of several measurements. As > > Fedora now stands, the limiting agent in Fedora user friendliness is > > the (lack of) multimedia support. It's not a coincidence that that is > > the title of this thread. > > The original subject was not about proprietary codecs at all. > > It's > > the implementation that I disagree with, not the policy. > > Policy determines implementation. We won't include proprietary software > and if that affects usability we can't solve the problem in all > instances. This is the constraint that we work with and we have made it > very explicit. Rahul, I think the point Donton is trying to make is that distributed LiveCDs may actually deal a blow to Fedora's image, as LiveCDs are often used to show of to people unwilling to understand Fedora's policy choices. > > Not the need, but the purpose and implementation. If it's implemented > > as FC7 test1 (the latest I have been priveleged to play with, please > > excuse me if the point is not valid for test3) then it is a bad > > implementation and should be addressed. It's more critical in a LiveCD > > than the install distro as the LiveCD is more accessible to > > (potential) new users. > > Test 1 is very much outdated and you should know better than using it as > a starting point of discussion. Hopefully you have filed bugs for > whatever problems you came across rather than just calling it bad. Use > a more recent revisions and if you want to discuss problems with it sign > up in fedora-test list and continue there. This is the wrong forum for > that. > > > We can not deter them by identifying the most popular usage > > [work|play]-flows and making them possible with no > > googling/asking/prior knowledge/searching. Only click-click-click. > > It's possible, as [k]Ubuntu has proven. It's even possible given the > > legal requirements imposed on Redhat. It just needs to be done > > It's not always possible. Ubuntu is already include proprietary kernel > drivers by default and plans to do more in future versions. This is not > something we are ever going to do in Fedora. If that leaves usability > gaps end users will have to live with that in some instances. > > This discussion has turned no useful points at all and I am stopping at > this stage. If you have anything useful to say further please contact me > offlist and don't reply here. Thanks. > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 19 22:47:07 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:17:07 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <16de708d0704191545uda18b6flb4cf4779f79dff87@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191121r423fb9e0k8b13827cdcf464a8@mail.gmail.com> <4627B695.70401@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0704191545uda18b6flb4cf4779f79dff87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4627F16B.3090905@fedoraproject.org> Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > Rahul, I think the point Donton is trying to make is that distributed > LiveCDs may actually deal a blow to Fedora's image, as LiveCDs are > often used to show of to people unwilling to understand Fedora's > policy choices. That point is well understood. Unless you have a good idea to solve that I don't think there is any necessity to worry about it. We have done what we can to educate users on our objectives. Rahul From pemboa at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 22:52:48 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:52:48 -0500 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <4627F16B.3090905@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191121r423fb9e0k8b13827cdcf464a8@mail.gmail.com> <4627B695.70401@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0704191545uda18b6flb4cf4779f79dff87@mail.gmail.com> <4627F16B.3090905@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <16de708d0704191552re2f553epd56f85ffe3412865@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > > > > Rahul, I think the point Donton is trying to make is that distributed > > LiveCDs may actually deal a blow to Fedora's image, as LiveCDs are > > often used to show of to people unwilling to understand Fedora's > > policy choices. > > That point is well understood. Unless you have a good idea to solve that > I don't think there is any necessity to worry about it. We have done > what we can to educate users on our objectives. No I don't. However, I have to say even I was dismayed a bit when I couldn't get OO.org Impress to embed a OGM file. But I've emailed the maintainer, who says that I should be better in F7. (long story short, I had to do a Impress presentation about Fedora on WinXP) The only real suggestion, if it even is a suggestion, is that Fedora needs a secondary, complementary goal, besides being a solid base of free and open software. > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From walters at redhat.com Thu Apr 19 22:55:55 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:55:55 -0400 Subject: Installing the Big Board part of online desktop In-Reply-To: <4627B6B0.60305@fedoraproject.org> References: <46279A85.4080101@redhat.com> <46279EDD.9000507@fedoraproject.org> <4627AC09.5080206@redhat.com> <4627B6B0.60305@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4627F37B.7020108@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Yes. Is there a way to automatically sign in on the website when > running the mugshot client? Basically the client picks up cookies from firefox; if you're signed in on the website you should be on the client. The only caveat is signing out on the web site right now does not sign you out on the client. > mugshot-1.1.33-1.fc6. Mugshot frontpage or my profile pages don't show > any prominent links to download the new client. The client download > page linked from the developer wiki page has outdated packages at > http://download.mugshot.org/client/fedora-core-6/. Automatic prompt at > http://mugshot.org/upgrade?platform=linux does point to the latest > version though. Ah ok, so this was the real problem. > There is no quit option in the client either. There should be in the latest version on right click, though there might not have been in the earlier version. > Killed the older version and I am running 1.1.40-1 now. It works. I > will play it with some more and provide feedback. Cool! > As I said in FUDCon Boston binary patches like Firefox (without root > password) would be nice but I am probably dreaming. Having it the repo > is a workaround. Just talked with Owen and I think we're going to ensure compatibility and turn on the bits that get it pushed into the main Fedora repository, so the upgrade issue should mostly go away. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 19 23:07:49 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:37:49 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <16de708d0704191552re2f553epd56f85ffe3412865@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191121r423fb9e0k8b13827cdcf464a8@mail.gmail.com> <4627B695.70401@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0704191545uda18b6flb4cf4779f79dff87@mail.gmail.com> <4627F16B.3090905@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0704191552re2f553epd56f85ffe3412865@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4627F645.3050508@fedoraproject.org> Arthur Pemberton wrote: > The only real suggestion, if it even is a suggestion, is that Fedora > needs a secondary, complementary goal, besides being a solid base of > free and open software. What would that be? Please be specific. Rahul From pemboa at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 23:18:33 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:18:33 -0500 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <4627F645.3050508@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191121r423fb9e0k8b13827cdcf464a8@mail.gmail.com> <4627B695.70401@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0704191545uda18b6flb4cf4779f79dff87@mail.gmail.com> <4627F16B.3090905@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0704191552re2f553epd56f85ffe3412865@mail.gmail.com> <4627F645.3050508@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <16de708d0704191618h35d253c6x69ce6143f285e751@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > The only real suggestion, if it even is a suggestion, is that Fedora > > needs a secondary, complementary goal, besides being a solid base of > > free and open software. > > What would that be? Please be specific. > > Rahul > It would be nice if Fedora could pioneer migration and installation software. Anaconda is nice, best operating system installer I have used, but I believe there is room for much improvement, and no one else seems to be actively pursuing said goal. -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 19 23:25:25 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:55:25 +0530 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <16de708d0704191618h35d253c6x69ce6143f285e751@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191121r423fb9e0k8b13827cdcf464a8@mail.gmail.com> <4627B695.70401@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0704191545uda18b6flb4cf4779f79dff87@mail.gmail.com> <4627F16B.3090905@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0704191552re2f553epd56f85ffe3412865@mail.gmail.com> <4627F645.3050508@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0704191618h35d253c6x69ce6143f285e751@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4627FA65.6000508@fedoraproject.org> Arthur Pemberton wrote: > It would be nice if Fedora could pioneer migration and installation > software. Anaconda is nice, best operating system installer I have > used, but I believe there is room for much improvement, and no one > else seems to be actively pursuing said goal. Being a solid base of Free and open source software is a long term goal. Migration software is a feature. Don't confuse between them. Write it, find folks willing to do it or wait till we get around to doing it if ever. We will happily use it when it's available. It is of high value. Rahul From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Fri Apr 20 04:36:50 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:36:50 -0500 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46284362.9000108@prodigy.net.mx> I just thought of a means to help improve overall media capabilities perceptions of Fedora in the live media (CD/DVDs), and who knows? could even benefit the installed version as well. It occurred to me right after having to boot a system with a Knoppix LiveDVD disk to perform a rescue (I did not have my handy Fedora RescueCD handy, but I had my Knoppix LiveDVD disk available). Long story made short: I helped a friend with his computer with Windows XP which happened to be trashed, and he wanted to rescue all his data, but the problem was he was being unable to boot Windows to perform said backup, so I offered to help him. Booted the LiveDVD into the desktop (I've many ideas for improvement of the Live media based on this last experience, which I may end up sending to the LiveCD mailing list) and started backing his stuff up. While the network transfer was running, he started roaming in the distro and found out the example "media" file OpenSource.ogg (Open Source song) and it struck me like lightning... But before I lay out my idea, my friend really liked the fact of "sample media", so I thought: * What if to improve this "media perception" Fedora was to include some sample material in ogg/theora format in the Live media? A tour video, and some sample music would be terrific. The tunes are not THAT hard to get, especially when we have at our disposal great sources like the Linux Audio Users mailing list and website [1][2]. There are some great tunes that are free to use shared through the list by the authors themselves, a little note and an e-mail to the authors asking their permission to include their material with the Live media/distribution benefits us all (they get more exposure, we showcase free formats), and the same goes for video files... These are a bit trickier to get right, but there could even be a music sample package available links and notes in the wiki, etc... I think this is a more proactive approach than a reactive one. * Another thing I thought would also be beneficial is to include some sort of "manifesto" right into the home directory as a sample document in various formats: .abw, .txt, .ps, .pdf, HTML, etc. which contained a "summarized" version of the release notes in a more "user friendly" language (i.e less technical, more colloquial wording, not as thorough) and explaining there (again being extra careful with wording to avoid misunderstandings and not being legally pedantic) why closed formats aren't being used in the distribution, and even give some pointers to CodecBuddy, or how to get legitimate means to play these formats, but which fall beyond the support of the distro as such because that's not Free and Open Source software (concrete example: Real Player), by indicating that it is possible, and stating the reasons why such support is not included, I don't think we're going against any policies or principles. We wouldn't just be saying what can't be done (which for all intents and purposes *is* a brick wall), but also offering a possible solution. Solution which is not part of the distribution, as there's a conflict of interests, philosophies, objectives and goals; but being the user a prime concern, there's both education and pointers toward possible means in the same document. No need for google/ask-in-forums/trash Linux in general and Fedora in particular. The same goes for proprietary drivers and such. The fact that Fedora can't carry them, doesn't mean we have to remain silent as to point the users to potentially solve a problem. That I believe is what really makes a distribution "user friendly". The fact that Fedora doesn't ship with proprietary software (driver or application programs), doesn't mean necessarily that we have to shut off users who might need to find the means to perform a certain task, instead showing them where they can look for means to solve their problems should be more helpful. For instance, instead of directly linking to the download page of either Real, nVidia or AMD (ATi), point towards wiki posts, forums, documentation where the users can examine and finally decide whether they want/need such solutions or not. This is relevant for the Desktop users as well, as I believe the same could be done for the installed version. [1] http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user [2]http://lau.linuxaudio.org/ From dotancohen at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 05:13:07 2007 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:13:07 +0300 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <4627B695.70401@fedoraproject.org> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46266E8D.5000300@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704182251p210ab486p9a36fbf2aecf55d2@mail.gmail.com> <46277528.3060702@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704190929h6d63865ep318f52b304650d6d@mail.gmail.com> <46279AA8.6030705@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191002g587174c0v966a3b5b53a723a4@mail.gmail.com> <4627A658.1060101@fedoraproject.org> <880dece00704191121r423fb9e0k8b13827cdcf464a8@mail.gmail.com> <4627B695.70401@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <880dece00704192213m7f25362fjfdb3676faefb403f@mail.gmail.com> On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > User friendliness is the least friendly of several measurements. As > > Fedora now stands, the limiting agent in Fedora user friendliness is > > the (lack of) multimedia support. It's not a coincidence that that is > > the title of this thread. > > The original subject was not about proprietary codecs at all. > > It's > > the implementation that I disagree with, not the policy. > > Policy determines implementation. We won't include proprietary software > and if that affects usability we can't solve the problem in all > instances. This is the constraint that we work with and we have made it > very explicit. > > > Not the need, but the purpose and implementation. If it's implemented > > as FC7 test1 (the latest I have been priveleged to play with, please > > excuse me if the point is not valid for test3) then it is a bad > > implementation and should be addressed. It's more critical in a LiveCD > > than the install distro as the LiveCD is more accessible to > > (potential) new users. > > Test 1 is very much outdated and you should know better than using it as > a starting point of discussion. Hopefully you have filed bugs for > whatever problems you came across rather than just calling it bad. Use > a more recent revisions and if you want to discuss problems with it sign > up in fedora-test list and continue there. This is the wrong forum for > that. > > > We can not deter them by identifying the most popular usage > > [work|play]-flows and making them possible with no > > googling/asking/prior knowledge/searching. Only click-click-click. > > It's possible, as [k]Ubuntu has proven. It's even possible given the > > legal requirements imposed on Redhat. It just needs to be done > > It's not always possible. Ubuntu is already include proprietary kernel > drivers by default and plans to do more in future versions. This is not > something we are ever going to do in Fedora. If that leaves usability > gaps end users will have to live with that in some instances. > > This discussion has turned no useful points at all and I am stopping at > this stage. If you have anything useful to say further please contact me > offlist and don't reply here. Thanks. > > Rahul > As per Rahul's request, the conversation is being continued in private. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Apr 20 06:42:16 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:42:16 +0300 Subject: Installing the Big Board part of online desktop In-Reply-To: <46279A85.4080101@redhat.com> References: <46279A85.4080101@redhat.com> Message-ID: <462860C8.1010403@nicubunu.ro> Colin Walters wrote: > > If you'd like to try out the Big Board mentioned in that entry, see this > wiki page: > > http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/Big_Board > > Let us know what you think! It have a few annoying things (which I believe you are aware already): - on the wiki you recommend starting it by typing "bigboard" at a command prompt, unfortunaely, bigboard will not launch in the background (not even using "bigboard &") and if you close the terminal, also the application is closed. A better way is to press Alt+F2 to gett the Gnome "run" dialog and type "bigboard" there, but this leave you without a way to close the application. - if I talked about application close, is there a way to close the app without killing it? I didn't saw a "close" button. - another annoying thing is the window placement: bigboard is not the single most important item on the desktop to have it in the top-left corner of the screen, so it would be useful if it allowed me to drag the panel to the right border of the screen. With those said, I noticed a minor problem (which again, I think you are already aware): having bigboard open, I went to my mugshot profile, noticed the addition to picassaweb to account settings and configured it. Bigboard noticed this addition to my profile only after a restart. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 20 07:36:17 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:06:17 +0530 Subject: Live cd solutions In-Reply-To: <46284362.9000108@prodigy.net.mx> References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> <46284362.9000108@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <46286D71.2050804@fedoraproject.org> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > * What if to improve this "media perception" Fedora was to include some > sample material in ogg/theora format in the Live media? A tour video, > and some sample music would be terrific. The tunes are not THAT hard to > get, especially when we have at our disposal great sources like the > Linux Audio Users mailing list and website [1][2]. There are some great > tunes that are free to use shared through the list by the authors > themselves, a little note and an e-mail to the authors asking their > permission to include their material with the Live media/distribution > benefits us all (they get more exposure, we showcase free formats), and > the same goes for video files... These are a bit trickier to get right, > but there could even be a music sample package available links and notes > in the wiki, etc... I think this is a more proactive approach than a > reactive one. This is already being pursued. See fedora-music list archives. Fedora 7 Bookmarks will have links to Free content and we are looking at highlighting similar content in other places too. Fedora 7 based live images or USB disks planned to be distributed in Red Hat summit will feature free multimedia content. One of the reasons we don't do it in the default Live CD is because of lack of space. > * Another thing I thought would also be beneficial is to include some > sort of "manifesto" right into the home directory as a sample document > in various formats: .abw, .txt, .ps, .pdf, HTML, etc. which contained a > "summarized" version of the release notes in a more "user friendly" > language (i.e less technical, more colloquial wording, not as thorough) > and explaining there (again being extra careful with wording to avoid > misunderstandings and not being legally pedantic) why closed formats > aren't being used in the distribution, and even give some pointers to > CodecBuddy, or how to get legitimate means to play these formats I am already writing some content that would serve this purpose If you want to help please contribute. > That I believe is what really makes a distribution "user friendly". The > fact that Fedora doesn't ship with proprietary software (driver or > application programs), We won't point to proprietary drivers. General user level applications are different from kernel drivers because of potential legal issues, debugging problems they induce etc. Rahul From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Apr 20 16:02:36 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:02:36 -0400 Subject: Why is Fedora a multimedia disaster? - Here is why. In-Reply-To: <16de708d0704180920o1e9d7270s645e2a56460b262d@mail.gmail.com> References: <46255011.3070501@gmail.com> <46263EE8.6040804@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0704180920o1e9d7270s645e2a56460b262d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704201202.36553.jkeating@redhat.com> On Wednesday 18 April 2007 12:20:55 Arthur Pemberton wrote: > Well that is only really half a reason, since ?a live cd will likely > only have one DE. But one cd intalltion is the only real benefit i can > think of so far. I use the LiveImage on my USB Key to run Linux anywhere. Next development cycle where we really try to nail down persistence and encryption I could potentially have a well working Live image with my home directory and all my applications set up on my USB key, negating the need to travel with a clunky laptop. To walk into a room of doubters, borrow one of their windows laptops/workstations/whatever, boot from my USB and have my working Fedora desktop right there is a pretty compelling sight, especially if I can add packages, update, show that things like suspend/resume work on their hardware, etc... -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Fri Apr 20 17:58:55 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:58:55 -0500 Subject: Live cd solutions In-Reply-To: <46286D71.2050804@fedoraproject.org> References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> <"4 6 284362.9000108"@prodigy.net.mx> <46286D71.2050804@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4628FF5F.1000009@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram escribi?: >> That I believe is what really makes a distribution "user friendly". >> The fact that Fedora doesn't ship with proprietary software (driver >> or application programs), > > We won't point to proprietary drivers. General user level applications > are different from kernel drivers because of potential legal issues, > debugging problems they induce etc. > > Rahul > I am very aware of that situation, however, just having an attitude of "no can't do, and sorry can't help you with that" is not very helpful either. I know about the politics and the reasons behind such policies, however leaving the users in the blank isn't (IMO) the best course of action. I know there's lots and lots of documentation, but to new users (and I here speak out of experience with more than a couple new users) the available information is not all that clear (mainly due to technicalities and jargon used) and is not really helpful as it doesn't state what can they actually do to (for instance) use their hardware, even if that means going "unsupported" (which Fedora already is, given its nature, only in such situation the users are going astray from the stable pool of code, which means if they get a kernel oops or panic, they're on their own). Bottom line is that even with all the information available, they're still (kind of) left in the dark. I know there's a thin line between mentioning something and actually endorsing it, like in this case, the use of proprietary drivers or application programs, but it is kind of absurd we can't reach a point where we could help users without actually endorsing using such solutions (which seems to me to be the core of the problem and dilemma here) From walters at redhat.com Fri Apr 20 18:49:34 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:49:34 -0400 Subject: Installing the Big Board part of online desktop In-Reply-To: <462860C8.1010403@nicubunu.ro> References: <46279A85.4080101@redhat.com> <462860C8.1010403@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <46290B3E.5000904@redhat.com> Nicu Buculei wrote: > Colin Walters wrote: >> >> If you'd like to try out the Big Board mentioned in that entry, see >> this wiki page: >> >> http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/Big_Board >> >> Let us know what you think! > > It have a few annoying things (which I believe you are aware already): > - on the wiki you recommend starting it by typing "bigboard" at a > command prompt, unfortunaely, bigboard will not launch in the > background (not even using "bigboard &") and if you close the > terminal, also the application is closed. A better way is to press > Alt+F2 to gett the Gnome "run" dialog and type "bigboard" there, Excellent suggestion, I'd honestly forgotten about Alt-F2. I updated the wiki. > but this leave you without a way to close the application. > - if I talked about application close, is there a way to close the app > without killing it? I didn't saw a "close" button. Well I can see two kinds of "close": - "I want all my screen space, but I like using bigboard." For this case ideally the "small mode" is good enough, but we might also have an option to minimize to a tray icon? - "This app sucks, never show me again". At this experimental stage, I think the recommendation will just be Alt-F2 then "xkill", click on bigboard. Longer term where the big board is only part of all the changes to "online desktop mode", I think we'll have a global control somewhere. > - another annoying thing is the window placement: bigboard is not the > single most important item on the desktop to have it in the top-left > corner of the screen, so it would be useful if it allowed me to drag > the panel to the right border of the screen. Added this to the to-do on the wiki. > With those said, I noticed a minor problem (which again, I think you > are already aware): having bigboard open, I went to my mugshot > profile, noticed the addition to picassaweb to account settings and > configured it. Bigboard noticed this addition to my profile only after > a restart. > This used to work but was kind of hackish; it no longer does. Definitely an important bug to fix because it basically affects everything. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 21:16:37 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:16:37 +0200 Subject: CodecBuddy - how to help? Message-ID: <64b14b300704201416q43f259f5t666b57707265420@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I tried contacting CodecBuddy develoopers but with no luck. I wan't to help with testing it and bug hunting but need some pointers how. Can anybody tell me how I can get in and help out? Thank you in advance. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From bnocera at redhat.com Fri Apr 20 22:58:55 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:58:55 +0100 Subject: CodecBuddy - how to help? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300704201416q43f259f5t666b57707265420@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704201416q43f259f5t666b57707265420@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1177109935.32379.111.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Fri, 2007-04-20 at 23:16 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, > I tried contacting CodecBuddy develoopers but with no luck. I wan't to > help with testing it and bug hunting but need some pointers how. Can > anybody tell me how I can get in and help out? Who did you contact? How did you want to help? From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 23 01:27:26 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 06:57:26 +0530 Subject: Live cd solutions In-Reply-To: <4628FF5F.1000009@prodigy.net.mx> References: <64b14b300704170714l22d28c25i47ac1ae14960d058@mail.gmail.com> <"4 6 284362.9000108"@prodigy.net.mx> <46286D71.2050804@fedoraproject.org> <4628FF5F.1000009@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <462C0B7E.5080006@fedoraproject.org> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > I am very aware of that situation, however, just having an attitude of > "no can't do, and sorry can't help you with that" is not very helpful > either. Pointing users to solutions we can't support and that will cause us problems legally as well as in development resources is not very helpful either. Remember that being a base of proprietary solutions is a explicit non-objective of Fedora. Rahul