From abo at kth.se Sat Sep 1 07:33:17 2007 From: abo at kth.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 09:33:17 +0200 Subject: PackageKit Misconceptions In-Reply-To: <604aa7910708221413n26413c8dx8f78fcd33fd4d770@mail.gmail.com> References: <15e53e180708220946g546e1154re7bcf5e770334ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20070822133100.5f2daedb@mentok.boston.redhat.com> <46CC75FF.7070502@redhat.com> <20070822135330.1395dc00@mentok.boston.redhat.com> <1187805220.2903.66.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910708221413n26413c8dx8f78fcd33fd4d770@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1188631997.16306.78.camel@home.alexander.bostrom.net> On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 13:13 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/22/07, David Zeuthen wrote: > > Assume that Alice gets Fedora from Mallory's mirror. What prevents > > Mallory from patching the rpm and yum programs that end up on Alice's > > system to avoid honoring the keys that we, painfully, make her import? > > would signing our mirror metadata help? Hmm... Lets say someone is doing a MITM attack on your yum mirrors (probably by replacing the mirrorlist with a list of their servers, or using DNS tricks to point everything to them). What can they do? They can certainly hide updates, giving you an outdated view of the repo so you don't get any security updates. Anything else? Anyway, I think every file on the mirrors should be signed somehow, and everything downloaded by yum, Anaconda or the bootstrap code on boot.iso and all the other ISOs should be checked against against a public key included on the boot media. So basically, if you have a trusted CD containing boot.iso, your install would potentially be totally secure. Btw, RHEL should do this too, because both with RHEL and Fedora, if you do an FTP install, there's no verification of the packages, AFAICT. With RHEL, you might have an internal FTP server with the extracted OS distribution, but you're still assuming that your network is secure, which is something you should always avoid doing. > would importing the provided keys at install time help? > (We have to assume the install media is trusted) I think the installer should be free to rpm --import anything it puts in /etc/pki, but it probably does not make sense to import rawhide keys etc. /abo From abo at kth.se Sat Sep 1 08:05:21 2007 From: abo at kth.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:05:21 +0200 Subject: PackageKit Misconceptions In-Reply-To: References: <15e53e180708220946g546e1154re7bcf5e770334ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20070822133100.5f2daedb@mentok.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1188633921.16306.95.camel@home.alexander.bostrom.net> On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 13:55 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > > The obvious default policy to me is: > > * Fedora trusts the GPG keys it ships > * All other keys are denied I'd say: * PackageKit trusts the GPG keys that are in /etc/pki. * All other keys are denied. Yum, on the other hand, does ask and show a fingerprint, but it also shows the path to the key (IIRC), so the smart user can see if it's a trusted key from /etc/pki or if it's an unknown key that she needs to check. > The scenario where this does break down is installing software from > other sites like livna. If we have some sort of hoop there in the > process that's probably fine. Maybe you have to "sudo rpm -ivh > http://livna.org/gpg.asc", or click some dialog. Firefox makes users > installing extensions wait 3 seconds. Yup. Which is basically what we have today. You do rpm -ivh http://www.3dparty.org/3rdpart-release.rpm That puts the key in /etc/pki, which means you've agreed to trust it. As long as 3dparty.org is a good repo and you're net being MITM:d, it's fine. And it's a manual step that requires doing stuff in a root shell or responing with the root password when you click on the rpm link in the browser. There's room for improvement here though, perhaps if some legally and technically sane way of helping the use figure out who to trust can be found. /abo From hughsient at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 09:56:15 2007 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:56:15 +0100 Subject: PackageKit Misconceptions In-Reply-To: <1188633921.16306.95.camel@home.alexander.bostrom.net> References: <15e53e180708220946g546e1154re7bcf5e770334ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20070822133100.5f2daedb@mentok.boston.redhat.com> <1188633921.16306.95.camel@home.alexander.bostrom.net> Message-ID: <1188640575.3627.5.camel@hughsie-laptop> On Sat, 2007-09-01 at 10:05 +0200, Alexander Bostr?m wrote: > * PackageKit trusts the GPG keys that are in /etc/pki. > * All other keys are denied. Guys, if people want to talk about implementation, could you please join the mailing list, and we can talk there with the other devs. The mailing list is http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/packagekit Thanks. Richard. From drago01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 14:33:35 2007 From: drago01 at gmail.com (dragoran) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:33:35 +0200 Subject: no epiphany.i386 package for Fedora x86_64 ? In-Reply-To: References: <46C9BFB2.2040706@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46DC1B3F.10506@gmail.com> Anuj Verma (Kevin) wrote: > On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:22:10 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: > > >> Fedora doesn't have a 32 bit package for compatibility; it's only there >> because of the way multilib works. If so many apps didn't rely on it to >> build against, there would be only a 64 bit version. >> > > but there is a firefox.i386 > > yes because packages needs it to build against it. (every package that has a -devel package has a i386 and a x86_64 version) >> Now that nspluginwrapper is in rawhide though, it should be working no? >> File a bug if not. >> > > yes i noticed that "nspluginwrapper" is there but it is not working right > for sure. I hope to bug report it soon. > > works fine here also we have a 64bit java plugin in rawhide (I am using blackdown java on my x86_64 f7 box) From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 02:38:39 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:38:39 -0400 Subject: Reminder: Desktop SIG meeting tomorrow Message-ID: <1188959919.4638.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> After last weeks break, we'll meet again tomorrow at 2pm EST (19:00 UTC) in #fedora-meeting on freenode. From kevinverma at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 09:36:37 2007 From: kevinverma at gmail.com (Kevin Verma) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:06:37 +0530 Subject: no epiphany.i386 package for Fedora x86_64 ? In-Reply-To: <46DC1B3F.10506@gmail.com> References: <46C9BFB2.2040706@redhat.com> <46DC1B3F.10506@gmail.com> Message-ID: dragoran wrote: > Anuj Verma (Kevin) wrote: >> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:22:10 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: >> >> >>> Fedora doesn't have a 32 bit package for compatibility; it's only there >>> because of the way multilib works. If so many apps didn't rely on it to >>> build against, there would be only a 64 bit version. >>> >> >> but there is a firefox.i386 >> > yes because packages needs it to build against it. (every package that > has a -devel package has a i386 and a x86_64 version) >>> Now that nspluginwrapper is in rawhide though, it should be working no? >>> File a bug if not. >>> >> >> yes i noticed that "nspluginwrapper" is there but it is not working >> right for sure. I hope to bug report it soon. >> > works fine here also we have a 64bit java plugin in rawhide (I am using > blackdown java on my x86_64 f7 box) > I tried both IcedTea and Black down 64bit plugin those work, but the flash-plugin is not working at all under nspluginwrapper From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 14:39:11 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:39:11 -0400 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today Message-ID: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> I just realized that I will not be able to attend the meeting today (for some reason I thought it was at 1, not at 2). Here are the notes that I had for things that could be discussed today. I hope someone else can do the cheering/dancing/leading. Chris are you going to be there ? Matthias Anyway, here are my notes: test2 status ? what desktop features are in and testable ? ? animated backgrounds ? bluetooth printing, browsing, smsing ? pulseaudio ? codecbuddy ? policykit - not much there yet, need to check with david, intlclock, gnome-device-manager still missing ? lots of quirks for suspend/resume and keyboard handling ? new theme (partially) ? bigboard ? which desktop features are not yet in ? ? new NM ? xulrunner desktop spin status (from booting a spin built with yesterdays rawhide) ? udev slow ? tries to set up lvm - why ? ? rpcbind/statd/idmapd - should be turned off ? autofs too ? do we want rhgb on the livecd ? ? starting avahi fails - needs to be after NM ? ? dhcdbd should go out with the new NM ? avoid getty on vt1 ? volunteers needed ? test2 feature testing and bug hunt ? side-by-side comparison to ubuntu, opensuse, etc wiki ? SIGs/Desktop vs Desktop is confusing to me, can we have just one ? From mzerqung at 0pointer.de Wed Sep 5 15:01:12 2007 From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:01:12 +0200 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20070905150112.GA7837@tango.0pointer.de> On Wed, 05.09.07 10:39, Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) wrote: > ??? pulseaudio Uh oh. The meetings are usually pretty late here in Germany. Today it's too late for me to attend. Sorry, Lennart -- Lennart Poettering Red Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 15:28:08 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:28:08 -0400 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <20070905150112.GA7837@tango.0pointer.de> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070905150112.GA7837@tango.0pointer.de> Message-ID: <1189006088.4219.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 17:01 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: > On Wed, 05.09.07 10:39, Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) wrote: > > > ??? pulseaudio > > Uh oh. The meetings are usually pretty late here in Germany. Today > it's too late for me to attend. > Thats fine. I didn't really want to talk much about PA, just pointed it out as one of the new, testable features in test2. But the general problem of "meeting too late for Europe" should maybe be discussed. Maybe we can come up with an alternative time, or alternate between early/late or somesuch. Matej complained as well... Matthias From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 15:31:17 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:31:17 -0400 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1189006277.4219.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > ? what desktop features are in and testable ? > Some more new, testworthy things that have come up after I sent out this mail: - the vinaigre vnc client - new compiz and -fusion (I think Kristian may send out a more detailed mail about how the packaging looks now, and what needs to be installed to get the most bling for the buck) - new appearance capplet From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 15:43:58 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:43:58 +0100 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189006277.4219.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189006277.4219.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1189007038.26050.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 11:31 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > > > ? what desktop features are in and testable ? > > > > Some more new, testworthy things that have come up after I sent out this > mail: > > - the vinaigre vnc client vinagre. Same liquid, but the Spanish version of it :) From katzj at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 15:55:22 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:55:22 -0400 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189007038.26050.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189006277.4219.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189007038.26050.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1189007722.5653.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 16:43 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 11:31 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > > > > > > ? what desktop features are in and testable ? > > > > > > > Some more new, testworthy things that have come up after I sent out this > > mail: > > > > - the vinaigre vnc client > > vinagre. Same liquid, but the Spanish version of it :) Note that it might make sense to actually have it listed in comps if we want people to use it and know about it (hint, hint ;-) Jeremy From mzerqung at 0pointer.de Wed Sep 5 16:00:15 2007 From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:00:15 +0200 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189007038.26050.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189006277.4219.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189007038.26050.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <20070905160014.GA9305@tango.0pointer.de> On Wed, 05.09.07 16:43, Bastien Nocera (bnocera at redhat.com) wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 11:31 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > > > > > > ??? what desktop features are in and testable ? > > > > > > > Some more new, testworthy things that have come up after I sent out this > > mail: > > > > - the vinaigre vnc client > > vinagre. Same liquid, but the Spanish version of it :) I am quite sure that it is actually the Portuguese version, given that Jonh Wendell is Brazilian. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering Red Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 16:12:57 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:12:57 -0400 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189007722.5653.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189006277.4219.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189007038.26050.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1189007722.5653.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1189008777.4219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 11:55 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 16:43 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 11:31 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ? what desktop features are in and testable ? > > > > > > > > > > Some more new, testworthy things that have come up after I sent out this > > > mail: > > > > > > - the vinaigre vnc client > > > > vinagre. Same liquid, but the Spanish version of it :) > > Note that it might make sense to actually have it listed in comps if we > want people to use it and know about it (hint, hint ;-) This is not quite clear to me. What is the current policy wrt to comps ? List everything ? Or only selected stuff ? From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Sep 5 16:17:32 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:47:32 +0530 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189008777.4219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189006277.4219.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189007038.26050.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1189007722.5653.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189008777.4219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46DED69C.1000907@fedoraproject.org> Matthias Clasen wrote: > > This is not quite clear to me. What is the current policy wrt to comps ? > List everything ? Or only selected stuff ? Selected stuff. Rahul From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Wed Sep 5 16:26:34 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:26:34 +0200 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <46DED69C.1000907@fedoraproject.org> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189006277.4219.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189007038.26050.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1189007722.5653.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189008777.4219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46DED69C.1000907@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1189009594.32292.1.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mercredi 05 septembre 2007 ? 21:47 +0530, Rahul Sundaram a ?crit : > Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > > > This is not quite clear to me. What is the current policy wrt to comps ? > > List everything ? Or only selected stuff ? > > Selected stuff. I'd say everything that can be used directly by humans. You don't have to make your entry mandatory or default-on -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 17:08:32 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 13:08:32 -0400 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189009594.32292.1.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189006277.4219.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189007038.26050.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1189007722.5653.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189008777.4219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46DED69C.1000907@fedoraproject.org> <1189009594.32292.1.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1189012112.4219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> Ok, I've added vinagre to comps. From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 17:10:52 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:10:52 +0100 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1189012252.26050.78.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > I just realized that I will not be able to attend the meeting today (for > some reason I thought it was at 1, not at 2). Here are the notes that I > had for things that could be discussed today. I hope someone else can do > the cheering/dancing/leading. Chris are you going to be there ? > > Matthias > > > Anyway, here are my notes: > > test2 status > > ? what desktop features are in and testable ? > ? bluetooth printing, browsing, smsing I've added docs on how it works, and how to test the new Bluetooth features: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBluetooth#head-5f18054be16b8498dd45b2361830046fdd9e6220 I've not added the audio docs yet, as this is still in flux, and I need to see how it's going to integrate with Pulse, if at all. Cheers PS: Great UTF-8-ness btw :) From drago01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 17:14:08 2007 From: drago01 at gmail.com (dragoran) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:14:08 +0200 Subject: no epiphany.i386 package for Fedora x86_64 ? In-Reply-To: References: <46C9BFB2.2040706@redhat.com> <46DC1B3F.10506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DEE3E0.7090704@gmail.com> Kevin Verma wrote: > dragoran wrote: >> Anuj Verma (Kevin) wrote: >>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:22:10 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Fedora doesn't have a 32 bit package for compatibility; it's only >>>> there >>>> because of the way multilib works. If so many apps didn't rely on >>>> it to >>>> build against, there would be only a 64 bit version. >>>> >>> >>> but there is a firefox.i386 >>> >> yes because packages needs it to build against it. (every package >> that has a -devel package has a i386 and a x86_64 version) >>>> Now that nspluginwrapper is in rawhide though, it should be working >>>> no? >>>> File a bug if not. >>>> >>> >>> yes i noticed that "nspluginwrapper" is there but it is not working >>> right for sure. I hope to bug report it soon. >>> >> works fine here also we have a 64bit java plugin in rawhide (I am >> using blackdown java on my x86_64 f7 box) >> > I tried both IcedTea and Black down 64bit plugin those work, but the > flash-plugin is not working at all under nspluginwrapper > working fine here... no crashes or anything does not notice anything different then without nspluginwrapper... is it listed under about:plugins ? From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 18:11:59 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:11:59 +0100 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189012112.4219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189006277.4219.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189007038.26050.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1189007722.5653.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189008777.4219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46DED69C.1000907@fedoraproject.org> <1189009594.32292.1.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1189012112.4219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1189015919.26050.80.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 13:08 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Ok, I've added vinagre to comps. It wasn't clear to me either. As we didn't ship tsclient as a default (it didn't appear anywhere in comps), I thought I shouldn't add vinagre there. Thanks for doing that Matthias From rstrode at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 19:00:32 2007 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:00:32 -0400 Subject: meeting time Message-ID: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> What time should we have the desktop SIG meetings? We currently do 2-3 on Wednesday. --Ray From rstrode at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 19:04:00 2007 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:04:00 -0400 Subject: meeting time In-Reply-To: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46DEFDA0.1000709@redhat.com> Hi, > > We currently do 2-3 on Wednesday. > 2-3 US east coast time, if that's not clear. As in the meeting just ended. --Ray From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 19:31:54 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:31:54 +0100 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189012252.26050.78.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189012252.26050.78.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1189020714.26050.82.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 18:10 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > I just realized that I will not be able to attend the meeting today (for > > some reason I thought it was at 1, not at 2). Here are the notes that I > > had for things that could be discussed today. I hope someone else can do > > the cheering/dancing/leading. Chris are you going to be there ? > > > > Matthias > > > > > > Anyway, here are my notes: > > > > test2 status > > > > ? what desktop features are in and testable ? > > ? bluetooth printing, browsing, smsing > > I've added docs on how it works, and how to test the new Bluetooth > features: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBluetooth#head-5f18054be16b8498dd45b2361830046fdd9e6220 I've added most of the Bluetooth stuff to the default comps for F8 as well. Thanks Jeremy for mentioning it. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Sep 5 19:29:48 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:59:48 +0530 Subject: meeting time In-Reply-To: <46DEFDA0.1000709@redhat.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> <46DEFDA0.1000709@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46DF03AC.1000709@fedoraproject.org> Ray Strode wrote: > Hi, >> >> We currently do 2-3 on Wednesday. >> > 2-3 US east coast time, if that's not clear. As in the meeting just ended. 10 AM in US east cost might be better for those in IST. Can someone kindly start posting the irc logs for the meetings too? Rahul (Hoping third time is lucky) From caillon at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 19:34:23 2007 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:34:23 -0400 Subject: meeting time In-Reply-To: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> Ray Strode wrote: > What time should we have the desktop SIG meetings? An important consideration is the official meeting channel schedule[1]. If we want to continue to have the meetings in #fedora-meeting, we should be mindful of this. Else, we could pick any time and have the meetings on a different channel. Preferably GimpNet, since it seems most of the desktop hackers are on #fedora-desktop there and forget to join #fedora-meeting for this meeting. [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel From rstrode at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 19:42:32 2007 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:42:32 -0400 Subject: meeting channel (was Re: meeting time) In-Reply-To: <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46DF06A8.7060700@redhat.com> Christopher Aillon wrote: > Ray Strode wrote: >> What time should we have the desktop SIG meetings? > > An important consideration is the official meeting channel > schedule[1]. If we want to continue to have the meetings in > #fedora-meeting, we should be mindful of this. > > Else, we could pick any time and have the meetings on a different > channel. Preferably GimpNet, since it seems most of the desktop > hackers are on #fedora-desktop there and forget to join > #fedora-meeting for this meeting. > > [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel > I would be up for using a different channel just because it would be easier to post irc logs. right now, getting the logs means sifting through all the other meetings so I never volunteer when mether asks for them. --Ray From a.badger at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 20:05:14 2007 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 13:05:14 -0700 Subject: meeting channel (was Re: meeting time) In-Reply-To: <46DF06A8.7060700@redhat.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> <46DF06A8.7060700@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ray Strode wrote: > I would be up for using a different channel just because it would be > easier to post irc logs. right now, getting the logs means sifting > through all the other meetings so I never volunteer when mether asks for > them. > Having all the meetings in one channel was done so people who wanted to stay informed of multiple parts of fedora could log one channel to see what was going on. This helps to spread your message outside of your particular group to the larger community. - -Toshio -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG3wv5X6yAic2E7kgRAod/AKCvCJBveB92Xqbwj/keohSpWG0LgQCgjopi XZmlMJWwd4Pp0yn80OMRX+w= =0Vbv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From katzj at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 20:14:38 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:14:38 -0400 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > desktop spin status (from booting a spin built with yesterdays rawhide) > ? udev slow I've noticed this too, but haven't gotten around to investigating what in our rules is slow. > ? tries to set up lvm - why ? rc.sysinit always tries to enable any LVM that's present. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we can do a check with blkid for devices which are PVs and only do it if there are PVs present. We're going to want this more-so in the future because we're going to be enabling available swaps[1] unless explicitly requested otherwise. This will help a lot of users who's hardware is a little less good to actually run the live image and not die a slow death of no memory being available > ? rpcbind/statd/idmapd - should be turned off > ? autofs too Should they just be off booting from the live image or after the install as well? Although rpcbind might be worth leaving around -- eventually, it'd be nice if the other rpc-based services could auto-start as needed. Then we could just start rpcbind and if you do an nfs mount and need locking, lockd would start. And so on. So activation for old crummy services. The other approach would be to set up rpcbind to run from xinetd and run xinetd by default :) > ? do we want rhgb on the livecd ? There were a surprising number of requests for it. > ? starting avahi fails - needs to be after NM ? Yeah, not sure what's up with this... > ? dhcdbd should go out with the new NM *nod* > ? avoid getty on vt1 ? If this is wanted, someone should throw together the little bit of scripting needed to modify the inittab from the live initscript. Even just get me the bit of shell and I can put it in the initscript. There was another small tweak that we were going to do in the initscript to one of the defaults and now I've forgotten what it was. Anyone else remember? Jeremy [1] Thought I had committed and pushed this last week, but apparently I forgot to push it, so it's not in yesterday's builds. From notting at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 20:18:25 2007 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:18:25 -0400 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20070905201825.GA29272@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) said: > desktop spin status (from booting a spin built with yesterdays rawhide) > ? udev slow Any tracing? It shouldn't be that much slower on live than normal; iirc, it's ~5 seconds (which is slow, but not AARGH slow.) > ? tries to set up lvm - why ? Jeremy answered this one. > ? rpcbind/statd/idmapd - should be turned off rpcbind you probably want (or, to have it started automatically if needed.) > ? autofs too Just nuke the package. Bill From notting at redhat.com Wed Sep 5 20:19:52 2007 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:19:52 -0400 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20070905201952.GB29272@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: > > ? avoid getty on vt1 ? > > If this is wanted, someone should throw together the little bit of > scripting needed to modify the inittab from the live initscript. Even > just get me the bit of shell and I can put it in the initscript. vt1, or vt1-6? Don't forget you'll need to signal init if you do this. Bill From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Sep 5 20:21:52 2007 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:21:52 -0400 Subject: meeting channel (was Re: meeting time) In-Reply-To: <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> <46DF06A8.7060700@redhat.com> <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1189023712.16157.3.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 13:05 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Ray Strode wrote: > > I would be up for using a different channel just because it would be > > easier to post irc logs. right now, getting the logs means sifting > > through all the other meetings so I never volunteer when mether asks for > > them. > > > Having all the meetings in one channel was done so people who wanted to > stay informed of multiple parts of fedora could log one channel to see > what was going on. This helps to spread your message outside of your > particular group to the larger community. > +1 I sit in #fedora-meeting to monitor for certain keywords on purpose. -sv From caillon at redhat.com Thu Sep 6 00:03:08 2007 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:03:08 -0400 Subject: meeting channel (was Re: meeting time) In-Reply-To: <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> <46DF06A8.7060700@redhat.com> <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DF43BC.10605@redhat.com> Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > Having all the meetings in one channel was done so people who wanted to > stay informed of multiple parts of fedora could log one channel to see > what was going on. This helps to spread your message outside of your > particular group to the larger community. If we're in the position where we need to make a call between letting more people participate vs. letting more people lurk, I'm going to vote to move our meetings to a different channel. The prime #fedora-meeting spots have been largely taken, which makes it harder to work around schedules. From a.badger at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 00:24:00 2007 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:24:00 -0700 Subject: meeting channel (was Re: meeting time) In-Reply-To: <46DF43BC.10605@redhat.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> <46DF06A8.7060700@redhat.com> <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> <46DF43BC.10605@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46DF48A0.1010800@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Christopher Aillon wrote: > Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> Having all the meetings in one channel was done so people who wanted to >> stay informed of multiple parts of fedora could log one channel to see >> what was going on. This helps to spread your message outside of your >> particular group to the larger community. > > If we're in the position where we need to make a call between letting > more people participate vs. letting more people lurk, I'm going to vote > to move our meetings to a different channel. > That's definitely one valid point. A counter is that people who are working together will find ways of communicating with each other outside of meetings whereas people who are more peripheral to the decision making need the focus of a meeting to be able to know where to go to see what's being discussed by whom. > The prime #fedora-meeting spots have been largely taken, which makes it > harder to work around schedules. > You need to be careful of that, though. It also means that people who may have wanted to participate are unable to because they're already in another meeting. That said, maybe it is time to have a #fedora-meeting2. - -Toshio -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG30igX6yAic2E7kgRAkGlAKCkVDCZ8VQajWorwSijIMv4j35puACfTYaB BN4jS3zsxpjX73EJhoSJpK4= =JGAk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 6 02:52:57 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:22:57 +0530 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46DF6B89.1030003@fedoraproject.org> Matthias Clasen wrote: > ? side-by-side comparison to ubuntu, opensuse, etc Depending on how streamlined you want the installation to be, here is something to consider http://en.revilinux.org/2007/09/ark-linux-h2o-20071.html Single click installation. A single screen asks for language, keyboard and timezone settings and off you go. Two users created by default (root and normal) and both with passwords disabled and autologin is enabled by default for the normal user. You can set passwords post installation if necessary. They use a module that allows you to run administration tools without the root password. This seems like Policy Kit with permissive settings. A potential enhancement would be to preselect a timezone and keyboard settings based on geoip but still allow the user to customize it if necessary. Rahul From walters at redhat.com Thu Sep 6 03:09:48 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:09:48 -0400 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <46DF6B89.1030003@fedoraproject.org> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46DF6B89.1030003@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > ? side-by-side comparison to ubuntu, opensuse, etc > > Depending on how streamlined you want the installation to be, here is > something to consider > > http://en.revilinux.org/2007/09/ark-linux-h2o-20071.html Yeah, that's pretty close to right. I would allow people to type in their real name and autogenerate a unix username from that (like guest-account[1] does), but if they choose not to just pick some default. [1] https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/guest-account -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 6 03:19:36 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:49:36 +0530 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46DF6B89.1030003@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46DF71C8.70005@fedoraproject.org> Colin Walters wrote: > > Yeah, that's pretty close to right. > > I would allow people to type in their real name and autogenerate a unix > username from that (like guest-account[1] does), but if they choose not > to just pick some default. > > [1] https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/guest-account Is this for Fedora 8? How are you planning on handling passwords? Sudo? Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 6 03:25:30 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:55:30 +0530 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46DF6B89.1030003@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46DF732A.5040407@fedoraproject.org> Colin Walters wrote: > I would allow people to type in their real name and autogenerate a unix > username from that (like guest-account[1] does), but if they choose not > to just pick some default. > > [1] https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/guest-account Guest account and the ideas surrounding letting users take pics of themselves via a cam reminded me of a few things * Cheese - For taking pics of themselves via a cam * Good photo management application - f-spot might be a good choice but pulls in mono * Desktop search - beagle or tracker * Video editing - pick one of http://digital-filmmaking.blogspot.com/2007/08/video-editing-options-for-linux.html * SELinux guest user policy looks very useful if exposed nicely. http://danwalsh.livejournal.com/10461.html. Rahul From caillon at redhat.com Thu Sep 6 05:22:40 2007 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:22:40 -0400 Subject: meeting channel (was Re: meeting time) In-Reply-To: <46DF48A0.1010800@gmail.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> <46DF06A8.7060700@redhat.com> <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> <46DF43BC.10605@redhat.com> <46DF48A0.1010800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DF8EA0.5050509@redhat.com> Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> The prime #fedora-meeting spots have been largely taken, which makes it >> harder to work around schedules. >> > You need to be careful of that, though. It also means that people who > may have wanted to participate are unable to because they're already in > another meeting. It's a problem, but something that we're going to have to face at some point anyway as Fedora grows. I merely brought up the channel thing because the existing time was chosen as it best fit many people's schedules within the constraints. Changing the time might mean changing the constraints and moving to a different channel. From rstrode at redhat.com Thu Sep 6 14:12:19 2007 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:12:19 -0400 Subject: meeting channel (was Re: meeting time) In-Reply-To: <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> <46DF06A8.7060700@redhat.com> <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E00AC3.8000704@redhat.com> Hi, > > I would be up for using a different channel just because it would be > > easier to post irc logs. right now, getting the logs means sifting > > through all the other meetings so I never volunteer when mether asks for > > them. > > > Having all the meetings in one channel was done so people who wanted to > stay informed of multiple parts of fedora could log one channel to see > what was going on. This helps to spread your message outside of your > particular group to the larger community. One thing that might be interesting would be if #fedora-meeting could have a bot that does logging automatically and puts them up somewhere. I've seen irc meetings before where they do things like docbot start meeting docbot stop meeting and it automatically posts logs somewhere. If we had that kind of bot, then everyone who used #fedora-meeting could benefit from it. --Ray From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Sep 6 18:19:46 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:19:46 -0400 Subject: panel launchers Message-ID: <1189102786.23373.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> I have built my preferred-apps-panel-launcher code into rawhide now. Let me know if you see any problems with it. Matthias From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 7 05:44:02 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:14:02 +0530 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <46DF732A.5040407@fedoraproject.org> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46DF6B89.1030003@fedoraproject.org> <46DF732A.5040407@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46E0E522.6010607@fedoraproject.org> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Colin Walters wrote: > >> I would allow people to type in their real name and autogenerate a >> unix username from that (like guest-account[1] does), but if they >> choose not to just pick some default. >> >> [1] https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/guest-account > > Guest account and the ideas surrounding letting users take pics of > themselves via a cam reminded me of a few things > > * Cheese - For taking pics of themselves via a cam I have submitted a package review request at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=281891 Reviews welcome. Rahul From harald at redhat.com Fri Sep 7 05:53:31 2007 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 07:53:31 +0200 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46E0E75B.2040302@redhat.com> Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> desktop spin status (from booting a spin built with yesterdays rawhide) >> ? udev slow > > I've noticed this too, but haven't gotten around to investigating what > in our rules is slow. Hmm, I do not experience that... maybe some rules from another package? From dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org Fri Sep 7 06:59:48 2007 From: dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org (Douglas McClendon) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:59:48 -0500 Subject: automated regression testing, was Re: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <46E0E75B.2040302@redhat.com> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46E0E75B.2040302@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46E0F6E4.2050502@filteredperception.org> Harald Hoyer wrote: > Jeremy Katz wrote: >> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>> desktop spin status (from booting a spin built with yesterdays rawhide) >>> ? udev slow >> >> I've noticed this too, but haven't gotten around to investigating what >> in our rules is slow. > > > Hmm, I do not experience that... maybe some rules from another package? I noticed that F7-livecd took about 3 minutes to fully boot on my system under qemu (with kqemu). And that ubuntu 7.04 took maybe 20 seconds longer than that. But that f8t1 took *15* minutes. Specifically, udev took 20 seconds (reliably +/-3s) on f7-livecd, but f8t1 udev took ~65seconds. I also recall that f8t1 seemed equally bad on native hardware, though I didn't do as detailed a test. This seems like a great time to harp on an idea I've been advocating on fedora-livecd-list for years now- Fully automated regression testing using qemu. Think about it- every night, a rawhide livecd is built. One that has a simple (or complex) automated regression test added to it. I'm thinking a great start would be - gdm-autologin, firefox opening local release notes, and then a shell script which runs vmstat waiting for all io to settle, followed by a screenshot and a shutdown. Basically what you would have would be this headless dedicated regression build server, posting the timing results of the test, and the screenshot every night. Then you could immediately see when something checked into rawhide starts seriously impacting system performance (in a good, or more likely bad way). The ways to add more complexity to the tests, and the automated verification of the tests, are endless and endlessly valuable IMHO. -dmc P.S.- yes, I'll perhaps get around to it eventually, but at this rate with my todo list and other priorities, not for quite some time. From harald at redhat.com Fri Sep 7 09:11:12 2007 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:11:12 +0200 Subject: automated regression testing, was Re: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <46E0F6E4.2050502@filteredperception.org> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46E0E75B.2040302@redhat.com> <46E0F6E4.2050502@filteredperception.org> Message-ID: <46E115B0.5090602@redhat.com> Douglas McClendon schrieb: > Harald Hoyer wrote: >> Jeremy Katz wrote: >>> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>>> desktop spin status (from booting a spin built with yesterdays rawhide) >>>> ? udev slow >>> >>> I've noticed this too, but haven't gotten around to investigating what >>> in our rules is slow. >> >> >> Hmm, I do not experience that... maybe some rules from another package? > > I noticed that F7-livecd took about 3 minutes to fully boot on my system > under qemu (with kqemu). And that ubuntu 7.04 took maybe 20 seconds > longer than that. But that f8t1 took *15* minutes. Specifically, udev > took 20 seconds (reliably +/-3s) on f7-livecd, but f8t1 udev took > ~65seconds. ah... live-cd ... haven't tried that.. will have a look -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3623 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From harald at redhat.com Fri Sep 7 11:47:53 2007 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:47:53 +0200 Subject: automated regression testing, was Re: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <46E115B0.5090602@redhat.com> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46E0E75B.2040302@redhat.com> <46E0F6E4.2050502@filteredperception.org> <46E115B0.5090602@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46E13A69.4050603@redhat.com> Harald Hoyer schrieb: > Douglas McClendon schrieb: >> Harald Hoyer wrote: >>> Jeremy Katz wrote: >>>> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>>>> desktop spin status (from booting a spin built with yesterdays >>>>> rawhide) >>>>> ? udev slow >>>> >>>> I've noticed this too, but haven't gotten around to investigating what >>>> in our rules is slow. >>> >>> >>> Hmm, I do not experience that... maybe some rules from another package? >> >> I noticed that F7-livecd took about 3 minutes to fully boot on my >> system under qemu (with kqemu). And that ubuntu 7.04 took maybe 20 >> seconds longer than that. But that f8t1 took *15* minutes. >> Specifically, udev took 20 seconds (reliably +/-3s) on f7-livecd, but >> f8t1 udev took ~65seconds. > > ah... live-cd ... haven't tried that.. will have a look > No problem here on a real system (not qemu/kqemu) with todays rawhide live cd. So either s.th. got fixed or it is a qemu/kqemu problem. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3623 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From walters at redhat.com Fri Sep 7 12:10:30 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:10:30 -0400 Subject: automated regression testing, was Re: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <46E0F6E4.2050502@filteredperception.org> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46E0E75B.2040302@redhat.com> <46E0F6E4.2050502@filteredperception.org> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Douglas McClendon wrote: > > > Think about it- every night, a rawhide livecd is built. One that has a > simple (or complex) automated regression test added to it. I don't think anyone has looked at boot time regression tests. As for the firefox+screenshot testing - see: http://people.redhat.com/zcerza/dogtail/ But yeah I think everyone would love to see this - right now Fedora's testing is fairly minimal and improving that would greatly benefit the project. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 14:56:04 2007 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 07:56:04 -0700 Subject: meeting channel (was Re: meeting time) In-Reply-To: <46E00AC3.8000704@redhat.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> <46DF06A8.7060700@redhat.com> <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> <46E00AC3.8000704@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46E16684.4090709@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ray Strode wrote: > One thing that might be interesting would be if #fedora-meeting could > have a bot that does logging automatically and puts them up somewhere. > > I've seen irc meetings before where they do things like > > docbot start meeting > docbot stop meeting > > and it automatically posts logs somewhere. If we had that kind of bot, > then everyone who used #fedora-meeting could benefit from it. > Absolutely. People have been mentioning this possibility since the channel was created but so far no one has implemented it. - -Toshio -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG4WaEX6yAic2E7kgRAtS1AJ9a8nKPzHDmxHH1NwajarHzYllOqgCdGzuW D9wY1Eg3zlQvofmauQQalpQ= =iTOt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rstrode at redhat.com Fri Sep 7 15:39:50 2007 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:39:50 -0400 Subject: meeting channel (was Re: meeting time) In-Reply-To: <46E16684.4090709@gmail.com> References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> <46DF06A8.7060700@redhat.com> <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> <46E00AC3.8000704@redhat.com> <46E16684.4090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E170C6.5050808@redhat.com> Hi, > > One thing that might be interesting would be if #fedora-meeting could > > have a bot that does logging automatically and puts them up somewhere. > > > > I've seen irc meetings before where they do things like > > > > docbot start meeting > > docbot stop meeting > > > > and it automatically posts logs somewhere. If we had that kind of bot, > > then everyone who used #fedora-meeting could benefit from it. > > > Absolutely. People have been mentioning this possibility since the > channel was created but so far no one has implemented it. > > Maybe we can just steal i18nbot from #eng-i18n --Ray From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Sep 7 16:12:49 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:12:49 -0400 Subject: wiki pages Message-ID: <1189181569.4300.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> I have tried to make some sense of the split between http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Desktop http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop and added some content. Matthias From davidz at redhat.com Fri Sep 7 18:00:18 2007 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:00:18 +0100 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1189188018.15519.15.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 16:14 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > desktop spin status (from booting a spin built with yesterdays rawhide) > > ? udev slow > > I've noticed this too, but haven't gotten around to investigating what > in our rules is slow. > > > ? tries to set up lvm - why ? > > rc.sysinit always tries to enable any LVM that's present. > Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we can do a check with blkid for > devices which are PVs and only do it if there are PVs present. The right answer here is most likely to move all LVM (and md for that matter too) setup away from /etc/rc.sysinit and into udev rules. I think upstream md already has this (check the udev rules in the upstream tarball) and SUSE got the patch for devicemapper/lvm to do similar. You probably want these fixes too in mainline Fedora I think. Just another piece of the puzzle of moving Fedora into the dynamic event driven world. [1] (This whole thing raises some other interesting questions with one being "do we want RAID auto-assembly?" and I think the answer there for Fedora Desktop is "yes" and maybe perahps "yes, but only for arrays created on this hostname [2]" for mainline Fedora.) [1] : Don't mean to sound harsh but it is really a bug that we do this at init time only; for example it fails with hotplug. I have a nice eSATA enclosure with 5x500GB disks in RAID5 where hotplugging the array works just fine. It should show up on my GNOME desktop if I boot up a live CD on the system to which it is attached. [2] : I think this is the default for mdadm > Should they just be off booting from the live image or after the install > as well? Although rpcbind might be worth leaving around -- eventually, > it'd be nice if the other rpc-based services could auto-start as needed. > Then we could just start rpcbind and if you do an nfs mount and need > locking, lockd would start. And so on. So activation for old crummy > services. > > The other approach would be to set up rpcbind to run from xinetd and run > xinetd by default :) My opinion is that we should just turn it off by default (both in the image and in the resulting install) and maybe also fix the UI tools to check that it's enabled. You may want to keep it on in mainline Fedora. Cheers, David From tjb at unh.edu Fri Sep 7 20:09:39 2007 From: tjb at unh.edu (Thomas J. Baker) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:09:39 -0400 Subject: panel launchers In-Reply-To: <1189102786.23373.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189102786.23373.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1189195779.30276.13.camel@raptor.sr.unh.edu> On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 14:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > I have built my preferred-apps-panel-launcher code into rawhide now. > Let me know if you see any problems with it. > > Matthias > I don't see in under the add applet dialog of an up to date as of 9/7 rawhide. What version of what includes it? Thanks, tjb -- ======================================================================= | Thomas Baker email: tjb at unh.edu | | Systems Programmer | | Research Computing Center voice: (603) 862-4490 | | University of New Hampshire fax: (603) 862-1761 | | 332 Morse Hall | | Durham, NH 03824 USA http://wintermute.sr.unh.edu/~tjb | ======================================================================= From tjb at unh.edu Fri Sep 7 20:18:34 2007 From: tjb at unh.edu (Thomas J. Baker) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:18:34 -0400 Subject: panel launchers In-Reply-To: <1189195779.30276.13.camel@raptor.sr.unh.edu> References: <1189102786.23373.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189195779.30276.13.camel@raptor.sr.unh.edu> Message-ID: <1189196314.30276.16.camel@raptor.sr.unh.edu> On Fri, 2007-09-07 at 16:09 -0400, Thomas J. Baker wrote: > On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 14:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > I have built my preferred-apps-panel-launcher code into rawhide now. > > Let me know if you see any problems with it. > > > > Matthias > > > > I don't see in under the add applet dialog of an up to date as of 9/7 > rawhide. What version of what includes it? > >From the changelog comments it's in gnome-panel 2.19.92. My mirror is just not as up to date as I'd hoped.... Thanks, tjb -- ======================================================================= | Thomas Baker email: tjb at unh.edu | | Systems Programmer | | Research Computing Center voice: (603) 862-4490 | | University of New Hampshire fax: (603) 862-1761 | | 332 Morse Hall | | Durham, NH 03824 USA http://wintermute.sr.unh.edu/~tjb | ======================================================================= From a.badger at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 00:00:14 2007 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:00:14 -0700 Subject: automated regression testing, was Re: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <46E0F6E4.2050502@filteredperception.org> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46E0E75B.2040302@redhat.com> <46E0F6E4.2050502@filteredperception.org> Message-ID: <46E1E60E.6010909@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Douglas McClendon wrote: > > I noticed that F7-livecd took about 3 minutes to fully boot on my system > under qemu (with kqemu). And that ubuntu 7.04 took maybe 20 seconds > longer than that. But that f8t1 took *15* minutes. Specifically, udev > took 20 seconds (reliably +/-3s) on f7-livecd, but f8t1 udev took > ~65seconds. > > I also recall that f8t1 seemed equally bad on native hardware, though I > didn't do as detailed a test. > > This seems like a great time to harp on an idea I've been advocating on > fedora-livecd-list for years now- Fully automated regression testing > using qemu. One thing to remember is that rawhide kernels often have debugging features turned on that can slow things down compared to the release kernels. You'll want to make sure your regression tests take that into account. - -Toshio -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG4eYOX6yAic2E7kgRAjkcAJ46PwfmUwrintGyejDCbf8+WgZIWwCfR5v7 NK1nKuBvkTP6yGa+WL59pPo= =hZkA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org Sun Sep 9 23:43:31 2007 From: dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org (Douglas McClendon) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 18:43:31 -0500 Subject: automated regression testing, was Re: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <46E1E60E.6010909@gmail.com> References: <1189003151.4219.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1189023278.5653.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46E0E75B.2040302@redhat.com> <46E0F6E4.2050502@filteredperception.org> <46E1E60E.6010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E48523.7010105@filteredperception.org> Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Douglas McClendon wrote: >> I noticed that F7-livecd took about 3 minutes to fully boot on my system >> under qemu (with kqemu). And that ubuntu 7.04 took maybe 20 seconds >> longer than that. But that f8t1 took *15* minutes. Specifically, udev >> took 20 seconds (reliably +/-3s) on f7-livecd, but f8t1 udev took >> ~65seconds. >> >> I also recall that f8t1 seemed equally bad on native hardware, though I >> didn't do as detailed a test. >> >> This seems like a great time to harp on an idea I've been advocating on >> fedora-livecd-list for years now- Fully automated regression testing >> using qemu. > > One thing to remember is that rawhide kernels often have debugging > features turned on that can slow things down compared to the release > kernels. You'll want to make sure your regression tests take that into > account. That's OK, as the main thing is the tests would tell you relative boot times. (i.e. today's rawhide is faster/slower than yesterdays). But, to the horrible 15 minute performance I saw with f8t1 under qemu- does that fall into the issue you mentioned? I.e. are those debugging features turned on in f8t1? how about f8t2? What is the quickest way to determine if they are turned on or not? Thanks, -dmc From rnorwood at redhat.com Mon Sep 10 14:57:16 2007 From: rnorwood at redhat.com (Robin Norwood) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:57:16 -0400 Subject: meeting channel In-Reply-To: <46E170C6.5050808@redhat.com> (Ray Strode's message of "Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:39:50 -0400") References: <46DEFCD0.4090106@redhat.com> <46DF04BF.10001@redhat.com> <46DF06A8.7060700@redhat.com> <46DF0BFA.1080600@gmail.com> <46E00AC3.8000704@redhat.com> <46E16684.4090709@gmail.com> <46E170C6.5050808@redhat.com> Message-ID: Ray Strode writes: > Hi, >> > One thing that might be interesting would be if #fedora-meeting could >> > have a bot that does logging automatically and puts them up somewhere. >> > > I've seen irc meetings before where they do things like >> > > docbot start meeting >> > docbot stop meeting >> > > and it automatically posts logs somewhere. If we had that kind >> of bot, >> > then everyone who used #fedora-meeting could benefit from it. >> > Absolutely. People have been mentioning this possibility since >> the >> channel was created but so far no one has implemented it. >> >> > Maybe we can just steal i18nbot from #eng-i18n I hacked on such a bot awhile ago. Let me see if I can revive it and make it useful. -RN -- Robin Norwood Red Hat, Inc. "The Sage does nothing, yet nothing remains undone." -Lao Tzu, Te Tao Ching From kevinverma at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 21:37:49 2007 From: kevinverma at gmail.com (Kevin Verma) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 03:07:49 +0530 Subject: no epiphany.i386 package for Fedora x86_64 ? In-Reply-To: <46DEE3E0.7090704@gmail.com> References: <46C9BFB2.2040706@redhat.com> <46DC1B3F.10506@gmail.com> <46DEE3E0.7090704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E70AAD.4020902@gmail.com> dragoran wrote: > Kevin Verma wrote: >> dragoran wrote: >>> Anuj Verma (Kevin) wrote: >>>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:22:10 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Fedora doesn't have a 32 bit package for compatibility; it's only >>>>> there >>>>> because of the way multilib works. If so many apps didn't rely on >>>>> it to >>>>> build against, there would be only a 64 bit version. >>>>> >>>> >>>> but there is a firefox.i386 >>>> >>> yes because packages needs it to build against it. (every package >>> that has a -devel package has a i386 and a x86_64 version) >>>>> Now that nspluginwrapper is in rawhide though, it should be working >>>>> no? >>>>> File a bug if not. >>>>> >>>> >>>> yes i noticed that "nspluginwrapper" is there but it is not working >>>> right for sure. I hope to bug report it soon. >>>> >>> works fine here also we have a 64bit java plugin in rawhide (I am >>> using blackdown java on my x86_64 f7 box) >>> >> I tried both IcedTea and Black down 64bit plugin those work, but the >> flash-plugin is not working at all under nspluginwrapper >> > working fine here... no crashes or anything does not notice anything > different then without nspluginwrapper... > is it listed under about:plugins ? > Hello, Thanks for offering your help, I was too nick of time to test this issue previously. All the time in about:plugins flash plugin was listed as unknown plugin "do not open" However with today's nspluginwrapper & firefox updates, I looked into this issue further and I found that perhaps an old stale file "npwrapper.libflashplayer.so" was causing the issue, I simply removed the same and re-installed flash-plugin & nspluginwrapper packages with yum. Not really running after major bugs this season, lot too many folks have their eyes on it :-) Cheers, Kevin From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Sep 12 14:14:18 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:14:18 -0400 Subject: Reminder: Desktop SIG meeting today Message-ID: <1189606458.4206.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Meeting will take place at 2pm EST (19:00 UTC) in #fedora-meeting on freenode. I don't have a big agenda prepared; and I assume that we will be somewhat short on people today, with the X team still at XDS and some other people travelling as well. Matthias From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 15:40:22 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:40:22 -0400 Subject: Reminder: Desktop SIG meeting today In-Reply-To: <1189606458.4206.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189606458.4206.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 9/12/07, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Meeting will take place at 2pm EST (19:00 UTC) in #fedora-meeting on > freenode. > > > I don't have a big agenda prepared; and I assume that we will be > somewhat short on people today, with the X team still at XDS and some > other people travelling as well. > Is there a published calendar I can download anywhere? I would love something I could pull into my evolution calendar. Jon From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 00:24:13 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 20:24:13 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) Message-ID: I understand there are a lot of smart people with a lot of great ideas trying to make the boot process faster stronger better. I am sure their stuff will be great when it is done, but for right here and now I think my way is the best out of the box, for a desktop. Then again who really cares how a server boots up, that should happen at most twice a year if the systems administrator is any good. Here is my Fedora 7 clean desktop and what happens. All default things I install and use. I will give some comments. S04dkms_autoinstaller <- already talked about on the dev list. I have the code on my machine that does this when the kernel rpm is installed if a dkms module fails to compile it uses grubby to fail boot to the old kernel ( needs user notification and some way to re-run dkms with updated packages and decide if it should boot the new kernel ) S04readahead_early <- in my new config actually slows down boot. I want to move this code to a really early that runs from rc.sysinit before gdm/rhgb starts S05kudzu <- in my config could theoretically be an X app with a lot better gui S06cpuspeed <- gone. I dumped the cpuspeed daemon and have moved everything to use the in kernel governors and modules. I need a better interface for this but for now I load all the modules in /etc/sysconfig/modules and set ondemand as the default. This configuration allows you to change the governor or statically set the cpu freq through the gnome applet. S07iscsid <- useless without network connectivity moved to a dispatcher.d script S08ip6tables <- can be set here but should also be restarted by dispatcher for future location change switches S10network <- removed for a desktop install. Handled by NetworkManagerDispatcher S11auditd S12restorecond S12syslog S13irqbalance <- not needed yet ( do we really need processes balanced on processors until we are doing anything? ) S13iscsi <- removed for a desktop install. Handled by NetworkManagerDispatcher S13mcstrans S13rpcbind <- removed for a desktop install. Handled by NetworkManagerDispatcher S13setroubleshoot S14nfslock <- removed for a desktop install. Handled by NetworkManagerDispatcher S15mdmonitor <- not needed yet ( This is desktop if we are running a raid can wait until we have a gui to know abou tit ) S18rpcidmapd <- removed for a desktop install. Handled by NetworkManagerDispatcher S19rpcgssd <- removed for a desktop install. Handled by NetworkManagerDispatcher S22messagebus <- I think the system messagebus should be moved to my early-gdm config. start it up way early, everything uses it and it isn't like it should be turned on and off. S25bluetooth <- should be started by udev/hal if appropriate bluetooth devices are detected S25netfs <- removed for a desktop install. Handled by NetworkManagerDispatcher S26hidd <- should be started by udev/hal if appropriate bluetooth devices are detected S28autofs <- should be started by udev/hal if appropriate bluetooth devices are detected S50hplip <- should only be started if cups has a printer setup that uses it. Possibly run by udev/hal. S55cups <- This is a background process for the desktop. Until there is a gui printing is worthless. S55sshd <- removed for a desktop install. Handled by NetworkManagerDispatcher S56xinetd <- removed for a desktop install. Handled by NetworkManagerDispatcher (maybe?) S58ntpd <- removed for a desktop install. Everything handled by NetworkManager S90ConsoleKit S90crond <- dumped I am using fcron S90xfs <- gone S95anacron <- dumped I am using fcron S95atd <- dumped I am using fcron S96readahead_later <- should be run through gdm PreFetchProgram directive for a desktop S97dhcdbd <- gone with NM 7.0 S98avahi-daemon <- removed for a desktop install. Handled by NetworkManagerDispatcher S98haldaemon <- should be way earlier in the boot process for a desktop S99firstboot S99local So what do we get with my setup. GDM is the first thing out of nash that starts. In the Init portion of gdm we start up rhgb and then wait unit it ends to start the greeter. This means we can stop rhgb anytime in the init process and login. I choose to stop it at S50. So I put all my "essential" desktop services pre S50 and all my server/post login services after S50. This gives me. rc.sysinit (I also move the acpi module section to /etc/sysconfig/modules ) /etc/sysconfig/modules/ acpi.modules cpugov.modules kvm.modules udev-stw.modules -> Starts system dbus -> early-gdm -> defers scheduled fsck's to shutdown ( still working on a good gui for this ) S11auditd S12restorecond S12syslog S13mcstrans S13nscd S22messagebus S25bluetooth S30haldaemon S35fcron S40dhcdbd S41NetworkManager S42NetworkManagerDispatcher Here we get the "parallel" boot that everyone talks about. Based on whether the network is up or down we get. S04iscsi S05iscsid S10ntpd S15autofs S16netfs I have both these scripts checking if necessary rpc services are running and starting them if necessary. S15sshd S20avahi-daemon S25avahi-dnsconfd S60iscsi-target S45ConsoleKit S50GDMGreeter ( yeah we can login ) S55cups S60mysqld S61httpd S64lm_sensors .....this list can be any other services that are non-essential to login. S99local There it is short sweet. No fancy magic other than change some text and symlinks. It gives cpugov and speed control in userspace and fixes problems with network services dying when NM changes networks ( Dispatcher restarts things that helps clean up bad states ). Of course the services based on hardware aren't there, however that should easily be added to existing udev rules. On my Athlon 2500+ with a 7200 pata drive 8MB cache I go from power on to signon in 37 seconds, from grub selection I am between 28- 30 seconds to login screen. This method isn't perfect, but it works and takes no extra software. Things can be made better by make rhgb use two way fifo pipes so the entire init process can be redirected to it's vte, and we can export the early-gdm X-server so exitsting text/X processes can use X instead of ncurses. I am just proposing an option to something that doesn't exist yet. Jon From harald at redhat.com Thu Sep 13 06:53:54 2007 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:53:54 +0200 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E8DE82.6020703@redhat.com> Jon Nettleton schrieb: > Of > course the services based on hardware aren't there, however that > should easily be added to existing udev rules. Make that HAL .. not udev. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3623 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 22:07:46 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:07:46 -0800 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> On 9/12/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > S42NetworkManagerDispatcher > Here we get the "parallel" boot that everyone talks about. > Based on whether the network is up or down we get. > S04iscsi > S05iscsid > S10ntpd > S15autofs > S16netfs > I have both these scripts checking if necessary rpc > services are running and Question here from the peanut gallery. Do you still have chkconfig and system-config-services "control" of the services being handled by Dispatcher? -jef From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Sep 13 22:31:25 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:31:25 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1189722685.4468.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2007-09-13 at 14:07 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/12/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > > S42NetworkManagerDispatcher > > Here we get the "parallel" boot that everyone talks about. > > Based on whether the network is up or down we get. > > S04iscsi > > S05iscsid > > S10ntpd > > S15autofs > > S16netfs > > I have both these scripts checking if necessary rpc > > services are running and > > Question here from the peanut gallery. Do you still have chkconfig and > system-config-services "control" of the services being handled by > Dispatcher? That will probably need some work. I think you'd probably want to have a tab for these nm dispatcher services similar to the xined-based services. If you want to go wild, one could also imagine having a list of system bus dbus services there... From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 22:36:31 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:36:31 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/12/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > > S42NetworkManagerDispatcher > > Here we get the "parallel" boot that everyone talks about. > > Based on whether the network is up or down we get. > > S04iscsi > > S05iscsid > > S10ntpd > > S15autofs > > S16netfs > > I have both these scripts checking if necessary rpc > > services are running and > > Question here from the peanut gallery. Do you still have chkconfig and > system-config-services "control" of the services being handled by > Dispatcher? > I tentatively have a working config. I added N as another runlevel that chkconfig can turn on and off. The problem is that the scripts are slightly different for NMDispatcher than standard init. I am starting to lean more towards having another tab in system-config-services that manages them like xinetd. I am open to suggestions though. Jon From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 22:52:28 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:52:28 -0800 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <1189722685.4468.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> <1189722685.4468.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910709131552s566a2276s83f905dec5cfd7eb@mail.gmail.com> On 9/13/07, Matthias Clasen wrote: > That will probably need some work. I think you'd probably want to have a > tab for these nm dispatcher services similar to the xined-based > services. If you want to go wild, one could also imagine having a list > of system bus dbus services there... I think the control issue is probably the only note-worthy regression that I see with this approach. I've no qualms with using Dispatcher for network-related services, with a couple of caveats. 1) basic on/off control ..exactly on par with xinetd based services as you suggest. 2) what to do we do when NM is turned off and the older sysconfig based networking configuration is used. There should be a way to hold the service configs for these network services so they are boot-time operable (if turned on) in situations where NM isn't being run and the legacy sysconfig based networking configs are being used. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 22:59:31 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:59:31 -0800 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910709131559m58afd4a9n9a74214c6a05db64@mail.gmail.com> On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > I tentatively have a working config. I added N as another runlevel > that chkconfig can turn on and off. The problem is that the scripts > are slightly different for NMDispatcher than standard init. I am > starting to lean more towards having another tab in > system-config-services that manages them like xinetd. I am open to > suggestions though. exposing NMDispatcher controlled services like xinetd is handled now is probably fine. Here's the next question. How do you add more services to NMDispatcher's control? From a packager's perspective what do I have to do to ship a package with a network based service script? Am I going to have to ship two different versions of the script? One for the legacy network system and another for the NMDispatcher? -jef From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 23:06:02 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:06:02 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910709131552s566a2276s83f905dec5cfd7eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> <1189722685.4468.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910709131552s566a2276s83f905dec5cfd7eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/13/07, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > That will probably need some work. I think you'd probably want to have a > > tab for these nm dispatcher services similar to the xined-based > > services. If you want to go wild, one could also imagine having a list > > of system bus dbus services there... > > I think the control issue is probably the only note-worthy regression > that I see with this approach. I've no qualms with using Dispatcher > for network-related services, with a couple of caveats. > 1) basic on/off control ..exactly on par with xinetd based services > as you suggest. > > 2) what to do we do when NM is turned off and the older sysconfig > based networking configuration is used. There should be a way to hold > the service configs for these network services so they are boot-time > operable (if turned on) in situations where NM isn't being run and the > legacy sysconfig based networking configs are being used. > I can think of two approaches. a) Do this in system-config-services. Checking NetworkManager and Dispatcher on makes the Network-Services tab active and disables "known services" from the init list and enables them in the Network-Services list. Disabling these does the reverse of course. b) Only have these services in the Network-Services tab or run-level N for chkconfig and extend /etc/init.d/network to run through the /etc/NetworkManager/dispatcher.d/ directory and run the S* services. This message is a little off because it basically puts partial init functionality in the network script. The code should be trivial though. Jon From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 23:19:26 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:19:26 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910709131559m58afd4a9n9a74214c6a05db64@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131559m58afd4a9n9a74214c6a05db64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > > I tentatively have a working config. I added N as another runlevel > > that chkconfig can turn on and off. The problem is that the scripts > > are slightly different for NMDispatcher than standard init. I am > > starting to lean more towards having another tab in > > system-config-services that manages them like xinetd. I am open to > > suggestions though. > > exposing NMDispatcher controlled services like xinetd is handled now > is probably fine. > Here's the next question. > > How do you add more services to NMDispatcher's control? From a > packager's perspective what do I have to do to ship a package with a > network based service script? Am I going to have to ship two different > versions of the script? One for the legacy network system and another > for the NMDispatcher? > Sure now you start answering the hard questions. Well the scripts I use are all based around the same generic dispatcher.d script. The only variance is whether you check in /var/lock/subsys or /var/run to figure out if the daemon is always running. Other than that they just run service NAMEOFSERVICE on/off/restart. If we could standardize and put all our lock files or pid files in a single place then we could run a single script from dispatcher.d that wraps symlinks put in /etc/rc.d/rcN.d/ and does the appropriate thing to the service. hmmm, that is confusing. /etc/NetworkManager/dispatcher.d/network-services on interface up it loops through /etc/rc.d/rcN.d/S(*) and either service $1 start or service $1 restart depending whether /var/run/$1 exists or not. Now that I look at it like that does it make sense to make network-services an actual init-script that is responsible for for /etc/rc.d/rcN.d/ If we are running NetworkManager it is activated through dispatcher.d, otherwise we just enable it in standard init after network. I think that should work. Jon From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Sep 13 23:38:23 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:38:23 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131559m58afd4a9n9a74214c6a05db64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1189726703.4468.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2007-09-13 at 19:19 -0400, Jon Nettleton wrote: > > Sure now you start answering the hard questions. Well the scripts I > use are all based around the same generic dispatcher.d script. The > only variance is whether you check in /var/lock/subsys or /var/run to > figure out if the daemon is always running. Other than that they just > run service NAMEOFSERVICE on/off/restart. If we could standardize and > put all our lock files or pid files in a single place then we could > run a single script from dispatcher.d that wraps symlinks put in > /etc/rc.d/rcN.d/ and does the appropriate thing to the service. > > hmmm, that is confusing. > > /etc/NetworkManager/dispatcher.d/network-services > on interface up it loops through > /etc/rc.d/rcN.d/S(*) and either service $1 start or service $1 > restart depending whether > /var/run/$1 exists or not. > > Now that I look at it like that does it make sense to make > network-services an actual init-script that is responsible for for > /etc/rc.d/rcN.d/ > > If we are running NetworkManager it is activated through dispatcher.d, > otherwise we just enable it in standard init after network. > > I think that should work. So I talked a bit to Dan Williams about this today, and he said that the dispatcher will need a bit of love for NM 0.7 to handle the fact that there will possibly be multiple active interfaces, and one default interface. Services could adapt to changes in the set of available interfaces in smarter ways than just ifup -> service start, ifdown -> service stop. Correct me if I am misremembering, Dan. From bnocera at redhat.com Thu Sep 13 23:41:54 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:41:54 +0100 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? Message-ID: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Heya, I was looking at the Live CDs available for F8 test2, and could find it/identify it. http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/releases/test/7.91/Live/i686/ Any hints? Cheers From ml at deadbabylon.de Thu Sep 13 23:48:35 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:48:35 +0200 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <200709140148.41129.ml@deadbabylon.de> Am Fr 14.September 2007 schrieb Bastien Nocera: > Heya, > > I was looking at the Live CDs available for F8 test2, and could find > it/identify it. > > http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/releases/test/7.91/Live/ >i686/ > > Any hints? This one is the desktop livecd (with gnome): Fedora-7.91-Live-i686.iso Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 23:46:08 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:46:08 -0800 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <604aa7910709131646k717c1e2bq3ac2b5374df186d1@mail.gmail.com> On 9/13/07, Bastien Nocera wrote: > Heya, > > I was looking at the Live CDs available for F8 test2, and could find > it/identify it. > > http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/releases/test/7.91/Live/i686/ > > Any hints? I thought Fedora-7.91-Live-i686.iso was the "desktop" live cd. -jef From walters at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 01:13:23 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:13:23 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, If I understand correctly, the main goal is to make it faster for the user to see the login screen. It seems simpler then to just move the login screen earlier in the boot process (i.e. before all the stuff conditional on the network) rather than making everything depend on networking, which just happens to not be started until login. Some of the stuff starting here doesn't make sense outside of a server also...autofs, iscsi etc. We've been just killing that stuff by default for the desktop spin. From walters at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 01:15:41 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:15:41 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually reading this, you have moved GDM very early - but your boot time speedup gains are presumably because you're not starting these services at all until after login? From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 02:04:10 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:04:10 -0800 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> On 9/13/07, Colin Walters wrote: > Some of the stuff starting here doesn't make sense outside of a server > also...autofs, iscsi etc. We've been just killing that stuff by > default for the desktop spin. autofs..... let's talk about autofs for a minute. I've got a home network with a centralized network storage home appliance aimed at home network being used for digital photos. I've got a wife who uses picasa to manage that digital photo collection. Picasa specifically because picasa integrates with blogger and kodak's easy share gallery service which we are paying the yearly fee for. I've got her computer setup to use autofs to see the cifs share from the network storage. Her usage patterns are pretty much dead on target for "home desktop." Picasa isn't going away until f-spot grows some brains concerning integration with Kodak's easy share gallery service. I'm not suggestioning that using autofs is the smartest thing to deal with this situation. How would you deal with it in an autofs-less setup using a home network storage location that must work well with picasa? -jef From walters at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 02:09:03 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:09:03 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Her usage patterns are pretty much dead on target for "home desktop." > Picasa isn't going away until f-spot grows some brains concerning > integration with Kodak's easy share gallery service. I'm not > suggestioning that using autofs is the smartest thing to deal with > this situation. How would you deal with it in an autofs-less setup > using a home network storage location that must work well with > picasa? Doesn't gnomevfs support cifs? I haven't tried though, honestly. But in any case, my opinion on most network file systems is they'd be better replaced by rsync+cron possibly +inotify trigger. From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 02:14:15 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:14:15 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Colin Walters wrote: > Actually reading this, you have moved GDM very early - but your boot > time speedup gains are presumably because you're not starting these > services at all until after login? > My speed gains come from three basic principles 1) I start 1 X server for the whole boot process. I am running rhgb in /etc/gdm/Init/Default before gdm-chooser is run. This gives me two niceties, 1 x-server, as soon as I kill rhgb-client gdm-chooser launches. 2) I am achieving parallel boot by allowing NMD start services as necessary. There is no reason starting a bunch of network dependent services on boot if we don't have link, or wireless because we haven't logged in yet and started nm-applet. As far as the services you call "server" services, well those are just what I run, and I use all of them on my desktop on my home network. I use autofs for my file-services and icsi to connect ot my NAS for backups. This technology will slowly start making to more and more peoples desktops, it is just senseless to start it if you don't have a network connection. 3) I am re-ordering system services that ignore "server services" until after we get to a desktop login. We need dbus, hal, network, selinux, ndc before we are ready to login in most circumstances. Do that get a login prompt, then start everything after we are logged in. There is no reason that cups should start before a login prompt. As always just my way, not necessarily the right way. Jon From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 02:22:25 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:22:25 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Colin Walters wrote: > On 9/13/07, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > Her usage patterns are pretty much dead on target for "home desktop." > > Picasa isn't going away until f-spot grows some brains concerning > > integration with Kodak's easy share gallery service. I'm not > > suggestioning that using autofs is the smartest thing to deal with > > this situation. How would you deal with it in an autofs-less setup > > using a home network storage location that must work well with > > picasa? > > Doesn't gnomevfs support cifs? I haven't tried though, honestly. > > But in any case, my opinion on most network file systems is they'd be > better replaced by rsync+cron possibly +inotify trigger. okay I just threw up a little in my mouth reading this. That might work for a single user, but what about a family of users that want to share photos? If anything I would suggest a webdav enabled svn repo than rsync+cron. Drag and drop data, instant revision control. With some ldap and apache magic you can get user privileges refined as well. Jon From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 02:25:22 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:25:22 -0800 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> On 9/13/07, Colin Walters wrote: > But in any case, my opinion on most network file systems is they'd be > better replaced by rsync+cron possibly +inotify trigger. rsyncing 500 Gig networkable appliances to where exactly? ... like these things: http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?pid=10844 Network-capable large capacity harddrives marketted to home users are a reality. I think I can even get them a Sam's Club and Walmart now. People actually use these things...over home networks... not kidding. I know that gnome-vfs deals with cifs... but picasa doesn't talk gnome-vfs as far as I know. if you can tell me how to get picasa or other non-gnome applications to see a cifs connection managed by gnome-vfs.. i might buy you a beer. -jef"really really really would like to drop the use of autofs"spaleta From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 02:29:17 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:29:17 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/13/07, Colin Walters wrote: > > But in any case, my opinion on most network file systems is they'd be > > better replaced by rsync+cron possibly +inotify trigger. > > rsyncing 500 Gig networkable appliances to where exactly? > ... like these things: > http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?pid=10844 > > Network-capable large capacity harddrives marketted to home users are > a reality. I think I can even get them a Sam's Club and Walmart now. > People actually use these things...over home networks... not kidding. > > I know that gnome-vfs deals with cifs... but picasa doesn't talk > gnome-vfs as far as I know. if you can tell me how to get picasa or > other non-gnome applications to see a cifs connection managed by > gnome-vfs.. i might buy you a beer. > > -jef"really really really would like to drop the use of autofs"spaleta you can do all of this with fuse. When the gvfs2 comes out that will all be included for free. Jon From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 02:29:55 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:29:55 -0800 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910709131929g51b65205uf92b8738f2cd8afc@mail.gmail.com> On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > That might work for a single user, but what about a family of users > that want to share photos? If anything I would suggest a webdav > enabled svn repo than rsync+cron. Drag and drop data, instant > revision control. With some ldap and apache magic you can get user > privileges refined as well. maybe you missed my point. I'm not talking about a central file server that can have mature ldap and apache implementation. This isn't a small business network, with central management. This is a home network that has maybe on average 3 personal computers in use on the network. I'm talking about smb/cifs enabled "bricks" you go to a retail store to purchase then plug into your home network and they are expected to act like a windows file share that can be accessed from each of those home computers. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 02:35:08 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:35:08 -0800 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > you can do all of this with fuse. When the gvfs2 comes out that will > all be included for free. That's a fuse plugin correct? Uhm... fuse doesn't work out of the box in Fedora currently. I _think_ we still ship fuse in such a way that you have to manually take some action add users to the fuse group for users that get to use fuse. Even if gvfs2 is the magic glue that I need to connect non-gnome apps to gnomevfs, we'll have to do something to make fuse work out of the box if we are going to rely on fuse to be the glue moving forward. -jef"when will now be then?... soon!"spaleta From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 02:42:57 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:42:57 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910709131929g51b65205uf92b8738f2cd8afc@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131929g51b65205uf92b8738f2cd8afc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > > That might work for a single user, but what about a family of users > > that want to share photos? If anything I would suggest a webdav > > enabled svn repo than rsync+cron. Drag and drop data, instant > > revision control. With some ldap and apache magic you can get user > > privileges refined as well. > > maybe you missed my point. I'm not talking about a central file > server that can have mature ldap and apache implementation. This isn't > a small business network, with central management. This is a home > network that has maybe on average 3 personal computers in use on the > network. I'm talking about smb/cifs enabled "bricks" you go to a > retail store to purchase then plug into your home network and they are > expected to act like a windows file share that can be accessed from > each of those home computers. > Oh I understand. That is what you get now, but another year or so you will get what I am describing. It all completely makes sense as an evolutionary step. I am not really sure why everyone hates autofs so much. I am always looking for something better, but for general purpose file sharing it just works. Jon From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 02:50:52 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:50:52 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > > you can do all of this with fuse. When the gvfs2 comes out that will > > all be included for free. > > That's a fuse plugin correct? Uhm... fuse doesn't work out of the box > in Fedora currently. I _think_ we still ship fuse in such a way that > you have to manually take some action add users to the fuse group for > users that get to use fuse. Even if gvfs2 is the magic glue that I > need to connect non-gnome apps to gnomevfs, we'll have to do something > to make fuse work out of the box if we are going to rely on fuse to be > the glue moving forward. > hmmm works for me out of the box. I am actually working on a couple of different filesystems right now that are all based on fuse. Fedora doesn't ship with any plugins by default, but the fuse kernel module is there. Is it because the kernel module isn't loaded by default? I load mine in /etc/sysconfig/modules I definitely think we need a gui to add more functionality there. I have remove cpuspeed from boot and the acpi modules from rc.sysinit and replaced them with scripts in that directory. It seems a shame that the infrastructure was added and nothing changed to take advantage of it. Jon From notting at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 03:01:38 2007 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:01:38 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070914030137.GA20307@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jon Nettleton (jon.nettleton at gmail.com) said: > I definitely think we need a gui to add more functionality there. I > have remove cpuspeed from boot and the acpi modules from rc.sysinit > and replaced them with scripts in that directory. It seems a shame > that the infrastructure was added and nothing changed to take > advantage of it. That's because it's a crap infrastructure. :) Seriously, acpi modules should be autoloaded based on DMI and ACPI table matching (almost done), and the governors should probably be built-in (as userspace is generally wrong.) Bill From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 03:16:36 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:16:36 -0800 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910709132016s7e43af66j79e92e598635126d@mail.gmail.com> On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > hmmm works for me out of the box. I am actually working on a couple > of different filesystems right now that are all based on fuse. I love being wrong. I'll dig back into this. -jef From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 03:20:57 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:20:57 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <20070914030137.GA20307@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <20070914030137.GA20307@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jon Nettleton (jon.nettleton at gmail.com) said: > > I definitely think we need a gui to add more functionality there. I > > have remove cpuspeed from boot and the acpi modules from rc.sysinit > > and replaced them with scripts in that directory. It seems a shame > > that the infrastructure was added and nothing changed to take > > advantage of it. > > That's because it's a crap infrastructure. :) > > Seriously, acpi modules should be autoloaded based on DMI and ACPI > table matching (almost done), and the governors should probably be > built-in (as userspace is generally wrong.) > All that sounds great. As with everything I have said before all my stuff I have worked on is right here and right now. My intention is to stop the bleeding of Fedora becoming an under-used under-appreciated desktop distribution by making small effective changes now. Once we get more people excited about Fedora Desktop it will knock the ball out of the park when we implement the more refined infra-structure pieces. Jon From notting at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 04:14:17 2007 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:14:17 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <20070914030137.GA20307@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20070914041417.GA23584@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jon Nettleton (jon.nettleton at gmail.com) said: > > That's because it's a crap infrastructure. :) > > > > Seriously, acpi modules should be autoloaded based on DMI and ACPI > > table matching (almost done), and the governors should probably be > > built-in (as userspace is generally wrong.) > > All that sounds great. As with everything I have said before all my stuff I > have worked on is right here and right now. My intention is to stop the > bleeding of Fedora becoming an under-used under-appreciated > desktop distribution by making small effective changes now. Sure. I just don't see what you gain by replacing a shell script that loads modules... with a different shell script. Bill From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 14 04:42:41 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:12:41 +0530 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910709131646k717c1e2bq3ac2b5374df186d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <604aa7910709131646k717c1e2bq3ac2b5374df186d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EA1141.5010008@fedoraproject.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/13/07, Bastien Nocera wrote: >> Heya, >> >> I was looking at the Live CDs available for F8 test2, and could find >> it/identify it. >> >> http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/releases/test/7.91/Live/i686/ >> >> Any hints? > > I thought Fedora-7.91-Live-i686.iso was the "desktop" live cd. It really should be renamed to match what we call it. Rahul From alexl at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 08:17:20 2007 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:17:20 +0200 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2007-09-13 at 18:35 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > > you can do all of this with fuse. When the gvfs2 comes out that will > > all be included for free. > > That's a fuse plugin correct? Uhm... fuse doesn't work out of the box > in Fedora currently. I _think_ we still ship fuse in such a way that > you have to manually take some action add users to the fuse group for > users that get to use fuse. Yes we do. And this is totally stupid and will cause pain in the future when all sorts of features (like gvfs) start using fuse. I have no idea why this was done, but it has to be fixed. From alexl at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 08:18:02 2007 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:18:02 +0200 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1189757882.3331.79.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2007-09-13 at 22:50 -0400, Jon Nettleton wrote: > On 9/13/07, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > > > you can do all of this with fuse. When the gvfs2 comes out that will > > > all be included for free. > > > > That's a fuse plugin correct? Uhm... fuse doesn't work out of the box > > in Fedora currently. I _think_ we still ship fuse in such a way that > > you have to manually take some action add users to the fuse group for > > users that get to use fuse. Even if gvfs2 is the magic glue that I > > need to connect non-gnome apps to gnomevfs, we'll have to do something > > to make fuse work out of the box if we are going to rely on fuse to be > > the glue moving forward. > > > hmmm works for me out of the box. I am actually working on a couple > of different filesystems right now that are all based on fuse. Fedora > doesn't ship with any plugins by default, but the fuse kernel module > is there. Is it because the kernel module isn't loaded by default? I > load mine in /etc/sysconfig/modules Whats required is that you have to add your user to the fuse group. From fedora at leemhuis.info Fri Sep 14 08:56:15 2007 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:56:15 +0200 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> On 14.09.2007 10:17, Alexander Larsson wrote: > On Thu, 2007-09-13 at 18:35 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: >>> you can do all of this with fuse. When the gvfs2 comes out that will >>> all be included for free. >> That's a fuse plugin correct? Uhm... fuse doesn't work out of the box >> in Fedora currently. I _think_ we still ship fuse in such a way that >> you have to manually take some action add users to the fuse group for >> users that get to use fuse. > Yes we do. And this is totally stupid and will cause pain in the future > when all sorts of features (like gvfs) start using fuse. I have no idea > why this was done, but it has to be fixed. Thx for your kind words to your fellow Fedora developers, much appreciated ;-) (?) I decided that -- but not alone. In fact IIRC I was urged by lots of high-rank-Fedora-developers (including jeremy and someone from the security team IIRC) to *not* ship fuse as a suid-binary for everyone, as back then (in the early days when fuse hit the kernel) it was highly unclear if the fuse userspace tools were safe enough. If that has changed: sure, let's get rid of this extra burden with adding the user to a special group. But that's up to the current maintainer. CU knurd (?) -- No, I'm don't have a problem with calling a decision of mine "totally stupid" (I sometimes do myself). But I think it's not helpful when done in public. IOW: This IMHO is just another occurrence that confirms by impression that "the tone on the fedora lists IMHO gets worse and worse" (?) -- that's IMHO bad as it might be deterring to new developers or lurkers on the list that might fear hard words more then we do. /me always wonders if people on a party or a conference would go to the podium and say "foo is totally stupid" if the chance that the one that is responsible for "foo" is in the auditorium (?)http://thorstenl.blogspot.com/2007/07/evolution-or-growth-of-fedora.html From bnocera at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 09:53:27 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:53:27 +0100 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: <46EA1141.5010008@fedoraproject.org> References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <604aa7910709131646k717c1e2bq3ac2b5374df186d1@mail.gmail.com> <46EA1141.5010008@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1189763607.7983.148.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On 9/13/07, Bastien Nocera wrote: > >> Heya, > >> > >> I was looking at the Live CDs available for F8 test2, and could find > >> it/identify it. > >> > >> http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/releases/test/7.91/Live/i686/ > >> > >> Any hints? > > > > I thought Fedora-7.91-Live-i686.iso was the "desktop" live cd. > > It really should be renamed to match what we call it. Hence my confusion. From ml at deadbabylon.de Fri Sep 14 09:55:49 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:55:49 +0200 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD Message-ID: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> Hi. Due to some changes in the past (anaconda requires zenity requires yelp requires firefox / wallpaper is now in gnome-backgrounds which requires desktop-backgrounds-basic) the size of the kde livecd is exploding. I think the easiest way of saving some space is to remove some fonts. But I need some help with this to not remove some essential fonts for some people. The included fonts atm are: bitmap-fonts cjkunifonts-ukai cjkunifonts-uming dejavu-lgc-fonts fontconfig fonts-arabic fonts-bengali fonts-chinese fonts-gujarati fonts-hebrew fonts-hebrew-fancy fonts-hindi fonts-ISO8859-2 fonts-ISO8859-2-100dpi fonts-ISO8859-2-75dpi fonts-japanese fonts-kannada fonts-KOI8-R fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi fonts-KOI8-R-75dpi fonts-korean fonts-malayalam fonts-oriya fonts-punjabi fonts-sinhala fonts-tamil fonts-telugu fonts-truetype-apl fonts-x11-apl ghostscript-fonts jomolhari-fonts liberation-fonts libfontenc libXfont libXfontcache sazanami-fonts-gothic sazanami-fonts-mincho urw-fonts xorg-x11-fonts-100dpi xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-1-100dpi xorg-x11-fonts-misc xorg-x11-fonts-truetype xorg-x11-fonts-Type1 xorg-x11-font-utils Suggestions? Sebastian P.S.: The full package list of my actual version is listed here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianVahl/CurrentPackageList -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 10:08:02 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 06:08:02 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <20070914041417.GA23584@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <20070914030137.GA20307@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20070914041417.GA23584@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On 9/14/07, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jon Nettleton (jon.nettleton at gmail.com) said: > > > That's because it's a crap infrastructure. :) > > > > > > Seriously, acpi modules should be autoloaded based on DMI and ACPI > > > table matching (almost done), and the governors should probably be > > > built-in (as userspace is generally wrong.) > > > > All that sounds great. As with everything I have said before all my stuff I > > have worked on is right here and right now. My intention is to stop the > > bleeding of Fedora becoming an under-used under-appreciated > > desktop distribution by making small effective changes now. > > Sure. I just don't see what you gain by replacing a shell script that > loads modules... with a different shell script. > I think the big win with changes like this is consistency. Right now there are 5 differents methods for loading modules on startup. 1) initrd. Of course this is necessary, but mkinitrd it doesn't respect changes made to /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist. 2) Traditional modprobe.conf, but now we have added /etc/modprobe.d/* 3) /etc/rc.modules 4) some modules right in /etc/rc.sysinit 5) and the new guy /etc/sysconfig/modules One of the goals of a small change like this is to start getting ready for larger changes by having an organized system. If we don't like /etc/sysconfig/modules then let's get rid of it. What we have now just seems disjoint and confusing. Jon From walters at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 12:39:33 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:39:33 -0400 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: Related to this, the torrents page (being the default download page that users land on from clicking "Get Fedora") is pretty bad: http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/ Looking at it, you have to know what FEL means, what Live means, and even if you know those, what are the tradeoffs for Developer versus the (we need to call it Desktop not just -Live), etc? It also encourages people to download the DVD which is silly. The "Live media" x86_64 images not fitting on a CD is confusing; we need to at least note on the page that you need a USB key. If we rearranged this page to be around descriptions of the different spins it would be a lot clearer: * The Fedora Desktop spin is suitable for ...[text] | [i386] [ppc] [x86_64] (note requires USB key) * The Fedora KDE spin is ...[text] | [i386] [ppc] * The Fedora Electronic lab includes... [text] | [i386] This reorganization would also help explain what to name the files for the download links. From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 12:40:50 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:40:50 -0400 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD In-Reply-To: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> References: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> Message-ID: <1189773650.4216.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 11:55 +0200, Sebastian Vahl wrote: > Hi. > > Due to some changes in the past (anaconda requires zenity requires yelp > requires firefox / wallpaper is now in gnome-backgrounds which requires > desktop-backgrounds-basic) the size of the kde livecd is exploding. I > think the easiest way of saving some space is to remove some fonts. But > I need some help with this to not remove some essential fonts for some > people. > I think it would be better to investigate these problematic dependencies and see what we can do about them. Some of them sound very fixable. From katzj at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 12:47:40 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:47:40 -0400 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1189774060.14591.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 08:39 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > Related to this, the torrents page (being the default download page > that users land on from clicking "Get Fedora") is pretty bad: [snip] > Looking at it, you have to know what FEL means, what Live means, and > even if you know those, what are the tradeoffs for Developer versus > the (we need to call it Desktop not just -Live), etc? Honestly, I think that the entire "Get Fedora" page needs to be improved. If you ever go directly to the list at torrent.fedoraproject.org, it should be because a) You're a long-time Fedora user and know exactly what you're looking for b) You're a rawhide tester (not ideal, but doing a whole splashy page for rawhide torrents is probably overkill) The Get Fedora page really could do with a description of the options available as you mention, perhaps even with screenshots and largely guide you towards an answer. And ultimately, the file names shouldn't really matter. My attempts to get some people interested in working on it were less than successful, though, and we want me to design a web page just barely before I start drawing artwork :-) Jeremy From rdieter at math.unl.edu Fri Sep 14 13:09:53 2007 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:09:53 -0500 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD References: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> Message-ID: Sebastian Vahl wrote: > Hi. > > Due to some changes in the past (anaconda requires zenity requires yelp > requires firefox / wallpaper is now in gnome-backgrounds which requires > desktop-backgrounds-basic) the size of the kde livecd is exploding. I > think the easiest way of saving some space is to remove some fonts. But > I need some help with this to not remove some essential fonts for some > people. Heck, since we make no bones about the fact that kde-livecd is English only, most of the following could be candidates for omission: > cjkunifonts-ukai > cjkunifonts-uming > fonts-arabic > fonts-bengali > fonts-chinese > fonts-gujarati > fonts-hebrew > fonts-hebrew-fancy > fonts-hindi > fonts-ISO8859-2 > fonts-ISO8859-2-100dpi > fonts-ISO8859-2-75dpi > fonts-japanese > fonts-kannada > fonts-KOI8-R > fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi > fonts-KOI8-R-75dpi > fonts-korean > fonts-malayalam > fonts-oriya > fonts-punjabi > fonts-sinhala > fonts-tamil > fonts-telugu > fonts-truetype-apl > fonts-x11-apl > jomolhari-fonts > sazanami-fonts-gothic > sazanami-fonts-mincho From rdieter at math.unl.edu Fri Sep 14 13:13:09 2007 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:13:09 -0500 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD References: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> <1189773650.4216.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 11:55 +0200, Sebastian Vahl wrote: >> Hi. >> >> Due to some changes in the past (anaconda requires zenity requires yelp >> requires firefox / wallpaper is now in gnome-backgrounds which requires >> desktop-backgrounds-basic) the size of the kde livecd is exploding... > I think it would be better to investigate these problematic dependencies > and see what we can do about them. Some of them sound very fixable. Agreed. Re: anaconda -> ... -> firefox, I thought this had been resolved? Re: gnome-backgrounds: what wallpaper in there (now) that kde needs? -- Rex From walters at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 13:23:13 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:23:13 -0400 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: <1189774060.14591.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1189774060.14591.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 9/14/07, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > Honestly, I think that the entire "Get Fedora" page needs to be > improved. If you ever go directly to the list at > torrent.fedoraproject.org, it should be because > a) You're a long-time Fedora user and know exactly what you're looking > for Ok, well I was just clicking on the top link on each page. > The Get Fedora page really could do with a description of the options > available as you mention, perhaps even with screenshots and largely > guide you towards an answer. And ultimately, the file names shouldn't > really matter. Ok, moving it directly to the Get Fedora page makes sense too. > My attempts to get some people interested in working on it were less > than successful, though, and we want me to design a web page just barely > before I start drawing artwork :-) > I think at this point we mainly need to define the structure and flow; someone with a bit more design skills can come along later and fix =) Is this page in CVS somewhere? From notting at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 12:53:24 2007 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:53:24 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <20070914030137.GA20307@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20070914041417.GA23584@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20070914125324.GA28108@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jon Nettleton (jon.nettleton at gmail.com) said: > > Sure. I just don't see what you gain by replacing a shell script that > > loads modules... with a different shell script. > > I think the big win with changes like this is consistency. Right now > there are 5 differents methods for loading modules on startup. > > 1) initrd. Of course this is necessary, but mkinitrd it doesn't > respect changes made to /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist. Really? modprobe --show-depends pulls in things from the blacklist? Sounds like a bug. > 3) /etc/rc.modules Should probably be nuked - it's time for it to go. > 4) some modules right in /etc/rc.sysinit Already removed in CVS. > 5) and the new guy /etc/sysconfig/modules Not that new. It's 2 1/2 years old. Bill From notting at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 12:55:46 2007 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:55:46 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <20070914030137.GA20307@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20070914041417.GA23584@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20070914125546.GB28108@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jon Nettleton (jon.nettleton at gmail.com) said: > One of the goals of a small change like this is to start getting ready > for larger changes by having an organized system. If we don't like > /etc/sysconfig/modules then let's get rid of it. What we have now > just seems disjoint and confusing. To elaborate, we don't like it *as a distribution mechanism*. It's fine to have something like that for local customization. But, realistically, if people need modules loaded for their hardware on bootup that aren't getting automatically loaded, it's a *bug* that needs to be fixed. Bill From notting at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 13:41:30 2007 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:41:30 -0400 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD In-Reply-To: References: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> <1189773650.4216.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20070914134130.GA30526@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Rex Dieter (rdieter at math.unl.edu) said: > Re: anaconda -> ... -> firefox, I thought this had been resolved? > Re: gnome-backgrounds: what wallpaper in there (now) that kde needs? Don't know about *gnome*-backgrounds, but the new infinity artwork is in desktop-backgrounds-basic. Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 13:47:31 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:47:31 -0400 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD In-Reply-To: <20070914134130.GA30526@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> <1189773650.4216.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070914134130.GA30526@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1189777651.4216.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 09:41 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rex Dieter (rdieter at math.unl.edu) said: > > Re: anaconda -> ... -> firefox, I thought this had been resolved? > > Re: gnome-backgrounds: what wallpaper in there (now) that kde needs? > > Don't know about *gnome*-backgrounds, but the new infinity artwork > is in desktop-backgrounds-basic. I'm still waiting for Ray to send a mail about his artwork package reorganization... Part of that is creating a separate infinity-backgrounds package. From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 13:54:30 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:54:30 -0400 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: <1189763607.7983.148.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <604aa7910709131646k717c1e2bq3ac2b5374df186d1@mail.gmail.com> <46EA1141.5010008@fedoraproject.org> <1189763607.7983.148.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <20070914095430.1780f239@lumos.localdomain> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:53:27 +0100 Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > I thought Fedora-7.91-Live-i686.iso was the "desktop" live cd. > > > > It really should be renamed to match what we call it. > > Hence my confusion. I think this group created the confusion when they started calling it the "Desktop" Live image. From day one this was the image that Fedora wanted to put out as /THE/ Fedora image. As in if you don't want one of the special spins, this is /THE/ spin we want you to have, and we want the media to focus on, and we want to hand out at events. The premiere, spectacular, most special spin, that gets the grand name space of "Fedora Live Image". You've created confusion by referring to it as the "Desktop" image. Maybe that's because you want to create a second live image that is more experimental and not the premiere live image, and that's fine, and it does deserve a special name, but that's a different beast than what is /the/ Fedora image right now. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 14:07:14 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:07:14 -0400 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: <20070914095430.1780f239@lumos.localdomain> References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <604aa7910709131646k717c1e2bq3ac2b5374df186d1@mail.gmail.com> <46EA1141.5010008@fedoraproject.org> <1189763607.7983.148.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <20070914095430.1780f239@lumos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1189778834.4216.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 09:54 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:53:27 +0100 > Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > > I thought Fedora-7.91-Live-i686.iso was the "desktop" live cd. > > > > > > It really should be renamed to match what we call it. > > > > Hence my confusion. > > I think this group created the confusion when they started calling it > the "Desktop" Live image. From day one this was the image that Fedora > wanted to put out as /THE/ Fedora image. As in if you don't want one > of the special spins, this is /THE/ spin we want you to have, and we > want the media to focus on, and we want to hand out at events. The > premiere, spectacular, most special spin, that gets the grand name > space of "Fedora Live Image". You've created confusion by referring to > it as the "Desktop" image. Maybe that's because you want to create a > second live image that is more experimental and not the premiere live > image, and that's fine, and it does deserve a special name, but that's > a different beast than what is /the/ Fedora image right now. The goal of the desktop sig is to create a live image that is optimized for desktop use. That doesn't mean "experimental". But it does mean that we want to get out of the position that we can't do changes that improve the desktop experience but may not work on an ppc64 print server. And I don't think it serves Fedora well to have a totally generic image as /THE/ Fedora image, when most of the downloaded images will be used in a desktop scenario. From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 14:10:31 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:10:31 -0400 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: <1189778834.4216.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <604aa7910709131646k717c1e2bq3ac2b5374df186d1@mail.gmail.com> <46EA1141.5010008@fedoraproject.org> <1189763607.7983.148.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <20070914095430.1780f239@lumos.localdomain> <1189778834.4216.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20070914101031.7f61d09a@lumos.localdomain> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:07:14 -0400 Matthias Clasen wrote: > And I don't think it serves Fedora well to have a totally generic > image as /THE/ Fedora image, when most of the downloaded images will > be used in a desktop scenario. How is it "totally generic"? We want /the/ Fedora live image to be for Desktops as this is the target audience of Live images. If we want to make a Live image for running a ppc64 print server we'll make a Live-Server image. We're trying to promote you, not hide you away in the sea of other choices... -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:12:14 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:12:14 -0400 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: <20070914095430.1780f239@lumos.localdomain> References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <604aa7910709131646k717c1e2bq3ac2b5374df186d1@mail.gmail.com> <46EA1141.5010008@fedoraproject.org> <1189763607.7983.148.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <20070914095430.1780f239@lumos.localdomain> Message-ID: On 9/14/07, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:53:27 +0100 > Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > > I thought Fedora-7.91-Live-i686.iso was the "desktop" live cd. > > > > > > It really should be renamed to match what we call it. > > > > Hence my confusion. > > I think this group created the confusion when they started calling it > the "Desktop" Live image. From day one this was the image that Fedora > wanted to put out as /THE/ Fedora image. As in if you don't want one > of the special spins, this is /THE/ spin we want you to have, and we > want the media to focus on, and we want to hand out at events. The > premiere, spectacular, most special spin, that gets the grand name > space of "Fedora Live Image". You've created confusion by referring to > it as the "Desktop" image. Maybe that's because you want to create a > second live image that is more experimental and not the premiere live > image, and that's fine, and it does deserve a special name, but that's > a different beast than what is /the/ Fedora image right now. > Now I am confused. I thought we were working on a separate spin of Fedora with experimental "desktop" features and configurations. Would a name like Enhanced Desktop Spin be better? Then we could refer to it as the E.D. Spin :-) Jon From walters at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 14:48:49 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:48:49 -0400 Subject: No Desktop Live CD? In-Reply-To: <20070914095430.1780f239@lumos.localdomain> References: <1189726914.7983.145.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <604aa7910709131646k717c1e2bq3ac2b5374df186d1@mail.gmail.com> <46EA1141.5010008@fedoraproject.org> <1189763607.7983.148.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <20070914095430.1780f239@lumos.localdomain> Message-ID: On 9/14/07, Jesse Keating wrote: > I think this group created the confusion when they started calling it > the "Desktop" Live image. From day one this was the image that Fedora > wanted to put out as /THE/ Fedora image. What should be on /THE/ Fedora image? The web site says: "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in free and open source software." You know Apache httpd is pretty important open source software, why doesn't the CD have it? Eclipse? Why not OpenOffice? The latest KDE? Saying it's the Fedora image gives us no guidelines for what it includes. The point I'm trying to make, and that I brought up before when we were originally discussing the desktop spin, is that I believe relatively few people want to *download* a showcase. I think we should very much pimp that Fedora is built on (showcases) the latest and greatest FOSS, but in the end people want to download something to use for a specific *purpose*. And that takes different forms for different markets. The desktop spin was supposed to be suitable as a general non-developer download, showcasing GNOME etc. The KDE spin is targeted for those people. The developer spin is for the people who want gcc and editors out of the box. > As in if you don't want one > of the special spins, this is /THE/ spin we want you to have, and we > want the media to focus on, and we want to hand out at events. At events, I suggest that ideally we want to get to the point where the DVD when it boots up lets you choose which of the spins you want to install. The spins are fundamentally just a comps group + kickstart file. If you don't want to burn a DVD, then you have to choose what to put on it. At a developer focused conference, you'd want to be handing out the developer spin. From walters at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 15:11:39 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:11:39 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > That might work for a single user, but what about a family of users > that want to share photos? If anything I would suggest a webdav > enabled svn repo than rsync+cron. Drag and drop data, instant > revision control. With some ldap and apache magic you can get user > privileges refined as well. > Right - which gets to my point which is that in very few situations do you actually want a remote filesystem. For backing up photos, you actually don't want to support permanent delete for example, or at least it should be very hard to do. Your svn repository would be like that. But to go back to why I think autofs/iscsi and other kernel-mounted filesystems are a bad idea for the desktop is because you need to design for the laptop case, and my experience with all kernel-mounted filesystems and laptops has been uninterruptible processes hung on IO after you disconnect from the network. By putting things in user space you avoid this insanity, and it's a heck of a lot simpler. I'm sure there are situations in which kernel-mounted NFS is appropriate, but it's one of those technologies I go out of my way to avoid because there is almost always a better way. From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 16:36:37 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:36:37 -0800 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <604aa7910709140936n6a5d0378m2af94da95155838b@mail.gmail.com> On 9/14/07, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > (?) -- No, I'm don't have a problem with calling a decision of mine > "totally stupid" (I sometimes do myself). But I think it's not helpful > when done in public. > > IOW: This IMHO is just another occurrence that confirms by impression > that "the tone on the fedora lists IMHO gets worse and worse" (?) -- > that's IMHO bad as it might be deterring to new developers or lurkers on > the list that might fear hard words more then we do. I think i this case we can put the blame completely on Jeremy. So its perfectly fair to say that Jeremy was totally stupid.... and you were just an innocent victim of his masterful power of persuasion. Speaking of which, I'm going to be pitching a comedy spin-off of Heros to NBC, which has stories for not-so-dramatic superpower storylines with Jeremy's badly applied superhuman power of persuasion will be the season opener! > > /me always wonders if people on a party or a conference would go to the > podium and say "foo is totally stupid" if the chance that the one that > is responsible for "foo" is in the auditorium Actually a statement like that to open up a conference presentation is a great way to have the audience pay attention. That would definitely be a memorable presentation: "Hey did you see the youtube video of Jef's presentation where he totally went crazy and called the xrandr developers idiots?" "Yeah!" "Dude, what an jackass." "Yeah" "He was like foaming at the mouth and stuff." "Didn't Jef make that video in his parent's basement?" "Looks like it" "Jackass" I think people on the lists communicate by and large exactly how they would communicate in any established small working group settings... say for example the 4th lab group assignment in a college course. Not the first assignment, at the beginning of the class when people don't really know each other yet. But the fourth assignment, after the group members have pretty much gained an intuitive feel for the personality quirks of the rest of the group. Except on the lists, you're interacting with people you haven't actually had enough face-to-face time with to get an accurate intuitive feel for them so its much easier to cross the line from passionated impersonal discussion into personal offense without ever knowing you crossed it. -jef From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 18:11:10 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:11:10 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/14/07, Colin Walters wrote: > On 9/13/07, Jon Nettleton wrote: > > > That might work for a single user, but what about a family of users > > that want to share photos? If anything I would suggest a webdav > > enabled svn repo than rsync+cron. Drag and drop data, instant > > revision control. With some ldap and apache magic you can get user > > privileges refined as well. > > > > Right - which gets to my point which is that in very few situations do > you actually want a remote filesystem. For backing up photos, you > actually don't want to support permanent delete for example, or at > least it should be very hard to do. Your svn repository would be like > that. > > But to go back to why I think autofs/iscsi and other kernel-mounted > filesystems are a bad idea for the desktop is because you need to > design for the laptop case, and my experience with all kernel-mounted > filesystems and laptops has been uninterruptible processes hung on IO > after you disconnect from the network. By putting things in user > space you avoid this insanity, and it's a heck of a lot simpler. > > I'm sure there are situations in which kernel-mounted NFS is > appropriate, but it's one of those technologies I go out of my way to > avoid because there is almost always a better way. > a lot of this will also be alleviated once we get a proper location manager. I have a semi-working one right now based on an overlay fs on top of /etc. Each location is a different subversion branch and only changed files get stored in the overlay. It also exposes the location through dbus for a user-space app. It is a long way from reliable and finished but I am happy with the design so far. Jon From nphilipp at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 21:11:08 2007 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:11:08 +0200 Subject: plans for system-config-services, was: early-gdm redux In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> <1189722685.4468.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910709131552s566a2276s83f905dec5cfd7eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1189804268.14893.26.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Thu, 2007-09-13 at 19:06 -0400, Jon Nettleton wrote: > I can think of two approaches. > > a) Do this in system-config-services. Checking NetworkManager and > Dispatcher on makes the Network-Services tab active and disables > "known services" from the init list and enables them in the > Network-Services list. Disabling these does the reverse of course. > > b) Only have these services in the Network-Services tab or run-level > N for chkconfig and extend /etc/init.d/network to run through the > /etc/NetworkManager/dispatcher.d/ directory and run the S* services. > This message is a little off because it basically puts partial init > functionality in the network script. The code should be trivial > though. Don't get too attached to tabs in system-config-services. My plan is to get rid of them altogether and have all services (SysVinit-, xinetd- and eventually network-based or (more generically) on-demand services) in one list. Each entry in this list would consist of the service name, its enabled/disabled and running/not running status. Now selecting an entry would finally show the gory details: type of service, in which runlevels it is enabled/disabled in case of a SysVinit service, etc. Now what I really don't want to do is deal with service type transitions (NMD gets stopped -> network-based services get normal SysVinit services again) as I don't see real value behind it. If network-based services need a daemon to run properly then it better ran. It's not really a new situation -- if xinetd doesn't run, xinetd-based services don't get started. Just as with every other basic building block of the system. Makes sense? Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Sep 14 21:15:24 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:15:24 -0400 Subject: plans for system-config-services, was: early-gdm redux In-Reply-To: <1189804268.14893.26.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> <1189722685.4468.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910709131552s566a2276s83f905dec5cfd7eb@mail.gmail.com> <1189804268.14893.26.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1189804524.4181.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 23:11 +0200, Nils Philippsen wrote: > Now what I really don't want to do is deal with service type transitions > (NMD gets stopped -> network-based services get normal SysVinit services > again) as I don't see real value behind it. If network-based services > need a daemon to run properly then it better ran. It's not really a new > situation -- if xinetd doesn't run, xinetd-based services don't get > started. Just as with every other basic building block of the system. > > Makes sense? As long as it will be able to support both traditional networking setups (for servers) and NM-based setups, it should be fine. I don't think going back and forth between these two at runtime is very interesting. From nphilipp at redhat.com Sat Sep 15 00:00:38 2007 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:00:38 +0200 Subject: plans for system-config-services, was: early-gdm redux In-Reply-To: <1189804524.4181.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910709131507g531e7330pd3730c41d0dcdaff@mail.gmail.com> <1189722685.4468.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910709131552s566a2276s83f905dec5cfd7eb@mail.gmail.com> <1189804268.14893.26.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1189804524.4181.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1189814438.14893.61.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 17:15 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 23:11 +0200, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > > Now what I really don't want to do is deal with service type transitions > > (NMD gets stopped -> network-based services get normal SysVinit services > > again) as I don't see real value behind it. If network-based services > > need a daemon to run properly then it better ran. It's not really a new > > situation -- if xinetd doesn't run, xinetd-based services don't get > > started. Just as with every other basic building block of the system. > > > > Makes sense? > > As long as it will be able to support both traditional networking setups > (for servers) and NM-based setups, it should be fine. That should be possible, as long as s-c-services can properly distinguish between the two types -- at the moment everything in /etc/init.d is treated as a SysVinit service. As I understand it, "on-demand" or "event-triggered" services, and whatever they're called that's what these "network-based" services are, shall be started through dbus in the long run. I don't think adding kludges in s-c-services to support an artificial runlevel "N" for that is a good thing to do. > I don't think > going back and forth between these two at runtime is very interesting. No. Actually I think that one service can be startable through both SysVinit and on-demand by dbus and s-c-services should in that case offer control over both types. It might be a bit tricky to do UI wise, but I think this nut is crackable ;-). Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From pemboa at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 06:46:03 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 01:46:03 -0500 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best Message-ID: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> Ever since the behavior of having Xorg guess resolutions has been implemented, I have little to no luck with it. Of at least 6 fedora installs I've done since then it has never guessed a resolution that is comfortable (for lack of a better word) and on some occasions it has required rebooting into runlevel 3 - not exactly a problem, but not very friendly. That ranges from desktop to laptops, native to VM ( Parallels ) and standard to widescreen displays. It has deterred a computer savvy friend of mine from using Fedora because on both attempts, installation went fie, but Xorgs choice of resolution through his LCD into panic in which it turns off (forgot the message it prints) - again, fairly easy for me to fix, but he doesn't know how exactly and so has put it of, busy people. Most annoying to me however is that I must put on my monitor, at least before the gdm/kdm or i get a bloated, unusable resolution, it as simple as Ctrl+Alt+Backspace but it is still quite annoying. I had set several modes, now I have it down to just `Modes "1280x960"` and still that behavior continues, I'm not sure why it doesn't trust my xorg.conf. I have a ViewSonic PF790 display and my Smolt UUID is 'a141fbad-6bc1-419a-a5e7-1c247d90184a' if that helps. I should add that it did guess right on my laptop, but that might be because my laptop only does 1024x768 and 800x600 - limited options Arthur Pemberton -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) From pemboa at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 06:47:21 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 01:47:21 -0500 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16de708d0709142347p5d67cd14l99dcab04e02960f4@mail.gmail.com> I forgot to mention that my desktop uses the 'nvidia' driver, however, it was no better at guessing with the 'nv' driver. From mattdm at mattdm.org Sat Sep 15 11:24:51 2007 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 07:24:51 -0400 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070915112451.GA6253@jadzia.bu.edu> On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 01:46:03AM -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > Ever since the behavior of having Xorg guess resolutions has been > implemented, I have little to no luck with it. It's been pretty good to me. What video cards are you using? -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From fedora at leemhuis.info Sat Sep 15 12:08:39 2007 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:08:39 +0200 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910709140936n6a5d0378m2af94da95155838b@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <604aa7910709140936n6a5d0378m2af94da95155838b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EBCB47.8080901@leemhuis.info> On 14.09.2007 18:36, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/14/07, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> (?) -- No, I'm don't have a problem with calling a decision of mine >> "totally stupid" (I sometimes do myself). But I think it's not helpful >> when done in public. >> IOW: This IMHO is just another occurrence that confirms by impression >> that "the tone on the fedora lists IMHO gets worse and worse" (?) -- >> that's IMHO bad as it might be deterring to new developers or lurkers on >> the list that might fear hard words more then we do. > I think i this case we can put the blame completely on Jeremy. So its > perfectly fair to say that Jeremy was totally stupid.... and you were > just an innocent victim of his masterful power of persuasion. It wasn't his decision alon and I backed the idea ;-) When I handed over the package to someone else I even said explicit: don't remove that stuff! But as I said: I can live with being called "totally stupid" -- I'm around long enough and got used to it. > [...] >> /me always wonders if people on a party or a conference would go to the >> podium and say "foo is totally stupid" if the chance that the one that >> is responsible for "foo" is in the auditorium > Actually a statement like that to open up a conference presentation is > a great way to have the audience pay attention. [...] Hehe, yeah, I suppose it would. > I think people on the lists communicate by and large exactly how they > would communicate in any established small working group settings... > say for example the 4th lab group assignment in a college course. Not > the first assignment, at the beginning of the class when people don't > really know each other yet. But the fourth assignment, after the group > members have pretty much gained an intuitive feel for the personality > quirks of the rest of the group. Except on the lists, you're > interacting with people you haven't actually had enough face-to-face > time with to get an accurate intuitive feel for them so its much > easier to cross the line from passionated impersonal discussion into > personal offense without ever knowing you crossed it. Fully agreed. I'd even would like to add something: In this "college course" (aka this list) there are constantly new people watching from the side if they should join the never-ending-course. And that's what we want IMHO: join us, help us. But if you would look for a area to jum in and watch a course where people are rude or unfriendly to each other without need: would you join it or look out for another (friendlier) course? Cu knurd From pemboa at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 18:58:54 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:58:54 -0500 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <20070915112451.GA6253@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <20070915112451.GA6253@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <16de708d0709151158k4d93c1b0x850494becbb7eae0@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/07, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 01:46:03AM -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > Ever since the behavior of having Xorg guess resolutions has been > > implemented, I have little to no luck with it. > > It's been pretty good to me. What video cards are you using? Aside from the one in my smolt profile, I've also attempted in Parallels on a Mac, and I believe an embedded Nvidia chipset on an HP machine, sorry, can't recall details more than this -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) From dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org Sat Sep 15 21:30:11 2007 From: dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org (Douglas McClendon) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:30:11 -0500 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <16de708d0709151158k4d93c1b0x850494becbb7eae0@mail.gmail.com> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <20070915112451.GA6253@jadzia.bu.edu> <16de708d0709151158k4d93c1b0x850494becbb7eae0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EC4EE3.9090600@filteredperception.org> Arthur Pemberton wrote: > On 9/15/07, Matthew Miller wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 01:46:03AM -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: >>> Ever since the behavior of having Xorg guess resolutions has been >>> implemented, I have little to no luck with it. >> It's been pretty good to me. What video cards are you using? > > Aside from the one in my smolt profile, I've also attempted in > Parallels on a Mac, and I believe an embedded Nvidia chipset on an HP > machine, sorry, can't recall details more than this It might be worth taking a look at how debian and ubuntu do it, with dexconf and xdebconfigurator - http://www.penguin-soft.com/penguin/man/8/xdebconfigurator.html I'm still trying to figure out how dexconf, via xdebconfigurator I believe, seems to more correctly configure X to use 1024x768 or larger under qemu, wheras xorg by itself as is configured with f7/f8t2 only comes up in 800x600, which looks pretty lame. I don't know if getting xdebconfigurator to work on fedora is possible. It looks like a conglomeration of various tools, none of which is apparently yet so capable that debian/ubuntu feel it can be relied on exclusively. For instance, I suspect the -r option uses this read-edid tool, which I was using on a mandrake livecd I built 6 years ago, to good effect. If you want to try it out to see what it is capable of, I suggest just burning and booting ubuntu-7.04, or perhaps a recent build of the debian-gnome-livecd http://live.debian.net/cdimage/weekly-builds/ Good luck, -dmc From martin.sourada at seznam.cz Mon Sep 17 11:52:33 2007 From: martin.sourada at seznam.cz (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:52:33 +0200 Subject: Nautilus default in spatial mode? Message-ID: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> Hi, I know this was discussed hundred times already, but I again ran to a F8T2 review [1] which mentions this. Why is the nautilus defaulted to spatial mode? IMHO, the browser mode is much more effective, has the very useful sidepanel (treeview and bookmarks are the most usefull ones), and opens only one window. Is there any reason to stay with spatial mode, while almost anyone complains about it? Thanks, Martin PS: I know, that I can change it very fast, but shouldn't the default be the more effective one? References: [1] http://blogbeebe.blogspot.com/2007/09/fedora-8-test-2-nano-review.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Sep 17 12:18:17 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 15:18:17 +0300 Subject: Nautilus default in spatial mode? In-Reply-To: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <46EE7089.4070306@nicubunu.ro> Martin Sourada wrote: > > I know this was discussed hundred times already, but I again ran to a > F8T2 review [1] which mentions this. Why is the nautilus defaulted to > spatial mode? IMHO, the browser mode is much more effective, has the > very useful sidepanel (treeview and bookmarks are the most usefull > ones), and opens only one window. Is there any reason to stay with > spatial mode, while almost anyone complains about it? I believe the main reason is spatial is the default in upstream GNOME. You know, what *you* or *I* consider more effective is not extremely relevant, as we are so-called "power users", net necessarily representative (with that said, I am quite ambivalent for Spatial or Browser, maybe with a slight preference for Spatial, where the tree view does not waste space when not needed) Changing the default from Spatial to Browser could also generate the backslash of people ranting on their blogs about Browser not being the best choice, blog complaints are not an useful metric. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From ajackson at redhat.com Mon Sep 17 13:43:18 2007 From: ajackson at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:43:18 -0400 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <46EC4EE3.9090600@filteredperception.org> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <20070915112451.GA6253@jadzia.bu.edu> <16de708d0709151158k4d93c1b0x850494becbb7eae0@mail.gmail.com> <46EC4EE3.9090600@filteredperception.org> Message-ID: <1190036598.7686.141.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2007-09-15 at 16:30 -0500, Douglas McClendon wrote: > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > On 9/15/07, Matthew Miller wrote: > >> On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 01:46:03AM -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > >>> Ever since the behavior of having Xorg guess resolutions has been > >>> implemented, I have little to no luck with it. > >> It's been pretty good to me. What video cards are you using? > > > > Aside from the one in my smolt profile, I've also attempted in > > Parallels on a Mac, and I believe an embedded Nvidia chipset on an HP > > machine, sorry, can't recall details more than this > > It might be worth taking a look at how debian and ubuntu do it, with > dexconf and xdebconfigurator - > > http://www.penguin-soft.com/penguin/man/8/xdebconfigurator.html > > I'm still trying to figure out how dexconf, via xdebconfigurator I > believe, seems to more correctly configure X to use 1024x768 or larger > under qemu, wheras xorg by itself as is configured with f7/f8t2 only > comes up in 800x600, which looks pretty lame. X can't tell when it's running under qemu. All it knows is that it's talking to something that looks like an old Cirrus Logic card. The qemu authors have repeatedly refused to give X any hint that it's really something better so we can pick larger resolutions by default. - ajax From ajackson at redhat.com Mon Sep 17 13:46:41 2007 From: ajackson at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:46:41 -0400 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1190036801.7686.145.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2007-09-15 at 01:46 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > Ever since the behavior of having Xorg guess resolutions has been > implemented, I have little to no luck with it. > > Of at least 6 fedora installs I've done since then it has never > guessed a resolution that is comfortable (for lack of a better word) > and on some occasions it has required rebooting into runlevel 3 - not > exactly a problem, but not very friendly. That ranges from desktop to > laptops, native to VM ( Parallels ) and standard to widescreen > displays. I'm missing some details here. You say it guesses wrong, but don't say what it guesses, or what you would prefer. I do have an idea for choosing better, but it's really hard to heuristic this properly. Partly because the X drivers are still limited and can't resize _up_ from whatever it chooses initially. - ajax From rdieter at math.unl.edu Mon Sep 17 13:49:11 2007 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:49:11 -0500 Subject: Can Name=GenericName go away now, please? Message-ID: yes, this is a pet-peave of mine, bear that in mind while I vent Can apps start using better menu names now, so users know which apps are really behind the mysterious generic items in menus, e.g., Internet->Contacts (evolution) Internet->Email (evolution) Internet->Internet Messenger (pidgin) Internet->IRC (xchat) Office->Calendar (evolution) Office->Word Processor (oowriter) Office->Spreadsheet (oocalc) ... please please, pretty please? -- Rex From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Mon Sep 17 14:31:01 2007 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:31:01 -0400 Subject: Nautilus default in spatial mode? In-Reply-To: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1190039461.23490.1.camel@kennedy> On Mon, 2007-09-17 at 13:52 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote: > I know this was discussed hundred times already, but I again ran to a > F8T2 review [1] which mentions this. Why is the nautilus defaulted to > spatial mode? IMHO, the browser mode is much more effective, has the > very useful sidepanel (treeview and bookmarks are the most usefull > ones), and opens only one window. Is there any reason to stay with > spatial mode, while almost anyone complains about it? 1. It's the nautilus default. If you want it changed, it should be done upstream. 2. Plenty of people like it. Later, /B -- Brian Pepple http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BrianPepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Mon Sep 17 17:11:44 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:11:44 -0400 Subject: Nautilus default in spatial mode? In-Reply-To: <46EE7089.4070306@nicubunu.ro> References: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> <46EE7089.4070306@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <46EEB550.7030906@prodigy.net.mx> Nicu Buculei escribi?: > Martin Sourada wrote: >> >> I know this was discussed hundred times already, but I again ran to a >> F8T2 review [1] which mentions this. Why is the nautilus defaulted to >> spatial mode? IMHO, the browser mode is much more effective, has the >> very useful sidepanel (treeview and bookmarks are the most usefull >> ones), and opens only one window. Is there any reason to stay with >> spatial mode, while almost anyone complains about it? > > I believe the main reason is spatial is the default in upstream GNOME. > > You know, what *you* or *I* consider more effective is not extremely > relevant, as we are so-called "power users", net necessarily > representative (with that said, I am quite ambivalent for Spatial or > Browser, maybe with a slight preference for Spatial, where the tree > view does not waste space when not needed) On the contrary, less technically inclined people are the ones more vocal about the spatial mode in Nautilus. I would have to agree with them, it is plain dumb. Pretty much all the users and new users have been conditioned to browser mode file management simply due to a Windows background. Power users, on the other hand, may find spatial mode more useful, apparently. > > Changing the default from Spatial to Browser could also generate the > backslash of people ranting on their blogs about Browser not being the > best choice, blog complaints are not an useful metric. > If that were the case, why doesn't people complaint about Konqueror being "browser mode - only"? I too believe that the default should be made the mode which is actually *easier* to use and not the more "convenient" to use, as apparently only "Power Users" like and use spatial mode (I still have to find someone who likes it in the first place). From a user perspective, it would seem that regular users and inexperienced users are the ones pleading for browser mode. From roguexz at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 21:31:46 2007 From: roguexz at gmail.com (Rogue) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 03:01:46 +0530 Subject: Nautilus default in spatial mode? In-Reply-To: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <46EEF242.20409@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Martin Sourada wrote: > Hi, > > I know this was discussed hundred times already, but I again ran to a > F8T2 review [1] which mentions this. Why is the nautilus defaulted to > spatial mode? IMHO, the browser mode is much more effective, has the > very useful sidepanel (treeview and bookmarks are the most usefull > ones), and opens only one window. +1 for that. I got my mom to use fedora, and now she enjoys the browser-mode better, /especially/ the bookmarks mode. Given that Fedora does create a helpful directory structure, like Documents, Music, Pictures, etc.,[1], I think we should try and promote the browser mode. Now, if people think that it is an extremely bad idea, then how about providing a simple wizard, which will provide options like: 1. Customize your desktop - like wallpapers / themes / colors -- may be also provide an option for downloading new items. 2. Customize the way your applications behave - like setting your preferred applications, etc. 3. And some other things under the sun :-) Just my views. later, Rogue [1] - I know there are a lot of people who do not like it, but from a desktop perspective for most users in my family who are not very tech-savvy, it works great. Well, they are all 50+ years old :-) And I definitely do not wish to star a flame war right now =) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFG7vJCceS9IQvx51YRAn8PAJ9y7OvC4TY0KpWWvvWQ+rhPv+V4FgCgqfQf K+r+idwhlvwYN5vBnvYnzvk= =UWU3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ml at deadbabylon.de Mon Sep 17 22:00:12 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 00:00:12 +0200 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD In-Reply-To: References: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> Message-ID: <20070918000012.49c31295@htpc> Am Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:09:53 -0500 schrieb Rex Dieter : > Sebastian Vahl wrote: > > > Hi. > > > > Due to some changes in the past (anaconda requires zenity requires > > yelp requires firefox / wallpaper is now in gnome-backgrounds which > > requires desktop-backgrounds-basic) the size of the kde livecd is > > exploding. I think the easiest way of saving some space is to > > remove some fonts. But I need some help with this to not remove > > some essential fonts for some people. > > Heck, since we make no bones about the fact that kde-livecd is > English only, most of the following could be candidates for omission: > > > cjkunifonts-ukai > > cjkunifonts-uming > > fonts-arabic > > fonts-bengali > > fonts-chinese > > fonts-gujarati > > fonts-hebrew > > fonts-hebrew-fancy > > fonts-hindi > > fonts-ISO8859-2 > > fonts-ISO8859-2-100dpi > > fonts-ISO8859-2-75dpi > > fonts-japanese > > fonts-kannada > > fonts-KOI8-R > > fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi > > fonts-KOI8-R-75dpi > > fonts-korean > > fonts-malayalam > > fonts-oriya > > fonts-punjabi > > fonts-sinhala > > fonts-tamil > > fonts-telugu > > fonts-truetype-apl > > fonts-x11-apl > > jomolhari-fonts > > sazanami-fonts-gothic > > sazanami-fonts-mincho So would it be a safe option to remove this fonts? Or does this maybe affect people using some of this fonts if they want to watch a website in this language? Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ml at deadbabylon.de Mon Sep 17 22:13:45 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 00:13:45 +0200 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD In-Reply-To: References: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> <1189773650.4216.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20070918001345.01dcb742@htpc> Am Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:13:09 -0500 schrieb Rex Dieter : > Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 11:55 +0200, Sebastian Vahl wrote: > >> Hi. > >> > >> Due to some changes in the past (anaconda requires zenity requires > >> yelp requires firefox / wallpaper is now in gnome-backgrounds > >> which requires desktop-backgrounds-basic) the size of the kde > >> livecd is exploding... > > > I think it would be better to investigate these problematic > > dependencies and see what we can do about them. Some of them sound > > very fixable. > > Agreed. > > Re: anaconda -> ... -> firefox, I thought this had been resolved? Yeah, I've thought so, too. In one spin I've created (just before the sig meeting where I mentioned this) firefox was gone. So I've thought it this issue was resolved. But the next day it was back. So maybe I was too blind to see it. > Re: gnome-backgrounds: what wallpaper in there (now) that kde needs? /usr/share/backgrounds/images/default.png is now (or atm) just a symlink to /usr/share/backgrounds/infinity/am00.png. default.png is in desktop-backgrounds-basic, am00.png was in gnome-backgrounds - now it is also in deskop-backgrounds-basic. But kdesktop fails about the symlink: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=290571 Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pemboa at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 23:52:55 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:52:55 -0500 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <1190036801.7686.145.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <1190036801.7686.145.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <16de708d0709171652of4e2482hd01872b909fa7835@mail.gmail.com> On 9/17/07, Adam Jackson wrote: > On Sat, 2007-09-15 at 01:46 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > Ever since the behavior of having Xorg guess resolutions has been > > implemented, I have little to no luck with it. > > > > Of at least 6 fedora installs I've done since then it has never > > guessed a resolution that is comfortable (for lack of a better word) > > and on some occasions it has required rebooting into runlevel 3 - not > > exactly a problem, but not very friendly. That ranges from desktop to > > laptops, native to VM ( Parallels ) and standard to widescreen > > displays. > > I'm missing some details here. You say it guesses wrong, but don't say > what it guesses, or what you would prefer. For lack of me knowing how to get the current resolution at the console level, coupled with bad memory, I can't say that I remember the exact values that it gets wrong. What it gets wrong, is the attempted screen resolutions, often using out of range (for LCDs) or extreme ( very small or very large) resolutions. > I do have an idea for choosing better, but it's really hard to heuristic > this properly. Partly because the X drivers are still limited and can't > resize _up_ from whatever it chooses initially. I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying here. Still, why does xorg _not_ use what's in xorg.conf just because the monitor is off? -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Sep 18 06:11:05 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:11:05 +0300 Subject: Nautilus default in spatial mode? In-Reply-To: <46EEB550.7030906@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> <46EE7089.4070306@nicubunu.ro> <46EEB550.7030906@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <46EF6BF9.1000403@nicubunu.ro> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Nicu Buculei escribi?: >> >> Changing the default from Spatial to Browser could also generate the >> backslash of people ranting on their blogs about Browser not being the >> best choice, blog complaints are not an useful metric. > > If that were the case, why doesn't people complaint about Konqueror > being "browser mode - only"? I too believe that the default should be Probably because Konqueror was always browser only? > made the mode which is actually *easier* to use and not the more > "convenient" to use, as apparently only "Power Users" like and use This may be because effective use of our spatial mode require unusual shortcuts (double-click with the wheel), which only "power users" bother to remember. > spatial mode (I still have to find someone who likes it in the first > place). From a user perspective, it would seem that regular users and > inexperienced users are the ones pleading for browser mode. I won't argue either way, I don't have the means to conduct such experiment but someone else in this thread (Brian) argued for the opposite, so I believe you found at least one :p -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Sep 18 06:24:58 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:24:58 +0300 Subject: Nautilus default in spatial mode? In-Reply-To: <46EEF242.20409@gmail.com> References: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> <46EEF242.20409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EF6F3A.1040803@nicubunu.ro> Rogue wrote: > > I got my mom to use fedora, and now she enjoys the browser-mode better, > /especially/ the bookmarks mode. Is any possibility she like the browser mode because she learned how to use it from you? I can understand people liking the browser mode for the tree view or for the history view, but bookmarks are very convenient also in spatial using the Places menu. > Given that Fedora does create a helpful directory structure, like > Documents, Music, Pictures, etc.,[1], I think we should try and promote > the browser mode. After this talk I looked a little at the browser mode: I tend to like it the best with the sidebar and toolbar off, it looks much like spatial but have inversed shortcuts and the useful location bar (instead of the location drop-down). > Now, if people think that it is an extremely bad idea, then how about > providing a simple wizard, which will provide options like: Like a second first boot screen? -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From alexl at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 08:35:44 2007 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:35:44 +0200 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 10:56 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > On 14.09.2007 10:17, Alexander Larsson wrote: > >> That's a fuse plugin correct? Uhm... fuse doesn't work out of the box > >> in Fedora currently. I _think_ we still ship fuse in such a way that > >> you have to manually take some action add users to the fuse group for > >> users that get to use fuse. > > Yes we do. And this is totally stupid and will cause pain in the future > > when all sorts of features (like gvfs) start using fuse. I have no idea > > why this was done, but it has to be fixed. > > Thx for your kind words to your fellow Fedora developers, much > appreciated ;-) (?) > > I decided that -- but not alone. In fact IIRC I was urged by lots of > high-rank-Fedora-developers (including jeremy and someone from the > security team IIRC) to *not* ship fuse as a suid-binary for everyone, as > back then (in the early days when fuse hit the kernel) it was highly > unclear if the fuse userspace tools were safe enough. > > If that has changed: sure, let's get rid of this extra burden with > adding the user to a special group. But that's up to the current > maintainer. If its not safe then wouldn't a better solution be to fix it or not ship/install it. Making every user have to be added to the fuse group means: 1) Its not useable by default, meaning extra work for all users, and features mystically not working before some magic sysadmin incantation. (We could make it "easy" to detect this and add users to this group, but then again, why have the group?) 2) When important things in the desktop start requiring fuse everyone will be in the fuse group anyway, meaning any security is lost. (One could say this only happens on "desktop" machines, but if you don't trust fuse userspace on your server, just don't install it there.) I agree that stupid was a bad word, and I don't mean to flame anyone in particular. I just think that this decision has no real value security-wise, and it will be quite negative when things actually start using fuse. Perhaps it was the right choice early on in the life of fuse, but i don't think it makes sense by now. From pemboa at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 08:41:46 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 03:41:46 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for Firefox benchmarks Message-ID: <16de708d0709180141w2f2498feu4b4e9e02f33fde42@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I find Firefox on Fedora Core 7 to be near unusably slow. As such, I am hoping for some suggestions on how I came quantify Firefox's performance. At present, I only have relative evidence: On Firefox/Fedora I only have "Dom Inspector", "Adblock", and "DownloadThemAll" where as on my much slower laptop machine Firefox/WinXP has the same addons, plus many more with no noticeable slowdowns. I do have Flash 9 installed, however, I have seen no correlation between Flash and slowdowns. At one point i hit a vmsize for firefox of over 900MB, unfortunately I didn't take proper note of the circumstances. Since I haven't done anything special to Firefox, I'm hoping to gather some more objective information, possible find out if there is really a problem. Please advise, Arthur Pemberton -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 18 08:38:55 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:08:55 +0530 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD In-Reply-To: <20070918000012.49c31295@htpc> References: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> <20070918000012.49c31295@htpc> Message-ID: <46EF8E9F.1000403@fedoraproject.org> Sebastian Vahl wrote: > > So would it be a safe option to remove this fonts? Or does this maybe > affect people using some of this fonts if they want to watch a website > in this language? Yes it does affect a lot of people if we want good support for those languages out of the box. There has been some recent changes regarding what fonts are installed by default in the regular image which you can see in fedora-devel list. Matching that would be good. Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Sep 18 08:45:10 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:45:10 +0300 Subject: Suggestions for Firefox benchmarks In-Reply-To: <16de708d0709180141w2f2498feu4b4e9e02f33fde42@mail.gmail.com> References: <16de708d0709180141w2f2498feu4b4e9e02f33fde42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EF9016.8010708@nicubunu.ro> Arthur Pemberton wrote: > I find Firefox on Fedora Core 7 to be near unusably slow. As such, I > am hoping for some suggestions on how I came quantify Firefox's > performance. > > At present, I only have relative evidence: > On Firefox/Fedora I only have "Dom Inspector", "Adblock", and > "DownloadThemAll" where as on my much slower laptop machine > Firefox/WinXP has the same addons, plus many more with no noticeable > slowdowns. Instead of comparing with the Windows version, go to the Mozilla website, download the vanilla Linux version version and compare with that. > Since I haven't done anything special to Firefox, I'm hoping to gather > some more objective information, possible find out if there is really > a problem. IIRC, the slowness of Firefox is known and is because Fedora's version makes use of additional features (like Pango) but I am not sure it is measured exactly. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Sep 18 09:34:29 2007 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:34:29 +0200 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46EF9BA5.9010105@leemhuis.info> On 18.09.2007 10:35, Alexander Larsson wrote: > On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 10:56 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> On 14.09.2007 10:17, Alexander Larsson wrote: >>>> That's a fuse plugin correct? Uhm... fuse doesn't work out of the box >>>> in Fedora currently. I _think_ we still ship fuse in such a way that >>>> you have to manually take some action add users to the fuse group for >>>> users that get to use fuse. >>> Yes we do. And this is totally stupid and will cause pain in the future >>> when all sorts of features (like gvfs) start using fuse. I have no idea >>> why this was done, but it has to be fixed. >> [...] >> I decided that -- but not alone. In fact IIRC I was urged by lots of >> high-rank-Fedora-developers (including jeremy and someone from the >> security team IIRC) to *not* ship fuse as a suid-binary for everyone, as >> back then (in the early days when fuse hit the kernel) it was highly >> unclear if the fuse userspace tools were safe enough. >> >> If that has changed: sure, let's get rid of this extra burden with >> adding the user to a special group. But that's up to the current >> maintainer. > > If its not safe then wouldn't a better solution be to fix it or not > ship/install it. In a perfect world: agreed. But we don't live in one afaics :-/ Fedora is a community distribution, and we IMHO can't put the burden on packagers to high, as there otherwise won't be much of a community anymore that takes care of Fedora. "Fix it" would be way to high burden, as lot's of the Fedora maintainers have only basic or next-to-none programming skills -- nevertheless they do lots of work for Fedora, and that's a good thing for Fedora. In "my perfect Fedora world" they hopefully take over those "easy" tasks from people with more skills, so the latter have more time for other stuff that requires their skills. Not shipping something or waiting forever for someone with enough skills to show up to fix it is not always a real option either afaics, as that might take so long, that users get disappointed and switch to another distro, which is also what we don't want. > Making every user have to be added to the fuse group means: > > 1) Its not useable by default, meaning extra work for all users, and > features mystically not working before some magic sysadmin > incantation. > (We could make it "easy" to detect this and add users to this group, > but then again, why have the group?) Fully agreed in general. But for fuse it was a compromise back then and IMHO an acceptable one. I *sometimes* wonder if rpm/Fedora should have a (rarely used!) way for packagers to notify the sysadmin with stuff like "hey, you installed mysql, but you need to set a password for the database" (the init scripts from mysqld do exactly that ATM, but one can easily miss that informations). Similar stuff could be used for fuse for the problem at hand. > 2) When important things in the desktop start requiring fuse everyone > will be in the fuse group anyway, meaning any security is lost. > (One could say this only happens on "desktop" machines, but if you > don't trust fuse userspace on your server, just don't install it > there.) No offense, but well, if "important things in the desktop start requiring fuse" I suppose people programming that stuff first make sure it's safe and wise to use fuse, as it might backfire to their apps if fuse is unsafe. It's likely nothing more then asking the Fedora developers "can we get rid of the add-to-a-specific-group stuff for fuse over the next few months? I want to use fuse for important things in the desktop" *before* starting to really depend on fuse. BTW, thanks for working on gvfs2 -- looks promising. > [...] I just think that this decision has no real value > security-wise, and it will be quite negative when things actually start > using fuse. Perhaps it was the right choice early on in the life of > fuse, Agreed. > but i don't think it makes sense by now. Might be the case. But as I said: I'm not the maintainer anymore. Talk to him about it (and maybe those core-fedora developers that vetoed SUID-root fuse back then). CU knurd From tiagomatos at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 10:33:21 2007 From: tiagomatos at gmail.com (Rui Tiago =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ca=E7=E3o?= Matos) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:33:21 +0100 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <46EF9BA5.9010105@leemhuis.info> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EF9BA5.9010105@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1190111601.2780.5.camel@hive> On Ter, 2007-09-18 at 11:34 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Might be the case. But as I said: I'm not the maintainer anymore. Talk > to him about it (and maybe those core-fedora developers that vetoed > SUID-root fuse back then). Somewhat uninformed opinion but: can't D-Bus system activation with its suid helper be used to do a fuse mount thus making the fuse binaries not needing to have any extraordinary bit set? There could be a D-Bus policy file that admins could edit and by default only console (local) users should be allowed to use this "mount service". 2 cents worth Rui -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From alexl at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 11:11:27 2007 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:11:27 +0200 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <46EF9BA5.9010105@leemhuis.info> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EF9BA5.9010105@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1190113887.3904.139.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 11:34 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > On 18.09.2007 10:35, Alexander Larsson wrote: > > 2) When important things in the desktop start requiring fuse everyone > > will be in the fuse group anyway, meaning any security is lost. > > (One could say this only happens on "desktop" machines, but if you > > don't trust fuse userspace on your server, just don't install it > > there.) > > No offense, but well, if "important things in the desktop start > requiring fuse" I suppose people programming that stuff first make sure > it's safe and wise to use fuse, as it might backfire to their apps if > fuse is unsafe. I had no idea that Fedora was doing this to its fuse packaging when designing gvfs. I've looked into fuse a bit, and it seemed safe to me. > It's likely nothing more then asking the Fedora developers "can we get > rid of the add-to-a-specific-group stuff for fuse over the next few > months? I want to use fuse for important things in the desktop" *before* > starting to really depend on fuse. Yeah. From alexl at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 11:14:07 2007 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:14:07 +0200 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <1190111601.2780.5.camel@hive> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EF9BA5.9010105@leemhuis.info> <1190111601.2780.5.camel@hive> Message-ID: <1190114047.3904.142.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 11:33 +0100, Rui Tiago Ca??o Matos wrote: > On Ter, 2007-09-18 at 11:34 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > Might be the case. But as I said: I'm not the maintainer anymore. Talk > > to him about it (and maybe those core-fedora developers that vetoed > > SUID-root fuse back then). > > Somewhat uninformed opinion but: can't D-Bus system activation with its > suid helper be used to do a fuse mount thus making the fuse binaries not > needing to have any extraordinary bit set? There could be a D-Bus policy > file that admins could edit and by default only console (local) users > should be allowed to use this "mount service". What your proposing is a quite a large change in how fuse works. I don't quite see the advantage of doing it just to use a different setuid helper. From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Sep 18 11:16:12 2007 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:16:12 +0200 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <1190111601.2780.5.camel@hive> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EF9BA5.9010105@leemhuis.info> <1190111601.2780.5.camel@hive> Message-ID: <46EFB37C.3070304@leemhuis.info> On 18.09.2007 12:33, Rui Tiago Ca??o Matos wrote: > On Ter, 2007-09-18 at 11:34 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> Might be the case. But as I said: I'm not the maintainer anymore. Talk >> to him about it (and maybe those core-fedora developers that vetoed >> SUID-root fuse back then). > > Somewhat uninformed opinion but: can't D-Bus system activation with its > suid helper be used to do a fuse mount thus making the fuse binaries not > needing to have any extraordinary bit set? There could be a D-Bus policy > file that admins could edit and by default only console (local) users > should be allowed to use this "mount service". I don't think it would make much of a difference in the end and it would likely be way more complicated. CU knurd From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 11:56:06 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:56:06 +0100 Subject: Replacing the bittorrent client Message-ID: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Heya, Does anyone have any objections to me replacing the "official" bittorrent client (~2 megs) with Transmission (~500k)? Transmission is better integrated in the desktop, smaller in size, and better maintained. Cheers From jon.nettleton at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 12:44:44 2007 From: jon.nettleton at gmail.com (Jon Nettleton) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:44:44 -0400 Subject: Nautilus default in spatial mode? In-Reply-To: <46EF6BF9.1000403@nicubunu.ro> References: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> <46EE7089.4070306@nicubunu.ro> <46EEB550.7030906@prodigy.net.mx> <46EF6BF9.1000403@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: On 9/18/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > Nicu Buculei escribi?: > >> > >> Changing the default from Spatial to Browser could also generate the > >> backslash of people ranting on their blogs about Browser not being the > >> best choice, blog complaints are not an useful metric. > > > > If that were the case, why doesn't people complaint about Konqueror > > being "browser mode - only"? I too believe that the default should be > > Probably because Konqueror was always browser only? > > > made the mode which is actually *easier* to use and not the more > > "convenient" to use, as apparently only "Power Users" like and use > > This may be because effective use of our spatial mode require unusual > shortcuts (double-click with the wheel), which only "power users" bother > to remember. > I have been thinking of adding an open to nautilus that allows changing the button behavior. left clicking opening a window and closing a parent and using middle-click to keep them open. Personally I love spatial mode, but I still wish I had that behavior. > > spatial mode (I still have to find someone who likes it in the first > > place). From a user perspective, it would seem that regular users and > > inexperienced users are the ones pleading for browser mode. I think you are really referring to Windows comfortable users here. Most the inexperienced users I have put in front of gnome really find spatial intuitive. My fiance has all her different photo/movie/music windows opening on her screen just so. Now if only there was a better way to organize her desktop :-) > > I won't argue either way, I don't have the means to conduct such > experiment but someone else in this thread (Brian) argued for the > opposite, so I believe you found at least one :p Personally I think the gnome community has gone through the change once, and we should stick with it. Jon From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Sep 18 12:53:18 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:53:18 +0300 Subject: Replacing the bittorrent client In-Reply-To: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <46EFCA3E.9060505@nicubunu.ro> Bastien Nocera wrote: > Does anyone have any objections to me replacing the "official" > bittorrent client (~2 megs) with Transmission (~500k)? > > Transmission is better integrated in the desktop, smaller in size, and > better maintained. +1 Since I found Transmission, it is my BT client of choice. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 13:03:15 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:03:15 -0400 Subject: Replacing the bittorrent client In-Reply-To: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1190120595.4395.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 12:56 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > Heya, > > Does anyone have any objections to me replacing the "official" > bittorrent client (~2 megs) with Transmission (~500k)? > > Transmission is better integrated in the desktop, smaller in size, and > better maintained. > Sounds fine to me. From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 13:44:45 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:44:45 +0100 Subject: Replacing the bittorrent client In-Reply-To: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1190123085.13408.82.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 12:56 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > Heya, > > Does anyone have any objections to me replacing the "official" > bittorrent client (~2 megs) with Transmission (~500k)? > > Transmission is better integrated in the desktop, smaller in size, and > better maintained. No complaints, and people cheering on IRC, so done for Fedora 8. From ajackson at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 13:35:00 2007 From: ajackson at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:35:00 -0400 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <16de708d0709171652of4e2482hd01872b909fa7835@mail.gmail.com> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <1190036801.7686.145.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709171652of4e2482hd01872b909fa7835@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1190122500.7686.227.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2007-09-17 at 18:52 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > On 9/17/07, Adam Jackson wrote: > > On Sat, 2007-09-15 at 01:46 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > > Ever since the behavior of having Xorg guess resolutions has been > > > implemented, I have little to no luck with it. > > > > > > Of at least 6 fedora installs I've done since then it has never > > > guessed a resolution that is comfortable (for lack of a better word) > > > and on some occasions it has required rebooting into runlevel 3 - not > > > exactly a problem, but not very friendly. That ranges from desktop to > > > laptops, native to VM ( Parallels ) and standard to widescreen > > > displays. > > > > I'm missing some details here. You say it guesses wrong, but don't say > > what it guesses, or what you would prefer. > > For lack of me knowing how to get the current resolution at the > console level, coupled with bad memory, I can't say that I remember > the exact values that it gets wrong. What it gets wrong, is the > attempted screen resolutions, often using out of range (for LCDs) or > extreme ( very small or very large) resolutions. xrandr or xdpyinfo will tell you. > > I do have an idea for choosing better, but it's really hard to heuristic > > this properly. Partly because the X drivers are still limited and can't > > resize _up_ from whatever it chooses initially. > > I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying here. I have to guess at an initial screen size. I can't _know_ what the physical size in pixels is, because the monitor does not tell me. It doesn't even tell me whether "physical size in pixels" is a meaningful concept for the monitor type, or whether it's a CRT or an LCD, or lots of other things that would be useful information. It merely tells me some modes and sync ranges that it claims it can support, and a hint about which mode it prefers. The hint about which mode it prefers is often garbage. 1280x1024 is not a good mode for a 4:3 monitor. Your shiny new HDTV will claim to be 1280x720 even though it's physically 1360x768. And so forth. So what I do instead is try to deduce the aspect ratio of the screen, and then go for the largest mode that will match, preferring the mode the monitor reports as "preferred" if it matches aspect ratio. This happens to pick some really huge resolutions on CRTs sometimes, but I'd rather guess too large than too small. The reason I'd rather guess too large is, for any given run of the X server, the initial mode is also the largest mode in the mode pool, and is the largest mode you can get for that instance of the X server. So the user can RANDR down to the resolution they want - and gdm will remember it, and set that mode the next time they log in - but you can't RANDR up. Also because, really, you can make the UI bigger quite easily, but shrinking things smaller than a pixel is sort of tricky. So, like, if I had some heuristic for guessing "oh yeah, that's a CRT", then I could try to clamp the upper bound of resolutions to, say, no more than 130dpi or something. But I'd hate to implement that and then find someone with a 150dpi LCD that we don't set the native panel size on just because we don't think pixels get that small. Does this clarify the tradeoffs at all? > Still, why does xorg _not_ use what's in xorg.conf just because the > monitor is off? If the monitor is off, I can't talk to it, so I can't ask it what it can do. Note that this is something of a lie, most monitors made since, oh, 2000, will merely look like they're asleep but will still respond over DDC if they have a power cord plugged in. But if I can't talk to it, I'll use what's in the config file. Do you have an example of X not doing so? - ajax From david at lovesunix.net Tue Sep 18 13:52:32 2007 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:52:32 +0200 Subject: Replacing the bittorrent client In-Reply-To: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1190123552.3802.5.camel@dawkins> tir, 18 09 2007 kl. 12:56 +0100, skrev Bastien Nocera: > Heya, > > Does anyone have any objections to me replacing the "official" > bittorrent client (~2 megs) with Transmission (~500k)? > > Transmission is better integrated in the desktop, smaller in size, and > better maintained. I'm personally more fond of deluge, it has features Transmission does not have (last I checked) like seeding only to a set ratio, it has a nice plugin system to extend the client and much more without making the interface azureus-like in complexity. It's very nice, have a look at it. - David From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 14:04:13 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:04:13 +0100 Subject: Replacing the bittorrent client In-Reply-To: <1190123552.3802.5.camel@dawkins> References: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1190123552.3802.5.camel@dawkins> Message-ID: <1190124253.13408.95.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 15:52 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: > tir, 18 09 2007 kl. 12:56 +0100, skrev Bastien Nocera: > > Heya, > > > > Does anyone have any objections to me replacing the "official" > > bittorrent client (~2 megs) with Transmission (~500k)? > > > > Transmission is better integrated in the desktop, smaller in size, and > > better maintained. > > I'm personally more fond of deluge, it has features Transmission does > not have (last I checked) like seeding only to a set ratio, it has a Right-click on a torrent, torrent info, see the options tab. > nice plugin system to extend the client and much more without making the > interface azureus-like in complexity. I found deluge heavier (it's written in Python) and the UI more contrived. Transmission's written in C, and has that GNOME/MacOS X (it's a very popular client on MacOS X) philosophy about keeping things simple, yet powerful. I don't doubt Deluge is nice, but it's far too complicated as a default client, IMO. From katzj at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 14:28:59 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:28:59 -0400 Subject: fuse (Was Re: early-gdm redux) In-Reply-To: <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1190125739.4377.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 10:35 +0200, Alexander Larsson wrote: > On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 10:56 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > On 14.09.2007 10:17, Alexander Larsson wrote: > > >> That's a fuse plugin correct? Uhm... fuse doesn't work out of the box > > >> in Fedora currently. I _think_ we still ship fuse in such a way that > > >> you have to manually take some action add users to the fuse group for > > >> users that get to use fuse. > > > Yes we do. And this is totally stupid and will cause pain in the future > > > when all sorts of features (like gvfs) start using fuse. I have no idea > > > why this was done, but it has to be fixed. > > > > Thx for your kind words to your fellow Fedora developers, much > > appreciated ;-) (?) > > > > I decided that -- but not alone. In fact IIRC I was urged by lots of > > high-rank-Fedora-developers (including jeremy and someone from the > > security team IIRC) to *not* ship fuse as a suid-binary for everyone, as > > back then (in the early days when fuse hit the kernel) it was highly > > unclear if the fuse userspace tools were safe enough. > > > > If that has changed: sure, let's get rid of this extra burden with > > adding the user to a special group. But that's up to the current > > maintainer. > > If its not safe then wouldn't a better solution be to fix it or not > ship/install it. Making sure that things are safe is definitely the right thing to do. suid but only group executable is purely a "start to get it in while not making things less secure by default" > I agree that stupid was a bad word, and I don't mean to flame anyone in > particular. I just think that this decision has no real value > security-wise, and it will be quite negative when things actually start > using fuse. Perhaps it was the right choice early on in the life of > fuse, but i don't think it makes sense by now. It was nothing more than a "someone needs to sit down and really audit fuse". And probably ensuring that we have reasonable SELinux policy around it as well. If someone is willing to do that so that we can feel comfortable making fuse available suid and that we're not then opening up various holes on the system, then let's do it. But until someone actually does that audit, it seems a bit premature and risky to actually have the fuse bits executable by everyone. Jeremy From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue Sep 18 14:57:51 2007 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:57:51 -0500 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD References: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> Message-ID: Sebastian Vahl wrote: > the size of the kde livecd is exploding. > Suggestions? live DVD? :) -- Rex From mcepl at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 15:00:21 2007 From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:00:21 +0200 Subject: Nautilus default in spatial mode? References: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> <46EE7089.4070306@nicubunu.ro> <46EEB550.7030906@prodigy.net.mx> <46EF6BF9.1000403@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: On 2007-09-18, 12:44 GMT, Jon Nettleton wrote: >> > If that were the case, why doesn't people complaint about >> > Konqueror >> > being "browser mode - only"? I too believe that the default should be One of the few reasons why I was glad to switch to Gnome was because konqueror doesn't have spatial mode, but I was too lazy to blog about it (well, I am too lazy to blog at all). Your data are not good enough for any serious conclusion. Matej From pemboa at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 16:17:43 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:17:43 -0500 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD In-Reply-To: References: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> Message-ID: <16de708d0709180917w51f59c2q686cbdc6f07af98a@mail.gmail.com> On 9/18/07, Rex Dieter wrote: > Sebastian Vahl wrote: > > > the size of the kde livecd is exploding. > > Suggestions? > > live DVD? :) > > -- Rex I think we are alienating non broadband users as it is. In the irc rooms, the only CD installation we can suggest to people is the LiveCD. -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) From ml at deadbabylon.de Tue Sep 18 16:22:26 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 18:22:26 +0200 Subject: Reducing fonts on KDE-LiveCD In-Reply-To: <46EF8E9F.1000403@fedoraproject.org> References: <20070914115549.11acca99@htpc> <20070918000012.49c31295@htpc> <46EF8E9F.1000403@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20070918182226.25350738@htpc> Am Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:08:55 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram : > Sebastian Vahl wrote: > > > > > So would it be a safe option to remove this fonts? Or does this > > maybe affect people using some of this fonts if they want to watch > > a website in this language? > > Yes it does affect a lot of people if we want good support for those > languages out of the box. There has been some recent changes > regarding what fonts are installed by default in the regular image > which you can see in fedora-devel list. Matching that would be good. Ok. So including the group "base-x" should match the current decision. And because it's on livecd-fedora-base-desktop I just have to remove "fonts-*" from livecd-fedora-kde.ks. The result would be: bitmap-fonts cjkunifonts-uming dejavu-lgc-fonts fonts-arabic fonts-bengali fonts-gujarati fonts-hebrew fonts-hindi fonts-kannada fonts-korean fonts-oriya fonts-punjabi fonts-sinhala fonts-tamil fonts-telugu ghostscript-fonts jomolhari-fonts liberation-fonts sazanami-fonts-gothic urw-fonts xorg-x11-fonts-100dpi xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-1-100dpi xorg-x11-fonts-misc xorg-x11-fonts-truetype xorg-x11-fonts-Type1 So these ones would be gone because they are defined as "optional" (at least atm): cjkunifonts-ukai fonts-chinese fonts-hebrew-fancy fonts-ISO8859-2 fonts-ISO8859-2-100dpi fonts-ISO8859-2-75dpi fonts-japanese fonts-KOI8-R fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi fonts-KOI8-R-75dpi fonts-malayalam fonts-truetype-apl fonts-x11-apl sazanami-fonts-mincho Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pemboa at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 16:25:01 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:25:01 -0500 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <1190122500.7686.227.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <1190036801.7686.145.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709171652of4e2482hd01872b909fa7835@mail.gmail.com> <1190122500.7686.227.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <16de708d0709180925p28501ad8i806ec3b274f85a52@mail.gmail.com> On 9/18/07, Adam Jackson wrote: > If the monitor is off, I can't talk to it, so I can't ask it what it can > do. Note that this is something of a lie, most monitors made since, oh, > 2000, will merely look like they're asleep but will still respond over > DDC if they have a power cord plugged in. > > But if I can't talk to it, I'll use what's in the config file. Do you > have an example of X not doing so? Yes... the most frustrating part of all. As I've been trying to communicate, xorg does _not_ use my xorg.conf when the monitor is off, and instead uses something on the scale of 800x600 which is so large, the necessary widgets are off screen. -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) From pemboa at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 16:30:51 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:30:51 -0500 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <1190122500.7686.227.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <1190036801.7686.145.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709171652of4e2482hd01872b909fa7835@mail.gmail.com> <1190122500.7686.227.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <16de708d0709180930g36745e97ma2f7bbd048c7fe6d@mail.gmail.com> On 9/18/07, Adam Jackson wrote: > The reason I'd rather guess too large is, for any given run of the X > server, the initial mode is also the largest mode in the mode pool, and > is the largest mode you can get for that instance of the X server. So > the user can RANDR down to the resolution they want - and gdm will > remember it, and set that mode the next time they log in - but you can't > RANDR up. Also because, really, you can make the UI bigger quite > easily, but shrinking things smaller than a pixel is sort of tricky. Good point about not being able to RANDR up, however you can system-config-display up. If your display blanks out due to high resolution, you can't RANDR down, system-config-display, or for most, use said machine to get online assistance. If th display blanks out, the text make be too small for some to read and navigate to a tool the know nothing about called RANDR (maybe it has a better name in the Gnome menu) -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 18 16:41:40 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:11:40 +0530 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <16de708d0709180925p28501ad8i806ec3b274f85a52@mail.gmail.com> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <1190036801.7686.145.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709171652of4e2482hd01872b909fa7835@mail.gmail.com> <1190122500.7686.227.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709180925p28501ad8i806ec3b274f85a52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EFFFC4.8010102@fedoraproject.org> Arthur Pemberton wrote: > On 9/18/07, Adam Jackson wrote: >> If the monitor is off, I can't talk to it, so I can't ask it what it can >> do. Note that this is something of a lie, most monitors made since, oh, >> 2000, will merely look like they're asleep but will still respond over >> DDC if they have a power cord plugged in. >> >> But if I can't talk to it, I'll use what's in the config file. Do you >> have an example of X not doing so? > > Yes... the most frustrating part of all. As I've been trying to > communicate, xorg does _not_ use my xorg.conf when the monitor is off, > and instead uses something on the scale of 800x600 which is so large, > the necessary widgets are off screen. You need to provide more information including your hardware and xorg configuration for others to reproduce and fix any issues. Might be better in a bug report. Rahul From peter at thecodergeek.com Tue Sep 18 16:47:35 2007 From: peter at thecodergeek.com (Peter Gordon) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:47:35 -0700 Subject: Replacing the bittorrent client In-Reply-To: <1190124253.13408.95.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1190123552.3802.5.camel@dawkins> <1190124253.13408.95.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1190134055.13077.10.camel@tuxhugs> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 15:04 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > I found deluge heavier (it's written in Python) and the UI more > contrived. Transmission's written in C, and has that GNOME/MacOS X (it's > a very popular client on MacOS X) philosophy about keeping things > simple, yet powerful. > > I don't doubt Deluge is nice, but it's far too complicated as a default > client, IMO. As the Deluge maintainer in Fedora I'm going to agree rather wholeheartedly with Bastien on this one. It (Deluge) is a really nice client, but for a "Just click and watch it go" client, it is also a lot more complex, in terms of UI. Transmission just feels a lot more first-time-user-friendly in how its UI is structured and its preferences dialog seems a lot more sane. Perhaps it's a misplaced analogy, but I see it similar to Firefox in a lot of ways - Deluge, like Firefox, as a lot of really great features and works well; but an alternative such as Transmission (a la Epiphany to Firefox) has perhaps less features but a much more user-focused UI. Deluge is a very good client, yes; but at the same time I feel that it still needs some TLC before we can consider it for a default setup. My $0.02... -- Peter Gordon (codergeek42) GnuPG Public Key ID: 0xFFC19479 / Fingerprint: DD68 A414 56BD 6368 D957 9666 4268 CB7A FFC1 9479 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pemboa at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 17:04:01 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:04:01 -0500 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <46EFFFC4.8010102@fedoraproject.org> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <1190036801.7686.145.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709171652of4e2482hd01872b909fa7835@mail.gmail.com> <1190122500.7686.227.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709180925p28501ad8i806ec3b274f85a52@mail.gmail.com> <46EFFFC4.8010102@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <16de708d0709181004l21edc902tdda8a0118fb17f65@mail.gmail.com> On 9/18/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > On 9/18/07, Adam Jackson wrote: > >> If the monitor is off, I can't talk to it, so I can't ask it what it can > >> do. Note that this is something of a lie, most monitors made since, oh, > >> 2000, will merely look like they're asleep but will still respond over > >> DDC if they have a power cord plugged in. > >> > >> But if I can't talk to it, I'll use what's in the config file. Do you > >> have an example of X not doing so? > > > > Yes... the most frustrating part of all. As I've been trying to > > communicate, xorg does _not_ use my xorg.conf when the monitor is off, > > and instead uses something on the scale of 800x600 which is so large, > > the necessary widgets are off screen. > > You need to provide more information including your hardware and xorg > configuration for others to reproduce and fix any issues. Might be > better in a bug report. > > Rahul I have already provided my Smolt UUID (a141fbad-6bc1-419a-a5e7-1c247d90184a), monitor band/model (ViewSonic PF790), and here is my xorg.conf, http://www.pembo13.com/pub/xorg.conf.watson.20070918 If there is any more information I can let me know, if not, I will elevate this to a bug report. Arthur Pemberton -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 17:19:20 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 18:19:20 +0100 Subject: Replacing the bittorrent client In-Reply-To: <1190134055.13077.10.camel@tuxhugs> References: <1190116566.13408.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1190123552.3802.5.camel@dawkins> <1190124253.13408.95.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1190134055.13077.10.camel@tuxhugs> Message-ID: <1190135960.10494.15.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 09:47 -0700, Peter Gordon wrote: > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 15:04 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > I found deluge heavier (it's written in Python) and the UI more > > contrived. Transmission's written in C, and has that GNOME/MacOS X (it's > > a very popular client on MacOS X) philosophy about keeping things > > simple, yet powerful. > > > > I don't doubt Deluge is nice, but it's far too complicated as a default > > client, IMO. > > As the Deluge maintainer in Fedora I'm going to agree rather > wholeheartedly with Bastien on this one. It (Deluge) is a really nice > client, but for a "Just click and watch it go" client, it is also a lot > more complex, in terms of UI. Transmission just feels a lot more > first-time-user-friendly in how its UI is structured and its preferences > dialog seems a lot more sane. Great to see reasonable people involved in the project :) Thanks Peter From ajackson at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 17:16:57 2007 From: ajackson at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:16:57 -0400 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <16de708d0709180925p28501ad8i806ec3b274f85a52@mail.gmail.com> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <1190036801.7686.145.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709171652of4e2482hd01872b909fa7835@mail.gmail.com> <1190122500.7686.227.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709180925p28501ad8i806ec3b274f85a52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1190135817.7686.244.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 11:25 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > On 9/18/07, Adam Jackson wrote: > > If the monitor is off, I can't talk to it, so I can't ask it what it can > > do. Note that this is something of a lie, most monitors made since, oh, > > 2000, will merely look like they're asleep but will still respond over > > DDC if they have a power cord plugged in. > > > > But if I can't talk to it, I'll use what's in the config file. Do you > > have an example of X not doing so? > > Yes... the most frustrating part of all. As I've been trying to > communicate, xorg does _not_ use my xorg.conf when the monitor is off, > and instead uses something on the scale of 800x600 which is so large, > the necessary widgets are off screen. Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear about this. If you could feed me an X log and config file from this failure condition, I might be able to figure out why it looks like we're ignoring your settings. The likely explanation is that your Monitor section is either missing, or doesn't contain any information about the sync ranges and etc. Which means it doesn't describe your monitor at all, so we have to assume something conservative like 800x600. If your favorite app doesn't fit in that size, then it's violating the Gnome HIG to begin with. It's generally not sensible to try to infer what monitor capabilities the user meant based on what modes they asked for. If I ask for 2048x1536 on a monitor that can't do it, I might be able to set up the card to scan out that timing, but the monitor's just not going to sync, and it's _much_ better to fail in a way that the user can see and interact with, than fail to black. - ajax From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Sep 18 17:41:22 2007 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:41:22 +0200 Subject: fuse (Was Re: early-gdm redux) In-Reply-To: <1190125739.4377.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190125739.4377.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46F00DC2.5090908@leemhuis.info> On 18.09.2007 16:28, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 10:35 +0200, Alexander Larsson wrote: >> On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 10:56 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >>> On 14.09.2007 10:17, Alexander Larsson wrote: >>>>> That's a fuse plugin correct? Uhm... fuse doesn't work out of the box >>>>> in Fedora currently. I _think_ we still ship fuse in such a way that >>>>> you have to manually take some action add users to the fuse group for >>>>> users that get to use fuse. >>>> Yes we do. And this is totally stupid and will cause pain in the future >>>> when all sorts of features (like gvfs) start using fuse. I have no idea >>>> why this was done, but it has to be fixed. >>> Thx for your kind words to your fellow Fedora developers, much >>> appreciated ;-) (?) >>> I decided that -- but not alone. In fact IIRC I was urged by lots of >>> high-rank-Fedora-developers (including jeremy and someone from the >>> security team IIRC) to *not* ship fuse as a suid-binary for everyone, as >>> back then (in the early days when fuse hit the kernel) it was highly >>> unclear if the fuse userspace tools were safe enough. >>> If that has changed: sure, let's get rid of this extra burden with >>> adding the user to a special group. But that's up to the current >>> maintainer. >> If its not safe then wouldn't a better solution be to fix it or not >> ship/install it. > Making sure that things are safe is definitely the right thing to do. > suid but only group executable is purely a "start to get it in while not > making things less secure by default" While at it maybe someone can explain something about fuse which I never understood: I got a new laptop three months ago. It came with Windows and thus a NTFS partition which I only made smaller, but did not remove -- /dev/sda3 to be precise: $ ls -l /dev/sda3 brw-r----- 1 root disk 8, 3 14. Sep 16:10 /dev/sda3 Okay, it's only read-writable for root and readable for "disk" -- a group which I'm not part of: $ groups thl fuse Thus I'm not even able to read from it: $ dd if=/dev/sda3 bs=512K count=1 | strings dd: opening `/dev/sda3': Permission denied Life sucks, but that's how things are supposed to be in linux/unix land as far as I know. But well, for fuse there seem to exist different rules: $ mkdir ntfs $ /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g /dev/sda3 ntfs/ $ touch ntfs/foo $ ls -l ntfs/foo -rwxrwxrwx 1 thl thl 0 18. Sep 19:27 ntfs/foo Which brings me to my questions: Can somebody please explain why the above it working? Does it mean that if I write my own malicious fuse.ext3 userspace driver that I can mount each and every block-device on my system and read or modify the files on it (all by using fuse)? What if there is a small error in mount.ntfs-3g somewhere -- could it be abused to destroy a partition on my system while being a ordinary user? Just wondering -- maybe I just don't understand the concept of fuse (maybe I'm getting to old for this...). Or maybe there is a bug somewhere in our packages and that above scenario works? Or a side-effect of our "add to fuse-group strategy? Cu knurd From pemboa at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 18:26:14 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:26:14 -0500 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <1190135817.7686.244.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <1190036801.7686.145.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709171652of4e2482hd01872b909fa7835@mail.gmail.com> <1190122500.7686.227.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709180925p28501ad8i806ec3b274f85a52@mail.gmail.com> <1190135817.7686.244.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <16de708d0709181126l40dbc1b9t8daaa87f641f2e4a@mail.gmail.com> On 9/18/07, Adam Jackson wrote: > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 11:25 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > On 9/18/07, Adam Jackson wrote: > > > If the monitor is off, I can't talk to it, so I can't ask it what it can > > > do. Note that this is something of a lie, most monitors made since, oh, > > > 2000, will merely look like they're asleep but will still respond over > > > DDC if they have a power cord plugged in. > > > > > > But if I can't talk to it, I'll use what's in the config file. Do you > > > have an example of X not doing so? > > > > Yes... the most frustrating part of all. As I've been trying to > > communicate, xorg does _not_ use my xorg.conf when the monitor is off, > > and instead uses something on the scale of 800x600 which is so large, > > the necessary widgets are off screen. > > Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear about this. If you could feed me an > X log and config file from this failure condition, I might be able to > figure out why it looks like we're ignoring your settings. I will get you the logs once I get back to the machine, my xorg.conf has already been provided. > The likely explanation is that your Monitor section is either missing, > or doesn't contain any information about the sync ranges and etc. Which > means it doesn't describe your monitor at all, so we have to assume > something conservative like 800x600. Am I required to manually put in my Monitor section? If so, then going down to 800x600 is the default behaviour. > If your favorite app doesn't fit > in that size, then it's violating the Gnome HIG to begin with. In this case, it is the login screen, KDM > It's generally not sensible to try to infer what monitor capabilities > the user meant based on what modes they asked for. If I ask for > 2048x1536 on a monitor that can't do it, I might be able to set up the > card to scan out that timing, but the monitor's just not going to sync, > and it's _much_ better to fail in a way that the user can see and > interact with, than fail to black. > > - ajax Well it seems like many of the current assumptions result in cases where the end result is "unfriendly", considering that my hardware setup isn't exotic, and my software (in terms of Xorg) is near vanilla. -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) From roguexz at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 20:47:08 2007 From: roguexz at gmail.com (Rogue) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 02:17:08 +0530 Subject: Nautilus default in spatial mode? In-Reply-To: <46EF6F3A.1040803@nicubunu.ro> References: <1190029953.11983.51.camel@pc-notebook> <46EEF242.20409@gmail.com> <46EF6F3A.1040803@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <46F0394C.7010200@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Nicu Buculei wrote: > Rogue wrote: >> >> I got my mom to use fedora, and now she enjoys the browser-mode better, >> /especially/ the bookmarks mode. > > Is any possibility she like the browser mode because she learned how to > use it from you? Possible. =D >> Given that Fedora does create a helpful directory structure, like >> Documents, Music, Pictures, etc.,[1], I think we should try and promote >> the browser mode. > > After this talk I looked a little at the browser mode: I tend to like it > the best with the sidebar and toolbar off, it looks much like spatial > but have inversed shortcuts and the useful location bar (instead of the > location drop-down). Shall try that out too. > >> Now, if people think that it is an extremely bad idea, then how about >> providing a simple wizard, which will provide options like: > > Like a second first boot screen? It would be a second boot screen after the first install, but for a new user account that is created, like say in a multi-user environment, it might make sense... don't you think? later, Rogue -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFG8DlMceS9IQvx51YRAifJAJ0aAPa7uSSVj1wW7paeG39/goSxiwCdGXWq QkGlj72fZzRcc0kdnd3GBLA= =qgtT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 18 20:55:19 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 02:25:19 +0530 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default Message-ID: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> Hi Has #subject been done in GNOME in rawhide? If not, is that still the plan for Fedora 8? Rahul From notting at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 21:02:45 2007 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:02:45 -0400 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > Has #subject been done in GNOME in rawhide? If not, is that still the plan > for Fedora 8? No artwork... yet. Bill From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 18 21:13:48 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 02:43:48 +0530 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <46F03F8C.7070305@fedoraproject.org> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: >> Has #subject been done in GNOME in rawhide? If not, is that still the plan >> for Fedora 8? > > No artwork... yet. Might be because it hasn't been enabled or the plan to enable it if artwork was present hasn't been communicated to the artwork team. Nicu did propose something at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2007-September/msg00011.html Rahul From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Sep 18 23:11:18 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 00:11:18 +0100 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 17:02 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > Has #subject been done in GNOME in rawhide? If not, is that still the plan > > for Fedora 8? > > No artwork... yet. I hope there's not any planned. Skins suck, they're so 1990's. From pemboa at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 04:48:03 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:48:03 -0500 Subject: Current Xorg behavior is unfriendly at best In-Reply-To: <1190135817.7686.244.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <16de708d0709142346r14f16e85o8093ef539834e615@mail.gmail.com> <1190036801.7686.145.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709171652of4e2482hd01872b909fa7835@mail.gmail.com> <1190122500.7686.227.camel@localhost.localdomain> <16de708d0709180925p28501ad8i806ec3b274f85a52@mail.gmail.com> <1190135817.7686.244.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <16de708d0709182148g29a20a78q94c05317e521e719@mail.gmail.com> On 9/18/07, Adam Jackson wrote: > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 11:25 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > Yes... the most frustrating part of all. As I've been trying to > > communicate, xorg does _not_ use my xorg.conf when the monitor is off, > > and instead uses something on the scale of 800x600 which is so large, > > the necessary widgets are off screen. > > Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear about this. If you could feed me an > X log and config file from this failure condition, I might be able to > figure out why it looks like we're ignoring your settings. Here is an appropriate log: http://www.pembo13.com/pub/Xorg.0.log -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com ) From alexl at redhat.com Wed Sep 19 07:09:48 2007 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:09:48 +0200 Subject: fuse (Was Re: early-gdm redux) In-Reply-To: <46F00DC2.5090908@leemhuis.info> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190125739.4377.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F00DC2.5090908@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1190185788.3904.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 19:41 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Thus I'm not even able to read from it: > > $ dd if=/dev/sda3 bs=512K count=1 | strings > dd: opening `/dev/sda3': Permission denied > > Life sucks, but that's how things are supposed to be in linux/unix land > as far as I know. But well, for fuse there seem to exist different rules: > > $ mkdir ntfs > $ /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g /dev/sda3 ntfs/ > $ touch ntfs/foo > $ ls -l ntfs/foo > -rwxrwxrwx 1 thl thl 0 18. Sep 19:27 ntfs/foo > > Which brings me to my questions: Can somebody please explain why the > above it working? Does it mean that if I write my own malicious > fuse.ext3 userspace driver that I can mount each and every block-device > on my system and read or modify the files on it (all by using fuse)? > What if there is a small error in mount.ntfs-3g somewhere -- could it be > abused to destroy a partition on my system while being a ordinary user? Thats quite weird. The way I undestand fuse is that you run the filesystem as your user, and then that filesystem (via libfuse) spawns fusermount to open the fuse device and attach to the mountpoint. fusermount then passes the fd to the fuse device back the the filesystem process (via a socket) which then handles all the requests. Reading the data source for the filesystem (if there is any) is only done by the filesystem process, not by the setuid fusermount helper, so it should not be able to read /dev/sda3. Is /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g setuid perhaps? Can you verify the uid/euid of the ntfs mount process? From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Sep 19 07:11:17 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:11:17 +0300 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <46F0CB95.6080201@nicubunu.ro> Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 17:02 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: >> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: >>> Has #subject been done in GNOME in rawhide? If not, is that still the plan >>> for Fedora 8? >> No artwork... yet. > > I hope there's not any planned. Skins suck, they're so 1990's. But if we have a themed non-default lock screen, it should use at least the current theme (just a PNG changed). -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From fedora at leemhuis.info Wed Sep 19 07:38:34 2007 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:38:34 +0200 Subject: fuse (Was Re: early-gdm redux) In-Reply-To: <1190185788.3904.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190125739.4377.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F00DC2.5090908@leemhuis.info> <1190185788.3904.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46F0D1FA.9020708@leemhuis.info> On 19.09.2007 09:09, Alexander Larsson wrote: > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 19:41 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> Thus I'm not even able to read from it: >> >> $ dd if=/dev/sda3 bs=512K count=1 | strings >> dd: opening `/dev/sda3': Permission denied >> >> Life sucks, but that's how things are supposed to be in linux/unix land >> as far as I know. But well, for fuse there seem to exist different rules: >> >> $ mkdir ntfs >> $ /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g /dev/sda3 ntfs/ >> $ touch ntfs/foo >> $ ls -l ntfs/foo >> -rwxrwxrwx 1 thl thl 0 18. Sep 19:27 ntfs/foo >> >> Which brings me to my questions: Can somebody please explain why the >> above it working? Does it mean that if I write my own malicious >> fuse.ext3 userspace driver that I can mount each and every block-device >> on my system and read or modify the files on it (all by using fuse)? >> What if there is a small error in mount.ntfs-3g somewhere -- could it be >> abused to destroy a partition on my system while being a ordinary user? > > Thats quite weird. [...] Agreed. But I got the impression that how some users expect it to work. > Is /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g setuid perhaps? Yes: $ ls -l /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g -rwsr-xr-- 1 root fuse 40528 26. Aug 16:50 /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g CU knurd From alexl at redhat.com Wed Sep 19 07:51:29 2007 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:51:29 +0200 Subject: fuse (Was Re: early-gdm redux) In-Reply-To: <46F0D1FA.9020708@leemhuis.info> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190125739.4377.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F00DC2.5090908@leemhuis.info> <1190185788.3904.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F0D1FA.9020708@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1190188289.3904.167.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 09:38 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > On 19.09.2007 09:09, Alexander Larsson wrote: > > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 19:41 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > >> Thus I'm not even able to read from it: > >> > >> $ dd if=/dev/sda3 bs=512K count=1 | strings > >> dd: opening `/dev/sda3': Permission denied > >> > >> Life sucks, but that's how things are supposed to be in linux/unix land > >> as far as I know. But well, for fuse there seem to exist different rules: > >> > >> $ mkdir ntfs > >> $ /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g /dev/sda3 ntfs/ > >> $ touch ntfs/foo > >> $ ls -l ntfs/foo > >> -rwxrwxrwx 1 thl thl 0 18. Sep 19:27 ntfs/foo > >> > >> Which brings me to my questions: Can somebody please explain why the > >> above it working? Does it mean that if I write my own malicious > >> fuse.ext3 userspace driver that I can mount each and every block-device > >> on my system and read or modify the files on it (all by using fuse)? > >> What if there is a small error in mount.ntfs-3g somewhere -- could it be > >> abused to destroy a partition on my system while being a ordinary user? > > > > Thats quite weird. [...] > > Agreed. But I got the impression that how some users expect it to work. > > > Is /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g setuid perhaps? > > Yes: > > $ ls -l /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g > -rwsr-xr-- 1 root fuse 40528 26. Aug 16:50 /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g Oh. That seems like a bad idea to me. If this drops privs after opening the device I think you can attach to the process using e.g. gdb and call any read() operation on the device. If might even mean (with some creative exploits) that any fuse group user can read any block on any disk. I think the "fuse" group thing is a bad idea for /sbin/fusermount, but for something like this it might make sense. Although its probably better to not have mount.ntfs-3g setuid and just force the user to be in the "disk" group, as that makes it more obvious what this is about. From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Sep 19 12:40:24 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 08:40:24 -0400 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <46F0CB95.6080201@nicubunu.ro> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <46F0CB95.6080201@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1190205624.4236.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 10:11 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 17:02 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > >> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > >>> Has #subject been done in GNOME in rawhide? If not, is that still the plan > >>> for Fedora 8? > >> No artwork... yet. > > > > I hope there's not any planned. Skins suck, they're so 1990's. > > But if we have a themed non-default lock screen, it should use at least > the current theme (just a PNG changed). > Sure, if you provide me with a suitable image and button colors, I'll swap it out. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Sep 19 13:00:42 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:00:42 +0300 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <1190205624.4236.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <46F0CB95.6080201@nicubunu.ro> <1190205624.4236.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46F11D7A.1000201@nicubunu.ro> Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 10:11 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: >> But if we have a themed non-default lock screen, it should use at least >> the current theme (just a PNG changed). >> > > Sure, if you provide me with a suitable image and button colors, I'll > swap it out. The normal version: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/dialog/lock_dialog_infinity.tar.gz - the background is the PNG and the colors are defined inside .gtkrc (I only modified the color values there) - the .glade file is optional: I edited it to add the user face The large version, with "leave message" button: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/dialog/lock_dialog_infinity_large.tar.gz - too many buttons, the dialog is excessively wide; - the background was adapted to fit the width. There is one thing I do not understand: I put the files in the right location on my F7 box and the "Log Out" button is not shown. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Sep 19 13:39:35 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:39:35 -0400 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <46F11D7A.1000201@nicubunu.ro> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <46F0CB95.6080201@nicubunu.ro> <1190205624.4236.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F11D7A.1000201@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1190209175.4236.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 16:00 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 10:11 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > >> But if we have a themed non-default lock screen, it should use at least > >> the current theme (just a PNG changed). > >> > > > > Sure, if you provide me with a suitable image and button colors, I'll > > swap it out. > > The normal version: > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/dialog/lock_dialog_infinity.tar.gz > - the background is the PNG and the colors are defined inside .gtkrc (I > only modified the color values there) > - the .glade file is optional: I edited it to add the user face > > The large version, with "leave message" button: > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/dialog/lock_dialog_infinity_large.tar.gz > - too many buttons, the dialog is excessively wide; > - the background was adapted to fit the width. Thanks, I'll have a look at these at some point. > There is one thing I do not understand: I put the files in the right > location on my F7 box and the "Log Out" button is not shown. The log out button only appears after a timeout. This is configurable in gconf. From martin at gamesplace.info Wed Sep 19 14:12:56 2007 From: martin at gamesplace.info (Martin =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgens?=) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:12:56 +0200 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <46F11D7A.1000201@nicubunu.ro> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <46F0CB95.6080201@nicubunu.ro> <1190205624.4236.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F11D7A.1000201@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1190211176.6552.4.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> Hi! Maybe the button "Cancel" should be removed as the dialog appears automatically. Also, the "Unlock" button could be placed right behind the password field which suggests that there is some connection between the password and the unlock action. Honestly, I find that the unlock dialog looks pretty boring. Maybe we can discuss how to improve its look here, also. Martin Am Mittwoch, den 19.09.2007, 16:00 +0300 schrieb Nicu Buculei: > Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 10:11 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > >> But if we have a themed non-default lock screen, it should use at least > >> the current theme (just a PNG changed). > >> > > > > Sure, if you provide me with a suitable image and button colors, I'll > > swap it out. > > The normal version: > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/dialog/lock_dialog_infinity.tar.gz > - the background is the PNG and the colors are defined inside .gtkrc (I > only modified the color values there) > - the .glade file is optional: I edited it to add the user face > > The large version, with "leave message" button: > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/dialog/lock_dialog_infinity_large.tar.gz > - too many buttons, the dialog is excessively wide; > - the background was adapted to fit the width. > > There is one thing I do not understand: I put the files in the right > location on my F7 box and the "Log Out" button is not shown. > > -- > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com > Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ > Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org > my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From mccann at jhu.edu Wed Sep 19 14:30:36 2007 From: mccann at jhu.edu (William Jon McCann) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:30:36 -0400 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <1190211176.6552.4.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <46F0CB95.6080201@nicubunu.ro> <1190205624.4236.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F11D7A.1000201@nicubunu.ro> <1190211176.6552.4.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> Message-ID: <939dd5750709190730g28c19b1r308d79470146da3c@mail.gmail.com> Hey, On 9/19/07, Martin J?rgens wrote: > Maybe the button "Cancel" should be removed as the dialog appears > automatically. > > Also, the "Unlock" button could be placed right behind the password > field which suggests that there is some connection between the password > and the unlock action. > > Honestly, I find that the unlock dialog looks pretty boring. Maybe we > can discuss how to improve its look here, also. I'm pretty sure that upstream agrees that there are too many buttons in a row. ;) You can try modifying the /usr/share/gnome-screensaver/lock-dialog-default.glade file using glade-2. If you come up with something nice, post the glade and a screenshot here or on screensaver-list at gnome.org. Thanks, Jon From notting at redhat.com Wed Sep 19 14:41:52 2007 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:41:52 -0400 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <1190209175.4236.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <46F0CB95.6080201@nicubunu.ro> <1190205624.4236.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F11D7A.1000201@nicubunu.ro> <1190209175.4236.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20070919144152.GC3669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) said: > > The normal version: > > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/dialog/lock_dialog_infinity.tar.gz > > - the background is the PNG and the colors are defined inside .gtkrc (I > > only modified the color values there) > > - the .glade file is optional: I edited it to add the user face > > > > The large version, with "leave message" button: > > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/dialog/lock_dialog_infinity_large.tar.gz > > - too many buttons, the dialog is excessively wide; > > - the background was adapted to fit the width. > > Thanks, I'll have a look at these at some point. Hm, if this is not branded, it would imply it could be moved from fedora-logos to gnome-screensaver. Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Sep 19 15:00:26 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:00:26 -0400 Subject: Desktop SIG meeting Message-ID: <1190214026.4236.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Just a quick reminder that we are meeting again today, 18:00-19:00 UTC (2pm-3pm EDT). Possible things to talk about include the pre-test3 state, current breakages, and maybe some outlook on what plans we have beyond F8. Matthias From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Sep 19 16:29:49 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 12:29:49 -0400 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <1190209175.4236.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <46F0CB95.6080201@nicubunu.ro> <1190205624.4236.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F11D7A.1000201@nicubunu.ro> <1190209175.4236.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1190219389.4236.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 09:39 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Thanks, I'll have a look at these at some point. > This will appear in fedora-logos-7.92.2. I only had to make one minor change to the way the keyboard indicator was packaged. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Sep 19 17:51:07 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:21:07 +0530 Subject: KDE 4 plans Message-ID: <46F1618B.2020400@fedoraproject.org> Hi Just for comparisons http://news.opensuse.org/?p=219 https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuFeistyKde4Plan Does the KDE SIG plan on a KDE 4 experimental live image? Rahul From ml at deadbabylon.de Wed Sep 19 18:01:18 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:01:18 +0200 Subject: KDE 4 plans In-Reply-To: <46F1618B.2020400@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F1618B.2020400@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <200709192001.22843.ml@deadbabylon.de> Am Mi 19.September 2007 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > Hi > > Just for comparisons > > http://news.opensuse.org/?p=219 > https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuFeistyKde4Plan > > Does the KDE SIG plan on a KDE 4 experimental live image? When the KDE4 parts are in rawhide I will start working on a live image. But atm the packages are without the runtime part and only the libraries (except dolphin). Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Sep 19 18:02:22 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:32:22 +0530 Subject: KDE 4 plans In-Reply-To: <200709192001.22843.ml@deadbabylon.de> References: <46F1618B.2020400@fedoraproject.org> <200709192001.22843.ml@deadbabylon.de> Message-ID: <46F1642E.1080306@fedoraproject.org> Sebastian Vahl wrote: > Am Mi 19.September 2007 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: >> Hi >> >> Just for comparisons >> >> http://news.opensuse.org/?p=219 >> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuFeistyKde4Plan >> >> Does the KDE SIG plan on a KDE 4 experimental live image? > > When the KDE4 parts are in rawhide I will start working on a live image. But > atm the packages are without the runtime part and only the libraries (except > dolphin). A live cd with just the libraries might gather only limited interest for development purposes. What's the plan for the runtime? Rahul From ml at deadbabylon.de Wed Sep 19 20:01:47 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:01:47 +0200 Subject: KDE 4 plans In-Reply-To: <46F1642E.1080306@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F1618B.2020400@fedoraproject.org> <200709192001.22843.ml@deadbabylon.de> <46F1642E.1080306@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <200709192201.54826.ml@deadbabylon.de> Am Mi 19.September 2007 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > Sebastian Vahl wrote: > > Am Mi 19.September 2007 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > >> Hi > >> > >> Just for comparisons > >> > >> http://news.opensuse.org/?p=219 > >> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuFeistyKde4Plan > >> > >> Does the KDE SIG plan on a KDE 4 experimental live image? > > > > When the KDE4 parts are in rawhide I will start working on a live image. > > But atm the packages are without the runtime part and only the libraries > > (except dolphin). > > A live cd with just the libraries might gather only limited interest for > development purposes. What's the plan for the runtime? > > Rahul Sorry, I meant kde-workspace (so you get a working KDE4.) There are some things that conflicts with KDE3 and could not be included before Fedora 8 is released. But having a live image with at least a few bits of KDE4 may get more people to help us. Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fedora at leemhuis.info Thu Sep 20 17:37:08 2007 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 19:37:08 +0200 Subject: fuse (Was Re: early-gdm redux) In-Reply-To: <1190188289.3904.167.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190125739.4377.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F00DC2.5090908@leemhuis.info> <1190185788.3904.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F0D1FA.9020708@leemhuis.info> <1190188289.3904.167.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46F2AFC4.1090405@leemhuis.info> On 19.09.2007 09:51, Alexander Larsson wrote: > On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 09:38 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> On 19.09.2007 09:09, Alexander Larsson wrote: >>> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 19:41 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >>>> Thus I'm not even able to read from it: >>>> $ dd if=/dev/sda3 bs=512K count=1 | strings >>>> dd: opening `/dev/sda3': Permission denied >>>> Life sucks, but that's how things are supposed to be in linux/unix land >>>> as far as I know. But well, for fuse there seem to exist different rules: >>>> $ mkdir ntfs >>>> $ /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g /dev/sda3 ntfs/ >>>> $ touch ntfs/foo >>>> $ ls -l ntfs/foo >>>> -rwxrwxrwx 1 thl thl 0 18. Sep 19:27 ntfs/foo >>>> Which brings me to my questions: Can somebody please explain why the >>>> above it working? Does it mean that if I write my own malicious >>>> fuse.ext3 userspace driver that I can mount each and every block-device >>>> on my system and read or modify the files on it (all by using fuse)? >>>> What if there is a small error in mount.ntfs-3g somewhere -- could it be >>>> abused to destroy a partition on my system while being a ordinary user? >>> Thats quite weird. [...] >> Agreed. But I got the impression that how some users expect it to work. >>> Is /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g setuid perhaps? >> Yes: >> $ ls -l /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g >> -rwsr-xr-- 1 root fuse 40528 26. Aug 16:50 /sbin/mount.ntfs-3g > Oh. That seems like a bad idea to me. +1 I tried to discuss the issue with spot (the ntfs-3g maintainer) in #fedora-devel but he was busy and he asked me to file a bug, which I just did: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=298651 Cu knurd From davidz at redhat.com Thu Sep 20 18:38:46 2007 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:38:46 -0400 Subject: fuse (Was Re: early-gdm redux) In-Reply-To: <46F00DC2.5090908@leemhuis.info> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <1189757840.3331.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46EA4CAF.9000906@leemhuis.info> <1190104544.3904.105.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190125739.4377.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F00DC2.5090908@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1190313526.23579.2.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 19:41 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > I got a new laptop three months ago. It came with Windows and thus a > NTFS partition which I only made smaller, but did not remove -- > /dev/sda3 to be precise: > > $ ls -l /dev/sda3 > brw-r----- 1 root disk 8, 3 14. Sep 16:10 /dev/sda3 FWIW, just doing $ gnome-mount -d /dev/sda3 or double-clicking the appropriate icon it in Nautilus is how it works in Fedora 8. You may need to go through a one-time-pain dialog to enter either your own or the root password. [...] > Which brings me to my questions: Can somebody please explain why the > above it working? Does it mean that if I write my own malicious > fuse.ext3 userspace driver that I can mount each and every block-device > on my system and read or modify the files on it (all by using fuse)? Probably. Someone better fix fuse to not allow this. David From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Sep 21 03:24:57 2007 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 04:24:57 +0100 Subject: [Long] Do we need a font SIG ? In-Reply-To: <46F337B2.9000104@redhat.com> References: <6148.192.54.193.51.1189770715.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <46F337B2.9000104@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1190345097.7976.33.camel@shuttle> ???? 20-09-2007, ????? ???, ??? ??? 23:17 -0400, ?/? M?ir?n Duffy ??????: > Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > I created a mockup wiki page to try to make all this clear > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NicolasMailhot/FontMatrix > > It's far from complete, but I hope it's complete enough to give > > everyone an idea of the potential SIG scope. > > > > So, who wants to play? Is Fedora ready for a font SIG or should I ask > > again next year? > > I'm in! Let's not let this thread die! Who else is in? I'm definitely in. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From che666 at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 09:37:14 2007 From: che666 at gmail.com (Rudolf Kastl) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 11:37:14 +0200 Subject: enable themed lock screen by default In-Reply-To: <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <46F03B37.30905@fedoraproject.org> <20070918210245.GA14855@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1190157078.10494.22.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: 2007/9/19, Bastien Nocera : > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 17:02 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > > Has #subject been done in GNOME in rawhide? If not, is that still the plan > > > for Fedora 8? > > > > No artwork... yet. > > I hope there's not any planned. Skins suck, they're so 1990's. i am all for procedural textures since ages ;) > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From davej at redhat.com Fri Sep 21 14:23:02 2007 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:23:02 -0400 Subject: early-gdm redux ( I am sorry my way is better faster... for a desktop ) In-Reply-To: <20070914030137.GA20307@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910709131904k27f566c7g86275e12b284f762@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131925o117d57edn15cddcc503f1ca92@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910709131935u5c268bf6sf473de9743584b45@mail.gmail.com> <20070914030137.GA20307@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20070921142302.GA8127@redhat.com> On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 11:01:38PM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > That's because it's a crap infrastructure. :) > > Seriously, acpi modules should be autoloaded based on DMI and ACPI > table matching (almost done), and the governors should probably be > built-in (as userspace is generally wrong.) The problem arises with older (and some crappy recent) hardware. We can't always just use on-demand. Which is why in some cases we still use the userspace daemon. (VIA CPUs are notoriously bad with ondemand up until their latest generation). Dave -- http://www.codemonkey.org.uk From mclasen at redhat.com Sat Sep 22 02:17:34 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 22:17:34 -0400 Subject: current desktop spin Message-ID: <1190427455.5089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hey Jeremy, looking at a livecd spun today, I notice a number of issues: 1) rhgb is installed and on the kernel cmdline, but does not come up 2) didn't we decide to put nss-mdns on the livecd ? 3) my iso ended up at 726M, something must have grown considerably in the last few days From katzj at redhat.com Mon Sep 24 00:08:19 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:08:19 -0400 Subject: current desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1190427455.5089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1190427455.5089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1190592499.4603.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 22:17 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > looking at a livecd spun today, I notice a number of issues: > > 1) rhgb is installed and on the kernel cmdline, but does not come up How were you booting? The cirrus driver as used by qemu and kvm doesn't get along with rhgb, but on real hardware, it seems to work fine for me. There's a bug floating around about it but fixing it was likely to break real Cirrus hardware iirc > 2) didn't we decide to put nss-mdns on the livecd ? Got me ;) Easy enough to add if we want > 3) my iso ended up at 726M, something must have grown considerably in > the last few days The ones I kicked off yesterday afternoon after seeing your mail look fine size-wise, hovering at around 693M. Not that I've tried booting them or doing anything more with them Jeremy From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Sep 24 00:35:26 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 02:35:26 +0200 Subject: current desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1190592499.4603.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1190427455.5089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190592499.4603.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1190594126.13280.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2007-09-23 at 20:08 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 22:17 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > looking at a livecd spun today, I notice a number of issues: > > > > 1) rhgb is installed and on the kernel cmdline, but does not come up > > How were you booting? The cirrus driver as used by qemu and kvm doesn't > get along with rhgb, but on real hardware, it seems to work fine for me. > There's a bug floating around about it but fixing it was likely to break > real Cirrus hardware iirc qemu-kvm, indeed. > > 2) didn't we decide to put nss-mdns on the livecd ? > > Got me ;) Easy enough to add if we want I think we wanted to do it. Of course, it will be more useful if avahi stop crashing at boot... From katzj at redhat.com Mon Sep 24 01:04:02 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 21:04:02 -0400 Subject: current desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1190594126.13280.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1190427455.5089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190592499.4603.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190594126.13280.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1190595842.4603.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2007-09-24 at 02:35 +0200, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Sun, 2007-09-23 at 20:08 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 22:17 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > 2) didn't we decide to put nss-mdns on the livecd ? > > > > Got me ;) Easy enough to add if we want > > I think we wanted to do it. Of course, it will be more useful if avahi > stop crashing at boot... I'll add it. Also, for the moment, I'll add the workaround you found in #279301 so that it can work :) Jeremy From tjb at unh.edu Mon Sep 24 13:54:37 2007 From: tjb at unh.edu (Thomas J. Baker) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:54:37 -0400 Subject: panel launchers In-Reply-To: <1189102786.23373.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1189102786.23373.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1190642077.5680.3.camel@raptor.sr.unh.edu> On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 14:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > I have built my preferred-apps-panel-launcher code into rawhide now. > Let me know if you see any problems with it. > > Matthias > How are these launchers accessed? On an existing account, can one be added to a panel? Or are they only for newly created accounts? Thanks, tjb -- ======================================================================= | Thomas Baker email: tjb at unh.edu | | Systems Programmer | | Research Computing Center voice: (603) 862-4490 | | University of New Hampshire fax: (603) 862-1761 | | 332 Morse Hall | | Durham, NH 03824 USA http://wintermute.sr.unh.edu/~tjb | ======================================================================= From walters at redhat.com Mon Sep 24 14:03:49 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:03:49 -0400 Subject: panel launchers In-Reply-To: <1190642077.5680.3.camel@raptor.sr.unh.edu> References: <1189102786.23373.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190642077.5680.3.camel@raptor.sr.unh.edu> Message-ID: On 9/24/07, Thomas J. Baker wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 14:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > I have built my preferred-apps-panel-launcher code into rawhide now. > > Let me know if you see any problems with it. > > > > Matthias > > > > How are these launchers accessed? On an existing account, can one be > added to a panel? Or are they only for newly created accounts? > On a related note, one tool that would be nice to have is a "desktop reset" control that you can run when you upgrade between Fedora/GNOME releases to see the new upstream changes. Basically just save the /apps/panel, desktop background GConf keys, reset them to the default, then have an "undo" to switch back. Possibly pop it up automatically when /etc/fedora-release changes from the last one it saw? From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Sep 24 14:03:29 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:03:29 -0400 Subject: panel launchers In-Reply-To: <1190642077.5680.3.camel@raptor.sr.unh.edu> References: <1189102786.23373.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190642077.5680.3.camel@raptor.sr.unh.edu> Message-ID: <1190642609.4218.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2007-09-24 at 09:54 -0400, Thomas J. Baker wrote: > On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 14:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > I have built my preferred-apps-panel-launcher code into rawhide now. > > Let me know if you see any problems with it. > > > > Matthias > > > > How are these launchers accessed? On an existing account, can one be > added to a panel? Or are they only for newly created accounts? We have converted the mail and web launchers in the default configuration to this. If you want to create them manually, open the "add custom launcher" dialog, open the file chooser, navigate to ~/.local/share/applications, select preferred-mail-reader.desktop, and save the launcher. From dwinship at redhat.com Mon Sep 24 14:21:04 2007 From: dwinship at redhat.com (Dan Winship) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:21:04 -0400 Subject: panel launchers In-Reply-To: References: <1189102786.23373.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1190642077.5680.3.camel@raptor.sr.unh.edu> Message-ID: <46F7C7D0.60307@redhat.com> Colin Walters wrote: > On 9/24/07, Thomas J. Baker wrote: >> How are these launchers accessed? On an existing account, can one be >> added to a panel? Or are they only for newly created accounts? > > On a related note, one tool that would be nice to have is a "desktop > reset" control that you can run when you upgrade between Fedora/GNOME > releases to see the new upstream changes. Basically just save the > /apps/panel, desktop background GConf keys, reset them to the default, > then have an "undo" to switch back. Possibly pop it up automatically > when /etc/fedora-release changes from the last one it saw? "gnome-reset" in GNOME svn is sort of like this. -- Dan From besfahbo at redhat.com Mon Sep 24 18:59:35 2007 From: besfahbo at redhat.com (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:59:35 -0400 Subject: [Long] Do we need a font SIG ? In-Reply-To: <46F337B2.9000104@redhat.com> References: <6148.192.54.193.51.1189770715.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <46F337B2.9000104@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1190660375.5055.1.camel@behdad.behdad.org> On Thu, 2007-09-20 at 23:17 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > I created a mockup wiki page to try to make all this clear > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NicolasMailhot/FontMatrix > > It's far from complete, but I hope it's complete enough to give > > everyone an idea of the potential SIG scope. > > > > So, who wants to play? Is Fedora ready for a font SIG or should I ask > > again next year? > > I'm in! Let's not let this thread die! Who else is in? /me too. > ~m -- behdad http://behdad.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ml at deadbabylon.de Wed Sep 26 13:52:59 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:52:59 +0200 Subject: Status of compiz(-fusion) for KDE Message-ID: <20070926155259.327e438e@htpc> What's the actual plan for the kde side of compiz? I was asked some time ago to replace beryl with compiz(-fusion) on the KDE-LiveCD. ATM compiz is lacking a configuration tool (former beryl-settings) and also maybe a switcher for kwin <-> compiz (Kevin Kofler is investigating these atm). And there are also some (maybe dumb) questions: - Will compiz(-fusion) obsolete beryl in the future? - Is there a equivalent to beryl-manager that may be usuable for switching kwin<->compiz (like beryl-manager does for beryl)? Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From krh at bitplanet.net Wed Sep 26 15:29:03 2007 From: krh at bitplanet.net (=?UTF-8?Q?Kristian_H=C3=B8gsberg?=) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:29:03 -0400 Subject: Status of compiz(-fusion) for KDE In-Reply-To: <20070926155259.327e438e@htpc> References: <20070926155259.327e438e@htpc> Message-ID: <59ad55d30709260829p6cf09307hd02b6fa91165e9d3@mail.gmail.com> On 9/26/07, Sebastian Vahl wrote: > What's the actual plan for the kde side of compiz? I was asked some > time ago to replace beryl with compiz(-fusion) on the KDE-LiveCD. ATM > compiz is lacking a configuration tool (former beryl-settings) and > also maybe a switcher for kwin <-> compiz (Kevin Kofler is investigating > these atm). We now have a compiz-kde pacakge that has the kde-window-decorator and the GNOME specific bits are split into compiz-gnome. As for configuration tools, I'm thinking that they can be packaged up as separate RPMs and people can pick the tool they prefer. > And there are also some (maybe dumb) questions: > - Will compiz(-fusion) obsolete beryl in the future? I'm not planning to make the compiz rpm obsolete the beryl rpm, but upstream, the two projects have merged and I don't expect the fedora beryl rpms to see much activitiy. > - Is there a equivalent to beryl-manager that may be usuable for > switching kwin<->compiz (like beryl-manager does for beryl)? I don't know, there may be, if there is something usable out there we can add it to the compiz-kde package or the appropriate parts of the KDE packages. cheers, Kristian From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Sep 26 15:43:46 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:13:46 +0530 Subject: Status of compiz(-fusion) for KDE In-Reply-To: <59ad55d30709260829p6cf09307hd02b6fa91165e9d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070926155259.327e438e@htpc> <59ad55d30709260829p6cf09307hd02b6fa91165e9d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46FA7E32.70303@fedoraproject.org> Kristian H?gsberg wrote: > > I'm not planning to make the compiz rpm obsolete the beryl rpm, but > upstream, the two projects have merged and I don't expect the fedora > beryl rpms to see much activitiy. Is there a reason not to obsolete beryl? Rahul From drago01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 16:12:25 2007 From: drago01 at gmail.com (dragoran) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:12:25 +0200 Subject: Status of compiz(-fusion) for KDE In-Reply-To: <46FA7E32.70303@fedoraproject.org> References: <20070926155259.327e438e@htpc> <59ad55d30709260829p6cf09307hd02b6fa91165e9d3@mail.gmail.com> <46FA7E32.70303@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46FA84E9.1030607@gmail.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Kristian H?gsberg wrote: > >> >> I'm not planning to make the compiz rpm obsolete the beryl rpm, but >> upstream, the two projects have merged and I don't expect the fedora >> beryl rpms to see much activitiy. > > Is there a reason not to obsolete beryl? because they do not conflict with eachother so there is no reason to do it (beryl uses %{_libdir}/berly for its plugins and also use berly as binary etc. so there are no file conflicts) ... you can install beryl and use beryl-manager sto switch between beryl, compiz(-fusion), kwin and metacity. From ml at deadbabylon.de Wed Sep 26 16:35:01 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:35:01 +0200 Subject: Status of compiz(-fusion) for KDE In-Reply-To: <59ad55d30709260829p6cf09307hd02b6fa91165e9d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070926155259.327e438e@htpc> <59ad55d30709260829p6cf09307hd02b6fa91165e9d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070926183501.42bb6771@htpc> Am Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:29:03 -0400 schrieb "Kristian H?gsberg" : > On 9/26/07, Sebastian Vahl wrote: > > What's the actual plan for the kde side of compiz? I was asked some > > time ago to replace beryl with compiz(-fusion) on the KDE-LiveCD. > > ATM compiz is lacking a configuration tool (former beryl-settings) > > and also maybe a switcher for kwin <-> compiz (Kevin Kofler is > > investigating these atm). > > We now have a compiz-kde pacakge that has the kde-window-decorator and > the GNOME specific bits are split into compiz-gnome. As for > configuration tools, I'm thinking that they can be packaged up as > separate RPMs and people can pick the tool they prefer. Putting the configuration tools in separate packages would be the best - at least for the size of the livecds. But compiz itself seems only to work when started with gconf as plugin (which is in compiz-gnome). A simple: compiz --replace & kde-window-decorator --replace & seems not to work. I may be wrong in that, because it was only a quick test today. If I find some time I will investigate this and open a bug. > > And there are also some (maybe dumb) questions: > > - Will compiz(-fusion) obsolete beryl in the future? > > I'm not planning to make the compiz rpm obsolete the beryl rpm, but > upstream, the two projects have merged and I don't expect the fedora > beryl rpms to see much activitiy. Good to know. Thanks. So sticking to beryl on the KDE-LiveCD is the only option I have atm. > > - Is there a equivalent to beryl-manager that may be usuable for > > switching kwin<->compiz (like beryl-manager does for beryl)? > > I don't know, there may be, if there is something usable out there we > can add it to the compiz-kde package or the appropriate parts of the > KDE packages. There seems to be a backend being developed at: http://gitweb.opencompositing.org/?p=fusion/compizconfig/compizconfig-backend-kconfig;a=summary But (again) I haven't tested this (yet) and cannot say if it's usuable. There's also existing an inofficial repo containing these configuration tools: http://wiki.kagesenshi.org/moin.fcgi/CategoryPackages/CompizFusion Maybe he is willing to package them directly in Fedora. Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drago01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 16:49:28 2007 From: drago01 at gmail.com (dragoran) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:49:28 +0200 Subject: Status of compiz(-fusion) for KDE In-Reply-To: <20070926183501.42bb6771@htpc> References: <20070926155259.327e438e@htpc> <59ad55d30709260829p6cf09307hd02b6fa91165e9d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070926183501.42bb6771@htpc> Message-ID: <46FA8D98.9070409@gmail.com> Sebastian Vahl wrote: > Am Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:29:03 -0400 > schrieb "Kristian H?gsberg" : > > >> On 9/26/07, Sebastian Vahl wrote: >> >>> What's the actual plan for the kde side of compiz? I was asked some >>> time ago to replace beryl with compiz(-fusion) on the KDE-LiveCD. >>> ATM compiz is lacking a configuration tool (former beryl-settings) >>> and also maybe a switcher for kwin <-> compiz (Kevin Kofler is >>> investigating these atm). >>> >> We now have a compiz-kde pacakge that has the kde-window-decorator and >> the GNOME specific bits are split into compiz-gnome. As for >> configuration tools, I'm thinking that they can be packaged up as >> separate RPMs and people can pick the tool they prefer. >> > > Putting the configuration tools in separate packages would be the best - > at least for the size of the livecds. But compiz itself seems only to > work when started with gconf as plugin (which is in compiz-gnome). A > simple: > compiz --replace & > kde-window-decorator --replace & > seems not to work. I may be wrong in that, because it was only a quick > test today. If I find some time I will investigate this and open a bug. > > you have to pass a configuration backend to compiz compiz --replace ini & should work. the kconfig backend is not in the stable (0.6) branch yet. so it will be in compiz 0.8 when it gets released which is too late for F8. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Sep 26 17:16:10 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 22:46:10 +0530 Subject: Status of compiz(-fusion) for KDE In-Reply-To: <46FA84E9.1030607@gmail.com> References: <20070926155259.327e438e@htpc> <59ad55d30709260829p6cf09307hd02b6fa91165e9d3@mail.gmail.com> <46FA7E32.70303@fedoraproject.org> <46FA84E9.1030607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46FA93DA.5050701@fedoraproject.org> dragoran wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Kristian H?gsberg wrote: >> >>> >>> I'm not planning to make the compiz rpm obsolete the beryl rpm, but >>> upstream, the two projects have merged and I don't expect the fedora >>> beryl rpms to see much activitiy. >> >> Is there a reason not to obsolete beryl? > because they do not conflict with eachother so there is no reason to do > it (beryl uses %{_libdir}/berly for its plugins and also use berly as > binary etc. so there are no file conflicts) ... you can install beryl > and use beryl-manager sto switch between beryl, compiz(-fusion), kwin > and metacity. They don't have to conflict with each other. Beryl upstream has renamed and morphed into Compiz Fusion. Isn't that a good reason? Rahul From ml at deadbabylon.de Wed Sep 26 18:55:21 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:55:21 +0200 Subject: Status of compiz(-fusion) for KDE In-Reply-To: <46FA8D98.9070409@gmail.com> References: <20070926155259.327e438e@htpc> <59ad55d30709260829p6cf09307hd02b6fa91165e9d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070926183501.42bb6771@htpc> <46FA8D98.9070409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070926205521.3120a274@htpc> Am Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:49:28 +0200 schrieb dragoran : > Sebastian Vahl wrote: > > Am Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:29:03 -0400 > > schrieb "Kristian H?gsberg" : > > > > > >> On 9/26/07, Sebastian Vahl wrote: > >> > >>> What's the actual plan for the kde side of compiz? I was asked > >>> some time ago to replace beryl with compiz(-fusion) on the > >>> KDE-LiveCD. ATM compiz is lacking a configuration tool (former > >>> beryl-settings) and also maybe a switcher for kwin <-> compiz > >>> (Kevin Kofler is investigating these atm). > >>> > >> We now have a compiz-kde pacakge that has the kde-window-decorator > >> and the GNOME specific bits are split into compiz-gnome. As for > >> configuration tools, I'm thinking that they can be packaged up as > >> separate RPMs and people can pick the tool they prefer. > >> > > > > Putting the configuration tools in separate packages would be the > > best - at least for the size of the livecds. But compiz itself > > seems only to work when started with gconf as plugin (which is in > > compiz-gnome). A simple: > > compiz --replace & > > kde-window-decorator --replace & > > seems not to work. I may be wrong in that, because it was only a > > quick test today. If I find some time I will investigate this and > > open a bug. > > > > > you have to pass a configuration backend to compiz > compiz --replace ini & should work. Thanks, that was it. It's still not really working but this shouldn't become a support thread. :) > the kconfig backend is not in the stable (0.6) branch yet. > so it will be in compiz 0.8 when it gets released which is too late > for F8. Thanks for explanation. Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: