From rmy at tigress.co.uk Tue Jan 1 11:48:23 2008 From: rmy at tigress.co.uk (Ron Yorston) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 11:48:23 +0000 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302035t17025962jbf22580d02290fc5@mail.gmail.com> <1199077306.17788.106.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <200801011148.m01BmNSt016943@tiffany.internal.tigress.co.uk> David Zeuthen wrote: >I'd like to think that if you have a dedicated partition that you >actually go through the trouble of mounting at a non-standard mount >point, then it's because you have data on it that you want to access. If >you want to access the data, then you should get an icon on the desktop. That's a non sequitur. Our standard kickstart installation sets up a /data partition. It's used to hold Oracle database and seismic data files, neither of which can sensibly be accessed through an icon on the desktop. The fact that /data is a separate partition is irrelevant to our customers. It shouldn't appear on the desktop. Ron From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Jan 1 13:12:03 2008 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 08:12:03 -0500 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <200801011148.m01BmNSt016943@tiffany.internal.tigress.co.uk> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302035t17025962jbf22580d02290fc5@mail.gmail.com> <1199077306.17788.106.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <200801011148.m01BmNSt016943@tiffany.internal.tigress.co.uk> Message-ID: <20080101081203.53f2cf6a@j2solutions.net> On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 11:48:23 +0000 Ron Yorston wrote: > That's a non sequitur. Our standard kickstart installation sets up > a /data partition. It's used to hold Oracle database and seismic > data files, neither of which can sensibly be accessed through an icon > on the desktop. > > The fact that /data is a separate partition is irrelevant to our > customers. It shouldn't appear on the desktop. I think people are getting hung up on "separate partition" when really it's more of 'nonstandard mount point'. Had you mounted it in /srv/ or /usr/local/ or somewhere in /var it likely wouldn't show up on the desktop. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (jkeating.livejournal.com) Fedora Project (fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From davidz at redhat.com Tue Jan 1 21:29:57 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:29:57 -0500 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <200801011148.m01BmNSt016943@tiffany.internal.tigress.co.uk> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302035t17025962jbf22580d02290fc5@mail.gmail.com> <1199077306.17788.106.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <200801011148.m01BmNSt016943@tiffany.internal.tigress.co.uk> Message-ID: <1199222997.28052.56.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2008-01-01 at 11:48 +0000, Ron Yorston wrote: > David Zeuthen wrote: > >I'd like to think that if you have a dedicated partition that you > >actually go through the trouble of mounting at a non-standard mount > >point, then it's because you have data on it that you want to access. If > >you want to access the data, then you should get an icon on the desktop. > > That's a non sequitur. Our standard kickstart installation sets up a /data > partition. It's used to hold Oracle database and seismic data files, > neither of which can sensibly be accessed through an icon on the desktop. > > The fact that /data is a separate partition is irrelevant to our customers. > It shouldn't appear on the desktop. That's a non sequitur. Our standard kickstart installation sets up a /data partition. It's used to hold customer documents and references, both of which can sensibly be accessed through an icon on the desktop. The fact that /data is a separate partition is irrelevant to our customers. It should appear on the desktop. David From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Jan 1 21:48:05 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:48:05 -0500 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <1199222997.28052.56.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302035t17025962jbf22580d02290fc5@mail.gmail.com> <1199077306.17788.106.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <200801011148.m01BmNSt016943@tiffany.internal.tigress.co.uk> <1199222997.28052.56.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199224085.18094.15.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2008-01-01 at 16:29 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Tue, 2008-01-01 at 11:48 +0000, Ron Yorston wrote: > > David Zeuthen wrote: > > >I'd like to think that if you have a dedicated partition that you > > >actually go through the trouble of mounting at a non-standard mount > > >point, then it's because you have data on it that you want to access. If > > >you want to access the data, then you should get an icon on the desktop. > > > > That's a non sequitur. Our standard kickstart installation sets up a /data > > partition. It's used to hold Oracle database and seismic data files, > > neither of which can sensibly be accessed through an icon on the desktop. > > > > The fact that /data is a separate partition is irrelevant to our customers. > > It shouldn't appear on the desktop. > > That's a non sequitur. Our standard kickstart installation sets up > a /data partition. It's used to hold customer documents and references, > both of which can sensibly be accessed through an icon on the desktop. > > The fact that /data is a separate partition is irrelevant to our > customers. It should appear on the desktop. who is the 'we' in this statement? -sv From davidz at redhat.com Tue Jan 1 22:04:19 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:04:19 -0500 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <1199224085.18094.15.camel@cutter> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302035t17025962jbf22580d02290fc5@mail.gmail.com> <1199077306.17788.106.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <200801011148.m01BmNSt016943@tiffany.internal.tigress.co.uk> <1199222997.28052.56.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199224085.18094.15.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1199225059.28052.62.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2008-01-01 at 16:48 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > who is the 'we' in this statement? A persona. David From dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org Tue Jan 1 16:58:08 2008 From: dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org (Douglas McClendon) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 10:58:08 -0600 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <477A7120.4030508@filteredperception.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, > I have Fedora 8 and on the gnome desktop I see some icons from my > partitions that I don't wan't on my gnome desktop. Happy New Years, and thanks for providing me a golden opening for a truly unimportant rant- Personally in response to your issue, I remind you of what you probably already know- There is absolutely no reason you NEED to have a *&@#!!! file manager as your desktop. Just gconf nautilus away from your desktop, and then open nautilus/places from your main menu, or a panel launcher when you need to. (IMO) What a stupid microsoftism (or whoever they copied from copied it from ism) to be chasing. Sure it's all a nice and sexy advertisement of linux handling removable storage in a not completely sucky way (anybody remember supermount?). But once we get to the point of removable storage handling working in a robust stable unchanging way for a while, the novelty and joy of getting instant feedback that the mechanism actually worked, will wear off. You can still have that annoying stupid 'import photos' dialog pop up which can be a gateway to opening the file manager to that volume. What else is the desktop-as-filemanager useful for? A cache of icon-'desktop'-entries that the user likes? That would be much better served if modifying the main menu were as easy as it already is to drag an entry from there to the panel. Anyway, Happy Holidays folks, you may now resume your long thread, which I appreciate solely for the reminder of the fstab comment entry, which I'm surprised jkatz didn't overtly point out to me yet, if he was reading this thread (as it relates to my desire to have some clean mechanism to protect a filesystem which is a subcomponent of the rootfs from being unmounted before the rootfs). Cheers, -dmc > I don't have a problem with having my storage partition on my desktop > but I also have also 4 other linux distos on my laptop and I see all > of their system partitions on my desktop! > > I know that there is a way to disable ALL partition shortcuts but then > I wouldn't see my usb drives on desktop when I plug in usb flash > drives and I don't want that. > > So how do I remove only the shortcuts I don't want from my desktop? > > I saw an Ubuntu (which obviously also uses Gnome) trick which doesn't > work on fedora > On ubuntu only drives that are in /media are shown on the gnome desktop. > I edited /etc/fstab so that partitions I don't want on desktop are > mounted in /mnt - that worked on my Ubuntu but it didn't work in > Fedora > > And ideas? > > Thank you > From rmy at tigress.co.uk Wed Jan 2 10:01:47 2008 From: rmy at tigress.co.uk (Ron Yorston) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:01:47 +0000 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <20080101081203.53f2cf6a@j2solutions.net> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302035t17025962jbf22580d02290fc5@mail.gmail.com> <1199077306.17788.106.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <200801011148.m01BmNSt016943@tiffany.internal.tigress.co.uk> <20080101081203.53f2cf6a@j2solutions.net> Message-ID: <200801021001.m02A1lE0017317@tiffany.internal.tigress.co.uk> Jesse Keating wrote: >I think people are getting hung up on "separate partition" when really >it's more of 'nonstandard mount point'. Had you mounted it in /srv/ >or /usr/local/ or somewhere in /var it likely wouldn't show up on the >desktop. As currently implemented mounts _in_ those places do appear on the desktop. A mount _on_ /srv wouldn't. There's a hardcoded list of special mount points in gnome-vfs2 that are excluded from appearing on the desktop. But what's special about that list? It's derived from the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard, but the FHS isn't the last word on mount points. It isn't even primarily about mount points. There are some things in the list that are commonly used as mount points (/usr) and some that aren't (/lib). And a hardcoded list is fragile. There's already a Fedora patch to gnome-vfs2 to add some mount points that got left out upstream. I think having a list of specially blessed mount points is bad design. For my purposes I've ripped out the list and replaced it with code that prevents anything in /etc/fstab from appearing on the desktop (patch is in Bugzilla #384201). But that might not suit everyone. Ron From walters at redhat.com Wed Jan 2 15:52:17 2008 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:52:17 -0500 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <477A7120.4030508@filteredperception.org> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <477A7120.4030508@filteredperception.org> Message-ID: <1199289137.22306.27.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> On Tue, 2008-01-01 at 10:58 -0600, Douglas McClendon wrote: > Personally in response to your issue, I remind you of what you probably > already know- There is absolutely no reason you NEED to have a *&@#!!! > file manager as your desktop. Just gconf nautilus away from your > desktop, and then open nautilus/places from your main menu, or a panel > launcher when you need to. Amen. Hopefully some day we'll be able to escape the "desktop" metaphor with something more useful; nemo-like or OLPC journal-like. From alexl at redhat.com Thu Jan 3 10:40:12 2008 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:40:12 +0100 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199356812.13611.7.camel@dhcp-208-188.arn.redhat.com> On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 23:14 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Fri, 2007-12-28 at 11:03 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I don't have a problem with having my storage partition on my desktop > > but I also have also 4 other linux distos on my laptop and I see all > > of their system partitions on my desktop! > > > > I know that there is a way to disable ALL partition shortcuts but then > > I wouldn't see my usb drives on desktop when I plug in usb flash > > drives and I don't want that. > > > > So how do I remove only the shortcuts I don't want from my desktop? > > If this is the biggest problem we have in Fedora, I think we're doing > pretty good. Anyway, I there are two solutions > > 1. Add yet another gconf key to /apps/nautilus/desktop > > 2. Tell such users to use comment=hidden in /etc/fstab entries for > such drives and make gvfs honor this so a mount point is hidden > if it matches such an /etc/fstab entry. > > Since this affects only the kind of people who have > 1 Linux distro > installed (for dual- or tripple-booting with Windows and Mac OS X you > actually want this. IMO ditto for dual booting with other Linux > installations but apparently others don't think so), I think we should > go for 2. Alex? Kinda 2. But I don't think having it in fstab is good enought. Not all mounts have fstab entries, and you might still want to do things like hidden (and other markups like "notrash" or "nopreview"). So, I think we should modify the mount tools and the kernel to handle a mount option like "udata" which is just passed out verbatime to userspace in /proc/mounts. You can then mount stuff with -o udata=nodisplay,notrash and have the userspace handle those options. They can be set both in fstab and when automatically mounting things with gnome-mount or manually mounting stuff. I've seen people wanting this for other stuff too. From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 01:10:14 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:10:14 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt Message-ID: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Hi, After investigating (please read the full report including links to desktop-devel-list) https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=427316 I realized what an incredibly poor state session service management is in and what kind of hoops upstream authors jump through because neither X11, nor xdg or GNOME has provided them with useful infrastructure. It looks like KDE has _some_ kind of infrastructure for this. There are basically two problems that we've been ignoring and hacking around for as long as I've used Linux on the desktop 1. There is no good way of starting session services that needs to export environment variables. While one may rightfully argue this is utter crack in most cases, things like seahorse-agent demonstrates that this is sometimes needed. Also, you surely need to do this for the session message bus. 2. I think we've all experienced this one or more times; you log out of your session and log back in. Wow, now things are weird or maybe doesn't even work. The reason for this is that processes from your old session keeps hanging around. In fact, I was bitten by this just before the holidays; I simply couldn't login. Why? An old gconfd process was lingering and that blocked login. The solution? Log in as root on VT1 and do the usual 'killall -9 -u davidz' dance. The latter problem is, I think, on the level of being a security bug. The former is just hindering process and is making people build on top of our platform (speaking in upstream sense here) do really crackful things like rewriting your .gnupg/gpg.conf file. I think with a little work we could fix this on the X11 level and potentially get this upstream too. First, in Fedora we actually got a rather decent way of solving 1.; see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=427316#c15 for the solution. Unfortunately, this a) isn't upstream; and b) isn't as perfect as it needs to be. If you follow the flow, basically this happens /usr/bin/xinit sources /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc sources /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc-common ? sources /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/*.sh sets up SSH_AGENT, DBUS_LAUNCH, CK_XINIT_SESSION does some weird stuff, then evals three variables above and, essentially, execs gnome-session or startkde Observations a. Ideally ?SSH_AGENT, DBUS_LAUNCH, CK_XINIT_SESSION would just use ?/etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/. I'm told this is to make sure things are reaped (because of problem 2. above) b. It's annoying that the session bus is started after the stuff in ?/etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/ - no session bus for you. c. No way to run code once the session is over. Proposal Assuming problem 2. will be magically solved for us (see below), we could nicely rearrange the flow such that ?SSH_AGENT, DBUS_LAUNCH, CK_XINIT_SESSION could just use standard constructs in ??/etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/. Another observation is that only stuff using environment variables should use ?/etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/ (some man page should spell this out) - everything else should use the XDG autostart spec (where we have UI, e.g. gnome-session-properties). Also, since we're talking about environment variables, we surely need to care about the ordering; e.g. we want 00-ck-xinit-session.sh 01-dbus-session-bus.sh 10-ssh-agent.sh 10-seahorse-agent.sh and so forth. Again, the man page should be clear about this. Also, there should be a README file in ?/etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/ that points to the man page. Instead of exec'ing gnome-session, we run it in the background. When we are done we run the same scripts in reverse just with 'stop' instead of 'start' as the first positional parameter. Notably, 00-ck-xinit-session.sh will take care of problem 2. The way it does this is because of the way that ConsoleKit works. It basically will just kill all the processes where the uid and the environment variable XDG_SESSION_COOKIE matches. First it tries SIGTERM. Then after a few seconds, it moves on to SIGKILL (e.g. -9). (of course, any process can unset XDG_SESSION_COOKIE and then fork and that way linger on. But no sane process would do that unless it's hostile.) All of this only includes modifying xorg-x11-xinit. We surely should get this upstream. ?The benefits? - Things like seahorse-agent, ssh-agent and so forth now has proper infrastructure to use. If we make the docs good enough we can point people to these and hopefully people won't do horrendous things like e.g. rewriting .gnupg/gpg.conf. - We solve the decade-long problem of lingering processes after logout. I think this is a pretty small project that could be done in a few days, maybe a week. Any takers? Thoughts? Am I on crack? David From hp at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 01:39:23 2008 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:39:23 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <477D8E4B.6090308@redhat.com> Hi, David Zeuthen wrote: > 2. I think we've all experienced this one or more times; you log out > of your session and log back in. Wow, now things are weird or maybe > doesn't even work. The reason for this is that processes from your > old session keeps hanging around. In fact, I was bitten by this just > before the holidays; I simply couldn't login. Why? An old gconfd > process was lingering and that blocked login. The solution? Log in > as root on VT1 and do the usual 'killall -9 -u davidz' dance. This may be obvious, but the "correct" solution is supposed to be that apps should connect to either the X server or the session message bus and they should exit when the X server or message bus does. (Both Xlib and libdbus exit on disconnect by default for this reason.) Other solutions are pretty much hacks, I mean, they may be worthwhile and pragmatic hacks, but, nonetheless. Apps should be exiting with the session already or they are buggy. One alternate approach might be to write a little babysitter/proxy app (just like the way dbus-launch ties the session bus to the X server). The babysitter app would connect to the session bus, then exec its args as a child process, and kill the child process when it lost the connection. Of course, this involves modifying any code that launches a session service so it launches it with the babysitter, so perhaps not ideal. > Notably, 00-ck-xinit-session.sh will take care of problem 2. The way it > does this is because of the way that ConsoleKit works. It basically will > just kill all the processes where the uid and the environment variable > XDG_SESSION_COOKIE matches. First it tries SIGTERM. Then after a few > seconds, it moves on to SIGKILL (e.g. -9). I would think this should only be done after the session bus is gone and apps have had a chance to cleanly exit, and maybe some kind of warning should be logged like "crappy app xyz had to be killed" There is a race, where a correct app that was on its way to exiting on its own gets killed because it was too slow... but in practice I doubt that would happen too much. Havoc From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 01:53:01 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:53:01 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <477D8E4B.6090308@redhat.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <477D8E4B.6090308@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1199411581.7935.41.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 20:39 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > This may be obvious, but the "correct" solution is supposed to be that > apps should connect to either the X server or the session message bus > and they should exit when the X server or message bus does. (Both Xlib > and libdbus exit on disconnect by default for this reason.) Of course... > Other solutions are pretty much hacks, I mean, they may be worthwhile > and pragmatic hacks, but, nonetheless. Apps should be exiting with the > session already or they are buggy. ... but people write all sorts of weird apps, they have religious reasons for not wanting deps.. that, and as soon as you require people to add code to their app then everything falls apart. > I would think this should only be done after the session bus is gone and > apps have had a chance to cleanly exit, and maybe some kind of warning > should be logged like "crappy app xyz had to be killed" Certainly. The proposed ordering would guarantee this (00 < 01). I'm a big fan of logging this to syslog too. David From dwinship at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 14:48:41 2008 From: dwinship at redhat.com (Dan Winship) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:48:41 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <477E4749.80500@redhat.com> David Zeuthen wrote: > Also, since we're talking about environment variables, we surely need to > care about the ordering; e.g. we want > > 00-ck-xinit-session.sh > 01-dbus-session-bus.sh > 10-ssh-agent.sh > 10-seahorse-agent.sh > > and so forth. That still doesn't work though; dbus-daemon won't have access to $SSH_AGENT or $GPG_AGENT_INFO, and so therefore neither will any applications that it launches. (We already have this problem with $SESSION_MANAGER.) The only real solution is "don't use environment variables for long-term IPC". Eg, libgnomekeyring used to use an environment variable to find gnome-keyring-daemon, which ended up meaning that dbus-launched apps couldn't access gnome-keyring, but now it's been fixed to use dbus instead. But yeah, we're not going to get gpg and ssh to use dbus, I know. The "new-gnome-session" branch in SVN (which Lucas Rocha is hacking on, but it looks like won't make it in time for 2.22?) has a dbus interface (org.gnome.SessionManager.Setenv) that lets apps that start very early in the startup process hand environment variables back up to the session manager so that apps started after them will see those vars. If dbus-daemon itself also supported something like this, that would help solve the ordering issues somewhat (though still not entirely). -- Dan From rstrode at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 14:56:03 2008 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:56:03 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <477E4749.80500@redhat.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <477E4749.80500@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080104095603.160d5c5a@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> Hi, > > Also, since we're talking about environment variables, we surely > > need to care about the ordering; e.g. we want > > > > 00-ck-xinit-session.sh > > 01-dbus-session-bus.sh > > 10-ssh-agent.sh > > 10-seahorse-agent.sh > > > > and so forth. > > That still doesn't work though; dbus-daemon won't have access to > $SSH_AGENT or $GPG_AGENT_INFO, and so therefore neither will any > applications that it launches. (We already have this problem with > $SESSION_MANAGER.) > Those scripts get sourced before dbus daemon is launched. --Ray From rstrode at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 15:05:28 2008 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:05:28 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <20080104100528.30fae2f9@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> Hi, > Assuming problem 2. will be magically solved for us (see below), we > could nicely rearrange the flow such that ?SSH_AGENT, DBUS_LAUNCH, > CK_XINIT_SESSION could just use standard constructs > in ??/etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/. I actually have that written on my whiteboard as a TODO when I get time. > Another observation is that only stuff using environment variables > should use ?/etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/ (some man page should spell this > out) - everything else should use the XDG autostart spec (where we > have UI, e.g. gnome-session-properties). > > Also, since we're talking about environment variables, we surely need > to care about the ordering; e.g. we want > > 00-ck-xinit-session.sh > 01-dbus-session-bus.sh > 10-ssh-agent.sh > 10-seahorse-agent.sh > > and so forth. Again, the man page should be clear about this. Also, > there should be a README file in ?/etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/ that > points to the man page. > > Instead of exec'ing gnome-session, we run it in the background. When > we are done we run the same scripts in reverse just with 'stop' > instead of 'start' as the first positional parameter. Starting to seem a lot like initscripts... Anyway, definitely could be improvement here, but I don't think we should promote this directory too much. We really want apps using the session bus instead of their own socket protocol and an environment variable to advertise where it is. Really this directory is an escape hatch for programs that don't leverage our platform. > I think this is a pretty small project that could be done in a few > days, maybe a week. Much bigger, more important fish to fry right now. --Ray From nphilipp at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 15:14:55 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:14:55 +0100 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Hi, On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 20:10 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > Notably, 00-ck-xinit-session.sh will take care of problem 2. The way it > does this is because of the way that ConsoleKit works. It basically will > just kill all the processes where the uid and the environment variable > XDG_SESSION_COOKIE matches. First it tries SIGTERM. Then after a few > seconds, it moves on to SIGKILL (e.g. -9). > > (of course, any process can unset XDG_SESSION_COOKIE and then fork and > that way linger on. But no sane process would do that unless it's > hostile.) Not in the least, there are programs which are supposed to stay running even when you log out -- screen, vncserver, nohup'ed processes etc. Mind that non-desktop oriented projects might not be that inclined to work around the "desktop strangeness du jour" (background processes being killed when logging out would count as such). On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 20:39 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > This may be obvious, but the "correct" solution is supposed to be that > apps should connect to either the X server or the session message bus > and they should exit when the X server or message bus does. (Both Xlib > and libdbus exit on disconnect by default for this reason.) This would solve the problem above more cleanly. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 15:22:11 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:22:11 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 16:14 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 20:39 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > This may be obvious, but the "correct" solution is supposed to be that > > apps should connect to either the X server or the session message bus > > and they should exit when the X server or message bus does. (Both Xlib > > and libdbus exit on disconnect by default for this reason.) > > This would solve the problem above more cleanly. Except that a decade of evidence shows us this is not the case.... but I guess you'd rather want the status quo, with all the security issues and perceived instability, rather than a working and secure system... (But then again, this is the typical story of the Linux desktop; we can't ever change or fix a thing because people who use the desktop in rather strange (dare I even say perverse?) ways (e.g. expecting processes to keep running) will start complaining as soon as we change something that will break their highly-customized setups and habits. Do not pass start. Do not collect $100. Instead let the naysayers and status quo win.) David From walters at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:10:28 2008 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:10:28 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1199463028.6858.9.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 16:14 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > Not in the least, there are programs which are supposed to stay running > even when you log out -- screen, vncserver, nohup'ed processes etc. No one is talking about changing the semantics of "nohup". What we're talking about it is that it is actually hard to write apps to exit with the session when that's what is the desired behavior. From dwinship at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:10:42 2008 From: dwinship at redhat.com (Dan Winship) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:10:42 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <20080104095603.160d5c5a@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <477E4749.80500@redhat.com> <20080104095603.160d5c5a@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <477E5A82.50705@redhat.com> Ray Strode wrote: > Hi, >>> Also, since we're talking about environment variables, we surely >>> need to care about the ordering; e.g. we want >>> >>> 00-ck-xinit-session.sh >>> 01-dbus-session-bus.sh >>> 10-ssh-agent.sh >>> 10-seahorse-agent.sh >>> >>> and so forth. >> That still doesn't work though; dbus-daemon won't have access to >> $SSH_AGENT or $GPG_AGENT_INFO, and so therefore neither will any >> applications that it launches. (We already have this problem with >> $SESSION_MANAGER.) >> > Those scripts get sourced before dbus daemon is launched. *currently*. But that's exactly what David is talking about changing. (Note the ordering above.) -- Dan From nphilipp at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:19:00 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 17:19:00 +0100 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:22 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 16:14 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 20:39 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > > This may be obvious, but the "correct" solution is supposed to be that > > > apps should connect to either the X server or the session message bus > > > and they should exit when the X server or message bus does. (Both Xlib > > > and libdbus exit on disconnect by default for this reason.) > > > > This would solve the problem above more cleanly. > > Except that a decade of evidence shows us this is not the case.... but I > guess you'd rather want the status quo, with all the security issues and > perceived instability, rather than a working and secure system... Show me why your proposal (which you admitted can be circumvented easily) is better or more secure than fixing the handful of programs that don't end themselves when the session exits. If we don't talk about hostile processes which actively circumvent, we're talking about dumb processes. These should be fixed rather than declaring stuff which up to now worked correctly as erroneous just to avoid doing the fixing. Where is the difficulty in letting these handful of processes either connect to dbus, X11 or the session manager and bail out if the connection dies? I'm curious. > (But then again, this is the typical story of the Linux desktop; we > can't ever change or fix a thing because people who use the desktop in > rather strange (dare I even say perverse?) ways (e.g. expecting > processes to keep running) will start complaining as soon as we change > something that will break their highly-customized setups and habits. Do > not pass start. Do not collect $100. Instead let the naysayers and > status quo win.) David, you need to accept that there are people who use computers differently than you think they should. This doesn't make them second class users. Only because an approach is different from what exists already, that doesn't make it better. I like to think that much can be achieved without hurting existing users. If that makes me a naysayer, it makes you a yeasayer which is almost equally bad ;-). Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From nphilipp at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:23:31 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 17:23:31 +0100 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199463028.6858.9.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199463028.6858.9.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1199463811.10633.51.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:10 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 16:14 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > > Not in the least, there are programs which are supposed to stay running > > even when you log out -- screen, vncserver, nohup'ed processes etc. > > No one is talking about changing the semantics of "nohup". Perhaps I'm a bit slow, but how would it not do this if it relies on the inheritance of a previously non-existent environment variable that needs to be deleted if a process shall not be killed on session exit? > What we're talking about it is that it is actually hard to write apps to > exit with the session when that's what is the desired behavior. I still don't understand why this would be the case. I assume what Havoc wrote is true, i.e. stuff that uses xlib or dbus is already covered. How is it difficult to let the remaining handful of processes die when the session exits? We could even let these few register themselves with gnome-session (or whatever else is applicable) so it could explicitly kill them on session exit, couldn't we? Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:29:57 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:29:57 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 17:19 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > Show me why your proposal (which you admitted can be circumvented > easily) is better or more secure than fixing the handful of programs > that don't end themselves when the session exits. If we don't talk about > hostile processes which actively circumvent, we're talking about dumb > processes. These should be fixed rather than declaring stuff which up to > now worked correctly as erroneous just to avoid doing the fixing. Where > is the difficulty in letting these handful of processes either connect > to dbus, X11 or the session manager and bail out if the connection dies? > I'm curious. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's a lot easier to just fix the few programs such as screen and nohup to opt out of getting reaped.. rather than going through every potential program in the distro (or on the planet) that people may launch in their session. There's an analogy here: Maintaining a whitelist is a lot easier than maintaining a blacklist. > David, you need to accept that there are people who use computers > differently than you think they should. This doesn't make them second > class users. Only because an approach is different from what exists > already, that doesn't make it better. I like to think that much can be > achieved without hurting existing users. If that makes me a naysayer, it > makes you a yeasayer which is almost equally bad ;-). Nils, it's very evident you are in the annoying "oh, but it's worked this way forever so we can't change it" camp. You need to accept that some of us are not and your camp is sometimes perceived as hindering progress. The indisputable fact is that X11 session service management is just *broken* as I outlined in my original mail. The fact that some people take advantage of this brokenness via screen, nohup etc. doesn't mean we shouldn't fix the fundamental problem. Doesn't mean either we shouldn't fix the few oddball cases such as screen and nohup to opt out of getting reaped. David From walters at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:35:34 2008 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:35:34 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199463811.10633.51.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199463028.6858.9.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199463811.10633.51.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1199464534.6858.16.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 17:23 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:10 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 16:14 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > > > > Not in the least, there are programs which are supposed to stay running > > > even when you log out -- screen, vncserver, nohup'ed processes etc. > > > > No one is talking about changing the semantics of "nohup". > > Perhaps I'm a bit slow, but how would it not do this if it relies on the > inheritance of a previously non-existent environment variable that needs > to be deleted if a process shall not be killed on session exit? Oh I see, I was wrong; yes David was talking about automatically killing all processes. That is wrong, I agree with you. As Havoc said, having them connect to X11 or DBus, or using a babysitter that does is the right way. From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:36:24 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:36:24 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199463811.10633.51.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199463028.6858.9.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199463811.10633.51.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1199464584.3080.31.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 17:23 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:10 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 16:14 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > > > > Not in the least, there are programs which are supposed to stay running > > > even when you log out -- screen, vncserver, nohup'ed processes etc. > > > > No one is talking about changing the semantics of "nohup". > > Perhaps I'm a bit slow, but how would it not do this if it relies on the > inheritance of a previously non-existent environment variable that needs > to be deleted if a process shall not be killed on session exit? The way someone would opt out would be to do this unsetenv("XDG_SESSION_COOKIE"); if (fork() <= 0) exit (1); very early in the program. David From walters at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:37:30 2008 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:37:30 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199464650.6858.18.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:29 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > Maybe it's just me, but I think it's a lot easier to just fix the few > programs such as screen and nohup to opt out of getting reaped.. Unix has had a pretty standard definition of "session" using SIGHUP. The way programs have historically "opted out" of termination is to ignore that signal. I don't think we should change that. Rather, some programs should be fixed to gain a dep on X11, DBus, or be run through the babysitter. From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:37:30 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:37:30 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199464534.6858.16.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199463028.6858.9.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199463811.10633.51.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464534.6858.16.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1199464650.3080.33.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:35 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > Oh I see, I was wrong; yes David was talking about automatically killing > all processes. That is wrong, I agree with you. Care to explain why this is wrong? > As Havoc said, having them connect to X11 or DBus, or using a babysitter > that does is the right way. So in order to avoid having a process linger we now need to patch it? Good luck with that.... David From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:40:05 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:40:05 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199464650.6858.18.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199464650.6858.18.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1199464805.3080.36.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:37 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:29 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > Maybe it's just me, but I think it's a lot easier to just fix the few > > programs such as screen and nohup to opt out of getting reaped.. > > Unix has had a pretty standard definition of "session" using SIGHUP. > The way programs have historically "opted out" of termination is to > ignore that signal. > > I don't think we should change that. Fine so we send a SIGHUP instead of SIGTERM, then SIGKILL. Makes this a lot easier..... > Rather, some programs should be fixed to gain a dep on X11, DBus, or be > run through the babysitter. Why do you think it's a good idea to add libX11 or libdbus deps to a program that don't use either? Do you think random upstream projects would ever take such patches? David From dcbw at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:46:48 2008 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:46:48 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199464534.6858.16.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199463028.6858.9.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199463811.10633.51.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464534.6858.16.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1199465208.19371.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:35 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 17:23 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:10 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 16:14 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > > > > > > Not in the least, there are programs which are supposed to stay running > > > > even when you log out -- screen, vncserver, nohup'ed processes etc. > > > > > > No one is talking about changing the semantics of "nohup". > > > > Perhaps I'm a bit slow, but how would it not do this if it relies on the > > inheritance of a previously non-existent environment variable that needs > > to be deleted if a process shall not be killed on session exit? > > Oh I see, I was wrong; yes David was talking about automatically killing > all processes. That is wrong, I agree with you. > > As Havoc said, having them connect to X11 or DBus, or using a babysitter > that does is the right way. One problem here is that too many apps set exit-on-disconnect false with D-Bus to work around bugs in the stupid app where the app gets kicked off the bus for doing something bad. dan From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 16:51:28 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:51:28 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199465208.19371.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199463028.6858.9.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199463811.10633.51.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464534.6858.16.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199465208.19371.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1199465488.3080.40.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:46 -0500, Dan Williams wrote: > One problem here is that too many apps set exit-on-disconnect false with > D-Bus to work around bugs in the stupid app where the app gets kicked > off the bus for doing something bad. That is a per-connection property and only apps connecting to the system bus does this. The app would presumably have a libx11 or session bus connection and that would force to exit(). Otherwise we reap it with SIGHUP. (Btw, even though HUP means "Hang Up Now", many programs abuse this signal to mean "reload config" or "reexec yourself" or whatever the want. But I guess we can fix that small proportion of programs.) David From walters at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 17:01:41 2008 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:01:41 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199464650.3080.33.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199463028.6858.9.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199463811.10633.51.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464534.6858.16.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199464650.3080.33.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199466101.6858.28.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:37 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:35 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > Oh I see, I was wrong; yes David was talking about automatically killing > > all processes. That is wrong, I agree with you. > > Care to explain why this is wrong? See my other mail. > > As Havoc said, having them connect to X11 or DBus, or using a babysitter > > that does is the right way. > > So in order to avoid having a process linger we now need to patch it? > Good luck with that.... Don't need luck in the original case you were talking about, just an editor and commit access to the upstream =) Here's a patch for GConf: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gconf-dbus-exit-with-session.patch Type: text/x-patch Size: 1700 bytes Desc: not available URL: From walters at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 17:04:38 2008 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:04:38 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199464805.3080.36.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199464650.6858.18.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199464805.3080.36.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199466278.6858.31.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:40 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:37 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:29 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > > > Maybe it's just me, but I think it's a lot easier to just fix the few > > > programs such as screen and nohup to opt out of getting reaped.. > > > > Unix has had a pretty standard definition of "session" using SIGHUP. > > The way programs have historically "opted out" of termination is to > > ignore that signal. > > > > I don't think we should change that. > > Fine so we send a SIGHUP instead of SIGTERM, then SIGKILL. Makes this a > lot easier..... Sending SIGHUP to all processes manually is fine; in theory actually the kernel will do this for you when the process session group leader exits. Now, whether something is correctly set as the process group leader in the twisted desktop login stack is an open question. A regression here would mostly be masked by the fact that *almost* everything run from the desktop does connect to X11. > > Rather, some programs should be fixed to gain a dep on X11, DBus, or be > > run through the babysitter. > > Why do you think it's a good idea to add libX11 or libdbus deps to a > program that don't use either? Do you think random upstream projects > would ever take such patches? The babysitter is another option. But I think (generally speaking) most projects nowadays *should* gain a dbus dep, and if we can explain clearly to them why it it useful, they would accept it. From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 17:05:34 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:05:34 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199466101.6858.28.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199463028.6858.9.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199463811.10633.51.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464534.6858.16.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199464650.3080.33.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199466101.6858.28.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1199466334.3080.47.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:01 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > Don't need luck in the original case you were talking about, just an > editor and commit access to the upstream =) > > Here's a patch for GConf: Might work for GConf; not going to work for the rest of the software on the planet. See, if even upstream GNOME can't get this right.. then how do you imagine the rest of the free-software eco-system getting it right? Not to mention all the apps people run for which you will never see the source... David From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 17:12:55 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:12:55 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199466278.6858.31.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199464650.6858.18.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199464805.3080.36.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199466278.6858.31.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1199466775.3080.55.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:04 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > Sending SIGHUP to all processes manually is fine; in theory actually the > kernel will do this for you when the process session group leader exits. > Now, whether something is correctly set as the process group leader in > the twisted desktop login stack is an open question. A regression here > would mostly be masked by the fact that *almost* everything run from the > desktop does connect to X11. Lots of programs (including GNOME ones) daemonizes e.g. creates their own process group etc. etc. so clearly we can't rely on this. That's why we need to iterate over the process list and send SIGHUP to processes matching the uid and XDG_SESSION_COOKIE (or other attribute but XDG_SESSION_COOKIE is what we have right now). It's not really rocket science. > > > Rather, some programs should be fixed to gain a dep on X11, DBus, or be > > > run through the babysitter. > > > > Why do you think it's a good idea to add libX11 or libdbus deps to a > > program that don't use either? Do you think random upstream projects > > would ever take such patches? > > The babysitter is another option. You are being vague here; I think you just use that term because Havoc said something ?vague about a babysitter execing stuff. The way I read this (it's vague so I'm guessing) sounds like it needs source code modification and if it isn't clear I don't think that's an option. > But I think (generally speaking) most > projects nowadays *should* gain a dbus dep, and if we can explain > clearly to them why it it useful, they would accept it. I think that is what they call wishful thinking. Seriously. David From mzerqung at 0pointer.de Fri Jan 4 17:26:47 2008 From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 18:26:47 +0100 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <20080104172647.GA17211@tango.0pointer.de> On Thu, 03.01.08 20:10, David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) wrote: > > Hi, > > After investigating (please read the full report including links to > desktop-devel-list) > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=427316 > > I realized what an incredibly poor state session service management is > in and what kind of hoops upstream authors jump through because neither > X11, nor xdg or GNOME has provided them with useful infrastructure. It > looks like KDE has _some_ kind of infrastructure for this. > > There are basically two problems that we've been ignoring and hacking > around for as long as I've used Linux on the desktop [...] I still believe the proper way to fix this is have some kind of babysitter daemon that shares most of its code with the init system. The problems for system startup and service management and for session startup and service management are mostly the same. Both sides would benefit if system and session startup/management would be handled by the same powerful system. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering Red Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 17:32:34 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:32:34 -0900 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <604aa7910801040932j76674514hd7709d74c54b39d3@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 4, 2008 6:22 AM, David Zeuthen wrote: > Do not pass start. Do not collect $100. Has the value of the US dollar de-valued so much that we only get 100 in funny colored (what I assumed is Canadian) dollars for passing go now? -jef"Back in my day..we got $200..and we liked it"spaleta From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 17:34:52 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:34:52 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <20080104172647.GA17211@tango.0pointer.de> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <20080104172647.GA17211@tango.0pointer.de> Message-ID: <1199468092.3080.58.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 18:26 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote: > I still believe the proper way to fix this is have some kind of > babysitter daemon that shares most of its code with the init > system. The problems for system startup and service management and for > session startup and service management are mostly the same. Both sides > would benefit if system and session startup/management would be > handled by the same powerful system. Indeed, but until that pie-in-the-blue-sky thing is available I think it's worthwhile to make this tiny enhancement (it would have been quicker to JFDI than entertaining a whole thread about it). David From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Jan 4 17:35:57 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:35:57 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801040932j76674514hd7709d74c54b39d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910801040932j76674514hd7709d74c54b39d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1199468157.14961.17.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 08:32 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Jan 4, 2008 6:22 AM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > Do not pass start. Do not collect $100. > > Has the value of the US dollar de-valued so much that we only get 100 > in funny colored (what I assumed is Canadian) dollars for passing go > now? > Well, and evidently it's been renamed to 'start' instead of 'go'. crazy. :) -sv From walters at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 17:37:17 2008 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:37:17 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199466775.3080.55.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199464650.6858.18.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199464805.3080.36.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199466278.6858.31.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199466775.3080.55.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199468237.6858.40.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:12 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:04 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > Sending SIGHUP to all processes manually is fine; in theory actually the > > kernel will do this for you when the process session group leader exits. > > Now, whether something is correctly set as the process group leader in > > the twisted desktop login stack is an open question. A regression here > > would mostly be masked by the fact that *almost* everything run from the > > desktop does connect to X11. > > Lots of programs (including GNOME ones) daemonizes e.g. creates their > own process group etc. etc. so clearly we can't rely on this. There's no reason for programs to daemonize for the desktop session. If they are, it's a bug. Most likely it's just a case of someone thinking their program is l33t because it's a "daemon". > That's why we need to iterate over the process list and send SIGHUP to > processes matching the uid and XDG_SESSION_COOKIE (or other attribute > but XDG_SESSION_COOKIE is what we have right now). It's not really > rocket science. It's also working around bugs in other apps; and I don't think the list of buggy apps is very large. GConf and bonobo are the two main offenders. > You are being vague here; I think you just use that term because Havoc > said something ?vague about a babysitter execing stuff. The way I read > this (it's vague so I'm guessing) sounds like it needs source code > modification and if it isn't clear I don't think that's an option. It doesn't require modifying apps. The idea is just to have a binary which monitors X11/DBus, and can fork()/exec() a child binary to monitor. If X11 goes away, it kills the child. Thus the only thing that needs to be modified is that the session startup script is changed from: some-random-daemon --args to: dbus-scope-to-session some-random-daemon --args > > But I think (generally speaking) most > > projects nowadays *should* gain a dbus dep, and if we can explain > > clearly to them why it it useful, they would accept it. > > I think that is what they call wishful thinking. Seriously. Let's be more concrete here - what other apps are buggy? From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 17:39:33 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:39:33 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801040932j76674514hd7709d74c54b39d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910801040932j76674514hd7709d74c54b39d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1199468373.3080.63.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 08:32 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Jan 4, 2008 6:22 AM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > Do not pass start. Do not collect $100. > > Has the value of the US dollar de-valued so much that we only get 100 > in funny colored (what I assumed is Canadian) dollars for passing go > now? > > -jef"Back in my day..we got $200..and we liked it"spaleta Sorry, I'm not from around here. And last time I played Monopoly, I guess some 15-20 years ago, the USD was actually twice as much to the DKK than it is today. David From walters at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 17:42:06 2008 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:42:06 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199466101.6858.28.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199463028.6858.9.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199463811.10633.51.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464534.6858.16.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199464650.3080.33.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199466101.6858.28.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1199468526.6858.42.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:01 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > Here's a patch for GConf: This issue can now be tracked at: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=507310 From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 17:44:58 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:44:58 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199468237.6858.40.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199464650.6858.18.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199464805.3080.36.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199466278.6858.31.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199466775.3080.55.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199468237.6858.40.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1199468698.3080.70.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:37 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > It doesn't require modifying apps. The idea is just to have a binary > which monitors X11/DBus, and can fork()/exec() a child binary to > monitor. If X11 goes away, it kills the child. Thus the only thing > that needs to be modified is that the session startup script is changed > from: > > some-random-daemon --args > > to: > > dbus-scope-to-session some-random-daemon --args Falls apart when some-random-daemon daemonizes... > > > But I think (generally speaking) most > > > projects nowadays *should* gain a dbus dep, and if we can explain > > > clearly to them why it it useful, they would accept it. > > > > I think that is what they call wishful thinking. Seriously. > > Let's be more concrete here - what other apps are buggy? I'm sorry but I don't have a magical list of all the potential programs that people may run. And if I did, I certainly wouldn't put myself through the pain of reviewing each and every program even if I had the source code. David From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 18:01:54 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:01:54 -0900 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199468373.3080.63.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910801040932j76674514hd7709d74c54b39d3@mail.gmail.com> <1199468373.3080.63.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <604aa7910801041001k188004bbl1363c16a5cc086d6@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 4, 2008 8:39 AM, David Zeuthen wrote: > Sorry, I'm not from around here. And last time I played Monopoly, I > guess some 15-20 years ago, the USD was actually twice as much to the > DKK than it is today. Which makes the use of the phrase all that more interesting.. in a very off-topic sort of way. Does US consumer culture have a ...monopoly... on widely adopted popular culture? It makes me a little sad to think that it might. I was hoping interacting with a global community, even if we are doing it in Englishese, I'd get a chance to vacuum up some useful, badly translated and out-of-context colloquial phrases from other cultures. -jef"was really hoping the global internet community would develop a pidgin language that looks more like Card's battle school pidgin and less like aol-speak"spaleta From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Jan 4 18:11:21 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 13:11:21 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801041001k188004bbl1363c16a5cc086d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910801040932j76674514hd7709d74c54b39d3@mail.gmail.com> <1199468373.3080.63.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910801041001k188004bbl1363c16a5cc086d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1199470281.14961.21.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 09:01 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Jan 4, 2008 8:39 AM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > Sorry, I'm not from around here. And last time I played Monopoly, I > > guess some 15-20 years ago, the USD was actually twice as much to the > > DKK than it is today. > > Which makes the use of the phrase all that more interesting.. in a > very off-topic sort of way. Does US consumer culture have a > ...monopoly... on widely adopted popular culture? It makes me a > little sad to think that it might. I was hoping interacting with a > global community, even if we are doing it in Englishese, I'd get a > chance to vacuum up some useful, badly translated and out-of-context > colloquial phrases from other cultures. > > -jef"was really hoping the global internet community would develop a > pidgin language that looks more like Card's battle school pidgin and > less like aol-speak"spaleta you're gathering a jeesh even now, ne? :) -sv From jkeating at j2solutions.net Fri Jan 4 18:18:31 2008 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:18:31 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199470281.14961.21.camel@cutter> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910801040932j76674514hd7709d74c54b39d3@mail.gmail.com> <1199468373.3080.63.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910801041001k188004bbl1363c16a5cc086d6@mail.gmail.com> <1199470281.14961.21.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20080104131831.2e467ac3@j2solutions.net> On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 13:11:21 -0500 seth vidal wrote: > you're gathering a jeesh even now, ne? :) Ho, seth. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (jkeating.livejournal.com) Fedora Project (fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From walters at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 18:47:48 2008 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 13:47:48 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199468698.3080.70.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199464650.6858.18.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199464805.3080.36.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199466278.6858.31.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199466775.3080.55.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199468237.6858.40.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> <1199468698.3080.70.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199472468.6858.45.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:44 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > I'm sorry but I don't have a magical list of all the potential programs > that people may run. And if I did, I certainly wouldn't put myself > through the pain of reviewing each and every program even if I had the > source code. Remember though - we're only talking about programs running in the desktop session which don't connect to X. That set is radically smaller than the set of "all potential programs". From nphilipp at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 18:50:37 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:50:37 +0100 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199472637.26301.54.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:29 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > Nils, it's very evident you are in the annoying "oh, but it's worked > this way forever so we can't change it" camp. You need to accept that > some of us are not and your camp is sometimes perceived as hindering > progress. David, you should have listened in on some of the conversations I had with colleagues in the office, then you would have to admit that putting me in the "change is baaad" crowd is a bit far-fetched. If I wanted to talk in terms of "camps" or "crowds" (which I don't, because this kind of simplification just causes hostilities), then I'd put myself in the "let's look at this from all angles" or "don't break things without good cause" corners. Granted, this in itself is a sure recipe to annoy more people and it would help if I not just criticized stuff but also e.g. talked about where I experience new things as positive. Apologies for that. > The indisputable fact is that X11 session service management > is just *broken* as I outlined in my original mail. The fact that some > people take advantage of this brokenness via screen, nohup etc. doesn't > mean we shouldn't fix the fundamental problem. Doesn't mean either we > shouldn't fix the few oddball cases such as screen and nohup to opt out > of getting reaped. If I'm not off track, at least screen predates X session management by a few years. So if anything, X session management was (for want of a better word) designed to not make established ways how to make a process a daemon (and screen, nohup etc. do nothing else) break. It's bad that X session management is broken, but I don't see a compelling reason yet why stuff that has got nothing to do with X should accommodate workarounds for such brokenness. Or to phrase it in a (hopefully) less annoying way: I think it should be feasible to have programs which should end with the session be "bound" (by whatever means) to the session manager in a way where the session manager kills them off at the end of the session without making this leak to all child processes. Kind of like POSIX process groups, where the session manager takes the role of the process group leader. Hey, if GUI apps wouldn't have the obnoxious habit of disconnecting from their parent processes (e.g. via the fork()/exit() "workaround" you mentioned in another post), we even might get by with walking the process tree from the session manager process downwards. Talking about the issue at hand, there are already two ways that cause processes to end if the session ends (libX11 and dbus), it should be easy enough to fix the remainder properly. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From nphilipp at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 19:05:33 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:05:33 +0100 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199468092.3080.58.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <20080104172647.GA17211@tango.0pointer.de> <1199468092.3080.58.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199473533.26301.68.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:34 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 18:26 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > I still believe the proper way to fix this is have some kind of > > babysitter daemon that shares most of its code with the init > > system. The problems for system startup and service management and for > > session startup and service management are mostly the same. Both sides > > would benefit if system and session startup/management would be > > handled by the same powerful system. > > Indeed, but until that pie-in-the-blue-sky thing is available I think > it's worthwhile to make this tiny enhancement (it would have been > quicker to JFDI than entertaining a whole thread about it). What is an enhancement in your scope would break things in other people's scopes -- we would have had this discussion either way. By discussing things first you at least escaped accusations of being part of a "cabal" doing things "in the secret" and "shoving it down other people's throats" ;-P. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 19:21:06 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:21:06 -0900 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199472637.26301.54.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199472637.26301.54.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910801041121m5ed5ec93qa9bdbae0f726911b@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 4, 2008 9:50 AM, Nils Philippsen wrote: > If I'm not off track, at least screen predates X session management by a > few years. So if anything, X session management was (for want of a > better word) designed to not make established ways how to make a process > a daemon (and screen, nohup etc. do nothing else) break. I personally don't know what I would do if screen was forcibly exited when I left the desktop environment. I've been relying on screen to run data analysis processes which take a long time due primarily to file i/o and not memory or cpu. What would be the quickest and least annoying workaround for that behavior. I guess it would be to open a gnome-terminal, then ssh into localhost and then start screen from inside the ssh session. Then when the desktop session ended and all related processes were killed, gnome-terminal and the ssh connection would die, but the screen session would live because it was started from inside the ssh session and thus outside the scope of desktop session itself. -jef From davidz at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 19:23:06 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 14:23:06 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199472637.26301.54.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199472637.26301.54.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1199474586.3080.83.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 19:50 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > David, you should have listened in on some of the conversations (JFYI It's pretty patronizing to address people like "XXX, blabla". It's passive aggressive.) As for the rest of the thread, I give up because, frankly, it's tiring and this part of the open source "process" isn't my cup of tea. Have fun David From sandmann at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 19:54:35 2008 From: sandmann at redhat.com (Soeren Sandmann Pedersen) Date: 04 Jan 2008 14:54:35 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801041001k188004bbl1363c16a5cc086d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910801040932j76674514hd7709d74c54b39d3@mail.gmail.com> <1199468373.3080.63.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910801041001k188004bbl1363c16a5cc086d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Jeff Spaleta" writes: > Which makes the use of the phrase all that more interesting.. in a > very off-topic sort of way. Does US consumer culture have a > ...monopoly... on widely adopted popular culture? This particular game is so old that when it was introduced in Denmark (I don't know exactly when, but definitely before the 1940's), it was extensively localized. The name was changed to "Matador" and all the property names were taken from Copenhagen street names. The board is circular rather than square, and there is only one type of event card. Over time the prices in Matador have changed; in my parents' version of the game you collect DKR 200 when you pass go, in the last version I played, you collect DKR 4000. Another difference is that all the pieces are cars - and always Volvos - in the Danish version. I'm not sure the game would be changed that much if it were introduced to Denmark today. Soren From nphilipp at redhat.com Fri Jan 4 21:07:49 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 22:07:49 +0100 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199474586.3080.83.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199472637.26301.54.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199474586.3080.83.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199480869.26301.90.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 14:23 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 19:50 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > David, you should have listened in on some of the conversations > > (JFYI It's pretty patronizing to address people like "XXX, blabla". It wasn't my intention to patronize you or anybody else just by addressing you with your given name. Sorry for that. > It's passive aggressive.) It isn't. It'd rather be a lack of social graces ;-). > As for the rest of the thread, I give up because, frankly, it's tiring > and this part of the open source "process" isn't my cup of tea. Have fun Arguing about different standpoints can be tiresome sometimes. Hopefully I haven't tired you too much... Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 19:55:53 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 20:55:53 +0100 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302035t17025962jbf22580d02290fc5@mail.gmail.com> <1199077306.17788.106.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> On 12/31/07, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Dec 30, 2007 10:33 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > I'd like to think that if you have a dedicated partition that you > > actually go through the trouble of mounting at a non-standard mount > > point, then it's because you have data on it that you want to access. If > > you want to access the data, then you should get an icon on the desktop. > > For the simple user desktop case, I would agree with you. But there > are non-trivial multiuse scenarios that aren't easily planned for that > end up being a hybrid of desktop and server. Personally ive been > using the 99-redhat file to hide internal partitions on the machines > at home from desktop users which are mounted on demand by services > that make use of the storage area. Doing it at the hal layer makes it > hide everywhere in the Gnome interface: Computer, Desktop, and disk > mounter applet, which makes more sense to me. I was off the mailing list for the week and I see the discussion got long way since I started the thread... I read through posts on this thread and thought about it. I believe that having partitions show up on the Desktop is a good thing, because on a live CD if you want to make some recovery with live cd. On a desktop and laptop systems we (more advanced users or even beginners) have more partitions, maybe 2-3 different linuxes, windows, multimedia partition, document partition, windows shared partition... lots of partition :) No I don't use /home for all my data. I need some of them on my Desktop because it quickens my workflow but I believe that there should be an easy was to remove ones I (and others) don't need on their desktop. The best way from users point of view would be "right click - remove this icon from desktop" or some tool like called Fedora Tweak that would allow this (example: http://ubuntu-tweak.com/screenshots) I'm far from being a developer and I know about "upstream first", but as I understand this can be done without breaking gnome or doing anything against upstream Gnome. > Having all partitions show up in computer window as mountable but only > having some appear on the Desktop as mounted, doesn't make sense to me > either. Being able to turn off disk icons as a group in the desktop, > I understand, but selectively its difficult to see why you want them > to still be mountable but not show up on the Desktop when mounted. > I don't really understand why Valent wants a solution so high up in > the software stack and just worrying about hiding already mounted > partitions selectively. I'm trying real hard to understand the > reasoning to just hide the mounted systems on an individual basis. If > we were going to hide things, I would think we'd want to hide them > from the Gnome desktop everywhere and that means doing it in the Hal > layer so they don't show up in the Computer window as a mountable > partition. Maybe Valent doesn't really means what he thinks he means. > > > -jef I meant exactly what I wrote. Having an icon on the desktop and not being able to remove it easily (just remove it not unmount it) goes agings everything I know about desktop usability. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 22:16:24 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:16:24 -0900 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302035t17025962jbf22580d02290fc5@mail.gmail.com> <1199077306.17788.106.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 5, 2008 10:55 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > I meant exactly what I wrote. Having an icon on the desktop and not > being able to remove it easily (just remove it not unmount it) goes > agings everything I know about desktop usability. Why just removed from the Desktop? Why not also the Computer window? Why not also the disk mounter panel applet? Why not also the Places Menu? The Desktop is not the only interactive UI element where these things show up. I don't understand why the Desktop would be singled out specifically? -jef From nphilipp at redhat.com Sun Jan 6 13:18:35 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:18:35 +0100 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302035t17025962jbf22580d02290fc5@mail.gmail.com> <1199077306.17788.106.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Sat, 2008-01-05 at 13:16 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Jan 5, 2008 10:55 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I meant exactly what I wrote. Having an icon on the desktop and not > > being able to remove it easily (just remove it not unmount it) goes > > agings everything I know about desktop usability. > Why just removed from the Desktop? > Why not also the Computer window? > Why not also the disk mounter panel applet? > Why not also the Places Menu? > > The Desktop is not the only interactive UI element where these things > show up. I don't understand why the Desktop would be singled out > specifically? Maybe because it's just so much more "in your face" than the rest, but really it should be treated the same on all of them. For me it boils down to: 1. If it's a permanent mount in /etc/fstab, my normal user persona usually may not unmount it. 2. If the mounted partiton/volume root isn't writable for that user, it's no more special than other non-writable directories like e.g. /usr. 3. With 1. and 2., I see no reason to have an automatic icon for it on the desktop, in the computer window, on the disk mounter applet or in the places menu. Especially not one I can't remove ;-). Then I don't see a reason for icons that can't be removed, except in the case of removable media or hardware (to have a means to unmmount/prepare the HW for unplugging). For the rest, symlinks in ~/Desktop are just fine (where being removable comes with the package). Sounds sensible? Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org Sun Jan 6 18:35:06 2008 From: dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org (Douglas McClendon) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:35:06 -0600 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199074486.17788.99.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302035t17025962jbf22580d02290fc5@mail.gmail.com> <1199077306.17788.106.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <47811F5A.4060902@filteredperception.org> Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Sat, 2008-01-05 at 13:16 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> On Jan 5, 2008 10:55 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: >>> I meant exactly what I wrote. Having an icon on the desktop and not >>> being able to remove it easily (just remove it not unmount it) goes >>> agings everything I know about desktop usability. >> Why just removed from the Desktop? >> Why not also the Computer window? >> Why not also the disk mounter panel applet? >> Why not also the Places Menu? >> >> The Desktop is not the only interactive UI element where these things >> show up. I don't understand why the Desktop would be singled out >> specifically? > > Maybe because it's just so much more "in your face" than the rest, but +1 obvious answer -dmc From stickster at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 23:50:06 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:50:06 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801041121m5ed5ec93qa9bdbae0f726911b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199472637.26301.54.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <604aa7910801041121m5ed5ec93qa9bdbae0f726911b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1199663406.2356.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:21 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Jan 4, 2008 9:50 AM, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > If I'm not off track, at least screen predates X session management by a > > few years. So if anything, X session management was (for want of a > > better word) designed to not make established ways how to make a process > > a daemon (and screen, nohup etc. do nothing else) break. > > I personally don't know what I would do if screen was forcibly exited > when I left the desktop environment. I've been relying on screen to > run data analysis processes which take a long time due primarily to > file i/o and not memory or cpu. What would be the quickest and least > annoying workaround for that behavior. I guess it would be to open a > gnome-terminal, then ssh into localhost and then start screen from > inside the ssh session. Then when the desktop session ended and all > related processes were killed, gnome-terminal and the ssh connection > would die, but the screen session would live because it was started > from inside the ssh session and thus outside the scope of desktop > session itself. I can't *wait* to explain that in the release notes. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project: http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From davidz at redhat.com Mon Jan 7 15:16:21 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:16:21 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199663406.2356.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199472637.26301.54.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <604aa7910801041121m5ed5ec93qa9bdbae0f726911b@mail.gmail.com> <1199663406.2356.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1199718982.2885.5.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> On Sun, 2008-01-06 at 18:50 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:21 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Jan 4, 2008 9:50 AM, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > > If I'm not off track, at least screen predates X session management by a > > > few years. So if anything, X session management was (for want of a > > > better word) designed to not make established ways how to make a process > > > a daemon (and screen, nohup etc. do nothing else) break. > > > > I personally don't know what I would do if screen was forcibly exited > > when I left the desktop environment. I've been relying on screen to > > run data analysis processes which take a long time due primarily to > > file i/o and not memory or cpu. What would be the quickest and least > > annoying workaround for that behavior. I guess it would be to open a > > gnome-terminal, then ssh into localhost and then start screen from > > inside the ssh session. Then when the desktop session ended and all > > related processes were killed, gnome-terminal and the ssh connection > > would die, but the screen session would live because it was started > > from inside the ssh session and thus outside the scope of desktop > > session itself. > > I can't *wait* to explain that in the release notes. No, Jeff is getting it wrong. According to the thread SIGHUP is proposed to be used and screen(1) don't exit when someone sends SIGHUP to it. No need to cry wolf... David From kevin.kofler at chello.at Mon Jan 7 15:38:33 2008 From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:38:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What should the desktop spin for F9 look like ? References: <1197867125.2962.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Matthias Clasen redhat.com> writes: > + switch from "generic name" style to "name - generic name" ? Yes, please! :-) Ideally that'd be implemented by using both the Name and GenericName fields of the .desktop file, but even putting "name - generic name" into Name would be a huge improvement over having just the generic name there (and require no changes to GNOME, whereas GenericName is currently not supported by GNOME). > + "too much" - what to get rid of in the menus, and how IMHO all GUI apps really need to be in the menus. How else are users supposed to find them? Kevin Kofler From stickster at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 15:56:41 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:56:41 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199718982.2885.5.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199472637.26301.54.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <604aa7910801041121m5ed5ec93qa9bdbae0f726911b@mail.gmail.com> <1199663406.2356.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1199718982.2885.5.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199721401.12031.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 10:16 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Sun, 2008-01-06 at 18:50 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:21 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > On Jan 4, 2008 9:50 AM, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > > > If I'm not off track, at least screen predates X session management by a > > > > few years. So if anything, X session management was (for want of a > > > > better word) designed to not make established ways how to make a process > > > > a daemon (and screen, nohup etc. do nothing else) break. > > > > > > I personally don't know what I would do if screen was forcibly exited > > > when I left the desktop environment. I've been relying on screen to > > > run data analysis processes which take a long time due primarily to > > > file i/o and not memory or cpu. What would be the quickest and least > > > annoying workaround for that behavior. I guess it would be to open a > > > gnome-terminal, then ssh into localhost and then start screen from > > > inside the ssh session. Then when the desktop session ended and all > > > related processes were killed, gnome-terminal and the ssh connection > > > would die, but the screen session would live because it was started > > > from inside the ssh session and thus outside the scope of desktop > > > session itself. > > > > I can't *wait* to explain that in the release notes. > > No, Jeff is getting it wrong. According to the thread SIGHUP is proposed > to be used and screen(1) don't exit when someone sends SIGHUP to it. No > need to cry wolf... /me wipes sweat from brow. :-) Thanks, David. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project: http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nphilipp at redhat.com Mon Jan 7 16:32:36 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:32:36 +0100 Subject: What should the desktop spin for F9 look like ? In-Reply-To: References: <1197867125.2962.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1199723556.18170.58.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 15:38 +0000, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Matthias Clasen redhat.com> writes: > > + switch from "generic name" style to "name - generic name" ? > > Yes, please! :-) > > Ideally that'd be implemented by using both the Name and GenericName fields of ++ > the .desktop file, but even putting "name - generic name" into Name would be a > huge improvement over having just the generic name there (and require no > changes to GNOME, whereas GenericName is currently not supported by GNOME). That'd just generate a huge mess once tools (panel etc.) could cope with Name + GenericName, wouldn't it? If all else fails, allow "Name= - " only if GenericName is empty. > > + "too much" - what to get rid of in the menus, and how > > IMHO all GUI apps really need to be in the menus. How else are users supposed > to find them? In principle yes, but if we talk about live media we can resort to: what's not on the media isn't in the menu either. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From zcerza at redhat.com Mon Jan 7 20:41:34 2008 From: zcerza at redhat.com (Zack Cerza) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:41:34 -0500 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <1199289137.22306.27.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <477A7120.4030508@filteredperception.org> <1199289137.22306.27.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> Message-ID: <47828E7E.8030808@redhat.com> Colin Walters wrote: > On Tue, 2008-01-01 at 10:58 -0600, Douglas McClendon wrote: > >> Personally in response to your issue, I remind you of what you probably >> already know- There is absolutely no reason you NEED to have a *&@#!!! >> file manager as your desktop. Just gconf nautilus away from your >> desktop, and then open nautilus/places from your main menu, or a panel >> launcher when you need to. > > Amen. Hopefully some day we'll be able to escape the "desktop" metaphor > with something more useful; nemo-like or OLPC journal-like. We already can: use the maximize button. On my main laptop every top-level window is always maximized, with the exception of Nautilus and terminal windows. In fact I often go months without seeing my desktop. It doesn't even matter how messy it is! Except that I just cleaned it up halfway through writing this message. :) Zack From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 23:38:38 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:38:38 -0900 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <47811F5A.4060902@filteredperception.org> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <47811F5A.4060902@filteredperception.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910801071538l2c5efac7sc710986bc3f7e28a@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 6, 2008 9:35 AM, Douglas McClendon wrote: > > Maybe because it's just so much more "in your face" than the rest, but > > +1 obvious answer Is it in my face? Is it any the average user's face? I have my browser opened all the time, usually taking up significant real-estate. The same goes for all my family members regardless of operating system. The desktop is really never 'seen' and if anything is just a dumping ground for unsorted files that get downloaded/uploaded from other sources (net or removable media.) Panel real-estate on the other hand is a premium, having unhidable partitions in the disk mounter applet makes that particular panel applet cumbersome to use effectively when you have several mountable partitions. -jef"still finds it really unfortunate that he can't unmount volumes via a context menu from the Places menu itself and is required to either interact with the file manager icons or use the diskmounter panel applet to unmount a device. Not being able to unmount from Places makes it harder to avoid needing to use the 'Desktop' meme."spaleta From dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org Tue Jan 8 01:28:13 2008 From: dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org (Douglas McClendon) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 19:28:13 -0600 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801071538l2c5efac7sc710986bc3f7e28a@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <47811F5A.4060902@filteredperception.org> <604aa7910801071538l2c5efac7sc710986bc3f7e28a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4782D1AD.1030308@filteredperception.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > -jef"still finds it really unfortunate that he can't unmount volumes > via a context menu from the Places menu itself and is required to > either interact with the file manager icons or use the diskmounter > panel applet to unmount a device. Not being able to unmount from > Places makes it harder to avoid needing to use the 'Desktop' > meme."spaleta +1, shouldn't be too hard to fix though I had been happily just yanking usbsticks for a long time, though just the other day I did manage to corrupt a vfat fs on one pretty badly. -dmc From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 03:12:08 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:12:08 -0900 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <4782D1AD.1030308@filteredperception.org> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <47811F5A.4060902@filteredperception.org> <604aa7910801071538l2c5efac7sc710986bc3f7e28a@mail.gmail.com> <4782D1AD.1030308@filteredperception.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910801071912x66d26d3emcf5ea94e409f3f8f@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2008 4:28 PM, Douglas McClendon wrote: > I had been happily just yanking usbsticks for a long time, though just > the other day I did manage to corrupt a vfat fs on one pretty badly. But would you ever want to yank a terabyte sized usb "stick" like Maxtor OneTouch III Turbo 1TB External Drive? -jef From dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org Tue Jan 8 03:46:24 2008 From: dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org (Douglas McClendon) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:46:24 -0600 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801071912x66d26d3emcf5ea94e409f3f8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <47811F5A.4060902@filteredperception.org> <604aa7910801071538l2c5efac7sc710986bc3f7e28a@mail.gmail.com> <4782D1AD.1030308@filteredperception.org> <604aa7910801071912x66d26d3emcf5ea94e409f3f8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4782F210.8060406@filteredperception.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Jan 7, 2008 4:28 PM, Douglas McClendon > wrote: >> I had been happily just yanking usbsticks for a long time, though just >> the other day I did manage to corrupt a vfat fs on one pretty badly. > > But would you ever want to yank a terabyte sized usb "stick" like > Maxtor OneTouch III Turbo 1TB External Drive? Absolutely, if I trusted that the kernel code was smart enough to never result in a corrupted filesystem. I mean, as far as a user experience goes, manual unmounting is one of the biggest hassles around. I know I'm just stating the obvious, and nothing you don't know, but clearly the lack of an external-media-user-interface as robust and easy as MS-windows-3.1 floppy disk interface, has been a serious hinderance to linux's widespread adoption. Maybe someone knowledgable can fill me in- but is there any reason why currently you *can't*(or shouldn't) yank a terabyte external ext3fs usb 2.0 drive? Obviously I wouldn't do it in an enterprise situation until such a practice was widely accepted in the official documentation for a couple years. But it certainly seems like it should be doable with journaled filesystems, and a data volume which you know that you have finished all commands writing to it, for say 3X the the maximum amount of time you know the system would let it have uncommitted writes. -dmc From alexl at redhat.com Tue Jan 8 09:05:16 2008 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:05:16 +0100 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199718982.2885.5.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199472637.26301.54.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <604aa7910801041121m5ed5ec93qa9bdbae0f726911b@mail.gmail.com> <1199663406.2356.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1199718982.2885.5.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1199783116.1511.41.camel@dhcp-208-188.arn.redhat.com> On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 10:16 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Sun, 2008-01-06 at 18:50 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:21 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > On Jan 4, 2008 9:50 AM, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > > > If I'm not off track, at least screen predates X session management by a > > > > few years. So if anything, X session management was (for want of a > > > > better word) designed to not make established ways how to make a process > > > > a daemon (and screen, nohup etc. do nothing else) break. > > > > > > I personally don't know what I would do if screen was forcibly exited > > > when I left the desktop environment. I've been relying on screen to > > > run data analysis processes which take a long time due primarily to > > > file i/o and not memory or cpu. What would be the quickest and least > > > annoying workaround for that behavior. I guess it would be to open a > > > gnome-terminal, then ssh into localhost and then start screen from > > > inside the ssh session. Then when the desktop session ended and all > > > related processes were killed, gnome-terminal and the ssh connection > > > would die, but the screen session would live because it was started > > > from inside the ssh session and thus outside the scope of desktop > > > session itself. > > > > I can't *wait* to explain that in the release notes. > > No, Jeff is getting it wrong. According to the thread SIGHUP is proposed > to be used and screen(1) don't exit when someone sends SIGHUP to it. No > need to cry wolf... SIGHUP already have a defined meaning, and is normally sent when the controlling tty disappears. In an X session this would be when the terminal app dies. I'm not sure that extending/changing this will work well. From nphilipp at redhat.com Tue Jan 8 09:46:13 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:46:13 +0100 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <4782F210.8060406@filteredperception.org> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <47811F5A.4060902@filteredperception.org> <604aa7910801071538l2c5efac7sc710986bc3f7e28a@mail.gmail.com> <4782D1AD.1030308@filteredperception.org> <604aa7910801071912x66d26d3emcf5ea94e409f3f8f@mail.gmail.com> <4782F210.8060406@filteredperception.org> Message-ID: <1199785573.29101.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 21:46 -0600, Douglas McClendon wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Jan 7, 2008 4:28 PM, Douglas McClendon > > wrote: > >> I had been happily just yanking usbsticks for a long time, though just > >> the other day I did manage to corrupt a vfat fs on one pretty badly. > > > > But would you ever want to yank a terabyte sized usb "stick" like > > Maxtor OneTouch III Turbo 1TB External Drive? > > Absolutely, if I trusted that the kernel code was smart enough to never > result in a corrupted filesystem. Hm. I had the impression that even Windows nowadays has icons to "unmount" removable media (like USB sticks), possibly for a reason? Anyway, you'd also have to trust that the hardware can cope with being yanked, possibly in mid-operation. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From walters at redhat.com Tue Jan 8 17:24:45 2008 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:24:45 -0500 Subject: musings on session service mgmt In-Reply-To: <1199783116.1511.41.camel@dhcp-208-188.arn.redhat.com> References: <1199409014.7935.30.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199459695.10633.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199460131.3080.8.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199463540.10633.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1199464197.3080.27.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199472637.26301.54.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <604aa7910801041121m5ed5ec93qa9bdbae0f726911b@mail.gmail.com> <1199663406.2356.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1199718982.2885.5.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <1199783116.1511.41.camel@dhcp-208-188.arn.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1199813085.6334.11.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> On Tue, 2008-01-08 at 10:05 +0100, Alexander Larsson wrote: > SIGHUP already have a defined meaning, and is normally sent when the > controlling tty disappears. Right. > In an X session this would be when the > terminal app dies. I'm not sure that extending/changing this will work > well. It seems analogous to me to send SIGHUP to the process group when the desktop session ends. ConsoleKit adds a new notion of "session" defined by the XDG_SESSION_COOKIE which includes even processes which disassociate themselves from the initial login process group. That's fine and should make things more robust, though I would still argue that processes launched as part of the "normal" desktop which setsid (or more generally "daemonize") are wrong. Anyways, I think if David changes ConsoleKit to send SIGHUP instead of SIGTERM/SIGKILL as he said he would, we're all happy. "nohup" etc. continue to work unmodified. From dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org Tue Jan 8 19:55:06 2008 From: dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org (Douglas McClendon) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:55:06 -0600 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <1199785573.29101.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <47811F5A.4060902@filteredperception.org> <604aa7910801071538l2c5efac7sc710986bc3f7e28a@mail.gmail.com> <4782D1AD.1030308@filteredperception.org> <604aa7910801071912x66d26d3emcf5ea94e409f3f8f@mail.gmail.com> <4782F210.8060406@filteredperception.org> <1199785573.29101.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4783D51A.7080307@filteredperception.org> Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 21:46 -0600, Douglas McClendon wrote: >> Jeff Spaleta wrote: >>> On Jan 7, 2008 4:28 PM, Douglas McClendon >>> wrote: >>>> I had been happily just yanking usbsticks for a long time, though just >>>> the other day I did manage to corrupt a vfat fs on one pretty badly. >>> But would you ever want to yank a terabyte sized usb "stick" like >>> Maxtor OneTouch III Turbo 1TB External Drive? >> Absolutely, if I trusted that the kernel code was smart enough to never >> result in a corrupted filesystem. > > Hm. I had the impression that even Windows nowadays has icons to > "unmount" removable media (like USB sticks), possibly for a reason? why I referenced win3.1 > Anyway, you'd also have to trust that the hardware can cope with being > yanked, possibly in mid-operation. Doesn't sound like an impossible engineering challenge to me. Also why I referenced waiting 3X the time you know that the OS config would allow writes to be in flight (or ye ol sync mount option). Maybe it'll be a solved problem by 2030 or so... -dmc From spamrefuse at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 07:29:14 2008 From: spamrefuse at yahoo.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:29:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help: problem with X11 / XFree86-DRI ; who to blame? Message-ID: <91157.2885.qm@web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, My OS is an up-to-date version of Fedora 7 on a Intel based PC. I use a particular academic/scientific video rendering software VMD ( http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/Research/vmd/ ). This software uses GLX/Mesa heavily. My day-to-day window manager is XFCE. When I use VMD, it immediately freezes keyboard/mouse on my console as soon as any video rendering activity occurs. The typical error message in /var/log/messages is: kernel: [drm:i915_wait_irq] *ERROR* i915_wait_irq: EBUSY -- rec: 147447 emitted: 147473 However, when I switch to KDE window manager, all this does not occur. Obviously I first blamed XFCE, but the developers there are convinced that the Xorg and/or related X11-video drivers are to be blamed. Eventually I solved the problem: I disabled XFree86-DRI in the file /etc/X11/xorg.conf. Is there anybody who knows about this matter and can help me understand what's going on? I'd like to report this problem somewhere, but who is to be blamed? XFCE ? (they deny) Xorg ? Fedora ? XFree86-DRI ? Thanks, Rob. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Wed Jan 9 08:40:30 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 02:40:30 -0600 Subject: Help: problem with X11 / XFree86-DRI ; who to blame? In-Reply-To: <91157.2885.qm@web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <91157.2885.qm@web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4784887E.6060407@prodigy.net.mx> Rob escribi?: > > Hi, > > My OS is an up-to-date version of Fedora 7 on a Intel based PC. > > I use a particular academic/scientific video rendering software VMD > ( http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/Research/vmd/ ). > This software uses GLX/Mesa heavily. > > My day-to-day window manager is XFCE. When I use VMD, it immediately > freezes keyboard/mouse on my console as soon as any video rendering > activity occurs. The typical error message in /var/log/messages is: > > kernel: [drm:i915_wait_irq] *ERROR* i915_wait_irq: EBUSY -- > rec: 147447 emitted: 147473 > > However, when I switch to KDE window manager, all this does not occur. > > Obviously I first blamed XFCE, but the developers there are convinced > that the Xorg and/or related X11-video drivers are to be blamed. > > Eventually I solved the problem: I disabled XFree86-DRI in the file > /etc/X11/xorg.conf. > > Is there anybody who knows about this matter and can help me > understand what's going on? > I'd like to report this problem somewhere, but who is to be blamed? > XFCE ? (they deny) > Xorg ? > Fedora ? > XFree86-DRI ? > > Thanks, > Rob. The kernel error message printed to /var/log/messages and the fact that it does show on XFCE only (and not KDE or presumably other window manager), indeed suggests that the driver is to blame. It's been a while since Xorg substituted XFree86 in Linux distributions, however the DRI method for rendering 3D graphics was kept from it. At any rate, the breakdown of the problem seems to be that XFWM4 the actual "window manager" in XFCE, does include a compositor engine. Do you have it enabled? Do you have the Composite extension enabled in /etc/X11/xorg.conf? Do you have AIGLX enabled in xorg.conf? Do you run another compositing manager in XFCE (say, Compiz or Beryl)? I'd be inclined to think that it is indeed the driver which is at fault, this hints it out: kernel: [drm:i915_wait_irq] *ERROR* i915_wait_irq: EBUSY -- rec: 147447 emitted: 147473 DRM is kernel-side component for DRI to work. DRI stands for Direct Rendering Infrastructure, and DRM (unlike Digital Restrictions Management) stands for Direct Rendering Manager. Are you running 32 or 64-bits? I know it is a shot in the dark, but maybe there is a problem with the IRQ table, maybe adding 'noapic' as a kernel command line argument at boot might solve this? Or maybe checking the IRQ table in the BIOS might also help? Is this a dual core/HT CPU? Are you running the IRQ balance system service? (check with system-config-services) Sorry to have many more questions than answers for you, but the information you provide is scarce... Bottom line, I'd be inclined to think about an IRQ table/balance problem or a driver problem, rather than anything else. From nphilipp at redhat.com Wed Jan 9 10:13:36 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:13:36 +0100 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <4783D51A.7080307@filteredperception.org> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <47811F5A.4060902@filteredperception.org> <604aa7910801071538l2c5efac7sc710986bc3f7e28a@mail.gmail.com> <4782D1AD.1030308@filteredperception.org> <604aa7910801071912x66d26d3emcf5ea94e409f3f8f@mail.gmail.com> <4782F210.8060406@filteredperception.org> <1199785573.29101.21.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <4783D51A.7080307@filteredperception.org> Message-ID: <1199873616.13145.23.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> On Tue, 2008-01-08 at 13:55 -0600, Douglas McClendon wrote: > Nils Philippsen wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 21:46 -0600, Douglas McClendon wrote: > >> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >>> On Jan 7, 2008 4:28 PM, Douglas McClendon > >>> wrote: > >>>> I had been happily just yanking usbsticks for a long time, though just > >>>> the other day I did manage to corrupt a vfat fs on one pretty badly. > >>> But would you ever want to yank a terabyte sized usb "stick" like > >>> Maxtor OneTouch III Turbo 1TB External Drive? > >> Absolutely, if I trusted that the kernel code was smart enough to never > >> result in a corrupted filesystem. > > > > Hm. I had the impression that even Windows nowadays has icons to > > "unmount" removable media (like USB sticks), possibly for a reason? > > why I referenced win3.1 But then win3.1 is not the shining example of robustness we should thrive to emulate, now is it ;-). > > Anyway, you'd also have to trust that the hardware can cope with being > > yanked, possibly in mid-operation. > > Doesn't sound like an impossible engineering challenge to me. Also why > I referenced waiting 3X the time you know that the OS config would allow > writes to be in flight (or ye ol sync mount option). Well, not theoretically impossible, but if I recall correctly there are IDE/ATA/SATA(?) -- eeh -- consumer drives out there that don't even guarantee bits to be on disk when they should be. I think Alan wrote something about that a while ago. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Jan 9 15:17:31 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:17:31 +0000 Subject: gnome-pilot with Bluetooth sync Message-ID: <1199891851.6584.139.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Heya, I've built Matt Davey's work on gnome-pilot into a package. We (read Red Hat) provided Matt with a Bluetooth-enabled Palm so he could do this work, and he e-mailed me a couple of days after the Palm arrived with patches, and a tarball of stuff to test. Unfortunately, I didn't have my Palm to test this on holidays, so here it is a bit later than could have been. You'll need the latest pilot-link build with Bluetooth enabled: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=30826 After that, install those beta gnome-pilot packages: http://people.redhat.com/bnocera/gnome-pilot-bluetooth/ 1. Setup your PC as the BT hotsync device on your Palm: Bluetooth ? Setup Devices ? PC Setup ? Bluetooth Hotsync, and select your computer in the list (make sure it's made visible in the Bluetooth applet's preferences) 2. Add the Palm to the gnome-pilot setup: Preferences ? Hardware ? PalmOS Devices And enable some of the conduits 3. Ready to Sync! Go to Hotsync on the Palm, select your computer in the drop-down, and click the sync icon. Voila! You can use a tool like BTSync to make syncing more automated: http://tinyurl.com/2wgnbf Note that there is a known security problem with the Bluetooth backend: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=508315 This will hopefully be fixed before F9. Cheers From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 16:02:30 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:02:30 +0100 Subject: How to remove some mounted partition icons? In-Reply-To: <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <64b14b300712280203t285e265eta173fc9863f1d90c@mail.gmail.com> <1199077306.17788.106.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302124m2c33ed6xd070fb11b7e4f141@mail.gmail.com> <1199081297.17788.119.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712302233v46f1ca8dg84fc5cdf63cc20cb@mail.gmail.com> <1199086435.17788.142.camel@oneill.fubar.dk> <604aa7910712310041veb9e6f7pb535b3419d332688@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801051155y71066c53nfed9068c4a0dcd35@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910801051416t3d2ec1c3qb3365e7dcb205fa1@mail.gmail.com> <1199625515.14377.17.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300801090802u4c8424d6g10e1aef00870775b@mail.gmail.com> On 1/6/08, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > On Sat, 2008-01-05 at 13:16 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Jan 5, 2008 10:55 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > I meant exactly what I wrote. Having an icon on the desktop and not > > > being able to remove it easily (just remove it not unmount it) goes > > > agings everything I know about desktop usability. > > Why just removed from the Desktop? > > Why not also the Computer window? > > Why not also the disk mounter panel applet? > > Why not also the Places Menu? > > > > The Desktop is not the only interactive UI element where these things > > show up. I don't understand why the Desktop would be singled out > > specifically? > > Maybe because it's just so much more "in your face" than the rest, but > really it should be treated the same on all of them. For me it boils > down to: > > 1. If it's a permanent mount in /etc/fstab, my normal user persona > usually may not unmount it. > 2. If the mounted partiton/volume root isn't writable for that user, > it's no more special than other non-writable directories like e.g. /usr. > 3. With 1. and 2., I see no reason to have an automatic icon for it on > the desktop, in the computer window, on the disk mounter applet or in > the places menu. Especially not one I can't remove ;-). > > Then I don't see a reason for icons that can't be removed, except in the > case of removable media or hardware (to have a means to unmmount/prepare > the HW for unplugging). For the rest, symlinks in ~/Desktop are just > fine (where being removable comes with the package). > > Sounds sensible? > > Nils I think you have nailed it. It sounds really sensible. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From ajackson at redhat.com Wed Jan 9 16:47:12 2008 From: ajackson at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:47:12 -0500 Subject: Help: problem with X11 / XFree86-DRI ; who to blame? In-Reply-To: <91157.2885.qm@web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <91157.2885.qm@web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1199897232.15130.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-01-08 at 23:29 -0800, Rob wrote: > Hi, > > My OS is an up-to-date version of Fedora 7 on a Intel based PC. > > I use a particular academic/scientific video rendering software VMD > ( http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/Research/vmd/ ). > This software uses GLX/Mesa heavily. > > My day-to-day window manager is XFCE. When I use VMD, it immediately > freezes keyboard/mouse on my console as soon as any video rendering > activity occurs. The typical error message in /var/log/messages is: > > kernel: [drm:i915_wait_irq] *ERROR* i915_wait_irq: EBUSY -- > rec: 147447 emitted: 147473 That would be a bug in either the kernel driver for the 915, or in the Mesa 3d driver. > Eventually I solved the problem: I disabled XFree86-DRI in the file > /etc/X11/xorg.conf. If disabling DRI fixes it and you still perceive the software to be usable, it must not be using GL that heavily... - ajax From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Fri Jan 11 16:45:05 2008 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:45:05 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. Message-ID: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> Hi all, Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by default starting with F9. (1) http://mail.gnome.org/archives/devel-announce-list/2008-January/msg00001.html Thanks, /B -- Brian Pepple http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BrianPepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rstrode at redhat.com Fri Jan 11 17:08:28 2008 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:08:28 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> Message-ID: <20080111120828.21f29d0a@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> Hi, > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > default starting with F9. seems like a no brainer. We try to ship as close to upstream as we can, and it finally made it upstream. --Ray From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Jan 11 17:12:02 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:12:02 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> Message-ID: <1200071522.2829.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 11:45 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote: > Hi all, > > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > default starting with F9. > > (1) > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/devel-announce-list/2008-January/msg00001.html swfdec-gnome sounds vastly less important/interesting than swfdec-mozilla. If it works well enough, I don't see any problem with installing it by default. The last time I tried swfdec (shortly after it moved over from livna), sound didn't really work at all for me. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Jan 11 17:23:59 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:53:59 +0530 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1200071522.2829.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200071522.2829.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4787A62F.9000207@fedoraproject.org> Matthias Clasen wrote: > > If it works well enough, I don't see any problem with installing it by > default. The last time I tried swfdec (shortly after it moved over from > livna), sound didn't really work at all for me. That was fixed in the most recent update. You should try again. Rahul From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Fri Jan 11 17:16:40 2008 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:16:40 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1200071522.2829.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200071522.2829.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1200071800.10694.12.camel@nixon> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 12:12 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > swfdec-gnome sounds vastly less important/interesting than > swfdec-mozilla. > > If it works well enough, I don't see any problem with installing it by > default. The last time I tried swfdec (shortly after it moved over from > livna), sound didn't really work at all for me. That was probably before I enabled the pulse audio support in Rawhide. Later, /B -- Brian Pepple http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BrianPepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Jan 11 17:20:14 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:20:14 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <4787A62F.9000207@fedoraproject.org> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200071522.2829.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4787A62F.9000207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1200072014.2829.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 22:53 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > > If it works well enough, I don't see any problem with installing it by > > default. The last time I tried swfdec (shortly after it moved over from > > livna), sound didn't really work at all for me. > > That was fixed in the most recent update. You should try again. I will. From bnocera at redhat.com Fri Jan 11 22:38:52 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:38:52 +0000 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> Message-ID: <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 11:45 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote: > Hi all, > > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > default starting with F9. People will go to YouTube, DailyMotion and plenty of other places, and it won't work because the plugin needs to implement GStreamer's missing plugins. Then missing plugins will be automatically installed (hopefully). From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Sat Jan 12 18:29:07 2008 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:29:07 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 22:38 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 11:45 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote: > > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > > default starting with F9. > > People will go to YouTube, DailyMotion and plenty of other places, and > it won't work because the plugin needs to implement GStreamer's missing > plugins. Then missing plugins will be automatically installed > (hopefully). Yeah, Codeina support (much like totem or rhythmbox has) would need to be added. Later, /B -- Brian Pepple http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BrianPepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mbarnes at redhat.com Wed Jan 16 04:50:24 2008 From: mbarnes at redhat.com (Matthew Barnes) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:50:24 -0500 Subject: ZCS Evolution Connector Message-ID: <1200459024.25905.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Just wanted to mention that evolution-zimbra packages are now available for Fedora 8 and Fedora Development. I'll be pushing the F-8 packages through the updates channel, but you can retrieve them now from Koji. http://koji.fedoraproject.org/packages/evolution-zimbra/0.1.0/ evolution-zimbra is an Evolution extension that allows it to talk to a Zimbra server [1], similar in concept to evolution-exchange. It was developed by Zimbra (now part of Yahoo!) and recently donated to the public domain. The "upstream" project is now hosted at SourceForge [2], and I've taken over maintainership at least for the time being. Currently it does not work on 64-bit architectures. That's a known problem and something I hope to correct soon. Feel free to report other bugs to Red Hat's Bugzilla or the bug tracker at SourceForge. Matthew Barnes [1] http://www.zimbra.com/products/zimbra_linux_mac_server.html [2] http://sourceforge.net/projects/zimbraevo From otte at gnome.org Wed Jan 16 15:10:33 2008 From: otte at gnome.org (Benjamin Otte) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:10:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> Message-ID: Brian Pepple fedoraproject.org> writes: > I would like to propose that we [possibly] install ... swfdec-mozilla > by default starting with F9. > As the maintainer of Swfdec, I'd like to add some comments about this option that should help you decide about this proposal. The short version is that I would not recommend Swfdec for distro releases that do a long-term support release. Apart from that, I'd be very happy if distributions include Swfdec as long as they don't expect a perfect Flash player. Swfdec has arrived at a stage where it can be useful to a lot of people. It plays most smaller Flash files and is often good enough for mid-sized Flash files, such as the players on the various video sites or Flash games. However it's also pretty bad on Flash-heavy websites and not very good at playing Flash 9. However, there's also some reasons that speak against Swfdec. Swfdec has not had a lot of exposure yet. I have no clue about how many people use it, but shipping it by default on a distro such as Fedora would increase that a lot. And exposure can uncover lots of issues that upstream (we) didn't think about, such as finding lots of problematic crasher bugs or flooding our bugzilla. I've experienced this exposure issue once with GStreamer, so I feel pretty well prepared, but who knows. Another issue coupled with the above is that the Swfdec plugin runs in-process in the browser. [1] This of course means that when Swfdec crashes, your browser is gone, too. However, we're still proud of the Swfdec's stability. But you have been warned. :) Another thing is that Swfdec has never been security audited. We've run it with tools like zzuf, we've got pretty evil tests in our testsuite, we copy an existing and proven system, but we're no security experts and Swfdec is 50k lines of code. Swfdec is also in heavy development, I tend to call it "surprisingly usable alpha software". We change a lot of code quickly. (A year ago Swfdec didn't even play Youtube.) This also means that we currently don't want to support the current versions eternally. (Probably - like Gnome - we'll actively support it until the next stable version is released in 6 months.) This is my main reason for not suggesting it for long-term support releases. So that being said, I'd be very happy to see you install Swfdec-Mozilla by default. I'm running it in my default browser since about a year and I didn't get annoyed at it. Cheers, Benjamin [1]: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9805 From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Jan 16 15:22:24 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:22:24 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> Message-ID: <1200496944.2771.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-01-16 at 15:10 +0000, Benjamin Otte wrote: > Brian Pepple fedoraproject.org> writes: > > > I would like to propose that we [possibly] install ... swfdec-mozilla > > by default starting with F9. > > > As the maintainer of Swfdec, I'd like to add some comments about this option > that should help you decide about this proposal. > > The short version is that I would not recommend Swfdec for distro releases that > do a long-term support release. Apart from that, I'd be very happy if > distributions include Swfdec as long as they don't expect a perfect Flash > player. > > Swfdec has arrived at a stage where it can be useful to a lot of people. It > plays most smaller Flash files and is often good enough for mid-sized Flash > files, such as the players on the various video sites or Flash games. However > it's also pretty bad on Flash-heavy websites and not very good at playing > Flash 9. > > However, there's also some reasons that speak against Swfdec. Swfdec has not > had a lot of exposure yet. I have no clue about how many people use it, but > shipping it by default on a distro such as Fedora would increase that a lot. > And exposure can uncover lots of issues that upstream (we) didn't think about, > such as finding lots of problematic crasher bugs or flooding our bugzilla. I've > experienced this exposure issue once with GStreamer, so I feel pretty well > prepared, but who knows. > > Another issue coupled with the above is that the Swfdec plugin runs in-process > in the browser. [1] This of course means that when Swfdec crashes, your browser > is gone, too. However, we're still proud of the Swfdec's stability. But you > have been warned. :) > Another thing is that Swfdec has never been security audited. We've run it with > tools like zzuf, we've got pretty evil tests in our testsuite, we copy an > existing and proven system, but we're no security experts and Swfdec is 50k > lines of code. > > Swfdec is also in heavy development, I tend to call it "surprisingly usable > alpha software". We change a lot of code quickly. (A year ago Swfdec didn't > even play Youtube.) This also means that we currently don't want to support the > current versions eternally. (Probably - like Gnome - we'll actively support it > until the next stable version is released in 6 months.) This is my main reason > for not suggesting it for long-term support releases. > > So that being said, I'd be very happy to see you install Swfdec-Mozilla by > default. I'm running it in my default browser since about a year and I didn't > get annoyed at it. > Thanks a lot for this perspective, Benjamin. One thing we can do to get you some exposure is to put swfdec-mozilla in the default install for the beta. If the deluge of crasher bug reports turns out to be overwhelming, we'll remove it again for the final release. From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 22:05:32 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:05:32 -0900 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> Message-ID: <604aa7910801161405v63663c62re5e7833fed4ee6c7@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 16, 2008 6:10 AM, Benjamin Otte wrote: > Another issue coupled with the above is that the Swfdec plugin runs in-process > in the browser. [1] Even if we use the nspluginwrapper package? -jef From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Jan 22 20:18:43 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:18:43 -0500 Subject: Media handling changes in F9 Message-ID: <1201033123.2791.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> I thought I should give a bit of an overview of some media handling changes that we have landed in rawhide over the last weeks. The handling of automatic mounting and running of applications when media is inserted has been moved from gnome-volume-manager to nautilus. This is part of the longer-term plan to kill gnome-volume-manager, or at least make it totally unnecessary. Together with this, the first two tabs of the "Removable Drives and Media" capplet have been removed (which makes the name a bit of a farce...). The config ui for media handling can now be found in the "File Management Preferences" capplet, on the "Media" tab. The content for this tab is driven by the MimeType field in desktop files, by means of a set of new "content types". Conceptually, these content types are close to mime types, but not quite the same. While mime types describe the format of individual files or data streams, content types describe containers or media. Currently, the following content types have been introduced: x-content/blank-cd x-content/blank-dvd x-content/blank-bd x-content/blank-hddvd x-content/video-dvd x-content/video-vcd x-content/video-svcd x-content/video-blueray x-content/video-hddvd x-content/audio-cdda x-content/audio-dvd x-content/audio-player x-content/image-dcf x-content/image-picturecd If you maintain an application that can handle one of these types, making it show up in the correct combo boxes in that dialog is as easy as adding the x-content/foo to the MimeType field in the desktop file, or adding a MimeType field if there isn't one already. Note that lists in desktop files end with a ;, ie MimeType=application/x-ogg;x-content/audio-player; is correct, MimeType=application/x-ogg;x-content/audio-player is not. Matthias From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 21:18:50 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:18:50 -0900 Subject: Media handling changes in F9 In-Reply-To: <1201033123.2791.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1201033123.2791.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910801221318qa28a044nda2a51785d709959@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 22, 2008 11:18 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Currently, the following content types have been introduced: Does the new world order gracefully handle the case of mixed media, for example an audio cd that has a data partition as well as audio data? I bring that case up, because how it is specifcally handled now is one of my biggest pet peeves. Right now with default mounting settings insertion of this sort of object causes the data partition to be mounted and cause apps like sound juicer to fail when they attempt to extract the audio data. you have to unmount the data partition to get audio ripping to work..but since you can't unmount without also ejecting (via exposed ui).. you have to turn off auto-mounting completely for ripping to work. Madness. So with that as context, does the new world order allow for mix media? Will there be a way to define how to "prefer" one content type over another when the media can be counted as multiple types? Obviously in this example, prefering to treating the media as audio over data is sanest because I don't fall into the "unmount but don't eject" trap like i do if its treated the other way around. -jef From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Jan 22 22:10:14 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:10:14 +0000 Subject: Media handling changes in F9 In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801221318qa28a044nda2a51785d709959@mail.gmail.com> References: <1201033123.2791.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801221318qa28a044nda2a51785d709959@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201039814.2676.119.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2008-01-22 at 12:18 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Jan 22, 2008 11:18 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Currently, the following content types have been introduced: > > Does the new world order gracefully handle the case of mixed media, for example > an audio cd that has a data partition as well as audio data? Yes it does. Although you'd need applications to use the libcdio-based CD source in GStreamer applications for this to work. We haven't done that yet, as the libcdio source in GStreamer is really slow. David had some screenshots somewhere, but I don't have them at hand. Hopefully, the libcdio problems will be sorted before F9. Cheers From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 22:48:36 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:48:36 -0900 Subject: Media handling changes in F9 In-Reply-To: <1201039814.2676.119.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1201033123.2791.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801221318qa28a044nda2a51785d709959@mail.gmail.com> <1201039814.2676.119.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <604aa7910801221448i40481b92o3faf764b549080ed@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 22, 2008 1:10 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > Yes it does. that's all i need to hear. As long as its on the map, i'm happy. -jef From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 10:32:48 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 11:32:48 +0100 Subject: What should the desktop spin for F9 look like ? In-Reply-To: <1197867125.2962.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1197867125.2962.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4799BAD0.3070507@gmail.com> Matthias Clasen wrote: > Jonathan tried to kick off this discussion earlier, with some success. > I think we should revive the desktop SIG and start to work out some > concrete goals for what we want to improve in the desktop spin for F9. > > > Here are some things that we might want to discuss: > > - menus > + switch from "generic name" style to "name - generic name" ? > + "too much" - what to get rid of in the menus, and how > > - login screen > + can we make the special live-cd situation more intuitive ? > > - bootup > + should we look at the nm dispatcher work by jon nettleton ? > > - content > + people have proposed to add some free content to the cd > > - anything else people want to see improved > > > Matthias > I have posted this idea before but on fedora-devel mailin list, and it got great response. I'm reposting it here and adding a RFE to fedora-destop. * Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get Live Help") Fedora is about freedom+communication, right? Why not make this statement more that just a nice slogan. If you installed saabyon linux you could experienced for yourself what this really means. I as a new user to gentoo (sabayon is based on gentoo) was really blown away with this feature. It is really, really simple to implement and gives a real meaning to a communication friendly linux distro. In sabayon link to their IRC chat has a simple name "Get Live Help" and it work fabulous! I didn't have any Portage experience so I poped in IRC chat room and was on my way after I got quick help. Whis kind of help was precious to me and would love to see it in fedora as one of it's main features and not just as a slogan. screenshot: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=382063978&size=l From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 11:34:13 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:34:13 +0100 Subject: What should the desktop spin for F9 look like ? In-Reply-To: <4799BAD0.3070507@gmail.com> References: <1197867125.2962.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4799BAD0.3070507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4799C935.8020107@gmail.com> Valent Turkovic wrote: > Matthias Clasen wrote: >> Jonathan tried to kick off this discussion earlier, with some success. >> I think we should revive the desktop SIG and start to work out some >> concrete goals for what we want to improve in the desktop spin for F9. >> >> >> Here are some things that we might want to discuss: >> >> - menus >> + switch from "generic name" style to "name - generic name" ? + >> "too much" - what to get rid of in the menus, and how >> >> - login screen >> + can we make the special live-cd situation more intuitive ? >> >> - bootup + should we look at the nm dispatcher work by jon nettleton ? >> >> - content >> + people have proposed to add some free content to the cd >> >> - anything else people want to see improved >> >> >> Matthias >> > > I have posted this idea before but on fedora-devel mailin list, and it > got great response. I'm reposting it here and adding a RFE to > fedora-destop. > > * Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get Live Help") > Fedora is about freedom+communication, right? Why not make this > statement more that just a nice slogan. If you installed saabyon linux > you could experienced for yourself what this really means. I as a new > user to gentoo (sabayon is based on gentoo) was really blown away with > this feature. It is really, really simple to implement and gives a > real meaning to a communication friendly linux distro. > In sabayon link to their IRC chat has a simple name "Get Live Help" > and it work fabulous! I didn't have any Portage experience so I poped > in IRC chat room and was on my way after I got quick help. Whis kind > of help was precious to me and would love to see it in fedora as one > of it's main features and not just as a slogan. > screenshot: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=382063978&size=l Here are some of the suggestions that followed this discussion: +1 although should this need a specific support channel? I would really like this for a rescue situation, so that I don't have to register nick's and muck around trying to remember my nick and password. For total newbies, it'd be good too. I imagine that it wouldn't that significant of a burden. Over on the user list, the OP mentioned Sabayon doing this. Pidgin is in the live cd and would work fine for this, to my knowledge. It would have to be something in the live cd. I see it more as a live-cd thing rather than necessary on an actual install. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 11:38:30 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:38:30 +0100 Subject: What should the desktop spin for F9 look like ? In-Reply-To: <4799C935.8020107@gmail.com> References: <1197867125.2962.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4799BAD0.3070507@gmail.com> <4799C935.8020107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4799CA36.5040807@gmail.com> Valent Turkovic wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: >> Matthias Clasen wrote: >>> Jonathan tried to kick off this discussion earlier, with some success. >>> I think we should revive the desktop SIG and start to work out some >>> concrete goals for what we want to improve in the desktop spin for F9. >>> >>> >>> Here are some things that we might want to discuss: >>> >>> - menus >>> + switch from "generic name" style to "name - generic name" ? + >>> "too much" - what to get rid of in the menus, and how >>> >>> - login screen >>> + can we make the special live-cd situation more intuitive ? >>> >>> - bootup + should we look at the nm dispatcher work by jon nettleton ? >>> >>> - content >>> + people have proposed to add some free content to the cd >>> >>> - anything else people want to see improved >>> >>> >>> Matthias >>> >> >> I have posted this idea before but on fedora-devel mailin list, and it >> got great response. I'm reposting it here and adding a RFE to >> fedora-destop. >> >> * Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get Live Help") >> Fedora is about freedom+communication, right? Why not make this >> statement more that just a nice slogan. If you installed saabyon linux >> you could experienced for yourself what this really means. I as a new >> user to gentoo (sabayon is based on gentoo) was really blown away with >> this feature. It is really, really simple to implement and gives a >> real meaning to a communication friendly linux distro. >> In sabayon link to their IRC chat has a simple name "Get Live Help" >> and it work fabulous! I didn't have any Portage experience so I poped >> in IRC chat room and was on my way after I got quick help. Whis kind >> of help was precious to me and would love to see it in fedora as one >> of it's main features and not just as a slogan. >> screenshot: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=382063978&size=l > > Here are some of the suggestions that followed this discussion: > > +1 although should this need a specific support channel? > > I would really like this for a rescue situation, so that I don't have to > register nick's and muck around trying to remember my nick and password. > For total newbies, it'd be good too. I imagine that it wouldn't that > significant of a burden. > Over on the user list, the OP mentioned Sabayon doing this. Pidgin is in > the live cd and would work fine for this, to my knowledge. It would > have to be something in the live cd. I see it more as a live-cd thing > rather than necessary on an actual install. Here is the RFE in bz: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=430217 From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 20:27:14 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 11:27:14 -0900 Subject: What should the desktop spin for F9 look like ? In-Reply-To: <4799BAD0.3070507@gmail.com> References: <1197867125.2962.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4799BAD0.3070507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910801251227t13fd528s9ba0388dcdffc668@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 25, 2008 1:32 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > * Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get Live Help") > Fedora is about freedom+communication, right? For those of you who remember..... Ximian's Gnome desktop had a specialized irc client and a gnome panel entry that started it up that did this very thing in the RHL 7.x time period. I spent an inordinate amount of time on Ximian's monkeychat irc channel, helping people through things. I think it was a valuable thing to have, but it was not really organized. If we were going to do something similar in Fedora, I would strongly suggest these items be addressed before it goes live in a spin: 1) that we have a team of individuals ready to go as ops for the channel before it goes live in a spin, with an effort to get 24 hour coverage. These are the people with the authority to step in and move things along if the conversation degrades. 2) Identify a "helper" role and a list of people who are filling that role and provide best practices policy for how to help users coming in with problems. This may or may not be the same as the ops role. The point being these are the people who commit to "helpdesk hours" in a public way. If someone comes in at a certain time, they should be able to check and see if a helper is manning the helpdesk. Mutual aid between users is a very useful thing, but having someone there who is committed to setting an example on how to work through problems with other people goes along way towards keeping things pleasant and constructive. 3) There needs to be an established rules of conduct which is presented to users before they enter the channel. Not in the channel topic...after they've entered. I want a nag dialog, prior to entering irc-space. A first time dialog would be fine. -jef From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 14:06:32 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:06:32 +0100 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? Message-ID: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> Hi, I just got back from testing a bit rawhide and new Firefox 3 works great and one thing I noticed is that there is a flash plugin in rawhide. I didn't know about swfdec project [1] before only about gnash [2]. I tested a bunch of flash video sites and I only got flash based ads to play. Every video I tried it failed - file plays but only audio. Is this an isolated bug I came across or swfdec is just too early in development to be able to play videos? Will there be an easy way of installing flash proprietary plugin (as much as we hate it all) if swfdec has no ability to play flash videos? Because users expect that things JustWork, especially their precious youtube :) Sites I tested and got no video: http://fedoratv.com http://www.ted.com http://www.youtube.com/ http://www.redtube.com http://www.metacafe.com http://www.videojug.com http://sclipo.com/ http://www.blip.tv http://www.dailymotion.com http://video.google.com/ http://crackle.com http://www.revver.com http://www.veoh.com/ http://video.msn.com [1] http://swfdec.freedesktop.org/ [2] http://www.gnu.org/software/gnash/ Cheers, Valent From bnocera at redhat.com Sat Jan 26 14:49:52 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 14:49:52 +0000 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 15:06 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, > I just got back from testing a bit rawhide and new Firefox 3 works great > and one thing I noticed is that there is a flash plugin in rawhide. I > didn't know about swfdec project [1] before only about gnash [2]. > I tested a bunch of flash video sites and I only got flash based ads to > play. Every video I tried it failed - file plays but only audio. Is this > an isolated bug I came across or swfdec is just too early in development > to be able to play videos? > > Will there be an easy way of installing flash proprietary plugin (as > much as we hate it all) if swfdec has no ability to play flash videos? > Because users expect that things JustWork, especially their precious > youtube :) You're missing the FLV demuxer and FLV decoders, which are present in gstreamer-ffmpeg (which you can find on Livna, in their development repository for example). There's a feature request about adding missing-plugins support to swfdec, see: http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14040 Cheers From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 15:32:11 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:32:11 +0100 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 15:06 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> Hi, >> I just got back from testing a bit rawhide and new Firefox 3 works great >> and one thing I noticed is that there is a flash plugin in rawhide. I >> didn't know about swfdec project [1] before only about gnash [2]. >> I tested a bunch of flash video sites and I only got flash based ads to >> play. Every video I tried it failed - file plays but only audio. Is this >> an isolated bug I came across or swfdec is just too early in development >> to be able to play videos? >> >> Will there be an easy way of installing flash proprietary plugin (as >> much as we hate it all) if swfdec has no ability to play flash videos? >> Because users expect that things JustWork, especially their precious >> youtube :) > > You're missing the FLV demuxer and FLV decoders, which are present in > gstreamer-ffmpeg (which you can find on Livna, in their development > repository for example). > > There's a feature request about adding missing-plugins support to > swfdec, see: > http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14040 > > Cheers > So there is really going to be proprietary free flash in fedora? Whoow, great news! Valent From mclasen at redhat.com Sat Jan 26 17:00:00 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:00:00 -0500 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 16:32 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > So there is really going to be proprietary free flash in fedora? Whoow, > great news! Flash video is going to be pretty much impossible to support in Fedora itself. The best we can do here is to add codeina support and then a) hope that fluendo or somebody else offer a legal flash video codec via that channel and/or b) someone adds third-party repository support to codeina and we leave it to the users to find the right repositories From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 18:26:13 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:26:13 +0100 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <479B7B45.4060300@gmail.com> Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 16:32 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > >> So there is really going to be proprietary free flash in fedora? Whoow, >> great news! > > Flash video is going to be pretty much impossible to support in Fedora > itself. The best we can do here is to add codeina support and then > > a) hope that fluendo or somebody else offer a legal flash video codec > via that channel > > and/or > > b) someone adds third-party repository support to codeina and we leave > it to the users to find the right repositories > I removed macromedia flash plugin and then installed swfdec and gstreamer-ffmpeg (both from livna) and under Fedora 8 nothing works, not even the audio. I saw that swfdec in F8 is 0.5.3 and in rawhide its 0.5.5 so maybe this is too old version... I'll reboot to Rawhide and report back. Cheers, Valent. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 18:27:37 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:27:37 +0100 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <479B7B99.1050409@gmail.com> Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 16:32 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > >> So there is really going to be proprietary free flash in fedora? Whoow, >> great news! > > Flash video is going to be pretty much impossible to support in Fedora > itself. The best we can do here is to add codeina support and then > > a) hope that fluendo or somebody else offer a legal flash video codec > via that channel > > and/or > > b) someone adds third-party repository support to codeina and we leave > it to the users to find the right repositories > Just to be clear I did this: mv /usr/lib/flash-plugin/libflashplayer.so \ /usr/lib/flash-plugin/libflashplayer.so.bad yum install swfdec-mozilla -y yum install gstreamer-ffmpeg -y From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Sat Jan 26 18:42:01 2008 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:42:01 -0500 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <479B7B45.4060300@gmail.com> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <479B7B45.4060300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201372921.14188.17.camel@nixon> On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 19:26 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I removed macromedia flash plugin and then installed swfdec and > gstreamer-ffmpeg (both from livna) and under Fedora 8 nothing works, not > even the audio. I saw that swfdec in F8 is 0.5.3 and in rawhide its > 0.5.5 so maybe this is too old version... That swfdec for F8 your using is from livna I'm assuming, which doesn't have pulse audio or gstreamer support enabled. Later, /B -- Brian Pepple http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BrianPepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 19:21:42 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:21:42 +0100 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <1201372921.14188.17.camel@nixon> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <479B7B45.4060300@gmail.com> <1201372921.14188.17.camel@nixon> Message-ID: <64b14b300801261121v6482ffc6n44f43a175f1fe96a@mail.gmail.com> 2008/1/26 Brian Pepple : > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 19:26 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > I removed macromedia flash plugin and then installed swfdec and > > gstreamer-ffmpeg (both from livna) and under Fedora 8 nothing works, not > > even the audio. I saw that swfdec in F8 is 0.5.3 and in rawhide its > > 0.5.5 so maybe this is too old version... > > That swfdec for F8 your using is from livna I'm assuming, which doesn't > have pulse audio or gstreamer support enabled. > > Later, > /B Yes from livna. But one in Rawhide should work? As I said on swfdec mailing list it still doesn't work in rawhide even after installing all gstreamer plugins and gstreamer-ffmpeg Am I missing something? On Fedora 8 I tried also coping /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/libswfdecmozilla.so from rawhide to fedora 8, just to see if it will work :) It didn't :) Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Jan 26 19:40:22 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 01:10:22 +0530 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801261121v6482ffc6n44f43a175f1fe96a@mail.gmail.com> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <479B7B45.4060300@gmail.com> <1201372921.14188.17.camel@nixon> <64b14b300801261121v6482ffc6n44f43a175f1fe96a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479B8CA6.9070700@fedoraproject.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Yes from livna. But one in Rawhide should work? As I said on swfdec > mailing list it still doesn't work in rawhide even after installing > all gstreamer plugins and gstreamer-ffmpeg > > Am I missing something? Can you keep the discussions in one list instead of cross posting and having simultaneous discussions on two different lists. You have been doing that repeatedly. fedora-test list would be appropriate for rawhide issues. Rahul From martin.sourada at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 00:14:31 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 01:14:31 +0100 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801261121v6482ffc6n44f43a175f1fe96a@mail.gmail.com> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <479B7B45.4060300@gmail.com> <1201372921.14188.17.camel@nixon> <64b14b300801261121v6482ffc6n44f43a175f1fe96a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201392871.7165.54.camel@pc-notebook> On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 20:21 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > 2008/1/26 Brian Pepple : > > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 19:26 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > > > I removed macromedia flash plugin and then installed swfdec and > > > gstreamer-ffmpeg (both from livna) and under Fedora 8 nothing works, not > > > even the audio. I saw that swfdec in F8 is 0.5.3 and in rawhide its > > > 0.5.5 so maybe this is too old version... > > > > That swfdec for F8 your using is from livna I'm assuming, which doesn't > > have pulse audio or gstreamer support enabled. > > > > Later, > > /B > > Yes from livna. But one in Rawhide should work? As I said on swfdec > mailing list it still doesn't work in rawhide even after installing > all gstreamer plugins and gstreamer-ffmpeg > > Am I missing something? > > On Fedora 8 I tried also coping > /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/libswfdecmozilla.so from rawhide to fedora 8, > just to see if it will work :) > It didn't :) > > Valent. > > -- > http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ > linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless > registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. > ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic > Dunno whats wrong with your config, but for me under F8 its working flawlessly after I updated swfdec to rawhide version (the previous worked as well, only without audio and some videos, mostly those from youtube but accessed from elsewhere, didn't work). Here's what I've got (you can safely ignore the *-devel packages): $ rpm -qa | grep swfdec swfdec-mozilla-0.5.5-2.fc9 swfdec-gtk-0.5.5-2.fc9 swfdec-0.5.5-2.fc9 $ rpm -qa | grep gstreamer gstreamer-0.10.15-1.fc8 gstreamer-plugins-bad-0.10.5-12.lvn8 gstreamer-tools-0.10.15-1.fc8 gstreamer-plugins-base-0.10.15-1.fc8 gstreamer-plugins-ugly-0.10.6-5.lvn8 gstreamer-plugins-good-0.10.6-7.fc8 gstreamer-python-0.10.8-2.fc8 gstreamer-plugins-pulse-0.9.5-0.4.svn20070924.fc8 gstreamer-ffmpeg-0.10.3-1.lvn8 gstreamer-devel-0.10.15-1.fc8 gstreamer-plugins-base-devel-0.10.15-1.fc8 Hope this helps you fix your problems. Also, I don't use the proprietary plugin, so swfdec is the only plugin installed that can handle flash. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 01:40:02 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 02:40:02 +0100 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <1201392871.7165.54.camel@pc-notebook> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <479B7B45.4060300@gmail.com> <1201372921.14188.17.camel@nixon> <64b14b300801261121v6482ffc6n44f43a175f1fe96a@mail.gmail.com> <1201392871.7165.54.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <64b14b300801261740o5b0c0936nbd59608b546c523b@mail.gmail.com> 2008/1/27 Martin Sourada : > > > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 20:21 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > 2008/1/26 Brian Pepple : > > > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 19:26 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > > > > > I removed macromedia flash plugin and then installed swfdec and > > > > gstreamer-ffmpeg (both from livna) and under Fedora 8 nothing works, not > > > > even the audio. I saw that swfdec in F8 is 0.5.3 and in rawhide its > > > > 0.5.5 so maybe this is too old version... > > > > > > That swfdec for F8 your using is from livna I'm assuming, which doesn't > > > have pulse audio or gstreamer support enabled. > > > > > > Later, > > > /B > > > > Yes from livna. But one in Rawhide should work? As I said on swfdec > > mailing list it still doesn't work in rawhide even after installing > > all gstreamer plugins and gstreamer-ffmpeg > > > > Am I missing something? > > > > On Fedora 8 I tried also coping > > /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/libswfdecmozilla.so from rawhide to fedora 8, > > just to see if it will work :) > > It didn't :) > > > > Valent. > > > > -- > > http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ > > linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless > > registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. > > ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic > > > > Dunno whats wrong with your config, but for me under F8 its working > flawlessly after I updated swfdec to rawhide version (the previous > worked as well, only without audio and some videos, mostly those from > youtube but accessed from elsewhere, didn't work). > > Here's what I've got (you can safely ignore the *-devel packages): > $ rpm -qa | grep swfdec > swfdec-mozilla-0.5.5-2.fc9 > swfdec-gtk-0.5.5-2.fc9 > swfdec-0.5.5-2.fc9 > > $ rpm -qa | grep gstreamer > gstreamer-0.10.15-1.fc8 > gstreamer-plugins-bad-0.10.5-12.lvn8 > gstreamer-tools-0.10.15-1.fc8 > gstreamer-plugins-base-0.10.15-1.fc8 > gstreamer-plugins-ugly-0.10.6-5.lvn8 > gstreamer-plugins-good-0.10.6-7.fc8 > gstreamer-python-0.10.8-2.fc8 > gstreamer-plugins-pulse-0.9.5-0.4.svn20070924.fc8 > gstreamer-ffmpeg-0.10.3-1.lvn8 > gstreamer-devel-0.10.15-1.fc8 > gstreamer-plugins-base-devel-0.10.15-1.fc8 > > Hope this helps you fix your problems. Also, I don't use the proprietary > plugin, so swfdec is the only plugin installed that can handle flash. > > Martin > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > I just updated rawhide with latest updates and rebooted, and now it works. I'll test it a bit more and then report back. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 02:38:20 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 03:38:20 +0100 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801261740o5b0c0936nbd59608b546c523b@mail.gmail.com> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <479B7B45.4060300@gmail.com> <1201372921.14188.17.camel@nixon> <64b14b300801261121v6482ffc6n44f43a175f1fe96a@mail.gmail.com> <1201392871.7165.54.camel@pc-notebook> <64b14b300801261740o5b0c0936nbd59608b546c523b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300801261838l321c84ffy25123eb2c2f4eefc@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 27, 2008 2:40 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > 2008/1/27 Martin Sourada : > > > > > > > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 20:21 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > 2008/1/26 Brian Pepple : > > > > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 19:26 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I removed macromedia flash plugin and then installed swfdec and > > > > > gstreamer-ffmpeg (both from livna) and under Fedora 8 nothing works, not > > > > > even the audio. I saw that swfdec in F8 is 0.5.3 and in rawhide its > > > > > 0.5.5 so maybe this is too old version... > > > > > > > > That swfdec for F8 your using is from livna I'm assuming, which doesn't > > > > have pulse audio or gstreamer support enabled. > > > > > > > > Later, > > > > /B > > > > > > Yes from livna. But one in Rawhide should work? As I said on swfdec > > > mailing list it still doesn't work in rawhide even after installing > > > all gstreamer plugins and gstreamer-ffmpeg > > > > > > Am I missing something? > > > > > > On Fedora 8 I tried also coping > > > /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/libswfdecmozilla.so from rawhide to fedora 8, > > > just to see if it will work :) > > > It didn't :) > > > > > > Valent. > > > > > > -- > > > http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ > > > linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless > > > registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. > > > ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic > > > > > > > Dunno whats wrong with your config, but for me under F8 its working > > flawlessly after I updated swfdec to rawhide version (the previous > > worked as well, only without audio and some videos, mostly those from > > youtube but accessed from elsewhere, didn't work). > > > > Here's what I've got (you can safely ignore the *-devel packages): > > $ rpm -qa | grep swfdec > > swfdec-mozilla-0.5.5-2.fc9 > > swfdec-gtk-0.5.5-2.fc9 > > swfdec-0.5.5-2.fc9 > > > > $ rpm -qa | grep gstreamer > > gstreamer-0.10.15-1.fc8 > > gstreamer-plugins-bad-0.10.5-12.lvn8 > > gstreamer-tools-0.10.15-1.fc8 > > gstreamer-plugins-base-0.10.15-1.fc8 > > gstreamer-plugins-ugly-0.10.6-5.lvn8 > > gstreamer-plugins-good-0.10.6-7.fc8 > > gstreamer-python-0.10.8-2.fc8 > > gstreamer-plugins-pulse-0.9.5-0.4.svn20070924.fc8 > > gstreamer-ffmpeg-0.10.3-1.lvn8 > > gstreamer-devel-0.10.15-1.fc8 > > gstreamer-plugins-base-devel-0.10.15-1.fc8 > > > > Hope this helps you fix your problems. Also, I don't use the proprietary > > plugin, so swfdec is the only plugin installed that can handle flash. > > > > Martin > > > > -- > > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > > > I just updated rawhide with latest updates and rebooted, and now it works. > I'll test it a bit more and then report back. > > > Valent. Here is my report: http://www.fedoratv.com - looks like it will start but it doesn't, just shows "buffering" http://www.ted.com - front page isn't rendered correctly, individual videos just don't start http://www.youtube.com/ - you need to click on video in order to see controls but it works ok! http://www.blip.tv - frontpage video works but other videos I click I see totem plugin loading instead of swfdec http://video.google.com/ - audio plays with black video screen http://www.redtube.com NSFW - videos don't play (looks also like buffering) http://www.metacafe.com - videos play but are wrong dimension, sometimes with full width but only 2 pixels high?!? http://www.videojug.com - totem plugin starts instead of swfdec ?!? http://sclipo.com/ - doesn't work http://www.dailymotion.com - works great http://crackle.com - after click nothing happens, not even video player controls show up http://www.revver.com - video plays but video is smaller that it should be http://www.veoh.com/ - video plays but "loading" message that shows buffering stays overlayed over the video the whole time http://video.msn.com - doesn't play video -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From bnocera at redhat.com Sun Jan 27 23:24:36 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:24:36 +0000 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801261838l321c84ffy25123eb2c2f4eefc@mail.gmail.com> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <1201358992.2389.44.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <479B7B45.4060300@gmail.com> <1201372921.14188.17.camel@nixon> <64b14b300801261121v6482ffc6n44f43a175f1fe96a@mail.gmail.com> <1201392871.7165.54.camel@pc-notebook> <64b14b300801261740o5b0c0936nbd59608b546c523b@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801261838l321c84ffy25123eb2c2f4eefc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201476276.2389.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Sun, 2008-01-27 at 03:38 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Here is my report: > > http://www.blip.tv - frontpage video works but other videos I click I > see totem plugin loading instead of swfdec > http://www.videojug.com - totem plugin starts instead of swfdec ?!? This means that the web page asked for a mime-type handled by Totem, rather than to be handled by whatever Flash plugin you're using. File bugs if you think that's shouldn't be the case, along with a full URL. All the videos I tried on those sites are handled correctly by the Flash plugin, and not by Totem. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 23:35:20 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:35:20 +0100 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <1201476276.2389.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <479B7B45.4060300@gmail.com> <1201372921.14188.17.camel@nixon> <64b14b300801261121v6482ffc6n44f43a175f1fe96a@mail.gmail.com> <1201392871.7165.54.camel@pc-notebook> <64b14b300801261740o5b0c0936nbd59608b546c523b@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801261838l321c84ffy25123eb2c2f4eefc@mail.gmail.com> <1201476276.2389.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <64b14b300801271535g722eb9d9vbf1857fbdd56ec7c@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 28, 2008 12:24 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Sun, 2008-01-27 at 03:38 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > Here is my report: > > > > > http://www.blip.tv - frontpage video works but other videos I click I > > see totem plugin loading instead of swfdec > > > http://www.videojug.com - totem plugin starts instead of swfdec ?!? > > This means that the web page asked for a mime-type handled by Totem, > rather than to be handled by whatever Flash plugin you're using. > > File bugs if you think that's shouldn't be the case, along with a full > URL. All the videos I tried on those sites are handled correctly by the > Flash plugin, and not by Totem. This seams random. I see the same video next time I start firefox 3 beta that it loads swfdec and not totem... strange. Should I file bugs for firefox3 or totem? -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From bnocera at redhat.com Mon Jan 28 09:45:54 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:45:54 +0000 Subject: Flash videos in Fedora 9 via swfdec or proprietary plugin? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801271535g722eb9d9vbf1857fbdd56ec7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <479B3E68.1040504@gmail.com> <479B527B.5020904@gmail.com> <1201366800.3282.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <479B7B45.4060300@gmail.com> <1201372921.14188.17.camel@nixon> <64b14b300801261121v6482ffc6n44f43a175f1fe96a@mail.gmail.com> <1201392871.7165.54.camel@pc-notebook> <64b14b300801261740o5b0c0936nbd59608b546c523b@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801261838l321c84ffy25123eb2c2f4eefc@mail.gmail.com> <1201476276.2389.68.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <64b14b300801271535g722eb9d9vbf1857fbdd56ec7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201513554.2389.84.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Mon, 2008-01-28 at 00:35 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Jan 28, 2008 12:24 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > On Sun, 2008-01-27 at 03:38 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > > Here is my report: > > > > > > > > http://www.blip.tv - frontpage video works but other videos I click I > > > see totem plugin loading instead of swfdec > > > > > http://www.videojug.com - totem plugin starts instead of swfdec ?!? > > > > This means that the web page asked for a mime-type handled by Totem, > > rather than to be handled by whatever Flash plugin you're using. > > > > File bugs if you think that's shouldn't be the case, along with a full > > URL. All the videos I tried on those sites are handled correctly by the > > Flash plugin, and not by Totem. > > This seams random. I see the same video next time I start firefox 3 > beta that it loads swfdec and not totem... strange. > Should I file bugs for firefox3 or totem? Include the URL and the source of the page and file bugs against Firefox. We'll see pretty quickly whether it's showing the right plugin. Cheers From mcepl at redhat.com Mon Jan 28 18:48:29 2008 From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:48:29 +0100 Subject: What should the desktop spin for F9 look like ? References: <1197867125.2962.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4799BAD0.3070507@gmail.com> <604aa7910801251227t13fd528s9ba0388dcdffc668@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2008-01-25, 20:27 GMT, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > 1) that we have a team of individuals ready to go as ops for > the channel before it goes live in a spin, with an effort to > get 24 hour coverage. These are the people with the authority > to step in and move things along if the conversation degrades. > > 2) Identify a "helper" role and a list of people who are filling that > role and provide best practices policy for how to help users coming in > with problems. This may or may not be the same as the ops role. The > point being these are the people who commit to "helpdesk hours" in a > public way. If someone comes in at a certain time, they should be able > to check and see if a helper is manning the helpdesk. Mutual aid > between users is a very useful thing, but having someone there who is > committed to setting an example on how to work through problems with > other people goes along way towards keeping things pleasant and > constructive. Either of these would be OK with me -- being a bugmaster for the desktop team, I think I could extend my role to this easily. Of course, I could swear only to be present in working hours (CET). Mat?j From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 22:10:50 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:10:50 +0100 Subject: Mozilla Prism in Fedora? Message-ID: <64b14b300801281410g8810f2dhb4844169fe7a3ac1@mail.gmail.com> I really like gmail as webmail app. And running it in Prism is even better that running it in full browser because you get full screen for gmail and a separate window - that also helps. If you are like me you have 40 tabs open and you constantly searching in which is your email :) Have you heard of Mozilla Prism[1]? I believe that this app would be a great addition to Fedora Desktop. Only thing missing for Prism are Firefox extensiona; Better Gmail[4] plugin in Prism would make me jump with joy :) So please tell me if you find out if it is possible to install firefox extensions in Prism. Download[2] Prism and check it out. Cheers, Valent. [1] http://labs.mozilla.com/2007/10/prism/ [2] http://wiki.mozilla.org/Prism#Latest_version [3] http://www.linux.com/feature/118170 [4] http://lifehacker.com/software/exclusive-lifehacker-download/better-gmail-2-firefox-extension-for-new-gmail-320618.php -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 23:03:24 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:03:24 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1200071522.2829.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200071522.2829.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <64b14b300801281503if839ed3mbb6c8c022af42142@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 11, 2008 6:12 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 11:45 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > > default starting with F9. > > > > (1) > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/devel-announce-list/2008-January/msg00001.html > > swfdec-gnome sounds vastly less important/interesting than > swfdec-mozilla. > > If it works well enough, I don't see any problem with installing it by > default. The last time I tried swfdec (shortly after it moved over from > livna), sound didn't really work at all for me. If we ship Fedora 9 with swfdec plugin for Firefox then Firefox will see that it has the plugin but it still won't play fedoratv.com or youtube.com videos since Fedora can't ship gstreamer-ffmped needed for playback if I understand it correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 23:09:34 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:09:34 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> Message-ID: <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> 2008/1/12 Brian Pepple : > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 22:38 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 11:45 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote: > > > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > > > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > > > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > > > default starting with F9. > > > > People will go to YouTube, DailyMotion and plenty of other places, and > > it won't work because the plugin needs to implement GStreamer's missing > > plugins. Then missing plugins will be automatically installed > > (hopefully). > > Yeah, Codeina support (much like totem or rhythmbox has) would need to > be added. > > Later, Is this legal? I asked not long ago and it was still illegal for Fedora to even link to codecs. Has this changed and I haven't noticed, I really hope so! Fedora needs to be able to atleast link to outside sources for codecs... afcourse if it is legal to do so. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 23:12:17 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:12:17 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <64b14b300801281512h16487e0ax2fb247d9963e3df1@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 11, 2008 11:38 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 11:45 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > > default starting with F9. > > People will go to YouTube, DailyMotion and plenty of other places, and > it won't work because the plugin needs to implement GStreamer's missing > plugins. Then missing plugins will be automatically installed > (hopefully). Even with installed plugins most sites don't work. Youtube works but that is it. You can read my report about swfdec in my previous posts for more details. fedoratv.com wasn't working yesterday with swfdec when I tried it :( Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 23:29:22 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:29:22 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> Message-ID: <64b14b300801281529s7dc3340ane0a6688d89046dd3@mail.gmail.com> 2008/1/11 Brian Pepple : > Hi all, > > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > default starting with F9. > > (1) > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/devel-announce-list/2008-January/msg00001.html > Why not fix this bug[1]? My experience with swfdec is great! I really love that we have an option to watch online videos (there other things beside porn, believe it or not) and not use proprietary plugins for that. I have tested it and you can see my posts[2][3] that it works really porely on most sites. It works on youtube.com and that is about it. It doensn't even work with www.fedoratv.com :( >From users point of view this would be a mixed bag. If fedora makes some how to include all the codecs needed for swfdec to work even then only youtube is not something that will make users who want things to JustWork happy. It would be bad to "force" users to use swfdec if it works porly and not give them some easy way to switch it to propritary one if they find this one not working for them. I see that as a problem because if firefox has something that says can play flash it is happy - it doens't care that it actually does nothing (like swfdec without codecs). Any ideas? And it would be really nice if the bug from the beginning gets fixed :) Cheers, Valent. [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=242175 [2] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-January/msg00095.html [3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-January/msg00106.html -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 02:37:56 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:37:56 -0900 Subject: What should the desktop spin for F9 look like ? In-Reply-To: References: <1197867125.2962.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4799BAD0.3070507@gmail.com> <604aa7910801251227t13fd528s9ba0388dcdffc668@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910801281837r61e22b0fj44f3ae178b886b97@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 28, 2008 9:48 AM, Matej Cepl wrote: > Either of these would be OK with me -- being a bugmaster for the > desktop team, I think I could extend my role to this easily. Of > course, I could swear only to be present in working hours (CET). We all do what we can. I just want a system so I and everyone else, can see who's committed to doing what, so we can start getting a sense of what contribution means beyond maintaining a package. Helping other users is part of that, but we don't really 'see' it or recognize it, at the project level. I think its time to do that. For example, #fedora could be a lot better than what it is, if we organized help just a weebit. Office hours in a help channel, is a small thing, but makes a lot of sense. And if we can have a helper or two attached to every SIG, so we can carve out some common tasking across all SIGs, then maybe having an office hour or two in the irc channel could be one of those things. Organizing a group of helpers I don't think will be very hard, we don't need 24 hour coverage, having holes in the schedule encourages new people to step up. But if we are going to do it, then we need to have the bits in place... UI which whisks people to an irc channel, and works with livecd images. So the UI pretty much has to ask for an irc nick to use..unique default username can't be assumed for livecd scenarios. Do we have someone we can do the technical bits and make the push for help button happen? That person isn't me. If someone can commit to making that button happen, I'll organize the initial helpdesk members and ops for a new channel (or perhaps I'll clean up #fedora.. which would involve allowing non registered users) -jef From notting at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 03:53:56 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:53:56 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit Message-ID: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Here's a diff to the livecd config that makes the i386 livecd fit in brief testing. The biggest reason why the desktop one keeps flowing over is because it tries to include support for all languages, including input method. What these changes do is: - don't include groups where upstream gnome is < 50% translated - don't include fonts that are only referenced in %fonts and those groups - remove ekiga, just because it drags in so much other stuff Comments? Bill From notting at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 03:54:20 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:54:20 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Bill Nottingham (notting at redhat.com) said: > Here's a diff to the livecd config that makes the i386 livecd fit > in brief testing. The biggest reason why the desktop one keeps flowing > over is because it tries to include support for all languages, including > input method. > > What these changes do is: > > - don't include groups where upstream gnome is < 50% translated > - don't include fonts that are only referenced in %fonts and those groups > - remove ekiga, just because it drags in so much other stuff > > Comments? ... and, the diff. Bill -------------- next part -------------- diff --git a/config/livecd-fedora-desktop.ks b/config/livecd-fedora-desktop.ks index 88a739c..58052b1 100644 --- a/config/livecd-fedora-desktop.ks +++ b/config/livecd-fedora-desktop.ks @@ -18,33 +18,33 @@ gnome-blog #planner #inkscape - at afrikaans-support +#@afrikaans-support @albanian-support @arabic-support - at armenian-support - at assamese-support +#@armenian-support +#@assamese-support @basque-support - at belarusian-support +#@belarusian-support @bengali-support - at bhutanese-support - at bosnian-support +#@bhutanese-support +#@bosnian-support @brazilian-support - at breton-support +#@breton-support @british-support @bulgarian-support @catalan-support @chinese-support - at croatian-support +#@croatian-support @czech-support @danish-support @dutch-support @estonian-support - at ethiopic-support - at faeroese-support - at filipino-support +#@ethiopic-support +#@faeroese-support +#@filipino-support @finnish-support @french-support - at gaelic-support +#@gaelic-support @galician-support @georgian-support @german-support @@ -53,23 +53,23 @@ gnome-blog @hebrew-support @hindi-support @hungarian-support - at icelandic-support +#@icelandic-support @indonesian-support - at inuktitut-support - at irish-support +#@inuktitut-support +#@irish-support @italian-support @japanese-support - at kannada-support +#@kannada-support @khmer-support @korean-support - at lao-support +#@lao-support @latvian-support @lithuanian-support - at malay-support +#@malay-support @malayalam-support - at maori-support +#@maori-support @marathi-support - at northern-sotho-support +#@northern-sotho-support @norwegian-support @oriya-support @persian-support @@ -78,33 +78,33 @@ gnome-blog @punjabi-support @romanian-support @russian-support - at samoan-support +#@samoan-support @serbian-support - at sinhala-support +#@sinhala-support @slovak-support @slovenian-support - at somali-support - at southern-ndebele-support - at southern-sotho-support +#@somali-support +#@southern-ndebele-support +#@southern-sotho-support @spanish-support - at swati-support +#@swati-support @swedish-support - at tagalog-support +#@tagalog-support @tamil-support @telugu-support @thai-support - at tibetan-support - at tonga-support - at tsonga-support - at tswana-support +#@tibetan-support +#@tonga-support +#@tsonga-support +#@tswana-support @turkish-support @ukrainian-support - at urdu-support - at venda-support +#@urdu-support +#@venda-support @vietnamese-support @welsh-support - at xhosa-support - at zulu-support +#@xhosa-support +#@zulu-support # dictionaries are big -aspell-* @@ -126,6 +126,11 @@ scim-pinyin -nss_db -vino -dasher +-ekiga +-lklug-fonts +-lohit-fonts-kannada +-abyssinica-fonts +-jomolhari-fonts %end From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 04:07:43 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:07:43 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-01-28 at 22:54 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Bill Nottingham (notting at redhat.com) said: > > Here's a diff to the livecd config that makes the i386 livecd fit > > in brief testing. The biggest reason why the desktop one keeps flowing > > over is because it tries to include support for all languages, including > > input method. > > > > What these changes do is: > > > > - don't include groups where upstream gnome is < 50% translated > > - don't include fonts that are only referenced in %fonts and those groups > > - remove ekiga, just because it drags in so much other stuff > > > > Comments? In the past, any attempts to go to a subset of language have always met with strong resistance. Just kicking out some fonts/input methods, but leaving the "unsupported" translations in the packages may send a somewhat mixed message, but is probably the only thing we can do since noone knows how to make %_install_langs work. Anyway, if we go with this approach, there should be at least a comment in the kickstart file explaining how the excluded font groups have been determined. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 06:30:25 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:30:25 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801281529s7dc3340ane0a6688d89046dd3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <64b14b300801281529s7dc3340ane0a6688d89046dd3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300801282230mab08292y72a4d046e582fae6@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2008 12:29 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > 2008/1/11 Brian Pepple : > > Hi all, > > > > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > > default starting with F9. > > > > (1) > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/devel-announce-list/2008-January/msg00001.html > > > > Why not fix this bug[1]? > My experience with swfdec is great! I really love that we have an > option to watch online videos (there other things beside porn, believe > it or not) and not use proprietary plugins for that. I have tested it > and you can see my posts[2][3] that it works really porely on most > sites. It works on youtube.com and that is about it. It doensn't even > work with www.fedoratv.com :( > > From users point of view this would be a mixed bag. If fedora makes > some how to include all the codecs needed for swfdec to work even then > only youtube is not something that will make users who want things to > JustWork happy. > It would be bad to "force" users to use swfdec if it works porly and > not give them some easy way to switch it to propritary one if they > find this one not working for them. I see that as a problem because if > firefox has something that says can play flash it is happy - it > doens't care that it actually does nothing (like swfdec without > codecs). Any ideas? > And it would be really nice if the bug from the beginning gets fixed :) > > Cheers, > Valent. > > [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=242175 > [2] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-January/msg00095.html > [3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-January/msg00106.html Here is the bz for this issue; https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=430629 -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From nphilipp at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 13:01:48 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:01:48 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 00:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > 2008/1/12 Brian Pepple : > > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 22:38 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 11:45 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote: > > > > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > > > > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > > > > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > > > > default starting with F9. > > > > > > People will go to YouTube, DailyMotion and plenty of other places, and > > > it won't work because the plugin needs to implement GStreamer's missing > > > plugins. Then missing plugins will be automatically installed > > > (hopefully). > > > > Yeah, Codeina support (much like totem or rhythmbox has) would need to > > be added. > > > > Later, > > Is this legal? I asked not long ago and it was still illegal for > Fedora to even link to codecs. Has this changed and I haven't noticed, > I really hope so! Fedora needs to be able to atleast link to outside > sources for codecs... afcourse if it is legal to do so. Last time I looked, codeina linked to the proprietary codecs from Fluendo which have the appropriate licenses. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From robi.petranovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 13:08:51 2008 From: robi.petranovic at gmail.com (Robi) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:08:51 +0100 Subject: Need help creating account. Message-ID: I need help. I've been doing everything like in directions, but it constantly give me this error when I'm trying to sign the CLA (Fedora Individual Contributor License Agreement): With regards to "Re: Fedora Individual Contributor License Agreement". Your message could not be processed. Reason: The signature could not be processed. The signature may have been created or attached improperly, it might not match the key ID you have registered in the Account System, or the public key may not have been found on the key server. For guidance, please see the following page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem/CLAHowTo I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Please help! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 13:47:57 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:47:57 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2008 2:01 PM, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 00:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > 2008/1/12 Brian Pepple : > > > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 22:38 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 11:45 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote: > > > > > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > > > > > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > > > > > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > > > > > default starting with F9. > > > > > > > > People will go to YouTube, DailyMotion and plenty of other places, and > > > > it won't work because the plugin needs to implement GStreamer's missing > > > > plugins. Then missing plugins will be automatically installed > > > > (hopefully). > > > > > > Yeah, Codeina support (much like totem or rhythmbox has) would need to > > > be added. > > > > > > Later, > > > > Is this legal? I asked not long ago and it was still illegal for > > Fedora to even link to codecs. Has this changed and I haven't noticed, > > I really hope so! Fedora needs to be able to atleast link to outside > > sources for codecs... afcourse if it is legal to do so. > > Last time I looked, codeina linked to the proprietary codecs from > Fluendo which have the appropriate licenses. > > Nils Sorry, my missunderstanding. I thought that gstreamer-ffmpeg can't be included in fedora as that is what swfdec uses now... but why is then in livna and not in fedora repos? Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From martin.sourada at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 13:57:39 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:57:39 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201615060.14683.8.camel@pc-notebook> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 14:47 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Sorry, my missunderstanding. I thought that gstreamer-ffmpeg can't be > included in fedora as that is what swfdec uses now... but why is then > in livna and not in fedora repos? > > Valent. > AFAIK gstreamer-ffmpeg is not 100% legal in some countries (e.g. USA), while the codecs obtained from fluendo via codeina are legal everywhere. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 13:59:54 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:59:54 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201615194.2793.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 14:47 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Sorry, my missunderstanding. I thought that gstreamer-ffmpeg can't be > included in fedora as that is what swfdec uses now... but why is then > in livna and not in fedora repos? > No, you are right that ffmpeg is not suitable for Fedora, and gstreamer-ffmpeg is what is needed to make swfdec play flash videos. Still, adding codeina support to swfdec would be useful for audio codecs. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 14:02:15 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:02:15 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1201615060.14683.8.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> <1201615060.14683.8.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <64b14b300801290602v7408e67ao73cac0777a9705b5@mail.gmail.com> 2008/1/29 Martin Sourada : > > On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 14:47 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Sorry, my missunderstanding. I thought that gstreamer-ffmpeg can't be > > included in fedora as that is what swfdec uses now... but why is then > > in livna and not in fedora repos? > > > > Valent. > > > AFAIK gstreamer-ffmpeg is not 100% legal in some countries (e.g. USA), > while the codecs obtained from fluendo via codeina are legal everywhere. I was told that I need to install gstreamer-ffmpeg in order to view flash video via swfdec, have I been miss informed? Or is there some option to use gstreamer-ffmpeg or just fluendo codecs without gstreamer-ffmpeg? Can somebody clarify that? Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 14:08:18 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:08:18 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1201615194.2793.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> <1201615194.2793.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <64b14b300801290608g3c69aa6bi96cffc0023d88449@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2008 2:59 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 14:47 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > Sorry, my missunderstanding. I thought that gstreamer-ffmpeg can't be > > included in fedora as that is what swfdec uses now... but why is then > > in livna and not in fedora repos? > > > > No, you are right that ffmpeg is not suitable for Fedora, and > gstreamer-ffmpeg is what is needed to make swfdec play flash videos. > > Still, adding codeina support to swfdec would be useful for audio > codecs. That clarifies a bit. So in other words this would not play youtube. Firefox would not suggest installing proprietary codecs as it would see flash plugin installed (firefox doesn't check if it actually plays video) and it will be happy with that. IMHO this will lead to lot of users calling firefox and/or fedora broken as legal restrictions posed on fedora will make this flash playback feature broken by design if users expect or want something more that just flash adds which work without codecs. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 14:12:06 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:12:06 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801290608g3c69aa6bi96cffc0023d88449@mail.gmail.com> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> <1201615194.2793.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300801290608g3c69aa6bi96cffc0023d88449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201615926.2793.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 15:08 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > That clarifies a bit. So in other words this would not play youtube. > Firefox would not suggest installing proprietary codecs as it would > see flash plugin installed (firefox doesn't check if it actually plays > video) and it will be happy with that. > > IMHO this will lead to lot of users calling firefox and/or fedora > broken as legal restrictions posed on fedora will make this flash > playback feature broken by design if users expect or want something > more that just flash adds which work without codecs. While I agree that the situation wrt to flash video is a sad one, swfdec is not 'just for ads'. A lot of flash games work fine with it. From detonated at o2.pl Tue Jan 29 14:14:12 2008 From: detonated at o2.pl (=?UTF-8?Q?a3ukasz_Peb3szynski?=) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:14:12 +0100 Subject: swfdec in fedora Message-ID: <60c18435.937c2a9.479f34b4.14d02@o2.pl> Hello, I think fedora should provide good and reliable software. Swfdec isn't working properly with most sites. It should be included as optional package - just as it is now. That mess with american law is stupid. American law sucks - and mostly patents for algorithms. See you! From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 14:27:14 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:27:14 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <1201615926.2793.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> <1201615194.2793.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300801290608g3c69aa6bi96cffc0023d88449@mail.gmail.com> <1201615926.2793.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <64b14b300801290627w44bb8bc6oea86366c637ec2db@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2008 3:12 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 15:08 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > That clarifies a bit. So in other words this would not play youtube. > > Firefox would not suggest installing proprietary codecs as it would > > see flash plugin installed (firefox doesn't check if it actually plays > > video) and it will be happy with that. > > > > IMHO this will lead to lot of users calling firefox and/or fedora > > broken as legal restrictions posed on fedora will make this flash > > playback feature broken by design if users expect or want something > > more that just flash adds which work without codecs. > > While I agree that the situation wrt to flash video is a sad one, swfdec > is not 'just for ads'. A lot of flash games work fine with it. I haven't tested this so I can't confirm, but what games have you tested? I don't play flash games so I'm not the one to ask how many games on average work or don't work with swfdec but I can look at it if you know of some popular flash gaming urls. I know that I can google it but I'm not sure if the ones google finds are the one that people actually use the most... -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 14:46:41 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:46:41 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801282230mab08292y72a4d046e582fae6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <64b14b300801281529s7dc3340ane0a6688d89046dd3@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801282230mab08292y72a4d046e582fae6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300801290646l6a121221y85575cfc48a8d7b4@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2008 7:30 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > On Jan 29, 2008 12:29 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > 2008/1/11 Brian Pepple : > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Currently, we don't install any free flash implementations by default, > > > but now that swfdec-gnome has become part of GNOME(1), I would like to > > > propose that we install swfdec-gnome (& possibly swfdec-mozilla) by > > > default starting with F9. > > > > > > (1) > > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/devel-announce-list/2008-January/msg00001.html > > > > > > > Why not fix this bug[1]? > > My experience with swfdec is great! I really love that we have an > > option to watch online videos (there other things beside porn, believe > > it or not) and not use proprietary plugins for that. I have tested it > > and you can see my posts[2][3] that it works really porely on most > > sites. It works on youtube.com and that is about it. It doensn't even > > work with www.fedoratv.com :( > > > > From users point of view this would be a mixed bag. If fedora makes > > some how to include all the codecs needed for swfdec to work even then > > only youtube is not something that will make users who want things to > > JustWork happy. > > It would be bad to "force" users to use swfdec if it works porly and > > not give them some easy way to switch it to propritary one if they > > find this one not working for them. I see that as a problem because if > > firefox has something that says can play flash it is happy - it > > doens't care that it actually does nothing (like swfdec without > > codecs). Any ideas? > > And it would be really nice if the bug from the beginning gets fixed :) > > > > Cheers, > > Valent. > > > > [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=242175 > > [2] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-January/msg00095.html > > [3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-January/msg00106.html > > Here is the bz for this issue; > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=430629 I have just tested the Firefox 3 in rawhide and I see the same behavior as with Firefox 2 so I'm reopening this bug[1]. Can somebody please look at it? [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=236881 -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jan 29 15:35:35 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:05:35 +0530 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801290627w44bb8bc6oea86366c637ec2db@mail.gmail.com> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200091132.6584.235.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> <1201615194.2793.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300801290608g3c69aa6bi96cffc0023d88449@mail.gmail.com> <1201615926.2793.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300801290627w44bb8bc6oea86366c637ec2db@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479F47C7.9030700@fedoraproject.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I haven't tested this so I can't confirm, but what games have you > tested? I don't play flash games so I'm not the one to ask how many > games on average work or don't work with swfdec but I can look at it > if you know of some popular flash gaming urls. I know that I can > google it but I'm not sure if the ones google finds are the one that > people actually use the most... http://swfdec.freedesktop.org/wiki/ScreenShots Rahul From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 15:30:38 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:30:38 +0100 Subject: Need help creating account. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64b14b300801290730o15724f21r4294d94d29482a51@mail.gmail.com> 2008/1/29 Robi : > I need help. I've been doing everything like in directions, but it > constantly give me this error when I'm trying to sign the CLA (Fedora > Individual Contributor License Agreement): > > With regards to "Re: Fedora Individual Contributor License Agreement". > > Your message could not be processed. > > Reason: > > The signature could not be processed. The signature may have been created > or attached improperly, it might not match the key ID you have registered in > the Account System, or the public key may not have been found on the key > server. For guidance, please see the following page: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem/CLAHowTo > > > I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Please help! You haven't uploaded your gpg key to gpg server, I know because I did the same thing :) The instructions are really a bit unclear because you need to click on second "example"[1] link and the main page doesn't say that. You need to list your keys with: gpg --list-keys and then see your key and upload it: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --send-keys E982C57F off course change "E982C57F" for your key. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jan 29 15:39:23 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:09:23 +0530 Subject: swfdec in fedora In-Reply-To: <60c18435.937c2a9.479f34b4.14d02@o2.pl> References: <60c18435.937c2a9.479f34b4.14d02@o2.pl> Message-ID: <479F48AB.8050905@fedoraproject.org> a3ukasz Peb3szynski wrote: > Hello, > > I think fedora should provide good and reliable software. > Swfdec isn't working properly with most sites. > It should be included as optional package - just as it is now. This is the case for general releases. The goal of the development releases is to test more free software. If there are flash sites that don't work well with swfdec (after installing plugins), file bug reports. > That mess with american law is stupid. > American law sucks - and mostly patents for algorithms. > See you! Software patents are not merely a U.S problem but increasingly a global issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent Rahul From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 15:37:54 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:37:54 +0100 Subject: Need help creating account. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801290730o15724f21r4294d94d29482a51@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300801290730o15724f21r4294d94d29482a51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300801290737n5ad3fb90mc8e2c9daa84e8cba@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2008 4:30 PM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > 2008/1/29 Robi : > > > I need help. I've been doing everything like in directions, but it > > constantly give me this error when I'm trying to sign the CLA (Fedora > > Individual Contributor License Agreement): > > > > With regards to "Re: Fedora Individual Contributor License Agreement". > > > > Your message could not be processed. > > > > Reason: > > > > The signature could not be processed. The signature may have been created > > or attached improperly, it might not match the key ID you have registered in > > the Account System, or the public key may not have been found on the key > > server. For guidance, please see the following page: > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem/CLAHowTo > > > > > > I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Please help! > > You haven't uploaded your gpg key to gpg server, I know because I did > the same thing :) The instructions are really a bit unclear because > you need to click on second "example"[1] link and the main page > doesn't say that. > > You need to list your keys with: > gpg --list-keys > > and then see your key and upload it: > > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --send-keys E982C57F > > off course change "E982C57F" for your key. I have edited wiki so please check out does it make more sense to you: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem/CLAHowTo Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 15:40:07 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:40:07 +0100 Subject: swfdec in fedora In-Reply-To: <479F48AB.8050905@fedoraproject.org> References: <60c18435.937c2a9.479f34b4.14d02@o2.pl> <479F48AB.8050905@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <64b14b300801290740t45e2c7c6ld6b8969e141cc131@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2008 4:39 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > a3ukasz Peb3szynski wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I think fedora should provide good and reliable software. > > Swfdec isn't working properly with most sites. > > It should be included as optional package - just as it is now. > > This is the case for general releases. The goal of the development > releases is to test more free software. If there are flash sites that > don't work well with swfdec (after installing plugins), file bug reports. > > > That mess with american law is stupid. > > American law sucks - and mostly patents for algorithms. > > See you! > > Software patents are not merely a U.S problem but increasingly a global > issue. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent > > Rahul AFAIK lots of European countries have explicitly said no to software patents. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 15:43:21 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:43:21 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <479F47C7.9030700@fedoraproject.org> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> <1201615194.2793.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300801290608g3c69aa6bi96cffc0023d88449@mail.gmail.com> <1201615926.2793.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300801290627w44bb8bc6oea86366c637ec2db@mail.gmail.com> <479F47C7.9030700@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <64b14b300801290743x2f057a61pef7e9240b0225de5@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2008 4:35 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > I haven't tested this so I can't confirm, but what games have you > > tested? I don't play flash games so I'm not the one to ask how many > > games on average work or don't work with swfdec but I can look at it > > if you know of some popular flash gaming urls. I know that I can > > google it but I'm not sure if the ones google finds are the one that > > people actually use the most... > > http://swfdec.freedesktop.org/wiki/ScreenShots > > Rahul Thanks Rahul for the link, I saw if before and it is not the answer to my post if you read it carefully. That is exactly why I asked the in the previous posts to test games that are actually popular and people use them, and not find some odd games that nobody plays and post screenshots of them working. I'm not the authority on flash games because I don't play them and have no interest in them but still my point stays. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 15:45:05 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:45:05 +0100 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801290743x2f057a61pef7e9240b0225de5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> <1201615194.2793.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300801290608g3c69aa6bi96cffc0023d88449@mail.gmail.com> <1201615926.2793.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300801290627w44bb8bc6oea86366c637ec2db@mail.gmail.com> <479F47C7.9030700@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300801290743x2f057a61pef7e9240b0225de5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300801290745r5ce49ceducda4870b04b044b4@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2008 4:43 PM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Jan 29, 2008 4:35 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > > > I haven't tested this so I can't confirm, but what games have you > > > tested? I don't play flash games so I'm not the one to ask how many > > > games on average work or don't work with swfdec but I can look at it > > > if you know of some popular flash gaming urls. I know that I can > > > google it but I'm not sure if the ones google finds are the one that > > > people actually use the most... > > > > http://swfdec.freedesktop.org/wiki/ScreenShots > > > > Rahul > > Thanks Rahul for the link, I saw if before and it is not the answer to > my post if you read it carefully. > > That is exactly why I asked the in the previous posts to test games > that are actually popular and people use them, and not find some odd > games that nobody plays and post screenshots of them working. > > I'm not the authority on flash games because I don't play them and > have no interest in them but still my point stays. > > Valent. ps. I can of course be very wrong and that all games work with swfdec or 99% of games work, or the most important and most played games work with swfdec or that only those on screenshots work and not one more... that is what I wanted to say. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jan 29 15:56:15 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:26:15 +0530 Subject: swfdec in fedora In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801290740t45e2c7c6ld6b8969e141cc131@mail.gmail.com> References: <60c18435.937c2a9.479f34b4.14d02@o2.pl> <479F48AB.8050905@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300801290740t45e2c7c6ld6b8969e141cc131@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479F4C9F.10209@fedoraproject.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent >> > > AFAIK lots of European countries have explicitly said no to software patents. Read the link. Even when explicit patents to software are not accepted, software related ideas can be patented in many places. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jan 29 15:59:41 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:29:41 +0530 Subject: Proposal: Install swfdec by default. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801290743x2f057a61pef7e9240b0225de5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1200069905.10694.9.camel@nixon> <1200162547.24909.7.camel@kennedy> <64b14b300801281509w714d8654neff43faa5aa0682d@mail.gmail.com> <1201611708.2362.13.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <64b14b300801290547x1706686cx34ba49c2e57ed959@mail.gmail.com> <1201615194.2793.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300801290608g3c69aa6bi96cffc0023d88449@mail.gmail.com> <1201615926.2793.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300801290627w44bb8bc6oea86366c637ec2db@mail.gmail.com> <479F47C7.9030700@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300801290743x2f057a61pef7e9240b0225de5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479F4D6D.9000604@fedoraproject.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Thanks Rahul for the link, I saw if before and it is not the answer to > my post if you read it carefully. I did. > That is exactly why I asked the in the previous posts to test games > that are actually popular and people use them, and not find some odd > games that nobody plays and post screenshots of them working. Some of these are popular. You wouldn't know if you don't play flash games. Rahul Ps: You should avoid replying to your own messages often. From notting at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 16:59:54 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:59:54 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080129165954.GA27288@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) said: > > > - don't include groups where upstream gnome is < 50% translated > > > - don't include fonts that are only referenced in %fonts and those groups > > > - remove ekiga, just because it drags in so much other stuff > > > > > > Comments? > > In the past, any attempts to go to a subset of language have always met > with strong resistance. Just kicking out some fonts/input methods, but > leaving the "unsupported" translations in the packages may send a > somewhat mixed message, but is probably the only thing we can do since > noone knows how to make %_install_langs work. Yeah, I'm just wondering if it's worth it installing fonts for a language that's only 10% translated in the desktop (for example.) > Anyway, if we go with this approach, there should be at least a comment > in the kickstart file explaining how the excluded font groups have been > determined. The alternative is to still kick out ekiga (sorry, it's pretty large), and find the rest of the space somewhere else. Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 17:07:15 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:07:15 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080129165954.GA27288@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080129165954.GA27288@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1201626435.2793.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 11:59 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) said: > > > > - don't include groups where upstream gnome is < 50% translated > > > > - don't include fonts that are only referenced in %fonts and those groups > > > > - remove ekiga, just because it drags in so much other stuff > > > > > > > > Comments? > > > > In the past, any attempts to go to a subset of language have always met > > with strong resistance. Just kicking out some fonts/input methods, but > > leaving the "unsupported" translations in the packages may send a > > somewhat mixed message, but is probably the only thing we can do since > > noone knows how to make %_install_langs work. > > Yeah, I'm just wondering if it's worth it installing fonts for a > language that's only 10% translated in the desktop (for example.) > > > Anyway, if we go with this approach, there should be at least a comment > > in the kickstart file explaining how the excluded font groups have been > > determined. > > The alternative is to still kick out ekiga (sorry, it's pretty large), > and find the rest of the space somewhere else. > Kicking the debuginfo out of mono-core should give us on the order of 15M, I think: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=430500 But I am not opposed to do the font pruning. All I'm asking is that you add a comment explaining the rationale and where the data came from. From robi.petranovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 17:26:42 2008 From: robi.petranovic at gmail.com (Robi) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:26:42 +0100 Subject: Need help creating account. In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801290737n5ad3fb90mc8e2c9daa84e8cba@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300801290730o15724f21r4294d94d29482a51@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801290737n5ad3fb90mc8e2c9daa84e8cba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks!!!! On Jan 29, 2008 4:37 PM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Jan 29, 2008 4:30 PM, Valent Turkovic > wrote: > > 2008/1/29 Robi : > > > > > I need help. I've been doing everything like in directions, but it > > > constantly give me this error when I'm trying to sign the CLA (Fedora > > > Individual Contributor License Agreement): > > > > > > With regards to "Re: Fedora Individual Contributor License Agreement". > > > > > > Your message could not be processed. > > > > > > Reason: > > > > > > The signature could not be processed. The signature may have been > created > > > or attached improperly, it might not match the key ID you have > registered in > > > the Account System, or the public key may not have been found on the > key > > > server. For guidance, please see the following page: > > > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem/CLAHowTo > > > > > > > > > I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Please help! > > > > You haven't uploaded your gpg key to gpg server, I know because I did > > the same thing :) The instructions are really a bit unclear because > > you need to click on second "example"[1] link and the main page > > doesn't say that. > > > > You need to list your keys with: > > gpg --list-keys > > > > and then see your key and upload it: > > > > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --send-keys E982C57F > > > > off course change "E982C57F" for your key. > > I have edited wiki so please check out does it make more sense to you: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem/CLAHowTo > > Cheers, > Valent. > > -- > http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ > linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless > registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. > ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katzj at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 18:07:34 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:07:34 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <1201626435.2793.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080129165954.GA27288@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201626435.2793.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1201630054.6274.0.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 12:07 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 11:59 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Yeah, I'm just wondering if it's worth it installing fonts for a > > language that's only 10% translated in the desktop (for example.) > > > > > Anyway, if we go with this approach, there should be at least a comment > > > in the kickstart file explaining how the excluded font groups have been > > > determined. > > > But I am not opposed to do the font pruning. All I'm asking is that you > add a comment explaining the rationale and where the data came from. Seems sane (both removing the fonts and the comment). Thanks for tracking some stuff down Bill Jeremy From lmacken at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 18:30:40 2008 From: lmacken at redhat.com (Luke Macken) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:30:40 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080129183040.GM23022@crow> /usr/share/doc is 141mb, but I'm not sure how viable it would be to remove it (everything except the release notes). We could possibly split out the big guys into -docs subpackages. The largest documentation directories being: 5.1M ./bash-3.2 6.8M ./cups-1.3.5 8.1M ./ghostscript-8.61 9.4M ./selinux-policy-3.2.5 luke From notting at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 18:52:18 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:52:18 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080129183040.GM23022@crow> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129183040.GM23022@crow> Message-ID: <20080129185218.GA2136@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Luke Macken (lmacken at redhat.com) said: > /usr/share/doc is 141mb, but I'm not sure how viable it would be to > remove it (everything except the release notes). We could possibly split out > the big guys into -docs subpackages. > > The largest documentation directories being: > > 5.1M ./bash-3.2 > 6.8M ./cups-1.3.5 > 8.1M ./ghostscript-8.61 > 9.4M ./selinux-policy-3.2.5 While that's 30MB on disk, using bzip2 as an approximation, that would only save about 3.5MB of CD space. Still may be worth doing. Bill From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 19:24:42 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:24:42 -0900 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 28, 2008 7:07 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > In the past, any attempts to go to a subset of language have always met > with strong resistance. Here's the paradoxical reality of the situation. 1)The CD image is championed because DVD drives are not commonplace in some parts of the world yet (ie not US/Western Europe). plus 2)Holding all languages in the CD image makes it more difficult to include useful applcations for everybody. equals 3)The very people who need the CD image, are the people who also most likely need the additional language support. Here's is what I think we need to actual do. We need to build a process by which different language groups are encouraged to build and host their own CD spins, instead of continuing to shove everything into one CD image. How do we do this? How do we provide the correct balance of infrastructure and services such that community members will step up and produce and consume the localized CD spins? How much of the work can be automated with scripts which do nothing but pull one language group out and stick another one in so that localized versions of the same thing can be autogenerated? I don't have any answers to these questions, but I'm pretty sure these are the right questions to be asking instead of asking how do we fit multiple locales onto a single CD spin. -jef From dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org Tue Jan 29 21:37:41 2008 From: dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org (Douglas McClendon) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:37:41 -0600 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479F9CA5.3050906@filteredperception.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Jan 28, 2008 7:07 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> In the past, any attempts to go to a subset of language have always met >> with strong resistance. > > Here's the paradoxical reality of the situation. > > 1)The CD image is championed because DVD drives are not commonplace in > some parts of the world yet (ie not US/Western Europe). > > plus > > 2)Holding all languages in the CD image makes it more difficult to > include useful applcations for everybody. > > equals > > 3)The very people who need the CD image, are the people who also most > likely need the additional language support. > > > Here's is what I think we need to actual do. We need to build a > process by which different language groups are encouraged to build and > host their own CD spins, instead of continuing to shove everything > into one CD image. How do we do this? How do we provide the correct > balance of infrastructure and services such that community members > will step up and produce and consume the localized CD spins? How much > of the work can be automated with scripts which do nothing but pull > one language group out and stick another one in so that localized > versions of the same thing can be autogenerated? A: All of it. -dmc > > I don't have any answers to these questions, but I'm pretty sure these > are the right questions to be asking instead of asking how do we fit > multiple locales onto a single CD spin. > > -jef > From notting at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 21:40:34 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:40:34 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <479F9CA5.3050906@filteredperception.org> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <479F9CA5.3050906@filteredperception.org> Message-ID: <20080129214034.GA12642@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Douglas McClendon (dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org) said: > How much >> of the work can be automated with scripts which do nothing but pull >> one language group out and stick another one in so that localized >> versions of the same thing can be autogenerated? > > A: All of it. Not necessarily. Localized spins may want a different app set due to their localization status. Bill From dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org Tue Jan 29 22:16:57 2008 From: dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org (Douglas McClendon) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:16:57 -0600 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080129214034.GA12642@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <479F9CA5.3050906@filteredperception.org> <20080129214034.GA12642@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <479FA5D9.6080207@filteredperception.org> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Douglas McClendon (dmc.fedora at filteredperception.org) said: >> How much >>> of the work can be automated with scripts which do nothing but pull >>> one language group out and stick another one in so that localized >>> versions of the same thing can be autogenerated? >> A: All of it. > > Not necessarily. Localized spins may want a different app set due > to their localization status. Sure, I was just pointing out that you could easily script a first pass. Though my quick response was woefully disregarding the issue mirrors and hosting. Though if bittorrent is enough... -dmc From juankprada at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 22:43:09 2008 From: juankprada at gmail.com (Luis Alfredo Prada) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:43:09 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <479F9CA5.3050906@filteredperception.org> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <479F9CA5.3050906@filteredperception.org> Message-ID: <1201646589.3464.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Maybe im ill be taking this discussion on another direction, but its my opinion. I've used Ubuntu and so its LiveCD installation. There you can select your language during the installation process and if you language isnt english then an aditiona step is added in the installation which is the 'downloading language support' or something like that. As ive also seen fedora's DVD installation method, i can see that you can manage some extra packages that are not included in the iso image so during the installation those packages are downloaded from the repositories. Isnt it possible to add a similar feature to LiveCD?, like adding the 'Select your language' step and use the repositories to download the language support if its not english? On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 15:37 -0600, Douglas McClendon wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Jan 28, 2008 7:07 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > >> In the past, any attempts to go to a subset of language have always met > >> with strong resistance. > > > > Here's the paradoxical reality of the situation. > > > > 1)The CD image is championed because DVD drives are not commonplace in > > some parts of the world yet (ie not US/Western Europe). > > > > plus > > > > 2)Holding all languages in the CD image makes it more difficult to > > include useful applcations for everybody. > > > > equals > > > > 3)The very people who need the CD image, are the people who also most > > likely need the additional language support. > > > > > > Here's is what I think we need to actual do. We need to build a > > process by which different language groups are encouraged to build and > > host their own CD spins, instead of continuing to shove everything > > into one CD image. How do we do this? How do we provide the correct > > balance of infrastructure and services such that community members > > will step up and produce and consume the localized CD spins? > > > > How much > > of the work can be automated with scripts which do nothing but pull > > one language group out and stick another one in so that localized > > versions of the same thing can be autogenerated? > > A: All of it. > > -dmc > > > > > > > I don't have any answers to these questions, but I'm pretty sure these > > are the right questions to be asking instead of asking how do we fit > > multiple locales onto a single CD spin. > > > > -jef > > > From notting at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 22:55:22 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:55:22 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <1201646589.3464.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <479F9CA5.3050906@filteredperception.org> <1201646589.3464.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080129225522.GA16624@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Luis Alfredo Prada (juankprada at gmail.com) said: > Maybe im ill be taking this discussion on another direction, but its my > opinion. I've used Ubuntu and so its LiveCD installation. There you can > select your language during the installation process and if you language > isnt english then an aditiona step is added in the installation which is > the 'downloading language support' or something like that. > > As ive also seen fedora's DVD installation method, i can see that you > can manage some extra packages that are not included in the iso image so > during the installation those packages are downloaded from the > repositories. > > Isnt it possible to add a similar feature to LiveCD?, like adding the > 'Select your language' step and use the repositories to download the > language support if its not english? That's sort of orthogonal to having the livecd actually *come up* in the user's requested language - they'll still need to be able to process whatever language the live CD is in just to get to this point. Bill From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 22:56:38 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:56:38 +0100 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080129183040.GM23022@crow> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129183040.GM23022@crow> Message-ID: <64b14b300801291456i407df8car9b74fba56cb809d1@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2008 7:30 PM, Luke Macken wrote: > /usr/share/doc is 141mb, but I'm not sure how viable it would be to > remove it (everything except the release notes). We could possibly split out Just to mention if you have missed my my bz entry, but reelase notes are missing on F8 live CD. If you click in the installed of live cd on "Release notes" you get an message saying "file missing". https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=429672 -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From katzj at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 23:31:17 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:31:17 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080129185218.GA2136@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129183040.GM23022@crow> <20080129185218.GA2136@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1201649477.6274.6.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 13:52 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Luke Macken (lmacken at redhat.com) said: > > /usr/share/doc is 141mb, but I'm not sure how viable it would be to > > remove it (everything except the release notes). We could possibly split out > > the big guys into -docs subpackages. > > > > The largest documentation directories being: > > > > 5.1M ./bash-3.2 > > 6.8M ./cups-1.3.5 > > 8.1M ./ghostscript-8.61 > > 9.4M ./selinux-policy-3.2.5 > > While that's 30MB on disk, using bzip2 as an approximation, that would only > save about 3.5MB of CD space. Still may be worth doing. I've been pretty vocally opposed to removing documentation in the past. Because if the documentation is interesting to ship for the real case, then it's also interesting for being on the live images. Especially as they're installable. And especially as we start looking at things like deltarpm where having those bits on the disk to begin with matters Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 23:32:51 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:32:51 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201649571.6274.9.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 10:24 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Here's is what I think we need to actual do. We need to build a > process by which different language groups are encouraged to build and > host their own CD spins, instead of continuing to shove everything > into one CD image. How do we do this? How do we provide the correct > balance of infrastructure and services such that community members > will step up and produce and consume the localized CD spins? How much > of the work can be automated with scripts which do nothing but pull > one language group out and stick another one in so that localized > versions of the same thing can be autogenerated? The testing[1], hosting, and distribution of these is really the hard part. :-/ Jeremy [1] Testing is the global pain, isn't it? From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 23:36:04 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:36:04 +0100 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300801291536h128c7f1bnd2ad8a99ad2016b6@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2008 8:24 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Jan 28, 2008 7:07 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > In the past, any attempts to go to a subset of language have always met > > with strong resistance. > > Here's the paradoxical reality of the situation. > > 1)The CD image is championed because DVD drives are not commonplace in > some parts of the world yet (ie not US/Western Europe). > > plus > > 2)Holding all languages in the CD image makes it more difficult to > include useful applcations for everybody. > > equals > > 3)The very people who need the CD image, are the people who also most > likely need the additional language support. > > > Here's is what I think we need to actual do. We need to build a > process by which different language groups are encouraged to build and > host their own CD spins, instead of continuing to shove everything > into one CD image. How do we do this? How do we provide the correct > balance of infrastructure and services such that community members > will step up and produce and consume the localized CD spins? How much > of the work can be automated with scripts which do nothing but pull > one language group out and stick another one in so that localized > versions of the same thing can be autogenerated? > > I don't have any answers to these questions, but I'm pretty sure these > are the right questions to be asking instead of asking how do we fit > multiple locales onto a single CD spin. > > -jef I have some lame questions: 1. What kind of compression fedora uses? Any? None? I know that Knoppix makes a big deal how they put a l lot more stuff on CD by doing strong compression. 2. I know I'll get flame for this, but here it goes: make one spin without selinux but include OOo and call it "General Destop". Rename current spin without OOo and with selinux to "Secure desktop" 3. of removing selinux is out of question rename current spin to "Basic Desktop spin" and create a "Full desktop spin" with Ooo and much more other apps and make it a DVD spin, or maybe, maybe 2 CD spin. Hope this helps, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From katzj at redhat.com Tue Jan 29 23:46:10 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:46:10 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801291536h128c7f1bnd2ad8a99ad2016b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801291536h128c7f1bnd2ad8a99ad2016b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201650370.6274.16.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 00:36 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > 1. What kind of compression fedora uses? Any? None? I know that > Knoppix makes a big deal how they put a l lot more stuff on CD by > doing strong compression. We use squashfs which gives us pretty comparable compression to knoppix. > 3. of removing selinux is out of question rename current spin to > "Basic Desktop spin" and create a "Full desktop spin" with Ooo and > much more other apps and make it a DVD spin, or maybe, maybe 2 CD > spin. This then means another image to build, test, host, mirror, ... across n architectures. Not to mention increased user confusion as to which is the "best" for them to download. Jeremy From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 23:49:46 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:49:46 +0100 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <1201649477.6274.6.camel@aglarond.local> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129183040.GM23022@crow> <20080129185218.GA2136@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201649477.6274.6.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <64b14b300801291549w7c7926ck4048370f530491f@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 30, 2008 12:31 AM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 13:52 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Luke Macken (lmacken at redhat.com) said: > > > /usr/share/doc is 141mb, but I'm not sure how viable it would be to > > > remove it (everything except the release notes). We could possibly split out > > > the big guys into -docs subpackages. > > > > > > The largest documentation directories being: > > > > > > 5.1M ./bash-3.2 > > > 6.8M ./cups-1.3.5 > > > 8.1M ./ghostscript-8.61 > > > 9.4M ./selinux-policy-3.2.5 > > > > While that's 30MB on disk, using bzip2 as an approximation, that would only > > save about 3.5MB of CD space. Still may be worth doing. > > I've been pretty vocally opposed to removing documentation in the past. > Because if the documentation is interesting to ship for the real case, > then it's also interesting for being on the live images. Especially as > they're installable. And especially as we start looking at things like > deltarpm where having those bits on the disk to begin with matters > > Jeremy I tested 7zip with ultra settings and got this as a result: 7z a -t7z -m0=lzma -mx=9 -mfb=64 -md=32m -ms=on selinux-policy-3.0.8.7z selinux-policy-3.0.8 ls -lh selinux-policy-3.0.8.7z 199K 2008-01-30 00:46 selinux-policy-3.0.8.7z could 7zip compression be of any help? -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 00:03:51 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 01:03:51 +0100 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801291549w7c7926ck4048370f530491f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129183040.GM23022@crow> <20080129185218.GA2136@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201649477.6274.6.camel@aglarond.local> <64b14b300801291549w7c7926ck4048370f530491f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300801291603k92220e1i6f6f123423d223cf@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 30, 2008 12:49 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Jan 30, 2008 12:31 AM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 13:52 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > Luke Macken (lmacken at redhat.com) said: > > > > /usr/share/doc is 141mb, but I'm not sure how viable it would be to > > > > remove it (everything except the release notes). We could possibly split out > > > > the big guys into -docs subpackages. > > > > > > > > The largest documentation directories being: > > > > > > > > 5.1M ./bash-3.2 > > > > 6.8M ./cups-1.3.5 > > > > 8.1M ./ghostscript-8.61 > > > > 9.4M ./selinux-policy-3.2.5 > > > > > > While that's 30MB on disk, using bzip2 as an approximation, that would only > > > save about 3.5MB of CD space. Still may be worth doing. > > > > I've been pretty vocally opposed to removing documentation in the past. > > Because if the documentation is interesting to ship for the real case, > > then it's also interesting for being on the live images. Especially as > > they're installable. And especially as we start looking at things like > > deltarpm where having those bits on the disk to begin with matters > > > > Jeremy > > I tested 7zip with ultra settings and got this as a result: > > 7z a -t7z -m0=lzma -mx=9 -mfb=64 -md=32m -ms=on > selinux-policy-3.0.8.7z selinux-policy-3.0.8 > > ls -lh selinux-policy-3.0.8.7z > 199K 2008-01-30 00:46 selinux-policy-3.0.8.7z > > could 7zip compression be of any help? Ignore that, I now get it. It is 3.5MB compressed. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From notting at redhat.com Wed Jan 30 00:59:13 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:59:13 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <1201650370.6274.16.camel@aglarond.local> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801291536h128c7f1bnd2ad8a99ad2016b6@mail.gmail.com> <1201650370.6274.16.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <20080130005913.GA14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: > Not to mention increased user confusion as to which is the "best" for > them to download. Also, the overhead of SELinux is nowhere near enough to get you to enough space for OO.o + OO.o localization. Bill From notting at redhat.com Wed Jan 30 01:01:23 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:01:23 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <1201649477.6274.6.camel@aglarond.local> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129183040.GM23022@crow> <20080129185218.GA2136@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201649477.6274.6.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <20080130010123.GB14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: > > While that's 30MB on disk, using bzip2 as an approximation, that would only > > save about 3.5MB of CD space. Still may be worth doing. > > I've been pretty vocally opposed to removing documentation in the past. > Because if the documentation is interesting to ship for the real case, > then it's also interesting for being on the live images. Especially as > they're installable. And especially as we start looking at things like > deltarpm where having those bits on the disk to begin with matters But is it interesting to ship for the real case, or should it be in a separate package? For example, I'm not sure that /usr/share/doc/ghostscript-8.61/Humor.htm is really relevant in all cases. Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Jan 30 01:22:33 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:22:33 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080130010123.GB14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129183040.GM23022@crow> <20080129185218.GA2136@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201649477.6274.6.camel@aglarond.local> <20080130010123.GB14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1201656153.2779.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 20:01 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: > > > While that's 30MB on disk, using bzip2 as an approximation, that would only > > > save about 3.5MB of CD space. Still may be worth doing. > > > > I've been pretty vocally opposed to removing documentation in the past. > > Because if the documentation is interesting to ship for the real case, > > then it's also interesting for being on the live images. Especially as > > they're installable. And especially as we start looking at things like > > deltarpm where having those bits on the disk to begin with matters > > But is it interesting to ship for the real case, or should it be in > a separate package? For example, I'm not sure that > /usr/share/doc/ghostscript-8.61/Humor.htm is really relevant in all cases. Another argument in relation to docs and languages is that a lot of the documentation we ship is only available in a handful of languages anyway (in practice, only English), so it will not really help the people for whose benefit we include all those languages anyway... From juankprada at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 01:42:12 2008 From: juankprada at gmail.com (Juan Camilo Prada) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:42:12 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080129225522.GA16624@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <479F9CA5.3050906@filteredperception.org> <1201646589.3464.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080129225522.GA16624@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1201657332.2511.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 17:55 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Luis Alfredo Prada (juankprada at gmail.com) said: > > Maybe im ill be taking this discussion on another direction, but its my > > opinion. I've used Ubuntu and so its LiveCD installation. There you can > > select your language during the installation process and if you language > > isnt english then an aditiona step is added in the installation which is > > the 'downloading language support' or something like that. > > > > As ive also seen fedora's DVD installation method, i can see that you > > can manage some extra packages that are not included in the iso image so > > during the installation those packages are downloaded from the > > repositories. > > > > Isnt it possible to add a similar feature to LiveCD?, like adding the > > 'Select your language' step and use the repositories to download the > > language support if its not english? > > That's sort of orthogonal to having the livecd actually *come up* in > the user's requested language - they'll still need to be able to process > whatever language the live CD is in just to get to this point. > > Bill > The thing is, we should assume that a user able to download the LiveCD and who is willing to install fedora on his computer might have a little knowledge of English (if that is not true then the user might not be able to install any distro at all, not even fedora DVD iso as it starts in english). And so if the option to choose the language appears as the first step the user could just obvious that it is for language selection (as almost all installers set the first step to choose the installation language), then we could add a "small language support" to the liveCD so the installer can change its language as selected by the user (and only the installer). From katzj at redhat.com Wed Jan 30 03:25:09 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:25:09 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080130010123.GB14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129183040.GM23022@crow> <20080129185218.GA2136@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201649477.6274.6.camel@aglarond.local> <20080130010123.GB14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1201663509.1117.0.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 20:01 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: > > > While that's 30MB on disk, using bzip2 as an approximation, that would only > > > save about 3.5MB of CD space. Still may be worth doing. > > > > I've been pretty vocally opposed to removing documentation in the past. > > Because if the documentation is interesting to ship for the real case, > > then it's also interesting for being on the live images. Especially as > > they're installable. And especially as we start looking at things like > > deltarpm where having those bits on the disk to begin with matters > > But is it interesting to ship for the real case, or should it be in > a separate package? For example, I'm not sure that > /usr/share/doc/ghostscript-8.61/Humor.htm is really relevant in all cases. Or should we not ship it at all? Sticking it in a separate package just leads to the other problems of bloated metadata, etc. And that's a really _dumb_ file :-) Jeremy From caolanm at redhat.com Wed Jan 30 08:08:35 2008 From: caolanm at redhat.com (Caolan McNamara) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:08:35 +0000 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080130005913.GA14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801291536h128c7f1bnd2ad8a99ad2016b6@mail.gmail.com> <1201650370.6274.16.camel@aglarond.local> <20080130005913.GA14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1201680516.28359.604.camel@Jehannum> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 19:59 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: > > Not to mention increased user confusion as to which is the "best" for > > them to download. > > Also, the overhead of SELinux is nowhere near enough to get you to enough > space for OO.o + OO.o localization. If everything including OOo's core apps would fit with *no translations* on a CD. It suggests the old idea I guess, of zoned/regional live-cds with OOo on them (like Ubuntu's and OpenSuse's do) where the language support per-cd is broken down to sommat like EMEA, Asia, Big 12 instead of a one global LiveCD. C. From caolanm at redhat.com Wed Jan 30 08:08:35 2008 From: caolanm at redhat.com (Caolan McNamara) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:08:35 +0000 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080130005913.GA14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801291536h128c7f1bnd2ad8a99ad2016b6@mail.gmail.com> <1201650370.6274.16.camel@aglarond.local> <20080130005913.GA14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1201680516.28359.604.camel@Jehannum> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 19:59 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: > > Not to mention increased user confusion as to which is the "best" for > > them to download. > > Also, the overhead of SELinux is nowhere near enough to get you to enough > space for OO.o + OO.o localization. If everything including OOo's core apps would fit with *no translations* on a CD. It suggests the old idea I guess, of zoned/regional live-cds with OOo on them (like Ubuntu's and OpenSuse's do) where the language support per-cd is broken down to sommat like EMEA, Asia, Big 12 instead of a one global LiveCD. C. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 10:59:24 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:59:24 +0100 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <1201680516.28359.604.camel@Jehannum> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801291536h128c7f1bnd2ad8a99ad2016b6@mail.gmail.com> <1201650370.6274.16.camel@aglarond.local> <20080130005913.GA14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201680516.28359.604.camel@Jehannum> Message-ID: <64b14b300801300259i7e722a6i444cb8f1d67dce80@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 30, 2008 9:08 AM, Caolan McNamara wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 19:59 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: > > > Not to mention increased user confusion as to which is the "best" for > > > them to download. > > > > Also, the overhead of SELinux is nowhere near enough to get you to enough > > space for OO.o + OO.o localization. > > If everything including OOo's core apps would fit with *no translations* > on a CD. It suggests the old idea I guess, of zoned/regional live-cds > with OOo on them (like Ubuntu's and OpenSuse's do) where the language > support per-cd is broken down to sommat like EMEA, Asia, Big 12 instead > of a one global LiveCD. > > C. Could we do something different? Can there be an base install with OOo and language pack CD as an addon? Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From notting at redhat.com Wed Jan 30 17:02:48 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:02:48 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801300259i7e722a6i444cb8f1d67dce80@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801291536h128c7f1bnd2ad8a99ad2016b6@mail.gmail.com> <1201650370.6274.16.camel@aglarond.local> <20080130005913.GA14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201680516.28359.604.camel@Jehannum> <64b14b300801300259i7e722a6i444cb8f1d67dce80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080130170248.GD6250@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Valent Turkovic (valent.turkovic at gmail.com) said: > Could we do something different? > Can there be an base install with OOo and language pack CD as an addon? I don't see how 'please swap in the other CD to run openoffice' is practical, or doable. Bill From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 12:05:11 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:05:11 +0100 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <20080130170248.GD6250@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080129035420.GB27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801291536h128c7f1bnd2ad8a99ad2016b6@mail.gmail.com> <1201650370.6274.16.camel@aglarond.local> <20080130005913.GA14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201680516.28359.604.camel@Jehannum> <64b14b300801300259i7e722a6i444cb8f1d67dce80@mail.gmail.com> <20080130170248.GD6250@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300801310405i30576bffo55f6506af3626159@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 30, 2008 6:02 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Valent Turkovic (valent.turkovic at gmail.com) said: > > Could we do something different? > > Can there be an base install with OOo and language pack CD as an addon? > > I don't see how 'please swap in the other CD to run openoffice' is practical, > or doable. > > Bill I was thinking something different. If you leave everything by default you get Fedora 9 live cd installed with english and OOo in english. In Live CD installer you choose your country and/or language of your choice and then you are presented with two options to load language packs for gnome and Ooo from CD2 or download them if you are online. And then everything else is still installed from CD1. Yes it is a messy idea... but still maybe somebody has a better one... -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From alexl at redhat.com Thu Jan 31 13:02:48 2008 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:02:48 +0100 Subject: Orphaned: beagle Message-ID: <1201784568.12696.90.camel@dhcp-208-188.arn.redhat.com> Beagle really needs the love and care of someone, and I've done a really poor job on that. And I don't really have time to do it, so I've orphaned it in pkgdb and it is looking for a new owner. Anyone that uses beagle a bit and is interested in it is a better owner than me. Please care for the puppy! From juankprada at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 15:05:55 2008 From: juankprada at gmail.com (Juan Camilo Prada Ojeda) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:05:55 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: <64b14b300801310405i30576bffo55f6506af3626159@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801291536h128c7f1bnd2ad8a99ad2016b6@mail.gmail.com> <1201650370.6274.16.camel@aglarond.local> <20080130005913.GA14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201680516.28359.604.camel@Jehannum> <64b14b300801300259i7e722a6i444cb8f1d67dce80@mail.gmail.com> <20080130170248.GD6250@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <64b14b300801310405i30576bffo55f6506af3626159@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2008/1/31, Valent Turkovic : > > On Jan 30, 2008 6:02 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Valent Turkovic (valent.turkovic at gmail.com) said: > > > Could we do something different? > > > Can there be an base install with OOo and language pack CD as an > addon? > > > > I don't see how 'please swap in the other CD to run openoffice' is > practical, > > or doable. > > > > Bill > > > I was thinking something different. If you leave everything by default > you get Fedora 9 live cd installed with english and OOo in english. > > In Live CD installer you choose your country and/or language of your > choice and then you are presented with two options to load language > packs for gnome and Ooo from CD2 or download them if you are online. > And then everything else is still installed from CD1. Yes it is a > messy idea... but still maybe somebody has a better one... +1 Thats pretty much what i proposed, i think is a good idea to let the user choose its language and if it doesnt fit on the liveCD then it could be downloaded from the internet. Someway or another non-english-speakers will have to deal with english during his FOSS experience, and leaving English as the default language isnt going to change that much (remember that DVD iso's default language is english and it change ass soon as you select another language). so we could add the translation just for the Anaconda installer and leave the rest of the LiveCD with its default language, and if needed, the other languages could be downloaded from the internet. -- > http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ > linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless > registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. > ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic > > -- > > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Jan 31 15:16:25 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:16:25 -0500 Subject: making the i386 livecd fit In-Reply-To: References: <20080129035356.GA27534@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201579663.3582.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910801291124l7f7e2b19if85a864cadd3ced2@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300801291536h128c7f1bnd2ad8a99ad2016b6@mail.gmail.com> <1201650370.6274.16.camel@aglarond.local> <20080130005913.GA14521@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1201680516.28359.604.camel@Jehannum> <64b14b300801300259i7e722a6i444cb8f1d67dce80@mail.gmail.com> <20080130170248.GD6250@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <64b14b300801310405i30576bffo55f6506af3626159@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201792585.2945.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 10:05 -0500, Juan Camilo Prada Ojeda wrote: > > Thats pretty much what i proposed, i think is a good idea to let the > user choose its language and if it doesnt fit on the liveCD then it > could be downloaded from the internet. Someway or another > non-english-speakers will have to deal with english during his FOSS > experience, and leaving English as the default language isnt going to > change that much (remember that DVD iso's default language is english > and it change ass soon as you select another language). so we could > add the translation just for the Anaconda installer and leave the rest > of the LiveCD with its default language, and if needed, the other > languages could be downloaded from the internet. > See my message earlier in this thread on %_install_langs