From caolanm at redhat.com Tue Mar 11 15:46:07 2008 From: caolanm at redhat.com (Caolan McNamara) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:46:07 +0000 Subject: OOo Draw in the menus In-Reply-To: <1202927161.28468.469.camel@Jehannum> References: <47B1DD3F.3090509@prodigy.net.mx> <1202927161.28468.469.camel@Jehannum> Message-ID: <1205250367.7083.20.camel@Jehannum> On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 18:26 +0000, Caolan McNamara wrote: > On Tue, 2008-02-12 at 11:54 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > about OOo Draw. > ... > > /usr/share/applications/, any particular reason why it isn't included in > > either the Office or Graphics applications menus? > > Well https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=156677#c4 is why it > (and oomath) was marked as NoDisplay=true on the urging of the then > UI/UX-team. > > C. So, I've placed Draw back into the menus, and also reverted back to "OpenOffice.org X" instead of "Word Processor" and "Spreadsheet" etc due to popular demand for those two changes. And also because even if I wanted to *just* add Draw back to the menus as e.g. "Drawing" or something then we just don't have the 147 translations for that in GenericName to use as we do for writer and calc. C. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 09:33:46 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:33:46 +0100 Subject: OpenOffice on F9 Live CD? Message-ID: <64b14b300803180233n5ef6fd99ncf4b5756f30b8546@mail.gmail.com> Hi, there has been a push to remove some odd langunages (mine is also on the list), in order to make room for OpenOffice.org Is F9 Live CD going to have OpenOffice on it? Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From caolanm at redhat.com Tue Mar 18 09:57:23 2008 From: caolanm at redhat.com (Caolan McNamara) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:57:23 +0000 Subject: OpenOffice on F9 Live CD? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803180233n5ef6fd99ncf4b5756f30b8546@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803180233n5ef6fd99ncf4b5756f30b8546@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205834243.5227.11.camel@Jehannum> On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 10:33 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, > there has been a push to remove some odd langunages (mine is also on > the list), in order to make room for OpenOffice.org > > Is F9 Live CD going to have OpenOffice on it? Be nice to squeeze impress onto a live CD for a sort of "Speaker fails to get laptop to work and faces embarrassing meltdown at conference, caped fedora user leaps to the rescue with fedora live CD and saves day" C. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 10:49:48 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:49:48 +0100 Subject: OpenOffice on F9 Live CD? In-Reply-To: <1205834243.5227.11.camel@Jehannum> References: <64b14b300803180233n5ef6fd99ncf4b5756f30b8546@mail.gmail.com> <1205834243.5227.11.camel@Jehannum> Message-ID: <64b14b300803180349q61a52193le383be064a97aaba@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Caolan McNamara wrote: > On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 10:33 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Hi, > > there has been a push to remove some odd langunages (mine is also on > > the list), in order to make room for OpenOffice.org > > > > Is F9 Live CD going to have OpenOffice on it? > > Be nice to squeeze impress onto a live CD for a sort of "Speaker fails > to get laptop to work and faces embarrassing meltdown at conference, > caped fedora user leaps to the rescue with fedora live CD and saves day" > > C. Has anybody dome some analysis how come ubuntu squezed full OOo on theirs CDs? What have they sacrificed? Do they have some tricks that fedora live cd isn't using? Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Mar 18 10:55:31 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 06:55:31 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice on F9 Live CD? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803180349q61a52193le383be064a97aaba@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803180233n5ef6fd99ncf4b5756f30b8546@mail.gmail.com> <1205834243.5227.11.camel@Jehannum> <64b14b300803180349q61a52193le383be064a97aaba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205837731.2047.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 11:49 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Has anybody dome some analysis how come ubuntu squezed full OOo on theirs CDs? > What have they sacrificed? Do they have some tricks that fedora live > cd isn't using? IIRC they do English only. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Mar 18 10:55:51 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 06:55:51 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice on F9 Live CD? In-Reply-To: <1205834243.5227.11.camel@Jehannum> References: <64b14b300803180233n5ef6fd99ncf4b5756f30b8546@mail.gmail.com> <1205834243.5227.11.camel@Jehannum> Message-ID: <1205837751.2047.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 09:57 +0000, Caolan McNamara wrote: > Be nice to squeeze impress onto a live CD for a sort of "Speaker fails > to get laptop to work and faces embarrassing meltdown at conference, > caped fedora user leaps to the rescue with fedora live CD and saves > day" This could easily be a Live DVD or a Live USB stick... -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From caolanm at redhat.com Tue Mar 18 10:56:54 2008 From: caolanm at redhat.com (Caolan McNamara) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:56:54 +0000 Subject: OpenOffice on F9 Live CD? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803180349q61a52193le383be064a97aaba@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803180233n5ef6fd99ncf4b5756f30b8546@mail.gmail.com> <1205834243.5227.11.camel@Jehannum> <64b14b300803180349q61a52193le383be064a97aaba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205837814.5227.13.camel@Jehannum> On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 11:49 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Has anybody dome some analysis how come ubuntu squezed full OOo on theirs CDs? > What have they sacrificed? Do they have some tricks that fedora live > cd isn't using? They placed a minimal set of OOo langpacks on the CD the last time I looked, maybe even just the US English ones. C. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 12:02:28 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:02:28 +0100 Subject: OpenOffice on F9 Live CD? In-Reply-To: <1205837731.2047.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803180233n5ef6fd99ncf4b5756f30b8546@mail.gmail.com> <1205834243.5227.11.camel@Jehannum> <64b14b300803180349q61a52193le383be064a97aaba@mail.gmail.com> <1205837731.2047.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <64b14b300803180502x6322b0fdk4d981f91fa078372@mail.gmail.com> 2008/3/18 Jesse Keating : > On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 11:49 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > Has anybody dome some analysis how come ubuntu squezed full OOo on theirs CDs? > > What have they sacrificed? Do they have some tricks that fedora live > > cd isn't using? > > IIRC they do English only. Will Fedora do this also? I'm speaking for lots of non-english speaking people when I say that our translations are bad, and lots of people are much more used to english versions than translated ones. Of course there are advantages to having translation (I'm working hard to translate fedora and it's packages to Croatian) but until we come there it would be great to have OOo on Fedora Live CD at least only in English. Are you maybe looking for Fedora Live DVD with all languages and Live CD with English only OOo? Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From robi.petranovic at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 13:14:42 2008 From: robi.petranovic at gmail.com (Robi) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:14:42 +0100 Subject: Fedora 9 x86_64 LiveCD fit on CD??? Message-ID: Hi Fedora 8 i686 live CD is ~690MB large, so the whole CD is used. Fedora 8 x86_64 live CD is ~750MB large, so it isn't LiveCD, but LiveDVD..... I wonder why is that so? Can you made Fedora 9 x86_64 LiveCD fit 700MB CD space??? Robert Petranovi? From notting at redhat.com Tue Mar 18 15:36:08 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:36:08 -0400 Subject: Fedora 9 x86_64 LiveCD fit on CD??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080318153608.GE16084@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Robi (robi.petranovic at gmail.com) said: > Fedora 8 i686 live CD is ~690MB large, so the whole CD is used. > Fedora 8 x86_64 live CD is ~750MB large, so it isn't LiveCD, but LiveDVD..... > > I wonder why is that so? x86_64 binaries are bigger (among other things). Bill From robi.petranovic at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 16:30:20 2008 From: robi.petranovic at gmail.com (Robi) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:30:20 +0100 Subject: Fedora 9 x86_64 LiveCD fit on CD??? In-Reply-To: <20080318153608.GE16084@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080318153608.GE16084@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Robi (robi.petranovic at gmail.com) said: > > Fedora 8 i686 live CD is ~690MB large, so the whole CD is used. > > Fedora 8 x86_64 live CD is ~750MB large, so it isn't LiveCD, but LiveDVD..... > > > > I wonder why is that so? > > x86_64 binaries are bigger (among other things). > > Bill > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > So, you are filling the LiveCD with i686 packeages until the maximum ~700MB, and then do the exact copy with x86_64 packages??? Why don't you do that reverse??? Then, the i686 LiveCD will be ~650MB and x86_64 will be ~700MB and both will fit CD... From notting at redhat.com Tue Mar 18 16:32:53 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:32:53 -0400 Subject: Fedora 9 x86_64 LiveCD fit on CD??? In-Reply-To: References: <20080318153608.GE16084@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080318163253.GA22426@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Robi (robi.petranovic at gmail.com) said: > So, you are filling the LiveCD with i686 packeages until the maximum > ~700MB, and then do the exact copy with x86_64 packages??? There's a specific package set that's chosen. > Why don't you do that reverse??? Then, the i686 LiveCD will be ~650MB > and x86_64 will be ~700MB and both will fit CD... Because then all the i386 users will complain about the missing functionality? It's a losing game any way you look at it. If you have a x86_64 box that only has a CD drive (unlikely), you can run the 32-bit CD image. Bill From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Mar 18 18:31:00 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:01:00 +0530 Subject: OpenOffice on F9 Live CD? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803180502x6322b0fdk4d981f91fa078372@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803180233n5ef6fd99ncf4b5756f30b8546@mail.gmail.com> <1205834243.5227.11.camel@Jehannum> <64b14b300803180349q61a52193le383be064a97aaba@mail.gmail.com> <1205837731.2047.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803180502x6322b0fdk4d981f91fa078372@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47E00A64.9090807@fedoraproject.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > 2008/3/18 Jesse Keating : >> On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 11:49 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> > >> > Has anybody dome some analysis how come ubuntu squezed full OOo on theirs CDs? >> > What have they sacrificed? Do they have some tricks that fedora live >> > cd isn't using? >> >> IIRC they do English only. > > Will Fedora do this also? Not really. L10N is important enough to have by default. Rahul Ps: Please stop cross posting to multiple lists repeatedly. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 09:52:10 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:52:10 +0100 Subject: OpenOffice on F9 Live CD? In-Reply-To: <47E00A64.9090807@fedoraproject.org> References: <64b14b300803180233n5ef6fd99ncf4b5756f30b8546@mail.gmail.com> <1205834243.5227.11.camel@Jehannum> <64b14b300803180349q61a52193le383be064a97aaba@mail.gmail.com> <1205837731.2047.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803180502x6322b0fdk4d981f91fa078372@mail.gmail.com> <47E00A64.9090807@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <64b14b300803190252m44702537ubab1c8d63391e910@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 7:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > 2008/3/18 Jesse Keating : > >> On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 11:49 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > >> > > >> > Has anybody dome some analysis how come ubuntu squezed full OOo on theirs CDs? > >> > What have they sacrificed? Do they have some tricks that fedora live > >> > cd isn't using? > >> > >> IIRC they do English only. > > > > Will Fedora do this also? > > Not really. L10N is important enough to have by default. Ok, I didn't understand that when you install L10N then you must have all different languages. Isn't there a way to choose which to have and which to exclude? > Rahul > > Ps: Please stop cross posting to multiple lists repeatedly. You misunderstood my behavior. I didn't cross post. I posted to WRONG mailing list, and then realized that so I posted again to this list when I realized that the first one was wrong one. If I could I would delete the first email. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Mar 19 12:57:46 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:57:46 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice on F9 Live CD? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803190252m44702537ubab1c8d63391e910@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803180233n5ef6fd99ncf4b5756f30b8546@mail.gmail.com> <1205834243.5227.11.camel@Jehannum> <64b14b300803180349q61a52193le383be064a97aaba@mail.gmail.com> <1205837731.2047.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803180502x6322b0fdk4d981f91fa078372@mail.gmail.com> <47E00A64.9090807@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300803190252m44702537ubab1c8d63391e910@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205931466.2860.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-03-19 at 10:52 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Ok, I didn't understand that when you install L10N then you must have > all different languages. > Isn't there a way to choose which to have and which to exclude Please read the archives. You can find prior discussion of this topic, I believe on the fedora-livecd-list From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 20:36:11 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:36:11 +0100 Subject: OOo Draw in the menus In-Reply-To: <1203002664.6344.7.camel@tol-sirion> References: <47B1DD3F.3090509@prodigy.net.mx> <1202927161.28468.469.camel@Jehannum> <1203002664.6344.7.camel@tol-sirion> Message-ID: <47E810BB.2030903@gmail.com> Michael Knepher wrote: > OOo Draw is a fully fledged document-centric vector drawing > application, and definitely deserves its own menu item. > +1 From caolanm at redhat.com Mon Mar 24 20:44:26 2008 From: caolanm at redhat.com (Caolan McNamara) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:44:26 +0000 Subject: OOo Draw in the menus In-Reply-To: <47E810BB.2030903@gmail.com> References: <47B1DD3F.3090509@prodigy.net.mx> <1202927161.28468.469.camel@Jehannum> <1203002664.6344.7.camel@tol-sirion> <47E810BB.2030903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206391466.16803.2.camel@Jehannum> On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 21:36 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Michael Knepher wrote: > > OOo Draw is a fully fledged document-centric vector drawing > > application, and definitely deserves its own menu item. It should already be in the menus in rawhide since >= 2.4.0-10.1 C. From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 22:29:08 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:29:08 -0800 Subject: OOo Draw in the menus In-Reply-To: <1206391466.16803.2.camel@Jehannum> References: <47B1DD3F.3090509@prodigy.net.mx> <1202927161.28468.469.camel@Jehannum> <1203002664.6344.7.camel@tol-sirion> <47E810BB.2030903@gmail.com> <1206391466.16803.2.camel@Jehannum> Message-ID: <604aa7910803241529s3774a56bq881245839997f583@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Caolan McNamara wrote: > It should already be in the menus in rawhide since >= 2.4.0-10.1 > Indeed I see it. -jef -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 19:55:11 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:55:11 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program Message-ID: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> Hi, previous fedora versions had "Gimp" as entry in "open with" gnome menu and now it is "GNU Image Manipulation Program". What do you think is better "Gimp" or "GNU Image Manipulation Program" for a name in the menu? Also in Gnome Aplications menu there is "GNU Image Manipulation Program" but most people know only about Gimp to that can be confusing. Valent. From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Mar 24 23:48:47 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:48:47 -0400 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206402527.9235.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 20:55 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Also in Gnome Aplications menu there is "GNU Image Manipulation Program" > but most people know only about Gimp to that can be confusing. How does somebody new to Linux know what "gimp" does? -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Mon Mar 24 23:46:25 2008 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:46:25 -0400 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 20:55 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > previous fedora versions had "Gimp" as entry in "open with" gnome menu > and now it is "GNU Image Manipulation Program". > > What do you think is better "Gimp" or "GNU Image Manipulation Program" > for a name in the menu? > > Also in Gnome Aplications menu there is "GNU Image Manipulation Program" > but most people know only about Gimp to that can be confusing. I believe this is a question for upstream, since as far as I'm aware we don't modify the name in the supplied desktop file. Later, /B -- Brian Pepple http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BrianPepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Mar 25 04:35:37 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:35:37 -0600 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <1206402527.9235.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402527.9235.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <47E88119.10108@prodigy.net.mx> Jesse Keating escribi?: > On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 20:55 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > >> Also in Gnome Aplications menu there is "GNU Image Manipulation Program" >> but most people know only about Gimp to that can be confusing. >> > > How does somebody new to Linux know what "gimp" does? > Not only Linux users are familiar with The GIMP. It has picked up a surprisingly high esteem among Windows users due to its Free nature. In fact, I know many users who knew of The GIMP first and Linux second... I wouldn't disregard the brand recognition as easily ;-) From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Mar 25 04:33:52 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:33:52 -0600 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47E880B0.8010208@prodigy.net.mx> Valent Turkovic escribi?: > Hi, > previous fedora versions had "Gimp" as entry in "open with" gnome menu > and now it is "GNU Image Manipulation Program". > > What do you think is better "Gimp" or "GNU Image Manipulation Program" > for a name in the menu? > > Also in Gnome Aplications menu there is "GNU Image Manipulation > Program" but most people know only about Gimp to that can be confusing. > > Valent. > Actually I bumped into this "problem" when I migrated from F7 to F8, and it struck me as a surprise quite a bit. I much rather have GIMP back than "GNU Image Manipulation Program" or "Programa de Manipulaci?n de Im?genes GNU" in my Spanish session. From mcepl at redhat.com Tue Mar 25 06:33:31 2008 From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:33:31 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> Message-ID: On 2008-03-24, 23:46 GMT, Brian Pepple wrote: > I believe this is a question for upstream, since as far as I'm > aware we don't modify the name in the supplied desktop file. OK, than IMHO this is stupid, but their problem. Matej From mcepl at redhat.com Tue Mar 25 06:32:55 2008 From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:32:55 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402527.9235.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 2008-03-24, 23:48 GMT, Jesse Keating wrote: > How does somebody new to Linux know what "gimp" does? I think we hurt gimp's branding by removing that particular name from the menus. Yes, this is one of the most famous free software and many people know it by its name. Can we have at least "Image manipulation (GIMP)"? Matej From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Mar 25 07:46:54 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 09:46:54 +0200 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> Message-ID: <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> Matej Cepl wrote: > On 2008-03-24, 23:46 GMT, Brian Pepple wrote: >> I believe this is a question for upstream, since as far as I'm >> aware we don't modify the name in the supplied desktop file. > > OK, than IMHO this is stupid, but their problem. I'll argue this is *our* problem. The Fedora Desktop is not just a bunch of packages thrown together, it is supposed to be more than that: have consistency and a vision behind it. As a long time GIMP user, with my memory muscle trained to find it in the menu, it was a pain for me (and I sill have not recovered completely) to launch it, I still look for The Gimp and see GNU something. Here is how the Graphics menu looks on my F8 desktop: Agave FontForge Fyre GNU Image Manipulation Program gThumb Image Viewer Inkscape Vector Graphics Editor ScannerTool Quite inconsistent, but if I would try to apply some logic, it would look like the application name is "GNU" and the description is "Image Manipulation Program". -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 10:30:20 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:30:20 +0100 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop Message-ID: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> I have a few ideas that IMO would make Fedora more usable as a general desktop and developer platform: What? : 1. have gnome-terminal shortcut on gnome panel (as firefox and evolution) 2. have gnome clipboard manager installed by default (glipper gnome applet) 3. have /usr/sbin and /sbin in PATH for regular users Why? : 1. because gnome-terminal is the second most used [1] application on gnome desktop and this would make it more accessible for users. 2. because any desktop needs a good clipboard manager, it enhances usability enormously. 3. I personally need it only for some commands - like /sbin/ifconfig and /sbin/iwconfig are there any down sides to putting new /sbin and /usr/sbin in every users PATH variable? What do you think is this a good or bad idea? Cheers, Valent. [1] http://online.gnome.org/applications -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From nphilipp at redhat.com Tue Mar 25 14:56:39 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:56:39 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402527.9235.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206456999.3606.2.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 07:32 +0100, Matej Cepl wrote: > On 2008-03-24, 23:48 GMT, Jesse Keating wrote: > > How does somebody new to Linux know what "gimp" does? > > I think we hurt gimp's branding by removing that particular name > from the menus. Yes, this is one of the most famous free software > and many people know it by its name. Can we have at least "Image > manipulation (GIMP)"? If at all, they hurt their own branding as this is the desktop file they distribute. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From nphilipp at redhat.com Tue Mar 25 15:41:52 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:41:52 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206459712.3606.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 20:55 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, > previous fedora versions had "Gimp" as entry in "open with" gnome menu > and now it is "GNU Image Manipulation Program". > > What do you think is better "Gimp" or "GNU Image Manipulation Program" > for a name in the menu? > > Also in Gnome Aplications menu there is "GNU Image Manipulation Program" > but most people know only about Gimp to that can be confusing. This is how upstream does it and I'm very much inclined not to change that as this would mean that we would have to care for the translation of that string. Upstream might change it for 2.6 but defaults to leave it as it is unless somebody comes forward with compelling reasons to change it again. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Mar 25 18:02:09 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:02:09 -0600 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> Valent Turkovic escribi?: > I have a few ideas that IMO would make Fedora more usable as a general > desktop and developer platform: > > What? : > > 1. have gnome-terminal shortcut on gnome panel (as firefox and evolution) > > 2. have gnome clipboard manager installed by default (glipper gnome applet) > I agree with these two. > 3. have /usr/sbin and /sbin in PATH for regular users > I don't agree with this one... > > Why? : > > 1. because gnome-terminal is the second most used [1] application on > gnome desktop and this would make it more accessible for users. > > 2. because any desktop needs a good clipboard manager, it enhances > usability enormously. > These two indeed make sense, though some people might think that having a shortcut for the terminal in the panel by default may be against the purpose of the desktop usability guidelines. > 3. I personally need it only for some commands - like /sbin/ifconfig > and /sbin/iwconfig are there any down sides to putting new /sbin and > /usr/sbin in every users PATH variable? What do you think is this a > good or bad idea? > Maybe a better approach for those commands in particular would be to add aliases for them in /usr/bin? I can think of a couple more commands that may benefit from being also available in their restricted mode to regular users (lspci, lsusb, lsof, etc), but being as /sbin paths are meant for administrative tasks, I actually do see having them as part of a regular user's PATH a potential security risk. > Cheers, > Valent. > > [1] http://online.gnome.org/applications > > From martin.sourada at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 17:21:32 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:21:32 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 09:46 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Matej Cepl wrote: > > On 2008-03-24, 23:46 GMT, Brian Pepple wrote: > >> I believe this is a question for upstream, since as far as I'm > >> aware we don't modify the name in the supplied desktop file. > > > > OK, than IMHO this is stupid, but their problem. > > I'll argue this is *our* problem. The Fedora Desktop is not just a bunch > of packages thrown together, it is supposed to be more than that: have > consistency and a vision behind it. > > As a long time GIMP user, with my memory muscle trained to find it in > the menu, it was a pain for me (and I sill have not recovered > completely) to launch it, I still look for The Gimp and see GNU something. > > Here is how the Graphics menu looks on my F8 desktop: > Agave > FontForge > Fyre > GNU Image Manipulation Program > gThumb Image Viewer > Inkscape Vector Graphics Editor > ScannerTool > > Quite inconsistent, but if I would try to apply some logic, it would > look like the application name is "GNU" and the description is "Image > Manipulation Program". > > -- > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com > Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ > Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org > my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro > I'd prefer to have the long names in menu, consistently... I believe GNU Image Manipulation Program is saner to have in menu then GIMP, but when it changed it also gave me lot of pain and to see it changing again... well... I got used to find this one by icon recently... BUT, I believe, isn't the GNU Image Manipulation Program the official long name for GIMP? And yeah, a lot of windows users use gimp, but on the other side a lot of linux users don't know about gimp. Therefore I think it's better to use the long version - it actually tells what the program does and users already familiar with gimp either know the long counterpart or are able to find it looking at the icons... Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From robi.petranovic at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 16:06:12 2008 From: robi.petranovic at gmail.com (Robi) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:06:12 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <1206459712.3606.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206459712.3606.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 20:55 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > Hi, > > previous fedora versions had "Gimp" as entry in "open with" gnome menu > > and now it is "GNU Image Manipulation Program". > > > > What do you think is better "Gimp" or "GNU Image Manipulation Program" > > for a name in the menu? > > > > Also in Gnome Aplications menu there is "GNU Image Manipulation Program" > > but most people know only about Gimp to that can be confusing. > > This is how upstream does it and I'm very much inclined not to change > that as this would mean that we would have to care for the translation > of that string. > > Upstream might change it for 2.6 but defaults to leave it as it is > unless somebody comes forward with compelling reasons to change it > again. > > > Nils > -- > Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com > "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary > Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 > PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 > > -- > > > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > I don't know about you guys, but I like seeing the programs name in menus and I hate to see ONLY program description like a name... that's why I'm always renaming the entire menu.... In my opinion there should be some popup description text when mouse over the program's name.... But that's gnome issue... So why don't you just put: "GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)" etc.... Everybody happy, right? Besides that, there's Google who knows everything for users who don't ;)...... From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 19:09:41 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:09:41 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> 2008/3/25 Martin Sourada : > > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 09:46 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > Matej Cepl wrote: > > > On 2008-03-24, 23:46 GMT, Brian Pepple wrote: > > >> I believe this is a question for upstream, since as far as I'm > > >> aware we don't modify the name in the supplied desktop file. > > > > > > OK, than IMHO this is stupid, but their problem. > > > > I'll argue this is *our* problem. The Fedora Desktop is not just a bunch > > of packages thrown together, it is supposed to be more than that: have > > consistency and a vision behind it. > > > > As a long time GIMP user, with my memory muscle trained to find it in > > the menu, it was a pain for me (and I sill have not recovered > > completely) to launch it, I still look for The Gimp and see GNU something. > > > > Here is how the Graphics menu looks on my F8 desktop: > > Agave > > FontForge > > Fyre > > GNU Image Manipulation Program > > gThumb Image Viewer > > Inkscape Vector Graphics Editor > > ScannerTool > > > > Quite inconsistent, but if I would try to apply some logic, it would > > look like the application name is "GNU" and the description is "Image > > Manipulation Program". > > > > -- > > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com > > Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ > > Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org > > my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro > > > I'd prefer to have the long names in menu, consistently... I believe GNU > Image Manipulation Program is saner to have in menu then GIMP, but when > it changed it also gave me lot of pain and to see it changing again... > well... I got used to find this one by icon recently... > > BUT, I believe, isn't the GNU Image Manipulation Program the official > long name for GIMP? > > And yeah, a lot of windows users use gimp, but on the other side a lot > of linux users don't know about gimp. Therefore I think it's better to > use the long version - it actually tells what the program does and users > already familiar with gimp either know the long counterpart or are able > to find it looking at the icons... > > Martin I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers, "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also... let's be practical please. Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From caillon at redhat.com Tue Mar 25 22:27:48 2008 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:27:48 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47E97C64.4090604@redhat.com> On 03/25/2008 06:30 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > I have a few ideas that IMO would make Fedora more usable as a general > desktop and developer platform: > You want to look at the development spin, and propose changes there. From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 00:57:41 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:57:41 -0400 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206493061.3158.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a > non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations > and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers, > "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also... > let's be practical please. I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're the ones that changed the menu name. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Mar 26 06:53:11 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:53:11 +0200 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: <47E9F2D7.2020102@nicubunu.ro> Martin Sourada wrote: > > I'd prefer to have the long names in menu, consistently... I believe GNU > Image Manipulation Program is saner to have in menu then GIMP, but when > it changed it also gave me lot of pain and to see it changing again... > well... I got used to find this one by icon recently... I have my own preferences too, but what I think is a lot more important than one's preferences is to have consistency: either consistently use long names for all the applications in the menu or consistently use short names. Make a choice and stick with it. Otherwise it hurts our desktop and hurts our distro. Do we have any usability person still subscribed to the list? -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 08:23:41 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:23:41 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <1206493061.3158.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> <1206493061.3158.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <64b14b300803260123j2804cb41v4e276ffdb244760f@mail.gmail.com> 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating : > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a > > non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations > > and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers, > > "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also... > > let's be practical please. > > I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're > the ones that changed the menu name. > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the name to gimp if that fits better, most upstream gnome people to who I talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream customize as they need for them. I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling was spot on or wrong. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 08:24:22 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:24:22 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <47E9F2D7.2020102@nicubunu.ro> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <47E9F2D7.2020102@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <64b14b300803260124i684b2701l14fb17e7a1dcb8a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Martin Sourada wrote: > > > > I'd prefer to have the long names in menu, consistently... I believe GNU > > Image Manipulation Program is saner to have in menu then GIMP, but when > > it changed it also gave me lot of pain and to see it changing again... > > well... I got used to find this one by icon recently... > > I have my own preferences too, but what I think is a lot more important > than one's preferences is to have consistency: either consistently use > long names for all the applications in the menu or consistently use > short names. Make a choice and stick with it. > Otherwise it hurts our desktop and hurts our distro. +1 -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 08:25:39 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:25:39 +0100 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <47E97C64.4090604@redhat.com> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E97C64.4090604@redhat.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300803260125s5310555r4ddb5bed320ced54@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:27 PM, Christopher Aillon wrote: > On 03/25/2008 06:30 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I have a few ideas that IMO would make Fedora more usable as a general > > desktop and developer platform: > > > > You want to look at the development spin, and propose changes there. IMO this would be beneficial also for Fedora DVD and Fedora Live CD spin also. Why only developers spin? Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From nphilipp at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 09:31:55 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:31:55 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803260123j2804cb41v4e276ffdb244760f@mail.gmail.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> <1206493061.3158.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803260123j2804cb41v4e276ffdb244760f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206523915.2840.15.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 09:23 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating : > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a > > > non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations > > > and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers, > > > "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also... > > > let's be practical please. > > > > I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're > > the ones that changed the menu name. > > > > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the > name to gimp if that fits better, As I already said, this is not practicable as we need to care for all languages. AFAIK, we don't have infrastructure for forked translatable strings. > most upstream gnome people to who I > talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream > customize as they need for them. > > I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling > was spot on or wrong. Do you plan to do that via mail (gimp-developer at lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU) or via IRC (#gimp @ GIMPNet)? If the latter, it would be nice if you could ping me (my nick is "nils") as I may have something to add about the technical aspects (.desktop files etc.). Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From nphilipp at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 09:49:03 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:49:03 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206459712.3606.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1206524943.2840.30.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 17:06 +0100, Robi wrote: > So why don't you just put: > "GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)" > etc.... Everybody happy, right? Weeell. This would mean that somebody would have to whip the GNOME panel into shape first so that it actually displays "Generic Name (Name)". Then everybody and their uncle would have to fix desktop files which have generic names as "Name" to work around that deficiency. Kind of a catch-22 if you ask me. Perhaps we should propose that as a feature for F10. > Besides that, there's Google who knows everything for users who don't ;)...... This is a particularly poor argument ;-P. Usually, if you don't already know what application you need to use, you look into the menu to find out what's there. I'd hazard a guess and claim that the majority of people won't search Google for more than three with names like "KDVI", "UFRaw", "Xfig"(*) to find what they want. If they don't find it, they give up in frustration and return to Windows or MacOS -- which aren't inherently better, but since you have to install much of the software by yourself, you're kinda bound to know what it's called. (*): Two of these use Name and GenericName as layed out in the spec(**), guess which ;-) (**): http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s05.html Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From robi.petranovic at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 10:52:19 2008 From: robi.petranovic at gmail.com (Robi) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:52:19 -0400 Subject: Disable SELinux in LiveCD Message-ID: While I was using Fedora 9 Beta (x86_64) GNOME LiveCD, I tried to change my keyboard layout to Croatian, and got SELinux warning. I think that configurating SELinux to change keyboard layout can be pretty frustrating to new users, so my advise is disable it while in LiveCD mode. As far as I know, the SELinux is really not needed in LiveCD mode... From alexl at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 10:54:28 2008 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:54:28 +0100 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206528868.4412.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 11:30 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > I have a few ideas that IMO would make Fedora more usable as a general > desktop and developer platform: > 2. have gnome clipboard manager installed by default (glipper gnome applet) This causes all sorts of bad problems. See e.g.: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2008-March/msg00053.html From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 11:32:19 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:32:19 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <1206524943.2840.30.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206459712.3606.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1206524943.2840.30.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> Message-ID: <1206531139.1458.24.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 10:49 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 17:06 +0100, Robi wrote: > > So why don't you just put: > > "GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)" > > etc.... Everybody happy, right? > > Weeell. This would mean that somebody would have to whip the GNOME panel > into shape first so that it actually displays "Generic Name (Name)". > Then everybody and their uncle would have to fix desktop files which > have generic names as "Name" to work around that deficiency. Kind of a > catch-22 if you ask me. Perhaps we should propose that as a feature for > F10. From a quick look into my menu it seems like now most of the software installed in gnome by default use "Name Generic Name" in their desktop files (like Epiphany Web Browser), which I think is the best way to do that. But I am well aware that other people might think otherwise. The problem with GIMP is however that GNU Image Manipulation Program is not a generic name but it's full name (GIMP is just an acronym). And while the long name is quite suited for standalone usage (i.e. without the generic name part displayed) GIMP might be better for the long variant, though I am not certainly sure what would its generic name be, perhaps "Raster Graphics Editor" (following the example of "Inkscape Vector Graphics Editor"). But I agree with Nicu that the most important thing is consistency. It indeed would make sense to propose that as a feature for F10, regardless which format for display we decide to use... And if such a feature would be indeed proposed, I think it should be worked on with upstream as much as possible. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 11:42:35 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:42:35 +0100 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206528868.4412.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <1206528868.4412.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <64b14b300803260442x15a90e39sf7c68832e6e8a9d3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Alexander Larsson wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 11:30 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I have a few ideas that IMO would make Fedora more usable as a general > > desktop and developer platform: > > > > 2. have gnome clipboard manager installed by default (glipper gnome applet) > > This causes all sorts of bad problems. > See e.g.: > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2008-March/msg00053.html Can you explain this in plain english for non-developers. I have been using klipper and glipper on gnome for years without any issues so I don't get that "all sorts of bad problems" is causes because it works perfectly for me. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From benny+usenet at amorsen.dk Wed Mar 26 11:44:13 2008 From: benny+usenet at amorsen.dk (Benny Amorsen) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:44:13 +0100 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: Gian Paolo Mureddu writes: > but being as /sbin paths are meant for administrative tasks, I > actually do see having them as part of a regular user's PATH a > potential security risk. Right, we keep them from trying to run dangerous commands by putting those commands into a separate directory. Let's just hope they never learn to type /sbin/ in front of anything. Maybe we should remove the / key from their keyboards, but then they might copy/paste it... What to do... /Benny From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 11:50:11 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:50:11 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <1206523915.2840.15.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> <1206493061.3158.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803260123j2804cb41v4e276ffdb244760f@mail.gmail.com> <1206523915.2840.15.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> Message-ID: <64b14b300803260450w42700087y9e37895097986d1e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 09:23 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating : > > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a > > > > non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations > > > > and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers, > > > > "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also... > > > > let's be practical please. > > > > > > I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're > > > the ones that changed the menu name. > > > > > > > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the > > name to gimp if that fits better, > > As I already said, this is not practicable as we need to care for all > languages. AFAIK, we don't have infrastructure for forked translatable > strings. > > > > most upstream gnome people to who I > > talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream > > customize as they need for them. > > > > I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling > > was spot on or wrong. > > Do you plan to do that via mail (gimp-developer at lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU) > or via IRC (#gimp @ GIMPNet)? If the latter, it would be nice if you > could ping me (my nick is "nils") as I may have something to add about > the technical aspects (.desktop files etc.). > > > Nils I thought through mailing list but it looks like they have some problems becase mailing list subscription page seams to be down so I'm now going to IRC - I'll ping you. Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 12:42:13 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:42:13 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 12:02 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > but being as /sbin paths are > meant for administrative tasks, I actually do see having them as part of > a regular user's PATH a potential security risk. That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you don't want your users running them, set the permissions on the binary, or better yet, have the binary check the EUID of the caller. If non-root, display that the command is for root users, but also allow the user to get --help and other usage or informational output from the command. Just don't allow non-root users to apply anything. There really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Mar 26 12:55:38 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:55:38 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206536138.2450.21.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:42 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 12:02 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > but being as /sbin paths are > > meant for administrative tasks, I actually do see having them as part of > > a regular user's PATH a potential security risk. > > That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you > don't want your users running them, set the permissions on the binary, > or better yet, have the binary check the EUID of the caller. If > non-root, display that the command is for root users, but also allow the > user to get --help and other usage or informational output from the > command. Just don't allow non-root users to apply anything. There > really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different > directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion. > +1 -sv From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:13:20 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:13:20 +0100 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206536138.2450.21.camel@cutter> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206536138.2450.21.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <64b14b300803260613p4e0bfa28q1b92805d33727d72@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 1:55 PM, seth vidal wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:42 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 12:02 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > > but being as /sbin paths are > > > meant for administrative tasks, I actually do see having them as part of > > > a regular user's PATH a potential security risk. > > > > That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you > > don't want your users running them, set the permissions on the binary, > > or better yet, have the binary check the EUID of the caller. If > > non-root, display that the command is for root users, but also allow the > > user to get --help and other usage or informational output from the > > command. Just don't allow non-root users to apply anything. There > > really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different > > directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion. > > > > +1 > -sv I'll post a RFE in BZ regarding this issue. What component should I choose? Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 13:14:10 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:14:10 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803260613p4e0bfa28q1b92805d33727d72@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206536138.2450.21.camel@cutter> <64b14b300803260613p4e0bfa28q1b92805d33727d72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206537250.3158.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 14:13 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > I'll post a RFE in BZ regarding this issue. What component should I > choose? Theoretically "distribution" but Will Woods is already working on a Feature proposal for Fedora 10 to fix this sillyness. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:15:16 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:15:16 +0100 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <64b14b300803260615r6a2ef8f7k93b7aea86842ccc0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Benny Amorsen wrote: > Gian Paolo Mureddu writes: > > > but being as /sbin paths are meant for administrative tasks, I > > actually do see having them as part of a regular user's PATH a > > potential security risk. > > Right, we keep them from trying to run dangerous commands by putting > those commands into a separate directory. Let's just hope they never > learn to type /sbin/ in front of anything. Maybe we should remove the > / key from their keyboards, but then they might copy/paste it... What > to do... > > > /Benny LOL +1 You can pull out "/" just leave the "anykey" button :) Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:09:20 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:09:20 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <1206523915.2840.15.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> <1206493061.3158.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803260123j2804cb41v4e276ffdb244760f@mail.gmail.com> <1206523915.2840.15.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> Message-ID: <64b14b300803260609o7a3b529fo884bb3636d2401c9@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 09:23 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating : > > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a > > > > non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations > > > > and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers, > > > > "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also... > > > > let's be practical please. > > > > > > I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're > > > the ones that changed the menu name. > > > > > > > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the > > name to gimp if that fits better, > > As I already said, this is not practicable as we need to care for all > languages. AFAIK, we don't have infrastructure for forked translatable > strings. > > > > most upstream gnome people to who I > > talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream > > customize as they need for them. > > > > I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling > > was spot on or wrong. > > Do you plan to do that via mail (gimp-developer at lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU) > or via IRC (#gimp @ GIMPNet)? If the latter, it would be nice if you > could ping me (my nick is "nils") as I may have something to add about > the technical aspects (.desktop files etc.). > > > Nils I was wrong. Developers want this so that "GNU Image Manipulation Program" name gets more know. I argued that that is killing their already established "GIMP" brand name but that is it. They also said that Fedora could always patch it if that is what Fedora Project decides... My personal opinions still stands but at lease we know what is the upstream opinion regarding naming. Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From inode0 at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:18:39 2008 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:18:39 -0500 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating : > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 12:02 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > but being as /sbin paths are > > meant for administrative tasks, I actually do see having them as part of > > a regular user's PATH a potential security risk. > > That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you > don't want your users running them, set the permissions on the binary, > or better yet, have the binary check the EUID of the caller. If > non-root, display that the command is for root users, but also allow the > user to get --help and other usage or informational output from the > command. Just don't allow non-root users to apply anything. There > really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different > directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion. Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it? The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS? John From debarshi.ray at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:27:03 2008 From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:57:03 +0530 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3170f42f0803260627x67acfafev3c516520f27c430e@mail.gmail.com> > That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you > [...] > really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different > directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion. +1 Why was this (/sbin, /usr/sbin) arrangement used in the first place? Cheers, Debarshi -- "From what we get, we can make a living; what we give, however, makes a life." -- Arthur Ashe From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 13:28:04 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:28:04 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206538084.3158.100.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:18 -0500, inode0 wrote: > > Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it? > > The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be > located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there > does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is > cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than > adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are > cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS? I think the idea is to place symlinks in (/usr)/sbin as par of a fhs-compat package. Otherwise the bins actually go in (/usr)/bin. "root only" is extremely muddy these days, especially because as non-root I'd like to explore syntax options and usage statements before I invoke the command with sudo. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Mar 26 13:30:08 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:30:08 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206538208.2450.27.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:18 -0500, inode0 wrote: > 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating : > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 12:02 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > > but being as /sbin paths are > > > meant for administrative tasks, I actually do see having them as part of > > > a regular user's PATH a potential security risk. > > > > That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you > > don't want your users running them, set the permissions on the binary, > > or better yet, have the binary check the EUID of the caller. If > > non-root, display that the command is for root users, but also allow the > > user to get --help and other usage or informational output from the > > command. Just don't allow non-root users to apply anything. There > > really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different > > directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion. > > Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it? > > The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be > located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there > does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is > cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than > adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are > cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS? 1. The FHS makes no rules about the default PATH setting for users/root 2. The FHS has no problems with symlinks for the files it requires in /sbin and /usr/sbin So changing the defaults away from a 'hidden' /sbin and /usr/sbin would not violate the FHS. -sv From nphilipp at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 13:34:31 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:34:31 +0100 Subject: Disable SELinux in LiveCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1206538471.14594.2.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 06:52 -0400, Robi wrote: > While I was using Fedora 9 Beta (x86_64) GNOME LiveCD, I tried to > change my keyboard layout to Croatian, and got SELinux warning. I > think that configurating SELinux to change keyboard layout can be > pretty frustrating to new users, so my advise is disable it while in > LiveCD mode. As far as I know, the SELinux is really not needed in > LiveCD mode... The advice of switching SELinux off is almost always completely wrong. A (hypothetical?) SELinux-protected web browser helps users of Live media as well. Why not just fix configuring the keyboard instead? Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From inode0 at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:55:26 2008 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:55:26 -0500 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206538208.2450.27.camel@cutter> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206538208.2450.27.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:30 AM, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:18 -0500, inode0 wrote: > > Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it? > > > > The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be > > located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there > > does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is > > cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than > > adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are > > cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS? > > 1. The FHS makes no rules about the default PATH setting for users/root Oh, I did not mean to imply that it did. My minor objection to getting rid of /sbin abstractly is that as a normal user I just don't really want to be exposed to the programs I can't execute in a meaningful way as a normal user. > 2. The FHS has no problems with symlinks for the files it requires > in /sbin and /usr/sbin I was wondering about whether the FHS objected to "cross linking" programs that are used by both root and normal users that reside in /sbin with symlinks in /usr/bin which is in the user's path already?! John From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Mar 26 14:04:03 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:04:03 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206538208.2450.27.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1206540243.2450.29.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:55 -0500, inode0 wrote: > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:30 AM, seth vidal wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:18 -0500, inode0 wrote: > > > Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it? > > > > > > The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be > > > located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there > > > does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is > > > cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than > > > adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are > > > cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS? > > > > 1. The FHS makes no rules about the default PATH setting for users/root > > Oh, I did not mean to imply that it did. My minor objection to getting > rid of /sbin abstractly is that as a normal user I just don't really > want to be exposed to the programs I can't execute in a meaningful way > as a normal user. > > > 2. The FHS has no problems with symlinks for the files it requires > > in /sbin and /usr/sbin > > I was wondering about whether the FHS objected to "cross linking" > programs that are used by both root and normal users that reside in > /sbin with symlinks in /usr/bin which is in the user's path already?! Unless there's an addendum I missed they make no comments about it whatsoever. -sv From alexl at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 14:13:16 2008 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:13:16 +0100 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803260442x15a90e39sf7c68832e6e8a9d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <1206528868.4412.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803260442x15a90e39sf7c68832e6e8a9d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206540796.4412.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 12:42 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Alexander Larsson wrote: > > > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 11:30 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > I have a few ideas that IMO would make Fedora more usable as a general > > > desktop and developer platform: > > > > > > > 2. have gnome clipboard manager installed by default (glipper gnome applet) > > > > This causes all sorts of bad problems. > > See e.g.: > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2008-March/msg00053.html > > Can you explain this in plain english for non-developers. I have been > using klipper and glipper on gnome for years without any issues so I > don't get that "all sorts of bad problems" is causes because it works > perfectly for me. The thread I linked to contains a couple of real-life examples. Basically it forces every selection change to be copied to another process, and the selection changes all the time and can be large. This can be very slow. It also means you're not able to do smart things when you cut and paste inside an application (which is the common operation, and which basically every application uses). From nphilipp at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 14:15:01 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:15:01 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <1206531139.1458.24.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206459712.3606.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1206524943.2840.30.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> <1206531139.1458.24.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: <1206540901.14594.16.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 12:32 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 10:49 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 17:06 +0100, Robi wrote: > > > So why don't you just put: > > > "GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)" > > > etc.... Everybody happy, right? > > > > Weeell. This would mean that somebody would have to whip the GNOME panel > > into shape first so that it actually displays "Generic Name (Name)". > > Then everybody and their uncle would have to fix desktop files which > > have generic names as "Name" to work around that deficiency. Kind of a > > catch-22 if you ask me. Perhaps we should propose that as a feature for > > F10. > From a quick look into my menu it seems like now most of the software > installed in gnome by default use "Name Generic Name" in their desktop > files (like Epiphany Web Browser), which I think is the best way to do > that. But I am well aware that other people might think otherwise. The bad thing is that this is often done by having "Name=Name GenericName" and having no GenericName instead of keeping those separate. We really should get that situation fixed for F10, i.e. so that the desktop files use Name, GenericName consistently (as per spec) and the desktop environments (i.e. panels e.a.) use these as per spec. > The problem with GIMP is however that GNU Image Manipulation Program is > not a generic name but it's full name (GIMP is just an acronym). And > while the long name is quite suited for standalone usage (i.e. without > the generic name part displayed) GIMP might be better for the long > variant, though I am not certainly sure what would its generic name be, > perhaps "Raster Graphics Editor" (following the example of "Inkscape > Vector Graphics Editor"). I've just talked to upstream about this and they're not too happy about (ab)using the system with "Name=GIMP" and "GenericName=GNU Image Manipulation Program". Perhaps the spec should be extended to have an AbbreviatedName key, so gimp.desktop could have: ... AbbreviatedName=GIMP Name=GNU Image Manipulation Program GenericName=Image Manipulation Program Comment=Manipulate your images ... GenericName could even be left empty as it's a subset of Name. The menus could then have it (based on if the user prefers short or long names) like this: Name/AbbreviatedName (GenericName) or alternatively (if there is not GenericName) Name/AbbreviatedName and the comment as the tooltip of the menu entry. This would even work with legacy (Name and GenericName combined into Name) desktop files. > But I agree with Nicu that the most important thing is consistency. It > indeed would make sense to propose that as a feature for F10, regardless > which format for display we decide to use... And if such a feature would > be indeed proposed, I think it should be worked on with upstream as much > as possible. Yes. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From notting at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 15:04:18 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:04:18 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206538084.3158.100.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206538084.3158.100.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080326150418.GB9856@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jesse Keating (jkeating at redhat.com) said: > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:18 -0500, inode0 wrote: > > > > Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it? > > > > The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be > > located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there > > does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is > > cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than > > adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are > > cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS? > > I think the idea is to place symlinks in (/usr)/sbin as par of a > fhs-compat package. Otherwise the bins actually go in (/usr)/bin. > "root only" is extremely muddy these days, especially because as > non-root I'd like to explore syntax options and usage statements before > I invoke the command with sudo. Why not just change the path rather than litter the world with symlinks? (Also, this is getting offtopic for -desktop rather fast.) Bill From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 16:51:54 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:51:54 -0800 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803260123j2804cb41v4e276ffdb244760f@mail.gmail.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> <1206493061.3158.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803260123j2804cb41v4e276ffdb244760f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803260951o161753e9m108cdc45033723f3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the > name to gimp if that fits better, most upstream gnome people to who I > talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream > customize as they need for them. > > I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling > was spot on or wrong. > whether we are allowed to do it or not is not the point. The argue you made was about brand recognition. As a downstream, should we be telling the upstream project how their brand should be handled? I really don't think so. We all recognize that brands have value because they are recognizable. But if a specific project wants to change their brand..that is THEIR choice..because its THEIR project. As distributors of 'well known' applications... we need to take our cues from the upstream project with regard to handling 'branding'. Perhaps the project leads for GIMP are actually trying to make an explicit effort to rebrand it so the non acronym becomes the recognized name. If so, then we should respect that. If you want this changed... get the upstream project to revert back to using the GIMP as the name instead of the longer name in the desktop file. For all we know this is a deliberate attempt to rebrand by the upstream project. Arguing about adding useful functional descriptions to how we generally list applications is one thing. And arguing that we should hide all non-functional names is another thing worthy of discourse. But to delibrately reinterpret or shorten the chosen project name because it doesn't suite us is quite another. Talk to the GIMP project authors and figure out what they intend concerning branding. Don't make unilateral decisions over interpretations of application names. We've already recognized that this is a brand issue...at that point you MUST seek clarification as to what the upstream project intends in terms of branding. Hey I know let's revert firefox back to firebird and forget that the project deliberately rebranded even though the firebird name was widely used for the browser up to that point. -jef"While we are at it, let's change the name of rhythmbox to rbox in Fedora, because I consistently misspell rhythm."spaleta -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Wed Mar 26 21:12:10 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:12:10 -0600 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> Jesse Keating escribi?: > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 12:02 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > >> but being as /sbin paths are >> meant for administrative tasks, I actually do see having them as part of >> a regular user's PATH a potential security risk. >> > > That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you > don't want your users running them, set the permissions on the binary, > or better yet, have the binary check the EUID of the caller. If > non-root, display that the command is for root users, but also allow the > user to get --help and other usage or informational output from the > command. Just don't allow non-root users to apply anything. There > really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different > directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion. > > Sarcastic disclaimer. Why not install all binaries into /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin and be done with it, then? Why EVEN have another path, anyway? Better yet, why don't we follow Ubuntu and make sudo the default, make regular users have admin rights! Why do we even need root? What's that? Geeze, I mean why even keep an ancient file system layout? From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 15:06:58 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 16:06:58 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <1206540901.14594.16.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206459712.3606.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1206524943.2840.30.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> <1206531139.1458.24.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <1206540901.14594.16.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300803260806g5ee53fbbva052342376d2766e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 12:32 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 10:49 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 17:06 +0100, Robi wrote: > > > > So why don't you just put: > > > > "GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)" > > > > etc.... Everybody happy, right? > > > > > > Weeell. This would mean that somebody would have to whip the GNOME panel > > > into shape first so that it actually displays "Generic Name (Name)". > > > Then everybody and their uncle would have to fix desktop files which > > > have generic names as "Name" to work around that deficiency. Kind of a > > > catch-22 if you ask me. Perhaps we should propose that as a feature for > > > F10. > > From a quick look into my menu it seems like now most of the software > > installed in gnome by default use "Name Generic Name" in their desktop > > files (like Epiphany Web Browser), which I think is the best way to do > > that. But I am well aware that other people might think otherwise. > > The bad thing is that this is often done by having "Name=Name > GenericName" and having no GenericName instead of keeping those > separate. We really should get that situation fixed for F10, i.e. so > that the desktop files use Name, GenericName consistently (as per spec) > and the desktop environments (i.e. panels e.a.) use these as per spec. > > > > The problem with GIMP is however that GNU Image Manipulation Program is > > not a generic name but it's full name (GIMP is just an acronym). And > > while the long name is quite suited for standalone usage (i.e. without > > the generic name part displayed) GIMP might be better for the long > > variant, though I am not certainly sure what would its generic name be, > > perhaps "Raster Graphics Editor" (following the example of "Inkscape > > Vector Graphics Editor"). > > I've just talked to upstream about this and they're not too happy about > (ab)using the system with "Name=GIMP" and "GenericName=GNU Image > Manipulation Program". Perhaps the spec should be extended to have an > AbbreviatedName key, so gimp.desktop could have: > > ... > AbbreviatedName=GIMP > Name=GNU Image Manipulation Program > GenericName=Image Manipulation Program > Comment=Manipulate your images > ... > > GenericName could even be left empty as it's a subset of Name. The menus > could then have it (based on if the user prefers short or long names) > like this: > > Name/AbbreviatedName (GenericName) > > or alternatively (if there is not GenericName) > > Name/AbbreviatedName > > and the comment as the tooltip of the menu entry. This would even work > with legacy (Name and GenericName combined into Name) desktop files. > > > > But I agree with Nicu that the most important thing is consistency. It > > indeed would make sense to propose that as a feature for F10, regardless > > which format for display we decide to use... And if such a feature would > > be indeed proposed, I think it should be worked on with upstream as much > > as possible. > > Yes. > > > > Nils Correct me if I'm wrong but they said that GenericName should be "Image Editor" and for the rest of this +1 from me. Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From mcepl at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 22:59:07 2008 From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:59:07 +0100 Subject: Disable SELinux in LiveCD References: Message-ID: On 2008-03-26, 10:52 GMT, Robi wrote: > While I was using Fedora 9 Beta (x86_64) GNOME LiveCD, I tried to > change my keyboard layout to Croatian, and got SELinux > warning. And number of the bug is ...? Mat?j From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Mar 27 00:29:14 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:29:14 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 15:12 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Sarcastic disclaimer. > > Why not install all binaries into /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin and be > done with it, then? Why EVEN have another path, anyway? Better yet, why > don't we follow Ubuntu and make sudo the default, make regular users > have admin rights! Why do we even need root? What's that? Geeze, I mean > why even keep an ancient file system layout? Believe it or not, these are all pretty useful suggestions. Links to (/usr)/sbin can be maintained for legacy or FHS compliance. However due to shortcomings in RPM this isn't feasible. Instead we'll just munge the normal user's path so that (s)he doesn't have to go hunting for useful tools. Sudo should (optionally) be the default for the first user added, like say through firstboot. A checkbox that would have to be cleared that will drop the user in the wheel group which by default has sudo rights (that way we don't have to munge the sudors file). "root" is a legacy concept. Either the local user is also the admin, or the admin is a site wide admin where local root accounts are just jokes and instead things are done as sudo, or through config management systems. I also agree that ancient filesystem layouts are needless confusion. They (almost) made since way back in the day, but fear of chance has kept them coming forward into modern day operating systems where they're just not needed, and only add confusion and frustration. "Where do I install this binary into? What level man page do I give this?" etc... -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From katzj at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 12:45:10 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:45:10 -0400 Subject: Disable SELinux in LiveCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1206535510.12158.32.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 06:52 -0400, Robi wrote: > While I was using Fedora 9 Beta (x86_64) GNOME LiveCD, I tried to > change my keyboard layout to Croatian, and got SELinux warning. I > think that configurating SELinux to change keyboard layout can be > pretty frustrating to new users, so my advise is disable it while in > LiveCD mode. As far as I know, the SELinux is really not needed in > LiveCD mode... This is the wrong answer, instead the bug should be fixed. Did you file the avc? Jeremy From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 27 01:20:18 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:20:18 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206580818.2450.89.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 20:29 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > I also agree that ancient filesystem layouts are needless confusion. > They (almost) made since way back in the day, but fear of chance has > kept them coming forward into modern day operating systems where they're > just not needed, and only add confusion and frustration. "Where do I > install this binary into? What level man page do I give this?" etc... Indeed the manpage level stuff is just chock full of crazy -sv From robi.petranovic at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 08:36:58 2008 From: robi.petranovic at gmail.com (Robi) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:36:58 +0100 Subject: Disable SELinux in LiveCD In-Reply-To: <1206535510.12158.32.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1206535510.12158.32.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 06:52 -0400, Robi wrote: > > > > While I was using Fedora 9 Beta (x86_64) GNOME LiveCD, I tried to > > change my keyboard layout to Croatian, and got SELinux warning. I > > think that configurating SELinux to change keyboard layout can be > > pretty frustrating to new users, so my advise is disable it while in > > LiveCD mode. As far as I know, the SELinux is really not needed in > > LiveCD mode... > > This is the wrong answer, instead the bug should be fixed. Did you file > the avc? > > Jeremy There is already a lots bugs reports about keyboard layout... I'll post a comment somewhere it's a SELinux denial From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 09:28:43 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:28:43 +0100 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <64b14b300803270228o573a5a4er12ce4423e0ab3f4f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:12 PM, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Jesse Keating escribi?: > > > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 12:02 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > > >> but being as /sbin paths are > >> meant for administrative tasks, I actually do see having them as part of > >> a regular user's PATH a potential security risk. > >> > > > > That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you > > don't want your users running them, set the permissions on the binary, > > or better yet, have the binary check the EUID of the caller. If > > non-root, display that the command is for root users, but also allow the > > user to get --help and other usage or informational output from the > > command. Just don't allow non-root users to apply anything. There > > really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different > > directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion. > > > > > Sarcastic disclaimer. > > Why not install all binaries into /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin and be > done with it, then? Why EVEN have another path, anyway? Better yet, why > don't we follow Ubuntu and make sudo the default, make regular users > have admin rights! Why do we even need root? What's that? Geeze, I mean > why even keep an ancient file system layout? sudo adds also security so that is also a bonus. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 09:09:04 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:09:04 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803260951o161753e9m108cdc45033723f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> <1206493061.3158.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803260123j2804cb41v4e276ffdb244760f@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803260951o161753e9m108cdc45033723f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300803270209j6fb3ae22ra11f4ff0ed2baf2c@mail.gmail.com> 2008/3/26 Jeff Spaleta : > > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Valent Turkovic > wrote: > > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the > > name to gimp if that fits better, most upstream gnome people to who I > > talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream > > customize as they need for them. > > > > I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling > > was spot on or wrong. > > > > > whether we are allowed to do it or not is not the point. > > The argue you made was about brand recognition. As a downstream, should we > be telling the upstream project how their brand should be handled? I really > don't think so. We all recognize that brands have value because they are > recognizable. But if a specific project wants to change their brand..that is > THEIR choice..because its THEIR project. > > As distributors of 'well known' applications... we need to take our cues > from the upstream project with regard to handling 'branding'. Perhaps the > project leads for GIMP are actually trying to make an explicit effort to > rebrand it so the non acronym becomes the recognized name. If so, then we > should respect that. If you want this changed... get the upstream project > to revert back to using the GIMP as the name instead of the longer name in > the desktop file. For all we know this is a deliberate attempt to rebrand > by the upstream project. After speaking with upstream it seams that that is the case. They want more recognition of the name "GNU Image Manipulation Program" and even if I personally think that is wrong I respect their decision. Fedora has "respect upstream" attitude so it should respect their decision... Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From robi.petranovic at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 09:45:04 2008 From: robi.petranovic at gmail.com (Robi) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:45:04 +0100 Subject: Disable SELinux in LiveCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: > On 2008-03-26, 10:52 GMT, Robi wrote: > > While I was using Fedora 9 Beta (x86_64) GNOME LiveCD, I tried to > > change my keyboard layout to Croatian, and got SELinux > > warning. > > And number of the bug is ...? > > Mat?j #403791 > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Thu Mar 27 09:50:59 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 03:50:59 -0600 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206580818.2450.89.camel@cutter> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206580818.2450.89.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <47EB6E03.8090701@prodigy.net.mx> seth vidal escribi?: > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 20:29 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > >> I also agree that ancient filesystem layouts are needless confusion. >> They (almost) made since way back in the day, but fear of chance has >> kept them coming forward into modern day operating systems where they're >> just not needed, and only add confusion and frustration. "Where do I >> install this binary into? What level man page do I give this?" etc... >> > > Indeed the manpage level stuff is just chock full of crazy > > -sv > > > I thought info was meant to obsolete man? From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Thu Mar 27 09:56:43 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 03:56:43 -0600 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803270228o573a5a4er12ce4423e0ab3f4f@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <64b14b300803270228o573a5a4er12ce4423e0ab3f4f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47EB6F5B.9010809@prodigy.net.mx> Valent Turkovic escribi?: > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:12 PM, Gian Paolo Mureddu > wrote: > >> Jesse Keating escribi?: >> >> >> >>> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 12:02 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: >>> >> > >> >> but being as /sbin paths are >> >> meant for administrative tasks, I actually do see having them as part of >> >> a regular user's PATH a potential security risk. >> >> >> > >> > That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you >> > don't want your users running them, set the permissions on the binary, >> > or better yet, have the binary check the EUID of the caller. If >> > non-root, display that the command is for root users, but also allow the >> > user to get --help and other usage or informational output from the >> > command. Just don't allow non-root users to apply anything. There >> > really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different >> > directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion. >> > >> > >> Sarcastic disclaimer. >> >> Why not install all binaries into /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin and be >> done with it, then? Why EVEN have another path, anyway? Better yet, why >> don't we follow Ubuntu and make sudo the default, make regular users >> have admin rights! Why do we even need root? What's that? Geeze, I mean >> why even keep an ancient file system layout? >> > > sudo adds also security so that is also a bonus. > > Valent. > > Not much... users more often than not use very, very weak passwords easily crackable. With sudo enabled by default that imposes a serious security risk. Also there are things that can't be done with sudo like quick scripting of the CLI (say a one liner for-in loop with file operations, or at least I haven't found an efficient enough way to use them in sudo, hence I much rather prefer a dedicated root account). Certainly the paradigm of root is that of the system administrators, but it certainly is better to have the users and administrative tasks separated. Policy Kit looks like a more robust solution than sudo and still allows for a full blown root account. I guess the bottom line is with each paradigm there are compromises that have to be made... The point is "which compromises does Fedora want to do make"? From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Thu Mar 27 10:01:51 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 04:01:51 -0600 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803270209j6fb3ae22ra11f4ff0ed2baf2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206402385.13520.1.camel@kennedy> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> <1206493061.3158.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803260123j2804cb41v4e276ffdb244760f@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803260951o161753e9m108cdc45033723f3@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300803270209j6fb3ae22ra11f4ff0ed2baf2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47EB708F.7040809@prodigy.net.mx> Valent Turkovic escribi?: > After speaking with upstream it seams that that is the case. They want > more recognition of the name "GNU Image Manipulation Program" and even > if I personally think that is wrong I respect their decision. Fedora > has "respect upstream" attitude so it should respect their decision... > > Cheers, > Valent. > > /disclaimer: The following comment is only a rant, disregard as easily, I had to get it out of my chest: While we are at it, decomposing acronyms why call it "GNU Image Manipulation Program" at all, why not call it "GNU is Not Unix Image Manipulation Program", instead? Geeze!... I know, I know it is none of my business, but this looks like RMS-type of crusade to get the "GNU" brand better recognized as "Linux" took off much more than "GNU" From mcepl at redhat.com Thu Mar 27 12:05:42 2008 From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:05:42 +0100 Subject: Disable SELinux in LiveCD References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:45:04 +0100, Robi scripst: > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: >> On 2008-03-26, 10:52 GMT, Robi wrote: >> > While I was using Fedora 9 Beta (x86_64) GNOME LiveCD, I tried to >> > change my keyboard layout to Croatian, and got SELinux warning. >> >> And number of the bug is ...? >> >> Mat?j > #403791 Thanks a lot. Mat?j -- The content of this message is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License, Some Rights Reserved. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/ From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 12:32:53 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:32:53 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <47EB708F.7040809@prodigy.net.mx> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> <1206493061.3158.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803260123j2804cb41v4e276ffdb244760f@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803260951o161753e9m108cdc45033723f3@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300803270209j6fb3ae22ra11f4ff0ed2baf2c@mail.gmail.com> <47EB708F.7040809@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <64b14b300803270532k15763ff7g6a2917401620b3fd@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Valent Turkovic escribi?: > > > After speaking with upstream it seams that that is the case. They want > > more recognition of the name "GNU Image Manipulation Program" and even > > if I personally think that is wrong I respect their decision. Fedora > > has "respect upstream" attitude so it should respect their decision... > > > > Cheers, > > Valent. > > > > > > /disclaimer: The following comment is only a rant, disregard as easily, > I had to get it out of my chest: > > While we are at it, decomposing acronyms why call it "GNU Image > Manipulation Program" at all, why not call it "GNU is Not Unix Image > Manipulation Program", instead? Geeze!... I know, I know it is none of > my business, but this looks like RMS-type of crusade to get the "GNU" > brand better recognized as "Linux" took off much more than "GNU" That is exactly how I feel. Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 27 13:11:49 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:11:49 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <47EB6E03.8090701@prodigy.net.mx> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206580818.2450.89.camel@cutter> <47EB6E03.8090701@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <1206623509.2450.101.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 03:50 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > seth vidal escribi?: > > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 20:29 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > >> I also agree that ancient filesystem layouts are needless confusion. > >> They (almost) made since way back in the day, but fear of chance has > >> kept them coming forward into modern day operating systems where they're > >> just not needed, and only add confusion and frustration. "Where do I > >> install this binary into? What level man page do I give this?" etc... > >> > > > > Indeed the manpage level stuff is just chock full of crazy > > > > -sv > > > > > > > > > I thought info was meant to obsolete man? I wouldn't hold my breath. -s From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Mar 27 13:15:05 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:15:05 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206623509.2450.101.camel@cutter> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206580818.2450.89.camel@cutter> <47EB6E03.8090701@prodigy.net.mx> <1206623509.2450.101.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1206623705.3158.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 09:11 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > I thought info was meant to obsolete man? > > I wouldn't hold my breath. Can I get an info viewer that's as simple to use as man? I always seem to get rather lost in info, and have to quit, start over just to get back to the freaking menu. Forgive me for not being an emacs user... -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 27 13:20:56 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:20:56 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206623705.3158.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206580818.2450.89.camel@cutter> <47EB6E03.8090701@prodigy.net.mx> <1206623509.2450.101.camel@cutter> <1206623705.3158.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206624056.2450.103.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 09:15 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 09:11 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > I thought info was meant to obsolete man? > > > > I wouldn't hold my breath. > > Can I get an info viewer that's as simple to use as man? I always seem > to get rather lost in info, and have to quit, start over just to get > back to the freaking menu. Forgive me for not being an emacs user... same issue here. -sv From inode0 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 13:29:23 2008 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 08:29:23 -0500 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206623705.3158.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206580818.2450.89.camel@cutter> <47EB6E03.8090701@prodigy.net.mx> <1206623509.2450.101.camel@cutter> <1206623705.3158.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: 2008/3/27 Jesse Keating : > On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 09:11 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > I thought info was meant to obsolete man? > > > > I wouldn't hold my breath. > > Can I get an info viewer that's as simple to use as man? I always seem > to get rather lost in info, and have to quit, start over just to get > back to the freaking menu. Forgive me for not being an emacs user... pinfo is about as simple as lynx John From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Mar 27 13:32:59 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:32:59 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206580818.2450.89.camel@cutter> <47EB6E03.8090701@prodigy.net.mx> <1206623509.2450.101.camel@cutter> <1206623705.3158.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206624779.3158.170.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 08:29 -0500, inode0 wrote: > pinfo is about as simple as lynx pinfo is slightly better. At least left and right arrow keys do something sensible. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jstanley at linux-advocacy.com Thu Mar 27 16:22:57 2008 From: jstanley at linux-advocacy.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:22:57 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206623705.3158.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206580818.2450.89.camel@cutter> <47EB6E03.8090701@prodigy.net.mx> <1206623509.2450.101.camel@cutter> <1206623705.3158.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1f2c5e140803270922g5282b7a3iaa42dbdad7e0b4a0@mail.gmail.com> 2008/3/27 Jesse Keating : > Can I get an info viewer that's as simple to use as man? I always seem > to get rather lost in info, and have to quit, start over just to get > back to the freaking menu. Forgive me for not being an emacs user... +20,000 From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 16:40:40 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 08:40:40 -0800 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <47EB708F.7040809@prodigy.net.mx> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <47E8ADEE.8030201@nicubunu.ro> <1206465692.1458.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <64b14b300803251209s70e2d3d0o1ec2931f36d64d54@mail.gmail.com> <1206493061.3158.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300803260123j2804cb41v4e276ffdb244760f@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803260951o161753e9m108cdc45033723f3@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300803270209j6fb3ae22ra11f4ff0ed2baf2c@mail.gmail.com> <47EB708F.7040809@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <604aa7910803270940t654348d5i2c7dc88cc5e53b41@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:01 AM, Gian Paolo Mureddu > > While we are at it, decomposing acronyms why call it "GNU Image > Manipulation Program" at all, why not call it "GNU is Not Unix Image > Manipulation Program", instead? Geeze!... I know, I know it is none of > my business, but this looks like RMS-type of crusade to get the "GNU" > brand better recognized as "Linux" took off much more than "GNU" > Because the exact branding is the upstream project's decision. FULL STOP. You can bitch and moan all you like.. but do it upstream. If the upstream project wants to spell out GNU... then they get to do it. If they want to change the name completely with every release...they get to do it. I will not excuse any more pointless ranting on a fedora list about this just because its easy for you to do here. If you care about it..write upstream. And if you don't care about it.. zip it. What we get to decide is whether we are going to use the Proper project name or whether we are going to use the Generic Name in our menu.. or both... and how consistently we do either across our applicationscape. The Proper project name is what it is, and its the project's choice. The generic name I feel we have some ability to tweak if needed. In this case that's really not an issue. -jef"will probably be writing to upstream himself concerning branding"spaleta -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walters at redhat.com Thu Mar 27 16:44:04 2008 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:44:04 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206623705.3158.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206580818.2450.89.camel@cutter> <47EB6E03.8090701@prodigy.net.mx> <1206623509.2450.101.camel@cutter> <1206623705.3158.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206636244.1337.0.camel@space-ghost.verbum.private> On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 09:15 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 09:11 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > I thought info was meant to obsolete man? > > > > I wouldn't hold my breath. > > Can I get an info viewer that's as simple to use as man? I always seem > to get rather lost in info, and have to quit, start over just to get > back to the freaking menu. Forgive me for not being an emacs user... yelp supports man,info,and docbook. From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 16:45:34 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 08:45:34 -0800 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910803270945h5d1bb28ao5fd72274dc8a45c0@mail.gmail.com> 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating : > "root" is a legacy concept. Either the local user is also the admin, or > the admin is a site wide admin where local root accounts are just jokes > and instead things are done as sudo, or through config management > systems. > I'm still dropping to root on systems that I'm not sitting in front of when I need to troubleshoot hardware. We'd have to make sure that all the devices which get dynamically created get the correct permissions such that an admin group such as 'wheel' can make use of them by default. -jef -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Mar 27 17:10:06 2008 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:10:06 -0400 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803270945h5d1bb28ao5fd72274dc8a45c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803270945h5d1bb28ao5fd72274dc8a45c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206637806.3158.184.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 08:45 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating : > "root" is a legacy concept. Either the local user is also the admin, or > the admin is a site wide admin where local root accounts are just jokes > and instead things are done as sudo, or through config management > systems. > > I'm still dropping to root on systems that I'm not sitting in front of when I need to troubleshoot hardware. We'd have to make sure that all the devices which get dynamically created get the correct permissions such that an admin group such as 'wheel' can make use of them by default. > > I don't disagree. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (jkeating.livejournal.com) Fedora Project (fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nphilipp at redhat.com Fri Mar 28 09:44:04 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:44:04 +0100 Subject: few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop In-Reply-To: <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300803250330q1aeb24dbsda367a7dc9db91d8@mail.gmail.com> <47E93E21.1080504@prodigy.net.mx> <1206535333.3158.90.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47EABC2A.3050000@prodigy.net.mx> <1206577754.3158.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206697444.3572.24.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 20:29 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 15:12 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > Sarcastic disclaimer. > > > > Why not install all binaries into /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin and be > > done with it, then? Why EVEN have another path, anyway? Better yet, why > > don't we follow Ubuntu and make sudo the default, make regular users > > have admin rights! Why do we even need root? What's that? Geeze, I mean > > why even keep an ancient file system layout? > > Believe it or not, these are all pretty useful suggestions. > > Links to (/usr)/sbin can be maintained for legacy or FHS compliance. > However due to shortcomings in RPM this isn't feasible. Instead we'll > just munge the normal user's path so that (s)he doesn't have to go > hunting for useful tools. Hm. Most of the commands found in {/usr,}/sbin only make sense for a user with elevated privileges, i.e. root. Those that also make sense for normal users (e.g. tools which provide read-only access as well like ip/ifconfig, sysctl, etc.) could easily be hardlinked into the bin directories on the same level without much hassle on the RPM side of things. > Sudo should (optionally) be the default for the first user added, like > say through firstboot. A checkbox that would have to be cleared that > will drop the user in the wheel group which by default has sudo rights > (that way we don't have to munge the sudors file). Sudo is all fine and dandy if you think about the command line, but this is still a "legacy" way of doing things. Mind that as long as they're in good order I'm all for keeping "legacy" as "legacy" often also means "tried and true". I also don't see a reason why "legacy" and new ways can't coexist. > "root" is a legacy concept. Either the local user is also the admin, or > the admin is a site wide admin where local root accounts are just jokes > and instead things are done as sudo, or through config management > systems. "root" is only a legacy concept inasmuch as UIDs are seen as users, not as roles that someone assumes temporarily, e.g. by way of sudo or PolicyKit/dbus proxies. Keeping the privileged role separate from the normal role, even for the primary user of a system, is one line of defense against malware. > I also agree that ancient filesystem layouts are needless confusion. > They (almost) made since way back in the day, but fear of chance has > kept them coming forward into modern day operating systems where they're > just not needed, and only add confusion and frustration. "Where do I > install this binary into? What level man page do I give this?" etc... Man pages are a particularly bad example, as it's not only "What level man page do I give this?" but also "What level is this man page I want to read?" -- "man foo" almost always displays the wrong one if there are multiple. Other than that, the distinction and compartmentalization between / and /usr is quite sound -- the former contains the basic set of tools and libraries to bootstrap the system, regardless of where from the rest comes. If disaster strikes, a small root volume is much less likely to be than a giant single volume and it gives me the tools necessary to salvage what is salvageable. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From nphilipp at redhat.com Fri Mar 28 09:48:22 2008 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:48:22 +0100 Subject: Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program In-Reply-To: <64b14b300803260806g5ee53fbbva052342376d2766e@mail.gmail.com> References: <47E8071F.8010109@gmail.com> <1206459712.3606.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1206524943.2840.30.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> <1206531139.1458.24.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <1206540901.14594.16.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <64b14b300803260806g5ee53fbbva052342376d2766e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206697702.3572.29.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 16:06 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong but they said that GenericName should be "Image Editor" Whatever they set in the desktop file for that is fine with me. My posting was more about that an AbbreviatedName key would be a good thing to have for those types of users who do know which application they seek. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011