From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Sat Nov 1 16:39:52 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:39:52 +0200 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <20081027212720.GB1541@tango.0pointer.de> References: <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <1225137210.14473.95.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081027204538.GA5325@victor.nirvana> <20081027205556.GA32156@tango.0pointer.de> <20081027210813.GC5325@victor.nirvana> <20081027212720.GB1541@tango.0pointer.de> Message-ID: <20081101163952.GA15271@victor.nirvana> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:27:20PM +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote: > On Mon, 27.10.08 23:08, Axel Thimm (Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net) wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 09:55:56PM +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > > > But dynamical ports are not new to iptables, lots of protocols, be > > > > that rpc, h323 or even p-o-d passive ftp need them and conntrack/pom > > > > rectify the `static firewall' view. > > > > > > But all those protocols start the connection with a well known port > > > and then hand things off to a dynamic port. If you use truely random > > > ports than iptables needs to sense what kind of protocol something is > > > based on the packet contents. Which security-wise is a joke, and > > > hence the whole idea makes no sense. > > > > And there are services that use truely random ports? E.g. w/o any > > handshaking or negotiation about these ports by well-defined > > processes? Why do we have mDNS/DNS-SD/SSDP for? > > So you are suggesting that a firewall should automatically whitelist > all ports that are announced via mDNS on the network? Wow. That it is > certainly one hell of a good idea. Oh my. No, just like the people using active FTP mode never implicitely suggested this either. But if *you* are annoyed for your rhythmbox not automatically sharing its files you could use this mechanism. > Are you sure you really understand what "security" means? I do, but it's funny to be asked by the person that suggests whitelisting everything, e.g. removing the firewall completely. > "Security" certainly doesn't mean whitelisting everything that someone > likes to announce on the network via mDNS/DNS-SD. It's nice you realize this. But you suggested using listen(2) instead for this purpose in previous mails ... Anyway it's glad to see a change in mind. > > > > I haven't followed up the latest netfilter developments, but I know > > > > there is even a userspace lib for registering such connections. Maybe > > > > RB/mDNS and friends just need a pom `plugin'. > > > > > > The Linux kernel already has an API for that. It's called listen(). > > > > Cool, so any local non-priviledged process could open up holes in the > > firewall above ports 1024 as it pleases w/o the user even noticing. > > Yes. Absolutely. If he wants to use an app he will circumvent the fw > anyway. And hence the fw is pointless and it would be far smoother to > allow this kind of operation without nagging. So will the superuser do with selinux and any other security feature. Is the consequence to not even ship it or enable it? Not really. > > Why not remove password protection from accounts while we are at it? > > ;) > > Hmm, so you did have a clown for breakfast, didn't you? You seem to divert into colorful metaphores once your arguments are smoked up. If I were to answer in the same style, I'd notice that you are still writing emails, so, no, I did not eat you ;) -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Nov 4 21:40:35 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 21:40:35 +0000 Subject: Test fingerprint reader support! Message-ID: <1225834835.3271.445.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Heya, If you're feeling adventurous and you have a fingerprint reader, read on. The feature is detailed at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Fingerprint You'll need: - install the latest git snapshot of libfprint: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=917627 - rebuild and install the fprintd and fprintd-pam RPMs: http://hadess.fedorapeople.org/fprintd/fprintd-0.1-1.fc10.src.rpm (See also: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=469955 ) - Modify your /etc/pam.d/system-auth-ac file, and add the line: auth sufficient pam_fprintd.so before the line: auth sufficient pam_unix.so ... See also https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=469418 You can now enroll a new fingerprint using fprintd-enroll, list registered fingerprints using fprintd-list, and test verification using fprintd-verify. If you don't enroll a fingerprint, you just won't be asked for a fingerprint. Cheers PS: If you break your system and can't log in anymore, it's not my fault. Boot in single user mode, and remove the pam_fprint.so line from the pam.d configuration. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Nov 5 17:50:41 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:20:41 +0530 Subject: Trying out swfdec for Fedora 11 Message-ID: <4911DCF1.8010006@fedoraproject.org> Hi, In the last few weeks, I have been using swfdec in rawhide and it has been working quite well for my limited usage. Should we include swfdec by default in rawhide for Fedora 11 right after the Fedora 10 release? At the very least, directing more feedback towards improving it, by having it as default would be good regardless of whether it is mature enough for Fedora 11 release yet. It is one of the last pieces of proprietary software that almost everyone ends up using in Linux. Comments? Rahul From notting at redhat.com Wed Nov 5 18:53:38 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:53:38 -0500 Subject: Trying out swfdec for Fedora 11 In-Reply-To: <4911DCF1.8010006@fedoraproject.org> References: <4911DCF1.8010006@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081105185338.GA17161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > In the last few weeks, I have been using swfdec in rawhide and it has > been working quite well for my limited usage. Should we include swfdec > by default in rawhide for Fedora 11 right after the Fedora 10 release? Well, we tried it before and weren't very successful. It may be worth trying again, and just throwing every single flash site in existence at it to see what dies. Bill From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Nov 5 18:56:27 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 00:26:27 +0530 Subject: Trying out swfdec for Fedora 11 In-Reply-To: <20081105185338.GA17161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4911DCF1.8010006@fedoraproject.org> <20081105185338.GA17161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4911EC5B.1060609@fedoraproject.org> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: >> In the last few weeks, I have been using swfdec in rawhide and it has >> been working quite well for my limited usage. Should we include swfdec >> by default in rawhide for Fedora 11 right after the Fedora 10 release? > > Well, we tried it before and weren't very successful. It may be worth > trying again, and just throwing every single flash site in existence > at it to see what dies. Yes, I am aware we tried before but the situation seems substantial improved to me, now. Can you post the list of flash sites, we tried with before? If users have (esp popular ) sites, that aren't working yet, that list would be very useful as well. Rahul From walters at verbum.org Wed Nov 5 18:57:06 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:57:06 -0500 Subject: Trying out swfdec for Fedora 11 In-Reply-To: <4911DCF1.8010006@fedoraproject.org> References: <4911DCF1.8010006@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > In the last few weeks, I have been using swfdec in rawhide and it has been > working quite well for my limited usage. Should we include swfdec by default > in rawhide for Fedora 11 right after the Fedora 10 release? > > At the very least, directing more feedback towards improving it, by having > it as default would be good regardless of whether it is mature enough for > Fedora 11 release yet. It is one of the last pieces of proprietary software > that almost everyone ends up using in Linux. Comments? My main concern with this is how it affects the installation experience of the proprietary plugin. Right now Swfdec claims the same plugin name, if you have them both installed I think it basically just breaks. Needs investigation anyways. From davej at redhat.com Wed Nov 5 20:04:52 2008 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:04:52 -0500 Subject: Trying out swfdec for Fedora 11 In-Reply-To: <4911EC5B.1060609@fedoraproject.org> References: <4911DCF1.8010006@fedoraproject.org> <20081105185338.GA17161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4911EC5B.1060609@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081105200452.GA3240@redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 06, 2008 at 12:26:27AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > >> In the last few weeks, I have been using swfdec in rawhide and it has > >> been working quite well for my limited usage. Should we include swfdec > >> by default in rawhide for Fedora 11 right after the Fedora 10 release? > > > > Well, we tried it before and weren't very successful. It may be worth > > trying again, and just throwing every single flash site in existence > > at it to see what dies. > > Yes, I am aware we tried before but the situation seems substantial > improved to me, now. > > Can you post the list of flash sites, we tried with before? If users > have (esp popular ) sites, that aren't working yet, that list would be > very useful as well. I made a post a few days ago that mentioned that other than youtube, I haven't found many sites that work at all. Since then, I was actually pleasantly surprised that the CNN election map widget worked last night, so it's not complete loss. Sites that use flash as UI widgets seem to mostly work these days. Where it seems to still really fall over though are sites that stream media (be that video, audio or both). For some reason the code that was implemented for making youtube work isn't universal enough that other sites 'just work'. Maybe it just needs some small tweaks. Off the top of my head, sites I found that don't work - vimeo.com ovi.com myspace.com ustream.tv (spectacular fail!) justin.tv (more awesome fail!) cnn.com (any of the video news stories) news.bbc.co.uk (same) finance.google.com (click the graph) There's probably a bunch of others that I tried that failed, but I'd have to go power up my mac to dig out the bookmarks to find the rest. Dave -- http://www.codemonkey.org.uk From mike at miketc.net Wed Nov 5 20:10:13 2008 From: mike at miketc.net (Mike Chambers) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:10:13 -0600 Subject: Trying out swfdec for Fedora 11 In-Reply-To: <4911EC5B.1060609@fedoraproject.org> References: <4911DCF1.8010006@fedoraproject.org> <20081105185338.GA17161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4911EC5B.1060609@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1225915813.12848.5.camel@scrappy.miketc.net> On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 00:26 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > >> In the last few weeks, I have been using swfdec in rawhide and it has > >> been working quite well for my limited usage. Should we include swfdec > >> by default in rawhide for Fedora 11 right after the Fedora 10 release? > > > > Well, we tried it before and weren't very successful. It may be worth > > trying again, and just throwing every single flash site in existence > > at it to see what dies. > > Yes, I am aware we tried before but the situation seems substantial > improved to me, now. > > Can you post the list of flash sites, we tried with before? If users > have (esp popular ) sites, that aren't working yet, that list would be > very useful as well. Here are a few that I visit that are very popular, or you would think, that it doesn't work for.. http://espn.go.com/ http://www.cnn.com/ (at least their videos anyway) http://www.dallascowboys.com (maybe not as popular, don't know but at least are in sports land) Just to name a few... -- Mike Chambers Fedora Project - Ambassador, Bug Zapper, Tester, User, etc.. mikec302 at fedoraproject.org From notting at redhat.com Wed Nov 5 20:20:38 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:20:38 -0500 Subject: Trying out swfdec for Fedora 11 In-Reply-To: <4911EC5B.1060609@fedoraproject.org> References: <4911DCF1.8010006@fedoraproject.org> <20081105185338.GA17161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4911EC5B.1060609@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081105202038.GA31080@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > Yes, I am aware we tried before but the situation seems substantial > improved to me, now. > > Can you post the list of flash sites, we tried with before? If users > have (esp popular ) sites, that aren't working yet, that list would be > very useful as well. There was a test matrix for F9 on the wiki, and bugs filed in bugzilla. Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Nov 6 23:12:45 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:12:45 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 Message-ID: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hey all, with F10 closing in on the finish line, it is time to start thinking about how we envision the Fedora Desktop to look beyond F10. To that end, we (mostly Jon and me, with some help from other desktop team members) have started to put some of our ideas for how to improve the desktop experience into written form. You can find this material here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards Currently this is just a pretty unsorted mixture of wild ideas, implementation details and concrete plans, and a lot of them are missing details, user stories and use cases. Don't misunderstand it as 'the plan for the F11 desktop'. But I hope that it is filled out enough to provide some idea in what direction we would like to move the desktop. Over the next weeks, we'll turn the things that we are going to tackle for F11 into regular feature pages. Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion tabs. Matthias From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Nov 7 08:40:53 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:40:53 +0200 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4913FF15.7030101@nicubunu.ro> Matthias Clasen wrote: > Hey all, Hi, > with F10 closing in on the finish line, it is time to start thinking > about how we envision the Fedora Desktop to look beyond F10. To that > end, we (mostly Jon and me, with some help from other desktop team > members) have started to put some of our ideas for how to improve the > desktop experience into written form. > > You can find this material here: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards [...] > Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion > tabs. I think commenting here is a better way, since is hard to keep track of comments on so many wiki pages. "Better Face Images" is one of the features. Diana worked on that before she left (http://www.isity.net/blog/?p=65), maybe we can leverage somehow her work, do a better selection from the collected images or star to collect a new batch. Leave us know it the Art Team can help with that. There are also two related features, "Wallpaper" and "Backgrounds channel", for which I think the best way forward is to link them together, why struggle with an sub-optimal selection process (which, any way you make, will get some un-pleased) when we can offer everything with one click using RSS feeds. I don't like the part about randomly assigning an initial background, one think I learned from GNOME is that good defaults matter. For the "Better Fonts" feature, it may not be what you envisioned, but we at the Art Team are actively asking for "artsy" fonts, things like Rufscript or Beteckna. We don't want those in the default install, but is handy to have them easy available. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From dwinship at redhat.com Fri Nov 7 15:02:21 2008 From: dwinship at redhat.com (Dan Winship) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:02:21 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> Matthias Clasen wrote: > Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion > tabs. > Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1... I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much the same way. That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you. -- Dan From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Nov 7 15:02:48 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:02:48 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <4913FF15.7030101@nicubunu.ro> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4913FF15.7030101@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1226070168.3417.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 10:40 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > "Better Face Images" is one of the features. Diana worked on that before > she left (http://www.isity.net/blog/?p=65), maybe we can leverage > somehow her work, do a better selection from the collected images or > star to collect a new batch. Leave us know it the Art Team can help with > that. We used to ship those images in a gdm-extra-faces subpackage. I need to investigate what happened to that... > > There are also two related features, "Wallpaper" and "Backgrounds > channel", for which I think the best way forward is to link them > together, why struggle with an sub-optimal selection process (which, any > way you make, will get some un-pleased) when we can offer everything > with one click using RSS feeds. > I don't like the part about randomly assigning an initial background, > one think I learned from GNOME is that good defaults matter. The basic premise here is that we think it may be better to treat backgrounds as a 'personalization feature', not as a branding vehicle. Since, after all, changing the background is one of the first things many people do on a new device. To make randomly assigning work, it is of course important that we have a small set of equal-quality backgrounds to choose from (basically, each of them needs to be a good default...) > For the "Better Fonts" feature, it may not be what you envisioned, but > we at the Art Team are actively asking for "artsy" fonts, things like > Rufscript or Beteckna. We don't want those in the default install, but > is handy to have them easy available. Expanding the supply of available fonts is certainly great, artsy or not... From bill at pecknet.com Fri Nov 7 15:05:36 2008 From: bill at pecknet.com (Bill Peck) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 10:05:36 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Dan Winship wrote: > Matthias Clasen wrote: >> Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion >> tabs. > >> Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import > > My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. > Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 > player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to > copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs > WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1... > So what should the default be? I personally rip everything as flac. > I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much > the same way. > > That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you > don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you. > > -- Dan > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From maccy at maccomms.co.uk Fri Nov 7 15:37:50 2008 From: maccy at maccomms.co.uk (Maccy) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:37:50 +0000 Subject: GNOME Applications menu question In-Reply-To: <1226070168.3417.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4913FF15.7030101@nicubunu.ro> <1226070168.3417.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <491460CE.1040900@maccomms.co.uk> Does anyone know how I can add another group under 'Applications' on the top panel of the GNOME desktop? I can easily add an item to the Applications menu by creating a .desktop file in the /usr/share/applications directory. But I work in Astronomy and what I want to do is create a new 'Astronomy' group containing links to the most popular installed Astro software on one system, then distribute the relevant config files to all my other machines. Documentation seems scarce.... Thanks in advance for any advice, Mark From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Nov 7 16:01:18 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:01:18 -0500 Subject: GNOME Applications menu question In-Reply-To: <491460CE.1040900@maccomms.co.uk> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4913FF15.7030101@nicubunu.ro> <1226070168.3417.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <491460CE.1040900@maccomms.co.uk> Message-ID: <1226073678.19100.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 15:37 +0000, Maccy wrote: > Does anyone know how I can add another group under 'Applications' on the > top panel of the GNOME desktop? > > I can easily add an item to the Applications menu by creating a .desktop > file in the /usr/share/applications directory. But I work in Astronomy and what I want to do is > create a new 'Astronomy' group containing links to the most popular > installed Astro software on one system, then distribute the relevant > config files to all my other machines. > > Documentation seems scarce.... If you want to do it by file editing, you want to look at the .menu files in /etc/xdg/menus (they are a bit confusing at first). If you just want to edit your own menus, theres a gui for that somewhere in the preference menus, look for "Main Menu". It lets you add new menus. From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Nov 7 17:54:21 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 09:54:21 -0800 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 10:05 -0500, Bill Peck wrote: > >> Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import > > > > My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. > > Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 > > player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to > > copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs > > WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1... > > > > So what should the default be? I personally rip everything as flac. The default should be what we can legally ship with, which isn't mp3. .ogg is not a bad choice. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 18:25:21 2008 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 13:25:21 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <939dd5750811071025p31b93d15ga3019ca3143f2af8@mail.gmail.com> Hey, On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Dan Winship wrote: > Matthias Clasen wrote: >> Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion >> tabs. > >> Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import > > My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. > Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 > player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to > copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs > WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1... > > I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much > the same way. > > That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you > don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you. Because when Rhythmbox transfers files to your device it transcodes them from ogg or flac into whatever format your player supports. We don't want nautilus to be the sync-with-music-player experience. Jon From maillist at diffingo.com Fri Nov 7 20:15:53 2008 From: maillist at diffingo.com (Stewart Adam) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:15:53 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4914A1F9.4050101@diffingo.com> On 11/7/08 10:02 AM, Dan Winship wrote: > Matthias Clasen wrote: >> Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion >> tabs. > >> Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import > > My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. > Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 > player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to > copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs > WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1... > > I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much > the same way. > > That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you > don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you. > > -- Dan > Having ogg be default is fine IMHO, but it would be great to add more options to the rip preferences. For example, I still prefer ripping to wav and then using an audio converter to convert to FLAC since there's no way for me to set the flac compression level (or I missed it). In the case of lossy codecs, I think a simple drop-down selection for bitrate and checkbutton for CBR/VBR would make a lot of people happy. Stewart From dwinship at redhat.com Mon Nov 10 15:51:14 2008 From: dwinship at redhat.com (Dan Winship) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:51:14 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 10:05 -0500, Bill Peck wrote: >>>> Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import >>> My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. >>> Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 >>> player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to >>> copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs >>> WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1... >>> >> So what should the default be? I personally rip everything as flac. > > The default should be what we can legally ship with, which isn't > mp3. .ogg is not a bad choice. The overriding goal is to help the user do the stuff they want to do. If we can't do that for legal reasons, then "helping the user do stuff they DON'T want to do" is not a reasonable fallback. (I realize that .ogg-by-default *is* an ok choice for many people, so we're not completely losing here.) But am I wrong in believing that MP3 is the de facto standard compressed audio format? And that many people have devices that play MP3s but not oggs? And that when people say "rip", it's generally assumed they mean "rip to mp3" unless they explicitly name another file format? If so, then Rhythmbox (or actually, Sound Juicer, right?) has bad confusing UI, because it doesn't support MP3, but it never acknowledges this fact anywhere, leaving the user to assume that it does. (Even I get confused, and I *know* Fedora can't ship MP3 support.) If our use cases for the "Default CD ripper" feature assume that some people are going to want to rip to MP3 (which I assume they will), and our CD ripping tool is not going to support MP3 (which I assume it won't), then the UI ought to be a lot more explicit about this, and make sure that the user isn't going to waste their time ripping CDs into a format they can't use. -- Dan From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Nov 10 16:25:59 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:25:59 +0200 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> Message-ID: <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> Dan Winship wrote: > But am I wrong in believing that MP3 is the de facto standard compressed > audio format? And that many people have devices that play MP3s but not > oggs? And that when people say "rip", it's generally assumed they mean > "rip to mp3" unless they explicitly name another file format? Some years ago I used to use grip, which has two buttons, one for "rip" and another for "rip + encode". Yes, at the very first use I was confused a bit that "rip" produced a .wav file, but I understood the process. > If so, then Rhythmbox (or actually, Sound Juicer, right?) has bad > confusing UI, because it doesn't support MP3, but it never acknowledges > this fact anywhere, leaving the user to assume that it does. (Even I get > confused, and I *know* Fedora can't ship MP3 support.) But Sound Juicer does support MP3. Not out-of-the-box, but after the first step I do after any install. > If our use cases for the "Default CD ripper" feature assume that some > people are going to want to rip to MP3 (which I assume they will), and > our CD ripping tool is not going to support MP3 (which I assume it > won't), then the UI ought to be a lot more explicit about this, and make > sure that the user isn't going to waste their time ripping CDs into a > format they can't use. It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way to get this data. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From duffy at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 10 16:37:48 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrcKtbiBEdWZmeQ==?=) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:37:48 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> Nicu Buculei wrote: > It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people > rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way > to get this data. Don't the various music players each have some kind of xml config file somewhere? Do these files have any information on what formats the players support? That could be a way to at least have an idea of how many support ogg vs mp3 only if it does. (If it doesn't, could it be added? How are those files maintained?) Just an idea, anyhow. ~m From gnomeuser at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 16:38:33 2008 From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:38:33 +0100 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0811100838y7c7518cdt68260f331f634925@mail.gmail.com> 2008/11/10 Nicu Buculei > It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people rip > to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way to get > this data. I use Banshee, my setting is to rip to flac. Banshee then handles transcoding to my iPod in a format that can handle if supported by my system (luckily Danish law is slightly less insane and it's US counterpart in this area so I can have me some mp3 goodness). - David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcbw at redhat.com Mon Nov 10 21:24:37 2008 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:24:37 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 11:37 -0500, M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > Nicu Buculei wrote: > > It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people > > rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way > > to get this data. > > Don't the various music players each have some kind of xml config file > somewhere? Do these files have any information on what formats the > players support? That could be a way to at least have an idea of how Yes, 10-usb-music-players.fdi. And I'm pretty sure rhythmbox will already transcode to a format the player supports, but of course nautilus won't since it doesn't care what type the device is. Dan > many support ogg vs mp3 only if it does. (If it doesn't, could it be > added? How are those files maintained?) > > Just an idea, anyhow. > > ~m > From duffy at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 10 21:30:24 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrcKtbiBEdWZmeQ==?=) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:30:24 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4918A7F0.9080102@fedoraproject.org> Dan Williams wrote: > On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 11:37 -0500, M?ir??n Duffy wrote: >> Nicu Buculei wrote: >>> It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people >>> rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way >>> to get this data. >> Don't the various music players each have some kind of xml config file >> somewhere? Do these files have any information on what formats the >> players support? That could be a way to at least have an idea of how > > Yes, 10-usb-music-players.fdi. And I'm pretty sure rhythmbox will > already transcode to a format the player supports, but of course > nautilus won't since it doesn't care what type the device is. Hmm, Dan (Winship), did you use Nautilus or did you use Rhythmbox? I think the feature bullet point in question was specific to Rhythmbox, wasn't it? ~m From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Mon Nov 10 21:56:23 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:56:23 -0600 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> Dan Williams escribi?: > On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 11:37 -0500, M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > >> Nicu Buculei wrote: >> >>> It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people >>> rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way >>> to get this data. >>> >> Don't the various music players each have some kind of xml config file >> somewhere? Do these files have any information on what formats the >> players support? That could be a way to at least have an idea of how >> > > Yes, 10-usb-music-players.fdi. And I'm pretty sure rhythmbox will > already transcode to a format the player supports, but of course > nautilus won't since it doesn't care what type the device is. > > Dan > I've been watching this discussion over the last few days, and I can't help but think about one single issue: If Rythmbox rips to .ogg/.flac and then transcodes into the DAP's native format (.wma/.m4a/AAC/etc) to synchronize, doesn't that mean that at least the *encoders* to these other formats/containers must be installed on Fedora, and that would bring us to the first point of the argument of Fedora not being able (under US laws) to include these encoders in the first place? What does it matter if Rythmbox upstream is able to do this (regardless of the format you may keep your own library) if it *can't be implemented on Fedora* due to use of restricted encoders required. So, in a default installation, suppose Rythmbox is able to do this, but it requires the pertinent GStreamer plugins to be installed in the first place to be able to do the transcode. Or is Fedora enabling RPMFusion by default and installing these encoders in an "as needed" basis when a user first tries to sync his/her iPod/Nomad/iriver/Sony/etc DAP? From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 10 22:34:02 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:04:02 +0530 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <4918B6DA.7050503@fedoraproject.org> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: Or is Fedora enabling RPMFusion by default and > installing these encoders in an "as needed" basis when a user first > tries to sync his/her iPod/Nomad/iriver/Sony/etc DAP? Fedora cannot do that. Rahul From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Nov 11 00:33:21 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:33:21 +0100 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1226363601.3483.19.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 10:02 -0500, Dan Winship wrote: > Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion > > tabs. > > > Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import > > My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. > Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 > player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to > copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs > WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1... > > I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much > the same way. That's not the CD ripping experience, that's the ripping and sync'ing your music player experience. If you just wanted to play back your tracks, this setup would have been as good as WMP ripping to WMA, or iTunes ripping to AAC. > That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you > don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you. Pretty much. Except that Rhythmbox knows how to convert the files you just ripped for them to be readable by your device. File bugs if any of this isn't true. And we're looking at making Rhythmbox replace Sound-juicer, without significant feature loss. Integration with music players is something that will come later. From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Nov 11 04:38:40 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:38:40 -0600 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <4918B6DA.7050503@fedoraproject.org> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> <4918B6DA.7050503@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <49190C50.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Or is Fedora enabling RPMFusion by default and >> installing these encoders in an "as needed" basis when a user first >> tries to sync his/her iPod/Nomad/iriver/Sony/etc DAP? > > Fedora cannot do that. > > Rahul Excaclty! And that is my whole point! Why lose time discussing this that simply cannot be done in Fedora due to the number of legal blackholes it would imply. There are a few DAP brands that do allow for free formats to be played back on them (iriver, Creative Nomad, Cowon iAuduio, etc), they can mostly play .ogg/.flac (beside the array of proprietary formats .mp3,.wma,.m4a,.aac, etc), but the main problem with these is the small storage capacity compared to the traditional iPod, and while pretty much all of these do support video, the video format they mostly support is also encumbered (h264 simple profile and MPEG-4 simple profile) I wish Theora will mature to the point that it would be a viable alternative for these formats and most likely would be picked up by some companies as well (just like .ogg Vorbis & FLAC). I, however, wonder what will the status on this be when in 2010 the patents on MP3 (dunno which ones) supposedly expire. But that's still a whole 13+ months away (the whole life-cycle of Fedora 10!). Speaking about Video, maybe an area (in Multimedia) that would be worth investing development and time testing is just video-encoding and editing using free formats (theora). Many times in the past I tried to transcode some of the videos I own (whether it be DVD or downloaded free-videos) to theora. Once I wanted to conduct a quality comparison between theora, MPEG-4 and h264, but I could never find a good and reliable theora encoder. I do believe that ffmpeg (another restricted package) does support transcoding to theora, but is there a stand-alone theora encoder? From gnomeuser at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 06:36:42 2008 From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:36:42 +0100 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <49190C50.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> <4918B6DA.7050503@fedoraproject.org> <49190C50.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0811102236i7d9209bala31bd834b68bc8cb@mail.gmail.com> 2008/11/11 Gian Paolo Mureddu > Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > >> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: >> Or is Fedora enabling RPMFusion by default and >> >>> installing these encoders in an "as needed" basis when a user first tries >>> to sync his/her iPod/Nomad/iriver/Sony/etc DAP? >>> >> >> Fedora cannot do that. >> >> Rahul >> > > Excaclty! And that is my whole point! Why lose time discussing this that > simply cannot be done in Fedora due to the number of legal blackholes it > would imply. There are a few DAP brands that do allow for free formats to be > played back on them (iriver, Creative Nomad, Cowon iAuduio, etc), they can > mostly play .ogg/.flac (beside the array of proprietary formats > .mp3,.wma,.m4a,.aac, etc), but the main problem with these is the small > storage capacity compared to the traditional iPod, and while pretty much all > of these do support video, the video format they mostly support is also > encumbered (h264 simple profile and MPEG-4 simple profile) I wish Theora > will mature to the point that it would be a viable alternative for these > formats and most likely would be picked up by some companies as well (just > like .ogg Vorbis & FLAC). > > > I, however, wonder what will the status on this be when in 2010 the patents > on MP3 (dunno which ones) supposedly expire. But that's still a whole 13+ > months away (the whole life-cycle of Fedora 10!). > > Speaking about Video, maybe an area (in Multimedia) that would be worth > investing development and time testing is just video-encoding and editing > using free formats (theora). Many times in the past I tried to transcode > some of the videos I own (whether it be DVD or downloaded free-videos) to > theora. Once I wanted to conduct a quality comparison between theora, MPEG-4 > and h264, but I could never find a good and reliable theora encoder. I do > believe that ffmpeg (another restricted package) does support transcoding to > theora, but is there a stand-alone theora encoder? In terms of video, we could start installing gstreamer-schrodinger by default (as well as the totem bbc plugin), that is one more format we can legally ship so we really should, it is also a high quality video codec and much more likely to do well in your comparison. Does anyone know why we are not shipping this small package by default to encourage the use of open formats? When it comes to encoders for mp3s files we are some what screwed by the fact that there isn't even a vendor who sells one, Fluendo e.g. only has a decoder, as you can't get an aac encoder either to the best of my knowledge there simply is no legal way to use an iPod in countries with software patents with Fedora (unless you only download legal mp3s but I suspect most people will want to add their own cds to the collection). The only option would be using Rockbox and then relying on it's ogg theora support. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Nov 11 07:35:19 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:35:19 +0200 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <1226363601.3483.19.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226363601.3483.19.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> Message-ID: <491935B7.30600@nicubunu.ro> Bastien Nocera wrote: > > And we're looking at making Rhythmbox replace Sound-juicer, without > significant feature loss. Integration with music players is something > that will come later. I know this is a personal preference, but I pretty much like to rip a CD without importing it in the Rhythmbox database and most of the time I find myself using Totem as a music player instead of Rhythmbox. So even this is a minority use scenario, maybe it will not be completely ignored. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Nov 11 07:40:26 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:40:26 +0200 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <49190C50.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> <4918B6DA.7050503@fedoraproject.org> <49190C50.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <491936EA.1070806@nicubunu.ro> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > Excaclty! And that is my whole point! Why lose time discussing this that > simply cannot be done in Fedora due to the number of legal blackholes it > would imply. There are a few DAP brands that do allow for free formats > to be played back on them (iriver, Creative Nomad, Cowon iAuduio, etc), > they can mostly play .ogg/.flac (beside the array of proprietary formats > .mp3,.wma,.m4a,.aac, etc), but the main problem with these is the small > storage capacity compared to the traditional iPod, and while pretty much > all of these do support video, the video format they mostly support is > also encumbered (h264 simple profile and MPEG-4 simple profile) I wish > Theora will mature to the point that it would be a viable alternative > for these formats and most likely would be picked up by some companies > as well (just like .ogg Vorbis & FLAC). I think the time is not lost if we make the user experience as good as possible, even if this does not work out of the box, it will work as soon as the user install a few external FOSS plugins. Is pretty much guaranteed that if someone uses a Fedora system for multimedia purposes, he *will* add the Rpmfusion repository. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Nov 11 08:39:28 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:39:28 -0600 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <491936EA.1070806@nicubunu.ro> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> <4918B6DA.7050503@fedoraproject.org> <49190C50.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> <491936EA.1070806@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <491944C0.6090500@prodigy.net.mx> Nicu Buculei escribi?: > Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: >> >> Excaclty! And that is my whole point! Why lose time discussing this >> that simply cannot be done in Fedora due to the number of legal >> blackholes it would imply. There are a few DAP brands that do allow >> for free formats to be played back on them (iriver, Creative Nomad, >> Cowon iAuduio, etc), they can mostly play .ogg/.flac (beside the >> array of proprietary formats .mp3,.wma,.m4a,.aac, etc), but the main >> problem with these is the small storage capacity compared to the >> traditional iPod, and while pretty much all of these do support >> video, the video format they mostly support is also encumbered (h264 >> simple profile and MPEG-4 simple profile) I wish Theora will mature >> to the point that it would be a viable alternative for these formats >> and most likely would be picked up by some companies as well (just >> like .ogg Vorbis & FLAC). > > I think the time is not lost if we make the user experience as good as > possible, even if this does not work out of the box, it will work as > soon as the user install a few external FOSS plugins. > Is pretty much guaranteed that if someone uses a Fedora system for > multimedia purposes, he *will* add the Rpmfusion repository. > Indeed, Nicu, as have I and many, many other users. The thing is how to improve the experience out-of-the-box, and Multimedia having such a high profile (and priority for most users) is key... I know this has been brought up many times in the past, but why don't we include in Fedora some "demo" material done purely off free formats (an example of this for F10, if we are still in time, would be to include the video-demo of adhoc netowrk sharing with NM in F10, and some of the Truth Happens videos, Red Hat allowing). I know "other distros" do this already, and I'm sure that these demos sure enough bring to the attention of people the existence of these formats. Maybe, also some of the ambassadors would approach some of the more receptive companies to also include a theora video codec in some DAPs, like I said, many companies other than Apple do support free formats... The thing is "is there an integer-based theora simple profile decoder available?" I may have look at Xiph's site and probably the mailing lists archives. Speaking about this, would any of you consider worth having a Wiki page for DAPs on Fedora, and maybe linked to the home page (or featured somewhere to raise awareness of it) about which DAPs could be supported out-of-the-box and how? From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Nov 11 08:51:28 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:51:28 +0200 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <491944C0.6090500@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> <4918B6DA.7050503@fedoraproject.org> <49190C50.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> <491936EA.1070806@nicubunu.ro> <491944C0.6090500@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <49194790.6030300@nicubunu.ro> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > Indeed, Nicu, as have I and many, many other users. The thing is how to > improve the experience out-of-the-box, and Multimedia having such a high > profile (and priority for most users) is key... I know this has been > brought up many times in the past, but why don't we include in Fedora > some "demo" material done purely off free formats (an example of this > for F10, if we are still in time, would be to include the video-demo of > adhoc netowrk sharing with NM in F10, and some of the Truth Happens > videos, Red Hat allowing). I know "other distros" do this already, and > I'm sure that these demos sure enough bring to the attention of people > the existence of these formats. I proposes in the past myself the addition of such content with no success. I guess this is a problem with available space on the media, all the focus in on the Live CD and it was really tough this round to make it fit on one CD (and there are still application deserving to be on the CD but with not enough space to fit them). -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Nov 11 08:59:32 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:59:32 -0600 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <49194790.6030300@nicubunu.ro> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> <4918B6DA.7050503@fedoraproject.org> <49190C50.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> <491936EA.1070806@nicubunu.ro> <491944C0.6090500@prodigy.net.mx> <49194790.6030300@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <49194974.7010109@prodigy.net.mx> Nicu Buculei escribi?: > Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: >> >> Indeed, Nicu, as have I and many, many other users. The thing is how >> to improve the experience out-of-the-box, and Multimedia having such >> a high profile (and priority for most users) is key... I know this >> has been brought up many times in the past, but why don't we include >> in Fedora some "demo" material done purely off free formats (an >> example of this for F10, if we are still in time, would be to include >> the video-demo of adhoc netowrk sharing with NM in F10, and some of >> the Truth Happens videos, Red Hat allowing). I know "other distros" >> do this already, and I'm sure that these demos sure enough bring to >> the attention of people the existence of these formats. > > I proposes in the past myself the addition of such content with no > success. > I guess this is a problem with available space on the media, all the > focus in on the Live CD and it was really tough this round to make it > fit on one CD (and there are still application deserving to be on the > CD but with not enough space to fit them). > I see... For the liveCD is indeed kind of tough... However, there are ways: 1) The welcome screen on the browser (Firefox/Konqueror in GNOME/KDE spins) a local .(x)html file arranged in such a way that users see at a glance what Fedora has to offer, include in there links to some videos (maybe even add a few thumbnails of the videos, which shouldn't take too much disk space, a few hundred kb at most) to show case these technologies. 2) Instead of a welcome page, maybe a bookmark button in the browser... less exposed, but equally "included" to a certain "media" location within FP.O, etc... There are a lot of things that *could* be done... The issue is "doing them". From maccy at maccomms.co.uk Tue Nov 11 11:49:18 2008 From: maccy at maccomms.co.uk (Maccy) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:49:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: GNOME Applications menu question In-Reply-To: <1226073678.19100.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4913FF15.7030101@nicubunu.ro> <1226070168.3417.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <491460CE.1040900@maccomms.co.uk> <1226073678.19100.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Matthias Clasen wrote: > If you want to do it by file editing, you want to look at the .menu > files in /etc/xdg/menus (they are a bit confusing at first). Very confusing....is there a quick and easy editing guide somewhere? I tried copying an existing file and changing names etc. but no joy. I would love to do it system-wide. Mark From dwinship at redhat.com Tue Nov 11 12:37:33 2008 From: dwinship at redhat.com (Dan Winship) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:37:33 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <1226363601.3483.19.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226363601.3483.19.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> Message-ID: <49197C8D.1080307@redhat.com> Bastien Nocera wrote: > Pretty much. Except that Rhythmbox knows how to convert the files you > just ripped for them to be readable by your device. Isn't ogg->mp3 going to be unpleasantly lossy? Shrug. Maybe everything would have worked fine for me and I just messed up by knowing too much about some things (ForbiddenItems) and not enough about others (Rhythmbox's current feature list). > Integration with music players is something > that will come later. Huh? I thought you said it already did that? -- Dan From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Nov 11 13:02:14 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:02:14 +0200 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <49197C8D.1080307@redhat.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226363601.3483.19.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> <49197C8D.1080307@redhat.com> Message-ID: <49198256.60903@nicubunu.ro> Dan Winship wrote: > Bastien Nocera wrote: >> Pretty much. Except that Rhythmbox knows how to convert the files you >> just ripped for them to be readable by your device. > > Isn't ogg->mp3 going to be unpleasantly lossy? If you target is a portable device it will probably be OK. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Nov 11 14:25:17 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:55:17 +0530 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <49194974.7010109@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> <4918B6DA.7050503@fedoraproject.org> <49190C50.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> <491936EA.1070806@nicubunu.ro> <491944C0.6090500@prodigy.net.mx> <49194790.6030300@nicubunu.ro> <49194974.7010109@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <491995CD.80406@fedoraproject.org> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > There are a lot of things that *could* be done... The issue is "doing > them". Correct. You can help however. Rahul From duffy at fedoraproject.org Tue Nov 11 14:39:10 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrcKtbiBEdWZmeQ==?=) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:39:10 -0500 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <49194974.7010109@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> <4918B6DA.7050503@fedoraproject.org> <49190C50.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> <491936EA.1070806@nicubunu.ro> <491944C0.6090500@prodigy.net.mx> <49194790.6030300@nicubunu.ro> <49194974.7010109@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <4919990E.9020200@fedoraproject.org> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > 1) The welcome screen on the browser (Firefox/Konqueror in GNOME/KDE > spins) a local .(x)html file arranged in such a way that users see at a > glance what Fedora has to offer, include in there links to some videos > (maybe even add a few thumbnails of the videos, which shouldn't take too > much disk space, a few hundred kb at most) to show case these technologies. So maybe we could spiff up the start.fedoraproject.org page to have some thumbnails & links out to media? > > 2) Instead of a welcome page, maybe a bookmark button in the browser... > less exposed, but equally "included" to a certain "media" location > within FP.O, etc... We do ship Firefox with links to free & open media by default. So you are referring to media that is specifically Fedora media, like videos about Fedora? ~m From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Nov 11 15:32:11 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:32:11 +0100 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <491935B7.30600@nicubunu.ro> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226363601.3483.19.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> <491935B7.30600@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1226417531.3483.22.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 09:35 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > And we're looking at making Rhythmbox replace Sound-juicer, without > > significant feature loss. Integration with music players is something > > that will come later. > > I know this is a personal preference, but I pretty much like to rip a CD > without importing it in the Rhythmbox database and most of the time I > find myself using Totem as a music player instead of Rhythmbox. So even > this is a minority use scenario, maybe it will not be completely ignored. I'll personally completely ignore it, to be honest. You're certainly free to go on and use sound-juicer and other tools to perform those tasks. Those aren't going away. Cheers From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Nov 11 15:36:43 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:36:43 +0100 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <49197C8D.1080307@redhat.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226363601.3483.19.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> <49197C8D.1080307@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1226417803.3483.27.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 07:37 -0500, Dan Winship wrote: > Bastien Nocera wrote: > > Pretty much. Except that Rhythmbox knows how to convert the files you > > just ripped for them to be readable by your device. > > Isn't ogg->mp3 going to be unpleasantly lossy? > > Shrug. Maybe everything would have worked fine for me and I just messed > up by knowing too much about some things (ForbiddenItems) and not enough > about others (Rhythmbox's current feature list). Possibly. But we want to make this easier. > > Integration with music players is something > > that will come later. > > Huh? I thought you said it already did that? I meant "MP3 players". And yes, we already have support for those devices, but it's not integrated into the ripping process. Integration might mean having the user to plug in their portable music player to check what it is, and what it supports, and try to make sure we're ripping to a format it understands. Cheers From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Nov 11 16:24:35 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:24:35 -0600 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <4919990E.9020200@fedoraproject.org> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226080461.5146.42.camel@luminos.localdomain> <49185872.9070905@redhat.com> <49186097.40208@nicubunu.ro> <4918635C.8000607@fedoraproject.org> <1226352277.8146.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4918AE07.1080500@prodigy.net.mx> <4918B6DA.7050503@fedoraproject.org> <49190C50.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> <491936EA.1070806@nicubunu.ro> <491944C0.6090500@prodigy.net.mx> <49194790.6030300@nicubunu.ro> <49194974.7010109@prodigy.net.mx> <4919990E.9020200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4919B1C3.1030300@prodigy.net.mx> M?ir??n Duffy escribi?: >> >> 2) Instead of a welcome page, maybe a bookmark button in the >> browser... less exposed, but equally "included" to a certain "media" >> location within FP.O, etc... > > We do ship Firefox with links to free & open media by default. So you > are referring to media that is specifically Fedora media, like videos > about Fedora? > > ~m > Indeed, that I meant. Should have been clearer on that. From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Nov 11 16:34:31 2008 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:34:31 -0600 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <49197C8D.1080307@redhat.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226363601.3483.19.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> <49197C8D.1080307@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4919B417.4080601@prodigy.net.mx> Dan Winship escribi?: > > Isn't ogg->mp3 going to be unpleasantly lossy? > > Yes and no... Yes, because the files would be stripped once again of some frequencies, and no because they have already been stripped of much of the "redundant" frequencies. Lossy compression such as Vorbis or MP3 lose data by stripping the stream of frequencies mostly inaudible by humans (some humans can hear them, most don't), Vorbis has a better algorithm and strips less frequencies from the stream, while MP3 has fixed set of frequencies (IIRC) that it strips (this all depends on the bit rate, though), so while Vorbis files have already been stripped, they may still include some frequencies recognized by MP3... Problem is that by transcoding from a lossy to a lossy format, more data is lost in the process and depending on the bit rate settings you may end up with file sounding something similar to what you get when you try to over-clean or de-noise a recording from an Vinyl disc (kind of a metallic tone). So for instance if you transcode from .oga/.ogg Vorbis at 192 kbps to MP3 at the same or similar bit rate (192 or 160), you may not notice much loss in quality, but if you transcode from Vorbis 128kbps to MP3 96kbps, you will notice much more loss than from integer .wav to MP3 96kbps, and it also depends quite a lot on the listener's ears. From lmacken at redhat.com Thu Nov 13 05:54:15 2008 From: lmacken at redhat.com (Luke Macken) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:54:15 -0500 Subject: Shipping QGTKStyle with F10 ? Message-ID: <20081113055415.GC4567@x300> I think it would be a good idea to ship the qgtkstyle package with our default GNOME desktop spin for F10. Doing so will give Qt apps a much more native look-and-feel out of the box. http://labs.trolltech.com/page/Projects/Styles/GtkStyle What do you all think? luke From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Nov 13 15:38:53 2008 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:38:53 -0600 Subject: Shipping QGTKStyle with F10 ? References: <20081113055415.GC4567@x300> Message-ID: Luke Macken wrote: > I think it would be a good idea to ship the qgtkstyle package with our > default GNOME desktop spin for F10. Doing so will give Qt apps a much > more native look-and-feel out of the box. I agree with the sentiment, but does the desktop spin include qt? Maybe instead consider adding something like this to gnome-desktop in comps: qgtkstyle -- Rex From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Nov 13 15:30:18 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:30:18 -0500 Subject: Shipping QGTKStyle with F10 ? In-Reply-To: <20081113055415.GC4567@x300> References: <20081113055415.GC4567@x300> Message-ID: <1226590218.3651.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-11-13 at 00:54 -0500, Luke Macken wrote: > I think it would be a good idea to ship the qgtkstyle package with our > default GNOME desktop spin for F10. Doing so will give Qt apps a much > more native look-and-feel out of the box. > > http://labs.trolltech.com/page/Projects/Styles/GtkStyle > > What do you all think? The sentiment among the GTK+ team about cross-toolkit engine approaches to theme integration has been nicely summed up by Owen, some time ago (http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2007-March/msg00167.html) Really, all this Qt-theme-for-GTK+ GTK+-theme-for-Qt stuff is just a horrendously bad idea. A vale of tears. What needs to be done is to write a toolkit-independent theme engine system, hopefully less baroque, strange, and broken then what we ended up for GTK+, and write themes for that. Maybe the latest qt-gtkstyle stuff is better, I don't know, I haven't looked at the code. Matthias From walters at verbum.org Thu Nov 13 15:43:39 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:43:39 -0500 Subject: Shipping QGTKStyle with F10 ? In-Reply-To: <1226590218.3651.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081113055415.GC4567@x300> <1226590218.3651.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Really, all this Qt-theme-for-GTK+ GTK+-theme-for-Qt stuff is just a > horrendously bad idea. A vale of tears. What needs to be done is to > write a toolkit-independent theme engine system, hopefully less baroque, > strange, and broken then what we ended up for GTK+, and write themes > for that. I guess what might make this in particular different is that it's coming from Trolltech and that implies some willingness to support it (the Labs moniker notwithstanding). However the real question isn't whether the Fedora GNOME desktop should ship qgtkstyle, it's whether the KDE spin is willing to support it. They're the ones who will be getting the bug reports against Amarok or whatever when run under Fedora GNOME desktop. From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Nov 13 17:10:24 2008 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:10:24 -0600 Subject: Shipping QGTKStyle with F10 ? References: <20081113055415.GC4567@x300> <1226590218.3651.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Colin Walters wrote: > I guess what might make this in particular different is that it's > coming from Trolltech and that implies some willingness to support it ... > However the real question isn't whether the Fedora GNOME desktop > should ship qgtkstyle, it's whether the KDE sig is willing to support > it. It's my understanding that qgtkstyle will be included in qt-4.5, so it should be a reasonably supportable option. Once that question is out of the way, how to get this installed, especially since this pkg makes the most sense on non-kde desktops. Brainstorming on irc a bit, the options we came up with so far: 1. use conditional comps magic, qgtkstyle somewhere. 2. add to qt-x11, Requires: qgtkstyle . 3. ??? ... 99. profit! -- Rex From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 20:09:44 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:09:44 -0900 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <1226417803.3483.27.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226363601.3483.19.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> <49197C8D.1080307@redhat.com> <1226417803.3483.27.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910811131209u69428d1lacaf6e0f6c4343c0@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:36 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > Integration might mean having the user to plug in their portable music > player to check what it is, and what it supports, and try to make sure > we're ripping to a format it understands. So with this sort of integration....on each device connect to the system. Can the packagekit goodness be called to reach out and pull supported gstreamer plugin codecs from the available configured repositories? -jef"and of course a nag screen to encourage you to replace your device's firmware with rockbox"spaleta From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net Thu Nov 13 17:28:10 2008 From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:28:10 -0600 Subject: Shipping QGTKStyle with F10 ? In-Reply-To: <1226590218.3651.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081113055415.GC4567@x300> <1226590218.3651.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Matthias Clasen wrote: > Really, all this Qt-theme-for-GTK+ GTK+-theme-for-Qt stuff is just a > horrendously bad idea. A vale of tears. What needs to be done is to > write a toolkit-independent theme engine system, hopefully less baroque, > strange, and broken then what we ended up for GTK+, and write themes > for that. ...something like metatheme? (http://www.metatheme.org/) Too bad the project seems to be long dead. -- Matthew Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. -- "Yoda of Borg am I. Futile is resistance. Assimilate you, I will." -- from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Yet_more_Best_of_BJAODN From bnocera at redhat.com Thu Nov 13 22:52:46 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 23:52:46 +0100 Subject: The desktop beyond F10 In-Reply-To: <604aa7910811131209u69428d1lacaf6e0f6c4343c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226013165.3468.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4914587D.3080206@redhat.com> <1226363601.3483.19.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> <49197C8D.1080307@redhat.com> <1226417803.3483.27.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> <604aa7910811131209u69428d1lacaf6e0f6c4343c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1226616766.3811.0.camel@snoogens.fab.redhat.com> On Thu, 2008-11-13 at 11:09 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:36 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > Integration might mean having the user to plug in their portable music > > player to check what it is, and what it supports, and try to make sure > > we're ripping to a format it understands. > > So with this sort of integration....on each device connect to the > system. Can the packagekit goodness be called to reach out and pull > supported gstreamer plugin codecs from the available configured > repositories? Eventually yes. From bnocera at redhat.com Thu Nov 20 11:15:21 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:15:21 +0000 Subject: gnome-dvb-daemon packaging? Message-ID: <1227179721.16046.1485.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Heya, I've already got quite a few packages on my plate (upstream and downstream), and I'm looking for somebody willing to package (and use!) gnome-dvb-daemon: http://www.k-d-w.org/node/58 http://live.gnome.org/DVBDaemon I'd be happy packaging gnome-dvb-daemon itself if it comes down to that, but I'd appreciate any help getting the dependencies into Fedora proper. Cheers From jeff at ocjtech.us Thu Nov 20 20:19:03 2008 From: jeff at ocjtech.us (Jeffrey Ollie) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:19:03 -0600 Subject: gnome-dvb-daemon packaging? In-Reply-To: <1227179721.16046.1485.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1227179721.16046.1485.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <935ead450811201219g3ac54feaua5745154200a6c44@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 5:15 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > I've already got quite a few packages on my plate (upstream and > downstream), and I'm looking for somebody willing to package (and use!) > gnome-dvb-daemon: > http://www.k-d-w.org/node/58 > http://live.gnome.org/DVBDaemon > > I'd be happy packaging gnome-dvb-daemon itself if it comes down to that, > but I'd appreciate any help getting the dependencies into Fedora proper. gnome-dvb-daemon appears to require gst-plugins-bad, which is verboten in Fedora. The rest of the dependencies appear to already be in Fedora, except that libgee isn't quite new enough. -- Jeff Ollie "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." -- Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5: "A Late Delivery from Avalon" From bnocera at redhat.com Fri Nov 21 22:20:32 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:20:32 +0000 Subject: gnome-dvb-daemon packaging? In-Reply-To: <935ead450811201219g3ac54feaua5745154200a6c44@mail.gmail.com> References: <1227179721.16046.1485.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <935ead450811201219g3ac54feaua5745154200a6c44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1227306032.16046.3615.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 14:19 -0600, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 5:15 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > I've already got quite a few packages on my plate (upstream and > > downstream), and I'm looking for somebody willing to package (and use!) > > gnome-dvb-daemon: > > http://www.k-d-w.org/node/58 > > http://live.gnome.org/DVBDaemon > > > > I'd be happy packaging gnome-dvb-daemon itself if it comes down to that, > > but I'd appreciate any help getting the dependencies into Fedora proper. > > gnome-dvb-daemon appears to require gst-plugins-bad, which is verboten > in Fedora. The rest of the dependencies appear to already be in > Fedora, except that libgee isn't quite new enough. We could get it in Fedora if there's some minimal functionality without requiring gst-plugins-bad. I haven't investigated yet. From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 23:05:41 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 14:05:41 -0900 Subject: Are mount types supported by fuse exposed in the Gnome UI? Message-ID: <604aa7910811221505j37bee1bu9d8a04df2fd95e77@mail.gmail.com> Does gnome's UI expose fuse mounts? If not is there an upstream roadmap for it that I'm not aware of? If for example I wanted to use a fuse's encfs is there a way to configure a mount of those via the Gnome UI? -jef From Harald.Berghoff at gmx.net Sun Nov 23 13:09:27 2008 From: Harald.Berghoff at gmx.net (Harald Berghoff) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:09:27 +0100 Subject: Multi Seat with F9 or F10? Message-ID: <49295607.9050903@gmx.net> Hello, i'm hoping i choosed the right audience for my question, please bear with me if not. I want to set up a multi-seat configuration with F9 (or F10 if that will be easier). I had this running on FC7 and was using the [servers] section in /etc/gdm/custom.conf to start two X server from GDM. F9 seems to ignore the /etc/gdm/custom.conf, the arguments X was started with doesn't fit any server entry in the config. Any hint is appreciated. Maybe the ConsoleKit is the right place? But i have not found any config file for the ConsoleKit in /etc? Thanks in Advance Harald -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3670 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: