From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 1 21:03:13 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:03:13 -0400 Subject: Polishing the F10 desktop Message-ID: <1222894993.3562.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Around beta time, the destkop team usually starts tracking minor polish issues, like nonworking menuitems, missing or wrong icons, etc. Traditionally, the tracker bug for this effort has been called 'yellowpad' (an actual yellow pad was involved in very early iterations of this process). This time around, I've given it the more neutral alias 'F10DesktopTarget'. For more serious bugs (like 'no sound' or 'my panel crashes') we have the 'F10DesktopBlocker' tracker bug. How you can help: - Install an F10 beta desktop or boot the F10 beta live cd - Look around on the desktop for polish issues - File bugs for the issues you find, and put them on the appropriate blocker Lets squash those bugs ! Matthias From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Oct 1 22:14:18 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:14:18 -0700 Subject: Polishing the F10 desktop In-Reply-To: <1222894993.3562.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1222894993.3562.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1222899258.6265.26.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 17:03 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Lets squash those bugs ! Thanks a ton for doing this! The upcoming weekly snapshots should prove very useful for checking progression for fixed polish issues. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Oct 3 03:56:26 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:56:26 -0400 Subject: Polishing the F10 desktop In-Reply-To: References: <1222894993.3562.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223006186.3554.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 18:15 -0400, Michel Salim wrote: > I won't have time for the next few hours, so if someone wants to check > for the following bugs: > - Brasero (the burning dialog) > - F-Spot (import dialog) > > Both of them are missing icons. I think I've fixed the f-spot import dialog. I didn't spot the missing icon in brasero, so maybe you should file a bug with a screenshot for that. Matthias From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Oct 4 16:14:06 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 21:44:06 +0530 Subject: Sudo for first user Message-ID: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> Hi You can add the following snippet to the fedora-desktop ks file into a init script to make sudo just work for the first user. It can't be added to %post since firstboot wouldn't have launched then. Let me know what you think: ----------------- # check for the first user and add it to user wheel and then to sudoers USER=$( grep 500 /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 ) GROUPS=$( groups $USER ) if ! groups $USER | grep -q wheel ; then usermod -a -G wheel $USER sed -i 's/# %wheel ALL=(ALL) ALL/ %wheel ALL=(ALL) ALL/' /etc/sudoers fi EOF ------------ Rahul From jonstanley at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 16:28:55 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:28:55 -0400 Subject: Sudo for first user In-Reply-To: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> References: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > You can add the following snippet to the fedora-desktop ks file into a init > script to make sudo just work for the first user. It can't be added to %post > since firstboot wouldn't have launched then. Let me know what you think: I'm not sure what the point of this is honestly - you already know who the user is on the LiveCD, so you can just give them sudo in %post. For the install case (which I think is what you're getting at here), I personally would rather fix this the Right Way(TM) for both LiveCD and installations from DVD, which is to give %wheel sudo in the sudo package, and offers an option in firstboot 'Make this user an administrator?' The reasoning against that is that it brings up issues when using a centralized authentication service - I think that we could probably make authconfig smart enough to yank that out if that's the case. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Oct 4 16:44:02 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 22:14:02 +0530 Subject: Sudo for first user In-Reply-To: References: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48E79D52.5010302@fedoraproject.org> Jon Stanley wrote: > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: >> Hi >> >> You can add the following snippet to the fedora-desktop ks file into a init >> script to make sudo just work for the first user. It can't be added to %post >> since firstboot wouldn't have launched then. Let me know what you think: > > I'm not sure what the point of this is honestly - you already know who > the user is on the LiveCD, so you can just give them sudo in %post. Sure but I am not talking about this at all. Only for the install case. > For the install case (which I think is what you're getting at here), I > personally would rather fix this the Right Way(TM) for both LiveCD and > installations from DVD, which is to give %wheel sudo in the sudo > package, and offers an option in firstboot 'Make this user an > administrator?' Adding more things to firstboot can hardly be considered ideal or the right way. Even so, for the desktop use case, I think what I am posting makes sense and can be done right away. The "ideal" solutions and other use cases have been used as a impediment for way too long. As a reminder, http://blogs.gnome.org/halfline/2007/08/18/experimental-livecd/ Rahul From walters at verbum.org Sat Oct 4 18:09:21 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:09:21 -0400 Subject: Sudo for first user In-Reply-To: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> References: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > You can add the following snippet to the fedora-desktop ks file into a init > script to make sudo just work for the first user. It can't be added to %post > since firstboot wouldn't have launched then. Let me know what you think: I agree the overall concept makes sense. Some questions to consider: 1) Are we too far into the F10 process for this? 2) How does this interact with the default PolicyKit configuration? 3) How do other important OS vendors use sudo, is there a chance to harmonize a bit? 4) Does it still make sense to have a root password (and root account)? I don't know the answers to these offhand - my initial thought on #2 is that it would make sense to have PolicyKit use the user's password for authentication if they're wheel (and ideally not prompt for passwords at all for OS updates, maybe a few others). On #4 I don't think it makes sense to have root by default if we do this, but that requires anaconda changes. From lars at homer.se Sat Oct 4 19:27:36 2008 From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 21:27:36 +0200 Subject: Sudo for first user In-Reply-To: References: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48E7C3A8.8060104@homer.se> On 10/04/2008 08:09 PM, Colin Walters wrote: > 4) Does it still make sense to have a root password (and root account)? Of course! Isn't the strong point of Unix/Linux/etc. the security model where one makes a *distinction* between ordinary user and the "super-user" root? I.e. why make a user the "super-user", or make one user be able to use all root's commands simply by using sudo? This means that if the users password gets known, that persons account will get you the same privileges as root. Why not instead try to educate people to use a really strong password for root, only use root when necessary, and perhaps teach them to add certain not-that-dangerous-commands to sudo? For me it looks as if you want to go away from the security model used for years, I ask myself, why? /Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson http://www.sm6rpz.se/ From kanarip at kanarip.com Sun Oct 5 00:18:58 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 02:18:58 +0200 Subject: Sudo for first user In-Reply-To: References: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48E807F2.5080805@kanarip.com> Jon Stanley wrote: > The reasoning against that is that it brings up issues when using a > centralized authentication service - I think that we could probably > make authconfig smart enough to yank that out if that's the case. > I don't understand this reasoning. What does membership of the wheel group for the first user being configured on the local system have to do with remote or centralized authentication? Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Oct 5 02:38:07 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 08:08:07 +0530 Subject: Sudo for first user In-Reply-To: References: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48E8288F.9050308@fedoraproject.org> Colin Walters wrote: > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: >> Hi >> >> You can add the following snippet to the fedora-desktop ks file into a init >> script to make sudo just work for the first user. It can't be added to %post >> since firstboot wouldn't have launched then. Let me know what you think: > > I agree the overall concept makes sense. Some questions to consider: > > 1) Are we too far into the F10 process for this? It's a fairly simple change. You can stick it in the current ks file and do a compose and test or if you want me to do that and post a image for further testing, I can. > 2) How does this interact with the default PolicyKit configuration? PolicyKit configuration should be tweaked to accept user password like you said but I don't know about the details much. > 3) How do other important OS vendors use sudo, is there a chance to > harmonize a bit? > 4) Does it still make sense to have a root password (and root account)? Are you asking about disabling the root account by default? Not possible without Anaconda changes and at this point, I wouldn't think about anything major for this release atleast. Rahul From muepsj at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 09:06:03 2008 From: muepsj at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Joonas_Saraj=C3=A4rvi?=) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 12:06:03 +0300 Subject: Sudo for first user In-Reply-To: <48E8288F.9050308@fedoraproject.org> References: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> <48E8288F.9050308@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <66ec675b0810050206m2a53fc27tc0330e320f48c3ab@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/5 Rahul Sundaram : > Colin Walters wrote: >> >> On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> You can add the following snippet to the fedora-desktop ks file into a >>> init >>> script to make sudo just work for the first user. It can't be added to >>> %post >>> since firstboot wouldn't have launched then. Let me know what you think: >> >> I agree the overall concept makes sense. Some questions to consider: >> >> 1) Are we too far into the F10 process for this? > > It's a fairly simple change. You can stick it in the current ks file and do > a compose and test or if you want me to do that and post a image for further > testing, I can. > >> 2) How does this interact with the default PolicyKit configuration? > > PolicyKit configuration should be tweaked to accept user password like you > said but I don't know about the details much. > > >> 3) How do other important OS vendors use sudo, is there a chance to >> harmonize a bit? >> 4) Does it still make sense to have a root password (and root account)? > > Are you asking about disabling the root account by default? Not possible > without Anaconda changes and at this point, I wouldn't think about anything > major for this release atleast. I used to always lock the root account and use sudo myself, but AFAIK the system-config-* tools for example can't be set up to use sudo instead of the root passoword. (Debian, Ubuntu and Arch Linux, for example, use gksu for similar tools, which can be configured to use either.) Since I didn't want multiple ways to get root privileges and I still wanted to use the system-config-* tools from the menu, I had to stop using sudo. I quickly got used to using the root password, though. I don't mind if Fedora uses sudo or a root account for getting root privileges, but I'd very much like it to be consistent. Ubuntu does this by having every management tool support sudo and always asking for the user's password. Fedora has always asked for the root password, which I like, too. I'm not a security expert, but I think it would be best to have just one way to get root access. One important password. Or with sudo, where I could just decide which users could run admin tools, instead of just the users who know the root password. What I wouldn't like is a mess where I would sometimes enter my own password and other times the root password, depending on the tool. If this could be avoided just by not opting in for the sudo setup during the installation, that is ok. This ended up being a little rant-ish, but well, I think adding sudo to the default setup is not a small change and is worth being thought and planned well ahead before doing it. -- Joonas Saraj?rvi muepsj at gmail.com From maddy123450 at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 12:25:20 2008 From: maddy123450 at gmail.com (ram ses) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:55:20 +0530 Subject: dhcp Message-ID: fedora cd's does not have an rpm package that is dhcp sever package that rpm is important in a server package -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Oct 5 12:33:04 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 18:03:04 +0530 Subject: dhcp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E8B400.8060106@fedoraproject.org> ram ses wrote: > fedora cd's does not have an rpm package that is dhcp sever package that > rpm is important in a server package Yes but the live cd's are not meant for server usage. You might want to try the regular DVD or CD set instead. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Oct 5 19:03:34 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:33:34 +0530 Subject: include NetworkManager-pptp Message-ID: <48E90F86.30702@fedoraproject.org> Hi, This package went missing during the transition to 0.7 (we had a few complaints about that) and is back again in rawhide recently. Might want to include that in the desktop ks file. Rahul From walters at verbum.org Mon Oct 6 17:30:22 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 13:30:22 -0400 Subject: include NetworkManager-pptp In-Reply-To: <48E90F86.30702@fedoraproject.org> References: <48E90F86.30702@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 3:03 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > This package went missing during the transition to 0.7 (we had a few > complaints about that) and is back again in rawhide recently. Might want to > include that in the desktop ks file. Probably best to change this one in comps. From pemboa at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 17:44:58 2008 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:44:58 -0500 Subject: include NetworkManager-pptp In-Reply-To: <48E90F86.30702@fedoraproject.org> References: <48E90F86.30702@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <16de708d0810061044v17e3ec7fs7ec362f8799427c2@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > This package went missing during the transition to 0.7 (we had a few > complaints about that) and is back again in rawhide recently. Might want to > include that in the desktop ks file. > > Rahul I filed this bug some time ago: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=461420 will try rawhide again. -- Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin ( www.pembo13.com ) From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 7 06:02:48 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 11:32:48 +0530 Subject: Fedora 10 Release Notes - Desktop Message-ID: <48EAFB88.10806@fedoraproject.org> Hi, I have started filling in as many details as I could in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Desktop Make sure all the important changes on the desktop for this release is well documented. Thanks. Rahul From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 7 13:46:36 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 09:46:36 -0400 Subject: Fedora 10 Release Notes - Desktop In-Reply-To: <48EAFB88.10806@fedoraproject.org> References: <48EAFB88.10806@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1223387196.3420.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 11:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > I have started filling in as many details as I could in > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Desktop > > Make sure all the important changes on the desktop for this release is > well documented. Thanks. Thanks for doing that, Rahul. I'm not sure plymouth is _really_ a desktop feature, though. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 7 13:52:17 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:22:17 +0530 Subject: Fedora 10 Release Notes - Desktop In-Reply-To: <1223387196.3420.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <48EAFB88.10806@fedoraproject.org> <1223387196.3420.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <48EB6991.9070301@fedoraproject.org> Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 11:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I have started filling in as many details as I could in >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Desktop >> >> Make sure all the important changes on the desktop for this release is >> well documented. Thanks. > > Thanks for doing that, Rahul. I'm not sure plymouth is _really_ a > desktop feature, though. I have been treating the "desktop beat" as I kind of all things graphical beat for the past several releases and that has generally worked out well. If the content is complete and accurate (which is what I am aiming for), it can be moved around pretty easy. If you want to put in a different bucket, feel free to do that. I am not sure whether NM belongs so the system daemons beat or desktop beat either. Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Oct 7 14:21:02 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:21:02 +0300 Subject: Fedora 10 Release Notes - Desktop In-Reply-To: <48EB6991.9070301@fedoraproject.org> References: <48EAFB88.10806@fedoraproject.org> <1223387196.3420.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48EB6991.9070301@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48EB704E.7070809@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Matthias Clasen wrote: >> On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 11:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have started filling in as many details as I could in >>> >>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Desktop >>> >>> Make sure all the important changes on the desktop for this release >>> is well documented. Thanks. >> >> Thanks for doing that, Rahul. I'm not sure plymouth is _really_ a >> desktop feature, though. It may not be, but generally is *perceived* as such so it definitely helps to be mentioned in the Desktop context. > I have been treating the "desktop beat" as I kind of all things > graphical beat for the past several releases and that has generally > worked out well. If the content is complete and accurate (which is what > I am aiming for), it can be moved around pretty easy. If you want to put > in a different bucket, feel free to do that. I am not sure whether NM > belongs so the system daemons beat or desktop beat either. I think NM may be another case where having it listed under Desktop will bring better visibility to the feature. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 00:26:27 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:26:27 -0700 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation Message-ID: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> I'm working on some scripting that will attempt to make the Live images each night, and show some output. Here is a first stab at what and where one could find the output: http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/development-live/Live/i686/ I'm no good with html, so when it comes time to script this up, I'll be looking for some help to make this page a bit more useful, and also I'm looking for input on what you'd like to see on these pages. as an aside, we've got a snapshot due this Thursday/Friday and we're still oversize. The durastic space saving changes (package removals) were only done on the beta branch because we were hoping to fix things with better deps/builds for later. Please see the above for what kind of shape we're in. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 03:45:08 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:45:08 -0400 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 17:26 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > I'm working on some scripting that will attempt to make the Live images > each night, and show some output. Here is a first stab at what and > where one could find the output: > > http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/development-live/Live/i686/ > > I'm no good with html, so when it comes time to script this up, I'll be > looking for some help to make this page a bit more useful, and also I'm > looking for input on what you'd like to see on these pages. > > as an aside, we've got a snapshot due this Thursday/Friday and we're > still oversize. The durastic space saving changes (package removals) > were only done on the beta branch because we were hoping to fix things > with better deps/builds for later. Please see the above for what kind > of shape we're in. > Frustrating. Again a lot of low-percentage growth, but what is really killing us is the new packages that keep getting pulled in: new package OpenEXR-libs: 823896 new package libv4l: 170205 new package gegl: 2161070 new package sane-backends-libs: 6404932 new package gnome-games: 18683521 new package babl: 341948 new package sgml-common: 135667 new package python-setuptools: 988965 new package pygtkglext: 368259 new package hplip-libs: 312821 new package sane-backends: 4246863 new package net-snmp-libs: 4707665 new package WebKit-gtk: 12024292 new package ilmbase: 408114 new package freeglut: 428017 new package lzma: 207155 new package PackageKit-udev-helper: 113030 new package PyOpenGL: 5647635 new package libsane-hpaio: 77784 new package iwl5000-firmware: 352062 new package guile: 3473157 new package libggz: 348426 new package PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin: 123694 new package PackageKit-yum-plugin: 114822 new package gnome-session-xsession: 4701 new package gnome-python2-gnomeprint: 443188 new package plymouth-plugin-solar: 512770 new package SDL: 502851 new package libbeagle: 99087 new package evolution-perl: 7823 new package docbook-dtds: 4568267 new package gnuchess: 3959589 new package lohit-fonts-marathi: 97286 new package lm_sensors: 500370 new package gnome-doc-utils-stylesheets: 1090771 new package libicu: 17202512 new package lzma-libs: 92737 new package gtkglext-libs: 484178 new package libieee1284: 69512 new package ggz-client-libs: 614106 new package yelp: 3333760 I assume a good chunk of these is because we need to reinstate the removal of gnome-games and yelp, but there some which are not explainable that way. E.g the new gimp now pulls in WebKit-gtk. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 8 03:53:36 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:23:36 +0530 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <48EC2EC0.4000802@fedoraproject.org> Jesse Keating wrote: > I'm working on some scripting that will attempt to make the Live images > each night, and show some output. Here is a first stab at what and > where one could find the output: > > http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/development-live/Live/i686/ Where are the scripts? Are they posted anywhere publicly? Rahul From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 05:28:00 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:28:00 -0700 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <48EC2EC0.4000802@fedoraproject.org> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <48EC2EC0.4000802@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1223443680.4410.45.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 09:23 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Where are the scripts? Are they posted anywhere publicly? There are none, because they haven't been written yet. This is the result of doing some things by hand, to get a feel for what the script needs to have in it, and what kind of output we want. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 8 06:10:19 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:40:19 +0530 Subject: About Fedora Message-ID: <48EC4ECB.1050303@fedoraproject.org> Hi, The "About Fedora" menu item in the GNOME panel seems to be hard coded. This is a problem for derivative distributions (including future revisions of RHEL). It would be great it was tied to fedora-logos so that it can be replaced/ rebranded easily. Thoughts? Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 8 06:41:47 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:11:47 +0530 Subject: About Fedora In-Reply-To: <48EC4ECB.1050303@fedoraproject.org> References: <48EC4ECB.1050303@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48EC562B.3000204@fedoraproject.org> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > The "About Fedora" menu item in the GNOME panel seems to be hard coded. > This is a problem for derivative distributions (including future > revisions of RHEL). It would be great it was tied to fedora-logos so > that it can be replaced/ rebranded easily. Thoughts? Followup: Replacing fedora-logos and fedora-release with the generic equivalents removes the menu item. However what I would like instead is for it say "About " instead. Rahul From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 06:44:41 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:44:41 +0200 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223448281.3208.37.camel@pc-notebook> On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 23:45 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > I assume a good chunk of these is because we need to reinstate the removal of gnome-games and yelp, but there > some which are not explainable that way. E.g the new gimp now pulls in WebKit-gtk. > I'd say it's rather unfortunate that the switch from xulrunner to webkit is not synchronised in upstream gnome projects, e.g. epiphany stayed for one another release with xulrunner as its default backend (because of still lacking features in webkit) and now I see, gimp already switched :-/ For future it's probably better, because we will be able to drop xulrunner and firefox in favour of smaller, but feature comparable (when webkit-gtk implements some missing functionality), epiphany and webkit-gtk, but the transition state will be pretty hard, since we'll need both during that time... Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Oct 8 07:25:41 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 10:25:41 +0300 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223448281.3208.37.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223448281.3208.37.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <48EC6075.5000900@nicubunu.ro> Martin Sourada wrote: > > I'd say it's rather unfortunate that the switch from xulrunner to webkit > is not synchronised in upstream gnome projects, e.g. epiphany stayed for Hate to bring this, but Gimp is not a GNOME project. > one another release with xulrunner as its default backend (because of > still lacking features in webkit) and now I see, gimp already > switched :-/ For future it's probably better, because we will be able to > drop xulrunner and firefox in favour of smaller, but feature comparable > (when webkit-gtk implements some missing functionality), epiphany and > webkit-gtk, but the transition state will be pretty hard, since we'll > need both during that time... From my understanding, for the foreseeable future Firefox will remain the default browser in Fedora even if we also get a WebKit powered Epiphany (pretty much for the same reason we have not used a Gecko powered Epiphany as default - brand recognition). -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From hughsient at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 08:18:06 2008 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:18:06 +0100 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223453886.3415.13.camel@hughsie-laptop> On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 17:26 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > I'm working on some scripting that will attempt to make the Live > images each night, and show some output. Here is a first stab at what > and where one could find the output: Cool, good work. Would it be possible to actually run the images and see if if they boot? All it would need is starting the image in qemu and then getting the image to ping/send a file/ssh the host, and then we can kill the image. Potentially we could run this script nightly on a while load of different architectures. If you post the scripts, I'll see what I can do. Richard. From hughsient at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 08:20:05 2008 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:20:05 +0100 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223454005.3415.16.camel@hughsie-laptop> On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 23:45 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > new package PackageKit-udev-helper: 113030 Needed for the auto firmware install thing. > new package PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin: 123694 Needed for the auto codec install thing. > new package PackageKit-yum-plugin: 114822 The new name of yum-packagekit, needed so PackageKit can use yum as a backend, and removable as SMART can be used instead. Richard. From nils at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 10:39:05 2008 From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:39:05 +0200 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223462346.15370.3.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 23:45 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 17:26 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > I'm working on some scripting that will attempt to make the Live images > > each night, and show some output. Here is a first stab at what and > > where one could find the output: > > > > http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/development-live/Live/i686/ > > > > I'm no good with html, so when it comes time to script this up, I'll be > > looking for some help to make this page a bit more useful, and also I'm > > looking for input on what you'd like to see on these pages. > > > > as an aside, we've got a snapshot due this Thursday/Friday and we're > > still oversize. The durastic space saving changes (package removals) > > were only done on the beta branch because we were hoping to fix things > > with better deps/builds for later. Please see the above for what kind > > of shape we're in. > > > > Frustrating. Again a lot of low-percentage growth, but what is really > killing us is the new packages that keep getting pulled in: > > new package OpenEXR-libs: 823896 > new package libv4l: 170205 > new package gegl: 2161070 > new package sane-backends-libs: 6404932 > new package gnome-games: 18683521 > new package babl: 341948 > new package sgml-common: 135667 > new package python-setuptools: 988965 > new package pygtkglext: 368259 > new package hplip-libs: 312821 > new package sane-backends: 4246863 > new package net-snmp-libs: 4707665 > new package WebKit-gtk: 12024292 > new package ilmbase: 408114 > new package freeglut: 428017 > new package lzma: 207155 > new package PackageKit-udev-helper: 113030 > new package PyOpenGL: 5647635 > new package libsane-hpaio: 77784 > new package iwl5000-firmware: 352062 > new package guile: 3473157 > new package libggz: 348426 > new package PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin: 123694 > new package PackageKit-yum-plugin: 114822 > new package gnome-session-xsession: 4701 > new package gnome-python2-gnomeprint: 443188 > new package plymouth-plugin-solar: 512770 > new package SDL: 502851 > new package libbeagle: 99087 > new package evolution-perl: 7823 > new package docbook-dtds: 4568267 > new package gnuchess: 3959589 > new package lohit-fonts-marathi: 97286 > new package lm_sensors: 500370 > new package gnome-doc-utils-stylesheets: 1090771 > new package libicu: 17202512 > new package lzma-libs: 92737 > new package gtkglext-libs: 484178 > new package libieee1284: 69512 > new package ggz-client-libs: 614106 > new package yelp: 3333760 > > I assume a good chunk of these is because we need to reinstate the removal of gnome-games and yelp, but there > some which are not explainable that way. E.g the new gimp now pulls in WebKit-gtk. I can deactivate the internal help browser in GIMP, it currently has stability issues anyway. Then it should use the external default browser for displaying help (I don't know if we ship gimp-help in the live media at all). Alternatively, I can split off the internal help browser so we can leave that out on live media -- it should be installed on normal installations though because (once it's not crashing) it's much faster at startup than say firefox. Nils -- Nils Philippsen "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase Red Hat a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nils at redhat.com nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From nils at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 10:47:48 2008 From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:47:48 +0200 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <48EC6075.5000900@nicubunu.ro> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223448281.3208.37.camel@pc-notebook> <48EC6075.5000900@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1223462868.15370.7.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 10:25 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Hate to bring this, but Gimp is not a GNOME project. http://www.gnome.org/projects/ seems to suggest the opposite... ;-) Nils -- Nils Philippsen "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase Red Hat a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nils at redhat.com nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Oct 8 11:18:58 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:18:58 +0300 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223462868.15370.7.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223448281.3208.37.camel@pc-notebook> <48EC6075.5000900@nicubunu.ro> <1223462868.15370.7.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <48EC9722.706@nicubunu.ro> Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 10:25 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > >> Hate to bring this, but Gimp is not a GNOME project. > > http://www.gnome.org/projects/ seems to suggest the opposite... ;-) Well, that is a list of "GNOME-related projects". OTOH, no mention of GNOME here: http://gimp.org/about/introduction.html -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 11:39:37 2008 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:39:37 +0100 Subject: Fedora 10 Release Notes - Desktop In-Reply-To: <48EAFB88.10806@fedoraproject.org> References: <48EAFB88.10806@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1223465977.24710.2.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 11:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > I have started filling in as many details as I could in > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Desktop > > Make sure all the important changes on the desktop for this release is > well documented. Thanks. I've added sections for the BlueZ changes, the GStreamer installation helper, as well as the gnome-lirc-properties addition. Cheers From stevelist at silverorange.com Wed Oct 8 12:09:38 2008 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:09:38 -0300 Subject: About Fedora In-Reply-To: <48EC4ECB.1050303@fedoraproject.org> References: <48EC4ECB.1050303@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48ECA302.1010503@silverorange.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > The "About Fedora" menu item in the GNOME panel seems to be hard coded. > This is a problem for derivative distributions (including future > revisions of RHEL). It would be great it was tied to fedora-logos so > that it can be replaced/ rebranded easily. Thoughts? This probably doesn't help with your particular issue here, but I've long thought that the About Fedora and About GNOME items should be merged into a new window that promotes both GNOME and the distribution. One fewer menu item can't hurt. It could also possibly be incorporated into the About this Computer item. Steven Garrity From nils at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 12:16:43 2008 From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:16:43 +0200 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <48EC9722.706@nicubunu.ro> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223448281.3208.37.camel@pc-notebook> <48EC6075.5000900@nicubunu.ro> <1223462868.15370.7.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <48EC9722.706@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1223468203.15370.14.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 14:18 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Nils Philippsen wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 10:25 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > > >> Hate to bring this, but Gimp is not a GNOME project. > > > > http://www.gnome.org/projects/ seems to suggest the opposite... ;-) > > Well, that is a list of "GNOME-related projects". > OTOH, no mention of GNOME here: http://gimp.org/about/introduction.html I guess this comes from GIMP pre-dating GNOME by some time and boils down to the question of what makes something a "GNOME project" -- it uses GNOME infrastructure FWIW. In the short time I spent on it I've not found a list of components that are officially considered "GNOME" when put together, though. Nils -- Nils Philippsen "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase Red Hat a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nils at redhat.com nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Oct 8 12:57:56 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 15:57:56 +0300 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223468203.15370.14.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223448281.3208.37.camel@pc-notebook> <48EC6075.5000900@nicubunu.ro> <1223462868.15370.7.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <48EC9722.706@nicubunu.ro> <1223468203.15370.14.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <48ECAE54.2030401@nicubunu.ro> Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 14:18 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: >> Nils Philippsen wrote: >>> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 10:25 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: >>>> Hate to bring this, but Gimp is not a GNOME project. >>> http://www.gnome.org/projects/ seems to suggest the opposite... ;-) >> Well, that is a list of "GNOME-related projects". >> OTOH, no mention of GNOME here: http://gimp.org/about/introduction.html > > I guess this comes from GIMP pre-dating GNOME by some time and boils > down to the question of what makes something a "GNOME project" -- it > uses GNOME infrastructure FWIW. > > In the short time I spent on it I've not found a list of components that > are officially considered "GNOME" when put together, though. I know is pointless to continue with this, but I can't stop myself (found a better link): http://www.gimp.org/docs/userfaq.html#Gnome Is true that GIMP uses a lot of GNOME resources, but it still retains its independence, this is why is not likely to expect them to have synchronized library dependencies (like WebKit) or release dates. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From katzj at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 13:02:19 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:02:19 -0400 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223462346.15370.3.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223462346.15370.3.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1223470939.19673.1.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 12:39 +0200, Nils Philippsen wrote: > I can deactivate the internal help browser in GIMP, it currently has > stability issues anyway. Then it should use the external default browser > for displaying help (I don't know if we ship gimp-help in the live media > at all). Alternatively, I can split off the internal help browser so we > can leave that out on live media -- it should be installed on normal > installations though because (once it's not crashing) it's much faster > at startup than say firefox. Is it faster than a new tab? Since while it may be faster to start without firefox already running, I suspect that most people already hvae firefox running most of the time Jeremy From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 14:13:20 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 10:13:20 -0400 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223462346.15370.3.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223462346.15370.3.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1223475200.3787.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 12:39 +0200, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > E.g the new gimp now pulls in WebKit-gtk. > > I can deactivate the internal help browser in GIMP, it currently has > stability issues anyway. Then it should use the external default browser > for displaying help (I don't know if we ship gimp-help in the live media > at all). Alternatively, I can split off the internal help browser so we > can leave that out on live media -- it should be installed on normal > installations though because (once it's not crashing) it's much faster > at startup than say firefox. Splitting the help browser off sounds like a great idea, since we are not shipping the gimp-help on the live cd anyway, as you say. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 8 14:31:03 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 20:01:03 +0530 Subject: PreUpgrade Message-ID: <48ECC427.4020200@fedoraproject.org> Hi, Preupgrade is not in the default package list for the desktop live cd. Considering packagekit feature of prompting on new distro releases which in Fedora would depend on preupgrade, shouldn't be included? Reference: http://www.packagekit.org/img/gpk-distro-upgrade-notify.png Rahul From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 15:05:36 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:05:36 -0700 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223453886.3415.13.camel@hughsie-laptop> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223453886.3415.13.camel@hughsie-laptop> Message-ID: <1223478336.4410.54.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 09:18 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: > Cool, good work. Would it be possible to actually run the images and see > if if they boot? All it would need is starting the image in qemu and > then getting the image to ping/send a file/ssh the host, and then we can > kill the image. Potentially we could run this script nightly on a while > load of different architectures. > > If you post the scripts, I'll see what I can do. There are no scripts yet since I'm still doing things by hand until we're happy with the results. Attempting to boot them is going to be a little harder. These compose attempts will be running within a Xen guest, so I wouldn't be able to make use of say KVM to boot them, and we don't have a lab of test machines in the PHX infrastructure to do QA like tasks like this. We have a long term goal for this, but it's just not there right now. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 15:18:00 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:18:00 -0400 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223479080.3787.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 17:26 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > I'm no good with html, so when it comes time to script this up, I'll be > looking for some help to make this page a bit more useful, and also I'm > looking for input on what you'd like to see on these pages. Things I would like to see are: - full list of packages with sizes - lists of new/removed packages compared to the beta/last snapshot - list of size changes for all packages (including shrinkage) compare to last snapshot. This list would imo be more useful, if the size change was given in absolute terms and the list were sorted by size change. The relative change you are showing now is not really helpful in finding the big offenders, since 50% of a tiny package is still irrelevant. From nils at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 15:49:08 2008 From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:49:08 +0200 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <48ECAE54.2030401@nicubunu.ro> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223448281.3208.37.camel@pc-notebook> <48EC6075.5000900@nicubunu.ro> <1223462868.15370.7.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <48EC9722.706@nicubunu.ro> <1223468203.15370.14.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <48ECAE54.2030401@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1223480948.15370.34.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 15:57 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Nils Philippsen wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 14:18 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > >> Nils Philippsen wrote: > >>> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 10:25 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > >>>> Hate to bring this, but Gimp is not a GNOME project. > >>> http://www.gnome.org/projects/ seems to suggest the opposite... ;-) > >> Well, that is a list of "GNOME-related projects". > >> OTOH, no mention of GNOME here: http://gimp.org/about/introduction.html > > > > I guess this comes from GIMP pre-dating GNOME by some time and boils > > down to the question of what makes something a "GNOME project" -- it > > uses GNOME infrastructure FWIW. > > > > In the short time I spent on it I've not found a list of components that > > are officially considered "GNOME" when put together, though. > > I know is pointless to continue with this, but I can't stop myself > (found a better link): http://www.gimp.org/docs/userfaq.html#Gnome Point taken ;-). I seem to remember though that once upon a time GIMP was listed as part of GNOME (when a new GNOME version was announced, by the GNOME people -- maybe there's a different POV on this from both projects...). > Is true that GIMP uses a lot of GNOME resources, but it still retains > its independence, this is why is not likely to expect them to have > synchronized library dependencies (like WebKit) or release dates. Agreed. Nils -- Nils Philippsen "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase Red Hat a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nils at redhat.com nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From nils at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 15:55:52 2008 From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:55:52 +0200 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223470939.19673.1.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223462346.15370.3.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1223470939.19673.1.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1223481352.15370.42.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 09:02 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 12:39 +0200, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > I can deactivate the internal help browser in GIMP, it currently has > > stability issues anyway. Then it should use the external default browser > > for displaying help (I don't know if we ship gimp-help in the live media > > at all). Alternatively, I can split off the internal help browser so we > > can leave that out on live media -- it should be installed on normal > > installations though because (once it's not crashing) it's much faster > > at startup than say firefox. > > Is it faster than a new tab? Since while it may be faster to start > without firefox already running, I suspect that most people already hvae > firefox running most of the time With a running firefox it doesn't make much difference, but an external web browser likely doesn't have the table-of-contents tree beside the actual help content that the built-in browser has. Users that prefer an external browser can configure GIMP that way. Nils -- Nils Philippsen "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase Red Hat a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nils at redhat.com nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From hughsient at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 16:02:32 2008 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:02:32 +0100 Subject: PreUpgrade In-Reply-To: <48ECC427.4020200@fedoraproject.org> References: <48ECC427.4020200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1223481752.3355.14.camel@hughsie-laptop> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 20:01 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Preupgrade is not in the default package list for the desktop live cd. > > Considering packagekit feature of prompting on new distro releases which > in Fedora would depend on preupgrade, shouldn't be included? Nahh, PackageKit (the yum backend) automatically installs preupgrade the first time it gets scheduled to do a check for new distro upgrades. It needs to do such a thing as the preupgrade package holds the data about what upgrades are available. Richard. From nils at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 17:18:52 2008 From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:18:52 +0200 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223475200.3787.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223437508.29922.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223462346.15370.3.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> <1223475200.3787.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223486332.15370.45.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 10:13 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 12:39 +0200, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > > > E.g the new gimp now pulls in WebKit-gtk. > > > > I can deactivate the internal help browser in GIMP, it currently has > > stability issues anyway. Then it should use the external default browser > > for displaying help (I don't know if we ship gimp-help in the live media > > at all). Alternatively, I can split off the internal help browser so we > > can leave that out on live media -- it should be installed on normal > > installations though because (once it's not crashing) it's much faster > > at startup than say firefox. > > Splitting the help browser off sounds like a great idea, since we are > not shipping the gimp-help on the live cd anyway, as you say. 2.6.0-3 has the help browser splitt off into gimp-help-browser. I've added obsolete lines so that package upgrades from older versions will pull in the browser subpackage, as well as adding this to comps for F10. Nils -- Nils Philippsen "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase Red Hat a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nils at redhat.com nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From wwoods at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 18:05:27 2008 From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:05:27 -0400 Subject: PreUpgrade In-Reply-To: <1223481752.3355.14.camel@hughsie-laptop> References: <48ECC427.4020200@fedoraproject.org> <1223481752.3355.14.camel@hughsie-laptop> Message-ID: <1223489127.3080.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 17:02 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 20:01 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Preupgrade is not in the default package list for the desktop live cd. > > > > Considering packagekit feature of prompting on new distro releases which > > in Fedora would depend on preupgrade, shouldn't be included? > > Nahh, PackageKit (the yum backend) automatically installs preupgrade the > first time it gets scheduled to do a check for new distro upgrades. > > It needs to do such a thing as the preupgrade package holds the data > about what upgrades are available. ...although the plan for F10 is to have this data provided by mirrormanager, and have PK/preupgrade/livecd-creator/etc. use that to figure out what releases are available. So PK's yum backend won't directly require preupgrade anymore. So it's a valid question. In theory I think it makes sense for all Desktop installs. But I'd like to see wider testing of preupgrade-0.9.8 before I commit to that. -w From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 8 18:08:57 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:38:57 +0530 Subject: PreUpgrade In-Reply-To: <1223489127.3080.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <48ECC427.4020200@fedoraproject.org> <1223481752.3355.14.camel@hughsie-laptop> <1223489127.3080.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <48ECF739.2010804@fedoraproject.org> Will Woods wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 17:02 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: >> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 20:01 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > So it's a valid question. In theory I think it makes sense for all > Desktop installs. But I'd like to see wider testing of preupgrade-0.9.8 > before I commit to that. Is a testing day scheduled for this? I would like to participate and I am sure others would as well. Rahul From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 18:20:22 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:20:22 -0400 Subject: PreUpgrade In-Reply-To: <1223489127.3080.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <48ECC427.4020200@fedoraproject.org> <1223481752.3355.14.camel@hughsie-laptop> <1223489127.3080.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223490022.3787.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 14:05 -0400, Will Woods wrote: > So it's a valid question. In theory I think it makes sense for all > Desktop installs. But I'd like to see wider testing of preupgrade-0.9.8 > before I commit to that. I didn't think the livecd could do upgrades. Only new installations, no ? From katzj at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 18:51:53 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:51:53 -0400 Subject: PreUpgrade In-Reply-To: <1223490022.3787.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <48ECC427.4020200@fedoraproject.org> <1223481752.3355.14.camel@hughsie-laptop> <1223489127.3080.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223490022.3787.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223491913.19673.75.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 14:20 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 14:05 -0400, Will Woods wrote: > > So it's a valid question. In theory I think it makes sense for all > > Desktop installs. But I'd like to see wider testing of preupgrade-0.9.8 > > before I commit to that. > > I didn't think the livecd could do upgrades. > Only new installations, no ? You can't use the livecd to do an upgrade. A system that was installed via livecd can be upgraded via normal means (including preupgrade) Jeremy From walters at verbum.org Wed Oct 8 19:29:40 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:29:40 -0400 Subject: PreUpgrade In-Reply-To: <1223491913.19673.75.camel@aglarond.local> References: <48ECC427.4020200@fedoraproject.org> <1223481752.3355.14.camel@hughsie-laptop> <1223489127.3080.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223490022.3787.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223491913.19673.75.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 14:20 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 14:05 -0400, Will Woods wrote: >> > So it's a valid question. In theory I think it makes sense for all >> > Desktop installs. But I'd like to see wider testing of preupgrade-0.9.8 >> > before I commit to that. >> >> I didn't think the livecd could do upgrades. >> Only new installations, no ? > > You can't use the livecd to do an upgrade. A system that was installed > via livecd can be upgraded via normal means (including preupgrade) Which is fine - we want people to use preupgrade since it's a far better user experience in general. From walters at verbum.org Wed Oct 8 19:33:34 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:33:34 -0400 Subject: Sudo for first user In-Reply-To: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> References: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > You can add the following snippet to the fedora-desktop ks file into a init > script to make sudo just work for the first user. It can't be added to %post > since firstboot wouldn't have launched then. Let me know what you think: So, consensus to revisit this for F11? We can go ahead and make a feature page now with the plans. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 8 19:40:23 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 01:10:23 +0530 Subject: Sudo for first user In-Reply-To: References: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48ED0CA7.4010606@fedoraproject.org> Colin Walters wrote: > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: >> Hi >> >> You can add the following snippet to the fedora-desktop ks file into a init >> script to make sudo just work for the first user. It can't be added to %post >> since firstboot wouldn't have launched then. Let me know what you think: > > So, consensus to revisit this for F11? We can go ahead and make a > feature page now with the plans. Sure. Do you want me to do that? Adding some info on PolicyKit and console helper plans for integration with sudo would be good. Rahul From walters at verbum.org Wed Oct 8 21:03:42 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:03:42 -0400 Subject: Sudo for first user In-Reply-To: <48ED0CA7.4010606@fedoraproject.org> References: <48E7964E.7040500@fedoraproject.org> <48ED0CA7.4010606@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Colin Walters wrote: >> >> On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> You can add the following snippet to the fedora-desktop ks file into a >>> init >>> script to make sudo just work for the first user. It can't be added to >>> %post >>> since firstboot wouldn't have launched then. Let me know what you think: >> >> So, consensus to revisit this for F11? We can go ahead and make a >> feature page now with the plans. > > Sure. Do you want me to do that? > > Adding some info on PolicyKit and console helper plans for integration with > sudo would be good. I can do that part. From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 21:07:04 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:07:04 -0400 Subject: some space saving Message-ID: <1223500024.3909.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Here is a patch that adds -gnome-games -yelp -gimp-help-browser to the desktop spin kickstart file. With todays rawhide, it brings the size down to 715M. Hopefully, with tomorrows rawhide (which actually has a split off gimp-help-browser), it'll be much closer to 700. I would have pushed this to the spin-kickstarts repo, but git gives me an error. Can someone else please push this ? Matthias -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 0001-save-some-more-space.still-too-large.patch Type: text/x-patch Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Wed Oct 8 20:46:44 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:46:44 +0300 Subject: (globally) customizing the (gnome) desktop Message-ID: <20081008204644.GA20757@victor.nirvana> Hi, probably not fedora-specific, but I'd like to deploy Fedora with some local modifications to the default account setup. These would be o keyboard indicator in the panel with specific predefined keyboard layouts o some more icons like the home Folder o a default background (unless the user has already chosen one) o turning the system off instead of loging out when pressing the power button o Make Ctrl-Alt-Del give a logout screen like many people are used from another OS o activating compiz by default (but allowing the user to turn it off) o and maybe some more I forget about now I hope I can somehow control this by some magic under /etc/gconf. I understand that there is a way to mark some gconf entries as default values that the user can still override. But the problem would be what values these are. Could someone show me the direction? Thanks! -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 21:18:05 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:18:05 -0700 Subject: (globally) customizing the (gnome) desktop In-Reply-To: <20081008204644.GA20757@victor.nirvana> References: <20081008204644.GA20757@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <1223500685.4410.84.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 23:46 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > I hope I can somehow control this by some magic under /etc/gconf. I > understand that there is a way to mark some gconf entries as default > values that the user can still override. But the problem would be what > values these are. Could someone show me the direction? Thanks! Wouldn't this be a job for Sabayon? http://live.gnome.org/Sabayon -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Oct 8 22:46:08 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 00:46:08 +0200 Subject: some space saving In-Reply-To: <1223500024.3909.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223500024.3909.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <48ED3830.4080106@kanarip.com> Matthias Clasen wrote: > Here is a patch that adds > > -gnome-games > -yelp > -gimp-help-browser > > to the desktop spin kickstart file. With todays rawhide, it brings the > size down to 715M. Hopefully, with tomorrows rawhide (which actually has > a split off gimp-help-browser), it'll be much closer to 700. > > I would have pushed this to the spin-kickstarts repo, but git gives me > an error. Can someone else please push this ? > What error did you get? Maybe I can help you resolve the actual issue. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Wed Oct 8 22:47:05 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:47:05 +0300 Subject: (globally) customizing the (gnome) desktop In-Reply-To: <1223500685.4410.84.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <20081008204644.GA20757@victor.nirvana> <1223500685.4410.84.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081008224705.GB20757@victor.nirvana> On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 02:18:05PM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 23:46 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > > I hope I can somehow control this by some magic under /etc/gconf. I > > understand that there is a way to mark some gconf entries as default > > values that the user can still override. But the problem would be what > > values these are. Could someone show me the direction? Thanks! > > Wouldn't this be a job for Sabayon? http://live.gnome.org/Sabayon Very nice tool! Thanks for the direction! I'd love to see it change values under /etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory/ /etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults/ instead of touching the users' folders, but maybe I can just pick the settings targetted for the homes and meddle them into /etc. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 22:58:28 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:58:28 -0400 Subject: some space saving In-Reply-To: <48ED3830.4080106@kanarip.com> References: <1223500024.3909.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48ED3830.4080106@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1223506708.3909.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 00:46 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Here is a patch that adds > > > > -gnome-games > > -yelp > > -gimp-help-browser > > > > to the desktop spin kickstart file. With todays rawhide, it brings the > > size down to 715M. Hopefully, with tomorrows rawhide (which actually has > > a split off gimp-help-browser), it'll be much closer to 700. > > > > I would have pushed this to the spin-kickstarts repo, but git gives me > > an error. Can someone else please push this ? > > > > What error did you get? Maybe I can help you resolve the actual issue. > It has been fixed now. Some permission mess up in the repo. From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 23:09:15 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 16:09:15 -0700 Subject: some space saving In-Reply-To: <1223500024.3909.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223500024.3909.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223507355.4410.90.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 17:07 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > I would have pushed this to the spin-kickstarts repo, but git gives me > an error. Can someone else please push this ? I pushed it, and did a compose with it: http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/development-live/Live/i686/ -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Oct 8 23:24:04 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 01:24:04 +0200 Subject: some space saving In-Reply-To: <1223506708.3909.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223500024.3909.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48ED3830.4080106@kanarip.com> <1223506708.3909.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <48ED4114.9080904@kanarip.com> Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 00:46 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >> Matthias Clasen wrote: >>> Here is a patch that adds >>> >>> -gnome-games >>> -yelp >>> -gimp-help-browser >>> >>> to the desktop spin kickstart file. With todays rawhide, it brings the >>> size down to 715M. Hopefully, with tomorrows rawhide (which actually has >>> a split off gimp-help-browser), it'll be much closer to 700. >>> >>> I would have pushed this to the spin-kickstarts repo, but git gives me >>> an error. Can someone else please push this ? >>> >> What error did you get? Maybe I can help you resolve the actual issue. >> > > It has been fixed now. Some permission mess up in the repo. > Was it F-10-Beta branch related by any chance? I've had refs/heads/F-10-Beta set to read-only as to freeze the branch. Should you have had any pending commits on that branch, that you had not yet pushed, git would error out with permission denied trying to write to the refs/heads/F-10-Beta file... Please let me know so I know whether setting head files to read-only is a viable solution to freeze a branch. Thanks, Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Oct 8 23:51:11 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 16:51:11 -0700 Subject: some space saving In-Reply-To: <48ED4114.9080904@kanarip.com> References: <1223500024.3909.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48ED3830.4080106@kanarip.com> <1223506708.3909.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48ED4114.9080904@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1223509871.4410.91.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 01:24 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Please let me know so I know whether setting head files to read-only is > a viable solution to freeze a branch. The problem was that ricky misread your request and locked down the entire repo, rather than just the branch. He reverted it so that just the branch is locked down. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Oct 9 00:46:01 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:46:01 -0700 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223479080.3787.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223479080.3787.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223513161.4410.98.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 11:18 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: at http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/development-live/Live/i686/ > - full list of packages with sizes We have this, just not sorted in a good way just yet. That'll be easy to fix. > - lists of new/removed packages compared to the beta/last snapshot That is there now, for both beta and the last day's attempt. > - list of size changes for all packages (including shrinkage) compare to > last snapshot. There. > This list would imo be more useful, if the size change > was given in absolute terms and the list were sorted by size change. The > relative change you are showing now is not really helpful in finding the > big offenders, since 50% of a tiny package is still irrelevant. The growth and shrinkage are sorted by the absolute amount of growth or shrinkage. The adds and removals are sorted by the size of the package. Hoping this helps! -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Oct 9 01:28:50 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:28:50 -0400 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223513161.4410.98.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223479080.3787.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223513161.4410.98.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223515730.3909.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 17:46 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 11:18 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > at http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/development-live/Live/i686/ > > > - full list of packages with sizes > > We have this, just not sorted in a good way just yet. That'll be easy > to fix. > > > - lists of new/removed packages compared to the beta/last snapshot > > That is there now, for both beta and the last day's attempt. > > > - list of size changes for all packages (including shrinkage) compare to > > last snapshot. > > There. > > > This list would imo be more useful, if the size change > > was given in absolute terms and the list were sorted by size change. The > > relative change you are showing now is not really helpful in finding the > > big offenders, since 50% of a tiny package is still irrelevant. > > The growth and shrinkage are sorted by the absolute amount of growth or > shrinkage. The adds and removals are sorted by the size of the package. > > Hoping this helps! > Very nice, thanks Jesse. Of course, the next step is that we need a script to do a similar comparison for the files in an individual package. Or does some rpmutils package already ship such a tool ? From kanarip at kanarip.com Thu Oct 9 08:57:57 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:57:57 +0200 Subject: About Fedora In-Reply-To: <48EC4ECB.1050303@fedoraproject.org> References: <48EC4ECB.1050303@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48EDC795.2020108@kanarip.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > The "About Fedora" menu item in the GNOME panel seems to be hard coded. > This is a problem for derivative distributions (including future > revisions of RHEL). It would be great it was tied to fedora-logos so > that it can be replaced/ rebranded easily. Thoughts? > The About Fedora menu item comes from fedora-release-notes, not fedora-logos Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From davidz at redhat.com Thu Oct 9 14:35:02 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:35:02 -0400 Subject: (globally) customizing the (gnome) desktop In-Reply-To: <20081008224705.GB20757@victor.nirvana> References: <20081008204644.GA20757@victor.nirvana> <1223500685.4410.84.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20081008224705.GB20757@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <1223562902.13780.41.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 01:47 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 02:18:05PM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 23:46 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > > > I hope I can somehow control this by some magic under /etc/gconf. I > > > understand that there is a way to mark some gconf entries as default > > > values that the user can still override. But the problem would be what > > > values these are. Could someone show me the direction? Thanks! > > > > Wouldn't this be a job for Sabayon? http://live.gnome.org/Sabayon > > Very nice tool! Thanks for the direction! > > I'd love to see it change values under > > /etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory/ > /etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults/ > > instead of touching the users' folders, but maybe I can just pick the > settings targetted for the homes and meddle them into /etc. Be careful not to overwrite files provided by packages; for Fedora 9 (or maybe Fedora 8), I believe we added another couple of layers such that the system administrator can specify defaults / mandatory stuff without conflicting with files from packages. See /etc/gconf/2/path for details. It's entirely possible that our Sabayon packages needs to be aware of this change, I don't know. David From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Oct 9 14:58:46 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:58:46 -0400 Subject: About Fedora In-Reply-To: <48EDC795.2020108@kanarip.com> References: <48EC4ECB.1050303@fedoraproject.org> <48EDC795.2020108@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1223564326.3481.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 10:57 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi, > > > > The "About Fedora" menu item in the GNOME panel seems to be hard coded. > > This is a problem for derivative distributions (including future > > revisions of RHEL). It would be great it was tied to fedora-logos so > > that it can be replaced/ rebranded easily. Thoughts? > > > > The About Fedora menu item comes from fedora-release-notes, not fedora-logos One problem with "About Fedora" that I noticed recently is that we show the menuitem, even if yelp is not installed, e.g. on the live cd. We should fix that. From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Oct 9 15:42:05 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:42:05 -0700 Subject: Nightly attempts of live image creation In-Reply-To: <1223515730.3909.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223425587.4410.43.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223479080.3787.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1223513161.4410.98.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223515730.3909.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223566926.4410.99.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 21:28 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Very nice, thanks Jesse. Of course, the next step is that we need a > script to do a similar comparison for the files in an individual > package. Or does some rpmutils package already ship such a tool ? > Hrm, I don't think so, but we should ask around. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From shambo.linux at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 05:14:22 2008 From: shambo.linux at gmail.com (Shambo Bose) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:44:22 +0530 Subject: Regarding Compiz Fusion Message-ID: Hi, I think if possible Compiz Fusion with Emerald theme manager should be added to the fedora repository and it should be made available out of the box for a better desktop user experience. Thanks. regards, Shambo Bose -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Sun Oct 12 06:33:12 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:33:12 +0300 Subject: Regarding Compiz Fusion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081012063312.GA23998@victor.nirvana> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 10:44:22AM +0530, Shambo Bose wrote: > Hi, > > I think if possible Compiz Fusion with Emerald theme manager should be added > to the fedora repository and it should be made available out of the box for > a better desktop user experience. > > Thanks. > > > regards, > > Shambo Bose I'd also love compiz enabled as default, but currently the intel driver will fail with opengl apps within compiz until DRI2 gets released. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 17:03:41 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:03:41 +0000 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? Message-ID: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> Hi, most of you probably know, but I'll write it again - Echo Icon Theme is the default icon theme in F10 since Beta (for testing purposes and exposition to wider audience) and I am one of the feature owners. The change is rather small (in that it does not break things, replaces just graphics, no code) but pretty much exposed. I'd like to make clear that we are not going to go against general opinion and I deem it natural for the Art (since it's art) and Desktop (since it's going to be default in Gnome Desktop) Teams to decide whether we are ready or not. Because of the nature of the change it is IMHO possible to make the decision last minute (i.e. around the development freeze). What I'd like to ask you now is the preferred way to decide upon it. Should we hold a irc meeting, do a mail vote, set up a vote in the fedora voting system, other way? I'd prefer the vote in the fedora voting system (opened for Art and Desktop team members only), but if you think otherwise would be better, don't hesitate to suggest. I also think that about three or four days for the vote should be enough, so I propose the voting dates to be set to 2008/10/23--2008/10/26. Is that OK with you? Thanks for your comments, Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From davidz at redhat.com Mon Oct 13 17:36:10 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:36:10 -0400 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 17:03 +0000, Martin Sourada wrote: > to ask you now is the preferred way to decide upon it. Should we hold a > irc meeting, do a mail vote, set up a vote in the fedora voting system, > other way? I know I'm ranting in the wrong forum (but anyone should feel free to forward it to the Fedora board or whatever powers that be), but, FFS, can we please get away from this voting business? It's a disease. Consider what happened if we started voting on what patches should go in tarballs? Or what the dialogs in your desktop looked like? Or what options to use by default. Or what IO scheduler to use in the kernel. IMNSHO, voting is making Fedora turn into something mediocre that I, for one, really don't want to work on, much less rant about. Heck, I'd be running Debian if I wanted something like this. The fact that you are proposing a vote only shows there's a tremendous problem in Fedora. You guys hanging out on fedora-art-list that is interested in the visual of the desktop _really_ _really_ need to grow up and work with upstream projects instead of sitting in your own little Fedora cube disconnected from the rest of the world. With your stupid voting system. If you think what you're doing is "value add" that makes Fedora look better than the "competition" you are wrong. If you grasped what free software / culture is _really_ about you'd know already that it's about working together to deliver great value that can be maintained and improved by something larger than yourselves. It's not about competing. Not even if the socalled "competition" that you're trying so hard to emulate have been to space and all that. It's about working together. And sometimes about being that beacon that leads the way for the less enlightened; e.g. go out there, talk with people working on the same stuff and start working together. It's definitely not about stupid zero-sum games with misunderstood "value adds" that may have questionable value in the first place. The fact that the Fedora leadership allows this art charade to go on and on and on for eons is complete and utter FAIL. And it's making contributors (and, no, not just me) move away from Fedora only to focus on upstream. You are killing Fedora slowly this way. David From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 18:04:49 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:04:49 +0000 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 13:36 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 17:03 +0000, Martin Sourada wrote: > > to ask you now is the preferred way to decide upon it. Should we hold a > > irc meeting, do a mail vote, set up a vote in the fedora voting system, > > other way? > > I know I'm ranting in the wrong forum (but anyone should feel free to > forward it to the Fedora board or whatever powers that be), but, FFS, > can we please get away from this voting business? It's a disease. > > Consider what happened if we started voting on what patches should go in > tarballs? Or what the dialogs in your desktop looked like? Or what > options to use by default. Or what IO scheduler to use in the kernel. > We are deciding about default look'n'feel of the Fedora Desktop, not about (kernel) patches. Long ago, Red Hat hired artist, Diana Fong started Echo Icon Theme. She has left since but community take the project under it's hood and transfered it to less Fedora specific space. Technically the development of Echo Icon Theme is an Upstream job, though done by fedora artists and aiming to be default on Fedora and I'd say we are now as open with our development as gnome's default or kde's default icon themes are. > IMNSHO, voting is making Fedora turn into something mediocre that I, for > one, really don't want to work on, much less rant about. Heck, I'd be > running Debian if I wanted something like this. > Well, Fedora has grown quite a big Art team, dedicated to create art for Fedora, it's a pity not everything is easily available outside of Fedora, but we try to be as much transparent as possible and act as an Upstream for Fedora. With many people we are bound to have different opinions about art and thus we need to come to some sort of compromise - and that's what the Art Team uses the voting system for. > The fact that you are proposing a vote only shows there's a tremendous Definitely not. Voting is the last option when there is no better way on deciding things (like with Fedora 10 Theme where there were enough people interested working on four different themes, but for default we need to chose one). > problem in Fedora. You guys hanging out on fedora-art-list that is > interested in the visual of the desktop _really_ _really_ need to grow > up and work with upstream projects instead of sitting in your own little > Fedora cube disconnected from the rest of the world. With your stupid > voting system. > There's nothing wrong with voting system, if used with care. Fedora Art isn't about competition but about collaboration. We'd like Fedora to have distinctive look from other distros and we seem to have enough people to do so, for some people it indeed feels like competition and motivates them to work harder - and that's a good thing - however when you accept is as a competition, you're disappointed when you are not the winner - and it's easier to accept "defeat" when it's decided by community that by one (wo)man. > If you think what you're doing is "value add" that makes Fedora look > better than the "competition" you are wrong. If you grasped what free No. It's not about adding value or directly competing with others. We just want Fedora to be usable, look nice and have distinctive looks from other distros. > software / culture is _really_ about you'd know already that it's about > working together to deliver great value that can be maintained and > improved by something larger than yourselves. It's not about competing. Agreed. > Not even if the socalled "competition" that you're trying so hard to > emulate have been to space and all that. It's about working together. I think you misunderstood our intentions here. We are trying to work together on Fedora Art, it does not always involve directly contributing to non-fedora-related upstreams, but we have no restrictions for doing so. Art is slightly different from software and there are bound to be more upstreams than just one (in case of icons think e.g. about tango, oxygen, mist, gnome-icon-theme, hicolor, echo-icon-theme, ...) and it's not a bad thing. We are not all doing the same thing, though we are achieving similar ideas. It's not like "hundred and one implementation of quick sort", but rather like "hundred and one web sites of world universities". > And sometimes about being that beacon that leads the way for the less > enlightened; e.g. go out there, talk with people working on the same > stuff and start working together. It's definitely not about stupid > zero-sum games with misunderstood "value adds" that may have > questionable value in the first place. > Yeah, I've already did (in case of nodoka gtk engine) and we hope to work together more. In case of icon themes we can at most coordinate our efforts on making every icon on the desktop themable. > The fact that the Fedora leadership allows this art charade to go on and > on and on for eons is complete and utter FAIL. And it's making > contributors (and, no, not just me) move away from Fedora only to focus > on upstream. You are killing Fedora slowly this way. > Well, seeing Fedora contributors moving to upstream is IMHO pretty much desired and as Fedora is all about upstream it does not mean killing it at all. Just my two cents ;-) Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 13 18:07:34 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:37:34 +0530 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <48F38E66.2060403@fedoraproject.org> Martin Sourada wrote: > Hi, > > most of you probably know, but I'll write it again - Echo Icon Theme is > the default icon theme in F10 since Beta (for testing purposes and > exposition to wider audience) and I am one of the feature owners. The > change is rather small (in that it does not break things, replaces just > graphics, no code) but pretty much exposed. I'd like to make clear that > we are not going to go against general opinion and I deem it natural for > the Art (since it's art) and Desktop (since it's going to be default in > Gnome Desktop) Teams to decide whether we are ready or not. > > Because of the nature of the change it is IMHO possible to make the > decision last minute (i.e. around the development freeze). What I'd like > to ask you now is the preferred way to decide upon it. Should we hold a > irc meeting, do a mail vote, set up a vote in the fedora voting system, > other way? I'd prefer the vote in the fedora voting system (opened for > Art and Desktop team members only), but if you think otherwise would be > better, don't hesitate to suggest. > > I also think that about three or four days for the vote should be > enough, so I propose the voting dates to be set to > 2008/10/23--2008/10/26. Is that OK with you? > > Thanks for your comments, Since FESCo already made the decision that it sticks if the coverage is good enough, what does the current status look like for the base icons? Rahul From martin at gamesplace.info Mon Oct 13 18:09:11 2008 From: martin at gamesplace.info (Martin =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgens?=) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:09:11 +0200 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1223921351.2894.2.camel@martin-laptop> Just from an end user perspective I find that Echo looks very sexy in the Beta and that we'd stick with it. Although the communication could have been better. Martin Am Montag, den 13.10.2008, 17:03 +0000 schrieb Martin Sourada: > Hi, > > most of you probably know, but I'll write it again - Echo Icon Theme is > the default icon theme in F10 since Beta (for testing purposes and > exposition to wider audience) and I am one of the feature owners. The > change is rather small (in that it does not break things, replaces just > graphics, no code) but pretty much exposed. I'd like to make clear that > we are not going to go against general opinion and I deem it natural for > the Art (since it's art) and Desktop (since it's going to be default in > Gnome Desktop) Teams to decide whether we are ready or not. > > Because of the nature of the change it is IMHO possible to make the > decision last minute (i.e. around the development freeze). What I'd like > to ask you now is the preferred way to decide upon it. Should we hold a > irc meeting, do a mail vote, set up a vote in the fedora voting system, > other way? I'd prefer the vote in the fedora voting system (opened for > Art and Desktop team members only), but if you think otherwise would be > better, don't hesitate to suggest. > > I also think that about three or four days for the vote should be > enough, so I propose the voting dates to be set to > 2008/10/23--2008/10/26. Is that OK with you? > > Thanks for your comments, > Martin > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 13 18:20:40 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:50:40 +0530 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <1223921351.2894.2.camel@martin-laptop> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223921351.2894.2.camel@martin-laptop> Message-ID: <48F39178.2040100@fedoraproject.org> Martin J?rgens wrote: > Just from an end user perspective I find that Echo looks very sexy in > the Beta and that we'd stick with it. Although the communication could > have been better. > > Martin Was there a communication gap? It was in the Fedora 10 feature list and was mentioned in the Fedora 10 beta release notes. Rahul From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 18:24:03 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:24:03 +0000 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <48F38E66.2060403@fedoraproject.org> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F38E66.2060403@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1223922243.2874.58.camel@pc-notebook> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 23:37 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Since FESCo already made the decision that it sticks if the coverage is > good enough, what does the current status look like for the base icons? > Based on the list I created [1] for that we have covered about 95% and still need to create about 15 icons. It's likely that we make these in time, but it's also good to decide if the icons that are included are good enough - and different people can have different opinions about that. > Rahul Martin References: [1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/ToDo/BaseSet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Oct 13 18:39:03 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:39:03 -0700 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1223923143.3327.36.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 18:04 +0000, Martin Sourada wrote: > No. It's not about adding value or directly competing with others. We > just want Fedora to be usable, look nice and have distinctive looks from > other distros. Why is looking different, at the icon level, a good thing? Does it not just confuse the greater community? -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gnomeuser at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 18:39:47 2008 From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:39:47 +0200 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0810131139q5a929f8cx1dfdb6f6358c6ae3@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/13 David Zeuthen > On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 17:03 +0000, Martin Sourada wrote: > > to ask you now is the preferred way to decide upon it. Should we hold a > > irc meeting, do a mail vote, set up a vote in the fedora voting system, > > other way? > > I know I'm ranting in the wrong forum (but anyone should feel free to > forward it to the Fedora board or whatever powers that be), but, FFS, > can we please get away from this voting business? It's a disease. > > Consider what happened if we started voting on what patches should go in > tarballs? Or what the dialogs in your desktop looked like? Or what > options to use by default. Or what IO scheduler to use in the kernel. > > IMNSHO, voting is making Fedora turn into something mediocre that I, for > one, really don't want to work on, much less rant about. Heck, I'd be > running Debian if I wanted something like this. > > The fact that you are proposing a vote only shows there's a tremendous > problem in Fedora. You guys hanging out on fedora-art-list that is > interested in the visual of the desktop _really_ _really_ need to grow > up and work with upstream projects instead of sitting in your own little > Fedora cube disconnected from the rest of the world. With your stupid > voting system. > > If you think what you're doing is "value add" that makes Fedora look > better than the "competition" you are wrong. If you grasped what free > software / culture is _really_ about you'd know already that it's about > working together to deliver great value that can be maintained and > improved by something larger than yourselves. It's not about competing. > Not even if the socalled "competition" that you're trying so hard to > emulate have been to space and all that. It's about working together. > And sometimes about being that beacon that leads the way for the less > enlightened; e.g. go out there, talk with people working on the same > stuff and start working together. It's definitely not about stupid > zero-sum games with misunderstood "value adds" that may have > questionable value in the first place. > > The fact that the Fedora leadership allows this art charade to go on and > on and on for eons is complete and utter FAIL. And it's making > contributors (and, no, not just me) move away from Fedora only to focus > on upstream. You are killing Fedora slowly this way. I can only applaud you for saying this so clearly. I fully agree, all of Fedora ahould be about upstream participation where possible. Added value here is a decoy, it trades off artistic satisfaction for full coverage, accesability and a unified UI experience. - David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Oct 13 18:43:30 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:43:30 -0700 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <1223921351.2894.2.camel@martin-laptop> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223921351.2894.2.camel@martin-laptop> Message-ID: <1223923410.3327.37.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 20:09 +0200, Martin J?rgens wrote: > Just from an end user perspective I find that Echo looks very sexy in > the Beta and that we'd stick with it. Although the communication could > have been better. Unfortunately artistic opinions differ wildly. Every single person that has made a comment to me regarding the icon set has made it a negative comment. Those that like it maybe just choose not to say anything. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 18:51:40 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:51:40 +0000 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <1223923410.3327.37.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223921351.2894.2.camel@martin-laptop> <1223923410.3327.37.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223923900.2874.61.camel@pc-notebook> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 11:43 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 20:09 +0200, Martin J?rgens wrote: > > Just from an end user perspective I find that Echo looks very sexy in > > the Beta and that we'd stick with it. Although the communication could > > have been better. > > Unfortunately artistic opinions differ wildly. Every single person that Definitely. > has made a comment to me regarding the icon set has made it a negative > comment. Those that like it maybe just choose not to say anything. > Well, it's true negative opinions are usually heard more, so when we want to chose, we need to heard opinion from most people that are willing to give it - I think voting is a good way to do that, but I may be wrong. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 19:01:49 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:01:49 +0000 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1223923143.3327.36.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> <1223923143.3327.36.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223924509.2874.71.camel@pc-notebook> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 11:39 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 18:04 +0000, Martin Sourada wrote: > > No. It's not about adding value or directly competing with others. We > > just want Fedora to be usable, look nice and have distinctive looks from > > other distros. > > Why is looking different, at the icon level, a good thing? Does it not > just confuse the greater community? Well, gnome and kde already look different on that level. Does that confuse greater community? Echo is *just another* icon set that is coincidentally developed by some members of the Art Team who'd like to see it as a default icon theme Fedora wide (as opposed to gnome wide or kde wide) when ready for that. Does it bring anything to the wider upstream community? I hope that in the long run it will ease icon themes creation process for others as well (e.g. with helping with replacing unthemable icons by themable ones). Also I hope it will emerge into cross desktop icon theme used by much wider audience than just Fedora users. Does it bring anything to Fedora user? Different, more lively, more 3D-like art. Perhaps wider coverage of Fedora specific stuff (but that does not need to be limited to Echo). Is that a good thing? Seriously, who is to decide that? Definitely not me. I believe Art and Desktop Teams (and various other desktop SIGs when Echo gets selected for other DE's than gnome) together have the right to do so. If not, we'll continue to be just another alternative icon theme, developed by some of the fedora artists ;-) Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 13 19:02:17 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:02:17 -0400 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <1223923410.3327.37.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223921351.2894.2.camel@martin-laptop> <1223923410.3327.37.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223924537.16857.57.camel@rosebud> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 11:43 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 20:09 +0200, Martin J?rgens wrote: > > Just from an end user perspective I find that Echo looks very sexy in > > the Beta and that we'd stick with it. Although the communication could > > have been better. > > Unfortunately artistic opinions differ wildly. Every single person that > has made a comment to me regarding the icon set has made it a negative > comment. Those that like it maybe just choose not to say anything. > the beta review here: http://libregeek.blogspot.com/2008/10/quick-glance-at-fedora-10-beta.html said: "As soon as I logged in, the first major change I noticed is the new Echo-Icon theme. The icon set is great and gave the desktop an elegant look and feel." -sv From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Oct 13 19:25:47 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:25:47 -0700 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <1223924537.16857.57.camel@rosebud> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223921351.2894.2.camel@martin-laptop> <1223923410.3327.37.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223924537.16857.57.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1223925947.3327.39.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 15:02 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > Unfortunately artistic opinions differ wildly. Every single person that > > has made a comment to me regarding the icon set has made it a negative > > comment. Those that like it maybe just choose not to say anything. > > > > the beta review here: > http://libregeek.blogspot.com/2008/10/quick-glance-at-fedora-10-beta.html > > said: > "As soon as I logged in, the first major change I noticed is the new > Echo-Icon theme. The icon set is great and gave the desktop an elegant > look and feel." Right, I don't doubt/deny that there are opinions out there that the artwork is great. I should have said "Those that like it maybe just choice not to say anything to me." which would contrast with those that did not like it who have decided to say something to me. It's anecdotal evidence from me at best. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 13 20:07:06 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:37:06 +0530 Subject: NetworkManager-gnome dependencies Message-ID: <48F3AA6A.0@fedoraproject.org> Hi Can someone please look into https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=427834 I have filed this a while back with no response. It would be helpful. Rahul From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Oct 13 22:06:21 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:06:21 -0700 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1223924509.2874.71.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> <1223923143.3327.36.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223924509.2874.71.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1223935581.3056.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 19:01 +0000, Martin Sourada wrote: > Well, gnome and kde already look different on that level. Does that > confuse greater community? Not when (default) Gnome icons on Fedora look like (default) Gnome icons on Debian and on SuSE. Same with (default) KDE icons on Fedora and such. > Echo is *just another* icon set that is > coincidentally developed by some members of the Art Team who'd like to > see it as a default icon theme Fedora wide (as opposed to gnome wide or > kde wide) when ready for that. But what problem does it solve? What doesn't the upstream provide in this case, that we are spending effort to "invent here" rather than contribute upstream? > Does it bring anything to the wider upstream community? I hope that in > the long run it will ease icon themes creation process for others as > well (e.g. with helping with replacing unthemable icons by themable > ones). Also I hope it will emerge into cross desktop icon theme used by > much wider audience than just Fedora users. Wasn't that already tried with bluecurve (and failed)? > > Does it bring anything to Fedora user? Different, more lively, more > 3D-like art. Perhaps wider coverage of Fedora specific stuff (but that > does not need to be limited to Echo). Is that a good thing? Seriously, > who is to decide that? Definitely not me. I believe Art and Desktop > Teams (and various other desktop SIGs when Echo gets selected for other > DE's than gnome) together have the right to do so. > > If not, we'll continue to be just another alternative icon theme, > developed by some of the fedora artists ;-) I'm just trying to get a handle on what the problem is that echo is trying to solve. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 23:20:10 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:20:10 +0000 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1223935581.3056.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> <1223923143.3327.36.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223924509.2874.71.camel@pc-notebook> <1223935581.3056.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223940010.2874.85.camel@pc-notebook> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 15:06 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 19:01 +0000, Martin Sourada wrote: > > Well, gnome and kde already look different on that level. Does that > > confuse greater community? > > Not when (default) Gnome icons on Fedora look like (default) Gnome icons > on Debian and on SuSE. Same with (default) KDE icons on Fedora and > such. > Well, try running some KDE applications on Gnome or the other way round. It will never be perfect, but we can at least have one icons set for both (I am not implying it must be Echo). > > Echo is *just another* icon set that is > > coincidentally developed by some members of the Art Team who'd like to > > see it as a default icon theme Fedora wide (as opposed to gnome wide or > > kde wide) when ready for that. > > But what problem does it solve? What doesn't the upstream provide in > this case, that we are spending effort to "invent here" rather than > contribute upstream? > Well, practically we aren't inventing anything. Just creating an icon theme set that uses different design from the upstream defaults. The problem we are trying to address in echo specifically (i.e. it has nothing to do with other icon sets) is coverage of both gnome and kde. > Wasn't that already tried with bluecurve (and failed)? > Technically speaking Echo is modern-looking bluecurve successor. I think bluecurve failed because it was outdated and failed to "keep up with the era". > I'm just trying to get a handle on what the problem is that echo is > trying to solve. > I don't think that's the right question in case of art. Art is basically about doing something new, or improving something old, simply said. With Echo we are doing both - posing ourselves as bluecurve successor, using same metaphors as gnome or oxygen as much as possible (to not confuse user), but developing our own style. We are trying to make it default in Fedora, for one because we think it would improve Fedora looks, second we think users might profit from consistent icon set throughout whole distro (not in Fedora 10 yet, since KDE isn't covered enough), third it is developed by people in Fedora Art Team and fourth, with every new release of Fedora there are questions why Echo is still not default, usually accompanied by "prediction" that it will always stay in the "next time" state ;-) Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Oct 13 23:53:40 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:53:40 -0700 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1223940010.2874.85.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> <1223923143.3327.36.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223924509.2874.71.camel@pc-notebook> <1223935581.3056.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223940010.2874.85.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1223942020.3056.14.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 23:20 +0000, Martin Sourada wrote: > I don't think that's the right question in case of art. Art is basically > about doing something new, or improving something old, simply said. With > Echo we are doing both - posing ourselves as bluecurve successor, using > same metaphors as gnome or oxygen as much as possible (to not confuse > user), but developing our own style. We are trying to make it default in > Fedora, for one because we think it would improve Fedora looks, second > we think users might profit from consistent icon set throughout whole > distro (not in Fedora 10 yet, since KDE isn't covered enough), Up until this point you had a pretty good answer to the question. > third it > is developed by people in Fedora Art Team and fourth, with every new > release of Fedora there are questions why Echo is still not default, > usually accompanied by "prediction" that it will always stay in the > "next time" state ;-) Those feel like "Because I did it", or "because we can" answers, not really answers to the question. But with the first set you actually have a fairly good argument. How the work you did can interact with upstreams as well as accomplishing your goal is the interesting part. This is what Fedora is really about. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Oct 14 00:25:52 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:25:52 -0700 Subject: More live attempts Message-ID: <1223943952.3056.16.camel@luminos.localdomain> We're looking great on size! http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/development-live/Live/i686/ -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 14 00:32:40 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 06:02:40 +0530 Subject: More live attempts In-Reply-To: <1223943952.3056.16.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223943952.3056.16.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <48F3E8A8.8030001@fedoraproject.org> Jesse Keating wrote: > We're looking great on size! > > http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/development-live/Live/i686/ What about x86_64? Rahul From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Oct 14 00:37:43 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:37:43 -0700 Subject: More live attempts In-Reply-To: <48F3E8A8.8030001@fedoraproject.org> References: <1223943952.3056.16.camel@luminos.localdomain> <48F3E8A8.8030001@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1223944663.3056.17.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 06:02 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > What about x86_64? Since I'm still doing these by hand it didn't get done yet. I'll try to cobble together a scripted set tomorrow. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Oct 14 06:59:41 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:59:41 +0300 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1223935581.3056.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> <1223923143.3327.36.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223924509.2874.71.camel@pc-notebook> <1223935581.3056.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <48F4435D.4000208@nicubunu.ro> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 19:01 +0000, Martin Sourada wrote: > >> Does it bring anything to the wider upstream community? I hope that in >> the long run it will ease icon themes creation process for others as >> well (e.g. with helping with replacing unthemable icons by themable >> ones). Also I hope it will emerge into cross desktop icon theme used by >> much wider audience than just Fedora users. > > Wasn't that already tried with bluecurve (and failed)? Nope, Bluecurve failed for exactly two reasons: - it was not really Open Source: the license was Free but the file format not (Adobe Illustrator), impossible to open with any FOSS application; - it was a one-man project, without a community, written guidelines or source and when that one person left Red Hat, the project slowly died. Apples versus oranges. But a few years later, Tango tried (and I think still tries) to do the same thing as Bluecurve: a cross desktop icon theme (we can argue about its success and why). -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From gnomeuser at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 08:43:40 2008 From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:43:40 +0200 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <48F4435D.4000208@nicubunu.ro> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> <1223923143.3327.36.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223924509.2874.71.camel@pc-notebook> <1223935581.3056.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> <48F4435D.4000208@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0810140143j113c69f1t713583f4dd267590@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/14 Nicu Buculei > Jesse Keating wrote: > >> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 19:01 +0000, Martin Sourada wrote: >> >> Does it bring anything to the wider upstream community? I hope that in >>> the long run it will ease icon themes creation process for others as >>> well (e.g. with helping with replacing unthemable icons by themable >>> ones). Also I hope it will emerge into cross desktop icon theme used by >>> much wider audience than just Fedora users. >>> >> >> Wasn't that already tried with bluecurve (and failed)? >> > Bluecurve failed to define naming standards, failed to get upstream adption. Looking at the project that for icons actually made this happen, Tango we now have the required standards, many upstreams such as gimp have adopted it. I would say Bluecurve was a failure primarily for technical reasons, it tried to create a solution without getting buyin. As an art project Bluecurve actually did quite well in moving the desktop ahead at the time, and without it we wouldn't have the standards today that we do, they rose from it's ashes. Even KDE4' Oxygen icons, having never myself actually played with them, are said to be designed to blend with the Tango icons. They use the naming standard, but that aside a KDE app will never blend 100% with a GNOME environment and vice virsa, there are different design ideals but we are getting better through standardization. - David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 14 13:51:54 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:51:54 -0400 Subject: More live attempts In-Reply-To: <1223943952.3056.16.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223943952.3056.16.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1223992314.3499.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 17:25 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > We're looking great on size! > > http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/development-live/Live/i686/ > We should probably try to get yelp back in, if there is enough space. Otherwise all the help content we ship is kinda useless, and we also loose the "About Fedora" menuitem without it. From dcbw at redhat.com Tue Oct 14 14:56:43 2008 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:56:43 -0400 Subject: NetworkManager-gnome dependencies In-Reply-To: <48F3AA6A.0@fedoraproject.org> References: <48F3AA6A.0@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1223996203.3936.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 01:37 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Can someone please look into > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=427834 > > I have filed this a while back with no response. It would be helpful. Will be fixed in the next rebuild. Dan From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Oct 14 16:08:14 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:08:14 -0700 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0810140143j113c69f1t713583f4dd267590@mail.gmail.com> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> <1223923143.3327.36.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223924509.2874.71.camel@pc-notebook> <1223935581.3056.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> <48F4435D.4000208@nicubunu.ro> <1dedbbfc0810140143j113c69f1t713583f4dd267590@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1224000494.1710.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 10:43 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: > Bluecurve failed to define naming standards, failed to get upstream adption. > Looking at the project that for icons actually made this happen, Tango we > now have the required standards, many upstreams such as gimp have adopted > it. I would say Bluecurve was a failure primarily for technical reasons, it > tried to create a solution without getting buyin. As an art project > Bluecurve actually did quite well in moving the desktop ahead at the time, > and without it we wouldn't have the standards today that we do, they rose > from it's ashes. Fair enough. So why isn't Fedora Artwork's efforts being focused in improving/fixing what they think is "wrong" with tango? -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From notting at redhat.com Tue Oct 14 16:54:33 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:54:33 -0400 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > Consider what happened if we started voting on what patches should go in > tarballs? Or what the dialogs in your desktop looked like? Or what > options to use by default. Or what IO scheduler to use in the kernel. Obviously, that's silly. The default response to any disagreement shouldn't be 'let's put it up for a vote!' If we can't solve conflicts in a better manner, we have bigger problems. > The fact that you are proposing a vote only shows there's a tremendous > problem in Fedora. You guys hanging out on fedora-art-list that is > interested in the visual of the desktop _really_ _really_ need to grow > up and work with upstream projects instead of sitting in your own little > Fedora cube disconnected from the rest of the world. With your stupid > voting system. There's no need to toss around 'grow up' and 'stupid'; we're all adults (or close enough) here, and that's unlikely to bring people around to your point of view. I think there's two main points: - Icons are different than most of the other 'value add' that our groups do. For documentation, there isn't really any universal sort of upstream documentation that encompassess the entire distro, or installation, etc. So, our Docs group writes it, to give us a unified, consistent, piece of documentation. There's not really an upstream to push it to, so it remains Fedora-specific. For splash screens, etc., there (obvioulsy) isn't a central upstream location for Fedora-specific images. So our Art team does that. There's not really an upstream to push it to, so it remains Fedora-specific. (Non-branded backgrounds probably should be pushed to an upstream desktop-backgrounds module.) However, for icons, there already are upstream collections of icons for GNOME, and apps at large. They're fairly unified, and people who want changes should work with that upstream. A wholesale change to push a new style upstream probably wouldn't fly, so anything of that sort would have to remain a fork, or separate, forever. Question: So, why are we, as a project, interested in working on a large set of never-to-be-upstreamed changes when there is an existing upstream? - However, there's a precedent here. In Fedora, we ship as default, the Nodoka GTK+ and Metacity themes. This is a separate project, hosted on Fedora hosted, etc. There is, already, upstream GTK+ themese. And (unless I missed something), it hasn't generated near the amount of controversy. Question: Why is Nodoka 'ok', and Echo not, in people's opinion? In any case, I doubt David speaks for the entirety of the Desktop SIG as to their opinions of Echo. (Nor, do I suspect, does Martin speak for the entirety of Fedora Art.) Given that things like Nodoka are more or less OK by the consensus of both the Art team at large, and the Desktop team at large... is there a reason both teams can't come to a consensus about what to do with Echo? (FWIW, when I voted on this at FESCo, I assumed that this consensus was already there. My mistake.) Bill From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 14 16:34:33 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:34:33 -0400 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1224000494.1710.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> <1223923143.3327.36.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223924509.2874.71.camel@pc-notebook> <1223935581.3056.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> <48F4435D.4000208@nicubunu.ro> <1dedbbfc0810140143j113c69f1t713583f4dd267590@mail.gmail.com> <1224000494.1710.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1224002073.16857.131.camel@rosebud> On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 09:08 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 10:43 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: > > Bluecurve failed to define naming standards, failed to get upstream adption. > > Looking at the project that for icons actually made this happen, Tango we > > now have the required standards, many upstreams such as gimp have adopted > > it. I would say Bluecurve was a failure primarily for technical reasons, it > > tried to create a solution without getting buyin. As an art project > > Bluecurve actually did quite well in moving the desktop ahead at the time, > > and without it we wouldn't have the standards today that we do, they rose > > from it's ashes. > > Fair enough. So why isn't Fedora Artwork's efforts being focused in > improving/fixing what they think is "wrong" with tango? > maybe b/c touching up art is harder than patching code? -sv From caillon at redhat.com Tue Oct 14 17:37:27 2008 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:37:27 -0400 Subject: Desktop team meetings? In-Reply-To: <48D82635.6040705@fedoraproject.org> References: <48D73DFE.20401@fedoraproject.org> <1222107626.3848.5.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <48D82635.6040705@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48F4D8D7.6060705@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Is the desktop team meeting on a weekly basis like it used to? Even better. We now have team meetings 5 days a week (Monday - Friday, with some exceptions for holidays) from 10am to midnight, US Eastern time. Like all meetings, sometimes we adjourn early, and sometimes we run late. > Given that Fedora desktop specific discussions do get taken and not much > of it in this list, the benefit of having a designated time for meeting > on irc and discussing plans is to allow people to participate more. Even > if you do have to hang around on a IRC channel all day, you wouldn't be > able to follow the discussions there 24/7. Even if we do have a time, we are going to cut out a lot of people who are sleeping during the 1 hour period, or are at work and are unable to get on IRC. This was the case when we had our weekly meetings: we were always getting complaints from people who wished to participate but could not make our meeting times, no matter when we scheduled it. We feel the longer and more frequent meeting time allows more people to join in. Still, if there are people who are unable to make it to our meetings, we invite them to use our mailing list. From wwoods at redhat.com Tue Oct 14 18:33:46 2008 From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:33:46 -0400 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1224009226.14868.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 12:54 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > - However, there's a precedent here. In Fedora, we ship as default, > the Nodoka GTK+ and Metacity themes. This is a separate project, > hosted on Fedora hosted, etc. There is, already, upstream GTK+ > themese. And (unless I missed something), it hasn't generated near > the amount of controversy. > > Question: > Why is Nodoka 'ok', and Echo not, in people's opinion? The obvious responses: First, Nodoka doesn't drastically change UI elements from their upstream defaults, or from other OSes. It's all immediately recognizable, but still unique. (The one real difference from upstream GNOME is the icon for the Maximize window button, which is similar to another prominent OS). Second, its scope is a lot smaller - there's a lot less artwork involved in Nodoka. So it's a lot easier to have the entire thing be internally consistent. There aren't differing gradients or color schemes in different places, for example. Finally, Nodoka theming is applied consistently to all UI elements in GTK+ apps. There's no question of "coverage". Echo, on the other hand, significantly changes the look of basic UI elements - the "save" icon, for example, is unrecognizable compared to the upstream version or other OSes. Further, it's not consistent. Icons change shape and perspective depending on size. Drop shadows vary in strength and size - sometimes they aren't used at all. Some things have strong borders, some don't. Honestly it's a bit of a mess. > Question: > So, why are we, as a project, interested in working on a large set > of never-to-be-upstreamed changes when there is an existing upstream? I don't have any problem with people wanting to maintain and improve a cool-looking set of icons. But I really don't think it's a good idea to make them the default Fedora icon set. The stated goal - having a consistent icon set between GNOME and KDE - hasn't been met. And Echo changes the icons for all your apps and all the toolbars in those apps, which is confusing to everyone coming from another OS, or another Linux distribution, or even an older version of Fedora. I appreciate cool themes as much as the next guy, and I definitely think Echo should be packaged, used in themes, and shown off to the world. But making it the default seems like a UI disaster. -w (who tried to get his user-interface-designer wife to help work on Nodoka and received most of the critiques above) From martin.sourada at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 19:42:34 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:42:34 +0000 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1224000494.1710.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1223921089.2874.53.camel@pc-notebook> <1223923143.3327.36.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1223924509.2874.71.camel@pc-notebook> <1223935581.3056.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> <48F4435D.4000208@nicubunu.ro> <1dedbbfc0810140143j113c69f1t713583f4dd267590@mail.gmail.com> <1224000494.1710.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1224013354.2874.125.camel@pc-notebook> On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 09:08 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > Fair enough. So why isn't Fedora Artwork's efforts being focused in > improving/fixing what they think is "wrong" with tango? > Maybe because there is nothing wrong with tango? It's not about fixing something, it's about creating art we like and have some goals along the way, which are mostly same as Tango's. As seth said, there is a difference between patching a code and working on artwork which looks different then your ideas are. And just to prevent the question, no I don't want to change either Gnome or Tango or Oxygen icon sets to have different looks from what they have now, but I don't have an interest in working on that looks myself either. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 20:05:07 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:05:07 +0000 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1224009226.14868.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1224009226.14868.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1224014707.2874.154.camel@pc-notebook> On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 14:33 -0400, Will Woods wrote: > > Question: > > Why is Nodoka 'ok', and Echo not, in people's opinion? > > The obvious responses: First, Nodoka doesn't drastically change UI > elements from their upstream defaults, or from other OSes. It's all > immediately recognizable, but still unique. (The one real difference > from upstream GNOME is the icon for the Maximize window button, which is > similar to another prominent OS). > Agreed. > Second, its scope is a lot smaller - there's a lot less artwork involved > in Nodoka. So it's a lot easier to have the entire thing be internally > consistent. There aren't differing gradients or color schemes in > different places, for example. > Agreed. > Finally, Nodoka theming is applied consistently to all UI elements in > GTK+ apps. There's no question of "coverage". > Yeah. While in gtk-engine/theme we can cover almost anything with not-so-much of work, in icon theme it's a tremendous work and a one that will never ends. > Echo, on the other hand, significantly changes the look of basic UI > elements - the "save" icon, for example, is unrecognizable compared to > the upstream version or other OSes. > Err... we actually changed it on request since floppy's are outdated HDD represents it better (and gnome icon themes uses HDD as well there), unfortunately it was done in a time we weren't that much organised as we are now and some details slipped our attention at that time. > Further, it's not consistent. Icons change shape and perspective > depending on size. Drop shadows vary in strength and size - sometimes > they aren't used at all. Some things have strong borders, some don't. > Some of it is true, some of it not. Shadows are missing only in the SVGs that were done by Diana and exported in photoshop and we are continually fixing that. Yeah, drop shadows vary especially between the "old set" and "new set". We are consistent (hopefully) with new icons. And for the perspective. Well, we get that complaint a lot. Let me clarify what it's about in Echo. We have basically three different types of perspectives (or they should be strictly speaking called projections), which I believe is not the best way of things, but considering the amount of icons already created, changing that would basically mean to start all over again. So we at least try to be consistent with what projections is used for what - and that's based on icon context and icon size. The isometric one works good down to 22x22 so it's used for all the sizes from 22x22 and bigger. On the table works on 32x32 and bigger and so it's used there. The rest is left for plain 2D. Action icons are differentiated from other by having the "other" perspective while the rest is consistent. Ideally you'd have tool bars filled with icons using only one perspective (the one for actions icons, though in that size plain 2D), but icons from other contexts are often "misused" there. In 16x16 all icons are 100% consistent in that matter (as long as they are created) - all have the same perspective - in bigger sizes there should never be more than two different perspectives used at the same size. Difference between different icon sizes does not justify keeping the same perspective, even upstream does not that, though they usually use only two types of perspectives - classic perspective (IIRC they call it on the table) and flat (IIRC they call it on the shelf). > Honestly it's a bit of a mess. > A little bit... > I don't have any problem with people wanting to maintain and improve a > cool-looking set of icons. But I really don't think it's a good idea to > make them the default Fedora icon set. > Luya proposed it as a future and I, as the main echo developer, joined the efforts. I don't want to decide either way by myself though, that's why I am bringing it up for consideration. I am perfectly fine if the audience chose to not have it the default in Fedora and I would not force it. > The stated goal - having a consistent icon set between GNOME and KDE - > hasn't been met. And Echo changes the icons for all your apps and all > the toolbars in those apps, which is confusing to everyone coming from > another OS, or another Linux distribution, or even an older version of > Fedora. > The goal hasn't been met *yet*. But we'll get there in the future, after all it's our goal ;-) If you are coming from other OS, it will confuse you either way - be it Mac or Windows, they all have totally different icon sets from ours. If you come from KDE to GNOME you'll get confused - oxygen and gnome-icon-theme use the same perspectives (mostly) but pretty often the metaphors are different. If you come from another Linux distribution, you'd be surprised by echo, but having just different perspective does make it confusing for you, as long as the metaphors stay the same, which we try to achieve. > I appreciate cool themes as much as the next guy, and I definitely think > Echo should be packaged, used in themes, and shown off to the world. But > making it the default seems like a UI disaster. > As I stated, I don't want to be the one to decide that and I'd like Art and Desktop teams to decide. > -w > (who tried to get his user-interface-designer wife to help work on > Nodoka and received most of the critiques above) > I wonder, what critiques are you refering to? Save for the maximize button in nodoka metacity, I haven't read a single negative word about Nodoka in that mail - unless you mean that your wife commented on Echo while you tried to persuade her to help work on Nodoka... Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From wcohen at redhat.com Tue Oct 14 20:09:12 2008 From: wcohen at redhat.com (William Cohen) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:09:12 -0400 Subject: More live attempts In-Reply-To: <1223943952.3056.16.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1223943952.3056.16.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <48F4FC68.2080700@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > We're looking great on size! Something shrinking by more than 100%? > http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/development-live/Live/i686/ Shrinkage: selinux-policy-targeted shrank by 29428348 (1394.21%) (31539101->2110753) Is that more of a shrink of 93.3%, (old_size-new_size)/old_size? -Will From wwoods at redhat.com Tue Oct 14 20:53:57 2008 From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:53:57 -0400 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1224014707.2874.154.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1224009226.14868.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1224014707.2874.154.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1224017637.3158.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 20:05 +0000, Martin Sourada wrote: > -w > > (who tried to get his user-interface-designer wife to help work on > > Nodoka and received most of the critiques above) > > > I wonder, what critiques are you refering to? Save for the maximize > button in nodoka metacity, I haven't read a single negative word about > Nodoka in that mail - unless you mean that your wife commented on Echo > while you tried to persuade her to help work on Nodoka... Sorry! Too much typing, not enough coffee. I meant that I tried to get her to work on *Echo*. Most of the critiques of Echo were distilled from her response. > > Honestly it's a bit of a mess. > > > A little bit... It really is just a *little* bit. I think we'd all agree that making a completely new icon theme is a tremendous amount of work, and Echo really is an impressive achievement.. with a few minor problems. But. Those minor problems are spread all over, and it's going to take some time to work them out. I'd still like to see Echo shipped in F10 - perhaps we could ship with a couple Fedora themes: Fedora, Fedora-Echo, etc. But I don't feel good about making Echo the default just yet. -w From notting at redhat.com Wed Oct 15 14:49:52 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:49:52 -0400 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20081015144952.GA2452@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Bill Nottingham (notting at redhat.com) said: > For splash screens, etc., there (obvioulsy) isn't a central upstream > location for Fedora-specific images. So our Art team does that. There's > not really an upstream to push it to, so it remains Fedora-specific. > (Non-branded backgrounds probably should be pushed to an upstream > desktop-backgrounds module.) It did occur to me - there are sites like gnome-look.org, kde-look.org; is there a reason we aren't submitting the theme work (unbranded) we do there as well? Bill From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Oct 15 15:14:29 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:14:29 +0300 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <20081015144952.GA2452@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20081015144952.GA2452@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <48F608D5.7040407@nicubunu.ro> Bill Nottingham wrote: > > It did occur to me - there are sites like gnome-look.org, kde-look.org; > is there a reason we aren't submitting the theme work (unbranded) we do > there as well? There is no need for that, the theme is already included in other distros like Gentoo. It seems like somebody (a 3-rd party?) submitted it also to gnome-look (which is just another font-end to kde-look): http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=49955 but maintenance there is a pain in the ass, you have to manually keep it in sync with our git. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From notting at redhat.com Wed Oct 15 15:21:32 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:21:32 -0400 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <48F608D5.7040407@nicubunu.ro> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20081015144952.GA2452@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48F608D5.7040407@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <20081015152132.GI1773@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Nicu Buculei (nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro) said: > Bill Nottingham wrote: >> >> It did occur to me - there are sites like gnome-look.org, kde-look.org; >> is there a reason we aren't submitting the theme work (unbranded) we do >> there as well? > > There is no need for that, the theme is already included in other > distros like Gentoo. > > It seems like somebody (a 3-rd party?) submitted it also to gnome-look > (which is just another font-end to kde-look): > http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=49955 but maintenance > there is a pain in the ass, you have to manually keep it in sync with > our git. Not just Echo - I mean Nodoka, Solar, Gears, etc. Bill From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Oct 15 15:43:01 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:43:01 +0300 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <20081015152132.GI1773@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20081015144952.GA2452@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48F608D5.7040407@nicubunu.ro> <20081015152132.GI1773@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <48F60F85.8060405@nicubunu.ro> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Nicu Buculei (nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro) said: >> Bill Nottingham wrote: >>> It did occur to me - there are sites like gnome-look.org, kde-look.org; >>> is there a reason we aren't submitting the theme work (unbranded) we do >>> there as well? >> There is no need for that, the theme is already included in other >> distros like Gentoo. >> >> It seems like somebody (a 3-rd party?) submitted it also to gnome-look >> (which is just another font-end to kde-look): >> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=49955 but maintenance >> there is a pain in the ass, you have to manually keep it in sync with >> our git. > > Not just Echo - I mean Nodoka, Solar, Gears, etc. Nodoka is included in even more distros and a desktop theme (like Solar) is too volatile and with little use beyond Fedora - other distros can use the wallpaper, but they have little use of Anaconda splashes and such (note that we keep the branding low on those images so they *can* be used by other distros) . -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From notting at redhat.com Wed Oct 15 15:46:35 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:46:35 -0400 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <48F60F85.8060405@nicubunu.ro> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20081015144952.GA2452@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48F608D5.7040407@nicubunu.ro> <20081015152132.GI1773@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48F60F85.8060405@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <20081015154635.GA4232@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Nicu Buculei (nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro) said: > Nodoka is included in even more distros and a desktop theme (like Solar) > is too volatile and with little use beyond Fedora - other distros can > use the wallpaper, but they have little use of Anaconda splashes and > such (note that we keep the branding low on those images so they *can* > be used by other distros) . At least two other distros use anaconda, most other distros use grub, and obviously KDE and GNOME (which we theme the splashes for, even if we don't necessarily display them) are pretty universal, not to mention GDM/KDM. Bill From kagesenshi.87 at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 16:42:18 2008 From: kagesenshi.87 at gmail.com (Izhar Firdaus) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:42:18 +0800 Subject: Regarding Compiz Fusion In-Reply-To: <20081012063312.GA23998@victor.nirvana> References: <20081012063312.GA23998@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: 2008/10/12 Axel Thimm : > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 10:44:22AM +0530, Shambo Bose wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I think if possible Compiz Fusion with Emerald theme manager should be added they are in fedora repositories .. search for compiz-fusion-* >> to the fedora repository and it should be made available out of the box for >> a better desktop user experience. for enabling it by default, yup, like Axel mentioned, theres some problem with driver, but do also note that theres another problem which is Compiz Fusion won't work properly with the compiz setup in Fedora (which is to use the gconf plugin instead of the ccp plugin). I've asked several times to compiz-fusion developers, and the latest answer i got is that they will never be supporting it. So, in current setup, only core compiz can be run by default .. for compiz-fusion, it won't work properly unless started using compiz-manager or fusion-icon or executed manually using "compiz ccp" command (all of which IMHO, is quite hackish) >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> regards, >> >> Shambo Bose > > I'd also love compiz enabled as default, but currently the intel > driver will fail with opengl apps within compiz until DRI2 gets > released. > -- > Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail Amano Hikaru ??? ???? ???? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MohdIzharFirdaus http://blog.kagesenshi.org 92C2 B295 B40B B3DC 6866 5011 5BD2 584A 8A5D 7331 From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 18:26:25 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:26:25 +0200 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <20081015144952.GA2452@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20081015144952.GA2452@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1224095185.2820.13.camel@pc-notebook> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 10:49 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Bill Nottingham (notting at redhat.com) said: > > For splash screens, etc., there (obvioulsy) isn't a central upstream > > location for Fedora-specific images. So our Art team does that. There's > > not really an upstream to push it to, so it remains Fedora-specific. > > (Non-branded backgrounds probably should be pushed to an upstream > > desktop-backgrounds module.) > > It did occur to me - there are sites like gnome-look.org, kde-look.org; > is there a reason we aren't submitting the theme work (unbranded) we do > there as well? > Much of a hassle, I'd guess (you need to register, the upload is somewhat suboptimal, at least for me). Nodoka is there though [1] ;-) And I'll probably add Echo there as well. Echo has already been submitted to art.gnome.org [2]. > Bill > Martin References: [1] http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Nodoka+GTK2 +Engine?content=75061 [2] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/ticket/41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 18:38:17 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:38:17 +0200 Subject: Voting considered harmful (Was: Re: Echo Icon Theme in F10?) In-Reply-To: <1224095185.2820.13.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <1223919370.16461.65.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081014165433.GB22380@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20081015144952.GA2452@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1224095185.2820.13.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1224095897.2820.14.camel@pc-notebook> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 20:26 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 10:49 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Bill Nottingham (notting at redhat.com) said: > > > For splash screens, etc., there (obvioulsy) isn't a central upstream > > > location for Fedora-specific images. So our Art team does that. There's > > > not really an upstream to push it to, so it remains Fedora-specific. > > > (Non-branded backgrounds probably should be pushed to an upstream > > > desktop-backgrounds module.) > > > > It did occur to me - there are sites like gnome-look.org, kde-look.org; > > is there a reason we aren't submitting the theme work (unbranded) we do > > there as well? > > > Much of a hassle, I'd guess (you need to register, the upload is > somewhat suboptimal, at least for me). Nodoka is there though [1] ;-) > And I'll probably add Echo there as well. Echo has already been > submitted to art.gnome.org [2]. > OK, echo is now on gnome-look.org as well ;-) http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=91312 Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 19:07:09 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:07:09 +0200 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> First of all, thanks for the review, it pretty much outlines the issues I feel uneasy about as well. First, most of these issues are caused by SVG icon being scaled down (sometimes for a reason unknown to me and sometimes because of missing appropriate size variant). So I skip these, because we need to just finish other size and adjust them a little to keep them in sync with other icons. I seriously doubt we'll fix those in time for F10. Now, for the rest. The delete icon - yes, it looks different and I proposed we change it to something other. The discussion was postponed for after F10 release. The close icon on tabs - yes, it is chopped off and I don't understand why. It has correct size and the icon itself isn't chopped off, but in *some* applications it looks this way :-/ The door icon - the doors are slightly opened, perhaps too little, and behind there is a black space. The two pixel width outline is because both door and the door-hole has it's own outline. I agree, it might need improvement. System->Administration - yep, it probably needs rework to better fit with the style. Shut Down - dunno if you remember, but at the time it was being created there were a lot of submission and for some reason we chose this on. But even after a half a year (IIRC) of seeing it everyday it looks a bit weird me. Network - yep, an old style one. We need to use the new styled monitors for these... Palm - agreed Volume - I accepted it back when we were creating it, but it seems to me it actually uses different perspective from other icons... Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice = pain, while firefox being the best... Basically the toolbar icons are pretty much themable in firefox, thunderbird needs theme, openoffice needs theme. Not a decent citizens. Seeing that our mail client of choice is Evolution though, which works good with Echo, I'd guess Thuderbird hasn't the highest priority (and it does not even fit with the F9 default icon theme). For openoffice we would probably need to symlink/copy the echo icons into echo icon theme for openoffice... I don't know, how they handle it. I'd very much like to hear Luya's opinion, but I don't feel like supporting Echo for F10 as default much longer... Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 20:56:32 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:56:32 -0800 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <604aa7910810151356s43c0ddadi366191973c711bc7@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/15 Martin Sourada : > First of all, thanks for the review, it pretty much outlines the issues > I feel uneasy about as well. First, most of these issues are caused by > SVG icon being scaled down (sometimes for a reason unknown to me and > sometimes because of missing appropriate size variant). Technical question, is this a result of a general limitation in the available svg rendering stack? I ask because was playing around with the python bindings for cairo and librsvg in another context and I was having trouble with scaling and rendering of some simple svg data. But I fully submit my problems could just be my own poor understanding of how to make it work. -jef From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 21:14:27 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:14:27 +0200 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910810151356s43c0ddadi366191973c711bc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151356s43c0ddadi366191973c711bc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1224105268.2820.98.camel@pc-notebook> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 12:56 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Technical question, is this a result of a general limitation in the > available svg rendering stack? I ask because was playing around with > the python bindings for cairo and librsvg in another context and I was > having trouble with scaling and rendering of some simple svg data. > But I fully submit my problems could just be my own poor understanding > of how to make it work. > Partly yes. Not sure how exactly it is rendered with librsvg, but there are some differences to how inkscape renders it (especially with various filters like blur or mask applied), but some of it are just a problem of scaling down something that isn't optimised for the size you downscale it to (upscaling works better). > -jef > Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 15 21:27:57 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:27:57 -0400 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <48F6605D.5070106@fedoraproject.org> Martin Sourada wrote: > I'd very much like to hear Luya's opinion, but I don't feel like > supporting Echo for F10 as default much longer... It's amazing how much more calm, easy, and productive discussions like this are when the folks involved are level-headed and treat each other with respect. Thanks, Martin! ~m From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 22:44:22 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:44:22 -0800 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <1224105268.2820.98.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151356s43c0ddadi366191973c711bc7@mail.gmail.com> <1224105268.2820.98.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <604aa7910810151544i4b748411ibf5059f55da109ae@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/15 Martin Sourada : > Partly yes. Not sure how exactly it is rendered with librsvg, but there > are some differences to how inkscape renders it (especially with various > filters like blur or mask applied), My limited understanding is that we have several different svg interpreter codebases and the inkscape and nautilus don't share a common library in that regard. I believe that nautilus and other gnome apps like eog are ultimately using librsvg via a the gdk pixbuf loader (svg_loader.so). But I don't think inkscape makes use of librsvg at all. Does firefox also have its own svg rendering implementation? What does KDE end up using to read svg files? -jef From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 23:02:50 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:02:50 +0200 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910810151544i4b748411ibf5059f55da109ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151356s43c0ddadi366191973c711bc7@mail.gmail.com> <1224105268.2820.98.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151544i4b748411ibf5059f55da109ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1224111770.2820.100.camel@pc-notebook> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 14:44 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Does firefox also have its own svg rendering implementation? > AFAIK yes and so does WebKit (probably all its ports). > What does KDE end up using to read svg files? > I don't know answer to that one... > -jef > Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 00:21:39 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:21:39 -0800 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <1224111770.2820.100.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151356s43c0ddadi366191973c711bc7@mail.gmail.com> <1224105268.2820.98.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151544i4b748411ibf5059f55da109ae@mail.gmail.com> <1224111770.2820.100.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <604aa7910810151721hf738618waab39d49bdb6a82c@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/15 Martin Sourada : > AFAIK yes and so does WebKit (probably all its ports). I wonder.... if we looked at these svg based icons at the same scale/resolution using different underlying renderers, would we end up seeing different problems? Can we even do that sort of rendering test? I wouldn't really know how to force WebKit's or inkscape's render to render to the same scale that is being done by the gtk icon codepath to make a side by side comparison possible. -jef From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Oct 16 12:22:02 2008 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:22:02 -0500 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151356s43c0ddadi366191973c711bc7@mail.gmail.com> <1224105268.2820.98.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151544i4b748411ibf5059f55da109ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jeff Spaleta wrote: > What does KDE end up using to read svg files? KDE's current support for svg is limited to svg-basic (or something like that), which means... not very good... yet. Work is ongoing to leverage qt4/WebKit to improve this, but afaik, there's no eta for that turning into anything useful. -- Rex From notting at redhat.com Thu Oct 16 14:40:23 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:40:23 -0400 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081016144023.GD5834@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> M?ir?n Duffy (duffy at fedoraproject.org) said: > An isometric perspective is used for the > panel-size icons which will make it nearly impossible to fit > in with the many upstream application icons that tend to > follow the gnome-icon-theme and tango guidelines by default > these days. I think some tough decisions are going to be > have to made about echo's perspective and how it affects its > fitting in with other icon sets, which is going to be > inevitable. Regarding this, we also have bluecurve icons still which are also an isometric perspective, but a different one from Echo. For Echo replacing these seems to be a ToDo later item (https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/ToDo/GnomeMenus); if we stick with Mist, do we intend to fix these there? Currently, the bluecurve icons that people see are: - the OpenOffice app start icons - Desktop Effects - the anaconda pixmaps/icons Bill From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 17:30:33 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:30:33 -0800 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151356s43c0ddadi366191973c711bc7@mail.gmail.com> <1224105268.2820.98.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151544i4b748411ibf5059f55da109ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910810161030w9266994if2dbe7f980d838da@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 4:22 AM, Rex Dieter wrote: > Work is ongoing to leverage qt4/WebKit to improve this, but afaik, > there's no eta for that turning into anything useful. I'll have to look at WebKit a little on my own I guess..since it seems to be the current buzzword. My general and woefully uninformed feeling however is that, right now, we have a problem with the sophistication of our svg renders as exposed in desktop application frameworks and that's causing some non-trivial problems for graphical element development. My understanding is that inkscape is using its own internal svg rendering codebase, which isn't exported as a library for other applications to make use of more directly. So we end up doing reasonably good artist svg work in this fabulous svg oriented application..but when we go to render the svg's later via rsvg, we don't get the results we expect. I'm guessing the KDE svg-basic thingie has similar problems. Until the golden-age of WebKit supremacy arrives to save us, I'd love to be able to access inkscape's svg rendering into gtk directly as an alternative to librsvg, to do side by side comparisons, but I have no idea what that would take. If wishes were fishes, I'd be running my own fish oil dietary supplement factory. -jef From duffy at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 16 17:40:47 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:40:47 -0400 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910810161030w9266994if2dbe7f980d838da@mail.gmail.com> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151356s43c0ddadi366191973c711bc7@mail.gmail.com> <1224105268.2820.98.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151544i4b748411ibf5059f55da109ae@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910810161030w9266994if2dbe7f980d838da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F77C9F.6040009@fedoraproject.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > My understanding is that inkscape is using its own internal svg > rendering codebase, which isn't exported as a library for other > applications to make use of more directly. Inkscape uses Cairo AFAIK. > So we end up doing > reasonably good artist svg work in this fabulous svg oriented > application..but when we go to render the svg's later via rsvg, we > don't get the results we expect. I'm guessing the KDE svg-basic > thingie has similar problems. Are we actually using svg for the icons? I was under the impression the artists are exporting them to PNG to various sizes (under the standard icon themes in /usr/share/gnome/icons follow) so that they match the pixel grid. Even if the SVG renderer is perfect and flawless, it will never beat the artist hand-tweaking the artwork to render within the pixel grid per icon size. ~m From duffy at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 16 19:25:58 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:25:58 -0400 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <48F7914D.4000400@fedoraproject.org> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <20081016144023.GD5834@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48F7914D.4000400@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48F79546.7090205@fedoraproject.org> Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > Regarding icons using different perspective, it is much worse for any > theme especially when new applications do not have icons that follow > either guideline (Blender, KOffice, xsane, about-me, gFTP, etc.) . I'm not quite groking this sentence. But at least for what seems the majority of upstream GNOME apps these days, their icons are based on the gnome-icon-theme/tango standards which are flat or on the table perspectives. In the case of third party apps like blender, firefox, thunderbird, etc, the majority of these icons tend to again be a flat perspective. That an icon follows an isometric perspective also doesn't mean it will follow the same isometric perspective as Echo. Echo on my desktop faces away from me. Bluecurve is a bit friendlier because it faces towards me. The two together, while both isometric, do not match well at all wrt perspective. Again, I believe the isometric perspective, at least for the 22x22 and 24x24 icons of echo has proven to be a very poor choice in terms of cleanness/crispness, clarity, and alignment to the pixel grid, issues of integrating with other icons aside. ~m From caolanm at redhat.com Thu Oct 16 22:12:41 2008 From: caolanm at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Caol=E1n?= McNamara) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:12:41 +0100 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <48F79546.7090205@fedoraproject.org> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <20081016144023.GD5834@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48F7914D.4000400@fedoraproject.org> <48F79546.7090205@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1224195161.10624.317.camel@vain.rhgalway> On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 15:25 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > > Regarding icons using different perspective, it is much worse for any > > theme especially when new applications do not have icons that follow > > either guideline (Blender, KOffice, xsane, about-me, gFTP, etc.) . > > I'm not quite groking this sentence. But at least for what > seems the majority of upstream GNOME apps these days, their > icons are based on the gnome-icon-theme/tango standards > which are flat or on the table perspectives. > > In the case of third party apps like blender, firefox, > thunderbird, etc, the majority of these icons tend to again > be a flat perspective. FWIW when I look at my nautilus desktop (with a functional gsf-office-thumbnailer installed from libgsf which may not be the default experience) I end up with a mixture of isometric echo icons for files that cannot be previewed and flat preview icons of ones that can be, e.g. .pdf, .odt, etc. which is somewhat unfortunate. Though that may more long-term suggest a need for a way to (hand-wavingly) consistently propagate a transformation for such previews than an argument against isometric icons. C. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Oct 17 07:13:44 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:13:44 +0300 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <48F77C9F.6040009@fedoraproject.org> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151356s43c0ddadi366191973c711bc7@mail.gmail.com> <1224105268.2820.98.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151544i4b748411ibf5059f55da109ae@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910810161030w9266994if2dbe7f980d838da@mail.gmail.com> <48F77C9F.6040009@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48F83B28.3070003@nicubunu.ro> M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> My understanding is that inkscape is using its own internal svg >> rendering codebase, which isn't exported as a library for other >> applications to make use of more directly. > > Inkscape uses Cairo AFAIK. No, Inkscape uses Cario only in *some* places (outline view), the main rendering is made with its own engine. But while not perfect, these days Cario is quite good. > Are we actually using svg for the icons? I was under the > impression the artists are exporting them to PNG to various > sizes (under the standard icon themes in > /usr/share/gnome/icons follow) so that they match the pixel > grid. Correct. Also PNGs are used for performance reason, they load faster and with less CPU use. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 21:40:33 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:40:33 -0800 Subject: Echo Icon Theme in F10? In-Reply-To: <48F83B28.3070003@nicubunu.ro> References: <1223917421.2874.29.camel@pc-notebook> <48F6375F.8030903@fedoraproject.org> <1224097629.2820.33.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151356s43c0ddadi366191973c711bc7@mail.gmail.com> <1224105268.2820.98.camel@pc-notebook> <604aa7910810151544i4b748411ibf5059f55da109ae@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910810161030w9266994if2dbe7f980d838da@mail.gmail.com> <48F77C9F.6040009@fedoraproject.org> <48F83B28.3070003@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa7910810171440j7c10179fvebe20aa1ff65b09@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Nicu Buculei > No, Inkscape uses Cario only in *some* places (outline view), the main > rendering is made with its own engine. > But while not perfect, these days Cario is quite good. I'm still trying to understand the actual codepath used when an svg file is loaded. Cairo has its own dialetic for drawing to a screen. My understanding is that for most gnome apps, they end up parsing the svg file with librsvg which can translate into cairo-speak. And that translation into native Cairo instructions...might have some issues. -jef From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Sun Oct 19 19:03:16 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:03:16 +0300 Subject: Repositioning the gdm greeter window Message-ID: <20081019190316.GA28009@victor.nirvana> Hi, I've been less than successful in moving the greeter window, and I've tried a lot. I already spend half a day with changing the background :( It looks like I need some gtk+ themeing magic to do that, could someone please help out? Thanks! -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Sun Oct 19 19:08:16 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:08:16 +0300 Subject: gnome-wm and "compiz ... glib gconf" vs "compiz ... ccp" Message-ID: <20081019190816.GB28009@victor.nirvana> Hi, some of the compiz plugins will not work properly unless compiz is started with the ccp plugin instead of glib/gconf. The only clean way to do that is to replace compiz after gnome-wm has started with the pther parameters, but this delays the login and looks like it fires up /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/*.desktop twice. compiz-manager and fusion-icon also start compiz with ccp. Would it make sense to do so in gnome-wm to start with? I currenlty run a could of systems patched that way, but the next gnome-session update will nuke these changes, so I kindly ask to consdier fo upstream :) Thanks! -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Sun Oct 19 21:45:35 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 17:45:35 -0400 Subject: Repositioning the gdm greeter window In-Reply-To: <20081019190316.GA28009@victor.nirvana> References: <20081019190316.GA28009@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <1224452735.31862.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 22:03 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > Hi, > > I've been less than successful in moving the greeter window, and I've > tried a lot. I already spend half a day with changing the background > :( > > It looks like I need some gtk+ themeing magic to do that, could > someone please help out? Thanks! No, theming has no say on window positions. The question is kinda hard to answer without knowing how far you are willing to go... It is certainly possible to patch gdm to make the window appear somewhere else. As things currently stand, the greeter insists on centering it. You can use Alt+Left to move the window around at runtime (using the standard metacity shortcut), but thats not very persistent. It is also possible to replace metacity with a different wm in the login session, that lets you override window positions. From mclasen at redhat.com Sun Oct 19 21:46:25 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 17:46:25 -0400 Subject: gnome-wm and "compiz ... glib gconf" vs "compiz ... ccp" In-Reply-To: <20081019190816.GB28009@victor.nirvana> References: <20081019190816.GB28009@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <1224452785.31862.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 22:08 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > Hi, > > some of the compiz plugins will not work properly unless compiz is > started with the ccp plugin instead of glib/gconf. Sounds like those plugins are broken and need fixing ? From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Sun Oct 19 22:12:52 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 01:12:52 +0300 Subject: gnome-wm and "compiz ... glib gconf" vs "compiz ... ccp" In-Reply-To: <1224452785.31862.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081019190816.GB28009@victor.nirvana> <1224452785.31862.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081019221252.GA6078@victor.nirvana> Hi, On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 05:46:25PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 22:08 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > > some of the compiz plugins will not work properly unless compiz is > > started with the ccp plugin instead of glib/gconf. > > Sounds like those plugins are broken and need fixing ? Honestly I have no idea, other than seeing that people on the web as well as most compiz/fusion tools seem to suggest doing so. If it's a bug then compiz & compiz-fusion are obviouly aware about it, since they provide workaround in their tools (and with compiz & compiz-fusion I mean core devs & community). And if they provide two workarounds, then either the bug is currently too involved to be fixed in a timely manner or it is not a bug but intended behaviour. In either case it would be nice to have Fedora work properly out of the box. If it's a bug and does get fixed one day we can go back to glib/gconf instead of ccp. Is there any reason otherwise not to just patch gnome-wm to use ccp now? -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Sun Oct 19 22:15:20 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 01:15:20 +0300 Subject: Repositioning the gdm greeter window In-Reply-To: <1224452735.31862.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081019190316.GA28009@victor.nirvana> <1224452735.31862.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081019221520.GB6078@victor.nirvana> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 05:45:35PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 22:03 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I've been less than successful in moving the greeter window, and I've > > tried a lot. I already spend half a day with changing the background > > :( > > > > It looks like I need some gtk+ themeing magic to do that, could > > someone please help out? Thanks! > > No, theming has no say on window positions. The question is kinda hard > to answer without knowing how far you are willing to go... > > It is certainly possible to patch gdm to make the window appear > somewhere else. As things currently stand, the greeter insists on > centering it. > > You can use Alt+Left to move the window around at runtime (using the > standard metacity shortcut), but thats not very persistent. > > It is also possible to replace metacity with a different wm in the login > session, that lets you override window positions. gdm seems to support compiz instead of metacity. Would that give an configuration option for the position? I don't want to patch gdm, I was hoping it would be configurable like in past days. How do all these million themes manage to reposition it? -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Sun Oct 19 22:21:49 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 18:21:49 -0400 Subject: Repositioning the gdm greeter window In-Reply-To: <20081019221520.GB6078@victor.nirvana> References: <20081019190316.GA28009@victor.nirvana> <1224452735.31862.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20081019221520.GB6078@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <1224454909.31862.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 01:15 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > gdm seems to support compiz instead of metacity. Would that give an > configuration option for the position? I don't think so. > I don't want to patch gdm, I was hoping it would be configurable like > in past days. How do all these million themes manage to reposition it? Lets start over...why do you feel that you need to reposition the window in the first place ? From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Mon Oct 20 03:30:56 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 06:30:56 +0300 Subject: Repositioning the gdm greeter window In-Reply-To: <1224454909.31862.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081019190316.GA28009@victor.nirvana> <1224452735.31862.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20081019221520.GB6078@victor.nirvana> <1224454909.31862.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081020033056.GC6078@victor.nirvana> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 06:21:49PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 01:15 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > > > gdm seems to support compiz instead of metacity. Would that give an > > configuration option for the position? > > I don't think so. :( > > I don't want to patch gdm, I was hoping it would be configurable like > > in past days. How do all these million themes manage to reposition it? > > Lets start over...why do you feel that you need to reposition the window > in the first place ? Because I managed to replace the background with a picture of a building carrying the words "entrace" in greek and german, but now the words (e.g. the feature of the picture) are being hidden by the greeter. Thanks! -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 15:14:15 2008 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 08:14:15 -0700 Subject: gnome-wm and "compiz ... glib gconf" vs "compiz ... ccp" In-Reply-To: <20081019221252.GA6078@victor.nirvana> References: <20081019190816.GB28009@victor.nirvana> <1224452785.31862.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20081019221252.GA6078@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <48FCA047.6020805@gmail.com> Axel Thimm wrote: > Hi, > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 05:46:25PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 22:08 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: >>> some of the compiz plugins will not work properly unless compiz is >>> started with the ccp plugin instead of glib/gconf. >> Sounds like those plugins are broken and need fixing ? > > Honestly I have no idea, other than seeing that people on the web as > well as most compiz/fusion tools seem to suggest doing so. > > If it's a bug then compiz & compiz-fusion are obviouly aware about it, > since they provide workaround in their tools (and with compiz & > compiz-fusion I mean core devs & community). And if they provide two > workarounds, then either the bug is currently too involved to be fixed > in a timely manner or it is not a bug but intended behaviour. > > In either case it would be nice to have Fedora work properly out of > the box. If it's a bug and does get fixed one day we can go back to > glib/gconf instead of ccp. Is there any reason otherwise not to just > patch gnome-wm to use ccp now? > I think that user settings will get left behind each time you switch between configuration backends. That's a big negative. A bugzilla report against the affected plugins will get some people looking at whether it's a bug in the plugin or not. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 15:29:04 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:29:04 +0200 Subject: Echo Icon Theme Future Message-ID: <1224516544.2981.28.camel@pc-notebook> Hi, the last week's discussion about Echo was pretty fruitful I think and showed that the general opinion is to not include Echo in F10 as a default icon set. I take this as an opportunity to rethink the general goals of echo and "give some credit" to various critics. The main reason why *I* think not to have Echo in F10 as default is incomplete coverage of other-than-48x48-px sizes and shortcomings of the scalable icons that are supposed to fill the gap. We're slowly but steadily improving that and I think Echo should not be submitted for inclusion in Fedora as default icon set before this issue is resolved. Next there is a general coverage where we are already close to gnome upstream icon set. We will be improving that as well. I'd like to focus on (nearly) full coverage of Desktop Live Spin, KDE Live Spin and XFCE Live Spin (others as well, but I don't have them all in memory). So if you are missing echo styled icons in your favourite application that is included in one of those spins, feel free to file a bug [1]. It will not be handled instantly, but it helps us deciding what icons need to be done ;-) That also pretty much summarize our main goal, which is similar to what tango project has, to cover various desktops with one icon set. Finally I'd like to throw some fuel for discussion (mainly on the art-list). We are a lot criticized for inconsistencies in the projection we use in echo. Strictly speaking we are using 3 different types of projections and we have rules which is used where and we are pretty much consistent with that. Especially we do not introduce any other different projections to these and thus trying to keep the set consistent. In that we are even better than gnome - I discovered a few of icons there that does not adhere to their projection guidelines and have their own (though usually only slightly different from the main types). But on the other side it turns out that having three main types of projections is too much for an icon set and that having two is about the right number. So I started discovering the idea a bit more [2] with the hope to come to some conclusions (in the future) about echo projection guidelines. I am thinking about creating a parallel icon set that would use echo guidelines sans the projection ones, but I have not yet decided on the used type of projections. My top candidate currently is perspective projection from a similar viewpoint as used by gnome icon theme - that would much improve our coexistence with it. I am attaching proof of concept icon sketches following this projection rule. I plan to explore other types of projections as well and write another blog post (a follow-up to [2]) later (but it will take some time, since I don't have much spare time available for echo lately). Comments welcome, Martin References: [1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/newticket [2] http://mso-chronicles.blogspot.com/2008/10/echo-icon-theme-perspective-part-i.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: echo-perspective-a-arrow.png Type: image/png Size: 3042 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: echo-perspective-a-arrow.svg Type: image/svg+xml Size: 8049 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Mon Oct 20 19:21:43 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:21:43 +0300 Subject: gnome-wm and "compiz ... glib gconf" vs "compiz ... ccp" In-Reply-To: <48FCA047.6020805@gmail.com> References: <20081019190816.GB28009@victor.nirvana> <1224452785.31862.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20081019221252.GA6078@victor.nirvana> <48FCA047.6020805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081020192143.GA17407@victor.nirvana> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 08:14:15AM -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > Axel Thimm wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 05:46:25PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > >> On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 22:08 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > >>> some of the compiz plugins will not work properly unless compiz is > >>> started with the ccp plugin instead of glib/gconf. > >> Sounds like those plugins are broken and need fixing ? > > > > Honestly I have no idea, other than seeing that people on the web as > > well as most compiz/fusion tools seem to suggest doing so. > > > > If it's a bug then compiz & compiz-fusion are obviouly aware about it, > > since they provide workaround in their tools (and with compiz & > > compiz-fusion I mean core devs & community). And if they provide two > > workarounds, then either the bug is currently too involved to be fixed > > in a timely manner or it is not a bug but intended behaviour. > > > > In either case it would be nice to have Fedora work properly out of > > the box. If it's a bug and does get fixed one day we can go back to > > glib/gconf instead of ccp. Is there any reason otherwise not to just > > patch gnome-wm to use ccp now? > > > I think that user settings will get left behind each time you switch > between configuration backends. That's a big negative. Are you sure? ccp does default to store stuff under gconf and the settings look OK. It looks like this is intended to be shortcircuited one day, but not yet now, as many plugins work properly through ccp and not glib/gconf. > A bugzilla report against the affected plugins will get some people > looking at whether it's a bug in the plugin or not. People seem to be aware, there are official workarounds and ccp seems to have a migration policy in place. But until all plugins properly work directly with gconf we should not break it and use the ccp plugin. Anyway, it's just an observation about the user experience and how to improve it with a little quirk. Just give a couple plugins a try and see how they misbehave if you don't use ccp. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drago01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 20:30:13 2008 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:30:13 +0200 Subject: gnome-wm and "compiz ... glib gconf" vs "compiz ... ccp" In-Reply-To: <20081020192143.GA17407@victor.nirvana> References: <20081019190816.GB28009@victor.nirvana> <1224452785.31862.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20081019221252.GA6078@victor.nirvana> <48FCA047.6020805@gmail.com> <20081020192143.GA17407@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: 2008/10/20 Axel Thimm : > On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 08:14:15AM -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> Axel Thimm wrote: >> > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 05:46:25PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> >> On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 22:08 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: >> >>> some of the compiz plugins will not work properly unless compiz is >> >>> started with the ccp plugin instead of glib/gconf. >> >> Sounds like those plugins are broken and need fixing ? >> > >> > Honestly I have no idea, other than seeing that people on the web as >> > well as most compiz/fusion tools seem to suggest doing so. >> > >> > If it's a bug then compiz & compiz-fusion are obviouly aware about it, >> > since they provide workaround in their tools (and with compiz & >> > compiz-fusion I mean core devs & community). And if they provide two >> > workarounds, then either the bug is currently too involved to be fixed >> > in a timely manner or it is not a bug but intended behaviour. >> > >> > In either case it would be nice to have Fedora work properly out of >> > the box. If it's a bug and does get fixed one day we can go back to >> > glib/gconf instead of ccp. Is there any reason otherwise not to just >> > patch gnome-wm to use ccp now? >> > >> I think that user settings will get left behind each time you switch >> between configuration backends. That's a big negative. > > Are you sure? ccp does default to store stuff under gconf and the > settings look OK. It looks like this is intended to be shortcircuited > one day, but not yet now, as many plugins work properly through ccp > and not glib/gconf. > >> A bugzilla report against the affected plugins will get some people >> looking at whether it's a bug in the plugin or not. > > People seem to be aware, there are official workarounds and ccp seems > to have a migration policy in place. But until all plugins properly > work directly with gconf we should not break it and use the ccp > plugin. > > Anyway, it's just an observation about the user experience and how to > improve it with a little quirk. Just give a couple plugins a try and > see how they misbehave if you don't use ccp. err... what? the plugins do not care about the used configuration plugin at all ... if they do its a bug that should be fixed. which plugins are you talking about? From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Tue Oct 21 03:30:08 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:30:08 +0300 Subject: gnome-wm and "compiz ... glib gconf" vs "compiz ... ccp" In-Reply-To: References: <20081019190816.GB28009@victor.nirvana> <1224452785.31862.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20081019221252.GA6078@victor.nirvana> <48FCA047.6020805@gmail.com> <20081020192143.GA17407@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <20081021033008.GB17407@victor.nirvana> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 10:30:13PM +0200, drago01 wrote: > err... what? > the plugins do not care about the used configuration plugin at all ... > if they do its a bug that should be fixed. > which plugins are you talking about? It's quite a few, but for example the animations won't go random even though the setting is there or the cube deformation will be always cylindrical even if it should be none/spherical. Restaring compiz with the ccp plugin fixes all that and more. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ankit at redhat.com Wed Oct 22 09:40:20 2008 From: ankit at redhat.com (Ankitkumar Rameshchandra Patel) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:10:20 +0530 Subject: Virt* , s-c-display , desktop-effects - Translation submission issues! Message-ID: <48FEF504.8030606@redhat.com> Hi, Yesterday, 21st October 2008, was the deadline for completing the fedora 10 software translations. http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-trans-tasks.html Packages like virt*, s-c-display, desktop-effects got some issues with respect to the submissions of the translations. So, we have filed bugs, where we (FLP - Fedora Localization Project team) attached the translations of different languages respectively. Now, it seems the translations are not yet landed into the actual upstream repositories! Could someone, who has got the access, please take those translations from the bugs and commit them in the VCS? Here are the list of bugs, we filed against respective packages: [desktop-effect] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=438033 [system-config-display] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=438122 [virt-ctrl] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=467817 [virt-manager] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=467808 [virt-df] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=467809 [virt-inst] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=467810 [virt-mem] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=467811 [virt-p2v] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=467818 [virt-top] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=467816 Thanks in advance! -- Regards, Ankit Patel http://www.indianoss.org/ From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Oct 23 18:16:29 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:16:29 -0700 Subject: A little over size on i686 Live Message-ID: <1224785789.22443.7.camel@luminos.localdomain> Here is the diff, we're currently at 704M as of yesterday's rawhide. I haven't tried with today's rawhide as I was hoping yesterday's would be good enough for Snapshot 3. old has 988 packages new has 989 packages Growths: gnome-applets grew by 731182 (5.47%) (13370555->14101737) gnome-packagekit grew by 565153 (11.30%) (5002439->5567592) cheese grew by 211310 (6.51%) (3246100->3457410) eog grew by 182789 (3.99%) (4580749->4763538) gnome-terminal grew by 174122 (3.14%) (5548679->5722801) iwl3945-firmware grew by 150047 (48.89%) (306901->456948) system-config-printer-libs grew by 140830 (4.97%) (2832563->2973393) gnome-utils grew by 133484 (1.16%) (11495787->11629271) libgphoto2 grew by 132948 (3.54%) (3755582->3888530) gnome-keyring grew by 107495 (4.68%) (2296798->2404293) empathy grew by 81642 (2.78%) (2935175->3016817) nss grew by 53708 (1.75%) (3074879->3128587) policycoreutils grew by 42852 (1.17%) (3676955->3719807) hal-info grew by 15788 (2.58%) (611608->627396) obex-data-server grew by 8835 (4.59%) (192431->201266) PackageKit-yum grew by 5948 (1.91%) (311146->317094) im-chooser grew by 5867 (2.55%) (229781->235648) libsoup grew by 5435 (1.03%) (526114->531549) libgsf grew by 4736 (1.62%) (292917->297653) xorg-x11-drv-evdev grew by 3808 (17.16%) (22190->25998) PackageKit-udev-helper grew by 2990 (2.60%) (115221->118211) PackageKit-yum-plugin grew by 2990 (2.56%) (117013->120003) PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin grew by 2990 (2.38%) (125885->128875) gvfs-fuse grew by 1760 (6.99%) (25192->26952) xorg-x11-drv-elographics grew by 252 (1.47%) (17172->17424) Shrinkage: libpurple shrank by 298001 (1.40%) (21574311->21276310) plymouth shrank by 6410 (8.60%) (80906->74496) xorg-x11-drv-vmmouse shrank by 256 (1.56%) (16621->16365) New packages: solar-backgrounds: 39223909 PackageKit-glib: 302339 plymouth-plugin-spinfinity: 32477 plymouth-scripts: 3645 Removed packages: echo-icon-theme: 7923856 plymouth-plugin-solar: 491283 PackageKit-libs: 299361 -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From notting at redhat.com Thu Oct 23 18:29:05 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:29:05 -0400 Subject: A little over size on i686 Live In-Reply-To: <1224785789.22443.7.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1224785789.22443.7.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081023182905.GA25491@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jesse Keating (jkeating at redhat.com) said: > New packages: > solar-backgrounds: 39223909 Well, there's your problem. Is there a way to trim this for the livecd? > New packages: > plymouth-plugin-spinfinity: 32477 ... > Removed packages: > plymouth-plugin-solar: 491283 Is there a reason this switched? Bill From rstrode at redhat.com Thu Oct 23 18:43:15 2008 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:43:15 -0400 Subject: A little over size on i686 Live In-Reply-To: <20081023182905.GA25491@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1224785789.22443.7.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20081023182905.GA25491@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1224787395.3837.3.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> Hi, > Jesse Keating (jkeating at redhat.com) said: > > New packages: > > solar-backgrounds: 39223909 > > Well, there's your problem. Is there a way to trim this for the livecd? Martin already has a plan to split this into two packages. > > > New packages: > > plymouth-plugin-spinfinity: 32477 > ... > > > Removed packages: > > plymouth-plugin-solar: 491283 > > Is there a reason this switched? We haven't actually made a spinfinity->solar switch yet. There was a bug in the spec file where they both provided plymouth-system-plugin and I guess solar had the shorter name. It didn't have the right %post logic to enable it though, so we were actually getting neither. --Ray From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Oct 23 18:44:46 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:44:46 -0700 Subject: A little over size on i686 Live In-Reply-To: <1224787395.3837.3.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <1224785789.22443.7.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20081023182905.GA25491@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1224787395.3837.3.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1224787486.22443.11.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 14:43 -0400, Ray Strode wrote: > Hi, > > Jesse Keating (jkeating at redhat.com) said: > > > New packages: > > > solar-backgrounds: 39223909 > > > > Well, there's your problem. Is there a way to trim this for the livecd? > Martin already has a plan to split this into two packages. > > > > > > New packages: > > > plymouth-plugin-spinfinity: 32477 > > ... > > > > > Removed packages: > > > plymouth-plugin-solar: 491283 > > > > Is there a reason this switched? > We haven't actually made a spinfinity->solar switch yet. There > was a bug in the spec file where they both provided > > plymouth-system-plugin > > and I guess solar had the shorter name. It didn't have the right %post > logic to enable it though, so we were actually getting neither. > > --Ray > Is this something that could be fixed with an exclude in the kickstart manifest? -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rstrode at redhat.com Thu Oct 23 18:51:04 2008 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:51:04 -0400 Subject: A little over size on i686 Live In-Reply-To: <1224787486.22443.11.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1224785789.22443.7.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20081023182905.GA25491@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1224787395.3837.3.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> <1224787486.22443.11.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1224787864.3837.6.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> Hi, > Is this something that could be fixed with an exclude in the kickstart > manifest? Nothing to fix anymore. The spec file just needed to get fixed to only have one plugin that provides plymouth-system-plugin (which plugin that is may still change, of course). --Ray From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Oct 23 19:00:16 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:00:16 -0700 Subject: A little over size on i686 Live In-Reply-To: <1224787864.3837.6.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <1224785789.22443.7.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20081023182905.GA25491@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1224787395.3837.3.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> <1224787486.22443.11.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1224787864.3837.6.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1224788416.22443.12.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 14:51 -0400, Ray Strode wrote: > Nothing to fix anymore. The spec file just needed to get fixed to only > have one plugin that provides plymouth-system-plugin (which plugin that > is may still change, of course). When was that change made though? -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rstrode at redhat.com Thu Oct 23 21:26:42 2008 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:26:42 -0400 Subject: A little over size on i686 Live In-Reply-To: <1224788416.22443.12.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1224785789.22443.7.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20081023182905.GA25491@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1224787395.3837.3.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> <1224787486.22443.11.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1224787864.3837.6.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> <1224788416.22443.12.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1224797202.3837.7.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> Hi, > > Nothing to fix anymore. The spec file just needed to get fixed to only > > have one plugin that provides plymouth-system-plugin (which plugin that > > is may still change, of course). > > When was that change made though? * Fri Oct 17 2008 Ray Strode 0.5.0-0.2008.10.15.2 - Move plymouth-set-default-plugin to -libs (might help with bug 467356) - Fix up requires, provides and postun scripts --Ray From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Oct 24 07:34:54 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:34:54 +0300 Subject: A little over size on i686 Live In-Reply-To: <20081023182905.GA25491@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1224785789.22443.7.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20081023182905.GA25491@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <49017A9E.2030000@nicubunu.ro> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jesse Keating (jkeating at redhat.com) said: >> New packages: >> solar-backgrounds: 39223909 > > Well, there's your problem. Is there a way to trim this for the livecd? I think it would be useful to define a list of screen resolutions we are targeting, like: - 1600x1200, the most common aspect ratio; - 1920x1200, widescreen; - 1280x1024, odd, but still widely used; - 1024x600, netbooks. After the target resolutions are agreed (do we add dual screens, change to smaller/larger sized for those aspect ratios), then is easy to define the "core" and the "extra" package. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From martin.sourada at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 12:16:13 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:16:13 +0200 Subject: A little over size on i686 Live In-Reply-To: <49017A9E.2030000@nicubunu.ro> References: <1224785789.22443.7.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20081023182905.GA25491@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <49017A9E.2030000@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1224850573.13201.12.camel@pc-notebook> On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 10:34 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Jesse Keating (jkeating at redhat.com) said: > >> New packages: > >> solar-backgrounds: 39223909 > > > > Well, there's your problem. Is there a way to trim this for the livecd? > > I think it would be useful to define a list of screen resolutions we are > targeting, like: > - 1600x1200, the most common aspect ratio; > - 1920x1200, widescreen; > - 1280x1024, odd, but still widely used; > - 1024x600, netbooks. > > After the target resolutions are agreed (do we add dual screens, change > to smaller/larger sized for those aspect ratios), then is easy to define > the "core" and the "extra" package. We've already agreed with mo that the basic package will include 1600x1200 and 1680x1050, the -extra package will include all available with highest resolution. The basic package has now around 15.1MB and extras about 33.5MB (optipng saved some space), but since I needed to resize the wallpapers before including them in the basic package I am waiting for Mo to [review them/create the smaller versions] before I'll push it to rawhide. If you'd like, you can test them, their at my fedorapeople page [1][2] until I push them to rawhide. Martin References: [1] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/packages/RPMS/noarch/solar-backgrounds-0.91.0-0.1.fc10.noarch.rpm [2] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/packages/RPMS/noarch/solar-backgrounds-extras-0.91.0-0.1.fc10.noarch.rpm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 11:16:02 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:16:02 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus Message-ID: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I have seen this discussed in Fedora marketing but not here or on the devel lists. On Fedora marketing list people agreed that this should be enabled: gconftool-2 --type boolean --set /apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser true Should I post this as a feature request or is it enough just to post it here in this mailing list? Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From stickster at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 11:44:54 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 07:44:54 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 12:16 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, > I have seen this discussed in Fedora marketing but not here or on the > devel lists. On Fedora marketing list people agreed that this should > be enabled: > gconftool-2 --type boolean --set > /apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser true > > Should I post this as a feature request or is it enough just to post > it here in this mailing list? If I recall correctly this was discussed to death in the GNOME upstream back when it was changed many, many moons ago. You can feel free to take this request to the upstream rather than here in Fedora. If I were you, though, I wouldn't hold my breath about it. Many people, including myself, have become very accustomed to the spatial browser and its benefits, and would complain just as much if it were reverted. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From davidz at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 14:25:24 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 10:25:24 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 07:44 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > If I recall correctly this was discussed to death in the GNOME upstream > back when it was changed many, many moons ago. You can feel free to > take this request to the upstream rather than here in Fedora. FWIW, it was also recently discussed at the GNOME UI hackfest in Boston http://live.gnome.org/Boston2008/GUIHackfest with some real data (e.g. City of Largo of presentation) suggesting that spatial might not be the best default. You are of course correct that we should normally follow what upstream do; however occasionally we do change some defaults (for better or worse). In this case, I don't think it's clear, a lot of data (the Largo presentation, other distros, just observing users) might suggest the current default is not the best one. I don't know. Also, this begs the question about how we make decisions what our product looks like. There are many possible answers to that and it always depend on the circumstances; some people suggest voting (!), other suggests following upstream, sometimes a group of people in some committee makes a decision (packaging guidelines; FESCO overrides) and then there's the package-maintainer-gets-to-decide fiefdom (like our firewall maintainer deciding to break .local name resolution (in F9 at least) because of "security" "concerns"). It seems the latter one is how Fedora works; with most maintainers opting to follow upstream. For most packages this is probably fine but for things like the desktop (and user experience in general) it's a little different. FWIW, I personally don't think any of these are good answers. Often I think it would be useful if we had a good dictator to tell us what to do (in the Linus is the dictator of the kernel way). I don't know. But I think it's a bit broken (not totally though) how things currently work, I think if we changed things a bit we might be creating a better product and we might avoid a lot of the harsh flame wars and exchanges we see on the lists these days. These happens primarily because of some inability to make decisions. Anyway, no real answers here, only more questions; hopefully food for thought. > If I were you, though, I wouldn't hold my breath about it. Many people, > including myself, have become very accustomed to the spatial browser and > its benefits, and would complain just as much if it were reverted. Take it easy, someone just proposed changing the default; I think it's not too much work for you to toggle a single checkbox on a new install. That's what people not using spatial mode (a significant amount including myself) does anyway. David From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 15:45:34 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 08:45:34 -0700 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1225122334.2157.3.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 10:25 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > > FWIW, I personally don't think any of these are good answers. Often I > think it would be useful if we had a good dictator to tell us what to do > (in the Linus is the dictator of the kernel way). It could work this way, at least for areas of influence. The Desktop SIG has essentially been given carte blanche over the (GNOME) Desktop experience, with the (minor/major) exception of the artwork. If the SIG so decides, they can elect or appoint said dictator who can make all these decisions. That's nearly how the release engineering team works, I'm a dictator however I do have people vote on issues mostly so that I can make sure that we've discussed things to a reasonable majority opinion before I dictate. It's not so much as voting as opinion polling. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 16:00:13 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:00:13 +0000 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 10:25 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 07:44 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > If I recall correctly this was discussed to death in the GNOME upstream > > back when it was changed many, many moons ago. You can feel free to > > take this request to the upstream rather than here in Fedora. > > FWIW, it was also recently discussed at the GNOME UI hackfest in Boston > > http://live.gnome.org/Boston2008/GUIHackfest > > with some real data (e.g. City of Largo of presentation) suggesting that > spatial might not be the best default. This is interesting, thanks. > You are of course correct that we should normally follow what upstream > do; however occasionally we do change some defaults (for better or > worse). In this case, I don't think it's clear, a lot of data (the Largo > presentation, other distros, just observing users) might suggest the > current default is not the best one. I don't know. I don't either -- I presume that the GNOME community makes these choices based on some guiding principles of design and usability. I don't claim to know what those are, though. If they > Also, this begs the question about how we make decisions what our > product looks like. There are many possible answers to that and it > always depend on the circumstances; some people suggest voting (!), > other suggests following upstream, sometimes a group of people in some > committee makes a decision (packaging guidelines; FESCO overrides) and > then there's the package-maintainer-gets-to-decide fiefdom (like our > firewall maintainer deciding to break .local name resolution (in F9 at > least) because of "security" "concerns"). > > It seems the latter one is how Fedora works; with most maintainers > opting to follow upstream. Which, not coincidentally, is in agreement with Fedora's overall objectives. In cases where groups are involved, we usually try to achieve consensus as the easiest way to make decisions, resorting to voting when that doesn't work, or when the decision-making group is itself a representative group. > For most packages this is probably fine but > for things like the desktop (and user experience in general) it's a > little different. > > FWIW, I personally don't think any of these are good answers. Often I > think it would be useful if we had a good dictator to tell us what to do > (in the Linus is the dictator of the kernel way). Who exactly do you believe should be that dictator? -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rstrode at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 16:18:43 2008 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:18:43 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> Hi, > You are of course correct that we should normally follow what upstream > do; however occasionally we do change some defaults (for better or > worse). In this case, I don't think it's clear, a lot of data (the Largo > presentation, other distros, just observing users) might suggest the > current default is not the best one. I don't know This isn't the sort of thing we should diverge from upstream on. If it makes sense to change it for Fedora, we should lobby to get it changed upstream as well. This case in particular is silly, since Alex (who wrote spatial mode) is upstream GNOME and downstream Fedora. --Ray From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Oct 27 16:26:11 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:26:11 +0200 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4905EBA3.7080405@nicubunu.ro> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 10:25 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: >> >> FWIW, I personally don't think any of these are good answers. Often I >> think it would be useful if we had a good dictator to tell us what to do >> (in the Linus is the dictator of the kernel way). > > Who exactly do you believe should be that dictator? I think many of us remember the times when we had Seth Nickell and Havoc talking "visionary" things about the desktop (even if they weren't exactly "dictators"), it was very useful to see the direction we are going to... any direction. Currently the appearance is we do not have any direction beside "follow upstream", but the upstream (GNOME) pretty much lack the direction also (Havoc and Seth were "upstream"). So yes, I would pretty much like to see someone taking leadership and defining a direction, a "vision". And if he is coherent and active, we may be glad to call him our "dictator". -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 16:43:00 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:43:00 +0100 (CET) Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> For most packages this is probably fine but for things like the >> desktop (and user experience in general) it's a little different. >> >> FWIW, I personally don't think any of these are good answers. Often I >> think it would be useful if we had a good dictator to tell us what to >> do (in the Linus is the dictator of the kernel way). > > Who exactly do you believe should be that dictator? Possible answers (though not necessarily an exhaustive list): (1) Desktop SIG, which jrb and any number of the folks who work for jrb are free to participate in. Most SIGs have someone who is looked to as the leader, and part of that leadership is to make the tough decision. (2) From the Red Hat side, jrb is the manager of the desktop team, and while I have not idea how he runs his team, I would think that if you need a dictatorial-type of decision to be made, you could always just ask your boss to make it. (3) Ultimately for anything involving Fedora, it is in the job description of the Fedora Project Leader to be the benevolent dictator. This responsibility is delegated down to the Fedora Board (and in the cases relevant to this list) also to the Desktop SIG and Artwork Team. But none of that changes the fact that *Red Hat* pays the Fedora Project Leader to be the benevolent dictator for anything that carries the Fedora brand. (4) Package maintainers, as already stated, who can choose to default to upstream if they so desire. The key to successfully managing the many parallel and overlapping threads of Fedora is not to have DEMOCRACY -- with a few exceptions, I generally agree with davidz's general theme of "voting on stuff isn't the right way to make a decision" -- but to have a decision-making process and chain of command identified so that decisions ultimately do get made. Then if a certain person dislikes a decision, they should know (a) WHY that decision was made, and (b) WHO made that decision. Bonus points for the decision makers stating their rationale in public, and for having open discussions leading up to the decision, depending on how important or complicated the decision is. --Max From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 16:46:53 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:46:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Max Spevack wrote: > Bonus points for the decision makers stating their rationale in > public, and for having open discussions leading up to the decision, > depending on how important or complicated the decision is. After reading Nicu's reply, I also want to add that my analysis does not touch on any questions of decision-making or leadership in the upstream GNOME project that could then filter down into Fedora to package maintainers or the Desktop SIG. As I do not actively participate in the upstream GNOME community, I am not in a place to comment on how it functions. --Max From davidz at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 16:58:15 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:58:15 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 12:18 -0400, Ray Strode wrote: > This case in particular is silly, since Alex (who wrote spatial mode) is > upstream GNOME and downstream Fedora. You are missing the point that the sums of the bits (our product) is larger than the bits itself (each package). I posited in my original mail that we can create a better product if we have a dictator (or group of dictators) that makes decisions. In other words, we need to move away from the model where every package maintainer maintains his own fiefdom. It's counter productive to the point that it cripples the product (e.g. the firewall example I gave earlier). (FWIW, in this particular case I see little chance of us actually switching to browser mode. E.g. with the dictator candidates I have in mind, I don't see it happening. I guess I'm just one of them odd-ball browser mode persons.) > This isn't the sort of thing we should diverge from upstream on. If > it makes sense to change it for Fedora, we should lobby to get it > changed upstream as well. Sure. But as I outlined in my original mail this is not always possible. But it's a nice goal. David From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 17:58:03 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:58:03 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <64b14b300810271058ibaf10a3n29e970cd7ad1a11d@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/27 Paul W. Frields : > On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 12:16 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> Hi, >> I have seen this discussed in Fedora marketing but not here or on the >> devel lists. On Fedora marketing list people agreed that this should >> be enabled: >> gconftool-2 --type boolean --set >> /apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser true >> >> Should I post this as a feature request or is it enough just to post >> it here in this mailing list? > > If I recall correctly this was discussed to death in the GNOME upstream > back when it was changed many, many moons ago. You can feel free to > take this request to the upstream rather than here in Fedora. > > If I were you, though, I wouldn't hold my breath about it. Many people, > including myself, have become very accustomed to the spatial browser and > its benefits, and would complain just as much if it were reverted. > > -- > Paul W. Frields > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > I guess so, that is why I wrote a simple blog post and got lots of answers (yours including), thanks. And you are right. If you can take responses to that blog post as some sort of pool it is probably 50/50. http://snipurl.com/4qzf3 [kernelreloaded_blog385_com] Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 18:04:08 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:04:08 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 5:58 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 12:18 -0400, Ray Strode wrote: >> This case in particular is silly, since Alex (who wrote spatial mode) is >> upstream GNOME and downstream Fedora. > > You are missing the point that the sums of the bits (our product) is > larger than the bits itself (each package). I posited in my original > mail that we can create a better product if we have a dictator (or group > of dictators) that makes decisions. In other words, we need to move away > from the model where every package maintainer maintains his own fiefdom. > It's counter productive to the point that it cripples the product (e.g. > the firewall example I gave earlier). Aaaahhhhh! That is why I can't open my corporate local pages!!! I thought I was going nuts! I went from FC6 to F10 (rawhide) and I thought this was some rawhide bug or miss configuration on my part. How do I enable .local pages to work again? Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 18:10:25 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:10:25 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <4905EBA3.7080405@nicubunu.ro> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4905EBA3.7080405@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <64b14b300810271110u18e8c54bwfa5429161fc61fff@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: >> >> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 10:25 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: >>> >>> FWIW, I personally don't think any of these are good answers. Often I >>> think it would be useful if we had a good dictator to tell us what to do >>> (in the Linus is the dictator of the kernel way). >> >> Who exactly do you believe should be that dictator? > > I think many of us remember the times when we had Seth Nickell and Havoc > talking "visionary" things about the desktop (even if they weren't exactly > "dictators"), it was very useful to see the direction we are going to... any > direction. > Currently the appearance is we do not have any direction beside "follow > upstream", but the upstream (GNOME) pretty much lack the direction also > (Havoc and Seth were "upstream"). > > So yes, I would pretty much like to see someone taking leadership and > defining a direction, a "vision". And if he is coherent and active, we may > be glad to call him our "dictator". > Upstream also says that the things they do don't mean that everybody should follow them exactly. Upstream usually does provide some sane defaults but gives the freedom to downstream distibutions to customize them the way distribution's users feel suits them best. And of course there are things that upstream asks from downstream distrubutions not to change if possible, but some distributions do it anyway. That is why I understand Nicu that there should be a "benevolent dictator vision". Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From davidz at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 18:13:58 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:13:58 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 19:04 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Aaaahhhhh! That is why I can't open my corporate local pages!!! I > thought I was going nuts! I went from FC6 to F10 (rawhide) and I > thought this was some rawhide bug or miss configuration on my part. > > How do I enable .local pages to work again? Just disable the firewall (service iptables stop)? That's what I do anyway. IMNSHO, these days the firewall is a relic from the 1990's era. It breaks at least mDNS (e.g. .local name resolution), gnome-user-share, banshee/rhythmbox etc. music sharing. I also think we should also disable the firewall for the desktop spin. David From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 18:19:43 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:19:43 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <64b14b300810271119t1b90b4a7p9e8970fceb27dc98@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 7:13 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 19:04 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> Aaaahhhhh! That is why I can't open my corporate local pages!!! I >> thought I was going nuts! I went from FC6 to F10 (rawhide) and I >> thought this was some rawhide bug or miss configuration on my part. >> >> How do I enable .local pages to work again? > > Just disable the firewall (service iptables stop)? That's what I do > anyway. IMNSHO, these days the firewall is a relic from the 1990's era. > It breaks at least mDNS (e.g. .local name resolution), gnome-user-share, > banshee/rhythmbox etc. music sharing. I also think we should also > disable the firewall for the desktop spin. > > David When I suggested only for ipv6iptables (not fully understanding it) to be disabled for Desktop spin I got trashed on devel mailing list, so good luck with that ;) Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From davidz at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 18:43:58 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:43:58 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <64b14b300810271119t1b90b4a7p9e8970fceb27dc98@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271119t1b90b4a7p9e8970fceb27dc98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1225133038.14473.70.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 19:19 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Just disable the firewall (service iptables stop)? That's what I do > > anyway. IMNSHO, these days the firewall is a relic from the 1990's era. > > It breaks at least mDNS (e.g. .local name resolution), gnome-user-share, > > banshee/rhythmbox etc. music sharing. I also think we should also > > disable the firewall for the desktop spin. > > > > David > > When I suggested only for ipv6iptables (not fully understanding it) to > be disabled for Desktop spin I got trashed on devel mailing list, so > good luck with that ;) These are people that are probably happy about the current user experience and for whom iptables(8) and system-config-firewall probably are the right tools. And if you run a server, these tools may (or may not but I digress) be the right answer. However, for the desktop, the 1990s called and they want their firewall back. And we should comply since today the desktop is completely broken when it comes to file/music sharing. It's ironic isn't it? We go through all this effort to implement this stuff (Lennart with .local resolution in Avahi, others like Jon McCann for DAAP support in RB, Alex and Bastien for file sharing) and leave broken in the default install? It's ridiculous! (Of course we are not going to just do "-iptables" in the Desktop kickstart file, we need to properly assess the situation. Today, unlike the 1990s, we have the ability to confine services with things like SELinux. We could restrict access to local link only (mDNS would work, wide area DNS-SD wouldn't work which is fine) in the default install. We have stack smashing protection. Privilege separation. Etc. It's not exactly rocket science to do this (but not trivial either); someone just needs to sit down and work out a threat assessment, figure out what changes we need and then just do it.) David From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 27 18:50:03 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:50:03 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 14:13 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 19:04 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Aaaahhhhh! That is why I can't open my corporate local pages!!! I > > thought I was going nuts! I went from FC6 to F10 (rawhide) and I > > thought this was some rawhide bug or miss configuration on my part. > > > > How do I enable .local pages to work again? > > Just disable the firewall (service iptables stop)? That's what I do > anyway. IMNSHO, these days the firewall is a relic from the 1990's era. > It breaks at least mDNS (e.g. .local name resolution), gnome-user-share, > banshee/rhythmbox etc. music sharing. I also think we should also > disable the firewall for the desktop spin. > That's outrageously dangerous. And given how little experience you have maintaining systems or networks I'd say your opinion is very humble indeed. Please don't give dangerous and costly advice like this. -sv From davidz at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 19:16:32 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:16:32 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 14:50 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > That's outrageously dangerous. And given how little experience you have > maintaining systems or networks I'd say your opinion is very humble > indeed. (Awesome. Maybe I should make statements about your experience too. Because I mean, I don't know you very well either and talk is cheap.) > Please don't give dangerous and costly advice like this. Hardly advice if it's suffixed with a question mark? Maybe. Anyway, see my other message; maybe I should have elaborated in the original message. David From tiagomatos at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 19:21:10 2008 From: tiagomatos at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Rui_Tiago_Ca=C3=A7=C3=A3o_Matos?=) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:21:10 +0000 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: 2008/10/27 seth vidal : >> Just disable the firewall (service iptables stop)? That's what I do >> anyway. IMNSHO, these days the firewall is a relic from the 1990's era. >> It breaks at least mDNS (e.g. .local name resolution), gnome-user-share, >> banshee/rhythmbox etc. music sharing. I also think we should also >> disable the firewall for the desktop spin. >> > > That's outrageously dangerous. Please tell us why then. I also disable the firewall services since I don't have any TCP servers listening to the outside world. Rui From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 27 19:25:12 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:25:12 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 15:16 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 14:50 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > That's outrageously dangerous. And given how little experience you have > > maintaining systems or networks I'd say your opinion is very humble > > indeed. > > (Awesome. Maybe I should make statements about your experience too. > Because I mean, I don't know you very well either and talk is cheap.) If you'd like to have a CV-off with regard to security awareness and actual experience maintaining and securing systems and networks, I'd be happy to do so. Disabling firewalls on individual systems be they desktops or servers is a BAD idea. Full stop. > > Please don't give dangerous and costly advice like this. > > Hardly advice if it's suffixed with a question mark? Maybe. Anyway, see > my other message; maybe I should have elaborated in the original > message. I wanted to make sure there was no doubt that disabling firewalls is NOT something anyone should do. -sv From walters at verbum.org Mon Oct 27 19:42:27 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:42:27 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: Hi, On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:25 PM, seth vidal wrote: > > I wanted to make sure there was no doubt that disabling firewalls is NOT > something anyone should do. There are different cases. Having the firewall on in every case is a simple story, but it does break the user experience for e.g. the "unmanaged home network, behind Linksys router" case. This is a rather common scenario for the kind of audience we would like to target with the Fedora desktop. While I personally just turn the firewall off and was considering advocating that, one scenario we should consider is "public coffee shop with wifi". What Windows Vista does is prompt whenever you connect to a new network whether it's "home" or not. I assume if you click "not home" (I forget what the option's called), it enables the firewall fully. If you click "Home" it's either off or more permissive. Something like that would need NetworkManager integration. Anyways, were we to consider this for F11 I'd suggest a feature page with rational thought and analysis (as opposed to assertions and resume comparisons). From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 27 19:51:51 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:51:51 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1225137111.8033.35.camel@rosebud> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 19:21 +0000, Rui Tiago Ca??o Matos wrote: > 2008/10/27 seth vidal : > >> Just disable the firewall (service iptables stop)? That's what I do > >> anyway. IMNSHO, these days the firewall is a relic from the 1990's era. > >> It breaks at least mDNS (e.g. .local name resolution), gnome-user-share, > >> banshee/rhythmbox etc. music sharing. I also think we should also > >> disable the firewall for the desktop spin. > >> > > > > That's outrageously dangerous. > > Please tell us why then. I also disable the firewall services since I > don't have any TCP servers listening to the outside world. We have a number of applications that end of listening on random ports. At which point the system is vulnerable (or sometimes just the user) is vulnerable to whatever those daemons are vulnerable to. If the firewall is on and setup to deny all, allow few then we're markedly safer for the odd port-listening daemons. If the process needs to be able to listen on an external port then that needs to be enabled separately. You don't just turn off all the rules as a solution. -sv From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 27 19:53:33 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:53:33 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1225137213.8033.38.camel@rosebud> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 15:42 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:25 PM, seth vidal wrote: > > > > I wanted to make sure there was no doubt that disabling firewalls is NOT > > something anyone should do. > > There are different cases. Having the firewall on in every case is a > simple story, but it does break the user experience for e.g. the > "unmanaged home network, behind Linksys router" case. This is a > rather common scenario for the kind of audience we would like to > target with the Fedora desktop. > > While I personally just turn the firewall off and was considering > advocating that, one scenario we should consider is "public coffee > shop with wifi". What Windows Vista does is prompt whenever you > connect to a new network whether it's "home" or not. I assume if you > click "not home" (I forget what the option's called), it enables the > firewall fully. If you click "Home" it's either off or more > permissive. Something like that would need NetworkManager > integration. Making the user choose to turn off the firewall or enable specific ports(or port ranges) is reasonable. Making the default be no firewall is not reasonable. -sv From davidz at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 19:53:30 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:53:30 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1225137210.14473.95.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 15:25 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > If you'd like to have a CV-off with regard to security awareness and > actual experience maintaining and securing systems and networks, I'd > be happy to do so. This is classical. Didn't they teach you that bad security is worse than no security? Here's the thing: today the default install of the desktop is broken when it comes to file sharing. It's kinda hard to disagree with that, so I'm going to go ahead and assume you at least agree with that. Hence, if people want to share files using, say, Rhythmbox (and they do), they are left with either 1. Turning of the firewall 2. Configuring iptables(8) or using system-config-firewall Now, let me explain to you how RB/Banshee/gnome-user-share works. They allocate a random high port number. Now, before you complain that you think this in broken you have to understand why this is so. The programs have to do this because you may have several sessions or instances running. So in general you can't really predict the port number (or even range) to use since the user may add new services that share stuff on the network. So in general 2. won't really work (because you'd have to update it dynamically) so users of course resort to 1. Wow, what's that thing going out the window? That other useful stuff that we might have configured the iptables(8) stack with except for blocking ports. Also, the user interface of both iptables(8) and system-config-firewall is useless and scary. Even for me. Thus, people are left with doing 1. Lose. But then again, I don't have that CV saying I know about security (or maybe I do and it's mere existence is classified). > Disabling firewalls on individual systems be they desktops or servers is > a BAD idea. Full stop. Your opinion is noted. I respectfully disagree. I'd suggest to look at how current malware (including Skype) works. It would probably also be useful for you to realize just how ubiquitous the HTTP protocol is and what kind of users it has (hint, more than HTML pages). (FWIW, for a long time my position was that we should just have an system API to allow trusted apps to poke hole in the local firewall (after determining it's port number) after user confirmation via things like PolicyKit. This can be done in a secure way most of the time because the actual program for sharing doesn't link to things like GTK+. E.g. it can be made secure the same way setuid binaries are secure. But I now think that's a terrible user experience plus I also think our current "firewall" is nothing more than snake oil.) > I wanted to make sure there was no doubt that disabling firewalls is NOT > something anyone should do. No, you wanted to make people aware of your _opinion_. Of which quite a few people, including yours truly, disagree. David From davidz at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 20:00:08 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:00:08 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225137111.8033.35.camel@rosebud> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225137111.8033.35.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1225137608.14473.99.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 15:51 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > We have a number of applications that end of listening on random ports. > At which point the system is vulnerable (or sometimes just the user) is > vulnerable to whatever those daemons are vulnerable to. The solution here would be to confine these daemons with SELinux, e.g. the httpd process started by gnome-user-share would be confined to only reading from ~/Public (and writing to ~/Public/Drop Box). Of course, things like Rhythmbox would need to be split into two bits since we generally can't confine GTK+ applications. (Also, it's funny you write "just the user". Remember that on a typical desktop system, the only high value targets are in $HOME with most of them in $HOME/.mozilla.) > If the process needs to be able to listen on an external port then that > needs to be enabled separately. You don't just turn off all the rules as > a solution. However, I'd argue that people end up doing this anyway. That is, the 20% of the people that didn't give up figuring out how to do this. David From davidz at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 20:15:48 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:15:48 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1225138548.14473.106.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 15:42 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > While I personally just turn the firewall off and was considering > advocating that, one scenario we should consider is "public coffee > shop with wifi". What Windows Vista does is prompt whenever you > connect to a new network whether it's "home" or not. I assume if you > click "not home" (I forget what the option's called), it enables the > firewall fully. If you click "Home" it's either off or more > permissive. Something like that would need NetworkManager > integration. This sounds like a good idea. But it's prudent to note this is not about security, it's about privacy: making sure you don't share stuff with people you don't know. We should strive to make Fedora secure by default. With good architecture and design (and things like SELinux), this is indeed possible as I noted with the notes about having SELinux integration for gnome-user-share. This is much better than our current setup where virtually everyone ends up turning off the firewall just to make their computer work. > Anyways, were we to consider this for F11 I'd suggest a feature page > with rational thought and analysis (as opposed to assertions and > resume comparisons). I don't think anyone disagrees with that. We just need someone to own this task, execute and deliver. David From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Mon Oct 27 20:45:38 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:45:38 +0200 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225137210.14473.95.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <1225137210.14473.95.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <20081027204538.GA5325@victor.nirvana> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 03:53:30PM -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > Hence, if people want to share files using, say, Rhythmbox (and they > do), they are left with either > > 1. Turning of the firewall > 2. Configuring iptables(8) or using system-config-firewall > > Now, let me explain to you how RB/Banshee/gnome-user-share works. They > allocate a random high port number. Now, before you complain that you > think this in broken you have to understand why this is so. > > The programs have to do this because you may have several sessions or > instances running. So in general you can't really predict the port > number (or even range) to use since the user may add new services that > share stuff on the network. > > So in general 2. won't really work (because you'd have to update it > dynamically) so users of course resort to 1. Wow, what's that thing > going out the window? That other useful stuff that we might have > configured the iptables(8) stack with except for blocking ports. But dynamical ports are not new to iptables, lots of protocols, be that rpc, h323 or even p-o-d passive ftp need them and conntrack/pom rectify the `static firewall' view. I haven't followed up the latest netfilter developments, but I know there is even a userspace lib for registering such connections. Maybe RB/mDNS and friends just need a pom `plugin'. Note that just as you turn off iptables and prefer selinux, I do that the other way around, as my selinux foo is less than desirable. I guess both of us are not really doing The Right Thing, but sometimes time matters. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mzerqung at 0pointer.de Mon Oct 27 20:49:24 2008 From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:49:24 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> On Mon, 27.10.08 15:25, seth vidal (skvidal at fedoraproject.org) wrote: > If you'd like to have a CV-off with regard to security awareness and > actual experience maintaining and securing systems and networks, I'd be > happy to do so. > > Disabling firewalls on individual systems be they desktops or servers is > a BAD idea. Full stop. That is nonsense. Firewalls on a desktop make no sense, and David is right is that it is a relic and not much more. It's paranoia at best to keep this installed by default. Why are desktop firewalls wrong? 1) they are not dynamic. In times where laptops are constantly moving between networks, with stuff like zeroconf or dynamicly assigned port numbers they would need to adapt dynamically to the circumstances. However, right now they are single system-wide static rule table. 2) They do very very superficial security checking only. They hence give a false sense of security. Also, DNS or DHCP traffic is usually allowed without any inspection. Which makes the whole thing a joke. And then, using stuff like by-ip-range rules is treacherous -- IP addresses can be faked and it times von NAT not unique. 3) They are redundant -- it's just a second line of defense. If you don't trust a service you run then maybe you shouldn't be running it at all. The way we have it right now on the desktop is that the firewall is mostly just a second line of why-the-fuck-is-my-stuff-not-working. Firewalls do make sense -- on routers and on servers -- but not so much on desktops. If you want to make them somewhat sensible on desktops then you'd have to fix issue #1 above. That means, you have to add some way that applications may issue requests to punch holes in the firewall. Which is kind of pointless, since calling listen() should implicitly be just this kind of request. And if it is, then the firewall is entirely redundant. On routers and on servers it makes sense to use by-ip-range rules and a lot of other fancier rules. However, on the desktop -- because they move all the time between networks -- that makes no sense. So basically the desktop firewall boils down to globally allowing or globally not allowing connections to certain ports. And you know what? If that's all what a desktop fw is about, then they are completely made redundant by listen(). Also, let's note that last time I checked Ubuntu as one popular example it didn't install a firewall on the desktop. Instead they simply have a strict policy about which services may listen on a port by default. And that's exactly what we should be doing, too. On Ubuntu only very few services may listen on a port by default, one being Avahi. And those services were of course very closely checked before they were whitelisted. That said, it would make sense to add some option to NM to mark a specific network as "not trusted -- web only" in which case mDNS and everything else would be blocked and only HTTP/DNS/DHCP would be let through. But that be optional -- and dynamic. Without that desktop firewalls are useless and everyone who wants to get work done disables them anyway. So let's disable them by default, too! Lennart -- Lennart Poettering Red Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Mon Oct 27 20:54:52 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:54:52 +0200 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <20081027204538.GA5325@victor.nirvana> References: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <1225137210.14473.95.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081027204538.GA5325@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <20081027205452.GB5325@victor.nirvana> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:45:38PM +0200, Axel Thimm wrote: > But dynamical ports are not new to iptables, [...] even p-o-d passive ftp > need them [...] Actually I meant active ftp. While passive ftp also negotiates dynamical ports the non-trivial firewall setup is when the server tries to connect to a seemingless random port within the secured IP range. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mzerqung at 0pointer.de Mon Oct 27 20:55:56 2008 From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:55:56 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <20081027204538.GA5325@victor.nirvana> References: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <1225137210.14473.95.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081027204538.GA5325@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <20081027205556.GA32156@tango.0pointer.de> On Mon, 27.10.08 22:45, Axel Thimm (Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net) wrote: > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 03:53:30PM -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > > Hence, if people want to share files using, say, Rhythmbox (and they > > do), they are left with either > > > > 1. Turning of the firewall > > 2. Configuring iptables(8) or using system-config-firewall > > > > Now, let me explain to you how RB/Banshee/gnome-user-share works. They > > allocate a random high port number. Now, before you complain that you > > think this in broken you have to understand why this is so. > > > > The programs have to do this because you may have several sessions or > > instances running. So in general you can't really predict the port > > number (or even range) to use since the user may add new services that > > share stuff on the network. > > > > So in general 2. won't really work (because you'd have to update it > > dynamically) so users of course resort to 1. Wow, what's that thing > > going out the window? That other useful stuff that we might have > > configured the iptables(8) stack with except for blocking ports. > > But dynamical ports are not new to iptables, lots of protocols, be > that rpc, h323 or even p-o-d passive ftp need them and conntrack/pom > rectify the `static firewall' view. But all those protocols start the connection with a well known port and then hand things off to a dynamic port. If you use truely random ports than iptables needs to sense what kind of protocol something is based on the packet contents. Which security-wise is a joke, and hence the whole idea makes no sense. > I haven't followed up the latest netfilter developments, but I know > there is even a userspace lib for registering such connections. Maybe > RB/mDNS and friends just need a pom `plugin'. The Linux kernel already has an API for that. It's called listen(). Lennart -- Lennart Poettering Red Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 27 21:04:14 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:04:14 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> Message-ID: <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 21:49 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > Disabling firewalls on individual systems be they desktops or servers is > > a BAD idea. Full stop. > > That is nonsense. > > Firewalls on a desktop make no sense, and David is right is that it is > a relic and not much more. It's paranoia at best to keep this > installed by default. I don't know what kind of desktops you're referring to but desktops are the soft-squishy inside that gets large corporate networks in deep trouble when there is an border fw breach. This is why it is important to have a multi-layered security policy/infrastructure. 1. border fw 2. host-based fw - including desktops 3. deny-all policies at the system level 4. well-audited apps that are runnable 5. restrictive policies on what can be run at all. If you want to argue that enhancing the firewall technology that we are currently using to allow a more nuanced user-interaction other than 'on' or 'off' that's fine by me - but relying on selinux to solve all network-border issues seems like the wrong tool for the job. -sv From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Mon Oct 27 21:08:13 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:08:13 +0200 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <20081027205556.GA32156@tango.0pointer.de> References: <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <1225137210.14473.95.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081027204538.GA5325@victor.nirvana> <20081027205556.GA32156@tango.0pointer.de> Message-ID: <20081027210813.GC5325@victor.nirvana> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 09:55:56PM +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > But dynamical ports are not new to iptables, lots of protocols, be > > that rpc, h323 or even p-o-d passive ftp need them and conntrack/pom > > rectify the `static firewall' view. > > But all those protocols start the connection with a well known port > and then hand things off to a dynamic port. If you use truely random > ports than iptables needs to sense what kind of protocol something is > based on the packet contents. Which security-wise is a joke, and > hence the whole idea makes no sense. And there are services that use truely random ports? E.g. w/o any handshaking or negotiation about these ports by well-defined processes? Why do we have mDNS/DNS-SD/SSDP for? Just like FTP negotiates the `truely random' ports, so do the zeroconf techniques with ips/ports/services. iptables/netfilter already has intelligent agents to parse the passing packages for needed dynamical firewall configration. Just check it out, and maybe you'll rethink about the netfilter project. :) > > I haven't followed up the latest netfilter developments, but I know > > there is even a userspace lib for registering such connections. Maybe > > RB/mDNS and friends just need a pom `plugin'. > > The Linux kernel already has an API for that. It's called listen(). Cool, so any local non-priviledged process could open up holes in the firewall above ports 1024 as it pleases w/o the user even noticing. Why not remove password protection from accounts while we are at it? ;) -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From smooge at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 21:12:49 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:12:49 -0600 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> Message-ID: <80d7e4090810271412q618c41b2t5b91b2231b271034@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: > On Mon, 27.10.08 15:25, seth vidal (skvidal at fedoraproject.org) wrote: > >> If you'd like to have a CV-off with regard to security awareness and >> actual experience maintaining and securing systems and networks, I'd be >> happy to do so. >> >> Disabling firewalls on individual systems be they desktops or servers is >> a BAD idea. Full stop. > > That is nonsense. > > Firewalls on a desktop make no sense, and David is right is that it is > a relic and not much more. It's paranoia at best to keep this > installed by default. > > Why are desktop firewalls wrong? > > 1) they are not dynamic. In times where laptops are constantly moving > between networks, with stuff like zeroconf or dynamicly assigned > port numbers they would need to adapt dynamically to the > circumstances. However, right now they are single system-wide > static rule table. > And for the most part that is pretty good for the desktop. Watching the traffic I see at most cafe's, the university network, etc.. firewalls are still needed and not just for Windows boxes. And to be honest the biggest set of penetration and problems that occur in the world are from desktops. Break into the desktop, and use it as your base for other desktops until you get to a server. So far this semester I have dealt with several compromised systems all were a) Linux, b) no firewall, and c) desktops or printers with embedded fedora of all things. The Windows desktops have been running behind the curve. Why do I feel like I am reliving the 1990's desktop discussions of "why are we using this privilege seperation? it makes no sense, and keeps causing my apps to not work! Answer: Run as root. It fixes all problems." In the end, the current firewall is a condom. It gets in the way, but for a good reason. If you can trust your partner, then do what you want.. if you can't then wear one. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From mzerqung at 0pointer.de Mon Oct 27 21:19:19 2008 From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:19:19 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> References: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> On Mon, 27.10.08 17:04, seth vidal (skvidal at fedoraproject.org) wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 21:49 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > > Disabling firewalls on individual systems be they desktops or servers is > > > a BAD idea. Full stop. > > > > That is nonsense. > > > > Firewalls on a desktop make no sense, and David is right is that it is > > a relic and not much more. It's paranoia at best to keep this > > installed by default. > > > I don't know what kind of desktops you're referring to but desktops are > the soft-squishy inside that gets large corporate networks in deep > trouble when there is an border fw breach. This is why it is important > to have a multi-layered security policy/infrastructure. > 1. border fw > 2. host-based fw - including desktops > 3. deny-all policies at the system level > 4. well-audited apps that are runnable > 5. restrictive policies on what can be run at all. > > If you want to argue that enhancing the firewall technology that we are > currently using to allow a more nuanced user-interaction other than 'on' > or 'off' that's fine by me - but relying on selinux to solve all > network-border issues seems like the wrong tool for the job. You're missing the point. It makes no sense to split items 2-5. If a user wants to run an application then he will sit down and reconfigure all the firewalls he has control over until things work for him. (If he is not capable of that then he will file a bug and cry). And hence, having those four levels of defense is just pointless. A user will circumvent that anyway if he wants to run his app. The firewall hence simply works as an annoying extra step. It's like a message box asking you: "Hey, you just started application 'foo'. Are you really sure you want to do that? I mean *really*?" And if the users says "yes", then it will show another box: "I don't believe you, but I will allow you to do it if you solve the following difficult math problem!" Having desktop firewalls is security theatre. Having 20 levels of false and inappropriate security is worse then having a single level of security that is appropriate for the task. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering Red Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 From mzerqung at 0pointer.de Mon Oct 27 21:27:20 2008 From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:27:20 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <20081027210813.GC5325@victor.nirvana> References: <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <1225137210.14473.95.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <20081027204538.GA5325@victor.nirvana> <20081027205556.GA32156@tango.0pointer.de> <20081027210813.GC5325@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <20081027212720.GB1541@tango.0pointer.de> On Mon, 27.10.08 23:08, Axel Thimm (Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net) wrote: > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 09:55:56PM +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > > But dynamical ports are not new to iptables, lots of protocols, be > > > that rpc, h323 or even p-o-d passive ftp need them and conntrack/pom > > > rectify the `static firewall' view. > > > > But all those protocols start the connection with a well known port > > and then hand things off to a dynamic port. If you use truely random > > ports than iptables needs to sense what kind of protocol something is > > based on the packet contents. Which security-wise is a joke, and > > hence the whole idea makes no sense. > > And there are services that use truely random ports? E.g. w/o any > handshaking or negotiation about these ports by well-defined > processes? Why do we have mDNS/DNS-SD/SSDP for? So you are suggesting that a firewall should automatically whitelist all ports that are announced via mDNS on the network? Wow. That it is certainly one hell of a good idea. Oh my. Are you sure you really understand what "security" means? "Security" certainly doesn't mean whitelisting everything that someone likes to announce on the network via mDNS/DNS-SD. > > > I haven't followed up the latest netfilter developments, but I know > > > there is even a userspace lib for registering such connections. Maybe > > > RB/mDNS and friends just need a pom `plugin'. > > > > The Linux kernel already has an API for that. It's called listen(). > > Cool, so any local non-priviledged process could open up holes in the > firewall above ports 1024 as it pleases w/o the user even noticing. Yes. Absolutely. If he wants to use an app he will circumvent the fw anyway. And hence the fw is pointless and it would be far smoother to allow this kind of operation without nagging. > Why not remove password protection from accounts while we are at it? > ;) Hmm, so you did have a clown for breakfast, didn't you? Lennart -- Lennart Poettering Red Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 From smooge at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 21:29:35 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:29:35 -0600 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> References: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> Message-ID: <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: > On Mon, 27.10.08 17:04, seth vidal (skvidal at fedoraproject.org) wrote: > >> >> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 21:49 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote: >> > > Disabling firewalls on individual systems be they desktops or servers is >> > > a BAD idea. Full stop. >> > >> > That is nonsense. >> > >> > Firewalls on a desktop make no sense, and David is right is that it is >> > a relic and not much more. It's paranoia at best to keep this >> > installed by default. >> >> >> I don't know what kind of desktops you're referring to but desktops are >> the soft-squishy inside that gets large corporate networks in deep >> trouble when there is an border fw breach. This is why it is important >> to have a multi-layered security policy/infrastructure. >> 1. border fw >> 2. host-based fw - including desktops >> 3. deny-all policies at the system level >> 4. well-audited apps that are runnable >> 5. restrictive policies on what can be run at all. >> >> If you want to argue that enhancing the firewall technology that we are >> currently using to allow a more nuanced user-interaction other than 'on' >> or 'off' that's fine by me - but relying on selinux to solve all >> network-border issues seems like the wrong tool for the job. > > You're missing the point. It makes no sense to split items 2-5. If a > user wants to run an application then he will sit down and reconfigure > all the firewalls he has control over until things work for him. (If he is not > capable of that then he will file a bug and cry). And hence, having > those four levels of defense is just pointless. A user will circumvent > that anyway if he wants to run his app. The firewall hence simply > works as an annoying extra step. It's like a message box asking you: > > "Hey, you just started application 'foo'. Are you really sure you > want to do that? I mean *really*?" > > And if the users says "yes", then it will show another box: > > "I don't believe you, but I will allow you to do it if you solve > the following difficult math problem!" > > Having desktop firewalls is security theatre. Having 20 levels of > false and inappropriate security is worse then having a single level > of security that is appropriate for the task. My guess is that having priv-sep, passwords, etc are all security theatre for the desktop user in this case. I mean if application X can't work without me being root then why not be root? If having a password slows me down from getting stuff done, why not remove it. For this level.. why are we doing anything beyond Windows 98 which seems to be the perfect desktop platform. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From mzerqung at 0pointer.de Mon Oct 27 21:48:57 2008 From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:48:57 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081027214856.GC1541@tango.0pointer.de> On Mon, 27.10.08 15:29, Stephen John Smoogen (smooge at gmail.com) wrote: > > Having desktop firewalls is security theatre. Having 20 levels of > > false and inappropriate security is worse then having a single level > > of security that is appropriate for the task. > > My guess is that having priv-sep, passwords, etc are all security > theatre for the desktop user in this case. I mean if application X > can't work without me being root then why not be root? If having a > password slows me down from getting stuff done, why not remove it. For > this level.. why are we doing anything beyond Windows 98 which seems > to be the perfect desktop platform. You are making stupid generalizations here, and you know that. Please don't talk to to me like I was a complete moron or something. In Avahi for example (which I wrote) I went into great lengths to run the code in an environment that is as confined as possible. We use stuff like chroot(), capabilities, we run as seperate user with minimal resource limits and stuff like that, so that even without SELinux an exploited Avahi does not allow attackers to exploit the entire system. In fact, on my F10 system here that runs a lot of stuff in addition to the standard install, Avahi is still the *only* process which does all that security stuff. No other daemon employs chroot() or anything similar. So please, don't tell me I had no clue about how to secure daemons on Linux. Oh, I am not sure if you every wrote anything like that. I'd be very interested to listen to you then. Use the appropriate tools for locking things down. Don't add protection that is bogus because it will be overriden by the user anyway. I am very sure that exactly 0% of all users deactivate all the security techniques that Avahi uses -- because they have no reason to. Because it doesn't limit the use of AVahi in any way -- it doesn't go against what users want to do. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering Red Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 27 22:01:13 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:01:13 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1225144873.8033.59.camel@rosebud> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 15:29 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > O> > >> I don't know what kind of desktops you're referring to but desktops are > >> the soft-squishy inside that gets large corporate networks in deep > >> trouble when there is an border fw breach. This is why it is important > >> to have a multi-layered security policy/infrastructure. > >> 1. border fw > >> 2. host-based fw - including desktops > >> 3. deny-all policies at the system level > >> 4. well-audited apps that are runnable > >> 5. restrictive policies on what can be run at all. > >> > >> If you want to argue that enhancing the firewall technology that we are > >> currently using to allow a more nuanced user-interaction other than 'on' > >> or 'off' that's fine by me - but relying on selinux to solve all > >> network-border issues seems like the wrong tool for the job. > > > > You're missing the point. It makes no sense to split items 2-5. If a > > user wants to run an application then he will sit down and reconfigure > > all the firewalls he has control over until things work for him. (If he is not > > capable of that then he will file a bug and cry). And hence, having > > those four levels of defense is just pointless. A user will circumvent > > that anyway if he wants to run his app. The firewall hence simply > > works as an annoying extra step. It's like a message box asking you: > > > > "Hey, you just started application 'foo'. Are you really sure you > > want to do that? I mean *really*?" > > > > And if the users says "yes", then it will show another box: > > > > "I don't believe you, but I will allow you to do it if you solve > > the following difficult math problem!" > > > > Having desktop firewalls is security theatre. Having 20 levels of > > false and inappropriate security is worse then having a single level > > of security that is appropriate for the task. > > My guess is that having priv-sep, passwords, etc are all security > theatre for the desktop user in this case. I mean if application X > can't work without me being root then why not be root? If having a > password slows me down from getting stuff done, why not remove it. For > this level.. why are we doing anything beyond Windows 98 which seems > to be the perfect desktop platform. > Stephen, Here's the problem. Yours and My experience of users is most likely very different from David's or Lennart's. Our experience is of users who need to do a finite set of tasks for work and/or education. Everything else is either disallowed by policy and/or not supported/ignored. My experience of users is that if you give them a box and a set of rules that the overwhelming majority of them will live in that box quite fine. A handful of the folks who think of themselves as "power users" will bitch and moan and find a way to circumvent the rules. They'll complain to your boss to get you to change the rules just for them, they'll disable whatever they can. That feels a lot more like the user that Lennart and David are describing and it is NOT the users that You and I (and most of the sysadmins all over the world) actually experience. Or when we do experience them it is our penance of telling them no and then telling them no, again. The mistake I've made is thinking that desktop==sysadmin-maintained-desktop. What it seems like Lennart and David are describing is home and/or personal laptop/desktop. It's not for users like you and I think of. It's for people who have chosen to use linux, at home or on a machine they are exclusively in control of. A fairly narrow market from what I can see. -sv From davidz at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 22:01:24 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:01:24 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1225144884.14473.117.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 15:29 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > My guess is that having priv-sep, passwords, etc are all security > theatre for the desktop user in this case. I mean if application X > can't work without me being root then why not be root? If having a > password slows me down from getting stuff done, why not remove it. For > this level.. why are we doing anything beyond Windows 98 which seems > to be the perfect desktop platform. Don't be silly. We want Fedora to be secure by default. Period. If your intention really is to run a DAV server at the next Blackhat conference (where e.g. it will be attacked like crazy), we can confine the used http process to only read from ~/Public. Thus, even if a malicious attacker can run code in the httpd process on your box he can only read ~/Public. He might as well not have bothered then because he could get that content via DAV. Here's the point. A classic firewall that prevents me from sharing files via DAV doesn't really add anything if I really want to share files via DAV. If my OS vendor wants to prevent me from doing that I might as well find another OS vendor. Maybe one that actually spends energy on fixing the root problem (making services secure) instead of papering over the problem (by adding pointless firewalls). Ironically enough Red Hat spends a lot on resources thinking about problems like these and developing technologies like SELinux (for confining processes) and D-Bus (for privilege seperation) to make our software secure. It's too bad we're not doing a good job of actually applying this in products like Fedora. David From davidz at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 22:08:31 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:08:31 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225144884.14473.117.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> <1225144884.14473.117.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1225145311.14473.118.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 18:01 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > Don't be silly. We want Fedora to be secure by default. Period. If your > intention really is to run a DAV server at the next Blackhat conference Btw, this should not be taken as advice. I don't recommend doing it. David From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Oct 27 22:10:07 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:10:07 -0700 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225144884.14473.117.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> <1225144884.14473.117.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1225145408.2157.33.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 18:01 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > Ironically enough Red Hat spends a lot on resources thinking about > problems like these and developing technologies like SELinux (for > confining processes) and D-Bus (for privilege seperation) to make our > software secure. It's too bad we're not doing a good job of actually > applying this in products like Fedora. Isn't that because Fedora is all about the Upstream, and Upstreams just aren't interested in sweeping changes for adding security levels like these? (soooo not helping) -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gnomeuser at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 23:21:09 2008 From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:21:09 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0810271621x135c61b4r21dd6ce91f146c3e@mail.gmail.com> Den 27. okt. 2008 17.00 skrev Paul W. Frields : > > > Who exactly do you believe should be that dictator? > > I, for one, would be happy to push for davidz to be the "desktop dictator", he is passionate about the Linux desktop, informed and willing to work to make the situation better. Additionally he is visionary and has a long track record of bringing improvements to my desktop. Many of the qualities that would be beneficial to such a position as the guiding light in my opinion. That being said, it will probably end up needing to be a small group of people with a transparent workflow, the Linux desktop is a large place, ever expanding to new devices and vistas. It seems unreasonable to assume one person can fully grasp it all but we would still benefit from passionate guidance and a firm plan for the future. Even Linus has subsystem maintainers he trusts to do good work, surely that system will map nicely to the desktop. * This message paid for by the commitee of concerned fedorains in favor of David Zeuthern for grand high poobah * - David Nielsen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidz at redhat.com Tue Oct 28 01:19:17 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:19:17 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0810271621x135c61b4r21dd6ce91f146c3e@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810271621x135c61b4r21dd6ce91f146c3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1225156757.14473.162.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 00:21 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > I, for one, would be happy to push for davidz to be the "desktop > dictator", Thanks for the, uh, endorsement. But I don't think I'm the right person; first of all I've already got a ton of commitments (the mythical dictator position would be a full time job I think), second we probably need someone who's, uh, more, let's just say, more patient and nicer than me on mailing lists (I know I can come across as a real asshole). But I'd be more than happy to keep the dictator(s) honest! Paul W. Frields wrote: > Who exactly do you believe should be that dictator? It's hard to say, I tried to allude in my message that I raised more questions than I answered (and I certainly wasn't pointing to myself for this mythical position). So I think this thread shows we need to figure this out; it's pretty clear that the status quo where the combined desktop livecd product is everyones responsibility (through maintaining their own packages) means that it's no-ones responsibility. We have a lot of low-hanging fruit just *waiting* to be picked up (the firewall problem is one such) but typically such work requires coordination, education and banner carrying across multiple areas both inside and outside the desktop live cd space. Answers on a post card (because I'm leaving on a jet plane early tomorrow). David From gnomeuser at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 01:42:19 2008 From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 02:42:19 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225156757.14473.162.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810271621x135c61b4r21dd6ce91f146c3e@mail.gmail.com> <1225156757.14473.162.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0810271842k6941a8ddt908c12d17870e946@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/28 David Zeuthen > On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 00:21 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > > I, for one, would be happy to push for davidz to be the "desktop > > dictator", > > Thanks for the, uh, endorsement. But I don't think I'm the right person; > first of all I've already got a ton of commitments (the mythical > dictator position would be a full time job I think), second we probably > need someone who's, uh, more, let's just say, more patient and nicer > than me on mailing lists (I know I can come across as a real asshole). > But I'd be more than happy to keep the dictator(s) honest! > No worries, Linus, after whom this idea was molded, isn't exactly known for his diplomacy and people skills either - I think it would be a downright requirement for the post to be sort of dick when called for. I know you are busy and regardless of Fedora ever adopting such a position it's likely there would be a great deal of interaction seeing as all our desktops are belong to hal/devicekit. The reason to make such an endorsement is mostly because whenever such an idea is proposed the only responses seem to go in the direction of the impossibility based on who should be appointed.. giving an example of the qualities such a position would entail seems more productive. - David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 28 02:01:37 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (Mairin Duffy) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:01:37 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225156757.14473.162.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810271621x135c61b4r21dd6ce91f146c3e@mail.gmail.com> <1225156757.14473.162.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <49067281.6010909@fedoraproject.org> David Zeuthen wrote: > So I think this thread shows we need to figure this out; it's pretty > clear that the status quo where the combined desktop livecd product is > everyones responsibility (through maintaining their own packages) means > that it's no-ones responsibility. We have a lot of low-hanging fruit > just *waiting* to be picked up (the firewall problem is one such) but > typically such work requires coordination, education and banner carrying > across multiple areas both inside and outside the desktop live cd space. I'm wondering if it would be useful to hold a Fedora-specific desktop summit type of meeting to first come up with the Fedora-specific desktop vision for the desktop livecd product, then to hash out the projects and their respective work items needed to achieve the vision (or at least a first phase of it.) Post-meeting, I think you would need at least one if not more champions for the whole project (I don't like the term dictator) to keep things moving forward and to motivate the folks working on tasks in the plan. We did something like this for the spins site at the last FUDcon and I think the meeting was really successful in developing a common shared vision for where we wanted to project to go. I think we came into the room having some very different ideas, and walked away from the room in agreement of where we wanted to be. Although that particular project is stalled somewhat because there aren't many people working on it at the moment, because we have that shared vision we do know what we have to do (it's just an issue of time/manpower atm). Is this situation a simple manpower issue? It seems not and, at least looking at this thread, there may not even be a shared vision for the desktop livecd. There appears to be no single vision that is really documented/written out/demonstrated anywhere public (if there is though, great!) There seem to be many that perhaps live only in individual posters' minds. (And when posters write out their visions on this mailing list I find it hard to even focus on the ideas because of the poor / jarringly hostile delivery) I think maybe some kind of vision document would go a long way towards moving forward though. What are our shortcomings now => where we should be. What are the low-hanging fruit you mentioned? Are they listed out or described anywhere? We need a compelling story to tell. Could the ideal Fedora desktop user experience be storyboarded out, maybe have a few storyboards drawn out for scenarios under a few themes, such as security, content sharing, backup/storage, communication, upgrading, etc. Anyway this is just an idea, *please* don't flame me. I am posting this in hope that it might spark some more (hopefully better) ideas for moving forward. Thanks, ~m From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 28 02:43:50 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:43:50 -0400 Subject: Virt* , s-c-display , desktop-effects - Translation submission issues! In-Reply-To: <48FEF504.8030606@redhat.com> References: <48FEF504.8030606@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1225161830.5763.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 15:10 +0530, Ankitkumar Rameshchandra Patel wrote: > > [desktop-effect] > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=438033 I've built compiz with these updated translations now, thanks. From smooge at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 05:50:55 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:50:55 -0600 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225144873.8033.59.camel@rosebud> References: <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> <1225144873.8033.59.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <80d7e4090810272250j14e346d3jc364d0b67bf3c984@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 4:01 PM, seth vidal wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 15:29 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> O> >> >> I don't know what kind of desktops you're referring to but desktops are >> >> the soft-squishy inside that gets large corporate networks in deep >> >> trouble when there is an border fw breach. This is why it is important >> >> to have a multi-layered security policy/infrastructure. >> >> 1. border fw >> >> 2. host-based fw - including desktops >> >> 3. deny-all policies at the system level >> >> 4. well-audited apps that are runnable >> >> 5. restrictive policies on what can be run at all. >> >> >> >> If you want to argue that enhancing the firewall technology that we are >> >> currently using to allow a more nuanced user-interaction other than 'on' >> >> or 'off' that's fine by me - but relying on selinux to solve all >> >> network-border issues seems like the wrong tool for the job. >> > >> > You're missing the point. It makes no sense to split items 2-5. If a >> > user wants to run an application then he will sit down and reconfigure >> > all the firewalls he has control over until things work for him. (If he is not >> > capable of that then he will file a bug and cry). And hence, having >> > those four levels of defense is just pointless. A user will circumvent >> > that anyway if he wants to run his app. The firewall hence simply >> > works as an annoying extra step. It's like a message box asking you: >> > >> > "Hey, you just started application 'foo'. Are you really sure you >> > want to do that? I mean *really*?" >> > >> > And if the users says "yes", then it will show another box: >> > >> > "I don't believe you, but I will allow you to do it if you solve >> > the following difficult math problem!" >> > >> > Having desktop firewalls is security theatre. Having 20 levels of >> > false and inappropriate security is worse then having a single level >> > of security that is appropriate for the task. >> >> My guess is that having priv-sep, passwords, etc are all security >> theatre for the desktop user in this case. I mean if application X >> can't work without me being root then why not be root? If having a >> password slows me down from getting stuff done, why not remove it. For >> this level.. why are we doing anything beyond Windows 98 which seems >> to be the perfect desktop platform. >> > > Stephen, > Here's the problem. Yours and My experience of users is most likely > very different from David's or Lennart's. Our experience is of users who > need to do a finite set of tasks for work and/or education. Everything > else is either disallowed by policy and/or not supported/ignored. > > My experience of users is that if you give them a box and a set of rules > that the overwhelming majority of them will live in that box quite fine. > A handful of the folks who think of themselves as "power users" will > bitch and moan and find a way to circumvent the rules. They'll complain > to your boss to get you to change the rules just for them, they'll > disable whatever they can. That feels a lot more like the user that > Lennart and David are describing and it is NOT the users that You and I > (and most of the sysadmins all over the world) actually experience. Or > when we do experience them it is our penance of telling them no and then > telling them no, again. > > The mistake I've made is thinking that > desktop==sysadmin-maintained-desktop. > > What it seems like Lennart and David are describing is home and/or > personal laptop/desktop. It's not for users like you and I think of. > It's for people who have chosen to use linux, at home or on a machine > they are exclusively in control of. A fairly narrow market from what I > can see. Ah ok. I guess I have spent so much time working on making sure that people aren't sharing stuff on company owned systems... I forget that there would be a reason beyond a torrent during testing for wanting to do it otherwise. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From smooge at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 06:02:38 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:02:38 -0600 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <49067281.6010909@fedoraproject.org> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810271621x135c61b4r21dd6ce91f146c3e@mail.gmail.com> <1225156757.14473.162.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <49067281.6010909@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <80d7e4090810272302m681a0ee6gcad9a69770612969@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Mairin Duffy wrote: > David Zeuthen wrote: >> >> So I think this thread shows we need to figure this out; it's pretty >> clear that the status quo where the combined desktop livecd product is >> everyones responsibility (through maintaining their own packages) means >> that it's no-ones responsibility. We have a lot of low-hanging fruit >> just *waiting* to be picked up (the firewall problem is one such) but >> typically such work requires coordination, education and banner carrying >> across multiple areas both inside and outside the desktop live cd space. > > I'm wondering if it would be useful to hold a Fedora-specific desktop summit > type of meeting to first come up with the Fedora-specific desktop vision for > the desktop livecd product, then to hash out the projects and their > respective work items needed to achieve the vision (or at least a first > phase of it.) Post-meeting, I think you would need at least one if not more > champions for the whole project (I don't like the term dictator) to keep > things moving forward and to motivate the folks working on tasks in the > plan. > > We did something like this for the spins site at the last FUDcon and I think > the meeting was really successful in developing a common shared vision for > where we wanted to project to go. I think we came into the room having some > very different ideas, and walked away from the room in agreement of where we > wanted to be. Although that particular project is stalled somewhat because > there aren't many people working on it at the moment, because we have that > shared vision we do know what we have to do (it's just an issue of > time/manpower atm). > > Is this situation a simple manpower issue? It seems not and, at least > looking at this thread, there may not even be a shared vision for the > desktop livecd. There appears to be no single vision that is really > documented/written out/demonstrated anywhere public (if there is though, > great!) There seem to be many that perhaps live only in individual posters' > minds. (And when posters write out their visions on this mailing list I find > it hard to even focus on the ideas because of the poor / jarringly hostile > delivery) > > I think maybe some kind of vision document would go a long way towards > moving forward though. What are our shortcomings now => where we should be. > What are the low-hanging fruit you mentioned? Are they listed out or > described anywhere? We need a compelling story to tell. Could the ideal > Fedora desktop user experience be storyboarded out, maybe have a few > storyboards drawn out for scenarios under a few themes, such as security, > content sharing, backup/storage, communication, upgrading, etc. > > Anyway this is just an idea, *please* don't flame me. I am posting this in > hope that it might spark some more (hopefully better) ideas for moving > forward. > Well I think the first question is what is a desktop and what do we call them in various environments. My typical environment makes me an ideal candidate for clean widgets, but not for using avahi for anything beyond finding corporate approved printers and file-shares. That isn't what the home user who is looking for another gig of Daily Show episodes wants. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Oct 28 08:00:00 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:00:00 +0200 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <4906C680.8010102@nicubunu.ro> David Zeuthen wrote: > > You are missing the point that the sums of the bits (our product) is > larger than the bits itself (each package). I posited in my original > mail that we can create a better product if we have a dictator (or group > of dictators) that makes decisions. In other words, we need to move away > from the model where every package maintainer maintains his own fiefdom. > It's counter productive to the point that it cripples the product (e.g. > the firewall example I gave earlier). The problem is, this thing with "benevolent dictators" (I really like better Mo's "champions") is not guaranteed to work: if someone just start to act bossy, the unpaid volunteers will ignore him or go elsewhere. Sure, you may get lucky from time to time with an appointed leader (as the recent examples at the Fedora leadership, as opposed to the early years) but usually this role is earned, Linus is followed not only for his technical merits but also for his charisma (he has tons of it), a lot of people believe in him. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From smooge at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 08:24:30 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 02:24:30 -0600 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <20081027214856.GC1541@tango.0pointer.de> References: <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> <20081027214856.GC1541@tango.0pointer.de> Message-ID: <80d7e4090810280124j174ad9b9vc403ba87730975ae@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: > On Mon, 27.10.08 15:29, Stephen John Smoogen (smooge at gmail.com) wrote: > >> > Having desktop firewalls is security theatre. Having 20 levels of >> > false and inappropriate security is worse then having a single level >> > of security that is appropriate for the task. >> >> My guess is that having priv-sep, passwords, etc are all security >> theatre for the desktop user in this case. I mean if application X >> can't work without me being root then why not be root? If having a >> password slows me down from getting stuff done, why not remove it. For >> this level.. why are we doing anything beyond Windows 98 which seems >> to be the perfect desktop platform. > > You are making stupid generalizations here, and you know that. > Lets just say we are talking past each other. I am sorry I got cranky but the people who I am used to making such arguments usually don't use firewalls, don't use any account but root and could care less about passwords. All they consider to conflict with least suprise or some such thing. When trying to design an enteprise solution where you have to argue that their Phd and 30 years of coding means I am the idiot.. I get a little testy. [It used to start that firewalls needed to be off for them, now its selinux, then firewalls, then they need to be UID 0, and then its why do I need screenlocks and passwords?] And then when it goes up the chain they go and find all the references that whatever security issue is not relevant to them which now will include the above emails that firewalls have no place on the desktop since Red Hat people say so. So again, I am sorry I am a cranky stick-in-the-mud here. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From stickster at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 11:44:30 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 07:44:30 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <49067281.6010909@fedoraproject.org> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810271621x135c61b4r21dd6ce91f146c3e@mail.gmail.com> <1225156757.14473.162.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <49067281.6010909@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1225194270.27515.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 22:01 -0400, Mairin Duffy wrote: > David Zeuthen wrote: > > So I think this thread shows we need to figure this out; it's pretty > > clear that the status quo where the combined desktop livecd product is > > everyones responsibility (through maintaining their own packages) means > > that it's no-ones responsibility. We have a lot of low-hanging fruit > > just *waiting* to be picked up (the firewall problem is one such) but > > typically such work requires coordination, education and banner carrying > > across multiple areas both inside and outside the desktop live cd space. > > I'm wondering if it would be useful to hold a Fedora-specific desktop > summit type of meeting to first come up with the Fedora-specific desktop > vision for the desktop livecd product, then to hash out the projects and > their respective work items needed to achieve the vision (or at least a > first phase of it.) Post-meeting, I think you would need at least one if > not more champions for the whole project (I don't like the term > dictator) to keep things moving forward and to motivate the folks > working on tasks in the plan. > > We did something like this for the spins site at the last FUDcon and I > think the meeting was really successful in developing a common shared > vision for where we wanted to project to go. I think we came into the > room having some very different ideas, and walked away from the room in > agreement of where we wanted to be. Although that particular project is > stalled somewhat because there aren't many people working on it at the > moment, because we have that shared vision we do know what we have to do > (it's just an issue of time/manpower atm). [...snip...] We have a FUDCon coming up in January, in Boston where the majority of the Desktop team resides. That would be an ideal location and time for this sort of summit! -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gnomeuser at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 12:22:28 2008 From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:22:28 +0100 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225194270.27515.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810271621x135c61b4r21dd6ce91f146c3e@mail.gmail.com> <1225156757.14473.162.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <49067281.6010909@fedoraproject.org> <1225194270.27515.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0810280522o21cf8507red637fac74f54eff@mail.gmail.com> Den 28. okt. 2008 12.44 skrev Paul W. Frields : > > > We have a FUDCon coming up in January, in Boston where the majority of > the Desktop team resides. That would be an ideal location and time for > this sort of summit! I would be a little concerned with relying to heavily on FUDcon for such work, Fedora is a big project, many contributors spread across the globe, many of whom would probably like their voice heard or have ideas they wish to share. A lot of these people will not be able to go and partake in the talks for simple reasons of time and/or money. Most of the time we don't even get good video or audio of all the proceedings afterwards so it's hard to traceback what the rationale for a decision is or to see what other vistas were explored. As such I would be afraid a high reliance on FUDcon for this work would lead to a lack of transparency in our process. I would hate for this to become Moses coming down from the mountain carrying specs set in stone without accompanying notes. - David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Oct 28 12:25:56 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:25:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0810280522o21cf8507red637fac74f54eff@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810271621x135c61b4r21dd6ce91f146c3e@mail.gmail.com> <1225156757.14473.162.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <49067281.6010909@fedoraproject.org> <1225194270.27515.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810280522o21cf8507red637fac74f54eff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, David Nielsen wrote: > I would be a little concerned with relying to heavily on FUDcon for > such work, Fedora is a big project, many contributors spread across > the globe, many of whom would probably like their voice heard or have > ideas they wish to share. A lot of these people will not be able to go > and partake in the talks for simple reasons of time and/or money. Most > of the time we don't even get good video or audio of all the > proceedings afterwards so it's hard to traceback what the rationale > for a decision is or to see what other vistas were explored. As such I > would be afraid a high reliance on FUDcon for this work would lead to > a lack of transparency in our process. I would hate for this to become > Moses coming down from the mountain carrying specs set in stone > without accompanying notes. Then don't call it a Summit. Call it an "opportunity for the RH Desktop team to talk with some number of the other Fedora people in order to further mutual understanding". :) I think Paul's point is that if some amount of Fedora is going to be right in Red Hat's engineering backyard, where a lot of the RH Desktop team is, that is an opportunity that should be seized to do SOMETHING rather than ignored. --Max From duffy at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 28 13:21:52 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:21:52 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0810280522o21cf8507red637fac74f54eff@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810271621x135c61b4r21dd6ce91f146c3e@mail.gmail.com> <1225156757.14473.162.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <49067281.6010909@fedoraproject.org> <1225194270.27515.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810280522o21cf8507red637fac74f54eff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <490711F0.4040001@fedoraproject.org> David Nielsen wrote: > Den 28. okt. 2008 12.44 skrev Paul W. Frields : > >> >> We have a FUDCon coming up in January, in Boston where the majority of >> the Desktop team resides. That would be an ideal location and time for >> this sort of summit! > > > I would be a little concerned with relying to heavily on FUDcon for such > work, Fedora is a big project, many contributors spread across the globe, > many of whom would probably like their voice heard or have ideas they wish > to share. A lot of these people will not be able to go and partake in the > talks for simple reasons of time and/or money. Most of the time we don't > even get good video or audio of all the proceedings afterwards so it's hard > to traceback what the rationale for a decision is or to see what other > vistas were explored. As such I would be afraid a high reliance on FUDcon > for this work would lead to a lack of transparency in our process. I would > hate for this to become Moses coming down from the mountain carrying specs > set in stone without accompanying notes. I would rather the vision be developed in an open public way than live solely in the mind of some dictator who optionally (as a "bonus") would actually communicate and work with other community members. Unfortunately it isn't possible for everyone who wants to participate to be able to go to a physical meeting, but I know for the spins meeting we did at the last FUDcon we were very careful to make sure we took very good notes [1] and blogged about it as well. Once the story is developed it's easier to tell it and add on to it I think. But developing it is a big step I'm not sure of any better way to get done than a physical brainstorming meeting. ~m [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Spins From dwinship at redhat.com Tue Oct 28 14:01:04 2008 From: dwinship at redhat.com (Dan Winship) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:01:04 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <1225137608.14473.99.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <4905E9E3.8040108@redhat.com> <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225137111.8033.35.camel@rosebud> <1225137608.14473.99.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <49071B20.5050203@redhat.com> David Zeuthen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 15:51 -0400, seth vidal wrote: >> We have a number of applications that end of listening on random ports. >> At which point the system is vulnerable (or sometimes just the user) is >> vulnerable to whatever those daemons are vulnerable to. > > The solution here would be to confine these daemons with SELinux >> If the process needs to be able to listen on an external port then that >> needs to be enabled separately. You don't just turn off all the rules as >> a solution. > > However, I'd argue that people end up doing this anyway. Yes, and I suspect a large percentage of the people who are turning off the firewall because it keeps them from getting work done are also turning off SELinux because it keeps them from getting work done. So... -- Dan From stickster at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 14:23:48 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:23:48 +0000 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <490711F0.4040001@fedoraproject.org> References: <64b14b300810270416s10dfd617tf5c08938cff3c26c@mail.gmail.com> <1225107895.3516.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1225117524.14473.35.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225123213.2795.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810271621x135c61b4r21dd6ce91f146c3e@mail.gmail.com> <1225156757.14473.162.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <49067281.6010909@fedoraproject.org> <1225194270.27515.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1dedbbfc0810280522o21cf8507red637fac74f54eff@mail.gmail.com> <490711F0.4040001@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1225203828.27515.87.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 09:21 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > David Nielsen wrote: > > Den 28. okt. 2008 12.44 skrev Paul W. Frields : > > > >> > >> We have a FUDCon coming up in January, in Boston where the majority of > >> the Desktop team resides. That would be an ideal location and time for > >> this sort of summit! > > > > > > I would be a little concerned with relying to heavily on FUDcon for such > > work, Fedora is a big project, many contributors spread across the globe, > > many of whom would probably like their voice heard or have ideas they wish > > to share. A lot of these people will not be able to go and partake in the > > talks for simple reasons of time and/or money. Most of the time we don't > > even get good video or audio of all the proceedings afterwards so it's hard > > to traceback what the rationale for a decision is or to see what other > > vistas were explored. As such I would be afraid a high reliance on FUDcon > > for this work would lead to a lack of transparency in our process. I would > > hate for this to become Moses coming down from the mountain carrying specs > > set in stone without accompanying notes. > > I would rather the vision be developed in an open public way > than live solely in the mind of some dictator who optionally > (as a "bonus") would actually communicate and work with > other community members. > > Unfortunately it isn't possible for everyone who wants to > participate to be able to go to a physical meeting, but I > know for the spins meeting we did at the last FUDcon we were > very careful to make sure we took very good notes [1] and > blogged about it as well. > > Once the story is developed it's easier to tell it and add > on to it I think. But developing it is a big step I'm not > sure of any better way to get done than a physical > brainstorming meeting. > > ~m > > [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Spins Hear, hear. We have to keep in mind that conversations that happen at FUDCon aren't closed universes where there's no input beforehand and no follow-up afterward. They are a good place to collect a lot of input *representative* of the community at one time, quickly and without the equally (albeit differently) obtrusive communication methods of email and IRC. After one of these group meetings, organizers should (and do) carry those conversations to the larger community for more comment and direction. This *did* work very well with the spins meeting, and as Mo writes, that meeting was well documented and conducted in an extremely open and transparent way. The people who attend FUDCon are a highly representative cross-section of the community at large, with viewpoints across the board on a variety of issues. Getting that spectrum of opinion documented at one of these meetings is a very effective way of moving Fedora forward, but always with an eye toward allowing people everywhere to add dimensions to the discussion as we go. Announcing FUDCon sessions in advance also gives everyone, attending or not, the opportunity to discuss key issues before the actual physical meeting. That's exactly why, if there's a desire to promote a more targeted desktop spin, we're suggesting the teams involved make that sort of commitment or announcement now. That way, the community can fully participate as much as it desires, and those teams can collect input as needed to have a fruitful session at FUDCon. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 19:20:40 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:20:40 -0800 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090810280124j174ad9b9vc403ba87730975ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> <20081027214856.GC1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810280124j174ad9b9vc403ba87730975ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910810281220m3e5a8378v7637e4e0c653e3a2@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > When trying to design an enteprise solution where you > have to argue that their Phd and 30 years of coding means I am the > idiot.. I get a little testy. Sorry. I build a time machine in about 10 years, then go back in time and take a job where you work just so I can annoy you. I only just found out, because my future-self just called me telling me what I'm going to do to you. Appearently all of this was done to get back at you for bumping into me, making me spill my coffee on myself at a FUDCon in like a year or two. Seems I really hold grudges. -jef"you dont even buy me a new cup of coffee either..."spaleta From smooge at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 19:56:54 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:56:54 -0600 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <604aa7910810281220m3e5a8378v7637e4e0c653e3a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> <20081027214856.GC1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810280124j174ad9b9vc403ba87730975ae@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910810281220m3e5a8378v7637e4e0c653e3a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090810281256y791d1563haa0ca68533216476@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> When trying to design an enteprise solution where you >> have to argue that their Phd and 30 years of coding means I am the >> idiot.. I get a little testy. > > Sorry. I build a time machine in about 10 years, then go back in time > and take a job where you work just so I can annoy you. I only just > found out, because my future-self just called me telling me what I'm > going to do to you. Appearently all of this was done to get back at > you for bumping into me, making me spill my coffee on myself at a > FUDCon in like a year or two. Seems I really hold grudges. > > -jef"you dont even buy me a new cup of coffee either..."spaleta > Hmmm thats must not be me. I usually give coffee away. It must have been my clone again. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From stickster at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 21:10:58 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:10:58 -0400 Subject: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090810281256y791d1563haa0ca68533216476@mail.gmail.com> References: <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> <20081027214856.GC1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810280124j174ad9b9vc403ba87730975ae@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910810281220m3e5a8378v7637e4e0c653e3a2@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090810281256y791d1563haa0ca68533216476@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1225228258.27515.190.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 13:56 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > >> When trying to design an enteprise solution where you > >> have to argue that their Phd and 30 years of coding means I am the > >> idiot.. I get a little testy. > > > > Sorry. I build a time machine in about 10 years, then go back in time > > and take a job where you work just so I can annoy you. I only just > > found out, because my future-self just called me telling me what I'm > > going to do to you. Appearently all of this was done to get back at > > you for bumping into me, making me spill my coffee on myself at a > > FUDCon in like a year or two. Seems I really hold grudges. > > > > -jef"you dont even buy me a new cup of coffee either..."spaleta > > > > Hmmm thats must not be me. I usually give coffee away. It must have > been my clone again. A lot can happen in a few years, apparently. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 00:12:29 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 01:12:29 +0100 Subject: Updated Solar Backgrounds Package Message-ID: <1225325549.2717.20.camel@pc-notebook> Hi, I've just built an updated Solar Backgrounds Package with many fixes provided by Mo, and more resolutions/ratios [1]. As per request from both gnome and kde folks the package has been split into solar-backgrounds (for Desktop Live Spin) solar-backgrounds-common (for KDE) and solar-backgrounds-extras (containing everything not included in the previous two). Since we are in freeze already (sorry for it, we could not make it in time) and the packages are rather big, I'd like you to test it first before I request a freeze break. You can d/l from koji [1]. Please report any problems, preferably on fedora-art-list or by mail to me directly. If no serious problems/regressions are reported, I'll request a freeze break at Friday. Thanks, Martin References: [1] https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=68050 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 30 02:47:29 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (Mairin Duffy) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:47:29 -0400 Subject: Updated Solar Backgrounds Package In-Reply-To: <1225325549.2717.20.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1225325549.2717.20.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <49092041.7040407@fedoraproject.org> Hi Martin, Martin Sourada wrote: > If no serious problems/regressions are reported, I'll request a freeze > break at Friday. Jesse said he really needs this ASAP, so I think we should get it to him tomorrow morning. He's on West Coast US time so that will give us a few more hours for folks to review but then I think we should just push it out. Hopefully we will have an opportunity to fix any other bugs as a result of preview release feedback. Thanks so much for getting this done so quickly, it's a real lifesaver! ~m From martin.sourada at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 09:17:06 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:17:06 +0100 Subject: Updated Solar Backgrounds Package In-Reply-To: <49092041.7040407@fedoraproject.org> References: <1225325549.2717.20.camel@pc-notebook> <49092041.7040407@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1225358226.2668.5.camel@pc-notebook> On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 22:47 -0400, Mairin Duffy wrote: > Hi Martin, > Hi M?ir?n, > Martin Sourada wrote: > > If no serious problems/regressions are reported, I'll request a freeze > > break at Friday. > > Jesse said he really needs this ASAP, so I think we should get it to him > tomorrow morning. He's on West Coast US time so that will give us a few > more hours for folks to review but then I think we should just push it > out. Hopefully we will have an opportunity to fix any other bugs as a > result of preview release feedback. > > Thanks so much for getting this done so quickly, it's a real lifesaver! > Kevin already found a error there (1280x1024 having only 1014 height) and built a fixed package [1]. I'll request the freeze break then. Martin References: [1] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=68083 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 30 13:37:16 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:37:16 -0400 Subject: Updated Solar Backgrounds Package In-Reply-To: <1225358226.2668.5.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1225325549.2717.20.camel@pc-notebook> <49092041.7040407@fedoraproject.org> <1225358226.2668.5.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <4909B88C.3000300@fedoraproject.org> Hi Kevin, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 22:47 -0400, Mairin Duffy wrote: >> Hi Martin, >> > Hi M?ir?n, > >> Martin Sourada wrote: >>> If no serious problems/regressions are reported, I'll request a freeze >>> break at Friday. >> Jesse said he really needs this ASAP, so I think we should get it to him >> tomorrow morning. He's on West Coast US time so that will give us a few >> more hours for folks to review but then I think we should just push it >> out. Hopefully we will have an opportunity to fix any other bugs as a >> result of preview release feedback. >> >> Thanks so much for getting this done so quickly, it's a real lifesaver! >> > Kevin already found a error there (1280x1024 having only 1014 height) > and built a fixed package [1]. I'll request the freeze break then. THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! :) ~m From nils at redhat.com Thu Oct 30 15:31:25 2008 From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:31:25 +0100 Subject: Firewalls and inter-team communication, was: Browser mode for nautilus In-Reply-To: <20081027214856.GC1541@tango.0pointer.de> References: <1225126695.14473.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <64b14b300810271104q7ef00b27hc21c46521827fe79@mail.gmail.com> <1225131238.14473.59.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225133403.8033.28.camel@rosebud> <1225134992.14473.74.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <1225135512.8033.31.camel@rosebud> <20081027204924.GA29373@tango.0pointer.de> <1225141454.8033.50.camel@rosebud> <20081027211919.GA1541@tango.0pointer.de> <80d7e4090810271429r1f58cc2cjda8538828e6ead9b@mail.gmail.com> <20081027214856.GC1541@tango.0pointer.de> Message-ID: <1225380685.10115.2.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com> Hi all, I've added fedora-devel-list to Cc as this topic isn't really limited to the desktop. On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 22:48 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote: > On Mon, 27.10.08 15:29, Stephen John Smoogen (smooge at gmail.com) wrote: > > > > Having desktop firewalls is security theatre. Having 20 levels of > > > false and inappropriate security is worse then having a single level > > > of security that is appropriate for the task. > > > > My guess is that having priv-sep, passwords, etc are all security > > theatre for the desktop user in this case. I mean if application X > > can't work without me being root then why not be root? If having a > > password slows me down from getting stuff done, why not remove it. For > > this level.. why are we doing anything beyond Windows 98 which seems > > to be the perfect desktop platform. > > You are making stupid generalizations here, and you know that. > > Please don't talk to to me like I was a complete moron or > something. In Avahi for example (which I wrote) I went into great > lengths to run the code in an environment that is as confined as > possible. We use stuff like chroot(), capabilities, we run as seperate > user with minimal resource limits and stuff like that, so that even > without SELinux an exploited Avahi does not allow attackers to exploit > the entire system. > > In fact, on my F10 system here that runs a lot of stuff in addition to > the standard install, Avahi is still the *only* process which does > all that security stuff. No other daemon employs chroot() or anything > similar. So please, don't tell me I had no clue about how to secure > daemons on Linux. A bit off-topic for what's really my concern with this mail, but anyway: that's probably because chroot() is seen by many as not being a security tool(*), i.e. it's giving a false sense of security that should be avoided, which would be consistent with comments made in this thread. (*): In short: If the process can or is run as root, it can escape a chroot "jail", if it's running as a normal user, it can't really do the bad things a chroot environment would inhibit. What I find a bit puzzling is that many people in this thread made comments about the firewall being broken (or breaking something on the desktop), but nobody thought about maybe inviting the iptables package maintainer to this discussion. I happen to know him and if one -- depending on the POV -- might accuse him of not being exactly open minded for all proposals coming out of the desktop corner, it's probably because he'd rather err on the side of caution than be sorry later. In general I'd very much suggest, when it comes to things that affect areas other than one's own, to involve the affected persons or teams early on in the discussion. If one discusses such matters only in one's own "cabal" -- and I'm using that word with care, because that's exactly how it's come across in a few instances -- and if one only after the discussion is over presents something fait-accompli style to the rest of the world, it very much begs for being shot down. Let me compare this to casting concrete when parts of it have already begun setting, the result surely won't be stable or homogenous. The reason for that is quite simple, it basically boils down to that nobody is super-human: We all make mistakes. To a certain degree, we tend to concentrate on the stuff we're most experienced with and miss things in other areas. Likewise, more often than not we put more priority on issues that more visibly affect our own turf than on other things and neglect how our own approach to a certain problem is detrimental in other use cases. We all occasionally can't see the wood for the trees. > Use the appropriate tools for locking things down. Don't add > protection that is bogus because it will be overriden by the user > anyway. I am very sure that exactly 0% of all users deactivate all the > security techniques that Avahi uses -- because they have no reason > to. Because it doesn't limit the use of AVahi in any way -- it doesn't > go against what users want to do. Just as a side note, you've very carefully left out people disabling avahi because it broke other things. Right on cue just this week, a colleague disabled avahi on a server where its adding a route into the 169.something auto-IP network made it unreachable in the network, maybe because that machine (for security reasons) didn't have a default gateway. The machine in question is RHEL5, so any misbehavior on part of avahi may be fixed by now, but this is still a good example for a component unintentionally breaking basic functionality because its possible impacts in "out of scope" use scenarios weren't fully assessed. Needless to say that the colleague didn't ask for avahi to be installed (it doesn't make much sense on a server), it got dragged in by dependencies. But I'm digressing: My plea for this week would be that we'd all begin to look a bit more beyond our own noses and get to the point where involving other people and teams right away becomes the norm, instead of trying to circumvent the (perceived or not) shortcomings of components or areas for which these others are really responsible. Nils -- Nils Philippsen "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase Red Hat a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nils at redhat.com nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Oct 30 21:02:55 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:02:55 -0700 Subject: Fedora 10 Preview live size Message-ID: <1225400575.27779.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> Here is a diff to snap3, we've grown a bit. I do believe we're going to save some space on the solar stuff due to some splitting, but not sure how much that's going to save us: old has 989 packages new has 992 packages Growths: fedora-release-notes grew by 5370866 (37.59%) (14289838->19660704) fedora-logos grew by 699195 (59.03%) (1184567->1883762) gnome-packagekit grew by 280423 (5.04%) (5567592->5848015) sound-theme-freedesktop grew by 167772 (22.82%) (735044->902816) gstreamer-plugins-good grew by 146895 (5.41%) (2716290->2863185) system-config-firewall-tui grew by 110536 (6.14%) (1801412->1911948) gnome-panel grew by 102566 (1.07%) (9571877->9674443) PackageKit grew by 60422 (5.85%) (1033655->1094077) libwnck grew by 43592 (2.93%) (1487337->1530929) firstboot grew by 35566 (5.63%) (632064->667630) createrepo grew by 29548 (16.21%) (182298->211846) chkconfig grew by 29373 (4.90%) (599326->628699) mlocate grew by 27631 (15.28%) (180838->208469) libsndfile grew by 22388 (3.44%) (650994->673382) NetworkManager-glib grew by 16588 (5.78%) (286932->303520) libmtp grew by 14281 (3.13%) (456497->470778) NetworkManager-gnome grew by 12671 (1.45%) (871254->883925) gpgme grew by 11663 (1.66%) (704403->716066) telepathy-gabble grew by 9152 (1.34%) (681096->690248) gnome-menus grew by 8716 (1.28%) (681574->690290) libnetfilter_conntrack grew by 8256 (8.06%) (102486->110742) xorg-x11-drv-vmmouse grew by 6787 (41.47%) (16365->23152) PackageKit-yum grew by 6327 (2.00%) (317094->323421) PackageKit-glib grew by 5437 (1.80%) (302339->307776) system-config-boot grew by 4111 (2.72%) (151180->155291) PackageKit-udev-helper grew by 2397 (2.03%) (118211->120608) PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin grew by 2397 (1.86%) (128875->131272) PackageKit-yum-plugin grew by 2397 (2.00%) (120003->122400) libv4l grew by 2194 (1.27%) (172824->175018) obex-data-server grew by 2087 (1.04%) (201266->203353) anacron grew by 984 (1.78%) (55398->56382) libasyncns grew by 713 (1.41%) (50439->51152) Shrinkage: libgnome shrank by 997888 (33.44%) (3981635->2983747) yum shrank by 216318 (8.25%) (2839577->2623259) setroubleshoot-plugins shrank by 50255 (1.26%) (4030899->3980644) comps-extras shrank by 4580 (8.20%) (60427->55847) New packages: compat-db45: 2993619 plymouth-plugin-solar: 463693 iok: 93521 scim-rawcode: 49460 m17n-contrib-sinhala: 19016 m17n-db-sinhala: 14513 htmlview: 9526 m17n-contrib-urdu: 3733 Removed packages: compat-db: 8651457 xorg-x11-apps: 554390 ncurses: 253128 gstreamer-plugins-pulse: 92414 plymouth-plugin-spinfinity: 32477 -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rstrode at redhat.com Thu Oct 30 21:21:38 2008 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:21:38 -0400 Subject: Fedora 10 Preview live size In-Reply-To: <1225400575.27779.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1225400575.27779.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1225401698.23637.3.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 14:02 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > Here is a diff to snap3, we've grown a bit. How big are we total? Are we over? > > I do believe we're going to save some space on the solar stuff due to > some splitting, but not sure how much that's going to save us: Should be significant enough to sway the size of things, so would be good to know before putting much more effort into downsizing. --Ray From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Oct 30 21:43:02 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:43:02 -0700 Subject: Fedora 10 Preview live size In-Reply-To: <1225401698.23637.3.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <1225400575.27779.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1225401698.23637.3.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1225402982.27779.8.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 17:21 -0400, Ray Strode wrote: > On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 14:02 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > Here is a diff to snap3, we've grown a bit. > > How big are we total? Are we over? Whoops, yeah, we're at 707M > > > > I do believe we're going to save some space on the solar stuff due to > > some splitting, but not sure how much that's going to save us: > Should be significant enough to sway the size of things, so would be good > to know before putting much more effort into downsizing. > > --Ray > I'll know more tomorrow once we get stuff built up from things we tagged today. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 30 21:55:19 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrcKtbiBEdWZmeQ==?=) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:55:19 -0400 Subject: Fedora 10 Preview live size In-Reply-To: <1225402982.27779.8.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1225400575.27779.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1225401698.23637.3.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> <1225402982.27779.8.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <490A2D47.30704@fedoraproject.org> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 17:21 -0400, Ray Strode wrote: >> On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 14:02 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: >>> Here is a diff to snap3, we've grown a bit. >> How big are we total? Are we over? > > Whoops, yeah, we're at 707M > >>> I do believe we're going to save some space on the solar stuff due to >>> some splitting, but not sure how much that's going to save us: >> Should be significant enough to sway the size of things, so would be good >> to know before putting much more effort into downsizing. >> >> --Ray >> > > I'll know more tomorrow once we get stuff built up from things we tagged > today. It looks like the solar plymouth theme is taking up a lot. I wonder if the graphics from it could be run thru optipng? The same with the gfx from the fedora-logos package. I can try to see what I can squeeze out of the fedora-logos package when I get home tonight. ~m From martin.sourada at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 22:01:16 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 23:01:16 +0100 Subject: Fedora 10 Preview live size In-Reply-To: <1225402982.27779.8.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1225400575.27779.6.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1225401698.23637.3.camel@halfline-d630.boston.devel.redhat.com> <1225402982.27779.8.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1225404076.2630.14.camel@pc-notebook> On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 14:43 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 17:21 -0400, Ray Strode wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 14:02 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > > > > I do believe we're going to save some space on the solar stuff due to > > > some splitting, but not sure how much that's going to save us: > > Should be significant enough to sway the size of things, so would be good > > to know before putting much more effort into downsizing. > > > > --Ray > > > > I'll know more tomorrow once we get stuff built up from things we tagged > today. > solar-backgrounds (~39 MB) has been split into solar-backgrounds (for Desktop Live, ~12 MB), solar-backgrounds-common (for KDE, ~5.4 MB) and solar-backgrounds-extras (lots of extra sizes, ~79 MB), so Desktop Live should shrink roughly by 27 MB. 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