From luya at fedoraproject.org Mon Sep 1 08:47:13 2008 From: luya at fedoraproject.org (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 01:47:13 -0700 Subject: [Echo] Need feedback about Features Echo Icon theme Message-ID: <48BBAC11.7050309@fedoraproject.org> --------------070606010609090800080209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have updated the feature session for Echo in order to get reviewed by Fesco. I am also sent a copy to desktop list. Feedback is welcome Luya Reference: --------------- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/EchoIconTheme --------------070606010609090800080209 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC45IChH TlUvTGludXgpCkNvbW1lbnQ6IFVzaW5nIEdudVBHIHdpdGggRmVkb3JhIC0gaHR0cDovL2Vu aWdtYWlsLm1vemRldi5vcmcKCmlFWUVBUkVDQUFZRkFraTdxNGtBQ2drUWExMEpiME5PeitI L2ZnQ2VPSmpmem5zWEhKT3FFc1lraXZVRkoxNEgKb21jQW9KYktGKy9yL3dPS0d4WmU2RXRu dFBhcXpvQjIKPTJVRUkKLS0tLS1FTkQgUEdQIFNJR05BVFVSRS0tLS0tCgo= --------------070606010609090800080209-- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 259 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From tomkis at hotmail.co.uk Wed Sep 3 13:25:49 2008 From: tomkis at hotmail.co.uk (Tomasz Kisielewski) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 14:25:49 +0100 Subject: [Echo] Need feedback about Features Echo Icon theme In-Reply-To: <48BBAC11.7050309@fedoraproject.org> References: <48BBAC11.7050309@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: Hi I think it looks fine, pdf icon isn't in 3D and trash bin on panel is still full of rubbish, but except these things everything is OK. Well done Tom ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 01:47:13 -0700 > From: luya at fedoraproject.org > To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > Subject: [Echo] Need feedback about Features Echo Icon theme > > --------------070606010609090800080209 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > I have updated the feature session for Echo in order to get reviewed by > Fesco. > I am also sent a copy to desktop list. Feedback is welcome > > Luya > > Reference: > --------------- > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/EchoIconTheme > > > > --------------070606010609090800080209 > Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; > name="signature.asc" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > Content-Disposition: inline; > filename="signature.asc" > > LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC45IChH > TlUvTGludXgpCkNvbW1lbnQ6IFVzaW5nIEdudVBHIHdpdGggRmVkb3JhIC0gaHR0cDovL2Vu > aWdtYWlsLm1vemRldi5vcmcKCmlFWUVBUkVDQUFZRkFraTdxNGtBQ2drUWExMEpiME5PeitI > L2ZnQ2VPSmpmem5zWEhKT3FFc1lraXZVRkoxNEgKb21jQW9KYktGKy9yL3dPS0d4WmU2RXRu > dFBhcXpvQjIKPTJVRUkKLS0tLS1FTkQgUEdQIFNJR05BVFVSRS0tLS0tCgo= > --------------070606010609090800080209-- _________________________________________________________________ Make a mini you and download it into Windows Live Messenger http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354029/direct/01/ From luya at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 5 05:47:39 2008 From: luya at fedoraproject.org (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 01:47:39 -0400 Subject: Good news about Echo Message-ID: <1220593659.48c0c7fbb75ed@ssl.mecca.ca> Fesco has accepted echo-icon-theme as default icon theme for Fedora 10.[1] Which means we need to push harder to include as many icons as possible using guideline and echo-artist tool now available on rawhide and is waiting for people to get them on both Fedora 8 and 9[2]. To get more details about echo-icon-theme, please visit the website[3]. References: ----------- [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/10/FeatureList [2] https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/search/echo-artist [3] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme -- Luya Tshimbalanga Fedora Project contributor P.S: a little bit surprised but this news feel like a award. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 5 06:56:16 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 12:26:16 +0530 Subject: Good news about Echo In-Reply-To: <1220593659.48c0c7fbb75ed@ssl.mecca.ca> References: <1220593659.48c0c7fbb75ed@ssl.mecca.ca> Message-ID: <48C0D810.1050207@fedoraproject.org> Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > Fesco has accepted echo-icon-theme as default icon theme for Fedora 10.[1] > Which means we need to push harder to include as many icons as possible using > guideline and echo-artist tool now available on rawhide and is waiting for > people to get them on both Fedora 8 and 9[2]. To get more details about > echo-icon-theme, please visit the website[3]. Good move. Was comps.xml updated to reflect the new default in rawhide? Any communication with the desktop and kde teams? Rahul From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Sep 5 13:35:06 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 09:35:06 -0400 Subject: Good news about Echo In-Reply-To: <48C0D810.1050207@fedoraproject.org> References: <1220593659.48c0c7fbb75ed@ssl.mecca.ca> <48C0D810.1050207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1220621706.4220.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-09-05 at 12:26 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > > Fesco has accepted echo-icon-theme as default icon theme for Fedora 10.[1] > > Which means we need to push harder to include as many icons as possible using > > guideline and echo-artist tool now available on rawhide and is waiting for > > people to get them on both Fedora 8 and 9[2]. To get more details about > > echo-icon-theme, please visit the website[3]. > > Good move. > > Was comps.xml updated to reflect the new default in rawhide? Any > communication with the desktop and kde teams? I'm here... So, I think we need to act quickly to make Echo the default for the beta, to test the waters before F10. For Gnome, the way to do that is to change the inheritance of the Fedora icon theme to pull in Echo instead of Mist. Wrt to coverage, I have worked pretty hard this cycle to make Gnome use icon-naming-spec names wherever possible, so things should be good as long as Echo has near-100% coverage for a) icon-naming spec b) GTK+ stock icons c) application icons that show up in the menus of the default install I can look into doing the fedora-icon-theme change. Matthias From rdieter at math.unl.edu Sat Sep 6 04:57:04 2008 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 23:57:04 -0500 Subject: Good news about Echo References: <1220593659.48c0c7fbb75ed@ssl.mecca.ca> <48C0D810.1050207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: >> Fesco has accepted echo-icon-theme as default icon theme for Fedora >> 10.[1] Which means we need to push harder to include as many icons as >> possible using guideline and echo-artist tool now available on rawhide >> and is waiting for people to get them on both Fedora 8 and 9[2]. To get >> more details about echo-icon-theme, please visit the website[3]. > Any > communication with the desktop and kde teams? For the latter, no, unfortunately. A welcome development, but a bit of a surprise. -- Rex From martin.sourada at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 15:08:21 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 17:08:21 +0200 Subject: [Echo] Icons that need to be done - update In-Reply-To: <1220791757.3158.14.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1220791757.3158.14.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1220800102.3180.7.camel@pc-notebook> On Sun, 2008-09-07 at 14:49 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote: > Hi, > > I've put together first version of a list of icons that need to be done > to fill the gaps in icon naming specs and I'm going to look into Desktop > Live Spin to see which of them are actually displayed there. I attach > the list and will transfer it gradually to wiki together with the check > of what is *really* needed. > > Of course, this list contains only icons from specs, but if you feel > there are other icons we need finished for F10 let us know and we'll > expand the list if needed. > > Thanks, > Martin OK, checked on F9 Desktop Live and transferred to wiki [1]. In numbers, we need to create about 28 new icons and will probably need to rework another 16 icons which totals up to 44 icons (these numbers are correct, unless I missed some important icon or did some miscalculation...). Note: the action icons might not be that important to create since we use similar projection to gnome-icon-theme to which we fall-back. Martin CC-ing fedora-desktop-list since they might be interested in checking the list if it is complete. References: [1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/ToDo/BaseSet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From al3xand3r.d at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 19:21:07 2008 From: al3xand3r.d at gmail.com (Alexander Dimitriou) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:21:07 +0300 Subject: Ability to post to the fedora-desktop-list Message-ID: al3xand3r.d at gmail.com From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Sep 22 06:41:02 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:11:02 +0530 Subject: Desktop team meetings? Message-ID: <48D73DFE.20401@fedoraproject.org> Hi, Is the desktop team meeting on a weekly basis like it used to? Rahul From davidz at redhat.com Mon Sep 22 18:20:26 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:20:26 -0400 Subject: Desktop team meetings? In-Reply-To: <48D73DFE.20401@fedoraproject.org> References: <48D73DFE.20401@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1222107626.3848.5.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 12:11 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > Is the desktop team meeting on a weekly basis like it used to? No, there's no weekly meetings anymore; we had a weekly meeting for a while but it wasn't very useful. Or at least that's my view. I'd say just use the #fedora-desktop IRC channel on GimpNet, it's where all the desktop related stuff happens. David From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Sep 22 23:11:49 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 04:41:49 +0530 Subject: Desktop team meetings? In-Reply-To: <1222107626.3848.5.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <48D73DFE.20401@fedoraproject.org> <1222107626.3848.5.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <48D82635.6040705@fedoraproject.org> David Zeuthen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 12:11 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Is the desktop team meeting on a weekly basis like it used to? > > No, there's no weekly meetings anymore; we had a weekly meeting for a > while but it wasn't very useful. Or at least that's my view. I'd say > just use the #fedora-desktop IRC channel on GimpNet, it's where all the > desktop related stuff happens. Given that Fedora desktop specific discussions do get taken and not much of it in this list, the benefit of having a designated time for meeting on irc and discussing plans is to allow people to participate more. Even if you do have to hang around on a IRC channel all day, you wouldn't be able to follow the discussions there 24/7. It is probably more convenient to sit in a room and talk if everyone is in the same place but forcing yourself to do irc instead gives the rest of the interested folks a better understanding even if they are not involved on a regular basis. Rahul From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Sep 22 23:24:38 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:24:38 -0400 Subject: Desktop team meetings? In-Reply-To: <48D82635.6040705@fedoraproject.org> References: <48D73DFE.20401@fedoraproject.org> <1222107626.3848.5.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <48D82635.6040705@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1222125878.15195.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 04:41 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > David Zeuthen wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 12:11 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> Is the desktop team meeting on a weekly basis like it used to? > > > > No, there's no weekly meetings anymore; we had a weekly meeting for a > > while but it wasn't very useful. Or at least that's my view. I'd say > > just use the #fedora-desktop IRC channel on GimpNet, it's where all the > > desktop related stuff happens. > > Given that Fedora desktop specific discussions do get taken and not much > of it in this list, the benefit of having a designated time for meeting > on irc and discussing plans is to allow people to participate more. Even > if you do have to hang around on a IRC channel all day, you wouldn't be > able to follow the discussions there 24/7. > > It is probably more convenient to sit in a room and talk if everyone is > in the same place but forcing yourself to do irc instead gives the rest > of the interested folks a better understanding even if they are not > involved on a regular basis. You apparently didn't read what David said: There's no need to force any of us to use irc, we're pretty much available 24/7 in #fedora-desktop on GimpNet. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Sep 22 23:55:05 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 05:25:05 +0530 Subject: Desktop team meetings? In-Reply-To: <1222125878.15195.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <48D73DFE.20401@fedoraproject.org> <1222107626.3848.5.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <48D82635.6040705@fedoraproject.org> <1222125878.15195.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <48D83059.1090706@fedoraproject.org> Matthias Clasen wrote: > > You apparently didn't read what David said: There's no need to force any > of us to use irc, we're pretty much available 24/7 in #fedora-desktop on > GimpNet. This availability helps for casual discussions but it is not possible for anybody to follow the discussions that happen there 24/7. Having a predesignated particular time on regular intervals to make decisions means that others can hope to participate more when the conversations happen. It is the difference between hallway conversations and team meetings. This worked out very well other SIG's. Also #fedora-desktop is the only irc channel that is in gimpnet instead of freenode. It would be better to move to freenode like all the other channels. Rahul From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 00:56:57 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:56:57 -0700 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD Message-ID: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> I'm less concerned about x86_64 for Beta, but i686 not fitting on a CD is a stop ship. We're 43~megs over size. That's not a small amount. This may have been brought up before, but I don't see archives of it so it may have been IRC only. http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/alpha2beta-live-diff has a listing of the package differences between Alpha and Beta. I would really appreciate some help looking for something to cut for size, since you guys are supposed to own this config now. http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-live-base.ks;h=55f57cf0a7ebf60326c5eabf968b0d4b2dfd4975;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-livecd-desktop.ks;h=371ad17a34667b60fe0fab63a3e9876245c7da9e;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta and http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-livecd-desktop-default.ks;h=e7a91937f1eb87df3d5197f6ea6cf2918ca986fb;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta are the configs used. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 01:08:33 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:08:33 -0700 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 17:56 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/alpha2beta-live-diff has a listing of > the package differences between Alpha and Beta. I would really > appreciate some help looking for something to cut for size, since you > guys are supposed to own this config now. Herm. this may actually be a diff of the Education-Math live image to the Alpha Desktop image. I made a mistake somewhere. I'm re-creating the Desktop image, although they share many of the same packages. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 02:27:10 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:27:10 -0700 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 18:08 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 17:56 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/alpha2beta-live-diff has a listing of > > the package differences between Alpha and Beta. I would really > > appreciate some help looking for something to cut for size, since you > > guys are supposed to own this config now. > > Herm. this may actually be a diff of the Education-Math live image to > the Alpha Desktop image. I made a mistake somewhere. I'm re-creating > the Desktop image, although they share many of the same packages. I fixed the diff. It is now correct, and we're still 43 megs oversize. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 23 02:51:59 2008 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 22:51:59 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1222138319.9573.3.camel@truman> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 19:27 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 18:08 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 17:56 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/alpha2beta-live-diff has a listing of > > > the package differences between Alpha and Beta. I would really > > > appreciate some help looking for something to cut for size, since you > > > guys are supposed to own this config now. > > > > Herm. this may actually be a diff of the Education-Math live image to > > the Alpha Desktop image. I made a mistake somewhere. I'm re-creating > > the Desktop image, although they share many of the same packages. > > I fixed the diff. It is now correct, and we're still 43 megs oversize. If empathy didn't have a hard requires on some of it's plugins, like telepathy-haze (which pulls in libpurple) that would drop 20MB or more. IMO, the only hard-requires for empathy should probably be telepathy-gabble (XMMP) & telepathy-salut (local-link XMMP), the rest we should give a hard look at what we want to use a default in comps to reduce some of the bloat. Later, /B -- Brian Pepple https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bpepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 03:07:13 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 23:07:13 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1222139233.15195.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 19:27 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 18:08 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 17:56 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/alpha2beta-live-diff has a listing of > > > the package differences between Alpha and Beta. I would really > > > appreciate some help looking for something to cut for size, since you > > > guys are supposed to own this config now. > > > > Herm. this may actually be a diff of the Education-Math live image to > > the Alpha Desktop image. I made a mistake somewhere. I'm re-creating > > the Desktop image, although they share many of the same packages. > > I fixed the diff. It is now correct, and we're still 43 megs oversize. An easy win is to exclude gnome-games-help. From davidz at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 03:44:46 2008 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 23:44:46 -0400 Subject: Desktop team meetings? In-Reply-To: <48D83059.1090706@fedoraproject.org> References: <48D73DFE.20401@fedoraproject.org> <1222107626.3848.5.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <48D82635.6040705@fedoraproject.org> <1222125878.15195.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48D83059.1090706@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1222141486.3848.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 05:25 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > This availability helps for casual discussions but it is not possible > for anybody to follow the discussions that happen there 24/7. Nice try trying to imply that the conversations on #fedora-desktop "casual talk". They're not. > Having a > predesignated particular time on regular intervals to make decisions > means that others can hope to participate more when the conversations > happen. It is the difference between hallway conversations and team > meetings. This worked out very well other SIG's. I repeat: It's my experience, and I believe others as well, that just having the IRC channel and a low-traffic list like fedora-desktop-list works just fine. Again, I don't think any weekly meeting would be useful; if people want to get involved (and I'd encourage that), it's very easy: use this mailing list or use the IRC channel. I'm sorry if that makes it complicated for people who only wants to "participate" in "decision making" at some weekly meeting without actually doing any work or otherwise get involved. But it's probably better that way. > Also #fedora-desktop is the only irc channel that is in gimpnet instead > of freenode. I think the question of why #fedora-desktop is on gimpnet has come up before so I'll try to repeat what I think the reason was: it's more important to stay close to the upstream channels; it does happen, rather frequently in fact, that people from other GNOME distros pop into #fedora-desktop to ask questions or that people working on Fedora desktop summon people to #fedora-desktop. We'd lose part of that synergy if we were on freenode. (Of course, needless to point out, we're also currently losing out on making it harder for Fedora non-GNOME people to participate on #fedora-desktop. However, that's a trade-off I'm comfortable with given we ask people to get involved upstream and not downstream.) > It would be better to move to freenode like all the other > channels. Nice try: you almost trick the reader into believing the only channels worth anything are on Freenode and use that as the reason for moving #fedora-desktop to freenode. There's a nice Latin term for this kind of fallacy, try looking it up! Good luck, David From peter at thecodergeek.com Tue Sep 23 03:57:09 2008 From: peter at thecodergeek.com (Peter Gordon) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:57:09 -0700 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222138319.9573.3.camel@truman> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222138319.9573.3.camel@truman> Message-ID: <1222142229.3054.6.camel@tuxhugs> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 22:51 -0400, Brian Pepple wrote: > If empathy didn't have a hard requires on some of it's plugins, like > telepathy-haze (which pulls in libpurple) that would drop 20MB or more. > IMO, the only hard-requires for empathy should probably be > telepathy-gabble (XMMP) & telepathy-salut (local-link XMMP), the rest we > should give a hard look at what we want to use a default in comps to > reduce some of the bloat. I do agree that this adds a hefty chunk of size to the image; but if we do not keep the Haze and other telepathy stack components in it, then it becomes a severe regression from previous releases' Live images, which I'd also dislike to have happen. :-/ The gnome-games-help package is fairly big for this (nearly half of what we need to free up); is this strictly required for the LiveCD? --Peter -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 23 04:18:05 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:48:05 +0530 Subject: Desktop team meetings? In-Reply-To: <1222141486.3848.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> References: <48D73DFE.20401@fedoraproject.org> <1222107626.3848.5.camel@x61.fubar.dk> <48D82635.6040705@fedoraproject.org> <1222125878.15195.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48D83059.1090706@fedoraproject.org> <1222141486.3848.55.camel@x61.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <48D86DFD.3020507@fedoraproject.org> David Zeuthen wrote: > On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 05:25 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> This availability helps for casual discussions but it is not possible >> for anybody to follow the discussions that happen there 24/7. > > Nice try trying to imply that the conversations on #fedora-desktop > "casual talk". They're not. The distinction I am making is in between organized meeting vs impromptu (which i referred to as casual) conversations that invariably happen in irc channels. > I'm sorry if that makes it complicated for people who only wants to > "participate" in "decision making" at some weekly meeting without > actually doing any work or otherwise get involved. But it's probably > better that way. There is a difference betweeen active participants who make decisions and others who merely want to be informed. Weekly meetings help more of the latter. When people feel more informed, a smaller percentage of that would become more active participants over time or atleast that is what I have seen happen in other SIG's. >> It would be better to move to freenode like all the other >> channels. > > Nice try: you almost trick the reader into believing the only channels > worth anything are on Freenode and use that as the reason for moving > #fedora-desktop to freenode. There's a nice Latin term for this kind of > fallacy, try looking it up! > > Good luck, Nothing of that sort. All the Fedora channels except for #fedora-desktop are in Freenode. That statement of fact makes no judgement about the value of other irc servers whatsoever. If have already considered the balance between the disconnect of Fedora channels vs closer interactions with upstream and want to stick with your decisions, be my guest. Rahul From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 23 04:21:09 2008 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:21:09 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222142229.3054.6.camel@tuxhugs> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222138319.9573.3.camel@truman> <1222142229.3054.6.camel@tuxhugs> Message-ID: <1222143669.9573.17.camel@truman> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 20:57 -0700, Peter Gordon wrote: > On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 22:51 -0400, Brian Pepple wrote: > > If empathy didn't have a hard requires on some of it's plugins, like > > telepathy-haze (which pulls in libpurple) that would drop 20MB or more. > > IMO, the only hard-requires for empathy should probably be > > telepathy-gabble (XMMP) & telepathy-salut (local-link XMMP), the rest we > > should give a hard look at what we want to use a default in comps to > > reduce some of the bloat. > > I do agree that this adds a hefty chunk of size to the image; but if we > do not keep the Haze and other telepathy stack components in it, then it > becomes a severe regression from previous releases' Live images, which > I'd also dislike to have happen. :-/ That's why I said we should look at what to include in the comps, and not put hard requires in the spec. ;) And there *are* going to be regressions in features even with tp-haze. Empathy won't be able to do things like file-transfers, etc, that Pidgin currently supports. Later, /B -- Brian Pepple https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bpepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From peter at thecodergeek.com Tue Sep 23 04:40:11 2008 From: peter at thecodergeek.com (Peter Gordon) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:40:11 -0700 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222143669.9573.17.camel@truman> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222138319.9573.3.camel@truman> <1222142229.3054.6.camel@tuxhugs> <1222143669.9573.17.camel@truman> Message-ID: <1222144811.6842.2.camel@tuxhugs> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 00:21 -0400, Brian Pepple wrote: > That's why I said we should look at what to include in the comps, and > not put hard requires in the spec. ;) > Hmm; but if we put it in comps, it's still going to be included anyway; so in terms of saving space I don't really a difference, tbh. > And there *are* going to be regressions in features even with tp-haze. > Empathy won't be able to do things like file-transfers, etc, that Pidgin > currently supports. Well, regressions are an unfortunate necessity sometimes; but when they can be readily minimized, I'd prefer that be the case. ;) -- Peter Gordon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 23 05:01:58 2008 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:01:58 -0400 Subject: Empathy Connection Managers (was Re: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD) In-Reply-To: <1222144811.6842.2.camel@tuxhugs> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222138319.9573.3.camel@truman> <1222142229.3054.6.camel@tuxhugs> <1222143669.9573.17.camel@truman> <1222144811.6842.2.camel@tuxhugs> Message-ID: <1222146118.9573.30.camel@truman> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 21:40 -0700, Peter Gordon wrote: > On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 00:21 -0400, Brian Pepple wrote: > > That's why I said we should look at what to include in the comps, and > > not put hard requires in the spec. ;) > > > Hmm; but if we put it in comps, it's still going to be included anyway; > so in terms of saving space I don't really a difference, tbh. Only if it's marked as default, and I'm saying we should be evaluating what connection managers to mark as default. If it turns out that we do want to use tp-haze as a default, I'm not really seeing what big advantage we are getting by switching to Empathy as our default IM client. Later, /B -- Brian Pepple https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bpepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ajax at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 14:09:41 2008 From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:09:41 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1222178981.15981.373.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 17:56 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > I'm less concerned about x86_64 for Beta, but i686 not fitting on a CD > is a stop ship. We're 43~megs over size. That's not a small amount. > This may have been brought up before, but I don't see archives of it so > it may have been IRC only. > > http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/alpha2beta-live-diff has a listing of > the package differences between Alpha and Beta. I would really > appreciate some help looking for something to cut for size, since you > guys are supposed to own this config now. > > http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-live-base.ks;h=55f57cf0a7ebf60326c5eabf968b0d4b2dfd4975;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta > > http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-livecd-desktop.ks;h=371ad17a34667b60fe0fab63a3e9876245c7da9e;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta > > and > > http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-livecd-desktop-default.ks;h=e7a91937f1eb87df3d5197f6ea6cf2918ca986fb;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta > > are the configs used. Not that it's much by way of disk size, but it looks like a lot of the X libs got measurably bigger for no particularly good reason. libXrandr, for example, got almost 40% bigger purely because the ChangeLog in %doc got three times bigger. Do we care that much about including these? I can't see that they're worth much even on a real system. In related news, the rpm changelog for initscripts is over 100k and goes back to 1997, which does affect disk size since the live image includes a real rpmdb. glibc is even worse at about 120k, though it only goes back to 2000. - ajax -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 23 14:12:10 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:12:10 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222178981.15981.373.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222178981.15981.373.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1222179130.4144.9.camel@rosebud> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 10:09 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: > On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 17:56 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > I'm less concerned about x86_64 for Beta, but i686 not fitting on a CD > > is a stop ship. We're 43~megs over size. That's not a small amount. > > This may have been brought up before, but I don't see archives of it so > > it may have been IRC only. > > > > http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/alpha2beta-live-diff has a listing of > > the package differences between Alpha and Beta. I would really > > appreciate some help looking for something to cut for size, since you > > guys are supposed to own this config now. > > > > http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-live-base.ks;h=55f57cf0a7ebf60326c5eabf968b0d4b2dfd4975;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta > > > > http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-livecd-desktop.ks;h=371ad17a34667b60fe0fab63a3e9876245c7da9e;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta > > > > and > > > > http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-livecd-desktop-default.ks;h=e7a91937f1eb87df3d5197f6ea6cf2918ca986fb;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta > > > > are the configs used. > > Not that it's much by way of disk size, but it looks like a lot of the X > libs got measurably bigger for no particularly good reason. libXrandr, > for example, got almost 40% bigger purely because the ChangeLog in > %doc got three times bigger. > > Do we care that much about including these? I can't see that they're > worth much even on a real system. > > In related news, the rpm changelog for initscripts is over 100k and goes > back to 1997, which does affect disk size since the live image includes > a real rpmdb. glibc is even worse at about 120k, though it only goes > back to 2000. > I believe new versions of rpm will allow us to drop out all but the latest N changelogs. I know that the changelog metadata that createrepo produces now allows us to limit the changelogs we pass along in the xml metadata to the latest N, as well. I think we should keep the changelogs around in the spec files but not pass around any but say the last 10 inside the actual rpm. -sv From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Sep 23 16:23:08 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:23:08 +0200 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222144811.6842.2.camel@tuxhugs> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222138319.9573.3.camel@truman> <1222142229.3054.6.camel@tuxhugs> <1222143669.9573.17.camel@truman> <1222144811.6842.2.camel@tuxhugs> Message-ID: <48D917EC.1070407@kanarip.com> Peter Gordon wrote: > On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 00:21 -0400, Brian Pepple wrote: >> That's why I said we should look at what to include in the comps, and >> not put hard requires in the spec. ;) >> > Hmm; but if we put it in comps, it's still going to be included anyway; > so in terms of saving space I don't really a difference, tbh. > No, it's not. It can be pulled in due to being in a comps group, and then be excluded from the compose in the kickstart package manifests, whereas with hard requires trying to remove the dep will result in a failed compose. -Jeroen From walters at verbum.org Tue Sep 23 16:47:24 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:47:24 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222138319.9573.3.camel@truman> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222138319.9573.3.camel@truman> Message-ID: 2008/9/22 Brian Pepple : > > If empathy didn't have a hard requires on some of it's plugins, like > telepathy-haze (which pulls in libpurple) that would drop 20MB or more. > IMO, the only hard-requires for empathy should probably be > telepathy-gabble (XMMP) & telepathy-salut (local-link XMMP), the rest we > should give a hard look at what we want to use a default in comps to > reduce some of the bloat. That would make it basically only useful for GTalk users which has significant market share only in North America and parts of the Middle East[1]. I don't think there is any kind of upstream story for how you install plugins outside of dropping to a terminal and using yum/apt-get either. [1] http://billionsconnected.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/global_im_market_share_stats_july_08.pdf From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 23 16:53:59 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:53:59 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222138319.9573.3.camel@truman> Message-ID: <1222188839.4144.20.camel@rosebud> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 12:47 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > 2008/9/22 Brian Pepple : > > > > If empathy didn't have a hard requires on some of it's plugins, like > > telepathy-haze (which pulls in libpurple) that would drop 20MB or more. > > IMO, the only hard-requires for empathy should probably be > > telepathy-gabble (XMMP) & telepathy-salut (local-link XMMP), the rest we > > should give a hard look at what we want to use a default in comps to > > reduce some of the bloat. > > That would make it basically only useful for GTalk users which has > significant market share only in North America and parts of the Middle > East[1]. s/GTalk/all jabber users/ and since we're all about open protocols anyway. And since xmpp is the most widely accepted open IM protocol (in fact it might be the only one that's actually open).... -sv From walters at verbum.org Tue Sep 23 17:40:53 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:40:53 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222178981.15981.373.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222178981.15981.373.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: 2008/9/23 Adam Jackson : > > Not that it's much by way of disk size, but it looks like a lot of the X > libs got measurably bigger for no particularly good reason. libXrandr, > for example, got almost 40% bigger purely because the ChangeLog in > %doc got three times bigger. > > Do we care that much about including these? I can't see that they're > worth much even on a real system. Agree. One possibility if there is resistance to simply dropping them is to move them into the -devel packages. From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 19:06:24 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:06:24 -0700 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 17:56 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > I'm less concerned about x86_64 for Beta, but i686 not fitting on a CD > is a stop ship. We're 43~megs over size. That's not a small amount. > This may have been brought up before, but I don't see archives of it so > it may have been IRC only. > > http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/alpha2beta-live-diff has a listing of > the package differences between Alpha and Beta. I would really > appreciate some help looking for something to cut for size, since you > guys are supposed to own this config now. > > http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-live-base.ks;h=55f57cf0a7ebf60326c5eabf968b0d4b2dfd4975;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta > > http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-livecd-desktop.ks;h=371ad17a34667b60fe0fab63a3e9876245c7da9e;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta > > and > > http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob;f=fedora-livecd-desktop-default.ks;h=e7a91937f1eb87df3d5197f6ea6cf2918ca986fb;hb=refs/heads/F-10-Beta > > are the configs used. > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list Some progress. We're down to 23megs or so over. mclasen had a few things to suggest and I did a test compose with it. New diff and other info in the releng ticket https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/824 -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From walters at verbum.org Tue Sep 23 19:11:29 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:11:29 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: 2008/9/23 Jesse Keating : > > Some progress. We're down to 23megs or so over. mclasen had a few > things to suggest and I did a test compose with it. New diff and other > info in the releng ticket > > https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/824 Speaking of releng tickets, any thoughts on moving https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/764 forward? I hope with that we can both avoid last-minute surprises like this and make how the images are produced more transparent and consistent. From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 19:16:36 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:16:36 -0700 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1222197396.4108.80.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 15:11 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > Speaking of releng tickets, any thoughts on moving > https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/764 forward? I hope with that > we can both avoid last-minute surprises like this and make how the > images are produced more transparent and consistent. There has been some progress, we have some resources to use now, and some space to put things. Getting it automated is going to be looked at after beta. That said, making a Live image is dirt simple. It requires a rawhide system, and some disk space. That's it. Given that the desktop team owns the config for this (so I'm told) it would interest your team in at least doing some manually or requesting some done manually as we near deadlines (before rather than after..) (: -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ajax at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 19:30:23 2008 From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:30:23 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1222198223.15981.422.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 12:06 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > Some progress. We're down to 23megs or so over. mclasen had a few > things to suggest and I did a test compose with it. New diff and other > info in the releng ticket > > https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/824 I don't see a diff here? - ajax -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From walters at verbum.org Tue Sep 23 19:32:06 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:32:06 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222197396.4108.80.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222197396.4108.80.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: 2008/9/23 Jesse Keating : > On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 15:11 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: >> Speaking of releng tickets, any thoughts on moving >> https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/764 forward? I hope with that >> we can both avoid last-minute surprises like this and make how the >> images are produced more transparent and consistent. > > There has been some progress, we have some resources to use now, and > some space to put things. Getting it automated is going to be looked at > after beta. > > That said, making a Live image is dirt simple. It requires a rawhide > system, and some disk space. That's it. Given that the desktop team > owns the config for this (so I'm told) it would interest your team in at > least doing some manually or requesting some done manually as we near > deadlines (before rather than after..) (: I had spent a bit of time on it a few weeks ago which resulted in the gnome-games-help split and a few other bits but - I agree; we dropped (or at least weren't watching) the ball on this lately. I do think going forward the right way to approach this is going to be systemic changes like changelog/%doc and even longer term localized distribution rather than cutting functionality. But I'll take another look today to see whether there are some localized changes that can be made. From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 19:41:16 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:41:16 -0700 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222198223.15981.422.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222198223.15981.422.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1222198876.4108.81.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 15:30 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: > On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 12:06 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > Some progress. We're down to 23megs or so over. mclasen had a few > > things to suggest and I did a test compose with it. New diff and other > > info in the releng ticket > > > > https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/824 > > I don't see a diff here? Oops, I hit preview instead of commit. Reload please. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 23 21:26:02 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 02:56:02 +0530 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222197396.4108.80.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222197396.4108.80.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <48D95EEA.9000400@fedoraproject.org> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 15:11 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: >> Speaking of releng tickets, any thoughts on moving >> https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/764 forward? I hope with that >> we can both avoid last-minute surprises like this and make how the >> images are produced more transparent and consistent. > > There has been some progress, we have some resources to use now, and > some space to put things. Getting it automated is going to be looked at > after beta. > > That said, making a Live image is dirt simple. It requires a rawhide > system, and some disk space. That's it. Given that the desktop team > owns the config for this (so I'm told) it would interest your team in at > least doing some manually or requesting some done manually as we near > deadlines (before rather than after..) (: Since I am playing around with spinning images all the time, I can help with this. If desktop team thinks my participation would be useful, let me know. Rahul From walters at verbum.org Tue Sep 23 21:31:19 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:31:19 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <48D95EEA.9000400@fedoraproject.org> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222197396.4108.80.camel@luminos.localdomain> <48D95EEA.9000400@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Since I am playing around with spinning images all the time, I can help with > this. If desktop team thinks my participation would be useful, let me know. Definitely - any help is appreciated. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 23 21:35:17 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:05:17 +0530 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222197396.4108.80.camel@luminos.localdomain> <48D95EEA.9000400@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48D96115.6090709@fedoraproject.org> Colin Walters wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: >> Since I am playing around with spinning images all the time, I can help with >> this. If desktop team thinks my participation would be useful, let me know. > > Definitely - any help is appreciated. Is there any place where I can upload images after I create them for wider testing? Is there restrictions on where I can compose them? Should I be de-branding the images? Rahul From walters at verbum.org Tue Sep 23 21:39:54 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:39:54 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <48D96115.6090709@fedoraproject.org> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222197396.4108.80.camel@luminos.localdomain> <48D95EEA.9000400@fedoraproject.org> <48D96115.6090709@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Colin Walters wrote: >> >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Rahul Sundaram >> wrote: >>> >>> Since I am playing around with spinning images all the time, I can help >>> with >>> this. If desktop team thinks my participation would be useful, let me >>> know. >> >> Definitely - any help is appreciated. > > Is there any place where I can upload images after I create them for wider > testing? Is there restrictions on where I can compose them? Should I be > de-branding the images? Well, my ideal on this would be that we land the infrastructure for automatically creating them daily or even more frequently, and then we work on committing changes to the kickstart file via peer review. To help with size issues in particular I don't see a need to distribute the result - it should be enough to describe the change+patch ("moved help files into separately downloadable package", "use bzip2 on changelogs", etc) here. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 23 21:51:01 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:21:01 +0530 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222196784.4108.78.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222197396.4108.80.camel@luminos.localdomain> <48D95EEA.9000400@fedoraproject.org> <48D96115.6090709@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48D964C5.30901@fedoraproject.org> Colin Walters wrote: > Well, my ideal on this would be that we land the infrastructure for > automatically creating them daily or even more frequently, and then we > work on committing changes to the kickstart file via peer review. This would be ideal but I am not sure waiting for it is really the right thing to do. As a side note, OpenSUSE, Ubuntu etc are doing more intermediate alpha and beta releases than Fedora does. We should be considering that. Ubuntu is doing daily builds of images as well. > To help with size issues in particular I don't see a need to > distribute the result - it should be enough to describe the > change+patch ("moved help files into separately downloadable package", > "use bzip2 on changelogs", etc) here. I think, if we are generating images on a more regular basis, we should be doing more than just checking the size. There is a valuable opportunity for integration testing from the wider community and getting more earlier feedback on experimental changes such as swapping Pidgin with Empathy. This however requires distributing the composed images. The problems I see with it are these: 1) Bandwidth and disk space 2) How do you trust and verify composes done outside the Fedora infrastructure? 3) Branding conflicts with unofficial composes Rahul From notting at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 21:53:26 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:53:26 -0400 Subject: Echo vs the destkop Message-ID: <20080923215326.GA25920@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the experience given. Is that the case? Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons - an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock icons and the perspective of the main menu logo It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm using (24) much worse than the prior icons. Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system icons provided by Echo? Bill From mccann at jhu.edu Tue Sep 23 22:27:05 2008 From: mccann at jhu.edu (William Jon McCann) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:27:05 -0400 Subject: Echo vs the destkop In-Reply-To: <20080923215326.GA25920@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080923215326.GA25920@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <939dd5750809231527n41562b06r4ec4e534720eae49@mail.gmail.com> Hi Bill, On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the > assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the > Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the > experience given. Is that the case? No. > Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: > > - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus > (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) > - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons > - an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock > icons and the perspective of the main menu logo > > It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm > using (24) much worse than the prior icons. > > Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the > Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system > icons provided by Echo? I strongly disagree with the decision to use the Echo icon theme. For one, there is simply not enough time before Fedora 10 to fix the problems that you point out. There is also the fact that the quality of the artwork is noticeably lower than the upstream GNOME and Tango icon themes. In my opinion, we should: 1. Not use the Echo icons for Fedora 10 2. Encourage Fedora artists to become involved with the upstream GNOME and Tango artist communities Thanks, Jon From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 23:03:14 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:03:14 -0400 Subject: Echo vs the destkop In-Reply-To: <48D971FE.6080409@linuxgrrl.com> References: <20080923215326.GA25920@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750809231527n41562b06r4ec4e534720eae49@mail.gmail.com> <48D971FE.6080409@linuxgrrl.com> Message-ID: <1222210994.4803.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 18:47 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > I had thought Matthias volunteered to serve as the Desktop team > representative. He had outlined a plan here which is what the Echo folks > have been following: > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-September/msg00044.html I'm the last desktop team member on fedora-art-list, but I'm not a representative, and I have no way to reconcile the wildly varying opinions inside the desktop team when it comes to style and quality of the default icon theme. From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 06:05:06 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:05:06 +0200 Subject: Echo vs the destkop In-Reply-To: <20080923215326.GA25920@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20080923215326.GA25920@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1222236306.3185.4.camel@pc-notebook> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 17:53 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the > assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the > Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the > experience given. Is that the case? > No, they weren't OK with the current coverage (at least Matthias Clasen) and we are working hard to improve it. > Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see: > > - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus > (echo, 'stock', bluecurve) With Mist, there are still new gnome styled icons, old gnome styled icons and bluecurve. In some places we reduced the old gnome and bluecurve to minimum, in others not yet. Check the System -> Administration menu as an example. > - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons > - an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock > icons and the perspective of the main menu logo > > It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm > using (24) much worse than the prior icons. > > Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the > Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system > icons provided by Echo? > Yep. If you feel some particular icon is missing, it's need-to-have and is not on our todo [1], feel free to ping us about it. > Bill > Our general idea is that some time around the final freeze it will be decided by art and desktop teams whether we are ready. If not, echo will be pulled back and submitted again for F11. I'd be for voting, enabled for art and desktop fas groups members regarding this issue. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Sep 24 06:23:52 2008 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:23:52 +0300 Subject: Echo vs the destkop In-Reply-To: <1222210994.4803.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20080923215326.GA25920@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750809231527n41562b06r4ec4e534720eae49@mail.gmail.com> <48D971FE.6080409@linuxgrrl.com> <1222210994.4803.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <48D9DCF8.7030500@nicubunu.ro> Matthias Clasen wrote: > > I'm the last desktop team member on fedora-art-list, but I'm not a > representative, and I have no way to reconcile the wildly varying > opinions inside the desktop team when it comes to style and quality of > the default icon theme. But I promise you, we don't bite... I invite more people from the desktop team to the art list, we are doing a lot of things related to the desktop so your input would be really useful. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 11:06:40 2008 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:06:40 +0200 Subject: Echo vs the destkop In-Reply-To: <1222236306.3185.4.camel@pc-notebook> References: <20080923215326.GA25920@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1222236306.3185.4.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1222254400.3476.1.camel@pc-notebook> > Yep. If you feel some particular icon is missing, it's need-to-have and > is not on our todo [1], feel free to ping us about it. > Sorry, I forgot to add reference: [1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/ToDo/BaseSet Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From walters at verbum.org Wed Sep 24 17:04:14 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:04:14 -0400 Subject: ks changes: Add maintainership link, remove sendmail, autofs, gnome-games-help Message-ID: Please review. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 0001-Add-maintainership-link-remove-sendmail-autofs-gnom.patch Type: text/x-patch Size: 1009 bytes Desc: not available URL: From walters at verbum.org Wed Sep 24 21:41:31 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:41:31 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: 2008/9/22 Jesse Keating : > On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 18:08 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: >> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 17:56 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: >> > http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/alpha2beta-live-diff has a listing of >> > the package differences between Alpha and Beta. I would really >> > appreciate some help looking for something to cut for size, since you >> > guys are supposed to own this config now. >> >> Herm. this may actually be a diff of the Education-Math live image to >> the Alpha Desktop image. I made a mistake somewhere. I'm re-creating >> the Desktop image, although they share many of the same packages. > > I fixed the diff. It is now correct, and we're still 43 megs oversize. I spent a bit more time looking at this and am concluding we're dying the death of a lot of < 0.5meg cuts. Aside from our old friends, fonts: new package un-core-fonts-batang: 12971087 new package un-core-fonts-dotum: 7769083 new package un-core-fonts-gungseo: 6294199 new package un-core-fonts-dinaru: 3108519 I'm not qualified to evaluate these. Can someone with experience in localization evaluate whether the GNOME desktop coverage is enough to warrant shipping them? What I'm currently thinking is that the install image needs to be enough to bootstrap to a richer experience such as office tools or a development environment. We need some sort of post-install process that fills out the system with the parts we couldn't fit in the live image, and also suggests things such as OpenOffice. I think the right way to do this is comps; I'll take a look at how we might do this with PackageKit. From notting at redhat.com Thu Sep 25 16:06:52 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:06:52 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080925160652.GA16054@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: > I spent a bit more time looking at this and am concluding we're dying > the death of a lot of < 0.5meg cuts. Aside from our old friends, > fonts: > new package un-core-fonts-batang: 12971087 > new package un-core-fonts-dotum: 7769083 > new package un-core-fonts-gungseo: 6294199 > new package un-core-fonts-dinaru: 3108519 > > I'm not qualified to evaluate these. Can someone with experience in > localization evaluate whether the GNOME desktop coverage is enough to > warrant shipping them? They're all Korean fonts, which certainly seems to be well translated. Bill From walters at verbum.org Thu Sep 25 19:55:59 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:55:59 -0400 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: <20080925160652.GA16054@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20080925160652.GA16054@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: >> I spent a bit more time looking at this and am concluding we're dying >> the death of a lot of < 0.5meg cuts. Aside from our old friends, >> fonts: >> new package un-core-fonts-batang: 12971087 >> new package un-core-fonts-dotum: 7769083 >> new package un-core-fonts-gungseo: 6294199 >> new package un-core-fonts-dinaru: 3108519 >> >> I'm not qualified to evaluate these. Can someone with experience in >> localization evaluate whether the GNOME desktop coverage is enough to >> warrant shipping them? > > They're all Korean fonts, which certainly seems to be well translated. Ok - then a followup question is: do we need all of them? Who owns the comps sets for $lang-support? Adding fedora-i18n-list and fedora-fonts-list to CC - if you guys are able to cut any of the fonts, particularly the larger ones it would help us greatly. From caolanm at redhat.com Thu Sep 25 19:49:05 2008 From: caolanm at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Caol=E1n?= McNamara) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:49:05 +0100 Subject: i686 (and likely x86_64) Live image not fitting on CD In-Reply-To: References: <1222131417.4108.55.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222132113.4108.56.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1222136830.4108.57.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1222372145.3763.73.camel@vain.rhgalway> On Wed, 2008-09-24 at 17:41 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > I spent a bit more time looking at this and am concluding we're dying > the death of a lot of < 0.5meg cuts. > We need some sort of post-install process that fills out the system with > the parts we couldn't fit in the live image Playing around earlier, I see that locale -a |grep -F _ |cut -d _ -f 1 | sort -u|wc -l says that glibc supports 137 language identifiers, munging all variants of a language together as one. So if we had 100% coverage of all localizations throughout our stack, and disregarded any differences between all Spanish, English, etc. variants. and disregarded the size of any actual software on the cd, that gives < 6 megs available per language :-) And FWIW as a random reference point from F9 du -ch /usr/share/gnome/help/*/de comes to 5.5M with just... ekiga eog fedora-release-notes file-roller gcalctool gedit gnome-applets gnome-games gnome-netstatus gnome-panel gnome-terminal gnome-user-docs gucharmap rhythmbox sound-juicer system-config-date system-config-services system-config-users tomboy totem C.