From stickster at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 00:13:08 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:13:08 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <1249084553.2762.35.camel@localhost> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1249076204.1512.15.camel@planemask> <1249084553.2762.35.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090801001308.GA26495@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 01:55:53AM +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > Am Freitag, den 31.07.2009, 17:36 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 15:35 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) said: > > > > Hey all, > > > > > > > > we've been discussing the idea of changing the default GTK+/Metacity > > > > theme in F12. Nodoka has been the default for a while, and it seems to > > > > undergo a major rework now ( http://mso-chronicles.blogspot.com/ ). > > > > > > > > We don't want to do a radical visual change, though. The idea is to go > > > > back to the upstream default, Clearlooks. > > >From what I see the change in Nodoka is not that radical, even if Martin > started from scratch. A change to Clearlooks would be IMO more radical - > and more boring. > > Nodoka has become a characteristic of Fedora, it's developed by a Fedora > member inside the Project. I think we should stick with Nodoka, at > least for F12. There will be no major changes and we can decide again > for F13 about whether we follow Martins approach or go somewhere else. [...snip...] I agree, but I think Martin is amenable to fixing minor annoyances so let's see a list of what those are, and explore fixing them for F12. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From walters at verbum.org Sat Aug 1 00:36:45 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 00:36:45 +0000 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <1249084553.2762.35.camel@localhost> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1249076204.1512.15.camel@planemask> <1249084553.2762.35.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:55 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote: > >> ?e.g. get rid >> of some small annoyances in the current default theme, such as the >> dotted lines in treeviews. > > I like them. If they annoy you, file a bug or turn them off as Martin > already wrote. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on the theme, but did we talk to Martin to see what he thinks about concerns raised with the current theme and his planned visual changes and if he'd be willing to adjust? From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Sat Aug 1 00:44:22 2009 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:44:22 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <1249084553.2762.35.camel@localhost> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1249076204.1512.15.camel@planemask> <1249084553.2762.35.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1249087462.9293.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 01:55 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > >From what I see the change in Nodoka is not that radical, even if Martin > started from scratch. A change to Clearlooks would be IMO more radical - > and more boring. > > Nodoka has become a characteristic of Fedora, it's developed by a Fedora > member inside the Project. I think we should stick with Nodoka, at > least for F12. There will be no major changes and we can decide again > for F13 about whether we follow Martins approach or go somewhere else. Yeah, my vote would be to keep Nodoka also. Later, /B -- Brian Pepple identi.ca: http://identi.ca/bpepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Sat Aug 1 00:52:21 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:52:21 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <1249084553.2762.35.camel@localhost> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1249076204.1512.15.camel@planemask> <1249084553.2762.35.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1249087941.1512.59.camel@planemask> On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 01:55 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > > Nodoka has become too important for Fedora and Martin has put much work > in it, so we shouldn't just throw it all away. Not to belittle Martins work, but I don't think Nodoka has the significance that you are trying to imply here. It is just a decent gray theme, based on other gray themes. If we switched to another one, most people wouldn't notice. And if they did, they wouldn't think 'pity Fedora dropped Nodoka' since they would have no idea what Nodoka is. Anyway, I will try to come up with some more changes that we can do within the current Nodoka theme. Matthias From mclasen at redhat.com Sat Aug 1 00:57:57 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:57:57 -0400 Subject: desktop spin changes Message-ID: <1249088277.1512.68.camel@planemask> Over the last few days, I have make made some changes with the goal of improving the menus of the desktop spin. Most of this was done by splitting packages or just excluding packages. I am not going to list all the changes in detail here, but I wanted to mention one change: the System menu in F11 has 3 (!) 'About' menuitems, one of which opens the same program as the 'Help' item right above it. This has been reduced to just 'Help' and 'About this computer'. 'About Fedora' is not lost, it shows up as the first document when you open 'Help'. Matthias From debarshi.ray at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 04:38:44 2009 From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 10:08:44 +0530 Subject: (Asus, M51VA, touchpad) Asus M51VA+Fedora 10: Touchpad cannot be disabled Message-ID: <3170f42f0908022138q2d08b5carfed38e863ea61f84@mail.gmail.com> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/506215 I got this bug assigned to the gnome-build package and I am quite sure that it has got nothing to do with disabling of touchpads. To which package should I reassign this one? Or should I just close it? Cheerio, Debarshi -- One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an imaginary part. -- Andrew Koenig From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 3 04:59:41 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 10:29:41 +0530 Subject: Gnote now depends on dbus-c++ Message-ID: <4A766EBD.2010008@fedoraproject.org> Hi, The latest version, 0.6.1 has D-Bus support and is in Rawhide now. dbus-c++ is a very small dependency (317 K) but a heads up for the Live CD just in case. Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Aug 3 06:28:49 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 09:28:49 +0300 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <20090731200153.GC5491@tango.0pointer.de> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731200153.GC5491@tango.0pointer.de> Message-ID: <4A7683A1.3050306@nicubunu.ro> On 07/31/2009 11:01 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > I must say I always look enviously to the OpenSUSE's and Ubuntu's of > this world with their slick dark or semi-dark ("Sonar"? "Dust"?) > themes. Fedora needs one too. (Or at least the ones stolen from > opensuse/ubuntu) While I welcome the addition of a dark theme (a good number of users like such one) i strongly oppose making it the *default*, the large majority is used to read black on white. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/ my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/ From bnocera at redhat.com Mon Aug 3 08:38:01 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 09:38:01 +0100 Subject: (Asus, M51VA, touchpad) Asus M51VA+Fedora 10: Touchpad cannot be disabled In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0908022138q2d08b5carfed38e863ea61f84@mail.gmail.com> References: <3170f42f0908022138q2d08b5carfed38e863ea61f84@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1249288681.28327.15003.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 10:08 +0530, Debarshi Ray wrote: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/506215 > > I got this bug assigned to the gnome-build package and I am quite sure > that it has got nothing to do with disabling of touchpads. To which > package should I reassign this one? Or should I just close it? Start with the control-center asking the reported for versions of that (and which actual preference was used), and put it on needinfo. Cheers From mnowak at redhat.com Mon Aug 3 15:26:09 2009 From: mnowak at redhat.com (Michal Nowak) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 11:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <21702394.373971249312695612.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> Message-ID: <902009008.374661249313169058.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> ----- "Matthias Clasen" wrote: > On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 15:35 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) said: > > > Hey all, > > > > > > we've been discussing the idea of changing the default > GTK+/Metacity > > > theme in F12. Nodoka has been the default for a while, and it > seems to > > > undergo a major rework now ( http://mso-chronicles.blogspot.com/ > ). > > > > > > We don't want to do a radical visual change, though. The idea is > to go > > > back to the upstream default, Clearlooks. > > > > Well, that would still be a visual change. Given that he's > restarting > > nodoka from scratch, that would leave the options as being either: > > - go to clearlooks > > - stay with the old nodoka version > > ? > > I see that I should have phrased this better... > > What I meant to covey is: we _do_ want some visual change, e.g. get > rid > of some small annoyances in the current default theme, such as the > dotted lines in treeviews. > > But as far as change goes, it is probably fine to keep it subtle > (like > going to Clearlooks) and not radical, like Lennart proposes (pick a > dark > default theme). > > > Also, would we be changing the icon set? > > I don't think think we have readily available options here. > gnome-colors > is popular and has a nice blue variant, but it is not packaged for > Fedora atm. > http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/GNOME-colors?content=82562 Filled review request: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=515280 Feel free to do the review. > > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From jonwal_rk at yahoo.co.in Tue Aug 4 10:38:41 2009 From: jonwal_rk at yahoo.co.in (rahul kumar) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 16:08:41 +0530 (IST) Subject: help In-Reply-To: <3492acc30907200143x76eb630ev78d9792a63b06681@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43517.76429.qm@web8703.mail.in.yahoo.com> Thanks for mailing me, But i m doing graduation in computer science and only knows c , c++ . i have not done any fedora programming.see , if u help me . Looking for local information? Find it on Yahoo! Local http://in.local.yahoo.com/ From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Aug 4 18:51:16 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:51:16 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd Message-ID: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> The live cd has a very hard time shrinking below 700M, and it is not going to get better when it switches to use a dracut initrd. One way to make sufficient room on the live cd would be to drop Gimp. This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat unconventional. There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment first, anyway. So, comments ? Matthias From notting at redhat.com Tue Aug 4 19:47:29 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 15:47:29 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <20090804194728.GA16669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) said: > The live cd has a very hard time shrinking below 700M, and it is not > going to get better when it switches to use a dracut initrd. > > One way to make sufficient room on the live cd would be to drop Gimp. > > This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a > very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most > need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat > unconventional. Do we want to move cheese to the main desktop group, and then just drop the graphics group from the CD entirely? (It would also avoid the f-spot machinations.) Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Aug 4 20:09:24 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 16:09:24 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090804194728.GA16669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <20090804194728.GA16669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1249416564.1508.0.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 15:47 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) said: > > The live cd has a very hard time shrinking below 700M, and it is not > > going to get better when it switches to use a dracut initrd. > > > > One way to make sufficient room on the live cd would be to drop Gimp. > > > > This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a > > very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most > > need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat > > unconventional. > > Do we want to move cheese to the main desktop group, and then just > drop the graphics group from the CD entirely? (It would also avoid > the f-spot machinations.) > Yeah, that sounds like a good way to achieve this. From gvarisco at redhat.com Tue Aug 4 20:38:10 2009 From: gvarisco at redhat.com (Gianluca Varisco) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:38:10 +0200 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4A789C32.8080509@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 08/04/2009 08:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to > the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment > first, anyway. So, comments ? > +1 As Bill said, it also makes sense for me to just drop the graphics group. Cheers, Gianluca -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp4nDIACgkQK/GZLlzGxsiLcQCg18hZB8J0hwOEIggBYFYwM1RT 914An2c8ZamW/S4zHuk+0NoT7KnnQi2b =lwN7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From 123mizan at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 21:53:43 2009 From: 123mizan at gmail.com (M Yakub Mizan) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 03:53:43 +0600 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A789C32.8080509@redhat.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A789C32.8080509@redhat.com> Message-ID: <7fc906ca0908041453r40a56864r6efa2b3ebe478e22@mail.gmail.com> i never used them too. same as above people. On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 2:38 AM, Gianluca Varisco wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 08/04/2009 08:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to >> the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment >> first, anyway. So, comments ? >> > > +1 > > As Bill said, it also makes sense for me to just drop the graphics group. > > Cheers, > > Gianluca > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkp4nDIACgkQK/GZLlzGxsiLcQCg18hZB8J0hwOEIggBYFYwM1RT > 914An2c8ZamW/S4zHuk+0NoT7KnnQi2b > =lwN7 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Aug 5 07:00:09 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:00:09 +0300 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> On 08/04/2009 09:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a > very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most > need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat > unconventional. > > There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to > the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment > first, anyway. So, comments ? Can you please define the audience of the Live CD? It is the disk we usually handle to people coming at various events to advertise Fedora and honestly I don't feel comfortable spreading discs with no useful applications on them. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/ my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/ From postmaster at boxbe.com Wed Aug 5 07:04:17 2009 From: postmaster at boxbe.com (postmaster at boxbe.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 00:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd (Action Required) Message-ID: <693752136.327977.1249455857917.JavaMail.prod@app003.boxbe.com> Hello Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop, This message serves as notification that you will not receive any more courtesy notices from our members for two days. Messages you have sent will remain in a lower priority queue for our member to review at their leisure. Future messages will be more likely to be viewed if you are on our member's priority Guest List. Thank you, wieseltux23 at gmail.com About Boxbe This courtesy notice is part of a free service to make email more reliable and useful. Boxbe (http://www.boxbe.com) uses your existing social network and that of your friends to keep your inbox clean and make sure you receive email from people who matter to you. Boxbe: Say Goodbye to Email Overload Visit http://www.boxbe.com/how-it-works?tc=286482223_1025544855 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Nicu Buculei Subject: Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:00:09 +0300 Size: 3836 URL: From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 09:55:36 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 05:55:36 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> Hey, On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) said: >> Hey all, >> >> we've been discussing the idea of changing the default GTK+/Metacity >> theme in F12. Nodoka has been the default for a while, and it seems to >> undergo a major rework now ( http://mso-chronicles.blogspot.com/ ). >> >> We don't want to do a radical visual change, though. The idea is to go >> back to the upstream default, Clearlooks. > > Well, that would still be a visual change. Given that he's restarting > nodoka from scratch, that would leave the options as being either: > - go to clearlooks > - stay with the old nodoka version For now we want to stay with upstream Clearlooks. There are a few reasons for this. Roughly: * Goals I don't agree with the stated goal of the Nodoka theme to make something that looks uniquely Fedora which also includes an icon theme. A better goal is to look good and be well integrated with the platform we are building upstream in GNOME. * Alignment We have a number of pretty major and interesting things going on in GNOME that will appear before, during, or shortly after the F12 cycle. Some of these are client side decorations, a new theme drawing library, new high resolution icons, and GNOME Shell. Any and all of which really change what we want from a theme. We want to be working very closely with the upstream design, art, and theme community in order to keep the design and development loop as efficient as possible. For now, it seems that the consensus opinion in the upstream community is that clearlooks is the best engine on which to base further work. * Experience This one is going to be somewhat subjective and prone to a whole lot of bikeshedding. I don't think Nodoka is where we want to be. I'm not sure it is all that helpful to go down a list of things that don't look right. Especially since there are things that we'd also like to change in Clearlooks. But I think Clearlooks is currently closer to what we want and probably a better base on which to work. > Also, would we be changing the icon set? The current default is Mist, right? Can someone describe for me the exact differences between Mist and GNOME? Seems to me that they are similar. Looks like the folder icons are blue in Mist and tan in GNOME. Given that the theme "selected" color changes the window decorations and controls (not to mention the wallpaper) I'm not sure I like choosing a non-neutral color for the folder icons. Other than that what is different? With the recent changes in GNOME to limit the number of icons used in menus and buttons this is less important than it would be otherwise. However, there are a number of key areas where icons are still very important. We'll also want to keep an eye on both the high resolution icons stuff and the moblin icon theme. Jon From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 12:37:28 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 08:37:28 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:00 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > On 08/04/2009 09:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > > This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a > > very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most > > need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat > > unconventional. > > > > There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to > > the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment > > first, anyway. So, comments ? > > Can you please define the audience of the Live CD? It is the disk we > usually handle to people coming at various events to advertise Fedora > and honestly I don't feel comfortable spreading discs with no useful > applications on them. But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-) From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Aug 5 13:50:38 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:50:38 +0300 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> On 08/05/2009 03:37 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:00 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: >> On 08/04/2009 09:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>> >>> This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a >>> very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most >>> need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat >>> unconventional. >>> >>> There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to >>> the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment >>> first, anyway. So, comments ? >> >> Can you please define the audience of the Live CD? It is the disk we >> usually handle to people coming at various events to advertise Fedora >> and honestly I don't feel comfortable spreading discs with no useful >> applications on them. > > But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-) So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in the "cloud" (web services)? -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/ my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/ From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 5 13:53:00 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 09:53:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote: >>> applications on them. >> >> But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-) > > So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in > the "cloud" (web services)? > How about anyone who uses the internet? firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to: 1. my email 2. all the news in the world 3. a system for developing on 4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system 5. all the documentation I could ever want that sounds pretty encompassing to me. -sv From notting at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 14:03:37 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:03:37 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <20090805140337.GE6336@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Seth Vidal (skvidal at fedoraproject.org) said: >>> But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-) >> >> So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications >> in the "cloud" (web services)? > > How about anyone who uses the internet? > firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to: > > 1. my email > 2. all the news in the world > 3. a system for developing on > 4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system > 5. all the documentation I could ever want > > that sounds pretty encompassing to me. Moreover, it's a simple, installable liveCD that makes a good base for anything; after all, we probably have more developers than artists using Fedora (at the moment) but we don't put developer tools on the Desktop live CD, mainly because they are too large. Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 14:11:45 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:11:45 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1249481505.1483.20.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 16:50 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > On 08/05/2009 03:37 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:00 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > >> On 08/04/2009 09:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > >>> > >>> This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a > >>> very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most > >>> need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat > >>> unconventional. > >>> > >>> There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to > >>> the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment > >>> first, anyway. So, comments ? > >> > >> Can you please define the audience of the Live CD? It is the disk we > >> usually handle to people coming at various events to advertise Fedora > >> and honestly I don't feel comfortable spreading discs with no useful > >> applications on them. > > > > But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-) > > So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications > in the "cloud" (web services)? No, I was making a joke. But I do believe that a browser is the most important application to include for any audience. From ghenriks at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 14:12:55 2009 From: ghenriks at gmail.com (Gerald Henriksen) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:12:55 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 09:53:00 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: > > >On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote: > >>>> applications on them. >>> >>> But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-) >> >> So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in >> the "cloud" (web services)? >> > >How about anyone who uses the internet? >firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to: > >1. my email >2. all the news in the world >3. a system for developing on >4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system >5. all the documentation I could ever want > >that sounds pretty encompassing to me. But are you, or for that matter anyone else on these lists who already use Fedora, the target of the live cd? If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like Gimp may be the wrong thing to do. The Fedora download page says this about the live cd: "This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out Fedora?and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!" This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try out. If space is really that bad then perhaps it is time to go to a DVD, but rather than use the full DVD create an artificial size limit to minimize download time. From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 5 14:13:53 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Gerald Henriksen wrote: >> >> How about anyone who uses the internet? >> firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to: >> >> 1. my email >> 2. all the news in the world >> 3. a system for developing on >> 4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system >> 5. all the documentation I could ever want >> >> that sounds pretty encompassing to me. > > But are you, or for that matter anyone else on these lists who already > use Fedora, the target of the live cd? > > If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, > the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to > Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like > Gimp may be the wrong thing to do. > > The Fedora download page says this about the live cd: > > "This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system > featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out > Fedora?and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!" > > This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because > it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try > out. > > If space is really that bad then perhaps it is time to go to a DVD, > but rather than use the full DVD create an artificial size limit to > minimize download time. We can't go to a DVD w/o a lot of problems. CDs are much cheaper to make up and output. This discussion has been had A LOT - going to a DVD as the base live image is not going to happen yet. -sv From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 14:18:51 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:18:51 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> Message-ID: <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 10:12:55AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote: > On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 09:53:00 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: > > > > > > >On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > > >>>> applications on them. > >>> > >>> But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-) > >> > >> So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in > >> the "cloud" (web services)? > >> > > > >How about anyone who uses the internet? > >firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to: > > > >1. my email > >2. all the news in the world > >3. a system for developing on > >4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system > >5. all the documentation I could ever want > > > >that sounds pretty encompassing to me. > > But are you, or for that matter anyone else on these lists who already > use Fedora, the target of the live cd? > > If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, > the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to > Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like > Gimp may be the wrong thing to do. > > The Fedora download page says this about the live cd: > > "This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system > featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out > Fedora?and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!" > > This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because > it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try > out. I could substitute quite a lot of random applications for "Gimp" above and that argument would be the same -- which probably means it's not a very strong one. The Desktop Live CD has sufficient applications for someone to browse the web; retrieve, read, and send email; create business documents; and view and organize media. And it has support for searching and later installing additional software. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 14:23:56 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:23:56 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> Message-ID: <1249482236.1483.30.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:13 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote: > > If space is really that bad then perhaps it is time to go to a DVD, > > but rather than use the full DVD create an artificial size limit to > > minimize download time. > > We can't go to a DVD w/o a lot of problems. CDs are much cheaper to make > up and output. This discussion has been had A LOT - going to a DVD as the > base live image is not going to happen yet. > I am going to seriously push for targetting a 1GB usb stick for F13. Continuing to squeeze ever-shrinking amounts of useful content onto a CD is a dead-end. Localized spins and lang-packs could delay the inevitable, but rpm seems unable to give us a working lang-pack solution... Matthias From tomkis at hotmail.co.uk Wed Aug 5 14:27:58 2009 From: tomkis at hotmail.co.uk (Tomasz Kisielewski) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 15:27:58 +0100 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> Message-ID: Hi If the target audience of live cd is "experienced" Linux user, doesn't have to be fedora user, than give up gimp easily. Such people usually configure their "perfect system" by themselves. If the target is newbe, migrated from windows, looking for something new, or only person who has heard something about Linux and wants to try then we have to place as many "cool" features as possible, gimp is good image editor. What about amsn, kopete or other client capable to talk to windows messanger? People on MS system use this for communication. Tom > From: ghenriks at gmail.com > To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:12:55 -0400 > Subject: Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd > > On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 09:53:00 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: > > > > > > >On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > > >>>> applications on them. > >>> > >>> But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-) > >> > >> So i take the target audience of this spin is people using applications in > >> the "cloud" (web services)? > >> > > > >How about anyone who uses the internet? > >firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to: > > > >1. my email > >2. all the news in the world > >3. a system for developing on > >4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system > >5. all the documentation I could ever want > > > >that sounds pretty encompassing to me. > > But are you, or for that matter anyone else on these lists who already > use Fedora, the target of the live cd? > > If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, > the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to > Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like > Gimp may be the wrong thing to do. > > The Fedora download page says this about the live cd: > > "This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system > featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out > Fedora?and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!" > > This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because > it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try > out. > > If space is really that bad then perhaps it is time to go to a DVD, > but rather than use the full DVD create an artificial size limit to > minimize download time. > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list _________________________________________________________________ Celebrate a decade of Messenger with free winks, emoticons, display pics, and more. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Aug 5 14:08:53 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 17:08:53 +0300 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <4A799275.8010002@nicubunu.ro> On 08/05/2009 04:53 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: > On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote: >>> >>> But we didn't remove the useful application: firefox is still in :-) >> >> So i take the target audience of this spin is people using >> applications in the "cloud" (web services)? >> > > How about anyone who uses the internet? > firefox and a terminal w/ssh gives me access to: > > 1. my email > 2. all the news in the world > 3. a system for developing on > 4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system > 5. all the documentation I could ever want > > that sounds pretty encompassing to me. So the audience of the Desktop Live CD, the one featured prominently on the download page (the first item there) and described as "It's everything you need to try out Fedora" is programmers/system administrators? I may sound repetitive but I am genuinely curious to learn what the people behind the spin see as their target. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From notting at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 14:30:40 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:30:40 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090805143035.GH6336@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> William Jon McCann (william.jon.mccann at gmail.com) said: > * Goals > I don't agree with the stated goal of the Nodoka theme to make > something that looks uniquely Fedora which also includes an icon > theme. A better goal is to look good and be well integrated with the > platform we are building upstream in GNOME. Well, given the stock Ubuntu themes, and the stock SLED themes, won't you end up with something that's uniquely Fedora even if you follow upstream? > > Also, would we be changing the icon set? > > The current default is Mist, right? Can someone describe for me the > exact differences between Mist and GNOME? Seems to me that they are > similar. $ find /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/ /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/ /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/actions /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/actions/document-open.svg /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/status /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/status/folder-drag-accept.svg /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/status/folder-open.svg /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/status/folder-visiting.svg /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places/folder-new.svg /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places/folder-remote.svg /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places/user-home.svg /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places/folder.svg /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places/folder-saved-search.svg The entirety of it is changing the folder icons. Bill From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 5 14:34:10 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:34:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249482236.1483.30.camel@planemask> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <1249482236.1483.30.camel@planemask> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:13 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote: > >>> If space is really that bad then perhaps it is time to go to a DVD, >>> but rather than use the full DVD create an artificial size limit to >>> minimize download time. >> >> We can't go to a DVD w/o a lot of problems. CDs are much cheaper to make >> up and output. This discussion has been had A LOT - going to a DVD as the >> base live image is not going to happen yet. >> > > I am going to seriously push for targetting a 1GB usb stick for F13. > Continuing to squeeze ever-shrinking amounts of useful content onto a CD > is a dead-end. Localized spins and lang-packs could delay the > inevitable, but rpm seems unable to give us a working lang-pack > solution... a 1gb usb stick seems not-unreasonable. Jumping to a DVD seems like a larger leap, to me. -sv From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 14:42:00 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:42:00 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <20090805143035.GH6336@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> <20090805143035.GH6336@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <939dd5750908050742g29e3f070v899f360bcb5b2631@mail.gmail.com> Hey Bill, On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > William Jon McCann (william.jon.mccann at gmail.com) said: >> ?* Goals >> ? ? I don't agree with the stated goal of the Nodoka theme to make >> something that looks uniquely Fedora which also includes an icon >> theme. ?A better goal is to look good and be well integrated with the >> platform we are building upstream in GNOME. > > Well, given the stock Ubuntu themes, and the stock SLED themes, > won't you end up with something that's uniquely Fedora even if > you follow upstream? That seems like it would be a side effect, yes. >> > Also, would we be changing the icon set? >> >> The current default is Mist, right? ?Can someone describe for me the >> exact differences between Mist and GNOME? ?Seems to me that they are >> similar. > > $ find /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/ > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/ > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/actions > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/actions/document-open.svg > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/status > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/status/folder-drag-accept.svg > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/status/folder-open.svg > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/status/folder-visiting.svg > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places/folder-new.svg > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places/folder-remote.svg > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places/user-home.svg > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places/folder.svg > /usr/share/icons/Mist/scalable/places/folder-saved-search.svg OK, that's what it looked like to me but just wanted to check. Thanks for checking. So I'd say we go with the GNOME icons in that case. Jon From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Aug 5 14:46:38 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 17:46:38 +0300 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A799B4E.6050607@nicubunu.ro> On 08/05/2009 05:18 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > I could substitute quite a lot of random applications for "Gimp" above > and that argument would be the same -- which probably means it's not a > very strong one. The Desktop Live CD has sufficient applications for > someone to browse the web; retrieve, read, and send email; create > business documents; and view and organize media. And it has support > for searching and later installing additional software. I also have on my netbook something which has grow-up from a Desktop spin (with a ton of additional yummed stuff) but I see us using promoting the CD to a) users familiar with Live CDs from another distros, who expect a certain functionality OOTB and b) people new to Linux, not knowledgeable about the inner working of the distro and supposed to see Linux is better. If those people are not the target of the spin, then perfectly fine. Only it must not be the recommended download or the disc we give away at events. I would argue a spin intended to be a showcase must have *more* applications installed by default but I understand the space limitations (however, 1 GB USB sticks may be enough). -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From notting at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 14:49:55 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:49:55 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> Message-ID: <20090805144955.GA8161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Tomasz Kisielewski (tomkis at hotmail.co.uk) said: > If the target audience of live cd is "experienced" Linux user, doesn't have > to be fedora user, than give up gimp easily. Such people usually configure > their "perfect system" by themselves. If the target is newbe, migrated from > windows, looking for something new, or only person who has heard something > about Linux and wants to try then we have to place as many "cool" features > as possible, gimp is good image editor. What about amsn, kopete or other > client capable to talk to windows messanger? We already ship a IM client on the live CD. Bill From notting at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 14:52:47 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:52:47 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A799275.8010002@nicubunu.ro> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <4A799275.8010002@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <20090805145246.GB8161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Nicu Buculei (nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro) said: >> 1. my email >> 2. all the news in the world >> 3. a system for developing on >> 4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system >> 5. all the documentation I could ever want >> >> that sounds pretty encompassing to me. > > So the audience of the Desktop Live CD, the one featured prominently on > the download page (the first item there) and described as "It's > everything you need to try out Fedora" is programmers/system > administrators? Yes, that's why the LiveCD has Eclipse, gcc, and lots of -devel packages for programmers, and has wireshark, puppet, cobbler, and nmap for system administrators. Wait, what? I do not see at *all* how you make the leap from "LiveCD does not include Gimp" to "LiveCD must be for programmers and administrators." Bill From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Aug 5 14:53:29 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 17:53:29 +0300 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <1249482236.1483.30.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4A799CE9.5040409@nicubunu.ro> On 08/05/2009 05:34 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: > On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> I am going to seriously push for targetting a 1GB usb stick for F13. >> Continuing to squeeze ever-shrinking amounts of useful content onto a CD >> is a dead-end. Localized spins and lang-packs could delay the >> inevitable, but rpm seems unable to give us a working lang-pack >> solution... > > a 1gb usb stick seems not-unreasonable. Jumping to a DVD seems like a > larger leap, to me. 1GB USB sticks may hold enough content for a good user experience, but from a cost perspective DVDs, even if not full, may prove a better solution: we give away an important number of CDs at various events. Replacing those with USB sticks would cost a lot more but replacing them with DVDs will cost about the same. So probably a good middle ground is to target the spin size-wise at 1GB sticks and distribute it on DVDs. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Aug 5 14:56:36 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 17:56:36 +0300 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <939dd5750908050742g29e3f070v899f360bcb5b2631@mail.gmail.com> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> <20090805143035.GH6336@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050742g29e3f070v899f360bcb5b2631@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A799DA4.8050901@nicubunu.ro> On 08/05/2009 05:42 PM, William Jon McCann wrote: > > OK, that's what it looked like to me but just wanted to check. Thanks > for checking. So I'd say we go with the GNOME icons in that case. And I'd say we stay with Mist and preserve our traditional blue look and feel. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Aug 5 15:02:43 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:02:43 +0300 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090805145246.GB8161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <4A799275.8010002@nicubunu.ro> <20090805145246.GB8161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A799F13.5070505@nicubunu.ro> On 08/05/2009 05:52 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Nicu Buculei said: >>> 1. my email >>> 2. all the news in the world >>> 3. a system for developing on >>> 4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system >>> 5. all the documentation I could ever want >>> >>> that sounds pretty encompassing to me. >> >> So the audience of the Desktop Live CD, the one featured prominently on >> the download page (the first item there) and described as "It's >> everything you need to try out Fedora" is programmers/system >> administrators? > > Yes, that's why the LiveCD has Eclipse, gcc, and lots of -devel > packages for programmers, and has wireshark, puppet, cobbler, and > nmap for system administrators. Wait, what? > > I do not see at *all* how you make the leap from "LiveCD does not > include Gimp" to "LiveCD must be for programmers and administrators." The quote is wrongly attributed, Seth made the leap by providing the list above with "system for developing on", "tools for adding things", "documentation". -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From drago01 at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 14:58:00 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 16:58:00 +0200 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A799CE9.5040409@nicubunu.ro> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <1249482236.1483.30.camel@planemask> <4A799CE9.5040409@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Nicu Buculei wrote: > On 08/05/2009 05:34 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: >> >> On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>> >>> I am going to seriously push for targetting a 1GB usb stick for F13. >>> Continuing to squeeze ever-shrinking amounts of useful content onto a CD >>> is a dead-end. Localized spins and lang-packs could delay the >>> inevitable, but rpm seems unable to give us a working lang-pack >>> solution... >> >> a 1gb usb stick seems not-unreasonable. Jumping to a DVD seems like a >> larger leap, to me. > > 1GB USB sticks may hold enough content for a good user experience, but from > a cost perspective DVDs, even if not full, may prove a better solution: we > give away an important number of CDs at various events. Replacing those with > USB sticks would cost a lot more but replacing them with DVDs will cost > about the same. > > So probably a good middle ground is to target the spin size-wise at 1GB > sticks and distribute it on DVDs. We have hybrid images now, so you should be able to just burn it on a DVD. From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 5 15:06:02 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 11:06:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A799F13.5070505@nicubunu.ro> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <4A799275.8010002@nicubunu.ro> <20090805145246.GB8161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4A799F13.5070505@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Nicu Buculei wrote: >> >> Yes, that's why the LiveCD has Eclipse, gcc, and lots of -devel >> packages for programmers, and has wireshark, puppet, cobbler, and >> nmap for system administrators. Wait, what? >> >> I do not see at *all* how you make the leap from "LiveCD does not >> include Gimp" to "LiveCD must be for programmers and administrators." > > The quote is wrongly attributed, Seth made the leap by providing the list > above with "system for developing on", "tools for adding things", > "documentation". by 'system for developing things on' I meant I can ssh out to a system. -sv From tomkis at hotmail.co.uk Wed Aug 5 15:08:04 2009 From: tomkis at hotmail.co.uk (Tomasz Kisielewski) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 16:08:04 +0100 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090805145246.GB8161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <4A799275.8010002@nicubunu.ro> <20090805145246.GB8161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: I see it is not possible to make perfect live cd for everyone desktop users, sys admins, developers.... Why not to separate these groups and prepare 2 versions on fc13 live cd, for example desktop and developers edition? It is stupid idea, but if U think about this....it might make sense. People who don't do programming, don't care about eclipse, apache, sqlite, php, python and other stuff. Developers and students, particularly last one would appreciate system ready to work for example with django, php on apache, mysql, eclipse, netbeans. I am not sure if we can make apache or mysql running from live cd, please frogive me my stupidity :) Tom > Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:52:47 -0400 > From: notting at redhat.com > To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > Subject: Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd > > Nicu Buculei (nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro) said: > >> 1. my email > >> 2. all the news in the world > >> 3. a system for developing on > >> 4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system > >> 5. all the documentation I could ever want > >> > >> that sounds pretty encompassing to me. > > > > So the audience of the Desktop Live CD, the one featured prominently on > > the download page (the first item there) and described as "It's > > everything you need to try out Fedora" is programmers/system > > administrators? > > Yes, that's why the LiveCD has Eclipse, gcc, and lots of -devel > packages for programmers, and has wireshark, puppet, cobbler, and > nmap for system administrators. Wait, what? > > I do not see at *all* how you make the leap from "LiveCD does not > include Gimp" to "LiveCD must be for programmers and administrators." > > Bill > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list _________________________________________________________________ Celebrate a decade of Messenger with free winks, emoticons, display pics, and more. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From notting at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 15:09:53 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 11:09:53 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A799F13.5070505@nicubunu.ro> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <4A799275.8010002@nicubunu.ro> <20090805145246.GB8161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4A799F13.5070505@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <20090805150953.GA8444@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Nicu Buculei (nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro) said: >>>> 1. my email >>>> 2. all the news in the world >>>> 3. a system for developing on >>>> 4. the necessary tools for adding new things to my system >>>> 5. all the documentation I could ever want >>>> >>>> that sounds pretty encompassing to me. >>> >>> So the audience of the Desktop Live CD, the one featured prominently on >>> the download page (the first item there) and described as "It's >>> everything you need to try out Fedora" is programmers/system >>> administrators? >> >> Yes, that's why the LiveCD has Eclipse, gcc, and lots of -devel >> packages for programmers, and has wireshark, puppet, cobbler, and >> nmap for system administrators. Wait, what? >> >> I do not see at *all* how you make the leap from "LiveCD does not >> include Gimp" to "LiveCD must be for programmers and administrators." > > The quote is wrongly attributed, Seth made the leap by providing the > list above with "system for developing on", "tools for adding things", > "documentation". Um, no. Context included above. You somehow made the leap from 'tools for adding new things' (i.e. PackageKit) and 'documentation' to 'system administrators'. That's an impressive leap of logic. So, for the new user, what are the most likely things they need to do on images? It's likely: - resize - crop - rotate - frob the color balance/brightness/contrast - (maybe) redeye removal We still include tools for that. You could argue (fairly sucessfully, I think), that gimp is actually an advanced tool for graphics professionals, not a first line tool for new users. Bill From notting at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 15:10:48 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 11:10:48 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <4A799275.8010002@nicubunu.ro> <20090805145246.GB8161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20090805151048.GB8444@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Tomasz Kisielewski (tomkis at hotmail.co.uk) said: > Why not to separate these groups and prepare 2 versions on fc13 live cd There was a developer spin. No one is currently maintaining it, so it's not produced. (Not sure what that has to do with gimp vs. no gimp) Bill From frankly3d at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 15:14:36 2009 From: frankly3d at gmail.com (Frank Murphy) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:14:36 +0100 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090805151048.GB8444@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <4A799275.8010002@nicubunu.ro> <20090805145246.GB8161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20090805151048.GB8444@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A79A1DC.5060306@gmail.com> On 05/08/09 16:10, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Tomasz Kisielewski (tomkis at hotmail.co.uk) said: >> Why not to separate these groups and prepare 2 versions on fc13 live cd > > There was a developer spin. No one is currently maintaining it, so > it's not produced. (Not sure what that has to do with gimp vs. no gimp) > > Bill > Down the road a bit, may try to kick some life back into it. (dev-spin) From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Aug 5 15:14:48 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:14:48 +0300 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <4A799275.8010002@nicubunu.ro> <20090805145246.GB8161@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A79A1E8.8020502@nicubunu.ro> On 08/05/2009 06:08 PM, Tomasz Kisielewski wrote: > I see it is not possible to make perfect live cd for everyone desktop > users, sys admins, developers.... > Why not to separate these groups and prepare 2 versions on fc13 live cd, > for example desktop and developers edition? > It is stupid idea, but if U think about this....it might make sense. > People who don't do programming, don't care about eclipse, apache, > sqlite, php, python and other stuff. Developers and students, > particularly last one would appreciate system ready to work for example > with django, php on apache, mysql, eclipse, netbeans. I am not sure if > we can make apache or mysql running from live cd, please frogive me my > stupidity :) We have such spins http://spins.fedoraproject.org/ and there are more in the development but the truth some spins are "more equal" than others: a single one is featured on the download page and recommended to the majority of our users - and this one is expected to provide the best collection of defaults and the best out of the box experience. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From walters at verbum.org Wed Aug 5 15:51:12 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 15:51:12 +0000 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > ?And it has support > for searching and later installing additional software. Except that for it's not really as good an experience as it could be, which is I think where the real bug is. Well that and we have the problem right now of conflating "apps removed to fit in the livecd image" with "apps we don't want in the default desktop experience" too, which could be solved by a post-install hook which just runs the equivalent of "pk groupinstall gnome-desktop" or the like. From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 16:03:13 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:03:13 +0200 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1249488193.2381.23.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 05:55 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: > Hey, Hi, > For now we want to stay with upstream Clearlooks. > For a while now, I have been wondering what "we" stands for here... The discussion seems to mostly happen off-list. > There are a few reasons for this. Roughly: > > * Goals > I don't agree with the stated goal of the Nodoka theme to make > something that looks uniquely Fedora which also includes an icon > theme. A better goal is to look good and be well integrated with the > platform we are building upstream in GNOME. > The uniqueness is one of the goals, of course we want to both look good and be well integrated with the platform for Nodoka. I don't personally believe to this to be valid reason for choosing Clearlooks over Nodoka. Although one of our goals with nodoka is to bring it to wider audience and provide consistent look throughout whole Fedora -- i.e. even for QT. But we are far from there... > * Alignment > We have a number of pretty major and interesting things going on in > GNOME that will appear before, during, or shortly after the F12 cycle. > Some of these are client side decorations, a new theme drawing > library, new high resolution icons, and GNOME Shell. Any and all of > which really change what we want from a theme. We want to be working > very closely with the upstream design, art, and theme community in > order to keep the design and development loop as efficient as > possible. For now, it seems that the consensus opinion in the > upstream community is that clearlooks is the best engine on which to > base further work. > This is a pretty sound argument. Surely the gtk-engines stack is more tightly bound with upstream development than nodoka. > * Experience > This one is going to be somewhat subjective and prone to a whole > lot of bikeshedding. I don't think Nodoka is where we want to be. > I'm not sure it is all that helpful to go down a list of things that > don't look right. Especially since there are things that we'd also > like to change in Clearlooks. But I think Clearlooks is currently > closer to what we want and probably a better base on which to work. > Again, I wonder who is "we" and what exactly do they want. > The current default is Mist, right? Can someone describe for me the > exact differences between Mist and GNOME? Seems to me that they are > similar. Looks like the folder icons are blue in Mist and tan in > GNOME. Given that the theme "selected" color changes the window > decorations and controls (not to mention the wallpaper) I'm not sure I > like choosing a non-neutral color for the folder icons. Other than > that what is different? > > With the recent changes in GNOME to limit the number of icons used in > menus and buttons this is less important than it would be otherwise. > However, there are a number of key areas where icons are still very > important. We'll also want to keep an eye on both the high resolution > icons stuff and the moblin icon theme. > Mist just changes folders to be blue, which feels more Fedora. Martin PS: I'd really like to know who has the formal authority in the desktop design area -- is it the design-team, is it the Desktop SIG for GNOME, KDE SIG for KDE, ... or combination of both? IIRC the switch to Mist (at that time from bluecurve via incomplete Echo) was made by the predecessor to design-team. On the other hand this very discussion seems to be mostly Desktop SIG centered. While I don't have any preference as where the authority should be, I'd like it to be crystal clear... I certainly don't want to have a ping-pong between e.g. design-team switching icon theme to gnome-colors [1][2] while desktop SIG switching it to gnome-icon-theme... References: [1] http://code.google.com/p/gnome-colors/ [2] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=515280 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 16:39:01 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:39:01 -0700 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> On 08/05/2009 07:18 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 10:12:55AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote: >> If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, >> the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to >> Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like >> Gimp may be the wrong thing to do. >> >> The Fedora download page says this about the live cd: >> >> "This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system >> featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out >> Fedora?and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!" >> >> This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because >> it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try >> out. > > I could substitute quite a lot of random applications for "Gimp" above > and that argument would be the same -- which probably means it's not a > very strong one. I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the quality of programs written via a free software approach. In this vein, GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. They show people that free software can be quality software that is a valid alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft. > The Desktop Live CD has sufficient applications for > someone to browse the web; retrieve, read, and send email; create > business documents; and view and organize media. And it has support > for searching and later installing additional software. > This still elludes the question that's being asked. If the LiveCD's target audience is office workers wanting to do things with the livecd, then this plus Bill's note that we still have apps on the livecd to do basic photo touchups is sufficent. But for the people wanting to show others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 16:50:36 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:50:36 -0700 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1249491036.3759.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 09:39 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > This still elludes the question that's being asked. If the LiveCD's > target audience is office workers wanting to do things with the livecd, > then this plus Bill's note that we still have apps on the livecd to do > basic photo touchups is sufficent. But for the people wanting to show > others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and > shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software. The problem is that with a CD sized target, there just isn't enough space to both A) have a generally useful system for doing web/email/etc.. and B) have room to showcase grate software that is generally only available on Linux (Firefox isn't a great example as you can run that on MSFT and OSX just fine, why go to the effort of running Fedora for it?). -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From drago01 at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 16:44:52 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 18:44:52 +0200 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On 08/05/2009 07:18 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 10:12:55AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote: > >>> If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, >>> the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to >>> Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like >>> Gimp may be the wrong thing to do. >>> >>> The Fedora download page says this about the live cd: >>> >>> "This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system >>> featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out >>> Fedora?and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!" >>> >>> This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because >>> it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try >>> out. >> >> I could substitute quite a lot of random applications for "Gimp" above >> and that argument would be the same -- which probably means it's not a >> very strong one. > > I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features > that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the > best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the > quality of programs written via a free software approach. ?In this vein, > GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. ?They show > people that free software can be quality software that is a valid > alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft. > >> ?The Desktop Live CD has sufficient applications for >> someone to browse the web; retrieve, read, and send email; create >> business documents; and view and organize media. ?And it has support >> for searching and later installing additional software. >> > This still elludes the question that's being asked. ?If the LiveCD's > target audience is office workers wanting to do things with the livecd, > then this plus Bill's note that we still have apps on the livecd to do > basic photo touchups is sufficent. ?But for the people wanting to show > others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and > shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software. Both of your points mean that we should add openoffice , but we can't because we decided to ignore newer technologies and stick with the ancient (CDs). From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 5 17:03:22 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:03:22 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1249491802.2785.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 09:39 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > But for the people wanting to show > others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and > shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software. Maybe there should be a demo-ware spin? ~m From a.badger at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 17:02:26 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:02:26 -0700 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249491036.3759.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249491036.3759.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A79BB22.70902@gmail.com> On 08/05/2009 09:50 AM, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 09:39 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> This still elludes the question that's being asked. If the LiveCD's >> target audience is office workers wanting to do things with the livecd, >> then this plus Bill's note that we still have apps on the livecd to do >> basic photo touchups is sufficent. But for the people wanting to show >> others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and >> shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software. > > The problem is that with a CD sized target, there just isn't enough > space to both A) have a generally useful system for doing > web/email/etc.. and B) have room to showcase grate software that is > generally only available on Linux (Firefox isn't a great example as you > can run that on MSFT and OSX just fine, why go to the effort of running > Fedora for it?). > That's the dichotomy I set up, yes. There's two separate audiences -- those who want to do useful out-of-the-box work with the livecd and then add features to the install incrementally via packagekit and those who want to see what all the fuss is about by checking out the apps on the livecd and then downloading more things with packagekit so they have an install that meets all their needs. As the amount of space we have becomes more scarce, having the two audiences be satisfied by the same spin is becoming harder. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 16:58:44 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:58:44 -0700 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A79BA44.1080305@gmail.com> On 08/05/2009 09:44 AM, drago01 wrote: > On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> On 08/05/2009 07:18 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >>> On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 10:12:55AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote: >> >>>> If, as mentioned in the original question regarding target audience, >>>> the point of the live cd is something to hand out to people new to >>>> Fedora to show them what Fedora/Linux offers then removing things like >>>> Gimp may be the wrong thing to do. >>>> >>>> The Fedora download page says this about the live cd: >>>> >>>> "This is the latest version of the Fedora Linux operating system >>>> featuring the GNOME desktop. It's everything you need to try out >>>> Fedora?and if you like it, install it right from the desktop!" >>>> >>>> This to me means things like Gimp should stay on the live cd, because >>>> it is one of the features of Fedora/Linux that people may want to try >>>> out. >>> >>> I could substitute quite a lot of random applications for "Gimp" above >>> and that argument would be the same -- which probably means it's not a >>> very strong one. >> >> I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features >> that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the >> best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the >> quality of programs written via a free software approach. In this vein, >> GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. They show >> people that free software can be quality software that is a valid >> alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft. >> >>> The Desktop Live CD has sufficient applications for >>> someone to browse the web; retrieve, read, and send email; create >>> business documents; and view and organize media. And it has support >>> for searching and later installing additional software. >>> >> This still elludes the question that's being asked. If the LiveCD's >> target audience is office workers wanting to do things with the livecd, >> then this plus Bill's note that we still have apps on the livecd to do >> basic photo touchups is sufficent. But for the people wanting to show >> others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and >> shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software. > > Both of your points mean that we should add openoffice , but we can't > because we decided to ignore newer technologies and stick with the > ancient (CDs). > The other office suites have been quality products in my experience as well. OTOH, perhaps the ideal demonstration of what Fedora and Free software are would have openoffice on it and not be targeted at a CD. But that means that we start to move towards people at trade shows getting a different spin than the default that people download from the internet. Perhaps that's inevitable? -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From notting at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 17:14:49 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 13:14:49 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249491802.2785.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249491802.2785.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090805171449.GA10726@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> M?ir?n Duffy (duffy at fedoraproject.org) said: > > But for the people wanting to show > > others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and > > shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software. > > Maybe there should be a demo-ware spin? Some best-of-breed open source stuff like puppet, or apache, or doesn't really lend itself to a demo-ware spin. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't/couldn't have one, but it's not going to be a full best-of-breed of what Fedora can do. Bill From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 5 17:29:16 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:29:16 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090805171449.GA10726@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249491802.2785.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20090805171449.GA10726@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1249493356.2785.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 13:14 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > M?ir?n Duffy (duffy at fedoraproject.org) said: > > > But for the people wanting to show > > > others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and > > > shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software. > > > > Maybe there should be a demo-ware spin? > > Some best-of-breed open source stuff like puppet, or apache, > or doesn't really lend itself to a > demo-ware spin. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't/couldn't have one, > but it's not going to be a full best-of-breed of what Fedora can do. I guess it could be tailored to the conference or to the general interests our booth workers have experienced in the booth. I have noticed from my 'booth babe' experiences that veyr visual demonstrations, though, are very quick & effective and go a long way towards making a good impression. Giving a demo of something like puppet I think would require a level of expertise/coordination/advance setup on the part of the booth worker that would probably not be worth the return. The point wouldn't be to show the full best-of-breed what Fedora can do, just a sampling based on what's easily demo-able by our booth workers and what makes a good impression easily and quickly. I guess this could be achieved in other ways though. Like when we were at the FUDcon Berlin booth, Nicu and I created a graphic and made a video showing all the steps of the graphic's creation so it could be played back as a demonstration of what Fedora can do. Along those lines, we could have a set of videos that could be played to give the demos, although it would be cool to also have the apps used in the demos available for people visiting the booth to play with. ('you saw what we did, now it's your turn to try' kind of thing) ~m From a.badger at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 17:37:43 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:37:43 -0700 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249493356.2785.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249491802.2785.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20090805171449.GA10726@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1249493356.2785.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A79C367.1060506@gmail.com> On 08/05/2009 10:29 AM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > I guess it could be tailored to the conference or to the general > interests our booth workers have experienced in the booth. I have > noticed from my 'booth babe' experiences that veyr visual > demonstrations, though, are very quick & effective and go a long way > towards making a good impression. Giving a demo of something like puppet > I think would require a level of expertise/coordination/advance setup on > the part of the booth worker that would probably not be worth the > return. > > The point wouldn't be to show the full best-of-breed what Fedora can do, > just a sampling based on what's easily demo-able by our booth workers > and what makes a good impression easily and quickly. > +1 > I guess this could be achieved in other ways though. Like when we were > at the FUDcon Berlin booth, Nicu and I created a graphic and made a > video showing all the steps of the graphic's creation so it could be > played back as a demonstration of what Fedora can do. Along those lines, > we could have a set of videos that could be played to give the demos, > although it would be cool to also have the apps used in the demos > available for people visiting the booth to play with. ('you saw what we > did, now it's your turn to try' kind of thing) > oooh... Excellent! I think a good demo spin would incorporate some of this kind of media as well. Then when someone gets their shiny Fedora USB key home and sits down to do some work on their computer they can fire up GIMP and replay the video as a step by step tutorial. Having both the video and the apps is greater than having each by themselves. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From notting at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 17:44:04 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 13:44:04 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A79C367.1060506@gmail.com> References: <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249491802.2785.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20090805171449.GA10726@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1249493356.2785.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A79C367.1060506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090805174403.GA11235@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger at gmail.com) said: > > I guess this could be achieved in other ways though. Like when we were > > at the FUDcon Berlin booth, Nicu and I created a graphic and made a > > video showing all the steps of the graphic's creation so it could be > > played back as a demonstration of what Fedora can do. Along those lines, > > we could have a set of videos that could be played to give the demos, > > although it would be cool to also have the apps used in the demos > > available for people visiting the booth to play with. ('you saw what we > > did, now it's your turn to try' kind of thing) > > > oooh... Excellent! I think a good demo spin would incorporate some of > this kind of media as well. Then when someone gets their shiny Fedora > USB key home and sits down to do some work on their computer they can > fire up GIMP and replay the video as a step by step tutorial. Having > both the video and the apps is greater than having each by themselves. Yes, but when you've gotten to this point, you've long since left behind any sort of single-CD spin, as you'll need both the tools and the video, neither of which are small. (Given the need to have some play space on your USB stick for the overlay, I wonder if even 1GB is enough.) Bill From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 5 18:11:46 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:11:46 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090805174403.GA11235@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249491802.2785.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20090805171449.GA10726@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1249493356.2785.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A79C367.1060506@gmail.com> <20090805174403.GA11235@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1249495906.2785.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 13:44 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > oooh... Excellent! I think a good demo spin would incorporate some of > > this kind of media as well. Then when someone gets their shiny Fedora > > USB key home and sits down to do some work on their computer they can > > fire up GIMP and replay the video as a step by step tutorial. Having > > both the video and the apps is greater than having each by themselves. > > Yes, but when you've gotten to this point, you've long since left > behind any sort of single-CD spin, as you'll need both the tools > and the video, neither of which are small. (Given the need to have > some play space on your USB stick for the overlay, I wonder if even > 1GB is enough.) Hmm. Well, I think it depends. If you *do* have network access (which, as previously mentioned, tends to be spotty at conferences) the videos could be hosted somewhere at fpo a a video podcast feed, and that feed could be automagically set in totem and maybe as a firefox bookmarklet. Then visitors to the booth could pick up a copy of this demo cd and still be able to access the videos when they get home. The complication it would introduce is that the ambassadors or whomever is giving the demo would need to download the media set separately on a different USB key ahead of time and make sure they plug it in while giving the video demos at the booth. ~m From tiagomatos at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 19:28:31 2009 From: tiagomatos at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Rui_Tiago_Ca=C3=A7=C3=A3o_Matos?=) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 20:28:31 +0100 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249493356.2785.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249491802.2785.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20090805171449.GA10726@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1249493356.2785.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: 2009/8/5 M?ir?n Duffy : > I guess this could be achieved in other ways though. Like when we were > at the FUDcon Berlin booth, Nicu and I created a graphic and made a > video showing all the steps of the graphic's creation so it could be > played back as a demonstration of what Fedora can do. Along those lines, > we could have a set of videos that could be played to give the demos, > although it would be cool to also have the apps used in the demos > available for people visiting the booth to play with. ('you saw what we > did, now it's your turn to try' kind of thing) Really nice, so what about this: * Make the desktop spin a GNOME showcase. A very good general purpose desktop without the heavy productivity apps if those would take away from an awesome desktop because of the space constraint, but otherwise a really slick and immediately useful desktop for the average user. * Make the default Firefox homepage (and maybe also an icon on the desktop to open it called "Discover Fedora") be an URL to a fedora hosted webpage with all those wonderful videos (theora encoded!), nice explanations for new users etc. *And* a link on the side "Install this software" which would fire up PackageKit to install, say, GIMP and Inkscape as showcased on the video. - This webpage could then go on and contain a paragraph with developer tools and the same kind of link. Idem for office apps, scientific/math tools, server foo, virtualization, etc. Btw, this would work both on the installed system as well as on the live system as long as the computer has enough RAM to install the packages. Rui From davidz at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 20:22:37 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:22:37 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <939dd5750908050742g29e3f070v899f360bcb5b2631@mail.gmail.com> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> <20090805143035.GH6336@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050742g29e3f070v899f360bcb5b2631@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1249503757.18312.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:42 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: > OK, that's what it looked like to me but just wanted to check. Thanks > for checking. So I'd say we go with the GNOME icons in that case. Have you actually tried using the GNOME icons instead of Mist? It looks completely out of place with brownish folder icons instead of the blue ones we have the Mist. FYI, that was the main reason we chose Mist instead of GNOME when we switched from Bluecurve a couple of years back. And I don't think we want this to change unless good reasons are put on the table. Thanks, David From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 20:29:22 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 16:29:22 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <1249503757.18312.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> <20090805143035.GH6336@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050742g29e3f070v899f360bcb5b2631@mail.gmail.com> <1249503757.18312.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <939dd5750908051329j3fc3cd7bg5469ad23b966f1e4@mail.gmail.com> Hi, On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 4:22 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:42 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: >> OK, that's what it looked like to me but just wanted to check. ?Thanks >> for checking. ?So I'd say we go with the GNOME icons in that case. > > Have you actually tried using the GNOME icons instead of Mist? It looks > completely out of place with brownish folder icons instead of the blue > ones we have the Mist. Of course I have tried it. Why does it look out of place? Though, I'm not going to get into a bikeshedding argument about the folder colors though. It isn't that big of a deal since they are the only icons that Mist provides. Jon From davidz at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 20:38:06 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:38:06 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <939dd5750908051329j3fc3cd7bg5469ad23b966f1e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> <20090805143035.GH6336@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050742g29e3f070v899f360bcb5b2631@mail.gmail.com> <1249503757.18312.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750908051329j3fc3cd7bg5469ad23b966f1e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1249504686.18312.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 16:29 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 4:22 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:42 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: > >> OK, that's what it looked like to me but just wanted to check. Thanks > >> for checking. So I'd say we go with the GNOME icons in that case. > > > > Have you actually tried using the GNOME icons instead of Mist? It looks > > completely out of place with brownish folder icons instead of the blue > > ones we have the Mist. > > Of course I have tried it. Why does it look out of place? Though, > I'm not going to get into a bikeshedding argument about the folder > colors though. It isn't that big of a deal since they are the only > icons that Mist provides. Perhaps it's not worth changing then. David From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Aug 5 20:46:03 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:46:03 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <1249488193.2381.23.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> <1249488193.2381.23.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: <1249505163.1589.10.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 18:03 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 05:55 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: > > Hey, > Hi, > > > For now we want to stay with upstream Clearlooks. > > > For a while now, I have been wondering what "we" stands for here... The > discussion seems to mostly happen off-list. 'We' refers to the design and production "team" for the desktop spin. At the moment, this is mostly me and Jon. Some of the discussion does happen off-list, which is somewhat unfortunate. This tends to occur for a few reasons: * We happen to sit in an office within 10 feet of each other * Design is ideally a high bandwidth activity * We often have impromptu discussions * So we can focus and make some decisions (almost always after talking with upstream, the Fedora community, other smart people from other distributions, etc) I have tried to keep this list in the loop on potentially controversial changes, such as the GIMP change. [...] > PS: I'd really like to know who has the formal authority in the desktop > design area -- is it the design-team, is it the Desktop SIG for GNOME, > KDE SIG for KDE, ... or combination of both? IIRC the switch to Mist (at > that time from bluecurve via incomplete Echo) was made by the > predecessor to design-team. On the other hand this very discussion seems > to be mostly Desktop SIG centered. While I don't have any preference as > where the authority should be, I'd like it to be crystal clear... I > certainly don't want to have a ping-pong between e.g. design-team > switching icon theme to gnome-colors [1][2] while desktop SIG switching > it to gnome-icon-theme... In Fedora, we are not very good at 'crystal clear' and 'formal authority', which sometimes has the unfortunate effect of letting inertia and diverging interests prevail... The closest you will probably get to a 'formal authority' is the first few lines of the kickstart file defining the desktop spin: # Maintained by the Fedora Desktop SIG: # http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Desktop # mailto:fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Matthias From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 20:58:09 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 16:58:09 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090805205809.GY3510@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 03:51:12PM +0000, Colin Walters wrote: > On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > ?And it has support > > for searching and later installing additional software. > > Except that for it's not really as good an experience as it could be, > which is I think where the real bug is. > > Well that and we have the problem right now of conflating "apps > removed to fit in the livecd image" with "apps we don't want in the > default desktop experience" too, which could be solved by a > post-install hook which just runs the equivalent of "pk groupinstall > gnome-desktop" or the like. Yeah, I wasn't arguing that what's there on the Live CD image is optimal, just that it is generally useful. The 1 GB image obviously gives some breathing room and thus flexibility to show off more applications. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 21:08:21 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 17:08:21 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090805171449.GA10726@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249491802.2785.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20090805171449.GA10726@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20090805210821.GZ3510@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 01:14:49PM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > M?ir?n Duffy (duffy at fedoraproject.org) said: > > > But for the people wanting to show > > > others what Fedora and free software are capable of at conferences and > > > shows, there is a desire to show people the best of breed software. > > > > Maybe there should be a demo-ware spin? > > Some best-of-breed open source stuff like puppet, or apache, > or doesn't really lend itself to a > demo-ware spin. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't/couldn't have one, > but it's not going to be a full best-of-breed of what Fedora can do. Is there any appeal in doing something more useful with start.fedoraproject.org, the default browser home page? Such as putting a few best of breed apps on the page, with links to the latest builds that PK can install at a click? -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 21:11:16 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 17:11:16 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <1249504686.18312.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> <20090805143035.GH6336@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050742g29e3f070v899f360bcb5b2631@mail.gmail.com> <1249503757.18312.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750908051329j3fc3cd7bg5469ad23b966f1e4@mail.gmail.com> <1249504686.18312.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <939dd5750908051411o43fb8ed1r738540321ad2a78b@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 4:38 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 16:29 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 4:22 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: >> > On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 10:42 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: >> >> OK, that's what it looked like to me but just wanted to check. ?Thanks >> >> for checking. ?So I'd say we go with the GNOME icons in that case. >> > >> > Have you actually tried using the GNOME icons instead of Mist? It looks >> > completely out of place with brownish folder icons instead of the blue >> > ones we have the Mist. >> >> Of course I have tried it. ?Why does it look out of place? ?Though, >> I'm not going to get into a bikeshedding argument about the folder >> colors though. ?It isn't that big of a deal since they are the only >> icons that Mist provides. > > Perhaps it's not worth changing then. Yeah. I think you may be right. Jon From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 22:27:20 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 00:27:20 +0200 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <1249505163.1589.10.camel@planemask> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> <1249488193.2381.23.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <1249505163.1589.10.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1249511240.2381.57.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 16:46 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > 'We' refers to the design and production "team" for the desktop spin. At > the moment, this is mostly me and Jon. Some of the discussion does > happen off-list, which is somewhat unfortunate. This tends to occur for > a few reasons: > * We happen to sit in an office within 10 feet of each other > * Design is ideally a high bandwidth activity > * We often have impromptu discussions > * So we can focus and make some decisions (almost always after > talking with upstream, the Fedora community, other smart people from > other distributions, etc) > That makes sense. > I have tried to keep this list in the loop on potentially controversial > changes, such as the GIMP change. > Thanks for that :-) > In Fedora, we are not very good at 'crystal clear' and 'formal > authority', which sometimes has the unfortunate effect of letting > inertia and diverging interests prevail... The closest you will probably > get to a 'formal authority' is the first few lines of the kickstart file > defining the desktop spin: > > # Maintained by the Fedora Desktop SIG: > # http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Desktop > # mailto:fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > That makes it clear enough for me :-) So... Back to the theme for F12. If I understand right, you are completely satisfied neither with Clearlooks nor Nodoka, but deem Clearlooks to be better candidate for being the default in F12 (for various reasons stated elsewhere in the thread). Do you have any list (or something like that) with what you'd like to change in either of them? I can certainly work on implementing such changes for Nodoka (even if it won't be default in F12, I'd like to continue with development both with the current version as well as with the rewrite), and perhaps might be able to help with Clearlooks as well (no promises though ;-). > Matthias > Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From johannbg at hi.is Wed Aug 5 23:56:54 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 23:56:54 +0000 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <1249488193.2381.23.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> <1249488193.2381.23.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: <4A7A1C46.4020907@hi.is> On 08/05/2009 04:03 PM, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 05:55 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: > >> Hey, >> > Hi, > > >> For now we want to stay with upstream Clearlooks. >> >> > For a while now, I have been wondering what "we" stands for here... The > discussion seems to mostly happen off-list Martin perhaps it's time that an art spins emerges with application themes artwork and a *DE of choice which the art team has full control over targeted at designers and novice end user. They can stick with upstream gnome artwork themes background and what not and target their spin at ? ( I'm not sure they even know ). In the long run the only thing that will separate distro's from each other is the art work and our art team certainly beats any other art team ( including upstream one ) out there by a mile. I will do my best to aid in a such a spin and I'm sure there are more out there that are more and willing to help the art team out in a spin creation since it has done so much for us. JBG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 01:21:23 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 21:21:23 -0400 Subject: The default theme for F12 In-Reply-To: <1249511240.2381.57.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> References: <1249067858.1586.71.camel@planemask> <20090731193512.GA11482@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <939dd5750908050255u36f4869fhd1ad8059a2e1147d@mail.gmail.com> <1249488193.2381.23.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> <1249505163.1589.10.camel@planemask> <1249511240.2381.57.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: <939dd5750908051821x60a82eedh78c3ea4ea13f8798@mail.gmail.com> Hi Martin, On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 16:46 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: ... > So... Back to the theme for F12. If I understand right, you are > completely satisfied neither with Clearlooks nor Nodoka, but deem > Clearlooks to be better candidate for being the default in F12 (for > various reasons stated elsewhere in the thread). Do you have any list > (or something like that) with what you'd like to change in either of > them? I can certainly work on implementing such changes for Nodoka (even > if it won't be default in F12, I'd like to continue with development > both with the current version as well as with the rewrite), and perhaps > might be able to help with Clearlooks as well (no promises though ;-). It would be awesome if you could work with us and the upstream Clearlooks developers to try to get some of the things done we're thinking about. I'll try to catch up with both you and Cimi in the next two days and hopefully we can figure out the best way to collaborate on this. Anyway, just wanted to respond quickly that I think this is a very promising development and that I appreciate the very mature and constructive way you've approached this delicate situation (and the whole email thread). I'm hopeful for how this can turn out. Thanks, Jon From mcepl at redhat.com Thu Aug 6 09:49:37 2009 From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:49:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> Message-ID: Toshio Kuratomi, Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:39:01 -0700: > I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features > that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the > best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the > quality of programs written via a free software approach. In this vein, > GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. They show > people that free software can be quality software that is a valid > alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft. Well, if we want to follow this logic, than we should throw a lot of stuff before removing OpenOffice.org from it, right? Mat?j From bnocera at redhat.com Thu Aug 6 10:26:28 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:26:28 +0100 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1249554388.7913.2851.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 14:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > The live cd has a very hard time shrinking below 700M, and it is not > going to get better when it switches to use a dracut initrd. > > One way to make sufficient room on the live cd would be to drop Gimp. > > This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a > very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most > need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat > unconventional. > > There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to > the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment > first, anyway. So, comments ? Would dropping just the gimp user docs, or the extra data be enough? From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu Aug 6 11:56:41 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:56:41 +0300 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A7AC4F9.2000502@nicubunu.ro> On 08/06/2009 12:49 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: > Toshio Kuratomi, Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:39:01 -0700: >> I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features >> that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the >> best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the >> quality of programs written via a free software approach. In this vein, >> GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. They show >> people that free software can be quality software that is a valid >> alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft. > > Well, if we want to follow this logic, than we should throw a lot of > stuff before removing OpenOffice.org from it, right? OpenOffice.org is not removed since due to its size it was never part of the Live CD :p I had to explain more than once to various people who tried only the Live CD about the size constraints and that OOo is indeed part of our distro and is available on media, just not on this particular format/spin. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/ my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/ From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Aug 6 12:46:16 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:46:16 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249554388.7913.2851.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <1249554388.7913.2851.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1249562776.1608.3.camel@planemask> On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 11:26 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 14:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > The live cd has a very hard time shrinking below 700M, and it is not > > going to get better when it switches to use a dracut initrd. > > > > One way to make sufficient room on the live cd would be to drop Gimp. > > > > This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a > > very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most > > need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat > > unconventional. > > > > There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to > > the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment > > first, anyway. So, comments ? > > Would dropping just the gimp user docs, or the extra data be enough? > Those were already gone. And it was not enough. From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Aug 6 12:47:38 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:47:38 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 09:49 +0000, Matej Cepl wrote: > Toshio Kuratomi, Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:39:01 -0700: > > I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features > > that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the > > best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the > > quality of programs written via a free software approach. In this vein, > > GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces. They show > > people that free software can be quality software that is a valid > > alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft. > > Well, if we want to follow this logic, than we should throw a lot of > stuff before removing OpenOffice.org from it, right? > Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso size up to 825M. Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up to 820M. This is without any openoffice lang packs. From notting at redhat.com Thu Aug 6 13:54:51 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:54:51 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090805210821.GZ3510@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249491802.2785.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20090805171449.GA10726@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20090805210821.GZ3510@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090806135451.GC8712@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Paul W. Frields (stickster at gmail.com) said: > > Some best-of-breed open source stuff like puppet, or apache, > > or doesn't really lend itself to a > > demo-ware spin. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't/couldn't have one, > > but it's not going to be a full best-of-breed of what Fedora can do. > > Is there any appeal in doing something more useful with > start.fedoraproject.org, the default browser home page? Such as > putting a few best of breed apps on the page, with links to the latest > builds that PK can install at a click? See bug 315171; there's been ideas floated in this space for a while, but there just haven't been people with time to take the ball and run with it. If there are people on this thread who want to tackle these sorts of thing and have the time to do it (I think we've sort of conclusively proven that the base development & packaging people don't, unfortunately), I'm all for it. Bill From mcepl at redhat.com Thu Aug 6 14:54:10 2009 From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 14:54:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> Message-ID: Matthias Clasen, Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:47:38 -0400: >> Well, if we want to follow this logic, than we should throw a lot of >> stuff before removing OpenOffice.org from it, right? >> > Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso size up > to 825M. > > Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up to > 820M. > > This is without any openoffice lang packs. I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic already. Mat?j From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu Aug 6 15:26:17 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 18:26:17 +0300 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: > > I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we > don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic > already. OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other applications, making the choice easier. ...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and so on. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From a.badger at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 16:19:49 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:19:49 -0700 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> On 08/06/2009 08:26 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote: > On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: >> >> I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we >> don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic >> already. > > OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other > applications, making the choice easier. > > ...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it > mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and > so on. > And two other arguments, one mine, the other from Jesse: * The two main use OOo apps have replacements that are good and very good (abiword, gnumeric). * OOo, like firefox, is equally promoted on windows. So it's not a Linux-specific showcase item. But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. Is openoffice a requirement for that audience? -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From notting at redhat.com Thu Aug 6 16:27:16 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 12:27:16 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> References: <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090806162715.GA11955@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger at gmail.com) said: > But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion > about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the > requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. Is openoffice > a requirement for that audience? Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now: - should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size? - should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able use cases? - should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin? There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, I think. Bill From a.badger at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 16:36:49 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:36:49 -0700 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090806162715.GA11955@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> <20090806162715.GA11955@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A7B06A1.4000805@gmail.com> On 08/06/2009 09:27 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger at gmail.com) said: >> But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion >> about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the >> requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. Is openoffice >> a requirement for that audience? > > Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now: > > - should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size? > - should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able > use cases? > - should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin? > > There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we > answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, > I think. > The answer to the first is another set of questions: - Do we still have areas of the world where a livecd will work in a computer but either burning or booting from livedvds or liveusb is infeasible? - Do we still want the desktop spin to be the default download option on get-fedora? As long as those two hold true, the desktop spin must be limited to a single CD in size. Note that the first of those questions needs to be addressed to a wider audience than the desktop team but the second is within the desktop team's control. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From drago01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 17:15:34 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 19:15:34 +0200 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <20090806162715.GA11955@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> <20090806162715.GA11955@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger at gmail.com) said: >> But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion >> about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the >> requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. ?Is openoffice >> a requirement for that audience? > > Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now: > > - should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size? No. From drago01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 17:16:43 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 19:16:43 +0200 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On 08/06/2009 08:26 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote: >> On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: >>> >>> I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we >>> don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic >>> already. >> >> OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other >> applications, making the choice easier. >> >> ...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it >> mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and >> so on. >> > And two other arguments, one mine, the other from Jesse: > > * The two main use OOo apps have replacements that are good and very > good (abiword, gnumeric). > * OOo, like firefox, is equally promoted on windows. ?So it's not a > Linux-specific showcase item. Well list the linux specific apps than ... most free software tends to be multiplatform because if there is interest in porting them they can easily be ported. From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Aug 6 17:33:59 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 10:33:59 -0700 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1249580039.3759.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 19:16 +0200, drago01 wrote: > > Well list the linux specific apps than ... most free software tends to > be multiplatform because if there is interest in porting them they can > easily be ported. Right, this is why using "hey look we have this cool app" as a reason to use Fedora is a poor argument, since there is hardly a case where we're the only platform (Linux), let alone the only distro to have such an app. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 17:43:35 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:43:35 +0200 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1249580615.2451.17.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 19:16 +0200, drago01 wrote: > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > On 08/06/2009 08:26 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote: > >> On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: > >>> > >>> I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we > >>> don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic > >>> already. > >> > >> OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other > >> applications, making the choice easier. > >> > >> ...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it > >> mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and > >> so on. > >> > > And two other arguments, one mine, the other from Jesse: > > > > * The two main use OOo apps have replacements that are good and very > > good (abiword, gnumeric). > > * OOo, like firefox, is equally promoted on windows. So it's not a > > Linux-specific showcase item. > > Well list the linux specific apps than ... most free software tends to > be multiplatform because if there is interest in porting them they can > easily be ported. > Well, that certainly is true, but there is a difference between applications having linux as secondary platform (most non-native-gtk/qt stuff if we talk about desktop apps) and applications having it as primary platform (most native-gtk/gtk stuff). Both OOo and FF are mainstream on Windows, linux is just another market for them, gimp and others are primary gnu or linux applications, but developed in principle to be multiplatform, so they work elsewhere as well (or can be easily ported), although gimp is gaining a significant share on windows as well ;-) And yeah, as a member of the design-team, I am sorta sad gimp gets removed, but it's probably one of the last (if not last) of really powerful applications (as opposed to rather simplistic apps targeted at general desktop audience) that has more specific target audience and is still on the Desktop Spin. Perhaps it would be a good time to rethink the purpose of Desktop Spin and clearly state which kinds of apps are desirable to have and which are not. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenriks at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 18:00:16 2009 From: ghenriks at gmail.com (Gerald Henriksen) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:00:16 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A7B06A1.4000805@gmail.com> References: <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> <20090806162715.GA11955@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4A7B06A1.4000805@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:36:49 -0700, you wrote: >On 08/06/2009 09:27 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: >> Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now: >> >> - should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size? >> - should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able >> use cases? >> - should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin? >> >> There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we >> answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, >> I think. >> > >The answer to the first is another set of questions: > >- Do we still have areas of the world where a livecd will work in a >computer but either burning or booting from livedvds or liveusb is >infeasible? Does the move from i586 to i686 eliminate the cd only machines anyway? From drago01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 18:08:46 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 20:08:46 +0200 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: References: <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> <20090806162715.GA11955@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4A7B06A1.4000805@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Gerald Henriksen wrote: > On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:36:49 -0700, you wrote: > >>On 08/06/2009 09:27 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: >>> Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now: >>> >>> - should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size? >>> - should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able >>> ? use cases? >>> - should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin? >>> >>> There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we >>> answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, >>> I think. >>> >> >>The answer to the first is another set of questions: >> >>- Do we still have areas of the world where a livecd will work in a >>computer but either burning or booting from livedvds or liveusb is >>infeasible? > > Does the move from i586 to i686 eliminate the cd only machines anyway? No, i686 goes back to the Pentium Pro where there where no DVD readers at all. From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Aug 6 18:29:47 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:29:47 -0400 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1249583387.1601.180.camel@planemask> On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 18:26 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: > > > > I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we > > don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic > > already. > > OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other > applications, making the choice easier. > > ...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it > mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and > so on. That 'not cool' argument would apply equally well to abiword, no ? What kind of desktop integration are you missing ? I certainly think that we should include OpenOffice once we drop size constraints that make it impossible. It does not make much sense to have one office app on the live cd and another one on other installs. That is just confusing. If we are serious about OpenOffice being the preferred office suite for Fedora, we should either provide it out of the box, or make it very easy to get it after doing an install. Matthias From 123mizan at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 00:13:51 2009 From: 123mizan at gmail.com (M Yakub Mizan) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 06:13:51 +0600 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A7B06A1.4000805@gmail.com> References: <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> <20090806162715.GA11955@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4A7B06A1.4000805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7fc906ca0908061713v503aafb4l474267c84824cc00@mail.gmail.com> thats right! Live spin should not more than cd size. Most ppl in my country do not have enough bandwidth to download a dvd. Thats equall true for most developing countres? **So, dont make it hard for us to get fedora** thoug we can collect the dvd from local vendor but its month after a release!! Do u expect at 17KB/s i will be able to download a dvd?? On 8/6/09, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On 08/06/2009 09:27 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: >> Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger at gmail.com) said: >>> But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion >>> about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the >>> requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. Is openoffice >>> a requirement for that audience? >> >> Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now: >> >> - should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size? >> - should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able >> use cases? >> - should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin? >> >> There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we >> answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, >> I think. >> > > The answer to the first is another set of questions: > > - Do we still have areas of the world where a livecd will work in a > computer but either burning or booting from livedvds or liveusb is > infeasible? > - Do we still want the desktop spin to be the default download option on > get-fedora? > > As long as those two hold true, the desktop spin must be limited to a > single CD in size. Note that the first of those questions needs to be > addressed to a wider audience than the desktop team but the second is > within the desktop team's control. > > -Toshio > > From 123mizan at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 00:15:05 2009 From: 123mizan at gmail.com (M Yakub Mizan) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 06:15:05 +0600 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <4A7B06A1.4000805@gmail.com> References: <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> <4A7B02A5.6010909@gmail.com> <20090806162715.GA11955@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4A7B06A1.4000805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7fc906ca0908061715w3741642cn5c70dc05b211bb84@mail.gmail.com> thats right! Live spin should not more than cd size. Most ppl in my country do not have enough bandwidth to download a dvd. Thats equall true for most developing countres? **So, dont make it hard for us to get fedora** thoug we can collect the dvd from local vendor but its month after a release!! Do u expect at 17KB/s i will be able to download a dvd?? On 8/6/09, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On 08/06/2009 09:27 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: >> Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger at gmail.com) said: >>> But I think this line of discussion isn't as productive as discussion >>> about splitting the two targets of the current desktop spin and what the >>> requirements might be for having a successful demo-spin. Is openoffice >>> a requirement for that audience? >> >> Well, I think this thread has conflated a few issues by now: >> >> - should the desktop spin be limited to a single CD in size? >> - should the desktop spin have best of breed apps for any demo-able >> use cases? >> - should we highlight these on fp.o, instead of doing a spin? >> >> There's probably some others that I've missed. But until we >> answer the first, we can't really logically work on the second, >> I think. >> > > The answer to the first is another set of questions: > > - Do we still have areas of the world where a livecd will work in a > computer but either burning or booting from livedvds or liveusb is > infeasible? > - Do we still want the desktop spin to be the default download option on > get-fedora? > > As long as those two hold true, the desktop spin must be limited to a > single CD in size. Note that the first of those questions needs to be > addressed to a wider audience than the desktop team but the second is > within the desktop team's control. > > -Toshio > > From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Aug 7 06:03:07 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:03:07 +0300 Subject: Dropping Gimp from the live cd In-Reply-To: <1249583387.1601.180.camel@planemask> References: <1249411877.1543.12.camel@planemask> <4A792DF9.6020806@nicubunu.ro> <1249475848.1483.1.camel@planemask> <4A798E2E.8000104@nicubunu.ro> <944j75d4frlv226kb1vgn8ctg9hn3qmh0a@4ax.com> <20090805141851.GN3510@localhost.localdomain> <4A79B5A5.3040601@gmail.com> <1249562858.1608.5.camel@planemask> <4A7AF619.6020407@nicubunu.ro> <1249583387.1601.180.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4A7BC39B.5040501@nicubunu.ro> On 08/06/2009 09:29 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 18:26 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: >> On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: >>> >>> I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we >>> don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic >>> already. >> >> OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other >> applications, making the choice easier. >> >> ...and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it >> mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and >> so on. > > That 'not cool' argument would apply equally well to abiword, no ? But Abiword is very small in comparison and it looks more like a GNOME application (disclaimer: I use OOo for its features) > What kind of desktop integration are you missing ? Things like the Print dialog. > I certainly think that we should include OpenOffice once we drop size > constraints that make it impossible. It does not make much sense to have > one office app on the live cd and another one on other installs. That is > just confusing. +1 > If we are serious about OpenOffice being the preferred office suite for > Fedora, we should either provide it out of the box, or make it very easy > to get it after doing an install. Considering its size, for those needing OOo the install DVD is a better options (and after install the updates will go smoothly with deltarpms). -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From vaeood at yahoo.com Fri Aug 7 11:29:08 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 04:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: <20090806160041.0D26761AB06@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <983010.77653.qm@web111612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Guys, I am not sure that dropping GIMP is a very good idea. There are a lot of other things that can be dropped. By the way, the live CD should contain only basic trends in applications. A few weeks ago the talk was going on about cluttered desktop. One of the reasons people make cluttered desktop is because they do not know what to install and what not to install, and what to install after what. GIMP is basic image processing under Linux. Why don't you drop the StarDict for example. I cannot add custom dictionaries to it, I cannot add and remove words from it, and nowhere on the internet could I find what is the DB format (dict maybe) and how can one add custom dictionaries to it without reading half of the wikipedia before that. AbyWord is making errors as well. Try to insert a symbol in AbyWord for example. GIMP is O.K. Best regards. ? --- On Thu, 8/6/09, fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com wrote: From: fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 9 To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 4:00 PM Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to ??? fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? fedora-desktop-list-owner at redhat.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd (Matthias Clasen) ???2. Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd (Matthias Clasen) ???3. Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd (Bill Nottingham) ???4. Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd (Matej Cepl) ???5. Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd (Nicu Buculei) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:46:16 -0400 From: Matthias Clasen Subject: Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1249562776.1608.3.camel at planemask> Content-Type: text/plain On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 11:26 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 14:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > The live cd has a very hard time shrinking below 700M, and it is not > > going to get better when it switches to use a dracut initrd. > > > > One way to make sufficient room on the live cd would be to drop Gimp. > > > > This has been proposed independently, on the grounds that it is not a > > very good fit for the live cd audience anyway (where we probably at most > > need the occasional photo touch ups), and its UI is somewhat > > unconventional. > > > > There is probably not going to be any alternative to this step, due to > > the hard size limits, but I'd like to give people a chance to comment > > first, anyway. So, comments ? > > Would dropping just the gimp user docs, or the extra data be enough? > Those were already gone. And it was not enough. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:47:38 -0400 From: Matthias Clasen Subject: Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1249562858.1608.5.camel at planemask> Content-Type: text/plain On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 09:49 +0000, Matej Cepl wrote: > Toshio Kuratomi, Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:39:01 -0700: > > I don't think Nicu and Gerd are talking so much about random features > > that random users want to try... I think they're talking more about the > > best of breed software and "killer apps" that allow people to see the > > quality of programs written via a free software approach.? In this vein, > > GIMP and firefox are both projects that are showcase pieces.? They show > > people that free software can be quality software that is a valid > > alternative to proprietary offerings from Adobe and Microsoft. > > Well, if we want to follow this logic, than we should throw a lot of > stuff before removing OpenOffice.org from it, right? > Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso size up to 825M. Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up to 820M. This is without any openoffice lang packs. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:54:51 -0400 From: Bill Nottingham Subject: Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Message-ID: <20090806135451.GC8712 at nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Paul W. Frields (stickster at gmail.com) said: > > Some best-of-breed open source stuff like puppet, or apache, > > or doesn't really lend itself to a > > demo-ware spin. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't/couldn't have one, > > but it's not going to be a full best-of-breed of what Fedora can do. > > Is there any appeal in doing something more useful with > start.fedoraproject.org, the default browser home page?? Such as > putting a few best of breed apps on the page, with links to the latest > builds that PK can install at a click? See bug 315171; there's been ideas floated in this space for a while, but there just haven't been people with time to take the ball and run with it. If there are people on this thread who want to tackle these sorts of thing and have the time to do it (I think we've sort of conclusively proven that the base development & packaging people don't, unfortunately), I'm all for it. Bill ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 14:54:10 +0000 (UTC) From: Matej Cepl Subject: Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Matthias Clasen, Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:47:38 -0400: >> Well, if we want to follow this logic, than we should throw a lot of >> stuff before removing OpenOffice.org from it, right? >> > Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso size up > to 825M. > > Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up to > 820M. > > This is without any openoffice lang packs. I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic already. Mat?j ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 18:26:17 +0300 From: Nicu Buculei Subject: Re: Dropping Gimp from the live cd To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <4A7AF619.6020407 at nicubunu.ro> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 08/06/2009 05:54 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: > > I know and I am not fighting for OOo inclusion, just showing that we > don't follow "make the most useful and shiny apps available" logic > already. OOo is so big so it is an exception, is it or *several* other applications, making the choice easier. ....and it can be argued OOo is not "cool", is "useful", you do with it mostly boring stuff. It is also not integrated well in the desktop and so on. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ -- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list End of Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 9 ************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Aug 7 16:00:20 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:00:20 -0700 Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: <983010.77653.qm@web111612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <983010.77653.qm@web111612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1249660820.3759.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-07 at 04:29 -0700, Hristo Petkov wrote: > There are a lot of other things that can be dropped. If you're going to make statements like that, you're going to have to provide a patch or a list of those "other things" that can be dropped that will match the space savings of dropping gimp. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Aug 7 16:53:02 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 12:53:02 -0400 Subject: Fit and Finish, round three: peripherals Message-ID: <1249663982.2242.7.camel@planemask> Hi all, time for another 'Fit and Finish' test day. This time, we want to look at issues and use cases surrounding anything you can plug into your computer, be it a camera, a phone, a usb stick, or whatever gizmos you have at home... Join us in #fedora-fit-and-finish on Freenode, on Aug 11 (next Tuesday). For more information about this test day, see http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-08-04_Fit_and_Finish:Peripherals For more information about 'Fit and Finish', see http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish Matthias From vaeood at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 17:31:43 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 10:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fedora-desktop-list In-Reply-To: <20090808160034.B5FED61A1F2@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <939317.58732.qm@web111610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi all, In my view it doesn't matter what exactly is on the live CD - a kernel with a Desktop GUI and Internet browser and connection are more than enough. The most important think is how the user is going to proceed after installing Linux. After installing the live CD on the harddisk the user shall get knowing somehow that the first thing to do next is neither AbyWord nor GIMP, nor Movie Player but rather to place properly ALL of its computer hardware. Everything needing a plugin of any third parties, not supported by Open Source should be installed and the contradictions with SELinux resolved ad hoc. Some of the things on the live CD may be omitted to release a space of 100-150 kb to place there a video with instructions and presentation how to proceed further. As far as GIMP is concerned, the GIMP itself may be reduced on the live CD to a basic GUI and some basic image processing. People who intent to use GIMP may install whatever they like in addition. Regards --- On Sat, 8/8/09, fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com wrote: From: fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 11 To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 4:00 PM Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to ??? fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? fedora-desktop-list-owner at redhat.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Re: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 9 (Jesse Keating) ???2. Fit and Finish, round three: peripherals (Matthias Clasen) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:00:20 -0700 From: Jesse Keating Subject: Re: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 9 To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Message-ID: <1249660820.3759.113.camel at localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Fri, 2009-08-07 at 04:29 -0700, Hristo Petkov wrote: > There are a lot of other things that can be dropped. If you're going to make statements like that, you're going to have to provide a patch or a list of those "other things" that can be dropped that will match the space savings of dropping gimp. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/attachments/20090807/8baf4277/attachment.bin ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 12:53:02 -0400 From: Matthias Clasen Subject: Fit and Finish, round three: peripherals To: fedora-test-list at redhat.com,??? Discussions about development for the ??? Fedora desktop??? , ??? Development ??? discussions related to Fedora Core??? Cc: davidz at redhat.com Message-ID: <1249663982.2242.7.camel at planemask> Content-Type: text/plain Hi all, time for another 'Fit and Finish' test day. This time, we want to look at issues and use cases surrounding anything you can plug into your computer, be it a camera, a phone, a usb stick, or whatever gizmos you have at home... Join us in #fedora-fit-and-finish on Freenode, on Aug 11 (next Tuesday). For more information about this test day, see http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-08-04_Fit_and_Finish:Peripherals For more information about 'Fit and Finish', see http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish Matthias ------------------------------ -- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list End of Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 11 *************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 18:59:48 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 14:59:48 -0400 Subject: Packages loaded into Fedora by default In-Reply-To: References: <20090808164427.GA10893@deathray.ianweller.org> <1249769849.2718.2.camel@thunder> Message-ID: <20090809185948.GG18127@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, Aug 09, 2009 at 11:30:18AM -0400, Paul Frields wrote: > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Eric > Christensen wrote: > > On Sat, 2009-08-08 at 14:41 -0400, Paul Frields wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Ian Weller wrote: > >> > On Fri, Aug 07, 2009 at 03:15:00PM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote: > >> >> How do we ask for certain document guides to be loaded into the system > >> >> by default and do we have any guides that need to be in the default > >> >> install? > >> >> > >> > I believe that's called "comps". > >> > http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/comps/ > >> > > >> > I'm not really sure about the process of adding a package to comps. Best > >> > way to find out, I think, would be to nab someone from FESCo. ;) > >> > >> Which docs do you want loaded automatically? ?I ask because if we're > >> thinking of loading something like release notes, then we should > >> probably obsolete and retire the fedora-release-notes package for > >> F-12. > >> > >> Paul > >> > > > > Hadn't really considered loading anything automatically. ?Someone asked > > me a few months back and I had written the question in my notes but > > couldn't remember getting the answer. > > > > Yeah, we need to get the Release Notes stuff straightened out. > > Here by "automatically" I meant "by default," so I'm asking about the > same docs you're talking about . ;-) Sorry for the confusion. Which > packages, in other words, are you considering adding to comps? Also, I wanted to point out that if you want to retire fedora-release-notes, the sooner the better, especially since the Desktop SIG has to consider eliminating things from the Live spin each release due to space constraints. The fedora-release-notes package is fairly sizable IIRC, and this time around The GIMP is on the chopping block. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From oget.fedora at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 23:26:39 2009 From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 19:26:39 -0400 Subject: FedoraStudio: the final step Message-ID: Hello everyone, (If you don't own a multimedia package you can skip this thread) This is a call for help for adjusting the .desktop files of your multimedia applications according to the new FedoraStudio feature [1]. For those who missed the news, with F-12 we will have an optional multimedia-menus package that will subcategorize the Sound&Video menu in Gnome (Multimedia menu in KDE). This package is currently geared towards multimedia creation folks, however this target audience may be expanded in the future to meet the demand. To place the applications in the proper category, the .desktop files need to have proper categories listed. Since I am a (co)maintainer of most audio creation packages in Fedora, I have finished most of the required work. However there are a few packages left that need to be addressed. So please follow the link [2] and check if your multimedia package meets the criteria for any of the submenus we will have. If you have any questions, do not hesitate to contact me. I will do a final check around September 8th, about two weeks before the beta freeze and fix the remaining .desktop files. Also let me know if you don't want your package to be touched. Thanks for your time! Orcan PS: Adjusting your .desktop file with this specification will not change the experience of anyone who doesn't have the multimedia-menus package installed. Your application will be still in the Sound&Video/Multimedia desktop menu as long as you have "AudioVideo" listed as a category in your .desktop file. [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraStudio [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraStudio#Outline From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Sun Aug 9 18:47:52 2009 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 21:47:52 +0300 Subject: Adding system-wide icons to the desktop? Message-ID: <20090809184752.GA17037@victor.nirvana> Hi, is there a way to add some more icons to the users' desktop? I once tried sabayon (end of 2008?) but it was not working at that time and in general I prefer not to overwrite user folders/files at each login. I'd prefer a solution like some entry under /etc/gconf. Thanks! -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vaeood at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 21:58:04 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 14:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Live CD Message-ID: <540588.6629.qm@web111603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi all, The live CD is O.K. as it is. A flash movie with instructions my be added to the Cover Page of Fedora Project, which is opened by the web browser upon starting. A hyperlink to the movie is enough. The browser will 'blackmail' the user to install the flash player and after that the user will be able to watch the movie. A classification of the users may be done as well. If you are Intel Centrino Duo Mobile Laptop watch this ... If you are 8 processor workstation watch this ... If you are Desktop PC watch this ... and so on. The problem is if the user instead of going to the web browser goes to the system terminal or to the package installer, but in that case he most probably will not need to watch the movie with instructions I suppose. The Live CD will remain at the present state as it is, without any change. Best regards Hristo Petkov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Aug 11 03:21:49 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 23:21:49 -0400 Subject: Reminder: fit and finish test day tomorrow Message-ID: <1249960909.1750.3.camel@planemask> Just a quick reminder: We are meeting tomorrow in #fedora-fit-and-finish on freenode to test how well F12 works with phones, music players, cameras, usb sticks and other things you care to plug into your computer. See http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-08-04_Fit_and_Finish:Peripherals Live cds are available on that page now. See you tomorrow, Matthias From rdieter at math.unl.edu Wed Aug 12 15:16:30 2009 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:16:30 -0500 Subject: poppler-data reviewed, built for rawhide Message-ID: fyi, poppler-data review finished, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=507675 and built for rawhide, http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1576318 I suppose we could add a dep for it to poppler now (like how it was bundled with poppler pkgs in previous releases)... or not, it's optional after all. Alternatively, since it helps certain only certain locales/encodings, could add it to the appropriate CJK and Cyrillic related lang-support groups in comps. thoughts? -- Rex From debarshi.ray at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 19:32:33 2009 From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 01:02:33 +0530 Subject: XCF Pixbuf Loader Message-ID: <3170f42f0908121232m1bffd6f2rf7c266c0f6f5161@mail.gmail.com> http://blog.reblochon.org/2009/03/gift-to-competition.html Is it a good idea to package it? Or has it been intentionally been kept out due to other plans? Cheers, Debarshi -- One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an imaginary part. -- Andrew Koenig From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Aug 12 22:36:32 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:36:32 +0100 Subject: XCF Pixbuf Loader In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0908121232m1bffd6f2rf7c266c0f6f5161@mail.gmail.com> References: <3170f42f0908121232m1bffd6f2rf7c266c0f6f5161@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1250116593.2022.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 01:02 +0530, Debarshi Ray wrote: > http://blog.reblochon.org/2009/03/gift-to-competition.html > > Is it a good idea to package it? Or has it been intentionally been > kept out due to other plans? Very good idea. And then I can file bugs that it doesn't read my 10-year old XCFs from GNOME 1.x :) From davidz at redhat.com Thu Aug 13 18:28:51 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 14:28:51 -0400 Subject: Roles and Policy Message-ID: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hey, I've just added a new subpackage in the polkit SRPM called polkit-desktop-policy. This package will add two new system groups (the trailing _r signifies these are really roles, not ordinary groups) - desktop_admin_r - desktop_user_r The patch is here http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/devel/polkit/polkit.spec?r1=1.8&r2=1.9 It works like this 1. If the desktop_admin_r group is non-empty, then users in the group are used for administrator authentication - see the polkit(8) man page for details: http://hal.freedesktop.org/docs/polkit/polkit.8.html If the desktop_admin_r group is empty, we just ask for the root password instead. For example, the following is a screenshot where the users davidz and bateman are in the desktop_admin_r group: http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/pkexec-with-desktop-admin-r.png 2. Second, if you are member of the desktop_admin_r group, then you should be allowed to do a lot of things without being interrupted by authentication dialogs. This part isn't complete, for now, it includes org.gnome.clockapplet.mechanism.* - set timezone and system time org.freedesktop.devicekit.disks.* - all storage related things org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1.* - run real-time processes but we probably want to allow installing trusted packages, install trusted updates and remove packages. Without asking for a password. Probably more - Richard? 3. Third, if you are a member of the desktop_user_r group then you should be allowed to do a number of things - not as much as the desktop_admin_r role, but things like setting the time zone. For now, we only include org.gnome.clockapplet.mechanism.settimezone A couple of notes - As we add/remove mechanisms (e.g. privileged apps using polkit), we need to update this package. That's fine. - For this to be really useful, we need the User Account Editor that Matthias wrote about here https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-May/msg00006.html Sadly no work has been done on this yet. Anyway, the main point is that we can add something like this Account Type (*) Standard User ( ) Administrative User to this tool. We can also add more roles, e.g. "Restricted User" and also tailor policy for the mythical guest account. - This is opt-in. If you don't want to use this, just don't add any users to the desktop_admin_r or desktop_user_r groups. Heck, just uninstall the package. Second, other third-party packages can easily override this thanks to how the polkit local authority works (see the pklocalauthority(8) man page for details). - This should put an end to the (IMO misguided) request "please add first user to the 'wheel' group". The new 'wheel' is 'desktop_admin_r' and the new sudo(1) is pkexec(1). (Of course sudo(1) will still continue to work but it is not what we officially want to support. PolicyKit is, however) - With support in the OS installer for automatically adding the first user to desktop_admin_r, we should be close to actually doing installs without the concept of a root password... Of course this is not 100% useful until a) the OS installer knows about this; and b) we have an User Account Editor. But it is 90% there. Finally, Matthias, can someone please add polkit-desktop-policy to the default desktop install? Thanks. David From mzerqung at 0pointer.de Thu Aug 13 18:55:42 2009 From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:55:42 +0200 Subject: Roles and Policy In-Reply-To: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090813185542.GA30794@tango.0pointer.de> On Thu, 13.08.09 14:28, David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) wrote: > 2. Second, if you are member of the desktop_admin_r group, then you > should be allowed to do a lot of things without being interrupted > by authentication dialogs. This part isn't complete, for now, it > includes > > org.gnome.clockapplet.mechanism.* - set timezone and system time > org.freedesktop.devicekit.disks.* - all storage related things > org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1.* - run real-time processes rtkit should be accessible for normal desktop users already. Please move this to desktop_user_r! I am assuming that this makes only sense if the upstream policy files in the various packages are more strict by default than what is shopped in polkit-desktop-policy. Right? So, for a package that has used console-based auth by default before (like rtkit), how should their upstream policy files be changed? How does console-based auth and this new role-based out fit together? Lennart -- Lennart Poettering Red Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 From davidz at redhat.com Thu Aug 13 19:37:27 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:37:27 -0400 Subject: Roles and Policy In-Reply-To: <20090813185542.GA30794@tango.0pointer.de> References: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20090813185542.GA30794@tango.0pointer.de> Message-ID: <1250192247.10350.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 20:55 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: > On Thu, 13.08.09 14:28, David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) wrote: > > > 2. Second, if you are member of the desktop_admin_r group, then you > > should be allowed to do a lot of things without being interrupted > > by authentication dialogs. This part isn't complete, for now, it > > includes > > > > org.gnome.clockapplet.mechanism.* - set timezone and system time > > org.freedesktop.devicekit.disks.* - all storage related things > > org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1.* - run real-time processes > > rtkit should be accessible for normal desktop users already. Please > move this to desktop_user_r! > > I am assuming that this makes only sense if the upstream policy files > in the various packages are more strict by default than what is > shopped in polkit-desktop-policy. Right? Right. > So, for a package that has used console-based auth by default before > (like rtkit), how should their upstream policy files be changed? How > does console-based auth and this new role-based out fit together? I think it really depends. We've always wanted the defaults specified in the .policy files to, at least, be secure whilst also being usable. Now, with this role mechanism being available, we can be a bit more strict. For example, IIRC someones pet peeve was that we only required user authentication, not admin authentication, for changing the system time. He was concerned about some vague attack vector and log files and what not. So to avoid endless discussions like that we're now changing this to require admin authentication. Either way, allowing any user at the console to use rtkit seems fine to me so I would suggest not changing anything in rtkit. If people complain we can always just change things later (e.g. 1. a new rtkit release with other defaults in the .policy file; and 2. adding stuff for rtkit to polkit-desktop-policy). FWIW, this whole area is subject to much discussion - it's the classic example trading off security for usability - and vice versa. But I, for one, definitely want to move Fedora in a direction where there are fewer authentication dialogs. Hope this clarifies. David From walters at verbum.org Thu Aug 13 19:41:10 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:41:10 -0400 Subject: Roles and Policy In-Reply-To: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Hi, This sounds pretty cool. I'm interested in some details: On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 2:28 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > Hey, > > I've just added a new subpackage in the polkit SRPM called > polkit-desktop-policy. This package will add two new system groups (the > trailing _r signifies these are really roles, not ordinary groups) > > ?- desktop_admin_r > ?- desktop_user_r Are these defined by upstream PolicyKit? In other words, are these group names expected to be the same across OS vendors? Or just the concept of the two groups, and their names can vary? > ?1. If the desktop_admin_r group is non-empty, then users in the group > ? ?are used for administrator authentication - see the polkit(8) man > ? ?page for details: > > ? ? http://hal.freedesktop.org/docs/polkit/polkit.8.html > > ? ?If the desktop_admin_r group is empty, we just ask for the root > ? ?password instead. > > ? ?For example, the following is a screenshot where the users davidz > ? ?and bateman are in the desktop_admin_r group: > > ? ?http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/pkexec-with-desktop-admin-r.png > > ?2. Second, if you are member of the desktop_admin_r group, then you > ? ?should be allowed to do a lot of things without being interrupted > ? ?by authentication dialogs. This part isn't complete, for now, it > ? ?includes > > ? ? ?org.gnome.clockapplet.mechanism.* - set timezone and system time > ? ? ?org.freedesktop.devicekit.disks.* - all storage related things > ? ? ?org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1.* ? ?- run real-time processes > > ? ?but we probably want to allow installing trusted packages, install > ? ?trusted updates and remove packages. Without asking for a password. > ? ?Probably more - Richard? Hmmm. I very, VERY strongly think that installing OS updates should require no password by default in the unmanged case, and *especially* not a different "root" password. System time is probably in that area as well. If "make sound work without pops" requires the real-time process permission, then we definitely need that too. So it sounds like your desktop_admin_r is equivalent to the unmanaged case? And desktop_user_r is roughly...what? Computer lab? But admins there aren't going to want people to be able to change the time. > ?- This should put an end to the (IMO misguided) request "please add > ? first user to the 'wheel' group". The new 'wheel' is > ? 'desktop_admin_r' and the new sudo(1) is pkexec(1). See, this is what I don't like, is that "admin" here really means "execute arbitrary code as root" which I suggest we don't want to conflate with "install OS updates" and "make sound work without popping". > ?- With support in the OS installer for automatically adding the first > ? user to desktop_admin_r, we should be close to actually doing > ? installs without the concept of a root password... The most important thing is to remove the root password from the default UI flows, But for example, the first time you typed "pkexec vi /etc/resolv.conf" (i.e. do something arbitrary as uid 0) when you're debugging some network problem, it'd be cool if that prompted you for a root password. In fact, if one wasn't set yet, offered to let you set it. Then we could axe the root password from the livecd installer prompt, and it becomes on-demand. From postmaster at boxbe.com Thu Aug 13 19:41:18 2009 From: postmaster at boxbe.com (postmaster at boxbe.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 12:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Roles and Policy (Action Required) Message-ID: <192380575.774823.1250192478598.JavaMail.prod@app003.boxbe.com> Hello Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop, This message serves as notification that you will not receive any more courtesy notices from our members for two days. Messages you have sent will remain in a lower priority queue for our member to review at their leisure. Future messages will be more likely to be viewed if you are on our member's priority Guest List. Thank you, wieseltux23 at gmail.com About Boxbe This courtesy notice is part of a free service to make email more reliable and useful. Boxbe (http://www.boxbe.com) uses your existing social network and that of your friends to keep your inbox clean and make sure you receive email from people who matter to you. Boxbe: Say Goodbye to Email Overload Visit http://www.boxbe.com/how-it-works?tc=312975431_1094066229 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: David Zeuthen Subject: Re: Roles and Policy Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:37:27 -0400 Size: 3176 URL: From davidz at redhat.com Thu Aug 13 20:20:35 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 16:20:35 -0400 Subject: Roles and Policy In-Reply-To: References: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1250194835.10350.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 15:41 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > Are these defined by upstream PolicyKit? In other words, are these > group names expected to be the same across OS vendors? Or just the > concept of the two groups, and their names can vary? Not yet. We might want a polkit-policy tarballs that define these roles (and possibly others) and the associated policy. I fwd'ed the original mail to polkit-devel-list for other distros to consider this. > > but we probably want to allow installing trusted packages, install > > trusted updates and remove packages. Without asking for a password. > > Probably more - Richard? > > Hmmm. I very, VERY strongly think that installing OS updates should > require no password by default in the unmanged case, and *especially* > not a different "root" password. System time is probably in that area > as well. If "make sound work without pops" requires the real-time > process permission, then we definitely need that too. Right, so granting the authorization to install OS updates w/o a password for desktop_user_r and desktop_admin_r is what we want. > So it sounds like your desktop_admin_r is equivalent to the unmanaged > case? And desktop_user_r is roughly...what? Computer lab? But > admins there aren't going to want people to be able to change the > time. The idea is that desktop_admin_r is for the owner(s) of the system - for example, the owner of a single-user laptop. The idea is that desktop_user_r is a non-owner or otherwise less privileged/trusted - for example, your kids on the shared computer system at home. That's the _idea_ anyway. We might want to change this if we want to. > > - This should put an end to the (IMO misguided) request "please add > > first user to the 'wheel' group". The new 'wheel' is > > 'desktop_admin_r' and the new sudo(1) is pkexec(1). > > See, this is what I don't like, is that "admin" here really means > "execute arbitrary code as root" which I suggest we don't want to > conflate with "install OS updates" and "make sound work without > popping". Right, so we just give this authorization only to desktop_admin_r. E.g. allow standard users to install trusted OS updates. Ditto for the rtkit stuff. (And, btw, you _do need_ to enter the password for an admin user for 'pkexec bash' to work. Even if you are in desktop_admin_r. Ditto for installing untrusted/unsigned packages. And this is fine I think.) > > - With support in the OS installer for automatically adding the first > > user to desktop_admin_r, we should be close to actually doing > > installs without the concept of a root password... > > The most important thing is to remove the root password from the > default UI flows, But for example, the first time you typed "pkexec > vi /etc/resolv.conf" (i.e. do something arbitrary as uid 0) when > you're debugging some network problem, it'd be cool if that prompted > you for a root password. In fact, if one wasn't set yet, offered to > let you set it. Then we could axe the root password from the livecd > installer prompt, and it becomes on-demand. I think we want to completely disable the root account just like in OS X and Ubuntu. In my view, it just doesn't make sense to have a root password at all - shared secrets are really bad. One less password to worry about is really what you want. David From walters at verbum.org Thu Aug 13 21:24:43 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:24:43 -0400 Subject: Roles and Policy In-Reply-To: <1250194835.10350.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250194835.10350.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 4:20 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > The idea is that desktop_admin_r is for the owner(s) of the system - for > example, the owner of a single-user laptop. The idea is that > desktop_user_r is a non-owner or otherwise less privileged/trusted - for > example, your kids on the shared computer system at home. So my kids can't change the system time? I dunno. I think what we need here is a wiki page which takes the current set of PolicyKit actions (in the default desktop image only, i.e. not including say virt-manager), and puts those actions into one of your two suggested roles. If we're talking about kids, I'd probably be more concerned about usage-time limits or browser filtering, but neither of those fall under PolicyKit. > (And, btw, you _do need_ to enter the password for an admin user for > 'pkexec bash' to work. Even if you are in desktop_admin_r. Ditto for > installing untrusted/unsigned packages. And this is fine I think.) Right, OK. No strong opinion here on what those things should require; we could make installing unsigned packages require you to do a little dance in front of the webcam for all I care =) > I think we want to completely disable the root account just like in OS X > and Ubuntu. In my view, it just doesn't make sense to have a root > password at all - shared secrets are really bad. One less password to > worry about is really what you want. I don't disagree that a root password is dumb for the unmanaged case. But we do want to have a good story for people deploying computer labs, and at least this is where Ubuntu's original "use sudo for everything" kind of fails. Also important here is the scenario where a technical person maintains a friend's or family member's computer. It should be easy for them to enable the root account and use it to recover/administer the machine. From davidz at redhat.com Thu Aug 13 21:51:40 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:51:40 -0400 Subject: Roles and Policy In-Reply-To: References: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250194835.10350.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1250200300.10350.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 17:24 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 4:20 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > The idea is that desktop_admin_r is for the owner(s) of the system - for > > example, the owner of a single-user laptop. The idea is that > > desktop_user_r is a non-owner or otherwise less privileged/trusted - for > > example, your kids on the shared computer system at home. > > So my kids can't change the system time? I dunno. System time is sorta security sensitive so I'd rather they didn't. And Ideally we'd just use NTP - our NTP story is weak at best, unfortunately. > I think what we > need here is a wiki page which takes the current set of PolicyKit > actions (in the default desktop image only, i.e. not including say > virt-manager), and puts those actions into one of your two suggested > roles. Dunno if we need a wiki page - maybe we can just keep it in the spec file for now - otherwise it gets out of sync. Anyway, the point here is that it is _hard_ to figure out _how_ these two roles should work - or what roles we actually need. I guess we need to experiment a bit with this. I don't pretend to know. > If we're talking about kids, I'd probably be more concerned about > usage-time limits or browser filtering, but neither of those fall > under PolicyKit. Not directly, no. > > (And, btw, you _do need_ to enter the password for an admin user for > > 'pkexec bash' to work. Even if you are in desktop_admin_r. Ditto for > > installing untrusted/unsigned packages. And this is fine I think.) > > Right, OK. No strong opinion here on what those things should > require; we could make installing unsigned packages require you to do > a little dance in front of the webcam for all I care =) Again, this is security vs usability. The thinking here is that operations that effectively give you a root shell requires trusted path. E.g. 'pkexec bash', installing unsigned packages etc. fall into this category. So here you need to prove that you are the administrator - typically by entering a password but.. I guess.. pam_rps or some PAM module with a webcam and dance analyzing software works too. We also need this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfiQYRn7fBg ;-) > > I think we want to completely disable the root account just like in OS X > > and Ubuntu. In my view, it just doesn't make sense to have a root > > password at all - shared secrets are really bad. One less password to > > worry about is really what you want. > > I don't disagree that a root password is dumb for the unmanaged case. > But we do want to have a good story for people deploying computer > labs, and at least this is where Ubuntu's original "use sudo for > everything" kind of fails. Also important here is the scenario where > a technical person maintains a friend's or family member's computer. > It should be easy for them to enable the root account and use it to > recover/administer the machine. The root account can be enabled by doing 'passwd root' from a root shell obtained via 'pkexec bash' or booting into single user mode or booting with init=/bin/bash or whatever.... Either way, maybe we shouldn't worry about that until it's relevant... we still have lots of work to do. FWIW, I still disagree that the root password is what we want - in your usecase it is much better if the technical person just creates an user account on the system and adds that user to desktop_admin_r - that way he can login via ssh (using ssh keys) to that account instead of sending the root password through a lot of intermediate systems (albeit in a tunnel but MITM attacks aren't unheard of). David From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Aug 14 15:38:20 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 11:38:20 -0400 Subject: Printing test day coming up... Message-ID: <1250264300.1766.27.camel@planemask> Another week, another Fit and Finish test day. This time around, we want to look at printing. See http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-08-18_Fit_and_Finish:Printing Both Marek Kasik and Tim Waugh have kindly agreed to be around, so we'll have sufficient expertise for all of the printing stack. Drop in #fedora-fit-and-finish on Freenode on Tuesday, Aug 14, to join in the fun. Matthias From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Aug 14 17:14:17 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:14:17 -0400 Subject: Printing test day coming up... In-Reply-To: <1250264300.1766.27.camel@planemask> References: <1250264300.1766.27.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1250270057.1766.28.camel@planemask> On Fri, 2009-08-14 at 11:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Another week, another Fit and Finish test day. > This time around, we want to look at printing. > > See > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-08-18_Fit_and_Finish:Printing > > Both Marek Kasik and Tim Waugh have kindly agreed to be around, so we'll > have sufficient expertise for all of the printing stack. > > Drop in #fedora-fit-and-finish on Freenode on Tuesday, Aug 14, to join > in the fun. ...and of course, when I was talking about Aug 14, I meant Aug 18. Sorry, Matthias From mbarnes at redhat.com Sun Aug 16 10:31:30 2009 From: mbarnes at redhat.com (Matthew Barnes) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 06:31:30 -0400 Subject: Printing test day coming up... In-Reply-To: <1250264300.1766.27.camel@planemask> References: <1250264300.1766.27.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1250418690.12487.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-14 at 11:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Another week, another Fit and Finish test day. > This time around, we want to look at printing. > > See > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-08-18_Fit_and_Finish:Printing > > Both Marek Kasik and Tim Waugh have kindly agreed to be around, so we'll > have sufficient expertise for all of the printing stack. I can't tell from the wiki page whether this is also about the -content- of printouts from applications. The summary kind of implies it is, the test cases imply it isn't. Or is this week just about configuring and using a printer from the desktop? Matthew Barnes -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Aug 17 14:03:52 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:03:52 -0400 Subject: Printing test day coming up... In-Reply-To: <1250418690.12487.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1250264300.1766.27.camel@planemask> <1250418690.12487.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1250517832.20466.1.camel@planemask> On Sun, 2009-08-16 at 06:31 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-14 at 11:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Another week, another Fit and Finish test day. > > This time around, we want to look at printing. > > > > See > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-08-18_Fit_and_Finish:Printing > > > > Both Marek Kasik and Tim Waugh have kindly agreed to be around, so we'll > > have sufficient expertise for all of the printing stack. > > I can't tell from the wiki page whether this is also about the -content- > of printouts from applications. The summary kind of implies it is, the > test cases imply it isn't. Or is this week just about configuring and > using a printer from the desktop? I think looking at content at the same time makes a lot of sense. I just haven't gotten around to writing up test cases to cover that. Any proposals for what would be useful there ? I guess it would be interesting to see how evolution handles printing mails with attachments, e.g.... From hughsient at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 16:21:55 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 17:21:55 +0100 Subject: Roles and Policy In-Reply-To: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <15e53e180908170921p752259b7q3ff6849ccebbd642@mail.gmail.com> 2009/8/13 David Zeuthen : > ?1. If the desktop_admin_r group is non-empty, then users in the group > ? ?are used for administrator authentication - see the polkit(8) man > ? ?page for details: > ? ?http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/pkexec-with-desktop-admin-r.png Looks groovy. > ? ?but we probably want to allow installing trusted packages, install > ? ?trusted updates and remove packages. Without asking for a password. > ? ?Probably more - Richard? The policy definitions are listed here, http://cgit.freedesktop.org/packagekit/plain/policy/org.freedesktop.packagekit.policy.in along with rationale for each choice. Obvious ones to add to your list are: org.freedesktop.packagekit.package-install org.freedesktop.packagekit.system-update org.freedesktop.packagekit.system-sources-refresh org.freedesktop.packagekit.system-network-proxy-configure > ?- For this to be really useful, we need the User Account Editor that > ? Matthias wrote about here Yes, without a GUI, I don't think many people will know anything about desktop_admin_r, and just complain that PackageKit now asks for passwords a lot more than it used to. So, actions on my part: 1. Make the upstream packagekit policy actions more locked down 2. Add the 4 actions listed above to the PolicyKit rpm list 3. Profit? Richard. From davidz at redhat.com Mon Aug 17 16:33:56 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 12:33:56 -0400 Subject: Roles and Policy In-Reply-To: <15e53e180908170921p752259b7q3ff6849ccebbd642@mail.gmail.com> References: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <15e53e180908170921p752259b7q3ff6849ccebbd642@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1250526836.2777.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-08-17 at 17:21 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: > 2009/8/13 David Zeuthen : > > 1. If the desktop_admin_r group is non-empty, then users in the group > > are used for administrator authentication - see the polkit(8) man > > page for details: > > http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/pkexec-with-desktop-admin-r.png > > Looks groovy. > > > but we probably want to allow installing trusted packages, install > > trusted updates and remove packages. Without asking for a password. > > Probably more - Richard? > > The policy definitions are listed here, > http://cgit.freedesktop.org/packagekit/plain/policy/org.freedesktop.packagekit.policy.in > along with rationale for each choice. Obvious ones to add to your list > are: > > org.freedesktop.packagekit.package-install > org.freedesktop.packagekit.system-update > org.freedesktop.packagekit.system-sources-refresh > org.freedesktop.packagekit.system-network-proxy-configure Oh, you already seem to allow a lot of stuff out of the box. While neither of it looks like a root exploit maybe it would be wise to lock down further. So I think we should at least require admin auth for installing packages and messing around with configuring proxies. It is probably fine to still allow signed system updates. Or maybe that involves configuring proxies as well? I don't know. > > - For this to be really useful, we need the User Account Editor that > > Matthias wrote about here > > Yes, without a GUI, I don't think many people will know anything about > desktop_admin_r, and just complain that PackageKit now asks for > passwords a lot more than it used to. That's my concern too. Maybe just add it as a FAQ for PackageKit as also to the Fedora release notes. > So, actions on my part: > > 1. Make the upstream packagekit policy actions more locked down > 2. Add the 4 actions listed above to the PolicyKit rpm list > 3. Profit? Sounds like a plan. David From hughsient at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 16:47:57 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 17:47:57 +0100 Subject: Roles and Policy In-Reply-To: <1250526836.2777.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1250188131.10350.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <15e53e180908170921p752259b7q3ff6849ccebbd642@mail.gmail.com> <1250526836.2777.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <15e53e180908170947h6c0d64c6t4bbc33c1799e7c08@mail.gmail.com> 2009/8/17 David Zeuthen : > So I think we should at least require admin auth for installing packages > and messing around with configuring proxies. It is probably fine to > still allow signed system updates. Or maybe that involves configuring > proxies as well? I don't know. No configuring or changing, this method just allows the daemon to use the session proxy data. Richard. From mbarnes at redhat.com Tue Aug 18 02:57:23 2009 From: mbarnes at redhat.com (Matthew Barnes) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 22:57:23 -0400 Subject: Printing test day coming up... In-Reply-To: <1250517832.20466.1.camel@planemask> References: <1250264300.1766.27.camel@planemask> <1250418690.12487.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250517832.20466.1.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1250564243.7134.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-08-17 at 10:03 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > I think looking at content at the same time makes a lot of sense. I just > haven't gotten around to writing up test cases to cover that. Any > proposals for what would be useful there ? I guess it would be > interesting to see how evolution handles printing mails with > attachments, e.g.... It may be too late to write test cases now, but a basic smoke test of application content would be useful. Look for font issues, drawing issues (especially in tables and graphs), pagination issues, print settings not being honored, etc. Matthew Barnes -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From otaylor at redhat.com Mon Aug 24 03:36:00 2009 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 23:36:00 -0400 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects Message-ID: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> I just pushed a set of changes to the desktop-effects repository on fedorahosted to add support for GNOME Shell. The basic idea can be seen in the screenshot attached - instead of a single "Enable Desktop Effects" button, the user is now presented with a three-way choice of "Standard" "Compiz" and "GNOME Shell", with short explanations for each. As before the choice is instant-apply and when the user is switching to a compositor, they are presented with a count-down dialog that they have to click on to confirm their choice. UI suggestions, small and large, appreciated. The dialog will be split out of the compiz-gnome package into a separate package required by both compiz-gnome and gnome-shell. If compiz-gnome or gnome-shell is not installed the option is simply not shown. It would be neat to instead have a "Not installed. _Install Now_" message with a package-kit enabled link, but: A) I'd have to implement it B) I'm not completely sure that we want to make it quite that easy to try out GNOME Shell with out any context. If people have to read about it somewhere and install gnome-shell as a separate step, then they'll have the opportunity to get some context. C) I'd have to implement it Longer-term, maybe even in Fedora 13, the idea is that desktop-effects goes away. Switching between gnome-panel/metacity and gnome-shell will be done through standard GNOME dialogs, for as long as gnome-panel is still supported. gnome-shell won't have the inter-distribution differences that made a unified switcher to Compiz impossible. For Compiz, Fedora should stop using the GConf plugin and ship a Compiz that is more natively "Compiz" and uses the standard Compiz configuration tools. Presumably those tools already provide the opportunity to switch your session to use Compiz, if it is not currently running, or will do so in the future. - Owen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot-Desktop-Effects.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25359 bytes Desc: not available URL: From otaylor at redhat.com Mon Aug 24 03:47:46 2009 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 23:47:46 -0400 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1251085666.1145.154.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2009-08-23 at 23:36 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: > I just pushed a set of changes to the desktop-effects repository on > fedorahosted to add support for GNOME Shell. > > The basic idea can be seen in the screenshot attached - instead of a > single "Enable Desktop Effects" button, the user is now presented > with a three-way choice of "Standard" "Compiz" and "GNOME Shell", with > short explanations for each. As before the choice is instant-apply and > when the user is switching to a compositor, they are presented with a > count-down dialog that they have to click on to confirm their choice. > > UI suggestions, small and large, appreciated. > > The dialog will be split out of the compiz-gnome package into a > separate package required by both compiz-gnome and gnome-shell. Review request for the split-out package at: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=518900 - Owen From hughsient at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 07:45:32 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 08:45:32 +0100 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <15e53e180908240045r8f1e1b0x3eb26f27983fae48@mail.gmail.com> 2009/8/24 Owen Taylor : > ?A) I'd have to implement it const gchar *packages[] = {"gnome-shell", "gnome-shell-extras", NULL}; connection = dbus_g_bus_get (DBUS_BUS_SESSION, NULL); proxy = dbus_g_proxy_new_for_name (connection, "org.freedesktop.PackageKit", "/org/freedesktop/PackageKit", "org.freedesktop.PackageKit.Modify"); ret = dbus_g_proxy_call (proxy, "InstallPackageNames", &error, G_TYPE_UINT, xid, /* window xid, 0 for none */ G_TYPE_STRV, packages, G_TYPE_STRING, "show-confirm-search,hide-finished", G_TYPE_INVALID, G_TYPE_INVALID); if (!ret) { g_warning ("failed: %s", error->message); g_error_free (error); } Richard. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 26 17:38:42 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 23:08:42 +0530 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> On 08/24/2009 09:06 AM, Owen Taylor wrote: > I just pushed a set of changes to the desktop-effects repository on > fedorahosted to add support for GNOME Shell. > > The basic idea can be seen in the screenshot attached - instead of a > single "Enable Desktop Effects" button, the user is now presented > with a three-way choice of "Standard" "Compiz" and "GNOME Shell", with > short explanations for each. Why isn't this part of the appearance capplet instead of cluttering the long preferences menu? My preference menu doesn't even fit on the screen and I have to scroll to see all the items which is clumsy. Rahul From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Aug 26 20:43:05 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:43:05 -0400 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1251319385.1614.4.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 23:08 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 08/24/2009 09:06 AM, Owen Taylor wrote: > > I just pushed a set of changes to the desktop-effects repository on > > fedorahosted to add support for GNOME Shell. > > > > The basic idea can be seen in the screenshot attached - instead of a > > single "Enable Desktop Effects" button, the user is now presented > > with a three-way choice of "Standard" "Compiz" and "GNOME Shell", with > > short explanations for each. > > Why isn't this part of the appearance capplet instead of cluttering the > long preferences menu? My preference menu doesn't even fit on the screen > and I have to scroll to see all the items which is clumsy. We have not just removed irrelevant crap from the appearance capplet to make room for more.... This switching mechanism is temporary to facilitate trying out the shell while it is in beta. It will go away when the shell becomes the primary interface. Also, if you use the switch you are complaining about, your menu problems will be solved by way of the shell not having menus :-) Matthias From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 26 21:52:19 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 03:22:19 +0530 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <1251319385.1614.4.camel@planemask> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> <1251319385.1614.4.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4A95AE93.1090300@fedoraproject.org> On 08/27/2009 02:13 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > We have not just removed irrelevant crap from the appearance capplet to > make room for more.... > This switching mechanism is temporary to facilitate trying out the shell > while it is in beta. It will go away when the shell becomes the primary > interface. Considering that it serves a useful purpose even if it temporary and it is not irrelevant crap, it seems it would have fit into the appearance capplet rather than as a separate preferences menu item. It wouldn't bother me much if not for the fact that there is no categorization by default and it is long enough not to fit into my screen completely. That is a very visible item that needs improvement but I suppose the development is focused on GNOME Shell instead. > Also, if you use the switch you are complaining about, your menu > problems will be solved by way of the shell not having menus :-) I am not complaining about the switch itself but the placement of it. Using it btw just gives me a blank desktop and all I can is the desktop background and I have to restart X to get my session back. However gnome-shell --replace on the command line works and the shell still has menus in the side bar even though it seems to missing many application entries. I worked with the shell for a few days, the parts that work are very well done but there are still some obvious problems that make it hard to use it on a more permanent basis. I will keep a tab on it and write up the details if the issues I see linger. I understood from the comments on IRC in response to my post in fedora-test list about GNOME shell that you aren't keen to take bug reports just yet. Rahul From otaylor at redhat.com Thu Aug 27 16:18:41 2009 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:18:41 -0400 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1251389921.25174.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 23:08 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 08/24/2009 09:06 AM, Owen Taylor wrote: > > I just pushed a set of changes to the desktop-effects repository on > > fedorahosted to add support for GNOME Shell. > > > > The basic idea can be seen in the screenshot attached - instead of a > > single "Enable Desktop Effects" button, the user is now presented > > with a three-way choice of "Standard" "Compiz" and "GNOME Shell", with > > short explanations for each. > > Why isn't this part of the appearance capplet instead of cluttering the > long preferences menu? My preference menu doesn't even fit on the screen > and I have to scroll to see all the items which is clumsy. Well, a big reason for not doing that is that the "desktop-effects" functionality is not upstream and managing translations for something that is added to an existing component in a patch is really hard. It's much easier to simply have a separate repository and tarball (and now a separate package) that the Fedora translators can translate.) Why is it not upstream? - Neither Compiz nor GNOME Shell is part of a GNOME Release yet - Starting and configuring Compiz differs wildly between distributions, so coming up with a standard way to switch it has always been a problem. But in addition, I'm just not sure it makes sense to merge it into the appearance capplet: especially with the GNOME Shell addition to desktop effects, it's not a visual tweak - it's not about the appearance of your desktop; instead we are pretty fundamentally changing things about. So a separate tool makes sense to me. (And as people have said, it's temporary, while the appearance capplet is something that's going to stick around.) The name "Desktop Effects" obviously isn't very descriptive, but Fedora users will already be used to it in the context of "how do I switch to Compiz" and I don't immediately have a better name for what's going on. It's pretty hard to explain what we are replacing in user-friendly terms, since neither gnome-panel or the window manager is something that the user has any real idea about. - Owen From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 27 16:27:22 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 21:57:22 +0530 Subject: No MTA on the desktop Message-ID: <4A96B3EA.7040501@fedoraproject.org> Hi Short proposal: Sendmail is a daemon enabled by default forever and ever but it doesn't make much sense for the desktop and we should remove it for Fedora 12. This will save disk space and reduce startup time. Longer Story: For context, https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2009-August/msg00660.html A proposal has been made at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NoMTA That is going to go through FESCo and since it is past feature freeze, I think it makes sense for now to use ssmtp in the desktop kickstart file and drop sendmail. Will Woods confirmed that it wouldn't really break anything. Note that ssmtp doesn't queue mails but I don't think any mails send by cron is going to be either visible or useful for the desktop user. When I was maintaining the Xfce spin, we did replace sendmail with ssmtp http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob_plain;f=fedora-livecd-lxde.ks;hb=HEAD It's been a few releases since. LXDE spin is doing the same thing as well http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=blob_plain;f=fedora-livecd-lxde.ks;hb=HEAD Can the desktop team consider this? Rahul From hughsient at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 16:34:12 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:34:12 +0100 Subject: No MTA on the desktop In-Reply-To: <4A96B3EA.7040501@fedoraproject.org> References: <4A96B3EA.7040501@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <15e53e180908270934q12fa35e6s9e2f2adfa23088ce@mail.gmail.com> 2009/8/27 Rahul Sundaram : > Sendmail is a daemon enabled by default forever and ever but it doesn't > make much sense for the desktop and we should remove it for Fedora 12. > This will save disk space and reduce startup time. Please, please, do this for F12. There's just no point in an MTA for most of the desktop use cases. Richard. From otaylor at redhat.com Thu Aug 27 16:35:22 2009 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:35:22 -0400 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <4A95AE93.1090300@fedoraproject.org> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> <1251319385.1614.4.camel@planemask> <4A95AE93.1090300@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1251390922.25174.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-08-27 at 03:22 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 08/27/2009 02:13 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > > > We have not just removed irrelevant crap from the appearance capplet to > > make room for more.... > > > This switching mechanism is temporary to facilitate trying out the shell > > while it is in beta. It will go away when the shell becomes the primary > > interface. > > Considering that it serves a useful purpose even if it temporary and itt > is not irrelevant crap, it seems it would have fit into the appearance > capplet rather than as a separate preferences menu item. It wouldn't > bother me much if not for the fact that there is no categorization by > default and it is long enough not to fit into my screen completely. > That is a very visible item that needs improvement but I suppose the > development is focused on GNOME Shell instead. "Instead" here isn't really an appropriate characterization. It all fits together. In gnome-shell, you have two options for preferences: - they show up when searching - you can get to the "gnome-control-center" shell under the user status menu. We might not eventually be using something different from the current gnome-control-center, but the basic plan will be along those lines. > > Also, if you use the switch you are complaining about, your menu > > problems will be solved by way of the shell not having menus :-) > > I am not complaining about the switch itself but the placement of it. > Using it btw just gives me a blank desktop and all I can is the desktop > background and I have to restart X to get my session back. However > gnome-shell --replace on the command line works Does it fix itself if you wait long enough for desktop-effects to time out? (I think it's 35 seconds or so now ... give it a minute.) Can you file a bug about this against desktop-effects in Red Hat bugzilla (include information about your video card.). I don't have many immediate ideas why this could be happening, since all desktop-effects does is run 'gnome-shell --replace' but it definitely needs to be investigated. > and the shell still has menus in the side bar even though it seems > to missing many application entries. The missing applications was fixed shortly after 2.27.0 release; I'm really hoping to get through everything and have updated gnome-shell packages tomorrow. > I worked with the shell for a few days, the parts that work are > very well done but there are still some obvious problems that make it > hard to use it on a more permanent basis. I will keep a tab on it and > write up the details if the issues I see linger. I understood from the > comments on IRC in response to my post in fedora-test list about GNOME > shell that you aren't keen to take bug reports just yet. We certainly welcome bug reports, but: - For stuff that isn't packaging, we'd prefer upstream bug reports: if the reporter files the bug upstream themselves, they can check if it's a duplicate see previous discussion, get updates when it is fixed, etc. Which is not available if we are upstreaming the bug reports ourselves. - It's not too useful to have bug reports on 3 week old packages; I'm shooting for weekly releases, though so far I haven't come close to that. - Owen From walters at verbum.org Thu Aug 27 16:42:22 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:42:22 -0400 Subject: No MTA on the desktop In-Reply-To: <4A96B3EA.7040501@fedoraproject.org> References: <4A96B3EA.7040501@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Short proposal: > > Sendmail is a daemon enabled by default forever and ever but it doesn't > make much sense for the desktop and we should remove it for Fedora 12. > This will save disk space and reduce startup time. [...] > That is going to go through FESCo and since it is past feature freeze, I > think it makes sense for now to use ssmtp in the desktop kickstart file > and drop sendmail. Using ssmtp is not the same as "NoMTA", but it seems reasonable as an incremental step towards doing so. Can someone refresh my memory on what ssmtp will do if a user adds a custom cronjob? ssmtp without a configured host will be /dev/null? From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Thu Aug 27 17:16:55 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:16:55 +0200 Subject: No MTA on the desktop In-Reply-To: <15e53e180908270934q12fa35e6s9e2f2adfa23088ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A96B3EA.7040501@fedoraproject.org> <15e53e180908270934q12fa35e6s9e2f2adfa23088ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1251393415.2923.88.camel@localhost> Am Donnerstag, den 27.08.2009, 17:34 +0100 schrieb Richard Hughes: > 2009/8/27 Rahul Sundaram : > > Sendmail is a daemon enabled by default forever and ever but it doesn't > > make much sense for the desktop and we should remove it for Fedora 12. > > This will save disk space and reduce startup time. > > Please, please, do this for F12. There's just no point in an MTA for > most of the desktop use cases. Keep in mind that we need to also remove logwatch and all other cron jobs that rely on an installed MTA if we make this change. > Richard. Regards, Christoph From notting at redhat.com Thu Aug 27 17:18:33 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:18:33 -0400 Subject: No MTA on the desktop In-Reply-To: References: <4A96B3EA.7040501@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20090827171833.GB31801@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: > > That is going to go through FESCo and since it is past feature freeze, I > > think it makes sense for now to use ssmtp in the desktop kickstart file > > and drop sendmail. > > Using ssmtp is not the same as "NoMTA", but it seems reasonable as an > incremental step towards doing so. > > Can someone refresh my memory on what ssmtp will do if a user adds a > custom cronjob? ssmtp without a configured host will be /dev/null? Pretty sure, yes. Bill From vaeood at yahoo.com Mon Aug 31 09:06:58 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 02:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The MTA on Desktop Message-ID: <951331.29625.qm@web111609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi all, It is none of my business to comment this MTA, but in my view the space on the Live CD is the least problem. It is a matter of security. This MTA has nothing to do on the Desktop. Everything which is intended to ease the user sooner or later becomes a drawback... at least the experience shows this. Regrads -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 31 15:52:36 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 21:22:36 +0530 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <1251390922.25174.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> <1251319385.1614.4.camel@planemask> <4A95AE93.1090300@fedoraproject.org> <1251390922.25174.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A9BF1C4.9060701@fedoraproject.org> On 08/27/2009 10:05 PM, Owen Taylor wrote: > > Does it fix itself if you wait long enough for desktop-effects to time > out? (I think it's 35 seconds or so now ... give it a minute.) The switch took a long time before and since there was no progress indication of any sort, I assumed it was hung. Now it takes a shorter time with the recent set of updates. > The missing applications was fixed shortly after 2.27.0 release; I'm > really hoping to get through everything and have updated gnome-shell > packages tomorrow. Yep. That fixed the problem I was talking about. Thanks. I think there is somewhat of a lag. When I quit a application, the icon doesn't disappear immediately, when I delete some text, it still appears on the screen even though the editor itself does delete the text and so on. For linking from the release notes, I added some info to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/GNOME_Shell A review and more content would be useful. Rahul From otaylor at redhat.com Mon Aug 31 16:55:18 2009 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 12:55:18 -0400 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <4A9BF1C4.9060701@fedoraproject.org> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> <1251319385.1614.4.camel@planemask> <4A95AE93.1090300@fedoraproject.org> <1251390922.25174.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A9BF1C4.9060701@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1251737718.593.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-08-31 at 21:22 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 08/27/2009 10:05 PM, Owen Taylor wrote: > > > > > Does it fix itself if you wait long enough for desktop-effects to time > > out? (I think it's 35 seconds or so now ... give it a minute.) > > The switch took a long time before and since there was no progress > indication of any sort, I assumed it was hung. Now it takes a shorter > time with the recent set of updates. Unfortunately, there is no good way of getting progress indication - the compositor has control of the display, so if it hasn't finished starting, we can't show a dialog. > > The missing applications was fixed shortly after 2.27.0 release; I'm > > really hoping to get through everything and have updated gnome-shell > > packages tomorrow. > > Yep. That fixed the problem I was talking about. Thanks. I think there > is somewhat of a lag. When I quit a application, the icon doesn't > disappear immediately, when I delete some text, it still appears on the > screen even though the editor itself does delete the text and so on. Sounds like you have severe performance problems going on: - What video card? - Does compiz work well? > For linking from the release notes, I added some info to > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/GNOME_Shell > > A review and more content would be useful. Thanks! We'll take a look and see if we can enhance it a bit. - Owen From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 31 16:59:33 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:29:33 +0530 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <1251737718.593.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> <1251319385.1614.4.camel@planemask> <4A95AE93.1090300@fedoraproject.org> <1251390922.25174.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A9BF1C4.9060701@fedoraproject.org> <1251737718.593.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A9C0175.3020307@fedoraproject.org> On 08/31/2009 10:25 PM, Owen Taylor wrote: >> >> Yep. That fixed the problem I was talking about. Thanks. I think there >> is somewhat of a lag. When I quit a application, the icon doesn't >> disappear immediately, when I delete some text, it still appears on the >> screen even though the editor itself does delete the text and so on. > > Sounds like you have severe performance problems going on: > > - What video card? > - Does compiz work well? It is a Dell D420 box. http://www.smolts.org/client/show/pub_bfe9ff6f-dc6d-438f-ab34-fa62834f0da3 Compiz is ok. GNOME Shell isn't consistently bad either but I seem to have more of a lag. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 31 17:35:49 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 23:05:49 +0530 Subject: No MTA on the desktop In-Reply-To: References: <4A96B3EA.7040501@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4A9C09F5.5080703@fedoraproject.org> On 08/27/2009 10:12 PM, Colin Walters wrote: > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Rahul > Sundaram wrote: >> Hi >> >> Short proposal: >> >> Sendmail is a daemon enabled by default forever and ever but it doesn't >> make much sense for the desktop and we should remove it for Fedora 12. >> This will save disk space and reduce startup time. > > [...] > >> That is going to go through FESCo and since it is past feature freeze, I >> think it makes sense for now to use ssmtp in the desktop kickstart file >> and drop sendmail. > > Using ssmtp is not the same as "NoMTA", but it seems reasonable as an > incremental step towards doing so. So, is anyone opposed to this? Can I do it? Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 31 19:16:36 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 00:46:36 +0530 Subject: PackageKit command line plugin Message-ID: <4A9C2194.7000307@fedoraproject.org> Hi, First time I run a command for a package I don't have to install, I have to wait for a really long time for the whole file list to be downloaded. This is not really going to be a good first impression. Since this plugin is now by default in Rawhide, I was wondering if there was any plans to fix or workaround the problem. Rahul From hughsient at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 19:30:11 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:30:11 +0100 Subject: PackageKit command line plugin In-Reply-To: <4A9C2194.7000307@fedoraproject.org> References: <4A9C2194.7000307@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <15e53e180908311230rc4af505rba5b018b5079edd9@mail.gmail.com> 2009/8/31 Rahul Sundaram : > This is not really going to be a good first impression. Since this > plugin is now by default in Rawhide, I was wondering if there was any > plans to fix or workaround the problem. Yum has been fixed upstream. The next yum release will have this fix. See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=519264 for all the details. Richard. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 31 19:40:39 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 01:10:39 +0530 Subject: PackageKit command line plugin In-Reply-To: <15e53e180908311230rc4af505rba5b018b5079edd9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A9C2194.7000307@fedoraproject.org> <15e53e180908311230rc4af505rba5b018b5079edd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A9C2737.2030703@fedoraproject.org> On 09/01/2009 01:00 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: > 2009/8/31 Rahul Sundaram : >> This is not really going to be a good first impression. Since this >> plugin is now by default in Rawhide, I was wondering if there was any >> plans to fix or workaround the problem. > > Yum has been fixed upstream. The next yum release will have this fix. > See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=519264 for all the > details. Good to know, thanks. Rahul From mike at miketc.net Mon Aug 31 22:40:58 2009 From: mike at miketc.net (Mike Chambers) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:40:58 -0500 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <1251737718.593.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> <1251319385.1614.4.camel@planemask> <4A95AE93.1090300@fedoraproject.org> <1251390922.25174.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A9BF1C4.9060701@fedoraproject.org> <1251737718.593.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1251758458.1593.4.camel@scrappy.miketc.net> On Mon, 2009-08-31 at 12:55 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: > Sounds like you have severe performance problems going on: > > - What video card? > - Does compiz work well? GeForce 9500 GT Compiz doesn't work. I tried the gnome-shell as of few minutes ago, it turned black background with some writing at the top but nothing ever came in real clear and guess it never worked. It never did ask me if I could see anything or if it was ok to use. Maybe it's my card, not sure. I do know if I was on F11 and using the propr. driver from nvidia, compiz does work. So maybe I would have to use that for this as well? -- Mike Chambers Madisonville, KY From drago01 at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 22:48:44 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 00:48:44 +0200 Subject: GNOME Shell support in desktop-effects In-Reply-To: <1251758458.1593.4.camel@scrappy.miketc.net> References: <1251084960.1145.147.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A957322.7080807@fedoraproject.org> <1251319385.1614.4.camel@planemask> <4A95AE93.1090300@fedoraproject.org> <1251390922.25174.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A9BF1C4.9060701@fedoraproject.org> <1251737718.593.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1251758458.1593.4.camel@scrappy.miketc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Mike Chambers wrote: > On Mon, 2009-08-31 at 12:55 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: > >> Sounds like you have severe performance problems going on: >> >> ?- What video card? >> ?- Does compiz work well? > > GeForce 9500 GT > Compiz doesn't work. There is no 3D support for this card, which is required for both gnome-shell and compiz. You can get this by installing the binary driver thought.