From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Dec 1 17:36:38 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 17:36:38 +0000 Subject: getting gnome 2.29 into rawhide In-Reply-To: <1259603108.3311.1380.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1259598524.2487.97.camel@planemask> <1259603108.3311.1380.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1259688998.3311.1463.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-11-30 at 17:45 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Mon, 2009-11-30 at 11:28 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Hey gnome package owners, > > > > I normally take care of mass-pushing gnome devel snapshots into rawhide, > > but this time around, I want to refrain from doing that for now, since I > > am still on F-12 and focusing on bug-fixes there. > > > > So, if everybody can take care of their own packages this time around, > > that would be great. Alternatively, maybe someone wants to volunteer to > > do a mass-build for 2.29.3 ? > > I've updated GStreamer packages to the level of F12 in rawhide already. > > I'll try and go through the new packages tomorrow after I've made a > couple of upstream releases. Mostly done (just gnome-games to finish). I didn't touch the GNOME Office stuff, and gdm and gnome-desktop still need fixing (which I hope Ray will take care of). Thanks to Brian for fixing gedit. Cheers From vaeood at yahoo.com Tue Dec 1 18:58:15 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:58:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB card Message-ID: <665575.70154.qm@web111610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, In my view 1 GB is better for it is compatible with more of the older devices. Regards, Christo Petkov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Dec 3 04:43:19 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 23:43:19 -0500 Subject: upwards and onwards In-Reply-To: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> References: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1259815399.1203.4.camel@planemask> On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 10:24 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > - Include OpenOffice instead of abiword. OpenOffice is the premier open > source office suite, and abiword is on the current live CD purely for > size reasons. > > - Use shotwell as the default photo management app instead of gthumb. > This may be a bit of a surprise for some. Shotwell is a relatively new > application, that is in Fedora only since F12. I have mentioned it on > this list before. The 0.3.0 release that has just come out is very close > to the feature set that we'd ideally expect to have in a default photo > management app. It also starts very fast. > > - Remove remaining Bluecurve icons from fedora-gnome-theme. This will > probably leave some holes in the menus, and we'll need help from artists > to fill those. I have now made these changes in comps / spin-kickstarts, so that have some nightly spins before Fudcon to see how these changes look in practice - my own build with these changes came out around 850M. I didn't enact changes to cut the discussion short, though. I do think that the unified installer idea is interesting and should be explored further, maybe at Fudcon. Matthias From debarshi.ray at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 13:40:33 2009 From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 15:40:33 +0200 Subject: libopenraw Message-ID: <3170f42f0912060540g12e07f2ejd7bd18b247564c53@mail.gmail.com> I adopted the orphaned libopenraw package and am planning on updating it to 0.0.8 from 0.0.5. The most visible changes are that it is now LGPLv3+ and not LGPLv2+ and it provides a GdkPixbufLoader for RAW images. I am planning to put the GdkPixbufLoader into its separate subpackage (libopenraw-pixbuf-loader) depending on the base (libopenraw-package). The libopenraw-gnome will only depend on the base package. The GdkPixbufLoader is not perfect but it works if one explicitly creates a GdkPixbufLoader for the appropriate mimetype for the RAW image. Otherwise if a GdkPixbuf is directly created from a RAW file, somehow the TIFF loader tries to open it instead. Some bugs which might be of interest: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/25464 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/25368 I am putting it in Rawhide for the moment. Not sure whether to put into F11 or F12 because GThumb and the GNOME thumbnailer are using dcraw and ufraw respectively to handle RAW and I am unsure as to whether this will interfere in weird ways or not. Happy hacking, Debarshi -- One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an imaginary part. -- Andrew Koenig From awilliam at redhat.com Mon Dec 7 22:55:57 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:55:57 -0800 Subject: Fedora release criteria completely revised Message-ID: <076d60721cac4a9affc7c22ac0354c71@mailserver> During FUDCon, we've been working on revising the Fedora release criteria. John Poelstra had already fleshed out a structure and much of the final content, and we've been revising and tweaking it in conjunction with QA (myself, Will Woods and James Laska), release engineering (Jesse Keating), anaconda team (especially Denise Dumas and Peter Jones) and desktop team (Christopher Aillon and Matthias Clasen, who provided suggestions at an earlier stage). The new structure is based around a general page and specific pages for the Fedora 13 Alpha, Beta and Final releases (which have been written generically so they can easily be converted into pages for F14 and all future releases just by copying and pasting). You can find the criteria here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Release_Criteria https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Alpha_Release_Criteria https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Beta_Release_Criteria https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Final_Release_Criteria they should contain everything you need to know. We based most of the criteria around testing that was already being carried out but with no formal policy basis, with additional suggestions from the anaconda and desktop teams. We will follow these criteria for the Fedora 13 release process. So if you can see any problems or potential trouble with any of this, please do reply and let us know! Desktop team - can you please let us know of any additional things that you would expect to be working at each point during the release cycle? Note that only things that *must* be working at each point should be listed on these pages, not nice-to-haves. You must be able to commit to the idea that, if any criterion on the page is not met, we would slip the release in question. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Dec 7 23:08:46 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 04:38:46 +0530 Subject: deja-dup Desktop Backup tool Message-ID: <4B1D8AFE.3080309@fedoraproject.org> Hi, Are there any plans to include a good backup tool for the desktop by default? I have put up deja-dup for review if anyone is interested in checking it out https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=540761 Frontend for duplicity (which uses rsync library and gpg keys for encryption) written in Vala. It is a simple backup tool for GNOME and integrates with Nautilus bookmarks etc. Features: ? Support for local or remote backup locations, including Amazon S3 ? Securely encrypts and compresses your data ? Incrementally backs up, letting you restore from any particular backup ? Schedules regular backups ? Integrates well into your GNOME desktop Rahul From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Dec 8 01:22:48 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 20:22:48 -0500 Subject: deja-dup Desktop Backup tool In-Reply-To: <4B1D8AFE.3080309@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1D8AFE.3080309@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1260235368.1742.52.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 04:38 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > Are there any plans to include a good backup tool for the desktop by > default? I have put up deja-dup for review if anyone is interested in > checking it out > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=540761 > > Frontend for duplicity (which uses rsync library and gpg keys for > encryption) written in Vala. It is a simple backup tool for GNOME and > integrates with Nautilus bookmarks etc. > > Features: > > ? Support for local or remote backup locations, including Amazon S3 > ? Securely encrypts and compresses your data > ? Incrementally backs up, letting you restore from any particular backup > ? Schedules regular backups > ? Integrates well into your GNOME desktop I certainly consider the lack of integrated backup one of the more glaring holes in our desktop. For something to be included in the desktop spin, it needs to be really towards the dead-simple, plug-in-a-backup-disk side. Not sure how well deja-dup fits into that category, I've never tried it. But getting it packaged for Fedora is the right first step in any case. Thanks for doing that ! Matthias From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Dec 8 01:37:55 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 20:37:55 -0500 Subject: F13 sightings Message-ID: <1260236275.1742.65.camel@planemask> Most of the desktop team is still busy trying to dig out from under the abrt-induced bugslide...or put more positively, focusing on making F12 better. But nevertheless, some new things are happening in F13. Two things I wanted to point out here are a) Richard has landed the first release of his color calibration utility. Install gnome-color-manager to try it out. Over the next few days, we should also get the necessary integration landed, so that color profiles get automatically applied when you log in or plug in a monitor. b) David has built a snapshot of gnome-disk-utility that sports a greatly improved UI and a wealth of new features, from disk-benchmarking over RAID management to SAS expanders. The new gnome-disk-utility depends on the udisks package, which is the new, final name of DeviceKit-disks. Matthias From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 8 01:44:15 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:14:15 +0530 Subject: F13 sightings In-Reply-To: <1260236275.1742.65.camel@planemask> References: <1260236275.1742.65.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4B1DAF6F.4020703@fedoraproject.org> On 12/08/2009 07:07 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Most of the desktop team is still busy trying to dig out from under the > abrt-induced bugslide...or put more positively, focusing on making F12 > better. > > But nevertheless, some new things are happening in F13. Two things I > wanted to point out here are > > a) Richard has landed the first release of his color calibration > utility. Install gnome-color-manager to try it out. Over the next few > days, we should also get the necessary integration landed, so that color > profiles get automatically applied when you log in or plug in a monitor. > > b) David has built a snapshot of gnome-disk-utility that sports a > greatly improved UI and a wealth of new features, from disk-benchmarking > over RAID management to SAS expanders. The new gnome-disk-utility > depends on the udisks package, which is the new, final name of > DeviceKit-disks. If you want to add notes, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Alpha_release_notes Might also consider putting up feature pages Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 8 01:53:12 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:23:12 +0530 Subject: deja-dup Desktop Backup tool In-Reply-To: <1260235368.1742.52.camel@planemask> References: <4B1D8AFE.3080309@fedoraproject.org> <1260235368.1742.52.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4B1DB188.4080202@fedoraproject.org> On 12/08/2009 06:52 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > I certainly consider the lack of integrated backup one of the more > glaring holes in our desktop. For something to be included in the > desktop spin, it needs to be really towards the dead-simple, > plug-in-a-backup-disk side. Not sure how well deja-dup fits into that > category, I've never tried it. But getting it packaged for Fedora is the > right first step in any case. Thanks for doing that ! In case, you want to take a quick look, I have created a scratch build http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1861894 The upstream developer is now CC'ed in my review request. Rahul From hughsient at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 09:42:09 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:42:09 +0000 Subject: F13 sightings In-Reply-To: <1260236275.1742.65.camel@planemask> References: <1260236275.1742.65.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <15e53e180912080142m7ccf8229l215681a5054c402b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/8 Matthias Clasen : > a) Richard has landed the first release of his color calibration > utility. Install gnome-color-manager to try it out. Over the next few > days, we should also get the necessary integration landed, so that color > profiles get automatically applied when you log in or plug in a monitor. Yup, I've not yet been deluged with bugreports, so it's looking pretty stable, even with the "first release" label. If you do find a bug, there's a mailing list http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-color-manager-list which might be interesting to you. Bug reports (and patches if possible) are most welcome. Thanks. Richard. From hughsient at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 10:04:34 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:04:34 +0000 Subject: F13 sightings In-Reply-To: <4B1DAF6F.4020703@fedoraproject.org> References: <1260236275.1742.65.camel@planemask> <4B1DAF6F.4020703@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <15e53e180912080204k2a507607j37aae2ad67c85348@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/8 Rahul Sundaram : > Might also consider putting up feature pages As requested: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ColorManagement Richard. From walters at verbum.org Tue Dec 8 14:19:35 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:19:35 -0500 Subject: Fedora release criteria completely revised In-Reply-To: <076d60721cac4a9affc7c22ac0354c71@mailserver> References: <076d60721cac4a9affc7c22ac0354c71@mailserver> Message-ID: Hi Adam, Looks really great in general! One specific comment, for Final 9; I think we need a more specific definition of "and subsequent login". Does that mean that you just type your username/password and look at the default desktop? Are we scoping in any specific apps (firefox?) Under any specific use cases (websites, random plugins?). Any other apps? (I see just now someone else commented on this specific criteria, but instead asking about hardware). My take is we should just scope it to critpath (i.e. enough of the desktop to run packagekit), and have some sort of separate criteria/process for applications. On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > During FUDCon, we've been working on revising the Fedora release criteria. > John Poelstra had already fleshed out a structure and much of the final > content, and we've been revising and tweaking it in conjunction with QA > (myself, Will Woods and James Laska), release engineering (Jesse Keating), > anaconda team (especially Denise Dumas and Peter Jones) and desktop team > (Christopher Aillon and Matthias Clasen, who provided suggestions at an > earlier stage). > > The new structure is based around a general page and specific pages for the > Fedora 13 Alpha, Beta and Final releases (which have been written > generically so they can easily be converted into pages for F14 and all > future releases just by copying and pasting). You can find the criteria > here: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Release_Criteria > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Alpha_Release_Criteria > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Beta_Release_Criteria > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Final_Release_Criteria > > they should contain everything you need to know. We based most of the > criteria around testing that was already being carried out but with no > formal policy basis, with additional suggestions from the anaconda and > desktop teams. > > We will follow these criteria for the Fedora 13 release process. So if you > can see any problems or potential trouble with any of this, please do reply > and let us know! > > Desktop team - can you please let us know of any additional things that you > would expect to be working at each point during the release cycle? Note > that only things that *must* be working at each point should be listed on > these pages, not nice-to-haves. You must be able to commit to the idea > that, if any criterion on the page is not met, we would slip the release in > question. > -- > Adam Williamson > Fedora QA Community Monkey > IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org > http://www.happyassassin.net > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From davidz at redhat.com Tue Dec 8 20:42:43 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:42:43 -0500 Subject: Logging into GNOME as root Message-ID: <1260304963.1877.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hey, Despite our efforts, I still see a lot (or at least, more than I want) of bugs where users log into GNOME as root - typically through stuff like x11vnc or other sysadmin tools that bypasses gdm. Logging into GNOME as root is not really the best of ideas - I won't go into details here - I will just take it as a given that everyone agrees about about this. Anyway, one interesting side-effect is that polkit (now) says root is authorized for anything - so we get interesting bugs like all user-visible filesystems being automounted - normally this wouldn't happen because of our current policy is to only allow automounting of non-system-internal (which currently means only usb, firewire- and sdio-connected devices + optical discs) without interrupting the user to ask for his root password. For example, a typical case is that some person installs Fedora on a machine connected to a SAN and logs into GNOME as root. Now all the, say, 5,000 partitions visible from the SAN is automounted. This is typically not what the person logging in expected - in fact, such behavior may easily cause data-loss as another initiator on the SAN may have mounted one or more devices already. Actually, of course, the real bug GVfs fix is to be less cavalier about automounting - and that fix is already committed to GVfs and submitted as an GVfs update for F-12 (only ever automount usb, firewire, sdio, optical discs). Actually, the astute reader may note that this bugfix will become important for F-13 as we want users created in the default desktop OS to have more privileges cf. the "Roles and Policy" mail that I sent to this list in August 2009. So there's a couple of things here 1. Users will still log into GNOME as root no matter how loudly or how many times they are told not to do that. 2. I'm pretty sure the GVfs automounting bug is not unique here - there may be other things not working as expected. We should probably think about auditing the distro - e.g. we don't want to cause data loss even if people do things the OS is not designed for. 3. We probably need to do an even better job of discouraging people logging in as root - I'm thinking we should show a dialog explaining why this is bad and also show a red background or something. Or maybe refuse to start gnome-session altogether. Currently (rawhide) I don't get any warnings whatsoever if I log into VT1 as root on a machine in run level 3 and type 'startx'. I just get a stock GNOME desktop. Of course we could just say "don't use startx" but that's not how things work (since we still ship startx) and I don't see that changing. I don't regard "remove / neuter startx" as a fight worth fighting either. Thanks, David From duffy at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 8 18:22:07 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:22:07 -0500 Subject: F13 sightings In-Reply-To: <15e53e180912080142m7ccf8229l215681a5054c402b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1260236275.1742.65.camel@planemask> <15e53e180912080142m7ccf8229l215681a5054c402b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260296527.2139.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Richard, On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 09:42 +0000, Richard Hughes wrote: > Yup, I've not yet been deluged with bugreports, so it's looking pretty > stable, even with the "first release" label. If you do find a bug, > there's a mailing list > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-color-manager-list which > might be interesting to you. Bug reports (and patches if possible) are > most welcome. I was wondering - are the vendor-provided color profiles packageable? Do you know what the legalities are around that? Do they have licenses? Are they considered software? (I was thinking it would be sweet to install the color profiles via package kit rather than scour the web for them) Thanks, ~m From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Dec 9 07:19:59 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 09:19:59 +0200 Subject: Logging into GNOME as root In-Reply-To: <1260304963.1877.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1260304963.1877.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4B1F4F9F.5030309@nicubunu.ro> On 12/08/2009 10:42 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > 3. We probably need to do an even better job of discouraging > people logging in as root - I'm thinking we should show > a dialog explaining why this is bad and also show a red > background or something. Or maybe refuse to start gnome-session > altogether. I think the key here is warning but without getting too annoying. Refusing to start gnome-session will most likely make the person use another DE instead, Xfce or something. I think doing something like Windows XP is safe mode is OK: display a warning dialog after login (maybe go the extra mile and provide a checkbox "I uderstand I am doing, do not show it again") and a text (a watermark?) over the background with "you are running as root". > Currently (rawhide) I don't get any warnings whatsoever if I log > into VT1 as root on a machine in run level 3 and type 'startx'. I > just get a stock GNOME desktop. If someone goes to the steps of switching to run level 3 and running 'startx' by hand, you can assume he has a good understanding of what he's doing and will be able to bypass any blockers. > Of course we could just say "don't use startx" but that's not how > things work (since we still ship startx) and I don't see that > changing. I don't regard "remove / neuter startx" as a fight worth > fighting either. I agree, there are still legit uses for startx. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From hughsient at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 08:51:33 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:51:33 +0000 Subject: F13 sightings In-Reply-To: <1260296527.2139.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1260236275.1742.65.camel@planemask> <15e53e180912080142m7ccf8229l215681a5054c402b@mail.gmail.com> <1260296527.2139.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <15e53e180912090051m51e1f9bes54e2c2e1967df6d6@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/8 M?ir?n Duffy : > Hi Richard, > > On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 09:42 +0000, Richard Hughes wrote: >> Yup, I've not yet been deluged with bugreports, so it's looking pretty >> stable, even with the "first release" label. If you do find a bug, >> there's a mailing list >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-color-manager-list which >> might be interesting to you. Bug reports (and patches if possible) are >> most welcome. > > I was wondering - are the vendor-provided color profiles packageable? Do > you know what the legalities are around that? Do they have licenses? Are > they considered software? > > (I was thinking it would be sweet to install the color profiles via > package kit rather than scour the web for them) I'm already there: http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2009/12/08/shared-color-profiles/ Richard. From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Dec 9 15:40:52 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:40:52 +0000 Subject: HAL removal Feature page Message-ID: <1260373252.3311.2017.camel@localhost.localdomain> Heya, I've created this page to track the removal of HAL (hopefully) for F13: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/HalRemoval Could you please check your package and add them to the list if: - they rely on HAL or libhal - they rely on gnome-vfs2 (which still requires HAL, and is deprecated) - they rely on libgnomeui (which requires gnome-vfs2) We're only tracking Desktop spin applications, and applications you'd expect to see installed on GNOME desktops. Cheers From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Dec 9 17:25:25 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 09:25:25 -0800 Subject: Fedora release criteria completely revised In-Reply-To: <4B1E21E9.4060305@warmcat.com> References: <076d60721cac4a9affc7c22ac0354c71@mailserver> <4B1E21E9.4060305@warmcat.com> Message-ID: <1260379525.2412.1.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 10:52 +0100, Andy Green wrote: > On 12/07/09 23:55, Somebody in the thread at some point said: > > Hi - > > > these pages, not nice-to-haves. You must be able to commit to the idea > > that, if any criterion on the page is not met, we would slip the release in > > question. > > I think it's great you guys are looking to increase > Quality-with-a-capital-Q. > > ''9 There must be no SELinux 'AVC: denied' messages or abrt crash > notifications on initial boot and subsequent login'' > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Final_Release_Criteria > > It might be wise to specify on what particular set of test machines or > platforms you want to see not abrt stuff from. Because current F12 > kernels kill a 4-core box here and iwlagn gives abrt warnings on this > laptop, but it's still otherwise fine as a released kernel. > > It's not realistic to hold a release until the kernel never crashes on > any platform. Luckily, we have a tailor-made get-out clause for that one (actually I pointed out the same problem as you, and wrote it, shortly before FUDCon): https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Blocker_Bug_FAQ#What_about_hardware_and_local_configuration_dependent_issues.3F I'll turn that criterion into a 'in most cases' one with a link to that FAQ entry, as we did for the other similar criteria. Thanks. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Dec 9 17:27:29 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 09:27:29 -0800 Subject: Fedora release criteria completely revised In-Reply-To: References: <076d60721cac4a9affc7c22ac0354c71@mailserver> Message-ID: <1260379649.2412.2.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 09:19 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > Hi Adam, > > Looks really great in general! Thanks! > One specific comment, for Final 9; I > think we need a more specific definition of "and subsequent login". > Does that mean that you just type your username/password and look at > the default desktop? This is what it was intended to mean, actually running apps I would have defined as 'login and use'. How would you suggest wording a clarification? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Dec 9 21:45:21 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:45:21 -0500 Subject: Planning the accessibility stack rebase Message-ID: <1260395121.1747.59.camel@planemask> As some of you may know, the accessibility framework is getting ported from CORBA/ORBit to DBus [1]. The (ambitious) upstream plan is to have this transition completed in time for GNOME 2.30, ie within the F-13 timeframe. This is a big effort, and the accessibility guys need all the help they can get. To help with testing and feedback, I plan to get the new accessibility stack into rawhide in early January. I have done initial packages for the at-spi2 components [2], but they are not quite ready for prime time yet (they don't have the coexistence part entirely sorted out). Some details about the changes that coming: The CORBA-based at-spi package is being replaced by three components: at-spi2-core - protocol definitions and registry daemon at-spi2-atk - the atk-bridge GTK+ module pyatspi - Python bindings for at-spi There is no replacement for the cspi 'C bindings' at the moment. The current users of cspi are being ported to use D-Bus directly (mousetweaks) or replaced (gok being replaced by Caribou [3]). I am not sure about the porting status of dasher... To make the transition phase less painful, there are some efforts to allow the old and new stacks to coexist. The CORBA-based at-spi stuff will install its atk-bridge module and Python bindings somewhere else, and there will be a desktop file that sets the GTK_PATH environment variable and a pyatspi.pth Python module that sets some Python path. These path-tweaks will be triggered by a GConf key, allowing both stacks to be installed at the same time and allowing users and testers to switch back and forth between the stacks. It would be great if people who are interested in accessibility on Fedora could chime in and help with planning this to make the transition as smooth as it can. I'm sure there will be some bumps along the way anyway... Matthias PS Having written all this down, I realize that I should probably turn this into a feature page... [1] http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/accessibility/atk/at-spi/at-spi_on_d-bus [2] http://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=544628 http://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=544629 http://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=544630 [3] http://live.gnome.org/Caribou From vaeood at yahoo.com Thu Dec 10 08:17:29 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:17:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 70, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <20091209170034.F148961A79E@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <143492.88354.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, absolutely agree about that entering the system as root to do everyday routine works is not exactly reasonable behaviour. Entering the system in this way is something like destroying the firewall of your own castle just because you are the legal owner of the castle and you have the authorities to do that. Well, I am not going even to comment this. Regards, Christo Petkov --- On Wed, 12/9/09, fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com wrote: From: fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 70, Issue 6 To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 5:00 PM Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to ??? fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? fedora-desktop-list-owner at redhat.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Logging into GNOME as root (David Zeuthen) ???2. Re: F13 sightings (M?ir?n Duffy) ???3. Re: Logging into GNOME as root (Nicu Buculei) ???4. Re: F13 sightings (Richard Hughes) ???5. HAL removal Feature page (Bastien Nocera) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:42:43 -0500 From: David Zeuthen Subject: Logging into GNOME as root To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Message-ID: <1260304963.1877.7.camel at localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey, Despite our efforts, I still see a lot (or at least, more than I want) of bugs where users log into GNOME as root - typically through stuff like x11vnc or other sysadmin tools that bypasses gdm. Logging into GNOME as root is not really the best of ideas - I won't go into details here - I will just take it as a given that everyone agrees about about this. Anyway, one interesting side-effect is that polkit (now) says root is authorized for anything - so we get interesting bugs like all user-visible filesystems being automounted - normally this wouldn't happen because of our current policy is to only allow automounting of non-system-internal (which currently means only usb, firewire- and sdio-connected devices + optical discs) without interrupting the user to ask for his root password. For example, a typical case is that some person installs Fedora on a machine connected to a SAN and logs into GNOME as root. Now all the, say, 5,000 partitions visible from the SAN is automounted. This is typically not what the person logging in expected - in fact, such behavior may easily cause data-loss as another initiator on the SAN may have mounted one or more devices already. Actually, of course, the real bug GVfs fix is to be less cavalier about automounting - and that fix is already committed to GVfs and submitted as an GVfs update for F-12 (only ever automount usb, firewire, sdio, optical discs). Actually, the astute reader may note that this bugfix will become important for F-13 as we want users created in the default desktop OS to have more privileges cf. the "Roles and Policy" mail that I sent to this list in August 2009. So there's a couple of things here 1. Users will still log into GNOME as root no matter how loudly or ? ? how many times they are told not to do that. 2. I'm pretty sure the GVfs automounting bug is not unique here - there ? ? may be other things not working as expected. We should probably ? ? think about auditing the distro - e.g. we don't want to cause ? ? data loss even if people do things the OS is not designed for. 3. We probably need to do an even better job of discouraging ? ? people logging in as root - I'm thinking we should show ? ? a dialog explaining why this is bad and also show a red ? ? background or something. Or maybe refuse to start gnome-session ? ? altogether. ? ? Currently (rawhide) I don't get any warnings whatsoever if I log ? ? into VT1 as root on a machine in run level 3 and type 'startx'. I ? ? just get a stock GNOME desktop. ? ? Of course we could just say "don't use startx" but that's not how ? ? things work (since we still ship startx) and I don't see that ? ? changing. I don't regard "remove / neuter startx" as a fight worth ? ? fighting either. Thanks, David ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:22:07 -0500 From: M?ir?n Duffy Subject: Re: F13 sightings To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1260296527.2139.4.camel at localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Richard, On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 09:42 +0000, Richard Hughes wrote: > Yup, I've not yet been deluged with bugreports, so it's looking pretty > stable, even with the "first release" label. If you do find a bug, > there's a mailing list > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-color-manager-list which > might be interesting to you. Bug reports (and patches if possible) are > most welcome. I was wondering - are the vendor-provided color profiles packageable? Do you know what the legalities are around that? Do they have licenses? Are they considered software? (I was thinking it would be sweet to install the color profiles via package kit rather than scour the web for them) Thanks, ~m ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 09:19:59 +0200 From: Nicu Buculei Subject: Re: Logging into GNOME as root To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <4B1F4F9F.5030309 at nicubunu.ro> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 12/08/2009 10:42 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > >???3. We probably need to do an even better job of discouraging >? ? ? people logging in as root - I'm thinking we should show >? ? ? a dialog explaining why this is bad and also show a red >? ? ? background or something. Or maybe refuse to start gnome-session >? ? ? altogether. I think the key here is warning but without getting too annoying. Refusing to start gnome-session will most likely make the person use another DE instead, Xfce or something. I think doing something like Windows XP is safe mode is OK: display a warning dialog after login (maybe go the extra mile and provide a checkbox "I uderstand I am doing, do not show it again") and a text (a watermark?) over the background with "you are running as root". >? ? ? Currently (rawhide) I don't get any warnings whatsoever if I log >? ? ? into VT1 as root on a machine in run level 3 and type 'startx'. I >? ? ? just get a stock GNOME desktop. If someone goes to the steps of switching to run level 3 and running 'startx' by hand, you can assume he has a good understanding of what he's doing and will be able to bypass any blockers. >? ? ? Of course we could just say "don't use startx" but that's not how >? ? ? things work (since we still ship startx) and I don't see that >? ? ? changing. I don't regard "remove / neuter startx" as a fight worth >? ? ? fighting either. I agree, there are still legit uses for startx. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:51:33 +0000 From: Richard Hughes Subject: Re: F13 sightings To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: ??? <15e53e180912090051m51e1f9bes54e2c2e1967df6d6 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2009/12/8 M?ir?n Duffy : > Hi Richard, > > On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 09:42 +0000, Richard Hughes wrote: >> Yup, I've not yet been deluged with bugreports, so it's looking pretty >> stable, even with the "first release" label. If you do find a bug, >> there's a mailing list >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-color-manager-list which >> might be interesting to you. Bug reports (and patches if possible) are >> most welcome. > > I was wondering - are the vendor-provided color profiles packageable? Do > you know what the legalities are around that? Do they have licenses? Are > they considered software? > > (I was thinking it would be sweet to install the color profiles via > package kit rather than scour the web for them) I'm already there: http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2009/12/08/shared-color-profiles/ Richard. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:40:52 +0000 From: Bastien Nocera Subject: HAL removal Feature page To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Message-ID: <1260373252.3311.2017.camel at localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Heya, I've created this page to track the removal of HAL (hopefully) for F13: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/HalRemoval Could you please check your package and add them to the list if: - they rely on HAL or libhal - they rely on gnome-vfs2 (which still requires HAL, and is deprecated) - they rely on libgnomeui (which requires gnome-vfs2) We're only tracking Desktop spin applications, and applications you'd expect to see installed on GNOME desktops. Cheers ------------------------------ -- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list End of Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 70, Issue 6 ************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashwin.hambarde at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 02:57:15 2009 From: ashwin.hambarde at gmail.com (Ashwin Hambarde) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:57:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Let's connect on LinkedIn Message-ID: <1514711216.8791327.1260500235280.JavaMail.app@ech3-cdn07.prod> LinkedIn ------------ Discussions, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Ashwin Hambarde Confirm that you know Ashwin Hambarde https://www.linkedin.com/e/isd/923605703/8APbapb_/ Every day, millions of professionals like Ashwin Hambarde use LinkedIn to connect with colleagues, find experts, and explore opportunities. ------ (c) 2009, LinkedIn Corporation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlaska at redhat.com Fri Dec 11 15:53:40 2009 From: jlaska at redhat.com (James Laska) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:53:40 -0500 Subject: Fedora release criteria completely revised In-Reply-To: <076d60721cac4a9affc7c22ac0354c71@mailserver> References: <076d60721cac4a9affc7c22ac0354c71@mailserver> Message-ID: <1260546820.3549.30.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-12-07 at 14:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > During FUDCon, we've been working on revising the Fedora release criteria. > John Poelstra had already fleshed out a structure and much of the final > content, and we've been revising and tweaking it in conjunction with QA > (myself, Will Woods and James Laska), release engineering (Jesse Keating), > anaconda team (especially Denise Dumas and Peter Jones) and desktop team > (Christopher Aillon and Matthias Clasen, who provided suggestions at an > earlier stage). > > The new structure is based around a general page and specific pages for the > Fedora 13 Alpha, Beta and Final releases (which have been written > generically so they can easily be converted into pages for F14 and all > future releases just by copying and pasting). You can find the criteria > here: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Release_Criteria > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Alpha_Release_Criteria > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Beta_Release_Criteria > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Final_Release_Criteria > > they should contain everything you need to know. We based most of the > criteria around testing that was already being carried out but with no > formal policy basis, with additional suggestions from the anaconda and > desktop teams. > > We will follow these criteria for the Fedora 13 release process. So if you > can see any problems or potential trouble with any of this, please do reply > and let us know! > > Desktop team - can you please let us know of any additional things that you > would expect to be working at each point during the release cycle? Note > that only things that *must* be working at each point should be listed on > these pages, not nice-to-haves. You must be able to commit to the idea > that, if any criterion on the page is not met, we would slip the release in > question. Not sure if this has been raised yet, but are we specifying when in the release that packages should be signed with a valid signature? I believe packages are signed at all release milestones, but I'd like to clear up that assumption. Thanks, James -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From awilliam at redhat.com Fri Dec 11 16:20:33 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:20:33 -0800 Subject: Fedora release criteria completely revised In-Reply-To: <1260546820.3549.30.camel@localhost> References: <076d60721cac4a9affc7c22ac0354c71@mailserver> <1260546820.3549.30.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1260548433.19557.17.camel@adam.local.net> On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 10:53 -0500, James Laska wrote: > Not sure if this has been raised yet, but are we specifying when in the > release that packages should be signed with a valid signature? I > believe packages are signed at all release milestones, but I'd like to > clear up that assumption. Do you think that's a criteria issue, i.e. something to which there's an innate correct answer which can be defined and which shouldn't change? I'd think of it more as a process issue, but IMBW. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From jlaska at redhat.com Fri Dec 11 16:52:21 2009 From: jlaska at redhat.com (James Laska) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 11:52:21 -0500 Subject: Fedora release criteria completely revised In-Reply-To: <1260548433.19557.17.camel@adam.local.net> References: <076d60721cac4a9affc7c22ac0354c71@mailserver> <1260546820.3549.30.camel@localhost> <1260548433.19557.17.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1260550341.3549.45.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 08:20 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 10:53 -0500, James Laska wrote: > > > Not sure if this has been raised yet, but are we specifying when in the > > release that packages should be signed with a valid signature? I > > believe packages are signed at all release milestones, but I'd like to > > clear up that assumption. > > Do you think that's a criteria issue, i.e. something to which there's an > innate correct answer which can be defined and which shouldn't change? > I'd think of it more as a process issue, but IMBW. Yeah, that's my question ... is there an assumption that all packages will be signed? Does this assumption need to be validated? Looking at our current test plans for the release, I don't see anything where we confirm that packages are properly signed. Should we be testing this, and if so ... does it map back to a specific release criteria? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Dec 15 15:57:52 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:57:52 +0000 Subject: GObject-introspection enablement Message-ID: <1260892672.3881.305.camel@localhost.localdomain> Heya, I've fixed gir-repository building, and am currently building gnome-bluetooth with introspection support. If you have a library or program that provides introspection, it would be nice for you to enable it. If you run into any problems, feel free to poke at people on the #fedora-desktop channel on GIMPNet, or drop a mail here. Cheers From dmalcolm at redhat.com Tue Dec 15 16:34:36 2009 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:34:36 -0500 Subject: GObject-introspection enablement In-Reply-To: <1260892672.3881.305.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1260892672.3881.305.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1260894876.2255.14.camel@brick> On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 15:57 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > Heya, > > I've fixed gir-repository building, and am currently building > gnome-bluetooth with introspection support. > > If you have a library or program that provides introspection, it would > be nice for you to enable it. If you run into any problems, feel free to > poke at people on the #fedora-desktop channel on GIMPNet, or drop a mail > here. What's the status of Python 3 support in the code? Background: I want to build out a Python 3 stack for Fedora 12, parallel to the main python 2 stack [1] Chatting with Colin Walters at FUDcon I got the impression that it might be easier to add Python 3 support to gir than to port all of the hand-coded python bindings to python 3. http://live.gnome.org/PyGI seems to be the best description of this; there's a mention of Python 3 here as well: http://live.gnome.org/PyGObject Thanks Dave [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Python3F13 From walters at verbum.org Tue Dec 15 17:21:03 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:21:03 +0000 Subject: GObject-introspection enablement In-Reply-To: <1260894876.2255.14.camel@brick> References: <1260892672.3881.305.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1260894876.2255.14.camel@brick> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 4:34 PM, David Malcolm wrote: > Chatting with Colin Walters at FUDcon I got the impression that it might > be easier to add Python 3 support to gir than to port all of the > hand-coded python bindings to python 3. I don't know if anyone's looked at Python3 for PyGI; but if the goal is to say demo driving GTK+ from Python 3, then I think patching PyGI would be a fairly straightforward way to do it. You'd probably just have to tweak the unicode handling in a handful of code points effectively, whereas pygtk has a lot of custom API. In the bigger picture, it seems likely that the pygtk/PyGI split will continue, though I have mixed feelings about this. I feel bad at effectively driving a fork in the python binding community, but on the other hand ran into real limitations of the old system (stuff not bound, stuff bound inconsistently, etc). It's kind of unfortunate though to have two different transitions in progress at the same time The hard question is porting pygtk+dependencies, as well as key consumers (anaconda, system-config, etc). My take would be to focus for a little while on making Python 3 (along with PyGI) show noticeable benefits when developing *new* apps, and see if we can get away with also porting pygtk->PyGI at the same time. That's a problem which begs for an automated rewriting tool too. From notting at redhat.com Tue Dec 15 20:37:01 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:37:01 -0500 Subject: gnome-applets Message-ID: <20091215203700.GA6834@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Why is this a mandatory package at this stage of the desktop? Unless I missed something, we don't ship any of these applets in the default panel config, and it's not required by anything on a normal desktop install. Bill From walters at verbum.org Tue Dec 15 20:45:34 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:45:34 +0000 Subject: gnome-applets In-Reply-To: <20091215203700.GA6834@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20091215203700.GA6834@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:37 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Why is this a mandatory package at this stage of the desktop? Unless > I missed something, we don't ship any of these applets in the default > panel config, and it's not required by anything on a normal desktop > install. A concern here is there's a big difference between mandatory (installed by default) and optional (deeply buried, you have to know a magic package name string to find). We could possibly change the "Add to Panel" dialog to have a button "Install Popular Applets" which calls out to PackageKit if we wanted to reduce disk space usage or whatever I guess. From rstrode at redhat.com Tue Dec 15 22:49:44 2009 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:49:44 -0500 Subject: gnome-applets In-Reply-To: <20091215203700.GA6834@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20091215203700.GA6834@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B281288.3050102@redhat.com> On 12/15/2009 03:37 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Why is this a mandatory package at this stage of the desktop? Unless > I missed something, we don't ship any of these applets in the default > panel config, and it's not required by anything on a normal desktop > install. > > Moving it from mandatory to default sounds fine to me (if that's what you're proposing) gnome-panel already ships the "mandatory" ones in its tarball. --Ray From hughsient at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 08:35:29 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:35:29 +0000 Subject: gnome-applets In-Reply-To: References: <20091215203700.GA6834@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <15e53e180912160035v2e8316eaue036b48615c9aad5@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/15 Colin Walters : > "Install Popular Applets" which calls out to PackageKit That would be about 10 lines of code. See http://packagekit.org/files/session.c for an example. Richard. From walters at verbum.org Wed Dec 16 18:35:56 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:35:56 -0500 Subject: gnome-applets In-Reply-To: <4B281288.3050102@redhat.com> References: <20091215203700.GA6834@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4B281288.3050102@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Ray Strode wrote: > On 12/15/2009 03:37 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: >> >> Why is this a mandatory package at this stage of the desktop? Unless >> I missed something, we don't ship any of these applets in the default >> panel config, and it's not required by anything on a normal desktop >> install. >> >> > > Moving it from mandatory to default sounds fine to me (if that's what you're > proposing) Oh, right; I did jump to the conclusion that the proposal was mandatory->optional. default seems sane to me too. From rob at pangalactic.org Sun Dec 20 23:09:13 2009 From: rob at pangalactic.org (Rob Riggs) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:09:13 -0700 Subject: Focus Follows Mouse Message-ID: <4B2EAE99.3030506@pangalactic.org> Hi all, This is an editorial comment for the Fedora desktop developers. I've just done my first Fedora install since 8 or 9 with Fedora 12. Why is it now so difficult to set up "focus follows mouse" under Gnome? Click to focus is just annoying. It sucked for me when "click to focus" became the default, but I could live with finding the desktop preference and setting it. But it makes this user really annoyed (Grrr!) that I have to ask about it on some mailing list, install an obscure package, and change the setting. I get the feeling the the desktop developers think they know better than the user. Look, I *can* work either way -- I live with "focus follows mouse" on Windows. But this is one of the key reasons that Linux is my primary desktop -- it sucks less and "focus follows mouse" is one of the big reasons for that, especially when using multiple desktops. Point and type -- not point, click, type. (Yes, I know it can be changed on Windows.) It is especially annoying when not only does focus require a click, but that click also raises the window. I want focus and raising to be separate operations. There are plenty of operations that work much better with the focus window not being on top of the window stack. Forcing the window I want on top is a PITA that focus follows mouse avoids. I don't care to impose my preferences on anyone. I am not asking for "focus follows mouse" to be the default (though that would be my preference). But please make it easy to set my preferences. Please bring a little Christmas cheer to the Gnome world and make "Window Preferences" part of the default Gnome desktop installation again! Thanks, Rob From johannbg at hi.is Mon Dec 21 08:39:55 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:39:55 +0000 Subject: Focus Follows Mouse In-Reply-To: <4B2EAE99.3030506@pangalactic.org> References: <4B2EAE99.3030506@pangalactic.org> Message-ID: <4B2F345B.1090106@hi.is> On 12/20/2009 11:09 PM, Rob Riggs wrote: > Hi all, > > This is an editorial comment for the Fedora desktop developers. > > I've just done my first Fedora install since 8 or 9 with Fedora 12. > Why is it now so difficult to set up "focus follows mouse" under > Gnome? Click to focus is just annoying. It sucked for me when "click > to focus" became the default, but I could live with finding the > desktop preference and setting it. But it makes this user really > annoyed (Grrr!) that I have to ask about it on some mailing list, > install an obscure package, and change the setting. I get the feeling > the the desktop developers think they know better than the user. > > Look, I *can* work either way -- I live with "focus follows mouse" on > Windows. But this is one of the key reasons that Linux is my primary > desktop -- it sucks less and "focus follows mouse" is one of the big > reasons for that, especially when using multiple desktops. Point and > type -- not point, click, type. (Yes, I know it can be changed on > Windows.) It is especially annoying when not only does focus require > a click, but that click also raises the window. I want focus and > raising to be separate operations. There are plenty of operations > that work much better with the focus window not being on top of the > window stack. Forcing the window I want on top is a PITA that focus > follows mouse avoids. > > I don't care to impose my preferences on anyone. I am not asking for > "focus follows mouse" to be the default (though that would be my > preference). But please make it easy to set my preferences. Please > bring a little Christmas cheer to the Gnome world and make "Window > Preferences" part of the default Gnome desktop installation again! > On F11 it's no harder then System --> Preference --> Windows Select windows when mouse is over them.. If it's not in the menu in F12 on you system you can either go System --> Administration and type control-center-extra hash it and apply or just open up a terminal and type gnome-window-properties and it should ask you to install it if it's not installed on your system. JBG -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: johannbg.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 356 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johannbg at hi.is Mon Dec 21 09:26:55 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:26:55 +0000 Subject: Focus Follows Mouse In-Reply-To: <4B2F345B.1090106@hi.is> References: <4B2EAE99.3030506@pangalactic.org> <4B2F345B.1090106@hi.is> Message-ID: <4B2F3F5F.70703@hi.is> On 12/21/2009 08:39 AM, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: > On 12/20/2009 11:09 PM, Rob Riggs wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> This is an editorial comment for the Fedora desktop developers. >> >> I've just done my first Fedora install since 8 or 9 with Fedora 12. >> Why is it now so difficult to set up "focus follows mouse" under >> Gnome? Click to focus is just annoying. It sucked for me when "click >> to focus" became the default, but I could live with finding the >> desktop preference and setting it. But it makes this user really >> annoyed (Grrr!) that I have to ask about it on some mailing list, >> install an obscure package, and change the setting. I get the feeling >> the the desktop developers think they know better than the user. >> >> Look, I *can* work either way -- I live with "focus follows mouse" on >> Windows. But this is one of the key reasons that Linux is my primary >> desktop -- it sucks less and "focus follows mouse" is one of the big >> reasons for that, especially when using multiple desktops. Point and >> type -- not point, click, type. (Yes, I know it can be changed on >> Windows.) It is especially annoying when not only does focus require >> a click, but that click also raises the window. I want focus and >> raising to be separate operations. There are plenty of operations >> that work much better with the focus window not being on top of the >> window stack. Forcing the window I want on top is a PITA that focus >> follows mouse avoids. >> >> I don't care to impose my preferences on anyone. I am not asking for >> "focus follows mouse" to be the default (though that would be my >> preference). But please make it easy to set my preferences. Please >> bring a little Christmas cheer to the Gnome world and make "Window >> Preferences" part of the default Gnome desktop installation again! >> >> > On F11 it's no harder then System --> Preference --> Windows > Select windows when mouse is over them.. > > If it's not in the menu in F12 on you system you can either go System > --> Administration and type control-center-extra hash it and apply or > just open up a terminal and type gnome-window-properties and it should > ask you to install it if it's not installed on your system. > Correction forgot to add Add/Remove Software there.. as in If it's not in the menu in F12 on you system you can either go System --> Administration --> Add/Remove Software type control-center-extra in the search field and hash it.. JBG -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: johannbg.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 356 bytes Desc: not available URL: From debarshi.ray at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 01:56:29 2009 From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 03:56:29 +0200 Subject: Tracker 0.7.x? Message-ID: <3170f42f0912211756k1b845295wbd5c3b7e59a78d92@mail.gmail.com> Tracker 0.7.12 was released a few days back and upstream is planning to start making stable releases after Christmas. Are there any plans to update Tracker in Fedora (13 or 14) from the ancient 0.6.95 that we have now? Thanks, Debarshi -- One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an imaginary part. -- Andrew Koenig From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Dec 22 16:34:21 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:34:21 -0500 Subject: packaging tidbits Message-ID: <1261499661.2469.12.camel@planemask> Quick reminder, there have been some changes in the packaging guidelines that affect many desktop packages: - the standard icon cache snipplet has been reworked: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:ScriptletSnippets#Icon_Cache - scrollkeeper-update calls are no longer required: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:ScriptletSnippets#Scrollkeeper It might be worth cleaning those things up in passing while updating packages. Matthias From rob at pangalactic.org Mon Dec 28 06:26:31 2009 From: rob at pangalactic.org (Rob Riggs) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:26:31 -0700 Subject: Focus Follows Mouse Message-ID: <4B384F97.9030905@pangalactic.org> "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: > On 12/20/2009 11:09 PM, Rob Riggs wrote: >>> But please make it easy to set my preferences. Please >>> bring a little Christmas cheer to the Gnome world and make "Window >>> Preferences" part of the default Gnome desktop installation again! > > Correction forgot to add Add/Remove Software there.. as in > > If it's not in the menu in F12 on you system you can either go System > --> Administration --> Add/Remove Software type control-center-extra in > the search field and hash it.. Yes -- that's the part I am asking the Fedora Desktop team to fix. It should be put back into the default install (control-center) instead of being relegated to the obscure control-center-extra package. Rob