From debarshi.ray at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 20:42:40 2009 From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 02:12:40 +0530 Subject: Updating Anjuta and Glade -- need some help In-Reply-To: <1233327564.3271.2.camel@matthiasc> References: <3170f42f0901300040n8f9fdbfn5e60fabe13a321d2@mail.gmail.com> <1233327564.3271.2.camel@matthiasc> Message-ID: <3170f42f0902021242h56914ad5sea2be91602a313c6@mail.gmail.com> >> I am looking for someone who will be kind enough to update Anjuta [1] >> and Glade3 [2] to 2.25.5 and 3.5.6 respectively in Rawhide. My >> desktop's motherboard has been damaged and it will take sometime to >> repair it and I am not in a position to update my laptop that runs on >> Fedora 9. > I'll look at it when I do my next round of gnome updates (if it still > needs doing then...). Rakesh Pandit (cc'ed) took care of Glade3, but Anjuta still needs to be done. In the meantime Anjuta 2.25.90 has been released. The following are the release announcements of the last three releases that are missing from Rawhide due to a pending libgda update [1]: Anjuta 2.25.4 released - http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=1231164103.10723.19.camel%40idefix Anjuta 2.25.5 released - http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=1232407966.6370.0.camel%40Obelix Anjuta 2.25.90 released - http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=1233595069.6395.1.camel%40Obelix Thanks, Debarshi ---- [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/479298 From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Feb 6 19:01:41 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:01:41 -0500 Subject: Menu structure change Message-ID: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> Hey, I have just build a redhat-menus package that gets rid of the Submenus in Preferences. We kinda inherited them from the control-center shell, which never really took off, and they didn't really work well, since the categorization left people guessing which submenu to open. This means the Preferences menu will be a bit long. We should perhaps take it as encouragement to weed out some unnecessary things from there... Matthias From drago01 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 20:12:40 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:12:40 +0100 Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Hey, > > I have just build a redhat-menus package that gets rid of the Submenus > in Preferences. We kinda inherited them from the control-center shell, > which never really took off, and they didn't really work well, since the > categorization left people guessing which submenu to open. But showing a long list instead isn't much better either.... > This means the Preferences menu will be a bit long. We should perhaps > take it as encouragement to weed out some unnecessary things from > there... Removing stuff will get people search for the tools in google instead of in the other menu categories. There must be a better solution than either "leave it as is" and "just present a long list" From caillon at redhat.com Fri Feb 6 21:01:00 2009 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 16:01:00 -0500 Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> Message-ID: <498CA50C.6060205@redhat.com> On 02/06/2009 03:12 PM, drago01 wrote: > Removing stuff will get people search for the tools in google instead > of in the other menu categories. > > There must be a better solution than either "leave it as is" and "just > present a long list" Please don't jump to conclusions. Removing stuff from a specific menu doesn't necessarily mean removing functionality. For example, two things that could[*] be done to the "Screen Resolution" item is to combine it with something else, say maybe the "Appearance" dialog, or even to turn it into an applet which could arguably be more convenient for those that need to adjust it on from time to time. Another example, the "Assistive Technologies" item has one checkbox and then buttons which launch other items already in the menus, two of which have accessibility tabs already in them. That could surely be re-worked better? * Note that I am not necessarily recommending any of those, just citing them as examples. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Sat Feb 7 08:57:36 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 10:57:36 +0200 (EET) Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> Message-ID: Matthias Clasen wrote: > Hey, > > I have just build a redhat-menus package that gets rid of the Submenus > in Preferences. We kinda inherited them from the control-center shell, > which never really took off, and they didn't really work well, since the > categorization left people guessing which submenu to open. > > This means the Preferences menu will be a bit long. We should perhaps > take it as encouragement to weed out some unnecessary things from > there... I think a good test for "too long" is if the menu fit without scrolling on a 600 pxiels high display, so it us usable on both netbooks (1024x600) and maybe also old displays (who are still on 800x600). -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com From martin.sourada at gmail.com Sun Feb 8 22:43:39 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 23:43:39 +0100 Subject: FLOSS Multimedia Support in Fedora Message-ID: <1234133019.2835.36.camel@pc-notebook> Hi, sorry for cross-posting but I wanted all interested parties to not miss this email ;-) There has been some media related discussion in the -devel list and one of the points I have taken form it is that we should promote FLOSS multimedia and don't blame others for doing it (even if it's done in a not ideal way)... Now, the problem is that the actual support of these in our system is crappy. Out of the combinations of two FLOSS containers (matroska and ogg) and two FLOSS video codecs (dirac and theora) I know only one (ogg + theora) actually works in xine-lib (used by KDE4) which is pathetic. So I created a wiki page (not sure what name space to use, so I put it under my user page for starters) [1] which tracks the situation. I don't have much time lately due to university duties, so I put there only things I know of and didn't researched further. So if you know of any FLOSS container, video or audio codec, feel free to add it there. Also feel free to reference upstream bugs about the mentioned issues. The videos used for reference testing are available at my fedora people page [2]. Thanks, Martin References: [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mso/Open_Multimedia [2] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/codecs-test/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gmAD.20.rmaeder at spamgourmet.com Sun Feb 8 20:05:51 2009 From: gmAD.20.rmaeder at spamgourmet.com (Roman Maeder) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 21:05:51 +0100 Subject: firefox update bad Message-ID: today there was an update to firefox, firefox-3.0.6-1.fc10.x86_64.rpm. Now, when I try to run it, it just exits without any message. How can I get back a working firefox? The mirrors no longer carry the older version. I tried to install the original version, firefox-3.0.4-1.fc10.x86_64.rpm but it would list a ton of i386 (not x86_64) packages as dependencies. No good. From bnocera at redhat.com Mon Feb 9 09:44:58 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 09:44:58 +0000 Subject: FLOSS Multimedia Support in Fedora In-Reply-To: <1234133019.2835.36.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1234133019.2835.36.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1234172698.8950.3881.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Sun, 2009-02-08 at 23:43 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > Hi, > > sorry for cross-posting but I wanted all interested parties to not miss > this email ;-) > > There has been some media related discussion in the -devel list and one > of the points I have taken form it is that we should promote FLOSS > multimedia and don't blame others for doing it (even if it's done in a > not ideal way)... Now, the problem is that the actual support of these > in our system is crappy. Out of the combinations of two FLOSS containers > (matroska and ogg) and two FLOSS video codecs (dirac and theora) I know > only one (ogg + theora) actually works in xine-lib (used by KDE4) which > is pathetic. > > So I created a wiki page (not sure what name space to use, so I put it > under my user page for starters) [1] which tracks the situation. I don't > have much time lately due to university duties, so I put there only > things I know of and didn't researched further. So if you know of any > FLOSS container, video or audio codec, feel free to add it there. Also > feel free to reference upstream bugs about the mentioned issues. The > videos used for reference testing are available at my fedora people page > [2]. I think you're missing the biggest part of the problem, filing bugs. Cheers From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 10:52:07 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:52:07 +0100 Subject: FLOSS Multimedia Support in Fedora In-Reply-To: <1234172698.8950.3881.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1234133019.2835.36.camel@pc-notebook> <1234172698.8950.3881.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1234176728.2835.50.camel@pc-notebook> On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 09:44 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Sun, 2009-02-08 at 23:43 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > Hi, > > > > sorry for cross-posting but I wanted all interested parties to not miss > > this email ;-) > > > > There has been some media related discussion in the -devel list and one > > of the points I have taken form it is that we should promote FLOSS > > multimedia and don't blame others for doing it (even if it's done in a > > not ideal way)... Now, the problem is that the actual support of these > > in our system is crappy. Out of the combinations of two FLOSS containers > > (matroska and ogg) and two FLOSS video codecs (dirac and theora) I know > > only one (ogg + theora) actually works in xine-lib (used by KDE4) which > > is pathetic. > > > > So I created a wiki page (not sure what name space to use, so I put it > > under my user page for starters) [1] which tracks the situation. I don't > > have much time lately due to university duties, so I put there only > > things I know of and didn't researched further. So if you know of any > > FLOSS container, video or audio codec, feel free to add it there. Also > > feel free to reference upstream bugs about the mentioned issues. The > > videos used for reference testing are available at my fedora people page > > [2]. > > I think you're missing the biggest part of the problem, filing bugs. I've already filled bug in xine-lib's bugzilla about matroska+theora support [1], so long ago that I even forgot I did so... I'm going to try the rest in rawhide first (according to dirac compatibility matrix [2] some of these should be fixed by now). > Cheers > Martin References: [1] http://bugs.xine-project.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159 [2] http://diracvideo.org/wiki/index.php/Dirac_Compatibility_Matrix -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rabynum at ieee.org Mon Feb 9 19:17:00 2009 From: rabynum at ieee.org (Roy Bynum) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 13:17:00 -0600 Subject: Directions in functionality for Fedora In-Reply-To: References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> Message-ID: <4990812C.1010007@ieee.org> I have been a member of this group for several years. I have not responded or made a contribution because of time limitations. I have taken it for granted that the work that this group has been doing was improving the functionality and usability of Fedora, and for the most part that has been the case. Recently, I have been trying to migrate off of the Windows environment required for my employment to a full Fedora Linux platform. Several of the functions that I took for granted would be there seem to be missing now. For example: If fc10.x86_64 on a new hardware platform. I am unable to find support for mounting SMB shared file systems. I have a NAS that is SMB based and I would like to do an automount through fstab. Unfortunately, fc10 does not support SMB file systems. This was not a problem with earlier versions of Fedora, and the "mount" man pages still list "smb" as a supported file system. My Thunderbird email directories are on the SMB NAS and I am unable to mount the share to be able to point to the mounted filesystem/directory from Thunderbird on my fc10 installation. This keeps me tied to Windows. Also, I have a dual boot system with different hard drives for the Fedora Linux and Windows XP. I would like to do a full virtualization and run the Windows under a alternate profile from the same disk that I am using for the dual boot mode. It appears that KVM, the current default virtualization system in fc10 does not support block devices the way that XEN did. I have had a post on the fedora.forum for some time about the ability to utilize discrete block devices like hard drives as guest images and no one has been able to reply. There is a lot of "hype" about the better "speed" from para-virtualization instead of full virtualization. The published benchmark tests that I have been able to find indicate that para-virtualization tends to be better able to "prioritize" cpu utilization between the host and guest "systems", so that only some "systems" degrade which makes some appear to be faster, while full virtualization tends force equal utilization so that all of the "systems" tend to degrade equally based on the number of host/guest "systems" are currently running. Please take this note as a favorable user who is concerned about the direction that Fedora appears to be going. There needs to be increased diversity of functionality, adding new functionality and improvements while maintaining the legacy functionality and capabilities. Pushing only the new at the expense of the old is a Microsoft mantra. It should not be a Linux one. Thank you for you time and patience in reading this long note, Roy Bynum rabynum at ieee.org 214-774-2923 From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Feb 10 06:31:23 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:01:23 +0530 Subject: Snapshots and Nautilus support Message-ID: <49911F3B.3020208@fedoraproject.org> Hi, Opensolaris time slide integrates filesystem snapshots in a pretty neat way with Nautilus. Is anyone from the desktop team looking into writing/porting it based on btrfs? Essentially, there is a nautilus extension in Python that can be easily ported and a patch for adding a time slider and restore button. A stand alone app takes care of setting some preferences. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Feb 10 06:45:03 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:15:03 +0530 Subject: Thunderbird 3 Message-ID: <4991226F.8030304@fedoraproject.org> Hi Are there plans to include Thunderbird 3 in Fedora 11? Rahul From adrin.jalali at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 11:06:47 2009 From: adrin.jalali at gmail.com (Adrin Jalali) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:36:47 +0330 Subject: firefox update bad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8049a2b40902100306w7e1f6613l9939cc9f66768906@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 11:35 PM, Roman Maeder < gmAD.20.rmaeder at spamgourmet.com> wrote: > today there was an update to firefox, firefox-3.0.6-1.fc10.x86_64.rpm. > Now, when I try to run it, it just exits without any message. > > How can I get back a working firefox? The mirrors no longer carry the older > version. I tried to install the original version, > firefox-3.0.4-1.fc10.x86_64.rpm > but it would list a ton of i386 (not x86_64) packages as dependencies. > No good. > move .mozilla folder in your home to another place and try running firefox again. That firefox works well for me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Feb 10 15:27:37 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:27:37 -0500 Subject: gnome-format: plans to include it? In-Reply-To: <497F82C7.7070800@fedoraproject.org> References: <497F5CFC.1070908@fedoraproject.org> <1233090264.3180.4.camel@matthiasc> <497F82C7.7070800@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1234279657.3486.1.camel@matthiasc> On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 03:25 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 00:44 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Hi > >> > >> Any plans to include it by default in Fedora? > >> > >> http://live.gnome.org/gnome-format > > > > We're working on a nautilus extension for much the same purpose. See > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeviceKit > > > > Still, if somebody wants to package gnome-format and bring it into > > Fedora, thats fine. But for the purpose of tightly integrated formatting > > support, the nautilus extension is probably going to deliver a better > > experience. > > Then, there isn't much of a point duplicating it with gnome-format. Is > the developer aware of it? I am assuming, that we are getting this > nautilus extension before Fedora 11 release. Forgot to mention that the nautilus extension is in rawhide now, package nautilus-gdu. It is still a work in progress. Currently, it only shows up in the context menu of mounted volumes, in the computer window. Feel free to give it a try, and give Tomas some feedback. Matthias From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Feb 10 15:32:16 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:32:16 -0500 Subject: Snapshots and Nautilus support In-Reply-To: <49911F3B.3020208@fedoraproject.org> References: <49911F3B.3020208@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1234279936.3486.2.camel@matthiasc> On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 12:01 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > Opensolaris time slide integrates filesystem snapshots in a pretty neat > way with Nautilus. Is anyone from the desktop team looking into > writing/porting it based on btrfs? > > Essentially, there is a nautilus extension in Python that can be easily > ported and a patch for adding a time slider and restore button. A stand > alone app takes care of setting some preferences. None of us is currently working on that. But it sounds like a nice project for someone who wants to dive in and work on something cool. Matthias From rakesh.pandit at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 20:12:36 2009 From: rakesh.pandit at gmail.com (Rakesh Pandit) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:42:36 +0530 Subject: Snapshots and Nautilus support Message-ID: Hi list, On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:32:16 -0500, Mathias wrote: >On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 12:01 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Opensolaris time slide integrates filesystem snapshots in a pretty neat >> way with Nautilus. Is anyone from the desktop team looking into >> writing/porting it based on btrfs? >> >> Essentially, there is a nautilus extension in Python that can be easily >> ported and a patch for adding a time slider and restore button. A stand >> alone app takes care of setting some preferences. >None of us is currently working on that. But it sounds like a nice >project for someone who wants to dive in and work on something cool. I had been trying to play with btrfs on rawhide some time back for same functionality. At that moment (0.17) or even now btrfs-progs(0.18-3) was bit unstable to work on. Will give it a try to port the app and work on nautilus patch to integrate this functionality. -- Regards, Rakesh Pandit From sobhi at us.ibm.com Wed Feb 11 16:28:20 2009 From: sobhi at us.ibm.com (Ali Sobhi) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:28:20 -0600 Subject: F10, Gnome Desktop and VMware Message-ID: I have VMware 1.0.8 on F10 (Intel, 32-bit) and Gnome Desktop. Starting VMware and booting a WinXP image, when left-clicking inside the VMware window to transfer the keyboard and mouse to the VM running (or ^G or grab input from the menu) resets the desktop and X server and I get a login screen. Has anyone seen this? How do I go about debugging this issue.l PS. VMware 1.0.8 and the same image behaves fine on RHEL 5 and Ubuntu Hardy (8.04) Regards, ---Ali Sobhi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christof.haerens at sos.be Wed Feb 11 19:07:21 2009 From: christof.haerens at sos.be (Christof Haerens) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:07:21 +0100 Subject: F10, Gnome Desktop and VMware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <499321E9.7000002@sos.be> Ali Sobhi wrote: > I have VMware 1.0.8 on F10 (Intel, 32-bit) and Gnome Desktop. > > Starting VMware and booting a WinXP image, when left-clicking inside > the VMware window to transfer the keyboard and mouse to the > VM running (or ^G or grab input from the menu) resets the desktop and > X server and I get a login screen. > > Has anyone seen this? How do I go about debugging this issue.l > > PS. VMware 1.0.8 and the same image behaves fine on RHEL 5 and Ubuntu > Hardy (8.04) > > Regards, > > ---Ali Sobhi Hi, See this: http://communities.vmware.com/thread/177321 It's for vmware player, but applies also for server and workstation. Besides, I presume you are using vmware server 1.0.8 with vmware-server-console. If you have vmware server on another machine and the vmware-server-console on F10, edit the /etc/vmware/config on the F10. Regards Christof Haerens -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Feb 13 20:06:25 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:06:25 -0500 Subject: testable things in rawhide Message-ID: <1234555586.3416.37.camel@matthiasc> I felt I should highlight one of the almost complete F11 features that have recently landed in rawhide and are waiting to be tried out... Marek has pretty much completed his work on making system-config-printer use PolicyKit to control access to privileged operations: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/CupsPolicyKitIntegration To see how the policies apply, just open system-config-printer and try to make changes to your printer configuration. To change or inspect cups-related policies, go to System ? Preferences ? Authorizations and navigate to the org.opensuse.cupspkhelper part of the tree. (As the name indicates, this feature is a collaboration between us and some OpenSUSE guys). Please let us know if things work as expected (or if they don't...) Matthias From johannbg at hi.is Fri Feb 13 20:02:51 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?UTF-8?B?IkrDs2hhbm4gQi4gR3XDsG11bmRzc29uIg==?=) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:02:51 +0000 Subject: testable things in rawhide In-Reply-To: <1234555586.3416.37.camel@matthiasc> References: <1234555586.3416.37.camel@matthiasc> Message-ID: <4995D1EB.8090607@hi.is> Matthias Clasen wrote: > I felt I should highlight one of the almost complete F11 features that > have recently landed in rawhide and are waiting to be tried out... > > Marek has pretty much completed his work on making system-config-printer > use PolicyKit to control access to privileged operations: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/CupsPolicyKitIntegration > > To see how the policies apply, just open system-config-printer and try > to make changes to your printer configuration. > > To change or inspect cups-related policies, go to System ? Preferences ? > Authorizations and navigate to the org.opensuse.cupspkhelper part of the > tree. (As the name indicates, this feature is a collaboration between us > and some OpenSUSE guys). > > Please let us know if things work as expected (or if they don't...) > > > Matthias > > > Could you please post this ( and any other test related subject ) to the test-list and or cc the test list. Best regards Johann B. From caillon at redhat.com Sun Feb 15 00:35:57 2009 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:35:57 -0500 Subject: Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4991226F.8030304@fedoraproject.org> References: <4991226F.8030304@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4997636D.4010109@redhat.com> On 02/10/2009 01:45 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Are there plans to include Thunderbird 3 in Fedora 11? That depends on how willing we are to slip for it. I'm doubtful it will be released in time for our release, however there's always a chance. Which makes it a tough decision, and one I've been pondering since December. Personally, I'd love to see it in, but regardless of what happens in the final, if nothing else, it will make it as an update (to all other releases too). I'll be continuing to monitor it and make a decision in time for feature freeze. From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Mon Feb 16 09:25:41 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:25:41 +0100 Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> Message-ID: <1234776341.7158.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Am Freitag, den 06.02.2009, 14:01 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > Hey, > > I have just build a redhat-menus package that gets rid of the Submenus > in Preferences. We kinda inherited them from the control-center shell, > which never really took off, and they didn't really work well, since the > categorization left people guessing which submenu to open. I don't thing that's a good argument, because you get used to the submenus quickly. I really liked them. We worked hard to get everything right, filed bugs against packages that were not inside of the submenus, and now we throw all this away? > This means the Preferences menu will be a bit long. We should perhaps > take it as encouragement to weed out some unnecessary things from > there... I have a pretty standard install of F10 and I have 28 menu entries for preferences. A screen with 600 px height and two panels can only take 18 menu entries, this means that we'll have to remove 10. This isn't possible, at least without ether a) removing stuff that really is needed or b) major changes in Gnome upstream. > Matthias > Regards, Christoph From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 09:39:12 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:39:12 +0100 Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: <1234776341.7158.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> <1234776341.7158.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1234777152.3457.5.camel@pc-notebook> On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 10:25 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote: > Am Freitag, den 06.02.2009, 14:01 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > Hey, > > > > I have just build a redhat-menus package that gets rid of the Submenus > > in Preferences. We kinda inherited them from the control-center shell, > > which never really took off, and they didn't really work well, since the > > categorization left people guessing which submenu to open. > > I don't thing that's a good argument, because you get used to the > submenus quickly. I really liked them. We worked hard to get everything > right, filed bugs against packages that were not inside of the submenus, > and now we throw all this away? > +1. I've received this update yesterday and it makes the Preferences menu much less efficient to use. Please put the sub-menus back. > > This means the Preferences menu will be a bit long. We should perhaps > > take it as encouragement to weed out some unnecessary things from > > there... > > I have a pretty standard install of F10 and I have 28 menu entries for > preferences. A screen with 600 px height and two panels can only take 18 > menu entries, this means that we'll have to remove 10. This isn't > possible, at least without ether a) removing stuff that really is needed > or b) major changes in Gnome upstream. > I have 800 px height and two panels and it hardly fits there on pretty standard Rawhide install... Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Feb 16 14:15:21 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:15:21 -0500 Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: <1234776341.7158.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> <1234776341.7158.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1234793721.3812.4.camel@matthiasc> On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 10:25 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote: > Am Freitag, den 06.02.2009, 14:01 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > Hey, > > > > I have just build a redhat-menus package that gets rid of the Submenus > > in Preferences. We kinda inherited them from the control-center shell, > > which never really took off, and they didn't really work well, since the > > categorization left people guessing which submenu to open. > > I don't thing that's a good argument, because you get used to the > submenus quickly. I really liked them. We worked hard to get everything > right, filed bugs against packages that were not inside of the submenus, > and now we throw all this away? Well, if you got used to submenus quickly, you will probably also get used to no submenus quickly... On a less flippant note, somebody is already working on a package to add submenus in a separate package, like the games-menus (?) package does to the games menu. From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 14:34:56 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:34:56 +0100 Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: <1234793721.3812.4.camel@matthiasc> References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> <1234776341.7158.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1234793721.3812.4.camel@matthiasc> Message-ID: <1234794896.3457.19.camel@pc-notebook> On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 09:15 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 10:25 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote: > > I don't thing that's a good argument, because you get used to the > > submenus quickly. I really liked them. We worked hard to get everything > > right, filed bugs against packages that were not inside of the submenus, > > and now we throw all this away? > > Well, if you got used to submenus quickly, you will probably also get > used to no submenus quickly... > Not necessarily. It's easier to navigate through shorter menus, divided logically, than in one loooong manu that hardly fits your screen, at least for me ;-) Although, I don't say the current sorting is flawless. E.g. what is the difference between Preferences->System and Administration? Gnome-control-center does not differentiate between those two :~/ > On a less flippant note, somebody is already working on a package to add > submenus in a separate package, like the games-menus (?) package does to > the games menu. > That sounds like a good and pretty much conflict-less solution to me :-) Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Feb 16 15:46:52 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:46:52 +0200 Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: <1234794896.3457.19.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> <1234776341.7158.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1234793721.3812.4.camel@matthiasc> <1234794896.3457.19.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <49998A6C.7070503@nicubunu.ro> Martin Sourada wrote: > > Not necessarily. It's easier to navigate through shorter menus, divided > logically, than in one loooong manu that hardly fits your screen, at > least for me ;-) Although, I don't say the current sorting is flawless. This is one of the reason I rarely use the bookmarks in Firefox: the list is so long that I have to scroll it a lot even on my large display so it's awful to find anything in there. Completely unusable, but I know it is my guilt for not having organized it in folders. > E.g. what is the difference between Preferences->System and > Administration? Gnome-control-center does not differentiate between > those two :~/ Actually that one should be simple: everything under "Preferences" is supposed to affect only the logged-in account and everything under "Administration" is account-independent. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/ my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/ From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Mon Feb 16 18:08:44 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:08:44 +0100 Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: <1234793721.3812.4.camel@matthiasc> References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> <1234776341.7158.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1234793721.3812.4.camel@matthiasc> Message-ID: <1234807724.3495.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> Am Montag, den 16.02.2009, 09:15 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 10:25 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote: > > Am Freitag, den 06.02.2009, 14:01 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > > Hey, > > > > > > I have just build a redhat-menus package that gets rid of the Submenus > > > in Preferences. We kinda inherited them from the control-center shell, > > > which never really took off, and they didn't really work well, since the > > > categorization left people guessing which submenu to open. > > > > I don't thing that's a good argument, because you get used to the > > submenus quickly. I really liked them. We worked hard to get everything > > right, filed bugs against packages that were not inside of the submenus, > > and now we throw all this away? > > Well, if you got used to submenus quickly, you will probably also get > used to no submenus quickly... How about the space argument then? How do you want to get rid of 10 menu entries (that's more than a third)? > On a less flippant note, somebody is already working on a package to add > submenus in a separate package, like the games-menus (?) package does to > the games menu. Yes, that's Rudolf Kastl and me, and it's a sisyphean task, because most packages don't use subcategories correctly. The only desktop files that were using it were the ones in the prefs menu, but nobody will notice it any longer. :( Regards, Christoph From rabynum at ieee.org Mon Feb 16 20:59:19 2009 From: rabynum at ieee.org (Roy Bynum) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 14:59:19 -0600 Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: <1234807724.3495.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> <1234776341.7158.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1234793721.3812.4.camel@matthiasc> <1234807724.3495.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4999D3A7.3060702@ieee.org> Christoph Wickert wrote: > Am Montag, den 16.02.2009, 09:15 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > >> On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 10:25 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote: >> >>> Am Freitag, den 06.02.2009, 14:01 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: >>> >>>> Hey, >>>> >>>> I have just build a redhat-menus package that gets rid of the Submenus >>>> in Preferences. We kinda inherited them from the control-center shell, >>>> which never really took off, and they didn't really work well, since the >>>> categorization left people guessing which submenu to open. >>>> >>> I don't thing that's a good argument, because you get used to the >>> submenus quickly. I really liked them. We worked hard to get everything >>> right, filed bugs against packages that were not inside of the submenus, >>> and now we throw all this away? >>> >> Well, if you got used to submenus quickly, you will probably also get >> used to no submenus quickly... >> > > How about the space argument then? How do you want to get rid of 10 menu > entries (that's more than a third)? > > >> On a less flippant note, somebody is already working on a package to add >> submenus in a separate package, like the games-menus (?) package does to >> the games menu. >> > > Yes, that's Rudolf Kastl and me, and it's a sisyphean task, because most > packages don't use subcategories correctly. The only desktop files that > were using it were the ones in the prefs menu, but nobody will notice it > any longer. :( > > Regards, > Christoph > > I appreciate all of the thought and work that you are doing on this project. I have a thought though, wouldn't doing away with the submenus create a level of "clutter" that would detract from the "presentation" of the desktop. The use of submenus reduces the clutter and the primary menu levels add a degree of categorization to the submenus by collecting them within specific categories. Perhaps it a better way to present things would be to provide the ability to "edit" the menus to allow users to bring to the primary level the submenus that they use on a regular basis for their own customization. Thank you, Roy Bynum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 19:19:32 2009 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:19:32 +0100 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) Message-ID: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that What is you comment? -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From walters at verbum.org Tue Feb 17 19:31:53 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:31:53 -0500 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that > > What is you comment? I think if someone proposed a patch which tweaked some kernel parameters as part of the desktop kickstart, it'd be reasonable to consider. I'd definitely agree with him that the default desktop installation should be tuned for responsiveness over throughput. From notting at redhat.com Tue Feb 17 19:38:33 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:38:33 -0500 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090217193833.GA31601@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: > > http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that > > > > What is you comment? > > I think if someone proposed a patch which tweaked some kernel > parameters as part of the desktop kickstart, it'd be reasonable to > consider. I'd definitely agree with him that the default desktop > installation should be tuned for responsiveness over throughput. Well, we could just turn off swap entirely, which obviates the issue (at the expense of other issues.) Bill From xiphmont at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 19:38:37 2009 From: xiphmont at gmail.com (Christopher Montgomery) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:38:37 -0500 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <806dafc20902171138x3e4f8b1ev9faa28d05ed15cc2@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that > > What is you comment? ...this article is wrong in enough factual areas it's hard to comment (just because an explanation feels right doesn't make it true, it just makes it 'truthy'). But one thing is correct. Linux Desktop performance has gotten sluggish. It's not due to eg swap. I have no swap on any of my machines and haven't for years. It's because a) virtually everything is backed by a db today (firefox is a pig because every keypress is firing off multiple database queries) b) Filesystems have finally turned on barriers to avoid most cases of 'I lost alot of data after a power outage' and c) the 'Wings Fall Off' buffercache serialization bug that showed up sometime after 2.6.15. You think sluggish is bad, try 'my buffercache filled up while rendering video and the machine wouldn't even ping for a week'. These problems all feed each other. Monty From walters at verbum.org Tue Feb 17 19:43:41 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:43:41 -0500 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <20090217193833.GA31601@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <20090217193833.GA31601@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: >> > http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that >> > >> > What is you comment? >> >> I think if someone proposed a patch which tweaked some kernel >> parameters as part of the desktop kickstart, it'd be reasonable to >> consider. I'd definitely agree with him that the default desktop >> installation should be tuned for responsiveness over throughput. > > Well, we could just turn off swap entirely, which obviates the issue > (at the expense of other issues.) On the face of it, that seems a bit more radical to me than tuning some kernel parameters, though I won't claim deep knowledge about the kernel parameters in question. This reminds me, if someone were to propose this patch I'd suggest it require signoff from the Fedora kernel people, even if it is just for the desktop image. From walters at verbum.org Tue Feb 17 19:47:10 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:47:10 -0500 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <806dafc20902171138x3e4f8b1ev9faa28d05ed15cc2@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <806dafc20902171138x3e4f8b1ev9faa28d05ed15cc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Christopher Montgomery wrote: > > It's because a) virtually everything is backed by a db today (firefox > is a pig because every keypress is firing off multiple database > queries I believe there's some work in Firefox 3.1 to make these queries asynchronous. The primary issue is the amount of I/O they're doing in the mainloop thread, which is always a big user experience mistake in desktop applications. From drago01 at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 19:50:47 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:50:47 +0100 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <20090217193833.GA31601@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <20090217193833.GA31601@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: >> > http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that >> > >> > What is you comment? >> >> I think if someone proposed a patch which tweaked some kernel >> parameters as part of the desktop kickstart, it'd be reasonable to >> consider. I'd definitely agree with him that the default desktop >> installation should be tuned for responsiveness over throughput. > > Well, we could just turn off swap entirely, which obviates the issue > (at the expense of other issues.) > merge the swap prefetch patch (upstream) From ajax at redhat.com Tue Feb 17 20:40:56 2009 From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:40:56 -0500 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1234903256.919.82.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 20:19 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that > > What is you comment? If we really thought this was true, it would be straightforward enough to bump the mlock limits for users and get some of the high-touch apps to lock their text sections. I can add this to the X server tomorrow trivially even without that (the joys of being root). I'm not _that_ convinced. I mean, the way to measure this is to look at the io trace hooks and see what you end up reading in. I'd be mildly surprised if it was text sections. - ajax -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From walters at verbum.org Tue Feb 17 21:15:06 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:15:06 -0500 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <1234903256.919.82.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <1234903256.919.82.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: 2009/2/17 Adam Jackson : > On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 20:19 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that >> >> What is you comment? > > If we really thought this was true, it would be straightforward enough > to bump the mlock limits for users and get some of the high-touch apps > to lock their text sections. I can add this to the X server tomorrow > trivially even without that (the joys of being root). > > I'm not _that_ convinced. I mean, the way to measure this is to look at > the io trace hooks and see what you end up reading in. I'd be mildly > surprised if it was text sections. Ok, I only skimmed his article initially, I thought his argument was basically that it's better for interactivity to have a smaller buffer cache than to (preemptively or not) page out application sections (be that text, or stack/heap). Certainly in the default configuration, the heap can be paged out, no? I think by "Prioritize code." he really means "whatever the app needs to respond to user input". This is apparently not a new debate: http://kerneltrap.org/node/3000 Though big picture if you're swapping very much you've basically lost. So the biggest wins here definitely involve fixing applications (like federico's work on image caching and jemalloc in Firefox, alex's recent blog about tracking down extra nautilus heap usage). From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net Tue Feb 17 22:20:20 2009 From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:20:20 -0600 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <1234903256.919.82.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Colin Walters wrote: > Ok, I only skimmed his article initially, I thought his argument was > basically that it's better for interactivity to have a smaller buffer > cache than to (preemptively or not) page out application sections (be > that text, or stack/heap). The down-side, of course, is that less buffering will slow down whatever is trying to do I/O, which can cause the very responsiveness issues you're trying to fix. > Certainly in the default configuration, the heap can be paged out, no? > I think by "Prioritize code." he really means "whatever the app needs > to respond to user input". I think the default configuration is to reserve 40% of memory for buffering, and the rest for application memory (there is a kernel parameter to tune it, I forget what though). Hmm... will quantum memory allow to store both buffer AND app memory in ram, such that the system will choose which is actually read (thereby "destroying" the other)? Because that's what we really need... otherwise you don't know if it's better to keep that file you just read, or the app memory that hasn't been touched in 30 minutes. If you just read in a .cpp in a mass build (say, something the size of KDE), chances are you don't need it again... especially when the user goes back to writing that letter he stopped working on 30 minutes ago. Or maybe the user won't work on the letter and that file is the database the user is currently working with. The point is, there isn't a way to /know/, so the kernel has to just guess, and it favors (in its current configuration) new things. > Though big picture if you're swapping very much you've basically lost. Yes, but for someone like me, you need a HUGE amount of RAM to avoid swapping. I build KDE and do digital photography. The former needs probably a few GB of ram, at least (when you account for file buffering, especially in massively-parallel builds). The latter also needs a few GB of memory, especially if working on multiple images. I'd say 16 GB is a good number, but not so many desktops have that much (not yet at least). (Netbooks certainly don't, but then, you probably shouldn't be doing that sort of workload on a netbook in the first place.) Even hard-core web browsing can eat upwards of 1 GB (lots of sites open, especially graphics-heavy ones). IOW, planning how to swap /well/ is still important, IMO. -- Matthew Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. -- If a signature is not read by anyone, does it make a sound? From ajax at redhat.com Tue Feb 17 21:57:29 2009 From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:57:29 -0500 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <1234903256.919.82.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1234907849.919.108.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 16:15 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > Ok, I only skimmed his article initially, I thought his argument was > basically that it's better for interactivity to have a smaller buffer > cache than to (preemptively or not) page out application sections (be > that text, or stack/heap). > > Certainly in the default configuration, the heap can be paged out, no? > I think by "Prioritize code." he really means "whatever the app needs > to respond to user input". > > This is apparently not a new debate: http://kerneltrap.org/node/3000 > > Though big picture if you're swapping very much you've basically lost. > So the biggest wins here definitely involve fixing applications (like > federico's work on image caching and jemalloc in Firefox, alex's > recent blog about tracking down extra nautilus heap usage). There have been a couple of other ideas along these lines that I've been kicking around for a while. I'm not taking credit, certainly these aren't revolutionary, but I do think they'd be worthwhile. * Memory pressure signal from the kernel. If the kernel gets within (say) 5% of needing to evict something from memory to satisfy an allocation, it could mark some fd readable, and then apps could voluntarily shrink their caches. If the time to recreate from source is less than the cost of swapping, this wins; think JPEG to pixmap expansion cost here. * Casual pixmaps in X. Normally we have to hold on to pixel data come hell or high water. Firefox could reasonably create its pixmaps through some other channel if it knew that it had the source data still to work with; this would give X the ability to respond to the above pressure signal sanely. * Compressed image transport in X. We did have this at one point but it wasn't a big performance win in terms of raw drawing speed. But for memory pressure? Maybe worth it. - ajax -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rabynum at ieee.org Tue Feb 17 22:59:26 2009 From: rabynum at ieee.org (Roy Bynum) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:59:26 -0600 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <1234903256.919.82.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <499B414E.3020403@ieee.org> Matthew Woehlke wrote: > Colin Walters wrote: >> Ok, I only skimmed his article initially, I thought his argument was >> basically that it's better for interactivity to have a smaller buffer >> cache than to (preemptively or not) page out application sections (be >> that text, or stack/heap). > > The down-side, of course, is that less buffering will slow down > whatever is trying to do I/O, which can cause the very responsiveness > issues you're trying to fix. > >> Certainly in the default configuration, the heap can be paged out, no? >> I think by "Prioritize code." he really means "whatever the app needs >> to respond to user input". > > I think the default configuration is to reserve 40% of memory for > buffering, and the rest for application memory (there is a kernel > parameter to tune it, I forget what though). > > Hmm... will quantum memory allow to store both buffer AND app memory > in ram, such that the system will choose which is actually read > (thereby "destroying" the other)? Because that's what we really > need... otherwise you don't know if it's better to keep that file you > just read, or the app memory that hasn't been touched in 30 minutes. > > If you just read in a .cpp in a mass build (say, something the size of > KDE), chances are you don't need it again... especially when the user > goes back to writing that letter he stopped working on 30 minutes ago. > Or maybe the user won't work on the letter and that file is the > database the user is currently working with. The point is, there isn't > a way to /know/, so the kernel has to just guess, and it favors (in > its current configuration) new things. > >> Though big picture if you're swapping very much you've basically lost. > > Yes, but for someone like me, you need a HUGE amount of RAM to avoid > swapping. I build KDE and do digital photography. The former needs > probably a few GB of ram, at least (when you account for file > buffering, especially in massively-parallel builds). The latter also > needs a few GB of memory, especially if working on multiple images. > I'd say 16 GB is a good number, but not so many desktops have that > much (not yet at least). (Netbooks certainly don't, but then, you > probably shouldn't be doing that sort of workload on a netbook in the > first place.) Even hard-core web browsing can eat upwards of 1 GB > (lots of sites open, especially graphics-heavy ones). > > IOW, planning how to swap /well/ is still important, IMO. > I may be totally "out in the weeds" with this comment, but here goes. Is is possible to set up a small app that would maintain a record of the swap/buffer usage patterns and set up a "sliding scale" that would move the swap priority based on the usage pattern of the logged in user? I say this because different people tend to use their computers in different ways, as seen above. This would also allow a "starting point" for system tuning based on the amount of RAM and paging ratios. In the past I have had to do system tuning for Oracle DBs and know that different DB architectures require different tuning. It is a very technical art, generally beyond a nominal user. A usage tracking app may go a long way toward "auto tuning" based on usage patterns of particular users. From sandmann at redhat.com Tue Feb 17 23:36:02 2009 From: sandmann at redhat.com (Soeren Sandmann Pedersen) Date: 17 Feb 2009 18:36:02 -0500 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <20090217193833.GA31601@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <20090217193833.GA31601@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Bill Nottingham writes: > Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: > > > http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that > > > > > > What is you comment? > > > > I think if someone proposed a patch which tweaked some kernel > > parameters as part of the desktop kickstart, it'd be reasonable to > > consider. I'd definitely agree with him that the default desktop > > installation should be tuned for responsiveness over throughput. > > Well, we could just turn off swap entirely, which obviates the issue > (at the expense of other issues.) Systems where I have done that, have generally been thrashing themselves to death. When there is no swap at all, the kernel can't move any malloced or otherwise anonymous data to disk, which means that filebacked data will be competing for fewer and fewer pages as the amount of available RAM shrinks. Basically, no swap at all means that a simple memory leak can completely kill the system. Soren From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net Wed Feb 18 00:11:32 2009 From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:11:32 -0600 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <499B414E.3020403@ieee.org> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <1234903256.919.82.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> <499B414E.3020403@ieee.org> Message-ID: Roy Bynum wrote: > I may be totally "out in the weeds" with this comment, but here goes. > Is is possible to set up a small app that would maintain a record of the > swap/buffer usage patterns and set up a "sliding scale" that would move > the swap priority based on the usage pattern of the logged in user? Good question. I don't know enough if it can track usage patterns, but my guess is it could. (At least, if running as root; if not root I think it could only read the memory of processes belonging to the effective user, but since you say it should track that users' stuff anyway I think that's a non-issue. That said...) AFAIK the ratio is adjustable in real-time. (...it might need to be root to tweak the ratio, or else have an suid helper program. The latter is probably better... although it's probably better to make the whole thing run as root so it is system-wide. For single-user systems, it will mostly track the logged-in user anyway, but also account for system daemons. For multi-user systems, presumably you don't want to treat one user preferentially. And surely you don't want multiple instances running and contending on what to make the ratio.) Short answer: I think it's possible. Usage patterns are a function of user /and time/. I assume such a program could be tuned to handle varying usage patterns as well. -- Matthew Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. -- If a signature is not read by anyone, does it make a sound? From rabynum at ieee.org Wed Feb 18 04:39:37 2009 From: rabynum at ieee.org (Roy Bynum) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:39:37 -0600 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <1234903256.919.82.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> <499B414E.3020403@ieee.org> Message-ID: <499B9109.7070904@ieee.org> Matthew Woehlke wrote: > Roy Bynum wrote: >> I may be totally "out in the weeds" with this comment, but here >> goes. Is is possible to set up a small app that would maintain a >> record of the swap/buffer usage patterns and set up a "sliding scale" >> that would move the swap priority based on the usage pattern of the >> logged in user? > > Good question. I don't know enough if it can track usage patterns, but > my guess is it could. (At least, if running as root; if not root I > think it could only read the memory of processes belonging to the > effective user, but since you say it should track that users' stuff > anyway I think that's a non-issue. That said...) AFAIK the ratio is > adjustable in real-time. (...it might need to be root to tweak the > ratio, or else have an suid helper program. The latter is probably > better... although it's probably better to make the whole thing run as > root so it is system-wide. For single-user systems, it will mostly > track the logged-in user anyway, but also account for system daemons. > For multi-user systems, presumably you don't want to treat one user > preferentially. And surely you don't want multiple instances running > and contending on what to make the ratio.) > > Short answer: I think it's possible. > > Usage patterns are a function of user /and time/. I assume such a > program could be tuned to handle varying usage patterns as well. > Desktop systems tend to be single user and usage centric which can change, while multiuser systems tend to be setup for a dedicated usage which does not change. The tuning application would be optional in both cases with at least two different modes of operation. The single user would more likely use it in a transparent auto-tuning mode while the administrator of the multiuser system would use it as a support tool in non auto-tuning, reporting only mode. One of the things that I have learned over the years is that what I don't know exceeds what I do know. I may know the utilization that I have for my systems and those that I have supported. There are probably quite a few that I don't know about. If the single user systems were given the option of sending feedback to a development repository and provide a "usefulness" reporting site for feedback that could be used for making adjustments to the auto-tuning parameters. In addition to the nominal testing that would be done during development, other usage and utilization functionalities can be accounted for. This type of applications would be useful for a broad range of implementations, and perhaps help reduce some of the "art" to system tuning. Additionally, it might have a positive impact on "perceived" desktop performance over a broad range of environments. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Feb 18 08:43:42 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:13:42 +0530 Subject: Nodoka not default? Message-ID: <499BCA3E.90203@fedoraproject.org> Hi, Fedora 11 Alpha doesn't seem to have Nodoka as the default theme anymore. Is this a bug? Rahul From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Feb 18 10:09:16 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:09:16 +0100 Subject: Nodoka not default? In-Reply-To: <499BCA3E.90203@fedoraproject.org> References: <499BCA3E.90203@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1234951756.2864.7.camel@pc-notebook> On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 14:13 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > Fedora 11 Alpha doesn't seem to have Nodoka as the default theme > anymore. Is this a bug? > I've noticed this as well. The problem is that Fedora isn't set to be default theme, instead you have a Custom one (i.e. setting theme to Fedora loads the Nodoka+Mist combo correctly). Therefore I think it is a bug. Is already one filled or should I go ahead and fill it? > Rahul > Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Feb 18 10:17:27 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 15:47:27 +0530 Subject: Nodoka not default? In-Reply-To: <1234951756.2864.7.camel@pc-notebook> References: <499BCA3E.90203@fedoraproject.org> <1234951756.2864.7.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <499BE037.3010100@fedoraproject.org> Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 14:13 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Fedora 11 Alpha doesn't seem to have Nodoka as the default theme >> anymore. Is this a bug? >> > I've noticed this as well. The problem is that Fedora isn't set to be > default theme, instead you have a Custom one (i.e. setting theme to > Fedora loads the Nodoka+Mist combo correctly). Therefore I think it is a > bug. Is already one filled or should I go ahead and fill it? I haven't. Please do. Rahul From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Feb 18 10:57:43 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:57:43 +0100 Subject: Nodoka not default? In-Reply-To: <499BE037.3010100@fedoraproject.org> References: <499BCA3E.90203@fedoraproject.org> <1234951756.2864.7.camel@pc-notebook> <499BE037.3010100@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1234954663.3145.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 15:47 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Martin Sourada wrote: > > On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 14:13 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> Fedora 11 Alpha doesn't seem to have Nodoka as the default theme > >> anymore. Is this a bug? > >> > > I've noticed this as well. The problem is that Fedora isn't set to be > > default theme, instead you have a Custom one (i.e. setting theme to > > Fedora loads the Nodoka+Mist combo correctly). Therefore I think it is a > > bug. Is already one filled or should I go ahead and fill it? > > I haven't. Please do. > Done, not sure about the component though. So I've chosen control-center... https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486089 > Rahul > Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net Wed Feb 18 16:37:48 2009 From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:37:48 -0600 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <499B9109.7070904@ieee.org> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <1234903256.919.82.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> <499B414E.3020403@ieee.org> <499B9109.7070904@ieee.org> Message-ID: Roy Bynum wrote: > Desktop systems tend to be single user This seems to be changing, in my experience. Linux especially encourages multiple users. My home system deals with two non-daemon users on a regular basis and occasionally three... and I'm the only human using it. Family computers will sometimes (and should /always/, TBH*) have different user accounts for each family member. (* not just for security reasons, it's also practical; each user gets their own personalizations) > and usage centric which can > change, while multiuser systems tend to be setup for a dedicated usage > which does not change. You clearly haven't met some of the systems I use, that get used for anything and everything :-)... running IDE's, builds, stress testing... Even a "single-purpose" box for software QA can easily run the gamut of usage patterns. > The tuning application would be optional in both > cases with at least two different modes of operation. The single user > would more likely use it in a transparent auto-tuning mode while the > administrator of the multiuser system would use it as a support tool in > non auto-tuning, reporting only mode. Sure, but if it's well-written, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to use it to auto-tune on a multi-user system. Even on a "true" single-use system, you could use it as a "fire and forget" way to improve performance; I agree you probably will not get the maximum benefit from this, but unless the program really sucks, it should be better than leaving the default settings. At any rate, my previous point was mainly that it should be able to monitor the entire system (which likely requires elevated privileges). Since you mentioned monitoring at the system-level, we seem to agree on this. > One of the things that I have learned over the years is that what I > don't know exceeds what I do know. I may know the utilization that I > have for my systems and those that I have supported. There are probably > quite a few that I don't know about. If the single user systems were > given the option of sending feedback to a development repository and > provide a "usefulness" reporting site for feedback that could be used > for making adjustments to the auto-tuning parameters. That sounds like an interesting idea. -- Matthew Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. -- "Nobody expects the traditional Bourne shell!" From caolanm at redhat.com Thu Feb 19 11:17:59 2009 From: caolanm at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Caol=E1n?= McNamara) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:17:59 +0000 Subject: Best way to register a file format plugin for an app with nautilus's mime-handler etc. Message-ID: <1235042279.3444.101.camel@Vain> So, here's the example scenario: Someone writes an extension for OpenOffice.org writer which adds a file format importer and that gets packaged into Fedora. Is there a way to then register the extra mime-type that writer now supports if, and only if, that extension is installed. The mime-type field in .desktops http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/desktop-entry-spec-latest.html basically assumes a static list of supported mime-types. Adding the mime-type to the writer list would claim that it always can open the type, which isn't true if the extension isn't installed. So is the right solution to install a new .destop along with that extension with NoDisplay=true set and the list of extra mime-types that the extension adds to writer and then use the same Exec line from the normal parent package .desktop ? C. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 17:19:06 2009 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:19:06 +0100 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <806dafc20902171138x3e4f8b1ev9faa28d05ed15cc2@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <806dafc20902171138x3e4f8b1ev9faa28d05ed15cc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300902200919y1f56a9c3o42dd0de8efaabefc@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Christopher Montgomery wrote: > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Valent Turkovic > wrote: >> http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that >> >> What is you comment? > > ...this article is wrong in enough factual areas it's hard to comment > (just because an explanation feels right doesn't make it true, it just > makes it 'truthy'). But one thing is correct. Linux Desktop > performance has gotten sluggish. It's not due to eg swap. I have no > swap on any of my machines and haven't for years. > > It's because a) virtually everything is backed by a db today (firefox > is a pig because every keypress is firing off multiple database > queries) b) Filesystems have finally turned on barriers to avoid most > cases of 'I lost alot of data after a power outage' and c) the 'Wings > Fall Off' buffercache serialization bug that showed up sometime after > 2.6.15. You think sluggish is bad, try 'my buffercache filled up > while rendering video and the machine wouldn't even ping for a week'. > > These problems all feed each other. > > Monty > Author asked to be corrected so it would be helpful to correct him where he is wrong. But also share all your knowledge how to make Linux desktop more responsive. Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 17:32:40 2009 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:32:40 +0100 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300902200932k508d6323q9d45e1ae8131ce96@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that > > What is you comment? > > -- > http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ > linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless > registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. > ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic > As a long time Linux desktop user and Linux enthusiast I want bloody screaming fast desktop :) There are some situations that I just want to pull my hair out when I see that desktop performance just crawls to a halt :( When I read articles like Tales from responsivenessland[1] I really don't get why there aren't bells ringing in the heads of the people who can actually make a difference for Linux desktop performance. I was also really sad when I read interview with Con Kolivas[2] and the reasons why he quit kernel development[3]. I hope kernel developers will wake up and realise that there are also us - Desktop users and what we need and want are responsive desktops. Will Fedora be the first Linux distro to have sane desktop defaults (vm.swappiness=1 and vm.vfs_cache_pressure=50). Current Fedora slogan is "Features. Freedom. Friends. First", I hope to see "Desktop performance" as part of it soon ;) [1] http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that [2] http://apcmag.com/interview_with_con_kolivas_part_1_computing_is_boring.htm [3] http://apcmag.com/why_i_quit_kernel_developer_con_kolivas.htm -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From rabynum at ieee.org Fri Feb 20 18:15:44 2009 From: rabynum at ieee.org (Roy Bynum) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:15:44 -0600 Subject: Linux users want better desktop performance (Screw data. Prioritize code) In-Reply-To: <64b14b300902200932k508d6323q9d45e1ae8131ce96@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300902171119y5b5daec4k107d7c839d7ff1a3@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300902200932k508d6323q9d45e1ae8131ce96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <499EF350.909@ieee.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Valent Turkovic > wrote: > >> http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that >> >> What is you comment? >> >> -- >> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ >> linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless >> registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. >> ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic >> >> > > As a long time Linux desktop user and Linux enthusiast I want bloody > screaming fast desktop :) There are some situations that I just want > to pull my hair out when I see that desktop performance just crawls to > a halt :( > > When I read articles like Tales from responsivenessland[1] I really > don't get why there aren't bells ringing in the heads of the people > who can actually make a difference for Linux desktop performance. > > I was also really sad when I read interview with Con Kolivas[2] and > the reasons why he quit kernel development[3]. > > I hope kernel developers will wake up and realise that there are also > us - Desktop users and what we need and want are responsive desktops. > > Will Fedora be the first Linux distro to have sane desktop defaults > (vm.swappiness=1 and vm.vfs_cache_pressure=50). Current Fedora slogan > is "Features. Freedom. Friends. First", I hope to see "Desktop > performance" as part of it soon ;) > > [1] http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that > [2] http://apcmag.com/interview_with_con_kolivas_part_1_computing_is_boring.htm > [3] http://apcmag.com/why_i_quit_kernel_developer_con_kolivas.htm > > Valent may have partially pointed to the issue of performance vs. features. As Microsoft users have discovered, the more active processes that are running and the pipes that interactive data, such as email and internet, go through, the slower a system will run. Newer, more complex (read: amount of code required to be functional) applications and updates are applied, the perceived performance continues to degrade. The amount of load on a desktop system has expanded at a staggering rate. Virtualization adds its own load to active desktops as well. And because of additional security monitoring processes, older hardware should not be pushed to perform at the level that it has in the past. New hardware technology such as higher speed, multi-core processor and 2 and 3 channel memory is becoming more common, which tends to be better able to handle the expanded processing and I/O load. This does nothing for the majority of Linux users that are used to being able to use older hardware, yet want the features of the newer applications and functions. Desktop performance comes down to a trade off between the perceived performance and number of active features/processes with the amount of code to be executed, based on a common hardware performance. A proposed "auto-tunning" I/O manager may provide some assistance, but it also adds an processing load on the desktop. Has anyone done any benchmarking on the amount of code, granularity of the code, and processing performance? Has anyone done any benchmarking of applications and versions that may give some insight on the code processing vs hardware performance issues? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 22:36:15 2009 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 04:06:15 +0530 Subject: Custom SPIN for DF-Day+ Message-ID: <78323d480902201436k78abe6dfs2c3b255b53a23efd@mail.gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Document Freedom Day is on the 25thof March. Plenty of teams will be taking part in the event (I am coordinating the Kolkata team IlugCalinfo ) Is it possible for somebody to make a custom spin including: 1. Mainly destop oriented packages (updated to stable Fedora10) 2. All Open Office stuff with good collection of templates, Dictonaries 3. Scribus, GIMP, Koffice, Gnumeric, Docbook, Lua, Quanta etc (latest stable) 4. TexLive and IDEs 5. Lots of Advocacy related documentation + Whitepapers, Technical reports, Tutorials etc (for DF-Day): (I can help) 6. Documentation More (please suggest) (a non official spin can be considered for some locales ... for rpmfusion things) I think many teams would be able to make copies and do lot more. Best A. Mani -- A. Mani Member, Cal. Math. Soc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmfMq4ACgkQunMISzvdfU5AwACgiZLZBb+uq28sw+itQqCZKftC 0M8Ani0PtYWhgOnUC3MEFK1iocnhWch0 =iRG5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gnomeuser at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 07:44:15 2009 From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:44:15 +0100 Subject: Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> Per the request of Brian Pebble I am submitting the following feature proposal for the desktop SIG to comment on: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer Kind regards, David Nielsen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexl at redhat.com Tue Feb 24 08:51:15 2009 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:51:15 +0100 Subject: Best way to register a file format plugin for an app with nautilus's mime-handler etc. In-Reply-To: <1235042279.3444.101.camel@Vain> References: <1235042279.3444.101.camel@Vain> Message-ID: <1235465475.5196.17.camel@fatty> On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 11:17 +0000, Caol?n McNamara wrote: > So, here's the example scenario: Someone writes an extension for > OpenOffice.org writer which adds a file format importer and that gets > packaged into Fedora. Is there a way to then register the extra > mime-type that writer now supports if, and only if, that extension is > installed. > > The mime-type field in .desktops > http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/desktop-entry-spec-latest.html > basically assumes a static list of supported mime-types. Adding the > mime-type to the writer list would claim that it always can open the > type, which isn't true if the extension isn't installed. Yeah, this is a bit of a problem. Especially with things like apps using gstreamer thus being one step removed from what filetypes are supported. > So is the right solution to install a new .destop along with that > extension with NoDisplay=true set and the list of extra mime-types that > the extension adds to writer and then use the same Exec line from the > normal parent package .desktop ? This sounds like it could work. Have you tried it? I can't think of a better approach really. From caolanm at redhat.com Tue Feb 24 09:03:07 2009 From: caolanm at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Caol=E1n?= McNamara) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:03:07 +0000 Subject: Best way to register a file format plugin for an app with nautilus's mime-handler etc. In-Reply-To: <1235465475.5196.17.camel@fatty> References: <1235042279.3444.101.camel@Vain> <1235465475.5196.17.camel@fatty> Message-ID: <1235466187.8854.5.camel@Vain> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 09:51 +0100, Alexander Larsson wrote: > On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 11:17 +0000, Caol?n McNamara wrote: > > So is the right solution to install a new .destop along with that > > extension with NoDisplay=true set and the list of extra mime-types that > > the extension adds to writer and then use the same Exec line from the > > normal parent package .desktop ? > > This sounds like it could work. Have you tried it? I can't think of a > better approach really. Yeah, seems to work. For the rawhide openoffice.org-javafilter rpm which adds import filters to OOo for weird-ass small-device formats like PocketWord and AportisDoc I tried a openoffice.org-javafilter.desktop of... [Desktop Entry] Version=1.0 Type=Application Name=Small Device Format Importer Exec=openoffice.org %U MimeType=application/x-aportisdoc;application/x-pocket-word; NoDisplay=true and it seemed to work just fine. Definitely made nautilus launch OOo for those types anyway. C. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Feb 24 10:36:12 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:36:12 +0200 Subject: Best way to register a file format plugin for an app with nautilus's mime-handler etc. In-Reply-To: <1235042279.3444.101.camel@Vain> References: <1235042279.3444.101.camel@Vain> Message-ID: <49A3CD9C.8010509@nicubunu.ro> Caol?n McNamara wrote: > So, here's the example scenario: Someone writes an extension for > OpenOffice.org writer which adds a file format importer and that gets > packaged into Fedora. Is there a way to then register the extra > mime-type that writer now supports if, and only if, that extension is > installed. This is supposed to also work the other way: with the extension NOT installed an user click on a file of that type and PackageKit pop-up, ask about installing the extension, do its job, the extension is installed and the file successfully opened? -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/ my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/ From caolanm at redhat.com Tue Feb 24 10:45:27 2009 From: caolanm at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Caol=E1n?= McNamara) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:45:27 +0000 Subject: Best way to register a file format plugin for an app with nautilus's mime-handler etc. In-Reply-To: <49A3CD9C.8010509@nicubunu.ro> References: <1235042279.3444.101.camel@Vain> <49A3CD9C.8010509@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1235472327.8854.22.camel@Vain> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 12:36 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Caol?n McNamara wrote: > > So, here's the example scenario: Someone writes an extension for > > OpenOffice.org writer which adds a file format importer and that gets > > packaged into Fedora. Is there a way to then register the extra > > mime-type that writer now supports if, and only if, that extension is > > installed. > > This is supposed to also work the other way: with the extension NOT > installed an user click on a file of that type and PackageKit pop-up, > ask about installing the extension, do its job, the extension is > installed and the file successfully opened? Is that a question or a statement ? I mean, is that a wish-list, or is it something which has been already implemented and is supposed to work right now ? If it is, what's the mechanics behind PackageKit determining the right package to provide a handler for the extension, is it .desktop file parsing for handled mime-types ? C. From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Feb 24 10:47:07 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:47:07 +0000 Subject: Best way to register a file format plugin for an app with nautilus's mime-handler etc. In-Reply-To: <49A3CD9C.8010509@nicubunu.ro> References: <1235042279.3444.101.camel@Vain> <49A3CD9C.8010509@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1235472427.3878.3736.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 12:36 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Caol?n McNamara wrote: > > So, here's the example scenario: Someone writes an extension for > > OpenOffice.org writer which adds a file format importer and that gets > > packaged into Fedora. Is there a way to then register the extra > > mime-type that writer now supports if, and only if, that extension is > > installed. > > This is supposed to also work the other way: with the extension NOT > installed an user click on a file of that type and PackageKit pop-up, > ask about installing the extension, do its job, the extension is > installed and the file successfully opened? Then package-kit can't find anything, because you haven't registered the mime-type in any desktop files, so the fact that it's supported isn't advertised in the RPM headers. So the short answer is that you need a desktop file. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Feb 24 11:03:34 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:03:34 +0200 Subject: Best way to register a file format plugin for an app with nautilus's mime-handler etc. In-Reply-To: <1235472327.8854.22.camel@Vain> References: <1235042279.3444.101.camel@Vain> <49A3CD9C.8010509@nicubunu.ro> <1235472327.8854.22.camel@Vain> Message-ID: <49A3D406.2000508@nicubunu.ro> Caol?n McNamara wrote: > On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 12:36 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote: >> Caol?n McNamara wrote: >>> So, here's the example scenario: Someone writes an extension for >>> OpenOffice.org writer which adds a file format importer and that gets >>> packaged into Fedora. Is there a way to then register the extra >>> mime-type that writer now supports if, and only if, that extension is >>> installed. >> This is supposed to also work the other way: with the extension NOT >> installed an user click on a file of that type and PackageKit pop-up, >> ask about installing the extension, do its job, the extension is >> installed and the file successfully opened? > > Is that a question or a statement ? I mean, is that a wish-list, or is > it something which has been already implemented and is supposed to work > right now ? If it is, what's the mechanics behind PackageKit determining > the right package to provide a handler for the extension, is it .desktop > file parsing for handled mime-types ? It was a honest question, since PackageKit is able to do such things as not only installing codecs when needed but even installing fonts when an application needs them, finding the correct application to open a file seems a logical thing from an usability point of view. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Feb 24 11:18:06 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:18:06 +0000 Subject: Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1235474286.3878.3798.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 08:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > Per the request of Brian Pebble I am submitting the following feature > proposal for the desktop SIG to comment on: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer Given that the feature request is a knee-jerk reaction[1] to one Rhythmbox maintainer saying he sees the current code base as a dead-end for a few use cases, I'm pretty happy to say I'd refuse the idea point-blank. It also seems the latest stable release crashes when playing videos on my machine, and spits out loads of uncaught exceptions on startup. FWIW, I've added my comments to: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer and filed the two bugs I found whilst starting up Banshee: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487117 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487120 Cheers [1]: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer&oldid=81191 From hughsient at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 12:59:58 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:59:58 +0000 Subject: Best way to register a file format plugin for an app with nautilus's mime-handler etc. In-Reply-To: <1235472427.3878.3736.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1235042279.3444.101.camel@Vain> <49A3CD9C.8010509@nicubunu.ro> <1235472427.3878.3736.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1235480398.3199.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 10:47 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > Then package-kit can't find anything, because you haven't registered > the mime-type in any desktop files, so the fact that it's supported > isn't advertised in the RPM headers. Agreed. At the moment the Fedora 11 rebuild is generating mime type data for all the packages that ship desktop files and adding them as rpm provides. > So the short answer is that you need a desktop file. Add a desktop file, get it built in koji, double click extension, and PackageKit will do the rest. Richard. From gnomeuser at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 13:01:26 2009 From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:01:26 +0100 Subject: Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal In-Reply-To: <1235474286.3878.3798.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> <1235474286.3878.3798.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0902240501y50fe32dcmed2dbe1e92f9814b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/2/24 Bastien Nocera > On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 08:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > > Per the request of Brian Pebble I am submitting the following feature > > proposal for the desktop SIG to comment on: > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer > > Given that the feature request is a knee-jerk reaction[1] to one > Rhythmbox maintainer saying he sees the current code base as a dead-end > for a few use cases, I'm pretty happy to say I'd refuse the idea > point-blank. As I explained to you in a reply to the accusatorial private email you sent me, this is clearly based on the technical superiority of Banshee. I have previously expressed an interest in proposing this. http://davidnielsen.wordpress.com/2008/12/05/little-hopes-for-fedora-11-and-beyond/- posted on December 5, 2008 Item 5: Banshee as the default media player, with it?s aggressive development plan and responsive developers it seems to make a lot more sense to me as our default. It also presents much nicer bling and cooler features. I like that we can count on releases happening often with major improvements happening each time. E.g. in the pipeline now is things like rockbox integration meaning we might be able to offer users a way to convert a player to use only free software and free formats soon (something that seems like an issue for some due to codec patents). Now will you please show your fellow Fedora contributors some common decency and respect. It also seems the latest stable release crashes when playing videos on > my machine, and spits out loads of uncaught exceptions on startup. > > FWIW, I've added my comments to: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer > and filed the two bugs I found whilst starting up Banshee: I will reply to these as soon as possible https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487117 > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487120 Thank you for your bugreports, as you will have noticed I have already started working on them. - David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Feb 24 16:00:21 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:00:21 +0000 Subject: Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0902240501y50fe32dcmed2dbe1e92f9814b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> <1235474286.3878.3798.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1dedbbfc0902240501y50fe32dcmed2dbe1e92f9814b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1235491221.3878.4116.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 14:01 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > > > 2009/2/24 Bastien Nocera > On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 08:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > > Per the request of Brian Pebble I am submitting the > following feature > > proposal for the desktop SIG to comment on: > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer > > > Given that the feature request is a knee-jerk reaction[1] to > one > Rhythmbox maintainer saying he sees the current code base as a > dead-end > for a few use cases, I'm pretty happy to say I'd refuse the > idea > point-blank. > > As I explained to you in a reply to the accusatorial private email you > sent me, this is clearly based on the technical superiority of > Banshee. I have previously expressed an interest in proposing this. > Now will you please show your fellow Fedora contributors some common > decency and respect. I think we got past that point when you proposed this feature for inclusion without discussing it with any of the other interested parties. This is not the same as replacing Pidgin with Empathy, or replacing nautilus-cd-burner with Brasero. The former just got into GNOME, and is a front-end to a new platform feature, and the latter was replaced (acrimonously) upstream. > It also seems the latest stable release crashes when playing > videos on > my machine, and spits out loads of uncaught exceptions on > startup. > > FWIW, I've added my comments to: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer > and filed the two bugs I found whilst starting up Banshee: > > I will reply to these as soon as possible > > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487117 > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487120 > > Thank you for your bugreports, as you will have noticed I have already > started working on them. I filed 2 more when trying to reproduce those bugs: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487152 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487155 Cheers From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Feb 24 19:26:06 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:26:06 -0500 Subject: Another F11 feature worth testing Message-ID: <1235503566.3501.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Here is another F11 feature that will become complete enough to warrant testing in the next few days: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AutoFontsAndMimeInstaller The mass rebuild that is currently underway will make sure that the font- and mimehandler-installing packages gain the Provides that are necessary to make this work. Please give it a try once the mass rebuild lands in rawhide. Matthias From martin.sourada at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 23:19:13 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:19:13 +0100 Subject: Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1235517553.4617.26.camel@pc-notebook> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 08:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > Per the request of Brian Pebble I am submitting the following feature > proposal for the desktop SIG to comment on: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer > Well, I am not a member of the desktop SIG and as such I have no word in the actual choosing (other than expressing my opinion), but I personally don't think it is a good idea. First of all Rhythmbox was still Gnome default audio player and Totem video player last time I checked, second I am regular user of both and actually find them pretty usable *and* efficient and third, but not last, banshee is pulling in mono stuff, which is first a bit controversial (a really tiny bit, mostly caused by the fact that C# was developed by a certain company that people in *nix world don't usually have pleasant tea parties with) and second, most importantly, for the Desktop Live Spin it's another ~30 MiB worth of packages... Also from what I read, it also joins the functionality of video and audio players... Well, while there is some non-zero intersection of those, I don't quite like having it both managed by one app. That's not how gnome apps usually do it. > Kind regards, > David Nielsen Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From caolanm at redhat.com Tue Feb 24 23:34:42 2009 From: caolanm at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Caol=E1n?= McNamara) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:34:42 +0000 Subject: Another F11 feature worth testing In-Reply-To: <1235503566.3501.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1235503566.3501.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1235518482.28363.1.camel@Vain> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 14:26 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Here is another F11 feature that will become complete enough to warrant > testing in the next few days: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AutoFontsAndMimeInstaller What's the technical kung-foo behind the auto-font stuff ? Might be good if OOo did it too, though sort of late now to do anything about it for F-11 if its intricate. C. From gnomeuser at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 23:44:19 2009 From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:44:19 +0100 Subject: Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal In-Reply-To: <1235517553.4617.26.camel@pc-notebook> References: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> <1235517553.4617.26.camel@pc-notebook> Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0902241544x30afe266nfc0e1e8e851d843f@mail.gmail.com> Den 25. feb. 2009 00.19 skrev Martin Sourada : > > > > Well, I am not a member of the desktop SIG and as such I have no word in > the actual choosing (other than expressing my opinion), but I personally > don't think it is a good idea. First of all Rhythmbox was still Gnome > default audio player and Totem video player last time I checked, second > I am regular user of both and actually find them pretty usable *and* > efficient and third, but not last, banshee is pulling in mono stuff, > which is first a bit controversial (a really tiny bit, mostly caused by > the fact that C# was developed by a certain company that people in *nix > world don't usually have pleasant tea parties with) and second, most > importantly, for the Desktop Live Spin it's another ~30 MiB worth of > packages... Rhythmbox is not the default GNOME mediaplayer, GNOME only ships Totem. Till such a time as Fedora deems Mono non-free, the fact that Mono and banshee is present means it lives up to the strict guidelines for freedom Fedora requires and should be able to be considered on equal footing. If we are second class citizens without any chance of ever being included please tell us officially, I am sure I and the other people working tirelessly to improve Mono would love to know if we are wasting our time, if that is the case it might save everyone a lot of headaches and wasted manhours of contributions that could be invested in non-Fedora venue which is interested in this work. I am aware of the media size increase, it is noted as a con. I know there is space to be saved by getting the debug stripper fixed to understand mono as every package currently ships those included since this functionality still isn't present. i have also been able to shave a bit off cleaning out the dependency chain. I am also investigating other improvements to our mono stack which should give size decreases for the entire stack. > Also from what I read, it also joins the functionality of video and > audio players... Well, while there is some non-zero intersection of > those, I don't quite like having it both managed by one app. That's not > how gnome apps usually do it. I have to admit I kinda like it, I was skeptical at first. Where it really starts to shine is for video podcasts, automatically downloaded (and with a bit of dbus magic even torrent payloads can be downloaded which is really powerful not to mention shiny). There is an increasing intersection of differing kinds of media in peoples collections, vodcasts, music videos, tv shows, movies, e.g. I believe it's valuable to interact with them through the same library and application. - David Nielsen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Feb 24 23:48:13 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:48:13 -0500 Subject: Another F11 feature worth testing In-Reply-To: <1235518482.28363.1.camel@Vain> References: <1235503566.3501.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1235518482.28363.1.camel@Vain> Message-ID: <1235519293.5109.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 23:34 +0000, Caol?n McNamara wrote: > On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 14:26 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Here is another F11 feature that will become complete enough to warrant > > testing in the next few days: > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AutoFontsAndMimeInstaller > > What's the technical kung-foo behind the auto-font stuff ? Might be good > if OOo did it too, though sort of late now to do anything about it for > F-11 if its intricate. There is a loadable GTK+ module that hooks into the Pango fontmap to do the magic: /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/modules/libpk-gtk-module.so >From the README in PackageKit-0.4.0/contrib/gtk-module: The GTK+ module is designed to be loaded using gnome-settings-daemon by the gnome-packagekit package. It can however be launched for testing using: GTK_MODULES="$GTK_MODULES:/usr/lib/gtk-2.0/modules/pk-gtk-module.so" application The module installs a custom default pangocairo font map during gtk_init(). Pango will then call back with any languages which need installing, and these are queued up. In an idle callback these are emitted as an asyncronous D-BUS method to the session PackageKit InstallFonts() method. If configured to do so, this will prompt the user to install new fonts. So, if you are loading GTK+ modules and are using Pango to render fonts, you may be good already (of course, that would be too easy...). From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Feb 24 23:56:00 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 05:26:00 +0530 Subject: xguest by default? Message-ID: <49A48910.9060004@fedoraproject.org> Hi, xguest provides kiosk mode/ guest user functionality that is very useful for desktop users. xguest has been available in the repository for a few releases but has little exposure since it is not included by default. Can we consider including it by default in the live cd and perhaps the DVD image as well? It currently works only with GDM. Rahul From rabynum at ieee.org Wed Feb 25 00:17:05 2009 From: rabynum at ieee.org (Roy Bynum) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:17:05 -0600 Subject: Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0902241544x30afe266nfc0e1e8e851d843f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> <1235517553.4617.26.camel@pc-notebook> <1dedbbfc0902241544x30afe266nfc0e1e8e851d843f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A48E01.5010108@ieee.org> David Nielsen wrote: > > > Den 25. feb. 2009 00.19 skrev Martin Sourada >: > > > > > Well, I am not a member of the desktop SIG and as such I have no > word in > the actual choosing (other than expressing my opinion), but I > personally > don't think it is a good idea. First of all Rhythmbox was still Gnome > default audio player and Totem video player last time I checked, > second > I am regular user of both and actually find them pretty usable *and* > efficient and third, but not last, banshee is pulling in mono stuff, > which is first a bit controversial (a really tiny bit, mostly > caused by > the fact that C# was developed by a certain company that people in > *nix > world don't usually have pleasant tea parties with) and second, most > importantly, for the Desktop Live Spin it's another ~30 MiB worth of > packages... > > > Rhythmbox is not the default GNOME mediaplayer, GNOME only ships Totem. > > Till such a time as Fedora deems Mono non-free, the fact that Mono and > banshee is present means it lives up to the strict guidelines for > freedom Fedora requires and should be able to be considered on equal > footing. If we are second class citizens without any chance of ever > being included please tell us officially, I am sure I and the other > people working tirelessly to improve Mono would love to know if we are > wasting our time, if that is the case it might save everyone a lot of > headaches and wasted manhours of contributions that could be invested > in non-Fedora venue which is interested in this work. > > I am aware of the media size increase, it is noted as a con. I know > there is space to be saved by getting the debug stripper fixed to > understand mono as every package currently ships those included since > this functionality still isn't present. i have also been able to shave > a bit off cleaning out the dependency chain. I am also investigating > other improvements to our mono stack which should give size decreases > for the entire stack. > > > Also from what I read, it also joins the functionality of video and > audio players... Well, while there is some non-zero intersection of > those, I don't quite like having it both managed by one app. > That's not > how gnome apps usually do it. > > > I have to admit I kinda like it, I was skeptical at first. Where it > really starts to shine is for video podcasts, automatically downloaded > (and with a bit of dbus magic even torrent payloads can be downloaded > which is really powerful not to mention shiny). There is an increasing > intersection of differing kinds of media in peoples collections, > vodcasts, music videos, tv shows, movies, e.g. I believe it's valuable > to interact with them through the same library and application. > > - David Nielsen David, I am sure that everyone in the group appreciated your and others efforts to support Mono applications. I am interested in your comment about shaving off some of the size of the Mono "stack". We have been having the discussion about perceived desktop performance. In years past, as a real time systems programmer, I became very aware that one of the primary performance issues is the size of the code that is being executed. In reducing the size of the "stack", will you also be providing something of an inprovement to the perceived performance of the applications using that "stack"? -Roy Bynum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Feb 25 00:18:42 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:18:42 -0800 Subject: Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0902241544x30afe266nfc0e1e8e851d843f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> <1235517553.4617.26.camel@pc-notebook> <1dedbbfc0902241544x30afe266nfc0e1e8e851d843f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1235521122.9121.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 00:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > > Till such a time as Fedora deems Mono non-free, the fact that Mono and > banshee is present means it lives up to the strict guidelines for freedom > Fedora requires and should be able to be considered on equal footing. If we > are second class citizens without any chance of ever being included please > tell us officially, I am sure I and the other people working tirelessly to > improve Mono would love to know if we are wasting our time, if that is the > case it might save everyone a lot of headaches and wasted manhours of > contributions that could be invested in non-Fedora venue which is interested > in this work. Red Hat Enterprise Linux continues to not ship mono. Draw your own conclusions. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Feb 25 05:54:22 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:54:22 -0500 Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: <1234793721.3812.4.camel@matthiasc> References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> <1234776341.7158.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1234793721.3812.4.camel@matthiasc> Message-ID: <1235541262.5109.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 09:15 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On a less flippant note, somebody is already working on a package to add > submenus in a separate package, like the games-menus (?) package does to > the games menu. Turns out I was wrong and had to do this myself... Anybody who wants an easy way to get the Preferences submenus back is welcome to do the package review: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487263 Matthias From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 00:11:01 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:11:01 +0100 Subject: Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0902241544x30afe266nfc0e1e8e851d843f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> <1235517553.4617.26.camel@pc-notebook> <1dedbbfc0902241544x30afe266nfc0e1e8e851d843f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1235520661.4617.42.camel@pc-notebook> On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 00:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > Rhythmbox is not the default GNOME mediaplayer, GNOME only ships > Totem. > My mistake. > Till such a time as Fedora deems Mono non-free, the fact that Mono and > banshee is present means it lives up to the strict guidelines for > freedom Fedora requires and should be able to be considered on equal > footing. If we are second class citizens without any chance of ever > being included please tell us officially, I am sure I and the other > people working tirelessly to improve Mono would love to know if we are > wasting our time, if that is the case it might save everyone a lot of > headaches and wasted manhours of contributions that could be invested > in non-Fedora venue which is interested in this work. > I think it has/should have equal footing to say C++ or python stuff (that said, I prefer to have plain C applications as much as possible, partly because every other language needs an additional layer of bindings if it uses GTK+), but the design and the background being how it is makes it somehow less favourable choice for being installed by default (I recall when people [users] complained back in the time when mono was shipped first in Fedora about it actually being there, but times change...). But I certainly wouldn't hold it back *just* because of this. > Also from what I read, it also joins the functionality of > video and > audio players... Well, while there is some non-zero > intersection of > those, I don't quite like having it both managed by one app. > That's not > how gnome apps usually do it. > > I have to admit I kinda like it, I was skeptical at first. Where it > really starts to shine is for video podcasts, automatically downloaded > (and with a bit of dbus magic even torrent payloads can be downloaded > which is really powerful not to mention shiny). There is an increasing > intersection of differing kinds of media in peoples collections, > vodcasts, music videos, tv shows, movies, e.g. I believe it's valuable > to interact with them through the same library and application. > Well, it's valuable to interact with them through the same library, but I still prefer having say three tightly connected small applications optimized for the very task they ought to do rather than having a big one doing all that by itself... > - David Nielsen > Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jonstanley at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 06:56:27 2009 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:56:27 -0500 Subject: xguest by default? In-Reply-To: <49A48910.9060004@fedoraproject.org> References: <49A48910.9060004@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > xguest provides kiosk mode/ guest user functionality that is very useful for > desktop users. xguest has been available in the repository for a few How do you figure it's useful? I can only imagine the bug reports - "all my settings disappear when I log out!" "my wireless key keeps getting forgotten!" (insert any number of other complaints due to lack of understanding of what's going on here). Also, it requires SELinux to be in enforcing mode in order to do it's magic - according to smolt, we're at 54.8% of systems with SELinux enforcing (notwithstanding that smolt is obviously not an authoritative source of data, simply putting a stake in the ground here). Also, such an item would require exposure and testing. Feature freeze for Fedora 11 is under a week away. While it's useful to me for shows and whatnot when I want to leave my computer for anyone to play around with, I fail to see the general use case for such a thing. From gnomeuser at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 07:21:40 2009 From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 08:21:40 +0100 Subject: Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal In-Reply-To: <49A48E01.5010108@ieee.org> References: <1dedbbfc0902232344q2fa11f2bgd565adfe9aca894c@mail.gmail.com> <1235517553.4617.26.camel@pc-notebook> <1dedbbfc0902241544x30afe266nfc0e1e8e851d843f@mail.gmail.com> <49A48E01.5010108@ieee.org> Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0902242321r4441f279x246754c39337a031@mail.gmail.com> Den 25. feb. 2009 01.17 skrev Roy Bynum : > > David, > > I am sure that everyone in the group appreciated your and others efforts to > support Mono applications. I am interested in your comment about shaving > off some of the size of the Mono "stack". We have been having the > discussion about perceived desktop performance. In years past, as a real > time systems programmer, I became very aware that one of the primary > performance issues is the size of the code that is being executed. In > reducing the size of the "stack", will you also be providing something of an > inprovement to the perceived performance of the applications using that > "stack"? > The biggest win I suspect will be fixing the debug stripper and then introducing a mass rebuild of the mono packages. I unfortunately am not qualified to perform that change (I believe a bug exists for this). Then we might be able to gain some savings by looking hard at our support, I haven't looked into this suffiencently to see if it applies to the Fedora Mono stack but by cutting out the obsoleted Mono 1 support from the builds we should be able to cut some 15% from the existing packages. This last one comes from brief conversations with directhex who does Mono work in Ubuntu and has helped coordinate similar work between Ubuntu and Debian, I have not yet been able to get ahold of our Mono maintainer to determine if this is suitable for us. Aside that, I have noticed that as versions get bumped and libraries are replaced the spec files aren't getting updated correctly always. Having a review of what we truly need to depend on is valuable. I was able to cut a bit of fat from the banshee build already this way. I am hoping an approach of little gains here and there will both improve the Mono stack and get us closer to reaching the cd size limit. At any rate it is valuable work. Also on the list of things to do currently is fixing up the Mono packages to actually ship their documentation and update monodocs index, these will become separate packages and should not add any fat though. All of this though should be fairly irrelvant when it come to the debate at hand, namely the technical merits of Banshee. I have contacted the two main upstream maintainers and they have both kindly agreed to attend an eventual IRC meeting to help answer questions as well as expanding the feature proposal page. - David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Feb 25 08:26:32 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:56:32 +0530 Subject: xguest by default? In-Reply-To: References: <49A48910.9060004@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <49A500B8.3080806@fedoraproject.org> Jon Stanley wrote: > On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: > >> xguest provides kiosk mode/ guest user functionality that is very useful for >> desktop users. xguest has been available in the repository for a few > > How do you figure it's useful? I can only imagine the bug reports - > "all my settings disappear when I log out!" "my wireless key keeps > getting forgotten!" (insert any number of other complaints due to lack > of understanding of what's going on here). Guest user facility is a standard feature is systems like Vista, OS X or even Ubuntu recently. I demo'ed this feature recently to some users who very much liked it. > > Also, it requires SELinux to be in enforcing mode in order to do it's > magic - according to smolt, we're at 54.8% of systems with SELinux > enforcing (notwithstanding that smolt is obviously not an > authoritative source of data, simply putting a stake in the ground > here). Not only is it not authoritative, it is wrong since it was collecting incorrect information due to some bug IIRC > > Also, such an item would require exposure and testing. Feature freeze > for Fedora 11 is under a week away. Feature freeze doesn't determine testing and xguest is not a new feature. Rahul From caolanm at redhat.com Wed Feb 25 09:16:53 2009 From: caolanm at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Caol=E1n?= McNamara) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:16:53 +0000 Subject: Another F11 feature worth testing In-Reply-To: <1235519293.5109.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1235503566.3501.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1235518482.28363.1.camel@Vain> <1235519293.5109.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1235553413.28363.9.camel@Vain> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 18:48 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 23:34 +0000, Caol?n McNamara wrote: > > On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 14:26 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > Here is another F11 feature that will become complete enough to warrant > > > testing in the next few days: > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AutoFontsAndMimeInstaller > > > > What's the technical kung-foo behind the auto-font stuff ? Might be good > > if OOo did it too, though sort of late now to do anything about it for > > F-11 if its intricate. > > There is a loadable GTK+ module that hooks into the Pango fontmap to do > the magic: /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/modules/libpk-gtk-module.so > Pango will then call back with any languages which need > installing, Are we talking less "Automatic Font Installation" in a "you don't Liberation Serif which this document wants to use, want to install it" kind of a way but more "Automatic code-point coverage font installation" in a "to display this text you need a font that contains the requested glyphs". C. From hughsient at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 09:51:16 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:51:16 +0000 Subject: Another F11 feature worth testing In-Reply-To: <1235553413.28363.9.camel@Vain> References: <1235503566.3501.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1235518482.28363.1.camel@Vain> <1235519293.5109.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1235553413.28363.9.camel@Vain> Message-ID: <1235555476.3770.6.camel@hughsie-work.lan> On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 09:16 +0000, Caol?n McNamara wrote: > Are we talking less "Automatic Font Installation" in a "you don't > Liberation Serif which this document wants to use, want to install it" > kind of a way but more "Automatic code-point coverage font installation" > in a "to display this text you need a font that contains the requested > glyphs". Yes. You can use PackageKit if you want a specific font name, although that's not covered in this feature. The abiword guys were interested in using PackageKit to install fonts and dictionaries at one point, although I don't think there is any code yet. Richard. From caolanm at redhat.com Wed Feb 25 10:00:56 2009 From: caolanm at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Caol=E1n?= McNamara) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:00:56 +0000 Subject: Another F11 feature worth testing In-Reply-To: <1235555476.3770.6.camel@hughsie-work.lan> References: <1235503566.3501.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1235518482.28363.1.camel@Vain> <1235519293.5109.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1235553413.28363.9.camel@Vain> <1235555476.3770.6.camel@hughsie-work.lan> Message-ID: <1235556056.491.1.camel@Vain> On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 09:51 +0000, Richard Hughes wrote: > On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 09:16 +0000, Caol?n McNamara wrote: > > Are we talking less "Automatic Font Installation" in a "you don't > > Liberation Serif which this document wants to use, want to install it" > > kind of a way but more "Automatic code-point coverage font installation" > > in a "to display this text you need a font that contains the requested > > glyphs". > > Yes. You can use PackageKit if you want a specific font name, although > that's not covered in this feature. Righeo then, so collect up failed glyph replacement attempts, massage the data and bang them out every now and then. Sounds doable. C. From stickster at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 14:14:24 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:14:24 -0500 Subject: Another F11 feature worth testing In-Reply-To: <1235503566.3501.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1235503566.3501.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090225141424.GF19287@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 02:26:06PM -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Here is another F11 feature that will become complete enough to warrant > testing in the next few days: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AutoFontsAndMimeInstaller > > The mass rebuild that is currently underway will make sure that the > font- and mimehandler-installing packages gain the Provides that are > necessary to make this work. > > Please give it a try once the mass rebuild lands in rawhide. Just a note FWIW -- this was a future feature to which I made frequent reference in interviews and other press hoo-ha for the F10 release. It would be great to point to this as part of the F11 press push, and clearly indicate how we deliver on the tech promises made earlier. Thank you to the Desktop and RPM developers who made this possible! This is an area where the free software desktop shows its stuff as a truly user-friendly environment. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From notting at redhat.com Wed Feb 25 15:51:00 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:51:00 -0500 Subject: xguest by default? In-Reply-To: <49A48910.9060004@fedoraproject.org> References: <49A48910.9060004@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20090225155059.GC15986@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > xguest provides kiosk mode/ guest user functionality that is very useful > for desktop users. xguest has been available in the repository for a few > releases but has little exposure since it is not included by default. > Can we consider including it by default in the live cd and perhaps the > DVD image as well? It currently works only with GDM. My understanding of xguest is that it affects non-xguest users due to its machinations of /tmp. Bill From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Feb 25 15:57:49 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:27:49 +0530 Subject: xguest by default? In-Reply-To: <20090225155059.GC15986@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <49A48910.9060004@fedoraproject.org> <20090225155059.GC15986@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <49A56A7D.70503@fedoraproject.org> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: >> xguest provides kiosk mode/ guest user functionality that is very useful >> for desktop users. xguest has been available in the repository for a few >> releases but has little exposure since it is not included by default. >> Can we consider including it by default in the live cd and perhaps the >> DVD image as well? It currently works only with GDM. > > My understanding of xguest is that it affects non-xguest users due to > its machinations of /tmp. CC'ing Dan Walsh. Rahul From behdad at behdad.org Wed Feb 25 19:16:23 2009 From: behdad at behdad.org (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:16:23 -0500 Subject: Another F11 feature worth testing In-Reply-To: <1235553413.28363.9.camel@Vain> References: <1235503566.3501.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1235518482.28363.1.camel@Vain> <1235519293.5109.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1235553413.28363.9.camel@Vain> Message-ID: <49A59907.90600@behdad.org> Caol?n McNamara wrote: > On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 18:48 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 23:34 +0000, Caol?n McNamara wrote: >>> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 14:26 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>>> Here is another F11 feature that will become complete enough to warrant >>>> testing in the next few days: >>>> >>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AutoFontsAndMimeInstaller >>> What's the technical kung-foo behind the auto-font stuff ? Might be good >>> if OOo did it too, though sort of late now to do anything about it for >>> F-11 if its intricate. >> There is a loadable GTK+ module that hooks into the Pango fontmap to do >> the magic: /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/modules/libpk-gtk-module.so > >> Pango will then call back with any languages which need >> installing, > > Are we talking less "Automatic Font Installation" in a "you don't > Liberation Serif which this document wants to use, want to install it" > kind of a way but more "Automatic code-point coverage font installation" > in a "to display this text you need a font that contains the requested > glyphs". The font packages are tagged with languages they support as well as the families they provide. For now, Pango+PackageKit only detect the missing language support case and offer installing fonts for the language. The PackageKit API supports suggesting installing families too. Apps like OO.o can use that. The problem however is how to detect a missing font, given all the aliasing that goes on. For example, if the document asks for Arial, and user has Liberation installed, the requirement is satisfied, but it's hard to detect. On the other hand, if Liberation is not installed, PackageKit currently has no way to know that the liberation-fonts package provides Arial compat fonts. Those kind of aliases need to be added manually on a per package basis. All in all, family-based autoinstallation is planned, but not fully fleshed out yet. behdad > C. > From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Feb 27 03:11:10 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:11:10 -0500 Subject: Menu structure change In-Reply-To: <1235541262.5109.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1233946901.5058.3.camel@matthiasc> <1234776341.7158.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1234793721.3812.4.camel@matthiasc> <1235541262.5109.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1235704270.3437.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> The preferences-menus package is in rawhide now, if you want to try it out.