From awilliam at redhat.com Sun Nov 1 23:21:37 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:21:37 -0800 Subject: Someone doesn't like black! Message-ID: <1257117697.2314.168.camel@adam.local.net> Matthias asked me to forward interesting forum threads to the list, so here's the first one I've seen: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=232976 someone doesn't like black notifications :) FWIW I don't much like black either (on a related note I hope color customization makes it into gnome-shell soon). Not sure if there's anything to do here other than tell him he's wrong and Fedora believes Black Is Good, though :) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Sun Nov 1 23:28:22 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:28:22 -0800 Subject: Someone doesn't like black! In-Reply-To: <1257117697.2314.168.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1257117697.2314.168.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1257118102.2314.169.camel@adam.local.net> On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 15:21 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > Matthias asked me to forward interesting forum threads to the list, so > here's the first one I've seen: > > http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=232976 > > someone doesn't like black notifications :) FWIW I don't much like black > either (on a related note I hope color customization makes it into > gnome-shell soon). Not sure if there's anything to do here other than > tell him he's wrong and Fedora believes Black Is Good, though :) Here's another guy: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=233012 he figured that he can install notification-daemon-engine-nodoka to get 'nicer' notifications... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Mon Nov 2 02:58:47 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 03:58:47 +0100 Subject: Someone doesn't like black! In-Reply-To: <1257118102.2314.169.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1257117697.2314.168.camel@adam.local.net> <1257118102.2314.169.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1257130727.3097.35.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Sonntag, den 01.11.2009, 15:28 -0800 schrieb Adam Williamson: > Here's another guy: And here are two more (me is one of them) http://marilyn.frields.org:8080/~paul/wordpress/?p=2753#comments I already outlined my criticism a month ago in this list, so I'm not going to repeat it here. To be fair, there are also people who like them. Paul wrote: "the newer notifications are more eye catching, which means they?re more effective at doing their job." I think this is no surprise, because the new notifications are *much* bigger then the old ones. Also, there is no discrimination between notification urgency [1], which IMO is a major drawback. Regards, Christoph [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=525867 From dtardon at redhat.com Mon Nov 2 06:04:17 2009 From: dtardon at redhat.com (David Tardon) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 07:04:17 +0100 Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <567393.3823.qm@web111606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <20091030160036.1FEA361A9F6@hormel.redhat.com> <567393.3823.qm@web111606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091102060416.GA17719@verda-stelo.englab.brq.redhat.com> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 03:46:08AM -0700, Hristo Petkov wrote: > Hi all, > Excuse me - just to ask: What is the idea of polishing F12 while F10 and F11 have fairly low reliability (in working with OpenOffice for example). > Today I tried to do some a little bit more complex operations with OpenOffice Writer under F11 and 'went in the Dimension-X'. > > Regards, > Christo Petkov > Hello Christo, could you tell us the reported bugs' numbers, please? Btw, what do you mean by 'went in the Dimension-X'? something like http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2009-10-15/ ? David From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Nov 2 08:10:39 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:10:39 +0200 Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <1257006196.2314.136.camel@adam.local.net> References: <567393.3823.qm@web111606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1257006196.2314.136.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <4AEE93FF.9090304@nicubunu.ro> On 10/31/2009 06:23 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Sat, 2009-10-31 at 03:46 -0700, Hristo Petkov wrote: >> Today I tried to do some a little bit more complex operations with >> OpenOffice Writer under F11 and 'went in the Dimension-X'. > > For a start, none of the people working on GNOME desktop polish are > OpenOffice.org coders. Your question is roughly akin to asking a house > painter why he isn't performing surgery on children; that just ain't how > things are organized. I am pretty sure our OOo maintainer (who is also a top upstream developer) *is* subscribed to this list (as he should be). With this being said, I acknowledge 'went in the Dimension-X' is totally useless as a bug report. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Nov 2 17:48:12 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 12:48:12 -0500 Subject: Where did the Shutdown button go ? Message-ID: <1257184092.1905.2.camel@planemask> Since I have gotten a question whether this is intentional, I'll mention it here: the latest gdm builds (since sometime early last week, I believe) don't have the Shutdown/Suspend/Hibernate) buttons in the greeter window anymore. Instead, there is a button with the 'power off' icon in the lower right corner which provides access to this functionality. Matthias From vaeood at yahoo.com Mon Nov 2 18:20:13 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:20:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <20091102170026.7101A61A733@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <855688.55468.qm@web111618.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, black is O.K. but if there are people who don't like it, this may become dark gray with a light edge for example. Regards --- On Mon, 11/2/09, fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com wrote: From: fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 2 To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 5:00 PM Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to ??? fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? fedora-desktop-list-owner at redhat.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Someone doesn't like black! (Adam Williamson) ???2. Re: Someone doesn't like black! (Adam Williamson) ???3. Re: Someone doesn't like black! (Christoph Wickert) ???4. Re: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35 (David Tardon) ???5. Re: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35 (Nicu Buculei) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:21:37 -0800 From: Adam Williamson Subject: Someone doesn't like black! To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Message-ID: <1257117697.2314.168.camel at adam.local.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Matthias asked me to forward interesting forum threads to the list, so here's the first one I've seen: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=232976 someone doesn't like black notifications :) FWIW I don't much like black either (on a related note I hope color customization makes it into gnome-shell soon). Not sure if there's anything to do here other than tell him he's wrong and Fedora believes Black Is Good, though :) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:28:22 -0800 From: Adam Williamson Subject: Re: Someone doesn't like black! To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Message-ID: <1257118102.2314.169.camel at adam.local.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 15:21 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > Matthias asked me to forward interesting forum threads to the list, so > here's the first one I've seen: > > http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=232976 > > someone doesn't like black notifications :) FWIW I don't much like black > either (on a related note I hope color customization makes it into > gnome-shell soon). Not sure if there's anything to do here other than > tell him he's wrong and Fedora believes Black Is Good, though :) Here's another guy: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=233012 he figured that he can install notification-daemon-engine-nodoka to get 'nicer' notifications... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 03:58:47 +0100 From: Christoph Wickert Subject: Re: Someone doesn't like black! To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1257130727.3097.35.camel at wicktop.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Am Sonntag, den 01.11.2009, 15:28 -0800 schrieb Adam Williamson: > Here's another guy: And here are two more (me is one of them) http://marilyn.frields.org:8080/~paul/wordpress/?p=2753#comments I already outlined my criticism a month ago in this list, so I'm not going to repeat it here. To be fair, there are also people who like them. Paul wrote: "the newer notifications are more eye catching, which means they?re more effective at doing their job." I think this is no surprise, because the new notifications are *much* bigger then the old ones. Also, there is no discrimination between notification urgency [1], which IMO is a major drawback. Regards, Christoph [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=525867 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 07:04:17 +0100 From: David Tardon Subject: Re: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35 To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Message-ID: <20091102060416.GA17719 at verda-stelo.englab.brq.redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 03:46:08AM -0700, Hristo Petkov wrote: > Hi all, > Excuse me - just to ask: What is the idea of polishing F12 while F10 and F11 have fairly low reliability (in working with OpenOffice for example). > Today I tried to do some a little bit more complex operations with OpenOffice Writer under F11 and 'went in the Dimension-X'. > > Regards, > Christo Petkov > Hello Christo, could you tell us the reported bugs' numbers, please? Btw, what do you mean by 'went in the Dimension-X'? something like http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2009-10-15/ ? David ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:10:39 +0200 From: Nicu Buculei Subject: Re: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35 To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <4AEE93FF.9090304 at nicubunu.ro> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 10/31/2009 06:23 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Sat, 2009-10-31 at 03:46 -0700, Hristo Petkov wrote: >> Today I tried to do some a little bit more complex operations with >> OpenOffice Writer under F11 and 'went in the Dimension-X'. > > For a start, none of the people working on GNOME desktop polish are > OpenOffice.org coders. Your question is roughly akin to asking a house > painter why he isn't performing surgery on children; that just ain't how > things are organized. I am pretty sure our OOo maintainer (who is also a top upstream developer) *is* subscribed to this list (as he should be). With this being said, I acknowledge 'went in the Dimension-X' is totally useless as a bug report. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ -- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list End of Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 2 ************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 18:42:40 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:42:40 -0500 Subject: Where did the Shutdown button go ? In-Reply-To: <1257184092.1905.2.camel@planemask> References: <1257184092.1905.2.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <20091102184240.GA7196@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Mon, Nov 02, 2009 at 12:48:12PM -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Since I have gotten a question whether this is intentional, I'll mention > it here: the latest gdm builds (since sometime early last week, I > believe) don't have the Shutdown/Suspend/Hibernate) buttons in the > greeter window anymore. Instead, there is a button with the 'power off' > icon in the lower right corner which provides access to this > functionality. Speaking just for myself as a general user, this made a lot more sense than having to select a user to get some of these functions, which ISTR is what happened previously. Looks cleaner too. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 06:07:11 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 01:07:11 -0500 Subject: Oh no you dit int Message-ID: <939dd5750911042207x48d82f20vc0a1227a33d784fc@mail.gmail.com> Stay classy Ubuntu https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-November/009934.html Jon From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Nov 5 09:03:38 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:33:38 +0530 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff Message-ID: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> Hi, There has been some discussions about the increasing space constrains on the Live CD and how we are better off targeting 1 GB USB keys with a Live DVD image. I looked into it today and I have generated a image based on the latest Rawhide. The image size is 1022 M. Let me know if the following looks alright: $ diff fedora-livecd-desktop.ks fedora-livedvd-desktop.ks 12a13 > @office 16,20c17,25 < # we don't include @office so that we don't get OOo. but some nice bits < abiword < #gnumeric < #planner < #inkscape --- > inkscape > gimp > pitivi > blender > powertop > gnome-shell > tracker-search-tool > gwibber > ekiga 28,30d32 < -hunspell-* < -man-pages* < -words 33,45d34 < -gnome-user-docs < -gimp-help < -gimp-help-browser < -gimp-data-extras < -evolution-help < -gnome-games < -gnome-games-help < -nss_db < -vino < -isdn4k-utils < -dasher < -evince-dvi < -evince-djvu 48d36 < -wget 51,52d38 < -ekiga < -tomboy 61,62c47,50 < -system-config-services < -policycoreutils-gui --- > system-config-services > policycoreutils-gui > > Rahul From awilliam at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 09:20:13 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:20:13 -0800 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1257412813.2316.7.camel@adam.local.net> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > $ diff fedora-livecd-desktop.ks fedora-livedvd-desktop.ks every time you forget to use 'diff -u', god kills a kitten. =) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 09:29:23 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:29:23 -0800 Subject: Ben Boeckel's GNOME odyssey Message-ID: <1257413363.2316.9.camel@adam.local.net> I expect most of you read Planet Fedora so you've probably seen these posts, but just in case - Ben Boeckel (a member of our KDE group) has been trying out GNOME, lately, and made some pretty interesting blog posts about his experience: http://benboeckel.net/blog/?p=128 http://benboeckel.net/blog/?p=129 http://benboeckel.net/blog/?p=130 I think they're definitely worth reading, at least. Just wanted to flag them up for anyone who didn't see them yet. Very well-considered. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Nov 5 09:25:37 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:55:37 +0530 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257412813.2316.7.camel@adam.local.net> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257412813.2316.7.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <4AF29A11.6000600@fedoraproject.org> On 11/05/2009 02:50 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> $ diff fedora-livecd-desktop.ks fedora-livedvd-desktop.ks > > every time you forget to use 'diff -u', god kills a kitten. =) Fair enough. Here you go: $ diff -u fedora-livecd-desktop.ks fedora-livedvd-desktop.ks --- --- fedora-livecd-desktop.ks 2009-10-27 14:55:42.000000000 +0530 +++ fedora-livedvd-desktop.ks 2009-11-05 10:54:17.000000000 +0530 @@ -10,14 +10,19 @@ @graphics @sound-and-video @gnome-desktop + at office nss-mdns NetworkManager-vpnc NetworkManager-openvpn -# we don't include @office so that we don't get OOo. but some nice bits -abiword -#gnumeric -#planner -#inkscape +inkscape +gimp +pitivi +blender +powertop +gnome-shell +tracker-search-tool +gwibber +ekiga # avoid weird case where we pull in more festival stuff than we need festival @@ -25,31 +30,12 @@ # dictionaries are big -aspell-* --hunspell-* --man-pages* --words # save some space --gnome-user-docs --gimp-help --gimp-help-browser --gimp-data-extras --evolution-help --gnome-games --gnome-games-help --nss_db --vino --isdn4k-utils --dasher --evince-dvi --evince-djvu # not needed for gnome -acpid --wget # these pull in excessive dependencies --ekiga --tomboy -f-spot # drop some system-config things @@ -58,8 +44,10 @@ -system-config-lvm -system-config-network -system-config-rootpassword --system-config-services --policycoreutils-gui +system-config-services +policycoreutils-gui + + %end %post --- Rahul From bnocera at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 12:53:27 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:53:27 +0000 Subject: Oh no you dit int In-Reply-To: <939dd5750911042207x48d82f20vc0a1227a33d784fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <939dd5750911042207x48d82f20vc0a1227a33d784fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1257425607.23167.165.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 01:07 -0500, William Jon McCann wrote: > Stay classy Ubuntu > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-November/009934.html Except that we've fixed loads of bugs in Fedora, so Fedora 12 will be the Ubuntu of Fedoras :) From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 13:55:57 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:55:57 -0500 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <4AF29A11.6000600@fedoraproject.org> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257412813.2316.7.camel@adam.local.net> <4AF29A11.6000600@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1257429357.1875.1.camel@planemask> There is at least one change I agree with: including OpenOffice instead of abiword. The rest, I am not so sure about. From davidz at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 18:20:13 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:20:13 -0500 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > The image size is 1022 M. This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. It would probably be helpful to do a quick study of actual sizes of 1GB USB sticks - we may end up wanting to do a 990 MB (990,000,000,000 bytes) image or something so the image works on as many USB sticks as possible. David From notting at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 18:24:54 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:24:54 -0500 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > The image size is 1022 M. > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll have for any overlay. Bill From davidz at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 18:35:26 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:35:26 -0500 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > have for any overlay. Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for the overlay. Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. David From awilliam at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 19:55:01 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:55:01 -0800 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:35 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > have for any overlay. > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > the overlay. > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about including useless crap. And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with absurd caps like 10GB/month? I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' image 2GB big'. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 19:56:42 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:56:42 -0500 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > image 2GB big'. > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. From drago01 at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 20:05:30 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:05:30 +0100 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. >> > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. Finally we can move away from the 1990s (CDs), but yeah I agree besides OO.org I can't think of an app that I really miss on the live media. Just because we do have more space available does not mean that we have to fill it with random crap. From davidz at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 20:34:51 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:34:51 -0500 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1257453291.17978.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it > creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in > a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is > starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about > including useless crap. Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but > bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with > absurd caps like 10GB/month? They do have mirrors in Australia. > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > image 2GB big'. No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake to say it should be. Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six CDs. F13 will be released in 2010. David From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Thu Nov 5 20:37:43 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:37:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257453291.17978.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257453291.17978.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: >> Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it >> creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in >> a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is >> starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about >> including useless crap. > > Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. > > (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD > desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > > http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > > on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > >> And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but >> bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with >> absurd caps like 10GB/month? > > They do have mirrors in Australia. > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > to say it should be. > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > CDs. > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install via the net talking to a local mirror. not disputing any other points - but it's not like the super-small image has ever been 6-cds. -sv From herrmann at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 20:47:02 2009 From: herrmann at redhat.com (Lars Herrmann) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:47:02 +0100 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1257454022.3222.8636.camel@x61.sulz> Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > image 2GB big'. > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or language-group spins ? Just a thought Lars From notting at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 20:50:01 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:50:01 -0500 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257454022.3222.8636.camel@x61.sulz> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask> <1257454022.3222.8636.camel@x61.sulz> Message-ID: <20091105205000.GA2428@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Lars Herrmann (herrmann at redhat.com) said: > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? That explodes the testing matrix, though. (And makes something that needs to support some superset of languages a mess.) Bill From drago01 at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 20:50:17 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:50:17 +0100 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257454022.3222.8636.camel@x61.sulz> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask> <1257454022.3222.8636.camel@x61.sulz> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: >> >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> > image 2GB big'. >> > >> >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? > > Just a thought Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." From davidz at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 20:52:28 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:52:28 -0500 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257453291.17978.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1257454348.17978.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > > CDs. > > > > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they > were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install > via the net talking to a local mirror. Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to install.) Thanks, David From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Thu Nov 5 20:56:22 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:56:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257454348.17978.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257453291.17978.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257454348.17978.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: >>> Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, >>> we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six >>> CDs. >>> >> >> Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they >> were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install >> via the net talking to a local mirror. > > Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a > minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were > properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). > > Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. > I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to > install.) yep. In f11 it's called netinst. Fedora-11-i386-netinst.iso for example. it's 177MB. Which is pretty light weight. It has stage2 on it iirc. -sv From herrmann at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 20:58:45 2009 From: herrmann at redhat.com (Lars Herrmann) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:58:45 +0100 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask> <1257454022.3222.8636.camel@x61.sulz> Message-ID: <1257454725.3222.8695.camel@x61.sulz> Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 21:50 +0100 schrieb drago01: > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> > >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> > image 2GB big'. > >> > > >> > >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > language-group spins ? > > > > Just a thought > > Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user > experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't > acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." > The point is that it in fact *is* annoying that a significant chunk of space goes to totally irrelevant packages. I am typically installing 3 languages on my system and I am sure this represents a tiny fraction of the user base. North of 90% will never ever use more than one language. And they will know which one they need prior to downloading ;) Having a button in the distro to "add a language" is a useful feature anyway - it's a bit of a pain today if you want to add a language later and have to find out which packages to add. Same goes for removing. But I'm not aware of all implications of course ... Lars From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Nov 5 21:20:30 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:20:30 -0500 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257454022.3222.8636.camel@x61.sulz> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask> <1257454022.3222.8636.camel@x61.sulz> Message-ID: <1257456030.2589.0.camel@planemask> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 21:47 +0100, Lars Herrmann wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > > image 2GB big'. > > > > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? > > Just a thought > I did that experiment back in August. Here is what I wrote back then: > Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso > size up to 825M. > > Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up > to 820M. > > This is without any openoffice lang packs. From stickster at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 22:56:29 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:56:29 -0500 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20091105225629.GC2894@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 01:35:26PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > have for any overlay. > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > the overlay. > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. The price differences between 1GB and 2GB sticks seem minimal (and you can find some 2GB cheaper than 1GB, of course). I lobbied purposely with the Red Hat Summit organizers to make sure we gave out Fedora on 2GB keys so that we could have a sizable key. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Nov 6 09:10:14 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:10:14 +0200 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <1257453291.17978.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257453291.17978.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4AF3E7F6.9070106@nicubunu.ro> On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > > http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ + 1 million > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > to say it should be. How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what is about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at 1 GB (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of the write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, having the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the possibility to throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From odmirajkar at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 12:40:16 2009 From: odmirajkar at gmail.com (onkar mirajkar) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:10:16 +0530 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <4AF3E7F6.9070106@nicubunu.ro> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257453291.17978.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4AF3E7F6.9070106@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <3492acc30911060440m48a62286qf58f18beec83b46d@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Few days back I created a Ubnutu live USB. But I recognize that its not good for my day to day use as it doesnot allow me to add my own packages like VLC. Is this a general problem with all Live USB as there are live dvd creator which allows me to add my own packages. I think its good idea to add this feature as USB is read wirte device not read only like DVD so that user can install their own software and customize thier live USB. Thanks, Onkar 2009/11/6 Nicu Buculei > On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > >> >> Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the >> space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for >> software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things >> like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include >> >> http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ >> > > + 1 million > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >>> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >>> image 2GB big'. >>> >> >> No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest >> 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake >> to say it should be. >> > > How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what is > about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at 1 GB > (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of the > write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, having > the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the possibility to > throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. > > -- > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Nov 6 13:47:35 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 15:47:35 +0200 Subject: Desktop Live DVD: diff In-Reply-To: <3492acc30911060440m48a62286qf58f18beec83b46d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AF294EA.5020105@fedoraproject.org> <1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257453291.17978.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4AF3E7F6.9070106@nicubunu.ro> <3492acc30911060440m48a62286qf58f18beec83b46d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF428F7.2000108@nicubunu.ro> On 11/06/2009 02:40 PM, onkar mirajkar wrote: > Few days back I created a Ubnutu live USB. But I recognize that its not > good for my day to day use as it doesnot allow me to add my own packages > like VLC. > Is this a general problem with all Live USB as there are live dvd > creator which allows me to add my own packages. > I think its good idea to add this feature as USB is read wirte device > not read only like DVD so that user can install their own software and > customize thier live USB. When you are witting a Fedora image on an USB device you have the option to add "live persistence", so if you install or update applications, the changes will be written. For this you will have to copy the image using the livecd-iso-to-disk script or the equivalent GUI (i.e. not with dd). -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 17:03:07 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 12:03:07 -0500 Subject: Is it, or isn't it? Message-ID: <20091106170307.GT4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> http://identi.ca/notice/13932136 Matthias, Jon, et al., I'm interested in your take on the above, so I can authentically characterize the work you've done on notification theming. Paul From awilliam at redhat.com Fri Nov 6 17:12:08 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 09:12:08 -0800 Subject: Is it, or isn't it? In-Reply-To: <20091106170307.GT4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091106170307.GT4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1257527528.2377.10.camel@adam.local.net> On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 12:03 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > http://identi.ca/notice/13932136 > > Matthias, Jon, et al., I'm interested in your take on the above, so I > can authentically characterize the work you've done on notification > theming. wow! they are both dark with rounded corners! perhaps we can politely point out how much 'imitation' ubuntu does of fedora? :) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From herrmann at redhat.com Fri Nov 6 17:14:15 2009 From: herrmann at redhat.com (Lars Herrmann) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:14:15 +0100 Subject: Is it, or isn't it? In-Reply-To: <1257527528.2377.10.camel@adam.local.net> References: <20091106170307.GT4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> <1257527528.2377.10.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1257527655.3226.3757.camel@x61.sulz> Am Freitag, den 06.11.2009, 09:12 -0800 schrieb Adam Williamson: > On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 12:03 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > http://identi.ca/notice/13932136 > > > > Matthias, Jon, et al., I'm interested in your take on the above, so I > > can authentically characterize the work you've done on notification > > theming. > > wow! they are both dark with rounded corners! > > perhaps we can politely point out how much 'imitation' ubuntu does of > fedora? :) If google can get a design patent for their website layout, why should ubuntu not claim dark with rounded corners "their" invention ? should somebody maybe blog about prior art ? ;) > > -- > Adam Williamson > Fedora QA Community Monkey > IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org > http://www.happyassassin.net > From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Nov 6 17:18:45 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:18:45 -0500 Subject: Is it, or isn't it? In-Reply-To: <20091106170307.GT4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091106170307.GT4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1257527926.1903.9.camel@planemask> On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 12:03 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > http://identi.ca/notice/13932136 > > Matthias, Jon, et al., I'm interested in your take on the above, so I > can authentically characterize the work you've done on notification > theming. They are similar, I grant you that. But the original is a 'growl' on OS X, I believe. And indeed, imitation _is_ the sincerest form of flattery :-) From awilliam at redhat.com Fri Nov 6 17:29:20 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 09:29:20 -0800 Subject: Is it, or isn't it? In-Reply-To: <1257527926.1903.9.camel@planemask> References: <20091106170307.GT4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> <1257527926.1903.9.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1257528560.2377.11.camel@adam.local.net> On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 12:18 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 12:03 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > http://identi.ca/notice/13932136 > > > > Matthias, Jon, et al., I'm interested in your take on the above, so I > > can authentically characterize the work you've done on notification > > theming. > > They are similar, I grant you that. > But the original is a 'growl' on OS X, I believe. > And indeed, imitation _is_ the sincerest form of flattery :-) have some 'dent' back with a link to a screenshot of the growl in question and the text just 'indeed it is'? too obtuse? :) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From bnocera at redhat.com Fri Nov 6 17:43:27 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:43:27 +0000 Subject: Is it, or isn't it? In-Reply-To: <1257528560.2377.11.camel@adam.local.net> References: <20091106170307.GT4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> <1257527926.1903.9.camel@planemask> <1257528560.2377.11.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1257529407.23167.184.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 09:29 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 12:18 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 12:03 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > http://identi.ca/notice/13932136 > > > > > > Matthias, Jon, et al., I'm interested in your take on the above, so I > > > can authentically characterize the work you've done on notification > > > theming. > > > > They are similar, I grant you that. > > But the original is a 'growl' on OS X, I believe. > > And indeed, imitation _is_ the sincerest form of flattery :-) > > have some 'dent' back with a link to a screenshot of the growl in > question and the text just 'indeed it is'? too obtuse? :) Something like that: http://wincent.com/a/about/wincent/weblog/growl-notifications.png Even if those notifications look quite alike, they're not implemented the same way. One is a theme to the notification-daemon, and can be replaced, the other one is a complete reimplementation. From wwoods at redhat.com Fri Nov 6 17:48:05 2009 From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:48:05 -0500 Subject: Is it, or isn't it? In-Reply-To: <20091106170307.GT4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091106170307.GT4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1257529685.2346.27.camel@metroid> On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 12:03 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > http://identi.ca/notice/13932136 > > Matthias, Jon, et al., I'm interested in your take on the above, so I > can authentically characterize the work you've done on notification > theming. But yeah, the Growl notification system for Mac OS X has had notification windows like this since 2005 - maybe earlier. Smoke notification style, bottom of http://growl.info/screenshots.php May '05: Growl 0.7 adds a mouseover effect for Smoke: http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/24638&vid=206464&mode=info Jan '07: 3rd-party screenshots show it in wide use, e.g.: http://www.tribler.org/trac/wiki/Growl Dec '08: Initial design discussions of Ubuntu NotifyOSD http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/253 Feb '09: NotifyOSD wiki page created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD?action=recall&rev=1 At this point it's old enough to almost be a visual clich?. But if someone wants to insist on giving credit for the design that's where I'd think the credit might be due. -w From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 18:01:28 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 13:01:28 -0500 Subject: Is it, or isn't it? In-Reply-To: <1257529407.23167.184.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20091106170307.GT4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> <1257527926.1903.9.camel@planemask> <1257528560.2377.11.camel@adam.local.net> <1257529407.23167.184.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20091106180128.GZ4048@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Fri, Nov 06, 2009 at 05:43:27PM +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 09:29 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 12:18 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 12:03 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > http://identi.ca/notice/13932136 > > > > > > > > Matthias, Jon, et al., I'm interested in your take on the above, so I > > > > can authentically characterize the work you've done on notification > > > > theming. > > > > > > They are similar, I grant you that. > > > But the original is a 'growl' on OS X, I believe. > > > And indeed, imitation _is_ the sincerest form of flattery :-) > > > > have some 'dent' back with a link to a screenshot of the growl in > > question and the text just 'indeed it is'? too obtuse? :) > > Something like that: > http://wincent.com/a/about/wincent/weblog/growl-notifications.png > > Even if those notifications look quite alike, they're not implemented > the same way. One is a theme to the notification-daemon, and can be > replaced, the other one is a complete reimplementation. Trying to keep things on the high road: http://identi.ca/notice/13957006 -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From vaeood at yahoo.com Fri Nov 6 19:49:26 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:49:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <20091106124025.2F33A61B4F4@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <380125.40620.qm@web111604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Guys, I have a proposal. In my view this DVD is too complex to be made universal for various types of machines. Suppose the good old Live CD is furnished with a reference to the Fedora Project website and there to be installed an expert system advising the users depending on their machine, their periphery and their application goals what to install what is better to install instead of what and what is not entirely advisable to be installed. How to make a full-featured high-speed desktop from ground zero (from the live CD on formatted HD) in a couple of hours, etc. Things like that. Just a proposal. Best regards Christo Petkov --- On Fri, 11/6/09, fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com wrote: From: fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 5 To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 12:40 PM Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to ??? fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? fedora-desktop-list-owner at redhat.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff (David Zeuthen) ???2. Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff (Bill Nottingham) ???3. Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff (David Zeuthen) ???4. Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff (Adam Williamson) ???5. Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff (Matthias Clasen) ???6. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (drago01) ???7. Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff (David Zeuthen) ???8. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Seth Vidal) ???9. Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff (Lars Herrmann) ? 10. Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff (Bill Nottingham) ? 11. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (drago01) ? 12. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) ? 13. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Seth Vidal) ? 14. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Lars Herrmann) ? 15. Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff (Matthias Clasen) ? 16. Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff (Paul W. Frields) ? 17. Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff (Nicu Buculei) ? 18. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (onkar mirajkar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:20:13 -0500 From: David Zeuthen Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff To: sundaram at fedoraproject.org,??? Discussions about development for the ??? Fedora desktop??? Message-ID: <1257445213.15710.18.camel at localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > The image size is 1022 M. This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. It would probably be helpful to do a quick study of actual sizes of 1GB USB sticks - we may end up wanting to do a 990 MB (990,000,000,000 bytes) image or something so the image works on as many USB sticks as possible. ? ? David ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:24:54 -0500 From: Bill Nottingham Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <20091105182453.GA16392 at nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > The image size is 1022 M. > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll have for any overlay. Bill ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:35:26 -0500 From: David Zeuthen Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1257446126.15710.30.camel at localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > have for any overlay. Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for the overlay. Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. ? ? David ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:55:01 -0800 From: Adam Williamson Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1257450902.2316.11.camel at adam.local.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:35 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > have for any overlay. > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > the overlay. > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about including useless crap. And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with absurd caps like 10GB/month? I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' image 2GB big'. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:56:42 -0500 From: Matthias Clasen Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1257451002.1875.2.camel at planemask> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > image 2GB big'. > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:05:30 +0100 From: drago01 Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. >> > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. Finally we can move away from the 1990s (CDs), but yeah I agree besides OO.org I can't think of an app that I really miss on the live media. Just because we do have more space available does not mean that we have to fill it with random crap. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:34:51 -0500 From: David Zeuthen Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1257453291.17978.12.camel at localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it > creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in > a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is > starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about > including useless crap. Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include ? http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but > bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with > absurd caps like 10GB/month? They do have mirrors in Australia. > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > image 2GB big'. No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake to say it should be. Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six CDs. F13 will be released in 2010. ? ???David ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:37:43 -0500 (EST) From: Seth Vidal Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: >> Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it >> creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in >> a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is >> starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about >> including useless crap. > > Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. > > (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD > desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > >? http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > > on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > >> And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but >> bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with >> absurd caps like 10GB/month? > > They do have mirrors in Australia. > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > to say it should be. > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > CDs. > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install via the net talking to a local mirror. not disputing any other points - but it's not like the super-small image has ever been 6-cds. -sv ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:47:02 +0100 From: Lars Herrmann Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1257454022.3222.8636.camel at x61.sulz> Content-Type: text/plain Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > image 2GB big'. > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or language-group spins ? Just a thought Lars ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:50:01 -0500 From: Bill Nottingham Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <20091105205000.GA2428 at nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lars Herrmann (herrmann at redhat.com) said: > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? That explodes the testing matrix, though. (And makes something that needs to support some superset of languages a mess.) Bill ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:50:17 +0100 From: drago01 Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: >> >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> > image 2GB big'. >> > >> >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? > > Just a thought Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:52:28 -0500 From: David Zeuthen Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1257454348.17978.16.camel at localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > > CDs. > > > > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they > were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install > via the net talking to a local mirror. Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to install.) Thanks, David ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:56:22 -0500 (EST) From: Seth Vidal Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: >>> Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, >>> we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six >>> CDs. >>> >> >> Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they >> were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install >> via the net talking to a local mirror. > > Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a > minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were > properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). > > Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. > I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to > install.) yep. In f11 it's called netinst. Fedora-11-i386-netinst.iso for example. it's 177MB. Which is pretty light weight. It has stage2 on it iirc. -sv ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:58:45 +0100 From: Lars Herrmann Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1257454725.3222.8695.camel at x61.sulz> Content-Type: text/plain Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 21:50 +0100 schrieb drago01: > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> > >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> > image 2GB big'. > >> > > >> > >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > language-group spins ? > > > > Just a thought > > Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user > experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't > acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." > The point is that it in fact *is* annoying that a significant chunk of space goes to totally irrelevant packages. I am typically installing 3 languages on my system and I am sure this represents a tiny fraction of the user base. North of 90% will never ever use more than one language. And they will know which one they need prior to downloading ;) Having a button in the distro to "add a language" is a useful feature anyway - it's a bit of a pain today if you want to add a language later and have to find out which packages to add. Same goes for removing. But I'm not aware of all implications of course ... Lars ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:20:30 -0500 From: Matthias Clasen Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1257456030.2589.0.camel at planemask> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 21:47 +0100, Lars Herrmann wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > > image 2GB big'. > > > > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? > > Just a thought > I did that experiment back in August. Here is what I wrote back then: > Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso > size up to 825M. > > Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up > to 820M. > > This is without any openoffice lang packs. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:56:29 -0500 From: "Paul W. Frields" Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Message-ID: <20091105225629.GC2894 at victoria.internal.frields.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 01:35:26PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > have for any overlay. > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > the overlay. > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. The price differences between 1GB and 2GB sticks seem minimal (and you can find some 2GB cheaper than 1GB, of course).? I lobbied purposely with the Red Hat Summit organizers to make sure we gave out Fedora on 2GB keys so that we could have a sizable key. -- Paul W. Frields? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://paul.frields.org/ ? gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233? 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 ? http://redhat.com/???-? -? -? -???http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ ? irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:10:14 +0200 From: Nicu Buculei Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD:? diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <4AF3E7F6.9070106 at nicubunu.ro> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > >? ? http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ + 1 million > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > to say it should be. How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what is about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at 1 GB (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of the write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, having the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the possibility to throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:10:16 +0530 From: onkar mirajkar Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: ??? <3492acc30911060440m48a62286qf58f18beec83b46d at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, Few days back I created a Ubnutu live USB. But I recognize that its not good for my day to day use as it doesnot allow me to add my own packages like VLC. Is this a general problem with all Live USB as there are live dvd creator which allows me to add my own packages. I think its good idea to add this feature as USB is read wirte device not read only like DVD so that user can install their own software and customize thier live USB. Thanks, Onkar 2009/11/6 Nicu Buculei > On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > >> >> Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the >> space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for >> software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things >> like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include >> >>???http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ >> > > + 1 million > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >>> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >>> image 2GB big'. >>> >> >> No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest >> 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake >> to say it should be. >> > > How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what is > about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at 1 GB > (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of the > write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, having > the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the possibility to > throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. > > -- > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/attachments/20091106/b92d89d8/attachment.html ------------------------------ -- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list End of Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 5 ************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From awilliam at redhat.com Sun Nov 8 20:23:30 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 12:23:30 -0800 Subject: Opinion of inclusion of PackageKit-command-not-found on the desktop spin Message-ID: <1257711810.3828.35.camel@adam.local.net> Hi, guys. Jesse and I would like to get an opinion from the desktop team on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=533553 - the request to drop PackageKit-command-not-found from the desktop spin. Jens went ahead and did this unilaterally and Matthias reverted it, which is understandable, but what we're not sure of is whether Matthias was worried only about the unilateral nature of Jens' move or whether you really want to keep command-not-found on the live spin. We'd probably prefer to take it out, since it's just too buggy: it's a great concept, but it breaks far too easily at the moment, I've seen it cause the yum database to be stuck for a long time and someone else on the bug has seen it peg out all his CPUs. It just seems too fragile to have it around by default yet. But we didn't want to just get involved in a revert war, so we're trying to get an opinion. We're probably going to have to do an RC4 spin and it's going to have to be within the next few hours, that's our window for this change; so if you could reply in the next few hours that'd be great. Thanks! -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Sun Nov 8 21:03:26 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:03:26 -0800 Subject: Opinion of inclusion of PackageKit-command-not-found on the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1257711810.3828.35.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1257711810.3828.35.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1257714206.3828.36.camel@adam.local.net> On Sun, 2009-11-08 at 12:23 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > Hi, guys. Jesse and I would like to get an opinion from the desktop team > on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=533553 - the request to > drop PackageKit-command-not-found from the desktop spin. never mind, we're going to go ahead and keep it. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From mclasen at redhat.com Sun Nov 8 21:51:39 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 16:51:39 -0500 Subject: Opinion of inclusion of PackageKit-command-not-found on the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1257711810.3828.35.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1257711810.3828.35.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1257717099.1905.7.camel@planemask> On Sun, 2009-11-08 at 12:23 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > Hi, guys. Jesse and I would like to get an opinion from the desktop team > on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=533553 - the request to > drop PackageKit-command-not-found from the desktop spin. > > Jens went ahead and did this unilaterally and Matthias reverted it, > which is understandable, but what we're not sure of is whether Matthias > was worried only about the unilateral nature of Jens' move or whether > you really want to keep command-not-found on the live spin. We'd > probably prefer to take it out, since it's just too buggy: it's a great > concept, but it breaks far too easily at the moment, I've seen it cause > the yum database to be stuck for a long time and someone else on the bug > has seen it peg out all his CPUs. It just seems too fragile to have it > around by default yet. > > But we didn't want to just get involved in a revert war, so we're trying > to get an opinion. We're probably going to have to do an RC4 spin and > it's going to have to be within the next few hours, that's our window > for this change; so if you could reply in the next few hours that'd be > great. Thanks! > There's no way to have a discussion about this 'within the next few hours'. It is weekend, and some people try to have a few hours off on those... If you ask me, it is just too late to make a giant stink about a minor thing. We could have had this discussion after the beta, but nobody complained then. Now we are post-RC, and suddenly people propose drastic measures with deadlines of only a few hours. I've asked Richard to look at doing a 0-day update to fix the more serious problems. Matthias From awilliam at redhat.com Sun Nov 8 22:14:40 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:14:40 -0800 Subject: Opinion of inclusion of PackageKit-command-not-found on the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1257717099.1905.7.camel@planemask> References: <1257711810.3828.35.camel@adam.local.net> <1257717099.1905.7.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1257718480.3828.46.camel@adam.local.net> On Sun, 2009-11-08 at 16:51 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > There's no way to have a discussion about this 'within the next few > hours'. It is weekend, and some people try to have a few hours off on > those... I know, but it was worth asking to see if anyone was around to give some input. > If you ask me, it is just too late to make a giant stink about a minor > thing. We could have had this discussion after the beta, but nobody > complained then. Now we are post-RC, and suddenly people propose drastic > measures with deadlines of only a few hours. > > I've asked Richard to look at doing a 0-day update to fix the more > serious problems. right - as I followed-up a few minutes later, we agreed and we're leaving it in there. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Nov 9 13:48:39 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:48:39 -0500 Subject: Opinion of inclusion of PackageKit-command-not-found on the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1257714206.3828.36.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1257711810.3828.35.camel@adam.local.net> <1257714206.3828.36.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1257774519.3826.2.camel@planemask> On Sun, 2009-11-08 at 13:03 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Sun, 2009-11-08 at 12:23 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > Hi, guys. Jesse and I would like to get an opinion from the desktop team > > on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=533553 - the request to > > drop PackageKit-command-not-found from the desktop spin. > > never mind, we're going to go ahead and keep it. > And Richard was so nice to look into the problems first thing Monday morning. Here http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=140408 is a build that fixes a lot of the issues. There is at least one more build coming to fix the more cosmetic issues (newlines, etc). I'm confident we'll have a 0-day update that will make PK-command-not-found work acceptably. Thanks for insisting on quality ! Matthias From awilliam at redhat.com Mon Nov 9 15:38:34 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 07:38:34 -0800 Subject: Opinion of inclusion of PackageKit-command-not-found on the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1257774519.3826.2.camel@planemask> References: <1257711810.3828.35.camel@adam.local.net> <1257714206.3828.36.camel@adam.local.net> <1257774519.3826.2.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1257781114.2275.6.camel@adam.local.net> On Mon, 2009-11-09 at 08:48 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Sun, 2009-11-08 at 13:03 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Sun, 2009-11-08 at 12:23 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > Hi, guys. Jesse and I would like to get an opinion from the desktop team > > > on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=533553 - the request to > > > drop PackageKit-command-not-found from the desktop spin. > > > > never mind, we're going to go ahead and keep it. > > > > And Richard was so nice to look into the problems first thing Monday > morning. Here > > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=140408 > > is a build that fixes a lot of the issues. There is at least one more > build coming to fix the more cosmetic issues (newlines, etc). I'm > confident we'll have a 0-day update that will make PK-command-not-found > work acceptably. > > Thanks for insisting on quality ! sounds great, thanks. I think the biggest problem for the live CD is that it gives you no idea when it's 'processing' (checking yum info), so if you boot live, and type a command that doesn't exist...you get to sit at a console that just says 'Command not found.' for about 3 minutes while it goes out and gets yum metadata. It's easy to assume it's just broken. A big help for updaters and future releases would just be for it to indicate that it's searching. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Nov 9 15:51:18 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:51:18 -0500 Subject: Opinion of inclusion of PackageKit-command-not-found on the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1257781114.2275.6.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1257711810.3828.35.camel@adam.local.net> <1257714206.3828.36.camel@adam.local.net> <1257774519.3826.2.camel@planemask> <1257781114.2275.6.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1257781878.3826.19.camel@planemask> On Mon, 2009-11-09 at 07:38 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > I think the biggest problem for the live CD is that it gives you no idea > when it's 'processing' (checking yum info), so if you boot live, and > type a command that doesn't exist...you get to sit at a console that > just says 'Command not found.' for about 3 minutes while it goes out and > gets yum metadata. It's easy to assume it's just broken. A big help for > updaters and future releases would just be for it to indicate that it's > searching. After a quick conference with Richard, I just committed a change to the kickstart file to turn off command-not-found on the uninstalled live image. We already turn off all the rest of PackageKit and, as you noticed, command-not-found causes long waits because it has to download repodata that would normally be available locally on an installed system, but is missing on the live image. Matthias From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Nov 9 16:26:36 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:26:36 -0800 Subject: Opinion of inclusion of PackageKit-command-not-found on the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1257781878.3826.19.camel@planemask> References: <1257711810.3828.35.camel@adam.local.net> <1257714206.3828.36.camel@adam.local.net> <1257774519.3826.2.camel@planemask> <1257781114.2275.6.camel@adam.local.net> <1257781878.3826.19.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1257783996.2468.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-11-09 at 10:51 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > After a quick conference with Richard, I just committed a change to the > kickstart file to turn off command-not-found on the uninstalled live > image. We already turn off all the rest of PackageKit and, as you > noticed, command-not-found causes long waits because it has to download > repodata that would normally be available locally on an installed > system, but is missing on the live image. Might be too late for that change, since I've already made a number of the live images and they're being tested, but I'll see if QA will take a late shuffle on live images. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From johannbg at hi.is Tue Nov 10 07:27:15 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:27:15 +0000 Subject: Network Printing + Firewall.. Message-ID: <4AF915D3.3090002@hi.is> Greetings... Any reason why scanning the network for printers is blocked in firewall on the desktop live cd after install ( tested with 09/11/09 i686 iso) or is this something we missed? JBG -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: johannbg.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 356 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Nov 10 12:25:21 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:25:21 -0500 Subject: Network Printing + Firewall.. In-Reply-To: <4AF915D3.3090002@hi.is> References: <4AF915D3.3090002@hi.is> Message-ID: <1257855921.1885.2.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 07:27 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: > Greetings... > > Any reason why scanning the network for printers is blocked in firewall > on the desktop live cd after install ( tested with 09/11/09 i686 iso) > or is this something we missed? > The firewall is an unsolved issue. We considered just turning it off for F12 (as some have advocated), but didn't have the courage to do it in the end. It is one of the bigger problems we have to tackle soon. It not only torpedoes printing, it also sabotages file sharing, music sharing, and so on. From giallu at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 09:47:30 2009 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:47:30 +0100 Subject: Network Printing + Firewall.. In-Reply-To: <1257855921.1885.2.camel@planemask> References: <4AF915D3.3090002@hi.is> <1257855921.1885.2.camel@planemask> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 07:27 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: >> Greetings... >> >> Any reason why scanning the network for printers is blocked in firewall >> on the desktop live cd after install ( tested with 09/11/09 ?i686 iso) >> or is this something we missed? >> > > The firewall is an unsolved issue. We considered just turning it off for > F12 (as some have advocated), but didn't have the courage to do it in > the end. It is one of the bigger problems we have to tackle soon. It not > only torpedoes printing, it also sabotages file sharing, music sharing, > and so on. Would something like the SELinux troubleshooter (BTW, I just love the F12 one, kudos to the developers), catching denials generated by the firewall and presenting the user a dialog to allow pinching the appropriate ports, be a worth project to pursue? maybe something like this do exist somewhere? -- Gianluca Sforna http://morefedora.blogspot.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna From vaeood at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 10:17:07 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:17:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Firewall to printers Message-ID: <717677.16608.qm@web111611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi guys, When I installed the printer I had also problems with the firewall. Following the advise of HP I disabled the firewall, the OS accepted the printer and after that activated the firewall back again (and with some help from the Fedora team) the printer is O.K. The installation of this binary driver plugin is really a Grand Slalom, but this time I enjoyed it. If this would be of any help. Best regards, Christo Petkov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From odmirajkar at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 11:36:03 2009 From: odmirajkar at gmail.com (onkar mirajkar) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:06:03 +0530 Subject: on Hristo Petkov proposal Message-ID: <3492acc30911110336j4bcaf2a9l49f31847fd09bcbf@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I went to one step ahead. I have a usb modem which i can carry to anywhere. It has memory slot (micro SD)in it. I made it as live USB from USB creator. But unfortunately i am not able to boot. My plan was make it as live usb and then connect to data center by creating VPN.So that i can store my data permanently, Also make usb of cloud computing to give various software as service(SaaS). Thanks, Onkar 2009/11/7 Hristo Petkov > Hi Guys, > I have a proposal. In my view this DVD is too complex to be made universal > for various types of machines. Suppose the good old Live CD is furnished > with a reference to the Fedora Project website and there to be installed an > expert system advising the users depending on their machine, their periphery > and their application goals what to install what is better to install > instead of what and what is not entirely advisable to be installed. How to > make a full-featured high-speed desktop from ground zero (from the live CD > on formatted HD) in a couple of hours, etc. > Things like that. > Just a proposal. > Best regards > Christo Petkov > > > --- On *Fri, 11/6/09, fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com < > fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com>* wrote: > > > From: fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com < > fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com> > Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 5 > To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 12:40 PM > > Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to > fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > fedora-desktop-list-owner at redhat.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) > 2. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Bill Nottingham) > 3. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) > 4. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Adam Williamson) > 5. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Matthias Clasen) > 6. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (drago01) > 7. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) > 8. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Seth Vidal) > 9. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Lars Herrmann) > 10. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Bill Nottingham) > 11. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (drago01) > 12. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) > 13. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Seth Vidal) > 14. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Lars Herrmann) > 15. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Matthias Clasen) > 16. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Paul W. Frields) > 17. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Nicu Buculei) > 18. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (onkar mirajkar) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:20:13 -0500 > From: David Zeuthen > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: sundaram at fedoraproject.org, > Discussions about development for the > Fedora desktop > > > Message-ID: <1257445213.15710.18.camel at localhost.localdomain > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > The image size is 1022 M. > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > 1,000,000,000 - e.g.. the SI units. > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > It would probably be helpful to do a quick study of actual sizes of 1GB > USB sticks - we may end up wanting to do a 990 MB (990,000,000,000 > bytes) image or something so the image works on as many USB sticks as > possible. > > David > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:24:54 -0500 > From: Bill Nottingham > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: <20091105182453.GA16392 at nostromo.devel.redhat.com > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com ) > said: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > have for any overlay. > > Bill > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:35:26 -0500 > From: David Zeuthen > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: <1257446126.15710.30.camel at localhost.localdomain > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) > said: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > have for any overlay. > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > the overlay. > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. > > David > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:55:01 -0800 > From: Adam Williamson > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: <1257450902.2316.11.camel at adam.local.net > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:35 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) > said: > > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G > = > > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some > may > > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") > while > > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > > have for any overlay. > > > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > > the overlay. > > > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. > > Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it > creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in > a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is > starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about > including useless crap. > > And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but > bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with > absurd caps like 10GB/month? > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > image 2GB big'. > > -- > Adam Williamson > Fedora QA Community Monkey > IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org > http://www.happyassassin.net > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:56:42 -0500 > From: Matthias Clasen > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: <1257451002.1875.2.camel at planemask> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > image 2GB big'. > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:05:30 +0100 > From: drago01 > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Matthias Clasen > > wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> image 2GB big'. > >> > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > Finally we can move away from the 1990s (CDs), but yeah I agree > besides OO.org I can't think of an app that I really miss on the live > media. > > Just because we do have more space available does not mean that we > have to fill it with random crap. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:34:51 -0500 > From: David Zeuthen > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: <1257453291.17978.12.camel at localhost.localdomain > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it > > creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in > > a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is > > starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about > > including useless crap. > > Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. > > (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD > desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > > http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > > on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > > > And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but > > bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with > > absurd caps like 10GB/month? > > They do have mirrors in Australia. > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > image 2GB big'. > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > to say it should be. > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > CDs.. > > F13 will be released in 2010. > > David > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:37:43 -0500 (EST) > From: Seth Vidal > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it > >> creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in > >> a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is > >> starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about > >> including useless crap. > > > > Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. > > > > (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD > > desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) > > > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > > > > http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > > > > on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > > > >> And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but > >> bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with > >> absurd caps like 10GB/month? > > > > They do have mirrors in Australia. > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> image 2GB big'. > > > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > > to say it should be. > > > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > > CDs. > > > > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they > were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install > via the net talking to a local mirror. > > > not disputing any other points - but it's not like the super-small image > has ever been 6-cds. > > -sv > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:47:02 +0100 > From: Lars Herrmann > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: <1257454022.3222.8636.camel at x61.sulz > > > Content-Type: text/plain > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > > image 2GB big'. > > > > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? > > Just a thought > > Lars > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:50:01 -0500 > From: Bill Nottingham > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: <20091105205000.GA2428 at nostromo.devel.redhat.com > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Lars Herrmann (herrmann at redhat.com) > said: > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > language-group spins ? > > That explodes the testing matrix, though. (And makes something > that needs to support some superset of languages a mess.) > > Bill > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:50:17 +0100 > From: drago01 > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann > > wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> > >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> > image 2GB big'. > >> > > >> > >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > language-group spins ? > > > > Just a thought > > Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user > experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't > acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:52:28 -0500 > From: David Zeuthen > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: <1257454348.17978.16.camel at localhost.localdomain > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > > > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > > > CDs. > > > > > > > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if > they > > were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install > > via the net talking to a local mirror. > > Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a > minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were > properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). > > Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. > I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to > install.) > > Thanks, > David > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:56:22 -0500 (EST) > From: Seth Vidal > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > >>> Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > >>> we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > >>> CDs. > >>> > >> > >> Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if > they > >> were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install > >> via the net talking to a local mirror. > > > > Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a > > minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were > > properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). > > > > Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. > > I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to > > install.) > > yep. In f11 it's called netinst. > > Fedora-11-i386-netinst..iso > > for example. > > it's 177MB. Which is pretty light weight. It has stage2 on it iirc. > > -sv > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:58:45 +0100 > From: Lars Herrmann > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: <1257454725.3222.8695.camel at x61.sulz > > > Content-Type: text/plain > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 21:50 +0100 schrieb drago01: > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann > > wrote: > > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > >> > > >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > >> > functional live image and make our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > >> > image 2GB big'. > > >> > > > >> > > >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > > language-group spins ? > > > > > > Just a thought > > > > Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user > > experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't > > acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." > > > > The point is that it in fact *is* annoying that a significant chunk of > space goes to totally irrelevant packages. I am typically installing 3 > languages on my system and I am sure this represents a tiny fraction of > the user base. North of 90% will never ever use more than one language. > And they will know which one they need prior to downloading ;) > > Having a button in the distro to "add a language" is a useful feature > anyway - it's a bit of a pain today if you want to add a language later > and have to find out which packages to add. Same goes for removing. > > But I'm not aware of all implications of course ... > > Lars > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:20:30 -0500 > From: Matthias Clasen > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: <1257456030.2589.0.camel at planemask> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 21:47 +0100, Lars Herrmann wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > > > image 2GB big'. > > > > > > > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > language-group spins ? > > > > Just a thought > > > > I did that experiment back in August. Here is what I wrote back then: > > > Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso > > size up to 825M. > > > > Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up > > to 820M. > > > > This is without any openoffice lang packs. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:56:29 -0500 > From: "Paul W. Frields" > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > Message-ID: <20091105225629.GC2894 at victoria.internal.frields.org > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 01:35:26PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) > said: > > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G > = > > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some > may > > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") > while > > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > > have for any overlay. > > > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > > the overlay. > > > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. > > The price differences between 1GB and 2GB sticks seem minimal (and you > can find some 2GB cheaper than 1GB, of course). I lobbied purposely > with the Red Hat Summit organizers to make sure we gave out Fedora on > 2GB keys so that we could have a sizable key. > > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:10:14 +0200 > From: Nicu Buculei > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: <4AF3E7F6.9070106 at nicubunu.ro > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > > > > http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > > + 1 million > > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> image 2GB big'. > > > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > > to say it should be. > > How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what > is about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at > 1 GB (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of > the write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, > having the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the > possibility to throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. > > -- > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:10:16 +0530 > From: onkar mirajkar > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > > Message-ID: > <3492acc30911060440m48a62286qf58f18beec83b46d at mail.gmail.com > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi, > Few days back I created a Ubnutu live USB. But I recognize that its not > good > for my day to day use as it doesnot allow me to add my own packages like > VLC. > Is this a general problem with all Live USB as there are live dvd creator > which allows me to add my own packages. > I think its good idea to add this feature as USB is read wirte device not > read only like DVD so that user can install their own software and > customize > thier live USB. > Thanks, > Onkar > > > > 2009/11/6 Nicu Buculei > > > > > On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > >> > >> Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > >> space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > >> software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > >> like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > >> > >> http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > >> > > > > + 1 million > > > > > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >>> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >>> image 2GB big'. > >>> > >> > >> No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > >> 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > >> to say it should be. > >> > > > > How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what > is > > about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at 1 > GB > > (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of the > > write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, > having > > the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the possibility > to > > throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. > > > > -- > > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > -- > > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/attachments/20091106/b92d89d8/attachment.html > > ------------------------------ > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > End of Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 5 > ************************************************** > > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Nov 11 13:40:10 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:40:10 -0500 Subject: Network Printing + Firewall.. In-Reply-To: References: <4AF915D3.3090002@hi.is> <1257855921.1885.2.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1257946810.1914.15.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-11-11 at 10:47 +0100, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 07:27 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: > >> Greetings... > >> > >> Any reason why scanning the network for printers is blocked in firewall > >> on the desktop live cd after install ( tested with 09/11/09 i686 iso) > >> or is this something we missed? > >> > > > > The firewall is an unsolved issue. We considered just turning it off for > > F12 (as some have advocated), but didn't have the courage to do it in > > the end. It is one of the bigger problems we have to tackle soon. It not > > only torpedoes printing, it also sabotages file sharing, music sharing, > > and so on. > > Would something like the SELinux troubleshooter (BTW, I just love the > F12 one, kudos to the developers), catching denials generated by the > firewall and presenting the user a dialog to allow pinching the > appropriate ports, be a worth project to pursue? maybe something like > this do exist somewhere? That is what most developers immediately think of as the 'solution' to this issue. But it is not a solution, really. It is moving the problem to the user and asking him to make decisions he is not ready to make. What would you answer if a dialog spontaneously pops up that says Program /usr/bin/greqrml wants to listen on port 978. This may be dangerous. [Allow][Deny][No idea, you decide] A better approach would be to use information about the 'network environment' and make decisions based on that. E.g allow rhythmbox to share music on your home network, but not in the coffee shop. Of course, this need informations about the 'trust level' or privacy of the network. Matthias From twoerner at redhat.com Wed Nov 11 16:31:58 2009 From: twoerner at redhat.com (Thomas Woerner) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:31:58 +0100 Subject: Network Printing + Firewall.. In-Reply-To: <1257946810.1914.15.camel@planemask> References: <4AF915D3.3090002@hi.is> <1257855921.1885.2.camel@planemask> <1257946810.1914.15.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4AFAE6FE.4030205@redhat.com> On 11/11/2009 02:40 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2009-11-11 at 10:47 +0100, Gianluca Sforna wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 07:27 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: >>>> Greetings... >>>> >>>> Any reason why scanning the network for printers is blocked in firewall >>>> on the desktop live cd after install ( tested with 09/11/09 i686 iso) >>>> or is this something we missed? >>>> >>> >>> The firewall is an unsolved issue. We considered just turning it off for >>> F12 (as some have advocated), but didn't have the courage to do it in >>> the end. It is one of the bigger problems we have to tackle soon. It not >>> only torpedoes printing, it also sabotages file sharing, music sharing, >>> and so on. >> >> Would something like the SELinux troubleshooter (BTW, I just love the >> F12 one, kudos to the developers), catching denials generated by the >> firewall and presenting the user a dialog to allow pinching the >> appropriate ports, be a worth project to pursue? maybe something like >> this do exist somewhere? > > That is what most developers immediately think of as the 'solution' to > this issue. But it is not a solution, really. It is moving the problem > to the user and asking him to make decisions he is not ready to make. > > What would you answer if a dialog spontaneously pops up that says > > > Program /usr/bin/greqrml wants to listen on port 978. This may be > dangerous. > [Allow][Deny][No idea, you decide] > > > A better approach would be to use information about the 'network > environment' and make decisions based on that. E.g allow rhythmbox to > share music on your home network, but not in the coffee shop. Of course, > this need informations about the 'trust level' or privacy of the > network. > And there is a older bugzilla requesting to add the ability to classify network connections in NetworkManager: #472784 The original title was: Home mode/HotSpot mode in NetworkManager > > Matthias > Thomas From mandreiana.lists at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 21:36:55 2009 From: mandreiana.lists at gmail.com (Marius Andreiana) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:36:55 +0200 Subject: default fonts in Firefox for Fedora look very bad In-Reply-To: <1255556695.2251.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4bcf41a00910141400r5ce4e0b8hca7ecdb7ebe06631@mail.gmail.com> <1255556695.2251.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4bcf41a00911121336s59cb12a5o30f3b537d548c992@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:44 PM, Martin Sourada wrote: > It seems that gecko respects system wide settings (sans size; come to > think of it, why is the font size in firefox apparently measured in > pixels instead of the usual typographic units [pt]?) as I have nice > fonts in (almost) default rawhide installation with subpixel hinting > turned on (and size toned down a bit) and it looks in firefox just the > same as in the rest of the desktop (and to say, much better than the > screenshots from both windows and fedora you provided, at least on my > laptop). What could be done so it works this way out of the box, rather than having users change various settings to make them look better? -- Marius Andreiana From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Nov 13 15:24:40 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:24:40 -0500 Subject: upwards and onwards Message-ID: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> F12 is almost done ! I think we have produced one of our best releases yet. Thanks to everybody who has helped making it a great desktop. As always, there are many exciting new things: Abrt, Bluetooth networking and sound, Dracut, Empathy, IPv6, Thusnelda, etc. But we have also put a lot of effort into making this work well and look sharp. And it shows ! There are certainly still bugs to be found and fixed, and we will spend some time after the release mostly focused on handling incoming bugs, probably until around the time that GNOME 2.28.2 is released (right before Christmas). Even so, there are some changes to the Desktop spin that I want to make early in the F13 cycle, and that I want to outline here: - Drop the CD size limitation and target a larger usb stick. We have discussed this in the past. The main motivation for this is that we have to fight every release cycle to make things fit on a CD, and we don't have room to include our default office suite or example content. - Include OpenOffice instead of abiword. OpenOffice is the premier open source office suite, and abiword is on the current live CD purely for size reasons. - Use shotwell as the default photo management app instead of gthumb. This may be a bit of a surprise for some. Shotwell is a relatively new application, that is in Fedora only since F12. I have mentioned it on this list before. The 0.3.0 release that has just come out is very close to the feature set that we'd ideally expect to have in a default photo management app. It also starts very fast. - Remove remaining Bluecurve icons from fedora-gnome-theme. This will probably leave some holes in the menus, and we'll need help from artists to fill those. - Include example content. We've wanted to do this for a long time, but CD size limitations have always prohibited it. Now we can do it, but of course, we still need to collect good material. If you have proposals for suitably licensed documents, movies, music, etc that are interesting, cool or just funny, let us know ! It might also be a good idea to include some promotional material that could be of use for Fedora ambassadors. If you have proposals in this direction, let us know as well ! Beyond these organizational changes to the live image, I think a focus of our feature work for F13 will be around software installation and updates. Some of our thoughts for how installation and updates should ideally behave can be found on the wiki: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/InstallExperience For application installation, Martin Bacovsky has already started working on an online application database that is tied to pkgdb: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-October/msg01083.html Some of us will be at FUDCon in a few weeks, where we can hopefully discuss these ideas in more depth. Matthias From walters at verbum.org Fri Nov 13 16:06:13 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:06:13 +0000 Subject: upwards and onwards In-Reply-To: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> References: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > - Drop the CD size limitation and target a larger usb stick. We have > discussed this in the past. The main motivation for this is that we have > to fight every release cycle to make things fit on a CD, and we don't > have room to include our default office suite or example content. So...let me counter-propose this one with a multi-pronged solution: * Continue trimming the default install. Adam did some work on removing Perl (where were we on that)? The base comps group has grown all sorts of arbitrary stuff. * Include a PackageKit "Complete your installation" hook post-install which does "yum groupinstall @gnome-desktop" * Elevate the livecd inside Fedora to be more of a primary product; if someone uploads a package which takes significantly more space, we ask them to revert or fix And in addition to these, we generate a 2GB sized "full" install (hopefully @gnome-desktop fits in 2G...) which could also go on a 3+GB USB key or a DVD. This image is spun as the "Full" installer. > - Include OpenOffice instead of abiword. OpenOffice is the premier open > source office suite, and abiword is on the current live CD purely for > size reasons. So in the CD case, this would turn into "no openoffice or abiword" most likely. Practically speaking, it's always made very little sense to ship any app which saves important data to the local filesystem on a live CD. So the intent of this CD image is actually for installation (and recovery scenarios). > Beyond these organizational changes to the live image, I think a focus > of our feature work for F13 will be around software installation and > updates. Some of our thoughts for how installation and updates should > ideally behave can be found on the wiki: > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/InstallExperience Yeah. > For application installation, Martin Bacovsky has already started > working on an online application database that is tied to pkgdb: > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-October/msg01083.html We should be thinking about how this UI interacts with the Administration->Add/Remove. From davidz at redhat.com Fri Nov 13 16:49:43 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:49:43 -0500 Subject: upwards and onwards In-Reply-To: References: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1258130983.7574.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 16:06 +0000, Colin Walters wrote: > * Include a PackageKit "Complete your installation" hook post-install > which does "yum groupinstall @gnome-desktop" Should also pull and apply all updates at this point. David From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Nov 13 17:04:46 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:04:46 -0500 Subject: upwards and onwards In-Reply-To: References: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1258131886.1926.25.camel@planemask> On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 16:06 +0000, Colin Walters wrote: > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > > - Drop the CD size limitation and target a larger usb stick. We have > > discussed this in the past. The main motivation for this is that we have > > to fight every release cycle to make things fit on a CD, and we don't > > have room to include our default office suite or example content. > > So...let me counter-propose this one with a multi-pronged solution: > > * Continue trimming the default install. Adam did some work on > removing Perl (where were we on that)? The base comps group has grown > all sorts of arbitrary stuff. * Include a PackageKit "Complete your installation" hook post-install > which does "yum groupinstall @gnome-desktop" > * Elevate the livecd inside Fedora to be more of a primary product; if > someone uploads a package which takes significantly more space, we ask > them to revert or fix This is all fine and cool, but it is not going to help at all around the basic fact that an ever-growing percentage of the cd (is it 30% ?, maybe even more) is eaten by localization (translations, fonts, dictionaries). And we are still not going to be able to include example content, eg. a movie to try totem. > And in addition to these, we generate a 2GB sized "full" install > (hopefully @gnome-desktop fits in 2G...) which could also go on a 3+GB > USB key or a DVD. This image is spun as the "Full" installer. Noo, I don't want to see more alternatives. We already have the big problem right now that people choose to download the largely unmaintained DVD, just because it is bigger, and thus must be better... Also, how exactly do you think a 'full' install is going to differ from the regular live image ? Mostly, it is going to add redundancy and things that we didn't include for a reason, no ? I don't think we want to have a situation of Live CD - minimal install, missing important things Full DVD - all the crap I'd rather see us work on a single image and try to make that as good as we can, instead of working on two suboptimal images. From taljurf at fedoraproject.org Fri Nov 13 17:11:05 2009 From: taljurf at fedoraproject.org (Tareq Al Jurf) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:11:05 +0300 Subject: We can make fedora easier Message-ID: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> Hi all I think that we should change somethings in fedora that would make it easier. Things that whenever a new person starts fedora for the first time would change them. For example whenever i start fedora for the first time i change the behavior of the folders and make them open in browser can we make that default? Because i think most people do that. Regards -- Tareq Al Jurf Fedora Ambassador Riyadh, Saudi Arabia taljurf at fedoraproject.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walters at verbum.org Fri Nov 13 17:30:56 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:30:56 +0000 Subject: upwards and onwards In-Reply-To: <1258131886.1926.25.camel@planemask> References: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> <1258131886.1926.25.camel@planemask> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > This is all fine and cool, but it is not going to help at all around the > basic fact that an ever-growing percentage of the cd (is it 30% ?, maybe > even more) is eaten by localization (translations, fonts, dictionaries). Yes, we will have to tackle that at some point. I am hopeful that it will get some work done at the underlying OS (rpm etc) level because it seems pretty important for virt/appliance-OS scenarios, and those people make money. >> And in addition to these, we generate a 2GB sized "full" install >> (hopefully @gnome-desktop fits in 2G...) which could also go on a 3+GB >> USB key or a DVD. ?This image is spun as the "Full" installer. > > Noo, I don't want to see more alternatives. We already have the big > problem right now that people choose to download the largely > unmaintained DVD, just because it is bigger, and thus must be better... By "DVD" you mean Standaconda-on-DVD, right? My guess is the biggest reason is it's simply listed first, but yes; once we have a larger Live image, that obviates one of the reasons Standadonda DVD exists[1] > Also, how exactly do you think a 'full' install is going to differ from > the regular live image ? Mostly, it is going to add redundancy and > things that we didn't include for a reason, no ? No, a Full install is @gnome-desktop. > I don't think we want to have a situation of > Live CD - minimal install, missing important things > Full DVD - all the crap > > I'd rather see us work on a single image and try to make that as good as > we can, instead of working on two suboptimal images. I see it more like we should be sure that @gnome-desktop is good, and then work within the constraints of the CD size to provide the best that we can do. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Desktop/Whiteboards/UnifiedInstaller From abo at root.snowtree.se Fri Nov 13 19:15:37 2009 From: abo at root.snowtree.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:15:37 +0100 Subject: upwards and onwards In-Reply-To: References: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> <1258131886.1926.25.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1258139737.3737.23.camel@tempo.alexander.bostrom.net> fre 2009-11-13 klockan 17:30 +0000 skrev Colin Walters: > [1] https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Desktop/Whiteboards/UnifiedInstaller "Create a DVD-sized Live image that also includes all of its installed RPMs in standalone .rpm file form" A live image + drpm:s that - combined with the live image - give you the original rpms, should be a possibility. It would just be incredibly slow. /abo From josephine.tannhauser at googlemail.com Mon Nov 16 14:17:04 2009 From: josephine.tannhauser at googlemail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Josephine_Tannh=C3=A4user?=) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:17:04 +0100 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3668e9f50911160617q71783b76rd35d4a5b736563ea@mail.gmail.com> Do you mean nautilus? 2009/11/13, Tareq Al Jurf : > Hi all > I think that we should change somethings in fedora that would make it > easier. > Things that whenever a new person starts fedora for the first time would > change them. > For example whenever i start fedora for the first time i change the behavior > of the folders and make them open in browser > can we make that default? Because i think most people do that. > > Regards > > -- > Tareq Al Jurf > Fedora Ambassador > Riyadh, Saudi Arabia > taljurf at fedoraproject.org > -- Josephine "Fine" Tannh?user 2.6.18-164.2.1.el5 2.6.30.9-90.fc11.i586 From otaylor at redhat.com Mon Nov 16 15:40:41 2009 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:40:41 -0500 Subject: libatk-bridge.so crashes on XIOError Message-ID: <1258386041.2143.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> I just went through the ABRT filed backtraces for metacity and found at least 7 related to the GTK+ module libatk-bridge.so adding an atexit() handler that calls XCloseDisplay(). This tends to cause nasty chains of: X server dies XIOErrorHandler is called (installed by GTK+/metacity) Calls exit() Calls libatk-bridge.so's atexit() handler Calls XCloseDisplay() XIOErrorHandler is called And things get messed up with the reentrancy and the process segfaults or aborts. I think metacity may be particularly vulnerable to this crash, but at least two of the crashes I saw were *not* Metacity but filed against Metacity because of the problems that older versions of ABRT had with confusing processes. So, you may have some of these in your modules as well - if you see a backtrace that has frames in it like: #4 0x00007f95bd2bd41e in _XIOError (dpy=0x12a6960) at XlibInt.c:3138 [...] #8 0x00007f95bd297c60 in XCloseDisplay (dpy=0x12a6960) at ClDisplay.c:67 ext = i = 1 #9 0x00007f95b38beda8 in ?? () from /usr/lib64/gtk-2.0/modules/libatk-bridge.so Then you can dup it on: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=537843 - Owen From adrin.jalali at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 12:42:10 2009 From: adrin.jalali at gmail.com (Adrin Jalali) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:12:10 +0330 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <3668e9f50911160617q71783b76rd35d4a5b736563ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <3668e9f50911160617q71783b76rd35d4a5b736563ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8049a2b40911170442u127012d0k584885786f3f410d@mail.gmail.com> +1 :) yes, nautilus On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Josephine Tannh?user < josephine.tannhauser at googlemail.com> wrote: > Do you mean nautilus? > > 2009/11/13, Tareq Al Jurf : > > Hi all > > I think that we should change somethings in fedora that would make it > > easier. > > Things that whenever a new person starts fedora for the first time would > > change them. > > For example whenever i start fedora for the first time i change the > behavior > > of the folders and make them open in browser > > can we make that default? Because i think most people do that. > > > > Regards > > > > -- > > Tareq Al Jurf > > Fedora Ambassador > > Riyadh, Saudi Arabia > > taljurf at fedoraproject.org > > > > > -- > Josephine "Fine" Tannh?user > 2.6.18-164.2.1.el5 2.6.30.9-90.fc11.i586 > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penasio at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 13:06:44 2009 From: penasio at gmail.com (Claudio Penasio Junior) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:06:44 -0200 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I do the same, everytime. On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Tareq Al Jurf wrote: > Hi all > I think that we should change somethings in fedora that would make it > easier. > Things that whenever a new person starts fedora for the first time would > change them. > For example whenever i start fedora for the first time i change the > behavior > of the folders and make them open in browser > can we make that default? Because i think most people do that. > > Regards > > -- > Tareq Al Jurf > Fedora Ambassador > Riyadh, Saudi Arabia > taljurf at fedoraproject.org > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Claudio Penasio Jr. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 13:10:38 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:10:38 -0500 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Tareq Al Jurf wrote: > Hi all > I think that we should change somethings in fedora that would make it > easier. > Things that whenever a new person starts fedora for the first time would > change them. > For example whenever i start fedora for the first time i change the behavior > of the folders and make them open in browser > can we make that default? Because i think most people do that. Yes, I agree. Jon From josephine.tannhauser at googlemail.com Tue Nov 17 13:26:13 2009 From: josephine.tannhauser at googlemail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Josephine_Tannh=C3=A4user?=) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:26:13 +0100 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3668e9f50911170526p563132e0t494dd39bf826acf8@mail.gmail.com> mh, open a bug give the link here and you all should vote for a +1 in the bugreport! 2009/11/17, William Jon McCann : > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Tareq Al Jurf > wrote: >> Hi all >> I think that we should change somethings in fedora that would make it >> easier. >> Things that whenever a new person starts fedora for the first time would >> change them. >> For example whenever i start fedora for the first time i change the >> behavior >> of the folders and make them open in browser >> can we make that default? Because i think most people do that. > > Yes, I agree. > > Jon > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Josephine "Fine" Tannh?user 2.6.18-164.2.1.el5 2.6.30.9-90.fc11.i586 From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Nov 17 13:57:43 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:57:43 +0000 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <3668e9f50911170526p563132e0t494dd39bf826acf8@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <3668e9f50911170526p563132e0t494dd39bf826acf8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1258466263.2150.3461.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 14:26 +0100, Josephine Tannh?user wrote: > mh, open a bug give the link here and you all should vote for a +1 in > the bugreport! That's not how it works. Jon will be making the case for this change upstream with the reasoning behind the decision, and then that change will be made in our version of the packages. You don't get to vote on design decisions (or in the Fedora or GNOME bugzillas for that matter) From ajax at redhat.com Tue Nov 17 15:16:35 2009 From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:16:35 -0500 Subject: upwards and onwards In-Reply-To: References: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1258470996.7251.11256.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 16:06 +0000, Colin Walters wrote: > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > > - Drop the CD size limitation and target a larger usb stick. We have > > discussed this in the past. The main motivation for this is that we have > > to fight every release cycle to make things fit on a CD, and we don't > > have room to include our default office suite or example content. > > So...let me counter-propose this one with a multi-pronged solution: > > * Continue trimming the default install. Adam did some work on > removing Perl (where were we on that)? The base comps group has grown > all sorts of arbitrary stuff. I stopped investigating the perl thing too closely once we dropped below 670M, but my recollection was that we were within one or two packages of being rid of it. The F12 live ISOs are currently 654M for i386 and 656M for amd64, which is pretty impressive considering where we were during the rawhide cycle. There's only really one awkward perl dep chain left: anaconda's mk-images.x86 calls syslinux' isohybrid, which is a perl script. mk-images used to be in a separate scripts subpackage, but that got re-merged during F12 by Jeremy shortly before he left; I don't know why. The scripts that compose the anaconda runtime images and the anaconda runtime itself are logically separate, and I don't think there's any real objection to splitting them back off, so I'll look at getting that done for F13. I think we should do both things though. We should keep refining the packaging to fit as much good stuff in as little space as possible, but we should be targeting a larger image than 700M. > * Elevate the livecd inside Fedora to be more of a primary product; if > someone uploads a package which takes significantly more space, we ask > them to revert or fix What's the state of our tools for monitoring this? My guess is "dire". - ajax -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From notting at redhat.com Tue Nov 17 15:33:20 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:33:20 -0500 Subject: upwards and onwards In-Reply-To: <1258470996.7251.11256.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> <1258470996.7251.11256.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091117153319.GA15334@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Adam Jackson (ajax at redhat.com) said: > > * Elevate the livecd inside Fedora to be more of a primary product; if > > someone uploads a package which takes significantly more space, we ask > > them to revert or fix > > What's the state of our tools for monitoring this? My guess is "dire". There are no tools, AFAIK. There are daily composes, and one can then examine the images by hand. Bill From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Nov 17 15:38:01 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:38:01 -0800 Subject: upwards and onwards In-Reply-To: <1258470996.7251.11256.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <1258125880.1926.4.camel@planemask> <1258470996.7251.11256.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1258472281.2485.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 10:16 -0500, Adam Jackson wrote: > What's the state of our tools for monitoring this? My guess is > "dire". Not very dire at all. This falls in the AutoQA realm, in the post-build checking. One of the post-build checks we can do is size changes, comparing the size of the new build to the size of the old build. If the size grows significantly (probably a % amount) we throw up red flags. Taking it further, when AutoQA is rockin' and rollin' we could trigger post-build to see if a given package is in the Desktop set, and if so, use yum to get a size estimate of the entire desktop set to see if the desktop set is pushed over the size limit. We have lots of good stuff cooking and coming soon. I really think our talks about it at FUDCon will make this clear. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dcbw at redhat.com Tue Nov 17 20:18:43 2009 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:18:43 -0800 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1258489123.4447.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 11:06 -0200, Claudio Penasio Junior wrote: > I do the same, everytime. And I leave it the way it is (spatial)... it's just what you're used to and that's different for everyone. Dan > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Tareq Al Jurf > wrote: > Hi all > I think that we should change somethings in fedora that would > make it > easier. > Things that whenever a new person starts fedora for the first > time would > change them. > For example whenever i start fedora for the first time i > change the behavior > of the folders and make them open in browser > can we make that default? Because i think most people do that. > > Regards > > -- > Tareq Al Jurf > Fedora Ambassador > Riyadh, Saudi Arabia > taljurf at fedoraproject.org > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > > > -- > Claudio Penasio Jr. > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From tiagomatos at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 01:11:56 2009 From: tiagomatos at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Rui_Tiago_Ca=C3=A7=C3=A3o_Matos?=) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 01:11:56 +0000 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/11/17 William Jon McCann : > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Tareq Al Jurf > wrote: >> Hi all >> I think that we should change somethings in fedora that would make it >> easier. >> Things that whenever a new person starts fedora for the first time would >> change them. >> For example whenever i start fedora for the first time i change the behavior >> of the folders and make them open in browser >> can we make that default? Because i think most people do that. > > Yes, I agree. I prefer spatial, but there's one thing I miss from browser mode: the places sidebar. It's just very handy to be able to open and drag things into your devices/bookmarks. But changing completely to full browser mode without rethinking that interface is not a good move IMHO. Browser windows feel too clunky with all those buttons in *two* toolbars. There were some mockups on planet Gnome that looked nice and maybe it could be interesting to play with them, basically simplifying the interface. For instance, the places sidebar is (to me) clearly desirable to have there all the time in spatial mode. But the dropdown to choose the other sidebars could be eliminated. Maybe the tree sidebar could be the default for browser mode[1]? All the others are better provided either in a dynamically created right sidebar or elsewhere (notes and emblems are already in each item's preferences). And of course, all this should be judged with the way gnome-shell works and how it provides (or doesn't) easy access to the relevant places in the filesystem. Rui [1] And still, users which crave for the Windows Explorer tree view will feel disappointed I think... From me at jasonclinton.com Wed Nov 18 04:21:07 2009 From: me at jasonclinton.com (Jason D. Clinton) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:21:07 -0600 Subject: Fedora 12 Installer Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Originally sent this to mccann for private review but jrb and halfline asked that I send it here. I don't mean to offend anyone; mccann asked that I document my experience -- I'm coming from Debian Sid/Exp. so I don't have a horse the desktop race. --- I'm writing this from my phone while I wait for the install to finish. I will send another mail documenting first boot experience. The notes are with a newbie in-mind and only the notable hang-ups; the experience is, overall, good. Pre-install: no reason given for a media test and no time estimate before agreeing. Install: Storage probe > existing encrypted drive found: no offer to skip unlock. Use of OK/Cancel dialog buttons. Set hostname: no indication that using the same suffix like "localdomain" might be a good thing. Happily allows suffixless. Map/TZ widget: doesn't fill dialog size. Root password: no offer for sudo setup Partitioner: no indication that LVM and RAID buttons are for new only. "Hide LVM/RAID" doesn't work. Boot loader: no explanation of what a boot loader is. Use of sdx block names (some discoverability in Change Dev. dialog) Repos/software: no indication that offered additional repos. are remote or explanation why you would enable them. No progress on metadata fetch. Why would any Windows user not enable the Updates here? Is that safe/fast? Starting Install: long wait with no estimate. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From me at jasonclinton.com Wed Nov 18 04:22:57 2009 From: me at jasonclinton.com (Jason D. Clinton) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:22:57 -0600 Subject: Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The other half of the email I sent a moment ago: --- Again, just some observations; overall, the experience is wonderful. First boot: no problems; looks great. Maybe should offer to auto-login new user. GDM: for my encrypted harddrive use-case: I just entered my password to unlock the HDD, why do I have to enter it again to log in? Fonts: LCD panel wasn't detected for sub-pixel rendering; fonts are blurry by default. Overall font quality is poor in contrast to default install of competitors' distros. Nit-pick: bash-completion isn't installed by default. Printing: Preferences > Default Printer and Administration > Printing is confusing. Perhaps renaming Preferences to User Settings and Administration to Administrator Settings would clarify. Video codecs: no offer or mention of RPMfusion in contrast to competitors' distros. (fails the apple.com/trailers test) Flash: Not offered to install in contrast to competitors' distros. (Only tried 64-bit Ubuntu as comparison here.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 04:27:20 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:27:20 -0800 Subject: Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1258518440.2485.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 22:22 -0600, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > Video codecs: no offer or mention of RPMfusion in contrast to competitors' > distros. (fails the apple.com/trailers test) Just replying to this one for now. The Fedora project cannot actually mention RPMFusion outside of how https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OtherRepositories is worded due to the type of content carried at RPMFusion and it's legality within the United States of America. Since Red Hat is a US headquartered company, and RHT has legal responsibility over Fedora, Fedora needs to abide by US law. It is unfortunate, but contributory infringement is a nasty issue to deal with :/ -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From josephine.tannhauser at googlemail.com Wed Nov 18 05:52:32 2009 From: josephine.tannhauser at googlemail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Josephine_Tannh=C3=A4user?=) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:52:32 +0100 Subject: Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3668e9f50911172152jf62da54g7f9ee83f45a93dff@mail.gmail.com> 2009/11/18, Jason D. Clinton : > Flash: Not offered to install in contrast to competitors' distros. (Only > tried 64-bit Ubuntu as comparison here.) A rpm is downloadable at adobe's page, even a repo config rpm... Btw, don't compare it with ubuntu. you have to enable multiverse and universe for flash. These are not official repos and the usage is on own risk. The of borderline main and universe/multiverse is like Fedora/3rd Party Repo... My biggest Problem is that Nudoka, the theme that makes Fedora special, like human for Ubuntu, isn't default any more... It's a hard change and a marketing fail, because everytime you saw a blue nudoka window, you know "This is Fedora"! -- Josephine "Fine" Tannh?user 2.6.18-164.2.1.el5 2.6.30.9-90.fc11.i586 From drago01 at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 06:41:39 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:41:39 +0100 Subject: Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > Fonts: LCD panel wasn't detected for sub-pixel rendering; fonts are blurry > by default. Overall font quality is poor in contrast to default install of > competitors' distros. Now, that the nasty patents expired we should be able to get better looking fonts in F13. I should ping bedhad to do that. From josephine.tannhauser at googlemail.com Wed Nov 18 07:08:34 2009 From: josephine.tannhauser at googlemail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Josephine_Tannh=C3=A4user?=) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:08:34 +0100 Subject: Fedora 12 Installer Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3668e9f50911172308w5afae115h5e67cc785215b968@mail.gmail.com> 2009/11/18, Jason D. Clinton : > Root password: no offer for sudo setup Imho a bigger problem is that you can select in firstboot a 4 character password for your first user and in System->Administration->Users/Groups you have to select a password with 6 characters minimum.... -- Josephine "Fine" Tannh?user 2.6.18-164.2.1.el5 2.6.30.9-90.fc11.i586 From taljurf at fedoraproject.org Wed Nov 18 07:58:42 2009 From: taljurf at fedoraproject.org (Tareq Al Jurf) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:58:42 +0300 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> 2009/11/18 Rui Tiago Ca??o Matos > 2009/11/17 William Jon McCann : > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Tareq Al Jurf > > wrote: > >> Hi all > >> I think that we should change somethings in fedora that would make it > >> easier. > >> Things that whenever a new person starts fedora for the first time would > >> change them. > >> For example whenever i start fedora for the first time i change the > behavior > >> of the folders and make them open in browser > >> can we make that default? Because i think most people do that. > > > > Yes, I agree. > > I prefer spatial, but there's one thing I miss from browser mode: the > places sidebar. It's just very handy to be able to open and drag > things into your devices/bookmarks. > In spitial mode don't you feel that it's annoying to open each folder in a new window? If we could make that optional, I mean to be able to use spitial mode with a new option which enables you to open folders in the same window. And make the default mode is to open folders in the same window. > But changing completely to full browser mode without rethinking that > interface is not a good move IMHO. Browser windows feel too clunky > with all those buttons in *two* toolbars. There were some mockups on > planet Gnome that looked nice and maybe it could be interesting to > play with them, basically simplifying the interface. > For instance, the places sidebar is (to me) clearly desirable to have > there all the time in spatial mode. But the dropdown to choose the > other sidebars could be eliminated. Maybe the tree sidebar could be > the default for browser mode[1]? All the others are better provided > either in a dynamically created right sidebar or elsewhere (notes and > emblems are already in each item's preferences). It would be great if we can modify the spatial mode, can we (since im not a programmer) > And of course, all this should be judged with the way gnome-shell > works and how it provides (or doesn't) easy access to the relevant > places in the filesystem. > Of course, if someone has any idea about this please inform us > > Rui > > [1] And still, users which crave for the Windows Explorer tree view > will feel disappointed I think... > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Tareq Al Jurf Fedora Ambassador Riyadh, Saudi Arabia taljurf at fedoraproject.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 08:37:59 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:37:59 -0800 Subject: Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1258533479.9312.13.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 07:41 +0100, drago01 wrote: > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > > > Fonts: LCD panel wasn't detected for sub-pixel rendering; fonts are blurry > > by default. Overall font quality is poor in contrast to default install of > > competitors' distros. > > Now, that the nasty patents expired we should be able to get better > looking fonts in F13. > > I should ping bedhad to do that. 'Nicer' is subjective. I don't actually like the patented rendering, I prefer the non-patented. The above isn't actually referring to the patented stuff, anyway - just whether subpixel hinting is enabled by default. I think it's a sensible idea; surely LCD displays are sufficiently widely used by now that we could default to subpixel hinting in the GNOME font configuration, and that would be the best choice for the majority of users? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 08:40:00 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:40:00 -0800 Subject: Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience In-Reply-To: <1258518440.2485.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1258518440.2485.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1258533600.9312.15.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 20:27 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 22:22 -0600, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > > Video codecs: no offer or mention of RPMfusion in contrast to competitors' > > distros. (fails the apple.com/trailers test) > > Just replying to this one for now. The Fedora project cannot actually > mention RPMFusion outside of how > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OtherRepositories is worded due to the > type of content carried at RPMFusion and it's legality within the United > States of America. Since Red Hat is a US headquartered company, and RHT > has legal responsibility over Fedora, Fedora needs to abide by US law. > It is unfortunate, but contributory infringement is a nasty issue to > deal with :/ also, it would arguably be against the Fedora project's goals even if we legally-speaking _could_. Fedora is not about convenient access to proprietary software for short-term benefit. Fedora prefers to encourage the use of free / open source / unencumbered alternatives. I don't think it would fit with the Fedora project's goals to offer proprietary drivers, codecs or extensions such as Flash even if we had the legal okay to do it. free-yet-patent-encumbered codecs are a bit of a grey area, granted. I'm not sure how the Fedora philosophy covers those. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 08:40:37 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:40:37 -0800 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1258533637.9312.16.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 10:58 +0300, Tareq Al Jurf wrote: > In spitial mode don't you feel that it's annoying to open each folder > in a new window? > If we could make that optional, I mean to be able to use spitial mode > with a new option which enables you to open folders in the same > window. And make the default mode is to open folders in the same > window. That, um, wouldn't be spatial. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From tiagomatos at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 09:32:07 2009 From: tiagomatos at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Rui_Tiago_Ca=C3=A7=C3=A3o_Matos?=) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:32:07 +0000 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18/11/2009, Tareq Al Jurf wrote: > In spatial mode don't you feel that it's annoying to open each folder in a > new window? No. It works great for me. Knowing the keyboard shortcuts helps and after being used to it I don't want to go back. But I can see how people don't like it, especially after having used Windows. They are just used to a certain way of working which is totally fine and understandable. If the default just changes to browser I'll happily change the setting for me. Rui From taljurf at fedoraproject.org Wed Nov 18 11:08:50 2009 From: taljurf at fedoraproject.org (Tareq Al Jurf) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:08:50 +0300 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <12d8a2fa0911180308n72ae257fpfe2aec688742bced@mail.gmail.com> Yup since the majority of new Fedora users come from windows we want to make it easy for them Another issue we should discuss is the Keyboard Layout Key this is a problem for bilingual Fedora users (like me) Why don't we make the default ALT+SHIFT I think it's the most popular for my self, when i install Fedora i add the Arabic then change the key right away In my opinion The idea should be to make Fedora easier, more comfortable and ready to use for 90% of the users even if we should sometimes leave the upstream. 2009/11/18 Rui Tiago Ca??o Matos > On 18/11/2009, Tareq Al Jurf wrote: > > In spatial mode don't you feel that it's annoying to open each folder in > a > > new window? > > No. It works great for me. Knowing the keyboard shortcuts helps and > after being used to it I don't want to go back. > > But I can see how people don't like it, especially after having used > Windows. They are just used to a certain way of working which is > totally fine and understandable. If the default just changes to > browser I'll happily change the setting for me. > > Rui > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Tareq Al Jurf Fedora Ambassador Riyadh, Saudi Arabia taljurf at fedoraproject.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From xiphmont at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 11:32:28 2009 From: xiphmont at gmail.com (Monty Montgomery) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:32:28 -0500 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <12d8a2fa0911180308n72ae257fpfe2aec688742bced@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911180308n72ae257fpfe2aec688742bced@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <806dafc20911180332l52f2e75cy545d7480233a9bd9@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Tareq Al Jurf wrote: > Yup > since the majority of new Fedora users come from windows > we want to make it easy for them Nnnngh. So we should be just like Windows. Except that we never will be as windows as windows. And if they're switching from Windows... why do we want to be like Windows again? Blind cargo-culting is usually a bad idea, but if we're going to cargo cult, can't we steal from a better system (eg, Mac)? Monty (Let's see how many people figure out that was a troll. Oops! Damn.) From ajax at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 15:35:20 2009 From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:35:20 -0500 Subject: Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience In-Reply-To: <1258533479.9312.13.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1258533479.9312.13.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1258558520.7251.12926.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 00:37 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 07:41 +0100, drago01 wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > > > > > Fonts: LCD panel wasn't detected for sub-pixel rendering; fonts are blurry > > > by default. Overall font quality is poor in contrast to default install of > > > competitors' distros. > > > > Now, that the nasty patents expired we should be able to get better > > looking fonts in F13. > > > > I should ping bedhad to do that. > > 'Nicer' is subjective. I don't actually like the patented rendering, I > prefer the non-patented. The above isn't actually referring to the > patented stuff, anyway - just whether subpixel hinting is enabled by > default. I think it's a sensible idea; surely LCD displays are > sufficiently widely used by now that we could default to subpixel > hinting in the GNOME font configuration, and that would be the best > choice for the majority of users? This is probably worthwhile, though I'd like to get it right for the inevitable day when some other display technology displaces LCDs too. RANDR and KMS have this information though; we could just look at the subpixel properties of the connected outputs. - ajax -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 16:06:45 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:06:45 -0500 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <12d8a2fa0911180308n72ae257fpfe2aec688742bced@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911180308n72ae257fpfe2aec688742bced@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091118160645.GM3052@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 02:08:50PM +0300, Tareq Al Jurf wrote: > Yup > since the majority of new Fedora users come from windows > we want to make it easy for them 1. Do you have statistics supporting this? 2. Do we really want to be like Windows, if people are switching away from it for something better? > Another issue we should discuss is the Keyboard Layout Key > this is a problem for bilingual Fedora users (like me) > Why don't we make the default ALT+SHIFT > I think it's the most popular Again, you'd need something to back this up, but I expect you could discuss this with the Fedora I18n engineering folks who work on multilingual support tools, as opposed to this list. > for my self, when i install Fedora i add the Arabic then change the key > right away > > In my opinion > The idea should be to make Fedora easier, more comfortable and ready to > use for 90% of the users even if we should sometimes leave the upstream. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WhyUpstream There are sometimes reasons to diverge but we don't pursue it as our first option. The above page is important to understand if you're interested in work as a Fedora Ambassador. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From me at jasonclinton.com Wed Nov 18 16:26:26 2009 From: me at jasonclinton.com (Jason D. Clinton) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:26:26 -0600 Subject: Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience In-Reply-To: <1258533479.9312.13.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1258533479.9312.13.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 07:41 +0100, drago01 wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Jason D. Clinton > wrote: > > > > > Fonts: LCD panel wasn't detected for sub-pixel rendering; fonts are > blurry > > > by default. Overall font quality is poor in contrast to default install > of > > > competitors' distros. > > > > Now, that the nasty patents expired we should be able to get better > > looking fonts in F13. > > > > I should ping bedhad to do that. > > 'Nicer' is subjective. I don't actually like the patented rendering, I > prefer the non-patented. The above isn't actually referring to the > patented stuff, anyway - just whether subpixel hinting is enabled by > default. While I did mention the not-default sub-pixel, in fact, all the fonts look poorer in contrast to other distributions even when comparing sub-pixel to sub-pixel. And while font weighting can be quite subjective as you mention, the font hinting and kerning for the default desktop UI is just algorithmicly wrong. Look at "About this Computer" in the System menu. "b" has a giant loop while the adjacent "o" is 3/4's of b's width. There are, of course, examples all over the place of these hinting issues. In some cases, vertical lines fail to weight to an integer position resulting one side or the other having additional aliasing. Some fonts appear to be affected by this shortcoming more than others. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Nov 18 17:08:09 2009 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:08:09 -0800 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1258564089.2485.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 10:58 +0300, Tareq Al Jurf wrote: > In spitial mode don't you feel that it's annoying to open each folder in a > new window? No. > If we could make that optional, I mean to be able to use spitial mode with a > new option which enables you to open folders in the same window. And make > the default mode is to open folders in the same window. It is already optional. If you middle click or shift double click on a folder it'll open in the same window as opposed to opening new windows. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://jkeating.livejournal.com) Fedora Project (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) identi.ca (http://identi.ca/jkeating) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 17:23:55 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:23:55 -0800 Subject: Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience In-Reply-To: References: <1258533479.9312.13.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1258565035.9312.24.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 10:26 -0600, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > While I did mention the not-default sub-pixel, in fact, all the fonts > look poorer in contrast to other distributions even when comparing > sub-pixel to sub-pixel. And while font weighting can be quite > subjective as you mention, the font hinting and kerning for the > default desktop UI is just algorithmicly wrong. Look at "About this > Computer" in the System menu. "b" has a giant loop while the adjacent > "o" is 3/4's of b's width. There are, of course, examples all over the > place of these hinting issues. In some cases, vertical lines fail to > weight to an integer position resulting one side or the other having > additional aliasing. Some fonts appear to be affected by this > shortcoming more than others. I can't argue with that as I don't have a default-configuration reference handy, but I'm using stock Fedora freetype - not freeworld - and my fonts don't look like that: http://www.happyassassin.net/extras/fonts.png that's using subpixel smoothing, full hinting, 96dpi resolution (which is actually 'wrong' for my screen, but oh well) and RGB subpixel ordering (varies by monitor, of course). -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 17:26:59 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:26:59 -0800 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <1258564089.2485.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> <1258564089.2485.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1258565219.9312.27.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 09:08 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 10:58 +0300, Tareq Al Jurf wrote: > > In spitial mode don't you feel that it's annoying to open each folder in a > > new window? > > No. > > > If we could make that optional, I mean to be able to use spitial mode with a > > new option which enables you to open folders in the same window. And make > > the default mode is to open folders in the same window. > > It is already optional. If you middle click or shift double click on a > folder it'll open in the same window as opposed to opening new windows. it doesn't open in the same window, it opens in a new window and simultaneously closes the parent window. (the difference is significant; as per the rules of...spatiality...? the window for the newly opened folder will have the same properties you set last time you opened the same folder. so it won't necessarily bear any resemblance to the properties of the window for the _parent_ folder. If I double-middle-click on my Downloads folder from my home folder, I get a window that's three times as big and in a completely different place.) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From tiagomatos at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 18:04:01 2009 From: tiagomatos at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Rui_Tiago_Ca=C3=A7=C3=A3o_Matos?=) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:04:01 +0000 Subject: Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience In-Reply-To: <1258565035.9312.24.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1258533479.9312.13.camel@adam.local.net> <1258565035.9312.24.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: On 18/11/2009, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 10:26 -0600, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > > >> While I did mention the not-default sub-pixel, in fact, all the fonts >> look poorer in contrast to other distributions even when comparing >> sub-pixel to sub-pixel. And while font weighting can be quite >> subjective as you mention, the font hinting and kerning for the >> default desktop UI is just algorithmicly wrong. Look at "About this >> Computer" in the System menu. "b" has a giant loop while the adjacent >> "o" is 3/4's of b's width. There are, of course, examples all over the >> place of these hinting issues. In some cases, vertical lines fail to >> weight to an integer position resulting one side or the other having >> additional aliasing. Some fonts appear to be affected by this >> shortcoming more than others. > > I can't argue with that as I don't have a default-configuration > reference handy, but I'm using stock Fedora freetype - not freeworld - > and my fonts don't look like that: > > http://www.happyassassin.net/extras/fonts.png > > that's using subpixel smoothing, full hinting, 96dpi resolution (which > is actually 'wrong' for my screen, but oh well) and RGB subpixel > ordering (varies by monitor, of course). But the default for F12 isn't that. It's grayscale smoothing, slight hinting, 96 dpi, RGB order. In the past the default was medium hinting. The new default looks a lot like Mac OS X. Whether people "like" it is a matter of the fonts in use and taste/visual acuity. Rui From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 18:53:02 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:53:02 -0800 Subject: Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience In-Reply-To: References: <1258533479.9312.13.camel@adam.local.net> <1258565035.9312.24.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1258570382.9312.31.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 18:04 +0000, Rui Tiago Ca??o Matos wrote: > The new default looks a lot like Mac OS X. Whether people "like" it is > a matter of the fonts in use and taste/visual acuity. which is what I said in the first place. however, if the defaults lead to objectively incorrect rendering as described by Jason on common hardware, we should at least reconsider revising them again. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 19:08:31 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:08:31 -0800 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <1258565219.9312.27.camel@adam.local.net> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> <1258564089.2485.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258565219.9312.27.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1258571311.2485.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 09:26 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > it doesn't open in the same window, it opens in a new window and > simultaneously closes the parent window. (the difference is significant; > as per the rules of...spatiality...? the window for the newly opened > folder will have the same properties you set last time you opened the > same folder. so it won't necessarily bear any resemblance to the > properties of the window for the _parent_ folder. If I > double-middle-click on my Downloads folder from my home folder, I get a > window that's three times as big and in a completely different place.) Well sure, but I like that too, as there are certain tasks I do with certain folders and I like those properties to be remembered and re-used. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 19:41:45 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:41:45 -0800 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <1258571311.2485.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> <1258564089.2485.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258565219.9312.27.camel@adam.local.net> <1258571311.2485.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1258573305.9312.32.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 11:08 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 09:26 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > it doesn't open in the same window, it opens in a new window and > > simultaneously closes the parent window. (the difference is significant; > > as per the rules of...spatiality...? the window for the newly opened > > folder will have the same properties you set last time you opened the > > same folder. so it won't necessarily bear any resemblance to the > > properties of the window for the _parent_ folder. If I > > double-middle-click on my Downloads folder from my home folder, I get a > > window that's three times as big and in a completely different place.) > Well sure, but I like that too, as there are certain tasks I do with > certain folders and I like those properties to be remembered and > re-used. sure, I like it too, but it definitely isn't the behaviour the original poster asked for :) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 19:46:36 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:46:36 -0800 Subject: PolicyKit configuration questions Message-ID: <1258573596.9312.37.camel@adam.local.net> Hi, guys. I was just talking to some Mandriva users about PolicyKit, and it's prompted some questions for me. Prior to F12, there was a GUI policy editor for PolicyKit, which let you change the default policies for any PolicyKit-handled operation, any way you wanted to. This grants an awful lot of flexibility in terms of controlling exactly how privileges are granted for PK-managed operations, which as I understand it is part of the point of PK. In F12, the GUI policy editor was killed, with this rather cryptic note in the feature page: "The policy editor under System ? Preferences ? Authorizations is going to go away. It is a really problematic interface, and not really needed for normal users. Instead we want to add a simple group-based UI to a future user account dialog, that will let you declare that a user is an 'Administrator' or a 'Guest'. PolicyKit 1.0 includes all the infrastructure for this." Now, I can see why it is in some ways a bad UI. For a regular user, the fact that privilege escalation for some processes is handled by PolicyKit is an implementation detail they shouldn't have to care about. In as far as they may need to adjust PK policies at all, it should just be part of the regular desktop interface - the workflow should be 'configuring disk access preferences', or something, not 'configuring PolicyKit'. However, what we have now is a big hole where functionality used to be, and the short feature page note doesn't really cover it. Just being able to define users as administrators or guests is nowhere close to the full flexibility made available by PolicyKit. So I was just wondering, for my own edification: what's the plans for integrating appropriate levels of policy configuration into GNOME configuration paths in the future? And also, is there a coherent plan for exposing the full power of PolicyKit configuration to those for whom it would be useful, like administrators of true multi-user systems? As far as I can see there's no easily available public reference for the Grand Plan for the future here, so far as configuring PK is concerned. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 21:30:27 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:30:27 -0800 Subject: PolicyKit configuration questions In-Reply-To: <1258573596.9312.37.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1258573596.9312.37.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1258579828.9312.38.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 11:46 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > Hi, guys. I was just talking to some Mandriva users about PolicyKit, and > it's prompted some questions for me. never mind - I've been pointed to the discussion that happened just before I subscribed to this list, which mostly answers the questions. I can still see there being a place for a 'PolicyKit configuration GUI' for administrators, but that could just as well be written by a third party... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From taljurf at fedoraproject.org Thu Nov 19 06:45:22 2009 From: taljurf at fedoraproject.org (Tareq Al Jurf) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:45:22 +0300 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <20091118160645.GM3052@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911180308n72ae257fpfe2aec688742bced@mail.gmail.com> <20091118160645.GM3052@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <12d8a2fa0911182245r73c549dbo410ec0d5ea4cb56f@mail.gmail.com> Forget the keyboard thing, ur right But about Nautilus Read this for example http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=208330 and about the page "whyupstream" i've read it before Regards 2009/11/18 Paul W. Frields > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 02:08:50PM +0300, Tareq Al Jurf wrote: > > Yup > > since the majority of new Fedora users come from windows > > we want to make it easy for them > > 1. Do you have statistics supporting this? > > 2. Do we really want to be like Windows, if people are switching away > from it for something better? > > > Another issue we should discuss is the Keyboard Layout Key > > this is a problem for bilingual Fedora users (like me) > > Why don't we make the default ALT+SHIFT > > I think it's the most popular > > Again, you'd need something to back this up, but I expect you could > discuss this with the Fedora I18n engineering folks who work on > multilingual support tools, as opposed to this list. > > > for my self, when i install Fedora i add the Arabic then change the > key > > right away > > > > In my opinion > > The idea should be to make Fedora easier, more comfortable and ready > to > > use for 90% of the users even if we should sometimes leave the > upstream. > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WhyUpstream > > There are sometimes reasons to diverge but we don't pursue it as our > first option. The above page is important to understand if you're > interested in work as a Fedora Ambassador. > > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Tareq Al Jurf Fedora Ambassador Riyadh, Saudi Arabia taljurf at fedoraproject.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 13:07:45 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:07:45 -0500 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <12d8a2fa0911182245r73c549dbo410ec0d5ea4cb56f@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911172358r1ae52426j95e9aa1a144038ca@mail.gmail.com> <12d8a2fa0911180308n72ae257fpfe2aec688742bced@mail.gmail.com> <20091118160645.GM3052@victoria.internal.frields.org> <12d8a2fa0911182245r73c549dbo410ec0d5ea4cb56f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091119130745.GD15264@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 09:45:22AM +0300, Tareq Al Jurf wrote: > But about Nautilus > Read this for example > [1]http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=208330 Random polls don't usually lead to good design decisions. Usability studies, on the other hand.... -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From luya at fedoraproject.org Thu Nov 19 20:54:43 2009 From: luya at fedoraproject.org (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:54:43 -0800 Subject: How to set policy for user on specific folder from drive. Message-ID: <4B05B093.3070603@fedoraproject.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 After reading that intensive topic [1], I read documentation about pklocalauthority. In my scenario, I would like allow user to only read specific folder from other partition from other hard-drive. Consider this example taken from pklocalauthority documentation [User Permissions] Identity=unix-user:staff Action=com.example.awesomeproduct.* ResultAny=no ResultInactive=no ResultActive=yes Action is a bit vague because I could not find page that list how to mount that drive and assign access to that particular folder. In this example: /media/foo/bar where "foo" is the drive and "bar" is the folder. Thank you in advance. - -- Luya Tshimbalanga Graphic& Web Designer E: luya at fedoraproject.org W: http://www.thefinalzone.net -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAksFsJAACgkQaS6HaNQHFTn3MQCfYh42o7nBY/h0GvSQoHb04wlS 1lsAnjXLpw4LXWCSf14ABsKq0iDHUYtM =9k3e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From awilliam at redhat.com Thu Nov 19 21:26:42 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:26:42 -0800 Subject: How to set policy for user on specific folder from drive. In-Reply-To: <4B05B093.3070603@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B05B093.3070603@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1258666002.9312.381.camel@adam.local.net> On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 12:54 -0800, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > After reading that intensive topic [1], I read documentation about > > pklocalauthority. In my scenario, I would like allow user to only read > specific folder from other partition from other hard-drive. That's not under policykit's remit, really. policykit can deal with policies regarding mounting drives, but not what you get to see on what drive. That would appear to be exactly what good old file/folder permissions and/or ACLs are for? Why can't you do that? (smarter folks do correct me if I'm obviously gibbering). -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From luya at fedoraproject.org Thu Nov 19 22:12:09 2009 From: luya at fedoraproject.org (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:12:09 -0800 Subject: How to set policy for user on specific folder from drive Message-ID: <4B05C2B9.1060509@fedoraproject.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > That's not under policykit's remit, really. policykit can deal with > policies regarding mounting drives, but not what you get to see on what > drive. That would appear to be exactly what good old file/folder > permissions and/or ACLs are for? Why can't you do that? Understood about file/folder permission but the mounting drive is a concern. For a better clarification , say there are multiple users (3) in this scenario: user1, user2, and user3. user1 has bar1, user2 has bar2 and user3 has none. I set rules for policykit to mount for all but user3 under /media/foo. I created a symlink for all but user3 from /media/foo/barX on desktop (Gnome environment for example). /media/foo icon is displayed on desktop; is it possible to hide it? Another question User1 logs in and switched to another session for user2. Then user2 switch to another session for user3 who cannot access to /media/foo as expected. Will /media/foo be mounted for both user1 and user2 and bar1 folder not accessible for user1? I just want to get familiar with this new policy having used to system->preferences->Authorization. - -- Luya Tshimbalanga Graphic & Web Designer E: luya at fedoraproject.org W: http://www.thefinalzone.net -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAksFwrUACgkQaS6HaNQHFTnyMwCghOy3NKYjUqV+WmRAbxSVHyW6 tdwAn2qNJkpPR6ZLUpwWJfKq/H2SJB2E =hJAQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Nov 23 04:33:58 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 23:33:58 -0500 Subject: We can make fedora easier In-Reply-To: <1258466263.2150.3461.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <12d8a2fa0911130911g7b4d0afdp8f49b6f0561378f8@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750911170510s24281e97w731e7379ecc648ee@mail.gmail.com> <3668e9f50911170526p563132e0t494dd39bf826acf8@mail.gmail.com> <1258466263.2150.3461.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1258950838.2582.3.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 13:57 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 14:26 +0100, Josephine Tannh?user wrote: > > mh, open a bug give the link here and you all should vote for a +1 in > > the bugreport! > > That's not how it works. > > Jon will be making the case for this change upstream with the reasoning > behind the decision, and then that change will be made in our version of > the packages. Jon and I have been discussing this point back and forth for a while. I think the change from spatial mode to browser mode will come naturally with the changed role that nautilus will play in a gnome-shell-based desktop, ie in GNOME 3. Changing the default before that might not be such a good idea. At least to me, spatial nautilus is a big part of what makes up the GNOME 2 desktop. Matthias From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Nov 23 19:15:11 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:15:11 -0500 Subject: example content Message-ID: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> Hey, one change we are planning to make to the desktop spin in F13 is to go from targeting a cd to targeting a 1g usb stick. That will give us enough breathing room to include not only OpenOffice, but also some example content on the spin. We've wanted to do that for a long time, but the cd size restriction have prohibited that. The example content is meant to serve several purposes: - Be informative and/or pleasant - Allow users to try the included apps - Showcase content that has been produced with open source apps - Make the desktop spin more useful, e.g. to ambassadors Examples that might fit some of these categories are: - Suitably licensed music or movie trailers (big buck bunny has been mentioned already) - Spreadsheets or documents that contain interesting facts about Fedora or open source - the 1-page release notes pdf that was debuted for F12 The purpose of this mail is to solicit proposals for content that might fit into these categories. Please send your proposals to fedora-desktop-list or just reply. Thanks! Matthias From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 23 19:37:18 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:37:18 -0500 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: <2d319b780911231121u779819c8i4b7f5446edc507f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> <2d319b780911231121u779819c8i4b7f5446edc507f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091123193717.GB31475@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) (bochecha at fedoraproject.org) said: > > The example content is meant to serve several purposes: > > > - Make the desktop spin more useful, e.g. to ambassadors > > > - the 1-page release notes pdf that was debuted for F12 > > To be truely useful for ambassadords, we'd need a localized version :) > > Which means we'll have to regenerate the ISO anyway with our own kickstart. The Live image already has support for multiple locales, and should support passing them on the commandline. Anyone up for making a graphical language menu in syslinux? Bill From poelstra at redhat.com Mon Nov 23 19:51:20 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:51:20 -0800 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4B0AE7B8.1050405@redhat.com> On 11/23/2009 11:15 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Hey, > > one change we are planning to make to the desktop spin in F13 is to go > from targeting a cd to targeting a 1g usb stick. That will give us > enough breathing room to include not only OpenOffice, but also some > example content on the spin. We've wanted to do that for a long time, > but the cd size restriction have prohibited that. > > The example content is meant to serve several purposes: > > - Be informative and/or pleasant > > - Allow users to try the included apps > > - Showcase content that has been produced with open source apps > > - Make the desktop spin more useful, e.g. to ambassadors > > > Examples that might fit some of these categories are: > > - Suitably licensed music or movie trailers (big buck bunny has been > mentioned already) > > - Spreadsheets or documents that contain interesting facts about Fedora > or open source > > - the 1-page release notes pdf that was debuted for F12 > > > The purpose of this mail is to solicit proposals for content that might > fit into these categories. Please send your proposals to > fedora-desktop-list or just reply. > > > Thanks! > > > Matthias > > Does this mean that there will no longer be a bootable Live CD? Assuming this is the case, wow will this affect the media we give away at shows? John From walters at verbum.org Mon Nov 23 19:53:14 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:53:14 +0000 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: <4B0AE7B8.1050405@redhat.com> References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> <4B0AE7B8.1050405@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:51 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > > Does this mean that there will no longer be a bootable Live CD? Assuming > this is the case, wow will this affect the media we give away at shows? Is show media typically CD or is it DVD? Can it be DVD for most cases, or would that be problematic? From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 23 19:50:58 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:20:58 +0530 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> <4B0AE7B8.1050405@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B0AE7A2.1080108@fedoraproject.org> On 11/24/2009 01:23 AM, Colin Walters wrote: > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:51 PM, John Poelstra wrote: >> >> Does this mean that there will no longer be a bootable Live CD? Assuming >> this is the case, wow will this affect the media we give away at shows? > > Is show media typically CD or is it DVD? Can it be DVD for most > cases, or would that be problematic? Historically it has been Live CD's mostly. Most cases, I think we can move to DVD's. Rahul From poelstra at redhat.com Mon Nov 23 19:58:24 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:58:24 -0800 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> <4B0AE7B8.1050405@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B0AE960.3040203@redhat.com> On 11/23/2009 11:53 AM, Colin Walters wrote: > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:51 PM, John Poelstra wrote: >> >> Does this mean that there will no longer be a bootable Live CD? Assuming >> this is the case, wow will this affect the media we give away at shows? > > Is show media typically CD or is it DVD? Can it be DVD for most > cases, or would that be problematic? > Show media has been both LiveCD and DVD. The LiveCD has always been a nice thing to encourage people to try because it can be tried without installing or overwriting their existing system. So to me this is a loss because I doubt we'll be giving out USB keys from a cost perspective. John From a.badger at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 20:09:47 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:09:47 -0800 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> <4B0AE7B8.1050405@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091123200947.GE3724@clingman.lan> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 07:53:14PM +0000, Colin Walters wrote: > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:51 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > > > > Does this mean that there will no longer be a bootable Live CD? Assuming > > this is the case, wow will this affect the media we give away at shows? > > Is show media typically CD or is it DVD? Can it be DVD for most > cases, or would that be problematic? > It's typically the liveCD. The ambassadors are the ones to ask if a liveDVD would be problematic. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 23 20:09:58 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:09:58 -0500 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: <4B0AE960.3040203@redhat.com> References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> <4B0AE7B8.1050405@redhat.com> <4B0AE960.3040203@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091123200958.GA32042@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> John Poelstra (poelstra at redhat.com) said: > Show media has been both LiveCD and DVD. > > The LiveCD has always been a nice thing to encourage people to try > because it can be tried without installing or overwriting their > existing system. So to me this is a loss because I doubt we'll be > giving out USB keys from a cost perspective. If you want to give out spinning coasters, the move from giving out CD-sized ones to DVD-sized ones should be fairly negligible. Bill From ghenriks at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 20:36:19 2009 From: ghenriks at gmail.com (Gerald Henriksen) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:36:19 -0500 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: <20091123200958.GA32042@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> <4B0AE7B8.1050405@redhat.com> <4B0AE960.3040203@redhat.com> <20091123200958.GA32042@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:09:58 -0500, you wrote: >John Poelstra (poelstra at redhat.com) said: >> Show media has been both LiveCD and DVD. >> >> The LiveCD has always been a nice thing to encourage people to try >> because it can be tried without installing or overwriting their >> existing system. So to me this is a loss because I doubt we'll be >> giving out USB keys from a cost perspective. > >If you want to give out spinning coasters, the move from giving >out CD-sized ones to DVD-sized ones should be fairly negligible. I think the question is will there also be a LiveDVD created (either from the existing install DVD or from the LiveUSB) that would be useful for handing out at shows or for people to otherwise try Fedora, or are the stuck with the choice of an install DVD or USB key? From awilliam at redhat.com Mon Nov 23 20:38:19 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:38:19 -0800 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: <20091123200958.GA32042@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> <4B0AE7B8.1050405@redhat.com> <4B0AE960.3040203@redhat.com> <20091123200958.GA32042@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1259008699.9312.540.camel@adam.local.net> On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 15:09 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > John Poelstra (poelstra at redhat.com) said: > > Show media has been both LiveCD and DVD. > > > > The LiveCD has always been a nice thing to encourage people to try > > because it can be tried without installing or overwriting their > > existing system. So to me this is a loss because I doubt we'll be > > giving out USB keys from a cost perspective. > > If you want to give out spinning coasters, the move from giving > out CD-sized ones to DVD-sized ones should be fairly negligible. is this as true in, say, India as it is in North America / Europe? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From ajax at redhat.com Mon Nov 23 20:44:33 2009 From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:44:33 -0500 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: <4B0AE960.3040203@redhat.com> References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> <4B0AE7B8.1050405@redhat.com> <4B0AE960.3040203@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1259009074.7251.21056.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 11:58 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: > On 11/23/2009 11:53 AM, Colin Walters wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:51 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > >> Does this mean that there will no longer be a bootable Live CD? Assuming > >> this is the case, wow will this affect the media we give away at shows? > > > > Is show media typically CD or is it DVD? Can it be DVD for most > > cases, or would that be problematic? > > Show media has been both LiveCD and DVD. > > The LiveCD has always been a nice thing to encourage people to try > because it can be tried without installing or overwriting their existing > system. So to me this is a loss because I doubt we'll be giving out USB > keys from a cost perspective. There's no intrinsic reason to break writing the live image to a DVD. You can already write the "live CD" image to a DVD. (And in fact this is typically a better user experience; DVD drives typically have far better seek times and read speed since the media is denser.) A single-layer MiniDVD is about 1.4G, which will hold the 1G live image target easily. The first google hit I found for Mini-DVD replication has it at about $2.25/each at a quantity of 300, where they do 700M CDs for $1.17/each at that quantity. Amusingly they'll do 4.7G DVDs for $1.75/each at that quantity, so it's clearly nothing to do with material cost. For the burn-your-own crowd, CDW sells 100-packs of blank 4.7G DVDs for about $40, and 100-packs of blank CDs for about $30. It's certainly more expensive, but I'm skeptical that it's prohibitively expensive. There _is_ a set of users we're excluding here, which is the set of users that can only boot from CD and not DVD or USB. I think, at this point in time, anyone with a machine in that sad category is already poorly served by the Live CD, for seek time reasons if nothing else. Besides, that's what the netinst ISO is for. - ajax -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 01:12:01 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:12:01 -0500 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: <1259008699.9312.540.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> <4B0AE7B8.1050405@redhat.com> <4B0AE960.3040203@redhat.com> <20091123200958.GA32042@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1259008699.9312.540.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <20091124011201.GC24839@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 12:38:19PM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 15:09 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > John Poelstra (poelstra at redhat.com) said: > > > Show media has been both LiveCD and DVD. > > > > > > The LiveCD has always been a nice thing to encourage people to try > > > because it can be tried without installing or overwriting their > > > existing system. So to me this is a loss because I doubt we'll be > > > giving out USB keys from a cost perspective. > > > > If you want to give out spinning coasters, the move from giving > > out CD-sized ones to DVD-sized ones should be fairly negligible. > > is this as true in, say, India as it is in North America / Europe? Spot and I had the opportunity to ask this of a number of people from China, India, Japan, and Singapore when we were Down Under a couple of weeks ago. They unanimously agreed that most of the hardware around was at least DVD-ROM/CD+-RW compatible. DVD writers are getting traction. They also agreed bandwidth tended to be more of a problem than hardware. So to clarify, if you're talking about having a DVD-sized Live image, you also need to look into the media production cost difference between mass-produced CDs and DVDs. The Ambassadors who handle media production should be able to give some estimates. Just to make sure John's issue was addressed -- this would still be Live media, try-before-you-buy ;-), just larger. AIUI a user shouldn't need to have 1.5 GB of RAM just to load the system even if it's, say, a 1.4 GB image. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Nov 24 05:34:41 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:34:41 -0500 Subject: cruft removal Message-ID: <1259040881.5707.3.camel@planemask> Here is a list of some cruft removal tasks that I think we should tackle for F13: - Get rid of old Bluecurve icons in fedora-icon-theme. This mainly affects the OpenOffice icons and the redhat-email and redhat-web icons which are used by htmlview. The easiest way forward here would be to simply change the Fedora metatheme to use Mist (or another icon theme) directly. - Get rid of leftover cruft in redhat-menus. We still ship a /usr/share/desktop-menu-patches directory full of desktop files of which only two seem to still be used (by htmlview). Is anything besides htmlview still using desktop-menu-patches ? - Get rid of htmlview. The script as been documented as deprecated since forever, and it really does not have any benefits over xdg-open or gvfs-open. It seems to get pulled in by gok (!) in my F12 installation. Matthias From vaeood at yahoo.com Tue Nov 24 10:59:29 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 02:59:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Making Fedora more user-friendly Message-ID: <81851.42398.qm@web111608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Matthias, I am not sure exactly what kind of a desktop I am using (under f11 - I have software from the five continents) and I noticed when working on the computer two inconveniences. 1. When copying some files. on the USB drive I cannot take away the USB card (for the copied files are usually damaged without issuing a bug report). I had to shut down the computer for everything to be O.K. 2. When copying a disk by the DVD Gnome Backer (it is much faster than the one going with F11, burning directly on the DVD/CD) and after closing the program by the GUI, the program is not closed (issuing a bug report) but everything with the disk processing is usually O.K. (I apologise if this issue has to be addressed to somebody else). Could you advise me something, pls. Regards, Christo Petkov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rstrode at redhat.com Tue Nov 24 14:23:17 2009 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:23:17 -0500 Subject: Making Fedora more user-friendly In-Reply-To: <81851.42398.qm@web111608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <81851.42398.qm@web111608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B0BEC55.7050106@redhat.com> On 11/24/2009 05:59 AM, Hristo Petkov wrote: > Hi Matthias, > > I am not sure exactly what kind of a desktop I am using (under f11 - I > have software from the five continents) and I noticed when working on > the computer two inconveniences. > > 1. When copying some files. on the USB drive I cannot take away the > USB card (for the copied files are usually damaged without issuing a > bug report). I had to shut down the computer for everything to be O.K. > You need to right click on the drive and choose the "Safely Remove Drive" option before pulling it out. > > 2. When copying a disk by the DVD Gnome Backer (it is much faster than > the one going with F11, burning directly on the DVD/CD) and after > closing the program by the GUI, the program is not closed (issuing a > bug report) but everything with the disk processing is usually O.K. (I > apologise if this issue has to be addressed to somebody else). > I actually don't know what DVD Gnome Backer is, but if it's crashing on exit your best option is to report it to bugzilla at http://bugzilla.redhat.com So the maintainer can investigate. --Ray > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Tue Nov 24 14:48:26 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:48:26 -0500 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1259074106.3555.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Matthias, On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 14:15 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Hey, > > one change we are planning to make to the desktop spin in F13 is to go > from targeting a cd to targeting a 1g usb stick. That will give us > enough breathing room to include not only OpenOffice, but also some > example content on the spin. We've wanted to do that for a long time, > but the cd size restriction have prohibited that. > > The example content is meant to serve several purposes: > > - Be informative and/or pleasant > > - Allow users to try the included apps So I'm wondering whether template-like content is something we should include, or do we strictly want examples of content? E.g., just to illustrate what I mean: we could maybe brainstorm a set of templates of things a user might like to create with their new Fedora desktop and build templates for each. Just a quick list of examples off the top of my head - note I don't have any particular apps in mind here either: Printables: * a to-do list * calendar * business letter * photo album / photos * mix CD label * business card On-Screen Documents: * slide decks * simple web page * photo album web page * web page banner * simple video * animated gif (popular for online forum avatars) Maybe for each provide a filled-out, polished example and provide a template alongside it. But maybe this kind of idea is going a bit too far towards providing templates rather than just raw content. Probably openoffice.org has some templates that could be used for this purpose - but it could be a nice value-add thing for Fedora to include some hand-picked high-quality ones included out-of-the-box. How about tutorials? E.g. we could hand pick the best-of-the-best of openly-licensed tutorials like these and PDF-ify them maybe with a standard Fedora template (kind of like we did for the 1 page release notes) and include them in the Documents directory: http://inkscapetutorials.wordpress.com/ http://esdev.net/top-10-inkscape-tutorials/ http://gimp-tutorials.net/ http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/ FLOSSmanuals has some great instructional content - the digital foundations ones are particularly good http://en.flossmanuals.net/ They were originally produced for graphic design courses using the Adobe Suite and have been converted to use free software graphics apps instead. At least a default bookmark to these in Firefox would be good. > - Showcase content that has been produced with open source apps Besides Big Buck Bunny, maybe Elephant's Dream to this end. What do you think about including 2S artworks? There's a lot of beautiful digital paintings on deviantart that were created with Gimp and/or Inkscape... artists on there are usually quite willing to license CC and deviantart does have a built-in system to license under CC. > > - Make the desktop spin more useful, e.g. to ambassadors > > > Examples that might fit some of these categories are: > > - Suitably licensed music or movie trailers (big buck bunny has been > mentioned already) How about Sita Sings the Blues? http://sitasingstheblues.com/ I did an 'I am Fedora' video (http://a28.video2.blip.tv/3020000043336/Mairin-IAmFedora740.ogg) but its not great. Maybe Colby (cc'ed) can think of some good Fedora videos he's produced that would be short-ish and easy to include. Maybe some audiobooks from librivox? Or just load their feed urls so they're easily downloaded post-install without taking up space on the disk? I filed this bug earlier but For music would it be worth putting together a playlist (maybe 5-10 songs) of really high-quality work from Jamendo? > - Spreadsheets or documents that contain interesting facts about Fedora > or open source It might be cool to do something with some of the data we've got from smolt on Fedora usage? > > - the 1-page release notes pdf that was debuted for F12 ~m From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Nov 24 23:57:45 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:57:45 -0800 Subject: Fedora 13 Schedule Message-ID: <4B0C72F9.1000400@redhat.com> Hello Desktop People, A few weeks ago there was discussion here about how the Fedora 12 schedule was sub-optimal. I offered to help make sure your concerns were addressed in the Fedora 13 schedule, but nobody responded. I'm checking in with you one last time. If there is no response by the end of this week, I will assume that the proposed schedules meet the needs of the desktop for the Fedora 13 release cycle. The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well. Thank you, John From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Nov 25 00:44:15 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:44:15 -0500 Subject: Fedora 13 Schedule In-Reply-To: <4B0C72F9.1000400@redhat.com> References: <4B0C72F9.1000400@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1259109855.2512.21.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: > Hello Desktop People, > > A few weeks ago there was discussion here about how the Fedora 12 > schedule was sub-optimal. I offered to help make sure your concerns > were addressed in the Fedora 13 schedule, but nobody responded. I'm > checking in with you one last time. If there is no response by the end > of this week, I will assume that the proposed schedules meet the needs > of the desktop for the Fedora 13 release cycle. > > The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go > to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed > schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites. > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule > http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html > > If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the > schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create > a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well. I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that the development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot. From mike at miketc.net Wed Nov 25 13:58:33 2009 From: mike at miketc.net (Mike Chambers) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:58:33 -0600 Subject: Fedora 13 Schedule In-Reply-To: <1259109855.2512.21.camel@planemask> References: <4B0C72F9.1000400@redhat.com> <1259109855.2512.21.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1259157513.6333.3.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 19:44 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: > > > > The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go > > to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed > > schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites. > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule > > http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html > > > > If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the > > schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create > > a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well. > > I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that the > development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot. I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months of development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated above, not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included in this cycle. -- Mike Chambers Madisonville, KY "Best lil town on Earth!" From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Nov 25 16:47:26 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:47:26 -0800 Subject: Fedora 13 Schedule In-Reply-To: <1259157513.6333.3.camel@localhost> References: <4B0C72F9.1000400@redhat.com> <1259109855.2512.21.camel@planemask> <1259157513.6333.3.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1259167646.11317.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-11-25 at 07:58 -0600, Mike Chambers wrote: > I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months of > development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the > cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated above, > not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included in > this cycle. > Keep in mind that we've been able to do F-13 builds since 8/28 of 2009, and while they weren't mirrored it was possible to consume these builds and develop software against them. Fedora currently aims to have a May1 / Oct 31 release set, and thus those are the target areas we use when setting up schedules for the associated releases. We then adjust for various factors, such as other distro release dates and upstream release dates, but for better or worse, we are currently a time based release with predictable release points. If people want this to change, it really needs to happen at a FESCo or Board level. Releng is just creating the schedules with the current constraints we have to work with. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From poelstra at redhat.com Wed Nov 25 21:09:47 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:09:47 -0800 Subject: Fedora 13 Schedule In-Reply-To: <1259157513.6333.3.camel@localhost> References: <4B0C72F9.1000400@redhat.com> <1259109855.2512.21.camel@planemask> <1259157513.6333.3.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4B0D9D1B.10303@redhat.com> On 11/25/2009 05:58 AM, Mike Chambers wrote: > On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 19:44 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: >>> >>> The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go >>> to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed >>> schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites. >>> >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule >>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html >>> >>> If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the >>> schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create >>> a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well. >> >> I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that the >> development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot. > > I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months of > development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the > cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated above, > not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included in > this cycle. > Fedora does not usually factor in holidays. I've attempted to include them in previous schedule drafts, but they were dismissed by others as not being relevant to Fedora since we don't have official work days, office hours, etc.. Granted if a serious freeze or release date occurred during a major holiday period I'm sure they would reconsider, but our release dates are such that they don't. As Jesse said in a separate post we have committed to bi-annual release dates around 31-OCT and 01-May each year. During the first draft of the Fedora 13 I raised this as a concern, noting that when the previous release slips it steals time from the next release. In the case of Fedora 12, an extra week was added to accommodate for a series of conferences happening at the same time as key release/freeze dates. Two more weeks were added with the slip of the Alpha and Beta. So you are correct, out of the gate Fedora 13 is shorted by 3 weeks giving us almost a 5 month release window. The flip side of this is Jesse's mention in another post about the branch for Fedora 13 being open before the end of Fedora 12 and the thus development being longer than five months. I'm not sure how this works out in reality for development--if they can really take advantage of the early opening of the next release or if 95% of their energy remains focused on the release at hand. John From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Nov 25 21:45:57 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:45:57 -0500 Subject: Fedora 13 Schedule In-Reply-To: <4B0D9D1B.10303@redhat.com> References: <4B0C72F9.1000400@redhat.com> <1259109855.2512.21.camel@planemask> <1259157513.6333.3.camel@localhost> <4B0D9D1B.10303@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1259185557.1907.181.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-11-25 at 13:09 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: > On 11/25/2009 05:58 AM, Mike Chambers wrote: > > On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 19:44 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > >> On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: > >>> > >>> The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go > >>> to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed > >>> schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites. > >>> > >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule > >>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html > >>> > >>> If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the > >>> schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create > >>> a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well. > >> > >> I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that the > >> development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot. > > > > I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months of > > development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the > > cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated above, > > not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included in > > this cycle. > > > > Fedora does not usually factor in holidays. I've attempted to include > them in previous schedule drafts, but they were dismissed by others as > not being relevant to Fedora since we don't have official work days, > office hours, etc.. Granted if a serious freeze or release date > occurred during a major holiday period I'm sure they would reconsider, > but our release dates are such that they don't. I've seen plenty of earlier discussion where rel-eng was carefully trying to triangulate the release date around thanksgiving or easter. It seems somewhat unfair to say that rel-eng get to take holidays, but developers are expected to work straight through... :-) > The flip side of this is Jesse's mention in another post about the > branch for Fedora 13 being open before the end of Fedora 12 and the thus > development being longer than five months. I'm not sure how this works > out in reality for development--if they can really take advantage of the > early opening of the next release or if 95% of their energy remains > focused on the release at hand. If we want to get away from the 'just a feature dump' and 'just a beta' monikers, we'll have to face the fact that it does not work out in practise, at some point. From poelstra at redhat.com Wed Nov 25 22:07:04 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:07:04 -0800 Subject: Fedora 13 Schedule In-Reply-To: <1259185557.1907.181.camel@planemask> References: <4B0C72F9.1000400@redhat.com> <1259109855.2512.21.camel@planemask> <1259157513.6333.3.camel@localhost> <4B0D9D1B.10303@redhat.com> <1259185557.1907.181.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4B0DAA88.1020209@redhat.com> On 11/25/2009 01:45 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2009-11-25 at 13:09 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: >> On 11/25/2009 05:58 AM, Mike Chambers wrote: >>> On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 19:44 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>>> On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go >>>>> to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed >>>>> schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites. >>>>> >>>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule >>>>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html >>>>> >>>>> If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the >>>>> schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create >>>>> a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well. >>>> >>>> I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that the >>>> development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot. >>> >>> I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months of >>> development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the >>> cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated above, >>> not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included in >>> this cycle. >>> >> >> Fedora does not usually factor in holidays. I've attempted to include >> them in previous schedule drafts, but they were dismissed by others as >> not being relevant to Fedora since we don't have official work days, >> office hours, etc.. Granted if a serious freeze or release date >> occurred during a major holiday period I'm sure they would reconsider, >> but our release dates are such that they don't. > > I've seen plenty of earlier discussion where rel-eng was carefully > trying to triangulate the release date around thanksgiving or easter. > It seems somewhat unfair to say that rel-eng get to take holidays, but > developers are expected to work straight through... :-) > That does sound inconsistent. Which releases did this happen for and where did the discussion take place? John From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Nov 26 05:18:00 2009 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:18:00 -0800 Subject: Fedora 13 Schedule In-Reply-To: <1259185557.1907.181.camel@planemask> References: <4B0C72F9.1000400@redhat.com> <1259109855.2512.21.camel@planemask> <1259157513.6333.3.camel@localhost> <4B0D9D1B.10303@redhat.com> <1259185557.1907.181.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <6FA5D693-B4FA-48D3-AB0C-E0524BF45939@j2solutions.net> On Nov 25, 2009, at 13:45, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2009-11-25 at 13:09 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: >> On 11/25/2009 05:58 AM, Mike Chambers wrote: >>> On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 19:44 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>>> On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will >>>>> soon go >>>>> to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build >>>>> proposed >>>>> schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, >>>>> and Websites. >>>>> >>>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule >>>>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html >>>>> >>>>> If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the >>>>> schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to >>>>> create >>>>> a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that >>>>> as well. >>>> >>>> I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that >>>> the >>>> development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot. >>> >>> I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months >>> of >>> development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the >>> cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated >>> above, >>> not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included >>> in >>> this cycle. >>> >> >> Fedora does not usually factor in holidays. I've attempted to >> include >> them in previous schedule drafts, but they were dismissed by others >> as >> not being relevant to Fedora since we don't have official work days, >> office hours, etc.. Granted if a serious freeze or release date >> occurred during a major holiday period I'm sure they would >> reconsider, >> but our release dates are such that they don't. > > I've seen plenty of earlier discussion where rel-eng was carefully > trying to triangulate the release date around thanksgiving or easter. > It seems somewhat unfair to say that rel-eng get to take holidays, but > developers are expected to work straight through... :-) That's not it at all. We try to avoid any deadline that would fall on or near a major holiday. That's more for the developers than releng. > > >> The flip side of this is Jesse's mention in another post about the >> branch for Fedora 13 being open before the end of Fedora 12 and the >> thus >> development being longer than five months. I'm not sure how this >> works >> out in reality for development--if they can really take advantage >> of the >> early opening of the next release or if 95% of their energy remains >> focused on the release at hand. > > If we want to get away from the 'just a feature dump' and 'just a > beta' > monikers, we'll have to face the fact that it does not work out in > practise, at some point. > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 16:28:44 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 11:28:44 -0500 Subject: getting gnome 2.29 into rawhide Message-ID: <1259598524.2487.97.camel@planemask> Hey gnome package owners, I normally take care of mass-pushing gnome devel snapshots into rawhide, but this time around, I want to refrain from doing that for now, since I am still on F-12 and focusing on bug-fixes there. So, if everybody can take care of their own packages this time around, that would be great. Alternatively, maybe someone wants to volunteer to do a mass-build for 2.29.3 ? Matthias From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 16:57:04 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 11:57:04 -0500 Subject: cruft removal In-Reply-To: <1259040881.5707.3.camel@planemask> References: <1259040881.5707.3.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1259600224.2487.99.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 00:34 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Here is a list of some cruft removal tasks that I think we should tackle > for F13: > > - Get rid of old Bluecurve icons in fedora-icon-theme. This mainly > affects the OpenOffice icons and the redhat-email and redhat-web icons > which are used by htmlview. The easiest way forward here would be to > simply change the Fedora metatheme to use Mist (or another icon theme) > directly. > > - Get rid of leftover cruft in redhat-menus. We still ship > a /usr/share/desktop-menu-patches directory full of desktop files of > which only two seem to still be used (by htmlview). Is anything besides > htmlview still using desktop-menu-patches ? > > - Get rid of htmlview. The script as been documented as deprecated since > forever, and it really does not have any benefits over xdg-open or > gvfs-open. It seems to get pulled in by gok (!) in my F12 installation. These points are done now. xdg-open obsoletes htmlview, and I just built redhat-menus without /usr/share-desktop-menu-patches and fedora-icon-theme without Bluecurve-era icons. Let me know if anything breaks. Matthias From davidz at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 17:06:28 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:06:28 -0500 Subject: example content In-Reply-To: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> References: <1259003711.2613.76.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1259600788.12325.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 14:15 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Hey, > > one change we are planning to make to the desktop spin in F13 is to go > from targeting a cd to targeting a 1g usb stick. Why 1GB? It seemed to me, when discussing this earlier on this list, that everyone agreed that 2GB made much more sense. Thanks, David From bnocera at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 17:45:08 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:45:08 +0000 Subject: getting gnome 2.29 into rawhide In-Reply-To: <1259598524.2487.97.camel@planemask> References: <1259598524.2487.97.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1259603108.3311.1380.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-11-30 at 11:28 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Hey gnome package owners, > > I normally take care of mass-pushing gnome devel snapshots into rawhide, > but this time around, I want to refrain from doing that for now, since I > am still on F-12 and focusing on bug-fixes there. > > So, if everybody can take care of their own packages this time around, > that would be great. Alternatively, maybe someone wants to volunteer to > do a mass-build for 2.29.3 ? I've updated GStreamer packages to the level of F12 in rawhide already. I'll try and go through the new packages tomorrow after I've made a couple of upstream releases. Cheers