From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 00:34:49 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:34:49 -0400 Subject: A new notification theme In-Reply-To: <20090930234912.GN17146@localhost.localdomain> References: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> <1254229221.2884.157.camel@localhost> <939dd5750909290813v371b8bd0h80905cd5cd5d080c@mail.gmail.com> <20090930234912.GN17146@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <939dd5750909301734t102550b5yb403f218c572d649@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 11:13:58AM -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: >> At the end of the day we need to stand up and take responsibility for >> the end result. ?To make sure things fit together coherently. ? That >> doesn't mean that these decisions occur in a vacuum or that we don't >> need a heck of a lot of help. ?Nothing is ever final. >> >> For now, Matthias and I have assumed the (often difficult) >> responsibility of trying to fit all our shit together in a way that >> doesn't totally suck. ?We *do* need your help to do that. ?But that >> doesn't mean that we're going to avoid making the often difficult >> choices - it is critical that we do. > > Where's the source? ?If I was interested in looking at the source, to > learn a little about what you're doing, I wouldn't know where to find > it. ?Google only brings me the same link in the RPM information: > > http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~mccann/notification-daemon-engine-slider > > The top-level index doesn't show it either. ?Help? Ask the freedesktop.org admins. Jon From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 1 00:42:12 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 06:12:12 +0530 Subject: A new notification theme In-Reply-To: <939dd5750909301734t102550b5yb403f218c572d649@mail.gmail.com> References: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> <1254229221.2884.157.camel@localhost> <939dd5750909290813v371b8bd0h80905cd5cd5d080c@mail.gmail.com> <20090930234912.GN17146@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750909301734t102550b5yb403f218c572d649@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC3FAE4.7020701@fedoraproject.org> On 10/01/2009 06:04 AM, William Jon McCann wrote: > Ask the freedesktop.org admins. http://ajaxxx.livejournal.com/62015.html Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 00:58:48 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:58:48 -0400 Subject: A new notification theme In-Reply-To: <4AC3FAE4.7020701@fedoraproject.org> References: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> <1254229221.2884.157.camel@localhost> <939dd5750909290813v371b8bd0h80905cd5cd5d080c@mail.gmail.com> <20090930234912.GN17146@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750909301734t102550b5yb403f218c572d649@mail.gmail.com> <4AC3FAE4.7020701@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20091001005848.GT17146@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 06:12:12AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 10/01/2009 06:04 AM, William Jon McCann wrote: > > > Ask the freedesktop.org admins. > > http://ajaxxx.livejournal.com/62015.html Ugh. Thanks for the info, Rahul. Jon, did this survive in a local clone of yours? -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 1 01:18:01 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A new notification theme In-Reply-To: <20091001005848.GT17146@localhost.localdomain> References: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> <1254229221.2884.157.camel@localhost> <939dd5750909290813v371b8bd0h80905cd5cd5d080c@mail.gmail.com> <20090930234912.GN17146@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750909301734t102550b5yb403f218c572d649@mail.gmail.com> <4AC3FAE4.7020701@fedoraproject.org> <20091001005848.GT17146@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 06:12:12AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> On 10/01/2009 06:04 AM, William Jon McCann wrote: >> >>> Ask the freedesktop.org admins. >> >> http://ajaxxx.livejournal.com/62015.html > > Ugh. Thanks for the info, Rahul. Jon, did this survive in a local > clone of yours? > and do you want to talk about moving things to fedora hosted space? We have lovely backups. -sv From zcerza at redhat.com Thu Oct 1 16:44:43 2009 From: zcerza at redhat.com (Zack Cerza) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 12:44:43 -0400 Subject: long running sessions, restarts, etc. In-Reply-To: <1254322031.2093.18490.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090929181250.GA17613@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20090929185129.GA18941@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20090929194621.GA20044@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1254256993.2303.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1254322031.2093.18490.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1254415483.2326.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 15:47 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Tue, 2009-09-29 at 22:46 +0200, drago01 wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > On Tue, 2009-09-29 at 21:48 +0200, drago01 wrote: > > >> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > >> > Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: > > >> >> > I don't expect to have to reboot just b/c of an issue in the sound server. > > >> >> > > >> >> Not reboot for this one but relogin. > > >> > > > >> > How so? PA could in theory restart itself at some point when all streams > > >> > are idle, could it not? > > >> > > >> The apps would have to reconnect to pa. > > >> > > > > > > Which they manage to do every time I have to killall -9 pulseaudio when > > > it gets wedged. Seems like we already have support for pulse going away > > > and coming back. > > > > well the volume-applet in F11 sure does not do that which is annoying > > as hell (fixed in F12 though). > > It's also fixed in F-11, seeing as it ships the same version as F-12... It certainly wasn't for me a couple weeks ago before I upgraded to F12. Zack From notting at redhat.com Thu Oct 1 17:10:42 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 13:10:42 -0400 Subject: A new notification theme In-Reply-To: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> References: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <20091001171041.GC22375@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) said: > Tomorrows rawhide will have a new notification theme for Gnome. > > The aim of this new theme is to integrate well with the theming in the > rest of the desktop (which wasn't really the case with nodoka bubbles > and a clearlooks desktop). So, looking at this now, it looks like it integrates well with the gnome-shell sort of desktop/palette, but not the current gnome defaults. Or is it intended to be a full contrast with the current colors? I'm also concerned about the timing of this... I take it this wasn't ready at feature freeze? > In other bubble news, the amount of notifications that get emitted by > NM, g-p-m and packagekit should be noticeably reduced, compared to F11. Hooray. Is someone planning to hit RB with a cluestick? (Or was this already done, and I have stale plugin settings...) Bill From vaeood at yahoo.com Thu Oct 1 17:10:45 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 10:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Bubbles Theme Message-ID: <591349.81573.qm@web111608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Guys, I don't know what is the idea of those yellow bubbles and I don't want to know. This is an operation system running on a computer. My naivistic notion is that if s.th. is cyber let it look like cyber at full power, not like 'a yellow submarine'. Why don't you try s.th. in Leo Villareal style, for example. See the movie: http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/nationalgallery/villareal/04_ResolutionHi.m4v Best Regards, Christo Petkov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Thu Oct 1 17:43:20 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 18:43:20 +0100 Subject: A new notification theme In-Reply-To: <20091001171041.GC22375@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> <20091001171041.GC22375@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1254419001.22191.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 13:10 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Matthias Clasen (mclasen at redhat.com) said: > > Tomorrows rawhide will have a new notification theme for Gnome. > > > > The aim of this new theme is to integrate well with the theming in the > > rest of the desktop (which wasn't really the case with nodoka bubbles > > and a clearlooks desktop). > > So, looking at this now, it looks like it integrates well with > the gnome-shell sort of desktop/palette, but not the current > gnome defaults. Or is it intended to be a full contrast with the > current colors? > > I'm also concerned about the timing of this... I take it this wasn't > ready at feature freeze? > > > In other bubble news, the amount of notifications that get emitted by > > NM, g-p-m and packagekit should be noticeably reduced, compared to F11. > > Hooray. Is someone planning to hit RB with a cluestick? (Or was this > already done, and I have stale plugin settings...) The defaults in RB are to show notifications when the main window is hidden. If you want different behaviour by default, please file a bug upstream. I don't intend on changing that default. Cheers From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Oct 1 18:08:06 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 14:08:06 -0400 Subject: A new notification theme In-Reply-To: <20091001171041.GC22375@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> <20091001171041.GC22375@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1254420486.1821.0.camel@planemask> On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 13:10 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > I'm also concerned about the timing of this... I take it this wasn't > ready at feature freeze? Not to throw stones, but I'll point out that we had the notification theme in before the F12 backgrounds... From martin.sourada at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 18:47:29 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:47:29 +0200 Subject: A new notification theme In-Reply-To: <1254420486.1821.0.camel@planemask> References: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> <20091001171041.GC22375@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1254420486.1821.0.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1254422849.2264.33.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz> On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 14:08 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 13:10 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > > I'm also concerned about the timing of this... I take it this wasn't > > ready at feature freeze? > > Not to throw stones, but I'll point out that we had the notification > theme in before the F12 backgrounds... > Not trying to avoid the stones, but the F12 backgrounds are in since Alpha and the discussion that lead to their inclusion was held since about F11 GA. The beta version is polished version of what was already included. We skipped some deadlines (wallpaper refreshes) in our schedule (which we'll reflect in F13 schedule), but we are mostly on track now, which means we are following a schedule [1] we put together with poelstra at the *beginning* of the F12 release cycle. Not to throw back the stones, but I failed to notice any prior notification of the notification-daemon engine/theme change. I (personally) don't see anything bad with changing (especially minor) defaults just before beta freeze, but it would be nice if the code was included before that and the intended change was announced and discussed much before that (ideally before feature freeze). Martin [1] http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-design-tasks.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 18:57:46 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:57:46 -0400 Subject: A new notification theme In-Reply-To: <1254420486.1821.0.camel@planemask> References: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> <20091001171041.GC22375@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1254420486.1821.0.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <20091001185746.GT17320@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 02:08:06PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 13:10 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > > I'm also concerned about the timing of this... I take it this wasn't > > ready at feature freeze? > > Not to throw stones, but I'll point out that we had the notification > theme in before the F12 backgrounds... If you don't want to throw stones, the answer is simple: Don't. https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community/?package=constantine-backgrounds#package_maintenance/tools/changelog https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community/?package=notification-daemon-engine-slider#package_maintenance/tools/changelog The changes in the background over the course of the F12 cycle were discussed on the design-team list repeatedly as they were made, and comments invited via blogs and the list. The latest iteration was *packaged* after freeze, but that was through an exception the Design team requested specifically from Rel-Eng. We could have a more rational discussion if someone could simply point to some reference or data and say, "We changed the theme for the default desktop away from what was already being produced because this data tells us that our design is more effective at notifying people." Similarly, we could have more *courteous* discussions in future situations like this if someone was to present that information in advance and say, "We understand you are working on something that doesn't seem to fit the data and ideas we have. Here's why we think that's the wrong way to go for the Desktop spin. Do you have information we don't have that says otherwise?" -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Oct 1 19:26:07 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 15:26:07 -0400 Subject: A new notification theme In-Reply-To: <20091001185746.GT17320@localhost.localdomain> References: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> <20091001171041.GC22375@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1254420486.1821.0.camel@planemask> <20091001185746.GT17320@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1254425168.1821.10.camel@planemask> On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 14:57 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 02:08:06PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 13:10 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm also concerned about the timing of this... I take it this wasn't > > > ready at feature freeze? > > > > Not to throw stones, but I'll point out that we had the notification > > theme in before the F12 backgrounds... > > If you don't want to throw stones, the answer is simple: Don't. > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community/?package=constantine-backgrounds#package_maintenance/tools/changelog > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community/?package=notification-daemon-engine-slider#package_maintenance/tools/changelog > > The changes in the background over the course of the F12 cycle were > discussed on the design-team list repeatedly as they were made, and > comments invited via blogs and the list. The latest iteration was > *packaged* after freeze, but that was through an exception the Design > team requested specifically from Rel-Eng. There were some candidate backgrounds in F12 alpha, but what I have seen floated as the final background is roughly as far away from the candidates that were voted on than slider is from Nodoka. Anyway, this is going nowhere, so lets drop it. From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Oct 1 19:59:15 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 15:59:15 -0400 Subject: final touches to the desktop spin Message-ID: <1254427155.16249.5.camel@planemask> I have been accused of 'solo action' recently, so I'll announce the change I want to make to the desktop spin here. If there are good reasons why the desktop spin should be a nfs or nis client, speak up; otherwise I'll commit this: diff --git a/fedora-livecd-desktop.ks b/fedora-livecd-desktop.ks index 52c1d0a..4dcf011 100644 --- a/fedora-livecd-desktop.ks +++ b/fedora-livecd-desktop.ks @@ -67,6 +67,10 @@ festvox-slt-arctic-hts -rsh -telnet -unix2dos +-nfs-utils +-ypbind +-yp-tools +-rpcbind # drop some system-config things -system-config-boot Matthias From walters at verbum.org Thu Oct 1 20:16:23 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 16:16:23 -0400 Subject: final touches to the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1254427155.16249.5.camel@planemask> References: <1254427155.16249.5.camel@planemask> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > I have been accused of 'solo action' recently, so I'll announce the > change I want to make to the desktop spin here. > > If there are good reasons why the desktop spin should be a nfs or nis > client, speak up; otherwise I'll commit this: > These changes should be made in the @gnome-desktop comps group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From notting at redhat.com Thu Oct 1 20:21:28 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 16:21:28 -0400 Subject: final touches to the desktop spin In-Reply-To: References: <1254427155.16249.5.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <20091001202128.GA3399@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: > > I have been accused of 'solo action' recently, so I'll announce the > > change I want to make to the desktop spin here. > > > > If there are good reasons why the desktop spin should be a nfs or nis > > client, speak up; otherwise I'll commit this: > > These changes should be made in the @gnome-desktop > comps group. Those packages aren't part of the desktop group; they're part of the base group. Bill From walters at verbum.org Thu Oct 1 20:27:47 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 16:27:47 -0400 Subject: final touches to the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <20091001202128.GA3399@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1254427155.16249.5.camel@planemask> <20091001202128.GA3399@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: > > > I have been accused of 'solo action' recently, so I'll announce the > > > change I want to make to the desktop spin here. > > > > > > If there are good reasons why the desktop spin should be a nfs or nis > > > client, speak up; otherwise I'll commit this: > > > > These changes should be made in the @gnome-desktop > > comps group. > > Those packages aren't part of the desktop group; they're part of the > base group. We should move all of the "traditional Unix" bits out that aren't actually hard required (talk, rsh, rsync, man-pages) into a separate group, or alternatively switch desktop to somehow depend on @base[required]. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From notting at redhat.com Thu Oct 1 20:29:56 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 16:29:56 -0400 Subject: final touches to the desktop spin In-Reply-To: References: <1254427155.16249.5.camel@planemask> <20091001202128.GA3399@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091001202954.GA3863@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: > > Those packages aren't part of the desktop group; they're part of the > > base group. > > We should move all of the "traditional Unix" bits out that aren't actually > hard required (talk, rsh, rsync, man-pages) into a separate group, or > alternatively switch desktop to somehow depend on @base[required]. Well, we could have a comps file that defines groups like... core base debugging legacy-unix nfs-file-server mysql network-file-system-client console-internet directory-client print-client x11 general-desktop ... etc. But that's a fairly large shift in design. Bill From walters at verbum.org Thu Oct 1 20:42:52 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 16:42:52 -0400 Subject: final touches to the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <20091001202954.GA3863@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1254427155.16249.5.camel@planemask> <20091001202128.GA3399@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20091001202954.GA3863@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Colin Walters (walters at verbum.org) said: > > > Those packages aren't part of the desktop group; they're part of the > > > base group. > > > > We should move all of the "traditional Unix" bits out that aren't > actually > > hard required (talk, rsh, rsync, man-pages) into a separate group, or > > alternatively switch desktop to somehow depend on @base[required]. > > Well, we could have a comps file that defines groups like... > > But that's a fairly large shift in design. There is a question how far to go, however, I think one could not argue that the base group's description "This group includes a minimal set of packages." is not really accurate. We could alternatively say that desktop doesn't include @base, and just rely on explicit dependencies. But that would need case by case evaluation; prelink and pm-utils are obvious things we want. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 1 20:52:08 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 02:22:08 +0530 Subject: final touches to the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <1254427155.16249.5.camel@planemask> References: <1254427155.16249.5.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4AC51678.4080404@fedoraproject.org> On 10/02/2009 01:29 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > I have been accused of 'solo action' recently, so I'll announce the > change I want to make to the desktop spin here. > > If there are good reasons why the desktop spin should be a nfs or nis > client, speak up; otherwise I'll commit this: Never really got a decision on https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2009-August/msg00126.html Also there was some discussions about turning off the firewall. Is that happening or not? Rahul From walters at verbum.org Thu Oct 1 21:01:34 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:01:34 -0400 Subject: final touches to the desktop spin In-Reply-To: <4AC51678.4080404@fedoraproject.org> References: <1254427155.16249.5.camel@planemask> <4AC51678.4080404@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2009-August/msg00126.html I think we should wait to do this right in F13, as it looks like wwoods did good work there. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 19:05:24 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 15:05:24 -0400 Subject: A new notification theme In-Reply-To: <1254425168.1821.10.camel@planemask> References: <1253839734.1690.51.camel@planemask> <20091001171041.GC22375@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1254420486.1821.0.camel@planemask> <20091001185746.GT17320@localhost.localdomain> <1254425168.1821.10.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <20091002190524.GG21310@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 03:26:07PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 14:57 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 02:08:06PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 13:10 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I'm also concerned about the timing of this... I take it this wasn't > > > > ready at feature freeze? > > > > > > Not to throw stones, but I'll point out that we had the notification > > > theme in before the F12 backgrounds... > > > > If you don't want to throw stones, the answer is simple: Don't. > > > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community/?package=constantine-backgrounds#package_maintenance/tools/changelog > > > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community/?package=notification-daemon-engine-slider#package_maintenance/tools/changelog > > > > The changes in the background over the course of the F12 cycle were > > discussed on the design-team list repeatedly as they were made, and > > comments invited via blogs and the list. The latest iteration was > > *packaged* after freeze, but that was through an exception the Design > > team requested specifically from Rel-Eng. > > There were some candidate backgrounds in F12 alpha, but what I have seen > floated as the final background is roughly as far away from the > candidates that were voted on than slider is from Nodoka. Anyway, this > is going nowhere, so lets drop it. Alpha, ca. 2009-07-28 to 2009-08-11 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Wallpaper-mosaico6.png (from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F12_Artwork#Candidates_for_default_wallpaper) Refresh, ca. 2009-08-20 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Constantine_Perspective_Mosaico.svg (from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F12_Artwork#First_Wallpaper_Refresh) Beta, ca. 2009-09-28?: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Mosaic_2048x1536.png (from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F12_Artwork/Beta#Wallpaper) I'm pointing out the sequence and timing of the development so that there's no confusion about how this work evolved. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From invite+kr4mmxmgggsa at facebookmail.com Sat Oct 3 05:14:46 2009 From: invite+kr4mmxmgggsa at facebookmail.com (AShwin Hambarde) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:14:46 -0700 Subject: Check out my photos on Facebook Message-ID: <6e7c9ccaedae034c470a57e5ab53ea43@10.16.160.210> Hi fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com, I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile. Thanks, AShwin To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=100000359831896&k=Z6E3Y5T53V4FWKBJPB63QTRVZPCBVYYNUWEUFGSOT2&r fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com was invited to join Facebook by AShwin Hambarde. If you do not wish to receive this type of email from Facebook in the future, please click on the link below to unsubscribe. http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=74ab23&u=100000359501946&mid=130daf3G5af325e7d07aG0G8 Facebook's offices are located at 1601 S. California Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poelstra at redhat.com Mon Oct 5 16:56:36 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:56:36 -0700 Subject: Fedora 12 Beta blocker? Message-ID: <4ACA2544.8040701@redhat.com> Hi, This bug was discussed at the QA meeting today. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=510249 Is there more information available on this bug and should it block the Fedora 12 Beta? It is currently blocking Final. Thanks, John From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Oct 5 17:05:51 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:05:51 -0400 Subject: Fedora 12 Beta blocker? In-Reply-To: <4ACA2544.8040701@redhat.com> References: <4ACA2544.8040701@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1254762351.1684.4.camel@planemask> On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 09:56 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Hi, > > This bug was discussed at the QA meeting today. > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=510249 > > Is there more information available on this bug and should it block the > Fedora 12 Beta? It is currently blocking Final. It happens infrequently. When it happens, restarting or resizing your panel or restarting your notification-area-applet will make it go away. That means a) it is hard to track down and b) it probably does not have to block the beta. On the plus side, we have come significantly closer to tracking it down today. From odmirajkar at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 16:17:07 2009 From: odmirajkar at gmail.com (onkar mirajkar) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 21:47:07 +0530 Subject: How to publish a document under GPL Message-ID: <3492acc30910090917l3f868232x38fb665cb51d1181@mail.gmail.com> Hi,I would like to publish a document under GNU GPL, can someone please tell me the procedure for the same. This document is related to my research in the field of piracy and how to over come it. Thanks Onkar Mirajkar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Oct 9 17:24:15 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:54:15 +0530 Subject: How to publish a document under GPL In-Reply-To: <3492acc30910090917l3f868232x38fb665cb51d1181@mail.gmail.com> References: <3492acc30910090917l3f868232x38fb665cb51d1181@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACF71BF.9080608@fedoraproject.org> On 10/09/2009 09:47 PM, onkar mirajkar wrote: > Hi, > I would like to publish a document under GNU GPL, can someone please > tell me the procedure for the same. > This document is related to my research in the field of piracy and how > to over come it. If it is a document, then it is better to choose a more appropriate license targeted towards content. The close equivalent for content is the Creative Commons Attribute Share Alike license http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ Nevertheless, if you must use GPL, the license itself has a section on how to apply it. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-howto.html Note also http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Piracy Rahul From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 01:50:00 2009 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (A. Mani) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 06:50:00 +0500 Subject: How to publish a document under GPL In-Reply-To: <4ACF71BF.9080608@fedoraproject.org> References: <3492acc30910090917l3f868232x38fb665cb51d1181@mail.gmail.com> <4ACF71BF.9080608@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <78323d480910091850w3ce4d7b9w6848eadea1320f9b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > If it is a document, then it is better to choose a more appropriate > license targeted towards content. The close equivalent for content is > the Creative Commons Attribute Share Alike license > > http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ You have plenty of options there > Nevertheless, if you must use GPL, the license itself has a section on > how to apply it. > > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-howto.html You cannot interpret GPL on documents easily, even if it involves source files (for creating the document). The latest GFDL may be suitable. As of now the CC licenses are better. Best A. Mani -- A. Mani ASL, CLC, AMS, CMS http://www.logicamani.co.cc From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 22:40:47 2009 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:40:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: No IRC support in Fedora 12?!? Message-ID: Hi, current rawhide and Empathy client show great promise as it adds audio and video conference options. But one thing that Fedora users are used to have, IRC chat, seams like it is not supported and not working in current version of Empathy. Are Fedora developers aware of that? Is there some fallback plan to include IRC support in default Fedora Desktop spin in some other way? After installing telepathy-idle I see no difference.Am I doing something wrong? Also why isn't telepathy-idle installed as a dependency or at leas by default with empathy? Cheers. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From stickster at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 04:29:24 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:29:24 -0600 Subject: No IRC support in Fedora 12?!? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091011042924.GB14977@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:40:47PM +0000, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, current rawhide and Empathy client show great promise as it adds audio > and video conference options. > > But one thing that Fedora users are used to have, IRC chat, seams like it > is not supported and not working in current version of Empathy. > > Are Fedora developers aware of that? Is there some fallback plan to > include IRC support in default Fedora Desktop spin in some other way? This is a fair point, since we do have live help channels on IRC and not some other sort of messaging standard right now. The telepathy-idle package is 166KB according to yum info. Does this present a problem? > After installing telepathy-idle I see no difference.Am I doing something > wrong? Also why isn't telepathy-idle installed as a dependency or at leas > by default with empathy? I don't understand this part of the post. I have installed telepathy-idle and IRC works on Empathy here on my Rawhide system. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 15:16:11 2009 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: No IRC support in Fedora 12?!? References: <20091011042924.GB14977@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:29:24 -0600, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I don't understand this part of the post. I have installed > telepathy-idle and IRC works on Empathy here on my Rawhide system. I added irc.freenode.net as IRC server but I get an error when trying to connect. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From drago01 at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 15:18:03 2009 From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:18:03 +0200 Subject: No IRC support in Fedora 12?!? In-Reply-To: References: <20091011042924.GB14977@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:29:24 -0600, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> I don't understand this part of the post. ?I have installed >> telepathy-idle and IRC works on Empathy here on my Rawhide system. > > I added irc.freenode.net as IRC server but I get an error when trying to > connect. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? Well telling us what the error is would make answering this question easier ;) From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Oct 11 15:14:41 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:44:41 +0530 Subject: No IRC support in Fedora 12?!? In-Reply-To: References: <20091011042924.GB14977@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <4AD1F661.8090102@fedoraproject.org> On 10/11/2009 08:46 PM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:29:24 -0600, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> I don't understand this part of the post. I have installed >> telepathy-idle and IRC works on Empathy here on my Rawhide system. > > I added irc.freenode.net as IRC server but I get an error when trying to > connect. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? What error is that? Do you require a proxy to connect online by any chance? Rahul From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 20:00:27 2009 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:00:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: No IRC support in Fedora 12?!? References: <20091011042924.GB14977@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:18:03 +0200, drago01 wrote: > Well telling us what the error is would make answering this question > easier In command line there is no error, just in GUI, it says that it can't connect. I'm not using any proxy, I have a regular ADSL line and I'm behind a NAT. I'll check out what is the exact error and provide a screenshot. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Sun Oct 11 20:09:37 2009 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:09:37 -0400 Subject: No IRC support in Fedora 12?!? In-Reply-To: <20091011042924.GB14977@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091011042924.GB14977@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1255291777.2392.7.camel@lincoln> On Sat, 2009-10-10 at 22:29 -0600, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:40:47PM +0000, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > Are Fedora developers aware of that? Is there some fallback plan to > > include IRC support in default Fedora Desktop spin in some other way? > > This is a fair point, since we do have live help channels on IRC and > not some other sort of messaging standard right now. The > telepathy-idle package is 166KB according to yum info. Does this > present a problem? No,the reason we didn't have a requires on tp-idle is that at the time (I think this was around the F10 timeframe, but I could be wrong) we didn't feel that it was ready to be installed by default. If folks feel we should add the requires, I've got no problem with that. Later, /B -- Brian Pepple identi.ca: http://identi.ca/bpepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Mon Oct 12 09:51:54 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:51:54 +0100 Subject: Oprhaning python-gdata Message-ID: <1255341114.3797.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Heya, Totem isn't using python-gdata anymore, so I'm orphaning it. Feel free to pick it up at: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/python-gdata I used this RSS feed to keep on top of new releases: http://code.google.com//feeds/p/gdata-python-client/downloads/basic Cheers From bnocera at redhat.com Mon Oct 12 09:51:54 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:51:54 +0100 Subject: Oprhaning python-gdata Message-ID: <1255341114.3797.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Heya, Totem isn't using python-gdata anymore, so I'm orphaning it. Feel free to pick it up at: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/python-gdata I used this RSS feed to keep on top of new releases: http://code.google.com//feeds/p/gdata-python-client/downloads/basic Cheers From bnocera at redhat.com Mon Oct 12 10:02:09 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:02:09 +0100 Subject: Oprhaning python-gdata In-Reply-To: <1255341114.3797.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1255341114.3797.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1255341729.3797.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 10:51 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > Heya, > > Totem isn't using python-gdata anymore, so I'm orphaning it. > Feel free to pick it up at: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/python-gdata > > I used this RSS feed to keep on top of new releases: > http://code.google.com//feeds/p/gdata-python-client/downloads/basic Wrong list and crappy network connection, sorry. From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Oct 12 16:30:20 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:30:20 -0400 Subject: No IRC support in Fedora 12?!? In-Reply-To: <1255291777.2392.7.camel@lincoln> References: <20091011042924.GB14977@victoria.internal.frields.org> <1255291777.2392.7.camel@lincoln> Message-ID: <1255365020.1724.1.camel@planemask> On Sun, 2009-10-11 at 16:09 -0400, Brian Pepple wrote: > On Sat, 2009-10-10 at 22:29 -0600, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:40:47PM +0000, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > > > Are Fedora developers aware of that? Is there some fallback plan to > > > include IRC support in default Fedora Desktop spin in some other way? > > > > This is a fair point, since we do have live help channels on IRC and > > not some other sort of messaging standard right now. The > > telepathy-idle package is 166KB according to yum info. Does this > > present a problem? > > No,the reason we didn't have a requires on tp-idle is that at the time > (I think this was around the F10 timeframe, but I could be wrong) we > didn't feel that it was ready to be installed by default. If folks feel > we should add the requires, I've got no problem with that. > I think we do have some nominal irc support via telepathy-haze, but it is probably better to pull in -idle. From stickster at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 17:56:04 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 13:56:04 -0400 Subject: No IRC support in Fedora 12?!? In-Reply-To: <1255291777.2392.7.camel@lincoln> References: <20091011042924.GB14977@victoria.internal.frields.org> <1255291777.2392.7.camel@lincoln> Message-ID: <20091012175604.GM10453@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 04:09:37PM -0400, Brian Pepple wrote: > On Sat, 2009-10-10 at 22:29 -0600, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:40:47PM +0000, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > > > Are Fedora developers aware of that? Is there some fallback plan to > > > include IRC support in default Fedora Desktop spin in some other way? > > > > This is a fair point, since we do have live help channels on IRC and > > not some other sort of messaging standard right now. The > > telepathy-idle package is 166KB according to yum info. Does this > > present a problem? > > No,the reason we didn't have a requires on tp-idle is that at the time > (I think this was around the F10 timeframe, but I could be wrong) we > didn't feel that it was ready to be installed by default. If folks feel > we should add the requires, I've got no problem with that. I think the point that our default desktop should include a working IRC client is a valid one, seeing as how IRC is one of our primary methods of community support. I've been able to use telepathy-idle successfully. I removed my existing GConf keys and ~/.config/Empathy folders to try to experience defaults for a new user. I was able to connect to FreeNode using the dropdown list, join a channel, and send and receive messages properly. Brian, you may want to check to see if old settings from F10/F11 Empathy may interfere with current Empathy, and if so, how to deal with them. I support making this part of the F12 requires if possible. A change will require appropriate rel-eng ticketing and so forth. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From zcerza at redhat.com Mon Oct 12 17:56:32 2009 From: zcerza at redhat.com (Zack Cerza) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 13:56:32 -0400 Subject: No IRC support in Fedora 12?!? In-Reply-To: References: <20091011042924.GB14977@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1255370192.2311.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2009-10-11 at 15:16 +0000, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:29:24 -0600, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > I don't understand this part of the post. I have installed > > telepathy-idle and IRC works on Empathy here on my Rawhide system. > > I added irc.freenode.net as IRC server but I get an error when trying to > connect. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? It's not this bug is it? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=528038 Zack From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Oct 13 16:12:25 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:12:25 +0100 Subject: XCF Pixbuf Loader In-Reply-To: <1250116593.2022.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <3170f42f0908121232m1bffd6f2rf7c266c0f6f5161@mail.gmail.com> <1250116593.2022.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1255450345.3797.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-08-12 at 23:36 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 01:02 +0530, Debarshi Ray wrote: > > http://blog.reblochon.org/2009/03/gift-to-competition.html > > > > Is it a good idea to package it? Or has it been intentionally been > > kept out due to other plans? > > Very good idea. And then I can file bugs that it doesn't read my 10-year > old XCFs from GNOME 1.x :) > Did you ever file a review request for this? I'd be interested in taking a look at it, and retiring my own xcf thumbnailer code[1]. [1]: http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gnome-xcf-thumbnailer/ From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Oct 13 17:34:02 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:34:02 +0100 Subject: XCF Pixbuf Loader In-Reply-To: <1255450345.3797.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <3170f42f0908121232m1bffd6f2rf7c266c0f6f5161@mail.gmail.com> <1250116593.2022.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1255450345.3797.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1255455242.3797.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-10-13 at 17:12 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Wed, 2009-08-12 at 23:36 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 01:02 +0530, Debarshi Ray wrote: > > > http://blog.reblochon.org/2009/03/gift-to-competition.html > > > > > > Is it a good idea to package it? Or has it been intentionally been > > > kept out due to other plans? > > > > Very good idea. And then I can file bugs that it doesn't read my 10-year > > old XCFs from GNOME 1.x :) > > > > Did you ever file a review request for this? > > I'd be interested in taking a look at it, and retiring my own xcf > thumbnailer code[1]. FYI: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=528782 From mandreiana.lists at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 21:00:50 2009 From: mandreiana.lists at gmail.com (Marius Andreiana) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 00:00:50 +0300 Subject: default fonts in Firefox for Fedora look very bad Message-ID: <4bcf41a00910141400r5ce4e0b8hca7ecdb7ebe06631@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Could anyone with graphic design experience offer more details on this bug? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523487 Google confirms it's not just my impression. Thanks, -- Marius Andreiana From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 21:44:55 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:44:55 +0200 Subject: default fonts in Firefox for Fedora look very bad In-Reply-To: <4bcf41a00910141400r5ce4e0b8hca7ecdb7ebe06631@mail.gmail.com> References: <4bcf41a00910141400r5ce4e0b8hca7ecdb7ebe06631@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1255556695.2251.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 00:00 +0300, Marius Andreiana wrote: > Hi, > > Could anyone with graphic design experience offer more details on this bug? > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523487 > > Google confirms it's not just my impression. Well, the only important difference there is that the font used by linux version is bigger and uses just grey scale antialiasing as opposed to the hinted subpixel antialiasing used by windows (not perfect either) -- you are comparing apples with oranges. It seems that gecko respects system wide settings (sans size; come to think of it, why is the font size in firefox apparently measured in pixels instead of the usual typographic units [pt]?) as I have nice fonts in (almost) default rawhide installation with subpixel hinting turned on (and size toned down a bit) and it looks in firefox just the same as in the rest of the desktop (and to say, much better than the screenshots from both windows and fedora you provided, at least on my laptop). Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Oct 17 03:54:07 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 09:24:07 +0530 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing Message-ID: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> Hi, This GUI tool seems to have been lost in the transition to PolicKit-1. Is there a plan on getting it back? It was quite convenient. If not, what is the recommended method? Rahul From mclasen at redhat.com Sat Oct 17 04:11:16 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 00:11:16 -0400 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 09:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > This GUI tool seems to have been lost in the transition to PolicKit-1. > Is there a plan on getting it back? It was quite convenient. If not, > what is the recommended method? We don't plan to bring a ui like that back. If you need to tweak policy, the local authority uses a simple file-based configuration, see pklocalauthority(8). Medium-term, we want to have a simple group-based configuration that will be accessible via some ui, see the polkit-desktop-policy package for the groundwork. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Oct 17 04:19:17 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 09:49:17 +0530 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> On 10/17/2009 09:41 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 09:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This GUI tool seems to have been lost in the transition to PolicKit-1. >> Is there a plan on getting it back? It was quite convenient. If not, >> what is the recommended method? > > We don't plan to bring a ui like that back. If you need to tweak policy, > the local authority uses a simple file-based configuration, see > pklocalauthority(8). Medium-term, we want to have a simple group-based > configuration that will be accessible via some ui, see the > polkit-desktop-policy package for the groundwork. To help me understand this better, can you give me a example? Let's say I want to tweak PackageKit's policy to not ask for root password even when untrusted packages are being installed, how do I go about doing that? Rahul From vaeood at yahoo.com Sat Oct 17 09:02:09 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 02:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Firefox Fonts in Fedora Message-ID: <992332.11399.qm@web111610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Guys, I don't see what is the problem. In my Firefox the fonts are the same as on the desktop. Well, they are not exactly beautiful, but the idea of the fonts on the web browser are not to be a masterpiece of art but to be easily readable, comprehensive and to save time when working with the browser. On my desktop they look fairly good. Regards, Christo Petkov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidz at redhat.com Sat Oct 17 20:34:23 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:34:23 -0400 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 09:49 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > To help me understand this better, can you give me a example? Let's say > I want to tweak PackageKit's policy to not ask for root password even > when untrusted packages are being installed, (this is not a good idea but let's ignore that for the time being) > how do I go about doing that? Did you look at the EXAMPLES section in the man page Matthias mentioned? If it's not clear how to do it after reading that man page, do ask here and ideally include a patch to the source for the man page. Thanks. David From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Sun Oct 18 01:14:11 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 03:14:11 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1255828451.2833.29.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Samstag, den 17.10.2009, 16:34 -0400 schrieb David Zeuthen: > On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 09:49 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > To help me understand this better, can you give me a example? Let's say > > I want to tweak PackageKit's policy to not ask for root password even > > when untrusted packages are being installed, > > (this is not a good idea but let's ignore that for the time being) > > > how do I go about doing that? > > Did you look at the EXAMPLES section in the man page Matthias mentioned? > If it's not clear how to do it after reading that man page, do ask here > and ideally include a patch to the source for the man page. Thanks. You want a person who not fully understands the concept to come up with a patch? Although I was able to configure Rahul's example, I still don't understand the manpage. Let me give you some examples: > Configuration for the Local Authority are read from files in > the /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d directory. The file > 50-localauthority.conf contains the settings provided by the OS > vendor. > [snipped] > The Local Authority reads files with .pkla from the following > directories .... So what is the relationship between the .conf files in /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d and the .pkla files in /var/lib/polkit-1/? Do they coexist, does one overwrite the other or are they generated from the conf files? If so, by what program? > Allowed values are similar to what can be used in the defaults section > of .policy files used to define actions This is the first time .policy files are mentioned. Where are they and what is their purpose? > EXAMPLES > The following .pkla file We just learned that .pkla files live in /var/lib. So people are supposed to edit files in /var/lib that get overwritten on the next update? > David Regards, Christoph From mclasen at redhat.com Sun Oct 18 01:40:49 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:40:49 -0400 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255828451.2833.29.camel@wicktop.localdomain> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1255828451.2833.29.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Message-ID: <1255830049.2540.15.camel@planemask> On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 03:14 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: A couple of good questions, even if presented in a somewhat passive-aggressive tone. > > So what is the relationship between the .conf files > in /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d and the .pkla files > in /var/lib/polkit-1/? Do they coexist, does one overwrite the other or > are they generated from the conf files? If so, by what program? The man page could certainly be clearer on this point. My understanding is that files in /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d _can_ overwrite each other (according to their ordering), but there is no overwriting between configuration in /etc/polkit-1 and /var/lib/polkit-1. The files in /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d can only configure a single aspect: which identities count as 'administrator'. This is done with the key 'AdminIdentities'. The .pkla files in the various /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/ subdirectories can override each other (according to the ordering of the directories). The contain authorization entries that modify the policy for individual actions. As shown in the example in the man page. > This is the first time .policy files are mentioned. Where are they and > what is their purpose? .policy files live in /usr/share/polkit-1/actions. They are installed by mechanisms that are using PolicyKit, to define the actions that they want to be controlled by PolicyKit. See the section 'Declaring Actions' in polkit(8). > We just learned that .pkla files live in /var/lib. So people are > supposed to edit files in /var/lib that get overwritten on the next > update? If you study the contents of the polkit package, you will find that all the subdirectories below /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority are empty. If you create files there, they will not be overwritten by updates. The /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/10-vendor.d directory is meant for default policies provided by the vendor, and the polkit-desktop-policy package installs its .pkla files there. Those will of course be overwritten by updates. But they are not meant for editing, anyway. If you need to tweak the policy, create your own .pkla file and put it e.g. in /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/30-site.d. Matthias From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Oct 18 02:13:35 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 07:43:35 +0530 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4ADA79CF.2090405@fedoraproject.org> On 10/18/2009 02:04 AM, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 09:49 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> To help me understand this better, can you give me a example? Let's say >> I want to tweak PackageKit's policy to not ask for root password even >> when untrusted packages are being installed, > > (this is not a good idea but let's ignore that for the time being) Yeah, just a crazy example since I wanted to do something that I was pretty sure was not the default. >> how do I go about doing that? > > Did you look at the EXAMPLES section in the man page Matthias mentioned? > If it's not clear how to do it after reading that man page, do ask here > and ideally include a patch to the source for the man page. Thanks. Yeah, I did look at the man page and was still not clear about a few things (including how to figure out the list of possible actions associated with a particular program) but I got the answers I needed from Matthias Clasen on IRC earlier. Thanks. For anyone else following along, my current understanding of doing things: look into /usr/share/polkit-1/actions and grep actions foo.policy for a list of actions. Then for local changes, edit /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/60-desktop-policy.conf following /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/10-vendor.d/10-desktop-policy.pkla (vendor supplied) as an example. Rahul From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Sun Oct 18 10:31:00 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:31:00 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255830049.2540.15.camel@planemask> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1255828451.2833.29.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255830049.2540.15.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1255861861.2845.36.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Samstag, den 17.10.2009, 21:40 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 03:14 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > > A couple of good questions, even if presented in a somewhat > passive-aggressive tone. Sorry about that, it wasn't meant to be aggressive in any way. Nevertheless I have to admit that I found David's "come up with a patch" attitude somewhat arrogant. I sure the manpage will not get better if people who don't understand the concept completely start adding "corrections". > > So what is the relationship between the .conf files > > in /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d and the .pkla files > > in /var/lib/polkit-1/? Do they coexist, does one overwrite the other or > > are they generated from the conf files? If so, by what program? > > The man page could certainly be clearer on this point. My understanding > is that files in /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d _can_ overwrite > each other (according to their ordering), but there is no overwriting > between configuration in /etc/polkit-1 and /var/lib/polkit-1. The first is clear, the latter IMHO not. > The files in /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d can only configure a > single aspect: which identities count as 'administrator'. This is done > with the key 'AdminIdentities'. Thanks for the clarification, I think this should be in the manapge somehow. > The .pkla files in the various /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/ > subdirectories can override each other (according to the ordering of the > directories). The contain authorization entries that modify the policy > for individual actions. As shown in the example in the man page. Yes, this is understandable from the current manpage. > > This is the first time .policy files are mentioned. Where are they and > > what is their purpose? > > .policy files live in /usr/share/polkit-1/actions. They are installed by > mechanisms that are using PolicyKit, to define the actions that they > want to be controlled by PolicyKit. See the section 'Declaring Actions' > in polkit(8). Maybe a reference to polkit(8) should be added here and not only at the bottom. > > We just learned that .pkla files live in /var/lib. So people are > > supposed to edit files in /var/lib that get overwritten on the next > > update? > > If you study the contents of the polkit package, you will find that all > the subdirectories below /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority are empty. If > you create files there, they will not be overwritten by updates. I think the man page understandable by itself without looking at the filesystem or rpm database. > The /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/10-vendor.d directory is meant for > default policies provided by the vendor, and the polkit-desktop-policy > package installs its .pkla files there. Those will of course be > overwritten by updates. But they are not meant for editing, anyway. If > you need to tweak the policy, create your own .pkla file and put it e.g. > in /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/30-site.d. Understood, but this is not really following the fhs. .pkla files are config files, so shouldn't they be in /etc? Regards, Christoph From kanarip at kanarip.com Sun Oct 18 11:21:31 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:21:31 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4ADAFA3B.8030504@kanarip.com> On 10/17/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 09:49 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> To help me understand this better, can you give me a example? Let's say >> I want to tweak PackageKit's policy to not ask for root password even >> when untrusted packages are being installed, > > (this is not a good idea but let's ignore that for the time being) > Actually you're not in a position to determine whether this is or is not a good idea. -- Jeroen From kanarip at kanarip.com Sun Oct 18 11:55:14 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:55:14 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4ADB0222.3080400@kanarip.com> On 10/17/2009 06:19 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 10/17/2009 09:41 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 09:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> This GUI tool seems to have been lost in the transition to PolicKit-1. >>> Is there a plan on getting it back? It was quite convenient. If not, >>> what is the recommended method? >> >> We don't plan to bring a ui like that back. If you need to tweak policy, >> the local authority uses a simple file-based configuration, see >> pklocalauthority(8). Medium-term, we want to have a simple group-based >> configuration that will be accessible via some ui, see the >> polkit-desktop-policy package for the groundwork. > > To help me understand this better, can you give me a example? Let's say > I want to tweak PackageKit's policy to not ask for root password even > when untrusted packages are being installed, how do I go about doing that? > So, supposedly, here's what I would configure if only I was able to verify the configuration file with polkit-config-file-validate (it's linked against libpolkit.so.2 which is not available in Rawhide[1]). I would put it in /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/20-org.d/10-packagekit-policy.conf. == [PackageKit User Permissions] Identity=unix-group:employees Action=org.freedesktop.packagekit.package-install; org.freedesktop.packagekit.system-network-proxy-configure; org.freedesktop.packagekit.system-sources-refresh; org.freedesktop.packagekit.system-update ResultAny=yes [PackageKit Sysadmin Permissions] Identity=unix-group:sysadmin-local Action=org.freedesktop.packagekit.package-install-untrusted ResultAny=yes == I'm not sure what the ResultAny does, and the pklocalauthority(8) man page doesn't clarify: """ ResultActive (...) ResultInactive (...) ResultAny Like ResultActive but instead applies to any subject. """ What is "any subject"? Both Active and Inactive? Then why not require both to be set and eliminate this variable? Is anything other then Active and Inactive included in Any? """ All keys specified above are required except that only at least one of RequireAny, RequireInactive and RequireActive is present. The ReturnValue key is optional. """ What does Require* have to do with Result* exactly? -- Jeroen [1] $ polkit-config-file-validate ~/tmp/10-packagekit-policy.conf polkit-config-file-validate: error while loading shared libraries: libpolkit.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory $ yum whatprovides "*/libpolkit.so.2*" Loaded plugins: dellsysidplugin2, fastestmirror, refresh-packagekit Loading mirror speeds from cached hostfile * fedora-11-development: www.kanarip.com * fedora-11-rpmfusion-free-development: rpmfusion.famillecollet.com * fedora-11-rpmfusion-nonfree-development: rpmfusion.famillecollet.com fedora-11-gdbm/filelists_db | 39 kB 00:00 fedora-11-rpmfusion-free-development/filelists_db | 370 kB 00:01 fedora-11-rpmfusion-nonfree-development/filelists_db | 64 kB 00:00 fedora-11-ruby/filelists_db | 587 B 00:00 No Matches found From mclasen at redhat.com Sun Oct 18 18:07:56 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:07:56 -0400 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255861861.2845.36.camel@wicktop.localdomain> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1255828451.2833.29.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255830049.2540.15.camel@planemask> <1255861861.2845.36.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Message-ID: <1255889276.17506.11.camel@planemask> On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 12:31 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > > Understood, but this is not really following the fhs. .pkla files are > config files, so shouldn't they be in /etc? > 'config file' is really a bit simplistic, and doesn't really describe the situation adequately. Whether something is a config file or not depends a lot on your role. As I mentioned earlier, we have a package that installs files in /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/10-vendor.d, those are certainly not config files in the sense that you as a local administrator are supposed to edit them. And 20-org.d, 30-site.d don't really fit into the 'host-specific configuration data' bucket either. From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Sun Oct 18 20:17:03 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:17:03 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255889276.17506.11.camel@planemask> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1255828451.2833.29.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255830049.2540.15.camel@planemask> <1255861861.2845.36.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255889276.17506.11.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1255897023.2845.49.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Sonntag, den 18.10.2009, 14:07 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 12:31 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > > > > Understood, but this is not really following the fhs. .pkla files are > > config files, so shouldn't they be in /etc? > > > > 'config file' is really a bit simplistic, and doesn't really describe > the situation adequately. Whether something is a config file or not > depends a lot on your role. As I mentioned earlier, we have a package > that installs files in /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/10-vendor.d, > those are certainly not config files in the sense that you as a local > administrator are supposed to edit them. Agreed, but I as the administrator would need to configure things in /var/lib/polkit-1 in order to customize the settings. This is usually done in /etc and called "configuration". > And 20-org.d, 30-site.d don't > really fit into the 'host-specific configuration data' bucket either. Not really sure about 20-org.d and 30-site.d because after reading the manpage I still don't fully understand the meanings of "the organization deploying the system" (GNOME, KDE, Xfce? My company?) and "site deploying the system" (what does "site" mean in this context?). Anyway, I think we both agree that 50-local.d definitely contains "host-specific configuration data", do we? Regards, Christoph From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Sun Oct 18 20:30:22 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:30:22 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255897023.2845.49.camel@wicktop.localdomain> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1255828451.2833.29.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255830049.2540.15.camel@planemask> <1255861861.2845.36.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255889276.17506.11.camel@planemask> <1255897023.2845.49.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Message-ID: <1255897822.2845.53.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Just a quick follow-up: Am Sonntag, den 18.10.2009, 22:17 +0200 schrieb Christoph Wickert: > > Anyway, I think we both agree that 50-local.d definitely contains > "host-specific configuration data", do we? Quoting http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#VARLIBVARIABLESTATEINFORMATION "var/lib : Variable state information Purpose This hierarchy holds state information pertaining to an application or the system. State information is data that programs modify while they run, and that pertains to one specific host. Users must never need to modify files in /var/lib to configure a package's operation." > Regards, > Christoph From mclasen at redhat.com Sun Oct 18 21:12:22 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:12:22 -0400 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255897822.2845.53.camel@wicktop.localdomain> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1255828451.2833.29.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255830049.2540.15.camel@planemask> <1255861861.2845.36.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255889276.17506.11.camel@planemask> <1255897023.2845.49.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255897822.2845.53.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Message-ID: <1255900342.17506.15.camel@planemask> On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 22:30 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > Just a quick follow-up: > > Am Sonntag, den 18.10.2009, 22:17 +0200 schrieb Christoph Wickert: > > > > Anyway, I think we both agree that 50-local.d definitely contains > > "host-specific configuration data", do we? > > Quoting > http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#VARLIBVARIABLESTATEINFORMATION > > "var/lib : Variable state information > Purpose > This hierarchy holds state information pertaining to an application or > the system. State information is data that programs modify while they > run, and that pertains to one specific host. Users must never need to > modify files in /var/lib to configure a package's operation." Right. Users don't. Site or org administrators can install suitable policies there, preferably in the form of a policy package. From abo at root.snowtree.se Sun Oct 18 21:39:15 2009 From: abo at root.snowtree.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:39:15 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255900342.17506.15.camel@planemask> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1255828451.2833.29.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255830049.2540.15.camel@planemask> <1255861861.2845.36.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255889276.17506.11.camel@planemask> <1255897023.2845.49.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255897822.2845.53.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255900342.17506.15.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1255901955.24658.3.camel@tempo.alexander.bostrom.net> s?n 2009-10-18 klockan 17:12 -0400 skrev Matthias Clasen: > Site or org administrators can install suitable policies there, > preferably in the form of a policy package. It sounds like those files should be in /usr/share. Is this any different from, say, all the .desktop files that gets installed by packages? /abo From kanarip at kanarip.com Sun Oct 18 21:47:06 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:47:06 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1255900342.17506.15.camel@planemask> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1255828451.2833.29.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255830049.2540.15.camel@planemask> <1255861861.2845.36.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255889276.17506.11.camel@planemask> <1255897023.2845.49.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255897822.2845.53.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1255900342.17506.15.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADB8CDA.5070100@kanarip.com> On 10/18/2009 11:12 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 22:30 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: >> Just a quick follow-up: >> >> Am Sonntag, den 18.10.2009, 22:17 +0200 schrieb Christoph Wickert: >>> >>> Anyway, I think we both agree that 50-local.d definitely contains >>> "host-specific configuration data", do we? >> >> Quoting >> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#VARLIBVARIABLESTATEINFORMATION >> >> "var/lib : Variable state information >> Purpose >> This hierarchy holds state information pertaining to an application or >> the system. State information is data that programs modify while they >> run, and that pertains to one specific host. Users must never need to >> modify files in /var/lib to configure a package's operation." > > Right. Users don't. > What the FHS also says is it is application state data, a.k.a. transactional data, and not configuration data. Since the polkit-1 files should never be changed by users, and should thus also not be changed by a UI application, I fail to see how these configuration files can be in /var/lib/ instead of /etc/. More importantly, the definition of what is vendor, org, site and local is, IMHO, as follows: vendor is what PolicyKit ships as a default policy, much like perl and ruby have vendor libraries (modules, extensions). This policy can be overriden or extended by an organisation (example.org Ltd.) in org (possibly through configuration management). Site is for what packages deploy, much like perl and ruby use site directories, and local then finally gives an organisation the opportunity to lay down a policy applicable to just some hosts, only to finally have the mandatory policy (package A / local.d can set foo to be allowed but organisation does not want to allow it), much like perl and ruby use or are going to use /usr/local/lib{,64}/ and /usr/local/share/. It would make more sense to me to just have vendor (PolicyKit), site (packages), org (my configs) and local (my host specific configs) -in that order. It doesn't make much sense to me to have site be parsed after org, only to then have the same thing in mandatory again. Does such make sense compared to how it is supposed to be used, and if put in more proper wording, would such be how it could be explained in the man page? > Site or org administrators can install suitable policies there, > preferably in the form of a policy package. > Org, site and local administrators probably deploy some kind of configuration somehow (I'll withhold from my recommendations). It wouldn't matter much in what directory they are exactly (type once, deploy many, many times). It does matter in what order various files are to be parsed, and what files from which sources might end up in various places exactly. Could we have some more clarification on what the various directories in /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/ are supposed to be used for, and what could (may or may not) put files in these directories? -- Jeroen From naheemzaffar at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 00:09:16 2009 From: naheemzaffar at gmail.com (Naheem Zaffar) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 01:09:16 +0100 Subject: Remembering authorisations Message-ID: <3adc77210910181709y3c669dfet929179d75c4489fa@mail.gmail.com> On 10/17/2009 09:41 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > We don't plan to bring a ui like that back. If you need to tweak policy, > the local authority uses a simple file-based configuration, see > pklocalauthority(8). Medium-term, we want to have a simple group-based > configuration that will be accessible via some ui, see the > polkit-desktop-policy package for the groundwork. Is there going to be a way to remember authorisations through teh GUI even if there is not a way to manipulate them? Having to re enter the admin password each time I update the system seems to be a hassle... and I am sure there are other times when I want the authorisation to eb saved for the user, but no check box is visible to allow that on the GUI for the password that does pop up. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atorkhov at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 11:15:39 2009 From: atorkhov at gmail.com (Alexey Torkhov) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:15:39 +0400 Subject: Padding 10 in gnome-panel Message-ID: <1255950939.2799.17.camel@localhost> Hi. I?m wondering why was padding 10 added to default gnome-panel configuration? My panel at 1280x1024 with bunch of elements has now difficulties to fit them all. And at smaller resolutions, for example, at netbooks that wouldn?t be useful at all. Alexey From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Oct 19 12:36:28 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 08:36:28 -0400 Subject: Padding 10 in gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <1255950939.2799.17.camel@localhost> References: <1255950939.2799.17.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1255955788.1740.1.camel@planemask> On Mon, 2009-10-19 at 15:15 +0400, Alexey Torkhov wrote: > Hi. > > I?m wondering why was padding 10 added to default gnome-panel > configuration? My panel at 1280x1024 with bunch of elements has now > difficulties to fit them all. And at smaller resolutions, for example, > at netbooks that wouldn?t be useful at all. The padding was added because it makes things look less crammed together. If it doesn't work for you, gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/top_panel/padding 0 gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/bottom_panel/padding 0 will get rid of it. From johannbg at hi.is Mon Oct 19 14:05:22 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?UTF-8?B?IkrDs2hhbm4gQi4gR3XDsG11bmRzc29uIg==?=) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:05:22 +0000 Subject: default fonts in Firefox for Fedora look very bad In-Reply-To: <1255556695.2251.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4bcf41a00910141400r5ce4e0b8hca7ecdb7ebe06631@mail.gmail.com> <1255556695.2251.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4ADC7222.2080602@hi.is> On 10/14/2009 09:44 PM, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 00:00 +0300, Marius Andreiana wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Could anyone with graphic design experience offer more details on this bug? >> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523487 >> >> Google confirms it's not just my impression. >> > Well, the only important difference there is that the font used by linux > version is bigger and uses just grey scale antialiasing as opposed to > the hinted subpixel antialiasing used by windows (not perfect either) -- > you are comparing apples with oranges. > > It seems that gecko respects system wide settings (sans size; come to > think of it, why is the font size in firefox apparently measured in > pixels instead of the usual typographic units [pt]?) as I have nice > fonts in (almost) default rawhide installation with subpixel hinting > turned on (and size toned down a bit) and it looks in firefox just the > same as in the rest of the desktop (and to say, much better than the > screenshots from both windows and fedora you provided, at least on my > laptop). > > I hook my laptop running F12 beta Live CD to my 1920x1080 43" LCD TV and it truly reveal how horrific the default fonts look like.. ( you will also notice how both the top and bottom panel are utterly broken. ). JBG -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: johannbg.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 372 bytes Desc: not available URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 19:52:42 2009 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 19:52:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: No IRC support in Fedora 12?!? References: <20091011042924.GB14977@victoria.internal.frields.org> <1255370192.2311.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 13:56:32 -0400, Zack Cerza wrote: > It's not this bug is it? > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=528038 Yes, it look like this is the bug I stepped onto also. Thanks, I looked a bit stupid, you saved me :) -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From mike at miketc.net Mon Oct 19 21:45:08 2009 From: mike at miketc.net (Mike Chambers) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:45:08 -0500 Subject: Padding 10 in gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <1255955788.1740.1.camel@planemask> References: <1255950939.2799.17.camel@localhost> <1255955788.1740.1.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1255988708.7763.1.camel@scrappy.miketc.net> On Mon, 2009-10-19 at 08:36 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-19 at 15:15 +0400, Alexey Torkhov wrote: > > Hi. > > > > I?m wondering why was padding 10 added to default gnome-panel > > configuration? My panel at 1280x1024 with bunch of elements has now > > difficulties to fit them all. And at smaller resolutions, for example, > > at netbooks that wouldn?t be useful at all. > > > The padding was added because it makes things look less crammed > together. If it doesn't work for you, > > gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/top_panel/padding 0 > gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/bottom_panel/padding > 0 Any chance instead of 10, maybe try using between 3-5 and see how that works? It just seemed with 10, that the icons were a little *too* far apart and took up a whole lot more room. -- Mike Chambers Madisonville, KY "Best lil town on Earth!" From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 12:54:38 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:54:38 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes Message-ID: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> Since some folks have wondered, here is a list of some recent changes we have done to the panel configuration in the desktop spin: - Gnote has been moved to the left, with the other launchers, the user switcher has been moved to the far right and the show desktop button has been removed. - We have added padding between objects on the panel. If you don't like this for some reason, you can remove it by gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/top_panel/padding 0 gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/bottom_panel/padding 0 - We have added padding between status icons in the notification area. If you like your icons close to each other, use gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/applets/systray/prefs/padding 0 - 'Standard' status icons are now put in a fixed order on the right, while other icons are placed to the left. This means that your volume control, network, battery, bluetooth indicators will no longer jump around as icons come and go. - The clock applet now has a default location, since this feature is much easier to grasp if there is an initial location. Matthias From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 13:10:12 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:10:12 -0400 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <4ADB0222.3080400@kanarip.com> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <4ADB0222.3080400@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1256044212.1803.15.camel@planemask> On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 13:55 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > I would put it in > /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/20-org.d/10-packagekit-policy.conf. That should be /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/20-org.d/10-packagekit-policy.pkla, I think. > What is "any subject"? Both Active and Inactive? Then why not require > both to be set and eliminate this variable? Is anything other then > Active and Inactive included in Any? If you read the small print, ResultActive/Inactive are described as applying to subjects in _local_ sessions. Presumably, ResultAny covers subjects in remote sessions (or even without sessions ?) as well. > What does Require* have to do with Result* exactly? This is a bug, I would say. The paragraph is supposed to refer to ResultFoo, not RequireFoo. I've reported it here for you: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24640 > [1] $ polkit-config-file-validate ~/tmp/10-packagekit-policy.conf > polkit-config-file-validate: error while loading shared libraries: You really should not have polkit-config-file-validate installed. It is part of the PolicyKit 0.9 packages that have been obsoleted by polkit. Matthias From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 13:12:23 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:42:23 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> On 10/20/2009 06:24 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Since some folks have wondered, here is a list of some recent changes we > have done to the panel configuration in the desktop spin: > > - Gnote has been moved to the left, with the other launchers, the user > switcher has been moved to the far right and the show desktop button has > been removed. Why did you remove the show desktop button? Rahul From johannbg at hi.is Tue Oct 20 13:31:52 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?UTF-8?B?IkrDs2hhbm4gQi4gR3XDsG11bmRzc29uIg==?=) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:31:52 +0000 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDBBC8.6050308@hi.is> On 10/20/2009 12:54 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Since some folks have wondered, here is a list of some recent changes we > have done to the panel configuration in the desktop spin: > > - Gnote has been moved to the left, with the other launchers, the user > switcher has been moved to the far right and the show desktop button has > been removed. > > - We have added padding between objects on the panel. If you don't like > this for some reason, you can remove it by > gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/top_panel/padding 0 > gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/bottom_panel/padding 0 > > - We have added padding between status icons in the notification area. > If you like your icons close to each other, use > gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/applets/systray/prefs/padding 0 > > - 'Standard' status icons are now put in a fixed order on the right, > while other icons are placed to the left. This means that your volume > control, network, battery, bluetooth indicators will no longer jump > around as icons come and go. > > - The clock applet now has a default location, since this feature is > much easier to grasp if there is an initial location. > > Those changes propably explains why the top and bottom panel went haywire after I hooked my laptop up to my 43" 1920x1080 LCD TV running f12 beta and switch the output to the tv. will test that and disable those *new* features to narrow it down what causes panels to go berserk and file a report. It would be good if there's external monitor and dual or more monitor tests added to the gnome desktop test days this is not the first and probably not the last the panels go haywire when changing resolution and or switching between display's. For instance you no longer seem to be able to move those panels around screens in dual monitor setup ( thou you can move application between screens ) in F11. JBG -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: johannbg.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 372 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 13:41:26 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:41:26 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 18:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 10/20/2009 06:24 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Since some folks have wondered, here is a list of some recent changes we > > have done to the panel configuration in the desktop spin: > > > > - Gnote has been moved to the left, with the other launchers, the user > > switcher has been moved to the far right and the show desktop button has > > been removed. > > Why did you remove the show desktop button? Because 'where did all my windows suddenly disappear to ?' is a very frightening question for people who are not aware what they just clicked by accident. From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 13:43:30 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:43:30 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDBBC8.6050308@hi.is> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDBBC8.6050308@hi.is> Message-ID: <1256046210.1803.18.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 13:31 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: > > Those changes propably explains why the top and bottom panel went > haywire after I hooked my laptop up to my 43" 1920x1080 LCD TV running > f12 beta and switch the output to the tv. Unlikely. The panel has always had suboptimal handling for resolution changes. But 'go berserk' is not a useful bug report anyway... From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 13:46:15 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:16:15 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> On 10/20/2009 07:11 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 18:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> On 10/20/2009 06:24 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>> Since some folks have wondered, here is a list of some recent changes we >>> have done to the panel configuration in the desktop spin: >>> >>> - Gnote has been moved to the left, with the other launchers, the user >>> switcher has been moved to the far right and the show desktop button has >>> been removed. >> >> Why did you remove the show desktop button? > > Because 'where did all my windows suddenly disappear to ?' is a very > frightening question for people who are not aware what they just clicked > by accident. They don't see the window list in the bottom? The show desktop button has been in the GNOME panel for years and years. I am not sure why you wait for such changes to be done at the last minute. Where does such changes get discussed? If you had done it earlier in the development cycle and announce/discuss the changes before you do them, it would be helpful to gather feedback and document the gconf keys and what not in the release notes. These sort of unannounced changes done tend to frustrate people a lot. Rahul From johannbg at hi.is Tue Oct 20 14:06:16 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?UTF-8?B?IkrDs2hhbm4gQi4gR3XDsG11bmRzc29uIg==?=) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:06:16 +0000 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256046210.1803.18.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDBBC8.6050308@hi.is> <1256046210.1803.18.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDC3D8.5010806@hi.is> On 10/20/2009 01:43 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 13:31 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: > >> Those changes propably explains why the top and bottom panel went >> haywire after I hooked my laptop up to my 43" 1920x1080 LCD TV running >> f12 beta and switch the output to the tv. >> > Unlikely. The panel has always had suboptimal handling for resolution > changes. But 'go berserk' is not a useful bug report anyway... > > Well berserk is as good description of the problem as any.. Picture will be attached to the actual bug report in RHBZ. What ( recent changes ) can cause the panel(s) both the top and bottom and new panels to lock it self to a single monitor and only be able to move those panel between top or bottom in F11 What's the best way to report/debug these panel problems ? JBG -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: johannbg.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 372 bytes Desc: not available URL: From davidz at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 14:06:29 2009 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:06:29 -0400 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <4ADAFA3B.8030504@kanarip.com> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADAFA3B.8030504@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1256047589.1812.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 13:21 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > On 10/17/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 09:49 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> To help me understand this better, can you give me a example? Let's say > >> I want to tweak PackageKit's policy to not ask for root password even > >> when untrusted packages are being installed, > > > > (this is not a good idea but let's ignore that for the time being) > > > > Actually you're not in a position to determine whether this is or is not > a good idea. Actually I'm uniquely qualified to make statements like that since I wrote the mechanism (e.g. PolicyKit) allowing people to aim for their foot and blow their whole leg off. (Allowing people to hang themselves (or shoot their leg or foot off or whatever) is of course not the goal of PolicyKit... but since PolicyKit is a security-mechanism it does allow people to do such things even if they are crazy.) Mind you, not only am I qualified to make such statements, it's my goddamn responsibility, as the author of the software, to tell people "don't do that, it's a root-exploit in the making" - especially if it's on a public mailing list where authors of "helpful" guides a'la "How to make Fedora Work" recipes etc. will find the discussion via Google and other search engines. David From atorkhov at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 14:17:42 2009 From: atorkhov at gmail.com (Alexey Torkhov) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:17:42 +0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256048262.11029.5.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 09:41 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 18:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > On 10/20/2009 06:24 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > Since some folks have wondered, here is a list of some recent changes we > > > have done to the panel configuration in the desktop spin: > > > > > > - Gnote has been moved to the left, with the other launchers, the user > > > switcher has been moved to the far right and the show desktop button has > > > been removed. > > > > Why did you remove the show desktop button? > > Because 'where did all my windows suddenly disappear to ?' is a very > frightening question for people who are not aware what they just clicked > by accident. That button have a tooltip and button with same functionality exists on windows. So, if people are clicking randomly and frighten of this, may be all other nice functionality should be hidden and desktop locked in default configuration? Alexey From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 14:20:45 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:20:45 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDC3D8.5010806@hi.is> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDBBC8.6050308@hi.is> <1256046210.1803.18.camel@planemask> <4ADDC3D8.5010806@hi.is> Message-ID: <1256048445.1803.24.camel@planemask> > What ( recent changes ) can cause the panel(s) both the top and bottom > and new panels to lock it self to a single monitor and only be able to > move those panel between top or bottom in F11 I am not sure what exactly your problem is. I just Alt-clicked on my top panel and wiggled a little to move it to the other monitor. Worked just fine. Maybe you are not aware that dragging panels now requires the same modifier as dragging windows ? I think that change was already the case in F11... > What's the best way to report/debug these panel problems ? Best way to report: bugzilla Best way to debug: Describe clearly how you are trying to do something, and ask if something related has changed ? Like: 'I used to be able to drag a panel between monitors by just clicking on it - this does not seem to work anymore. Did something change ?' Try to avoid interpretation of changed system behaviour ('panels lock themselves to a single monitor') since that only muddies the water. Matthias From atorkhov at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 14:22:10 2009 From: atorkhov at gmail.com (Alexey Torkhov) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:22:10 +0400 Subject: Padding 10 in gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <1255988708.7763.1.camel@scrappy.miketc.net> References: <1255950939.2799.17.camel@localhost> <1255955788.1740.1.camel@planemask> <1255988708.7763.1.camel@scrappy.miketc.net> Message-ID: <1256048530.11029.7.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-10-19 at 16:45 -0500, Mike Chambers wrote: > Any chance instead of 10, maybe try using between 3-5 and see how that > works? It just seemed with 10, that the icons were a little *too* far > apart and took up a whole lot more room. I think too that it could be made smaller, but around 7 to match padding in regular menus. Alexey From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 15:06:16 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:06:16 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram said the following on 10/20/2009 06:46 AM Pacific Time: > On 10/20/2009 07:11 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 18:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> On 10/20/2009 06:24 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>>> Since some folks have wondered, here is a list of some recent changes we >>>> have done to the panel configuration in the desktop spin: >>>> >>>> - Gnote has been moved to the left, with the other launchers, the user >>>> switcher has been moved to the far right and the show desktop button has >>>> been removed. >>> Why did you remove the show desktop button? >> Because 'where did all my windows suddenly disappear to ?' is a very >> frightening question for people who are not aware what they just clicked >> by accident. > > They don't see the window list in the bottom? The show desktop button > has been in the GNOME panel for years and years. I am not sure why you > wait for such changes to be done at the last minute. Where does such > changes get discussed? > > If you had done it earlier in the development cycle and announce/discuss > the changes before you do them, it would be helpful to gather feedback > and document the gconf keys and what not in the release notes. These > sort of unannounced changes done tend to frustrate people a lot. > > Rahul > I think removing the hide desktop button is a really bad change too. I also don't understand why these changes continue to pile on when we are way past past alpha and feature freeze. These do not seem like "bug fixes." Are more changes planned too? Is there a compelling reason (e.g. user interaction study, etc.) why this change is being made and why it has to be made now? John From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 15:07:20 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:07:20 -0700 Subject: Recent changes to gnome-panel Message-ID: <1256051240.2314.240.camel@adam.local.net> Hi, guys. This is a reply to the 'Some recent changes' thread, but I wasn't subscribed at that time so can't reply to it directly. Echoing the concerns raised by J?hann Gu?mundsson, I wanted to pass on some discussion of these changes from the forums: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=232166 there's concern that this kind of highly-visible behaviour change shouldn't be introduced this late in the cycle. When I talked to Matthias on IRC he seemed to think the changes to remove the 'show desktop' button and reduce the default number of workspaces from 4 to 2 should affect only new users, but the forum discussion seems to indicate they actually affect existing users too. Is this considered a bug? (slowjet's problems with icons not showing up and crashing I'll deal with just as a bug.) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From notting at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 15:22:39 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:22:39 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> John Poelstra (poelstra at redhat.com) said: > I also don't understand why these changes continue to pile on when > we are way past past alpha and feature freeze. These do not seem > like "bug fixes." Are more changes planned too? I don't see how padding tweaks and fixing the icons to have a consistent order qualifies as anything other than a bug fix. Bill From notting at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 15:23:51 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:23:51 -0400 Subject: Recent changes to gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <1256051240.2314.240.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256051240.2314.240.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <20091020152351.GC32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) said: > there's concern that this kind of highly-visible behaviour change > shouldn't be introduced this late in the cycle. When I talked to > Matthias on IRC he seemed to think the changes to remove the 'show > desktop' button and reduce the default number of workspaces from 4 to 2 > should affect only new users, but the forum discussion seems to indicate > they actually affect existing users too. Is this considered a bug? I can confirm that the changes do not affect the existing user on my laptop. Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 15:29:46 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:29:46 -0400 Subject: Recent changes to gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <20091020152351.GC32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256051240.2314.240.camel@adam.local.net> <20091020152351.GC32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256052586.1803.29.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 11:23 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) said: > > there's concern that this kind of highly-visible behaviour change > > shouldn't be introduced this late in the cycle. When I talked to > > Matthias on IRC he seemed to think the changes to remove the 'show > > desktop' button and reduce the default number of workspaces from 4 to 2 > > should affect only new users, but the forum discussion seems to indicate > > they actually affect existing users too. Is this considered a bug? > > I can confirm that the changes do not affect the existing user on my > laptop. 'It depends'. The change is to the default value of some GConf settings. So if you have tweaked the value before, you won't be affected by changes to the default. If you haven't, you will be. From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 15:33:06 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:33:06 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 08:06 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > I think removing the hide desktop button is a really bad change too. I > also don't understand why these changes continue to pile on when we are > way past past alpha and feature freeze. These do not seem like "bug > fixes." Are more changes planned too? > > Is there a compelling reason (e.g. user interaction study, etc.) why > this change is being made and why it has to be made now? This change has to be made now because we want F12 to be as polished as it can be. Dropping dead and refraining from any further changes at beta time might be comforting to rel-eng and qa, but it is not conductive to getting the best release we can. I strongly deny that we have to provide a 'user interaction study' for every change we make. From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 15:48:23 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:48:23 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDDBC7.1010906@redhat.com> Matthias Clasen said the following on 10/20/2009 08:33 AM Pacific Time: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 08:06 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > >> I think removing the hide desktop button is a really bad change too. I >> also don't understand why these changes continue to pile on when we are >> way past past alpha and feature freeze. These do not seem like "bug >> fixes." Are more changes planned too? >> >> Is there a compelling reason (e.g. user interaction study, etc.) why >> this change is being made and why it has to be made now? > > This change has to be made now because we want F12 to be as polished as > it can be. Dropping dead and refraining from any further changes at beta > time might be comforting to rel-eng and qa, but it is not conductive to > getting the best release we can. > > I strongly deny that we have to provide a 'user interaction study' for > every change we make. > > Please quote the section above where I said you "have to provide a user interaction study." I still don't see the compelling reason for this change beyond that you thought it should happen. Is this an upstream decision or maybe you "are upstream"? I'm still trying to understand how all this works :) Thanks, John From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 15:44:53 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:14:53 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> On 10/20/2009 09:03 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: ? > > This change has to be made now because we want F12 to be as polished as > it can be. Dropping dead and refraining from any further changes at beta > time might be comforting to rel-eng and qa, but it is not conductive to > getting the best release we can. Neither is doing things at the last minute. If the changes were so important, why weren't they done earlier? The show desktop icon has been the default for many many years. What is driving the sudden change? > I strongly deny that we have to provide a 'user interaction study' for > every change we make. I think this just deflects the point that late changes frustrate end users and has the potential to cause problems. Unless there is a strong reason to make such changes now, it shouldn't be done at the end of the development cycle. It should be done early during the development of a new release, preferably somewhere around Alpha release and it should be announced and discussed ahead of time. This helps gather feedback, tweak or change settings if necessary and document the rationale and how to revert back those changes if the user preferences are different. Rahul From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 15:52:04 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:52:04 -0700 Subject: Recent changes to gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <1256051240.2314.240.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256051240.2314.240.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <4ADDDCA4.5000904@redhat.com> Adam Williamson said the following on 10/20/2009 08:07 AM Pacific Time: > Hi, guys. This is a reply to the 'Some recent changes' thread, but I > wasn't subscribed at that time so can't reply to it directly. > > Echoing the concerns raised by J?hann Gu?mundsson, I wanted to pass on > some discussion of these changes from the forums: > > http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=232166 > > there's concern that this kind of highly-visible behaviour change > shouldn't be introduced this late in the cycle. When I talked to > Matthias on IRC he seemed to think the changes to remove the 'show > desktop' button and reduce the default number of workspaces from 4 to 2 > should affect only new users, but the forum discussion seems to indicate > they actually affect existing users too. Is this considered a bug? > I would still like to understand better how these decisions are being made. Is there a desktop meeting or SIG that decides these things? Do we just take whatever the defaults are from Gnome upstream? John From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 15:54:04 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:54:04 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 11:22 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > John Poelstra (poelstra at redhat.com) said: > > I also don't understand why these changes continue to pile on when > > we are way past past alpha and feature freeze. These do not seem > > like "bug fixes." Are more changes planned too? > > I don't see how padding tweaks and fixing the icons to have a consistent > order qualifies as anything other than a bug fix. Consistent ordering, yes. Padding tweaks, mostly, but note the point that what's happening is we're *adding* padding where before there was none, and this makes icons take up a lot more space on panels. At low resolution, it'll be pretty easy to have half your panel full of icons. The changes that people have mostly worried about are the removal of the 'show desktop' button and the change in the default number of workspaces. Those are straight configuration changes, not bug fixes, and the rationale seems a bit debatable (I've never yet come across someone who hit the 'show desktop' button accidentally and curled into a fetal ball, but I'm willing to be shown some :>). I didn't yet catch a rationale for the change in the number of workspaces. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 15:53:28 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:53:28 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDDBC7.1010906@redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDBC7.1010906@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256054008.1803.38.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 08:48 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Matthias Clasen said the following on 10/20/2009 08:33 AM Pacific Time: > > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 08:06 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > > > >> I think removing the hide desktop button is a really bad change too. I > >> also don't understand why these changes continue to pile on when we are > >> way past past alpha and feature freeze. These do not seem like "bug > >> fixes." Are more changes planned too? > >> > >> Is there a compelling reason (e.g. user interaction study, etc.) why > >> this change is being made and why it has to be made now? > > > > This change has to be made now because we want F12 to be as polished as > > it can be. Dropping dead and refraining from any further changes at beta > > time might be comforting to rel-eng and qa, but it is not conductive to > > getting the best release we can. > > > > I strongly deny that we have to provide a 'user interaction study' for > > every change we make. > > > > > > Please quote the section above where I said you "have to provide a user > interaction study." I still don't see the compelling reason for this > change beyond that you thought it should happen. Right, you didn't actually say that. I just read it that way. Sorry. > Is this an upstream decision or maybe you "are upstream"? I'm still > trying to understand how all this works :) There is no upstream in the default panel configuration - this has always been our own. Look for redhat-panel-default-setup.entries in our gnome-panel package. So yes, this is just our effort to come up with the best initial panel configuration for the desktop spin. From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 16:04:01 2009 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (sankarshan) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:34:01 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <35586fc00910200904g47465f6cm7614aa921380a0f7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Because 'where did all my windows suddenly disappear to ?' is a very > frightening question for people who are not aware what they just clicked > by accident. The "show desktop" button is incredibly helpful and, thanks to the tool-tip is a bit difficult to randomly click. Has there been an increasing number of instances about users getting bewildered by the behavior when the button is accidentally clicked ? Is there a way to bring it back (after installing a desktop that does not have that button) if I choose to have it ? -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 16:12:21 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:12:21 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <35586fc00910200904g47465f6cm7614aa921380a0f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <35586fc00910200904g47465f6cm7614aa921380a0f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1256055141.2314.250.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 21:34 +0530, sankarshan wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > Because 'where did all my windows suddenly disappear to ?' is a very > > frightening question for people who are not aware what they just clicked > > by accident. > > The "show desktop" button is incredibly helpful and, thanks to the > tool-tip is a bit difficult to randomly click. Has there been an > increasing number of instances about users getting bewildered by the > behavior when the button is accidentally clicked ? Is there a way to > bring it back (after installing a desktop that does not have that > button) if I choose to have it ? yes, you can right click and add it as a panel item. It's in the list as 'Show Desktop'. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From johannbg at hi.is Tue Oct 20 16:14:03 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?UTF-8?B?IkrDs2hhbm4gQi4gR3XDsG11bmRzc29uIg==?=) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:14:03 +0000 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256048445.1803.24.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDBBC8.6050308@hi.is> <1256046210.1803.18.camel@planemask> <4ADDC3D8.5010806@hi.is> <1256048445.1803.24.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDE1CB.4070304@hi.is> On 10/20/2009 02:20 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > >> What ( recent changes ) can cause the panel(s) both the top and bottom >> and new panels to lock it self to a single monitor and only be able to >> move those panel between top or bottom in F11 >> > I am not sure what exactly your problem is. I just Alt-clicked on my top > panel and wiggled a little to move it to the other monitor. Worked just > fine. Maybe you are not aware that dragging panels now requires the same > modifier as dragging windows ? I think that change was already the case > in F11... NOTABUG Pebcak issue.. I was unaware I could use panel to move panel and had spent countless hours trying to move the panel by right clicking and choose move guess I was just moving everything else on the panels around... This happened after I had update and did a reboot then when I logged in all the panels ( yes I have more then 2 ) where all on one monitor. I guess the panel positions did not get stored when I logged out and rebooted.. JBG -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: johannbg.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 372 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 16:13:20 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:13:20 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 21:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 10/20/2009 09:03 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > ? > > > > This change has to be made now because we want F12 to be as polished as > > it can be. Dropping dead and refraining from any further changes at beta > > time might be comforting to rel-eng and qa, but it is not conductive to > > getting the best release we can. > > Neither is doing things at the last minute. If the changes were so > important, why weren't they done earlier? The show desktop icon has been > the default for many many years. What is driving the sudden change? Last minute is hardly accurate when we still have 4 weeks to go to the actual release. Thats 1/6 of the entire devel cycle. Polish changes are happening now because F12 feature development is finished, so we have to time to concentrate on polishing things for the release. Any change appears sudden the moment it happens. At least if you are not paying close attention. We have been making polish tweaks to the default desktop configuration for a while now, so this should not come as a bit surprise to you if you have been following rawhide. It will certainly appear sudden to users who switch from F11 to F12. And it will do so regardless if I do it in May or in October. > > I strongly deny that we have to provide a 'user interaction study' for > > every change we make. > > I think this just deflects the point that late changes frustrate end > users and has the potential to cause problems. What users ? There are no F12 users at this point. What we have right now are testers, and I appreciate their feedback, but I judge it based on the knowledge that most people have an initial negative reaction to _any_ change. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 16:26:13 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:56:13 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDE4A5.7080906@fedoraproject.org> On 10/20/2009 09:43 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Last minute is hardly accurate when we still have 4 weeks to go to the > actual release. Thats 1/6 of the entire devel cycle. Post-beta updates are for fixing release critical bugs and other serious issues and NOT time for "polish" especially when such polish includes theme changes and removing the show desktop button from the default panel without any discussion at all. Polish changes are > happening now because F12 feature development is finished, so we have to > time to concentrate on polishing things for the release. Any change > appears sudden the moment it happens. At least if you are not paying > close attention. I have been paying very close attention which is why I know that none of these changes were ever discussed or explained anywhere in this list. In other words, it appears as a sudden change precisely because it is just a sudden change. We have been making polish tweaks to the default > desktop configuration for a while now, so this should not come as a bit > surprise to you if you have been following rawhide. It will certainly > appear sudden to users who switch from F11 to F12. And it will do so > regardless if I do it in May or in October. Yes but it will help if you make such changes after discussing it in this list instead of just on IRC or internal team meetings. If you make such changes earlier in the life cycle, it will allow more time to get feedback and document the changes. > What users ? There are no F12 users at this point. What we have right > now are testers, and I appreciate their feedback, but I judge it based > on the knowledge that most people have an initial negative reaction to > _any_ change. Testers are just early users. Everybody's feedback is biased. I hope you don't discard everybody's feedback and just make whatever changes you prefer. Nobody will appreciate that. Rahul From walters at verbum.org Tue Oct 20 16:34:59 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:34:59 +0000 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > (I've never yet come across someone > who hit the 'show desktop' button accidentally and curled into a fetal > ball, but I'm willing to be shown some :>). I've personally seen a number of people new to the system do it, and Bryan Clark (former GNOME interaction designer) mentioned it as a problem he saw with the layout. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 16:47:09 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:17:09 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <4ADDE98D.6090705@fedoraproject.org> On 10/20/2009 10:04 PM, Colin Walters wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> (I've never yet come across someone >> who hit the 'show desktop' button accidentally and curled into a fetal >> ball, but I'm willing to be shown some :>). > > I've personally seen a number of people new to the system do it, and > Bryan Clark (former GNOME interaction designer) mentioned it as a > problem he saw with the layout. I am not convinced this is a change for the better but even if it is, why wait until the beta has already been released to make the change? Why not explain the rationale, discuss it in this list first and get some consensus from others and then make the changes? While some of the changes are at-least being announced in this list these days, it could be much better. There is a repeated lack of transparency in the decision making process surrounding many of the changes the desktop team makes which is problematic and yes, I am paying close attention. Making such changes in the end of the release means that we will have to rush to document them in the release notes which are already frozen for translations just as a single example of the problem of doing things now instead of earlier in the release cycle. Even minor tweaks tend to have a big impact. I spend a lot of time in the end user forums answering questions and I have to document them in the release notes if I don't want to spend even more time answering the same questions and believe me, any change in the default panel is going to get end users puzzled because they already have strong expectations from years of experience with the defaults. Easing the pain of transitioning from one release to another should be a important goal. Rahul From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 16:58:47 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:58:47 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1256044212.1803.15.camel@planemask> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <4ADB0222.3080400@kanarip.com> <1256044212.1803.15.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDEC47.5010005@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 03:10 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 13:55 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >> I would put it in >> /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/20-org.d/10-packagekit-policy.conf. > > That should > be /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/20-org.d/10-packagekit-policy.pkla, > I think. > OK, fair enough >> What is "any subject"? Both Active and Inactive? Then why not require >> both to be set and eliminate this variable? Is anything other then >> Active and Inactive included in Any? > > If you read the small print, ResultActive/Inactive are described as > applying to subjects in _local_ sessions. Presumably, ResultAny covers > subjects in remote sessions (or even without sessions ?) as well. > Maybe such can be clarified especially for first time users. >> What does Require* have to do with Result* exactly? > > This is a bug, I would say. The paragraph is supposed to refer to > ResultFoo, not RequireFoo. I've reported it here for you: > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24640 > Thanks! > >> [1] $ polkit-config-file-validate ~/tmp/10-packagekit-policy.conf >> polkit-config-file-validate: error while loading shared libraries: > > You really should not have polkit-config-file-validate installed. It is > part of the PolicyKit 0.9 packages that have been obsoleted by polkit. > Is there a way to verify whether my configuration files make any sense to polkit? I tend to do stuff beyond what is acceptable by the application using the config file every once in a while ;-) Thanks, Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 16:58:18 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:58:18 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDE98D.6090705@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDE98D.6090705@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256057898.1803.50.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 22:17 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Making such changes in the end of the release means that we will have to > rush to document them in the release notes which are already frozen for > translations just as a single example of the problem of doing things now > instead of earlier in the release cycle. Even minor tweaks tend to have > a big impact. Then we need a longer release cycle. After feature freeze, add a polish period, followed by a string and documentation freeze. Seriously, do you think we have been doing nothing all summer only to sneak this stuff in late behind your back ?! I have added a section outlining these changes to the desktop beat for the release notes. > I spend a lot of time in the end user forums answering questions and I > have to document them in the release notes if I don't want to spend even > more time answering the same questions and believe me, any change in the > default panel is going to get end users puzzled because they already > have strong expectations from years of experience with the defaults. > Easing the pain of transitioning from one release to another should be a > important goal. 'No change' is obviously not the right answer to 'pain of transitioning'. If we were taking upgrades seriously, then preupgrade would receive enough attention to handle transitioning of user settings. But that is not the case. I think this dispute mostly comes down to difference of perspective: We want to make the Fedora Desktop better, so that it can attract new users (currently, they all go somewhere else). You are concerned about users who have stuck with Fedora throughout the years and have gotten used to all the crap and unpolished stuff we have been putting out... From duffy at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 16:58:58 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:58:58 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> On 10/20/2009 12:34 PM, Colin Walters wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> (I've never yet come across someone >> who hit the 'show desktop' button accidentally and curled into a fetal >> ball, but I'm willing to be shown some :>). > > I've personally seen a number of people new to the system do it, and > Bryan Clark (former GNOME interaction designer) mentioned it as a > problem he saw with the layout. Folks coming from Windows are accustomed to the lower left screen area target bringing up the 'Start' menu, and I have witnessed skilled Windows users trying to use Fedora specifically, assuming the button would bring up a 'Start' menu-like UI, and instead getting confused when instead all their windows disappeared. Moving the 'show desktop' button from the bottom left corner targeting area would, for that reason alone, make it easier for Windows immigrants to deal with our desktop. I believe the 'Start' menu is many Windows users' primary method to launch applications, so I think a significant portion of Windows users trying out Fedora would hit the 'Show Desktop' button in error. While it doesn't involve a show desktop button, there is a usability report and associated usability videos testing the SuSE desktop that reports users do feel disoriented and dislike when all of their windows disappear off the desktop: http://www.betterdesktop.org/welcome/reports/report-use-window-picker.html FWIW 'Show desktop' has been a critical piece of functionality for my own workflow for many years, even back when Windows was my primary desktop. Even so, I think it is not a feature appreciated by folks new to our desktop, especially from other operating systems. As a big fan of the feature, I am perfectly happy with it being a one-time right-click + add to panel affair to add it back, especially if it means an easy improvement in convertees' first-experiences with Fedora. I'd rather not make any remarks on the timing of the change, though. ~m From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 17:04:18 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:04:18 +0200 Subject: Padding 10 in gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <1255955788.1740.1.camel@planemask> References: <1255950939.2799.17.camel@localhost> <1255955788.1740.1.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDED92.8050500@kanarip.com> On 10/19/2009 02:36 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-19 at 15:15 +0400, Alexey Torkhov wrote: >> Hi. >> >> I???m wondering why was padding 10 added to default gnome-panel >> configuration? My panel at 1280x1024 with bunch of elements has now >> difficulties to fit them all. And at smaller resolutions, for example, >> at netbooks that wouldn???t be useful at all. > > > The padding was added because it makes things look less crammed > together. Wow. FWIW, I think it sucks. In any case padding 10 is far too large as I can fit an icon in between every other icon -not to mention stuff not fitting in the screen's width. If it doesn't work for you, > > gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/top_panel/padding 0 > gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/bottom_panel/padding > 0 > How do I set this for all users so that I can deploy it for all users over all systems? -- Jeroen From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 17:09:21 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256057898.1803.50.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDE98D.6090705@fedoraproject.org> <1256057898.1803.50.camel@planemask> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 22:17 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> I spend a lot of time in the end user forums answering questions and I >> have to document them in the release notes if I don't want to spend even >> more time answering the same questions and believe me, any change in the >> default panel is going to get end users puzzled because they already >> have strong expectations from years of experience with the defaults. >> Easing the pain of transitioning from one release to another should be a >> important goal. > > 'No change' is obviously not the right answer to 'pain of > transitioning'. If we were taking upgrades seriously, then preupgrade > would receive enough attention to handle transitioning of user settings. > But that is not the case. > I've never seen any bug report or rfe about this feature. And I'm not sure preupgrade would do it since migrating the user's settings can't really happen until AFTER the upgrade completes. Maybe you don't mean preupgrade, maybe you mean anaconda or firstboot? -sv From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 17:08:56 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:08:56 -0400 Subject: Padding 10 in gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <4ADDED92.8050500@kanarip.com> References: <1255950939.2799.17.camel@localhost> <1255955788.1740.1.camel@planemask> <4ADDED92.8050500@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1256058536.1803.54.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 19:04 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > On 10/19/2009 02:36 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Mon, 2009-10-19 at 15:15 +0400, Alexey Torkhov wrote: > >> Hi. > >> > >> I???m wondering why was padding 10 added to default gnome-panel > >> configuration? My panel at 1280x1024 with bunch of elements has now > >> difficulties to fit them all. And at smaller resolutions, for example, > >> at netbooks that wouldn???t be useful at all. > > > > > > The padding was added because it makes things look less crammed > > together. > > Wow. FWIW, I think it sucks. In any case padding 10 is far too large as > I can fit an icon in between every other icon -not to mention stuff not > fitting in the screen's width. I didn't know our panel would shrink down to a height of 10. But be that as it may, to make a system-wide gconf setting change, do gconftool-2 --direct \ --config-source =xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.system \ --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/top_panel/padding 0 and so on. From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 17:12:21 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:12:21 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 12:58 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > I've personally seen a number of people new to the system do it, and > > Bryan Clark (former GNOME interaction designer) mentioned it as a > > problem he saw with the layout. > > Folks coming from Windows are accustomed to the lower left screen area > target bringing up the 'Start' menu, and I have witnessed skilled > Windows users trying to use Fedora specifically, assuming the button > would bring up a 'Start' menu-like UI, and instead getting confused when > instead all their windows disappeared. Sounds reasonable. > I'd rather not make any remarks on the timing of the change, though. The timing and lack of notice is the more important issue, here - the fact that it doesn't seem like a really vital change is more an aggravating factor in the lateness of the action. As a poster in the forum discussion put it: This seems to be a major change to gnome as it has been the same since FC3. My concerns are; 1. Is he distingisuting between a fix for current and new devl in rahide that is frozen from changes? 2. Why and for what reasons were the desktop show and a reduction of workspaces done? Was there any discussion or even a warning somewhare? destop list is not where rawhide users would be looking for changes in post beta cycle. Which is very close to what was said on this list, despite coming from an entirely separate discussion which was at the time unaware of these threads. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 17:19:25 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:19:25 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 12:13 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Last minute is hardly accurate when we still have 4 weeks to go to the > actual release. Thats 1/6 of the entire devel cycle. Small point of fact. It's 4 weeks until the release date. We have to have things composed and staged to mirrors nearly a week prior to that, and thus in RC stage a few days before that. You most certainly do not have 4 weeks of bugfixing left. I'd prefer all changes are done by Nov 10th so that we can enter the RC stage and only pick up changes that would prevent the release of Fedora 12. Fedora 12 was a compressed release, we knew that creating the schedule and going into the release. That means we have to cut some corners and make some sacrifices in order to get back to our May day / Halloween schedule. Now if we want to change that from a 6 month dirge to something more stretched out, I would welcome that, in addition to the other changes we are making to maximize both development time and polish time. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 17:16:54 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:46:54 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256057898.1803.50.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDE98D.6090705@fedoraproject.org> <1256057898.1803.50.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDF086.60103@fedoraproject.org> On 10/20/2009 10:28 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Then we need a longer release cycle. After feature freeze, add a polish > period, followed by a string and documentation freeze. Seriously, do you > think we have been doing nothing all summer only to sneak this stuff in > late behind your back ?! No. I did not say or imply that. I know the team is busy and I appreciate all the work that is being done but if you want help, you can ask for it. I can volunteer (and have already volunteered before) to do atleast some of the simple updates that happens on desktop components all the time and let you folks concentrate on some of the other changes including "polish". Some of the problems are because there is no effort in growing the community of people involved in Fedora who can and will help you and share the burden of keeping the desktop related packages updated in Fedora leaving you to focus on other important things. There are good examples of teams doing that. FESCo, KDE SIG etc as examples. They announce meetings with detailed agenda ahead of time, discuss changes openly in IRC and I can look up the details of who made the changes and why. If you seriously want a longer release cycle, talk to FESCo about that. Even without a longer release cycle, I think making such changes post-beta is a bad idea and you could very well avoid that. > 'No change' is obviously not the right answer to 'pain of > transitioning'. If we were taking upgrades seriously, then preupgrade > would receive enough attention to handle transitioning of user settings. > But that is not the case. Don't know how preupgrade will really help here but I am sure Will Woods, Seth Vidal et all would appreciate more help. > I think this dispute mostly comes down to difference of perspective: We > want to make the Fedora Desktop better, so that it can attract new users > (currently, they all go somewhere else). You are concerned about users > who have stuck with Fedora throughout the years and have gotten used to > all the crap and unpolished stuff we have been putting out... I don't think it is merely a different perspective but yes, I do care about the current users as well or atleast I am not interested in pissing them all off. I think if you believe you have put out crap then you should take sometime to explain why the current changes are better before doing them. How do I know I am not just getting more crap pushed out at me post-beta release? The change by itself doesn't bother me as much as the method and timing of it. Rahul From johannbg at hi.is Tue Oct 20 17:20:50 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?UTF-8?B?IkrDs2hhbm4gQi4gR3XDsG11bmRzc29uIg==?=) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:20:50 +0000 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDF172.8060909@hi.is> On 10/20/2009 04:13 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 21:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> On 10/20/2009 09:03 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> > What users ? There are no F12 users at this point. What we have right > now are testers, and I appreciate their feedback, but I judge it based > on the knowledge that most people have an initial negative reaction to > _any_ change. > Well my feed back to removing the show desktop is a no no.. Regarding changing the default number of workspaces I would say either remove workspaces altogether and let the end user add it if he will be using more then one workspace and at the same time he can configure how many workspace he thinks/knows he will be using or keep current workspaces as is. Am a bit more worried about the panels looks like we have not been testing them very well and or provide feed back.. Btw these changes only affect fresh installations right? End users who have spent hours, day's even last 6 month to configured their Gnome desktop the way they want, their configuration wont get overwritten during upgrade? If it does what exactly gets overwritten during upgrades ( settings/configurations )? JBG -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: johannbg.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 372 bytes Desc: not available URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 17:23:30 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 12:13 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> Last minute is hardly accurate when we still have 4 weeks to go to the >> actual release. Thats 1/6 of the entire devel cycle. > > Small point of fact. It's 4 weeks until the release date. We have to > have things composed and staged to mirrors nearly a week prior to that, > and thus in RC stage a few days before that. You most certainly do not > have 4 weeks of bugfixing left. I'd prefer all changes are done by Nov > 10th so that we can enter the RC stage and only pick up changes that > would prevent the release of Fedora 12. > > Fedora 12 was a compressed release, we knew that creating the schedule > and going into the release. That means we have to cut some corners and > make some sacrifices in order to get back to our May day / Halloween > schedule. > > Now if we want to change that from a 6 month dirge to something more > stretched out, I would welcome that, in addition to the other changes we > are making to maximize both development time and polish time. > We could try a 9-month release schedule like we did with FC5. I seem to recall that ended in tears, though. -sv From stickster at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 17:28:10 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:28:10 -0400 Subject: Recent changes to gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <1256052586.1803.29.camel@planemask> References: <1256051240.2314.240.camel@adam.local.net> <20091020152351.GC32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256052586.1803.29.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <20091020172810.GO933@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:29:46AM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 11:23 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) said: > > > there's concern that this kind of highly-visible behaviour change > > > shouldn't be introduced this late in the cycle. When I talked to > > > Matthias on IRC he seemed to think the changes to remove the 'show > > > desktop' button and reduce the default number of workspaces from 4 to 2 > > > should affect only new users, but the forum discussion seems to indicate > > > they actually affect existing users too. Is this considered a bug? > > > > I can confirm that the changes do not affect the existing user on my > > laptop. > > 'It depends'. The change is to the default value of some GConf settings. > So if you have tweaked the value before, you won't be affected by > changes to the default. If you haven't, you will be. Right. This is why it affected the brand new user on one of my systems, but not the user profile I'm currently on. Paul (Who will add more in another of these threads) From stickster at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 17:29:32 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:29:32 -0400 Subject: Recent changes to gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <4ADDDCA4.5000904@redhat.com> References: <1256051240.2314.240.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDDCA4.5000904@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091020172932.GP933@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 08:52:04AM -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Adam Williamson said the following on 10/20/2009 08:07 AM Pacific Time: > >Hi, guys. This is a reply to the 'Some recent changes' thread, but I > >wasn't subscribed at that time so can't reply to it directly. > > > >Echoing the concerns raised by J?hann Gu?mundsson, I wanted to pass on > >some discussion of these changes from the forums: > > > >http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=232166 > > > >there's concern that this kind of highly-visible behaviour change > >shouldn't be introduced this late in the cycle. When I talked to > >Matthias on IRC he seemed to think the changes to remove the 'show > >desktop' button and reduce the default number of workspaces from 4 to 2 > >should affect only new users, but the forum discussion seems to indicate > >they actually affect existing users too. Is this considered a bug? > > > > I would still like to understand better how these decisions are > being made. Is there a desktop meeting or SIG that decides these > things? Do we just take whatever the defaults are from Gnome > upstream? I also would like an answer to John's question, which is an honest one. Matthias already indicated that the changes made in the panel are particular to our package, and not part of upstream. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 17:30:22 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:30:22 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256059822.1803.57.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 13:23 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote: > We could try a 9-month release schedule like we did with FC5. I seem to > recall that ended in tears, though. > Just stretching things out is not going to help obviously, because people would do more feature development. As I said, to make a difference, you have to specifically stretch the non-feature-development phases to make a difference. Or calm things down far enough in rawhide that the feature-development phase is not a total loss in terms of having a usable and testable system. I hope that the various rawhide changes that are underway are going to get some results in that direction next cycle. From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 17:33:08 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:33:08 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDF172.8060909@hi.is> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <4ADDF172.8060909@hi.is> Message-ID: <1256059988.2314.257.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 17:20 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: > Btw these changes only affect fresh installations right? > > End users who have spent hours, day's even last 6 month to configured > their Gnome desktop the way they want, their configuration wont get > overwritten during upgrade? > > If it does what exactly gets overwritten during upgrades ( > settings/configurations )? That was mentioned earlier in the thread. The answer is 'it depends'. The change will affect existing user accounts if they're still just using the system-wide defaults - i.e. if the desired configuration hasn't been explicitly set in their own gconf settings somehow. I'm not sure exactly which operations would cause these particular settings ('show desktop icon presence' and 'number of workspaces') to be explicitly written to a user's gconf configuration. Obviously changing them would, but I'm not sure if - say - you make some _other_ configuration change to your panel but don't explicitly do anything about _these_ settings, they would be written in there. Matthias may be able to expand on that. But yes, those two changes are certainly going to affect some existing user accounts. The padding changes will affect everyone, AIUI. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 17:33:32 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:33:32 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDF172.8060909@hi.is> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <4ADDF172.8060909@hi.is> Message-ID: <1256060012.1803.61.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 17:20 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: > > Btw these changes only affect fresh installations right? > > End users who have spent hours, day's even last 6 month to configured > their Gnome desktop the way they want, their configuration wont get > overwritten during upgrade? > > If it does what exactly gets overwritten during upgrades ( > settings/configurations )? As I said upthread, defaults are overwritten by package updates. If you have never changed anything on your desktop, you will receive the changed defaults. If you have spent hours customizing every aspect of your desktop, those changes are in your personal GConf database and will not be overwritten by a package update. The situation is a bit different for the padding changes, since we have added new GConf keys here that did not exist before. Therefore, nobody has an explict value of 0 in their personal GConf database, and everybody will get the padding. From duffy at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 17:31:25 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:31:25 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> On 10/20/2009 01:12 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > The timing and lack of notice is the more important issue, here - the > fact that it doesn't seem like a really vital change is more an > aggravating factor in the lateness of the action. > > As a poster in the forum discussion put it: > > This seems to be a major change to gnome as it has been the same since > FC3. To be fair: - It is an improvement. It does open Fedora up to a wider body of desktop users. - It shouldn't affect current users. Even if the button disappears on them, there is a straightforward & easily discoverable GUI way to add it back, and that only needs to happen one time. - For the developers involved, it is *not* major change - it's really more of a decision or call, not development effort involved. You and Rahul are coming from the users' POV, though - it is likely perceived a major change to them. Small effort, big impact. This has been the shortest Fedora release cycle yet, hasn't it? I can relate to trying to get as much polish as possible with what time is left with the major features under folks' belts. I know the schedule is important, but more times than not in the various projects I've worked on, it's the small usability tweaks that get dropped, the schedule is used as the justification, and it is a really disappointing loss of an opportunity to make a big positive impact. Sometimes, also, these kinds of tweaks do need to be made towards the end part of the implementation cycle as sometimes initial designs for features evolve between initial requirements, spec, and implementation - usability tweaks you would have proposed early on aren't always applicable anymore. Moving forward, for F13, could we propose a feature called 'small effort / big impact polish'? We could brainstorm early on these sorts of changes we might make to the desktop default configuration and enumerate them on the wiki? Maybe if they are clearly communicated up front using the Features page, at the beginning of the cycle, folks could get more used to the idea / know its coming with a little less stress / perceived risk. The 'implementation' work for this 'feature' during the cycle would be less actual development and more doing any research / comparative studies / usability testing needed to help make a call on them. In short, I don't want us to lose out on big impact polish changes, but I also don't think the ends always justify the means. I do understand the concern that discussing these sorts of changes openly will turn into a useless flame-fest, but if we can apply just a little bit of structure to that (maybe a designated feedback period is scheduled into the f13 feature, for example) the feared flame-fest could be avoided. ~m From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 17:35:57 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:35:57 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256059822.1803.57.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256059822.1803.57.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256060157.2314.260.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 13:30 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 13:23 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > We could try a 9-month release schedule like we did with FC5. I seem to > > recall that ended in tears, though. > Just stretching things out is not going to help obviously, because > people would do more feature development. As I said, to make a > difference, you have to specifically stretch the non-feature-development > phases to make a difference. Or calm things down far enough in rawhide > that the feature-development phase is not a total loss in terms of > having a usable and testable system. I hope that the various rawhide > changes that are underway are going to get some results in that > direction next cycle. I guess I'm not yet convinced that these changes couldn't have been introduced earlier. is there a specific reason why you could not have made these exact changes a month ago? For me at least, the 'feature-development phase' is not a total loss. I've been running Rawhide exclusively on this system (my main work system, I use it for almost everything) since March, all the way through the F12 cycle. I was able to do so without much trouble. If these changes had been introduced earlier, I at least would have noticed and probably flagged them up for release notes, and I know there are others who run Rawhide as I do. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 17:47:08 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:47:08 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 13:31 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Moving forward, for F13, could we propose a feature called 'small effort > / big impact polish'? We could brainstorm early on these sorts of > changes we might make to the desktop default configuration and enumerate > them on the wiki? Maybe if they are clearly communicated up front using > the Features page, at the beginning of the cycle, folks could get more > used to the idea / know its coming with a little less stress / perceived > risk. The 'implementation' work for this 'feature' during the cycle > would be less actual development and more doing any research / > comparative studies / usability testing needed to help make a call on them. > > In short, I don't want us to lose out on big impact polish changes, but > I also don't think the ends always justify the means. I do understand > the concern that discussing these sorts of changes openly will turn into > a useless flame-fest, but if we can apply just a little bit of structure > to that (maybe a designated feedback period is scheduled into the f13 > feature, for example) the feared flame-fest could be avoided. I'm not sure it needs to be that, um, carefully engineered :) just making the changes a bit earlier in the cycle and explaining them (with rationale) on this list or in a planet-carried blog post would be fine, I think. Of course, if there's enthusiasm behind doing it in that structured way, that's great too. But I don't think it's _required_. but for this release we _did_ have the Fit and Finish project, this would have seemed to fit perfectly in with that agenda, and that was mostly active much earlier in the release cycle, so again I just can't quite see why Matthias seems to be saying it wasn't possible to make these changes earlier in the cycle. I just genuinely can't see why that's the case. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From johannbg at hi.is Tue Oct 20 17:54:31 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?UTF-8?B?IkrDs2hhbm4gQi4gR3XDsG11bmRzc29uIg==?=) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:54:31 +0000 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256060012.1803.61.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <4ADDF172.8060909@hi.is> <1256060012.1803.61.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDF957.1070800@hi.is> On 10/20/2009 05:33 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > As I said upthread, defaults are overwritten by package updates. > > If you have never changed anything on your desktop, you will receive the > changed defaults. If you have spent hours customizing every aspect of > your desktop, those changes are in your personal GConf database and will > not be overwritten by a package update. > > The situation is a bit different for the padding changes, since we have > added new GConf keys here that did not exist before. Therefore, nobody > has an explict value of 0 in their personal GConf database, and > everybody will get the padding. > Does there exist an export/import tool for gconf database so that users that would want to keep the old/their settings can use to export them then just simply import it after upgrade/fresh install. That would keep them happy and you guy's could introduce new changes targeted at new to linux audience with less hassle.. If such an tool does not exists what's the recommended way of backing up system wide/personal gconf databases so we can document that somewhere.. JBG -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: johannbg.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 372 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 17:53:35 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:23:35 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4ADDF91F.3010101@fedoraproject.org> On 10/20/2009 11:01 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > I know the schedule is important, but more times than not in the various > projects I've worked on, it's the small usability tweaks that get > dropped, the schedule is used as the justification, and it is a really > disappointing loss of an opportunity to make a big positive impact. Desktop UI changes are a bit different in terms of user expectations. Even a new background tends to get lots of feedback but things like panel and notification theme changes would certainly evoke strong reactions. Even a change for the better will be resisted. If you have had a bad default for a long time and you know it was a bad default earlier than last week, then it could have changed earlier in the release cycle. There was even a explicit "fit and finish" effort earlier where such changes could have been made. Blog about it. I do understand > the concern that discussing these sorts of changes openly will turn into > a useless flame-fest, but if we can apply just a little bit of structure > to that (maybe a designated feedback period is scheduled into the f13 > feature, for example) the feared flame-fest could be avoided. The current method seems to be just avoiding any discussions at all *before* making the change. That clearly cannot continue to be the right thing to do. What you suggest would certainly be a big improvement. Rahul From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 17:59:09 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:59:09 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <1256047589.1812.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADAFA3B.8030504@kanarip.com> <1256047589.1812.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4ADDFA6D.8090303@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 04:06 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 13:21 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >> On 10/17/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: >>> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 09:49 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>>> To help me understand this better, can you give me a example? Let's say >>>> I want to tweak PackageKit's policy to not ask for root password even >>>> when untrusted packages are being installed, >>> >>> (this is not a good idea but let's ignore that for the time being) >>> >> >> Actually you're not in a position to determine whether this is or is not >> a good idea. > > Actually I'm uniquely qualified to make statements like that since I > wrote the mechanism (e.g. PolicyKit) allowing people to aim for their > foot and blow their whole leg off. > > (Allowing people to hang themselves (or shoot their leg or foot off or > whatever) is of course not the goal of PolicyKit... but since PolicyKit > is a security-mechanism it does allow people to do such things even if > they are crazy.) > > Mind you, not only am I qualified to make such statements, it's my > goddamn responsibility, as the author of the software, to tell people > "don't do that, it's a root-exploit in the making" - especially if it's > on a public mailing list where authors of "helpful" guides a'la "How to > make Fedora Work" recipes etc. will find the discussion via Google and > other search engines. > Good god... So this is how you think you can determine whether allowing users to install unsigned packages is a good idea or not, better then anyone else can? I'm doubting whether you've ever administered some real-life desktop systems FWIW, I love PolicyKit for giving me more granular control (potentially) over what users can do; I wouldn't want them to remove my configuration management packages for example, but sudo yum privileges often extend too much beyond the boundaries of what is acceptable delegation. That is, in most of the situations where I manage desktop systems. -- Jeroen From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 17:58:26 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:58:26 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 10:47 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > so again I just can't > quite see why Matthias seems to be saying it wasn't possible to make > these changes earlier in the cycle. I just genuinely can't see why > that's the case. It did not happen earlier for the mere reason that none of us was in fulltime polish mode back then, so nobody took the time to sit down and look at the panel configuration and consider possible improvements back then. From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 18:05:47 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:05:47 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256061947.2314.267.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 13:58 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 10:47 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > so again I just can't > > quite see why Matthias seems to be saying it wasn't possible to make > > these changes earlier in the cycle. I just genuinely can't see why > > that's the case. > > It did not happen earlier for the mere reason that none of us was in > fulltime polish mode back then, so nobody took the time to sit down and > look at the panel configuration and consider possible improvements back > then. Ah - so it's a 'did not', not a 'could not'. I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, and Jesse will correct me if I'm wrong, but I really think the development schedule is not intended to work this way. The post-beta phase is for fixing critical bugs - as the Beta release announcement put it, "Only critical bug fixes will be pushed as updates leading up to the general release of Fedora 12, scheduled to be released in mid-November" - not for 'polish' as defined in this thread. That kind of change is intended to happen earlier in the cycle, for all the reasons discussed in this thread. So right now, the process of the desktop team does not seem to sync up exactly with the stated project release schedule... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 18:08:33 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:08:33 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 02:54 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Since some folks have wondered, here is a list of some recent changes we > have done to the panel configuration in the desktop spin: > > - Gnote has been moved to the left, with the other launchers, the user > switcher has been moved to the far right and the show desktop button has > been removed. > > - We have added padding between objects on the panel. If you don't like > this for some reason, you can remove it by > gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/top_panel/padding 0 > gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/bottom_panel/padding 0 > > - We have added padding between status icons in the notification area. > If you like your icons close to each other, use > gconftool-2 --type int --set /apps/panel/applets/systray/prefs/padding 0 > Not that I'm asking you to change anything of this back, you can knock yourself out all you want. I don't like these changes. I've changed them back with the commands you've given me. I'll need to change them everywhere I go, and everywhere I manage desktop systems. Again, I don't like these changes. Next time, I might just re-consider using KDE (and have my users use KDE as well, while I'm at it). -- Jeroen From notting at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 18:11:14 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:11:14 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip at kanarip.com) said: > Next time, I might just re-consider using KDE (and have my users use > KDE as well, while I'm at it). GNOME adds a configuration setting that wasn't there before, user threatens to go to KDE. There's a first for everything! Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 18:13:14 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:13:14 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 14:11 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip at kanarip.com) said: > > Next time, I might just re-consider using KDE (and have my users use > > KDE as well, while I'm at it). > > GNOME adds a configuration setting that wasn't there before, user threatens > to go to KDE. There's a first for everything! We can't win... From notting at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 18:17:04 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:17:04 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256061947.2314.267.camel@adam.local.net> References: <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> <1256061947.2314.267.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <20091020181704.GB2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) said: > Ah - so it's a 'did not', not a 'could not'. > > I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, and Jesse will correct me if > I'm wrong, but I really think the development schedule is not intended > to work this way. The post-beta phase is for fixing critical bugs - as > the Beta release announcement put it, "Only critical bug fixes will be > pushed as updates leading up to the general release of Fedora 12, > scheduled to be released in mid-November" - not for 'polish' as defined > in this thread. Given that non-critical-path packages are mentioned as not receiving verification before tagging, I think that's a bit disingenous. (Yes, we have conflicting docs.) Bill From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 18:19:05 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:19:05 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADDFF19.8020600@redhat.com> Matthias Clasen said the following on 10/20/2009 10:58 AM Pacific Time: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 10:47 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> so again I just can't >> quite see why Matthias seems to be saying it wasn't possible to make >> these changes earlier in the cycle. I just genuinely can't see why >> that's the case. > > It did not happen earlier for the mere reason that none of us was in > fulltime polish mode back then, so nobody took the time to sit down and > look at the panel configuration and consider possible improvements back > then. > Who is "us"? Where does the desktop team, SIG, or whoever "us" is discuss and decide things like this? What meetings or other gatherings can concerned community members attend in the future to participate in these decisions? I really do appreciate the fact that it was announced what was decided to the list, but I am having a hard time seeing how other people can be part of the decision process in the future. This is particularly important and potentially troubling if the Desktop LiveCD will be Fedora's default offering on the download page, but yet the ability to participate in that process is unclear. I'm not advocating that every decision that the "desktop people" (I still don't know what to call you :-) must have feedback and input from everyone. I am advocating that just like the Fedora Board and other bodies that make decisions in Fedora, the process is understood and there is a pathway to becoming a decision maker or participating in the process--whether it be running for election or becoming a regular participant in the meetings that are held. Am I coming at this the wrong way? Is simply up to the package maintainer to make decisions like this on their own? I could see that as a possible valid argument, but would also wonder if that is best way to decide things like this. Thanks, John From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 18:31:21 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:31:21 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDF957.1070800@hi.is> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <4ADDF172.8060909@hi.is> <1256060012.1803.61.camel@planemask> <4ADDF957.1070800@hi.is> Message-ID: <1256063481.1803.74.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 17:54 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: > On 10/20/2009 05:33 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > As I said upthread, defaults are overwritten by package updates. > > > > If you have never changed anything on your desktop, you will receive the > > changed defaults. If you have spent hours customizing every aspect of > > your desktop, those changes are in your personal GConf database and will > > not be overwritten by a package update. > > > > The situation is a bit different for the padding changes, since we have > > added new GConf keys here that did not exist before. Therefore, nobody > > has an explict value of 0 in their personal GConf database, and > > everybody will get the padding. > > > > Does there exist an export/import tool for gconf database so that users > that would want to keep the old/their settings can use to export them > then just simply import it after upgrade/fresh install. That would keep > them happy and you guy's could introduce new changes targeted at new to > linux audience with less hassle.. > > If such an tool does not exists what's the recommended way of backing up > system wide/personal gconf databases so we can document that somewhere.. I recommend gconftool-2 --help-load. It is unfortunate that these options are not documented in the man page. From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 18:33:32 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:33:32 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDFF19.8020600@redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> <4ADDFF19.8020600@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256063612.1803.76.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 11:19 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Matthias Clasen said the following on 10/20/2009 10:58 AM Pacific Time: > > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 10:47 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > >> so again I just can't > >> quite see why Matthias seems to be saying it wasn't possible to make > >> these changes earlier in the cycle. I just genuinely can't see why > >> that's the case. > > > > It did not happen earlier for the mere reason that none of us was in > > fulltime polish mode back then, so nobody took the time to sit down and > > look at the panel configuration and consider possible improvements back > > then. > > > > Who is "us"? Where does the desktop team, SIG, or whoever "us" is > discuss and decide things like this? What meetings or other gatherings > can concerned community members attend in the future to participate in > these decisions? http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Desktop This page is somewhat dated, but still pretty accurate wrt. to who is 'we' and where you can meet 'us' and get involved. From naheemzaffar at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 18:40:22 2009 From: naheemzaffar at gmail.com (Naheem Zaffar) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:40:22 +0100 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <4ADDFA6D.8090303@kanarip.com> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADAFA3B.8030504@kanarip.com> <1256047589.1812.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADDFA6D.8090303@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <3adc77210910201140k75e6e861wb568a7cc78ad3278@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/20 Jeroen van Meeuwen > I wouldn't want them to remove my configuration management packages for > example, but sudo yum privileges often extend too much beyond the boundaries > of what is acceptable delegation. That is, in most of the situations where I > manage desktop systems. > I think even this can be lived with as long as it does not turn into a Vista-esque UAC fest. There needs to be a way to remember trust given withpout having to resort to manually adding/editing config files - they may be useful/the best solution in an enterprise/other controlled environment, but that is not the case on a home desktop system. A simple tick box "remember this action" like there was before would IMO fix many of these annoyances without giving the full GUI for each authorisation that existed before. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From notting at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 18:42:36 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:42:36 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDFF19.8020600@redhat.com> References: <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> <4ADDFF19.8020600@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091020184235.GC2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> John Poelstra (poelstra at redhat.com) said: > Who is "us"? Where does the desktop team, SIG, or whoever "us" is > discuss and decide things like this? What meetings or other > gatherings can concerned community members attend in the future to > participate in these decisions? AFAIK, much like the XFCE, LXDE, and similar sigs, there are not formal meetings, or heirarchy. Show up and be interested! (Here, #fedora-devel, #fedora-desktop on gimpnet.) Bill From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 18:45:13 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:45:13 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020181704.GB2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> <1256061947.2314.267.camel@adam.local.net> <20091020181704.GB2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256064313.2314.272.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 14:17 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) said: > > Ah - so it's a 'did not', not a 'could not'. > > > > I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, and Jesse will correct me if > > I'm wrong, but I really think the development schedule is not intended > > to work this way. The post-beta phase is for fixing critical bugs - as > > the Beta release announcement put it, "Only critical bug fixes will be > > pushed as updates leading up to the general release of Fedora 12, > > scheduled to be released in mid-November" - not for 'polish' as defined > > in this thread. > > Given that non-critical-path packages are mentioned as not receiving > verification before tagging, I think that's a bit disingenous. (Yes, > we have conflicting docs.) I see what you mean. However, I'd probably include changes to the default behaviour of our standard desktop when thinking about changes that should be considered 'critical path', even if GNOME isn't really in the critical path as currently defined. Not sure of a good way to codify this, though. We should probably be wary of 'critical path creep' :) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From stickster at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 18:48:03 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:48:03 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256054008.1803.38.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDBC7.1010906@redhat.com> <1256054008.1803.38.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <20091020184803.GQ933@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:53:28AM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 08:48 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > > Matthias Clasen said the following on 10/20/2009 08:33 AM Pacific Time: > > > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 08:06 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > > > > > >> I think removing the hide desktop button is a really bad change too. I > > >> also don't understand why these changes continue to pile on when we are > > >> way past past alpha and feature freeze. These do not seem like "bug > > >> fixes." Are more changes planned too? > > >> > > >> Is there a compelling reason (e.g. user interaction study, etc.) why > > >> this change is being made and why it has to be made now? > > > > > > This change has to be made now because we want F12 to be as polished as > > > it can be. Dropping dead and refraining from any further changes at beta > > > time might be comforting to rel-eng and qa, but it is not conductive to > > > getting the best release we can. > > > > > > I strongly deny that we have to provide a 'user interaction study' for > > > every change we make. > > > > > > > > > > Please quote the section above where I said you "have to provide a user > > interaction study." I still don't see the compelling reason for this > > change beyond that you thought it should happen. > > Right, you didn't actually say that. I just read it that way. Sorry. > > > > Is this an upstream decision or maybe you "are upstream"? I'm still > > trying to understand how all this works :) > > There is no upstream in the default panel configuration - this has > always been our own. Look for redhat-panel-default-setup.entries in our > gnome-panel package. So yes, this is just our effort to come up with the > best initial panel configuration for the desktop spin. In a previous email, I recall one member of the Desktop team writing that help from other people was needed and appreciated -- not in the sense of a design by committee, but in the sense of finding problems and testing changes. The current example seems like a very ineffective way of getting even that kind of help. I appreciate the effort to further improve the Desktop spin, but the timing of these changes really undercuts those earlier points. By making these changes post-Beta, we're eliminating a good bit of that potential testing. Mairin's post was enlightening for me, because she showed how the "Show Desktop" button was documented to cause problems. It would have helped to be able to tell people ahead of time in our many Beta announcements, "Here are some changes to defaults that some people will experience, and this is why they were made, in service of making a better user experience." I do appreciate the fact that Matthias went to the trouble of making some entries in the release notes to bring them up to date. I believe the Docs team should be able to get those changes into the final copy for F12 GA. And I completely understand that the code changes overall in the Desktop spin take a huge amount of time in the cycle. Many people, including me, do as much as possible to champion that work, and show how usable it makes the free software desktop today. And there isn't a huge amount of time left for polishing things at the last minute. That's even more true when that process also requires courteous (and downright necessary) heads-up for the very people who are doing testing, documentation, and triage. So how can we make this better in the future? Some ideas... * Keep a list of these small target issues somewhere, in BZ, the wiki, or whatever is the preferred, easy location where interested people can read it * We get together a few weeks before final freeze to see what is being contemplated for picking off the list * Someone from Fedora Marketing team (and that might even be me) makes a post about the possible changes, as a heads-up to the community, and writes up a wiki page showing experts how to reproduce old behaviors if they care; we link this in the notes. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 18:50:14 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:50:14 -0400 Subject: tooltip changes Message-ID: <1256064614.1803.81.camel@planemask> Just so nobody can say they have been surprised: I am working on a refresh of the tooltips in our default theme. Among the things that I am trying out are rounded corners and different color than the old-school yellow that we've been using ever since. The leading candidates for a replacement are a light gray or a light blue. I hope to have packages for this by tomorrow. Matthias From martin.sourada at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 18:52:40 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:52:40 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 14:13 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 14:11 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip at kanarip.com) said: > > > Next time, I might just re-consider using KDE (and have my users use > > > KDE as well, while I'm at it). > > > > GNOME adds a configuration setting that wasn't there before, user threatens > > to go to KDE. There's a first for everything! > > We can't win... > No, you certainly cannot if you keep on announcing the changes precisely at the time they are made, doing those highly late in the release cycle without any apparent "polish plan" being put together ahead. If you want to polish desktop, first outline what you feel is wrong, unpolished, crappy and how do you want to change that *and* discuss it with (usually development) community. If you have usability studies, include them as well in the proposal. *Then* do the changes. That's the way how every other teams in Fedora are working -- why do you need to work differently? I don't really mind very much that you do these kind of things late in the release cycle -- they could hardly break anything -- but they should be planned at the start of the release cycle *and* discussed with the community not just in your office. Fedora is done differently from Red Hat Linux. And to comment on the changes: I don't recall our default panel height setting, so correct me if I'm wrong, but subjectively speaking 10px padding for 22x22px big icons is a little bit too much, isn't it? Plus, it's a really big problem for small screens. Why different padding for notification icons and the rest? It's inconsistent. Where does the 10px value comes from? It's just that it's nice round number? Do *you* think it's the best value? What do others think about the value? (Yep, I think 0px might not be the best default, so I'm concerned only with the amount, not much with the change itself). Show desktop -- well, for some reason I keep it on my panel config, even though I don't use it. I've never hit it by mistake. But Mo provided quite a handful of reasons why it shouldn't be there by default, so I don't really have anything against this change. Two virtual desktops -- why 2? If you use virtual desktops, you're IMHO much more likely to use more then just two (I myself use six), if you don't use virtual desktops you don't care whether you have four or two... I really don't understand the reasons behind this, but well, since I already use something different from default, it's not affecting me. Notify icons sorting -- nice change. I'm only concerned whether they should not be aligned to the left (as the handle is left, so if we want to keep them on their place, they need to start filling from the left, and adding new icons to the right). Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote. Come to think of it, it would be even better if I could sort them myself and the applet would remember how I order them (perhaps a RFE within F13 scope?). Default location for time -- nice change, I think no one can have anything against it. It's an improvement in functionality and not a rather radical (or highly visible) change that would anger dozens of people (like the icons padding). Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From clarkbw at gnome.org Tue Oct 20 18:59:58 2009 From: clarkbw at gnome.org (Bryan Clark) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:59:58 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADE08AE.8030409@gnome.org> On 20/10/09 6:41 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 18:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> On 10/20/2009 06:24 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> >>> Since some folks have wondered, here is a list of some recent changes we >>> have done to the panel configuration in the desktop spin: >>> >>> - Gnote has been moved to the left, with the other launchers, the user >>> switcher has been moved to the far right and the show desktop button has >>> been removed. >>> >> Why did you remove the show desktop button? >> > Because 'where did all my windows suddenly disappear to ?' is a very > frightening question for people who are not aware what they just clicked > by accident. > > I wasn't a part of this change or the discussion around it, just offering some experience here. This button was a constant problem reported by new users. The placement seemed correct for GNOME and has been for a few years now, however for users transitioning from the windows world it was actually a horrible placement. Windows users thought the show desktop button looked like a "start button" equivalent and the icon is supposed to represent a "desktop". However instead of showing an applications menu it acts like it closes all the windows; even though it just minimizes them. In terms of usability for Windows users transitioning to GNOME this design was a disaster as this button as often one of their interactions. Even after using GNOME for a while we still got plenty of reports of people "losing all their windows" because that old habit of clicking on the bottom left icon came back to them. There are likely lots of possible resolutions to the problem other than removing it however removing it also seems like a reasonable avenue to me until the other issues are fixed as this is easily added back for those who miss it. ~ Bryan From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 18:57:31 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 00:27:31 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020184235.GC2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> <4ADDFF19.8020600@redhat.com> <20091020184235.GC2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4ADE081B.7060602@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 12:12 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > John Poelstra (poelstra at redhat.com) said: >> Who is "us"? Where does the desktop team, SIG, or whoever "us" is >> discuss and decide things like this? What meetings or other >> gatherings can concerned community members attend in the future to >> participate in these decisions? > > AFAIK, much like the XFCE, LXDE, and similar sigs, there are not formal > meetings, or heirarchy. Show up and be interested! (Here, #fedora-devel, > #fedora-desktop on gimpnet.) Unlike XFCE, LXDE etc which are just one or two people in Fedora, Desktop team is a lot many more people and has a much higher impact being the default download in Fedora. I don't think the comparison fits. Rahul From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Tue Oct 20 19:01:43 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:01:43 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256063612.1803.76.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> <4ADDFF19.8020600@redhat.com> <1256063612.1803.76.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256065303.10770.6.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 20.10.2009, 14:33 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 11:19 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > > > > Who is "us"? Where does the desktop team, SIG, or whoever "us" is > > discuss and decide things like this? What meetings or other gatherings > > can concerned community members attend in the future to participate in > > these decisions? John's Question still stands... > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Desktop > > This page is somewhat dated, but still pretty accurate wrt. to who is > 'we' and where you can meet 'us' and get involved. Ok, then please tell me how many members of the desktop SIG were involved in this decisions. I already asked that question when we talked about the new notification-theme, but got no reply from ether you or Jon. Is "you and Jon" also is the answer to this question? Regards, Christoph From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 19:01:55 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:01:55 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4ADE0923.2020202@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 08:11 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip at kanarip.com) said: >> Next time, I might just re-consider using KDE (and have my users use >> KDE as well, while I'm at it). > > GNOME adds a configuration setting that wasn't there before, user threatens > to go to KDE. There's a first for everything! > In fact, GNOME isn't doing any of this, and you should have said *change* rather then *add*. I see developments here I don't like, and I'm going to revert them. I'm saying you now it's a good thing there's options, there's no need to feel all kinds of surprised about any of that. -- Jeroen From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 19:04:24 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:04:24 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4ADE09B8.1000803@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 07:23 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Jesse Keating wrote: > >> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 12:13 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>> Last minute is hardly accurate when we still have 4 weeks to go to the >>> actual release. Thats 1/6 of the entire devel cycle. >> >> Small point of fact. It's 4 weeks until the release date. We have to >> have things composed and staged to mirrors nearly a week prior to that, >> and thus in RC stage a few days before that. You most certainly do not >> have 4 weeks of bugfixing left. I'd prefer all changes are done by Nov >> 10th so that we can enter the RC stage and only pick up changes that >> would prevent the release of Fedora 12. >> >> Fedora 12 was a compressed release, we knew that creating the schedule >> and going into the release. That means we have to cut some corners and >> make some sacrifices in order to get back to our May day / Halloween >> schedule. >> >> Now if we want to change that from a 6 month dirge to something more >> stretched out, I would welcome that, in addition to the other changes we >> are making to maximize both development time and polish time. >> > > We could try a 9-month release schedule like we did with FC5. I seem to > recall that ended in tears, though. > Nice one, would that also get us to a 19-month support cycle? ;-) -- Jeroen From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 19:09:29 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADE09B8.1000803@kanarip.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADE09B8.1000803@kanarip.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > On 10/20/2009 07:23 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Jesse Keating wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 12:13 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>>> Last minute is hardly accurate when we still have 4 weeks to go to the >>>> actual release. Thats 1/6 of the entire devel cycle. >>> >>> Small point of fact. It's 4 weeks until the release date. We have to >>> have things composed and staged to mirrors nearly a week prior to that, >>> and thus in RC stage a few days before that. You most certainly do not >>> have 4 weeks of bugfixing left. I'd prefer all changes are done by Nov >>> 10th so that we can enter the RC stage and only pick up changes that >>> would prevent the release of Fedora 12. >>> >>> Fedora 12 was a compressed release, we knew that creating the schedule >>> and going into the release. That means we have to cut some corners and >>> make some sacrifices in order to get back to our May day / Halloween >>> schedule. >>> >>> Now if we want to change that from a 6 month dirge to something more >>> stretched out, I would welcome that, in addition to the other changes we >>> are making to maximize both development time and polish time. >>> >> >> We could try a 9-month release schedule like we did with FC5. I seem to >> recall that ended in tears, though. >> > > Nice one, would that also get us to a 19-month support cycle? ;-) > :) You are a clever one! :) -sv From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 19:12:56 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:12:56 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <3adc77210910201140k75e6e861wb568a7cc78ad3278@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADAFA3B.8030504@kanarip.com> <1256047589.1812.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADDFA6D.8090303@kanarip.com> <3adc77210910201140k75e6e861wb568a7cc78ad3278@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADE0BB8.6020800@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 08:40 PM, Naheem Zaffar wrote: > 2009/10/20 Jeroen van Meeuwen > > > I wouldn't want them to remove my configuration management packages > for example, but sudo yum privileges often extend too much beyond > the boundaries of what is acceptable delegation. That is, in most of > the situations where I manage desktop systems. > > > I think even this can be lived with as long as it does not turn into a > Vista-esque UAC fest. There needs to be a way to remember trust given > withpout having to resort to manually adding/editing config files - they > may be useful/the best solution in an enterprise/other controlled > environment, but that is not the case on a home desktop system. > Sure enough it can be lived with, I haven't been doing anything else for a long time. Yet though, there is this magic gray boundary between what users can do on their own and what they need me and my colleagues for. Previously, making sure I wasn't bothered for foo I wanted the users to be able to do themselves, but staying on the safe side of giving them privileges caused me to need to step in, was a huge pain in the ass. Like I said, I love the more granular control a mechanism like PackageKit allows us to configure. > A simple tick box "remember this action" like there was before would IMO > fix many of these annoyances without giving the full GUI for each > authorisation that existed before. > I don't install desktop systems, nor do I ever sit behind a keyboard of one that I manage. We do it all remotely, and centralized. A "remember this action" when the user is asked for the root password (which not a single person knows) doesn't help. Hence we need to deploy policies if we wanted to use PolicyKit, and until we've figured out the exact semantics we're still using the old systems. We want to say "deny" or "allow", or "authenticate as a wheel(system)/sysadmin-local(ldap)/sysadmin-main(ldap) member" and then allow. -- Jeroen From notting at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 19:13:33 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:13:33 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Martin Sourada (martin.sourada at gmail.com) said: > No, you certainly cannot if you keep on announcing the changes precisely > at the time they are made, doing those highly late in the release cycle > without any apparent "polish plan" being put together ahead. If you want > to polish desktop, first outline what you feel is wrong, unpolished, > crappy and how do you want to change that *and* discuss it with (usually > development) community. If you have usability studies, include them as > well in the proposal. *Then* do the changes. That's the way how every > other teams in Fedora are working -- why do you need to work > differently? I don't really mind very much that you do these kind of > things late in the release cycle -- they could hardly break anything -- > but they should be planned at the start of the release cycle *and* > discussed with the community not just in your office. Fedora is done > differently from Red Hat Linux. I'm sorry, but this is getting completely ridiculous. "That's the way how every other team in Fedora is working"? Take for example the XFCE or LXDE sig. From a quick look over the wiki, they have no separate mailing lists, no meetings, and I cannot find their design discussions or announcements. Nor the kernel team; they do not have long public meetings discussing kernel config options, or which kernel versions are going where. Furthermore, On October 1, you said: "it would be nice if the code was included before [beta] and the intended change was announced and discussed much before that (ideally before feature freeze)" Now, you want: - first outline what you feel is wrong - then a proposal (with studies!) - all at the beginning of the cycle So, if that's done, where will you move the goalposts to next? Does the request need to be in triplicate? Could this have come earlier, and been communicated better? Yeah, I think so. But I'm really struggling to see why the change from: https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/7/74/Tours_Fedora11_010.png to http://notting.fedorapeople.org/Screenshot.png is really worth *this* much sturm und drang. Bill From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 19:17:53 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:17:53 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADE0923.2020202@kanarip.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE0923.2020202@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1256066273.2314.273.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 21:01 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > On 10/20/2009 08:11 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip at kanarip.com) said: > >> Next time, I might just re-consider using KDE (and have my users use > >> KDE as well, while I'm at it). > > > > GNOME adds a configuration setting that wasn't there before, user threatens > > to go to KDE. There's a first for everything! > In fact, GNOME isn't doing any of this, and you should have said > *change* rather then *add*. The padding changes were actually prompted by upstream GNOME bug reports and will go upstream, AIUI. Only the 'show desktop' button change and number of workspaces change are unique to Fedora. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Tue Oct 20 19:23:15 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:23:15 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADE081B.7060602@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> <1256060828.2314.265.camel@adam.local.net> <1256061506.1803.70.camel@planemask> <4ADDFF19.8020600@redhat.com> <20091020184235.GC2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE081B.7060602@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256066595.10770.24.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Mittwoch, den 21.10.2009, 00:27 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > On 10/21/2009 12:12 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > John Poelstra (poelstra at redhat.com) said: > >> Who is "us"? Where does the desktop team, SIG, or whoever "us" is > >> discuss and decide things like this? What meetings or other > >> gatherings can concerned community members attend in the future to > >> participate in these decisions? > > > > AFAIK, much like the XFCE, LXDE, and similar sigs, there are not formal > > meetings, or heirarchy. Show up and be interested! (Here, #fedora-devel, > > #fedora-desktop on gimpnet.) > > Unlike XFCE, LXDE etc which are just one or two people in Fedora, > Desktop team is a lot many more people and has a much higher impact > being the default download in Fedora. I don't think the comparison fits. +1, Rahul. Xfce has two maintainers (Kevin and me), LXDE only on (me). How many maintainers does the GNOME desktop have? Shouldn't these people be involved? And what about the users? GNOME has a much larger user base than any other DE in Fedora. How are they involved? When we make decisions about changes in Xfce, we usually make them in #fedora-devel. And here "we" means not only Kevin and me, but also Adam, Rahul and others. First we discuss the changes, then we gather feedback. I have a group of ~ 10 German Xfce users, some of them members of the SIG (Marcus M?ller, Matthias Summer), others are regular visitors of #fedora-de or fedoraforum.de, whom I ask for their thoughts. Kevin does similar at fedoraforum.org. When I have enough feedback, we get back together to make a final decision. I have to admit that this process could be more transparent to the people not involved, but I think it's open and democratic. Last bug not least: Unlike Gnome nether XFCE nor LXDE are Fedora's flagship products. Changes in GNOME impact not only more users but also the reputation of the Fedora Project. > Rahul Regards, Christoph From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 19:31:59 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:31:59 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256067119.2314.275.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:13 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > But I'm really struggling to see why the change from: > https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/7/74/Tours_Fedora11_010.png > to > http://notting.fedorapeople.org/Screenshot.png > > is really worth *this* much sturm und drang. It sticks out rather more obviously with more icons (which most people have, sadly; my one man Canute-like Panel Icons Are Evil crusade failed miserably) on a lower resolution. Not an uncommon setup. And it may look like a 'bug' to many, as it's an unexpected behaviour change away from a layout they found efficient (it's already been described as an 'issue' on both the forums and the -devel mailing list). -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From notting at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 19:35:36 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:35:36 -0400 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <4ADDFA6D.8090303@kanarip.com> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADAFA3B.8030504@kanarip.com> <1256047589.1812.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADDFA6D.8090303@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <20091020193535.GB3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip at kanarip.com) said: > Good god... So this is how you think you can determine whether > allowing users to install unsigned packages is a good idea or not, > better then anyone else can? I'm doubting whether you've ever > administered some real-life desktop systems Given that it essentially allows any user to root the box, yeah, I think it's a safe statement that it's a bad idea to grant that to users and not grant them other privleges. Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 19:35:41 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:35:41 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256066273.2314.273.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE0923.2020202@kanarip.com> <1256066273.2314.273.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1256067341.1803.84.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 12:17 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 21:01 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > > On 10/20/2009 08:11 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip at kanarip.com) said: > > >> Next time, I might just re-consider using KDE (and have my users use > > >> KDE as well, while I'm at it). > > > > > > GNOME adds a configuration setting that wasn't there before, user threatens > > > to go to KDE. There's a first for everything! > > > In fact, GNOME isn't doing any of this, and you should have said > > *change* rather then *add*. > > The padding changes were actually prompted by upstream GNOME bug reports > and will go upstream, AIUI. Only the 'show desktop' button change and > number of workspaces change are unique to Fedora. We send all of our patches upstream, as a matter of policy - unless they are really really Fedora specific. If and when they will be accepted upstream is a different question. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 19:39:35 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 01:09:35 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 12:43 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Take for example the XFCE or LXDE sig. From a quick look over the wiki, > they have no separate mailing lists, no meetings, and I cannot find their > design discussions or announcements. Nor the kernel team; they do not have > long public meetings discussing kernel config options, or which kernel > versions are going where. Like I already indicated Xfce or LXDE is just one or two people. The kernel team could be doing things better. If you want a good comparison on how to do it, how about looking at a SIG with similar number of people and a similar focus: Fedora KDE SIG. * A very active mailing list * Regular IRC meetings with agendas announced ahead of time * Full meeting logs and a clear decision making process * Summaries send to fedora-devel list They have been doing this for *years*. The KDE SIG has steadily grown over time while Desktop SIG has zero community members involved outside of the Red Hat desktop team and the meetings are internal ones. Do you believe that is a coincidence? I don't. > Could this have come earlier, and been communicated better? Yeah, I > think so. > > But I'm really struggling to see why the change from: > https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/7/74/Tours_Fedora11_010.png > to > http://notting.fedorapeople.org/Screenshot.png > > is really worth *this* much sturm und drang. It is more to do with the long history of similar actions. The end result might not be that obvious this time but the process is clearly flawed and desperately in need of change. Now, I do believe that desktop team members are very skilled developers with a brilliant vision on moving things forward but doesn't change the flaws. Rahul From johannbg at hi.is Tue Oct 20 19:44:29 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?UTF-8?B?IkrDs2hhbm4gQi4gR3XDsG11bmRzc29uIg==?=) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:44:29 +0000 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256063481.1803.74.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <4ADDF172.8060909@hi.is> <1256060012.1803.61.camel@planemask> <4ADDF957.1070800@hi.is> <1256063481.1803.74.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADE131D.1030707@hi.is> On 10/20/2009 06:31 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 17:54 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: > >> On 10/20/2009 05:33 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> >>> As I said upthread, defaults are overwritten by package updates. >>> >>> If you have never changed anything on your desktop, you will receive the >>> changed defaults. If you have spent hours customizing every aspect of >>> your desktop, those changes are in your personal GConf database and will >>> not be overwritten by a package update. >>> >>> The situation is a bit different for the padding changes, since we have >>> added new GConf keys here that did not exist before. Therefore, nobody >>> has an explict value of 0 in their personal GConf database, and >>> everybody will get the padding. >>> >>> >> Does there exist an export/import tool for gconf database so that users >> that would want to keep the old/their settings can use to export them >> then just simply import it after upgrade/fresh install. That would keep >> them happy and you guy's could introduce new changes targeted at new to >> linux audience with less hassle.. >> >> If such an tool does not exists what's the recommended way of backing up >> system wide/personal gconf databases so we can document that somewhere.. >> > I recommend gconftool-2 --help-load. > It is unfortunate that these options are not documented in the man page. > > Well it's more unfortunate that there is not export/import gui application that allows the novice end user to do this as painless as possible after all this is an "Desktop Environment" or that you could have simply outline the steps needed to this... Would you consider these would be adequate direction for a novice end user upgrading from a previous fedora/gnome release and or are there any additional steps needed for restore his desktop settings/experience as in the previous release. It's always good to take backup of gnome settings before upgrading to a newer Fedora-Gnome-Desktop release encase any changes has been made that does not float your boat. You can do so by simply open up a terminal and run.. [user at example ~]$gconftool-2 --dump / > gconf.backup.xml # To backup [user at example ~]$gconftool-2 --load gconf.backup.xml # To restore after upgrade.. JBG -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: johannbg.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 372 bytes Desc: not available URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 19:47:52 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:47:52 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256068072.2102.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:13 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > I'm sorry, but this is getting completely ridiculous. > > "That's the way how every other team in Fedora is working"? Ok, I might have been exaggerating; more rather I meant "every other team in Fedora I came directly in touch with". > > Take for example the XFCE or LXDE sig. From a quick look over the wiki, > they have no separate mailing lists, no meetings, and I cannot find their > design discussions or announcements. Nor the kernel team; they do not have > long public meetings discussing kernel config options, or which kernel > versions are going where. > If you want to compare yourself compare to the KDE sig, AFAIK XFCE and LXDE are one-man efforts and not one of our two most important (popular might be a better word) spins, and kernel is on a completely different level (even so they're less of a "black box" then you). > Furthermore, > > On October 1, you said: > "it would be nice if the code was included before [beta] and the intended > change was announced and discussed much before that (ideally before feature > freeze)" > > Now, you want: > - first outline what you feel is wrong > - then a proposal (with studies!) > - all at the beginning of the cycle > I see what you mean, but my opinions aren't set in stone and evolve. Yet I stand with the first quote as was more meant to the one or two specific changes you've made, but now you've come with something that sounds like a whole bigger project that aims on polishing Fedora Gnome Spin. That needs better coordination so that all the changes are consistent between themselves, people need to know what's the final goal and why are you doing the changes. You say you want Fedora Gnome Spins to be polished, and that in past releases it was crap. First tell me why it was crap, then tell me how do you think we should evolve from crap to polished, discuss it with community (e.g. design team or upstream opinion on design changes or usability questions might be good to have) and then start implementing the changes that fit within the big image. Of course, you need (at) least a whole release cycle for that, and that's why I'm suggesting you start with it at the start of the release cycle. Include studies if there have been done any (apparently there was one for the "show desktop" icon presence), I'm not suggesting you should do usability study for everything and a kitchen sink. > So, if that's done, where will you move the goalposts to next? Does > the request need to be in triplicate? > My goalposts won't go beyond starting the "polish the desktop" project at the start of a release cycle. > Could this have come earlier, and been communicated better? Yeah, I > think so. > > But I'm really struggling to see why the change from: > https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/7/74/Tours_Fedora11_010.png > to > http://notting.fedorapeople.org/Screenshot.png > > is really worth *this* much sturm und drang. > Well, apparently they are. As I implied (hopefully) in my previous post, I don't think they are worth *this* much themselves, but in the big picture it really feels like the Gnome Spin is being done behind closed doors by two or three people from Red Hat and that you are doing apparently related changes to the default desktop (in name of polishing) without anyone knowing what your final intention of what the polished state is is. Please take no offence, I'd just like more transparency and community involvement in how one of our most important spins are made. > Bill Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From notting at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 19:50:01 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:50:01 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > Take for example the XFCE or LXDE sig. From a quick look over the wiki, > > they have no separate mailing lists, no meetings, and I cannot find their > > design discussions or announcements. Nor the kernel team; they do not have > > long public meetings discussing kernel config options, or which kernel > > versions are going where. > > Like I already indicated Xfce or LXDE is just one or two people. Odd, the wiki page says 9 and 7 people, respectively. (The Desktop SIG page lists 11.) > The kernel team could be doing things better. And yet, you're not constantly badgering them. (Or the installer team, or...) That's what I'm talking about here - you and others are essentially holding the Desktop SIG to a standard, of your creation, that moves over time, that you don't actually hold anyone else to, including the SIGs you're actually a part of! I find that kind of hypocritical, toxic, behavior frustrating and silly. Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 19:52:34 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:52:34 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256068354.1803.86.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:50 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > That's what I'm talking about here - you and others are essentially holding > the Desktop SIG to a standard, of your creation, that moves over time, that > you don't actually hold anyone else to, including the SIGs you're actually > a part of! > > I find that kind of hypocritical, toxic, behavior frustrating and silly. Alternatively, we could take it as a sign the our stuff is the one people actually care about, because it is in they face unlike the kernel... From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 19:51:54 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 01:21:54 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4ADE14DA.20705@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 01:20 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Odd, the wiki page says 9 and 7 people, respectively. (The Desktop SIG > page lists 11.) Are you seriously suggesting that they are on the same level? Any random person can add themselves to the wiki page. In reality, LXDE packages are maintained by ONE person. Xfce packages are maintained by TWO people and one more person who maintains the Live CD/Spin. That's it. >> The kernel team could be doing things better. > > And yet, you're not constantly badgering them. (Or the installer team, > or...) > > That's what I'm talking about here - you and others are essentially holding > the Desktop SIG to a standard, of your creation, that moves over time, that > you don't actually hold anyone else to, including the SIGs you're actually > a part of! > > I find that kind of hypocritical, toxic, behavior frustrating and silly. I care about the desktop a LOT more than the kernel or installer. How is the hypocritical? Rahul From awilliam at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 20:00:47 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:00:47 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256068354.1803.86.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256068354.1803.86.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256068847.2314.278.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:52 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:50 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > > That's what I'm talking about here - you and others are essentially holding > > the Desktop SIG to a standard, of your creation, that moves over time, that > > you don't actually hold anyone else to, including the SIGs you're actually > > a part of! > > > > I find that kind of hypocritical, toxic, behavior frustrating and silly. > > Alternatively, we could take it as a sign the our stuff is the one > people actually care about, because it is in they face unlike the > kernel... I think it's more accurate to say that it's rare for any particular kernel change to affect more than a few people in a way they actually notice as a jarring change, while it's much more common for changes to the behaviour or appearance of the desktop used by the majority of our users to have that effect. Just the different nature of the components. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From notting at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 20:01:31 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:01:31 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADE14DA.20705@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE14DA.20705@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20091020200130.GE3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > Odd, the wiki page says 9 and 7 people, respectively. (The Desktop SIG > > page lists 11.) > > Are you seriously suggesting that they are on the same level? No, I'm saying that when the XFCE and LXDE SIGs say they have 7-10 members each, how am I supposed to know that they actually have only one or two active development members, as you state? I'm not psychic. > >> The kernel team could be doing things better. > > > > And yet, you're not constantly badgering them. (Or the installer team, > > or...) > > > > That's what I'm talking about here - you and others are essentially holding > > the Desktop SIG to a standard, of your creation, that moves over time, that > > you don't actually hold anyone else to, including the SIGs you're actually > > a part of! > > > > I find that kind of hypocritical, toxic, behavior frustrating and silly. > > I care about the desktop a LOT more than the kernel or installer. How is > the hypocritical? You stated that a group is 'clearly flawed and desperately in need of change' when they're not following a process that you don't follow in your own SIGs. I can't read that as anything other than hypocritical. If you care about it a lot more, how about working to enact some of these changes (summaries to fedora-devel-list, for example), rather than constantly complaining? Bill From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 20:11:39 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:11:39 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256063481.1803.74.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <4ADDF172.8060909@hi.is> <1256060012.1803.61.camel@planemask> <4ADDF957.1070800@hi.is> <1256063481.1803.74.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADE197B.3050008@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 08:31 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 17:54 +0000, "J??hann B. Gu??mundsson" wrote: >> Does there exist an export/import tool for gconf database so that users >> that would want to keep the old/their settings can use to export them >> then just simply import it after upgrade/fresh install. That would keep >> them happy and you guy's could introduce new changes targeted at new to >> linux audience with less hassle.. >> >> If such an tool does not exists what's the recommended way of backing up >> system wide/personal gconf databases so we can document that somewhere.. > > I recommend gconftool-2 --help-load. > It is unfortunate that these options are not documented in the man page. > Is there a configuration utility to see what configuration settings are available et al, and maybe configure them? -- Jeroen From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Tue Oct 20 20:16:18 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:16:18 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256069778.10770.28.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 20.10.2009, 14:11 -0400 schrieb Bill Nottingham: > Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip at kanarip.com) said: > > Next time, I might just re-consider using KDE (and have my users use > > KDE as well, while I'm at it). > > GNOME adds a configuration setting that wasn't there before, user threatens > to go to KDE. There's a first for everything! (...not a bad one ;)) User threatens to got to KDE because $GNOME_MAINTAINER changes something that has been there for years in a solo action. Not the first time! > Bill Regards, Christoph From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 20:16:20 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:16:20 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256067341.1803.84.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE0923.2020202@kanarip.com> <1256066273.2314.273.camel@adam.local.net> <1256067341.1803.84.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADE1A94.1090409@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 09:35 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 12:17 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: >> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 21:01 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >>> On 10/20/2009 08:11 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: >>>> Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip at kanarip.com) said: >>>>> Next time, I might just re-consider using KDE (and have my users use >>>>> KDE as well, while I'm at it). >>>> >>>> GNOME adds a configuration setting that wasn't there before, user threatens >>>> to go to KDE. There's a first for everything! >> >>> In fact, GNOME isn't doing any of this, and you should have said >>> *change* rather then *add*. >> >> The padding changes were actually prompted by upstream GNOME bug reports >> and will go upstream, AIUI. Only the 'show desktop' button change and >> number of workspaces change are unique to Fedora. > > We send all of our patches upstream, as a matter of policy - unless they > are really really Fedora specific. If and when they will be accepted > upstream is a different question. > I was under the impression that only rawhide left package maintainers with a kind of liberty to ship patches that are not (yet) accepted upstream. I'm not sure how this aligns with the current situation where all of our gears are lined up towards releasing Fedora 12, while GNOME packages may have patches that may not be accepted upstream (yet) by the time Fedora 12 is released. It's not so much a tight schedule I guess since Fedora 12 is still a few weeks away, but then again I'm not familiar with how fast GNOME responds to patches adding new "features" however of minor impact. -- Jeroen From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 20:18:00 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:18:00 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4ADE1AF8.2040909@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 09:13 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > But I'm really struggling to see why the change from: > https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/7/74/Tours_Fedora11_010.png > to > http://notting.fedorapeople.org/Screenshot.png > > is really worth *this* much sturm und drang. > Then why are you participating in the discussion? -- Jeroen From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 20:22:58 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 01:52:58 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020200130.GE3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE14DA.20705@fedoraproject.org> <20091020200130.GE3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4ADE1C22.6000202@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 01:31 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > No, I'm saying that when the XFCE and LXDE SIGs say they have 7-10 members > each, how am I supposed to know that they actually have only one or two > active development members, as you state? I'm not psychic. You bought up the argument after I told you that only one or two people are involved in reality in the other SIG's. If you don't want to believe me feel free to ask the SIG leaders or look at who is doing the package updates. > You stated that a group is 'clearly flawed and desperately in need of change' > when they're not following a process that you don't follow in your own SIGs. No real comparison to the desktop team at all in terms of number of people involved, all working full time or the impact in Fedora being the default download. The higher expectations comes with the higher impact. To clarify, I am not part of the any desktop SIG's anymore. I was part of the Xfce SIG in the past when I was doing the spin and my work was limited to only the spin (make changes in ks file, testing them etc) and I did send some reports to fedora-devel list I made or blog about the changes. Xfce in Fedora was mostly just inheriting upstream changes anyway. If you care about it a > lot more, how about working to enact some of these changes (summaries to > fedora-devel-list, for example), rather than constantly complaining? How do I summarize changes without understanding the rationale for many of the changes or who are the decision makers? I have written loads of documentation including for the desktop beat in the release notes. I maintain a few packages that are part of the desktop spin including transmission, gnote, clutter etc and I have volunteered already to do more. It is not merely complaining. I resent your characterization of the debate. Rahul From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 20:34:12 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:34:12 +0200 Subject: polkit-gnome-authorization missing In-Reply-To: <20091020193535.GB3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4AD93FDF.1060207@fedoraproject.org> <1255752676.1718.2.camel@planemask> <4AD945C5.2090307@fedoraproject.org> <1255811663.29816.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADAFA3B.8030504@kanarip.com> <1256047589.1812.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADDFA6D.8090303@kanarip.com> <20091020193535.GB3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4ADE1EC4.3040607@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 09:35 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip at kanarip.com) said: >> Good god... So this is how you think you can determine whether >> allowing users to install unsigned packages is a good idea or not, >> better then anyone else can? I'm doubting whether you've ever >> administered some real-life desktop systems > > Given that it essentially allows any user to root the box, yeah, > I think it's a safe statement that it's a bad idea to grant that > to users and not grant them other privleges. > Yes it does potentially allow users to nuke their systems if they know how to, or install packages from people that know how to. Essentially, those packages come from proprietary vendors that don't know how to just because they are proprietary vendors, but if they were to know how to, then installing their packages would nuke a system or two. You're entirely right, both you and David. It is a very bad idea to have your users install an RPM that is unsigned (which is not the same as an untrusted source), and so we should all flip the bird to the customer (also part of the ecosystem that enables Red Hat to pay your salary). Last I'll say in this "discussion", FFS. -- Jeroen From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Oct 20 20:39:21 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:39:21 +0200 Subject: Padding 10 in gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <1256058536.1803.54.camel@planemask> References: <1255950939.2799.17.camel@localhost> <1255955788.1740.1.camel@planemask> <4ADDED92.8050500@kanarip.com> <1256058536.1803.54.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADE1FF9.5090205@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 07:08 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 19:04 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >> On 10/19/2009 02:36 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >>> On Mon, 2009-10-19 at 15:15 +0400, Alexey Torkhov wrote: >>>> Hi. >>>> >>>> I????????m wondering why was padding 10 added to default gnome-panel >>>> configuration? My panel at 1280x1024 with bunch of elements has now >>>> difficulties to fit them all. And at smaller resolutions, for example, >>>> at netbooks that wouldn????????t be useful at all. >>> >>> >>> The padding was added because it makes things look less crammed >>> together. >> >> Wow. FWIW, I think it sucks. In any case padding 10 is far too large as >> I can fit an icon in between every other icon -not to mention stuff not >> fitting in the screen's width. > > I didn't know our panel would shrink down to a height of 10. But be that > as it may, to make a system-wide gconf setting change, do > > gconftool-2 --direct \ > --config-source =xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.system \ > --type int --set /apps/panel/toplevels/top_panel/padding 0 > Returning to a slightly earlier question in a different thread, which has been unanswered for like... 30 seconds or so ;-) Is there a utility that can show me what kind of settings are available, and optionally configurable? Note I would not like to delegate to someone to run sabayon every release. I would rather manage a default and/or mandatory configuration file of which I presume one is "/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.system", but what is the other? -- Jeroen From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 21:54:23 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:54:23 -0400 Subject: Padding 10 in gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <4ADE1FF9.5090205@kanarip.com> References: <1255950939.2799.17.camel@localhost> <1255955788.1740.1.camel@planemask> <4ADDED92.8050500@kanarip.com> <1256058536.1803.54.camel@planemask> <4ADE1FF9.5090205@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1256075663.1803.87.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 22:39 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > > Is there a utility that can show me what kind of settings are available, > and optionally configurable? Note I would not like to delegate to > someone to run sabayon every release. > > I would rather manage a default and/or mandatory configuration file of > which I presume one is "/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.system", but what is the other? To paraphrase you: "I'm doubting whether you've ever administered some real-life desktop systems" :-) From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Tue Oct 20 21:56:55 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:56:55 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256075815.16609.222.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 20.10.2009, 15:50 -0400 schrieb Bill Nottingham: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > > Take for example the XFCE or LXDE sig. From a quick look over the wiki, > > > they have no separate mailing lists, no meetings, and I cannot find their > > > design discussions or announcements. Nor the kernel team; they do not have > > > long public meetings discussing kernel config options, or which kernel > > > versions are going where. > > > > Like I already indicated Xfce or LXDE is just one or two people. > > Odd, the wiki page says 9 and 7 people, respectively. I already explained that half an hour before you wrote your. Please read https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2009-October/msg00142.html > (The Desktop SIG page lists 11.) and 10 of them are working at Red Hat. Maybe this is root of the problem that the community is not really involved? Regards, Christoph From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 21:56:56 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:56:56 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADE1A94.1090409@kanarip.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE0923.2020202@kanarip.com> <1256066273.2314.273.camel@adam.local.net> <1256067341.1803.84.camel@planemask> <4ADE1A94.1090409@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1256075816.1803.89.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 22:16 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > > I was under the impression that only rawhide left package maintainers > with a kind of liberty to ship patches that are not (yet) accepted > upstream. I'm not sure how this aligns with the current situation where > all of our gears are lined up towards releasing Fedora 12, while GNOME > packages may have patches that may not be accepted upstream (yet) by the > time Fedora 12 is released. It's not so much a tight schedule I guess > since Fedora 12 is still a few weeks away, but then again I'm not > familiar with how fast GNOME responds to patches adding new "features" > however of minor impact. Sorry, but now you've lost me. Where do you get the idea that we would not be allowed to ship patches ? How do you envision we fix bugs, if not by patching things ?! Confused, Matthias From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Tue Oct 20 22:03:55 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 00:03:55 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256076235.16609.237.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 20.10.2009, 14:13 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 14:11 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip at kanarip.com) said: > > > Next time, I might just re-consider using KDE (and have my users use > > > KDE as well, while I'm at it). > > > > GNOME adds a configuration setting that wasn't there before, user threatens > > to go to KDE. There's a first for everything! > > We can't win... The more you talk of "us" and "we", the more obvious it becomes that you mean a group of like 3 or 4 people, who make decisions and that scare off the a large number of contributors. The growing number of discussions on this list is the proof. I repeatedly asked how many people were involved in the recent changes (not only the panel layout but also the notification theme etc.), but so far none of you cared to reply. How would you expect people to "show up and get involved" then? Regards, Christoph From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Tue Oct 20 22:06:24 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 00:06:24 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020200130.GE3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE14DA.20705@fedoraproject.org> <20091020200130.GE3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256076384.16609.240.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 20.10.2009, 16:01 -0400 schrieb Bill Nottingham: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > > Odd, the wiki page says 9 and 7 people, respectively. (The Desktop SIG > > > page lists 11.) > > > > Are you seriously suggesting that they are on the same level? > > No, I'm saying that when the XFCE and LXDE SIGs say they have 7-10 members > each, None of the SIGS actually says that. Everybody is free to add his or her name to a wiki page. > how am I supposed to know that they actually have only one or two > active development members, as you state? >From the mail I wrote 40 minutes before you wrote yours for example [1]. ;) And if this is not enough: from the wiki, from package-db, fedora-commits-list, fedora-package-review... there are lots of ways if you really care. You are member of the rel-eng team and IIRC you tagged some of my packages. Do you recall tagging an Xfce or LXDE package that was not from me or Kevin? Regards, Christoph [1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2009-October/msg00142.html From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 22:07:54 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:07:54 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256076235.16609.237.camel@wicktop.localdomain> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256076235.16609.237.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256076474.1803.90.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 00:03 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > > I repeatedly asked how many people were involved in the recent changes > (not only the panel layout but also the notification theme etc.), but so > far none of you cared to reply. How would you expect people to "show up > and get involved" then? Yeah, you keep asking these inquisitory questions, and then you get upset when nobody is willing to answer to your interrogation. Sorry, I am not playing that game. From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Tue Oct 20 22:32:59 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 00:32:59 +0200 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256076474.1803.90.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256076235.16609.237.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1256076474.1803.90.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256077979.16609.262.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Well, at least I got a reply... Am Dienstag, den 20.10.2009, 18:07 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 00:03 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > > > > > I repeatedly asked how many people were involved in the recent changes > > (not only the panel layout but also the notification theme etc.), but so > > far none of you cared to reply. How would you expect people to "show up > > and get involved" then? > > Yeah, you keep asking these inquisitory questions, Excuse me, this is a pretty simple question that can be answered with a single number. 4 weeks ago Jon talked about responsibility he and you assume when you make difficult decisions [1]. So where is that responsibility when you are not willing to announce or justify a decision and not even willing to answer a simple question? > and then you get > upset when nobody is willing to answer to your interrogation. If the desktop SIG really is so open and transparent as Bill claims, there would be no need for what you call an interrogation. > Sorry, I am not playing that game. Well, then you can not expect people to play with the desktop SIG. Regards, Christoph [1] Am Dienstag, den 29.09.2009, 11:13 -0400 schrieb William Jon McCann: > For now, Matthias and I have assumed the (often difficult) > responsibility of trying to fit all our shit together in a way that > doesn't totally suck. We *do* need your help to do that. But that > doesn't mean that we're going to avoid making the often difficult > choices - it is critical that we do. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2009-September/msg00062.html From otaylor at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 22:40:19 2009 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:40:19 -0400 Subject: UI Discussion Message-ID: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> A lot of small changes really don't make sense discussed *in isolation*, whether it be: - Padding on the panel - Icons on menus or not - Show desktop button there by default There's going to be pros and cons, its going to look better to some people, and worse to others, but important pros and cons are going to have already occurred to the people making the change. There's no point in having an email thread where people comment on whether it looks better or worse to them, what features they personally use, etc. The chance of any new information coming out of such a discussion is basically zero. What kind of discussions and suggestions do make sense here? - How does the Fedora desktop work for your family? Where do they have trouble? What Fedora features do they love and miss when they user Windows at work? - How does the Fedora desktop work you? That's legitimate, just remember, you are not even a typical Fedora user, much less a typical computer user. So, discussion from this perspective is best if you can suggest ways that make Fedora better for you *and everyone else*. - What usability nits should we be fixing? Again, remember that the Fedora and GNOME philosophy is that usability isn't a zero sum game. Improvements are best when they make things better for everybody. And then they don't need to be configuration options. - How can we make Fedora look better? The best way to make a case here is often screenshots/mockups that show how changes fit together. And of course, appearance is personal, so if it looks obviously better to, it may not look obviously better to everyone. (or it may!) - How should the application you are packaging integrate with the desktop? - Random technical details related to desktop software; proposals for new subsystems, etc. I think it is great that Matthias is posting updates about the polish changes that he and Jon are making. I think it would be even better if it was possible to post some screenshots and lists of planned changes ahead of time. (As always, time is limited, things get done last minute, hopefully we can move in that direction in the future.) But *not* so people can sit here and run down the list of planned changes one by one and debate them. (If you think there is secret cabal that does that inside Red Hat that sits and does that in a meeting you are wrong.) So people can propose additional changes, can show off screenshots where they used 7 pixels of padding instead of 10 and added two on the bottom and it looked way better, and so people will know where we are going and how their work fits into the picture. If you want to be part of the Fedora desktop team, don't worry about whether you are being consulted on every individual decision. Nobody is, whether they have a @redhat email or not. Worry about what you can be working on to make the desktop better. If you doing cool things to make the desktop better and you are being ignored, and you aren't getting those cool things in, complain! And if you want to help, and have the time and skills to help, and its not clear what you should be doing to help, complain about that too. - Owen From stickster at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 22:47:50 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:47:50 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDEC52.1050509@fedoraproject.org> <1256058741.2314.254.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDF3ED.1020702@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20091020224750.GF933@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 01:31:25PM -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On 10/20/2009 01:12 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > This has been the shortest Fedora release cycle yet, hasn't it? I can > relate to trying to get as much polish as possible with what time is > left with the major features under folks' belts. Not much shorter than our usual six months, actually -- although it probably seems like it after the longer F10->F11 period. > I know the schedule is important, but more times than not in the various > projects I've worked on, it's the small usability tweaks that get > dropped, the schedule is used as the justification, and it is a really > disappointing loss of an opportunity to make a big positive impact. > Sometimes, also, these kinds of tweaks do need to be made towards the > end part of the implementation cycle as sometimes initial designs for > features evolve between initial requirements, spec, and implementation - > usability tweaks you would have proposed early on aren't always > applicable anymore. > > Moving forward, for F13, could we propose a feature called 'small effort > / big impact polish'? We could brainstorm early on these sorts of > changes we might make to the desktop default configuration and enumerate > them on the wiki? Maybe if they are clearly communicated up front using > the Features page, at the beginning of the cycle, folks could get more > used to the idea / know its coming with a little less stress / perceived > risk. The 'implementation' work for this 'feature' during the cycle > would be less actual development and more doing any research / > comparative studies / usability testing needed to help make a call on them. > > In short, I don't want us to lose out on big impact polish changes, but > I also don't think the ends always justify the means. I do understand > the concern that discussing these sorts of changes openly will turn into > a useless flame-fest, but if we can apply just a little bit of structure > to that (maybe a designated feedback period is scheduled into the f13 > feature, for example) the feared flame-fest could be avoided. This seems very rational to me -- the middle paragraph above seems a bit coincident with "Fit and Finish," but that's not a bad thing. :-) I wrote a reply earlier with much the same point. I feel like the response to every Desktop change should not be "This is different! Different is bad!", and at the same time we can do a better job as a project of propagating change *notices* around in advance with just a little effort and goodwill. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From johannbg at hi.is Tue Oct 20 22:48:27 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:48:27 +0000 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADE197B.3050008@kanarip.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <4ADDF172.8060909@hi.is> <1256060012.1803.61.camel@planemask> <4ADDF957.1070800@hi.is> <1256063481.1803.74.camel@planemask> <4ADE197B.3050008@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <4ADE3E3B.7060702@hi.is> On 10/20/2009 08:11 PM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > On 10/20/2009 08:31 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 17:54 +0000, "J??hann B. Gu??mundsson" wrote: >>> Does there exist an export/import tool for gconf database so that users >>> that would want to keep the old/their settings can use to export them >>> then just simply import it after upgrade/fresh install. That would keep >>> them happy and you guy's could introduce new changes targeted at new to >>> linux audience with less hassle.. >>> >>> If such an tool does not exists what's the recommended way of >>> backing up >>> system wide/personal gconf databases so we can document that >>> somewhere.. >> >> I recommend gconftool-2 --help-load. >> It is unfortunate that these options are not documented in the man page. >> > > Is there a configuration utility to see what configuration settings > are available et al, and maybe configure them? gconftool-2 is the cli tool. and I guess gconf-editor the gui app ( not installed by default ) I suppose I'm by far some *DE expert ( @ the moment ) and there are other components I will be digging into before any of the *DE but here's something from my limited knowledge.. To list "keys in trees" do for example. gconftool-2 -R / gconftool-2 -R / | grep nautilus etc.. changes settings gconftool-2 --set --type boolean 0 or 1 or --type string "" etc.. Have not received any reply from Matthias if this enough to back up users settings between upgrades thou.. gconftool-2 --dump / > gconf.backup.xml # To backup everything in the "Tree" gconftool-2 --load gconf.backup.xml # To restore after JBG From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 22:56:48 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 04:26:48 +0530 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4ADE4030.8030506@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 04:10 AM, Owen Taylor wrote: > But *not* so people can sit here and run down the list of planned > changes one by one and debate them. (If you think there is > secret cabal that does that inside Red Hat that sits and does that > in a meeting you are wrong.) Why do you think people get that impression? I think the answer is obvious. It isn't clear where these changes get discussed and who decides to implement them. A ad-hoc process doesn't scale well beyond a set of people sitting in the same room. I remember learning to package stuff for Fedora before our current packaging guidelines were published. It involved catching hold of a Red Hat person in IRC and nag him till he gives you some hints on getting started and then somehow get your package building. If you want to delegate tasks or allow other people to participate, a more formal process really is required. Yes, it is a pain in the ass and takes a lot more time but that's the price you pay for more transparency. > If you want to be part of the Fedora desktop team, don't worry about > whether you are being consulted on every individual decision. Nobody is, > whether they have a @redhat email or not. Worry about what you can be > working on to make the desktop better. If you doing cool things to make > the desktop better and you are being ignored, and you aren't getting > those cool things in, complain! And if you want to help, and have the > time and skills to help, and its not clear what you should be doing to > help, complain about that too. Yes, it is not clear how people should help. The recent flood of UI changes very close to the end of the development is suggestive that people in the team aren't able to find time to work on this earlier. Like I said, this in part a failure to spend cycles growing the external community of people. Simple things like asking for help if you are busy can make a difference. If you are willing to cede some control over to other people, then let me volunteer to do atleast the simple updates that will free up people in the team to do other more important and less boring things. Rahul From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Oct 20 23:33:48 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:33:48 -0400 Subject: Tomorrows polish Message-ID: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> To follow Owens suggestion, here are screenshots of my current polish items: Folder icons for xdg folders in the file chooser: http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-filechooser.png and in nautilus: http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-nautilus.png New tooltips look: http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/gedit-tooltip.png Matthias From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 23:45:35 2009 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (sankarshan) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 05:15:35 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256055141.2314.250.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <35586fc00910200904g47465f6cm7614aa921380a0f7@mail.gmail.com> <1256055141.2314.250.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <35586fc00910201645o2550fd30nb1eeb020c473b907@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > yes, you can right click and add it as a panel item. It's in the list as > 'Show Desktop'. Can this (and, should this) be recorded in some sort of notes for the Spin ? It should come of use to those who want the button but don't know how to get it. -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 20 23:54:58 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 05:24:58 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <35586fc00910201645o2550fd30nb1eeb020c473b907@mail.gmail.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <35586fc00910200904g47465f6cm7614aa921380a0f7@mail.gmail.com> <1256055141.2314.250.camel@adam.local.net> <35586fc00910201645o2550fd30nb1eeb020c473b907@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADE4DD2.3060300@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 05:15 AM, sankarshan wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> yes, you can right click and add it as a panel item. It's in the list as >> 'Show Desktop'. > > Can this (and, should this) be recorded in some sort of notes for the > Spin ? It should come of use to those who want the button but don't > know how to get it. Added to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Desktop_Beat#GNOME_2.28 Rahul From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 00:17:31 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:17:31 -0400 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> Going to reply to this one only because it is convenient. General response to the activity today. I'm going to try to say pretty much exactly the same thing that Owen did... but in my way. Here's the deal. We see a bug - we fix a bug. Often it is as simple as that. Here's a fictional reconstruction of more or less what occurred with respect to the changes that have been discussed today. Me: Matthias, I've finally had a chance to sit down and look closely at what we're doing in our default panel configuration. Holy crap - it sucks. We knew that of course. And the Shell is going to fix some of these bugs. But here are a few changes that I think we can make in the short term that make F12 look a bit more polished. [I rattle off a few things] Matthias: Hey, those sound pretty reasonable. And they shouldn't be hard to fix. [after not much time at all - in this case only a few hours I think] Matthias: Hey what do you think of this? [has everything done] Me: Holy crap - you're a stud. Looks much better! Matthias: Cool. I'll email the Fedora desktop community and push out some packages. Me: You rock. Where did this conversation occur? On IRC. Why IRC? Only because we're too boring (to be fair, Matthias isn't boring - he has a family - which is slightly different) to hang out in clubs and have chats at the bar. Could have occurred anywhere. Did it make sense to poll the community first? No. This was a small change that in our opinion makes things better. Does our opinion matter more than yours? It may... Why? Because this is in essence still a meritocracy and we have trust relationships that may not be immediately evident to the casual observer. Does that mean that we don't listen to anyone? Absolutely not. Ideas some from many sources. But at the end of the day someone has to sift through them and pick out the ones that shine. Sound good? Want in the hot making a kick ass desktop action? You got it. Here's how... Grab one of us on IRC, IM, phone, train, email etc and make a case for what you want to see. Understand that this will be somewhat easier once you've built up a reputation for being full of awesome. But mostly we need people with skill, vision, sanity, and positive energy helping us make Fedora all that we know it can and will be. Seriously, bring it. You have great ideas? Want to help form the vision of the future of computing? Show up, build trust, be awesome. Now let's get back to work! Jon PS. I've offered a fictionalized account of some of these discussions. Now you may wonder if it really goes down like that. Well, here is an actual IRC transcript from today - the cabal exposed, if you will: hey what is the "Compress" item in the nautilus context menu supposed to do? "add to an archive"? hmm shouldn't offer that option on the Trash i guess yeah, I believe it is 'create an archive with the contents of this directory' yeah it is a pretty bad name And the ubuntu guys failed to reach a conclusion what to call it, I believe ? oh we should probably ditch the "stretch icon" option not even close to common enough to be there thats an old eazel-era feature from when nautilus was all about zooming in for more details yeah it is silly * mclasen remembers fixing that up at some point but I agree that it should probably go also Open with seems weird sometimes a submenu sometimes not how would you do it otherwise ? Other... > ? oh i guess it shows a submenu if there are 3 or more options offering to compress Computer isn't right :) yeah, something like that oh weird i can rename Computer too also "Make Link" is weird for two reasons it is a bit unclear what it really means also, when i do it, it creates the link overlapping the original Make Link makes it sound like I'm changing the original into a link i wonder who actually uses this I agree that nautilus could use quite a bit of intuitiveness love curious how the ubuntu papercuts seemed very obsessed with nautilus without really touching those issues hmm, we offer creating launchers on the desktop... yeah i haven't seen any of these in the papercuts yet a little odd that the totem moz plugin has an about menu item in the right click menu i was expecting it to tell me about the video From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 01:39:47 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:39:47 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256089187.4242.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 10:19 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > You most certainly do not > have 4 weeks of bugfixing left. I'd prefer all changes are done by Nov > 10th so that we can enter the RC stage and only pick up changes that > would prevent the release of Fedora 12. I can't math. Target for RC date is Nov 4th -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 02:18:07 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:18:07 -0700 Subject: Tomorrows polish In-Reply-To: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> References: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256091487.2314.328.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 19:33 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > To follow Owens suggestion, here are screenshots of my current polish > items: > > Folder icons for xdg folders in the file chooser: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-filechooser.png > and in nautilus: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-nautilus.png > > New tooltips look: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/gedit-tooltip.png Thanks for giving the heads-up. Those look nice to me, BTW. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 02:28:12 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:28:12 -0700 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1256092092.2314.337.camel@adam.local.net> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 20:17 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: > Going to reply to this one only because it is convenient. General > response to the activity today. > > I'm going to try to say pretty much exactly the same thing that Owen > did... but in my way. > > Here's the deal. We see a bug - we fix a bug. Often it is as simple > as that. Here's a fictional reconstruction of more or less what > occurred with respect to the changes that have been discussed today. > > Me: Matthias, I've finally had a chance to sit down and look closely > at what we're doing in our default panel configuration. Holy crap - > it sucks. We knew that of course. And the Shell is going to fix some > of these bugs. But here are a few changes that I think we can make in > the short term that make F12 look a bit more polished. [I rattle off > a few things] > Matthias: Hey, those sound pretty reasonable. And they shouldn't be > hard to fix. > [after not much time at all - in this case only a few hours I think] > Matthias: Hey what do you think of this? [has everything done] > Me: Holy crap - you're a stud. Looks much better! > Matthias: Cool. I'll email the Fedora desktop community and push out > some packages. > Me: You rock. > the bar. Could have occurred anywhere. Did it make sense to poll the > community first? No. This was a small change that in our opinion > makes things better. Does our opinion matter more than yours? It > may... Why? Because this is in essence still a meritocracy and we > have trust relationships that may not be immediately evident to the > casual observer. Does that mean that we don't listen to anyone? > Absolutely not. Ideas some from many sources. But at the end of the > day someone has to sift through them and pick out the ones that shine. I don't think anyone's debating any of the above. The important issues that have been raised are different: basically that this was not necessarily a good time in the release cycle to make these changes, as they are not generally expected to happen post-Beta (though we do need to make this more explicit), and it makes things tough on the documentation front, as we are past the translation freeze for the Release Notes, where this kind of change should be documented. Also that it would be a good idea to *notify* (note: not poll) the community about changes beforehand. I understand that it's much less pain to be able to just make what seem to you to be sensible changes in this kind of casual and _fast_ way no matter where you are in the release cycle, but you're curating something that's very important to probably millions of people: the layout of the desktop they spend hours and hours a day interacting with. There's a reasonable case for applying some sensible precautions to this. This is not to say that all change is bad and should be opposed out of principle, simply that it should happen at appropriate stages of the cycle (and, as I've mentioned, other groups have work to do to make this more clear) and with appropriate notification (which I'm more worried about than discussion). I'd also add the minor point that the tag request which was accepted to get these changes into F12 did not explain the changes. That's not good. The 2.28.0-5 tag request just says "contains a number of tweaks to our default panel configuration that make the appearance of the panel more pleasant", but doesn't explain what they are. It was obsoleted in favour of the 2.28.0-6 tag request without anyone from releng actually reading it, it seems, and the 2.28.0-6 tag request does not mention the padding or 'desktop icon' changes at all. https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/2488 - -5 tag request https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/2501 - -6 tag request -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From sven at lank.es Wed Oct 21 05:35:55 2009 From: sven at lank.es (Sven Lankes) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 07:35:55 +0200 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091021053555.GX21873@killefiz> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 08:17:31PM -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: > Where did this conversation occur? On IRC. Why IRC? Maybe moving the sig irc channel to the same irc-network that all the other parts of fedora use (according to the sig page it's currently on GIMPnet) would help alleviate the alien feeling many fellow fedorians have when it comes to the Gnome/Desktop-SIG? -- sven === jabber/xmpp: sven at lankes.net From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Oct 21 06:38:39 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:38:39 +0300 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4ADEAC6F.5020708@nicubunu.ro> On 10/20/2009 09:11 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jeroen van Meeuwen said: >> Next time, I might just re-consider using KDE (and have my users use >> KDE as well, while I'm at it). > > GNOME adds a configuration setting that wasn't there before, user threatens > to go to KDE. There's a first for everything! Nope, is more like Red Hat Desktop Team makes *yet another change* in the behaviour of the default Fedora desktop without input from the community. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Oct 21 06:40:21 2009 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:40:21 -0700 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <20091021053555.GX21873@killefiz> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> <20091021053555.GX21873@killefiz> Message-ID: <7BAD14A8-5AB8-465A-880E-1ACD02231048@j2solutions.net> On Oct 20, 2009, at 22:35, Sven Lankes wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 08:17:31PM -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: > >> Where did this conversation occur? On IRC. Why IRC? > > Maybe moving the sig irc channel to the same irc-network that all the > other parts of fedora use (according to the sig page it's currently on > GIMPnet) would help alleviate the alien feeling many fellow fedorians > have when it comes to the Gnome/Desktop-SIG? > I find it rather hard to believe that a different irc network is really th reason people aren't joinin the channel. It's not like irc clients can connect to more than one network. Sounds more like an excuse to me. -- Jes From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Oct 21 06:42:16 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:42:16 +0300 Subject: Tomorrows polish In-Reply-To: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> References: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADEAD48.6040109@nicubunu.ro> On 10/21/2009 02:33 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > To follow Owens suggestion, here are screenshots of my current polish > items: > > Folder icons for xdg folders in the file chooser: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-filechooser.png > and in nautilus: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-nautilus.png Don't you think the old "home" emblem should be also modified to be white to match those newly added? Or maybe make those dark blue, to fit "home", not sure how is best but consistency is good. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Oct 21 07:04:12 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:04:12 +0300 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4ADEB26C.8050901@nicubunu.ro> On 10/21/2009 01:40 AM, Owen Taylor wrote: > > - How does the Fedora desktop work you? That's legitimate, just > remember, you are not even a typical Fedora user, much less a > typical computer user. So, discussion from this perspective > is best if you can suggest ways that make Fedora better for > you *and everyone else*. Considering Fedora has a defined target audience (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Is_Fedora_For_Me) which is *not* 'everybody', I think people subscribed to this list are pretty much typical Fedora users. > If you want to be part of the Fedora desktop team, don't worry about > whether you are being consulted on every individual decision. Nobody is, > whether they have a @redhat email or not. Worry about what you can be > working on to make the desktop better. If you doing cool things to make > the desktop better and you are being ignored, and you aren't getting > those cool things in, complain! And if you want to help, and have the > time and skills to help, and its not clear what you should be doing to > help, complain about that too. But people outside of a small group are often made to not feel welcomed so after a while you stop bothering to try. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Oct 21 07:23:52 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:23:52 +0200 Subject: Padding 10 in gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <1256075663.1803.87.camel@planemask> References: <1255950939.2799.17.camel@localhost> <1255955788.1740.1.camel@planemask> <4ADDED92.8050500@kanarip.com> <1256058536.1803.54.camel@planemask> <4ADE1FF9.5090205@kanarip.com> <1256075663.1803.87.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADEB708.10700@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 11:54 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 22:39 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > >> >> Is there a utility that can show me what kind of settings are available, >> and optionally configurable? Note I would not like to delegate to >> someone to run sabayon every release. >> >> I would rather manage a default and/or mandatory configuration file of >> which I presume one is "/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.system", but what is the other? > > To paraphrase you: > > "I'm doubting whether you've ever administered some real-life desktop > systems" > Fair enough ;-) -- Jeroen From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 07:20:41 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:50:41 +0530 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADEB649.2000108@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 05:47 AM, William Jon McCann wrote: > oh > we should probably ditch the "stretch icon" option > not even close to common enough to be there > thats an old eazel-era feature > from when nautilus was all about zooming in for more details > yeah it is silly > * mclasen remembers fixing that up at some point > but I agree that it should probably go To focus on one thing: I actually use this option quite often. My home or trash folder is bigger than the other items in a sometimes cluttered desktop to make it easy for me to drag something into it or click on it without having to spend much time focusing on it. This is why getting feedback from users is important. I am sorry that I cannot stay on IRC all the time and I would prefer if more conversations happened on mailing list or atleast if the IRC logs were posted when such discussions happen. It would help understand things better even if we don't agree on the outcome. Rahul From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Oct 21 07:38:02 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:38:02 +0200 Subject: Tomorrows polish In-Reply-To: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> References: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADEBA5A.20705@kanarip.com> On 10/21/2009 01:33 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > To follow Owens suggestion, here are screenshots of my current polish > items: > > Folder icons for xdg folders in the file chooser: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-filechooser.png > and in nautilus: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-nautilus.png > I like these, they look fancier ;-) > New tooltips look: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/gedit-tooltip.png > I'm not sure I like the light-gray; how would light-blue look (that was your other suggestion, right?). I've searched through gconf-editor on key names with tooltip in them but I didn't find any; is there a way I can try myself? Thanks! -- Jeroen From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Oct 21 07:47:33 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:47:33 +0200 Subject: Recent changes to gnome-panel In-Reply-To: <1256052586.1803.29.camel@planemask> References: <1256051240.2314.240.camel@adam.local.net> <20091020152351.GC32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256052586.1803.29.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADEBC95.70604@kanarip.com> On 10/20/2009 05:29 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 11:23 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: >> Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) said: >>> there's concern that this kind of highly-visible behaviour change >>> shouldn't be introduced this late in the cycle. When I talked to >>> Matthias on IRC he seemed to think the changes to remove the 'show >>> desktop' button and reduce the default number of workspaces from 4 to 2 >>> should affect only new users, but the forum discussion seems to indicate >>> they actually affect existing users too. Is this considered a bug? >> >> I can confirm that the changes do not affect the existing user on my >> laptop. > > 'It depends'. The change is to the default value of some GConf settings. > So if you have tweaked the value before, you won't be affected by > changes to the default. If you haven't, you will be. > I'm sure I've shown someone how many workspaces you can have (and so I set that value back to 4 afterwards); it hasn't changed. However, the Show Desktop icon did disappear on me, and the padding setting knocked off some of my applets from the upper panel. It seems to me it's exactly like Matthias describes. -- Jeroen From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 08:21:54 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:21:54 +0200 Subject: Tomorrows polish In-Reply-To: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> References: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256113314.1971.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 19:33 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > To follow Owens suggestion, here are screenshots of my current polish > items: > > Folder icons for xdg folders in the file chooser: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-filechooser.png > and in nautilus: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-nautilus.png > As Nicu pointed, these are inconsistent with the home folder, other than that they look nice :) > New tooltips look: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/gedit-tooltip.png > The rounded corners are sorta odd (probably because you are faking transparency), you could probably use rounded corners only if you have compositing manager?. The grey colour doesn't stand out so it's harder to spot the tooltip. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 08:39:49 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:39:49 +0200 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <4ADEB649.2000108@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> <4ADEB649.2000108@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256114389.1971.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 12:50 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 10/21/2009 05:47 AM, William Jon McCann wrote: > > > oh > > we should probably ditch the "stretch icon" option > > not even close to common enough to be there > > thats an old eazel-era feature > > from when nautilus was all about zooming in for more details > > yeah it is silly > > * mclasen remembers fixing that up at some point > > but I agree that it should probably go > > To focus on one thing: I actually use this option quite often. My home > or trash folder is bigger than the other items in a sometimes cluttered > desktop to make it easy for me to drag something into it or click on it > without having to spend much time focusing on it. This is why getting > feedback from users is important. > > I am sorry that I cannot stay on IRC all the time and I would prefer if > more conversations happened on mailing list or atleast if the IRC logs > were posted when such discussions happen. It would help understand > things better even if we don't agree on the outcome. > Same here, though a little different purpose. Please do not decide for users what isn't useful. Although, I has to say this function regressed, at least for SVGs between F10 and F11 (sorry I didn't get around yet to fill the bug, but I've heard it's a known regression) and resized SVGs (when applying this on image previews) are rendered to bitmap in smaller size than the final size is (I'd guess about 2 times smaller than the final image), which makes it blurry. And to the main topic: when you discuss some changes on IRC with one or two other people, it's a good idea to let the community know about your conclusions and discuss it with wider audience on the desktop list (in your case) and *then* implement the agreed changes. Well, I have to admit the F12 schedule has made it almost impossible for you if you want to still make the "polishes" in time for F12... But please bear that in mind in the future. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 09:02:14 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:32:14 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADECE59.900@redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADECE59.900@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4ADECE16.6000308@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 02:33 PM, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On 10/20/2009 09:46 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >> They don't see the window list in the bottom? The show desktop button >> has been in the GNOME panel for years and years. I am not sure why you >> wait for such changes to be done at the last minute. Where does such >> changes get discussed? > > ctr+alt+d? No idea what you mean by that. You will have to try something less cryptic. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 09:09:17 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:39:17 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADECFDE.5040003@redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADECE59.900@redhat.com> <4ADECE16.6000308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADECFDE.5040003@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4ADECFBD.9020004@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 02:39 PM, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On 10/21/2009 05:02 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I mean, if you find that function so useful, there's always the > ctrl+alt+d combination. You can still argue that it's been there for > ages though. I am hardly arguing for myself. It would be trivial for me to add back the panel applet. This discussion is not about my personal preferences at all but the process of making changes and how it impacts end users. Rahul From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Wed Oct 21 09:50:19 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:50:19 +0200 Subject: gnote (was Re: Some recent changes) In-Reply-To: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256118619.2898.62.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 20.10.2009, 08:54 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > - Gnote has been moved to the left, with the other launchers, This is not logical because gnote is no launcher. A launcher launches a program in a new window. Clicking the Gnote icon doesn't open a new window but a menu. Gnote is an applet, the mouse buttons work exactly like the other applets, so it should be on the right side with the rest of the applets. > the user switcher has been moved to the far right Makes sense as it is not used that often. > and the show desktop button has been removed. IMO this is the wrong direction, but that was already said by others. > Matthias Regards, Christoph From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Wed Oct 21 09:59:54 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:59:54 +0200 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <4ADEB649.2000108@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> <4ADEB649.2000108@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256119194.2898.73.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Mittwoch, den 21.10.2009, 12:50 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > On 10/21/2009 05:47 AM, William Jon McCann wrote: > > > oh > > we should probably ditch the "stretch icon" option > > not even close to common enough to be there > > thats an old eazel-era feature > > from when nautilus was all about zooming in for more details > > yeah it is silly > > * mclasen remembers fixing that up at some point > > but I agree that it should probably go > > To focus on one thing: I actually use this option quite often. I don't use it often but whenever I work at my customers I see a lot of them are using this feature. > This is why getting > feedback from users is important. Who cares for feedback? The so called desktop team obviously not. Regards, Christoph From sven at lank.es Wed Oct 21 10:44:02 2009 From: sven at lank.es (Sven Lankes) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:44:02 +0200 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <7BAD14A8-5AB8-465A-880E-1ACD02231048@j2solutions.net> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> <20091021053555.GX21873@killefiz> <7BAD14A8-5AB8-465A-880E-1ACD02231048@j2solutions.net> Message-ID: <20091021104401.GZ21873@killefiz> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:40:21PM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: >> Maybe moving the sig irc channel to the same irc-network that all the >> other parts of fedora use (according to the sig page it's currently on >> GIMPnet) would help alleviate the alien feeling many fellow fedorians >> have when it comes to the Gnome/Desktop-SIG? > I find it rather hard to believe that a different irc network is really > th reason people aren't joinin the channel. I agree - and that is the reason why I didn't state something like that. But still having a channel on a completely different irc-network does send a message - that's all I'm saying. -- sven === jabber/xmpp: sven at lankes.net From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 11:04:13 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 07:04:13 -0400 Subject: Tomorrows polish In-Reply-To: <4ADEBA5A.20705@kanarip.com> References: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> <4ADEBA5A.20705@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1256123053.1803.98.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 09:38 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > On 10/21/2009 01:33 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > To follow Owens suggestion, here are screenshots of my current polish > > items: > > > > Folder icons for xdg folders in the file chooser: > > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-filechooser.png > > and in nautilus: > > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xdg-folders-nautilus.png > > > > I like these, they look fancier ;-) > > > New tooltips look: > > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/gedit-tooltip.png > > > > I'm not sure I like the light-gray; how would light-blue look (that was > your other suggestion, right?). Umm. This was supposed to be the light blue. Maybe it is not blue enough... > I've searched through gconf-editor on key names with tooltip in them but > I didn't find any; is there a way I can try myself? You can play with colors in the appearance capplet (System > Preferences > Appearance), under Customize > Colors. From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 11:14:11 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 07:14:11 -0400 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <1256119194.2898.73.camel@wicktop.localdomain> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> <4ADEB649.2000108@fedoraproject.org> <1256119194.2898.73.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256123651.1803.101.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 11:59 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > > > This is why getting > > feedback from users is important. > > Who cares for feedback? The so called desktop team obviously not. Christoph, this is the desktop teams mailing list. Can we please establish minimal ground rules of conduct that in order to participate in a discussion here, we don't try to include a baseless attack on the desktop team in every message. It poisons the atmosphere. Thanks From tiagomatos at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 11:34:02 2009 From: tiagomatos at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Rui_Tiago_Ca=C3=A7=C3=A3o_Matos?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:34:02 +0100 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <1256119194.2898.73.camel@wicktop.localdomain> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> <4ADEB649.2000108@fedoraproject.org> <1256119194.2898.73.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Message-ID: 2009/10/21 Christoph Wickert : >> > oh >> > we should probably ditch the "stretch icon" option >> > not even close to common enough to be there >> > thats an old eazel-era feature >> > from when nautilus was all about zooming in for more details >> > yeah it is silly >> > * mclasen remembers fixing that up at some point >> > but I agree that it should probably go >> >> To focus on one thing: ?I actually use this option quite often. > > I don't use it often but whenever I work at my customers I see a lot of > them are using this feature. > >> This is why getting >> feedback from users is important. > > Who cares for feedback? The so called desktop team obviously not. Look, things evolve. GNOME is full of little unprofessional details like this. I, FWIW, wish that these things get axed for GNOME 3. Yes, there will be "regressions". And ultimately, those who *do* the work make things go forward. And no, I don't agree that you have to announce all the things that you're going to go. Sometimes, you just do. Else, this all crumbles under the weight of a highly bureaucratised design by committee which sucks up all energy in the *process* preventing the actual production of *content*. If you want to have a say on things, work for it. Like Linus said once, "talk is cheap". Hope you liked my feedback. Rui From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 12:13:45 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:13:45 +0100 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <20091021104401.GZ21873@killefiz> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> <20091021053555.GX21873@killefiz> <7BAD14A8-5AB8-465A-880E-1ACD02231048@j2solutions.net> <20091021104401.GZ21873@killefiz> Message-ID: <1256127225.19029.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 12:44 +0200, Sven Lankes wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:40:21PM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > >> Maybe moving the sig irc channel to the same irc-network that all the > >> other parts of fedora use (according to the sig page it's currently on > >> GIMPnet) would help alleviate the alien feeling many fellow fedorians > >> have when it comes to the Gnome/Desktop-SIG? > > > I find it rather hard to believe that a different irc network is really > > th reason people aren't joinin the channel. > > I agree - and that is the reason why I didn't state something like that. > > But still having a channel on a completely different irc-network does > send a message - that's all I'm saying. The Desktop SIG uses the network that GNOME's upstream uses. We have very many people on the channel that are GNOME hackers, and work for other companies. The current setup suits us pretty well. From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Wed Oct 21 12:27:44 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:27:44 +0200 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <1256123651.1803.101.camel@planemask> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> <4ADEB649.2000108@fedoraproject.org> <1256119194.2898.73.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1256123651.1803.101.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256128064.2898.85.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Mittwoch, den 21.10.2009, 07:14 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 11:59 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > > > > > > This is why getting > > > feedback from users is important. > > > > Who cares for feedback? The so called desktop team obviously not. > > > Christoph, this is the desktop teams mailing list. Can we please > establish minimal ground rules of conduct that in order to participate > in a discussion here, we don't try to include a baseless attack on the > desktop team in every message. It was not a baseless attack but based *on* *facts*. Many share my concerns, so obliviously they cannot be baseless baseless. I would love to have a minimal code of conduct on this mailing list, but this also includes answers to simple questions and you repeatedly declined them. > It poisons the atmosphere. I could say the very same about your mails, e.g. when you call a simple question an "inquisition" or "interrogation". While we are at it: Yesterday *several* people (not only me but also John or Martin) I asked who was involved in the recent panel changes. You refused to reply, but Jon was kind enough to post the IRC transcript. It was you and Jon again, so my guess was right. > Thanks Regards, Christoph From rdieter at math.unl.edu Wed Oct 21 12:43:00 2009 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 07:43 -0500 Subject: UI Discussion References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> <4ADEB649.2000108@fedoraproject.org> <1256119194.2898.73.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1256123651.1803.101.camel@planemask> <1256128064.2898.85.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Message-ID: Christoph Wickert wrote: > It was not a baseless attack but based *on* *facts*. Many share my > concerns, so obliviously they cannot be baseless baseless. It is possible to provide constructive criticism without snide comments or personal attacks. That you did not do with your "so called" comment. Remember: "be excellent to each other". -- Rex From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 12:48:36 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:18:36 +0530 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <1256128064.2898.85.camel@wicktop.localdomain> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> <4ADEB649.2000108@fedoraproject.org> <1256119194.2898.73.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <1256123651.1803.101.camel@planemask> <1256128064.2898.85.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Message-ID: <4ADF0324.90400@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 05:57 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote: > I would love to have a minimal code of conduct on this mailing list, but > this also includes answers to simple questions and you repeatedly > declined them. > >> It poisons the atmosphere. > > I could say the very same about your mails, e.g. when you call a simple > question an "inquisition" or "interrogation". I think the points that have to be discussed have already been at this point. I don't see antagonizing people as worth the effort by itself. When the discussion moves away from technical topics to personalities, it is time you moved on. Rahul From johannbg at hi.is Wed Oct 21 13:00:17 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:00:17 +0000 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <1256127225.19029.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <939dd5750910201717o65d33921o4eac5a9c871ddd69@mail.gmail.com> <20091021053555.GX21873@killefiz> <7BAD14A8-5AB8-465A-880E-1ACD02231048@j2solutions.net> <20091021104401.GZ21873@killefiz> <1256127225.19029.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4ADF05E1.1040907@hi.is> On 10/21/2009 12:13 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 12:44 +0200, Sven Lankes wrote: > >> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:40:21PM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: >> >> >>>> Maybe moving the sig irc channel to the same irc-network that all the >>>> other parts of fedora use (according to the sig page it's currently on >>>> GIMPnet) would help alleviate the alien feeling many fellow fedorians >>>> have when it comes to the Gnome/Desktop-SIG? >>>> >> >>> I find it rather hard to believe that a different irc network is really >>> th reason people aren't joinin the channel. >>> >> I agree - and that is the reason why I didn't state something like that. >> >> But still having a channel on a completely different irc-network does >> send a message - that's all I'm saying. >> > The Desktop SIG uses the network that GNOME's upstream uses. We have > very many people on the channel that are GNOME hackers, and work for > other companies. The current setup suits us pretty well. > > If I recall correctly there was an #fedora-desktop channel with an gateway that nirik setup that posted what ever was posted there to the other channel hence establishing communication channel between irc-networks they asked that gateway to be closed at that time. They might wanna shed some light in the reasoning behind doing so... The root cause is not a technical issue it's lack of communication transparency and openness. If the Gnome desktop SIG truly wants to achieve vibrant community it needs to communicate more, become transparent and more open to feed back suggestion and ideas and thus giving the individuals participating the feeling that they are a part of a *TEAM*..... There is one thing I have noticed is that the Gnome Desktop SIG seems too focused chasing the *new (m$)* end user and making the adjustments to it's DE according their needs and totally ignoring the already established Fedora Gnome Desktop user base.. Just bear that in mind when you make changes.. JBG -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: johannbg.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 356 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 13:15:22 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:15:22 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4ADE3E3B.7060702@hi.is> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <4ADDF172.8060909@hi.is> <1256060012.1803.61.camel@planemask> <4ADDF957.1070800@hi.is> <1256063481.1803.74.camel@planemask> <4ADE197B.3050008@kanarip.com> <4ADE3E3B.7060702@hi.is> Message-ID: <1256130922.10130.5.camel@planemask> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 22:48 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote: > > Have not received any reply from Matthias if this enough to back up > users settings between upgrades thou.. > > gconftool-2 --dump / > gconf.backup.xml # To backup everything in the > "Tree" > gconftool-2 --load gconf.backup.xml # To restore after I don't think that is going to quite do what you want, since it is only capturing settings you have customized. If you like the old defaults and want to protect yourself from defaults changing underneath you, you probably have to dump and load the defaults database before doing that, to convert all defaults into settings in your personal database. Be careful to dump your customizations first though, to not loose them. From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 13:26:18 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:26:18 -0400 Subject: Tomorrows polish In-Reply-To: <1256123053.1803.98.camel@planemask> References: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> <4ADEBA5A.20705@kanarip.com> <1256123053.1803.98.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4ADF0BFA.40707@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 07:04 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> I'm not sure I like the light-gray; how would light-blue look (that was >> your other suggestion, right?). > > Umm. This was supposed to be the light blue. Maybe it is not blue > enough... I sent blue values to Jon last night (attached). #a9bed5 for the border, #e7f3fd for the fill. That screenshot you sent is definitely not blue; it's a pale purple. ~m -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blue2.png Type: image/png Size: 24080 bytes Desc: not available URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 14:37:17 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:37:17 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? Message-ID: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> Hiiii, So Jon said this: "Grab one of us on IRC, IM, phone, train, email etc and make a case for what you want to see. Understand that this will be somewhat easier once you've built up a reputation for being full of awesome. But mostly we need people with skill, vision, sanity, and positive energy helping us make Fedora all that we know it can and will be. Seriously, bring it. You have great ideas? Want to help form the vision of the future of computing? Show up, build trust, be awesome." With this invitation I am wondering if anyone is interested in getting involved, together with me. I have an idea (I talked to Jon about it last week I think) for a project to help improve the Fedora experience for our desktop users and I wanted to see if anyone is interested in helping out: = Improve our install experience = Jon showed me last week how terrible our live media install experience is. We definitely need to identify all the issues and work through ways of improving it. The installer itself, regardless of the live media installer, does need some serious help, as does the firstboot application. The anaconda team has put a lot of efforts in F11 and F12 towards a storage system rewrite, and if you follow Planet Fedora you've likely seen some of my mockups and discussion around the storage UI design improvements (I think they won't hit F12 but should make F13): http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/anaconda-advanced-storage-devices/ But there's screens and scenarios those mockups don't cover - *plenty* of room for improvement. I spoke with Chris Lumens and Peter Jones on the anaconda team, and if in the F13 time frame we can get some nice designs and usability suggestions lined up, they said they would be happy to work with us to get those improvements into F14. On top of this, such a project is a good opportunity for folks to get involved in improving Fedora's overall desktop experience - no matter what desktop environment camp you're in, since anaconda and firstboot are a bit agnostic there. :) Think you might be interested in helping out? Here's some suggestions on how you could get involved: - mmcgrath put together some videos of the install process on both f11 and ubuntu this week for another purpose, but he made them available in case we wanted to do a comparative study. I could definitely use some help going through these videos, taking notes on them, doing a comparative analysis (sounds a lot scarier and harder than it actually is, trust me), and brainstorming some solution to the issues we identify. The videos are here: http://mmcgrath.fedorapeople.org/compare/ - We now have a usability lab, and it would be cool to put anaconda and firstboot through some tests using it. :) Even though the usability lab equipment is here in my office and you're not, there's a ton of work that goes into usability testing that doesn't involve the equipment - especially the up-front prep work. One of the most important work items for this is putting together a task script for the usability tests. Here's the script we're using for the Fedora Community tests as an example: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraCommunity/UsabilityTestingRound1/TestScript You can even run through the testing script on your own without the fancy-pants equipment. Grab your friends or your family and help contribute to the data pool! Of course once we've got some data I'll need some help going through them and doing the analysis work. Here's an example of this work-in-progress for the Fedora Community usability tests: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraCommunity/UsabilityTestingRound1/AnalysisAndTakeaways If you are interested in either of these work items, reply here or drop me and email and we can set up a time to chat. You don't have to be a developer or a designer to do this work, and it would help make a big positive impact in our user experience. If you work with me to identify the problems and brainstorm some solutions, I promise you some of my design time to create mockups so we can then make a case to the developers to make those improvements happen. Please please please give it a try :) ~m From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 14:44:33 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:44:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > = Improve our install experience = > > Jon showed me last week how terrible our live media install experience > is. We definitely need to identify all the issues and work through ways > of improving it. Can you list the ways the live media install experience is bad? I'm not familiar with this list and I'm curious about it. thanks, -sv From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 14:48:20 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:18:20 +0530 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4ADF1F34.5030503@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 08:07 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > - mmcgrath put together some videos of the install process on both f11 > and ubuntu this week for another purpose, but he made them available in > case we wanted to do a comparative study. I could definitely use some > help going through these videos, taking notes on them, doing a > comparative analysis (sounds a lot scarier and harder than it actually > is, trust me), and brainstorming some solution to the issues we > identify. The videos are here: > > http://mmcgrath.fedorapeople.org/compare/ I will help you with this. Rahul From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 14:58:37 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:58:37 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 10:44 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: > Can you list the ways the live media install experience is bad? I'm not > familiar with this list and I'm curious about it. I'm new to this list too, so I hope it's okay I'm using it for discussing install experience stuff. (Someone let me know if I should take it elsewhere; on that note if we stay here we should let the anaconda-devel list know about the discussion if they want to monitor it.) I'm hoping with some help (and it looks like Rahul has volunteered already; great! :) ) we can come up with a document listing out the problems. It might take a couple weeks or so though. One problem I remember Jon showing me involved where you'd click a cancel button to quit the process, and get stuck in a weird and frightening (since it potentially involves your hard disk getting written to) loop of cancel dialogs. I can't remember the other issues he showed me off-hand. I did see a lot of basic surface-level usability issues (button alignment, button labels, icon placement in the headers, badly-written explanatory text, missing indication of progress so you had no idea how far you were and how many steps were left to complete.) >From experience I think many users have a lot of anxiety during the installation process. (Did I really get everything I wanted to back up backed up? Is this going to screw up my computer? Am I going to make a mistake I can't go back and fix?) Especially coming from the windows world where they are used to the OS being pre-installed - they don't have the experience of installation to call back on. So while the surface-level usability issues I cited might seem minor, polishing those can make a big difference in making these anxious users feel more comfortable. ~m From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 15:07:25 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:07:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On 10/21/2009 10:44 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: >> Can you list the ways the live media install experience is bad? I'm not >> familiar with this list and I'm curious about it. > > I'm new to this list too, so I hope it's okay I'm using it for > discussing install experience stuff. (Someone let me know if I should > take it elsewhere; on that note if we stay here we should let the > anaconda-devel list know about the discussion if they want to monitor it.) > > I'm hoping with some help (and it looks like Rahul has volunteered > already; great! :) ) we can come up with a document listing out the > problems. It might take a couple weeks or so though. > > One problem I remember Jon showing me involved where you'd click a > cancel button to quit the process, and get stuck in a weird and > frightening (since it potentially involves your hard disk getting > written to) loop of cancel dialogs. > > I can't remember the other issues he showed me off-hand. I did see a lot > of basic surface-level usability issues (button alignment, button > labels, icon placement in the headers, badly-written explanatory text, > missing indication of progress so you had no idea how far you were and > how many steps were left to complete.) > >> From experience I think many users have a lot of anxiety during the > installation process. (Did I really get everything I wanted to back up > backed up? Is this going to screw up my computer? Am I going to make a > mistake I can't go back and fix?) Especially coming from the windows > world where they are used to the OS being pre-installed - they don't > have the experience of installation to call back on. So while the > surface-level usability issues I cited might seem minor, polishing those > can make a big difference in making these anxious users feel more > comfortable. > okay so when you use the word "Terrible" you really mean "somewhat unpolished"? B/c it doesn't sound to me like you're talking about massive changes to the interface or experience at all. I'm glad they can make a big difference but 'terrible' in my mind invokes a ground-up redo. What you've described doesn't sound like that at all. -sv From inode0 at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 15:27:59 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:27:59 -0500 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: 2009/10/21 M?ir?n Duffy : >From experience I think many users have a lot of anxiety during the > installation process. (Did I really get everything I wanted to back up > backed up? Is this going to screw up my computer? Am I going to make a > mistake I can't go back and fix?) Especially coming from the windows > world where they are used to the OS being pre-installed - they don't > have the experience of installation to call back on. So while the > surface-level usability issues I cited might seem minor, polishing those > can make a big difference in making these anxious users feel more > comfortable. While I probably don't fall exactly into this category of user there are a couple things that come to mind immediately that I don't like about the install process. The handling of media seems to be if we find it offer to use it. I think it would be better and safer for removable media to be unchecked (off limits by default) when it comes to setting up the disks for the install. I'm not sure how easy or hard it might be to identify things as usb sticks or SD cards but I do know having them eaten by accident is very annoying. My other quibble probably applies to very few people but I hate the requirement to create an initial non-root user without the ability to specify what special properties you want that user to have. For most they can be easily modified later but for those of us who care about the UID the user is assigned having to fix that later is another annoyance. I miss the old "I'll make a user later" button and would welcome and "advanced settings" button where more could be specified about the new user. John From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 15:24:15 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:24:15 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> Hi Seth, On 10/21/2009 11:07 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: > okay so when you use the word "Terrible" you really mean "somewhat > unpolished"? > B/c it doesn't sound to me like you're talking about massive changes to > the interface or experience at all. I'm glad they can make a big > difference but 'terrible' in my mind invokes a ground-up redo. What > you've described doesn't sound like that at all. Well, I think at this point not having gone through the UIs and done a bit of analysis, it was probably premature of me to make a judgement either way on the rate of terrible or not-so-terribleness. :) It's unpolished at a minimum if you look the poor examples I gave. I've attached an email I received from a very technical Java developer writing about his F11 install experience this past weekend, after remembering I had it. I would qualify it as being even worse than terrible which is probably why the word came to mind in the first place. :( ~m -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: f11-install-experience.txt URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 15:39:31 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:39:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Hi Seth, > > On 10/21/2009 11:07 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: >> okay so when you use the word "Terrible" you really mean "somewhat >> unpolished"? > >> B/c it doesn't sound to me like you're talking about massive changes to >> the interface or experience at all. I'm glad they can make a big >> difference but 'terrible' in my mind invokes a ground-up redo. What >> you've described doesn't sound like that at all. > > Well, I think at this point not having gone through the UIs and done a > bit of analysis, it was probably premature of me to make a judgement > either way on the rate of terrible or not-so-terribleness. :) It's > unpolished at a minimum if you look the poor examples I gave. > > I've attached an email I received from a very technical Java developer > writing about his F11 install experience this past weekend, after > remembering I had it. I would qualify it as being even worse than > terrible which is probably why the word came to mind in the first place. :( > None of that users issues seem like 'interface design' issues. They seem entirely like 'hardware issues' followed by 'not everything works' but I don't know how the interface design is at fault. Is it the fault of the interface that there's an issue with X on certain graphic cards? I guess I'm having trouble figuring out what you want to fix here. If the issue is the interface design - then great but I daresay the present interface is not "terrible". If the issue is you want all hardware to work no matter what then I think you're tilting at windmills. -sv From walters at verbum.org Wed Oct 21 15:40:15 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:40:15 +0000 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: 2009/10/21 M?ir?n Duffy : > > I've attached an email I received from a very technical Java developer > writing about his F11 install experience this past weekend, after > remembering I had it. I would qualify it as being even worse than > terrible which is probably why the word came to mind in the first place. :( The anaconda crashes aside, look like most of the serious problems were graphics driver related. I think the story particularly with nVidia will be notably better with F12. Personally I don't worry too much about this kind of thing because we have a fundamental disadvantage here of not being preinstalled with the computer. Ever tried to install Windows on a blank machine without having all the drivers beforehand? It sucks. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Oct 21 15:42:57 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:42:57 +0300 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4ADF2C01.8020703@nicubunu.ro> On 10/21/2009 06:24 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > I've attached an email I received from a very technical Java developer > writing about his F11 install experience this past weekend, after > remembering I had it. I would qualify it as being even worse than > terrible which is probably why the word came to mind in the first place. :( Yes, but his "terrible" experience is more with running F11 than installing it, he seems to have much more troubles with PulseAudio than Anaconda. The "install" problems were due to 1. bad video drivers (not really Anaconda) and 2. i guess the new storage rewrite (that one hit me too in F11 but seems solved in F12). -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 15:41:53 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:41:53 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 11:39 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: > None of that users issues seem like 'interface design' issues. They seem > entirely like 'hardware issues' followed by 'not everything works' but I > don't know how the interface design is at fault. Well, I'm not talking about interface design though, I'm talking about user experience. E.g., what I do isn't just mockups and icons, sometimes it's just mapping out how things work today and helping come out with a plan on how they *should* work to be better. Sometimes that involves a tiny amount of GUI work, but a lot of backend work. Or vice-versa. > Is it the fault of the interface that there's an issue with X on certain > graphic cards? We know Nvidia sucks. In fact, myself and others who replied to this developer instantly identified after asking him what hardware he was running that his Nvidia video card was likely the culprit. But how could we expect him to know that? Hardware incompatibility is a fact of life for that, and that's okay. I don't think we should wait until the end of time for those issues to be sorted out. But if we know Nvidia cards tend to cause a bad experience, couldn't we have detected the card early on, and maybe presented some kind of, 'Hey, you've got this piece of hardware. It might cause you some issues. You might want to check this wiki page (or whatever) for a list of common problems and workarounds for this card. Sorry that this had to make your experience with us a little bumpy, but let's get you around it!' Same with the anaconda crashes he was having in the partitioning screen. Apparently it was a known issue: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bugs/Common#Installation_fails_with_DeviceError:_cannot_commit_to_disk_sda_after_5_attempts How could we expect him to know to even look for the known issues wiki page? How would he know it existed? Could we do something to maybe highlight that page as pre-requisite reading before install a well or at least point out its existence in case of FAIL? Sure, maybe this just means adding some information or links to the get.fpo page. But maybe there's a way involving the installer UI itself that we can address the problem. > I guess I'm having trouble figuring out what you want to fix here. > > If the issue is the interface design - then great but I daresay the > present interface is not "terrible". > > If the issue is you want all hardware to work no matter what then I > think you're tilting at windmills. Does the above make more sense? ~m From walters at verbum.org Wed Oct 21 16:17:11 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:17:11 +0000 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: 2009/10/21 M?ir?n Duffy : > > Hardware incompatibility is a fact of life for that, and that's okay. I > don't think we should wait until the end of time for those issues to be > sorted out. But if we know Nvidia cards tend to cause a bad experience, > couldn't we have detected the card early on, and maybe presented some > kind of, 'Hey, you've got this piece of hardware. It might cause you > some issues. You might want to check this wiki page (or whatever) for a > list of common problems and workarounds for this card. Sorry that this > had to make your experience with us a little bumpy, but let's get you > around it!' Well...it's tricky because this stuff changes so rapidly, and we may simply not know how well a particular card works with a particular version of the driver. Then of course multiply that matrix by configuration like multihead... I guess a lot comes down to the details. Are we just special casing PCI vendor == nvidia? Or something more elaborate? Graphics is especially tricky, because linking to a wiki page is obviously problematic if the driver is failing entirely, since you wouldn't be able to see our error page... In the end graphics just has to work. I think we should spend time on big picture issues that impact all users (e.g. root password, upgrade experience); there's a lot of great work going on by all accounts in the nouveau driver, and it's likely F12 would work better for him already. > Same with the anaconda crashes he was having in the partitioning screen. > Apparently it was a known issue: > > > > How could we expect him to know to even look for the known issues wiki > page? How would he know it existed? This one is much more targeted would probably be fairly easy to do. Doesn't anaconda already have a crash handler that submits to bugzilla? We'd just need a link on the bugzilla page for anaconda to its common bugs list in the wiki. From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 16:57:22 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:57:22 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 12:17 PM, Colin Walters wrote: > Well...it's tricky because this stuff changes so rapidly, and we may > simply not know how well a particular card works with a particular > version of the driver. Then of course multiply that matrix by > configuration like multihead... > > I guess a lot comes down to the details. Are we just special casing > PCI vendor == nvidia? Or something more elaborate? Nvidia has sucked for a really long time though. I bet if you ask around we could come up with a decent set of heuristics for which hardware devices cause the most angst, maybe maintain some sort of list and if one of them is detected we give the users a fair warning. I think we really need to set expectations for new users, from their decision point to try to download Fedora, to running the live media, to installing it for real, to running it. Somewhere in that process I think we need to be giving them more fair warning. If we set them up to expect it will just work (which we basically do today) we get people very upset as in the mail I shared. This person, by the way, works on open source software and is highly technical. We keep talking about breaking out of the technical-person niche for Fedora, but we're failing even there. > Graphics is especially tricky, because linking to a wiki page is > obviously problematic if the driver is failing entirely, since you > wouldn't be able to see our error page... Right, so in that case the implication might be we add some kind of warning to the webpage so the user sees it even before starting the install process. For other issues it might be more visible to place it in the installer itself maybe. (These are just off-the-cuff ideas though!) > > In the end graphics just has to work. I think we should spend time on > big picture issues that impact all users (e.g. root password, upgrade > experience); there's a lot of great work going on by all accounts in > the nouveau driver, and it's likely F12 would work better for him > already. But for my friend I posted the email from, he'll never get the chance to appreciate that work if he gives up the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd install attempt... if he at least knew ahead of time what to expect it could have carried him through the 4 or 5 attempts he did make with a lot more confidence. > >> Same with the anaconda crashes he was having in the partitioning screen. >> Apparently it was a known issue: >> >> >> >> How could we expect him to know to even look for the known issues wiki >> page? How would he know it existed? > > This one is much more targeted would probably be fairly easy to do. > Doesn't anaconda already have a crash handler that submits to > bugzilla? We'd just need a link on the bugzilla page for anaconda to > its common bugs list in the wiki. I can ask him if a crash handler popped up for him but he seemed to indicate not. ~m From notting at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 17:24:19 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:24:19 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256076384.16609.240.camel@wicktop.localdomain> References: <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE14DA.20705@fedoraproject.org> <20091020200130.GE3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256076384.16609.240.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Message-ID: <20091021172418.GB1815@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Christoph Wickert (christoph.wickert at googlemail.com) said: > > how am I supposed to know that they actually have only one or two > > active development members, as you state? > > >From the mail I wrote 40 minutes before you wrote yours for example > [1]. ;) > > And if this is not enough: from the wiki, from package-db, > fedora-commits-list, fedora-package-review... there are lots of ways if > you really care. Yes, but the wiki pages (until they were changed yesterday) listed these people, without any information of who did what. I think it's a fair statement that a random person (who may not be tagging packages, or whatever) would just look at the SIG page and take it at face value, without going into data-mining the commits list, package review, etc. Bill From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 17:37:18 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:07:18 +0530 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <20091021172418.GB1815@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4ADDFCA1.5070306@kanarip.com> <20091020181114.GA2883@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256062394.1803.71.camel@planemask> <1256064760.2102.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091020191332.GA3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE11F7.9060507@fedoraproject.org> <20091020195001.GD3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <4ADE14DA.20705@fedoraproject.org> <20091020200130.GE3432@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256076384.16609.240.camel@wicktop.localdomain> <20091021172418.GB1815@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4ADF46CE.4040405@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 10:54 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Christoph Wickert (christoph.wickert at googlemail.com) said: >>> how am I supposed to know that they actually have only one or two >>> active development members, as you state? >> >> >From the mail I wrote 40 minutes before you wrote yours for example >> [1]. ;) >> >> And if this is not enough: from the wiki, from package-db, >> fedora-commits-list, fedora-package-review... there are lots of ways if >> you really care. > > Yes, but the wiki pages (until they were changed yesterday) listed > these people, without any information of who did what. I think it's > a fair statement that a random person (who may not be tagging packages, > or whatever) would just look at the SIG page and take it at face > value, without going into data-mining the commits list, package > review, etc. Yes, fair point so I fixed it. So we can all happily accept that the Xfce or LXDE SIG's are not comparable to the Desktop SIG atleast now. Rahul From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 17:59:15 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:59:15 -0700 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256147955.2314.395.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 15:40 +0000, Colin Walters wrote: > 2009/10/21 M?ir?n Duffy : > > > > I've attached an email I received from a very technical Java developer > > writing about his F11 install experience this past weekend, after > > remembering I had it. I would qualify it as being even worse than > > terrible which is probably why the word came to mind in the first place. :( > > The anaconda crashes aside, look like most of the serious problems > were graphics driver related. I think the story particularly with > nVidia will be notably better with F12. > > Personally I don't worry too much about this kind of thing because we > have a fundamental disadvantage here of not being preinstalled with > the computer. Ever tried to install Windows on a blank machine > without having all the drivers beforehand? It sucks. Right, these were simple code bugs, not process interaction problems. It'd be nice if you could ask the guy to let us know if the blank screen bug persists in F12 (ask him to boot the F12 live CD, if he's got a bit of time to try it). The problem he had with partitioning - F11 was the first release with the anaconda storage rewrite included, it was known to be relatively buggy in that area, unfortunately. Again, if he can test with F12 and see if he still has problems it'd be very helpful. But none of that seems particularly related to any design / interface issues, and not really on-topic for this list. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From stickster at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 18:00:54 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:00:54 -0400 Subject: UI Discussion In-Reply-To: <4ADEB26C.8050901@nicubunu.ro> References: <1256078419.30673.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADEB26C.8050901@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <20091021180054.GW933@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:04:12AM +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > On 10/21/2009 01:40 AM, Owen Taylor wrote: > > > > - How does the Fedora desktop work you? That's legitimate, just > > remember, you are not even a typical Fedora user, much less a > > typical computer user. So, discussion from this perspective > > is best if you can suggest ways that make Fedora better for > > you *and everyone else*. > > Considering Fedora has a defined target audience > (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Is_Fedora_For_Me) which is *not* > 'everybody', I think people subscribed to this list are pretty much > typical Fedora users. Given that very discussion is ongoing, I think that page is not as authoritative as it might seem at first glance. Personally, I'm pretty sure the people on this list are not typical Fedora users, although they may be more typical Fedora *contributors*. (And certainly appreciated for that.) > >If you want to be part of the Fedora desktop team, don't worry about > >whether you are being consulted on every individual decision. Nobody is, > >whether they have a @redhat email or not. Worry about what you can be > >working on to make the desktop better. If you doing cool things to make > >the desktop better and you are being ignored, and you aren't getting > >those cool things in, complain! And if you want to help, and have the > >time and skills to help, and its not clear what you should be doing to > >help, complain about that too. > > But people outside of a small group are often made to not feel > welcomed so after a while you stop bothering to try. "Every passing minute is another chance to turn it all around." It would be great if we could turn this conversation into a constructive effort to help make communication and collaboration better. Owen's email was a great step in that direction and I hope we can keep the discussion focused on that effort. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 17:58:08 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:58:08 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <1256147955.2314.395.camel@adam.local.net> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <1256147955.2314.395.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <4ADF4BB0.7010905@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 01:59 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > But none of that seems particularly related to any design / interface > issues, and not really on-topic for this list. Design/interface perhaps not. User experience, yes. ~m From ajax at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 18:02:31 2009 From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:02:31 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256148151.15835.6484.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 10:44 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote: > On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > Jon showed me last week how terrible our live media install experience > > is. We definitely need to identify all the issues and work through ways > > of improving it. > > Can you list the ways the live media install experience is bad? I'm not > familiar with this list and I'm curious about it. You don't get package or repo selection. Therefore you also don't get to install straight from updates, so there's an update cycle after rebooting. Filesystem choice is limited to whatever the live image itself is, so no btrfs for you. The packages you get are _also_ limited to whatever the live image itself is, which is arbitrarily constrained by needing to fit on a CD. You could solve this by separating the notions of "live test drive media" and "live installer", and in the latter case you could ship actual RPMs to install from. Alternatively, you could do the initial glorified parted+dd+resize2fs and then run package selection like a normal anaconda upgrade, although that still doesn't give you filesystem selection. You could get filesystem selection by replacing the dd bit with a tar/untar pipeline, but you'd probably make the actual install slower in the process (although, who knows by how much). If you're really crazy, you could do essentially half of deltarpm to recreate the "local" rpms as an on-the-fly repo, and then drive the entire rest of the experience like normal, package/filesystem choice and all [1]. Again, probably going to be slower than dd, but would require no additional space on the media. Also, though this gets a little away from the anaconda experience proper: booting a CD really is slow, and we're doing users a disservice by not suggesting USB keys or even just burning to DVD (leaving aside the issues of size). [1] - Yes, I'm aware of the non-idempotency implied by scriptlets, and I'm choosing to plug my ears and/or require that any packages on the live media need to be QA-checked for sanity on that axis. - ajax -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 18:08:37 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:08:37 -0700 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 12:57 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On 10/21/2009 12:17 PM, Colin Walters wrote: > > Well...it's tricky because this stuff changes so rapidly, and we may > > simply not know how well a particular card works with a particular > > version of the driver. Then of course multiply that matrix by > > configuration like multihead... > > > > I guess a lot comes down to the details. Are we just special casing > > PCI vendor == nvidia? Or something more elaborate? > > Nvidia has sucked for a really long time though. But we've only started fixing it recently. We only went to the new nouveau driver for F11, and it has received a huge load of fixes for F12. Prior to F11, we were using the entirely different nv driver. This is the kind of thing Colin means when he says 'this stuff changes so rapidly'. Probably for F12 and almost certainly for F13, I'd by no means agree with the proposition that there's a significantly higher chance Fedora will fail on NVIDIA graphics than any other type. Popping up some kind of warning for anyone with an NVIDIA card would be a bad idea, I think - I can't give you really concrete numbers but I'd expect we're only completely failing on a single-digit percentage of all the NVIDIA adapters out there, probably under 5%. We completely fail on some Intel and AMD adapters too - probably in the same percentage range - so do we just pop up a warning for everyone? We'd be popping up warnings around the clock. As Colin says, Fedora's general philosophy is and has historically been that it's more important to fix the bugs than to worry about temporary bodges and workarounds for the immediate experience. This is something of a function of Fedora's identity, and I'm not sure whether we want to change it significantly. When I was at Mandriva I was much more to the 'let's bodge around this to create the best possible user experience for this particular release' side of things, but that approach does have its penalties: the bodges pile up on top of each other like there's no tomorrow (ldetect-lst...grrk) and the person-hours that go into writing and maintaining and checking the bodges are time that could have gone elsewhere. > I bet if you ask around > we could come up with a decent set of heuristics for which hardware > devices cause the most angst, maybe maintain some sort of list and if > one of them is detected we give the users a fair warning. Well, yeah, we could. It would be very icky and give a lot of false positives. It would take constant ongoing maintenance. As I said, I'm not sure it's the kind of direction we want to move Fedora development in. > > Graphics is especially tricky, because linking to a wiki page is > > obviously problematic if the driver is failing entirely, since you > > wouldn't be able to see our error page... > > Right, so in that case the implication might be we add some kind of > warning to the webpage so the user sees it even before starting the > install process. For other issues it might be more visible to place it > in the installer itself maybe. (These are just off-the-cuff ideas though!) On this specific issue I think it's something we can improve. The 'common issues' page is sort of my baby now (it was around for F10 and earlier releases but I substantially expanded and revised the format and content for F11 and am working on it for F12 too). I maintained a similar page at Mandriva for each release (called the 'Errata' there) and found that by consistently documenting issues there and referring to it in public discussion and release documentation it became a well-known reference source which most users would refer to habitually. That's kind of my endgame for the common issues page. I'm already trying to ensure it's mentioned in release announcements - it was in the Fedora 12 Beta release announcement, for instance - and encourage people to add issues to it and refer to it when doing forum support, IRC support and so on. It would certainly be nice to have it referenced in the install process too. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From walters at verbum.org Wed Oct 21 18:22:05 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:22:05 +0000 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > > As Colin says, Fedora's general philosophy is and has historically been > that it's more important to fix the bugs than to worry about temporary > bodges and workarounds for the immediate experience. Well, sort of. I don't think it's wrong to add a workaround or warning box in some situations even it's ugly; more what I'm saying in this particular case of graphics drivers is the payoff to engineering time ratio is really small. The get-fedora page or the docs should make clear that if the Live system[1] doesn't work, it won't work when installed either. [1] I really hate calling it "Live", it should be *the* image. From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 18:21:17 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:21:17 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <4ADF511D.2070501@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 02:08 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > As Colin says, Fedora's general philosophy is and has historically been > that it's more important to fix the bugs than to worry about temporary > bodges and workarounds for the immediate experience. This is something > of a function of Fedora's identity, and I'm not sure whether we want to > change it significantly. When I was at Mandriva I was much more to the > 'let's bodge around this to create the best possible user experience for > this particular release' side of things, but that approach does have its > penalties: the bodges pile up on top of each other like there's no > tomorrow (ldetect-lst...grrk) and the person-hours that go into writing > and maintaining and checking the bodges are time that could have gone > elsewhere. These are great points. We definitely don't want build bandaid upon bandaid upon bandaid of cruft. Generally speaking, no matter what the specifics are of the issue the users might run into, do you think the following ideas make sense: - having an area in get fedora, perhaps the proposed post-download splash (https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/f/fb/Getfpo-downloadfinishsplash_1.png), perhaps even further up front, where as issues with the installation process (and general experience post-install) are reported, they are listed with workarounds right there - similar to the above, but have the actual installer some how (i don't know how yet) give you some fair warning or suggestion when things go around (things like Colin's bugzilla idea) So maybe we don't hard code nvidia, or maybe on a server somewhere there's a listing based on reports that anaconda could try to connect to and if it detects something... or maybe it's all documentation, there's no HW detection involved. I don't know. It's hard to suggest specific ideas to solve the problems before we've gone through the process of completely combing it and identifying all the problems in play here. > >> I bet if you ask around >> we could come up with a decent set of heuristics for which hardware >> devices cause the most angst, maybe maintain some sort of list and if >> one of them is detected we give the users a fair warning. > > Well, yeah, we could. It would be very icky and give a lot of false > positives. It would take constant ongoing maintenance. As I said, I'm > not sure it's the kind of direction we want to move Fedora development > in. I just want to note that AFAIK no rigorous analysis of the user experience has occurred so it might be a little premature to apply to off-the-cuff ideas. :) Maybe what I threw out there isn't a great solution - totally cool, at this stage it's good to pose lots of ideas and be willing to throw ideas out - use the bad ideas as brain food to come up with better ones rather than just say no no no :) I think the install user experience is something that could be improved using design thinking, so I just threw out that idea in an attempt to give a specific example of how it may implicate actual interface changes to the installer. (It may not, and that's fine too!) >>> Graphics is especially tricky, because linking to a wiki page is >>> obviously problematic if the driver is failing entirely, since you >>> wouldn't be able to see our error page... >> >> Right, so in that case the implication might be we add some kind of >> warning to the webpage so the user sees it even before starting the >> install process. For other issues it might be more visible to place it >> in the installer itself maybe. (These are just off-the-cuff ideas though!) > > On this specific issue I think it's something we can improve. The > 'common issues' page is sort of my baby now (it was around for F10 and > earlier releases but I substantially expanded and revised the format and > content for F11 and am working on it for F12 too). I maintained a > similar page at Mandriva for each release (called the 'Errata' there) > and found that by consistently documenting issues there and referring to > it in public discussion and release documentation it became a well-known > reference source which most users would refer to habitually. That's kind > of my endgame for the common issues page. I'm already trying to ensure > it's mentioned in release announcements - it was in the Fedora 12 Beta > release announcement, for instance - and encourage people to add issues > to it and refer to it when doing forum support, IRC support and so on. > It would certainly be nice to have it referenced in the install process > too. Yep. I think it's an *excellent* improvement to the install user experience right now that the page is even available. I think as part of this project I'm proposing, we should look at how we can make it more visible and useful for folks like my friend so he could have noticed the workarounds before wasting so much time and suffering so much pain! How did the similar page work in Mandriva? How did you folks broadcast it to your user base then? Was it pulled into any apps or marketed in any way we might be able to learn from? ~m From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 18:21:52 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:51:52 +0530 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <4ADF5140.1090002@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 11:52 PM, Colin Walters wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: >> >> As Colin says, Fedora's general philosophy is and has historically been >> that it's more important to fix the bugs than to worry about temporary >> bodges and workarounds for the immediate experience. > > Well, sort of. I don't think it's wrong to add a workaround or > warning box in some situations even it's ugly; more what I'm saying in > this particular case of graphics drivers is the payoff to engineering > time ratio is really small. > > The get-fedora page or the docs should make clear that if the Live > system[1] doesn't work, it won't work when installed either. > > [1] I really hate calling it "Live", it should be *the* image. Magazines like to distribute the DVD images because in many places, getting big packages like Openoffice.org off the internet is not really feasible. The Live CD is a very bare bones system and doesn't give a good experience to first time users. They are missing critical packages. Rahul From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 18:30:11 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:30:11 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <939dd5750910211130w4d996a1bu804c9faf78627496@mail.gmail.com> Hey, On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Colin Walters wrote: > [1] I really hate calling it "Live", it should be *the* image. Yeah. For me a rule of thumb for this kind of messaging is to always ask "as opposed to what?" If I'm a consumer and I see "Live Image" with no other context - I say as opposed to... "dead?" And of course, we know that isn't the case. It is, actually, as opposed to the "older technology that just runs an installer but not in the familiar desktop environment but may be better for servers but we don't know exactly why and no one looks at anymore and oh yeah it does upgrades" CD/DVD. Oh yeah - silly me. Jon From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 18:36:28 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:36:28 -0700 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF511D.2070501@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADF511D.2070501@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256150188.2314.411.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 14:21 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > These are great points. We definitely don't want build bandaid upon > bandaid upon bandaid of cruft. > > Generally speaking, no matter what the specifics are of the issue the > users might run into, do you think the following ideas make sense: > > - having an area in get fedora, perhaps the proposed post-download > splash > (https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/f/fb/Getfpo-downloadfinishsplash_1.png), > perhaps even further up front, where as issues with the installation > process (and general experience post-install) are reported, they are > listed with workarounds right there > > - similar to the above, but have the actual installer some how (i don't > know how yet) give you some fair warning or suggestion when things go > around (things like Colin's bugzilla idea) > > So maybe we don't hard code nvidia, or maybe on a server somewhere > there's a listing based on reports that anaconda could try to connect to > and if it detects something... or maybe it's all documentation, there's > no HW detection involved. I don't know. It's hard to suggest specific > ideas to solve the problems before we've gone through the process of > completely combing it and identifying all the problems in play here. I think simplicity and generic-ness are are friends here. Having the common bugs page and release notes prominently highlighted during the install experience seem to address a lot of the issues, or at least start to, for me. It should be relatively easy for the post-download splash to include or link to the 'Installation issues' section of the common bugs page, for instance. > Yep. I think it's an *excellent* improvement to the install user > experience right now that the page is even available. I think as part of > this project I'm proposing, we should look at how we can make it more > visible and useful for folks like my friend so he could have noticed the > workarounds before wasting so much time and suffering so much pain! > > How did the similar page work in Mandriva? How did you folks broadcast > it to your user base then? Was it pulled into any apps or marketed in > any way we might be able to learn from? The actual layout of the page is much like the Fedora one, really, there's no significant difference. It was explicitly linked to (along with the release notes) in the installer. Any release communication included references either direct to the release notes and errata, or a link to the general page for the release (like this one: http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2009.0 ), which itself links to the errata and release notes. I did a lot of IRC and forum support and would always link to the errata page entry for any issue that came up, if there was one. Together, all of these seemed to get the page into the 'collective consciousness' so I'd often see other people on IRC and in comment threads and so on referring to the errata page. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 18:37:46 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:37:46 -0700 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1256150266.2314.413.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 18:22 +0000, Colin Walters wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > As Colin says, Fedora's general philosophy is and has historically been > > that it's more important to fix the bugs than to worry about temporary > > bodges and workarounds for the immediate experience. > > Well, sort of. I don't think it's wrong to add a workaround or > warning box in some situations even it's ugly; more what I'm saying in > this particular case of graphics drivers is the payoff to engineering > time ratio is really small. Yeah, it's always a trade-off. For instance, we did set up the Xorg auto-detection routines in F11 to use vesa rather than nouveau for a few chips which we knew there was no chance we'd be able to support properly during the F11 cycle. As you say, it'd be more accurate to say that Fedora places the bar for considering it sensible to build workarounds / warning boxes and so on fairly high. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 18:37:24 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:37:24 -0700 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <939dd5750910211130w4d996a1bu804c9faf78627496@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> <939dd5750910211130w4d996a1bu804c9faf78627496@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1256150244.4242.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 14:30 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: > > If I'm a consumer and I see "Live Image" with no other context - I say > as opposed to... "dead?" And of course, we know that isn't the case. > It is, actually, as opposed to the "older technology that just runs an > installer but not in the familiar desktop environment but may be > better for servers but we don't know exactly why and no one looks at > anymore and oh yeah it does upgrades" CD/DVD. Oh yeah - silly me. > Selectable filesystems, selectable packages, updates at install time, install over the network, upgrades, yeah that image. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 18:34:46 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:34:46 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <939dd5750910211130w4d996a1bu804c9faf78627496@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> <939dd5750910211130w4d996a1bu804c9faf78627496@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADF5446.8040103@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 02:30 PM, William Jon McCann wrote: > If I'm a consumer and I see "Live Image" with no other context - I say > as opposed to... "dead?" And of course, we know that isn't the case. > It is, actually, as opposed to the "older technology that just runs an > installer but not in the familiar desktop environment but may be > better for servers but we don't know exactly why and no one looks at > anymore and oh yeah it does upgrades" CD/DVD. Oh yeah - silly me. Great points. Also, in some of the website design stuff I've been doing for fpo it seems we do have a bit of a naming nightmare - live image live media live usb live cd spins These terms are at points used synonymously and at other points exclusively. If I didn't know the nuances of what each meant I'd be super, super confused trying to do anything with Fedora I think. ~m From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 19:04:07 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:04:07 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <1256150244.4242.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> <939dd5750910211130w4d996a1bu804c9faf78627496@mail.gmail.com> <1256150244.4242.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4ADF5B27.3040407@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 02:37 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 14:30 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: >> >> If I'm a consumer and I see "Live Image" with no other context - I say >> as opposed to... "dead?" And of course, we know that isn't the case. >> It is, actually, as opposed to the "older technology that just runs an >> installer but not in the familiar desktop environment but may be >> better for servers but we don't know exactly why and no one looks at >> anymore and oh yeah it does upgrades" CD/DVD. Oh yeah - silly me. >> > > Selectable filesystems, selectable packages, updates at install time, > install over the network, upgrades, yeah that image. So here's a list of installer requirements I've extrapolated from some of the discussion here and from some past experience I've had with the installer: - I need to be able to pick what file system the computer will use. - I need to be able to indicate whether or not the file system will be encrypted. - I need to be able to indicate some file systems be encrypted and others not. - I need to be able to install the latest software available even if that involves installing software that isn't on the install media but available online. - I need to be able to install without an internet connection, or at least without taking up too much bandwidth. - I need to install over the network. - I would prefer to install using a familiar desktop environment. - I need to install to advanced storage devices, including networked storage devices. - I need to install Fedora on a dual- or triple-boot machine. That may involve Windows, or other Linuxes. - I need to be able to install to a virtual host (the machine in front of me.) - I need to be able to install to a virtual host (a machine in my data center over there) - I need to be able to install in an unattended and reproducible manner. - I need to be able to install to one machine today. - I need to be able to install 500 machines in a number of days. - I need to be able to install 50 machines daily. (eg computer lab) - I don't know much about hard drive partitioning and I'd prefer to be able to install without digging into that. - I need to be able to set up a very specific partitioning layout. - I need to be able to set up a specific LVM configuration during install. - I need to be able to set up RAID on my install. - I need my system to use a static IP. - I don't speak English, and I need to install. - I don't have a us_en keyboard and I need to install. - I don't need to create a non-root user. - I don't know much about security and would prefer my computer to be set up to be as secure as possible out-of-the-box (non root user?) - I need to be able to configure a custom bootloader. - I need to set a password on my bootloader. - I need to install packages from a third-party repo during install. - I need to be able to verify my install media. - I need to install to removable media. - I would prefer to upgrade my system in-place so I don't need to set everything up from scratch again. - I'm a visually-impaired user and need to be able to install. - I need to interactively install a machine over the network. These statements are clearly being made by people with different needs / contexts. Can we call out which ones are more general and which ones are more specialized? (Do you think that would be a useful exercise?) ~m From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 19:25:17 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:25:17 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256153117.1797.5.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 11:39 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote: > > I guess I'm having trouble figuring out what you want to fix here. > > If the issue is the interface design - then great but I daresay the > present interface is not "terrible". > > If the issue is you want all hardware to work no matter what then I think > you're tilting at windmills. Since you are asking, here is a bunch of interface issues I reported recently: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=529262 empty initial page https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=529267 Better label+icon for the installer on the livecd https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=529268 flow bugs There's plenty more to report. But instead of filing a ton of bugs about UI details, I think would be far more effective to take a step back and discuss the install-from-livecd experience we want. From walters at verbum.org Wed Oct 21 19:46:40 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:46:40 +0000 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <1256150244.4242.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> <939dd5750910211130w4d996a1bu804c9faf78627496@mail.gmail.com> <1256150244.4242.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 14:30 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: >> >> If I'm a consumer and I see "Live Image" with no other context - I say >> as opposed to... "dead?" ?And of course, we know that isn't the case. >> It is, actually, as opposed to the "older technology that just runs an >> installer but not in the familiar desktop environment but may be >> better for servers but we don't know exactly why and no one looks at >> anymore and oh yeah it does upgrades" CD/DVD. ?Oh yeah - silly me. >> > > Selectable filesystems, selectable packages, updates at install time, > install over the network, upgrades, yeah that image. Rather that talk about this again in email, I created a wiki page here with some thoughts on how we could bring the benefits of both together: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UnifiedInstaller I'm sure there would be a lot of opportunity for optimization if we shipped .rpm files on the live image, but then again we have 4+ gigabytes. From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 20:27:03 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:27:03 -0400 Subject: desktop spin page content? Message-ID: <4ADF6E97.5090801@fedoraproject.org> Hi folks, So as part of the ongoing Fedora web redesign, we made a design for a full revamp of spins.fedoraproject.org to have a spins directory with details pages for each spin. Here's the mockups for that site: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009/Mockups/Spins.fpo I was wondering if the desktop spin should get a page on there as well? I put it in the directory mockups. But it is the default spin, so maybe it doesn't need a spins page? I'm not really sure what's the right call. What do you think? The timeline on this is really tight (sorry for that) so I was hoping to get an idea of what to do by next Monday if at all possible. If you *do* think it should get its own page on there, can someone help me come up with content for it? Here's a listing of the content I need (by next Tuesday? is that do-able?) that I received from the spins SIG for the other spins: - A slogan for your spin to serve as the heading for the home page. The sample one I came up for KDE is: "It's your desktop. Be free." If you need helping coming up with one I'm happy to help. - At least a paragraph describing what your spin is used for, who your spin is for, what unique features it has - that kind of information. This will also go on the home tab. - A representative screenshot for your spin. - For the downloads tab, if you'd like custom text to describe the spin download, let me know. Otherwise I'll use the defaults in this mockup: https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/c/ce/Spin-details-download.png - For the support tab, I'd like to know what IRC channels or other live support options users have for your spin (if any), what mailing lists / forums / non-live support options users have for your spin (if any), and what documentation would you like to highlight to new users. An example is shown here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Spin-details-support.png - Finally, I'd like to create some custom branding for each spin, so the different spins pages are distinguishable from one another. You can see in this KDE spin mockup, I did a bar above the tabs that has the KDE logo. Let me know what kind of graphic you'd like for your spin ASAP and I can come up with mockups: https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/3/31/Spin-details-home.png The mockups for the Fedora Electronic Lab spins page are really fleshed-out and are probably a good example of how the above information is going to be used: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009/Mockups/Spins.fpo#Fedora_Electronic_Lab_Spins_Mockups I'm *really* sorry I didn't think to send you something sooner. I mailed the spins SIG list a couple weeks ago and made a few blog posts to Fedora planet, but I didn't even think about the special case of the desktop spin. ~m From a.badger at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 21:54:49 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:54:49 -0700 Subject: desktop spin page content? In-Reply-To: <4ADF6E97.5090801@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF6E97.5090801@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20091021215449.GD7460@clingman.lan> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 04:27:03PM -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > I was wondering if the desktop spin should get a page on there as well? > I put it in the directory mockups. But it is the default spin, so maybe > it doesn't need a spins page? I'm not really sure what's the right call. > What do you think? The timeline on this is really tight (sorry for that) > so I was hoping to get an idea of what to do by next Monday if at all > possible. > I think it should since the get fedora pages are more about Fedora in general than what differentiates the Desktop Spin from the other spins. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 22:11:47 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:11:47 -0400 Subject: desktop spin page content? In-Reply-To: <4ADF6E97.5090801@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF6E97.5090801@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <939dd5750910211511l657db744jeff13d0c0f662c19@mail.gmail.com> Hi Mo, 2009/10/21 M?ir?n Duffy : > I was wondering if the desktop spin should get a page on there as well? > I put it in the directory mockups. But it is the default spin, so maybe > it doesn't need a spins page? I'm not really sure what's the right call. > What do you think? The timeline on this is really tight (sorry for that) > so I was hoping to get an idea of what to do by next Monday if at all > possible. Yeah I'm worried about our messaging if we distribute the OS from a default branded site and then have info on a spins site. I'd prefer to see all the resources use Fedora branding. > If you *do* think it should get its own page on there, can someone help > me come up with content for it? Here's a listing of the content I need > (by next Tuesday? is that do-able?) that I received from the spins SIG > for the other spins: I'd like to chat about this tomorrow if you have time. One thing we'd really like to have for F12 is a default page for the browser with stuff like more apps and backgrounds and stuff. Jon From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 22:18:39 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:18:39 -0400 Subject: Tomorrows polish In-Reply-To: <4ADF0BFA.40707@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> <4ADEBA5A.20705@kanarip.com> <1256123053.1803.98.camel@planemask> <4ADF0BFA.40707@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256163519.1797.55.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 09:26 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On 10/21/2009 07:04 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > >> I'm not sure I like the light-gray; how would light-blue look (that was > >> your other suggestion, right?). > > > > Umm. This was supposed to be the light blue. Maybe it is not blue > > enough... > > I sent blue values to Jon last night (attached). #a9bed5 for the border, > #e7f3fd for the fill. That screenshot you sent is definitely not blue; > it's a pale purple. > You may need to take of the pink glasses ? :-) Anyway, I have put some more work into this (also making metacity tooltips follow this style, and make the metacity compositor not put a shadow on the shaped tooltips). New builds are in koji: gtk2-2.8.3-6.fc12 gtk2-engines-2.18.4-3.fc12 metacity-2.28.0-4.fc12 if you want to try them out. Thanks for the feedback. From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Oct 21 22:30:09 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:30:09 -0700 Subject: Tomorrows polish In-Reply-To: <1256163519.1797.55.camel@planemask> References: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> <4ADEBA5A.20705@kanarip.com> <1256123053.1803.98.camel@planemask> <4ADF0BFA.40707@fedoraproject.org> <1256163519.1797.55.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256164209.2314.440.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 18:18 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 09:26 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > On 10/21/2009 07:04 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > >> I'm not sure I like the light-gray; how would light-blue look (that was > > >> your other suggestion, right?). > > > > > > Umm. This was supposed to be the light blue. Maybe it is not blue > > > enough... > > > > I sent blue values to Jon last night (attached). #a9bed5 for the border, > > #e7f3fd for the fill. That screenshot you sent is definitely not blue; > > it's a pale purple. > > > > You may need to take of the pink glasses ? :-) I *really* hope everyone working on this is using a properly colour-calibrated display? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From johannbg at hi.is Wed Oct 21 22:56:15 2009 From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:56:15 +0000 Subject: desktop spin page content? In-Reply-To: <20091021215449.GD7460@clingman.lan> References: <4ADF6E97.5090801@fedoraproject.org> <20091021215449.GD7460@clingman.lan> Message-ID: <4ADF918F.1030600@hi.is> On 10/21/2009 09:54 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 04:27:03PM -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > >> I was wondering if the desktop spin should get a page on there as well? >> I put it in the directory mockups. But it is the default spin, so maybe >> it doesn't need a spins page? I'm not really sure what's the right call. >> What do you think? The timeline on this is really tight (sorry for that) >> so I was hoping to get an idea of what to do by next Monday if at all >> possible. >> >> > I think it should since the get fedora pages are more about Fedora in > general than what differentiates the Desktop Spin from the other spins. > I think we should not.. In fact I think we should rename the desktop spin to Fedora-Gnome-Desktop spin and say we should not as the Fedora project choose one DE or application over another. Let the DE compete among them selves on even grounds. JBG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 23:57:05 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:57:05 -0400 Subject: desktop spin page content? In-Reply-To: <4ADF918F.1030600@hi.is> References: <4ADF6E97.5090801@fedoraproject.org> <20091021215449.GD7460@clingman.lan> <4ADF918F.1030600@hi.is> Message-ID: <4ADF9FD1.7010200@fedoraproject.org> Hi J?hann! On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:56:15 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" > I think we should not.. > > In fact I think we should rename the desktop spin to > Fedora-Gnome-Desktop spin and say we should not as the Fedora project > choose one DE or application over another. > > Let the DE compete among them selves on even grounds. I think you've probably missed a lot of context here, and I can easily see how you might draw this conclusion not having been aware of it. For a quick summary, the Fedora Board stated a requirement of providing one download for new Fedora users on get.fedoraproject.org, so we can avoid overwhelming them with choices. As the designer assigned to help meet that requirement, I strongly agree with it, and a design has been proposed and already set into motion over the past 3 months or so. These designs were posted on the Fedora wiki, Planet Fedora, and many various Fedora mailing lists including the websites list, spins list, logistics list, advisory board list, and I believe the design-team list too. All of the spin maintainers have well aware of these designs for some time now, and after some lengthy discussion even the KDE SIG is willing to give the new design a try to see how it performs. If you would like specific references to any of these previous discussions, please email me privately and I will be more than happy to provide you URLs. If you have concerns with that decision, the proper way to express that concern is to address the Board directly, since they set the requirement. This list just isn't the right place, and right now we're on a tight deadline so we need to stay focused on making a decision here so I can meet my deliverables, which the websites team is depending on. I really appreciate your understanding on this! :) ~m From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Oct 21 23:57:16 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:57:16 -0400 Subject: Tomorrows polish In-Reply-To: <1256164209.2314.440.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> <4ADEBA5A.20705@kanarip.com> <1256123053.1803.98.camel@planemask> <4ADF0BFA.40707@fedoraproject.org> <1256163519.1797.55.camel@planemask> <1256164209.2314.440.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <4ADF9FDC.7040708@fedoraproject.org> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:30:09 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 18:18 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> You may need to take of the pink glasses ? :-) > > I *really* hope everyone working on this is using a properly > colour-calibrated display? It looks like some kind of calibration on my other laptop is in order. It is clearly grey on this laptop (not blue either though.) But, I'm not sure how to calibrate it. :( Um, if all my designs are a little too pink in the future, it's not the Hello Kitty thing, really! ~m From awilliam at redhat.com Thu Oct 22 00:25:36 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:25:36 -0700 Subject: Tomorrows polish In-Reply-To: <4ADF9FDC.7040708@fedoraproject.org> References: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> <4ADEBA5A.20705@kanarip.com> <1256123053.1803.98.camel@planemask> <4ADF0BFA.40707@fedoraproject.org> <1256163519.1797.55.camel@planemask> <1256164209.2314.440.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADF9FDC.7040708@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256171136.2314.450.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 19:57 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:30:09 -0700, Adam Williamson > wrote: > > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 18:18 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > >> You may need to take of the pink glasses ? :-) > > > > I *really* hope everyone working on this is using a properly > > colour-calibrated display? > > It looks like some kind of calibration on my other laptop is in order. > It is clearly grey on this laptop (not blue either though.) But, I'm not > sure how to calibrate it. :( > > Um, if all my designs are a little too pink in the future, it's not the > Hello Kitty thing, really! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_color_management looks like a decent reference. Note that doing really reliable calibration requires some hardware. Perhaps getting a single colorimeter to pass around all the people within Fedora who are likely to be messing with colors would not be a bad idea. You can do rough ballpark calibration without hardware, and how to do it is pretty well detailed in this Dan's Data post: http://www.dansdata.com/spyder.htm under the heading 'Alternatives'. Note that this is a case of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do, because my two monitors and laptop are all cheerfully different from each other. But then, I don't do any graphic design =). For those who are working with colors, having a properly-calibrated display is pretty key. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 22 04:10:59 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:40:59 +0530 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF22BC.1080101@linuxgrrl.com> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF1F34.5030503@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF22BC.1080101@linuxgrrl.com> Message-ID: <4ADFDB53.6090902@fedoraproject.org> On 10/21/2009 08:33 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > We could crack open a new wiki page to post our notes here, what do you > think? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design Ok. I will create notes and pass on the link to you. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 22 05:20:15 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:50:15 +0530 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADFDB53.6090902@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF1F34.5030503@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF22BC.1080101@linuxgrrl.com> <4ADFDB53.6090902@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4ADFEB8F.9090101@fedoraproject.org> On 10/22/2009 09:40 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 10/21/2009 08:33 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > >> >> We could crack open a new wiki page to post our notes here, what do you >> think? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design > > Ok. I will create notes and pass on the link to you. I did something for one video at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Installer_Usability_Improvements Let me if this is what you are looking for. Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu Oct 22 07:52:02 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:52:02 +0300 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADF5B27.3040407@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF219D.5070308@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF279F.4000206@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF2BC1.9060001@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF3D72.6060002@fedoraproject.org> <1256148517.2314.404.camel@adam.local.net> <939dd5750910211130w4d996a1bu804c9faf78627496@mail.gmail.com> <1256150244.4242.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4ADF5B27.3040407@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4AE00F22.1020504@nicubunu.ro> On 10/21/2009 10:04 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > So here's a list of installer requirements I've extrapolated from some > of the discussion here and from some past experience I've had with the > installer: Wow! you listed so many cases, leaving the reader to wonder what are the use cases for the *other* type of install... -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu Oct 22 07:58:30 2009 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:58:30 +0300 Subject: desktop spin page content? In-Reply-To: <4ADF6E97.5090801@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF6E97.5090801@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4AE010A6.60801@nicubunu.ro> On 10/21/2009 11:27 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > So as part of the ongoing Fedora web redesign, we made a design for a > full revamp of spins.fedoraproject.org to have a spins directory with > details pages for each spin. > > Here's the mockups for that site: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009/Mockups/Spins.fpo > > I was wondering if the desktop spin should get a page on there as well? > I put it in the directory mockups. But it is the default spin, so maybe > it doesn't need a spins page? I'm not really sure what's the right call. > What do you think? The timeline on this is really tight (sorry for that) > so I was hoping to get an idea of what to do by next Monday if at all > possible. I think it wise to have a dedicated spin page for Desktop, it is the default download now, but this may change at some point. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ From duffy at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 22 19:33:16 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:33:16 -0400 Subject: Interested in helping improve the Fedora desktop experience? In-Reply-To: <4ADFEB8F.9090101@fedoraproject.org> References: <4ADF1C9D.2000504@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF1F34.5030503@fedoraproject.org> <4ADF22BC.1080101@linuxgrrl.com> <4ADFDB53.6090902@fedoraproject.org> <4ADFEB8F.9090101@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4AE0B37C.6080401@fedoraproject.org> On 10/22/2009 01:20 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 10/22/2009 09:40 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> On 10/21/2009 08:33 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: >> >>> >>> We could crack open a new wiki page to post our notes here, what do you >>> think? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design >> >> Ok. I will create notes and pass on the link to you. > > I did something for one video at > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Installer_Usability_Improvements > > Let me if this is what you are looking for. Here's some of the pointers I gave in IRC today: mizmo, not sure you got my mail. I did https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Installer_Usability_Improvements mether: thanks i did! mether: ive beena bit overloaded today, you work too fast lol is that the kind of notes you wanted I wasnt quite sure mether: k mether: some things i'd like to see - mether: per-screen, how many seconds did he spend mether: per screen, what info did he enter mether: this is on the right track though! ~m From poelstra at redhat.com Thu Oct 22 19:30:17 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:30:17 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4AE0B2C9.8000000@redhat.com> Jesse Keating said the following on 10/20/2009 10:19 AM Pacific Time: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 12:13 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> Last minute is hardly accurate when we still have 4 weeks to go to the >> actual release. Thats 1/6 of the entire devel cycle. > > Small point of fact. It's 4 weeks until the release date. We have to > have things composed and staged to mirrors nearly a week prior to that, > and thus in RC stage a few days before that. You most certainly do not > have 4 weeks of bugfixing left. I'd prefer all changes are done by Nov > 10th so that we can enter the RC stage and only pick up changes that > would prevent the release of Fedora 12. Saying November 10 is okay doesn't make any sense if we are are scheduled to compose the RC on 2009-11-04. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/12/Schedule John From poelstra at redhat.com Thu Oct 22 22:31:08 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 18:31:08 -0400 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <1256057898.1803.50.camel@planemask> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <20091020152239.GB32365@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256054044.2314.247.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADDE98D.6090705@fedoraproject.org> <1256057898.1803.50.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <4AE0DD2C.6010407@redhat.com> Matthias Clasen said the following on 10/20/2009 09:58 AM Pacific Time: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 22:17 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Making such changes in the end of the release means that we will have to >> rush to document them in the release notes which are already frozen for >> translations just as a single example of the problem of doing things now >> instead of earlier in the release cycle. Even minor tweaks tend to have >> a big impact. > > Then we need a longer release cycle. After feature freeze, add a polish > period, followed by a string and documentation freeze. Seriously, do you > think we have been doing nothing all summer only to sneak this stuff in > late behind your back ?! > > I have added a section outlining these changes to the desktop beat for > the release notes. > Part of the problem on this thread is that everyone has different interpretations of what our schedule milestones mean... including "final freeze" or "beta freeze" and they aren't well documented on the wiki. I'm hoping to work on this. Another problem is that some people were "surprised" by the change. So as not to surprise people in the future it would be excellent to outline in advance when the desktop team plans to have certain things done by. Then people will know that things could change up until that date. I'm not advocating something super detailed.... probably 5 or 6 different milestones would be sufficient? Or if you wish we could go the route of a detailed team schedule like: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-design-tasks.html Here is a first draft of the Fedora 13 Schedule: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule It would be great get your feedback now on how to make the Fedora 13 better by including a mock up with dates and names of the phases you are suggesting. I can build these things into the detailed development schedule so that people have a better idea what to expect. And if you really believe a longer schedule would help, suggested dates for that would be helpful as well. I can't promise the schedule will be longer, but at least it can be part of the overall discussion. Bottom line I'd like to help make this better if I can and do that by adding a few milestones to our schedule. Thanks, John From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Oct 22 22:34:16 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:34:16 -0700 Subject: Some recent changes In-Reply-To: <4AE0B2C9.8000000@redhat.com> References: <1256043278.1803.3.camel@planemask> <4ADDB737.30200@fedoraproject.org> <1256046086.1803.16.camel@planemask> <4ADDBF27.2070300@fedoraproject.org> <4ADDD1E8.3000504@redhat.com> <1256052786.1803.32.camel@planemask> <4ADDDAF5.4080302@fedoraproject.org> <1256055200.1803.45.camel@planemask> <1256059165.4242.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4AE0B2C9.8000000@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256250856.9182.88.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-10-22 at 12:30 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Saying November 10 is okay doesn't make any sense if we are are > scheduled to compose the RC on 2009-11-04. > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/12/Schedule That's why I replied again later correcting this date (: -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Oct 23 10:07:09 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:37:09 +0530 Subject: Alacarte is not installed by default Message-ID: <4AE1804D.9040401@fedoraproject.org> Hi, http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/comps/comps-f12.xml.in?view=markup It's listed as a optional package in comps. Shouldn't it be default? Rahul From martin.sourada at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 10:37:10 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:37:10 +0200 Subject: tooltip changes In-Reply-To: <1256064614.1803.81.camel@planemask> References: <1256064614.1803.81.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256294231.1916.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 14:50 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Just so nobody can say they have been surprised: > > I am working on a refresh of the tooltips in our default theme. > > Among the things that I am trying out are rounded corners and different > color than the old-school yellow that we've been using ever since. The > leading candidates for a replacement are a light gray or a light blue. > > I hope to have packages for this by tomorrow. > I've just received the updated packages and am only wondering -- where the heck did you change the tooltip appearance? You seem to have totally ignored that there are other engines/themes than clearlooks. I don't want to have these tooltips for nodoka as they do not fit the style and have blurry borders. How can I override them from engine when you apparently changed them in gtk itself?? Plus, when composited the tooltip text clashes with background if there is any text bellow. Thanks, Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Oct 23 13:06:07 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:06:07 -0400 Subject: tooltip changes In-Reply-To: <1256294231.1916.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256064614.1803.81.camel@planemask> <1256294231.1916.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256303167.1860.5.camel@planemask> On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 12:37 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote: > I've just received the updated packages and am only wondering -- where > the heck did you change the tooltip appearance? You seem to have totally > ignored that there are other engines/themes than clearlooks. I don't > want to have these tooltips for nodoka as they do not fit the style and > have blurry borders. How can I override them from engine when you > apparently changed them in gtk itself?? Plus, when composited the > tooltip text clashes with background if there is any text bellow. Themes still have approximately the same amount of influence on tooltip rendering than before; they can control the color and the padding. Doing the shape and translucency in the theme engine is not really practical. I have considered adding a style property to turn it off. Maybe I should do that. From notting at redhat.com Fri Oct 23 15:40:23 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:40:23 -0400 Subject: Alacarte is not installed by default In-Reply-To: <4AE1804D.9040401@fedoraproject.org> References: <4AE1804D.9040401@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20091023154022.GH12466@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/comps/comps-f12.xml.in?view=markup > > It's listed as a optional package in comps. Shouldn't it be default? This was changed at feature freeze, before the alpha, looks to be part of a few general desktop package set tweaks. Bill From awilliam at redhat.com Fri Oct 23 16:14:47 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:14:47 -0700 Subject: Alacarte is not installed by default In-Reply-To: <20091023154022.GH12466@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4AE1804D.9040401@fedoraproject.org> <20091023154022.GH12466@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1256314487.2314.510.camel@adam.local.net> On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 11:40 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/comps/comps-f12.xml.in?view=markup > > > > It's listed as a optional package in comps. Shouldn't it be default? > > This was changed at feature freeze, before the alpha, looks to be > part of a few general desktop package set tweaks. Rahul probably saw the same forum post I did, from a guy who was a bit confused that it was 'missing'. That was the only post I saw, though, so it's hard to say how many people will be in the same position. (worth noting that if you just run PackageKit and search for 'menu' it doesn't show up, you have to use the not-terribly-discoverable UI for switching to 'search by description' before it'll show up in a search). -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From martin.sourada at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 16:46:13 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:46:13 +0200 Subject: tooltip changes In-Reply-To: <1256303167.1860.5.camel@planemask> References: <1256064614.1803.81.camel@planemask> <1256294231.1916.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256303167.1860.5.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256316373.1916.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 09:06 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Themes still have approximately the same amount of influence on tooltip > rendering than before; they can control the color and the padding. Nope, they do not. We could have drawn it ourselves completely -- i.e. with gradients, different kinds of borders, ... Control over color and padding just isn't enough. > Doing the shape and translucency in the theme engine is not really > practical. I have considered adding a style property to turn it off. Yeah, that's true but that's because the design is broken, that's why we have hacks in themes to support wider range of rounded corners for entries and for progress bars (and have no rounded corners for tooltips). Really, I'd be much more happy if you (speaking in general second person) would work on fixing the design for gtk3 (so that we could actually have the engines/themes draw on *transparent* canvas) than working on e.g. gnome-shell... I don't think that rounded corners for tooltips are that much needed to disallow engines drawing the tooltips themselves. Er... sorry for the slight off-topic, I just couldn't help it :( > Maybe I should do that. That would be nice :-) Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Fri Oct 23 17:55:38 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:55:38 +0100 Subject: tooltip changes In-Reply-To: <1256294231.1916.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256064614.1803.81.camel@planemask> <1256294231.1916.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256320538.3198.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 12:37 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 14:50 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Just so nobody can say they have been surprised: > > > > I am working on a refresh of the tooltips in our default theme. > > > > Among the things that I am trying out are rounded corners and different > > color than the old-school yellow that we've been using ever since. The > > leading candidates for a replacement are a light gray or a light blue. > > > > I hope to have packages for this by tomorrow. > > > I've just received the updated packages and am only wondering -- where > the heck did you change the tooltip appearance? You seem to have totally > ignored that there are other engines/themes than clearlooks. I don't > want to have these tooltips for nodoka as they do not fit the style and > have blurry borders. How can I override them from engine when you > apparently changed them in gtk itself?? Plus, when composited the > tooltip text clashes with background if there is any text bellow. If you want to spend a bit of time writing new theme bits, I'd advise you to check the new GtkSpinner widget in gtk+ master which probably needs a bit of upstream love and tweaking, and certainly some implementation in other themes if they don't like the original design. From notting at redhat.com Fri Oct 23 18:05:02 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:05:02 -0400 Subject: Polish for F-12 - we have a hard stop date Message-ID: <20091023180501.GD14990@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> We have, on the current schedule: 32. Update and freeze the screenshots page Wed 2009-10-28 Wed 2009-11-04 7 33. Update Fedora tour page Wed 2009-10-28 Wed 2009-11-04 7 Ergo, can we make sure any and all polishing that might affect the screenshots be finished, packaged, and set up with tag requests on next Tuesday? That way the marketing team will be able to start their work on time on Wednesday from rawhide. Thanks, Bill From martin.sourada at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 21:35:41 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:35:41 +0200 Subject: tooltip changes In-Reply-To: <1256316373.1916.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256064614.1803.81.camel@planemask> <1256294231.1916.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256303167.1860.5.camel@planemask> <1256316373.1916.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256333741.1916.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 18:46 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 09:06 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > practical. I have considered adding a style property to turn it off. > > Maybe I should do that. > That would be nice :-) > I noticed you've committed a change that does that. Thanks :) On a side note, what's the upstream position on this, if any? Especially the gtk devs (the whole patch seems a bit hackish/non-systematic) and gnome-art people (who should be doing/overlooking the design). Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Oct 24 06:46:26 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 12:16:26 +0530 Subject: Alacarte is not installed by default In-Reply-To: <1256314487.2314.510.camel@adam.local.net> References: <4AE1804D.9040401@fedoraproject.org> <20091023154022.GH12466@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256314487.2314.510.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <4AE2A2C2.6070603@fedoraproject.org> On 10/23/2009 09:44 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 11:40 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: >> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: >>> http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/comps/comps-f12.xml.in?view=markup >>> >>> It's listed as a optional package in comps. Shouldn't it be default? >> >> This was changed at feature freeze, before the alpha, looks to be >> part of a few general desktop package set tweaks. > > Rahul probably saw the same forum post I did, from a guy who was a bit > confused that it was 'missing'. That was the only post I saw, though, so > it's hard to say how many people will be in the same position I saw it a couple of other places. Matthias Clasen has edited the desktop beat to add a note on this after the current discussion so I have to assume that it was not dropped accidentally. Many of the packages we are dropping out of the Live CD or the default set in comps are being used often by end users still and it is not easy to find and install them. Try search for "office" or "openoffice" in gpk-application. Not a nice user experience. Rahul From mclasen at redhat.com Sat Oct 24 14:25:40 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 10:25:40 -0400 Subject: Alacarte is not installed by default In-Reply-To: <1256314487.2314.510.camel@adam.local.net> References: <4AE1804D.9040401@fedoraproject.org> <20091023154022.GH12466@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256314487.2314.510.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1256394340.1758.14.camel@planemask> On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 09:14 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > (worth noting that if you just run PackageKit and search for 'menu' it > doesn't show up, you have to use the not-terribly-discoverable UI for > switching to 'search by description' before it'll show up in a search). > We don't have any illusions that the current gpk-application is a good solution for application search and installation. That is going to be a focus for improvement in F13, I think. But is 'search by description' not the default ? I thought it was, and if it isn't, we should make it so. I'll talk to Richard about that. Matthias From awilliam at redhat.com Sat Oct 24 15:47:08 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 08:47:08 -0700 Subject: Alacarte is not installed by default In-Reply-To: <1256394340.1758.14.camel@planemask> References: <4AE1804D.9040401@fedoraproject.org> <20091023154022.GH12466@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256314487.2314.510.camel@adam.local.net> <1256394340.1758.14.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256399228.2314.524.camel@adam.local.net> On Sat, 2009-10-24 at 10:25 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 09:14 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > (worth noting that if you just run PackageKit and search for 'menu' it > > doesn't show up, you have to use the not-terribly-discoverable UI for > > switching to 'search by description' before it'll show up in a search). > > > > We don't have any illusions that the current gpk-application is a good > solution for application search and installation. That is going to be a > focus for improvement in F13, I think. > > But is 'search by description' not the default ? I thought it was, and > if it isn't, we should make it so. I'll talk to Richard about that. Not on either of my systems. I'm pretty sure I didn't switch it to 'search by name' manually. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From awilliam at redhat.com Sat Oct 24 16:37:47 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 09:37:47 -0700 Subject: Alacarte is not installed by default In-Reply-To: <4AE2A2C2.6070603@fedoraproject.org> References: <4AE1804D.9040401@fedoraproject.org> <20091023154022.GH12466@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256314487.2314.510.camel@adam.local.net> <4AE2A2C2.6070603@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1256402267.2314.529.camel@adam.local.net> On Sat, 2009-10-24 at 12:16 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 10/23/2009 09:44 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 11:40 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > >> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > >>> http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/comps/comps-f12.xml.in?view=markup > >>> > >>> It's listed as a optional package in comps. Shouldn't it be default? > >> > >> This was changed at feature freeze, before the alpha, looks to be > >> part of a few general desktop package set tweaks. > > > > Rahul probably saw the same forum post I did, from a guy who was a bit > > confused that it was 'missing'. That was the only post I saw, though, so > > it's hard to say how many people will be in the same position > > I saw it a couple of other places. Matthias Clasen has edited the Here's another recent one: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=232502 -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From debarshi.ray at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 09:37:02 2009 From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 11:37:02 +0200 Subject: nautilus-python is broken? Message-ID: <3170f42f0910250237k3bbe8024i73200dd8bfac6de9@mail.gmail.com> PackageDB shows nautilus-python as orphaned and I found that some of the packages with extensions written in Python (eg., Postr) are not having their UIs displayed in Nautilus. So are these bindings obsoleted or broken? Cheers, Debarshi -- One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an imaginary part. -- Andrew Koenig From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 12:47:19 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:47:19 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop Message-ID: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi all, I've been pondering this for a while, but there has been an increasing amount of blurriness in desktop UI elements that haven't been (most likely) designed by or even consulted with the gnome-art team (or fedora design team). Some examples include (the top part of each picture is screenshot, the bottom part is analogue done in inkscape to look crisp; ignore the coloring, it's not important in these images): * sound preferences [1] * volume control with compositing [2] * new tooltips [3] It does not seem that the blurriness is intentional, so I though I'd point it out. The problem is that if you're drawing fills you need to start at integer x,y values for position; when drawing borders, they need to be shifted by exactly half of their width (i.e. 0.5 px for 1px wide borders) to look crisp. We are not working with very high DPI display devices so this is important. I think fixing these would nicely fit with your "polishes for F12" project. Martin References: [1] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/gnome-blurry/sound-preferences.png [2] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/gnome-blurry/sound-volume.png [3] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/gnome-blurry/tooltips.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Mon Oct 26 13:34:37 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:34:37 +0000 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:47 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been pondering this for a while, but there has been an increasing > amount of blurriness in desktop UI elements that haven't been (most > likely) designed by or even consulted with the gnome-art team (or fedora > design team). Some examples include (the top part of each picture is > screenshot, the bottom part is analogue done in inkscape to look crisp; > ignore the coloring, it's not important in these images): > * sound preferences [1] > * volume control with compositing [2] > * new tooltips [3] > > It does not seem that the blurriness is intentional, so I though I'd > point it out. The problem is that if you're drawing fills you need to > start at integer x,y values for position; when drawing borders, they > need to be shifted by exactly half of their width (i.e. 0.5 px for 1px > wide borders) to look crisp. We are not working with very high DPI > display devices so this is important. > > I think fixing these would nicely fit with your "polishes for F12" > project. The sound volume one has an upstream bug: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=567249 Patch would be most welcome Cheers > References: > [1] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/gnome-blurry/sound-preferences.png > [2] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/gnome-blurry/sound-volume.png > [3] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/gnome-blurry/tooltips.png > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From mclasen at redhat.com Mon Oct 26 13:48:18 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:48:18 -0400 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:47 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > I think fixing these would nicely fit with your "polishes for F12" > project. > Yes, thanks for pointing these out. Please send us your patches - or is that not what you meant with 'consulting' ? From bnocera at redhat.com Mon Oct 26 13:50:22 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:50:22 +0000 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256565022.2367.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:47 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been pondering this for a while, but there has been an increasing > amount of blurriness in desktop UI elements that haven't been (most > likely) designed by or even consulted with the gnome-art team (or fedora > design team). Some examples include (the top part of each picture is > screenshot, the bottom part is analogue done in inkscape to look crisp; > ignore the coloring, it's not important in these images): > * sound preferences [1] Does the attached patch work for you for gnome-media? > * volume control with compositing [2] > * new tooltips [3] > > It does not seem that the blurriness is intentional, so I though I'd > point it out. The problem is that if you're drawing fills you need to > start at integer x,y values for position; when drawing borders, they > need to be shifted by exactly half of their width (i.e. 0.5 px for 1px > wide borders) to look crisp. We are not working with very high DPI > display devices so this is important. > > I think fixing these would nicely fit with your "polishes for F12" > project. > > Martin > > References: > [1] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/gnome-blurry/sound-preferences.png > [2] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/gnome-blurry/sound-volume.png > [3] http://mso.fedorapeople.org/gnome-blurry/tooltips.png > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 0001-Fix-bluriness-in-level-bar.patch Type: text/x-patch Size: 1085 bytes Desc: not available URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 13:50:07 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:50:07 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:34 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > The sound volume one has an upstream bug: > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=567249 > Nice to see people from gnome-art team noticed it as well. > Patch would be most welcome If I find the code that's responsible for this, I'll look into how to patch it. But no promises. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 14:02:16 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:02:16 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256565022.2367.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565022.2367.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256565737.9318.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:50 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:47 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I've been pondering this for a while, but there has been an increasing > > amount of blurriness in desktop UI elements that haven't been (most > > likely) designed by or even consulted with the gnome-art team (or fedora > > design team). Some examples include (the top part of each picture is > > screenshot, the bottom part is analogue done in inkscape to look crisp; > > ignore the coloring, it's not important in these images): > > * sound preferences [1] > > Does the attached patch work for you for gnome-media? If x0, y0, width and height are integer values (although they're passed as doubles I doubt they are actually non-integers), it should, I'm going to try build and test it. You would probably also want to use (but that depends on what you'd what the width/height values to represent). x1 = x0 + width - 1; and similar for y1. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 14:05:55 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:05:55 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256565955.9318.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 09:48 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:47 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > > > > I think fixing these would nicely fit with your "polishes for F12" > > project. > > > > Yes, thanks for pointing these out. > > Please send us your patches - or is that not what you meant with > 'consulting' ? > By consulting I meant, when you are coding graphical UI elements, it would be nice if you had someone from gnome-art or fedora-design review it visually. But yes, if I'll have enough free time and energy to create the patches before anyone else does, I'll look into it. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 14:20:29 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:20:29 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256565737.9318.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565022.2367.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565737.9318.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256566830.9318.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 15:02 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:50 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > Does the attached patch work for you for gnome-media? > > If x0, y0, width and height are integer values (although they're passed > as doubles I doubt they are actually non-integers), it should, I'm going > to try build and test it. You would probably also want to use (but that > depends on what you'd what the width/height values to represent). > > x1 = x0 + width - 1; > > and similar for y1. Actually, looking at in in the perspective of the whole code, this is IMHO not the correct place to fix it as curved_rectangle() can be used both for fills and for borders (even though in the file you use it only in a way that fixing this in curved_rectangle() works too). Attaching my version of the patch (verified that it works for me as intended). Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gnome-media-2.28.1-fix-blurriness-in-level.patch Type: text/x-patch Size: 2292 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 15:00:35 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:00:35 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 14:50 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:34 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > The sound volume one has an upstream bug: > > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=567249 > > > Nice to see people from gnome-art team noticed it as well. > > > Patch would be most welcome > If I find the code that's responsible for this, I'll look into how to > patch it. But no promises. > > Martin Hrm, this one was a little bit harder to find where the problem is... You are actually trying to draw it on non-integer position, which of course results in blurry volume bar in most cases. I've workarounded that by hard retyping the values to (int), but use whatever you prefer in your code to get the integer values out of the double ones. Quickly tested patch attached. I don't have more time to look at the tooltips ATM, maybe when I return. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gnome-settings-daemon-2.28.1-fix-blurriness-in-composited-volume-bar.patch Type: text/x-patch Size: 1496 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Mon Oct 26 15:12:36 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:12:36 +0000 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256566830.9318.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565022.2367.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565737.9318.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256566830.9318.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256569956.2367.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 15:20 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 15:02 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:50 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > Does the attached patch work for you for gnome-media? > > > > If x0, y0, width and height are integer values (although they're passed > > as doubles I doubt they are actually non-integers), it should, I'm going > > to try build and test it. You would probably also want to use (but that > > depends on what you'd what the width/height values to represent). > > > > x1 = x0 + width - 1; > > > > and similar for y1. > Actually, looking at in in the perspective of the whole code, this is > IMHO not the correct place to fix it as curved_rectangle() can be used > both for fills and for borders (even though in the file you use it only > in a way that fixing this in curved_rectangle() works too). > > Attaching my version of the patch (verified that it works for me as > intended). Committed to master, will be in the next stable release of gnome-media. Cheers From bnocera at redhat.com Mon Oct 26 15:23:09 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:23:09 +0000 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256570589.2367.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 16:00 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 14:50 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:34 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > The sound volume one has an upstream bug: > > > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=567249 > > > > > Nice to see people from gnome-art team noticed it as well. > > > > > Patch would be most welcome > > If I find the code that's responsible for this, I'll look into how to > > patch it. But no promises. > > > > Martin > Hrm, this one was a little bit harder to find where the problem is... > You are actually trying to draw it on non-integer position, which of > course results in blurry volume bar in most cases. I've workarounded > that by hard retyping the values to (int), but use whatever you prefer > in your code to get the integer values out of the double ones. Quickly > tested patch attached. I've attached a patch (and then an updated patch) to the upstream bug. Mind testing it? Seems to look as expected for me. Cheers > I don't have more time to look at the tooltips ATM, maybe when I return. > > Martin > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From hughsient at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 09:39:51 2009 From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:39:51 +0000 Subject: Alacarte is not installed by default In-Reply-To: <1256394340.1758.14.camel@planemask> References: <4AE1804D.9040401@fedoraproject.org> <20091023154022.GH12466@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1256314487.2314.510.camel@adam.local.net> <1256394340.1758.14.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <15e53e180910270239n653120bfo2b5868a876dbcaf1@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/24 Matthias Clasen : > But is 'search by description' not the default ? I thought it was, and > if it isn't, we should make it so. I'll talk to Richard about that. It should be set to search by description by default, unless you've got GConf settings imported from F10 era. If you "unset" /apps/gnome-packagekit/application/search_mode in gconf-editor then it should return to details. Richard. From bnocera at redhat.com Tue Oct 27 22:42:26 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:42:26 +0000 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256570589.2367.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256570589.2367.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256683346.2367.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 15:23 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 16:00 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 14:50 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:34 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > The sound volume one has an upstream bug: > > > > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=567249 > > > > > > > Nice to see people from gnome-art team noticed it as well. > > > > > > > Patch would be most welcome > > > If I find the code that's responsible for this, I'll look into how to > > > patch it. But no promises. > > > > > > Martin > > Hrm, this one was a little bit harder to find where the problem is... > > You are actually trying to draw it on non-integer position, which of > > course results in blurry volume bar in most cases. I've workarounded > > that by hard retyping the values to (int), but use whatever you prefer > > in your code to get the integer values out of the double ones. Quickly > > tested patch attached. > > I've attached a patch (and then an updated patch) to the upstream bug. > > Mind testing it? Seems to look as expected for me. When trying to build the fix into F12, I noticed we have a few of our own changes. Could you please make sure that: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=138682 also looks as expected for you? Cheers From martin.sourada at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 23:19:26 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:19:26 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256683346.2367.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256570589.2367.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256683346.2367.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256685566.2780.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 22:42 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > When trying to build the fix into F12, I noticed we have a few of our > own changes. > > Could you please make sure that: > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=138682 > also looks as expected for you? > It looks crisp, but the fill is one pixel smaller then it should be (see the attachment). Looks like this shouldn't be there: - x1 = round ((width - 1) * percentage); + x1 = round ((width - 2) * percentage); and this: - cairo_rectangle (cr, x0 + 0.5, y0 + 0.5, x1, height - 1); + rounded_rectangle (cr, 1.0, x0 + 0.5, y0 + 0.5, height / 8, x1, height - 2); should look like - cairo_rectangle (cr, x0 + 0.5, y0 + 0.5, x1, height - 1); + rounded_rectangle (cr, 1.0, x0 + 0.5, y0 + 0.5, height / 6 - 0.5, x1, height - 1); in "0003-Improve-the-media-keys-overlay-design.patch". The "height / 6 - 0.5" gives better correlation with the through rectangle's radius than "height / 8" (but isn't a big deal) and the substitutions of 2's instead of 1's with the change from cairo_rectangle to rounded_rectangle and in the x1 setting are obviously incorrect. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: volume-fill.png Type: image/png Size: 931 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Oct 28 00:55:19 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:55:19 +0000 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256685566.2780.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256570589.2367.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256683346.2367.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256685566.2780.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256691319.2367.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 00:19 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 22:42 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > When trying to build the fix into F12, I noticed we have a few of our > > own changes. > > > > Could you please make sure that: > > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=138682 > > also looks as expected for you? > > > It looks crisp, but the fill is one pixel smaller then it should be (see > the attachment). This should be all fixed in: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=138704 Let me know and I'll get it tagged for F12, and update gnome-power-manager as well. Cheers From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 09:05:43 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:05:43 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256691319.2367.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256570589.2367.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256683346.2367.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256685566.2780.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256691319.2367.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256720743.1986.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 00:55 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > This should be all fixed in: > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=138704 > This one works as expected :) > Let me know and I'll get it tagged for F12, and update > gnome-power-manager as well. > > Cheers Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Oct 28 11:04:31 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:04:31 +0000 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256720743.1986.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256570589.2367.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256683346.2367.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256685566.2780.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256691319.2367.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256720743.1986.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256727871.2367.121.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 10:05 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 00:55 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > This should be all fixed in: > > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=138704 > > > This one works as expected :) Finally, I also updated gnome-power-manager: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1774321 Would appreciate if people could test as well before tagging. Cheers From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 11:15:23 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:15:23 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256727871.2367.121.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256570589.2367.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256683346.2367.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256685566.2780.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256691319.2367.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256720743.1986.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256727871.2367.121.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256728524.4791.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 11:04 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 10:05 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 00:55 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > This should be all fixed in: > > > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=138704 > > > > > This one works as expected :) > > Finally, I also updated gnome-power-manager: > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1774321 > hrm, that one has now wrong positioning (at the top-left corner of the screen; testing brightness) and the progress bar is blurry. However, looking at the code, I fail to see, why :( Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 11:23:35 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:23:35 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256728524.4791.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256570589.2367.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256683346.2367.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256685566.2780.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256691319.2367.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256720743.1986.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256727871.2367.121.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256728524.4791.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256729015.4791.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:15 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 11:04 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 10:05 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 00:55 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > This should be all fixed in: > > > > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=138704 > > > > > > > This one works as expected :) > > > > Finally, I also updated gnome-power-manager: > > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1774321 > > > hrm, that one has now wrong positioning (at the top-left corner of the > screen; testing brightness) and the progress bar is blurry. However, > looking at the code, I fail to see, why :( > Actually, I've just found the source of blurriness: in draw_action_brightness(): + /* draw volume meter */ + draw_volume_boxes (window, + cr, + (double)window->priv->volume_level / 100.0, + bright_box_x0 + 0.5, + bright_box_y0 + 0.5, + bright_box_width, + bright_box_height); should be + /* draw volume meter */ + draw_volume_boxes (window, + cr, + (double)window->priv->volume_level / 100.0, + bright_box_x0, + bright_box_y0, + bright_box_width, + bright_box_height); as you are adding the 0.5 inside the draw_volume_boxes() already. Not sure about the positioning issue though. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 11:35:07 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:35:07 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256729707.4791.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 09:48 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:47 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > > > > I think fixing these would nicely fit with your "polishes for F12" > > project. > > > > Yes, thanks for pointing these out. Matthias, going through the tooltips patch, I found these problems: in fill_background(): + draw_round_rect (cr, + 1.0, 1, 1, radius, + widget->allocation.width - 2, + widget->allocation.height - 2); should be + draw_round_rect (cr, + 1.0, 0.5, 0.5, radius, + widget->allocation.width - 1, + widget->allocation.height - 1); and in update_shape() + draw_round_rect (cr, 1.0, 0, 0, 4, width, height); you are ignoring radius setting. I'm going to try build and test these fixes (if I find enough HDD space for the gtk2 build) to see if it's enough. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 11:54:35 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:54:35 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256729707.4791.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> <1256729707.4791.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256730875.4791.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:35 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > and in update_shape() > + draw_round_rect (cr, 1.0, 0, 0, 4, width, height); > you are ignoring radius setting. > I forgot to mention, that you should use radius + 0.5 to get the shape correctly. I just thought about the actual implementation, and as an engine developer, long-term I'd prefer more systematical change. I.e. let an engine handle the drawing and ask the engine for the desired tooltip shape as well (if not composited). That way we could implement it in a clean way in engines, with radius as set in engine options (as opposed to counting the radius from x/ythickness) and with our custom styling. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 12:45:53 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:45:53 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256729707.4791.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> <1256729707.4791.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256733953.4791.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:35 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 09:48 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:47 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > > > > > > > I think fixing these would nicely fit with your "polishes for F12" > > > project. > > > > > > > Yes, thanks for pointing these out. > Matthias, > > going through the tooltips patch, I found these problems: > in fill_background(): > + draw_round_rect (cr, > + 1.0, 1, 1, radius, > + widget->allocation.width - 2, > + widget->allocation.height - 2); > should be > + draw_round_rect (cr, > + 1.0, 0.5, 0.5, radius, > + widget->allocation.width - 1, > + widget->allocation.height - 1); So, just built and tested -> this is enough to make it look crisp. > and in update_shape() > + draw_round_rect (cr, 1.0, 0, 0, 4, width, height); > you are ignoring radius setting. Hrm, this one is hard to get looking good... The best setting I've came up with is radius + 1 instead of 4. Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Wed Oct 28 14:16:28 2009 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:16:28 +0000 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256729015.4791.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256570589.2367.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256683346.2367.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256685566.2780.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256691319.2367.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256720743.1986.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256727871.2367.121.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256728524.4791.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256729015.4791.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256739388.2495.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:23 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:15 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 11:04 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 10:05 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > > > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 00:55 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > > This should be all fixed in: > > > > > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=138704 > > > > > > > > > This one works as expected :) > > > > > > Finally, I also updated gnome-power-manager: > > > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1774321 > > > > > hrm, that one has now wrong positioning (at the top-left corner of the > > screen; testing brightness) and the progress bar is blurry. However, > > looking at the code, I fail to see, why :( > > > Actually, I've just found the source of blurriness: > in draw_action_brightness(): > + /* draw volume meter */ > + draw_volume_boxes (window, > + cr, > + (double)window->priv->volume_level / 100.0, > + bright_box_x0 + 0.5, > + bright_box_y0 + 0.5, > + bright_box_width, > + bright_box_height); > should be > + /* draw volume meter */ > + draw_volume_boxes (window, > + cr, > + (double)window->priv->volume_level / 100.0, > + bright_box_x0, > + bright_box_y0, > + bright_box_width, > + bright_box_height); > as you are adding the 0.5 inside the draw_volume_boxes() already. Good catch. That was some left-over from previous patches. > Not sure about the positioning issue though. Should be fixed in: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=138737 From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 15:07:33 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:07:33 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256739388.2495.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564077.2367.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256565007.9318.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256569235.13144.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256570589.2367.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256683346.2367.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256685566.2780.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256691319.2367.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256720743.1986.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256727871.2367.121.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256728524.4791.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256729015.4791.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256739388.2495.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256742453.10867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 14:16 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:23 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > Actually, I've just found the source of blurriness: > > in draw_action_brightness(): > > + /* draw volume meter */ > > + draw_volume_boxes (window, > > + cr, > > + (double)window->priv->volume_level / 100.0, > > + bright_box_x0 + 0.5, > > + bright_box_y0 + 0.5, > > + bright_box_width, > > + bright_box_height); > > should be > > + /* draw volume meter */ > > + draw_volume_boxes (window, > > + cr, > > + (double)window->priv->volume_level / 100.0, > > + bright_box_x0, > > + bright_box_y0, > > + bright_box_width, > > + bright_box_height); > > as you are adding the 0.5 inside the draw_volume_boxes() already. > > Good catch. That was some left-over from previous patches. > > > Not sure about the positioning issue though. > > Should be fixed in: > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=138737 > Thanks, it's now crisp and positioned correctly :) Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 28 16:42:09 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:42:09 -0400 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256733953.4791.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> <1256729707.4791.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256733953.4791.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256748129.2838.14.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 13:45 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:35 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 09:48 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 13:47 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I think fixing these would nicely fit with your "polishes for F12" > > > > project. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, thanks for pointing these out. > > Matthias, > > > > going through the tooltips patch, I found these problems: > > in fill_background(): > > + draw_round_rect (cr, > > + 1.0, 1, 1, radius, > > + widget->allocation.width - 2, > > + widget->allocation.height - 2); > > should be > > + draw_round_rect (cr, > > + 1.0, 0.5, 0.5, radius, > > + widget->allocation.width - 1, > > + widget->allocation.height - 1); > So, just built and tested -> this is enough to make it look crisp. > > > and in update_shape() > > + draw_round_rect (cr, 1.0, 0, 0, 4, width, height); > > you are ignoring radius setting. > Hrm, this one is hard to get looking good... The best setting I've came > up with is radius + 1 instead of 4. > Thanks for looking into this, Martin. I'm just building gtk2 and metacity packages that should fix this. Care to try them out and tell me if they match your quality standards ? gtk2-2.18.3-13.fc12 metacity-2.28.0-5.fc12 Then I'll have them tagged. From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 28 16:43:49 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:43:49 -0400 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256730875.4791.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> <1256729707.4791.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256730875.4791.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256748229.2838.15.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:54 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:35 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > and in update_shape() > > + draw_round_rect (cr, 1.0, 0, 0, 4, width, height); > > you are ignoring radius setting. > > > I forgot to mention, that you should use radius + 0.5 to get the shape > correctly. > > I just thought about the actual implementation, and as an engine > developer, long-term I'd prefer more systematical change. I.e. let an > engine handle the drawing and ask the engine for the desired tooltip > shape as well (if not composited). That way we could implement it in a > clean way in engines, with radius as set in engine options (as opposed > to counting the radius from x/ythickness) and with our custom styling. Can you add those comments in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=599617 That would be great. Thanks, Matthias From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 17:01:38 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:01:38 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256748129.2838.14.camel@planemask> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> <1256729707.4791.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256733953.4791.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256748129.2838.14.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256749298.10867.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:42 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Thanks for looking into this, Martin. > > I'm just building gtk2 and metacity packages that should fix this. Care > to try them out and tell me if they match your quality standards ? > > gtk2-2.18.3-13.fc12 > metacity-2.28.0-5.fc12 > > Then I'll have them tagged. > Well, apart from the fact that you've disabled the opt-in switch for themes again, as long as the crispness of the design is concerned, these are fine with me :-) Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Oct 28 19:52:04 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:52:04 -0700 Subject: Transparency on the new tooltips not working in Firefox? Message-ID: <1256759524.2314.620.camel@adam.local.net> I haven't rebooted yet, but I've noticed the new tooltips are showing up in newly-launched apps for me. Oddly, I can see the transparency in Rhythmbox - I can partially see through the tooltip to rest of the Rhythmbox interface 'below' - but not Firefox. The tooltips in Firefox appear completely opaque. Just thought it was an oddity worth mentioning. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 20:02:34 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:02:34 +0100 Subject: Transparency on the new tooltips not working in Firefox? In-Reply-To: <1256759524.2314.620.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256759524.2314.620.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1256760154.10867.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:52 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > I haven't rebooted yet, but I've noticed the new tooltips are showing up > in newly-launched apps for me. Oddly, I can see the transparency in > Rhythmbox - I can partially see through the tooltip to rest of the > Rhythmbox interface 'below' - but not Firefox. The tooltips in Firefox > appear completely opaque. Just thought it was an oddity worth > mentioning. > Indeed, I can confirm the firefox seem to use engine rendered tooltips. WebKit based browsers (I've tested midori and chromium) use the refreshed ones. Maybe firefox bypases gtk and calls the engine functions itself for tooltips -- after all, it just emulates gtk... Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Oct 28 20:30:03 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:30:03 -0700 Subject: Transparency on the new tooltips not working in Firefox? In-Reply-To: <1256760154.10867.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256759524.2314.620.camel@adam.local.net> <1256760154.10867.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256761803.2314.621.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 21:02 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:52 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > I haven't rebooted yet, but I've noticed the new tooltips are showing up > > in newly-launched apps for me. Oddly, I can see the transparency in > > Rhythmbox - I can partially see through the tooltip to rest of the > > Rhythmbox interface 'below' - but not Firefox. The tooltips in Firefox > > appear completely opaque. Just thought it was an oddity worth > > mentioning. > > > Indeed, I can confirm the firefox seem to use engine rendered tooltips. > WebKit based browsers (I've tested midori and chromium) use the > refreshed ones. > > Maybe firefox bypases gtk and calls the engine functions itself for > tooltips -- after all, it just emulates gtk... Right, I forgot that. Well, if it's all down to Firefox's weirdness I guess there's not much to do about it... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 28 20:37:25 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:37:25 -0400 Subject: Transparency on the new tooltips not working in Firefox? In-Reply-To: <1256760154.10867.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256759524.2314.620.camel@adam.local.net> <1256760154.10867.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256762245.2838.20.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 21:02 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:52 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > I haven't rebooted yet, but I've noticed the new tooltips are showing up > > in newly-launched apps for me. Oddly, I can see the transparency in > > Rhythmbox - I can partially see through the tooltip to rest of the > > Rhythmbox interface 'below' - but not Firefox. The tooltips in Firefox > > appear completely opaque. Just thought it was an oddity worth > > mentioning. > > > Indeed, I can confirm the firefox seem to use engine rendered tooltips. > WebKit based browsers (I've tested midori and chromium) use the > refreshed ones. > > Maybe firefox bypases gtk and calls the engine functions itself for > tooltips -- after all, it just emulates gtk... Both firefox and OpenOffice have their own tooltip implementations and just use GTK+ theme colors. I have hope to get that fixed at least for OpenOffice. Matthias From caolanm at redhat.com Wed Oct 28 20:51:16 2009 From: caolanm at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Caol=E1n?= McNamara) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 20:51:16 +0000 Subject: Transparency on the new tooltips not working in Firefox? In-Reply-To: <1256762245.2838.20.camel@planemask> References: <1256759524.2314.620.camel@adam.local.net> <1256760154.10867.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256762245.2838.20.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256763076.5568.21502.camel@Vain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 16:37 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Both firefox and OpenOffice have their own tooltip implementations and > just use GTK+ theme colors. I have hope to get that fixed at least for > OpenOffice. They both (well I only checked OOo, but FF is pretty much the same thing) basically call... gtk_paint_flat_box( GtkTooltipWidget->style, target_drawable, GTK_STATE_NORMAL, GTK_SHADOW_OUT, &clipRect, GtkTooltipWidget, "tooltip", x, y, w, h ); (see vcl/unx/gtk/gdi/salnativewidgets-gtk.cxx) to ask gtk to render the tooltip widget (as it does for the other widgets), but the new tooltip sniffyness is in gtk's gtk_tooltip_paint_window, a level above the gtk_paint_flat_box so its unavailable to OOo/FF. I don't see a straightforward fix. C. From mclasen at redhat.com Wed Oct 28 22:50:18 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:50:18 -0400 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256749298.10867.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> <1256729707.4791.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256733953.4791.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256748129.2838.14.camel@planemask> <1256749298.10867.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1256770218.2838.22.camel@planemask> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 18:01 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 12:42 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > Thanks for looking into this, Martin. > > > > I'm just building gtk2 and metacity packages that should fix this. Care > > to try them out and tell me if they match your quality standards ? > > > > gtk2-2.18.3-13.fc12 > > metacity-2.28.0-5.fc12 > > > > Then I'll have them tagged. > > > Well, apart from the fact that you've disabled the opt-in switch for > themes again, as long as the crispness of the design is concerned, these > are fine with me :-) Yeah, sorry about that. I've fixed that and a few other issues in another round of builds. From awilliam at redhat.com Wed Oct 28 22:54:29 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:54:29 -0700 Subject: Tomorrows polish In-Reply-To: <1256171136.2314.450.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256081628.1803.95.camel@planemask> <4ADEBA5A.20705@kanarip.com> <1256123053.1803.98.camel@planemask> <4ADF0BFA.40707@fedoraproject.org> <1256163519.1797.55.camel@planemask> <1256164209.2314.440.camel@adam.local.net> <4ADF9FDC.7040708@fedoraproject.org> <1256171136.2314.450.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1256770469.27179.0.camel@adam.local.net> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 17:25 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 19:57 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:30:09 -0700, Adam Williamson > > wrote: > > > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 18:18 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > >> You may need to take of the pink glasses ? :-) > > > > > > I *really* hope everyone working on this is using a properly > > > colour-calibrated display? > > > > It looks like some kind of calibration on my other laptop is in order. > > It is clearly grey on this laptop (not blue either though.) But, I'm not > > sure how to calibrate it. :( > > > > Um, if all my designs are a little too pink in the future, it's not the > > Hello Kitty thing, really! > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_color_management looks like a decent > reference. Note that doing really reliable calibration requires some > hardware. Perhaps getting a single colorimeter to pass around all the > people within Fedora who are likely to be messing with colors would not > be a bad idea. > > You can do rough ballpark calibration without hardware, and how to do it > is pretty well detailed in this Dan's Data post: > > http://www.dansdata.com/spyder.htm > > under the heading 'Alternatives'. > > Note that this is a case of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do, because my two > monitors and laptop are all cheerfully different from each other. But > then, I don't do any graphic design =). For those who are working with > colors, having a properly-calibrated display is pretty key. Just to go back to this, in a moment of serendipity, hughsie happens to be working on exactly this: http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2009/10/28/gnome-color-manager/ -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From martin.sourada at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 23:09:16 2009 From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 00:09:16 +0100 Subject: Some blurriness in gnome desktop In-Reply-To: <1256770218.2838.22.camel@planemask> References: <1256561239.9318.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256564898.1828.2.camel@planemask> <1256729707.4791.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256733953.4791.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256748129.2838.14.camel@planemask> <1256749298.10867.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1256770218.2838.22.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256771357.10867.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 18:50 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 18:01 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > > Well, apart from the fact that you've disabled the opt-in switch for > > themes again, as long as the crispness of the design is concerned, these > > are fine with me :-) > > Yeah, sorry about that. I've fixed that and a few other issues in > another round of builds. > Thanks :) Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From apeter at redhat.com Thu Oct 29 09:26:30 2009 From: apeter at redhat.com (Ani Peter) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:56:30 +0530 Subject: Gedit toolbar in rawhide Message-ID: <4AE95FC6.4090702@redhat.com> Hi, During Fedora QA I came across the latest gedit - gedit-2.28.0-1.fc12.i686. Unlike the earlier version - gedit 2.26.3-1.fc11.i586 in F11, in the latest gedit toolbar, except for "Open", "Save" and "Undo", all other options have only icons and no text. Appreciate if someone could confirm about these changes. I have attached the screenshots for the same: Gedit in English for F11 with toolbar containing all icons and text - [1] Gedit in English for rawhide with toolbar containing icons and text only for "Open", "Save" and "Undo"- [2] Gedit in Malayalam (ml_IN) for rawhide with toolbar containing icons and text only for "Open", "Save" and "Undo" - [3] Please excuse me if the discussion on this topic is done already. Thanking you Best regards Ani Peter [1] http://www.flickr.com/photos/44170901 at N08/4055343234/ [2] http://www.flickr.com/photos/44170901 at N08/4055343170/ [3] http://www.flickr.com/photos/44170901 at N08/4054601915/ From debarshi.ray at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 10:39:57 2009 From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:39:57 +0200 Subject: XCF Pixbuf Loader In-Reply-To: <1255450345.3797.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <3170f42f0908121232m1bffd6f2rf7c266c0f6f5161@mail.gmail.com> <1250116593.2022.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1255450345.3797.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3170f42f0910290339q416a3ff4gca147f9062ab81da@mail.gmail.com> Sorry for such a delayed response. > Did you ever file a review request for this? > > I'd be interested in taking a look at it, and retiring my own xcf > thumbnailer code[1]. > > [1]: http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gnome-xcf-thumbnailer/ No, I did not file one. Good to see that you have already done so. Actually I do not know much about Pixbuf loader internals, so I am not a good person to review this either. Cheers, Debarshi -- One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an imaginary part. -- Andrew Koenig From debarshi.ray at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 10:41:40 2009 From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:41:40 +0200 Subject: nautilus-python is broken? In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0910250237k3bbe8024i73200dd8bfac6de9@mail.gmail.com> References: <3170f42f0910250237k3bbe8024i73200dd8bfac6de9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3170f42f0910290341k26c95cf1vf37ff23cd34025c@mail.gmail.com> > PackageDB shows nautilus-python as orphaned and I found that some of > the packages with extensions written in Python (eg., Postr) are not > having their UIs displayed in Nautilus. So are these bindings > obsoleted or broken? Ping? Cheers, Debarshi -- One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an imaginary part. -- Andrew Koenig From awilliam at redhat.com Thu Oct 29 20:09:14 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:09:14 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] Message-ID: <1256846954.2314.66.camel@adam.local.net> this seems an appropriate topic for desktop-list... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Christopher Beland Subject: F12 icon completeness issues Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:52:47 -0400 Size: 6028 URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Thu Oct 29 20:44:13 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:44:13 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] In-Reply-To: <1256846954.2314.66.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256846954.2314.66.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1256849053.1785.10.camel@planemask> On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 13:09 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > this seems an appropriate topic for desktop-list... I don't think there is much to discuss, though. Yes, the missing abrt icon is a problem. But the fact that not every item in Places and System has an icon was our design decision, and is not a bug in any way. I don't see how those 'missing' icons could even theoretically be considered a release blocker. They don't cause a problem in any way. Matthias From awilliam at redhat.com Thu Oct 29 21:01:30 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:01:30 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] In-Reply-To: <1256849053.1785.10.camel@planemask> References: <1256846954.2314.66.camel@adam.local.net> <1256849053.1785.10.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256850090.2314.75.camel@adam.local.net> On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 16:44 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 13:09 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > this seems an appropriate topic for desktop-list... > > I don't think there is much to discuss, though. > > Yes, the missing abrt icon is a problem. But the fact that not every > item in Places and System has an icon was our design decision, and is > not a bug in any way. > > I don't see how those 'missing' icons could even theoretically be > considered a release blocker. They don't cause a problem in any way. I dunno, I didn't write those criteria. I guess the idea was to have some kind of standard for final desktop polish. I guess my question was more or less what you answered above - whether this list knows why this is in the release criteria, and whether you'd agree with it. Though looking at it again, it's a 'should' not a 'must' issue. Which by my understanding means it's not intended to actually be a blocker (only things on the release criteria page with the keyword 'must' indicate things we'd block for). -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Oct 30 11:37:03 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 07:37:03 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] In-Reply-To: <1256850090.2314.75.camel@adam.local.net> References: <1256846954.2314.66.camel@adam.local.net> <1256849053.1785.10.camel@planemask> <1256850090.2314.75.camel@adam.local.net> Message-ID: <1256902623.1832.5.camel@planemask> On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 14:01 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > I dunno, I didn't write those criteria. I guess the idea was to have > some kind of standard for final desktop polish. I guess my question was > more or less what you answered above - whether this list knows why this > is in the release criteria, and whether you'd agree with it. I was not involved in the creation of these criteria. It is obviously a bit unfortunate if design decisions like the one to drop some icons from the menus are not reflected in them. As long as everybody is reasonable about this, it is not a big problem. Matthias From jlaska at redhat.com Fri Oct 30 14:42:32 2009 From: jlaska at redhat.com (James Laska) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:42:32 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] In-Reply-To: <1256902623.1832.5.camel@planemask> References: <1256846954.2314.66.camel@adam.local.net> <1256849053.1785.10.camel@planemask> <1256850090.2314.75.camel@adam.local.net> <1256902623.1832.5.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <1256913752.2370.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-10-30 at 07:37 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 14:01 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > I dunno, I didn't write those criteria. I guess the idea was to have > > some kind of standard for final desktop polish. I guess my question was > > more or less what you answered above - whether this list knows why this > > is in the release criteria, and whether you'd agree with it. > > I was not involved in the creation of these criteria. It is obviously a > bit unfortunate if design decisions like the one to drop some icons from > the menus are not reflected in them. We'll be looking to refresh the release criteria in the near future. I'm not sure exactly when we'll kick that off, but we'll be sure to solicit feedback from all groups. Thanks, James -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From vaeood at yahoo.com Sat Oct 31 10:46:08 2009 From: vaeood at yahoo.com (Hristo Petkov) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 03:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <20091030160036.1FEA361A9F6@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <567393.3823.qm@web111606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi all, Excuse me - just to ask: What is the idea of polishing F12 while F10 and F11 have fairly low reliability (in working with OpenOffice for example). Today I tried to do some a little bit more complex operations with OpenOffice Writer under F11 and 'went in the Dimension-X'. Regards, Christo Petkov --- On Fri, 10/30/09, fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com wrote: From: fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35 To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 4:00 PM Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to ??? fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? fedora-desktop-list-owner at redhat.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] (Adam Williamson) ???2. Re: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] (Matthias Clasen) ???3. Re: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] (Adam Williamson) ???4. Re: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] (Matthias Clasen) ???5. Re: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] (James Laska) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:09:14 -0700 From: Adam Williamson Subject: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Message-ID: <1256846954.2314.66.camel at adam.local.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" this seems an appropriate topic for desktop-list... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Christopher Beland Subject: F12 icon completeness issues Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:52:47 -0400 Size: 6029 Url: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/attachments/20091029/3ec2a80e/attachment.mht ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:44:13 -0400 From: Matthias Clasen Subject: Re: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1256849053.1785.10.camel at planemask> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 13:09 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > this seems an appropriate topic for desktop-list... I don't think there is much to discuss, though. Yes, the missing abrt icon is a problem. But the fact that not every item in Places and System has an icon was our design decision, and is not a bug in any way. I don't see how those 'missing' icons could even theoretically be considered a release blocker. They don't cause a problem in any way. Matthias ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:01:30 -0700 From: Adam Williamson Subject: Re: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1256850090.2314.75.camel at adam.local.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 16:44 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 13:09 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > this seems an appropriate topic for desktop-list... > > I don't think there is much to discuss, though. > > Yes, the missing abrt icon is a problem. But the fact that not every > item in Places and System has an icon was our design decision, and is > not a bug in any way. > > I don't see how those 'missing' icons could even theoretically be > considered a release blocker. They don't cause a problem in any way. I dunno, I didn't write those criteria. I guess the idea was to have some kind of standard for final desktop polish. I guess my question was more or less what you answered above - whether this list knows why this is in the release criteria, and whether you'd agree with it. Though looking at it again, it's a 'should' not a 'must' issue. Which by my understanding means it's not intended to actually be a blocker (only things on the release criteria page with the keyword 'must' indicate things we'd block for). -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 07:37:03 -0400 From: Matthias Clasen Subject: Re: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1256902623.1832.5.camel at planemask> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 14:01 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > I dunno, I didn't write those criteria. I guess the idea was to have > some kind of standard for final desktop polish. I guess my question was > more or less what you answered above - whether this list knows why this > is in the release criteria, and whether you'd agree with it. I was not involved in the creation of these criteria. It is obviously a bit unfortunate if design decisions like the one to drop some icons from the menus are not reflected in them. As long as everybody is reasonable about this, it is not a big problem. Matthias ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:42:32 -0400 From: James Laska Subject: Re: [Fwd: F12 icon completeness issues] To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop ??? Message-ID: <1256913752.2370.131.camel at localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Fri, 2009-10-30 at 07:37 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 14:01 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > I dunno, I didn't write those criteria. I guess the idea was to have > > some kind of standard for final desktop polish. I guess my question was > > more or less what you answered above - whether this list knows why this > > is in the release criteria, and whether you'd agree with it. > > I was not involved in the creation of these criteria. It is obviously a > bit unfortunate if design decisions like the one to drop some icons from > the menus are not reflected in them. We'll be looking to refresh the release criteria in the near future. I'm not sure exactly when we'll kick that off, but we'll be sure to solicit feedback from all groups. Thanks, James -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/attachments/20091030/c420546e/attachment.bin ------------------------------ -- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list End of Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35 *************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From awilliam at redhat.com Sat Oct 31 16:23:16 2009 From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:23:16 -0700 Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <567393.3823.qm@web111606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <567393.3823.qm@web111606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1257006196.2314.136.camel@adam.local.net> On Sat, 2009-10-31 at 03:46 -0700, Hristo Petkov wrote: > Hi all, > Excuse me - just to ask: What is the idea of polishing F12 while F10 > and F11 have fairly low reliability (in working with OpenOffice for > example). > Today I tried to do some a little bit more complex operations with > OpenOffice Writer under F11 and 'went in the Dimension-X'. For a start, none of the people working on GNOME desktop polish are OpenOffice.org coders. Your question is roughly akin to asking a house painter why he isn't performing surgery on children; that just ain't how things are organized. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net