Some recent changes

[Martin Sourada]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:13 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> I'm sorry, but this is getting completely ridiculous.
> 
> "That's the way how every other team in Fedora is working"?
Ok, I might have been exaggerating; more rather I meant "every other
team in Fedora I came directly in touch with".
> 
> Take for example the XFCE or LXDE sig. From a quick look over the wiki,
> they have no separate mailing lists, no meetings, and I cannot find their
> design discussions or announcements. Nor the kernel team; they do not have
> long public meetings discussing kernel config options, or which kernel
> versions are going where.
> 
If you want to compare yourself compare to the KDE sig, AFAIK XFCE and
LXDE are one-man efforts and not one of our two most important (popular
might be a better word) spins, and kernel is on a completely different
level (even so they're less of a "black box" then you).

> Furthermore,
> 
> On October 1, you said:
> "it would be nice if the code was included before [beta] and the intended
> change was announced and discussed much before that (ideally before feature
> freeze)"
> 
> Now, you want:
> - first outline what you feel is wrong
> - then a proposal (with studies!)
> - all at the beginning of the cycle
> 
I see what you mean, but my opinions aren't set in stone and evolve. Yet
I stand with the first quote as was more meant to the one or two
specific changes you've made, but now you've come with something that
sounds like a whole bigger project that aims on polishing Fedora Gnome
Spin. That needs better coordination so that all the changes are
consistent between themselves, people need to know what's the final goal
and why are you doing the changes. 

You say you want Fedora Gnome Spins to be polished, and that in past
releases it was crap. First tell me why it was crap, then tell me how do
you think we should evolve from crap to polished, discuss it with
community (e.g. design team or upstream opinion on design changes or
usability questions might be good to have) and then start implementing
the changes that fit within the big image. Of course, you need (at)
least a whole release cycle for that, and that's why I'm suggesting you
start with it at the start of the release cycle.

Include studies if there have been done any (apparently there was one
for the "show desktop" icon presence), I'm not suggesting you should do
usability study for everything and a kitchen sink.

> So, if that's done, where will you move the goalposts to next? Does
> the request need to be in triplicate?
> 
My goalposts won't go beyond starting the "polish the desktop" project
at the start of a release cycle.

> Could this have come earlier, and been communicated better? Yeah, I
> think so.
> 
> But I'm really struggling to see why the change from:
>  https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/7/74/Tours_Fedora11_010.png
> to
>  http://notting.fedorapeople.org/Screenshot.png
> 
> is really worth *this* much sturm und drang.
> 
Well, apparently they are. As I implied (hopefully) in my previous post,
I don't think they are worth *this* much themselves, but in the big
picture it really feels like the Gnome Spin is being done behind closed
doors by two or three people from Red Hat and that you are doing
apparently related changes to the default desktop (in name of polishing)
without anyone knowing what your final intention of what the polished
state is is.

Please take no offence, I'd just like more transparency and community
involvement in how one of our most important spins are made.

> Bill
Martin


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