No more kernel-source(code) ??? (was: rawhide report: 20040623 changes)

[Stan Bubrouski]

On Thu, 2004-06-24 at 15:52 -0600, Stephen Smoogen wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-06-24 at 00:29, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > > > > and expect it to be there for whatever arcane method. Just removing it 
> > > > > without openly discussing it first smacks less of a community project 
> > > > 
> > > > we're having the discussion now right?
> > > 
> > > after the fact.
> > > 
> > > Not exactly likely to go back to the way it was, is it?
> > 
> > rawhide is for experimenting and for solliciting comments and see if and why 
> > people care. It's 10x easier to discuss a change when the result is visible
> > instead of theoretical discussions about something that sort of kinda will be like this.
> > 
> 
> While doing and asking forgiveness later is the usual internal Red Hat
> (TM) way.. it doesnt fit into any community other than a dictatorship..
> and a harsh one at that. To put it bluntly, you either want input from
> the community or you dont. Doing it first and then asking for discussion
> ends up with both sides being defensive (as in this and previous cases)
> and by the time it is all worked out a lot of pissed off people on both
> sides really dont want to work with each other anymore.  

I have to agree here.  Honestly the way I see it, people post intros and
are allowed to submit packages for inclusion but the bottom line is that
Red Hat makes ALL the decisions and has the final say over EVERYTHING.
I agree with Stephen that this type of process is not really a community
at all if the community really doesn't have a say at all in the short
term.  And frankly we're not very far along and I'm still not convinced
the 'community' is really making an impact on the long-term future of
Fedora either.  I'm often finding myself more frustrated and beligerant
than I should be now probably because before I knew I had no real say in
how you run your business... which is fair enough since I know little
about how your business is run.  But this illusion of a community seems
like just that: an illusion.

> Basically you are going to lose 3-4 days 'defending' why it had to be
> done, when it could have taken 3-4 days to say this is what we want to
> do, what can we do to make it work with you. Same amount of time lost..
> just not as many tempers.
> 

Yes and what is the result... angry users and no real compromise at all.
Look at the dual-boot thing.  I'm sorry but all those 'whiney windows
users' are right.  They didn't have a say, they were told they were
screwed and were offered insults and flames BY REDHAT in return.

I'm glad someone else spoke up.  Again.  Kudos to you Stephen even if
you don't agree with a thing I said.

-sb

> 
> -- 
> Stephen John Smoogen		smoogen at lanl.gov
> Los Alamos National Lab  CCN-5 Sched 5/40  PH: 4-0645
> Ta-03 SM-1498 MailStop B255 DP 10S  Los Alamos, NM 87545
> -- Please, I have had too much of the stupid today. Please wait until
> -- tomorrow to say these things so my tolerance has refreshed. 
> 
> 
-- 
Stan Bubrouski <stan at ccs.neu.edu>