From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Nov 1 00:15:30 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 11:15:30 +1100 Subject: cd wont boot on an old P200 box In-Reply-To: <1098992541.10054.4.camel@tiger> References: <1098992541.10054.4.camel@tiger> Message-ID: <1099268131.3438.22.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2004-10-28 at 15:42 -0400, Louis Garcia wrote: > Trying to install fc3 on a pentium 200mhz and the cd wont boot. Think > the bios is to old, installed fine on more modern boxes. Any ideas on > how to get fc3 on this sucker? A floppy boot disk would come in handy > about now. Not a development question, so off-topic for fedora-devel-list - good idea to post to fedora-test-list or just searched the archives of fedora-list Nonetheless, using Smart Boot Manager (http://btmgr.sf.net/) is probably a good solution for you -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From zipsonic at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 03:07:22 2004 From: zipsonic at gmail.com (Rick Stout) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:07:22 -0800 Subject: kernel-sourcecode missing? Message-ID: I feel kinda stupid for asking this, but I couldnt find a simple explination, and searching through the list archives didn't help. Is there any particular reason why kernel-sourcecode is missing from the testing tree? It doesnt appear to be in the in Test2 or Test3 either. Just curious if this was missed, or if it is on purpose. Regards, Rick Stout From ggw at wolves.durham.nc.us Mon Nov 1 03:11:37 2004 From: ggw at wolves.durham.nc.us (Gregory Woodbury) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:11:37 -0500 Subject: kernel-sourcecode missing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041101031137.GA760@wolves.durham.nc.us> On Sun, Oct 31, 2004 at 07:07:22PM -0800, Rick Stout wrote: > I feel kinda stupid for asking this, but I couldnt find a simple > explination, and searching through the list archives didn't help. Is > there any particular reason why kernel-sourcecode is missing from the > testing tree? It doesnt appear to be in the in Test2 or Test3 either. > Just curious if this was missed, or if it is on purpose. > > Regards, > > Rick Stout You need to download the .src.rpm for the kernel and generate it. -- G.Wolfe Woodbury `- -' RHCT U The Line Eater is a boojum! From symbiont at berlios.de Mon Nov 1 05:28:10 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:28:10 +0800 Subject: How about the support of FC for laptop? In-Reply-To: <1099263075l.6772l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <20041031171602.55949.qmail@web51505.mail.yahoo.com> <1099258305.4746.14.camel@kyrre> <1099263075l.6772l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <200411011328.10435.symbiont@berlios.de> On Monday 01 November 2004 06:51, Michael A. Peters wrote: > I've had nothing but good experiences with thinkpads and linux. Heat dissipation (fan doesn't spin when it should) and APM/ACPI sleep don't work are the worst things about T30 and related laptops. > I don't know if modern thinkpads are 3 button or not, never used one. Most have three buttons now. If you have the combo-NAV thingy, you have to disable touchpad in the BIOS to get the middle mouse button to work. Now if IBM would write and/or test all of their drivers under Linux, that would be a great day... Hope is on the way though: http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/10/19/15 http://www.thinkwiki.org/ThinkWiki http://mailman.linux-thinkpad.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-thinkpad Would be great, though, if we could somehow coax Kudzu into detecting a laptop and then config the beast to run instead of relying on random HOWTOs everywhere. Guess it would require a mini "Fedora 4 Laptop" project to get going and pipe the output into the fedora-config team. -- -jeff From rodd at clarkson.id.au Mon Nov 1 05:44:11 2004 From: rodd at clarkson.id.au (Rodd Clarkson) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:44:11 +1100 Subject: kernel-sourcecode missing? In-Reply-To: <20041101031137.GA760@wolves.durham.nc.us> References: <20041101031137.GA760@wolves.durham.nc.us> Message-ID: <1099287851.3878.8.camel@clownfish.redfishdemo.com> On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 22:11 -0500, Gregory Woodbury wrote: > On Sun, Oct 31, 2004 at 07:07:22PM -0800, Rick Stout wrote: > > I feel kinda stupid for asking this, but I couldnt find a simple > > explination, and searching through the list archives didn't help. Is > > there any particular reason why kernel-sourcecode is missing from the > > testing tree? It doesnt appear to be in the in Test2 or Test3 either. > > Just curious if this was missed, or if it is on purpose. > You need to download the .src.rpm for the kernel and generate it. It appears to me that there should be some sort of a comment about this somewhere. IT should include the following: * A statement that tells the user most things will compile without needed to install the kernel-sourcecode now. (This is why it was an issue for me, and remained an issue until someone told me I no longer needed it). * A link to, or instructions on how to extract and prepare the source from the .src.rpm file. This question has been asked over and over, and while I'm now aware that you probably don't need the source code, and that if you do you can get it from the src.rpm file, I couldn't tell you how to extract it in such a way as it is as you might expect. This should definitely be included in the RELEASE NOTES. IMHO, Roddd -- >From the pain come the dream >From the dream come the vision >From the vision come the people >From the people come the power >From this power come the change - Peter Gabriel From pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to Mon Nov 1 06:08:54 2004 From: pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to (Paul Iadonisi) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 01:08:54 -0500 Subject: kernel-sourcecode missing? In-Reply-To: <1099287851.3878.8.camel@clownfish.redfishdemo.com> References: <20041101031137.GA760@wolves.durham.nc.us> <1099287851.3878.8.camel@clownfish.redfishdemo.com> Message-ID: <1099289334.1580.78.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 00:44, Rodd Clarkson wrote: [snip] > It appears to me that there should be some sort of a comment about this > somewhere. Agreed. I haven't checked, but I'll take your word for it that it's not in the current release notes. > IT should include the following: > > * A statement that tells the user most things will compile without > needed to install the kernel-sourcecode now. (This is why it was an > issue for me, and remained an issue until someone told me I no longer > needed it). > > * A link to, or instructions on how to extract and prepare the source > from the .src.rpm file. See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=130754 for more info. Hopefully, it will be 'ready enough' for the release of FC3 to reference in the release notes. -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets From pmatilai at welho.com Mon Nov 1 07:15:25 2004 From: pmatilai at welho.com (Panu Matilainen) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:15:25 +0200 (EET) Subject: kernel-sourcecode missing? In-Reply-To: <1099289334.1580.78.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> References: <20041101031137.GA760@wolves.durham.nc.us> <1099287851.3878.8.camel@clownfish.redfishdemo.com> <1099289334.1580.78.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Paul Iadonisi wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 00:44, Rodd Clarkson wrote: > > [snip] > > > It appears to me that there should be some sort of a comment about this > > somewhere. > > Agreed. I haven't checked, but I'll take your word for it that it's > not in the current release notes. It is already documented in current release notes: --- o In order to eliminate the redundancy inherent in providing a separate package for the kernel source code when that source code already exists in the kernel's .src.rpm file, Fedora Core 3 no longer includes the kernel-source package. Users that require access to the kernel sources can find them in the kernel .src.rpm file. To create an exploded source tree from this file, perform the following steps (note that refers to the version specification for your currently-running kernel): [snip] --- - Panu - From dwmw2 at infradead.org Mon Nov 1 08:52:44 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 08:52:44 +0000 Subject: FC3 rpm behavior change In-Reply-To: <1099233393.1580.16.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> References: <1099120855.3697.8.camel@mentorng.gurulabs.com> <20041030082719.GA14923@orient.maison.moi> <1099132859.4771.1.camel@anu.eridu> <1099148803.2347.2.camel@vision> <4183C480.9080201@math.unl.edu> <1099161846.19755.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1099162728l.4007l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> <1099164143.4462.3.camel@proton.cygnusx-1.org> <1099218910.4808.13.camel@athlon.localdomain> <1099233393.1580.16.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: <1099299164.7445.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 09:36 -0500, Paul Iadonisi wrote: > A real solution for multi-lib systems truly seems difficult, but the > problem should be solvable. Perhaps fedora-devel-list is good forum for > that, but maybe rpm-list will suffice. I plan on subscribing to that > list. Don't know how much help I can be, but I'll try. I don't yet, > but will probably soon have an Opteron system to help (at a minimum) > test with. I have plenty of ppc64 machines to hand, on which I often run all of ppc64, ppc32 and i386 binaries. I'm more than willing to help test any proper multilib solution which attempts to solve the problem coherently. -- dwmw2 From thepoch at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 09:02:31 2004 From: thepoch at gmail.com (Dexter Ang) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:02:31 +0800 Subject: How about the support of FC for laptop? In-Reply-To: <200411011328.10435.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <20041031171602.55949.qmail@web51505.mail.yahoo.com> <1099258305.4746.14.camel@kyrre> <1099263075l.6772l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> <200411011328.10435.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:28:10 +0800, Jeff Pitman wrote: > On Monday 01 November 2004 06:51, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > I've had nothing but good experiences with thinkpads and linux. > > Heat dissipation (fan doesn't spin when it should) and APM/ACPI sleep > don't work are the worst things about T30 and related laptops. I'd have to second the first opinion. All my hardware, works very well. ACPI is known to be broken on it, but APM works very well. Suspend-to-RAM and Suspend-to-Disk (hibernate) work for me. I just had to make sure I had a hibernate partition for hibernate to work. I've had a fake uptime of almost 1-month at one time because of hibernate. cpuspeed doesn't work too well as I've been seeing recently. It keeps at the lower speed, and I have to manually poke it to make it go up to 1.8ghz. Of note is that even with the fan on, a full 100% of setiathome gets the laptop up to 76 degrees. Hot! Thank goodness it hasn't melted. > > I don't know if modern thinkpads are 3 button or not, never used one. > > Most have three buttons now. If you have the combo-NAV thingy, you have > to disable touchpad in the BIOS to get the middle mouse button to work. I would like to note that my middle button on my T30 works as long as I do not plug in my USB mouse. If I plug it in while booting, the whole pointing-stick and it's respective button combination don't work. If I boot without the USB mouse, they all work, including middle button. This was stock install of FC2, up to this point with the latest updates, without any changes to xorg.conf. > Would be great, though, if we could somehow coax Kudzu into detecting a > laptop and then config the beast to run instead of relying on random > HOWTOs everywhere. Guess it would require a mini "Fedora 4 Laptop" > project to get going and pipe the output into the fedora-config team. Kudzu for laptop-detection would be nice. But then nothing beats the first-hand experience of someone else who has actually tried out the Fedora Core and Laptop combination. We all know automating hardware detection doesn't always work out correctly. > -jeff dex From symbiont at berlios.de Mon Nov 1 11:42:58 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:42:58 +0800 Subject: How about the support of FC for laptop? In-Reply-To: References: <20041031171602.55949.qmail@web51505.mail.yahoo.com> <200411011328.10435.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <200411011942.58671.symbiont@berlios.de> On Monday 01 November 2004 17:02, Dexter Ang wrote: > We all know automating hardware > detection doesn't always work out correctly. I'm sure a lot of us are thankful that most Monitor frequencies are fully automated. The modelines of X were just an awful experience. Hardware detection can be done, just requires a lot of time and good infrastructure. -- -jeff From philip at balister.org Mon Nov 1 12:26:37 2004 From: philip at balister.org (Philip Balister) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:26:37 -0500 Subject: kernel-sourcecode missing? In-Reply-To: <1099287851.3878.8.camel@clownfish.redfishdemo.com> References: <20041101031137.GA760@wolves.durham.nc.us> <1099287851.3878.8.camel@clownfish.redfishdemo.com> Message-ID: <1099311996.3864.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 00:44, Rodd Clarkson wrote: > On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 22:11 -0500, Gregory Woodbury wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 31, 2004 at 07:07:22PM -0800, Rick Stout wrote: > > > I feel kinda stupid for asking this, but I couldnt find a simple > > > explination, and searching through the list archives didn't help. Is > > > there any particular reason why kernel-sourcecode is missing from the > > > testing tree? It doesnt appear to be in the in Test2 or Test3 either. > > > Just curious if this was missed, or if it is on purpose. > > > You need to download the .src.rpm for the kernel and generate it. > > It appears to me that there should be some sort of a comment about this > somewhere. Information about how to find the kernel source code should be included in the welcome message for fedora-devel :) Philip From buildsys at redhat.com Mon Nov 1 12:51:02 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:51:02 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041101 changes Message-ID: <200411011251.iA1Cp2228768@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: rpmdb-fedora-3-0.20041101 ------------------------- From barryn at pobox.com Mon Nov 1 13:10:46 2004 From: barryn at pobox.com (Barry K. Nathan) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 05:10:46 -0800 Subject: FC3 rpm behavior change In-Reply-To: <20041031195657.7667ade4.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1099148803.2347.2.camel@vision> <4183C480.9080201@math.unl.edu> <1099161846.19755.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1099162728l.4007l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> <1099164143.4462.3.camel@proton.cygnusx-1.org> <1099218910.4808.13.camel@athlon.localdomain> <1099233393.1580.16.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1099246304.12420.49.camel@fuckinalive.unsubscribe.ro> <20041031195657.7667ade4.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <20041101131046.GA1665@ip68-4-98-123.oc.oc.cox.net> On Sun, Oct 31, 2004 at 07:56:57PM +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote: > Would be interesting to know who has payed attention to the rpm > package changelog all the time and was aware of the change when it was > activated. (Maybe I'm just tooting my own horn with this post but I'll go ahead and post it anyway, just in case it turns out to be informative and not egotistical.) I saw the changelog entries at the time, but they were terse enough that I didn't quite pick up on the consequences. Later, I stumbled upon the new behavior. I was going to report it as a bug, but I browsed through Bugzilla first and found bug 131766: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=131766 Since it sounded like an intentional change and it was very late in the dev cycle by the time I fully realized what was going on, I decided to focus on getting it documented rather than changed. Therefore, I filed bug 137033: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=137033 And that's how the change got documented in the release notes in the first place... -Barry K. Nathan From balay at fastmail.fm Mon Nov 1 16:12:40 2004 From: balay at fastmail.fm (Satish Balay) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:12:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: How about the support of FC for laptop? In-Reply-To: References: <20041031171602.55949.qmail@web51505.mail.yahoo.com> <1099258305.4746.14.camel@kyrre> <1099263075l.6772l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> <200411011328.10435.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Dexter Ang wrote: > cpuspeed doesn't work too well as I've been seeing recently. It keeps > at the lower speed, and I have to manually poke it to make it go up to > 1.8ghz. With FC3 cpuspeed defaults changed from '-i 20' to '-i 2' - so the ramp-up from the lowest freq should be faster. (I use '-i 1'). But ideally cpuspeed should also support the option '--ignore-intermediate-freq'. Satish From dwmw2 at infradead.org Mon Nov 1 15:38:39 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:38:39 +0000 Subject: warning to list In-Reply-To: <4181AC88.5030404@mminternet.com> References: <1098672221.9279.1.camel@x1-6-00-0a-e6-c7-6f-d8> <1098745593.3872.176.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> <1098750960.30694.7.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <200410260856.24591.symbiont@berlios.de> <1098752870.30694.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <1098776924.3872.185.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> <417EF153.1070308@mminternet.com> <1098890444.13633.1838.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <4181AC88.5030404@mminternet.com> Message-ID: <1099323519.13633.2160.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-10-28 at 19:35 -0700, Z wrote: > The "flawed" is your opinion. A whole lot of people disagree. Of > course, one can say that SMTP is horribly flawed. Few, if any, people > would disagree. I said that the technical assumptions on which SPF is based are flawed. That part is not disputed by anyone with any clue, and since you seem incapable of understanding even the most basic technical explanation, I gave some examples where even known SPF advocates acknowledge the flaw, and try to invent workarounds for it. You seem very confused, because in response to that you seem to be arguing "No, those people _support_ SPF". Which was sort of my point. I also said that in my opinion, those flaws and the difficulty in fixing them renders SPF completely unworkable. That part _is_ disputed by some. What part of that don't you understand? I'm not going to bother to go through your response in detail -- again you ignored the technical points which you obviously cannot answer, and bizarrely tried to concentrate on personalities. You even seem to try to contradict your own previous admission that forwarding servers need to be 'fixed', and now you claim that there is no flaw to be fixed. Although you mostly perform an Ad Hominem attack upon yourself with your own evident cluelessness and self-contradiction, there there are a couple of things in what you said which I suppose I should address: > > "if we expect it will take 1 to 3 years for the world to > > upgrade, maybe we can take 1 to 3 years to move from > > proposed standard to draft standard to standard." > > -- Meng Weng Wong > > > > > Looks like a non-sequitur to me. What's the context of Wong's quote? > It sounds to me like he's proposing that people adopt the method > before it becomes a standard. The word 'upgrade' in the above is used in direct reply to an objection that SPF would be throwing away real mail until/unless the whole world manages to 'upgrade' to do something like SRS. It's in a mail in which Meng changed the Subject: line to 'migration strategy for "-all"'. Meng has never to my knowledge claimed that SPF doesn't throw away valid mail in today's world. Only the really clueless hangers-on do that. > At the last count, there are almost 200,000 domains publishing SPF > records, including > altavista.com, amazon.com, aol.com , dyndns.org, earthlink.net > ebay.com, gmail.com, gnu.org, hushmail.com , livejournal.com, > mail.com, motleyfool.com, oreilly.com, oxford.ac.uk, perl.org, > philzimmermann.com, sophos.com, spamassassin.org, spamhaus.org, etc. Your list is extremely disingenuous. Some of those are domains which don't ever send mail, and many of the others aren't publishing records with '-all', so aren't actually asking people to throw away valid mail. Either you're being deliberately dishonest, or you really don't seem to understand what you're talking about. This seems to be a common trait among SPF advocates, in my experience. > You realize that you just called Phil Zimmerman, the spamassassin > folks, and the google guys "dim", don't you? It looks like I called whoever set up the SPF records for philzimmermann.com and spamassassin.org 'dim', because they're actually publishing records ending in '-all'. In this context I'll stand by that, if those domains ever do actually send mail. Google aren't dim though -- they've implemented DomainKeys instead, and although they do publish an SPF record they end it in '?all' which isn't actually broken; just mostly irrelevant. But I'm not interested in an argument about personalities. Some of us actually have the capacity to think for ourselves and make decisions on technical grounds rather than just following the crowd, so your deceptively-compiled list of SPF publishers doesn't really make any difference. Since you obviously don't seem capable of thinking for yourself or conducting a _technical_ discussion, I suspect this thread isn't really going to achieve anything productive. Please don't bother to respond unless you actually want to discuss the technical points instead of just spouting names at me. -- dwmw2 From kyrre at solution-forge.net Mon Nov 1 15:46:20 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:46:20 +0100 Subject: How about the support of FC for laptop? In-Reply-To: <200411011328.10435.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <20041031171602.55949.qmail@web51505.mail.yahoo.com> <1099258305.4746.14.camel@kyrre> <1099263075l.6772l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> <200411011328.10435.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <1099323979.2673.6.camel@kyrre> man, 01.11.2004 kl. 06.28 skrev Jeff Pitman: > On Monday 01 November 2004 06:51, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > I've had nothing but good experiences with thinkpads and linux. > > Heat dissipation (fan doesn't spin when it should) and APM/ACPI sleep > don't work are the worst things about T30 and related laptops. > > > I don't know if modern thinkpads are 3 button or not, never used one. > > Most have three buttons now. If you have the combo-NAV thingy, you have > to disable touchpad in the BIOS to get the middle mouse button to work. > > Now if IBM would write and/or test all of their drivers under Linux, > that would be a great day... Hope is on the way though: > http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/10/19/15 > http://www.thinkwiki.org/ThinkWiki > http://mailman.linux-thinkpad.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-thinkpad > > Would be great, though, if we could somehow coax Kudzu into detecting a > laptop and then config the beast to run instead of relying on random > HOWTOs everywhere. Guess it would require a mini "Fedora 4 Laptop" > project to get going and pipe the output into the fedora-config team. > there is something called "laptop detect" floating around. I saw it in an ubuntu install once... > -- > -jeff From kyrre at solution-forge.net Mon Nov 1 15:50:09 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:50:09 +0100 Subject: FC3 rpm behavior change In-Reply-To: <1099299164.7445.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099120855.3697.8.camel@mentorng.gurulabs.com> <20041030082719.GA14923@orient.maison.moi> <1099132859.4771.1.camel@anu.eridu> <1099148803.2347.2.camel@vision> <4183C480.9080201@math.unl.edu> <1099161846.19755.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1099162728l.4007l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> <1099164143.4462.3.camel@proton.cygnusx-1.org> <1099218910.4808.13.camel@athlon.localdomain> <1099233393.1580.16.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1099299164.7445.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1099324209.2673.8.camel@kyrre> man, 01.11.2004 kl. 09.52 skrev David Woodhouse: > On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 09:36 -0500, Paul Iadonisi wrote: > > A real solution for multi-lib systems truly seems difficult, but the > > problem should be solvable. Perhaps fedora-devel-list is good forum for > > that, but maybe rpm-list will suffice. I plan on subscribing to that > > list. Don't know how much help I can be, but I'll try. I don't yet, > > but will probably soon have an Opteron system to help (at a minimum) > > test with. > > I have plenty of ppc64 machines to hand, on which I often run all of > ppc64, ppc32 and i386 binaries. I'm more than willing to help test any > proper multilib solution which attempts to solve the problem coherently. Err... i386 binaries on ppc64? wtf? emulation? From dwmw2 at infradead.org Mon Nov 1 17:03:34 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:03:34 +0000 Subject: FC3 rpm behavior change In-Reply-To: <1099324209.2673.8.camel@kyrre> References: <1099120855.3697.8.camel@mentorng.gurulabs.com> <20041030082719.GA14923@orient.maison.moi> <1099132859.4771.1.camel@anu.eridu> <1099148803.2347.2.camel@vision> <4183C480.9080201@math.unl.edu> <1099161846.19755.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1099162728l.4007l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> <1099164143.4462.3.camel@proton.cygnusx-1.org> <1099218910.4808.13.camel@athlon.localdomain> <1099233393.1580.16.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1099299164.7445.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099324209.2673.8.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1099328614.13633.2181.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 16:50 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > I have plenty of ppc64 machines to hand, on which I often run all of > > ppc64, ppc32 and i386 binaries. I'm more than willing to help test any > > proper multilib solution which attempts to solve the problem coherently. > > Err... i386 binaries on ppc64? wtf? emulation? Yep, in qemu. You can even set up binfmt_misc to recognise i386 ELF binaries and invoke qemu automatically -- even acroread inside a mozilla window with mozplugger works. -- dwmw2 From ndbecker2 at verizon.net Mon Nov 1 19:26:18 2004 From: ndbecker2 at verizon.net (Neal D. Becker) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 14:26:18 -0500 Subject: yum error (x86_64) Message-ID: rpm -q yum yum-2.1.11-2 yum install java-1.4.2-gcj-compat Setting up Install Process Setting up Repo: development repomd.xml 100% |=========================| 1.1 kB 00:06 Reading repository metadata in from local files developmen: ################################################## 3635/3635 Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/bin/yum", line 8, in ? yummain.main(sys.argv[1:]) File "/usr/share/yum-cli/yummain.py", line 68, in main result, resultmsgs = base.doCommands() File "/usr/share/yum-cli/cli.py", line 374, in doCommands return self.installPkgs() File "/usr/share/yum-cli/cli.py", line 734, in installPkgs pkglist = returnBestPackages(toBeInstalled) File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/yum/packages.py", line 123, in returnBestPackages elif rpmUtils.arch.isMultiLibArch(arch=a): File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/rpmUtils/arch.py", line 69, in isMultiLibArch if multilibArches.has_key(arches[arch]): KeyError: 'noarch' From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Nov 1 19:28:12 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 14:28:12 -0500 Subject: yum error (x86_64) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1099337292.28428.0.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 14:26, Neal D. Becker wrote: > rpm -q yum > yum-2.1.11-2 > > yum install java-1.4.2-gcj-compat > Setting up Install Process > Setting up Repo: development > repomd.xml 100% |=========================| 1.1 kB 00:06 > Reading repository metadata in from local files > developmen: ################################################## 3635/3635 > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "/usr/bin/yum", line 8, in ? > yummain.main(sys.argv[1:]) > File "/usr/share/yum-cli/yummain.py", line 68, in main > result, resultmsgs = base.doCommands() > File "/usr/share/yum-cli/cli.py", line 374, in doCommands > return self.installPkgs() > File "/usr/share/yum-cli/cli.py", line 734, in installPkgs > pkglist = returnBestPackages(toBeInstalled) > File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/yum/packages.py", line 123, in > returnBestPackages > elif rpmUtils.arch.isMultiLibArch(arch=a): > File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/rpmUtils/arch.py", line 69, in > isMultiLibArch > if multilibArches.has_key(arches[arch]): > KeyError: 'noarch' bugzilla is our friend, sorta. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=137711 -sv From jcb at lite.dk Mon Nov 1 20:02:27 2004 From: jcb at lite.dk (Jan Brond) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:02:27 +0100 Subject: kernel-sourcecode missing? In-Reply-To: <1099289334.1580.78.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> References: <20041101031137.GA760@wolves.durham.nc.us> <1099287851.3878.8.camel@clownfish.redfishdemo.com> <1099289334.1580.78.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: <41869653.9000203@lite.dk> Paul Iadonisi wrote: >On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 00:44, Rodd Clarkson wrote: > >[snip] > > > >>It appears to me that there should be some sort of a comment about this >>somewhere. >> >> > > Agreed. I haven't checked, but I'll take your word for it that it's >not in the current release notes. > > > >>IT should include the following: >> >>* A statement that tells the user most things will compile without >>needed to install the kernel-sourcecode now. (This is why it was an >>issue for me, and remained an issue until someone told me I no longer >>needed it). >> >>* A link to, or instructions on how to extract and prepare the source >>from the .src.rpm file. >> >> > > See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=130754 for >more info. Hopefully, it will be 'ready enough' for the release of FC3 >to reference in the release notes. > > > The above mentioned document does a good job. Its nice and easy explained. Unfortunatly the way of building the kernel is pretty strange/confusing and the installing of the kernel (using rpm) took quite some time to finish (around 5min which is way more than copying the files to the /boot dir and modify grub.conf). Maybe rpm is doing some dependency checking before installing the files(maybe it could be switch off to improve install time). If you are tweaking the kernel the turnaround time for compiling, installing and reboot is much slower than with standard kernel tar ball. A major setback in my mind. Another thing I have had quite some problems building a new working kernel based on the souce code (v. 2.6.9-1.643). Everytime I try to run it I get Kernel Panic - Not Syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0) (ext2,ext3 is included). I build a similar kernel under Redhat 7.3 (same computer but kernel tar ball 2.6.9 from kernel.org) and there I did not have any problems making the kernel work. Well if someone have had the same problem and could help me solve the problem I would be greatfull. Thanks JanB From mr700 at mr700.cjb.net Mon Nov 1 21:08:09 2004 From: mr700 at mr700.cjb.net (Doncho N. Gunchev) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:08:09 +0200 Subject: Mail gui config In-Reply-To: <1099133959.23131.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20041030003519.60395.qmail@web80704.mail.yahoo.com> <1099101501.18072.736.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1099133959.23131.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200411012308.09997@-mr700> On 2004-10-30 (Saturday) 13:59, Mircea MITU wrote: > > exclude Sendmail from Fedora because someone likes Postfix more. > > > > To exclude Sendmail, it would be stupid, but making Postfix the default > MTA it would be a smart move. > Excluding sendmail is not an option at all. I prefer (and use) postfix too, but even an option to install postfix (or exim) as default mail server would be a good first step too. PS: 'Sendmail X' is comming (http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/sm-X/) and it's design looks quite postfix-like to me (human readable config, modular design)... -- Regards, Doncho N. Gunchev Registered Linux User #291323 at counter.li.org GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/DA454F79 http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 684F 688B C508 C609 0371 5E0F A089 CB15 DA45 4F79 From dcbw at redhat.com Mon Nov 1 21:14:05 2004 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:14:05 -0500 Subject: kernel-sourcecode missing? In-Reply-To: <41869653.9000203@lite.dk> References: <20041101031137.GA760@wolves.durham.nc.us> <1099287851.3878.8.camel@clownfish.redfishdemo.com> <1099289334.1580.78.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <41869653.9000203@lite.dk> Message-ID: <1099343645.23880.11.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 21:02 +0100, Jan Brond wrote: > The above mentioned document does a good job. Its nice and easy explained. > Unfortunatly the way of building the kernel is pretty strange/confusing > and the installing of the kernel (using rpm) took quite some time to > finish (around 5min which is way more than copying the files to the > /boot dir and modify grub.conf). Maybe rpm is doing some dependency > checking before installing the files(maybe it could be switch off to > improve install time). If you are tweaking the kernel the turnaround The %install/%post do a lot of hardlinking of files too, I forget exactly where, probably in /lib and whatnot. Dan From kevymac at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 21:55:19 2004 From: kevymac at yahoo.com (Kevin McConnell) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:55:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: cd wont boot on an old P200 box In-Reply-To: <1099268131.3438.22.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <20041101215519.56497.qmail@web50508.mail.yahoo.com> --- Colin Charles wrote: > On Thu, 2004-10-28 at 15:42 -0400, Louis Garcia > wrote: > > Trying to install fc3 on a pentium 200mhz and the > cd wont boot. Think > > the bios is to old, installed fine on more modern > boxes. Any ideas on > > how to get fc3 on this sucker? A floppy boot disk > would come in handy > > about now. > > Not a development question, so off-topic for > fedora-devel-list - good > idea to post to fedora-test-list or just searched > the archives of > fedora-list > > Nonetheless, using Smart Boot Manager > (http://btmgr.sf.net/) is probably > a good solution for you Since I didn't see them post it to the fedora-test-list, I'll answer it here this one time: It's probably not the machine itself.... it's most likely the cdrom that came with the old p200 that's the problem. When the boot manager switched to isolinux, most pre-1997 cdroms stopped working. Try flashing your BIOS and installing a new cdrom. That's how I got my old pentium 200 to work. ===== Kevin C. McConnell --RHCE # 805299480800193 since July 2, 1999-- Freedom in software, now freedom in life. http://www.freestateproject.org/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From zleite at mminternet.com Tue Nov 2 02:45:58 2004 From: zleite at mminternet.com (Z) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:45:58 -0800 Subject: mail gui In-Reply-To: <1099239222.1580.42.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> References: <20041030161815.66576.qmail@web80707.mail.yahoo.com> <1099154655.18072.818.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1099156448.13009.13.camel@supernova> <1099164000l.4007l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> <36B00DD6E63F1CE01230854D@[10.0.0.4]> <1099184852l.13490l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1099186122.19755.34.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1099214614.24214.6.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1099232754.1580.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <418509CF.6000709@mminternet.com> <1099239222.1580.42.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: <4186F4E6.8040205@mminternet.com> Paul Iadonisi wrote: >On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 10:50, Z wrote: > >[snip] > > > >>Now for the stupid question of the day: Why wasn't the config files >>changed to something decent? >>Why is it still using cryptic m4 macros to create even more cryptic configs? >> >> > > Um, actually, what makes you say that the m4 macros are cryptic? Now, > > Well, stuff like "define(`confAUTH_OPTIONS', `A p y')dnl" is not exactly self-describing... >m4 itself is *extremely* difficult to read and debug if you are writing >your own FEATURES, HACKS, or proto.m4 changes, but that's another >matter. The whole purpose of using m4, however, is to make life >easier...and it certainly does, as features now have meaningful names, >instead of stuff like R*&$&^!( > And if you *can* do everything with m4 macros (you can't, but almost >can), then who really cares what the .cf file looks like? It's no >different than compiling a source program getting a binary result. Yes, >many would argue that the output looks the same (heh), but if you stick >modifying the m4 file, it shouldn't really matter. > > The problem is that I don't believe tha every possible combination of macros has been validated. If things don't work as you expect, you'll have to see if the generated .cf indeed looks like what you tried to accomplish. At that point, you're screwed. > That said, I believe one of the significant changes in SendmailX is >the new config file format. From what I've seen, it looks *much* more >readable. I don't know about actual rewriting rulesets, however. I >think the changes are aimed more at the everything but the rulesets (map >definitions, options, milter definitions, etc.). Given what the >rulesets actually do, it's hard to imagine a better way to do it and >still maintain the current flexibility. But I could be wrong...that may >be changed, too. I have a copy of smX-0.0.16, so I'll take a look. > >[snip] > > > >>Anyone tried commercial sendmail? Is it different? >> >> > > A few years ago, yes, I did. But the codebase is the same, with a few >features added strictly for administration, plus the web gui. Nothing >to write home about, IMHO. > > Thanks for the info. Spared me some work. Z From zleite at mminternet.com Tue Nov 2 02:48:45 2004 From: zleite at mminternet.com (Z) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:48:45 -0800 Subject: Mail gui config In-Reply-To: <4184ABA0.2050003@Utel.no> References: <20041030003519.60395.qmail@web80704.mail.yahoo.com> <1099101501.18072.736.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1099133959.23131.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099137171.29563.9.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1099166022.5996.17.camel@scania> <1099170885.10268.9.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <000101c4bed4$587fa100$14aaa8c0@utelsystems.local> <4184ABA0.2050003@Utel.no> Message-ID: <4186F58D.7030406@mminternet.com> Nils O. Sel?sdal wrote: > Mircea MITU wrote: > >> >>> >> >> >> You're right, those are silly reasons. But I, for one, I see two major >> reasons to make this switch, from sendmail to postfix as the MTA of >> choice: >> >> 1. SANS Top Vulnerabilities, U5. Mail Transport Service >> http://www.sans.org/top20/#u5 >> >> 2. The very first thing done by the almost all the people I know after a >> RH/Fedora install, is rpm -e sendmail >> >> I really wonder how many subscribers are still using Sendmail. > It's a very well known variable these days, and still is the reference implementation. I don't like sendmail myself, but postfix is pretty complex as well. > For the record, I do. I see no reason I should switch to something else. > > -- > Nils O. Sel?sdal > www.utelsystems.com > From usernamenumber at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 04:00:15 2004 From: usernamenumber at gmail.com (Brad Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:00:15 -0800 Subject: fedoratracker.org: An update and a request Message-ID: Hi folks, First the update: Since fedoratracker.org launched the number of packages indexed by it has increased dramitically. This, as I'm sure many of you have noticed, has had a very serious affect on performance. When the problem got so bad that I found myself googling for packages instead of using my own tool (believe me, that is _not_ a fun position to be in) I knew something had to be done before FC3 was released. So, long story short, over the last several months I've devoted an inordinate amount of time to comepletely re-writing chunks of the Tracker's back-end code to improve performance and am pretty happy with the results. Improvements in this revision: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Very significant increases in package search speeds. Listing all packages in FC1 now takes about 9 seconds, for example. Once the DB has cached the result, the same search takes only 3 seconds. - Scalability improvements (so you can expect it to stay fast for the forseeable future) - Results are now shown 25 at a time instead of loading every match at once. I'm open to feedback about whether this number should be increased. - You can now search by package category, something I've been wanting to implement for a long time - Improved logging and exception handling Known issues that I will fix when I can, but have no timeframe for because I have to get back to the Real Job(tm) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Repository searches can still take about 15-20 seconds. I've figured out ways to cut this time down significantly but haven't had time to implement them yet. - For some reason the fedora.us repos did not index properly during the last nightly database update. Hopefully this problem will fix itsself on the next run. - I just noticed that the link for listing files in a package doesn't currently show anything. Not sure why this is. Probably a quick fix once I get around to it. Please check it out and I hope you find it useful. If you have comments, questions or bug reports, either respond in this thread or email brads -at- red hat com. http://www.fedoratracker.org --Brad From usernamenumber at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 04:22:41 2004 From: usernamenumber at gmail.com (Brad Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:22:41 -0800 Subject: D'oh! Forgot the request (was Re: fedoratracker.org: An update and a request) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The title of my last email mentioned a request, but I never actually got around to making one. =:) Those of you who have been to fedoratracker.org have no doubt noticed that the layout is quite spartan. I designed it to be quick-loading and functional (not to mention links-friendly). However, there is one graphical element of the site: the animated gif that displays while a search is running. Once upon a time I cobbled this together from GIS searches that inevitably led me to one store or another's online catalogue. As a result, the images used for it are probably all someone else's intellectial property and there's always the chance, small as it may be, that someday someone might notice and get upset about this. That, and it doesn't look very good in the first place. =;) So... if anyone out there is artistically inclined (or just interested-- my own abject lack of artistic talent didn't stop me from trying, after all) in creating a replacement, please do so and respond with a link (or just email me directly if you're feeling shy). If I find something I like I'll use it. The only restrictions are that it: 1) Look cool 2) Be animated (since the whole point is to let the user know that, yes, the site is still alive) 3) Be composed exclusively of public-domain or otherwise IP-free images I'm curious to see if anyone responds. --Brad From buildsys at redhat.com Tue Nov 2 13:24:35 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:24:35 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041102 changes Message-ID: <200411021324.iA2DOZj09985@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: NetworkManager-0.3.1-3 ---------------------- * Fri Oct 29 2004 - 0.3.1-3 - #rh137047# lots of applets, yay! anaconda-help-10.1.0-1 ---------------------- * Mon Nov 01 2004 Jeremy Katz - 10.1.0-1 - make sure build occurs with a UTF-8 locale to ensure the appopriate locale is used for all help files (#137668) gthumb-2.4.2-5 -------------- * Fri Oct 29 2004 David Malcolm - 2.4.2-5 - updated 64-bit patch for #137594 to cover the libgthumb subdirectory (previous patch only covererd src subdirectory) jwhois-3.2.2-6 -------------- * Mon Sep 13 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 3.2.2-6 - Recognize more redirections at whois.arin.net (#116423) rpm-4.3.2-21 ------------ * Mon Nov 01 2004 Bill Nottingham 4.3.2-21 - remove excess rpmIncreaseVerbosity() calls (fixes #137834) * Sun Oct 31 2004 Jeff Johnson 4.3.2-20 - fix: buffer overrun displaying ko_KR (#135389). * Sat Oct 30 2004 Jeff Johnson 4.3.2-18 - reprise file conflicts yet again, flip/flop/flip/flop ... rpmdb-fedora-3-0.20041102 ------------------------- selinux-policy-targeted-1.17.30-2.19 ------------------------------------ * Mon Nov 01 2004 Dan Walsh 1.17.30-2.19 - Fix patch * Mon Nov 01 2004 Dan Walsh 1.17.30-2.16 - Fix mailman file context * Mon Nov 01 2004 Dan Walsh 1.17.30-2.15 - Add associate patch for removable devices yum-2.1.11-3 ------------ * Sun Oct 31 2004 Bill Nottingham - 2.1.11-3 - fix multilib update patch to allow installing noarch (#135396, continued) From twaugh at redhat.com Tue Nov 2 13:48:13 2004 From: twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:48:13 +0000 Subject: status of ghostscript In-Reply-To: <1098217150.20360.6.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <417034D3.1010906@wanadoo.es> <20041019081644.GN14187@redhat.com> <41754557.2000103@wanadoo.es> <20041019165546.GT14187@redhat.com> <41755FDB.7060702@wanadoo.es> <20041019192052.GV14187@redhat.com> <1098215167.19876.28.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <417571C3.8040707@wanadoo.es> <1098217150.20360.6.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20041102134812.GA8596@redhat.com> On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 10:19:10PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Similarly getting code into gs require upstream noticing (and getting > authorisation to use) a patch, merge it into their main version, and > _then_ wait for the next version so this one can be freed/gpl'd. Same > problem -> different priorities, long wait -> huge patch queue. > > Getting patches in a common free fork would make it easier for upstream > to find them, and provide a common root so fixes can be propagated > quickly among free systems. This is certainly quite a big pull for us to move to ESP Ghostscript, IMHO. There is also a community push to re-base ESP Ghostscript on GNU Ghostscript 8.15. Perhaps the best thing would be to switch to ESP Ghostscript first (and iron out any problems that we come across) -- and then help with the upgrade to 8.15. Opinions? Tim. */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Tue Nov 2 16:23:16 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:23:16 +0100 Subject: FC3rc5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041102172316.75c43a91.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Elliot Lee wrote : > This is likely to be the last FC3 release candidate, so please give it > all the loving attention you possibly can. It does have fixes for some of > the more serious issues reported here - your efforts are having results. > When testing FC3rc5, things that could use extra-special attention are > upgrades and the kernel. Please make sure to file any showstopper bugs > (data loss or corruption, major install/upgrade failures) in bugzilla > and bring the bug #'s to our attention. I've got a usability bug, which I don't really know where to file as it seems to concern both firstboot and system-config-display (the latter, I guess) : Although I can choose "LCD 1680x1050" as my screen in firstboot, I cannot choose that resolution to be the default as it's not offered. Definitely not a showstopper, but it's the one bug that kept me from getting a new running system entirely avoiding using a terminal (I had to edit xorg.conf manually to get the right resolution...). What a pity ;-) Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.649.radeon Load : 0.13 0.60 0.78 From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Tue Nov 2 16:32:53 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:32:53 +0100 Subject: 1680x1050 resolution (was: Re: FC3rc5) In-Reply-To: <20041102172316.75c43a91.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <20041102172316.75c43a91.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <20041102173253.04867556.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Matthias Saou wrote : > Although I can choose "LCD 1680x1050" as my screen in firstboot, I cannot > choose that resolution to be the default as it's not offered. Seems like Alan Cox already reported it back in August : #130604 I guess it won't be fixed for the final, though, too bad :-( Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.649.radeon Load : 0.37 0.44 0.59 From seyman at wanadoo.fr Tue Nov 2 18:35:10 2004 From: seyman at wanadoo.fr (Emmanuel Seyman) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:35:10 +0100 Subject: 1680x1050 resolution (was: Re: FC3rc5) In-Reply-To: <20041102173253.04867556.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <20041102172316.75c43a91.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <20041102173253.04867556.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <20041102183510.GA4889@orient.maison.moi> On Tue, Nov 02, 2004 at 05:32:53PM +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > > Seems like Alan Cox already reported it back in August : #130604 > I guess it won't be fixed for the final, though, too bad :-( The meta-bug involved seems to be #122739 . This one gets my vote as must-fix for FC 4 . Emmanuel From feliciano.matias at free.fr Tue Nov 2 22:17:07 2004 From: feliciano.matias at free.fr (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?F=E9liciano?= Matias) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:17:07 +0100 Subject: readahead.files outdated Message-ID: <1099433827.9198.7.camel@one.myworld> /etc/readahead.early.files /etc/readahead.files are the same in FC2 and FC3. From satow at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 3 03:45:51 2004 From: satow at ssl.berkeley.edu (Bruce Satow) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:45:51 -0800 Subject: Problem with Fedora Core 2 remote kdesktop Message-ID: <4188546F.202@ssl.berkeley.edu> Dear Folks, At work, on my WinXP Pro computer, I start Exceed (x server), then run my SSH client to connect to my home linux server. I have set up my SSH client to tunnel all X11 connections. I can run all my X applications this way. When my server at home was running under RH9.0, I could SSH in (as described above) to my home server from work, and at the linux prompt typed the command 'kdesktop'. Then the entire KDE desktop would appear on my remote computer. All the default desktop icons, the taskbar at the bottom of the screen, all appear normally. No need for VNC services this way. And it is secure since I am tunneling my X11 connection through SSH. However there is a bug that I found.under FC2. Under Fedora Core 2, using the same method (as described above), only the desktop wallpaper appears. None of the desktop icons appear, no taskbar. The submenu from the mouse buttons work. This is a bummer for me since I upgraded from RH9 to FC2. I don't really know how to fix this problem and I don't wish to run VNC server Any ideas? From pbruna at linuxcenterla.com Wed Nov 3 03:13:48 2004 From: pbruna at linuxcenterla.com (Patricio Bruna V.) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:13:48 -0300 Subject: gnome 2.9 Message-ID: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> would gnome 2.9 be available for fc3 or fedora devel? -- Patricio Bruna http://www.linuxcenterla.com Ingeniero de Proyectos Canada # 239 Piso 5 Red Hat Certified Engineer Providencia, Santiago - CHILE Linux Center Latinoamerica Fono: +56 2 2745000, Fax : +56 22747075 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje est? firmada digitalmente URL: From lightingisfun at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 05:04:31 2004 From: lightingisfun at gmail.com (David Corrigan) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:04:31 -0800 Subject: 1680x1050 resolution (was: Re: FC3rc5) In-Reply-To: <20041102183510.GA4889@orient.maison.moi> References: <20041102172316.75c43a91.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <20041102173253.04867556.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <20041102183510.GA4889@orient.maison.moi> Message-ID: <7248933a041102210468c92d97@mail.gmail.com> can it be done by hand by editing the config file? David On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:35:10 +0100, Emmanuel Seyman wrote: > On Tue, Nov 02, 2004 at 05:32:53PM +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > > > > Seems like Alan Cox already reported it back in August : #130604 > > I guess it won't be fixed for the final, though, too bad :-( > > The meta-bug involved seems to be #122739 . > This one gets my vote as must-fix for FC 4 . > > Emmanuel > > > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From lightingisfun at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 05:10:22 2004 From: lightingisfun at gmail.com (David Corrigan) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:10:22 -0800 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <7248933a041102211031990aa7@mail.gmail.com> I new to Fedora but from what I've gathered Fedora needs to have a stable release soon. Upgrading something of that magnitude right before a major release probably shouldn't happen till the next test version. David On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:13:48 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > would gnome 2.9 be available for fc3 or fedora devel? > > -- > Patricio Bruna http://www.linuxcenterla.com > Ingeniero de Proyectos Canada # 239 Piso 5 > Red Hat Certified Engineer Providencia, Santiago - CHILE > Linux Center Latinoamerica Fono: +56 2 2745000, Fax : +56 22747075 > > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > > > From paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk Wed Nov 3 07:41:09 2004 From: paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk (Paul) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:41:09 +0000 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <1099467669.19367.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, > would gnome 2.9 be available for fc3 or fedora devel? rawhide. I have a feeling that other than minor stuff (unless there is a security hole) that things are stuck now as FC3 is due to hit the streets in 5 days IIRC TTFN Paul -- "Trust me, I know what I'm doing" - Det. Sledgehammer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From astrand at lysator.liu.se Wed Nov 3 08:05:09 2004 From: astrand at lysator.liu.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_=C5strand?=) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:05:09 +0100 (MET) Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) Message-ID: >Yes, here's the linux registry topic again. This project looks >interesting. Any comments? > >http://registry.sourceforge.net/ If you are interested in "configuration frameworks" but feels that Elektra just isn't the right way to go, I suggest that you take a look at my own project Hiveconf: http://freshmeat.net/projects/hiveconf/ In my opinion, the design makes it much less intrusive than Elektra. For example, I don't expect that we can convince projects like Apache, Sendmail, Postfix, Samba etc to change configuration file formats. Instead, the configuration system should support different file formats by "plugins" or "backends". My thoughs on the Elektra project can be found at http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=5087023&forum_id=40176 A Python implementation of Hiveconf exists. The next step is to write a C implementation and plugins. /Peter ?strand From mcwimpy at gmx.at Wed Nov 3 09:24:33 2004 From: mcwimpy at gmx.at (Markus Nicolussi) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:24:33 +0100 (MET) Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on ibook2001 + B&W PowerMacG3 References: <587.1099416812@www72.gmx.net> Message-ID: <32655.1099473873@www33.gmx.net> Hello! i sucked the ppc-devel-tree to my hd, set up a NFS server for the downloaded files and burned boot.iso from the dir "mac". The boot cd booted but it found no network device, and i don't know how to set up the module-parameters which it's maybe requesting... all i know i took from the HOWTO at http://www.bytebot.net/geekdocs/ibook/fedorappc.html I couldn't by all efforts find more about this topic in the net... in this HOWTO it says that one schould use the "sungem" driver for the internal network device, but this doesn't help (maybe this tip applies only for ibookG4s?) Does anybody have experience with this topic and could give me a hint? Thanks in advance caio, nico. -- NEU +++ DSL Komplett von GMX +++ http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl GMX DSL-Netzanschluss + Tarif zum superg?nstigen Komplett-Preis! From rodd at clarkson.id.au Wed Nov 3 09:25:55 2004 From: rodd at clarkson.id.au (Rodd Clarkson) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:25:55 +1100 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 00:13 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > would gnome 2.9 be available for fc3 or fedora devel? GNOME uses similar versioning to the kernel. So 2.8 is a stable release, and 2.9 is a development release. As such, you don't want to be using 2.9.x unless you are willing to test gnome as it heads for a stable release 2.10 I'm fairly confident that 2.10 will be included in FC4 since they have similar release schedules. Rodd > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- >From the pain come the dream >From the dream come the vision >From the vision come the people >From the people come the power >From this power come the change - Peter Gabriel From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Wed Nov 3 11:11:01 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:11:01 +0100 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Hi Peter, On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 09:05, Peter ?strand wrote: > >Yes, here's the linux registry topic again. This project looks > >interesting. Any comments? > > > >http://registry.sourceforge.net/ > > If you are interested in "configuration frameworks" but feels that Elektra > just isn't the right way to go, I suggest that you take a look at my own > project Hiveconf: http://freshmeat.net/projects/hiveconf/ Again, I will advocate to avoid central failure points for the whole system, just for the shake of "it will be great for newbies". ITOH hiveconf scares me less than the Linux Registry does. -- Iago Rubio From mso at medical-insight.com Wed Nov 3 11:20:05 2004 From: mso at medical-insight.com (Morten Sylvest Olsen) Date: 03 Nov 2004 12:20:05 +0100 Subject: prelink modification ? Message-ID: <1099480805.4416.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi. Perhaps experts on prelinking are lurking on this list? :) I would like to modify prelink to exclude *some* of a binaries needed libraries from prelinking. So if I depend on library A, B, C then A and B are prelinked, while normal relocation processing is done for library C. I guess I could just dlopen the library, but it would be nicer if I didn't have to manually dlsym 1000 symbols. There might be some architectural hurdle for doing this, and it would be nice to know before starting trying to hack the prelink code too much I have the "usual" problem, namely a dependency on a binary libGL which has non-pic code included. I cannot use open-source drivers, unfortunately, and I actually *need* to use OpenGL With regards, Morten -- Morten Sylvest Olsen, System Developer Medical Insight A/S, Hovedgaden 451 C,2640 Hedehusene, Denmark Phone:+4546550444, Mobile:+4551573092,Mail: mso at medical-insight.com From jakub at redhat.com Wed Nov 3 12:02:49 2004 From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:02:49 -0500 Subject: prelink modification ? In-Reply-To: <1099480805.4416.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099480805.4416.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041103120249.GF10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 03, 2004 at 12:20:05PM +0100, Morten Sylvest Olsen wrote: > Hi. > > Perhaps experts on prelinking are lurking on this list? :) > > I would like to modify prelink to exclude *some* of a binaries needed > libraries from prelinking. So if I depend on library A, B, C then A and > B are prelinked, while normal relocation processing is done for library > C. I guess I could just dlopen the library, but it would be nicer if I This can't work. The whole point of prelinking is that symbol resolution and relocation processing is done at prelink time, not at startup time. If some library is not prelinked, you need to check all (non-relative) relocations at startup time, as they might or might not resolve to the library C. What could be done is use one of the bits in Elf{32,64}_Lib structure in .gnu.liblist section to mean this library is DT_TEXTREL and must be mprotected RW for .gnu.conflict application. But beware that in the case of NVidia libGL.so there will be thousands of conflicts. I've told them multiple times, but apparently they aren't listening. I have a patch for the XFree86/Xorg libGL.so that makes it non-DT_TEXTREL while not slowing it down and also cutting down the number of dynamic relocations a lot, but I lost my hopes in getting it merged upstream. Jakub From pbruna at linuxcenterla.com Wed Nov 3 12:17:20 2004 From: pbruna at linuxcenterla.com (Patricio Bruna V.) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:17:20 -0300 Subject: SPECS files Message-ID: <1099484240.3923.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> are the specs files availables anywhere beside the srpms packages? -- Patricio Bruna http://www.linuxcenterla.com Ingeniero de Proyectos Canada # 239 Piso 5 Red Hat Certified Engineer Providencia, Santiago - CHILE Linux Center Latinoamerica Fono: +56 2 2745000, Fax : +56 22747075 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje est? firmada digitalmente URL: From buildsys at redhat.com Wed Nov 3 12:58:43 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:58:43 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041103 changes Message-ID: <200411031258.iA3Cwh730780@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: gettext-0.14.1-12 ----------------- * Mon Nov 01 2004 Leon Ho - fix call on phase0_getc() - fix temp file issue (#136323 - CAN-2004-0966 - mjc) kernel-2.6.9-1.667 ------------------ * Tue Nov 02 2004 Dave Jones - Rebuild. * Mon Nov 01 2004 Dave Jones - Fix memory leak on x86-64 in mixed 32/64 mode. (#132947) - Yet another USB card reader for the whitelist. (#137722) ppp-2.4.2-6.4.FC3 ----------------- * Tue Nov 02 2004 Thomas Woerner 2.4.2-6.4.FC3 - fixed out of bounds memory access, possible DOS rpmdb-fedora-3-0.20041103 ------------------------- udev-039-6.FC3.1 ---------------- * Tue Nov 02 2004 Harald Hoyer - 039-6.FC3.1 - speed up pam_console.dev - mount pts and shm, in case of the dev trigger - increased timeout for udevstart - removed syslog() from signal handler (caused vmware locks) - turned off logging, which speeds up the boot process From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Wed Nov 3 14:09:59 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:09:59 +0100 Subject: fedoratracker.org: An update and a request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041103150959.0d29b60b.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Something's wrong with the indexer. Searching for "k3b" in the default search form returns Fedora Core 2 packages as: "Matches in Fedora Extras (showing 1-4 of 4)" Looking at the details, it finds these in the download.fedora.us mirror of Fedora Core and Fedora Core Updates. -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.649 loadavg: 1.23 1.12 0.79 From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Nov 3 14:36:43 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 01:36:43 +1100 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on ibook2001 + B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <32655.1099473873@www33.gmx.net> References: <587.1099416812@www72.gmx.net> <32655.1099473873@www33.gmx.net> Message-ID: <1099492603.3364.32.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 10:24 +0100, Markus Nicolussi wrote: > i sucked the ppc-devel-tree to my hd, set up a NFS server for the downloaded > files and burned boot.iso from the dir "mac". The boot cd booted but it > found no network device, and i don't know how to set up the > module-parameters which it's maybe requesting... The iBook 2001 should in theory use the sungem drivers. Does it have airport? You can use the airport driver Also, bmac possibly for the PowerMac g3 (though I don't know many who've run it on that - its NewWorld I hope) > Does anybody have experience with this topic and could give me a hint? Also, the best place to discuss PPC-ness is the fedora- ppc at lists.infradead.org mailing list - do give that a subscribe, thanks -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From bobgus at rcn.com Wed Nov 3 14:51:15 2004 From: bobgus at rcn.com (Bob Gustafson) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:51:15 -0600 Subject: Penguins caught in a flutter - Financial Times In-Reply-To: <200411031258.iA3Cwh730780@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Hi There is a nice report on Linux in today's issue of The Financial Times (http://www.ft.com). This is the UK version of the Wall Street Journal - widely available in the US (printed on orangy colored paper). The link to the Linux report/articles is http://news.ft.com/reports/ftit - although the full text of the articles is available only if you have a subscription. Grab it today at your newstand for much less. The Financial Times is published 6 days a week by Pearson (PSO) who also own half of The Economist. They have a good bunch of columnists with refreshing opinions. BobG From dwmw2 at infradead.org Wed Nov 3 14:59:17 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:59:17 +0000 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on ibook2001 + B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <1099492603.3364.32.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> References: <587.1099416812@www72.gmx.net> <32655.1099473873@www33.gmx.net> <1099492603.3364.32.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1099493957.13633.2289.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 01:36 +1100, Colin Charles wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 10:24 +0100, Markus Nicolussi wrote: > > > i sucked the ppc-devel-tree to my hd, set up a NFS server for the downloaded > > files and burned boot.iso from the dir "mac". The boot cd booted but it > > found no network device, and i don't know how to set up the > > module-parameters which it's maybe requesting... > > The iBook 2001 should in theory use the sungem drivers. I've seen anaconda happily load the sungem driver, then fail to notice that there's now an eth0 and demand that you specify a network driver to load. Helpfully it notices that sungem is already loaded though, so it removes that from the list of options :) I don't remember if there was a workaround for this; I don't think it's been fixed. Paul? -- dwmw2 From usernamenumber at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 14:59:38 2004 From: usernamenumber at gmail.com (Brad Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:59:38 -0800 Subject: fedoratracker.org: An update and a request In-Reply-To: <20041103150959.0d29b60b.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <20041103150959.0d29b60b.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:09:59 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote: > Something's wrong with the indexer. Searching for "k3b" in the default > search form returns Fedora Core 2 packages as: > > "Matches in Fedora Extras (showing 1-4 of 4)" > > Looking at the details, it finds these in the download.fedora.us > mirror of Fedora Core and Fedora Core Updates. Ah. All the promotions from third-party to core, extras, etc are done manually by me. I probably just mis-categorized that repo. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I'll look at it as soon as I get the chance. From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Wed Nov 3 15:03:48 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:03:48 +0100 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on ibook2001 + B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <1099492603.3364.32.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net>; from byte@aeon.com.my on Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 01:36:43AM +1100 References: <587.1099416812@www72.gmx.net> <32655.1099473873@www33.gmx.net> <1099492603.3364.32.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <20041103160348.A26738@ryoko.camperquake.de> On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 01:36:43AM +1100, Colin Charles wrote: > The iBook 2001 should in theory use the sungem drivers. Does it have > airport? You can use the airport driver sungem was loaded automagically and worked just as expected on my ibook2 (500MHz, thus fairly old) when I was installing 10 days ago. From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Nov 3 15:13:22 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 02:13:22 +1100 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on ibook2001 + B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <1099493957.13633.2289.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> References: <587.1099416812@www72.gmx.net> <32655.1099473873@www33.gmx.net> <1099492603.3364.32.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> <1099493957.13633.2289.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1099494803.3364.70.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 14:59 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > > The iBook 2001 should in theory use the sungem drivers. > > I've seen anaconda happily load the sungem driver, then fail to notice > that there's now an eth0 and demand that you specify a network driver to > load. Helpfully it notices that sungem is already loaded though, so it > removes that from the list of options :) Ack. Thats not a good sign. Better be Bugzilla'ed. However I notice anaconda now auto-detects sungem (it didn't around the FC2 days or even a little later, iirc), it won't allow me to choose airport since its already found one. Fine by me, just thought it'd be a useful option (besides, who wants to do an NFS install over wifi?) > I don't remember if there was a workaround for this; I don't think it's > been fixed. Paul? So its PPC only? I use sungem on the few ppc boxes here, seems fine -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Wed Nov 3 15:34:46 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:34:46 +0100 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on ibook2001 + B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <1099494803.3364.70.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net>; from byte@aeon.com.my on Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 02:13:22AM +1100 References: <587.1099416812@www72.gmx.net> <32655.1099473873@www33.gmx.net> <1099492603.3364.32.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> <1099493957.13633.2289.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1099494803.3364.70.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <20041103163446.B26738@ryoko.camperquake.de> On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 02:13:22AM +1100, Colin Charles wrote: > FC2 days or even a little later, iirc), it won't allow me to choose > airport since its already found one. Fine by me, just thought it'd be a > useful option (besides, who wants to do an NFS install over wifi?) Why not? I've done a network install of RH something.something for Alpha (back when there was such a thing) via a bundled ISDN line (128kB/s). No, it wasn't fun at all :) From hp at redhat.com Wed Nov 3 16:44:33 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:44:33 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 20:25 +1100, Rodd Clarkson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 00:13 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > > would gnome 2.9 be available for fc3 or fedora devel? > > GNOME uses similar versioning to the kernel. > > So 2.8 is a stable release, and 2.9 is a development release. As such, > you don't want to be using 2.9.x unless you are willing to test gnome as > it heads for a stable release 2.10 > > I'm fairly confident that 2.10 will be included in FC4 since they have > similar release schedules. Do we have an FC4 schedule yet? FC isn't necessarily 6 months, people could decide to do shorter. Havoc From arjan at fenrus.demon.nl Wed Nov 3 16:50:18 2004 From: arjan at fenrus.demon.nl (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:50:18 +0100 Subject: FC4 schedule (was Re: gnome 2.9) In-Reply-To: <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1099500618.2813.27.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 11:44 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > Do we have an FC4 schedule yet? FC isn't necessarily 6 months, people > could decide to do shorter. yeah I can see the point of doing a short cycle for FC4, once in a while it's good to do a "mostly bugfixes" release to get basic quality higher.... and another great feature to get out early will be the new GCC buffer overflow checking features. Sounds like Late January/ early February would be a nice date for a followup release.... From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Nov 3 16:55:02 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:55:02 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> > Do we have an FC4 schedule yet? FC isn't necessarily 6 months, people > could decide to do shorter. "People". Oh cmon. Y'all decide the schedule. It's not "people". -sv From jakub at redhat.com Wed Nov 3 16:58:45 2004 From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:58:45 -0500 Subject: FC4 schedule (was Re: gnome 2.9) In-Reply-To: <1099500618.2813.27.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500618.2813.27.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041103165844.GH10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 03, 2004 at 05:50:18PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 11:44 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > Do we have an FC4 schedule yet? FC isn't necessarily 6 months, people > > could decide to do shorter. > > yeah I can see the point of doing a short cycle for FC4, once in a while > it's good to do a "mostly bugfixes" release to get basic quality > higher.... > > and another great feature to get out early will be the new GCC buffer > overflow checking features. > > Sounds like Late January/ early February would be a nice date for a > followup release.... It would be good to have FC5 GCC 4.0 based though, and the schedule is unclear there. GCC 4.0 is tentatively early 2005, but I'm not that sure it will be out in mid February. Jakub From dcbw at redhat.com Wed Nov 3 17:10:26 2004 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:10:26 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <1099501826.11234.10.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 11:55 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > Do we have an FC4 schedule yet? FC isn't necessarily 6 months, people > > could decide to do shorter. > > "People". Oh cmon. Y'all decide the schedule. It's not "people". Point of having this discussion on an open list is so that people can voice their opinions and everyone can hear them. This isn't RHEL we're talking about. Dan From leonard at den.ottolander.nl Wed Nov 3 17:18:05 2004 From: leonard at den.ottolander.nl (Leonard den Ottolander) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:18:05 +0100 Subject: SPECS files In-Reply-To: <1099484240.3923.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1099484240.3923.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <1099502285.4819.149.camel@athlon.localdomain> Hello Patricio, On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 13:17, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > are the specs files availables anywhere beside the srpms packages? Sadly still not yet. I'm also still waiting for that patch/spec repository to get created. Leonard. -- mount -t life -o ro /dev/dna /genetic/research From hp at redhat.com Wed Nov 3 17:47:21 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:47:21 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <1099504041.6858.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 11:55 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > Do we have an FC4 schedule yet? FC isn't necessarily 6 months, people > > could decide to do shorter. > > "People". Oh cmon. Y'all decide the schedule. It's not "people". > *I* don't decide it, anyhow. ;-) Seriously, Red Hat has certain parameters (listed at http://fedora.redhat.com/about/objectives.html), but within those it really is flexible. Havoc From mpeters at mac.com Wed Nov 3 19:55:42 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:55:42 +0000 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> (from iago.rubio@hispalinux.es on Wed Nov 3 03:11:01 2004) References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <1099511742l.3973l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/03/2004 03:11:01 AM, Iago Rubio wrote: > > Again, I will advocate to avoid central failure points for the whole > system, just for the shake of "it will be great for newbies". > > ITOH hiveconf scares me less than the Linux Registry does. Elektra does not provide a central failure point for the system. In case you are not aware, elektra does not use a single file registry - it uses a file for each key/value pair. [mpeters at devel ~]$ ls -l /etc/kdb/system/init/ |head -5 total 80 drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Oct 23 05:27 1 drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Oct 23 05:27 2 drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Oct 23 05:27 3 drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Oct 23 05:27 4 [mpeters at devel ~]$ ls -l /etc/kdb/system/init/1/ |head -5 total 12 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 23 Oct 23 05:27 action -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 35 Oct 23 05:27 process -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 20 Oct 23 05:27 runlevels [mpeters at devel ~]$ cat /etc/kdb/system/init/1/action RG002 40 respawn This produces no more of a SPF than already exists. With respect to the library that C programs (or others) use to access data - [mpeters at devel ~]$ ldd /lib/libkdb.so libc.so.6 => /lib/tls/libc.so.6 (0x00b16000) /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x00afd000) [mpeters at devel ~]$ Very light - unless libc or the library itself being broken, you don't have a SPF there either - but if /lib gets messed up, you have to boot from alternative media anyway. And if your c library is messed up, well ... -=- I get the feeling that many people are turned off to Elektra just because they have had a bad experience with a particular implementation of a registry in an operating system that shall remain nameless. Before you just blindly reject what is a good thing, log into gnome, and launch an application called gconf-editor. There you have it - a registry in use in Linux that has been in use in Linux for quite some time quite succesfully. gconf isn't quite as robust as elektra because it uses a daemon which does present a single point of failure, but it is a registry. From lnxxprt at arcor.de Wed Nov 3 20:09:07 2004 From: lnxxprt at arcor.de (D. Stolte) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:09:07 +0100 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <1099511742l.3973l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <1099511742l.3973l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> Michael A. Peters wrote: > [mpeters at devel ~]$ ls -l /etc/kdb/system/init/1/ |head -5 > total 12 > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 23 Oct 23 05:27 action > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 35 Oct 23 05:27 process > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 20 Oct 23 05:27 runlevels > [mpeters at devel ~]$ cat /etc/kdb/system/init/1/action > RG002 > 40 > > respawn thats just cryptic nonsense. i dont want such a config system on my box. > I get the feeling that many people are turned off to Elektra just > because they have had a bad experience with a particular implementation > of a registry in an operating system that shall remain nameless. > > Before you just blindly reject what is a good thing, log into gnome, > and launch an application called gconf-editor. > > There you have it - a registry in use in Linux that has been in use in > Linux for quite some time quite succesfully. gconf isn't quite as > robust as elektra because it uses a daemon which does present a single > point of failure, but it is a registry. gconf is not much better than the m$ registry imho. to improve the management of linux i would like to see a standard for config files (FHS-like). a guide for programmers. /ds From seyman at wanadoo.fr Wed Nov 3 20:29:11 2004 From: seyman at wanadoo.fr (Emmanuel Seyman) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:29:11 +0100 Subject: 1680x1050 resolution (was: Re: FC3rc5) In-Reply-To: <7248933a041102210468c92d97@mail.gmail.com> References: <20041102172316.75c43a91.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <20041102173253.04867556.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <20041102183510.GA4889@orient.maison.moi> <7248933a041102210468c92d97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041103202911.GA4899@orient.maison.moi> On Tue, Nov 02, 2004 at 09:04:31PM -0800, David Corrigan wrote: > > can it be done by hand by editing the config file? Yes, that's the whole point. People shouldn't have to edit xorg.conf by hand. Emmanuel From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 20:31:16 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:31:16 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099504041.6858.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> <1099504041.6858.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa791041103123154691ab3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:47:21 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > Seriously, Red Hat has certain parameters (listed at > http://fedora.redhat.com/about/objectives.html), but within those it > really is flexible. it COULD be flexible, but right now there is no publicly communicable structure as to "community" leadership. The outline of project leadership on the website has never gotten past the draft document state... no one from outside red hat has any defined roles or responsibilities, nor is there anything close to a plan on how to move volunteers into and out of any roles of responsibilities when it comes to project policy and planning. Right now, afaict, its very much a centralized top-down decision process, very little is delegated or tasked out for community teams to decide. People in the community have varying degrees of input in discussion to decision making, depending on the degree of access they have to internal project leadership. Sure everyone can express their opinion as to what's going on, but there is no clear, public role for community leadership to take when it comes to "deciding", no clear role in setting the agenda or planning, no teams of hand selected volunteers tasked with even minor policy decision making within the acceptable solutionspace parameters laid down by Red Hat employees. What's going on here, isn't flexibility decision-making, this is simply an open discussion to acquire feedback that can either be acted upon or ignored, where the decision makers hear all or some of the expressed opinions and the choose a course of action. While open discussion is not a bad thing, and has its place, I think its disingenuous to suggest that community feedback means community decision-making. -jef"Look! on the side of the road a dead horse! Let's go beat it!"spaleta From alan at redhat.com Wed Nov 3 20:38:14 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:38:14 -0500 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <1099511742l.3973l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> Message-ID: <20041103203814.GC30692@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 03, 2004 at 09:09:07PM +0100, D. Stolte wrote: > gconf is not much better than the m$ registry imho. gconf has several advantages in its design like the ability to use arbitary back ends (see the mbox demo for lunacy value) and good notifier handling for dynamic change. It too had the one file per key design bug but that has gone away > to improve the management of linux i would like to see a standard for > config files (FHS-like). a guide for programmers. Alan From mpeters at mac.com Wed Nov 3 22:11:20 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:11:20 +0000 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> (from lnxxprt@arcor.de on Wed Nov 3 12:09:07 2004) References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <1099511742l.3973l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> Message-ID: <1099519880l.3973l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/03/2004 12:09:07 PM, D. Stolte wrote: > Michael A. Peters wrote: >> [mpeters at devel ~]$ ls -l /etc/kdb/system/init/1/ |head -5 >> total 12 >> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 23 Oct 23 05:27 action >> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 35 Oct 23 05:27 process >> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 20 Oct 23 05:27 runlevels >> [mpeters at devel ~]$ cat /etc/kdb/system/init/1/action >> RG002 >> 40 >> >> respawn > thats just cryptic nonsense. i dont want such a config system on > my box. That's not cryptic nonsense - that was just demonstration of the layout. [mpeters at devel ~]$ kdb ls system/sw/yum/current system/sw/yum/current/base system/sw/yum/current/development system/sw/yum/current/main system/sw/yum/current/updates-released system/sw/yum/current/updates-testing [mpeters at devel ~]$ kdb get system/sw/yum/current/base/baseurl http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/$releasever/$basearch/os/ Normally to view the value of a key - you use the kdb command and request the key - and it returns the value. No more criptic than grepping a text file, and easier in the case of yum because you can specify exactly which value you want (in this case baseurl associated with the base repo) In reality, as is the case with gconf, most of the time a gui would do it for you - either in the application itself, or through a tool like gconf-editor. There is a qt tool for elektra now, and I suspect a generic gtk2 tool would be trivial to write (python). Since a registry provides a standard API for writing/reading configuration data, configuration utilities become almost micky mouse to write - you don't have to learn the rules of all the different configuration types (# for comment, or // for comment, or tab deliminated key value pairs, or an xml scheme, or whatever). From mpeters at mac.com Wed Nov 3 22:15:03 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:15:03 +0000 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <20041103203814.GC30692@devserv.devel.redhat.com> (from alan@redhat.com on Wed Nov 3 12:38:14 2004) References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <1099511742l.3973l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> <20041103203814.GC30692@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1099520103l.3973l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/03/2004 12:38:14 PM, Alan Cox wrote: > It too had the one file per key design > bug but > that has gone away I personally would prefer a binary database with Elektra combined with a human editable xml backup - I think that would be faster than the single file per key model. But that's a performance change that could be made to Elektra in the future without needing to modify how apps are written, assuming apps use the elektra library and are ignorant to what happens behind that. From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 22:22:13 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:22:13 -0500 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <1099519880l.3973l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <1099511742l.3973l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> <1099519880l.3973l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <604aa79104110314221dda18da@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:11:20 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > Since a registry provides a standard API for writing/reading > configuration data, configuration utilities become almost micky mouse > to write - you don't have to learn the rules of all the different > configuration types (# for comment, or // for comment, or tab > deliminated key value pairs, or an xml scheme, or whatever). I'm still not sure why this discussion is going on here...at the distribution level. Individual major projects will have to buy into this to be useful. The distribution maintainers is not going to be able to dictate to individual projects how to craft configuration schemes. Are there on going discussions upstream inside major component projects like xorg or apache about this approach? If this isn't being discussed seriously by large projects developers with large obnoxious configuration files, I don't see the point in discussing this as part of ongoing general Fedora development discussion. If you expect Fedora to provide an Electra based configuration for something like xorg in Core, without upstream xorg buying into it...you're nuts. -jef"9 out of 10 helen's agree.. nothing beats a good pair of shoes"spaleta From mpeters at mac.com Wed Nov 3 23:00:48 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 23:00:48 +0000 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <604aa79104110314221dda18da@mail.gmail.com> (from jspaleta@gmail.com on Wed Nov 3 14:22:13 2004) References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <1099511742l.3973l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> <1099519880l.3973l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> <604aa79104110314221dda18da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1099522848l.3973l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/03/2004 02:22:13 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > I'm still not sure why this discussion is going on here...at the > distribution level. > Individual major projects will have to buy into this to be useful. > The > distribution maintainers is not going to be able to dictate to > individual projects how to craft configuration schemes. Are there on > going discussions upstream inside major component projects like xorg > or apache about this approach? The developer of Elektra will soon be releasing a patch to x.org that will create the elektra database from the conf file if it doesn't exist. Right now he's collecting different x.org conf files in order to test it, then he'll release the patch to the elektra list, then after testing it will eventually get submitted to x.org I think his patch to init has already been submitted to x.org and either has been approved or is awaiting approval - with init, applying the patch doesn't build an elektrified init unless you specify that's what you want, and I suspect that will be the norm for most packages - so that elektra isn't forced on any distribution, but becomes an option. In that respect, the fedora devel list is a good place to discuss it - because fedora will need to choose wether or not it wants to use elektrified builds of the apps. Also - some fedora specific stuff needs to be elektrified, such as the init scripts (I'm sort of working on the network init script now - which will completely alleviate the need for /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts) and of course, kudzu and the sysconfig-blah python scripts would need to be ported. So some discussion I think is healthy on this list, though maybe it is a bit premature, since there isn't (imho) critical mass yet of elektrified applications to make switching worth it. From smooge at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 23:06:33 2004 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen J. Smoogen) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:06:33 -0700 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <604aa791041103123154691ab3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> <1099504041.6858.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791041103123154691ab3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e40904110315064c0b771e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:31:16 -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > What's going on here, isn't flexibility decision-making, this is > simply an open discussion to acquire feedback that can either be acted > upon or ignored, where the decision makers hear all or some of the > expressed opinions and the choose a course of action. While open > discussion is not a bad thing, and has its place, I think its > disingenuous to suggest that community feedback means community > decision-making. > > > -jef"Look! on the side of the road a dead horse! Let's go beat it!"spaleta > > > As much as I like Red Hat, and know what its like on the inside... (or knew).. I have to use a Mr Szuliks phrase: "Amen Brother". This has got to stop. I would rather see FC4 get put off for 6 months and the real issues of community building fixed by February than just watch this poor dead horse get covered in napalm and savaged by people again. > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > -- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator From remco at rvt.com Wed Nov 3 23:56:27 2004 From: remco at rvt.com (Remco Treffkorn) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:56:27 -0800 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> On Wednesday 03 November 2004 03:11, Iago Rubio wrote: ... > > Again, I will advocate to avoid central failure points for the whole > system, just for the shake of "it will be great for newbies". > > ITOH hiveconf scares me less than the Linux Registry does. With all due respect, but this smacks like you have not even read the info about Elektra. Would you care to explain how Elektra is a "central failure point"? Remco -- Remco Treffkorn (RT445) HAM DC2XT remco at rvt.com (831) 685-1201 From remco at rvt.com Thu Nov 4 00:02:38 2004 From: remco at rvt.com (Remco Treffkorn) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:02:38 -0800 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> References: <1099511742l.3973l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> Message-ID: <200411031602.39070.remco@rvt.com> On Wednesday 03 November 2004 12:09, D. Stolte wrote: > Michael A. Peters wrote: > > [mpeters at devel ~]$ ls -l /etc/kdb/system/init/1/ |head -5 > > total 12 > > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 23 Oct 23 05:27 action > > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 35 Oct 23 05:27 process > > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 20 Oct 23 05:27 runlevels > > [mpeters at devel ~]$ cat /etc/kdb/system/init/1/action > > RG002 > > 40 > > > > respawn > > thats just cryptic nonsense. i dont want such a config system on > my box. ROTFLMAO Now I can go home after a s****y day with a smile on my face. -- Remco Treffkorn (RT445) HAM DC2XT remco at rvt.com (831) 685-1201 From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 00:17:17 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:17:17 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <80d7e40904110315064c0b771e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> <1099504041.6858.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791041103123154691ab3@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e40904110315064c0b771e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79104110316172cf7848e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:06:33 -0700, Stephen J. Smoogen wrote: > As much as I like Red Hat, and know what its like on the inside... (or > knew).. I have to use a Mr Szuliks phrase: "Amen Brother". This has > got to stop. I would rather see FC4 get put off for 6 months and the > real issues of community building fixed by February than just watch > this poor dead horse get covered in napalm and savaged by people > again. +1 If this is am open discussion about the FC4 schedule. I would personally prefer to see a SLOW release cycle so the non-technical issues, the community facing policy/organizational issues can finally get some needed high priority allocation from inside the fenceline. In terms of what is important in the long term health of fedora as a community project and not just a collection of code.. time needs to be made by the primaries inside Red Hat to deal the issues of how community is actually going to be invited and encouraged to be invovled beyond upstream component developers. Pushing a quick fc4 schedule is NOT going to make it easier to deal with any community contributor/leadership issues... real or imagined, outstanding or looming. As much as i appreciate and respect the fact that a lot of work has needed to be done inhouse to open up the technical tools for community contributors to get access to code and buildsystem. Having the technical tools like an open cvs are not going to help deal with the issue on how to manage and recruit volunteers with less overtly codemonkey tasks. It's debatable when the best time to strongly press the point, before or after the technical work to open up the buildsystem is completed. So I offer this as a friendly reminder and as a kindly display of loyal opposition to the current red hat internal priorities for the fedora project. There needs to be a schedule and a plan to deal with volunteer management issues. -jef"is getting too comfortable playing the role of loyal opposition in so many different venues"spaleta From hp at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 01:13:16 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:13:16 -0500 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1099530796.6858.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, Here is a post of mine from a past thread: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gconf-list/2004-April/msg00024.html And what I would consider wrong with gconf: http://www.gnome.org/projects/gconf/plans.html Like all "grand unification scheme" efforts, without consulting and listening to the major customers, success is unlikely. e.g. when Keith P succeeded with fontconfig, he talked to and then contributed patches to GTK, Mozilla, Qt, etc. I would avoid lumping system config with per-user config. They are in some ways the same and in some ways very different. For per-user config one set of issues is around group policy, directory services, and that kind of sysadmin-creates-user-profiles issue; the other set of issues has to do with how the desktop is implemented and what UI we want, for example you need change notification. For system config the real issues of interest IMO are the overall management tools; things like cfengine, lcfg, oneSIS, or RHN. Another useful conceptual difference is between setting up a service/workload and associated data (e.g. configure apache, or stressing the analogy you could say that a user login session is a workload) and makework config such as telling the machine how to find its hardware (modprobe.conf type of stuff). The latter can/should be all automatic in an ideal world, though in a real world it can't be fully so. You might think of the makework config as adjusting all machines to be the same, and the service config as defining a service that can then run on any of the identical machines. User and system config can conceivably be addressed in the same library, as they share some core features, but I'm not convinced it has genuine value to keep them together. Anyway. This is certainly an area where work is useful, but I think it's a long road that involves both listening and coding in order to get wide adoption. Havoc From hp at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 01:22:43 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:22:43 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <604aa79104110316172cf7848e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> <1099504041.6858.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791041103123154691ab3@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e40904110315064c0b771e@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79104110316172cf7848e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1099531363.6858.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 19:17 -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > As much as i appreciate and respect the fact that a lot of work has > needed to be done inhouse to open up the technical tools for community > contributors to get access to code and buildsystem. Having the > technical tools like an open cvs are not going to help deal with the > issue on how to manage and recruit volunteers with less overtly > codemonkey tasks. It's debatable when the best time to strongly press > the point, before or after the technical work to open up the > buildsystem is completed. So I offer this as a friendly reminder and > as a kindly display of loyal opposition to the current red hat > internal priorities for the fedora project. There needs to be a > schedule and a plan to deal with volunteer management issues. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but one thing I would argue is that opening up the technical tools is absolutely central. To me a key question is "can you have an external package maintainer?" (and parallel questions like "can you have external translators," etc.) Because the governance and decision making should be based on maintainers/contributors, and that means there's no outside decision making until you have a way for outsiders to be maintainers and contributors. Of course people are contributing today, but there are certain limits on what they can do from outside Red Hat. It's not like most open source projects have any formal decision making policy. It's really rough consensus of the core contributors. Only my personal opinion, and I probably haven't heard many of the discussions around this topic. Havoc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Nov 4 01:33:54 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:33:54 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099531363.6858.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> <1099504041.6858.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791041103123154691ab3@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e40904110315064c0b771e@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79104110316172cf7848e@mail.gmail.com> <1099531363.6858.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1099532034.3554.11.camel@binkley> > I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but one thing I would argue is > that opening up the technical tools is absolutely central. > > To me a key question is "can you have an external package maintainer?" > (and parallel questions like "can you have external translators," etc.) > > Because the governance and decision making should be based on > maintainers/contributors, and that means there's no outside decision > making until you have a way for outsiders to be maintainers and > contributors. Of course people are contributing today, but there are > certain limits on what they can do from outside Red Hat. > > It's not like most open source projects have any formal decision making > policy. It's really rough consensus of the core contributors. I know this is not the most functional example - but big projects like distributions and other large projects do have some established hierarchy - and sometimes they have a process for making those decisions. -sv From hp at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 01:48:51 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:48:51 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099532034.3554.11.camel@binkley> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> <1099504041.6858.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791041103123154691ab3@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e40904110315064c0b771e@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79104110316172cf7848e@mail.gmail.com> <1099531363.6858.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099532034.3554.11.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <1099532931.6858.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 20:33 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > I know this is not the most functional example - but big projects like > distributions and other large projects do have some established > hierarchy - and sometimes they have a process for making those > decisions. Yeah. I'm a little reluctant to get into which projects I think have good structures and which ones I think suck, since I have this fear of ending up on Slashdot or something ;-) plus I may just be ignorant of many of them. I do think we need some structure, don't get me wrong. And I'd like to see it defined. I was also sufficiently involved in defining the GNOME structure to know whether or not I have time to be in charge of defining this one ;-) At the same time I think structure is partly overrated, it does come down to the individual people and how they get along. If you're taking a lot of votes it's a bad sign... Havoc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Nov 4 03:13:44 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:13:44 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099532931.6858.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> <1099504041.6858.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791041103123154691ab3@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e40904110315064c0b771e@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79104110316172cf7848e@mail.gmail.com> <1099531363.6858.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099532034.3554.11.camel@binkley> <1099532931.6858.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1099538025.3554.25.camel@binkley> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 20:48 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 20:33 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > > > I know this is not the most functional example - but big projects like > > distributions and other large projects do have some established > > hierarchy - and sometimes they have a process for making those > > decisions. > > Yeah. I'm a little reluctant to get into which projects I think have > good structures and which ones I think suck, since I have this fear of > ending up on Slashdot or something ;-) plus I may just be ignorant of > many of them. I don't want to discuss what projects have good structures either. I think it is more valuable to discuss this projects structure :) > I do think we need some structure, don't get me wrong. And I'd like to > see it defined. I was also sufficiently involved in defining the GNOME > structure to know whether or not I have time to be in charge of defining > this one ;-) So where do we go? How do we make aspects of the structure more transparent - even one-way glass so users can see in would be okay. > At the same time I think structure is partly overrated, it does come > down to the individual people and how they get along. If you're taking a > lot of votes it's a bad sign... I agree. too much voting is silly, but maybe hearing more from the steering and technical committee that already exist is not silly. what do you think? -sv From alan at balclutha.org Thu Nov 4 03:38:15 2004 From: alan at balclutha.org (Alan Milligan) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:38:15 +1100 Subject: gnome 2.9 Message-ID: <4189A427.6070108@balclutha.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 | | If this is am open discussion about the FC4 schedule. I would | personally prefer to see a SLOW release cycle so the non-technical | issues, the community facing policy/organizational issues can finally | get some needed high priority allocation from inside the fenceline. | Definitely. There is much that needs to be formalised here. I for one am very disappointed that I have zero control pushing my own agenda within Fedora. I have four outstanding bugs and enhancements with patches (135657, 135659, 135660, 120635) which are completely at the whim RH as to when they may apply them, if ever. | In terms of what is important in the long term health of fedora as a | community project and not just a collection of code.. time needs to be | made by the primaries inside Red Hat to deal the issues of how | community is actually going to be invited and encouraged to be | invovled beyond upstream component developers. Pushing a quick fc4 | schedule is NOT going to make it easier to deal with any community | contributor/leadership issues... real or imagined, outstanding or | looming. | Indeed. A quick push just means there's even less time to lobby for changes that have already been deferred because you were all too busy getting out FC3. We already see that existing RH resources are struggling to be reactive to the situation. If you cannot open this project up along the lines of other large open projects, whereby I can influence the final product, then I will seriously consider participating elsewhere. Alan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBiaQnCfroLk4EZpkRAkDVAJ4uhkh8jg0kfvuliTqX6A9PPe29fgCfa1rA Eb3F0X9XG5vfgSxf6UrzAgI= =/RIv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From hp at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 04:02:30 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 23:02:30 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099538025.3554.25.camel@binkley> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> <1099504041.6858.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791041103123154691ab3@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e40904110315064c0b771e@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79104110316172cf7848e@mail.gmail.com> <1099531363.6858.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099532034.3554.11.camel@binkley> <1099532931.6858.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099538025.3554.25.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <1099540950.9439.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 22:13 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > I agree. too much voting is silly, but maybe hearing more from the > steering and technical committee that already exist is not silly. > > what do you think? Well yes, as you know my personal bias is toward writing a lot of email/blogs/etc. ... ;-) Havoc From hp at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 04:20:40 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 23:20:40 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <4189A427.6070108@balclutha.org> References: <4189A427.6070108@balclutha.org> Message-ID: <1099542041.9439.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 14:38 +1100, Alan Milligan wrote: > I for one am very disappointed that I have zero control pushing my own > agenda within Fedora. I have four outstanding bugs and enhancements > with patches (135657, 135659, 135660, 120635) which are completely at > the whim RH as to when they may apply them, if ever. Those patches are only two weeks old - given that there's no release for at least a few months, I wouldn't be concerned that they aren't applied. It's not at the whim of Red Hat, btw. It's up to Mihai, Adrian, and Jeff, who no doubt appreciate the help. There's a bugzilla upgrade in the works which will add the "patch" flag as with gnome.org bugzilla, then we can query for all bugs with unapplied patches and track that, which will be useful. With externally-maintained packages, whether to apply a patch will be at the whim of the external package owner. At least I would expect there's never going to be any process for patches other than maintainer review. That's afaik how GNOME or Debian or the kernel works. > Indeed. A quick push just means there's even less time to lobby for > changes that have already been deferred because you were all too busy > getting out FC3. I bet if you charted bugzilla, more fixes and patches go in during the bustle of getting the release out, toward the end of the process. At the beginning of a release people tend to ignore bugzilla and work on coding new stuff. If you aren't familiar with the time based release process, here is a still-fairly-accurate summary of how GNOME works: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-hackers/2002-June/msg00041.html The GNOME process was modeled after the Red Hat Linux process in large part, so it isn't surprising that it's also used by Fedora. Havoc From mpeters at mac.com Thu Nov 4 04:33:56 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 04:33:56 +0000 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <1099522848l.3973l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> (from mpeters@mac.com on Wed Nov 3 15:00:48 2004) References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <1099511742l.3973l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> <1099519880l.3973l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> <604aa79104110314221dda18da@mail.gmail.com> <1099522848l.3973l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1099542836l.3973l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/03/2004 03:00:48 PM, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > I think his patch to init has already been submitted to x.org That was a typo - a patch to init would not go to x.org for obvious reasons ... From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Nov 4 05:29:23 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 00:29:23 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099540950.9439.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500902.4137.0.camel@binkley> <1099504041.6858.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791041103123154691ab3@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e40904110315064c0b771e@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79104110316172cf7848e@mail.gmail.com> <1099531363.6858.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099532034.3554.11.camel@binkley> <1099532931.6858.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099538025.3554.25.camel@binkley> <1099540950.9439.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1099546163.3554.27.camel@binkley> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 23:02 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 22:13 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > > > I agree. too much voting is silly, but maybe hearing more from the > > steering and technical committee that already exist is not silly. > > > > what do you think? > > Well yes, as you know my personal bias is toward writing a lot of > email/blogs/etc. ... ;-) Do you think you can get the other people on the various committees to talk a bit more? :) -sv From mpeters at mac.com Thu Nov 4 06:51:51 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:51:51 +0000 Subject: ogg streams and rhythmbox Message-ID: <1099551111l.3973l.6l@devel.mpeters.us> Rhythmbox from upstream works well with mp3 shoutcast streams, which are removed from Fedora Core due to mp3 support not being there. Apparantly CBC will be streaming with ogg - and I'm curious as to how popular ogg streaming is, and wether or not some default internet radio stations using ogg through shoutcast should be used for Rhythmbox - are there enough to make it worth it? I know shoutcast2 builds fine on FC2 and FC3 and the gstreamer plugin also does - I don't know that they are required for ogg streaming in rhythmbox (they don't seam to be for mp3 streaming) but if they are, they work and should be patent free. Do ogg shoutcast streams work in Rhythmbox as it is? I think it is worth investigating just so that rhythmbox could be distributed with Fedora Core 4 with working internet radio stations. From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Thu Nov 4 09:11:14 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:11:14 +0100 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> Message-ID: <1099559473.5922.39.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 00:56, Remco Treffkorn wrote: > On Wednesday 03 November 2004 03:11, Iago Rubio wrote: > ... > > > > Again, I will advocate to avoid central failure points for the whole > > system, just for the shake of "it will be great for newbies". > > > > ITOH hiveconf scares me less than the Linux Registry does. > > With all due respect, but this smacks like you have not even read the info > about Elektra. I did, it's not the frist time it arrived this list. I was not speking about Elektra as a single failure point but about hiveconf. > Would you care to explain how Elektra is a "central failure point"? You sniped my message taking out the line I was answering. Read it and you'll see I was speaking about hiveconf. I'll not explain what I did not even said. ITOH as you ask me to explain my thoughts, hiveconf scares me less because it uses application's configuration files and will not drive anybody to use a fixed configuration scheme, and a fixed configuration files' layout on disk. It also scares me, because it's a central failure point for the whole system. About Elektra, I don't know how will it fit in chrooted environments. But technical matters apart, Elektra could be a good idea but I don't spect rapid doption by upstream developers, and maintenance of all config packages elektrified will require a huge patching effort. Sysadmins will not be happy to change their sendmail configuration files that have been around for years. So to get a chance for adoption, you should also code the conversion of old config files to elektra - a "hiveconf" layer between old configs and elektra. Once you get this done and you get elektra adopted by upstream developers of important packages, it's time to advocate for the inclusion in a distro. Right now, I don't think redhat folks have time to expend in the enourmous task of elektrify - and maintain elektrified - the whole fedora, even if they'd think it's the best idea in years. It should be adopted by upstream developers. -- Iago Rubio From pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt Thu Nov 4 09:28:14 2004 From: pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt (Pedro Morais) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:28:14 +0000 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099531363.6858.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <604aa79104110316172cf7848e@mail.gmail.com> <1099531363.6858.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200411040928.14652.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Em Quinta, 4 de Novembro de 2004 01:22, Havoc Pennington escreveu: > To me a key question is "can you have an external package maintainer?" > (and parallel questions like "can you have external translators," etc.) Oh, but you do have external translators. I've (and a lot of other people) had access to a CVS server to commit translations since before the Fedora days. Morais From rmy at tigress.co.uk Thu Nov 4 09:40:42 2004 From: rmy at tigress.co.uk (Ron Yorston) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:40:42 GMT Subject: FC4 schedule (was Re: gnome 2.9) Message-ID: <200411040940.JAA22400@internal.tigress.co.uk> Arjan van de Ven wrote: >On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 11:44 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: >> Do we have an FC4 schedule yet? FC isn't necessarily 6 months, people >> could decide to do shorter. > >yeah I can see the point of doing a short cycle for FC4, once in a while >it's good to do a "mostly bugfixes" release to get basic quality >higher.... > >and another great feature to get out early will be the new GCC buffer >overflow checking features. > >Sounds like Late January/ early February would be a nice date for a >followup release.... Especially if you want people to skip FC3. Why bother with it when there'll be another, better one along in a moment? Ron From heretic at ihug.co.nz Thu Nov 4 09:58:39 2004 From: heretic at ihug.co.nz (David Mohring) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 22:58:39 +1300 Subject: ogg streams and rhythmbox In-Reply-To: <1099551111l.3973l.6l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1099551111l.3973l.6l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1099562320.18363.1.camel@heretic.grobb.org> On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 06:51 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > Rhythmbox from upstream works well with mp3 shoutcast streams, which > are removed from Fedora Core due to mp3 support not being there. > > Apparantly CBC will be streaming with ogg - and I'm curious as to how > popular ogg streaming is, and wether or not some default internet radio > stations using ogg through shoutcast should be used for Rhythmbox - are > there enough to make it worth it? > > I know shoutcast2 builds fine on FC2 and FC3 and the gstreamer plugin > also does - I don't know that they are required for ogg streaming in > rhythmbox (they don't seam to be for mp3 streaming) but if they are, > they work and should be patent free. > See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=136268 > Do ogg shoutcast streams work in Rhythmbox as it is? > I think it is worth investigating just so that rhythmbox could be > distributed with Fedora Core 4 with working internet radio stations. > > -- David Mohring From avibrazil at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 11:14:59 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:14:59 -0300 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <20041103203814.GC30692@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <1099511742l.3973l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <41893AE3.6040604@arcor.de> <20041103203814.GC30692@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:38:14 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Wed, Nov 03, 2004 at 09:09:07PM +0100, D. Stolte wrote: > > gconf is not much better than the m$ registry imho. > > gconf has several advantages in its design like the ability to use > arbitary back ends (see the mbox demo for lunacy value) and good notifier > handling for dynamic change. It too had the one file per key design bug but > that has gone away Elektra also has key and keys change notification with kdbMonitorKey() and kdbMonitorKeys(), and can have multiple back ends. See http://elektra.sourceforge.net/elektra-api/html/group__kdb.html Elektra focus is on the API design and unified namespace. The one-file-per-key is a current implementation and makes single key writes way easyer to implement. It also leverages the hirarchical organization, and security model the filesystem already provides you. It has issues also, but as Michael said, it can be improved in the future without affecting applications source, etc. From alan at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 12:23:06 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:23:06 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <4189A427.6070108@balclutha.org> References: <4189A427.6070108@balclutha.org> Message-ID: <20041104122306.GE7830@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 02:38:15PM +1100, Alan Milligan wrote: > I for one am very disappointed that I have zero control pushing my own > agenda within Fedora. I have four outstanding bugs and enhancements > with patches (135657, 135659, 135660, 120635) which are completely at > the whim RH as to when they may apply them, if ever. I work for the company and I can't get up2date bugs fixed, so don't think its a magical cure 8( From alan at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 12:27:55 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:27:55 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <200411040928.14652.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <604aa79104110316172cf7848e@mail.gmail.com> <1099531363.6858.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200411040928.14652.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Message-ID: <20041104122755.GH7830@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 09:28:14AM +0000, Pedro Morais wrote: > Oh, but you do have external translators. I've (and a lot of other people) had > access to a CVS server to commit translations since before the Fedora days. But only to commit translations. There lies a big difference. From buildsys at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 12:48:10 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:48:10 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041104 changes Message-ID: <200411041248.iA4CmAL14494@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: gtk2-2.4.13-9 ------------- * Wed Nov 03 2004 Matthias Clasen - 2.4.13-9 - Fix an oversight in the previous fix, really fix the crash. (#137922) rpmdb-fedora-3-0.20041104 ------------------------- setarch-1.6-1 ------------- * Wed Nov 03 2004 Elliot Lee 1.6-1 - More properly interpret the return value of SYS_personality udev-039-8.FC3 -------------- * Wed Nov 03 2004 Jeremy Katz - 039-8.FC3 - recreate lvm device nodes if needed in the trigger (#137807) * Wed Nov 03 2004 Harald Hoyer - 039-6.FC3.2 - replace udev.conf by default - LANG=C for fgrep in start_udev; turn grep into fgrep From harald at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 14:32:28 2004 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:32:28 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041104 changes In-Reply-To: <200411041248.iA4CmAL14494@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411041248.iA4CmAL14494@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <418A3D7C.6070208@redhat.com> Build System wrote: > udev-039-8.FC3 > -------------- > * Wed Nov 03 2004 Jeremy Katz - 039-8.FC3 > > - recreate lvm device nodes if needed in the trigger (#137807) > > * Wed Nov 03 2004 Harald Hoyer - 039-6.FC3.2 > > - replace udev.conf by default > - LANG=C for fgrep in start_udev; turn grep into fgrep > before everyone who updated udev is missing her/his /dev/cdrom, use this until rawhide is updated: http://people.redhat.com/harald/udev-039-10.FC3.1.i386.rpm http://people.redhat.com/harald/udev-039-10.FC3.1.src.rpm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mcwimpy at gmx.at Thu Nov 4 14:45:02 2004 From: mcwimpy at gmx.at (Markus Nicolussi) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:45:02 +0100 (MET) Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on B&W PowerMacG3 References: <20041103163446.B26738@ryoko.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <18758.1099579502@www4.gmx.net> > On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 02:13:22AM +1100, Colin Charles wrote: > > (besides, who wants to do an NFS install over wifi?) what's wifi? > On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 14:59 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > > I've seen anaconda happily load the sungem driver, then fail to notice > that there's now an eth0 and demand that you specify a network driver to > load. Helpfully it notices that sungem is already loaded though, so it > removes that from the list of options :) That's what happens to me if i try to install on the PowerMacG3 (350MHz), but with the bmac driver. alt Alt+F4 it says: <7> divert: allocating divert_blk for eth0 <6> eth0: BMAC+ at 00:05:02:61:a3:51 so i guess anaconda could load the driver. but it doesn't go further then. It just keeps me asking to select a driver... Until now i just tried to install on the PowerMac. It's more important than the ibook. but if i trie the ibook i will let u know what happened. now i am experimenting with to burn the FC3 devel tree to a DVD and select "CD-ROM" as installation mode... ciao, nico. -- Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail + 3 Top-Spielfilme auf DVD ++ Jetzt kostenlos testen http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail ++ From hp at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 15:11:05 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:11:05 -0500 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <200411040928.14652.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <604aa79104110316172cf7848e@mail.gmail.com> <1099531363.6858.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200411040928.14652.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Message-ID: <1099581065.9439.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 09:28 +0000, Pedro Morais wrote: > Em Quinta, 4 de Novembro de 2004 01:22, Havoc Pennington escreveu: > > To me a key question is "can you have an external package maintainer?" > > (and parallel questions like "can you have external translators," etc.) > > Oh, but you do have external translators. I've (and a lot of other people) had > access to a CVS server to commit translations since before the Fedora days. > I know, I was trying to include a question with a positive answer ;-) Havoc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Nov 4 15:10:06 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:10:06 -0500 Subject: .649 and .667 kernels and random lockups Message-ID: <1099581006.12431.3.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Hi Everyone, I've upgraded two machines to fc3rc5(ish) and then upgraded again to latest rawhide. I've been running the .649 and .667 kernels on these two systems. One is a dell dimension 2400 - p4 2.8ghz the other is an ibm x23 thinkpad - p3-866mhz. Both of them will lockup if they sit idle for a while. It's a hard lock up, I can't free them of it and I have no idea what causes it. Is anyone else seeing this, too? Thanks -sv From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Thu Nov 4 15:15:29 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:15:29 +0100 Subject: .649 and .667 kernels and random lockups In-Reply-To: <1099581006.12431.3.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu>; from skvidal@phy.duke.edu on Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 10:10:06AM -0500 References: <1099581006.12431.3.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <20041104161529.A6250@ryoko.camperquake.de> On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 10:10:06AM -0500, seth vidal wrote: > a while. It's a hard lock up, I can't free them of it and I have no idea > what causes it. Is anyone else seeing this, too? No problems with both that are not already in bugzilla (no lockups). 1200MHz Duron, no ACPI From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Thu Nov 4 15:29:49 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:29:49 +0100 Subject: .649 and .667 kernels and random lockups In-Reply-To: <1099581006.12431.3.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1099581006.12431.3.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <20041104162949.72b4f5e2.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> seth vidal wrote : > Hi Everyone, > I've upgraded two machines to fc3rc5(ish) and then upgraded again to > latest rawhide. I've been running the .649 and .667 kernels on these two > systems. One is a dell dimension 2400 - p4 2.8ghz the other is an ibm > x23 thinkpad - p3-866mhz. Both of them will lockup if they sit idle for > a while. It's a hard lock up, I can't free them of it and I have no idea > what causes it. Is anyone else seeing this, too? The only lockups I see with .649 are sometimes when coming out of S3, and most of the time a few seconds after "umount -f"'ing nfs mounts (that I often forget to umount before going into S3 and changing location/network :-/). I've left my laptop (Dell Inspiron 8600) idle every night since Monday without a hitch. Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.649.radeon Load : 0.57 0.61 0.82 From bpm at ec-group.com Thu Nov 4 15:36:02 2004 From: bpm at ec-group.com (Brian Millett) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:36:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: .649 and .667 kernels and random lockups In-Reply-To: <1099581006.12431.3.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1099581006.12431.3.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <15347.12.41.112.51.1099582562.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> > Hi Everyone, > I've upgraded two machines to fc3rc5(ish) and then upgraded again to > latest rawhide. I've been running the .649 and .667 kernels on these two > systems. One is a dell dimension 2400 - p4 2.8ghz the other is an ibm > x23 thinkpad - p3-866mhz. Both of them will lockup if they sit idle for > a while. It's a hard lock up, I can't free them of it and I have no idea > what causes it. Is anyone else seeing this, too? Seth, I have. I have a toshiba 1135-S155 laptop running rawhide. I've noticed that several times as I am composing an email in evolution or once in openoffice, the system will freeze. The disk light is solid. If I am quick, I can get to a virtual terminal as X is locked. The top process is kswapd0. It happens randomly. I have not been able to determine if this happens only when RAM is getting full, or if VM is getting full. I can get it to stop ONLY when I am in the vertual term and I wait for kswapd0 to stop. Then I can go back to X and work. I have no idea what the underlying problem is. I first thought it was OO and fonts because the problem went away when I changed all of the fonts in teh document to be the same. But then it has happened in evolution, so I do not know any more. -- Brian Millett Enterprise Consulting Group "Shifts in paradigms (314) 205-9030 often cause nose bleeds." bpmATec-groupDOTcom Greg Glenn From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Thu Nov 4 15:47:47 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:47:47 +0100 Subject: Does anyone else experience occasionnal xfs crashes? Message-ID: <20041104164747.27d5835d.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Hi, For a few months now, I've been experiencing random xfs (the font server, not the filesystem ;-)) crashes on my laptop running FC Dev. As it was a system installed with FC back in January, which had run a binary distribution of XFree86 4.4RC (because the Radeon Mobility 9600 is not supported by 4.3), then upgraded to FC2, FC Dev and had plenty of custom fonts here and there, I didn't bother much to look for the problem. But I reinstalled FC3RC5 cleanly (complete format) Monday, and saw xfs crash on the same day, even before having installed a single 3rd party package or font! The symptoms are quite nasty : If it happens when xscreensaver is running and locks the display, then the login dialog simply never shows up and it gives the impression that the computer is frozen, since even Alt+Ctrl+F1 takes a long time before actually switching to the console! If it's during "normal" operation, then firefox often disappears, focus between windows doesn't work anymore (actually, it almost does, but keyboard/mouse input stops working sometimes, it can come back after "Alt+Tab"... weird), and new applications _all_ fail to start. Seth, could this be what you're seeing? Computer is still reachable by the network, though, so probably not. Even restarting xfs doesn't cure the running X... X needs to be completely restarted before things start working normally again. Right now, I'm running with "ulimit -c unlimited; xfs -nodaemon" on my first console... but xfs still hasn't crashed again, so I'm still waiting before I can expect being able to make a useful bug report. Still, I was wondering, does anyone else suffer from the symptoms above? I found zarroo bugs about xfs crashing in FC, so I'm a bit puzzled. If you think you have this problem, just "service xfs status" and you'll know for sure. Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.649.radeon Load : 1.14 0.78 0.80 From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Nov 4 16:06:58 2004 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:06:58 -0800 Subject: FC4 schedule (was Re: gnome 2.9) In-Reply-To: <200411040940.JAA22400@internal.tigress.co.uk> References: <200411040940.JAA22400@internal.tigress.co.uk> Message-ID: <200411040807.02909.jkeating@j2solutions.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 04 November 2004 01:40, Ron Yorston wrote: > Especially if you want people to skip FC3. ?Why bother with it when > there'll be another, better one along in a moment? This leads to the mindset of 'Why fix it if we have another one coming out in a moment', which screws those of us that are forced to continue on because customers want the latest and greatest. - -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBilOl4v2HLvE71NURAtgTAJwIHqtRMwyI64U+BafFbASBLEzZlACgjx0B ZPq7JRAPGSleK+Ts8y1+asc= =NZNh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From avibrazil at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 16:08:59 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:08:59 -0300 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <1099559473.5922.39.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> <1099559473.5922.39.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:11:14 +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > ITOH as you ask me to explain my thoughts, hiveconf scares me less > because it uses application's configuration files and will not drive > anybody to use a fixed configuration scheme, and a fixed configuration > files' layout on disk. > > It also scares me, because it's a central failure point for the whole > system. I don't know much about Hiveconf. I only know it is made in Python or Ruby.... Anyway, being a library and not a service, again, Elektra is not a SPoF. By design. The namespace is unified, but not the underlying storage. On purpose. > About Elektra, I don't know how will it fit in chrooted environments. You'll have a separate tree of keys under $(chroot)/etc/kdb/ or $(chroot)/~user/.kdb/ for your in-jail program. You can also use SELinux with Elektra for improved security. > But technical matters apart, Elektra could be a good idea but I don't > spect rapid doption by upstream developers, and maintenance of all > config packages elektrified will require a huge patching effort. Being realistic, me neither. I agree. > Sysadmins will not be happy to change their sendmail configuration files > that have been around for years. /etc/sendmail.cf is not a configuration file. It is a full program :-). A very special case. But I got your point. A switch will not happen from one day to another. It is a paradigm shift, and it takes time. But IMHO, I can't handle such a big mess of different configuration files and locations anymore. And I can't handle to explain that to customers and business software developers. They see Linux as a very confusing system. Obviously, switching from plain text to a key namespace is not enough. It must be adopted by higher level software, OS base configurations, distros, an ecosystem. Then we'll stop having different flavors of Linux, and something way more usable. > So to get a chance for adoption, you should also code the conversion of > old config files to elektra - a "hiveconf" layer between old configs and > elektra. > > Once you get this done and you get elektra adopted by upstream > developers of important packages, it's time to advocate for the > inclusion in a distro. This is the chicken-and-egg problem. Samba, Apache, etc may adopt it if major distros adopt it. Major distros will adopt it if Samba, Apache etc adopt it. Out there in the business world, developers (specially those who came from a Windows environment) are thirsty for some registry-like configuration store. Its easy to handle configurations (nobody wants to write configuration file compilers). Its better to design software that provides a plugin architecture (extensions integrate themselves changing a few keys, instead of having to understand and regenerate the whole configuration file). Current Linux (distro-specific) ad-hoc for this is the configuration dir, where you drop your configuration piece. I believe it is the distribution role to feel this market need and include developer tools like Elektra. I'm not saying to patch everything to a key database right now, but to just include it and let the ecosystem (specially of commercial apps) grow. It doesn't have to be Elektra, but for obvious reasons I believe it is the most system-wide, simple, and close to what they already know (WRegistry). BTW, Elektra API is also being ported to Windows, so a cross-platform app will have the same source code to access configurations (namespace is cross-plat too), and on Windows the API will fetch keys in the Windows Registry. More about this architecture in this presentation (I just uploaded an update): http://elektra.sourceforge.net/elektra.sxi or http://elektra.sourceforge.net/presentation/elektra.html > Right now, I don't think redhat folks have time to expend in the > enourmous task of elektrify - and maintain elektrified - the whole > fedora, even if they'd think it's the best idea in years. Nobody has time :-( This is why it takes time. And this is natural in the Open Source model. We at the Elektra list are writing patches (and help is welcome): - Patch for /sbin/init ready to be used (try the FC2 RPM from SF) - A name system switch (to get users from Elektra instead of passwd and group) ready to be used - Some patches to libc - And the X.org patch, so no /etc/X11/xorg.conf, but keys under system/sw/xorg/* . It is almost ready (by now I can convert any xorg.conf file to Elektra and vice-versa, and make X read its configurations from the key database) and very nice. - A graphical key database editor, similar to gconf-tool > It should be adopted by upstream developers. Including it in major distros may help here. Fedora/Red Hat is key. Regards, Avi From avibrazil at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 16:34:42 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:34:42 -0300 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: <1099530796.6858.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099530796.6858.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:13:16 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > Hi, > > Here is a post of mine from a past thread: > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gconf-list/2004-April/msg00024.html > > And what I would consider wrong with gconf: > http://www.gnome.org/projects/gconf/plans.html > > Like all "grand unification scheme" efforts, without consulting and > listening to the major customers, success is unlikely. e.g. when Keith P > succeeded with fontconfig, he talked to and then contributed patches to > GTK, Mozilla, Qt, etc. Thanks Havoc. I remember that kind message you sent, and just read it again. The point is: much of the design principles of Elektra was discussed a lot with the community, back in jan/feb/2004. Many things changed based on that, and also based in the discussion in xdg in april. One of them is the change notification need, specially for desktop apps. It is now implemented. About patches, we are making our best..... One question: Is GConf planed one day to be a system-wide configuration store? > For per-user config one set of issues is around group policy, directory > services, and that kind of sysadmin-creates-user-profiles issue; the > other set of issues has to do with how the desktop is implemented and > what UI we want, for example you need change notification. > > For system config the real issues of interest IMO are the overall > management tools; things like cfengine, lcfg, oneSIS, or RHN. Step by step. Configuration today is a huge problem. The UI configuration tools are the last thing in the chain. Elektra is only the base infrastructure for the storage, API and naming conventions. After Elektra, comes an ecosystem of bindings, tools like regedit, app adoption, and then higher level UI configuration tools. At this last point, all the infrastructure for configuration will be already done and clean. > Another useful conceptual difference is between setting up a > service/workload and associated data (e.g. configure apache, or > stressing the analogy you could say that a user login session is a > workload) and makework config such as telling the machine how to find > its hardware (modprobe.conf type of stuff). The latter can/should be all > automatic in an ideal world, though in a real world it can't be fully > so. > > You might think of the makework config as adjusting all machines to be > the same, and the service config as defining a service that can then run > on any of the identical machines. > > User and system config can conceivably be addressed in the same library, > as they share some core features, but I'm not convinced it has genuine > value to keep them together. I understand this points, but I think they are more related to the semantics of the keys and values. I believe that if you put this concepts in the bottom of the infrastructure (Elektra), you'll optimize it for some apps, and deoptimize it to others. Thats why I think they are needed, but in the next layer. About this subject, I like to show this item of Doc Searls' monumental World Of Ends: http://worldofends.com/#BM4 > Anyway. This is certainly an area where work is useful, but I think it's > a long road that involves both listening and coding in order to get wide > adoption. Yep. And I'm glad we can discuss it here. Your e-mails allways bring value to the discussion. So keep the stream. Regards, Avi From tjb at unh.edu Thu Nov 4 16:57:22 2004 From: tjb at unh.edu (Thomas J. Baker) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:57:22 -0500 Subject: NetworkManager and ndiswrapper Message-ID: <1099587442.17796.10.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> Can NM work with ndiswrapper? It doesn't seem to see the wireless wlan0 device at all. It doesn't seem like something I can bugzilla since ndiswrapper isn't supported. The sad thing is that it seems like ndiswrapper does a better job than even the latest 0.15rc2 orinoco drivers as far as providing the things NM needs to work well. Thanks, tjb -- ======================================================================= | Thomas Baker email: tjb at unh.edu | | Systems Programmer | | Research Computing Center voice: (603) 862-4490 | | University of New Hampshire fax: (603) 862-1761 | | 332 Morse Hall | | Durham, NH 03824 USA http://wintermute.sr.unh.edu/~tjb | ======================================================================= From dcbw at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 17:36:20 2004 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:36:20 -0500 Subject: NetworkManager and ndiswrapper In-Reply-To: <1099587442.17796.10.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> References: <1099587442.17796.10.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> Message-ID: <1099589780.20064.4.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> ndiswrapper doesn't create the necessary /sys/class/net//device links that HAL needs to be able to actually know that the device is a real ethernet card, rather than something like the cipsec Cisco IPSec device, or the sit0 IP6 device. There's really no other way to know that wlan0 is really a hardware device or not. The only way that PCMCIA cards get to work is because cardmgr dumps the device name to /var/lib/pcmcia/stab, which we can then match up with the reported net device name. ndiswrapper needs to be fixed. Dan On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 11:57 -0500, Thomas J. Baker wrote: > Can NM work with ndiswrapper? It doesn't seem to see the wireless wlan0 > device at all. > > It doesn't seem like something I can bugzilla since ndiswrapper isn't > supported. The sad thing is that it seems like ndiswrapper does a better > job than even the latest 0.15rc2 orinoco drivers as far as providing the > things NM needs to work well. > > Thanks, > > tjb > -- > ======================================================================= > | Thomas Baker email: tjb at unh.edu | > | Systems Programmer | > | Research Computing Center voice: (603) 862-4490 | > | University of New Hampshire fax: (603) 862-1761 | > | 332 Morse Hall | > | Durham, NH 03824 USA http://wintermute.sr.unh.edu/~tjb | > ======================================================================= > From gauret at free.fr Thu Nov 4 17:44:27 2004 From: gauret at free.fr (Aurelien Bompard) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:44:27 +0100 Subject: Does anyone else experience occasionnal xfs crashes? References: <20041104164747.27d5835d.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: Matthias Saou wrote: > Still, I was wondering, does anyone else suffer from the symptoms above? I had several xfs crashes with FC2, always when the machine was under heavy load and/or swapping a lot (most of the time rpmbuilding a C++ app). And xfs wasn't killed by the kernel to free memory, I checked /var/log/messages. I can't say it is reproductable either, but at least it happened to me too. Aur?lien -- http://gauret.free.fr ~~~~ Jabber : gauret at amessage.info In God we Trust. All others must submit an X.509 certificate. From kyrre at solution-forge.net Thu Nov 4 17:53:46 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:53:46 +0100 Subject: FC4 schedule (was Re: gnome 2.9) In-Reply-To: <20041103165844.GH10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500618.2813.27.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041103165844.GH10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1099590825.2746.15.camel@kyrre> Same goes for OpenOffice 2.0 ons, 03.11.2004 kl. 17.58 skrev Jakub Jelinek: > On Wed, Nov 03, 2004 at 05:50:18PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 11:44 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > > Do we have an FC4 schedule yet? FC isn't necessarily 6 months, people > > > could decide to do shorter. > > > > yeah I can see the point of doing a short cycle for FC4, once in a while > > it's good to do a "mostly bugfixes" release to get basic quality > > higher.... > > > > and another great feature to get out early will be the new GCC buffer > > overflow checking features. > > > > Sounds like Late January/ early February would be a nice date for a > > followup release.... > > It would be good to have FC5 GCC 4.0 based though, and the schedule > is unclear there. > GCC 4.0 is tentatively early 2005, but I'm not that sure it will be > out in mid February. > > Jakub From sopwith at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 18:23:46 2004 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:23:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Using RAID-1 with FC3rcN? Message-ID: Cristian ran into bug #138100 last night while upgrading his workstation. Since we don't know quite yet what the impact is on users (what situations the bug occurs in, and thus how common those situations are among users), In the interest of getting it right we may have to delay FC3 until this bug becomes clearer. http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138100 If anyone has done FC3rcN installs/upgrades that use RAID-1, please let me know the results, whether you were using LVM, and whether you had SELinux enabled. Thanks! -- Elliot From dmack at leviatron.com Thu Nov 4 22:08:51 2004 From: dmack at leviatron.com (Dave Mack) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:08:51 -0800 Subject: .649 and .667 kernels and random lockups In-Reply-To: <1099581006.12431.3.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1099581006.12431.3.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <418AA873.5060601@leviatron.com> seth vidal wrote: >Hi Everyone, > I've upgraded two machines to fc3rc5(ish) and then upgraded again to >latest rawhide. I've been running the .649 and .667 kernels on these two >systems. One is a dell dimension 2400 - p4 2.8ghz the other is an ibm >x23 thinkpad - p3-866mhz. Both of them will lockup if they sit idle for >a while. It's a hard lock up, I can't free them of it and I have no idea >what causes it. Is anyone else seeing this, too? > >Thanks >-sv > > > > Don't know about rawhide, but on FC2 I've had the screensaver put my machines into a state where they have to be powercycled. Turning off screensaver or judiciously choosing a single screensaver to run every time instead of allowing random selection has solved the problem. Dave From davej at redhat.com Thu Nov 4 22:16:54 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:16:54 -0500 Subject: .649 and .667 kernels and random lockups In-Reply-To: <418AA873.5060601@leviatron.com> References: <1099581006.12431.3.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <418AA873.5060601@leviatron.com> Message-ID: <20041104221654.GD27230@redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 02:08:51PM -0800, Dave Mack wrote: > >I've upgraded two machines to fc3rc5(ish) and then upgraded again to > >latest rawhide. I've been running the .649 and .667 kernels on these two > >systems. One is a dell dimension 2400 - p4 2.8ghz the other is an ibm > >x23 thinkpad - p3-866mhz. Both of them will lockup if they sit idle for > >a while. It's a hard lock up, I can't free them of it and I have no idea > >what causes it. Is anyone else seeing this, too? > > > Don't know about rawhide, but on FC2 I've had the screensaver put my > machines into a state where they have to be powercycled. Turning off > screensaver or judiciously choosing a single screensaver to run every > time instead of allowing random selection has solved the problem. strong suspects here are the 3D screensavers. They've been known to expose problems in 3d graphics drivers (both DRI and the binary only ones) before. If you're using a free 3d driver, you might want to try and narrow it down to a specific screensaver, and tell the dri folks. Dave From rodd at clarkson.id.au Thu Nov 4 23:46:04 2004 From: rodd at clarkson.id.au (Rodd Clarkson) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:46:04 +1100 Subject: gnome 2.9 In-Reply-To: <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1099451628.19385.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099473955.4089.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099500273.6858.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1099611965.3433.1.camel@clownfish.redfishdemo.com> On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 11:44 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 20:25 +1100, Rodd Clarkson wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 00:13 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > > > would gnome 2.9 be available for fc3 or fedora devel? > > > > GNOME uses similar versioning to the kernel. > > > > So 2.8 is a stable release, and 2.9 is a development release. As such, > > you don't want to be using 2.9.x unless you are willing to test gnome as > > it heads for a stable release 2.10 > > > > I'm fairly confident that 2.10 will be included in FC4 since they have > > similar release schedules. > > Do we have an FC4 schedule yet? FC isn't necessarily 6 months, people > could decide to do shorter. Sorry, let me revise. Given recent history as a guideline, I would imagine that Gnome-2.10 will be included in FC4. ;-] R. -- >From the pain come the dream >From the dream come the vision >From the vision come the people >From the people come the power >From this power come the change - Peter Gabriel From symbiont at berlios.de Fri Nov 5 08:28:39 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:28:39 +0800 Subject: File System Search Message-ID: <200411051628.39199.symbiont@berlios.de> In connection with the Google Desktop Search frenzy and a small contingent asking for a Linux port, I began a small search of already available stuff on Linux and bumped into an interesting project that hasn't been discussed here, yet. (Not to be confused with this: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2003-August/msg00100.html ) URL: fsdb.sf.net (No longer active; just wanted to discuss possibilities). The gist of it is to create a fresher slocate database by using a hook in the kernel to get fs updates and store them in an intermediate format. Then, instead of a daily update, you can setup fsdb to run hourly and it uses a lot less CPU to boot. And the updates only take seconds, instead of the long annoyingly slow "updatedb". I know this only provides name searching not the full gambit that GDS provides. But, it could be a start to improve things a bit more. For example, Konqueror has "Use files index", although it's pretty buggy, which would be more useful if the DB was more up-to-date. It'd be nice to bring a standard DB (with content search) in under the umbrella of freedesktop.org, but that's off-topic here. What other tools have you seen out there? Discuss away! -- -jeff From mcwimpy at gmx.at Fri Nov 5 08:56:07 2004 From: mcwimpy at gmx.at (Markus Nicolussi) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:56:07 +0100 (MET) Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on B&W PowerMacG3 References: <18758.1099579502@www4.gmx.net> Message-ID: <16607.1099644967@www65.gmx.net> Hello! If i burn the FC3 PPC development tree on an DVD, boot with a CD made of "boot.iso" (in dir. "mac") and select "CD-ROM" as Installation method, anaconda tells me that it didn't find a FC CD that fits to my boot CD. That's allready a bit more than i got with my first try (DVD without ".disc-info", without "SRPMS" and named other than "FC-3 ppc"). There it said that it didn'T find a FC CD. my second DVD should be OK, the only dir that didn't fit onto the dvd was "debug" but i read in a howto (http://www.bytebot.net/geekdocs/ibook/fedorappc.html), that i don't need it. so what's wrong? CAn anybody tell me what to do or where it's documented how i can install FC-3 on Macs? I have a PowerMac G3 (350MHz) and it's really important that i install fedora there... Thanx in advance. ciao, nico. -- NEU +++ DSL Komplett von GMX +++ http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl GMX DSL-Netzanschluss + Tarif zum superg?nstigen Komplett-Preis! From mcwimpy at gmx.at Fri Nov 5 09:00:48 2004 From: mcwimpy at gmx.at (Markus Nicolussi) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:00:48 +0100 (MET) Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on ibook2001 + B&W PowerMacG3 References: <1099492603.3364.32.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <2167.1099645248@www65.gmx.net> > Colin Charles wrote: > Also, the best place to discuss PPC-ness is the fedora- > ppc at lists.infradead.org mailing list - do give that a subscribe, thanks I tried this email adress. It doesn't seem to work. http://lists.infradead.org gives me the apache testpage and http://www.infradead.org doesn't help me either... am i somehow stupid? ciao, nico. -- Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail + 3 Top-Spielfilme auf DVD ++ Jetzt kostenlos testen http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail ++ From veguilla at hpcf.upr.edu Fri Nov 5 09:05:45 2004 From: veguilla at hpcf.upr.edu (Ricardo Veguilla) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 05:05:45 -0400 Subject: File System Search In-Reply-To: <200411051628.39199.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <200411051628.39199.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <1099645545.4738.4.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 16:28 +0800, Jeff Pitman wrote: > In connection with the Google Desktop Search frenzy and a small > contingent asking for a Linux port, I began a small search of already > available stuff on Linux and bumped into an interesting project that > hasn't been discussed here, yet. (Not to be confused with this: > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2003-August/msg00100.html ) > > URL: fsdb.sf.net (No longer active; just wanted to discuss > possibilities). > > The gist of it is to create a fresher slocate database by using a hook > in the kernel to get fs updates and store them in an intermediate > format. Then, instead of a daily update, you can setup fsdb to run > hourly and it uses a lot less CPU to boot. And the updates only take > seconds, instead of the long annoyingly slow "updatedb". > > I know this only provides name searching not the full gambit that GDS > provides. But, it could be a start to improve things a bit more. > > For example, Konqueror has "Use files index", although it's pretty > buggy, which would be more useful if the DB was more up-to-date. It'd > be nice to bring a standard DB (with content search) in under the > umbrella of freedesktop.org, but that's off-topic here. > > What other tools have you seen out there? > Beagle http://www.gnome.org/projects/beagle/ Regards, -- Ricardo Veguilla From symbiont at berlios.de Fri Nov 5 09:34:25 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:34:25 +0800 Subject: File System Search In-Reply-To: <1099645545.4738.4.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> References: <200411051628.39199.symbiont@berlios.de> <1099645545.4738.4.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> Message-ID: <200411051734.25520.symbiont@berlios.de> On Friday 05 November 2004 17:05, Ricardo Veguilla wrote: > Beagle > http://www.gnome.org/projects/beagle/ Heavy on the deps (is mono, C# in Fedora Core feasible??), interesting nonetheless. Would be nice to have sharable technology between KDE and Gnome. Especially with regards to a common DB. Maybe any Lucene implementation could get access to it... -- -jeff From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Fri Nov 5 10:19:35 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:19:35 +0100 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on ibook2001 + B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <2167.1099645248@www65.gmx.net> References: <1099492603.3364.32.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> <2167.1099645248@www65.gmx.net> Message-ID: <20041105111935.33dcf840.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:00:48 +0100 (MET), Markus Nicolussi wrote: > > Colin Charles wrote: > > Also, the best place to discuss PPC-ness is the fedora- > > ppc at lists.infradead.org mailing list - do give that a subscribe, thanks > > I tried this email adress. It doesn't seem to work. > > http://lists.infradead.org gives me the apache testpage > and > http://www.infradead.org doesn't help me either... > > am i somehow stupid? http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo -- Fedora Core release 2 (Tettnang) - Linux 2.6.9-1.2_FC2 loadavg: 0.26 0.14 0.13 From rdieter at math.unl.edu Fri Nov 5 11:39:17 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 05:39:17 -0600 Subject: Problem with Fedora Core 2 remote kdesktop In-Reply-To: <4188546F.202@ssl.berkeley.edu> References: <4188546F.202@ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <418B6665.1010003@math.unl.edu> Bruce Satow wrote: > Dear Folks, > > At work, on my WinXP Pro computer, I start Exceed (x server), then run > my SSH client to connect to my home linux server. I have set up my SSH > client to tunnel all X11 connections. I can run all my X applications > this way. > > When my server at home was running under RH9.0, I could SSH in (as > described above) to my home server from work, and at the linux prompt > typed the command 'kdesktop'. Then the entire KDE desktop would appear > on my remote computer. Dunno how/why it worked before, but AFAIK, the proper way to start kde is with the 'startkde' command, not kdesktop. -- Rex From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Fri Nov 5 11:42:11 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:42:11 +0100 Subject: Does anyone else experience occasionnal xfs crashes? In-Reply-To: References: <20041104164747.27d5835d.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <20041105124211.20903847.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Aurelien Bompard wrote : > Matthias Saou wrote: > > Still, I was wondering, does anyone else suffer from the symptoms > > above? > > I had several xfs crashes with FC2, always when the machine was under > heavy load and/or swapping a lot (most of the time rpmbuilding a C++ > app). And xfs wasn't killed by the kernel to free memory, I > checked /var/log/messages. > I can't say it is reproductable either, but at least it happened to me > too. I've got a little more on the problem : It seems that xfs exits cleanly after receiving a SIG-something. I had that happen while I was strace'ing in in tty1, but forgot to send the output to a file. I'll open a bug report as soon as it happens again, as I'm pipe tee'ing it now ;-) Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.649.radeon Load : 2.28 1.38 0.86 From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Fri Nov 5 11:48:10 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:48:10 +0100 Subject: Does anyone else experience occasionnal xfs crashes? In-Reply-To: <20041105124211.20903847.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <20041104164747.27d5835d.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <20041105124211.20903847.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <20041105124810.0008b2ed@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. Matthias Saou wrote: > I've got a little more on the problem : It seems that xfs exits cleanly > after receiving a SIG-something. I had that happen while I was > strace'ing in in tty1, but forgot to send the output to a file. I'll > open a bug report as soon as it happens again, as I'm pipe tee'ing it > now ;-) Why don't you just run it under gdb with -debuginfo installed? -- TRUST NO ONE. KEEP YOUR LASER HANDY. THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND. -- "Paranoia," Avalon Hill From alan at redhat.com Fri Nov 5 12:40:09 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:40:09 -0500 Subject: File System Search In-Reply-To: <200411051628.39199.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <200411051628.39199.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <20041105124009.GE31189@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 04:28:39PM +0800, Jeff Pitman wrote: > URL: fsdb.sf.net (No longer active; just wanted to discuss > possibilities). Not one I've met before although one of the virus vendors has a similar patch for Linux (GPL) that provides general purpose notification of updates within a subtree. From buildsys at redhat.com Fri Nov 5 13:12:11 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:12:11 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041105 changes Message-ID: <200411051312.iA5DCBM08179@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: rpmdb-fedora-3-0.20041105 ------------------------- From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 5 16:45:54 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:45:54 +0100 Subject: File System Search In-Reply-To: <20041105124009.GE31189@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411051628.39199.symbiont@berlios.de> <20041105124009.GE31189@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1099673153.2686.0.camel@kyrre> fre, 05.11.2004 kl. 13.40 skrev Alan Cox: > On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 04:28:39PM +0800, Jeff Pitman wrote: > > URL: fsdb.sf.net (No longer active; just wanted to discuss > > possibilities). > > Not one I've met before although one of the virus vendors has a similar patch > for Linux (GPL) that provides general purpose notification of updates within > a subtree. Hmm... that sounds like a kernel implementation of fam (or gamin, which it is currently named...) From avibrazil at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 18:01:42 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:01:42 -0200 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> <1099559473.5922.39.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: I was expecting more discussion on this issues, since I believe they are the strongest to slow down Linux ecosystem evolution and user friendlyness. This one: > But IMHO, I can't > handle such a big mess of different configuration files and locations > anymore. And I can't handle to explain that to customers and business > software developers. They see Linux as a very confusing system. > Obviously, switching from plain text to a key namespace is not enough. > It must be adopted by higher level software, OS base configurations, > distros, an ecosystem. Then we'll stop having different flavors of > Linux, and something way more usable. And this: > Out there in the business world, developers (specially those who came > from a Windows environment) are thirsty for some registry-like > configuration store. Its easy to handle configurations (nobody wants > to write configuration file compilers). Its better to design software > that provides a plugin architecture (extensions integrate themselves > changing a few keys, instead of having to understand and regenerate > the whole configuration file). Current Linux (distro-specific) ad-hoc > for this is the configuration dir, where you drop your configuration > piece. And this: > I believe it is the distribution role to feel this market need and > include developer tools like Elektra. I'm not saying to patch > everything to a key database right now, but to just include it and let > the ecosystem (specially of commercial apps) grow. It doesn't have to > be Elektra, but for obvious reasons I believe it is the most > system-wide, simple, and close to what they already know (WRegistry). > BTW, Elektra API is also being ported to Windows, so a cross-platform > app will have the same source code to access configurations (namespace > is cross-plat too), and on Windows the API will fetch keys in the > Windows Registry. More about this architecture in this presentation (I > just uploaded an update): > > http://elektra.sourceforge.net/elektra.sxi or > http://elektra.sourceforge.net/presentation/elektra.html Regards, Avi From si at bananas.hopto.org Fri Nov 5 18:11:30 2004 From: si at bananas.hopto.org (Si Jones) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:11:30 +0000 Subject: Using RAID-1 with FC3rcN? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1099678290.3747.2.camel@apple.bananas.hopto.org> On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 13:23 -0500, Elliot Lee wrote: > Cristian ran into bug #138100 last night while upgrading his workstation. > Since we don't know quite yet what the impact is on users (what situations > the bug occurs in, and thus how common those situations are among users), > In the interest of getting it right we may have to delay FC3 until this > bug becomes clearer. > > http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138100 > > If anyone has done FC3rcN installs/upgrades that use RAID-1, please let me > know the results, whether you were using LVM, and whether you had SELinux > enabled. > > Thanks! > -- Elliot > Hi, I am running on sata_sil a raid0 and raid1 arrays on the latest releases from dev. There seems to be no problem with my machine. SELinux disabled. Athlon XP 2800+ DFI Nforce2 768MB 2700 DDR 2 x seagate 80Gig From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 18:31:56 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:31:56 -0500 Subject: linux registry (no, not that again!) In-Reply-To: References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> <1099559473.5922.39.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <604aa791041105103175cfbe09@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:01:42 -0200, Avi Alkalay wrote: > I was expecting more discussion on this issues, since I believe they > are the strongest to slow down Linux ecosystem evolution and user > friendlyness. I just don't see the point of discussing this as something ready for inclusion in Fedora Core. I think discussion on this at the distribution level is premature if upstream projects do not yet have releases that use the configuration functionality elektra provides. What we are going to get if we have the discussion now, is a lot of opinion and very little hard evidence or common experience to draw on, what we get now is an argument. I see two paths to bring about useful discussion about inclusion in Core. 1) Elektra developers work closely upstream projects to make elektra essential or runtime optional side by side with traditional configuration. Once upstream projects push out releases that require elektra then fedora core will have a strong reason to include it as well as upstream rationale to support the technical benefits of inclusion. 2) put elektra packages and related tools IN fedora.us as a community packager and encourage Fedora users to install and configure there systems to use elektra. Building a track record of usage from fedora.us packages (aka Fedora Extras) provides a path towards long term integration and rationale through common experience to support inclusion. The way forward is to reduce the maintainership burden on Core package maintainers as elektra is intriduced to the userbase. You do this either by making upstream responsible for changes needed to have projects work with elektra, or you introduce elektra and related conversion tools as a Fedora Extras package set and get the userbase to start playing with it and provide a trackrecord of feedback to prove its worth the effort to integrate into Core later. Do what you can now to aim for inclusion in fc6. -jef From pbruna at linuxcenterla.com Fri Nov 5 20:38:34 2004 From: pbruna at linuxcenterla.com (Patricio Bruna V.) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:38:34 -0300 Subject: evolution and groupwise Message-ID: <1099687115.4780.2.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> I have working packages of evolution for fedora 3. this works really ok with Novell GroupWise 6.5. anyone would like to have this? -- Patricio Bruna http://www.linuxcenterla.com Ingeniero de Proyectos Canada # 239 Piso 5 Red Hat Certified Engineer Providencia, Santiago - CHILE Linux Center Latinoamerica Fono: +56 2 2745000, Fax : +56 22747075 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje est? firmada digitalmente URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Nov 5 12:56:12 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 23:56:12 +1100 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on ibook2001 + B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <2167.1099645248@www65.gmx.net> References: <1099492603.3364.32.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> <2167.1099645248@www65.gmx.net> Message-ID: <1099659372.19920.29.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 10:00 +0100, Markus Nicolussi wrote: > > Colin Charles wrote: > > Also, the best place to discuss PPC-ness is the fedora- > > ppc at lists.infradead.org mailing list - do give that a subscribe, thanks > > I tried this email adress. It doesn't seem to work. > > http://lists.infradead.org gives me the apache testpage > and > http://www.infradead.org doesn't help me either... http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ppc -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From cra at WPI.EDU Fri Nov 5 21:58:55 2004 From: cra at WPI.EDU (Charles R. Anderson) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:58:55 -0500 Subject: 802.11 Shared Key Authentication is bad [was NetworkManager Issues] In-Reply-To: <1099672226.6665.17.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> References: <77e74f3e04110207476002a81c@mail.gmail.com> <1099414363.24262.14.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> <1099437876.16576.16.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1099611731.4065.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099665904.6665.1.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> <1099670560.6622.36.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041105160822.GR1373@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <1099672226.6665.17.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041105215855.GS1373@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 11:30:26AM -0500, Dan Williams wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 11:08 -0500, Charles R. Anderson wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 05:02:40PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > > > As for the ipw2100 driver -- versions 0.57+ now actually default to > > > OPEN. But NM overrides this so no harm done. It does make life harder > > > if you're using ifup scripts with shared key authentication though. I > > > had to patch ifup-wireless to force restricted mode. > > > > Shared Key auth is worse than no authentication/encryption at all. > > Anyone with a clue will be using Open System. I don't think we should > > put too much effort into making Shared Key easy to use. > > Charles, > > Why is it so much worse? By doing Shared Key Authentication, you are providing potential crackers with both the Plaintext and the Ciphertext for the same data. This makes is much much easier for a third party to basically figure out what the WEP key is. Here is an excerpt from Jon Edney and William A. Arbaugh's book, Real 802.11 Security, pp. 91-92: "During [shared key] authentication the access point sends a random string of 128 bytes. The way in which this "random" string is generated is not defined, but one would hope at least that it was different for each authentication attempt. The mobile station encrypts the string and sends it back. Sounds good, but hang on a moment--WEP encryption involves generating a sequence of pseudorandom bytes called the key stream and XORing it with the plaintext. So any one watching this transaction now has the plaintext challenge and the encrypted response. Therefore, simply by XORing the two together, the enemy has a copy of the RC4 random bytes. [...] The attacker is "authenticated" without ever knowing the secret key. Hopless! [...] So not only does this approach not authenticate, it actually assists the enemy to attack the encryption keys" > Also, did you read my explanation of how its much much harder with Open > System to figure out if the WEP key is wrong? That's the big sticking > point here. If we can't automatically detect whether the WEP key is > wrong or not (and waiting 30s for a failed DHCP certainly isn't > "automatic"), then we might as well not even try to improve on the > current system-config-network. I agree that that is a problem. However, there is no good way to fix it without compromising the security of the entire system. From nandox7 at myrealbox.com Fri Nov 5 22:30:32 2004 From: nandox7 at myrealbox.com (Fernando Morais) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 22:30:32 -0000 Subject: A true package manager. Message-ID: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> Hi everyone, for when is it scheduled to include a true package manager? One that gives ther options to see all rpm's instaled, remove, install new nes, and so on... In the early stages of fedora, one of the test releases, before the FC 1, came with a tool that does part of what i said before, despite part of it's functions where disabled. But it never was included before. Is there a reason for that? Because a grafical tool to do interface with yum woulld be great, so some basic task could be done, like adding rpm's, removing, seeing all the rpm's avaiable to install, and more. And it could o a litle further, merge it with up2date and create only one tool, that deals all the functions regarding the managing of the rpm's, the detection of updates, and so on... Is there anything planned? Thank you, Nando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mr700 at mr700.cjb.net Fri Nov 5 23:19:33 2004 From: mr700 at mr700.cjb.net (Doncho N. Gunchev) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 01:19:33 +0200 Subject: Mail gui config In-Reply-To: <4186F58D.7030406@mminternet.com> References: <20041030003519.60395.qmail@web80704.mail.yahoo.com> <4184ABA0.2050003@Utel.no> <4186F58D.7030406@mminternet.com> Message-ID: <200411060119.34371@-mr700> On 2004-11-02 (Tuesday) 04:48, Z wrote: > I don't like sendmail myself, but postfix is pretty complex as well. Not that complex. I spent about a week to get sendmail working almost the way I wanted it to. With postfix I can make much more complicated things in a few hours (and it's not only me)... I want to mention that postfix's security record is much better, it is faster and eats less resources too! -- Regards, Doncho N. Gunchev Registered Linux User #291323 at counter.li.org GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/DA454F79 http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 684F 688B C508 C609 0371 5E0F A089 CB15 DA45 4F79 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From satow at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Nov 6 03:36:42 2004 From: satow at ssl.berkeley.edu (Bruce Satow) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 19:36:42 -0800 Subject: Problem with Fedora Core 2 remote kdesktop In-Reply-To: <418B6665.1010003@math.unl.edu> References: <4188546F.202@ssl.berkeley.edu> <418B6665.1010003@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <418C46CA.6050709@ssl.berkeley.edu> Thanks for the info Rex. I actually found it by accident. I will try startkde instead. Is there a similar command for gnome? -Bruce Rex Dieter wrote: > Bruce Satow wrote: > >> Dear Folks, >> >> At work, on my WinXP Pro computer, I start Exceed (x server), then >> run my SSH client to connect to my home linux server. I have set up >> my SSH client to tunnel all X11 connections. I can run all my X >> applications this way. >> >> When my server at home was running under RH9.0, I could SSH in (as >> described above) to my home server from work, and at the linux prompt >> typed the command 'kdesktop'. Then the entire KDE desktop would >> appear on my remote computer. > > > Dunno how/why it worked before, but AFAIK, the proper way to start kde > is with the 'startkde' command, not kdesktop. > > -- Rex > From pekkas at netcore.fi Sat Nov 6 06:44:28 2004 From: pekkas at netcore.fi (Pekka Savola) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:44:28 +0200 (EET) Subject: 802.11 Shared Key Authentication is bad [was NetworkManager Issues] In-Reply-To: <20041105215855.GS1373@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> References: <77e74f3e04110207476002a81c@mail.gmail.com> <1099414363.24262.14.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> <1099437876.16576.16.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1099611731.4065.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1099665904.6665.1.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> <1099670560.6622.36.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041105160822.GR1373@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <1099672226.6665.17.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> <20041105215855.GS1373@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2004, Charles R. Anderson wrote: > On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 11:30:26AM -0500, Dan Williams wrote: >> On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 11:08 -0500, Charles R. Anderson wrote: >>> On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 05:02:40PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: >>>> As for the ipw2100 driver -- versions 0.57+ now actually default to >>>> OPEN. But NM overrides this so no harm done. It does make life harder >>>> if you're using ifup scripts with shared key authentication though. I >>>> had to patch ifup-wireless to force restricted mode. >>> >>> Shared Key auth is worse than no authentication/encryption at all. >>> Anyone with a clue will be using Open System. I don't think we should >>> put too much effort into making Shared Key easy to use. >> >> Charles, >> >> Why is it so much worse? > > By doing Shared Key Authentication, you are providing potential > crackers with both the Plaintext and the Ciphertext for the same data. > This makes is much much easier for a third party to basically figure > out what the WEP key is. [...] That said, are there plans for fedora to support 802.11x? Plus different EAP variants, most importantly EAP-TLS? There are open source packages out there... and it would be nice if Linux could do this off-the-box such as Windows has been doing for a long time now.. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings From dragoran at feuerpokemon.de Sat Nov 6 06:53:55 2004 From: dragoran at feuerpokemon.de (dragoran) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 07:53:55 +0100 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> Message-ID: <418C7503.5030603@feuerpokemon.de> Fernando Morais schrieb: > Hi everyone, > > for when is it scheduled to include a true package manager? > One that gives ther options to see all rpm's instaled, remove, install > new nes, and so on... > In the early stages of fedora, one of the test releases, before the FC > 1, came with a tool that does part of > what i said before, despite part of it's functions where disabled. But > it never was included before. Is there a reason for that? > > Because a grafical tool to do interface with yum woulld be great, so > some basic task could be done, like adding rpm's, removing, seeing all > the rpm's avaiable to install, and more. > And it could o a litle further, merge it with up2date and create only > one tool, that deals all the functions regarding the > managing of the rpm's, the detection of updates, and so on... > > Is there anything planned? > > Thank you, > > Nando yes there is: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/specs/redhat-config-packages/ but I don't know if it would be in FC4... From nandox7 at myrealbox.com Sat Nov 6 10:19:17 2004 From: nandox7 at myrealbox.com (Nando) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 10:19:17 +0000 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <418C7503.5030603@feuerpokemon.de> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <418C7503.5030603@feuerpokemon.de> Message-ID: <418CA525.9090807@myrealbox.com> dragoran wrote: > Fernando Morais schrieb: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> for when is it scheduled to include a true package manager? >> One that gives ther options to see all rpm's instaled, remove, >> install new nes, and so on... >> In the early stages of fedora, one of the test releases, before the >> FC 1, came with a tool that does part of >> what i said before, despite part of it's functions where disabled. >> But it never was included before. Is there a reason for that? >> >> Because a grafical tool to do interface with yum woulld be great, so >> some basic task could be done, like adding rpm's, removing, seeing >> all the rpm's avaiable to install, and more. >> And it could o a litle further, merge it with up2date and create only >> one tool, that deals all the functions regarding the >> managing of the rpm's, the detection of updates, and so on... >> >> Is there anything planned? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Nando > > > yes there is: > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/specs/redhat-config-packages/ > > but I don't know if it would be in FC4... > well that is the program i was talking about. Notice that in the page as no alteration since 2003. And i can't find it in the rpm tree. This promised to be a good rpm manager, but i never seen it again uncluded in a release. From avibrazil at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 10:25:25 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 07:25:25 -0300 Subject: Linux conceptual configuration problems In-Reply-To: <604aa791041105103175cfbe09@mail.gmail.com> References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> <1099559473.5922.39.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <604aa791041105103175cfbe09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:31:56 -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I just don't see the point of discussing this as something ready for > inclusion in Fedora Core. I was actually wanting to hear from you guys your opinion of Linux usability problems (not GUIs, but the system as a whole), the complexities of system configuration, and what paths you guys think we have to go to solve them. I see Linux today as many separated programs that were forced to work together, but not designed to do so. So the system as a whole is not integrated. What I'm trying to say is that customers (the most important people in the world for all companies everybody here works to) see Linux as very difficult, too many configuration files, in unknown places, that are not related with each other, and softwares use to not make necessary changes in each one to get automatically integrated in the system, etc. Linux is easy for me or for all of you. We have fun with it. But for the real world out there that needs fast and simple deployments it is not. And this is something that slows down Linux adoption in some ways. Is this a too business-oriented discussion to have in this list? Regards, Avi From mailinglists at andreas-mueller.com Sat Nov 6 10:30:10 2004 From: mailinglists at andreas-mueller.com (Andreas Mueller) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:30:10 +0100 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <418CA525.9090807@myrealbox.com> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <418C7503.5030603@feuerpokemon.de> <418CA525.9090807@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <200411061130.10868.mailinglists@andreas-mueller.com> Nando wrote: > dragoran wrote: > > yes there is: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/specs/redhat-config- > >packages/ > > > > but I don't know if it would be in FC4... > > well that is the program i was talking about. > Notice that in the page as no alteration since 2003. And i can't find > it in the rpm tree. > This promised to be a good rpm manager, but i never seen it again > uncluded in a release. The name was changed to system-config-packages. Andreas From jos at xos.nl Sat Nov 6 10:33:53 2004 From: jos at xos.nl (Jos Vos) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:33:53 +0100 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <418CA525.9090807@myrealbox.com>; from nandox7@myrealbox.com on Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 10:19:17AM +0000 References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <418C7503.5030603@feuerpokemon.de> <418CA525.9090807@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20041106113353.A12679@xos037.xos.nl> On Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 10:19:17AM +0000, Nando wrote: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/specs/redhat-config-packages/ > > > > but I don't know if it would be in FC4... > > > well that is the program i was talking about. > Notice that in the page as no alteration since 2003. And i can't find it > in the rpm tree. > This promised to be a good rpm manager, but i never seen it again > uncluded in a release. Redhat-config-packages is included since Red Hat Linux 8, it appeared in RHL8, RHL9, RHEL3, and FC1, and (renamed to system-config-packages) also in FC2. It is also (renamed) part of the betas of FC3 and RHEL4. -- -- Jos Vos -- X/OS Experts in Open Systems BV | Phone: +31 20 6938364 -- Amsterdam, The Netherlands | Fax: +31 20 6948204 From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Sat Nov 6 10:43:18 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 11:43:18 +0100 Subject: Linux conceptual configuration problems In-Reply-To: References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> <1099559473.5922.39.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <604aa791041105103175cfbe09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1099737798.28074.8.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le samedi 06 novembre 2004 ? 07:25 -0300, Avi Alkalay a ?crit : > What I'm trying to say is that customers (the most important people in > the world for all companies everybody here works to) see Linux as very > difficult, too many configuration files, in unknown places, that are > not related with each other, and softwares use to not make necessary > changes in each one to get automatically integrated in the system, > etc. ROTFL I can tell you that package-based Linux systems are light-years ahead of anything you can find in the Windows world right now. You can do seamless apt/yum/up2date upgrades for years without anything breaking seriously. Contrast it with the panic any Windows or Oracle or whatever SP causes in the commercial world (and these are never released less than 6 months apart) Seriously, you might have a point WRT the initial install (and even then I'm not sure - RH/FC is very good at selecting good defaults) but all your tight integration falls apart fairly quickly as soon as you put upgrades/updates in the picture. The good thing about syntax diversity is people do not assume any particular config state, so system tolerance to changes is pretty high. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From shiva at sewingwitch.com Sat Nov 6 10:37:56 2004 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 02:37:56 -0800 Subject: Linux conceptual configuration problems In-Reply-To: References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> <1099559473.5922.39.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <604aa791041105103175cfbe09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: --On Saturday, November 06, 2004 7:25 AM -0300 Avi Alkalay wrote: > I see Linux today as many separated programs > that were forced to work together, but not designed to do so. So the > system as a whole is not integrated. Don't forget that Linux is not Fedora. There are many flavors of Linux at many scales, from tiny embedded systems to massive clusters. Configuration machinery for one deployment may be inappropriate for another. From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Sat Nov 6 12:08:15 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 13:08:15 +0100 Subject: Mail gui config In-Reply-To: <200411060119.34371@-mr700> References: <20041030003519.60395.qmail@web80704.mail.yahoo.com> <4184ABA0.2050003@Utel.no> <4186F58D.7030406@mminternet.com> <200411060119.34371@-mr700> Message-ID: <1099742895.12117.325.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 00:19, Doncho N. Gunchev wrote: > On 2004-11-02 (Tuesday) 04:48, Z wrote: > > I don't like sendmail myself, but postfix is pretty complex as well. > Not that complex. I spent about a week to get sendmail working > almost the way I wanted it to. With postfix I can make much more > complicated things in a few hours (and it's not only me)... Because you know Postfix, and don't know sendmail. With m4 sendmail is not so difficult to configure. > I want to mention that postfix's security record is much better, Not true. Just look to the past two years. The historical security record of sendmail is poor, but to compare it with the security record of tools that does not even exists when those security holes appeared is not fair. Of course if I code tomorrow "foomail" will have a better security record than Postfix. > it is faster and eats less resources too Did you benchmarked this, or are those simply your intuitions ? I readed third party benchmarks of sendmail vs Postfix vs Qmail, and Postfix had the worst results. I also readed benchmarks from Postfix advocates and Postfix had the best results. You can find this benchmark in lots of Postfix sites, the same benchmark I mean. But well, what I'd like to ask is: What's wrong with current fedora's MTA management ? You can use Postfix, you can use sendmail, you can switch betwen them ... What's the problem then ? Are you advocating to delete sendmail ?? Are you proposing any other MTA management scheme better than current fedora's one ? If you'll not do it, this thread is simply a waste of time. -- Iago Rubio From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Sat Nov 6 12:10:09 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 13:10:09 +0100 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> Message-ID: <1099743009.12117.329.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 23:30, Fernando Morais wrote: > Hi everyone, > > for when is it scheduled to include a true package manager? Yum is a true package manager. > One that gives ther options to see all rpm's instaled, remove, install > new nes, and so on... Yum. > In the early stages of fedora, one of the test releases, before the FC > 1, came with a tool that does part of > what i said before, despite part of it's functions where disabled. But > it never was included before. Is there a reason for that? redhat-config-packages ??? > Because a grafical tool to do interface with yum woulld be great, so > some basic task could be done, like adding rpm's, removing, seeing all > the rpm's avaiable to install, and more. I see your point, a graphical front-end for yum would be useful. > And it could o a litle further, merge it with up2date and create only > one tool, that deals all the functions regarding the > managing of the rpm's, the detection of updates, and so on... I don't think yum should merge with up2date. Yum bypasses up2date functionality right now and frankly I don't use up2date ever because it's still buggy (On my FC1 and FC2 systems). I'd really like to interface the rhn applet with yum, or at least to make it configurable so you could launch your preferred update command - in my case `xterm -e yum update` :) -- Iago Rubio From jos at xos.nl Sat Nov 6 12:22:02 2004 From: jos at xos.nl (Jos Vos) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 13:22:02 +0100 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <1099743009.12117.329.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net>; from iago.rubio@hispalinux.es on Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 01:10:09PM +0100 References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <1099743009.12117.329.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <20041106132202.A13076@xos037.xos.nl> On Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 01:10:09PM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > I don't think yum should merge with up2date. Yum bypasses up2date > functionality right now and frankly I don't use up2date ever because > it's still buggy (On my FC1 and FC2 systems). What are the bugs you encounter? The only real problem I know of is the zero-size overview in up2date due to the fact that yum's header.info file does not include package sizes. I have solved this for X/OS Linux ( I'd really like to interface the rhn applet with yum, or at least to > make it configurable so you could launch your preferred update command - > in my case `xterm -e yum update` :) What do you mean with "interface the rhn applet with yum"? Rhn-applet works fine with yum repositories. See for my versions of yum, up2date, rhnlib and rhn-applet (all these packages are originally the FC2 versions) for X/OS Linux 3 (see the package's changelogs for a description of the changes). Cheers, -- -- Jos Vos -- X/OS Experts in Open Systems BV | Phone: +31 20 6938364 -- Amsterdam, The Netherlands | Fax: +31 20 6948204 From ndbecker2 at verizon.net Sat Nov 6 12:24:33 2004 From: ndbecker2 at verizon.net (Neal Becker) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 07:24:33 -0500 Subject: bad signature kernel-2.6.9-1.667.src.rpm? Message-ID: sudo rpm -i http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/development/SRPMS/kernel-2.6.9-1.667.src.rpm error: /var/tmp/rpm-xfer.WPp1Ny: V3 DSA signature: BAD, key ID 4f2a6fd2 error: /var/tmp/rpm-xfer.WPp1Ny cannot be installed From avibrazil at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 11:25:53 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:25:53 -0300 Subject: Linux conceptual configuration problems In-Reply-To: References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> <1099559473.5922.39.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <604aa791041105103175cfbe09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 02:37:56 -0800, Kenneth Porter wrote: > --On Saturday, November 06, 2004 7:25 AM -0300 Avi Alkalay > wrote: > > > I see Linux today as many separated programs > > that were forced to work together, but not designed to do so. So the > > system as a whole is not integrated. > > Don't forget that Linux is not Fedora. There are many flavors of Linux at > many scales, from tiny embedded systems to massive clusters. Configuration > machinery for one deployment may be inappropriate for another. Of course. But currently no massive cluster and no tiny deployment provides a way to apps integrate themselves automatically through their configurations. They allways have to ask users to manualy edit configuration files. Regards, Avi From lightingisfun at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 06:10:50 2004 From: lightingisfun at gmail.com (David Corrigan) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 22:10:50 -0800 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> Message-ID: <7248933a04110522104c06263e@mail.gmail.com> There is something similar to what you are describing. click the red hat and goto System Settings -> Add/Remove Applications. I'm not sure if it it will only look for the packages on the installation media you used or if it goes the internet to look for the packages. David On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 22:30:32 -0000, Fernando Morais wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > for when is it scheduled to include a true package manager? > One that gives ther options to see all rpm's instaled, remove, install new > nes, and so on... > In the early stages of fedora, one of the test releases, before the FC 1, > came with a tool that does part of > what i said before, despite part of it's functions where disabled. But it > never was included before. Is there a reason for that? > > Because a grafical tool to do interface with yum woulld be great, so some > basic task could be done, like adding rpm's, removing, seeing all the rpm's > avaiable to install, and more. > And it could o a litle further, merge it with up2date and create only one > tool, that deals all the functions regarding the > managing of the rpm's, the detection of updates, and so on... > > Is there anything planned? > > Thank you, > > Nando > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > > From buildsys at redhat.com Sat Nov 6 13:24:54 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:24:54 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes Message-ID: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> New package OpenIPMI OpenIPMI (Intelligent Platform Management Interface) library and tools New package ant Ant build tool for java New package antlr ANother Tool for Language Recognition New package avalon-framework Java components interfaces New package avalon-logkit Java logging toolkit New package bcel Byte Code Engineering Library New package classpath-inetlib GNU Classpath inetlib New package classpathx-jaf GNU JavaBeans(tm) Activation Framework New package classpathx-mail GNU JavaMail(tm) New package gnu-crypto GNU Crypto library for Java New package ipv6calc IPv6 address format change and calculation utility New package jakarta-commons-logging Jakarta Commons Logging Package New package java_cup Java source interpreter New package jdepend Java Design Quality Metrics New package jlex A Lexical Analyzer Generator for Java New package junit Java regression test package New package libgconf-java Java bindings for GConf New package libglade-java Java bindings for libglade New package libgnome-java Java bindings for libgnome New package libgtk-java Java bindings for GTK+ New package log4j Java logging package New package mysqlclient10 Backlevel MySQL shared libraries. New package openhpi openhpi Hardware Platform Interface (HPI) library and tools New package oro Full regular expressions API New package regexp Simple regular expressions API New package servletapi5 Java servlet and JSP implementation classes New package xalan-j2 Java XSLT processor New package xerces-j2 Java XML parser New package xml-commons Common code for XML projects New package xml-commons-resolver Resolver subproject of xml-commons. Updated Packages: Canna-3.7p3-8 ------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Akira TAGOH - 3.7p3-8 - rebuilt Thu Oct 21 2004 Akira TAGOH - 3.7p3-7 - dot.canna: assigned quit to Escape key to escape with Escape key from the mode. (#135039) MyODBC-2.50.39-20 ----------------- Fri Oct 29 2004 Tom Lane 2.50.39-20 - Force build against mysqlclient10, not mysql, for license reasons amanda-2.4.4p4-1 ---------------- Mon Oct 25 2004 Jay Fenlason 2.4.4p4-1 - New upstream version - Turn on --disable-dependency-tracking to work around an automake bug. arts-8:1.3.1-3 -------------- Fri Oct 29 2004 Than Ngo 8:1.3.1-3 - rebuilt in fc4 tree Sat Oct 16 2004 Than Ngo 8:1.3.1-2 - rebuilt for rhel Wed Oct 06 2004 Than Ngo 1.3.1-1 - update to KDE 3.3.1 aspell-pt-50:0.50-9 ------------------- Thu Oct 21 2004 Adrian Havill 50:0.50-9 - add brasileiro alias (#104843) authconfig-4.6.5-5 ------------------ Thu Oct 28 2004 Dan Walsh - Fix setsebool patch to turn off boolean Thu Oct 28 2004 Dan Walsh - Add setsebool for NIS Fri Oct 15 2004 Tomas Mraz - force broken_shadow option on network auth (#136760) autofs-1:4.1.3-41 ----------------- Wed Nov 03 2004 Chris Feist - 1:4.1.3-41 - Fixed init script to not look for maps in the current directory (bz #57008) Fri Oct 29 2004 Chris Feist - 1:4.1.3-38 - Fixed ldap limit search patch to only issue warnings only when ghosting is requested. Wed Oct 27 2004 Chris Feist - 1:4.1.3-33 - Added a patch to fix the automounter failing on ldap maps when it couldn't get the whole map. (ie. when the search limit was lower than the number of results) automake-1.9.3-1 ---------------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Daniel Reed 1.9.3-1 - version bump - Dependency tracking using mode "dashmstdout" or "dashXmstdout" did not work for libtool objects compiled with --tag (i.e., compiled with Libtool 1.5 or later). The compilation would succeed, but `depcomp' would emit a warning and not output any dependency information. - Ignore comments from augmented variables ... - `install-sh -d a/b/' failed to create `a/b/' because of the trailing `/'. - _PROGRAMS now always create programs. Before 1.9 it would mistakenly create a libtool library if the name of the program ended in `.la'. - `compile' now handles `*.obj' objects. - `aclocal' recognizes AC_DEFUN_ONCE. Tue Sep 28 2004 Warren Togami - 1.9.2-3 - trim docs Mon Sep 20 2004 Daniel Reed - 1.9.2-1 - version bump - Sort rm commands output for mostlyclean-generic, clean-generic, distclean-generic and maintainer-clean-generic, so that the produced Makefile is not sensitive to the way Perl sorts its hashes. - Support `+' in the name of directories given to `include'. - Preserve spaces in the arguments of `compile'. - `missing' will no longer try to emulate a tool that is run with `--version' or `--help' as argument. - There is a new chapter about the history of Automake. binutils-2.15.92.0.2-6 ---------------------- Wed Oct 27 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.15.92.0.2-6 - fix ar xo (#104344) checkpolicy-1.18.1-1 -------------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.1-1 - Latest from NSA * MLS build fix. coreutils-5.2.1-32 ------------------ Mon Oct 25 2004 Steve Grubb 5.2.1-32 - Handle the return code of function calls in runcon. Mon Oct 18 2004 Tim Waugh - Prevent compiler warning in coreutils-i18n.patch (bug #136090). cpio-2.5-9 ---------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Peter Vrabec - support large files > 2GB (#105617) Thu Oct 21 2004 Peter Vrabec - fix dependencies in spec cups-1:1.1.22-1 --------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Tim Waugh 1:1.1.22-1 - 1.1.22. - No longer need ippfail, overread or str970 patches. Tue Oct 26 2004 Tim Waugh 1:1.1.22-0.rc2.1 - Make cancel-cups(1) man page point to lp-cups(1) not lp(1) (bug #136973). - Use upstream patch for STR #953. - 1.1.22rc2. Wed Oct 20 2004 Tim Waugh 1:1.1.22-0.rc1.7 - Prevent filters generating incorrect PS in locales where "," is the decimal separator (bug #136102). Patch from STR #970. cyrus-sasl-2.1.20-1 ------------------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 2.1.20-1 - build with mysqlclient10 instead of mysql-devel (#TBD) Wed Oct 27 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 2.1.20-0 - update to 2.1.20, including the fix for CAN-2004-0884 dbus-0.22-11 ------------ Tue Nov 02 2004 John (J5) Palmieri - Add a requires for glib2-devel in the devel package - Add SE-Linux backport from Colin Walters that fixes messages getting lost in SE-Linux contexts desktop-printing-0.17-4 ----------------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Colin Walters 0.17-4 - BR hal-devel (bug #137543) - Add patch eggcups-use-printer-uri.patch (Bug #134292) Sat Oct 23 2004 John (J5) Palmieri 0.17-3 - use_usb_if_null patch makes sure that the make and model of the printer is never null even if hal does not populate the printer.vendor and info.product fields. (Bug #136666) Fri Oct 15 2004 Colin Walters 0.17-2 - Backport patches from CVS: - eggcups-int-gsize.patch (fixes type conflict on x86_64) - eggcups-no-help.patch (rh bug 135919) diskdumputils-0.6.2-0 --------------------- Wed Oct 13 2004 Nobuhiro Tachino (0.6.2) - Merge fixes from IBM ppc64. - Update README docbook-style-xsl-1.66.1-1 -------------------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Tim Waugh 1.66.1-1 - 1.66.1 (bug #133586). eject-2.0.13-12 --------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Than Ngo 2.0.13-12 - rebuilt Tue Nov 02 2004 Than Ngo 2.0.13-11 - fix Invalid argument error, bug #131959 elfutils-0.97-2 --------------- Sun Sep 26 2004 Jeff Johnson 0.97-2 - upgrade to 0.97. emacs-21.3-18 ------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Jens Petersen - 21.3-18 - require fonts-xorg-75dpi to prevent empty boxes at startup due to missing fonts (Johannes Kaiser, 137060) - turn on emacs again in the desktop menu (132567) epiphany-1.4.4-5 ---------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti - 1.4.4-5 - Update the desktop files database. Fix #135566 evolution-2.0.2-4 ----------------- Wed Oct 27 2004 Christopher Aillon - 2.0.2-4 - Re-enable s390(x) file-roller-2.8.3-1 ------------------- Wed Nov 03 2004 Christopher Aillon 2.8.3-1 - Update to 2.8.3 Wed Oct 13 2004 Christopher Aillon 2.8.2-2 - Update to 2.8.2 firefox-0:0.99-1.0RC1.3 ----------------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Christopher Aillon 0:0.99-1.0RC1.3 - Add support for GNOME stock icons. (bmo #233461) Sat Oct 30 2004 Warren Togami 0:0.99-1.0RC1.2 - #136330 BR freetype-devel with conditions - #135050 firefox should own mozilla plugin dir Sat Oct 30 2004 Christopher Aillon 0:0.99-1.0RC1.1 - Update to firefox-rc1 - Add patch for s390(x) freeciv-1.14.2-3 ---------------- Tue Oct 26 2004 Daniel Reed 1.14.2-3 - [136921] Try a little harder to run as nobody Mon Oct 25 2004 Daniel Reed 1.14.2-2 - [136921] Provide the user with the opportunity to run FreeCiv as root if unable to su to nobody, and throw up an error message if everything fails gaim-1:1.0.2-1 -------------- Tue Oct 19 2004 Warren Togami 1.0.2-1 - 1.0.2 fixes many crashes, endian and other issues gamin-0.0.16-1 -------------- Wed Oct 20 2004 Daniel Veillard 0.0.16-1 - chasing #132354, lot of debugging, checking and testing and a bit of refactoring gawk-3.1.3-10 ------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Karel Zak 3.1.3-10 - fixed crash on non-UTF8 locales (#137832) gcc-3.4.2-8 ----------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.2-8 - added object size checking patch (more limited than in gcc4-4.0.0-0.x, still should catch some overflows) Mon Oct 25 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.2-7 - fix ICE in dwarf2out.c introduced in 3.4.2-6 (#136884) - fix -fwritable-strings (#136714) Mon Oct 18 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.2-6 - update from gcc-3_4-branch - PRs c++/15786, c++/15876, c++/16301, c/16999, c/17023, c++/17115, c/17384, c++/17393, c++/17524, c++/17685, c++/17821, c++/17826, c++/17868, c++/17976, debug/13841, debug/14492, debug/15860, libstdc++/17850, other/17361, rtl-opt/17503, rtl-optimization/17027, rtl-optimization/17853, target/14454, target/17245, target/17770 - fix ICE in addqi_1_slp on i386 (#135872) - avoid symlinks in /usr/include/c++/3.4.2/ on ppc and sparc (#135611) - make sure .toc{,1} sections are created on ppc -m64 -mminimal-toc (#134248, PR target/17751) - define __GNUC_RH_RELEASE__ macro to match %{gcc_release} rpm macro (well, its first number) gcc4-4.0.0-0.9 -------------- Thu Oct 28 2004 Jakub Jelinek 4.0.0-0.9 - update from trunk - run testsuite with LC_ALL=C gd-2.0.32-1 ----------- Wed Nov 03 2004 Phil Knirsch 2.0.32-1 - Update to 2.0.32 which includes all the security fixes Wed Oct 27 2004 Phil Knirsch 2.0.28-2 - Fixed several buffer overflows for gdMalloc() calls Tue Jul 27 2004 Phil Knirsch 2.0.28-1 - Update to 2.0.28 gdb-6.1post-1.20040607.44 ------------------------- Fri Nov 05 2004 Jeff Johnston 1.200400607.44 - Allow macros to continue past a backtrace error Tue Oct 26 2004 Andrew Cagney 1.200400607.43 - Hack around broken PT_FPSCR defined in headers. - Import latest s390 fixes. - Disable sigstep.exp - s390 has problems. - Use PC's symtab when looking for a symbol. - Work around DW_OP_piece. Fri Oct 22 2004 Andrew Cagney 1.200400607.42 - For 64-bit PPC, convert _dl_debug_state descriptor into a code address. - Fix --ignore option. gedit-1:2.8.1-2 --------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti 1:2.8.1-2 - Update the desktop files database. (RH Bug: 135571) gimp-2:2.2-0.0.pre1.1 --------------------- Wed Nov 03 2004 Nils Philippsen - version 2.2-pre1 Sun Oct 24 2004 Nils Philippsen - remove unnecessary echo statement Fri Oct 15 2004 Nils Philippsen - version 2.1.7 unstable gimp-gap-2.0.2-3 ---------------- Fri Oct 22 2004 Nils Philippsen - fix array out of bounds error (#136758) glibc-2.3.3-75 -------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-75 - update from CVS - mktime cleanups (BZ #487, #473, - unique comments in free(3) check error messages - adjust some x86_64 headers for -m32 (#129712) - object size checking support even with GCC-3.4.2-RH >= 3.4.2-8 gnome-audio-2.0.0-2 ------------------- Thu Oct 21 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti - #81031 Missing sound files gnome-bluetooth-0.5.1-6 ----------------------- Mon Oct 25 2004 Harald Hoyer - 0.5.1-6 - fixed again gnome-bluetooth-manager script for 64bit (bug 134864) gnome-media-2.8.0-4 ------------------- Sat Oct 23 2004 Colin Walters 2.8.0-4 - Add patch for nomodem patch from Ronald to fix 2 soundcard case (136930) gnome-panel-2.8.1-4 ------------------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Mark McLoughlin - 2.8.1-4 - Fix use-correct-applications-uri patch to not crash on ia64. Fix from Dave Malcolm in #136908 gnome-session-2.8.0-6 --------------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Ray Strode 2.8.0-6 - Rebuild for devel branch * Tue Nov 02 2004 Ray Strode 2.8.0-5 - Convert Tamil translation to UTF8 (Patch from Lawrence Lim , bug 135351) gnome-system-monitor-2.8.0-1 ---------------------------- Wed Nov 03 2004 Christopher Aillon 2.8.0-1 - Update to 2.8.0 gnome-terminal-2.8.0-2 ---------------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Ray Strode 2.8.0-2 - rebuild for rawhide Thu Nov 04 2004 Ray Strode 2.8.0-1 - Update to 2.8.0 (bug #136034) gnome-user-docs-2.8.1-1 ----------------------- Mon Oct 25 2004 Christopher Aillon 2.8.1-1 - Update to 2.8.1 gnome-utils-1:2.8.0-7 --------------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti 1:2.8.0-7 - Use _host to locate update-gtk-immodule as gtk does. Fix #124484 Wed Oct 20 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 1:2.8.0-6 - Run ldconfig in %post and %postun gnopernicus-0.9.14-1 -------------------- Wed Oct 13 2004 Colin Walters 0.9.14-1 - New upstream 0.9.14 gnumeric-1:1.2.13-9 ------------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Caolan McNamara 1.2.13-9 - #rh137694# backport latex exporter fix - #rh137692# backport x64 excel fix Sat Oct 30 2004 Caolan McNamara 1.2.13-7 - #rh137565# Requires libgnomedb gnupg-1.2.6-2 ------------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Robert Scheck 1.2.6-2 - set LANG=C before running shm coprocessing build-time check (#129873) grep-2.5.1-35 ------------- Fri Nov 05 2004 Tim Waugh 2.5.1-35 - Fixes to egf-speedup patch: now it does not change any functionality, as intended. - GREP_NO_DFA now turns off the DFA engine, for performance testing. Thu Nov 04 2004 Tim Waugh 2.5.1-34 - More improvements to egf-speedup patch (bug #138076). Thu Nov 04 2004 Tim Waugh 2.5.1-33 - Small improvements to egf-speedup patch. gstreamer-0.8.7-5 ----------------- Tue Oct 26 2004 Colin Walters 0.8.7-5 - Do not override docdir (126860) - Remove datadir/gstreamer-0.8/doc from files list Wed Oct 20 2004 Colin Walters 0.8.7-4 - Add URI escaping patch from Ronald (136507) gstreamer-plugins-0.8.5-3 ------------------------- Wed Oct 27 2004 Colin Walters - 0.8.5-3 - Also remove mplex from sources Thu Oct 14 2004 Colin Walters - 0.8.5-2 - Drop BR on xmms-devel, libghttp-devel - Add BR on libmng-devel gthumb-2.6.0.1-1 ---------------- Sun Oct 31 2004 Christopher Aillon 2.6.0.1-1 - Update to 2.6.0.1 Thu Sep 30 2004 Christopher Aillon 2.4.2-3 - PreReq desktop-file-utils >= 0.9 Wed Sep 29 2004 Ray Strode 2.4.2-2 - Move gthumb.desktop to redhat-menus (#131726) - Require recent desktop-file-utils - Call update-desktop-database from %postun gtk2-2.4.13-11 -------------- Wed Nov 03 2004 Matthias Clasen - 2.4.13-11 - Fix an oversight in the previous fix. Wed Nov 03 2004 Matthias Clasen - 2.4.13-8 - Fix an oversight in the previous fix, really fix the crash. (#137922) Thu Oct 28 2004 Matthias Clasen - 2.4.13-5 - Include an upstream bugfix in the gtk+-2.4.9-treeview-activate.patch. This fixes a crasher bug (#137461) hal-0.4.0-8 ----------- Tue Oct 26 2004 David Zeuthen 0.4.0-8 - Forgot to add some diffs in hal-0.4.0-pcmcia-net-support.patch Tue Oct 26 2004 David Zeuthen 0.4.0-7 - Change default policy such that non-hotpluggable fixed disks are not added to the /etc/fstab file because a) ATARAID detection in hal is incomplete (e.g. RAID members from ATARAID controllers might be added to /etc/fstab); and b) default install wont corrupt multiboot systems on fixed drives (#137072) Tue Oct 26 2004 David Zeuthen 0.4.0-6 - Fix hotplug timeout handling (#136626) - Detect ATARAID devices and do not add /etc/fstab entry for them - Probe for ext3 before ntfs (#136966) - Use fstype 'auto' for optical drives instead of 'iso9660,udf' - Properly detect wireless ethernet devices (#136591) - Support 16-bit PCMCIA networking devices (by Dan Williams) (#136658) hal-cups-utils-0.5.2-7 ---------------------- Tue Oct 12 2004 John (J5) Palmieri - 0.5.2-7 - Add MatchDriver DBUS method call patch so we can check if the printer has a driver Wed Oct 06 2004 John (J5) Palmieri - 0.5.2-6 - Add Colin Walter's daemon patch - Add BuildRequires for glib - Add patch to take out gdk from configure.in - Restart cups-config-daemon in the post Mon Oct 04 2004 John (J5) Palmieri - Patch now calls killall -SIGHUP cupsd if pid file is wrong or does not exist. This is mainly for older cups versions which do not output a pid file. hotplug-3:2004_04_01-9 ---------------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Bill Nottingham 3:2004_04_01-9 - load sg module for appropriate devices (#137592) Sun Oct 31 2004 Florian La Roche - optimize away a call to "env" and one for "uname -r" (kernel 2.6 or newer only) for the default case iiimf-le-chinput-0.3-13 ----------------------- Sat Oct 30 2004 Yu Shao 0.3-13 - fix reopened bug 132612, update iiimf-le-chinput-preedit.patch Fri Oct 29 2004 Yu Shao 0.3-12 - fix bug 136980 building warnings im-sdk-1:12.1-6 --------------- Fri Nov 05 2004 Jens Petersen - 1:12.1-6 - add xiiimp.so-gcc-warnings.patch to fix some gcc warnings - add im-sdk-iiimgcf-warning.patch (Yu Shao) Fri Nov 05 2004 Akira TAGOH - iiimsf-fix-gcc-warnings.patch: applied to fix the gcc warnings. - iiimgcf-fix-gcc-warnings-r2020.patch: backported from svn to fix the gcc warnings. Thu Nov 04 2004 Akira TAGOH - xiiimp-fix-gcc-warnings.patch: separated from iiimxcf-fix-gcc-warnings.patch for sure. - htt_xbe-fix-gcc-warnings.patch: use this reworked patch instead of iiimxcf-fix-gcc-warnings.patch. this also contains a fix to start the threads properly. (#137959) initscripts-7.93.4-1 -------------------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Bill Nottingham 7.93.4-1 - fix some of the rhgb fsck code () - fix module blacklisting to not mismatch (#137755) Fri Oct 29 2004 Bill Nottingham 7.93.3-1 - speed up hardware init some ipsec-tools-0.3.3-3 ------------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Bill Nottingham 0.3.3-2 - don't use new 0.3.3 handling of stdin in setkey; it breaks the format (#138105) iputils-20020927-18 ------------------- Mon Oct 18 2004 Radek Vokal - ifenslave.c and README.bonding updated from kernel-2.6.8-1.521 (#136059) Mon Oct 11 2004 Radek Vokal - spec file updated, source fixed (#135193) jwhois-3.2.2-7 -------------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 3.2.2-7 - Fix double free (#137693) k3b-0:0.11.17-1 --------------- Tue Oct 05 2004 Harald Hoyer 0:0.11.17-1 - version 0.11.17 - revert the dao -> tao change - add the suid feature to every app automatically kdeartwork-3.3.1-3 ------------------ Tue Nov 02 2004 Than Ngo 3.3.1-3 - fix typo in configuration command. Mon Oct 18 2004 Than Ngo 3.3.1-2 - rebuilt Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 kdebase-6:3.3.1-6 ----------------- Sun Oct 31 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-6 - remove unneeded require on lm_sensors #137649 - enable devices-symbol - get rid of unneeded device desktop files Sun Oct 31 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-5 - CVS fixes Mon Oct 18 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-4 - fix a bug in keyboard layout kdegraphics-7:3.3.1-3 --------------------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Than Ngo 7:3.3.1-3 - rebuilt Thu Oct 28 2004 Than Ngo 7:3.3.1-2.1 - add patch from 3_3_BRANCH Fri Oct 15 2004 Than Ngo 7:3.3.1-2 - fix kfax to use system libtiff kdelibs-6:3.3.1-4 ----------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-4 - backport CVS patches, fix konqueror crash #134758 Fri Oct 29 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-3 - add some fixes from CVS Sat Oct 16 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-2 - rebuilt for rhel kdeutils-6:3.3.1-4 ------------------ Wed Oct 27 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-4 - fc4 rebuilt Wed Oct 27 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-3 - rhel rebuilt Wed Oct 27 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-2.1 - Fix translation issue bug #136437 koffice-4:1.3.4-2 ----------------- Sun Oct 31 2004 Than Ngo 4:1.3.4-2 - apply better pdf fix Wed Oct 27 2004 Than Ngo 4:1.3.4-1 - update to 1.3.4 krb5-1.3.5-1 ------------ Mon Nov 01 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 1.3.5-1 - fix segfault in telnet due to incorrect checking of gethostbyname_r result codes (#129059) Fri Oct 15 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai - remove rc4-hmac:norealm and rc4-hmac:onlyrealm from the default list of supported keytypes in kdc.conf -- they produce exactly the same keys as rc4-hmac:normal because rc4 string-to-key ignores salts - nuke kdcrotate -- there are better ways to balance the load on KDCs, and the SELinux policy for it would have been scary-looking - update to 1.3.5, mainly to include MITKRB5SA 2004-002 and 2004-003 libgda-1:1.0.4-4 ---------------- Sat Oct 30 2004 Caolan McNamara 1:1.0.4-4 - Use mysqlclient10 libgnome-2.8.0-3 ---------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Dan Walsh - 2.8.0-3 - Stat gnome_user_private_dir before doing chmod, firefox gets - blown up because of this in strict selinux policy. Mon Oct 18 2004 - 2.8.0-2 - change default browser to firefox Wed Sep 22 2004 Alexander Larsson - 2.8.0-1 - update to 2.8.0 libgnomeprintui22-2.8.0-2 ------------------------- Tue Oct 26 2004 Colin Walters - 2.8.0-2 - Add patch libgnomeprintui-2.8.0-selector-search.patch for interactively searching for a printer libpfm-3.0-3 ------------ Tue Oct 26 2004 Will Cohen - Correct ownership of files. librsvg2-2.8.1-2 ---------------- Thu Sep 23 2004 Matthias Clasen - 2.8.1-2 - Must use the same rpm macro for the host triplet as the gtk2 package, otherwise things can fall apart. (#137676) libselinux-1.18.1-4 ------------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.1-4 - More fixes from sgrubb, better syslog Thu Nov 04 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.1-3 - Have setsebool and togglesebool log changes to syslog Wed Nov 03 2004 Steve Grubb 1.18.1-2 - Add patch to make setsebool update bool on disk - Make togglesebool have a rollback capability in case it blows up inflight libsepol-1.2.1-1 ---------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Dan Walsh 1.2.1-1 - Update to latest from NSA libtabe-0.2.6-11 ---------------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Leon Ho - add ownership on /usr/X11R6/lib64/X11/xcin/tab/{big5,utf-8} Mon Nov 01 2004 Leon Ho - add BuildRequires: xorg-x11-devel libtool-1.5.10-1 ---------------- Tue Oct 26 2004 Daniel Reed 1.5.10-1 - update to the 1.5.10 bugfix release - obsoletes libtool-1.4-nonneg.patch - obsoletes libtool-1.5-libtool.m4-x86_64.patch - obsoletes libtool-1.4.2-multilib.patch - obsoletes libtool-1.4.2-demo.patch - obsoletes libtool-1.5-testfailure.patch libuser-0.52.6-1 ---------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 0.52.6-1 - Make error reporting more consistent, more verbose and always on stderr (partly #133861, original patch by Pawel Salek) - Mark strings previously blocked by string freeze for translation libwmf-0.2.8.3-6 ---------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Caolan McNamara 0.2.8.3-6 - #rh137878# Extra BuildRequires libxml2-2.6.15-1 ---------------- Wed Oct 27 2004 Daniel Veillard - upstream release 2.6.15 see http://xmlsoft.org/news.html Thu Jan 02 2003 Daniel Veillard - integrated drv_libxml2 xml.sax driver from St?phane Bidoul - provides the new XmlTextReader interfaces based on C# XML APIs Wed Oct 23 2002 Daniel Veillard - revamped the spec file, cleaned up some rpm building problems lockdev-1.0.1-4 --------------- Fri Oct 22 2004 Adrian Havill 1.0.1-4 - don't unlock files if pid still exists (#128104) mailx-8.1.1-37 -------------- Wed Nov 03 2004 Ivana Varekova - fix man #121781, fix display problem #77183 Wed Oct 27 2004 Ivana Varekova - fix manpage #63523 Wed Oct 20 2004 Jiri Ryska - fix #134837 man-pages-ja-20041015-1 ----------------------- Mon Oct 25 2004 Akira TAGOH - 20041015-1 - updates to 20041015. man-pages-ru-0.97-1 ------------------- Thu Oct 21 2004 Adrian Havill 0.97-1 - Russian translation project active again; newest update merged with working Makefile (#131659) memtest86+-1.27-1 ----------------- Tue Oct 26 2004 Warren Togami - 1.27-1 - 1.27 Mon Oct 25 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.26-3 - allow building on all x86 arches - pass appropriate compiler options to build on x86_64 as well (#136939) minicom-2.00.0-20 ----------------- Wed Oct 20 2004 Adrian Havill 2.00.0-20 - correct an off-by-one error array-store error (#110770) mkbootdisk-1.5.2-4 ------------------ Mon Nov 01 2004 Peter Vrabec - fix slight man page error (#85470) Mon Oct 25 2004 Peter Vrabec - fix problem with hangup (#112752) Thu Oct 21 2004 Peter Vrabec - fix clear /tmp (#136599) mod_auth_mysql-1:2.6.1-2 ------------------------ Mon Nov 01 2004 Joe Orton 1:2.6.1-2 - remove RPATH Fri Oct 29 2004 Joe Orton 2.6.1-1 - update to 2.6.1 - rebuild against mysqlclient10-devel - don't strip the module in %build mozilla-37:1.7.3-19 ------------------- Wed Oct 27 2004 Christopher Aillon 37:1.7.3-19 - Add upstream patch for s390(x) and re-enable them. (bmo #264326) Fri Oct 22 2004 Christopher Aillon 37:1.7.3-18 - Prevent inlining of stack direction detection (#135255) - Fix problem where default apps aren't showing up in the download dialog (#136261) mozplugger-1.6.2-2 ------------------ Fri Oct 29 2004 Than Ngo 1.6.2-2 - add missing Buildprereq on XFree86-devel #137564 mysql-4.1.7-3 ------------- Fri Oct 29 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-3 - Handle ldconfig more cleanly (put a file in /etc/ld.so.conf.d/). Thu Oct 28 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-2 - rebuild in devel branch Wed Oct 27 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-1 - Update to MySQL 4.1.x. nautilus-media-0.8.1-4 ---------------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Colin Walters 0.8.1-4 - Add patch to fix compiler warnings nc-1.10-23 ---------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Radek Vokal 1.10-23 - return value of help function fixed (#137785) Tue Sep 21 2004 Radek Vokal 1.10-22 - timeout option patch when SIGALRM blocked (#132973) Tue Jun 15 2004 Elliot Lee - rebuilt net-snmp-5.1.2-10 ----------------- Thu Oct 14 2004 Phil Knirsch 5.1.2-10 - Extended the libwrap and bsdcompat patches Mon Oct 11 2004 Phil Knirsch 5.1.2-9 - Droped obsolete lm-sensors patch and enabled lmSensors module - Marked several patches to be removed for 5.1.3 Wed Sep 29 2004 Warren Togami 5.1.2-8 - remove README* that do not apply to Linux - trim massive ChangeLog net-tools-1.60-39 ----------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Radek Vokal 1.60-39 - IBM patch for netstat -s returning negative values on 64bit arch (#144064) - broadcast calulated if only netmask provided (#60509) Tue Nov 02 2004 Radek Vokal 1.60-38 - fixed fail to assign the specified netmask before adress is assigned - patch by Malita, Florin netpbm-10.25-3 -------------- Mon Oct 25 2004 Jindrich Novy 10.25-3 - include man pages in troff format, thanks to Michal Jaegerman (#136959) - drop bmpbpp patch, fixed upstream - remove pcdovtoppm, ppmsvgalib, vidtoppm man pages because binaries for them are not present (#136471) nss_ldap-226-2 -------------- Thu Oct 28 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 226-2 - rebuild Thu Oct 28 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 226-1 - update to nss_ldap 226, pam_ldap 176 - rework pam_ldap dns autoconfig patch openssl096b-0.9.6b-23 --------------------- Wed Oct 27 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 0.9.6b-23 - rebuild Wed Oct 27 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 0.9.6b-22 - rebuild Wed Oct 27 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 0.9.6b-21 - rebuild openswan-2.1.5-3 ---------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Dan Walsh - 2.1.5-3 - Apply selinux patch pax-3.0-10 ---------- Thu Oct 21 2004 Peter Vrabec - fix PAXPATHLEN (#132857) php-4.3.9-4 ----------- Fri Oct 29 2004 Joe Orton 4.3.9-4 - rebuild aginst mysqlclient10-devel planner-0.12.1-2 ---------------- Fri Oct 22 2004 Dan Williams 0.12.1-2 - #rh136296# fix libxml2-devel BuildRequires policycoreutils-1.18.1-1 ------------------------ Wed Nov 03 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.1-1 - Upgrade to latest from NSA Wed Oct 27 2004 Steve Grubb 1.17.7-3 - Add code to sestatus to output the current policy from config file Fri Oct 22 2004 Dan Walsh 1.17.7-2 - Patch audit2allow to return self and no brackets if only one rule postfix-2:2.1.5-3 ----------------- Tue Oct 26 2004 Thomas Woerner 2:2.1.5-3 - fixed wrong path for cyrus-imapd (#137074) ppp-2.4.2-7 ----------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Thomas Woerner 2.4.2-7 - fixed out of bounds memory access, possible DOS Thu Oct 07 2004 David Woodhouse 2.4.2-6.3 - Fix use of 'demand' without explicit MTU/MRU with pppoatm Tue Oct 05 2004 David Woodhouse 2.4.2-6.2 - Link pppoatm plugin against libresolv. - Revert to linux-atm headers without the workaround for #127098 procps-3.2.3-6 -------------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Karel Zak 3.2.3-6 - update FAQ - update spec description - fix text in .noproc patch - fix segv fault if cpu number exceeding 38 (#137159) python-2.4-0.b2.1 ----------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Mihai Ibanescu 2.4-0.b2.1 - Updated to python 2.4b2 (and labeled it 2.4-0.b2.1 to avoid breaking rpm's version comparison) Thu Nov 04 2004 Mihai Ibanescu 2.3.4-13 - Fixed bug #138112 (python overflows stack buffer) - SF bug 105470 Tue Nov 02 2004 Mihai Ibanescu 2.3.4-12 - Fixed bugs #131439 #136023 #137863 (.pyc/.pyo files had the buildroot added) qt-1:3.3.3-10 ------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Than Ngo 1:3.3.3-10 - rebuilt Tue Nov 02 2004 Than Ngo 1:3.3.3-9 - remove unused patch - set XIMInputStyle=On The Spot - require xorg-x11-devel instead XFree86-devel Sun Oct 31 2004 Than Ngo 1:3.3.3-9 - require xorg-x11-devel instead XFree86-devel quagga-0:0.97.2-1 ----------------- Tue Oct 12 2004 Jay Fenlason 0.97.1-1 - New upstream version. redhat-artwork-0.119-1.2 ------------------------ Tue Nov 02 2004 Than Ngo 0.119-1.2 - devel build - * Tue Nov 02 2004 Than Ngo 0.119-1.1E - set XIMInputStyle=On The Spot Tue Nov 02 2004 Alexander Larsson - 0.118-1.2 - devel build Tue Nov 02 2004 Alexander Larsson - 0.118-1.1E - Updated to the new real media icons from diana redhat-menus-3.7-2 ------------------ Mon Nov 01 2004 - 3.7-2 - Gratuitous version bump from upstream - #rh74651# no mimetype entries for microsoft offic - #rh136731# wordperfect files (.wpd) should be associated with openoffice rpmdb-fedora-1:3-0.20041106 --------------------------- rsh-0.17-24 ----------- Mon Oct 18 2004 Radek Vokal 0.17-24 - The username and password for ~/.netrc are used (#135643) ruby-1.8.1-8 ------------ Fri Oct 29 2004 Akira TAGOH - 1.8.1-8 - added openssl-devel and db4-devel into BuildRequires (#137479) rwho-0.17-23 ------------ Fri Oct 22 2004 Phil Knirsch 0.17-23 - Fixed long standig bug with only 42 entries per host showing up (#27643) - Fixed some warnings of missing prototypes. s390utils-2:1.3.2-3 ------------------- Tue Oct 26 2004 Phil Knirsch 2:1.3.2-3 - Put binaries for system recovery in /sbin again. selinux-policy-strict-1.18.2-2 ------------------------------ Sat Nov 06 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.2-1 - Allow gpg to read/write user homedir files Sat Nov 06 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.2-1 - Merge with upstream - Allow users to read xdm pid files - Allow sysadm_t to communicate with xdm fifo file. Thu Nov 04 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.1-3 - ooffice is crashing because it needs to getattr on a dri device. selinux-policy-targeted-1.18.2-1 -------------------------------- Sat Nov 06 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.2-1 - Merge with upstream - Allow users to read xdm pid files - Allow sysadm_t to communicate with xdm fifo file. Thu Nov 04 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.1-3 - ooffice is crashing because it needs to getattr on a dri device. Tue Nov 02 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.1-2 - Fix protection on booleans. - Add can_kerberos sendmail-8.13.1-2.1 ------------------- Tue Oct 26 2004 Thomas Woerner 8.13.1-2.1 - added missing BuildRequires for groff (#134778) - added socketmap support (#131906) setools-1.5.1-1 --------------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Dan Walsh 1.5.1-1 - Update to latest from Upstream setup-2.5.37-2 -------------- Wed Oct 27 2004 Bill Nottingham 2.5.37-1 - fix inconsistency in profile.d handling (#136859, ) slocate-2.7-13 -------------- Wed Nov 03 2004 Thomas Woerner 2.7-13 - added /media to PRUNEPATHS sound-juicer-0.5.14-2 --------------------- Wed Oct 27 2004 Colin Walters 0.5.14-2 - Actually enable HAL - BR hal-devel squid-7:2.5.STABLE7-1 --------------------- Mon Oct 25 2004 Jay Fenlason 7:2.5.STABLE7-1 - new upstream version, with 3 upstream patches. Updated the -build and -config patches - Include patch from Ulrich Drepper to more intelligently close all file descriptors. subversion-1.1.1-2 ------------------ Mon Oct 25 2004 Joe Orton 1.1.1-2 - update to 1.1.1 - update -pie patch to address #134786 system-config-netboot-0.1.9-1 ----------------------------- Thu Nov 11 2004 Dan Walsh 0.1.9-1 - Fix pxeos to grab correct files, eliminate extra / - Bug #115652 Wed Oct 06 2004 Dan Walsh 0.1.8-1 - Update lang Fri Oct 01 2004 Dan Walsh 0.1.7-1 - Update languages system-config-securitylevel-1.4.17-1 ------------------------------------ Thu Nov 04 2004 Dan Walsh 1.4.17-1 - Call setsebool properly, change location of selinux stuff to /usr/sbin Thu Nov 04 2004 Dan Walsh 1.4.16-1 -Change nfs_home_dirs to use_nfs_home_dirs Wed Oct 20 2004 Dan Walsh 1.4.15-1 - Fix descriptions system-config-users-1.2.26-1 ---------------------------- Tue Nov 02 2004 Nils Philippsen - 1.2.26-1 - use libuser defaults for password aging (#130379, original patch by Dave Lehman) tetex-2.0.2-23 -------------- Mon Nov 01 2004 Jindrich Novy 2.0.2-23 - Fix xdviprint temp file creation from PID and replace it by mktemp (bug #137748) - Uncomment lines in xdviprint to fix bug #131915 - Fix badscript patch Mon Oct 25 2004 Jindrich Novy 2.0.2-22 - Add xpdf overflow security patch (CESA-2004-007) - Convert Japanese files Changes.txt, README.txt to unified encoding iso-2022-jp and rename them to *.jis to let it be apparent (bug #136276) thunderbird-0:0.8.0-10 ---------------------- Fri Oct 22 2004 Christopher Aillon 0.8.0-10 - Prevent inlining of stack direction detection (#135255) totem-0.99.19-2 --------------- Thu Oct 28 2004 Colin Walters - 0.99.19-2 - Add patch to remove removed items from package from help tvtime-0.9.15-1 --------------- Sun Oct 31 2004 Than Ngo 0.9.15-1 - update to 0.9.15 Fri Oct 29 2004 Than Ngo 0.9.14-2 - fix build problem on x86_64 Fri Oct 29 2004 Than Ngo 0.9.14-1 - update to 0.9.14 udev-042-1 ---------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Harald Hoyer - 042-1 - version 042 Thu Nov 04 2004 Harald Hoyer - 039-10 - speed improvement, scripts in rules are now executed only once, instead of four times Thu Nov 04 2004 Harald Hoyer - 039-9 - removed wrong SIG_IGN for SIGCHLD - moved ide media check to script to wait for the procfs unixODBC-2.2.10-1 ----------------- Thu Oct 28 2004 Tom Lane 2.2.10-1 - Update to unixODBC 2.2.10 up2date-4.3.52-3 ---------------- Thu Nov 04 2004 Adrian Likins 4.3.52 - translation updates Tue Nov 02 2004 Adrian Likins 4.3.51 - be more aggressive in setting our module path to be first - #136862, #137840 - remove unused imports of xmlrpclib Fri Oct 29 2004 Adrian Likins 4.3.50 - translation updates - fix some yumRepo bugs vte-0.11.11-10 -------------- Sun Oct 31 2004 Dan Williams 0.11.11-10 - Redraw background when unobscured visiblity event is received (workaround, patch from Jon Nettleton) #rh100420# - Mad speed zoom zoom (patch from Soren Sandmann) #rh132770# Sun Oct 31 2004 Ray Strode 0.11.11-9 - Stop using patch previous patch for now until certain unaddressed issues with it are resolved. Fri Oct 29 2004 Ray Strode 0.11.11-8 - Commit patch from Owen to avoid scrolling invalid regions. x3270-3.3.2.p1-7 ---------------- Thu Oct 21 2004 Karsten Hopp 3.3.2.p1-7 - enable builds on ppc(64) again (#136703) xpdf-1:3.00-12 -------------- Tue Oct 26 2004 Than Ngo 1:3.00-12 - bump release Tue Oct 26 2004 Than Ngo 1:3.00-11 - don't link against t1lib, use freetype2 for rendering xscreensaver-1:4.18-6 --------------------- Wed Nov 03 2004 Ray Strode 1:4.18-6 - rebuild for rawhide Wed Nov 03 2004 Ray Strode 1:4.18-5 - Don't allow screensavers access to desktop images by default (bug #126809) - Lock screen by default (bug #126809) From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Sat Nov 6 13:28:01 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:28:01 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041106142801.053db3e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. Build System wrote: [lots] May I conclude that the tree is open again, and pointing towards FC4test1? -- Funeral in the morning, IDE hacking in the afternoon and evening. -- Alan Cox, Diary December 3 2002 From thomas at apestaart.org Sat Nov 6 14:00:25 2004 From: thomas at apestaart.org (Thomas Vander Stichele) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:00:25 +0100 Subject: Does anyone else experience occasionnal xfs crashes? In-Reply-To: <20041104164747.27d5835d.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <20041104164747.27d5835d.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <1099729693.6108.12.camel@otto.amantes> On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 16:47, Matthias Saou wrote: > Hi, > > For a few months now, I've been experiencing random xfs (the font server, > not the filesystem ;-)) crashes on my laptop running FC Dev. As it was a > system installed with FC back in January, which had run a binary > distribution of XFree86 4.4RC (because the Radeon Mobility 9600 is not > supported by 4.3), then upgraded to FC2, FC Dev and had plenty of custom > fonts here and there, I didn't bother much to look for the problem. Me too. I've had this under FC2 ever since it came out. But I could never figure out a good way of reproducing it. For me, additional symptoms where that some gtk1 apps (take, say, xmms or vncviewer) suddenly were using a font like courier. At other times, I had the same problem as you - the whole machine locking up, and only logging in remotely and restarting xfs would help. It's quite maddening, since I never found a trigger for it allowing me to reproduce it. But you're not seeing ghosts. Thomas From thomas at apestaart.org Sat Nov 6 14:00:31 2004 From: thomas at apestaart.org (Thomas Vander Stichele) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:00:31 +0100 Subject: ogg streams and rhythmbox In-Reply-To: <1099551111l.3973l.6l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1099551111l.3973l.6l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1099730014.6108.17.camel@otto.amantes> Hi, On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 07:51, Michael A. Peters wrote: > Rhythmbox from upstream works well with mp3 shoutcast streams, which > are removed from Fedora Core due to mp3 support not being there. > > Apparantly CBC will be streaming with ogg - and I'm curious as to how > popular ogg streaming is, and wether or not some default internet radio > stations using ogg through shoutcast should be used for Rhythmbox - are > there enough to make it worth it? > > I know shoutcast2 builds fine on FC2 and FC3 and the gstreamer plugin > also does - I don't know that they are required for ogg streaming in > rhythmbox (they don't seam to be for mp3 streaming) but if they are, > they work and should be patent free. There are two things that could be done. From what you're saying you are mixing them up. a) playing ogg streams from the web: This is possible without the shoutcast plugin. Radios that are sending one continuous ogg stream (Ie, no chained oggs, one serial number for the whole stream) already work in RB afaik. A stream like this is generated by, for example, flumotion. However, streams that consist of a bunch of oggs strung together might have some issues, and those are being worked on this week. It's pretty hard for a framework that is generic to support chained oggs correctly. b) making an ogg stream yourself: It would be possible to have RhythmBox serve as a *client* for a streaming server. That's when the shoutcast plugin would be useful. > Do ogg shoutcast streams work in Rhythmbox as it is? > I think it is worth investigating just so that rhythmbox could be > distributed with Fedora Core 4 with working internet radio stations. In short - try it ! :) Thomas Dave/Dina : future TV today ! - http://www.davedina.org/ <-*- thomas (dot) apestaart (dot) org -*-> Another Love Song That is written Still nothing said <-*- thomas (at) apestaart (dot) org -*-> URGent, best radio on the net - 24/7 ! - http://urgent.fm/ From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Sat Nov 6 14:56:44 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:56:44 +0100 Subject: Mail gui config In-Reply-To: <1099742895.12117.325.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <20041030003519.60395.qmail@web80704.mail.yahoo.com> <4184ABA0.2050003@Utel.no> <4186F58D.7030406@mminternet.com> <200411060119.34371@-mr700> <1099742895.12117.325.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <1099753004.28074.26.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le samedi 06 novembre 2004 ? 13:08 +0100, Iago Rubio a ?crit : > On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 00:19, Doncho N. Gunchev wrote: > > On 2004-11-02 (Tuesday) 04:48, Z wrote: > > > I don't like sendmail myself, but postfix is pretty complex as well. > > Not that complex. I spent about a week to get sendmail working > > almost the way I wanted it to. With postfix I can make much more > > complicated things in a few hours (and it's not only me)... > > Because you know Postfix, and don't know sendmail. With m4 sendmail is > not so difficult to configure. When I first needed a MTA I spent a few hours banging my head on sendmail config because it was the default then. Then I saw the light and got postfix from powertools, and was done in half the time I had already spent on sendmail. I don't know how anyone can even suggest sendmail conf problems are due to people knowing postfix better, when sendmail was there first and was used by almost everyone once. > > I want to mention that postfix's security record is much better, > > Not true. > > Just look to the past two years. > The historical security record of sendmail is poor, but to compare it > with the security record of tools that does not even exists when those > security holes appeared is not fair. postfix has been there for six years. That's enough for a meaningful security record history. Even if you want to restrict yourself to the last years where sendmail started being half-decent security-wise there is no comparison (just go to CERT, search sendmail then postfix) > But well, what I'd like to ask is: What's wrong with current fedora's > MTA management ? FC uses sendmail as default, which means new users are exposed to the worst tool from an admin POW at least, which is not overly smart. > You can use Postfix, you can use sendmail, you can switch betwen them > ... What's the problem then ? > > Are you advocating to delete sendmail ?? People are advocating replacing sendmail-as-default with postfix-as- default. Which should not worry sendmail users, except the value proposition of sendmail might not be sufficient for people to keep using it in meaningful numbers once it(s no longer the default. Cheers, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Nov 6 15:21:52 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 10:21:52 -0500 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> Message-ID: <1099754512.3386.4.camel@binkley> On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 22:30 +0000, Fernando Morais wrote: > Hi everyone, > > for when is it scheduled to include a true package manager? > One that gives ther options to see all rpm's instaled, remove, install > new nes, and so on... > In the early stages of fedora, one of the test releases, before the FC > 1, came with a tool that does part of > what i said before, despite part of it's functions where disabled. But > it never was included before. Is there a reason for that? > > Because a grafical tool to do interface with yum woulld be great, so > some basic task could be done, like adding rpm's, removing, seeing all > the rpm's avaiable to install, and more. > And it could o a litle further, merge it with up2date and create only > one tool, that deals all the functions regarding the > managing of the rpm's, the detection of updates, and so on... > > Is there anything planned? There is a small group of people who have been discussing a lot of merging of code bases for FC4. Specifically: - s-c-p + the yum module code to use it as a graphical front end to access yum repositories. - repomd + mirrorlists possibly for anaconda I'd like to see both of these ready for FC4. -sv From mr700 at mr700.cjb.net Sat Nov 6 15:31:12 2004 From: mr700 at mr700.cjb.net (Doncho N. Gunchev) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:31:12 +0200 Subject: Mail gui config In-Reply-To: <1099742895.12117.325.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <20041030003519.60395.qmail@web80704.mail.yahoo.com> <200411060119.34371@-mr700> <1099742895.12117.325.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <200411061731.12565@-mr700> On 2004-11-06 (Saturday) 14:08, Iago Rubio wrote: > On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 00:19, Doncho N. Gunchev wrote: > > On 2004-11-02 (Tuesday) 04:48, Z wrote: > > > I don't like sendmail myself, but postfix is pretty complex as well. > > Not that complex. I spent about a week to get sendmail working > > almost the way I wanted it to. With postfix I can make much more > > complicated things in a few hours (and it's not only me)... > > Because you know Postfix, and don't know sendmail. With m4 sendmail is > not so difficult to configure. Read my other mail in the list - m4 goes away in sendmail X project: http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/sm-X/design-2004-09-29/main/main.html http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/sm-X/design-2004-09-29/main/node2.html#SECTION00231000000000000000 > > > I want to mention that postfix's security record is much better, > > Not true. > > Just look to the past two years. > > The historical security record of sendmail is poor, but to compare it > with the security record of tools that does not even exists when those > security holes appeared is not fair. > > Of course if I code tomorrow "foomail" will have a better security > record than Postfix. True, but here we do compare two projects that are not from yesterday. Qmail's has security guarantee http://cr.yp.to/qmail/guarantee.html and bad license. For postfix I don't know if such exists, but I don't remember security problems too (look at the changelogs of postfix and sendmail). > > > it is faster and eats less resources too > > Did you benchmarked this, or are those simply your intuitions ? > > I readed third party benchmarks of sendmail vs Postfix vs Qmail, and > Postfix had the worst results. > > I also readed benchmarks from Postfix advocates and Postfix had the best > results. You can find this benchmark in lots of Postfix sites, the same > benchmark I mean. True about the benchmarks, for me it works faster, but... > > But well, what I'd like to ask is: What's wrong with current fedora's > MTA management ? > > You can use Postfix, you can use sendmail, you can switch betwen them > ... What's the problem then ? > > Are you advocating to delete sendmail ?? > > Are you proposing any other MTA management scheme better than current > fedora's one ? Removing sendmail is not an option for me(read my other mail). The only thing I can dream of is to be able to not install fedora without sendmail at all, but I don't dream too much :) > > If you'll not do it, this thread is simply a waste of time. > -- > Iago Rubio > Don't get mad at me. I just think sendmail's configuration is quite cryptic and postfix's is much better... The second part of my email was "I want to mention", next time I will not. -- Regards, Doncho N. Gunchev Registered Linux User #291323 at counter.li.org GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/DA454F79 http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 684F 688B C508 C609 0371 5E0F A089 CB15 DA45 4F79 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sat Nov 6 15:32:50 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 16:32:50 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <20041106142801.053db3e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <20041106142801.053db3e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <1099755170.2787.0.camel@kyrre> l?r, 06.11.2004 kl. 14.28 skrev Ralf Ertzinger: > Hi. > > Build System wrote: > > [lots] > > May I conclude that the tree is open again, and pointing towards FC4test1? > > -- > Funeral in the morning, IDE hacking in the afternoon and evening. > -- Alan Cox, Diary December 3 2002 Yes. The shedule say FC3 will be released to mirrors today. From symbiont at berlios.de Sat Nov 6 15:36:44 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:36:44 +0800 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <1099754512.3386.4.camel@binkley> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <1099754512.3386.4.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <200411062336.44220.symbiont@berlios.de> On Saturday 06 November 2004 23:21, seth vidal wrote: > I'd like to see both of these ready for FC4. I'd also like to see a dist upgrade that works instead of burning CDs or going through lengthy howtos on how to upgrade from FC55 to FC56 because kernel 7.5 has some new whizbang module that requires modification of every config file in the system. Just as an example. Many comments on FC1 to FC2 were that "anaconda" just does a lot smarter on upgrades than yum/apt. So, maybe a bit more poking around an online anaconda update without reboot to floppy or some hacked grub boot image would be great. -- -jeff From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Nov 6 15:38:25 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 10:38:25 -0500 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <200411062336.44220.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <1099754512.3386.4.camel@binkley> <200411062336.44220.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <1099755505.3386.8.camel@binkley> > I'd also like to see a dist upgrade that works instead of burning CDs or > going through lengthy howtos on how to upgrade from FC55 to FC56 > because kernel 7.5 has some new whizbang module that requires > modification of every config file in the system. Just as an example. > > Many comments on FC1 to FC2 were that "anaconda" just does a lot smarter > on upgrades than yum/apt. So, maybe a bit more poking around an online > anaconda update without reboot to floppy or some hacked grub boot image > would be great. It's not that anaconda necessarily does 'smarter' things. It is that anaconda is running OUTSIDE of the system. So less things can go 'boom'. All of the items keeping you from upgrading from any release to the next via yum or apt or up2date have all been related to changes to the kernel. fc1->fc2 lvm + selinux fc2->fc3 udev + selinux not much yum or apt or up2date can do about that. -sv From symbiont at berlios.de Sat Nov 6 15:45:54 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:45:54 +0800 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <1099755505.3386.8.camel@binkley> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <200411062336.44220.symbiont@berlios.de> <1099755505.3386.8.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <200411062345.54341.symbiont@berlios.de> On Saturday 06 November 2004 23:38, seth vidal wrote: > not much yum or apt or up2date can do about that. So, maybe a hacked grub boot image could be part of an integrated online update solution. Would be nice to have it at the click of a button and then say "Reboot to begin Upgrade". -- -jeff From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Nov 6 15:58:42 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 10:58:42 -0500 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <200411062345.54341.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <200411062336.44220.symbiont@berlios.de> <1099755505.3386.8.camel@binkley> <200411062345.54341.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <1099756722.3386.10.camel@binkley> On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 23:45 +0800, Jeff Pitman wrote: > On Saturday 06 November 2004 23:38, seth vidal wrote: > > not much yum or apt or up2date can do about that. > > So, maybe a hacked grub boot image could be part of an integrated online > update solution. Would be nice to have it at the click of a button and > then say "Reboot to begin Upgrade". > Isn't that what anaconda does? It boots your system and upgrades it? -sv From mr700 at mr700.cjb.net Sat Nov 6 16:51:57 2004 From: mr700 at mr700.cjb.net (Doncho N. Gunchev) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 18:51:57 +0200 Subject: Mail gui config In-Reply-To: <200411061731.12565@-mr700> References: <20041030003519.60395.qmail@web80704.mail.yahoo.com> <1099742895.12117.325.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411061731.12565@-mr700> Message-ID: <200411061851.58258@-mr700> On 2004-11-06 (Saturday) 17:31, Doncho N. Gunchev wrote: .. > only thing I can dream of is to be able to not install fedora without > sendmail at all, but I don't dream too much :) ops... to install without sendmail, have postfix as default and/or be able to select sendmail/postfix/exim just like lilo/grub. -- Regards, Doncho N. Gunchev Registered Linux User #291323 at counter.li.org GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/DA454F79 http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 684F 688B C508 C609 0371 5E0F A089 CB15 DA45 4F79 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carlos.efr at mail.telepac.pt Sat Nov 6 16:58:33 2004 From: carlos.efr at mail.telepac.pt (Carlos Rodrigues) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 16:58:33 +0000 Subject: iptables "frontend" on FC Message-ID: <418D02B9.2020306@mail.telepac.pt> Hi! As we stand now, FC doesn't have a firewall configuration tool worthy of that name. There is system-config-securitylevel which is fine for a workstation or desktop machine, but for a server or gateway box there is no way to build a good firewall short of diving into iptables directly. There are a bunch of iptables frontends (GUI or otherwise) out there, but I would rather have something more high-level. So, my preference would go to something I have been using in my home gateway, and some servers at work, for some time now. That something is FireHOL (http://firehol.sourceforge.net). I think this would be a nice addition fo FC because is is not only a simple iptables frontend. It is a language to describe firewalls, which generates them using iptables rules. It is very straigthforward and powerful. The config script even accepts the use of bash constructs - FireHOL is itself bash based - which makes it a tool which "makes simple things simple and hard things possible". I'm not the author of FireHOL, so this isn't gratuitous publicity. It's just a great tool (which successfully passed my "first hours excitement") that would make a good addition to FC (and it's small, so no problems there). What do you people thing about this: good, bad, alternatives? Carlos Rodrigues From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 16:05:59 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:05:59 -0500 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <1099756722.3386.10.camel@binkley> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <200411062336.44220.symbiont@berlios.de> <1099755505.3386.8.camel@binkley> <200411062345.54341.symbiont@berlios.de> <1099756722.3386.10.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <604aa79104110608053ed0e5f4@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 10:58:42 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > Isn't that what anaconda does? It boots your system and upgrades it? I think he wants a cookie cutter solution, that creates the grub entry for him. Like say a package that installs the anaconda boot image and creates the grubentry for it, without having to play tricks like getting the isos and renaming the isolinux boot image and creating the grub entry by hand. -jef From jonathansavage at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 17:40:48 2004 From: jonathansavage at gmail.com (Jon Savage) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:40:48 -0800 Subject: Linux conceptual configuration problems In-Reply-To: References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> <1099559473.5922.39.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <604aa791041105103175cfbe09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ad7cea104110609402d253f81@mail.gmail.com> > Of course. > But currently no massive cluster and no tiny deployment provides a way > to apps integrate themselves automatically through their > configurations. They allways have to ask users to manualy edit > configuration files. IMHO assuming that adaquate discovery/testing has been done prior to deployment *users* at foocorp should never need to edit config files at all beyond desktop/shell preferences. There are GUIs available for just about all of these. Pretty much the same sort of tweaks users can make to their own profiles in Windows. Now if foocorp has been running windows w/ users having admin rights by default the transition might be more interesting since the concept of locking user accounts down will be err... new. Check out stateless linux. -- Bests, Jon From lfarkas at bppiac.hu Sat Nov 6 21:00:21 2004 From: lfarkas at bppiac.hu (Farkas Levente) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 22:00:21 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> Build System wrote: > mysql-4.1.7-3 > ------------- > Fri Oct 29 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-3 > - Handle ldconfig more cleanly (put a file in /etc/ld.so.conf.d/). > > Thu Oct 28 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-2 > - rebuild in devel branch > > Wed Oct 27 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-1 > - Update to MySQL 4.1.x. untill now everyone with with @redhat.com email address said that the reason of not including mysql in fc3 and rhel4 is license issue. noting changed! so those reason was just a for us:-((( -- Levente "Si vis pacem para bellum!" From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sat Nov 6 19:11:14 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 20:11:14 +0100 Subject: Linux conceptual configuration problems In-Reply-To: <2ad7cea104110609402d253f81@mail.gmail.com> References: <1099480260.13104.10.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411031556.27996.remco@rvt.com> <1099559473.5922.39.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <604aa791041105103175cfbe09@mail.gmail.com> <2ad7cea104110609402d253f81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1099768273.2787.106.camel@kyrre> l?r, 06.11.2004 kl. 18.40 skrev Jon Savage: > > Of course. > > But currently no massive cluster and no tiny deployment provides a way > > to apps integrate themselves automatically through their > > configurations. They allways have to ask users to manualy edit > > configuration files. > IMHO assuming that adaquate discovery/testing has been done prior to > deployment *users* at foocorp should never need to edit config files > at all beyond desktop/shell preferences. There are GUIs available for > just about all of these. Pretty much the same sort of tweaks users can > make to their own profiles in Windows. Now if foocorp has been running > windows w/ users having admin rights by default the transition might > be more interesting since the concept of locking user accounts down > will be err... new. > Check out stateless linux. > -- > Bests, > Jon If i am not completely wrong, you may use sudo to give users admin rigths on their personal desktop. If that is preferable, i think is up to each deployer... From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Nov 6 22:07:58 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 17:07:58 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> Message-ID: <1099778879.6240.3.camel@portnoy> On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 22:00 +0100, Farkas Levente wrote: > Build System wrote: > > mysql-4.1.7-3 > > ------------- > > Fri Oct 29 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-3 > > - Handle ldconfig more cleanly (put a file in /etc/ld.so.conf.d/). > > > > Thu Oct 28 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-2 > > - rebuild in devel branch > > > > Wed Oct 27 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-1 > > - Update to MySQL 4.1.x. > > untill now everyone with with @redhat.com email address said that the > reason of not including mysql in fc3 and rhel4 is license issue. noting > changed! so those reason was just a for us:-((( > No it wasn't. Quit with the useless and silly conspiracy theory. There are much better things to be paranoid about. I'm reasonably sure that red hat legal worked out the problems with the mysql licensing so that mysql could be included OR mysql4 will not be linked to php, thus avoiding the problem that was mentioned. And you'll note I'm not @redhat.com and I'm saying this, too. -sv From cmadams at hiwaay.net Sat Nov 6 21:49:03 2004 From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 15:49:03 -0600 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> Message-ID: <20041106214903.GA1241268@hiwaay.net> Once upon a time, Farkas Levente said: > untill now everyone with with @redhat.com email address said that the > reason of not including mysql in fc3 and rhel4 is license issue. noting > changed! so those reason was just a for us:-((( I can't parse your last sentence (I'll take it for a rant), but the reason was correct. If you look at the full rawhide report, you'll notice that the libmysqlclient from 3.23 (the last version under the LGPL) is now included as a stand alone package, and that several things that link against libmysqlclient have been modified to use that version of libmysqlclient instead of the version from mysql-4.1 (which is under the GPL). -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Sat Nov 6 22:04:56 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:04:56 +0100 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <20041106132202.A13076@xos037.xos.nl> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <1099743009.12117.329.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041106132202.A13076@xos037.xos.nl> Message-ID: <1099778696.19397.434.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 13:22, Jos Vos wrote: > On Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 01:10:09PM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > > > I don't think yum should merge with up2date. Yum bypasses up2date > > functionality right now and frankly I don't use up2date ever because > > it's still buggy (On my FC1 and FC2 systems). > > What are the bugs you encounter? Mostly hangs when downloading packages. > The only real problem I know of is > the zero-size overview in up2date due to the fact that yum's > header.info file does not include package sizes. I have solved this > for X/OS Linux ( adding a backward-compatible enhancement to yum-arch and some changes > to up2date, and now up2date and yum repositories seem to work fine. I don't know how it works in xoslinux, but in my fedora boxes I don't use it because it used to fail, and also because I'm happy with yum. > > I'd really like to interface the rhn applet with yum, or at least to > > make it configurable so you could launch your preferred update command - > > in my case `xterm -e yum update` :) > > What do you mean with "interface the rhn applet with yum"? Rhn-applet > works fine with yum repositories. I mean one "Launch Yum" button instead of the "Launch up2date" button on the rhn notification tool dialog :) > See > for my versions of yum, up2date, rhnlib and rhn-applet (all these > packages are originally the FC2 versions) for X/OS Linux 3 (see the > package's changelogs for a description of the changes). Will take a look at them, thanks. But from the http://xoslinux.org front page it seems you also had some issues with up2date :) ITOH to install those packages in my boxes is not a solution for me, as it will be overriden with fedora's ones on next update. -- Iago Rubio From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Sat Nov 6 22:05:09 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:05:09 +0100 Subject: Mail gui config In-Reply-To: <200411061731.12565@-mr700> References: <20041030003519.60395.qmail@web80704.mail.yahoo.com> <200411060119.34371@-mr700> <1099742895.12117.325.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <200411061731.12565@-mr700> Message-ID: <1099778708.19397.437.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 16:31, Doncho N. Gunchev wrote: > On 2004-11-06 (Saturday) 14:08, Iago Rubio wrote: > > On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 00:19, Doncho N. Gunchev wrote: [snip] > > > almost the way I wanted it to. With postfix I can make much more > > > complicated things in a few hours (and it's not only me)... > > > > Because you know Postfix, and don't know sendmail. With m4 sendmail is > > not so difficult to configure. > > Read my other mail in the list - m4 goes away in sendmail X project: > http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/sm-X/design-2004-09-29/main/main.html > http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/sm-X/design-2004-09-29/main/node2.html#SECTION00231000000000000000 To change it for a simpler configuration file format. > > > I want to mention that postfix's security record is much better, > > > > Not true. > > > > Just look to the past two years. > > > > The historical security record of sendmail is poor, but to compare it > > with the security record of tools that does not even exists when those > > security holes appeared is not fair. > > > > Of course if I code tomorrow "foomail" will have a better security > > record than Postfix. > > True, but here we do compare two projects that are not from yesterday. > Qmail's has security guarantee http://cr.yp.to/qmail/guarantee.html But have it's security record also, http://www.cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=qmail > and > bad license. For postfix I don't know if such exists, but I don't remember > security problems too (look at the changelogs of postfix and sendmail). I prefer to look at other sources to research for security problems, http://www.cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=postfix Take into account that programmers want to promote their software, and can say whatever they want to promote it. They have even their discussions when speaking about security of their programs http://cr.yp.to/qmail/venema.html [snip] > > But well, what I'd like to ask is: What's wrong with current fedora's > > MTA management ? > > > > You can use Postfix, you can use sendmail, you can switch betwen them > > ... What's the problem then ? > > > > Are you advocating to delete sendmail ?? > > > > Are you proposing any other MTA management scheme better than current > > fedora's one ? > > Removing sendmail is not an option for me(read my other mail). The > only thing I can dream of is to be able to not install fedora without > sendmail at all, but I don't dream too much :) You don't need to dream about it. You can do it right now. > > If you'll not do it, this thread is simply a waste of time. > Don't get mad at me. I don't want to drive you mad. Please remember I'm not a native english speaker, and what could look to you rough language from my side, is simply poor language. > I just think sendmail's configuration is > quite cryptic and postfix's is much better... Ok, let's check that point. For a user - not a system administrator - current sendmail configuration is safe, and he can send his mail with no need to touch it. For a sysadmin that wants to open a public mail server to Internet, he must know what tools to use, and how to configure those tools. If you don't know how to switch from the default sendmail, to your prefered MTA and configure it, you should not put a mail server facing the net. ITOH you mentioned Sendmail X will change it's configuration, that seems to be the biggest problem here. It'll change to a simpler one, so may be this problem will be gone shortly. > The second part of my > email was "I want to mention", next time I will not. I only pointed I did not agree with you, because I think current MTA management in fedora is really good. If don't think it's something to drive you out of the list. -- Iago Rubio From jos at xos.nl Sat Nov 6 22:31:36 2004 From: jos at xos.nl (Jos Vos) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:31:36 +0100 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <1099778696.19397.434.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net>; from iago.rubio@hispalinux.es on Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 11:04:56PM +0100 References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <1099743009.12117.329.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041106132202.A13076@xos037.xos.nl> <1099778696.19397.434.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <20041106233136.A15023@xos037.xos.nl> On Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 11:04:56PM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > > What are the bugs you encounter? > > Mostly hangs when downloading packages. Hmm... strange, not here (and as said, up2date/rhnlib are the FC2 versions, with only some features *added*). Of course, the base OS is different. > Will take a look at them, thanks. But from the http://xoslinux.org front > page it seems you also had some issues with up2date :) Well, that was exactly *one* letter, a typo I made myself when adding the "yumx" feature (yum with headerx.info files with sizes). B.t.w., I made this ugly hack because I couldn't wait for an elegant solution, I hope I can use the metadata format in future releases, but that didn't work well in up2date at that moment. -- -- Jos Vos -- X/OS Experts in Open Systems BV | Phone: +31 20 6938364 -- Amsterdam, The Netherlands | Fax: +31 20 6948204 From veguilla at hpcf.upr.edu Sat Nov 6 22:32:42 2004 From: veguilla at hpcf.upr.edu (Ricardo Veguilla) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 18:32:42 -0400 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <1099778696.19397.434.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <1099743009.12117.329.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041106132202.A13076@xos037.xos.nl> <1099778696.19397.434.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <1099780363.4374.15.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 23:04 +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 13:22, Jos Vos wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 01:10:09PM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > > > > > I don't think yum should merge with up2date. Yum bypasses up2date > > > functionality right now and frankly I don't use up2date ever because > > > it's still buggy (On my FC1 and FC2 systems). > > > > What are the bugs you encounter? > > Mostly hangs when downloading packages. Yep, it also happened to me, many times up2date was just unresponsive (i.e. it appeared to be hanged). > I don't know how it works in xoslinux, but in my fedora boxes I don't > use it because it used to fail, and also because I'm happy with yum. I don't know if or how up2date was improved post FC2 but I'm running rawhide and up2date has been very reliable. I was able to upgrade my system without problems with up2date during the early yum 2.1.x unstable periods. > > > I'd really like to interface the rhn applet with yum, or at least to > > > make it configurable so you could launch your preferred update command - > > > in my case `xterm -e yum update` :) > > > > What do you mean with "interface the rhn applet with yum"? Rhn-applet > > works fine with yum repositories. > > I mean one "Launch Yum" button instead of the "Launch up2date" button on > the rhn notification tool dialog :) > You can try this[1]: GYUM: Graphical User Interface for YUM http://fedoranews.org/tchung/gyum/ HOWTO build GYUM Alert Icon (yum-applet) [2] http://fedoranews.org/tchung/yum-applet/ I'm not sure, but I don't think it will work with the latest yum (2.1.x). [1] I did, and now I appreciate up2date even more. [2] This is a partial hacked version of the rhn-applet. IIRC, you can instll or use both (rhn-applet and yum-applet) at the same time. Regards, -- Ricardo Veguilla From mpeters at mac.com Sun Nov 7 05:17:45 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 05:17:45 +0000 Subject: iptables "frontend" on FC In-Reply-To: <418D02B9.2020306@mail.telepac.pt> (from carlos.efr@mail.telepac.pt on Sat Nov 6 08:58:33 2004) References: <418D02B9.2020306@mail.telepac.pt> Message-ID: <1099804665l.4014l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/06/2004 08:58:33 AM, Carlos Rodrigues wrote: > > What do you people thing about this: good, bad, alternatives? Not familiar with that tool. I use firestarter myself - which is available in Fedora Extras From byte at aeon.com.my Sun Nov 7 04:45:10 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:45:10 +1100 Subject: evolution and groupwise In-Reply-To: <1099687115.4780.2.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1099687115.4780.2.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <1099802711.3414.60.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 17:38 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > I have working packages of evolution for fedora 3. this works really ok > with Novell GroupWise 6.5. anyone would like to have this? Not that I've tried it, but don't we already ship Evolution in Core 3, with Novell GroupWise connectivity enabled? Ditto with Exchange stuff -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From byte at aeon.com.my Sun Nov 7 05:05:33 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 16:05:33 +1100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> Message-ID: <1099803933.3414.65.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 22:00 +0100, Farkas Levente wrote: > > mysql-4.1.7-3 > > ------------- > > Fri Oct 29 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-3 > > - Handle ldconfig more cleanly (put a file in /etc/ld.so.conf.d/). > > > > Thu Oct 28 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-2 > > - rebuild in devel branch > > > > Wed Oct 27 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-1 > > - Update to MySQL 4.1.x. > > untill now everyone with with @redhat.com email address said that the > reason of not including mysql in fc3 and rhel4 is license issue. noting > changed! so those reason was just a for us:-((( As Seth said, don't be silly with conspiracy theories. It was a mad rush before freeze date, and legal at red hat had to handle mysql's licensing, and the bottom line is, they did fix it. MySQL's licensing _did_ change Getting Tom to package it so late in the release cycle might've lead to breakages for FC3 mysql users, so from a release engineering perspective, this made all the sense. Wait for FC4 to come out And yes, I'm also not an @redhat.com (and all conspiracy theorists should stop whinging over @redhat.com's as well on list - it gets rather annoying, for both the onlookers and the @redhat's I'm sure) -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Sun Nov 7 09:36:38 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 10:36:38 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> Message-ID: <1099820197.4343.25.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 22:00, Farkas Levente wrote: [snip] > > Wed Oct 27 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-1 > > - Update to MySQL 4.1.x. > > untill now everyone with with @redhat.com email address said that the > reason of not including mysql in fc3 and rhel4 is license issue. noting > changed! so those reason was just a for us:-((( nonsense rant. Lots of thanks to the legal and tech guys at RH who finally fix this issue. I really need MySQL. Thanks again. > Levente "Si vis pacem para bellum!" -- Iago Rubio "sublata causa, tollitur effectus" From nandox7 at myrealbox.com Sun Nov 7 12:22:31 2004 From: nandox7 at myrealbox.com (Nando) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:22:31 +0000 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <1099780363.4374.15.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <1099743009.12117.329.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041106132202.A13076@xos037.xos.nl> <1099778696.19397.434.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <1099780363.4374.15.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> Message-ID: <418E1387.3070206@myrealbox.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From buildsys at redhat.com Sun Nov 7 12:48:45 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 07:48:45 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041107 changes Message-ID: <200411071248.iA7CmjQ03569@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: eog-2.8.1-1 ----------- Sat Nov 06 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti 2.8.1-1 - Update to 2.8.1 gnome-user-docs-2.8.1-2 ----------------------- Sat Nov 06 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti 2.8.1-2 - Remove the section about menu editing. Fix 134119 gnome-utils-1:2.8.1-1 --------------------- Sat Nov 06 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti 1:2.8.1-1 - Update to gnome-utils 2.8.1 - Update to zenity 2.8.1 - Update to gucharmap 1.4.2 gpdf-2.8.0-6 ------------ Sat Nov 06 2004 Marco Pesenti gritti 2.8.0-6 - Run update-desktop-database. Fix #131090 rpmdb-fedora-1:3-0.20041107 --------------------------- yelp-2.6.4-1 ------------ Sat Nov 06 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti 2.6.4-1 - Update to 2.6.4 From aani_avni at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 13:21:45 2004 From: aani_avni at yahoo.com (avni thacker) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 05:21:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: need some information Message-ID: <20041107132145.47887.qmail@web54005.mail.yahoo.com> I may sound stupid, but its important for me. I am doing my BE-IT and i m in 3rd year. I m very new to linux and you can say i know only 1% abt it. I have a good command over C/C++ but i want to do some real time programming. Can anyone guide me? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ufo at linux.net.mk Sun Nov 7 13:24:06 2004 From: ufo at linux.net.mk (Arangel Angov) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:24:06 +0100 Subject: need some information In-Reply-To: <20041107132145.47887.qmail@web54005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041107132145.47887.qmail@web54005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <418E21F6.8080906@linux.net.mk> avni thacker wrote: > I may sound stupid, but its important for me. I am doing my BE-IT and > i m in 3rd year. I m very new to linux and you can say i know only 1% > abt it. I have a good command over C/C++ but i want to do some real > time programming. Can anyone guide me? Got google? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sun Nov 7 13:03:41 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:03:41 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <1099820197.4343.25.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> <1099820197.4343.25.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <1099832621.2704.2.camel@kyrre> s?n, 07.11.2004 kl. 10.36 skrev Iago Rubio: > On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 22:00, Farkas Levente wrote: > [snip] > > > Wed Oct 27 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-1 > > > - Update to MySQL 4.1.x. > > > > untill now everyone with with @redhat.com email address said that the > > reason of not including mysql in fc3 and rhel4 is license issue. noting > > changed! so those reason was just a for us:-((( > > nonsense rant. > > Lots of thanks to the legal and tech guys at RH who finally fix this > issue. > > I really need MySQL. > > Thanks again. > Good job! Just out of curiosity: will it be installable from yum in fc3? > > Levente "Si vis pacem para bellum!" > -- > Iago Rubio "sublata causa, tollitur effectus" From wehope_be at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 14:57:53 2004 From: wehope_be at yahoo.com (Bill Hope) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 06:57:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: A true package manager. Message-ID: <20041107145753.60681.qmail@web50204.mail.yahoo.com> On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 23:04:56, Iago Rubio wrote: > On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 13:22, Jos Vos wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 01:10:09PM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > > > > > I don't think yum should merge with up2date. Yum bypasses up2date > > > functionality right now and frankly I don't use up2date ever because > > > it's still buggy (On my FC1 and FC2 systems). > > > > What are the bugs you encounter? > > Mostly hangs when downloading packages. Sorry to jump in here. This is to validate some of Iago's comments.. I have hangs when it's trying to get headers. If it hangs I restart it so it goes to a different site. Otherwise it will sit forever fetching package headers. If I get to downloading packages, I'm home free. It would be wonderful if there was a full-auto option. I'm new to this maillist. Been running Redhat/Fedora for a year and a half. Other Unix platforms for 15 years. I'm currently getting digests. I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty. Regards, Bill __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sun Nov 7 15:20:18 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 10:20:18 -0500 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <20041107145753.60681.qmail@web50204.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041107145753.60681.qmail@web50204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1099840818.6240.15.camel@portnoy> > It would be wonderful if there was a full-auto option. > > I'm new to this maillist. Been running Redhat/Fedora for a year and a > half. Other Unix platforms for 15 years. I'm currently getting digests. > > I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty. > I think this whole discussion would be better off on fedora-config-list as it is targeted at a configuration tool. -sv From symbiont at berlios.de Sun Nov 7 15:34:16 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 23:34:16 +0800 Subject: A true package manager. In-Reply-To: <604aa79104110608053ed0e5f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <005a01c4c387$0ff2fb00$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <1099756722.3386.10.camel@binkley> <604aa79104110608053ed0e5f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200411072334.16412.symbiont@berlios.de> On Sunday 07 November 2004 00:05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 10:58:42 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > Isn't that what anaconda does? It boots your system and upgrades > > it? > > I think he wants a cookie cutter solution, that creates the grub > entry for him. Like say a package that installs the anaconda boot > image and creates the grubentry for it, without having to play tricks > like getting the isos and renaming the isolinux boot image and > creating the grub entry by hand. Right. And, we avoid having to download 4 CDs or 5 or 6 or 8 ... as the Core bulks up it would be nice to have a workable solution for those that only want a subset of the Core's packages and are willing to do an online ananconda update but don't necessarily want to mess with HOWTOs that can actually be automated. -- -jeff From gauret at free.fr Sun Nov 7 19:10:07 2004 From: gauret at free.fr (Aurelien Bompard) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 20:10:07 +0100 Subject: iptables "frontend" on FC References: <418D02B9.2020306@mail.telepac.pt> Message-ID: Hi, As usual, try to get it to Fedora Extras first (fedora.us). As regards to bash-based iptables frontends, Fedora Extras already ship shorewall, which I use. Regards, Aur?lien -- http://gauret.free.fr ~~~~ Jabber : gauret at amessage.info "The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we come in: we're computer professionals. We cause accidents." -- Nathaniel Borenstein From ee21rh at surrey.ac.uk Sun Nov 7 19:22:09 2004 From: ee21rh at surrey.ac.uk (Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng)) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 19:22:09 -0000 Subject: Self Introduction : Richard Hughes Message-ID: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB600@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> Full Legal Name: Richard Phillip Hughes Country, City: UK, Surrey Profession: Undergraduate Placement Hardware/Software Engineer Company: BAE Systems Avionics Website: http://www.hughsie.com Email (personal): ee21rh at surrey.ac.uk Goals: - I want to see more packages that mean that hardware Just Works. Packages I want to see published: - atmel-firmware - ipw2100-firmware - other distributable firmware Historical qualifications: - I code in C, am a pretty good at assembly, and can write bash, perl, and lots of others - You should trust me because... Well, you can google me and see the other stuff (CIFS, Samba) that I've done Other skills: - Experienced Windows 2K admin - Been tinkering with Linux on a home network for about 6 years. GPG Fingerprint: pub 1024D/7BA3CDBB 2004-10-28 Richard Hughes Key fingerprint = 61A6 FDDD 368B 8463 B198 F239 02DF D018 7BA3 CDBB sub 1024g/6682E8EA 2004-10-28 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avibrazil at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 19:22:03 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 16:22:03 -0300 Subject: Introducing myself.... Message-ID: I'm planing to send RPMs to fedora.us, so I'm introducing myself following the guidelines at http://www.fedora.us/wiki/PackageSubmissionQAPolicy Name: Avi Alkalay At: Traveling all the time, but paying bills at S?o Paulo, Brazil Occupation: Senior SW & IT architect for Open Standards and Linux e-business projects Company: IBM, Linux Impact Team Goals in Fedora: Help Linux to be more user friendly, and providing high quality RPMs Historical qualifications: http://avi.alkalay.net/cv/ http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/TimePrecision-HOWTO/ http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HighQuality-Apps-HOWTO/ http://elektra.sourceforge.net/ http://musicman.sourceforge.net/ http://dot.kde.org/1093768930/ GPG (uploaded already, but not yet available at pgp.mit.edu): sampa:~/src$ gpg --fingerprint 772F7275 pub 1024D/772F7275 2004-11-07 Avi Alkalay Key fingerprint = B99C 0648 7394 706D 0EC2 F003 B1C0 12A0 772F 7275 uid [jpeg image of size 4247] sub 1024g/B80A2F5E 2004-11-07 Regards, Avi From pbruna at linuxcenterla.com Sun Nov 7 22:45:15 2004 From: pbruna at linuxcenterla.com (Patricio Bruna V.) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 19:45:15 -0300 Subject: evolution and groupwise In-Reply-To: <1099802711.3414.60.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1099687115.4780.2.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099802711.3414.60.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1099867515.4011.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> El dom, 07-11-2004 a las 15:45 +1100, Colin Charles escribi?: > On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 17:38 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > > I have working packages of evolution for fedora 3. this works really ok > > with Novell GroupWise 6.5. anyone would like to have this? > > Not that I've tried it, but don't we already ship Evolution in Core 3, > with Novell GroupWise connectivity enabled? Ditto with Exchange stuff > -- > Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my > http://www.bytebot.net/ > "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, > then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi > the evolution-data-server in FC3 dont work with groupwise, it has a bug. So i recompile it and evo too, now it works. -- Patricio Bruna http://www.linuxcenterla.com Ingeniero de Proyectos Canada # 239 Piso 5 Red Hat Certified Engineer Providencia, Santiago - CHILE Linux Center Latinoamerica Fono: +56 2 2745000, Fax : +56 22747075 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje est? firmada digitalmente URL: From abo at kth.se Sun Nov 7 23:11:25 2004 From: abo at kth.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 00:11:25 +0100 Subject: evolution and groupwise In-Reply-To: <1099867515.4011.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1099687115.4780.2.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099802711.3414.60.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> <1099867515.4011.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <1099869085.3560.15.camel@tudor.e.kth.se> s?n 2004-11-07 klockan 19:45 -0300 skrev Patricio Bruna V.: > the evolution-data-server in FC3 dont work with groupwise, it has a bug. > So i recompile it and evo too, now it works. Then report it at bugzilla.redhat.com. /abo From yusufg at outblaze.com Mon Nov 8 02:50:02 2004 From: yusufg at outblaze.com (Yusuf Goolamabbas) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:50:02 +0800 Subject: Firefox 1.0 (Official) and Gnome integration issues with FC3 Message-ID: <20041108025002.GC20961@outblaze.com> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=268314 bryner might take a fix for 1.0, the firefox packaged with FC3 doesn't exhibit this behaviour though. Some more info in this thread on the aviary list http://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/aviary/2004-November/000131.html -- Yusuf Goolamabbas yusufg at outblaze.com From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 8 05:02:40 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 00:02:40 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <1099778879.6240.3.camel@portnoy> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> <1099778879.6240.3.camel@portnoy> Message-ID: <20041108050240.GA16684@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> seth vidal (skvidal at phy.duke.edu) said: > No it wasn't. Quit with the useless and silly conspiracy theory. There > are much better things to be paranoid about. I'm reasonably sure that > red hat legal worked out the problems with the mysql licensing so that > mysql could be included OR mysql4 will not be linked to php, thus > avoiding the problem that was mentioned. In fact, it's the latter. There are two versions of MySQL libraries to link against - 4.x for GPL apps, and 3.x for other apps. Bill From wtogami at redhat.com Mon Nov 8 07:43:16 2004 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 21:43:16 -1000 Subject: Firefox 1.0 (Official) and Gnome integration issues with FC3 In-Reply-To: <20041108025002.GC20961@outblaze.com> References: <20041108025002.GC20961@outblaze.com> Message-ID: <418F2394.40401@redhat.com> Yusuf Goolamabbas wrote: > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=268314 > > bryner might take a fix for 1.0, the firefox packaged with FC3 doesn't > exhibit this behaviour though. > > Some more info in this thread on the aviary list > > http://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/aviary/2004-November/000131.html > Thank you for your concern, but please don't block upstream 1.0 over this. Fedora's firefox will always be maintained with Fedora specific polish to make sure it integrates with all functionality mentioned in the above URL. We will keep it reasonably updated following upstream releases with regular FC updates. A firefox and thunderbird update need to come soon anyway, because we need to enable PANGO rendering which was disabled by default in FC3, and it would be nice to use the 1.0 final codebase. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From buildsys at redhat.com Mon Nov 8 12:43:05 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:43:05 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041108 changes Message-ID: <200411081243.iA8Ch5w03038@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: dejagnu-1:1.4.4-3 ----------------- Mon Nov 08 2004 Jakub Jelinek 1:1.4.4-3 - add URL (#138280) gcc-3.4.3-1 ----------- Sun Nov 07 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.3-1 - update from gcc-3_4-branch - GCC 3.4.3 release - PRs 18004, bootstrap/15747, bootstrap/17684, c++/13560, c++/15172, c++/17132, c++/18020, c++/18093, c++/18140, libstdc++/16612, middle-end/18129, other/17783, other/18138, other/18186, rtl-optimization/17581, rtl-optimization/18084, target/17317 - with -D_GLIBCXX_FULLY_DYNAMIC_STRING, STL should now avoid _S_empty_rep_storage (#135268) - don't ICE when cc1 is called on a non-existent source file (Jim Wilson) - add %doc COPYING{,.LIB} Tue Nov 02 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.2-9 - allow enums with mode attribute (if mode is integral; PR c/18282) gcc4-4.0.0-0.10 --------------- Sun Nov 07 2004 Jakub Jelinek 4.0.0-0.10 - update from trunk - add %doc COPYING and COPYING.LIB gnome-python2-2.6.0-4 --------------------- Sun Nov 07 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.6.0-4 - rebuild against python 2.4 grep-2.5.1-36 ------------- Mon Nov 08 2004 Tim Waugh 2.5.1-36 - Automatically disable DFA when processing multibyte input. GREP_USE_DFA environment variable overrides. pygtk2-2.4.1-1 -------------- Sun Nov 07 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.4.1-1 - update to 2.4.1 pyorbit-2.0.1-2 --------------- Sun Nov 07 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.0.1-2 - rebuild for python 2.4 rhpl-0.149-1 ------------ Sun Nov 07 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0.149-1 - rebuild for python 2.4 rpmdb-fedora-1:3-0.20041108 --------------------------- From xose at wanadoo.es Mon Nov 8 17:14:00 2004 From: xose at wanadoo.es (Xose Vazquez Perez) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:14:00 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <20041108050240.GA16684@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> <1099778879.6240.3.camel@portnoy> <20041108050240.GA16684@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <418FA958.5030205@wanadoo.es> Bill Nottingham wrote: > In fact, it's the latter. There are two versions of MySQL libraries > to link against - 4.x for GPL apps, and 3.x for other apps. theoretically _any_ program included under MySQL "FLOSS License Exception v0.2" can be linked against 4.x, not _only_ GPL programs. [ http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/licensing/foss-exception.html ] -- TLOZ OOT: worse than drugs. From dmalcolm at redhat.com Mon Nov 8 17:18:22 2004 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:18:22 -0500 Subject: evolution and groupwise In-Reply-To: <1099867515.4011.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1099687115.4780.2.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1099802711.3414.60.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> <1099867515.4011.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <1099934302.3837.6.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Sun, 2004-11-07 at 19:45 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > El dom, 07-11-2004 a las 15:45 +1100, Colin Charles escribi?: > > On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 17:38 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > > > I have working packages of evolution for fedora 3. this works really ok > > > with Novell GroupWise 6.5. anyone would like to have this? > > > > Not that I've tried it, but don't we already ship Evolution in Core 3, > > with Novell GroupWise connectivity enabled? Ditto with Exchange stuff > > -- > > Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my > > http://www.bytebot.net/ > > "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, > > then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi > > > the evolution-data-server in FC3 dont work with groupwise, it has a bug. > So i recompile it and evo too, now it works. Please file a report about this in Bugzilla! Thanks > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list From jorton at redhat.com Mon Nov 8 17:24:09 2004 From: jorton at redhat.com (Joe Orton) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:24:09 +0000 Subject: MySQL 4.x status Message-ID: <20041108172409.GA25552@redhat.com> As some noticed, MySQL 4.1.7 is now in Raw Hide. The FLOSS exception is as yet not acceptable to our legal folks (that work is ongoing) so the LGPL-licensed 3.x client libraries and headers are still being included and any applications under GPL-incompatible licenses are being adjusted to use them. There is a known issue where 3.x clients can't connect to the 4.1.7 server unless --old-passwords is specified in my.cnf which I don't think is resolved in the 4.1.7 packages yet. Regards, joe From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 8 18:04:07 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:04:07 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <418FA958.5030205@wanadoo.es> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> <1099778879.6240.3.camel@portnoy> <20041108050240.GA16684@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <418FA958.5030205@wanadoo.es> Message-ID: <20041108180406.GA19999@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Xose Vazquez Perez (xose at wanadoo.es) said: > >In fact, it's the latter. There are two versions of MySQL libraries > >to link against - 4.x for GPL apps, and 3.x for other apps. > > theoretically _any_ program included under MySQL > "FLOSS License Exception v0.2" can be linked against 4.x, > not _only_ GPL programs. That was deemed not sufficient by the legal gurus here. Other legal gurus may have differing legal opinions. Bill From casimiro_barreto at uol.com.br Mon Nov 8 18:31:16 2004 From: casimiro_barreto at uol.com.br (Casimiro de Almeida Barreto) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:31:16 -0200 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <20041108180406.GA19999@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> <1099778879.6240.3.camel@portnoy> <20041108050240.GA16684@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <418FA958.5030205@wanadoo.es> <20041108180406.GA19999@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1099938686.4387.22.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> Too many lawyers leads to high score losses. First RH people got rid of almost all interesting multimedia libraries, so people had to find and download it from places that are not RH repositories... Now the same is happening to MySQL, other applications and even x11 true type fonts, while most other distros are not so restrictive about non GPL packages. Even when you are dealing with basic subjects - NTFS module is not compiled in the official distro, so we have do download kernel software (BTW 2.6.9-1.667 does not compile well with the /boot/config-2.6.9-1.667) and recompile the whole stuff - you have to fight with the fact that the lawyers at RH are GPL zealotes and this is anoying... Regards, Casimiro Em Seg, 2004-11-08 ?s 13:04 -0500, Bill Nottingham escreveu: > Xose Vazquez Perez (xose at wanadoo.es) said: > > >In fact, it's the latter. There are two versions of MySQL libraries > > >to link against - 4.x for GPL apps, and 3.x for other apps. > > > > theoretically _any_ program included under MySQL > > "FLOSS License Exception v0.2" can be linked against 4.x, > > not _only_ GPL programs. > > That was deemed not sufficient by the legal gurus here. Other legal > gurus may have differing legal opinions. > > Bill > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alan at redhat.com Mon Nov 8 18:48:01 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:48:01 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <1099938686.4387.22.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> <1099778879.6240.3.camel@portnoy> <20041108050240.GA16684@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <418FA958.5030205@wanadoo.es> <20041108180406.GA19999@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1099938686.4387.22.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> Message-ID: <20041108184801.GA29820@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 08, 2004 at 04:31:16PM -0200, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote: > First RH people got rid of almost all interesting multimedia libraries, > so people had to find and download it from places that are not RH Thats required by the American government and its broken patent system. Brazilians may be allowed lots of software, and to play DVD's they own but that isn't a right in the land of the fee.. > have to fight with the fact that the lawyers at RH are GPL zealotes and > this is anoying... No our lawyers merely believe in doing things according to the law, be that the GPL, BSD or even non-free licenses in RHEL extras. Alan From pbruna at linuxcenterla.com Mon Nov 8 18:58:53 2004 From: pbruna at linuxcenterla.com (Patricio Bruna V.) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:58:53 -0300 Subject: mirror Message-ID: <1099940333.4856.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> i know maybe this it's no a theme to talk here, but here it goes? how can i create a mirror from ayo, dag and etc? -- Patricio Bruna http://www.linuxcenterla.com Ingeniero de Proyectos Canada # 239 Piso 5 Red Hat Certified Engineer Providencia, Santiago - CHILE Linux Center Latinoamerica Fono: +56 2 2745000, Fax : +56 22747075 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje est? firmada digitalmente URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 19:02:35 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:02:35 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <1099938686.4387.22.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> <1099778879.6240.3.camel@portnoy> <20041108050240.GA16684@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <418FA958.5030205@wanadoo.es> <20041108180406.GA19999@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1099938686.4387.22.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> Message-ID: <604aa791041108110263768c9f@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:31:16 -0200, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote: > - you have to fight > with the fact that the lawyers at RH are GPL zealotes and this is anoying... You fail to comprehend the position Red Hat is in as a US software company, competing with other technology companies in a legal system that encourages costly litigation or cross-licensing over patent rights instead of proactive arbitration to prevent problems. Would it be less annoying to you if Red Hat was sued and was forced into a costly legal battle becuase they decided to disregard the legal advice of their legal team and knowingly included patent encumbered software? How does the community win in this case? Who wins if Red Hat can no longer support their developers because they are paying legal fees or damages due to patent infringement? The situation is absolutely annoying...but don't blame the victim. Legal issues are calculated risks, and no one outside of Red Hat can calculate the litigation risks that Red Hat faces as a business. If this is a problem for you and you are unable to accept this fact, please use another distribution. -jef From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Mon Nov 8 19:20:32 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:20:32 -0600 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <604aa791041108110263768c9f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b601c4c5c8$07adac90$4801a8c0@C515816A> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Spaleta > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 1:03 PM > To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core > Subject: Re: rawhide report: 20041106 changes > > On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:31:16 -0200, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto > wrote: > > - you have to fight > > with the fact that the lawyers at RH are GPL zealotes and this is > anoying... > > You fail to comprehend the position Red Hat is in as a US software > company, competing with other technology companies in a legal system > that encourages costly litigation or cross-licensing over patent > rights instead of proactive arbitration to prevent problems. Would it > be less annoying to you if Red Hat was sued and was forced into a > costly legal battle because they decided to disregard the legal advice > of their legal team and knowingly included patent encumbered software? > How does the community win in this case? Who wins if Red Hat can no > longer support their developers because they are paying legal fees or > damages due to patent infringement? > > The situation is absolutely annoying...but don't blame the victim. > Legal issues are calculated risks, and no one outside of Red Hat can > calculate the litigation risks that Red Hat faces as a business. If > this is a problem for you and you are unable to accept this fact, > please use another distribution. > > -jef here is my .02c. The litigation is not the problem. A software company or any company should strive to do the right thing. Don't implement things that are known to be faulty without properly notifying the public that this is faulty. For example General Motors put a vehicle on the roads that they knew would catch fire because of the design of the gas tanks. Instead of notifying the public they were faulty, it made a considered decision that it would be cheaper to go through the litigation process than to do the responsible thing and inform the public "we released a faulty vehicle". Hopefully, RH will always do the right thing and notify the public of the faults that are present in it's release and also respect the patent rights of another company/individual. And not take the position that it is cheaper to litigate the matter. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Nov 8 19:04:24 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:04:24 -0500 Subject: mirror In-Reply-To: <1099940333.4856.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1099940333.4856.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <1099940663.15004.30.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 13:58, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > i know maybe this it's no a theme to talk here, but here it goes? > how can i create a mirror from ayo, dag and etc? This is definitely the wrong list. Go ask on the ayo/dag, etc lists. freshrpms.net -sv From thomas at apestaart.org Mon Nov 8 19:30:20 2004 From: thomas at apestaart.org (Thomas Vander Stichele) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:30:20 +0100 Subject: new prerelease of mach for the brave testers Message-ID: <1099942220.15772.5.camel@otto.amantes> Hey, Rudi Chiarito kicked me off on some mach work with a patch that implemented some things necessary for mach to run on FC3. I've made a prerelease of that work which is up at http://thomas.apestaart.org/download/pkg/fedora-3-i386-fedora- stable/mach-0.4.6.1-0.fdr.0.20041108.200857.3/ While taking the good bits from that patch and trying it out on FC3 I ran into a slew of other issues as well. The most notable one was the fact that building an FC2 target root an an FC3 host triggered all sorts of dormant SELINUX calls in the FC2 packages and scripts. I created a library that fakes out selinux calls as proposed by Colin Walters. That works out quite well. The next hurdle is the dev rpm of FC2 checking /proc/mounts and deciding it won't install because there's a devfs mounted. I'm not yet sure how I should tackle that. I could go back to not mounting proc but that will give me lots of other errors. Or, I could start overriding calls like open, but that's pretty hackish. So I'm sending this mail to get some ideas from all of you, and hoping some people want to give this version a try on their new FC3 install (or older systems) so I can do a release this week. Thanks Thomas From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Mon Nov 8 19:32:11 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:32:11 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <00b601c4c5c8$07adac90$4801a8c0@C515816A> References: <00b601c4c5c8$07adac90$4801a8c0@C515816A> Message-ID: <1099942331.10821.13.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le lundi 08 novembre 2004 ? 13:20 -0600, Otto Haliburton a ?crit : > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- > > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Spaleta > > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 1:03 PM > > To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core > > Subject: Re: rawhide report: 20041106 changes > > The situation is absolutely annoying...but don't blame the victim. > > Legal issues are calculated risks, and no one outside of Red Hat can > > calculate the litigation risks that Red Hat faces as a business. If > > this is a problem for you and you are unable to accept this fact, > > please use another distribution. > > > > -jef > > here is my .02c. The litigation is not the problem. A software company or > any company should strive to do the right thing. And the right thing is to keep FC "pure" (I say this while contributing to a sister project jpackage which has to deal with murky licences) Keep dubious packages out of core. That's why RH had "extra" CD's before and we have fedora.us/livna.org now. The nice thing about this method is people know some apps are borderline, so usually extra apps have a short lifespan. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Nov 8 18:40:02 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:40:02 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <1099938686.4387.22.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> References: <200411061324.iA6DOsL19834@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <418D3B65.20505@bppiac.hu> <1099778879.6240.3.camel@portnoy> <20041108050240.GA16684@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <418FA958.5030205@wanadoo.es> <20041108180406.GA19999@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1099938686.4387.22.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> Message-ID: <1099939202.15004.28.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 13:31, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote: > Too many lawyers leads to high score losses. > > First RH people got rid of almost all interesting multimedia > libraries, so people had to find and download it from places that are > not RH repositories... Now the same is happening to MySQL, other > applications and even x11 true type fonts, while most other distros > are not so restrictive about non GPL packages. Even when you are > dealing with basic subjects - NTFS module is not compiled in the > official distro, so we have do download kernel software (BTW > 2.6.9-1.667 does not compile well with the /boot/config-2.6.9-1.667) > and recompile the whole stuff - you have to fight with the fact that > the lawyers at RH are GPL zealotes and this is anoying... Okay, Look, this is not a development discussion. If you'd like to start a screed about red hat's lawyers take it to fedora-list. But not on fedora-devel-list, okay? good. -sv From djm at mindrot.org Mon Nov 8 20:23:44 2004 From: djm at mindrot.org (Damien Miller) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:23:44 +1100 (EST) Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? Message-ID: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> It has just come to my notice that Redhat is planning to ship a forked version of OpenSSH. The change goes beyond the usual patches applied to RPMs in the build process: Redhat have built their own OpenSSH tarball and are using that in their source RPM instead of the official release distribution. If you are interested, have a look at the openssh-3.9p1-7.src.rpm from the Fedora development/ directory. This source tarball is modified from the official portable OpenSSH distribution. It does not have a digital signature, an independent download site or even a basic list of changes. From diffing this source against the official release, it appears that the only change is deletion of files related to the experimental ACSS cipher. It is unclear why Redhat has chosen to do this: the cipher is disabled by default and their own Cygwin product has shipped these same files for many months, as have many other Linux distributions. Nobody disputes Redhat's right to fork OpenSSH, but why does Redhat not make their desired changes through the standard RPM patching mechanism? By distributing their own OpenSSH tarballs instead of patching pristine sources, Redhat breaks the link of transparency, accountability and trust that their own RPM build model is supposed to provide. We are also curious as to the extent that the community was involved in this decision; OpenSSH is developed by volunteers and Fedora is at least ostensibly a community effort. The OpenSSH developers were not contacted and there does not appear to have been any discussion of the change on any public mailing list. Even the RPM Changelog entry "disable ACSS support" greatly understates the nature of the change. It appears that the community was not consulted at all and that this change was made unilaterally by Redhat, with no explanation. The OpenSSH developers have neither the time nor the desire to investigate the changes Redhat makes to OpenSSH under the cover of their modified source tarball. As such, we will be forced to disregard support requests from users of Redhat or Fedora systems. Security conscious users are advised to audit the Redhat changes themselves (for each RPM release) or build OpenSSH from the original sources. We consider it very disappointing that Redhat has decided to effectively fork OpenSSH without consulting the OpenSSH developers or their own community. It is not too late for Redhat to reconsider, or for the community to urge them to do so. Regards, Damien Miller From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Nov 8 20:26:50 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:26:50 -0500 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> Message-ID: <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 15:23, Damien Miller wrote: > It has just come to my notice that Redhat is planning to ship a > forked version of OpenSSH. The change goes beyond the usual > patches applied to RPMs in the build process: Redhat have built > their own OpenSSH tarball and are using that in their source RPM > instead of the official release distribution. If you are > interested, have a look at the openssh-3.9p1-7.src.rpm from the > Fedora development/ directory. > Do you find that a cross-posted missive to a set of lists like this is: 1. less or more inflammatory than a post to the openssh maintainer @redhat.com? 2. less or more productive than an entry in bugzilla about the details? Thanks -sv From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Mon Nov 8 20:58:24 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:58:24 -0600 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <1099939202.15004.28.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <00c101c4c5d5$b37f8040$4801a8c0@C515816A> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of seth vidal > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 12:40 PM > To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core > Subject: Re: rawhide report: 20041106 changes > > On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 13:31, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote: > > Too many lawyers leads to high score losses. > > > > First RH people got rid of almost all interesting multimedia > > libraries, so people had to find and download it from places that are > > not RH repositories... Now the same is happening to MySQL, other > > applications and even x11 true type fonts, while most other distros > > are not so restrictive about non GPL packages. Even when you are > > dealing with basic subjects - NTFS module is not compiled in the > > official distro, so we have do download kernel software (BTW > > 2.6.9-1.667 does not compile well with the /boot/config-2.6.9-1.667) > > and recompile the whole stuff - you have to fight with the fact that > > the lawyers at RH are GPL zealotes and this is anoying... > > Okay, Look, this is not a development discussion. If you'd like to start > a screed about red hat's lawyers take it to fedora-list. But not on > fedora-devel-list, okay? good. > > -sv > > it is a development issue, and a open source issue. I don't really know how RH's lawyers are an issue. But what goes in/out to fc distro is an for the devl list and the impact of patents on that so I'm sure where you are coming from Seth. From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 8 21:04:24 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:04:24 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <00c101c4c5d5$b37f8040$4801a8c0@C515816A> References: <1099939202.15004.28.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <00c101c4c5d5$b37f8040$4801a8c0@C515816A> Message-ID: <20041108210424.GB21660@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Otto Haliburton (ottohaliburton at comcast.net) said: > it is a development issue, and a open source issue. I don't really know how > RH's lawyers are an issue. But what goes in/out to fc distro is an for the > devl list and the impact of patents on that so I'm sure where you are coming > from Seth. Oddly enough, patents have nothing to do with the MySQL discussion. Bill From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Nov 8 21:05:51 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:05:51 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <20041108210424.GB21660@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1099939202.15004.28.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <00c101c4c5d5$b37f8040$4801a8c0@C515816A> <20041108210424.GB21660@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1099947951.15004.61.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 16:04, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Otto Haliburton (ottohaliburton at comcast.net) said: > > it is a development issue, and a open source issue. I don't really know how > > RH's lawyers are an issue. But what goes in/out to fc distro is an for the > > devl list and the impact of patents on that so I'm sure where you are coming > > from Seth. > > Oddly enough, patents have nothing to do with the MySQL discussion. Just for fun - I'd like to request a fedora-legal-list. A place where people can discuss, fruitlessly, the legal issues all they want and keep them the hell off of this list. Please? -sv From davej at redhat.com Mon Nov 8 21:07:29 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:07:29 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <1099947951.15004.61.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1099939202.15004.28.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <00c101c4c5d5$b37f8040$4801a8c0@C515816A> <20041108210424.GB21660@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1099947951.15004.61.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <20041108210729.GG10841@redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 08, 2004 at 04:05:51PM -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > Oddly enough, patents have nothing to do with the MySQL discussion. > > Just for fun - I'd like to request a fedora-legal-list. A place where > people can discuss, fruitlessly, the legal issues all they want and keep > them the hell off of this list. I admire your optimism, though I don't share it sadly. Dave From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Nov 8 21:10:19 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:10:19 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <20041108210729.GG10841@redhat.com> References: <1099939202.15004.28.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <00c101c4c5d5$b37f8040$4801a8c0@C515816A> <20041108210424.GB21660@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1099947951.15004.61.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <20041108210729.GG10841@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1099948218.15004.64.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 16:07, Dave Jones wrote: > On Mon, Nov 08, 2004 at 04:05:51PM -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > > Oddly enough, patents have nothing to do with the MySQL discussion. > > > > Just for fun - I'd like to request a fedora-legal-list. A place where > > people can discuss, fruitlessly, the legal issues all they want and keep > > them the hell off of this list. > > I admire your optimism, though I don't share it sadly. touch? -sv From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Mon Nov 8 21:13:30 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:13:30 -0600 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <20041108210729.GG10841@redhat.com> Message-ID: <00c801c4c5d7$cf4172f0$4801a8c0@C515816A> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Dave Jones > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 3:07 PM > To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core > Subject: Re: rawhide report: 20041106 changes > > On Mon, Nov 08, 2004 at 04:05:51PM -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > > Oddly enough, patents have nothing to do with the MySQL discussion. > > > > Just for fun - I'd like to request a fedora-legal-list. A place where > > people can discuss, fruitlessly, the legal issues all they want and > keep > > them the hell off of this list. > > I admire your optimism, though I don't share it sadly. > > Dave > Legal issues generally will waggle themselves into any discussion, but the thing is to keep them focused. So there is good and bad in the discussion, I just don't see the antagonism thing (my spelling is atrocious). The hostility and respect for whoever responds on the list. Tolerance is a virtue. From casimiro_barreto at uol.com.br Mon Nov 8 21:31:03 2004 From: casimiro_barreto at uol.com.br (Casimiro de Almeida Barreto) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:31:03 -0200 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <00c801c4c5d7$cf4172f0$4801a8c0@C515816A> References: <00c801c4c5d7$cf4172f0$4801a8c0@C515816A> Message-ID: <1099949463.3059.14.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> Em Seg, 2004-11-08 ?s 15:13 -0600, Otto Haliburton escreveu: (...) > Legal issues generally will waggle themselves into any discussion, but the > thing is to keep them focused. So there is good and bad in the discussion, > I just don't see the antagonism thing (my spelling is atrocious). The > hostility and respect for whoever responds on the list. Tolerance is a > virtue. > > In a development list, legal issues are important when we consider what is in and what is out a distribution. They're also important when we have to ponder things that are in but may be out in next distros... Just imagine that you develop tools using/for a programming environment that is present from the beggining of a distro and, at some point, it ceases to be distributed/supported despite the fact that the "new" license still grants the users the right of downloading and using it for non- profit purposes... I don't know US legal system and I don't know about US pattent and copyright laws, so you can blame me for not being american and not understanding US laws but the fact stands: what can be done to ensure developers that they won't have surprises in future... Regarding to software patents, in my point of view they are as absurd as pattenting the name of Cupua??... But this is not the place for discussing this. Regards, Casimiro -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pp at ee.oulu.fi Mon Nov 8 21:41:42 2004 From: pp at ee.oulu.fi (Pekka Pietikainen) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:41:42 +0200 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> Message-ID: <20041108214142.GA5561@ee.oulu.fi> On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 07:23:44AM +1100, Damien Miller wrote: > the only change is deletion of files related to the experimental > ACSS cipher. It is unclear why Redhat has chosen to do this: the > cipher is disabled by default and their own Cygwin product has > shipped these same files for many months, as have many other > Linux distributions. Of course, the readership might be more enlightened to know what ACSS is. "This library implements the Alleged Content Scrambling System. It is believed to be interoperable with CSS of the DVD Copy Control Association. ACSS is a stream cipher with a fixed key length of 40 bit (5 byte). ACSS consists of a key setup phase and the actual encryption or decryption phase." Apart from the potential legal issues (even if are just some litigious bastards suing people for fun/profit instead of real ones) surrounding said algorithms, isn't it OpenBSD policy (dunno about openssh) to not ship known broken crypto algorithms at all? -- Pekka Pietikainen From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Nov 8 21:16:07 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:16:07 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <00c801c4c5d7$cf4172f0$4801a8c0@C515816A> References: <00c801c4c5d7$cf4172f0$4801a8c0@C515816A> Message-ID: <1099948567.15004.66.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > > > Legal issues generally will waggle themselves into any discussion, but the > thing is to keep them focused. So there is good and bad in the discussion, > I just don't see the antagonism thing (my spelling is atrocious). The > hostility and respect for whoever responds on the list. Tolerance is a > virtue. The hostility comes from discussing the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. it gets old. If you have a question about something's legal status go look in the archives of the list BEFORE posting. -sv From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Mon Nov 8 22:07:27 2004 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:07:27 -0500 Subject: new prerelease of mach for the brave testers In-Reply-To: <1099942220.15772.5.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1099942220.15772.5.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <1099951645.25652.8.camel@Madison.badger.com> On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 14:30, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > The next hurdle is the dev rpm of FC2 checking /proc/mounts and deciding > it won't install because there's a devfs mounted. > > I'm not yet sure how I should tackle that. I could go back to not > mounting proc but that will give me lots of other errors. Or, I could > start overriding calls like open, but that's pretty hackish. I've been building with mach on a devfs enabled box for a while. On that box I'm forced to resort to some dirty hacks to get things to work but it boils down to mounting devfs (for FC3->FC2 that'll be udev instead) onto the buildroots /dev. Then rpm -ivh --justdb'ing the dev rpm onto the buildroot between doing a mach setup base and mach setup build. It's very ugly but it might be more workable from within mach itself. Then again, it doesn't give you a 100% true representation of what's in the dev package on FC2.... -Toshio -- _______S________U________B________L________I________M________E_______ t o s h i o + t i k i - l o u n g e . c o m GA->ME 1999 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Mon Nov 8 22:35:46 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:35:46 -0600 Subject: rawhide report: 20041106 changes In-Reply-To: <1099948567.15004.66.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <00da01c4c5e3$4d755640$4801a8c0@C515816A> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of seth vidal > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 3:16 PM > To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core > Subject: RE: rawhide report: 20041106 changes > > > > > > Legal issues generally will waggle themselves into any discussion, but > the > > thing is to keep them focused. So there is good and bad in the > discussion, > > I just don't see the antagonism thing (my spelling is atrocious). The > > hostility and respect for whoever responds on the list. Tolerance is a > > virtue. > > The hostility comes from discussing the same thing OVER AND OVER AND > OVER AND OVER again. > > it gets old. If you have a question about something's legal status go > look in the archives of the list BEFORE posting. > > -sv > > unfortunately/fortunately depending on your view point, this is a open forum and that is what happens on open forums, and issues come up and these issues are repetitious and that the way of life, we all will get over it, and it definitely, not going to be solved by hostility, if you don't respond then they will go the way of all threads, they will die. From nutello at sweetness.com Mon Nov 8 22:28:08 2004 From: nutello at sweetness.com (Rudi Chiarito) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:28:08 +0100 Subject: new prerelease of mach for the brave testers In-Reply-To: <1099942220.15772.5.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1099942220.15772.5.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <20041108222808.GA32105@server4.8080.it> On Mon, Nov 08, 2004 at 08:30:20PM +0100, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > I'm not yet sure how I should tackle that. I could go back to not > mounting proc but that will give me lots of other errors. Or, I could > start overriding calls like open, but that's pretty hackish. Maybe you could create just a new fake /proc, populated with files. I'm not sure what ld.so (or whatever other code does it) is looking for in /proc/self/attr/exec - the big stopper for me to get things running under FC3 - but maybe an empty placeholder file there will suffice? Time to do some more experimenting... Ok, an empty attr/exec file doesn't seem to be enough. The system also looks at attr/current. An empty file won't do, but putting a "root:system_r:unconfined_t" makes rpm scripts execute again. I'm sure someone has a better idea of what to put in "exec" and "current", unless there's a reason not to go for a fake /proc at all. Yes, I know, something like vserver would be the real solution. With this "trick", mount and unmounting /proc is no longer as vital in a FC3 chroot as it used to be; the lack of a real /proc might still break some RPM scripts, though. > So I'm sending this mail to get some ideas from all of you, and hoping > some people want to give this version a try on their new FC3 install (or > older systems) so I can do a release this week. If I clean them up and disable them by default, would you consider merging the bits that add support for yum? Some brave soul might be interested in testing those as well. Then there's the issue of RH/FC releases being hardcoded to i386 in configure.in, with no support for x86_64. -- Rudi From jos at xos.nl Mon Nov 8 23:50:57 2004 From: jos at xos.nl (Jos Vos) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:50:57 +0100 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org>; from djm@mindrot.org on Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 07:23:44AM +1100 References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> Message-ID: <20041109005057.A2455@xos037.xos.nl> On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 07:23:44AM +1100, Damien Miller wrote: > Nobody disputes Redhat's right to fork OpenSSH, but why does > Redhat not make their desired changes through the standard RPM > patching mechanism? By distributing their own OpenSSH tarballs > instead of patching pristine sources, Redhat breaks the link of > transparency, accountability and trust that their own RPM build > model is supposed to provide. They do the same for "xmms", for example, to eliminate MP3 support *and also not ship MP3 source code*, due to possible legal issues. Although I do not know this case, I guess a similar reason applies here: they explicitly do not want to ship certain source code included in the original tarball and just applying a patch in the spec file does not help for that, you need to modify the tarball. -- -- Jos Vos -- X/OS Experts in Open Systems BV | Phone: +31 20 6938364 -- Amsterdam, The Netherlands | Fax: +31 20 6948204 From pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to Tue Nov 9 00:04:30 2004 From: pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to (Paul Iadonisi) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:04:30 -0500 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> [Not cross-posting my response.] On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 15:26, seth vidal wrote: [snip] > Do you find that a cross-posted missive to a set of lists like this is: > 1. less or more inflammatory than a post to the openssh maintainer > @redhat.com? > 2. less or more productive than an entry in bugzilla about the details? And to top it off, this: === va:iadonisi:502) rpm -qlp openssh-3.9p1-7.src.rpm openssh-3.6.1p2-groups.patch openssh-3.8.1p1-krb5-config.patch openssh-3.8.1p1-skip-initial.patch openssh-3.8p1-gssapimitm.patch openssh-3.9p1-noacss.tar.gz openssh-3.9p1-redhat.patch openssh-nukeacss.sh openssh-selinux.patch openssh.spec === makes it pretty damn clear that it is *not* the tarball that comes from the official OpenSSH site due to the renaming of the tarball. AND the name of the new tarball (PLUS the 'nukeacss' patch) makes it pretty damn clear what the purpose is. I don't even need a clarification from Red Hat as it is obvious: if other distributions wish to put their businesses at risk of being slapped around by the MPAA and/or the DVDCCA, then have at it. Red Hat has every right (and responsibility, frankly) to eliminate this unnecessary algorithm from their version of openssh. Perhaps Red Hat could have discussed it with OpenSSH developers, but how many want to bet that the outcome would have been any different? And is the outcome at all bad? It's the removal of an algorithm that, as best as I can tell, is not needed and presents possible legal risk given the precedent already set in the 2600 case. Perhaps, as courts get a better clue about technology (which is happening, albeit slowly), it will be less of a problem. As far as support goes, it is obviously fully within the rights of the OpenSSH team to disown this so-called fork. Red Hat doesn't *support* Fedora Core, anyhow, and isn't likely to tell RHEL customers to 'go to the OpenSSH team' for OpenSSH support. So I'm with Seth, here. Even only a *cursory* look at the source rpm (which the OpenSSH team appears to have done, hence this heavily cross-posted message) easily reveals what Red Hat has done. Nothing clandestine about it at all. This should have been dealt with through the other channels Seth has mentioned instead of assuming the worst and blasting a message to four mailing list, including one (fedora-list) with many inexperienced users (that's why a lot of them are on the list...for help) who may end up quite frazzled by it. Makes one wonder if that was the intention. -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets From felipe_alfaro at linuxmail.org Tue Nov 9 00:13:42 2004 From: felipe_alfaro at linuxmail.org (Felipe Alfaro Solana) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:13:42 +0100 Subject: new prerelease of mach for the brave testers In-Reply-To: <1099942220.15772.5.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1099942220.15772.5.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <369CAA72-31E4-11D9-9ED8-000D9352858E@linuxmail.org> On Nov 8, 2004, at 20:30, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > Hey, > > Rudi Chiarito kicked me off on some mach work with a patch that > implemented some things necessary for mach to run on FC3. What the heck is "mach"? From pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to Tue Nov 9 00:43:10 2004 From: pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to (Paul Iadonisi) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:43:10 -0500 Subject: Brief rant (somewhat related to Damien Miller's recent post on OpenSSH) Message-ID: <1099960990.3804.39.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Folks, Red Hat has taken a lot of criticism, some of it deserved, regarding community involvement (or lack thereof) in the Fedora Project. Whatever comes out of opening up the process more to community participants (and I believe it will be at least passably -- hopefully more -- acceptable) in the end, please remember one important point. Though Red Hat has 'let go of the reins', so-to-speak, regarding support (i.e.: Fedora Core is not a supported product of Red Hat), there is one thing that they cannot give up responsibility for even if they wanted to. And that is legal liability. Whether or not to include something in the distribution that is legally questionably (mostly patents, but Content Scramble System related stuff is in a category all itself) absolutely, without a doubt, *must* *be* *a* *Red Hat* *internal* *decision*. Should I type that in all caps, too? No, I guess I'll refrain from yelling. ;-) There. I got that off my chest. Don't get me wrong...a lot *should* be expected of Red Hat if the company expects outside contributions to build a distribution which will ultimately be what gets drawn from to build RHEL and therefore make Red Hat money. However, expecting to be allowed to have a say in the legal choices Red Hat makes is asking for far too much, unless you are willing to provide your *own* indemnification to Red Hat. :-) -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Tue Nov 9 00:52:45 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:52:45 +0100 Subject: new prerelease of mach for the brave testers In-Reply-To: <369CAA72-31E4-11D9-9ED8-000D9352858E@linuxmail.org> References: <1099942220.15772.5.camel@otto.amantes> <369CAA72-31E4-11D9-9ED8-000D9352858E@linuxmail.org> Message-ID: <20041109015245.4851bcd1.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:13:42 +0100, Felipe Alfaro Solana wrote: > > Rudi Chiarito kicked me off on some mach work with a patch that > > implemented some things necessary for mach to run on FC3. > > What the heck is "mach"? http://thomas.apestaart.org/projects/mach/ -- Fedora Core release 2 (Tettnang) - Linux 2.6.9-1.2_FC2 loadavg: 1.02 1.28 1.70 From shiva at sewingwitch.com Tue Nov 9 01:23:45 2004 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:23:45 -0800 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: --On Monday, November 08, 2004 7:04 PM -0500 Paul Iadonisi wrote: > makes it pretty damn clear that it is *not* the tarball that comes > from the official OpenSSH site due to the renaming of the tarball. AND > the name of the new tarball (PLUS the 'nukeacss' patch) makes it pretty > damn clear what the purpose is. Has anyone outside the US created an RPM yet that reverses this and restores the original tarball, while otherwise keeping the rest of the RPM the same? BTW, no bugzilla appears to have been opened on this: From cra at WPI.EDU Tue Nov 9 01:32:40 2004 From: cra at WPI.EDU (Charles R. Anderson) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:32:40 -0500 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: <20041109013240.GE2173@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> On Mon, Nov 08, 2004 at 05:23:45PM -0800, Kenneth Porter wrote: > Has anyone outside the US created an RPM yet that reverses this and > restores the original tarball, while otherwise keeping the rest of the RPM > the same? Is it really worth it? What advantages does ACSS give? From pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to Tue Nov 9 01:33:13 2004 From: pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to (Paul Iadonisi) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:33:13 -0500 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: <1099963992.3804.59.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 20:23, Kenneth Porter wrote: [snip] > Has anyone outside the US created an RPM yet that reverses this and > restores the original tarball, while otherwise keeping the rest of the RPM > the same? Just curious: why in the world would even *want* this grossly insecure algorithm (humorously named "*Alleged* Content Scrambling System") in what is supposed to be a *secure* shell? Nevertheless, sounds like a job for livna.org. -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets From djm at mindrot.org Tue Nov 9 01:44:04 2004 From: djm at mindrot.org (Damien Miller) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:44:04 +1100 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <20041109005057.A2455@xos037.xos.nl> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <20041109005057.A2455@xos037.xos.nl> Message-ID: <419020E4.7020700@mindrot.org> Jos Vos wrote: > On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 07:23:44AM +1100, Damien Miller wrote: > > >>Nobody disputes Redhat's right to fork OpenSSH, but why does >>Redhat not make their desired changes through the standard RPM >>patching mechanism? By distributing their own OpenSSH tarballs >>instead of patching pristine sources, Redhat breaks the link of >>transparency, accountability and trust that their own RPM build >>model is supposed to provide. > > They do the same for "xmms", for example, to eliminate MP3 support > *and also not ship MP3 source code*, due to possible legal issues. Then they should also chop RC4 out of OpenSSL, OpenSSH and anything else that implements it because its legal status is near identical. -d From djm at mindrot.org Tue Nov 9 01:50:22 2004 From: djm at mindrot.org (Damien Miller) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:50:22 +1100 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> Paul Iadonisi wrote: > As far as support goes, it is obviously fully within the rights of the > OpenSSH team to disown this so-called fork. Red Hat doesn't *support* > Fedora Core, anyhow, and isn't likely to tell RHEL customers to 'go to > the OpenSSH team' for OpenSSH support. > So I'm with Seth, here. Even only a *cursory* look at the source rpm > (which the OpenSSH team appears to have done, hence this heavily > cross-posted message) easily reveals what Red Hat has done. Nothing > clandestine about it at all. This should have been dealt with through > the other channels Seth has mentioned instead of assuming the worst and > blasting a message to four mailing list, including one (fedora-list) > with many inexperienced users (that's why a lot of them are on the > list...for help) who may end up quite frazzled by it. Makes one wonder > if that was the intention. > I'm not suggesting that Redhat has made clandestine changes, any such changes aren't really clandestine when they can be revealed with "diff". I am saying that we don't have the time (or the desire) to go and check what changes RedHat make to their tarball for each release. Patches are easy: they are instantly readable and most of them don't change from release to release anyway. Given the choice of improving OpenSSH vs. chasing up hidden vendor changes motivated by a misguided legal department before I can determine whether a bug report is valid, I know which will always win. Some people have taken offence to my cross-posting, I don't understand why; my original message is of relevance to openssh users, Fedora users and Fedora developers - the very lists that I posted to. -d From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Tue Nov 9 02:05:43 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 03:05:43 +0100 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> Message-ID: <20041109030543.2a3b96b8.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Damien Miller wrote : > [...] Patches are > easy: they are instantly readable and most of them don't change from > release to release anyway. Unfortunately, when it comes to removing pieces of code you don't want to ship, not even in source form, doing so with a patch would simply put all the code in a second time... with minus signs in front. > Given the choice of improving OpenSSH vs. chasing up hidden vendor > changes motivated by a misguided legal department before I can determine > whether a bug report is valid, I know which will always win. Well, I second seth on this one, fedora-legal-list would be welcome ;-) More seriously, if we're talking about an algorithm that is the one used in DVDs, then not only are there possible software patent infringement in certain countries, but also more general legal concerns (DMCA anyone?). Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.649.radeon Load : 1.61 1.64 1.51 From powers.jason at jimmy.harvard.edu Tue Nov 9 02:14:24 2004 From: powers.jason at jimmy.harvard.edu (Jason Powers) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 21:14:24 -0500 Subject: Stateless Linux Message-ID: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> Been lucky enough to have a little time to try this out. We've been trying to get LTSP running here since about March, and it's not really flying beyond basic use. So when I saw this project I grabbed the files and set up a box, the configuration is not only easy compared to LTSP, but I learned a lot about that process by doing this (LTSP also requires TFTP, LDAP, DHCPD, etc). I have the most recent build as of now. I'm still working on getting my first snapshot to export, but it's a lot easier to check the work when you install phpldapadmin on the same system: you can see each item as it's created, and check to make sure it's all correct. Merely running the tests doesn't always catch typos and such. phpla is pretty easy to install, I untarred it into /var/www/html and renamed it phpla so I could just browse it. I've been using a lot of LAMP tools lately, sometimes just seeing the same info a different way helps a lot. Anyway I'm here to mention an oddity in the documentation for Stateless. On this page: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/stateless/sn-snapshot-setup.html it says to use the following command: stateless-snapshooter --new --protosystem DemoSystem since it's just a toy I'm actually using the name DemoSystem. However, the --new and --protosystem had to be replaced with -n -p before it would work. The error tells you very plainly that those are the available switches. for some reason --list works just fine, as does -l. I haven't made any changes to the server, it's as plain as you can get it fresh off the download mirror. Anyway broken flags are just a minor thing but I couldn't find an email to send this to so the devel list seemed as safe a place as any. On to the next step... jason From pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to Tue Nov 9 02:11:37 2004 From: pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to (Paul Iadonisi) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 21:11:37 -0500 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> Message-ID: <1099966297.3804.80.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 20:50, Damien Miller wrote: [snip] > I'm not suggesting that Redhat has made clandestine changes, any such > changes aren't really clandestine when they can be revealed with "diff". > I am saying that we don't have the time (or the desire) to go and check > what changes RedHat make to their tarball for each release. Well, it took me less time to determine what the change was, guided by the very name of the tarball, than it did to read your message. So you didn't have the time (that turned out to be minimal) to look at the simple change, but *did* have the time to post your missive which presumably took longer to write than it did to read (almost always the case). So you had time to lob charges at Red Hat, but no time to investigate those very charges. I see. As they say on /., RTFA, or in this case RTFS (source). > Patches are > easy: they are instantly readable and most of them don't change from > release to release anyway. And this wasn't far from that. You could have taken an only very slightly more detailed look to discover what had been done. (BTW, if you don't know *why* it was done, you are ignoring legal precedent here in the USA, Red Hat's home country.) You would have been able to determine pretty quickly if it was going to involve more time and made a decision at that point. Let me put it this way. If you are going to post such an controversial missive (and please don't say you didn't know it would be controversial ... if that's true, it was rather naive), you had a *responsibility* to investigate further. To do otherwise is to admit Darl McBride's legal strategy has merit. > Given the choice of improving OpenSSH vs. chasing up hidden vendor > changes motivated by a misguided legal department before I can determine > whether a bug report is valid, I know which will always win. I love it when people outside of a company imply that their legal advice is better than the company's own internal legal team by calling their legal team 'misguided'. I thoroughly respect developers' contributions, and the time demands on them. But that's no excuse for posting a relatively long message to public mailing lists before sending a brief "what's up with this" email off to the maintainer of Red Hat's openssh package. > Some people have taken offence to my cross-posting, I don't understand > why; my original message is of relevance to openssh users, Fedora users > and Fedora developers - the very lists that I posted to. See above. A quick (and much shorter, by the way) message to the package maintainer would have gotten you an answer without the need for asbestos underwear. And if I haven't said it enough, OpenSSH (and OpenBSD!) rocks! Thanks for what you guys have done. Thank goodness *someone* picked up the ball when the original ssh got less and less free. -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets From djm at mindrot.org Tue Nov 9 01:53:16 2004 From: djm at mindrot.org (Damien Miller) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:53:16 +1100 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: <4190230C.6090203@mindrot.org> Kenneth Porter wrote: > Has anyone outside the US created an RPM yet that reverses this and > restores the original tarball, while otherwise keeping the rest of the RPM > the same? The portable OpenSSH distribution has included a RPM spec file since 1999, and I have built binary packages for the current Fedora (nee Redhat) version for most OpenSSH releases over the last five years. OTOH that spec file doesn't contain any vendor patches. -d From alan at clueserver.org Tue Nov 9 01:37:14 2004 From: alan at clueserver.org (alan) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:37:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <1099963992.3804.59.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, Paul Iadonisi wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 20:23, Kenneth Porter wrote: > > [snip] > > > Has anyone outside the US created an RPM yet that reverses this and > > restores the original tarball, while otherwise keeping the rest of the RPM > > the same? > > Just curious: why in the world would even *want* this grossly insecure > algorithm (humorously named "*Alleged* Content Scrambling System") in > what is supposed to be a *secure* shell? The MPAA? Seriously, it is more the principle of the thing. We are starting to see more and more rpms with sources that have had parts hacked off to pander to some regulatory regime or another. It destroys the Purity of Essense of the rpm concept. > Nevertheless, sounds like a job for livna.org. Or the Cypherpunks(tm). -- Q: Why do programmers confuse Halloween and Christmas? A: Because OCT 31 == DEC 25. From mricon at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 03:09:18 2004 From: mricon at gmail.com (Konstantin Ryabitsev) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:09:18 -0500 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:50:22 +1100, Damien Miller wrote: > Given the choice of improving OpenSSH vs. chasing up hidden vendor > changes motivated by a misguided legal department before I can determine > whether a bug report is valid, I know which will always win. That's precisely the purpose of a legal department -- to win. Preferably before it ever gets to court. -- Konstantin Ryabitsev Zlotniks, INC From pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to Tue Nov 9 03:16:53 2004 From: pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to (Paul Iadonisi) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:16:53 -0500 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <419020E4.7020700@mindrot.org> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <20041109005057.A2455@xos037.xos.nl> <419020E4.7020700@mindrot.org> Message-ID: <1099970213.3804.97.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 20:44, Damien Miller wrote: > Jos Vos wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 07:23:44AM +1100, Damien Miller wrote: [snip] > > They do the same for "xmms", for example, to eliminate MP3 support > > *and also not ship MP3 source code*, due to possible legal issues. > > Then they should also chop RC4 out of OpenSSL, OpenSSH and anything else > that implements it because its legal status is near identical. Care to provide the details and perhaps post it to fedora-legal as well? I only ask, because my keen google skills have only turned up that RC4 is *not* patented by RSA, but only trademarked as well as a trade secret. There was apparently someone who posted RC4 equivalent code to Usenet.[1] RSA seemingly made no effort to squash it. Unlike patents, I believe you must endeavor to protect trade secrets and prevent and/or mitigate any exposure. RSA hasn't gone after anyone, nor would they likely have a case, except against the person who posted the code originally. And the code was not RSA copyrighted code, but what is usually called 'ARCFOUR' or 'Allegedly RC4' that is functionally equivalent. On the other hand, the MP3 situation is much clearer, (though still slightly murky). Thomson Multimedia's original website regarding the MP3 patents seemed to allow for free (GPL or otherwise) *decoders*, but only charge for *encoders*. That changed when Thomson changed their website (allegedly to 'clarify' the license, not change -- what bunk) that indicated that they did not want to allow for free decoders. Even though I'm not a lawyer, that's Big Red Flag(TM) in my book. So although the RC4 question isn't 100% clear to me, it is absolutely not nearly identical. The cases are quite different. [1] http://www.infosyssec.org/infosyssec/cryptalgorithms.html -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets From thomasz at hostmaster.org Tue Nov 9 03:29:08 2004 From: thomasz at hostmaster.org (Thomas Zehetbauer) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 04:29:08 +0100 Subject: MySQL 4.x status In-Reply-To: <20041108172409.GA25552@redhat.com> References: <20041108172409.GA25552@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1099970948.9579.0.camel@hostmaster.org> That is really great news, many thanks to you guys! Tom -- T h o m a s Z e h e t b a u e r ( TZ251 ) PGP encrypted mail preferred - KeyID 96FFCB89 finger thomasz at hostmaster.org for key Prohibiting cryptography to prevent terrorism is as meaningful as ...prohibiting mumming to prevent bank robbery! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 481 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mpeters at mac.com Tue Nov 9 05:09:13 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:09:13 +0000 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <1099970213.3804.97.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> (from pri.rhl3@iadonisi.to on Mon Nov 8 19:16:53 2004) References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <20041109005057.A2455@xos037.xos.nl> <419020E4.7020700@mindrot.org> <1099970213.3804.97.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: <1099976953l.3536l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/08/2004 07:16:53 PM, Paul Iadonisi wrote: > On the other hand, the MP3 situation is much clearer, (though still > slightly murky). Thomson Multimedia's original website regarding the > MP3 patents seemed to allow for free (GPL or otherwise) *decoders*, > but > only charge for *encoders*. That changed when Thomson changed their > website (allegedly to 'clarify' the license, not change -- what bunk) > that indicated that they did not want to allow for free decoders. My understanding was that they allowed for free decoders to end users, but not for commercial use or distribution - which is kind of odd, because an end user has to get it from somewhere - which implies a distributor. Maybe though they meant the source code could be distributed but not binaries? I don't know. It would *be nice* for Fedora to ship with both mp3 and aac support, decoding at least if not encoding. But hopefully that company that poured a lot of money into gstreamer will soon start selling the plugins and they can be gotten that way. Maybe we could ask Bill Gates out of the kindness of his heart to license mp3 playback for Fedora for us? ;) From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Tue Nov 9 09:54:04 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:54:04 +0100 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> Message-ID: <1099994043.12098.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 02:50, Damien Miller wrote: [snip] > Given the choice of improving OpenSSH vs. chasing up hidden vendor > changes motivated by a misguided legal department before I can determine > whether a bug report is valid, I know which will always win. With the new - 1 Oct - copyright law in spain you could face a 2 year term at state jail, just for posession of a tool capable to decode the ACSS algorithm. So the "misguided legal department" at RH have done a good move, at least to ship Fedora/RHEL in Spain. OpenSSH users should know they can face prision in some countries - well in Spain - if you install upstream OpenSSH. -- Iago Rubio From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 10:27:31 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:27:31 -0500 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <1099994043.12098.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> <1099994043.12098.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <20041109102731.GI11935@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 10:54:04AM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > With the new - 1 Oct - copyright law in spain you could face a 2 year > term at state jail, just for posession of a tool capable to decode the > ACSS algorithm. Remember to hand in your DVD player then 8) From thomas at apestaart.org Tue Nov 9 09:54:34 2004 From: thomas at apestaart.org (Thomas Vander Stichele) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:54:34 +0100 Subject: [Mach-devel] Re: new prerelease of mach for the brave testers In-Reply-To: <369CAA72-31E4-11D9-9ED8-000D9352858E@linuxmail.org> References: <1099942220.15772.5.camel@otto.amantes> <369CAA72-31E4-11D9-9ED8-000D9352858E@linuxmail.org> Message-ID: <1099994075.15772.13.camel@otto.amantes> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 01:13 +0100, Felipe Alfaro Solana wrote: > On Nov 8, 2004, at 20:30, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > > > Hey, > > > > Rudi Chiarito kicked me off on some mach work with a patch that > > implemented some things necessary for mach to run on FC3. > > What the heck is "mach"? "make a chroot". It creates a chroot and then you can install stuff in it, and do more stuff. Like, say, create clean packages, its primary use. http://thomas.apestaart.org/projects/mach From mcwimpy at gmx.at Tue Nov 9 11:10:30 2004 From: mcwimpy at gmx.at (Markus Nicolussi) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:10:30 +0100 (MET) Subject: PPC References: <20041109102731.GI11935@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <25628.1099998630@www62.gmx.net> Hello! Where can i informe myselfe about when will the PPC platform be officially supported by Fedora? Is there a official group behind the PPC devel tree on the FC server? How can i participate, if there is. The FC homepage doesn't tell me much... ciao, nico. -- Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail + 3 Top-Spielfilme auf DVD ++ Jetzt kostenlos testen http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail ++ From abo at kth.se Tue Nov 9 11:39:19 2004 From: abo at kth.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:39:19 +0100 Subject: PPC In-Reply-To: <25628.1099998630@www62.gmx.net> References: <20041109102731.GI11935@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <25628.1099998630@www62.gmx.net> Message-ID: <1100000358.23030.12.camel@dhcp31230.admin.kth.se> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 12:10, Markus Nicolussi wrote: > Hello! > > Where can i informe myselfe about You opened a mail with the subject "Re: RedHat forks OpenSSH?", clicked "Reply" and changed the subject to "PPC". Please don't do that. You mail will be delivered as a reply, even though it isn't. This looks bad in all modern mail readers, annoys many people and reduces the chance that you get a reply. Instead, just click on "New mail", "Compose" or whatever, and create a new message with recipient fedora-devel-list at redhat.com. /abo From thomas at apestaart.org Tue Nov 9 12:12:10 2004 From: thomas at apestaart.org (Thomas Vander Stichele) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:12:10 +0100 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions Message-ID: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> Hi, I upgraded to FC3 this weekend. I always try and go with the defaults on a new install, because when fielding bug reports for my various projects I prefer to make the defaults work first so bug reporters and I have a common ground to work with. Since the default SELINUX policy is "targeted" I chose this, bracing myself :) My first task was getting all my locally hosted websites to run. I have a few virtualhosts in my /home/thomas/www directory. When starting apache, the service script complains about these directories missing. Please note that I have a separate /home partition on hda6; I don't know if this affects any policy (yet). The system log file shows things like: audit(1100000312.370:0): avc: denied { search } for pid=12350 exe=/usr/sbin/httpd name=thomas dev=hda6 ino=557094 scontext=root:system_r:httpd_t tcontext=system_u:object_r:default_t tclass=dir I read through a few howto's, including http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc3/index.html (which has all of its internal links broken, can somebody please fix this, it's quite annoying !) and the writing policy howto mentioned herein: https://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php? docid=21959&group_id=21266 The latter has a paragraph about where policy is stored, and mentions Makefiles and other stuff in /etc/selinux. None of this is present on my FC3 system, so I'm assuming here that Red Hat has changed some things from the default SELinux which obliviate this step, but I have way of finding out how. Am I missing something ? Maybe there's a package I need to install ? I decided to learn about SELinux through the equivalent of poking at it with a large stick. I started adding some policy to /etc/selinux/targeted/contexts/files/file_contexts, adding a line reading: /home/thomas/www system_u:object_r:httpd_sys_content_t The former howto tells me I can run /sbin/fixfiles relabel /home/thomas/www but that command just gives me this: Usage: /sbin/fixfiles {-R rpmpackage[,rpmpackage...] [-l logfile ] [-o outputfile ] |check|restore|[-F] relabel} It would seem to me that what I issued was correct, both from the howto as well as the usage output. Clearly I'm missing something else here. So I tried this: restorecon -v -R /home/thomas/www and that did something. How do these two tools differ ? Why does the first not work as advertised. Using ls -alz /home/thomas I seem to get the impression this security context has been adopted. Still, apache refuses to see the directory. So I read some more of the howto. There's a binary called audit2allow that could help me generate rules. So I run it, restart apache a few times, but the binary doesn't print anything, not even with -v. Maybe I'm using it wrong, but there's no way of finding out if I am. At this point, I'm pretty much stuck. So if any kind soul wants to throw me a bone, please do. There are some things I find troubling and would want to offer suggestions for. - I am a fairly typical developer. I'd like to understand my system and to do so I read documentation, look at examples and try it out. Yet the barrier to entry to selinux is pretty high, which seems bad for something Red Hat wants to be finely integrated into the distribution. Maybe it would be a good idea to write a simple "getting started" guide explaining how to do two or three common tasks (I'd say "serving web pages from a nonstandard directory" would be one of them), making sure that EVERY STEP works. Right now the howto contains things that do not work as advertised, and links to docs that reference stuff that is not present, without a mention close by where to get it. - A lot of developers I know, including a bunch at Red Hat, *turn off SELINUX entirely*. IMO, something that gets pushed at heavily as this should be dogfooded by the development team at Red Hat completely, so they encounter firsthand what it means and how to fix basic issues. Knowledge spreads through increasingly growing circles starting from the center. If all RH developers, who have "easy" access to the SELINUX people at Red Hat, were to use it, they'd have basic knowledge about it. When the next circle of developers - outside of redhat, but having links to inside - gets hit, they do the same. And so on. It looks to me like the first circle is already completely broken, hence halting the dissemination of information and increasing the annoyance level outside of Red Hat. It won't be long before sysadmins and users ignore the default and turn it off entirely. - The documentation is not easy to find, out of date, and doesn't match the system. IMO, if FC3 gets released, the howto for something as basic as SELINUX should be uptodate and easy to find. As it is today: - http://fedora.redhat.com has one link to SELinux, which links to a project page that seems to be from before FC2 (!) and has no mention of documentation - The "docs" link below that links to the docs as a project, not to docs. Maybe not that bad, but confusing. - The docs link on the left links to docs, where SELINUX is listed, and the link mentions that it is for FC3 test 2 - When you click it, the docs say it is for test *3* - all internal links in that doc are broken - some commands in that doc do not work: fixfiles, audit2allow - the document is more of a FAQ than a Howto, a simple "getting started" would help a lot. I understand that FC3 is relatively fresh and that not everything can be in place from the start. I just want to get a good picture of where SELINUX is at and how to solve issues, so that I can try to fix stuff myself, and explain to other people. Otherwise I'll just have to turn off SELINUX myself, and recommend the same to others when questions are asked about it. Feel free to comment, both on the particular issue at hand as well as the general issue of entry barriers to selinux. Thomas Dave/Dina : future TV today ! - http://www.davedina.org/ <-*- thomas (dot) apestaart (dot) org -*-> I will play you like a shark And I'll clutch at your heart I'll come flying like a spark To enflame you <-*- thomas (at) apestaart (dot) org -*-> URGent, best radio on the net - 24/7 ! - http://urgent.fm/ From mjc at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 12:20:58 2004 From: mjc at redhat.com (Mark J Cox) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:20:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Summary of vulnerabilities with FC3 Message-ID: Near the release time of each new distribution the Red Hat security team go through all the security advisories for the past few years as well as issues that affected others but not Red Hat to ensure that the new distribution is up to date with security patches. We did this with FC3 a few weeks ago and corrected most of the issues we found that were unfixed. So this email is just really a FYI so we have the details stored for future reference. (The method is to collect a list of all possible vulnerabilities that could affect the FC3 package set, by CVE name. This list comes from all RHEL3 advisories to date, all FC1 and FC2 update notifications, our internal list of issues that didn't need fixing for whatever reason, the CVE named issues in Bugzilla, and finally looking at new packages in FC3 that were not previously in another release). Then for each CVE issue we look to see which upstream version (if any) the vulnerability is fixed in, and if FC3 contains that (or a better) upstream version. If not, we check to see if the FC3 package contains a backported fix for the issue. For this audit we trust changelog entries that say that a backported fix is included since these will have already been audited by us when the relevant FC2/1 or RHEL advisory came out. We also trust upstream announcements that state which versions have fixed particular vulnerabilities.) So this table gives the CVE name, the reason why FC3 isn't vulnerable (either it has an upstream version that isn't vulnerable, or it contains a backported security fix), and optional comments showing the package name, version it was fixed in, or method used to verify the details. Corrections or missed issues appreciated to secalert at redhat.com (although now FC3 is out we track all new issues in a different way, so we won't do new versions of this table). CAN-2003-0328 backport (epic, changelog) CAN-2003-0542 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.48) CAN-2003-0564 version (Mozilla, ICAT) CAN-2003-0594 version (Mozilla, ICAT) CAN-2003-0789 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.48) CAN-2003-0848 backport (slocate, changelog) CAN-2003-0853 version (coreutils, fixed 5.1.3) CAN-2003-0856 version (iproute) CAN-2003-0858 version (quagga, fixed 0.95) CAN-2003-0859 version (glibc, checked source) CAN-2003-0925 version (ethereal, fixed 0.9.16) CAN-2003-0926 version (ethereal, fixed 0.9.16) CAN-2003-0927 version (ethereal, fixed 0.9.16) CAN-2003-0935 version (Net-SNMP, fixed 5.0.9) CAN-2003-0962 version (rsync, fixed 2.5.7) CAN-2003-0963 version (lftp, fixed after 2.6.9) CAN-2003-0967 version (FreeRADIUS, fixed after 0.9.2) CAN-2003-0971 version (GnuPG, fixed after 1.0.2) CAN-2003-0973 version (mod_python, fixed 3.0.4) CAN-2003-0977 version (CVS, fixed 1.11.10) CAN-2003-0989 version (tcpdump, fixed 3.8.1) CAN-2003-0992 version (mailman, fixed 2.1.4) CAN-2003-1012 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.0) CAN-2003-1013 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.0) CAN-2003-1023 version (mc, 4.6.1) CAN-2004-0006 version (Gaim, fixed 0.76) CAN-2004-0007 version (Gaim, fixed 0.75) CAN-2004-0008 version (Gaim, fixed 0.75) CAN-2004-0055 version (tcpdump, fixed 3.8.2) CAN-2004-0057 version (tcpdump, fixed 3.8.2) CAN-2004-0079 backport (OpenSSL, changelog) CAN-2004-0081 VULNERABLE (openssl096b only, see bug 138365) CAN-2004-0083 version (XFree86) CAN-2004-0084 version (XFree86) CAN-2004-0097 version (PWLib, fixed 1.6.0) CAN-2004-0098 version (php) CAN-2004-0106 version (XFree86) CAN-2004-0107 version (sysstat, fixed after 4.0.7) CAN-2004-0110 version (libxml2, fixed 2.6.6) CAN-2004-0112 backport (OpenSSL, changelog) CAN-2004-0150 version (python, fixed 2.2.2) CAN-2004-0155 version (Racoon) CAN-2004-0164 version (Racoon) CAN-2004-0174 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.49) CAN-2004-0176 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.3) CAN-2004-0179 version (neon, fixed 0.24.5) CAN-2004-0179 version (openoffice.org) CAN-2004-0180 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.15) CAN-2004-0182 version (mailman, only affected RH packages) CAN-2004-0183 version (tcpdump, fixed 3.8.2) CAN-2004-0184 version (tcpdump, fixed 3.8.2) CAN-2004-0186 version (samba, not 3.0.2a) CAN-2004-0226 version (mc, fixed 4.6.0) CAN-2004-0231 version (mc, fixed 4.6.0) CAN-2004-0232 version (mc, fixed 4.6.0) CAN-2004-0233 backport (utempter, changelog) CAN-2004-0234 backport (lha, changelog) CAN-2004-0235 backport (lha, changelog) CAN-2004-0256 version (libtool, fixed 1.5.2) CAN-2004-0365 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.3) CAN-2004-0367 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.3) CAN-2004-0381 backport (mysql, changelog) CAN-2004-0388 backport (mysql, changelog) CAN-2004-0396 version (cvs, fixed 1.12.8) CAN-2004-0397 version (subversion, fixed 1.0.1) CAN-2004-0398 version (neon, fixed 0.24.6) CAN-2004-0403 version (racoon, fixed 20040408a) CAN-2004-0405 version (cvs, fixed 1.11) CAN-2004-0409 version (xchat, fixed after 2.0.8) CAN-2004-0411 version (kde, fixed 3.3*) CAN-2004-0412 version (mailman, fixed 2.1.5) CAN-2004-0413 version (subversion, fixed 1.0.5) CAN-2004-0414 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.17) CAN-2004-0416 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.17) CAN-2004-0417 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.17) CAN-2004-0418 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.17) CAN-2004-0419 version (xorg-x11) CAN-2004-0421 version (libpng, fixed 1.0.16) CAN-2004-0422 version (flim, fixed 1.14.3) CAN-2004-0426 version (rsync, fixed 2.6.1) CAN-2004-0457 backport (mysql, changelog) CAN-2004-0460 version (dhcp, fixed after 3.0.1rc13) CAN-2004-0461 version (dhcp, fixed after 3.0.1rc13) CAN-2004-0488 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.50) CAN-2004-0493 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.50) CAN-2004-0494 version (mc, fixed 4.6.1) CAN-2004-0500 version (gaim, fixed 0.82) CAN-2004-0504 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.4) CAN-2004-0505 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.4) CAN-2004-0506 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.4) CAN-2004-0507 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.4) CAN-2004-0519 version (squirrelmail, fixed 1.4.3a) CAN-2004-0520 version (squirrelmail, fixed 1.4.3a) CAN-2004-0521 version (squirrelmail, fixed 1.4.3a) CAN-2004-0523 version (krb5, fixed 1.3.4) CAN-2004-0541 version (squid) CAN-2004-0557 version (sox, fixed after 12.17.4) CAN-2004-0558 version (cups, fixed 1.1.21) CAN-2004-0594 version (php, fixed 4.3.8) CAN-2004-0595 version (php, fixed 4.3.8) CAN-2004-0597 version (libpng, fixed 1.2.6) CAN-2004-0597 version (mozilla, fixed 1.7.2) CAN-2004-0598 version (libpng, fixed 1.2.6) CAN-2004-0599 version (libpng, fixed 1.2.6) CAN-2004-0599 version (mozilla, fixed 1.7.2) CAN-2004-0600 version (samba, fixed 3.0.6) CAN-2004-0607 version (racoon, note RHSA-2004:308 has wrong text) CAN-2004-0633 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.5) CAN-2004-0634 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.5) CAN-2004-0635 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.5) CAN-2004-0642 backport (krb5, changelog) CAN-2004-0644 backport (krb5, changelog) CAN-2004-0645 version (abiword, fixed 2.0.9) CAN-2004-0686 version (samba, fixed 3.0.6) CAN-2004-0687 version (OpenMotif libxpm) CAN-2004-0687 VULNERABLE (lesstif libxpm, see bug 135080) CAN-2004-0688 version (OpenMotif libxpm) CAN-2004-0687 VULNERABLE (lesstif libxpm, see bug 135081) CAN-2004-0689 version (kde, fixed 3.3.0) CAN-2004-0691 version (gdk-pixbuf; qt, fixed 3.3.3) CAN-2004-0692 version (qt, fixed 3.3.3) CAN-2004-0693 version (qt, fixed 3.3.3) CAN-2004-0694 backport (lha, changelog) CAN-2004-0718 version (mozilla #246448, fixed 1.7) CAN-2004-0721 version (kde, fixed 3.3*) CAN-2004-0722 version (mozilla #236618, fixed 1.7) CAN-2004-0745 backport (lha, changelog) CAN-2004-0746 version (kde, fixed 3.3*) CAN-2004-0747 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.51) CAN-2004-0748 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.51) CAN-2004-0749 version (subversion, fixed 1.0.8) CAN-2004-0750 version (redhat-config-nfs, fixed 1.0.13) CAN-2004-0751 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.51) CAN-2004-0752 backport (openoffice.org, in ooo-build-cvs) CAN-2004-0753 backport (gtk2; gdk-pixbuf, changelog) CAN-2004-0753 version (gdk-pixbuf, fixed 0.22) CAN-2004-0754 version (gaim, fixed 0.82) CAN-2004-0755 version (ruby, fixed 1.8.1) CAN-2004-0757 version (mozilla #229374, fixed 1.7) CAN-2004-0758 version (mozilla, fixed 1.7.2) CAN-2004-0759 version (mozilla #241924, fixed 1.7) CAN-2004-0760 version (mozilla #250906, fixed 1.7.2) CAN-2004-0761 version (mozilla #240053, fixed 1.7) CAN-2004-0762 version (mozilla #162020, fixed 1.7) CAN-2004-0763 version (mozilla #253121, fixed 1.7.2) CAN-2004-0764 version (mozilla #244965, fixed 1.7) CAN-2004-0765 version (mozilla #234058, fixed 1.7) CAN-2004-0769 backport (lha, changelog) CAN-2004-0771 backport (lha, changelog) CAN-2004-0772 backport (krb5, changelog) CAN-2004-0778 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.17) CAN-2004-0782 backport (gtk2; gdk-pixbuf, patch) CAN-2004-0782 version (gtk;gdk-pixbuf, fixed 0.22) CAN-2004-0783 backport (gtk2; gdk-pixbuf, patch) CAN-2004-0783 version (gtk;gdk-pixbuf, fixed 0.22) CAN-2004-0784 version (gaim, fixed 0.82) CAN-2004-0785 version (gaim, fixed 0.82) CAN-2004-0786 backport (apr-util, changelog) CAN-2004-0788 backport (gtk2; gdk-pixbuf, patch) CAN-2004-0788 version (gtk;gdk-pixbuf, fixed 0.22) CAN-2004-0792 version (rsync) CAN-2004-0796 version (spamassassin, fixed 2.64) CAN-2004-0797 version (zlib) CAN-2004-0801 version (foomatic, fixed 3.0.2) CAN-2004-0803 backport (libtiff, changelog) CAN-2004-0803 version (kdegraphics, fixed by Update on 20041109) CAN-2004-0804 backport (libtiff, changelog) CAN-2004-0804 version (kdegraphics, fixed by Update on 20041109) CAN-2004-0806 version (cdrecord, fixed 2.0.1) CAN-2004-0807 version (samba, fixed 3.0.7) CAN-2004-0808 version (samba, fixed 3.0.7) CAN-2004-0809 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.51) CAN-2004-0811 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.52) CAN-2004-0817 backport (imlib, changelog) CAN-2004-0827 version (ImageMagick, fixed 6.0.6.2) CAN-2004-0829 (not a security issue) CAN-2004-0832 version (squid, fixed 2.5.7) CAN-2004-0835 backport (mysql, changelog) CAN-2004-0836 backport (mysql, changelog) CAN-2004-0837 backport (mysql, changelog) CAN-2003-0860 version (php, fixed 4.3.3) CAN-2003-0861 version (php, fixed 4.3.3) CAN-2004-0884 backport (cyrus-sasl, changelog) CAN-2004-0885 backport (httpd, changelog) CAN-2004-0886 backport (libtiff, changelog) CAN-2004-0886 version (kdegraphics, fixed by Update on 20041109) CAN-2004-0888 backport (xpdf, changelog) CAN-2004-0888 backport (cups, **since 1.1.22-0.rc1.8** FC3-3.3) CAN-2004-0888 backport (gpdf, **since 2.8.0-5** FC3-3.4) CAN-2004-0888 VULNERABLE (tetex, see bug 137476) CAN-2004-0889 backport (xpdf, changelog) CAN-2004-0891 backport (gaim, changelog) CAN-2004-0902 version (mozilla #133023, fixed 1.7.3) CAN-2004-0903 version (mozilla #133016, fixed 1.7.3) CAN-2004-0904 version (mozilla #133014, fixed 1.7.3) CAN-2004-0905 version (mozilla #133012, fixed 1.7.3) CAN-2004-0908 version (mozilla #133021, fixed 1.7.3) CAN-2004-0918 backport (squid, changelog) CAN-2004-0923 backport (cups, changelog) CAN-2004-0930 VULNERABLE (Samba, see bug 138326) CAN-2004-0938 version (freeradius, fixed 1.0.1) CAN-2004-0942 VULNERABLE (httpd, see bug 138065) CAN-2004-0957 backport (mysql, changelog) CAN-2004-0958 version (php, fixed 4.3.9) CAN-2004-0959 version (php, fixed 4.3.9) CAN-2004-0960 version (freeradius, fixed 1.0.1) CAN-2004-0961 version (freeradius, fixed 1.0.1) CAN-2004-0966 backport (gettext, **since 0.14.1-12** FC3-3.8) CAN-2004-0967 backport (ghostscript, changelog) CAN-2004-0968 backport (glibc, changelog) CAN-2004-0969 backport (groff, changelog) CAN-2004-0971 VULNERABLE (krb5, see bug 136307) CAN-2004-0972 VULNERABLE (lvm, see bug 136309) CAN-2004-0974 VULNERABLE (tetex, see bug 137966) CAN-2004-0975 VULNERABLE (openssl, see bug 136303) CAN-2004-0976 version (perl, since 5.8.4) CAN-2004-0977 backport (postgresql, **since 7.4.5-4** FC3-3.2) CAN-2004-0981 VULNERABLE (ImakeMagick, see bug 138385) CAN-2004-0983 VULNERABLE (Ruby, see bug 138366) CAN-2004-0989 backport (libxml2, **since 2.6.14-2** FC3-3.3) CAN-2004-0990 VULNERABLE (gd, see bug 137247) CVE-2002-1363 version (libpng, fixed 1.2.6) CVE-2003-0020 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.49) CVE-2003-0924 version (netpbm, fixed 9.26) CVE-2003-0988 version (kde, fixed 3.1.5) CVE-2004-0078 backport (mutt, changelog) CVE-2004-0082 version (samba, fixed 3.0.2) CVE-2004-0096 version (mod_python, fixed after 2.7.9) CVE-2004-0108 version (sysstat) CVE-2004-0111 version (gdk-pixbuf, fixed 0.20) CVE-2004-0113 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.49) CVE-2004-0189 version (squid, fixed 2.5stable5) CVE-2004-0191 version (Mozilla, fixed 1.4.2) From casimiro_barreto at uol.com.br Tue Nov 9 12:32:51 2004 From: casimiro_barreto at uol.com.br (Casimiro de Almeida Barreto) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:32:51 -0200 Subject: Problems with yum... Message-ID: <1100003571.18577.16.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> [root at 200-150-188-66 yum]# yum update Setting up Update Process Setting up Repo: development repomd.xml 100% |=========================| 1.1 kB 00:00 Reading repository metadata in from local files developmen: ################################################## 3558/3558 Resolving Dependencies --> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait. ---> Package jakarta-commons-logging.noarch 0:1.0.4-1jpp_2fc set to be updated ---> Package classpathx-jaf.noarch 0:1.0-2jpp_2fc set to be updated ---> Package classpathx-mail.noarch 0:1.0-2jpp_1fc set to be updated ---> Package xalan-j2.noarch 0:2.6.0-1jpp_2fc set to be updated ---> Package regexp.noarch 0:1.3-1jpp_3fc set to be updated ---> Package libgcc.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package gnome-python2.i386 0:2.6.0-4 set to be updated ---> Package gnome-python2-bonobo.i386 0:2.6.0-4 set to be updated ---> Package gcc-java.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package python.i386 0:2.4-0.b2.1 set to be updated ---> Package gcc-c++.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package cpp.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package grep.i386 0:2.5.1-36 set to be updated ---> Package libgcj.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package gcc-g77.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package libstdc++-devel.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package gcc-gnat.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package libf2c.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package libgcj-devel.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package gcc-objc.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package gnome-python2-gtkhtml2.i386 0:2.6.0-4 set to be updated ---> Package gcc.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package libstdc++.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package pyorbit.i386 0:2.0.1-2 set to be updated ---> Package libgnat.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package libobjc.i386 0:3.4.3-1 set to be updated ---> Package rhpl.i386 0:0.149-1 set to be updated ---> Package gnome-python2-canvas.i386 0:2.6.0-4 set to be updated ---> Package python-devel.i386 0:2.4-0.b2.1 set to be updated ---> Package dejagnu.noarch 1:1.4.4-3 set to be updated ---> Package pygtk2.i386 0:2.4.1-1 set to be updated ---> Package pygtk2-libglade.i386 0:2.4.1-1 set to be updated ---> Package pygtk2-devel.i386 0:2.4.1-1 set to be updated --> Running transaction check --> Processing Dependency: commons-logging>= 1.0.2-15 for package: commons-digester --> Processing Dependency: python-abi= 2.3 for package: system-config- printer --> Processing Dependency: classpath-inetlib for package: classpathx- mail --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-commons-logging-1.0.2.so for package: commons-modeler --> Processing Dependency: libpython2.3.so.1.0 for package: abiword --> Processing Dependency: python-abi= 2.3 for package: pyparted --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-commons-logging-1.0.2.so for package: commons-digester --> Processing Dependency: commons-logging>= 1.0.2-15 for package: commons-modeler --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-regexp-1.2.so for package: bcel --> Processing Dependency: /usr/lib/python2.3 for package: libxml2- python Importing Additional filelist information for depresolution developmen: ################################################## 3558/3558 --> Processing Dependency: libpython2.3.so.1.0 for package: koffice --> Processing Dependency: python-abi= 2.3 for package: alchemist --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-commons-logging-1.0.2.so for package: commons-beanutils --> Processing Dependency: commons-logging>= 1.0.2-15 for package: commons-beanutils --> Processing Dependency: jakarta-regexp>= 1.2-16 for package: bcel --> Restarting Dependency Resolution with new changes. --> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait. ---> Package classpath-inetlib.noarch 0:1.0-1jpp_1fc set to be installed --> Running transaction check --> Processing Dependency: commons-logging>= 1.0.2-15 for package: commons-digester --> Processing Dependency: python-abi= 2.3 for package: system-config- printer --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-commons-logging-1.0.2.so for package: commons-modeler --> Processing Dependency: /usr/lib/python2.3 for package: libxml2- python Importing Additional filelist information for depresolution --> Processing Dependency: libpython2.3.so.1.0 for package: abiword --> Processing Dependency: python-abi= 2.3 for package: pyparted --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-commons-logging-1.0.2.so for package: commons-digester --> Processing Dependency: jce for package: classpath-inetlib --> Processing Dependency: commons-logging>= 1.0.2-15 for package: commons-modeler --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-regexp-1.2.so for package: bcel --> Processing Dependency: java-sasl for package: classpath-inetlib --> Processing Dependency: libpython2.3.so.1.0 for package: koffice --> Processing Dependency: python-abi= 2.3 for package: alchemist --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-commons-logging-1.0.2.so for package: commons-beanutils --> Processing Dependency: commons-logging>= 1.0.2-15 for package: commons-beanutils --> Processing Dependency: jakarta-regexp>= 1.2-16 for package: bcel --> Restarting Dependency Resolution with new changes. --> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait. ---> Package gnu-crypto-jce-jdk1.4.noarch 0:2.0.1-1jpp_1fc set to be installed ---> Package gnu-crypto-sasl-jdk1.4.noarch 0:2.0.1-1jpp_1fc set to be installed --> Running transaction check --> Processing Dependency: commons-logging>= 1.0.2-15 for package: commons-digester --> Processing Dependency: python-abi= 2.3 for package: system-config- printer --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-commons-logging-1.0.2.so for package: commons-modeler --> Processing Dependency: libpython2.3.so.1.0 for package: abiword --> Processing Dependency: python-abi= 2.3 for package: pyparted --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-commons-logging-1.0.2.so for package: commons-digester --> Processing Dependency: commons-logging>= 1.0.2-15 for package: commons-modeler --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-regexp-1.2.so for package: bcel --> Processing Dependency: /usr/lib/python2.3 for package: libxml2- python Importing Additional filelist information for depresolution --> Processing Dependency: libpython2.3.so.1.0 for package: koffice --> Processing Dependency: python-abi= 2.3 for package: alchemist --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-commons-logging-1.0.2.so for package: commons-beanutils --> Processing Dependency: commons-logging>= 1.0.2-15 for package: commons-beanutils --> Processing Dependency: jakarta-regexp>= 1.2-16 for package: bcel --> Finished Dependency Resolution Error: missing dep: python-abi for pkg system-config-printer Error: missing dep: libpython2.3.so.1.0 for pkg abiword Error: missing dep: python-abi for pkg pyparted Error: missing dep: /usr/lib/python2.3 for pkg libxml2-python Error: missing dep: libpython2.3.so.1.0 for pkg koffice Error: missing dep: python-abi for pkg alchemist [root at 200-150-188-66 yum]# -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta ? uma parte de mensagem assinada digitalmente URL: From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Tue Nov 9 13:34:09 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:34:09 +0100 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <20041109102731.GI11935@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> <1099994043.12098.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041109102731.GI11935@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100007249.14030.120.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 11:27, Alan Cox wrote: > On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 10:54:04AM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > > With the new - 1 Oct - copyright law in spain you could face a 2 year > > term at state jail, just for posession of a tool capable to decode the > > ACSS algorithm. > > Remember to hand in your DVD player then 8) :) I know it's weird, and nobody - even judges - know how the hell this law will be applied, but well, it's how things are going in Spain right now. A lot of pressure on legislators was done by author's and editor's societies - mostly by SGAE - and, with those new laws, if someone post in a web site how to bypass DVD's protection using the OpenSSH included algorithm - even ripping it out of OpenSSH - SGAE can fill a criminal lawsuit against the site's owner, the tool's authors, the tool's distributors, and anyone with this tool in his hard drive. Just to draw a big picture about how copyright laws are hiting Spain, if you buy a blank CD you must pay a fee - almost equal to the CD's price - to be payed to singers affiliated to the SGAE, just for the shake you have with this CD the posibility of copying a music CD. I've just payed a fee of 1,50 euros to burn the fedore Core 3 release, that will be payed to *some* singers affiliated to the SGAE. Weird, isn't it ? With this I mean, all those legal issues regarding copyrights, patents and such, must be taken into account because laws are getting worst for freedom - at least in US and Europe - and those laws can forbide the distribution of the whole distro, and/or criminalize it's users. -- NOTE: For those interested, the SGAE - a society of authors and editors - have a lot of power here in Spain. Unfortunately they thing and publicly stated in mouth of it's president, that copyleft supporters are "pendejos electronicos", what could be freely translated to "electronic morons" or literaly as "electronic female pubic hair". You can reach their page using the spanish search term "ladrones" - burglars - in Google. As they have high influence on legislators, I expect things going worst here for Open Souce development regarding encoding/decoding algorithms, copyright issues and software patents. -- Iago Rubio From paul at frields.com Tue Nov 9 12:47:25 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 07:47:25 -0500 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <1100004445.18306.2.camel@berlin.east.gov> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 07:12, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: [...snip...] > I read through a few howto's, including > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc3/index.html > (which has all of its internal links broken, can somebody please fix > this, it's quite annoying !) ... [...snip...] Please file a bug in Bugzilla against component "fedora-docs," and note some of the specific links that are broken. Thank you! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCX - Editor, Fedora Documentation Project From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 13:38:11 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:38:11 -0500 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <1100007249.14030.120.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> <1099994043.12098.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041109102731.GI11935@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100007249.14030.120.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <20041109133811.GA9322@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 02:34:09PM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > I've just payed a fee of 1,50 euros to burn the fedore Core 3 release, > that will be payed to *some* singers affiliated to the SGAE. Weird, > isn't it ? Yes. Several EU countries do this and I have friends who mail order their blank CD's from non stupid EU member states in bulk (It is a single market....) in protest 8) From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Tue Nov 9 13:46:00 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:46:00 -0500 Subject: Problems with yum... In-Reply-To: <1100003571.18577.16.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> References: <1100003571.18577.16.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> Message-ID: <1100007960.3324.24.camel@binkley> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 10:32 -0200, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote: > > [root at 200-150-188-66 yum]# yum update > Setting up Update Process > Setting up Repo: development > repomd.xml 100% |=========================| 1.1 kB > 00:00 > Reading repository metadata in from local files > developmen: ################################################## > Importing Additional filelist information for depresolution > --> Processing Dependency: libpython2.3.so.1.0 for package: koffice > --> Processing Dependency: python-abi= 2.3 for package: alchemist > --> Processing Dependency: lib-org-apache-commons-logging-1.0.2.so for > package: commons-beanutils > --> Processing Dependency: commons-logging>= 1.0.2-15 for package: > commons-beanutils > --> Processing Dependency: jakarta-regexp>= 1.2-16 for package: bcel > --> Finished Dependency Resolution > Error: missing dep: python-abi for pkg system-config-printer > Error: missing dep: libpython2.3.so.1.0 for pkg abiword > Error: missing dep: python-abi for pkg pyparted > Error: missing dep: /usr/lib/python2.3 for pkg libxml2-python > Error: missing dep: libpython2.3.so.1.0 for pkg koffice > Error: missing dep: python-abi for pkg alchemist It's not a yum problem. you're using rawhide and it currently has broken deps. -sv From tiemann at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 13:56:39 2004 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:56:39 -0500 Subject: Summary of vulnerabilities with FC3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100008599.3453.3.camel@dhcp63-200.rdu.redhat.com> Great message--thanks for sending! M On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 07:20, Mark J Cox wrote: > Near the release time of each new distribution the Red Hat security team > go through all the security advisories for the past few years as well as > issues that affected others but not Red Hat to ensure that the new > distribution is up to date with security patches. We did this with FC3 a > few weeks ago and corrected most of the issues we found that were unfixed. > So this email is just really a FYI so we have the details stored for > future reference. > > (The method is to collect a list of all possible vulnerabilities that > could affect the FC3 package set, by CVE name. This list comes from all > RHEL3 advisories to date, all FC1 and FC2 update notifications, our > internal list of issues that didn't need fixing for whatever reason, the > CVE named issues in Bugzilla, and finally looking at new packages in FC3 > that were not previously in another release). Then for each CVE issue we > look to see which upstream version (if any) the vulnerability is fixed in, > and if FC3 contains that (or a better) upstream version. If not, we check > to see if the FC3 package contains a backported fix for the issue. For > this audit we trust changelog entries that say that a backported fix is > included since these will have already been audited by us when the > relevant FC2/1 or RHEL advisory came out. We also trust upstream > announcements that state which versions have fixed particular > vulnerabilities.) > > So this table gives the CVE name, the reason why FC3 isn't vulnerable > (either it has an upstream version that isn't vulnerable, or it contains a > backported security fix), and optional comments showing the package name, > version it was fixed in, or method used to verify the details. > > Corrections or missed issues appreciated to secalert at redhat.com (although > now FC3 is out we track all new issues in a different way, so we won't do > new versions of this table). > > CAN-2003-0328 backport (epic, changelog) > CAN-2003-0542 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.48) > CAN-2003-0564 version (Mozilla, ICAT) > CAN-2003-0594 version (Mozilla, ICAT) > CAN-2003-0789 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.48) > CAN-2003-0848 backport (slocate, changelog) > CAN-2003-0853 version (coreutils, fixed 5.1.3) > CAN-2003-0856 version (iproute) > CAN-2003-0858 version (quagga, fixed 0.95) > CAN-2003-0859 version (glibc, checked source) > CAN-2003-0925 version (ethereal, fixed 0.9.16) > CAN-2003-0926 version (ethereal, fixed 0.9.16) > CAN-2003-0927 version (ethereal, fixed 0.9.16) > CAN-2003-0935 version (Net-SNMP, fixed 5.0.9) > CAN-2003-0962 version (rsync, fixed 2.5.7) > CAN-2003-0963 version (lftp, fixed after 2.6.9) > CAN-2003-0967 version (FreeRADIUS, fixed after 0.9.2) > CAN-2003-0971 version (GnuPG, fixed after 1.0.2) > CAN-2003-0973 version (mod_python, fixed 3.0.4) > CAN-2003-0977 version (CVS, fixed 1.11.10) > CAN-2003-0989 version (tcpdump, fixed 3.8.1) > CAN-2003-0992 version (mailman, fixed 2.1.4) > CAN-2003-1012 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.0) > CAN-2003-1013 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.0) > CAN-2003-1023 version (mc, 4.6.1) > CAN-2004-0006 version (Gaim, fixed 0.76) > CAN-2004-0007 version (Gaim, fixed 0.75) > CAN-2004-0008 version (Gaim, fixed 0.75) > CAN-2004-0055 version (tcpdump, fixed 3.8.2) > CAN-2004-0057 version (tcpdump, fixed 3.8.2) > CAN-2004-0079 backport (OpenSSL, changelog) > CAN-2004-0081 VULNERABLE (openssl096b only, see bug 138365) > CAN-2004-0083 version (XFree86) > CAN-2004-0084 version (XFree86) > CAN-2004-0097 version (PWLib, fixed 1.6.0) > CAN-2004-0098 version (php) > CAN-2004-0106 version (XFree86) > CAN-2004-0107 version (sysstat, fixed after 4.0.7) > CAN-2004-0110 version (libxml2, fixed 2.6.6) > CAN-2004-0112 backport (OpenSSL, changelog) > CAN-2004-0150 version (python, fixed 2.2.2) > CAN-2004-0155 version (Racoon) > CAN-2004-0164 version (Racoon) > CAN-2004-0174 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.49) > CAN-2004-0176 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.3) > CAN-2004-0179 version (neon, fixed 0.24.5) > CAN-2004-0179 version (openoffice.org) > CAN-2004-0180 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.15) > CAN-2004-0182 version (mailman, only affected RH packages) > CAN-2004-0183 version (tcpdump, fixed 3.8.2) > CAN-2004-0184 version (tcpdump, fixed 3.8.2) > CAN-2004-0186 version (samba, not 3.0.2a) > CAN-2004-0226 version (mc, fixed 4.6.0) > CAN-2004-0231 version (mc, fixed 4.6.0) > CAN-2004-0232 version (mc, fixed 4.6.0) > CAN-2004-0233 backport (utempter, changelog) > CAN-2004-0234 backport (lha, changelog) > CAN-2004-0235 backport (lha, changelog) > CAN-2004-0256 version (libtool, fixed 1.5.2) > CAN-2004-0365 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.3) > CAN-2004-0367 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.3) > CAN-2004-0381 backport (mysql, changelog) > CAN-2004-0388 backport (mysql, changelog) > CAN-2004-0396 version (cvs, fixed 1.12.8) > CAN-2004-0397 version (subversion, fixed 1.0.1) > CAN-2004-0398 version (neon, fixed 0.24.6) > CAN-2004-0403 version (racoon, fixed 20040408a) > CAN-2004-0405 version (cvs, fixed 1.11) > CAN-2004-0409 version (xchat, fixed after 2.0.8) > CAN-2004-0411 version (kde, fixed 3.3*) > CAN-2004-0412 version (mailman, fixed 2.1.5) > CAN-2004-0413 version (subversion, fixed 1.0.5) > CAN-2004-0414 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.17) > CAN-2004-0416 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.17) > CAN-2004-0417 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.17) > CAN-2004-0418 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.17) > CAN-2004-0419 version (xorg-x11) > CAN-2004-0421 version (libpng, fixed 1.0.16) > CAN-2004-0422 version (flim, fixed 1.14.3) > CAN-2004-0426 version (rsync, fixed 2.6.1) > CAN-2004-0457 backport (mysql, changelog) > CAN-2004-0460 version (dhcp, fixed after 3.0.1rc13) > CAN-2004-0461 version (dhcp, fixed after 3.0.1rc13) > CAN-2004-0488 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.50) > CAN-2004-0493 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.50) > CAN-2004-0494 version (mc, fixed 4.6.1) > CAN-2004-0500 version (gaim, fixed 0.82) > CAN-2004-0504 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.4) > CAN-2004-0505 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.4) > CAN-2004-0506 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.4) > CAN-2004-0507 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.4) > CAN-2004-0519 version (squirrelmail, fixed 1.4.3a) > CAN-2004-0520 version (squirrelmail, fixed 1.4.3a) > CAN-2004-0521 version (squirrelmail, fixed 1.4.3a) > CAN-2004-0523 version (krb5, fixed 1.3.4) > CAN-2004-0541 version (squid) > CAN-2004-0557 version (sox, fixed after 12.17.4) > CAN-2004-0558 version (cups, fixed 1.1.21) > CAN-2004-0594 version (php, fixed 4.3.8) > CAN-2004-0595 version (php, fixed 4.3.8) > CAN-2004-0597 version (libpng, fixed 1.2.6) > CAN-2004-0597 version (mozilla, fixed 1.7.2) > CAN-2004-0598 version (libpng, fixed 1.2.6) > CAN-2004-0599 version (libpng, fixed 1.2.6) > CAN-2004-0599 version (mozilla, fixed 1.7.2) > CAN-2004-0600 version (samba, fixed 3.0.6) > CAN-2004-0607 version (racoon, note RHSA-2004:308 has wrong text) > CAN-2004-0633 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.5) > CAN-2004-0634 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.5) > CAN-2004-0635 version (ethereal, fixed 0.10.5) > CAN-2004-0642 backport (krb5, changelog) > CAN-2004-0644 backport (krb5, changelog) > CAN-2004-0645 version (abiword, fixed 2.0.9) > CAN-2004-0686 version (samba, fixed 3.0.6) > CAN-2004-0687 version (OpenMotif libxpm) > CAN-2004-0687 VULNERABLE (lesstif libxpm, see bug 135080) > CAN-2004-0688 version (OpenMotif libxpm) > CAN-2004-0687 VULNERABLE (lesstif libxpm, see bug 135081) > CAN-2004-0689 version (kde, fixed 3.3.0) > CAN-2004-0691 version (gdk-pixbuf; qt, fixed 3.3.3) > CAN-2004-0692 version (qt, fixed 3.3.3) > CAN-2004-0693 version (qt, fixed 3.3.3) > CAN-2004-0694 backport (lha, changelog) > CAN-2004-0718 version (mozilla #246448, fixed 1.7) > CAN-2004-0721 version (kde, fixed 3.3*) > CAN-2004-0722 version (mozilla #236618, fixed 1.7) > CAN-2004-0745 backport (lha, changelog) > CAN-2004-0746 version (kde, fixed 3.3*) > CAN-2004-0747 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.51) > CAN-2004-0748 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.51) > CAN-2004-0749 version (subversion, fixed 1.0.8) > CAN-2004-0750 version (redhat-config-nfs, fixed 1.0.13) > CAN-2004-0751 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.51) > CAN-2004-0752 backport (openoffice.org, in ooo-build-cvs) > CAN-2004-0753 backport (gtk2; gdk-pixbuf, changelog) > CAN-2004-0753 version (gdk-pixbuf, fixed 0.22) > CAN-2004-0754 version (gaim, fixed 0.82) > CAN-2004-0755 version (ruby, fixed 1.8.1) > CAN-2004-0757 version (mozilla #229374, fixed 1.7) > CAN-2004-0758 version (mozilla, fixed 1.7.2) > CAN-2004-0759 version (mozilla #241924, fixed 1.7) > CAN-2004-0760 version (mozilla #250906, fixed 1.7.2) > CAN-2004-0761 version (mozilla #240053, fixed 1.7) > CAN-2004-0762 version (mozilla #162020, fixed 1.7) > CAN-2004-0763 version (mozilla #253121, fixed 1.7.2) > CAN-2004-0764 version (mozilla #244965, fixed 1.7) > CAN-2004-0765 version (mozilla #234058, fixed 1.7) > CAN-2004-0769 backport (lha, changelog) > CAN-2004-0771 backport (lha, changelog) > CAN-2004-0772 backport (krb5, changelog) > CAN-2004-0778 version (cvs, fixed 1.11.17) > CAN-2004-0782 backport (gtk2; gdk-pixbuf, patch) > CAN-2004-0782 version (gtk;gdk-pixbuf, fixed 0.22) > CAN-2004-0783 backport (gtk2; gdk-pixbuf, patch) > CAN-2004-0783 version (gtk;gdk-pixbuf, fixed 0.22) > CAN-2004-0784 version (gaim, fixed 0.82) > CAN-2004-0785 version (gaim, fixed 0.82) > CAN-2004-0786 backport (apr-util, changelog) > CAN-2004-0788 backport (gtk2; gdk-pixbuf, patch) > CAN-2004-0788 version (gtk;gdk-pixbuf, fixed 0.22) > CAN-2004-0792 version (rsync) > CAN-2004-0796 version (spamassassin, fixed 2.64) > CAN-2004-0797 version (zlib) > CAN-2004-0801 version (foomatic, fixed 3.0.2) > CAN-2004-0803 backport (libtiff, changelog) > CAN-2004-0803 version (kdegraphics, fixed by Update on 20041109) > CAN-2004-0804 backport (libtiff, changelog) > CAN-2004-0804 version (kdegraphics, fixed by Update on 20041109) > CAN-2004-0806 version (cdrecord, fixed 2.0.1) > CAN-2004-0807 version (samba, fixed 3.0.7) > CAN-2004-0808 version (samba, fixed 3.0.7) > CAN-2004-0809 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.51) > CAN-2004-0811 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.52) > CAN-2004-0817 backport (imlib, changelog) > CAN-2004-0827 version (ImageMagick, fixed 6.0.6.2) > CAN-2004-0829 (not a security issue) > CAN-2004-0832 version (squid, fixed 2.5.7) > CAN-2004-0835 backport (mysql, changelog) > CAN-2004-0836 backport (mysql, changelog) > CAN-2004-0837 backport (mysql, changelog) > CAN-2003-0860 version (php, fixed 4.3.3) > CAN-2003-0861 version (php, fixed 4.3.3) > CAN-2004-0884 backport (cyrus-sasl, changelog) > CAN-2004-0885 backport (httpd, changelog) > CAN-2004-0886 backport (libtiff, changelog) > CAN-2004-0886 version (kdegraphics, fixed by Update on 20041109) > CAN-2004-0888 backport (xpdf, changelog) > CAN-2004-0888 backport (cups, **since 1.1.22-0.rc1.8** FC3-3.3) > CAN-2004-0888 backport (gpdf, **since 2.8.0-5** FC3-3.4) > CAN-2004-0888 VULNERABLE (tetex, see bug 137476) > CAN-2004-0889 backport (xpdf, changelog) > CAN-2004-0891 backport (gaim, changelog) > CAN-2004-0902 version (mozilla #133023, fixed 1.7.3) > CAN-2004-0903 version (mozilla #133016, fixed 1.7.3) > CAN-2004-0904 version (mozilla #133014, fixed 1.7.3) > CAN-2004-0905 version (mozilla #133012, fixed 1.7.3) > CAN-2004-0908 version (mozilla #133021, fixed 1.7.3) > CAN-2004-0918 backport (squid, changelog) > CAN-2004-0923 backport (cups, changelog) > CAN-2004-0930 VULNERABLE (Samba, see bug 138326) > CAN-2004-0938 version (freeradius, fixed 1.0.1) > CAN-2004-0942 VULNERABLE (httpd, see bug 138065) > CAN-2004-0957 backport (mysql, changelog) > CAN-2004-0958 version (php, fixed 4.3.9) > CAN-2004-0959 version (php, fixed 4.3.9) > CAN-2004-0960 version (freeradius, fixed 1.0.1) > CAN-2004-0961 version (freeradius, fixed 1.0.1) > CAN-2004-0966 backport (gettext, **since 0.14.1-12** FC3-3.8) > CAN-2004-0967 backport (ghostscript, changelog) > CAN-2004-0968 backport (glibc, changelog) > CAN-2004-0969 backport (groff, changelog) > CAN-2004-0971 VULNERABLE (krb5, see bug 136307) > CAN-2004-0972 VULNERABLE (lvm, see bug 136309) > CAN-2004-0974 VULNERABLE (tetex, see bug 137966) > CAN-2004-0975 VULNERABLE (openssl, see bug 136303) > CAN-2004-0976 version (perl, since 5.8.4) > CAN-2004-0977 backport (postgresql, **since 7.4.5-4** FC3-3.2) > CAN-2004-0981 VULNERABLE (ImakeMagick, see bug 138385) > CAN-2004-0983 VULNERABLE (Ruby, see bug 138366) > CAN-2004-0989 backport (libxml2, **since 2.6.14-2** FC3-3.3) > CAN-2004-0990 VULNERABLE (gd, see bug 137247) > CVE-2002-1363 version (libpng, fixed 1.2.6) > CVE-2003-0020 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.49) > CVE-2003-0924 version (netpbm, fixed 9.26) > CVE-2003-0988 version (kde, fixed 3.1.5) > CVE-2004-0078 backport (mutt, changelog) > CVE-2004-0082 version (samba, fixed 3.0.2) > CVE-2004-0096 version (mod_python, fixed after 2.7.9) > CVE-2004-0108 version (sysstat) > CVE-2004-0111 version (gdk-pixbuf, fixed 0.20) > CVE-2004-0113 version (httpd, fixed 2.0.49) > CVE-2004-0189 version (squid, fixed 2.5stable5) > CVE-2004-0191 version (Mozilla, fixed 1.4.2) > From mcwimpy at gmx.at Tue Nov 9 13:59:24 2004 From: mcwimpy at gmx.at (Markus Nicolussi) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:59:24 +0100 (MET) Subject: PPC References: <1100000358.23030.12.camel@dhcp31230.admin.kth.se> Message-ID: <27550.1100008764@www53.gmx.net> > You opened a mail with the subject "Re: RedHat forks OpenSSH?", clicked > "Reply" and changed the subject to "PPC". thats right how did u know? > Please don't do that. You mail > will be delivered as a reply, even though it isn't. Wow! But Why? nico -- Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail + 3 Top-Spielfilme auf DVD ++ Jetzt kostenlos testen http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail ++ From blin at na.uni-tuebingen.de Tue Nov 9 14:08:44 2004 From: blin at na.uni-tuebingen.de (Kai Blin) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:08:44 +0100 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <1100007249.14030.120.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <20041109102731.GI11935@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100007249.14030.120.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <200411091508.44217.blin@na.uni-tuebingen.de> On Tuesday 09 November 2004 14:34, Iago Rubio wrote: > I know it's weird, and nobody - even judges - know how the hell this law > will be applied, but well, it's how things are going in Spain right now. Sounds similar to what we have in Germany for some years now. Everyone seems to ignore the new legislation so far. The federal gouvernment itself ships a Linux Distro that contains "john", a password cracking tool that would be considered illegal by the same law that outlaws owning tools that could decode CSS. Cheers, Kai -- Kai Blin, Sysop Dept. of Numerical Analysis, University of T?bingen, Germany From giallu at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 14:13:51 2004 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:13:51 +0100 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <20041109133811.GA9322@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> <1099994043.12098.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041109102731.GI11935@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100007249.14030.120.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041109133811.GA9322@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:38:11 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > Yes. Several EU countries do this and I have friends who mail order their > blank CD's from non stupid EU member states in bulk (It is a single market....) > in protest 8) Italy just happen to do this, so we do not classify as "non stupid"... Can anyone name some of those countries??? maybe I would be able to use one online shopping site there :) Cheers From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Tue Nov 9 14:20:45 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:20:45 +0100 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <20041109133811.GA9322@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> <1099994043.12098.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041109102731.GI11935@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100007249.14030.120.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041109133811.GA9322@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041109152045.251367e2.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Alan Cox wrote : > On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 02:34:09PM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > > I've just payed a fee of 1,50 euros to burn the fedore Core 3 release, > > that will be payed to *some* singers affiliated to the SGAE. Weird, > > isn't it ? > > Yes. Several EU countries do this and I have friends who mail order their > blank CD's from non stupid EU member states in bulk (It is a single > market....) in protest 8) Well, I for one am living in Spain but buy blank media in Andorra where no such taxes exist, unlike here or in France... where at one point discussions to apply such taxes to all other storage devices (e.g. hard drives) were taking place. I don't know the final outcome, though. Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.649.radeon Load : 0.17 0.28 0.26 From mcwimpy at gmx.at Tue Nov 9 14:20:54 2004 From: mcwimpy at gmx.at (Markus Nicolussi) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:20:54 +0100 (MET) Subject: PPC Message-ID: <1984.1100010054@www53.gmx.net> Hello! Where can i informe myselfe about when will the PPC platform be officially supported by Fedora? Is there a official group behind the PPC devel tree on the FC server? How can i participate, if there is. The FC homepage doesn't tell me much... ciao, nico. -- Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail + 3 Top-Spielfilme auf DVD ++ Jetzt kostenlos testen http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail ++ From abo at kth.se Tue Nov 9 14:32:18 2004 From: abo at kth.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:32:18 +0100 Subject: Threaded mail In-Reply-To: <27550.1100008764@www53.gmx.net> References: <1100000358.23030.12.camel@dhcp31230.admin.kth.se> <27550.1100008764@www53.gmx.net> Message-ID: <1100010738.23030.24.camel@dhcp31230.admin.kth.se> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 14:59, Markus Nicolussi wrote: > > You opened a mail with the subject "Re: RedHat forks OpenSSH?", clicked > > "Reply" and changed the subject to "PPC". > > thats right how did u know? Try to enable "threaded view" in your mail reader, if it supports it, and you'll see. > > Please don't do that. You mail > > will be delivered as a reply, even though it isn't. > > Wow! But Why? Try to "view full headers" and look at the "hidden" Message-ID and References headers on different mails. Then you'll understand. :-) /abo From thomas at apestaart.org Tue Nov 9 14:33:59 2004 From: thomas at apestaart.org (Thomas Vander Stichele) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:33:59 +0100 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100004445.18306.2.camel@berlin.east.gov> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100004445.18306.2.camel@berlin.east.gov> Message-ID: <1100010839.2248.2.camel@otto.amantes> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 07:47 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 07:12, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > [...snip...] > > I read through a few howto's, including > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc3/index.html > > (which has all of its internal links broken, can somebody please fix > > this, it's quite annoying !) ... > [...snip...] > > Please file a bug in Bugzilla against component "fedora-docs," and note > some of the specific links that are broken. Thank you! Done, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138465 Dave/Dina : future TV today ! - http://www.davedina.org/ <-*- thomas (dot) apestaart (dot) org -*-> The girl that I could never hurt had to go and lose all that power over me and I claimed victory <-*- thomas (at) apestaart (dot) org -*-> URGent, best radio on the net - 24/7 ! - http://urgent.fm/ From twaugh at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 14:42:04 2004 From: twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:42:04 +0000 Subject: Please test grep-2.5.1-36 Message-ID: <20041109144204.GP8596@redhat.com> Hello, I made some changes to grep in the last few days, and would appreciate feedback about their effectiveness. Please reply only to me, not to the list. The aim was to improve performance when processing UTF-8 input, without causing any regressions (either in correctness or performance) with any character encoding. You can get grep-2.5.1-36 from the Fedora development tree: http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/development/ or from my people.redhat.com site: ftp://people.redhat.com/twaugh/tmp/grep/fedora-core-3/ I would like to know: a) that you've tested the package at all b) whether you noticed any performance difference, positive or negative, compared to grep-2.5.1-31 (Fedora Core 3) c) whether you found any cases where the output is different with the new package than compared to grep-2.5.1-31 (Fedora Core 3) Please reply only to me, not to the list. Thanks, Tim. */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dwmw2 at infradead.org Tue Nov 9 14:44:24 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:44:24 +0000 Subject: PPC In-Reply-To: <1984.1100010054@www53.gmx.net> References: <1984.1100010054@www53.gmx.net> Message-ID: <1100011464.4542.147.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 15:20 +0100, Markus Nicolussi wrote: > Hello! > > Where can i informe myselfe about > > when will the PPC platform be officially supported by Fedora? Is there a > official group behind the PPC devel tree on the FC server? How can i > participate, if there is. The FC homepage doesn't tell me much... We'd like to do a release of FC3 for PPC, but then we'd have liked to do the same for FC2 and that didn't happen. I'm not actually sure where to get the FC3/ppc tree now that rawhide has switched -- perhaps someone can enlighten us? See http://www.bytebot.net/geekdocs/ibook/fedorappc.html, the mailing list at http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ppc and #fedora-ppc on irc.freenode.net. -- dwmw2 From byte at aeon.com.my Tue Nov 9 14:32:46 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:32:46 +1100 Subject: PPC In-Reply-To: <1984.1100010054@www53.gmx.net> References: <1984.1100010054@www53.gmx.net> Message-ID: <1100010766.3358.139.camel@hermione.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 15:20 +0100, Markus Nicolussi wrote: > when will the PPC platform be officially supported by Fedora? Is there a > official group behind the PPC devel tree on the FC server? How can i > participate, if there is. The FC homepage doesn't tell me much... A mailing list: http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ppc An install guide: http://www.bytebot.net/geekdocs/ibook/fedorappc.html An IRC channel: Freenode, #fedora-ppc Some active trees: http://fedoraproject.org/fedorappc/ Its not "officially" "supported"[1] by the Fedora Project (yet), no [1] - Fedora Core itself, on x86/x86_64 isn't "supported" -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From sds at epoch.ncsc.mil Tue Nov 9 15:24:55 2004 From: sds at epoch.ncsc.mil (Stephen Smalley) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:24:55 -0500 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <1100013895.408.100.camel@moss-spartans.epoch.ncsc.mil> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 07:12, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > The latter has a paragraph about where policy is stored, and mentions > Makefiles and other stuff in /etc/selinux. None of this is present on > my FC3 system, so I'm assuming here that Red Hat has changed some things > from the default SELinux which obliviate this step, but I have way of > finding out how. Am I missing something ? Maybe there's a package I > need to install ? FC3 places the policy under /etc/selinux/targeted (or strict, if using that policy). By default, only the compiled policy (selinux-policy-targeted) is installed, I think. You need to install selinux-policy-targeted-sources for the policy sources. The policy sources and Makefile are placed under /etc/selinux/targeted/src/policy. > The former howto tells me I can run > /sbin/fixfiles relabel /home/thomas/www > > but that command just gives me this: > Usage: /sbin/fixfiles {-R rpmpackage[,rpmpackage...] [-l logfile ] [-o > outputfile ] |check|restore|[-F] relabel} > > It would seem to me that what I issued was correct, both from the howto > as well as the usage output. Clearly I'm missing something else here. fixfiles doesn't take a list of directories, AFAIK, nor does the usage message say that it does. It is just a script front-end by RedHat for the setfiles program. setfiles was the original program, used to label entire filesystems for an initial install of SELinux, although it can be applied to a subtree. > So I tried this: > restorecon -v -R /home/thomas/www > > and that did something. How do these two tools differ ? Why does the > first not work as advertised. setfiles - The original upstream program. Relabels or checks entire filesystems or at least a subtree starting from the specified directories. Requires explicit specification of a file_contexts configuration and of the list of directories to traverse. fixfiles - script front-end by RedHat for setfiles. Doesn't require (or even permit) specification of a file_contexts configuration or a list of directories to traverse; has some additional features like being able to selectively relabel all files in a given package. restorecon - variant of setfiles program by RedHat. Doesn't require or permit specification of a file_contexts configuration; does require specification of paths to relabel; only traverses directories recursively if -R is specified. This is more like a chown/chmod-style program, except you don't have to specify the context itself, as that is obtained from the file_contexts configuration based on the pathname. Over time, restorecon has been getting more and more like setfiles (e.g. via -R option); it just presents a different default interface to the user. Should likely be merged with setfiles in some manner. chcon - chown/chmod equivalent for security contexts. You specify the context and the individual files, can also recurse via -R. > Using ls -alz /home/thomas I seem to get the impression this security > context has been adopted. Still, apache refuses to see the directory. >From the initial denial, it looked like apache couldn't even search the top-level home directory ("thomas") because it lacked the proper security context (should have user_home_dir_t, not default_t). restorecon -R /home/thomas. > So I read some more of the howto. There's a binary called audit2allow > that could help me generate rules. So I run it, restart apache a few > times, but the binary doesn't print anything, not even with -v. Maybe > I'm using it wrong, but there's no way of finding out if I am. audit2allow -d (to read audit from dmesg output) or audit2allow -i /var/log/messages (to read from the messages file). Otherwise, it defaults to acting as a filter, reading from stdin. Possibly not the best choice of interface. > Maybe it would be a good idea to write a simple "getting started" guide > explaining how to do two or three common tasks (I'd say "serving web > pages from a nonstandard directory" would be one of them), making sure > that EVERY STEP works. Right now the howto contains things that do not > work as advertised, and links to docs that reference stuff that is not > present, without a mention close by where to get it. I think Colin has/is working on such a guide. I agree that the existing documentation is inadequate, and that part of the problem is that there is too much reliance on documentation that predates the Fedora SELinux integration and doesn't reflect changes made for it. Even FC2->FC3 introduced a lot of changes, so some documentation that was updated for FC2 is now out of date. > - A lot of developers I know, including a bunch at Red Hat, *turn off > SELINUX entirely*. IMO, something that gets pushed at heavily as this > should be dogfooded by the development team at Red Hat completely, so > they encounter firsthand what it means and how to fix basic issues. > Knowledge spreads through increasingly growing circles starting from the > center. If all RH developers, who have "easy" access to the SELINUX > people at Red Hat, were to use it, they'd have basic knowledge about it. > When the next circle of developers - outside of redhat, but having links > to inside - gets hit, they do the same. And so on. > > It looks to me like the first circle is already completely broken, hence > halting the dissemination of information and increasing the annoyance > level outside of Red Hat. It won't be long before sysadmins and users > ignore the default and turn it off entirely. Fair point, no argument here. > - The documentation is not easy to find, out of date, and doesn't match > the system. IMO, if FC3 gets released, the howto for something as basic > as SELINUX should be uptodate and easy to find. Yes, and either there shouldn't be so much reliance on pre-existing documentation that predates Fedora SELinux integration or Fedora project should be submitting patches to update that pre-existing documentation. > I just want to get a good picture of where SELINUX is at and how to > solve issues, so that I can try to fix stuff myself, and explain to > other people. Otherwise I'll just have to turn off SELINUX myself, and > recommend the same to others when questions are asked about it. > > Feel free to comment, both on the particular issue at hand as well as > the general issue of entry barriers to selinux. Thanks for the feedback, and sorry for your troubles. -- Stephen Smalley National Security Agency From buildsys at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 15:30:22 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:30:22 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041109 changes Message-ID: <200411091530.iA9FUMS10033@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: PyXML-0.8.3-7 ------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0.8.3-7 - rebuild against python 2.4 Pyrex-0:0.9.2.1-3 ----------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0:0.9.2.1-3 - rebuild against python 2.4 abiword-1:2.0.12-4 ------------------ * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1:2.0.12-4 - rebuild for python 2.4 alchemist-1.0.35-1 ------------------ * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.0.35-1 - build for python 2.4 anaconda-10.2.0.1-1 ------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 10.2.0.1-1 - whrandom is deprecated in python 2.4, use random instead - fix some syntax errors - fallback to English for languages that can't do text-mode (#138308) - More CTCPROT/PORTNAME tweaks (karsten) * Sun Nov 07 2004 Jeremy Katz - 10.2.0.0-1 - Switch to python 2.4 - Clean up warning on network screen from pygtk - Parse pxelinux IPAPPEND for loader network info, patch from Bastien Nocera (#134054) - Clean up handling of binaries busybox should override - Do misc package selection earlier so we know all the CDs needed when confirming the install (#122017) - Mark some strings for translation (#137197) - Don't reference boot disks in boot loader screen (#135851) - Add hardware address information to network screen (#131814) - Fix exception handling in label reading * Thu Nov 04 2004 Jeremy Katz - 10.1.1.4-1 - Fix traceback with CJK upgrades (#137345) - Allow 128 bit WEP keys (#137447) - Fix race condition with X client startup (krh, #108777) - Fix segfault in hd kickstart install (twaugh, #137533) - Better handling of errors reading labels (#137846) - Try harder to find LCS interface names (karsten) - Improve CTCPROT handling (karsten) - Fix traceback going back in rescue mode network config (#137844) - Don't use busybox shutdown, poweroff, reboot (#137948) - Set permissions on anaconda logs - Make autopartioning better with native storage on legacy iSeries - Sync onboot behavior of gui/text network screens (#138011) - Load some drivers later to try to avoid having FC disks be sda - Sizes in ks.cfg need to be an integer (#138109) authconfig-4.6.5-6 ------------------ * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 4.6.5-6 - rebuild against python 2.4 bash-3.0-18 ----------- * Thu Nov 04 2004 Adrian Havill 3.0-18 - add code to /etc/skel/.bash_logout to support the gpm selection buffer invalidation on virtual terminals (#115493) brltty-3.2-6 ------------ * Thu Oct 14 2004 Adrian Havill 3.2-6 - chmod a-x for conf file (#116244) cpio-2.5-7 ---------- * Tue Jun 15 2004 Elliot Lee - rebuilt * Fri Feb 13 2004 Elliot Lee - rebuilt * Tue Sep 23 2003 Florian La Roche - do not link against -lnsl cvs-1.11.17-4 ------------- * Mon Nov 01 2004 Adrian Havill 1.11.17-4 - convert sccs migrate script from csh to perl (#57974, Ken Cox) dbus-0.22-12 ------------ * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0.22-12 - rebuild against python 2.4 docbook-style-dsssl-1.79-1 -------------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Tim Waugh 1.79-1 - 1.79. - No longer need articleinfo patch. ethereal-0.10.6-4 ----------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0.10.6-4 - rebuild against python 2.4 gawk-3.1.3-12 ------------- gcc4-4.0.0-0.11 --------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jakub Jelinek 4.0.0-0.11 - use/require GCC 3.4.3 instead of 3.4.2 gnutls-1.0.20-4 --------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Colin Walters 1.0.20-4 - Make gnutls-devel Require libgcrypt-devel kde-i18n-1:3.3.1-1 ------------------ * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 1:3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 kdeaddons-3.3.1-1 ----------------- * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 kdeadmin-7:3.3.1-1 ------------------ * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 7:3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 kdebase-6:3.3.1-7 ----------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-7 - apply patch number 86 - add patch to fix man page problem konqueror, thanks to Andy Shevchenko kdebindings-3.3.1-1 ------------------- * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 kdeedu-3.3.1-2.1 ---------------- * Thu Nov 04 2004 Than Ngo 3.3.1-2.1 - built for FC3 * Mon Oct 18 2004 Than Ngo 3.3.1-2 - rebuilt * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 release kdegames-6:3.3.1-1 ------------------ * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 kdemultimedia-6:3.3.1-1 ----------------------- * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 kdenetwork-7:3.3.1-1 -------------------- * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 7:3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 kdepim-6:3.3.1-1 ---------------- * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-1 - update to KDE 3.3.1 kdesdk-3.3.1-1 -------------- * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 3:3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 kdetoys-7:3.3.1-1 ----------------- * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 7:3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 kdevelop-9:3.1.1-1 ------------------ * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 9:3.1.1-1 - update to 3.1.1 kdewebdev-6:3.3.1-1 ------------------- * Wed Oct 13 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-1 - update to 3.3.1 kudzu-1.1.95-2 -------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.1.95-2 - rebuild for python 2.4 libdbi-0.6.5-10 --------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Tom Lane 0.6.5-10 - build against mysqlclient10, not mysql, for license reasons libidn-0.5.9-1 -------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Joe Orton 0.5.9-1 - update to 0.5.9 (#138296) libmusicbrainz-2.0.2-12 ----------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Colin Walters 2.0.2-12 - Add libmusicbrainz-2.0.2-missing-return.patch (bug #137289) libuser-0.52.6-2 ---------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0.52.6-2 - rebuild against python 2.4 libxml2-2.6.15-3 ---------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.6.15-3 - rebuild for python 2.4 mc-1:4.6.1-0.9 -------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jindrich Novy 4.6.1-0.9 - update from CVS - convert help files in /doc to UTF-8 - add --enable-charsets (#76486) - drop upstreamed 8bitdefault, extfs patch - update partially upstreamed strippwd and extension patches - add UTF-8 help patch from Vladimir Nadvornik (#136826) - add promptfix patch * Wed Nov 03 2004 Jindrich Novy - drop upstreamed smallpatches patch - install non-en man pages and fix encoding (#137036) - fix possible mem leak in strippwd patch * Fri Oct 22 2004 Jindrich Novy - drop second part of the uglydir patch to display panel title correctly in UTF8 (#136129) newt-0.51.6-6 ------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0.51.6-6 - rebuild for python 2.4 parted-1.6.16-1 --------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.6.16-1 - update to 1.6.16 - rebuild for python 2.4 planner-0.12.1-3 ---------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0.12.1-3 - rebuild against python 2.4 procmail-3.22-15 ---------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Martin Stransky 3.22-15 - add largefiles patch to support 64-bit file I/O pyparted-1.6.8-3 ---------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.6.8-3 - rebuild for python 2.4 python-2.4-0.b2.3 ----------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.4-0.b2.3 - fix the lib64 patch so that 64bit arches still look in /usr/lib/python... * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.4-0.b2.2 - cryptmodule still needs -lcrypt (again) pyxf86config-0.3.19-2 --------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0.3.19-2 - rebuild for python 2.4 - make the python requires be on the python-abi rhpl-0.150-1 ------------ * Mon Nov 08 2004 Paul Nasrat - 0.150-1 - Remove synaptics Requires rpm-4.3.2-23 ------------ * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 4.3.2-23 - PyDictIter_Type is no more * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 4.3.2-22 - rebuild for python 2.4 rpmdb-fedora-1:3-0.20041109 --------------------------- samba-0:3.0.8-2 --------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jay Fenlason 3.0.8-2 - New upstream version fixes CAN-2004-0930. This obsoletes the disable-sendfile, salt, signing-shortkey and fqdn patches. - Add my ugly non-ascii-domain patch. - Updated the pie patch for 3.0.8. - Updated the logfiles patch for 3.0.8. * Tue Oct 26 2004 Jay Fenlason 3.0.8-0.pre2 - New upstream version - Add Nalin's signing-shortkey patch. sane-backends-1.0.15-1 ---------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Tim Waugh 1.0.15-1 - 1.0.15. sane-frontends-1.0.13-1 ----------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Tim Waugh 1.0.13-1 - 1.0.13. selinux-policy-strict-1.18.2-3 ------------------------------ * Mon Nov 08 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.2-3 - Complete lockdev and test with mincom * Sat Nov 06 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.2-2 - Add preliminary lockdev defs selinux-policy-targeted-1.18.2-3 -------------------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.2-3 - Complete lockdev and test with mincom * Sat Nov 06 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.2-2 - Add preliminary lockdev defs setools-1.5.1-2 --------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Dan Walsh 1.5.1-2 - Apply malloc problem patch provided by Sami Farin shadow-utils-2:4.0.3-38 ----------------------- * Wed Oct 27 2004 Adrian Havill 2:4.0.3-38 - conform to posix for user/group name input checking [def 3.426 and 3.189] which is posix portable filename character set [3.276] while disallowing dash for first char as recommended, and disallow dollar sign) slang-1.4.9-7 ------------- * Wed Nov 03 2004 Adrian Havill 1.4.9-7 - fixed potentional two buffer overflows (#120291) - fixed date-in-future in %changelog * Sun Aug 01 2004 Alan Cox - fixed requires so slang-devel pulls in libtermcap-devel (#125299) * Tue Jun 15 2004 Elliot Lee - rebuilt swig-1.3.21-7 ------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.3.21-7 - rebuild against python 2.4 system-config-printer-0.6.116-2 ------------------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0.6.116-2 - rebuild for python 2.4 system-config-users-1.2.27-1 ---------------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Nils Philippsen - 1.2.27-1 - some sanity testing to avoid deleting system directories when deleting a user (#138093) - eventually delete mail spool (#102637) and temporary files (#126756) * Fri Nov 05 2004 Nils Philippsen - set password and confirm password entries (in)sensitive based on whether account is locked or not (#131180) valgrind-1:2.2.0-4 ------------------ * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.2.0-4 - fix a printout and possible problem with local variable usage around setjmp (#138254) vte-0.11.11-12 -------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0.11.11-12 - rebuild against python 2.4 * Mon Nov 08 2004 Ray Strode 0.11.11-11 - Fix keypad keys when numlock is on in application mode (Patch from , bug 126110). wireless-tools-1:27-0.pre25.4 ----------------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Dan Williams 27-0.pre25-4 - Fix massive leak in iw_process_scan() words-3.0-2 ----------- * Fri Nov 05 2004 Adrian Havill 3-1 - replace word list with much better Moby Project words list (#61395) - revise %description; ispell/aspell no longer uses words yum-2.1.11-4 ------------ * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.1.11-4 - rebuild for python 2.4 zip-2.3-26.3 ------------ * Mon Nov 08 2004 Lon Hohberger 2.3-26.3 - Rebuild for FC-3 * Mon Nov 08 2004 Lon Hohberger 2.3-26.2 - Fix buffer overflow. #138230 From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 16:13:08 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:13:08 -0500 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> <1099994043.12098.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041109102731.GI11935@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100007249.14030.120.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041109133811.GA9322@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041109161308.GA7602@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 03:13:51PM +0100, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > Italy just happen to do this, so we do not classify as "non stupid"... > Can anyone name some of those countries??? maybe I would be able to > use one online shopping site there :) The UK is one of those that is reasonably sane on media levies at the moment. We've got lots of different problems instead (eg we all go to France to buy wine) Alan From wstearns at pobox.com Tue Nov 9 16:15:00 2004 From: wstearns at pobox.com (William Stearns) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:15:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: mirror In-Reply-To: <1099940333.4856.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1099940333.4856.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: Good day, Patricio, On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > i know maybe this it's no a theme to talk here, but here it goes? > how can i create a mirror from ayo, dag and etc? Try yum-pull from http://www.stearns.org/mirror/ . Cheers, - Bill --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "cc:Mail is a wonderful application, as long as you don't want to read or send mail." (Courtesy of Nix ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Stearns (wstearns at pobox.com). Mason, Buildkernel, freedups, p0f, rsync-backup, ssh-keyinstall, dns-check, more at: http://www.stearns.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dmalcolm at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 16:46:55 2004 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:46:55 -0500 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <1100018816.3837.80.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 13:12 +0100, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > Hi, > > I upgraded to FC3 this weekend. I always try and go with the defaults > on a new install, because when fielding bug reports for my various > projects I prefer to make the defaults work first so bug reporters and I > have a common ground to work with. > > Since the default SELINUX policy is "targeted" I chose this, bracing > myself :) > > My first task was getting all my locally hosted websites to run. > > I have a few virtualhosts in my /home/thomas/www directory. When > starting apache, the service script complains about these directories > missing. > > Please note that I have a separate /home partition on hda6; I don't know > if this affects any policy (yet). > > The system log file shows things like: > audit(1100000312.370:0): avc: denied { search } for pid=12350 > exe=/usr/sbin/httpd name=thomas dev=hda6 ino=557094 > scontext=root:system_r:httpd_t tcontext=system_u:object_r:default_t > tclass=dir > > I read through a few howto's, including > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc3/index.html > (which has all of its internal links broken, can somebody please fix > this, it's quite annoying !) and the writing policy howto mentioned > herein: https://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php? > docid=21959&group_id=21266 > > The latter has a paragraph about where policy is stored, and mentions > Makefiles and other stuff in /etc/selinux. None of this is present on > my FC3 system, so I'm assuming here that Red Hat has changed some things > from the default SELinux which obliviate this step, but I have way of > finding out how. Am I missing something ? Maybe there's a package I > need to install ? > > I decided to learn about SELinux through the equivalent of poking at it > with a large stick. > I started adding some policy > to /etc/selinux/targeted/contexts/files/file_contexts, adding a line > reading: > > /home/thomas/www > system_u:object_r:httpd_sys_content_t > > The former howto tells me I can run > /sbin/fixfiles relabel /home/thomas/www > > but that command just gives me this: > Usage: /sbin/fixfiles {-R rpmpackage[,rpmpackage...] [-l logfile ] [-o > outputfile ] |check|restore|[-F] relabel} > > It would seem to me that what I issued was correct, both from the howto > as well as the usage output. Clearly I'm missing something else here. > > So I tried this: > restorecon -v -R /home/thomas/www > > and that did something. How do these two tools differ ? Why does the > first not work as advertised. > > Using ls -alz /home/thomas I seem to get the impression this security > context has been adopted. Still, apache refuses to see the directory. > > So I read some more of the howto. There's a binary called audit2allow > that could help me generate rules. So I run it, restart apache a few > times, but the binary doesn't print anything, not even with -v. Maybe > I'm using it wrong, but there's no way of finding out if I am. > > > At this point, I'm pretty much stuck. So if any kind soul wants to > throw me a bone, please do. > > There are some things I find troubling and would want to offer > suggestions for. > > - I am a fairly typical developer. I'd like to understand my system and > to do so I read documentation, look at examples and try it out. Yet the > barrier to entry to selinux is pretty high, which seems bad for > something Red Hat wants to be finely integrated into the distribution. > > Maybe it would be a good idea to write a simple "getting started" guide > explaining how to do two or three common tasks (I'd say "serving web > pages from a nonstandard directory" would be one of them), making sure > that EVERY STEP works. Right now the howto contains things that do not > work as advertised, and links to docs that reference stuff that is not > present, without a mention close by where to get it. > > - A lot of developers I know, including a bunch at Red Hat, *turn off > SELINUX entirely*. IMO, something that gets pushed at heavily as this > should be dogfooded by the development team at Red Hat completely, so > they encounter firsthand what it means and how to fix basic issues. FWIW I have three machines here, of which two have SELinux always on in enforcing mode, and the third sometimes on (dogfooding Rawhide here, so sometimes things break...). They're all using the targeted policy. > Knowledge spreads through increasingly growing circles starting from the > center. If all RH developers, who have "easy" access to the SELINUX > people at Red Hat, were to use it, they'd have basic knowledge about it. > When the next circle of developers - outside of redhat, but having links > to inside - gets hit, they do the same. And so on. > > It looks to me like the first circle is already completely broken, hence > halting the dissemination of information and increasing the annoyance > level outside of Red Hat. It won't be long before sysadmins and users > ignore the default and turn it off entirely. > > - The documentation is not easy to find, out of date, and doesn't match > the system. IMO, if FC3 gets released, the howto for something as basic > as SELINUX should be uptodate and easy to find. > > As it is today: > - http://fedora.redhat.com has one link to SELinux, which links to a > project page that seems to be from before FC2 (!) and has no mention of > documentation > - The "docs" link below that links to the docs as a project, not to > docs. Maybe not that bad, but confusing. > - The docs link on the left links to docs, where SELINUX is listed, and > the link mentions that it is for FC3 test 2 > - When you click it, the docs say it is for test *3* > - all internal links in that doc are broken > - some commands in that doc do not work: fixfiles, audit2allow > - the document is more of a FAQ than a Howto, a simple "getting started" > would help a lot. > > I understand that FC3 is relatively fresh and that not everything can be > in place from the start. > I just want to get a good picture of where SELINUX is at and how to > solve issues, so that I can try to fix stuff myself, and explain to > other people. Otherwise I'll just have to turn off SELINUX myself, and > recommend the same to others when questions are asked about it. > > Feel free to comment, both on the particular issue at hand as well as > the general issue of entry barriers to selinux. > > Thomas > > Dave/Dina : future TV today ! - http://www.davedina.org/ > <-*- thomas (dot) apestaart (dot) org -*-> > I will play you like a shark > And I'll clutch at your heart > I'll come flying like a spark > To enflame you > <-*- thomas (at) apestaart (dot) org -*-> > URGent, best radio on the net - 24/7 ! - http://urgent.fm/ > > > From tjarls at iee.lu Tue Nov 9 16:51:51 2004 From: tjarls at iee.lu (Charles Lopes) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:51:51 +0100 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> <1099994043.12098.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041109102731.GI11935@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100007249.14030.120.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041109133811.GA9322@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4190F5A7.3090609@iee.lu> Gianluca Sforna wrote: >On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:38:11 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > > >>Yes. Several EU countries do this and I have friends who mail order their >>blank CD's from non stupid EU member states in bulk (It is a single market....) >>in protest 8) >> >> > >Italy just happen to do this, so we do not classify as "non stupid"... > >Can anyone name some of those countries??? maybe I would be able to >use one online shopping site there :) > >Cheers > > > Rep. of Ireland, the UK , Luxembourg. From florin at andrei.myip.org Tue Nov 9 17:44:53 2004 From: florin at andrei.myip.org (Florin Andrei) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:44:53 -0800 Subject: media check message Message-ID: <1100022292.31286.2.camel@stantz.corp.sgi.com> When testing the installer CDs, if a disk fails, the software says: "The image which was just tested has errors. This could be due to a corrupt download or a bad disc. If applicable, please clean the disc and try again." This is true, yet incomplete. Sometimes it's the actual CD-ROM unit that is at fault. The installer should mention that as well. Example: "Or perhaps the CD-ROM unit needs cleaning or is deffective." -- Florin Andrei http://florin.myip.org/ From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 17:58:26 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:58:26 -0500 Subject: media check message In-Reply-To: <1100022292.31286.2.camel@stantz.corp.sgi.com> References: <1100022292.31286.2.camel@stantz.corp.sgi.com> Message-ID: <20041109175826.GB2361@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 09:44:53AM -0800, Florin Andrei wrote: > This is true, yet incomplete. Sometimes it's the actual CD-ROM unit that > is at fault. The installer should mention that as well. Example: > > "Or perhaps the CD-ROM unit needs cleaning or is deffective." Actually it should have been disabled, the media check in FC3 is broken unless you burned the CD with padding. The ide-cd driver is broken and FC uses ide-cd not ide-scsi (sanely for all sorts of other reasons). From kwade at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 18:25:09 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:25:09 -0800 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100010839.2248.2.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100004445.18306.2.camel@berlin.east.gov> <1100010839.2248.2.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <1100024709.3152.14991.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 06:33, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 07:47 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 07:12, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > > [...snip...] > > > I read through a few howto's, including > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc3/index.html > > > (which has all of its internal links broken, can somebody please fix > > > this, it's quite annoying !) ... > > [...snip...] > > > > Please file a bug in Bugzilla against component "fedora-docs," and note > > some of the specific links that are broken. Thank you! > > Done, > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138465 The SELinux FAQ specific bugs are now fixed, and should be live within the hour. ## snipped from the bug report Thanks for bringing these to our attention. Here are the quick fixes: > The "docs" link below that links to the docs as a project, > not to docs. Maybe not that bad, but confusing. This is a usability issue we need to consider. Perhaps renaming the navigation to be Projects > Docs Project? We regularly receive traffic on fedora-docs-list from people looking for documentation, whereas the Docs Project is for creating documentation. Fine line. More thought needed here. > The docs link on the left links to docs, where SELINUX is listed, > and the link mentions that it is for FC3 test 2 Oops. Fixed, should be live within the hour. > When you click it, the docs say it is for test *3* When this document was updated last (22-OCT-2004), it was current for test3. With the release yesterday of FC3 final, I have updated the title to say just Fedora Core 3. This should be live within the hour. > all internal links in that doc are broken Recently known issue due to a problematic script on fedora.redhat.com, fixed this morning, changes are already live. > some commands in that doc do not work: fixfiles, audit2allow Yes, there was an instance where fixfiles is shown using a directory path. This has been fixed, and language has been added to make the usage for fixfiles and audit2allow more clear. > the document is more of a FAQ than a Howto, a simple "getting > started" would help a lot. The Fedora Documentation Project needs writers. If you know of anyone who is interested in writing a kind of getting started guide, send them to fedora-docs-list, and we'll get them started. Soon for release is a tutorial on using Apache and SELinux. When this is ready, we'll announce it on the relevant mailing lists. This bug has been set to block bug #118757, which is the tracker bug for reports against the SELinux FAQ. The version reported against was selinux-faq-1.3-2 (2004-10-22-T16:20-0800). Current version is selinux-faq-1.3-3 (2004-11-09-T16:20-0800). ## snip end -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer a lemon is just a melon in disguise http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From walters at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 18:26:49 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:26:49 -0500 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <1100024810.5472.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 13:12 +0100, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > Hi, > > I upgraded to FC3 this weekend. I always try and go with the defaults > on a new install, because when fielding bug reports for my various > projects I prefer to make the defaults work first so bug reporters and I > have a common ground to work with. > > Since the default SELINUX policy is "targeted" I chose this, bracing > myself :) > > My first task was getting all my locally hosted websites to run. > > I have a few virtualhosts in my /home/thomas/www directory. When > starting apache, the service script complains about these directories > missing. > > Please note that I have a separate /home partition on hda6; I don't know > if this affects any policy (yet). Indeed, this is the root of the problem. Your /home partition isn't labeled since it was carried over from an earlier installation, so it gets the default_t type. Personally, I would have done: restorecon -v -R /home I don't think you would have seen this particular issue if you'd done a fresh installation. See also this question: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc3/index.html#id2963454 > other people. Otherwise I'll just have to turn off SELINUX myself, and > recommend the same to others when questions are asked about it. No, no, that's entirely the wrong approach. You were running into problems with Apache. It's very easy to turn off enforcement *just* for Apache. That's one of the great things about SELinux, is that it's very flexible. See this question in the FAQ: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc3/index.html#using-s-c-securitylevel I fully expect that a number of people will turn off SELinux enforcement for Apache; by far it is the most configurable and complex daemon we ship, and writing policy for what some people do with it could be difficult. But you don't want to give up protection for portmap, bind, etc. I also have written a specific Apache-SELinux guide that is pending review. I hope to get it published on fedora.redhat.com soon. Hopefully enough people reading it and keeping enforcement for Apache on will help stop the next Slapper worm. From florin at andrei.myip.org Tue Nov 9 18:36:59 2004 From: florin at andrei.myip.org (Florin Andrei) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:36:59 -0800 Subject: RedHat forks OpenSSH? In-Reply-To: <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> References: <20041108202344.334DD1BCC01@baragon.mindrot.org> <1099945609.15004.55.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1099958670.3804.17.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <4190225E.3060108@mindrot.org> Message-ID: <1100025419.31286.20.camel@stantz.corp.sgi.com> On Mon, 2004-11-08 at 17:50, Damien Miller wrote: > Some people have taken offence to my cross-posting, I don't understand > why It was quite emotional, albeit it's clear you made efforts to stay rational and even-minded. In any case, remember that the OpenSSH project is held in high esteem among the entire Open Source community, RedHat/Fedora included. You guys are doing an awesome job. But that doesn't mean everyone thinks alike, down to microscopic details. I think Red Hat removed that algorithm because it is questionable from a legal perspective. The simple inclusion of that source code might create unending legal issues. Remember, Red Hat is a commercial entity, it does not have an idealistic or a libertarian agenda. After all, the practical usefulness of that algorithm is limited at best. I agree with OpenSSH including that algorithm in the source tarball. That's fine for them. I agree with Red Hat removing that algorithm from the tarball. That makes sense for them too. Not all entities have similar agendas. "Thou shalt not enforce thy agenda upon thy neighbour." ;-) -- Florin Andrei http://florin.myip.org/ From smooge at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 18:44:22 2004 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen J. Smoogen) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:44:22 -0700 Subject: Summary of vulnerabilities with FC3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80d7e40904110910443e47be07@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:20:58 +0000 (GMT), Mark J Cox wrote: > Near the release time of each new distribution the Red Hat security team > go through all the security advisories for the past few years as well as > issues that affected others but not Red Hat to ensure that the new > distribution is up to date with security patches. We did this with FC3 a > few weeks ago and corrected most of the issues we found that were unfixed. > So this email is just really a FYI so we have the details stored for > future reference. > Will the following items listed as vulnerable be fixed in the near future? And what can be done to help? > CAN-2004-0081 VULNERABLE (openssl096b only, see bug 138365) > CAN-2004-0687 VULNERABLE (lesstif libxpm, see bug 135080) > CAN-2004-0687 VULNERABLE (lesstif libxpm, see bug 135081) > CAN-2004-0888 VULNERABLE (tetex, see bug 137476) > CAN-2004-0930 VULNERABLE (Samba, see bug 138326) > CAN-2004-0942 VULNERABLE (httpd, see bug 138065) > CAN-2004-0971 VULNERABLE (krb5, see bug 136307) > CAN-2004-0972 VULNERABLE (lvm, see bug 136309) > CAN-2004-0974 VULNERABLE (tetex, see bug 137966) > CAN-2004-0975 VULNERABLE (openssl, see bug 136303) > CAN-2004-0981 VULNERABLE (ImakeMagick, see bug 138385) > CAN-2004-0983 VULNERABLE (Ruby, see bug 138366) > CAN-2004-0990 VULNERABLE (gd, see bug 137247) There may be 2 more Ruby items that have been listed in the last 2 weeks. I do not know if they were added to the original CAN or added. -- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator From mr700 at mr700.cjb.net Tue Nov 9 19:36:56 2004 From: mr700 at mr700.cjb.net (Doncho N. Gunchev) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:36:56 +0200 Subject: media check message In-Reply-To: <20041109175826.GB2361@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100022292.31286.2.camel@stantz.corp.sgi.com> <20041109175826.GB2361@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200411092136.57156@-mr700> On 2004-11-09 (Tuesday) 19:58, Alan Cox wrote: > On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 09:44:53AM -0800, Florin Andrei wrote: > > This is true, yet incomplete. Sometimes it's the actual CD-ROM unit that > > is at fault. The installer should mention that as well. Example: > > > > "Or perhaps the CD-ROM unit needs cleaning or is deffective." > > Actually it should have been disabled, the media check in FC3 is broken > unless you burned the CD with padding. The ide-cd driver is broken and > FC uses ide-cd not ide-scsi (sanely for all sorts of other reasons). > I see the new kernels (at least from 2.6.8-1.624) have ide-scsi.ko, but there's nothing about it in the release notes. Without this message I would not even notice it... -- Regards, Doncho N. Gunchev Registered Linux User #291323 at counter.li.org GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/DA454F79 http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 684F 688B C508 C609 0371 5E0F A089 CB15 DA45 4F79 From kwade at redhat.com Tue Nov 9 20:05:04 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:05:04 -0800 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100024810.5472.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100024810.5472.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1100030704.3152.15426.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 10:26, Colin Walters wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 13:12 +0100, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I upgraded to FC3 this weekend. I always try and go with the defaults > > on a new install, because when fielding bug reports for my various > > projects I prefer to make the defaults work first so bug reporters and I > > have a common ground to work with. > > > > Since the default SELINUX policy is "targeted" I chose this, bracing > > myself :) > > > > My first task was getting all my locally hosted websites to run. > > > > I have a few virtualhosts in my /home/thomas/www directory. When > > starting apache, the service script complains about these directories > > missing. > > > > Please note that I have a separate /home partition on hda6; I don't know > > if this affects any policy (yet). > > Indeed, this is the root of the problem. Your /home partition isn't > labeled since it was carried over from an earlier installation, so it > gets the default_t type. Personally, I would have done: > > restorecon -v -R /home > > I don't think you would have seen this particular issue if you'd done a > fresh installation. > > See also this question: > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc3/index.html#id2963454 restoreceon -v -R /home is the best solution. fixfiles doesn't take a path as an option, although I thought it did in the past (which is why I had it in the FAQ). This answer in the FAQ will be updated to give the two answers, preferring restorecon for just relabeling a particular directory path, and fixfiles for ensuring that every file on the system is properly labeled. thx - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer a lemon is just a melon in disguise http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Tue Nov 9 22:00:36 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:00:36 -0600 Subject: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed In-Reply-To: <1100024810.5472.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <002601c4c6a7$8e7fe140$4801a8c0@C515816A> Does anyone know why the kernel source is not installed in Fedora Core distribution. It is necessary in a lot of cases to have to rebuild the kernel but the source is purposely left out of the installation. From ad+lists at uni-x.org Tue Nov 9 22:16:29 2004 From: ad+lists at uni-x.org (Alexander Dalloz) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:16:29 +0100 Subject: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed In-Reply-To: <002601c4c6a7$8e7fe140$4801a8c0@C515816A> References: <002601c4c6a7$8e7fe140$4801a8c0@C515816A> Message-ID: <1100038589.589.550.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Am Di, den 09.11.2004 schrieb Otto Haliburton um 23:00: > Does anyone know why the kernel source is not installed in Fedora Core > distribution. It is necessary in a lot of cases to have to rebuild the > kernel but the source is purposely left out of the installation. Please do not 'hijack' a foreign thread by replying to an unrelated list posting like you did. Then please check the list archive for the discussion. The kernel source is available as a SRC.RPM. See the FC3 release notes for more help too. Alexander -- Alexander Dalloz | Enger, Germany | new address - new key: 0xB366A773 legal statement: http://www.uni-x.org/legal.html Fedora GNU/Linux Core 2 (Tettnang) on Athlon kernel 2.6.8-1.521smp Serendipity 23:14:48 up 20 days, 20:54, load average: 0.30, 0.33, 0.33 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Tue Nov 9 22:39:55 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:39:55 -0600 Subject: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed In-Reply-To: <1100038589.589.550.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Message-ID: <003301c4c6ad$0cbf4500$4801a8c0@C515816A> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Alexander Dalloz > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 4:16 PM > To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core > Subject: Re: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed > > Am Di, den 09.11.2004 schrieb Otto Haliburton um 23:00: > > > Does anyone know why the kernel source is not installed in Fedora Core > > distribution. It is necessary in a lot of cases to have to rebuild the > > kernel but the source is purposely left out of the installation. > > Please do not 'hijack' a foreign thread by replying to an unrelated list > posting like you did. > > Then please check the list archive for the discussion. The kernel source > is available as a SRC.RPM. See the FC3 release notes for more help too. > > Alexander > > I don't know what you mean by 'hijack' that is besides the point. The discussion that I am trying to bring up has to do with an issue that often is comes as a complaint. The RPM does not install the source in the correct location from the src.rpm and quite often the first thing that is required in a upgrade or installation is to rebuild the kernel. The issue is one about Fedora core by the way as stated in the question. I wish that responses are to the question asked and if you need a clarification state that. There was no reply on the response I sent. From cra at WPI.EDU Tue Nov 9 22:52:31 2004 From: cra at WPI.EDU (Charles R. Anderson) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:52:31 -0500 Subject: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed In-Reply-To: <003301c4c6ad$0cbf4500$4801a8c0@C515816A> References: <1100038589.589.550.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <003301c4c6ad$0cbf4500$4801a8c0@C515816A> Message-ID: <20041109225231.GO2173@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 04:39:55PM -0600, Otto Haliburton wrote: > I don't know what you mean by 'hijack' that is besides the point. Don't "Reply" to a subject that is unrelated to your question. That causes the "In-Reply-To" header to refer to the old thread, causing threaded mail readers to display your new subject as part of the old thread. Instead, compose a new e-mail to start a new topic. > The discussion that I am trying to bring up has to do with an issue > that often is comes as a complaint. The RPM does not install the > source in the correct location from the src.rpm and quite often the Correct location for what? You can compile the kernel anywhere. I suppose you want /usr/src/glibc next, so you can recompile that too. From ad+lists at uni-x.org Tue Nov 9 22:53:30 2004 From: ad+lists at uni-x.org (Alexander Dalloz) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:53:30 +0100 Subject: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed In-Reply-To: <003301c4c6ad$0cbf4500$4801a8c0@C515816A> References: <003301c4c6ad$0cbf4500$4801a8c0@C515816A> Message-ID: <1100040810.589.562.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Am Di, den 09.11.2004 schrieb Otto Haliburton um 23:39: > I don't know what you mean by 'hijack' that is besides the point. The > discussion that I am trying to bring up has to do with an issue that often > is comes as a complaint. The RPM does not install the source in the correct > location from the src.rpm and quite often the first thing that is required > in a upgrade or installation is to rebuild the kernel. The issue is one > about Fedora core by the way as stated in the question. I wish that > responses are to the question asked and if you need a clarification state > that. There was no reply on the response I sent. To the term "thread hijacking": if you would set your list view into thread mode you would quickly see that your mail now appears as part of the discussion thread "first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions". I feel it is obvious not that good. See the header of your first posting and you'll find a In-Reply-To: <1100024810.5472.18.camel at nexus.verbum.private> reference which cause the thread mixture. Now to the real topic. Why on earth "quite often" a kernel rebuild is necessary? What do you mean with the "RPM does not install the source in the correct location"? Please read the release notes and grep the list archive for the discussion about only having a kernel SRC.RPM and not two RPMs both with the kernel source. The discussion is closed, not need to rewarm it. Alexander -- Alexander Dalloz | Enger, Germany | new address - new key: 0xB366A773 legal statement: http://www.uni-x.org/legal.html Fedora GNU/Linux Core 2 (Tettnang) on Athlon kernel 2.6.8-1.521smp Serendipity 23:47:30 up 20 days, 21:27, load average: 0.75, 0.71, 0.48 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Tue Nov 9 23:02:42 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:02:42 -0600 Subject: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed In-Reply-To: <1100040810.589.562.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Message-ID: <003c01c4c6b0$38126590$4801a8c0@C515816A> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Alexander Dalloz > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 4:54 PM > To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core > Subject: Re: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed > > Am Di, den 09.11.2004 schrieb Otto Haliburton um 23:39: > > > I don't know what you mean by 'hijack' that is besides the point. The > > discussion that I am trying to bring up has to do with an issue that > often > > is comes as a complaint. The RPM does not install the source in the > correct > > location from the src.rpm and quite often the first thing that is > required > > in a upgrade or installation is to rebuild the kernel. The issue is one > > about Fedora core by the way as stated in the question. I wish that > > responses are to the question asked and if you need a clarification > state > > that. There was no reply on the response I sent. > > To the term "thread hijacking": if you would set your list view into > thread mode you would quickly see that your mail now appears as part of > the discussion thread "first encounters with SELINUX, with some > suggestions". I feel it is obvious not that good. See the header of your > first posting and you'll find a > > In-Reply-To: <1100024810.5472.18.camel at nexus.verbum.private> > > reference which cause the thread mixture. > > Now to the real topic. Why on earth "quite often" a kernel rebuild is > necessary? What do you mean with the "RPM does not install the source in > the correct location"? > > Please read the release notes and grep the list archive for the > discussion about only having a kernel SRC.RPM and not two RPMs both with > the kernel source. The discussion is closed, not need to rewarm it. > > Alexander > > here is what I mean, the rpm installs the kernel to /usr/src/redhat, where in all old distribution it installed the source to /usr/src. It is agreed that the kernel can be built anywhere, but to stick the source under redhat is not a choice that I think fedora project wants to do. Storing the source quite often creates a situation where you do a rpn install and then the person can't locate the source. That is the complaint. And I get your point on the thread so this is the last response from me. From mattdm at mattdm.org Wed Nov 10 00:01:14 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:01:14 -0500 Subject: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed In-Reply-To: <003c01c4c6b0$38126590$4801a8c0@C515816A> References: <1100040810.589.562.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <003c01c4c6b0$38126590$4801a8c0@C515816A> Message-ID: <20041110000114.GA6644@jadzia.bu.edu> On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 05:02:42PM -0600, Otto Haliburton wrote: > here is what I mean, the rpm installs the kernel to /usr/src/redhat, where > in all old distribution it installed the source to /usr/src. It is agreed Actually, don't make it install there. Instead, set up a ~/.rpmmacros file in your own home directory as described at: Then, install the source RPM *not as root*, and build it in your own account. As others have said, please reference earlier discussion on this. If you need help setting up the buildroot, e-mail me off-list. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From shiva at sewingwitch.com Wed Nov 10 01:35:03 2004 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:35:03 -0800 Subject: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed In-Reply-To: <20041109225231.GO2173@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> References: <1100038589.589.550.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <003301c4c6ad$0cbf4500$4801a8c0@C515816A> <20041109225231.GO2173@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> Message-ID: <0B2CB4B19223AA840EFC483D@[10.0.0.4]> --On Tuesday, November 09, 2004 5:52 PM -0500 "Charles R. Anderson" wrote: > Don't "Reply" to a subject that is unrelated to your question. That > causes the "In-Reply-To" header to refer to the old thread, causing > threaded mail readers to display your new subject as part of the old > thread. Instead, compose a new e-mail to start a new topic. Also note the References: header, which lists all earlier messages in the thread. This can be used if the replied-to message isn't available, so that the message can still be linked into the thread. From mpeters at mac.com Wed Nov 10 02:59:35 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:59:35 +0000 Subject: jigdo distribution Message-ID: <1100055575l.3536l.6l@devel.mpeters.us> Recomondation for FC4 - make the distribution fetchable via jigdo. A big advantage of jigdo is it allows the user to use a local mirror to fetch the rpm's etc. that are on the iso's - without the local mirror needing to host iso files. The torrent works well for fetching fedora - and should certainly remain as a distribution option, but many people can not use torrent because of firewall issues or company/school policy. Since jigdo uses ftp/http and does not open ports for serving, that's not an issue. I don't know of jigdo works with DVD images, but by the time a mirror has packages, src packages, cd images, dvd images, that's a LOT of space it needs and it just seems that a smarter solution would be something like jigdo. Just my opinion - it works exceptionally well for Debian. From casimiro_barreto at uol.com.br Wed Nov 10 03:14:55 2004 From: casimiro_barreto at uol.com.br (Casimiro de Almeida Barreto) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:14:55 -0200 Subject: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed In-Reply-To: <003301c4c6ad$0cbf4500$4801a8c0@C515816A> References: <003301c4c6ad$0cbf4500$4801a8c0@C515816A> Message-ID: <1100056495.24206.13.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> Besides that, if you: rpm -ivh ... and then cd /usr/src/redhat/SOURCES you will find a linux-2.6.9.tar.bz2 and a lot of patches. So you do a tar -xjvf to the stuff and then cd linux-2.6.9 and apply the corresponding patches... after that a cp /boot/config-2.6.9-xxx .config, make gconfig, configure the stuff (hopefully just including needed modules), make bzImage && make modules && make modules_install and Bang !!! it does not compile (as in linux-2.6.9-1.667). Then you have some bit-brushing work to put things together... In my opinion, there's no problem if kernel sources are placed in the SRPM repositories, but: a) Why not install in /usr/src/linux-2.6.9-xxx ? b) Why not have the patches already applied ? c) It should compile cleanly... Regards, Casimiro Em Ter, 2004-11-09 ?s 16:39 -0600, Otto Haliburton escreveu: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- > > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Alexander Dalloz > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 4:16 PM > > To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core > > Subject: Re: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed > > > > Am Di, den 09.11.2004 schrieb Otto Haliburton um 23:00: > > > > > Does anyone know why the kernel source is not installed in Fedora Core > > > distribution. It is necessary in a lot of cases to have to rebuild the > > > kernel but the source is purposely left out of the installation. > > > > Please do not 'hijack' a foreign thread by replying to an unrelated list > > posting like you did. > > > > Then please check the list archive for the discussion. The kernel source > > is available as a SRC.RPM. See the FC3 release notes for more help too. > > > > Alexander > > > > > I don't know what you mean by 'hijack' that is besides the point. The > discussion that I am trying to bring up has to do with an issue that often > is comes as a complaint. The RPM does not install the source in the correct > location from the src.rpm and quite often the first thing that is required > in a upgrade or installation is to rebuild the kernel. The issue is one > about Fedora core by the way as stated in the question. I wish that > responses are to the question asked and if you need a clarification state > that. There was no reply on the response I sent. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ad+lists at uni-x.org Wed Nov 10 03:24:03 2004 From: ad+lists at uni-x.org (Alexander Dalloz) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:24:03 +0100 Subject: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed In-Reply-To: <1100056495.24206.13.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> References: <003301c4c6ad$0cbf4500$4801a8c0@C515816A> <1100056495.24206.13.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> Message-ID: <1100057043.589.619.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Am Mi, den 10.11.2004 schrieb Casimiro de Almeida Barreto um 4:14: > In my opinion, there's no problem if kernel sources are placed in the > SRPM repositories, but: > > a) Why not install in /usr/src/linux-2.6.9-xxx ? > b) Why not have the patches already applied ? > c) It should compile cleanly... > Casimiro Please read the past discussion. If you take the kernel SRC.RPM you can easily build a kernel sourcecode RPM from it which is exactly the same RPM we have up to FC2. You then have the desired source (with patches applied) below /usr/src/linux-2.6.x. Alexander -- Alexander Dalloz | Enger, Germany | new address - new key: 0xB366A773 legal statement: http://www.uni-x.org/legal.html Fedora GNU/Linux Core 2 (Tettnang) on Athlon kernel 2.6.8-1.521smp Serendipity 04:21:13 up 21 days, 2:00, load average: 1.23, 1.36, 1.21 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From markmc at redhat.com Wed Nov 10 08:20:04 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:20:04 +0000 Subject: Stateless Linux In-Reply-To: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> References: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <1100074804.3938.25.camel@blaa> Hi, Thanks for trying this stuff out. On Tue, 2004-11-09 at 02:14, Jason Powers wrote: > Anyway I'm here to mention an oddity in the documentation for Stateless. > On this page: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/stateless/sn-snapshot-setup.html > > it says to use the following command: > > stateless-snapshooter --new --protosystem DemoSystem > > since it's just a toy I'm actually using the name DemoSystem. However, > the --new and --protosystem had to be replaced with -n -p before it > would work. The error tells you very plainly that those are the > available switches. for some reason --list works just fine, as does -l. Yeah, it was a minor error in the argument handling in the scripts. See: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-January/msg00299.html You can get the latest version of the code from CVS. See: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/stateless/ Thanks, Mark. From giallu at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 09:22:13 2004 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:22:13 +0100 Subject: Stateless Linux In-Reply-To: <1100074804.3938.25.camel@blaa> References: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> <1100074804.3938.25.camel@blaa> Message-ID: Hi, I would like to play with this "toy" as well so, before starting, just a couple of questions: 1. are the stateless tools already "aligned" with FC3? 2. since we are talking about experimental funcionality, is it always advisable to get the lastest code from the CVS intead of using the pre-packaged rpms? thanks in advance Gianluca From buildsys at redhat.com Wed Nov 10 10:00:02 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 05:00:02 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041110 changes Message-ID: <200411101000.iAAA02F06908@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> From markmc at redhat.com Wed Nov 10 10:02:22 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:02:22 +0000 Subject: Stateless Linux In-Reply-To: References: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> <1100074804.3938.25.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1100080941.11730.4.camel@blaa> Hi, On Wed, 2004-11-10 at 09:22, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > Hi, > I would like to play with this "toy" as well so, before starting, just > a couple of questions: > > 1. are the stateless tools already "aligned" with FC3? The work was done on a development release of FC3 and should work with FC3, yes. > 2. since we are talking about experimental funcionality, is it always > advisable to get the lastest code from the CVS intead of using the > pre-packaged rpms? Its certainly not a bad idea to take check out the "sml" and "readonly-root" modules from CVS and build RPMs from there. Its fairly straightforward to do too - just "make dist" and copy the tarball and spec file to /usr/src/redhat and rebuild. Cheers, Mark. From barryn at pobox.com Wed Nov 10 10:50:48 2004 From: barryn at pobox.com (Barry K. Nathan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:50:48 -0800 Subject: Why kernel source is not in Distribution that is installed In-Reply-To: <1100056495.24206.13.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> References: <003301c4c6ad$0cbf4500$4801a8c0@C515816A> <1100056495.24206.13.camel@200-150-188-66.user.ajato.com.br> Message-ID: <20041110105048.GB1665@ip68-4-98-123.oc.oc.cox.net> On Wed, Nov 10, 2004 at 01:14:55AM -0200, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote: > and then cd /usr/src/redhat/SOURCES > > you will find a linux-2.6.9.tar.bz2 and a lot of patches. So you do a > tar -xjvf to the stuff Looks like you forgot to read the release notes (i.e. it's not working for you because you're not doing it correctly): > Change directory to /usr/src/redhat/SPECS/, and issue the following > command: > > rpmbuild -bp --target= kernel.spec > > (Where is the desired target architecture.) > > On a default RPM configuration, the kernel tree will be located in > /usr/src/redhat/BUILD/. -Barry K. Nathan From twaugh at redhat.com Wed Nov 10 12:49:58 2004 From: twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:49:58 +0000 Subject: Please test grep-2.5.1-36 In-Reply-To: <20041109144204.GP8596@redhat.com> References: <20041109144204.GP8596@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041110124958.GV8596@redhat.com> The first bug (of many, I expect) has been found and fixed, and grep-2.5.1-37 will appear in rawhide tomorrow. In the mean-time it can be found here: ftp://people.redhat.com/twaugh/tmp/grep/fedora-core-3/ Tim. */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cra at WPI.EDU Wed Nov 10 12:59:00 2004 From: cra at WPI.EDU (Charles R. Anderson) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:59:00 -0500 Subject: jigdo distribution In-Reply-To: <1100055575l.3536l.6l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100055575l.3536l.6l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <20041110125900.GB9547@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> See fedora.us jigdo packages: https://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=1252 On Wed, Nov 10, 2004 at 02:59:35AM +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > Recomondation for FC4 - make the distribution fetchable via jigdo. > A big advantage of jigdo is it allows the user to use a local mirror to > fetch the rpm's etc. that are on the iso's - without the local mirror > needing to host iso files. +1 After a development cycle, most mirrors will have rawhide with packages very close, if not identical, to the contents of the final ISOs. If a jigdo were distributed by Red Hat to the mirror sites beforehand, they could reassemble their own ISOs from the packages already on their local disk (with perhaps a few exceptions), greatly speeding up the process of preparing the mirror for release, with complete ISOs available, while reducing the load on Red Hat significantly. > The torrent works well for fetching fedora - and should certainly > remain as a distribution option, but many people can not use torrent > because of firewall issues or company/school policy. Since jigdo uses > ftp/http and does not open ports for serving, that's not an issue. Another excellent argument. > I don't know of jigdo works with DVD images, but by the time a mirror > has packages, src packages, cd images, dvd images, that's a LOT of > space it needs and it just seems that a smarter solution would be > something like jigdo. It should work just fine with DVD images, or any other image where the contents of the image are like "puzzle pieces" that fit into the larger image. From bpm at ec-group.com Wed Nov 10 15:45:43 2004 From: bpm at ec-group.com (Brian Millett) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:45:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: nscd gotcha Message-ID: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> My server at home uses a dyndns server to keep the current ip address uptodate. Well this morning, the lease expired and it got a new ip. No problem there. But I could not get to my mail any more. Strange. I checked to see what it was resolving to: [bpm]$ dig mail.momillett.org ; <<>> DiG 9.2.4 <<>> mail.momillett.org ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 47274 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;mail.momillett.org. IN A ;; ANSWER SECTION: mail.momillett.org. 42930 IN CNAME momillett.org. momillett.org. 46 IN A 65.65.192.189 ;; Query time: 1 msec ;; SERVER: 192.9.200.136#53(192.9.200.136) ;; WHEN: Wed Nov 10 08:23:15 2004 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 66 Ok, that is good, but when I tried to connect as a test, it did not resolv to the correct ip: [bpm]$ telnet mail.momillett.org 80 Trying 64.123.62.207... telnet: connect to address 64.123.62.207: Connection refused I was quite stumped until I saw (strace is nice) that a new service: nscd was running. Ok, so I restarted the nscd daemon, and still a problem. Ok, man pages..... Gee it was working as it should. There was not a negative request as the old addr had been reassigned and was alive. Only the name had been reassigned to a different ip. So, should nscd be updated when a 'host','dig', or 'nslookup' request is done? I am playing with the /etc/nscd.conf to tune it for my particular setup, but I was wondering what triggers a refresh, or update of the cached database? Also, there is not an entry to the bugzilla for nscd. Thanks. -- Brian Millett Enterprise Consulting Group "Shifts in paradigms (314) 205-9030 often cause nose bleeds." bpmATec-groupDOTcom Greg Glenn From laroche at redhat.com Wed Nov 10 15:49:31 2004 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:49:31 +0100 Subject: nscd gotcha In-Reply-To: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> References: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> Message-ID: <20041110154931.GA5963@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > I was quite stumped until I saw (strace is nice) that a new service: nscd > was running. Ok, so I restarted the nscd daemon, and still a problem. > Ok, man pages..... Gee it was working as it should. There was not a > negative request as the old addr had been reassigned and was alive. Only > the name had been reassigned to a different ip. > > So, should nscd be updated when a 'host','dig', or 'nslookup' request is > done? I am playing with the /etc/nscd.conf to tune it for my particular > setup, but I was wondering what triggers a refresh, or update of the > cached database? > > Also, there is not an entry to the bugzilla for nscd. I've seen the same, but also haven't digged into details. Also happens to me for a laptop after plugging into a new network. Want to check this in more detail. Only minor item I can add: "service nscd reload" doesn't help, but "service nscd reload" fixes it for me. Problem persists even if network setup changes (but /etc/resolv.conf is chattr +i). greetings, Florian La Roche From nphilipp at redhat.com Wed Nov 10 16:38:17 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:38:17 +0100 Subject: nscd gotcha In-Reply-To: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> References: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> Message-ID: <1100104697.3885.15.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Wed, 2004-11-10 at 09:45 -0600, Brian Millett wrote: > My server at home uses a dyndns server to keep the current ip address > uptodate. Well this morning, the lease expired and it got a new ip. No > problem there. But I could not get to my mail any more. Strange. I > checked to see what it was resolving to: > [bpm]$ dig mail.momillett.org > > ; <<>> DiG 9.2.4 <<>> mail.momillett.org > ;; global options: printcmd > ;; Got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 47274 > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 > > ;; QUESTION SECTION: > ;mail.momillett.org. IN A > > ;; ANSWER SECTION: > mail.momillett.org. 42930 IN CNAME momillett.org. > momillett.org. 46 IN A 65.65.192.189 > > ;; Query time: 1 msec > ;; SERVER: 192.9.200.136#53(192.9.200.136) > ;; WHEN: Wed Nov 10 08:23:15 2004 > ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 66 > > Ok, that is good, but when I tried to connect as a test, it did not resolv > to the correct ip: > [bpm]$ telnet mail.momillett.org 80 > Trying 64.123.62.207... > telnet: connect to address 64.123.62.207: Connection refused > > I was quite stumped until I saw (strace is nice) that a new service: nscd > was running. Ok, so I restarted the nscd daemon, and still a problem. > Ok, man pages..... Gee it was working as it should. There was not a > negative request as the old addr had been reassigned and was alive. Only > the name had been reassigned to a different ip. > > So, should nscd be updated when a 'host','dig', or 'nslookup' request is > done? I am playing with the /etc/nscd.conf to tune it for my particular > setup, but I was wondering what triggers a refresh, or update of the > cached database? I've just configured a static IP on my machine and the internal name server and /etc/hosts only reference this one ;-). > Also, there is not an entry to the bugzilla for nscd. That's because it is create from the glibc source RPM (there are only Bugzilla components for the source RPMs): nils at gibraltar:~> rpm -qi nscd [...] Group : System Environment/Daemons Source RPM: glibc-2.3.3-74.src.rpm [...] Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From alan at balclutha.org Wed Nov 10 17:38:09 2004 From: alan at balclutha.org (Alan Milligan) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 04:38:09 +1100 Subject: python 2.4 upgrade Message-ID: <41925201.3020904@balclutha.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, I noted with interest, the python 2.4 upgrade. I had hoped that bug request 120635 regarding integrating new python macros into rpm would have been addressed as part of these changes. Every spec file with a Python dependency has been individually modified to facilitate this upgrade, and each could have benefited from using the new macros. I do hope an opportunity has not been missed. Alan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBklIBCfroLk4EZpkRAlQBAKCd1HJRHnvw9YxQu49DvvuMSkSanACgncyA nb/2/Te0MpmC79JLjYtO6nA= =5WUf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sarantis at cnl.di.uoa.gr Wed Nov 10 17:58:16 2004 From: sarantis at cnl.di.uoa.gr (Sarantis Paskalis) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:58:16 +0200 Subject: nscd gotcha In-Reply-To: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> References: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> Message-ID: <20041110175816.GA16391@gallagher.di.uoa.gr> On Wed, Nov 10, 2004 at 09:45:43AM -0600, Brian Millett wrote: > My server at home uses a dyndns server to keep the current ip address > uptodate. Well this morning, the lease expired and it got a new ip. No > problem there. But I could not get to my mail any more. Strange. I > checked to see what it was resolving to: > [bpm]$ dig mail.momillett.org > I ran into a similar problem. It seems that nscd stores its cache persistently across restarts (and/or reboots). To clean its hosts cache, I had to run manually # nscd --invalidate hosts The man page is silent on this option. I found it, however, with nscd --help. -- Sarantis From n3npq at nc.rr.com Wed Nov 10 18:08:20 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:08:20 -0500 Subject: python 2.4 upgrade In-Reply-To: <41925201.3020904@balclutha.org> References: <41925201.3020904@balclutha.org> Message-ID: <41925914.3040702@nc.rr.com> Alan Milligan wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi, > > I noted with interest, the python 2.4 upgrade. > > I had hoped that bug request 120635 regarding integrating new python > macros into rpm would have been addressed as part of these changes. > > Every spec file with a Python dependency has been individually modified > to facilitate this upgrade, and each could have benefited from using the > new macros. > > I do hope an opportunity has not been missed. There is nothing at all stopping you (or Fedora) from configuring rpm in /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/macros, /etc/rpm/macros or ~/.rpmmacros if you wish. You can also add the definitions to your own package spec files. What stops adding to rpm default configuration -- aside from the instantly induced build failures with older versions of rpm -- is lack of confirmation that the macros at #120635 actually "work" with the thundering herd of python versions deployed, with variant multilib paths. I've asked python guys regarding retrieving /usr/lib or /usr/lib64 paths portably from python, and have no clear indication one way or the other of the Right Thing To Do. Get me confirmation that the changes work with python 2.[01234], and perhaps python 1.5, currently deployed and I will be happy to add default macros to rpm. Otherwise, it seems kinda pointless to add default macros that don't just "work" everywhere imho. 73 de Jeff From drepper at redhat.com Wed Nov 10 19:23:55 2004 From: drepper at redhat.com (Ulrich Drepper) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:23:55 -0800 Subject: nscd gotcha In-Reply-To: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> References: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> Message-ID: <41926ACB.30205@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Brian Millett wrote: > Ok, man pages..... Gee it was working as it should. There was not a > negative request as the old addr had been reassigned and was alive. Only > the name had been reassigned to a different ip. That's as it should be. The entry in the database will time out after a while and after reloading the new IP address is available. If one needs the change to take effect immediately, remove the hosts cache with nscd --invalidate=hosts If this is a frequent thing, disable nscd caching completely. But there is no bug, this is how nscd is supported to work. > So, should nscd be updated when a 'host','dig', or 'nslookup' request is > done? All these programs don't use the libc resolver at all, they have nothing whatsoever to do with nscd. By design, I might add. > I am playing with the /etc/nscd.conf to tune it for my particular > setup, but I was wondering what triggers a refresh, or update of the > cached database? Just reduce the positive-time-to-live value for hosts if the current one is too long for you. It is not in general. > Also, there is not an entry to the bugzilla for nscd. nscd is part of glibc. No need to file a bug since there is none. - -- ? Ulrich Drepper ? Red Hat, Inc. ? 444 Castro St ? Mountain View, CA ? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBkmrL2ijCOnn/RHQRAh1TAJ9rRZjDC+Kjgzgc4wCQNTCZyndRKQCgoVAB EpTAl+uah5DNIHmdAM80jWE= =RGvM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cmadams at hiwaay.net Wed Nov 10 19:34:23 2004 From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:34:23 -0600 Subject: nscd gotcha In-Reply-To: <41926ACB.30205@redhat.com> References: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> <41926ACB.30205@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041110193423.GD1061425@hiwaay.net> Once upon a time, Ulrich Drepper said: > Brian Millett wrote: > > I am playing with the /etc/nscd.conf to tune it for my particular > > setup, but I was wondering what triggers a refresh, or update of the > > cached database? > > Just reduce the positive-time-to-live value for hosts if the current one > is too long for you. It is not in general. How hard would it be to make nscd look at the DNS TTL for an RR an honor it? -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. From roland at redhat.com Wed Nov 10 19:37:08 2004 From: roland at redhat.com (Roland McGrath) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:37:08 -0800 Subject: nscd gotcha In-Reply-To: Chris Adams's message of Wednesday, 10 November 2004 13:34:23 -0600 <20041110193423.GD1061425@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: <200411101937.iAAJb8G4003200@magilla.sf.frob.com> > How hard would it be to make nscd look at the DNS TTL for an RR an honor it? It would require changing the ABI for nsswitch modules, which is what nscd uses. One of these is the nss_dns module, but nscd's work is generic to whatever flavors you configure in /etc/nsswitch.conf, so it caches results from files, nis, ldap, whatever. The interface we have now for these modules does not have a way to give back extra information with the answer. From buildsys at redhat.com Wed Nov 10 19:54:57 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:54:57 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041110 changes Message-ID: <200411101954.iAAJsvs32356@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> From buildsys at redhat.com Wed Nov 10 19:56:38 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:56:38 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041110 changes Message-ID: <200411101956.iAAJuck02026@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> From dax at gurulabs.com Wed Nov 10 22:59:40 2004 From: dax at gurulabs.com (Dax Kelson) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:59:40 -0700 Subject: nscd gotcha In-Reply-To: <20041110193423.GD1061425@hiwaay.net> References: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> <41926ACB.30205@redhat.com> <20041110193423.GD1061425@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: <1100127580.4692.5.camel@mentorng.gurulabs.com> On Wed, 2004-11-10 at 13:34 -0600, Chris Adams wrote: > Once upon a time, Ulrich Drepper said: > > Brian Millett wrote: > > > I am playing with the /etc/nscd.conf to tune it for my particular > > > setup, but I was wondering what triggers a refresh, or update of the > > > cached database? > > > > Just reduce the positive-time-to-live value for hosts if the current one > > is too long for you. It is not in general. > > How hard would it be to make nscd look at the DNS TTL for an RR an honor > it? You can use nscd but turn off caching of DNS queries by editing the /etc/nscd.conf. Change: enable-cache hosts yes To: enable-cache hosts no You can also leave it caching, but tweak the TTLs in the config as well. This thread is funny. I first ran into nscd DNS caching issues on Solaris 2.5 in 1996. This fix I just posted worked back then too. Dax Kelson Guru Labs From buildsys at redhat.com Wed Nov 10 23:10:10 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:10:10 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041110 changes Message-ID: <200411102310.iAANAA012113@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: abiword-1:2.0.14-1 ------------------ * Tue Nov 09 2004 Caolan McNamara - 1:2.0.14-1 - bump to latest stable version cpio-2.5-10 ----------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Peter Vrabec - fixed "cpio -oH ustar (or tar) saves bad mtime date after Jan 10 2004" (#114580) * Mon Nov 01 2004 Peter Vrabec - support large files > 2GB (#105617) * Thu Oct 21 2004 Peter Vrabec - fix dependencies in spec docbook-style-xsl-1.67.0-1 -------------------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Tim Waugh 1.67.0-1 - 1.67.0. dosfstools-2.8-16 ----------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Martin Stransky 2.8-16 - add check for minimum count of clusters in FAT16 and FAT32 epiphany-1.4.4-6 ---------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti - 1.4.4-6 - Add docs firefox-0:1.0-1 --------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Christopher Aillon 0:1.0-1 - Firefox 1.0 gdb-6.1post-1.20040607.48 ------------------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Jeff Johnston 1.200400607.48 - Expose $base, $allocate constructors and $delete, $base destructors for breakpoints. * Tue Nov 09 2004 Andrew Cagney 1.200400607.47 - Enable PPC CFI. * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeff Johnston 1.200400607.46 - Bump up release number glibc-2.3.3-76 -------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-76 - update from CVS - fix regcomp crash (#138439) - fix ftell{,o,o64} (#137885) - robustification of nscd to cope with corrupt databases (#137140) - fix NPTL with pthread_exit immediately after pthread_create (BZ #530) - some regex optimizations grep-2.5.1-37 ------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Tim Waugh 2.5.1-37 - Prevent false matches when DFA is disabled (bug #138558). gstreamer-0.8.7-6 ----------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Colin Walters 0.8.7-6 - Add initial lib64 patch. * Tue Oct 26 2004 Colin Walters 0.8.7-5 - Do not override docdir (126860) - Remove datadir/gstreamer-0.8/doc from files list * Wed Oct 20 2004 Colin Walters 0.8.7-4 - Add URI escaping patch from Ronald (136507) gthumb-2.6.0.1-2 ---------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti 2.6.0.1-2 - Use upstream desktop file, it has translations and mime hwdata-0.147-1 -------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Bill Nottingham - 0.147-1 - update usb.ids (#138533) - migrate dpt_i2o to i2o_block (#138603) * Tue Nov 09 2004 Bill Nottingham - 0.146-1 - update pci.ids (#138233) - add Apple monitors (#138481) java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-0:1.4.2.0-14jpp ------------------------------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Thomas Fitzsimmons - 0:1.4.2.0-14jpp - Remove upstream references in java wrapper output. * Tue Nov 09 2004 Thomas Fitzsimmons 0:1.4.2.0-12jpp - Define java.version in java wrapper script. libexif-0.5.12-4 ---------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Matthias Saou - Use %find_lang macro. - Add %doc files, including mandatory copy of the LGPL license. - Use -j4 - Improve the descriptions libidn-0.5.10-1 --------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Joe Orton 0.5.10-1 - update to 0.5.10 - buildroot cleanup fix (Robert Scheck) libselinux-1.19.1-1 ------------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19.1-1 - Update from upstream, fix setsebool -P segfault * Fri Nov 05 2004 Steve Grubb 1.18.1-5 - Add a patch from upstream. Fixes signed/unsigned issues, and incomplete structure copy. libxml2-2.6.16-5 ---------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Daniel Veillard - upstream release 2.6.16 see http://xmlsoft.org/news.html * Thu Jan 02 2003 Daniel Veillard - integrated drv_libxml2 xml.sax driver from St?phane Bidoul - provides the new XmlTextReader interfaces based on C# XML APIs * Wed Oct 23 2002 Daniel Veillard - revamped the spec file, cleaned up some rpm building problems mktemp-2:1.5-21 --------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Than Ngo 2:1.5-21 - bump release and rebuilt nautilus-2.8.1-5 ---------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti - 2.8.1-5 - Remove eog dependency. The bonobo component is no more used. * Mon Oct 18 2004 Marco Pesenti Gritti - 2.8.1-4 - #135824 Fix throbber position * Fri Oct 15 2004 Alexander Larsson - 2.8.1-3 - Slightly less bad error dialog when there is no handler for a file. Not ideal, but this change doesn't change any strings. openoffice.org-1.1.2-11.7 ------------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Dan Williams - 1.1.2-11 - #rh120055# enable .doc mscodec backport for 1.1.2 (Caolan) - #rh136907# Wrong colors in openoffice menubars - #rh106548# Openoffice 1.1 places '.' on LD_LIBRARY_PATH (Caolan) - #rh137281# OpenOffice crashes due to "lack of memory" (Caolan) - #rh137335# OOo should not depend on evolution-devel - #rh137854# Japanese document from Windows is heavily broken - #rh137799# German spell checker does not work - #rh137741# Warnings about dictionary list corruption on startup - #rh137307# Cannot show hidden columns in calc - #rh137977# Open Office failes to recognise TXT datasource after upgrade - #rh118742# Templates/wizards in Polish language not working - #rh123758# Writer does not fallback to english for Index templates - #rh137395# [x86_64][OOo] installation of OpenOffice.org 1.1.2 failed - #rh102287# Prelink failures with openoffice (Caolan) - #rh137487# (partial) Norwegian translation includes som german texts - #rh137969# crashes openoffice-1.1.2-10 under certain circumstances (Caolan) - #rh129719# (partial) Incorporate updated Gujarati translation - #rh107298# Remove File->Autopilots->Report menu for NoJava builds (Caolan) - #rh110934# OpenOffice Writer locks up when pasting image (Caolan) - #rh120696# splash window has title "untitled window" (Caolan) - #rh138317# Printer setting is scrambled for Japanese env - Change naming schemes so upgrades work (ex FC2 -> FC3) even with the same NVR on both OS versions php-5.0.2-7 ----------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Joe Orton 5.0.2-7 - truncate changelog at 4.3.1-1 - merge from 4.3.x package: - enable mime_magic extension and Require: file (#130276) * Mon Nov 08 2004 Joe Orton 5.0.2-6 - fix dom/sqlite enable/without confusion * Mon Nov 08 2004 Joe Orton 5.0.2-5 - fix phpize installation for lib64 platforms - add fix for segfault in variable parsing introduced in 5.0.2 pyOpenSSL-0.6-1.p23.1 --------------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 0.6-1.p23.1 - rebuild qt-1:3.3.3-11 ------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Than Ngo 1:3.3.3-11 - apply patch to fix fullscreen problem - remove html documents duplicate #135696 rhnlib-1.8-6.p23.fc3.1 ---------------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 1.8-6.p23.fc3.1 - rebuild rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041110 --------------------------- samba-0:3.0.8-3 --------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Jay Fenlason 3.0.8-3 - Include the corrected docs tarball, and use it instead of the obsolete docs from the upstream 3.0.8 tarball. - Update the logfiles patch to work with the updated docs. selinux-policy-strict-1.19.1-2 ------------------------------ * Wed Nov 10 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-2 - Allow httpd to read bin_t lnk_files * Tue Nov 09 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-1 - Update from NSA * Mon Nov 08 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.2-4 - Add /dev/pmu and privoxy fixes selinux-policy-targeted-1.19.1-2 -------------------------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-2 - Allow httpd to read bin_t lnk_files * Tue Nov 09 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19.1-1 - Update to latest from upstream sound-juicer-0.5.14-4 --------------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Colin Walters 0.5.14-4 - Add sound-juicer-idle-safety.patch (bug 137847) subversion-1.1.1-3 ------------------ * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.1.1-3 - rebuild against python 2.4 thunderbird-0:0.9-1 ------------------- * Fri Nov 05 2004 Christopher Aillon 0.9.0-1 - Update to 0.9 usermode-1.75-1 --------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Jindrich Novy 1.75-1 - make pam-panel-icon using localized strings (#138609) - update translations - fix usermount to use "-I" option only for vfat and msdos fs - fix Makefile.am to not to use "Release" from spec to name dist tarballs * Wed Oct 20 2004 Jindrich Novy 1.74-1 - add patch from Mathew Miller (mattdm at mattdm.org) to use own user's password instead of root's in authentization (the user must be a member of specific group to enable it) * Mon Oct 04 2004 Jindrich Novy 1.73-1 - add support to configure.in for more languages - update translations from upstream - generate build scripts by autogen.sh vte-0.11.11-13 -------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Ray Strode 0.11.11-13 - Don't copy blocks; use pointers to block array directly. (based on the debugging efforts of Egmont Koblinger , bug 135537). xscreensaver-1:4.18-9 --------------------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Ray Strode 1:4.18-7 - Get rid of old crufty /usr/share/control-center/ tree (bug 114692) From mr700 at mr700.cjb.net Wed Nov 10 22:38:59 2004 From: mr700 at mr700.cjb.net (Doncho N. Gunchev) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 00:38:59 +0200 Subject: jigdo distribution In-Reply-To: <20041110125900.GB9547@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> References: <1100055575l.3536l.6l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041110125900.GB9547@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> Message-ID: <200411110038.59531@-mr700> On 2004-11-10 (Wednesday) 14:59, Charles R. Anderson wrote: > After a development cycle, most mirrors will have rawhide with > packages very close, if not identical, to the contents of the final > ISOs. ?If a jigdo were distributed by Red Hat to the mirror sites > beforehand, they could reassemble their own ISOs from the packages > already on their local disk (with perhaps a few exceptions), greatly > speeding up the process of preparing the mirror for release, with > complete ISOs available, while reducing the load on Red Hat > significantly. And all users/testers who run/have rawhide too :) +1 -- Regards, Doncho N. Gunchev Registered Linux User #291323 at counter.li.org GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/DA454F79 http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 684F 688B C508 C609 0371 5E0F A089 CB15 DA45 4F79 From drepper at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 05:23:26 2004 From: drepper at redhat.com (Ulrich Drepper) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:23:26 -0800 Subject: nscd gotcha In-Reply-To: <20041110193423.GD1061425@hiwaay.net> References: <56966.12.41.112.51.1100101543.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> <41926ACB.30205@redhat.com> <20041110193423.GD1061425@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: <4192F74E.7040101@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chris Adams wrote: > How hard would it be to make nscd look at the DNS TTL for an RR an honor > it? It already does this for getaddrinfo lookups (the only ones which should ever be made). - -- ? Ulrich Drepper ? Red Hat, Inc. ? 444 Castro St ? Mountain View, CA ? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBkvdO2ijCOnn/RHQRAmZvAKDN7n6QRI1sB36vVxkvH1nhtjx3TQCfW2l6 UCcvJF2k0mqj8eMr7JVRuNM= =mOr6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From petersen at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 07:27:09 2004 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:27:09 +0900 Subject: Emacs cvs snapshot packages available Message-ID: <4193144D.4090407@redhat.com> I finally got round to packaging a snapshot of current development Emacs from CVS. Noone knows when the next actual release of Emacs will be, but there are many new features and changes: improved utf-8 and gtk2 support in particular. See http://people.redhat.com/petersen/emacs/ for more details. Enjoy and please report any problems directly to me (ie not to bugzilla or the emacs-devel list:), Jens From tadej.janez at tadej.hicsalta.si Thu Nov 11 10:05:27 2004 From: tadej.janez at tadej.hicsalta.si (Tadej =?iso-8859-2?Q?Jane=BE?=) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:05:27 +0100 Subject: Java status for FC4? Message-ID: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, I noticed a bunch of new Java packages added to rawhide on 6th of November, so the following question came to my mind: Is FC4 geared towards full scale Java adoption? How does that relate to the jpackage efforts (which are more distro-independent, I think)? Lastly, new packages also include Java bindings for gtk, libgnome, libglade and gconf, so does that mean we can expect desktop applications written in Java being added to FC in the future? Thanks, tadej -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Thu Nov 11 10:10:32 2004 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:10:32 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Getting install time for an RPM Message-ID: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dear all, I have always wondered (setting here waiting for FC3 to install) how the install time for an RPM is calculated. Would anyone like to tell me ;-) - -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1467 624141 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBkzqYeWseh9tzvqgRAgYPAJ9rJZ+UoMP15uLTMe4SAbpuJfzTPgCgqdks XjmmpBwkTCgY0hXIlxehQL8= =NRr6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From arjanv at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 10:16:04 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:16:04 +0100 Subject: Getting install time for an RPM In-Reply-To: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 10:10 +0000, Gavin Henry wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Dear all, > > I have always wondered (setting here waiting for FC3 to install) how the > install time for an RPM is calculated. It involves the square root of the median of the imaginary and real parts of the complex number that is composed of the MAC address and MHz of your cpu. Or maybe it just sees how many megabytes have been done so far and extrapolates based on that (with a fixed added time added to compensate for some fixed overhead) (just as a side note; it's rumored that for OS/2, IBM researchers actually tried to map "feeling" of time as opposed to wallclock time in their install progress estimator, and ended up with a logarithmic scale, in the beginning people are still patient while near the end they loose patentience, so near the end visible progress needs to go faster for the same amount of wallclock progress) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Thu Nov 11 10:16:07 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:16:07 +0100 Subject: Java status for FC4? In-Reply-To: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le jeudi 11 novembre 2004 ? 11:05 +0100, Tadej Jane? a ?crit : > Hi, > I noticed a bunch of new Java packages added to rawhide on 6th of > November, so the following question came to my mind: > Is FC4 geared towards full scale Java adoption? > How does that relate to the jpackage efforts (which are more > distro-independent, I think)? The new packages should use jpackage as upstream source, with some native gcj goodness thrown in as an overlay (in separate packages) (note people work on jpp 1.6 now which should be released anytime soon, so the packages themselves are not the jpp 1.5 ones) Cheers, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Thu Nov 11 10:21:00 2004 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:21:00 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Getting install time for an RPM In-Reply-To: <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Arjan van de Ven said: > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 10:10 +0000, Gavin Henry wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> Dear all, >> >> I have always wondered (setting here waiting for FC3 to install) how the >> install time for an RPM is calculated. > > It involves the square root of the median of the imaginary and real > parts of the complex number that is composed of the MAC address and MHz > of your cpu. So do I need to convert the MAC address from Hex first? What angle do I use for the imaginary number also? > > Or maybe it just sees how many megabytes have been done so far and > extrapolates based on that (with a fixed added time added to compensate > for some fixed overhead) Hpw does it know how many megs have pasted? > > (just as a side note; it's rumored that for OS/2, IBM researchers > actually tried to map "feeling" of time as opposed to wallclock time in > their install progress estimator, and ended up with a logarithmic scale, > in the beginning people are still patient while near the end they loose > patentience, so near the end visible progress needs to go faster for the > same amount of wallclock progress) > > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Thu Nov 11 10:24:30 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:24:30 +0100 Subject: Emacs cvs snapshot packages available In-Reply-To: <4193144D.4090407@redhat.com> References: <4193144D.4090407@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100168670.30400.4.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le jeudi 11 novembre 2004 ? 16:27 +0900, Jens Petersen a ?crit : > I finally got round to packaging a snapshot of current > development Emacs from CVS. Noone knows when the next > actual release of Emacs will be, but there are many > new features and changes: improved utf-8 > and gtk2 support in particular. > > See > > http://people.redhat.com/petersen/emacs/ > > for more details. > > Enjoy and please report any problems directly to me > (ie not to bugzilla or the emacs-devel list:), Setting up Repo: emacs-cvs-testing http://people.redhat.com/petersen/emacs/current/i386/RPMS.testing/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] IOError: HTTP Error 404: Not Found Trying other mirror. Cannot open/read repomd.xml file for repository: emacs-cvs-testing failure: repodata/repomd.xml from emacs-cvs-testing: [Errno 256] No more mirrors to try. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From arjanv at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 10:24:55 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:24:55 +0100 Subject: Getting install time for an RPM In-Reply-To: <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 10:21:00AM -0000, Gavin Henry wrote: > Arjan van de Ven said: > > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 10:10 +0000, Gavin Henry wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >> Hash: SHA1 > >> > >> Dear all, > >> > >> I have always wondered (setting here waiting for FC3 to install) how the > >> install time for an RPM is calculated. > > > > It involves the square root of the median of the imaginary and real > > parts of the complex number that is composed of the MAC address and MHz > > of your cpu. > > So do I need to convert the MAC address from Hex first? What angle do I > use for the imaginary number also? ah but that's the hard question, the angle between the moon and mars, at midnight of the last tuesday for which the (day of month + number of month) was an even number. > How does it know how many megs have pasted? each RPM has in the header the size of the (unpacked) payload, and the installer just keeps track of the rpms that are done vs the total. From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Thu Nov 11 10:35:11 2004 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:35:11 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Getting install time for an RPM In-Reply-To: <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com><1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org><45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <46450.193.195.148.66.1100169311.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Arjan van de Ven said: > On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 10:21:00AM -0000, Gavin Henry wrote: >> Arjan van de Ven said: >> > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 10:10 +0000, Gavin Henry wrote: >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> >> >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> I have always wondered (setting here waiting for FC3 to install) how >> the >> >> install time for an RPM is calculated. >> > >> > It involves the square root of the median of the imaginary and real >> > parts of the complex number that is composed of the MAC address and >> MHz >> > of your cpu. >> >> So do I need to convert the MAC address from Hex first? What angle do I >> use for the imaginary number also? > > ah but that's the hard question, the angle between the moon and mars, at > midnight of the last tuesday for which the (day of month + number of > month) > was an even number. Angle between the moon and mars from which point on each? Center points I presume? Midnight on which Tuesday? Tuesday 27th Jan(1) = 28 Tuesday 24th Feb(2) = 26 Tuesday 25th May(5) = 30 Tuesday 27th Jul(7) = 34 Tuesday 26th Oct(10) = 36 Tuesday 28th Dec(12) = 40 > >> How does it know how many megs have pasted? > > each RPM has in the header the size of the (unpacked) payload, and the > installer just keeps track of the rpms that are done vs the total. Got ya :-) > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBk0BfeWseh9tzvqgRAhVjAJ445JytEqVGV180ppzzp4hzbJgJawCglsze 9kuUJswbch03pd9GVneFSBc= =gmDn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dwmw2 at infradead.org Thu Nov 11 11:42:22 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:42:22 +0000 Subject: Emacs cvs snapshot packages available In-Reply-To: <4193144D.4090407@redhat.com> References: <4193144D.4090407@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100173342.8191.1371.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 16:27 +0900, Jens Petersen wrote: > http://people.redhat.com/petersen/emacs/ Absent PPC builds :( -- dwmw2 From avibrazil at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 11:52:12 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:52:12 -0200 Subject: Java status for FC4? In-Reply-To: <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: OK, so how can I have Java (not GCJ) installed in FC3 in the most straight forward way. I'm expecting a 1 step response like: - Do this: rpm -Uvh http://blabla.jpackage.blabla/blabla/something.rpm Regards, Avi On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:16:07 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le jeudi 11 novembre 2004 ? 11:05 +0100, Tadej Jane? a ?crit : > > Hi, > > I noticed a bunch of new Java packages added to rawhide on 6th of > > November, so the following question came to my mind: > > Is FC4 geared towards full scale Java adoption? > > How does that relate to the jpackage efforts (which are more > > distro-independent, I think)? > > The new packages should use jpackage as upstream source, with some > native gcj goodness thrown in as an overlay (in separate packages) > > (note people work on jpp 1.6 now which should be released anytime soon, > so the packages themselves are not the jpp 1.5 ones) > > Cheers, > > -- > Nicolas Mailhot > > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > > > From mandreiana at rdslink.ro Thu Nov 11 12:01:50 2004 From: mandreiana at rdslink.ro (Marius Andreiana) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:01:50 +0200 Subject: Getting install time for an RPM In-Reply-To: <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100174511.4541.14.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 11:24 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > > It involves the square root of the median of the imaginary and real > > > parts of the complex number that is composed of the MAC address and MHz > > > of your cpu. > > > > So do I need to convert the MAC address from Hex first? What angle do I > > use for the imaginary number also? > > ah but that's the hard question, the angle between the moon and mars, at > midnight of the last tuesday for which the (day of month + number of month) > was an even number. I have always wondered why the installer asks me in what city (timezone) the server is. This is why, so it can tell the angle as seen by me! Thanks for enlightenment -- Marius Andreiana Galuna - Solutii Linux in Romania http://www.galuna.ro From carwyn at carwyn.com Thu Nov 11 12:11:14 2004 From: carwyn at carwyn.com (Carwyn Edwards) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:11:14 +0000 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On 11 Nov 2004, at 11:52, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > I'm expecting a 1 step response like: > > - Do this: rpm -Uvh http://blabla.jpackage.blabla/blabla/something.rpm > You're not going to get one (yet). You can either: 1. Pull down Sun's RPM and install that (not recommended). .. or .. 2. Head over to http://jpackage.org and RTFM (recommended). JPackage 1.5 will sit quite happily on FC3 and can then be replaced with JPackage 1.6 when that comes out. Carwyn From ndbecker2 at verizon.net Thu Nov 11 12:14:58 2004 From: ndbecker2 at verizon.net (Neal D. Becker) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:14:58 -0500 Subject: unionfs? Message-ID: The new linuxjournal has an article on a unionfs implementation. It sounds like it would be a great addition. Only problem, the article doesn't seem to have any link to the code. Anyone have any opinions on this? From tjarls at iee.lu Thu Nov 11 12:28:49 2004 From: tjarls at iee.lu (Charles Lopes) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:28:49 +0100 Subject: Emacs cvs snapshot packages available In-Reply-To: <1100173342.8191.1371.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> References: <4193144D.4090407@redhat.com> <1100173342.8191.1371.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> Message-ID: <41935B01.4030504@iee.lu> David Woodhouse wrote: >On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 16:27 +0900, Jens Petersen wrote: > > >> http://people.redhat.com/petersen/emacs/ >> >> > >Absent PPC builds :( > > > Present SRPMS :) From buildsys at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 12:53:07 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:53:07 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041111 changes Message-ID: <200411111253.iABCr7f01671@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: MagicPoint-1.11b-2 ------------------ * Thu Nov 11 2004 Akira TAGOH - 1.11b-2 - magicpoint-1.11b-fix-undefined-operation.patch: applied to fix a gcc warning. (#137527) bash-3.0-20 ----------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Tim Waugh 3.0-20 - Patchlevel 16. * Mon Nov 01 2004 Tim Waugh - Patchlevel 15. * Tue Oct 19 2004 Tim Waugh 3.0-17 - Patchlevel 14. - No longer need brace patch. gcc-3.4.3-2 ----------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.3-2 - make _Unwind_* symbols in libgcc_s.so.1 unversioned to match the "IA-64 Linux ABI" - fix ia64 unwind info generation (Jim Wilson, David Mosberger, #138217, PRs target/13158, target/18010) - kill the alternatives stuff for libgcj (Thomas Fitzsimmons) * Sun Nov 07 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.3-1 - update from gcc-3_4-branch - GCC 3.4.3 release - PRs 18004, bootstrap/15747, bootstrap/17684, c++/13560, c++/15172, c++/17132, c++/18020, c++/18093, c++/18140, libstdc++/16612, middle-end/18129, other/17783, other/18138, other/18186, rtl-optimization/17581, rtl-optimization/18084, target/17317 - with -D_GLIBCXX_FULLY_DYNAMIC_STRING, STL should now avoid _S_empty_rep_storage (#135268) - don't ICE when cc1 is called on a non-existent source file (Jim Wilson) - add %doc COPYING{,.LIB} * Tue Nov 02 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.2-9 - allow enums with mode attribute (if mode is integral; PR c/18282) gdm-1:2.6.0.5-7 --------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Ray Strode 1:2.6.0.5-7 - Make desktop file symlink instead of absolute (bug 104390) - Add flexiserver back to menus libunwind-0.97-6 ---------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Jeff Johnston 0.97.6 - Bump up release number redhat-artwork-0.120-1.2 ------------------------ * Thu Nov 11 2004 Alexander Larsson - 0.120-1.2 - Fix broken bluecurve icons (#138544) rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041111 --------------------------- ruby-1.8.1-9 ------------ * Wed Nov 10 2004 Akira TAGOH - 1.8.1-9 - ruby-1.8.1-cgi-dos.patch: security fix [CAN-2004-0983] - ruby-1.8.1-cgi_session_perms.patch: security fix [CAN-2004-0755] selinux-policy-strict-1.19.1-3 ------------------------------ * Wed Nov 10 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-3 - Cleanup of Dovecot and squirrelmail setools-1.5.1-3 --------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Dan Walsh 1.5.1-3 - Add badtcl patch from Tresys. shadow-utils-2:4.0.3-40 ----------------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Adrian Havill 2:4.0.3-40 - fix %patch16 bad paren grouping in goodname() check (#138632) - don't apply %patch15 if WITH_SELINUX is false xscreensaver-1:4.18-10 ---------------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Ray Strode -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 | There is nothing at all stopping you (or Fedora) from configuring rpm in | /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/macros, | /etc/rpm/macros or ~/.rpmmacros if you wish. You can also add the | definitions to your own | package spec files. | Of course that's what we've already done. However the full power of this is only felt when a significant number of Python spec files take advantage of the same macros. The community cannot work with what is yet to be published. We actually had this reflected in ALL of our RH9 Python specs but the only avenue to contribute this work now is to agitate for change on a mailing list... | What stops adding to rpm default configuration -- aside from the | instantly induced build | failures with older versions of rpm This cannot be so. No spec file is yet to reference these 'new' macros. | I've asked python guys regarding retrieving /usr/lib or /usr/lib64 paths | portably from python, | and have no clear indication one way or the other of the Right Thing To Do. Harold Hoyer's contributed these multilib functions and I assume he's thought quite carefully about them. In the unlikely event of a macro not working in a specific instance, the packager would surely not use it ... | | Get me confirmation that the changes work with python 2.[01234], and | perhaps python 1.5, | currently deployed and I will be happy to add default macros to rpm. This is a very moot point, and one that I see many people here contending with in various forms across a range of applications. While RH itself is obliged to support many code bases, Fedora doesn't necessarily need to do so! Anchoring Fedora with the rest of RH is surely against the spirit of it's conception, and many of us would be concerned about continued participation (if you could call it that) in the project on that basis. Yes RH needs to support this, but not Fedora. That is what source code control, branches etc is about. Using this arguement as a basis to dictate what's in and what's out sucks! | Otherwise, it | seems kinda pointless to add default macros that don't just "work" | everywhere imho. Come now, even you cannot believe it can be that hard for a group of hard-core Python programmers to sit down and agree upon and publish four macros! Alan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBk3WUCfroLk4EZpkRAodyAJ9ZODi6xnSRFQTo4J0mKIiXInEHrwCfchlh nfk1BEnMbWr9l4a1dYL6fmw= =dkCP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From markdrago at mail.com Thu Nov 11 14:26:02 2004 From: markdrago at mail.com (Mark Drago) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:26:02 -0500 Subject: unionfs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100183161.30796.3.camel@intern.int.bascom.com> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 07:14, Neal D. Becker wrote: > The new linuxjournal has an article on a unionfs implementation. It sounds > like it would be a great addition. Only problem, the article doesn't seem > to have any link to the code. > > Anyone have any opinions on this? I think it's pretty neat. Here's a link: http://www.fsl.cs.sunysb.edu/project-unionfs.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From NOS at Utel.no Thu Nov 11 14:26:56 2004 From: NOS at Utel.no (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Nils_O=2E_Sel=E5sdal=22?=) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:26:56 +0100 Subject: unionfs? In-Reply-To: <000901c4c7ea$3e6be6b0$14aaa8c0@utelsystems.local> References: <000901c4c7ea$3e6be6b0$14aaa8c0@utelsystems.local> Message-ID: <419376B0.3060809@Utel.no> Neal D. Becker wrote: > The new linuxjournal has an article on a unionfs implementation. It sounds > like it would be a great addition. Only problem, the article doesn't seem > to have any link to the code. > > Anyone have any opinions on this? http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/ (Sorry, couldn't resist) -- Nils O. Sel?sdal www.utelsystems.com From avibrazil at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 14:38:35 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:38:35 -0300 Subject: Getting install time for an RPM In-Reply-To: <1100174511.4541.14.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100174511.4541.14.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> Message-ID: Why 'rpm -Uvh' or 'yum install' seems faster in FC3 ? Why KDE is waaaaaay faster than FC2 ? Why now my Cisco wireless works (after some tweeks) ? What was improved ? From symbiont at berlios.de Thu Nov 11 14:44:40 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:44:40 +0800 Subject: python 2.4 upgrade In-Reply-To: <41925201.3020904@balclutha.org> References: <41925201.3020904@balclutha.org> Message-ID: <200411112244.40655.symbiont@berlios.de> On Thursday 11 November 2004 01:38, Alan Milligan wrote: > I had hoped that bug request 120635 regarding integrating new python > macros into rpm would have been addressed as part of these changes. Just some feedback about the macros ... (naming convention; nothing about whether they should be in rpm.) %pythonprefix - seems overkill; %{_prefix} will should cover well %pythonversion - %pyver, %pybasever already exist ... would need harmonization throughout all specs. %pythonpath - suggest %pythonhome as naming (a la $JAVA_HOME) Can someone share with me when get_python_lib() != get_python_lib(1)? Inquiring minds want to know. %pythondir, %pyexecdir, %python_sitearch, %python_sitelib, are pretty superfluous macros. thanks, -- -jeff From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Thu Nov 11 14:47:32 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:47:32 +0100 Subject: Getting install time for an RPM In-Reply-To: References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100174511.4541.14.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> Message-ID: <20041111154732.591e9114.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Avi Alkalay wrote : > Why 'rpm -Uvh' or 'yum install' seems faster in FC3 ? > Why KDE is waaaaaay faster than FC2 ? > Why now my Cisco wireless works (after some tweeks) ? > > What was improved ? ...all the above... and more! :-) I've also had this kind of feedback from regular end-users : The general overall impression is "faster and snappier", which is really great news. As for the individual questions above, yum is a lot faster since it uses the new metadata format (no endless initial download of header files), python pickles... and has been more or less entirelay rewritten since 2.0. For rpm, maybe some not-so-needed internal checks have been disabled for normal operation? KDE... I couldn't say, I don't use it myself. Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.667.radeonfb Load : 0.57 0.46 0.32 From pjones at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 14:54:43 2004 From: pjones at redhat.com (Peter Jones) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:54:43 -0500 Subject: python 2.4 upgrade In-Reply-To: <200411112244.40655.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <41925201.3020904@balclutha.org> <200411112244.40655.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <1100184883.3960.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 22:44 +0800, Jeff Pitman wrote: > %pythonpath - suggest %pythonhome as naming (a la $JAVA_HOME) %pythonpath is also a bad name because it doesn't do the same thing as $PYTHONPATH . -- Peter AIX is Unix from the universe where Spock had a beard. From petersen at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 15:01:55 2004 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:01:55 +0900 Subject: Emacs cvs snapshot packages available In-Reply-To: <1100168670.30400.4.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <4193144D.4090407@redhat.com> <1100168670.30400.4.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <41937EE2.1040201@redhat.com> Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Setting up Repo: emacs-cvs-testing > http://people.redhat.com/petersen/emacs/current/i386/RPMS.testing/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 4] IOError: HTTP Error 404: Not Found > Trying other mirror. > Cannot open/read repomd.xml file for repository: emacs-cvs-testing > failure: repodata/repomd.xml from emacs-cvs-testing: [Errno 256] No more > mirrors to try. Thanks - ok, I added repo metadata now. Jens From n3npq at nc.rr.com Thu Nov 11 15:02:05 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:02:05 -0500 Subject: Getting install time for an RPM In-Reply-To: <20041111154732.591e9114.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100174511.4541.14.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> <20041111154732.591e9114.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <41937EED.1020600@nc.rr.com> Matthias Saou wrote: >For rpm, maybe some not-so-needed internal checks have been disabled for >normal operation? KDE... I couldn't say, I don't use it myself. > > No internal checks have been added or disabled to rpm, its the same old, same old. Kernel tuning explains a lot of snappy I suspect ... 73 de Jeff From n3npq at nc.rr.com Thu Nov 11 15:22:09 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:22:09 -0500 Subject: python 2.4 upgrade In-Reply-To: <41937594.4010005@balclutha.org> References: <41937594.4010005@balclutha.org> Message-ID: <419383A1.5020401@nc.rr.com> Alan Milligan wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > | There is nothing at all stopping you (or Fedora) from configuring > rpm in > | /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/macros, > | /etc/rpm/macros or ~/.rpmmacros if you wish. You can also add the > | definitions to your own > | package spec files. > | > Of course that's what we've already done. However the full power of > this is only felt when a significant number of Python spec files take > advantage of the same macros. The community cannot work with what is > yet to be published. The "full power" is a pipe dream. There are at least 5 active forks of rpm in the world today, all of which are changing default macros to taste. > > We actually had this reflected in ALL of our RH9 Python specs but the > only avenue to contribute this work now is to agitate for change on a > mailing list... So agitate. There is nothing stopping Fedora (or the python package) from adding to rpm configuration by changing /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/macros in the redhat-rpm-config package, or (even better imho) by dropping in /etc/rpm/macros.python from the python-devel package. Honking at rpm is driving backwards imho, as the concept that "One config for all, all for one config" in rpm has not been realistically achievable since RHL 6.2. > > | What stops adding to rpm default configuration -- aside from the > | instantly induced build > | failures with older versions of rpm > This cannot be so. No spec file is yet to reference these 'new' macros. No use in Fedora spec files, sure. > > | I've asked python guys regarding retrieving /usr/lib or /usr/lib64 > paths > | portably from python, > | and have no clear indication one way or the other of the Right Thing > To Do. > Harold Hoyer's contributed these multilib functions and I assume he's > thought quite carefully about them. In the unlikely event of a macro > not working in a specific instance, the packager would surely not use > it ... Um, with no offense to Harold, I look before I leap. And I assume nothing about how packagers behave either. > > | > | Get me confirmation that the changes work with python 2.[01234], and > | perhaps python 1.5, > | currently deployed and I will be happy to add default macros to rpm. > > This is a very moot point, and one that I see many people here > contending with in various forms across a range of applications. > > While RH itself is obliged to support many code bases, Fedora doesn't > necessarily need to do so! Anchoring Fedora with the rest of RH is > surely against the spirit of it's conception, and many of us would be > concerned about continued participation (if you could call it that) in > the project on that basis. So fork rpm for Fedora, that's basically the starting point for most distros. As I said, "One config for all, and all for one config" as a concept died in RHL 6.2 and really doesn't make much sense in the first place. Adding macros for a build system is a configuration, not an implementation, issue. > > > Yes RH needs to support this, but not Fedora. That is what source code > control, branches etc is about. Using this arguement as a basis to > dictate what's in and what's out sucks! > > | Otherwise, it > | seems kinda pointless to add default macros that don't just "work" > | everywhere imho. > > Come now, even you cannot believe it can be that hard for a group of > hard-core Python programmers to sit down and agree upon and publish four > macros! Hehe, wanna bet? Me, I program in C, not python. 73 de Jeff From carwyn at carwyn.com Thu Nov 11 15:30:00 2004 From: carwyn at carwyn.com (Carwyn Edwards) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:30:00 +0000 Subject: python 2.4 upgrade In-Reply-To: <419383A1.5020401@nc.rr.com> References: <41937594.4010005@balclutha.org> <419383A1.5020401@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <41938578.3090609@carwyn.com> Jeff Johnson wrote: > , or (even better imho) by dropping in > /etc/rpm/macros.python from the python-devel package. +1 This is what JPackage does (/etc/rpm/macros.jpackage) which is the Java model FC > 3 is using. Why can't python follow this model? Carwyn From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Nov 11 14:55:55 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:55:55 -0500 Subject: Getting install time for an RPM In-Reply-To: References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100174511.4541.14.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> Message-ID: <1100184955.3094.23.camel@binkley> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 11:38 -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > Why 'rpm -Uvh' or 'yum install' seems faster in FC3 ? b/c faster is better, right? -sv From alan at balclutha.org Thu Nov 11 15:32:09 2004 From: alan at balclutha.org (Alan Milligan) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:32:09 +1100 Subject: python 2.4 upgrade Message-ID: <419385F9.60902@balclutha.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 | %pythonprefix - seems overkill; %{_prefix} will should cover well Only if you want to place python in /usr/lib. Mostly you would wish to do so, and you will almost certainly get bitten if you dont, but if for some reason you want to locate python (or another version of the same) elsewhere, this allows you to do it. | %pythonversion - %pyver, %pybasever already exist ... would need | harmonization throughout all specs. Thats exactly the point of the exercise. If we actually publish the 'standard', it will get adopted. Presently, there are no macros, anyone packaging something pythonic does their own thing, and ala the inconsistent mess we have now! | | %pythonpath - suggest %pythonhome as naming (a la $JAVA_HOME) Whatever - anything remotely meaningfully named is ok - publishing it is the important bit. | | Can someone share with me when get_python_lib() != get_python_lib(1)? | Inquiring minds want to know. %pythondir, %pyexecdir, | %python_sitearch, %python_sitelib, are pretty superfluous macros. Actually they are not. These become critical to overriding makefile parameters in quite a few cases, thereby mitigating the need to hack third-party setup.py scripts, allowing you to use the vanilla third-party tarball :) Alan. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBk4X5CfroLk4EZpkRAorpAJ9WMhpwKreSbfkAgPZcrc1mgqubkQCfecls v5TEA9B7LBPs9L5k+u/vcM8= =t3iP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From symbiont at berlios.de Thu Nov 11 15:37:10 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:37:10 +0800 Subject: python 2.4 upgrade In-Reply-To: <419383A1.5020401@nc.rr.com> References: <41937594.4010005@balclutha.org> <419383A1.5020401@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200411112337.10357.symbiont@berlios.de> On Thursday 11 November 2004 23:22, Jeff Johnson wrote: > (even better imho) by dropping in > /etc/rpm/macros.python from the python-devel package. As pythoner would say: +1. Since *every* py spec should buildrequires python-devel. Question is, will the macros drop-in in time for one time builds under a mach root? Are all macros resolved prior to builddep resolution? take care, -- -jeff From royamitabha at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 15:40:13 2004 From: royamitabha at gmail.com (Amitabha Roy) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:40:13 -0500 Subject: CVS snapshot packages for Emacs crashes Message-ID: <77e74f3e041111074063efef6@mail.gmail.com> Jens, I tried running your latest emacs rpms on my fc3 system. I can get emacs to crash reliably by trying to saving a file using the toolbar (click on the save icon on the toolbar). I get the following error on console: libgnomevfs-ERROR **: file gnome-vfs-cancellation.c: line 133 (gnome_vfs_cancellation_cancel): assertion failed: (gnome_vfs_is_primary_thread()) aborting... Fatal error (6)Aborted Amitabha From symbiont at berlios.de Thu Nov 11 15:44:21 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:44:21 +0800 Subject: python 2.4 upgrade In-Reply-To: <419385F9.60902@balclutha.org> References: <419385F9.60902@balclutha.org> Message-ID: <200411112344.21538.symbiont@berlios.de> On Thursday 11 November 2004 23:32, Alan Milligan wrote: > | %pythonprefix - seems overkill; %{_prefix} will should cover well > > Only if you want to place python in /usr/lib. Mostly you would wish > to do so, and you will almost certainly get bitten if you dont, but > if for some reason you want to locate python (or another version of > the same) elsewhere, this allows you to do it. Where's %perlprefix, %rubyprefix, %cprefix? Toss it; no need. > | Can someone share with me when get_python_lib() != > | get_python_lib(1)? Inquiring minds want to know. %pythondir, > | %pyexecdir, > | %python_sitearch, %python_sitelib, are pretty superfluous macros. > > Actually they are not. These become critical to overriding makefile > parameters in quite a few cases, thereby mitigating the need to hack > third-party setup.py scripts, allowing you to use the vanilla > third-party tarball :) Examples? Tarball and spec, please. thanks, -- -jeff From symbiont at berlios.de Thu Nov 11 15:45:21 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:45:21 +0800 Subject: python 2.4 upgrade In-Reply-To: <200411112337.10357.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <41937594.4010005@balclutha.org> <419383A1.5020401@nc.rr.com> <200411112337.10357.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <200411112345.21564.symbiont@berlios.de> On Thursday 11 November 2004 23:37, Jeff Pitman wrote: > ?Question is, will the macros drop-in in time for one > time builds under a mach root? ?Are all macros resolved prior to > builddep resolution? Ignore this question. I realize my folly in asking it. Two stage process... -- -jeff From thomas at apestaart.org Thu Nov 11 16:03:36 2004 From: thomas at apestaart.org (Thomas Vander Stichele) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:03:36 +0100 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100018816.3837.80.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100018816.3837.80.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> Hi, > > > > - A lot of developers I know, including a bunch at Red Hat, *turn off > > SELINUX entirely*. IMO, something that gets pushed at heavily as this > > should be dogfooded by the development team at Red Hat completely, so > > they encounter firsthand what it means and how to fix basic issues. > > FWIW I have three machines here, of which two have SELinux always on in > enforcing mode, and the third sometimes on (dogfooding Rawhide here, so > sometimes things break...). They're all using the targeted policy. Oh, I'm sure there are developers dogfooding it. My point is that *all* of the Red Hat developers should be dogfooding it if you think SELINUX should be the default (which I assume is being thought since it's the default in anaconda). My sample of developers was not correctly chosen if I wanted half of them to run it. But I think *all* of them should run it, and they should come to you or Karsten or Colin when they run into stuff they can't figure it out, so that it becomes impossible for me to find even one RH developer that doesn't know basic stuff about SELINUX. For any other subsystem I would say this ideal was utopian; for something that's this impacting on end users I'd say it's a necessity. But, of course, just my POV :) Thomas Dave/Dina : future TV today ! - http://www.davedina.org/ <-*- thomas (dot) apestaart (dot) org -*-> If you don't ask me out to dinner I don't eat <-*- thomas (at) apestaart (dot) org -*-> URGent, best radio on the net - 24/7 ! - http://urgent.fm/ From jmizell at whileloop.com Thu Nov 11 17:31:50 2004 From: jmizell at whileloop.com (John Mizell) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:31:50 -0600 Subject: java intergration with firefox Message-ID: <1100194310.6487.2.camel@supernova> Is it possible to view java applets with the inclued packages of gij with fedora core 3? Can they be configured to work as a plugin with firefox? Thanx, John Mizell From n3npq at nc.rr.com Thu Nov 11 16:33:29 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:33:29 -0500 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100018816.3837.80.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <41939459.60309@nc.rr.com> Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: >Hi, > > > >>>- A lot of developers I know, including a bunch at Red Hat, *turn off >>>SELINUX entirely*. IMO, something that gets pushed at heavily as this >>>should be dogfooded by the development team at Red Hat completely, so >>>they encounter firsthand what it means and how to fix basic issues. >>> >>> >>FWIW I have three machines here, of which two have SELinux always on in >>enforcing mode, and the third sometimes on (dogfooding Rawhide here, so >>sometimes things break...). They're all using the targeted policy. >> >> > >Oh, I'm sure there are developers dogfooding it. My point is that *all* >of the Red Hat developers should be dogfooding it if you think SELINUX >should be the default (which I assume is being thought since it's the >default in anaconda). > > Why *all* so vehemently? There are devel issues other than selinux that occaisionally crop up, and there is still a need to develop software that is (not yet anyways ;-) infected with selinux. FWIW, I've been dogfooding SE Linux for over a year without serious discomfort. Sure there have been surprises. E.g. certain problems caused fsck to spew messages that I dinna not even existed. On the whole, "targeted" selinux is pretty close to drop in these days imho. OTOH, I fully understand your out-of-box introduction to selinux trying to run mach. That is a very hard environment, and there has been no serious attempt yet (afaik) to attempt to write policy for a build system. That too is a rather hard problem requiring different policy decisions than what is in "targeted". Perhaps *you* should have started dog-fooding selinux sooner. It's not exactly like the SELinux clouds have not been gathering for quite some time. 73 de Jeff From dwalsh at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 16:44:07 2004 From: dwalsh at redhat.com (Daniel J Walsh) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:44:07 -0500 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100018816.3837.80.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <419396D7.2070308@redhat.com> Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: >Hi, > > > >>>- A lot of developers I know, including a bunch at Red Hat, *turn off >>>SELINUX entirely*. IMO, something that gets pushed at heavily as this >>>should be dogfooded by the development team at Red Hat completely, so >>>they encounter firsthand what it means and how to fix basic issues. >>> >>> >>FWIW I have three machines here, of which two have SELinux always on in >>enforcing mode, and the third sometimes on (dogfooding Rawhide here, so >>sometimes things break...). They're all using the targeted policy. >> >> > >Oh, I'm sure there are developers dogfooding it. My point is that *all* >of the Red Hat developers should be dogfooding it if you think SELINUX >should be the default (which I assume is being thought since it's the >default in anaconda). > > > All RH developers do not work on FC3. (A Lot run on RHEL 3 and AS 2.1). SELinux with strict policy was very difficult to develop on so a lot of developers turned it off, now that it is targeted policy, they are using it more and more. Most of the problems we are seeing now are with different Apache setups, which most developers would not have discovered on the desktop. >My sample of developers was not correctly chosen if I wanted half of >them to run it. But I think *all* of them should run it, and they >should come to you or Karsten or Colin when they run into stuff they >can't figure it out, so that it becomes impossible for me to find even >one RH developer that doesn't know basic stuff about SELINUX. > >For any other subsystem I would say this ideal was utopian; for >something that's this impacting on end users I'd say it's a necessity. >But, of course, just my POV :) > >Thomas > > >Dave/Dina : future TV today ! - http://www.davedina.org/ ><-*- thomas (dot) apestaart (dot) org -*-> >If you don't ask me out to dinner >I don't eat ><-*- thomas (at) apestaart (dot) org -*-> >URGent, best radio on the net - 24/7 ! - http://urgent.fm/ > > > > > From thomas at apestaart.org Thu Nov 11 17:00:33 2004 From: thomas at apestaart.org (Thomas Vander Stichele) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:00:33 +0100 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <41939459.60309@nc.rr.com> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100018816.3837.80.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> <41939459.60309@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1100192434.4163.10.camel@otto.amantes> Hi, > >Oh, I'm sure there are developers dogfooding it. My point is that *all* > >of the Red Hat developers should be dogfooding it if you think SELINUX > >should be the default (which I assume is being thought since it's the > >default in anaconda). > > > > > > Why *all* so vehemently? There are devel issues other than selinux that > occaisionally > crop up, and there is still a need to develop software that is (not yet > anyways ;-) infected > with selinux. Sure - but if Red Hat feels it is ready to be a default, surely it can't be to much to ask that *all* developers respect that default and use it ? I can't see what issues for them would be unfixable *if* your claim that targeted is drop-in replacement is true. Face it - lots of people have the attitude of "I'm just going to not try SELINUX until it seems to be ready". That's not a good attitude, but it's especially not a good attitude when those people are Red Hat developers. > OTOH, I fully understand your out-of-box introduction to selinux trying > to run mach. My issues up to this point were completely unrelated to mach. Mach is one of the reasons why I feel urged to run with targeted - I want to be able to hit bugs that the common user will run into, so I can find a solution in advance. > Perhaps *you* should have started dog-fooding selinux sooner. It's not > exactly like > the SELinux clouds have not been gathering for quite some time. Exactly. I have. Issues have ranged from "I couldn't even boot because (I realize now) my /home was not labeled correctly and the installer didn't think of doing that" to "All sorts of things didn't work, including playing CD's". These are basic issues that should be caught by *red hat devs* before they hit outside users IMO. It's pretty simple - if people at red hat were all happily running SELINUX, there'd be less negative energy towards SELINUX from the outside. As it stands, there are red hat developers who are negatively promoting SELINUX, and you seem to suggest that *I* could solve this by dogfooding in their place. I'm trying to explain where this negative energy is coming from so that the SELINUX transition goes better eventually. Thomas Dave/Dina : future TV today ! - http://www.davedina.org/ <-*- thomas (dot) apestaart (dot) org -*-> There's a world outside And I know cause I've heard talk In my sweetest dreams I would go out for a walk <-*- thomas (at) apestaart (dot) org -*-> URGent, best radio on the net - 24/7 ! - http://urgent.fm/ From thomas at apestaart.org Thu Nov 11 17:02:55 2004 From: thomas at apestaart.org (Thomas Vander Stichele) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:02:55 +0100 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <419396D7.2070308@redhat.com> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100018816.3837.80.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> <419396D7.2070308@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100192576.4163.13.camel@otto.amantes> Hi, > All RH developers do not work on FC3. (A Lot run on RHEL 3 and AS 2.1). Point taken. > SELinux with strict policy was very difficult to develop on so a lot of > developers turned it > off, now that it is targeted policy, they are using it more and more. Agreed - now that I understand the difference between the two, and having read Colin's introduction, I see and understand how much better "targeted" really is. I guess a lot of people, myself included, got burned during test cycles where strict was the default. Please make sure people *realize* this subtle point - lots of people turn SELINUX off by default completely because of this. > Most of the problems > we are seeing now are with different Apache setups, which most > developers would not > have discovered on the desktop. Understood, valid point. Thomas Dave/Dina : future TV today ! - http://www.davedina.org/ <-*- thomas (dot) apestaart (dot) org -*-> And every time she sneezes I think it's love and oh lord I'm not ready for this sort of thing <-*- thomas (at) apestaart (dot) org -*-> URGent, best radio on the net - 24/7 ! - http://urgent.fm/ From n3npq at nc.rr.com Thu Nov 11 17:35:05 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:35:05 -0500 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100192434.4163.10.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100018816.3837.80.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> <41939459.60309@nc.rr.com> <1100192434.4163.10.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <4193A2C9.3040808@nc.rr.com> Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: >Hi, > > > >>>Oh, I'm sure there are developers dogfooding it. My point is that *all* >>>of the Red Hat developers should be dogfooding it if you think SELINUX >>>should be the default (which I assume is being thought since it's the >>>default in anaconda). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Why *all* so vehemently? There are devel issues other than selinux that >>occaisionally >>crop up, and there is still a need to develop software that is (not yet >>anyways ;-) infected >>with selinux. >> >> > >Sure - but if Red Hat feels it is ready to be a default, surely it can't >be to much to ask that *all* developers respect that default and use >it ? I can't see what issues for them would be unfixable *if* your claim >that targeted is drop-in replacement is true. > > Look *all* is not the issue, development is. A change of the magnitude of SELinux is not exactly easy, and even if *all* 1000 or so employees at Red Hat ran SE Linux daily, it simply would not make a difference at all. >Face it - lots of people have the attitude of "I'm just going to not try >SELINUX until it seems to be ready". That's not a good attitude, but >it's especially not a good attitude when those people are Red Hat >developers. > > Sure, everyone has an attitude, some (like yours) I can even see some sense within ;-) Your comments regarding SELinux were (and are, except for the naive *all* ;-) dead on accurate IMHO, wrto my attitude. But that isn't really the issue here, development of selinux and FCn is. > > >>OTOH, I fully understand your out-of-box introduction to selinux trying >>to run mach. >> >> > >My issues up to this point were completely unrelated to mach. Mach is >one of the reasons why I feel urged to run with targeted - I want to be >able to hit bugs that the common user will run into, so I can find a >solution in advance. > > There are some very important issues in selinux with respect to aliasing of paths introduced by chroot that you and your mach build system experience could definitely help with. The surface issue is that the added chroot prefix to paths more or less requires the file context regexes be duplicated for each prefix when writing policy. This is rather clunky atm (imho), and someone who uses chroot's all the time could only help with a better specification mechanism for file contexts. The other, and deeper, issue is writing policy for a build system which has not been seriously attempted yet afiak/ Your mach hardening experience could only assist with that policy goal (which is very different than writing "targeted" policy). > > >>Perhaps *you* should have started dog-fooding selinux sooner. It's not >>exactly like >>the SELinux clouds have not been gathering for quite some time. >> >> > >Exactly. I have. Issues have ranged from "I couldn't even boot because >(I realize now) my /home was not labeled correctly and the installer >didn't think of doing that" to "All sorts of things didn't work, >including playing CD's". These are basic issues that should be caught >by *red hat devs* before they hit outside users IMO. > > Good, glad to see you trying. Yup, selinux can/will stop booting, one needs to approach booting just like one would with a bleeding edge development kernel, i.e. always have a 2nd option. I'm quite sure issues like booting failures have been "caught" by RH developers, it's a new roll of the die for each and every new policy, and sh*t happens. Stabilizing policy for everyone is a rather different issue than catching problems, and I suggest that there has been demonstrable improvements throughout FC2 and FC3 devel cycles. >It's pretty simple - if people at red hat were all happily running >SELINUX, there'd be less negative energy towards SELINUX from the >outside. As it stands, there are red hat developers who are negatively >promoting SELINUX, and you seem to suggest that *I* could solve this by >dogfooding in their place. > > Would there? I doubt it, the magnitude of the effort to get to "strict" policy was rather badly underestimated during FC2 which is what has led to "negative". Meanwhile, "targeted" is a much saner, and more achievable goal, that is clearly easier to deploy stably, and with a better focus on what the primary concern, an exploit path (i.e. daemons), that the majority of users are (or should be) worried about. And I dinna mean to suggest that you -- any more than the 1000 or so RH employees -- can "solve" any problem soon wrto SELinux deployment. It will take a gradual and persistent effort to design and write policy that is known good, whose benefits are understood/used/deployed widely. >I'm trying to explain where this negative energy is coming from so that >the SELINUX transition goes better eventually. > > Yeah, but you are explaining the existence of negative energy negatively. Try the positive instead ;-) 73 de Jeff > > > From felipe_alfaro at linuxmail.org Thu Nov 11 17:54:38 2004 From: felipe_alfaro at linuxmail.org (Felipe Alfaro Solana) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:54:38 +0100 Subject: Multicast DNS & the ".local" domain Message-ID: Short question: Does Fedora Core 3 support multicast DNS name resolution for the ".local" domain? Long: I can resolv my Linux hostname from my Mac OS X computer, but my Linux box can't resolve my Mac OS X hostname. Looking at the network traffic, Mac OS X name queries for the ".local" domain do send mDNS traffic to the multicast mDNS address. Linux queries for the ".local" domain go against my ISP DNS server. From fitzsim at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 18:13:54 2004 From: fitzsim at redhat.com (Thomas Fitzsimmons) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:13:54 -0500 Subject: Java status for FC4? In-Reply-To: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100196834.17274.55.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 05:05, Tadej Jane? wrote: > Hi, > I noticed a bunch of new Java packages added to rawhide on 6th of > November, so the following question came to my mind: > Is FC4 geared towards full scale Java adoption? > How does that relate to the jpackage efforts (which are more > distro-independent, I think)? > They are the same as upstream jpackages, with some modifications to make them work on gcj. After installing Fedora Core 3, issue the following command: yum install java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-devel This will install java-1.4.2-gcj-compat, java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-devel and ecj (the Eclipse Java compiler). These packages should have been part of the default install, but instead you have to install them manually, after the fact. They'll be part of the default install in FC4. These packages install wrapper scripts that make ecj and gij behave in a very similar way to javac and java, and also make these tools jpackage-compatible. Once they're installed, you should be able to install upstream jpackages smoothly, without the need to install a proprietary JVM. > Lastly, new packages also include Java bindings for gtk, libgnome, > libglade and gconf, so does that mean we can expect desktop applications > written in Java being added to FC in the future? > The Java-GNOME bindings will ship with FC4. We may also ship some applications that use the bindings, possibly in Fedora Extras. Tom > Thanks, > tadej > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list From fitzsim at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 18:15:05 2004 From: fitzsim at redhat.com (Thomas Fitzsimmons) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:15:05 -0500 Subject: Java status for FC4? In-Reply-To: References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1100196904.17274.58.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 06:52, Avi Alkalay wrote: > OK, so how can I have Java (not GCJ) installed in FC3 in the most > straight forward way. > > I'm expecting a 1 step response like: > > - Do this: rpm -Uvh http://blabla.jpackage.blabla/blabla/something.rpm > yum install java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-devel > Regards, > Avi > > > > On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:16:07 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot > wrote: > > Le jeudi 11 novembre 2004 ? 11:05 +0100, Tadej Jane? a ?crit : > > > Hi, > > > I noticed a bunch of new Java packages added to rawhide on 6th of > > > November, so the following question came to my mind: > > > Is FC4 geared towards full scale Java adoption? > > > How does that relate to the jpackage efforts (which are more > > > distro-independent, I think)? > > > > The new packages should use jpackage as upstream source, with some > > native gcj goodness thrown in as an overlay (in separate packages) > > > > (note people work on jpp 1.6 now which should be released anytime soon, > > so the packages themselves are not the jpp 1.5 ones) > > > > Cheers, > > > > -- > > Nicolas Mailhot > > > > > > -- > > fedora-devel-list mailing list > > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > > > > > > From fitzsim at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 18:17:34 2004 From: fitzsim at redhat.com (Thomas Fitzsimmons) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:17:34 -0500 Subject: java intergration with firefox In-Reply-To: <1100194310.6487.2.camel@supernova> References: <1100194310.6487.2.camel@supernova> Message-ID: <1100197054.17274.62.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 12:31, John Mizell wrote: > Is it possible to view java applets with the inclued packages of gij > with fedora core 3? Can they be configured to work as a plugin with > firefox? > Not yet. See this bug report for details: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=127537 Once libgcj's security infrastructure is in place and has been audited, we can start shipping gcjwebplugin. This may even be as soon as FC4. Tom > Thanx, > John Mizell From kyrre at solution-forge.net Thu Nov 11 18:15:30 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:15:30 +0100 Subject: Stateless Linux In-Reply-To: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> References: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <1100196930.2683.10.camel@kyrre> Just wondering - is there any "out of the box" ltsp rpm's to be found (for fc3)? I have some thin clients and a thin client server, and really want to run it off LTSP. If it could simply be as simple as "yum install ltsp system-config-ltsp" "system-config-ltsp" *set which network card to use "internally" etc* "chkconfig ltsp on" *dreaming sweeet dreams* tir, 09.11.2004 kl. 03.14 skrev Jason Powers: > Been lucky enough to have a little time to try this out. We've been > trying to get LTSP running here since about March, and it's not really > flying beyond basic use. > > So when I saw this project I grabbed the files and set up a box, the > configuration is not only easy compared to LTSP, but I learned a lot > about that process by doing this (LTSP also requires TFTP, LDAP, DHCPD, > etc). I have the most recent build as of now. > > I'm still working on getting my first snapshot to export, but it's a lot > easier to check the work when you install phpldapadmin on the same > system: you can see each item as it's created, and check to make sure > it's all correct. Merely running the tests doesn't always catch typos > and such. phpla is pretty easy to install, I untarred it into > /var/www/html and renamed it phpla so I could just browse it. I've been > using a lot of LAMP tools lately, sometimes just seeing the same info a > different way helps a lot. > > Anyway I'm here to mention an oddity in the documentation for Stateless. > On this page: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/stateless/sn-snapshot-setup.html > > it says to use the following command: > > stateless-snapshooter --new --protosystem DemoSystem > > since it's just a toy I'm actually using the name DemoSystem. However, > the --new and --protosystem had to be replaced with -n -p before it > would work. The error tells you very plainly that those are the > available switches. for some reason --list works just fine, as does -l. > > I haven't made any changes to the server, it's as plain as you can get > it fresh off the download mirror. Anyway broken flags are just a minor > thing but I couldn't find an email to send this to so the devel list > seemed as safe a place as any. > > On to the next step... > > jason From dan_young at parkrose.k12.or.us Thu Nov 11 18:24:02 2004 From: dan_young at parkrose.k12.or.us (Dan Young) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:24:02 -0800 Subject: Stateless Linux In-Reply-To: <1100196930.2683.10.camel@kyrre> References: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> <1100196930.2683.10.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100197442.4568.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 19:15 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > Just wondering - is there any "out of the box" ltsp rpm's to be found > (for fc3)? I have some thin clients and a thin client server, and really > want to run it off LTSP k12ltsp.org Current version is on FC2 but I think Eric Harrison is looking to fix that Real Soon Now. -- Dan Young Parkrose School District From carwyn at carwyn.com Thu Nov 11 18:26:00 2004 From: carwyn at carwyn.com (Carwyn Edwards) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:26:00 +0000 Subject: Java status for FC4? In-Reply-To: <1100196904.17274.58.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100196904.17274.58.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4193AEB8.9040708@carwyn.com> Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: >On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 06:52, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > >>OK, so how can I have Java (not GCJ) >> >yum install java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-devel > > How realistic a replacement for the Sun/IBM/Blackdown/BEA JVMs is GCJ these days? Can I pluck any Java app off the web and expect it to work? Say if it says it needs Java 1.4.2. Carwyn From avibrazil at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 18:39:06 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:39:06 -0200 Subject: FC3 and 2 net interfaces :-( In-Reply-To: <20041111154732.591e9114.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100174511.4541.14.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> <20041111154732.591e9114.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: Yeah, but I just spent 1 hour to put my IBM T40 laptop on the network. I have 2 interfaces: GigEthernet (e1000) and Cisco Wireless (airo). airo wants to be ALLWAYS eth0, but if you load e1000 first, it will be eth0. Then if you rmmod e1000 and then rmmod airo, your command line hangs, and if you try to init 6 in another shell, it will hang in some point, with kernel messages saying it is waiting for eth0 to bee freed. Finally, you'll have to put your finger in the power button. Kudzu also has some (probably related) problems with network: Every boot he has 2 messages for me: a) AIRO was removed (it is an internal chip in my laptop !!!) b) new AIRO was found. Duh.... I reported this last bug in FC2, and it is marked as closed, :-( https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=124805 It seems this problem happens on any system that has 2 interfaces. Anyone else with this on FC3 ? Regards, Avi On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:47:32 +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > Avi Alkalay wrote : > > > Why 'rpm -Uvh' or 'yum install' seems faster in FC3 ? > > Why KDE is waaaaaay faster than FC2 ? > > Why now my Cisco wireless works (after some tweeks) ? > > > > What was improved ? > > ...all the above... and more! :-) > > I've also had this kind of feedback from regular end-users : The general > overall impression is "faster and snappier", which is really great news. > > As for the individual questions above, yum is a lot faster since it uses > the new metadata format (no endless initial download of header files), > python pickles... and has been more or less entirelay rewritten since 2.0. > For rpm, maybe some not-so-needed internal checks have been disabled for > normal operation? KDE... I couldn't say, I don't use it myself. > > Matthias From arnaud.abelard at univ-nantes.fr Thu Nov 11 19:12:41 2004 From: arnaud.abelard at univ-nantes.fr (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arnaud_Ab=E9lard?=) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:12:41 +0100 Subject: root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash !?! Message-ID: <4193B9A9.20504@univ-nantes.fr> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello, I just noticed that the default /etc/passwd file installed by the package setup-2.5.33-1.noarch.rpm (on a FC2, i don't know about FC1 and FC3 yet) contains the line root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash. This means that root is a passwdless account but nevetheless useable, with a valid shell. When installing the package in a chroot, for a vserver, uml, or whatever this creates a very serious security hazard! I know this is not normally a problem, because anaconda will force the user to set a password. But the package isn't always installed by anaconda during a normal installation from a media. In the case of a manual relocated installation on the purpose to create a chroot environment this is a real problem. Arnaud Ab?lard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBk7mpu1PiD4+WtDcRAm4AAJ9TyawfST/xTQfGJvXLlra6mliuRACeN/Gd X3jSXzbkn6v0hRq4IXzcNIs= =5YYj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kyrre at solution-forge.net Thu Nov 11 19:09:50 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:09:50 +0100 Subject: Multicast DNS & the ".local" domain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100200131.3865.1.camel@kyrre> tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 18.54 skrev Felipe Alfaro Solana: > Short question: Does Fedora Core 3 support multicast DNS name > resolution for the ".local" domain? > > Long: I can resolv my Linux hostname from my Mac OS X computer, but my > Linux box can't resolve my Mac OS X hostname. > > Looking at the network traffic, Mac OS X name queries for the ".local" > domain do send mDNS traffic to the multicast mDNS address. Linux > queries for the ".local" domain go against my ISP DNS server. So that is what "mDNS" stands for. What is it? Where can i find documentation? Simple, easy-to-understand explanations? Does it mean that i can name my computer "kyrre.local" and it will automatically be discovered and resolved on the LAN? From perbj at stanford.edu Thu Nov 11 19:13:22 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:13:22 -0800 Subject: rawhide report: 20041110 changes In-Reply-To: <200411102310.iAANAA012113@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411102310.iAANAA012113@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100200402.3560.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-10 at 18:10 -0500, Build System wrote: > vte-0.11.11-13 > -------------- > * Tue Nov 09 2004 Ray Strode 0.11.11-13 > - Don't copy blocks; use pointers to block array directly. > (based on the debugging efforts of > Egmont Koblinger , bug 135537). This seems to have fixed an incredibly annoying (to Nano users in any case) bug in vte that made Nano not refresh correctly (there are three dupes of this bug against nano actually, #127972, #135159 and #138726) - I installed this on my FC3 system and now Nano appears to work fine (I have only tested a bit, but at least I can no longer reproduce the massive screen corruption that I was seeing before). Any chance we could see an FC3 update? Thanks, Per Bjornsson -- Per Bjornsson Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University From hp at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 19:28:38 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:28:38 -0500 Subject: FC3 and 2 net interfaces :-( In-Reply-To: References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100174511.4541.14.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> <20041111154732.591e9114.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <1100201318.5857.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, I have the same network cards and had the same problem. For me I finally fixed it by nuking /etc/sysconfig/hwconf, /etc/modprobe.conf, and rebooting (I think) I also had to blow away the existing network-scripts/ifcfg-eth[01] I think. Anyway, basically rebooting with all the old cruft removed seemed to fix it. It's still a bug, I'm just giving you a workaround. You might save the old cruft for bug report purposes. Havoc On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 16:39 -0200, Avi Alkalay wrote: > Yeah, but I just spent 1 hour to put my IBM T40 laptop on the network. > > I have 2 interfaces: GigEthernet (e1000) and Cisco Wireless (airo). > airo wants to be ALLWAYS eth0, but if you load e1000 first, it will be > eth0. Then if you rmmod e1000 and then rmmod airo, your command line > hangs, and if you try to init 6 in another shell, it will hang in some > point, with kernel messages saying it is waiting for eth0 to bee > freed. Finally, you'll have to put your finger in the power button. > > Kudzu also has some (probably related) problems with network: > Every boot he has 2 messages for me: > a) AIRO was removed (it is an internal chip in my laptop !!!) > b) new AIRO was found. Duh.... > > I reported this last bug in FC2, and it is marked as closed, :-( > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=124805 > > It seems this problem happens on any system that has 2 interfaces. > Anyone else with this on FC3 ? > > Regards, > Avi > > On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:47:32 +0100, Matthias Saou > > wrote: > > Avi Alkalay wrote : > > > > > Why 'rpm -Uvh' or 'yum install' seems faster in FC3 ? > > > Why KDE is waaaaaay faster than FC2 ? > > > Why now my Cisco wireless works (after some tweeks) ? > > > > > > What was improved ? > > > > ...all the above... and more! :-) > > > > I've also had this kind of feedback from regular end-users : The general > > overall impression is "faster and snappier", which is really great news. > > > > As for the individual questions above, yum is a lot faster since it uses > > the new metadata format (no endless initial download of header files), > > python pickles... and has been more or less entirelay rewritten since 2.0. > > For rpm, maybe some not-so-needed internal checks have been disabled for > > normal operation? KDE... I couldn't say, I don't use it myself. > > > > Matthias > From kyrre at solution-forge.net Thu Nov 11 19:42:50 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:42:50 +0100 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> > You're not going to get one (yet). You can either: > > 1. Pull down Sun's RPM and install that (not recommended). > Why not recomended? > .. or .. > > 2. Head over to http://jpackage.org and RTFM (recommended). > > JPackage 1.5 will sit quite happily on FC3 and can then be replaced > with JPackage 1.6 when that comes out. > > Carwyn From rstrode at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 19:53:11 2004 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:53:11 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041110 changes In-Reply-To: <1100200402.3560.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200411102310.iAANAA012113@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <1100200402.3560.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100202791.9828.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, > On Wed, 2004-11-10 at 18:10 -0500, Build System wrote: > > > vte-0.11.11-13 > > -------------- > > * Tue Nov 09 2004 Ray Strode 0.11.11-13 > > - Don't copy blocks; use pointers to block array directly. > > (based on the debugging efforts of > > Egmont Koblinger , bug 135537). > > This seems to have fixed an incredibly annoying (to Nano users in any > case) bug in vte that made Nano not refresh correctly (there are three > dupes of this bug against nano actually, #127972, #135159 and #138726) - > I installed this on my FC3 system and now Nano appears to work fine (I > have only tested a bit, but at least I can no longer reproduce the > massive screen corruption that I was seeing before). Any chance we could > see an FC3 update? I'd be happy to put out an FC3 update if this completely fixes the redraw problems during scrolling. I'll need to do some testing first, however, to confirm the fix and make sure that I understand why it fixes the problem. --Ray From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Nov 11 19:59:39 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:59:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Nov 2004, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: >> You're not going to get one (yet). You can either: >> >> 1. Pull down Sun's RPM and install that (not recommended). >> > > Why not recomended? Because it blows chunks... (-: , and that it is not jpackage integrated. -- Rex From royamitabha at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 20:09:11 2004 From: royamitabha at gmail.com (Amitabha Roy) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:09:11 -0500 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> Maybe someone can explain to a complete novice like me what the issue is. How does being integrated with jpackage help ? Why is Sun's java not good enough ? On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:59:39 -0600 (CST), Rex Dieter wrote: > On Thu, 11 Nov 2004, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > >> You're not going to get one (yet). You can either: > >> > >> 1. Pull down Sun's RPM and install that (not recommended). > >> > > > > Why not recomended? > > Because it blows chunks... (-: , and that it is not jpackage integrated. > > -- Rex > > > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Thu Nov 11 20:10:07 2004 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:10:07 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041110 changes In-Reply-To: <1100202791.9828.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200411102310.iAANAA012113@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <1100200402.3560.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100202791.9828.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4193C71F.6060906@hhs.nl> Ray Strode wrote: > Hi, > >>On Wed, 2004-11-10 at 18:10 -0500, Build System wrote: >> >> >>>vte-0.11.11-13 >>>-------------- >>>* Tue Nov 09 2004 Ray Strode 0.11.11-13 >>>- Don't copy blocks; use pointers to block array directly. >>> (based on the debugging efforts of >>> Egmont Koblinger , bug 135537). >> >>This seems to have fixed an incredibly annoying (to Nano users in any >>case) bug in vte that made Nano not refresh correctly (there are three >>dupes of this bug against nano actually, #127972, #135159 and #138726) - >>I installed this on my FC3 system and now Nano appears to work fine (I >>have only tested a bit, but at least I can no longer reproduce the >>massive screen corruption that I was seeing before). Any chance we could >>see an FC3 update? > > I'd be happy to put out an FC3 update if this completely fixes the > redraw problems during scrolling. I'll need to do some testing first, > however, to confirm the fix and make sure that I understand why it fixes > the problem. > --Ray > > This doesnot fix https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=134300 Regards, Hans -- EuropeSwPatentFree http://EuropeSwPatentFree.hispalinux.es From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Nov 11 20:11:47 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:11:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Nov 2004, Amitabha Roy wrote: > Maybe someone can explain to a complete novice like me what the issue is. > How does being integrated with jpackage help ? > Why is Sun's java not good enough ? Reading up on what jpackage is: http://www.jpackage.org/ should at least tell much of the what you're asking. -- Rex From peter.backlund at home.se Thu Nov 11 20:34:00 2004 From: peter.backlund at home.se (Peter Backlund) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:34:00 +0100 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100205240.3373.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> tor 2004-11-11 klockan 15:09 -0500 skrev Amitabha Roy: > Maybe someone can explain to a complete novice like me what the issue is. > > How does being integrated with jpackage help ? > > Why is Sun's java not good enough ? Sun's Java is good, but the packaging is not. As Rex Dieter suggested, read all about it at jpackage.org. /Peter Backlund From kyrre at solution-forge.net Thu Nov 11 20:52:43 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:52:43 +0100 Subject: root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash !?! In-Reply-To: <4193B9A9.20504@univ-nantes.fr> References: <4193B9A9.20504@univ-nantes.fr> Message-ID: <1100206363.3865.7.camel@kyrre> tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 20.12 skrev Arnaud Ab?lard: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hello, > > I just noticed that the default /etc/passwd file installed by the > package setup-2.5.33-1.noarch.rpm (on a FC2, i don't know about FC1 and > FC3 yet) contains the line root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash. > > This means that root is a passwdless account but nevetheless useable, > with a valid shell. When installing the package in a chroot, for a > vserver, uml, or whatever this creates a very serious security hazard! > > I know this is not normally a problem, because anaconda will force the > user to set a password. But the package isn't always installed by > anaconda during a normal installation from a media. In the case of a > manual relocated installation on the purpose to create a chroot > environment this is a real problem. > > > Arnaud Ab?lard > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFBk7mpu1PiD4+WtDcRAm4AAJ9TyawfST/xTQfGJvXLlra6mliuRACeN/Gd > X3jSXzbkn6v0hRq4IXzcNIs= > =5YYj > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Wouldn't it them be better to set a "*" password? Ie. disable root? From tadej.janez at tadej.hicsalta.si Thu Nov 11 21:05:51 2004 From: tadej.janez at tadej.hicsalta.si (Tadej =?iso-8859-2?Q?Jane=BE?=) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:05:51 +0100 Subject: Java status for FC4? In-Reply-To: <1100196834.17274.55.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100196834.17274.55.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100207150.16922.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 19:13, Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 05:05, Tadej Jane? wrote: > > Hi, > > I noticed a bunch of new Java packages added to rawhide on 6th of > > November, so the following question came to my mind: > > Is FC4 geared towards full scale Java adoption? > > How does that relate to the jpackage efforts (which are more > > distro-independent, I think)? > > > > They are the same as upstream jpackages, with some modifications to make > them work on gcj. > > After installing Fedora Core 3, issue the following command: > > yum install java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-devel > > This will install java-1.4.2-gcj-compat, java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-devel and > ecj (the Eclipse Java compiler). These packages should have been part > of the default install, but instead you have to install them manually, > after the fact. They'll be part of the default install in FC4. > > These packages install wrapper scripts that make ecj and gij behave in a > very similar way to javac and java, and also make these tools > jpackage-compatible. Once they're installed, you should be able to > install upstream jpackages smoothly, without the need to install a > proprietary JVM. > Thanks, this explains a lot. > > Lastly, new packages also include Java bindings for gtk, libgnome, > > libglade and gconf, so does that mean we can expect desktop applications > > written in Java being added to FC in the future? > > > > The Java-GNOME bindings will ship with FC4. We may also ship some > applications that use the bindings, possibly in Fedora Extras. > I'm already looking forward to see the new Fedora Extras up and running :) Regards, tadej -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Thu Nov 11 21:13:16 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:13:16 +0100 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100207596.6771.14.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le jeudi 11 novembre 2004 ? 15:09 -0500, Amitabha Roy a ?crit : > Maybe someone can explain to a complete novice like me what the issue is. > > How does being integrated with jpackage help ? > > Why is Sun's java not good enough ? Sun packages were (and probably still are, didn't look at them for a long time) little more than a single-root tar-like system. To help system integration, upgrades we've repackaged most of the big linux jvms on the market. Little things like consistent namings (including package naming;), locations, virtual provides, etc enable JPackage users to switch JVMs relatively easily without reconfiguring their whole java system. The files themselves are extracted from the binary tar drops most vendors provide, since we don't have access to sources (for people that really want the original Sun packages we've also got a package that simulates a jpp rpm by adding symlinks all over the place). A human can work around all the changes between one vendor package and another but you really can't build a large package base over stuff that is changing all the time. The main JVM repackaging aim is to provide a stable base other Java packages can then use. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From fitzsim at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 21:19:02 2004 From: fitzsim at redhat.com (Thomas Fitzsimmons) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:19:02 -0500 Subject: Java status for FC4? In-Reply-To: <4193AEB8.9040708@carwyn.com> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100196904.17274.58.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> <4193AEB8.9040708@carwyn.com> Message-ID: <1100207942.17274.88.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 13:26, Carwyn Edwards wrote: > Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: > > >On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 06:52, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > > > > >>OK, so how can I have Java (not GCJ) > >> > >yum install java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-devel > > > > > How realistic a replacement for the Sun/IBM/Blackdown/BEA JVMs is GCJ > these days? > Many programs run as well or better than they run on non-free JVMs. Most non-GUI programs should run fine. FC3 introduces experimental AWT and Swing support, so simple AWT and Swing applications will run too. > Can I pluck any Java app off the web and expect it to work? Say if it > says it needs Java 1.4.2. > The FC3 packaging of gij and ecj (java-1.4.2-gcj-compat) should help out a lot here. Try your apps out on our free software stack and let us know if they don't work (report a bug). Because java-gcj-compat uses jpackage conventions, you can easily switch between a jpackaged non-free SDK and our free tools using alternatives(8). Tom From zboszor at freemail.hu Thu Nov 11 21:50:16 2004 From: zboszor at freemail.hu (Zoltan Boszormenyi) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:50:16 +0100 Subject: FC3 and 2 net interfaces :-( In-Reply-To: References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100174511.4541.14.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> <20041111154732.591e9114.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <4193DE98.9070209@freemail.hu> Avi Alkalay ?rta: > Yeah, but I just spent 1 hour to put my IBM T40 laptop on the network. > > I have 2 interfaces: GigEthernet (e1000) and Cisco Wireless (airo). > airo wants to be ALLWAYS eth0, but if you load e1000 first, it will be > eth0. Then if you rmmod e1000 and then rmmod airo, your command line > hangs, and if you try to init 6 in another shell, it will hang in some > point, with kernel messages saying it is waiting for eth0 to bee > freed. Finally, you'll have to put your finger in the power button. > > Kudzu also has some (probably related) problems with network: > Every boot he has 2 messages for me: > a) AIRO was removed (it is an internal chip in my laptop !!!) > b) new AIRO was found. Duh.... > > I reported this last bug in FC2, and it is marked as closed, :-( > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=124805 > > It seems this problem happens on any system that has 2 interfaces. > Anyone else with this on FC3 ? > > Regards, > Avi Same here with an integrated RealTek 8169 and a wireless NetGear MA311. I had to edit /etc/sysconfig/hwconf and /etc/modprobe.conf to make eth0 eth1 and vice-versa. I had to delete a second instance (eth2) from /etc/sysconfig/hwconf for my wireless card. I did this in single mode and now kudzu does not complain any more. Best regards, Zolt?n B?sz?rm?nyi From perbj at stanford.edu Thu Nov 11 23:24:48 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:24:48 -0800 Subject: rawhide report: 20041110 changes In-Reply-To: <4193C71F.6060906@hhs.nl> References: <200411102310.iAANAA012113@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <1100200402.3560.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100202791.9828.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4193C71F.6060906@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <1100215489.3560.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 21:10 +0100, Hans de Goede wrote: > This doesnot fix https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=134300 Hmm. Indeed I can still reproduce that one; it doesn't really seem to be the same thing though, as far as I can tell that one is not related to scrolling, is it? When I surf around and get screen corruption, it actually seems to clean up when it scrolls. So while this may be related it doesn't necessarily seem to be exactly the same bug. I guess I can see the point of waiting to come up with an update until all the known problems are fixed; however, the scrolling issue seems like a pretty big one to me, and appears to be much easier to hit - considering that this has been reported several times against Nano in bugzilla I think it might be worth pumping out an update pretty in any case. (Tongue in cheek: Who uses lynx anyways when there is links? No screen corruption there as far as I can tell! Are there any known non- Lynx cases of screen corruption left?) /Per -- Per Bjornsson Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University From alan at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 23:34:00 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:34:00 -0500 Subject: root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash !?! In-Reply-To: <4193B9A9.20504@univ-nantes.fr> References: <4193B9A9.20504@univ-nantes.fr> Message-ID: <20041111233400.GA24473@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 08:12:41PM +0100, Arnaud Ab?lard wrote: > I just noticed that the default /etc/passwd file installed by the > package setup-2.5.33-1.noarch.rpm (on a FC2, i don't know about FC1 and > FC3 yet) contains the line root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash. File a bug against setup - its a good comment and it could easily default to * From felipe_alfaro at linuxmail.org Thu Nov 11 23:44:27 2004 From: felipe_alfaro at linuxmail.org (Felipe Alfaro Solana) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:44:27 +0100 Subject: Multicast DNS & the ".local" domain In-Reply-To: <1100200131.3865.1.camel@kyrre> References: <1100200131.3865.1.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2004, at 20:09, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 18.54 skrev Felipe Alfaro Solana: >> Short question: Does Fedora Core 3 support multicast DNS name >> resolution for the ".local" domain? >> >> Long: I can resolv my Linux hostname from my Mac OS X computer, but my >> Linux box can't resolve my Mac OS X hostname. >> >> Looking at the network traffic, Mac OS X name queries for the ".local" >> domain do send mDNS traffic to the multicast mDNS address. Linux >> queries for the ".local" domain go against my ISP DNS server. > > So that is what "mDNS" stands for. What is it? Where can i find > documentation? Simple, easy-to-understand explanations? Does it mean > that i can name my computer "kyrre.local" and it will automatically be > discovered and resolved on the LAN? mDNS is a piece of Apple?s Rendezvous technology. There others are automatic link-local IPv4 address allocation and service discovery. Fedora Core 3 already has support for the multicast DNS responder part of Rendezvous, in form of the ?howl?package (see http://www.porchdogsoft.com/products/howl). Also, take a look at http://developer.apple.com/macosx/rendezvous The problem I'm having is that Linux mDNSResponder service works pretty well: when a Mac OS X computer asks mDNSResponder, it does. What I'm unable to achieve is just the opposite: make glibc's resolver use multicast DNS to resolve queries for the ".local" domain. It seems, however, that both SUSE and Gentoo have patches to make this work, and I wanted to know why Fedora does not. From alan at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 23:57:52 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:57:52 -0500 Subject: Multicast DNS & the ".local" domain In-Reply-To: References: <1100200131.3865.1.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <20041111235752.GJ24473@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:44:27AM +0100, Felipe Alfaro Solana wrote: > mDNS is a piece of Apple?s Rendezvous technology. There others are "Zeroconf" now I believe. Apple had a bit of a trademark run in with Tibco. From felipe_alfaro at linuxmail.org Fri Nov 12 00:07:03 2004 From: felipe_alfaro at linuxmail.org (Felipe Alfaro Solana) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:07:03 +0100 Subject: Multicast DNS & the ".local" domain In-Reply-To: <20041111235752.GJ24473@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100200131.3865.1.camel@kyrre> <20041111235752.GJ24473@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2004, at 00:57, Alan Cox wrote: > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:44:27AM +0100, Felipe Alfaro Solana wrote: >> mDNS is a piece of Apple?s Rendezvous technology. There others are > > "Zeroconf" now I believe. Apple had a bit of a trademark run in with > Tibco. I'm not sure. "Zeroconf" is the name used by the IETF Working Group. Apple still uses the Rendezvous codename in its web site and Mac OS X operating environment. From mpeters at mac.com Fri Nov 12 00:25:28 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:25:28 +0000 Subject: Java status for FC4? In-Reply-To: <1100196904.17274.58.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> (from fitzsim@redhat.com on Thu Nov 11 10:15:05 2004) References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100196904.17274.58.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100219128l.6203l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/11/2004 10:15:05 AM, Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 06:52, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > OK, so how can I have Java (not GCJ) installed in FC3 in the most > > straight forward way. > > > > I'm expecting a 1 step response like: > > > > - Do this: rpm -Uvh > http://blabla.jpackage.blabla/blabla/something.rpm > > > > yum install java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-devel Does that install a capable mozilla plugin? I currently use blackdown J2SDK - but sometimes when a new distro is released and gcc is updated it breaks until a new blackdown is released. A JRE in the distro would solve that issue, so long as it has a java plugin that works. This also would be desirable for PPC machines, as Blackdown doesn't (to my knowledge) provide a ppc JRE. From fitzsim at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 00:37:16 2004 From: fitzsim at redhat.com (Thomas Fitzsimmons) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:37:16 -0500 Subject: Java status for FC4? In-Reply-To: <1100219128l.6203l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100196904.17274.58.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> <1100219128l.6203l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1100219836.17274.102.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 19:25, Michael A. Peters wrote: > On 11/11/2004 10:15:05 AM, Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: > > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 06:52, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > > OK, so how can I have Java (not GCJ) installed in FC3 in the most > > > straight forward way. > > > > > > I'm expecting a 1 step response like: > > > > > > - Do this: rpm -Uvh > > http://blabla.jpackage.blabla/blabla/something.rpm > > > > > > > yum install java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-devel > > Does that install a capable mozilla plugin? Not yet, unfortunately. This bug report has details: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=127537 Tom From alan at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 00:44:18 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:44:18 -0500 Subject: Multicast DNS & the ".local" domain In-Reply-To: References: <1100200131.3865.1.camel@kyrre> <20041111235752.GJ24473@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041112004418.GK24473@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 01:07:03AM +0100, Felipe Alfaro Solana wrote: > I'm not sure. "Zeroconf" is the name used by the IETF Working Group. > Apple still uses the Rendezvous codename in its web site and Mac OS X > operating environment. Only for the moment. Zeroconf is more correct anyway as it is the cross platform name and not a vendor trademark From stephen_pollei at comcast.net Fri Nov 12 01:11:31 2004 From: stephen_pollei at comcast.net (Stephen Pollei) Date: 11 Nov 2004 17:11:31 -0800 Subject: Multicast DNS & the ".local" domain In-Reply-To: References: <1100200131.3865.1.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100221892.8355.41.camel@fury> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 15:44, Felipe Alfaro Solana wrote: > On Nov 11, 2004, at 20:09, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 18.54 skrev Felipe Alfaro Solana: > >> Looking at the network traffic, Mac OS X name queries for the ".local" > >> domain do send mDNS traffic to the multicast mDNS address. Linux > >> queries for the ".local" domain go against my ISP DNS server. Can it also use IPv6 anycast? > The problem I'm having is that Linux mDNSResponder service works pretty > well: when a Mac OS X computer asks mDNSResponder, it does. What I'm > unable to achieve is just the opposite: make glibc's resolver use > multicast DNS to resolve queries for the ".local" domain. It seems, > however, that both SUSE and Gentoo have patches to make this work, and > I wanted to know why Fedora does not. I'd also try setting up IPv6 anycast for DNS . You could set the local bind server to treat the anycast DNS address as being the master for .local ... -- http://dmoz.org/profiles/pollei.html http://sourceforge.net/users/stephen_pollei/ http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=2455954990164098214 http://stephen_pollei.home.comcast.net/ GPG Key fingerprint = EF6F 1486 EC27 B5E7 E6E1 3C01 910F 6BB5 4A7D 9677 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From avibrazil at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 02:17:30 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:17:30 -0200 Subject: FC3 and 2 net interfaces :-( In-Reply-To: <1100201318.5857.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100174511.4541.14.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> <20041111154732.591e9114.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <1100201318.5857.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Havoc, I think this is 2 problems: 1) airo driver refuses to be eth1 dynamically, or the kernel should manage to not let 2 drivers allocate the same "eth0". 2) kudzu is broken I'm stable now probably with the same manual solution you guys did: Edited by hand modprobe to make airo allways eth0. I'm not rebooting too much, so I don't know what kudzu will do next time. I'll probably disable it, cause I'm not planning to install a TV board in my laptop :D Do you have an IBM T40 too ? If so, I have other minor issues with mine, like ACPI, etc, so we can have a look on them in private, if you don't mind... Regards, Avi On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:28:38 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > Hi, > > I have the same network cards and had the same problem. > > For me I finally fixed it by > nuking /etc/sysconfig/hwconf, /etc/modprobe.conf, and rebooting > (I think) > > I also had to blow away the existing network-scripts/ifcfg-eth[01] I > think. > > Anyway, basically rebooting with all the old cruft removed seemed to fix > it. It's still a bug, I'm just giving you a workaround. You might save > the old cruft for bug report purposes. > > Havoc > > > > > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 16:39 -0200, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > Yeah, but I just spent 1 hour to put my IBM T40 laptop on the network. > > > > I have 2 interfaces: GigEthernet (e1000) and Cisco Wireless (airo). > > airo wants to be ALLWAYS eth0, but if you load e1000 first, it will be > > eth0. Then if you rmmod e1000 and then rmmod airo, your command line > > hangs, and if you try to init 6 in another shell, it will hang in some > > point, with kernel messages saying it is waiting for eth0 to bee > > freed. Finally, you'll have to put your finger in the power button. > > > > Kudzu also has some (probably related) problems with network: > > Every boot he has 2 messages for me: > > a) AIRO was removed (it is an internal chip in my laptop !!!) > > b) new AIRO was found. Duh.... > > > > I reported this last bug in FC2, and it is marked as closed, :-( > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=124805 > > > > It seems this problem happens on any system that has 2 interfaces. > > Anyone else with this on FC3 ? > > > > Regards, > > Avi > > > > On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:47:32 +0100, Matthias Saou > > > > wrote: > > > Avi Alkalay wrote : > > > > > > > Why 'rpm -Uvh' or 'yum install' seems faster in FC3 ? > > > > Why KDE is waaaaaay faster than FC2 ? > > > > Why now my Cisco wireless works (after some tweeks) ? > > > > > > > > What was improved ? > > > > > > ...all the above... and more! :-) > > > > > > I've also had this kind of feedback from regular end-users : The general > > > overall impression is "faster and snappier", which is really great news. > > > > > > As for the individual questions above, yum is a lot faster since it uses > > > the new metadata format (no endless initial download of header files), > > > python pickles... and has been more or less entirelay rewritten since 2.0. > > > For rpm, maybe some not-so-needed internal checks have been disabled for > > > normal operation? KDE... I couldn't say, I don't use it myself. > > > > > > Matthias > > > > From hp at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 02:23:56 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:23:56 -0500 Subject: FC3 and 2 net interfaces :-( In-Reply-To: References: <44120.193.195.148.66.1100167832.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1100168164.2646.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <45076.193.195.148.66.1100168460.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20041111102455.GA9658@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100174511.4541.14.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> <20041111154732.591e9114.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <1100201318.5857.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100226236.6967.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 00:17 -0200, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > Do you have an IBM T40 too ? > If so, I have other minor issues with mine, like ACPI, etc, so we can > have a look on them in private, if you don't mind... Mine is X31... much of Red Hat has either T40 or X31. Havoc From avibrazil at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 02:41:58 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:41:58 -0200 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: <1100207596.6771.14.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> <1100207596.6771.14.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: The work from JPackage is something that adds A LOT of value to the Java-on-Linux world. Before them, Java was a piece of junk that I had to throw someplace under /usr/local (aaaargh) or /opt (yuc, arrrrrgh !!!) and define manually one thousand envars. JPackage provides an infrastructure to receive JVMs and Java components and apps in a very organized way. Obviously all RPMs. (was there any system organization before the invention of RPM? do you folks remember Slack(argh)ware? they are still doing tar.gz!!) I can't live without JPackage. I just don't like their .nosrc.rpms, because of licensing issues..... But this will change soon, now that Sun solved their legal problems with Microsoft. Yes, I'm saying we are close to have an open source JVM. From Sun or IBM. Or both. I'm happy RHEL embraced JPackage packaging standards. Thank you Nicolas, and JPackage team. Regards, Avi On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:13:16 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le jeudi 11 novembre 2004 ? 15:09 -0500, Amitabha Roy a ?crit : > > Maybe someone can explain to a complete novice like me what the issue is. > > > > How does being integrated with jpackage help ? > > > > Why is Sun's java not good enough ? > > Sun packages were (and probably still are, didn't look at them for a > long time) little more than a single-root tar-like system. To help > system integration, upgrades we've repackaged most of the big linux jvms > on the market. > > Little things like consistent namings (including package naming;), > locations, virtual provides, etc enable JPackage users to switch JVMs > relatively easily without reconfiguring their whole java system. The > files themselves are extracted from the binary tar drops most vendors > provide, since we don't have access to sources (for people that really > want the original Sun packages we've also got a package that simulates a > jpp rpm by adding symlinks all over the place). > > A human can work around all the changes between one vendor package and > another but you really can't build a large package base over stuff that > is changing all the time. The main JVM repackaging aim is to provide a > stable base other Java packages can then use. > > Regards, > > -- > Nicolas Mailhot From stoicheia at msn.com Fri Nov 12 05:25:06 2004 From: stoicheia at msn.com (Troy Murray) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 05:25:06 +0000 Subject: NTFS support with FC3 Message-ID: I am in the process of migrating a developer workstation (at home) from another Linux distribution over to Fedora Core 3. Does Fedora Core 3 include NTFS support (mount NTFS volumes, read/write files, traverse directories, control permissions/ownership of files and directories)? Troy Murray From drepper at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 05:36:45 2004 From: drepper at redhat.com (Ulrich Drepper) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:36:45 -0800 Subject: Multicast DNS & the ".local" domain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41944BED.9040801@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Felipe Alfaro Solana wrote: > Short question: Does Fedora Core 3 support multicast DNS name resolution > for the ".local" domain? There is no mDNS support in the resolver. Certain other distributors implemented a terribly ugly hack which is beyond wrong. We are not adding that just to have another check on a list of some people. If it is found that mDNS is really useful (which I still am not convinced of) then we can implement it correctly at some point. - -- ? Ulrich Drepper ? Red Hat, Inc. ? 444 Castro St ? Mountain View, CA ? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBlEvt2ijCOnn/RHQRAixGAJ9Jz274/uBQ3qL9+SX4HSxissOgqQCfU9tH g7ykMRsKemgStixBN2tAc3k= =Xr+9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mpeters at mac.com Fri Nov 12 06:22:38 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 06:22:38 +0000 Subject: NTFS support with FC3 In-Reply-To: (from stoicheia@msn.com on Thu Nov 11 21:25:06 2004) References: Message-ID: <1100240558l.5946l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/11/2004 09:25:06 PM, Troy Murray wrote: > Does Fedora Core 3 include NTFS support (mount NTFS volumes, read/ > write files, traverse directories, control permissions/ownership of > files and directories)? No, due to patent issues. rpm.livna.org might (I haven't looked) have a kernel module for ntfs read support, but AFAIK the only ntfs write support that exists is very experimental and can not change the size of the file. Me - I just use a fat32 partition and use that to share files between Linux and Windows. From petersen at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 06:32:36 2004 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:32:36 +0900 Subject: CVS snapshot packages for Emacs crashes In-Reply-To: <77e74f3e041111074063efef6@mail.gmail.com> References: <77e74f3e041111074063efef6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41945904.9030909@redhat.com> Amitabha Roy wrote: > I tried running your latest emacs rpms on my fc3 system. I can get emacs to > crash reliably by trying to saving a file using the toolbar (click on > the save icon on the toolbar). Thanks. This was a build error would be fixed in emacs-21.3.50-0.20041112 which I just uploaded. Jens From symbiont at berlios.de Fri Nov 12 06:49:12 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:49:12 +0800 Subject: NTFS support with FC3 In-Reply-To: <1100240558l.5946l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100240558l.5946l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <200411121449.13030.symbiont@berlios.de> On Friday 12 November 2004 14:22, Michael A. Peters wrote: > Me - I just use a fat32 partition and use that to share files between > ? Linux and Windows. http://uranus.it.swin.edu.au/~jn/linux/explore2fs.htm If you worry about the security implications of your local Windows installation mounting your local Linux ext partition, ponder upon the almighty magnet and then, you'll find it a very useful and convenient utility. For me, though, uninstalling Windows was the most useful utility. have fun, -- -jeff From giallu at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 08:08:44 2004 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:08:44 +0100 Subject: FC3 and my webcam Message-ID: I had around a cheap webcam but were always unable to use it with Linux since there weren't a proper driver in the 2.4 kernler serie. Now, just for curiosity, I plugged it into my newly installed FC3 laptop and it is still not working but there is an improvement; here is the log result: Nov 12 08:56:25 hal9001 kernel: usb 1-1: new full speed USB device using address 6 Nov 12 08:56:25 hal9001 kernel: usb 1-1: SN9C10[12] PC Camera Controller detected (vid/pid 0x0C45/0x600D) Nov 12 08:56:25 hal9001 kernel: usb 1-1: PAS106B image sensor detected Nov 12 08:56:26 hal9001 kernel: usb 1-1: Initialization succeeded Nov 12 08:56:26 hal9001 kernel: usb 1-1: V4L2 device registered as /dev/video0 Nov 12 08:56:31 hal9001 wait_for_sysfs[6811]: either wait_for_sysfs (udev 039) needs an update to handle the device '/class/video4linux/video0' properly (no device symlink) or the sysfs-support of your device's driver needs to be fixed, please report to Probably if I made my homeworks now I would be able to fix the thing myself but this is not the case :( Should I report this thing to the linux-hotplug ML, bugzilla.redhat.com or what? thanks in advance Gianluca From arnaud.abelard at univ-nantes.fr Fri Nov 12 12:02:11 2004 From: arnaud.abelard at univ-nantes.fr (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arnaud_Ab=E9lard?=) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:02:11 +0100 Subject: root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash !?! In-Reply-To: <20041111233400.GA24473@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <4193B9A9.20504@univ-nantes.fr> <20041111233400.GA24473@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4194A643.2020901@univ-nantes.fr> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alan Cox wrote: | On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 08:12:41PM +0100, Arnaud Ab?lard wrote: | |>I just noticed that the default /etc/passwd file installed by the |>package setup-2.5.33-1.noarch.rpm (on a FC2, i don't know about FC1 and |>FC3 yet) contains the line root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash. | | | File a bug against setup - its a good comment and it could easily default | to * | i did.. and i didn't get the reaction i was expecting.. duplicated of a ~ "closed wontfix" bug: mine: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138878 the original bug, "closed won't fix" | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=133762 Maybe it needs some more argumentation, but i don't understand how changing it to * would cause any upgrade problem? Arnaud -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBlKZDu1PiD4+WtDcRAoQTAJ9VYAXZxyfSnlZNO4HVf6SsCh1ieACcCRpO 7j5zAb0xKUN/332pqzudNEI= =/Nxt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Fri Nov 12 12:16:00 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:16:00 +0100 Subject: root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash !?! In-Reply-To: <4194A643.2020901@univ-nantes.fr> References: <4193B9A9.20504@univ-nantes.fr> <20041111233400.GA24473@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4194A643.2020901@univ-nantes.fr> Message-ID: <20041112131600.3c528018.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Arnaud Ab?lard wrote : > |>I just noticed that the default /etc/passwd file installed by the > |>package setup-2.5.33-1.noarch.rpm (on a FC2, i don't know about FC1 > and|>FC3 yet) contains the line root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash. > | > | File a bug against setup - its a good comment and it could easily > default| to * > > i did.. and i didn't get the reaction i was expecting.. duplicated of a > ~ "closed wontfix" bug: > > mine: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138878 > > the original bug, "closed won't fix" > > | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=133762 > > Maybe it needs some more argumentation, but i don't understand how > changing it to * would cause any upgrade problem? And I can't even see the reasons given, as I get : "You are not authorized to access bug #133762." :-( Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.667.radeonfb Load : 1.50 1.17 0.94 From buildsys at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 12:48:33 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:48:33 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041112 changes Message-ID: <200411121248.iACCmXH31415@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Fri Nov 12 13:33:18 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:33:18 -0600 Subject: NTFS support with FC3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004d01c4c8bc$2ef4ab90$4801a8c0@C515816A> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Troy Murray > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:25 PM > To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > Subject: NTFS support with FC3 > > I am in the process of migrating a developer workstation (at home) from > another Linux distribution over to Fedora Core 3. > > Does Fedora Core 3 include NTFS support (mount NTFS volumes, read/write > files, traverse directories, control permissions/ownership of files and > directories)? > > Troy Murray > There are some serious issues that you should consider before trying to write to the windows partition. If you search the knowledge base you can ferret out these issues. Of course you will need to add the ntfs support and that can be done either by rebuilding the kernel to include the support with write capabilities or by finding some site that you can download the modules for your kernel. Good luck, I rebuilt my kernel to add the support and the write capability(which I will never use) and that creates other issues so as I said search the knowledge base to get a firm idea on what you want to do. From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 12 15:54:55 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:54:55 +0100 Subject: Multicast DNS & the ".local" domain In-Reply-To: References: <1100200131.3865.1.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100274895.4132.4.camel@kyrre> fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 00.44 skrev Felipe Alfaro Solana: > On Nov 11, 2004, at 20:09, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 18.54 skrev Felipe Alfaro Solana: > >> Short question: Does Fedora Core 3 support multicast DNS name > >> resolution for the ".local" domain? > >> > >> Long: I can resolv my Linux hostname from my Mac OS X computer, but my > >> Linux box can't resolve my Mac OS X hostname. > >> > >> Looking at the network traffic, Mac OS X name queries for the ".local" > >> domain do send mDNS traffic to the multicast mDNS address. Linux > >> queries for the ".local" domain go against my ISP DNS server. > > > > So that is what "mDNS" stands for. What is it? Where can i find > > documentation? Simple, easy-to-understand explanations? Does it mean > > that i can name my computer "kyrre.local" and it will automatically be > > discovered and resolved on the LAN? > > mDNS is a piece of Apple?s Rendezvous technology. There others are > automatic link-local IPv4 address allocation and service discovery. > Fedora Core 3 already has support for the multicast DNS responder part > of Rendezvous, in form of the ?howl?package (see > http://www.porchdogsoft.com/products/howl). > > Also, take a look at http://developer.apple.com/macosx/rendezvous > > The problem I'm having is that Linux mDNSResponder service works pretty > well: when a Mac OS X computer asks mDNSResponder, it does. What I'm > unable to achieve is just the opposite: make glibc's resolver use > multicast DNS to resolve queries for the ".local" domain. It seems, > however, that both SUSE and Gentoo have patches to make this work, and > I wanted to know why Fedora does not. So in short - those who connect a mac to a network containing a FC3 print-server but no DNS, does now not have to fiddle with hosts? It should JustWork(tm)? But Fedora itself cannot be a client without some (ugly) patch? Kyrre From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 12 16:00:10 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:00:10 +0100 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> <1100207596.6771.14.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1100275210.4132.8.camel@kyrre> Okay - so Jpackage is not a self-contained JRE - it is an organisation sanely packing up JRE's from others, such as Sun? Would that mean that Sun JRE (or some other?) will be shipped with FC3? I agree with you that sun's java packages are bad. That is why i let Dag Wieers make a good rpm for me ;) Thanks! But then i have only used java for mozilla plugin... fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 03.41 skrev Avi Alkalay: > The work from JPackage is something that adds A LOT of value to the > Java-on-Linux world. > Before them, Java was a piece of junk that I had to throw someplace > under /usr/local (aaaargh) or /opt (yuc, arrrrrgh !!!) and define > manually one thousand envars. > > JPackage provides an infrastructure to receive JVMs and Java > components and apps in a very organized way. Obviously all RPMs. (was > there any system organization before the invention of RPM? do you > folks remember Slack(argh)ware? they are still doing tar.gz!!) > > I can't live without JPackage. > > I just don't like their .nosrc.rpms, because of licensing issues..... > But this will change soon, now that Sun solved their legal problems > with Microsoft. Yes, I'm saying we are close to have an open source > JVM. From Sun or IBM. Or both. > > I'm happy RHEL embraced JPackage packaging standards. > > Thank you Nicolas, and JPackage team. > > Regards, > Avi > > On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:13:16 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot > wrote: > > Le jeudi 11 novembre 2004 ? 15:09 -0500, Amitabha Roy a ?crit : > > > Maybe someone can explain to a complete novice like me what the issue is. > > > > > > How does being integrated with jpackage help ? > > > > > > Why is Sun's java not good enough ? > > > > Sun packages were (and probably still are, didn't look at them for a > > long time) little more than a single-root tar-like system. To help > > system integration, upgrades we've repackaged most of the big linux jvms > > on the market. > > > > Little things like consistent namings (including package naming;), > > locations, virtual provides, etc enable JPackage users to switch JVMs > > relatively easily without reconfiguring their whole java system. The > > files themselves are extracted from the binary tar drops most vendors > > provide, since we don't have access to sources (for people that really > > want the original Sun packages we've also got a package that simulates a > > jpp rpm by adding symlinks all over the place). > > > > A human can work around all the changes between one vendor package and > > another but you really can't build a large package base over stuff that > > is changing all the time. The main JVM repackaging aim is to provide a > > stable base other Java packages can then use. > > > > Regards, > > > > -- > > Nicolas Mailhot From royamitabha at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 16:07:57 2004 From: royamitabha at gmail.com (Amitabha Roy) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:07:57 -0500 Subject: Problem with compiling packages Message-ID: <77e74f3e04111208072fe6cc98@mail.gmail.com> Hello: I have a rather run of the mill Fedora box running FC3 which for some reason refuses to compile large projects. For example, lets say I check out CVS emacs, run configure and make, it starts the compilation process, runs for a while and then either the machine freezes (and I have to restart the machine) or it just reboots. The same thing happens when I try to recompile kdemultimedia according to the advice in http://www.holovaty.com/linux/fedorafaq/kde_mp3.html I do not know whether this a gcc leak or what it is. There is no log of what exactly causes this as far as I can see. Can someone please suggest ways I can debug this ? Or some way to hunt down the culprit ? Amitabha From tromey at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 16:09:06 2004 From: tromey at redhat.com (Tom Tromey) Date: 12 Nov 2004 09:09:06 -0700 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> <1100207596.6771.14.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: >>>>> "Avi" == Avi Alkalay writes: Avi> But this will change soon, now that Sun solved their legal problems Avi> with Microsoft. Yes, I'm saying we are close to have an open source Avi> JVM. From Sun or IBM. Or both. That's a provocative statement! I'm curious to hear what inside info you might have on this topic... :-) Tom From keven at mitre.org Fri Nov 12 16:10:46 2004 From: keven at mitre.org (Keven Ring) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:10:46 -0500 Subject: Problems mounting digital camera on FC3 Message-ID: <4194E086.9060207@mitre.org> I posted this to fedora-list a couple of days ago, but have not had any responses. Given past successes with getting problems solved there, I am going to assume that either noone else has this problem, or no one has any ideas what is different, and how to get it to work. That being said, I have a Nikon D70 digital camera that I am trying to mount on a freshly installed FC3. When I plug the camera in, and turn it on, I get the following messages in /var/log/messages (editted for brevity): Nov 9 14:31:14 localhost kernel: usb 2-1: new full speed USB device using address 8 Nov 9 14:31:14 localhost kernel: scsi3 : SCSI emulation for USB Mass Storage devices Nov 9 14:31:14 localhost kernel: Vendor: NIKON Model: D70 Rev: 1.01 Nov 9 14:31:14 localhost kernel: Type: Direct-Access ANSI SCSI revision: 02 Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda: Spinning up disk......ready Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: SCSI device sda: 3999745 512-byte hdwr sectors (2048 MB) Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda: Write Protect is off Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda: assuming drive cache: write through Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda:end_request: I/O error, dev sda, sector 3999744 Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block 3999744 Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev sda, sector 3999744 Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block 3999744 Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda1 Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: Attached scsi removable disk sda at scsi3, channel 0, id 0, lun 0 Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost scsi.agent[20673]: disk at /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.4/usb2/2-1/2-1:1.0/host3/3:0:0:0 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev sda, sector 63 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 0 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 1 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 2 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 3 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 4 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 5 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 6 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 7 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev sda, sector 575 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 512 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 513 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 514 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 515 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 516 Nov 9 14:31:19 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda1, logical block 517 .... This continues for some while. If I were just looking at this, I might assume that the CF card (actually, a microdrive) was improperly formatted, or that there were other problems reading the card. However, using the same exact computer, but booting into a stock FC1, I have no problems (although I have to mount /dev/sda1 myself). Note, I have not been able to successfully mount the camera in either FC2 or FC3, suggesting a problem with the 2.6 kernel (could be a red herring, but...). Any recommendations on how to proceed or test would be greatly appreciated. I can provide additional information, as requested (eg, FC1 /var/log/messages, lsmod, etc). Tonight, I am going to try and build a stock 2.6 kernel, and see if that helps, hinders, or continues with the same results. TIA -- Keven Ring | "Oh no, Not Again..." The MITRE Corporation | Bowl of Petunias - 7515 Colshire Drive | The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy McLean VA 22102-7508 | PH: (703)883-7026 | From johnp at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 16:14:44 2004 From: johnp at redhat.com (John (J5) Palmieri) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:14:44 -0500 Subject: Problem with compiling packages In-Reply-To: <77e74f3e04111208072fe6cc98@mail.gmail.com> References: <77e74f3e04111208072fe6cc98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100276084.27493.17.camel@remedyz.boston.redhat.com> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 11:07 -0500, Amitabha Roy wrote: > Hello: > I have a rather run of the mill Fedora box running FC3 which for some reason > refuses to compile large projects. For example, lets say I check > out CVS emacs, run configure and make, it starts the compilation process, > runs for a while and then either the machine freezes (and I have to > restart the machine) > or it just reboots. > > The same thing happens when I try to recompile kdemultimedia > according to the advice in > http://www.holovaty.com/linux/fedorafaq/kde_mp3.html > > I do not know whether this a gcc leak or what it is. > > There is no log of what exactly causes this as far as I can see. > Can someone please suggest ways I can debug this ? > Or some way to hunt down the culprit ? > > Amitabha Are you sure it is not a hardware problem? I used to have problems with my AMD cpu overheating during intensive tasks such as massive compiles. This would trip the sensors that protect the CPU from melting and either freeze the OS or reboot the machine. Getting some silver conducting paste from the local computer shop and resetting my heat sync fixed the problem. -- John (J5) Palmieri Associate Software Engineer Desktop Group Red Hat, Inc. Blog: http://martianrock.com From alan at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 16:15:34 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:15:34 -0500 Subject: Problems mounting digital camera on FC3 In-Reply-To: <4194E086.9060207@mitre.org> References: <4194E086.9060207@mitre.org> Message-ID: <20041112161534.GA13696@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 11:10:46AM -0500, Keven Ring wrote: > Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda: Write Protect is off > Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda: assuming drive cache: write through > Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda:end_request: I/O error, dev sda, > sector 3999744 > Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, > logical block 3999744 > Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev sda, > sector 3999744 > Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, > logical block 3999744 We tried to read the EFI partition data. That kills some devices if they also report the size wrong (eg the ipod mini). You'll probably find that with a custom kernel it matters whether you have EFI partitioning on or off. If so let me know - it needs a USB quirk entry. From keven at mitre.org Fri Nov 12 16:28:27 2004 From: keven at mitre.org (Keven Ring) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:28:27 -0500 Subject: Problems mounting digital camera on FC3 In-Reply-To: <20041112161534.GA13696@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <4194E086.9060207@mitre.org> <20041112161534.GA13696@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4194E4AB.2050902@mitre.org> Alan Cox wrote: >On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 11:10:46AM -0500, Keven Ring wrote: > > >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda: Write Protect is off >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda: assuming drive cache: write through >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda:end_request: I/O error, dev sda, >>sector 3999744 >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, >>logical block 3999744 >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev sda, >>sector 3999744 >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, >>logical block 3999744 >> >> > >We tried to read the EFI partition data. That kills some devices if they >also report the size wrong (eg the ipod mini). You'll probably find that >with a custom kernel it matters whether you have EFI partitioning on or >off. If so let me know - it needs a USB quirk entry. > > > OK, I'll be sure to try it both ways in the custom kernel. In terms of your second statement, the camera did have a 2G microdrive on board at the time, so the line: Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: SCSI device sda: 3999745 512-byte hdwr sectors (2048 MB) is at least indicating the correct size. Of course, if the sector size wasn't 512 bytes, then there could be problems.. :) To be honest, I have no clue what the camera sets the sector size to be. Thanks for the quick insight. -- Keven Ring | "Oh no, Not Again..." The MITRE Corporation | Bowl of Petunias - 7515 Colshire Drive | The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy McLean VA 22102-7508 | PH: (703)883-7026 | From avibrazil at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 16:50:49 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:50:49 -0300 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> <1100207596.6771.14.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Why provocative ? And this is not an inside info..... All the industry is perceiving the importance of Open Source Java. I'm not saying an Open Source implementation of the JVM, but more than that. Sun couldn't make Java a completelly open thing (it was allways open in terms of specification and interoperability) because of the Microsoft trial. If they opened it, the trial had no sense anymore. Now that this is over and Microsoft payied some money to Sun (its not an investment on Sun, but a legal agreenment), Sun can at least think about open sourcing it in the right way. And due to market pressures, IBM letter to Sun, Eric Raymond letter to Sun, etc, we expect and hope something will happen soon. The JCP is already an open process, open for individuals too. This is MY understanding of what I've being listening from Sun, etc speakers in Open Source and strategic technology events. I may be wrong. So it is better to see it happening soon, instead of trusting in my opinion :-) More about Java and J2EE: You can like it, you can dislike it. But Java is the only technology (or standard) that has an extremely strong ecosystem of business software developers, COTS (components off the shelf), and providers. It is fully supported by the entire industry (except 1 company) for business critical applications, and is already the de-facto standard for high quality business process software development. I don't see customers writing business-oriented software in C or C++. This ecosystem is way more important than some technological drawbacks of Java. PHP, and other middleware-type software don't have such a strong ecosystem. Do you want an inside info? A friend that works on Microsoft said they created .NET because they were affraid of the potential Linux+J2EE may have, and they wanted to reserve their position in the business applications space. Just my 2 cents, Regards, Avi On 12 Nov 2004 09:09:06 -0700, Tom Tromey wrote: > >>>>> "Avi" == Avi Alkalay writes: > > Avi> But this will change soon, now that Sun solved their legal problems > Avi> with Microsoft. Yes, I'm saying we are close to have an open source > Avi> JVM. From Sun or IBM. Or both. > > That's a provocative statement! I'm curious to hear what inside info > you might have on this topic... :-) > > Tom > From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Nov 12 16:55:03 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:55:03 -0500 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: <1100275210.4132.8.camel@kyrre> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> <1100207596.6771.14.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100275210.4132.8.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <20041112165503.GA6562@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 05:00:10PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > Would that mean that Sun JRE (or some other?) will be shipped with FC3? The Sun one certainly can't be, until Sun changes the license. (Not just as a matter of "it's not open source principle -- the license actually forbids it.) -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From alan at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 16:59:09 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:59:09 -0500 Subject: Problems mounting digital camera on FC3 In-Reply-To: <4194E4AB.2050902@mitre.org> References: <4194E086.9060207@mitre.org> <20041112161534.GA13696@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4194E4AB.2050902@mitre.org> Message-ID: <20041112165909.GB9448@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 11:28:27AM -0500, Keven Ring wrote: > In terms of your second statement, the camera did have a 2G microdrive > on board at the time, so the line: > Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: SCSI device sda: 3999745 512-byte hdwr > sectors (2048 MB) > is at least indicating the correct size. Of course, if the sector size > wasn't 512 bytes, then there could be problems.. :) To be honest, I > have no clue what the camera sets the sector size to be. I'd expect to see 3999744 actually From rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net Fri Nov 12 17:17:05 2004 From: rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net (Ronald S. Bultje) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:17:05 +0100 Subject: ogg streams and rhythmbox In-Reply-To: <1099551111l.3973l.6l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1099551111l.3973l.6l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1100279825.2767.47.camel@tux.lan> Hi, somewhat late: On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 07:51, Michael A. Peters wrote: > Do ogg shoutcast streams work in Rhythmbox as it is? Not in the releases provided with Fedora. Current CVS of GStreamer supports it, though. Totem plays radio streams. Rhythmbox will need minor adjustments and will then support it as well. Ronald -- Ronald S. Bultje From news at andyjeffries.co.uk Fri Nov 12 17:37:55 2004 From: news at andyjeffries.co.uk (Andy Jeffries) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:37:55 +0000 Subject: Proposing inclusion of a new package Message-ID: Hi all, I created a bug regarding trying to get my application distributed with Fedora Core, but apparently that's not the way it gets done with Fedora (it is with Gentoo). The application is gPHPEdit and I've just released version 0.9.50. To see what it's about go here: http://www.gphpedit.org/features.phtml And to see what's new in the latest version go here: http://www.gphpedit.org/whats-new-0.9.50.phtml Anyway, if someone fancies either going ahead and including it in the distro or pointing me to the procedure for getting it included (or telling me to get lost for whatever reason), feel free to let me know. Cheers, Andy From shiva at sewingwitch.com Fri Nov 12 18:09:46 2004 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:09:46 -0800 Subject: Proposing inclusion of a new package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --On Friday, November 12, 2004 5:37 PM +0000 Andy Jeffries wrote: > Anyway, if someone fancies either going ahead and including it in the > distro or pointing me to the procedure for getting it included (or > telling me to get lost for whatever reason), feel free to let me know. This is probably a good place to start: From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 12 18:40:27 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:40:27 +0100 Subject: Problem with compiling packages In-Reply-To: <1100276084.27493.17.camel@remedyz.boston.redhat.com> References: <77e74f3e04111208072fe6cc98@mail.gmail.com> <1100276084.27493.17.camel@remedyz.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100284827.4132.28.camel@kyrre> fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 17.14 skrev John (J5) Palmieri: > On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 11:07 -0500, Amitabha Roy wrote: > > Hello: > > I have a rather run of the mill Fedora box running FC3 which for some reason > > refuses to compile large projects. For example, lets say I check > > out CVS emacs, run configure and make, it starts the compilation process, > > runs for a while and then either the machine freezes (and I have to > > restart the machine) > > or it just reboots. > > > > The same thing happens when I try to recompile kdemultimedia > > according to the advice in > > http://www.holovaty.com/linux/fedorafaq/kde_mp3.html > > > > I do not know whether this a gcc leak or what it is. > > > > There is no log of what exactly causes this as far as I can see. > > Can someone please suggest ways I can debug this ? > > Or some way to hunt down the culprit ? > > > > Amitabha > > Are you sure it is not a hardware problem? I used to have problems with > my AMD cpu overheating during intensive tasks such as massive compiles. > This would trip the sensors that protect the CPU from melting and either > freeze the OS or reboot the machine. Getting some silver conducting > paste from the local computer shop and resetting my heat sync fixed the > problem. Or it could be a memory failure. I personaly heard it suggested several times that compiling OO is a good test for memory correctness, beckause it does a helluva lot more to the machine and demands quite a lot more than a simple RAM test... From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 12 18:45:03 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:45:03 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041110 changes In-Reply-To: <200411102310.iAANAA012113@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411102310.iAANAA012113@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100285103.4132.32.camel@kyrre> > > firefox-0:1.0-1 > --------------- > * Mon Nov 08 2004 Christopher Aillon 0:1.0-1 > - Firefox 1.0 When will it reach stable? And FC2? (will there be added more packages to a release *after* release - ie new packages that you have to add to the repo and install by yum, that isn't on the cd? > openoffice.org-1.1.2-11.7 > ------------------------- > * Mon Nov 08 2004 Dan Williams - 1.1.2-11 > - #rh120055# enable .doc mscodec backport for 1.1.2 (Caolan) > - #rh136907# Wrong colors in openoffice menubars > - #rh106548# Openoffice 1.1 places '.' on LD_LIBRARY_PATH (Caolan) > - #rh137281# OpenOffice crashes due to "lack of memory" (Caolan) > - #rh137335# OOo should not depend on evolution-devel > - #rh137854# Japanese document from Windows is heavily broken > - #rh137799# German spell checker does not work > - #rh137741# Warnings about dictionary list corruption on startup > - #rh137307# Cannot show hidden columns in calc > - #rh137977# Open Office failes to recognise TXT datasource after upgrade > - #rh118742# Templates/wizards in Polish language not working > - #rh123758# Writer does not fallback to english for Index templates > - #rh137395# [x86_64][OOo] installation of OpenOffice.org 1.1.2 failed > - #rh102287# Prelink failures with openoffice (Caolan) > - #rh137487# (partial) Norwegian translation includes som german texts > - #rh137969# crashes openoffice-1.1.2-10 under certain circumstances (Caolan) > - #rh129719# (partial) Incorporate updated Gujarati translation > - #rh107298# Remove File->Autopilots->Report menu for NoJava builds (Caolan) > - #rh110934# OpenOffice Writer locks up when pasting image (Caolan) > - #rh120696# splash window has title "untitled window" (Caolan) > - #rh138317# Printer setting is scrambled for Japanese env > - Change naming schemes so upgrades work (ex FC2 -> FC3) even with > the same NVR on both OS versions When will OO 1.1.3 be there? From jason at userful.com Fri Nov 12 18:55:31 2004 From: jason at userful.com (Jason Kim) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:55:31 -0700 Subject: problem with font Message-ID: <1100285730.3217.14.camel@sophi.userful.ca> Hi all, I've just downloaded FC3 and installed it. Interestingly, my Xlib program doesn't work with FC3. Instead I got the message, "Error: cannot find the font". I'm using the"lucidasans-18" in my program. I've read FC3 release notes, and found some changes in the font system. But it is over my head. What cause this problem and how can I fix it. Jason From greg at kroah.com Fri Nov 12 19:30:09 2004 From: greg at kroah.com (Greg KH) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:30:09 -0800 Subject: FC3 and my webcam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041112193009.GA721@kroah.com> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 09:08:44AM +0100, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > I had around a cheap webcam but were always unable to use it with > Linux since there weren't a proper driver in the 2.4 kernler serie. > Now, just for curiosity, I plugged it into my newly installed FC3 > laptop and it is still not working but there is an improvement; here > is the log result: Looks like your device is working just fine. Just access /dev/video0 and away you go. > Nov 12 08:56:31 hal9001 wait_for_sysfs[6811]: either wait_for_sysfs > (udev 039) needs an update to handle the device > '/class/video4linux/video0' properly (no device symlink) or the > sysfs-support of your device's driver needs to be fixed, please report > to This is fixed in newer versions of udev, you can safely ignore it. thanks, greg k-h From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 12 19:30:03 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:30:03 +0100 Subject: Stateless Linux In-Reply-To: <1100197442.4568.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> <1100196930.2683.10.camel@kyrre> <1100197442.4568.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100287803.4132.45.camel@kyrre> tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 19.24 skrev Dan Young: > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 19:15 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > Just wondering - is there any "out of the box" ltsp rpm's to be found > > (for fc3)? I have some thin clients and a thin client server, and really > > want to run it off LTSP > > k12ltsp.org > > Current version is on FC2 but I think Eric Harrison is looking to fix > that Real Soon Now. > I have a (otherwise) all-fc2 (soon 3) net (at a school). How easily would it be to put a k12LTSP server in the middle of this? > -- > Dan Young > Parkrose School District From robilad at kaffe.org Fri Nov 12 19:49:43 2004 From: robilad at kaffe.org (Dalibor Topic) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:49:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> <1100207596.6771.14.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Avi Alkalay gmail.com> writes: > > Why provocative ? Because if we were really 'close to have an open source JVM. From Sun or IBM. Or both.' that would contradict Sun what has been repeatedly saying in the past 8 years, or so: they do *not* want to do it. Stranger things have happened, but it would be an extremely unlikely move for Sun. > And this is not an inside info..... OK, so it's just speculation based on what you read into some events, or so. Nothing to see here, world can move on. cheers, dalibor topic From tibbs at math.uh.edu Fri Nov 12 19:54:01 2004 From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:54:01 -0600 Subject: rawhide report: 20041110 changes In-Reply-To: <1100285103.4132.32.camel@kyrre> (Kyrre Ness Sjobak's message of "Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:45:03 +0100") References: <200411102310.iAANAA012113@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <1100285103.4132.32.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: >>>>> "KNS" == Kyrre Ness Sjobak writes: KNS> When will it reach stable? It's already in updates. - J< From felipe_alfaro at linuxmail.org Fri Nov 12 19:56:47 2004 From: felipe_alfaro at linuxmail.org (Felipe Alfaro Solana) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:56:47 +0100 Subject: Multicast DNS & the ".local" domain In-Reply-To: <1100274895.4132.4.camel@kyrre> References: <1100200131.3865.1.camel@kyrre> <1100274895.4132.4.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2004, at 16:54, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 00.44 skrev Felipe Alfaro Solana: >> On Nov 11, 2004, at 20:09, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: >> >>> tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 18.54 skrev Felipe Alfaro Solana: >>>> Short question: Does Fedora Core 3 support multicast DNS name >>>> resolution for the ".local" domain? >>>> >>>> Long: I can resolv my Linux hostname from my Mac OS X computer, but >>>> my >>>> Linux box can't resolve my Mac OS X hostname. >>>> >>>> Looking at the network traffic, Mac OS X name queries for the >>>> ".local" >>>> domain do send mDNS traffic to the multicast mDNS address. Linux >>>> queries for the ".local" domain go against my ISP DNS server. >>> >>> So that is what "mDNS" stands for. What is it? Where can i find >>> documentation? Simple, easy-to-understand explanations? Does it mean >>> that i can name my computer "kyrre.local" and it will automatically >>> be >>> discovered and resolved on the LAN? >> >> mDNS is a piece of Apple?s Rendezvous technology. There others are >> automatic link-local IPv4 address allocation and service discovery. >> Fedora Core 3 already has support for the multicast DNS responder part >> of Rendezvous, in form of the ?howl?package (see >> http://www.porchdogsoft.com/products/howl). >> >> Also, take a look at http://developer.apple.com/macosx/rendezvous >> >> The problem I'm having is that Linux mDNSResponder service works >> pretty >> well: when a Mac OS X computer asks mDNSResponder, it does. What I'm >> unable to achieve is just the opposite: make glibc's resolver use >> multicast DNS to resolve queries for the ".local" domain. It seems, >> however, that both SUSE and Gentoo have patches to make this work, and >> I wanted to know why Fedora does not. > > So in short - those who connect a mac to a network containing a FC3 > print-server but no DNS, does now not have to fiddle with hosts? It > should JustWork(tm)? Yes, but the mDNSResponder daemon must be running, and it's recommended that you use a ".local" domain. You don't need to publish any IPP (the Internet Printing Protocol) into /etc/howl/mDNSResponder.conf, since both Fedora and Mac OS X use CUPS. CUPS does allow for on-the-fly printer publishing, that is, whenever Fedora bring CUPS up, it will advertise the printers it has configured, and the Mac OS X will use that information to build a list of available printers. If you don't want CUPS to broadcast information, you can statically publish an IPP record into Howl so the printer is also available automatically via Rendezvous. From smooge at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 20:07:04 2004 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen J. Smoogen) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:07:04 -0700 Subject: Stateless Linux In-Reply-To: <1100287803.4132.45.camel@kyrre> References: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> <1100196930.2683.10.camel@kyrre> <1100197442.4568.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100287803.4132.45.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <80d7e409041112120726c1f813@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:30:03 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 19.24 skrev Dan Young: > > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 19:15 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > Just wondering - is there any "out of the box" ltsp rpm's to be found > > > (for fc3)? I have some thin clients and a thin client server, and really > > > want to run it off LTSP > > > > k12ltsp.org > > > > Current version is on FC2 but I think Eric Harrison is looking to fix > > that Real Soon Now. > > > > I have a (otherwise) all-fc2 (soon 3) net (at a school). How easily > would it be to put a k12LTSP server in the middle of this? > I think that the K12LTSP people are working on the RPMS needed for this. 4.2.0 or something is the release number for it. From avibrazil at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 20:08:16 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:08:16 -0300 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> <1100207596.6771.14.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Yeah, move on. On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:49:43 +0000 (UTC), Dalibor Topic wrote: > Avi Alkalay gmail.com> writes: > > > > > Why provocative ? > > Because if we were really 'close to have an open source JVM. From Sun or IBM. Or > both.' that would contradict Sun what has been repeatedly saying in the past 8 > years, or so: they do *not* want to do it. > > Stranger things have happened, but it would be an extremely unlikely move for > Sun. > > > And this is not an inside info..... > > OK, so it's just speculation based on what you read into some events, or so. > Nothing to see here, world can move on. > > cheers, > dalibor topic > > -- From mpeters at mac.com Fri Nov 12 20:20:37 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:20:37 +0000 Subject: Problem with compiling packages In-Reply-To: <1100284827.4132.28.camel@kyrre> (from kyrre@solution-forge.net on Fri Nov 12 10:40:27 2004) References: <77e74f3e04111208072fe6cc98@mail.gmail.com> <1100276084.27493.17.camel@remedyz.boston.redhat.com> <1100284827.4132.28.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100290837l.3451l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/12/2004 10:40:27 AM, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > I personaly heard it suggested several times that compiling OO is a > good > test for memory correctness, beckause it does a helluva lot more to > the > machine and demands quite a lot more than a simple RAM test... Wow - a legitimate reason for the bloat :D From ee21rh at surrey.ac.uk Fri Nov 12 20:41:51 2004 From: ee21rh at surrey.ac.uk (Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng)) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:41:51 -0000 Subject: Fedora power management Message-ID: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB605@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> Scenario: I use a toshiba laptop that uses ACPI. In gnome there is no way to easy change the brightness of the display without going to root in a terminal. Also, I can't remove my pcmcia adapter without being root in a terminal window. Both of which the average user would want to do. I can do this simply by clicking icons on the WindowsXP taskbar. Also, when my battery runs low, I get an event in gnome, telling me the time left. If I ignore this message, my machine just powers off, and does not shutdown or suspend. I have an idea that would use DBUS and HAL, much in the way of Project Utopia suggests. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/utopia-list/2004-May/msg00019.html A DBUS enabled service called, say, PowerService (with root privs) that could execute the needed commands: #echo "brightness: 3" > /sys/acpi/toshiba/lcd or #cardctl eject or #shutdown -h Depending on the value of a config file. PowerService could also supply (a modified) battstat with it's information about battery levels and whether it is on mains or battery. An extra applet could be designed to control the brightness of the lcd display, and also an eject applet (only visible if pcmcia card inserted) that would allow me to eject in one click. PowerService could load a policy when the cable is removed, say for instance to slow the processor and to dim the screen. I have created an applet that lets me change the brightness for the time being, but the idea of lots of small services for each task, and multiple applets with system-specific options is non-ideal. Has this been done before? Or is it worth discussion? I thought I would try you guys at f-d-l and then try the gnome people when I know more good ideas/case studies. Richard Hughes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dhollis at davehollis.com Fri Nov 12 21:18:18 2004 From: dhollis at davehollis.com (David Hollis) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:18:18 +0200 Subject: FC3 and my webcam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100294298.16570.5.camel@dhollis-lnx.centricconsulting.com> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 09:08 +0100, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > I had around a cheap webcam but were always unable to use it with > Linux since there weren't a proper driver in the 2.4 kernler serie. > Now, just for curiosity, I plugged it into my newly installed FC3 > laptop and it is still not working but there is an improvement; here > is the log result: > The homepage for the sn9c10x driver is at: http://www.linux-projects.org/modules/news/ You'll notice the big blurb about the driver only supporting the Video4Linux2 API, not v1, which is what most apps are. Your device is working just fine, it's the apps that need to be updated. Most/all apps don't currently support the new API so feel free to roll up your sleeves and write some patches! -- David Hollis -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From news at andyjeffries.co.uk Fri Nov 12 21:20:10 2004 From: news at andyjeffries.co.uk (Andy Jeffries) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:20:10 +0000 Subject: Proposing inclusion of a new package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kenneth Porter wrote: >> Anyway, if someone fancies either going ahead and including it in the >> distro or pointing me to the procedure for getting it included (or >> telling me to get lost for whatever reason), feel free to let me know. > > This is probably a good place to start: > > Thanks for the pointer (and I'll try again soon), but for now I get: lib/WikiDB/backend/PearDB.php:32: Fatal[256]: Can't connect to database: wikidb_backend_mysql: fatal database error * DB Error: connect failed * ( [nativecode=Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (2)] ** mysql://fedorawikiuser:XXXXXXXX at localhost/fedorawiki) * lib/WikiDB/backend/PearDB.php:32: Fatal[256]: Can't connect to database: wikidb_backend_mysql: fatal database error * DB Error: connect failed * ( [nativecode=Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (2)] ** mysql://fedorawikiuser:XXXXXXXX at localhost/fedorawiki) From arnaud.abelard at univ-nantes.fr Fri Nov 12 21:37:41 2004 From: arnaud.abelard at univ-nantes.fr (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arnaud_Ab=E9lard?=) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:37:41 +0100 Subject: root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash !?! In-Reply-To: <20041112131600.3c528018.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <4193B9A9.20504@univ-nantes.fr> <20041111233400.GA24473@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4194A643.2020901@univ-nantes.fr> <20041112131600.3c528018.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <41952D25.8080002@univ-nantes.fr> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Matthias Saou wrote: | Arnaud Ab?lard wrote : | | |>|>I just noticed that the default /etc/passwd file installed by the |>|>package setup-2.5.33-1.noarch.rpm (on a FC2, i don't know about FC1 |>and|>FC3 yet) contains the line root::0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash. |>| |>| File a bug against setup - its a good comment and it could easily |>default| to * |> |>i did.. and i didn't get the reaction i was expecting.. duplicated of a |>~ "closed wontfix" bug: |> |>mine: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138878 |> |>the original bug, "closed won't fix" |> |>| https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=133762 |> |>Maybe it needs some more argumentation, but i don't understand how |>changing it to * would cause any upgrade problem? | | | And I can't even see the reasons given, as I get : | "You are not authorized to access bug #133762." | | :-( Bill Nottingham just copied the reason why the original bug was closed WONTFIX in my bug report which is available to everybody. Arnaud -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBlS0lu1PiD4+WtDcRAsAWAJ9XacnfpRGVSiAXgbwzBFhDkjxS6gCdEW2h ln2m2v0pLFUOO9HtvdP3+IM= =FZfF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jason at userful.com Fri Nov 12 21:34:55 2004 From: jason at userful.com (Jason Kim) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:34:55 -0700 Subject: problem with font In-Reply-To: <1100285730.3217.14.camel@sophi.userful.ca> References: <1100285730.3217.14.camel@sophi.userful.ca> Message-ID: <1100295295.2123.3.camel@sophi.userful.ca> I fixed it.. Sorry for noise.. I found that there is no real font file for alias, "lucidasans-18", in the FC3. On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 11:55, Jason Kim wrote: > Hi all, > > I've just downloaded FC3 and installed it. > > Interestingly, my Xlib program doesn't work with FC3. > Instead I got the message, "Error: cannot find the font". > > I'm using the"lucidasans-18" in my program. > > I've read FC3 release notes, and found some changes in the font system. > But it is over my head. > > What cause this problem and how can I fix it. > > Jason -- *********************************** Jason Kim, Software Developer http://userful.com 2nd Floor, 928-6th Ave SW Calgary, AB T2P 0V5 Tel: 403-289-2177 EXT: 210 866-USERFUL (873-7385) Fax: 403-206-7010 From news at andyjeffries.co.uk Fri Nov 12 21:52:33 2004 From: news at andyjeffries.co.uk (Andy Jeffries) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:52:33 +0000 Subject: Proposing inclusion of a new package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andy Jeffries wrote: >>> Anyway, if someone fancies either going ahead and including it in the >>> distro or pointing me to the procedure for getting it included (or >>> telling me to get lost for whatever reason), feel free to let me know. >> >> This is probably a good place to start: >> >> > > Thanks for the pointer (and I'll try again soon) Google cache is my friend! :-) OK, I've printed out about 60+ pages on how to submit a package. I'll do a lot of reading on Sunday, ensure the package is OK then submit all the appropriate docs. Thanks for the pointer! Cheers, Andy From perbj at stanford.edu Sat Nov 13 01:54:25 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:54:25 -0800 Subject: Fedora.us wiki down Message-ID: <1100310865.3488.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, While it was mentioned a bit down in an earlier thread I guess that might have been overlooked (at least since I haven't seen any further mention of it and it's still down...): The fedora.us wiki is unavailable at the moment, looks like a MySQL problem as far as I can tell: --- lib/WikiDB/backend/PearDB.php:32: Fatal[256]: Can't connect to database: wikidb_backend_mysql: fatal database error * DB Error: connect failed * ( [nativecode=Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (2)] ** mysql://fedorawikiuser:XXXXXXXX at localhost/fedorawiki) --- Since I didn't see an admin address on fedora.us I figured this e-mail might find its target audience (i.e. Warren or someone else with admin power at fedora.us) through this list... Best regards, Per Bjornsson From jmizell at whileloop.com Sat Nov 13 03:18:39 2004 From: jmizell at whileloop.com (John Mizell) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:18:39 -0600 Subject: udev and palm pilot In-Reply-To: <1100310865.3488.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100310865.3488.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100315919.4055.6.camel@supernova> In the docs at http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/udev/ Palm Pilot If you have udev >= 032-5, execute the command: ln -s ttyUSB1 /etc/udev/devices/pilot In my case I needed ttyUSB0 so I did: ln -s ttyUSB0 /etc/udev/devices/pilot syncing with pilot does not work as a normal user for me and only as root. If I put a file in /etc/udev/permissions.d/new.permissions and change pilot to permissions of 0666. Should it override 50-udev.permissions? -- John Mizell jmizell at whileloop.com Whileloop.com Whileloop LLC From jmizell at whileloop.com Sat Nov 13 03:35:58 2004 From: jmizell at whileloop.com (John Mizell) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:35:58 -0600 Subject: udev and palm pilot In-Reply-To: <1100315919.4055.6.camel@supernova> References: <1100310865.3488.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100315919.4055.6.camel@supernova> Message-ID: <1100316958.3865.2.camel@supernova> Well I got the sync to work as advertised in the documentation. I was trying to use /dev/ttyUSB0 directly instead of /dev/pilot. But I would still like to know if I do put a /etc/udev/permissions.d/new.permissions will it use that file over the 0-udev.permissions? On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 21:18 -0600, John Mizell wrote: > In the docs at http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/udev/ > Palm Pilot > If you have udev >= 032-5, execute the command: > > > ln -s ttyUSB1 /etc/udev/devices/pilot > > In my case I needed ttyUSB0 so I did: > ln -s ttyUSB0 /etc/udev/devices/pilot > > syncing with pilot does not work as a normal user for me and only as root. If I put a file in > /etc/udev/permissions.d/new.permissions and change pilot to permissions of > 0666. Should it override 50-udev.permissions? > -- > John Mizell > jmizell at whileloop.com > Whileloop.com > Whileloop LLC > From robilad at kaffe.org Sat Nov 13 02:56:48 2004 From: robilad at kaffe.org (Dalibor Topic) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:56:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100202169.3865.5.camel@kyrre> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> <1100207596.6771.14.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Avi Alkalay gmail.com> writes: > > Yeah, move on. I'm sorry for sounding so harsh, Avi. >From your first post it wasn't clear to me whether you, as a member of IBM's Linux impact team have some inside information on IBM's or Sun's plans or whether your statements are speculative. all the best, dalibor topic From christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com Sat Nov 13 03:09:50 2004 From: christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com (Christopher Hotchkiss) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:09:50 -0500 Subject: Stateless Linux Question Message-ID: <7f48492a041112190916bed647@mail.gmail.com> Hey guys, I have been setting up a stateless linux install recently, and I have a question regarding the caching clients. On step six of the install guide (http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/stateless/sn-caching-clients.html), it states "Locate a bootstrap CD for the client OS you wish to install and mount it at /mnt/cdrom." Would this be a Fedora Core 3 CD1? Or is there another cd I should be using? Is it possible to generate a caching install from a snapshot I've made in the previous steps? -- Christopher Hotchkiss (813)960-9273 http://www.post227.org From christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com Sat Nov 13 03:21:12 2004 From: christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com (Christopher Hotchkiss) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:21:12 -0500 Subject: Problem with compiling packages In-Reply-To: <1100290837l.3451l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <77e74f3e04111208072fe6cc98@mail.gmail.com> <1100276084.27493.17.camel@remedyz.boston.redhat.com> <1100284827.4132.28.camel@kyrre> <1100290837l.3451l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <7f48492a041112192155663848@mail.gmail.com> I wouldn't think so much its the bloat but the continuous CPU load. Another good stress test for those of us who cannot compile OO is to run any of the distributed computing clients (SETI, Folding at HOME, etc). -- Christopher Hotchkiss (813)960-9273 http://www.post227.org From markmc at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 09:11:25 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:11:25 +0000 Subject: Stateless Linux Question In-Reply-To: <7f48492a041112190916bed647@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f48492a041112190916bed647@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100337085.14443.13.camel@blaa> Hi, On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 22:09 -0500, Christopher Hotchkiss wrote: > Hey guys, > I have been setting up a stateless linux install recently, and I have > a question regarding the caching clients. On step six of the install > guide (http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/stateless/sn-caching-clients.html), > it states "Locate a bootstrap CD for the client OS you wish to install > and mount it at /mnt/cdrom." Well done for getting that far :-) > Would this be a Fedora Core 3 CD1? Or is there another cd I should be > using? This one I think: http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/3/i386/os/images/boot.iso > Is it possible to generate a caching install from a snapshot I've made > in the previous steps? Well, that's effectively what you're doing - but, right now, the way it works is that we do a minimal install in order to be able to run replication client which pulls across your snapshot. In future this would probably need to be part of the installer itself in some form - it was just easier to prototype it this way. Thanks, Mark. From alexl at users.sourceforge.net Sat Nov 13 10:48:35 2004 From: alexl at users.sourceforge.net (Alex Lancaster) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:48:35 -0800 Subject: Status of fedora.us "Extras" and apt? Message-ID: I was wondering if anybody knows the status of the fedora.us repo. The base os and updates seems to be up at: http://download.fedora.us/fedora/fedora/3/i386/ but there are no extras package, not even a version of apt built to be able to apt-get the base os and update packages from the repository. Nary a mention on the fedora.us website or wiki, I don't even know there is a plan to build extras packages via fedora.us, perhaps migration to the new Redhat build system for extras that's been suggested is imminent, is in the works. I know it's only been 4 or 5 days since fc3 release, but I'm worried that no information on fedora.us about when and if a rebuild is planned might lead users to conclude that it has been abandoned, especially given that other 3rd party repos: freshrpms, dag etc., and even livna (which depends of fedora.us) are up and running. Anyway, I filed a couple of bugs on bugzilla.fedora.us: http://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=2273 (for apt rebuild) http://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=2274 (for website update) Cheers, Alex From avibrazil at gmail.com Sat Nov 13 11:04:29 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:04:29 -0300 Subject: Java for FC3 (was: Re: Java status for FC4?) In-Reply-To: References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <77e74f3e0411111209513f7735@mail.gmail.com> <1100207596.6771.14.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Don't worry..... No problem... And what I know from IBM internals, I can't really say in an open discussion..... Anyway, I don't know much.... Regards, Avi On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:56:48 +0000 (UTC), Dalibor Topic wrote: > Avi Alkalay gmail.com> writes: > > > > > Yeah, move on. > > I'm sorry for sounding so harsh, Avi. > > >From your first post it wasn't clear to me whether you, as a member of IBM's > Linux impact team have some inside information on IBM's or Sun's plans or > whether your statements are speculative. > > all the best, > > > dalibor topic > From rc040203 at freenet.de Sat Nov 13 11:13:04 2004 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:13:04 +0100 Subject: Status of fedora.us "Extras" and apt? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100344384.27584.62.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 02:48 -0800, Alex Lancaster wrote: > I was wondering if anybody knows the status of the fedora.us repo. > The base os and updates seems to be up at: > > http://download.fedora.us/fedora/fedora/3/i386/ > > but there are no extras package, not even a version of apt built to be > able to apt-get the base os and update packages from the repository. For now, just use the versions from FE2. Ralf From mpeters at mac.com Sat Nov 13 14:12:32 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:12:32 +0000 Subject: Status of fedora.us "Extras" and apt? In-Reply-To: (from alexl@users.sourceforge.net on Sat Nov 13 02:48:35 2004) References: Message-ID: <1100355152l.22645l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/13/2004 02:48:35 AM, Alex Lancaster wrote: > I was wondering if anybody knows the status of the fedora.us repo. > The base os and updates seems to be up at: > > http://download.fedora.us/fedora/fedora/3/i386/ > > but there are no extras package So far - for the things I _need_ from Fedora Extras - I've been pretty succesful at just rebuilding the src.rpm in fc3 and installing the result of that. One package I had to up the version to current (fc2 version wouldn't build w/ gcc34) but other than that - rpmbuild --rebuild package.src.rpm has pretty much just worked. I suspect for most of the packages, they can install without rebuilding w/o any dependency issues. From christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com Sat Nov 13 15:12:45 2004 From: christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com (Christopher Hotchkiss) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:12:45 -0500 Subject: Stateless Linux Question In-Reply-To: <1100337085.14443.13.camel@blaa> References: <7f48492a041112190916bed647@mail.gmail.com> <1100337085.14443.13.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <7f48492a041113071254f02858@mail.gmail.com> Okay thank you for that info. > Well done for getting that far :-) Well the raid array I was doing it on last night, had a circuit breaker trip. Only half the array lost power. The other half continued to run a yum update I had scheduled. Pretty much hosing the box. I will keep your advice in mind though as I try to redo all that work. But now that I am redoing it let me ask this question. On step 2, part 5, section g, line 6. Could you please clarify what you mean by "group-name"? -- Christopher Hotchkiss (813)960-9273 http://www.post227.org From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sat Nov 13 15:53:41 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:53:41 +0100 Subject: Status of fedora.us "Extras" and apt? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100361220.2810.6.camel@kyrre> No info about how to configure yum is aviable either... l?r, 13.11.2004 kl. 11.48 skrev Alex Lancaster: > I was wondering if anybody knows the status of the fedora.us repo. > The base os and updates seems to be up at: > > http://download.fedora.us/fedora/fedora/3/i386/ > > but there are no extras package, not even a version of apt built to be > able to apt-get the base os and update packages from the repository. > Nary a mention on the fedora.us website or wiki, I don't even know > there is a plan to build extras packages via fedora.us, perhaps > migration to the new Redhat build system for extras that's been > suggested is imminent, is in the works. > > I know it's only been 4 or 5 days since fc3 release, but I'm worried > that no information on fedora.us about when and if a rebuild is > planned might lead users to conclude that it has been abandoned, > especially given that other 3rd party repos: freshrpms, dag etc., and > even livna (which depends of fedora.us) are up and running. > > Anyway, I filed a couple of bugs on bugzilla.fedora.us: > > http://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=2273 (for apt rebuild) > > http://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=2274 (for website update) > > Cheers, > Alex From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sat Nov 13 15:55:46 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:55:46 +0100 Subject: Fedora power management In-Reply-To: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB605@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB605@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1100361345.2810.8.camel@kyrre> > #cardctl eject Is it just me being *evil* and just pulling out my wlan card, letting hotplug/netplugd handle the rest? From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sat Nov 13 16:01:55 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:01:55 +0100 Subject: Multicast DNS & the ".local" domain In-Reply-To: References: <1100200131.3865.1.camel@kyrre> <1100274895.4132.4.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100361715.2810.14.camel@kyrre> fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 20.56 skrev Felipe Alfaro Solana: > On Nov 12, 2004, at 16:54, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 00.44 skrev Felipe Alfaro Solana: > >> On Nov 11, 2004, at 20:09, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > >> > >>> tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 18.54 skrev Felipe Alfaro Solana: > >>>> Short question: Does Fedora Core 3 support multicast DNS name > >>>> resolution for the ".local" domain? > >>>> > >>>> Long: I can resolv my Linux hostname from my Mac OS X computer, but > >>>> my > >>>> Linux box can't resolve my Mac OS X hostname. > >>>> > >>>> Looking at the network traffic, Mac OS X name queries for the > >>>> ".local" > >>>> domain do send mDNS traffic to the multicast mDNS address. Linux > >>>> queries for the ".local" domain go against my ISP DNS server. > >>> > >>> So that is what "mDNS" stands for. What is it? Where can i find > >>> documentation? Simple, easy-to-understand explanations? Does it mean > >>> that i can name my computer "kyrre.local" and it will automatically > >>> be > >>> discovered and resolved on the LAN? > >> > >> mDNS is a piece of Apple?s Rendezvous technology. There others are > >> automatic link-local IPv4 address allocation and service discovery. > >> Fedora Core 3 already has support for the multicast DNS responder part > >> of Rendezvous, in form of the ?howl?package (see > >> http://www.porchdogsoft.com/products/howl). > >> > >> Also, take a look at http://developer.apple.com/macosx/rendezvous > >> > >> The problem I'm having is that Linux mDNSResponder service works > >> pretty > >> well: when a Mac OS X computer asks mDNSResponder, it does. What I'm > >> unable to achieve is just the opposite: make glibc's resolver use > >> multicast DNS to resolve queries for the ".local" domain. It seems, > >> however, that both SUSE and Gentoo have patches to make this work, and > >> I wanted to know why Fedora does not. > > > > So in short - those who connect a mac to a network containing a FC3 > > print-server but no DNS, does now not have to fiddle with hosts? It > > should JustWork(tm)? > > Yes, but the mDNSResponder daemon must be running, and it's recommended > that you use a ".local" domain. > > You don't need to publish any IPP (the Internet Printing Protocol) into > /etc/howl/mDNSResponder.conf, since both Fedora and Mac OS X use CUPS. > CUPS does allow for on-the-fly printer publishing, that is, whenever > Fedora bring CUPS up, it will advertise the printers it has configured, > and the Mac OS X will use that information to build a list of available > printers. > I know, but if the mac (or linux box) are unable to lookup the DNS name of the CUPS server, it fails. Or worse - if the CUPS server has hostname "localhost"... Ever tried that? It pretty much makes cups on the client go into an infinite loop, eating disk space on its way... Had some other funny experiences with CUPS and mac as well - it seems like the mac's cups implementation tries to "double-run" some driver - resulting in 1 word of text becomes 15 pages of rubbish... And all the printers are named "Created by redhat-config-printer" (somebody forgot to change that string?) :P > If you don't want CUPS to broadcast information, you can statically > publish an IPP record into Howl so the printer is also available > automatically via Rendezvous. From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sat Nov 13 16:04:38 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:04:38 +0100 Subject: Stateless Linux In-Reply-To: <80d7e409041112120726c1f813@mail.gmail.com> References: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> <1100196930.2683.10.camel@kyrre> <1100197442.4568.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100287803.4132.45.camel@kyrre> <80d7e409041112120726c1f813@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100361877.2810.16.camel@kyrre> fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 21.07 skrev Stephen J. Smoogen: > On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:30:03 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > wrote: > > tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 19.24 skrev Dan Young: > > > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 19:15 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > > Just wondering - is there any "out of the box" ltsp rpm's to be found > > > > (for fc3)? I have some thin clients and a thin client server, and really > > > > want to run it off LTSP > > > > > > k12ltsp.org > > > > > > Current version is on FC2 but I think Eric Harrison is looking to fix > > > that Real Soon Now. > > > > > > > I have a (otherwise) all-fc2 (soon 3) net (at a school). How easily > > would it be to put a k12LTSP server in the middle of this? > > > > I think that the K12LTSP people are working on the RPMS needed for > this. 4.2.0 or something is the release number for it. Nice. But by far, the easiest would be to drop a repo into /etc/yum.repo.d and "yum install LTSP" :) From christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com Sat Nov 13 16:49:52 2004 From: christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com (Christopher Hotchkiss) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:49:52 -0500 Subject: Stateless Linux Question In-Reply-To: <7f48492a041113071254f02858@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f48492a041112190916bed647@mail.gmail.com> <1100337085.14443.13.camel@blaa> <7f48492a041113071254f02858@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f48492a041113084916535672@mail.gmail.com> FYI also there is a bug in the install. The stateless yum repository doesn't have the headers necessary to do a yum install. You can still do it but you must wget the rpms, and do a manual install. -- Christopher Hotchkiss (813)960-9273 http://www.post227.org From markmc at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 17:13:07 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:13:07 +0000 Subject: Stateless Linux Question In-Reply-To: <7f48492a041113071254f02858@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f48492a041112190916bed647@mail.gmail.com> <1100337085.14443.13.camel@blaa> <7f48492a041113071254f02858@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100365988.20831.6.camel@blaa> Hi, On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 10:12 -0500, Christopher Hotchkiss wrote: > But now that I am redoing it let me ask this question. On step 2, part > 5, section g, line 6. Could you please clarify what you mean by > "group-name"? Hmm, its not really at all specific to Stateless Linux, so that might be a bit confusing. Its just there to help people get everything set up. The "group" in this case is just your normal user group, but in LDAP to be accessed using NSS. So, I think there might be a step missing: Edit /etc/nsswitch.conf, change passwd, shadow, group lines to be 'files ldap' But maybe I'm not seeing something. So, the last line in this part: ldapadd -x -W -D"cn=Manager,dc=stateless-test, dc=example, dc=com" < References: <7f48492a041112190916bed647@mail.gmail.com> <1100337085.14443.13.camel@blaa> <7f48492a041113071254f02858@mail.gmail.com> <7f48492a041113084916535672@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100366530.20831.9.camel@blaa> Hi, On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 11:49 -0500, Christopher Hotchkiss wrote: > FYI also there is a bug in the install. The stateless yum repository > doesn't have the headers necessary to do a yum install. You can still > do it but you must wget the rpms, and do a manual install. Just in case we manage to drop these issues, please take note of them all and send us a summary at the end. That would be very helpful indeed. Thanks much, Mark. From otaylor at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 17:18:39 2004 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:18:39 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge Message-ID: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Problem description =================== Currently, the time to boot the Linux desktop from the point where the power switch is turned on, to the point where the user can start doing work is roughly two minutes. During that time, there are basically three resources being used: the hard disk, the CPU, and the natural latency of external systems - the time it takes a monitor to respond to a DDC probe, the time it takes for the system to get an IP via DCHP, and so forth. Ideally, system boot would involve a 3-4 second sequential read of around 100 megabytes of data from the hard disk, CPU utilization would be parallelized with that, and all queries on external systems would be asynchronous ... startup continues and once the external system responds, the system state is updated. Plausibly the user could start work under 10 seconds on this ideal system. The challenge is to create a single poster showing graphically what is going on during the boot, what is the utilization of resources, how the current boot differs from the ideal world of 100% disk and CPU utilization, and thus, where are the opportunities for optimization. Graphical Ideas =============== Presumably, the main display would be a timeline with wall clock time on the horizontal (or vertical) axis. Then, you'd have a tree with lines representing the processes running at a particular time. The processes lines would have attributes indicating state - perhaps red when waiting for disk, green when running, dotted when sleeping or blocking on IO. Extra lines might be added to the graph to indicate dependencies between processes. If a process calls waitpid() on another process, a dotted line could be added connecting the end of the other process back to the first process. Similar lines could be added when a write from one process causes another process that was waiting in a read() or select() to wake up. While many thousands of processes are run during system boot, this doesn't mean the graph has to have vertical space for all of them ... vertical space is basically determined by the number of processes that are running at once. Parallel to the display of processes would be a display of overall CPU and disk utilization. CPU utilization on a single processor system is pretty straightforward... either the CPU is running at a point in time or it isn't. Considerations like memory bandwidth, processor stalls, and so forth matter when optimizing particular algorithms but an initial guess (that the poster would confirm or deny) is that CPU is not a significant bottleneck for system start. Disk utilization is more complex, because of the huge cost of seeks; while modern drives can easily read 30-40 megabytes/second a seek still takes 5-10ms. Whether or not the drive is active tells little about how well we are doing using it. In addition, there is a significantly long pipeline of requests to the disk, and seeks aren't even completely predictable because the drive may reorder read requests. But a simple display that might be sufficient is graph of instantaneous bandwidth (averaged over a small period of time) being achieved from the disk drive. If processes are red (waiting on the drive) and the bandwidth is low, then there is a problem with too much seeking that needs to be addressed. You'd also want text in the poster; process names are one obvious textual annotation that should be easy to obtain. It might also be interested for processes to be able to provide extra annotations; for the X server to advertise that it is waiting for a DDC probe, and so forth. Implementation thoughts ======================= It should be possible to start with a limited set of easily collected data and already get a useful picture. Useful data collection could be as simple as taking a snapshot of the data that the "top" program displays a few times a second during boot. That already gives you a list of the running processes, their states, and some statistics about global system load. Moving beyond that would probably involve instrumenting the kernel to give notification of process start and termination (possibly providing times(2) style information on termination) to provide visibility for processes that run for too short a time to be picked up by polling. Better kernel reporting of disk utilization might also be needed. It might be possible to employ existing tools like oprofile, however, the level of detail oprofile provides is really overkill... compressing 2 minutes of runtime involving 1000 processes onto a single poster doesn't really allow worrying about what code is getting run by a process at a particular point. Obviously, one challenge of any profiling tool is to avoid affecting the collected data. Since CPU and memory don't seem to be bottlenecks, while disk definitely is a bottleneck, a low impact implementation might be a profiling daemon that started early in the boot process and accumulated information to be queried and analyzed after the boot finishes. While producing a single poster would already be enormously useful, the ability to recreate the poster on any system at any point would be multiply times more so. So, changes to system components that can be gotten into the upstream projects and that can be activated at runtime rather than needing to be conditionally compiled in are best. Motivation ========== I think this project would be a lot of fun to work on; you'd learn a lot about how system boot up works and about performance measurement. And beyond that there is a significant design and visualization element in figuring out how to display the collected data. It would also make a good small-scale academic project. But to provide a little extra motivation beyond that, if people pick this up and come up with interesting results, I'll (personally) pay for up to 3 posters of up to 4' x 6' to be professionally printed and laminated. I'll be flexible about how that works ... if multiple people collaborate on one design, they can get a copy each of that single design. - Owen Taylor -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sat Nov 13 17:29:00 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:29:00 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100366939.3126.15.camel@kyrre> l?r, 13.11.2004 kl. 18.18 skrev Owen Taylor: > Problem description > =================== > > Currently, the time to boot the Linux desktop from the point where the > power switch is turned on, to the point where the user can start doing > work is roughly two minutes. > > During that time, there are basically three resources being used: the > hard disk, the CPU, and the natural latency of external systems - the > time it takes a monitor to respond to a DDC probe, the time it takes > for the system to get an IP via DCHP, and so forth. > > Ideally, system boot would involve a 3-4 second sequential read of > around 100 megabytes of data from the hard disk, CPU utilization would > be parallelized with that, and all queries on external systems would > be asynchronous ... startup continues and once the external system > responds, the system state is updated. Plausibly the user could start > work under 10 seconds on this ideal system. > > The challenge is to create a single poster showing graphically what is > going on during the boot, what is the utilization of resources, how > the current boot differs from the ideal world of 100% disk and CPU > utilization, and thus, where are the opportunities for optimization. > > Graphical Ideas > =============== > > Presumably, the main display would be a timeline with wall clock time > on the horizontal (or vertical) axis. Then, you'd have a tree with > lines representing the processes running at a particular time. > > The processes lines would have attributes indicating state - perhaps > red when waiting for disk, green when running, dotted when sleeping or > blocking on IO. Extra lines might be added to the graph to indicate > dependencies between processes. If a process calls waitpid() on > another process, a dotted line could be added connecting the end of the > other process back to the first process. Similar lines could be added > when a write from one process causes another process that was waiting > in a read() or select() to wake up. > > While many thousands of processes are run during system boot, this > doesn't mean the graph has to have vertical space for all of them > ... vertical space is basically determined by the number of processes > that are running at once. > > Parallel to the display of processes would be a display of overall CPU > and disk utilization. CPU utilization on a single processor system is > pretty straightforward... either the CPU is running at a point in time > or it isn't. Considerations like memory bandwidth, processor stalls, > and so forth matter when optimizing particular algorithms but an > initial guess (that the poster would confirm or deny) is that CPU is > not a significant bottleneck for system start. > > Disk utilization is more complex, because of the huge cost of seeks; > while modern drives can easily read 30-40 megabytes/second a seek > still takes 5-10ms. Whether or not the drive is active tells little > about how well we are doing using it. In addition, there is a > significantly long pipeline of requests to the disk, and seeks aren't > even completely predictable because the drive may reorder read > requests. > > But a simple display that might be sufficient is graph of > instantaneous bandwidth (averaged over a small period of time) being > achieved from the disk drive. If processes are red (waiting on the > drive) and the bandwidth is low, then there is a problem with too much > seeking that needs to be addressed. > > You'd also want text in the poster; process names are one obvious > textual annotation that should be easy to obtain. It might also be > interested for processes to be able to provide extra annotations; for > the X server to advertise that it is waiting for a DDC probe, and so > forth. > > Implementation thoughts > ======================= > > It should be possible to start with a limited set of easily collected > data and already get a useful picture. Useful data collection could be > as simple as taking a snapshot of the data that the "top" program > displays a few times a second during boot. That already gives you a > list of the running processes, their states, and some statistics about > global system load. > > Moving beyond that would probably involve instrumenting the kernel to > give notification of process start and termination (possibly providing > times(2) style information on termination) to provide visibility for > processes that run for too short a time to be picked up by > polling. Better kernel reporting of disk utilization might also be > needed. > > It might be possible to employ existing tools like oprofile, however, > the level of detail oprofile provides is really overkill... > compressing 2 minutes of runtime involving 1000 processes onto > a single poster doesn't really allow worrying about what code > is getting run by a process at a particular point. > > Obviously, one challenge of any profiling tool is to avoid affecting > the collected data. Since CPU and memory don't seem to be bottlenecks, > while disk definitely is a bottleneck, a low impact implementation > might be a profiling daemon that started early in the boot process and > accumulated information to be queried and analyzed after the boot > finishes. > > While producing a single poster would already be enormously useful, > the ability to recreate the poster on any system at any point would be > multiply times more so. So, changes to system components that can be > gotten into the upstream projects and that can be activated at runtime > rather than needing to be conditionally compiled in are best. > > Motivation > ========== > > I think this project would be a lot of fun to work on; you'd learn a > lot about how system boot up works and about performance measurement. > And beyond that there is a significant design and visualization > element in figuring out how to display the collected data. It would > also make a good small-scale academic project. > > But to provide a little extra motivation beyond that, if people pick > this up and come up with interesting results, I'll (personally) pay > for up to 3 posters of up to 4' x 6' to be professionally printed and > laminated. I'll be flexible about how that works ... if multiple > people collaborate on one design, they can get a copy each of that > single design. > > - Owen Taylor > > ______________________________________________________________________ > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list Great to see that things are finally moving in reducing boot time! Good initiative :) Kyrre From arjanv at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 17:35:19 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:35:19 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 12:18 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > Ideally, system boot would involve a 3-4 second sequential read of > around 100 megabytes of data from the hard disk, make that 7 seconds.. Note: I did this experiment about a year ago, during boot first read everything into cache and then do the rest of boot basically without disk IO (there are some writes but that's async). The total time to boot did not decrease ...... > CPU utilization would > be parallelized with that, and all queries on external systems would > be asynchronous ... startup continues and once the external system > responds, the system state is updated. Plausibly the user could start > work under 10 seconds on this ideal system. given the 7 second disk read time... 10 seconds is a bit unrealistic. One of the critical paths will be getting an IP address and mounting the /home dir over nfs... ethernet negotiation can easily be 10 seconds already with gige, and DHCP is depending on that to complete before it can get a lease. One of the things we should investigate is just reduce the shere number of different files that get opened.... its about 11000 iirc right now. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From arjanv at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 17:36:48 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:36:48 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 12:18 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > Moving beyond that would probably involve instrumenting the kernel to > give notification of process start and termination (possibly providing > times(2) style information on termination) to provide visibility for > processes that run for too short a time to be picked up by > polling. Better kernel reporting of disk utilization might also be > needed. fwiw the kernel rpms have a patch that print all the files that get opened and the programs that get execed; the patch isn't applied by default but it's not hard to change that for running experiments... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com Sat Nov 13 17:49:32 2004 From: christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com (Christopher Hotchkiss) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:49:32 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> IBM did some work regarding this recently. http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-boot.html?ca=dgr-lnxw11-obg-BootFast The biggest set of problems is figuring out what can be parallelized, and what needs to be sequential. Personally I think that starting up an xserver is not the best way to ensure a speedy boot process. We do have bootsplash availible. You can also look at the work that gentoo has done in this area http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=4 . Their initscripts allow for dependencies which allows for an easily maintainable parallelized boot process. Unfortunately their runlevels do not conform to either LSB or POSIX, I forget which one, but they do work quickly. -- Christopher Hotchkiss (813)960-9273 http://www.post227.org From alan at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 17:53:37 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:53:37 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041113175337.GA23348@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sat, Nov 13, 2004 at 12:18:39PM -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > You'd also want text in the poster; process names are one obvious > textual annotation that should be easy to obtain. It might also be > interested for processes to be able to provide extra annotations; for Why not reuse the X11 visualiser for bandwidth. The one that shows all the toolkit caused stalls. It'll do the same job for run versus disk wait From mrsam at courier-mta.com Sat Nov 13 17:54:26 2004 From: mrsam at courier-mta.com (Sam Varshavchik) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:54:26 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: Arjan van de Ven writes: > On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 12:18 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > >> CPU utilization would >> be parallelized with that, and all queries on external systems would >> be asynchronous ... startup continues and once the external system >> responds, the system state is updated. Plausibly the user could start >> work under 10 seconds on this ideal system. > > given the 7 second disk read time... 10 seconds is a bit unrealistic. > One of the critical paths will be getting an IP address and mounting the > /home dir over nfs... ethernet negotiation can easily be 10 seconds > already with gige, and DHCP is depending on that to complete before it > can get a lease. Add 30 seconds if you're booting off aic79xx.o Why does loading that gawd-awful microcode take so long? I don't notice ANY delay when booting XP on the same box. It shouldn't take more than one or two seconds to initialize the SCSI card. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From db at zigo.dhs.org Sat Nov 13 18:06:43 2004 From: db at zigo.dhs.org (Dennis Bjorklund) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:06:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: the media check problem Message-ID: I've been doing some tests to see what works and what does not in the context of the media check problem. A lot of us have to turn of dma in order for the media check to work. This is my current thoughts that I would love to get some comments about from someone who knows the kernel. 1) It's the read ahead that causes the problem. If one use hdparm and set the read ahead to 0 on the device, then I have no problem to verify a cd using dd. 2) When I mount the cd then I can check the md5sum of every file and it is correct no matter what read ahead is set to. When a filesystem is mounted we know the exact size of the track. Does the filesystem layer pass on that information to the block device so it knows it should not read past the end (even when doing read ahead)? If it doesn't, then why doesn't it read past the end when the fs is mounted? 3) Given that it does work as I guess in point 2, then shouldn't the read ahead on a cdrom device be 0 until we know the max size to prevent it from reading past the end? Before we know the end then it's dangerous to read ahead and we should just read what is asked for. 4) When DMA is turned off then we read block by block and when we hit and error the previous blocks are already read in and valid. With DMA it looks like we tell the drive to read lots of blocks, and then when it breaks we signal back an error directly and the valid blocks in the beginning of the DMA request are also lost. 5) Does the read ahead buy us much extra speed when installing? Could it be set to 0 by anaconda for everyone in order to help those of us where it is a problem. 6) Is read ahead the problem for everyone or is it just something that makes it work on my hardware. My next step should be to read the kernel source to verify the above. So far it's just guesses based on my intuition of how this is implemented. I want to present it here first and see what people have to say about it before I spend days (or weeks) trying to understand the block and ide code in the kernel. Maybe someone like Alan Cox (but not limited to him!) will look at this and say it's stupid, and then I don't need to read the code :-) -- /Dennis Bj?rklund From alan at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 18:29:43 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:29:43 -0500 Subject: the media check problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041113182943.GA3838@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sat, Nov 13, 2004 at 07:06:43PM +0100, Dennis Bjorklund wrote: > 1) It's the read ahead that causes the problem. If one use > hdparm and set the read ahead to 0 on the device, then I have > no problem to verify a cd using dd. Correct > Maybe someone like Alan Cox (but not limited to him!) will look at this > and say it's stupid, and then I don't need to read the code :-) The "end" of a CD-R is undefined for about 150K. ide-scsi correctly retries errors at the disk end and reduces the disk size based on the error position. ide-cd doesn't. It's waiting someone who knows enough about that area of the block layer to fix it Alan From dan_young at parkrose.k12.or.us Sat Nov 13 19:28:15 2004 From: dan_young at parkrose.k12.or.us (Dan Young) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:28:15 -0800 Subject: Stateless Linux In-Reply-To: <1100361877.2810.16.camel@kyrre> References: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> <1100196930.2683.10.camel@kyrre> <1100197442.4568.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100287803.4132.45.camel@kyrre> <80d7e409041112120726c1f813@mail.gmail.com> <1100361877.2810.16.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100374095.5150.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 17:04 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 21.07 skrev Stephen J. Smoogen: > > I think that the K12LTSP people are working on the RPMS needed for > > this. 4.2.0 or something is the release number for it. > > Nice. But by far, the easiest would be to drop a repo into > /etc/yum.repo.d and "yum install LTSP" :) The announcement regarding 4.2.0's alpha status: https://listman.redhat.com/archives/k12osn/2004-November/msg00486.html /etc/yum.repos.d/k12ltsp.repo: [k12ltsp] name=K12LTSP baseurl=http://k12linux.mesd.k12.or.us/yum/fc3/ enabled=1 gpgcheck=1 # rpm --import http://k12linux.mesd.k12.or.us/eharrison.asc # yum install k12ltsp-core -- Dan Young Parkrose School District From balay at fastmail.fm Sat Nov 13 19:32:11 2004 From: balay at fastmail.fm (Satish Balay) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:32:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: the media check problem In-Reply-To: <20041113182943.GA3838@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041113182943.GA3838@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > On Sat, Nov 13, 2004 at 07:06:43PM +0100, Dennis Bjorklund wrote: > > 1) It's the read ahead that causes the problem. If one use > > hdparm and set the read ahead to 0 on the device, then I have > > no problem to verify a cd using dd. > > Correct > > > Maybe someone like Alan Cox (but not limited to him!) will look at this > > and say it's stupid, and then I don't need to read the code :-) > > The "end" of a CD-R is undefined for about 150K. ide-scsi correctly > retries errors at the disk end and reduces the disk size based on the > error position. ide-cd doesn't. It's waiting someone who knows enough about > that area of the block layer to fix it Alan could you clarify the following? - (if ide=dma was used for install) after install - removing this option from grub will affect media-check only - and all other CD operations will work fine? Thanks, Satish From otaylor at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 19:31:46 2004 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:31:46 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041113175337.GA23348@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041113175337.GA23348@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100374306.8404.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 12:53 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Sat, Nov 13, 2004 at 12:18:39PM -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > > You'd also want text in the poster; process names are one obvious > > textual annotation that should be easy to obtain. It might also be > > interested for processes to be able to provide extra annotations; for > > Why not reuse the X11 visualiser for bandwidth. The one that shows all the > toolkit caused stalls. It'll do the same job for run versus disk wait I'm guessing you mean the xplot/netplot displays from Jim Gettys and Keith Packard's talk about X Window System performance - (http://keithp.com/~keithp/talks/usenix2003/). It's certainly related to the kind of thing I'm talking about here, though I'm not sure its quite directly applicable... it applies more to displaying how well disk read-ahead is working for a particular application, then to viewing the dependency graph for a set of processes. I'd agree it's a relevant reference point, Owen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From otaylor at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 19:41:16 2004 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:41:16 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100374877.8404.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 12:49 -0500, Christopher Hotchkiss wrote: > IBM did some work regarding this recently. > http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-boot.html?ca=dgr-lnxw11-obg-BootFast > The biggest set of problems is figuring out what can be parallelized, > and what needs to be sequential. Personally I think that starting up > an xserver is not the best way to ensure a speedy boot process. We do > have bootsplash availible. > > You can also look at the work that gentoo has done in this area > http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=4 . > > Their initscripts allow for dependencies which allows for an easily > maintainable parallelized boot process. Unfortunately their runlevels > do not conform to either LSB or POSIX, I forget which one, but they do > work quickly. My point is basically to move away from "is rhgb a bottleneck", "would parallelization help?" speculation, and have a single graphical display that can immediately provide those answers. To me, the BootFast article really is a bit of a disappointment. It ends with the cop-out paragraph: (*) The effectiveness of this technique depends on the number of services that need to be run as well as the time it takes for each service to run. The degree of parallelization possible is controlled largely by the dependencies between services. It may be that using this technique makes little improvement for some systems, while for others, it could have a dramatic impact on boot speed. This can be explained by the fact that each system has a different set of services enabled, and each of these services takes differing amounts of time to run. Once again, to use this technique, you need to establish the dependencies between the services you use for your particular system. And doesn't provide any numbers about what speedups the author achieved. Did the author not measure anything? Did the author not get any speedup on his system? Who knows. Having before and after graphs would let you not only see whether parallelization helped, but see why it helped, or why it didn't help, and what would need to be fixed to make it help. Thanks for the pointers, Owen (*) Admittedly the article is really more of a tutorial than a scientific paper. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From alan at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 19:59:53 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:59:53 -0500 Subject: the media check problem In-Reply-To: References: <20041113182943.GA3838@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041113195953.GA28001@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sat, Nov 13, 2004 at 01:32:11PM -0600, Satish Balay wrote: > Alan could you clarify the following? > > - (if ide=dma was used for install) after install - removing this > option from grub will affect media-check only - and all other > CD operations will work fine? Yep From otaylor at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 19:56:43 2004 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:56:43 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1100375803.8404.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 18:35 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 12:18 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > > Ideally, system boot would involve a 3-4 second sequential read of > > around 100 megabytes of data from the hard disk, > > make that 7 seconds.. > Note: I did this experiment about a year ago, during boot first read > everything into cache and then do the rest of boot basically without > disk IO (there are some writes but that's async). > The total time to boot did not decrease ...... That experiment was one of the things that convinced me that getting a good visualization of the critical path is crucial to actually speeding up the boot process. > > CPU utilization would > > be parallelized with that, and all queries on external systems would > > be asynchronous ... startup continues and once the external system > > responds, the system state is updated. Plausibly the user could start > > work under 10 seconds on this ideal system. > > given the 7 second disk read time... 10 seconds is a bit unrealistic. > One of the critical paths will be getting an IP address and mounting the > /home dir over nfs... ethernet negotiation can easily be 10 seconds > already with gige, and DHCP is depending on that to complete before it > can get a lease. I'd agree 10 seconds isn't a realistic target; my point was more that if we have only 7 seconds of disk access, and, say, 10 seconds of computation to do, and maybe 15 seconds too negotiate gige, get a dhcp lease, and mount your homedir (if relevant), then the time between 15 seconds and 2 minutes needs to be investigated in terms of dependencies. > One of the things we should investigate is just reduce the shere number > of different files that get opened.... its about 11000 iirc right now. If we're actually spending all our time waiting on a DHCP lease, or for probing serial mice to timeout, then 11000 opens don't matter a whole lot. Not that eliminating the opens isn't a good idea... Regards, Owen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sat Nov 13 20:16:43 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 21:16:43 +0100 Subject: Stateless Linux In-Reply-To: <1100374095.5150.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <41902800.9030705@jimmy.harvard.edu> <1100196930.2683.10.camel@kyrre> <1100197442.4568.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100287803.4132.45.camel@kyrre> <80d7e409041112120726c1f813@mail.gmail.com> <1100361877.2810.16.camel@kyrre> <1100374095.5150.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100377003.3126.18.camel@kyrre> l?r, 13.11.2004 kl. 20.28 skrev Dan Young: > On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 17:04 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 21.07 skrev Stephen J. Smoogen: > > > I think that the K12LTSP people are working on the RPMS needed for > > > this. 4.2.0 or something is the release number for it. > > > > Nice. But by far, the easiest would be to drop a repo into > > /etc/yum.repo.d and "yum install LTSP" :) > > > The announcement regarding 4.2.0's alpha status: > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/k12osn/2004-November/msg00486.html > > /etc/yum.repos.d/k12ltsp.repo: > [k12ltsp] > name=K12LTSP > baseurl=http://k12linux.mesd.k12.or.us/yum/fc3/ > enabled=1 > gpgcheck=1 > > # rpm --import http://k12linux.mesd.k12.or.us/eharrison.asc > # yum install k12ltsp-core > Thanks, that post was very interesting :) But why is it installing all kinds of stuff? All i (and probably a lot of others) want is the thin-client functionality set up and ready to go. If i want scribus as well, i would do "yum install scribus". From arjanv at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 23:42:50 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 00:42:50 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100374877.8404.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> <1100374877.8404.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100389369.5074.15.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 14:41 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > My point is basically to move away from "is rhgb a bottleneck", > "would parallelization help?" speculation, and have a single graphical > display that can immediately provide those answers. if you go parallal, you *have* to do the readahead-early thing, otherwise you just seek your disk to death and end up being slower most likely.... Not that I'd oppose that; resurrecting that shouldn't be hard if people want to play with it. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Sun Nov 14 00:05:36 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 01:05:36 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100390736.3633.26.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 12:18 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > While producing a single poster would already be enormously useful, > the ability to recreate the poster on any system at any point would be > multiply times more so. So, changes to system components that can be > gotten into the upstream projects and that can be activated at runtime > rather than needing to be conditionally compiled in are best. How about going even further and solving the optimization task automatically? Create a system which would (given certain constraints) make small rearrangements in the order of services, relocate files on the disk, etc. It would then keep rebooting, timing and making more changes. Eventually converging to... Windows XP boot times :) Seriously though, I think this project is a great idea. The problem of boot times is especially pesky for laptop users. We're the ones stuck with crappy hard disks and even worse, have to reboot several times a day. The solution here might be a stable suspend-to-disk implementation. But this is not happening (yet), so thumbs up for a 10 second boot! -- Ziga From db at zigo.dhs.org Sun Nov 14 00:23:01 2004 From: db at zigo.dhs.org (Dennis Bjorklund) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 01:23:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: the media check problem In-Reply-To: <20041113182943.GA3838@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > > 1) It's the read ahead that causes the problem. If one use > > hdparm and set the read ahead to 0 on the device, then I have > > no problem to verify a cd using dd. > > Correct So, why not set read ahead to 0 during the install process (or at least during the media check). It's also strange that the media check works for some people. I don't see anything here that depends on the hardware except perhaps hardware that does not support dma at all (blacklisted), or that does not use ide-cd. Maybe it's the combination of slow CPU and fast cd-rom that makes it perform more read ahead and increase the chance of generating an error (yet another guess :-). > The "end" of a CD-R is undefined for about 150K. ide-scsi correctly > retries errors at the disk end and reduces the disk size based on the > error position. ide-cd doesn't. If the layer above can tell ide-cd where the end is then it will never need to seek past that. For an iso fs the size is known and I guessed in the previous mail that this size was passed in to ide-cd when you mount it. A retry to find the real end of course would also solve it. I don't know that much about cdroms so I can't say I know anything about the "end is undefined for 150K" part. I played with different padding sizes, but that didn't alter the end position. The full track I could read back in was of constant size no matter what padding I tried. Well, I feel a lot better now that I know what the problem is. I hate problems where I don't know the technical reason behind it. Thanks. -- /Dennis Bj?rklund From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 14 01:18:26 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:18:26 -0500 Subject: the media check problem In-Reply-To: References: <20041113182943.GA3838@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041114011826.GA12506@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 01:23:01AM +0100, Dennis Bjorklund wrote: > So, why not set read ahead to 0 during the install process (or at least > during the media check). It might be an option if this isnt FC4 fixed but some drives without readahead on slower PC's wouldnt be able to keep up with the data stream and it would take days to run the verify > I don't see anything here that depends on the hardware except perhaps > hardware that does not support dma at all (blacklisted), or that does not > use ide-cd. Maybe it's the combination of slow CPU and fast cd-rom that > makes it perform more read ahead and increase the chance of generating an > error (yet another guess :-). I think some drives are smart about it and others just do what the spec needs and no more > A retry to find the real end of course would also solve it. What scsi does is to say "read 128K", "got 80K and an error", are we at the end. yes, adjust disk size. From keven at mitre.org Sun Nov 14 01:25:18 2004 From: keven at mitre.org (Keven Ring) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:25:18 -0500 Subject: Problems mounting digital camera on FC3 In-Reply-To: <20041112161534.GA13696@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <4194E086.9060207@mitre.org> <20041112161534.GA13696@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4196B3FE.3070102@mitre.org> Alan Cox wrote: >On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 11:10:46AM -0500, Keven Ring wrote: > > >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda: Write Protect is off >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda: assuming drive cache: write through >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: sda:end_request: I/O error, dev sda, >>sector 3999744 >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, >>logical block 3999744 >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev sda, >>sector 3999744 >>Nov 9 14:31:18 localhost kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, >>logical block 3999744 >> >> > >We tried to read the EFI partition data. That kills some devices if they >also report the size wrong (eg the ipod mini). You'll probably find that >with a custom kernel it matters whether you have EFI partitioning on or >off. If so let me know - it needs a USB quirk entry. > > > The stock FC3 kernel has the EFI_PARTITION enabled (not sure why - the help for this item suggests that it is only useful on an IA-64, which my machine is not...). I built a stock 2.6.9 kernel, and disabled the EFI_PARTITION (and nothing else). With this kernel, I can mount the camera and modify the contents of the mounted fs. The camera is not automounted, however... If there are other tests that you would like me to conduct, please let me know. I won't be able to get to them until next weekend, though.. Thanks for the help to date! From mpeters at mac.com Sun Nov 14 08:18:31 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:18:31 +0000 Subject: compat (libgal2 gtkhtml3) packages for Fedora Extras Message-ID: <1100420311l.7458l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> I discovered I needed these two packages to get gnomesword2 to build in FC3. I have since encountered other people with other software that needs the older shared libraries, such as monodoc. Attached are spec files that are based on the FC2 spec files for those packages - it would great if *someone* who is a Fedora Extras would be willing to adopt them for Fedora Extras since FC3 ships versions that are too new for some software. All the build/install dependencies they need are already in FC2 (well, the compat-gtkhtml3 requires the compat- libgal2, but ...) Thanks. It will make life for some people easier if it can be done. -- Cheap Linux CD's http://mpeters.us/linux/ -------------- next part -------------- %define my_build yjl.1 Summary: gtkhtml library compatability version Name: compat-gtkhtml3 Version: 3.0.10 Epoch: 0 Release: %{epoch}.%{my_build} Copyright: LGPL Group: System Environment/Libraries Source: ftp://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/gtkhtml/gtkhtml-%{version}.tar.gz Patch0: gtkhtml-3.0.9-gtype.patch Patch1: gtkhtml-3.0.9-xim.patch BuildRoot: %{_tmppath}/gtkhtml-%{version}-root BuildRequires: libgnomeui-devel >= 2.0 BuildRequires: libgnomeprint22-devel >= 2.2.0 BuildRequires: libgnomeprintui22-devel >= 2.2.1 BuildRequires: libglade2-devel >= 2.0 BuildRequires: compat-libgal2-devel >= 0:1.99.10 BuildRequires: gail-devel BuildRequires: libsoup-devel BuildRequires: libtool, gettext Requires: compat-libgal2 %description GtkHTML is a lightweight HTML rendering/printing/editing engine. It was originally based on KHTMLW, but is now being developed independently of it. This is a compatability version to provide libraries for software that has not yet moved to the newer GtkHTML %package devel Summary: Libraries, includes, etc to develop gtkhtml applications Group: Development/Libraries Requires: %{name} = %{version}-%{release} Requires: libgnomeui-devel >= 2.0 Requires: libgnomeprint22-devel >= 2.2.0 Requires: libgnomeprintui22-devel >= 2.2.1 Requires: libglade2-devel >= 2.0 Requires: compat-libgal2-devel >= 0:1.99.9 %description devel Libraries and include files that can be used to develop GtkHTML applications. This package is needed to build software that has not yet moved to the newer version of GtkHTML. %prep %setup -q -n gtkhtml-%{version} #patch0 -p1 -b .gtype %patch1 -p1 -b .xim %build %configure export tagname=CC make LIBTOOL=/usr/bin/libtool %install rm -rf $RPM_BUILD_ROOT export tagname=CC %makeinstall LIBTOOL=/usr/bin/libtool rm -f $RPM_BUILD_ROOT/%{_libdir}/*.la rm -f $RPM_BUILD_ROOT/%{_libdir}/gtkhtml/*.la %find_lang gtkhtml-3.0 %clean rm -rf $RPM_BUILD_ROOT %post -p /sbin/ldconfig %postun -p /sbin/ldconfig %files -f gtkhtml-3.0.lang %defattr(-, root, root) %doc AUTHORS ChangeLog NEWS README COPYING TODO %{_libdir}/*.so.* %{_libdir}/*.so.* %{_libdir}/gtkhtml/*.so %{_libdir}/bonobo/servers/*.server %{_datadir}/gtkhtml-3.0 %files devel %defattr(-, root, root) %{_includedir}/libgtkhtml-3.0 %{_libdir}/*.so %{_libdir}/*.a %{_libdir}/gtkhtml/*.a %{_libdir}/pkgconfig/*.pc %changelog * Sat Oct 16 2004 Michael A. Peters - changed name to compat-name for fc3 compatability * Wed Mar 10 2004 Jeremy Katz 3.0.10-1 - 3.0.10 * Thu Feb 19 2004 Jeremy Katz - 3.0.9-6 - rebuild * Thu Sep 25 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.9-5 - rebuild * Thu Sep 25 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.9-4 - add patch for XIM (#91481) * Tue Sep 23 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.9-3 - rebuild * Fri Sep 19 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.9-2 - add patch to fix crash on ia64 * Fri Sep 19 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.9-1 - 3.0.9 * Mon Sep 8 2003 Jeremy Katz - add some buildrequires (#103901) * Thu Sep 4 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.8-3 - patch from upstream copy for new libbonobo oddities (#103730) * Mon Aug 4 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.8-1 - 3.0.8 * Thu Jul 10 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.7-1 - 3.0.7 * Wed Jun 11 2003 Jeremy Katz - add some buildrequires (#97181) * Tue Jun 10 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.5-2 - rebuild * Mon Jun 9 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.5-1 - 3.0.5 * Wed Jun 5 2003 Elliot Lee - rebuilt * Thu Jun 5 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.4-3 - rebuild * Mon May 26 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.4-2 - rebuild to fix deps * Sun May 25 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.4-1 - 3.0.4 * Tue May 6 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.3-1 - 3.0.3 * Wed Apr 16 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.2-2 - libtool's revenge * Wed Apr 16 2003 Jeremy Katz 3.0.2-1 - update to 3.0.2 * Sun Apr 6 2003 Jeremy Katz 1.1.9-1 - update to 1.1.9 * Mon Mar 24 2003 Jeremy Katz 1.1.8-6 - rebuild for new gal * Mon Feb 24 2003 Elliot Lee 1.1.8-5 - debuginfo rebuild * Thu Feb 20 2003 Jeremy Katz 1.1.8-4 - gtkhtml capplet doesn't need to be in the menus; it's configurable from within evolution * Mon Feb 10 2003 Akira TAGOH 1.1.8-3 - don't use fontset as default. (#83899) - improve the default font for CJK. * Sat Feb 8 2003 Akira TAGOH 1.1.8-2 - hack to modify po dynamically to add currect XLFD for CJK. - re-enable patches. * Fri Feb 7 2003 Jeremy Katz 1.1.8-1 - 1.1.8 - disable tagoh's patch for now. it's not applied upstream and ends up backing out some translation changes * Fri Feb 7 2003 Akira TAGOH 1.1.7-4 - gtkhtml-1.1.7-fixfont.patch: applied to allow fontset by default. - gtkhtml-po.tar.bz2: to changes default display/print fonts for CJK. perhaps it should be removed when the upstream will releases the next version. - gtkhtml-1.1.7-domain.patch: define GNOME_EXPLICIT_TRANSLATION_DOMAIN as gtkhtml-1.1. * Wed Feb 5 2003 Bill Nottingham 1.1.7-2 - fix some spewage to stdout/stderr * Wed Jan 22 2003 Tim Powers - rebuilt * Fri Dec 13 2002 Jeremy Katz 1.1.7-1 - update to 1.1.7 * Tue Nov 12 2002 Jeremy Katz 1.1.6-1 - update to 1.1.6 * Thu Nov 7 2002 Jeremy Katz 1.1.5-3 - rebuild to really fix Xlib paths now that gnome-libs is fixed * Tue Nov 5 2002 Jeremy Katz 1.1.5-2 - rebuild to fix Xlib paths in .pc files * Fri Nov 1 2002 Jeremy Katz 1.1.5-1 - update to 1.1.5 * Thu Oct 24 2002 Jeremy Katz 1.1.4-1 - remove unwanted files from buildroot - update to 1.1.4 * Thu Sep 26 2002 Jeremy Katz - make sure we get all of the stuff from %%{_datadir}/gtkhtml-1.1 * Wed Sep 25 2002 Jeremy Katz - update to 1.1.2 * Tue Jul 23 2002 Owen Taylor - Fix problem with finding the closest size * Fri Jun 21 2002 Tim Powers - automated rebuild * Wed Jun 19 2002 Jeremy Katz - update to 1.0.4 - remove .la files * Thu May 23 2002 Tim Powers - automated rebuild * Tue May 14 2002 Jeremy Katz - tweak buildrequires for libcapplet0-devel * Tue Mar 19 2002 Jeremy Katz - update to gtkhtml 1.0.2 * Thu Mar 7 2002 Jeremy Katz - remove superflous capplet entry (#59698) * Mon Jan 14 2002 Jeremy Katz - rebuild to get rid of ridiculous libgal18 linkage * Sat Jan 12 2002 Jeremy Katz - update to 1.0.1 * Sun Dec 2 2001 Jeremy Katz - update to 1.0.0 * Sat Nov 17 2001 Jeremy Katz - update to 0.16.1 * Mon Nov 5 2001 Jeremy Katz - updated to 0.16 * Tue Oct 23 2001 Havoc Pennington - 0.15 * Thu Oct 4 2001 Havoc Pennington - 0.14 - remove --without-bonobo - langify * Mon Aug 20 2001 Alexander Larsson 0.9.2-9 - Moved gnome-conf file to the devel package - Fixes SHOULD-FIX bug #49796 * Mon Jul 30 2001 Alexander Larsson - Added dependencies on -devel packages from the gtkhtml-devel package * Fri Jul 20 2001 Alexander Larsson - Add more build dependencies * Thu Jul 17 2001 Bill Nottingham - fix devel package requirements * Sat Jul 7 2001 Tim Powers - changed bad groups - laguified package * Tue Jul 03 2001 Havoc Pennington - fix X11/libraries -> X11/Libraries, #47137 * Wed Jun 13 2001 Bill Nottingham - fix brokenness due to gal damage * Wed Jun 6 2001 Bill Nottingham - adapt included specfile -------------- next part -------------- %define my_build yjl.1 Name: compat-libgal2 Version: 1.99.11 Epoch: 0 Release: %{epoch}.%{my_build} Summary: The GNOME Application Library compatability Group: System Environment/Libraries License: GPL BuildRoot: %{_tmppath}/%{name}-%{version}-root Source0: ftp://ftp.gnome.org/pub/gnome/sources/gal/1.99/gal-%{version}.tar.gz BuildRequires: libxml2-devel BuildRequires: libgnomeprint22-devel >= 2.2.0 BuildRequires: libgnomeprintui22-devel >= 2.2.1 BuildRequires: libglade2-devel >= 2.0 BuildRequires: libgnomecanvas-devel >= 2.2.0.2 BuildRequires: gtk2-devel >= 2.0 BuildRequires: libgnomeui-devel >= 2.0 Requires: libgnomecanvas >= 2.2.0.2-1 %description A collection of GNOME widgets and utility functions. This is a compatability package for software that has not moved to libgal2.2 %package devel Summary: Development files for the GNOME Applications library compatability Group: Development/Libraries Requires: %{name} = %{epoch}:%{version} Requires: libgnomeprint22-devel, libgnomeprintui22-devel, libglade2-devel Requires: libgnomecanvas-devel, libgnomeui-devel %description devel Development files for the GNOME Applications library. This is a compatability package for building software that has not moved to libgal2.2 %prep %setup -q -n gal-%{version} %build %configure export tagname=CC make LIBTOOL=/usr/bin/libtool %install export tagname=CC %makeinstall LIBTOOL=/usr/bin/libtool rm -f $RPM_BUILD_ROOT/%{_libdir}/*.la %find_lang gal-%{version} %clean rm -rf $RPM_BUILD_ROOT %post -p /sbin/ldconfig %postun -p /sbin/ldconfig %files -f gal-%{version}.lang %defattr(-, root, root) %doc AUTHORS COPYING.LIB ChangeLog INSTALL NEWS README %{_datadir}/gal-2.0 %{_libdir}/*.so.* %files devel %defattr(-, root, root) %{_libdir}/*so %{_libdir}/*a %{_libdir}/pkgconfig/*.pc %{_includedir}/* %changelog * Sat Oct 16 2004 Michael A. Peters - changed name and build for FC3 as a compat package - for gnomesword * Wed Mar 10 2004 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.11-1 - update to 1.99.11 * Thu Feb 19 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2:1.99.10-3 - rebuild * Tue Sep 23 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.10-2 - rebuild * Fri Sep 19 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.10-1 - 1.99.10 * Tue Sep 16 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.9-3.1 - fix for multi-level sorting (#103997) * Wed Aug 6 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.9-3 - include the symlink that ldconfig will create (#101764) * Sun Aug 3 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.9-1 - 1.99.9 * Thu Jul 10 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.8-1 - 1.99.8 * Tue Jun 10 2003 Jeremy Katz - update libgnomecanvas-devel buildrequirement * Mon Jun 9 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.7-2 - rebuild * Mon Jun 9 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.7-1 - 1.99.7 * Wed Jun 5 2003 Elliot Lee - rebuilt * Thu Jun 5 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.6-3 - rebuild * Mon May 26 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.6-2 - rebuild to fix deps * Mon May 26 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.6-1 - make libtool=/usr/bin/libtool * Sun May 25 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.6-1 - 1.99.6 * Tue May 6 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.4-1 - 1.99.4 * Wed Apr 16 2003 Jeremy Katz 2:1.99.3-1 - update to 1.99.3 - change package name * Mon Mar 24 2003 Jeremy Katz 1:0.24-1 - update to 0.24 and the fun of new abi * Fri Feb 7 2003 Jeremy Katz 1:0.23-1 - update to 0.23 - fix epoch on dependencies (#74571) - include more of the deps for the -devel package (#58040) * Wed Jan 22 2003 Tim Powers - rebuilt * Fri Dec 13 2002 Jeremy Katz 0.22-1 - update to 0.22 * Thu Nov 7 2002 Jeremy Katz 0.21-2 - rebuild for fixed X11 libdir path * Fri Nov 1 2002 Jeremy Katz 0.21-1 - update to 0.21 * Thu Oct 24 2002 Jeremy Katz 0.20.1-1 - update to 0.20.1 - remove files not being installed from build root * Wed Sep 25 2002 Jeremy Katz 0.20-1 - update to 0.20 * Tue Jul 09 2002 Karsten Hopp 0.19.2-4 - added missing BuildRequires (#68204) * Fri Jun 21 2002 Tim Powers - automated rebuild * Thu May 23 2002 Tim Powers - automated rebuild * Mon May 13 2002 Jeremy Katz - update to gal 0.19.2 * Wed Apr 10 2002 Jeremy Katz - include patch to not show popups if the entry doesn't have focus * Tue Mar 19 2002 Jeremy Katz - update to gal 0.19.1 * Wed Feb 27 2002 Jeremy Katz - rebuild in new environment * Fri Jan 25 2002 Havoc Pennington - rebuild in rawhide - fix a /usr/share -> datadir issue * Sun Jan 13 2002 Jeremy Katz - include translations (#58291) and other non-included files * Sat Jan 12 2002 Jeremy Katz - 0.19 * Sat Nov 17 2001 Jeremy Katz - 0.18.1 * Mon Nov 5 2001 Jeremy Katz - 0.18 * Fri Oct 19 2001 Matt Wilson - 0.15 * Thu Oct 4 2001 Havoc Pennington - 0.13 - add libgal.so.13.0.0 to file list * Tue Jul 24 2001 Alexander Larsson - Fix libgal-broken.patch to not link libgal.so to -lgal. * Fri Jul 13 2001 Alexander Larsson - Add build requirements. * Wed Jun 13 2001 Bill Nottingham - fix .la buildroot dainbramage - fix library dependency dainbramage * Tue Jun 12 2001 Bill Nottingham - gal-devel requires libgal7 (otherwise libgal.so symlink is dangling) - fix gnomeprint requirement * Fri Jun 8 2001 Jonathan Blandford - New version - Upgrade library * Thu Mar 01 2001 Owen Taylor - Rebuild for GTK+-1.2.9 include paths * Fri Dec 29 2000 Matt Wilson - de-helixify spec file - fix vendor/distribution From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Sun Nov 14 12:35:10 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:35:10 +0100 Subject: compat (libgal2 gtkhtml3) packages for Fedora Extras In-Reply-To: <1100420311l.7458l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100420311l.7458l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <20041114133510.0b0b9d77.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Just a comment on some package details: On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:18:31 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > Summary: gtkhtml library compatability version > Name: compat-gtkhtml3 > Version: 3.0.10 > Epoch: 0 > Release: %{epoch}.%{my_build} "Epoch" is really just an added method to influence RPM version-release comparison. A package with an epoch higher than the epoch in any other package is considered "newer" (=higher overall version), regardless of %version-%release. Expanding %epoch in %release doesn't make sense. Let your packages start at "Release: 1" and increase the release with every package revision. When the software version is upgraded, it is common to restart release at 1. Explicit "Epoch: 0" has been used in order to work around epoch promotion problems in old versions of RPM up to Red Hat Linux 8.0. When a package is not built for those distributions, explicit Epoch is not needed. > BuildRequires: compat-libgal2-devel >= 0:1.99.10 > Requires: compat-libgal2 Dependence on libgal2 is not automatic already? > %package devel > Summary: Libraries, includes, etc to develop gtkhtml applications > Group: Development/Libraries > Requires: %{name} = %{version}-%{release} When explicit "Epoch: 0" is used, above should read: Requires: %{name} = %{epoch}:%{version}-%{release} > Requires: compat-libgal2-devel >= 0:1.99.9 Above it's 1.99.10. > %files -f gtkhtml-3.0.lang > %defattr(-, root, root) > %doc AUTHORS ChangeLog NEWS README COPYING TODO > %{_libdir}/*.so.* > %{_libdir}/*.so.* Duplicate. > %{_libdir}/gtkhtml/*.so > %{_libdir}/bonobo/servers/*.server > %{_datadir}/gtkhtml-3.0 > Missing: %dir %{_libdir}/gtkhtml I see it's also missing in FC3 package. From symbiont at berlios.de Sun Nov 14 12:38:00 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:38:00 +0800 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <200411142038.00879.symbiont@berlios.de> On Sunday 14 November 2004 01:35, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > One of the things we should investigate is just reduce the shere > number of different files that get opened.... its about 11000 iirc > right now. Random thoughts ... sysconfig/ may need revamping to bring configuration together. Maybe write a sysconfig compiler script that compiles it all into one file. (I know half of it has nothing to do with SysV stuff, but that's another discussion.) For experiment sakes, it would be nice to see other init alternatives come in and make comparisons using the Boot Poster. And, it would be nice to have compatibility wrappers around chkconfig and friends to provide interfaces folks are used to. I'm still leaning towards Felix's minit as a potential alternative: http://www.fefe.de/minit/minit-linux-kongress2004.pdf But, it'll take some work getting it up to where system-config, editing sysconfig/ files, and using familiar script utils are compatible. Although most people don't care now a days, the mem footprint is a lot smaller on many of these alternatives. Might be good hack a config preload hook that brought in a binary config file making subsequent boot extremely fast... Hmm, I think I'll poke at this with a stick for awhile and see what bubbles up. No promises... ;) -- -jeff From Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de Sun Nov 14 11:41:17 2004 From: Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de (Bernd Bartmann) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:41:17 +0100 Subject: Problem with gnome-terminal session restore Message-ID: <4197445D.9030300@sohanet.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, I've a problem with gnome-terminal not restoring its size properly after sesssion-save, logout and login. Every time I get gnome-terminals of different sizes. Sometimes the size is ok and sometime not. I initially reported this problem over a year ago as bug #109486. Some other users seem to have the same issue. The bug is assinged to Ray Strode (rstrode at redhat.com) but still sits in new state. Best regards. - -- Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Bernd Bartmann I.S. Security and Network Engineer SoHaNet Technology GmbH / Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee 10-11 / 10553 Berlin Fon: +49 30 214783-44 / Fax: +49 30 214783-46 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBl0RdkQuIaHu84cIRApi6AJ9bozwBvxKe1fTfHfKv9aCDAgQrkwCeJ6zr PMpnRMS5Gfe4OBd1TWrF3GY= =OVyX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From symbiont at berlios.de Sun Nov 14 12:53:39 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:53:39 +0800 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <200411142038.00879.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411142038.00879.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <200411142053.39136.symbiont@berlios.de> On Sunday 14 November 2004 20:38, Jeff Pitman wrote: > Hmm, I think I'll poke at this with a stick for awhile and see what > bubbles up. ?No promises... ;) And, yes, I've read 99540 and know about LSB implications. It's an alternative. (Too bad alternatives was stuck with chkconfig, because now it's a little difficult to provide an alternative to chkconfig.) One thing to remember ... XFree86 became X.org; mp3 was dropped; and many more visible changes have been made over the years. Something that changes under the covers making things run faster wouldn't be a bad idea. :D (Course, if suspend worked reliably we wouldn't have this digression--I mean, discussion.) First step, though, is to experiment as an alternative. -- -jeff From mpeters at mac.com Sun Nov 14 14:15:59 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:15:59 +0000 Subject: compat (libgal2 gtkhtml3) packages for Fedora Extras In-Reply-To: <20041114133510.0b0b9d77.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> (from fedora@wir-sind-cool.org on Sun Nov 14 04:35:10 2004) References: <1100420311l.7458l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041114133510.0b0b9d77.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <1100441759l.25657l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/14/2004 04:35:10 AM, Michael Schwendt wrote: > Just a comment on some package details: > > On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:18:31 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > > Summary: gtkhtml library compatability version > > Name: compat-gtkhtml3 > > Version: 3.0.10 > > Epoch: 0 > > Release: %{epoch}.%{my_build} > > "Epoch" is really just an added method to influence RPM > version-release > comparison. A package with an epoch higher than the epoch in any > other > package is considered "newer" (=higher overall version), regardless > of > %version-%release. Expanding %epoch in %release doesn't make sense. Last time I read the packaging guidelines - Fedora.us wanted the epoch specified in the release tag. Using the %{epoch} ensures that happens and matches the real epoch. Furthermore, they wanted it to be the first number. They may have changed the guidelines though - if you ask me, they were WAY to complex. Not impossible to understand, but too complex nonetheless. From hp at redhat.com Sun Nov 14 14:37:22 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:37:22 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <200411142038.00879.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411142038.00879.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <1100443042.4292.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 20:38 +0800, Jeff Pitman wrote: > > I'm still leaning towards Felix's minit as a potential alternative: > http://www.fefe.de/minit/minit-linux-kongress2004.pdf Keep in mind the requirements of GUI: dynamic monitoring and control of what's happening, including reliable propagation of errors in machine- readable form (i.e. not stderr/syslog) Slide 19 ("How do I know which services are running?") in the minit deck gave me some "nobody has thought about how this works with a UI" sense ;-) so there might be some work left there. UI could be everything from graphical boot progress meter, to an admin start/stop services tool, to some part of the desktop with no visible initscripts relationship but underneath it happens to need to manipulate a service. See also David's post on fedora-desktop yesterday about getting to the login prompt more quickly. Havoc From symbiont at berlios.de Sun Nov 14 14:46:08 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:46:08 +0800 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100443042.4292.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200411142038.00879.symbiont@berlios.de> <1100443042.4292.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200411142246.08419.symbiont@berlios.de> On Sunday 14 November 2004 22:37, Havoc Pennington wrote: > UI could be everything from graphical boot progress meter, to an > admin start/stop services tool, to some part of the desktop with no > visible initscripts relationship but underneath it happens to need to > manipulate a service. Nothing like firing it up and seeing what breaks! I'll be using Enrico's fedora.us packaging as a base but will update to CVS. It was put together last year to help with Vserver to boot up faster. It will definitely require a lot of polishing to be a compelling alternative. I don't use the wording "replacement" as there is a lot of intertwined political mumbo jumbo about SysV. Thanks for the tips. -- -jeff From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 14 16:06:04 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:06:04 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100390736.3633.26.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100390736.3633.26.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <1100448364.2638.11.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 01:05 +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > How about going even further and solving the optimization task > automatically? Create a system which would (given certain constraints) > make small rearrangements in the order of services, relocate files on > the disk, etc. It would then keep rebooting, timing and making more > changes. Eventually converging to... Windows XP boot > times :) to be honest, reordering on disk I don't expect to be useful on the count that we're not really seek bound... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Sun Nov 14 16:14:35 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:14:35 +0100 Subject: compat (libgal2 gtkhtml3) packages for Fedora Extras In-Reply-To: <20041114163612.3e6f989b.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1100420311l.7458l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041114133510.0b0b9d77.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1100441759l.25657l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041114163612.3e6f989b.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <20041114171435.194ff0c8.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:36:12 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote: > There's a tendency towards making "Epoch: 0" fully optional again in > Fedora Extras, as an explicit Epoch is no longer needed. And this has been in the fedora.us QA checklist for a long time: Epoch * can be optionally defined "0" or omitted entirely. Not to be confused with the necessity to add Epoch to versioned dependencies. -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.667 loadavg: 0.78 0.37 0.16 From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Sun Nov 14 15:36:12 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:36:12 +0100 Subject: compat (libgal2 gtkhtml3) packages for Fedora Extras In-Reply-To: <1100441759l.25657l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100420311l.7458l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041114133510.0b0b9d77.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1100441759l.25657l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <20041114163612.3e6f989b.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:15:59 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > > Summary: gtkhtml library compatability version > > > Name: compat-gtkhtml3 > > > Version: 3.0.10 > > > Epoch: 0 > > > Release: %{epoch}.%{my_build} > > > > "Epoch" is really just an added method to influence RPM > > version-release > > comparison. A package with an epoch higher than the epoch in any > > other > > package is considered "newer" (=higher overall version), regardless > > of > > %version-%release. Expanding %epoch in %release doesn't make sense. > > Last time I read the packaging guidelines - Fedora.us wanted the epoch > specified in the release tag. Never. > Furthermore, they wanted it to be the first number. Never. The prefix 0.fdr has nothing to do with the Epoch. It ensures that any package merged into Fedora Core would win version-release comparison. > They may have changed the guidelines though - It's unchanged. > if you ask me, they were > WAY to complex. Not impossible to understand, but too complex > nonetheless. There's a tendency towards making "Epoch: 0" fully optional again in Fedora Extras, as an explicit Epoch is no longer needed. From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Sun Nov 14 17:00:41 2004 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:00:41 -0000 (GMT) Subject: emacs-nxml-mode new version out. In-Reply-To: <20040726155521.GR8175@redhat.com> References: <200407261630.43927.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> <20040726155521.GR8175@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1963.192.168.100.89.1100451641.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Hi Tim, I'm going to have to keep an eye on you ;-) Your version is 3 versions behind now: http://www.thaiopensource.com/download/nxml-mode-20041004.tar.gz You fancy updating your rpm again? Cheers. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1467 624141 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ Tim Waugh said: > On Mon, Jul 26, 2004 at 04:30:42PM +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > >> If I remember Tim Waugh did an rpm for this. >> >> Tim, do you have an updated one or should I take your src.rpm and update >> it? >> >> http://www.thaiopensource.com/download/nxml-mode-20040726.tar.gz > > Thanks, updated. > > ftp://people.redhat.com/twaugh/docbook/nxml-mode/ > > Tim. > */ > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From mpeters at mac.com Sun Nov 14 17:02:05 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:02:05 +0000 Subject: compat (libgal2 gtkhtml3) packages for Fedora Extras In-Reply-To: <20041114171435.194ff0c8.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> (from fedora@wir-sind-cool.org on Sun Nov 14 08:14:35 2004) References: <1100420311l.7458l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041114133510.0b0b9d77.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1100441759l.25657l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041114163612.3e6f989b.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <20041114171435.194ff0c8.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <1100451725l.25657l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/14/2004 08:14:35 AM, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > And this has been in the fedora.us QA checklist for a long time: OK. That's fine - I don't package for fedora, my understanding from reading their docs was that with the exception to updated RH packages - they wanted the epoch in the release tag, I think to make it easy to see the epoch from the stand alone package. Browsing the repository - they have an aweful lot of packages that start with a 0 in the release tag - which would seem to confirm that they are doing exactly what I did by expanding epoch in the release tag. From mpeters at mac.com Sun Nov 14 17:16:08 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:16:08 +0000 Subject: compat (libgal2 gtkhtml3) packages for Fedora Extras In-Reply-To: <20041114163612.3e6f989b.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> (from fedora@wir-sind-cool.org on Sun Nov 14 07:36:12 2004) References: <1100420311l.7458l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041114133510.0b0b9d77.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1100441759l.25657l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041114163612.3e6f989b.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <1100452568l.25657l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/14/2004 07:36:12 AM, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > Last time I read the packaging guidelines - Fedora.us wanted the > epoch > > specified in the release tag. > > Never. > > > Furthermore, they wanted it to be the first number. > > Never. > > The prefix 0.fdr has nothing to do with the Epoch. It ensures that > any > package merged into Fedora Core would win version-release comparison. I just looked through the doc again - you're right. It had been awhile since I read it, I don't package for Fedora (hence my request for someone who does ...). Their scheme though is rather complex - I guess to overcome shortcoming in rpm's versioning - but still overly complex. It's probably vepoch I was remembering, but not having read the docs - well anyway, the epoch in the release tag makes sense to me because it gives a visual representation of what the epoch is just by looking at the file. I'm not suggesting Fedora change things, but epoch makes sense, a complex release scheme, and vepoch - and there you have it. Oh well. So - any fedora extras people (who know the release scheme ;) want to package these for extras? From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Sun Nov 14 17:47:02 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:47:02 +0100 Subject: compat (libgal2 gtkhtml3) packages for Fedora Extras In-Reply-To: <1100452568l.25657l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100420311l.7458l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041114133510.0b0b9d77.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1100441759l.25657l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041114163612.3e6f989b.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1100452568l.25657l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <20041114184702.77ce76d8.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:16:08 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > The prefix 0.fdr has nothing to do with the Epoch. It ensures that any > > package merged into Fedora Core would win version-release comparison. > Their scheme though is rather complex - I guess to overcome shortcoming > in rpm's versioning - but still overly complex. At least the package naming and versioning guidelines are documented at all. ;) > It's probably vepoch I was remembering, but not having read the docs - The "versioned specific epoch" (vepoch) is a different concept. Basically, it's just an ordinary most significant number in the %release field (which can followed by an arbitrary part to its right). which to increment with every package revision. It's unrelated to RPM's %epoch. And the documentation is clear on that. Example: Release: 5.1-0.fdr.4.2 5.1 = software version 0.fdr = fedora.us specific prefix 4 = actual package release number = vepoch 2 = Fedora Core 2 The vepoch is more than a simple release number, since it is also used to deal with upstream versioning schemes which break RPM version comparison (e.g. weird alpha/beta/rc/snapshot version names): Release: 5.1-0.fdr.0.1.beta3.2 5.1 = software version first part (!) 0.fdr = fedora.us specific prefix 0.1 = vepoch scheme for pre-releases, 1 = actual package revision beta3 = software version postfix ==> 5.1beta3 is full version 2 = Fedora Core 2 Release: 5.1-0.fdr.0.2.beta3.2 5.1 = software version first part 0.fdr = fedora.us specific prefix 0.2 = vepoch scheme for pre-releases, 2 = actual package revision beta3 = software version postfix ==> 5.1beta3 is full version 2 = Fedora Core 2 Naming the package 5.1beta3-0.fdr.1 would make an upgrade to final 5.1-0.fdr.1 impossible without increasing the real %epoch, because "5.1beta3" > "5.1". For that final release, in fedora.us scheme, vepoch would simply turn from 0.x to x as in first example. > well anyway, the epoch in the release tag makes sense to me because it > gives a visual representation of what the epoch is just by looking at > the file. Duplicating %epoch in %release would only add confusing complexity. Tools like Yum display the Epoch in package versions as %epoch:%version-%release. This adds enough confusion already for users who need libfoo.i386 1:1.2 and only find libfoo-1.2. > I'm not suggesting Fedora change things, but epoch makes sense, a > complex release scheme, and vepoch - and there you have it. > > Oh well. > > So - any fedora extras people (who know the release scheme ;) want to > package these for extras? Probably the same people who would step forward and also package and maintain gnomesword2 and monodoc and "other software that needs the older shared libraries" for Fedora Extras? :) -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.667 loadavg: 1.18 1.29 0.85 From tim at niemueller.de Sun Nov 14 19:01:50 2004 From: tim at niemueller.de (Tim Niemueller) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:01:50 +0100 Subject: Keyboard configuration Message-ID: <4197AB9E.6060306@niemueller.de> Hi list. Warning, this is a rant. Last week I got an IBM T41p. So I went and installed FC3 on the notebook. Works pretty good so far, but there are some things that are really annoying. The worst thing is the keyboard configuration. The default configuration works out of the box so don't get me wrong, basics are working. But newer IBM notebooks have two extra keys beside the cursor-up key (see http://www.theregister.co.uk/media/1333.jpg). I'm now trying to get these keys to work reliably for hours without success... From xev I know the key scan code, they are 234 (left) and 233 (right). nice, so just create an xmodmap file and load it, done... Hah! I created that very file and mapped left to F19 and right to F20. X now reported these settings just fine. So I went on to set Gnome to load that file (using gnome session settings). When setting priority to 50 it would load but then be overwritten by some other program, as it seems. No effect. So I set the priority to 30 and the keys were loaded - after an extra delay of about a minute during the loading process when the splash was shown... OK, then I would have to do it the xkb way. Hah! Have you ever looked at those files? I read quiet a bit of documentation but it's just weirdo. No way to figure out where to tweak what and how much to get it cleanly integrated. And if you even plan to make it available from the Gnome config tool (so that this may become a patch to let more users benefit) it's even stranger. I finally found out that the keyboard setting seems to be just for the geometry display without deeper sense. The keyboard is set in xorg.conf to pc105, period... It has some influence on the symbol tables loaded. but I could not get it to load the files I had written. Then I tried it to make it an add-on to te german (de) symbol table with a new "thinkpadt41p" section. Without success. If you look deeper into this gkb still uses xmodmap, while on startup you are notified that your .xmodmap file will be ignored. How does that fit!? Is there somebody out there with deeper knowledge willing to help to get these simple to keys integrated. I think they would be just fine for switching to the left/right desktop... Thanks, Tim -- Tim Niemueller www.niemueller.de ================================================================= Imagination is more important than knowledge. (Albert Einstein) From rstrode at redhat.com Sun Nov 14 21:45:40 2004 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:45:40 -0500 Subject: Problem with gnome-terminal session restore In-Reply-To: <4197445D.9030300@sohanet.de> References: <4197445D.9030300@sohanet.de> Message-ID: <1100468740.4875.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Bernd, > I've a problem with gnome-terminal not restoring its size properly after > sesssion-save, logout and login. Every time I get gnome-terminals of > different sizes. Sometimes the size is ok and sometime not. I initially > reported this problem over a year ago as bug #109486. Some other users > seem to have the same issue. > > The bug is assinged to Ray Strode (rstrode at redhat.com) but still sits in > new state. Sorry for the delay. I've spent the last week or so going through and cleaning out old bugs, but I hadn't gotten to yours yet. In the future, if you'd like a status update just post a message in the bug report asking for one. I will receive an email with your bug comment and that will bring your bug to my attention. --Ray Strode From Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de Sun Nov 14 22:11:04 2004 From: Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de (Bernd Bartmann) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 23:11:04 +0100 Subject: Problem with gnome-terminal session restore In-Reply-To: <1100468740.4875.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4197445D.9030300@sohanet.de> <1100468740.4875.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4197D7F8.8080702@sohanet.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ray Strode wrote: | Hi Bernd, | | |>I've a problem with gnome-terminal not restoring its size properly after |>sesssion-save, logout and login. Every time I get gnome-terminals of |>different sizes. Sometimes the size is ok and sometime not. I initially |>reported this problem over a year ago as bug #109486. Some other users |>seem to have the same issue. |> |>The bug is assinged to Ray Strode (rstrode at redhat.com) but still sits in |>new state. | | | Sorry for the delay. I've spent the last week or so going through and | cleaning out old bugs, but I hadn't gotten to yours yet. In the future, | if you'd like a status update just post a message in the bug report | asking for one. I will receive an email with your bug comment and that | will bring your bug to my attention. Ok Ray, as you suggested I've now opened a new bug in Gnome Bugzilla: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158306 Best regards. - -- Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Bernd Bartmann I.S. Security and Network Engineer SoHaNet Technology GmbH / Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee 10-11 / 10553 Berlin Fon: +49 30 214783-44 / Fax: +49 30 214783-46 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBl9f4kQuIaHu84cIRAuhyAKCqOJSKCpJAd67OYhHmH8uZbqiwkgCgnCdg K0GcZwaUgv7xVxc6NklIfZY= =v3fv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dhollis at davehollis.com Sun Nov 14 23:44:07 2004 From: dhollis at davehollis.com (David Hollis) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 01:44:07 +0200 Subject: udev and palm pilot In-Reply-To: <1100316958.3865.2.camel@supernova> References: <1100310865.3488.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100315919.4055.6.camel@supernova> <1100316958.3865.2.camel@supernova> Message-ID: <1100475847.18611.1.camel@dhollis-lnx.centricconsulting.com> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 21:35 -0600, John Mizell wrote: > Well I got the sync to work as advertised in the documentation. I was > trying to use /dev/ttyUSB0 directly instead of /dev/pilot. But I would > still like to know if I do put a /etc/udev/permissions.d/new.permissions > will it use that file over the 0-udev.permissions? > I haven't looked at how udev handles those files myself, but typical UNIX behavior for that sort of thing is create a file with a smaller lead number and it will be processed first and thus match earlier. I tend to do something like 10-myvalues.permissions. Works fine. -- David Hollis -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Mon Nov 15 00:08:22 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:08:22 -0600 Subject: udev and palm pilot In-Reply-To: <1100475847.18611.1.camel@dhollis-lnx.centricconsulting.com> References: <1100310865.3488.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100315919.4055.6.camel@supernova> <1100316958.3865.2.camel@supernova> <1100475847.18611.1.camel@dhollis-lnx.centricconsulting.com> Message-ID: <1100477302.5648.1.camel@c515816-a> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 01:44 +0200, David Hollis wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 21:35 -0600, John Mizell wrote: > > Well I got the sync to work as advertised in the documentation. I was > > trying to use /dev/ttyUSB0 directly instead of /dev/pilot. But I would > > still like to know if I do put a /etc/udev/permissions.d/new.permissions > > will it use that file over the 0-udev.permissions? > > > > I haven't looked at how udev handles those files myself, but typical > UNIX behavior for that sort of thing is create a file with a smaller > lead number and it will be processed first and thus match earlier. I > tend to do something like 10-myvalues.permissions. > > Works fine. > maybe i'm missing something but i do not have any USB devices period. Does that mean my udev is not working? Otto Haliburton From mike at flyn.org Sun Nov 14 19:16:51 2004 From: mike at flyn.org (W. Michael Petullo) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:16:51 -0600 Subject: Some encryption-related projects Message-ID: <20041114191651.GA5555@imp.flyn.org> I have several encryption-related projects that I like to advertise on this list every once in a while in hopes of attracting interested developers or testers. Since we are just beginning work on Fedora Core 4, now seemed like a good time to mention them. 1. Encrypted swap. This is a prerequisite for many different disk encryption techniques. See [1] for a good example of why this is necessary (potential shortcoming of Apple's FileVault). See Red Hat bug #127378 for some discussion about this, including a proposed patch for initscripts. The patch has not been scrutinized very much yet, so is only meant to encourage discussion at this point. 2. Encrypted root filesystem. Red Hat Bug #182479 discusses adding support for an encrypted root filesystem to Fedora. The bug contains a patch for mkinird that facilitates this. Eventually it would be nice to see support in anaconda for this, but #182479 is the first step. 3. Pam-keyring. The pam-keyring PAM module unlocks a GNOME keyring for a user using that user's login password. The idea behind pam-keyring is to make using GNOME keyrings as transparent as possible. Pam-keyring is available at http://flyn.org/projects/pam_keyring/index.html. 4. Command line gnome-keyring tool. GNOME bug #155681 proposes an addition to gnome-keyring. The gnome-keyringtool utility is a program that manipulates keyrings from the command line. I originally wrote gnome-keyringtool so that it could be assigned SELinux privileges and used by pam-keyring. This avoids assigning additional privileges to various login programs. 5. Automounting encrypted removable filesystems. I would like to see encrypted removable filesystems handled as transparently as other removable media. Red Hat bug #133461 discusses this a bit. I have done some experimentation with this and have a prototype working. However, my work contains a large kludge to get HAL to acknowledge dm-crypt filesystems properly. Documentation of this shortcoming may be found at http://freedesktop.org/pipermail/hal/2004-September/001051.html and http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=109937418210973&w=2. [1] Archive of bugtraq mailing list message: http://securityfocus.com/archive/1/367116/2004-06-24/2004-06-30/0 Date: 06/25/2004 Subject: Mac OS X stores login/Keychain/FileVault passwords on disk Author: Matt Johnston -- Mike :wq From sking4 at cinci.rr.com Mon Nov 15 01:19:03 2004 From: sking4 at cinci.rr.com (Salane KIng) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:19:03 -0500 Subject: glibc-2.3.3-76 problem starting httpd Message-ID: <200411142019.03992@x-face> service httpd start Starting httpd: /usr/sbin/httpd: error while loading shared libraries: librt.so.1: failed to map segment from shared object: Permission denied rpm -q --whatprovides /lib/librt.so.1 glibc-2.3.3-76 ls -la /lib/librt.so.1 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 14 Nov 14 14:36 /lib/librt.so.1 -> librt-2.3.3.so ls -la /lib/librt-2.3.3.so -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 47896 Nov 10 07:37 /lib/librt-2.3.3.so From david at fubar.dk Mon Nov 15 01:24:47 2004 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:24:47 -0500 Subject: Fedora power management In-Reply-To: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB605@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB605@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1100481888.4233.14.camel@davidz> Hi, On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 20:41 +0000, Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng) wrote: > Has this been done before? Or is it worth discussion? I thought I > would try you guys at f-d-l and then try the gnome people when I know > more good ideas/case studies. > I think a better approach might be to teach hal about ACPI (for x86 and others), PMU (for PowerMac's etc.) and provide an abstraction using the functionality already in hal (e.g. properties on hal device objects and callouts, device information files). This abstraction should be made sufficiently extensible such that it may support more than ACPI and PMU as well as the varying features on different laptops [1]. http://freedesktop.org/pipermail/hal/2004-July/000555.html Nothing really happened, though. Now that FC3 is out I hope to find some time to do this for FC4 - it shouldn't be too difficult. An interesting question is how we allow the desktop session to say "put the system into standby". One trivial idea is to provide a 'system- suspend' command (through consolehelper or something), however I think that it might make more sense to make the hal daemon expose a D-BUS interface with the appropriate methods - e.g. perhaps just the method Suspend() on an interface org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.PowerManagement. This method call should map to an appropriate script. That way we can leverage the D-BUS policy system for allowing/denying this action [2]. Plus, that we'll need this in HAL anyway for other kind hardware/actions (e.g. Rename() and Eject() on storage volumes) and it makes it somewhat easier to use from e.g. GNOME applets. Cheers, David [1] : Some laptops doesn't turn off the display when the lid is closed (my Powerbook 12" for instance); tablets PC's probably don't have a lid at all etc. [2] : which may be as simple as only allowing an authorized user at the console to perform the action. From david at fubar.dk Mon Nov 15 01:35:27 2004 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:35:27 -0500 Subject: Some encryption-related projects In-Reply-To: <20041114191651.GA5555@imp.flyn.org> References: <20041114191651.GA5555@imp.flyn.org> Message-ID: <1100482527.4233.23.camel@davidz> On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 13:16 -0600, W. Michael Petullo wrote: > 3. Pam-keyring. > > The pam-keyring PAM module unlocks a GNOME keyring for a user using that > user's login password. The idea behind pam-keyring is to make using > GNOME keyrings as transparent as possible. Pam-keyring is available > at http://flyn.org/projects/pam_keyring/index.html. > I think it would be awesome to get something like into the distro. > 5. Automounting encrypted removable filesystems. > > I would like to see encrypted removable filesystems handled as > transparently as other removable media. Red Hat bug #133461 > discusses this a bit. I have done some experimentation with > this and have a prototype working. However, my work contains > a large kludge to get HAL to acknowledge dm-crypt filesystems > properly. Documentation of this shortcoming may be found at > http://freedesktop.org/pipermail/hal/2004-September/001051.html and > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=109937418210973&w=2. > I'm actually working on this; I found it requires some metadata on the encrypted partition to work really well [1], but I think I got most of the things sorted such that gnome-volume-manager can popup a dialog asking for a passphrase when encrypted media is inserted. If the passphrase is correct the media will automount; I'll post to the hal mailing list about this when it has matured a bit (probably within a few weeks). Cheers, David [1] : e.g. to make hal detect that this is in fact an encrypted filesystem; what cipher is used; to store a passphrase-protected encryption key and so on. Fortunately, ext3 has room for such metadata (the first 512 bytes are simply ignored) and vfat can be uhmm, manipulated, to do the same. From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Mon Nov 15 01:35:07 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:35:07 -0500 Subject: Some encryption-related projects In-Reply-To: <1100482527.4233.23.camel@davidz> References: <20041114191651.GA5555@imp.flyn.org> <1100482527.4233.23.camel@davidz> Message-ID: <1100482507.14908.4.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 20:35 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 13:16 -0600, W. Michael Petullo wrote: > > 3. Pam-keyring. > > > > The pam-keyring PAM module unlocks a GNOME keyring for a user using that > > user's login password. The idea behind pam-keyring is to make using > > GNOME keyrings as transparent as possible. Pam-keyring is available > > at http://flyn.org/projects/pam_keyring/index.html. > > > > I think it would be awesome to get something like into the distro. I made a similar bug-report for pam_ssh, which decrypts your SSH using your login password. It was shot down. From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 05:32:49 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:32:49 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <200411142038.00879.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411142038.00879.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <20041115053249.GE24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jeff Pitman (symbiont at berlios.de) said: > I'm still leaning towards Felix's minit as a potential alternative: > http://www.fefe.de/minit/minit-linux-kongress2004.pdf > > But, it'll take some work getting it up to where system-config, editing > sysconfig/ files, and using familiar script utils are compatible. Using minit as a replacement for init saves zero time (and adds additional complexity due to its (IMO, broken) dependency model.) It's fixing the underlying actions under init that is the big win. Bill From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 05:35:06 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:35:06 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100374877.8404.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> <1100374877.8404.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041115053506.GF24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Owen Taylor (otaylor at redhat.com) said: > My point is basically to move away from "is rhgb a bottleneck", > "would parallelization help?" speculation, and have a single graphical > display that can immediately provide those answers. Well, the answers are 'yes', and 'not immediately'. At least in testing. :) Bill From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 05:35:49 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:35:49 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100389369.5074.15.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> <1100374877.8404.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100389369.5074.15.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041115053549.GG24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Arjan van de Ven (arjanv at redhat.com) said: > On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 14:41 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > > > My point is basically to move away from "is rhgb a bottleneck", > > "would parallelization help?" speculation, and have a single graphical > > display that can immediately provide those answers. > > if you go parallal, you *have* to do the readahead-early thing, > otherwise you just seek your disk to death and end up being slower most > likely.... Bah. Just do the readahead on the first boot., and then reorient your disk blocks in the desktop background thereafter. :) Bill From symbiont at berlios.de Mon Nov 15 06:34:11 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:34:11 +0800 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041115053249.GE24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200411142038.00879.symbiont@berlios.de> <20041115053249.GE24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200411151434.11169.symbiont@berlios.de> On Monday 15 November 2004 13:32, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Using minit as a replacement for init saves zero time (and adds > additional complexity due to its (IMO, broken) dependency model.) > > It's fixing the underlying actions under init that is the big win. I agree. Though, it's nice to look at it to see what it can bring to the table, because Minit you can get a call tree of: Minit -> service (single exec called from C) In most cases. Whereas with the current init process you get a calltree similar to this: Init -> Shell (rc) -> Exec'd Shells (rc?.d/S*) -> Config Files -> service Several levels of indirection brings flexibility in what you can do and how you can configure it (Just look at the difference between SuSE and Redhat; yeah, LSB, whatever). But, this comes at a cost. So, playing with Minit does not necessarily mean an immediate call for a replacement of init. Playing with minit highlights the changes needed in the system configuration. Though, trying to keep compliant with LSB and maintaining use of /bin/sh is going to be a tough job with the current init. With minit, the tough job would be integration with current infra. Course, this is tougher than the former, but nonetheless, as I stated earlier, a good exercise. Maybe in the end, a C version of rc, a config compiler, and a parallelization technique with deps will get the job done using the current init. take care, -- -jeff From arjanv at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 07:48:18 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:48:18 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041115053549.GG24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> <1100374877.8404.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100389369.5074.15.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041115053549.GG24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041115074818.GA2045@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 12:35:49AM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Bah. > > Just do the readahead on the first boot., and then reorient your disk blocks > in the desktop background thereafter. :) but in a parallel startup situation, the order in which you read stuff no longer is deterministic... so reordering no longer has the effect you expect it to have.. From twaugh at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 09:34:08 2004 From: twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:34:08 +0000 Subject: emacs-nxml-mode new version out. In-Reply-To: <1963.192.168.100.89.1100451641.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <200407261630.43927.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> <20040726155521.GR8175@redhat.com> <1963.192.168.100.89.1100451641.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <20041115093408.GR17777@redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 05:00:41PM -0000, Gavin Henry wrote: > Hi Tim, > > I'm going to have to keep an eye on you ;-) > > Your version is 3 versions behind now: > > http://www.thaiopensource.com/download/nxml-mode-20041004.tar.gz > > You fancy updating your rpm again? Done. Thanks for the reminder. Tim. */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From d.lesca at solinos.it Mon Nov 15 10:12:01 2004 From: d.lesca at solinos.it (Dario Lesca) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:12:01 +0100 Subject: logwatch: patch for zz-disk_space Message-ID: <1100513521.3367.13.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> This patch for logwatch is usefull when there are device whit long name into the first column: ####################################### --- /etc/log.d/scripts/services/zz-disk_space.orig 2004-11-15 00:35:15.875785762 +0100 +++ /etc/log.d/scripts/services/zz-disk_space 2004-11-15 00:36:48.774989023 +0100 @@ -17,7 +17,8 @@ echo echo "------------------ Disk Space --------------------" echo - df -h | grep '^/dev/' + #df -h | grep '^/dev/' + df -Ph|awk 'NR==1||$1~/^\/dev/ {printf("%-30s %7s %7s %7s %5s %s\n", $1, $2, $3, $4, $5, $6)}' echo elif [ "$PRINTING" = "y" ] ; then echo ####################################### Example, on my FC3 system the df -h command show: Filesystem Dimens. Usati Disp. Uso% Montato su /dev/mapper/Vol0-LvRoot 4,9G 2,1G 2,9G 43% / /dev/hda1 92M 3,6M 88M 4% /boot none 121M 0 121M 0% /dev/shm /dev/mapper/Vol0-LvHome 3,0G 184K 3,0G 1% /home /dev/mapper/Vol0-LvU 24G 22G 2,1G 92% /u /dev/mapper/Vol0-LvVar 3,9G 95M 3,9G 3% /var The logwatch report show: /dev/mapper/Vol0-LvRoot /dev/hda1 92M 3,6M 88M 4% /boot /dev/mapper/Vol0-LvHome /dev/mapper/Vol0-LvU 24G 22G 2,1G 92% /u /dev/mapper/Vol0-LvVar and the view is not completed. It is enough to signal this little problem to this ML or I must do some other thing ? Many thanks -- Dario Lesca From veguilla at hpcf.upr.edu Mon Nov 15 10:15:55 2004 From: veguilla at hpcf.upr.edu (Ricardo Veguilla) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 06:15:55 -0400 Subject: compat (libgal2 gtkhtml3) packages for Fedora Extras In-Reply-To: <1100420311l.7458l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100420311l.7458l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1100513756.28395.22.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 08:18 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > I discovered I needed these two packages to get gnomesword2 to build in > FC3. Wouldn't be easier to compile gnomesword2 against the newer libs? > I have since encountered other people with other software that needs > the older shared libraries, such as monodoc. Yes, but since the Novel/Ximian guys like to develop against the stable releases (more specifically, against the libraries shipped with the stable release), monodoc will probably use the newer libs now that FC3 was released. > Attached are spec files that are based on the FC2 spec files for those > packages - it would great if *someone* who is a Fedora Extras would be > willing to adopt them for Fedora Extras since FC3 ships versions that > are too new for some software. All the build/install dependencies they > need are already in FC2 (well, the compat-gtkhtml3 requires the compat- > libgal2, but ...) In general, I don't think adding compatibilty libraries should be done unless there is no other alternative. The effort required to mantained them, etc will probably be better employed porting the applications to the new libraries. Regards, -- Ricardo Veguilla From ee21rh at surrey.ac.uk Mon Nov 15 11:04:31 2004 From: ee21rh at surrey.ac.uk (Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng)) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:04:31 -0000 Subject: Fedora power management Message-ID: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB606@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> David, (cc-ing to hal-devel) -----Original Message----- From: David Zeuthen [mailto:davidfubar.dk] Sent: Mon 15/11/2004 01:24 >On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 20:41 +0000, Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng) >wrote: >> Has this been done before? Or is it worth discussion? I thought I >> would try you guys at f-d-l and then try the gnome people when I know >> more good ideas/case studies. >> > >I think a better approach might be to teach hal about ACPI (for x86 and >others), PMU (for PowerMac's etc.) and provide an abstraction using the >functionality already in hal (e.g. properties on hal device objects and >callouts, device information files). This abstraction should be made >sufficiently extensible such that it may support more than ACPI and PMU >as well as the varying features on different laptops [1]. > Sounds good to me, cleanest and most portable across architectures. > http://freedesktop.org/pipermail/hal/2004-July/000555.html > >Nothing really happened, though. Now that FC3 is out I hope to find some >time to do this for FC4 - it shouldn't be too difficult. > Well, if you need a hand... >An interesting question is how we allow the desktop session to say "put >the system into standby". One trivial idea is to provide a 'system- >suspend' command (through consolehelper or something), however I think >that it might make more sense to make the hal daemon expose a D-BUS >interface with the appropriate methods - e.g. perhaps just the method >Suspend() on an interface org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.PowerManagement. org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.PowerManagement sounds good. Then battstat could then just call on this interface to do the suspend, and do away with that nasty textbox configuration option for suspending. >This method call should map to an appropriate script. That way we can >leverage the D-BUS policy system for allowing/denying this action [2]. >Plus, that we'll need this in HAL anyway for other kind hardware/actions >(e.g. Rename() and Eject() on storage volumes) and it makes it somewhat >easier to use from e.g. GNOME applets. So in this unified-HAL theory, where would the brightness of an LCD panel live? Would a "LCD panel" be varient of monitor in the HAL tree? How can this information be added to HAL? Similarly, could we Implement an Eject() [to call cardctl eject?] on a PCMCIA adaptor quite simply? > >Cheers, >David > >[1] : Some laptops doesn't turn off the display when the lid is closed >(my Powerbook 12" for instance); tablets PC's probably don't have a lid >at all etc. > >[2] : which may be as simple as only allowing an authorized user at the >console to perform the action. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nphilipp at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 11:26:16 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:26:16 +0100 Subject: logwatch: patch for zz-disk_space In-Reply-To: <1100513521.3367.13.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> References: <1100513521.3367.13.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> Message-ID: <1100517976.25582.8.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 11:12 +0100, Dario Lesca wrote: > It is enough to signal this little problem to this ML or I must do some > other thing ? Please submit a bug report at https://bugzilla.redhat.com for the logwatch component. Thanks, Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Mon Nov 15 11:56:51 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:56:51 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041115125651.44dd5faa@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. Arjan van de Ven wrote: > given the 7 second disk read time... 10 seconds is a bit unrealistic. > One of the critical paths will be getting an IP address and mounting the > /home dir over nfs... ethernet negotiation can easily be 10 seconds > already with gige, and DHCP is depending on that to complete before it > can get a lease. WRT DHCP: why does FC wait in the foreground to get an IP? Is there a magic switch I haven't found yet to make that a background process? It's quite boring to watch my notebook wait for a nonexistent DHCP server because it's location changed from the last boot. -- "Shall I tell you what I want? What I really really want?" From yusufg at outblaze.com Mon Nov 15 12:03:24 2004 From: yusufg at outblaze.com (Yusuf Goolamabbas) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:03:24 +0800 Subject: [yusufg@outblaze.com: ext3 reservation seems to cause major slowdown in synctest in 2.6.10-rc2 vs 2.6.9] Message-ID: <20041115120324.GA1262@outblaze.com> Maybe of relevance to fedora developers since ext3 reservation patch was first introduced in Fedora. Not sure how close the current patch in FC3 is to the one in 2.6.10-rc2 Would appreciate if others could try the same benchmark with different i/o controllers (ATA/SATA/3ware/Fibre) ----- Forwarded message from Yusuf Goolamabbas ----- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:33:25 +0800 From: Yusuf Goolamabbas To: linux-kernel at vger.kernel.org Subject: ext3 reservation seems to cause major slowdown in synctest in 2.6.10-rc2 vs 2.6.9 Message-ID: <20041115063325.GA31537 at outblaze.com> I have a P3-500 box /384 MB ram and 2 scsi disks (sda and sdb). OS is on sda and test partions is on sdb aic7xxx driver Using anticipatory schedulor with a tag_depth of 4 (this is set via modules.conf) options aic7xxx aic7xxx=global_tag_depth:4 /dev/sdb1 is created with ext3 and htree is enabled. Mounted as /htree synctest obtained from here (synctest tries to simulate an MTA behaviour) http://www.zip.com.au/~akpm/linux/patches/stuff/ext3-tools.tar.gz I run the following commands on both 2.6.9 and 2.6.10-rc2 /usr/bin/time -p ./synctest -fu -t 100 -p1 -n1 /htree/nfsexport timing results 2.6.9 real 57.35 user 1.37 sys 14.26 2.6.10-rc2 real 86.83 user 1.32 sys 14.02 Mounting with noreservation gives the following numbers real 58.77 user 1.46 sys 14.48 ----- End forwarded message ----- From arjanv at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 12:05:06 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:05:06 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041115125651.44dd5faa@nausicaa.camperquake.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041115125651.44dd5faa@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <1100520306.2936.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 12:56 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > Hi. > > Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > > given the 7 second disk read time... 10 seconds is a bit unrealistic. > > One of the critical paths will be getting an IP address and mounting the > > /home dir over nfs... ethernet negotiation can easily be 10 seconds > > already with gige, and DHCP is depending on that to complete before it > > can get a lease. > > WRT DHCP: why does FC wait in the foreground to get an IP? Is there a > magic switch I haven't found yet to make that a background process? nfs mounted dirs ... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dragoran at feuerpokemon.de Mon Nov 15 12:24:55 2004 From: dragoran at feuerpokemon.de (dragoran) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:24:55 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100520306.2936.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041115125651.44dd5faa@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100520306.2936.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <4198A017.5010407@feuerpokemon.de> Arjan van de Ven schrieb: >On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 12:56 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > > >>Hi. >> >>Arjan van de Ven wrote: >> >> >> >>>given the 7 second disk read time... 10 seconds is a bit unrealistic. >>>One of the critical paths will be getting an IP address and mounting the >>>/home dir over nfs... ethernet negotiation can easily be 10 seconds >>>already with gige, and DHCP is depending on that to complete before it >>>can get a lease. >>> >>> >>WRT DHCP: why does FC wait in the foreground to get an IP? Is there a >>magic switch I haven't found yet to make that a background process? >> >> > >nfs mounted dirs ... > > but there should be an option to let it be done in the background .... From buildsys at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 12:52:15 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:52:15 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041113 changes Message-ID: <200411151252.iAFCqFr26859@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: MAKEDEV-3.15-3 -------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 3.15-3 - rebuild * Fri Nov 12 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 3.15-2 - rebuild * Fri Nov 12 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 3.15-1 - set the file creation context for symlinks as well (#138897) - verify the file context for symlinks as well - use lgetfilecon instead of getfilecon so that we don't chase symlinks when determining the current context of a file (Dan Walsh) - update to 27 October 2004 devices.txt: - remove msd* devices - add ub* devices - comment out ubd* (98/0) devices for now, would conflict with a ub block device (180/24) - handle symlink-already-exists errors MyODBC-2.50.39-21 ----------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Tom Lane 2.50.39-21 - Do aclocal/automake/autoconf to update obsolete scripts (bug #122877) MySQL-python-1.0.0-2 -------------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Tom Lane 1.0.0-2 - bring us to python 2.4 * Thu Nov 11 2004 Tom Lane 1.0.0-1 - update to 1.0.0; rebuild against mysqlclient10 PyQt-3.13-2 ----------- * Sat Nov 13 2004 Than Ngo 3.13-2 - rebuilt against python 2.4 antlr-0:2.7.2-3jpp_3fc ---------------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Gary Benson - 0:2.7.2-3jpp_3fc - Omit the jedit subpackage to fix dependencies. * Thu Nov 04 2004 Gary Benson - 0:2.7.2-3jpp_2fc - Build into Fedora. * Thu Mar 04 2004 Frank Ch. Eigler - 0:2.7.2-3jpp_1rh - RH vacuuming apr-util-0.9.4-18 ----------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 0.9.4-18 - rebuild against db-4.3.21. aspell-12:0.50.5-4 ------------------ * Fri Nov 12 2004 Warren Togami 12:0.50.5-4 - rebuild * Wed Oct 06 2004 Than Ngo 12:0.50.5-3.fc3 - add obsolete aspell-config * Mon Aug 23 2004 Adrian Havill 12:0.50.5-2.fc3 - fix doc dir (#128140) (don't flag aspell doc stuff with the %doc flag due to rpm badness) bash-3.0-21 ----------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Tim Waugh 3.0-21 - Added code to /etc/skel/.bash_logout to support the gpm selection buffer invalidation on virtual terminals (bug #115493). compat-db-4.2.52-1 ------------------ * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 4.2.52-7 - apply patch.4.1.25.2. - retire db-4.2.52 with patch.4.2.52.{1,2} into compat-db. - nuke db2 and db-3.3.11. - nuke db1 as well. cyrus-sasl-2.1.20-3 ------------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 2.1.20-3 - rebuild against db-4.3.21. * Thu Nov 11 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 2.1.20-2 - build with mysql-devel instead of mysqlclient10 db4-4.3.21-1 ------------ * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 4.3.21-1 - upgrade to 4.3.21, no db4-java for the moment again again. gaim-1:1.0.3-1 -------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Warren Togami 1.0.3-1 - 1.0.3 another bugfix release gamin-0.0.17-1 -------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Daniel Veillard 0.0.17-1 - more #132354 chasing and cleanups - fix of #135417 gdm-1:2.6.0.5-8 --------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Ray Strode 1:2.6.0.5-8 - Sort session list so that default session comes out on top (fixes bug 107324) glibc-2.3.3-77 -------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-77 - update from CVS - speedup regex on palindromes (BZ #429) - fix NPTL set{,e,re,res}[ug]id, so that even if making process less priviledged all threads change their credentials successfully gnome-libs-1:1.4.1.2.90-45 -------------------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Bill Nottingham - 1:1.4.1.2.90-45 - re-package db1 libs gnome-panel-2.8.1-5 ------------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Mark McLoughlin - 2.8.1-5 - Use /apps/panel for configuration so that homedir sharing with previous versions works reasonably well. This is the location upstream is using from GNOME 2.10 onwards. - Install old pager.schemas and tasklist.schemas so that old configurations which reference the old schema names continue to work hpoj-0.91-10 ------------ * Fri Nov 12 2004 Tim Waugh 0.91-10 - David Mosberger patch to avoid packing structs with fn ptrs. httpd-2.0.52-4 -------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 2.0.52-4 - rebuild against db-4.3-21. libselinux-1.19.1-2 ------------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19.1-2 - Fix output of getsebool. nfs-utils-1.0.6-43 ------------------ * Thu Nov 11 2004 Steve Dickson - Replaced a memcopy with explicit assignments in getquotainfo() of rquotad to fix potential overflow that can occur on 64bit machines. (bz 138068) * Mon Nov 08 2004 Steve Dickson - Updated to latest sourceforge code - Updated to latest CITIT nfs4 patches pam-0.77-67 ----------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Jeff Johnson 0.77-67 - rebuild against db-4.3.21. parted-1.6.16-2 --------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.6.16-2 - add patch from Matt Domsch to fix consistency of GPT disk labels with the EFI specification for disks > 2TB (#138480) - understand the new Sun UFS partition ID - merge the new geometry probing from CVS to see if that helps the assertions people are seeing (#138419) perl-3:5.8.5-10 --------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 3:5.8.5-10 - rebuild against db-4.3.21. postfix-2:2.1.5-4 ----------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 2:2.1.5-4 - rebuild against db-4.3.21. - remove Requires: db4, the soname linkage dependency is sufficient. postgresql-odbc-7.3-9 --------------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Tom Lane 7.3-9 - back-port 64-bit fixes from current upstream (bug #139004) python-2.4-0.b2.4 ----------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 2.4-0.b2.4 - rebuild against db-4.3.21. rpm-4.3.3-1 ----------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Jeff Johnson - bump micro version. - make peace with libtool-1.5.10 and automake-1.9.3. - python: add python 2.4 support. - selinux: use rpm_execcon, not execv, to run scriptlets (#136848). - fix: segfault on --verifydb (#138589). rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041113 --------------------------- ruby-1.8.1-10 ------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 1.8.1-10 - rebuild against db-4.3.21. selinux-policy-strict-1.19.1-8 ------------------------------ * Fri Nov 12 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-8 - tighten security on squirrelmail * Fri Nov 12 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-7 - Fixes to get squirrelmail working in targeted policy selinux-policy-targeted-1.19.1-8 -------------------------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-8 - Fixes to tighten up squirrelmail * Fri Nov 12 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-7 - Fixes to get squirrelmail working in targeted policy * Thu Nov 11 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-6 - Remove unwanted te files to make policy smaller sip-4.1-2 --------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Than Ngo 4.1-2 - rebuild against python 2.4 vte-0.11.11-14 -------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Ray Strode 0.11.11-14 - Workaround bug 134300 by removing the initiate-hilite-mouse-tracking capability from vte. zlib-1.2.2.1-1 -------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Jeff Johnson 1.2.2.1-1 - upgrade to 1.2.2.1. From buildsys at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 12:57:47 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:57:47 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041114 changes Message-ID: <200411151257.iAFCvlU27621@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: PyXML-0.8.4-0.cvs20041111.1 --------------------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 0.8.4-0.cvs20041111.1 - Update to current CVS snapshot, Python 2.4b2 requires unreleased PyXML-0.8.4 - Backport xml.sax.saxutils fix from Python 2.4b2 apr-util-0.9.4-19 ----------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 0.9.4-19 - actually explicitly check for and detect db-4.3. httpd-2.0.52-5 -------------- * Sat Nov 13 2004 Jeff Johnson 2.0.52-5 - rebuild against db-4.3.21 aware apr-util. libtabe-0.2.6-12 ---------------- * Sat Nov 13 2004 Leon Ho - fix db->stat() for db4 4.3 - rebuilt for db4-4.3 rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041114 --------------------------- selinux-policy-strict-1.19.1-9 ------------------------------ * Sat Nov 13 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-9 - Minor fixes - Add postgresql.te to targeted selinux-policy-targeted-1.19.1-9 -------------------------------- * Sat Nov 13 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-9 - Minor fixes - Add postgresql.te to targeted sendmail-8.13.1-2.2 ------------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 8.13.1-2.2 - rebuild against db-4.3.21. subversion-1.1.1-4 ------------------ * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 1.1.1-4 - rebuild against db-4.3.21. - x86_64: don't fail "make check" while diagnosing db-4.3.21 upgrade. system-config-securitylevel-1.4.18-1 ------------------------------------ * Sat Nov 13 2004 Dan Walsh 1.4.18-1 - Change to match getsebool syntax thunderbird-0:0.9-2 ------------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Christopher Aillon 0.9.0-2 - Rebuild to fix file chooser From buildsys at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 14:01:20 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:01:20 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041115 changes Message-ID: <200411151401.iAFE1Ka02137@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: firefox-0:1.0-2 --------------- * Fri Nov 12 2004 Christopher Aillon 0:1.0-2 - Fix livemarks icon issue. (#138989) libuser-0.53-1 -------------- * Sun Nov 14 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 0.53-1 - Support UID and GID values larger than LONG_MAX (#124967) - Fix updating of groups after user renaming in lusermod - Allow setting a shadow password even if the current shadow password is invalid (#131180) - Add lu_{user,group}_unlock_nonempty (#86414); module interface ABI has changed - Miscellaneous bug and memory leak fixes rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041115 --------------------------- From cknowlton at science.edu Mon Nov 15 15:10:17 2004 From: cknowlton at science.edu (Carlos Knowlton) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:10:17 -0600 Subject: stateless-snapshooter problems Message-ID: <4198C6D9.5080708@science.edu> Hi, I trying to install Stateless Linux on a computer lab using FC3 (release version). I've been following the tutorial, and it's been a breeze so far, but now I'm at the "4. Creating a snapshot of a prototype system" section. While attempting to create a snapshot, I get the following message: " [root at localhost user]# stateless-snapshooter -n -p DemoSystem Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/share/stateless/stateless-snapshooter.py", line 142, in ? snapshooter.get_next_id (protosystem)) File "/usr/share/stateless/snapshooter.py", line 71, in get_next_id for snapshot in list_snapshots (protosystem): File "/usr/share/stateless/snapshooter.py", line 62, in list_snapshots srv = get_readonly_service () File "/usr/share/stateless/snapshooter.py", line 50, in get_readonly_service return LDAPUtils.StatelessService (LDAPUtils.ReadOnlyDirectory (cfg)) File "/usr/share/stateless/LDAPUtils.py", line 81, in __init__ Directory.__init__ (self, cfg) File "/usr/share/stateless/LDAPUtils.py", line 65, in __init__ self.uri = cfg.get_ldap_uri () File "/usr/share/stateless/config.py", line 43, in get_ldap_uri server = self["LDAP_SERVER"].lstrip() AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'lstrip' " Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Are there any undocumented dependencies to the "stateless-servers" package that I should may be missing? Thanks! Carlos Knowlton From dwmw2 at infradead.org Mon Nov 15 15:30:45 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:30:45 +0000 Subject: Java status for FC4? In-Reply-To: <1100219128l.6203l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100196904.17274.58.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> <1100219128l.6203l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1100532645.8191.6938.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 00:25 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > A JRE in the distro would solve that issue, so long as it has a java > plugin that works. This also would be desirable for PPC machines, as > Blackdown doesn't (to my knowledge) provide a ppc JRE. Blackdown has a 1.3.1 JRE for ppc32; IBM has 1.4.2 for both ppc32 and ppc64. I'm not sure if the IBM one has a browser plugin though. -- dwmw2 From markmc at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 15:52:55 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:52:55 +0000 Subject: stateless-snapshooter problems In-Reply-To: <4198C6D9.5080708@science.edu> References: <4198C6D9.5080708@science.edu> Message-ID: <1100533975.9029.4.camel@blaa> Hi, On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 09:10 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: > Hi, > > I trying to install Stateless Linux on a computer lab using FC3 (release > version). I've been following the tutorial, and it's been a breeze so > far, but now I'm at the "4. Creating a snapshot of a prototype system" > section. While attempting to create a snapshot, I get the following > message: > " > File "/usr/share/stateless/config.py", line 43, in get_ldap_uri > server = self["LDAP_SERVER"].lstrip() > AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'lstrip' > " > Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Are there any undocumented dependencies > to the "stateless-servers" package that I should may be missing? Looks like you need to set LDAP_SERVER in /etc/sysconfig/stateless. Did we miss documenting that in the tutorial? Cheers, Mark. From gemi at bluewin.ch Mon Nov 15 16:01:40 2004 From: gemi at bluewin.ch (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Milmeister) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:01:40 +0100 Subject: mime types and file icons Message-ID: <1100534500.13608.2.camel@scriabin.tannenrauch.ch> As I understand it, the new mime type system uses /usr/share/mime and /usr/share/applications. Are the former locations /usr/share/mime- info and /usr/share/application-registry now irrelevant. Previously the icon for a file type was set in .keys file, but I don't see how to do it in the new system. From rdieter at math.unl.edu Mon Nov 15 16:05:10 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:05:10 -0600 Subject: mime types and file icons In-Reply-To: <1100534500.13608.2.camel@scriabin.tannenrauch.ch> References: <1100534500.13608.2.camel@scriabin.tannenrauch.ch> Message-ID: <4198D3B6.70609@math.unl.edu> G?rard Milmeister wrote: > As I understand it, the new mime type system uses /usr/share/mime ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Shouldn't that be /usr/share/mimelnk? -- Rex From gemi at bluewin.ch Mon Nov 15 16:20:03 2004 From: gemi at bluewin.ch (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Milmeister) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:20:03 +0100 Subject: mime types and file icons In-Reply-To: <4198D3B6.70609@math.unl.edu> References: <1100534500.13608.2.camel@scriabin.tannenrauch.ch> <4198D3B6.70609@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1100535603.27854.0.camel@scriabin.tannenrauch.ch> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 10:05 -0600, Rex Dieter wrote: > G?rard Milmeister wrote: > > As I understand it, the new mime type system uses /usr/share/mime > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Shouldn't that be /usr/share/mimelnk? > > -- Rex These are are for KDE. It seems that KDE will use /usr/share/mime to in the future. From rdieter at math.unl.edu Mon Nov 15 16:24:26 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:24:26 -0600 Subject: mime types and file icons In-Reply-To: <1100535603.27854.0.camel@scriabin.tannenrauch.ch> References: <1100534500.13608.2.camel@scriabin.tannenrauch.ch> <4198D3B6.70609@math.unl.edu> <1100535603.27854.0.camel@scriabin.tannenrauch.ch> Message-ID: <4198D83A.7090103@math.unl.edu> G?rard Milmeister wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 10:05 -0600, Rex Dieter wrote: >>G?rard Milmeister wrote: >>>As I understand it, the new mime type system uses /usr/share/mime ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>Shouldn't that be /usr/share/mimelnk? > These are are for KDE. It seems that KDE will use /usr/share/mime to in > the future. OK, I see now: http://freedesktop.org/Standards/shared-mime-info-spec -- Rex From cknowlton at science.edu Mon Nov 15 16:31:01 2004 From: cknowlton at science.edu (Carlos Knowlton) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:31:01 -0600 Subject: stateless-snapshooter problems In-Reply-To: <1100533975.9029.4.camel@blaa> References: <4198C6D9.5080708@science.edu> <1100533975.9029.4.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <4198D9C5.7060001@science.edu> Mark McLoughlin wrote: >Hi, > >On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 09:10 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: > > >>Hi, >> >>I trying to install Stateless Linux on a computer lab using FC3 (release >>version). I've been following the tutorial, and it's been a breeze so >>far, but now I'm at the "4. Creating a snapshot of a prototype system" >>section. While attempting to create a snapshot, I get the following >>message: >>" >> >> > > > >> File "/usr/share/stateless/config.py", line 43, in get_ldap_uri >> server = self["LDAP_SERVER"].lstrip() >>AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'lstrip' >>" >>Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Are there any undocumented dependencies >>to the "stateless-servers" package that I should may be missing? >> >> > > Looks like you need to set LDAP_SERVER in /etc/sysconfig/stateless. Did >we miss documenting that in the tutorial? > >Cheers, >Mark. > > > Nope, I somehow got my /etc/sysconfig/stateless reset back to rpmdefault. When that was fixed, I got another error. Chalk another on up for new user stupidity. (It helps if the folder I mounted the prototype image on has the same name that I gave to LDAP. :^) Thanks for the tip! Regards, Carlos Knowlton From ra at ra.is Mon Nov 15 17:13:58 2004 From: ra at ra.is (Richard Allen) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:13:58 +0000 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <4198A017.5010407@feuerpokemon.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041115125651.44dd5faa@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100520306.2936.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <4198A017.5010407@feuerpokemon.de> Message-ID: <20041115171358.GA16367@ra.is> On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 01:24:55PM +0100, dragoran wrote: > >nfs mounted dirs ... > > > > > but there should be an option to let it be done in the background .... > NFS mounts have the "bg" option. bg If the first NFS mount attempt times out, retry the mount in the background. After a mount operation is backgrounded, all subsequent mounts on the same NFS server will be backgrounded immediately, without first attempting the mount. A missing mount point is treated as a timeout, to allow for nested NFS mounts. -- Rikki. -- RHCE, RHCX, HP-UX Certified Administrator. -- Solaris 7 Certified Systems and Network Administrator. Bell Labs Unix -- Reach out and grep someone. Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. From dima at snaiper.no-ip.com Mon Nov 15 16:55:09 2004 From: dima at snaiper.no-ip.com (dima) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:55:09 +0200 Subject: FC3, harddisc install and reiserfs. Message-ID: <002901c4cb33$dee867c0$2301000a@snaiperclient> How I may install fc3 if my iso images placed on reiserfs partition? I was burned 2 disc -> cd5 (rescue) and cd1 (install). I have 4 linux partitions. /dev/hdb5 (boot, reiserfs) -> format /dev/hdb6 (/, reiserfs) -> format /dev/hdb7 (/temp, reiserfs) -> do not format (isos placed on /fedora/iso/{FC3-...cd1.iso and etc}) /dev/hdb8 (swap) -> format. First try. 1. Boot from cd5, boot: linux vga=792... bla bla bla askmethod reiserfs selinux=0 2. In "installation type" menu I was select "install from harddisk". 3. Select /dev/hdb7, and write in the path "/fedora/iso/" (with/without first and last slashes) 4. Get error: "cannot find isos". 5. In console (alt+f2,f3) i saw messages: cannot mount partition, not ext2, not vfat. Second try. 1. Boot from cd1, boot: linux vga=792... bla bla bla askmethod reiserfs selinux=0 2. In "installation type" menu I was select "install from harddisk". 3. Select /dev/hdb7, and write in the path "/fedora/iso/" (with/without first and last slashes) 4. Get error: "cannot find isos". 5. In console (alt+f2,f3) i saw messages: cannot mount partition, not ext2, not vfat. Third try. 1. Boot from cd1, boot: linux vga=792... bla bla bla reiserfs selinux=0 2. Do all steps, make partitions, select packages. 3. When installation wants cd2 (disk was ejected), goto console and write: cd mnt mkdir hdb7 mount -t reiserfs /dev/hdb7 /mnt/hdb7 cd hdb7 cd fedora cd iso mount -o loop FC3-i386...cd2.iso /mnt/source get error about unknown loop devices. How install fc3 from reiserfs partitions, without burning all 4 disks? In previsious installations (fc2, fc3), I was may install from isos that placed on reiserfs discs. Thanx. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cknowlton at science.edu Mon Nov 15 17:21:39 2004 From: cknowlton at science.edu (Carlos Knowlton) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:21:39 -0600 Subject: stateless wants pxelinux.0 Message-ID: <4198E5A3.5020609@science.edu> Okay, next question: (and remember, this is in the name of helping stateless (and clueless) newbies everywhere, so bear with me =) I have stateless linux installed according with the tutorial , and I'm attempting to do a PXE boot on a diskless machine. The PC is able to get an IP address, and then tries to get "pxelinux.0", and fails with a PXE-T01 and PXE-E3B. "pxelinux.0 isn't even located in the /tftpboot directory anywhere. so I add it to where dhcpd.conf says it should be, in "/tftpboot/linux-install/pxelinux.0", what's next? how do I set up /tftpboot/linux-install/pxelinux.cfg/*"? I probably missed something in the tutorial, but either way, any help is welcome! BTW, I love this concept of read-only root. The whole "Stateless Linux" scheme is brilliant! I can hardly wait to actually get it working! :) Best Regards, Carlos From pjones at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 17:24:43 2004 From: pjones at redhat.com (Peter Jones) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:24:43 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1100539483.11585.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 18:35 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > given the 7 second disk read time... 10 seconds is a bit unrealistic. > One of the critical paths will be getting an IP address and mounting the > /home dir over nfs... ethernet negotiation can easily be 10 seconds > already with gige, and DHCP is depending on that to complete before it > can get a lease. But if you're stalling on network I/O, we could run the things that don't need the network to be there at the same time. There's enough of it that I don't think dhcp should actually delay booting, if it's async. Of course, if you're using NetworkManager, it already is... but there're some kinks in that that still need smoothing over, like the part of ntpd's initscript that does the initial clock sync never getting run while the network is up. -- Peter From pjones at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 17:27:00 2004 From: pjones at redhat.com (Peter Jones) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:27:00 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100520306.2936.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041115125651.44dd5faa@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100520306.2936.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1100539620.11585.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 13:05 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 12:56 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > > Hi. > > > > Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > > > > given the 7 second disk read time... 10 seconds is a bit unrealistic. > > > One of the critical paths will be getting an IP address and mounting the > > > /home dir over nfs... ethernet negotiation can easily be 10 seconds > > > already with gige, and DHCP is depending on that to complete before it > > > can get a lease. > > > > WRT DHCP: why does FC wait in the foreground to get an IP? Is there a > > magic switch I haven't found yet to make that a background process? > > nfs mounted dirs ... That's a pretty good argument for initscripts having dependencies, rather than *just* a position in the list. -- Peter From stfn at gmx.net Mon Nov 15 17:26:52 2004 From: stfn at gmx.net (Stefan Hoelldampf) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:26:52 +0100 Subject: logwatch: patch for zz-disk_space In-Reply-To: <1100513521.3367.13.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> References: <1100513521.3367.13.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> Message-ID: <4198E6DC.2020502@gmx.net> Dario Lesca wrote: > > This patch for logwatch is usefull when there are device whit long name > into the first column: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138285 seems to describe the same problem. Regards, Stefan From Frank at lists.sytes.net Mon Nov 15 17:29:10 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:29:10 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? Message-ID: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Hallo, how about the 'Error: *** .text refers to 00000XXX' Descriptions ... is this interessting for the builded Kernel ... yes rpmbuild does the Job very good Error: ./init/initramfs.o .text refers to 00000fc2 R_386_PC32 .init.text Error: ./init/initramfs.o .text refers to 00000ff4 R_386_PC32 .init.text Error: ./init/initramfs.o .text refers to 000013c4 R_386_PC32 .init.text Error: ./init/main.o .text refers to 00000086 R_386_PC32 .init.text Error: ./mm/bootmem.o .altinstructions refers to 00000000 R_386_32 .init.text Error: ./mm/slab.o .text refers to 0000059e R_386_32 .init.data Error: ./mm/slab.o .data refers to 00000138 R_386_32 .init.text Error: ./mm/slab.o .altinstructions refers to 00000000 R_386_32 .init.text Error: ./mm/slab.o .altinstructions refers to 0000000c R_386_32 .init.text Error: ./net/ipv4/netfilter/ip_nat_rule.o .data refers to 00000028 R_386_32 .init.data Done more detailled as Attachement Greetings Frank -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bug.txt.gz Type: application/x-gzip Size: 6570 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markmc at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 17:50:57 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:50:57 +0000 Subject: stateless wants pxelinux.0 In-Reply-To: <4198E5A3.5020609@science.edu> References: <4198E5A3.5020609@science.edu> Message-ID: <1100541057.9029.14.camel@blaa> Hi, On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 11:21 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: > Okay, next question: (and remember, this is in the name of helping > stateless (and clueless) newbies everywhere, so bear with me =) > > I have stateless linux installed according with the tutorial > , and I'm attempting > to do a PXE boot on a diskless machine. The PC is able to get an IP > address, and then tries to get "pxelinux.0", and fails with a PXE-T01 > and PXE-E3B. "pxelinux.0 isn't even located in the /tftpboot directory > anywhere. so I add it to where dhcpd.conf says it should be, in > "/tftpboot/linux-install/pxelinux.0", what's next? how do I set up > /tftpboot/linux-install/pxelinux.cfg/*"? I think as long as you have tftp-server and syslinux installed it should be there. Although, now that I look, I'm not sure how it gets there - neither package owns it and pxelinux just installs it in /usr/lib. Cheers, Mark. From walters at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 17:53:52 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:53:52 -0500 Subject: glibc-2.3.3-76 problem starting httpd In-Reply-To: <200411142019.03992@x-face> References: <200411142019.03992@x-face> Message-ID: <1100541233.30684.15.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 20:19 -0500, Salane KIng wrote: > service httpd start > Starting httpd: /usr/sbin/httpd: error while loading shared libraries: > librt.so.1: failed to map segment from shared object: Permission denied Try this: restorecon /lib/librt*.so* Somehow the files got mislabeled. This seems to be a problem popping up occasionally. My guess is it's a prelink bug. From jakub at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 17:59:17 2004 From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:59:17 -0500 Subject: glibc-2.3.3-76 problem starting httpd In-Reply-To: <1100541233.30684.15.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <200411142019.03992@x-face> <1100541233.30684.15.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <20041115175917.GN10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 12:53:52PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 20:19 -0500, Salane KIng wrote: > > service httpd start > > Starting httpd: /usr/sbin/httpd: error while loading shared libraries: > > librt.so.1: failed to map segment from shared object: Permission denied > > Try this: > > restorecon /lib/librt*.so* > > Somehow the files got mislabeled. This seems to be a problem popping up Well, unless you have LD_ASSUME_KERNEL={2.2.5,2.4.0} in the environment (or anything in that range), you are not loading /lib/librt*.so*, but likely /lib/tls/librt*.so*. Before restorecon, it would be good to see your ls -lZ /lib/tls > occasionally. My guess is it's a prelink bug. Prove it ;) Seriously, unless prelink printed Could not [gs]et security context error, I don't see how that could have happened if it were a prelink bug. There is just one place where it renames a newly created file over the old one, and it is immediately preceeded by setting security context for the newly created file from the old one. Jakub From pjones at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 18:02:25 2004 From: pjones at redhat.com (Peter Jones) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:02:25 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041115074818.GA2045@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> <1100374877.8404.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100389369.5074.15.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041115053549.GG24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041115074818.GA2045@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100541745.11585.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 08:48 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 12:35:49AM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Bah. > > > > Just do the readahead on the first boot., and then reorient your disk blocks > > in the desktop background thereafter. :) > > but in a parallel startup situation, the order in which you read stuff no > longer is deterministic... Why not? Just because you're running more than one script at once, that doesn't mean they can't still be ordered. That is, we still don't want to start nfs until the network is up, but is there any compelling reason not to start up irqbalance, pcmcia, bluetooth, hidd, lm_sensors, smartd, acpid, messagebus, or haldaemon before then? > so reordering no longer has the effect you expect it to have.. That doesn't have to be the case; we don't need to run _everything_ in parallel, we just need to delay whatever depends on our most latent chunks, and run other things while we're stalling. -- Peter From walters at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 18:04:23 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:04:23 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100539483.11585.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100539483.11585.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100541863.30684.17.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 12:24 -0500, Peter Jones wrote: > On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 18:35 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > > given the 7 second disk read time... 10 seconds is a bit unrealistic. > > One of the critical paths will be getting an IP address and mounting the > > /home dir over nfs... ethernet negotiation can easily be 10 seconds > > already with gige, and DHCP is depending on that to complete before it > > can get a lease. > > But if you're stalling on network I/O, we could run the things that > don't need the network to be there at the same time. There's enough of > it that I don't think dhcp should actually delay booting, if it's async. > > Of course, if you're using NetworkManager, it already is... but there're > some kinks in that that still need smoothing over, like the part of > ntpd's initscript that does the initial clock sync never getting run > while the network is up. I think that in a NetworkManager world, you want NetworkManager to control ntpd entirely. And probably a number of other services too, at least by default. From walters at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 18:06:55 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:06:55 -0500 Subject: glibc-2.3.3-76 problem starting httpd In-Reply-To: <20041115175917.GN10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411142019.03992@x-face> <1100541233.30684.15.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20041115175917.GN10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100542016.30684.21.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 12:59 -0500, Jakub Jelinek wrote: > On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 12:53:52PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 20:19 -0500, Salane KIng wrote: > > > service httpd start > > > Starting httpd: /usr/sbin/httpd: error while loading shared libraries: > > > librt.so.1: failed to map segment from shared object: Permission denied > > > > Try this: > > > > restorecon /lib/librt*.so* > > > > Somehow the files got mislabeled. This seems to be a problem popping up > > Well, unless you have LD_ASSUME_KERNEL={2.2.5,2.4.0} in the environment > (or anything in that range), you are not loading /lib/librt*.so*, but likely > /lib/tls/librt*.so*. > Before restorecon, it would be good to see your ls -lZ /lib/tls Good point. > > occasionally. My guess is it's a prelink bug. > > Prove it ;) I don't have proof yet, but I randomly saw a library getting mislabeled on my home machine too, and I'm pretty sure it happened overnight. I don't remember installing any RPMs. This led me to suspect prelink. > Seriously, unless prelink printed Could not [gs]et security context > error, Where would that go? syslog? > I don't see how that could have happened if it were a prelink bug. > There is just one place where it renames a newly created file over the old > one, and it is immediately preceeded by setting security context for the > newly created file from the old one. Ok. From dravet at calumet.purdue.edu Mon Nov 15 18:08:12 2004 From: dravet at calumet.purdue.edu (Jason Dravet) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:08:12 -0600 Subject: Requests for FC4 Message-ID: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> I would just try to convert as many programs over to the new interfaces. I am tired of seeing messages like: GtkDeprecationWarning: gtk.mainloop is deprecated and using a deprecated SCSI ioctl, please convert it to SG_IO. Yes there are bugzilla entries for this. Tell everyone FC5 will not ship with the old X font server. Maybe switch from using initrd to initramfs? Start to get rid of the dead wood. Also passing resolution=800x512 on the command line only crashes the X server so I am forced to use a text install. Since I have to use a text install, the xorg.conf contains the wrong information about the monitor and I have to boot into single user mode to copy a working xorg.conf over the old one. It would be nice for this to work properly. Yes there is a bugzilla about this. Please try to get the main distribution down to 1 or 2 CDs. At the rate FC is growing I think FC4 will be 5 CDs. Maybe consider breaking core into server and desktop groups. I think most sysadmins don't install Gnome games or openoffice on a webserver. You need X windows because the Oracle installer requires it. Please include a better firewall configuration tool. The current one is good for only basic firewalls, but I need something that allows me to open specific ports from specific IPs, log all traffic except for this port, or log all traffic on this port only, etc. Someone from RedHat really needs to go through bugzilla. I have been reading the old threads about this. I hope something happens soon. Anaconda really needs to list all packages during the selection part of the install (this goes for text based and graphical installs) or maybe have an advanced menu for experienced users. For example I don't have isdn, so I don't want the isdn packages installed. However there is no place to uncheck a ISDN box during the package selection phase, or am I not looking hard enough. Also a description about each package would be nice. Also, I uncheck a couple of packages that I know have packages depending on them before the install, the checking dependencies phase does not tell me anything is being added, yet those packages are installed. All I am asking for is please tell me when the installer is adding a package because of a dependency so if I want I can go back and tell anaconda to not install that package. I would have delayed the release one at most two weeks. Firefox has had their release date on their website for about month. I would have delayed the release to include the 1.0 release. This extra week would have given people time to further test KDE 3.3.1 so it too could be included in the FC3 release. I am aware of the 'if you keep delaying it will never be released' argument, but with 2 major packages being updated within a week of release makes me think it was released a little prematurely. I use gnome myself, but as someone who uses dial up, I really don't want to see 50 packages being released the first day or two after a release. Just my $0.02. All in all FC3 is a pretty good release. If I had to give it a grade, it would be a B. Jason From michael at insitesinc.com Mon Nov 15 18:09:11 2004 From: michael at insitesinc.com (Michael Favia) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:09:11 -0600 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100520306.2936.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041115125651.44dd5faa@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100520306.2936.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <4198F0C7.9030900@insitesinc.com> Arjan van de Ven wrote: >On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 12:56 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > > >>WRT DHCP: why does FC wait in the foreground to get an IP? Is there a >>magic switch I haven't found yet to make that a background process? >> >> > >nfs mounted dirs ... > > A dependency based init system that registers the necessary devices, services, and paths (all known as "entities" from here forward) for proper startup for a service seems to be an elegant solution that provides enough information to facilitate the decision making process for the init process. The idea of dependency based inits without specifying what each service is actually needs and provides is always going to yield no improvement because it doesnt attack the real granularity of the problem. (e.g. the example above really needs a directory provided by a NFS mount not the NFS service itself so checking for the availability of that path would test the real necessity of adding network infrastructure to the dep list). Sometime you require actual services (hald), certain devices (/dev/video0) or maybe just particular paths (/home/myUsername) regardless the point is the same. Required/requested entities are registered when the service begins its initialization and provided entities are registered upon its completion. In case a service is queued up without its proper dep entities it will wait until they are provided or the init process is complete upon which they will error out. Once they are located it will add the service responsible for providing the required entity to its registered list of entity deps so next time the boot is more streamlined. Because the registered entity dep list knows which services provide particular entities (because services register the entities they provide). It can easily recognize when a registered dep is no longer necessary and can remove it from the dep list for the next reboot. This dynamic relationship might increase the time for any single boot early on if poorly configured by default but will decrease the average time for the boot process with each restart. It also evolves when required entities change how they are provided. I acknowledge that i am grossly unfamiliar with a large portion of the startup process but i ask that you attempt to find the benefits of such a system and try to mitigate the detrimental effects before you emphasize its shortcomings. I'm probably missing entity types and oversimplifying the tasks but it just makes sense that if we want these dynamic environments to be as efficient as possible we have to provide them with the information to make that decision in the first place. No "default" will work for everyone and i think if done properly the overhead of a dynamic system can be a net gain for all if it isnt "reconfigured" every time but instead cached until next boot which ensures proper function and the ability to undo any negative changes if necessary. Best Wishes, -mf From otaylor at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 18:06:05 2004 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:06:05 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041115171358.GA16367@ra.is> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041115125651.44dd5faa@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100520306.2936.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <4198A017.5010407@feuerpokemon.de> <20041115171358.GA16367@ra.is> Message-ID: <1100541965.8404.126.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 17:13 +0000, Richard Allen wrote: > On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 01:24:55PM +0100, dragoran wrote: > > > >nfs mounted dirs ... > > > > > > > > but there should be an option to let it be done in the background .... > > > > NFS mounts have the "bg" option. > > bg If the first NFS mount attempt times out, retry the > mount in the background. After a mount operation is > backgrounded, all subsequent mounts on the same NFS > server will be backgrounded immediately, without first > attempting the mount. A missing mount point is treated > as a timeout, to allow for nested NFS mounts. This would work in the case where you the gdm prompt just sits there for 5 minutes until all the timeouts fire and the dirs mount. But doesn't really handle the case of a rapid login. What you really want is backgrounded: - When ethernet negotiation completes, immediately start getting a dhcp lease - When dhcp lease completes, immediately try to mount all mount points And when the user goes to log in, and we actually *need* the NFS mount, block until it completes. A lot of that is already there for the case of dynamic network connections later. Regards, Owen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jakub at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 18:11:02 2004 From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:11:02 -0500 Subject: glibc-2.3.3-76 problem starting httpd In-Reply-To: <1100542016.30684.21.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <200411142019.03992@x-face> <1100541233.30684.15.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20041115175917.GN10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100542016.30684.21.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <20041115181102.GO10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 01:06:55PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > Where would that go? syslog? No, /var/log/prelink.log. Jakub From pschobel at porchlight.ca Mon Nov 15 18:16:34 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:16:34 -0500 Subject: stateless problems Message-ID: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> i'm having a few problems with setting up stateless linux for the rsync-based cached instantiation model first of all, i couldn't get the post install script in the kickstart file to work. and i'm not sure why because i could not see any output from that script but i know that when the system would reboot, the stateless-client package would not be installed so i wrote my own post install ks script using bash so that it installs the stateless-client package - i also added some commands to populate the variables in the /etc/sysconfig/stateless file because after the package install, those values were set to default i'm pretty sure that this is not the way this is supposed to work, probably i missed something but nevertheless i got myself this far now my problem is getting the client to replicate the snapshop the original code in the post-install script was ### Now launch the real bootstrap sys.path.append ('/mnt/sysimage/usr/share/stateless/') import bootstrap bootstrap.run('aware-of-vacuity.boston.redhat.com', 'Test42') i don't know python and i don't really understand how this is 'supposed' to work i am trying to replicate the snapshot manually by running "python replicator.py update" but i am now getting errors about not being able to determine which root partition is in reserve [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# python replicator.py update /sbin/e2label: Attempt to read block from filesystem resulted in short read while trying to open /dev/hda4 Couldn't find valid filesystem superblock. /sbin/e2label: No such file or directory while trying to open /dev/hda6 Couldn't find valid filesystem superblock. Traceback (most recent call last): File "replicator.py", line 767, in ? update_client_on_cronjob_or_manual() File "replicator.py", line 737, in update_client_on_cronjob_or_manual repl = LiveReplicatorBackgroundUpdate() File "replicator.py", line 675, in __init__ Replicator.__init__ (self, ldap_dir, False) File "replicator.py", line 583, in __init__ self.root = Replicator.ClientPartitionRole(ROLE_ROOT, self.temp_dir_name, self) File "replicator.py", line 387, in __init__ self.locate_partitions() File "replicator.py", line 405, in locate_partitions raise PartitionError, "Could not determine which %s is in reserve"%self.get_name() __main__.PartitionError: Could not determine which root partition is in reserve i'm using FC3 release version my partition layout is as per the example [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# df -m Filesystem 1M-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on /dev/hda2 3027 632 2242 22% / /dev/hda1 99 9 86 9% /boot none 252 0 252 0% /dev/shm /dev/hda5 99 6 89 6% /reserve-boot /dev/hda3 3027 37 2837 2% /reserve-root [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# cat /etc/fstab # This file is edited by fstab-sync - see 'man fstab-sync' for details LABEL=/ / ext3 defaults 1 1 LABEL=/boot /boot ext3 defaults 1 2 none /dev/pts devpts gid=5,mode=620 0 0 none /dev/shm tmpfs defaults 0 0 none /proc proc defaults 0 0 LABEL=/reserve-boot /reserve-boot ext3 defaults 1 2 LABEL=/reserve-root /reserve-root ext3 defaults 1 2 none /sys sysfs defaults 0 0 any guidance here would be appreciated, Peter Schobel -- ######################### # ## ######################### # # Peter Schobel # # # Network Administrator # # # Porchlight.ca # # # Unlimited Internet # # # www.porchlight.ca ## ######################### From mherrick at corente.com Mon Nov 15 18:13:29 2004 From: mherrick at corente.com (Mike Herrick) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:13:29 -0500 Subject: Stateless Linux experience... Message-ID: <200411151814.iAFIE23F015948@mx1.redhat.com> Thought I'd give this a try. Still in progress, but a couple of pointers to pass on to anyone who wants to give it a go. 1) First, make sure you get the latest source from CVS. There are a couple of bugs in parsing arguments that have been fixed (as noted in https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg00233 .html). 2) Even with the latest code, there is a typo on line 96 of stateless-snapshooter.py ("--protosytem" should be "--protosystem"). 3) I tried this on a machine that initially had 128MB of RAM. When I got to the "stateless-snapshooter -n -p DemoSystem" step, I ran out of memory: "device-mapper ioctl cmd 9 failed: Cannot allocate memory". I added 128MB of RAM and still had the same problem, so I stopped some non-essential services (httpd, sendmail, etc.). Then I was able to continue. 4) Because I needed to reboot to add RAM, all of the files that I had copied from the 'test' system to /srv/stateless/protosystem/DemoSystem seemed to have been lost. It wasn't until after I had re-copied them from the test machine that I remembered the "mount /dev/mapper/VGStateless-DemoSystem /srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem" command in one of the previous steps. Moral of the story: add it to the /etc/fstab so it'll be automatically remounted on reboots. 5) In the /etc/dhcpd.conf file, it refers to "linux-install/pxelinux.0" as the PXE bootable image, but when the PXE client connects this file is not found. I copied /usr/lib/syslinux/pxelinux.0 (from syslinux RPM) to /tftpboot/linux-install. 6) Because of the RAM problem above, I'm not sure that subsequent invocations of "stateless-snapshooter -n -p DemoSystem" actually worked as designed. When I execute "stateless-snapshooter -l", I get: Protosystems: DemoSystem But it doesn't say anything about snapshots. This makes me nervous. What should the output look like? 7) When I run "python statelessGenPXEConfig.py" after adding the MAC addresses, I get "Unable to get NFS location of DemoSystem snapshot DemoSystem-1". I'm not exactly sure where it's supposed to have picked up the NFS path definition from. It appears to me from browsing some of the code that somewhere along the line I was supposed to have executed "stateless-servers", but I didn't see anything about that in the documentation. Since the statelssGenPXEConfig.py script failed to generate any PXE configuration, I generated my own by hand: DEFAULT stateless/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-1/vmlinuz initrd=stateless/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-1/initrd.img NFSROOT=6.6.6.1:/srv/stateless/snapshots/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-1 I then added the following to /etc/exports: /srv/stateless/snapshots/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-1 *(ro,async) With these changes, I was able to get a machine to boot from the snapshot, but there were many errors/warnings stemming from having a read-only root (and /var) filesystem on a diskless client. When I finally got the machine to boot, it wouldn't let me login! I suspect some read-only root problem during the login process that prevented the login process from completing. Mike. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cknowlton at science.edu Mon Nov 15 18:16:48 2004 From: cknowlton at science.edu (Carlos Knowlton) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:16:48 -0600 Subject: stateless wants pxelinux.0 In-Reply-To: <1100541057.9029.14.camel@blaa> References: <4198E5A3.5020609@science.edu> <1100541057.9029.14.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <4198F290.7090402@science.edu> Mark McLoughlin wrote: >Hi, > >On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 11:21 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: > > >>Okay, next question: (and remember, this is in the name of helping >>stateless (and clueless) newbies everywhere, so bear with me =) >> >>I have stateless linux installed according with the tutorial >>, and I'm attempting >>to do a PXE boot on a diskless machine. The PC is able to get an IP >>address, and then tries to get "pxelinux.0", and fails with a PXE-T01 >>and PXE-E3B. "pxelinux.0 isn't even located in the /tftpboot directory >>anywhere. so I add it to where dhcpd.conf says it should be, in >>"/tftpboot/linux-install/pxelinux.0", what's next? how do I set up >>/tftpboot/linux-install/pxelinux.cfg/*"? >> >> > > I think as long as you have tftp-server and syslinux installed it >should be there. Although, now that I look, I'm not sure how it gets >there - neither package owns it and pxelinux just installs it >in /usr/lib. > >Cheers, >Mark. > > > Hmm, well, I just realized that when I ran stateless-clients to add a client, that somehhow, it doesn't get added: " [root at Server ~]# stateless-clients --configuration DemoSystem --add 00:11:11:4A:8A:21 [root at Server ~]# stateless-clients -l Clients: [root at fsix-Server ~]# " could this be related? Regards, Carlos From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Mon Nov 15 18:37:25 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:37:25 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <1100543845.20016.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le lundi 15 novembre 2004 ? 12:08 -0600, Jason Dravet a ?crit : > I would just try to convert as many programs over to the new interfaces. I > am tired of seeing messages like: GtkDeprecationWarning: gtk.mainloop is > deprecated and using a deprecated SCSI ioctl, please convert it to SG_IO. > Yes there are bugzilla entries for this. > > Tell everyone FC5 will not ship with the old X font server. Please do. I never liked the old font system but I can't find words to say how much I've come to hate it within the past two years. Cheers, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From teetere at charter.net Mon Nov 15 18:40:29 2004 From: teetere at charter.net (Eric Teeter) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:40:29 -0600 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> Message-ID: Jason Your firewall problem, I use Shorewall at www.shorewall.net it has all that you could need. I used it instead of buy a device more because I am cheap. I use Webmin at http://www.webmin.com to configure it. But there are to many firewall products to include and please everyone. I wish you set the default desktop (i.e. KDE when you startup) in Anaconda as I install KDE instead of Gnome. -----Original Message----- From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Jason Dravet Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 12:08 PM To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com Subject: Requests for FC4 I would just try to convert as many programs over to the new interfaces. I am tired of seeing messages like: GtkDeprecationWarning: gtk.mainloop is deprecated and using a deprecated SCSI ioctl, please convert it to SG_IO. Yes there are bugzilla entries for this. Tell everyone FC5 will not ship with the old X font server. Maybe switch from using initrd to initramfs? Start to get rid of the dead wood. Also passing resolution=800x512 on the command line only crashes the X server so I am forced to use a text install. Since I have to use a text install, the xorg.conf contains the wrong information about the monitor and I have to boot into single user mode to copy a working xorg.conf over the old one. It would be nice for this to work properly. Yes there is a bugzilla about this. Please try to get the main distribution down to 1 or 2 CDs. At the rate FC is growing I think FC4 will be 5 CDs. Maybe consider breaking core into server and desktop groups. I think most sysadmins don't install Gnome games or openoffice on a webserver. You need X windows because the Oracle installer requires it. Please include a better firewall configuration tool. The current one is good for only basic firewalls, but I need something that allows me to open specific ports from specific IPs, log all traffic except for this port, or log all traffic on this port only, etc. Someone from RedHat really needs to go through bugzilla. I have been reading the old threads about this. I hope something happens soon. Anaconda really needs to list all packages during the selection part of the install (this goes for text based and graphical installs) or maybe have an advanced menu for experienced users. For example I don't have isdn, so I don't want the isdn packages installed. However there is no place to uncheck a ISDN box during the package selection phase, or am I not looking hard enough. Also a description about each package would be nice. Also, I uncheck a couple of packages that I know have packages depending on them before the install, the checking dependencies phase does not tell me anything is being added, yet those packages are installed. All I am asking for is please tell me when the installer is adding a package because of a dependency so if I want I can go back and tell anaconda to not install that package. I would have delayed the release one at most two weeks. Firefox has had their release date on their website for about month. I would have delayed the release to include the 1.0 release. This extra week would have given people time to further test KDE 3.3.1 so it too could be included in the FC3 release. I am aware of the 'if you keep delaying it will never be released' argument, but with 2 major packages being updated within a week of release makes me think it was released a little prematurely. I use gnome myself, but as someone who uses dial up, I really don't want to see 50 packages being released the first day or two after a release. Just my $0.02. All in all FC3 is a pretty good release. If I had to give it a grade, it would be a B. Jason -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 18:46:25 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:46:25 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041115074818.GA2045@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> <1100374877.8404.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100389369.5074.15.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041115053549.GG24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041115074818.GA2045@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041115184625.GB31077@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Arjan van de Ven (arjanv at redhat.com) said: > > Just do the readahead on the first boot., and then reorient your disk blocks > > in the desktop background thereafter. :) > > but in a parallel startup situation, the order in which you read stuff no > longer is deterministic... so reordering no longer has the effect you expect > it to have.. If you're going to do readahead, having it all contiguous is much better than having it scattered. Bill From cknowlton at science.edu Mon Nov 15 18:46:49 2004 From: cknowlton at science.edu (Carlos Knowlton) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:46:49 -0600 Subject: stateless wants pxelinux.0 In-Reply-To: <4198F290.7090402@science.edu> References: <4198E5A3.5020609@science.edu> <1100541057.9029.14.camel@blaa> <4198F290.7090402@science.edu> Message-ID: <4198F999.4010606@science.edu> Carlos Knowlton wrote: > Mark McLoughlin wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 11:21 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: >> >> >>> Okay, next question: (and remember, this is in the name of helping >>> stateless (and clueless) newbies everywhere, so bear with me =) >>> >>> I have stateless linux installed according with the tutorial >>> , and I'm >>> attempting to do a PXE boot on a diskless machine. The PC is able >>> to get an IP address, and then tries to get "pxelinux.0", and fails >>> with a PXE-T01 and PXE-E3B. "pxelinux.0 isn't even located in the >>> /tftpboot directory anywhere. so I add it to where dhcpd.conf says >>> it should be, in "/tftpboot/linux-install/pxelinux.0", what's >>> next? how do I set up /tftpboot/linux-install/pxelinux.cfg/*"? >>> >> >> >> I think as long as you have tftp-server and syslinux installed it >> should be there. Although, now that I look, I'm not sure how it gets >> there - neither package owns it and pxelinux just installs it >> in /usr/lib. >> >> Cheers, >> Mark. >> >> >> > Hmm, well, I just realized that when I ran stateless-clients to add a > client, that somehow, it doesn't get added: > " > [root at Server ~]# stateless-clients --configuration DemoSystem --add > 00:11:11:4A:8A:21 > [root at Server ~]# stateless-clients -l > Clients: > [root at fsix-Server ~]# > " > could this be related? > > > Regards, > Carlos > Okay, maybe it isn't related. Though, as someone mentioned earlier, the stateless-* utilities don't take long-form ("--") parameters. I got it working with "stateless-clients -c DemoSystem -a 00:11:11:4A:8A:21". Maybe the docs need to be updated (?). Anyway, what is the format of the files in the pxelinux.cfg/* files supposed to be? what parameters need to be passed to the kernel, etc. and how is this stuff supposed to be generated? Regards, Carlos From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 18:49:04 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:49:04 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <20041115184904.GC31077@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jason Dravet (dravet at calumet.purdue.edu) said: > Maybe switch from using initrd to initramfs? Well, that happened in FC3. :) Bill From davej at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 19:11:43 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:11:43 -0500 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 06:29:10PM +0100, Frank wrote: > Hallo, > > how about the 'Error: *** .text refers to 00000XXX' Descriptions ... is > this interessting for the builded Kernel ... yes rpmbuild does the Job > very good > > Error: ./init/initramfs.o .text refers to 00000fc2 > R_386_PC32 .init.text > Error: ./init/initramfs.o .text refers to 00000ff4 > R_386_PC32 .init.text > Error: ./init/initramfs.o .text refers to 000013c4 > R_386_PC32 .init.text > Error: ./init/main.o .text refers to 00000086 > R_386_PC32 .init.text > Error: ./mm/bootmem.o .altinstructions refers to 00000000 > R_386_32 .init.text > Error: ./mm/slab.o .text refers to 0000059e R_386_32 .init.data > Error: ./mm/slab.o .data refers to 00000138 R_386_32 .init.text > Error: ./mm/slab.o .altinstructions refers to 00000000 > R_386_32 .init.text > Error: ./mm/slab.o .altinstructions refers to 0000000c > R_386_32 .init.text > Error: ./net/ipv4/netfilter/ip_nat_rule.o .data refers to 00000028 > R_386_32 .init.data > Done These are cases where we discard code/data, and then reference it later, which is bad (nothing guaranteeing that memory won't be stomped over by something else). Some of these are getting fixed upstream, so at some point when we pull in the latest upstream, we'll get a bunch of these fixed. Dave From caillon at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 19:34:50 2004 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:34:50 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <419904DA.3020604@redhat.com> Jason Dravet wrote: > I would have delayed the release one at most two weeks. Firefox has had > their release date on their website for about month. And we have had ours displayed for longer. From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Mon Nov 15 19:53:52 2004 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:53:52 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <200411152053.53065.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Monday 15 November 2004 19:08, Jason Dravet wrote: > Anaconda really needs to list all packages during the selection part of the > install (this goes for text based and graphical installs) or maybe have an > advanced menu for experienced users. For example I don't have isdn, so I > don't want the isdn packages installed. However there is no place to > uncheck a ISDN box during the package selection phase, or am I not looking > hard enough. Also a description about each package would be nice. Also, I I think you can do this with kickstart. -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From mherrick at corente.com Mon Nov 15 20:04:56 2004 From: mherrick at corente.com (Mike Herrick) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:04:56 -0500 Subject: stateless wants pxelinux.0 In-Reply-To: <4198F999.4010606@science.edu> Message-ID: <200411152010.iAFKAkLO024840@mx2.redhat.com> Carlos Knowlton wrote: > Anyway, what is the format of the files in the pxelinux.cfg/* files > supposed to be? what parameters need to be passed to the kernel, etc. > and how is this stuff supposed to be generated? I believe that the PXE configuration is supposed to be automatically generated by a cron job (which invokes /usr/share/stateless/statelessGenPXEConfig.py). It didn't work for me because I didn't have an NFS path set properly. If you want to configure it by hand, you can take a look at the pxelinux documentation (part of the syslinux installation): http://syslinux.zytor.com/pxe.php Mike. From enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de Mon Nov 15 20:05:25 2004 From: enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de (Enrico Scholz) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:05:25 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> (Christopher Hotchkiss's message of "Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:49:32 -0500") References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87vfc6swsa.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com (Christopher Hotchkiss) writes: > You can also look at the work that gentoo has done in this area > ... > Unfortunately their runlevels do not conform to either LSB Current RH/FC initscripts do not do this either... Enrico From kyrre at solution-forge.net Mon Nov 15 20:08:08 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:08:08 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux Message-ID: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> All of us trying hard to convert friends etc to Linux - what are the arguments used? Mainly curious, but - why should people drop Windows (which they know, most of their programs often only runns there etc) and swich to Linux? Kyrre From alan at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 20:19:25 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:19:25 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <87vfc6swsa.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> <87vfc6swsa.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> Message-ID: <20041115201925.GB5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 09:05:25PM +0100, Enrico Scholz wrote: > christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com (Christopher Hotchkiss) writes: > > > You can also look at the work that gentoo has done in this area > > Unfortunately their runlevels do not conform to either LSB > > Current RH/FC initscripts do not do this either... They should do. Detail the error please From alan at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 20:23:12 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:23:12 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 09:08:08PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > Mainly curious, but - why should people drop Windows (which they know, > most of their programs often only runns there etc) and swich to Linux? IMHO If you don't know why it would help someone don't try and make them change Of course they may well love firefox, and being able to save money with openoffice etc.... From troels at arvin.dk Mon Nov 15 20:57:36 2004 From: troels at arvin.dk (Troels Arvin) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:57:36 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> Message-ID: My wish list for FC4: - provide a 'really minimal' installation type; as an example, this one would not include NFS stuff or X - include Mono and DotGNU (I've hear that this mix is currently what at least some people use, to get the maximum sum of features) -- Greetings from Troels Arvin, Copenhagen, Denmark From sking4 at cinci.rr.com Mon Nov 15 21:02:24 2004 From: sking4 at cinci.rr.com (Salane KIng) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:02:24 -0500 Subject: glibc-2.3.3-76 problem starting httpd In-Reply-To: <1100541233.30684.15.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <200411142019.03992@x-face> <1100541233.30684.15.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <200411151602.25209@x-face> On Monday 15 November 2004 12:53, Colin Walters wrote: > On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 20:19 -0500, Salane KIng wrote: > > service httpd start > > Starting httpd: /usr/sbin/httpd: error while loading shared libraries: > > librt.so.1: failed to map segment from shared object: Permission denied > > Try this: > > restorecon /lib/librt*.so* > > Somehow the files got mislabeled. This seems to be a problem popping up > occasionally. My guess is it's a prelink bug. yep tried that and the rest of the files in that folder. I finally got the old DocumentRoot error. I ended up doing a reboot with selinux=0. I guess that selinux is not suggested when doing updates. From sking4 at cinci.rr.com Mon Nov 15 21:03:59 2004 From: sking4 at cinci.rr.com (Salane KIng) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:03:59 -0500 Subject: FC3, harddisc install and reiserfs. In-Reply-To: <002901c4cb33$dee867c0$2301000a@snaiperclient> References: <002901c4cb33$dee867c0$2301000a@snaiperclient> Message-ID: <200411151604.01604@x-face> On Monday 15 November 2004 11:55, dima wrote: > How I may install fc3 if my iso images placed on reiserfs partition? > > I was burned 2 disc -> cd5 (rescue) and cd1 (install). > I have 4 linux partitions. > /dev/hdb5 (boot, reiserfs) -> format > /dev/hdb6 (/, reiserfs) -> format > /dev/hdb7 (/temp, reiserfs) -> do not format (isos placed on > /fedora/iso/{FC3-...cd1.iso and etc}) /dev/hdb8 (swap) -> format. > > First try. > 1. Boot from cd5, boot: linux vga=792... bla bla bla askmethod reiserfs > selinux=0 2. In "installation type" menu I was select "install from > harddisk". 3. Select /dev/hdb7, and write in the path "/fedora/iso/" > (with/without first and last slashes) 4. Get error: "cannot find isos". > 5. In console (alt+f2,f3) i saw messages: cannot mount partition, not ext2, > not vfat. > > Second try. > 1. Boot from cd1, boot: linux vga=792... bla bla bla askmethod reiserfs > selinux=0 2. In "installation type" menu I was select "install from > harddisk". 3. Select /dev/hdb7, and write in the path "/fedora/iso/" > (with/without first and last slashes) 4. Get error: "cannot find isos". > 5. In console (alt+f2,f3) i saw messages: cannot mount partition, not ext2, > not vfat. > > Third try. > 1. Boot from cd1, boot: linux vga=792... bla bla bla reiserfs selinux=0 > 2. Do all steps, make partitions, select packages. > 3. When installation wants cd2 (disk was ejected), goto console and write: > cd mnt > mkdir hdb7 > mount -t reiserfs /dev/hdb7 /mnt/hdb7 > cd hdb7 > cd fedora > cd iso > mount -o loop FC3-i386...cd2.iso /mnt/source > get error about unknown loop devices. > > How install fc3 from reiserfs partitions, without burning all 4 disks? > In previsious installations (fc2, fc3), I was may install from isos that > placed on reiserfs discs. > > Thanx. I ended up putting the isos on an ext3 partition. it worked good then. From walters at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 21:08:14 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:08:14 -0500 Subject: glibc-2.3.3-76 problem starting httpd In-Reply-To: <200411151602.25209@x-face> References: <200411142019.03992@x-face> <1100541233.30684.15.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <200411151602.25209@x-face> Message-ID: <1100552894.5535.4.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 16:02 -0500, Salane KIng wrote: > On Monday 15 November 2004 12:53, Colin Walters wrote: > > On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 20:19 -0500, Salane KIng wrote: > > > service httpd start > > > Starting httpd: /usr/sbin/httpd: error while loading shared libraries: > > > librt.so.1: failed to map segment from shared object: Permission denied > > > > Try this: > > > > restorecon /lib/librt*.so* > > > > Somehow the files got mislabeled. This seems to be a problem popping up > > occasionally. My guess is it's a prelink bug. > yep tried that and the rest of the files in that folder. I finally got the old > DocumentRoot error. "old DocumentRoot error"? Can you be more precise? > I ended up doing a reboot with selinux=0. Woah, woah. You can disable enforcement *just* for Apache. http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc3/index.html#using-s-c-securitylevel If you turn it off entirely then you lose all the protection of the other daemons. Please don't do that. > I guess that selinux is not suggested when doing updates. What do you mean? When doing a "yum update" inside a running FC3? Or did you upgrade from FC2 to FC3 in anaconda? Or something else? From mike at navi.cx Mon Nov 15 21:12:09 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:12:09 +0000 Subject: Requests for FC4 References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100543845.20016.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:37:25 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Please do. I never liked the old font system but I can't find words to > say how much I've come to hate it within the past two years. Would that not break emacs which still uses the old font system (along with whatever other apps still use old-style fonts: there are still many)? Really, there's no need to drop the old font system at all. Ever. What possible gain does this have, except a small amount of disk space? If it takes a lot of memory to run constantly then maybe a stub font server should be designed that simply hauls the real thing into memory when you first run an old-style app. thanks -mike From cknowlton at science.edu Mon Nov 15 21:32:46 2004 From: cknowlton at science.edu (Carlos Knowlton) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:32:46 -0600 Subject: stateless wants pxelinux.0 In-Reply-To: <200411152010.iAFKAkLO024840@mx2.redhat.com> References: <200411152010.iAFKAkLO024840@mx2.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4199207E.7080801@science.edu> Mike Herrick wrote: >Carlos Knowlton wrote: > > > >>Anyway, what is the format of the files in the pxelinux.cfg/* files >>supposed to be? what parameters need to be passed to the kernel, etc. >>and how is this stuff supposed to be generated? >> >> > >I believe that the PXE configuration is supposed to be automatically >generated by a cron job (which invokes >/usr/share/stateless/statelessGenPXEConfig.py). It didn't work for me >because I didn't have an NFS path set properly. > > > I'm getting a similar message from "statelessGenPXEConfig.py": " [root at fsix-Server /]# python /usr/share/stateless/statelessGenPXEConfig.py Unable to get NFS location of DemoSystem snapshot DemoSystem-1 " Here's my /etc/exports: " /home/users *(rw,async) /src/stateless/snapshots *(rw,async) " Does anyone know how the NFS location is supposed to be set up? Is there any more documentation than the Tutorial and the source ( I don't speak python very well )? >If you want to configure it by hand, you can take a look at the pxelinux >documentation (part of the syslinux installation): > >http://syslinux.zytor.com/pxe.php > >Mike. > > > > I could configure it by hand, but I'm sure I would end up with a read-only system that wouldn't function like stateless was designed to run (ie, it would be crippled, and act very "read-only-ish"). I get the impression that Stateless Linux is supposed to look and act as though it were a locally installed fully functional Fedora installation. I'm wondering what configuration in the pxelinux.cfg/ folder facillitates this. Thanks! Carlos From ivg2 at cornell.edu Mon Nov 15 21:53:18 2004 From: ivg2 at cornell.edu (Ivan Gyurdiev) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:53:18 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> How about, - Working installer application that does not say: /media/cdrecorder is not a valid install path when I click on any rpm in firefox - was this not supposed to have been fixed for FC3? - Tomcat in the distribution. Eclipse in the distribution, integrated with tomcat. AspectJ, and ant support for it. - Working NNTP support in evolution (as my bug has been ignored) - https links in gnome opening in the browser - it's so annoying to cut and paste bugzilla links (bugzilla filed, not fixed) - A way to resize the gnome icons when I change resolution without editing the Bluecurve file. A way to control what gdm does with the resolution, because right now it makes me scroll the mouse left and right to see the entire screen, which is huge. 1600x1200 is available, but the X startup resolution is 1024x768. -- Ivan Gyurdiev Cornell University From ssahni at gmail.com Mon Nov 15 22:05:01 2004 From: ssahni at gmail.com (Simarjeet Sahni) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:05:01 -0500 Subject: stateless wants pxelinux.0 In-Reply-To: <4199207E.7080801@science.edu> References: <200411152010.iAFKAkLO024840@mx2.redhat.com> <4199207E.7080801@science.edu> Message-ID: <45b47df304111514057da84b5c@mail.gmail.com> Have a look at /usr/share/doc/stateless-server-0.20/stateless-populate-ldap.sh after you create your root entry. Its the quicker easier way to populate ldap :D On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:32:46 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: > Mike Herrick wrote: > > > > >Carlos Knowlton wrote: > > > > > > > >>Anyway, what is the format of the files in the pxelinux.cfg/* files > >>supposed to be? what parameters need to be passed to the kernel, etc. > >>and how is this stuff supposed to be generated? > >> > >> > > > >I believe that the PXE configuration is supposed to be automatically > >generated by a cron job (which invokes > >/usr/share/stateless/statelessGenPXEConfig.py). It didn't work for me > >because I didn't have an NFS path set properly. > > > > > > > > I'm getting a similar message from "statelessGenPXEConfig.py": > " > [root at fsix-Server /]# python /usr/share/stateless/statelessGenPXEConfig.py > Unable to get NFS location of DemoSystem snapshot DemoSystem-1 > " > > Here's my /etc/exports: > " > /home/users *(rw,async) > /src/stateless/snapshots *(rw,async) > " > > Does anyone know how the NFS location is supposed to be set up? Is > there any more documentation than the Tutorial and the source ( I don't > speak python very well )? > > >If you want to configure it by hand, you can take a look at the pxelinux > >documentation (part of the syslinux installation): > > > >http://syslinux.zytor.com/pxe.php > > > >Mike. > > > > > > > > > I could configure it by hand, but I'm sure I would end up with a > read-only system that wouldn't function like stateless was designed to > run (ie, it would be crippled, and act very "read-only-ish"). I get the > impression that Stateless Linux is supposed to look and act as though it > were a locally installed fully functional Fedora installation. I'm > wondering what configuration in the pxelinux.cfg/ folder facillitates this. > > Thanks! > Carlos > > > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > -- Regards, Simarjeet Sahni From sking4 at cinci.rr.com Mon Nov 15 22:05:21 2004 From: sking4 at cinci.rr.com (Salane KIng) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:05:21 -0500 Subject: glibc-2.3.3-76 problem starting httpd In-Reply-To: <1100552894.5535.4.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <200411142019.03992@x-face> <200411151602.25209@x-face> <1100552894.5535.4.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <200411151705.21412@x-face> On Monday 15 November 2004 16:08, Colin Walters wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 16:02 -0500, Salane KIng wrote: > > On Monday 15 November 2004 12:53, Colin Walters wrote: > > > On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 20:19 -0500, Salane KIng wrote: > > > > service httpd start > > > > Starting httpd: /usr/sbin/httpd: error while loading shared > > > > libraries: librt.so.1: failed to map segment from shared object: > > > > Permission denied > > > > > > Try this: > > > > > > restorecon /lib/librt*.so* > > > > > > Somehow the files got mislabeled. This seems to be a problem popping > > > up occasionally. My guess is it's a prelink bug. > > > > yep tried that and the rest of the files in that folder. I finally got > > the old DocumentRoot error. > > "old DocumentRoot error"? Can you be more precise? > > > I ended up doing a reboot with selinux=0. > > Woah, woah. You can disable enforcement *just* for Apache. > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc3/index.html#using-s-c-security >level > > If you turn it off entirely then you lose all the protection of the other > daemons. Please don't do that. > > > I guess that selinux is not suggested when doing updates. > > What do you mean? When doing a "yum update" inside a running FC3? Or > did you upgrade from FC2 to FC3 in anaconda? Or something else? I had run into this before but I can't find the link. Here is where I was helping someone else out. My fix required the installation of an upgraded version of selinux-policy-targeted. I am running selinux-policy-targeted-1.19.1-5 now. I assume it is the latest version. What I ran into this time after all the other file permissons were fixed with restorecon -R /lib, I had the "DocumentRoot must be a directory" error again when starting up httpd. That is as specific as I can be as of now. I can't seem to find the exact error in /var/log/httpd/error_log. probably due to not having auditing turned on. I am new to fedora and selinux and thanks for the link. I will reboot and hopefully figure this out better. http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=26559&highlight=DocumentRoot From dhollis at davehollis.com Mon Nov 15 22:10:06 2004 From: dhollis at davehollis.com (David Hollis) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:10:06 +0200 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100556607.22723.30.camel@dhollis-lnx.centricconsulting.com> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 21:08 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > All of us trying hard to convert friends etc to Linux - what are the > arguments used? > > Mainly curious, but - why should people drop Windows (which they know, > most of their programs often only runns there etc) and swich to Linux? > > Kyrre All of my programs run on Linux. Sure, I may miss out on some apps, but nowhere near as many as people would have you believe. Of course, I really miss having Word crash on me constantly whenever I tried to save files. And it's pretty terrible not having to shell out $100+ to be able to create PDF files. And the ability to get timely updates to my apps when there are security issues, though they tend to be considerably less severe in any case. And then the fact that there is a new release of my OS every 6-8 months and yet, I don't have to pay a dime to upgrade! And did I mention that I don't get "install cruft" building up everytime I install a piece of software since it's properly managed and I know what owns dang near every file? -- David Hollis -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Mon Nov 15 22:24:48 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:24:48 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 12:18 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > It should be possible to start with a limited set of easily collected > data and already get a useful picture. Useful data collection could be > as simple as taking a snapshot of the data that the "top" program > displays a few times a second during boot. That already gives you a > list of the running processes, their states, and some statistics about > global system load. So I gave this a try: 1. I modified the boot procedure so that early in rc.sysinit, a tmpfs is mounted and top is run in batch mode (to output every 0.2 seconds). The logged output is later parsed only up to the point where gdmgreeter is running and the system is relatively idle (i.e. boot complete and ready for login). 2. A Java program parses the log file, builds the process tree and finally renders a PNG chart. Processes are sorted by PID and traversed depth first. This still needs more work but here's a sneak preview: http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart.png (as a result of http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootop.log.gz ) Some processes were filtered out for clarity -- mostly sleepy kernel processes and the ones that only live for the duration of a single top sample. This skews the chart a bit but is definitely more comprehensible (compare with http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-complete.png ). Some things I plan on adding: - start logging earlier in the boot process (possibly in initrd), - add additional layers (e.g. make use of the kernel patch Arjan suggested for showing the number of open files), - improve process tree representation and add dependency lines, - render SVG instead, for scalability and interactivity. This definitely helped me with my boot times -- the 4-second load gap at the start I found to be "modprobe floppy", apparently timing out on my floppyless laptop :) Any ideas or comments are welcome, -- Ziga From cmadams at hiwaay.net Mon Nov 15 22:47:12 2004 From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:47:12 -0600 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041115224712.GF644616@hiwaay.net> Once upon a time, Ziga Mahkovec said: > 1. I modified the boot procedure so that early in rc.sysinit, a tmpfs is > mounted and top is run in batch mode (to output every 0.2 seconds). The > logged output is later parsed only up to the point where gdmgreeter is > running and the system is relatively idle (i.e. boot complete and ready > for login). It would probably be easier (and more accurate) to use process accounting to gather the data. You could add it at the beginning of rc.sysinit and turn if off in rc.local. -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. From troels at arvin.dk Mon Nov 15 22:53:07 2004 From: troels at arvin.dk (Troels Arvin) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:53:07 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:53:18 -0500, Ivan Gyurdiev wrote: > - Tomcat in the distribution. Eclipse in the distribution, > integrated with tomcat. AspectJ, and ant support for it. Can all these be run from an open source JVM or as gcj-compiled applications? -- Greetings from Troels Arvin, Copenhagen, Denmark From walters at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 23:08:58 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:08:58 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <1100560138.5535.21.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 23:24 +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > 1. I modified the boot procedure so that early in rc.sysinit, a tmpfs is > mounted and top is run in batch mode (to output every 0.2 seconds). The > logged output is later parsed only up to the point where gdmgreeter is > running and the system is relatively idle (i.e. boot complete and ready > for login). > > 2. A Java program parses the log file, builds the process tree and > finally renders a PNG chart. Processes are sorted by PID and traversed > depth first. > > This still needs more work but here's a sneak preview: > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart.png Dude. You are awesome. From hp at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 23:16:37 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:16:37 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <1100560598.12102.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 23:24 +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > So I gave this a try: > This is awesome! > Any ideas or comments are welcome, The obvious thing to try is removing readahead and rhgb ;-) Havoc From cknowlton at science.edu Mon Nov 15 23:16:30 2004 From: cknowlton at science.edu (Carlos Knowlton) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:16:30 -0600 Subject: Stateless Works! but... Message-ID: <419938CE.4020301@science.edu> Hi, I finally got a diskless machine to boot from a stateless server! There are a lot of "can't do that on a read-only filesystem" messages, at boot, and I can't login, there must be something I'm missing. Is there a "post-image-installation" document describing how to overcome these problems? Also, I had to figure out how to use the "stateless-servers" command to add the nfs/rsync paths before the cron job would work that configured the client pxelinux files under /tftpboot. I may have overlooked it somehow, but shouldn't that be in the tutorial? Thanks! Carlos From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Tue Nov 16 00:48:48 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:48:48 +0100 Subject: RFC: "Include .la files" rule for packages - revisited Message-ID: <20041116014848.4ce59cca.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> [Since some guess-work is involved here, I'd like to ask politely for comments from "people in the know"...] Some individuals will surely remember the times at fedora.us when it was discussed whether to delete or include libtool archives (= *.la files) in RPM packages. Neither Linux's build-time linkers nor its run-time linkers need these .la files. Not even libtool's own dlopen function needs these files anymore to resolve library dependencies at run-time. Almost everyone who has done application development with libtool and automake (and friends) some time in the past, has run into problems with .la files. Such as unresolvable inter-library dependencies or build-time problems with moved or non-finalized or wrong libtool archive files. So, over time many people have build up the opinion that in RPM packages, it's better to not include .la files. That reduced the cases, where .la files are needed, to software which includes old implementations of libtool dlopen, which strictly require .la files. At fedora.us, a few such cases have been found during the first months of activity. But, if memory serves correctly, also a few cases of bad libtool files. KDE, on the other hand, provides a library loader class, which depends on availability of .la files to work correctly. Hence for most KDE applications it is a good idea to not delete any .la files, because else the app might fail loading its plugins/components at run-time. A rule about .la files has never been set in stone. Backed up by many packages in Red Hat Linux/Fedora Core, where .la files are not included either, fedora.us packagers have decided to delete .la files where no obvious breakage is discovered during QA. Based on fedora.us bug #2284 I've discovered something which I didn't know before. Could be that it's old news to KDE people: It has been noticed that Imlib2, a library which uses libtool's API for loading plugins at run-time, fails in Digikam 0.7. Imlib2 passes an extension-less library name to lt_dlopenext, which then either loads .la or .so files, if found. So, including .la files in the imlib imlib package is not necessary. However, when called from within Digikam, which is a KDE application, Imlib2's plugin loader fails to find its *.so files. It does not even search for them. Why? It seems KDE's libkdecore preloads some libtool related symbols to shield KDE applications from accessing libtool's lt_dlopenext, lt_dlopen and lt_dlopen_flag interface functions. A guess without reading the KDE core source. But I found those symbols being mentioned in libkdecore (did I guess right?). The shadow lt_dlopennext function from KDE ignores *.so files and wants *.la files only. Hence Imlib2 fails. This changes the .la/.so matter a good bit IMO. Where are we now? Do we still delete .la files till we find out that it breaks something at run-time? Or do we include .la files (it's a policy for Debian, isn't it?) till we find that something doesn't build? What is worse? -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.667 loadavg: 1.55 1.35 1.31 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From otaylor at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 01:05:09 2004 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:05:09 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 23:24 +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 12:18 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > > It should be possible to start with a limited set of easily collected > > data and already get a useful picture. Useful data collection could be > > as simple as taking a snapshot of the data that the "top" program > > displays a few times a second during boot. That already gives you a > > list of the running processes, their states, and some statistics about > > global system load. > > So I gave this a try: > > 1. I modified the boot procedure so that early in rc.sysinit, a tmpfs is > mounted and top is run in batch mode (to output every 0.2 seconds). The > logged output is later parsed only up to the point where gdmgreeter is > running and the system is relatively idle (i.e. boot complete and ready > for login). > > 2. A Java program parses the log file, builds the process tree and > finally renders a PNG chart. Processes are sorted by PID and traversed > depth first. > > This still needs more work but here's a sneak preview: > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart.png Wow, this is fabulous work, and fast too! What sort of libraries are you using in the Java program? Do you have any idea whether getting it to run on top of open source Java would be feasible? How are you computing the different shades of yellow and gray? Are you looking at differences in the TIME column? > (as a result of http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootop.log.gz ) > > Some processes were filtered out for clarity -- mostly sleepy kernel > processes and the ones that only live for the duration of a single top > sample. This skews the chart a bit but is definitely more > comprehensible (compare with > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-complete.png ). > > Some things I plan on adding: > - start logging earlier in the boot process (possibly in initrd), > - add additional layers (e.g. make use of the kernel patch Arjan > suggested for showing the number of open files), > - improve process tree representation and add dependency lines, > - render SVG instead, for scalability and interactivity. All sound good. Grouping processes by the process tree would clearly make things a little clearer, though if you know what's going on, it's not hard to figure out that xkbcomp is being run by X, not by wait_for_sysfs. Disk throughput would probably be the extra layer I'd be most interested in. We seem to be IO bound during almost the entire process, but how are we doing for efficiency? Are we doing significantly better during readahead than during start-random-services? > This definitely helped me with my boot times -- the 4-second load gap at > the start I found to be "modprobe floppy", apparently timing out on my > floppyless laptop :) Just glancing at the initial image certainly brings all sorts of questions to mind: - Why is rhgb eating so much CPU? if you run 'rhgb -i' it displays basically 0 CPU to display the animation. That looks like a pretty obvious bug we completely missed. - Is it just a coincidence that dhclient gets the lease almost exactly simultaneously with readahead finishing? Is readahead blocking the rest of the system? - Is readahead doing any good at all? Would it still be doing good if we fixed blocking boot for 20 seconds on dhclient? - What does GNOME login look like? You can also see that most of the time is eaten in just a few things ... initial module probing, starting X twice, dhclient. There are only 7 seconds from when dhclient finishes until the point prefdm starts, and that's the portion people have mostly worked on parallelizing. Anyways, I'm very impressed, looks like I'll have to start figuring out shipping to Slovenia :-) (*) Owen (*) Let me know when you think you you are at a point where you think you have something you'd like to have as a poster, and we can work out how to best implement the details of my offer. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Tue Nov 16 03:48:34 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:48:34 +0100 Subject: KDE bug? Re: RFC: "Include .la files" rule for packages - revisited In-Reply-To: <20041116014848.4ce59cca.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <20041116014848.4ce59cca.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <20041116044834.41d4ab2e.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> > (did I guess right?). The shadow lt_dlopennext function from KDE > ignores *.so files and wants *.la files only. Hence Imlib2 fails. Well, kdelibs src.rpm reveals that a copy of GNU libltdl is included, but configured and compiled to not support .so file extensions for shared libraries: checking which extension is used for shared libraries... That doesn't look intentional, because the corresponding part of the configure script runs sed on unexpanded variables, $libname${shared_ext} and therefore results in an empty string instead of ".so". Then, of course, it's no surprise that .so files are no even searched for. -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.667 loadavg: 1.88 1.70 2.29 From hp at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 03:54:22 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:54:22 -0500 Subject: RFC: "Include .la files" rule for packages - revisited In-Reply-To: <20041116014848.4ce59cca.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <20041116014848.4ce59cca.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <1100577262.4345.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 01:48 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote: > This changes the .la/.so matter a good bit IMO. Where are we now? Do > we still delete .la files till we find out that it breaks something at > run-time? Or do we include .la files (it's a policy for Debian, isn't > it?) till we find that something doesn't build? What is worse? I still think including them is definitely wrong for libraries that support pkg-config. We're pretty inconsistent about it though, "ls /usr/lib/*.la" is far from empty. Havoc From otaylor at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 04:10:51 2004 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:10:51 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100578251.8404.199.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 20:05 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > - Why is rhgb eating so much CPU? if you run 'rhgb -i' it displays > basically 0 CPU to display the animation. That looks like a > pretty obvious bug we completely missed. Tracked this one down: http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=139463 Hopefully that will shave a few seconds off the boot when we get it fixed. Owen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mrsam at courier-mta.com Tue Nov 16 04:15:38 2004 From: mrsam at courier-mta.com (Sam Varshavchik) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:15:38 -0500 Subject: Courier-0.47 RPMBuild error References: <1100540103.22810.1.camel@bluewise.co.za> Message-ID: Fedora List Subscriber writes: > Hi list > > When trying to build an RPM [yes, I don't have an anvil to drop on my > foot instead! ;-P ] in FC2 (patched up2date): > > // rpmbuild -ta -v courier-0.47.tar.bz2 > > results in the following error: > > // A few lines of output to indicate at what stage this failed ... > // > // Processing files: courier-debuginfo-0.47-1.2 > // Requires(rpmlib): rpmlib(CompressedFileNames) <= 3.0.4-1 > // rpmlib(PayloadFilesHavePrefix) <= 4.0-1 > // > > RPM build errors: > File not found by glob: > /var/tmp/courier-0.47-1.2-buildroot/usr/local/bin/* This is a bug in rpm/glibc. stracing rpm shows that it globs out "%{_bindir}/*" by calling stat() on each filename. In an RPM buildroot image, intra-package soft links are obviously broken, since they point outside the buildroot. stat() fails on them. Bug 139460. Looks like recently rpm switched from lstat() to stat(), when globbing out %files. This bug must've been hiding for quite some time. You'll only hit it if you're building a package that installs softlinks for the first time, or if the newer version of an installed package installs new soft links. Otherwise, inside the build root the softlinks point to the existing installation's files, outside of the buildroot, stat() succeeds, and rpm processes the results from glob(). -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From green at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 04:15:48 2004 From: green at redhat.com (Anthony Green) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:15:48 -0800 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> Message-ID: <1100578547.2909.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 14:53, Troels Arvin wrote: > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:53:18 -0500, Ivan Gyurdiev wrote: > > > - Tomcat in the distribution. Eclipse in the distribution, > > integrated with tomcat. AspectJ, and ant support for it. > > Can all these be run from an open source JVM or as gcj-compiled > applications? Definitely yes for Tomcat and Ant (w/ gij & gcj). I don't know about AspectJ. Eclipse 3 builds and runs nicely out of the box with GCC 4ish tools. So I guess it depends on whether or not FC4 will include GCC4 (something I have no clue about). AG -- Anthony Green Red Hat, Inc. From pcompton at proteinmedia.com Tue Nov 16 05:35:00 2004 From: pcompton at proteinmedia.com (Phillip Compton) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:35:00 -0500 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests Message-ID: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> scribus - DTP inkscape - Vector Graphics lcms - Color Management Phil From cra at WPI.EDU Tue Nov 16 06:13:25 2004 From: cra at WPI.EDU (Charles R. Anderson) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:13:25 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> Graphical shutdown to go with the graphical bootup? From jrb at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 06:56:03 2004 From: jrb at redhat.com (Jonathan Blandford) Date: 16 Nov 2004 01:56:03 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> Message-ID: "Charles R. Anderson" writes: > Graphical shutdown to go with the graphical bootup? Better than that, lets just shut down immediately. Once you're logged out, there's no reason that this should be as slow as it is. -Jonathan From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Tue Nov 16 08:00:15 2004 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:00:15 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100539483.11585.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100539483.11585.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4199B38F.6000004@hhs.nl> About the dhcp delay, why not just use the lease from the previous boot? If not expired and for desktops only, this should be configurable for notebooks versus desktops ofcourse. Regards, Hans Peter Jones wrote: > On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 18:35 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > >>given the 7 second disk read time... 10 seconds is a bit unrealistic. >>One of the critical paths will be getting an IP address and mounting the >>/home dir over nfs... ethernet negotiation can easily be 10 seconds >>already with gige, and DHCP is depending on that to complete before it >>can get a lease. > > > But if you're stalling on network I/O, we could run the things that > don't need the network to be there at the same time. There's enough of > it that I don't think dhcp should actually delay booting, if it's async. > > Of course, if you're using NetworkManager, it already is... but there're > some kinks in that that still need smoothing over, like the part of > ntpd's initscript that does the initial clock sync never getting run > while the network is up. > -- EuropeSwPatentFree http://EuropeSwPatentFree.hispalinux.es From mpeters at mac.com Tue Nov 16 08:29:48 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:29:48 +0000 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> (from kyrre@solution-forge.net on Mon Nov 15 12:08:08 2004) References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/15/2004 12:08:08 PM, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > All of us trying hard to convert friends etc to Linux - what are the > arguments used? > > Mainly curious, but - why should people drop Windows (which they > know, > most of their programs often only runns there etc) and swich to > Linux? The biggest benefits imho are - 1) Not very many (if any) viruses for Linux - 'course there are worms, but that's an issue on Windows as well. 2) So far, that I know of, no spyware Both of those aren't guaranteed for the future - especially with distributions like Lindows that (at least use to) default to root user eliminating filesystem security. 3) This is the big one for me - unified facility for updating not just the vendor installed software packages, but potentially all software, through a single interface. In Windows, some apps gets updated through Windows Update, some through the application itself, some you have to hunt for updates. But yum makes it both possible and stupidly trivial for a vendor to create a working update repository they can add to the clients yum configuration, allowing their software to be easily updated when the client updates the rest of the operating system. It would be nice if yum supported (does it?) authentication at the server, so that private repos could exist (beyond the obvious server IP based authentication which doesn't work for non static IP's) for commercial vendors, but :shrug: 3 is really the big one for me - yum really kicks ascii. Most people though don't seem to care about that kind of stuff. The fact that so many people with Windows have virus checkers so far out of date indicates most people don't care aboyt 1,2,3 :shrug: To increase marketshare it needs to get to the OEM's. There's a reason why MS spent so much effort keeping BeOS etc. out of OEM shops. -=- I will tell you why I have a Windows partition - Going to the post office takes me two hours minimum (I don't drive) Going to a local mail stop to send a package results in a hefty fee for them to stamp it - I kid you not, especially for packages. They surcharge bigtime. Stamps.com lets me print pre-paid postage label with verified address and USPS tracking, and I only have to give it to my postal carrier when he comes by. Saves me time and money - windows only. Buying music (I don't pirate) is also a job if I'm not near a music shop in my normal activities. Buying CD's online is fine, if you are buying enough to make the S+H worth it. iTMS on the other hand delivers instantly with no S+H, and I can ignore (and not pay for) tracks I don't want/like. If solutions for those scenarios came to Linux (and no, I don't like wine) natively - I wouldn't need Windows. From arjanv at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 09:03:59 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:03:59 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1100595839.2811.12.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 08:29 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > 1) Not very many (if any) viruses for Linux - 'course there are worms, > but that's an issue on Windows as well. execshield (as part of the fedora kernels) makes it harder to write worms though... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From troels at arvin.dk Tue Nov 16 09:13:45 2004 From: troels at arvin.dk (Troels Arvin) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:13:45 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:35:00 -0500, Phillip Compton wrote: > scribus - DTP > inkscape - Vector Graphics > lcms - Color Management I don't know about lcms, but the others sound like candidates for Fedora Extras, as they aren't exactly "core" components. By the way: I consider it _very_ sad that the Fedora Extras project doesn't collaborate with projects like FreshRPMS, Dag's repository, etc. (sometimes collectively called 'rpmforge'). Such lack of collaboration makes it very difficult for me to see Fedora Extras as a "community project" - which is its very purpose, as I understand it. When I say "don't collaborate", I'm thinking about a sad message like this one: http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/apt/FAQ.php#D -- Greetings from Troels Arvin, Copenhagen, Denmark From veillard at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 09:14:24 2004 From: veillard at redhat.com (Daniel Veillard) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:14:24 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100578251.8404.199.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100578251.8404.199.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041116091423.GJ16354@redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 11:10:51PM -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 20:05 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > > > - Why is rhgb eating so much CPU? if you run 'rhgb -i' it displays > > basically 0 CPU to display the animation. That looks like a > > pretty obvious bug we completely missed. > > Tracked this one down: > > http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=139463 > > Hopefully that will shave a few seconds off the boot when we get it > fixed. Oops, I totally missed that ! Thanks a lot ! Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ veillard at redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From mpeters at mac.com Tue Nov 16 09:42:52 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:42:52 +0000 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: (from troels@arvin.dk on Tue Nov 16 01:13:45 2004) References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> Message-ID: <1100598172l.3540l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/16/2004 01:13:45 AM, Troels Arvin wrote: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:35:00 -0500, Phillip Compton wrote: > > > scribus - DTP > > inkscape - Vector Graphics > > lcms - Color Management > > I don't know about lcms, but the others sound like candidates for > Fedora > Extras, as they aren't exactly "core" components. > > By the way: I consider it _very_ sad that the Fedora Extras project > doesn't collaborate with projects like FreshRPMS, Dag's repository, > etc. > (sometimes collectively called 'rpmforge'). Such lack of > collaboration > makes it very difficult for me to see Fedora Extras as a "community > project" - which is its very purpose, as I understand it. In a nutshell the reason as I see it is this - Fedora has a protocol that they follow regarding package naming, package building, and package testing which is very clearly outlined in the Fedora documentations. This involves an outline QA process packages have to go to. For Fedora to "cooperate" with third party packagers, they would need to throw that process to the side for packages that have to be redone in order to work with dag or freshrpm's etc. - and that's a bad thing, the policy and guidelines they have are there for a reason, and that reason is to provide a stable set of packages for those users who need a stable repository to work with. Fedora already offers a way for these other repositories to integrate with Fedora - they can introduce themselves to the list, and submit packages to the fedora repository, going through the Fedora QA process to do so. That is how the Fedora community works. If dag and freshrpms's etc. want to cooperate together, that's fine - that's even good. But Fedora has a published established way for integrating with Fedora, and Fedora can not be expected to test all possible scenarios of packages installed from third parties. From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Tue Nov 16 09:55:35 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:55:35 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> Message-ID: <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Troels Arvin wrote : > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:35:00 -0500, Phillip Compton wrote: > > > scribus - DTP > > inkscape - Vector Graphics > > lcms - Color Management > > I don't know about lcms, but the others sound like candidates for Fedora > Extras, as they aren't exactly "core" components. Well, Phillip already packages these in fedora.us and Fedora Extras if I'm not mistaken, so I guess he was suggesting to have them moved to Core. > By the way: I consider it _very_ sad that the Fedora Extras project > doesn't collaborate with projects like FreshRPMS, Dag's repository, etc. > (sometimes collectively called 'rpmforge'). Such lack of collaboration > makes it very difficult for me to see Fedora Extras as a "community > project" - which is its very purpose, as I understand it. What makes you think Dag and I don't collaborate with Extras? I guess you're talking about fedora.us, not to be confused with "Fedora Extras" which's existence is imminent, will be mostly based on fedora.us (which was in turn partly based on my packages, Dag's packages and other packages...) but will hopefully not suffer from the same strict policies, thus be more open, friendly, and "attractive" at last. Please be assured that Dag and I have our reasons for doing things to way we do them, and the same applies to fedora.us. Some may seem dumb, as for instance I didn't want to orbit all of my effort around a bugzilla, nor did I want to modify all my spec files to follow fedora.us requirements or guidelines (mandatory zero epoch, aligned headers, comment lines etc.). > When I say "don't collaborate", I'm thinking about a sad message like > this one: > http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/apt/FAQ.php#D This is unfortunately something Dag put up ultimately in order to orient the users reporting "your packages create a dependency mess" types of problems when using fedora.us _and_ his files. It has been a (mostly) understandable decision from fedora.us to not focus ("waste time") on compatibility with the outside, which the only ones having a rough time understanding are the end-users. Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.667.radeonfb Load : 0.14 0.16 0.70 From troels at arvin.dk Tue Nov 16 10:03:01 2004 From: troels at arvin.dk (Troels Arvin) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:03:01 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:55:35 +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > What makes you think Dag and I don't collaborate with Extras? I guess > you're talking about fedora.us, not to be confused with "Fedora Extras" Sorry - I thought it was the same thing. > which's existence is imminent, will be mostly based on fedora.us (which was > in turn partly based on my packages, Dag's packages and other packages...) > but will hopefully not suffer from the same strict policies, thus be more > open, friendly, and "attractive" at last. I'm confused - but happy. Judging from your posting, things are moving the right way. -- Greetings from Troels Arvin, Copenhagen, Denmark From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue Nov 16 10:36:24 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:36:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: RFC: "Include .la files" rule for packages - revisited In-Reply-To: <20041116014848.4ce59cca.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <20041116014848.4ce59cca.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004, Michael Schwendt wrote: > This changes the .la/.so matter a good bit IMO. Where are we now? Do > we still delete .la files till we find out that it breaks something at > run-time? In my experience, /usr/lib/lib*.la is safe to delete, whereas kde stuff in /usr/lib/kde3 is not. Others should be dealth with on a case-by-case basis (ie, remove .la files unless shown they are needed otherwise). -- Rex From jorton at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 10:51:01 2004 From: jorton at redhat.com (Joe Orton) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:51:01 +0000 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100018816.3837.80.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <20041116105101.GA29201@redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 05:03:36PM +0100, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > Hi, > > > > > > > - A lot of developers I know, including a bunch at Red Hat, *turn off > > > SELINUX entirely*. IMO, something that gets pushed at heavily as this > > > should be dogfooded by the development team at Red Hat completely, so > > > they encounter firsthand what it means and how to fix basic issues. > > > > FWIW I have three machines here, of which two have SELinux always on in > > enforcing mode, and the third sometimes on (dogfooding Rawhide here, so > > sometimes things break...). They're all using the targeted policy. > > Oh, I'm sure there are developers dogfooding it. My point is that *all* > of the Red Hat developers should be dogfooding it if you think SELINUX > should be the default (which I assume is being thought since it's the > default in anaconda). I dogfood it on all my test boxes. But the reality is that if you use a slightly non-default configuration for httpd or enable any of the "interesting" modules, or use any interesting PHP webapps, etc, then you are going to have to either write a shed-load of SELinux policy specific to your configuration, or you're going to disable the httpd target in s-c-securitylevel. That's just a fact of SELinux as far as I can tell. The conclusion I draw from this is, as I've said before, that it's not correct to have httpd covered by the SELinux policy *by default*. joe From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 11:13:13 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (kyrre at solution-forge.net) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:13:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> > On 11/15/2004 12:08:08 PM, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: >> All of us trying hard to convert friends etc to Linux - what are the >> arguments used? >> >> Mainly curious, but - why should people drop Windows (which they >> know, >> most of their programs often only runns there etc) and swich to >> Linux? > > The biggest benefits imho are - > > 1) Not very many (if any) viruses for Linux - 'course there are worms, > but that's an issue on Windows as well. > > 2) So far, that I know of, no spyware > > Both of those aren't guaranteed for the future - especially with > distributions like Lindows that (at least use to) default to root user > eliminating filesystem security. > > 3) This is the big one for me - unified facility for updating not just > the vendor installed software packages, but potentially all software, > through a single interface. All of those are nice - but are they "killer apps" for Linux? No - it is merely supporting functions which make the OS nicer. What i mean is more like: What can you do on Linux, you cant use Windows or OSX for? Anything cool that most people would want? From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 12:14:37 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:14:37 -0500 Subject: Java status for FC4? In-Reply-To: <1100532645.8191.6938.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> References: <1100167526.2785.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100168168.30400.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1100196904.17274.58.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> <1100219128l.6203l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1100532645.8191.6938.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> Message-ID: The IBM JRE provides a Java plugin for Mozilla. Additionally, the IBM JRE is currently ported to almost all business platforms Linux runs on: ia32, ia64, x86_64, ppc32, ppc64, s390, s390x. Regards, Avi On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:30:45 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 00:25 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > A JRE in the distro would solve that issue, so long as it has a java > > plugin that works. This also would be desirable for PPC machines, as > > Blackdown doesn't (to my knowledge) provide a ppc JRE. > > Blackdown has a 1.3.1 JRE for ppc32; IBM has 1.4.2 for both ppc32 and > ppc64. I'm not sure if the IBM one has a browser plugin though. > > -- > dwmw2 > > -- From enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de Tue Nov 16 12:17:24 2004 From: enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de (Enrico Scholz) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:17:24 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041115201925.GB5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> (Alan Cox's message of "Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:19:25 -0500") References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> <87vfc6swsa.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> <20041115201925.GB5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <87k6smrnsb.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) writes: >> > You can also look at the work that gentoo has done in this area >> > Unfortunately their runlevels do not conform to either LSB >> >> Current RH/FC initscripts do not do this either... > > They should do. Detail the error please * http://refspecs.freestandards.org/LSB_2.0.1/LSB-Core/LSB-Core/iniscrptact.html RH/FC initscripts do not have: * try-restart, force-reload actions * do not return the LSB error-codes * http://refspecs.freestandards.org/LSB_2.0.1/LSB-Core/LSB-Core/initscrcomconv.html These comments are neither in RH/FC initscripts, nor supported by the initsystem. * http://refspecs.freestandards.org/LSB_2.0.1/LSB-Core/LSB-Core/iniscrptfunc.html These functions are not used by the RH/FC initscript; instead of 'daemon' or 'killproc' are there. I do not say that these are errors; just that the RH/FC initscripts are not LSB compliant. Enrico From arjanv at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 12:33:31 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:33:31 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <87k6smrnsb.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> <87vfc6swsa.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> <20041115201925.GB5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <87k6smrnsb.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> Message-ID: <1100608411.2811.37.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 13:17 +0100, Enrico Scholz wrote: > I do not say that these are errors; just that the RH/FC initscripts are > not LSB compliant. one nitpick; the LSB doesn't require the "distribution native" scripts to be compliant, only that the distribution accepts compliant scripts... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 12:40:00 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:40:00 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> Message-ID: On 11/15/2004 12:08:08 PM, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > >> All of us trying hard to convert friends etc to Linux - what are the > >> arguments used? > > All of those are nice - but are they "killer apps" for Linux? No - it is > merely supporting functions which make the OS nicer. All those points you guys put here are real and I like them, specially M. Peters yum argument. But it is all useless, from a business perspective, if your users have to use apps built with proprietary technologies, like VB, Delphi, etc. And 99% of today?s workplace desktops have to run some business app made with these frameworks. A desktop is not only a Browser and an Office Suite. I hope some day it will be, with industry initiatives like portal, etc. But personaly, I?m not really sure FC3 (not just Linux) is ready for, say, my mother to use. And she does only browsing, e-mail and messenger. She is already using Firefox on Windows though. The server perspective follows the same rules: If you have a server app built on top of proprietary technologies (ASP, .NET, Cold Fusion, etc), I?m sorry Linux, but there is no room for you. Go see the infrastructure department if there is something for you, and come back tomorrow to this business section. The bottom line is: operating systems do not solve business problems alone. They need apps that implement some enterprise business logic. So the OS is defined by the higher level application your datacenter MUST run. Sad but true. If you have all your business apps built with standards like J2EE, etc, Linux is ready today for deployment. From the simplest caching DNS server, to the biggest SAP, ERP, CRM implementation you can imagine. The most effective way to make Linux more popular is convincing DEVELOPERS (the guys that make business and killer apps) to start developing on Linux. Regards, Avi From buildsys at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 12:49:07 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:49:07 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041116 changes Message-ID: <200411161249.iAGCn7g16992@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> From buytenh at wantstofly.org Tue Nov 16 13:22:39 2004 From: buytenh at wantstofly.org (Lennert Buytenhek) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:22:39 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> Message-ID: <20041116132239.GA29464@xi.wantstofly.org> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 07:40:00AM -0500, Avi Alkalay wrote: > The server perspective follows the same rules: If you have a server > app built on top of proprietary technologies (ASP, .NET, Cold Fusion, > etc), I?m sorry Linux, but there is no room for you. There is Cold Fusion for Linux. --L From kmaraas at broadpark.no Tue Nov 16 11:33:37 2004 From: kmaraas at broadpark.no (Kjartan Maraas) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:33:37 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> Message-ID: <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> man, 15,.11.2004 kl. 16.53 -0500, skrev Ivan Gyurdiev: > How about, > > - Working installer application that does not say: > /media/cdrecorder is not a valid install path when I click > on any rpm in firefox - was this not supposed to have been > fixed for FC3? > > - Tomcat in the distribution. Eclipse in the distribution, > integrated with tomcat. AspectJ, and ant support for it. > > - Working NNTP support in evolution (as my bug has been ignored) > This works for me with 2.0.x. Did you file it in bugzilla.ximian.com? > - https links in gnome opening in the browser - > it's so annoying to cut and paste bugzilla links > (bugzilla filed, not fixed) > This should be fixed in GNOME CVS at least, not sure if it was backported to 2.8.x. > - A way to resize the gnome icons when I change resolution > without editing the Bluecurve file. A way to control Create a Bluecurve theme using SVGs? > what gdm does with the resolution, because right now > it makes me scroll the mouse left and right to see the entire > screen, which is huge. 1600x1200 is available, but the X startup > resolution is 1024x768. Is this filed in bugzilla.gnome.org? Depending on whether it's a problem in gdm or X.org of course? Cheers Kjartan From mike at navi.cx Tue Nov 16 14:48:19 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:48:19 +0000 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:29:48 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > If solutions for those scenarios came to Linux (and no, I don't like > wine) natively - I wouldn't need Windows. Why don't you want to use Wine for these things? I got a track from iTMS yesterday on Linux, without a copy of Windows, using Wine. It solves your problem using free software as much as possible, in a convenient manner, but you'd rather reboot to Windows and use 100% proprietary stuff instead? That makes no sense. If it's just some "oh well I think vendors should produce native apps" then fine, we all love native apps, but Apple (I notice you have a @mac.com address) is the company that bought Shake then immediately killed the [profitable] Linux port. They are not going to be doing a Linux-native port anytime soon, perhaps not ever. Circle-breaking has to start somewhere ... From powers.jason at jimmy.harvard.edu Tue Nov 16 14:53:39 2004 From: powers.jason at jimmy.harvard.edu (Jason Powers) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:53:39 -0500 Subject: stateless wants pxelinux.0 In-Reply-To: <4198F999.4010606@science.edu> References: <4198E5A3.5020609@science.edu> <1100541057.9029.14.camel@blaa> <4198F290.7090402@science.edu> <4198F999.4010606@science.edu> Message-ID: <419A1473.5000201@jimmy.harvard.edu> The pxelinux.cfg file isn't part of stateless specifically, it's more of a general "here's some boot-time parameters" file. We've been using LTSP here for a while, and I know if you search that page or just google tftpboot +pxelinux you get a lot of docs referring to how the things are configured. I've seen man pages and such for it, but none are complete. I'm trying to get the diskless version of staeless to run, because the LTSP local apps config is a nightmare, and I need the terminals' memory to handle the application being used. It has a terrible memory leak and I'd rather it drop one client than the whole server. The present install of stateless is supposed to run a cron job every hour to manage all the pxe stuff, but it hasn't worked here yet. I'm starting this experiment over and running it off an nfs server to diskless clients, I'm going to try to install from the terminal directly to the NFS share and see if that works a little better, the "install it on a machine and then remove the hard drive" trick isn't getting it done, even with a clever-crafted pxelinux.cfg. Jason Powers Network Coordinator Frontier Science ps. my 'old' pxelinux.cfg/default file, which works for ltsp but not stateless. YMMV. prompt=0 label linux kernel bzImage-2.4.26-ltsp-2 append init=/linuxrc rw root=/dev/ram0 initrd=initrd-2.4.26-ltsp-2.gz ipappend 1 Carlos Knowlton wrote: > Carlos Knowlton wrote: > >> Mark McLoughlin wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 11:21 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Okay, next question: (and remember, this is in the name of helping >>>> stateless (and clueless) newbies everywhere, so bear with me =) >>>> >>>> I have stateless linux installed according with the tutorial >>>> , and I'm >>>> attempting to do a PXE boot on a diskless machine. The PC is able >>>> to get an IP address, and then tries to get "pxelinux.0", and fails >>>> with a PXE-T01 and PXE-E3B. "pxelinux.0 isn't even located in the >>>> /tftpboot directory anywhere. so I add it to where dhcpd.conf says >>>> it should be, in "/tftpboot/linux-install/pxelinux.0", what's >>>> next? how do I set up /tftpboot/linux-install/pxelinux.cfg/*"? >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I think as long as you have tftp-server and syslinux installed it >>> should be there. Although, now that I look, I'm not sure how it gets >>> there - neither package owns it and pxelinux just installs it >>> in /usr/lib. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Mark. >>> >>> >>> >> Hmm, well, I just realized that when I ran stateless-clients to add a >> client, that somehow, it doesn't get added: >> " >> [root at Server ~]# stateless-clients --configuration DemoSystem --add >> 00:11:11:4A:8A:21 >> [root at Server ~]# stateless-clients -l >> Clients: >> [root at fsix-Server ~]# >> " >> could this be related? >> >> >> Regards, >> Carlos >> > Okay, maybe it isn't related. Though, as someone mentioned earlier, the > stateless-* utilities don't take long-form ("--") parameters. I got it > working with "stateless-clients -c DemoSystem -a 00:11:11:4A:8A:21". > Maybe the docs need to be updated (?). > > Anyway, what is the format of the files in the pxelinux.cfg/* files > supposed to be? what parameters need to be passed to the kernel, etc. > and how is this stuff supposed to be generated? > > Regards, > Carlos > From powers.jason at jimmy.harvard.edu Tue Nov 16 15:08:35 2004 From: powers.jason at jimmy.harvard.edu (Jason Powers) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:08:35 -0500 Subject: Stateless Linux experience... In-Reply-To: <200411151814.iAFIE23F015948@mx1.redhat.com> References: <200411151814.iAFIE23F015948@mx1.redhat.com> Message-ID: <419A17F3.9010107@jimmy.harvard.edu> Mike Herrick wrote: > Thought I'd give this a try. Still in progress, but a couple of pointers to > pass on to anyone who wants to give it a go. > > > > 1) First, make sure you get the latest source from CVS. There are a couple > of bugs in parsing arguments that have been fixed (as noted in > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg00233 > .html). > check > > > 2) Even with the latest code, there is a typo on line 96 of > stateless-snapshooter.py ("--protosytem" should be "--protosystem"). > copy editor for hire > > > 3) I tried this on a machine that initially had 128MB of RAM. When I got to > the "stateless-snapshooter -n -p DemoSystem" step, I ran out of memory: > "device-mapper ioctl cmd 9 failed: Cannot allocate memory". I added 128MB > of RAM and still had the same problem, so I stopped some non-essential > services (httpd, sendmail, etc.). Then I was able to continue. > I'll have to settle for testing it with 1GB dual channel pc3200, we'll see if it makes a difference. We got that message when we were loading the 'vmlinuz' kernel instead of the pxelinux.0 boot image first. > > > 4) Because I needed to reboot to add RAM, all of the files that I had copied > from the 'test' system to /srv/stateless/protosystem/DemoSystem seemed to > have been lost. It wasn't until after I had re-copied them from the test > machine that I remembered the "mount /dev/mapper/VGStateless-DemoSystem > /srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem" command in one of the previous > steps. Moral of the story: add it to the /etc/fstab so it'll be > automatically remounted on reboots. > entered into fstab, though mine kept that mount when I rebooted. > > > 5) In the /etc/dhcpd.conf file, it refers to "linux-install/pxelinux.0" as > the PXE bootable image, but when the PXE client connects this file is not > found. I copied /usr/lib/syslinux/pxelinux.0 (from syslinux RPM) to > /tftpboot/linux-install. > I changed this. Whatever is referred to as the pxelinux location is actually tacked onto /tftpboot/. I'm concerned that parts of the program may attempt to run and be looking inside /tftpboot/ for the images, or be looking for non-pxe files realitve to that path. Anyway I changed it to /pxelinux.0 and dropped the files in /tftpboot to make my life easier. > > > 6) Because of the RAM problem above, I'm not sure that subsequent > invocations of "stateless-snapshooter -n -p DemoSystem" actually worked as > designed. When I execute "stateless-snapshooter -l", I get: > > > > Protosystems: > > DemoSystem > > > > But it doesn't say anything about snapshots. This makes me nervous. What > should the output look like? > That's what mine looks like. > > > 7) When I run "python statelessGenPXEConfig.py" after adding the MAC > addresses, I get "Unable to get NFS location of DemoSystem snapshot > DemoSystem-1". I'm not exactly sure where it's supposed to have picked up > the NFS path definition from. It appears to me from browsing some of the > code that somewhere along the line I was supposed to have executed > "stateless-servers", but I didn't see anything about that in the > documentation. > In the config.py you can control all the paths the python scripts look to. This need to be changed, I think, to run off the etc/sysconfig/stateless file, because users aren't going to manipulate python scripts (no matter how simple it may be). > Since the statelssGenPXEConfig.py script failed to generate any PXE > configuration, I generated my own by hand: > > > > DEFAULT stateless/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-1/vmlinuz > initrd=stateless/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-1/initrd.img > NFSROOT=6.6.6.1:/srv/stateless/snapshots/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-1 > ah very helpful. > > > I then added the following to /etc/exports: > > > > /srv/stateless/snapshots/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-1 *(ro,async) > I have the same, but added no_root_squash. I think I also put the subnet in there because I don't need to export the file to the whole internet. > > > With these changes, I was able to get a machine to boot from the snapshot, > but there were many errors/warnings stemming from having a read-only root > (and /var) filesystem on a diskless client. > Going to try it now. I had the initial install authorize of a pre-existing, usable ldap auth server, so maybe I'll get past this. Jason From laroche at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 14:38:42 2004 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:38:42 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <87k6smrnsb.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367407.5074.7.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <7f48492a04111309497bb51743@mail.gmail.com> <87vfc6swsa.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> <20041115201925.GB5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <87k6smrnsb.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> Message-ID: <20041116143842.GA6794@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > * http://refspecs.freestandards.org/LSB_2.0.1/LSB-Core/LSB-Core/iniscrptact.html > > RH/FC initscripts do not have: > * try-restart, force-reload actions > * do not return the LSB error-codes It has been higher priority to allow LSB software to run ontop of our distribution than making our own software packages LSB- conformant. greetings, Florian La Roche From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 15:13:35 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:13:35 -0300 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:48:19 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:29:48 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > If solutions for those scenarios came to Linux (and no, I don't like > > wine) natively - I wouldn't need Windows. Me neither. > Why don't you want to use Wine for these things? I got a track from iTMS > yesterday on Linux, without a copy of Windows, using Wine. It solves > your problem using free software as much as possible, in a convenient > manner, but you'd rather reboot to Windows and use 100% proprietary stuff > instead? That makes no sense. Have you ever asked why RH removed Wine from the distro ? Well, it is better to let some Red Hatter to respond that, but I can tell that IBM will never propose some migration solution based on Wine because it is an open implementation of a proprietary thing. In other words, it is proprietary, which means "legal issues". Windows APIs are a propriety of Microsoft. Other minor Wine issues are: - Businesses look at it as an ad-hoc solution - You can't be sure if all your apps will run there Regards, Avi From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue Nov 16 15:32:00 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:32:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? Message-ID: Any ideas/pointers on getting FC3 running on (MS) VirtualPC (2004)? It installs fine, but doesn't completely get into multiuser (or even single-user) mode after that. Can't get in far enough to much snooping around or even look at the logs. -- Rex From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Tue Nov 16 16:08:50 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:08:50 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <20041116170850.2670b3d9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:55:35 +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > [...] fedora.us (which was > in turn partly based on my packages, Dag's packages and other packages...) Matthias, you write "partly", but the way you write it ("and other packages"), you make it sound as if the number of derived packages would be worth mentioning at all. Only few spec files of the >400 packages contain your name or Dag's name in the changelog. Considering how many packagers have created packages from scratch, derived upstream packages, transferred their own contrib packages, and applied lots of fixes and improvements as part of fedora.us QA, there are many ways to rephrase above quote and put it more accurately. Credit where credit is due. But it should not sound anything like the infamous "Mandrake Linux is based on Red Hat Linux" (which was true in 1999, but not still five years later). It would a pitty if some contributors simply took somebody's src.rpm and cut off the spec changelog, retaining large sections of a previous packager's work. But unless there's evidence that this has happened many times, please don't downplay the packagers' achievements by highlighting the few packages which were derived from yours or Dag's actually and long ago. The fact that more than two hundred packages, which are not available as packages from you or Dag, wait in the package submission queue, is proof enough that there are more sources of packages, including packages written from scratch. On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:03:01 +0100, Troels Arvin wrote: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:55:35 +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > > > What makes you think Dag and I don't collaborate with Extras? I guess > > you're talking about fedora.us, not to be confused with "Fedora Extras" > > Sorry - I thought it was the same thing. Fedora.us is not the Fedora Project's official "Fedora Extras". It's still the current semi-official/unofficial Fedora Extras until it has merged with the Fedora Project. The http://fedora.us has one or two articles about that merger. fedora.redhat.com also links fedora.us as the currently suggested way to contribute Fedora Extras packages. That will change when the Fedora Project announces "Fedora Extras" officially. -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.667 loadavg: 1.00 1.08 1.07 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Tue Nov 16 16:20:34 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:20:34 +0100 Subject: KDE bug? Re: RFC: "Include .la files" rule for packages - revisited In-Reply-To: <20041116044834.41d4ab2e.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <20041116014848.4ce59cca.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <20041116044834.41d4ab2e.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <20041116172034.41f61150.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93359 From kmaraas at broadpark.no Tue Nov 16 16:30:21 2004 From: kmaraas at broadpark.no (Kjartan Maraas) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:30:21 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100622621.4832.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> tir, 16,.11.2004 kl. 12.33 +0100, skrev Kjartan Maraas: > man, 15,.11.2004 kl. 16.53 -0500, skrev Ivan Gyurdiev: > > How about, > > [SNIP] > > - https links in gnome opening in the browser - > > it's so annoying to cut and paste bugzilla links > > (bugzilla filed, not fixed) > > > This should be fixed in GNOME CVS at least, not sure if it was > backported to 2.8.x. > I checked this and it is indeed fixed in control-center-2.8.1. Cheers Kjartan From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Tue Nov 16 16:39:14 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:39:14 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <20041116173914.56bbed36.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:55:35 +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > [...] nor did > I want to modify all my spec files to follow fedora.us requirements or > guidelines (mandatory zero epoch, aligned headers, comment lines etc.). "aligned headers" and "comment lines" have never been mandatory. That a spec template exists and contains them for readability, is unrelated. There have not been any requirements for packagers to make their spec files look like the spec template. Cannot comment on "etc.", because I don't know what that refers to. ;) -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.667 loadavg: 1.00 1.01 1.00 From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Tue Nov 16 16:50:51 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:50:51 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <20041116170850.2670b3d9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <20041116170850.2670b3d9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <20041116175051.6069f452.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Michael Schwendt wrote : > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:55:35 +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > > > [...] fedora.us (which was > > in turn partly based on my packages, Dag's packages and other > > packages...) > > Matthias, you write "partly", but the way you write it ("and other > packages"), you make it sound as if the number of derived packages would > be worth mentioning at all. [...] Sorry, didn't mean to denigrate anyone's hard work. _Some_ of my packages (hence "partly") have been re-used, and this doesn't bother me at all, I was just pointing the fact out. A quick glance shows that of the 550 Extras package I have the build files from, about 70 were directly based on packages I made, with the changelog kept intact from the point they were re-used. Some others (hard to tell how many, and definitely not worth bothering digging to know) were re-used with the changelog reset (alsa stuff, apt... haven't looked further than "a" ;-)). My main point was just (once again) trying to make things clear about the various unilateral decisions, and why they were that way. Anyway, yes, 70+ of 550 is non negligible from my POV... Oh well, I've said it now. So let the usual "he's so egocentric" and "he didn't want to collaborate in the community project to keep his name everywhere" type of flames begin (off-list would be best, thanks :-)). Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.667.radeonfb Load : 0.97 0.96 0.84 From balay at fastmail.fm Tue Nov 16 16:52:01 2004 From: balay at fastmail.fm (Satish Balay) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:52:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004, Matthias Saou wrote: > I guess you're talking about fedora.us, not to be confused with > "Fedora Extras" which's existence is imminent Will "Fedora Extras" follow the Fedora Core develompent path - with rawhide, release snapshots, updates? (as opposed to the current model where the pacakges are respun after a fedora release - and same pacakges are available for all fedroa releases supported) Thanks, Satish From perbj at stanford.edu Tue Nov 16 16:58:23 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:58:23 -0800 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100624303.3515.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 09:32 -0600, Rex Dieter wrote: > Any ideas/pointers on getting FC3 running on (MS) VirtualPC (2004)? It > installs fine, but doesn't completely get into multiuser (or even > single-user) mode after that. Can't get in far enough to much snooping > around or even look at the logs. Any idea where it stops? Do you get any text at all on the screen? And what is the state of your system - freshly installed FC3? udev-039-8 which is shipped in FC3 does seem to have some trouble when running under VMware, I wonder if this could be something similar? It can be killed with ^C and you'll get a reasonably functional system; an update to the latest udev in updates-released fixes the problem. /Per -- Per Bjornsson Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 16:58:47 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:58:47 -0300 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100622621.4832.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100622621.4832.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: I want support for Elektra :-) http://elektra.sourceforge.net On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:30:21 +0100, Kjartan Maraas wrote: > tir, 16,.11.2004 kl. 12.33 +0100, skrev Kjartan Maraas: > > man, 15,.11.2004 kl. 16.53 -0500, skrev Ivan Gyurdiev: > > > How about, > > > > [SNIP] > > > > - https links in gnome opening in the browser - > > > it's so annoying to cut and paste bugzilla links > > > (bugzilla filed, not fixed) > > > > > This should be fixed in GNOME CVS at least, not sure if it was > > backported to 2.8.x. > > > I checked this and it is indeed fixed in control-center-2.8.1. > > > > Cheers > Kjartan > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 17:06:49 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:06:49 -0300 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <20041116170850.2670b3d9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <20041116170850.2670b3d9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: > Fedora.us is not the Fedora Project's official "Fedora Extras". It's > still the current semi-official/unofficial Fedora Extras until it has > merged with the Fedora Project. The http://fedora.us has one or two > articles about that merger. fedora.redhat.com also links fedora.us as > the currently suggested way to contribute Fedora Extras packages. That > will change when the Fedora Project announces "Fedora Extras" > officially. I submited some packages to be approved for Fedora Extras, following the process at http://www.fedora.us/wiki/PackageSubmissionQAPolicy and nothing happened until now. No response, no yes, no no. :-( From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Tue Nov 16 17:13:05 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:13:05 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <20041116175051.6069f452.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <20041116170850.2670b3d9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <20041116175051.6069f452.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <20041116181305.58024b15.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:50:51 +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > Sorry, didn't mean to denigrate anyone's hard work. > _Some_ of my packages (hence "partly") have been re-used, and this doesn't > bother me at all, I was just pointing the fact out. A quick glance shows > that of the 550 Extras package I have the build files from, about 70 were > directly based on packages I made, with the changelog kept intact from the > point they were re-used. $ cd fedora.us/stable $ find . -name \*.spec | wc -l 371 $ grep -i matthias * -R | awk -F: '{ print $1 }' | uniq | wc -l 13 $ grep -i saou * -R | awk -F: '{ print $1 }' | uniq | wc -l 12 $ grep -i freshrpm * -R | awk -F: '{ print $1 }' | uniq | wc -l 1 And that includes spec files where your name appears in an arbitrary location. $ cd ../testing $ find . -name \*.spec | wc -l 55 $ grep -i saou * -R | awk -F: '{ print $1 }' | uniq | wc -l 0 > Some others (hard to tell how many, and definitely > not worth bothering digging to know) were re-used with the changelog reset > (alsa stuff, apt... haven't looked further than "a" ;-)). Ah, that's your theory. I think e.g. alsa packages and a few others, were rewritten beyond recognition. -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.667 loadavg: 1.50 1.18 1.09 From walters at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 17:38:46 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:38:46 -0500 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <20041116105101.GA29201@redhat.com> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100018816.3837.80.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> <20041116105101.GA29201@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100626727.26494.17.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 10:51 +0000, Joe Orton wrote: > I dogfood it on all my test boxes. But the reality is that if you use a > slightly non-default configuration for httpd I wouldn't quite say that. I've been running a website with multiple custom virtual hosts and admins, suEXEC, and other fun stuff with the SELinux policy for about 1.5 years, and I've only had to write a bit of custom policy. Mostly things like allowing rsyncd to read from the website, etc. > or enable any of the > "interesting" modules, Well, it depends on the particular modules. mod_rewrite for example can require no policy if you're just using regexps, but you can also configure it to talk to an external daemon for URL rewriting... > or use any interesting PHP webapps, The major problem with PHP is that it runs in-process, so we can't separate "stuff PHP webapp wants to do" from "compromised httpd". For example, most webapps will want write access to your web content, but you definitely don't want that for static file serving. When we get the Apache guide out, I think it would be useful to include in it configuration/policy tweaks people needed to get particular PHP applications to run. > etc, then you > are going to have to either write a shed-load of SELinux policy specific > to your configuration, I've been thinking recently about how to make this easier. > or you're going to disable the httpd target in > s-c-securitylevel. That's just a fact of SELinux as far as I can tell. > > The conclusion I draw from this is, as I've said before, that it's not > correct to have httpd covered by the SELinux policy *by default*. I'm not sure; we've seen lots of issues, sure, but that's not surprising. There are a *lot* of people doing a lot of different things with Apache. The current policy works very well for static file serving and "typical" CGI scripts. I don't have a good sense for how many people are using Apache just for this kind of thing versus complex PHP apps. But just like we ship Apache with the "UserDir" option disabled, directory indexing disabled, I think it makes sense to ship with Apache locked down tightly by SELinux per default, and have people open things up as they need it. From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue Nov 16 17:50:44 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:50:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <1100624303.3515.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100624303.3515.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004, Per Bjornsson wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 09:32 -0600, Rex Dieter wrote: >> Any ideas/pointers on getting FC3 running on (MS) VirtualPC (2004)? It >> installs fine, but doesn't completely get into multiuser (or even >> single-user) mode after that. Can't get in far enough to much snooping >> around or even look at the logs. > > Any idea where it stops? Do you get any text at all on the screen? After further investigation (googling, newsgroups, etc), it seems VirtualPC cannot run with the 4G/4G kernel patch applied (so it appears to be a VirtualPC bug/issue). I'll see if installing with a rebuilt kernel without that patch works (I strongly suspect it will). -- Rex From barryn at pobox.com Tue Nov 16 18:06:05 2004 From: barryn at pobox.com (Barry K. Nathan) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:06:05 -0800 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041116180604.GA18859@ip68-4-98-123.oc.oc.cox.net> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 09:32:00AM -0600, Rex Dieter wrote: > Any ideas/pointers on getting FC3 running on (MS) VirtualPC (2004)? It > installs fine, but doesn't completely get into multiuser (or even > single-user) mode after that. Can't get in far enough to much snooping > around or even look at the logs. I don't have VPC 2004, but if you can use the installer CD's rescue mode, then maybe you could try something like this (add intermediate steps as needed -- you'll see what I mean once you read the instructions): 1. Boot into rescue mode. 2. Use rpm -ivh --oldpackage to install a kernel from RHEL 4 beta 2, like this one: http://mirrors.kernel.org/redhat/redhat/linux/beta/nahant-beta2/en/WS/i386/RedHat/RPMS/kernel-2.6.9-1.648_EL.i686.rpm I just realized, you could also try installing an i586 FC3 kernel (I guess I would do "rpm -e --nodeps kernel" then "rpm -ivh /wherever/blah/kernel-2.6.9-1.667.i586.rpm" or something like that). Both the i586 FC3 kernel and the i686 RHEL 4 kernel lack 4G/4G. VMware's virtualization method makes it run really slow with 4G/4G. It's possible that Virtual PC's virtualization/emulation method makes it just blow up... -Barry K. Nathan From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Tue Nov 16 18:23:33 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:23:33 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <20041116170850.2670b3d9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <20041116192333.66f93bb7.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:06:49 -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > I submited some packages to be approved for Fedora Extras, ... and so have more than 60 other package developers, resulting in more than 250 packages to be reviewed. > following > the process at http://www.fedora.us/wiki/PackageSubmissionQAPolicy > and nothing happened until now. No response, no yes, no no. > > :-( The same page also recommends that packagers exchange reviews with eachother. http://www.fedora.us/wiki/PackageSubmissionQAPolicy#review Since package QA is undefined beyond a few security relevant and technical things, it need not be developers who do reviews. Users can help, too, e.g. with run-time testing, as can GPG signed confirmation from the upstream project which verifies that a tarball has not been tampered with. -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.667 loadavg: 2.03 2.01 1.50 From mike at navi.cx Tue Nov 16 19:02:31 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:02:31 +0000 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:13:35 -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > Have you ever asked why RH removed Wine from the distro ? The ~1 month release cycle probably had something to do with it, not much point shipping software that's immediately out of date. That rate of change is going to slow down in future as it's known to be harmful. > Well, it is better to let some Red Hatter to respond that, but I can > tell that IBM will never propose some migration solution based on Wine > because it is an open implementation of a proprietary thing. In other > words, it is proprietary, which means "legal issues". Windows APIs are > a propriety of Microsoft. I hope you're not speaking for IBM when you say that (usually best to make it clear), because that paragraph makes no sense. GCJ is an open implementation of Java, which is a "proprietary thing", yet the legally conservative Red Hat ship that. AMD Athlon is an implementation of the "proprietary" x86 architecture. There are no laws against reimplementing a competitors technology, why do you these beige boxes are sometimes still called IBM PCs? Obviously if you steal actual code that's copyright infringement, but there has never been accusations of that against the project. The other thing is patent infringement. Whilst there are no patents against Wine we're aware of they almost certainly exist, on the grounds that nearly every interesting open source project probably violates some patents out there so that's not an argument for not doing it. By the way, you meant "property" in the last sentence. Nobody can own an API under copyright law, it's merely a contract. You can own implementations of it, but Wine is written by the people and owned by nobody, like all open source software. > Other minor Wine issues are: > - Businesses look at it as an ad-hoc solution No, they don't, please don't spread FUD. I may as well state here that I work on Wine professionally and I can give you a long list of businesses that are using it both for internal projects and for program ports. They are nearly all household names. A few of them have gone public (eg Disney, Macromedia, Advanced Wave Research and so on), most do not. > - You can't be sure if all your apps will run there No, you can't. Equally you can't be sure the kernel will support your hardware, that OpenOffice will support your PowerPoint files, or that your users will like the sparkly new desktop ITS just gave them. There are no certainties in a desktop Linux migration. Wine does have a company made up of long time hackers backing it, including the projects maintainer of 10+ years. CodeWeavers can bring Wine up to scratch for the applications you need to contract. A company of the people writing the code willing to meet your needs is about the closest thing you can get to certainty with an open source project. thanks -mike From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Tue Nov 16 19:09:01 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:09:01 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 20:05 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > Wow, this is fabulous work, and fast too! Thanks :) > What sort of libraries are you using in the Java program? Do you have > any idea whether getting it to run on top of open source Java would > be feasible? I'm using the java2d and imageio packages with IBM's JDK. It doesn't work out of the box with libgcj though, so I'll have to come up to speed with the java2d/cairo development. Alternatively, I can always drop the alpha/antialias pertiness. Or switch to SVG instead and let librsvg do the work. Anyway, I'll upload the script and source code once I clean things up. > How are you computing the different shades of yellow and gray? Are > you looking at differences in the TIME column? Only running (yellow) processes are shaded. It goes like this: - check S (status) column: - D (unint. sleep) -> gray - S (sleeping) -> light gray - Z (zombie) -> dark gray - T (traced) -> redish (but I haven't seen any) - R (running) -> check %CPU column, use #ffcb00 with alpha ranging from 50% to 100% (128 + CPU*128) There were also some white gaps which needed squashing (fixed and updated the chart). > Just glancing at the initial image certainly brings all sorts of > questions to mind: > > - Why is rhgb eating so much CPU? if you run 'rhgb -i' it displays > basically 0 CPU to display the animation. That looks like a > pretty obvious bug we completely missed. You seem to have tracked this one down, but here's the output without rhgb for comparison: http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-norhgb.png (boot time went from 1:27 to 0:51) > - Is it just a coincidence that dhclient gets the lease almost > exactly simultaneously with readahead finishing? Is readahead > blocking the rest of the system? > > - Is readahead doing any good at all? Would it still be doing good > if we fixed blocking boot for 20 seconds on dhclient? http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-noreadahead.png (boot time: 0:49 -- note that this is *with* rhgb) Without rhgb and readahead: http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-norhgbreadahead.png (boot time: 0:51 -- so these guys obviously don't play well together) > - What does GNOME login look like? If I parse up to the point where gnome-panel is running and the system is 90% idle: http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-login.png All corresponding bootop.log.{norhgb,login,...}.gz log files are also available. > Anyways, I'm very impressed, looks like I'll have to start figuring > out shipping to Slovenia :-) (*) I'd think this has gotten easier since we joined the EU :) > (*) Let me know when you think you you are at a point where you think > you have something you'd like to have as a poster, and we can > work out how to best implement the details of my offer. Will do, thanks! -- Ziga From mike at navi.cx Tue Nov 16 19:15:01 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:15:01 +0000 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100018816.3837.80.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1100189016.4163.2.camel@otto.amantes> <20041116105101.GA29201@redhat.com> <1100626727.26494.17.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:38:46 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > When we get the Apache guide out, I think it would be useful to include > in it configuration/policy tweaks people needed to get particular PHP > applications to run. Right, this is definitely the best attitude. More configuration with SELinux in interesting setups is probably unavoidable: the whole point is that you tell the system precisely what programs should and should not be allowed to do so it can enforce that. Administering servers always involves administration, hopefully SELinux and writing policy will come to be accepted as just one of those things admins should know in future, in much the same way that you're supposed to know how to edit httpd.conf > I've been thinking recently about how to make this easier. GUI tools would be a good start. Apache in general needs better GUI tools I think ... one of the areas IIS tends to whip Apache is on small-scale intranet deployments where the person running the web server is computer-literate but not a guru and the IIS config gui is a strength. Got to stay positive with this! :) thanks -mike From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Tue Nov 16 19:22:27 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:22:27 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041116202227.44a35a58@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > Without rhgb and readahead: > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-norhgbreadahead.png > (boot time: 0:51 -- so these guys obviously don't play well together) This shows what I have "felt" while watching my machine crawl though the boot process: as soon as the syslog daemon comes up, everything gets a lot slower. -- Many rebel spies have died for this information. From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 19:20:19 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:20:19 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> man, 15.11.2004 kl. 21.23 skrev Alan Cox: > On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 09:08:08PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > Mainly curious, but - why should people drop Windows (which they know, > > most of their programs often only runns there etc) and swich to Linux? > > IMHO If you don't know why it would help someone don't try and make them change > Mainly i have had them switch on technical/ideological reasons. But the "ordinary guy" - why should he/she switch? > Of course they may well love firefox, and being able to save money with > openoffice etc.... But openoffice and firefox runs on windows as well. From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 19:27:33 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:27:33 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> Message-ID: <1100633253.2682.5.camel@kyrre> tir, 16.11.2004 kl. 13.40 skrev Avi Alkalay: > On 11/15/2004 12:08:08 PM, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > >> All of us trying hard to convert friends etc to Linux - what are the > > >> arguments used? > > > > All of those are nice - but are they "killer apps" for Linux? No - it is > > merely supporting functions which make the OS nicer. > > > All those points you guys put here are real and I like them, specially > M. Peters yum argument. > > But it is all useless, from a business perspective, if your users have > to use apps built with proprietary technologies, like VB, Delphi, etc. > And 99% of today?s workplace desktops have to run some business app > made with these frameworks. A desktop is not only a Browser and an > Office Suite. I hope some day it will be, with industry initiatives > like portal, etc. > Delphi exists for Linux. Sadly (i know it is a shitty language, but it is fast to learn and develop small things in), VB doesn't. > But personaly, I?m not really sure FC3 (not just Linux) is ready for, > say, my mother to use. And she does only browsing, e-mail and > messenger. She is already using Firefox on Windows though. > > The server perspective follows the same rules: If you have a server > app built on top of proprietary technologies (ASP, .NET, Cold Fusion, > etc), I?m sorry Linux, but there is no room for you. Go see the > infrastructure department if there is something for you, and come back > tomorrow to this business section. > On the server side things are looking better - as far as i can see, Linux is often the preferred platform here for developers to develop on, simply because it is the most widespread. > The bottom line is: operating systems do not solve business problems > alone. They need apps that implement some enterprise business logic. > So the OS is defined by the higher level application your datacenter > MUST run. Sad but true. > agreed > If you have all your business apps built with standards like J2EE, > etc, Linux is ready today for deployment. From the simplest caching > DNS server, to the biggest SAP, ERP, CRM implementation you can > imagine. > > The most effective way to make Linux more popular is convincing > DEVELOPERS (the guys that make business and killer apps) to start > developing on Linux. > agreed > Regards, > Avi From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Tue Nov 16 19:39:03 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:39:03 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100633253.2682.5.camel@kyrre> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> <1100633253.2682.5.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100633943.14162.27.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 20:27 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > Delphi exists for Linux. Sadly (i know it is a shitty language, but it > is fast to learn and develop small things in), VB doesn't. VB.NET does, however. http://www.mono-project.com Also, the Delphi port for Linux (Kylix) is not very compatible with the Windows Delphi. I've seen several projects developed for Windows that cannot be ported to Linux because of the differences between Delphi and Kylix. -- Sean Middleditch AwesomePlay Productions, Inc. From notting at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 19:45:10 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:45:10 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Ziga Mahkovec (ziga.mahkovec at klika.si) said: > Without rhgb and readahead: > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-norhgbreadahead.png > (boot time: 0:51 -- so these guys obviously don't play well together) I'd be curious to see what happens if you turn off synchronous logging. Bill From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 19:52:08 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:52:08 -0300 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:02:31 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > > Well, it is better to let some Red Hatter to respond that, but I can > > tell that IBM will never propose some migration solution based on Wine > > because it is an open implementation of a proprietary thing. In other > > words, it is proprietary, which means "legal issues". Windows APIs are > > a propriety of Microsoft. > > I hope you're not speaking for IBM when you say that (usually best to make > it clear), because that paragraph makes no sense. GCJ is an > open implementation of Java, which is a "proprietary thing", yet the > legally conservative Red Hat ship that. AMD Athlon is an > implementation of the "proprietary" x86 architecture. There are no laws > against reimplementing a competitors technology, why do you these beige > boxes are sometimes still called IBM PCs? Java is an open specification with a closed source JVM implementation. Sun actually likes projects like Kaffe, and other opensource JVM implementations. Same openness for Inte/AMD and IBM PC/Whitebox. What I know is that lawyers advised IBM to not offer Wine solutions. Its almost the same with OpenOffice.org (for other legal reasons), but for this last one the value you get is soooo big that we are fighting these lawyers. I'm not saying that Wine doesn't have that value. I use it everyday and it works well. But IMHO, I'd like to not depend on it in the near future. > By the way, you meant "property" in the last sentence. Nobody can own an > API under copyright law, it's merely a contract. You can own > implementations of it, but Wine is written by the people and owned by > nobody, like all open source software. Well.... ask the lawyers about APIs ownership.... I really don't know. > > Other minor Wine issues are: > > - Businesses look at it as an ad-hoc solution > > No, they don't, please don't spread FUD. I may as well state here that I > work on Wine professionally and I can give you a long list of businesses > that are using it both for internal projects and for program ports. They > are nearly all household names. A few of them have gone public (eg Disney, > Macromedia, Advanced Wave Research and so on), most do not. The so called FUD was not intentional. I apologise. I'm just telling you the experiences I've had with customers. Expading my point: companies are buying the idea that server-side applications centralization and integration, with a web/portal approach, is the right way to go, so a Wine-based solution feels like temporary, and sometimes does not worth the effort and migration costs. > > - You can't be sure if all your apps will run there > > No, you can't. Equally you can't be sure the kernel will support your > hardware, that OpenOffice will support your PowerPoint files, or that your > users will like the sparkly new desktop ITS just gave them. There are no > certainties in a desktop Linux migration. Yes, it is a rocky path. But (real story follows:) imagine a company that has 7000 VB apps spread all around. An IT services company can't say "Lets test your apps on Wine, and then we'll know if it is good for you, and give you a contract to sign for the migration service". It is just too risky and too much (free) pre-sales work that nobody can afford. > Wine does have a company made up of long time hackers backing it, > including the projects maintainer of 10+ years. Great. This means that Wine has an excelent ecosystem and it is mature. I hope lawyers can change their opinion about Wine, because it is a great open source project. > CodeWeavers can bring Wine up to scratch for the applications you need to > contract. A company of the people writing the code willing to meet your > needs is about the closest thing you can get to certainty with an open > source project. I agree. They can taylor for your size. This is getting out of topic. If you want to continue the discussion, lets do it in privet. Regards, Avi From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Tue Nov 16 19:56:02 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:56:02 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100634962.14162.43.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 20:20 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > man, 15.11.2004 kl. 21.23 skrev Alan Cox: > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 09:08:08PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > Mainly curious, but - why should people drop Windows (which they know, > > > most of their programs often only runns there etc) and swich to Linux? > > > > IMHO If you don't know why it would help someone don't try and make them change > > > > Mainly i have had them switch on technical/ideological reasons. But the > "ordinary guy" - why should he/she switch? He shouldn't. There's no compelling reason that the average guy cares about. Even if Linux was 100% perfectly easy to use and had tons of great apps, there *still* wouldn't be a compelling reason to switch for the average guy. And they shouldn't have to. Your Operating System is just a means to an end. Linux has several advantages over Windows: - Better development platform (average guy doesn't care) - More secure (average guy don't understand or care about viruses, security is often a hindrance in their opinion) - Little to no cost (average guy gets his OS with his computer, doesn't care) - Freedom (meaningless even to most developers, where the computer is a tool and not a political statement, average guy doesn't care) - Many technological improvements (average guy doesn't care) Linux has several disadvantages over Windows: - Different (many average guys don't want change) - Can't run the latest games the day they come out (every average guy I know cares about this one) - Can't run the silly browser-ActiveX controls on this week's popular joke/game web site (average guys may care about these) - Can't run the silly low-quality near-pointless Windows app that his Aunt gave him (even if the Linux/OSS equivalent is far superior, the average guy does not want to have to find and install said app, he just wants to stick in the CD his aunt gave him and have it work) - Usability still sucks eggs (absolutely biggest gripe of all time - third-party application and driver installation, which over here in reality-land, happens very often, especially in the case of mainstream commercial games) End verdict? Average guy has absolutely no reason to switch to Linux, and has good reason to switch *off* of Linux. Which is *exactly* what I've seen happen with every single home Linux installation I've known about except for mine. In the end, they switch to Windows. They even go and pay $200 for a copy out of their pocket, thus disproving the myth that Linux' low-cost is all that important to home users. Here's a cool idea. Don't do something unless you have a reason. You are doing one of the dumbest mistakes in the book - you have a solution (switch to Linux) and you're looking for a problem (reason to switch). DON'T DO THAT! Find a problem *first*, and then look for a solution. Even most of the problems you'll find on Windows can be best fixed with a solution other than replacing the entire operating system and all applications with Linux and OSS alternatives. -- Sean Middleditch AwesomePlay Productions, Inc. From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 20:09:31 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:09:31 -0300 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100633253.2682.5.camel@kyrre> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> <1100633253.2682.5.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:27:33 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > On the server side things are looking better - as far as i can see, > Linux is often the preferred platform here for developers to develop on, > simply because it is the most widespread. Unfortunatelly this is not true. I worked with several Windows developers that were starting projects on Linux, and they couldn't wait for the day they'll go back to Windows IDEs. Linux is a wonderfull platform for developers as long as they have that hacker-spirit, as we have :-). Linux drawbacks for developers are too much configuration files to edit while deploying their software, like add user access to tty on /etc/security/console.perms, or simply activating a needed Apache module for their CGI. Oh, and configuration files location and format differ from distro to distro, so all deployments must be done by hand, with a human brain, and almost not automations (they usally don't know sed, perl, rpm, etc, and probably will not learn it). Also, the FHS is wonderful, but they don't know it, so they ask "why /etc, why /bin, why /usr/bin ?". Microsoft's most killer apps are their IDEs and development frameworks. Because they know how strategic is to have the developers (killer and business apps) working for them. Regards, Avi From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 20:13:27 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:13:27 -0300 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100633943.14162.27.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> <1100633253.2682.5.camel@kyrre> <1100633943.14162.27.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:39:03 -0500, Sean Middleditch wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 20:27 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > Delphi exists for Linux. Sadly (i know it is a shitty language, but it > > is fast to learn and develop small things in), VB doesn't. > > VB.NET does, however. http://www.mono-project.com Please be carefull with .NET on Linux. I saw a presentation from a competitive analisys, that said only 10% of .NET is an open specification. Also, the beauty of .NET is their superstrong ecosystem of COTS (components off the shelf) that are available on the market. And they will work only on Wintel. Regards, Avi From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 20:29:55 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:29:55 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <1100636995.2682.31.camel@kyrre> man, 15.11.2004 kl. 23.24 skrev Ziga Mahkovec: > On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 12:18 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > > It should be possible to start with a limited set of easily collected > > data and already get a useful picture. Useful data collection could be > > as simple as taking a snapshot of the data that the "top" program > > displays a few times a second during boot. That already gives you a > > list of the running processes, their states, and some statistics about > > global system load. > > So I gave this a try: > > 1. I modified the boot procedure so that early in rc.sysinit, a tmpfs is > mounted and top is run in batch mode (to output every 0.2 seconds). The > logged output is later parsed only up to the point where gdmgreeter is > running and the system is relatively idle (i.e. boot complete and ready > for login). > > 2. A Java program parses the log file, builds the process tree and > finally renders a PNG chart. Processes are sorted by PID and traversed > depth first. > > This still needs more work but here's a sneak preview: > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart.png > > (as a result of http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootop.log.gz ) > > Some processes were filtered out for clarity -- mostly sleepy kernel > processes and the ones that only live for the duration of a single top > sample. This skews the chart a bit but is definitely more > comprehensible (compare with > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-complete.png ). > > Some things I plan on adding: > - start logging earlier in the boot process (possibly in initrd), > - add additional layers (e.g. make use of the kernel patch Arjan > suggested for showing the number of open files), > - improve process tree representation and add dependency lines, > - render SVG instead, for scalability and interactivity. > > This definitely helped me with my boot times -- the 4-second load gap at > the start I found to be "modprobe floppy", apparently timing out on my > floppyless laptop :) > > Ah! that's why the floppy ligth flashes during "kudzu" (at the end of it) :) > Any ideas or comments are welcome, > -- > Ziga From strange at nsk.no-ip.org Tue Nov 16 19:31:38 2004 From: strange at nsk.no-ip.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:31:38 +0000 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116202227.44a35a58@nausicaa.camperquake.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116202227.44a35a58@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <20041116193138.GA27979@nsk.no-ip.org> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 08:22:27PM +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > Hi. > > Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > > > Without rhgb and readahead: > > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-norhgbreadahead.png > > (boot time: 0:51 -- so these guys obviously don't play well together) > > This shows what I have "felt" while watching my machine crawl though the > boot process: as soon as the syslog daemon comes up, everything gets a > lot slower. Well, syslogd syncs on every message written, and the boot process spews a lot of information. The first thing I did when installing to my laptop was to disable the sync (slow harddisk). Perhaps the default could be changed to do syncs only a few minutes after starting up? Regards, Luciano Rocha From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 20:38:48 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:38:48 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> Message-ID: <1100637528.2682.33.camel@kyrre> tir, 16.11.2004 kl. 10.13 skrev Troels Arvin: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:35:00 -0500, Phillip Compton wrote: > > > scribus - DTP > > inkscape - Vector Graphics > > lcms - Color Management > > I don't know about lcms, but the others sound like candidates for Fedora > Extras, as they aren't exactly "core" components. lcms is a dep. for scribus. I know, since i have many times hunted a lot for such an RPM. From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 20:43:01 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:43:01 +0100 Subject: wiki at fedora.us Message-ID: <1100637781.2682.36.camel@kyrre> Could somebody please do something about this: - Fedora Core 3: Coming soon http://www.fedora.us/wiki/FedoraSources#yum From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 20:44:50 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:44:50 +0100 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: References: <1100624303.3515.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100637890.2682.38.camel@kyrre> tir, 16.11.2004 kl. 18.50 skrev Rex Dieter: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004, Per Bjornsson wrote: > > > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 09:32 -0600, Rex Dieter wrote: > >> Any ideas/pointers on getting FC3 running on (MS) VirtualPC (2004)? It > >> installs fine, but doesn't completely get into multiuser (or even > >> single-user) mode after that. Can't get in far enough to much snooping > >> around or even look at the logs. > > > > Any idea where it stops? Do you get any text at all on the screen? > > After further investigation (googling, newsgroups, etc), it seems > VirtualPC cannot run with the 4G/4G kernel patch applied (so it appears to > be a VirtualPC bug/issue). I'll see if installing with a rebuilt kernel > without that patch works (I strongly suspect it will). VPC is a M$ product right? Then Fedora not working is probably a feature, not a bug... From casimiro_barreto at uol.com.br Tue Nov 16 20:52:30 2004 From: casimiro_barreto at uol.com.br (Casimiro de Almeida Barreto) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:52:30 -0200 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> <1100633253.2682.5.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100638350.3856.89.camel@200-170-107-71.user.ajato.com.br> Em Ter, 2004-11-16 ?s 17:09 -0300, Avi Alkalay escreveu: (...) > > Unfortunatelly this is not true. I worked with several Windows > developers that were starting projects on Linux, and they couldn't > wait for the day they'll go back to Windows IDEs. Linux is a > wonderfull platform for developers as long as they have that > hacker-spirit, as we have :-). In fact, there are three points do consider: a) Most people who started programming MS Windows won't migrate to Linux not for any intrinsic advantages or disadvantages of any given environment, but due to the specialization of thought developed with experience. Things that work well under MS environment are just garbage under Linux environment and vice-versa. b) Good engineers, analists and programmers relly in modelling, analising, testing... etc... So, the "visual programming environments" that became popular in Microsoft Environment brought poor gain for quality. Most of times people is just doing interfaces and prototypes. c) Most of the first batch of Linux programmers came from scientific environments where the use of personal computers were not suitable (note the past tense), but the use of mainframe computers (like 3090s, A-7000s, etc) were extremely unconfortable. Thus they were looking for more "personal computer like" environments for their tasks. Windows is no better nor worse than other OSs. It just fill its place among other programming environments. Certainly it was not devised for performance processing or for tasks other than desktop computing, hence the problems (poor performance, poor scalation, security, etc) faced by Windows servers. MS has compensated poor performance with stronger hardware requirements. For me, that's ok if people want to pay the price, as long as purchasing more and more expensive hardware keeps being a viable solution. What people must keep in mind is: a) How far will they (MS) go ? b) How free people want to be to choose among several "flavours" of the same OS ? c) What is the need for power development tools ? d) How much people need to adhere to international open standards ? e) How much open interfaces (programming, user, etc) are needed ? f) Ok, my application must scale, so how much I know of the "guts" of the OS, compilers, etc... to achieve the best results ? g) .... Then it gets easy to decide using Linux or MS. I don't think being more or less hacker has anything to do with the decision of using Linux or not. > Microsoft's most killer apps are their IDEs and development > frameworks. Because they know how strategic is to have the developers > (killer and business apps) working for them. > Now, except for entreteirment applications, it is getting harder and harder to find MS "killer" applications... and I really think that that's all right not wasting money trying to bring pandora boxes like activex and the likes to linux. So wine is a good alternative. > Regards, > Avi > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josh.bressers at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 20:54:50 2004 From: josh.bressers at gmail.com (Josh Bressers) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:54:50 -0500 Subject: wiki at fedora.us In-Reply-To: <1100637781.2682.36.camel@kyrre> References: <1100637781.2682.36.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:43:01 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > Could somebody please do something about this: > > - Fedora Core 3: > Coming soon > > http://www.fedora.us/wiki/FedoraSources#yum > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > It's a Wiki. Anyone can change it, feel free. -- JB From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 20:53:52 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:53:52 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100634962.14162.43.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> <1100634962.14162.43.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> Message-ID: <1100638432.2682.44.camel@kyrre> tir, 16.11.2004 kl. 20.56 skrev Sean Middleditch: > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 20:20 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > man, 15.11.2004 kl. 21.23 skrev Alan Cox: > > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 09:08:08PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > > Mainly curious, but - why should people drop Windows (which they know, > > > > most of their programs often only runns there etc) and swich to Linux? > > > > > > IMHO If you don't know why it would help someone don't try and make them change > > > > > > > Mainly i have had them switch on technical/ideological reasons. But the > > "ordinary guy" - why should he/she switch? > > He shouldn't. There's no compelling reason that the average guy cares > about. Even if Linux was 100% perfectly easy to use and had tons of > great apps, there *still* wouldn't be a compelling reason to switch for > the average guy. And they shouldn't have to. Your Operating System is > just a means to an end. > > Linux has several advantages over Windows: > - Better development platform (average guy doesn't care) > - More secure (average guy don't understand or care about viruses, > security is often a hindrance in their opinion) > - Little to no cost (average guy gets his OS with his computer, doesn't > care) > - Freedom (meaningless even to most developers, where the computer is a > tool and not a political statement, average guy doesn't care) > - Many technological improvements (average guy doesn't care) > > Linux has several disadvantages over Windows: > - Different (many average guys don't want change) > - Can't run the latest games the day they come out (every average guy I > know cares about this one) > - Can't run the silly browser-ActiveX controls on this week's popular > joke/game web site (average guys may care about these) > - Can't run the silly low-quality near-pointless Windows app that his > Aunt gave him (even if the Linux/OSS equivalent is far superior, the > average guy does not want to have to find and install said app, he just > wants to stick in the CD his aunt gave him and have it work) > - Usability still sucks eggs (absolutely biggest gripe of all time - > third-party application and driver installation, which over here in > reality-land, happens very often, especially in the case of mainstream > commercial games) > > End verdict? Average guy has absolutely no reason to switch to Linux, > and has good reason to switch *off* of Linux. Which is *exactly* what > I've seen happen with every single home Linux installation I've known > about except for mine. In the end, they switch to Windows. They even > go and pay $200 for a copy out of their pocket, thus disproving the myth > that Linux' low-cost is all that important to home users. > > Here's a cool idea. Don't do something unless you have a reason. You > are doing one of the dumbest mistakes in the book - you have a solution > (switch to Linux) and you're looking for a problem (reason to switch). > DON'T DO THAT! > > Find a problem *first*, and then look for a solution. Even most of the > problems you'll find on Windows can be best fixed with a solution other > than replacing the entire operating system and all applications with > Linux and OSS alternatives. But then Novel, RedHat, part of the comunity etc. - i.e. firms and people involved - should give them that reason. We should produce those "cool" things everybody just got to have - and the solution is Linux! Mac has understood this. Now "everybody" wants a mac. first thing i can come up with (maybe not so usefull, but really cool) that *might* be a killer app is Sun's looking glas 3D desktop. http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/ Kyrre From mike at navi.cx Tue Nov 16 21:01:26 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:01:26 +0000 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:52:08 -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > Java is an open specification with a closed source JVM implementation. > Sun actually likes projects like Kaffe, and other opensource JVM > implementations. > Same openness for Inte/AMD and IBM PC/Whitebox. Well, if by open specification you mean documented then yeah but so is Win32 ;) > What I know is that lawyers advised IBM to not offer Wine solutions. Its > almost the same with OpenOffice.org (for other legal reasons), but for > this last one the value you get is soooo big that we are fighting these > lawyers. I'm not saying that Wine doesn't have that value. I use it > everyday and it works well. But IMHO, I'd like to not depend on it in > the near future. Well, this shows that lawyers are usually very conservative. Why? Because if they warn people of possibly impending doom and nothing happens, they don't get fired. If they don't warn people and then doom does happen, they do. Open source projects are all together in the same boat. > The so called FUD was not intentional. I apologise. I'm just telling you > the experiences I've had with customers. Expading my point: companies > are buying the idea that server-side applications centralization and > integration, with a web/portal approach, is the right way to go, so a > Wine-based solution feels like temporary, and sometimes does not worth > the effort and migration costs. Ah yes, web apps. This works for some things. However: a) Not all programs work as web apps. Two examples I've worked on lately: medical hardware monitoring software (written for win3.1, no source code!), electronics design software (graphics intensive) b) Convincing companies to rewrite debugged and tested software as web apps is pretty tricky c) No guarantee web apps are portable. Internet Explorer is one of the most popular apps to run on Wine, and we (CodeWeavers) routinely improve it for corporate customers. Why? Because they have web apps that were written using ASP and require IE. Sad, I know .... can't make any assumptions about the competence of the people writing the web software though :( > Yes, it is a rocky path. But (real story follows:) imagine a company > that has 7000 VB apps spread all around. An IT services company can't > say "Lets test your apps on Wine, and then we'll know if it is good for > you, and give you a contract to sign for the migration service". It is > just too risky and too much (free) pre-sales work that nobody can > afford. Yep, I know. It is very tricky indeed. However, you don't have to do it as pre-sales. Look at it this way: * You don't have to migrate the whole company at once. Desktops can be moved department by department. It's *very* unlikely that every user needs every app, so you can take it slowly over a period of years. * It doesn't have to be pre-sales. If the company has 7000 VB apps (I can easily believe this is true) and they want to migrate to Linux they are either going to have to rewrite them or use Wine. If they work out of the box on Wine then great, you only have the cost of testing them. If they don't you have the cost of making them work. You would have had cost anyway though due to the rewrite. Using VB apps on a non-Windows platform will always have cost. This applies even to rolling out service packs so IT departments are used to doing these calculations. > Great. This means that Wine has an excelent ecosystem and it is mature. > I hope lawyers can change their opinion about Wine, because it is a > great open source project. I suspect the only way to change lawyers opinions is to prove them wrong, judging from past history ... I agree this is off-topic but at the same time, I feel strongly this is a conversation the community needs to have. After all there's no point writing an OS if hardly anybody uses it, we'd be the next BeOS! So I think I'll hit send anyway and feel guilty for a bit ... thanks -mike From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 20:55:56 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:55:56 +0100 Subject: wiki at fedora.us In-Reply-To: References: <1100637781.2682.36.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100638556.2682.46.camel@kyrre> tir, 16.11.2004 kl. 21.54 skrev Josh Bressers: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:43:01 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > wrote: > > Could somebody please do something about this: > > > > - Fedora Core 3: > > Coming soon > > > > http://www.fedora.us/wiki/FedoraSources#yum > > > > -- > > fedora-devel-list mailing list > > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > > > > It's a Wiki. Anyone can change it, feel free. > > -- > JB I know, but i don't feel competent enough to do it :) From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Tue Nov 16 21:07:54 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:07:54 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100638432.2682.44.camel@kyrre> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> <1100634962.14162.43.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1100638432.2682.44.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100639274.14162.54.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> This getting off-topic for this list. Please send future replies to me and not the list. Or at least move this to fedora-list and not the development list. On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 21:53 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > But then Novel, RedHat, part of the comunity etc. - i.e. firms and > people involved - should give them that reason. We should produce those > "cool" things everybody just got to have - and the solution is Linux! I think you missed half of what I said. There is nothing you can produce on Linux that isn't going to also exist in some form on Windows, and there will still be tons of things on Windows that don't exist on Linux. Again, what is the "problem" you are trying to solve? You even did exactly what I told you not to do - you just shouted out that "the solution is Linux!" without stating what it's a solution to. You want to convert Windows users for absolutely no good reason that I can ascertain. > > Mac has understood this. Now "everybody" wants a mac. No, they don't. Less people want a Mac than the people who want a Linux PC, according to some counts. The only people I've ever seen want a Mac were people who were already using Linux, or people who's family or workplace were already Mac-users. The average guy does not want a Mac for the exact same reason that the average guy does not want Linux. The only real thing Macs do better than Linux is software installation, namely in that it's possible without using a shell or needing deep yum/apt-foo. > > first thing i can come up with (maybe not so usefull, but really cool) > that *might* be a killer app is Sun's looking glas 3D desktop. > > http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/ If that is what the OSS movement calls a killer app then it's painfully clear why people stick with Windows. That app has absolutely no practical purpose. It's eye candy at most, and it isn't even particularly *good* eye candy. Most of the demos I've seen of it show all these 3D structures that actually make the desktop *harder* to use. Looking Glass people did the exact same thing I accused you of doing - they found a solution without a problem. They have no freakin' clue what to do with Looking Glass or how to make it useful to anyone, but they developed it anyhow just because they can. > > Kyrre > -- Sean Middleditch AwesomePlay Productions, Inc. From sriharivijayaraghavan at yahoo.com.au Tue Nov 16 21:08:51 2004 From: sriharivijayaraghavan at yahoo.com.au (Srihari Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:08:51 +1100 (EST) Subject: [PROBLEM] FC3 and Grub installation Message-ID: <20041116210851.12801.qmail@web52604.mail.yahoo.com> Please refer to this bugzilla bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=137789 Although the developer/maintainer is convinced that this is no bug, I am afraid this is not so. (I am sorry Jeremy.) Here is the procedure I follow: 1. Install FC2 (yes, FC2) on /dev/hda1 and choose to install Grub on MBR (/dev/hda) 2. Install the shiny new FC3 on /dev/hda2 (in my case it was on /dev/hda16) and choose to install grub on the first sector of /dev/hda2 rather than on MBR. (Please ask me 'why', if you want to, but I am convinced I am doing nothing wrong in this step.) 3. Configure FC2's grub to chain load FC3's grub. 4. And observe it does not work. Could somebody tell me what am I doing wrong here? And has anybody else seen this behaviour? (I swear to God that I have followed this procedure from the days of RH 6.0, SuSE 7.0, Debian 2 etc. and never had a problem until FC3.) Thank you. Hari. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Tue Nov 16 21:13:00 2004 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:13:00 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <20041116170850.2670b3d9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <20041116105535.2a089ab1.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <20041116170850.2670b3d9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <20041116211300.GA10830@neu.nirvana> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 05:08:50PM +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:55:35 +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > > > [...] fedora.us (which was in turn partly based on my packages, > > Dag's packages and other packages...) > > Matthias, you write "partly", but the way you write it ("and other > packages"), you make it sound as if the number of derived packages would > be worth mentioning at all. Once again you need some memory push ups ;) fedora.us started off mainly as a clone of freshrpms http://www.fedora.us/pipermail/fedora-devel/2003-February/000210.html: > 4) xine, mplayer, etc. > These packages would be vital to actually attract users to the > project. > More users would attract more attention, and perhaps more developers > would join us. Please help me convert Matthias' FreshRPMS to the > Fedora naming scheme. Oh, yes, I forgot, a lot of these packages moved to another repo ... And changelog striping was indeed very popular at the beginning of fedora.us. Please don't try to subvert facts and history. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 185 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fitzsim at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 21:18:53 2004 From: fitzsim at redhat.com (Thomas Fitzsimmons) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:18:53 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <1100639933.12712.11.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 14:09, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 20:05 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > > Wow, this is fabulous work, and fast too! > > Thanks :) > > > What sort of libraries are you using in the Java program? Do you have > > any idea whether getting it to run on top of open source Java would > > be feasible? > > I'm using the java2d and imageio packages with IBM's JDK. It doesn't > work out of the box with libgcj though, so I'll have to come up to speed > with the java2d/cairo development. Alternatively, I can always drop the > alpha/antialias pertiness. Or switch to SVG instead and let librsvg do > the work. > You tried this on the FC3 libgcj? The most current java2d/cairo work is happening on the java-gui-branch in gcc CVS and lots of improvements have gone in since we branched the FC3 libgcj. Once the code that generates these graphs is available we can make it work on open source Java. Tom From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Tue Nov 16 21:44:13 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:44:13 -0700 Subject: FC4 wishes Message-ID: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> While everyone is adding there own. I add mine, which should be fairly simple to add. Right now, languages are system wide. I would like to see a list of valid system wide languages (on my machine, this would be various versions of US English, English, and various versions of Spanish). I also would like a default. (All of this to this point may be there, it seems it is... or maybe I hacked the files myself.) However, what isn't there is the ability to change languages on a user, by user basis. While what I am about to suggest isn't enforceable beyond a config tool (i.e. someone can hack the files), I would like this list given to the user (under Gnome or KDE preferences, not system tools, etc.) to be limited to languages that were set as OK in the above paragraph. (I currently just have the bash_profile set the LANG environment variable.) Why? well, I would like to eventually have gnome translated into Tengwar/elvish (yes, using the characters and a keymap), I speak English and to some extend Spanish. My wife the same, but prefers to compute in Spanish. This would help out in such situations. Thanks for considering it. Trever -- "Yesterday is gone. Tomorrow is too far for me. Today is what I have, and what I fight for." -- Unknown From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Tue Nov 16 21:45:10 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:45:10 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 14:45 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Without rhgb and readahead: > > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-norhgbreadahead.png > > (boot time: 0:51 -- so these guys obviously don't play well together) > > I'd be curious to see what happens if you turn off synchronous logging. http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-asyncsyslog.png syslogd definitely behaves better. It also decreases boot time, though this is not immediately evident since kmodule took longer this time. I've observed this with kudzu probes before. -- Ziga From perbj at stanford.edu Tue Nov 16 21:47:13 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:47:13 -0800 Subject: Fedora.us rebuild [Re: wiki at fedora.us] In-Reply-To: References: <1100637781.2682.36.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100641633.3510.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 15:54 -0500, Josh Bressers wrote: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:43:01 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > wrote: > > Could somebody please do something about this: > > > > - Fedora Core 3: > > Coming soon > > > > http://www.fedora.us/wiki/FedoraSources#yum > > It's a Wiki. Anyone can change it, feel free. Perhaps the real problem is that the directory that it should be pointing to - the Fedora.us "extras" RPM directory for FC3 - is still empty? ;) (With the mirror list stuff in Yum and up2date it seems pretty pointless to ask people to point Yum to the download.fedora.us site I think, so the only relevant link there would be the one for extra packages.) Look at http://download.fedora.us , the directory is there but there is nothing in it.) Actually, what are the plans regarding a rebuild of Extras for FC3? In general I think the FC2 builds do work, but there are annoyances; e.g. C++ packages typically need the compat-libstdc++ package since they are built against an older version of the C++ standard library. (Notably this is true for Inkscape, I discovered this when Inkscape just didn't start after my FC3 upgrade.) Sure I can just rebuild most SRPMs but isn't the point of having repositories that people can just point to them and install stuff? Is this stalling on getting the Red Hat build infrastructure for Extras in place? Cheers, Per -- Per Bjornsson Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Tue Nov 16 21:48:21 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:48:21 +0100 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. "Trever L. Adams" wrote: > However, what isn't there is the ability to change languages on a user, Errrr.... echo "LANG=en_US" > ~/.i18n This has worked since at least RH9. And you can select your language at the gdm/kdm login screen. -- "Anonymous CVS heisst: Kein Einchecken, nur Auschecken. So eine Art inverses Hotel California." -- Kristian Koehntopp From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Tue Nov 16 21:51:44 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:51:44 -0700 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100641904.2736.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> And of course, as I test this (as I had only tested calling gedit from a shell where such was set) it doesn't work. So somehow this needs to be supported. Trever On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 14:44 -0700, Trever L. Adams wrote: > However, what isn't there is the ability to change languages on a user, > by user basis. While what I am about to suggest isn't enforceable beyond > a config tool (i.e. someone can hack the files), I would like this list > given to the user (under Gnome or KDE preferences, not system tools, > etc.) to be limited to languages that were set as OK in the above > paragraph. (I currently just have the bash_profile set the LANG > environment variable.) -- "Be not defeated twice, once by circumstances and once by oneself." -- Lowell L. Bennion From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Tue Nov 16 21:53:36 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:53:36 -0700 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Yes, but my wife doesn't know that much about computers. Second off, I currently don't use gdm. I have thought about it, but not yet. Trever On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 22:48 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > Hi. > > "Trever L. Adams" wrote: > > > However, what isn't there is the ability to change languages on a user, > > Errrr.... > > echo "LANG=en_US" > ~/.i18n > > This has worked since at least RH9. And you can select your language at > the gdm/kdm login screen. > > -- > "Anonymous CVS heisst: Kein Einchecken, nur Auschecken. So eine Art > inverses Hotel California." -- Kristian Koehntopp > -- "Yesterday is gone. Tomorrow is too far for me. Today is what I have, and what I fight for." -- Unknown From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 21:53:06 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:53:06 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100639274.14162.54.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> <1100634962.14162.43.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1100638432.2682.44.camel@kyrre> <1100639274.14162.54.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> Message-ID: <1100641985.4199.5.camel@kyrre> tir, 16.11.2004 kl. 22.07 skrev Sean Middleditch: > This getting off-topic for this list. Please send future replies to me > and not the list. Or at least move this to fedora-list and not the > development list. > > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 21:53 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > But then Novel, RedHat, part of the comunity etc. - i.e. firms and > > people involved - should give them that reason. We should produce those > > "cool" things everybody just got to have - and the solution is Linux! > > I think you missed half of what I said. There is nothing you can > produce on Linux that isn't going to also exist in some form on Windows, > and there will still be tons of things on Windows that don't exist on > Linux. > > Again, what is the "problem" you are trying to solve? You even did > exactly what I told you not to do - you just shouted out that "the > solution is Linux!" without stating what it's a solution to. You want > to convert Windows users for absolutely no good reason that I can > ascertain. > It is strictly a marketing problem. How to get Linux a bigger marketshare. > > > > Mac has understood this. Now "everybody" wants a mac. > > No, they don't. Less people want a Mac than the people who want a Linux > PC, according to some counts. The only people I've ever seen want a Mac > were people who were already using Linux, or people who's family or > workplace were already Mac-users. Well - two guys in my class got themselvs a mac. Now half the class wants a mac: - It looks shiny (including on-screen) - It has a shiny, lots-off-effects presentation program (keynote), which the mac crowd use to show off Technology and sales isn't anymore just about whats *practical* and whats *cheapest*. As long as a large bunch of the population don't know what RAM and MHZ is, they just go with the offer the salesman in the flashy suit offers him/her. > > The average guy does not want a Mac for the exact same reason that the > average guy does not want Linux. The only real thing Macs do better > than Linux is software installation, namely in that it's possible > without using a shell or needing deep yum/apt-foo. > synaptic? It can't get much easier than that... (okay. Nintendo has an easyer system) > > > > first thing i can come up with (maybe not so usefull, but really cool) > > that *might* be a killer app is Sun's looking glas 3D desktop. > > > > http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/ > > If that is what the OSS movement calls a killer app then it's painfully > clear why people stick with Windows. That app has absolutely no > practical purpose. It's eye candy at most, and it isn't even > particularly *good* eye candy. Most of the demos I've seen of it show > all these 3D structures that actually make the desktop *harder* to use. > > Looking Glass people did the exact same thing I accused you of doing - > they found a solution without a problem. They have no freakin' clue > what to do with Looking Glass or how to make it useful to anyone, but > they developed it anyhow just because they can. > I know - but you are looking at it from a strictly technical perspective. If Linux ever is going to be big on the desktop, it has to *look* good. > > > > Kyrre > > I see you point - but as long From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Tue Nov 16 21:56:05 2004 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:56:05 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100636995.2682.31.camel@kyrre> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100636995.2682.31.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <200411162256.05284.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Tuesday 16 November 2004 21:29, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > This definitely helped me with my boot times -- the 4-second load gap at > > the start I found to be "modprobe floppy", apparently timing out on my > > floppyless laptop :) > > Ah! that's why the floppy ligth flashes during "kudzu" (at the end of > it) :) The question is, who needs a floppy before the system is fully up? (The second question would be, who needs a floppy at all ;) -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Tue Nov 16 21:57:21 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:57:21 -0500 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100642241.14162.59.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 14:53 -0700, Trever L. Adams wrote: > Yes, but my wife doesn't know that much about computers. Second off, I > currently don't use gdm. I have thought about it, but not yet. Those are both problems on your end and not something Fedora should or even can solve for you. You need to either: a) teach your wife how to set her language, b) set it for her, c) use the graphical tools like GDM that Red Hat intends for you to use that allow the nice point-n-clicky setting of the language. -- Sean Middleditch AwesomePlay Productions, Inc. From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Tue Nov 16 21:57:25 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:57:25 +0100 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041116225725.51fbe7d4@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. "Trever L. Adams" wrote: > Yes, but my wife doesn't know that much about computers. Second off, I > currently don't use gdm. I have thought about it, but not yet. So you do not want to use the tool that FC presents you with, but you want another one included instead? -- Dare to slack: When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective lazyness. -- Despair Inc. calendar, May 2001 From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 22:01:27 2004 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:01:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: A single FC4 wish Message-ID: I wish that someone would volunteer to collect all these wishes, requests, and observations, and organize them into a single coherent picture of what people want in FC4. Without this, all these points are likely to be ignored because they're scattered through a thousand mailing list posts across multiple lists... Anyone? -- Elliot From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 21:58:18 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:58:18 +0100 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100642297.4199.7.camel@kyrre> change language in loginscreen, log her in, and answer "yes" to use as default. Or you could probably hack bashrc or some other loginscript... tir, 16.11.2004 kl. 22.53 skrev Trever L. Adams: > Yes, but my wife doesn't know that much about computers. Second off, I > currently don't use gdm. I have thought about it, but not yet. > > Trever > > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 22:48 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > > Hi. > > > > "Trever L. Adams" wrote: > > > > > However, what isn't there is the ability to change languages on a user, > > > > Errrr.... > > > > echo "LANG=en_US" > ~/.i18n > > > > This has worked since at least RH9. And you can select your language at > > the gdm/kdm login screen. > > > > -- > > "Anonymous CVS heisst: Kein Einchecken, nur Auschecken. So eine Art > > inverses Hotel California." -- Kristian Koehntopp > > > -- > "Yesterday is gone. Tomorrow is too far for me. Today is what I have, > and what I fight for." -- Unknown From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 21:59:23 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:59:23 +0100 Subject: Fedora.us rebuild [Re: wiki at fedora.us] In-Reply-To: <1100641633.3510.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100637781.2682.36.camel@kyrre> <1100641633.3510.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100642363.4199.9.camel@kyrre> tir, 16.11.2004 kl. 22.47 skrev Per Bjornsson: > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 15:54 -0500, Josh Bressers wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:43:01 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > > wrote: > > > Could somebody please do something about this: > > > > > > - Fedora Core 3: > > > Coming soon > > > > > > http://www.fedora.us/wiki/FedoraSources#yum > > > > It's a Wiki. Anyone can change it, feel free. > > Perhaps the real problem is that the directory that it should be > pointing to - the Fedora.us "extras" RPM directory for FC3 - is still > empty? ;) (With the mirror list stuff in Yum and up2date it seems pretty > pointless to ask people to point Yum to the download.fedora.us site I > think, so the only relevant link there would be the one for extra > packages.) Look at http://download.fedora.us , the directory is there > but there is nothing in it.) > > Actually, what are the plans regarding a rebuild of Extras for FC3? In > general I think the FC2 builds do work, but there are annoyances; e.g. > C++ packages typically need the compat-libstdc++ package since they are > built against an older version of the C++ standard library. (Notably > this is true for Inkscape, I discovered this when Inkscape just didn't > start after my FC3 upgrade.) Sure I can just rebuild most SRPMs but > isn't the point of having repositories that people can just point to > them and install stuff? Is this stalling on getting the Red Hat build > infrastructure for Extras in place? > > Cheers, > Per > Oops. I have been looking in the rpms.os dir... But the extras is empty. Damnit. From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Tue Nov 16 22:03:46 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:03:46 -0700 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <1100642241.14162.59.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100642241.14162.59.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> Message-ID: <1100642626.2736.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 16:57 -0500, Sean Middleditch wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 14:53 -0700, Trever L. Adams wrote: > > Yes, but my wife doesn't know that much about computers. Second off, I > > currently don't use gdm. I have thought about it, but not yet. > > Those are both problems on your end and not something Fedora should or > even can solve for you. You need to either: > > a) teach your wife how to set her language, > b) set it for her, > c) use the graphical tools like GDM that Red Hat intends for you to use > that allow the nice point-n-clicky setting of the language. > -- > Sean Middleditch > AwesomePlay Productions, Inc. > Normally, I would agree with you one hundred percent. However, it is often useful to change languages in the middle of a computing session. And maybe I am the only one who agrees with this. a) and b) I have set it for her and I will teach her. c) gdm causes problems on another computer. The bug was reported by someone else but doesn't seem to have changed, it also seems to be a bit bloated. As for not being able to, I am not asking for computer lessons for my wife, I can do that bit by bit myself. However, offering the tool inside of the session so it can be changed within the session (obviously only for newly started programs) is the right thing to do in my opinion. However, as I play with this, I find that the new applications pull the i18n data from already running pieces of the system. So, I suppose the entire point is useless. I will go away and be quiet. However, to blindly suggest that a problem is with the user, and not with a system design (for usability) is not accurate. Yes, if I didn't want to be able to change within a session, you are correct; HOWEVER such is far from the case. Trever -- "My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places." -- A. A. Milne (1882-1958) From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Tue Nov 16 22:05:00 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:05:00 -0700 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <20041116225725.51fbe7d4@nausicaa.camperquake.de> References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116225725.51fbe7d4@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <1100642700.2736.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 22:57 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > Hi. > > "Trever L. Adams" wrote: > > > Yes, but my wife doesn't know that much about computers. Second off, I > > currently don't use gdm. I have thought about it, but not yet. > > So you do not want to use the tool that FC presents you with, but you > want another one included instead? Please, see my response to Sean. This is about problems I have had with gdm and the fact I would like to change languages within a session, which currently is not possible for reasons I state in that email. Trever -- "Oh the nerves, the nerves; the mysteries of this machine called man! Oh the little that unhinges it, poor creatures that we are!" -- Charles Dickens (1812-70) From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Tue Nov 16 22:06:24 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 23:06:24 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <200411162256.05284.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100636995.2682.31.camel@kyrre> <200411162256.05284.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <1100642785.21407.11.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mardi 16 novembre 2004 ? 22:56 +0100, Ronny Buchmann a ?crit : > On Tuesday 16 November 2004 21:29, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > This definitely helped me with my boot times -- the 4-second load gap at > > > the start I found to be "modprobe floppy", apparently timing out on my > > > floppyless laptop :) > > > > Ah! that's why the floppy ligth flashes during "kudzu" (at the end of > > it) :) > The question is, who needs a floppy before the system is fully up? > > (The second question would be, who needs a floppy at all ;) Handy for kickstart & driver files. Or is anaconda able to read USB keys nowadays ? -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Tue Nov 16 22:08:23 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 23:08:23 +0100 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <1100642700.2736.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116225725.51fbe7d4@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100642700.2736.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041116230823.274b4a19@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. "Trever L. Adams" wrote: > Please, see my response to Sean. This is about problems I have had with > gdm and the fact I would like to change languages within a session, > which currently is not possible for reasons I state in that email. Well, why didn't you say so in your first session. Changing the language within a running session (for single programs) would be nice, agreed. Given the multiple ways a program can be started (and the way the programs determine the language to be used) this might turn out to be tricky. -- Extract from a customer complaint letter sent to The Body Shop... "I recently shampooed my pet rabbit with Body Shop shampoo. Its eyes bulged out and turned red. If you tested your stuff on animals like everyone else, this sort of thing wouldn't happen." From jrb at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 22:11:41 2004 From: jrb at redhat.com (Jonathan Blandford) Date: 16 Nov 2004 17:11:41 -0500 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <1100642626.2736.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100642241.14162.59.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1100642626.2736.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: "Trever L. Adams" writes: > Normally, I would agree with you one hundred percent. However, it is > often useful to change languages in the middle of a computing session. > And maybe I am the only one who agrees with this. Switching languages on the fly, while nice, isn't going to happen anytime soon. It's an enormous amount of work to get a graphical environment to relayout like that, and you'd have to rework a large chunk of the desktop. I'm afraid that you'll have to log out and back in again for the foreseeable future. Thanks, -Jonathan From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Tue Nov 16 22:16:04 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:16:04 -0600 Subject: [PROBLEM] FC3 and Grub installation In-Reply-To: <20041116210851.12801.qmail@web52604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00de01c4cc29$dd2cc240$4801a8c0@C515816A> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Srihari Vijayaraghavan > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:09 PM > To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > Subject: [PROBLEM] FC3 and Grub installation > > Please refer to this bugzilla bug: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=137789 > > Although the developer/maintainer is convinced that > this is no bug, I am afraid this is not so. (I am > sorry Jeremy.) > > Here is the procedure I follow: > 1. Install FC2 (yes, FC2) on /dev/hda1 and choose to > install Grub on MBR (/dev/hda) > 2. Install the shiny new FC3 on /dev/hda2 (in my case > it was on /dev/hda16) and choose to install grub on > the first sector of /dev/hda2 rather than on MBR. > (Please ask me 'why', if you want to, but I am > convinced I am doing nothing wrong in this step.) > 3. Configure FC2's grub to chain load FC3's grub. > 4. And observe it does not work. > > Could somebody tell me what am I doing wrong here? > > And has anybody else seen this behaviour? > > (I swear to God that I have followed this procedure > from the days of RH 6.0, SuSE 7.0, Debian 2 etc. and > never had a problem until FC3.) > > Thank you. > Hari. > > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. > http://au.movies.yahoo.com > > -- I think if you think about the boot procedure you will determine what you are doing wrong. Ask your self the question, how will you boot from sector in a partition after booting from the MBR? Ans. It won't happen. So what is the problem. You are booting from the MBR period and is getting the grub.conf for FC2 and what is in that file cause that is what can be booted. Now if I remember my GRUB manual chain loading is done for foreign OS's and FC3 is not a foreign OS. In the install of FC3 I don't see that you had to do anything. GRUB should have found all os's and updated the right grub.conf with the correct entries. Now I might be incorrect but this is my opinion. From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Tue Nov 16 22:22:00 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:22:00 -0700 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100642241.14162.59.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1100642626.2736.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100643720.2786.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 17:11 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > "Trever L. Adams" writes: > > > Normally, I would agree with you one hundred percent. However, it is > > often useful to change languages in the middle of a computing session. > > And maybe I am the only one who agrees with this. > > Switching languages on the fly, while nice, isn't going to happen > anytime soon. It's an enormous amount of work to get a graphical > environment to relayout like that, and you'd have to rework a large > chunk of the desktop. I'm afraid that you'll have to log out and back > in again for the foreseeable future. > > Thanks, > -Jonathan > Hey, Jonathan, I am glad you and Ralf see it my way. I am not saying change the language for the entire session. I am saying change the language for any newly opened instance of an application. Yes, the other would be nice, but I knew that wasn't going to happen. However, for all those people telling me that gdm solves the problem, I have tested this, it shows EVERY language, not the ones shown as valid (in /etc/system-config/i18n) for my system. I don't know, maybe this is best, but to make it simpler for machines with fewer languages being used, it would be nice. Ralf, I am sorry I didn't state it clearly (and maybe not at all) earlier. Have a good one. Trever -- "Black holes are where God divided by zero." -- Unknown From davej at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 22:23:37 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:23:37 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 08:09:01PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > > - What does GNOME login look like? > If I parse up to the point where gnome-panel is running and the system > is 90% idle: > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-login.png One thing that really sticks out in this one for me is rhn-applet-gui. That thing is just huge. I booted my machine an hour ago, and here's what top has to say about it.. PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 3370 davej 26 10 198m 26m 182m S 0.0 1.3 0:01.50 rhn-applet-gui ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WOW. -------------------' It's not even _doing_ anything right now. (digs out strace). Ugh.. It's stuck in a loop polling a socket. ioctl(14, FIONREAD, [0]) = 0 poll([{fd=9, events=POLLIN}, {fd=11, events=POLLIN|POLLPRI}, {fd=14, events=POLLIN}, {fd=3, events=POLLIN}, {fd=5, events=POLLIN|POLLPRI}, {fd=6, events=POLLIN|POLLPRI}, {fd=13, events=POLLIN|POLLPRI}, {fd=15, events=POLLIN|POLLPRI}], 8, 99) = 0 This thing really needs to go to sleep more often. Ugh, it got worse.. 3370 davej 26 10 200m 28m 185m S 0.0 1.4 0:02.10 rhn-applet-gui Dave From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Tue Nov 16 22:28:16 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 23:28:16 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. Dave Jones wrote: > One thing that really sticks out in this one for me > is rhn-applet-gui. That thing is just huge. That's the flashy "update me" thingy in the notification area, right? First thing I kill after reinstalling :) -- Q276304 - Error Message: Your Password Must Be at Least 18770 Characters and Cannot Repeat Any of Your Previous 30689 Passwords (http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q276/3/04.ASP) From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 22:30:12 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:30:12 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <20041116223012.GG10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 12:13:35PM -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > Well, it is better to let some Red Hatter to respond that, but I can > tell that IBM will never propose some migration solution based on Wine > because it is an open implementation of a proprietary thing. In other > words, it is proprietary, which means "legal issues". Windows APIs are > a propriety of Microsoft. API's are not copyrightable as I understand it. Wine isn't exactly an enterprise supportable product unless you have a team of windows and wine wizards (like the crossover office guys), and even they can only hit a fixed set of programs > Other minor Wine issues are: > - Businesses look at it as an ad-hoc solution > - You can't be sure if all your apps will run there Qemu might also be a more useful path to windoze license holders for business apps anyway From davej at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 22:34:18 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:34:18 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 11:28:16PM +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > > One thing that really sticks out in this one for me > > is rhn-applet-gui. That thing is just huge. > That's the flashy "update me" thingy in the notification area, right? > First thing I kill after reinstalling :) Yes. Also known as "evil force of forceful evil" in some circles. Dave From mike at navi.cx Tue Nov 16 22:39:26 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:39:26 +0000 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041116223012.GG10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:30:12 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > Qemu might also be a more useful path to windoze license holders for business > apps anyway You can run Windows-in-a-box, but then you're not really migrating to Linux or free software are you? You're just inventing new ways to run Windows but slower. I'm not sure what kind of IT department would go for a "migration" based on VMware or QEmu. Don't get me wrong, they're great tools. I use them myself. But they aren't the right path for business desktop migration. As for Wine not being enterprise supportable ... well, neither was the kernel until companies like Red Hat got involved. They hired kernel wizards like you, got behind the product and turned it into a successful enterprise product (as did many other companies). Nothing magic about Wine that says the same couldn't happen. Already is, to some extent. From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 23:06:34 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:06:34 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <20041116230634.GS10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 08:20:19PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > Of course they may well love firefox, and being able to save money with > > openoffice etc.... > > But openoffice and firefox runs on windows as well. Precisely. Show them stuff that does benefit them now and directly. They have to get from beginning to end in steps that they understand, opt into and help them. From perbj at stanford.edu Tue Nov 16 23:13:43 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:13:43 -0800 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041116223012.GG10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100646823.3510.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 22:39 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:30:12 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > Qemu might also be a more useful path to windoze license holders for business > > apps anyway Virtualization sounds more likely to provide a somewhat sane solution than emulation to me, how is emulation ever going to be anything but dog slow? Now, for running the occasional i386 binary on PPC or something, fine, but for general use? [Note: I'm not against emulation per se, there's lots of other interesting uses for system emulation but I'm not convinced that running an OS on top of another for general business use is one of them.] > You can run Windows-in-a-box, but then you're not really migrating to > Linux or free software are you? You're just inventing new ways to run > Windows but slower. I'm not sure what kind of IT department would go for a > "migration" based on VMware or QEmu. Well, it could well be part of a migration path: if there are some legacy apps stuck on Windows for now, it could be useful to be able to run those in a VM while the rest of the desktop is Linux. Hey, apparently some companies use VMware to run crufty old versions of Windows in a protected setting to keep crap legacy apps alive. Of course it's not a long-term solution, it's a migration band-aid. Do you think that Wine is the correct long-term solution in the situation though? I'd say that one would hope for the long-term fix to be a sane combination of native apps and web apps etc. > As for Wine not being enterprise supportable ... well, neither was the > kernel until companies like Red Hat got involved. They hired kernel > wizards like you, got behind the product and turned it into a successful > enterprise product (as did many other companies). Nothing magic about Wine > that says the same couldn't happen. Already is, to some extent. Why are you trying to convince Red Hat to pick up CodeWeavers' business model? ;) /Per -- Per Bjornsson Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 23:20:48 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:20:48 -0500 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041116232048.GU10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 02:44:13PM -0700, Trever L. Adams wrote: > However, what isn't there is the ability to change languages on a user, > by user basis. While what I am about to suggest isn't enforceable beyond Oh yes there is, you can change it per application. Try the language menu in gdm, or use LANG=. I use it a fair bit as I run my desktop in Welsh for learning practice but sometimes have to run config tools in en_GB at the moment. From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 23:29:40 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:29:40 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 05:34:18PM -0500, Dave Jones wrote: > > > One thing that really sticks out in this one for me > > > is rhn-applet-gui. That thing is just huge. > > That's the flashy "update me" thingy in the notification area, right? > > First thing I kill after reinstalling :) > > Yes. Also known as "evil force of forceful evil" in some circles. Utterly. On multihead boxes I've seen it take 30% of the total CPU time and 20% of the network bandwidth. Its eeeeevil because it should be a service daemon so it runs *ONCE* and it should chat over dbus or something to the display which -should-not-flash- - it's very bad UI design (movement out of the user focus area is distracting) and sucks resources. If someone could have that fixed and in testing tomorrow that would be fantastic ;) Alan From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 23:31:30 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:31:30 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041116223012.GG10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041116233130.GX10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 10:39:26PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > kernel until companies like Red Hat got involved. They hired kernel > wizards like you, got behind the product and turned it into a successful > enterprise product (as did many other companies). Nothing magic about Wine > that says the same couldn't happen. Already is, to some extent. Every company has finite resources, markets, core areas of competency and all the other buzzwords. We can't fix everything 8) From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 23:36:05 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:36:05 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <20041116233130.GX10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041116223012.GG10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116233130.GX10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: One question to Red Hatters: Why Wine was removed from the distro ? Avi From mike at navi.cx Tue Nov 16 23:42:43 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 23:42:43 +0000 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041116223012.GG10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100646823.3510.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:13:43 -0800, Per Bjornsson wrote: > Well, it could well be part of a migration path: if there are some > legacy apps stuck on Windows for now, it could be useful to be able to > run those in a VM while the rest of the desktop is Linux. Hey, > apparently some companies use VMware to run crufty old versions of > Windows in a protected setting to keep crap legacy apps alive. What does that get you? Why is running Linux for email/web + Windows for the apps you use to get your work done better than running Windows for email/web/apps you use to get work done? If you run Windows in a VM you still have to maintain it, keep it up to date, free of viruses and make sure it can log onto the network so random-business-app can read your $HOME etc, so you're effectively maintaining two computers instead of one. > Of course it's not a long-term solution, it's a migration band-aid. Do > you think that Wine is the correct long-term solution in the situation > though? I'd say that one would hope for the long-term fix to be a sane > combination of native apps and web apps etc. Depends on the type of app. For retail apps like Photoshop yep of course I want to see native versions. There are advantages to doing this. Of course, native and free-speech software is even better. For random custom VB apps and the like yeah, I think Wine is the long term solution. It's really a matter of philosophy. What does making an app native (or a portable web app) get you? Well ... it makes it integrate better with the host environment, uses native file pickers and themes etc. Wine has some basic theming support, maybe one day it'll be complete, but still native apps will usually integrate better. It means you're less likely to hit tricky bottlenecks or hard to map features. Native libraries are wider used so more likely to be bug free. What else? A bit faster, I guess, though subjectively I can't tell the difference between Wine apps and GTK2 apps these days, except in a few pathological cases. Word still starts in a few seconds relative to ~30 for OpenOffice, so Wine doesn't mean slow. IE still starts and renders pages as fast as Firefox, to my eye. So there are advantages. Where the ratio of developers:users is really huge, like for retail software, it makes sense. You can get a leg-up in the marketplace by giving your app that extra polish implied by going native. But most software isn't sold on shop shelves. Are these advantages so great that they justify humanity collectively rewriting thousands of man-years of work to use the API du-jour? Is this a useful way for the human race to spend its time? Or should we simply continue to run legacy apps like we always did, and write new software to use newer/better/more free APIs, maybe migrating old apps slowly over time, as it makes sense to do so? Well, this position is definitely arguable, but I'd say the latter. I can't think of a single compelling reason why everybody should rewrite *all* their software. It just doesn't make economic nor social sense. We could be spending that time writing *better* software that actually moves society forward in some meaningful way, rather than simply changing CreateWindowEx() -> gtk_window_new() which for the effort expended achieves very little. > Why are you trying to convince Red Hat to pick up CodeWeavers' business > model? ;) Heh. I'd be happy for them to support free software as a Windows migration path. Even if they decide to compete with CodeWeavers (unlikely), I haven't noticed the presence of SuSE or IBM in the market hurting Red Hat any. Currently the RH "What do we do about Windows?" strategy seems to involve hand-waving, web apps and VMware. This isn't surprising, RH have always been a Linux company so they have little experience with large desktop migrations, entrenched users, unwilling 3rd party vendors etc. Novell are getting this experience now. I'd *love* for RH management to give their backing to the Wine project, but I suspect they'll first spend some years nicely asking vendors to rewrite their software as web apps, or nicely asking existing web app vendors to please not depend on ActiveX/IE specific DHTML/ASP etc. Unfortunately, some apps will probably never even be ported. Why? Sometimes it's because it's not economically viable, sometimes the source code has been lost (this is more common than you might think!), sometimes it's so heavily dependent upon Windows APIs a port would imply starting from scratch (see Open Workbench for an example), and sometimes it's simply been abandoned by its creators: the shelf-life of a game for instance before the developers stop caring about it is about 6-12 months. After that time is up they're unlikely to even patch it, let alone do ports. Oh yes, and some of it is made by Microsoft, see eg BizTalk or MS Project which have no native (free or non-free) equivalents. I'm sure lots of programs will become web apps or be ported to native APIs in future. But saying it *all* will just makes me realise how little experience our community has with large-scale desktop migrations. thanks -mike From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 23:41:53 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:41:53 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100646823.3510.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041116223012.GG10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100646823.3510.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041116234153.GD10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 03:13:43PM -0800, Per Bjornsson wrote: > than emulation to me, how is emulation ever going to be anything but dog > slow? Now, for running the occasional i386 binary on PPC or something, qemu at the moment isn't that bright on code generation. A good code generator plus friendly kernel (non 4G/4G) ought to get a good percentage of native speed. In essence Qemu is a JIT, just not a brilliant one yet... From davej at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 23:43:50 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:43:50 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 06:29:40PM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > Utterly. On multihead boxes I've seen it take 30% of the total CPU time > and 20% of the network bandwidth. Its eeeeevil because it should be a > service daemon so it runs *ONCE* and it should chat over dbus or something > to the display which -should-not-flash- - it's very bad UI design (movement > out of the user focus area is distracting) and sucks resources. It also gets 'stuck' sometimes, making the user believe that everything is up to date, whilst running up2date -l, or yum will find packages that need updating. I've also seen it claim updates are available that running up2date on the command line can't find. *boggle* The whole thing needs a bullet in its head imo. I never thought I'd say it, but after having recently bought a mac for my wife, Apple did something right. They have something (possibly a cron job) that looks for updates at a user specified interval, and if nothing is found, it does nothing. You don't even know it checked. If it does find something, it pops up a dialog. None of this flashing red bubble nonsense. The whole time you're blissfully unaware of this going on, which is a big win memory footprint wise. I've heard from other quarters that even Microsoft's update notifier is becoming more sensible than ours. They even have a 'download the updates in the background when things are idle' option aparently, which sounds cute. (think I'd rather be around when it applies them though). > If someone could have that fixed and in testing tomorrow that would be > fantastic ;) Wouldn't it be great ? They'd be my fedora hero-of-the-day. Dave From thomasz at hostmaster.org Tue Nov 16 23:46:32 2004 From: thomasz at hostmaster.org (Thomas Zehetbauer) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:46:32 +0100 Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100648792.7343.50.camel@hostmaster.org> I think that should be done in bugzilla, but: 1.) developers should not close bugs/RFEs just because they do not want to fix it NOW 2.) there should be a voting system like the one on mozilla.org Tom -- T h o m a s Z e h e t b a u e r ( TZ251 ) PGP encrypted mail preferred - KeyID 96FFCB89 finger thomasz at hostmaster.org for key Sacrilegia minuta puniuntur, magna in triumphis feruntur - Seneca -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 481 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 23:48:42 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:48:42 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041116234842.GF10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 06:43:50PM -0500, Dave Jones wrote: > mac for my wife, Apple did something right. They have something > (possibly a cron job) that looks for updates at a user specified > interval, and if nothing is found, it does nothing. You don't even > know it checked. If it does find something, it pops up a dialog. > None of this flashing red bubble nonsense. The whole time you're > blissfully unaware of this going on, which is a big win > memory footprint wise. That didn't go down well in some places. One of the problems with automatic updates and any network tool that is impolite is when your box does a major update over your GPRS phone at ?3.50 per megabyte, or clogs a customer wireless network when you are in a sales call. > notifier is becoming more sensible than ours. They even have > a 'download the updates in the background when things are idle' > option aparently, which sounds cute. (think I'd rather be around > when it applies them though). We do too. It's just not well documented. chkconfig service yum on for the runlevels you want.,, From stephen_pollei at comcast.net Tue Nov 16 23:53:17 2004 From: stephen_pollei at comcast.net (Stephen Pollei) Date: 16 Nov 2004 15:53:17 -0800 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100646823.3510.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041116223012.GG10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100646823.3510.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100649199.986.24.camel@fury> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 15:13, Per Bjornsson wrote: > Virtualization sounds more likely to provide a somewhat sane solution > than emulation to me, how is emulation ever going to be anything but dog > slow? Wine Is Not Emulation -- From http://winehq.org/ : [[Wine is an Open Source implementation of the Windows API on top of X and Unix. Think of Wine as a Windows compatibility layer. Wine does not require Microsoft Windows, as it is a completely alternative implementation consisting of 100% Microsoft-free code, but it can optionally use native system DLLs if they are available.]] Also see myth #1 at http://winehq.org/site/myths . Furthermore http://reactos.com/ is planning to use wine to share as much programming effort as possible. And some people have gotten some wine DLLs to work as replacements under native windows. Think of it as being like lesstif is to motif. I don't use wine myself though BTW. -- http://dmoz.org/profiles/pollei.html http://sourceforge.net/users/stephen_pollei/ http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=2455954990164098214 http://stephen_pollei.home.comcast.net/ GPG Key fingerprint = EF6F 1486 EC27 B5E7 E6E1 3C01 910F 6BB5 4A7D 9677 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 23:51:30 2004 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:51:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: <1100648792.7343.50.camel@hostmaster.org> References: <1100648792.7343.50.camel@hostmaster.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Thomas Zehetbauer wrote: > I think that should be done in bugzilla, but: > 1.) developers should not close bugs/RFEs just because they do not want > to fix it NOW > 2.) there should be a voting system like the one on mozilla.org bugzilla doesn't allow getting a quick & easy overview of what features are requested in which categories. A web page with an outline view and a bunch of 'Me too!' buttons. Did you volunteer to maintain the list? :) -- Elliot From davej at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 23:54:31 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:54:31 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116234842.GF10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> <20041116234842.GF10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041116235431.GI8674@redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 06:48:42PM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > mac for my wife, Apple did something right. They have something > > (possibly a cron job) that looks for updates at a user specified > > interval, and if nothing is found, it does nothing. You don't even > > know it checked. If it does find something, it pops up a dialog. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > None of this flashing red bubble nonsense. The whole time you're > > blissfully unaware of this going on, which is a big win > > memory footprint wise. > > That didn't go down well in some places. One of the problems with automatic > updates and any network tool that is impolite is when your box does a major > update over your GPRS phone at ?3.50 per megabyte, or clogs a customer > wireless network when you are in a sales call. The update frequency can be configured. And as underlined above, you get prompted 'found updates, do you want to install these now or later?' when it does find something to do. Dave From perbj at stanford.edu Wed Nov 17 00:14:58 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:14:58 -0800 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100649199.986.24.camel@fury> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041116223012.GG10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100646823.3510.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100649199.986.24.camel@fury> Message-ID: <1100650499.3510.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 15:53 -0800, Stephen Pollei wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 15:13, Per Bjornsson wrote: > > Virtualization sounds more likely to provide a somewhat sane solution > > than emulation to me, how is emulation ever going to be anything but dog > > slow? > Wine Is Not Emulation -- From http://winehq.org/ : > [[Wine is an Open Source implementation of the Windows API on top of X > and Unix. ;) If you hadn't snipped the text right above the lines you quoted, you'd see that it was Alan Cox suggesting that running Windows in qemu might be an option that is easier for some companies than Wine is. qemu _is_ an emulator that tries to be speed-smart; reading Alan's further comments perhaps it can be significantly better than I realized at speed. But thanks anyways. /Per -- Per Bjornsson Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University From alan at clueserver.org Tue Nov 16 23:28:25 2004 From: alan at clueserver.org (alan) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:28:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004, Elliot Lee wrote: > I wish that someone would volunteer to collect all these wishes, requests, > and observations, and organize them into a single coherent picture of what > people want in FC4. > > Without this, all these points are likely to be ignored because they're > scattered through a thousand mailing list posts across multiple lists... > > Anyone? It should be a series of Bugzilla entries. -- Q: Why do programmers confuse Halloween and Christmas? A: Because OCT 31 == DEC 25. From sopwith at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 00:35:27 2004 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:35:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004, alan wrote: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004, Elliot Lee wrote: > > > I wish that someone would volunteer to collect all these wishes, requests, > > and observations, and organize them into a single coherent picture of what > > people want in FC4. > > > > Without this, all these points are likely to be ignored because they're > > scattered through a thousand mailing list posts across multiple lists... > > > > Anyone? > > It should be a series of Bugzilla entries. bugzilla can track individual feature requests, but it's no good for getting a single coherent picture (e.g. taking a quick look to see what percent of the requests cover things related to the desktop). -- Elliot From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Wed Nov 17 00:48:04 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:48:04 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100639933.12712.11.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100639933.12712.11.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100652484.4139.15.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 16:18 -0500, Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: > > I'm using the java2d and imageio packages with IBM's JDK. It doesn't > > work out of the box with libgcj though, so I'll have to come up to speed > > with the java2d/cairo development. Alternatively, I can always drop the > > alpha/antialias pertiness. Or switch to SVG instead and let librsvg do > > the work. > > You tried this on the FC3 libgcj? Yes. > The most current java2d/cairo work is > happening on the java-gui-branch in gcc CVS and lots of improvements > have gone in since we branched the FC3 libgcj. Once the code that > generates these graphs is available we can make it work on open source > Java. That's what I thought. I tried using JHBuild to get the branch but unfortunately freedesktop.org is down. Thanks, -- Ziga From alikins at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 00:59:50 2004 From: alikins at redhat.com (Adrian Likins) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:59:50 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041117005950.GF17825@redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 06:43:50PM -0500, Dave Jones wrote: > On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 06:29:40PM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > > Utterly. On multihead boxes I've seen it take 30% of the total CPU time > > and 20% of the network bandwidth. Its eeeeevil because it should be a > > service daemon so it runs *ONCE* and it should chat over dbus or something > > to the display which -should-not-flash- - it's very bad UI design (movement > > out of the user focus area is distracting) and sucks resources. > > It also gets 'stuck' sometimes, making the user believe that everything > is up to date, whilst running up2date -l, or yum will find packages > that need updating. I've also seen it claim updates are available > that running up2date on the command line can't find. *boggle* > file a bug on any cases like that you see, I haven't seen one in ages. > The whole thing needs a bullet in its head imo. > I'll buy the gun, the bullets, and the beer if I get to shoot it. > > If someone could have that fixed and in testing tomorrow that would be > > fantastic ;) > > Wouldn't it be great ? They'd be my fedora hero-of-the-day. Not likely to happen. If it were my call, the rhn-applet wouldn't be in Fedora at all (or at least, not on by default). But I don't see anyone wanting to fix it and not just replace it. Maybe for fc4... Adrian The unfortunate sap who got handed the rhn-applet to maintain... From royamitabha at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 01:42:41 2004 From: royamitabha at gmail.com (Amitabha Roy) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:42:41 -0500 Subject: FC4 wishes Message-ID: <77e74f3e04111617426266634f@mail.gmail.com> Sorry if someone has already beaten me to it... Better ACPI support on laptop (battery applet still wants to use APM to suspend) (I think this might be a more upstream problem). I want to close my laptop lid and have it hibernate. It should just work (TM). NetworkManager has bugs and UI problems ironed out. (again this might be a issue with not-so-great orinoco drivers I am using) Amitabha From wtogami at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 02:02:29 2004 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:02:29 -1000 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <419AB135.6090303@redhat.com> Rex Dieter wrote: > Any ideas/pointers on getting FC3 running on (MS) VirtualPC (2004)? It > installs fine, but doesn't completely get into multiuser (or even > single-user) mode after that. Can't get in far enough to much snooping > around or even look at the logs. > > -- Rex > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138744 According to this guy it is the 4G/4G split that virtualPC is unable to support. Unfortunately this is not our responsibility, and only Microsoft can fix this. Good luck convincing them. Warren From avibrazil at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 02:09:40 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:09:40 -0500 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <77e74f3e04111617426266634f@mail.gmail.com> References: <77e74f3e04111617426266634f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:42:41 -0500, Amitabha Roy wrote: > Sorry if someone has already beaten me to it... > > Better ACPI support on laptop (battery applet still wants to use APM to suspend) > (I think this might be a more upstream problem). I want to close my laptop lid > and have it hibernate. It should just work (TM). I vote for this one too. On my IBM T40, being selfish =D From richardl at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 03:08:02 2004 From: richardl at redhat.com (Richard Li) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:08:02 -0500 Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: References: <1100648792.7343.50.camel@hostmaster.org> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2004, at 6:51 PM, Elliot Lee wrote: > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Thomas Zehetbauer wrote: > >> I think that should be done in bugzilla, but: >> 1.) developers should not close bugs/RFEs just because they do not >> want >> to fix it NOW >> 2.) there should be a voting system like the one on mozilla.org > > bugzilla doesn't allow getting a quick & easy overview of what features > are requested in which categories. A web page with an outline view and > a > bunch of 'Me too!' buttons. > To expand on what Elliot says: Bugzilla is good for task tracking. It's not so good for tracking what tasks should be done in the context of an OS release, because there are so many codependent variables that need to be juggled together at once: priorities, resources, feasibility, and so forth. In my mind, creating/maintaining such a list would, ideally, entail: - gathering all the feature requests (and i think bugzilla is fine for this part, actually) - sorting them out by priority (and I think a mozilla.org-type voting system has significant limitations[1]) - sorting them out by practicality (resources; timeframe; what's going on upstream; etc.) and to do this you would need to create a strawman list, circulate on fedora-devel-list, get feedback, update, and repeat. Sure, it's work, but how nice would it be to have someone who helps figure out what really is the priority for the release? :) Richard [1] The voting audience for FC4 features is not a representative sample of the FC4 user base (not everyone votes; not everyone reads Bugzilla; etc.) Plus, different people have different agendas ("My customers are non-technical helpdesk users" "My users care about good I/O" etc.) From hp at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 03:26:33 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:26:33 -0500 Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: <1100648792.7343.50.camel@hostmaster.org> References: <1100648792.7343.50.camel@hostmaster.org> Message-ID: <1100661993.5656.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 00:46 +0100, Thomas Zehetbauer wrote: > I think that should be done in bugzilla, but: > 1.) developers should not close bugs/RFEs just because they do not want > to fix it NOW Bugzilla is a task tracker; developers really _do_ need to close things they don't plan to work on. Otherwise the task tracking function of bugzilla gets hosed. We also don't want to be redundant with upstream bug trackers, so most feature requests that involve changing an upstream project need to get closed and moved upstream. > 2.) there should be a voting system like the one on mozilla.org >From what I've seen the highest-voted bugs are just the ones someone posted to Slashdot or went on IRC and said "go vote for this!" It also leads to threads about how "this bug got a lot of votes, but nobody is working on it, the developers suck" which may or may not be accurate. Havoc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Nov 17 04:11:45 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 23:11:45 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100664705.4049.1.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 18:43 -0500, Dave Jones wrote: > On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 06:29:40PM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > > Utterly. On multihead boxes I've seen it take 30% of the total CPU time > > and 20% of the network bandwidth. Its eeeeevil because it should be a > > service daemon so it runs *ONCE* and it should chat over dbus or something > > to the display which -should-not-flash- - it's very bad UI design (movement > > out of the user focus area is distracting) and sucks resources. > > It also gets 'stuck' sometimes, making the user believe that everything > is up to date, whilst running up2date -l, or yum will find packages > that need updating. I've also seen it claim updates are available > that running up2date on the command line can't find. *boggle* > > The whole thing needs a bullet in its head imo. > > I never thought I'd say it, but after having recently bought a > mac for my wife, Apple did something right. They have something > (possibly a cron job) that looks for updates at a user specified > interval, and if nothing is found, it does nothing. You don't even > know it checked. If it does find something, it pops up a dialog. > None of this flashing red bubble nonsense. The whole time you're > blissfully unaware of this going on, which is a big win > memory footprint wise. I've had some ideas for that, but keeping the memory footprint down might be a bit taxing. thought is easy enough, though. have the nightly cron job generate an rss feed of the available updates. (yum generate-rss updates) then have the applet just look for and read the rss file. -sv From jonathansavage at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 04:20:37 2004 From: jonathansavage at gmail.com (Jon Savage) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:20:37 -0800 Subject: wiki at fedora.us In-Reply-To: References: <1100637781.2682.36.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <2ad7cea104111620202e5d33b4@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:54:50 -0500, Josh Bressers wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:43:01 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > wrote: > > Could somebody please do something about this: > > > > - Fedora Core 3: > > Coming soon > > It's a Wiki. Anyone can change it, feel free. yeah but afik the coming soon refers to content in FC3 fedora.us rather than the conf/repo file - any way to help the process along? I'm willing to contrib time/effort if that will make a diff. -- Bests, Jon From cmadams at hiwaay.net Wed Nov 17 04:44:53 2004 From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:44:53 -0600 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041117044453.GD1170262@hiwaay.net> Once upon a time, Dave Jones said: > I've heard from other quarters that even Microsoft's update > notifier is becoming more sensible than ours. They even have > a 'download the updates in the background when things are idle' > option aparently, which sounds cute. (think I'd rather be around > when it applies them though). On a couple of workstations I use: 45 6 * * 1-5 t=`mktemp /tmp/yum.XXXXXXXX`; yum check-update >& /dev/null; yum -C check-update >& $t || (h=`hostname | cut -d. -f1`; cat $t | mail -s "Updates available for $h" root; yum -y --download-only update >& /dev/null); rm -f $t When there are updates, I get an email and they are automatically downloaded so they are ready to go when I am ready to load them. -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. From mpeters at mac.com Wed Nov 17 05:12:54 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:12:54 +0000 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <1100643720.2786.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> (from tadams-lists@myrealbox.com on Tue Nov 16 14:22:00 2004) References: <1100641454.2736.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041116224821.229b5a13@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100642016.2736.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100642241.14162.59.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1100642626.2736.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100643720.2786.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100668374l.4119l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/16/2004 02:22:00 PM, Trever L. Adams wrote: > Hey, Jonathan, I am glad you and Ralf see it my way. I am not saying > change the language for the entire session. I am saying change the > language for any newly opened instance of an application. Yes, the > other > would be nice, but I knew that wasn't going to happen. It might if a configuration daemon like gconf is used to set the language - at least it could for gconf aware applications. I would think anyway - I don't really know. From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed Nov 17 05:13:27 2004 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:13:27 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041117044453.GD1170262@hiwaay.net> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> <20041117044453.GD1170262@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: <1100668407.13705.2.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 22:44 -0600, Chris Adams wrote: > yum -y --download-only update >& /dev/null); Which version of yum is this? >From what I experienced with the version of yum shipped with FC3, yum --download-only is neither documented nor functional. Ralf From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Nov 17 05:14:37 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:14:37 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100668407.13705.2.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> <20041117044453.GD1170262@hiwaay.net> <1100668407.13705.2.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <1100668477.4049.5.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 06:13 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 22:44 -0600, Chris Adams wrote: > > > yum -y --download-only update >& /dev/null); > Which version of yum is this? > > >From what I experienced with the version of yum shipped with FC3, > yum --download-only > is neither documented nor functional. --download-only didn't get put back into 2.1.11. It may show up before long, though. -sv From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed Nov 17 05:26:27 2004 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:26:27 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100668477.4049.5.camel@cutter> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> <20041117044453.GD1170262@hiwaay.net> <1100668407.13705.2.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> <1100668477.4049.5.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1100669187.13705.6.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 00:14 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 06:13 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 22:44 -0600, Chris Adams wrote: > > > > > yum -y --download-only update >& /dev/null); > > Which version of yum is this? > > > > >From what I experienced with the version of yum shipped with FC3, > > yum --download-only > > is neither documented nor functional. > > --download-only didn't get put back into 2.1.11. It may show up before > long, though. OK. Nevertheless yum still accepts --download-only without complaint. Ralf From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Wed Nov 17 05:38:05 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:38:05 -0700 Subject: ip_conntrack and IPv6 Message-ID: <1100669885.25350.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Well, while we are at it, I do have one very serious request: conntrack and such need to work with ipv6. Right now, I don't believe they do. However, the iptables people have a new nf_conntrack that works like ip conntrack but covers (or can cover) many other protocols. I believe they have ipv6 working. I was following it closely until about a year or so ago, now I just check in on it. It would be nice to actually have as an update to FC3 if possible, but definitely in FC4. Trever -- "Perilous to all of us are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves." -- Gandalf the White [J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Two Towers", Bk 3, Ch. XI] From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Wed Nov 17 05:39:35 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:39:35 -0700 Subject: ip_conntrack and IPv6 In-Reply-To: <1100669885.25350.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100669885.25350.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100669975.25350.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Arg, yes bad form replying to myself. Please, forgive me for all of my stupidity today. Add ipv6 enabled squid to that as well (it is not to hide ip addresses, but because of the caching feature as well as the fact I have filters I can plug into it). Trever On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 22:38 -0700, Trever L. Adams wrote: > Well, while we are at it, I do have one very serious request: conntrack > and such need to work with ipv6. Right now, I don't believe they do. > However, the iptables people have a new nf_conntrack that works like ip > conntrack but covers (or can cover) many other protocols. I believe they > have ipv6 working. I was following it closely until about a year or so > ago, now I just check in on it. > > It would be nice to actually have as an update to FC3 if possible, but > definitely in FC4. > > Trever > -- > "Perilous to all of us are the devices of an art deeper than we possess > ourselves." -- Gandalf the White [J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Two Towers", Bk > 3, Ch. XI] > -- "The era of setting this up as a competition between Apple and Microsoft is over, as far as I'm concerned." -- S. Jobs From arcofdescent at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 05:50:43 2004 From: arcofdescent at gmail.com (Rohan Almeida) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:20:43 +0530 Subject: Request for FC4 Message-ID: <777aada2041116215032f275bf@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Please include ibmonitor - an interactive bandwidth monitor http://ibmonitor.sourceforge.net This is already in Fedora Extras __ Rohan From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Nov 17 03:34:28 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:34:28 +0800 Subject: Fedora.us rebuild [Re: wiki at fedora.us] In-Reply-To: <1100641633.3510.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100637781.2682.36.camel@kyrre> <1100641633.3510.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100662468.7467.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 13:47 -0800, Per Bjornsson wrote: > > wrote: > > > Could somebody please do something about this: > > > > > > - Fedora Core 3: > > > Coming soon > > > > > > http://www.fedora.us/wiki/FedoraSources#yum > > > > It's a Wiki. Anyone can change it, feel free. Eventually, the wiki is to be moved to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ - in fact the import is already supposed to be happening, I just think that those of us that can do it, are kinda swamped > Perhaps the real problem is that the directory that it should be > pointing to - the Fedora.us "extras" RPM directory for FC3 - is still > empty? ;) (With the mirror list stuff in Yum and up2date it seems pretty > pointless to ask people to point Yum to the download.fedora.us site I > think, so the only relevant link there would be the one for extra > packages.) Look at http://download.fedora.us , the directory is there > but there is nothing in it.) Agreed. There was no mass rebuild > Actually, what are the plans regarding a rebuild of Extras for FC3? In > general I think the FC2 builds do work, but there are annoyances; e.g. > C++ packages typically need the compat-libstdc++ package since they are > built against an older version of the C++ standard library. (Notably > this is true for Inkscape, I discovered this when Inkscape just didn't > start after my FC3 upgrade.) Sure I can just rebuild most SRPMs but > isn't the point of having repositories that people can just point to > them and install stuff? Is this stalling on getting the Red Hat build > infrastructure for Extras in place? Most FC2 packages work. I think there are fedora.us repos of FC3 RPMS online somwhere - try livna possibly, or download.fr.fedora.us But definitely, the delay wasn't planned for, but since there was a delay, only good things can come out of it =) -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Nov 17 06:19:38 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:19:38 -0500 Subject: Fedora.us rebuild [Re: wiki at fedora.us] In-Reply-To: <1100662468.7467.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100637781.2682.36.camel@kyrre> <1100641633.3510.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100662468.7467.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100672378.4632.0.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 11:34 +0800, Colin Charles wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 13:47 -0800, Per Bjornsson wrote: > > > wrote: > > > > Could somebody please do something about this: > > > > > > > > - Fedora Core 3: > > > > Coming soon > > > > > > > > http://www.fedora.us/wiki/FedoraSources#yum > > > > > > It's a Wiki. Anyone can change it, feel free. > > Eventually, the wiki is to be moved to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ - > in fact the import is already supposed to be happening, I just think > that those of us that can do it, are kinda swamped > If anyone wants to do this by hand. Contact me or Colin, we'll be glad to give you write access to the right places and you can add the entries as much as you want. Thanks -sv From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Nov 17 03:31:24 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:31:24 +0800 Subject: FC4 wishes In-Reply-To: <77e74f3e04111617426266634f@mail.gmail.com> References: <77e74f3e04111617426266634f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100662284.7467.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 20:42 -0500, Amitabha Roy wrote: > Better ACPI support on laptop (battery applet still wants to use APM to suspend) > (I think this might be a more upstream problem). I want to close my laptop lid > and have it hibernate. It should just work (TM). Agreed. Help via Bugzilla, submitting patches, and making them enter upstream kernels as well >From my point of view, I've always suffered with fiddling with Fedora/ppc, so I bit the bullet and bought an IBM laptop (whoa, Fedora/x86 now). And to my surprise, my Thinkpad doesn't sleep! > NetworkManager has bugs and UI problems ironed out. > (again this might be a issue with not-so-great orinoco drivers I am using) File bugs, help triage bugs, at http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/ please remember to search for the NetworkManager component -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From notting at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 06:28:33 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:28:33 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Ziga Mahkovec (ziga.mahkovec at klika.si) said: > > I'd be curious to see what happens if you turn off synchronous logging. > > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-asyncsyslog.png > > syslogd definitely behaves better. It also decreases boot time, though > this is not immediately evident since kmodule took longer this time. > I've observed this with kudzu probes before. You running FC3 stock or updated? (There's a 3-4 second+ delay in kmodule fixed in the update...) Bill From notting at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 06:32:00 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:32:00 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <200411162256.05284.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100636995.2682.31.camel@kyrre> <200411162256.05284.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <20041117063200.GE4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Ronny Buchmann (ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org) said: > On Tuesday 16 November 2004 21:29, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > This definitely helped me with my boot times -- the 4-second load gap at > > > the start I found to be "modprobe floppy", apparently timing out on my > > > floppyless laptop :) > > > > Ah! that's why the floppy ligth flashes during "kudzu" (at the end of > > it) :) > > The question is, who needs a floppy before the system is fully up? It's for the benefit of udev... for the device nodes to be available you have to load it, and it can't be sanely hotplugged. (Heck, you can't even tell whether or not it's there without loading the module.) Bill From dag at wieers.com Wed Nov 17 07:08:28 2004 From: dag at wieers.com (Dag Wieers) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:08:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests Message-ID: Michael A. Peters wrote: > On 11/16/2004 01:13:45 AM, Troels Arvin wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:35:00 -0500, Phillip Compton wrote: > > > > > scribus - DTP > > > inkscape - Vector Graphics > > > lcms - Color Management > > > > I don't know about lcms, but the others sound like candidates for > > Fedora Extras, as they aren't exactly "core" components. > > > > By the way: I consider it _very_ sad that the Fedora Extras project > > doesn't collaborate with projects like FreshRPMS, Dag's repository, > > etc. > > (sometimes collectively called 'rpmforge'). Such lack of collaboration > > makes it very difficult for me to see Fedora Extras as a "community > > project" - which is its very purpose, as I understand it. > > In a nutshell the reason as I see it is this - Let me hand you some glasses. > Fedora has a protocol that they follow regarding package naming, package > building, and package testing which is very clearly outlined in the > Fedora documentations. This involves an outline QA process packages have > to go to. Excuse me ? Fedora nor Red Hat followed a naming policy. There haven't been enough samples recently to conclude that this has changed. I did not say that there wasn't a policy, but if there was, it was never followed (or changed frequently). Furthermore, when we had these discussions in the beginning at the fedora.us mailinglist, my naming policy went much further and was much stricter (much like Mandrake/Debian) than was proposed by fedora.us. (close to none). I wish you were there, you may have agreed with my proposal :) Regarding the QA process, I don't agree with the current QA process that has been put in place, which partly explains the huge backlog. A lot of what is required from QA people can easily be automated and my stance on this is, first automate, then enforce policies. And if you work with volunteers, double the importance for boring tasks. Also look at Matthias his experience and then tell me why I should import 1800 packages now ? > For Fedora to "cooperate" with third party packagers, they would need to > throw that process to the side for packages that have to be redone in > order to work with dag or freshrpm's etc. - and that's a bad thing, the > policy and guidelines they have are there for a reason, and that reason > is to provide a stable set of packages for those users who need a stable > repository to work with. Your passage raises a lot of questions: Why do they have to throw that process to the side ? Is communicating inside fedora.us inherently easier than outside ? Why ? Is it hard to include me, even when a package is based on mine ? You seem to imply I am against policies and guidelines which can only indicate you were not involved in any discussions. Besides isn't what is inside the guidelines more important then the mere fact of having them ? And are you implying my users do not need a stable repository to work with ? :) > Fedora already offers a way for these other repositories to integrate > with Fedora - they can introduce themselves to the list, and submit > packages to the fedora repository, going through the Fedora QA process > to do so. That is how the Fedora community works. No I cannot submit my packages to the fedora.us repository, my current packages work for older Fedora release, older Red Hat release and RHEL. Submitting it to fedora.us is simply not possible because fedora.us has no standards to allow for that. I've proposed some more stuff at the very beginning, all utterly ignored. > If dag and freshrpms's etc. want to cooperate together, that's fine - > that's even good. But Fedora has a published established way for > integrating with Fedora, and Fedora can not be expected to test all > possible scenarios of packages installed from third parties. You don't need to test all possible scenarios, we don't test all possible scenarios, there are better ways to prevent conflicts and believe me, excluding 3rd parties is causing MORE HARM than playing together. And that's exactly what upset me the most about the RepositoryMixing document, the document alone has probably been the biggest cause of conflicts and problems because it adviced fedora.us packagers NOT to cooperate and it told users to blame the 3rd party repositories for NOT joining. BTW It's also not a nice gesture if you are a community, excluding the biggest providers of packages. They've characterized me as not willing to submit my packages (another nice gesture), but have ignored all my reasons why I cannot... Also explain me why I spend 3 months or more on the fedora.us mailinglist, like so many other existing packagers (matthias, axel, rudolf, fernando, russ, ..) and each one of them apparently decided not to. Not willing ? Russ even started his own distribution (cAos) after writing proposals for the buildsystem, after having been ignored and after having implemented the same idea on his own. Believe me, if I wasn't interested I would not have bothered to join the discussions and write proposals and basicly wasted my time when most of the decisions were taken unilaterally. If you think I'm bitter, you bet I am :) -- dag wieers, dag at wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Wed Nov 17 07:09:14 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:09:14 +0100 Subject: wiki at fedora.us In-Reply-To: <2ad7cea104111620202e5d33b4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1100637781.2682.36.camel@kyrre> <2ad7cea104111620202e5d33b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041117080914.7e64c915.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:20:37 -0800, Jon Savage wrote: > > > Could somebody please do something about this: > > > > > > - Fedora Core 3: > > > Coming soon > > > > It's a Wiki. Anyone can change it, feel free. > > yeah but afik the coming soon refers to content in FC3 fedora.us > rather than the conf/repo file - any way to help the process along? > I'm willing to contrib time/effort if that will make a diff. Whoever added that comment (it can be seen in the page history), should have added "When it's ready" instead. Everything else is a wish and may be inaccurate. -- Fedora Core release 2 (Tettnang) - Linux 2.6.9-1.2_FC2 loadavg: 1.03 1.05 1.04 From jsk_priv at gmx.de Wed Nov 17 07:33:27 2004 From: jsk_priv at gmx.de (Joerg Skottke) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:33:27 +0100 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <419AFEC7.1000107@gmx.de> Rex Dieter wrote: > Any ideas/pointers on getting FC3 running on (MS) VirtualPC (2004)? > It installs fine, but doesn't completely get into multiuser (or even > single-user) mode after that. Can't get in far enough to much > snooping around or even look at the logs. > > -- Rex > There exists a bug for this issue: #121826 but it has been determined that this is rather a problem with VPC than with Fedora, even though Fedora is the only Linux distro that shows this problem. Joerg From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Wed Nov 17 07:34:53 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:34:53 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041117083453.37468a50.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:08:28 +0100 (CET), Dag Wieers wrote: > Also explain me why I spend 3 months or more on the fedora.us mailinglist, > like so many other existing packagers (matthias, axel, rudolf, fernando, > russ, ..) and each one of them apparently decided not to. Which name did Rudolf use on that list? Wanted to check out his comments, but cannot find his name in the list archives at all. Concerning Fernando, there's a total of 7 messages from him in the archives. One message on Nov 8th 2003, the other six between Dec 20th 2003 and Dec 22nd 2003. From ivg2 at cornell.edu Wed Nov 17 08:24:23 2004 From: ivg2 at cornell.edu (Ivan Gyurdiev) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:24:23 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100679863.13504.9.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> > > - Working NNTP support in evolution (as my bug has been ignored) > > > This works for me with 2.0.x. Did you file it in bugzilla.ximian.com? No, I filed the bug against Fedora, since the package I have is from Fedora, not from ximian. This is another thing. It would be nice if developers would stop closing my bugs when they are not "packaging related". This is usually the case on Fedora.us. I filed a bug on scribus recently and it was closed due to not being "packaging". I've filed numerous bugs in firefox when it was still in fedora.us, and they got closed as well. It seems unreasonable to me to expect the user to sign up for 20 different bugzillas where you will be told to download the cvs version and retest. The burden of bug-tracking should not be on the user. > > > - A way to resize the gnome icons when I change resolution > > without editing the Bluecurve file. A way to control > > Create a Bluecurve theme using SVGs? Yes, that should be the default. > > what gdm does with the resolution, because right now > > it makes me scroll the mouse left and right to see the entire > > screen, which is huge. 1600x1200 is available, but the X startup > > resolution is 1024x768. > > Is this filed in bugzilla.gnome.org? Depending on whether it's a problem > in gdm or X.org of course? Actually it's not filed anywhere yet - sorry about that. I'm unclear which program the bug is in. I'm not quite sure what would cause the screen to be scrollable left and right because of resolution. If I had filed it anywhere it would have been under Fedora's gdm package. -- Ivan Gyurdiev Cornell University From sriharivijayaraghavan at yahoo.com.au Wed Nov 17 08:40:40 2004 From: sriharivijayaraghavan at yahoo.com.au (Srihari Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:40:40 +1100 Subject: [PROBLEM] FC3 and Grub installation In-Reply-To: <00de01c4cc29$dd2cc240$4801a8c0@C515816A> References: <00de01c4cc29$dd2cc240$4801a8c0@C515816A> Message-ID: <200411171940.40523.sriharivijayaraghavan@yahoo.com.au> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:16 am, Otto Haliburton wrote: > > Here is the procedure I follow: > > 1. Install FC2 (yes, FC2) on /dev/hda1 and choose to > > install Grub on MBR (/dev/hda) > > 2. Install the shiny new FC3 on /dev/hda2 (in my case > > it was on /dev/hda16) and choose to install grub on > > the first sector of /dev/hda2 rather than on MBR. > > (Please ask me 'why', if you want to, but I am > > convinced I am doing nothing wrong in this step.) > > 3. Configure FC2's grub to chain load FC3's grub. > > 4. And observe it does not work. > ... > I think if you think about the boot procedure you will determine what you > are doing wrong. Ask your self the question, how will you boot from sector > in a partition after booting from the MBR? Ans. It won't happen. First of all thanks for your response. I am afraid you are wrong. Please consider this: Follow the steps 1, 2, 3 and 4 5. Install FC2 on /dev/hda3 (This FC2 from here on I shall refer to as FC2-New, while the one on /dev/hda1 FC2-Old). At the installation time choose to install the boot loader (Grub) on the first sector of /dev/hda3 (and not MBR). 6. Configure FC2-Old's /boot/grub.conf to boot FC2-New using chainloader option (root noverify hd(0,2) & chainloader +1) 7. And see it boots just fine the FC2-New. IOW, FC2-Old's grub boots FC2-New on /dev/hda3 but not FC3 on /dev/hda2. Do you see the flaw here? If not, I am afraid either I am unable to explain this clearly or you are unable to follow me, the former being more likely. > So what > is the problem. You are booting from the MBR period and is getting the > grub.conf for FC2 and what is in that file cause that is what can be > booted. Now if I remember my GRUB manual chain loading is done for foreign > OS's and FC3 is not a foreign OS. Well, all these long years this procedure of mine, however stupid it might be, worked flawlessly in booting both foreign and native OSs. FC3 is the first one to break that. > In the install of FC3 I don't see that > you had to do anything. GRUB should have found all os's and updated the > right grub.conf with the correct entries. Now I might be incorrect but > this is my opinion. I admire your confidence in letting a new OS installation (FC3) and its boot loader (FC3's grub) take over your MBR. I do not. I rather take a conservative approach until I am very confident. That is my choice I am afraid. (And this likely to be approach by many of my friends using Windows as their primary OS and choose not to install FC3's grub on MBR.) The funny thing is by using Rescue mode and using /sbin/grub-install /dev/hda2 I am able to fix the problem. So if a problem can be fixed manually why should not the Anaconda Installer do that automatically? Or alternatively I will be glad to see the following text when you choose the "advanced boot loader" configuration option during the GUI installation: "Anaconda does not write the boot loader _sometimes_ in the first sector of a given partition, so you are advised to select MBR instead. OTOH, if you choose to install on the first sector on a given partition, then you may have to use Rescue mode and execute /sbin/grub-install manually." Or remove the entire "advance boot loader configuration" procedure off Anaconda. Sorry if I sounded a bit rude, and I apologise if I offended you or anybody. I am just trying to explain this bug though it seems to go nowhere but to the deaf ears. :( Thank you. Hari. From veillard at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 09:39:08 2004 From: veillard at redhat.com (Daniel Veillard) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 04:39:08 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041117093907.GC18610@redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 08:09:01PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > > - Why is rhgb eating so much CPU? if you run 'rhgb -i' it displays > > basically 0 CPU to display the animation. That looks like a > > pretty obvious bug we completely missed. > > You seem to have tracked this one down, but here's the output without > rhgb for comparison: > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-norhgb.png > (boot time went from 1:27 to 0:51) If you have time to regeerate a graphic with the fixed rhgb-0.15.1 I would really appreciate the comparison with the broken version and this may give a more interesting data for others to work on. I have put FC3 rebuilt rpms at ftp://rpmfind.net/pub/veillard/ thanks a lot ! Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ veillard at redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From Nigel.Metheringham at dev.intechnology.co.uk Wed Nov 17 09:45:06 2004 From: Nigel.Metheringham at dev.intechnology.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:45:06 +0000 Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: References: <1100648792.7343.50.camel@hostmaster.org> Message-ID: <1100684706.20964.1.camel@angua.localnet> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 18:51 -0500, Elliot Lee wrote: > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Thomas Zehetbauer wrote: > > > I think that should be done in bugzilla, but: > > 1.) developers should not close bugs/RFEs just because they do not want > > to fix it NOW > > 2.) there should be a voting system like the one on mozilla.org > > bugzilla doesn't allow getting a quick & easy overview of what features > are requested in which categories. A web page with an outline view and a > bunch of 'Me too!' buttons. Why not put it on the Fedora.us wiki? http://www.fedora.us/wiki/ [No, you didn't hear me volunteer] Nigel. -- [ Nigel Metheringham Nigel.Metheringham at InTechnology.co.uk ] [ - Comments in this message are my own and not ITO opinion/policy - ] From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Nov 17 08:13:50 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:13:50 +0800 Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100679230.7467.152.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 17:01 -0500, Elliot Lee wrote: > I wish that someone would volunteer to collect all these wishes, requests, > and observations, and organize them into a single coherent picture of what > people want in FC4. Sort of, take a gander at the attachment. I used to keep a "jobs" list that sat somewhere in my home directory, so I just updated it for a bit (boring plane ride) > Without this, all these points are likely to be ignored because they're > scattered through a thousand mailing list posts across multiple lists... They're just outta fedora-devel-list, there's probably more at fedora- test-list (which I haven't caught up to yet), and most certainly, this should just enter the wiki at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi -------------- next part -------------- Fedora Core 4 wishes (grep for inclusion, to see new package requests) * Better ACPI support for laptops - battery applet still wanting to use APM to suspend laptop - aim to close laptop lid and have it just suspend (and wake up) * NetworkManager has UI problems, and bugs (with Orinoco cards?) * ibmonitor inclusion - in Fedora Extras already - http://ibmonitor.sourceforge.net * Update apps to remove the GtkDeprecationWarning in gtk.mainloop * Update apps to remove SCSI ioctl, use SG_IO instead * Main distro down to 1 or 2 discs - its growing too much * Better firewall configuration tool * Anaconda "advanced" menu for experienced users so there's more package selection. * Tell everyone old X Font server won't be shipped in FC5 * Tomcat inclusion. Eclipse inclusion, integrated w/Tomcat * Working Evolution NNTP support - we might just need an FC3 update * Elektra support - http://elektra.sourceforge.net * Graphical shut down - or just shut it down immediately after log out * Each user having individual language support (i.e. on the fly) - is this not solved via LANG= ? or even GDM - a GUI tool * ip conntrack handle ipv6 * ipv6 enabled squid -- and then the older.... -- Fedora Core 2 (unfulfilled) wishes * Groupware software - OpenGroupware * speedtch kernel module, i.e. w/pppd supporting plugins * a miniconda (small anaconda) for smallish installs. Looking at 'cinch' a floppy-based installer (written for caosity), uses yum for installs * User Mode Linux inclusion, to test future FC releases (easier) * qemu (as opposed to anaconda installing in a large chroot) * Backup tool available in menu (allowing incremental backups, even to external disks) * GUI for editing RPM sources (for yum/apt/up2date) * For people with a home network, easy GUI setup so that RPMs are downloaded only once * Alan's quick list (some irrelvant/fixed removed) - Fix the translations process to avoid the FC1 menu fiasco - Fix or drop apps that just dont work in FC1. If they dont work and nobody fixed them then there isnt any point continuing to ship them (eg the terminal server client) - Opengroupware IFF there is a calendaring solution for evolution and it by then - Get the extras framework sorted and consign lots of the old 'small userbase pet program' stuff to it (eg joe) - Font coverage for missing fonts where possible - Make metacity actually work properly if we are going to ship it. * Mondo Rescue inclusion - www.mondorescue.org * Multisync inclusion * distcc and ccache inclusion * culmus font inclusion - culmus.sf.net * Zope inclusion * Notting would like 40-day hours, thanks :) * Anjuta IDE inclusion - in fedora.us * Good audio editor inclusion - Sweep, Audacity (fedora.us package), Gnusound (fedora.us QA), Glame (livna) * WorkRave inclusion * MySQL 4.x inclusion - SOLVED * ntop inclusion - www.ntop.org * new syslog replacement * XFS support in installer * Enlightenment for a window manager * GFS support * NTFS support * Webmin inclusion * moodss inclusion - moodss at http://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=866 moomps at http://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=947 tktable at http://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=868 blt at http://download.fedora.us/fedora/ in i386/RPMS.stable/ * Rescue CD that had GUI list of problems, and their quick fixes - fixing your borked Linux installation for Dummies * meld inclusion - fedora.us package Fedora Core 3 (unfulfilled) wishes * RSS newsreader inclusion - straw, liferea * better sound server replacement - no arts, or esd, something else * Shorewall (for firewalls) inclusion - in fedora.us * Yum front-end * ipw2100/2200 wireless support The firmware is indeed not redistributable, but SuSE managed to make set-up almost trivial in 9.1 by including the kernel module but then requiring their users to download the firmware themselves. * mscorefonts inclusion - corefonts.sf.net From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Nov 17 07:35:06 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:35:06 +0800 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> Message-ID: <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 01:56 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > > Graphical shutdown to go with the graphical bootup? > > Better than that, lets just shut down immediately. Once you're logged > out, there's no reason that this should be as slow as it is. Public access terminals, and labs, will not want a user to log out and let the box immediately shut down Also, when I log out of GNOME, there are a tonne of services to stop "properly", its kinda hard to do it automagically, I'd imagine -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From buildsys at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 10:14:50 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:14:50 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041117 changes Message-ID: <200411171014.iAHAEoo30293@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Removed package rpmdb-fedora Updated Packages: anaconda-10.2.0.3-1 ------------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Jeremy Katz - 10.2.0.3-1 - Create initramfs images instead of initrds for boot media - Remove some old code in a few places - Allow passing --notksdevice in network lines of a ks.cfg to avoid confusion with multiple network lines and a ksdevice= (#136903) - Allow going back to change the network device if ksdevice= is passed and isn't correct (#136903) - Fix for console= to automatically imply serial as needed (#137971) authd-1.4.3-1 ------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Adrian Havill - 1.4.3-1 - fix double-free prob detected on x86_64 glibc (#136392) compat-db-4.2.52-2 ------------------ * Tue Nov 16 2004 Jeff Johnson 4.2.52-2 - link libdb-4.1.so against -lpthread (#114150). - link libdb-4.2.so against -lpthread (#139487). * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 4.2.52-1 - apply patch.4.1.25.2. - retire db-4.2.52 with patch.4.2.52.{1,2} into compat-db. - nuke db2 and db-3.3.11. - nuke db1 as well. * Mon Sep 13 2004 Bill Nottingham - return of db1 to compat-db - remove: db-3.1, db-3.2 - remove: c++, tcl sublibraries dhcp-7:3.0.1-12 --------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Jason Vas Dias 7:3.0.1-12 - fix bug 138181 & bug 139468: do not attempt to listen/send on - unconfigured loopback, point-to-point or non-broadcast - interfaces (don't generate annoying log messages) - fix bug 138869: dhclient-script: check if '$new_routers' is - empty before doing 'set $new_routers;...;ping ... $1' * Wed Oct 06 2004 Jason Vas Dias 7:3.0.1-11 - dhcp-3.0.2b1 came out today. A diff of the 'ack_lease' function - Dave Hankins and I patched exposed a missing '!' on an if clause - that got dropped with the 'new-host' patch. Replacing the '!' . - Also found one missing host_dereference. * Wed Oct 06 2004 Jason Vas Dias 7:3.0.1-10 - clean-up last patch: new-host.patch adds host_reference(host) - without host_dereference(host) before returns in ack_lease - (dhcp-3.0.1-host_dereference.patch) foomatic-3.0.2-5 ---------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Tim Waugh 3.0.2-5 - Ship data as non-executable (bug #139271). - Corrected autodetect information for HP Business InkJet 1100 (bug #139258). gkrellm-2.2.4-1 --------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Karsten Hopp 2.2.4-1 - update glibc-2.3.3-79 -------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-79 - update from CVS - fix free () checking - move /etc/default/nss into glibc-common (hopefully fix #132392) * Mon Nov 15 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-78 - update from CVS - fix LD_DEBUG=statistics - issue error message before aborting in __chk_fail () - some more free () checking grep-2.5.1-39 ------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Tim Waugh 2.5.1-39 - Fixed last patch. * Tue Nov 16 2004 Tim Waugh 2.5.1-38 - Applied patch from Karsten Hopp to fix background colour problems with --color output (bug #138913). hotplug-3:2004_04_01-10 ----------------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Bill Nottingham 3:2004_04_01-10 - fix usb remove events (#121511, ) im-sdk-1:12.1-8 --------------- * Wed Nov 17 2004 Jens Petersen - 1:12.1-8 - gimlet applet fixes: - add gimlet-no-LE-lang-hang-r2055-139470.patch to fix hanging when no Language Engine for locale available (139470) - add leif-unit-sysime.cfg-Bengali-138633.patch to list unitle Bengali as just bn (138633) - use gimlet-lang-data-Indic-r2026-134194_136139.patch to add Indic native language names rather than overwriting (134194,136139) - do not build Sun Chinese LEs when not packaging them - add leif-sun-zh-disable.patch - only need to remove common/ subdirs now * Mon Nov 15 2004 Jens Petersen - make iiimf-gnome-im-switcher only own gnome-im-switcher-applet in /usr/libexec iproute-2.6.9-4 --------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Radek Vokal 2.6.9-4 - source file updated from snapshot version - endian patch adding krb5-1.3.5-2 ------------ * Tue Nov 16 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 1.3.5-2 - fix globbing patch port mode (#139075) less-382-5 ---------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Karsten Hopp 382-5 - minor fix in lesspipe.sh (#73215) mailx-8.1.1-39 -------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Ivana Varekova - fix problem with Reply-To header #136429 - fix problem with changes in mailbox #77069 python-ldap-0:2.0.1-3 --------------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai - 0:2.0.1-3 - rebuild rhgb-0.15.1-1 ------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Daniel Veillard 0.15.1 - fix bug #139463 where rhgb eats all the CPU on pipe handling - update translations sane-backends-1.0.15-2 ---------------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Tim Waugh 1.0.15-2 - Applied the libusbscanner part of the patch for bug #121511, by Ian Pilcher. selinux-policy-strict-1.19.1-11 ------------------------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-11 - Fixed for /dev/pmu and printconf * Tue Nov 16 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-10 - Add boolean to allow httpd to communicate with tty selinux-policy-targeted-1.19.1-11 --------------------------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-11 - Fixed for /dev/pmu and printconf - Add ldconfig.te * Tue Nov 16 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-10 - Add boolean to allow httpd to communicate with tty tvtime-0.9.15-2 --------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Than Ngo 0.9.15-2 - remove suid root valgrind-1:2.2.0-6 ------------------ * Tue Nov 16 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.2.0-6 - act as if NVALGRIND is defined when using in non-m32/i386 programs (#138923) - remove weak from VALGRIND_PRINTF*, make it static and add unused attribute From jwz at jwz.org Wed Nov 17 10:24:37 2004 From: jwz at jwz.org (Jamie Zawinski) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 02:24:37 -0800 Subject: rescue boot Message-ID: <419B26E5.76D0A8C4@jwz.org> As long as everyone's tossing out wishlists... In FC2, the boot.iso doesn't have a self-contained way to give you a minimal shell. If you boot from it in "rescue" mode, it insists on having (ftp/http/mount) access to the full set of install ISOs before it will even give you a shell. I just needed a bootable CD to install grub on a new disk; I didn't have the FC2 distro CDs around, so I just downloaded and burned the small boot.iso, and was shocked to find that it didn't have the ability to just give me sh and mount, or busybox or something, without having access to the whole enchilada. -- Jamie Zawinski jwz at jwz.org http://www.jwz.org/ jwz at dnalounge.com http://www.dnalounge.com/ From caolanm at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 10:35:47 2004 From: caolanm at redhat.com (Caolan McNamara) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:35:47 +0000 Subject: gcj and Openoffice.org 1.9.X Message-ID: <1100687747.7934.14.camel@sheol.homelinux.org> I've some patches at http://people.redhat.com/caolanm/gcj/ to start off building OOo 1.9.61 with gcj/gij as java replacement. If some people with gcj/java expertise want to help make some progress at building the up and coming OOo with gcj support the patches should help get it started. The crucial thing is to get the module xmlhelp built with gcj so that building in helpcontent2 which uses xmlhelp will produce the help files. In xmlhelp "extends sun.net.www.protocol.file.Handler" is a problem, hacking around it currently leads to a crash in helpcontent2. Minor issues are building the modified rhino module, and some odds and ends in the wizards and qadev modules C. From jwz at jwz.org Wed Nov 17 10:29:52 2004 From: jwz at jwz.org (Jamie Zawinski) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 02:29:52 -0800 Subject: Requests for FC4 References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <419B2820.71A8E165@jwz.org> Colin Charles wrote: > > Also, when I log out of GNOME, there are a tonne of services to stop > "properly", its kinda hard to do it automagically, I'd imagine The only way I *ever* log out of GNOME is through the time-honored mechanism of having X crash. So, that had better be a "safe" thing to do. I think that any notion of doing housekeeping at/after logout is flawed. -- Jamie Zawinski jwz at jwz.org http://www.jwz.org/ jwz at dnalounge.com http://www.dnalounge.com/ From peter.backlund at home.se Wed Nov 17 10:42:09 2004 From: peter.backlund at home.se (Peter Backlund) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:42:09 +0100 Subject: rescue boot In-Reply-To: <419B26E5.76D0A8C4@jwz.org> References: <419B26E5.76D0A8C4@jwz.org> Message-ID: <1100688129.19380.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> ons 2004-11-17 klockan 02:24 -0800 skrev Jamie Zawinski: > As long as everyone's tossing out wishlists... > > In FC2, the boot.iso doesn't have a self-contained way to give you a > minimal shell. If you boot from it in "rescue" mode, it insists on > having (ftp/http/mount) access to the full set of install ISOs before > it will even give you a shell. > > I just needed a bootable CD to install grub on a new disk; I didn't have > the FC2 distro CDs around, so I just downloaded and burned the small > boot.iso, and was shocked to find that it didn't have the ability to > just give me sh and mount, or busybox or something, without having > access to the whole enchilada. What about the ~70 meg rescuecd.iso? It fits on a CD/RW, and as the name implies, it can be used for system recovery. /Peter Backlund > -- > Jamie Zawinski > jwz at jwz.org http://www.jwz.org/ > jwz at dnalounge.com http://www.dnalounge.com/ > From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Nov 17 10:28:42 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:28:42 +0800 Subject: rescue boot In-Reply-To: <419B26E5.76D0A8C4@jwz.org> References: <419B26E5.76D0A8C4@jwz.org> Message-ID: <1100687322.7467.180.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 02:24 -0800, Jamie Zawinski wrote: > In FC2, the boot.iso doesn't have a self-contained way to give you a > minimal shell. If you boot from it in "rescue" mode, it insists on > having (ftp/http/mount) access to the full set of install ISOs before > it will even give you a shell. It really just requires stage2.img iirc, which might weigh you down at ~80meg There was a request to make it fully graphical and easy to use (i.e. the rescue stuff), so while it might seem too quick for FC4, someone (some people) might decide to actually start hacking on that The aim: "So my mom can rescue her Linux box" (or something like that...) -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Nov 17 10:38:36 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:38:36 +0800 Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: <1100679230.7467.152.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100679230.7467.152.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100687916.7467.185.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 16:13 +0800, Colin Charles wrote: > > Without this, all these points are likely to be ignored because they're > > scattered through a thousand mailing list posts across multiple lists... > > They're just outta fedora-devel-list, there's probably more at fedora- > test-list (which I haven't caught up to yet), and most certainly, this > should just enter the wiki at > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ And as some luck would have it, not a pretty-fied version, just a copy/paste, the wiki stuff is at: http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/wiki/index.cgi/Wishlist And as Seth said, poke either him or me to give you sane people access to edit the wishlist -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From jwz at jwz.org Wed Nov 17 10:44:19 2004 From: jwz at jwz.org (Jamie Zawinski) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 02:44:19 -0800 Subject: rescue boot References: <419B26E5.76D0A8C4@jwz.org> <1100688129.19380.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <419B2B83.273029DC@jwz.org> Peter Backlund wrote: > > What about the ~70 meg rescuecd.iso? It fits on a CD/RW, and as the name > implies, it can be used for system recovery. Well, I didn't try that one, because in the past with RH, I remembered being able to just type "linux rescue" and get a shell right away! And the FC2 boot CD offers "rescue" as one of its options in the banner. Maybe you don't care that the boot CD isn't a rescue CD, but in that case, having it offer an option that says "rescue" is perhaps not the clearest way to communicate that. -- Jamie Zawinski jwz at jwz.org http://www.jwz.org/ jwz at dnalounge.com http://www.dnalounge.com/ From markmc at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 10:45:47 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:45:47 +0000 Subject: Stateless Linux experience... In-Reply-To: <200411151814.iAFIE23F015948@mx1.redhat.com> References: <200411151814.iAFIE23F015948@mx1.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100688347.5919.13.camel@blaa> Hi, No html mail thanks. > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 13:13 -0500, Mike Herrick wrote: > 2) Even with the latest code, there is a typo on line 96 of > stateless-snapshooter.py ("--protosytem" should be "--protosystem"). Should be fixed in CVS now. > 3) I tried this on a machine that initially had 128MB of RAM. When I > got to the "stateless-snapshooter -n -p DemoSystem" step, I ran out of > memory: "device-mapper ioctl cmd 9 failed: Cannot allocate memory". I > added 128MB of RAM and still had the same problem, so I stopped some > non-essential services (httpd, sendmail, etc.). Then I was able to > continue. Ouch, this is using LVM, right? What's taking up all the memory? > 5) In the /etc/dhcpd.conf file, it refers to > "linux-install/pxelinux.0" as the PXE bootable image, but when the PXE > client connects this file is not found. I > copied /usr/lib/syslinux/pxelinux.0 (from syslinux RPM) > to /tftpboot/linux-install. I'm still not sure what's going on there. On my FC3 install pxelinux.0 is in /tftpboot/linux-install but no package owns it. > 6) Because of the RAM problem above, I'm not sure that subsequent > invocations of "stateless-snapshooter -n -p DemoSystem" actually > worked as designed. When I execute "stateless-snapshooter -l", I get: > > Protosystems: > DemoSystem > > But it doesn't say anything about snapshots. This makes me nervous. > What should the output look like? Yeah, looks like there aren't any snapshots listed in LDAP. Are there snapshots in /srv/stateless/snapshots? Maybe use GQ (GUI LDAP client) to poke around in LDAP to see if any record of the snapshots are being made? > 7) When I run "python statelessGenPXEConfig.py" after adding the MAC > addresses, I get "Unable to get NFS location of DemoSystem snapshot > DemoSystem-1". I'm not exactly sure where it's supposed to have > picked up the NFS path definition from. It appears to me from > browsing some of the code that somewhere along the line I was supposed > to have executed "stateless-servers", but I didn't see anything about > that in the documentation. Right, it can't get snapshot information from LDAP. That's why it failed. > With these changes, I was able to get a machine to boot from the > snapshot, but there were many errors/warnings stemming from having a > read-only root (and /var) filesystem on a diskless client. > > When I finally got the machine to boot, it wouldn?t let me login! I > suspect some read-only root problem during the login process that > prevented the login process from completing. Its possible the snapshot process never completed, and so that snapshot wasn't properly prepared for readonly booting. Cheers, Mark. From jakub at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 10:48:41 2004 From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:48:41 -0500 Subject: rescue boot In-Reply-To: <419B2B83.273029DC@jwz.org> References: <419B26E5.76D0A8C4@jwz.org> <1100688129.19380.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419B2B83.273029DC@jwz.org> Message-ID: <20041117104841.GO10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 02:44:19AM -0800, Jamie Zawinski wrote: > Peter Backlund wrote: > > > > What about the ~70 meg rescuecd.iso? It fits on a CD/RW, and as the name > > implies, it can be used for system recovery. > > Well, I didn't try that one, because in the past with RH, I remembered > being able to just type "linux rescue" and get a shell right away! > And the FC2 boot CD offers "rescue" as one of its options in the banner. > > Maybe you don't care that the boot CD isn't a rescue CD, but in that > case, having it offer an option that says "rescue" is perhaps not the > clearest way to communicate that. But boot.iso provides rescue functionality. It just needs stage2.img for that, which it can fetch from various sources (it can be e.g. a local CD, harddisk with .iso images, FTP/HTTP download of stage2.img from a Fedora mirror or NFS mount). Once it fetches it, it will offer you a shell prompt. Jakub From P at draigBrady.com Wed Nov 17 10:51:27 2004 From: P at draigBrady.com (P at draigBrady.com) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:51:27 +0000 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> Message-ID: <419B2D2F.5080801@draigBrady.com> Dave Jones wrote: > On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 11:28:16PM +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > > > > One thing that really sticks out in this one for me > > > is rhn-applet-gui. That thing is just huge. > > That's the flashy "update me" thingy in the notification area, right? > > First thing I kill after reinstalling :) > > Yes. Also known as "evil force of forceful evil" in some circles. tee hee. Yes it has interesting performance characteristics for a box serving multiple vnc sessions. P?draig. From markmc at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 10:56:00 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:56:00 +0000 Subject: Stateless Linux experience... In-Reply-To: <419A17F3.9010107@jimmy.harvard.edu> References: <200411151814.iAFIE23F015948@mx1.redhat.com> <419A17F3.9010107@jimmy.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <1100688960.5919.18.camel@blaa> Hi, On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 10:08 -0500, Jason Powers wrote: > > 5) In the /etc/dhcpd.conf file, it refers to "linux-install/pxelinux.0" as > > the PXE bootable image, but when the PXE client connects this file is not > > found. I copied /usr/lib/syslinux/pxelinux.0 (from syslinux RPM) to > > /tftpboot/linux-install. > > > > I changed this. Whatever is referred to as the pxelinux location is > actually tacked onto /tftpboot/. I'm concerned that parts of the program > may attempt to run and be looking inside /tftpboot/ for the images, or > be looking for non-pxe files realitve to that path. Anyway I changed it > to /pxelinux.0 and dropped the files in /tftpboot to make my life easier. So, you'd no /tftpboot/linux-install directory? Bah, I see where this stuff comes from now. system-config-netboot copies it over in a %post scriptlet. That's broken. > > 7) When I run "python statelessGenPXEConfig.py" after adding the MAC > > addresses, I get "Unable to get NFS location of DemoSystem snapshot > > DemoSystem-1". I'm not exactly sure where it's supposed to have picked up > > the NFS path definition from. It appears to me from browsing some of the > > code that somewhere along the line I was supposed to have executed > > "stateless-servers", but I didn't see anything about that in the > > documentation. > > > > In the config.py you can control all the paths the python scripts look > to. This need to be changed, I think, to run off the > etc/sysconfig/stateless file, because users aren't going to manipulate > python scripts (no matter how simple it may be). You shouldn't need to change anything in config.py. Cheers, Mark. From markmc at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 11:02:05 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:02:05 +0000 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> Message-ID: <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> Hi, On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 13:16 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > i'm having a few problems with setting up stateless linux for the > rsync-based cached instantiation model > > first of all, i couldn't get the post install script in the kickstart > file to work. and i'm not sure why because i could not see any output > from that script but i know that when the system would reboot, the > stateless-client package would not be installed What I was doing in the end was: - Rather than using the yum-from-kickstart hack I'd recommend copying that stateless-* and readonly-root RPMs into a rawhide install tree and then doing: $> genhdlist --hdlist /path/to/install/tree/Fedora/base/hdlist --productpath Fedora /path/to/tree - And then using the kickstart file attached. It'd be great if you could confirm that works and send patches for the HOWTO. Cheers, Mark. -------------- next part -------------- #Generated by Kickstart Configurator #platform=x86, AMD64, or Intel EM64T #System language lang en_US #Language modules to install langsupport en_US #System keyboard keyboard us #System mouse mouse genericwheelps/2 #Sytem timezone timezone America/New_York #Root password rootpw --iscrypted $1$zt.yCm/N$46LGQtvmSC9Vmukw8ac3I. #Reboot after installation reboot #Install OS instead of upgrade install #Use NFS installation Media nfs --server=toaster.boston.redhat.com --dir=/vol/vol1/redhat/fc2-i386 #System bootloader configuration bootloader --location=mbr #Clear the Master Boot Record zerombr yes #Partition clearing information clearpart --all --initlabel #Disk partitioning information part /boot --fstype ext3 --size 100 --ondisk hda part /reserve-boot --fstype ext3 --size 100 --ondisk hda part /reserve-root --fstype ext3 --size 3072 --ondisk hda part / --fstype ext3 --size 3072 --ondisk hda #System authorization infomation auth --useshadow --enablemd5 #Network information network --bootproto=dhcp --device=eth0 #Firewall configuration firewall --enabled #Do not configure XWindows skipx #Package install information %packages --resolvedeps rsync -anacron -ash -aspell -aspell -aspell-en -at -attr -authconfig -autofs -bind-utils -comps -crontabs -dos2unix -dump -fbset -finger -ftp -gnupg -groff -hesiod -irda-utils -isdn4k-utils -jwhois -lftp -lha -libpcap -libwvstreams -logrotate -logwatch -lrzsz -lsof -mailx -man -man-pages -mdadm -minicom -mtr -mt-st -nano -nc -netconfig -netdump -nss_ldap -ntsysv -openssh-server -pam_smb -parted -pax -perl -perl-Filter -pinfo -policy -policycoreutils -ppp -prelink -psacct -python-optik -quota -rdate -rdist -rhnlib -rmt -rp-pppoe -rsh -schedutils -sendmail -slocate -specspo -star -statserial -stunnel -sudo -symlinks -system-config-mouse -system-config-network-tui -system-config-securitylevel-tui -talk -tcpdump -tcsh -telnet -time -traceroute -unix2dos -unzip -up2date -utempter -vconfig -vim-minimal -vixie-cron -wget -wvdial -ypbind -yp-tools -zip readonly-root stateless-client %post cat > /etc/sysconfig/stateless << EOF LDAP_SERVER=foo LDAP_BASE_DN=dc=foo,dc=bar,dc=com EOF cd /usr/share/stateless ./stateless-boostrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot From markmc at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 11:04:40 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:04:40 +0000 Subject: stateless wants pxelinux.0 In-Reply-To: <4198F999.4010606@science.edu> References: <4198E5A3.5020609@science.edu> <1100541057.9029.14.camel@blaa> <4198F290.7090402@science.edu> <4198F999.4010606@science.edu> Message-ID: <1100689480.5919.27.camel@blaa> Hi, On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 12:46 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: > > Hmm, well, I just realized that when I ran stateless-clients to add a > > client, that somehow, it doesn't get added: > > " > > [root at Server ~]# stateless-clients --configuration DemoSystem --add > > 00:11:11:4A:8A:21 > > [root at Server ~]# stateless-clients -l > > Clients: > > [root at fsix-Server ~]# > > " > > could this be related? > > > > > > Regards, > > Carlos > > > Okay, maybe it isn't related. Though, as someone mentioned earlier, the > stateless-* utilities don't take long-form ("--") parameters. I got it > working with "stateless-clients -c DemoSystem -a 00:11:11:4A:8A:21". > Maybe the docs need to be updated (?). Is this using the CVS code or ... ? The long-form paramters should work with CVS. > Anyway, what is the format of the files in the pxelinux.cfg/* files > supposed to be? what parameters need to be passed to the kernel, etc. > and how is this stuff supposed to be generated? The files are generate by statelessGenPXEConfig.py in a cron-job. Cheers, Mark. From markmc at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 11:07:08 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:07:08 +0000 Subject: stateless wants pxelinux.0 In-Reply-To: <4199207E.7080801@science.edu> References: <200411152010.iAFKAkLO024840@mx2.redhat.com> <4199207E.7080801@science.edu> Message-ID: <1100689628.5919.31.camel@blaa> Hi, On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 15:32 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: > >I believe that the PXE configuration is supposed to be automatically > >generated by a cron job (which invokes > >/usr/share/stateless/statelessGenPXEConfig.py). It didn't work for me > >because I didn't have an NFS path set properly. > > > I'm getting a similar message from "statelessGenPXEConfig.py": > " > [root at fsix-Server /]# python /usr/share/stateless/statelessGenPXEConfig.py > Unable to get NFS location of DemoSystem snapshot DemoSystem-1 > " > > Here's my /etc/exports: > " > /home/users *(rw,async) > /src/stateless/snapshots *(rw,async) > " > > Does anyone know how the NFS location is supposed to be set up? Is > there any more documentation than the Tutorial and the source ( I don't > speak python very well )? The issue is that statelessGenPXEConfig.py isn't find details of the snapshot or snapshot server in LDAP. Maybe looking through LDAP with GQ might show which pieces are missing and we can fix whatever problem caused it not to be there. See stateless-schema.txt and statless-schema.dia for details about where the various bits go in LDAP Cheers, Mark. From markmc at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 11:09:53 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:09:53 +0000 Subject: Stateless Works! but... In-Reply-To: <419938CE.4020301@science.edu> References: <419938CE.4020301@science.edu> Message-ID: <1100689794.5919.34.camel@blaa> Hi, On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 17:16 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: > I finally got a diskless machine to boot from a stateless server! > There are a lot of "can't do that on a read-only filesystem" messages, > at boot, and I can't login, there must be something I'm missing. Where exactly is it breaking? Are you sure the snapshot process completed correctly, that the readonly-root package is installed on the snapshot etc.? > Is there a "post-image-installation" document describing how to overcome > these problems? Also, I had to figure out how to use the > "stateless-servers" command to add the nfs/rsync paths before the cron > job would work that configured the client pxelinux files under > /tftpboot. I may have overlooked it somehow, but shouldn't that be in > the tutorial? Ah, yes that should be in the tutorial. Patches for the tutorial are very, very welcome :-) Cheers, Mark. From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Wed Nov 17 12:06:07 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:06:07 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 01:28 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-asyncsyslog.png > > > > syslogd definitely behaves better. It also decreases boot time, though > > this is not immediately evident since kmodule took longer this time. > > I've observed this with kudzu probes before. > > You running FC3 stock or updated? (There's a 3-4 second+ delay in kmodule > fixed in the update...) I was running initscripts-7.93.5-1 from fedora-updates. I upgraded it with the one in rawhide now (initscripts-7.96-1), but this only contains rc.sysinit changes, correct? Anyway, kmodule does seem more stable now. I also did an "alias floppy off" and upgraded rhbg (see Daniel's post): http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-rhgbfix.png (boot time: 0:46, yay) -- Ziga From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Wed Nov 17 12:06:37 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:06:37 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041117093907.GC18610@redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117093907.GC18610@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100693197.4493.18.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 04:39 -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: > If you have time to regeerate a graphic with the fixed rhgb-0.15.1 > I would really appreciate the comparison with the broken version and this > may give a more interesting data for others to work on. I have > put FC3 rebuilt rpms at ftp://rpmfind.net/pub/veillard/ Looks much better: http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-rhgbfix.png (see my previous post for other changes) -- Ziga From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Wed Nov 17 12:13:47 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:13:47 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si>; from ziga.mahkovec@klika.si on Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 01:06:07PM +0100 References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041117131347.A3660@ryoko.camperquake.de> On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 01:06:07PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-rhgbfix.png > (boot time: 0:46, yay) Looks to me like readahead_early and readahead are spending their time doing a whole lot of nothing (uninter. sleep, which I guess means "waiting for IO"). But if these two wait for IO, what process blocks it? Nothing else seems to be running at the same time, everyone waits. From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Wed Nov 17 12:15:51 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:15:51 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100693197.4493.18.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117093907.GC18610@redhat.com> <1100693197.4493.18.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041117131551.65599ead.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Ziga Mahkovec wrote : > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 04:39 -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: > > If you have time to regeerate a graphic with the fixed rhgb-0.15.1 > > I would really appreciate the comparison with the broken version and > > this may give a more interesting data for others to work on. I have > > put FC3 rebuilt rpms at ftp://rpmfind.net/pub/veillard/ > > Looks much better: > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-rhgbfix.png > (see my previous post for other changes) Wow, nearly divided by two! This is only with a fixed rhgb, a Rawhide initscripts and the floppy module "off", right? Seems like an rhgb errata might be worth it too. Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.667.radeonfb Load : 1.14 0.67 0.38 From veillard at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 12:16:33 2004 From: veillard at redhat.com (Daniel Veillard) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:16:33 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041117121633.GE26583@redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 01:06:07PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 01:28 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-asyncsyslog.png > > > > > > syslogd definitely behaves better. It also decreases boot time, though > > > this is not immediately evident since kmodule took longer this time. > > > I've observed this with kudzu probes before. > > > > You running FC3 stock or updated? (There's a 3-4 second+ delay in kmodule > > fixed in the update...) > > I was running initscripts-7.93.5-1 from fedora-updates. I upgraded it > with the one in rawhide now (initscripts-7.96-1), but this only contains > rc.sysinit changes, correct? > Anyway, kmodule does seem more stable now. I also did an "alias floppy > off" and upgraded rhbg (see Daniel's post): > > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-rhgbfix.png > (boot time: 0:46, yay) Looks way better ! Thanks, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ veillard at redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From veillard at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 12:17:14 2004 From: veillard at redhat.com (Daniel Veillard) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:17:14 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041117131551.65599ead.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117093907.GC18610@redhat.com> <1100693197.4493.18.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117131551.65599ead.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <20041117121713.GF26583@redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 01:15:51PM +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > This is only with a fixed rhgb, a Rawhide initscripts and the floppy module > "off", right? Seems like an rhgb errata might be worth it too. yes, I will do this today... Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ veillard at redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Wed Nov 17 12:36:06 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:36:06 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041117131551.65599ead.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117093907.GC18610@redhat.com> <1100693197.4493.18.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117131551.65599ead.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <1100694966.3590.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 13:15 +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > > Looks much better: > > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-rhgbfix.png > > (see my previous post for other changes) > > Wow, nearly divided by two! > This is only with a fixed rhgb, a Rawhide initscripts and the floppy module > "off", right? That and asynchronous logging (see my reply to Bill about the changes in syslogd behavior). So add about 4 seconds if you want to play it safe. -- Ziga From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Wed Nov 17 12:38:21 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:38:21 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100679863.13504.9.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100679863.13504.9.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> Message-ID: <20041117133821.3dc7a061.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:24:23 -0500, Ivan Gyurdiev wrote: > This is another thing. It would be nice if developers would stop closing > my bugs when they are not "packaging related". Be glad if they close your bugs. Worse is when they don't seem to react on a bug report at all. ;) > This is usually the case on Fedora.us. Just because it may have happened to you, doesn't make it "usual". > I filed a bug on scribus recently and > it was closed due to not being "packaging". > I've filed numerous bugs in firefox when it was still in fedora.us, > and they got closed as well. Depends on what kind of bug you report. If you report something which asks for Scribus/Firefox application development to be relocated to fedora.us, then that doesn't make sense. With big interest in an application, you better report issues upstream. The better your contact with upstream, the better response you get. > It seems unreasonable to me > to expect the user to sign up for 20 different bugzillas > where you will be told to download the cvs version and retest. It seems unreasonable to expect volunteer package developers in a community packaging project to forward every issue upstream, in particular if it's an RFE or issue where a packager would need to reimplement big parts or where upstream would likely want to communicate with the _user_ and not a packager. Whether commercially oriented Linux distributors handle some bugs themselves or even place employees in OSS projects directly, e.g. because they see that it affects their business, that is something different. > The burden of bug-tracking should not be on the user. The burden is not the bug-tracking. Have you ever seen tickets in bugzilla, which remain open as long as they link to a ticket in upstream bug tracker? The burden is to expect that package developers take over not only reporting an issue upstream, but also answering any questions upstream developers might have (e.g. steps to reproduce), testing experimental patches or work-arounds. This creates a requirement for packagers to be power-users of the software they package. If somebody who knows how to package software, maintains 20 packages, you ask for a world, where he (instead of you) has accounts for 20 different bugzillas and takes over what you consider a burden. What would you do if you had to get Scribus packages at www.scribus.net, because Fedora Core default Yum configuration would have a repo entry for upstream's Fedora packages? -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.667 loadavg: 1.27 1.23 0.74 From link at pobox.com Wed Nov 17 12:45:46 2004 From: link at pobox.com (Terje Bless) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:45:46 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ziga Mahkovec wrote: >http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-rhgbfix.png >(boot time: 0:46, yay) Hmmm. What happens to overall boot time if rhgb and dhclient is disabled, with and without readahead? Both rhgb and dhclient seem like they can be optimized individually ? so their contribution to overall boot time can be disregarded while studying the rest of the boot process ? and given the relative runtime and order of readahead vs. the following processes, readahead looks like it may be wasted here. Also interesting would be a graph of a minimal boot ? disable all nonessential services; portmap, rpc, gpm, cups, etc. ? into text console. It'd reduce the ?noise? in the graph and might reveal something interesting about the remaining processes. Oh, BTW, what is that apparent zombie of S04readahead_early? Just a timing issue with the sampling? - -- We've gotten to the point where a human-readable, human-editable text format for structured data has become a complex nightmare where somebody can safely say "As many threads on xml-dev have shown, text-based processing of XML is hazardous at best" and be perfectly valid in saying it. -- Tom Bradford -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP SDK 3.0.3 iQA/AwUBQZtH+KPyPrIkdfXsEQK2ZACgtsXtklJ9HzW0L64p8VRlQaayl+cAn2+T RGUpDCi4VClme+IEw6Bw24je =mbaw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed Nov 17 13:38:25 2004 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:38:25 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <20041117133821.3dc7a061.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100679863.13504.9.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <20041117133821.3dc7a061.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <1100698705.13705.71.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 13:38 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:24:23 -0500, Ivan Gyurdiev wrote: > > It seems unreasonable to me > > to expect the user to sign up for 20 different bugzillas > > where you will be told to download the cvs version and retest. > > It seems unreasonable to expect volunteer package developers in a > community packaging project to forward every issue upstream, in > particular if it's an RFE or issue where a packager would need to > reimplement big parts or where upstream would likely want to > communicate with the _user_ and not a packager. That's the essential difference between an "rpm-packager" and a "rpm- maintainer". Fedora.US does not distinguish between both of them, nor can anyone expect Fedora.US volunteer "packagers" to act as "rpm-maintainers", closing following a package's development. In an ideal world, Fedora.US rsp. FE should be collaborative efforts, were "super-maintainers" would fill gaps, and several "packagers"/"maintainers" cooperate to get bugs fixed/PRs forwarded etc. But such is theory, practice is different :( Ralf From mherrick at corente.com Wed Nov 17 14:05:23 2004 From: mherrick at corente.com (Mike Herrick) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:05:23 -0500 Subject: Stateless Linux experience... In-Reply-To: <1100688347.5919.13.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <200411171405.iAHE5nGp007976@mx3.redhat.com> > No html mail thanks. Sorry 'bout that. > > 6) Because of the RAM problem above, I'm not sure that subsequent > > invocations of "stateless-snapshooter -n -p DemoSystem" actually > > worked as designed. When I execute "stateless-snapshooter -l", I get: > > > > Protosystems: > > DemoSystem > > > > But it doesn't say anything about snapshots. This makes me nervous. > > What should the output look like? > > Yeah, looks like there aren't any snapshots listed in LDAP. > > Are there snapshots in /srv/stateless/snapshots? > > Maybe use GQ (GUI LDAP client) to poke around in LDAP to see if any > record of the snapshots are being made? Part of the problem may be that I hadn't run 'stateless-servers -a'. Do I have to run this before or after taking a snapshot? What values do I give for nfs_path and rsync_path? I don't have GQ, but here's the output of ldapsearch: [root at localhost tmp]# ldapsearch -x -b 'dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com' '(objectclass=*)' # extended LDIF # # LDAPv3 # base with scope sub # filter: (objectclass=*) # requesting: ALL # # stateless-test.example.com dn: dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com dc: stateless-test objectClass: domain # people, stateless-test.example.com dn: ou=people,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: organizationalUnit ou: people # groups, stateless-test.example.com dn: ou=groups,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: organizationalUnit ou: groups # services, stateless-test.example.com dn: ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: organizationalUnit ou: services # stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com dn: dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: statelessContainer dc: stateless # hosts, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com dn: dc=hosts,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: statelessContainer dc: hosts # servers, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com dn: dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: statelessContainer dc: servers # demo-group, groups, stateless-test.example.com dn: cn=demo-group,ou=groups,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: posixGroup cn: demo-group gidNumber: 1000 memberUid: group-name # demo-user, people, stateless-test.example.com dn: uid=demo-user,ou=people,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: inetOrgPerson objectClass: posixAccount objectClass: shadowAccount uid: demo-user uidNumber: 1000 gidNumber: 1000 cn: Demo User sn: Demo User homeDirectory: /home/users/demo-user loginShell: /bin/bash userPassword:: e1NTSEF9QVRNVUNxTnNod0g2enE1OTlHWnFOc3FpSzd5UnJSb1c= # DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com dn: statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateles s-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: statelessConfiguration statelessConfigurationName: DemoSystem statelessDefaultSnapshotName: DemoSystem-3 # DemoSystem-1, DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com dn: statelessSnapshotName=DemoSystem-1,statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,d c=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com statelessSnapshotName: DemoSystem-1 objectClass: statelessSnapshot statelessSnapshotServer: 6.6.6.1 # 00:02:b3:41:29:43, hosts, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com dn: macAddress=00:02:b3:41:29:43,dc=hosts,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateles s-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: statelessClient macAddress: 00:02:b3:41:29:43 statelessConfigurationName: DemoSystem # status, 00:02:b3:41:29:43, hosts, stateless, services, stateless-test.coren te.com dn: dc=status,macAddress=00:02:b3:41:29:43,dc=hosts,dc=stateless,ou=services,d c=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: statelessClientStatus dc: status # DemoSystem-2, DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com dn: statelessSnapshotName=DemoSystem-2,statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,d c=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com statelessSnapshotName: DemoSystem-2 objectClass: statelessSnapshot statelessSnapshotServer: 6.6.6.1 # DemoSystem, servers, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com dn: cn=DemoSystem,dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=cor ente,dc=com objectClass: statelessServer cn: DemoSystem # --nfs-path, servers, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com dn: cn=--nfs-path,dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=cor ente,dc=com objectClass: statelessServer cn: --nfs-path # /srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem, servers, stateless, services, state less-test.example.com dn: cn=/srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem,dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=servi ces,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: statelessServer cn: /srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem # DemoSystem-3, DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com dn: statelessSnapshotName=DemoSystem-3,statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,d c=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com statelessSnapshotName: DemoSystem-3 objectClass: statelessSnapshot statelessSnapshotServer: 6.6.6.1 # search result search: 2 result: 0 Success # numResponses: 19 # numEntries: 18 [root at localhost tmp]# df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00 10095152 5916920 3665416 62% / /dev/hda1 101086 8947 86920 10% /boot none 127684 0 127684 0% /dev/shm /dev/mapper/VGStateless-DemoSystem 4128448 3357000 561736 86% /srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem /dev/mapper/VGStateless-DemoSystem_1 4128448 3338300 580436 86% /srv/stateless/snapshots/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-1 /dev/mapper/VGStateless-DemoSystem_3 4128448 3338300 580436 86% /srv/stateless/snapshots/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-3 [root at localhost tmp]# stateless-snapshooter --list Protosystems: DemoSystem > > With these changes, I was able to get a machine to boot from the > > snapshot, but there were many errors/warnings stemming from having a > > read-only root (and /var) filesystem on a diskless client. > > > > When I finally got the machine to boot, it wouldn't let me login! I > > suspect some read-only root problem during the login process that > > prevented the login process from completing. > > Its possible the snapshot process never completed, and so that > snapshot > wasn't properly prepared for readonly booting. The readonly-root package was installed in the protosystem, and I verified that /etc/rc.readonly exists in both the protosystem and the snapshot. Mike. From enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de Wed Nov 17 14:09:35 2004 From: enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de (Enrico Scholz) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:09:35 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041117 changes In-Reply-To: <200411171014.iAHAEoo30293@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> (Build System's message of "Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:14:50 -0500") References: <200411171014.iAHAEoo30293@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <87fz38sh28.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) writes: > python-ldap-0:2.0.1-3 > --------------------- > * Tue Nov 16 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai - 0:2.0.1-3 > - rebuild Why are we still at 0.2.0.1? Current version is 0.2.0.5 with important (for me) fixes in SASL bind. Enrico From dwmw2 at infradead.org Wed Nov 17 14:27:56 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:27:56 +0000 Subject: ip_conntrack and IPv6 In-Reply-To: <1100669975.25350.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100669885.25350.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100669975.25350.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100701676.8191.7028.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 22:39 -0700, Trever L. Adams wrote: > Arg, yes bad form replying to myself. Please, forgive me for all of my > stupidity today. Add ipv6 enabled squid to that as well (it is not to > hide ip addresses, but because of the caching feature as well as the > fact I have filters I can plug into it). https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=131558 -- dwmw2 From alan at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 14:30:11 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:30:11 -0500 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <419AB135.6090303@redhat.com> References: <419AB135.6090303@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041117143011.GA760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 04:02:29PM -1000, Warren Togami wrote: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138744 > According to this guy it is the 4G/4G split that virtualPC is unable to > support. Unfortunately this is not our responsibility, and only > Microsoft can fix this. Good luck convincing them. I doubt they will. 4G/4G is essentially not emulatable on IA32 (ie legacy 32bit) PC systems. Well at least you can emulate it but it's so slow... Alan From powers.jason at jimmy.harvard.edu Wed Nov 17 14:40:32 2004 From: powers.jason at jimmy.harvard.edu (Jason Powers) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:40:32 -0500 Subject: Stateless Linux experience... In-Reply-To: <200411171405.iAHE5nGp007976@mx3.redhat.com> References: <200411171405.iAHE5nGp007976@mx3.redhat.com> Message-ID: <419B62E0.4060204@jimmy.harvard.edu> If you don't have GQ, slap the phpldapadmin application on your computer. Since you have to run apache anyway, there's no harm in being able to see the ldap's internals while you work. Jason Mike Herrick wrote: >> No html mail thanks. > > > Sorry 'bout that. > > >>>6) Because of the RAM problem above, I'm not sure that subsequent >>>invocations of "stateless-snapshooter -n -p DemoSystem" actually >>>worked as designed. When I execute "stateless-snapshooter -l", I get: >>> >>>Protosystems: >>> DemoSystem >>> >>>But it doesn't say anything about snapshots. This makes me nervous. >>>What should the output look like? >> >> Yeah, looks like there aren't any snapshots listed in LDAP. >> >> Are there snapshots in /srv/stateless/snapshots? >> >> Maybe use GQ (GUI LDAP client) to poke around in LDAP to see if any >>record of the snapshots are being made? > > > Part of the problem may be that I hadn't run 'stateless-servers -a'. Do I > have to run this before or after taking a snapshot? What values do I give > for nfs_path and rsync_path? > > I don't have GQ, but here's the output of ldapsearch: > > [root at localhost tmp]# ldapsearch -x -b 'dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com' > '(objectclass=*)' > # extended LDIF > # > # LDAPv3 > # base with scope sub > # filter: (objectclass=*) > # requesting: ALL > # > > # stateless-test.example.com > dn: dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > dc: stateless-test > objectClass: domain > > # people, stateless-test.example.com > dn: ou=people,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: organizationalUnit > ou: people > > # groups, stateless-test.example.com > dn: ou=groups,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: organizationalUnit > ou: groups > > # services, stateless-test.example.com > dn: ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: organizationalUnit > ou: services > > # stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > dn: dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: statelessContainer > dc: stateless > > # hosts, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > dn: dc=hosts,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: statelessContainer > dc: hosts > > # servers, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > dn: dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: statelessContainer > dc: servers > > # demo-group, groups, stateless-test.example.com > dn: cn=demo-group,ou=groups,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: posixGroup > cn: demo-group > gidNumber: 1000 > memberUid: group-name > > # demo-user, people, stateless-test.example.com > dn: uid=demo-user,ou=people,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: inetOrgPerson > objectClass: posixAccount > objectClass: shadowAccount > uid: demo-user > uidNumber: 1000 > gidNumber: 1000 > cn: Demo User > sn: Demo User > homeDirectory: /home/users/demo-user > loginShell: /bin/bash > userPassword:: e1NTSEF9QVRNVUNxTnNod0g2enE1OTlHWnFOc3FpSzd5UnJSb1c= > > # DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > dn: > statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateles > s-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: statelessConfiguration > statelessConfigurationName: DemoSystem > statelessDefaultSnapshotName: DemoSystem-3 > > # DemoSystem-1, DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > dn: > statelessSnapshotName=DemoSystem-1,statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,d > c=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > statelessSnapshotName: DemoSystem-1 > objectClass: statelessSnapshot > statelessSnapshotServer: 6.6.6.1 > > # 00:02:b3:41:29:43, hosts, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > dn: > macAddress=00:02:b3:41:29:43,dc=hosts,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateles > s-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: statelessClient > macAddress: 00:02:b3:41:29:43 > statelessConfigurationName: DemoSystem > > # status, 00:02:b3:41:29:43, hosts, stateless, services, > stateless-test.coren > te.com > dn: > dc=status,macAddress=00:02:b3:41:29:43,dc=hosts,dc=stateless,ou=services,d > c=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: statelessClientStatus > dc: status > > # DemoSystem-2, DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > dn: > statelessSnapshotName=DemoSystem-2,statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,d > c=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > statelessSnapshotName: DemoSystem-2 > objectClass: statelessSnapshot > statelessSnapshotServer: 6.6.6.1 > > # DemoSystem, servers, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > dn: > cn=DemoSystem,dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=cor > ente,dc=com > objectClass: statelessServer > cn: DemoSystem > > # --nfs-path, servers, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > dn: > cn=--nfs-path,dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=cor > ente,dc=com > objectClass: statelessServer > cn: --nfs-path > > # /srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem, servers, stateless, services, > state > less-test.example.com > dn: > cn=/srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem,dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=servi > ces,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > objectClass: statelessServer > cn: /srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem > > # DemoSystem-3, DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > dn: > statelessSnapshotName=DemoSystem-3,statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,d > c=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > statelessSnapshotName: DemoSystem-3 > objectClass: statelessSnapshot > statelessSnapshotServer: 6.6.6.1 > > # search result > search: 2 > result: 0 Success > > # numResponses: 19 > # numEntries: 18 > [root at localhost tmp]# df > Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on > /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00 > 10095152 5916920 3665416 62% / > /dev/hda1 101086 8947 86920 10% /boot > none 127684 0 127684 0% /dev/shm > /dev/mapper/VGStateless-DemoSystem > 4128448 3357000 561736 86% > /srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem > /dev/mapper/VGStateless-DemoSystem_1 > 4128448 3338300 580436 86% > /srv/stateless/snapshots/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-1 > /dev/mapper/VGStateless-DemoSystem_3 > 4128448 3338300 580436 86% > /srv/stateless/snapshots/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-3 > [root at localhost tmp]# stateless-snapshooter --list > Protosystems: > DemoSystem > > >>>With these changes, I was able to get a machine to boot from the >>>snapshot, but there were many errors/warnings stemming from having a >>>read-only root (and /var) filesystem on a diskless client. >>> >>>When I finally got the machine to boot, it wouldn't let me login! I >>>suspect some read-only root problem during the login process that >>>prevented the login process from completing. >> >> Its possible the snapshot process never completed, and so that >>snapshot >>wasn't properly prepared for readonly booting. > > > The readonly-root package was installed in the protosystem, and I verified > that /etc/rc.readonly exists in both the protosystem and the snapshot. > > Mike. > > From cknowlton at science.edu Wed Nov 17 14:39:56 2004 From: cknowlton at science.edu (Carlos Knowlton) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:39:56 -0600 Subject: Stateless Works! but... In-Reply-To: <1100689794.5919.34.camel@blaa> References: <419938CE.4020301@science.edu> <1100689794.5919.34.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <419B62BC.7080205@science.edu> >>I finally got a diskless machine to boot from a stateless server! >>There are a lot of "can't do that on a read-only filesystem" messages, >>at boot, and I can't login, there must be something I'm missing. >> >> > > Where exactly is it breaking? > > Are you sure the snapshot process completed correctly, that the >readonly-root package is installed on the snapshot etc.? > > > The snapshot seemed to install smoothly, but I'm not sure if no errors means "correctly". I did verify that "read-only root" and "stateless-clients" is installed on the snapshot. This is what's happening: -The client boots -Finds dhcp/PXE on the stateless server, and installs the kernel -initrd does a pivot-root to the NFS-mounted snapshot, (and here's where things get interesting) -when rc.readonlyroot runs, I get a series of "find: cannot access [file]: permission denied" -then when the rest of the processes start to run, some work, some fail. These fail: -CUPS -nfslock -netfs (this just hangs for a few minutes, and then RPC time's out) -xfs -nscd Since netfs won't mount NFS filesystems, I don't have access to user data folders, though I was finally able to get it to login (LDAP didn't like plain-text user passwords =). Anyway, the file permissions are the thing that seem to be causing most of the trouble. Everything that isn't world-readable is inaccessible, even to root! (why is that?) Though I tried to make everything on the snapshot in /etc and /var world-readable, this was a mistake, because though some things worked, others broke, I assume because they didn't like their private files exposed like this. Either way, I still couldn't get nfs exports to mount right. >>Is there a "post-image-installation" document describing how to overcome >>these problems? Also, I had to figure out how to use the >>"stateless-servers" command to add the nfs/rsync paths before the cron >>job would work that configured the client pxelinux files under >>/tftpboot. I may have overlooked it somehow, but shouldn't that be in >>the tutorial? >> >> > > Ah, yes that should be in the tutorial. Patches for the tutorial are >very, very welcome :-) > >Cheers, >Mark. > > > I'd love to, but... Hmm, ever thought of wiki-fying the tutorial? I'm still pretty new, I haven't learned the fine art of patch generating yet. Thanks for all your help! Carlos From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Wed Nov 17 14:55:11 2004 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:55:11 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <20041117083453.37468a50.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <20041117083453.37468a50.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <20041117145511.GF24663@neu.nirvana> On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 08:34:53AM +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:08:28 +0100 (CET), Dag Wieers wrote: > > > Also explain me why I spend 3 months or more on the fedora.us mailinglist, > > like so many other existing packagers (matthias, axel, rudolf, fernando, > > russ, ..) and each one of them apparently decided not to. > > Which name did Rudolf use on that list? Wanted to check out his > comments, but cannot find his name in the list archives at all. > Concerning Fernando, there's a total of 7 messages from him in the > archives. One message on Nov 8th 2003, the other six between Dec 20th > 2003 and Dec 22nd 2003. Look who's digging ... Dag may have included Fernando in the list above by accident, but Dag forgot to add himself to the list, so that makes it up. ;) Anyway the rest was certainly there until it went away. Just ask yourself Dag's question again, why did _all_ these people step away? Why didn't any of the packagers stay? Even though the answers are not comfortable to fedora.us, I believe a critical analysis of fedora.us' past errors and a change of manifesto is long overdue. It is anyway not compatible to Red Hat's goals in the joint project. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mpeters at mac.com Wed Nov 17 15:00:45 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:00:45 +0000 Subject: anaconda ftp install Message-ID: <1100703645l.3954l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Since I am going to be installing fc3 in lots of different configurations etc. for testing purposes, I set up an old iMac I had lying around with YDL and set it up as a ftp server for install and updates, figuring ftp install is the easiest way to do thing (no disk swapping) Two attempts at install failed. First attempt failed at installing ImageMagick - so I tried again, wondering if maybe the ImageMagick rpm on the server was bad. Second install failed earlier, with the kernel (which had installed first go around) It seems anaconda just gives up when it has downloaded a bad package. Now maybe the nic or something on that iMac isn't perfect, but there's a simple solution for remote installs - check the GPG sig of the package. If it fails grab it again. That way a clean package is there for install, even if it takes more than one fetch to get it. Can this be added to Anaconda for FC4? -- Cheap Linux CD's http://mpeters.us/linux/ From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Wed Nov 17 15:12:33 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:12:33 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 [Was: Stateless Linux experience...] In-Reply-To: <1100688347.5919.13.camel@blaa> References: <200411151814.iAFIE23F015948@mx1.redhat.com> <1100688347.5919.13.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1100704353.28495.4.camel@ulysse.olympe.o2t> Le mercredi 17 novembre 2004 ? 10:45 +0000, Mark McLoughlin a ?crit : > Maybe use GQ (GUI LDAP client) to poke around in LDAP to see if any > record of the snapshots are being made? Which brings up to : FC4 request : GQ -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From alan at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 15:14:16 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:14:16 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100679863.13504.9.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100679863.13504.9.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> Message-ID: <20041117151416.GD760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 03:24:23AM -0500, Ivan Gyurdiev wrote: > to expect the user to sign up for 20 different bugzillas > where you will be told to download the cvs version and retest. > The burden of bug-tracking should not be on the user. There are more users than developers, and in the case you aren't paying for support youu can't expect it. If you file a bug in the right place it'll be seen by the right people. Otherwise every developer has to search for each bug in 100 bugzillas and can't do statistics on them. From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Wed Nov 17 15:26:46 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:26:46 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <20041117145511.GF24663@neu.nirvana> References: <20041117083453.37468a50.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <20041117145511.GF24663@neu.nirvana> Message-ID: <20041117162646.12592696.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Axel Thimm wrote : > Anyway the rest was certainly there until it went away. Just ask > yourself Dag's question again, why did _all_ these people step away? > Why didn't any of the packagers stay? Because those people couldn't stand to not keep 200% control, because they're egocentric and want their name to appear everywhere and claim "I'm doing it all, it's me, me, me, only me and I'm the greatest of all!". There. Can we drop all this now, please? Thanks. Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.667.radeonfb Load : 0.37 0.31 0.39 From giallu at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 15:27:02 2004 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:27:02 +0100 Subject: FC3 DNS resolver issue Message-ID: Hi all, I am experiencing what I consider somewhat "strange" but probably there could be some sort of logic behind, due to the great amount of changes introduced in FC3. Basically, the the FC3 boxes I am using in my office (a laptop and a workstation) could not resolve internal names. For example, I have an host named "trex": [giallu at molzilla ~]$ ping trex ping: unknown host trex [giallu at molzilla ~]$ host trex trex has address 192.168.1.101 The dns server runs dnsmasq, really useful for resolving host names dynamically attached to the network with DHCP. Any ideas out there?? thanks Gianluca From mk at crc.dk Wed Nov 17 16:11:19 2004 From: mk at crc.dk (Mogens Kjaer) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:11:19 +0100 Subject: FC3 DNS resolver issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <419B7827.6010601@crc.dk> Gianluca Sforna wrote: ... > [giallu at molzilla ~]$ ping trex > ping: unknown host trex > [giallu at molzilla ~]$ host trex > trex has address 192.168.1.101 ... Are you running NIS as well? Try changing the hosts line in /etc/nsswitch.conf into: hosts: files dns Mogens -- Mogens Kjaer, Carlsberg A/S, Computer Department Gamle Carlsberg Vej 10, DK-2500 Valby, Denmark Phone: +45 33 27 53 25, Fax: +45 33 27 47 08 Email: mk at crc.dk Homepage: http://www.crc.dk From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Wed Nov 17 16:14:08 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:14:08 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <20041117151416.GD760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100679863.13504.9.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <20041117151416.GD760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041117171408.414a2331.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:14:16 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 03:24:23AM -0500, Ivan Gyurdiev wrote: > > to expect the user to sign up for 20 different bugzillas > > where you will be told to download the cvs version and retest. > > The burden of bug-tracking should not be on the user. > > There are more users than developers, and in the case you aren't paying > for support youu can't expect it. If you file a bug in the right place > it'll be seen by the right people. Otherwise every developer has to search > for each bug in 100 bugzillas and can't do statistics on them. Or packagers/package-maintainers within a community project spend an awful lot of time forwarding issues and RFEs from many users, only to find out that when an upstream developer responds, the original reporter doesn't answer anymore or has lost interest. Ultimately, in a community packaging project, small teams (with possibly redundant structures) of users, developers and packagers pick software of their interest and maintain packages painstakingly and with close contact to upstream projects. From walters at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 16:23:20 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:23:20 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100708600.12098.5.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 15:35 +0800, Colin Charles wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 01:56 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > > > Graphical shutdown to go with the graphical bootup? > > > > Better than that, lets just shut down immediately. Once you're logged > > out, there's no reason that this should be as slow as it is. > > Public access terminals, and labs, will not want a user to log out and > let the box immediately shut down Well, that's orthogonal to how fast the box shuts down :) If you don't want to grant users that ability, remove pam_console from your gdm and login PAM configs. This also disables USB mounting, etc. Right now we don't have a good way to just allow a subset of these abilities. From green at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 16:23:24 2004 From: green at redhat.com (Anthony Green) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:23:24 -0800 Subject: gcj and Openoffice.org 1.9.X In-Reply-To: <1100687747.7934.14.camel@sheol.homelinux.org> References: <1100687747.7934.14.camel@sheol.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1100708603.3009.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 02:35, Caolan McNamara wrote: > I've some patches at http://people.redhat.com/caolanm/gcj/ to start off > building OOo 1.9.61 with gcj/gij as java replacement. Nice! > The crucial thing is to get the module xmlhelp built with gcj so that > building in helpcontent2 which uses xmlhelp will produce the help files. > In xmlhelp "extends sun.net.www.protocol.file.Handler" is a problem, > hacking around it currently leads to a crash in helpcontent2. This is application badness. Ideally they wouldn't be using this class directly. If rewriting this code isn't an option, have a look at gnu.gcj.protocol.file.Handler to see if it will do the job. > Minor issues are building the modified rhino module, and some odds and > ends in the wizards and qadev modules Check out rhug for autotooled gcj enabled rhino. There's even an RPM spec file. http://sources.redhat.com/rhug Just FYI, however, I expect rhug will go away when we all start using GCC 4, since building and running java apps/libraries with GCC 4 will be much easier. AG -- Anthony Green Red Hat, Inc. From walters at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 16:25:14 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:25:14 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <419B2820.71A8E165@jwz.org> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419B2820.71A8E165@jwz.org> Message-ID: <1100708714.12098.9.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 02:29 -0800, Jamie Zawinski wrote: > Colin Charles wrote: > > > > Also, when I log out of GNOME, there are a tonne of services to stop > > "properly", its kinda hard to do it automagically, I'd imagine > > The only way I *ever* log out of GNOME is through the time-honored > mechanism of having X crash. So, that had better be a "safe" thing to > do. I think that any notion of doing housekeeping at/after logout is > flawed. Yes. The plan, which we are slowly moving forward on, is to tie everything in the session to the session D-BUS, which monitors your X session and exits when it does. From symbiont at berlios.de Wed Nov 17 17:12:09 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:12:09 +0800 Subject: FC3 DNS resolver issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200411180112.09353.symbiont@berlios.de> On Wednesday 17 November 2004 23:27, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > Any ideas out there?? For kicks, try to turn off IPv6 in /etc/modprobe.conf: alias net-pf-10 off alias ipv6 off Reboot. (or init 1; rmmod ipv6; init 3) -- -jeff From buildsys at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 17:42:48 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:42:48 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041117 changes Message-ID: <200411171742.iAHHgmd24888@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 17 17:50:46 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:50:46 -0500 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1100713846.2463.34.camel@shiva> Hi, i put the rpms into the RPMS dir and ran /usr/lib/anaconda-runtime/genhdlist --hdlist /mnt/FC3/Fedora/base/hdlist --productpath Fedora /mnt/FC3/ this seems to complete successfully and i can see that the packages have been added to the list strings /mnt/FC3/Fedora/base/hdlist |grep stateless stateless-server stateless-0.20-1.src.rpm stateless-server stateless-common stateless-server-0.20-1.noarch.rpm stateless-common stateless-0.20-1.src.rpm config(stateless-common) stateless-common config(stateless-common) stateless-common-0.20-1.noarch.rpm stateless-client stateless-0.20-1.src.rpm stateless-client stateless-common stateless-client-0.20-1.noarch.rpm strings /mnt/FC3/Fedora/base/hdlist |grep readonly readonly.so readonly-root Enables the use of a readonly root filesystem of a readonly root filesystem. The rc.readonly initscript configures the system so that temporary live CDs. Finally, the readonly-prepare script tweaks an OS image to make it suitable for booting with readonly-root. readonly-root-0.10-1.src.rpm `config(readonly-root) readonly-root config(readonly-root) readonly-root-0.10-1.i386.rpm however, when i attempt to do the kickstart install, the install now terminates abnormally right after preparing rpm transaction thx in advance, Peter Schobel ~ On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 06:02, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 13:16 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > i'm having a few problems with setting up stateless linux for the > > rsync-based cached instantiation model > > > > first of all, i couldn't get the post install script in the kickstart > > file to work. and i'm not sure why because i could not see any output > > from that script but i know that when the system would reboot, the > > stateless-client package would not be installed > > What I was doing in the end was: > > - Rather than using the yum-from-kickstart hack I'd recommend copying > that stateless-* and readonly-root RPMs into a rawhide install tree > and then doing: > > $> genhdlist --hdlist /path/to/install/tree/Fedora/base/hdlist --productpath Fedora /path/to/tree > > - And then using the kickstart file attached. > > It'd be great if you could confirm that works and send patches for the > HOWTO. > > Cheers, > Mark. From tromey at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 18:08:35 2004 From: tromey at redhat.com (Tom Tromey) Date: 17 Nov 2004 11:08:35 -0700 Subject: gcj and Openoffice.org 1.9.X In-Reply-To: <1100708603.3009.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100687747.7934.14.camel@sheol.homelinux.org> <1100708603.3009.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: >>>>> "Anthony" == Anthony Green writes: >> The crucial thing is to get the module xmlhelp built with gcj so that >> building in helpcontent2 which uses xmlhelp will produce the help files. >> In xmlhelp "extends sun.net.www.protocol.file.Handler" is a problem, >> hacking around it currently leads to a crash in helpcontent2. Anthony> This is application badness. Ideally they wouldn't be using Anthony> this class directly. If rewriting this code isn't an option, Anthony> have a look at gnu.gcj.protocol.file.Handler to see if it Anthony> will do the job. Copying and modify the gcj code is an option, btw, since the libgcj license is sufficiently liberal as to allow this. In gcj cvs this code is now in gnu.java.net.protocol.file.Handler btw. Whether this makes sense is hard to say without seeing the code. Caolan, we're definitely interested in getting this working. Feel free to ask questions on the gcj list (java at gcc.gnu.org). It isn't too late to get patches for OOo into GCC 4.0 if we can figure out what we need and implement it relatively quickly. Anthony> Just FYI, however, I expect rhug will go away when we all Anthony> start using GCC 4, since building and running java Anthony> apps/libraries with GCC 4 will be much easier. Yeah, the new binary compatibility ABI in 4.0 will make it a lot easier to gcj-compile random applications. However, it might not help OOo too much, since there the challenge is compiling source->class against a free class library. Tom From shiva at sewingwitch.com Wed Nov 17 18:11:35 2004 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:11:35 -0800 Subject: ip_conntrack and IPv6 In-Reply-To: <1100669885.25350.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100669885.25350.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <5B0228DF4C775DDB3E338FB9@[10.169.6.246]> --On Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:38 PM -0700 "Trever L. Adams" wrote: > Well, while we are at it, I do have one very serious request: conntrack > and such need to work with ipv6. From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 17 18:46:21 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:46:21 -0500 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1100717181.2463.49.camel@shiva> Hi, i'm able to get the install of the stateless pkgs to work by intalling them from the online repository like so #Package install information %packages --resolvedeps %post --interpreter=/bin/bash echo "[StatelessLinux]" >> /etc/yum.conf echo "name=Stateless Linux" >> /etc/yum.conf echo "baseurl=http://people.redhat.com/dmalcolm/stateless" >> /etc/yum.conf echo "gpgcheck=0" >> /etc/yum.conf rpm --import /usr/share/rhn/* yum -y install stateless-client echo "LDAP_SERVER=myldapserver" > /etc/sysconfig/stateless echo "LDAP_BASE_DN=dc=cms, dc=porchlight, dc=ca" >> /etc/sysconfig/stateless echo "LDAP_ADMIN_DN=cn=Manager, dc=cms, dc=porchlight, dc=ca" >> /etc/sysconfig/stateless echo "LDAP_ADMIN_PASSWD=myldappasswd" >> /etc/sysconfig/stateless cd /usr/share/stateless python stateless-boostrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot but the system reboots and the sync of the snapshot does not work when i try to run python stateless-boostrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot from cli i get [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# python bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot Traceback (most recent call last): File "bootstrap.py", line 31, in ? import gtk File "/usr/src/build/463937-i386/install/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/gtk-2.0/gtk/__init__.py", line 37, in ? RuntimeError: could not open display please excuse my ignorance, but why do we need an X display to rsync a fs? thx in advance Peter Schobel ~ On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 06:02, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 13:16 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > i'm having a few problems with setting up stateless linux for the > > rsync-based cached instantiation model > > > > first of all, i couldn't get the post install script in the kickstart > > file to work. and i'm not sure why because i could not see any output > > from that script but i know that when the system would reboot, the > > stateless-client package would not be installed > > What I was doing in the end was: > > - Rather than using the yum-from-kickstart hack I'd recommend copying > that stateless-* and readonly-root RPMs into a rawhide install tree > and then doing: > > $> genhdlist --hdlist /path/to/install/tree/Fedora/base/hdlist --productpath Fedora /path/to/tree > > - And then using the kickstart file attached. > > It'd be great if you could confirm that works and send patches for the > HOWTO. > > Cheers, > Mark. From daly at rio.sci.ccny.cuny.edu Wed Nov 17 17:38:00 2004 From: daly at rio.sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Tim Daly) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:38:00 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100639274.14162.54.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> (message from Sean Middleditch on Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:07:54 -0500) References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> <1100634962.14162.43.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1100638432.2682.44.camel@kyrre> <1100639274.14162.54.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> Message-ID: <200411171738.iAHHc0926258@rio.sci.ccny.cuny.edu> Sean, I believe that an open science platform is the kind of killer app you're looking for which will, gradually, convince a fair sized group of people to use linux. First, since is an open enterprise by philosophy (if not in fact). Second, there are a large number of freely available scientific apps Third, a LiveCD kind of platform can introduce a science platform to students and professors at minimal impact and cost (Quantian is an example). Fourth, introducing students to these science apps creates a growing pool of people who learn and learn to need linux to support their skills. It will take time but there has already been some discussion of the concept with RedHat. It would be of interest to them because it opens up the educational market at minimal cost. It also opens up the science conference market at the same minimal cost (distribution of LiveCDs). It is also of interest to developers of these packages because they have the "leverage" of being included in these distributions and a common method of sharing code and research work. Such systems we've termed "Doyen systems" (a doyen is the senior or most experienced person in a group). An effort is underway to build such a science platform using a LiveCD for distribution and a Wiki for the host portion of the system. This won't attract everyone but it has the key aspect of attracting students, similar to the advantage Unix had in its early life. Tim Daly From caolanm at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 18:55:25 2004 From: caolanm at redhat.com (Caolan McNamara) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:55:25 +0000 Subject: gcj and Openoffice.org 1.9.X In-Reply-To: <1100708603.3009.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100687747.7934.14.camel@sheol.homelinux.org> <1100708603.3009.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100717726.8111.4.camel@sheol.homelinux.org> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 08:23 -0800, Anthony Green wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 02:35, Caolan McNamara wrote: > > I've some patches at http://people.redhat.com/caolanm/gcj/ to start off > > building OOo 1.9.61 with gcj/gij as java replacement. > > > Minor issues are building the modified rhino module, and some odds and > > ends in the wizards and qadev modules > > Check out rhug for autotooled gcj enabled rhino. There's even an RPM > spec file. http://sources.redhat.com/rhug Actually I had a peek when I went looking at rhino, but apparently the extracted bits of rhino in OOo include some stuff that isn't built in the rhug rhino. Though the OOo rhino is low priority, OOo can live without it. C. From dwmw2 at infradead.org Wed Nov 17 18:50:43 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:50:43 +0000 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100641985.4199.5.camel@kyrre> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> <1100634962.14162.43.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1100638432.2682.44.camel@kyrre> <1100639274.14162.54.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1100641985.4199.5.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100717443.8191.7109.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 22:53 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > Well - two guys in my class got themselvs a mac. Now half the class > wants a mac: > - It looks shiny (including on-screen) Shiny is good.... and of course it also runs Fedora :) -- dwmw2 From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 17 19:03:19 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:03:19 -0500 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1100718199.2463.57.camel@shiva> Hi, update i yum installed gdm on the client along with the other 55 pkgs in the dependency list and then logged out and back in to create the .Xauthority file then i got this error [root at store-lan1-100 ~]# cd /usr/share/stateless/ [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# python bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot Traceback (most recent call last): File "bootstrap.py", line 35, in ? import gtk.glade so i yum installed pygtk2-libglade and now when i run the command, a gui interface pops up on my workstation for a brief second and then i get this error [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# python bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot Traceback (most recent call last): File "bootstrap.py", line 324, in ? run ('aware-of-vacuity.boston.redhat.com', 'dc=sml-demo,dc=devel,dc=redhat,dc=com', True) File "bootstrap.py", line 321, in run gui.run() File "bootstrap.py", line 118, in run r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, self.debug) TypeError: __init__() takes exactly 3 arguments (4 given) thx in advance, Peter Schobel ~ On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 06:02, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 13:16 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > i'm having a few problems with setting up stateless linux for the > > rsync-based cached instantiation model > > > > first of all, i couldn't get the post install script in the kickstart > > file to work. and i'm not sure why because i could not see any output > > from that script but i know that when the system would reboot, the > > stateless-client package would not be installed > > What I was doing in the end was: > > - Rather than using the yum-from-kickstart hack I'd recommend copying > that stateless-* and readonly-root RPMs into a rawhide install tree > and then doing: > > $> genhdlist --hdlist /path/to/install/tree/Fedora/base/hdlist --productpath Fedora /path/to/tree > > - And then using the kickstart file attached. > > It'd be great if you could confirm that works and send patches for the > HOWTO. > > Cheers, > Mark. From nalin at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 19:09:10 2004 From: nalin at redhat.com (Nalin Dahyabhai) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:09:10 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041117 changes In-Reply-To: <87fz38sh28.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> References: <200411171014.iAHAEoo30293@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <87fz38sh28.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> Message-ID: <20041117190910.GB20101@redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 03:09:35PM +0100, Enrico Scholz wrote: > buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) writes: > > > python-ldap-0:2.0.1-3 > > --------------------- > > * Tue Nov 16 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai - 0:2.0.1-3 > > - rebuild > > Why are we still at 0.2.0.1? Current version is 0.2.0.5 with important > (for me) fixes in SASL bind. This rebuild was done to account for the python version change, which needs to ripple out to some packages yet. Cheers, Nalin From jwz at jwz.org Wed Nov 17 19:17:20 2004 From: jwz at jwz.org (Jamie Zawinski) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:17:20 -0800 Subject: rescue boot References: <419B26E5.76D0A8C4@jwz.org> <1100688129.19380.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419B2B83.273029DC@jwz.org> <20041117104841.GO10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <419BA3C0.1D0081C1@jwz.org> Jakub Jelinek wrote: > > But boot.iso provides rescue functionality. It just needs stage2.img > for that, which it can fetch from various sources (it can be e.g. a local CD, > harddisk with .iso images, FTP/HTTP download of stage2.img from a Fedora > mirror or NFS mount). Once it fetches it, it will offer you a shell prompt. OMFG. What is your problem? You're right, how could I have overlooked how completely obvious and convenient and sensible the current situation is. Clearly there's no need to change anything, ever. Look, if you'd just put a damned busybox or something on the CD, it would actually be *useful* for something that it is *not useful* for now, which is, *actually rescuing* when you don't have easy access to the full distro archive? If you would stop jousting with me to convince yourself that you're right, it might sink in that maybe, just maybe, I have a point here? Why do I bother. -- Jamie Zawinski jwz at jwz.org http://www.jwz.org/ jwz at dnalounge.com http://www.dnalounge.com/ From katzj at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 19:31:15 2004 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:31:15 -0500 Subject: anaconda ftp install In-Reply-To: <1100703645l.3954l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100703645l.3954l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1100719875.1314.22.camel@bree.local.net> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 15:00 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > It seems anaconda just gives up when it has downloaded a bad package. > Now maybe the nic or something on that iMac isn't perfect, but there's > a simple solution for remote installs - check the GPG sig of the > package. If it fails grab it again. That way a clean package is there > for install, even if it takes more than one fetch to get it. We check the md5 bit of the header now and do regrabs if it's at a point that we can. Checking the GPG sig introduces a difficult chicken and the egg problem of where to get the key (especially for cases where people customize their install trees). See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/998 Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 19:32:31 2004 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:32:31 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100719951.1314.24.camel@bree.local.net> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 15:35 +0800, Colin Charles wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 01:56 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > > > Graphical shutdown to go with the graphical bootup? > > > > Better than that, lets just shut down immediately. Once you're logged > > out, there's no reason that this should be as slow as it is. > > Public access terminals, and labs, will not want a user to log out and > let the box immediately shut down > > Also, when I log out of GNOME, there are a tonne of services to stop > "properly", its kinda hard to do it automagically, I'd imagine Most services don't need any magic to shutdown "properly". Why stop ssh via the initscript when all it's going to do is kill the process if you have a killall happening not long afterward. Jeremy From walters at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 19:54:12 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:54:12 -0500 Subject: beta guide for using Apache and SELinux on Fedora Core 3 Message-ID: <1100721252.12098.35.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Hi, A beta version of a guide for using Apache and SELinux together on Fedora Core 3 is available here: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-apache-fc3/ Feedback is appreciated; please send mail to fedora-selinux-list. I'd particularly like to get more canned solutions, such as running Squirrelmail, doing Subversion via mod_dav_svn, etc. Please report bugs here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora%20Core&component=fedora-docs And make the bug block 136427. Thanks! From arjanv at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 20:28:49 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:28:49 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 13:06 +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 01:28 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-asyncsyslog.png > > > > > > syslogd definitely behaves better. It also decreases boot time, though > > > this is not immediately evident since kmodule took longer this time. > > > I've observed this with kudzu probes before. > > > > You running FC3 stock or updated? (There's a 3-4 second+ delay in kmodule > > fixed in the update...) > > I was running initscripts-7.93.5-1 from fedora-updates. I upgraded it > with the one in rawhide now (initscripts-7.96-1), but this only contains > rc.sysinit changes, correct? > Anyway, kmodule does seem more stable now. I also did an "alias floppy > off" and upgraded rhbg (see Daniel's post): > > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-rhgbfix.png > (boot time: 0:46, yay) another interesting test might be the following: disable readahead (both services), store the attached file as /tmp/files and put the following near the top of /etc/rc.sysinit: /usr/sbin/readahead `/bin/cat /tmp/files` like this: # Rerun ourselves through initlog if [ -z "$IN_INITLOG" -a -x /sbin/initlog ]; then exec /sbin/initlog -r /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit fi /usr/sbin/readahead `/bin/cat /tmp/files` HOSTNAME=`/bin/hostname` HOSTTYPE=`uname -m` unamer=`uname -r` this should make the boot almost diskless except for the first few seconds. -------------- next part -------------- /.autofsck /bin/basename /bin/bash /bin/cat /bin/chgrp /bin/chmod /bin/chown /bin/cp /bin/cut /bin/date /bin/dd /bin/dmesg /bin/dumpkeys /bin/env /bin/gawk /bin/grep /bin/gzip /bin/hostname /bin/ipcalc /bin/kbd_mode /bin/ln /bin/loadkeys /bin/ls /bin/mkdir /bin/mktemp /bin/mount /bin/nice /bin/rm /bin/sed /bin/setfont /bin/sleep /bin/sort /bin/touch /bin/true /bin/uname /bin/unicode_start /bin/usleep /etc /etc/acpi/events /etc/acpi/events/sample.conf /etc/alchemist/namespace/printconf/local.adl /etc/alchemist/namespace/printconf/rpm.adl /etc/alchemist/switchboard/printconf.swb.adl /etc/aliases /etc/aliases.db /etc/alsa/alsa.conf /etc/anacrontab /etc/asound.state /etc/auto.master /etc/bashrc /etc/blkid.tab /etc/blkid.tab-R1c7xT /etc/cpuspeed.conf /etc/cron.d /etc/crontab /etc/cups /etc/cups/certs/0 /etc/cups/classes.conf /etc/cups/cupsd.conf /etc/cups/mime.convs /etc/cups/mime.types /etc/cups/ppds.dat /etc/cups/printers.conf /etc/cups/pstoraster.convs /etc/dbus-1/system.conf /etc/dbus-1/system.d /etc/dbus-1/system.d/cups.conf /etc/dbus-1/system.d/cups-config-daemon-dbus.conf /etc/dbus-1/system.d/hal.conf /etc/dbus-1/system.d/NetworkManager.conf /etc/dbus-1/system.d/NetworkManagerInfo.conf /etc/dbus-1/system.d/printdriverselector.conf /etc/dev.d/default /etc/dev.d/fd0 /etc/dev.d/sound /etc/dev.d/sound/alsa.dev /etc/DIR_COLORS /etc/DIR_COLORS.xterm /etc/environment /etc/fedora-release /etc/fonts/fonts.conf /etc/fonts/local.conf /etc/fstab /etc/.fstab.hal.5 /etc/.fstab.hal.8 /etc/.fstab.hal.n /etc/group /etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc /etc/gtk-2.0/i386-redhat-linux-gnu/gdk-pixbuf.loaders /etc/gtk-2.0/i386-redhat-linux-gnu/gtk.immodules /etc/hal/capability.d /etc/hal/capability.d/printer_update.hal /etc/hal/device.d /etc/hal/device.d/printer_remove.hal /etc/hal/hald.conf /etc/hal/property.d /etc/host.conf /etc/hosts /etc/hosts.allow /etc/hosts.deny /etc/hotplug/blacklist /etc/hotplug.d/default /etc/hotplug.d/default/default.hotplug /etc/hotplug/hotplug.functions /etc/hotplug/net.agent /etc/howl/mDNSResponder.conf /etc/idmapd.conf /etc/initlog.conf /etc/inittab /etc/inputrc /etc/iproute2/rt_scopes /etc/issue /etc/ld.so.cache /etc/localtime /etc/lvm/.cache /etc/lvm/lvm.conf /etc/mail /etc/mail/local-host-names /etc/mail/Makefile /etc/mail/sendmail.cf /etc/mail/submit.cf /etc/mail/trusted-users /etc/makedev.d /etc/makedev.d/00macros /etc/makedev.d/alsa /etc/makedev.d/ataraid /etc/makedev.d/cciss /etc/makedev.d/cdrom /etc/makedev.d/console /etc/makedev.d/dac960 /etc/makedev.d/ftape /etc/makedev.d/generic /etc/makedev.d/ia64 /etc/makedev.d/ibcs /etc/makedev.d/ida /etc/makedev.d/ide /etc/makedev.d/ipfilter /etc/makedev.d/isdn /etc/makedev.d/linux1394 /etc/makedev.d/linux-2.6.x /etc/makedev.d/mouse /etc/makedev.d/qic /etc/makedev.d/raid /etc/makedev.d/redhat /etc/makedev.d/s390 /etc/makedev.d/sound /etc/makedev.d/std /etc/makedev.d/undocumented /etc/makedev.d/usb /etc/makedev.d/v4l /etc/modprobe.conf /etc/modprobe.conf.dist /etc/motd /etc/mtab /etc/mtab~ /etc/mtab~1255 /etc/mtab~1256 /etc/mtab~1257 /etc/mtab~1258 /etc/mtab~1365 /etc/mtab~1411 /etc/mtab~1866 /etc/nsswitch.conf /etc/ntp.conf /etc/ntp/step-tickers /etc/pam.d/gdm /etc/pam.d/other /etc/pam.d/sshd /etc/pam.d/system-auth /etc/pango/i386-redhat-linux-gnu/pango.modules /etc/passwd /etc/pcmcia/config /etc/profile /etc/profile.d /etc/profile.d/colorls.sh /etc/profile.d/glib2.sh /etc/profile.d/gnome-ssh-askpass.sh /etc/profile.d/krb5.sh /etc/profile.d/lang.sh /etc/profile.d/less.sh /etc/profile.d/vim.sh /etc/profile.d/which-2.sh /etc/protocols /etc/rc.d/init.d/acpid /etc/rc.d/init.d/anacron /etc/rc.d/init.d/apmd /etc/rc.d/init.d/atd /etc/rc.d/init.d/autofs /etc/rc.d/init.d/cpuspeed /etc/rc.d/init.d/crond /etc/rc.d/init.d/cups /etc/rc.d/init.d/cups-config-daemon /etc/rc.d/init.d/firstboot /etc/rc.d/init.d/functions /etc/rc.d/init.d/gpm /etc/rc.d/init.d/haldaemon /etc/rc.d/init.d/iptables /etc/rc.d/init.d/irqbalance /etc/rc.d/init.d/isdn /etc/rc.d/init.d/kudzu /etc/rc.d/init.d/mdmonitor /etc/rc.d/init.d/mDNSResponder /etc/rc.d/init.d/messagebus /etc/rc.d/init.d/netfs /etc/rc.d/init.d/network /etc/rc.d/init.d/nfslock /etc/rc.d/init.d/nifd /etc/rc.d/init.d/pcmcia /etc/rc.d/init.d/portmap /etc/rc.d/init.d/rhnsd /etc/rc.d/init.d/rpcgssd /etc/rc.d/init.d/rpcidmapd /etc/rc.d/init.d/rpcsvcgssd /etc/rc.d/init.d/sendmail /etc/rc.d/init.d/smartd /etc/rc.d/init.d/sshd /etc/rc.d/init.d/xfs /etc/rc.d/init.d/xinetd /etc/rc.d/rc /etc/rc.d/rc5.d /etc/rc.d/rc.local /etc/resolv.conf /etc/rhgb/temp/display /etc/rhgb/temp/rhgb-console /etc/rhgb/temp/XFree86.0.log /etc/rpc /etc/security/console.perms /etc/security/limits.conf /etc/security/pam_env.conf /etc/selinux/config /etc/services /etc/shadow /etc/smartd.conf /etc/ssh/moduli /etc/ssh/sshd_config /etc/ssh/ssh_host_dsa_key /etc/ssh/ssh_host_key /etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key /etc/sysconfig/autofs /etc/sysconfig/clock /etc/sysconfig/desktop /etc/sysconfig/firstboot /etc/sysconfig/harddisks /etc/sysconfig/hwconf /etc/sysconfig/i18n /etc/sysconfig/init /etc/sysconfig/iptables /etc/sysconfig/iptables-config /etc/sysconfig/irqbalance /etc/sysconfig/keyboard /etc/sysconfig/kudzu /etc/sysconfig/network /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0 /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-lo /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-aliases /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-post /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup-routes /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/network-functions /etc/sysconfig/pcmcia /etc/sysconfig/sendmail /etc/sysconfig/xinetd /etc/sysctl.conf /etc/termcap /etc/udev/devices /etc/udev/permissions.d /etc/udev/permissions.d/50-udev.permissions /etc/udev/rules.d /etc/udev/rules.d/10-wacom.rules /etc/udev/rules.d/50-udev.rules /etc/udev/scripts/check-cdrom.sh /etc/udev/scripts/ide-media.sh /etc/udev/scripts/MAKEDEV.dev /etc/udev/scripts/pam_console.dev /etc/udev/udev.conf /etc/X11/dm/Sessions /etc/X11/dm/Sessions/gnome.desktop /etc/X11/fs/config /etc/X11/gdm/gdm.conf /etc/X11/prefdm /etc/X11/xdm/Xsetup_0 /etc/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/Xresources /etc/X11/xserver/SecurityPolicy /etc/xinetd.conf /etc/xinetd.d /etc/xinetd.d/chargen /etc/xinetd.d/chargen-udp /etc/xinetd.d/cups-lpd 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/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/rules/xorg.lst /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/symbols/pc/pc /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/symbols/pc/us /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/types/basic /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/types/complete /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/types/extra /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/types/iso9995 /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/types/mousekeys /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/types/pc /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/xkbcomp /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/XKeysymDB /var/cache/alchemist/printconf.local /var/cache/alchemist/printconf.local/wm/_PRINTCONF_BACKEND_ /var/cache/alchemist/printconf.rpm /var/cache/alchemist/printconf.rpm/wm/_PRINTCONF_BACKEND_ /var/gdm/:0.Xauth /var/gdm/.fonts.cache-1 /var/gdm/.fonts.cache-1.NEW /var/gdm/.fonts.cache-1.TMP-L6ESLa /var/gdm/.gdmfifo /var/lib/alternatives/print /var/lib/dhcp/dhclient-eth0.leases /var/lib/nfs/rpc_pipefs/nfs /var/lib/nfs/statd/sm /var/lib/nfs/statd/sm.bak /var/lib/nfs/statd/state /var/lib/random-seed /var/lib/rpm /var/lib/xkb/server-0.xkm /var/lib/xkb/server-1.xkm /var/lock /var/lock/lvm /var/lock/rpm /var/lock/subsys /var/lock/subsys/acpid /var/lock/subsys/atd /var/lock/subsys/crond /var/lock/subsys/cups /var/lock/subsys/cups-config-daemon /var/lock/subsys/gpm /var/lock/subsys/haldaemon /var/lock/subsys/iptables /var/lock/subsys/kudzu /var/lock/subsys/local /var/lock/subsys/mDNSResponder /var/lock/subsys/messagebus /var/lock/subsys/netfs /var/lock/subsys/network /var/lock/subsys/nfslock /var/lock/subsys/nifd /var/lock/subsys/portmap /var/lock/subsys/rpc.idmapd /var/lock/subsys/sendmail /var/lock/subsys/smartd /var/lock/subsys/sm-client /var/lock/subsys/sshd /var/lock/subsys/xfs /var/lock/subsys/xinetd /var/log/acpid /var/log/cups/error_log /var/log/dmesg /var/log/gdm/:0.log /var/log/lastlog /var/log/wtmp /var/log/Xorg.0.log /var/run /var/run/atd.pid /var/run/console /var/run/crond.pid /var/run/cups-config-daemon.pid /var/run/cupsd.pid /var/run/dbus /var/run/dhclient-eth0.pid /var/run/gdm.pid /var/run/gpm.pid /var/run/haldaemon.pid /var/run/mdadm /var/run/mdmpd /var/run/mDNSResponder.pid /var/run/messagebus.pid /var/run/netreport /var/run/nifd.pid /var/run/nscd /var/run/ppp /var/run/rpc.statd.pid /var/run/saslauthd /var/run/sendmail.pid /var/run/sm-client.pid /var/run/sshd.pid /var/run/sudo /var/run/sudo/root /var/run/usb /var/run/utmp /var/run/xfs.pid /var/run/xinetd.pid /var/spool/anacron/cron.daily /var/spool/anacron/cron.monthly /var/spool/anacron/cron.weekly /var/spool/at /var/spool/clientmqueue /var/spool/cron /var/spool/cups /var/spool/mqueue From drepper at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 20:29:25 2004 From: drepper at redhat.com (Ulrich Drepper) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:29:25 -0800 Subject: FC3 DNS resolver issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <419BB4A5.50301@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Gianluca Sforna wrote: > I am experiencing what I consider somewhat "strange" but probably > there could be some sort of logic behind, due to the great amount of > changes introduced in FC3. Try adding ndots: 0 to your /etc/resolv.conf. - -- ? Ulrich Drepper ? Red Hat, Inc. ? 444 Castro St ? Mountain View, CA ? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBm7Sl2ijCOnn/RHQRAlqmAJ9R4IInn9ShIH3CdknTQzMmU/RufACeN9LE roZ1Ks1GqUu4qjmzwilxPMM= =HYQ4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Wed Nov 17 20:49:33 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:49:33 -0700 Subject: ip_conntrack and IPv6 In-Reply-To: <1100701676.8191.7028.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> References: <1100669885.25350.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100669975.25350.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100701676.8191.7028.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100724573.2785.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Well, that is a crying shame. Out of curiosity does RedHat seem much demand for squid use in business, and if so, are they helping with development? Just a question. I understand they have to be quite judicious about where and how they spend the development resources (including money) that they have. Trever On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 14:27 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 22:39 -0700, Trever L. Adams wrote: > > Arg, yes bad form replying to myself. Please, forgive me for all of my > > stupidity today. Add ipv6 enabled squid to that as well (it is not to > > hide ip addresses, but because of the caching feature as well as the > > fact I have filters I can plug into it). > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=131558 > > -- > dwmw2 > -- If it's there and you can see it, it's REAL If it's there and you can't see it, it's TRANSPARENT If it's not there and you can see it, it's VIRTUAL If it's not there and you can't see it, it's GONE! -- Unknown From notting at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 20:52:56 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:52:56 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Ziga Mahkovec (ziga.mahkovec at klika.si) said: > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 01:28 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-asyncsyslog.png > > > > > > syslogd definitely behaves better. It also decreases boot time, though > > > this is not immediately evident since kmodule took longer this time. > > > I've observed this with kudzu probes before. > > > > You running FC3 stock or updated? (There's a 3-4 second+ delay in kmodule > > fixed in the update...) > > I was running initscripts-7.93.5-1 from fedora-updates. Ah, ok, that has the kmodule fix. > I upgraded it > with the one in rawhide now (initscripts-7.96-1), but this only contains > rc.sysinit changes, correct? Correct. Guaranteed to be faster, and almost certainly guaranteed to break something. Bill From kyrre at solution-forge.net Wed Nov 17 20:44:22 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:44:22 +0100 Subject: FC3 DNS resolver issue In-Reply-To: <419BB4A5.50301@redhat.com> References: <419BB4A5.50301@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100724262.3952.2.camel@kyrre> ons, 17.11.2004 kl. 21.29 skrev Ulrich Drepper: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Gianluca Sforna wrote: > > > I am experiencing what I consider somewhat "strange" but probably > > there could be some sort of logic behind, due to the great amount of > > changes introduced in FC3. > > Try adding > > ndots: 0 > > to your /etc/resolv.conf. > > - -- > ? Ulrich Drepper ? Red Hat, Inc. ? 444 Castro St ? Mountain View, CA ? > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFBm7Sl2ijCOnn/RHQRAlqmAJ9R4IInn9ShIH3CdknTQzMmU/RufACeN9LE > roZ1Ks1GqUu4qjmzwilxPMM= > =HYQ4 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Yup. This is correct. Reason is not to "kill" master DNS servers... I reported it as a bug... You could also add'em to your hosts-file. Maybe adding a "domain", like .local also would work? (eg "trex.local") Kyrre From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Wed Nov 17 20:54:56 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:54:56 -0700 Subject: rawhide report: 20041117 changes In-Reply-To: <20041117190910.GB20101@redhat.com> References: <200411171014.iAHAEoo30293@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <87fz38sh28.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> <20041117190910.GB20101@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100724896.2785.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> For example, open office and php need to change because of the db changes. So does gnumeric and webalizer. Trever On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 14:09 -0500, Nalin Dahyabhai wrote: > On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 03:09:35PM +0100, Enrico Scholz wrote: > > buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) writes: > > > > > python-ldap-0:2.0.1-3 > > > --------------------- > > > * Tue Nov 16 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai - 0:2.0.1-3 > > > - rebuild > > > > Why are we still at 0.2.0.1? Current version is 0.2.0.5 with important > > (for me) fixes in SASL bind. > > This rebuild was done to account for the python version change, which > needs to ripple out to some packages yet. > > Cheers, > > Nalin > -- "Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans." -- John Lennon From kyrre at solution-forge.net Wed Nov 17 20:54:34 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:54:34 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <200411171738.iAHHc0926258@rio.sci.ccny.cuny.edu> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> <1100634962.14162.43.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1100638432.2682.44.camel@kyrre> <1100639274.14162.54.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <200411171738.iAHHc0926258@rio.sci.ccny.cuny.edu> Message-ID: <1100724874.3952.9.camel@kyrre> ons, 17.11.2004 kl. 18.38 skrev Tim Daly: > Sean, > > I believe that an open science platform is the kind of killer app > you're looking for which will, gradually, convince a fair sized > group of people to use linux. > > First, since is an open enterprise by philosophy (if not in fact). > > Second, there are a large number of freely available scientific apps > > Third, a LiveCD kind of platform can introduce a science platform to > students and professors at minimal impact and cost (Quantian is an > example). > > Fourth, introducing students to these science apps creates a growing > pool of people who learn and learn to need linux to support their skills. > > It will take time but there has already been some discussion of the > concept with RedHat. It would be of interest to them because it opens > up the educational market at minimal cost. It also opens up the science > conference market at the same minimal cost (distribution of LiveCDs). > > It is also of interest to developers of these packages because they > have the "leverage" of being included in these distributions and a > common method of sharing code and research work. > > Such systems we've termed "Doyen systems" (a doyen is the senior or > most experienced person in a group). An effort is underway to build > such a science platform using a LiveCD for distribution and a Wiki > for the host portion of the system. > > This won't attract everyone but it has the key aspect of attracting > students, similar to the advantage Unix had in its early life. > > Tim Daly While you are mentioning it - where can i find such scientific apps? I am perticurlary interested in a chemistry drawing app (have you ever tried drawing organic molecules in OO? Don't even think about it...), and maybe a free math thingy similar to matematica. A user-friendly frontend to gnuplot which has the capability to export images would also be nice. My school might also be looking for a Linux app to drive their datalogging equipment (don't ask me what they are... Looks like little black boxes which is connected to USB, with two Jack and three "DIN" like inputs in front, where you plug in the acctual equipment, such as distance/speed/acceleration-meters, temperature-sensors, pH-meters etc.) And on top of all of those demands - it would be nice to get them by RPM. Plug'n'play (pray?) software installation. From whooperhsd at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 20:58:22 2004 From: whooperhsd at gmail.com (William Hooper) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:58:22 -0500 Subject: rescue boot In-Reply-To: <419BA3C0.1D0081C1@jwz.org> References: <419B26E5.76D0A8C4@jwz.org> <1100688129.19380.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419B2B83.273029DC@jwz.org> <20041117104841.GO10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <419BA3C0.1D0081C1@jwz.org> Message-ID: <6314dfde04111712587c7b3ff1@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:17:20 -0800, Jamie Zawinski wrote: > Jakub Jelinek wrote: > > > > But boot.iso provides rescue functionality. It just needs stage2.img > > for that, which it can fetch from various sources (it can be e.g. a local CD, > > harddisk with .iso images, FTP/HTTP download of stage2.img from a Fedora > > mirror or NFS mount). Once it fetches it, it will offer you a shell prompt. > > OMFG. What is your problem? I would ask you the same thing. [snip] > Look, if you'd just put a damned busybox or something on the CD, it > would actually be *useful* for something that it is *not useful* for > now, which is, *actually rescuing* when you don't have easy access to > the full distro archive? As everyone has been trying to tell you, that is what the rescue CD is for. What would be the purpose of shipping two ~80MB isos that do the same thing? Adding a hammer head to a screwdriver doesn't make it the right tool for the job. -- William Hooper From notting at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 20:59:15 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:59:15 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100719951.1314.24.camel@bree.local.net> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100719951.1314.24.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: <20041117205915.GB18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: > Most services don't need any magic to shutdown "properly". Why stop ssh > via the initscript when all it's going to do is kill the process if you > have a killall happening not long afterward. Exactly... what needs to be done here is tagging of all the scripts/services that can be shut down cleanly, then some quick changes to /etc/rc should cut about half the time out of shutdown (based on some tests I ran ~10 months ago or so.) Bill From kyrre at solution-forge.net Wed Nov 17 20:55:59 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:55:59 +0100 Subject: Stateless Linux experience... In-Reply-To: <419B62E0.4060204@jimmy.harvard.edu> References: <200411171405.iAHE5nGp007976@mx3.redhat.com> <419B62E0.4060204@jimmy.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <1100724958.3952.11.camel@kyrre> ons, 17.11.2004 kl. 15.40 skrev Jason Powers: > If you don't have GQ, slap the phpldapadmin application on your > computer. Since you have to run apache anyway, there's no harm in being > able to see the ldap's internals while you work. > i was just about to mention phpldapadmin. *great* app, i installed it (through apt) on my Debian server box. > Jason > > Mike Herrick wrote: > >> No html mail thanks. > > > > > > Sorry 'bout that. > > > > > >>>6) Because of the RAM problem above, I'm not sure that subsequent > >>>invocations of "stateless-snapshooter -n -p DemoSystem" actually > >>>worked as designed. When I execute "stateless-snapshooter -l", I get: > >>> > >>>Protosystems: > >>> DemoSystem > >>> > >>>But it doesn't say anything about snapshots. This makes me nervous. > >>>What should the output look like? > >> > >> Yeah, looks like there aren't any snapshots listed in LDAP. > >> > >> Are there snapshots in /srv/stateless/snapshots? > >> > >> Maybe use GQ (GUI LDAP client) to poke around in LDAP to see if any > >>record of the snapshots are being made? > > > > > > Part of the problem may be that I hadn't run 'stateless-servers -a'. Do I > > have to run this before or after taking a snapshot? What values do I give > > for nfs_path and rsync_path? > > > > I don't have GQ, but here's the output of ldapsearch: > > > > [root at localhost tmp]# ldapsearch -x -b 'dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com' > > '(objectclass=*)' > > # extended LDIF > > # > > # LDAPv3 > > # base with scope sub > > # filter: (objectclass=*) > > # requesting: ALL > > # > > > > # stateless-test.example.com > > dn: dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > dc: stateless-test > > objectClass: domain > > > > # people, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: ou=people,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: organizationalUnit > > ou: people > > > > # groups, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: ou=groups,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: organizationalUnit > > ou: groups > > > > # services, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: organizationalUnit > > ou: services > > > > # stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: statelessContainer > > dc: stateless > > > > # hosts, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: dc=hosts,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: statelessContainer > > dc: hosts > > > > # servers, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: statelessContainer > > dc: servers > > > > # demo-group, groups, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: cn=demo-group,ou=groups,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: posixGroup > > cn: demo-group > > gidNumber: 1000 > > memberUid: group-name > > > > # demo-user, people, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: uid=demo-user,ou=people,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: inetOrgPerson > > objectClass: posixAccount > > objectClass: shadowAccount > > uid: demo-user > > uidNumber: 1000 > > gidNumber: 1000 > > cn: Demo User > > sn: Demo User > > homeDirectory: /home/users/demo-user > > loginShell: /bin/bash > > userPassword:: e1NTSEF9QVRNVUNxTnNod0g2enE1OTlHWnFOc3FpSzd5UnJSb1c= > > > > # DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: > > statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateles > > s-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: statelessConfiguration > > statelessConfigurationName: DemoSystem > > statelessDefaultSnapshotName: DemoSystem-3 > > > > # DemoSystem-1, DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: > > statelessSnapshotName=DemoSystem-1,statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,d > > c=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > statelessSnapshotName: DemoSystem-1 > > objectClass: statelessSnapshot > > statelessSnapshotServer: 6.6.6.1 > > > > # 00:02:b3:41:29:43, hosts, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: > > macAddress=00:02:b3:41:29:43,dc=hosts,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateles > > s-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: statelessClient > > macAddress: 00:02:b3:41:29:43 > > statelessConfigurationName: DemoSystem > > > > # status, 00:02:b3:41:29:43, hosts, stateless, services, > > stateless-test.coren > > te.com > > dn: > > dc=status,macAddress=00:02:b3:41:29:43,dc=hosts,dc=stateless,ou=services,d > > c=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: statelessClientStatus > > dc: status > > > > # DemoSystem-2, DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: > > statelessSnapshotName=DemoSystem-2,statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,d > > c=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > statelessSnapshotName: DemoSystem-2 > > objectClass: statelessSnapshot > > statelessSnapshotServer: 6.6.6.1 > > > > # DemoSystem, servers, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: > > cn=DemoSystem,dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=cor > > ente,dc=com > > objectClass: statelessServer > > cn: DemoSystem > > > > # --nfs-path, servers, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: > > cn=--nfs-path,dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=cor > > ente,dc=com > > objectClass: statelessServer > > cn: --nfs-path > > > > # /srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem, servers, stateless, services, > > state > > less-test.example.com > > dn: > > cn=/srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem,dc=servers,dc=stateless,ou=servi > > ces,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > objectClass: statelessServer > > cn: /srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem > > > > # DemoSystem-3, DemoSystem, stateless, services, stateless-test.example.com > > dn: > > statelessSnapshotName=DemoSystem-3,statelessConfigurationName=DemoSystem,d > > c=stateless,ou=services,dc=stateless-test,dc=example,dc=com > > statelessSnapshotName: DemoSystem-3 > > objectClass: statelessSnapshot > > statelessSnapshotServer: 6.6.6.1 > > > > # search result > > search: 2 > > result: 0 Success > > > > # numResponses: 19 > > # numEntries: 18 > > [root at localhost tmp]# df > > Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on > > /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00 > > 10095152 5916920 3665416 62% / > > /dev/hda1 101086 8947 86920 10% /boot > > none 127684 0 127684 0% /dev/shm > > /dev/mapper/VGStateless-DemoSystem > > 4128448 3357000 561736 86% > > /srv/stateless/protosystems/DemoSystem > > /dev/mapper/VGStateless-DemoSystem_1 > > 4128448 3338300 580436 86% > > /srv/stateless/snapshots/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-1 > > /dev/mapper/VGStateless-DemoSystem_3 > > 4128448 3338300 580436 86% > > /srv/stateless/snapshots/DemoSystem/DemoSystem-3 > > [root at localhost tmp]# stateless-snapshooter --list > > Protosystems: > > DemoSystem > > > > > >>>With these changes, I was able to get a machine to boot from the > >>>snapshot, but there were many errors/warnings stemming from having a > >>>read-only root (and /var) filesystem on a diskless client. > >>> > >>>When I finally got the machine to boot, it wouldn't let me login! I > >>>suspect some read-only root problem during the login process that > >>>prevented the login process from completing. > >> > >> Its possible the snapshot process never completed, and so that > >>snapshot > >>wasn't properly prepared for readonly booting. > > > > > > The readonly-root package was installed in the protosystem, and I verified > > that /etc/rc.readonly exists in both the protosystem and the snapshot. > > > > Mike. > > > > From kyrre at solution-forge.net Wed Nov 17 20:58:24 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:58:24 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <20041117171408.414a2331.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100679863.13504.9.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <20041117151416.GD760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041117171408.414a2331.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <1100725103.3952.14.camel@kyrre> ons, 17.11.2004 kl. 17.14 skrev Michael Schwendt: > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:14:16 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 03:24:23AM -0500, Ivan Gyurdiev wrote: > > > to expect the user to sign up for 20 different bugzillas > > > where you will be told to download the cvs version and retest. > > > The burden of bug-tracking should not be on the user. > > > > There are more users than developers, and in the case you aren't paying > > for support youu can't expect it. If you file a bug in the right place > > it'll be seen by the right people. Otherwise every developer has to search > > for each bug in 100 bugzillas and can't do statistics on them. > > Or packagers/package-maintainers within a community project spend an > awful lot of time forwarding issues and RFEs from many users, only to > find out that when an upstream developer responds, the original > reporter doesn't answer anymore or has lost interest. > > Ultimately, in a community packaging project, small teams (with possibly > redundant structures) of users, developers and packagers pick software > of their interest and maintain packages painstakingly and with close > contact to upstream projects. There should be an automatic "forward" button in bugzilla, which the developer could click, and have a "linked" bug-report automatically created at upstream bugzilla. The reporter should then be able to use RH bugzilla, but having it automagically forewarded to upstream bugzilla. From tiemann at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 21:02:11 2004 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:02:11 -0500 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <200411171738.iAHHc0926258@rio.sci.ccny.cuny.edu> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <20041115202312.GD5569@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100632818.2682.1.camel@kyrre> <1100634962.14162.43.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1100638432.2682.44.camel@kyrre> <1100639274.14162.54.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <200411171738.iAHHc0926258@rio.sci.ccny.cuny.edu> Message-ID: <1100725330.6134.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> Tim's Doyen concept (and what quantian.org have done) are quite cool. In my travels to australia I just discovered a National Data Network project that is going to make a raft of data available via and to all sorts of OSS software. See http://blogs.redhat.com/executive/archives/000171.html M On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 12:38, Tim Daly wrote: > Sean, > > I believe that an open science platform is the kind of killer app > you're looking for which will, gradually, convince a fair sized > group of people to use linux. > > First, since is an open enterprise by philosophy (if not in fact). > > Second, there are a large number of freely available scientific apps > > Third, a LiveCD kind of platform can introduce a science platform to > students and professors at minimal impact and cost (Quantian is an > example). > > Fourth, introducing students to these science apps creates a growing > pool of people who learn and learn to need linux to support their skills. > > It will take time but there has already been some discussion of the > concept with RedHat. It would be of interest to them because it opens > up the educational market at minimal cost. It also opens up the science > conference market at the same minimal cost (distribution of LiveCDs). > > It is also of interest to developers of these packages because they > have the "leverage" of being included in these distributions and a > common method of sharing code and research work. > > Such systems we've termed "Doyen systems" (a doyen is the senior or > most experienced person in a group). An effort is underway to build > such a science platform using a LiveCD for distribution and a Wiki > for the host portion of the system. > > This won't attract everyone but it has the key aspect of attracting > students, similar to the advantage Unix had in its early life. > > Tim Daly From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Wed Nov 17 21:06:01 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:06:01 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100725103.3952.14.camel@kyrre> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100679863.13504.9.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <20041117151416.GD760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041117171408.414a2331.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1100725103.3952.14.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100725561.15684.10.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 21:58 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > There should be an automatic "forward" button in bugzilla, which the > developer could click, and have a "linked" bug-report automatically > created at upstream bugzilla. The reporter should then be able to use RH > bugzilla, but having it automagically forewarded to upstream bugzilla. Don't tell us. Go file a bug (upstream) on the Bugzilla project. > -- Sean Middleditch AwesomePlay Productions, Inc. From nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU Wed Nov 17 21:10:42 2004 From: nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Fernando Lopez-Lezcano) Date: 17 Nov 2004 13:10:42 -0800 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <20041117083453.37468a50.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <20041117083453.37468a50.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <1100725842.5533.146.camel@cmn37.stanford.edu> [sigh, I think I've seen this thread before :-] On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 23:34, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:08:28 +0100 (CET), Dag Wieers wrote: > > Also explain me why I spend 3 months or more on the fedora.us mailinglist, > > like so many other existing packagers (matthias, axel, rudolf, fernando, > > russ, ..) and each one of them apparently decided not to. > > Which name did Rudolf use on that list? Wanted to check out his > comments, but cannot find his name in the list archives at all. > Concerning Fernando, there's a total of 7 messages from him in the > archives. One message on Nov 8th 2003, the other six between Dec 20th > 2003 and Dec 22nd 2003. I had a nice initial exchange of personal emails with Phillip Compton and I subscribed to the list on June 10 2003. Maybe an explanation is in order to put things in context in my particular case. At that point in time the goal of Planet CCRMA repository (a side effect of the working linux environment for audio and music that I maintain at CCRMA[*]) implied having low latency tweaked kernels available, a matching alsa audio subsystem and other stuff I surely forget that made nonsensical its inclusion in fedora.us. Available time was also a factor, doing oss-only packages would not have made any sense at all. After a while it became more and more clear to me that fedora.us (or at least the people that were being heard on the lists) was not going to accept the reality of existing, working and growing 3rd party repositories, and the (to me) obvious need of some degree of cooperation. While I understand the rational arguments behind that position, I have seen - in my experience - that rationalizing reality away does not work. -- Fernando [*] http://ccrma.stanford.edu http://ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/ From teetere at charter.net Wed Nov 17 21:21:02 2004 From: teetere at charter.net (Eric Teeter) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:21:02 -0600 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1100724874.3952.9.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Kyrre Ness Sjobak Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 2:55 PM To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core Subject: Re: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux ons, 17.11.2004 kl. 18.38 skrev Tim Daly: > Sean, > > I believe that an open science platform is the kind of killer app > you're looking for which will, gradually, convince a fair sized > group of people to use linux. > > First, since is an open enterprise by philosophy (if not in fact). > > Second, there are a large number of freely available scientific apps > > Third, a LiveCD kind of platform can introduce a science platform to > students and professors at minimal impact and cost (Quantian is an > example). > > Fourth, introducing students to these science apps creates a growing > pool of people who learn and learn to need linux to support their skills. > > It will take time but there has already been some discussion of the > concept with RedHat. It would be of interest to them because it opens > up the educational market at minimal cost. It also opens up the science > conference market at the same minimal cost (distribution of LiveCDs). > > It is also of interest to developers of these packages because they > have the "leverage" of being included in these distributions and a > common method of sharing code and research work. > > Such systems we've termed "Doyen systems" (a doyen is the senior or > most experienced person in a group). An effort is underway to build > such a science platform using a LiveCD for distribution and a Wiki > for the host portion of the system. > > This won't attract everyone but it has the key aspect of attracting > students, similar to the advantage Unix had in its early life. > > Tim Daly While you are mentioning it - where can i find such scientific apps? I am perticurlary interested in a chemistry drawing app (have you ever tried drawing organic molecules in OO? Don't even think about it...), and maybe a free math thingy similar to matematica. A user-friendly frontend to gnuplot which has the capability to export images would also be nice. Check out there are all sorts of Chem Programs @ http://zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl/~nikodem/linux4chemistry.html Including drawing programChemistry 4-D Draw for Java My school might also be looking for a Linux app to drive their datalogging equipment (don't ask me what they are... Looks like little black boxes which is connected to USB, with two Jack and three "DIN" like inputs in front, where you plug in the acctual equipment, such as distance/speed/acceleration-meters, temperature-sensors, pH-meters etc.) And on top of all of those demands - it would be nice to get them by RPM. Plug'n'play (pray?) software installation. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list From buildsys at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 21:23:35 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:23:35 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041117 changes Message-ID: <200411172123.iAHLNZd05531@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> From jwz at jwz.org Wed Nov 17 21:33:51 2004 From: jwz at jwz.org (Jamie Zawinski) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:33:51 -0800 Subject: rescue boot References: <419B26E5.76D0A8C4@jwz.org> <1100688129.19380.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419B2B83.273029DC@jwz.org> <20041117104841.GO10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <419BA3C0.1D0081C1@jwz.org> <6314dfde04111712587c7b3ff1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <419BC3BF.775A63A8@jwz.org> William Hooper wrote: > > As everyone has been trying to tell you, that is what the rescue CD is > for. What would be the purpose of shipping two ~80MB isos that do the > same thing? Exactly. Why ship two CDs when one would do? 80 MB != 200 K: -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 202684 Apr 21 2004 /sbin/busybox -- Jamie Zawinski jwz at jwz.org http://www.jwz.org/ jwz at dnalounge.com http://www.dnalounge.com/ From fedoradev at sandersweb.net Wed Nov 17 21:35:59 2004 From: fedoradev at sandersweb.net (David Sanders) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:35:59 -0500 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200411171635.59958.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> On Tuesday 16 November 2004 10:32 am, Rex Dieter wrote: > Any ideas/pointers on getting FC3 running on (MS) VirtualPC (2004)? It > installs fine, but doesn't completely get into multiuser (or even > single-user) mode after that. Can't get in far enough to much snooping > around or even look at the logs. > > -- Rex See instructions/kernel at http://vpc.visualwin.com From fedoradev at sandersweb.net Wed Nov 17 22:09:59 2004 From: fedoradev at sandersweb.net (David Sanders) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:09:59 -0500 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <20041117143011.GA760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <419AB135.6090303@redhat.com> <20041117143011.GA760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200411171709.59788.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> On Wednesday 17 November 2004 9:30 am, Alan Cox wrote: > On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 04:02:29PM -1000, Warren Togami wrote: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138744 > > According to this guy it is the 4G/4G split that virtualPC is unable to > > support. Unfortunately this is not our responsibility, and only > > Microsoft can fix this. Good luck convincing them. > > I doubt they will. 4G/4G is essentially not emulatable on IA32 (ie > legacy 32bit) PC systems. Well at least you can emulate it but it's so > slow... > > Alan Do we need a 4g4g kernel as the default? Not many people are going to be helped anyway. Fedora is the only linux distribution shipping one as far as I know and it is not in the upstream kernels. Perhaps it could be an option? -- David Sanders fedoradev at sandersweb.net From alan at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 22:13:50 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:13:50 -0500 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <200411171709.59788.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> References: <419AB135.6090303@redhat.com> <20041117143011.GA760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200411171709.59788.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> Message-ID: <20041117221350.GA21804@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 05:09:59PM -0500, David Sanders wrote: > Do we need a 4g4g kernel as the default? Not many people are going to be > helped anyway. Fedora is the only linux distribution shipping one as far as > I know and it is not in the upstream kernels. Perhaps it could be an option? 4G/4G does seem to help a lot of workloads. The views are split even inside Red Hat. When it comes to Linux/Linux virtualisation then Xen 2.0 really makes it irrelevant as Xen uses its own kernel variant anyway From pcompton at proteinmedia.com Wed Nov 17 22:25:48 2004 From: pcompton at proteinmedia.com (Phillip Compton) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:25:48 -0500 Subject: rescue boot In-Reply-To: <419BC3BF.775A63A8@jwz.org> References: <419B26E5.76D0A8C4@jwz.org> <1100688129.19380.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419B2B83.273029DC@jwz.org> <20041117104841.GO10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <419BA3C0.1D0081C1@jwz.org> <6314dfde04111712587c7b3ff1@mail.gmail.com> <419BC3BF.775A63A8@jwz.org> Message-ID: <1100730348.18492.18.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 13:33 -0800, Jamie Zawinski wrote: > William Hooper wrote: > > > > As everyone has been trying to tell you, that is what the rescue CD is > > for. What would be the purpose of shipping two ~80MB isos that do the > > same thing? > > Exactly. Why ship two CDs when one would do? > Sure, one would do, but it is convenient to have a little 5mb image to burn when all you want to do is a network install of rawhide. I see no need to change either th recovery disc, or the boot disk. Phil From stuart at terminus.co.uk Wed Nov 17 21:12:11 2004 From: stuart at terminus.co.uk (Stuart Children) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:12:11 +0000 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <20041117205915.GB18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100719951.1314.24.camel@bree.local.net> <20041117205915.GB18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <419BBEAB.3070702@terminus.co.uk> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: > >>Most services don't need any magic to shutdown "properly". Why stop ssh >>via the initscript when all it's going to do is kill the process if you >>have a killall happening not long afterward. Definitely. > Exactly... what needs to be done here is tagging of all the scripts/services > that can be shut down cleanly, then some quick changes to /etc/rc should > cut about half the time out of shutdown (based on some tests I ran ~10 > months ago or so.) How about a "prepare-for-system-shutdown" [1] command to the rc scripts? With the meaning of "save anything you need to 'cos the system's going down shortly" rather than "i want you to exit all your processes right now" (the 'stop' command). For most services this could just be a NOP. Others could trivially call their 'stop' command, or do whatever subset of that is necessary. [1] a more succient name should obviously be used. :) Actually, how about 'save', and 'stop' could in general call that and then do its killings? Of course currently that would still involve the overhead of forking the shell scripts to handle execute each rc command (which would exit almost immediately for the "nothing to save" case). Any feel as to how much of saving it would still be? Cheers -- Stuart From mpeters at mac.com Wed Nov 17 22:45:52 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:45:52 +0000 Subject: anaconda ftp install In-Reply-To: <1100719875.1314.22.camel@bree.local.net> (from katzj@redhat.com on Wed Nov 17 11:31:15 2004) References: <1100703645l.3954l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1100719875.1314.22.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: <1100731552l.2367l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/17/2004 11:31:15 AM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > We check the md5 bit of the header now and do regrabs if it's at a > point > that we can. Checking the GPG sig introduces a difficult chicken and > the egg problem of where to get the key (especially for cases where > people customize their install trees). See > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/998 I did some testing - I think my problem was is a bug in the nic driver for the imac (or hardware issue possibly). Hit it hard and continuously, and it will occasionally serve a bad file, almost always with large files - but it seems to be able to take files hard no problem. I think I'll look for a newer kernel, but that's YDL and not Fedora ;) From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Wed Nov 17 22:48:13 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:48:13 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100731693.4085.23.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 13:45 +0100, Terje Bless wrote: > What happens to overall boot time if rhgb and dhclient is disabled, with and > without readahead? I already posted some results with different rhgb/readahead combinations. Before I try all other options, I'd much rather complete the work, put it online and let people try it out. Some of the issues seen in these charts (e.g. 'modprobe floppy') are specific to my laptop. > Also interesting would be a graph of a minimal boot ? disable all nonessential > services; portmap, rpc, gpm, cups, etc. ? into text console. It'd reduce the > ?noise? in the graph and might reveal something interesting about the > remaining processes. Ha, no horizontal bar for this one: http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-minimal.png That's with runlevel 3 and only the following services: xfs, iptables, messagebus, irqbalance, syslog, haldaemon, crond, atd, anacron, cpuspeed, xinetd. Exit criteria are mingetty running and system idle. > Oh, BTW, what is that apparent zombie of S04readahead_early? Just a timing > issue with the sampling? If you take a look at the log file that produced the image (http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootop.log.rhgbfix.gz): @@ 3704 2085 2079 4356 3372 S 0.0 0:00.00 initlog -q -c /etc/rc5.d/S04readahead_ea 2086 2085 0 0 Z 0.0 0:00.00 [S04readahead_ea] It seems related to: http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=64603 -- Ziga From fedoradev at sandersweb.net Wed Nov 17 23:09:24 2004 From: fedoradev at sandersweb.net (David Sanders) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:09:24 -0500 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <20041117221350.GA21804@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411171709.59788.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041117221350.GA21804@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200411171809.24843.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> On Wednesday 17 November 2004 5:13 pm, Alan Cox wrote: > On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 05:09:59PM -0500, David Sanders wrote: > > Do we need a 4g4g kernel as the default? Not many people are going to be > > helped anyway. Fedora is the only linux distribution shipping one as far > > as I know and it is not in the upstream kernels. Perhaps it could be an > > option? > > 4G/4G does seem to help a lot of workloads. The views are split even inside > Red Hat. When it comes to Linux/Linux virtualisation then Xen 2.0 really > makes it irrelevant as Xen uses its own kernel variant anyway Well for Windows/Linux virtualization on Virtual PC a solution is needed by a lot of people. Perhaps we could detect in anaconda that we are in a Virtual Machine and setup accordingly? Just check motherboard manufacturer, if its Microsoft then your in Virtual PC, etc. -- David Sanders fedoradev at sandersweb.net From giallu at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 23:16:06 2004 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 00:16:06 +0100 Subject: FC3 DNS resolver issue In-Reply-To: <419B7827.6010601@crc.dk> References: <419B7827.6010601@crc.dk> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:11:19 +0100, Mogens Kjaer wrote: > > Are you running NIS as well? > > Try changing the hosts line in /etc/nsswitch.conf > into: > > hosts: files dns No NIS running here, and I already checked that file. It (correctly) has exactly that line thanks anyway :) From pp at ee.oulu.fi Wed Nov 17 23:25:00 2004 From: pp at ee.oulu.fi (Pekka Pietikainen) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:25:00 +0200 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <20041117221350.GA21804@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <419AB135.6090303@redhat.com> <20041117143011.GA760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200411171709.59788.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041117221350.GA21804@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041117232500.GA12511@ee.oulu.fi> On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 05:13:50PM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 05:09:59PM -0500, David Sanders wrote: > > Do we need a 4g4g kernel as the default? Not many people are going to be > > helped anyway. Fedora is the only linux distribution shipping one as far as > > I know and it is not in the upstream kernels. Perhaps it could be an option? > > 4G/4G does seem to help a lot of workloads. The views are split even inside > Red Hat. When it comes to Linux/Linux virtualisation then Xen 2.0 really > makes it irrelevant as Xen uses its own kernel variant anyway Where workload seems to be something other than "light desktop use" or even "light server use". Is there any <=1GB of RAM case where it helps at all? Besides, anyone sane running a memory intensive app will get a x86_64 box where the 4:4 kludgery is not needed. Only good I've seen it do is uncovering driver bugs, which is a worthy goal I suppose. -- Pekka Pietikainen From notting at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 23:26:19 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:26:19 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <419BBEAB.3070702@terminus.co.uk> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100719951.1314.24.camel@bree.local.net> <20041117205915.GB18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <419BBEAB.3070702@terminus.co.uk> Message-ID: <20041117232618.GA20847@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Stuart Children (stuart at terminus.co.uk) said: > >Exactly... what needs to be done here is tagging of all the > >scripts/services > >that can be shut down cleanly, then some quick changes to /etc/rc should > >cut about half the time out of shutdown (based on some tests I ran ~10 > >months ago or so.) > > How about a "prepare-for-system-shutdown" [1] command to the rc scripts? > With the meaning of "save anything you need to 'cos the system's going > down shortly" rather than "i want you to exit all your processes right > now" (the 'stop' command). For most services this could just be a NOP. > Others could trivially call their 'stop' command, or do whatever subset > of that is necessary. > > [1] a more succient name should obviously be used. :) Actually, how > about 'save', and 'stop' could in general call that and then do its > killings? Breaks compatibility with third-party scripts. Bill From giallu at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 23:35:24 2004 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 00:35:24 +0100 Subject: FC3 DNS resolver issue In-Reply-To: <419BB4A5.50301@redhat.com> References: <419BB4A5.50301@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:29:25 -0800, Ulrich Drepper wrote: > > Try adding > > ndots: 0 > > to your /etc/resolv.conf. > Ok, I checked the man page for resolv.conf (as a side note: please tell me who I have to bribe for updating the yelp package with the patch for giving me back the man and info pages... http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140951) and I think you meant to use: options ndots:0 that actually worked... Now few questions: * is this a bug? * if so, do I have add a bugzilla entry for it? * will that manually added option be preserved when dhcp will update resolv.conf? Cheers Gianluca From drepper at redhat.com Wed Nov 17 23:50:25 2004 From: drepper at redhat.com (Ulrich Drepper) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:50:25 -0800 Subject: FC3 DNS resolver issue In-Reply-To: References: <419BB4A5.50301@redhat.com> Message-ID: <419BE3C1.4000308@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Gianluca Sforna wrote: > Now few questions: > * is this a bug? No. Earlier glibc version did an additional lookup just for the sake of broken installations like yours. I've disabled this by default since you cannot expect everybody to pay for your convenience. > * will that manually added option be preserved when dhcp will update > resolv.conf? It should. - -- ? Ulrich Drepper ? Red Hat, Inc. ? 444 Castro St ? Mountain View, CA ? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBm+PB2ijCOnn/RHQRApfnAJ9EMXlbewBa1pwsvKvpkhtYco8XZgCfVbCo oLu7VVHZ+YyEpmMxPl7ACH8= =qJBK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From giallu at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 00:12:33 2004 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:12:33 +0100 Subject: FC3 DNS resolver issue In-Reply-To: <419BE3C1.4000308@redhat.com> References: <419BB4A5.50301@redhat.com> <419BE3C1.4000308@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:50:25 -0800, Ulrich Drepper wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Gianluca Sforna wrote: > > > Now few questions: > > * is this a bug? > > No. Earlier glibc version did an additional lookup just for the sake of > broken installations like yours. I've disabled this by default since > you cannot expect everybody to pay for your convenience. Ok thanks a lot for the explanation (but anyway: how come someone was charged for letting me resolve simple internal names like "trex"?? ;) ). Now, what I know is I have a broken installation; what I do not know is how to fix it: Is it broke at the server side (DHCP and/or DNSmasq) or at the client one? Will be a solution to name all the machines with a proper (or dummy) domain name (i.e. putting HOSTNAME=trex.local in /etc/sysconfig/network)? Any pointers to relevant docs? Cheers Gianluca From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Thu Nov 18 01:33:53 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:33:53 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 21:28 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > another interesting test might be the following: > disable readahead (both services), store the attached file as /tmp/files > and put the following near the top of /etc/rc.sysinit: > /usr/sbin/readahead `/bin/cat /tmp/files` I had to move it a bit further down so it gets picked up by top (which in turn requires /proc): --- /etc/rc.sysinit.orig +++ /etc/rc.sysinit @@ -26,8 +26,13 @@ mount -n -t proc /proc /proc [ -d /proc/bus/usb ] && mount -n -t usbfs /proc/bus/usb /proc/bus/usb mount -n -t sysfs /sys /sys >/dev/null 2>&1 +# Log top output for boot analysis +/usr/local/sbin/bootop start + +/usr/sbin/readahead `/bin/cat /tmp/files` + . /etc/init.d/functions # Check SELinux status selinuxfs=`awk '/ selinuxfs / { print $2 }' /proc/mounts` The result: http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-diskless.png There's a 20 MB load of files in your readahead list and they are being read for 15 seconds. I guess a 26.60 MB/sec 'hdparm -t' suggests room for improvement? Note that this is on a 4200 RPM drive. -- Ziga From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Thu Nov 18 01:45:35 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:45:35 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100725103.3952.14.camel@kyrre> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <1100604817.3760.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100679863.13504.9.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> <20041117151416.GD760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041117171408.414a2331.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1100725103.3952.14.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <20041118024535.3b7fe052.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:58:24 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > There should be an automatic "forward" button in bugzilla, which the > developer could click, and have a "linked" bug-report automatically > created at upstream bugzilla. The reporter should then be able to use RH > bugzilla, but having it automagically forewarded to upstream bugzilla. And how does Red Hat bugzilla know how to create a bug report in an upstream bugzilla? Do you really expect that somebody implements a wrapper interface for the forms of each individual upstream bug tracking system and keeps it up-to-date? Further, how to add two-way communication channels between upstream developers and bug reporters? There's really no way to avoid that users create an account in upstream's bug tracker, so they can respond to questions. Not even mentioning all the projects who take bug reports by e-mail only. There is nothing wrong with reporting bugs first to the last link of the chain, the package creator/developer, the distributor or repository maintainer, respectively. Package owners might know whether a problem is restricted to the custom builds, e.g. due to any patches, feature configuration or dependencies. But if the packager thinks something like an RFE is better reported upstream, it boils down to a matter of laziness and whether the reporter is really interested enough in an application as to contact its developers. In the world of other operating systems, it's no different. -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.667 loadavg: 1.31 1.25 0.67 From lightingisfun at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 01:59:32 2004 From: lightingisfun at gmail.com (David Corrigan) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:59:32 -0800 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <7248933a041117175949ebdbe3@mail.gmail.com> Could you upload the java program that is generating the graphs? I'm curious to see how my system performs and I'm sure others are too. David On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:33:53 +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 21:28 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > another interesting test might be the following: > > disable readahead (both services), store the attached file as /tmp/files > > and put the following near the top of /etc/rc.sysinit: > > /usr/sbin/readahead `/bin/cat /tmp/files` > > I had to move it a bit further down so it gets picked up by top (which > in turn requires /proc): > > --- /etc/rc.sysinit.orig > +++ /etc/rc.sysinit > @@ -26,8 +26,13 @@ > mount -n -t proc /proc /proc > [ -d /proc/bus/usb ] && mount -n -t usbfs /proc/bus/usb /proc/bus/usb > mount -n -t sysfs /sys /sys >/dev/null 2>&1 > > +# Log top output for boot analysis > +/usr/local/sbin/bootop start > + > +/usr/sbin/readahead `/bin/cat /tmp/files` > + > . /etc/init.d/functions > > # Check SELinux status > selinuxfs=`awk '/ selinuxfs / { print $2 }' /proc/mounts` > > The result: > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-diskless.png > > There's a 20 MB load of files in your readahead list and they are being > read for 15 seconds. I guess a 26.60 MB/sec 'hdparm -t' suggests room > for improvement? Note that this is on a 4200 RPM drive. > > > > -- > Ziga > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From pbruna at linuxcenterla.com Thu Nov 18 02:00:00 2004 From: pbruna at linuxcenterla.com (Patricio Bruna V.) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:00:00 -0300 Subject: Stateless v/s LTSP Message-ID: <1100743200.3515.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> what its the diferent betwen this two? -- Patricio Bruna http://www.linuxcenterla.com Ingeniero de Proyectos Mariano S?nchez Fontecilla 310, piso 2 Red Hat Certified Engineer Las Condes, Santiago - CHILE Linux Center Latinoamerica Fono: +56 2 2745000, Fax : +56 22747075 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje est? firmada digitalmente URL: From mark at mitre.org Thu Nov 18 02:45:31 2004 From: mark at mitre.org (Mark Heslep) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:45:31 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <419C0CCB.5080205@mitre.org> Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Arjan van de Ven writes: > >> > > Add 30 seconds if you're booting off aic79xx.o > > Why does loading that gawd-awful microcode take so long? > > I don't notice ANY delay when booting XP on the same box. > > It shouldn't take more than one or two seconds to initialize the SCSI > card. > > Same with mptscsi / mptbase here. At least 30 (x2 - once in the bios post and again when the kernel driver loads) -Mark From mrsam at courier-mta.com Thu Nov 18 03:04:23 2004 From: mrsam at courier-mta.com (Sam Varshavchik) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:04:23 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419C0CCB.5080205@mitre.org> Message-ID: Mark Heslep writes: > Sam Varshavchik wrote: > >> Arjan van de Ven writes: >> >>> >> >> Add 30 seconds if you're booting off aic79xx.o >> >> Why does loading that gawd-awful microcode take so long? >> >> I don't notice ANY delay when booting XP on the same box. >> >> It shouldn't take more than one or two seconds to initialize the SCSI >> card. >> >> > Same with mptscsi / mptbase here. At least 30 (x2 - once in the bios > post and again when the kernel driver loads) Well, BIOS POST you can't do anything about. But XP initializes an Adaptec SCSI controller in, at most, 1-2 seconds. No way did Microsoft write the SCSI driver code themselves. It had to have come from Adaptec, at some point down the line. So, if Adaptec is, supposedly, gung-ho about Linux these days, why can't they produce a version of aic7xxx.ko that doesn't give you plenty of time to brew a pot of coffee, before it's done whatever the hell it's doing? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fedoradev at sandersweb.net Thu Nov 18 03:25:32 2004 From: fedoradev at sandersweb.net (David Sanders) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:25:32 -0500 Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: <1100687916.7467.185.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100679230.7467.152.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100687916.7467.185.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200411172225.32756.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> On Wednesday 17 November 2004 5:38 am, Colin Charles wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 16:13 +0800, Colin Charles wrote: > > > Without this, all these points are likely to be ignored because they're > > > scattered through a thousand mailing list posts across multiple > > > lists... > > > > They're just outta fedora-devel-list, there's probably more at fedora- > > test-list (which I haven't caught up to yet), and most certainly, this > > should just enter the wiki at > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ > > And as some luck would have it, not a pretty-fied version, just a > copy/paste, the wiki stuff is at: > > http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/wiki/index.cgi/Wishlist > > And as Seth said, poke either him or me to give you sane people access > to edit the wishlist > -- > Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my > http://www.bytebot.net/ > "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, > then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi Anaconda detects when it is in a virtual machine and installs approriate config files and kernel. -- David Sanders fedoradev at sandersweb.net From nutello at sweetness.com Thu Nov 18 03:52:15 2004 From: nutello at sweetness.com (Rudi Chiarito) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 04:52:15 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041118035215.GA29386@server4.8080.it> On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 09:28:49PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > another interesting test might be the following: > disable readahead (both services), store the attached file as /tmp/files > and put the following near the top of /etc/rc.sysinit: > /usr/sbin/readahead `/bin/cat /tmp/files` Hey! Don't waste cycles like that! If you are trying to squeeze things as much as possible, and since rc.sysinit already requires bash anyway, you want this instead: /usr/sbin/readahead $(< /tmp/files) (assuming that the file list will always exist and be readable) Now let me go back to rewriting my init scripts into native code... -- Rudi From caillon at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 04:18:29 2004 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:18:29 -0500 Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: <1100648792.7343.50.camel@hostmaster.org> References: <1100648792.7343.50.camel@hostmaster.org> Message-ID: <419C2295.7090001@redhat.com> Thomas Zehetbauer wrote: > 2.) there should be a voting system like the one on mozilla.org The problems with voting are many and have been discussed elsewhere (there are bugs existing about it upstream). As it stands, it is a complete joke even to the majority of the upstream Mozilla community. The only real value that voting has IMO is giving a way for people to say "me too" without adding a comment in the bug. From dfarning at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 18 04:40:11 2004 From: dfarning at sbcglobal.net (David Farning) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:40:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: A single FC4 wish In-Reply-To: <200411172225.32756.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> Message-ID: <20041118044011.81227.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> > http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/wiki/index.cgi/Wishlist > > > > And as Seth said, poke either him or me to give > you sane people access > > to edit the wishlist > > -- > > Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my > > http://www.bytebot.net/ > > "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, > then they fight you, > > then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi > > Anaconda detects when it is in a virtual machine and > installs approriate > config files and kernel. > > -- > David Sanders > fedoradev at sandersweb.net > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > Is the sanity part a dealbreaker? From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Thu Nov 18 06:51:05 2004 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:51:05 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100731693.4085.23.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100731693.4085.23.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <419C4659.4090103@hhs.nl> Why does starting xfs do a find ? Me thinks we can save a few cycels there. Regards, Hans Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 13:45 +0100, Terje Bless wrote: > >>What happens to overall boot time if rhgb and dhclient is disabled, with and >>without readahead? > > > I already posted some results with different rhgb/readahead > combinations. Before I try all other options, I'd much rather complete > the work, put it online and let people try it out. Some of the issues > seen in these charts (e.g. 'modprobe floppy') are specific to my laptop. > > >>Also interesting would be a graph of a minimal boot ? disable all nonessential >>services; portmap, rpc, gpm, cups, etc. ? into text console. It'd reduce the >>?noise? in the graph and might reveal something interesting about the >>remaining processes. > > > Ha, no horizontal bar for this one: > http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-minimal.png > > That's with runlevel 3 and only the following services: > xfs, iptables, messagebus, irqbalance, syslog, haldaemon, crond, atd, > anacron, cpuspeed, xinetd. > > Exit criteria are mingetty running and system idle. > > >>Oh, BTW, what is that apparent zombie of S04readahead_early? Just a timing >>issue with the sampling? > > > If you take a look at the log file that produced the image > (http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootop.log.rhgbfix.gz): > > @@ 3704 > 2085 2079 4356 3372 S 0.0 0:00.00 initlog -q -c /etc/rc5.d/S04readahead_ea > 2086 2085 0 0 Z 0.0 0:00.00 [S04readahead_ea] > > It seems related to: > http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=64603 > From arjanv at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 07:36:46 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:36:46 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 02:33:53AM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 21:28 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > another interesting test might be the following: > > disable readahead (both services), store the attached file as /tmp/files > > and put the following near the top of /etc/rc.sysinit: > > /usr/sbin/readahead `/bin/cat /tmp/files` > > There's a 20 MB load of files in your readahead list and they are being > read for 15 seconds. I guess a 26.60 MB/sec 'hdparm -t' suggests room > for improvement? Note that this is on a 4200 RPM drive. hmm yeah there ought to be room; I'll need to think about how to use that though. One question: was the drive (light) mostly quiet when readahead was finished ? From markmc at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 07:38:25 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:38:25 +0000 Subject: stateless tutorial [was Re: Stateless Works! but...] In-Reply-To: <419B62BC.7080205@science.edu> References: <419938CE.4020301@science.edu> <1100689794.5919.34.camel@blaa> <419B62BC.7080205@science.edu> Message-ID: <1100763505.3695.6.camel@blaa> Hi, On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 08:39 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: > > Ah, yes that should be in the tutorial. Patches for the tutorial are > >very, very welcome :-) > > > I'd love to, but... Hmm, ever thought of wiki-fying the tutorial? I'm > still pretty new, I haven't learned the fine art of patch generating yet. Dave has added instructions on how to access the tutorial in CVS and send patches/comments: http://people.redhat.com/dmalcolm/stateless/stateless-linux-HOWTO-en/#errata-tip Plese file away :-) Thanks, Mark. From markmc at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 07:44:04 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:44:04 +0000 Subject: Stateless Linux experience... In-Reply-To: <200411171405.iAHE5nGp007976@mx3.redhat.com> References: <200411171405.iAHE5nGp007976@mx3.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100763844.3695.11.camel@blaa> Hi, On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 09:05 -0500, Mike Herrick wrote: > > > 6) Because of the RAM problem above, I'm not sure that subsequent > > > invocations of "stateless-snapshooter -n -p DemoSystem" actually > > > worked as designed. When I execute "stateless-snapshooter -l", I get: > > > > > > Protosystems: > > > DemoSystem > > > > > > But it doesn't say anything about snapshots. This makes me nervous. > > > What should the output look like? > > > > Yeah, looks like there aren't any snapshots listed in LDAP. > > > > Are there snapshots in /srv/stateless/snapshots? > > > > Maybe use GQ (GUI LDAP client) to poke around in LDAP to see if any > > record of the snapshots are being made? > > Part of the problem may be that I hadn't run 'stateless-servers -a'. Do I > have to run this before or after taking a snapshot? What values do I give > for nfs_path and rsync_path? Yeah, I think you need to run it before taking the snapshot. Something like this: $> stateless-servers -a -n /srv/stateless/snapshots myserver.foo.net (assuming you want the image served to stateless clients rather than caching clients. Use -r for caching clients) Cheers, Mark. From markmc at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 07:50:58 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:50:58 +0000 Subject: Stateless Works! but... In-Reply-To: <419B62BC.7080205@science.edu> References: <419938CE.4020301@science.edu> <1100689794.5919.34.camel@blaa> <419B62BC.7080205@science.edu> Message-ID: <1100764258.3695.15.camel@blaa> Hi, On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 08:39 -0600, Carlos Knowlton wrote: > -when rc.readonlyroot runs, I get a series of "find: cannot access > [file]: permission denied" Which files are in the error messages? What do you have in /etc/exports for sharing the snapshot image? (This is the part of the process where mount --bind some files into tmpfs on /var/writable) Cheers, Mark. From markmc at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 07:57:35 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:57:35 +0000 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1100713846.2463.34.camel@shiva> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> <1100713846.2463.34.camel@shiva> Message-ID: <1100764655.3695.19.camel@blaa> Hi, On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 12:50 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > Hi, > > i put the rpms into the RPMS dir and ran > > /usr/lib/anaconda-runtime/genhdlist --hdlist /mnt/FC3/Fedora/base/hdlist > --productpath Fedora /mnt/FC3/ > > this seems to complete successfully > > and i can see that the packages have been added to the list If you check out anaconda from the same CVS repository as stateless and use dumphdrlist.py to check. From my notes: - You can check if your RPMs were included then: [root at blaa stateless-bootstrap]# python /redhat/cvs/devel/anaconda/scripts/dumphdrlist.py Fedora/base/hdlist | grep stateless 0:stateless-client-0.19-1.noarch [] [] 0:stateless-common-0.19-1.noarch [] [] Also, you only need the client and common RPMS. Cheers, Mark. From markmc at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 08:09:19 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:09:19 +0000 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1100718199.2463.57.camel@shiva> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> <1100718199.2463.57.camel@shiva> Message-ID: <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> Hi, On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 14:03 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > and now when i run the command, a gui interface pops up on my > workstation for a brief second and then i get this error > > [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# python bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b > /reserve-boot > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "bootstrap.py", line 324, in ? > run ('aware-of-vacuity.boston.redhat.com', > 'dc=sml-demo,dc=devel,dc=redhat,dc=com', True) > File "bootstrap.py", line 321, in run > gui.run() > File "bootstrap.py", line 118, in run > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, > self.debug) > TypeError: __init__() takes exactly 3 arguments (4 given) I think bootstrap.py is broken: # FIXME: supposed to pass a StatelessConfig here r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, self.debug) looks like this should work, though: self.cfg = StatelessConfig () r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.cfg, self.debug) However, the more recent work and testing was done on the command-line version of the bootstrap tool. See the kickstart file I sent to you earlier where I was doing: cd /usr/share/stateless ./stateless-boostrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot Cheers, Mark. From markmc at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 08:11:46 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:11:46 +0000 Subject: Stateless v/s LTSP In-Reply-To: <1100743200.3515.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1100743200.3515.0.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <1100765506.6199.5.camel@blaa> Hi, On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 23:00 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > what its the diferent betwen this two? The original announcement and documentation should help: http://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-September/msg00575.html Cheers, Mark. From arjanv at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 08:49:30 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:49:30 +0100 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <20041117232500.GA12511@ee.oulu.fi> References: <419AB135.6090303@redhat.com> <20041117143011.GA760@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200411171709.59788.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041117221350.GA21804@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041117232500.GA12511@ee.oulu.fi> Message-ID: <1100767770.2640.15.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 01:25 +0200, Pekka Pietikainen wrote: > Where workload seems to be something other than "light desktop use" > or even "light server use". Is there any <=1GB of RAM case > where it helps at all? Besides, anyone sane running a memory > intensive app will get a x86_64 box where the 4:4 kludgery is not needed. there's the "lots of threads" case (for example, java). Thread stacks are typically 8Mb in virtual space but *sparse*, so even with 1Gb ram you easily get to fill 4Gb with such stacks. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Thu Nov 18 11:03:43 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:03:43 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <7248933a041117175949ebdbe3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <7248933a041117175949ebdbe3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100775823.4260.40.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 17:59 -0800, David Corrigan wrote: > Could you upload the java program that is generating the graphs? I'm > curious to see how my system performs and I'm sure others are too. That is certainly my intention but it needs another weekend of coding. I'll keep you posted. -- Ziga From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Thu Nov 18 11:06:44 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:06:44 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 08:36 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > There's a 20 MB load of files in your readahead list and they are being > > read for 15 seconds. I guess a 26.60 MB/sec 'hdparm -t' suggests room > > for improvement? Note that this is on a 4200 RPM drive. > > hmm yeah there ought to be room; I'll need to think about how to use that > though. Yeah I guess the fact that disk caches are loaded on a per-file basis doesn't help either. Because in theory: stat-ing your list takes about 3 sec and readahead on a tarball is instantaneous (both of course without boot-time readahead). (A kick in the dark probably, but I'm thinking a contiguous readahead cache file kept updated with the changed files only.) > One question: was the drive (light) mostly quiet when readahead was finished ? Well there are occasional flashes, even if I turn off synchronous logging (which wasn't the case when I posted the chart). I guess I'd have to tailor the list first. BTW, some time ago (http://kerneltrap.org/node/view/2157) you mentioned 11,000 files being read during boot. This list only contains 923. Are all the rest gnome-related? -- Ziga From arjanv at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 11:08:00 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:08:00 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041118110800.GC31873@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 12:06:44PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > logging (which wasn't the case when I posted the chart). I guess I'd > have to tailor the list first. > > BTW, some time ago (http://kerneltrap.org/node/view/2157) you mentioned > 11,000 files being read during boot. This list only contains 923. Are > all the rest gnome-related? the 11.000 was total file opens; 923 are the unique, non-proc non-sysfs ones. The total now is 35.000 (eg up more than 3 times) From dwmw2 at infradead.org Thu Nov 18 11:12:29 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:12:29 +0000 Subject: anaconda ftp install In-Reply-To: <1100731552l.2367l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100703645l.3954l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1100719875.1314.22.camel@bree.local.net> <1100731552l.2367l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1100776349.8191.7141.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 22:45 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > I did some testing - I think my problem was is a bug in the nic driver > for the imac (or hardware issue possibly). Hit it hard and > continuously, and it will occasionally serve a bad file, almost always > with large files - but it seems to be able to take files hard no > problem. I think I'll look for a newer kernel, but that's YDL and not > Fedora ;) You could try Fedora :) -- dwmw2 From buildsys at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 12:46:17 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:46:17 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041118 changes Message-ID: <200411181246.iAICkHp15660@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: NetworkManager-0.3.2-3.cvs20041117 ---------------------------------- * Wed Nov 17 2004 - 0.3.2-3.cvs20041117 - Update to CVS - Fixes to link detection - Better detection of non-ESSID-broadcasting access points - Don't dialog-spam the user if a connection fails * Thu Nov 11 2004 - 0.3.2-2.cvs20041115 - Update to CVS - Much better link detection, works with Open System authentication - Blacklist wireless cards rather than whitelisting them * Fri Oct 29 2004 - 0.3.2-2.cvs20041029 - #rh134893# NetworkManagerInfo and the panel-icon life-cycle - #rh134895# Status icon should hide when in Wired-only mode - #rh134896# Icon code needs rewrite - #rh134897# "Other Networks..." dialog needs implementing - #rh135055# Menu highlights incorrectly in NM - #rh135648# segfault with cipsec0 - #rh135722# NetworkManager will not allow zaurus to sync via usb0 - #rh135999# NetworkManager-0.3.1 will not connect to 128 wep - #rh136866# applet needs tooltips - #rh137047# lots of applets, yay! - #rh137341# Network Manager dies after disconnecting from wired network second time - Better checking for wireless devices - Fix some memleaks - Fix issues with dhclient declining an offered address - Fix an activation thread deadlock - More accurately detect "Other wireless networks" that are encrypted - Don't bring devices down as much, won't hotplug-spam as much anymore about firmware - Add a "network not found" dialog when the user chooses a network that could not be connected to dhcp-7:3.0.1-14 --------------- * Wed Nov 17 2004 Jason Vas Dias 7:3.0.1-14 - NTP: fix bug 139715: merge in new ntp servers only rather than replace - all the ntp configuration files; restart ntpd if configuration changed. foomatic-3.0.2-6 ---------------- * Wed Nov 17 2004 Tim Waugh 3.0.2-6 - Add autodetect information for HP LaserJet 8150 (bug #139683). - Add autodetect information for Epson Stylus Color 777 (bug #139629). libxml-1:1.8.17-12 ------------------ * Wed Nov 17 2004 Daniel Veillard 1:1.8.17-12 - Added patch for CAN-2004-0110 and CAN-2004-0989 fixing security bug 139092 * Tue Jun 15 2004 Elliot Lee - rebuilt * Tue Mar 02 2004 Elliot Lee - rebuilt ltrace-0.3.36-1 --------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Jakub Jelinek 0.3.36-1 - update to 0.3.36 mailx-8.1.1-40 -------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Ivana Varekova - fix problem with patch bug44798 rhpl-0.151-1 ------------ * Wed Nov 17 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0.151-1 - add patch from Jim Parsons to add executil.execWithCaptureErrorStatus as needed by system-config-lvm rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041118 --------------------------- selinux-policy-strict-1.19.1-14 ------------------------------- * Wed Nov 17 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-1-14 Add back in zebra xemacs-21.4.15-10 ----------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Jens Petersen - 21.4.15-10 - turn on emacs again in the desktop menu (132567) xorg-x11-6.8.1-12.FC3.1 ----------------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Kristian H??gsberg 6.8.1-12.FC3.1 - Bump package version. * Mon Nov 15 2004 Kristian H??gsberg - Added xorg-x11-6.7.0-xpm-security-fixes-CAN-2004-0914.patch to fix a number of Xpm issues found by Thomas Biege (#136169) xscreensaver-1:4.18-12 ---------------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Ray Strode References: <200411171709.59788.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041117221350.GA21804@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200411171809.24843.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> Message-ID: <20041118124953.GA17205@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 06:09:24PM -0500, David Sanders wrote: > Well for Windows/Linux virtualization on Virtual PC a solution is needed by a > lot of people. Perhaps we could detect in anaconda that we are in a Virtual > Machine and setup accordingly? Just check motherboard manufacturer, if its > Microsoft then your in Virtual PC, etc. The kernel runs anaconda, by the time anaconda runs its too late. From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Thu Nov 18 13:38:13 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:38:13 -0600 Subject: repository error in up2date Message-ID: <1100785093.4739.4.camel@c515816-a> When using up2date it fetches the updates correctly but fails when trying to get the source for the rpm, is this a local problem for my machine or is it a error at the repository. If it is local where are these repositories stored. It is not sources in the sysconfig directory. It always fails on fetching the source only. -- Otto Haliburton From mherrick at corente.com Thu Nov 18 14:22:58 2004 From: mherrick at corente.com (Mike Herrick) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:22:58 -0500 Subject: Stateless Linux experience... In-Reply-To: <1100763844.3695.11.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <200411181423.iAIENT2V029662@mx3.redhat.com> > > Yeah, I think you need to run it before taking the snapshot. > Something > like this: > > $> stateless-servers -a -n /srv/stateless/snapshots myserver.foo.net > > (assuming you want the image served to stateless clients rather than > caching clients. Use -r for caching clients) A couple of problems: 1) I can't login when the diskless client boots. I've tried the root account as well as the ldap 'demo-user' user id. I've changed /etc/sysconfig in the snapshot to dump the logs to the console (since I can't login and see them). When I use 'root', I get: .....PAM-securetty[2785]: Error opening /etc/securetty When I use 'demo-user', I can see ldap traffic to the server using tcpdump, but I get: ...login(pam_unix)[2786]: check pass; user unknown ...login(pam_unix)[2786]: authentication failure; logname=LOGIN uid=0 euid=0 tty=tty1 ruser= rhost= ...login[2787]: FAILED LOGIN 1 FROM (null) FOR demo-user, Authentication failure I've never used LDAP before, but using phpldapadmin (as previously suggested), I've changed the demo-user password, and modified the group (as mentioned in another post) - to no avail. To get around this, I modified /etc/inittab in the snapshot directory to start up in single user mode rather than run level 3, just so I can get on the box and play with it. I, too, get a bunch of errors at startup - the first of which are generated by /etc/rc.readonly: ... Setting hostname test [ OK ] find: /var/gdm: Permission denied find: /var/lock/lvm: Permission denied find: /var/log/ppp: Permission denied find: /var/run/mdadm: Permission denied find: /var/run/mdmpd: Permission denied find: /var/run/sudo: Permission denied find: /var/run/usb: Permission denied Setting up Logical Volume Management [ OK ] It appears that /var/writable is mounted (tmpfs) and that /var/writable/[etc,tmp,var] all exist. The snapshot is of a vanilla 'Workstation' FC3 install. Thanks, Mike. From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Thu Nov 18 14:25:17 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:25:17 -0600 Subject: repository error in up2date In-Reply-To: <1100785093.4739.4.camel@c515816-a> References: <1100785093.4739.4.camel@c515816-a> Message-ID: <1100787918.4739.15.camel@c515816-a> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 07:38 -0600, Otto Haliburton wrote: > When using up2date it fetches the updates correctly but fails when > trying to get the source for the rpm, is this a local problem for my > machine or is it a error at the repository. If it is local where are > these repositories stored. It is not sources in the sysconfig > directory. It always fails on fetching the source only. > -- further I've found that the url is malformed which is causing the file not found error the url for example is as follows http://ftp.esat.net/pub/linux/fedora/updates/3/i386/SRPMS/package.src.rpm and it should be http://ftp.esat.net/pub/linux/fedora/updates/3/SRPMS/package.src.rpm the extra arch is being added to the string for the repository, is the repository in error or is this improperly formed. The question is where do I go to examine this formation of the string. -- Otto Haliburton From karl.vogel at telenet.be Thu Nov 18 14:26:42 2004 From: karl.vogel at telenet.be (Karl Vogel) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:26:42 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> (Ziga Mahkovec's message of "Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:33:53 +0100") References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: Ziga Mahkovec writes: > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 21:28 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: >> another interesting test might be the following: >> disable readahead (both services), store the attached file as /tmp/files >> and put the following near the top of /etc/rc.sysinit: >> /usr/sbin/readahead `/bin/cat /tmp/files` The following output might be nice to see: # xargs References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100719951.1314.24.camel@bree.local.net> <20041117205915.GB18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <419BBEAB.3070702@terminus.co.uk> <20041117232618.GA20847@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <419CB119.5040109@terminus.co.uk> Hiya Bill Nottingham wrote: > Stuart Children (stuart at terminus.co.uk) said: > >>>Exactly... what needs to be done here is tagging of all the >>>scripts/services >>>that can be shut down cleanly, then some quick changes to /etc/rc should >>>cut about half the time out of shutdown (based on some tests I ran ~10 >>>months ago or so.) >> >>How about a "prepare-for-system-shutdown" [1] command to the rc scripts? >>With the meaning of "save anything you need to 'cos the system's going >>down shortly" rather than "i want you to exit all your processes right >>now" (the 'stop' command). For most services this could just be a NOP. >>Others could trivially call their 'stop' command, or do whatever subset >>of that is necessary. >> >>[1] a more succient name should obviously be used. :) Actually, how >>about 'save', and 'stop' could in general call that and then do its >>killings? > > > Breaks compatibility with third-party scripts. How do you mean... you're only adding new functionality. Is the problem that third-party scripts wouldn't have a 'save' command? If so then you check the exit value of the script, and if it's 1 then retry with 'stop'. Again, you start to lose some of the time savings then, but this should not be the common case, and would improve as people updated their scripts. Obviously if this were implemented it would make sense to get upstream init scripts to adopt the new command. I'm sure other distributions would appreciate it too. Anyway - whether this is used or another method - I think it's important that the application/package can say "I do [not] need do to anything before system-shutdown", rather than having a list somewhere of what things we think are safe to skip shutdown on that is 1) potentially obscured and 2) requires being kept up to date. Having services called "httpd" doesn't help avoid problems here either - perhaps apache can be safely left running, but my database-based webserver needs to write stuff to disk... but that's another rant. :) Cheers -- Stuart Children From fedoradev at sandersweb.net Thu Nov 18 15:17:43 2004 From: fedoradev at sandersweb.net (David Sanders) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:17:43 -0500 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <20041118124953.GA17205@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411171809.24843.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041118124953.GA17205@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200411181017.43880.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> On Thursday 18 November 2004 7:49 am, Alan Cox wrote: > On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 06:09:24PM -0500, David Sanders wrote: > > Well for Windows/Linux virtualization on Virtual PC a solution is needed > > by a lot of people. Perhaps we could detect in anaconda that we are in a > > Virtual Machine and setup accordingly? Just check motherboard > > manufacturer, if its Microsoft then your in Virtual PC, etc. > > The kernel runs anaconda, by the time anaconda runs its too late. The kernel that boots up anaconda is apparently OK. The kernel anaconda installs is not. -- David Sanders fedoradev at sandersweb.net From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Thu Nov 18 14:53:22 2004 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:53:22 -0500 Subject: bugzilla.fedora.us down Message-ID: <1100789603.31611.29.camel@Madison.badger.com> Look like fedora.us bugzilla is down again. Anyone care to give us an update on Fedora Extras (Official) status? It seems we get a status report near the start of every FC cycle saying it'll be here soon. The last one, IIRC, said the hardware would be installed shortly. -Toshio -- Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From alan at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 15:25:48 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:25:48 -0500 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <200411181017.43880.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> References: <200411171809.24843.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041118124953.GA17205@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200411181017.43880.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> Message-ID: <20041118152548.GA19388@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 10:17:43AM -0500, David Sanders wrote: > > The kernel runs anaconda, by the time anaconda runs its too late. > > The kernel that boots up anaconda is apparently OK. The kernel anaconda > installs is not. They are the same kernel From adrian at lisas.de Thu Nov 18 15:26:03 2004 From: adrian at lisas.de (Adrian Reber) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:26:03 +0100 Subject: Finding the "best" mirror Message-ID: <20041118152603.GA25269@lisas.de> The new feature in yum to use a mirrorlist instead of everbody donwloading from download.fedora.redhat.com is great. Unfortunately yum sometimes seems to download from the mirror furthest away and the downloads are really slow. But as I was to lazy to edit all the files in /etc/yum.repos.d/ to use the closest mirror I have written a small script which tries to determine the best mirror, removes the mirrorlist directive from the repo file and appends a baseurl line with the best mirror. If anyone is interested the script can be found at: http://lisas.de/~adrian/rpm/netselect-0.3-0.fdr.2.i386.rpm http://lisas.de/~adrian/rpm/netselect-0.3-0.fdr.2.src.rpm http://lisas.de/~adrian/rpm/netselect-yum-0.3-0.fdr.2.i386.rpm All this is more or less just copied (inspired) by debian's netselect-apt. Adrian From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Nov 18 15:33:08 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:33:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <20041118152548.GA19388@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411171809.24843.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041118124953.GA17205@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200411181017.43880.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041118152548.GA19388@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 10:17:43AM -0500, David Sanders wrote: >>> The kernel runs anaconda, by the time anaconda runs its too late. >> >> The kernel that boots up anaconda is apparently OK. The kernel anaconda >> installs is not. > > They are the same kernel How then do explain than the installer/anaconda kernel works, but after the initial install and a reboot, it barfs all over itself? -- Rex From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Thu Nov 18 15:43:49 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:43:49 +0100 Subject: Finding the "best" mirror In-Reply-To: <20041118152603.GA25269@lisas.de> References: <20041118152603.GA25269@lisas.de> Message-ID: <20041118164349.432b2c43.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Adrian Reber wrote : > The new feature in yum to use a mirrorlist instead of everbody > donwloading from download.fedora.redhat.com is great. Unfortunately yum > sometimes seems to download from the mirror furthest away and the > downloads are really slow. > > But as I was to lazy to edit all the files in /etc/yum.repos.d/ to use > the closest mirror I have written a small script which tries to > determine the best mirror, removes the mirrorlist directive from the > repo file and appends a baseurl line with the best mirror. > If anyone is interested the script can be found at: > > http://lisas.de/~adrian/rpm/netselect-0.3-0.fdr.2.i386.rpm > http://lisas.de/~adrian/rpm/netselect-0.3-0.fdr.2.src.rpm > http://lisas.de/~adrian/rpm/netselect-yum-0.3-0.fdr.2.i386.rpm > > All this is more or less just copied (inspired) by debian's > netselect-apt. Haven't looked at this yet, but how about selecting more than one mirror (e.g. the 5 best), creating a local yum mirror file, and pointing yum's configuration to that file:///path/to/that/mirrorlist? I really like the fact that yum tries another server when one doesn't seem to respond, which wouldn't be the case anymore with a single baseurl configured. Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.667.radeonfb Load : 0.27 0.31 0.62 From steve at silug.org Thu Nov 18 15:44:41 2004 From: steve at silug.org (Steven Pritchard) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:44:41 -0600 Subject: bugzilla.fedora.us down In-Reply-To: <1100789603.31611.29.camel@Madison.badger.com> References: <1100789603.31611.29.camel@Madison.badger.com> Message-ID: <20041118154441.GA2346@osiris.silug.org> On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 09:53:22AM -0500, Toshio wrote: > Anyone care to give us an update on Fedora Extras (Official) status? It > seems we get a status report near the start of every FC cycle saying > it'll be here soon. The last one, IIRC, said the hardware would be > installed shortly. Just an update on the FC3 rebuild status would be extremely helpful... Steve -- Steven Pritchard - K&S Pritchard Enterprises, Inc. Email: steve at kspei.com http://www.kspei.com/ Phone: (618)398-3000 Mobile: (618)567-7320 From katzj at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 15:46:05 2004 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:46:05 -0500 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <20041118152548.GA19388@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411171809.24843.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041118124953.GA17205@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200411181017.43880.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041118152548.GA19388@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100792765.1314.29.camel@bree.local.net> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 10:25 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 10:17:43AM -0500, David Sanders wrote: > > > The kernel runs anaconda, by the time anaconda runs its too late. > > > > The kernel that boots up anaconda is apparently OK. The kernel anaconda > > installs is not. > > They are the same kernel The installer uses the i586 kernel, not the i686 kernel. So not exactly Jeremy From alan at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 15:47:52 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:47:52 -0500 Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: References: <200411171809.24843.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041118124953.GA17205@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200411181017.43880.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041118152548.GA19388@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041118154752.GA30752@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 09:33:08AM -0600, Rex Dieter wrote: > >They are the same kernel > > How then do explain than the installer/anaconda kernel works, but after > the initial install and a reboot, it barfs all over itself? You'd have to ask Microsoft about that. They are however the same kernel. My first guess would be that stuff is being done in the normal boot after the kernel loads that is different to the boot kernel - perhaps some extra device loads or something runs that triggers the problems From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Nov 18 16:00:53 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:00:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: <1100792765.1314.29.camel@bree.local.net> References: <200411171809.24843.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041118124953.GA17205@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200411181017.43880.fedoradev@sandersweb.net> <20041118152548.GA19388@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100792765.1314.29.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 10:25 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: >> On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 10:17:43AM -0500, David Sanders wrote: >>>> The kernel runs anaconda, by the time anaconda runs its too late. >>> >>> The kernel that boots up anaconda is apparently OK. The kernel anaconda >>> installs is not. >> >> They are the same kernel > > The installer uses the i586 kernel, not the i686 kernel. So not exactly Cool, thanks... I'll try shoe-horning in a i586 kernel into VirtualPC to see if that works. If so, that's certainly much easier than having to build a custom non-4g4g kernel. -- Rex From karl.vogel at telenet.be Thu Nov 18 16:04:19 2004 From: karl.vogel at telenet.be (Karl Vogel) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:04:19 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> (Bill Nottingham's message of "Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:52:56 -0500") References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: FWIW.. my bootlog (no flashy graphs though): http://users.telenet.be/kvogel/boot.html Created by following ugly hackish scripting: --- rc.sysinit.orig 2004-11-18 16:49:52.624083048 +0100 +++ /etc/rc.sysinit 2004-11-18 03:24:43.000000000 +0100 @@ -29,6 +29,11 @@ . /etc/init.d/functions +cmdline=$(cat /proc/cmdline) +if strstr "$cmdline" trace; then + nohup /dev/null 2>&1 /bin/bash /etc/rc.tracer & +fi + # Check SELinux status selinuxfs=`awk '/ selinuxfs / { print $2 }' /proc/mounts` SELINUX= ----------- /etc/rc.tracer #!/bin/bash --login mount -t tmpfs none /mnt/f ( /sbin/hwclock --hctosys --localtime while true do echo ============================== $(date) ps -eHwwo ppid,pid,fname:20,stat,wchan:16,ni,cp,start,cputime,maj_flt,min_flt,rss,sz,vsz,cmd vmstat -d |sed -e '/hda/p' -e '3,$d' sleep 0.5 done ) >/mnt/f/boot.stats 2>&1 ------------ And I put the following in /etc/rc.local : -------------- . /etc/init.d/functions cmdline=$(cat /proc/cmdline) if strstr "$cmdline" trace; then echo Stopping tracer pkill rc.tracer egrep -v 'ps -eHwwo|bash --login' /mnt/f/boot.stats >/var/log/boot.stats date >>/var/log/boot.stats echo -n Unmounting tmpfs: umount /mnt/f if [ $? -eq 0 ]; then success else failure sleep 8 fi fi --------------- Some caveats: - at the end of rc.sysinit (just after turning the swap on), init waits for a key. Pressing CTRL+C makes it continue. (I thought the nohup would help, but it doesn't) - my /usr and /var are in the same partition as my root, so the script needs some work when using separate partitions. - the tmpfs is mounted on /mnt/f - umount fails, haven't looked why yet Usage: - boot with 'trace' on the kernel commandline. After bootup there will be a /var/log/boot.stats file. Use the following perl script to generate the html output: --- boot2html --- #!/usr/bin/perl open(IN, "boot.html"); print OUT "
";
while() {
        s//>/g;
        @arg= split;
        if (/=======/) {
                print OUT "
$_
";
        } elsif ( $arg[3] =~ /R/) {
                print OUT "$_";
        } elsif ( $arg[3] =~ /D/) {
                print OUT "$_";
        } else {
                print OUT $_;
        }
}

print OUT "
"; close(OUT); close(IN); -------------- Feel free to add some GD.pm lovin' to the script :-) From mpeters at mac.com Thu Nov 18 16:20:55 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:20:55 +0000 Subject: bugzilla.fedora.us down In-Reply-To: <20041118154441.GA2346@osiris.silug.org> (from steve@silug.org on Thu Nov 18 07:44:41 2004) References: <1100789603.31611.29.camel@Madison.badger.com> <20041118154441.GA2346@osiris.silug.org> Message-ID: <1100794855l.4339l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/18/2004 07:44:41 AM, Steven Pritchard wrote: > On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 09:53:22AM -0500, Toshio wrote: > > Anyone care to give us an update on Fedora Extras (Official) > status? > It > > seems we get a status report near the start of every FC cycle > saying > > it'll be here soon. The last one, IIRC, said the hardware would be > > installed shortly. > > Just an update on the FC3 rebuild status would be extremely > helpful... > While I too eagerly await their packages, I seem to recall that there was some flooding at their facility not too long ago, and that *may* be part of the problem (I don't know). In the mean time, it seems that most fc2 src.rpm packages do compile in fc3 with just a --rebuild, and when they don't - ubuntu or linuxfromscratch or one of those often have patches that resolve the issue (gcc 34 mostly) From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Thu Nov 18 16:27:36 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:27:36 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <1100795256.4260.105.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 15:26 +0100, Karl Vogel wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 21:28 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > >> another interesting test might be the following: > >> disable readahead (both services), store the attached file as /tmp/files > >> and put the following near the top of /etc/rc.sysinit: > >> /usr/sbin/readahead `/bin/cat /tmp/files` > > The following output might be nice to see: > # xargs it will show you which files are fragmented. (assuming you are > using ext3) I am using ext3 and none of the files are fragmented (it's a freshly installed system). -- Ziga From thomasz at hostmaster.org Thu Nov 18 17:19:39 2004 From: thomasz at hostmaster.org (Thomas Zehetbauer) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:19:39 +0100 Subject: ip_conntrack and IPv6 In-Reply-To: <1100669975.25350.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100669885.25350.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100669975.25350.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100798379.7343.80.camel@hostmaster.org> I had already requested IPv6 support in squid: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=130580 Tom -- T h o m a s Z e h e t b a u e r ( TZ251 ) PGP encrypted mail preferred - KeyID 96FFCB89 finger thomasz at hostmaster.org for key Quantum Mechanics is God's version of "Trust me." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 481 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From shiva at sewingwitch.com Thu Nov 18 17:48:18 2004 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:48:18 -0800 Subject: FC2 repos for new yum Message-ID: <88FAAC171436FD10CB17EBD2@[10.169.6.246]> Any chance we'll see fedora-release-2 updated to enable use of the new yum repository structure? It looks like the repository database is now part of the release package, not part of yum. From Curtis at GreenKey.net Thu Nov 18 18:33:07 2004 From: Curtis at GreenKey.net (Curtis Doty) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:33:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: fc3 on VirtualPC2004? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200411181833.iAIIX9G17980@alopias.GreenKey.net> 10:00am Rex Dieter said: > On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 10:25 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > >> On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 10:17:43AM -0500, David Sanders wrote: > >>>> The kernel runs anaconda, by the time anaconda runs its too late. > >>> > >>> The kernel that boots up anaconda is apparently OK. The kernel anaconda > >>> installs is not. > >> > >> They are the same kernel > > > > The installer uses the i586 kernel, not the i686 kernel. So not exactly > > Cool, thanks... I'll try shoe-horning in a i586 kernel into VirtualPC to > see if that works. If so, that's certainly much easier than having to > build a custom non-4g4g kernel. This works and is quite easy; requiring no rebuild or non-Fedora binaries. At the tail end of the install, before rebooting, switch to the shell console and remount disc1. Then, # rpm --root /mnt/sysimage --force -i /wherever/is/disc1/Fedora/RPMS/kernel-2.6.9-1.667.i586.rpm It b0rks a few times coming out of the chroot. But seems to work just fine for testing purposes. ../C From shiva at sewingwitch.com Thu Nov 18 19:40:45 2004 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:40:45 -0800 Subject: FC2 repos for new yum In-Reply-To: <88FAAC171436FD10CB17EBD2@[10.169.6.246]> References: <88FAAC171436FD10CB17EBD2@[10.169.6.246]> Message-ID: --On Thursday, November 18, 2004 9:48 AM -0800 Kenneth Porter wrote: > Any chance we'll see fedora-release-2 updated to enable use of the new > yum repository structure? It looks like the repository database is now > part of the release package, not part of yum. I installed the createrepos and yum packages from FC3, and just the repo files from the FC3 fedora-release package (extracted from the tarball). I then used createrepos to create metadata for my local base RPM repo. I still get a lot of 404's looking for metadata in the public mirrors, though. From notting at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 20:03:49 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:03:49 -0500 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <419CB119.5040109@terminus.co.uk> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <20041116061324.GD20837@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <1100676906.7467.149.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100719951.1314.24.camel@bree.local.net> <20041117205915.GB18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <419BBEAB.3070702@terminus.co.uk> <20041117232618.GA20847@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <419CB119.5040109@terminus.co.uk> Message-ID: <20041118200349.GI29541@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Stuart Children (stuart at terminus.co.uk) said: > >Breaks compatibility with third-party scripts. > > How do you mean... you're only adding new functionality. Is the problem > that third-party scripts wouldn't have a 'save' command? If so then you > check the exit value of the script, and if it's 1 then retry with > 'stop'. Again, you start to lose some of the time savings then, but this > should not be the common case, and would improve as people updated their > scripts. Hm, I was misreading it as calling that for all services, which obviously break. But even so, implementing it this way means that you read and run each script at least once, if not twice. The goal is to not look at the script at all, if at all possible. One suggestion is a chkconfig 'extension' that creates a TXX link, which means to don't bother running the stop script. Bill From mark at mitre.org Thu Nov 18 22:02:30 2004 From: mark at mitre.org (Mark Heslep) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:02:30 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100367319.5074.5.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419C0CCB.5080205@mitre.org> Message-ID: <419D1BF6.4000107@mitre.org> Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Mark Heslep writes: > >> Sam Varshavchik wrote: >> >>> Arjan van de Ven writes: >>> >>>> >>> >>> Add 30 seconds if you're booting off aic79xx.o >>> >>> Why does loading that gawd-awful microcode take so long? >>> >>> I don't notice ANY delay when booting XP on the same box. >>> >>> It shouldn't take more than one or two seconds to initialize the >>> SCSI card. >>> >>> >> Same with mptscsi / mptbase here. At least 30 (x2 - once in the bios >> post and again when the kernel driver loads) > > > Well, BIOS POST you can't do anything about. > Unless we can use Linux BIOS. I've got a couple scsi boxes that are candidates. > But XP initializes an Adaptec SCSI controller in, at most, 1-2 seconds. > > No way did Microsoft write the SCSI driver code themselves. It had to > have come from Adaptec, at some point down the line. > > So, if Adaptec is, supposedly, gung-ho about Linux these days, why > can't they produce a version of aic7xxx.ko that doesn't give you > plenty of time to brew a pot of coffee, before it's done whatever the > hell it's doing? Dont know if LSI Logic / Symbios is as eager to please. > > From pschobel at porchlight.ca Thu Nov 18 22:06:12 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:06:12 -0500 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> <1100718199.2463.57.camel@shiva> <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1100815572.2463.63.camel@shiva> i'm almost there :-) [root at store-lan1-141 stateless]# ./stateless-bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot /sbin/e2label: Attempt to read block from filesystem resulted in short read while trying to open /dev/hda4 Couldn't find valid filesystem superblock. /sbin/e2label: Attempt to read block from filesystem resulted in short read while trying to open /dev/hda4 Couldn't find valid filesystem superblock. ( 0%) [Error ] On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 03:09, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 14:03 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > > and now when i run the command, a gui interface pops up on my > > workstation for a brief second and then i get this error > > > > [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# python bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b > > /reserve-boot > > Traceback (most recent call last): > > File "bootstrap.py", line 324, in ? > > run ('aware-of-vacuity.boston.redhat.com', > > 'dc=sml-demo,dc=devel,dc=redhat,dc=com', True) > > File "bootstrap.py", line 321, in run > > gui.run() > > File "bootstrap.py", line 118, in run > > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, > > self.debug) > > TypeError: __init__() takes exactly 3 arguments (4 given) > > I think bootstrap.py is broken: > > # FIXME: supposed to pass a StatelessConfig here > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, self.debug) > > looks like this should work, though: > > self.cfg = StatelessConfig () > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.cfg, self.debug) > > However, the more recent work and testing was done on the command-line > version of the bootstrap tool. See the kickstart file I sent to you > earlier where I was doing: > > cd /usr/share/stateless > ./stateless-boostrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot > > Cheers, > Mark. > > From alex at naultbogue.com Thu Nov 18 22:23:34 2004 From: alex at naultbogue.com (Alexandre Nault) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:23:34 -0500 Subject: Remote bin client/server project (mainly for stateless, but could be used for any bin server) Message-ID: <200411181723.35067.alex@naultbogue.com> Here is an idea I had recently about a new (?) project. Please post about any comment, idea, suggestion, participation, feasability, usability, need for it, ... ========= The idea ========= A client/server architecture for up to date bin distribution. Server part: This is where the big stuff is. The latest up to date code for a particular program/package (or any version, but the goal is to always have the latest up to date version) would be on the server and the actual binary would be produced on the fly depending on the options required by the client. This would require either a collaboration from developpers or some other mean (like rsync or ?). Of course there is a caching mechanism for not recompiling the same binary/options combination all the time. Client part: The client mount a directory (like binfs, libfs or sbinfs) with either general options or program/package specific options. There is a preconfigured default on the server side so the client only need to provide the cpu arch. The client could also have a caching mechanism depending on the configuration. ============ implementation ============ This could be implemented in a diskless client mounting a NFS root either on the client side, or on the NFS server side. It could also be implemented on any kind of workstation with a syncronisation mechanism when the computer is linked to the network. The actual software implementation is not yet "on the table", it's still in the thought process. This is just the beginning of the idea. One can easily think about the many possibilities. Please feel free to discuss about it. - Alexandre From ellson at research.att.com Thu Nov 18 23:36:09 2004 From: ellson at research.att.com (John Ellson) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:36:09 -0500 Subject: general question about lazy loading of shared libraries Message-ID: <419D31E9.8040708@research.att.com> This is general linux question, rather than specifically FC4 devel, but I'm hoping there are experts here that will know. Are shared libraries on linux loaded lazily? i.e. not until the application invokes a function in the library? If so, how can I convince myself that it is working? If I run my application in a way that should not use a particular .so, how can I see that it is not loaded? Thanks in advance for any advice. John Ellson From lfarkas at bppiac.hu Thu Nov 18 23:44:08 2004 From: lfarkas at bppiac.hu (Farkas Levente) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:44:08 +0100 Subject: ntpd and selinux error in fc3 Message-ID: <419D33C8.3080209@bppiac.hu> hi, while the i start ntpd we'got (even after restorecon -v /usr/sbin/ntpd, fixfiles relabel): --------------------------------------------- audit(1100821314.712:0): avc: denied { read } for pid=6616 exe=/usr/sbin/ntpd name=mtab dev=hda2 ino=211823 scontext=root:system_r:ntpd_t tcontext=system_u:object_r:etc_runtime_t tclass=file audit(1100821314.713:0): avc: denied { read } for pid=6616 exe=/usr/sbin/ntpd name=meminfo dev=proc ino=-268435454 scontext=root:system_r:ntpd_t tcontext=system_u:object_r:proc_t tclass=file --------------------------------------------- yours -- Levente "Si vis pacem para bellum!" From roland at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 23:45:15 2004 From: roland at redhat.com (Roland McGrath) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:45:15 -0800 Subject: general question about lazy loading of shared libraries In-Reply-To: John Ellson's message of Thursday, 18 November 2004 18:36:09 -0500 <419D31E9.8040708@research.att.com> Message-ID: <200411182345.iAINjF9r005091@magilla.sf.frob.com> Directly-linked libraries are always loaded immediately on startup. Their PLT relocations may be deferred until used, but we always load the libraries themselves and run their initializers at startup time. From walters at redhat.com Thu Nov 18 23:50:09 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:50:09 -0500 Subject: ntpd and selinux error in fc3 In-Reply-To: <419D33C8.3080209@bppiac.hu> References: <419D33C8.3080209@bppiac.hu> Message-ID: <1100821809.8338.38.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 00:44 +0100, Farkas Levente wrote: > hi, > while the i start ntpd we'got (even after restorecon -v /usr/sbin/ntpd, > fixfiles relabel): Should both be fixed in the latest selinux-policy-targeted package. Try: ftp://people.redhat.com/dwalsh/SELinux/FC3/ I think this will be released as an FC3 update as well. From ellson at research.att.com Fri Nov 19 00:28:39 2004 From: ellson at research.att.com (John Ellson) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:28:39 -0500 Subject: general question about lazy loading of shared libraries In-Reply-To: <200411182345.iAINjF9r005091@magilla.sf.frob.com> References: <200411182345.iAINjF9r005091@magilla.sf.frob.com> Message-ID: <419D3E37.9090203@research.att.com> Roland McGrath wrote: >Directly-linked libraries are always loaded immediately on startup. >Their PLT relocations may be deferred until used, but we always load the >libraries themselves and run their initializers at startup time. > > > So, if I understand, if I want lazy loading I have to code it myself using libltdl ? John From otaylor at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 00:43:55 2004 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:43:55 -0500 Subject: general question about lazy loading of shared libraries In-Reply-To: <200411182345.iAINjF9r005091@magilla.sf.frob.com> References: <200411182345.iAINjF9r005091@magilla.sf.frob.com> Message-ID: <1100825035.8513.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 15:45 -0800, Roland McGrath wrote: > Directly-linked libraries are always loaded immediately on startup. > Their PLT relocations may be deferred until used, but we always load the > libraries themselves and run their initializers at startup time. To be clear here, any pages of the library that don't need to be modified to do relocations are only "loaded" in a bookkeeping sense - ld.so tells the kernel to mmap the library, and the kernel assigns the library a place in memory, but pages won't actually be read off disk until they are used. One of the big ways that prelink reduces startup time is being making the set of pages that need to be loaded to do relocations smaller. I don't know an easy way to tell exactly what pages of the libraries you are using are touched and thus read off disk at start up... and it's not even a well defined question - you can't tell if a page was read because of your app or because of another app. You can get a general idea by looking at the display at top, roughly speaking: VIRT - amount of memory your app has loaded in the bookkeeping sense RES - subset of VIRT in memory at the current time SHARE - subset of VIRT that some other application is also using Regards, Owen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ellson at research.att.com Fri Nov 19 01:06:52 2004 From: ellson at research.att.com (John Ellson) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:06:52 -0500 Subject: general question about lazy loading of shared libraries In-Reply-To: <1100825035.8513.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200411182345.iAINjF9r005091@magilla.sf.frob.com> <1100825035.8513.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <419D472C.3090401@research.att.com> Owen Taylor wrote: >On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 15:45 -0800, Roland McGrath wrote: > > >>Directly-linked libraries are always loaded immediately on startup. >>Their PLT relocations may be deferred until used, but we always load the >>libraries themselves and run their initializers at startup time. >> >> > >To be clear here, any pages of the library that don't need to >be modified to do relocations are only "loaded" in a bookkeeping >sense - ld.so tells the kernel to mmap the library, and the kernel >assigns the library a place in memory, but pages won't actually >be read off disk until they are used. > >One of the big ways that prelink reduces startup time is being >making the set of pages that need to be loaded to do relocations >smaller. > >I don't know an easy way to tell exactly what pages of the libraries >you are using are touched and thus read off disk at start up... and it's >not even a well defined question - you can't tell if a page was >read because of your app or because of another app. > >You can get a general idea by looking at the display at top, roughly >speaking: > > VIRT - amount of memory your app has loaded in the bookkeeping sense > RES - subset of VIRT in memory at the current time > SHARE - subset of VIRT that some other application is also using > >Regards, > Owen > > > Thanks Owen, thats hopeful. My real goal is to avoid the disk activity for unused modules. It sounds like, to the extent that the libraries use one or more whole pages, that might actually happen. I'm working on Graphviz graph layout tools that support multiple renderers. I'd like to link all the renderers but only incur the disk i/o cost for the one thats used in a single invocation. I'm not concerned about these libraries being shared with other apps, or other instances of the same app, since that will happen rarely, and in any case then the disk i/o costs will be shared. Does the deferred paging depend on prelinking having been performed? Is there a way to detect the maximum RES memory used by a program before it exited (or before it exits if I need to instrument it)? John From alan at clueserver.org Fri Nov 19 06:39:51 2004 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:39:51 -0800 Subject: Cardbus problems on HP zv5000z Message-ID: <1100846391.31019.19.camel@zontar.fnordora.org> I have an HP zv5000z laptop. It has an AMD64 3700+ running FC3. Using the supplied kernel cardbus does not work. Using this patch (attached) cardbus works fine. What does it take to get this added to the Fedora kernels so I don't have to rebuild every kernel upgrade? Do I need to send Penguin Mint bribes to Alan Cox? -- 'This message has not been made with the consent or cooperation of the Federal Board of Regulations (F.B.R.) or the Central Enquires Agency (C.E.A.). Any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental, and so forth and so on. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cardbus.patch Type: text/x-patch Size: 1199 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mpeters at mac.com Fri Nov 19 07:15:18 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:15:18 +0000 Subject: PPC Fedora (was anaconda ftp install) In-Reply-To: <1100776349.8191.7141.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> (from dwmw2@infradead.org on Thu Nov 18 03:12:29 2004) References: <1100703645l.3954l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1100719875.1314.22.camel@bree.local.net> <1100731552l.2367l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> <1100776349.8191.7141.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100848518l.4339l.11l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/18/2004 03:12:29 AM, David Woodhouse wrote: > > You could try Fedora :) Easier said than done. I tried. Initially I did a yum update to FC2 from YDL 3.0 The yum update worked, with some manual intervention, it booted, but the keyboard and nic were non functional. Keyboard - meh. NIC I need to ssh in. I tried then yum updating to FC3Test2 - partway through, it broke - I'm guessing too radical of an update. Finally I tried from the boot.iso - but this is a first gen imac, and the boot.iso has a bug where it can't load the nic module needed for nfs install. I found that out from the mailing list archive after looking for what went wrong. I have one more thing to try - the FC2 yum update that worked, and then build new kernel with nic compiled in before rebooting. If that doesn't work - well, then, I tried :D I think it's a given that this isn't going to be an ftp server for installing x86 fedora ... now this old iMac is a toy. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Nov 19 07:41:02 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 02:41:02 -0500 Subject: Finding the "best" mirror In-Reply-To: <20041118164349.432b2c43.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <20041118152603.GA25269@lisas.de> <20041118164349.432b2c43.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <1100850062.5163.17.camel@cutter> > Haven't looked at this yet, but how about selecting more than one mirror > (e.g. the 5 best), creating a local yum mirror file, and pointing yum's > configuration to that file:///path/to/that/mirrorlist? I really like the > fact that yum tries another server when one doesn't seem to respond, which > wouldn't be the case anymore with a single baseurl configured. What about combining this: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/284631 with netselect and generating a mirrorlist of the best mirrors every night or something? -sv From arjanv at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 08:00:01 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:00:01 +0100 Subject: general question about lazy loading of shared libraries In-Reply-To: <419D472C.3090401@research.att.com> References: <200411182345.iAINjF9r005091@magilla.sf.frob.com> <1100825035.8513.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419D472C.3090401@research.att.com> Message-ID: <1100851201.2814.12.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 20:06 -0500, John Ellson wrote: > >I don't know an easy way to tell exactly what pages of the libraries > >you are using are touched and thus read off disk at start up... and it's > >not even a well defined question - you can't tell if a page was > >read because of your app or because of another app. but you can tell which pages are in memory at least. If people want I can code a small app for this > I'm working on Graphviz graph layout tools that support multiple > renderers. that kind of sounds like a plugin situation, for which dlopen is quite suitable. > Does the deferred paging depend on prelinking having been performed? no that happens always (even with the main binary btw); the difference prelink makes is that without prelink you need to touch (and thus load) more pages even if you don't use the library, for relocations. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From loony at loonybin.org Fri Nov 19 08:17:09 2004 From: loony at loonybin.org (Peter Arremann) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 03:17:09 -0500 Subject: Finding the "best" mirror In-Reply-To: <1100850062.5163.17.camel@cutter> References: <20041118152603.GA25269@lisas.de> <20041118164349.432b2c43.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <1100850062.5163.17.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <200411190317.10068.loony@loonybin.org> On Friday 19 November 2004 02:41, seth vidal wrote: > What about combining this: > http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/284631 > with netselect and generating a mirrorlist of the best mirrors every > night or something? > > -sv Not a good idea in my opinion... I try keep my cable modem fairly unused during the day for interactive stuff but at night I run mirrors and backup some of my data to a remote server - in other words, if you test the performance at that time automatically, you'll never find a worthwhile server... How about getting the 5 fastest results the first time - then when you run, start with the first in the list (that way you probably get more consistent performance) and if that server isn't available, the user cancels out cause its too slow or something like that, then go to the next server and also find a new one in the background? That should be fairly seemless for the user since its fairly unlikely that a normal user will run out of servers in his list before a new one has been found... Well, at least at 3:15am this sounds like a good plan :-) Peter. From arjanv at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 08:29:16 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:29:16 +0100 Subject: Finding the "best" mirror In-Reply-To: <1100850062.5163.17.camel@cutter> References: <20041118152603.GA25269@lisas.de> <20041118164349.432b2c43.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <1100850062.5163.17.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1100852955.2814.17.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 02:41 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > Haven't looked at this yet, but how about selecting more than one mirror > > (e.g. the 5 best), creating a local yum mirror file, and pointing yum's > > configuration to that file:///path/to/that/mirrorlist? I really like the > > fact that yum tries another server when one doesn't seem to respond, which > > wouldn't be the case anymore with a single baseurl configured. > > What about combining this: > http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/284631 > with netselect and generating a mirrorlist of the best mirrors every > night or something? hmmm measuring during the times the net is quiet sounds evil... also loading a bunch of mirrors all the time just to measure bw sounds like it won't scale well with the number of people doing it. I wonder if yum could do a reverse dns lookup, and then do a right-to-left matching trick on the name vs the mirrors (perhaps excepting .com/.net/.org); that way for me, I get at least mirrors in .nl, and if my ISP's mirror gets into the mirror list, I'll always get that one. Well maybe it needs a few tricks, like traceroute to somewhere with a TTL of 4, and use some of the intermediate machines for the matching as well (and have the same info available for each mirror) so that you stay within the same upstream bandwidth provider etc etc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Nigel.Metheringham at dev.intechnology.co.uk Fri Nov 19 09:21:49 2004 From: Nigel.Metheringham at dev.intechnology.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:21:49 +0000 Subject: Finding the "best" mirror In-Reply-To: <200411190317.10068.loony@loonybin.org> References: <20041118152603.GA25269@lisas.de> <20041118164349.432b2c43.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <1100850062.5163.17.camel@cutter> <200411190317.10068.loony@loonybin.org> Message-ID: <1100856110.11008.10.camel@angua.localnet> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 03:17 -0500, Peter Arremann wrote: > How about getting the 5 fastest results the first time - then when you run, > start with the first in the list (that way you probably get more consistent > performance) and if that server isn't available, the user cancels out cause > its too slow or something like that, then go to the next server and also find > a new one in the background? That should be fairly seemless for the user > since its fairly unlikely that a normal user will run out of servers in his > list before a new one has been found... This could have some interesting effects.... The nearest and normally best server to me is in a building within sight and with direct fibre. However that server is a known Fedora mirror. On release days (or weeks) it, um, struggles somewhat (load average of 250 is normal) and we hit the user limits. So if you install during the release week, and (rightly) update immediately afterwards, you *could* end up with strange ideas of how the network looks, which are not really valid when the fuss calms down a bit. Not a major problem, but release periods tends to be... strange. Nigel. -- [ Nigel Metheringham Nigel.Metheringham at InTechnology.co.uk ] [ - Comments in this message are my own and not ITO opinion/policy - ] From dwmw2 at infradead.org Fri Nov 19 09:17:12 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:17:12 +0000 Subject: PPC Fedora (was anaconda ftp install) In-Reply-To: <1100848518l.4339l.11l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100703645l.3954l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1100719875.1314.22.camel@bree.local.net> <1100731552l.2367l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> <1100776349.8191.7141.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1100848518l.4339l.11l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1100855832.21273.298.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 07:15 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > Initially I did a yum update to FC2 from YDL 3.0 > The yum update worked, with some manual intervention, it booted, but > the keyboard and nic were non functional. Keyboard - meh. NIC I need to > ssh in. Heh. Not loading USB controller modules perhaps? Even booting the older YDL kernel didn't work? > I tried then yum updating to FC3Test2 - partway through, it broke - I'm > guessing too radical of an update. Interesting. I've done a yum update from FC2 to various stages of FC3 and it's worked. What happened? > Finally I tried from the boot.iso - but this is a first gen imac, and > the boot.iso has a bug where it can't load the nic module needed for > nfs install. I found that out from the mailing list archive after > looking for what went wrong. It loads the sungem module just fine. Then it fails to notice that there's an eth0, and it asks you what module it should load.... helpfully removing 'sungem' from the list on the basis that that one's already loaded :) -- dwmw2 From stuartm at connecttech.com Fri Nov 19 10:05:07 2004 From: stuartm at connecttech.com (Stuart MacDonald) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 05:05:07 -0500 Subject: ls colours question Message-ID: <02ef01c4ce1f$3fd3f520$294b82ce@stuartm> I just installed FC3. I can't find a Fedora specific user list; if this is not the appropriate place for my question, please point me on my way. ls colours in FC3 are much much darker than in previous RH releases. It's almost as if my old RH 7.2 system was using light blue for directories, and FC3 is using dark blue. I've compared the LD_COLORS env variable, they are identical. I've compared the actual ASNI codes that ls outputs (--color=always > file) and they are the same! So that implies that the terminal is doing the colors differently. I tried slogging through the termcap/terminfo, I really did. I was unable to find anything that looked like a color table/specification/ layout/map. Why is "blue" now "dark blue"? How can I change that so the new blue is the same as the old blue (aka "light blue")? ..Stu From mpeters at mac.com Fri Nov 19 10:40:31 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:40:31 +0000 Subject: PPC Fedora (was anaconda ftp install) In-Reply-To: <1100855832.21273.298.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> (from dwmw2@infradead.org on Fri Nov 19 01:17:12 2004) References: <1100703645l.3954l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1100719875.1314.22.camel@bree.local.net> <1100731552l.2367l.1l@devel.mpeters.us> <1100776349.8191.7141.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1100848518l.4339l.11l@devel.mpeters.us> <1100855832.21273.298.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> Message-ID: <1100860831l.15926l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/19/2004 01:17:12 AM, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 07:15 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > Initially I did a yum update to FC2 from YDL 3.0 > > The yum update worked, with some manual intervention, it booted, > but > > > the keyboard and nic were non functional. Keyboard - meh. NIC I > need > to > > ssh in. > > Heh. Not loading USB controller modules perhaps? Even booting the > older > YDL kernel didn't work? I neglected to turn off kudzu, and the YDL kernel hung at kudzu, not detecting the keyboard and not skipping. kudzu (and rhgb on x86) I typically like to disable because they are weaknesses in the boot process. booting the YDL kernel single worked, but the keymap was screwed. > > Interesting. I've done a yum update from FC2 to various stages of FC3 > and it's worked. What happened? Yum was semi working but spitting out errors, it would down load but not install. the ls command worked but spit out errors, rpm was capable of installing but not uninstalling. > > It loads the sungem module just fine. Then it fails to notice that > there's an eth0, and it asks you what module it should load.... > helpfully removing 'sungem' from the list on the basis that that > one's > already loaded :) I installed a minimal YDL 3.0 and then did some pruning, got it down to under 200 packages allegedly safely installed (with rpm -e) - including removal of yum as the ydl yum doesn't know what to do with ppc64 packages in the headers list. I manually updated glibc and its dependencies succesfully, manually updated rpm and its dependencies succesfully, and them yum - and at this point have yum claiming it can do a update without errors - so when that's done, I'll yum install everything needed to build the kernel with eth and usb in the kernel, install the new kudzu but turn it off, hope it brings up network when it reboots. But if that fails, I'll consider myself whipped :D compiling a kernel on this thing is gonna be slow - it does have a Newer 433 G4 from just before they died in 2001/2002 - but it's still slow. From guhvies at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 11:11:39 2004 From: guhvies at gmail.com (ne...) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:11:39 -0500 Subject: ls colours question In-Reply-To: <02ef01c4ce1f$3fd3f520$294b82ce@stuartm> References: <02ef01c4ce1f$3fd3f520$294b82ce@stuartm> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 05:05:07 -0500, Stuart MacDonald wrote: > I just installed FC3. I can't find a Fedora specific user list; if > this is not the appropriate place for my question, please point me on > my way. fedora-list at redhat.com -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Certified: 75% bastard, 42% of which is tard. http://www.thespark.com/bastardtest From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 19 11:43:44 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:43:44 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Hallo Dave, > On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 06:29:10PM +0100, Frank wrote: > > Hallo, > > > > how about the 'Error: *** .text refers to 00000XXX' Descriptions ... is > > this interessting for the builded Kernel ... yes rpmbuild does the Job > > very good > > > > Error: ./init/initramfs.o .text refers to 00000fc2 > > R_386_PC32 .init.text > > Error: ./init/initramfs.o .text refers to 00000ff4 > > R_386_PC32 .init.text > > Error: ./init/initramfs.o .text refers to 000013c4 > > R_386_PC32 .init.text > > Error: ./init/main.o .text refers to 00000086 > > R_386_PC32 .init.text > > Error: ./mm/bootmem.o .altinstructions refers to 00000000 > > R_386_32 .init.text > > Error: ./mm/slab.o .text refers to 0000059e R_386_32 .init.data > > Error: ./mm/slab.o .data refers to 00000138 R_386_32 .init.text > > Error: ./mm/slab.o .altinstructions refers to 00000000 > > R_386_32 .init.text > > Error: ./mm/slab.o .altinstructions refers to 0000000c > > R_386_32 .init.text > > Error: ./net/ipv4/netfilter/ip_nat_rule.o .data refers to 00000028 > > R_386_32 .init.data > > Done > > These are cases where we discard code/data, and then reference > it later, which is bad (nothing guaranteeing that memory won't > be stomped over by something else). Some of these are getting fixed upstream, > so at some point when we pull in the latest upstream, we'll > get a bunch of these fixed. > > Dave > yes the latest 2.6.9-1.678 works much better except some call traces, but Fedora runs OK. It boots up Gnome, sometimes it hangs at reboot Time i changed in the .config File from P4 to Athlon and removed some oberloaded Network Option such es IPV6, multicasting IPX ... installed thew latest NVidia Driver and removed the AGP Drivers completly in the Kernel .config with make menuconfig Now, i can use the NVidia AGP Driver with Option "NvAGP" "1" Here some call traces, found after it successfully bootet up in messages Nov 19 12:11:13 client shutdown: shutting down for system reboot Nov 19 12:11:14 client init: Switching to runlevel: 6 Nov 19 12:11:14 client gdm-autologin(pam_unix)[2742]: session closed for user frank Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address d75d36fc Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: printing eip: Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: c0156ba4 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: *pde = 174001e3 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Oops: 0002 [#1] Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Modules linked in: nvidia(U) vmnet(U) vmmon(U) i2c_dev i2c_core nfs lockd sunrpc ipt_REJECT ipt_state ip_conntrack iptable_filter ip_tables ntfs nls_iso8859_1 vfat fat dm_mod button battery ac uhci_hcd parport_pc parport emu10k1_gp gameport snd_emu10k1 snd_rawmidi snd_pcm_oss snd_mixer_oss snd_pcm snd_timer snd_seq_device snd_ac97_codec snd_page_alloc snd_util_mem snd_hwdep snd soundcore 3c59x floppy ext3 jbd Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: CPU: 0 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EIP: 0060:[] Tainted: P VLI Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EFLAGS: 00010287 (2.6.9-1.678_FC3.root) Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EIP is at d_alloc+0x5d/0x198 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: eax: 00000007 ebx: d75d36e0 ecx: 00000007 edx: d8c23f48 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: esi: da25f2e0 edi: d8c23f30 ebp: d75d374c esp: d8c23eec Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: ds: 007b es: 007b ss: 0068 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Process 05-pam_console. (pid: 3354, threadinfo=d8c23000 task=d2665560) Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Stack: 273dc0d8 d8c23f28 c028cfac d8c23f48 dff19460 d8c23f28 dffd51c4 c019ec0c Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: d8c23f20 dffd51a0 da25f2e0 d8c23f30 dffd51c4 c022ec32 dffd51a0 3330315b Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: 005d3338 c0157872 c02c8d80 00000001 00000001 00000000 00000003 0000288f Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Call Trace: Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] vsprintf+0xd/0xf Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] sock_map_file+0x66/0x106 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] alloc_inode+0xf6/0x179 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] sock_map_fd+0x16/0x38 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] sys_socket+0x25/0x38 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] sys_socketcall+0xa1/0x1cc Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] __fput+0xb8/0xdd Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] syscall_call+0x7/0xb Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Code: 42 04 83 f8 23 76 24 40 ba d0 00 00 00 e8 56 dd fd ff 85 c0 89 c5 75 13 a1 c4 6b 34 c0 89 da e8 b0 dd fd ff 31 c0 e9 33 01 00 00 <89> 6b 1c 8b 74 24 0c 8b 46 04 89 43 18 8b 06 89 43 14 8b 54 24 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: <1>Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address d76e6000 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: printing eip: Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: c019f642 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: *pde = 174001e3 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Oops: 0002 [#2] Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Modules linked in: nvidia(U) vmnet(U) vmmon(U) i2c_dev i2c_core nfs lockd sunrpc ipt_REJECT ipt_state ip_conntrack iptable_filter ip_tables ntfs nls_iso8859_1 vfat fat dm_mod button battery ac uhci_hcd parport_pc parport emu10k1_gp gameport snd_emu10k1 snd_rawmidi snd_pcm_oss snd_mixer_oss snd_pcm snd_timer snd_seq_device snd_ac97_codec snd_page_alloc snd_util_mem snd_hwdep snd soundcore 3c59x floppy ext3 jbd Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: CPU: 0 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EIP: 0060:[] Tainted: P VLI Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EFLAGS: 00010246 (2.6.9-1.678_FC3.root) Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EIP is at fast_clear_page+0x10/0x43 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: eax: 0000003f ebx: d76e6000 ecx: c12edcc0 edx: d76e6000 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: esi: c12edcc0 edi: dedc4e14 ebp: d33c3a50 esp: d2668e84 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: ds: 007b es: 007b ss: 0068 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Process uname (pid: 3369, threadinfo=d2668000 task=d295baa0) Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Stack: d76e6000 c01394da df51da40 dedc4e14 00000000 df51da40 d33c3a50 c01395e6 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: df480004 00000001 0078519c 00000000 00000000 0078519c d33c3a50 df51da40 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: 00000001 0078519c df480004 df51da40 d33c3a50 c01398e2 00000001 dedc4e14 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Call Trace: Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_anonymous_page +0x6c/0x120 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_no_page+0x58/0x235 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] handle_mm_fault+0x71/0xfd Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_page_fault+0x19b/0x4ba Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] unmap_vmas+0xf1/0x1c1 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] __fput+0xb8/0xdd Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] unmap_vma_list+0xe/0x17 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_munmap+0x105/0x10f Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_page_fault+0x0/0x4ba Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] error_code+0x2f/0x38 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Code: 66 a5 a8 01 74 01 a4 0f 20 c0 83 c8 08 0f 22 c0 8b 3c 24 5a 5b 5e 89 f8 5f 5d c3 53 89 c3 e8 01 ab f6 ff 0f ef c0 b8 3f 00 00 00 <0f> e7 03 0f e7 43 08 0f e7 43 10 0f e7 43 18 0f e7 43 20 0f e7 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: <6>note: uname[3369] exited with preempt_count 1 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address d76b2000 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: printing eip: Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: c019f642 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: *pde = 174001e3 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Oops: 0002 [#3] Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Modules linked in: nvidia(U) vmnet(U) vmmon(U) i2c_dev i2c_core nfs lockd sunrpc ipt_REJECT ipt_state ip_conntrack iptable_filter ip_tables ntfs nls_iso8859_1 vfat fat dm_mod button battery ac uhci_hcd parport_pc parport emu10k1_gp gameport snd_emu10k1 snd_rawmidi snd_pcm_oss snd_mixer_oss snd_pcm snd_timer snd_seq_device snd_ac97_codec snd_page_alloc snd_util_mem snd_hwdep snd soundcore 3c59x floppy ext3 jbd Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: CPU: 0 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EIP: 0060:[] Tainted: P VLI Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EFLAGS: 00010246 (2.6.9-1.678_FC3.root) Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EIP is at fast_clear_page+0x10/0x43 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: eax: 0000003f ebx: d76b2000 ecx: c12ed640 edx: d76b2000 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: esi: c12ed640 edi: d7885ffc ebp: df4b2b4c esp: d79b2de0 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: ds: 007b es: 007b ss: 0068 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Process 05-pam_console. (pid: 3365, threadinfo=d79b2000 task=d2c68aa0) Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Stack: d76b2000 c01394da df60f0a0 d7885ffc 00000000 df60f0a0 df4b2b4c c01395e6 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: df627b7c 00000001 b7fff000 00000000 00000000 b7fff000 df4b2b4c df60f0a0 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: 00000001 b7fff000 df627b7c df60f0a0 df4b2b4c c01398e2 00000001 d7885ffc Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Call Trace: Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_anonymous_page +0x6c/0x120 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_no_page+0x58/0x235 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] handle_mm_fault+0x71/0xfd Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_page_fault+0x19b/0x4ba Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_page_fault+0x0/0x4ba Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] error_code+0x2f/0x38 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] __copy_to_user_ll+0x30/0x46 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] proc_file_read+0x1b6/0x207 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] vfs_read+0xb6/0xe2 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] sys_read+0x3c/0x62 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] syscall_call+0x7/0xb Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Code: 66 a5 a8 01 74 01 a4 0f 20 c0 83 c8 08 0f 22 c0 8b 3c 24 5a 5b 5e 89 f8 5f 5d c3 53 89 c3 e8 01 ab f6 ff 0f ef c0 b8 3f 00 00 00 <0f> e7 03 0f e7 43 08 0f e7 43 10 0f e7 43 18 0f e7 43 20 0f e7 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: <6>note: 05-pam_console.[3365] exited with preempt_count 1 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address d7631000 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: printing eip: Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: c019f642 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: *pde = 174001e3 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Oops: 0002 [#4] Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Modules linked in: nvidia(U) vmnet(U) vmmon(U) i2c_dev i2c_core nfs lockd sunrpc ipt_REJECT ipt_state ip_conntrack iptable_filter ip_tables ntfs nls_iso8859_1 vfat fat dm_mod button battery ac uhci_hcd parport_pc parport emu10k1_gp gameport snd_emu10k1 snd_rawmidi snd_pcm_oss snd_mixer_oss snd_pcm snd_timer snd_seq_device snd_ac97_codec snd_page_alloc snd_util_mem snd_hwdep snd soundcore 3c59x floppy ext3 jbd Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: CPU: 0 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EIP: 0060:[] Tainted: P VLI Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EFLAGS: 00010246 (2.6.9-1.678_FC3.root) Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: EIP is at fast_clear_page+0x10/0x43 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: eax: 0000003f ebx: d7631000 ecx: c12ec620 edx: d7631000 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: esi: c12ec620 edi: d9eaa384 ebp: da18ee94 esp: da62ee84 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: ds: 007b es: 007b ss: 0068 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Process 05-pam_console. (pid: 3376, threadinfo=da62e000 task=d295baa0) Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Stack: d7631000 c01394da df662ac0 d9eaa384 00000000 df662ac0 da18ee94 c01395e6 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: d3a1f080 00000001 080e1ac0 00000000 00000000 080e1ac0 da18ee94 df662ac0 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: 00000001 080e1ac0 d3a1f080 df662ac0 da18ee94 c01398e2 00000001 d9eaa384 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Call Trace: Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_anonymous_page +0x6c/0x120 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_no_page+0x58/0x235 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] handle_mm_fault+0x71/0xfd Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_page_fault+0x19b/0x4ba Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] chrdev_open+0x11c/0x127 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] __vma_link+0x59/0x66 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] vma_link+0x13/0x70 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_brk+0x1d4/0x207 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] do_page_fault+0x0/0x4ba Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: [] error_code+0x2f/0x38 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Code: 66 a5 a8 01 74 01 a4 0f 20 c0 83 c8 08 0f 22 c0 8b 3c 24 5a 5b 5e 89 f8 5f 5d c3 53 89 c3 e8 01 ab f6 ff 0f ef c0 b8 3f 00 00 00 <0f> e7 03 0f e7 43 08 0f e7 43 10 0f e7 43 18 0f e7 43 20 0f e7 Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: <6>note: 05-pam_console.[3376] exited with preempt_count 1 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address d742911c Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: printing eip: Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: c01380dd Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: *pde = 174001e3 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: Oops: 0000 [#5] Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: Modules linked in: nvidia(U) vmnet(U) vmmon(U) i2c_dev i2c_core nfs lockd sunrpc ipt_REJECT ipt_state ip_conntrack iptable_filter ip_tables ntfs nls_iso8859_1 vfat fat dm_mod button battery ac uhci_hcd parport_pc parport emu10k1_gp gameport snd_emu10k1 snd_rawmidi snd_pcm_oss snd_mixer_oss snd_pcm snd_timer snd_seq_device snd_ac97_codec snd_page_alloc snd_util_mem snd_hwdep snd soundcore 3c59x floppy ext3 jbd Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: CPU: 0 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: EIP: 0060:[] Tainted: P VLI Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: EFLAGS: 00010287 (2.6.9-1.678_FC3.root) Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: EIP is at zap_pte_range+0xc7/0x20e Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: eax: 00076000 ebx: df8d4080 ecx: c12e8520 edx: 0002f000 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: esi: 00000000 edi: 00000000 ebp: d742911c esp: daa3edf4 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: ds: 007b es: 007b ss: 0068 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: Process default.hotplug (pid: 3412, threadinfo=daa3e000 task=d7676aa0) Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: Stack: 19427045 0002f000 08047000 c03370b4 08047000 08076000 df8d4084 c03370b4 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: c0138266 0002f000 00000000 08047000 df8d4084 08076000 c03370b4 c01382c5 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: 0002f000 00000000 daa3ee9c 08047000 d30af9a8 080d8000 c01383d9 08076000 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: Call Trace: Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] zap_pmd_range+0x42/0x65 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] unmap_page_range+0x3c/0x5f Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] unmap_vmas+0xf1/0x1c1 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] exit_mmap+0x56/0x106 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] mmput+0x3d/0x60 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] exec_mmap+0x9f/0xb9 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] flush_old_exec+0x43/0x200 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] kernel_read+0x31/0x3b Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] load_elf_binary+0x518/0xb9c Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] copy_strings+0x21a/0x224 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] search_binary_handler +0x6f/0x1be Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] do_execve+0x168/0x1f6 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] sys_execve+0x2a/0x6f Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: [] syscall_call+0x7/0xb Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: Code: 40 00 29 7c 24 04 81 64 24 04 00 f0 ff ff 85 f6 74 0d 8b 46 04 85 c0 75 06 83 3e 00 0f 44 f0 31 ff 3b 7c 24 04 0f 83 2b 01 00 00 <8b> 55 00 85 d2 0f 84 12 01 00 00 f6 c2 81 0f 84 e8 00 00 00 89 Nov 19 12:11:15 client kernel: <6>note: default.hotplug[3412] exited with preempt_count 1 Nov 19 12:11:15 client haldaemon: haldaemon -TERM succeeded Nov 19 12:11:15 client messagebus: messagebus -TERM succeeded Nov 19 12:11:15 client atd: Herunterfahren von atd succeeded Nov 19 12:11:15 client xfs[2230]: terminating Nov 19 12:11:15 client xfs: Herunterfahren von xfs succeeded Nov 19 12:11:15 client sshd: sshd -TERM succeeded Nov 19 12:11:16 client sendmail: Herunterfahren von sendmail succeeded Nov 19 12:11:16 client sendmail: Herunterfahren von sm-client succeeded Nov 19 12:11:16 client crond: Herunterfahren von crond succeeded Nov 19 12:11:16 client nifd: Herunterfahren von nifd succeeded Nov 19 12:11:16 client netfs: NFS-Dateisysteme aush?ngen: succeeded Nov 19 12:11:18 client rpc.statd[2020]: Caught signal 15, un-registering and exiting. Nov 19 12:11:18 client nfslock: Herunterfahren von rpc.statd succeeded Nov 19 12:11:19 client portmap: Herunterfahren von portmap succeeded Nov 19 12:11:19 client kernel: Kernel logging (proc) stopped. Nov 19 12:11:19 client kernel: Kernel log daemon terminating. Nov 19 12:11:20 client exiting on signal 15 Nov 19 12:12:26 client syslogd 1.4.1: restart. Nov 19 12:12:26 client syslog: Starten von syslogd succeeded Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: klogd 1.4.1, log source = /proc/kmsg started. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Linux version 2.6.9-1.678_FC3.root (root at client.figaro.fr) (gcc version 3.4.2 20041017 (Red Hat 3.4.2-6.fc3)) #1 Thu Nov 18 13:26:42 CET 2004 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: BIOS-provided physical RAM map: Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: BIOS-e820: 0000000000000000 - 000000000009fc00 (usable) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: BIOS-e820: 000000000009fc00 - 00000000000a0000 (reserved) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: BIOS-e820: 00000000000f0000 - 0000000000100000 (reserved) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: BIOS-e820: 0000000000100000 - 000000001ffec000 (usable) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: BIOS-e820: 000000001ffec000 - 000000001ffef000 (ACPI data) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: BIOS-e820: 000000001ffef000 - 000000001ffff000 (reserved) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: BIOS-e820: 000000001ffff000 - 0000000020000000 (ACPI NVS) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: BIOS-e820: 00000000ffff0000 - 0000000100000000 (reserved) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: 0MB HIGHMEM available. Nov 19 12:12:27 client syslog: Starten von klogd succeeded Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: 511MB LOWMEM available. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: zapping low mappings. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: DMI 2.3 present. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PM-Timer IO Port: 0xe408 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Built 1 zonelists Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Kernel command line: ro root=LABEL=/1 selinux=0 rhgb quiet Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Initializing CPU#0 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: CPU 0 irqstacks, hard=c0333000 soft=c0332000 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 11, 32768 bytes) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Detected 1312.477 MHz processor. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Using tsc for high-res timesource Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Console: colour VGA+ 80x25 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Dentry cache hash table entries: 131072 (order: 7, 524288 bytes) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Inode-cache hash table entries: 65536 (order: 6, 262144 bytes) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Memory: 515796k/524208k available (1526k kernel code, 7756k reserved, 556k data, 128k init, 0k highmem) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Security Scaffold v1.0.0 initialized Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: SELinux: Disabled at boot. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Capability LSM initialized Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Mount-cache hash table entries: 512 (order: 0, 4096 bytes) Nov 19 12:12:27 client irqbalance: Starten von irqbalance succeeded Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: CPU: L1 I Cache: 64K (64 bytes/line), D cache 64K (64 bytes/line) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: CPU: L2 Cache: 64K (64 bytes/line) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Intel machine check architecture supported. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Intel machine check reporting enabled on CPU#0. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: CPU: AMD Duron(tm) Processor stepping 01 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Enabling fast FPU save and restore... done. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Enabling unmasked SIMD FPU exception support... done. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Checking 'hlt' instruction... OK. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: IRQ9 SCI: Edge set to Level Trigger. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: checking if image is initramfs... it is Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Freeing initrd memory: 376k freed Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: NET: Registered protocol family 16 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: PCI: PCI BIOS revision 2.10 entry at 0xf1180, last bus=1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: PCI: Using configuration type 1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: mtrr: v2.0 (20020519) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: Subsystem revision 20040816 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: Interpreter enabled Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: Using PIC for interrupt routing Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKA] (IRQs 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 *11 12 14 15) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKB] (IRQs 3 4 5 6 7 9 *10 11 12 14 15) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKC] (IRQs 3 *4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 14 15) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKD] (IRQs *3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 14 15) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI Root Bridge [PCI0] (00:00) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: PCI: Probing PCI hardware (bus 00) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Linux Plug and Play Support v0.97 (c) Adam Belay Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: usbcore: registered new driver usbfs Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: usbcore: registered new driver hub Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: PCI: Using ACPI for IRQ routing Nov 19 12:12:27 client portmap: Starten von portmap succeeded Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKD] enabled at IRQ 3 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:00:04.2[D] -> GSI 3 (level, low) -> IRQ 3 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:00:04.3[D] -> GSI 3 (level, low) -> IRQ 3 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKC] enabled at IRQ 4 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:00:0a.0[A] -> GSI 4 (level, low) -> IRQ 4 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:00:0d.0[A] -> GSI 3 (level, low) -> IRQ 3 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKB] enabled at IRQ 10 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:00:11.0[A] -> GSI 10 (level, low) -> IRQ 10 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKA] enabled at IRQ 11 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:01:00.0[A] -> GSI 11 (level, low) -> IRQ 11 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Simple Boot Flag at 0x3a set to 0x1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: apm: BIOS version 1.2 Flags 0x03 (Driver version 1.16ac) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: apm: overridden by ACPI. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: audit: initializing netlink socket (disabled) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: audit(1100866315.375:0): initialized Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Total HugeTLB memory allocated, 0 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: VFS: Disk quotas dquot_6.5.1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Dquot-cache hash table entries: 1024 (order 0, 4096 bytes) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Initializing Cryptographic API Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ksign: Installing public key data Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Loading keyring Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: - Added public key 4038885F7ECB019F Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: - User ID: Red Hat, Inc. (Kernel Module GPG key) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Applying VIA southbridge workaround. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: pci_hotplug: PCI Hot Plug PCI Core version: 0.5 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: vesafb: probe of vesafb0 failed with error -6 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: Processor [CPU0] (supports C1 C2, 16 throttling states) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards... Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: isapnp: No Plug & Play device found Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Real Time Clock Driver v1.12 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: serio: i8042 AUX port at 0x60,0x64 irq 12 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: serio: i8042 KBD port at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Serial: 8250/16550 driver $Revision: 1.90 $ 8 ports, IRQ sharing enabled Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: RAMDISK driver initialized: 16 RAM disks of 16384K size 1024 blocksize Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Uniform Multi-Platform E-IDE driver Revision: 7.00alpha2 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ide: Assuming 33MHz system bus speed for PIO modes; override with idebus=xx Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: VP_IDE: IDE controller at PCI slot 0000:00:04.1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: VP_IDE: chipset revision 6 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: VP_IDE: not 100%% native mode: will probe irqs later Nov 19 12:12:27 client rpc.statd[1906]: Version 1.0.6 Starting Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: VP_IDE: VIA vt82c686b (rev 40) IDE UDMA100 controller on pci0000:00:04.1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ide0: BM-DMA at 0xd800-0xd807, BIOS settings: hda:DMA, hdb:pio Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ide1: BM-DMA at 0xd808-0xd80f, BIOS settings: hdc:pio, hdd:pio Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: hda: ST3120022A, ATA DISK drive Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Using cfq io scheduler Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ide0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6 on irq 14 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: hdc: FX320S, ATAPI CD/DVD-ROM drive Nov 19 12:12:27 client nfslock: Starten von rpc.statd succeeded Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ide1 at 0x170-0x177,0x376 on irq 15 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: hda: max request size: 1024KiB Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: hda: 234441648 sectors (120034 MB) w/2048KiB Cache, CHS=16383/255/63, UDMA(100) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: hda: hda1 hda2 < hda5 hda6 hda7 hda8 hda9 hda10 hda11 > Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: hdc: ATAPI 32X CD-ROM drive, 256kB Cache, DMA Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Uniform CD-ROM driver Revision: 3.20 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: usbcore: registered new driver hiddev Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: usbcore: registered new driver usbhid Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: drivers/usb/input/hid-core.c: v2.0:USB HID core driver Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: input: AT Translated Set 2 keyboard on isa0060/serio0 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: input: ImPS/2 Generic Wheel Mouse on isa0060/serio1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: md: md driver 0.90.0 MAX_MD_DEVS=256, MD_SB_DISKS=27 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: NET: Registered protocol family 2 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: IP: routing cache hash table of 4096 buckets, 32Kbytes Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: TCP: Hash tables configured (established 32768 bind 65536) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Initializing IPsec netlink socket Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: NET: Registered protocol family 1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: NET: Registered protocol family 17 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: (supports S0 S1 S3 S4 S5) Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI wakeup devices: Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: PWRB PCI0 USB0 USB1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Freeing unused kernel memory: 128k freed Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: kjournald starting. Commit interval 5 seconds Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: EXT3-fs: mounted filesystem with ordered data mode. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: inserting floppy driver for 2.6.9-1.678_FC3.root Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Floppy drive(s): fd0 is 1.44M Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: FDC 0 is a post-1991 82077 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:00:0a.0[A] -> GSI 4 (level, low) -> IRQ 4 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: 3c59x: Donald Becker and others. www.scyld.com/network/vortex.html Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: 0000:00:0a.0: 3Com PCI 3c905C Tornado at 0xa400. Vers LK1.1.19 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:00:0d.0[A] -> GSI 3 (level, low) -> IRQ 3 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: gameport: pci0000:00:0d.1 speed 1242 kHz Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: parport0: PC-style at 0x378 (0x778) [PCSPP,TRISTATE] Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: parport_pc: Via 686A parallel port: io=0x378 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: USB Universal Host Controller Interface driver v2.2 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:00:04.2[D] -> GSI 3 (level, low) -> IRQ 3 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:04.2: UHCI Host Controller Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:04.2: irq 3, io base 0000d400 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:04.2: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: hub 1-0:1.0: USB hub found Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: hub 1-0:1.0: 2 ports detected Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:00:04.3[D] -> GSI 3 (level, low) -> IRQ 3 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:04.3: UHCI Host Controller Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:04.3: irq 3, io base 0000d000 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:04.3: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 2 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: hub 2-0:1.0: USB hub found Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: hub 2-0:1.0: 2 ports detected Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: md: Autodetecting RAID arrays. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: md: autorun ... Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: md: ... autorun DONE. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: nvidia: module license 'NVIDIA' taints kernel. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:01:00.0[A] -> GSI 11 (level, low) -> IRQ 11 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: NVRM: loading NVIDIA Linux x86 NVIDIA Kernel Module 1.0-6629 Wed Nov 3 13:12:51 PST 2004 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ACPI: Power Button (FF) [PWRF] Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: EXT3 FS on hda5, internal journal Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: device-mapper: 4.1.0-ioctl (2003-12-10) initialised: dm at uk.sistina.com Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: cdrom: open failed. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: NTFS driver 2.1.20 [Flags: R/O MODULE]. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: NTFS-fs warning (device hda11): parse_options(): Option iocharset is deprecated. Please use option nls= in the future. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: NTFS volume version 3.1. Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: Adding 626492k swap on /dev/hda6. Priority:-1 extents:1 Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ip_tables: (C) 2000-2002 Netfilter core team Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: ip_conntrack version 2.1 (4095 buckets, 32760 max) - 332 bytes per conntrack Nov 19 12:12:27 client rpcidmapd: Starten von rpc.idmapd succeeded Nov 19 12:12:27 client netfs: NFS-Dateisysteme einh?ngen: succeeded Nov 19 12:12:27 client netfs: Andere Dateisysteme einh?ngen: succeeded Nov 19 12:12:27 client kernel: i2c /dev entries driver Nov 19 12:12:27 client rc: lm_sensors starten: succeeded Nov 19 12:12:28 client sshd: succeeded Nov 19 12:12:28 client sendmail: Starten von sendmail succeeded Nov 19 12:12:28 client sendmail: Starten von sm-client succeeded Nov 19 12:12:28 client crond: Starten von crond succeeded Nov 19 12:12:24 client iptables: succeeded Nov 19 12:12:24 client sysctl: net.ipv4.ip_forward = 0 Nov 19 12:12:24 client sysctl: net.ipv4.conf.default.rp_filter = 1 Nov 19 12:12:24 client sysctl: net.ipv4.conf.default.accept_source_route = 0 Nov 19 12:12:24 client sysctl: kernel.core_uses_pid = 1 Nov 19 12:12:24 client network: Netzwerkparameter einstellen: succeeded Nov 19 12:12:24 client network: Loopback Schnittstelle hochfahren: succeeded Nov 19 12:12:29 client xfs: Starten von xfs succeeded Nov 19 12:12:29 client anacron: Starten von anacron succeeded Nov 19 12:12:29 client xfs[2074]: ignoring font path element /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Speedo (unreadable) Nov 19 12:12:29 client atd: Starten von atd succeeded Nov 19 12:12:29 client readahead: Hintergrund-readahead starten: Nov 19 12:12:29 client rc: readahead starten: succeeded Nov 19 12:12:29 client messagebus: Starten von messagebus succeeded Nov 19 12:12:30 client haldaemon: Starten von haldaemon succeeded Nov 19 12:12:32 client fstab-sync[2561]: removed all generated mount points Nov 19 12:12:34 client fstab-sync[2687]: added mount point /media/cdrom for /dev/hdc Nov 19 12:12:36 client fstab-sync[2772]: added mount point /media/floppy for /dev/fd0 Nov 19 12:12:37 client gdm-autologin(pam_unix)[2577]: session opened for user frank by (uid=0) Nov 19 12:12:40 client gconfd (frank-2840): (Version 2.8.1) wird gestartet, Prozesskennung 2840, Benutzer ?frank? Nov 19 12:12:40 client gconfd (frank-2840): Die Adresse ?xml:readonly:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory? wurde an der Position 0 zu einer nur lesbaren Konfigurationsquelle aufgel?st Nov 19 12:12:40 client gconfd (frank-2840): Die Adresse ?xml:readwrite:/home/frank/.gconf? wurde an der Position 1 zu einer schreibbaren Konfigurationsquelle aufgel?st Nov 19 12:12:40 client gconfd (frank-2840): Die Adresse ?xml:readonly:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults? wurde an der Position 2 zu einer nur lesbaren Konfigurationsquelle aufgel?st From arjanv at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 11:47:13 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:47:13 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <1100864833.2814.28.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 12:43 +0100, Frank wrote: > installed thew latest NVidia Driver and removed the AGP Drivers > completly in the Kernel .config with make menuconfig you have to keep in mind that we build AGP in for a reason. It is for *correct operation* of systems. AGP shouldn't be modular at all! (this has to do with resource management; AGP has a range of memory in use, and the agp code will inform the rest of the kernel about this. But if you do it as module this may well be too late). > Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Modules linked in: nvidia(U) vmnet(U) > vmmon(U) oh boy.. vmware AND nvidia... better go to the respective vendor forums since there sure isn't anything we can do -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From lfarkas at bppiac.hu Fri Nov 19 11:48:09 2004 From: lfarkas at bppiac.hu (Farkas Levente) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:48:09 +0100 Subject: vmware and udev Message-ID: <419DDD79.2000204@bppiac.hu> hi, every boot i've got a few hunder (!) of such messages from vmware. is there any workaround? after i did this as i read in the bugzilla: cp -rp /dev/vm* /etc/udev/devices/ yours. ------------------------------------------ Nov 19 11:57:34 garfield wait_for_sysfs[2407]: either wait_for_sysfs (udev 039) needs an update to handle the device '/class/vmnet/vmnet0' properly (no device symlink) or the sysfs-support of your device's driver needs to be fixed, please report to Nov 19 11:57:34 garfield wait_for_sysfs[2409]: either wait_for_sysfs (udev 039) needs an update to handle the device '/class/vmnet/vmnet1' properly (no device symlink) or the sysfs-support of your device's driver needs to be fixed, please report to Nov 19 11:57:34 garfield wait_for_sysfs[2411]: either wait_for_sysfs (udev 039) needs an update to handle the device '/class/vmnet/vmnet2' properly (no device symlink) or the sysfs-support of your device's driver needs to be fixed, please report to Nov 19 11:57:34 garfield wait_for_sysfs[2413]: either wait_for_sysfs (udev 039) needs an update to handle the device '/class/vmnet/vmnet3' properly (no device symlink) or the sysfs-support of your device's driver needs to be fixed, please report to ------------------------------------------ -- Levente "Si vis pacem para bellum!" From ellson at research.att.com Fri Nov 19 12:07:12 2004 From: ellson at research.att.com (John Ellson) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:07:12 -0500 Subject: general question about lazy loading of shared libraries In-Reply-To: <1100851201.2814.12.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <200411182345.iAINjF9r005091@magilla.sf.frob.com> <1100825035.8513.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419D472C.3090401@research.att.com> <1100851201.2814.12.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <419DE1F0.5040404@research.att.com> Arjan van de Ven wrote: >On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 20:06 -0500, John Ellson wrote: > > >>>I don't know an easy way to tell exactly what pages of the libraries >>>you are using are touched and thus read off disk at start up... and it's >>>not even a well defined question - you can't tell if a page was >>>read because of your app or because of another app. >>> >>> > >but you can tell which pages are in memory at least. If people want I >can code a small app for this > > Don't go out of your way, but if you have some snippets of code I can look at it would be appreciated. >>I'm working on Graphviz graph layout tools that support multiple >>renderers. >> >> > >that kind of sounds like a plugin situation, for which dlopen is quite >suitable. > > Well, yes, thats the direction I was headed in, but I'm wondering if the performance payoff is going to be worth the effort of hand coding the dlopen plugin support? If lazy loading, or deferred mmapping into virtual memory, is implemented well then why bother with plugins? (Separate compilation is marginally attractive, but performance is king.) >>Does the deferred paging depend on prelinking having been performed? >> >> > >no that happens always (even with the main binary btw); the difference >prelink makes is that without prelink you need to touch (and thus load) >more pages even if you don't use the library, for relocations. > > So if I understand, deferred paging doesn't depend on prelinking, but if I am going to try to measure avoided-page-loads then I should make sure that prelinking has been done? John From arjanv at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 12:16:34 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:16:34 +0100 Subject: general question about lazy loading of shared libraries In-Reply-To: <419DE1F0.5040404@research.att.com> References: <200411182345.iAINjF9r005091@magilla.sf.frob.com> <1100825035.8513.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419D472C.3090401@research.att.com> <1100851201.2814.12.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419DE1F0.5040404@research.att.com> Message-ID: <20041119121634.GC688@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 07:07:12AM -0500, John Ellson wrote: > >but you can tell which pages are in memory at least. If people want I > >can code a small app for this > > > > > Don't go out of your way, but if you have some snippets of code I can > look at it would be appreciated. basically you want to use the mincore() syscall; it will tell you which parts of the file are in memory (you need to mmap it first). Note that this gives the status of the kernel page cache; so if you want a honest measurement you need to somehow clear that cache first (for example by unmounting + remounting the fs the library is on) > >no that happens always (even with the main binary btw); the difference > >prelink makes is that without prelink you need to touch (and thus load) > >more pages even if you don't use the library, for relocations. > > > > > So if I understand, deferred paging doesn't depend on prelinking, but if > I am going to try to measure > avoided-page-loads then I should make sure that prelinking has been done? I'd recommend that yes; you get a more "honest" answer since prelink is on by default in basically all modern distributions From alan at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 12:45:11 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:45:11 -0500 Subject: Cardbus problems on HP zv5000z In-Reply-To: <1100846391.31019.19.camel@zontar.fnordora.org> References: <1100846391.31019.19.camel@zontar.fnordora.org> Message-ID: <20041119124511.GC31197@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 10:39:51PM -0800, Alan wrote: > I have an HP zv5000z laptop. It has an AMD64 3700+ running FC3. > Using the supplied kernel cardbus does not work. > Using this patch (attached) cardbus works fine. Please send the patch upstream > What does it take to get this added to the Fedora kernels so I don't > have to rebuild every kernel upgrade? Get it into the base kernel. It looks fairly sensible. Must try that on a misbehaving Dell Alan From buildsys at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 12:53:04 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:53:04 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041119 changes Message-ID: <200411191253.iAJCr4Q30495@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: bash-3.0-24 ----------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Tim Waugh 3.0-24 - Use upstream patch to fix bug #139575 and bug #139306. * Thu Nov 18 2004 Tim Waugh 3.0-23 - Fixed last patch to avoid regressions (bug #139575). file-4.10-3 ----------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Radek Vokal 4.10-3 - set of patches from debian.org - new magic types (#128763) - zlib added to BuildReq (#125294) * Tue Oct 12 2004 Tim Waugh 4.10-2 - Fixed occasional segfault (bug #131892). * Wed Aug 11 2004 Radek Vokal - zlib patch deleted, note patch deleted, rh patch updated, debian patch updated - upgrade to file-4.10 grep-2.5.1-40 ------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Tim Waugh 2.5.1-40 - Fixed a bug in the fgrep patch, exposed by the dfa-optional patch (bug #138558). httpd-2.0.52-6 -------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Joe Orton 2.0.52-6 - add security fix for CVE CAN-2004-0942 (memory consumption DoS) - SELinux: run httpd -t under runcon in configtest (Steven Smalley) - fix SSLSessionCache comment for distcache in ssl.conf - restart using SIGHUP not SIGUSR1 after logrotate - add ap_save_brigade fix (upstream #31247) - mod_ssl: fix possible segfault in auth hook (upstream #31848) - add htsslpass(1) and configure as default SSLPassPhraseDialog (#128677) - apachectl: restore use of $OPTIONS - apachectl, httpd.init: refuse to restart if $HTTPD -t fails - apachectl: run $HTTPD -t in user SELinux context for configtest - update for pcre-5.0 header locations isdn4k-utils-3.2-19 ------------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Than Ngo 3.2-19 - update cvs snapshot - workaround, add capi devices kdebindings-3.3.1-3 ------------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Than Ngo 3.3.1-3 - rebuilt against python 2.4 * Mon Oct 18 2004 Than Ngo 3.3.1-2 - rebuilt libselinux-1.19.1-6 ------------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19.1-6 - Add avcstat program man-pages-ja-20041115-1 ----------------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Akira TAGOH - 20041115-1 - updates to 20041115. mod_python-3.1.3-7 ------------------ * Thu Nov 18 2004 Joe Orton 3.1.3-7 - require python-abi * Thu Nov 18 2004 Joe Orton 3.1.3-6 - rebuild for Python 2.4 pcre-5.0-2 ---------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Joe Orton 5.0-2 - include LICENCE, AUTHORS in docdir - run make check - move %configure to %build * Thu Nov 18 2004 Than Ngo 5.0-1 - update to 5.0 - change License: BSD - fix header location #64248 perl-DBD-MySQL-2.9004-1 ----------------------- policycoreutils-1.18.1-3 ------------------------ * Thu Nov 18 2004 Dan Walsh 1.18.1-3 - Fix run_init.8 to refer to correct location of initrc_context rdesktop-1.3.1-6 ---------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Than Ngo 1.3.1-6 - add cvs patch to make krdc working again rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041119 --------------------------- selinux-doc-1.15.1-1 -------------------- * Wed Jun 30 2004 Dan Walsh 1.15-1 - Upgrade to match NSA - Change installation directory to follow standards selinux-policy-strict-1.19.2-1 ------------------------------ * Thu Nov 18 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-2-1 - Upgrade to upstream selinux-policy-targeted-1.19.2-1 -------------------------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-2-1 - Upgrade to upstream setup-2.5.38-1 -------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Bill Nottingham 2.5.38-1 - fix bash/tcsh coredump size inconsistency (#139821) system-config-users-1.2.28-1 ---------------------------- * Wed Nov 10 2004 Nils Philippsen - 1.2.28-1 - check for running processes of a user about to be deleted (#132902) vnc-4.0-9 --------- * Wed Nov 17 2004 Tim Waugh 4.0-9 - Don't build hw/xfree86/etc. - Prevent xorg-x11 build failure in rman. - Build requires autoconf, flex, bison. - Use correct PATH setting when started from initscript (bug #84167). webalizer-2.01_10-26 -------------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Joe Orton 2.0_10-26 - rebuild From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 19 12:57:17 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:57:17 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1100864833.2814.28.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100864833.2814.28.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041119125316.4F32C765AF@mail.figaro.fr> > > installed thew latest NVidia Driver and removed the AGP Drivers > > completly in the Kernel .config with make menuconfig > > you have to keep in mind that we build AGP in for a reason. It is for > *correct operation* of systems. AGP shouldn't be modular at all! > (this has to do with resource management; AGP has a range of memory in > use, and the agp code will inform the rest of the kernel about this. But > if you do it as module this may well be too late). I doesnt got build it as module .. i removed it So i use the Vendor (NVidia) AGP as i wrote in my last message - "mon General" > > Nov 19 12:11:14 client kernel: Modules linked in: nvidia(U) vmnet(U) > > vmmon(U) > > oh boy.. vmware AND nvidia... better go to the respective vendor forums > since there sure isn't anything we can do Thankx Greetings Frank From arjanv at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 12:53:56 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:53:56 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041119125316.4F32C765AF@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100864833.2814.28.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041119125316.4F32C765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <20041119125356.GA15067@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 01:57:17PM +0100, Frank wrote: > > > installed thew latest NVidia Driver and removed the AGP Drivers > > > completly in the Kernel .config with make menuconfig > > > > you have to keep in mind that we build AGP in for a reason. It is for > > *correct operation* of systems. AGP shouldn't be modular at all! > > (this has to do with resource management; AGP has a range of memory in > > use, and the agp code will inform the rest of the kernel about this. But > > if you do it as module this may well be too late). > > I doesnt got build it as module .. i removed it that is even worse... From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 19 13:05:16 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:05:16 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041119125356.GA15067@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100864833.2814.28.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041119125316.4F32C765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041119125356.GA15067@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041119130115.2AC15765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Hallo, > > I doesnt got build it as module .. i removed it > > that is even worse... > cat /proc/driver/nvidia/agp/status Status: Enabled Driver: NVIDIA It works .. the rivafb i had to remove as well it only segfaults on reboot for unkown Reasons Greetings Frank From loony at loonybin.org Fri Nov 19 13:10:13 2004 From: loony at loonybin.org (Peter Arremann) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:10:13 -0500 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> On Friday 19 November 2004 06:43, Frank wrote: > installed thew latest NVidia Driver and removed the AGP Drivers > completly in the Kernel .config with make menuconfig > > Now, i can use the NVidia AGP Driver with Option "NvAGP" "1" > > Here some call traces, found after it successfully bootet up in messages Go back to the nv driver for right now - nvidia is just not stable right now. The guys at nvidia know about that and are working on it - or so I was told at least... Their discussion forum lists a few threads with this issue as well as a "solution" http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=171843572cd91ab707da967be2cb1484&t=40622 - but that you can easily tell from the posts doesn't work for everyone... Wow - 2 hours of sleep and I can still type, Peter. From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 19 13:23:17 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:23:17 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> Message-ID: <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Hallo Peter, > On Friday 19 November 2004 06:43, Frank wrote: > > installed thew latest NVidia Driver and removed the AGP Drivers > > completly in the Kernel .config with make menuconfig > > > > Now, i can use the NVidia AGP Driver with Option "NvAGP" "1" > > > > Here some call traces, found after it successfully bootet up in messages > > Go back to the nv driver for right now - nvidia is just not stable right now. > The guys at nvidia know about that and are working on it - or so I was told > at least... Their discussion forum lists a few threads with this issue as > well as a "solution" > http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=171843572cd91ab707da967be2cb1484&t=40622 > - but that you can easily tell from the posts doesn't work for everyone... > > Wow - 2 hours of sleep and I can still type, I have to recommend a Hut full with shuteye :) a short Question maybe ... if i remove the rhgb Thing in my grub.conf -- evrything works very well es expected. So, where is the Problem exactly ... NVidia or still Fedora personally i love the nice Bootup Screen from Fedora and i dont want to miss him. Greetings Frank From arjanv at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 13:53:32 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:53:32 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041119130115.2AC15765AF@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100864833.2814.28.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041119125316.4F32C765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041119125356.GA15067@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041119130115.2AC15765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <1100872411.2814.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 14:05 +0100, Frank wrote: > Hallo, > > > > I doesnt got build it as module .. i removed it > > > > that is even worse... > > > > cat /proc/driver/nvidia/agp/status > Status: Enabled > Driver: NVIDIA > > > It works .. ... until you find out that the resource issue is causing a few random kernel pages to suddely be corrupted... Oh well it's your data ;) (and "it works" is way overstated given all the oopses you showed) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From chapmam2 at ocps.k12.fl.us Fri Nov 19 14:02:40 2004 From: chapmam2 at ocps.k12.fl.us (Chapman, Matthew) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:02:40 -0500 Subject: yum update problems on fc3 Message-ID: Any ideas on how to fix this? It happens everytime I run yum update now. Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/bin/yum", line 8, in ? yummain.main(sys.argv[1:]) File "/usr/share/yum-cli/yummain.py", line 51, in main base.getOptionsConfig(args) File "/usr/share/yum-cli/cli.py", line 133, in getOptionsConfig self.conf = yumconf(configfile = yumconffile, root=root) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/yum/config.py", line 227, in __init__ self._doFileRepo(fn) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/yum/config.py", line 299, in _doFileRep o doRepoSection(self, repoconf, section) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/yum/config.py", line 313, in doRepoSect ion mirrorurls = getMirrorList(mirrorlist) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/yum/config.py", line 390, in getMirrorL ist fo = urlresolver.urlopen(url) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/urlgrabber/grabber.py", line 427, in ur lopen return default_grabber.urlopen(url, **kwargs) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/urlgrabber/grabber.py", line 555, in ur lopen return self._retry(opts, retryfunc, url) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/urlgrabber/grabber.py", line 527, in _r etry return apply(func, (opts,) + args, {}) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/urlgrabber/grabber.py", line 554, in re tryfunc return URLGrabberFileObject(url, filename=None, opts=opts) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/urlgrabber/grabber.py", line 703, in __ init__ self._do_open() File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/urlgrabber/grabber.py", line 747, in _d o_open fo, hdr = self._make_request(req, opener) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/urlgrabber/grabber.py", line 823, in _m ake_request fo = opener.open(req) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/urllib2.py", line 364, in open response = meth(req, response) File "/usr/lib/python2.4/urllib2.py", line 468, in http_response code, msg, hdrs = response.code, response.msg, response.info() AttributeError: HTTPResponse instance has no attribute 'code' Thanks, Matt Chapman -- Matthew Chapman Network Engineer Orange County Public Schools "Hard work, sacrifice and focus will never show up in tests." - Lance Armstrong -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Fri Nov 19 14:14:51 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:14:51 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. Bill Nottingham wrote: > Ah, ok, that has the kmodule fix. What exactly does kmodule do, anyway? I know it spits out a list of kernel modules to be loaded, together with the type, but how does it come up with the list? -- "It is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." -- Silvan Engel From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Nov 19 14:20:52 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:20:52 -0500 Subject: yum update problems on fc3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100874053.3349.1.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 09:02 -0500, Chapman, Matthew wrote: > Any ideas on how to fix this? It happens everytime I run yum update > now. two ways: 1. read bugzilla. Bug #138535 2. stop using rawhide. -sv From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 19 14:35:53 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:35:53 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1100872411.2814.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100864833.2814.28.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041119125316.4F32C765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041119125356.GA15067@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041119130115.2AC15765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100872411.2814.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041119143153.743DA765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Arjan van de Ven: > (and "it works" is way overstated given all the oopses you showed) this is correct, unfortunately since lets say 2 Years, with RedHat 7.3 until now - This is why i post the issue here and the other man on the NVidia List maybe too anyway Thank you Arjan Greetings Frank From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Nov 19 14:43:29 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:43:29 -0500 Subject: Finding the "best" mirror In-Reply-To: <1100852955.2814.17.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <20041118152603.GA25269@lisas.de> <20041118164349.432b2c43.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <1100850062.5163.17.camel@cutter> <1100852955.2814.17.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1100875409.3349.5.camel@cutter> > hmmm measuring during the times the net is quiet sounds evil... also > loading a bunch of mirrors all the time just to measure bw sounds like > it won't scale well with the number of people doing it. > > I wonder if yum could do a reverse dns lookup, and then do a > right-to-left matching trick on the name vs the mirrors (perhaps > excepting .com/.net/.org); that way for me, I get at least mirrors in > .nl, and if my ISP's mirror gets into the mirror list, I'll always get > that one. > > Well maybe it needs a few tricks, like traceroute to somewhere with a > TTL of 4, and use some of the intermediate machines for the matching as > well (and have the same info available for each mirror) so that you stay > within the same upstream bandwidth provider etc etc The above is why I suggested doing this in a secondary script and not in yum. It would be a mess to put that code _in_ yum. But if someone wanted to write a generic mirror tester then lots of things could use it. -sv From lightingisfun at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 15:20:15 2004 From: lightingisfun at gmail.com (David Corrigan) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:20:15 -0800 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <7248933a04111907202113d68e@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I just ran it and the output seems to be a list of the ports installed on a computer. Here is the output and what it is: NETWORK sis900 Network card AUDIO snd-intel8x0 Sound Card HD usb-storage 5 in 1 reader? CAPTURE snd-bt87x TV tuner card - audio CAPTURE bttv TV tuner card - video USB ehci-hcd USB port USB uhci-hcd USB port USB uhci-hcd USB port USB ohci-hcd USB port USB ohci-hcd USB port FIREWIRE ohci1394 Firewire card It doesn't seem to list stuff like the parallel and serial ports. David On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:14:51 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > Hi. > > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > Ah, ok, that has the kmodule fix. > > What exactly does kmodule do, anyway? I know it spits out a list of > kernel modules to be loaded, together with the type, but how does it > come up with the list? > > -- > "It is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove > all doubt." -- Silvan Engel > > > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From u.lehmann at de.tecosim.com Fri Nov 19 16:34:01 2004 From: u.lehmann at de.tecosim.com (Utz Lehmann) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:34:01 +0100 Subject: exec-shield broken in newer kernels? Message-ID: <20041119163401.GA3715@de.tecosim.com> Hi I just noticed that exec-shield looks broken in newer kernels. All test are on i686 with disabled prelinking and kernel.exec-shield = 1 kernel.exec-shield-randomize = 1 vm.legacy_va_layout = 0 A cat /proc/self/maps looks like this: 2.6.8-1.521smp (FC 2): 00cbf000-00cd4000 r-xp 00000000 03:02 327682 /lib/ld-2.3.3.so 00cd4000-00cd5000 r--p 00014000 03:02 327682 /lib/ld-2.3.3.so 00cd5000-00cd6000 rw-p 00015000 03:02 327682 /lib/ld-2.3.3.so 00dad000-00ec3000 r-xp 00000000 03:02 229387 /lib/tls/libc-2.3.3.so 00ec3000-00ec4000 r--p 00116000 03:02 229387 /lib/tls/libc-2.3.3.so 00ec4000-00ec7000 rw-p 00117000 03:02 229387 /lib/tls/libc-2.3.3.so 00ec7000-00ec9000 rw-p 00ec7000 00:00 0 08048000-0804c000 r-xp 00000000 03:02 459964 /bin/cat 0804c000-0804d000 rw-p 00003000 03:02 459964 /bin/cat 09dc8000-09de9000 rw-p 09dc8000 00:00 0 f6dc4000-f6dc5000 r--p 00b1e000 03:02 475909 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive f6dc5000-f6df8000 r--p 00aea000 03:02 475909 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive f6df8000-f6ff8000 r--p 00000000 03:02 475909 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive f6ff8000-f6ff9000 rw-p f6ff8000 00:00 0 feee0000-ff000000 rw-p feee0000 00:00 0 ffffd000-ffffe000 ---p 00000000 00:00 0 This is the familiar behavior. Only the exec mapping have the x bit and they are randomized. The shared libs are placed under the binary. 2.6.9-1.667smp (FC 3): 00111000-00112000 r-xp 00a46000 03:01 640087 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive 00112000-00113000 r-xp 00a99000 03:01 640087 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive 002ef000-00304000 r-xp 00000000 03:01 704213 /lib/ld-2.3.3.so 00304000-00305000 r-xp 00014000 03:01 704213 /lib/ld-2.3.3.so 00305000-00306000 rwxp 00015000 03:01 704213 /lib/ld-2.3.3.so 00485000-00685000 r-xp 00000000 03:01 640087 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive 0079c000-008bd000 r-xp 00000000 03:01 704943 /lib/tls/libc-2.3.3.so 008bd000-008bf000 r-xp 00120000 03:01 704943 /lib/tls/libc-2.3.3.so 008bf000-008c1000 rwxp 00122000 03:01 704943 /lib/tls/libc-2.3.3.so 008c1000-008c3000 rwxp 008c1000 00:00 0 009e8000-009e9000 rwxp 009e8000 00:00 0 00d8b000-00dbd000 r-xp 00a12000 03:01 640087 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive 00f85000-00fb9000 r-xp 00a64000 03:01 640087 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive 08048000-0804c000 r-xp 00000000 03:01 441615 /bin/cat 0804c000-0804d000 rwxp 00003000 03:01 441615 /bin/cat 0804d000-0806e000 rwxp 0804d000 00:00 0 feffe000-ff000000 rw-p feffe000 00:00 0 ffffe000-fffff000 ---p 00000000 00:00 0 Here all mappings except the stack have the x bit and they are randomized. I think this will cause that the local-archive mappings are placed under the binary too. 2.6.9-1.678_FC3 (FC 3): 08048000-0804c000 r-xp 00000000 03:01 6296799 /bin/cat 0804c000-0804d000 rwxp 00003000 03:01 6296799 /bin/cat 0804d000-0806e000 rwxp 0804d000 00:00 0 f6c37000-f6c38000 r-xp 00b71000 03:01 27280385 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive f6c38000-f6c6c000 r-xp 00b3c000 03:01 27280385 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive f6c6c000-f6c6d000 r-xp 00b1e000 03:01 27280385 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive f6c6d000-f6c9f000 r-xp 00aea000 03:01 27280385 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive f6c9f000-f6e9f000 r-xp 00000000 03:01 27280385 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive f6e9f000-f6ea0000 rwxp f6e9f000 00:00 0 f6ea0000-f6fc1000 r-xp 00000000 03:01 31481922 /lib/tls/libc-2.3.3.so f6fc1000-f6fc3000 r-xp 00120000 03:01 31481922 /lib/tls/libc-2.3.3.so f6fc3000-f6fc5000 rwxp 00122000 03:01 31481922 /lib/tls/libc-2.3.3.so f6fc5000-f6fc7000 rwxp f6fc5000 00:00 0 f6fe9000-f6ffe000 r-xp 00000000 03:01 16798526 /lib/ld-2.3.3.so f6ffe000-f6fff000 r-xp 00014000 03:01 16798526 /lib/ld-2.3.3.so f6fff000-f7000000 rwxp 00015000 03:01 16798526 /lib/ld-2.3.3.so feffe000-ff000000 rw-p feffe000 00:00 0 ffffe000-fffff000 ---p 00000000 00:00 0 Here all mappings including the executable mapping are placed top down. Only the stack doesn't have the x bit and there is no randomization at all. I think here is exec-shield mostly not working (except the non-exec stack). With a segment based executable protection (no NX bit) the addressspace is up to 0xf7000000 executable. utz From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Fri Nov 19 16:40:09 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:40:09 +0100 Subject: exec-shield broken in newer kernels? In-Reply-To: <20041119163401.GA3715@de.tecosim.com> References: <20041119163401.GA3715@de.tecosim.com> Message-ID: <20041119174009.5525a2bf@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. Utz Lehmann wrote: > 2.6.9-1.678_FC3 (FC 3): Umm... is there a reason that FC3 updates has a newer kernel than devel? -- What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? From davej at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 16:54:21 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:54:21 -0500 Subject: exec-shield broken in newer kernels? In-Reply-To: <20041119174009.5525a2bf@nausicaa.camperquake.de> References: <20041119163401.GA3715@de.tecosim.com> <20041119174009.5525a2bf@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <20041119165421.GD3997@redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 05:40:09PM +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > Hi. > > Utz Lehmann wrote: > > > 2.6.9-1.678_FC3 (FC 3): > > Umm... is there a reason that FC3 updates has a newer kernel than > devel? Ignore the version numbers, they're irrelevant between the streams right now. Dave From ggw at wolves.durham.nc.us Fri Nov 19 17:11:08 2004 From: ggw at wolves.durham.nc.us (Gregory Woodbury) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:11:08 -0500 Subject: Missing boot.iso? Message-ID: <20041119171108.GA21416@wolves.durham.nc.us> I notice that boot.iso (and everything else) is missing from the images directory in development. Is this intentional, or is something broken? -- G.Wolfe Woodbury `- -' RHCT U The Line Eater is a boojum! From orion at cora.nwra.com Fri Nov 19 17:23:45 2004 From: orion at cora.nwra.com (Orion Poplawski) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:23:45 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Orion Poplawski Message-ID: <419E2C21.9030100@cora.nwra.com> Full Legal Name: Orion Edward Poplawski Country, City: USA, Boulder, CO Profession: System Administrator Company: Northwest Research Associates, CoRA division Goals: Integration of various tools for scientific computing and clustering. I currently maintain a modified Fedora distribution for in-house use. Packages I've worked on include: - octave-forge, updated octave - python-gmt - python-pyx - python-opendap - qhull - ScientificPython - hdf5 - ginac I also maintain updated versions of amanda, pam, ypbind, logwatch solely for internal use, but some changes I'd like to see upstream or more widely tested. Historical qualifications: My name is easily googled :-) and you'll turn up plenty of boring posts to various lists and newsgroups. I've submitted minor patches to various open source projects including PHP, and filed plenty of bug reports. I've been a Unix SysAdmin for just over 10 years, been programming for over 23 years. I'm proficient in C, Perl, PHP, (ba|k)sh, awk, sed. Familiar with C++, Fortran, IDL. pub 1024D/D142DBFB 2004-11-11 Orion Poplawski Key fingerprint = 5C5A A7EF B441 C533 C656 A9AC 3919 F3AE D142 DBFB sub 1024g/B7B050FE 2004-11-11 -- Orion Poplawski System Administrator 303-415-9701 x222 Colorado Research Associates/NWRA FAX: 303-415-9702 3380 Mitchell Lane, Boulder CO 80301 http://www.co-ra.com From mike at navi.cx Fri Nov 19 18:15:05 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:15:05 +0000 Subject: general question about lazy loading of shared libraries References: <200411182345.iAINjF9r005091@magilla.sf.frob.com> <1100825035.8513.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419D472C.3090401@research.att.com> <1100851201.2814.12.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419DE1F0.5040404@research.att.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:07:12 -0500, John Ellson wrote: > Well, yes, thats the direction I was headed in, but I'm wondering if the > performance payoff is going > to be worth the effort of hand coding the dlopen plugin support? You can use this program to make using dlopen trivial: http://cvs.sunsite.dk/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/autopackage/apbuild/relaytool At least it works for x86 and there is some basic code (untested) in there for PowerPC. I keep meaning to find somebodies Mac laptop to borrow and finish it off. Executive summary, you can write code like you normally would except that the library will be dlopened and the symbols linked automatically, eg: if (libfoo_is_present) { foo_bar(); } works. Obviously this is designed for the case where you want to be able to operate in the absence of a library rather than for when you have multiple libraries all implementing the same interface as you would have for a plugin solution. It makes depending on libraries in a soft fashion much more convenient though. If you don't already have a plugin abstraction in place this might be what you want. Hope that helps. thanks -mike From mr700 at mr700.cjb.net Fri Nov 19 18:45:40 2004 From: mr700 at mr700.cjb.net (Doncho N. Gunchev) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:45:40 +0200 Subject: FC2 repos for new yum In-Reply-To: <88FAAC171436FD10CB17EBD2@[10.169.6.246]> References: <88FAAC171436FD10CB17EBD2@[10.169.6.246]> Message-ID: <200411192045.41035@-mr700> On 2004-11-18 (Thursday) 19:48, Kenneth Porter wrote: > Any chance we'll see fedora-release-2 updated to enable use of the new yum > repository structure? It looks like the repository database is now part of > the release package, not part of yum. > Probably never. The idea has been explained - only fixes, no new features or versions (except when it is bugfix only release) to keep things stable. If you want new features - update to FC3, it's stable enough now. Correct me if I'm wrong. -- Regards, Doncho N. Gunchev Registered Linux User #291323 at counter.li.org GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/DA454F79 http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 684F 688B C508 C609 0371 5E0F A089 CB15 DA45 4F79 From mr700 at mr700.cjb.net Fri Nov 19 19:00:14 2004 From: mr700 at mr700.cjb.net (Doncho N. Gunchev) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 21:00:14 +0200 Subject: Finding the "best" mirror In-Reply-To: <1100852955.2814.17.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <20041118152603.GA25269@lisas.de> <1100850062.5163.17.camel@cutter> <1100852955.2814.17.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <200411192100.14878@-mr700> On 2004-11-19 (Friday) 10:29, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > I wonder if yum could do a reverse dns lookup, and then do a > right-to-left matching trick on the name vs the mirrors (perhaps > excepting .com/.net/.org); that way for me, I get at least mirrors in > .nl, and if my ISP's mirror gets into the mirror list, I'll always get > that one. > This method will not work in all cases (.edu, in Bulgaria the official mirror is http://mirrors.evrocom.net /high .bg domain tax/). What about using http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/ip2country/ip2country.py or similar solution? Or make a 'worldmap' file that can be used by yum to determinate the best mirror /f(MyIP, bandwidth, hops, rtt)/? BTW: how did you get this header, I mean your email inside? --- cut --- Reply-To: arjanv redhat com, Development discussions related to Fedora Core --- cut --- -- Regards, Doncho N. Gunchev Registered Linux User #291323 at counter.li.org GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/DA454F79 http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 684F 688B C508 C609 0371 5E0F A089 CB15 DA45 4F79 From denisleroy at yahoo.com Fri Nov 19 19:01:06 2004 From: denisleroy at yahoo.com (Denis Leroy) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:01:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: vmware and udev In-Reply-To: <419DDD79.2000204@bppiac.hu> Message-ID: <20041119190106.97741.qmail@web60701.mail.yahoo.com> You'll have to wait for the 2nd beta release of VMWare Workstation 5.0 (if you're on the beta program) which i've been told will contain udev support. Probably just a few weeks away... On a more general note, is there any sort of communications between Red Hat people (who have phones on their desk) and the very few companies that do groundbreaking linux support (Nvidia, VMWare, ...) as far as release schedules and support for new kernel features ? Just asking... -denis --- Farkas Levente wrote: > hi, > every boot i've got a few hunder (!) of such messages from vmware. is > > there any workaround? after i did this as i read in the bugzilla: > cp -rp /dev/vm* /etc/udev/devices/ > yours. > ------------------------------------------ > Nov 19 11:57:34 garfield wait_for_sysfs[2407]: either wait_for_sysfs > (udev 039) needs an update to handle the device '/class/vmnet/vmnet0' > > properly (no device symlink) or the sysfs-support of your device's > driver needs to be fixed, please report to > > Nov 19 11:57:34 garfield wait_for_sysfs[2409]: either wait_for_sysfs > (udev 039) needs an update to handle the device '/class/vmnet/vmnet1' > > properly (no device symlink) or the sysfs-support of your device's > driver needs to be fixed, please report to > > Nov 19 11:57:34 garfield wait_for_sysfs[2411]: either wait_for_sysfs > (udev 039) needs an update to handle the device '/class/vmnet/vmnet2' > > properly (no device symlink) or the sysfs-support of your device's > driver needs to be fixed, please report to > > Nov 19 11:57:34 garfield wait_for_sysfs[2413]: either wait_for_sysfs > (udev 039) needs an update to handle the device '/class/vmnet/vmnet3' > > properly (no device symlink) or the sysfs-support of your device's > driver needs to be fixed, please report to > > ------------------------------------------ > > > -- > Levente "Si vis pacem para bellum!" > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 19 18:58:24 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:58:24 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> fre, 19.11.2004 kl. 14.23 skrev Frank: > Hallo Peter, > > > > On Friday 19 November 2004 06:43, Frank wrote: > > > installed thew latest NVidia Driver and removed the AGP Drivers > > > completly in the Kernel .config with make menuconfig > > > > > > Now, i can use the NVidia AGP Driver with Option "NvAGP" "1" > > > > > > Here some call traces, found after it successfully bootet up in messages > > > > Go back to the nv driver for right now - nvidia is just not stable right now. > > The guys at nvidia know about that and are working on it - or so I was told > > at least... Their discussion forum lists a few threads with this issue as > > well as a "solution" > > http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=171843572cd91ab707da967be2cb1484&t=40622 > > - but that you can easily tell from the posts doesn't work for everyone... > > > > Wow - 2 hours of sleep and I can still type, > > I have to recommend a Hut full with shuteye :) > > a short Question maybe ... if i remove the rhgb Thing in my grub.conf -- > evrything works very well es expected. > > So, where is the Problem exactly ... NVidia or still Fedora > > personally i love the nice Bootup Screen from Fedora and i dont want to > miss him. > You can (somehow) use a different xorg.conf for the bootup screen and for GDM. So that the boot-screen may use the "nv" driver, and the main thing "nvidia". Why can't the rhgb come preconfigured to *always* use some safe settings - like "vesa" driver etc. From veguilla at hpcf.upr.edu Fri Nov 19 19:12:16 2004 From: veguilla at hpcf.upr.edu (Ricardo Veguilla) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:12:16 -0400 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 19:58 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > fre, 19.11.2004 kl. 14.23 skrev Frank: > > > > personally i love the nice Bootup Screen from Fedora and i dont want to > > miss him. > > > > You can (somehow) use a different xorg.conf for the bootup screen and > for GDM. So that the boot-screen may use the "nv" driver, and the main > thing "nvidia". > for rhgb: /etc/rhgb/xorg.conf for the main thing :) /etc/X11/xorg.conf Regards, -- Ricardo Veguilla From arjanv at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 19:29:42 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:29:42 +0100 Subject: vmware and udev In-Reply-To: <20041119190106.97741.qmail@web60701.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041119190106.97741.qmail@web60701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1100892582.2814.41.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> > On a more general note, is there any sort of communications between Red > Hat people (who have phones on their desk) and the very few companies > that do groundbreaking linux support (Nvidia, VMWare, ...) as far as > release schedules and support for new kernel features ? Just asking... what you call groundbreaking linux support... I personally consider a major problem... they are 1) Binary only, and not helping the open source goal at large forward 2) Borderline legal, if at all (my personal opinion is that they are not legal, and abusing code I wrote) 3) Lagging behind and even keeping the kernel from going forward at times. but.. if you buy a RHEL subscription the support guys you call will be happy to work with such vendors on joint problems. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 19 19:41:39 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:41:39 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> Message-ID: <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> fre, 19.11.2004 kl. 20.12 skrev Ricardo Veguilla: > On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 19:58 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > fre, 19.11.2004 kl. 14.23 skrev Frank: > > > > > > > personally i love the nice Bootup Screen from Fedora and i dont want to > > > miss him. > > > > > > > You can (somehow) use a different xorg.conf for the bootup screen and > > for GDM. So that the boot-screen may use the "nv" driver, and the main > > thing "nvidia". > > > > for rhgb: > /etc/rhgb/xorg.conf > > for the main thing :) > /etc/X11/xorg.conf > :) From walters at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 20:10:19 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:10:19 -0500 Subject: prelink issues Message-ID: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Hi, I'm a bit worried because we've been seeing a number of issues recently that seem to be related to prelink. For example, we've been looking at this bug today: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151307 Debugging this locally, we found that the hal daemon segfaulted very quickly on startup, dying inside libdbus. However, it worked inside valgrind. Havoc yesterday mentioned that if he re-prelinked libdbus, it worked. We were able to confirm that. A secondary issue is that we've occasionally seen shared libraries suddenly not having the right SELinux contexts: http://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=139860 This has come up on earlier on this list too: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg00526.html The hal/dbus issue appears to be reproducible on FC3+updates, but not with stock FC3. My guess is that letting prelink run on stock FC3 might cause this too, I'm about to check that. Has anyone else seen any odd issues with their packages that might be related to prelink? I wonder if there's a common thread here. From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Fri Nov 19 20:28:47 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 21:28:47 +0100 Subject: prelink issues In-Reply-To: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <20041119212847.7f63e38f.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:10:19 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > Has anyone else seen any odd issues with their packages that might be > related to prelink? I wonder if there's a common thread here. I've noticed users [in other message boards] who have had various applications and/or GNOME segfault until they started the prelink cron job file manually and let it complete. -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.678_FC3 loadavg: 0.61 0.68 0.45 From notting at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 20:44:15 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:44:15 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <20041119204414.GA29138@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Ralf Ertzinger (fedora-devel at camperquake.de) said: > > Ah, ok, that has the kmodule fix. > > What exactly does kmodule do, anyway? I know it spits out a list of > kernel modules to be loaded, together with the type, but how does it > come up with the list? It uses the same code that kudzu uses. Bill From shiva at sewingwitch.com Fri Nov 19 20:45:36 2004 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:45:36 -0800 Subject: FC2 repos for new yum In-Reply-To: <200411192045.41035@-mr700> References: <88FAAC171436FD10CB17EBD2@[10.169.6.246]> <200411192045.41035@-mr700> Message-ID: --On Friday, November 19, 2004 8:45 PM +0200 "Doncho N. Gunchev" wrote: > Probably never. The idea has been explained - only fixes, no new > features or versions (except when it is bugfix only release) to keep > things stable. If you want new features - update to FC3, it's stable > enough now. Ok. It looks like some mirrors do have the new repository metadata. I found it necessary to disable obsoletes in the new config file so my custom PHP and SpamAssassin installs don't get down-revved, and to install the RH GPG key from the main Fedora page, as checking signatures is now the default. I also found that --download-only has gone away, breaking my nightly download of updates. (I want to decide when they get installed, but I don't want to wait for them to download.) From jakub at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 20:59:32 2004 From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:59:32 -0500 Subject: prelink issues In-Reply-To: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <20041119205932.GC10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 03:10:19PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > The hal/dbus issue appears to be reproducible on FC3+updates, but not > with stock FC3. My guess is that letting prelink run on stock FC3 might > cause this too, I'm about to check that. If you are able to reproduce it, please create a tarball containing the binary and all its dependencies (do ldd on the binary and tar everything up). > Has anyone else seen any odd issues with their packages that might be > related to prelink? I wonder if there's a common thread here. Even if packages misbehave when prelinked and don't when not prelinked, there is no guarantee prelink is at fault. Prelink changes the memory layout of the application, so if certain library or binary e.g. has memory management bugs, it can show up only with certain memory layouts and not with others. Anyway, if you have a reproducer and tar up the binary, all libraries and whatever else is necessary for reproduction, that goes away if you unprelink the binary or its libraries, I'll certainly look at it. Jakub From fcatrin at tuxpan.com Fri Nov 19 21:22:50 2004 From: fcatrin at tuxpan.com (Franco Catrin) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:22:50 -0300 Subject: (boot improvement experiments) Re: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> Sorry to hang up on this part of the discussion, I've just subscribed fedora-devel because I knew there was a discussion about the boot time on Fedora. I was trying to improve the boot time with FC2 some weeks ago, and I got very interesting results. This is not directly related to the boot poster, it is just a trial and error work to improve FC2 boot time. My machine: P4-M 2.8Ghz HT 512MB RAM 4200RM hard disk drive (dell notebook, very slow compared to a desktop machine) Fedora Core 2 + updates Nvidia card with nvidia drivers Critical times for me: GDM: Time from GRUB until GDM gets ready to login an user GNOME: Time to load the whole gnome-session for the fist time EPIPHANY: Time to load epiphany for the fist time OPENOFFICE: Time to load any openoffice application for the fist time Original timings: - GDM: 75 seconds (more than 1 minute!) - GNOME: 41 seconds - EPIPHANY: 5 seconds - OPENOFFICE: 22 seconds Results: - GDM: 38 seconds (!!) - GNOME: 19 seconds - EPIPHANY: 2 seconds - OPENOFFICE: 5 seconds (!!) Bottlenecks I couldn't resolve: - IDE detection in the kernel - init start time - USB detection - nvidia driver probing for monitor/lcd/tv - gnome trying to load 1500 files (it seems to be resolved now with icon-cache, owen?) FC3 seems to be slower. I've just installed FC3 this week, and I really miss my old boot timings Method: Since I am the only one who uses this notebook, and it doesn't change the hardware, there are several things that doesn't need to be running, and several other things that doesn't need to be checked (quota for example) I've also changed the order of things that are started, for example there is no need to load httpd nor sshd before bringing gdm up. Gory details: - I disabled: - kudzu - rhgb - netfs - sendmail - I added "fastboot" option to the kernel. I saw that rc.sysinit use this flag to skip some things, I don't remember what exactly did at this time - I commented out every unneeded check by rc.sysinit on my machine (like quotas) - I prepared an readahead.early.files running strace -e trace=open on X and gdm - the fist thing that I put in rc.sysinit was an hdparm command the get the best of my slow disk - readahead.early.files is processed asynchronously with low priority as soon as possible (on top of rc.sysinit). It preloads X+gdm - I commented out the line that loads prefdm in iniitab, replacing it with a chkconfig script - I disabled "unix:" fonts in X, so xfs was disabled - the fisrt script to run runlevel 5 is the prefdm chkconfig script, I added "ifup lo" in before loading the real prefedm script - services like pcmcia, sshd, httpd, and others are loaded with low priority behinds the scenes, while x+gdm are starting. They ever load fine, so I don't need to see if they load or not. - I prepared a readahead.files running strace -e trace=open over gnome- session + gnome componentes (gnome-panel, gconfd and others). There I found all the icons loaded by gnome-panel (by the theme I suppose) - readahead is executed against readahead.files just after gdm is ready to accept a login. I did it measuring the time and adding a sleep command before running readahead (cof cof) - while the user (me) is entering the username and password, the gnome session is preloaded with readahead. - I prepared another readahead file running strace -e trace=open over openoffice and epiphany - I set up gnome-session-properties to run this readahead just after loading the gnome-session (priority 90 did the work) This approach doesn't make the system faster at all, but it seems faster to the user. The main trick is to change the order of loading the system components and preload the slowest applications. I don't think that this is applicable to the distribution as a whole, but I know that some things than can help on this type of customization and may be applied on Fedora 1. rc.sysinit could be modularized, so the user can disable/enable some bits of it without touching the script file. An easy way could be to move some part of it to chkconfig scripts 2. prefdm in inittab could be moved to a chkconfig script, and the order of services could be changed so prefdm could be started before starting services like httpd, sshd, and others 3. figure out a way to automate the generation of readahead files to match the most used files I know that Seth Nickell was working on 1 and 2, but I haven't heard of that again (SystemServices) I would be glad to help on improving Fedora boot time -- Franco Catrin L. TUXPAN http://www.tuxpan.com/fcatrin From walters at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 21:33:00 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:33:00 -0500 Subject: prelink issues In-Reply-To: <20041119205932.GC10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20041119205932.GC10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100899980.5454.34.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 15:59 -0500, Jakub Jelinek wrote: > On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 03:10:19PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > The hal/dbus issue appears to be reproducible on FC3+updates, but not > > with stock FC3. My guess is that letting prelink run on stock FC3 might > > cause this too, I'm about to check that. > > If you are able to reproduce it, please create a tarball containing > the binary and all its dependencies (do ldd on the binary and tar > everything up). I just tried a fresh FC3 install, ran prelink -a, didn't have any problem. I then installed all the FC3 updates, logged out and logged back in, no problem. (Except the latest FC3 kernel fails to boot on my machine, but that's another bug) > Even if packages misbehave when prelinked and don't when not prelinked, > there is no guarantee prelink is at fault. Right, I understand that. > Prelink changes the memory layout of the application, so if certain > library or binary e.g. has memory management bugs, it can show up > only with certain memory layouts and not with others. Ok. I'm a bit baffled as to why this should only show up now if that's what's happening though. I've gotten about 5-6 reports of this against eggucups upstream just in the last few days. > Anyway, if you have a reproducer and tar up the binary, all libraries > and whatever else is necessary for reproduction, that goes away > if you unprelink the binary or its libraries, I'll certainly look at > it. Will do. From jakub at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 21:36:43 2004 From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:36:43 -0500 Subject: prelink issues In-Reply-To: <1100899980.5454.34.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20041119205932.GC10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100899980.5454.34.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <20041119213642.GD10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 04:33:00PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > Anyway, if you have a reproducer and tar up the binary, all libraries > > and whatever else is necessary for reproduction, that goes away > > if you unprelink the binary or its libraries, I'll certainly look at > > it. > > Will do. Note that the important thing is to tar them up before unprelinking, if the bug goes away after unprelinking, when you prelink -u it is usually to late. tar chjf foo.tar.bz2 `LD_TRACE_PRELINKING=1 LD_WARN= /path/to/program | awk '{print $3}'` should do the job. Jakub From notting at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 21:56:12 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:56:12 -0500 Subject: (boot improvement experiments) Re: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> References: <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> Message-ID: <20041119215612.GA25848@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Franco Catrin (fcatrin at tuxpan.com) said: > 2. prefdm in inittab could be moved to a chkconfig script, and the order > of services could be changed so prefdm could be started before starting > services like httpd, sshd, and others This has interesting effects on the available VTs for use. Bill From nmiell at comcast.net Fri Nov 19 21:59:49 2004 From: nmiell at comcast.net (Nicholas Miell) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:59:49 -0800 Subject: prelink issues In-Reply-To: <20041119213642.GD10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20041119205932.GC10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100899980.5454.34.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20041119213642.GD10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100901589.4758.5.camel@entropy> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 16:36 -0500, Jakub Jelinek wrote: > On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 04:33:00PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > > Anyway, if you have a reproducer and tar up the binary, all libraries > > > and whatever else is necessary for reproduction, that goes away > > > if you unprelink the binary or its libraries, I'll certainly look at > > > it. > > > > Will do. > > Note that the important thing is to tar them up before unprelinking, > if the bug goes away after unprelinking, when you prelink -u it is > usually to late. > > tar chjf foo.tar.bz2 `LD_TRACE_PRELINKING=1 LD_WARN= /path/to/program | awk '{print $3}'` > > should do the job. > > Jakub wnck-applet was segfaulting immediately when I logged in to GNOME. After debugging, I discovered it was dying on a call into libstartup- notification-1.so.0. For the hell of it, I reversed and then redid wnck- applet's prelinking, and it worked fine. So, yes, there is some kind of prelink problem going on. Of course, I completely forgot to make a backup copy of the mangled wnck-applet, so this doesn't help you much beyond a "me too!" (Although, this is an AMD64 system, so that might be another data point). -- Nicholas Miell From n3npq at nc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 22:51:14 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:51:14 -0500 Subject: prelink issues In-Reply-To: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <419E78E2.2020003@nc.rr.com> Colin Walters wrote: >A secondary issue is that we've occasionally seen shared libraries >suddenly not having the right SELinux contexts: >http://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=139860 > > This is as likely to be that sometimes packages do %post -p /sbin/ldconfig and somethimes %post /sbin/ldconfig and sometimes something else entirely handling sonames. The problem is well known, has poppped up repeatedly, is way too complicated to analyze back to the root cause (which was that only /bin/sh has "rpm_script_t" as exec context type), is "fixed" in rpm-4.3.3 (for FC4), and will be fixed elsewhere as soon as I find a "rpm_execcon" symbol in a libselinux that I can link against, and the problem is almost certainly going to reappear a few more times because of the complicated logistics of matching libselinux, a version of rpm, and current policy on user machines with the volume of changes that are now pretty routine in FC. So please make sure you're running rpm-4.3.3 and whatever libselinux is current in FC4 before claiming anything about *.so file contexts going awry. Again, just a hunch, I have insufficient detail to chase the problem home. Wanna bet? ;-) 73 de Jeff From walters at redhat.com Fri Nov 19 23:05:57 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:05:57 -0500 Subject: prelink issues In-Reply-To: <419E78E2.2020003@nc.rr.com> References: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <419E78E2.2020003@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1100905557.5454.46.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 17:51 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > The problem is well known, has poppped up repeatedly, is way too complicated > to analyze back to the root cause (which was that only /bin/sh has > "rpm_script_t" as > exec context type), is "fixed" in rpm-4.3.3 (for FC4), and will be fixed > elsewhere > as soon as I find a "rpm_execcon" symbol in a libselinux that I can link > against, I've seen this on targeted machines too, where rpm and scriptlets run as unconfined_t, correct? The above bug report is against selinux-policy- targeted too. From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 19 23:20:15 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 00:20:15 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Hallo, > fre, 19.11.2004 kl. 20.12 skrev Ricardo Veguilla: > > On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 19:58 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > fre, 19.11.2004 kl. 14.23 skrev Frank: > > > > > > > > > > personally i love the nice Bootup Screen from Fedora and i dont want to > > > > miss him. > > > > > > > > > > You can (somehow) use a different xorg.conf for the bootup screen and > > > for GDM. So that the boot-screen may use the "nv" driver, and the main > > > thing "nvidia". > > > > > > > for rhgb: > > /etc/rhgb/xorg.conf > > > > for the main thing :) > > /etc/X11/xorg.conf > > > :) > thank you So, what is your personal Opinion - is this a really impressing Solution ? but in a Way -> this stops Inovation completely ... this is a First Step to force 2 or 3 or 4 or more Problems -> more - being helpless What about fixing this Problem really in its basics oh and not for Fedora and not for NVidia Greetings Frank From n3npq at nc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 23:22:24 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:22:24 -0500 Subject: prelink issues In-Reply-To: <1100905557.5454.46.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <419E78E2.2020003@nc.rr.com> <1100905557.5454.46.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <419E8030.7040001@nc.rr.com> Colin Walters wrote: >On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 17:51 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > > > >>The problem is well known, has poppped up repeatedly, is way too complicated >>to analyze back to the root cause (which was that only /bin/sh has >>"rpm_script_t" as >>exec context type), is "fixed" in rpm-4.3.3 (for FC4), and will be fixed >>elsewhere >>as soon as I find a "rpm_execcon" symbol in a libselinux that I can link >>against, >> >> > >I've seen this on targeted machines too, where rpm and scriptlets run as >unconfined_t, correct? The above bug report is against selinux-policy- >targeted too. > > All machines, all policies, all rpm's earlier than rpm-4.3.3. The problem is one of mix-n-match, not any specific flaw. Dunno about "unconfined_t" symptom, dwalsh knows the problem details better than I do. Look for Smalley's rpm_execcon patch post in September for the last known manifestation and analysis of the causes if you wish to understand the gory details to confirm the problem. 73 de Jeff From nbargnesi at den-4.com Sat Nov 20 00:17:42 2004 From: nbargnesi at den-4.com (Nick Bargnesi) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:17:42 -0500 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 00:20 +0100, Frank wrote: > Hallo, > > > fre, 19.11.2004 kl. 20.12 skrev Ricardo Veguilla: > > > On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 19:58 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > > fre, 19.11.2004 kl. 14.23 skrev Frank: > > > > > > > > > > > > > personally i love the nice Bootup Screen from Fedora and i dont want to > > > > > miss him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can (somehow) use a different xorg.conf for the bootup screen and > > > > for GDM. So that the boot-screen may use the "nv" driver, and the main > > > > thing "nvidia". > > > > > > > > > > for rhgb: > > > /etc/rhgb/xorg.conf > > > > > > for the main thing :) > > > /etc/X11/xorg.conf > > > > > :) > > > > thank you > > So, what is your personal Opinion - is this a really impressing > Solution ? > > but in a Way -> this stops Inovation completely ... this is a First Step > to force 2 or 3 or 4 or more Problems -> more - being helpless > > What about fixing this Problem really in its basics > > oh and not for Fedora and not for NVidia > > Greetings Frank > A better workaround I found was to put /sbin/modprobe nvidia before the "Welcome to redhat..." inside /etc/rc.sysinit. Its about line 100 I believe. Regards, Nick Bargnesi From lightingisfun at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 00:49:55 2004 From: lightingisfun at gmail.com (David Corrigan) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:49:55 -0800 Subject: (boot improvement experiments) Re: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> Message-ID: <7248933a041119164922013f41@mail.gmail.com> Those times are really good. I think I'll start tinkering with my box and see what it produces. But first: How do I turn on boot logging and where is the log saved? David On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:22:50 -0300, Franco Catrin wrote: > > Sorry to hang up on this part of the discussion, I've just subscribed > fedora-devel because I knew there was a discussion about the boot time > on Fedora. > > I was trying to improve the boot time with FC2 some weeks ago, and I got > very interesting results. This is not directly related to the boot > poster, it is just a trial and error work to improve FC2 boot time. > > My machine: > > P4-M 2.8Ghz HT > 512MB RAM > 4200RM hard disk drive (dell notebook, very slow compared to a desktop > machine) > Fedora Core 2 + updates > Nvidia card with nvidia drivers > > Critical times for me: > > GDM: Time from GRUB until GDM gets ready to login an user > GNOME: Time to load the whole gnome-session for the fist time > EPIPHANY: Time to load epiphany for the fist time > OPENOFFICE: Time to load any openoffice application for the fist time > > Original timings: > > - GDM: 75 seconds (more than 1 minute!) > - GNOME: 41 seconds > - EPIPHANY: 5 seconds > - OPENOFFICE: 22 seconds > > Results: > - GDM: 38 seconds (!!) > - GNOME: 19 seconds > - EPIPHANY: 2 seconds > - OPENOFFICE: 5 seconds (!!) > > Bottlenecks I couldn't resolve: > > - IDE detection in the kernel > - init start time > - USB detection > - nvidia driver probing for monitor/lcd/tv > - gnome trying to load 1500 files (it seems to be resolved now with > icon-cache, owen?) > > FC3 seems to be slower. I've just installed FC3 this week, and I really > miss my old boot timings > > Method: > > Since I am the only one who uses this notebook, and it doesn't change > the hardware, there are several things that doesn't need to be running, > and several other things that doesn't need to be checked (quota for > example) > > I've also changed the order of things that are started, for example > there is no need to load httpd nor sshd before bringing gdm up. > > Gory details: > > - I disabled: > - kudzu > - rhgb > - netfs > - sendmail > > - I added "fastboot" option to the kernel. I saw that rc.sysinit use > this flag to skip some things, I don't remember what exactly did at this > time > > - I commented out every unneeded check by rc.sysinit on my machine (like > quotas) > > - I prepared an readahead.early.files running strace -e trace=open on X > and gdm > > - the fist thing that I put in rc.sysinit was an hdparm command the get > the best of my slow disk > > - readahead.early.files is processed asynchronously with low priority as > soon as possible (on top of rc.sysinit). It preloads X+gdm > > - I commented out the line that loads prefdm in iniitab, replacing it > with a chkconfig script > > - I disabled "unix:" fonts in X, so xfs was disabled > > - the fisrt script to run runlevel 5 is the prefdm chkconfig script, I > added "ifup lo" in before loading the real prefedm script > > - services like pcmcia, sshd, httpd, and others are loaded with low > priority behinds the scenes, while x+gdm are starting. They ever load > fine, so I don't need to see if they load or not. > > - I prepared a readahead.files running strace -e trace=open over gnome- > session + gnome componentes (gnome-panel, gconfd and others). There I > found all the icons loaded by gnome-panel (by the theme I suppose) > > - readahead is executed against readahead.files just after gdm is ready > to accept a login. I did it measuring the time and adding a sleep > command before running readahead (cof cof) > > - while the user (me) is entering the username and password, the gnome > session is preloaded with readahead. > > - I prepared another readahead file running strace -e trace=open over > openoffice and epiphany > > - I set up gnome-session-properties to run this readahead just after > loading the gnome-session (priority 90 did the work) > > This approach doesn't make the system faster at all, but it seems faster > to the user. The main trick is to change the order of loading the system > components and preload the slowest applications. > > I don't think that this is applicable to the distribution as a whole, > but I know that some things than can help on this type of customization > and may be applied on Fedora > > 1. rc.sysinit could be modularized, so the user can disable/enable some > bits of it without touching the script file. An easy way could be to > move some part of it to chkconfig scripts > > 2. prefdm in inittab could be moved to a chkconfig script, and the order > of services could be changed so prefdm could be started before starting > services like httpd, sshd, and others > > 3. figure out a way to automate the generation of readahead files to > match the most used files > > I know that Seth Nickell was working on 1 and 2, but I haven't heard of > that again (SystemServices) > > I would be glad to help on improving Fedora boot time > -- > Franco Catrin L. TUXPAN > http://www.tuxpan.com/fcatrin > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From fcatrin at tuxpan.com Sat Nov 20 02:44:00 2004 From: fcatrin at tuxpan.com (Franco Catrin) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:44:00 -0300 Subject: (boot improvement experiments) Re: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041119215612.GA25848@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> <20041119215612.GA25848@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100918640.2061.1.camel@shaman.home> El vie, 19-11-2004 a las 18:56, Bill Nottingham escribi?: > Franco Catrin (fcatrin at tuxpan.com) said: > > 2. prefdm in inittab could be moved to a chkconfig script, and the order > > of services could be changed so prefdm could be started before starting > > services like httpd, sshd, and others > > This has interesting effects on the available VTs for use. what do you exactly mean? mingetty lines are still on inittab, they run fine and X still loads in VT7 -- Franco From ndbecker2 at verizon.net Sat Nov 20 03:09:40 2004 From: ndbecker2 at verizon.net (Neal Becker) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:09:40 -0500 Subject: various python packages installed in wrong place x86_64 Message-ID: I noticed there are quite a few packages installing into /usr/lib/python2.3 instead of /usr/lib64/python2.3. For example: >rpm -q subversion.x86_64 subversion-1.1.1-1.1 >rpm -q -l subversion [...] /usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/libsvn From notting at redhat.com Sat Nov 20 03:14:53 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:14:53 -0500 Subject: (boot improvement experiments) Re: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100918640.2061.1.camel@shaman.home> References: <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> <20041119215612.GA25848@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100918640.2061.1.camel@shaman.home> Message-ID: <20041120031453.GC31128@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Franco Catrin (fcatrin at tuxpan.com) said: > > This has interesting effects on the available VTs for use. > > what do you exactly mean? > > mingetty lines are still on inittab, they run fine and X still loads in > VT7 *dm takes the first available vt. If you run it before other VTs are initialized, it will take, say, vt2. However, now that I think about it, since we open all the configured vts (for unicode initialization) in rc.sysinit, this should work. Bill From mark at mitre.org Sat Nov 20 03:17:33 2004 From: mark at mitre.org (Mark Heslep) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:17:33 -0500 Subject: Missing boot.iso? In-Reply-To: <20041119171108.GA21416@wolves.durham.nc.us> References: <20041119171108.GA21416@wolves.durham.nc.us> Message-ID: <419EB74D.9090907@mitre.org> Gregory Woodbury wrote: >I notice that boot.iso (and everything else) is missing from the images >directory in development. > >Is this intentional, or is something broken? > > > > As well as the next stage boot images in ../Fedora/base. Yes, whats up? From johnp at redhat.com Sat Nov 20 03:17:31 2004 From: johnp at redhat.com (John (J5) Palmieri) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:17:31 -0500 Subject: prelink issues In-Reply-To: <20041119213642.GD10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20041119205932.GC10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100899980.5454.34.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20041119213642.GD10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100920651.1375.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> RedHat bug #140081 has tarred up libraries attached that are effected by the prelink bug. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=140081 On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 16:36, Jakub Jelinek wrote: > On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 04:33:00PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > > Anyway, if you have a reproducer and tar up the binary, all libraries > > > and whatever else is necessary for reproduction, that goes away > > > if you unprelink the binary or its libraries, I'll certainly look at > > > it. > > > > Will do. > > Note that the important thing is to tar them up before unprelinking, > if the bug goes away after unprelinking, when you prelink -u it is > usually to late. > > tar chjf foo.tar.bz2 `LD_TRACE_PRELINKING=1 LD_WARN= /path/to/program | awk '{print $3}'` > > should do the job. > > Jakub From dragoran at feuerpokemon.de Sat Nov 20 08:13:33 2004 From: dragoran at feuerpokemon.de (dragoran) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:13:33 +0100 Subject: Recompiling the Fedora 3 Kernel - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> Message-ID: <419EFCAD.10700@feuerpokemon.de> Nick Bargnesi schrieb: >On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 00:20 +0100, Frank wrote: > > >>Hallo, >> >> >> >>>fre, 19.11.2004 kl. 20.12 skrev Ricardo Veguilla: >>> >>> >>>>On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 19:58 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>fre, 19.11.2004 kl. 14.23 skrev Frank: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>personally i love the nice Bootup Screen from Fedora and i dont want to >>>>>>miss him. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>You can (somehow) use a different xorg.conf for the bootup screen and >>>>>for GDM. So that the boot-screen may use the "nv" driver, and the main >>>>>thing "nvidia". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>for rhgb: >>>>/etc/rhgb/xorg.conf >>>> >>>>for the main thing :) >>>>/etc/X11/xorg.conf >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>:) >>> >>> >>> >>thank you >> >>So, what is your personal Opinion - is this a really impressing >>Solution ? >> >>but in a Way -> this stops Inovation completely ... this is a First Step >>to force 2 or 3 or 4 or more Problems -> more - being helpless >> >>What about fixing this Problem really in its basics >> >>oh and not for Fedora and not for NVidia >> >>Greetings Frank >> >> >> > >A better workaround I found was to put > >/sbin/modprobe nvidia > >before the "Welcome to redhat..." inside /etc/rc.sysinit. Its about >line 100 I believe. > >Regards, >Nick Bargnesi > > > -installing nvidia driver (using agpgart) -edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf modprobe nvidia cp -a /dev/nvidia* /etc/udev/devices chown root.root /etc/udev/devices/nvidia* chmod 0666 /etc/udev/devices/nvidia* reboot works fine for me I haven't hacked any initscripts or something else .... From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Sat Nov 20 11:04:23 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:04:23 +0100 Subject: various python packages installed in wrong place x86_64 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041120120423.63289efd.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Neal Becker wrote : > I noticed there are quite a few packages installing into > /usr/lib/python2.3 instead of /usr/lib64/python2.3. For example: > > >rpm -q subversion.x86_64 > subversion-1.1.1-1.1 > > >rpm -q -l subversion > [...] > /usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/libsvn I would guess these are arch-independant files, where there is only python code and no actual .so "binary" shared libs. Of course, for subversion, since it's not a separate package, it won't be a .noarch.rpm. Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.667.radeonfb Load : 0.01 0.07 0.08 From laroche at redhat.com Sat Nov 20 11:11:28 2004 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:11:28 +0100 Subject: prelink issues In-Reply-To: <1100899980.5454.34.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20041119205932.GC10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100899980.5454.34.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <20041120111128.GA7110@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > Ok. I'm a bit baffled as to why this should only show up now if that's > what's happening though. I've gotten about 5-6 reports of this against > eggucups upstream just in the last few days. Happened here today with a FC3 install plus all updates. Will check this out if I find further time today or tomorrow morning. eggcups segfault directly on startup. greetings, Florian La Roche From buildsys at redhat.com Sat Nov 20 12:45:33 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:45:33 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041120 changes Message-ID: <200411201245.iAKCjXK19344@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: Omni-0.9.2-1 ------------ * Fri Nov 19 2004 Tim Waugh 0.9.2-1 - Build requires automake and libtool. - 0.9.2. - No longer need parser, vendor or omni-form patches. - Prevent libdir confusion by setting it explicitly. aspell-bg-50:0.50-7 ------------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Adrian Havill 50:0.50-7 - add kbd file (#138304) audit-0.5.3-1 ------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Steve Grubb 0.5.3-1 - New version freeradius-1.0.1-3 ------------------ * Fri Nov 19 2004 Thomas Woerner 1.0.1-3 - rebuild for MySQL 4 - switched over to installed libtool * Fri Nov 05 2004 Thomas Woerner 1.0.1-2 - Fixed install problem of radeapclient (#138069) gcc-3.4.3-4 ----------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.3-4 - issue error on invalid bitfields (Joseph S. Myers, PR c/18498) - fix __builtin_{setjmp,longjmp} to do stack adjustements properly (Eric Botcazou, Roger Sayle, PR middle-end/17813 #139929) - fix combine on STRICT_LOW_PART (PR rtl-optimization/17825, #138627) glibc-2.3.3-81 -------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-81 - don't use chunksize in <= 2 * SIZE_SZ free () checks * Fri Nov 19 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-80 - update from CVS - with -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2, prevent missing %N$ formats - for -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 and %n in writable format string, issue special error message instead of using the buffer overflow detected one - speedup regex searching with REG_NOSUB, add RE_NO_SUB, speedup searching with nested subexps (BZ #544) - block SIGCANCEL in NPTL timer_* helper thread - further free () checking kdebindings-3.3.1-4 ------------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Than Ngo 3.3.1-4 - add missing requires on python-abi kdegraphics-7:3.3.1-4 --------------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Than Ngo 7:3.3.1-4 - fix xf86gammacfg to work with xorg.conf lynx-2.8.5-19 ------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Tim Waugh 2.8.5-19 - 2.8.5rel1. Fixes bug #139783. man-1.5o1-7 ----------- * Tue Nov 09 2004 Adrian Havill 1.5o1-7 - upgrade to 1.5o1: update patches, remove gencat iconv and posix page hacks as they're upstream fixed (#128691, #129882) - don't pre-strip binaries prior to -debuginfo pkg - nroff not called with -rLL=, -rLT= parameters which should contain value from get_line_width()/MANWIDTH (#80893) - append ".color" request to groff output to control color/monochrome control via the new man "-b" switch (#120112) - reverse iconv catmsgs for legacy enc support (#138199) Thanks to Andy Shevchenko - update English man page: remove obsolete LESSCHARSET reference (#133521); add -b switch and NOCOLOR conf directive - "Welche Handbuchseite soll angezeigt werden?" (#135995) - make makewhatis cronjob execute before logwatch (#64836) * Wed Oct 13 2004 Adrian Havill 1.5m2-9 - make sure we touch Makefile timestamp so make doesn't get confused and think we haven't run configure - replace russian messages (#134387) Thanks to Leonid Kanter * Sun Aug 01 2004 Alan Cox - Fix requirements (#126601) man-pages-pl-0.23-4 ------------------- * Thu Nov 18 2004 Adrian Havill 0.23-4 - remove mc.1 (#138865) openssl-0.9.7a-44 ----------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 0.9.7a-44 - rebuild * Fri Nov 19 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 0.9.7a-43 - rebuild * Fri Nov 19 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 0.9.7a-42 - rebuild python-2.4-0.c1.1 ----------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Mihai Ibanescu 2.4-0.c1.1 - Python-2.4c1.tar.bz2 (release candidate 1) * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 2.4-0.b2.4 - rebuild against db-4.3.21. * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.4-0.b2.3 - fix the lib64 patch so that 64bit arches still look in /usr/lib/python... rhgb-0.16.1-1 ------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Daniel Veillard 0.16.1 - switch to display :9 to fix #139704 - delay creation of the fifo after X initialization to avoid deadlock with initscripts if X fails to start #135574 - cleanup in case of deadly signal received - improved the debugging layer to chase aformentioned bugs. - po/*: update the translations rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041120 --------------------------- selinux-policy-strict-1.19.3-1 ------------------------------ * Fri Nov 19 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-3-1 - Upgrade to upstream - Add fixes for postgres and apache selinux-policy-targeted-1.19.3-1 -------------------------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-3-1 - Upgrade to upstream - Add fixes for postgres and apache slang-1.4.9-13 -------------- * Thu Nov 04 2004 Adrian Havill 1.4.9-13 - re-sync old debian patch to latest 1.4.9 sources - consolidate rhat hacks, fix SLsmg_draw_hline() artifact (#138445) squirrelmail-1.4.3a-7 --------------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Warren Togami 1.4.3a-7 - CAN-2004-1036 Cross Site Scripting in encoded text - #112769 updated splash screens vim-1:6.3.033-1 --------------- * Fri Nov 19 2004 Karsten Hopp 6.3.033-1 - patchlevel 33 * Tue Nov 02 2004 Karsten Hopp 6.3.030-3 - fix selinux patch, so that HAVE_SELINUX will not be defined on non-selinux systems (#137860) From thomas at apestaart.org Sat Nov 20 12:23:42 2004 From: thomas at apestaart.org (Thomas Vander Stichele) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:23:42 +0100 Subject: RFE: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1100953422.26569.5.camel@otto.amantes> Hi, > No I cannot submit my packages to the fedora.us repository, my current > packages work for older Fedora release, older Red Hat release and RHEL. > Submitting it to fedora.us is simply not possible because fedora.us has no > standards to allow for that. I've proposed some more stuff at the very > beginning, all utterly ignored. Dag, you know I love you. But please represent the fact as it was and is: fedora.us never had the goal to build for all the targets you build for. It's that simple. Thus your "stuff" on that particular matter was not ignored; it just did not align with the goals for that particular matter. As for other stuff that might have been ignored - possible, and no sense in dragging it up. But if we are all to cooperate peacefully we should at least give our jabs at the past a rest. Thomas Dave/Dina : future TV today ! - http://www.davedina.org/ <-*- thomas (dot) apestaart (dot) org -*-> There's nothing I want to see There's nowhere I want to go <-*- thomas (at) apestaart (dot) org -*-> URGent, best radio on the net - 24/7 ! - http://urgent.fm/ From paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk Sat Nov 20 13:27:21 2004 From: paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk (Paul) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:27:21 +0000 Subject: rawhide report: 20041120 changes In-Reply-To: <200411201245.iAKCjXK19344@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411201245.iAKCjXK19344@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100957241.29822.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, > python-2.4-0.c1.1 > ----------------- > * Fri Nov 19 2004 Mihai Ibanescu 2.4-0.c1.1 > - Python-2.4c1.tar.bz2 (release candidate 1) > > * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 2.4-0.b2.4 > - rebuild against db-4.3.21. > > * Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.4-0.b2.3 > - fix the lib64 patch so that 64bit arches still look in /usr/lib/python... There doesn't seem to be any mention of the long standing urllib and urllib2 bugs. Have these been fixed properly now we are onto a release candidate version? TTFN Paul -- "I'm gonna hit the highway like a bat out of hell with a Cilla Black fan on the bike" - Meatloaf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From n3npq at nc.rr.com Sat Nov 20 13:49:09 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:49:09 -0500 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> Message-ID: <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> While I fully understand that "product" is "enhanced" by "features" which, in the case of a linux distribution, usually means more packages, I think it's time to soberly consider what should be removed from Fedora Core as well. I nominate db1 for elimination, and volunteer to "fix" any Fedora Core package that still thinks it needs db1. I also think it's time to put LinuxThreads on death row. Any program that cannot use NPTL at this point in time is very likely to be terminally broken in other ways than needing LinuxThreads. Are there any other known deficient implementations that might meaningfully be removed in FC4? 73 de Jeff From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Sat Nov 20 14:17:56 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:17:56 +0100 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1100960276.9491.0.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le samedi 20 novembre 2004 ? 08:49 -0500, Jeff Johnson a ?crit : > Are there any other known deficient implementations that might > meaningfully be > removed in FC4? Legacy X11 font support (ducks) -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From arjanv at redhat.com Sat Nov 20 14:21:23 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:21:23 +0100 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 08:49 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > Are there any other known deficient implementations that might > meaningfully be > removed in FC4? we should consider replacing/rewriting up2date realistically... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From n3npq at nc.rr.com Sat Nov 20 14:43:22 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:43:22 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041120 changes In-Reply-To: <1100957241.29822.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200411201245.iAKCjXK19344@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <1100957241.29822.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <419F580A.8020208@nc.rr.com> Paul wrote: >Hi, > > > >>python-2.4-0.c1.1 >>----------------- >>* Fri Nov 19 2004 Mihai Ibanescu 2.4-0.c1.1 >>- Python-2.4c1.tar.bz2 (release candidate 1) >> >>* Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 2.4-0.b2.4 >>- rebuild against db-4.3.21. >> >>* Mon Nov 08 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.4-0.b2.3 >>- fix the lib64 patch so that 64bit arches still look in /usr/lib/python... >> >> > >There doesn't seem to be any mention of the long standing urllib and >urllib2 bugs. Have these been fixed properly now we are onto a release >candidate version? > > Easy enough to find out, download, and run yum. No way is FC4 currently a "release candidate", but I understand you have not had your coffee yet ;-) 73 de Jeff From dsl156391 at vip.cybercity.dk Sat Nov 20 14:54:31 2004 From: dsl156391 at vip.cybercity.dk (yahya John Lorenzen) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:54:31 +0100 Subject: about soundcard in fedora two Message-ID: <1100962471.4118.7.camel@dhcppc0> Hi My fedaro2 are seeing my soundcard (sillicon integratedsystems) but do not want to play my realplayer.?? likewise my fedora 2 do not want to see my dhcppc something address when it starts up why? How come??? are there a new Fedora 4 on the way? sincerely Yahya Lorenzen From dsl156391 at vip.cybercity.dk Sat Nov 20 15:06:42 2004 From: dsl156391 at vip.cybercity.dk (yahya John Lorenzen) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:06:42 +0100 Subject: how to burn fedora 3 on cd's Message-ID: <1100963202.6757.4.camel@dhcppc0> Hi Right now im downloading Fedora 3. 1. but I have 2 problems I don't know how to see what kind of processor which is on my computer... How can I see this? 2. how do I burn the files on cd's? after i downloaded them? pleas pleas don't explain commandos but explain it with a with mouse sincerely Y. Lorenzen From biped at comcast.net Sat Nov 20 15:22:53 2004 From: biped at comcast.net (Marcus Schuetz) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:22:53 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041120 changes In-Reply-To: <419F580A.8020208@nc.rr.com> References: <200411201245.iAKCjXK19344@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <1100957241.29822.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419F580A.8020208@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <419F614D.4030309@comcast.net> Jeff Johnson released the following into the bitstream on 11/20/04 09:43: > Paul wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> >> >>> python-2.4-0.c1.1 >>> ----------------- >>> * Fri Nov 19 2004 Mihai Ibanescu 2.4-0.c1.1 >>> - Python-2.4c1.tar.bz2 (release candidate 1) >> There doesn't seem to be any mention of the long standing urllib and >> urllib2 bugs. Have these been fixed properly now we are onto a release >> candidate version? >> >> > > Easy enough to find out, download, and run yum. > > No way is FC4 currently a "release candidate", but I understand you have > not had your coffee yet ;-) > > 73 de Jeff > > I haven't had my coffee either, but I think he meant Python being the release candidate and not FC4 ;-) -- :: M a r c u s * Of the thirty-six ways of avoiding disaster, running away works best. From n3npq at nc.rr.com Sat Nov 20 15:36:00 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:36:00 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041120 changes In-Reply-To: <419F614D.4030309@comcast.net> References: <200411201245.iAKCjXK19344@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <1100957241.29822.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <419F580A.8020208@nc.rr.com> <419F614D.4030309@comcast.net> Message-ID: <419F6460.3050304@nc.rr.com> Marcus Schuetz wrote: > Jeff Johnson released the following into the bitstream on 11/20/04 09:43: > >>> >>> >> >> Easy enough to find out, download, and run yum. >> >> No way is FC4 currently a "release candidate", but I understand you >> have not had your coffee yet ;-) >> >> 73 de Jeff >> >> > > I haven't had my coffee either, but I think he meant Python being the > release candidate and not FC4 ;-) Yah ;-) So I downloaded python and tried some of the suggestions at #138535 with yum. No fix that I can see yet. 73 de Jeff From redhat at olen.net Sat Nov 20 15:36:48 2004 From: redhat at olen.net (Ola Thoresen) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:36:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: rawhide report: 20041120 changes References: <200411201245.iAKCjXK19344@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <1100957241.29822.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 at 13:27 GMT Paul wrote > > There doesn't seem to be any mention of the long standing urllib and > urllib2 bugs. Have these been fixed properly now we are onto a release > candidate version? > No luck here. (After a rebuild of about a zillion packages and forcing an upgrade of the latest python). So I guess we must still wait for yet another python build. /Ola (T) From lightingisfun at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 15:47:56 2004 From: lightingisfun at gmail.com (David Corrigan) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:47:56 -0800 Subject: how to burn fedora 3 on cd's In-Reply-To: <1100963202.6757.4.camel@dhcppc0> References: <1100963202.6757.4.camel@dhcppc0> Message-ID: <7248933a04112007473ccf0954@mail.gmail.com> Hi, What OS are you using now? What file(s) are you downloading? David On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:06:42 +0100, yahya John Lorenzen wrote: > Hi > > Right now im downloading Fedora 3. > > 1. but I have 2 problems I don't know how to see what kind of processor > which is on my computer... How can I see this? > > 2. how do I burn the files on cd's? after i downloaded them? pleas pleas > don't explain commandos but explain it with a with mouse > > sincerely > > Y. Lorenzen > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From karl.vogel at telenet.be Sat Nov 20 15:53:47 2004 From: karl.vogel at telenet.be (karl.vogel at telenet.be) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:53:47 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: (Karl Vogel's message of "Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:04:19 +0100") References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Karl Vogel writes: > FWIW.. my bootlog (no flashy graphs though): > > Feel free to add some GD.pm lovin' to the script :-) Grabbed GD.pm and fooled around with it a bit: http://users.telenet.be/kvogel/boot.png Still looks kinda lame compared to some other graphs, but then design has never been one of my strong points :) > http://users.telenet.be/kvogel/boot.html Updated this log with a new run using sleep 0.10 interval and also added vmstat to the output, which shows that most of the time, my machine is idle (even with the extra cpu time needed for the logger). The boot is to initlevel 3 without X11 and no DHCP, which takes 29 seconds. NOTE: this laptop boots in 10 seconds from GRUB to GNOME (with firefox, XEmacs and a couple of terminals open) using swsusp2, so there is certainly some room for improvement :) From dsl156391 at vip.cybercity.dk Sat Nov 20 15:56:44 2004 From: dsl156391 at vip.cybercity.dk (yahya John Lorenzen) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:56:44 +0100 Subject: how to burn fedora 3 on cd's In-Reply-To: <7248933a04112007473ccf0954@mail.gmail.com> References: <1100963202.6757.4.camel@dhcppc0> <7248933a04112007473ccf0954@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100966204.6886.1.camel@dhcppc0> Hi Im running Fedora2 l?r, 2004-11-20 kl. 16:47 skrev David Corrigan: > Hi, > > What OS are you using now? > What file(s) are you downloading? > > David > > On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:06:42 +0100, yahya John Lorenzen > wrote: > > Hi > > > > Right now im downloading Fedora 3. > > > > 1. but I have 2 problems I don't know how to see what kind of processor > > which is on my computer... How can I see this? > > > > 2. how do I burn the files on cd's? after i downloaded them? pleas pleas > > don't explain commandos but explain it with a with mouse > > > > sincerely > > > > Y. Lorenzen > > > > -- > > fedora-devel-list mailing list > > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > > From alan at redhat.com Sat Nov 20 16:24:00 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:24:00 -0500 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041120162400.GA32406@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 08:49:09AM -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > I also think it's time to put LinuxThreads on death row. Any program > that cannot > use NPTL at this point in time is very likely to be terminally broken in > other ways > than needing LinuxThreads. If FC4 glibc does NPTL for 486+ I agree From lightingisfun at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 16:32:50 2004 From: lightingisfun at gmail.com (David Corrigan) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:32:50 -0800 Subject: how to burn fedora 3 on cd's In-Reply-To: <1100966204.6886.1.camel@dhcppc0> References: <1100963202.6757.4.camel@dhcppc0> <7248933a04112007473ccf0954@mail.gmail.com> <1100966204.6886.1.camel@dhcppc0> Message-ID: <7248933a0411200832120e74c9@mail.gmail.com> Hi If you have a cd burner and are using a i386 machine aka not a mac: 1. Pick a mirror off of this list, any one of them should work: http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors.html There are 2 main methods to get the files: 1. use a web browser (i.e. Firefox) 2. use wget(recommended) Getting the files using a webbrowser: Click on the mirror you choose and navigate to: 3->i386->iso NOTE: Not all mirrors have the iso directory, ists trial an error on who has it and who doesn't Download: FC3-i386-disc1.iso FC3-i386-disc2.iso FC3-i386-disc3.iso FC3-i386-disc4.iso Those will take awhile and I DON'T recommend using a webbrowser to download them. I've had Firefox stall a few times when downloading them. Getting the files using wget: Find a mirror and run these commands: wget -t=0 -retry-connrefused 3/i386/iso/FC3-i386-disc1.iso wget -t=0 -retry-connrefused 3/i386/iso/FC3-i386-disc2.iso wget -t=0 -retry-connrefused 3/i386/iso/FC3-i386-disc3.iso wget -t=0 -retry-connrefused 3/i386/iso/FC3-i386-disc4.iso NOTE: make sure the mirror you're using has the iso directory, most do but not all Ex: wget ftp://mirror.newnanutilities.org/pub/fedora/linux/core/3/i386/iso/FC3-i386-disc1.iso These commands can be combined by putting && between them After you get the files: run the command: k3b If it is the first time you have run it you might need to tell it how fast your burner is. For each file you downloaded: Goto Tools->CD->Burn CD Image... In the top left corner of the window that poped up click the "open folder" button and select the image file and hit OK. Put a blank cd into the burner and Label it "Fedora Core 3: D?/4" replace the ? with whatever disk number it is. Then click Start. When all files are burned boot your computer using the first the CD. David On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:56:44 +0100, yahya John Lorenzen wrote: > Hi > > Im running Fedora2 > > l?r, 2004-11-20 kl. 16:47 skrev David Corrigan: > > > > Hi, > > > > What OS are you using now? > > What file(s) are you downloading? > > > > David > > > > On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:06:42 +0100, yahya John Lorenzen > > wrote: > > > Hi > > > > > > Right now im downloading Fedora 3. > > > > > > 1. but I have 2 problems I don't know how to see what kind of processor > > > which is on my computer... How can I see this? > > > > > > 2. how do I burn the files on cd's? after i downloaded them? pleas pleas > > > don't explain commandos but explain it with a with mouse > > > > > > sincerely > > > > > > Y. Lorenzen > > > > > > -- > > > fedora-devel-list mailing list > > > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > > > > > -- > > > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Nov 20 16:41:26 2004 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:41:26 -0500 Subject: Various Fedora Extra changes (mailing list?), plus is APT now deprecated? Message-ID: <1100968885.21276.25.camel@localhost.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> I guess this e-mail is a long time in coming. Please understand I have the utmost and sincerest respect for everyone's hard work, but it's time to ask some tough questions. First off, I want to point out this 2004Sep19 post to Fedora-Devel: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-September/msg00879.html So where is this announce list? Or is there a discussion list? Or is the traffic part of fedora-devel now (I assume not)? Secondly, while Fedora Extras packages have yet to be released for Fedora Core 3, I could not even do an "apt-get dist-upgrade" as various APT index files are seemingly lacking from the Fedora.US site just for the "OS" (Fedora Core) portions (hoping the existing set of Fedora Extras for Fedora Core 2 would suffice, since FC2 and FC3 are pretty much "ABI compatible"). So, is APT distribution now being deprecated for Fedora? Or should Fedora.US be considered basically "off-limits" for Fedora Core 3 right now. [ I know I could built my own APT repository, and solve the issue, which I might. ] Lastly, can someone detail the changes in the rollout of Fedora Extras packages for Fedora Core 3? I would very much like to better understand the new release management for Fedora Extras. As a major proponent of proper lifecycle and configuration management, I can not only understand, but even appreciate delays in such release. So I don't mind waiting at all, but would like to understand the changes in Fedora Extras for Fedora Core 3. Thanx for fielding these questions in advance. I will continue to truly appreciate all the hard work of Red Hat and Fedora volunteers. -- Bryan J. Smith General Annoyance P.S. And not to throw any bigotry into the questions, hence why this is a "P.S.," but I haven't seen a good explanation on why YUM is getting preference over APT in current Red Hat Fedora moves? I heavily prefer APT for various reasons, and would like to understand what advantages of YUM I am missing? -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- Subtotal Cost of Ownership (SCO) for Windows being less than Linux Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) assumes experts for the former, costly retraining for the latter, omitted "software assurance" costs in compatible desktop OS/apps for the former, no free/legacy reuse for latter, and no basic security, patch or downtime comparison at all. From abo at kth.se Sat Nov 20 16:42:10 2004 From: abo at kth.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:42:10 +0100 Subject: about soundcard in fedora two In-Reply-To: <1100962471.4118.7.camel@dhcppc0> References: <1100962471.4118.7.camel@dhcppc0> Message-ID: <1100968931.3509.91.camel@tudor.e.kth.se> l?r 2004-11-20 klockan 15:54 +0100 skrev yahya John Lorenzen: > Hi > > My fedaro2 are seeing my soundcard (sillicon integratedsystems) but do > not want to play my realplayer.?? Hello, Please send support questions to the fedora-list. See http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/ This list is for talk about the development of Fedora. /abo From fcatrin at tuxpan.com Sat Nov 20 16:54:32 2004 From: fcatrin at tuxpan.com (Franco Catrin) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:54:32 -0300 Subject: (boot improvement experiments) Re: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041120031453.GC31128@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> <20041119215612.GA25848@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100918640.2061.1.camel@shaman.home> <20041120031453.GC31128@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100921448.2061.5.camel@shaman.home> El s?b, 20-11-2004 a las 00:14, Bill Nottingham escribi?: > Franco Catrin (fcatrin at tuxpan.com) said: > > > This has interesting effects on the available VTs for use. > > > > what do you exactly mean? > > > > mingetty lines are still on inittab, they run fine and X still loads in > > VT7 > > *dm takes the first available vt. If you run it before other VTs > are initialized, it will take, say, vt2. you can force it in gdm.conf if you want > However, now that I think about it, since we open all the configured > vts (for unicode initialization) in rc.sysinit, this should work. that's true, that's true man :-) -- Franco Catrin L. http://www.tuxpan.com/fcatrin From rdieter at math.unl.edu Sat Nov 20 17:01:49 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:01:49 -0600 Subject: is APT now deprecated? No In-Reply-To: <1100968885.21276.25.camel@localhost.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1100968885.21276.25.camel@localhost.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <419F787D.9020301@math.unl.edu> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Secondly, while Fedora Extras packages have yet to be released for > Fedora Core 3, I could not even do an "apt-get dist-upgrade" as various > APT index files are seemingly lacking from the Fedora.US site WORKSFORME using a mostly-homebrew-rebuild from fc2's apt.src.rpm using: rpm http://download.fedora.us/fedora fedora/3/i386 os updates -- Rex From n3npq at nc.rr.com Sat Nov 20 16:56:16 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:56:16 -0500 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> Arjan van de Ven wrote: >On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 08:49 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > > >>Are there any other known deficient implementations that might >>meaningfully be >>removed in FC4? >> >> > >we should consider replacing/rewriting up2date realistically... > > And we need to add apt-rpm to FC4 and watch the depsolver battles proceed to their appropriate end points. FC4 is the perfect stadium. I volunteer to package apt-rpm as Magister Ludi ... 73 de Jeff From dsl156391 at vip.cybercity.dk Sat Nov 20 16:56:24 2004 From: dsl156391 at vip.cybercity.dk (yahya John Lorenzen) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:56:24 +0100 Subject: .. Message-ID: <1100969784.6886.3.camel@dhcppc0> then let me not receive more mails from this list From linux at glossolalie.org Sat Nov 20 17:10:26 2004 From: linux at glossolalie.org (Thierry Sayegh) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:10:26 +0000 Subject: .. In-Reply-To: <1100969784.6886.3.camel@dhcppc0> References: <1100969784.6886.3.camel@dhcppc0> Message-ID: <419F7A82.2000607@glossolalie.org> yahya John Lorenzen wrote: > then let me not receive more mails from this list Go there: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list unsubscribe yourself from it... T -- A: Because people read from top to bottom Q: Why is top posting bad? From lightingisfun at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 17:25:55 2004 From: lightingisfun at gmail.com (David Corrigan) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:25:55 -0800 Subject: (boot improvement experiments) Re: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> Message-ID: <7248933a04112009251727440e@mail.gmail.com> > - I prepared an readahead.early.files running strace -e trace=open on X > and gdm Could you provide some more details about how the readahead files are created and loaded? I ran strace in the terminal and it said the X server was already running so I assume I need to have it start X. Where does the command need to be executed? David From Frank at lists.sytes.net Sat Nov 20 17:34:28 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:34:28 +0100 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> Message-ID: <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> Nick Bargnesi: > A better workaround I found was to put > > /sbin/modprobe nvidia > > before the "Welcome to redhat..." inside /etc/rc.sysinit. Its about > line 100 I believe. > > Regards, > Nick Bargnesi > Thank you too ... but i have no Problems with my NVidia Driver except if i reboot the Maschine. I can playing Games, rendering and lauthing dragoran: -installing nvidia driver (using agpgart) -edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf modprobe nvidia cp -a /dev/nvidia* /etc/udev/devices chown root.root /etc/udev/devices/nvidia* chmod 0666 /etc/udev/devices/nvidia* reboot yes exactly ... but ive loaded the original NVdriver and removed the Linux Kernel AGP Driver, because the NVidia AGP Driver outperformes the LINUX AGP Driver. all Help Messages are very friendly. Still, the Problem persists i get a LINUX Kernel CRASH if i simply reboot the Maschine after a long Day working. Thankx Greetings Frank From arjanv at redhat.com Sat Nov 20 17:47:35 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:47:35 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 12:06 +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 08:36 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > > There's a 20 MB load of files in your readahead list and they are being > > > read for 15 seconds. I guess a 26.60 MB/sec 'hdparm -t' suggests room > > > for improvement? Note that this is on a 4200 RPM drive. > > > > hmm yeah there ought to be room; I'll need to think about how to use that > > though. > > Yeah I guess the fact that disk caches are loaded on a per-file basis > doesn't help either. Because in theory: stat-ing your list takes about > 3 sec and readahead on a tarball is instantaneous (both of course > without boot-time readahead). ok here is another try; I hacked up a tool to sort the list in disk order. use it like this: make fileblock fileblock `cat readfiles` | sort -n | cut -f2 > sortedfiles and use sortedfiles as filelist for readahead as before -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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/etc/rc.d/init.d/haldaemon /etc/rc.d/init.d/iptables /etc/rc.d/init.d/irqbalance /etc/rc.d/init.d/isdn /etc/rc.d/init.d/kudzu /etc/rc.d/init.d/mdmonitor /etc/rc.d/init.d/mDNSResponder /etc/rc.d/init.d/messagebus /etc/rc.d/init.d/netfs /etc/rc.d/init.d/network /etc/rc.d/init.d/nfslock /etc/rc.d/init.d/nifd /etc/rc.d/init.d/pcmcia /etc/rc.d/init.d/portmap /etc/rc.d/init.d/rhnsd /etc/rc.d/init.d/rpcgssd /etc/rc.d/init.d/rpcidmapd /etc/rc.d/init.d/rpcsvcgssd /etc/rc.d/init.d/sendmail /etc/rc.d/init.d/smartd /etc/rc.d/init.d/sshd /etc/rc.d/init.d/xfs /etc/rc.d/init.d/xinetd /etc/rc.d/rc /etc/rc.d/rc5.d /etc/rc.d/rc.local /etc/resolv.conf /etc/rhgb/temp/display /etc/rhgb/temp/rhgb-console /etc/rhgb/temp/XFree86.0.log /etc/rpc /etc/security/console.perms /etc/security/limits.conf /etc/security/pam_env.conf /etc/selinux/config /etc/services /etc/shadow /etc/smartd.conf /etc/ssh/moduli /etc/ssh/sshd_config /etc/ssh/ssh_host_dsa_key /etc/ssh/ssh_host_key /etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key 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Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From karl.vogel at telenet.be Sat Nov 20 18:49:12 2004 From: karl.vogel at telenet.be (karl.vogel at telenet.be) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:49:12 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> (Arjan van de Ven's message of "Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:47:35 +0100") References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: Arjan van de Ven writes: > On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 12:06 +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: >> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 08:36 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: >> > > There's a 20 MB load of files in your readahead list and they are being >> > > read for 15 seconds. I guess a 26.60 MB/sec 'hdparm -t' suggests room >> > > for improvement? Note that this is on a 4200 RPM drive. >> > >> > hmm yeah there ought to be room; I'll need to think about how to use that >> > though. >> >> Yeah I guess the fact that disk caches are loaded on a per-file basis >> doesn't help either. Because in theory: stat-ing your list takes about >> 3 sec and readahead on a tarball is instantaneous (both of course >> without boot-time readahead). > > ok here is another try; I hacked up a tool to sort the list in disk > order. > > use it like this: > > make fileblock > fileblock `cat readfiles` | sort -n | cut -f2 > sortedfiles > > and use sortedfiles as filelist for readahead as before I'm wondering.. What would be the most efficient: readahead of files or readahead of diskblocks?! ie.. I was thinking of the following: Have the kernel dump the I/O blocks to the kernel log (klogd shouldn't be running for obvious reasons): # echo 1 >/proc/sys/vm/block_dump Then using that list to preload the blocks at startup (using POSIX_FADV_RANDOM on the block device to prevent it from doing a readahead). From jsyd at nt-automaatio.fi Sat Nov 20 19:13:16 2004 From: jsyd at nt-automaatio.fi (Jari =?iso-8859-1?Q?Syd=E4nmaa?=) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:13:16 +0200 Subject: New kernel for FC2 and FC3 Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041120205305.01ddc970@217.140.167.50> Hello All I have problems whit FC2 and FC3 new kernel. I have four hard disk (20 Gb, 40Gb, 200Gb and (serial ata) 200Gb). After kernel update my system not startup!!! If I use only one hard disk all work, but if I use all four hard disk after boot it will be a "kernel panic" and system stop!!! Could somebody help me? Best regards Jari Syd?nmaa From davej at redhat.com Sat Nov 20 19:19:38 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:19:38 -0500 Subject: New kernel for FC2 and FC3 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20041120205305.01ddc970@217.140.167.50> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041120205305.01ddc970@217.140.167.50> Message-ID: <20041120191938.GA25304@redhat.com> On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 09:13:16PM +0200, Jari Syd?nmaa wrote: > Hello All > > I have problems whit FC2 and FC3 new kernel. I have four hard disk (20 Gb, > 40Gb, 200Gb and (serial ata) 200Gb). After kernel update my system not > startup!!! If I use only one hard disk all work, but if I use all four hard > disk after boot it will be a "kernel panic" and system stop!!! Could > somebody help me? get the updates from updates-testing (moving to updates proper today hopefully) they fix this problem. Dave From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Sat Nov 20 19:21:10 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:21:10 +0100 Subject: Various Fedora Extra changes (mailing list?), plus is APT now deprecated? In-Reply-To: <1100968885.21276.25.camel@localhost.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1100968885.21276.25.camel@localhost.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <20041120202110.10b56926.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:41:26 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > I guess this e-mail is a long time in coming. Please understand I have > the utmost and sincerest respect for everyone's hard work, but it's time > to ask some tough questions. > > First off, I want to point out this 2004Sep19 post to Fedora-Devel: > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-September/msg00879.html > > So where is this announce list? http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-extras-announce-list As most (or all) new lists, it takes some time until somebody includes it in the public lists directory. > Or is there a discussion list? Or is > the traffic part of fedora-devel now (I assume not)? Until announced otherwise, Fedora Extras development is discussed on fedora-devel-list (since the old fedora-devel at fedora.us list was closed), and Fedora Extras related other topics can go on fedora-list. Michael P.S. As always, I post this as a Fedora Project contributor, not as any kind of official spokesman. If you can't live with that, search for access for more accurate information. ;) -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.678_FC3 loadavg: 1.36 1.18 0.95 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pmatilai at welho.com Sat Nov 20 19:25:38 2004 From: pmatilai at welho.com (Panu Matilainen) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:25:38 +0200 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 11:56 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > >On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 08:49 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > > > > > >>Are there any other known deficient implementations that might > >>meaningfully be > >>removed in FC4? > >> > >> > > > >we should consider replacing/rewriting up2date realistically... > > > > > And we need to add apt-rpm to FC4 and watch the depsolver battles > proceed to their appropriate > end points. > > FC4 is the perfect stadium. > > I volunteer to package apt-rpm as Magister Ludi ... Somebody would need to add support for the new repodata format and multilib to apt first. I've some work done on both but far from working and/or acceptable in reality. Add to that the fact that Conectiva is working on yet-another-depsolver with intent to replace apt (http://distro2.conectiva.com.br/pipermail/apt-rpm/2004- October/002580.html) ... time is probably better spent adding the missing pieces to yum instead. - Panu - From rdieter at math.unl.edu Sat Nov 20 20:58:07 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:58:07 -0600 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> Message-ID: <419FAFDF.3010004@math.unl.edu> Panu Matilainen wrote: > On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 11:56 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: >>And we need to add apt-rpm to FC4 and watch the depsolver battles >>proceed to their appropriate >>end points. >> >>FC4 is the perfect stadium. >> >>I volunteer to package apt-rpm as Magister Ludi ... > > > Somebody would need to add support for the new repodata format and > multilib to apt first. IMO, this shouldn't be a blocker for release (at least for non-muiltilib archs). -- Rex From rdieter at math.unl.edu Sat Nov 20 20:58:59 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:58:59 -0600 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <419FAFDF.3010004@math.unl.edu> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FAFDF.3010004@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <419FB013.4080300@math.unl.edu> Rex Dieter wrote: > Panu Matilainen wrote: > >> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 11:56 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > > >>> And we need to add apt-rpm to FC4 and watch the depsolver battles >>> proceed to their appropriate >>> end points. >>> >>> FC4 is the perfect stadium. >>> >>> I volunteer to package apt-rpm as Magister Ludi ... >> >> >> >> Somebody would need to add support for the new repodata format and >> multilib to apt first. > > > IMO, this shouldn't be a blocker for release (at least for non-muiltilib > archs). For release to Fedora Extras, not FC4 of course. -- Rex From jsyd at nt-automaatio.fi Sat Nov 20 21:05:29 2004 From: jsyd at nt-automaatio.fi (Jari =?iso-8859-1?Q?Syd=E4nmaa?=) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 23:05:29 +0200 Subject: New kernel for FC2 and FC3 In-Reply-To: <20041120191938.GA25304@redhat.com> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041120205305.01ddc970@217.140.167.50> <20041120191938.GA25304@redhat.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041120230134.01e50cc8@217.140.167.50> Yes I know!!! But I mean if somebody can fix kernel because old kernel have not like this problem. At 21:19 20.11.2004, you wrote: >On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 09:13:16PM +0200, Jari Syd?nmaa wrote: > > Hello All > > > > I have problems whit FC2 and FC3 new kernel. I have four hard disk (20 > Gb, > > 40Gb, 200Gb and (serial ata) 200Gb). After kernel update my system not > > startup!!! If I use only one hard disk all work, but if I use all four > hard > > disk after boot it will be a "kernel panic" and system stop!!! Could > > somebody help me? > >get the updates from updates-testing (moving to updates proper today >hopefully) >they fix this problem. > > Dave > >-- >fedora-devel-list mailing list >fedora-devel-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list From harry at shoka.net Sat Nov 20 21:47:33 2004 From: harry at shoka.net (Harry Moyes) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:47:33 +0000 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100987253.3916.679.camel@shoka> On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 23:43, Dave Jones wrote: > On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 06:29:40PM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > It also gets 'stuck' sometimes, making the user believe that everything > is up to date, whilst running up2date -l, or yum will find packages > that need updating. I've also seen it claim updates are available > that running up2date on the command line can't find. *boggle* I can confirm the same behaviour. > > The whole thing needs a bullet in its head imo. :/ It happily confirms that the 2.6.9-1.3 kernel installs correctly into my FC2 installation. But no 2.6.9-1.3 option is offered in the boot menu. After some puzzlement I tried installing the version from freshRPM's using Synaptic. This fails as well, but has the good grace to error, reporting that it is unable to generate an initrd, and reporting an error relating to a MegaRAID controller seems I have one of these megaraid: found 0x101e:0x1960:bus 2:slot 4:func 0 scsi0:Found MegaRAID controller at 0x2285f000, IRQ:185 and that kernel does not like it. Indeed I have no 2.6.9-1.3 initrd, which is clearly an issue, but the silent loss of the error, and worse still the confirmation of a correct install **when the update process clearly knew there was an issue** since it did not add the 2.8.9 kernel to the boot menu is seriously broken. HarryM From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Sat Nov 20 22:21:40 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 23:21:40 +0100 Subject: Latest kernels and megaraid module (was: Re: Boot poster challenge) In-Reply-To: <1100987253.3916.679.camel@shoka> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> <1100987253.3916.679.camel@shoka> Message-ID: <20041120232140.00b20b0a.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Harry Moyes wrote : > It happily confirms that the 2.6.9-1.3 kernel installs correctly into my > FC2 installation. > > But no 2.6.9-1.3 option is offered in the boot menu. > > After some puzzlement I tried installing the version from freshRPM's > using Synaptic. This fails as well, but has the good grace to error, > reporting that it is unable to generate an initrd, and reporting an > error relating to a MegaRAID controller > > seems I have one of these > > megaraid: found 0x101e:0x1960:bus 2:slot 4:func 0 > scsi0:Found MegaRAID controller at 0x2285f000, IRQ:185 > > and that kernel does not like it. > > Indeed I have no 2.6.9-1.3 initrd, which is clearly an issue, but > the silent loss of the error, and worse still the confirmation of > a correct install **when the update process clearly knew there was > an issue** since it did not add the 2.8.9 kernel to the boot menu > is seriously broken. I have quite a few machines running FC2 that run yum nightly to keep up to date, and they did install the latest kernel, and the output reported that the initrd wouldn't be created because no megaraid module was to be found. I haven't looked into this yet but either : - The module/driver isn't included and this is a serious bug. - The module has been renamed or support for those MegaRaid cards has been moved into another module... this is a bug also, but the remedy is to add more "glue" or some other non trivial mechanism to kernel updates. ...or I'm simply missing something ;-) Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.667.radeonfb Load : 0.71 0.97 0.56 From pmatilai at welho.com Sat Nov 20 22:40:35 2004 From: pmatilai at welho.com (Panu Matilainen) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:40:35 +0200 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <419FB013.4080300@math.unl.edu> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FAFDF.3010004@math.unl.edu> <419FB013.4080300@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1100990435.14058.2.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 14:58 -0600, Rex Dieter wrote: > Rex Dieter wrote: > > > Panu Matilainen wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 11:56 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > > > > > >>> And we need to add apt-rpm to FC4 and watch the depsolver battles > >>> proceed to their appropriate > >>> end points. > >>> > >>> FC4 is the perfect stadium. > >>> > >>> I volunteer to package apt-rpm as Magister Ludi ... > >> > >> > >> > >> Somebody would need to add support for the new repodata format and > >> multilib to apt first. > > > > > > IMO, this shouldn't be a blocker for release (at least for non-muiltilib > > archs). > > For release to Fedora Extras, not FC4 of course. For Extras it's irrelevant but I think JBJ was talking about adding apt- rpm to Core. - Panu - From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Sat Nov 20 22:50:49 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 23:50:49 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 18:47 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > Yeah I guess the fact that disk caches are loaded on a per-file basis > > doesn't help either. Because in theory: stat-ing your list takes about > > 3 sec and readahead on a tarball is instantaneous (both of course > > without boot-time readahead). > > ok here is another try; I hacked up a tool to sort the list in disk > order. Arjan, not quite the improvement I expected, but it does shave off an additional 2 seconds: http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/bootchart-sortreadahead.png This chart includes data from iostat (sysstat package). Notice how the disk is fully utilized (%util) during readahead, but the throughput (rkB/s) is *really* low. This could very well be a problem with my hard disk. hdparm seems fine though (and I checked the parameters before running readahead). Let me know if you'd find any other iostat columns useful in the chart. The log file is here: http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/boot.io.log.sortreadahead.gz Anyway, the bootchart scripts and source code will be on SourceForge tomorrow so people will be able to post their results. Thanks, -- Ziga From seabra at ksu.edu Sat Nov 20 23:03:18 2004 From: seabra at ksu.edu (Gustavo Seabra) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:03:18 -0600 Subject: Soudcard detection problem in FC3 Message-ID: <419FCD36.8020003@ksu.edu> Hi, I apologize if I'm posting it to the wrong place. I posted this message to the users' group, but noone seemd to have a clue about it, so this seems to be the last place to try. I'm sorry for the size, I just tried to put as much information as possible here. Here it goes. I did a clean intall of FC3 on a Dell Precision 410 Workstation (P-III 450MHz). According to the specs, it has an Intel 440 BX chipset with a 16 bit PnP Crystal 3D CS4237B audio controller (my guess is it's onboard). However, FC3 just dones't recognize the sound card. During the installation or startup, I don't get any messages, but I just don't get any sound. I've already tried adjusting all the volumes and, when I use the soundcard detection utility ("system-config-soundcard") I get the message "No soundcards detected". It seems as if Linux just doesn't detect my soundcard. The following lines were extracted from /var/log/messages : Nov 16 08:26:51 patroclus kernel: isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards... Nov 16 08:26:51 patroclus kernel: isapnp: Card 'CS4236B' Nov 16 08:26:51 patroclus kernel: isapnp: 1 Plug & Play card detected total which makes me belive the sound card was detected ok. But still no sound! This is what the Hardware Browser shows: Sound Cards: Selected Device: CS4236B - CSC000 [note that my soundcard should be CS4237B] Device Information Manufacturer: Unknown Driver: snd-cs4236 Unknownd Devices: Selected Device: CS4236B - CDC000f Device Information: Manufacturer: Unknown Driver: ns-558 Selected Device: CS4236B - CSC0010 Device Information: Manufacturer: Unknown Driver: Unknown Did anyone experience similar problems before? Is there a solution for it already? Thanks, -- -- ---------------------------------- Gustavo Seabra - Graduate Student Chemistry Department Kansas State University ---------------------------------- From harry at shoka.net Sat Nov 20 23:12:19 2004 From: harry at shoka.net (Harry Moyes) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 23:12:19 +0000 Subject: Latest kernels and megaraid module (was: Re: Boot poster challenge) In-Reply-To: <20041120232140.00b20b0a.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> <1100987253.3916.679.camel@shoka> <20041120232140.00b20b0a.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <1100992339.3916.719.camel@shoka> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 22:21, Matthias Saou wrote: > Harry Moyes wrote : > > I have quite a few machines running FC2 that run yum nightly to keep up to > date, and they did install the latest kernel, and the output reported that > the initrd wouldn't be created because no megaraid module was to be found. > I haven't looked into this yet but either : > - The module/driver isn't included and this is a serious bug. > - The module has been renamed or support for those MegaRaid cards has been > moved into another module... this is a bug also, but the remedy is to add > more "glue" or some other non trivial mechanism to kernel updates. > > ...or I'm simply missing something ;-) > I'm betting on a bug, but my bitch was not the bug in the new kernel, its the silent hiding of that error by up2date, and the misleading report of success. I removed the new kernel, and re ran up2date, and it still reported success despite the failure >:| So consider this a vote for a serious review of up2date. HarryM From n3npq at nc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 00:36:34 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:36:34 -0500 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <1100990435.14058.2.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FAFDF.3010004@math.unl.edu> <419FB013.4080300@math.unl.edu> <1100990435.14058.2.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> Message-ID: <419FE312.103@nc.rr.com> Panu Matilainen wrote: > >For Extras it's irrelevant but I think JBJ was talking about adding apt- >rpm to Core. > I was talking about adding to FC4, and there still appears to be interest, although perhaps in passing, considering the irony that I am suggesting adding apt-rpm to FC4 and you are suggesting unnecessary ;-) Implementing multilib in a depsolver is not that hard, one needs to check Provides: and Requires: color, and match iff the same color for each (or no color, that is the traditional rpm behavior). There were perhaps 10 places that required about 5 lines of code in rpmlib to make that happen. The harder problem was attaching dependencies to files that carry a elf32/elf64 color, but that is not an apt-rpm issue. There are a number of cheats to use repomd data only during initial package discovery, just like yum itself is doing. Alas, a Header is still the only ticket that rpmtsAddInstallElement() will punch for a ride through rpmlib, so yum is pulling the header using a HTTP GET with byte-range from the package, and the xml metadata is used to determine which headers (and packages) need to be pulled. Similar things could be done for apt-rpm. But I'm not at all sure how and when lack of multilib and repo-md support became critical deficiencies for depsolvers. There are many who love apt still, Fink on Mac OSX comes to mind. 73 de Jeff From perbj at stanford.edu Sun Nov 21 01:46:30 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:46:30 -0800 Subject: Latest kernels and megaraid module (was: Re: Boot poster challenge) In-Reply-To: <1100992339.3916.719.camel@shoka> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> <1100987253.3916.679.camel@shoka> <20041120232140.00b20b0a.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <1100992339.3916.719.camel@shoka> Message-ID: <1101001590.3312.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 23:12 +0000, Harry Moyes wrote: > I'm betting on a bug, but my bitch was not the bug in the new kernel, > its the silent hiding of that error by up2date, and the misleading > report of success. I removed the new kernel, and re ran up2date, > and it still reported success despite the failure >:| > > So consider this a vote for a serious review of up2date. The problem is that the initrd and the boot menu item is created when the kernel package is installed, in the post-install scripts. What happened was surely that the kernel installed fine but the post-install scripts failed. As far as I can tell there's no way to tell that the post-install scripts failed using RPM, so this really isn't up2date's fault, it's a limitation of rpm. /Per -- Per Bjornsson Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Nov 21 01:53:07 2004 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:53:07 -0500 Subject: Various Fedora Extra changes (mailing list?), plus is APT now deprecated? (various responses) Message-ID: <1100997553.7520.7.camel@localhost.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Michael Schwendt wrote: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-extras-announce-list > As most (or all) new lists, it takes some time until somebody includes > it in the public lists directory. Yeah, I couldn't find it here: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo I probably should have just tried variations until it came up, oh well. Michael Schwendt wrote: > Until announced otherwise, Fedora Extras development is discussed on > fedora-devel-list (since the old fedora-devel fedora us list was > closed), and Fedora Extras related other topics can go on fedora-list. Okay, I'll keep most of my Extras questions to fedora-devel then. [ Other than this follow-up ] William Hooper wrote: > APT has never been part of Fedora Core and has always been an "Extra". I understand this, but just was curious on the reasons for preferring YUM. Satish Balay wrote: > Also - does APT support the new metadata format? Ralf Corsepious wrote: > ATM, not that I know. Satish Balay wrote: > Or is this a yum only thing Ralf Corsepious wrote: > De-facto: Yes. Satish Balay wrote: > - which apt will never support? > (I thought the new format was a common thing for all tools) Satish Balay wrote: > There are rumors about people working on adding metadata repository > support to apt, but "I ain't seen nothin' yet" :) See, this is _exactly_ the info I'm looking for. Does anyone have some good links to these details? Appreciate it! -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- Subtotal Cost of Ownership (SCO) for Windows being less than Linux Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) assumes experts for the former, costly retraining for the latter, omitted "software assurance" costs in compatible desktop OS/apps for the former, no free/legacy reuse for latter, and no basic security, patch or downtime comparison at all. From pmatilai at welho.com Sun Nov 21 02:01:12 2004 From: pmatilai at welho.com (Panu Matilainen) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 04:01:12 +0200 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <419FE312.103@nc.rr.com> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FAFDF.3010004@math.unl.edu> <419FB013.4080300@math.unl.edu> <1100990435.14058.2.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FE312.103@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1101002472.14058.18.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 19:36 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > Panu Matilainen wrote: > > > > >For Extras it's irrelevant but I think JBJ was talking about adding apt- > >rpm to Core. > > > > I was talking about adding to FC4, and there still appears to be > interest, although perhaps in passing, > considering the irony that I am suggesting adding apt-rpm to FC4 and you > are suggesting unnecessary ;-) > > Implementing multilib in a depsolver is not that hard, one needs to > check Provides: and Requires: > color, and match iff the same color for each (or no color, that is the > traditional rpm behavior). There were > perhaps 10 places that required about 5 lines of code in rpmlib to make > that happen. The harder problem > was attaching dependencies to files that carry a elf32/elf64 color, but > that is not an apt-rpm issue. It's a nontrivial problem because of apt-rpm internal presentation of packages and their dependencies. 64bit vs 32bit packages are not an issue, the problem is specifically packages with identical name- (epoch:)version-release) which is something apt's internals do not handle well. Can be kinda worked around but it's hideously ugly stuff. > > There are a number of cheats to use repomd data only during initial > package discovery, just like yum itself > is doing. Alas, a Header is still the only ticket that > rpmtsAddInstallElement() will punch for a ride through > rpmlib, so yum is pulling the header using a HTTP GET with byte-range > from the package, and the xml > metadata is used to determine which headers (and packages) need to be > pulled. Similar things could > be done for apt-rpm. Well apt doesn't need the headers at all since it resolves the deps by itself and only uses rpmtsAddInstallElement() when preparing the real transaction. Adding the new repodata support to apt-rpm wouldn't be rocket science, it just needs somebody to put some effort into it and I find myself currently lacking the enthusiasm to do that. > > But I'm not at all sure how and when lack of multilib and repo-md > support became critical deficiencies > for depsolvers. There are many who love apt still, Fink on Mac OSX comes > to mind. Sure, people love and use it (for example the Lua-interface is a killer feature which yum currently lacks) but it's starting to seem like a dead end to me. - Panu - From n3npq at nc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 02:23:14 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:23:14 -0500 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <1101002472.14058.18.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FAFDF.3010004@math.unl.edu> <419FB013.4080300@math.unl.edu> <1100990435.14058.2.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FE312.103@nc.rr.com> <1101002472.14058.18.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> Message-ID: <419FFC12.8040207@nc.rr.com> Panu Matilainen wrote: >On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 19:36 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > > > >Sure, people love and use it (for example the Lua-interface is a killer >feature which yum currently lacks) but it's starting to seem like a dead >end to me. > So how should lua be made available to yum? Current implementation of lua in rpm is through %{lua: ...} macro constructs, grotesque mainly because of the necessity to preserver a "stable" and constant rpm-python interface. E.g. there is no way to simply expand a macro, one has to go through the baggage of hdr.sprintf() where rpmExpand() to invoke lua happens as side effect. That's obscure enough to pass for "stable", sigh. Easy enough to rip several layers off the above, what stops is no need to do so yet. Hum a few notes about what you'ld like to see lua used for in yum, please. I think lua has definite and positive benefits for rpm packaging, becuase for the first time rpmlib can run scripts without the baggage of scriptlet dependencies. Lots of dependencies would (will imho) simply melt away if lua rather than shell were used for the 20 or so common operations performed by package scriptlets. 73 de Jeff From n3npq at nc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 02:33:42 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:33:42 -0500 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <419FFC12.8040207@nc.rr.com> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FAFDF.3010004@math.unl.edu> <419FB013.4080300@math.unl.edu> <1100990435.14058.2.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FE312.103@nc.rr.com> <1101002472.14058.18.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FFC12.8040207@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <419FFE86.5020506@nc.rr.com> Jeff Johnson wrote: > Panu Matilainen wrote: > >> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 19:36 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: >> >> >> >> Sure, people love and use it (for example the Lua-interface is a killer >> feature which yum currently lacks) but it's starting to seem like a dead >> end to me. >> > > So how should lua be made available to yum? FWIW, I have a lua package, and (at one point in time) had permission to add to FC from notting. What is needed is someone more well versed in lua than I to design the file tree for attaching lua extensions, kinda like /usr/lib*/python2.4. You really don't want me making that call, it make no more send than having a C programmer design python bindings. I can certainly invent something that is not too surprising, but ... And credit where credit is due: Gustavo Niemeyer did the implementation of lua into rpm, and supplied me with most of what I know about Lua. 73 de Jeff From n3npq at nc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 02:37:15 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:37:15 -0500 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <419FFE86.5020506@nc.rr.com> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FAFDF.3010004@math.unl.edu> <419FB013.4080300@math.unl.edu> <1100990435.14058.2.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FE312.103@nc.rr.com> <1101002472.14058.18.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FFC12.8040207@nc.rr.com> <419FFE86.5020506@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <419FFF5B.4050406@nc.rr.com> Jeff Johnson wrote: > You really don't want me making that call, it make no more send than > having a C ... makes no more sense ... grrr, i can't type any more. 73 de Jeff From davej at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 03:23:48 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:23:48 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100987253.3916.679.camel@shoka> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116222337.GD26717@redhat.com> <20041116232816.6fd137e8@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <20041116223418.GG26717@redhat.com> <20041116232940.GW10721@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041116234350.GE8674@redhat.com> <1100987253.3916.679.camel@shoka> Message-ID: <20041121032348.GA9288@redhat.com> On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 09:47:33PM +0000, Harry Moyes wrote: > After some puzzlement I tried installing the version from freshRPM's > using Synaptic. This fails as well, but has the good grace to error, > reporting that it is unable to generate an initrd, and reporting an > error relating to a MegaRAID controller > > seems I have one of these > > megaraid: found 0x101e:0x1960:bus 2:slot 4:func 0 > scsi0:Found MegaRAID controller at 0x2285f000, IRQ:185 > > and that kernel does not like it. > > Indeed I have no 2.6.9-1.3 initrd, which is clearly an issue, but > the silent loss of the error, and worse still the confirmation of > a correct install **when the update process clearly knew there was > an issue** since it did not add the 2.8.9 kernel to the boot menu > is seriously broken. This is fixed in the -1.6 RPM in updates-testing. (Which is due to move to updates-proper) Dave From ivg2 at cornell.edu Sun Nov 21 04:56:31 2004 From: ivg2 at cornell.edu (Ivan Gyurdiev) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 23:56:31 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041120 changes In-Reply-To: <200411201245.iAKCjXK19344@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411201245.iAKCjXK19344@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101012991.26398.3.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> > glibc-2.3.3-81 > -------------- > * Fri Nov 19 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-81 > - don't use chunksize in <= 2 * SIZE_SZ free () checks > > * Fri Nov 19 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-80 > - update from CVS > - with -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2, prevent missing %N$ formats > - for -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 and %n in writable format string, > issue special error message instead of using the buffer overflow > detected one > - speedup regex searching with REG_NOSUB, add RE_NO_SUB, > speedup searching with nested subexps (BZ #544) > - block SIGCANCEL in NPTL timer_* helper thread > - further free () checking Java doesn't work anymore - it worked 2 or 3 days ago, so something broke it. Furthermore gdb is behaving strangely. This is the Sun JRE (jpackage). (gdb) run Starting program: /usr/bin/java (no debugging symbols found)...[Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled] [New Thread 1119936 (LWP 26481)] (no debugging symbols found)...(no debugging symbols found)...(no debugging symbols found)...Cannot find user-level thread for LWP 26481: generic error (gdb) bt Cannot fetch general-purpose registers for thread 1119936: generic error (gdb) kill Kill the program being debugged? (y or n) y /usr/src/build/481063-i386/BUILD/gdb+dejagnu-20040607/gdb/lin- lwp.c:1796: internal-error: kill_wait_callback: Assertion `pid == -1 && errno == ECHILD' failed. A problem internal to GDB has been detected, further debugging may prove unreliable. Quit this debugging session? (y or n) y /usr/src/build/481063-i386/BUILD/gdb+dejagnu-20040607/gdb/lin- lwp.c:1796: internal-error: kill_wait_callback: Assertion `pid == -1 && errno == ECHILD' failed. A problem internal to GDB has been detected, further debugging may prove unreliable. Create a core file of GDB? (y or n) n -- Ivan Gyurdiev Cornell University From ad+lists at uni-x.org Sun Nov 21 05:01:54 2004 From: ad+lists at uni-x.org (Alexander Dalloz) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:01:54 +0100 Subject: New kernel for FC2 and FC3 In-Reply-To: <20041120191938.GA25304@redhat.com> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041120205305.01ddc970@217.140.167.50> <20041120191938.GA25304@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101013314.6829.146.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Am Sa, den 20.11.2004 schrieb Dave Jones um 20:19: > get the updates from updates-testing (moving to updates proper today hopefully) > they fix this problem. > > Dave Dave, as a short feedback: the new kernel from updates-testing runs fine here. In contrast to the current FC2 kernel which caused 2 oopses (1 time while a manual slocate run, second time on shutdown when stopping the network) and X freezes in conjunction with the latest NVidia closed source driver. 2.6.9-1.6_FC2 with the patched 6111 NVidia driver runs solid since >please see my signature< and even the APIC error on CPU0: 40(40)...: 32 Time(s) messages I had quite often in the syslog up to using the 2.6.8-1.521 are gone now. Alexander -- Alexander Dalloz | Enger, Germany | new address - new key: 0xB366A773 legal statement: http://www.uni-x.org/legal.html Fedora GNU/Linux Core 2 (Tettnang) on Athlon kernel 2.6.9-1.6_FC2smp Serendipity 06:01:38 up 1 day, 49 users, load average: 0.41, 0.46, 0.36 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From pmatilai at welho.com Sun Nov 21 05:45:05 2004 From: pmatilai at welho.com (Panu Matilainen) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 07:45:05 +0200 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <419FFC12.8040207@nc.rr.com> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FAFDF.3010004@math.unl.edu> <419FB013.4080300@math.unl.edu> <1100990435.14058.2.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FE312.103@nc.rr.com> <1101002472.14058.18.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FFC12.8040207@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1101015905.14058.28.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 21:23 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > Panu Matilainen wrote: > > >On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 19:36 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > > > > > > > >Sure, people love and use it (for example the Lua-interface is a killer > >feature which yum currently lacks) but it's starting to seem like a dead > >end to me. > > > > So how should lua be made available to yum? > > Current implementation of lua in rpm is through %{lua: ...} macro > constructs, > grotesque mainly because of the necessity to preserver a "stable" and > constant > rpm-python interface. E.g. there is no way to simply expand a macro, one > has to > go through the baggage of hdr.sprintf() where rpmExpand() to invoke lua > happens > as side effect. That's obscure enough to pass for "stable", sigh. > I'm not talking about making Lua available to yum, I'm talking about the mechanism which is *the* killer feature of apt-rpm, not the language itself. I'd take python over lua any day, it's just that Lua is easier and smaller to embed compared to python. In yum's case Lua doesn't make any sense, it's just a matter of allowing "external" python scripts to affect yum's functionality at certain predefined points. That's what apt's lua-interface is all about, and I know something like that is being planned for yum (IIRC under the name "xtriggers" or somesuch) > Easy enough to rip several layers off the above, what stops is no need > to do so yet. > > Hum a few notes about what you'ld like to see lua used for in yum, > please. I think > lua has definite and positive benefits for rpm packaging, becuase for > the first time > rpmlib can run scripts without the baggage of scriptlet dependencies. > Lots of dependencies > would (will imho) simply melt away if lua rather than shell were used > for the 20 or so > common operations performed by package scriptlets. Again, Lua has zero to do with this, it's all about adding similar customization possiblity to yum that's available in apt-rpm currently. - Panu - From symbiont at berlios.de Sun Nov 21 07:40:34 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:40:34 +0800 Subject: Latest kernels and megaraid module (was: Re: Boot poster challenge) In-Reply-To: <1101001590.3312.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100992339.3916.719.camel@shoka> <1101001590.3312.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200411211540.34929.symbiont@berlios.de> On Sunday 21 November 2004 09:46, Per Bjornsson wrote: > As far as I can tell there's no way to tell that the > post-install scripts failed using RPM, so this really isn't up2date's > fault, it's a limitation of rpm. Any non-zero return code in scriptlets causes RPM to issue a statement about it. When uninstalling, RPMs simply don't uninstall if the postun scriptlets fail. I've not experimented with $?, but I would assume up2date could fully detect these issues as long as the scriptlets produce appropriate error returns. -- -jeff From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Sun Nov 21 09:48:11 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:48:11 +0100 Subject: prelink issues In-Reply-To: <20041119212847.7f63e38f.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1100895019.5454.22.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20041119212847.7f63e38f.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <1101030490.1077.7.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 21:28, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:10:19 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > > Has anyone else seen any odd issues with their packages that might be > > related to prelink? I wonder if there's a common thread here. > > I've noticed users [in other message boards] who have had various > applications and/or GNOME segfault until they started the prelink cron > job file manually and let it complete. I noticed this and some debugging showed that those gnome apps - eggcups, and gnome-volume-manager in this case - segfaulted on hal_initialize(). rpm -V hal screemed about dependecy changes. To run prelink on hal binaries fixed this issue. -- Iago Rubio - Home page * http://www.iagorubio.com - Last project * http://cssed.sourceforge.net - GPG Keyserv * pgp.rediris.es id=0x909BD4DD -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dag at wieers.com Sun Nov 21 09:50:59 2004 From: dag at wieers.com (Dag Wieers) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:50:59 +0100 (CET) Subject: Latest kernels and megaraid module (was: Re: Boot poster challenge) In-Reply-To: <200411211540.34929.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100992339.3916.719.camel@shoka> <1101001590.3312.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200411211540.34929.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Jeff Pitman wrote: > On Sunday 21 November 2004 09:46, Per Bjornsson wrote: > > As far as I can tell there's no way to tell that the > > post-install scripts failed using RPM, so this really isn't up2date's > > fault, it's a limitation of rpm. > > Any non-zero return code in scriptlets causes RPM to issue a statement > about it. When uninstalling, RPMs simply don't uninstall if the postun > scriptlets fail. I've not experimented with $?, but I would assume > up2date could fully detect these issues as long as the scriptlets > produce appropriate error returns. Few people know this is functionality of the shell. See the -e option. What is a problem though, is that rpm seldom allows you to see what failed. Just like rpmbuild does not (from the return code) give you a clue what happened and your only resort is to process the output :/ -- dag wieers, dag at wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] From ssc at coolspot.de Sun Nov 21 09:56:05 2004 From: ssc at coolspot.de (Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:56:05 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver Message-ID: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> Dear list, I work for a german company which aims now to bring a Windows client to the linux world due to repeated requests of our customers. The development is in early stage and I'm gathering information to create an install package for the customers. The problem is that the software depends on a piece of usb hardware which does some encrpytion. I get the driver by signing an NDA and therefor we can't release it openly. The problem I have now, that the driver needs to be rebuild with every new kernel version, which is released. Is there a way to avoid that ? I have developed kernel drivers for Linux for 2.2.x kernels, but things seem to have changed .... Any help is appreciated, Stefan Sonnenberg P.S.: I think many problems have such a problem, and I believe that Linux success in the customer world depends on solving such problems. From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 11:02:54 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:02:54 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> Message-ID: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 10:56 +0100, Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens wrote: > The problem I have now, that the driver needs to be > rebuild with every new kernel version, which is released. > Is there a way to avoid that ? > I have developed kernel drivers for Linux for 2.2.x kernels, > but things seem to have changed .... Note that you really should talk to your lawyers about this; it's not entirely clear if such non-GPL kernel components are legal or not (personally I don't think they are). For example, see the statements from Linus Torvalds on this at http://people.redhat.com/arjanv/COPYING.modules . I also wonder if the *driver* or the hardware has the "valuable IP" that needs to be protected, most of the time it's the hardware after all. Even if your lawyers think you're in the clear, it's a major pain. Well that's actually an encouragement to make driver vendors consider if the IP they try to protect really is worth the hassle... because a hassle it is. ABI and API change with every kernel release. And lots of people run *lots* of different kernels, including kernels with really weird patchkits. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ssc at coolspot.de Sun Nov 21 11:18:03 2004 From: ssc at coolspot.de (Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:18:03 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> Thank you for your answer. Ok, even if the hardware vendor decides to open the driver : Will it be included ? In every kernel ? In every distribution ? For only a few (about several thousand) users ? Would is make a difference ? Why is there no really *fix* api *and* abi for all kernels 2.6.x ? For example, you write a kernel driver for e.g. Solaris 9; it will be supported all the livetime of Solaris. I think Linux really lacks such a feature. The main problem is to provide an easy way to distribute such drivers. Thanks for answering. Am Sonntag, 21. November 2004 12:02 schrieb Arjan van de Ven: > On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 10:56 +0100, Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens wrote: > > The problem I have now, that the driver needs to be > > rebuild with every new kernel version, which is released. > > Is there a way to avoid that ? > > I have developed kernel drivers for Linux for 2.2.x kernels, > > but things seem to have changed .... > > Note that you really should talk to your lawyers about this; it's not > entirely clear if such non-GPL kernel components are legal or not > (personally I don't think they are). > For example, see the statements from Linus Torvalds on this at > http://people.redhat.com/arjanv/COPYING.modules . > > I also wonder if the *driver* or the hardware has the "valuable IP" that > needs to be protected, most of the time it's the hardware after all. > > > Even if your lawyers think you're in the clear, it's a major pain. Well > that's actually an encouragement to make driver vendors consider if the > IP they try to protect really is worth the hassle... because a hassle > it is. ABI and API change with every kernel release. And lots of people > run *lots* of different kernels, including kernels with really weird > patchkits. From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 11:22:29 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:22:29 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> Message-ID: <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 12:18:03PM +0100, Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens wrote: > Thank you for your answer. > Ok, even if the hardware vendor decides to open the driver : > Will it be included ? if it's of good enough quality then yes > In every kernel ? > In every distribution ? yes > For only a few (about several thousand) users ? we have drivers for fewer users ;) > Why is there no really *fix* api *and* abi for all kernels > 2.6.x ? because that stiffles innovation for too much. From strange at nsk.no-ip.org Sun Nov 21 11:49:06 2004 From: strange at nsk.no-ip.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:49:06 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041121114906.GA21872@nsk.no-ip.org> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 12:22:29PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 12:18:03PM +0100, Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens wrote: > > Thank you for your answer. > > Ok, even if the hardware vendor decides to open the driver : > > Will it be included ? > > if it's of good enough quality then yes > > > In every kernel ? > > In every distribution ? > > yes > > > For only a few (about several thousand) users ? > > we have drivers for fewer users ;) > > > Why is there no really *fix* api *and* abi for all kernels > > 2.6.x ? > > because that stiffles innovation for too much. But libusb is stable, is it not? And LGPL. Meaning that it's possible to develop a closed driver for the specified USB device. Regards, Luciano Rocha -- Consciousness: that annoying time between naps. From buildsys at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 12:50:46 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 07:50:46 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041121 changes Message-ID: <200411211250.iALCoka26548@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: apmd-1:3.0.2-25 --------------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 1:3.0.2-25 - Convert French man page for apmsleep to UTF-8 esound-1:0.2.35-3 ----------------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 1:0.2.35-3 - Fix manual word wrapping in esd-config.1 * Wed Aug 18 2004 John (J5) Palmieri - update to 0.2.35 * Tue Jun 15 2004 Elliot Lee - rebuilt file-4.10-4 ----------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 4.10-4 - Convert libmagic.3 to UTF-8 gaim-1:1.0.3-3 -------------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Warren Togami 1.0.3-3 - make gcc4 conditional * Sat Nov 20 2004 Daniel Reed 1.0.3-2 - Rebuild using gcc4 - To revert, remove "BuildRequires: gcc4" and "CC=gcc4" ghostscript-7.07-34 ------------------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 7.07-34 - Convert man pages to UTF-8 glibc-2.3.3-82 -------------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-82 - update from CVS - some malloc () checking - libpthread.a object dependency cleanups (#115157) - fix for -std=c89 -pedantic-errors (#140132) groff-1.18.1.1-4 ---------------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 1.18.1.1-4 - Convert man pages to UTF-8 isdn4k-utils-3.2-20 ------------------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 3.2-20 - Convert imontty.8 to UTF-8 jwhois-3.2.2-8 -------------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 3.2.2-8 - Convert Swedish man page to UTF-8 parted-1.6.16-3 --------------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 1.6.16-3 - Convert pt_BR-parted.8 to UTF-8 rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041121 --------------------------- sane-backends-1.0.15-3 ---------------------- * Sat Nov 20 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 1.0.15-3 - Convert man pages to UTF-8 * Tue Nov 16 2004 Tim Waugh - Require hotplug's remover to work. selinux-policy-strict-1.19.4-1 ------------------------------ * Sun Nov 21 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-4-1 - Upgrade to match upstream - Require policycoreutils selinux-policy-targeted-1.19.4-1 -------------------------------- * Sun Nov 21 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-4-1 - Upgrade to match upstream - Require policycoreutils From ssc at coolspot.de Sun Nov 21 13:00:12 2004 From: ssc at coolspot.de (Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:00:12 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200411211400.12705.ssc@coolspot.de> Many thanks for your replies. I got lot of them, even besides the mailing list. Now I think mostly it is a "political" decision to made by our leaders, mostly *every* solution will bind man power and such. I understand (and acknowledge fully) the principals behind the kernel design and why it is crucial to have drivers open sourced. But from a buiseness point of view, it not possible to open anything for most companies (NDA, patents etc) and MS makes it very easy to not have to under the Windows platform. It is absolutely normal and daily buiseness. I think even Linus must at some point need to accept that there is a demand for such drivers, if it is desirable or not. OpenBSD's Theo need to accept that even from Intel and the wireless firmware. Lawyers lead the planet, that's a fact, a sad one indeed. Hoping for better times. And thanks for all of your replies. Am Sonntag, 21. November 2004 12:22 schrieb Arjan van de Ven: > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 12:18:03PM +0100, Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens wrote: > > Thank you for your answer. > > Ok, even if the hardware vendor decides to open the driver : > > Will it be included ? > > if it's of good enough quality then yes > > > In every kernel ? > > In every distribution ? > > yes > > > For only a few (about several thousand) users ? > > we have drivers for fewer users ;) > > > Why is there no really *fix* api *and* abi for all kernels > > 2.6.x ? > > because that stiffles innovation for too much. From symbiont at berlios.de Sun Nov 21 14:15:18 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:15:18 +0800 Subject: Latest kernels and megaraid module (was: Re: Boot poster challenge) In-Reply-To: References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200411211540.34929.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <200411212215.18216.symbiont@berlios.de> On Sunday 21 November 2004 17:50, Dag Wieers wrote: > What is a problem though, is that rpm seldom allows you to see what > failed. Just like rpmbuild does not (from the return code) give you a > clue what happened and your only resort is to process the output :/ Hard to build a good framework when you can do just about anything in a scriptlet. I mean, one could put "awktris" in the scriptlet for kernels while the user waits for the hardlink step. ;) In other words, any old scriptlet can return any old return code and enforcing a rule in up2date based on a subset would be next to impossible. -- -jeff From mike at navi.cx Sun Nov 21 14:21:38 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:21:38 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:22:29 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > because that stiffles innovation for too much. Stability is about managing change, not preventing it. Unfortunately the kernel developers routinely conflate the two. There are plenty of innovative programs with clean code that nonetheless provide stable interfaces. For some reason some people believe the kernel is special and the rules that apply to the rest of the platform (glibc, gtk, X protocol etc) don't apply to them. From ssc at coolspot.de Sun Nov 21 14:49:23 2004 From: ssc at coolspot.de (Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:49:23 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200411211549.23792.ssc@coolspot.de> How true that is ... Am Sonntag, 21. November 2004 15:21 schrieb Mike Hearn: > Unfortunately the kernel developers routinely conflate the two. There are > plenty of innovative programs with clean code that nonetheless provide > stable interfaces. For some reason some people believe the kernel is > special and the rules that apply to the rest of the platform (glibc, gtk, > X protocol etc) don't apply to them. From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 14:57:45 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:57:45 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 14:21 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:22:29 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > because that stiffles innovation for too much. > > Stability is about managing change, not preventing it. > > > > Unfortunately the kernel developers routinely conflate the two. There are > plenty of innovative programs with clean code that nonetheless provide > stable interfaces. For some reason some people believe the kernel is > special and the rules that apply to the rest of the platform (glibc, gtk, > X protocol etc) don't apply to them. actually we do. We keep our *designed* interface to userspace rather constant and stable. That is not the same as the *internal* design of the kernel. That we keep changing and improving all the time. And that's fine, that is why we have (almost) all drivers in the main tarbal/rpm and.. well.. the rest is required to be GPL anyway in principle so can be adjusted. At least that's the intention. Some people think they can get away with not being GPL while still using and depending on deep kernel internals; well... to be honest the pain is on them though. As for your comparison to X, glibc, gtk etc, those EXTERNAL interfaces remain stable, just like the kernel external interface is. But those projects do change the internal interfaces a lot.. just they don't allow anyone to see it, unlike the kernel where modules do get to see it. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mike at navi.cx Sun Nov 21 15:09:08 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:09:08 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:57:45 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > actually we do. We keep our *designed* interface to userspace rather > constant and stable. Yes, you guys do a good job of that. > That is not the same as the *internal* design of the kernel. That we > keep changing and improving all the time. And that's fine, that is why > we have (almost) all drivers in the main tarbal/rpm and.. well.. the Well, almost all except: - nvidia binary driver, required for 3D on a large number of peoples systems - ndiswrapper, required for compatibility with a large number of wireless cards - all the drivers that aren't in tree because they don't meet the coding standards etc, of which there are a bunch around on sourceforge - probably more examples I'm not aware of. > rest is required to be GPL anyway in principle so can be adjusted. I thought binary modules were OK, hence the whole GPL vs non-GPL symbol versioning system? > At least that's the intention. Some people think they can get away with > not being GPL while still using and depending on deep kernel internals; > well... to be honest the pain is on them though. Actually the pain is on the users. You just don't see it. eg, users don't use kernel upgrades because X refuses to load because the nvidia kernel module was rejected. Users learn that if they choose the old option on the grub bootup screen things work. If they choose the new one, things break. Solution? Always use the old kernel. This sort of logic is very common amongst less than technical users. > As for your comparison to X, glibc, gtk etc, those EXTERNAL interfaces > remain stable, just like the kernel external interface is. The X server has provided a stable driver interface for a very long time now. GTK provides a stable interface for theming engines, glibc for DNS resolver plugins and so on. Clearly the kernel *does* provide an interface to modules, which developers have to use to get support for their hardware on Linux, the fact that it's a hopelessly unstable interface just causes pain for all concerned. It doesn't magically reverse policy decisions taken for business/legal reasons. A better system would be to actually use the concept of stable/unstable trees, eg so a stable kernel module ABI subset is maintained throughout the 2.6 series then broken again at 2.8. The kernel module interfaces can continue to evolve, but users still get some stability. As it is the concept of stable/unstable trees is pretty much unofficial and not really formally specified anywhere. > But those > projects do change the internal interfaces a lot.. just they don't allow > anyone to see it, unlike the kernel where modules do get to see it. As already pointed out, these projects actually make it clear which interfaces are internal and which aren't. Whether you like it or not, parts of the module interface aren't internal, they are being used by external developers sometimes because they have no choice. thanks -mike From n3npq at nc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 15:22:40 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:22:40 -0500 Subject: RFR: more FC4 Requests In-Reply-To: <1101015905.14058.28.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> References: <1100583300.4549.3.camel@darjeeling.compton.net> <419F4B55.3070607@nc.rr.com> <1100960483.2639.36.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <419F7730.70503@nc.rr.com> <1100978738.20170.27.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FAFDF.3010004@math.unl.edu> <419FB013.4080300@math.unl.edu> <1100990435.14058.2.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FE312.103@nc.rr.com> <1101002472.14058.18.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> <419FFC12.8040207@nc.rr.com> <1101015905.14058.28.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> Message-ID: <41A0B2C0.5020708@nc.rr.com> Panu Matilainen wrote: >On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 21:23 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > > >>Panu Matilainen wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 19:36 -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>Sure, people love and use it (for example the Lua-interface is a killer >>>feature which yum currently lacks) but it's starting to seem like a dead >>>end to me. >>> >>> >>> >>So how should lua be made available to yum? >> >>Current implementation of lua in rpm is through %{lua: ...} macro >>constructs, >>grotesque mainly because of the necessity to preserver a "stable" and >>constant >>rpm-python interface. E.g. there is no way to simply expand a macro, one >>has to >>go through the baggage of hdr.sprintf() where rpmExpand() to invoke lua >>happens >>as side effect. That's obscure enough to pass for "stable", sigh. >> >> >> > >I'm not talking about making Lua available to yum, I'm talking about the >mechanism which is *the* killer feature of apt-rpm, not the language >itself. I'd take python over lua any day, it's just that Lua is easier >and smaller to embed compared to python. In yum's case Lua doesn't make >any sense, it's just a matter of allowing "external" python scripts to >affect yum's functionality at certain predefined points. That's what >apt's lua-interface is all about, and I know something like that is >being planned for yum (IIRC under the name "xtriggers" or somesuch) > > I'm not talking about lua either. I'm talking about how an existing embedded and scriptable language (which happens to not be called Forth ;-) in rpmlib might be made available to applications like yum that use rpmlib in order to incorporate what you call a killer feature, fine grained hooking within an installer state machine. > > >>Easy enough to rip several layers off the above, what stops is no need >>to do so yet. >> >>Hum a few notes about what you'ld like to see lua used for in yum, >>please. I think >>lua has definite and positive benefits for rpm packaging, becuase for >>the first time >>rpmlib can run scripts without the baggage of scriptlet dependencies. >>Lots of dependencies >>would (will imho) simply melt away if lua rather than shell were used >>for the 20 or so >>common operations performed by package scriptlets. >> >> > >Again, Lua has zero to do with this, it's all about adding similar >customization possiblity to yum that's available in apt-rpm currently. > > Yup, lua has zero to do with this discussion becuase lua is not called "python" just like rpm is not called "apt" or "yum". 73 de Jeff From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 15:29:12 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:29:12 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> > > rest is required to be GPL anyway in principle so can be adjusted. > > I thought binary modules were OK, hence the whole GPL vs non-GPL symbol > versioning system? you think wrong most likely. It kinda depends on which lawyer you talk to, and on in which country that lawyer is. But there is no explicit permission to do non-GPL kernel modules. At least not from most authors of the kernel, and certainly not for the parts of which I own the copyright. It all is a bit of a gray area (eg the "which lawyer" part), the _GPL exports are a start to make it clear that certain parts sure are NOT part of the gray area. > > At least that's the intention. Some people think they can get away with > > not being GPL while still using and depending on deep kernel internals; > > well... to be honest the pain is on them though. > > Actually the pain is on the users. You just don't see it. people who choose to use binary modules suffer, I am fully aware of that. I rather not have them suffer that. But in a way they choose that pain when they choose to start using binary modules. But look at it with a slightly longer pervue; about half the bugs reported against the kernel are in the drivers. The fact that the driver sources are available gives us a shot at fixing those, just as the availability of the core source allows us to fix bugs there. If the drivers weren't part of that, their quality would lag WAY behind. (And to be honest, you do see that in several binary drivers: bad quality. Nvidia seems to be improving somewhat there but they didn't always have that; others are still struggling). > > As for your comparison to X, glibc, gtk etc, those EXTERNAL interfaces > > remain stable, just like the kernel external interface is. > > The X server has provided a stable driver interface for a very long time > now. GTK provides a stable interface for theming engines, glibc for DNS > resolver plugins and so on. Clearly the kernel *does* provide an interface btw the glibc NSS abi is changing all the time ... X is about to change their driver interfaces because they suffered too much bitrot. > > But those > > projects do change the internal interfaces a lot.. just they don't allow > > anyone to see it, unlike the kernel where modules do get to see it. > > As already pointed out, these projects actually make it clear which > interfaces are internal and which aren't. Whether you like it or not, > parts of the module interface aren't internal, they are being used by > external developers sometimes because they have no choice. they do have a choice. they can do things on the other side of the designed stable interface. For example, NVidia could do this. Their IP is in code that easily can be on the userspace side (the open source DRM modules prove this, they do it that way). They need a very thin layer in the kernel for support in that scenario, which is so thin that it doesn't contain IP. But they *choose* to not do that. That's their choice. With that, they choose the pain and problems that come with that approach. They not only chose for themselves but also for all their customers who want to use their 3D engine. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mike at navi.cx Sun Nov 21 15:40:36 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:40:36 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:29:12 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: >> > At least that's the intention. Some people think they can get away with >> > not being GPL while still using and depending on deep kernel internals; >> > well... to be honest the pain is on them though. >> >> Actually the pain is on the users. You just don't see it. > > people who choose to use binary modules suffer, I am fully aware of > that. I rather not have them suffer that. But in a way they choose that > pain when they choose to start using binary modules. Sometimes the choice is like this. I bought a 3D game. I want to play it. a) Go back to Windows b) Use a binary driver on Linux > But look at it with a slightly longer pervue; about half the bugs > reported against the kernel are in the drivers. The fact that the driver > sources are available gives us a shot at fixing those, just as the > availability of the core source allows us to fix bugs there. Well this is just a generalisation of "all software should be open source". I tend to agree with that, it would be great if that were true. But it's not true, and there are no signs of it suddenly becoming true anytime soon. I'd also rather people open sourced their code due to the social benefits (everybody being able to fix bugs, share knowledge, implement new system-wide optimisations etc) rather than because the kernel made it a total pain in the ass to do otherwise. That's coercion not persuasion. > If the drivers weren't part of that, their quality would lag WAY behind. > (And to be honest, you do see that in several binary drivers: bad > quality. Nvidia seems to be improving somewhat there but they didn't > always have that; others are still struggling). Hm well, can't speak for others but the *only* problems I have with the nVidia drivers are when kernel upgrades break them. Last time it was 4k stacks, this time it's apparently udev. > btw the glibc NSS abi is changing all the time ... X is about to change > their driver interfaces because they suffered too much bitrot. Last time I looked in the X team were bending over backwards to avoid breaking the binary driver ABI. The huge changes to the rendering model brought by the COMPOSITE extension may in the end mean breaking backwards compatibility but there is a huge difference between breaking stuff just to rename a function and breaking stuff due to a core rendering model change. > they do have a choice. they can do things on the other side of the > designed stable interface. For example, NVidia could do this. I'm pretty sure they could not do this without an unacceptable performance loss. Perhaps an nVidia engineer should be asked, they are easy to contact. thanks -mike From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 15:42:45 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:42:45 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> Message-ID: <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 11:50:49PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > This chart includes data from iostat (sysstat package). Notice how the > disk is fully utilized (%util) during readahead, but the throughput > (rkB/s) is *really* low. This could very well be a problem with my hard > disk. hdparm seems fine though (and I checked the parameters before > running readahead). Disks are very very seek constrained. You get wonderful performance reading linear data. The moment you read a lot of scattered files or a file with a lot of segments you will get low performance - even more so on laptops than desktops From mike at mommabears.com Sun Nov 21 15:47:49 2004 From: mike at mommabears.com (MJang) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 07:47:49 -0800 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> Message-ID: <1101052070.6307.42.camel@suse1.site> Dear Stefan, On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 10:56 +0100, Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens wrote: > The problem is that the software depends on a piece > of usb hardware which does some encrpytion. > I get the driver by signing an NDA and therefor > we can't release it openly. I suspect the "correct" alternative is to set up a sourceforge project for the USB hardware. A lot of them do reverse engineering of proprietary drivers - if you sign the NDA, you'd need colleagues who do not sign such NDA, and some firewall between you and them. Proper configuration of such groups requires good legal advice. The alternative is to go with a solution (e.g. see linuxant.com) which would "taint" the kernel. > The problem I have now, that the driver needs to be > rebuild with every new kernel version, which is released. I think this is a "joy" associated with all drivers not included in the regular kernel or kernel modules. > Is there a way to avoid that ? I think the other answers you've received publicaly on this topic are excellent. Thanks, Mike > P.S.: > I think many problems have such a problem, > and I believe that Linux success in the customer world > depends on solving such problems. Great attitude - with more like you, we will overcome the monopoly. From avibrazil at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 15:49:32 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:49:32 -0200 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:09:08 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:57:45 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > At least that's the intention. Some people think they can get away with > > not being GPL while still using and depending on deep kernel internals; > > well... to be honest the pain is on them though. > > Actually the pain is on the users. You just don't see it. Developers tend to be a more or less far from users and their problems. Open Source nature makes innovation and development follow only the taste of the developers. While commercial software innovation are lead by business and user requirements, market pressure, etc. I don't know which model is better. Sometimes I think the second is better. But I do know that Mike is completely right, and HW vendors tend to not understand the reasons of "you have to" open source it all. So they simply don't spend their time working on Linux drivers because all of this user pain. So if they just say "it runs on Linux" on their product boxes, because it will be their phone that will ring when a user buys their HW to use in an extra-terrestrial Linux distribution. In the mean time, I still don't have Linux support for my stupid webcam :( Regards, Avi From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 15:55:47 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:55:47 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 10:42:45AM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 11:50:49PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > > This chart includes data from iostat (sysstat package). Notice how the > > disk is fully utilized (%util) during readahead, but the throughput > > (rkB/s) is *really* low. This could very well be a problem with my hard > > disk. hdparm seems fine though (and I checked the parameters before > > running readahead). > > Disks are very very seek constrained. You get wonderful performance reading > linear data. The moment you read a lot of scattered files or a file with a > lot of segments you will get low performance - even more so on laptops than > desktops yeah we saw that; sorting the list on disk sector shaved 2 seconds off... if we want to save more we'll have to fix the on disk layout to be less spread out. That's not going to be fun... From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 16:04:35 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:04:35 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 15:40 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:29:12 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > >> > At least that's the intention. Some people think they can get away with > >> > not being GPL while still using and depending on deep kernel internals; > >> > well... to be honest the pain is on them though. > >> > >> Actually the pain is on the users. You just don't see it. > > > > people who choose to use binary modules suffer, I am fully aware of > > that. I rather not have them suffer that. But in a way they choose that > > pain when they choose to start using binary modules. > > Sometimes the choice is like this. > > I bought a 3D game. I want to play it. > > a) Go back to Windows > b) Use a binary driver on Linux c) Buy only supported 3D cards, or cards with it's proprietary component in userspace > > > But look at it with a slightly longer pervue; about half the bugs > > reported against the kernel are in the drivers. The fact that the driver > > sources are available gives us a shot at fixing those, just as the > > availability of the core source allows us to fix bugs there. > > Well this is just a generalisation of "all software should be open > source". I tend to agree with that, it would be great if that were true. well in a way it is, in a way it's not. There is a difference between userspace software and kernel components here. A "broken" userspace app at worst breaks itself. A broken kernel component breaks the entire system, because kernel components have full permission to everything, by definition. (And before you say "then make it not so", you can't do that. Not without getting the same issues that makes people not write userspace drivers today) > Hm well, can't speak for others but the *only* problems I have with the > nVidia drivers are when kernel upgrades break them. Last time it was 4k > stacks, The 4K stacks issue was a long standing nvidia bug. In older kernels, there *also* was only 4K stack space, except that when you used more you could get away with it more (eg as long as you were lucky and didn't get an interrupt during the time you use too much stack, you didn't crash; with the new situation you notice this more frequent). > this time it's apparently udev. the udev thing is 1) not caused by the kernel at all and 2) progress. You don't suggest holding back progress do you ? > > they do have a choice. they can do things on the other side of the > > designed stable interface. For example, NVidia could do this. > > I'm pretty sure they could not do this without an unacceptable > performance loss. I didn't want to suggest there were no reasons to chose the kernel side. It's probably a 5% performance gain or so... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Sun Nov 21 16:04:28 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:04:28 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101053068.5398.13.camel@serenity.klika.si> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 16:55 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > Disks are very very seek constrained. You get wonderful performance reading > > linear data. The moment you read a lot of scattered files or a file with a > > lot of segments you will get low performance - even more so on laptops than > > desktops > > yeah we saw that; sorting the list on disk sector shaved 2 seconds off... > if we want to save more we'll have to fix the on disk layout to be less > spread out. That's not going to be fun... To elaborate, Arjan suggested analyzing the distribution of the blocks and [1] does seem to explain why the throughput was good at start but declined later. [1] http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/blocks.png (the image shows the distribution of the readahead file blocks, with a log scale filesize radius and random vertical distribution; only the first 1/4th of the 34GB device is shown). -- Ziga From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sun Nov 21 16:14:02 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:14:02 +0100 Subject: (boot improvement experiments) Re: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> Message-ID: <1101053641.4067.1.camel@kyrre> > - EPIPHANY: 2 seconds > - OPENOFFICE: 5 seconds (!!) Those are very important for UI experience. I wonder if it migth be possible to add ooquickstart and some preloading of webbrowser... From veillard at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 16:28:43 2004 From: veillard at redhat.com (Daniel Veillard) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:28:43 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041121162843.GB11177@redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 04:55:47PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 10:42:45AM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 11:50:49PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > > > This chart includes data from iostat (sysstat package). Notice how the > > > disk is fully utilized (%util) during readahead, but the throughput > > > (rkB/s) is *really* low. This could very well be a problem with my hard > > > disk. hdparm seems fine though (and I checked the parameters before > > > running readahead). > > > > Disks are very very seek constrained. You get wonderful performance reading > > linear data. The moment you read a lot of scattered files or a file with a > > lot of segments you will get low performance - even more so on laptops than > > desktops > > yeah we saw that; sorting the list on disk sector shaved 2 seconds off... > if we want to save more we'll have to fix the on disk layout to be less > spread out. That's not going to be fun... Let's see ... Suppose we isolate all the resources we need to load quickly, we have a list of files, hopefully all from the same / partition, while in single user mode and without concurrent activity: for foo in $list: cp $foo $foo.new for foo in $list: rm $foo for foo in $list: mv $foo.new $foo We could expect filesystems to allocate the new blocks (data and possibly metadata) more or less sequentially on disk. What would led the filesystem code to not be sequential (most of the time assuming a single block device underneath) ? Just wondering... Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ veillard at redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From mike at navi.cx Sun Nov 21 16:34:36 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:34:36 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:04:35 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > c) Buy only supported 3D cards, or cards with it's proprietary component > in userspace I'm not aware of any (good) 3D cards with open source drivers. Saying do it in userspace is just saying that somebody else has to deal with binary-only code. Nobody *likes* dealing with that, but it's something that has to be done anyway. > well in a way it is, in a way it's not. There is a difference between > userspace software and kernel components here. A "broken" userspace app > at worst breaks itself. A broken kernel component breaks the entire > system, because kernel components have full permission to everything, by > definition. Yes I understand that. Bugs in drivers are *always* a big deal though. >From a desktop users POV a bug in the kernel or a bug in the X server drivers are basically equivalent, both kill the session dead. Userspace/kernelspace doesn't matter in that instance. I think you imagine everybody will blame the kernel developers for driver bugs. If communication is good enough there's no reason why that should be so. > The 4K stacks issue was a long standing nvidia bug. In older kernels, > there *also* was only 4K stack space, except that when you used more you > could get away with it more (eg as long as you were lucky and didn't get > an interrupt during the time you use too much stack, you didn't crash; > with the new situation you notice this more frequent). OK. > the udev thing is 1) not caused by the kernel at all and 2) progress. > You don't suggest holding back progress do you ? Here is the first line of my original email: > Stability is about managing change, not preventing it. I don't know whether udev was a 2.6 thing that was just not used in FC2, but all I know is that I upgraded my system and now stuff doesn't work. If udev was known to be a breaking change, why was it not integrated at the *start* of the 2.6 series so vendors could say "OK our current driver only works with 2.4 series kernels. You'll have to wait a bit for a 2.6 compatible driver" as opposed to now where it seems nearly every Fedora upgrade breaks something new. Nobody says stability prevents progress. That just isn't so. It may mean saving up lots of changes to integrate at once in one big release rather than constantly introducing them over time. I don't think people would mind so much if a driver written for 2.4 worked for the lifetime of the 2.4 series, and a different driver was needed for 2.6. Here's a post from a Linux sysadmin who ended up going with Solaris for some new systems because of this issue. He explains it better than me: http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=130413&cid=10880742 Relevant quote: "In fact, I recently had to ditch Linux for a project which required four different third-party add-ons, because I couldn't find a Linux distribution common to those supported by all four. We had to buy a Sun machine and use Solaris, because Sun has the common sense to keep a consistent driver API across each major version." > I didn't want to suggest there were no reasons to chose the kernel side. > It's probably a 5% performance gain or so... Well, there you go. The 3D market is cut-throat, an avoidable performance loss was probably deemed too high a cost. thanks -mike From cra at WPI.EDU Sun Nov 21 16:49:49 2004 From: cra at WPI.EDU (Charles R. Anderson) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:49:49 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121162843.GB11177@redhat.com> References: <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121162843.GB11177@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041121164949.GA3746@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 11:28:43AM -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: [cut defrag method] > We could expect filesystems to allocate the new blocks (data and possibly > metadata) more or less sequentially on disk. What would led the filesystem > code to not be sequential (most of the time assuming a single block device > underneath) ? Here is an article on the topic. Do we have ext3 block reservation in FC kernels? http://lwn.net/Articles/81357/ From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 16:51:49 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:51:49 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121162843.GB11177@redhat.com> References: <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121162843.GB11177@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101055907.2820.54.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 11:28 -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: > Let's see ... Suppose we isolate all the resources we need to load quickly, > we have a list of files, hopefully all from the same / partition, we have that ;-) > while in > single user mode and without concurrent activity: > > for foo in $list: > cp $foo $foo.new > for foo in $list: > rm $foo > for foo in $list: > mv $foo.new $foo > > We could expect filesystems to allocate the new blocks (data and possibly > metadata) more or less sequentially on disk. What would led the filesystem > code to not be sequential (most of the time assuming a single block device > underneath) nope this doesn't work; while each file individually will be sequential, they are not sequential on disk. Note: teh files already aren't fragmented, at least on my testsystem. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 16:55:34 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:55:34 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1101056134.2820.59.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 16:34 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > > well in a way it is, in a way it's not. There is a difference between > > userspace software and kernel components here. A "broken" userspace app > > at worst breaks itself. A broken kernel component breaks the entire > > system, because kernel components have full permission to everything, by > > definition. > > Yes I understand that. Bugs in drivers are *always* a big deal though. > >From a desktop users POV a bug in the kernel or a bug in the X server > drivers are basically equivalent, both kill the session dead. > Userspace/kernelspace doesn't matter in that instance. it's not "the session is dead" but "the machine crashed, possibly corrupting the filesystem with it". That's not quite the same... > I think you imagine everybody will blame the kernel developers for driver > bugs. If communication is good enough there's no reason why that should be > so. bzzzzz. wrong ;) There's no way around this; esp since you can't see from a crash what caused it... this is why the kernel now prints a "tainted" thing so that the kernel developers can just ignore the bug/point the user to the bin only module vendor > > the udev thing is 1) not caused by the kernel at all and 2) progress. > > You don't suggest holding back progress do you ? > > Here is the first line of my original email: > > > Stability is about managing change, not preventing it. > > I don't know whether udev was a 2.6 thing that was just not used in FC2, > but all I know is that I upgraded my system and now stuff doesn't work. If > udev was known to be a breaking change, why was it not integrated at the > *start* of the 2.6 series so vendors could say udev isn't part of the kernel. the 2.6.0 kernel has the option to use it already. > "OK our current driver only works with 2.4 series kernels. You'll have to > wait a bit for a 2.6 compatible driver" how is that different from "Ok our current driver only works with FC2. You'll have to wait a bit for a FC3 compatible driver" that you have now ? Esp since udev is NOT a kernel thing (although the 2.6 kernel more or less requires udev) > > I didn't want to suggest there were no reasons to chose the kernel side. > > It's probably a 5% performance gain or so... > > Well, there you go. The 3D market is cut-throat, an avoidable performance > loss was probably deemed too high a cost. but it's still choice.... where you claimed there wasn't any -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 16:56:09 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:56:09 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121164949.GA3746@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> References: <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121162843.GB11177@redhat.com> <20041121164949.GA3746@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> Message-ID: <1101056168.2820.61.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 11:49 -0500, Charles R. Anderson wrote: > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 11:28:43AM -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: > [cut defrag method] > > We could expect filesystems to allocate the new blocks (data and possibly > > metadata) more or less sequentially on disk. What would led the filesystem > > code to not be sequential (most of the time assuming a single block device > > underneath) ? > > Here is an article on the topic. Do we have ext3 block reservation in > FC kernels? yes. the files themselves aren't internally fragmented. it's teh seeks between teh various files that causes things. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 16:56:11 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:56:11 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121164949.GA3746@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> References: <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121162843.GB11177@redhat.com> <20041121164949.GA3746@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> Message-ID: <1101056169.2820.62.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 11:49 -0500, Charles R. Anderson wrote: > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 11:28:43AM -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: > [cut defrag method] > > We could expect filesystems to allocate the new blocks (data and possibly > > metadata) more or less sequentially on disk. What would led the filesystem > > code to not be sequential (most of the time assuming a single block device > > underneath) ? > > Here is an article on the topic. Do we have ext3 block reservation in > FC kernels? yes. the files themselves aren't internally fragmented. it's teh seeks between teh various files that causes things. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mpeters at mac.com Sun Nov 21 17:05:22 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:05:22 +0000 Subject: Various Fedora Extra changes (mailing list?), plus is APT now deprecated? (various responses) In-Reply-To: <1100997553.7520.7.camel@localhost.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> (from b.j.smith@ieee.org on Sat Nov 20 17:53:07 2004) References: <1100997553.7520.7.camel@localhost.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1101056722l.5237l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/20/2004 05:53:07 PM, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > William Hooper wrote: > > APT has never been part of Fedora Core and has always been an > "Extra". > > I understand this, but just was curious on the reasons for preferring > YUM. I am not speaking on behalf on anyone official - but I think it is because yum was written using python, and uses the rpm python package, which Red Hat/Fedora will keep updated and current because Anaconda uses Python. Additionally, since yum was written for rpm rather than ported to rpm, it's code base is much smaller. While it may not be true anymore, Apt use to do things kind of dirty - using its own dependency resolution and telling rpm to ignore its dependency resolution, thus yum was better integrated with rpm. Also - and you *may* be able to do this with apt, but I don't think so, want to install a group of packages you forgot to select at CD install time? yum grouplist That will show what is available. yum groupinstall "KDE (K Desktop Environment)" That will install the KDE Desktop Environment yum is really nice - and the current metadata yum has improved in speed signifigantly. From mike at navi.cx Sun Nov 21 17:15:22 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:15:22 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101056134.2820.59.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:55:34 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > it's not "the session is dead" but "the machine crashed, possibly > corrupting the filesystem with it". That's not quite the same... It's close enough. Boils down to the same thing. Corrupted filesystems are bad because users might lose important work, unsaved files due to an X server crash are bad because the users might lose important work. Drivers have to be reliable no matter where they are. > bzzzzz. wrong ;) > There's no way around this; esp since you can't see from a crash what > caused it... this is why the kernel now prints a "tainted" thing so that > the kernel developers can just ignore the bug/point the user to the bin > only module vendor Somehow the X team manage to debug their server with binary drivers. Somehow the Wine team manage to debug Wine when running binary programs on it. Claiming it's not possible says more about kernel development mentality than any unarguable fact of programming. > how is that different from "Ok our current driver only works with FC2. > You'll have to wait a bit for a FC3 compatible driver" that you have now? It's a matter of time: FC revs very quickly, and is only supported for a year (well, maybe more with Fedora Legacy these days). Whereas 'stable' kernel release cycles last a lot longer, or did. > Esp since udev is NOT a kernel thing (although the 2.6 kernel more or > less requires udev) Well, the exact relationship isn't really important. There are other examples of problems with out-of-tree drivers (not necessarily binary only) eg ndiswrapper. > but it's still choice.... where you claimed there wasn't any A choice that makes nVidia avoidably uncompetitive in the Linux graphics market isn't really a choice for them. Blame capitalism, don't shoot the messenger ... From n3npq at nc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 17:11:56 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:11:56 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Alan Cox wrote: >Disks are very very seek constrained. You get wonderful performance reading >linear data. The moment you read a lot of scattered files or a file with a >lot of segments you will get low performance - even more so on laptops than >desktops > > How much of a factor is rotational latency? Or does sucking entire track into buffer make rotational latency a non-factor these days? 73 de Jeff From peter.backlund at home.se Sun Nov 21 17:23:30 2004 From: peter.backlund at home.se (Peter Backlund) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:23:30 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041121 changes In-Reply-To: <200411211250.iALCoka26548@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411211250.iALCoka26548@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101057810.3458.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> s?n 2004-11-21 klockan 07:50 -0500 skrev Build System: > gaim-1:1.0.3-3 > -------------- > * Sat Nov 20 2004 Warren Togami 1.0.3-3 > - make gcc4 conditional > > * Sat Nov 20 2004 Daniel Reed 1.0.3-2 > - Rebuild using gcc4 > - To revert, remove "BuildRequires: gcc4" and "CC=gcc4" Does this mean that Rawhide is about to move to gcc4? From avibrazil at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 17:19:52 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:19:52 -0200 Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: OOo widgets font look terrible in my desktop. I followed this guide to change it, without success: http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/fontguide.html#9 I suspect OOo Fedora packages have the widget font changed to something else than Andale Sans UI. Anybody knows which font? Anybody knows how to change OOo widgets fonts ? Thank you, Avi From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 21 17:37:48 2004 From: seanlkml at sympatico.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:37:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101056134.2820.59.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> On Sun, November 21, 2004 12:15 pm, Mike Hearn said: > Somehow the X team manage to debug their server with binary drivers. Somehow the Wine team manage to debug Wine when running binary programs on Both of which run under the protection of the kernel. > it. Claiming it's not possible says more about kernel development mentality than any unarguable fact of programming. You're missing the point. Nobody is saying it can't be done, just that the kernel developers aren't interested in dealing with problems that arise with a tainted kernel. [snip] > Well, the exact relationship isn't really important. There are other examples of problems with out-of-tree drivers (not necessarily binary only) eg ndiswrapper. ndiswrapper supports binary only drivers. > A choice that makes nVidia avoidably uncompetitive in the Linux graphics market isn't really a choice for them. Blame capitalism, don't shoot the messenger ... It's not capitalism per se, but unfortunate patent laws and other legal entanglements. Linux has its roots in open source. All of the people who started Linux accepted its limitations because of the power and freedom given by open source. Many people have since become involved who don't understand or respect the foundation of Linux and are happy with binary drivers. That's fine, but don't expect it to matter in the lives of those working on Linux for the reasons that made it important to the world in the first place. Cheers, Sean From laroche at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 17:16:49 2004 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:16:49 +0100 Subject: rawhide report: 20041121 changes In-Reply-To: <1101057810.3458.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200411211250.iALCoka26548@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> <1101057810.3458.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041121171649.GA4164@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > Does this mean that Rawhide is about to move to gcc4? A start to check gcc4. greetings, Florian La Roche From mike at navi.cx Sun Nov 21 18:06:14 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:06:14 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101056134.2820.59.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:37:48 -0500, Sean wrote: > Both of which run under the protection of the kernel. So what? It still involves debugging programs with binary components. > It's not capitalism per se, but unfortunate patent laws and other legal > entanglements. I think you missed the point: if nVidia took a (let's be optimistic) 5% performance hit to move stuff out of the kernel, ATI would make a big deal of the fact that their systems were faster. Performance is one of the primary factors people use to choose which vendor to go with, so more people would go with ATI. If you keep making those sorts of decisions you end up bankrupt, because ultimately you're not meeting the customers needs. For once, patents and other "legal entanglements" don't enter into it. From andreas at conectiva.com.br Sun Nov 21 18:12:18 2004 From: andreas at conectiva.com.br (Andreas) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:12:18 -0200 Subject: Various Fedora Extra changes (mailing list?), plus is APT now deprecated? (various responses) In-Reply-To: <1101056722l.5237l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1100997553.7520.7.camel@localhost.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1101056722l.5237l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <20041121181218.GB10895@conectiva.com.br> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 05:05:22PM +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > Additionally, since yum was written for rpm rather than ported to rpm, > it's code base is much smaller. I call that short sighted :) > While it may not be true anymore, Apt use to do things kind of dirty - > using its own dependency resolution and telling rpm to ignore its > dependency resolution, thus yum was better integrated with rpm. Emphasis on *was*. apt-rpm doesn't do that anymore for a long time now. > Also - and you *may* be able to do this with apt, but I don't think so, > want to install a group of packages you forgot to select at CD install > time? > > yum grouplist That is totally distro-dependent. No need to have the package tool to implement this separately. Just use meta-packages. For example: apt-get install task-profile-sambaserver Where task-profile-sambaserver is a simple rpm package with no files whatsoever which exists just to pull in the right dependencies. > That will show what is available. apt-cache search task-profile > yum groupinstall "KDE (K Desktop Environment)" > > That will install the KDE Desktop Environment apt-get install task-kde > yum is really nice - and the current metadata yum has improved in speed > signifigantly. I'm sure it is, and believe me when I say I'm not trying to tell you that apt is better or worse: I'm just showing how the things you said are done in the apt-rpm world. BTW, why doesn't yum stop when I hit CTRL-C to abort an update in progress? From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 21 18:12:27 2004 From: seanlkml at sympatico.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:12:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101056134.2820.59.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: <42939.10.10.10.28.1101060747.squirrel@10.10.10.28> On Sun, November 21, 2004 1:06 pm, Mike Hearn said: > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:37:48 -0500, Sean wrote: > So what? It still involves debugging programs with binary components. Its a matter of consequences, and who is responsible for the mess. When a user level program crashes the kernel makes sure the consequences are minimal, at least at the system level. The kernel developers have more important things to do than debug problems created by binary components. > I think you missed the point: if nVidia took a (let's be optimistic) 5% > performance hit to move stuff out of the kernel, ATI would make a big deal > of the fact that their systems were faster. Performance is one of the > primary factors people use to choose which vendor to go with, so more > people would go with ATI. > > If you keep making those sorts of decisions you end up bankrupt, because > ultimately you're not meeting the customers needs. For once, patents and > other "legal entanglements" don't enter into it. Lets be really optimistic and imagine that one of the companies open sourced their drivers and gained all the benefits of being in the kernel, being debugged by everyone, having all the benefits without the downside. They would prosper and have a competetive advantage both in marketing and in performance/supportability. The only reason they don't do it, is because of unfortunate patent laws and other legal problems. But then, that isn't the problem of those who are involved with Linux for the very reasons that propelled it to the position it enjoys today, which has _nothing_ to do with binary only components. Cheers, Sean From fcatrin at tuxpan.com Sun Nov 21 18:13:38 2004 From: fcatrin at tuxpan.com (Franco Catrin) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:13:38 -0300 Subject: (boot improvement experiments) Re: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1101053641.4067.1.camel@kyrre> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100557489.5282.10.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> <1101053641.4067.1.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1101060818.3003.9.camel@shaman.txp> El dom, 21-11-2004 a las 17:14 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak escribi?: > > - EPIPHANY: 2 seconds > > - OPENOFFICE: 5 seconds (!!) > > Those are very important for UI experience. I wonder if it migth be > possible to add ooquickstart and some preloading of webbrowser... I think that readahead of OOo and epiphany is enough. ooquickstart does almost the same, but it is not transparent to the user -- Franco Catrin L. TUXPAN http://www.tuxpan.com/fcatrin From fcatrin at tuxpan.com Sun Nov 21 18:18:17 2004 From: fcatrin at tuxpan.com (Franco Catrin) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:18:17 -0300 Subject: (boot improvement experiments) Re: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <7248933a04112009251727440e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100567109.8404.189.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100632141.3642.21.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117205256.GA18706@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041119151451.52a864d5@nausicaa.camperquake.de> <1100899370.4422.59.camel@shaman.txp> <7248933a04112009251727440e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1101061097.3003.13.camel@shaman.txp> El s?b, 20-11-2004 a las 09:25 -0800, David Corrigan escribi?: > > - I prepared an readahead.early.files running strace -e trace=open on X > > and gdm > > Could you provide some more details about how the readahead files are > created and loaded? basically: strace -e trace=open executabletobetraced 2> executable.log then I apply a mix of grep/cut/sort to get a list of files being opened, something like: grep RDONLY | grep -v DIRECTORY | grep "^open" | grep -v "such file" | cut -c7- | \ cut -d"\"" -f1 | sort -u | grep -v "^/home/" | grep -v "^/proc/" | \ grep -v "^/tmp/" | grep -v "^/dev" (I think it could be simpler that that) > I ran strace in the terminal and it said the X server was already > running so I assume I need to have it start X. Where does the command > need to be executed? if you plan to strace X, I recommend you to go to runlevel 3 and do it from there -- Franco Catrin L. TUXPAN http://www.tuxpan.com/fcatrin From ssc at coolspot.de Sun Nov 21 18:28:10 2004 From: ssc at coolspot.de (Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:28:10 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> What I think about. >From a users point of view, an average user could expect the following : Buy hardware, insert installation cd, start installer, plug-in hardware. Go working. On Linux it depends on which hardware is supported by which distribution out of the box. That is one of the reasons why SUSE is so beloved here in germany by so called daus. Normally the linux drivers on the customers homepages don't fit your distro/kernel pair. And how many users are able to start a simple make ? Sad enough, not many. There are bothered buy a system which "forces" them to dig in mud. Users don't want to dig in mud, they want to dig the mud. We support many users with a well written windows software. "Oh, you inserted the USB device before installing, the driver ... ... oh, you did not read the manual, which states that ..." Want more ? The industrie is telling the user that everything with a PC is as easy as 1,2,3. It's not, and there pissed if someone tells them : "no, you can't..." That sounds to them like "you are an asshole not knowing that you must ...". You take every experience away and declare it useless. That is the *real* reason many companies fear the penguin - or the fish. What they've learned and believed in over decades is shit then. So I think that is the real challenge of a modern Linux system. Give the user (the end-user, not the seasoned UNIX admin or techie) the feeling he's the dude. If that means offering the same methods other systems offer, ok. Who cares ? People expect executables to be ending to *.exe. I have a co-woker, who started using apache after I created a symlink called "apache.exe" to apachectl. "apache.exe start", I said. Surprise, surprise. Now he's the dude. So what about drivers ? People expect setup.exe oder usb-device.msi under their pillow. That *should* be possible. Cheers, Stefan Am Sonntag, 21. November 2004 19:06 schrieb Mike Hearn: > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:37:48 -0500, Sean wrote: > > Both of which run under the protection of the kernel. > > So what? It still involves debugging programs with binary components. > > > It's not capitalism per se, but unfortunate patent laws and other legal > > entanglements. > > I think you missed the point: if nVidia took a (let's be optimistic) 5% > performance hit to move stuff out of the kernel, ATI would make a big deal > of the fact that their systems were faster. Performance is one of the > primary factors people use to choose which vendor to go with, so more > people would go with ATI. > > If you keep making those sorts of decisions you end up bankrupt, because > ultimately you're not meeting the customers needs. For once, patents and > other "legal entanglements" don't enter into it. From mike at navi.cx Sun Nov 21 18:43:01 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:43:01 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101056134.2820.59.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <42939.10.10.10.28.1101060747.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:12:27 -0500, Sean wrote: > Lets be really optimistic and imagine that one of the companies open > sourced their drivers and gained all the benefits of being in the kernel, > being debugged by everyone, having all the benefits without the downside. I think you need to talk to the nVidia engineers and/or Alan Cox, who has said in the past (I think) that he can't find a way for them to open their driver sources without suffering serious consequences. It's not a simple matter of patents and legal problems. It's a matter of economics. Anyway, this whole point is silly: nobody should be *forced* against their wishes to open source their code if they don't want to. If open source development really is better than the old way, then rational people will become a part of it over time if they can. The last thing we want is some developers saying "I didn't want to GPL my code, but I was forced to". That achieves nothing in the long run. Next time they write software that doesn't have to be GPLd they won't do it, because nobody made the argument to them for the free software philosophy and won. In fact the most likely thing is not that they'll GPL their sources against their wishes, more likely they'll just hack around it or not bother. thanks -mike From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 21 18:49:22 2004 From: seanlkml at sympatico.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:49:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101056134.2820.59.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <42939.10.10.10.28.1101060747.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: <43013.10.10.10.28.1101062962.squirrel@10.10.10.28> On Sun, November 21, 2004 1:43 pm, Mike Hearn said: > > I think you need to talk to the nVidia engineers and/or Alan Cox, who has > said in the past (I think) that he can't find a way for them to open their > driver sources without suffering serious consequences. It's not a simple > matter of patents and legal problems. It's a matter of economics. > > Anyway, this whole point is silly: nobody should be *forced* against their > wishes to open source their code if they don't want to. If open source > development really is better than the old way, then rational people will > become a part of it over time if they can. Similarly no open source developer should be *forced* to deal with issues created by binary only components. > The last thing we want is some developers saying "I didn't want to GPL my > code, but I was forced to". That achieves nothing in the long run. Next > time they write software that doesn't have to be GPLd they won't do it, > because nobody made the argument to them for the free software philosophy > and won. > > In fact the most likely thing is not that they'll GPL their sources > against their wishes, more likely they'll just hack around it or not > bother. Either way, Linux will continue under the stewardship of those who understand and respect the fundamental difference between it and closed-source alternatives. Sean From stephen_pollei at comcast.net Sun Nov 21 19:44:39 2004 From: stephen_pollei at comcast.net (Stephen Pollei) Date: 21 Nov 2004 11:44:39 -0800 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 07:40, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:29:12 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > Sometimes the choice is like this. > I bought a 3D game. I want to play it. > a) Go back to Windows > b) Use a binary driver on Linux Well I haven't used windows for years and don't plan on starting up again. I also will not allow a binary-only module in my kernel. I also won't run any binary-only blob as root, so I'm kind of stubborn like that. I guess I won't buy any games that need that kind of closed-source binary driver. If everyone switched to Linux and had that kind of attitude then I'm sure vendors would find some way to open up some code. > > But look at it with a slightly longer purview; about half the bugs > > reported against the kernel are in the drivers. The fact that the driver > > sources are available gives us a shot at fixing those, just as the > > availability of the core source allows us to fix bugs there. > Well this is just a generalization of "all software should be open > source". I tend to agree with that, it would be great if that were true. Not really, It just means that many of the kernel developers want to only support that which they can. Thats why they added the tainted flag. Binary-only modules don't benefit them and they can't help you with it. > > But it's not true, and there are no signs of it suddenly becoming true > anytime soon. Ok but why exactly should the kernel developers care to support that. > > If the drivers weren't part of that, their quality would lag WAY behind. > > (And to be honest, you do see that in several binary drivers: bad > > quality. Nvidia seems to be improving somewhat there but they didn't > > always have that; others are still struggling). Yep I hear windows have similar problems with third party drivers. They also have lots of bloat to support old obsolete and redundant api's. BTW I remember that this debate was done better online through some blogs. http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/eschrock/20040924#rebutting_a_rebuttal http://www.kroah.com/log/2004/09/26/#2004_09_26_sun_rebuttal_round2 http://www.kroah.com/log/2004/09/23/#2004_09_23_sun_rebuttal I'll snip from some of Kroah's stuff: [[...I really need to write a article/essay about why Linux does not have driver api stability. ... It's not that we don't know how to create a binary api with padding structures out, and offering up new functions, it's the fact that because we have the source to all of our drivers, we do not have to. One minor comment though, the fact that we have the source to everything changes all of the old rules that operating systems had to live by. Backwards compatibility is no longer necessary, enabling us to move faster, and be more flexible than ever. As proof of that, look at the huge range of machines that Linux runs very well on. Everything from this tiny little gumstick, up to a 512 way ia64 box. And our drivers work on all of those platforms, with no changes needed. ... Device support - As I mentioned before, and as you mentioned, Linux's device support is unmatched anywhere else. We support, out-of-the-box, more devices than any other operating system. We also support them on every platform that Linux is supported on (somewhere over 21 unique architectures with lots of minor arches last I looked). .... Speed - Last I looked, Linux beat the pants off of any other operating system on the same exact hardware configuration. ... And, I'm sure the fact that we don't have to keep around old, broken apis, or have padded structures to keep binary compatibility might have a little to do with this speed advantage :) ... Flexibility - I touched on this up above in the device support point, but Linux scales from very tiny to very huge systems, all based on the exact same kernel code base. ... ]] So binary-only drivers doesn't help people doesn't help people on PPC or whatever very much. It also doesn't help people testing out Ingo's realtime preeempt . If/when that gets merged I'm sure the binary-only problem will get a little trickier -- up Vs. smp and four levels of preempt ... You going to make at least eight kernel modules? > > > btw the glibc NSS abi is changing all the time ... X is about to change > > their driver interfaces because they suffered too much bitrot. > I'm pretty sure they could not do this without an unacceptable > performance loss. Perhaps an nVidia engineer should be asked, they are > easy to contact. I wouldn't care. If you're closed-source binary-only you run in userspace non-root, if at all. -- http://dmoz.org/profiles/pollei.html http://sourceforge.net/users/stephen_pollei/ http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=2455954990164098214 http://stephen_pollei.home.comcast.net/ GPG Key fingerprint = EF6F 1486 EC27 B5E7 E6E1 3C01 910F 6BB5 4A7D 9677 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mpeters at mac.com Sun Nov 21 19:57:09 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:57:09 +0000 Subject: Various Fedora Extra changes (mailing list?), plus is APT now deprecated? (various responses) In-Reply-To: <20041121181218.GB10895@conectiva.com.br> (from andreas@conectiva.com.br on Sun Nov 21 10:12:18 2004) References: <1100997553.7520.7.camel@localhost.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1101056722l.5237l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041121181218.GB10895@conectiva.com.br> Message-ID: <1101067029l.5237l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/21/2004 10:12:18 AM, Andreas wrote: > Emphasis on *was*. apt-rpm doesn't do that anymore for a long time > now. > I believe it did at the time Fedora Core 1 shipped - which is when yum became part of Fedora. From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:02:15 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:02:15 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> Message-ID: <20041121200215.GF18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 12:18:03PM +0100, Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens wrote: > 2.6.x ? For example, you write a kernel driver for e.g. > Solaris 9; it will be supported all the livetime of Solaris. ROTFL. Sorry I can't take that seriously (well not without assuming the life time of Solaris will be very short). ABI's break, even Microsoft who have probably done more than most other vendors to avoid such breakage when it suited them found that. Alan From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:05:14 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:05:14 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041121200514.GG18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 03:09:08PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > > rest is required to be GPL anyway in principle so can be adjusted. > > I thought binary modules were OK, hence the whole GPL vs non-GPL symbol > versioning system? The GPL v non-GPL is intended to help identify stuff that is clearly GPL only use from stuff that is "maybe". You get into an area of law called "derived works" which is to say the least full of grey areas in this zone. Essentially there isn't any caselaw to guide people _yet_. For the USB driver case there is libusb anyway From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:06:24 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:06:24 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041121200624.GH18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 03:40:36PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > I bought a 3D game. I want to play it. > > a) Go back to Windows > b) Use a binary driver on Linux c) Radeon 9x00 > Hm well, can't speak for others but the *only* problems I have with the > nVidia drivers are when kernel upgrades break them. Last time it was 4k > stacks, this time it's apparently udev. You are confused. They 4K stack merely showed they were already broken. From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:09:08 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:09:08 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041121200908.GI18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 01:49:32PM -0200, Avi Alkalay wrote: > tend to not understand the reasons of "you have to" open source it > all. So they simply don't spend their time working on Linux drivers > because all of this user pain. So if they just say "it runs on Linux" Of course that would be why I keep getting submissions from vendors in my mailbox. Many of them also get the fact that there is a lot less overhead with many of their Linux submissions that are GPL because 95% of it consists of "use code already in the kernel". ALi for example recently contributed support for the M5228. It's one if and a PCI identifier. Sure beats writing an entire proprietary driver. From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:12:29 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:12:29 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041121201229.GK18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 04:34:36PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > From a desktop users POV a bug in the kernel or a bug in the X server > drivers are basically equivalent, both kill the session dead. > Userspace/kernelspace doesn't matter in that instance. I do X development, I must disagree. Most X screwups result in either a return to text mode and a logged signal catch, or at least the ability to log back in and clean up/reboot nicely. Very important on server systems. The work Jon Smirl is doing is aimed at significantly reducing the number of occurences where such clean up/reboot is required. From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:13:55 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:13:55 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> References: <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041121201355.GL18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 12:11:56PM -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > How much of a factor is rotational latency? Or does sucking entire track > into buffer > make rotational latency a non-factor these days? It still seems to matter from timing. I would assume the drives are smart enough to hand back sectors as they read them even if they are caching ahead and doing other clever stuff. From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:15:07 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:15:07 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101056134.2820.59.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041121201507.GM18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 05:15:22PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > Somehow the X team manage to debug their server with binary drivers. No. Nvidia debug the Nvidia stuff nobody else. From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:17:31 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:17:31 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101056134.2820.59.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: <20041121201731.GN18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 06:06:14PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > > Both of which run under the protection of the kernel. > So what? It still involves debugging programs with binary components. If you'd ever done any work of that nature you wouldnt be saying "so what" > If you keep making those sorts of decisions you end up bankrupt, because > ultimately you're not meeting the customers needs. For once, patents and > other "legal entanglements" don't enter into it. You've also clearly never spent time talking to Nvidia about the issues as they see them. Alan From mike at navi.cx Sun Nov 21 20:21:09 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:21:09 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:44:39 -0800, Stephen Pollei wrote: > I guess I won't buy any games that need that kind of closed-source > binary driver. If everyone switched to Linux and had that kind of > attitude then I'm sure vendors would find some way to open up some code. They won't. Why should they? Availability of source code is useful primarily to those who can read and write programs. That's not the majority of the worlds population. > Not really, It just means that many of the kernel developers want to > only support that which they can. Thats why they added the tainted flag. > Binary-only modules don't benefit them and they can't help you with it. They could support kernels with binary only modules. Other OS vendors do it. Other open source projects do it. They choose not to however. > Ok but why exactly should the kernel developers care to support that. Good question! I thought it was because the kernel developers wanted to make a kernel useful for desktop systems, but if that isn't the case then I guess I have no arguments left: this whole thing revolves around wanting the kernel to be easier to use and therefore more useful than it currently is. > Yep I hear windows have similar problems with third party drivers. > They also have lots of bloat to support old obsolete and redundant > api's. BTW I remember that this debate was done better online through > some blogs. > http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/eschrock/20040924#rebutting_a_rebuttal > http://www.kroah.com/log/2004/09/26/#2004_09_26_sun_rebuttal_round2 > http://www.kroah.com/log/2004/09/23/#2004_09_23_sun_rebuttal I saw that debate. Gregs arguments struck me as very poor, and I wasn't the only one: http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/archive/2004/Sep-28.html He basically said things like "Well Windows has multiple USB interfaces and that's a bad thing" and expecting it to pass as assertion, ie there was no analyis of why it was a bad thing. He just took it as read that it was. In this case the cost of having the old interfaces (in financial terms) was presumably outweighed by the benefits of retaining backwards compatibility, otherwise MS would not have done it. Remember, one mans bloat is another mans ability to upgrade ... > One minor comment though, the fact that we have the source to everything > changes all of the old rules that operating systems had to live by. > Backwards compatibility is no longer necessary, enabling us to move > faster, and be more flexible than ever. Yes, because as we all know software magically rewrites itself while we sleep. Our IT systems are also upgraded by leprechauns. > As proof of that, look at the > huge range of machines that Linux runs very well on. That is unrelated to backwards compatibility. The rest of your paragraph is based on an unsupported assumption: that Linux could not be fast/multi-arch etc without an unstable module API. I've never seen anybody seriously try and argue that (Windows NT kernel is also multi-arch). Anyway, this is all a pointless discussion. This is not me saying "binary modules are good", I never claimed that, I'm saying they're unavoidable and should be supported. I'm 99% convinced though that kernel policy will never change, no matter how many people ask for it and no matter what their arguments are. Probably, the only way we're going to get a sane ISV-supportable desktop system is by forking the kernel at the start of major release cycles (2.4, 2.6 etc). So this whole discussion is pretty useless and I wish I had never started it, people here are far more interested in theoretical performance benefits being available RIGHT NOW than eg being able to buy a working wireless card. From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:19:28 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:19:28 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> Message-ID: <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 07:28:10PM +0100, Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens wrote: > Normally the linux drivers on the customers homepages don't fit > your distro/kernel pair. > And how many users are able to start a simple make ? Why do they need to. Thats a packaging issue (see DKMS). From rms at 1407.org Sun Nov 21 19:28:07 2004 From: rms at 1407.org (Rui Miguel Seabra) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:28:07 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101053074.2820.31.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1101065287.3701.25.camel@roque> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 16:34 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:04:35 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > c) Buy only supported 3D cards, or cards with it's proprietary component > > in userspace > > I'm not aware of any (good) 3D cards with open source drivers. Some ATI cards have a good 3D support. Check gatos.sf.net > Here's a post from a Linux sysadmin who ended up going with Solaris for > some new systems because of this issue. He explains it better than me: > > http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=130413&cid=10880742 > > Relevant quote: > > "In fact, I recently had to ditch Linux for a project which required four > different third-party add-ons, because I couldn't find a Linux > distribution common to those supported by all four. We had to buy a Sun > machine and use Solaris, because Sun has the common sense to keep a > consistent driver API across each major version." Certification criteria is 99.99% of the time bullshit. If those vectors are the only vectors that sysadmin can think of... well, I have pity on him. Either he should know more, or he's being imposed great pains. Regards, -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rms at 1407.org Sun Nov 21 19:23:51 2004 From: rms at 1407.org (Rui Miguel Seabra) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:23:51 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1101065031.3701.21.camel@roque> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 15:09 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > - nvidia binary driver, required for 3D on a large number of peoples > systems NVIDIA is the culprit here. > - ndiswrapper, required for compatibility with a large number of wireless > cards XXX is the culprit here. > - all the drivers that aren't in tree because they don't meet the coding > standards etc, of which there are a bunch around on sourceforge Those should be improved, but it's not too much of an hassle. I'm doing it now for some 802.11b card's Free Software drivers. > > At least that's the intention. Some people think they can get away with > > not being GPL while still using and depending on deep kernel internals; > > well... to be honest the pain is on them though. > > Actually the pain is on the users. You just don't see it. That pain is on the users. Agree 100%. But who is inflicting it? The developers or some company wanting to keep secret mumbo jambo? It's the later one, who's the culprit. Rui -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:25:19 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:25:19 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> Message-ID: <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 08:21:09PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > They won't. Why should they? Availability of source code is useful > primarily to those who can read and write programs. That's not the > majority of the worlds population. Wrong. Simple rephrase "The availability of plans of the house is useless except to builders". Now that should be obviously garbage to anyone. Its useful to you because it means you can pick your builder. Imagine a world of "I'm sorry sir you'll have to phone ACME plumbing and pay whatever they care to charge you because thats a proprietary sink joint." "Can't you work out what it is doing" "Im sorry sir, it has a no reverse engineering clause" > They could support kernels with binary only modules. Other OS vendors do > it. Other open source projects do it. They choose not to however. If you want any support with certain binary only modules (in limited cases) buy an enterprise product which is priced appropriately for the problems it causes, Alan From wrrhdev at riede.org Sun Nov 21 20:28:23 2004 From: wrrhdev at riede.org (Willem Riede) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:28:23 +0000 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> (from arjanv@redhat.com on Sun Nov 21 10:55:47 2004) References: <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101068903l.11560l.20l@serve.riede.org> On 11/21/2004 10:55:47 AM, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 10:42:45AM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 11:50:49PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > > > This chart includes data from iostat (sysstat package). Notice how the > > > disk is fully utilized (%util) during readahead, but the throughput > > > (rkB/s) is *really* low. This could very well be a problem with my hard > > > disk. hdparm seems fine though (and I checked the parameters before > > > running readahead). > > > > Disks are very very seek constrained. You get wonderful performance > > reading linear data. The moment you read a lot of scattered files or a > > file with a lot of segments you will get low performance - even more so > > on laptops than desktops > > yeah we saw that; sorting the list on disk sector shaved 2 seconds off... > if we want to save more we'll have to fix the on disk layout to be less > spread out. That's not going to be fun... Is there any way to have a "pre-cooked" swap image of all the files you need so that when you boot you can swap it all in in one big contiguous read instead of having to read file by file? Regards, Willem Riede. From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:31:58 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:31:58 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1101068903l.11560l.20l@serve.riede.org> References: <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101068903l.11560l.20l@serve.riede.org> Message-ID: <1101069118.2820.68.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> > > yeah we saw that; sorting the list on disk sector shaved 2 seconds off... > > if we want to save more we'll have to fix the on disk layout to be less > > spread out. That's not going to be fun... > > Is there any way to have a "pre-cooked" swap image of all the files you need > so that when you boot you can swap it all in in one big contiguous read > instead of having to read file by file? not currently; file contents also never hits swap, it would require like a full vm subsystem rewrite to achieve this. It's probably a lot easier to either write some defrag tool that can move stuff, or to make a hidden automatic buffer in the fs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 21 20:32:01 2004 From: seanlkml at sympatico.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:32:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> Message-ID: <43257.10.10.10.28.1101069121.squirrel@10.10.10.28> On Sun, November 21, 2004 3:21 pm, Mike Hearn said: > They won't. Why should they? Availability of source code is useful > primarily to those who can read and write programs. That's not the > majority of the worlds population. You're wrong here. The availability of the source code directly benefits users even if they themselves can not program. The breadth of developers who work on the code and the freedom to hire someone to work on the code is just one whopping benefit of open source to everyone. > They could support kernels with binary only modules. Other OS vendors do > it. Other open source projects do it. They choose not to however. It's because they understand and respect open source. They understand that it is a reciprocal relationship and that you only get help from the kernel community if you give back to the community. > Good question! I thought it was because the kernel developers wanted to > make a kernel useful for desktop systems, but if that isn't the case then > I guess I have no arguments left: this whole thing revolves around wanting > the kernel to be easier to use and therefore more useful than it currently > is. Perhaps you don't respect open-source or understand the motivation of those who contribute, but there is no reason they should feel compelled to help those that don't want to play by the open-source rules. Open source has created useful desktop systems already and they're getting better all the time. Those companies that don't want to participate are free to go use other operating systems. Why would we want them involved with Linux anyway? [snip] > Anyway, this is all a pointless discussion. This is not me saying > "binary modules are good", I never claimed that, I'm saying they're > unavoidable and should be supported. There's no reason to think they're unavoidable. We just need to support and promote open-source alternatives. There is no reason to think we should support companies that don't want to contribute back to the community. > I'm 99% convinced though that kernel policy will never change, no > matter how many people ask for it and no matter what their arguments > are. > > Probably, the only way we're going to get a sane ISV-supportable desktop > system is by forking the kernel at the start of major release cycles (2.4, > 2.6 etc). So this whole discussion is pretty useless and I wish I had > never started it, people here are far more interested in theoretical > performance benefits being available RIGHT NOW than eg being able to buy a > working wireless card. Anybody can fork any time, there are lots of forks out there. Good luck making a successful fork dedicated to closed-source support. Cheers, Sean From shiva at sewingwitch.com Sun Nov 21 20:40:02 2004 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:40:02 -0800 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <922004358D595AEE561FBECF@[10.0.0.4]> --On Sunday, November 21, 2004 1:49 PM -0200 Avi Alkalay wrote: > Open Source nature makes innovation and development follow only the > taste of the developers. While commercial software innovation are lead > by business and user requirements, market pressure, etc. False dichotomy. There's commercial open source and non-commercial closed source. From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Sun Nov 21 20:41:21 2004 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:41:21 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1101069118.2820.68.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101068903l.11560l.20l@serve.riede.org> <1101069118.2820.68.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <41A0FD71.70601@hhs.nl> Arjan van de Ven wrote: >>>yeah we saw that; sorting the list on disk sector shaved 2 seconds off... >>>if we want to save more we'll have to fix the on disk layout to be less >>>spread out. That's not going to be fun... >> >>Is there any way to have a "pre-cooked" swap image of all the files you need >>so that when you boot you can swap it all in in one big contiguous read >>instead of having to read file by file? > > > not currently; file contents also never hits swap, it would require like > a full vm subsystem rewrite to achieve this. It's probably a lot easier > to either write some defrag tool that can move stuff, or to make a > hidden automatic buffer in the fs > > I was thinking along side the hidden automatic buffer in the fs, just set asside a partition. and dump everything there in the order needed. Problem 1: how do we tell the kernel that the block just read equals a block on one of the mounted FS and that the kernel can use the read block instead of reading it from the mounted FS? Problem 2: how do we keep the partition uptodate? Which makes me wonder if this is the path to follow. Regards, Hans -- EuropeSwPatentFree http://EuropeSwPatentFree.hispalinux.es From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 20:42:55 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:42:55 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <41A0FD71.70601@hhs.nl> References: <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101068903l.11560l.20l@serve.riede.org> <1101069118.2820.68.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <41A0FD71.70601@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <20041121204255.GG27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 09:41:21PM +0100, Hans de Goede wrote: > > Problem 1: how do we tell the kernel that the block just read equals a > block on one of the mounted FS and that the kernel can use the read > block instead of reading it from the mounted FS? if you do it inside the filesystem then the fs can do it internally > Problem 2: how do we keep the partition uptodate? againm the fs can just do that transparent > From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sun Nov 21 20:44:04 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:44:04 +0100 Subject: Various Fedora Extra changes (mailing list?), plus is APT now deprecated? (various responses) In-Reply-To: <20041121181218.GB10895@conectiva.com.br> References: <1100997553.7520.7.camel@localhost.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1101056722l.5237l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <20041121181218.GB10895@conectiva.com.br> Message-ID: <1101069844.4067.15.camel@kyrre> s?n, 21.11.2004 kl. 19.12 skrev Andreas: > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 05:05:22PM +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > Additionally, since yum was written for rpm rather than ported to rpm, > > it's code base is much smaller. > > I call that short sighted :) > > > While it may not be true anymore, Apt use to do things kind of dirty - > > using its own dependency resolution and telling rpm to ignore its > > dependency resolution, thus yum was better integrated with rpm. > > Emphasis on *was*. apt-rpm doesn't do that anymore for a long time now. > > > Also - and you *may* be able to do this with apt, but I don't think so, > > want to install a group of packages you forgot to select at CD install > > time? > > > > yum grouplist > > That is totally distro-dependent. No need to have the package tool to implement > this separately. Just use meta-packages. > > For example: apt-get install task-profile-sambaserver > > Where task-profile-sambaserver is a simple rpm package with no files whatsoever > which exists just to pull in the right dependencies. > > > That will show what is available. > > apt-cache search task-profile > > > yum groupinstall "KDE (K Desktop Environment)" > > > > That will install the KDE Desktop Environment > > apt-get install task-kde > > > yum is really nice - and the current metadata yum has improved in speed > > signifigantly. > > I'm sure it is, and believe me when I say I'm not trying to tell you that > apt is better or worse: I'm just showing how the things you said are done > in the apt-rpm world. > > BTW, why doesn't yum stop when I hit CTRL-C to abort an update in progress? It stops download on *that* mirror - and switches to the next one. Just keep pressin'g control+c and wait. i *WILL* stop... Eventually... From nbargnesi at den-4.com Sun Nov 21 20:49:21 2004 From: nbargnesi at den-4.com (Nick Bargnesi) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:49:21 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1101070161.3688.2.camel@eliwood> I use the gtk-qt engine from http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software_2fgtk_2dqt OOo uses the same fonts my gtk/qt apps do, once configured inside the kcontrol center. -Nick Bargnesi On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 15:19 -0200, Avi Alkalay wrote: > OOo widgets font look terrible in my desktop. > I followed this guide to change it, without success: > > http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/fontguide.html#9 > > I suspect OOo Fedora packages have the widget font changed to > something else than Andale Sans UI. Anybody knows which font? > > Anybody knows how to change OOo widgets fonts ? > > Thank you, > Avi > From rdieter at math.unl.edu Sun Nov 21 20:54:51 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:54:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: <1101070161.3688.2.camel@eliwood> References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> <1101070161.3688.2.camel@eliwood> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Nick Bargnesi wrote: > I use the gtk-qt engine from > http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software_2fgtk_2dqt > OOo uses the same fonts my gtk/qt apps do, once configured inside the > kcontrol center. FYI, gtk-qt-engine is in Extras, and has a update awaiting QA to the latest version: http://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=2035 -- Rex From stephen_pollei at comcast.net Sun Nov 21 21:03:58 2004 From: stephen_pollei at comcast.net (Stephen Pollei) Date: 21 Nov 2004 13:03:58 -0800 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> Message-ID: <1101071039.973.80.camel@fury> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 10:28, Stefan Sonnenberg-Carstens wrote: > What I think about. > >From a users point of view, an average user > could expect the following : > Buy hardware, insert installation cd, start installer, > plug-in hardware. Go working. I expect in the future via project utopia and the hotplug/udev/hal stuff etc; that I buy a piece of hardware and stick it in and it *works* . If it doesn't just work then I'll do one of several things: 1) help reverse engineer it. 2) return it to the store for a refund. 3) not get it in the first place I've recently helped do #1 for a cheap digital usb camera that I got from a promotional offer thing. I contacted gphoto. Used usbsnoop on my brother's machine(I don't have windows on my machines). I got help from someone on the list who used the usbsnoop logs to write a driver that I only needed a few tweaks to. Now I have a driver for it that still needs some polish. gphoto is about to make a new release, and I hope this driver can get into it. If the timing of different things happens currently then I expect FC4 to just do-the-right-thing when I plug in the camera. BTW it also supports a webcam mode, so I'll need to contact some other people, to get that going after I help polish-up the basic stuff. >There are bothered buy a system which > "forces" them to dig in mud. > Users don't want to dig in mud, they want to dig the mud. Yes sir, they shouldn't have to mess with CDs, how quaint and passe when we got yum, etc. I agree we shouldn't be so user-unfriendly to force them to have a bunch of CDs they have to use to install hardware, or have them dig around on a bunch of web-sites. > You take every experience away and declare it useless. > That is the *real* reason many companies fear the penguin - or the fish. > What they've learned and believed in over decades is shit then. > So I think that is the real challenge of a modern Linux system. OK paraphrasing your words, we should duplicate the same kind of defecation -- sounds unsanitary and unsavory -- Thanks, but no thanks. -- http://dmoz.org/profiles/pollei.html http://sourceforge.net/users/stephen_pollei/ http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=2455954990164098214 http://stephen_pollei.home.comcast.net/ GPG Key fingerprint = EF6F 1486 EC27 B5E7 E6E1 3C01 910F 6BB5 4A7D 9677 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sun Nov 21 21:01:54 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:01:54 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1101069118.2820.68.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101068903l.11560l.20l@serve.riede.org> <1101069118.2820.68.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1101070914.4067.17.camel@kyrre> s?n, 21.11.2004 kl. 21.31 skrev Arjan van de Ven: > > > yeah we saw that; sorting the list on disk sector shaved 2 seconds off... > > > if we want to save more we'll have to fix the on disk layout to be less > > > spread out. That's not going to be fun... > > > > Is there any way to have a "pre-cooked" swap image of all the files you need > > so that when you boot you can swap it all in in one big contiguous read > > instead of having to read file by file? > > not currently; file contents also never hits swap, it would require like > a full vm subsystem rewrite to achieve this. It's probably a lot easier > to either write some defrag tool that can move stuff, or to make a > hidden automatic buffer in the fs > Hmm... I thougth there was no "defrag.ext3" in Linux because it wasn't neccesary. Was i wrong? From mike at navi.cx Sun Nov 21 21:10:30 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:10:30 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> Hm, for some reason your posts aren't showing up on gmane. I don't know if it's just slow or there's something more strange going on, so I'll reply to all the points here in one email. > > So what? It still involves debugging programs with binary components. > > If you'd ever done any work of that nature you wouldnt be saying "so what" Please don't attack me, go for the arguments. That way you won't make wrong assumptions based on limited knowledge. I've been working on Wine for about a year and a half now, and these days it's my job. There are apparently no interesting open source Win32 apps because the programs people want to run are always proprietary. So yes I _HAVE_ done a ton of work of this nature, and yes I still say "so what". It's not easy, it's not always fun, but there you go: that's life. Sometimes you have to debug problems with other peoples binary code loaded into the process. This does involve quite tricky things like debugging race conditions in closed source DLLs, but it can't be avoided. It's either that or Linux isn't useful to a particular class of people who need app XYZ. I am wishing the kernel developers would change their attitudes with full knowledge of what debugging binary only code is like. I do it all the time. > You've also clearly never spent time talking to Nvidia about the issues as > they see them. Clearly I haven't, but you have, and like I said last thing I heard from you was that you couldn't justify them open sourcing their drivers. Have you changed your mind, or did I misinterpret what you originally said? Are you saying that they could GPL their drivers and not lose any advantage at all over other proprietary gfx card vendors? > No. Nvidia debug the Nvidia stuff nobody else. Well apart from this: http://diary.codemonkey.org.uk/index.php?month=5&year=2004 and there are a few posts on the xorg list where people take a look at problems with the nvidia drivers. > I do X development, I must disagree. Most X screwups result in either a > return to text mode and a logged signal catch, or at least the ability to > log back in and clean up/reboot nicely. Very important on server systems. Yes, important on server systems. I was talking about desktops. An X server crash kills every client connected to it (unless they install specific panic handlers). That is the same as needing a reboot for desktop users, except it's a bit faster to log in than reboot. But they still lost their session and any unsaved work. > Wrong. Simple rephrase "The availability of plans of the house is useless > except to builders". Now that should be obviously garbage to anyone. That's why I said "primarily useful". Obviously open source code is good for society in general, that's why we're all here! My point was that it's not so directly useful to non-programmers that they'll say "Oh well I'll not play 3D games anymore" en-masse. Not going to happen. > If you want any support with certain binary only modules (in limited cases) > buy an enterprise product which is priced appropriately for the problems it > causes I don't want tech support, I want a stable ABI driver developers can work to. If they screw up and my system crashes because of their driver I'll run crying to them: somehow this system trundles along in Windows- land, warts and all. Finally: > You are confused. They 4K stack merely showed they were already broken. Of course in this instance "broken" is defined as "uses more stack than the amount we've decided isn't broken". I understand the reasoning behind the choice of 4k so I won't claim it's arbitrary, even though the stacks could be larger. Windows uses 12k stacks does it not? I guess we have different definitions of broken. thanks, your input is appreciated -mike -- Mike Hearn From arjanv at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 21:08:15 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:08:15 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1101070914.4067.17.camel@kyrre> References: <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101068903l.11560l.20l@serve.riede.org> <1101069118.2820.68.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101070914.4067.17.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <20041121210815.GH27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 10:01:54PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > s?n, 21.11.2004 kl. 21.31 skrev Arjan van de Ven: > > > > yeah we saw that; sorting the list on disk sector shaved 2 seconds off... > > > > if we want to save more we'll have to fix the on disk layout to be less > > > > spread out. That's not going to be fun... > > > > > > Is there any way to have a "pre-cooked" swap image of all the files you need > > > so that when you boot you can swap it all in in one big contiguous read > > > instead of having to read file by file? > > > > not currently; file contents also never hits swap, it would require like > > a full vm subsystem rewrite to achieve this. It's probably a lot easier > > to either write some defrag tool that can move stuff, or to make a > > hidden automatic buffer in the fs > > > Hmm... I thougth there was no "defrag.ext3" in Linux because it wasn't > neccesary. Was i wrong? the files themselves don't get fragmented in this case.. it's just that we want to play with moving certain files to certain locations.... From perbj at stanford.edu Sun Nov 21 21:12:36 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:12:36 -0800 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <20041121200624.GH18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041121200624.GH18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101071557.3312.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 15:06 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 03:40:36PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > > I bought a 3D game. I want to play it. > > > > a) Go back to Windows > > b) Use a binary driver on Linux > > c) Radeon 9x00 Unfortunately, at the moment that is still only true for x<=2. Good enough for my purposes (I enjoy the fact that my Radeon 9000 doesn't have a fan...) but people who actually care about serious gaming etc are unlikely to agree. Nowadays there is a somewhat promising reverse-engineering effort going on for the r300 Radeons as well, with some basic stuff figured out. It's unlikely to result in any hardcore-gamer class drivers anytime soon but it might result in cool-desktop grade 3D if things keep up. (http://r300.sf.net for anyone who's interested, especially people with r300 hardware available to help out...) /Per -- Per Bjornsson Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University From mpeters at mac.com Sun Nov 21 21:14:23 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:14:23 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> (from stephen_pollei@comcast.net on Sun Nov 21 11:44:39 2004) References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> Message-ID: <1101071663l.5237l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/21/2004 11:44:39 AM, Stephen Pollei wrote: > On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 07:40, Mike Hearn wrote: > > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:29:12 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > Sometimes the choice is like this. > > I bought a 3D game. I want to play it. > > a) Go back to Windows > > b) Use a binary driver on Linux > Well I haven't used windows for years and don't plan on starting up > again. I also will not allow a binary-only module in my kernel. Exactly my position - I'm not a kernel developer by any stretch of the imagination and I won't pretend to know whether or not the Linux Kernel should be done differently, but I am not ever buying a video card again that does not have a kernel 3D driver. My VooDoo3 cards just worked. I was happy. They don't work with my current mobo, so I bought an NVidia card. I'm using the open source nv.o driver because NVidia's binary driver didn't always work properly even for 2D stuff. Sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't. Sometimes a newer driver from nvidia worked better, sometimes it didn't. Maybe I wouldn't have to worry about that if Linux did things the way things were suggested here, I don't know - but I do know is that my experience is that hardware with OSS drivers in the kernel almost always just plain work, and when they don't just plain work - like what happened with my FireWire driver - it is quickly fixed by people who work on the kernel every single day. I don't mind closed source software. I use divx4linux on my system right now - but divx4linux isn't going to bring the system down if it fails, it is user space. I think I'm with the kernel people on this one just because I have seen that their method DOES provide quality drivers, I have not seen the closed source method provide quality drivers. Upgrading to WinXP SP2 gave me problems with some drivers, for example - as did every OS 7/8/9/X update I ever did. From perbj at stanford.edu Sun Nov 21 21:23:26 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:23:26 -0800 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> Message-ID: <1101072206.3312.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 21:10 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > > You are confused. They 4K stack merely showed they were already broken. > > Of course in this instance "broken" is defined as "uses more stack than > the amount we've decided isn't broken". I understand the reasoning > behind the choice of 4k so I won't claim it's arbitrary, even though the > stacks could be larger. Windows uses 12k stacks does it not? > > I guess we have different definitions of broken. I believe that the correct way to read this is, in fact, that there in _no guarantee whatsoever_ that there is more than 4K stack space available in a "8K stack" kernel, since the IRQ stacks aren't separate in that case. So it's just a bit more hit-or-miss whether you actually get the oopses... OK, sure you could use some other stack size, but the drivers that oops with 4K stacks have never been safe. Since they are linux drivers that is a bug. Now, if you're actually talking about ndiswrapper, that's a whole different can of worms since you're trying to wedge something written to work in Windows into the Linux kernel. Well, good luck with that. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. /Per -- Per Bjornsson Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University From nbargnesi at den-4.com Sun Nov 21 21:31:24 2004 From: nbargnesi at den-4.com (Nick Bargnesi) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:31:24 -0500 Subject: Self-Introduction: Nick Bargnesi Message-ID: <1101072684.3688.25.camel@eliwood> Full legal name: Nicholas Bargnesi Country, City: Tiverton, RI Profession or Student status: Software Engineer Company or School: Defense Industry Your goals in the Fedora Project Which packages do you want to see published? I like the current list. Do you want to do QA? Second to developing my stuff, sure. Anything else special? Hmmm, no. Historical qualifications What other projects have you worked on in the past? I've done some GUI work with KDE, posted quite a bit to kde-look.org. I'm currently involved in a number of projects. An event listener for X, a peer-to-peer communications tool, and some other non-descript stuff as of yet. I wrote a shell script to create iconsets easily. I'm also quite active in x86_64 related stuff. What computer languages and other skills do you know? Java, C, limited C++, scripting, software design, validation and verification, administration, blah blah... Why should we trust you? Because I'm a non-threatening, non-intimidating, sometimes arrogant geek. GPG KEYID and fingerprint pub 1024D/2A876673 2004-11-21 Nick Bargnesi sub 1024g/CB1EBEAF 2004-11-21 From karl.vogel at telenet.be Sun Nov 21 21:54:47 2004 From: karl.vogel at telenet.be (Karl Vogel) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:54:47 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1101070914.4067.17.camel@kyrre> (Kyrre Ness Sjobak's message of "Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:01:54 +0100") References: <1100641510.4139.4.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101068903l.11560l.20l@serve.riede.org> <1101069118.2820.68.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101070914.4067.17.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: Kyrre Ness Sjobak writes: > Hmm... I thougth there was no "defrag.ext3" in Linux because it wasn't > neccesary. Was i wrong? There is 1, albeit not open source: O&O Defrag - Defragmentation for Linux ext2/ext3. (c) 2004 O&O Software GmbH. All rights reserved. O&O Defrag CommandLine Utility Beta Version 1.0 Build 4758 -- http://www.oo-software.com/en/products/oodlinux/ From alan at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 22:07:21 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:07:21 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> Message-ID: <20041121220721.GR18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 09:10:30PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > I've been working on Wine for about a year and a half now, and these > days it's my job. There are apparently no interesting open source Win32 > apps because the programs people want to run are always proprietary. And you don't have a four minute reboot cycle each wrong guess ? > I am wishing the kernel developers would change their attitudes with > full knowledge of what debugging binary only code is like. I do it all > the time. I've been there and done it too. Its very different debugging code that you have some expectation that a debugger will handle. > Clearly I haven't, but you have, and like I said last thing I heard from > you was that you couldn't justify them open sourcing their drivers. Have > you changed your mind, or did I misinterpret what you originally said? I couldn't but the reaons you gave don't match the reasons Nvidia gave at all. > Are you saying that they could GPL their drivers and not lose any > advantage at all over other proprietary gfx card vendors? They have that problem too. However the first problem they would have is that there is code they use they don't own. Also performance isn't always a good decision maker. > That's why I said "primarily useful". Obviously open source code is good > for society in general, that's why we're all here! My point was that > it's not so directly useful to non-programmers that they'll say "Oh well > I'll not play 3D games anymore" en-masse. Not going to happen. Actually they seem to file bugs with trangaming and friends who in turn filter some of them back to relevant places. When "shock rifle in game foo hangs DRI" gets back to the DRI folks its suddenely rather useful to have DRI source. > I don't want tech support, I want a stable ABI driver developers can > work to. If they screw up and my system crashes because of their driver > I'll run crying to them: somehow this system trundles along in Windows- > land, warts and all. Except for all the drivers that don't work in XP, or are 98 only. I get so much cool stuff off ebay cheap because the (often ex) vendor driver doesnt work on 2K/XP. An ABI is very very hard to handle. It also works against customers some times - eg I long ago found a unix vendor bug that let anyone using rsh control and reconfigure the networking stack. The engineer I knew fixed it next day, it took a year to get out properly because it was a kernel ABI issue. The same criteria apply in Linux land too. I fixed some nasty tty holes. That needed an ABI change (and in a couple of cases API change). Would you prefer an ABI or security ? Vendors do recognize the trade off. RHEL3 has a fixed ABI as best we can manage it, but its a hard job. > Of course in this instance "broken" is defined as "uses more stack than > the amount we've decided isn't broken". I understand the reasoning > behind the choice of 4k so I won't claim it's arbitrary, even though the > stacks could be larger. Windows uses 12k stacks does it not? The original kernel had about 6K of stack you could use, but at least 2K of that had to be free for IRQ handlers. The new kernel has separate stacks for IRQ handlers so nothing has changed in available stack except that abusers who would previously randomly crash the box now reliably crash it. Thats an improvement in itself as unpredictable bugs are bad. Alan From karl.vogel at telenet.be Sun Nov 21 22:09:17 2004 From: karl.vogel at telenet.be (Karl Vogel) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:09:17 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121204255.GG27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> (Arjan van de Ven's message of "Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:42:55 +0100") References: <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101068903l.11560l.20l@serve.riede.org> <1101069118.2820.68.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <41A0FD71.70601@hhs.nl> <20041121204255.GG27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Arjan van de Ven writes: > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 09:41:21PM +0100, Hans de Goede wrote: >> >> Problem 1: how do we tell the kernel that the block just read equals a >> block on one of the mounted FS and that the kernel can use the read >> block instead of reading it from the mounted FS? > > if you do it inside the filesystem then the fs can do it internally Wild idea... Couldn't the cachefs be used for something like this?! Then it would work with all the filesystems. From mike at navi.cx Sun Nov 21 22:34:59 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:34:59 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <20041121220721.GR18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> <20041121220721.GR18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101076499.3267.35.camel@littlegreen> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 17:07 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > And you don't have a four minute reboot cycle each wrong guess ? Correct. I'd be surprised if you can't cut that down by using things like LinuxBIOS. For issues that aren't driver related, VMs? > I've been there and done it too. Its very different debugging code that you have > some expectation that a debugger will handle. Debuggers are often useless working on Wine. Many interesting programs like iTunes employ anti-debugger code. You typically have to go by logging frameworks, examining the code, etc. All the old-school techniques. For race conditions logging can be a problem too, but let's not go there. Horror stories can wait for some other time :) Anyway, I don't want to get into an arm-wrestle over who has it worse, let's just leave it at "it's possible but not easy" :) > Actually they seem to file bugs with trangaming and friends who in turn > filter some of them back to relevant places. When "shock rifle in game > foo hangs DRI" gets back to the DRI folks its suddenely rather useful to > have DRI source. Yeah, some users file bugs. That's not related to my original point which is that the hypothetical "if all users refused to use binary 3D drivers then vendors would have to open up some source" situation is silly. It's not going to happen anytime soon, so why discuss it? That sort of mass boycott *might* occasionally work for very emotive issues like Nestle baby-milk. It won't happen for something as complicated and specialist as open source nvidia drivers. > Except for all the drivers that don't work in XP, or are 98 only. I get so > much cool stuff off ebay cheap because the (often ex) vendor driver doesnt > work on 2K/XP. I'll take a few drivers not working on XP over not being able to buy a new wireless card that works with Linux. I've tried. The shop refused to take them back, I'd opened the packaging. The last one even had a penguin on the website, could probably do the vendors for trading standards. It's a worthless piece of plastic and metal to me now (chipset change w/ no model number change). Yeah I'll definitely take the Windows "occasionally might not work on XP" situation to the "almost certainly won't work on Linux" situation we have now, at least for wireless cards. And the situation has got worse not better. The only supported cards you can get these days seem to be obsolete. > An ABI is very very hard to handle. It also works against customers some > times - eg I long ago found a unix vendor bug that let anyone using rsh > control and reconfigure the networking stack. The engineer I knew fixed it > next day, it took a year to get out properly because it was a kernel ABI issue. Yeah, that's pretty much worst case example. > The same criteria apply in Linux land too. I fixed some nasty tty holes. That > needed an ABI change (and in a couple of cases API change). Would you prefer > an ABI or security ? I think most would accept that Linux is more secure than Windows currently in terms of worms and such, but most people use Windows. One reason is that Windows supports their hardware and software. So I guess the logical conclusion is that people do value compatibility more than security. This is for desktops, obviously. On servers it's probably the other way around. > Vendors do recognize the trade off. RHEL3 has a fixed ABI as best we can > manage it, but its a hard job. It's not really fixed. It's just that RHEL revs less often. The next rev will still be incompatible with the previous. > The original kernel had about 6K of stack you could use, but at least 2K of > that had to be free for IRQ handlers. The new kernel has separate stacks > for IRQ handlers so nothing has changed in available stack except that > abusers who would previously randomly crash the box now reliably crash it. > Thats an improvement in itself as unpredictable bugs are bad. OK. That makes sense. Still, I'm no stranger to working around bugs in popular programs - at the end of the day the purpose of an OS is to run the users programs and let them use their hardware. It's not to punish the user for buying stuff from vendors who write buggy software (which 3D card driver has never had bugs again?). thanks -mike -- Mike Hearn From veillard at redhat.com Sun Nov 21 22:41:38 2004 From: veillard at redhat.com (Daniel Veillard) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:41:38 -0500 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <1101055907.2820.54.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121162843.GB11177@redhat.com> <1101055907.2820.54.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041121224138.GC11177@redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 05:51:49PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 11:28 -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: > > while in > > single user mode and without concurrent activity: > > > > for foo in $list: > > cp $foo $foo.new [...] > > We could expect filesystems to allocate the new blocks (data and possibly > > metadata) more or less sequentially on disk. What would led the filesystem > > code to not be sequential (most of the time assuming a single block device > > underneath) > > nope this doesn't work; while each file individually will be sequential, > they are not sequential on disk. Note: teh files already aren't > fragmented, at least on my testsystem. yeah, but why does ext3 allocator doesn't allocate consecutive blocks for such a pattern ? Directory locality ? Still wondering :-) It must be possible one way or another to do this without going though very complex reservation interfaces. The problem is not to 100% garantee we will not seek at all while going though this bunch of files but to have only a reasonable amount of seeks. Suppose there is only 10 seeks instead of a single block that would amount only for 1 tenth of a second delay on "normal" hardware. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ veillard at redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 21 22:46:01 2004 From: seanlkml at sympatico.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:46:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101076499.3267.35.camel@littlegreen> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> <20041121220721.GR18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101076499.3267.35.camel@littlegreen> Message-ID: <43804.10.10.10.28.1101077161.squirrel@10.10.10.28> On Sun, November 21, 2004 5:34 pm, Mike Hearn said: > Still, I'm no stranger to working around bugs in popular programs - at > the end of the day the purpose of an OS is to run the users programs and > let them use their hardware. It's not to punish the user for buying > stuff from vendors who write buggy software (which 3D card driver has > never had bugs again?). > The purpose of Linux has always been to create an open source OS, indeed that is its defining characteristic. People who respect that understand that there are tradeoffs to be made. Anyone who isn't served by this focus is better off on their proprietary, closed-source OS. Why would the kernel developers want to throw away what they've been working for just to service people who don't share the same goals? What is in it for the kernel developers? They're putting their weight behind a group effort; those that don't want to cooperate, have many other OS's available to them. Why would the kernel developers waste any time trying to attract those that don't believe in open source? You haven't made a good case that the kernel developers should change anything about the way they handle these issues. Sean From mike at navi.cx Sun Nov 21 23:04:12 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:04:12 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> <20041121220721.GR18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101076499.3267.35.camel@littlegreen> <43804.10.10.10.28.1101077161.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:46:01 -0500, Sean wrote: > You haven't made a good > case that the kernel developers should change anything about the way they > handle these issues. The case I'm making revolves around Linux being an OS people can use to get things done, rather than a work of art or a demo of open source principles. If you think the kernel is better off as a flagship of purity rather than a production desktop kernel then fine, I have nothing to say about that. From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 21 23:13:52 2004 From: seanlkml at sympatico.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:13:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> <20041121220721.GR18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101076499.3267.35.camel@littlegreen> <43804.10.10.10.28.1101077161.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: <43860.10.10.10.28.1101078832.squirrel@10.10.10.28> On Sun, November 21, 2004 6:04 pm, Mike Hearn said: > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:46:01 -0500, Sean wrote: >> You haven't made a good >> case that the kernel developers should change anything about the way >> they >> handle these issues. > > The case I'm making revolves around Linux being an OS people can use to > get things done, rather than a work of art or a demo of open source > principles. If you think the kernel is better off as a flagship of purity > rather than a production desktop kernel then fine, I have nothing to say > about that. > It's not about what I think. The question to you is, how do you convince the kernel developers to change their ways? What is their motivation? They are busy building an open source operating system. They accept the limitations of the OS as it stands today because they know it will get better over time and they're committed to working on it. So, if you accept that analysis, i'm asking you why you think the developers should spend any of their valuable time in a direction that goes against the very thing they're trying to accomplish? Your argument for pragmatism just belies your own personal goals which actually conflict with the very goals that fundamentally define what Linux is, and how it came to be important. Cheers, Sean From stephen_pollei at comcast.net Sun Nov 21 23:51:46 2004 From: stephen_pollei at comcast.net (Stephen Pollei) Date: 21 Nov 2004 15:51:46 -0800 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> Message-ID: <1101081108.973.234.camel@fury> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 12:21, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:44:39 -0800, Stephen Pollei wrote: > > I guess I won't buy any games that need that kind of closed-source > > binary driver. If everyone switched to Linux and had that kind of > > attitude then I'm sure vendors would find some way to open up some code. > They won't. Why should they? Availability of source code is useful > primarily to those who can read and write programs. That's not the > majority of the worlds population. You are right most people don't follow some kind of enlightened self-interest. However that doesn't mean that people might not slowly come around. It gets them indirect benefits. Even in a society were only 1% of the population bother to learn how-to maintain/repair cars, being able to get the engine benefits all. Further I've read a lot of code, but I don't think I've read more than 2% of all the code that goes into a modern distribution. I know I've contributed less than 0.1% , funny it doesn't seem to diminish the benefit I get from them in any real fashion. > > Not really, It just means that many of the kernel developers want to > > only support that which they can. Thats why they added the tainted flag. > > Binary-only modules don't benefit them and they can't help you with it. > > They could support kernels with binary only modules. Other OS vendors do > it. Other open source projects do it. They choose not to however. Yes sir, their choice and I completely understand why and support their choice. > > Ok but why exactly should the kernel developers care to support that. > > Good question! I thought it was because the kernel developers wanted to > make a kernel useful for desktop systems, but if that isn't the case then > I guess I have no arguments left: this whole thing revolves around wanting > the kernel to be easier to use and therefore more useful than it currently > is. The way for the kernel people and the various distributions to make it super easy for the end-user *requires* them to have the source for the various things they want to support. They can mold source-code, binaries are take it or leave it. So from my point of view I'm wondering why you are so user-hostile, instead of allowing the system to be more user-friendly. Also watching how people work on places like the lkml, I can't imagine how much slower they'd progress if they had to ask third parties to please fix this or that small problem that got exposed from some of the rapid changes that have happened. I think it would have been glacial slow to make the kind of smp locking changes that have happened if they had to wait a week or two for a third party to give a kernel developer a binary blob that he needs just to test something out quick. That he could have just just done himself with a one line change if he had the source. Speaking of support, if someone had a premium support contract with RedHat(TM) for a thousand desktop machines. If they ask for help, because their video card driver locks up under the heavy smp load their video editing is doing -- They don't want to hear RedHat point to a binary blob and say -- Opps not my problem. They want it solved RSN. And if RedHat can't or won't they want to be able to send their opps or deadlock report to the lkml or gasp hire someone themselves. Maybe up the bar in what you expect a sysadmin to be able to do. > > Yep I hear windows have similar problems with third party drivers. > > They also have lots of bloat to support old obsolete and redundant > > api's. BTW I remember that this debate was done better online through > > some blogs. > > http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/eschrock/20040924#rebutting_a_rebuttal > > http://www.kroah.com/log/2004/09/26/#2004_09_26_sun_rebuttal_round2 > > http://www.kroah.com/log/2004/09/23/#2004_09_23_sun_rebuttal > > I saw that debate. Gregs arguments struck me as very poor, and I wasn't > the only one: > > http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/archive/2004/Sep-28.html > > He basically said things like "Well Windows has multiple USB interfaces > and that's a bad thing" and expecting it to pass as assertion, ie there > was no analyis of why it was a bad thing. He just took it as read that it > was. In this case the cost of having the old interfaces (in financial > terms) was presumably outweighed by the benefits of retaining backwards > compatibility, otherwise MS would not have done it. Yeah MS has lots of backwards compatible stuff, sometimes on the side of the completely sick and disgusting -- http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html http://weblogs.asp.net/oldnewthing/archive/2003/12/23/45481.aspx http://weblogs.asp.net/oldnewthing/archive/2003/10/15/55296.aspx [[Reaching up the stack A certain software company decided that it was too hard to take the coordinates of the NM_DBLCLK notification and hit-test it against the treeview to see what was double-clicked. So instead, they take the address of the NMHDR structure passed to the notification, add 60 to it, and dereference a DWORD at that address. If it's zero, they do one thing, and if it's nonzero they do some other thing. It so happens that the NMHDR is allocated on the stack, so this program is reaching up into the stack and grabbing the value of some local variable (which happens to be two frames up the stack!) and using it to control their logic. For Windows 2000, we upgraded the compiler to a version which did a better job of reordering and re-using local variables, and now the program couldn't find the local variable it wanted and stopped working. I got tagged to investigate and fix this. I had to create a special NMHDR structure that "looked like" the stack the program wanted to see and pass that special "fake stack". I think this one took me two days to figure out.]] So yes Microsoft is paying lots of costs to keep backwards compatible, but not all of those costs boils directly to simply the cost of the programmers keeping redundant code around that they probably don't edit much anymore anyway. It costs efficiency; It cost quality; It costs aesthetics; It costs excellence. Those costs are passed on to the end customers, so MS doesn't care if it externalizes costs. > Remember, one mans bloat is another mans ability to upgrade ... I think Linux has done well in upgrading from 386's to AMD-64 ... Just how many drivers that have been open-source has had problems not being upgradeable. I've seen Linux support old hardware better than the windows model > > One minor comment though, the fact that we have the source to everything > > changes all of the old rules that operating systems had to live by. > > Backwards compatibility is no longer necessary, enabling us to move > > faster, and be more flexible than ever. > > Yes, because as we all know software magically rewrites itself while we > sleep. Our IT systems are also upgraded by leprechauns. No, but if your source code lives in the tree, then if they change that when they update the api's. Sounds like you are really complaining that you are too slow. So you ask, please slow down, because I have a crippled development model. > > As proof of that, look at the > > huge range of machines that Linux runs very well on. > > That is unrelated to backwards compatibility. The rest of your paragraph > is based on an unsupported assumption: that Linux could not be > fast/multi-arch etc without an unstable module API. I've never seen > anybody seriously try and argue that (Windows NT kernel is also > multi-arch). I was also talking about the benefits of having source, not just backwardness. How viable are those other archs with NT. I remember when NT ran on the Alpha, how great was the third party driver and app support for that? > Anyway, this is all a pointless discussion. This is not me saying > "binary modules are good", I never claimed that, I'm saying they're > unavoidable and should be supported. I avoid closed-source binary-only modules just fine, thank-you very much. > Probably, the only way we're going to get a sane ISV-supportable desktop > system is by forking the kernel at the start of major release cycles (2.4, > 2.6 etc). So this whole discussion is pretty useless and I wish I had > never started it, people here are far more interested in theoretical > performance benefits being available RIGHT NOW than eg being able to buy a > working wireless card. The only way? Sane? I think it's insane for people to expect the great things like the smp support, or Ingo's realtime preempt to have been viable if the kernel developers had to wait to get third party binary drivers to fix every little tiny thing. It is of incredible strategic importance that they don't get into a dependency problem with things that aren't as responsive as they are. Just listen Mrs. Reagan and "Just say no!" . Also if I was you I'd fork at something more recent than 2.6.0 or 2.4.0, and I wouldn't hold my breath for 2.8.0 or 3.0.0 . Well I still use wires for networking. I don't feel like going through the hassle of making sure I don't use WAP, and don't broadcast the SSID stuff, and whatever else it takes. So bad example for in my case. Since you wish you didn't receive the feedback you got, I won't continue in this thread. Thanks for your input though. -- http://dmoz.org/profiles/pollei.html http://sourceforge.net/users/stephen_pollei/ http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=2455954990164098214 http://stephen_pollei.home.comcast.net/ GPG Key fingerprint = EF6F 1486 EC27 B5E7 E6E1 3C01 910F 6BB5 4A7D 9677 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Mon Nov 22 00:21:17 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:21:17 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101082878.10304.24.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 15:25 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 08:21:09PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > > They won't. Why should they? Availability of source code is useful > > primarily to those who can read and write programs. That's not the > > majority of the worlds population. > > Wrong. Simple rephrase "The availability of plans of the house is useless > except to builders". Now that should be obviously garbage to anyone. Its > useful to you because it means you can pick your builder. Imagine a world > of "I'm sorry sir you'll have to phone ACME plumbing and pay whatever they > care to charge you because thats a proprietary sink joint." "Can't you work > out what it is doing" "Im sorry sir, it has a no reverse engineering clause" These analogies don't match up in the real world. A house is not an OS. The entire usage cases and support structure are entirely different. Normal computer users generally buy pre-built computer system from big names and call them for support. Houses do not, in most cases, work that way. Normal users don't give a flying hoot about open source. It is worthless to them. Linux desktops have bugs and crash or glitch out just as often as Windows - anyone who has ever looked at Red Hat's, GNOME's, or KDE's bug trackers know this - and those are just the bugs reported by users that know how and care. Security issues mean *nothing* to most users, who simply don't care or don't realize how serious the issues are. I've many times worked for some client who, while I was removing a ton of viruses from their machine, was commenting to me how security issues are such a farce and how average users would never have to worry about that kind of stuff. Computers are tools. End of story. People do not buy a computer to make a statement, they do not buy a computer to express philosophy - they buy a computer to complete tasks. Those tasks are, for the vast majority of users, simple Internet access (Web, e-mail, IM), basic professional/school work, and games. I have build, configured, and administrated numerous Linux machines for friends and family over the last couple years, and *each* and *every* single one of them are now Windows boxes. And the exact reason why is *entirely* because of the installation of software (ABI doesn't matter to anyone but the end users, which Open Source developers don't ever seem to care about) and driver installation. Driver installation is only getting worse in Linux. In-tree drivers are only useful if the driver exists in the version of the tree the user has. Sure, some mythical company releases fully GPLd drivers, or usable specs, a six months before their hardware is released. The kernel has it in-tree a couple months before the hardware is released. Six months after the hardware is released, a distro is released that actually *has* that kernel. Several months after that you might be able to expect 5% of the non-uber-geek OS consumer base to have a distro using that kernel. Meanwhile, in the BSD, Windows, Solaris, whatever world, the company releases a driver, and it works for 90% or more of the users. Sure, some drivers fail on XP, some drivers don't work on 95/98, but you are still, with a single driver, hitting far, far more of the user base than you can do with Linux. I don't care about this proprietary vs open source issue. I fully believe that Linux can *thrive* with a policy stating that *NO* non-GPLd modules may *ever* be loaded into the kernel. That's what the Open Source and Free Software activities truly want. The problem is entirely that fact that even *with* a fully GPLd driver there is no reasonable way for a user to be capable of using it without living on the bleeding edge and suffering through all the instability and work that requires, as well as having the knowledge to do it all. A stable kernel ABI is not necessarily important. I have argument for it, but it's not paramount. A stable API, which the kernel also lacks, *is* important. Alan mentioned DKMS - abso-fricken'-lutely useless with an unstable API. Sure, the vendor releases the driver source for DKMS, a nice graphical install tool is written for DKMS - too bad the driver only compiles and runs on a handful of kernel releases. The new "development model" just makes this problem even worse. The big argument for a stable ABI, even with a "all drivers are always GPL no matter what" system, is mainly during system install. I have some system-critical hardware (disk controller, say) that my OS install CDs don't support, install CDs do not have the environment to compile big drivers, a stable ABI would let the vendor ship some CDs/diskettes that the install can pull the driver off of to install. Again, very rare situation, most users in the real world do not and never will install an OS on their own, not that important. At the very least, however, without a stable API, the Linux kernel and its driver situation is just screwing users constantly. General system ABI is another story. If I can't install the app I bought/downloaded/wrote even just a year ago because the glibc maintainers decided to change something or the GCC developer found a way to get a .05% performance boost with this piddly little ABI break then there is a massive usability problem. One could ship apps as source and have them recompile on install, but for one, that is just far too slow, for two, the system APIs change too, and for three, proprietary apps are a reality that aren't going away anytime in the forseeable future. No matter how much work the upstream people and distros puts into making insanely usable GUIs, amazingly efficient systems, and superbly stable and secure code, it's all fairly useless to anyone but a geek if you can't install the OS or install any apps you want to run on it. From pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to Mon Nov 22 00:26:07 2004 From: pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to (Paul Iadonisi) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:26:07 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> <20041121220721.GR18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101076499.3267.35.camel@littlegreen> <43804.10.10.10.28.1101077161.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: <1101083167.22440.57.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 23:04 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:46:01 -0500, Sean wrote: > > You haven't made a good > > case that the kernel developers should change anything about the way they > > handle these issues. > > The case I'm making revolves around Linux being an OS people can use to > get things done, rather than a work of art or a demo of open source > principles. If you think the kernel is better off as a flagship of purity > rather than a production desktop kernel then fine, I have nothing to say > about that. I think you are neglecting another possible alternate future for Linux that I believe is actually much more likely. In a similar discussion not long ago on either this list or fedora- test-list, I reminded someone of a similar mind as you the history with SCSI card vendors. It used to be like pulling teeth to get SCSI card vendors to release specs for their cards, much less GPLed drivers. But, then something happened that they didn't expect[1]: Linux started taking off (and some cases, taking *over*) in the server room. It wasn't long before SCSI vendors were falling over each other to get their GPLed drivers rolled into the mainline kernel. Xircom (now owned by Intel) comes to mind as a prime example. Fast forward to a few years in the future and I believe your earlier false dichotomy here -- On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 21:10 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > That's why I said "primarily useful". Obviously open source code is > good > for society in general, that's why we're all here! My point was that > it's not so directly useful to non-programmers that they'll say "Oh > well > I'll not play 3D games anymore" en-masse. Not going to happen fails to identify a common catch-22 that can, and has in the past (like in the SCSI case) been broken. There is no market for games on Linux so there is no market for Linux among gamers. As Linux desktop systems take off more and more (and that, I believe is inevitable) in business and non-gamer home use (and I know many non-gamer home users, BTW) you will start to see more demand for games on Linux. *Someone* will produce a decent graphics card on Linux and provide Free Software drivers that will end up in the stock distributions of the Linux kernel and X.org. If you think that's unrealistic, search the linux-kernel archives over the past month or so for a discussion initiated by hardware vendor engineer who was interested, and had buy-in from his management, to produce a completely open design with Linux in mind specifically. It was (is?) going to be 2D initially, but the possibility of 3D was not out of the question for the future. So eventually there may be a non-nVidia, non-ATI graphics card with 3D-acceleration on Linux supported through Free Software drivers. This will make it possible for freedom-conscious distributions to bundle these drivers making this vendor's card the only well supported 3D- accelerated card on Linux out-of-box. Any company migrating most of their desktops to Linux will suddenly see an opportunity. Some additional percentage (1-2% maybe?) of their desktops that have been held back to that *other* operating system because their sales engineers need high performance 3D graphics to do their presentations will now be able to switch to RHEL5 (or WBEL5.0, for the really cost conscious) because it 'just works' out of the box with this new 3D-accelerated card. These 1-2% need hardware upgrades, anyhow. Now that this company can save money on software licensing, due to the ability to migrate to Linux, these upgrade have become affordable. (Presuming, of course, that there are no Windows apps actually holding back these specific upgrades, just lack of out-of-box 3D-accelerated support.) And then who's to say that Sony Playstation 3 game vendors won't begin to see an opportunity as well? "Gee, we're already developing on Linux," (as the PS/3 supposedly will be based on), "Linux is now gaining popularity, and also has an out-of-box working 3D-accelerated card. So we have the Linux expertise, let's get our games working on desktop Linux!" (Yes, I know about restrictive console vendor contracts, but that could all change if the economics do.) On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 15:40 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > Well this is just a generalisation of "all software should be open > source". I tend to agree with that, it would be great if that were > true. > > But it's not true, and there are no signs of it suddenly becoming true > anytime soon. I'd also rather people open sourced their code due to > the > social benefits (everybody being able to fix bugs, share knowledge, > implement new system-wide optimisations etc) rather than because the > kernel made it a total pain in the ass to do otherwise. That's > coercion > not persuasion. And when this 'third' graphics card vendor I mention above *owns* the market for 3D-accelerated cards on Linux, nVidia and ATI will wake up and start to consider the benefits of releasing their code. They may not do it right away, but they will be forced consider the *economic* reality that will become evident. It's not the case now, but, paraphrasing Jon 'maddog' Hall, "it's inevitable". Nobody is coercing anyone, as you imply above. If Linux becomes wildly successful on the desktop (with or without nVidia or ATI), which I believe will happen, and you want to play, you play by the rules. That's no different than any other operating system. On Sun, November 21, 2004 1:43 pm, Mike Hearn said: > I think you need to talk to the nVidia engineers and/or Alan Cox, who > has > said in the past (I think) that he can't find a way for them to open > their > driver sources without suffering serious consequences. It's not a > simple > matter of patents and legal problems. It's a matter of economics. > > Anyway, this whole point is silly: nobody should be *forced* against > their > wishes to open source their code if they don't want to. If open source > development really is better than the old way, then rational people > will > become a part of it over time if they can. Agreed. But nobody is *forcing* anyone. The binary-only vendors have made their own beds ... let them sleep in it. And there's no reason whatsoever to make it comfortable for them to not join. Personally, I don't think ndiswrapper is good idea for that very reason. It gives network card vendors a reason to be lazy and not port their drivers and provide them to the Linux kernel developers for inclusion. When nVidia and ATI come and join us, I have no doubt it will be for economic reasons. That's fine. Provided they come with an understanding of the terms of participation ... and this is to contribute code under the appropriate licenses, not to try and change the Linux way of doing things. Code is the only currency of the meritocracy that is Free Software. And you do have to 'buy' your way in. 1. This is key. Linux keeps on achieving things that ISVs, IHVs, and pundits don't expect. It's an ingrained characteristic of Free Software in general. When the pundits say, won't achieve any time soon, it's obvious they are saying that they don't believe it will *ever* achieve it. The Free Software projects keep proving them wrong, but they never learn. The lesson: *expect* to be surprised. -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Mon Nov 22 00:33:55 2004 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:33:55 +0100 Subject: Bootchart on SourceForge Message-ID: <1101083635.3825.24.camel@serenity.klika.si> Hi, I uploaded the bootchart sources. Have a look at: http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/ and give it a try. Make sure you have the sysstat package installed (for iostat). Note that I only tested this on my laptop, so if it chokes on your boot log files, please send them to me and I'll fix the parser or renderer. I haven't managed to get it working with libgcj yet. I'll work it out with the gcj guys; until then, you'll either have to use one of the evil JDKs, or use the web form that's on the page. Have fun, -- Ziga P.S.: You do have that rescue CD at hand, right? From dcbw at redhat.com Mon Nov 22 00:34:35 2004 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:34:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: Hi, What desktop environment are you using? OOo pulls the UI font from the desktop environment, in the GNOME case from GTK, and in the KDE case from QT. You should try changing the system-wide application font to see if that helps. But if you could check a copule things: 1) What desktop environment? 2) Do you have openoffice.org-kde package installed if you're using KDE? 3) What's your normal application font from the desktop env? Dan On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Avi Alkalay wrote: > OOo widgets font look terrible in my desktop. > I followed this guide to change it, without success: > > http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/fontguide.html#9 > > I suspect OOo Fedora packages have the widget font changed to > something else than Andale Sans UI. Anybody knows which font? > > Anybody knows how to change OOo widgets fonts ? > > Thank you, > Avi > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 22 00:48:08 2004 From: seanlkml at sympatico.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:48:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101082878.10304.24.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101082878.10304.24.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> Message-ID: <44063.10.10.10.28.1101084488.squirrel@10.10.10.28> On Sun, November 21, 2004 7:21 pm, Sean Middleditch said: > Normal users don't give a flying hoot about open source. It is > worthless to them. Linux desktops have bugs and crash or glitch out > just as often as Windows - anyone who has ever looked at Red Hat's, > GNOME's, or KDE's bug trackers know this - and those are just the bugs > reported by users that know how and care. Security issues mean > *nothing* to most users, who simply don't care or don't realize how > serious the issues are. I've many times worked for some client who, > while I was removing a ton of viruses from their machine, was commenting > to me how security issues are such a farce and how average users would > never have to worry about that kind of stuff. > > Computers are tools. End of story. People do not buy a computer to > make a statement, they do not buy a computer to express philosophy - > they buy a computer to complete tasks. Those tasks are, for the vast > majority of users, simple Internet access (Web, e-mail, IM), basic > professional/school work, and games. Perhaps Linux is not ready for this market yet, someday we will be. Why should the developers drop everything and service this segment today? > I have build, configured, and administrated numerous Linux machines for > friends and family over the last couple years, and *each* and *every* > single one of them are now Windows boxes. And the exact reason why is > *entirely* because of the installation of software (ABI doesn't matter > to anyone but the end users, which Open Source developers don't ever > seem to care about) and driver installation. There are already cheap computers that can be purchased at Wal-Mart that come with Linux pre-installed and the user need never know or care about Linux or configuring hardware. > Driver installation is only getting worse in Linux. In-tree drivers are > only useful if the driver exists in the version of the tree the user > has. Sure, some mythical company releases fully GPLd drivers, or usable > specs, a six months before their hardware is released. The kernel has > it in-tree a couple months before the hardware is released. Six months > after the hardware is released, a distro is released that actually *has* > that kernel. Several months after that you might be able to expect 5% > of the non-uber-geek OS consumer base to have a distro using that > kernel. Driver installation is getting worse? By what measure? It seems to have more in-tree coverage today than it has ever had. And the kernel developers have never put much effort into helping the closed-source driver people. Again, why should they? > Meanwhile, in the BSD, Windows, Solaris, whatever world, the company > releases a driver, and it works for 90% or more of the users. Sure, > some drivers fail on XP, some drivers don't work on 95/98, but you are > still, with a single driver, hitting far, far more of the user base than > you can do with Linux. Look, Linux follows a different model than those systems you talk about. It would be just as easy for those companies to release an open source version that could work for 90% or more of Linux users. But those companies for various reasons choose not to, again that's their decision. Why should open-source people change? Let those companies change if they want to be a part of the open-source operating system world. > I don't care about this proprietary vs open source issue. I fully > believe that Linux can *thrive* with a policy stating that *NO* non-GPLd > modules may *ever* be loaded into the kernel. That's what the Open > Source and Free Software activities truly want. Totally agreed. > The problem is entirely that fact that even *with* a fully GPLd driver > there is no reasonable way for a user to be capable of using it without > living on the bleeding edge and suffering through all the instability > and work that requires, as well as having the knowledge to do it all. I think you've overstated things here. There are hundreds of millions of people using Linux every day with no problem or suffering when they issue a Google search. Just because Linux is not perfect for every end-user situation is nothing to worry about or use as a basis to throw away the fundamental things that make Linux important. > > A stable kernel ABI is not necessarily important. I have argument for > it, but it's not paramount. A stable API, which the kernel also lacks, > *is* important. Alan mentioned DKMS - abso-fricken'-lutely useless with > an unstable API. Sure, the vendor releases the driver source for DKMS, > a nice graphical install tool is written for DKMS - too bad the driver > only compiles and runs on a handful of kernel releases. The new > "development model" just makes this problem even worse. It's only a problem for people who won't or can't play by the open source rules. If this excludes a large number of end-users today why should the kernel developers do anything but continue ahead to reach a point where things are better? Hardware isn't always going to fluctuate and change so wildly. > The big argument for a stable ABI, even with a "all drivers are always > GPL no matter what" system, is mainly during system install. I have > some system-critical hardware (disk controller, say) that my OS install > CDs don't support, install CDs do not have the environment to compile > big drivers, a stable ABI would let the vendor ship some CDs/diskettes > that the install can pull the driver off of to install. Again, very > rare situation, most users in the real world do not and never will > install an OS on their own, not that important. Agreed. > At the very least, however, without a stable API, the Linux kernel and > its driver situation is just screwing users constantly. I think you're putting the blame on the wrong people. > General system ABI is another story. If I can't install the app I > bought/downloaded/wrote even just a year ago because the glibc > maintainers decided to change something or the GCC developer found a way > to get a .05% performance boost with this piddly little ABI break then > there is a massive usability problem. One could ship apps as source and > have them recompile on install, but for one, that is just far too slow, > for two, the system APIs change too, and for three, proprietary apps are > a reality that aren't going away anytime in the forseeable future. Proprietary apps are only a distant concern to the people building an open-source operating system. The fact that they work at all has lead to this increased expectation. All of the problems you list are pretty well non-issues for people who buy redhat enterprise products. Hardware vendors could target drivers for that particular distribution etc. > No matter how much work the upstream people and distros puts into making > insanely usable GUIs, amazingly efficient systems, and superbly stable > and secure code, it's all fairly useless to anyone but a geek if you > can't install the OS or install any apps you want to run on it. There are a vast number of people who couldn't install Windows either and the number of people who wreck their Windows installation configuring it for themselves is further proof that the standard being held up doesn't even exist in the Windows world. That said, hardware vendors could very easily provide source level drivers for Linux and solve most of the issues. The wrong people are being asked to change their ways here. The developers are busy building an open source operating system. Those who want to play, need to conform themselves to the situation, not the other way around. Sean From mpeters at mac.com Mon Nov 22 00:59:39 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:59:39 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101082878.10304.24.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> (from elanthis@awesomeplay.com on Sun Nov 21 16:21:17 2004) References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101082878.10304.24.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> Message-ID: <1101085179l.5237l.9l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/21/2004 04:21:17 PM, Sean Middleditch wrote: > Sure, some mythical company releases fully GPLd drivers, or > usable > specs, a six months before their hardware is released. The kernel > has > it in-tree a couple months before the hardware is released. Six > months > after the hardware is released, a distro is released that actually > *has* > that kernel. Several months after that you might be able to expect > 5% > of the non-uber-geek OS consumer base to have a distro using that > kernel. My experience differs. Bought an nforce2 (ayn8x deluxe) board shortly after they were released. RH8 did not support the NVidia nic, the 3com nic, or the sound card. I had to get them from nvidia. The sound card (nvidias driver was basically the kernel driver) and the 3com nic (I think a two line patch to the existing 3com driver) were already in the alan cox tree, and were in the next kernel - and in every singly linux distribution that shipped after 2.4.21 I think it was. Update to RH8 kernel also provided for both. Bought Windows XP SP1 about 7 months later - were those drivers in there? No. I had to install a tulip nic just so I could download the drivers - because MS did not change their 3com driver to support the onboard 3com nic. The Linux community was very fast at including drivers for my new hardware in the kernel, and in every distribution after it was in the kernel - and in distributions released before it was in the kernel through kernel updates (often same kernel they shipped, but they patched the 3com driver and i810 audio driver for my hardware) From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Mon Nov 22 01:07:56 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:07:56 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <44063.10.10.10.28.1101084488.squirrel@10.10.10.28> References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101082878.10304.24.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <44063.10.10.10.28.1101084488.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: <1101085676.10304.50.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 19:48 -0500, Sean wrote: > Perhaps Linux is not ready for this market yet, someday we will be. Why > should the developers drop everything and service this segment today? Because you can't ever service them if things don't change. Try reading what I wrote... If Linux isn't ready *now*, then obviously that's because something is wrong. That something is what I addressed. Either it changes, and Linux becomes ready, or it doesn't change, and it never becomes ready. Simple. > > > I have build, configured, and administrated numerous Linux machines for > > friends and family over the last couple years, and *each* and *every* > > single one of them are now Windows boxes. And the exact reason why is > > *entirely* because of the installation of software (ABI doesn't matter > > to anyone but the end users, which Open Source developers don't ever > > seem to care about) and driver installation. > > There are already cheap computers that can be purchased at Wal-Mart that > come with Linux pre-installed and the user need never know or care about > Linux or configuring hardware. Yes. Practically no-name brand computers that very few people buy, and most who do are very likely to install Windows down the road. I've watches *many* people gladly pay $200 for a copy of Windows to install on the dirt-cheap Linux-based computer provided them. > > > Driver installation is only getting worse in Linux. In-tree drivers are > > only useful if the driver exists in the version of the tree the user > > has. Sure, some mythical company releases fully GPLd drivers, or usable > > specs, a six months before their hardware is released. The kernel has > > it in-tree a couple months before the hardware is released. Six months > > after the hardware is released, a distro is released that actually *has* > > that kernel. Several months after that you might be able to expect 5% > > of the non-uber-geek OS consumer base to have a distro using that > > kernel. > > Driver installation is getting worse? By what measure? It seems to have > more in-tree coverage today than it has ever had. And the kernel > developers have never put much effort into helping the closed-source > driver people. Again, why should they? Did you even read a single word in the above paragraph past the first sentence? You just asked a series of questions that the entire paragraph is dedicated to. > > > Meanwhile, in the BSD, Windows, Solaris, whatever world, the company > > releases a driver, and it works for 90% or more of the users. Sure, > > some drivers fail on XP, some drivers don't work on 95/98, but you are > > still, with a single driver, hitting far, far more of the user base than > > you can do with Linux. > > Look, Linux follows a different model than those systems you talk about. > It would be just as easy for those companies to release an open source > version that could work for 90% or more of Linux users. But those What, BSD isn't open source anymore? > companies for various reasons choose not to, again that's their decision. > Why should open-source people change? Let those companies change if > they want to be a part of the open-source operating system world. > > > I don't care about this proprietary vs open source issue. I fully > > believe that Linux can *thrive* with a policy stating that *NO* non-GPLd > > modules may *ever* be loaded into the kernel. That's what the Open > > Source and Free Software activities truly want. > > Totally agreed. > > > The problem is entirely that fact that even *with* a fully GPLd driver > > there is no reasonable way for a user to be capable of using it without > > living on the bleeding edge and suffering through all the instability > > and work that requires, as well as having the knowledge to do it all. > > I think you've overstated things here. There are hundreds of millions of > people using Linux every day with no problem or suffering when they issue > a Google search. Just because Linux is not perfect for every end-user > situation is nothing to worry about or use as a basis to throw away the > fundamental things that make Linux important. What fundamental things? It being GPL? There are dozens and dozens of open source operating systems around these days. Linux is only being discussed on this list, and only of interest to those hundreds of millions of people, because it got to a point of being actually useful. Linux's fundamental point to many people is that it's a great OS from a technical perspective that is usable to many people. Open Source is a means to that end. It is not the end itself. To some, perhaps, but not all. > > > > > A stable kernel ABI is not necessarily important. I have argument for > > it, but it's not paramount. A stable API, which the kernel also lacks, > > *is* important. Alan mentioned DKMS - abso-fricken'-lutely useless with > > an unstable API. Sure, the vendor releases the driver source for DKMS, > > a nice graphical install tool is written for DKMS - too bad the driver > > only compiles and runs on a handful of kernel releases. The new > > "development model" just makes this problem even worse. > > It's only a problem for people who won't or can't play by the open source > rules. If this excludes a large number of end-users today why should the > kernel developers do anything but continue ahead to reach a point where > things are better? Hardware isn't always going to fluctuate and change > so wildly. And this is where my point lies. It is developers thinking like you who are guaranteeing that Linux is a niche OS. "Who gives a flying hoot about users, let's just keep playing with our toy." They are "not playing by the open source rules" ? What are those rules? You have to be a total dork who lives and breathes Linux and runs the latest bleeding edge or builds your own kernels to be able to get any hardware to work, and even then only if you're lucky? > > > The big argument for a stable ABI, even with a "all drivers are always > > GPL no matter what" system, is mainly during system install. I have > > some system-critical hardware (disk controller, say) that my OS install > > CDs don't support, install CDs do not have the environment to compile > > big drivers, a stable ABI would let the vendor ship some CDs/diskettes > > that the install can pull the driver off of to install. Again, very > > rare situation, most users in the real world do not and never will > > install an OS on their own, not that important. > > Agreed. > > > At the very least, however, without a stable API, the Linux kernel and > > its driver situation is just screwing users constantly. > > I think you're putting the blame on the wrong people. I think you aren't reading my arguments. > > > General system ABI is another story. If I can't install the app I > > bought/downloaded/wrote even just a year ago because the glibc > > maintainers decided to change something or the GCC developer found a way > > to get a .05% performance boost with this piddly little ABI break then > > there is a massive usability problem. One could ship apps as source and > > have them recompile on install, but for one, that is just far too slow, > > for two, the system APIs change too, and for three, proprietary apps are > > a reality that aren't going away anytime in the forseeable future. > > Proprietary apps are only a distant concern to the people building an > open-source operating system. The fact that they work at all has lead to > this increased expectation. All of the problems you list are pretty well > non-issues for people who buy redhat enterprise products. Hardware > vendors could target drivers for that particular distribution etc. No, they are not non-existent. I run RHEL on many systems, and still run into these problems. Each version of RHEL is incompatible, and it is not the only "enterprise" Linux OS in existence > > > No matter how much work the upstream people and distros puts into making > > insanely usable GUIs, amazingly efficient systems, and superbly stable > > and secure code, it's all fairly useless to anyone but a geek if you > > can't install the OS or install any apps you want to run on it. > > There are a vast number of people who couldn't install Windows either and > the number of people who wreck their Windows installation configuring it > for themselves is further proof that the standard being held up doesn't > even exist in the Windows world. That said, hardware vendors could very > easily provide source level drivers for Linux and solve most of the Not if read the primary argument in my mail. Source is useless to people who cannot compile it. > issues. The wrong people are being asked to change their ways here. > The developers are busy building an open source operating system. Those > who want to play, need to conform themselves to the situation, not the > other way around. And one of the prime points myself and others have been making is that an open source operating system is useless. It's a political toy. Many kernel developers do *not* share your vision, and very users do. Linux is interesting because it is a powerful UNIX-like OS that is stable, secure, offers an excellent development platform, and has many interesting applications and operating environments like KDE and GNOME. The fact that it's Open Source itself isn't of interest - it's just something that helped Linux get where it is. Absolutely *NOTHING* I argued for in my mail stops Linux from being an Open Source operating system. Nothing. I even explicitly stated that I'm fine with Linux (the kernel) becoming even *more* GPL-centric. The problem is that even *developers* have a difficult time because not only to ABIs break, but APIs break. You *have* be development-savvy and keep on the bleeding edge to get anywhere with Linux in many cases. And there's *NO* reason for it. None. It is completely fixable without breaking your vision of what is fundamental to Linux. > > Sean > > From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 22 01:26:48 2004 From: seanlkml at sympatico.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:26:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101085676.10304.50.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101082878.10304.24.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <44063.10.10.10.28.1101084488.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101085676.10304.50.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> Message-ID: <44197.10.10.10.28.1101086808.squirrel@10.10.10.28> On Sun, November 21, 2004 8:07 pm, Sean Middleditch said: > On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 19:48 -0500, Sean wrote: > Because you can't ever service them if things don't change. Try reading > what I wrote... > > If Linux isn't ready *now*, then obviously that's because something is > wrong. That something is what I addressed. Either it changes, and > Linux becomes ready, or it doesn't change, and it never becomes ready. > Simple. No i don't think you've listed the only options. I've installed FC3 on two computer recently and they just simply worked. No geek factor needed, put the DVD in the drive and follow the installation screens. Done deal. The fact that there are machines that don't go so easily will be resolved when more drivers come compiled in kernel and when hardware doesn't change quite so often. Simple. > Yes. Practically no-name brand computers that very few people buy, and > most who do are very likely to install Windows down the road. I've > watches *many* people gladly pay $200 for a copy of Windows to install > on the dirt-cheap Linux-based computer provided them. Windows is the dominant operating system with way more applications than Linux, I don't think they main problem is hardware support here. > Did you even read a single word in the above paragraph past the first > sentence? You just asked a series of questions that the entire > paragraph is dedicated to. *shrug* So we need hardware developers to target Linux drivers sooner rather than later. Again, they're welcome to do that today with no changes required. Automatic updating of kernels can be built in to installation processes etc.. > What fundamental things? It being GPL? There are dozens and dozens of > open source operating systems around these days. Linux is only being > discussed on this list, and only of interest to those hundreds of > millions of people, because it got to a point of being actually useful. > Linux's fundamental point to many people is that it's a great OS from a > technical perspective that is usable to many people. Open Source is a > means to that end. It is not the end itself. To some, perhaps, but not > all. > That's fine, but the developers are involved because they are making an open source operating system. They aren't making a closed source operating system. > And this is where my point lies. It is developers thinking like you who > are guaranteeing that Linux is a niche OS. "Who gives a flying hoot > about users, let's just keep playing with our toy." So it's a niche operating system in its current state, lets not waste any time going in the wrong direction. Spend more time making a great operating system with huge amount of hardware support and the problems will eventually be much reduced. To a point where more and more people can use Linux without a problem or thought. Do you honestly think that if tomorrow Linux enforced an ABI that Windows would be supplanted any time soon? > No, they are not non-existent. I run RHEL on many systems, and still > run into these problems. Each version of RHEL is incompatible, and it > is not the only "enterprise" Linux OS in existence Ever try upgrading Windows 2.0 to 3 ? or 98 to 2000? Same problems. > Not if read the primary argument in my mail. Source is useless to > people who cannot compile it. Well, maybe looking at ways to get compiled source into the hands of end users would be more fruitful instead of demanding that developers change the nature of what they're doing. > And one of the prime points myself and others have been making is that > an open source operating system is useless. It's a political toy. Many > kernel developers do *not* share your vision, and very users do. Linux > is interesting because it is a powerful UNIX-like OS that is stable, > secure, offers an excellent development platform, and has many > interesting applications and operating environments like KDE and GNOME. > The fact that it's Open Source itself isn't of interest - it's just > something that helped Linux get where it is. Yes, and it's what will take it into the future successfully. There's very little reason to think that making it more like the other operating system choices would make it better. You say yourself BSD doesn't have this ABI problem yet it hasn't crushed Windows has it? > Absolutely *NOTHING* I argued for in my mail stops Linux from being an > Open Source operating system. Nothing. I even explicitly stated that > I'm fine with Linux (the kernel) becoming even *more* GPL-centric. The > problem is that even *developers* have a difficult time because not only > to ABIs break, but APIs break. You *have* be development-savvy and keep > on the bleeding edge to get anywhere with Linux in many cases. And > there's *NO* reason for it. None. It is completely fixable without > breaking your vision of what is fundamental to Linux. Ok, then perhaps there's less that differentiates our positions than I thought. The developers feel that having the flexibility to change the ABI is a net win. Of course it creates problems for some, but over all it has allowed Linux to get where it is today, so it can't be all that bad a strategy. Cheers, Sean From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Mon Nov 22 02:23:17 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:23:17 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <44197.10.10.10.28.1101086808.squirrel@10.10.10.28> References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101082878.10304.24.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <44063.10.10.10.28.1101084488.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101085676.10304.50.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <44197.10.10.10.28.1101086808.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: <1101090197.10304.75.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 20:26 -0500, Sean wrote: > No i don't think you've listed the only options. I've installed FC3 on > two computer recently and they just simply worked. No geek factor > needed, put the DVD in the drive and follow the installation screens. > Done deal. The fact that there are machines that don't go so easily will > be resolved when more drivers come compiled in kernel and when hardware > doesn't change quite so often. Simple. You have gotten the OS installed. Congratulations. If that is the entire reason you own a computer - to install an OS on it - then you *really* need something else to do with your time. ;-) > > > Yes. Practically no-name brand computers that very few people buy, and > > most who do are very likely to install Windows down the road. I've > > watches *many* people gladly pay $200 for a copy of Windows to install > > on the dirt-cheap Linux-based computer provided them. > > Windows is the dominant operating system with way more applications than > Linux, I don't think they main problem is hardware support here. No, it's application installation support, which is dependent on system ABI stability. There are two parts to my mail - system and kernel interfaces. Don't confuse them, they are *completely* separate issues. One affects only drivers, while the other affects only applications. So far as system ABI stability, the Linux kernel does a fantastic job of maintaining the part of it that the kernel is responsible for. The things that do break are fringe elements that the vast majority of applications never touch. The Linux developers aren't hurting application developers - the glibc, GCC, and various other library developers and packagers are. > > > Did you even read a single word in the above paragraph past the first > > sentence? You just asked a series of questions that the entire > > paragraph is dedicated to. > > *shrug* So we need hardware developers to target Linux drivers sooner > rather than later. Again, they're welcome to do that today with no > changes required. Automatic updating of kernels can be built in to > installation processes etc.. You want the hardware developers to target Linux several years before the hardware is even released? Can I have the pipe for a few moments? ;-) > > > What fundamental things? It being GPL? There are dozens and dozens of > > open source operating systems around these days. Linux is only being > > discussed on this list, and only of interest to those hundreds of > > millions of people, because it got to a point of being actually useful. > > Linux's fundamental point to many people is that it's a great OS from a > > technical perspective that is usable to many people. Open Source is a > > means to that end. It is not the end itself. To some, perhaps, but not > > all. > > > > That's fine, but the developers are involved because they are making an > open source operating system. They aren't making a closed source > operating system. Yes. Thank you for pointing that out. It's relevance to this discussion is...? > > > And this is where my point lies. It is developers thinking like you who > > are guaranteeing that Linux is a niche OS. "Who gives a flying hoot > > about users, let's just keep playing with our toy." > > So it's a niche operating system in its current state, lets not waste any > time going in the wrong direction. Spend more time making a great > operating system with huge amount of hardware support and the problems > will eventually be much reduced. To a point where more and more people > can use Linux without a problem or thought. Do you honestly think that if > tomorrow Linux enforced an ABI that Windows would be supplanted any time > soon? Soon? Not really. Until a stable ABI *is* enforced, it won't happen. Linux could get a stable ABI tomorrow and supplanting would be several years away from tomorrow, or it get could a stable ABI a decade from now and supplanting would be several years away from *then*. You seem to think that hardware churn will decrease. What makes you think that? Hardware vendors are in *no* hurry to commit corporate suicide, trust me, and hardware stagnation would be exactly that. New hardware needs new features or nobody has any reason to upgrade. > > > > No, they are not non-existent. I run RHEL on many systems, and still > > run into these problems. Each version of RHEL is incompatible, and it > > is not the only "enterprise" Linux OS in existence > > Ever try upgrading Windows 2.0 to 3 ? or 98 to 2000? Same problems. 2.0 to 3 is irrelevant - they're over a fricken decade old! Why don't you try comparing Linux to the abicus(sp) next? ;-) I've not had many troubles installing apps on 95, 98, 2000, ME, XP, or 2003. There are incompatibilities sometimes, yes. There always will be. The difference is, Windows has a far, far, far smaller percentage of users with compatibility problems on a day-to-day basis than Linux does. The differences between the six-month-apart releases of FC2 and FC3 have caused me more compatibility headaches than upgrading between the many- years-apart differences between Windows 98 and Windows XP. I'm fine with that because I'm an uber geek and for all the headaches, I'm personally happier dealing with them than the problems I perceive in Windows. Problems which, I'll note, no non-developer person I know perceives. > > > > Not if read the primary argument in my mail. Source is useless to > > people who cannot compile it. > > Well, maybe looking at ways to get compiled source into the hands of end > users would be more fruitful instead of demanding that developers change > the nature of what they're doing. Compiled source... binaries? I'm thinking we're having a communication problem here. a) How do you pre-compile source that will not compile because the developers break the API, requiring the source to be modified, without waiting for said modifications? b) How do users use pre-compiled binaries that don't run because developers break the ABI, requiring a different set of binaries and thus requiring an enormous and completely unmanageable number of different binaries to be built and exist for most users? > > > And one of the prime points myself and others have been making is that > > an open source operating system is useless. It's a political toy. Many > > kernel developers do *not* share your vision, and very users do. Linux > > is interesting because it is a powerful UNIX-like OS that is stable, > > secure, offers an excellent development platform, and has many > > interesting applications and operating environments like KDE and GNOME. > > The fact that it's Open Source itself isn't of interest - it's just > > something that helped Linux get where it is. > > Yes, and it's what will take it into the future successfully. There's > very little reason to think that making it more like the other operating > system choices would make it better. You say yourself BSD doesn't have > this ABI problem yet it hasn't crushed Windows has it? Excellent point. I do wonder, honestly, why BSD lags behind Linux in popularity. I'd wager it's simply a matter of "luck" - Linux happened to hit the limelight where BSD did not. > > > > Absolutely *NOTHING* I argued for in my mail stops Linux from being an > > Open Source operating system. Nothing. I even explicitly stated that > > I'm fine with Linux (the kernel) becoming even *more* GPL-centric. The > > problem is that even *developers* have a difficult time because not only > > to ABIs break, but APIs break. You *have* be development-savvy and keep > > on the bleeding edge to get anywhere with Linux in many cases. And > > there's *NO* reason for it. None. It is completely fixable without > > breaking your vision of what is fundamental to Linux. > > > Ok, then perhaps there's less that differentiates our positions than I > thought. The developers feel that having the flexibility to change the > ABI is a net win. Of course it creates problems for some, but over all it > has allowed Linux to get where it is today, so it can't be all that bad a > strategy. The changing ABI hasn't in any way been responsible for anything. The ABI changes because the ABI wasn't designed properly in the first place, and because people are lazy and would rather just make some small changes to the ABI instead of introducing a new, parallel improved one. Take the NVIDIA driver, for example, which is a huge binary-only driver example. The breaks it has had, with the exception of the 8k stack issue, have been very, very minor changes in the kernel. Functions being renamed or parameters changing. That is absolutely avoidable. The kernel developers just don't want to. Now take a project like GNOME or KDE. Absolutely huge. All GPL or LGPL. And they absolutely maintain strict API and ABI compatibility. The only time you run into an ABI problem with those frameworks is when the underlying OS or compiler breaks the ABI under them. Between fixing the kernel and the main system libraries, I'll go for the libraries. I've seen far more problems due to application incompatibilities than I have from hardware incompatibilities, no question. *Both* are fixable, however, and I see no reason why they shouldn't be. The people responsible just don't seem to care. I'm hoping that'll change. > > Cheers, > Sean > > From avibrazil at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 03:12:03 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:12:03 -0200 Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:34:35 -0500 (EST), Dan Williams wrote: > 1) What desktop environment? KDE > 2) Do you have openoffice.org-kde package installed if you're using KDE? Yep > 3) What's your normal application font from the desktop env? Tahoma, with a byte code interpreter enabled FreeType lib. My desktop looks simply great. But OOo fonts still looks like s***t. Any idea ? From mpeters at mac.com Mon Nov 22 03:28:44 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 03:28:44 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101090197.10304.75.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> (from elanthis@awesomeplay.com on Sun Nov 21 18:23:17 2004) References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101082878.10304.24.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <44063.10.10.10.28.1101084488.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101085676.10304.50.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <44197.10.10.10.28.1101086808.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101090197.10304.75.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> Message-ID: <1101094124l.5237l.12l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/21/2004 06:23:17 PM, Sean Middleditch wrote: > The difference is, Windows has a far, far, far smaller percentage > of users with compatibility problems on a day-to-day basis than Linux > does. Oh really? Is that just personal experience or are there stats? > > The differences between the six-month-apart releases of FC2 and FC3 > have > caused me more compatibility headaches than upgrading between the > many- > years-apart differences between Windows 98 and Windows XP. Anecdotal. SP1 to SP2 of XP caused me more issues than any linux upgrade ever did. I had to boot SP2 in recovery mode to uninstall virus software that Microsoft recommended as a good vendor for virus checking because the software had a kernel driver that did not work with SP2 - and unlike Linux where a module just simply doesn't load but boot continues, WinXP completely refused to boot except to that aweful emergency mode thing. All because of virus protection software, which definately should not have prevented XP from booting. From mpeters at mac.com Mon Nov 22 03:36:25 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 03:36:25 +0000 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101094124l.5237l.12l@devel.mpeters.us> (from mpeters@mac.com on Sun Nov 21 19:28:44 2004) References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101082878.10304.24.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <44063.10.10.10.28.1101084488.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101085676.10304.50.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <44197.10.10.10.28.1101086808.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101090197.10304.75.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <1101094124l.5237l.12l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1101094585l.5237l.13l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/21/2004 07:28:44 PM, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > Anecdotal. > > SP1 to SP2 of XP caused me more issues than any linux upgrade ever > did. > I had to boot SP2 in recovery mode to uninstall virus software that > Microsoft recommended as a good vendor for virus checking because the > software had a kernel driver that did not work with SP2 - and unlike > Linux where a module just simply doesn't load but boot continues, > WinXP completely refused to boot except to that aweful emergency mode > thing. All because of virus protection software, which definately > should not have prevented XP from booting. I would also like to note my experience with a SCSI card - Linux booted no problem with both internal and external drives attached, Windows would boot with one or the other - but not both. Termination and SCSI ID's were not the issue. The Linux driver was open source in the kernel. The windows card was proprietary closed source. From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 22 03:39:27 2004 From: seanlkml at sympatico.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:39:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101090197.10304.75.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101082878.10304.24.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <44063.10.10.10.28.1101084488.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101085676.10304.50.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <44197.10.10.10.28.1101086808.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101090197.10304.75.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> Message-ID: <44514.10.10.10.28.1101094767.squirrel@10.10.10.28> On Sun, November 21, 2004 9:23 pm, Sean Middleditch said: > You have gotten the OS installed. Congratulations. If that is the > entire reason you own a computer - to install an OS on it - then you > *really* need something else to do with your time. ;-) Well in both the cases everything I needed was actually part of the distribution. While rpm isn't perfect I find that many times finding a precompiled rpm of 3rd party applications targetted for the distro isn't hard. Installing the application is little more than a mouse click on a web page. > No, it's application installation support, which is dependent on system > ABI stability. There are two parts to my mail - system and kernel > interfaces. Don't confuse them, they are *completely* separate issues. > One affects only drivers, while the other affects only applications. I was only talking about kernel interfaces. > So far as system ABI stability, the Linux kernel does a fantastic job of > maintaining the part of it that the kernel is responsible for. The > things that do break are fringe elements that the vast majority of > applications never touch. The Linux developers aren't hurting > application developers - the glibc, GCC, and various other library > developers and packagers are. Yes, the kernel developers have done a great job protecting the end-user from arbitrary changes. > You want the hardware developers to target Linux several years before > the hardware is even released? Can I have the pipe for a few > moments? ;-) Heh, well I don't think it has to be that far in advance. With automatic system updates etc, as long as theres a reasonable lead time before product release things should all come together nicely for the end user. Even if the particular hardware isn't supported in the kernel version on the DVD platter s/he installs from. > Yes. Thank you for pointing that out. It's relevance to this > discussion is...? Didn't do a good job of relaying my point. You were saying that open-source was incidental to Linux and I was trying to show that in fact it is fundamental. Any developer working (on the kernel at least) is only doing so because the source is available. Thus everyone, whether they're gung-ho open-sourcers or not, has benefited from the open source nature of Linux. I see now that you were speaking in broader terms than just the Linux kernel and perhaps you were speaking less of open source per se and more of solid API/ABI's. > Soon? Not really. Until a stable ABI *is* enforced, it won't happen. > Linux could get a stable ABI tomorrow and supplanting would be several > years away from tomorrow, or it get could a stable ABI a decade from now > and supplanting would be several years away from *then*. > > You seem to think that hardware churn will decrease. What makes you > think that? Hardware vendors are in *no* hurry to commit corporate > suicide, trust me, and hardware stagnation would be exactly that. New > hardware needs new features or nobody has any reason to upgrade. Well, things stabalize and get used for a long time. Look how SATA is already supported in the kernel. It's hard to complain that something is wrong with this situation at least at the kernel level. > 2.0 to 3 is irrelevant - they're over a fricken decade old! Why don't > you try comparing Linux to the abicus(sp) next? ;-) Damn, you just preempted my next example ;o) > I've not had many troubles installing apps on 95, 98, 2000, ME, XP, or > 2003. There are incompatibilities sometimes, yes. There always will > be. The difference is, Windows has a far, far, far smaller percentage > of users with compatibility problems on a day-to-day basis than Linux > does. Again, I wasn't talking about the application level in my previous email. But what's wrong with the current focus on creating easy-to-use repositories for applications? Binaries can be compiled for many different distros and the proper version is selected without the end-user having to have a clue. > The differences between the six-month-apart releases of FC2 and FC3 have > caused me more compatibility headaches than upgrading between the many- > years-apart differences between Windows 98 and Windows XP. > > I'm fine with that because I'm an uber geek and for all the headaches, > I'm personally happier dealing with them than the problems I perceive in > Windows. Problems which, I'll note, no non-developer person I know > perceives. > Yes, Fedora is probably a bad example because it's not meant for the people you're fussing over anyway ;o) > Compiled source... binaries? I was trying to make the distinction between binary-only modules and binaries-compiled-from-public-source. > I'm thinking we're having a communication problem here. > > a) How do you pre-compile source that will not compile because the > developers break the API, requiring the source to be modified, without > waiting for said modifications? Presumably new versions will be released that target the new API. Until then, the old libraries are often included along with the new. For instance gtk 1.2 was including until recently even though things had moved on to version 2.0. > b) How do users use pre-compiled binaries that don't run because > developers break the ABI, requiring a different set of binaries and thus > requiring an enormous and completely unmanageable number of different > binaries to be built and exist for most users? Repositories of software are becoming more popular and provide precompiled versions for a wide variety of distros. > The changing ABI hasn't in any way been responsible for anything. The > ABI changes because the ABI wasn't designed properly in the first place, > and because people are lazy and would rather just make some small > changes to the ABI instead of introducing a new, parallel improved one. > > Take the NVIDIA driver, for example, which is a huge binary-only driver > example. The breaks it has had, with the exception of the 8k stack > issue, have been very, very minor changes in the kernel. Functions > being renamed or parameters changing. That is absolutely avoidable. > The kernel developers just don't want to. Ok, but obviously such decisions benefit the developers. And there is a long history of such decisions by kernel developers, back to ummm, the start of Linux. And Linux has still managed to become successful. Now binary-only people are complaining that their life is made more difficult than what they experience in the Windows world. Well, I think the needs of the open-source developers wins out here. They're the ones contributing the most to the community. Linux is getting in a stronger bargaining position all the time. Eventually, the market will be big enough that the hardware vendors will _have_ to play by the open-source rules if they want to compete in that segment of the market. I see no reason for the developers to cave in and make their lives more difficult for the needs of the closed-sourced hardware manufacturers who offer nothing in return but demands. Since more and more manufacturers are speaking chinese these days, it may well be that we'll see a general warming to the open-source model in general and Linux in particular. Who knows. > Now take a project like GNOME or KDE. Absolutely huge. All GPL or > LGPL. And they absolutely maintain strict API and ABI compatibility. > The only time you run into an ABI problem with those frameworks is when > the underlying OS or compiler breaks the ABI under them. > > Between fixing the kernel and the main system libraries, I'll go for the > libraries. I've seen far more problems due to application > incompatibilities than I have from hardware incompatibilities, no > question. *Both* are fixable, however, and I see no reason why they > shouldn't be. > > The people responsible just don't seem to care. I'm hoping that'll > change. The people doing the work are serving their own needs. Open source works because people contribute what _they_ personally need for themselves back to the community. Obviously it's not pure altruism that drives open source. You have to ask yourself why the developers should care? Are the problems you describe an issue for open-source developers? If they are, then you can be sure the open source developers will be solving the problem. Sean From alan at redhat.com Mon Nov 22 08:03:06 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 03:03:06 -0500 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101076499.3267.35.camel@littlegreen> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> <20041121220721.GR18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101076499.3267.35.camel@littlegreen> Message-ID: <20041122080306.GA9183@devserv.devel.redhat.com> > > Vendors do recognize the trade off. RHEL3 has a fixed ABI as best we can > > manage it, but its a hard job. > > It's not really fixed. It's just that RHEL revs less often. The next rev > will still be incompatible with the previous. The ABI is currently maintained across quarterly revisions too with RHEL3. So its more akin to the Windows world were 95 broke everything, NT needed new drivers and so on. From arjanv at redhat.com Mon Nov 22 08:07:35 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:07:35 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101083167.22440.57.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> <20041121220721.GR18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101076499.3267.35.camel@littlegreen> <43804.10.10.10.28.1101077161.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101083167.22440.57.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: <1101110854.2813.11.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 19:26 -0500, Paul Iadonisi wrote: > *Someone* will produce a decent graphics card on Linux and provide > Free Software drivers that will end up in the stock distributions of the > Linux kernel and X.org. give intel and via 2 more generations... Already the new intel 9xx series is a step forward. Granted, it's not yet there for the serious gamers, but it's a huge step forward. Two more such steps... And intel is being a very nice player and not only allows others to make drivers, but even funded the writing of the drivers. > Any company migrating most of their desktops to Linux will suddenly > see an opportunity. Some additional percentage (1-2% maybe?) of their also, remember that most business desktop people do NOT need 3D. In fact, employers rather not have their employees play games at work :) In that market, the extra $100 for the nvidia card is just added expense, and even if it comes built into the machine, the nv driver will be good enough -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From alan at redhat.com Mon Nov 22 08:18:28 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 03:18:28 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: References: <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041122081828.GB9183@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 07:34:35PM -0500, Dan Williams wrote: > What desktop environment are you using? OOo pulls the UI font from the > desktop environment, in the GNOME case from GTK, and in the KDE case from > QT. You should try changing the system-wide application font to see if > that helps. But if you could check a copule things: I get the same problem btw - Gnome uses a sensible font but OpenOffice chooses some ghastly fixed font for the widgets. In my case this is locale dependant and the bug was put down to font issues and limits in Oo's font capabilities compared with Gnome/KDE. From rdieter at math.unl.edu Mon Nov 22 08:20:27 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:20:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Avi Alkalay wrote: >> 3) What's your normal application font from the desktop env? > > Tahoma, with a byte code interpreter enabled FreeType lib. My desktop > looks simply great. But OOo fonts still looks like s***t. Ironically, could be the fact you've enabled the byte-code interpreter. Try backing out that change. -- Rex From rc040203 at freenet.de Mon Nov 22 08:41:24 2004 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:41:24 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101110854.2813.11.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <42868.10.10.10.28.1101058668.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <200411211928.10941.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121201928.GO18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101071430.3267.21.camel@littlegreen> <20041121220721.GR18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101076499.3267.35.camel@littlegreen> <43804.10.10.10.28.1101077161.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101083167.22440.57.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1101110854.2813.11.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1101112885.13705.514.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> On Mon, 2004-11-22 at 09:07 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > also, remember that most business desktop people do NOT need 3D. In > fact, employers rather not have their employees play games at work :) > In that market, the extra $100 for the nvidia card is just added > expense, and even if it comes built into the machine, the nv driver will > be good enough Except when the nv driver does not work at all or when you, like me, are actively working at 3D-applications. Ralf From mlauterbach at mail.wtamu.edu Mon Nov 22 08:57:53 2004 From: mlauterbach at mail.wtamu.edu (Matthew E. Lauterbach) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:57:53 -0600 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101112885.13705.514.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <20041122085754.D918D3E650B@mail.wtamu.edu> > like me, are actively working at 3D-applications. That's what I would tell my boss too. :) Matthew E. Lauterbach From kyrre at solution-forge.net Mon Nov 22 10:42:12 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:42:12 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <1101071557.3312.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041121200624.GH18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101071557.3312.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101120132.8108.4.camel@kyrre> s?n, 21.11.2004 kl. 22.12 skrev Per Bjornsson: > On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 15:06 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 03:40:36PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > > > I bought a 3D game. I want to play it. > > > > > > a) Go back to Windows > > > b) Use a binary driver on Linux > > > > c) Radeon 9x00 > > Unfortunately, at the moment that is still only true for x<=2. Good > enough for my purposes (I enjoy the fact that my Radeon 9000 doesn't > have a fan...) but people who actually care about serious gaming etc are > unlikely to agree. > > Nowadays there is a somewhat promising reverse-engineering effort going > on for the r300 Radeons as well, with some basic stuff figured out. It's > unlikely to result in any hardcore-gamer class drivers anytime soon but > it might result in cool-desktop grade 3D if things keep up. > (http://r300.sf.net for anyone who's interested, especially people with > r300 hardware available to help out...) OT: When talking about reverse enginering - having a properitary Linux driver must be easier than having a properitary windows driver? For instance - take the (halfway) prop. captive NTFS drivers. You could probably make an instrument a kernel to "look" the windows dll's over the shoulder in order to se what they are doing - and implement it in the all-open source/free drivers? From avibrazil at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 11:12:27 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:12:27 -0300 Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:20:27 -0600 (CST), Rex Dieter wrote: > On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > >> 3) What's your normal application font from the desktop env? > > > > Tahoma, with a byte code interpreter enabled FreeType lib. My desktop > > looks simply great. But OOo fonts still looks like s***t. > > Ironically, could be the fact you've enabled the byte-code interpreter. > Try backing out that change. Impossible. Then all my desktop will look like s*****it. Any better idea ? From buildsys at redhat.com Mon Nov 22 12:44:19 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:44:19 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041122 changes Message-ID: <200411221244.iAMCiJm18282@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: apr-0.9.5-1 ----------- * Sun Nov 21 2004 Joe Orton 0.9.5-1 - update to 0.9.5 * Mon Sep 27 2004 Joe Orton 0.9.4-24 - rebuild * Wed Sep 01 2004 Joe Orton 0.9.4-23 - have -devel require apr of same V-R hwdata-0.148-1 -------------- * Sun Nov 21 2004 Bill Nottingham - 0.148-1 - add Amptron monitors (#139142) im-sdk-1:12.1-9 --------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Leon Ho - 1:12.1-9 - add im-sdk-htt_xbe-crash.patch into spec (Yu Shao, #134035) * Fri Nov 19 2004 Akira TAGOH - im-sdk-12.1-x-xft.patch: use sans-serif font instead of serif font. (#140000) - iiimsf-disable-super-help-hotkey.patch: disabled "SUPER HELP" hotkey for a workaround, because of it's not used right now. (#140014) * Fri Nov 19 2004 Leon Ho - im-sdk-12.1-x-xft-highlight.patch: Fixed candidate highlight (#135366) libxslt-1.1.12-3 ---------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.1.12-3 - rebuild for python 2.4 * Fri Oct 29 2004 Daniel Veillard - upstream release 1.1.12 see http://xmlsoft.org/XSLT/news.html * Sun Nov 02 2003 Daniel Veillard - cleanup, removal of the deprecated breakpoint library and automated libxml2 dependancy level in the generated spec file. mrtg-2.10.15-2 -------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Jindrich Novy 2.10.15-2 - remove bogus characters from man pages to prevent man displaying the page is in wrong encoding (#139341) parted-1.6.18-1 --------------- * Sun Nov 21 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.6.18-1 - update to 1.6.18 rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041122 --------------------------- wordtrans-1.1pre13-9 -------------------- * Tue Nov 16 2004 Jindrich Novy 1.1pre13-9 - avoid to install man pages in old encoding #139341 From rdieter at math.unl.edu Mon Nov 22 13:38:10 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:38:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Avi Alkalay wrote: > On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:20:27 -0600 (CST), Rex Dieter > wrote: >> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Avi Alkalay wrote: >> >>>> 3) What's your normal application font from the desktop env? >>> >>> Tahoma, with a byte code interpreter enabled FreeType lib. My desktop >>> looks simply great. But OOo fonts still looks like s***t. >> >> Ironically, could be the fact you've enabled the byte-code interpreter. >> Try backing out that change. > > > Impossible. Then all my desktop will look like s*****it. Not impossible. I've seen cases where AA fonts look *worse* after turning on the byte-code interpreter. However, my bet is that you've possibly hit http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/133741 -- Rex From ndbecker2 at verizon.net Mon Nov 22 13:47:16 2004 From: ndbecker2 at verizon.net (Neal D. Becker) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:47:16 -0500 Subject: python 2.4 on FC3 Message-ID: I would like to test python 2.4 with boost-1.32. I have an FC3 system. Any suggestion on how to install python2.4 onto FC3 without breaking all the system utils that use python? Obviously, I can just build python from python.org source, but is there maybe an srpm that could be retarted to install in parallel to existing 2.3? From carwyn at carwyn.com Mon Nov 22 13:52:16 2004 From: carwyn at carwyn.com (Carwyn Edwards) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:52:16 +0000 Subject: python 2.4 on FC3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41A1EF10.4040805@carwyn.com> Neal D. Becker wrote: >Ibut is there maybe an srpm > > Yes there is: ftp://ftp.python.org/pub/python/2.4/rpms/ I haven't tried it on FC3 yet but in the past pydotorg SRPMS have usually installed quite happily in parallel to whatever is on FC at the time. Carwyn From dcbw at redhat.com Mon Nov 22 14:02:48 2004 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:02:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: <20041122081828.GB9183@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> <20041122081828.GB9183@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 07:34:35PM -0500, Dan Williams wrote: > > What desktop environment are you using? OOo pulls the UI font from the > > desktop environment, in the GNOME case from GTK, and in the KDE case from > > QT. You should try changing the system-wide application font to see if > > that helps. But if you could check a copule things: > > I get the same problem btw - Gnome uses a sensible font but OpenOffice > chooses some ghastly fixed font for the widgets. In my case this is locale > dependant and the bug was put down to font issues and limits in Oo's font > capabilities compared with Gnome/KDE. Ok, this is a known bug then, the OOo KDE code needs to do fontconfig substitution on the font that KDE returns using LANG as the constraint. Dan From dcbw at redhat.com Mon Nov 22 14:09:01 2004 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:09:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Rex Dieter wrote: > However, my bet is that you've possibly hit > http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/133741 That's probably the case here, yes. Dan From jorton at redhat.com Mon Nov 22 15:28:18 2004 From: jorton at redhat.com (Joe Orton) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:28:18 +0000 Subject: rawhide images/pxeboot issue? Message-ID: <20041122152818.GA21339@redhat.com> I've been unable to boot into the Raw Hide images/pxeboot/{vmlinuz,initrd.img} for a few days, is that just me or is something borked? 2.6.9-1.650_devel fails like: EXT2-fs: unable to read superblock isofs_fill_super: bread failed, dev=md0, iso_blknum=16, block=32 Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(9,0) (then loops forever saying: <4>atkbd.c: Spurious ACK on isa0060/serio0. Some program, like XFree86, might be trying access hardware directly. atkbd.c: Spurious ACK on isa0060/serio0. Some program, like XFree86, ight be trying access hardware directly. but I guess that's something different) -------------- next part -------------- Linux version 2.6.9-1.650_devel (bhcompile at loma.build.redhat.com) (gcc version 3.4.3 20041114 (Red Hat 3.4.3-3)) #1 Mon Nov 15 18:55:19 EST 2004 BIOS-provided physical RAM map: BIOS-e820: 0000000000000000 - 000000000009f800 (usable) BIOS-e820: 000000000009f800 - 00000000000a0000 (reserved) BIOS-e820: 00000000000e7000 - 0000000000100000 (reserved) BIOS-e820: 0000000000100000 - 00000000040fdc00 (usable) BIOS-e820: 00000000040fdc00 - 00000000040ff800 (ACPI data) BIOS-e820: 00000000040ff800 - 00000000040ffc00 (ACPI NVS) BIOS-e820: 00000000040ffc00 - 0000000020000000 (usable) BIOS-e820: 00000000fffe7000 - 0000000100000000 (reserved) 0MB HIGHMEM available. 512MB LOWMEM available. zapping low mappings. DMI 2.1 present. ACPI: BIOS age (1998) fails cutoff (2001), acpi=force is required to enable ACPI ACPI: Disabling ACPI support Built 1 zonelists Kernel command line: ks=http://tantra/~jorton/boot/trash.ks console=ttyS1,9600 Initializing CPU#0 CPU 0 irqstacks, hard=c03e2000 soft=c03e1000 PID hash table entries: 4096 (order: 12, 65536 bytes) Detected 398.325 MHz processor. Using tsc for high-res timesource Console: colour VGA+ 80x25 Dentry cache hash table entries: 131072 (order: 7, 524288 bytes) Inode-cache hash table entries: 65536 (order: 6, 262144 bytes) Memory: 512148k/524288k available (2113k kernel code, 11576k reserved, 653k data, 144k init, 0k highmem) Security Scaffold v1.0.0 initialized SELinux: Initializing. SELinux: Starting in permissive mode There is already a security framework initialized, register_security failed. selinux_register_security: Registering secondary module capability Capability LSM initialized as secondary Mount-cache hash table entries: 512 (order: 0, 4096 bytes) CPU: L1 I cache: 16K, L1 D cache: 16K CPU: L2 cache: 512K Intel machine check architecture supported. Intel machine check reporting enabled on CPU#0. CPU: Intel Pentium II (Deschutes) stepping 01 Enabling fast FPU save and restore... done. Checking 'hlt' instruction... OK. checking if image is initramfs... it is Freeing initrd memory: 3323k freed NET: Registered protocol family 16 PCI: PCI BIOS revision 2.10 entry at 0xfd9a3, last bus=1 PCI: Using configuration type 1 mtrr: v2.0 (20020519) ACPI: Subsystem revision 20040816 ACPI: Interpreter disabled. Linux Plug and Play Support v0.97 (c) Adam Belay usbcore: registered new driver usbfs usbcore: registered new driver hub PCI: Probing PCI hardware PCI: Probing PCI hardware (bus 00) PCI: Using IRQ router PIIX/ICH [8086/7110] at 0000:00:07.0 apm: BIOS version 1.2 Flags 0x03 (Driver version 1.16ac) audit: initializing netlink socket (disabled) audit(1101136707.169:0): initialized Total HugeTLB memory allocated, 0 VFS: Disk quotas dquot_6.5.1 Dquot-cache hash table entries: 1024 (order 0, 4096 bytes) SELinux: Registering netfilter hooks Initializing Cryptographic API ksign: Installing public key data Loading keyring - Added public key 9ADF323F9B7F3153 - User ID: Red Hat, Inc. (Kernel Module GPG key) Limiting direct PCI/PCI transfers. pci_hotplug: PCI Hot Plug PCI Core version: 0.5 vesafb: probe of vesafb0 failed with error -6 isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards... isapnp: Card 'CS4236B' isapnp: 1 Plug & Play card detected total Real Time Clock Driver v1.12 Linux agpgart interface v0.100 (c) Dave Jones agpgart: Detected an Intel 440BX Chipset. agpgart: Maximum main memory to use for agp memory: 440M agpgart: AGP aperture is 64M @ 0xf8000000 serio: i8042 AUX port at 0x60,0x64 irq 12 serio: i8042 KBD port at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 Serial: 8250/16550 driver $Revision: 1.90 $ 8 ports, IRQ sharing enabled ttyS0 at I/O 0x3f8 (irq = 4) is a 16550A ?ttyS1 at I/O 0x2f8 (irq = 3) is a 16550A RAMDISK driver initialized: 16 RAM disks of 16384K size 1024 blocksize Uniform Multi-Platform E-IDE driver Revision: 7.00alpha2 ide: Assuming 33MHz system bus speed for PIO modes; override with idebus=xx PIIX4: IDE controller at PCI slot 0000:00:07.1 PIIX4: chipset revision 1 PIIX4: not 100% native mode: will probe irqs later ide0: BM-DMA at 0x1460-0x1467, BIOS settings: hda:pio, hdb:DMA ide1: BM-DMA at 0x1468-0x146f, BIOS settings: hdc:DMA, hdd:pio hda: QUANTUM FIREBALL CR13.0A, ATA DISK drive hdb: QUANTUM FIREBALLP KX27.3, ATA DISK drive Using cfq io scheduler ide0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6 on irq 14 hdc: SAMSUNG CD-ROM SCR-3231, ATAPI CD/DVD-ROM drive ide1 at 0x170-0x177,0x376 on irq 15 hda: max request size: 128KiB hda: 25429824 sectors (13020 MB) w/418KiB Cache, CHS=25228/16/63, UDMA(33) hda: hda1 hda2 hda3 hdb: max request size: 128KiB hdb: 53550304 sectors (27417 MB) w/418KiB Cache, CHS=53125/16/63, UDMA(33) hdb: hdb1 hdb2 hdc: ATAPI 32X CD-ROM drive, 512kB Cache, DMA Uniform CD-ROM driver Revision: 3.20 ide-floppy driver 0.99.newide usbcore: registered new driver hiddev usbcore: registered new driver usbhid drivers/usb/input/hid-core.c: v2.0:USB HID core driver mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice input: AT Translated Set 2 keyboard on isa0060/serio0 input: ImPS/2 Logitech Wheel Mouse on isa0060/serio1 md: md driver 0.90.0 MAX_MD_DEVS=256, MD_SB_DISKS=27 NET: Registered protocol family 2 IP: routing cache hash table of 1024 buckets, 32Kbytes TCP: Hash tables configured (established 131072 bind 37449) Initializing IPsec netlink socket NET: Registered protocol family 1 NET: Registered protocol family 17 md: Autodetecting RAID arrays. md: autorun ... md: considering hdb2 ... md: adding hdb2 ... md: adding hda3 ... md: created md0 md: bind md: bind md: running: md: personality 2 is not loaded! md :do_md_run() returned -22 md: md0 stopped. md: unbind md: export_rdev(hdb2) md: unbind md: export_rdev(hda3) md: ... autorun DONE. EXT2-fs: unable to read superblock isofs_fill_super: bread failed, dev=md0, iso_blknum=16, block=32 Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(9,0) <4>atkbd.c: Spurious ACK on isa0060/serio0. Some program, like XFree86, might be trying access hardware directly. atkbd.c: Spurious ACK on isa0060/serio0. Some program, like XFree86, might be trying access hardware directly. atkbd.c: Spurious ACK on isa0060/serio0. Some program, like XFree86, might be trying access hardware directly. atkbd.c: Spurious ACK on isa0060/serio0. Some program, like XFree86, might be trying access hardware directly. atkbd.c: Spurious ACK on isa0060/serio0. Some program, like XFree86, might be trying access hardware directly. atkbd.c: Spurious ACK on isa0060/serio0. Some program, like XFree86, might be trying access hardware directly. From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Mon Nov 22 15:42:26 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:42:26 +0100 Subject: rawhide images/pxeboot issue? In-Reply-To: <20041122152818.GA21339@redhat.com>; from jorton@redhat.com on Mon, Nov 22, 2004 at 03:28:18PM +0000 References: <20041122152818.GA21339@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041122164226.A10315@ryoko.camperquake.de> On Mon, Nov 22, 2004 at 03:28:18PM +0000, Joe Orton wrote: > I've been unable to boot into the Raw Hide > images/pxeboot/{vmlinuz,initrd.img} for a few days, is that just me or > is something borked? You are using a RAID configuration for your / file system, but the kernel can not load the RAID module. It does not seem to be in the initrd for some reason. From avibrazil at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 16:35:04 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:35:04 -0300 Subject: Fwd: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: References: <20041116194510.GB28814@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <41A0CC5C.7080306@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:38:10 -0600 (CST), Rex Dieter wrote: > > Impossible. Then all my desktop will look like s*****it. > > Not impossible. I've seen cases where AA fonts look *worse* after turning > on the byte-code interpreter. Only if you are using bad hinted fonts. The Tahoma, Verdana, and other MS fonts are excelent, and should be used without AA in sizes up to 9 or 10pt. AA for this sizes is a workaround for bad hinted fonts, and also for non byte-code interpreter freetype lib. > However, my bet is that you've possibly hit > http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/133741 Doesn't help..... and I have ooo-kde installed. Why the OOo FAQ, about switching fonts, does not work ? Regards, Avi From ulrick2 at faith4miracle.org Mon Nov 22 15:54:04 2004 From: ulrick2 at faith4miracle.org (Steven P. Ulrick) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:54:04 -0600 Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: References: <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041122081828.GB9183@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200411220954.04472.ulrick2@faith4miracle.org> On Monday 22 November 2004 08:02 am, Dan Williams wrote: > On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 07:34:35PM -0500, Dan Williams wrote: > > > What desktop environment are you using? OOo pulls the UI font from the > > > desktop environment, in the GNOME case from GTK, and in the KDE case > > > from QT. You should try changing the system-wide application font to > > > see if that helps. But if you could check a copule things: > > > > I get the same problem btw - Gnome uses a sensible font but OpenOffice > > chooses some ghastly fixed font for the widgets. In my case this is > > locale dependant and the bug was put down to font issues and limits in > > Oo's font capabilities compared with Gnome/KDE. > > Ok, this is a known bug then, the OOo KDE code needs to do fontconfig > substitution on the font that KDE returns using LANG as the constraint. > > Dan Hello, Everyone :) This weekend I had to use Gnome for a day or two, and I was struck by how much better OpenOffice 1.9m62 looked in Gnome than it does in KDE. Before I get into this, I need to say that this might not have anything to do with the problem you are having. I found the configuration setting that fixed my problem at the following location: "Tools | Options | OpenOffice.org | View" On that window was this item: "Use system font for user interface" I unchecked that box, clicked OK and OpenOffice.org 1.9m62 now looks just as good in KDE as it does in GNOME. I do apologize if this had nothing to do with your problem. Steven P. Ulrick From bpm at ec-group.com Mon Nov 22 16:44:21 2004 From: bpm at ec-group.com (Brian Millett) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:44:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: kernel versions Message-ID: <17138.12.41.112.51.1101141861.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> I am a bit confussed as to the versions of the kernel in rawhide. The only reference is from Dave in: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg00894.html "Ignore the version numbers, they're irrelevant between the streams right now." I see that in rawhide are "kernel-2.6.9-1.650_devel*" packages. The latest that I yumed was kernel-2.6.9-1.667. Any insight is appreciated. -- Brian Millett Enterprise Consulting Group "Shifts in paradigms (314) 205-9030 often cause nose bleeds." bpmATec-groupDOTcom Greg Glenn From avibrazil at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 17:57:24 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:57:24 -0300 Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts In-Reply-To: <200411220954.04472.ulrick2@faith4miracle.org> References: <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041122081828.GB9183@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200411220954.04472.ulrick2@faith4miracle.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:54:04 -0600, Steven P. Ulrick wrote: > Hello, Everyone :) > This weekend I had to use Gnome for a day or two, and I was struck by how much > better OpenOffice 1.9m62 looked in Gnome than it does in KDE. Before I get > into this, I need to say that this might not have anything to do with the > problem you are having. I found the configuration setting that fixed my > problem at the following location: "Tools | Options | OpenOffice.org | View" > On that window was this item: "Use system font for user interface" I > unchecked that box, clicked OK and OpenOffice.org 1.9m62 now looks just as > good in KDE as it does in GNOME. > > I do apologize if this had nothing to do with your problem. > > Steven P. Ulrick It seems this is a valid workaround. I'll tray later. Thank you, Avi From davej at redhat.com Mon Nov 22 18:50:46 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:50:46 -0500 Subject: kernel versions In-Reply-To: <17138.12.41.112.51.1101141861.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> References: <17138.12.41.112.51.1101141861.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> Message-ID: <20041122185046.GA22915@redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 22, 2004 at 10:44:21AM -0600, Brian Millett wrote: > I am a bit confussed as to the versions of the kernel in rawhide. The > only reference is from Dave in: > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg00894.html > > "Ignore the version numbers, they're irrelevant between the > streams right now." > > I see that in rawhide are "kernel-2.6.9-1.650_devel*" packages. The > latest that I yumed was kernel-2.6.9-1.667. Here's what happened (version numbers here are not exact, but used as example). Before FC3 'went gold', work was happening in 'devel'. When it got to revision 649, it was branched into an FC3 dir. FC3 then got more updates and fixes, and eventually ended up at rev 667. Instead of incrementally adding each change that went into FC3 one-by-one into devel/, I added them all wholesale into rev 650 of devel. So they contain pretty much the same stuff, but due to the way I did the commits, it has a lower number. I'm going to 'cheat', and bump up rawhide a few hundred revs before I do another build which should ease the confusion a little over 'which is newer'. Dave From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Mon Nov 22 19:35:55 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:35:55 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: References: <200411211056.05255.ssc@coolspot.de> <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> Message-ID: <1101152156.14662.18.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le dimanche 21 novembre 2004 ? 20:21 +0000, Mike Hearn a ?crit : > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:44:39 -0800, Stephen Pollei wrote: > > Not really, It just means that many of the kernel developers want to > > only support that which they can. Thats why they added the tainted flag. > > Binary-only modules don't benefit them and they can't help you with it. > > They could support kernels with binary only modules. Other OS vendors do > it. Other open source projects do it. They choose not to however. And other OS vendors have systems which are a major PITA to install/maintain. I'll take Linux any day thank you. The process to get drivers in the kernel at least means you don't have funnies like a resident app for every single device/card you've bought that flashes the vendor logo at you all the day, launches an hideous (but colorfoul) vendor UI to change a score of parameters no one in his right mind would care about and can not be cleanly uninstalled because the QA theme of the vendor was so mesmerised by the rainbow colortheme they utterly forgot to test it. Did I mention it usually crashes every SP or two ? Linux is driver heaven in comparison. Getting drivers in the kernel (or Xorg, foomatic, etc) is an open process that keeps the hardware vendors honest. -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Mon Nov 22 19:46:31 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:46:31 +0100 Subject: Possibly offtopic : Binary only driver In-Reply-To: <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1101034974.2820.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <200411211218.04008.ssc@coolspot.de> <20041121112229.GA27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101049065.2820.13.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101050951.2820.24.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101066280.973.47.camel@fury> <20041121202519.GP18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101152791.14662.23.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le dimanche 21 novembre 2004 ? 15:25 -0500, Alan Cox a ?crit : > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 08:21:09PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > > They won't. Why should they? Availability of source code is useful > > primarily to those who can read and write programs. That's not the > > majority of the worlds population. > > Wrong. Simple rephrase "The availability of plans of the house is useless > except to builders". Now that should be obviously garbage to anyone. Its > useful to you because it means you can pick your builder. And it's useful later if you want to cut a wall somewhere to join two rooms or just add a door. The huge majority of people that customise their Linux system do small localised changes like this thanks to the system openness. -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From bpm at ec-group.com Mon Nov 22 20:07:56 2004 From: bpm at ec-group.com (Brian Millett) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:07:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: kernel versions In-Reply-To: <20041122185046.GA22915@redhat.com> References: <17138.12.41.112.51.1101141861.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> <20041122185046.GA22915@redhat.com> Message-ID: <32040.12.41.112.51.1101154076.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2004 at 10:44:21AM -0600, Brian Millett wrote: > > I am a bit confussed as to the versions of the kernel in rawhide. > The only reference is from Dave in: > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg00894.html > > > > "Ignore the version numbers, they're irrelevant between the > > streams right now." > > > > I see that in rawhide are "kernel-2.6.9-1.650_devel*" packages. The > latest that I yumed was kernel-2.6.9-1.667. > > Here's what happened (version numbers here are not exact, but > used as example). > > Before FC3 'went gold', work was happening in 'devel'. > When it got to revision 649, it was branched into an FC3 dir. > FC3 then got more updates and fixes, and eventually ended > up at rev 667. > > Instead of incrementally adding each change that went > into FC3 one-by-one into devel/, I added them all > wholesale into rev 650 of devel. > > So they contain pretty much the same stuff, but > due to the way I did the commits, it has a lower > number. I'm going to 'cheat', and bump up > rawhide a few hundred revs before I do another build > which should ease the confusion a little over > 'which is newer'. Thank you. Nice answer. -- Brian Millett Enterprise Consulting Group "Shifts in paradigms (314) 205-9030 often cause nose bleeds." bpmATec-groupDOTcom Greg Glenn From pschobel at porchlight.ca Mon Nov 22 21:01:35 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:01:35 -0500 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> <1100718199.2463.57.camel@shiva> <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1101157295.2351.5.camel@shiva> so, any idea why i'm getting this error? [root at store-lan1-141 stateless]# ./stateless-bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot /sbin/e2label: Attempt to read block from filesystem resulted in short read while trying to open /dev/hda4 Couldn't find valid filesystem superblock. /sbin/e2label: Attempt to read block from filesystem resulted in short read while trying to open /dev/hda4 Couldn't find valid filesystem superblock. ( 0%) [Error ] there is no /dev/md4 partition partitions were created according to your sample kickstart file #Disk partitioning information part /boot --fstype ext3 --size 100 --ondisk hda part /reserve-boot --fstype ext3 --size 100 --ondisk hda part /reserve-root --fstype ext3 --size 3072 --ondisk hda part / --fstype ext3 --size 3072 --ondisk hda Peter Schobel ~ On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 03:09, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 14:03 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > > and now when i run the command, a gui interface pops up on my > > workstation for a brief second and then i get this error > > > > [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# python bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b > > /reserve-boot > > Traceback (most recent call last): > > File "bootstrap.py", line 324, in ? > > run ('aware-of-vacuity.boston.redhat.com', > > 'dc=sml-demo,dc=devel,dc=redhat,dc=com', True) > > File "bootstrap.py", line 321, in run > > gui.run() > > File "bootstrap.py", line 118, in run > > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, > > self.debug) > > TypeError: __init__() takes exactly 3 arguments (4 given) > > I think bootstrap.py is broken: > > # FIXME: supposed to pass a StatelessConfig here > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, self.debug) > > looks like this should work, though: > > self.cfg = StatelessConfig () > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.cfg, self.debug) > > However, the more recent work and testing was done on the command-line > version of the bootstrap tool. See the kickstart file I sent to you > earlier where I was doing: > > cd /usr/share/stateless > ./stateless-boostrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot > > Cheers, > Mark. > > From pschobel at porchlight.ca Mon Nov 22 21:03:44 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:03:44 -0500 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> <1100718199.2463.57.camel@shiva> <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1101157424.2351.7.camel@shiva> oops i meant /dev/hda4 partition On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 03:09, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 14:03 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > > and now when i run the command, a gui interface pops up on my > > workstation for a brief second and then i get this error > > > > [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# python bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b > > /reserve-boot > > Traceback (most recent call last): > > File "bootstrap.py", line 324, in ? > > run ('aware-of-vacuity.boston.redhat.com', > > 'dc=sml-demo,dc=devel,dc=redhat,dc=com', True) > > File "bootstrap.py", line 321, in run > > gui.run() > > File "bootstrap.py", line 118, in run > > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, > > self.debug) > > TypeError: __init__() takes exactly 3 arguments (4 given) > > I think bootstrap.py is broken: > > # FIXME: supposed to pass a StatelessConfig here > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, self.debug) > > looks like this should work, though: > > self.cfg = StatelessConfig () > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.cfg, self.debug) > > However, the more recent work and testing was done on the command-line > version of the bootstrap tool. See the kickstart file I sent to you > earlier where I was doing: > > cd /usr/share/stateless > ./stateless-boostrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot > > Cheers, > Mark. > > From adrian at lisas.de Mon Nov 22 21:20:34 2004 From: adrian at lisas.de (Adrian Reber) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:20:34 +0100 Subject: Finding the "best" mirror In-Reply-To: <20041118164349.432b2c43.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <20041118152603.GA25269@lisas.de> <20041118164349.432b2c43.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <20041122212034.GB26019@lisas.de> On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 04:43:49PM +0100, Matthias Saou wrote: > > But as I was to lazy to edit all the files in /etc/yum.repos.d/ to use > > the closest mirror I have written a small script which tries to > > determine the best mirror, removes the mirrorlist directive from the > > repo file and appends a baseurl line with the best mirror. > > Haven't looked at this yet, but how about selecting more than one mirror > (e.g. the 5 best), creating a local yum mirror file, and pointing yum's > configuration to that file:///path/to/that/mirrorlist? I really like the I have extended the script to use the best n mirrors and not only one. The number of mirrors to use can be specified on the commandline. I am, however, not using the mirrorlist directive but just appending multiple servers to the baseurl directive. http://lisas.de/~adrian/rpm/netselect-0.3-0.fdr.3.i386.rpm http://lisas.de/~adrian/rpm/netselect-0.3-0.fdr.3.src.rpm http://lisas.de/~adrian/rpm/netselect-yum-0.3-0.fdr.3.i386.rpm Gentoo use the same technique to determine the best mirror. In addition to using netselect they offer to meassure the bandwidth by downloading a 100KB file from each mirror. Adrian From denisleroy at yahoo.com Mon Nov 22 21:42:28 2004 From: denisleroy at yahoo.com (Denis Leroy) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:42:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [rant] Re: vmware and udev Message-ID: <20041122214228.64044.qmail@web60706.mail.yahoo.com> > Denis Leroy wrote: > > On a more general note, is there any sort of communications between Red > > Hat people (who have phones on their desk) and the very few companies > > that do groundbreaking linux support (Nvidia, VMWare, ...) as far as > > release schedules and support for new kernel features ? Just asking... > > To which Arjan van de Ven responded: > what you call groundbreaking linux support... I personally consider a > major problem... they are > 1) Binary only, and not helping the open source goal at large forward > 2) Borderline legal, if at all (my personal opinion is that they are not > legal, and abusing code I wrote) > 3) Lagging behind and even keeping the kernel from going forward at times. > but.. if you buy a RHEL subscription the support guys you call will be > happy to work with such vendors on joint problems. I know this is a touchy subject :-) and the binary drivers thread almost turned into a flame war. Arjan, in your response below you seem to be talking about the linux kernel while i was talking about the Fedora Core distro, and those are two different things. Seems to me, on one side we have the linux kernel developers whose interests lie on improving the kernel and adding cool features to it, and hereby rely on the strength of the open-source concept in which API or ABI changes can be propagated very quickly. This allows the kernel to move very fast (unlike other Unices that have been around longer) and to maintain a very high level of quality in its drivers. They see closed source drivers as an annoyance and hindrance, and companies that support them as being capitalistic greedy evil entities whose sole purpose is the demise of the Open-Source movement. :-) On the other hand, we have companies that try to get some leverage out of the Linux movement, sometimes in a clumsy fashion, or try to respond to their customers demands for Linux support. They are usually afraid of the GPL since it's human nature to be afraid of things one doesn't fully understand. They usually mean well, but are uneducated and completely unprepared for a world in which code is free, having no processes in place for it since it hasn't been done before. They see kernel developers as pony-tailed hippies who hate their guts and are hard to interact with, much less rely on. :-) So my question was: shouldn't Fedora stand in the middle ? Shouldn't it be the job of putting together a desktop-oriented distribution precisely to coordinate the efforts of the various "forces" out there (a hard and thankless job IMO), and reach compromises in order to provide the best possible desktop experience. This has nothing to do with kernel development, but rather in picking the right features to use in that kernel without breaking the most popular components, coordinating schedules and releases with said components, to make sure a Fedora Core release doesn't break the Nvidia drivers (one of those most popular components, whether you like it or not) or doesn't happen one week before Firefox 1.0 is released. Isn't there somebody in the Fedora community (whether he/she's a RedHat employee or not) that should be working on this ? His/her job would include calling Nvidia and saying something like this "Hi, i work on the Fedora distro. Even though our kernel developers hate you, half of our users use your drivers and we'd rather not break it for our next release. Is there anything we can do?". To which there is or isn't of course, but at least somebody's gotta try... Anyways, sorry for the long rant :-) -denis http://cdrdao.sf.net/ From kyrre at solution-forge.net Mon Nov 22 22:03:41 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:03:41 +0100 Subject: [rant] Re: vmware and udev In-Reply-To: <20041122214228.64044.qmail@web60706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041122214228.64044.qmail@web60706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1101161020.2788.23.camel@kyrre> man, 22.11.2004 kl. 22.42 skrev Denis Leroy: > > Denis Leroy wrote: > > > On a more general note, is there any sort of communications between > Red > > > Hat people (who have phones on their desk) and the very few > companies > > > that do groundbreaking linux support (Nvidia, VMWare, ...) as far > as > > > release schedules and support for new kernel features ? Just > asking... > > > > To which Arjan van de Ven responded: > > what you call groundbreaking linux support... I personally consider a > > major problem... they are > > 1) Binary only, and not helping the open source goal at large forward > > 2) Borderline legal, if at all (my personal opinion is that they are > not > > legal, and abusing code I wrote) > > 3) Lagging behind and even keeping the kernel from going forward at > times. > > but.. if you buy a RHEL subscription the support guys you call will > be > > happy to work with such vendors on joint problems. > > I know this is a touchy subject :-) and the binary drivers thread > almost turned into a flame war. Arjan, in your response below you seem > to be talking about the linux kernel while i was talking about the > Fedora Core distro, and those are two different things. > > Seems to me, on one side we have the linux kernel developers whose > interests lie on improving the kernel and adding cool features to it, > and hereby rely on the strength of the open-source concept in which > API or ABI changes can be propagated very quickly. This allows the > kernel to move very fast (unlike other Unices that have been around > longer) and to maintain a very high level of quality in its > drivers. They see closed source drivers as an annoyance and hindrance, > and companies that support them as being capitalistic greedy evil > entities whose sole purpose is the demise of the Open-Source > movement. :-) > > On the other hand, we have companies that try to get some leverage out > of the Linux movement, sometimes in a clumsy fashion, or try to > respond to their customers demands for Linux support. They are usually > afraid of the GPL since it's human nature to be afraid of things one > doesn't fully understand. They usually mean well, but are uneducated > and completely unprepared for a world in which code is free, having no > processes in place for it since it hasn't been done before. They see > kernel developers as pony-tailed hippies who hate their guts and are > hard to interact with, much less rely on. :-) > > So my question was: shouldn't Fedora stand in the middle ? Shouldn't > it be the job of putting together a desktop-oriented distribution > precisely to coordinate the efforts of the various "forces" out there > (a hard and thankless job IMO), and reach compromises in order to > provide the best possible desktop experience. This has nothing to do > with kernel development, but rather in picking the right features to > use in that kernel without breaking the most popular components, > coordinating schedules and releases with said components, to make sure > a Fedora Core release doesn't break the Nvidia drivers (one of those > most popular components, whether you like it or not) or doesn't happen > one week before Firefox 1.0 is released. Isn't there somebody in the > Fedora community (whether he/she's a RedHat employee or not) that > should be working on this ? His/her job would include calling Nvidia > and saying something like this "Hi, i work on the Fedora distro. Even > though our kernel developers hate you, half of our users use your > drivers and we'd rather not break it for our next release. Is there > anything we can do?". To which there is or isn't of course, but at > least somebody's gotta try... > > Anyways, sorry for the long rant :-) What about having a "plugin" interface for drivers - ie. some hooks in the kernel where drivers could run as userspace programs, and connect to the kernel the same ways ex. mp3-plugin hooks up with xmms? The hook might even be a kernel-module... Is something like that possible? It would keep a more or less stable API for external driver devs., maybe not as fast or good as a "real" kernel driver would be - but still a driver. The processes should maybe run in some sort of space between userspace and kernelspace... Uid -1? :P - so it would gain direct access to that HW it *needs* direct access to, an no more. It might even mean that the need to recompile a module each and every time you upgrade the kernel is no longer needed. I don't have the expertice if this is technically possible at all, or even wanted. Anyone? Kyrre Ness Sj?b?k, who feels like sticking his head into a snake's nest of properitary/free and microkernel/monolithic From Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de Mon Nov 22 22:14:54 2004 From: Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de (Bernd Bartmann) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:14:54 +0100 Subject: Missing update advisories Message-ID: <41A264DE.9090202@sohanet.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 After FC3 final has been released several updates have been pushed out to the mirrors and yet again we haven't seen any announcement for some of them. Some announcements for FC2 and even FC1 are still missing too: FC1: gaim-0.77-2.FC1 gaim-0.80-1.FC1 gaim-0.81-1.FC1 postfix-2.0.16-1 recode-3.6-12.0 FC2: devhelp-0.9.1-0.2.2 epiphany-1.2.7-0.2.0 epiphany-1.2.7-0.2.2 fam-2.6.10-9.FC2 gaim-0.77-7 gaim-0.80-1.FC2 gaim-0.81-1.FC2 gaim-1.0.2-0.FC2 gnome-session-2.6.0-4 kernel-2.6.9-1.3_FC2 libxml-1.8.17-10.1.2 man-1.5o1-6 mozilla-1.7.2-0.2.0 mozilla-1.7.3-0.2.0 nfs-utils-1.0.6-22 ruby-1.8.1-5 slang-1.4.9-12 xinitrc-3.41-1 xorg-x11-6.7.0-9 FC3: aspell-bg-0.50-7 bash-3.0-18 brltty-3.2-6 cvs-1.11.17-4 firefox-1.0-2.fc3 gamin-0.0.17-1.FC3 iptables-1.2.11-3.1.FC3 kernel-2.6.9-1.678_FC3 kernel-2.6.9-1.681_FC3 libselinux-1.19.1-3 libxml-1.8.17-12 man-1.5o1-7 man-pages-pl-0.23-4 policycoreutils-1.18.1-2 postfix-2.1.5-2.3.FC3 rhgb-0.15.1-1.FC3 shadow-utils-4.0.3-38 shadow-utils-4.0.3-40 slang-1.4.9-7 slang-1.4.9-13 udev-039-10.FC3.2 words-3.0-2 Besides this there were twice two announcements that had the same id: FEDORA-2004-378: kdelibs-3.3.1-2.2 for FC3 kdegraphics-3.3.1-2.1 for FC3 FEDORA-2004-407: libxml2-2.6.16-3 for FC3 libxml2-2.6.16-2 for FC2 Best regards. - -- Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Bernd Bartmann I.S. Security and Network Engineer SoHaNet Technology GmbH / Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee 10-11 / 10553 Berlin Fon: +49 30 214783-44 / Fax: +49 30 214783-46 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBomTekQuIaHu84cIRAqzIAJ4llolT+CH3DuZKOYDtOlZx4lAgvACcCNgA dh3N84SOm6UfumZKbMnZtZU= =qDox -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 22 23:13:09 2004 From: seanlkml at sympatico.ca (Sean) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:13:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [rant] Re: vmware and udev In-Reply-To: <20041122214228.64044.qmail@web60706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041122214228.64044.qmail@web60706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46703.10.10.10.28.1101165189.squirrel@10.10.10.28> On Mon, November 22, 2004 4:42 pm, Denis Leroy said: > So my question was: shouldn't Fedora stand in the middle ? Shouldn't > it be the job of putting together a desktop-oriented distribution > precisely to coordinate the efforts of the various "forces" out there > (a hard and thankless job IMO), and reach compromises in order to > provide the best possible desktop experience. This has nothing to do > with kernel development, but rather in picking the right features to > use in that kernel without breaking the most popular components, > coordinating schedules and releases with said components, to make sure > a Fedora Core release doesn't break the Nvidia drivers (one of those > most popular components, whether you like it or not) or doesn't happen > one week before Firefox 1.0 is released. Isn't there somebody in the > Fedora community (whether he/she's a RedHat employee or not) that Is Fedora supposed to be "desktop-oriented", should its developers be worried about working with closed-source "forces"? Here's what an Fedora webpage says, http://fedora.redhat.com/about : "The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to build a complete, general purpose operating system ****exclusively**** from open source software." [nb. **excessive** emphasis added] If there are enough people worried about one or more binary blobs, then an independent support-community should be easy to organize which wouldn't need assistance from those who are completely uninterested in such efforts. > should be working on this ? His/her job would include calling Nvidia > and saying something like this "Hi, i work on the Fedora distro. Even > though our kernel developers hate you, half of our users use your > drivers and we'd rather not break it for our next release. Is there > anything we can do?". To which there is or isn't of course, but at > least somebody's gotta try... If you volunteer your services, it would be an interesting experiment. Changes are usually telegraphed far enough in advance (through rawhide, etc) that it shouldn't be a big surprise when issues arise. Sean From pschobel at porchlight.ca Mon Nov 22 23:48:26 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:48:26 -0500 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> <1100718199.2463.57.camel@shiva> <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1101167306.2351.10.camel@shiva> /dev/hda4 is an extended partition Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/hda1 * 1 13 104391 83 Linux /dev/hda2 14 405 3148740 83 Linux /dev/hda3 406 797 3148740 83 Linux /dev/hda4 798 4866 32684242+ 5 Extended /dev/hda5 798 810 104391 83 Linux [root at store-lan1-141 ~]# df -m Filesystem 1M-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on /dev/hda2 3027 611 2263 22% / /dev/hda1 99 9 86 9% /boot none 126 0 126 0% /dev/shm /dev/hda5 99 6 89 6% /reserve-boot /dev/hda3 3027 37 2837 2% /reserve-root On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 03:09, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 14:03 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > > and now when i run the command, a gui interface pops up on my > > workstation for a brief second and then i get this error > > > > [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# python bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b > > /reserve-boot > > Traceback (most recent call last): > > File "bootstrap.py", line 324, in ? > > run ('aware-of-vacuity.boston.redhat.com', > > 'dc=sml-demo,dc=devel,dc=redhat,dc=com', True) > > File "bootstrap.py", line 321, in run > > gui.run() > > File "bootstrap.py", line 118, in run > > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, > > self.debug) > > TypeError: __init__() takes exactly 3 arguments (4 given) > > I think bootstrap.py is broken: > > # FIXME: supposed to pass a StatelessConfig here > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, self.debug) > > looks like this should work, though: > > self.cfg = StatelessConfig () > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.cfg, self.debug) > > However, the more recent work and testing was done on the command-line > version of the bootstrap tool. See the kickstart file I sent to you > earlier where I was doing: > > cd /usr/share/stateless > ./stateless-boostrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot > > Cheers, > Mark. > > From pschobel at porchlight.ca Tue Nov 23 00:43:49 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:43:49 -0500 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> <1100718199.2463.57.camel@shiva> <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1101170629.2351.13.camel@shiva> i tried changing line 304 in replicator.py to devices = ['/dev/hda1', '/dev/hda2', '/dev/hda3', '/dev/hda5'] # FIXME and now i am just getting [root at store-lan1-141 stateless]# ./stateless-bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot ( 0%) [Error ] Peter Schobel ~ On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 03:09, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 14:03 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > > and now when i run the command, a gui interface pops up on my > > workstation for a brief second and then i get this error > > > > [root at store-lan1-100 stateless]# python bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b > > /reserve-boot > > Traceback (most recent call last): > > File "bootstrap.py", line 324, in ? > > run ('aware-of-vacuity.boston.redhat.com', > > 'dc=sml-demo,dc=devel,dc=redhat,dc=com', True) > > File "bootstrap.py", line 321, in run > > gui.run() > > File "bootstrap.py", line 118, in run > > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, > > self.debug) > > TypeError: __init__() takes exactly 3 arguments (4 given) > > I think bootstrap.py is broken: > > # FIXME: supposed to pass a StatelessConfig here > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.ldap_uri, self.root_dn, self.debug) > > looks like this should work, though: > > self.cfg = StatelessConfig () > r = replicator.BootstrapReplicator (self.cfg, self.debug) > > However, the more recent work and testing was done on the command-line > version of the bootstrap tool. See the kickstart file I sent to you > earlier where I was doing: > > cd /usr/share/stateless > ./stateless-boostrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot > > Cheers, > Mark. > > -- ######################### # ## ######################### # # Peter Schobel # # # Network Administrator # # # Porchlight.ca # # # Unlimited Internet # # # www.porchlight.ca ## ######################### Test the Power Check the MTU Check the Netmask From Hugh_Caley at affymetrix.com Tue Nov 23 01:05:30 2004 From: Hugh_Caley at affymetrix.com (Hugh Caley) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:05:30 -0800 Subject: Stale NFS Filehandles and Permission Denied Message-ID: <41A28CDA.3020107@affymetrix.com> We recently migrated our main storage to a Nexsan Atabeast fronted by two PC's running Fedora Core 2. We are being plagued by "Stale NFS Filehandle" and "Permission Denied" errors on machines mounting the shares provided by the two PC's. Very sporadic, but annoying. I can't seem to find any rhyme or reason for this. Clients that have seen the problem include a machine running RH 7.3 accessing a mount in fstab, to a Fedora Core 1 client automounting a share. Many times just running 'ls' on the share a few times will suddenly make it accessable. Other times a umount/mount is required. The server machines are running Fedora Core 2 and kernel 2.6.9-1.3_FC2smp. The exported filesystems are ReiserFS on LVM2 volumes. Qlogic QLA2300 fibre adaptors connect the heads to the Nexsan Atabeast. After reading some traffic on the Linux kernel list, I added the "no_subtree_check" option to the fstab entries on the servers and re-exported. It doesn't seem to have made much of a difference. I'm not seeing error messages in /var/log/messages on either the clients nor the hosts. Anyone else seeing this? Any ideas? Otherwise the performance on the new systems beats the hell out of our old EMC Celerra; the users are rather happy with it save for this little problem. Hugh -- Hugh Caley | Unix Systems Administrator | CIS AFFYMETRIX, INC. | 6550 Vallejo St. Ste 100 | Emeryville, CA 94608 Tel: 510-428-8537 | Hugh_Caley at affymetrix.com From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 01:12:54 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:12:54 -0500 Subject: Missing update advisories In-Reply-To: <41A264DE.9090202@sohanet.de> References: <41A264DE.9090202@sohanet.de> Message-ID: <604aa7910411221712528be@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:14:54 +0100, Bernd Bartmann wrote: > After FC3 final has been released several updates have been pushed out > to the mirrors and yet again we haven't seen any announcement for some > of them. Some announcements for FC2 and even FC1 are still missing too: as this list points out, this is a continuing process problem. The only garunteed engineered solution to prevent this from happening is to make filing an annoucement text a blocking requirement for submitting an package as an update. But that will require a level of automation and red-tape that I don't think anyone inside the fenceline really wants to or has time to implement. It's my understanding that the primary reason these annoucements aren't making it out the door is that individual maintainers are simply forgetting to create an annoucement text and submit it to the annouce list. As a compromise, i would like to suggest that a autobug filer script be created that would file a bugreport against a component if an update goes unannouced for 3+ days in an effort to make the individual package maintainer aware of the problem in a timely fashion. While the summary reports to the public lists are somewhat useful.... finding a way to poke the individual package maintainers more directly seems to be needed. All the information needed should be available from the master mirror.. maybe just parsing the repository metadata would be enough. And I realize the existance of security issues greatly complicates when and how information is released. I'm trying to come up with discreet solution that makes sure annoucements don't fall through the cracks and are completely forgotten. thoughts? is a script designed to automate filing missing update announcement bugs a realistic and useful way forward? -jef From russell at coker.com.au Tue Nov 23 02:02:27 2004 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:02:27 +1100 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <4193A2C9.3040808@nc.rr.com> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> <1100192434.4163.10.camel@otto.amantes> <4193A2C9.3040808@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200411231302.31020.russell@coker.com.au> On Friday 12 November 2004 04:35, Jeff Johnson wrote: > >Sure - but if Red Hat feels it is ready to be a default, surely it can't > >be to much to ask that *all* developers respect that default and use > >it ? I can't see what issues for them would be unfixable *if* your claim > >that targeted is drop-in replacement is true. > > Look *all* is not the issue, development is. A change of the magnitude of > SELinux is not exactly easy, and even if *all* 1000 or so employees at > Red Hat ran SE Linux daily, it simply would not make a difference at all. I disagree. The more skilled people that test SE Linux the more bugs that will be sorted out. However realistically we have to acknowledge that most Red Hat employees are focussed on the area of work that's assigned to them and have little time for trying out new things. I think that the user-base of SE Linux inside Red Hat is growing steadily. > The other, and deeper, issue is writing policy for a build system which > has not been > seriously attempted yet afiak/ Your mach hardening experience could only > assist with > that policy goal (which is very different than writing "targeted" policy). I plan to do this for fedora.us. I may arrange a week with Warren next time we're in the same area to work this out. > I'm quite sure issues like booting failures have been "caught" by RH > developers, it's > a new roll of the die for each and every new policy, and sh*t happens. > Stabilizing > policy for everyone is a rather different issue than catching problems, > and I suggest > that there has been demonstrable improvements throughout FC2 and FC3 devel > cycles. Stabilising policy without getting rid of all security is the hard part! Making a policy that does not prevent you doing what you want is easy, making it also prevent bad things from happening is difficult. -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/ Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page From russell at coker.com.au Tue Nov 23 01:53:40 2004 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:53:40 +1100 Subject: first encounters with SELINUX, with some suggestions In-Reply-To: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> References: <1100002330.15772.41.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <200411231253.44339.russell@coker.com.au> On Tuesday 09 November 2004 23:12, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: > So I read some more of the howto. There's a binary called audit2allow > that could help me generate rules. So I run it, restart apache a few > times, but the binary doesn't print anything, not even with -v. Maybe > I'm using it wrong, but there's no way of finding out if I am. Here are some uses of it: dmesg|audit2allow audit2allow -d audit2allow < /var/log/messages Note that audit2allow only produces policy, you have to then include that in your policy tree and recompile. To do that install selinux-policy-targeted-sources and put a file named /etc/selinux/targeted/src/policy/domains/misc/custom.te with your policy and then run "make -C /etc/selinux/targeted/src/policy load" to compile and load the policy. > If all RH developers, who have "easy" access to the SELINUX > people at Red Hat, were to use it, they'd have basic knowledge about it. > When the next circle of developers - outside of redhat, but having links > to inside - gets hit, they do the same. And so on. > > It looks to me like the first circle is already completely broken, hence > halting the dissemination of information and increasing the annoyance > level outside of Red Hat. It won't be long before sysadmins and users > ignore the default and turn it off entirely. There is no requirement that you learn about SE Linux from Red Hat employees. You can contact the Red Hat employees who work on SE Linux just as easily as any other Red Hat employee. Send email to rcoker at redhat.com and I'll answer your questions about SE Linux and Fedora with the same priority that I would give to the same questions from a Red Hat employee. If you want a good and fast response from me the best thing to do is to post to a mailing list (such as this one) and CC me on this address. As you will notice I am a bit behind in my mailing list email, if your original message had been CC'd to me you would have had a reply a long time ago. > I understand that FC3 is relatively fresh and that not everything can be > in place from the start. > I just want to get a good picture of where SELINUX is at and how to > solve issues, so that I can try to fix stuff myself, and explain to > other people. Otherwise I'll just have to turn off SELINUX myself, and > recommend the same to others when questions are asked about it. SE Linux is in good shape technically. The documentation is lacking, all the people who know the code are very busy doing coding. That leaves a shortage of people who have the ability and time to write documentation. Things are improving however, there is quite a bit of documentation going in other places, one is Linux Journal. We should probably make a page of links to all reliable sources of information. My web site has some of the needed links. -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/ Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page From lightingisfun at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 06:22:26 2004 From: lightingisfun at gmail.com (David Corrigan) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:22:26 -0800 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121224138.GC11177@redhat.com> References: <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121162843.GB11177@redhat.com> <1101055907.2820.54.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041121224138.GC11177@redhat.com> Message-ID: <7248933a04112222225cbf79a0@mail.gmail.com> If each individual file is unfragmented then why not create a loop back device with all the necessary files for booting, copy it into memory, and mount it? As long as that one file remains unfragmented then there will be a minimal amount of drive seeking involved. David On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:41:38 -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 05:51:49PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 11:28 -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: > > > while in > > > single user mode and without concurrent activity: > > > > > > for foo in $list: > > > cp $foo $foo.new > [...] > > > We could expect filesystems to allocate the new blocks (data and possibly > > > metadata) more or less sequentially on disk. What would led the filesystem > > > code to not be sequential (most of the time assuming a single block device > > > underneath) > > > > nope this doesn't work; while each file individually will be sequential, > > they are not sequential on disk. Note: teh files already aren't > > fragmented, at least on my testsystem. > > yeah, but why does ext3 allocator doesn't allocate consecutive blocks > for such a pattern ? Directory locality ? Still wondering :-) > It must be possible one way or another to do this without going though > very complex reservation interfaces. The problem is not to 100% garantee > we will not seek at all while going though this bunch of files but > to have only a reasonable amount of seeks. Suppose there is only 10 seeks > instead of a single block that would amount only for 1 tenth of a second > delay on "normal" hardware. > > > > Daniel > > -- > Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ > veillard at redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ > http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From gauret at free.fr Tue Nov 23 07:53:51 2004 From: gauret at free.fr (Aurelien Bompard) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:53:51 +0100 Subject: Short RPM question Message-ID: Hi all When I saw that an update for slang was available, I issued an apt-get install slang, and thought that it would pull slang-devel too. It didnt: # rpm -qR slang-devel slang = 1.4.9 Shouldn't a -devel rpm require the main rpm with %{version}-%{release}, not only %{version} ? In the fedora.us bug 2225 (https://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=2225), Michael Schwendt explains that the full Requires it almost always needed. Could slang be one of those corner cases, or is it just a bug ? Thanks Aur?lien -- http://gauret.free.fr ~~~~ Jabber : gauret at amessage.info "We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about." --?Albert?Einstein From markmc at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 07:57:44 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:57:44 +0000 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1101170629.2351.13.camel@shiva> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> <1100718199.2463.57.camel@shiva> <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> <1101170629.2351.13.camel@shiva> Message-ID: <1101196665.18815.3.camel@blaa> On Mon, 2004-11-22 at 19:43 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > i tried changing line 304 in replicator.py to > > devices = ['/dev/hda1', '/dev/hda2', '/dev/hda3', '/dev/hda5'] # FIXME > > and now i am just getting > > [root at store-lan1-141 stateless]# ./stateless-bootstrap.py -r > /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot > ( 0%) [Error ] > Try changing: def debug_print(msg): pass to def debug_print(msg): print msg in replicator.py and passing --debug to stateless-bootstrap.py and see what that tells you. Cheers, Mark. From clovis at agr.unicamp.br Tue Nov 23 10:46:17 2004 From: clovis at agr.unicamp.br (Clovis Tristao) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:46:17 -0200 Subject: Yum and Up2date-Error Message-ID: <41A314F9.50906@agr.unicamp.br> Hi, I am trying to bring up to date my version of the Fedora Core 3 T1, using yum or up2date, them is appearing the following message: Error: missing dep: libdb_cxx-4.2.so for pkg openoffice.org-libs How do I do to resolve this problem? Thanks a lot, Cl?vis -- Clovis Tristao - UNICAMP/Faculdade de Engenharia Agricola Administrador de Redes - Secao de Informatica (SINFO) E-mail: mailto:clovis at agr.unicamp.br http://www.agr.unicamp.br Fone(0xx19) 37881031-37881038 ou FAX(55xx19) 37881005/37881010 From jorton at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 11:57:37 2004 From: jorton at redhat.com (Joe Orton) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:57:37 +0000 Subject: rawhide images/pxeboot issue? In-Reply-To: <20041122164226.A10315@ryoko.camperquake.de> References: <20041122152818.GA21339@redhat.com> <20041122164226.A10315@ryoko.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <20041123115737.GA26447@redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 22, 2004 at 04:42:26PM +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > On Mon, Nov 22, 2004 at 03:28:18PM +0000, Joe Orton wrote: > > > I've been unable to boot into the Raw Hide > > images/pxeboot/{vmlinuz,initrd.img} for a few days, is that just me or > > is something borked? > > You are using a RAID configuration for your / file system, but the kernel > can not load the RAID module. It does not seem to be in the initrd for > some reason. I get the same when I try and boot the Raw Hide boot.iso from CD after removing all partitions from the partition table in fdisk: but why would the kernel try to load the root fs from /dev/md0 in either scenario? It should come out of the initrd in both cases, surely? ... md: Autodetecting RAID arrays. md: autorun ... md: ... autorun DONE. EXT2-fs: unable to read superblock isofs_fill_super: bread failed, dev=md0, iso_blknum=16, block=32 Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(9,0) From strange at nsk.no-ip.org Tue Nov 23 12:12:49 2004 From: strange at nsk.no-ip.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:12:49 +0000 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041123121249.GB4285@nsk.no-ip.org> On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 04:55:47PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 10:42:45AM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 20, 2004 at 11:50:49PM +0100, Ziga Mahkovec wrote: > > > This chart includes data from iostat (sysstat package). Notice how the > > > disk is fully utilized (%util) during readahead, but the throughput > > > (rkB/s) is *really* low. This could very well be a problem with my hard > > > disk. hdparm seems fine though (and I checked the parameters before > > > running readahead). > > > > Disks are very very seek constrained. You get wonderful performance reading > > linear data. The moment you read a lot of scattered files or a file with a > > lot of segments you will get low performance - even more so on laptops than > > desktops > > yeah we saw that; sorting the list on disk sector shaved 2 seconds off... > if we want to save more we'll have to fix the on disk layout to be less > spread out. That's not going to be fun... Is it possible to get a list of the sectors read for each file, instead of only the file name? Or do you expect that, for each file read, it will be read almost entirely? Regards, Luciano Rocha -- Consciousness: that annoying time between naps. From ee21rh at surrey.ac.uk Tue Nov 23 12:09:09 2004 From: ee21rh at surrey.ac.uk (Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng)) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:09:09 -0000 Subject: Addition : Ink Level Message-ID: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> I currently have no way of checking my ink level (for a epson printer) in FC3 without compiling and installing other programs such as epsutil. Surly an enterprise class distribution such as FC3 should have some kind of ink monitor in the main distribution. Maybe it could be built into the CUPS dialog or even in the printer tools. I remember that RH9 had something in the base install of KDE to do this (in the printer setup), but I don?t want to install and load KDE just to check my ink levels. Is anything being worked on currently for this? Is it something that should be linked with HAL? Thanks for any input. Richard Hughes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From buildsys at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 12:47:14 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:47:14 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041123 changes Message-ID: <200411231247.iANClEN04404@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Removed package ash Updated Packages: abiword-1:2.2.0-2 ----------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Caolan McNamara - 1:2.2.0-2 - #abi7961# remove tempnam usages * Mon Nov 22 2004 Caolan McNamara - 1:2.2.0-1 - bump to latest major stable version - #rh140321# sanity check geometry apr-0.9.5-3 ----------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Joe Orton 0.9.5-3 - really fix apr-config --srcdir * Mon Nov 22 2004 Joe Orton 0.9.5-2 - fix apr-config --srcdir again apr-util-0.9.5-1 ---------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Joe Orton 0.9.5-1 - update to 0.9.5 booty-0.45-1 ------------ * Mon Nov 22 2004 Karsten Hopp 0.45-1 - rebuild with python-2.4 cups-1:1.1.22-2 --------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Tim Waugh 1:1.1.22-2 - Fixed cups-lpd file mode (bug #137325). - Convert all man pages to UTF-8 (bug #107118). Patch from Miloslav Trmac. * Mon Nov 08 2004 Tim Waugh - New lpd subpackage, from patch by Matthew Galgoci (bug #137325). docbook-style-xsl-1.67.0-3 -------------------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Tim Waugh 1.67.0-3 - Avoid non-ASCII in generated man pages. ethereal-0.10.7-1 ----------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Radek Vokal 0.10.7-1 - Updated to ethereal 0.10.7 gdb-6.1post-1.20040607.55 ------------------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Jeff Johnston 1.200400607.55 - Multiple ia64 backtrace fixes. Bugzilla 125157 * Thu Nov 11 2004 Elena Zannoni 1.200400607.54 - Bump up release number * Thu Nov 11 2004 Elena Zannoni 1.200400607.51 - Modify configure line to not use absolute paths. This was creating problems with makeinfo/texinfo. - Get rid of makeinfo hack. Bugzilla 135633 gimp-2:2.2-0.0.pre2.1 --------------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Nils Philippsen - version 2.2-pre2 * Thu Nov 18 2004 Nils Philippsen - obsolete fixed gimp-perl version to be able to reintroduce it at a later point - use correct dir in source URL * Wed Nov 03 2004 Nils Philippsen - version 2.2-pre1 iiimf-le-xcin-0.1.7-11.1 ------------------------ * Tue Nov 16 2004 Leon Ho - 0.1.7-11 - fixed multibyte punctuation on input styles (#138959) jpilot-0.99.7-3 --------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Ivana Varekova - fix bug #139377 - problem with x86_64 kdesdk-3.3.1-3 -------------- * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jeff Johnson 3:3.3.1-3 - rebuild against db-4.3.21. * Mon Oct 18 2004 Than Ngo 3:3.3.1-2 - rebuilt kudzu-1.1.96-1 -------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Bill Nottingham - 1.1.96-1 - replace significantly suboptimal module availability algorithm * Tue Oct 12 2004 Bill Nottingham - 1.1.95-1 - fix potential segfault on odd USB controllers (#135450) * Tue Oct 12 2004 Bill Nottingham - 1.1.94-1 - add a quick hack to avoid warning (#129181) libavc1394-0.4.1-4 ------------------ * Mon Nov 22 2004 Karsten Hopp 0.4.1-4 - remove bogus ldconfig after makeinstall mew-4.1-1 --------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Akira TAGOH - 4.1-1 - New upstream release. - improved IMAP support. - added the spam filter hook. - mew-init.el: added the proper location for stunnel. mkinitrd-4.1.19-1 ----------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Jeremy Katz - 4.1.19-1 - remove use of dietlibc for nash * Wed Nov 03 2004 Jeremy Katz - handle machines with lots of disks in /proc/partitions (#137816) * Sun Oct 24 2004 Jeremy Katz - require cpio (#136814) module-init-tools-3.1-0.pre5.4 ------------------------------ * Mon Nov 22 2004 Jeremy Katz - 3.1-0.pre5.4 - don't use dietlibc on x86 anymore openmotif-2.2.3-7 ----------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Thomas Woerner 2.2.3-7 - latest Xpm patches: CAN-2004-0914 (#134631) - new patch for tmpnam in imake (only used for build) patchutils-0.2.30-3 ------------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Tim Waugh 0.2.30-3 - Moved last fix into docbook-style-xsl. * Mon Nov 22 2004 Jindrich Novy 0.2.30-2 - fix flipdiff.1 man page (#139341) php-5.0.2-8 ----------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Joe Orton 5.0.2-8 - update for db4-4.3 (Robert Scheck, #140167) - build against mysql-devel - run tests in %check redhat-menus-3.7.1-3 -------------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 - 3.7.1-3 - Sync to upstream - #rh138282# Get redhat-evolution.desktop.in * Mon Nov 22 2004 Dan Williams 3.7-5 - #rh137520# Add "application/x-ole-storage" to Calc, Impress, and Writer desktop files, so Evolution can associate these with OOo * Tue Nov 16 2004 Dan Williams 3.7-4 - #rh137520# Add more supported mime-types to OpenOffice.org .desktop files rp-pppoe-3.5-23 --------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Than Ngo 3.5-23 - fix typo in adsl-setup #140287 rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041123 --------------------------- samba-0:3.0.9-2 --------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Jay Fenlason 3.0.9-2 - New upstream release. This obsoletes the -secret patch. Include my changetrustpw patch to make "net ads changetrustpw" stop aborting. This closes #134694 - Remove obsolete triggers for ancient samba versions. - Move /var/log/samba to the -common rpm. This closes #76628 - Remove the hack needed to get around the bad docs files in the 3.0.8 tarball. - Change the comment in winbind.init to point at the correct pidfile. This closes #76641 * Mon Nov 22 2004 Than Ngo 3.0.8-4 - fix unresolved symbols in libsmbclient which caused applications such as KDE's konqueror to fail when accessing smb:// URLs. #139894 * Thu Nov 11 2004 Jay Fenlason 3.0.8-3.1 - Rescue the install.mount.smbfs patch from Juanjo Villaplana (villapla at si.uji.es) to prevent building the srpm from trashing your installed /usr/bin/smbmount sane-backends-1.0.15-4 ---------------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Tim Waugh 1.0.15-4 - Attempt to be more useful in libusbscanner by waiting a maximum of 30 seconds. - Add a chcon call to libusbscanner (bug #140059). Based on contribution from W. Michael Petullo. selinux-policy-strict-1.19.4-3 ------------------------------ * Mon Nov 22 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-4-3 - Fix location of selinuxenabled * Mon Nov 22 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-4-2 - Add some rules to allow httpd_sys_content_t to access to httpdcontent if httpd_unified is set selinux-policy-targeted-1.19.4-3 -------------------------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-4-3 - Fix location of selinuxenabled * Mon Nov 22 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-4-2 - Add some rules to allow httpd_sys_content_t to access to httpdcontent if httpd_unified is set sox-12.17.6-1 ------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Thomas Woerner 12.17.6-1 - new version 12.17.6 star-1.5a54-1 ------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Peter Vrabec - upgrade 1.5a54-1 & rebuild * Mon Oct 25 2004 Peter Vrabec - fix dependencie (#123770) * Tue Jun 15 2004 Elliot Lee - rebuilt stunnel-4.05-4 -------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 4.05-4 - Convert man pages to UTF-8 sylpheed-1.0.0-0.1.beta3 ------------------------ * Mon Nov 22 2004 Akira TAGOH - 1.0.0-0.1.beta3 - New upstream release. - sylpheed-default-browser.patch: updated to apply cleanly. - sylpheed.1: added a simple man page. (#129387) system-config-date-1.7.12-1 --------------------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Nils Philippsen 1.7.12-1 - remove wrongly encoded character (#140318) and duplicate word from French man page tetex-2.0.2-24 -------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Jindrich Novy 2.0.2-24 - Fix man pages (bug #139341) tvtime-0.9.15-3 --------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 0.9.15-3 - Convert German man pages to UTF-8 xfce-utils-4.0.6-2 ------------------ * Mon Nov 22 2004 Than Ngo 4.0.6-2 - add session desktop file from KDE, better translations - improve xfterm4 #139183 From twaugh at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 12:54:08 2004 From: twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:54:08 +0000 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 23, 2004 at 12:09:09PM -0000, Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng) wrote: > I currently have no way of checking my ink level (for a epson > printer) in FC3 without compiling and installing other programs such > as epsutil. Surly an enterprise class distribution such as FC3 > should have some kind of ink monitor in the main distribution. See bug #120331, "RFE: Add mtink, an Epson ink cartridge monitor". The concern here is adding lots of little utilities without binding them together with a useful interface. Perhaps this is an area that eggcups could expand into -- or should it be in the tool for setting up print queues instead? Tim. */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ndbecker2 at verizon.net Tue Nov 23 12:53:03 2004 From: ndbecker2 at verizon.net (Neal D. Becker) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:53:03 -0500 Subject: gcc-3.4.3 for FC3 updates? Message-ID: Just wondering if FC3 updates will include gcc-3.4.3. From havill at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 13:02:08 2004 From: havill at redhat.com (Adrian Havill) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:02:08 -0500 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> Message-ID: <41A334D0.7020403@redhat.com> Tim Waugh wrote: > See bug #120331, "RFE: Add mtink, an Epson ink cartridge monitor". > >The concern here is adding lots of little utilities without binding >them together with a useful interface. > > Does mtink work with HP printers? Don't a lot of these printers (esp HP) have a web server built in anyway where you can check the ink level? If only HP's web interfaces were complete and allowed for inkjet head cleaning... >Perhaps this is an area that eggcups could expand into -- or should it >be in the tool for setting up print queues instead? > > From ndbecker2 at verizon.net Tue Nov 23 12:51:35 2004 From: ndbecker2 at verizon.net (Neal D. Becker) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:51:35 -0500 Subject: Couple of pointers Message-ID: http://freshmeat.net/projects/autofsng/?branch_id=54652&release_id=179712 ALso boost-1.32 released: http://boost.org From tdiehl at rogueind.com Tue Nov 23 13:25:44 2004 From: tdiehl at rogueind.com (Tom Diehl) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:25:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Short RPM question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Aurelien Bompard wrote: > Hi all > > When I saw that an update for slang was available, I issued an apt-get > install slang, and thought that it would pull slang-devel too. It didnt: > # rpm -qR slang-devel > slang = 1.4.9 You are getting confused. You answered your own question above. slang-devel requires slang, not the other way around. Think about it, the reason for breaking out things into the -devel packages is to not install the devel stuff unless you need it. *-devel is not ever required by the parent package that I am aware of. Regards, Tom From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 13:32:56 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:32:56 -0500 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa79104112305321c351f04@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:54:08 +0000, Tim Waugh wrote: > Perhaps this is an area that eggcups could expand into -- or should it > be in the tool for setting up print queues instead? how about both :-> eggcups by its very nature.. if its working correctly.. isn't always exposed to the user's interface, it hides itself if there is nothing to report. If someone wants to check ink level and eggcups is the only place where you can get to that ui for the ink level how to you force eggcups icon to appear so you can interact with it? I guess the question becomes of notification versus user request... do you want the system to notify the user of low ink level via some sort of notification? eggcups could do that or we can wait for notification bubbles do you want the user to be able to request information about the ink level at any time? eggcups is not suited for this.. because eggcups will hide itself if there is no activity, and there is no way to force the eggcups icon to unhide so you can interact with it. Some other tool will have to build support for inklevel in. Not to suggest we resurrect printman interface, but something like printman that sits in the menus and lets user interact with a list of printers and their properties at any time would make more sense. the compromise would be to allow setting an alert level when a printer is configured, and let eggcups/or a notification bubble alert you when the ink is below that pre-determined amount and not worry about letting users see the inklevel at any given moment. Maybe even allow 2 set points... a "getting low" reminder useful if someone needs to place an order for more ink and a "critically low" warning useful to tell a user to change out the cartriage asap. -jef From carwyn at carwyn.com Tue Nov 23 14:05:28 2004 From: carwyn at carwyn.com (Carwyn Edwards) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:05:28 +0000 Subject: Short RPM question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41A343A8.9080907@carwyn.com> Tom Diehl wrote: >On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Aurelien Bompard wrote: > > > >>Hi all >> >>When I saw that an update for slang was available, I issued an apt-get >>install slang, and thought that it would pull slang-devel too. It didnt: >># rpm -qR slang-devel >>slang = 1.4.9 >> >> > >You are getting confused. > > Nope, you are :-) The "I issued an apt-get install slang, and thought that it would pull slang-devel too." .. is a red herring. He already has slang _and_ slang-devel installed and expected the dep resolution on "apt-get install slang" to force an upgrade of slang-devel too. Because the dep in slang-devel is only on the version and not the release of slang it didn't force the update. The question was - should the slang-devel "Requires:" specify just a version dep or both version and release? Peronally I think you're better off with a full epoch:version-release dep between the devel->parent as quite often build time options are enough to mangle autogenerated development material. Carwyn From david at fubar.dk Tue Nov 23 15:26:29 2004 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:26:29 -0500 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101223590.6935.7.camel@davidz> On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 12:54 +0000, Tim Waugh wrote: > On Tue, Nov 23, 2004 at 12:09:09PM -0000, Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng) wrote: > > > I currently have no way of checking my ink level (for a epson > > printer) in FC3 without compiling and installing other programs such > > as epsutil. Surly an enterprise class distribution such as FC3 > > should have some kind of ink monitor in the main distribution. > > See bug #120331, "RFE: Add mtink, an Epson ink cartridge monitor". > The concern here is adding lots of little utilities without binding > them together with a useful interface. > Do you mean User Interface or Application Programmers Interface? :-) I do think that hal is the right way to expose the API since the object model representing hardware in hal is pretty much designed to export a lot of different information (see hal-device-manager). The code for polling for e.g. Epson printers, XYZ printers or whatever shouldn't be a part of the hal codebase proper as it's pretty specific to certain hardware. However there are ways to start other daemons from the hal daemon (e.g. callouts when the hal daemon is starting up). The key thing is that such software populate the same device properties on the hal device object representing the printer, and of course that said properties are well documented and generic enough to represent a wide range of different hardware. > Perhaps this is an area that eggcups could expand into -- or should it > be in the tool for setting up print queues instead? > Eggcups could be the preferred UI for e.g. the GNOME desktop, yeah. Colin can probably enlighten us here. Cheers, David From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Tue Nov 23 15:30:53 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:30:53 +0100 Subject: rawhide images/pxeboot issue? In-Reply-To: <20041123115737.GA26447@redhat.com>; from jorton@redhat.com on Tue, Nov 23, 2004 at 11:57:37AM +0000 References: <20041122152818.GA21339@redhat.com> <20041122164226.A10315@ryoko.camperquake.de> <20041123115737.GA26447@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041123163053.A22724@ryoko.camperquake.de> On Tue, Nov 23, 2004 at 11:57:37AM +0000, Joe Orton wrote: > I get the same when I try and boot the Raw Hide boot.iso from CD after > removing all partitions from the partition table in fdisk: but why would > the kernel try to load the root fs from /dev/md0 in either scenario? It > should come out of the initrd in both cases, surely? Sorry, I missed that. Yes, the logs you posted do not show an initrd at all. Do you have one? Is it mentioned in the boot loader? From walters at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 15:51:07 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:51:07 -0500 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <604aa79104112305321c351f04@mail.gmail.com> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> <604aa79104112305321c351f04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1101225067.6685.27.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 08:32 -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:54:08 +0000, Tim Waugh wrote: > > Perhaps this is an area that eggcups could expand into -- or should it > > be in the tool for setting up print queues instead? > > how about both :-> > > eggcups by its very nature.. if its working correctly.. isn't always > exposed to the user's interface, it hides itself if there is nothing > to report. If someone wants to check ink level and eggcups is the only > place where you can get to that ui for the ink level how to you force > eggcups icon to appear so you can interact with it? When do you want to know if a printer is running out of ink? I think the answer is: when you want to print to it, or if one of your jobs is printing or queued to be printing on that printer. If you're not printing, then unless you're the person maintaining the printers, you don't care. So there's two separate places ink level notification should be placed, for the two different cases above. For initial printing, ink status should go into the print dialog, just like we display the number of outstanding jobs. We could simply append "(low ink)" to the printer name, or have a separate column. Secondly, when you have print jobs active, eggcups should be monitoring the printers relevant to you. If one of those printers is running low on ink, then we want a notification bubble, so you can notify the sysadmin, or cancel your job and redirect it, or both. I don't have any immediate thoughts on a UI for the person *maintaining* the printers. Seems like that could just be a cron job or something that sends email. From dcbw at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 16:35:23 2004 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:35:23 -0500 Subject: Yum and Up2date-Error In-Reply-To: <41A314F9.50906@agr.unicamp.br> References: <41A314F9.50906@agr.unicamp.br> Message-ID: <1101227723.22901.4.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 08:46 -0200, Clovis Tristao wrote: > Hi, > > I am trying to bring up to date my version of the Fedora Core 3 T1, > using yum or up2date, them is appearing the following message: > > Error: missing dep: libdb_cxx-4.2.so for pkg openoffice.org-libs An updated OOo package is being built, but due to disk space issues on the build machines, its failed twice already :( Dan From enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de Tue Nov 23 16:36:16 2004 From: enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de (Enrico Scholz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:36:16 +0100 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> (Tim Waugh's message of "Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:54:08 +0000") References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> Message-ID: <871xekcykf.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) writes: >> I currently have no way of checking my ink level (for a epson >> printer) in FC3 without compiling and installing other programs >> such as epsutil. Surly an enterprise class distribution such as >> FC3 should have some kind of ink monitor in the main distribution. > > See bug #120331, "RFE: Add mtink, an Epson ink cartridge monitor". > The concern here is adding lots of little utilities without binding > them together with a useful interface. Aren't we having this situation already with the system-config-* and gnome-*-properties tools? Enrico From tjarls at iee.lu Tue Nov 23 16:46:28 2004 From: tjarls at iee.lu (Charles Lopes) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:46:28 +0100 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <1101225067.6685.27.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> <604aa79104112305321c351f04@mail.gmail.com> <1101225067.6685.27.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <41A36964.3060900@iee.lu> Colin Walters wrote: >I don't have any immediate thoughts on a UI for the person *maintaining* >the printers. Seems like that could just be a cron job or something >that sends email. > > IMHO system-config-printer would be a nice place to have access to this type of information, in particular on a home computer. If the computer is part of a larger park, there should already be a site wide monitoring infrastructure where to fit this information (nagios, e-mail, syslog, snmp, pager). A small command line tools that can be used in scripts would go a long way to ease integration of such information in an existing infrastructure. I noticed that many network printers send warnings about low level of ink/toner by syslog if a syslog server attribute is sent to them by DHCP and can be queried by snmp. Doing the same could be a good start. From pnasrat at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 17:05:13 2004 From: pnasrat at redhat.com (Paul Nasrat) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:05:13 -0500 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <871xekcykf.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> <871xekcykf.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> Message-ID: <1101229513.11140.22.camel@minimumble.lab.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 17:36 +0100, Enrico Scholz wrote: > twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) writes: > > >> I currently have no way of checking my ink level (for a epson > >> printer) in FC3 without compiling and installing other programs > >> such as epsutil. Surly an enterprise class distribution such as > >> FC3 should have some kind of ink monitor in the main distribution. > > > > See bug #120331, "RFE: Add mtink, an Epson ink cartridge monitor". > > The concern here is adding lots of little utilities without binding > > them together with a useful interface. > > Aren't we having this situation already with the system-config-* and > gnome-*-properties tools? True to some extent, although there is a difference between user and system settings. Paul From shiva at sewingwitch.com Tue Nov 23 17:06:33 2004 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:06:33 -0800 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <1101225067.6685.27.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.u k> <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> <604aa79104112305321c351f04@mail.gmail.com> <1101225067.6685.27.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, November 23, 2004 10:51 AM -0500 Colin Walters wrote: > When do you want to know if a printer is running out of ink? I think > the answer is: when you want to print to it, or if one of your jobs is > printing or queued to be printing on that printer. If you're not > printing, then unless you're the person maintaining the printers, you > don't care. Also, when you're ordering cartridges for several printers (not necessarily the same model or on the same machine) and need to know if you should order some for this one. From pschobel at porchlight.ca Tue Nov 23 17:33:40 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:33:40 -0500 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1101196665.18815.3.camel@blaa> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> <1100718199.2463.57.camel@shiva> <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> <1101170629.2351.13.camel@shiva> <1101196665.18815.3.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1101231220.2351.20.camel@shiva> that worked, it seems to not be getting the rsync path [root at store-lan1-141 stateless]# ./stateless-bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot relabelling /dev/hda3 to "RESERVE_ROOT" relabelling /dev/hda5 to "RESERVE_BOOT" Mounting /dev/hda3 at /tmp/tmpc4x1Vg/reserve_root (type ext3) Could not determine client snapshot information for active root partition Could not determine client snapshot information for reserve root partition Mounting /dev/hda5 at /tmp/tmpc4x1Vg/reserve_boot (type ext3) Could not determine client snapshot information for active boot partition Could not determine client snapshot information for reserve boot partition Provisioning data from server:(config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-1") Getting (config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-1") to device /dev/hda3 rsync url:"rsync://NoneNone/pinab/pinab-1/" excluding /boot rsync finished role finished ( 0%) [Error ] i used the stateless-server command to add the server to my ldap tree with the rsync path /srv/stateless/snapshots i'm assuming that the server entry in ldap should have the same name as LDAP_SERVER in /etc/sysconfig/stateless am i doing this correctly? Peter Schobel ~ On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 02:57, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-22 at 19:43 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > i tried changing line 304 in replicator.py to > > > > devices = ['/dev/hda1', '/dev/hda2', '/dev/hda3', '/dev/hda5'] # FIXME > > > > and now i am just getting > > > > [root at store-lan1-141 stateless]# ./stateless-bootstrap.py -r > > /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot > > ( 0%) [Error ] > > > > Try changing: > > def debug_print(msg): > pass > > to > > def debug_print(msg): > print msg > > in replicator.py and passing --debug to stateless-bootstrap.py and see > what that tells you. > > Cheers, > Mark. > From pschobel at porchlight.ca Tue Nov 23 19:19:54 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:19:54 -0500 Subject: stateless problems In-Reply-To: <1101196665.18815.3.camel@blaa> References: <1100542594.2460.21.camel@shiva> <1100689326.5919.24.camel@blaa> <1100718199.2463.57.camel@shiva> <1100765359.6199.3.camel@blaa> <1101170629.2351.13.camel@shiva> <1101196665.18815.3.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <1101237593.2351.30.camel@shiva> i got it to boot into a snapshot finally [root at store-lan1-141 stateless]# ./stateless-bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot relabelling /dev/hda3 to "RESERVE_ROOT" relabelling /dev/hda5 to "RESERVE_BOOT" Mounting /dev/hda3 at /tmp/tmpwBVP-y/reserve_root (type ext3) Could not determine client snapshot information for active root partition Could not determine client snapshot information for reserve root partition Mounting /dev/hda5 at /tmp/tmpwBVP-y/reserve_boot (type ext3) Could not determine client snapshot information for active boot partition Could not determine client snapshot information for reserve boot partition Provisioning data from server:(config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-1") Getting (config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-1") to device /dev/hda3 rsync url:"rsync://cms.porchlight.ca/stateless/pinab/pinab-1/" excluding /boot ########################################(100%) [Copying system image]rsync finished role finished ########################################(100%) [Copying kernel image]Getting (config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-1") to device /dev/hda5 rsync url:"rsync://cms.porchlight.ca/stateless/pinab/pinab-1/boot/" rsync finished role finished ########################################(100%) [Preparing bootloader]relabelling /dev/hda2 to "RESERVE_ROOT" relabelling /dev/hda3 to "/" relabelling /dev/hda1 to "RESERVE_BOOT" relabelling /dev/hda5 to "/boot" Unmounting /tmp/tmpwBVP-y/reserve_boot Probing devices to guess BIOS drives. This may take a long time. GNU GRUB version 0.95 (640K lower / 3072K upper memory) [ Minimal BASH-like line editing is supported. For the first word, TAB lists possible command completions. Anywhere else TAB lists the possible completions of a device/filename.] grub> root (hd0,4) Filesystem type is ext2fs, partition type 0x83 grub> install (hd0,4)/grub/stage1 d (hd0) (hd0,4)/grub/stage2 p (hd0,4)/grub/grub.conf Error 22: No such partition grub> ########################################(100%) [Copying complete ] although grub is now looking for /dev/hda4 my hacks: in replicator.py: devices = ['/dev/hda1', '/dev/hda2', '/dev/hda3', '/dev/hda5'] # FIXME and rsync_url = "rsync://cms.porchlight.ca/stateless/%s/%s/" % ( provisioning.config_name, provisioning.snapshot_name) in ks-bootstrap.cfg: cd /usr/share/stateless chmod +x stateless-bootstrap.py rm replicator.py wget http://cms.porchlight.ca/stateless/replicator.py ./stateless-bootstrap.py -r /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot Peter Schobel ~ On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 02:57, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-22 at 19:43 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > i tried changing line 304 in replicator.py to > > > > devices = ['/dev/hda1', '/dev/hda2', '/dev/hda3', '/dev/hda5'] # FIXME > > > > and now i am just getting > > > > [root at store-lan1-141 stateless]# ./stateless-bootstrap.py -r > > /reserve-root -b /reserve-boot > > ( 0%) [Error ] > > > > Try changing: > > def debug_print(msg): > pass > > to > > def debug_print(msg): > print msg > > in replicator.py and passing --debug to stateless-bootstrap.py and see > what that tells you. > > Cheers, > Mark. > -- ######################### # ## ######################### # # Peter Schobel # # # Network Administrator # # # Porchlight.ca # # # Unlimited Internet # # # www.porchlight.ca ## ######################### From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 19:35:42 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:35:42 -0500 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <1101225067.6685.27.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <20041123125408.GB3459@redhat.com> <604aa79104112305321c351f04@mail.gmail.com> <1101225067.6685.27.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <604aa791041123113556c6e0c8@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:51:07 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > When do you want to know if a printer is running out of ink? I think > the answer is: when you want to print to it, or if one of your jobs is > printing or queued to be printing on that printer. If you're not > printing, then unless you're the person maintaining the printers, you > don't care. > > I don't have any immediate thoughts on a UI for the person *maintaining* > the printers. Seems like that could just be a cron job or something > that sends email. You miss the point sort of. I think there will be situations where people(secretaries and office adminstrators) responsible for making sure printers in a department of a larger network are fed with paper and ink are going to want to make status requests about printers and not just wait to be notified by the system, when there is a problem. Personally, on a multiuser network where people share printers, I'm primarily concerned about a way to know before i submit the job whether the printer is low on ink or not. As long as I can be aware of ink level information before i choose a printer ( for applications that have modern printer support that is, gedit would be the conanical example) my specific needs as a normal user who doesn't maintain the printers will be met. -jef From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 20:17:12 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:17:12 -0200 Subject: OpenOffice.org widget fonts: THE SOLUTION In-Reply-To: References: <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041122081828.GB9183@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200411220954.04472.ulrick2@faith4miracle.org> Message-ID: I found the solution. Menu Tools -> Options -> Tree OOo -> View -> Screen Font antialiasing I set it to antialias begining from 13 pixels (about 10pt). Then I found it is using the same wonderfull excelent MS Tahoma 8pt I used to configure KDE. So it looks KDE font configurations were propagated, except my anti-aliasing settings. I'm attaching a screenshot with the dialog to let you see were the solution is, and how wonderful OOo looks now. Regards, Avi On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:57:24 -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:54:04 -0600, Steven P. Ulrick > > > wrote: > > Hello, Everyone :) > > This weekend I had to use Gnome for a day or two, and I was struck by how much > > better OpenOffice 1.9m62 looked in Gnome than it does in KDE. Before I get > > into this, I need to say that this might not have anything to do with the > > problem you are having. I found the configuration setting that fixed my > > problem at the following location: "Tools | Options | OpenOffice.org | View" > > On that window was this item: "Use system font for user interface" I > > unchecked that box, clicked OK and OpenOffice.org 1.9m62 now looks just as > > good in KDE as it does in GNOME. > > > > I do apologize if this had nothing to do with your problem. > > > > Steven P. Ulrick > > > It seems this is a valid workaround. > I'll tray later. > > Thank you, > Avi > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ooo.png Type: image/png Size: 19575 bytes Desc: not available URL: From arjanv at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 20:57:13 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:57:13 +0100 Subject: Boot poster challenge In-Reply-To: <20041123121249.GB4285@nsk.no-ip.org> References: <20041117062833.GD4845@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100693168.4493.17.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100723329.2638.39.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100741634.4716.8.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041118073646.GD23071@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1100776004.4260.42.camel@serenity.klika.si> <1100972855.2639.49.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1100991049.3990.7.camel@serenity.klika.si> <20041121154245.GA18853@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041121155547.GF27387@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041123121249.GB4285@nsk.no-ip.org> Message-ID: <1101243433.2814.28.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 12:12 +0000, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > > yeah we saw that; sorting the list on disk sector shaved 2 seconds off... > > if we want to save more we'll have to fix the on disk layout to be less > > spread out. That's not going to be fun... > > Is it possible to get a list of the sectors read for each file, instead > of only the file name? I posted a program the other day that does this for the first sector; the bmap program from http://www.zip.com.au/~akpm/linux/patches/stuff/ext3-tools.tar.gz lists all sectors in use (but in a more complex format) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mattdm at mattdm.org Tue Nov 23 21:01:42 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:01:42 -0500 Subject: suggestion: move krb5 daemons to krb5-daemons subpackage Message-ID: <20041123210142.GA29425@jadzia.bu.edu> Someone's situation on the main fedora list (they were accidentally getting kerberized ftp instead of vsftpd as they expected) reminded me of this: Currently, there are several daemon programs in the krb5-workstation subpackage which one wouldn't necessarily expect or want on a workstation. (Obviously, telnetd, ftpd, kshd, klogind, etc. And probably login.krb5 too, since we've got PAM.). In this day and age, perhaps dropping them completely (in favor of fully-encrypted protocols like ssh) is the way to go, but failing that, my suggestion is to move them to a more clearly-named subpackage. (And to one that doesn't contain important utilities like kdestroy, etc.) -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 21:45:18 2004 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:45:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: suggestion: move krb5 daemons to krb5-daemons subpackage In-Reply-To: <20041123210142.GA29425@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <20041123210142.GA29425@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Matthew Miller wrote: > Someone's situation on the main fedora list (they were accidentally getting > kerberized ftp instead of vsftpd as they expected) reminded me of this: > > > > Currently, there are several daemon programs in the krb5-workstation > subpackage which one wouldn't necessarily expect or want on a workstation. > (Obviously, telnetd, ftpd, kshd, klogind, etc. And probably login.krb5 too, > since we've got PAM.). In this day and age, perhaps dropping them completely > (in favor of fully-encrypted protocols like ssh) is the way to go kshd/klogind are fully encrypted if set up correctly. They're also a lot faster than ssh. -- Elliot From abo at kth.se Tue Nov 23 22:05:58 2004 From: abo at kth.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:05:58 +0100 Subject: suggestion: move krb5 daemons to krb5-daemons subpackage In-Reply-To: <20041123210142.GA29425@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <20041123210142.GA29425@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1101247558.3330.15.camel@tudor.e.kth.se> tis 2004-11-23 klockan 16:01 -0500 skrev Matthew Miller: > Currently, there are several daemon programs in the krb5-workstation > subpackage which one wouldn't necessarily expect or want on a workstation. > (Obviously, telnetd, ftpd, kshd, klogind, etc. And probably login.krb5 too, > since we've got PAM.). In this day and age, perhaps dropping them completely > (in favor of fully-encrypted protocols like ssh) is the way to go, but > failing that, my suggestion is to move them to a more clearly-named > subpackage. (And to one that doesn't contain important utilities like > kdestroy, etc.) Yes, go ahead and put them in a separate package, but please don't remove them. (Not that I'd care, I have nice little Heimdal RPMS anyway.) It is quite reasonable to run a kerberos telnetd och rshd on every workstation. I suppose login.krb5 could be dropped. ftpd is clearly named gssftp ("The kerberized FTP server") in system-config-services, but it comes before vsftpd in the list. :-) /abo From mattdm at mattdm.org Tue Nov 23 22:12:15 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:12:15 -0500 Subject: suggestion: move krb5 daemons to krb5-daemons subpackage In-Reply-To: References: <20041123210142.GA29425@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <20041123221215.GA32123@jadzia.bu.edu> On Tue, Nov 23, 2004 at 04:45:18PM -0500, Elliot Lee wrote: > > Currently, there are several daemon programs in the krb5-workstation > > subpackage which one wouldn't necessarily expect or want on a > > workstation. (Obviously, telnetd, ftpd, kshd, klogind, etc. And probably > > login.krb5 too, > kshd/klogind are fully encrypted if set up correctly. They're also a lot > faster than ssh. Okay; a reasonable argument for not dropping them completely. I still think they ought to be separated from krb-workstation. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From Philip.R.Schaffner at nasa.gov Tue Nov 23 22:29:32 2004 From: Philip.R.Schaffner at nasa.gov (Phil Schaffner) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:29:32 -0500 Subject: [rant] Re: vmware and udev In-Reply-To: <46703.10.10.10.28.1101165189.squirrel@10.10.10.28> References: <20041122214228.64044.qmail@web60706.mail.yahoo.com> <46703.10.10.10.28.1101165189.squirrel@10.10.10.28> Message-ID: <1101248972.4129.116.camel@wx1.larc.nasa.gov> On Mon, 2004-11-22 at 18:13 -0500, Sean wrote: > "The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to > build a complete, general purpose operating system ****exclusively**** > from open source software." [nb. **excessive** emphasis added] However, a system that works with non-open-source software is a highly desirable goal, not incompatible with the above. In fact, as far as Fedora is Red Hat's testing ground for technologies to end up in Enterprise, it would seem to be a requirement. Have been a lurker on this list (just following for self-educational purposes), as my development experience was mostly back in the dark ages of FORTRAN. Had to come out of the woodwork on this one. > If there are enough people worried about one or more binary blobs, then an > independent support-community should be easy to organize which > wouldn't > need assistance from those who are completely uninterested in such > efforts. >From the number of VMware-related messages on various Fedora lists, a substantial subset of Fedora people seem to be interested in it as a useful tool or as a test environment. I'd count myself as one of those. Phil From jorton at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 22:33:43 2004 From: jorton at redhat.com (Joe Orton) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:33:43 +0000 Subject: rawhide images/pxeboot issue? In-Reply-To: <20041123163053.A22724@ryoko.camperquake.de> References: <20041122152818.GA21339@redhat.com> <20041122164226.A10315@ryoko.camperquake.de> <20041123115737.GA26447@redhat.com> <20041123163053.A22724@ryoko.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <20041123223343.GA9719@redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 23, 2004 at 04:30:53PM +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > On Tue, Nov 23, 2004 at 11:57:37AM +0000, Joe Orton wrote: > > > I get the same when I try and boot the Raw Hide boot.iso from CD after > > removing all partitions from the partition table in fdisk: but why would > > the kernel try to load the root fs from /dev/md0 in either scenario? It > > should come out of the initrd in both cases, surely? > > Sorry, I missed that. Yes, the logs you posted do not show an initrd > at all. Do you have one? Is it mentioned in the boot loader? The Raw Hide boot.iso seems to contain an initrd/initrd.img, which is a valid gzipped cpio archive. I don't know how to get any more information out of the isolinux boot stuff... joe From enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de Tue Nov 23 22:36:15 2004 From: enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de (Enrico Scholz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:36:15 +0100 Subject: suggestion: move krb5 daemons to krb5-daemons subpackage In-Reply-To: (Elliot Lee's message of "Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:45:18 -0500 (EST)") References: <20041123210142.GA29425@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <87wtwcb3c0.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) writes: > kshd/klogind are fully encrypted if set up correctly. They're also a > lot faster than ssh. Setting up krb5 correctly without virtualization technology (e.g. vserver) or much money for extra hardware and powersupply is nearly impossible... Else, you will have only trouble with hostname vs. DNS name conflicts and/or multi-homed hosts. The shipped KRB5 implementation misses features like replication or support for renaming of principals; and the rest of the system misses krb5 support completely (cups, w3m, svn), nobody cares about it (e.g. no SPNEGO support in firefox because missing buildrequires) or its implementation is not well-thought (e.g. login for local accounts fails when network is down). ssh is much easier to use and provides neat features like encryption of X11 connections. Enrico From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 23 22:42:44 2004 From: seanlkml at sympatico.ca (Sean) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:42:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [rant] Re: vmware and udev In-Reply-To: <1101248972.4129.116.camel@wx1.larc.nasa.gov> References: <20041122214228.64044.qmail@web60706.mail.yahoo.com> <46703.10.10.10.28.1101165189.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101248972.4129.116.camel@wx1.larc.nasa.gov> Message-ID: <50348.10.10.10.28.1101249764.squirrel@10.10.10.28> On Tue, November 23, 2004 5:29 pm, Phil Schaffner said: > However, a system that works with non-open-source software is a highly > desirable goal, not incompatible with the above. In fact, as far as > Fedora is Red Hat's testing ground for technologies to end up in > Enterprise, it would seem to be a requirement. [...] > From the number of VMware-related messages on various Fedora lists, a > substantial subset of Fedora people seem to be interested in it as a > useful tool or as a test environment. I'd count myself as one of those. Hi Phil, There are only so many hours in a day for the primary developers of Fedora Core. If there are many people who are concerned about VMware issues then there is an opportunity to get together and address them. The point is that the constant demands and rants that a solution fall from above aren't as fruitful as banding together and adding value. If the people truly concerned with the issue can't provide workable solutions, how are the few developers at RedHat supposed to do better? Already issues are outlined in release notes etc. Cheers, Sean From dwmw2 at infradead.org Tue Nov 23 22:55:43 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:55:43 +0000 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1101250543.8191.8221.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 12:09 +0000, Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng) wrote: > I currently have no way of checking my > ink level (for a epson printer) in FC3 > without compiling and installing other > programs such as epsutil. I'd settle for my father's laptop even being able to view the print queue on the remote CUPS server. And maybe being able to delete his own jobs rather than phoning me to ask me to ssh in and do it for him. :) -- dwmw2 From abo at kth.se Tue Nov 23 22:57:44 2004 From: abo at kth.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:57:44 +0100 Subject: suggestion: move krb5 daemons to krb5-daemons subpackage In-Reply-To: <87wtwcb3c0.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> References: <20041123210142.GA29425@jadzia.bu.edu> <87wtwcb3c0.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> Message-ID: <1101250664.3330.26.camel@tudor.e.kth.se> tis 2004-11-23 klockan 23:36 +0100 skrev Enrico Scholz: > sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) writes: > > > kshd/klogind are fully encrypted if set up correctly. They're also a > > lot faster than ssh. > > Setting up krb5 correctly without virtualization technology (e.g. vserver) > or much money for extra hardware and powersupply is nearly impossible... > Else, you will have only trouble with hostname vs. DNS name conflicts > and/or multi-homed hosts. Arguing that Kerberos is useless/unusable/broken/whatever is futile. It's not. It also cannot be replaced with SSH. (Extending SSH to support Kerberos is a good idea though.) > The shipped KRB5 implementation misses features like replication or support > for renaming of principals; and the rest of the system misses krb5 support > completely (cups, w3m, svn), nobody cares about it (e.g. no SPNEGO support > in firefox because missing buildrequires) or its implementation is not > well-thought (e.g. login for local accounts fails when network is down). Yes, this should be fixable. I'm mostly interested in Firefox and CUPS. Are there bug reports already or should they be filed? > ssh is much easier to use and provides neat features like encryption of > X11 connections. Heimdal has secure X11 forwarding. /abo From walters at redhat.com Tue Nov 23 23:08:45 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:08:45 -0500 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <1101250543.8191.8221.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <1101250543.8191.8221.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101251325.30008.14.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 22:55 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 12:09 +0000, Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng) > wrote: > > I currently have no way of checking my > > ink level (for a epson printer) in FC3 > > without compiling and installing other > > programs such as epsutil. > > I'd settle for my father's laptop even being able to view the print > queue on the remote CUPS server. An icon should appear in the notification area when you print and monitor the status of your print jobs. Does this not work for you? > And maybe being able to delete his own > jobs rather than phoning me to ask me to ssh in and do it for him. You should be able to cancel them by clicking on the icon. From tdiehl at rogueind.com Tue Nov 23 23:25:41 2004 From: tdiehl at rogueind.com (Tom Diehl) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:25:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Short RPM question In-Reply-To: <41A343A8.9080907@carwyn.com> References: <41A343A8.9080907@carwyn.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Carwyn Edwards wrote: > Tom Diehl wrote: > > >On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Aurelien Bompard wrote: > > > > > > > >>Hi all > >> > >>When I saw that an update for slang was available, I issued an apt-get > >>install slang, and thought that it would pull slang-devel too. It didnt: > >># rpm -qR slang-devel > >>slang = 1.4.9 > >> > >> > > > >You are getting confused. > > > > > > Nope, you are :-) The OK, I see. :-) > > "I issued an apt-get install slang, and thought that it would pull > slang-devel too." > > .. is a red herring. He already has slang _and_ slang-devel installed > and expected the dep resolution on "apt-get install slang" to force an > upgrade of slang-devel too. Because the dep in slang-devel is only on > the version and not the release of slang it didn't force the update. Sounds like a packaging problem to me. > The question was - should the slang-devel "Requires:" specify just a > version dep or both version and release? Peronally I think you're better > off with a full epoch:version-release dep between the devel->parent as > quite often build time options are enough to mangle autogenerated > development material. I think in this case you are correct, although I thought (obviously incorrectly) that the automagic dep generator in rpmbuild would have taken care of such a case. Tom From nbargnesi at den-4.com Wed Nov 24 01:09:28 2004 From: nbargnesi at den-4.com (Nick Bargnesi) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:09:28 -0500 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <1101250543.8191.8221.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <1101250543.8191.8221.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101258568.3660.0.camel@eliwood> Hopefully somebody didn't already state this. But doesn't cups advertise printing on port 631? You should be able to use http or https to access it? On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 22:55 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 12:09 +0000, Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng) > wrote: > > I currently have no way of checking my > > ink level (for a epson printer) in FC3 > > without compiling and installing other > > programs such as epsutil. > > I'd settle for my father's laptop even being able to view the print > queue on the remote CUPS server. And maybe being able to delete his own > jobs rather than phoning me to ask me to ssh in and do it for him. > :) > > -- > dwmw2 > From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 24 01:41:29 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:41:29 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101260488.2351.39.camel@shiva> is there any documention that explains exactly what changes the stateless-client and readonly-root packages make to the client? Peter Schobel ~ From enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de Wed Nov 24 01:44:11 2004 From: enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de (Enrico Scholz) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:44:11 +0100 Subject: suggestion: move krb5 daemons to krb5-daemons subpackage In-Reply-To: <1101250664.3330.26.camel@tudor.e.kth.se> (Alexander =?iso-8859-1?q?Bostr=F6m's?= message of "Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:57:44 +0100") References: <20041123210142.GA29425@jadzia.bu.edu> <87wtwcb3c0.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> <1101250664.3330.26.camel@tudor.e.kth.se> Message-ID: <87sm70aums.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> abo at kth.se (Alexander Bostr?m) writes: >> > kshd/klogind are fully encrypted if set up correctly... >> >> Setting up krb5 correctly without virtualization technology (e.g. vserver) >> or much money for extra hardware and powersupply is nearly impossible... >> Else, you will have only trouble with hostname vs. DNS name conflicts >> and/or multi-homed hosts. > > Arguing that Kerberos is useless/unusable/broken/whatever is futile. > It's not. It is impossible in the typical FC environment (2-3 hosts in a network, where one machine has 'www', 'ldap', 'imap', 'kerberos', 'db' alias-names). You will never get GSSAPI authentication with MIT kerberos running there. > It also cannot be replaced with SSH. I never said this... Just, that the FC kerberos can not be set up correctly within a vanilla FC environment. >> The shipped KRB5 implementation misses features like replication or support >> for renaming of principals; and the rest of the system misses krb5 support >> completely (cups, w3m, svn), nobody cares about it (e.g. no SPNEGO support >> in firefox because missing buildrequires) or its implementation is not >> well-thought (e.g. login for local accounts fails when network is down). > > Yes, this should be fixable. I'm mostly interested in Firefox and CUPS. > Are there bug reports already or should they be filed? afair, I filed the missing BR for firefox years ago already, it was fixed then but seems to be broken again. cups is an upstream issue; there are from time to time requests on the cups-devel list, but no results yet. For now, I replace KRB with SSH, and print with 'ssh trusted-host lpr'. >> ssh is much easier to use and provides neat features like encryption >> of X11 connections. > > Heimdal has secure X11 forwarding. Yes, Heimdal seems to be far superior to MIT Kerberos. It supports replication and has better AFS support (although I do not know if this is still an issue with recent, krb5-based OpenAFS). It is a puzzle why FC ships MIT Kerberos only... But I saw the man-page of BSD's implementation of kerberos... Support for TCP transport and tunneling over HTTP proxies... wow... I want to have this also... Enrico From cknowlton at science.edu Wed Nov 24 01:48:30 2004 From: cknowlton at science.edu (Carlos Knowlton) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:48:30 -0600 Subject: stateless linux In-Reply-To: <1101260488.2351.39.camel@shiva> References: <1101260488.2351.39.camel@shiva> Message-ID: <41A3E86E.9060401@science.edu> I "second" this request. I'd like to understand this too. (Though I suppose if I get really desperate, I can take the source rpm apart, and analyze the source and spec files, but that's not much fun! =) Carlos Peter Schobel wrote: >is there any documention that explains exactly what changes the >stateless-client and readonly-root packages make to the client? > >Peter Schobel >~ > > > > From perbj at stanford.edu Wed Nov 24 02:29:44 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:29:44 -0800 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <1101258568.3660.0.camel@eliwood> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <1101250543.8191.8221.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1101258568.3660.0.camel@eliwood> Message-ID: <1101263384.3547.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 20:09 -0500, Nick Bargnesi wrote: > Hopefully somebody didn't already state this. But doesn't cups > advertise printing on port 631? You should be able to use http or https > to access it? Yes. However, even when you have poked the hole in the firewall that allows you to print to the printer, cupsd doesn't let you do interesting things like kill your print jobs in the default setting. Also, you need to know exactly the URL to type, in the default config you can't access http://:631/ remotely, only http://:631/printers/ . While this might be quite reasonable from a security point of view, it's not exactly an interface I'd like to try to explain to a beginner. /Per -- Per Bjornsson Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University From ggw at wolves.homeip.net Wed Nov 24 02:33:29 2004 From: ggw at wolves.homeip.net (G.Wolfe Woodbury) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:33:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: rawhide images/pxeboot issue? References: <20041122152818.GA21339@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:28:18 +0000, Joe shaped electrons to write: > > --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Content-Disposition: inline > > I've been unable to boot into the Raw Hide > images/pxeboot/{vmlinuz,initrd.img} for a few days, is that just me or > is something borked? > > 2.6.9-1.650_devel fails like: > > EXT2-fs: unable to read superblock > isofs_fill_super: bread failed, dev=md0, iso_blknum=16, block=32 > Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on > unknown-block(9,0) > > (then loops forever saying: > ><4>atkbd.c: Spurious ACK on isa0060/serio0. Some program, like > XFree86, might be trying access hardware directly. > atkbd.c: Spurious ACK on isa0060/serio0. Some program, like XFree86, > ight be trying access hardware directly. > > but I guess that's something different) > For What It is Worth (FWIW) I'm seeing the same problem on my machine here. There are no "autodetect raid" partitions present, so there should be no attempt to read an md0 device in the first place! My machine is an AMD K6/2 @ 400MHz with 320MB on a Asus P5A-B. This is with the boot.iso of 2004-11-23 05:46 from the hiwaay.net mirror. Someone should bugzilla this, but I don't know how to capture the boot messages when it fails this way. -- G.Wolfe Woodbury `- -' RHCT U The Line Eater is a boojum! From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 24 02:56:48 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:56:48 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101265008.2351.62.camel@shiva> why does my /etc/modprobe.conf keep disappearing? Peter Schobel ~ From jmizell at whileloop.com Wed Nov 24 03:57:44 2004 From: jmizell at whileloop.com (John Mizell) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:57:44 -0600 Subject: hwconf layout Message-ID: <1101268664.6369.3.camel@supernova> Does anyone have a hwconf layout document. I need to know all the possible classes, buses, and any entries that may fall below them. This information will be used to setup the database scheme of a project I am working on. example: class: OTHER bus: PCI detached: 0 driver: emu10k1-gp desc: "Creative Labs SB Live! MIDI/Game Port" vendorId: 1102 deviceId: 7002 subVendorId: 1102 subDeviceId: 0020 pciType: 1 pcidom: 0 pcibus: 2 pcidev: 0 pcifn: 1 From notting at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 02:58:07 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:58:07 -0500 Subject: hwconf layout In-Reply-To: <1101268664.6369.3.camel@supernova> References: <1101268664.6369.3.camel@supernova> Message-ID: <20041124025807.GA5626@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> John Mizell (jmizell at whileloop.com) said: > Does anyone have a hwconf layout document. I need to know all the > possible classes, buses, and any entries that may fall below them. This > information will be used to setup the database scheme of a project I am > working on. There's some docs in the kudzu package. Bill From jmizell at whileloop.com Wed Nov 24 04:05:41 2004 From: jmizell at whileloop.com (John Mizell) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:05:41 -0600 Subject: hwconf layout In-Reply-To: <20041124025807.GA5626@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1101268664.6369.3.camel@supernova> <20041124025807.GA5626@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101269141.6369.4.camel@supernova> Ok I will look there. Thank you Bill. John Mizell On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 21:58 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > John Mizell (jmizell at whileloop.com) said: > > Does anyone have a hwconf layout document. I need to know all the > > possible classes, buses, and any entries that may fall below them. This > > information will be used to setup the database scheme of a project I am > > working on. > > There's some docs in the kudzu package. > > Bill > From sam-williams at insightbb.com Wed Nov 24 02:29:11 2004 From: sam-williams at insightbb.com (Sam Williams) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:29:11 -0600 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? Message-ID: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> Why doesn't FC3 have the /proc/config.gz option turned on by default? It adds such a small amount of size to the kernel and it removes the need to search and try and locate the config files used to build a given FC3 kernel release? -- Sam Williams samurai at acm.org +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ +"It is easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of computers + + by the sense of accomplishment you get from getting them to work at + + all." + + - Douglas Adams + +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From wtogami at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 03:25:04 2004 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:25:04 -1000 Subject: fedora.us and Extras FC3 Status Message-ID: <41A3FF10.7060005@redhat.com> Enough people were confused about the situation, so I am making this interim anouncement. download.fedora.us for FC3 will only replicate from download.fedora.redhat.com for convenience of apt users. yum users should use official download.fedora.redhat.com mirrors which are twice as plentiful. Currently the RPMS.extras directory is empty, because redhat's infrastructure for the Extras relaunch is not done yet. We're *really* close now with build servers in the rack and CVS in configuration and heavy testing. Lots of tweaking and labor still pending. Don't ask for ETA. If we have to answer questions, it will slow us down further. Extras when built will be simultaneously available for i386 and x86_64 (both supported FC3 archs) and distributed in download.fedora.redhat.com. fedora.us will automatically replicate from those directories for apt users. Details about CVS, contribution legal forms, governance, and development process & policies will be revealed when this relaunch happens. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From ad+lists at uni-x.org Wed Nov 24 03:33:42 2004 From: ad+lists at uni-x.org (Alexander Dalloz) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 04:33:42 +0100 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> Message-ID: <1101267222.6829.628.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Am Mi, den 24.11.2004 schrieb Sam Williams um 3:29: > Why doesn't FC3 have the /proc/config.gz option turned on by default? It > adds such a small amount of size to the kernel and it removes the need > to search and try and locate the config files used to build a given FC3 > kernel release? > Sam Williams samurai at acm.org The kernel config is to be found under /boot/. This is the case since FC1. Alexander -- Alexander Dalloz | Enger, Germany | new address - new key: 0xB366A773 legal statement: http://www.uni-x.org/legal.html Fedora GNU/Linux Core 2 (Tettnang) on Athlon kernel 2.6.9-1.6_FC2smp Serendipity 04:33:25 up 3 days, 23:20, load average: 0.58, 0.74, 0.86 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From notting at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 05:38:13 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:38:13 -0500 Subject: kmodule does not look into /lib/modules/`uname -r`/extra In-Reply-To: <1097319288.3275.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1097319288.3275.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041124053813.GA11639@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Matias F?liciano (feliciano.matias at free.fr) said: > I have a proprietary drivers that install modules > into /lib/modules/`unmae -r`/extra . > For me it's the right place. > > But kmodule don't look into extra directory. Fixed in initscripts-7.98-1, FWIW. Bill From sam-williams at insightbb.com Wed Nov 24 06:13:44 2004 From: sam-williams at insightbb.com (Sam Williams) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:13:44 -0600 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <1101267222.6829.628.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101267222.6829.628.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Message-ID: <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 04:33 +0100, Alexander Dalloz wrote: > Am Mi, den 24.11.2004 schrieb Sam Williams um 3:29: > > > Why doesn't FC3 have the /proc/config.gz option turned on by default? > > The kernel config is to be found under /boot/. This is the case since > FC1. Right, but what happens if you accidentally delete some of the config files? Why is it a problem to check the /proc/config.gz option when the kernel is built so the information can be extracted at any time from the running kernel? -- Sam Williams samurai at acm.org +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ +"It is easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of computers + + by the sense of accomplishment you get from getting them to work at + + all." + + - Douglas Adams + +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From jeremy.rosengren at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 07:03:25 2004 From: jeremy.rosengren at gmail.com (Jeremy Rosengren) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:03:25 -0600 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101267222.6829.628.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> Message-ID: If they're that important to you, I'd imagine you'd find ways to make backup copies of them to prevent complete loss in the event of an accidental deletion. Otherwise, you can always get at them by reinstalling the kernel RPM. -- jeremy On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:13:44 -0600, Sam Williams wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 04:33 +0100, Alexander Dalloz wrote: > > Am Mi, den 24.11.2004 schrieb Sam Williams um 3:29: > > > > > Why doesn't FC3 have the /proc/config.gz option turned on by default? > > > > The kernel config is to be found under /boot/. This is the case since > > FC1. > Right, but what happens if you accidentally delete some of the config files? > Why is it a problem to check the /proc/config.gz option when the kernel > is built so the information can be extracted at any time from the running kernel? > > -- > > > Sam Williams samurai at acm.org > +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > +"It is easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of computers + > + by the sense of accomplishment you get from getting them to work at + > + all." + > + - Douglas Adams + > +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From miyauchk at pisces.livedoor.com Wed Nov 24 07:27:56 2004 From: miyauchk at pisces.livedoor.com (miyauchk at pisces.livedoor.com) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:27:56 +0900 Subject: Fail to install in graphic mode into Mebius PC Message-ID: <20041124162756.02451352@pisces.livedoor.com> Hello, This is merely a report of install failure, but, it successed using Fedora Core 2. Graphic installing of Fedora Core 3 fails since there up small screen without buttons in beginning to install. It causes in PC-GP1-C3E, however, I could do it using Fedora Core 2. This seems to be regression. I've successed using Text install mode, but, I can report this phenomenon more exactly for improving Fedora Core 3. If members have no interest about this type of failures, ignore this mail, please. Thanks, From dwmw2 at infradead.org Wed Nov 24 07:28:54 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:28:54 +0000 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <1101251325.30008.14.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <1101250543.8191.8221.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1101251325.30008.14.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1101281334.21273.385.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 18:08 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 22:55 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > > On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 12:09 +0000, Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng) > > wrote: > > > I currently have no way of checking my > > > ink level (for a epson printer) in FC3 > > > without compiling and installing other > > > programs such as epsutil. > > > > I'd settle for my father's laptop even being able to view the print > > queue on the remote CUPS server. > > An icon should appear in the notification area when you print and > monitor the status of your print jobs. Does this not work for you? On _remote_ CUPS queues? I haven't had that working. Even 'lpq' doesn't show me the jobs once they've been sent to the server. I'm almost to the point where I'm going to throw out cups and install ppr for him. That can also handle feedback from printers, so tell you about postscript errors, tell you precisely how many pages are actually sitting on top of the printer instead of telling you your job is done when it's still actually printing, etc. -- dwmw2 From giallu at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 08:21:07 2004 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:21:07 +0100 Subject: fedora.us and Extras FC3 Status In-Reply-To: <41A3FF10.7060005@redhat.com> References: <41A3FF10.7060005@redhat.com> Message-ID: Thanks for clearing this out. Anyway, does this means we have to wait for the Extras relaunch before making any new submission to the fedura.us bugzilla?? Cheers From arjanv at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 08:30:01 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:30:01 +0100 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> Message-ID: <1101285001.2811.8.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 20:29 -0600, Sam Williams wrote: > Why doesn't FC3 have the /proc/config.gz option turned on by default? > It > adds such a small amount of size to the kernel and it removes the need > to search and try and locate the config files used to build a given FC3 > kernel release? all distros put them in /boot/config-`uname -r`. And... why do you need to config ? Bloating the kernel for something that's on the fs already sounds like a bad idea to me. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From warren at togami.com Wed Nov 24 08:38:59 2004 From: warren at togami.com (Warren Togami) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:38:59 -1000 Subject: fedora.us and Extras FC3 Status In-Reply-To: References: <41A3FF10.7060005@redhat.com> Message-ID: <41A448A3.5050200@togami.com> Gianluca Sforna wrote: > Thanks for clearing this out. > Anyway, does this means we have to wait for the Extras relaunch before > making any new submission to the fedura.us bugzilla?? > > Cheers > Not necessarily, any work done there will be imported to the trees after launch, so it certainly wont hurt to fix and approve more packages in the old fedora.us infrastructure. Warren From Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net Wed Nov 24 08:59:18 2004 From: Nicolas.Mailhot at laPoste.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:59:18 +0100 Subject: [rant] Re: vmware and udev In-Reply-To: <1101248972.4129.116.camel@wx1.larc.nasa.gov> References: <20041122214228.64044.qmail@web60706.mail.yahoo.com> <46703.10.10.10.28.1101165189.squirrel@10.10.10.28> <1101248972.4129.116.camel@wx1.larc.nasa.gov> Message-ID: <1101286758.13075.8.camel@ulysse.olympe.o2t> Le mardi 23 novembre 2004 ? 17:29 -0500, Phil Schaffner a ?crit : > On Mon, 2004-11-22 at 18:13 -0500, Sean wrote: > > If there are enough people worried about one or more binary blobs, > then an > > independent support-community should be easy to organize which > > wouldn't > > need assistance from those who are completely uninterested in such > > efforts. > > >From the number of VMware-related messages on various Fedora lists, a > substantial subset of Fedora people seem to be interested in it as a > useful tool or as a test environment. I'd count myself as one of those. Then let them set up their own community. I am interested in Java on FC & RHEL. I understand large parts of Java code will never end up in FC due to dubious SUN licensing decisions. I've helped set up a separate project (JPackage.org) to add a closed Java layer to FC. Today as free Java improves large parts of the project find their way in FC proper. See ? No need to harass RedHat people all year round. If you don't like FC rules *and* have no wish to spent some time fixing your problems, FC is not for you. -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From abo at kth.se Wed Nov 24 10:38:55 2004 From: abo at kth.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:38:55 +0100 Subject: suggestion: move krb5 daemons to krb5-daemons subpackage In-Reply-To: <87sm70aums.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> References: <20041123210142.GA29425@jadzia.bu.edu> <87wtwcb3c0.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> <1101250664.3330.26.camel@tudor.e.kth.se> <87sm70aums.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> Message-ID: <1101292734.17794.31.camel@dhcp31230.admin.kth.se> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 02:44, Enrico Scholz wrote: > It is impossible in the typical FC environment (2-3 hosts in a > network, where one machine has 'www', 'ldap', 'imap', 'kerberos', > 'db' alias-names). You will never get GSSAPI authentication with > MIT kerberos running there. I put "search ." in /etc/resolv.conf and can "telnet " just fine. Don't know about MITKRB though. However, Kerberos is mostly useful for large installations. While basing one of those on FC might not be a good idea, a single FC host should still fit in there just as well as a RHEL host. > I never said this... Ok, then. Sorry. > Just, that the FC kerberos can not be set up > correctly within a vanilla FC environment. I doubt this... > Yes, Heimdal seems to be far superior to MIT Kerberos. It supports > replication and has better AFS support (although I do not know if this > is still an issue with recent, krb5-based OpenAFS). Nalin's new pam_krb5 minikafs should support krb5 with both OpenAFS 1.3 and Arla. It replaces the krb4-only krbafs RPM, which is based on code that is shared between KTH-KRB (krb4) and Heimdal. (Yes, enabling krb5 in krbafs should only be a matter of using the right #defines, but I don't think anything uses krbafs anymore.) > It is a puzzle why FC ships MIT Kerberos only... I might get around to submitting my RPMs when Extras opens. Still, RH has people in Boston, near MIT. I don't know if that matters. > But I saw the man-page of BSD's implementation of kerberos... Support > for TCP transport and tunneling over HTTP proxies... wow... I want to > have this also... I'm just glad I've never needed HTTP tunneling. :-) /abo From alan at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 11:24:35 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:24:35 -0500 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101267222.6829.628.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> Message-ID: <20041124112435.GB20012@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 24, 2004 at 12:13:44AM -0600, Sam Williams wrote: > > The kernel config is to be found under /boot/. This is the case since > > FC1. > Right, but what happens if you accidentally delete some of the config files? What happens if you reformat your disk, or an asteroid hits the earth ? > Why is it a problem to check the /proc/config.gz option when the kernel > is built so the information can be extracted at any time from the running kernel? Why waste space on data already in the .srpm ? From ad+lists at uni-x.org Wed Nov 24 11:30:47 2004 From: ad+lists at uni-x.org (Alexander Dalloz) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:30:47 +0100 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101267222.6829.628.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> Message-ID: <1101295847.6829.662.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Am Mi, den 24.11.2004 schrieb Jeremy Rosengren um 8:03: > If they're that important to you, I'd imagine you'd find ways to make > backup copies of them to prevent complete loss in the event of an > accidental deletion. Otherwise, you can always get at them by > reinstalling the kernel RPM. > > -- jeremy You don't need to reinstall the kernel rpm2cpio kernel-version.arch.rpm | cpio -ivd config-versionnumber will extract only the config file (not sure whether full path needed for cpio; can be tested with `cpio -t'). Alexander -- Alexander Dalloz | Enger, Germany | new address - new key: 0xB366A773 legal statement: http://www.uni-x.org/legal.html Fedora GNU/Linux Core 2 (Tettnang) on Athlon kernel 2.6.9-1.6_FC2smp Serendipity 12:27:59 up 4 days, 7:15, load average: 0.11, 0.32, 0.23 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From symbiont at berlios.de Wed Nov 24 12:32:52 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:32:52 +0800 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <20041124112435.GB20012@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> <20041124112435.GB20012@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200411242032.52243.symbiont@berlios.de> On Wednesday 24 November 2004 19:24, Alan Cox wrote: > What happens if you reformat your disk, or an asteroid hits the earth > ? Redhat must indemnify. Especially the asteroid part. I mean, ALL proprietary operating systems do. I don't think anyone will adopt Linux until this is so. -- -jeff From buildsys at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 12:55:59 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:55:59 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041124 changes Message-ID: <200411241255.iAOCtxn32323@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: Canna-3.7p3-9 ------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 3.7p3-9 - Convert man pages to UTF-8 - Don't use Yen symbol instead of backspace in RkGetDicList man page - Fix build failure when redeclaring glibc functions Xaw3d-1.5-25 ------------ * Tue Nov 23 2004 Than Ngo 1.5-25 - rebuilt * Tue Nov 23 2004 Than Ngo 1.5-24 - add patch to fix build problem with xorg-x11, #140475 anaconda-10.2.0.4-1 ------------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Jeremy Katz - 10.2.0.4-1 - Update python version in urllib hack - /init in initramfs instead of /linuxrc - Improved ppc console detection (nasrat, #134397) - Better handling of going back when out of space (#133773) - Better handling of LVM failures (#134263) - Set a default when boot loader to upgrade is indeterminate (#139603) - No more diet on i386 bogl-0:0.1.18-5 --------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Jeremy Katz - 0:0.1.18-5 - don't build against dietlibc anymore on x86 desktop-printing-0.17-5 ----------------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Colin Walters 0.17-5 - Actually apply eggcups-use-printer-uri.patch foomatic-3.0.2-7 ---------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Tim Waugh 3.0.2-7 - Applied some foomatic-rip fixes from CVS. * Thu Nov 18 2004 Tim Waugh - Add autodetect information for HP Color LaserJet 4550 (bug #139799). gdb-6.1post-1.20040607.57 ------------------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Andrew Cagney 1.200400607.57 - Backport i386 prolog parser - better backtraces out of semop(). - Add option --readnever to suppress the reading of symbolic debug information. - Add script gstack.sh, installed as gstack. Bugzilla 136584, 137121 - Add missing files gdb.pie/attach2.c, gdb.pie/break1.c and gdb.pie/Makefile.in along with testsuite/configure stuff for pie. * Tue Nov 23 2004 Andrew Cagney 1.200400607.57 - Backport i386 prolog parser - better backtraces out of semop(). - Add option --readnever to suppress the reading of symbolic debug information. - Add script gstack.sh, installed as gstack. Bugzilla 136584, 137121 * Mon Nov 22 2004 Jeff Johnston 1.200400607.56 - Bump up release number. hpijs-1.7.1-1 ------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Tim Waugh 1.7.1-1 - 1.7.1 initscripts-7.98-1 ------------------ * Tue Nov 23 2004 Bill Nottingham 7.98-1 - various kmodule speedups - rc.d/init.d/netfs: don't mount GFS (#140281) - fix various minilogd bogosities (#106338) * Mon Nov 15 2004 Karsten Hopp 7.97-1 - configure CTC protocol if CTCPROT is set (#133088) * Mon Nov 15 2004 Bill Nottingham - fix check_link_down to still check negotiation if link is listed as "up" on entering (#110164, ) kdebase-6:3.3.1-10 ------------------ * Tue Nov 23 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-10 - add patch to fix kfind hang on search #137582 kudzu-1.1.99-1 -------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Bill Nottingham - 1.1.99-1 - speed up pci probing * Tue Nov 23 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.1.98-1 - fix my undiet-ifying * Mon Nov 22 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.1.97-1 - don't use dietlibc on x86 anymore lvm2-2.00.26-1 -------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Alasdair Kergon - 2.00.26-1 - Several installation-related fixes & man page updates. m2crypto-0.13-1 --------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Karsten Hopp 0.13-1 - update, remove now obsolete patches * Mon Nov 22 2004 Karsten Hopp 0.09-7 - changed pythonver from 2.3 to 2.4 man-pages-ko-1:1.48-15 ---------------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 1:1.48-15 - Recode also man.1x to UTF-8 mrtg-2.10.15-3 -------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 2.10.15-3 - Convert man pages to UTF-8 mysql-4.1.7-4 ------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-4 - Turn off old_passwords in default /etc/my.cnf file, for better compatibility with mysql 3.x clients (per suggestion from Joe Orton). * Fri Oct 29 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-3 - Handle ldconfig more cleanly (put a file in /etc/ld.so.conf.d/). * Thu Oct 28 2004 Tom Lane 4.1.7-2 - rebuild in devel branch openoffice.org-1.1.2-12.7 ------------------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Dan Williams - 1.1.2-12 - #rh129719# (partial) Incorporate updated Gujarati translation, Add ta_IN translation - Rebuild to pick up new db4 in FC4 - Link to our .desktop files rather than copying them, so that we can immediately pick up changes rather than having to rebuild pam-0.78-1 ---------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Tomas Mraz 0.78-1 - update to Linux-PAM-0.78 - #140451 parse passwd entries correctly and test for failure - #137802 allow using pam_console for authentication pciutils-2.1.99.test8-4 ----------------------- * Mon Nov 22 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.1.99.test8-4 - don't use dietlibc on x86 anymore postfix-2:2.1.5-4.1 ------------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Thomas Woerner 2:2.1.5-4.1 - removed double quotes from postalias call, second fix for #138354 prelink-0.3.3-1 --------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Jakub Jelinek 0.3.3-1 - if layout code needs to re-prelink some library, make sure all libraries that depend on it are re-prelinked too (#140081) - add several more checks before deciding it is ok to prelink a binary (even if another bug like #140081 was in, these checks should hopefully catch it and refuse to (re-)prelink the binary) - added new PRELINK_NONRPM_CHECK_INTERVAL variable to /etc/prelink, defaulting to 7 days. Prelink nightly job will not do anything if that interval has not elapsed since last prelinking and and the rpm database has not been modified since that prelinking. This is useful if you rely on rpm/up2date/yum/apt-rpm for library and binary updates. If you combine it with other means (installs from source, tarballs etc.), you probably want to set PRELINK_NONRPM_CHECK_INTERVAL=0. - update prelink man page (#126468) rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041124 --------------------------- sane-backends-1.0.15-5 ---------------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Tim Waugh 1.0.15-5 - libusbscanner: Create /dev/usb if it doesn't exist after 30s. selinux-policy-strict-1.19.4-4 ------------------------------ * Tue Nov 23 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-4-4 - Add proc_net for unconfined_t selinux-policy-targeted-1.19.4-4 -------------------------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-4-4 - Add proc_net for unconfined_t setup-2.5.39-1 -------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Bill Nottingham 2.5.39-1 - ghost lastlog (#139539) swig-1.3.23-1 ------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Karsten Hopp 1.3.23-1 - update - new pylib patch - remove destdir patch, swig.m4 is no longer included - remove ldconfig patch, swig now uses *-config to find out linker options system-config-boot-0.2.8-1 -------------------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Harald Hoyer - 0.2.8-1 - s/gtk.mainquit/gtk.main_quit/g system-config-display-1.0.24-1 ------------------------------ * Mon Nov 15 2004 Paul Nasrat 1.0.24-1 - Dual Head patch for testing thanks to Marc Andre Morissette (#136916) system-config-kickstart-2.5.16-1 -------------------------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Chris Lumens - 2.5.16-1 - Fix display in indic locale (#138310) and (#138601) - Monitor order (#127477) - Translation of RAID message (#127687) - Unencrypted root passwords (#134678) - Broken nfs line parsing (#134681) system-config-samba-1.2.22-1 ---------------------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Nils Philippsen - 1.2.22-1 - add missing options (#137756) system-logviewer-0.9.12-0.1 --------------------------- * Mon Nov 08 2004 Paul Nasrat 0.9.12-0.1 - utf-8 everwhere fixes bug # 136874 xchat-1:2.4.1-1 --------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Christopher Aillon 1:2.4.1-1 - Update to 2.4.1 xmms-1:1.2.10-10 ---------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Colin Walters 1:1.2.10-10 - Add xmms-alsa-backport.patch (bug 140565, John Haxby) xorg-x11-6.8.1-17 ----------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Kristian H??gsberg - 6.8.1-17 - Add libI810XvMC back on PPC filelists. - Move xorg-x11-6.8.1-battle-libc-wrapper.patch into fc4_build section. * Tue Nov 23 2004 Kristian H??gsberg - 6.8.1-16 - Add xorg-x11-6.8.1-battle-libc-wrapper.patch to work around build error that pops up when system headers #define printf. * Mon Nov 22 2004 Kristian H??gsberg 6.8.1-15 - Added xorg-x11-6.8.1-ati-radeon-7000-smp-lockup.patch to fix the hard lockup happening on SMP boxes with Radeon 7000 cards (#138108). From sam-williams at insightbb.com Wed Nov 24 13:48:45 2004 From: sam-williams at insightbb.com (Sam Williams) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:48:45 -0600 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <1101295847.6829.662.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101267222.6829.628.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> <1101295847.6829.662.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Message-ID: <1101304125.3447.107.camel@zurg> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 12:30 +0100, Alexander Dalloz wrote: > Am Mi, den 24.11.2004 schrieb Jeremy Rosengren um 8:03: > > > If they're that important to you, I'd imagine you'd find ways to make > > backup copies of them to prevent complete loss in the event of an > > accidental deletion. Otherwise, you can always get at them by > > reinstalling the kernel RPM. > > > > -- jeremy > > You don't need to reinstall the kernel > > rpm2cpio kernel-version.arch.rpm | cpio -ivd config-versionnumber > > will extract only the config file (not sure whether full path needed for > cpio; can be tested with `cpio -t'). > > Alexander I know the typical Redhatish answer is to use the rpm system. Apparently, no one has grasped the significance of my suggestion. It is amazing the amount of resistance over the simple idea of clicking one button during the actual kernel build and seeing the kernel increase in size a few kilobytes in order to provide an additional user/developer convenience. My initial question was intended to stimulate serious consideration, which it apparently has not. Enabling the /proc/config.gz option is incredibly useful in many Fortune 500 developer groups, but since we have these myriad workarounds it should probably be removed as a kernel config option. Thanks for the dialog. -- Sam Williams samurai at acm.org ********************************************************************** Welcome to Rivendell Mr. Anderson....... From jakub at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 13:59:07 2004 From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:59:07 -0500 Subject: gcc-3.4.3 for FC3 updates? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041124135907.GF10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 23, 2004 at 07:53:03AM -0500, Neal D. Becker wrote: > Just wondering if FC3 updates will include gcc-3.4.3. Eventually maybe yes. But can you explain why exactly you need it? GCC included in FC3 is: gcc version 3.4.2 20041017 (Red Hat 3.4.2-6.fc3) (i.e. gcc-3_4-rhl-branch snapshot that includes gcc-3_4-branch up to 20041017 plus lots of local changes). GCC 3.4.3 was released 20041104, but gcc-3_4-branch was in deep freeze at that time, so only a few changes were comitted during that time and some of them are not relevant to i386/x86_64, or are in gcc-3.4.2-6.fc3 already. There were more changes on gcc-3_4-branch since GCC 3.4.3 was released than between 20041017 and 3.4.3 release. Jakub From arjanv at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 14:07:37 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:07:37 +0100 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <1101304125.3447.107.camel@zurg> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101267222.6829.628.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> <1101295847.6829.662.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1101304125.3447.107.camel@zurg> Message-ID: <1101305256.2811.16.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 07:48 -0600, Sam Williams wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 12:30 +0100, Alexander Dalloz wrote: > consideration, which it apparently has not. Enabling > the /proc/config.gz option is incredibly useful in many Fortune 500 > developer groups, but since we have these myriad workarounds it should > probably be removed as a kernel config option. Thanks for the dialog. eh you still haven't shown what value it adds over the file *already* shipped as /boot/config-`uname -r`. Do you *really* care that much about /boot vs /proc ???? In other words, what is the added value to add these several kb to all users' kernel? Without showing what the value is, how can you expect anyone to make the tradeoff in your favor ? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jorton at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 14:16:11 2004 From: jorton at redhat.com (Joe Orton) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:16:11 +0000 Subject: MySQL 4.x status In-Reply-To: <20041108172409.GA25552@redhat.com> References: <20041108172409.GA25552@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041124141610.GA30582@redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 08, 2004 at 05:24:09PM +0000, Joe Orton wrote: > As some noticed, MySQL 4.1.7 is now in Raw Hide. The FLOSS exception is > as yet not acceptable to our legal folks (that work is ongoing) so the > LGPL-licensed 3.x client libraries and headers are still being included > and any applications under GPL-incompatible licenses are being adjusted > to use them. Further to this, issues with the FLOSS exception have now been resolved so e.g. php-5.0.2-8 is now finally linked against the MySQL 4.1 client library. Regards, joe From jss at ast.cam.ac.uk Wed Nov 24 15:00:57 2004 From: jss at ast.cam.ac.uk (Jeremy Sanders) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:00:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fedora Extras on x86_64 Message-ID: Hi - I'm running FC2 on a new Athlon-64 system (x86_64 installation). Looking at http://www.linuxtx.org/amd64faq.html it suggests I can get fedora extras from http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/fedorax86_64/fedora.us/2/x86_64/ . However, these are quite old compared to the i386 fedora extras. There aren't any x86_64 binaries at http://download.fedora.us/fedora/fedora/2/i386/RPMS.stable/ So I could o Use the old ones at duke.edu o Start recompiling SRPMS from the fedora.us o Use the 32-bit apps, installing the appropriate 32-bit libraries Is there a more recent fedora extras repository? Is there an automated way I could generate x86_64 packages from the SRPMS? Thanks Jeremy -- Jeremy Sanders http://www-xray.ast.cam.ac.uk/~jss/ X-Ray Group, Institute of Astronomy, University of Cambridge, UK. Public Key Server PGP Key ID: E1AAE053 From fedora at leemhuis.info Wed Nov 24 15:07:54 2004 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:07:54 +0100 Subject: Fedora Extras on x86_64 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1101308874.3407.25.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> Am Mittwoch, den 24.11.2004, 15:00 +0000 schrieb Jeremy Sanders: > Hi - > > I'm running FC2 on a new Athlon-64 system (x86_64 installation). > > Looking at http://www.linuxtx.org/amd64faq.html it suggests I can get > fedora extras from > http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/fedorax86_64/fedora.us/2/x86_64/ . > However, these are quite old compared to the i386 fedora extras. > There aren't any x86_64 binaries at > http://download.fedora.us/fedora/fedora/2/i386/RPMS.stable/ > > So I could > o Use the old ones at duke.edu Should work in most cases. > o Start recompiling SRPMS from the fedora.us > o Use the 32-bit apps, installing the appropriate 32-bit libraries Sometimes I do this. But is easiest is to wait some days/weeks: -------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht -------- Von: Warren Togami Antwort an: Development discussions related to Fedora Core An: Development discussions related to Fedora Core Betreff: fedora.us and Extras FC3 Status Datum: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:25:04 -1000 Enough people were confused about the situation, so I am making this interim anouncement. download.fedora.us for FC3 will only replicate from download.fedora.redhat.com for convenience of apt users. yum users should use official download.fedora.redhat.com mirrors which are twice as plentiful. Currently the RPMS.extras directory is empty, because redhat's infrastructure for the Extras relaunch is not done yet. We're *really* close now with build servers in the rack and CVS in configuration and heavy testing. Lots of tweaking and labor still pending. Don't ask for ETA. If we have to answer questions, it will slow us down further. Extras when built will be simultaneously available for i386 and x86_64 (both supported FC3 archs) and distributed in download.fedora.redhat.com. fedora.us will automatically replicate from those directories for apt users. Details about CVS, contribution legal forms, governance, and development process & policies will be revealed when this relaunch happens. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com ------------------------------------------- -- Thorsten Leemhuis From loony at loonybin.org Wed Nov 24 15:28:17 2004 From: loony at loonybin.org (Peter Arremann) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:28:17 -0500 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> Message-ID: <200411241028.17591.loony@loonybin.org> On Wednesday 24 November 2004 02:03, Jeremy Rosengren wrote: > If they're that important to you, I'd imagine you'd find ways to make > backup copies of them to prevent complete loss in the event of an > accidental deletion. Otherwise, you can always get at them by > reinstalling the kernel RPM. I can only guess on what the original intend of this mail was - but how does the config get into /boot if you roll your own kernel? if the support for config.gz is on, you're guaranteed to find the config of the currently running kernel in /proc/config.gz, no matterr if you run a stock or your own kernel, no matter how many kernels you have installed, ... I can see the benefit - especially since I'm maintaining a environment with a couple hundret linux boxes in various configurations. Peter. From guhvies at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 15:37:51 2004 From: guhvies at gmail.com (ne...) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:37:51 -0500 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <200411241028.17591.loony@loonybin.org> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> <200411241028.17591.loony@loonybin.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:28:17 -0500, Peter Arremann wrote: > I can only guess on what the original intend of this mail was - but how does > the config get into /boot if you roll your own kernel? You could send a patch upstream that does this when 'make install' is run. N.Emile... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Certified: 75% bastard, 42% of which is tard. http://www.thespark.com/bastardtest From paul at frields.com Wed Nov 24 15:40:53 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:40:53 -0500 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <200411241028.17591.loony@loonybin.org> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> <200411241028.17591.loony@loonybin.org> Message-ID: <1101310853.12230.3.camel@berlin.east.gov> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 10:28 -0500, Peter Arremann wrote: > I can only guess on what the original intend of this mail was - but how does > the config get into /boot if you roll your own kernel? if the support for > config.gz is on, you're guaranteed to find the config of the currently > running kernel in /proc/config.gz, no matterr if you run a stock or your own > kernel, no matter how many kernels you have installed, ... > > I can see the benefit - especially since I'm maintaining a environment with a > couple hundret linux boxes in various configurations. >From what I can see in the specfile, the .config used is always stored at /boot/config- as part of the kernel RPM building process. From arjanv at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 15:41:24 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:41:24 +0100 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <200411241028.17591.loony@loonybin.org> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> <200411241028.17591.loony@loonybin.org> Message-ID: <1101310884.2811.21.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> > I can only guess on what the original intend of this mail was - but how does > the config get into /boot if you roll your own kernel? make install will do that. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nbargnesi at den-4.com Wed Nov 24 15:11:39 2004 From: nbargnesi at den-4.com (Nick Bargnesi) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:11:39 -0500 Subject: Fedora Extras on x86_64 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1101309099.4980.4.camel@eliwood> Jeremy, I've been running x86_64 exclusively for a while now. I find the only thing I need to build from source is the kdemultimedia package, everything else _I_ need is available by Matthias at http://www.freshrpms.net - scripts could be written to automatically generate x86_64 pacakges from source rpms but I wouldn't want to write the dependency handling stuff. Example, use the atd to download a bunch of packages via ftp. When done cd into the directory and do a for x in *.src.rpm do rpmbuild --rebuild $x done Regards, Nick On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 15:00 +0000, Jeremy Sanders wrote: > Hi - > > I'm running FC2 on a new Athlon-64 system (x86_64 installation). > > Looking at http://www.linuxtx.org/amd64faq.html it suggests I can get > fedora extras from > http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/fedorax86_64/fedora.us/2/x86_64/ . > However, these are quite old compared to the i386 fedora extras. > There aren't any x86_64 binaries at > http://download.fedora.us/fedora/fedora/2/i386/RPMS.stable/ > > So I could > o Use the old ones at duke.edu > o Start recompiling SRPMS from the fedora.us > o Use the 32-bit apps, installing the appropriate 32-bit libraries > > Is there a more recent fedora extras repository? Is there an automated way > I could generate x86_64 packages from the SRPMS? > > Thanks > > Jeremy > > -- > Jeremy Sanders http://www-xray.ast.cam.ac.uk/~jss/ > X-Ray Group, Institute of Astronomy, University of Cambridge, UK. > Public Key Server PGP Key ID: E1AAE053 > From gauret at free.fr Wed Nov 24 15:59:36 2004 From: gauret at free.fr (Aurelien Bompard) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:59:36 +0100 Subject: Short RPM question References: <41A343A8.9080907@carwyn.com> Message-ID: Carwyn Edwards wrote: > He already has slang and slang-devel installed > and expected the dep resolution on "apt-get install slang" to force an > upgrade of slang-devel too. Exactly. Sorry if I was unclear. I'll just fill a bug then. Thanks Aur?lien -- http://gauret.free.fr ~~~~ Jabber : gauret at amessage.info Recursion: (n.) See "Recursion". From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 24 16:33:38 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:33:38 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101314018.2351.68.camel@shiva> how exactly does this fs work? how is it used? sunrpc 3027 863 2011 31% /var/lib/nfs/rpc_pipefs [root at pinab ~]# ls /var/lib/nfs/rpc_pipefs lockd mount nfs portmap statd Peter Schobel ~ From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 24 16:51:59 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:51:59 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101315118.2351.71.camel@shiva> is this right? shouldn't the configuration be pinab and the snapshot be pinab-4 and the protocol be rsync? [root at pinab ~]# stateless-status Clients: 00:04:75:FB:A6:E5 Configuration: pinab-4 Snapshot: rsync Protocol: pinab Peter Schobel ~ From n3npq at nc.rr.com Wed Nov 24 17:33:58 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:33:58 -0500 Subject: Anyone know of a tasteful LGPL HTML parser in C? Message-ID: <41A4C606.7090505@nc.rr.com> I'd like to attempt to support rpm -qp http://download.fedora.redhat.com/.../*.rpm within rpm by applying fnmatch(3) against parsed HTML hrefs. So I'm questing existing HTML parser imp[ementations before hacking up something myself. The constraints on my rpm problem/implementation space are: a) must be LGPL b) must be in C. c) must be reasonably small and reliable. d) should work on a significant variety of HTML dialects without problem. wget-1.9.1/src/html-parse.c satisifes all but a), sigh. Any other suggestions? 73 de Jeff From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 24 17:38:15 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:38:15 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101317895.2351.75.camel@shiva> it seems that my /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0 file seems to inexplicably disappear sometimes as well and then networking does not come up in the case of the /etc/modprobe.conf file, i end up with a blank file in the case of the /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0 file, it vanishes completely Peter Schobel ~ From cmadams at hiwaay.net Wed Nov 24 17:38:06 2004 From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:38:06 -0600 Subject: /proc/config.gz support on? Why not? In-Reply-To: <200411241028.17591.loony@loonybin.org> References: <1101263352.3447.33.camel@zurg> <1101276824.3447.40.camel@zurg> <200411241028.17591.loony@loonybin.org> Message-ID: <20041124173806.GB1086144@hiwaay.net> Once upon a time, Peter Arremann said: > I can only guess on what the original intend of this mail was - but how does > the config get into /boot if you roll your own kernel? if the support for > config.gz is on, you're guaranteed to find the config of the currently > running kernel in /proc/config.gz, no matterr if you run a stock or your own > kernel, no matter how many kernels you have installed, ... If you roll your own kernel, you are free to turn on any options you want. For the FC kernels that are packaged in RPM, there is no need to include the same information multiple times, especially when one of them takes up RAM on a running system (all the time, used or not). Actually though, the FC kernel RPMs do include the config in two places: /boot/config-`uname -r` /lib/modules/`uname -r`/build/.config There is no point in a third copy that uses RAM all the time. -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. From walters at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 17:50:35 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:50:35 -0500 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <1101281334.21273.385.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <1101250543.8191.8221.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1101251325.30008.14.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1101281334.21273.385.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> Message-ID: <1101318635.30763.9.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 07:28 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 18:08 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > > On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 22:55 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > > > On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 12:09 +0000, Hughes R Mr (UG - Electronic Eng) > > > wrote: > > > > I currently have no way of checking my > > > > ink level (for a epson printer) in FC3 > > > > without compiling and installing other > > > > programs such as epsutil. > > > > > > I'd settle for my father's laptop even being able to view the print > > > queue on the remote CUPS server. > > > > An icon should appear in the notification area when you print and > > monitor the status of your print jobs. Does this not work for you? > > On _remote_ CUPS queues? Yes. > I haven't had that working. Even 'lpq' doesn't > show me the jobs once they've been sent to the server. Right; AFAIK it's never worked in CUPS for queuing from a local CUPS server to remote printers, because of the lack of monitoring in IPP. Here's a sort of explanation: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-June/msg00392.html eggcups should work though; it has a hack for it. From perbj at stanford.edu Wed Nov 24 18:04:17 2004 From: perbj at stanford.edu (Per Bjornsson) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:04:17 -0800 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <1101318635.30763.9.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <1101250543.8191.8221.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1101251325.30008.14.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1101281334.21273.385.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> <1101318635.30763.9.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1101319458.3435.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 12:50 -0500, Colin Walters wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 07:28 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > > I haven't had that working. Even 'lpq' doesn't > > show me the jobs once they've been sent to the server. > > Right; AFAIK it's never worked in CUPS for queuing from a local CUPS > server to remote printers, because of the lack of monitoring in IPP. > Here's a sort of explanation: > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-June/msg00392.html > > eggcups should work though; it has a hack for it. Does the remote CUPS server need to be configured in any special way for this "hack" to work? When printing for my FC3 notebook to a printer connected to my still-on-FC2 server, at least some of the time (maybe always actually) the print jobs simply seem to never disappear. Not even when I try to cancel them. I'm pretty sure that I have never successfully cancelled a print job after it has been spooled to the remote queue, but perhaps that is beyond the scope of the "hack"? /Per -- Per Bjornsson Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University From daryll.strauss at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 18:11:10 2004 From: daryll.strauss at gmail.com (Daryll Strauss) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:11:10 -0800 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <1101319458.3435.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <1101250543.8191.8221.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1101251325.30008.14.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1101281334.21273.385.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> <1101318635.30763.9.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1101319458.3435.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <55668b8c04112410112d22aa6@mail.gmail.com> Come to think of it, I get the same behavior. I can submit a print job and it works, but the print notifier says the job is "sending" forever. I can't cancel the job either. - |Daryll From walters at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 18:16:32 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:16:32 -0500 Subject: Addition : Ink Level In-Reply-To: <1101319458.3435.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <9C8E8DB5201EDC439187B9902BB35BF60CB610@EVS-EC1-NODE3.surrey.ac.uk> <1101250543.8191.8221.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1101251325.30008.14.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1101281334.21273.385.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> <1101318635.30763.9.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1101319458.3435.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101320192.30763.15.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 10:04 -0800, Per Bjornsson wrote: > Does the remote CUPS server need to be configured in any special way for > this "hack" to work? In desktop-printing < 0.17-5, yes, you needed to allow POST to /. In desktop-printing-0.17-5, it has been changed to work with our default CUPS configuration. Can you try that version? > When printing for my FC3 notebook to a printer > connected to my still-on-FC2 server, at least some of the time (maybe > always actually) the print jobs simply seem to never disappear. Not even > when I try to cancel them. I'm pretty sure that I have never > successfully cancelled a print job after it has been spooled to the > remote queue, but perhaps that is beyond the scope of the "hack"? I did get a bug report about that, I'll have a look. From veillard at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 18:22:49 2004 From: veillard at redhat.com (Daniel Veillard) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:22:49 -0500 Subject: Anyone know of a tasteful LGPL HTML parser in C? In-Reply-To: <41A4C606.7090505@nc.rr.com> References: <41A4C606.7090505@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041124182249.GE11717@redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 24, 2004 at 12:33:58PM -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > I'd like to attempt to support > rpm -qp http://download.fedora.redhat.com/.../*.rpm > within rpm by applying fnmatch(3) against parsed HTML hrefs. > > So I'm questing existing HTML parser imp[ementations before hacking up > something myself. libxml2 HTML parser > The constraints on my rpm problem/implementation space are: > a) must be LGPL MIT > b) must be in C. yes > c) must be reasonably small and reliable. if you link against the shared lib and use demand paging it's not too big, otherwise it won't fit > d) should work on a significant variety of HTML dialects without problem. people have been using it to build commercial grade Web indexing software Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ veillard at redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From kyrre at solution-forge.net Wed Nov 24 18:26:50 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:26:50 +0100 Subject: Anyone know of a tasteful LGPL HTML parser in C? In-Reply-To: <20041124182249.GE11717@redhat.com> References: <41A4C606.7090505@nc.rr.com> <20041124182249.GE11717@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101320810.6798.2.camel@kyrre> ons, 24.11.2004 kl. 19.22 skrev Daniel Veillard: > On Wed, Nov 24, 2004 at 12:33:58PM -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > > I'd like to attempt to support > > rpm -qp http://download.fedora.redhat.com/.../*.rpm > > within rpm by applying fnmatch(3) against parsed HTML hrefs. > > > > So I'm questing existing HTML parser imp[ementations before hacking up > > something myself. > > libxml2 HTML parser > > > The constraints on my rpm problem/implementation space are: > > a) must be LGPL > > MIT > > > b) must be in C. > > yes > > > c) must be reasonably small and reliable. > > if you link against the shared lib and use demand paging it's not too > big, otherwise it won't fit > > > d) should work on a significant variety of HTML dialects without problem. > > people have been using it to build commercial grade Web indexing software > > Daniel Aren't KHTML LGPL? I know Apple based their Safari browser on it. From rdieter at math.unl.edu Wed Nov 24 18:40:54 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:40:54 -0600 Subject: Anyone know of a tasteful LGPL HTML parser in C? In-Reply-To: <1101320810.6798.2.camel@kyrre> References: <41A4C606.7090505@nc.rr.com> <20041124182249.GE11717@redhat.com> <1101320810.6798.2.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <41A4D5B6.5080306@math.unl.edu> Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > Aren't KHTML LGPL? I know Apple based their Safari browser on it. KHTML is in c++, not C. And it's pretty big (bigger than what Jeff is looking for I'd guess). -- Rex From Nate at acsmagnum.com Wed Nov 24 18:48:31 2004 From: Nate at acsmagnum.com (Nate Bradley) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:48:31 -0600 Subject: missing posts Message-ID: Why are my posts not showing up in fedora-list. I have a question for the list. From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 24 19:46:26 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:46:26 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101325585.2351.79.camel@shiva> when i run /etc/cron.hourly/stateless-replicator on the stateless client, it seems to rsync the snapshot and change the disk labels every time shouldn't it be checking the ldap tree to see if the snapshot that is running is current and then if it is, do nothing? Peter Schobel ~ From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 24 19:49:02 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:49:02 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101325742.2351.82.camel@shiva> i mean, if i am running 20 or more stateless clients, there's gonna be a whole lotta rsyncing going on Peter Schobel ~ From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 24 19:58:47 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:58:47 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101326327.2351.86.camel@shiva> btw, i am getting this msg on the console program python is using a deprecated SCSI ioctl, please convert it to SG_IO just fyi, Peter Schobel ~ From dmalcolm at redhat.com Wed Nov 24 19:55:40 2004 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:55:40 -0500 Subject: stateless linux In-Reply-To: <1101325585.2351.79.camel@shiva> References: <1101325585.2351.79.camel@shiva> Message-ID: <1101326140.12125.3.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 14:46 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > when i run /etc/cron.hourly/stateless-replicator on the stateless > client, it seems to rsync the snapshot and change the disk labels every > time > > shouldn't it be checking the ldap tree to see if the snapshot that is > running is current and then if it is, do nothing? Yes, it's meant to check that, and if things are current, it should do nothing. IIRC the cronjob checks on the "reserve" partition; it may be that although your active partition is current, but the reserve partition hasn't updated yet. Perhaps that's the case? Now I think about it, it might make sense to do the rsync locally from the active to the reserve in that case, to avoid unnecessary network traffic. From pschobel at porchlight.ca Wed Nov 24 20:13:44 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:13:44 -0500 Subject: stateless linux In-Reply-To: <1101326140.12125.3.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1101325585.2351.79.camel@shiva> <1101326140.12125.3.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101327223.2351.95.camel@shiva> ok, i guess what's happening is that it can't determine the snapshot information - any idea why this might be? [root at pinab-devel ~]# /etc/cron.hourly/stateless-replicator Mounting /dev/hda3 at /tmp/tmpkI23Bo/reserve_root (type ext3) Mounting /dev/hda1 at /tmp/tmpkI23Bo/reserve_boot (type ext3) Could not determine client snapshot information for reserve boot partition Provisioning data from server:(config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-8") Getting (config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-8") to device /dev/hda3 rsync url:"rsync://cms.porchlight.ca/stateless/pinab/pinab-8/" excluding /boot rsync finished role finished Getting (config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-8") to device /dev/hda1 rsync url:"rsync://cms.porchlight.ca/stateless/pinab/pinab-8/boot/" rsync finished role finished relabelling /dev/hda2 to "RESERVE_ROOT" relabelling /dev/hda3 to "/" relabelling /dev/hda5 to "RESERVE_BOOT" relabelling /dev/hda1 to "/boot" Unmounting /tmp/tmpkI23Bo/reserve_boot Probing devices to guess BIOS drives. This may take a long time. GNU GRUB version 0.95 (640K lower / 3072K upper memory) [ Minimal BASH-like line editing is supported. For the first word, TAB lists possible command completions. Anywhere else TAB lists the possible completions of a device/filename.] grub> root (hd0,0) Filesystem type is ext2fs, partition type 0x83 grub> install (hd0,0)/grub/stage1 d (hd0) (hd0,0)/grub/stage2 p (hd0,0)/grub/grub.conf grub> Unmounting /tmp/tmpkI23Bo/reserve_root Unmounting /tmp/tmpkI23Bo/reserve_boot Peter Schobel ~ On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 14:55, David Malcolm wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 14:46 -0500, Peter Schobel wrote: > > > > when i run /etc/cron.hourly/stateless-replicator on the stateless > > client, it seems to rsync the snapshot and change the disk labels every > > time > > > > shouldn't it be checking the ldap tree to see if the snapshot that is > > running is current and then if it is, do nothing? > Yes, it's meant to check that, and if things are current, it should do > nothing. > > IIRC the cronjob checks on the "reserve" partition; it may be that > although your active partition is current, but the reserve partition > hasn't updated yet. Perhaps that's the case? > > Now I think about it, it might make sense to do the rsync locally from > the active to the reserve in that case, to avoid unnecessary network > traffic. From d.lesca at solinos.it Wed Nov 24 22:03:14 2004 From: d.lesca at solinos.it (Dario Lesca) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:03:14 +0100 Subject: sshd: it is permit to login with a Empty Password Message-ID: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> On a standard installation of FC1 and FC2 (and FC3?) is permit to login with a user with a empty password ... is this correct? [root at igloo root]# man sshd_config > PermitEmptyPasswords > When password authentication is allowed, it specifies whether the > server allows login to accounts with empty password strings. The > default is ?no?. [root at igloo root]# grep PermitEmptyPasswords /etc/ssh/sshd_config #PermitEmptyPasswords no [root at igloo root]# useradd nopasswd [root at igloo root]# passwd -d nopasswd Removing password for user nopasswd. passwd: Success [root at igloo root]# ssh nopasswd at localhost nopasswd at localhost's password: Permission denied, please try again. nopasswd at localhost's password: [nopasswd at igloo nopasswd]$ id uid=505(nopasswd) gid=507(nopasswd) gruppi=507(nopasswd) [nopasswd at igloo nopasswd]$ How to disable this "feature"? Many thanks -- Dario Lesca From pschobel at porchlight.ca Thu Nov 25 00:12:33 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:12:33 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101341553.2351.230.camel@shiva> i have 2 filesystems mounted from my fstab /filestore and /mnt/usb they are mounted ok and i can see the data but i can't see them in /etc/mtab or running df also, my /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0 file is still disappearing and yet sometimes the file will be gone but the interface will still load i really feel like i need to have a better understanding of what the stateless-client and readonly-root packages are doing in order to admin this system if anyone can point me to some docs it would be _much_ appreciated i checked out the sml source from cvs but it didn't seem like there's anything in there that resembles documentation thx in advance, Peter Schobel ~ [root at pinab-devel ~]# cat /etc/fstab # This file is edited by fstab-sync - see 'man fstab-sync' for details LABEL=/ / ext3 defaults 1 1 LABEL=/boot /boot ext3 defaults 1 2 none /dev/pts devpts gid=5,mode=620 0 0 none /dev/shm tmpfs defaults 0 0 none /proc proc defaults 0 0 none /sys sysfs defaults 0 0 /dev/hda6 /filestore ext3 defaults 0 0 /dev/sda1 /mnt/usb ext3 defaults 0 0 [root at pinab-devel ~]# cat /etc/mtab /dev/hda2 / ext3 rw 0 0 none /proc proc rw 0 0 none /sys sysfs rw 0 0 none /dev/pts devpts rw,gid=5,mode=620 0 0 usbfs /proc/bus/usb usbfs rw 0 0 /dev/hda1 /boot ext3 rw 0 0 none /dev/shm tmpfs rw 0 0 none /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc binfmt_misc rw 0 0 sunrpc /var/lib/nfs/rpc_pipefs rpc_pipefs rw 0 0 none /proc proc rw 0 0 [root at pinab-devel ~]# df -m Filesystem 1M-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on /dev/hda2 3027 863 2011 31% / /dev/hda1 99 11 83 12% /boot none 126 1 125 1% /dev/shm sunrpc 3027 863 2011 31% /var/lib/nfs/rpc_pipefs From snickell at redhat.com Thu Nov 25 00:18:07 2004 From: snickell at redhat.com (Seth Nickell) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:18:07 -0500 Subject: Yum broken = no testing Message-ID: <1101341887.8737.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Yum in rawhide has been broken by Python changes (caused by Python 2.4.0 brokenness, I believe) for the past 2+ weeks. Ordinarily a broken package shouldn't be a cause for list discussion, but in this case the breakage has been going on for a while and effectively halts the testing of other packages. Can we please resolve this one way or another so Fedora development can continue? Relevant bug is: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138535 Sorry for the fuss... -Seth From greg at kroah.com Thu Nov 25 00:33:46 2004 From: greg at kroah.com (Greg KH) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:33:46 -0800 Subject: vmware and udev In-Reply-To: <20041119190106.97741.qmail@web60701.mail.yahoo.com> References: <419DDD79.2000204@bppiac.hu> <20041119190106.97741.qmail@web60701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041125003346.GA8178@kroah.com> On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 11:01:06AM -0800, Denis Leroy wrote: > On a more general note, is there any sort of communications between Red > Hat people (who have phones on their desk) and the very few companies > that do groundbreaking linux support (Nvidia, VMWare, ...) as far as > release schedules and support for new kernel features ? Just asking... No need, those companies all know exactly where to find the kernel and other linux developers, we don't hide anywhere. If they want to work with us, we are availble. There is no responsibility for us to go seek out them if they don't want to work together in the first place. In short, don't blame the Fedora/kernel developers, blame the companies who are not participating in the open development process. thanks, greg k-h From yusufg at outblaze.com Thu Nov 25 01:13:45 2004 From: yusufg at outblaze.com (Yusuf Goolamabbas) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 09:13:45 +0800 Subject: Anyone know of a tasteful LGPL HTML parser in C? In-Reply-To: <41A4C606.7090505@nc.rr.com> References: <41A4C606.7090505@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041125011345.GA12551@outblaze.com> > I'd like to attempt to support > rpm -qp http://download.fedora.redhat.com/.../*.rpm > within rpm by applying fnmatch(3) against parsed HTML hrefs. > > So I'm questing existing HTML parser imp[ementations before hacking up > something myself. > > The constraints on my rpm problem/implementation space are: > a) must be LGPL > b) must be in C. > c) must be reasonably small and reliable. > d) should work on a significant variety of HTML dialects without problem. How about El-Kabong from Jon Travis. I think Covalent wanted to donate this to the ASF. There was a thread on new-httpd about this a while ago (can't find it now) but check with Joe Orton http://sourceforge.net/projects/ekhtml/ From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Nov 25 01:33:05 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:33:05 -0500 Subject: Yum broken = no testing In-Reply-To: <1101341887.8737.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101341887.8737.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101346385.4952.4.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 19:18 -0500, Seth Nickell wrote: > Yum in rawhide has been broken by Python changes (caused by Python 2.4.0 > brokenness, I believe) for the past 2+ weeks. Ordinarily a broken > package shouldn't be a cause for list discussion, but in this case the > breakage has been going on for a while and effectively halts the testing > of other packages. Can we please resolve this one way or another so > Fedora development can continue? > > Relevant bug is: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138535 > > Sorry for the fuss... > You couldn't just add this to the bug? The bug appears to be in a beta release of python 2.4. I could put a couple of patches into yum but they'd just be a hold over until python gets fixed. -sv From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Thu Nov 25 02:09:25 2004 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 03:09:25 +0100 Subject: Fedora Extras on x86_64 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1101348565.3793.26.camel@littlePiet> Am Mittwoch, den 24.11.2004, 15:00 +0000 schrieb Jeremy Sanders: > I'm running FC2 on a new Athlon-64 system (x86_64 installation). > > Looking at http://www.linuxtx.org/amd64faq.html it suggests I can get > fedora extras from > http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/fedorax86_64/fedora.us/2/x86_64/ . > However, these are quite old compared to the i386 fedora extras. > There aren't any x86_64 binaries at > http://download.fedora.us/fedora/fedora/2/i386/RPMS.stable/ I'm running a x86_64 system since the release of FC2. As to my experiences the best repository for addons is Dag Wieers repo. There are numerous packages available. If you are missing one, write a mail to Dag and he usually will add the package within a week or so. The packages are very well crafted and I never had any compatibility issues with the Fedora Core set. Given Dag's knowledge and experiences with packaging for Fedora and Red Hat you can hardly do it better for yourself. yum config file is [dag] name= Dag Fedora Extra $releasever - $basearch - Base baseurl=http://apt.sw.be/fedora/$releasever/en/$basearch/dag/ enabled=1 gpgcheck=1 Another one is Axel Thimm's repo. The Yum file is: [at-stable] name=ATrpms for Fedora Core $releasever [ $basearch ] stable baseurl=http://apt.atrpms.net/fedora/$releasever/en/$basearch/at-stable enabled=1 gpgcheck=1 You can import the gpg keys by: rpm --import http://dag.wieers.com/packages/RPM-GPG-KEY.dag.txt rpm --import http://ATrpms.net/RPM-GPG-KEY.atrpms Regards Peter From caillon at redhat.com Thu Nov 25 07:36:42 2004 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:36:42 -0500 Subject: Yum broken = no testing In-Reply-To: <1101346385.4952.4.camel@cutter> References: <1101341887.8737.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101346385.4952.4.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <41A58B8A.1070204@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 19:18 -0500, Seth Nickell wrote: > >>Yum in rawhide has been broken by Python changes (caused by Python 2.4.0 >>brokenness, I believe) for the past 2+ weeks. Ordinarily a broken >>package shouldn't be a cause for list discussion, but in this case the >>breakage has been going on for a while and effectively halts the testing >>of other packages. Can we please resolve this one way or another so >>Fedora development can continue? >> >>Relevant bug is: >>https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138535 >> >>Sorry for the fuss... >> > > > You couldn't just add this to the bug? The bug appears to be in a beta > release of python 2.4. I could put a couple of patches into yum but > they'd just be a hold over until python gets fixed. Well... it'd be much easier for a user running the current python to get a new yum RPM to be able to fix their system than to go through the dependency fun that is upgrading python when something like yum is "busted". I am OK with this not going into the upstream yum package, but it might be worth adding to our packages for the time being.... From tmraz at redhat.com Thu Nov 25 08:01:32 2004 From: tmraz at redhat.com (Tomas Mraz) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 09:01:32 +0100 Subject: sshd: it is permit to login with a Empty Password In-Reply-To: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> References: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> Message-ID: <1101369692.25959.14.camel@sunquick.redhat.usu> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 23:03 +0100, Dario Lesca wrote: > On a standard installation of FC1 and FC2 (and FC3?) is permit to login > with a user with a empty password ... is this correct? This is fixed in FC3. > How to disable this "feature"? Remove: auth required pam_stack.so service=system-auth from /etc/pam.d/sshd and replace it with auth lines from /etc/pam.d/system-auth except with removing nullok option of pam_unix.so Or rebuild pam...src.rpm from FC3 on your FC2/1 and install it. -- Tomas Mraz From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Thu Nov 25 08:40:42 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 09:40:42 +0100 Subject: sshd: it is permit to login with a Empty Password In-Reply-To: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> References: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> Message-ID: <1101372042.12289.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 23:03, Dario Lesca wrote: > On a standard installation of FC1 and FC2 (and FC3?) is permit to login > with a user with a empty password ... is this correct? > [snip] > > How to disable this "feature"? Put a non working shell as default for this user. [root at igloo root]# useradd -s /sbin/nologin nopasswd If you've got it already created use, [root at igloo root]# usermod -s /sbin/nologin nopasswd -- Iago Rubio From dwmw2 at infradead.org Thu Nov 25 09:38:15 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 09:38:15 +0000 Subject: missing posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1101375495.13352.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 12:48 -0600, Nate Bradley wrote: > Why are my posts not showing up in fedora-list. I have a question for > the list. When asking such questions it is generally useful to provide the Message-Id of the messages which are missing, and the precise date and time at which they were first accepted by a mail server other than your own. Including the response from the receiving server if possible, since that often gives a local queue id for the same message. -- dwmw2 From mlauterbach at mail.wtamu.edu Thu Nov 25 11:57:35 2004 From: mlauterbach at mail.wtamu.edu (Matthew E. Lauterbach) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 05:57:35 -0600 Subject: missing posts In-Reply-To: <1101375495.13352.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101375495.13352.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101383855.5077.5.camel@mobile01> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 09:38 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 12:48 -0600, Nate Bradley wrote: > > Why are my posts not showing up in fedora-list. I have a question for > > the list. > > When asking such questions it is generally useful to provide the > Message-Id of the messages which are missing, and the precise date and > time at which they were first accepted by a mail server other than your > own. Including the response from the receiving server if possible, since > that often gives a local queue id for the same message. > > -- > dwmw2 > Just to cover the obvious, you do know that you have to be subscribed to the list to post to it, Nate? Matthew E. Lauterbach From mcwimpy at gmx.at Thu Nov 25 12:26:57 2004 From: mcwimpy at gmx.at (mcwimpy at gmx.at) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:26:57 +0100 (MET) Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on B&W PowerMacG3 References: <7144.1099910945@www16.gmx.net> Message-ID: <13706.1101385617@www45.gmx.net> Hello everybody! I promised u to send u my test report for the PowerMacG3. unfortunately i could do nothing the whole week, because i have to download a boot.iso and somehow there is no! I look every day 2 times at this sites http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/development/ppc/images/mac/ http://ftp.uni-koeln.de//mirrors/fedora/core/development/ppc/images/mac/ and hope this changes. What's the problem? Can i help somehow? When can i download a CD boot image. Or how can i make a bootable DVD? ciao, nico. -- NEU +++ DSL Komplett von GMX +++ http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl GMX DSL-Netzanschluss + Tarif zum superg?nstigen Komplett-Preis! From alan at redhat.com Thu Nov 25 12:36:41 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:36:41 -0500 Subject: Anyone know of a tasteful LGPL HTML parser in C? In-Reply-To: <20041125011345.GA12551@outblaze.com> References: <41A4C606.7090505@nc.rr.com> <20041125011345.GA12551@outblaze.com> Message-ID: <20041125123641.GB18377@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 09:13:45AM +0800, Yusuf Goolamabbas wrote: > How about El-Kabong from Jon Travis. I think Covalent wanted to donate > this to the ASF. There was a thread on new-httpd about this a while ago > (can't find it now) but check with Joe Orton Also do you need an HTML "parser" or something that reads HTML. I've got some code that will handle and render CHTML including misplaced tags and invalid quoting but it isn't what anyone could formally describe as an "HTML parser". It does work nicely for things like ripping URLs out of pages and its tiny From buildsys at redhat.com Thu Nov 25 12:41:29 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:41:29 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041125 changes Message-ID: <200411251241.iAPCfTV01261@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> New package system-config-lvm system-config-lvm is a utility which allows you to configure Logical Volume Management in a graphical setting. Updated Packages: dmraid-1.0.0-rc5f ----------------- foomatic-3.0.2-9 ---------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Tim Waugh 3.0.2-9 - Updated db to 20041124. - Updated hpijs-db to 1.5-20041124. - No longer need HP DJ 6122 patch. - No longer need ieee1284 patch. - Updated Omni-printers to 0.9.2. * Wed Nov 24 2004 Tim Waugh 3.0.2-8 - Minor PPD.pm fix for PPD import (bug #132625). gcc-3.4.3-6 ----------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.3-6 - make sure return value of __builtin_object_size () is size_t, not the internal sizetype type (otherwise spurious large integer implicitly truncated to unsigned type warnings might be emitted) * Tue Nov 23 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.3-5 - change s390{,x} stack layout to work-around GCC 2.95.3 bug: former -mno-backchain (the default), -mbackchain and -mkernel-backchain options were transformed into (in order) -mno-backchain -mpacked-stack, -mbackchain -mno-packed-stack and -mbackchain -mpacked-stack. A new combination -mno-backchain -mno-packed-stack is now the new default (Andreas Krebbel, #139678) gdb-6.1post-1.20040607.61 ------------------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Andrew Cagney 1.200400607.61 - For PPC-64, fix search for a symbol (wasn't specifying the section). * Wed Nov 24 2004 Andrew Cagney 1.200400607.60 - For PPC-64, do not set malloc name to ".malloc"; no longer needed. - For all, only define kfail when not already defined. * Wed Nov 24 2004 Andrew Cagney 1.200400607.59 - Bump version. glibc-2.3.3-84 -------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-84 - update from CVS - fix memory leak in getaddrinfo if using nscd (#139559) - handle large lines in /etc/hosts and /etc/networks (#140378) - add nonnull attributes to selected dirent.h and dlfcn.h functions * Sun Nov 21 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2.3.3-83 - update from CVS - add deprecated and/or nonnull attribute to some signal.h functions - speed up tzset () by only using stat instead of open/fstat when calling tzset for the second and following time if /etc/localtime has not changed - fix tgamma (BZ #552) gnome-spell-1.0.5-8 ------------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 David Malcolm - 1.0.5-8 - added explicit Requires on libgnomeui, libbonoboui, libglade2 and BuildRequires on the corresponding devel packages - removed erroneous BuildRequires on libgal2-devel and linc-devel (#140478) groff-1.18.1.1-5 ---------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 1.18.1.1-5 - Convert also mmroff.1 to UTF-8 initscripts-7.99-1 ------------------ * Wed Nov 24 2004 Bill Nottingham 7.99-1 - clear and repopulate mtab before mounting other filesystems (#139656) - remove more devfs compat koffice-4:1.3.5-1 ----------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Than Ngo 4:1.3.5-1 - 1.3.5 kudzu-1.1.100-1 --------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Bill Nottingham - 1.1.100-1 - clear out device on new usb interfaces (#130805) lvm2-2.00.27-1 -------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Alasdair Kergon - 2.00.27-1 - Fix partition table detection & an out of memory segfault. mc-1:4.6.1-0.10 --------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Jindrich Novy 4.6.1-0.10 - update from CVS - update promptfix patch, drop upstreamed strippwd patch - add badsize patch to fix displaying of filesizes >2GB - sync UTF-8 patches with upstream - replace autogen.sh style with configure * Fri Nov 12 2004 Jindrich Novy - convert man pages to UTF-8 (#138871) mozplugger-1.6.2-3 ------------------ * Wed Nov 24 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 1.6.2-3 - Convert man page to UTF-8 nut-2.0.0-6 ----------- * Thu Nov 25 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 2.0.0-6 - Convert newhidups.8 to UTF-8 openmotif-2.2.3-8 ----------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 2.2.3-8 - Convert man pages to UTF-8 openmotif21-2.1.30-13 --------------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Thomas Woerner 2.1.30-13 - latest Xpm patches: CAN-2004-0914 (#134631) - fixed CAN-2004-0687 (integer overflows) and CAN-2004-0688 (stack overflows) in embedded Xpm library (#134631) - new patch for tmpnam in imake (only used for build) rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041125 --------------------------- system-config-printer-0.6.117-1 ------------------------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Tim Waugh 0.6.117-1 - Requires pygtk2 >= 2.4.0 (bug #135716). - 0.6.117: - Another printer manufacturer alias (bug #139258). - Set PPD file mode to correct value (bug #140118). - Added fixes for PPD import. tcl-8.4.8-1 ----------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Jens Petersen - 8.4.8-1 - update to latest release tk-8.4.8-1 ---------- vnc-4.0-10 ---------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Tim Waugh 4.0-10 - Use fastjar, not jar, so that the package rebuilds (bug #140671). xorg-x11-6.8.1-19 ----------------- * Tue Nov 23 2004 Mike A. Harris 6.8.1-19 - Updated a few patches to apply with -p0 for consistency - Reordered some patches by patch number - Change libI810XvMC inclusion to be ifarch ix86/ia64/x86_64 only, since we know Intel video exists on those arches. This is better than excluding it on arches we know it is not available on, because the list is shorter this way, and exact. Less maintenance this way. * Tue Nov 23 2004 Mike A. Harris 6.8.1-18 - Remove libI810XvMC from PPC, as there is no Intel video hardware available for PPC architecture and this is an Intel video specific client side lib. - Added xorg-x11-6.8.1-r128-logout-deadlock.patch to fix lockup on logout bug on Rage128 with DRI (#138822) - Added xorg-x11-6.8.1-add-missing-lucidatypewriter-font.patch from upstream to fix bug with fonts that got inadvertently excluded from the X11 6.8.1 release. Our fonts-xorg package is being updated to include these additional fonts now as well (#139108, 139121, fdo#1560) - Enable xorg-x11-6.8.1-i810-update.patch for all OS version builds now. * Tue Nov 23 2004 Kristian H??gsberg 6.8.1-17 - Add libI810XvMC back on PPC filelists. - Move xorg-x11-6.8.1-battle-libc-wrapper.patch into fc4_build section. From jorton at redhat.com Thu Nov 25 12:55:00 2004 From: jorton at redhat.com (Joe Orton) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:55:00 +0000 Subject: Anyone know of a tasteful LGPL HTML parser in C? In-Reply-To: <20041125011345.GA12551@outblaze.com> References: <41A4C606.7090505@nc.rr.com> <20041125011345.GA12551@outblaze.com> Message-ID: <20041125125500.GA24790@redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 09:13:45AM +0800, Yusuf Goolamabbas wrote: > > I'd like to attempt to support > > rpm -qp http://download.fedora.redhat.com/.../*.rpm > > within rpm by applying fnmatch(3) against parsed HTML hrefs. > > > > So I'm questing existing HTML parser imp[ementations before hacking up > > something myself. > > > > The constraints on my rpm problem/implementation space are: > > a) must be LGPL > > b) must be in C. > > c) must be reasonably small and reliable. > > d) should work on a significant variety of HTML dialects without problem. > > How about El-Kabong from Jon Travis. I think Covalent wanted to donate > this to the ASF. There was a thread on new-httpd about this a while ago > (can't find it now) but check with Joe Orton That didn't happen, http://www.apacheweek.com/issues/02-09-13#dev. The code looked good though, and I believe Jon removed the dependency on APR too so it should be small and self-contained. joe From mmundy1 at umbc.edu Thu Nov 25 13:49:28 2004 From: mmundy1 at umbc.edu (Matthew Mundy) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:49:28 -0500 Subject: Yum broken = no testing In-Reply-To: <41A58B8A.1070204@redhat.com> References: <1101341887.8737.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101346385.4952.4.camel@cutter> <41A58B8A.1070204@redhat.com> Message-ID: <41A5E2E8.7060206@umbc.edu> It should be noted, only http is broken, ftp still functions and there are rawhide ftp mirrors. Christopher Aillon wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > >> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 19:18 -0500, Seth Nickell wrote: >> >>> Yum in rawhide has been broken by Python changes (caused by Python >>> 2.4.0 >>> brokenness, I believe) for the past 2+ weeks. Ordinarily a broken >>> package shouldn't be a cause for list discussion, but in this case the >>> breakage has been going on for a while and effectively halts the >>> testing >>> of other packages. Can we please resolve this one way or another so >>> Fedora development can continue? >>> >>> Relevant bug is: >>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=138535 >>> >>> Sorry for the fuss... >>> >> >> >> You couldn't just add this to the bug? The bug appears to be in a beta >> release of python 2.4. I could put a couple of patches into yum but >> they'd just be a hold over until python gets fixed. > > > > Well... it'd be much easier for a user running the current python to > get a new yum RPM to be able to fix their system than to go through > the dependency fun that is upgrading python when something like yum is > "busted". I am OK with this not going into the upstream yum package, > but it might be worth adding to our packages for the time being.... > From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Nov 25 16:05:53 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:05:53 -0500 Subject: sshd: it is permit to login with a Empty Password In-Reply-To: <1101372042.12289.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> <1101372042.12289.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <20041125160553.GA6332@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 09:40:42AM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > > On a standard installation of FC1 and FC2 (and FC3?) is permit to login > > with a user with a empty password ... is this correct? > Put a non working shell as default for this user. > [root at igloo root]# useradd -s /sbin/nologin nopasswd That'll make it kind of hard for the user to get any work done, won't it? -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Thu Nov 25 16:25:07 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:25:07 +0100 Subject: sshd: it is permit to login with a Empty Password In-Reply-To: <20041125160553.GA6332@jadzia.bu.edu>; from mattdm@mattdm.org on Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 11:05:53AM -0500 References: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> <1101372042.12289.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041125160553.GA6332@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <20041125172507.A14890@ryoko.camperquake.de> On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 11:05:53AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > That'll make it kind of hard for the user to get any work done, won't it? Work is quite overrated these days :) From loic.peron at bigfoot.com Thu Nov 25 16:52:14 2004 From: loic.peron at bigfoot.com (=?iso-8859-1?b?TG/vYyA=?= =?iso-8859-1?b?UOlyb24=?=) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:52:14 +0100 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> Hi list, I'd lmike to know what needs to be done to get FC3 minimal package set runnning on a i486. It seems only the kernel package is processor specific, and after some research, it seems the i486 and i586 ISA are identical. Could I just install minimal FC3 on a i586 then swap the harddrive to my i486 and hope it runs? Other gotchas? TIA -- Lo?c P?ron phone:(33) 683 880 177 mailto:loic.peron at bigfoot.com From alan at redhat.com Thu Nov 25 16:54:36 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:54:36 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> Message-ID: <20041125165436.GA6094@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 05:52:14PM +0100, Lo?c P?ron wrote: > It seems only the kernel package is processor specific, and after some research, > it seems the i486 and i586 ISA are identical. They are not quite when the kernel gets involved, but you can easily roll a 486 kernel. You might find it a bit slow on a 486 if the 486 lacks FPU as well as the newer font stuff is fairly FP heavy it seems From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Thu Nov 25 17:18:11 2004 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:18:11 +0100 Subject: i486 FC3 In-Reply-To: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> Message-ID: <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> Although I don't have an i486 anymore I'm interested in getting FC3 to run ok on older hardware, if there are more of us maybe we can spin of an fc3 on old hw project? This is not meant to be a fork, but to generate ideas / patches for fcX proper which will enable it to run on older HW. Regards, Hans From jerone at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 18:22:13 2004 From: jerone at gmail.com (Jerone Young) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:22:13 -0600 Subject: i486 FC3 In-Reply-To: <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <9f50a7a004112510226da4bde2@mail.gmail.com> There is no reason why you would need this. Fedora can run on old hardware now. i486 is just too old. Because hardware is so cheap now a day I don't believe anyone is going to want o waste their time with old hardware. While Linux techincally can run on it (you will need to recompile the FC kernel for i486, currently the default kernel has P5 optimizations, so it will boot), most will tell you take $100 and get a machine that is 1000x better. No reason to squander on the past that is just sooooo slow and so many problems (can you say IRQ conflicts, DMA settings .... oh soo many painful nights) , compared to the cheap hardware of today. The biggest problem is device drivers for older hardware. It's either works great now, or not there, or unmaintained and not no a good state. If your hadware falls in the latter two, then you need to hit LKML and start writting some device drivers. Having to deal with hardware pre Plug&Play is a headache no one whoould ever want to deal with again. Now don't get me wrong, a lot that our old stuff is going to poorer countries. Where they are using it as new. Fedora Core 3 runs on anything Pentium class and up now. I can tell you though that running KDE or Gnome on a Pentium 200 with 128mb Ram is pure torture (never had a chance to try Xfce though, I threw those boxes out). Only thing they are good for now for basic server side services stuff (apache , samba, etc) nowaday. On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:18:11 +0100, Hans de Goede wrote: > Although I don't have an i486 anymore I'm interested in getting FC3 to > run ok on older hardware, if there are more of us maybe we can spin of > an fc3 on old hw project? > > This is not meant to be a fork, but to generate ideas / patches for fcX > proper which will enable it to run on older HW. > > Regards, > > Hans > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de Thu Nov 25 18:23:13 2004 From: enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de (Enrico Scholz) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:23:13 +0100 Subject: i486 FC3 In-Reply-To: <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> (Hans de Goede's message of "Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:18:11 +0100") References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <87653tzt2m.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) writes: > Although I don't have an i486 anymore I'm interested in getting FC3 to > run ok on older hardware, if there are more of us maybe we can spin of > an fc3 on old hw project? I do not want to run it on i486 hardware but I have some i586 machines where FC does not run properly. Some simple steps would be: * fix the stupid and broken kernel-packaging. There are absolutely no reasons to ship the kernel-headers with the core kernel. This brokenness costs 20-30 MB of the root-partition and 6000 inodes. On small hardware, this can be a significant part of the entire root-partition. Unfortunately, the kernel maintainer is not responding on such requests... :( * split the gnupg package into a -core and -utils part. Core functionality is en/decryption and signing. I do not need LDAP and perl (required by optional gpgkeys_ldap + gpgkeys_mailto tools) for that. These additional dependencies cost 35MB. * replace the 'Requires: kernel >= 2.6' with 'Conflicts: kernel < 2.6' (which would be more correctly also). The kernel package is not required on minimal systems (e.g. VServers), it costs lot of diskspace because of the stupid and broken packaging and its installation is complicated. There are probably much more packages to split (e.g. 'howl' comes into my mind which provides the mDNSResponder daemon which is not required on most systems but installed on every one). These would save a small amount of diskspace only (perhaps 2-3 MB per package), but it would summarize up. Enrico From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Thu Nov 25 18:37:39 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:37:39 +0100 Subject: i486 FC3 In-Reply-To: <87653tzt2m.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> <87653tzt2m.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> Message-ID: <20041125193739.58d54755.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Enrico Scholz wrote : > * replace the 'Requires: kernel >= 2.6' with 'Conflicts: kernel < 2.6' > (which would be more correctly also). The kernel package is not > required on minimal systems (e.g. VServers), it costs lot of diskspace > because of the stupid and broken packaging and its installation is > complicated. I don't think there is an easy solution to this one! Putting a "Conflicts: kernel < 2.6" would also be problematic, and I recall having seen that somewhere (in FC2?), as I ran into the problem it creates : When you upgrade a system using apt or yum from a 2.4 (or earlier) kernel to FC w/ a 2.6 kernel, since the latest kernel is installed (and not upgraded) and the older ones aren't removed, you bump into that conflict... so either you go on a thin limb by removing all current < 2.6 kernels (with --justdb preferably! still, ugly...), or you try to outsmart that conflict by wanting to put a 2.6 kernel before upgrading the whole system... but end up finding out that the chain of dependencies when trying to do that ends up once more with that conflict :-( Back to the missing dependency granularity in rpm that doesn't allow something like "if we have a package providing 'kernel', then we want at least one with its version >= 2.6.0". I'm not saying I want that, though, but in this particular case, I see no "right" solution to the problem. Then there is the creating a dummy package providing "kernel", for those vservers it might just work. Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.681_FC3.r300 Load : 0.31 0.31 0.84 From fedora_devel_list at poczta.fm Thu Nov 25 18:40:45 2004 From: fedora_devel_list at poczta.fm (Dawid Gajownik) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:40:45 +0100 Subject: i486 FC3 In-Reply-To: <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <41A6272D.5020900@poczta.fm> Dnia 11/25/2004 06:18 PM, U?ytkownik Hans de Goede napisa?: > I'm interested in getting FC3 to run ok on older hardware Maybe this will interest you: http://rule-project.org/ -- ^_* ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Startuj z INTERIA.PL!!! >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1837 From alan at redhat.com Thu Nov 25 18:41:40 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:41:40 -0500 Subject: i486 FC3 In-Reply-To: <9f50a7a004112510226da4bde2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> <9f50a7a004112510226da4bde2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041125184140.GA3644@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 12:22:13PM -0600, Jerone Young wrote: > anything Pentium class and up now. I can tell you though that running > KDE or Gnome on a Pentium 200 with 128mb Ram is pure torture (never > had a chance to try Xfce though, I threw those boxes out). Only thing XFce + abiword is eminently usable in 64-128Mb. > they are good for now for basic server side services stuff (apache , > samba, etc) nowaday. And unlike a PIV also rather cheap to run of course. Admittedly I mostly keep my IDT Winchip box to annoy Dave Jones. From alan at redhat.com Thu Nov 25 18:43:22 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:43:22 -0500 Subject: i486 FC3 In-Reply-To: <87653tzt2m.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> <87653tzt2m.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> Message-ID: <20041125184322.GB3644@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 07:23:13PM +0100, Enrico Scholz wrote: > costs 20-30 MB of the root-partition and 6000 inodes. On small hardware, > this can be a significant part of the entire root-partition. > > Unfortunately, the kernel maintainer is not responding on such > requests... :( You might want to discuss kernel/kernel-devel arrangements with Dave after new year. Right now internally things are pretty hectic with fairly important deadline stuff. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Nov 25 19:18:45 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:18:45 -0500 Subject: i486 FC3 In-Reply-To: <20041125184140.GA3644@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> <9f50a7a004112510226da4bde2@mail.gmail.com> <20041125184140.GA3644@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101410325.4952.12.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 13:41 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 12:22:13PM -0600, Jerone Young wrote: > > anything Pentium class and up now. I can tell you though that running > > KDE or Gnome on a Pentium 200 with 128mb Ram is pure torture (never > > had a chance to try Xfce though, I threw those boxes out). Only thing > > XFce + abiword is eminently usable in 64-128Mb. > > > they are good for now for basic server side services stuff (apache , > > samba, etc) nowaday. > > And unlike a PIV also rather cheap to run of course. Admittedly I mostly > keep my IDT Winchip box to annoy Dave Jones. To get yum to be happier on low-mem machines, especially for updates try: yum --disablerepo=base update it will not import the base package set which drops the memory usage a bunch. -sv From alan at redhat.com Thu Nov 25 19:21:04 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:21:04 -0500 Subject: i486 FC3 In-Reply-To: <1101410325.4952.12.camel@cutter> References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> <9f50a7a004112510226da4bde2@mail.gmail.com> <20041125184140.GA3644@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101410325.4952.12.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20041125192104.GB13691@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 02:18:45PM -0500, seth vidal wrote: > To get yum to be happier on low-mem machines, especially for updates > try: > yum --disablerepo=base update > > it will not import the base package set which drops the memory usage a > bunch. Thanks From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Thu Nov 25 19:59:12 2004 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:59:12 +0100 Subject: i486 FC3 In-Reply-To: <9f50a7a004112510226da4bde2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> <9f50a7a004112510226da4bde2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41A63990.6010809@hhs.nl> Jerone Young wrote: > There is no reason why you would need this. Fedora can run on old hardware now. > I was asking if anyone was interested, I wasn't asking everybody who isn't interested to say the aren't interested, otherwise this is going to be a very long thread.... Regards, Hans p.s. Optimalisations done for old/small systems can benefit new/big systems too. From alan at lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Nov 25 19:12:36 2004 From: alan at lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:12:36 +0000 Subject: Cardbus problems on HP zv5000z In-Reply-To: <1100846391.31019.19.camel@zontar.fnordora.org> References: <1100846391.31019.19.camel@zontar.fnordora.org> Message-ID: <1101409955.18355.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Gwe, 2004-11-19 at 06:39, Alan wrote: > I have an HP zv5000z laptop. It has an AMD64 3700+ running FC3. > > Using the supplied kernel cardbus does not work. > > Using this patch (attached) cardbus works fine. Looks good, whats the original source of the changeset ? From alan at clueserver.org Thu Nov 25 20:11:36 2004 From: alan at clueserver.org (alan) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cardbus problems on HP zv5000z In-Reply-To: <1101409955.18355.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > On Gwe, 2004-11-19 at 06:39, Alan wrote: > > I have an HP zv5000z laptop. It has an AMD64 3700+ running FC3. > > > > Using the supplied kernel cardbus does not work. > > > > Using this patch (attached) cardbus works fine. > > Looks good, whats the original source of the changeset ? I will dig up the original source. It was posted to one of the HP lists I am on. I will get information as to who the author is and get back to you. -- Q: Why do programmers confuse Halloween and Christmas? A: Because OCT 31 == DEC 25. From alan at clueserver.org Thu Nov 25 20:21:14 2004 From: alan at clueserver.org (alan) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:21:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cardbus problems on HP zv5000z In-Reply-To: <1101409955.18355.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > On Gwe, 2004-11-19 at 06:39, Alan wrote: > > I have an HP zv5000z laptop. It has an AMD64 3700+ running FC3. > > > > Using the supplied kernel cardbus does not work. > > > > Using this patch (attached) cardbus works fine. > > Looks good, whats the original source of the changeset ? I got it from: http://quanta.homeip.net/pipermail/linuxr3000/2004-November/000706.html It refers to: http://quanta.homeip.net/pipermail/linuxr3000/2004-July/000175.html and http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2944 Hopefully that has enough information to track down the person to properly attribute. The patch applies cleanly to 2.6.9-667. I have not tried it on the newest one yet. It works correctly on my AMD64 zv5000z. -- Q: Why do programmers confuse Halloween and Christmas? A: Because OCT 31 == DEC 25. From shiva at sewingwitch.com Thu Nov 25 21:38:50 2004 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:38:50 -0800 Subject: sshd: it is permit to login with a Empty Password In-Reply-To: <1101372042.12289.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> <1101372042.12289.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: --On Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:40 AM +0100 Iago Rubio wrote: > If you've got it already created use, > > [root at igloo root]# usermod -s /sbin/nologin nopasswd You could also use the chsh command. From kyrre at solution-forge.net Thu Nov 25 21:49:14 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:49:14 +0100 Subject: OT: Help Kyrre with his LDAP authentification headatches :) Message-ID: <1101419354.3666.12.camel@kyrre> After reading to many pages on screen and on dead wood, asking (with no results) on forums, never receiving sign-up confirmation for the padl.com pamldap list, getting my post rejected at other LDAP mailing lists, and generally banging my head against the monitor for way to much time, i am hoping for a merciful harbor here. Please? If for nothing else, to save the forests from my printer? I am trying to set up a login-system based on LDAP - with a Debian (sarge) box as LDAP (and NFS) server, and Fedora Core 3 machines as clients. So far, no luck. (not for 2 months...). After finally getting the server to *start*, and adding what i (think is) an appropriate directory basic layout using phpldapadmin (running on an apache server on the same box), i still can't login. If i try to login (using su - *username*) from root, all i get is "user does not exist". I know the client is okay - if i direct it to an (older) ldap-running box, it works mountainously. I have a structure where all the user accounts are put in ou=People,dc=valler,dc=vgs,dc=no (as "PosixAccount" and "PosixGroup" according to phpldapadmin). This does work on the before mentioned box (if i have "copied" the setup right using gq to read it, and phpldapadmin to edit the new servers directory.) If i try to connect to the server using directory administrator, I can see all users/groups. Trying to change the user password gives an error, and if i try to create a new user i get "object class violation". Anybody who can help me? I am quite inexperienced when it comes to LDAP, and does now think i have spent way to many hours reading dead threes/on screen documentation of varying quality and relevance. I shall post any material you ask for. Kyrre Ness Sj?b?k From aleksey at nogin.org Thu Nov 25 21:55:10 2004 From: aleksey at nogin.org (Aleksey Nogin) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:55:10 -0800 Subject: linux-2.6.0-4g4g.patch breaks compilation with CONFIG_SOFTWARE_SUSPEND/CONFIG_PMDISK enabled. Message-ID: <41A654BE.6040908@nogin.org> If I try recompiling the kernel with CONFIG_SOFTWARE_SUSPEND enabled, I get: ... LD .tmp_vmlinux1 arch/i386/power/built-in.o(.text+0x1a3): In function `do_magic': : undefined reference to `swsusp_pg_dir' make: *** [.tmp_vmlinux1] Exit 1 This was introduced a while ago - somewhere between 2.6.5-1.358 and 2.6.6-1.427 and is still there with 2.6.9-1.681_FC3. As far as I can tell this is caused by the linux-2.6.0-4g4g.patch Additional details, a patch that fixes this (both a separate patch and a fixed linux-2.6.0-4g4g.patch) are available in https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=125882 -- Aleksey Nogin Home Page: http://nogin.org/ E-Mail: nogin at cs.caltech.edu (office), aleksey at nogin.org (personal) Office: Jorgensen 70, tel: (626) 395-2907 From kyrre at solution-forge.net Thu Nov 25 22:12:37 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:12:37 +0100 Subject: OT: Help Kyrre with his LDAP authentification headatches :) In-Reply-To: <1101419354.3666.12.camel@kyrre> References: <1101419354.3666.12.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1101420757.3854.5.camel@kyrre> tor, 25.11.2004 kl. 22.49 skrev Kyrre Ness Sjobak: > After reading to many pages on screen and on dead wood, asking (with no > results) on forums, never receiving sign-up confirmation for the > padl.com pamldap list, getting my post rejected at other LDAP mailing > lists, and generally banging my head against the monitor for way to much > time, i am hoping for a merciful harbor here. Please? If for nothing > else, to save the forests from my printer? > > I am trying to set up a login-system based on LDAP - with a Debian > (sarge) box as LDAP (and NFS) server, and Fedora Core 3 machines as > clients. > > So far, no luck. (not for 2 months...). After finally getting the server > to *start*, and adding what i (think is) an appropriate directory basic > layout using phpldapadmin (running on an apache server on the same box), > i still can't login. > > If i try to login (using su - *username*) from root, all i get is "user > does not exist". I know the client is okay - if i direct it to an > (older) ldap-running box, it works mountainously. > > I have a structure where all the user accounts are put in > ou=People,dc=valler,dc=vgs,dc=no (as "PosixAccount" and "PosixGroup" > according to phpldapadmin). This does work on the before mentioned box > (if i have "copied" the setup right using gq to read it, and > phpldapadmin to edit the new servers directory.) > > If i try to connect to the server using directory administrator, I can > see all users/groups. Trying to change the user password gives an error, > and if i try to create a new user i get "object class violation". > > Anybody who can help me? I am quite inexperienced when it comes to LDAP, > and does now think i have spent way to many hours reading dead threes/on > screen documentation of varying quality and relevance. > > I shall post any material you ask for. > > Kyrre Ness Sj?b?k Sorry for answering myself, but comparing the ldiff-files: in both i have a structure up to ou=People,dc=valler,dc=vgs,dc=no But in the working one, there is a "cn=Users,ou=People,dc=valler,dc=vgs,dc=no" in which all the users are placed. The groups are placed directly on People. On the non-functional server, both users and groups are placed directly on People. "cn=Users,ou=People,dc=valler,dc=vgs,dc=no" seems to be the "primary group" for all users (which i know is correct). It is at least a "posixGroup" objectClass. I hope i figured it out! Isn't it typical, after two months of headbanging, you post a desperate mail, and then the solution is there, 10 minutes later... Kyrre From mpeters at mac.com Thu Nov 25 22:25:15 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:25:15 +0000 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> (from loic.peron@bigfoot.com on Thu Nov 25 08:52:14 2004) References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> Message-ID: <1101421515l.4216l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/25/2004 08:52:14 AM, Lo?c P?ron wrote: > > Hi list, > > I'd lmike to know what needs to be done to get FC3 minimal package > set > runnning > on a i486. Google for the RULE project. Not sure if they support FC3 - but they have supported various RH distros in the past - with lower powered computers specifically in mind. From mpeters at mac.com Thu Nov 25 22:37:12 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:37:12 +0000 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <13706.1101385617@www45.gmx.net> (from mcwimpy@gmx.at on Thu Nov 25 04:26:57 2004) References: <7144.1099910945@www16.gmx.net> <13706.1101385617@www45.gmx.net> Message-ID: <1101422232l.4216l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/25/2004 04:26:57 AM, mcwimpy at gmx.at wrote: > Hello everybody! > > I promised u to send u my test report for the PowerMacG3. > unfortunately i > could do nothing the whole week, because i have to download a > boot.iso > and > somehow there is no! I look every day 2 times at this > sites > > http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/development/ppc/images/mac/ > http://ftp.uni-koeln.de//mirrors/fedora/core/development/ppc/images/mac/ > > and hope this changes. What's the problem? Can i help somehow? When > can i > download a CD boot image. Or how can i make a bootable DVD? I think you have to boot from a boot.iso (they are at the duke mirror for FC2 and FC3T2) and either ftp or nfs install. Please note that the boot.iso doesn't support network on all hardware, such as my first gen iMac. If the boot.iso fails to bring up your network, you aren't without possibilities - I had to install a bare bones YDL 3.0, remove as many rpm's as I could (and some more to resolve conflicts), manually update glibc and and a couple of other things that had epoch or version issues with FC versions, install Fedora release and Fedora yum, and then update from there - all without rebooting. The FC2 kernel did not properly boot my iMac - well it booted, but keyboard and network were broken. FC3T2 kernel would allow my keyboard to work but would not bring up my network. Hint - after getting to FC3T2 but still booted from YDL kernel, mirror the FC3T3 rpm packages and the groups xml file, use the createrepo rpm from x86 FC3 (it's noarch) to create new repodata - and install yum from x86 FC3 (it's noarch) Then point yum to the ppc FC3T2 tree on the HD and then you can do "yum grouplist" to see available groups of software and "yum groupinstall" to install entire groups of software. Necessary since going from YDL 3.0 to FC3T2 involves a very minimal YDL install. I never got networking on my iMac to work, and I gave up rather quickly - the newer kernels from rawhide wanted other things updated. Not worth the hassle for me since I would have to burn crap to CD to get it to the iMac. So hopefully a future PPC fedora tree with a boot.iso that boots my iMac will emerge. I may just junk the iMac though and buy an eMac - they are cheap and a lot faster. From loony at loonybin.org Thu Nov 25 23:07:59 2004 From: loony at loonybin.org (Peter Arremann) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:07:59 -0500 Subject: FC3 memory usage problem Message-ID: <200411251807.59483.loony@loonybin.org> I just upgraded my laptop from FC1 to FC3 a few days ago and since then I'm seeing terrible memory usages. The laptop has 1GB plus 1GB swap but I've ran it out of memory by simply using openoffice, mozilla and a few other smaller kde apps. Nothing similar has ever happened to me before and I checked everything I can come up with without result. Example Mozilla: Just after starting mozilla I see this: $ ps -eo"comm,vsize,rss" | grep mozilla mozilla-bin 97084 29392 After just visiting /. for a few stories the memory usage has grown to $ ps -eo"comm,vsize,rss" | grep mozilla mozilla-bin 142016 44528 Example OpenOffice: Starting OpenOffice $ ps -eo"comm,vsize,rss" | grep soffice soffice.bin 143976 51996 Opening a 9 page document with very simple layout (25000 characters) $ ps -eo"comm,vsize,rss" | grep soffice soffice.bin 157708 68780 After typing the word hert and the rightclicking to get corrections: $ ps -eo"comm,vsize,rss" | grep soffice soffice.bin 323336 234440 Example Kmail Starting Kmail: $ ps -eo"comm,vsize,rss" | grep kmail kmail 44352 24276 After viewing 15 emails from ebay: $ ps -eo"comm,vsize,rss" | grep kmail kmail 49796 30760 After viewing 100 random emails (about 30% html) $ ps -eo"comm,vsize,rss" | grep kmail kmail 69144 47132 Viewing the same 100 emails one more time: $ ps -eo"comm,vsize,rss" | grep kmail kmail 78956 53624 I'm a little suprised to see such memory usage within 15 minutes of booting my laptop. If I keep going, I'm running my laptop out of memory within about a day. Anyone got an idea? Peter. From symbiont at berlios.de Fri Nov 26 00:03:05 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 08:03:05 +0800 Subject: ACPI Causing Laptop To Emit High-pitch Whine Message-ID: <200411260803.12701.symbiont@berlios.de> Hi all: T30 laptop here; I know there's quite a few IBM-toting folks here, so I'm tossing this message here. ACPI causes some wierd interaction with possibly a capacitor near the CPU fan which makes it vibrate at a frequency that the human ear can detect. Course, if your AC is on, you're in the office, outside, etc. you're not going to hear it or care. But, when you'd like to retreat to a quiet setting to hack on some stuff it gets tr?s annoying with this thing whining at you. (Like, you already get enough of that from others during the day...) Anyhow, found a piece here that it happens on DELL: http://seclists.org/lists/linux-kernel/2003/Dec/1037.html I notice that we config in thermal.ko statically: CONFIG_ACPI_THERMAL=y So, guess I'll have to rebuild to do some experimenting. But, anyway, if you have suggestions, comments, off-topic redirects, let me know. thanks, -- -jeff -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Nov 26 00:44:52 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 08:44:52 +0800 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <13706.1101385617@www45.gmx.net> References: <7144.1099910945@www16.gmx.net> <13706.1101385617@www45.gmx.net> Message-ID: <1101429893.4658.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 13:26 +0100, mcwimpy at gmx.at wrote: > I promised u to send u my test report for the PowerMacG3. unfortunately i > could do nothing the whole week, because i have to download a boot.iso and > somehow there is no! I look every day 2 times at this > sites boot.iso stopped being generated, on not only PPC, I understand. There's an open bug report on this, and I'm sure it'll be fixed in due time > and hope this changes. What's the problem? Can i help somehow? When can i > download a CD boot image. Or how can i make a bootable DVD? There's a older tree at: http://fedoraproject.org/fedorappc/ There's also a FC3 release hidden somewhere *grin*, which at some stage we need to release it even if its semi-broken -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Nov 26 00:51:24 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 08:51:24 +0800 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <1101422232l.4216l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <7144.1099910945@www16.gmx.net> <13706.1101385617@www45.gmx.net> <1101422232l.4216l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1101430284.4658.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 22:37 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > I never got networking on my iMac to work, and I gave up rather quickly > - the newer kernels from rawhide wanted other things updated. Not worth > the hassle for me since I would have to burn crap to CD to get it to > the iMac. So hopefully a future PPC fedora tree with a boot.iso that > boots my iMac will emerge. I may just junk the iMac though and buy an > eMac - they are cheap and a lot faster. Networking never works on your iMac? Okay, let's presume DHCP is borked, can you set everything static based and see it work? If DHCP is failing, please file a bug report, and also provide the relevant tcpdump output. Some odd regression possibly, because I faced this during some early FC2 rawhide testing, but it was fixed -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From pschobel at porchlight.ca Fri Nov 26 01:44:47 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:44:47 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101433486.2351.240.camel@shiva> not getting a lot of replies to my posts, it seems that the replicator is having problems figuring out what it's supposed to do just to let u know what i'm working on [root at pinab-devel stateless]# python replicator.py Mounting /dev/hda3 at /tmp/tmpcq1uUK/reserve_root (type ext3) Mounting /dev/hda1 at /tmp/tmpcq1uUK/reserve_boot (type ext3) Could not determine client snapshot information for reserve boot partition Provisioning data from server:(config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-7") Root Partitions Active Snapshot on device "/dev/hda2" ID:"pinab" Version: pinab-6 (complete) Reserve Snapshot on device "/dev/hda3" ID:"pinab" Version: pinab-7 (incomplete) Boot Partitions Active Snapshot on device "/dev/hda5" ID:"pinab" Version: pinab-6 (complete) Reserve Snapshot not found Unmounting /tmp/tmpcq1uUK/reserve_root Unmounting /tmp/tmpcq1uUK/reserve_boot Peter Schobel ~ From pschobel at porchlight.ca Fri Nov 26 02:00:35 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:00:35 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101434435.2351.242.camel@shiva> more info, [root at pinab-devel stateless]# python replicator.py Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Device "/dev/hda2" has label "/" Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Device "/dev/hda2" has label "/" Device "/dev/hda3" has label "RESERVE_ROOT" Mounting /dev/hda3 at /tmp/tmp4rrUgD/reserve_root (type ext3) Could not determine client snapshot information for reserve root partition Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Device "/dev/hda2" has label "/" Device "/dev/hda3" has label "RESERVE_ROOT" Device "/dev/hda5" has label "/boot" Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Mounting /dev/hda1 at /tmp/tmp4rrUgD/reserve_boot (type ext3) Could not determine client snapshot information for reserve boot partition Provisioning data from server:(config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-7") Root Partitions Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Device "/dev/hda2" has label "/" Active Snapshot on device "/dev/hda2" ID:"pinab" Version: pinab-7 (complete) Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Device "/dev/hda2" has label "/" Device "/dev/hda3" has label "RESERVE_ROOT" Reserve Snapshot not found Boot Partitions Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Device "/dev/hda2" has label "/" Device "/dev/hda3" has label "RESERVE_ROOT" Device "/dev/hda5" has label "/boot" Active Snapshot on device "/dev/hda5" ID:"pinab" Version: pinab-7 (complete) Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Reserve Snapshot not found Unmounting /tmp/tmp4rrUgD/reserve_root Unmounting /tmp/tmp4rrUgD/reserve_boot Peter Schobel ~ From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Nov 26 02:43:12 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:43:12 -0500 Subject: FC3 memory usage problem In-Reply-To: <200411251807.59483.loony@loonybin.org> References: <200411251807.59483.loony@loonybin.org> Message-ID: <20041126024312.GA22650@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 06:07:59PM -0500, Peter Arremann wrote: > I just upgraded my laptop from FC1 to FC3 a few days ago and since then I'm > seeing terrible memory usages. The laptop has 1GB plus 1GB swap but I've ran Two things. First, since FC3 is released, this is better asked on the non-devel list. That said, are you running the latest errata kernel? -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From pschobel at porchlight.ca Fri Nov 26 02:58:32 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:58:32 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101437912.2351.246.camel@shiva> i have synced the boot and reserve-boot partitions to make sure that they're the same but still no go [root at pinab-devel stateless]# python replicator.py Mounting /dev/hda3 at /tmp/tmp5eB2U0/reserve_root (type ext3) Mounting /dev/hda1 at /tmp/tmp5eB2U0/reserve_boot (type ext3) Could not determine client snapshot information for reserve boot partition Provisioning data from server:(config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-8") Root Partitions Active Snapshot on device "/dev/hda2" ID:"pinab" Version: pinab-7 (complete) Reserve Snapshot on device "/dev/hda3" ID:"pinab" Version: pinab-7 (complete) Boot Partitions Active Snapshot on device "/dev/hda5" ID:"pinab" Version: pinab-7 (complete) Reserve Snapshot not found Unmounting /tmp/tmp5eB2U0/reserve_root Unmounting /tmp/tmp5eB2U0/reserve_boot Peter Schobel ~ From pschobel at porchlight.ca Fri Nov 26 03:32:24 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:32:24 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101439943.2351.249.camel@shiva> it would seem i just wasn't passing it the update flag python replicator.py update Peter Schobel ~ From pschobel at porchlight.ca Fri Nov 26 04:11:52 2004 From: pschobel at porchlight.ca (Peter Schobel) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:11:52 -0500 Subject: stateless linux Message-ID: <1101442312.2351.255.camel@shiva> i'm still getting this error Could not determine client snapshot information for reserve boot partition it only syncs the root partition and not the boot partition and the disk labels and grub aren't getting updated this was working at one point - any ideas what could cause that error? [root at pinab-devel stateless]# /etc/cron.hourly/stateless-replicator Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Device "/dev/hda2" has label "/" Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Device "/dev/hda2" has label "/" Device "/dev/hda3" has label "RESERVE_ROOT" Mounting /dev/hda3 at /tmp/tmpWLDLcJ/reserve_root (type ext3) Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Device "/dev/hda2" has label "/" Device "/dev/hda3" has label "RESERVE_ROOT" Device "/dev/hda5" has label "/boot" Device "/dev/hda1" has label "RESERVE_BOOT" Mounting /dev/hda1 at /tmp/tmpWLDLcJ/reserve_boot (type ext3) Could not determine client snapshot information for reserve boot partition Provisioning data from server:(config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-10") Getting (config "pinab", protocol "None", snapshot "pinab-10") to device /dev/hda3 rsync url:"rsync://cms.porchlight.ca/stateless/pinab/pinab-10/" excluding /boot rsync finished role finished Unmounting /tmp/tmpWLDLcJ/reserve_root Unmounting /tmp/tmpWLDLcJ/reserve_boot From loony at loonybin.org Fri Nov 26 03:11:51 2004 From: loony at loonybin.org (Peter Arremann) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:11:51 -0500 Subject: FC3 memory usage problem In-Reply-To: <20041126024312.GA22650@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <200411251807.59483.loony@loonybin.org> <20041126024312.GA22650@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <200411252211.51297.loony@loonybin.org> On Thursday 25 November 2004 21:43, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 06:07:59PM -0500, Peter Arremann wrote: > > I just upgraded my laptop from FC1 to FC3 a few days ago and since then > > I'm seeing terrible memory usages. The laptop has 1GB plus 1GB swap but > > I've ran > > Two things. First, since FC3 is released, this is better asked on the > non-devel list. That said, are you running the latest errata kernel? Sorry for that one - meant to post on the fedora list - but for everyone's sanity I think its better to leave it here rather than have two threads on different lists... Anyway, yes, running the latest and greatest kernel. Peter. From mpeters at mac.com Fri Nov 26 07:00:15 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:00:15 +0000 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <1101430284.4658.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> (from byte@aeon.com.my on Thu Nov 25 16:51:24 2004) References: <7144.1099910945@www16.gmx.net> <13706.1101385617@www45.gmx.net> <1101422232l.4216l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101430284.4658.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101452415l.4639l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/25/2004 04:51:24 PM, Colin Charles wrote: > On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 22:37 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > > I never got networking on my iMac to work, and I gave up rather > quickly > > - the newer kernels from rawhide wanted other things updated. Not > worth > > the hassle for me since I would have to burn crap to CD to get it > to > > > the iMac. So hopefully a future PPC fedora tree with a boot.iso > that > > > boots my iMac will emerge. I may just junk the iMac though and buy > an > > eMac - they are cheap and a lot faster. > > Networking never works on your iMac? Okay, let's presume DHCP is > borked, > can you set everything static based and see it work? > > If DHCP is failing, please file a bug report, and also provide the > relevant tcpdump output. Some odd regression possibly, because I > faced > this during some early FC2 rawhide testing, but it was fixed Not using dhcp - using a static IP on my lan. Network init script says it was starting, but eth0 was never brought up. It's possible that the network (ifcfg-eth0) setting set up by YDL were not sufficient for FC - I tried manually adjusting ifcfg-eth0 to look similar to the ifcfg-eth0 on an x86 FC3 box, but that didn't work - even when I tried modprobing various modules I thought might be responsible. I also tried running the network config tool - it didn't recognize eth0. I suspect it may be fixed by a newer kernel, but there were deps not installed when I tried to install it - I really need to get one of those USB keychain thingies, but I don't have one. I tried modprobing mace, sungem, a few others that looked reasonable (I believe mace is the correct one) - but the installed kernel is kind of old (from C3T2). I want to try with a newer kernel before I file any bug reports. I also want to pick up a USB key before I file a bug report, to make it easier to try different kernels. While I highly doubt this has anything to do with it, this is a first gen iMac but it has a Newer 433 G4 cpu daughtercard installed (opposed to the 233 G3 it came with) - It's the second rev of the mobo (the one used for Rev B/C/D iMacs) From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Nov 26 07:02:27 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:02:27 -0500 Subject: Yum broken = no testing In-Reply-To: <41A58B8A.1070204@redhat.com> References: <1101341887.8737.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101346385.4952.4.camel@cutter> <41A58B8A.1070204@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101452547.4952.22.camel@cutter> > Well... it'd be much easier for a user running the current python to > get a new yum RPM to be able to fix their system than to go through the > dependency fun that is upgrading python when something like yum is > "busted". I am OK with this not going into the upstream yum package, > but it might be worth adding to our packages for the time being.... so by that argument, if gtk had an api break then mozilla should work around it, rather than making the fix occur in gtk? -sv From rc040203 at freenet.de Fri Nov 26 07:40:25 2004 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 08:40:25 +0100 Subject: Yum broken = no testing In-Reply-To: <1101452547.4952.22.camel@cutter> References: <1101341887.8737.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101346385.4952.4.camel@cutter> <41A58B8A.1070204@redhat.com> <1101452547.4952.22.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1101454826.4624.7.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 02:02 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > Well... it'd be much easier for a user running the current python to > > get a new yum RPM to be able to fix their system than to go through the > > dependency fun that is upgrading python when something like yum is > > "busted". I am OK with this not going into the upstream yum package, > > but it might be worth adding to our packages for the time being.... > > so by that argument, if gtk had an api break then mozilla should work > around it, rather than making the fix occur in gtk? Yes. That's how things work in real world. As a developer you spend a significant time to work around bugs, API changes and things which don't behave as you expect them to do. Ralf From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Fri Nov 26 07:44:21 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 08:44:21 +0100 Subject: fedora.us and Extras FC3 Status In-Reply-To: <41A448A3.5050200@togami.com> References: <41A3FF10.7060005@redhat.com> <41A448A3.5050200@togami.com> Message-ID: <20041126084421.644d9e3a.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:38:59 -1000, Warren Togami wrote: > Gianluca Sforna wrote: > > > Anyway, does this means we have to wait for the Extras relaunch before > > making any new submission to the fedura.us bugzilla?? > > Not necessarily, any work done there will be imported to the trees after > launch, so it certainly wont hurt to fix and approve more packages in > the old fedora.us infrastructure. A few fronts explained: * The PUBLISH list - http://tinyurl.com/6jtlb This bugzilla query lists approved packages which will be built and put in the "pending" repository, and packages which have been built already and which wait for final verification before they are published in the main repository. ( http://www.fedora.us/wiki/PackageSubmissionQAPolicy#approve ) It something in e.g. the "pending/stable" repository causes trouble, that would be a good reason to reopen the corresponding package request ticket in bugzilla and block the package from being published. * The REVIEWED list - http://tinyurl.com/5dmpl This query lists packages which need approval from an additional person. ( http://www.fedora.us/wiki/PackageSubmissionQAPolicy#review ) * The UPDATE list - http://tinyurl.com/6679q This query lists update package requests, which often are considerably easier to review, because an older version of a package exists in the repository already and can be compared with. * The NEEDSWORK list - http://tinyurl.com/4l6my Packages, which fail to build or which are considered "not ready" by either reviewers or the package creator himself, are moved out of the main package requests list of packages waiting for QA. Setting this keyword is optional, but can be helpful. One benefit is, that active reviewers and potential reviewers don't run into such packages in the main list. Some abandoned packages are in there, too, e.g. where the creator stopped following a project or started trying a different distribution suddenly. As to what would be necessary to move such package requests forward should become clear in the comments. Replacement packages, which just work, would surely do. * The main QA list - http://tinyurl.com/4nxrw All package requests, which have the 'QA' bugzilla keyword set and hence are flagged as waiting for utilisable reviews and approvals according to the package submission policy. ( http://www.fedora.us/wiki/PackageSubmissionQAPolicy#review ) -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.681_FC3 loadavg: 0.22 0.54 0.28 From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Fri Nov 26 07:51:32 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:51:32 -0500 Subject: Yum broken = no testing In-Reply-To: <1101454826.4624.7.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> References: <1101341887.8737.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101346385.4952.4.camel@cutter> <41A58B8A.1070204@redhat.com> <1101452547.4952.22.camel@cutter> <1101454826.4624.7.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <1101455492.3667.4.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 08:40 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 02:02 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > > Well... it'd be much easier for a user running the current python to > > > get a new yum RPM to be able to fix their system than to go through the > > > dependency fun that is upgrading python when something like yum is > > > "busted". I am OK with this not going into the upstream yum package, > > > but it might be worth adding to our packages for the time being.... > > > > so by that argument, if gtk had an api break then mozilla should work > > around it, rather than making the fix occur in gtk? > Yes. That's how things work in real world. No. No, it is not. In the toy development system world, maybe. In the real world, major system libraries like GTK and Python remain ABI and API stable. If a breakage does occur, the breakage is separated into a new major version allowing both versions to be installed. GTK in fact makes that guarantee, and that is one of its biggest selling points. > > As a developer you spend a significant time to work around bugs, API > changes and things which don't behave as you expect them to do. That's not an excuse. That's a description of all that's wrong with the world from a programmer's perspective. ;-) Bugs are going to happen, but there is absolutely *no* reason for an API/ABI breakage, ever, without at least versioning the break correctly. That said, this is Rawhide, breakages are expected, especially so soon after the repository was opened for changes. > > Ralf > > From arjanv at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 08:04:20 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:04:20 +0100 Subject: ACPI Causing Laptop To Emit High-pitch Whine In-Reply-To: <200411260803.12701.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <200411260803.12701.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <1101456259.2813.4.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> > I notice that we config in thermal.ko statically: > > CONFIG_ACPI_THERMAL=y btw the reason for this is that a "please protect my machine from melting" doesn't really make sense as a module, you want that protection enabled as soon as possible during boot, and always. (well in theory anyway) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Nov 26 08:13:45 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:13:45 +0800 Subject: FC3 PPC development tree / installing FC3 on B&W PowerMacG3 In-Reply-To: <1101452415l.4639l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <7144.1099910945@www16.gmx.net> <13706.1101385617@www45.gmx.net> <1101422232l.4216l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101430284.4658.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101452415l.4639l.2l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1101456825.7469.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 07:00 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: Please follow-up to fedora-ppc at lists.infradead.org > Not using dhcp - using a static IP on my lan. > Network init script says it was starting, but eth0 was never brought > up. Later, when the computer starts, if ifup eth0 doesn't work, can you bring the interface up manually using ifconfig ? > It's possible that the network (ifcfg-eth0) setting set up by YDL were > not sufficient for FC - I tried manually adjusting ifcfg-eth0 to look > similar to the ifcfg-eth0 on an x86 FC3 box, but that didn't work - > even when I tried modprobing various modules I thought might be Why did you install YDL to bootstrap fedora? Fedora itself installs fine > responsible. I also tried running the network config tool - it didn't > recognize eth0. I suspect it may be fixed by a newer kernel, but there > were deps not installed when I tried to install it - I really need to > get one of those USB keychain thingies, but I don't have one. What kernel is this? > I tried modprobing mace, sungem, a few others that looked reasonable (I > believe mace is the correct one) - but the installed kernel is kind of sungem is the correct one. What iMac exactly do you have? We would appreciate lspci output > old (from C3T2). I want to try with a newer kernel before I file any > bug reports. I also want to pick up a USB key before I file a bug > report, to make it easier to try different kernels. Ok > While I highly doubt this has anything to do with it, this is a first > gen iMac but it has a Newer 433 G4 cpu daughtercard installed (opposed > to the 233 G3 it came with) - It's the second rev of the mobo (the one > used for Rev B/C/D iMacs) Hmm, post lscpi in your next post (only to fedora-ppc list). What does /proc/cpuinfo report ? (this is just for my curiosity) -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From dwmw2 at infradead.org Fri Nov 26 09:14:13 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:14:13 +0000 Subject: missing posts In-Reply-To: <1101383855.5077.5.camel@mobile01> References: <1101375495.13352.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101383855.5077.5.camel@mobile01> Message-ID: <1101460453.19141.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 05:57 -0600, Matthew E. Lauterbach wrote: > Just to cover the obvious, you do know that you have to be subscribed to > the list to post to it, Nate? He'd have received a bounce if he'd tried to post while unsubscribed, which would have explained the problem. -- dwmw2 From iago.rubio at hispalinux.es Fri Nov 26 09:54:16 2004 From: iago.rubio at hispalinux.es (Iago Rubio) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:54:16 +0100 Subject: sshd: it is permit to login with a Empty Password In-Reply-To: <20041125160553.GA6332@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> <1101372042.12289.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041125160553.GA6332@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1101462855.2440.4.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 17:05, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 09:40:42AM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > > > On a standard installation of FC1 and FC2 (and FC3?) is permit to login > > > with a user with a empty password ... is this correct? > > Put a non working shell as default for this user. > > [root at igloo root]# useradd -s /sbin/nologin nopasswd > > That'll make it kind of hard for the user to get any work done, won't it? You've got a big bunch of users in your system with no login shells, and they get their work done. Check your /etc/passwd. -- Iago Rubio From caillon at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 10:12:54 2004 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 05:12:54 -0500 Subject: Yum broken = no testing In-Reply-To: <1101452547.4952.22.camel@cutter> References: <1101341887.8737.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101346385.4952.4.camel@cutter> <41A58B8A.1070204@redhat.com> <1101452547.4952.22.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <41A701A6.6030107@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: >>Well... it'd be much easier for a user running the current python to >>get a new yum RPM to be able to fix their system than to go through the >>dependency fun that is upgrading python when something like yum is >>"busted". I am OK with this not going into the upstream yum package, >>but it might be worth adding to our packages for the time being.... > > > so by that argument, if gtk had an api break then mozilla should work > around it, rather than making the fix occur in gtk? Historically, that's more or less what happens (though they do try and get a fix made upstream as well). From harald at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 10:18:34 2004 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:18:34 +0100 Subject: i486 FC3 In-Reply-To: <20041125193739.58d54755.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <1101401534.41a60dbe2f8a5@imp6-q.free.fr> <41A613D3.60000@hhs.nl> <87653tzt2m.fsf@kosh.ultra.csn.tu-chemnitz.de> <20041125193739.58d54755.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <41A702FA.3050307@redhat.com> Matthias Saou wrote: > Enrico Scholz wrote : > > >>* replace the 'Requires: kernel >= 2.6' with 'Conflicts: kernel < 2.6' >> (which would be more correctly also). The kernel package is not >> required on minimal systems (e.g. VServers), it costs lot of diskspace >> because of the stupid and broken packaging and its installation is >> complicated. > > > I don't think there is an easy solution to this one! Putting a "Conflicts: > kernel < 2.6" would also be problematic, and I recall having seen that > somewhere (in FC2?), as I ran into the problem it creates : > When you upgrade a system using apt or yum from a 2.4 (or earlier) kernel > to FC w/ a 2.6 kernel, since the latest kernel is installed (and not > upgraded) and the older ones aren't removed, you bump into that conflict... > so either you go on a thin limb by removing all current < 2.6 kernels (with > --justdb preferably! still, ugly...), or you try to outsmart that conflict > by wanting to put a 2.6 kernel before upgrading the whole system... but end > up finding out that the chain of dependencies when trying to do that ends > up once more with that conflict :-( well e.g. udev really conflicts with kernel < 2.6, cause it obsoletes dev and your system really does not start with a kernel < 2.6 ... ok, you can workaround, but then you really should know, what you are doing. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From harald at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 11:17:29 2004 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:17:29 +0100 Subject: python 2.4 upgrade In-Reply-To: <200411112244.40655.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <41925201.3020904@balclutha.org> <200411112244.40655.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <41A710C9.5020408@redhat.com> Jeff Pitman wrote: > Can someone share with me when get_python_lib() != get_python_lib(1)? > Inquiring minds want to know. %pythondir, %pyexecdir, > %python_sitearch, %python_sitelib, are pretty superfluous macros. # python -c 'from distutils import sysconfig; print sysconfig.get_python_lib(1,0,prefix="/usr")' /usr/lib64/python2.3/site-packages # python -c 'from distutils import sysconfig; print sysconfig.get_python_lib(0,0,prefix="/usr")' /usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages # uname -pm ppc64 ppc64 differs for 64 bit! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 26 11:53:13 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:53:13 +0100 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> Some more Kernel Crash Bug Report snipset: for recal: if i simple reboot or halt the Fedora3 Maschine the Linux Kernle crashs ... by using the NVidia AGP Driver instead the Linux one using the latest Kernel 2.6.9-1.681_FC3 - attached - Regards Frank -------------- next part -------------- Nov 26 03:55:12 client shutdown: shutting down for system halt Nov 26 03:55:12 client init: Switching to runlevel: 0 Nov 26 03:55:13 client gdm-autologin(pam_unix)[2881]: session closed for user frank Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address db5a1000 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: printing eip: Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: c019e810 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: *pde = 1b4001e3 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Oops: 0000 [#1] Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Modules linked in: i2c_dev i2c_core nfs lockd sunrpc ipt_REJECT ipt_state ip_conntrack iptable_filter ip_tables ntfs nls_iso8859_1 vfat fat button battery ac joydev uhci_hcd parport_pc parport emu10k1_gp gameport snd_emu10k1 snd_rawmidi snd_pcm_oss snd_mixer_oss snd_pcm snd_timer snd_seq_device snd_ac97_codec snd_page_alloc snd_util_mem snd_hwdep snd soundcore 3c59x floppy nvidia(U) ext3 jbd Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: CPU: 0 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EIP: 0060:[] Tainted: P VLI Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EFLAGS: 00010246 (2.6.9-1.681_FC3.root) Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EIP is at fast_copy_page+0x33/0xd5 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: eax: 0000003a ebx: db5a1000 ecx: db472000 edx: db5a1000 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: esi: db472000 edi: c136b420 ebp: c1368e40 esp: db4ceeb0 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: ds: 007b es: 007b ss: 0068 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Process hotplug (pid: 4314, threadinfo=db4ce000 task=db883560) Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Stack: db472000 db5a1000 c0138106 09163014 d5c32660 dddb2340 d6132090 09163014 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: dddb2340 d5c32660 c0138c97 db47158c d6132090 1b5a1065 dddb2340 dddb2370 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: d5c32660 db883560 c0112699 00000001 00000001 09163014 db4cefc4 c02805cf Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Call Trace: Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] do_wp_page+0x14b/0x29d Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] handle_mm_fault+0xae/0xf1 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] do_page_fault+0x19b/0x4ba Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] __wake_up+0x11/0x1a Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] destroy_inode+0x36/0x45 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] do_page_fault+0x0/0x4ba Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] error_code+0x2f/0x38 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] schedule_tail+0x3e/0x44 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] do_page_fault+0x0/0x4ba Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] error_code+0x2f/0x38 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Code: b9 f6 ff 0f 0d 03 0f 0d 43 40 0f 0d 83 80 00 00 00 0f 0d 83 c0 00 00 00 0f 0d 83 00 01 00 00 b8 3a 00 00 00 0f 0d 83 40 01 00 00 <0f> 6f 03 0f e7 06 0f 6f 4b 08 0f e7 4e 08 0f 6f 53 10 0f e7 56 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: <6>note: hotplug[4314] exited with preempt_count 2 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address db5a9000 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: printing eip: Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: c019e813 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: *pde = 1b4001e3 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Oops: 0002 [#2] Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Modules linked in: i2c_dev i2c_core nfs lockd sunrpc ipt_REJECT ipt_state ip_conntrack iptable_filter ip_tables ntfs nls_iso8859_1 vfat fat button battery ac joydev uhci_hcd parport_pc parport emu10k1_gp gameport snd_emu10k1 snd_rawmidi snd_pcm_oss snd_mixer_oss snd_pcm snd_timer snd_seq_device snd_ac97_codec snd_page_alloc snd_util_mem snd_hwdep snd soundcore 3c59x floppy nvidia(U) ext3 jbd Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: CPU: 0 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EIP: 0060:[] Tainted: P VLI Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EFLAGS: 00010246 (2.6.9-1.681_FC3.root) Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EIP is at fast_copy_page+0x36/0xd5 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: eax: 0000003a ebx: d76db000 ecx: db5a9000 edx: d76db000 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: esi: db5a9000 edi: c12edb60 ebp: c136b520 esp: db4ceea4 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: ds: 007b es: 007b ss: 0068 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Process default.hotplug (pid: 4315, threadinfo=db4ce000 task=db883560) Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Stack: db5a9000 d76db000 c0138992 00000000 de70c3d4 007b1040 d5d60f3c ca090040 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: 00000001 cf750004 007b1040 ca090040 d5d60f3c c0138c4e 00000001 db478ec4 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: cf750004 ca090040 ca090070 d5d60f3c db883560 c0112699 00000001 00000001 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Call Trace: Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] do_no_page+0x11c/0x2c5 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] handle_mm_fault+0x65/0xf1 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] do_page_fault+0x19b/0x4ba Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] vma_link+0x6a/0x70 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] old_mmap+0xe8/0x11d Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] old_mmap+0x111/0x11d Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] do_page_fault+0x0/0x4ba Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] error_code+0x2f/0x38 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Code: 0f 0d 03 0f 0d 43 40 0f 0d 83 80 00 00 00 0f 0d 83 c0 00 00 00 0f 0d 83 00 01 00 00 b8 3a 00 00 00 0f 0d 83 40 01 00 00 0f 6f 03 <0f> e7 06 0f 6f 4b 08 0f e7 4e 08 0f 6f 53 10 0f e7 56 10 0f 6f Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: <6>note: default.hotplug[4315] exited with preempt_count 2 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address db5ac000 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: printing eip: Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: c015b0d2 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: *pde = 1b4001e3 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Oops: 0002 [#3] Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Modules linked in: i2c_dev i2c_core nfs lockd sunrpc ipt_REJECT ipt_state ip_conntrack iptable_filter ip_tables ntfs nls_iso8859_1 vfat fat button battery ac joydev uhci_hcd parport_pc parport emu10k1_gp gameport snd_emu10k1 snd_rawmidi snd_pcm_oss snd_mixer_oss snd_pcm snd_timer snd_seq_device snd_ac97_codec snd_page_alloc snd_util_mem snd_hwdep snd soundcore 3c59x floppy nvidia(U) ext3 jbd Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: CPU: 0 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EIP: 0060:[] Tainted: P VLI Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EFLAGS: 00010246 (2.6.9-1.681_FC3.root) Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EIP is at seq_escape+0x4a/0xae Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: eax: 00000000 ebx: 00000072 ecx: db5ac000 edx: 00000072 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: esi: 00000001 edi: de18bb60 ebp: c0282f18 esp: c99ccf28 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: ds: 007b es: 007b ss: 0068 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Process udev (pid: 4319, threadinfo=c99cc000 task=d2492aa0) Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Stack: db5ad000 dffea9c0 c02b7000 de18bb60 c14da5c0 00000000 c015910d de18bb78 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: de18bb60 c14da5c0 c14da5c0 c015aca4 00100073 00000000 00000400 b7fff000 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: 00000001 00000000 00000000 00000000 c02b7f60 de042c40 00000400 c99ccfac Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Call Trace: Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] show_vfsmnt+0x28/0xf5 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] seq_read+0x102/0x286 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] vfs_read+0xb6/0xe2 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] sys_read+0x3c/0x62 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] syscall_call+0x7/0xb Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Code: 4f 0c 0f b6 18 84 db 74 78 39 d1 73 74 0f be d3 89 ee 89 d0 88 c4 ac 38 e0 74 09 84 c0 75 f7 be 01 00 00 00 89 f0 48 85 c0 75 04 <88> 19 eb 3d 8d 41 03 3b 04 24 73 2a 89 d0 83 e2 38 c6 01 5c 25 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: <1>Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address db454110 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: printing eip: Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: c0156518 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: *pde = 1b4001e3 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Oops: 0000 [#4] Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Modules linked in: i2c_dev i2c_core nfs lockd sunrpc ipt_REJECT ipt_state ip_conntrack iptable_filter ip_tables ntfs nls_iso8859_1 vfat fat button battery ac joydev uhci_hcd parport_pc parport emu10k1_gp gameport snd_emu10k1 snd_rawmidi snd_pcm_oss snd_mixer_oss snd_pcm snd_timer snd_seq_device snd_ac97_codec snd_page_alloc snd_util_mem snd_hwdep snd soundcore 3c59x floppy nvidia(U) ext3 jbd Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: CPU: 0 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EIP: 0060:[] Tainted: P VLI Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EFLAGS: 00010282 (2.6.9-1.681_FC3.root) Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: EIP is at __d_lookup+0x61/0xd9 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: eax: c1430fc0 ebx: e2a6dd9b ecx: 00000011 edx: c140f200 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: esi: db454110 edi: 00000000 ebp: dc761ef0 esp: dc761e80 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: ds: 007b es: 007b ss: 0068 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Process uname (pid: 4323, threadinfo=dc761000 task=d2208aa0) Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Stack: 00000000 c1430fc0 de369005 e2a6dd9b 0000000b dfd931b0 e2a6dd9b dc761f58 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: 00000000 dc761ef0 c014dc71 c14da1a0 dc761ee8 e2a6dd9b dfcb9e04 e2a6dd9b Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: dc761f58 c014e38e 00000000 0064e000 ca0907c0 de0fa0cc c0138c4e 00000101 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Call Trace: Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] do_lookup+0x1f/0x8f Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] link_path_walk+0x6ad/0x9f5 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] handle_mm_fault+0x65/0xf1 Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] path_lookup+0xff/0x12f Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] open_namei+0x99/0x53b Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] filp_open+0x23/0x3c Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] direct_strncpy_from_user+0x2d/0x4c Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] sys_open+0x31/0x7d Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: [] syscall_call+0x7/0xb Nov 26 03:55:14 client kernel: Code: 8b 0d 2c 54 33 c0 89 c2 81 f2 01 00 37 9e d3 ea 31 d0 23 05 28 54 33 c0 8b 15 30 54 33 c0 8d 04 82 89 44 24 04 8b 30 85 f6 74 6d <8b> 06 0f 18 00 90 8d 5e a0 8b 4c 24 0c 39 4b 14 75 57 8b 44 24 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: <1>Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address db454110 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: printing eip: Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: c0156518 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: *pde = 1b4001e3 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: Oops: 0000 [#5] Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: Modules linked in: i2c_dev i2c_core nfs lockd sunrpc ipt_REJECT ipt_state ip_conntrack iptable_filter ip_tables ntfs nls_iso8859_1 vfat fat button battery ac joydev uhci_hcd parport_pc parport emu10k1_gp gameport snd_emu10k1 snd_rawmidi snd_pcm_oss snd_mixer_oss snd_pcm snd_timer snd_seq_device snd_ac97_codec snd_page_alloc snd_util_mem snd_hwdep snd soundcore 3c59x floppy nvidia(U) ext3 jbd Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: CPU: 0 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: EIP: 0060:[] Tainted: P VLI Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: EFLAGS: 00010282 (2.6.9-1.681_FC3.root) Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: EIP is at __d_lookup+0x61/0xd9 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: eax: c1430fc0 ebx: e2a6dd9b ecx: 00000011 edx: c140f200 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: esi: db454110 edi: 00000000 ebp: d6a7eef0 esp: d6a7ee80 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: ds: 007b es: 007b ss: 0068 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: Process uname (pid: 4357, threadinfo=d6a7e000 task=d1815560) Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: Stack: 00000000 c1430fc0 d1d05005 e2a6dd9b 0000000b dfd931b0 e2a6dd9b d6a7ef58 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: 00000000 d6a7eef0 c014dc71 c14da1a0 d6a7eee8 e2a6dd9b dfcb9e04 e2a6dd9b Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: d6a7ef58 c014e38e 00000000 0064e000 de3f50e0 c72c0804 c0138c4e 00000101 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: Call Trace: Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: [] do_lookup+0x1f/0x8f Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: [] link_path_walk+0x6ad/0x9f5 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: [] handle_mm_fault+0x65/0xf1 Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: [] path_lookup+0xff/0x12f Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: [] open_namei+0x99/0x53b Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: [] filp_open+0x23/0x3c Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: [] direct_strncpy_from_user+0x2d/0x4c Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: [] sys_open+0x31/0x7d Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: [] syscall_call+0x7/0xb Nov 26 03:55:15 client kernel: Code: 8b 0d 2c 54 33 c0 89 c2 81 f2 01 00 37 9e d3 ea 31 d0 23 05 28 54 33 c0 8b 15 30 54 33 c0 8d 04 82 89 44 24 04 8b 30 85 f6 74 6d <8b> 06 0f 18 00 90 8d 5e a0 8b 4c 24 0c 39 4b 14 75 57 8b 44 24 Nov 26 03:55:15 client haldaemon: haldaemon -TERM succeeded From d.lesca at solinos.it Fri Nov 26 11:54:09 2004 From: d.lesca at solinos.it (Dario Lesca) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:54:09 +0100 Subject: sshd: it is permit to login with a Empty Password In-Reply-To: <1101369692.25959.14.camel@sunquick.redhat.usu> References: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> <1101369692.25959.14.camel@sunquick.redhat.usu> Message-ID: <1101470049.2404.140.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> Il gio, 2004-11-25 alle 09:01, Tomas Mraz ha scritto: > On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 23:03 +0100, Dario Lesca wrote: > > On a standard installation of FC1 and FC2 (and FC3?) is permit to login > > with a user with a empty password ... is this correct? > This is fixed in FC3. so this is a bug. (bad bug!), if I say "PermitEmptyPasswords no" SSHD must NON permit logon to user whitout a password. is a bug of openssh or fc-openssh? Many thanks for your reply. -- Dario Lesca From buildsys at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 12:18:27 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:18:27 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041126 changes Message-ID: <200411261218.iAQCIRP01538@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: perl-libwww-perl-5.79-6 ----------------------- * Thu Nov 25 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 5.79-6 - Convert man page to UTF-8 rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041126 --------------------------- sane-backends-1.0.15-6 ---------------------- * Thu Nov 25 2004 Tim Waugh 1.0.15-6 - Random changes in libusbscanner. From arjanv at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 12:25:28 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:25:28 +0100 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <1101471928.2813.9.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 12:53 +0100, Frank wrote: > Some more Kernel Crash Bug Report snipset: > > for recal: if i simple reboot or halt the Fedora3 Maschine the Linux > Kernle crashs ... by using the NVidia AGP Driver instead the Linux one ...so don't do that then and use less-buggy kernel components, like the ones Fedora ships. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 26 12:44:33 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:44:33 +0100 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1101471928.2813.9.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> <1101471928.2813.9.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041126124438.2063475358@mail.figaro.fr> Arjan van de Ven: > On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 12:53 +0100, Frank wrote: > > Some more Kernel Crash Bug Report snipset: > > > > for recal: if i simple reboot or halt the Fedora3 Maschine the Linux > > Kernle crashs ... by using the NVidia AGP Driver instead the Linux one > > ...so don't do that then and use less-buggy kernel components, like the > ones Fedora ships. a nice logic .. use THE one WE provide - and all others are buggy remind please - the NVidia one outperformes the LINUX one, so should i use the slowly Linux kernel agp driver playing doom3 in your Opinion ? or going to microsoft using there OS or pay you for a private fix ? is this your Intention lauthing "so dont use ..." besides, what is buggy in your Eys ? Iam very content with thr NVidia one ... why you must rewrite a agp driver while this one still exists from the Vendor itself ? Greetings Frank From arjanv at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 12:48:57 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:48:57 +0100 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126124438.2063475358@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> <1101471928.2813.9.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041126124438.2063475358@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <20041126124857.GB5173@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 26, 2004 at 01:44:33PM +0100, Frank wrote: > Arjan van de Ven: > > > On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 12:53 +0100, Frank wrote: > > > Some more Kernel Crash Bug Report snipset: > > > > > > for recal: if i simple reboot or halt the Fedora3 Maschine the Linux > > > Kernle crashs ... by using the NVidia AGP Driver instead the Linux one > > > > ...so don't do that then and use less-buggy kernel components, like the > > ones Fedora ships. > > a nice logic .. use THE one WE provide - and all others are buggy I did not say nor imply the later. > > remind please - the NVidia one outperformes the LINUX one, so should i > use the slowly Linux kernel agp driver playing doom3 in your Opinion ? > or going to microsoft using there OS or pay you for a private fix ? well have you filed a bug about the linux one being slower? (I find it hard to imagine an agp driver being slower other than initial hw setup, which for sure can be fixed). Do provide details about the exact hw you have (eg which agp chipset etc etc). > besides, what is buggy in your Eys ? Iam very content with thr NVidia > one ... ... except for the oopses you get. That's obviously a very bad sign, and a general indication that there is a bug in the binary one you use. > why you must rewrite a agp driver while this one still exists > from the Vendor itself ? why do you use an open source operating system if you can use a binary only one from other vendors ? ;) realistically agp drivers in linux have to be inside the kernel for correct operation in several circumstances (eg the resource management of the kernel depends on knowing where "stuff" is, and the AGP aparture is one of the resources that needs to be known there) From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Fri Nov 26 12:50:36 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:50:36 +0100 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126124438.2063475358@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> <1101471928.2813.9.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041126124438.2063475358@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <20041126135036.198d1379.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Frank wrote : > besides, what is buggy in your Eys ? Iam very content with thr NVidia > one ... why you must rewrite a agp driver while this one still exists > from the Vendor itself ? Freedom, it's all about freedom. Anyone who doesn't understand that and argues about playing Doom 3 should probably take one more browse around the http://www.gnu.org/ website. Technical achievements are one thing, keeping your freedom is another. Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.681_FC3.r300 Load : 1.04 0.80 0.71 From guhvies at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 12:54:43 2004 From: guhvies at gmail.com (ne...) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:54:43 -0500 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126124438.2063475358@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> <1101471928.2813.9.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041126124438.2063475358@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:44:33 +0100, Frank wrote: > Arjan van de Ven: > > On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 12:53 +0100, Frank wrote: > > > Some more Kernel Crash Bug Report snipset: > > > > > > for recal: if i simple reboot or halt the Fedora3 Maschine the Linux > > > Kernle crashs ... by using the NVidia AGP Driver instead the Linux one > > > > ...so don't do that then and use less-buggy kernel components, like the > > ones Fedora ships. > > a nice logic .. use THE one WE provide - and all others are buggy > > remind please - the NVidia one outperformes the LINUX one, so should i > use the slowly Linux kernel agp driver playing doom3 in your Opinion ? > or going to microsoft using there OS or pay you for a private fix ? You are using a binary module whose source code the RH guys do not have access to. If your machine breaks, you are all on your own. RH/FC cannot fix it for you. What you really need to do is report your problems on the nVidia forums. Finding out where they are is left as an exercise for you. Flaming Arjan will only get you the Hand (tm). N.Emile... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Certified: 75% bastard, 42% of which is tard. http://www.thespark.com/bastardtest From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 26 13:01:38 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:01:38 +0100 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126135036.198d1379.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> <1101471928.2813.9.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041126124438.2063475358@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126135036.198d1379.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> Message-ID: <20041126130144.B7F7475358@mail.figaro.fr> Am Freitag, den 26.11.2004, 13:50 +0100 schrieb Matthias Saou: > Freedom, it's all about freedom. Anyone who doesn't understand that and > argues about playing Doom 3 should probably take one more browse around the > http://www.gnu.org/ website. i know gnu.org and support the Freedom View very high ... so could ask too _which_ freedom exactly ... the normal users have to live with a slow agp driver while on the other Side idgames _is_ and _was_ always very Linux supporting. Further, they are suggesting high Performance and i love it too. I upgraded my Hardware ... but have to live with an slow agp driver while the quicker one is non-freedom oriented in your Eys. Please have a look at the Radion Drivers. Shure i use the NVidia driver with Fedora3, but the Kernel crashes alway on Reboot, shure i use the EXT3 FS too, shure my Databases loves it to crash, and shure i have to decide if i want playing or using my dream OS like it is supposed from Fedora. So again, wich Freedom do you mean ? Greetings Frank From tmraz at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 13:05:29 2004 From: tmraz at redhat.com (Tomas Mraz) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:05:29 +0100 Subject: sshd: it is permit to login with a Empty Password In-Reply-To: <1101470049.2404.140.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> References: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> <1101369692.25959.14.camel@sunquick.redhat.usu> <1101470049.2404.140.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> Message-ID: <1101474329.6564.7.camel@sunquick.redhat.usu> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 12:54 +0100, Dario Lesca wrote: > Il gio, 2004-11-25 alle 09:01, Tomas Mraz ha scritto: > > On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 23:03 +0100, Dario Lesca wrote: > > > On a standard installation of FC1 and FC2 (and FC3?) is permit to login > > > with a user with a empty password ... is this correct? > > This is fixed in FC3. > > so this is a bug. (bad bug!), if I say "PermitEmptyPasswords no" SSHD > must NON permit logon to user whitout a password. > > is a bug of openssh or fc-openssh? Bug in PAM. -- Tomas Mraz From huw-l at moving-picture.com Fri Nov 26 13:08:08 2004 From: huw-l at moving-picture.com (Huw Lynes) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:08:08 +0000 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <20041126130808.5636182b.huw-l@moving-picture.com> On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:53:13 +0100 Frank wrote: > Some more Kernel Crash Bug Report snipset: > > for recal: if i simple reboot or halt the Fedora3 Maschine the Linux > Kernle crashs ... by using the NVidia AGP Driver instead the Linux one > > using the latest Kernel 2.6.9-1.681_FC3 > report it to nvidia. They are the only people who are going to be able to tell if this crash has anything to do with their driver. -- | Huw Lynes | The Moving Picture Company | | System Administrator | 127 Wardour Street | |.........................| London, W1F 0NL | From harald at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 13:09:23 2004 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:09:23 +0100 Subject: udev and palm pilot In-Reply-To: <1100315919.4055.6.camel@supernova> References: <1100310865.3488.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100315919.4055.6.camel@supernova> Message-ID: <41A72B03.4020205@redhat.com> John Mizell wrote: > In the docs at http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/udev/ > Palm Pilot > If you have udev >= 032-5, execute the command: > > > ln -s ttyUSB1 /etc/udev/devices/pilot > > In my case I needed ttyUSB0 so I did: > ln -s ttyUSB0 /etc/udev/devices/pilot > > syncing with pilot does not work as a normal user for me and only as root. If I put a file in > /etc/udev/permissions.d/new.permissions and change pilot to permissions of > 0666. Should it override 50-udev.permissions? Also have a look at: http://fcp.homelinux.org/modules/wffaq/article.php?t=11 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 26 13:18:51 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:18:51 +0100 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126130808.5636182b.huw-l@moving-picture.com> References: <20041115172911.D7D65765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <20041115191143.GD26824@redhat.com> <20041119113943.27D6A765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <200411190810.13959.loony@loonybin.org> <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126130808.5636182b.huw-l@moving-picture.com> Message-ID: <20041126131857.9AFFE75358@mail.figaro.fr> Huw Lynes: > report it to nvidia. They are the only people who are going to be able to tell > if this crash has anything to do with their driver. yes, i does it at the Moment. So maybe it gets solved. I will tell the List, if wished, the Results. Thankx. Greetings Frank From alan at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 13:31:09 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 08:31:09 -0500 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126124438.2063475358@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041119131916.657D5765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> <1101471928.2813.9.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041126124438.2063475358@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <20041126133109.GE17416@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 26, 2004 at 01:44:33PM +0100, Frank wrote: > besides, what is buggy in your Eys ? Iam very content with thr NVidia > one ... why you must rewrite a agp driver while this one still exists > from the Vendor itself ? If you are content with the Nvidia one then be content with the fact it crashes your machine. Most serious users have different views about such things. You should report your bug to Nvidia however, they may well be interested in fixing it From alan at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 13:32:25 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 08:32:25 -0500 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126124857.GB5173@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100890704.2683.1.camel@kyrre> <1100891537.14514.1.camel@ricardo.veguilla.net> <1100893299.2683.9.camel@kyrre> <20041119231612.933CB765AF@mail.figaro.fr> <1100909862.8282.2.camel@eliwood> <20041120173023.99ABE76614@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126115319.5D9DA75358@mail.figaro.fr> <1101471928.2813.9.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <20041126124438.2063475358@mail.figaro.fr> <20041126124857.GB5173@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041126133225.GF17416@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 26, 2004 at 01:48:57PM +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > well have you filed a bug about the linux one being slower? (I find it hard > to imagine an agp driver being slower other than initial hw setup, which for > sure can be fixed). Do provide details about the exact hw you have (eg which > agp chipset etc etc). Actually ours is slightly slower because Nvidia pull pages out of the gart cache them, fill them, flush cache and put them back into the gart. Thats one trick we don't yet do. Alan From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Fri Nov 26 13:54:22 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:54:22 -0600 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126130808.5636182b.huw-l@moving-picture.com> Message-ID: <008801c4d3bf$723d97f0$4601a8c0@C515816A> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Huw Lynes > Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:08 AM > To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core > Subject: Re: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? > > On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:53:13 +0100 > Frank wrote: > > > Some more Kernel Crash Bug Report snipset: > > > > for recal: if i simple reboot or halt the Fedora3 Maschine the Linux > > Kernle crashs ... by using the NVidia AGP Driver instead the Linux one > > > > using the latest Kernel 2.6.9-1.681_FC3 > > > report it to nvidia. They are the only people who are going to be able to > tell > if this crash has anything to do with their driver. > > > -- If nvidia supplies the driver to linux then you may have success in this route, but if they do not their answer will be "we don't support linux and if there is a problem report to the organization that wrote the driver" or it doesn't occur on windoze. From harald at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 13:56:55 2004 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:56:55 +0100 Subject: Requests for FC4 In-Reply-To: <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> References: <200411151808.iAFI8C529704@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu> <1100555598.7914.13.camel@cobra.ivg2.net> Message-ID: <41A73627.2010506@redhat.com> Ivan Gyurdiev wrote: > - https links in gnome opening in the browser - > it's so annoying to cut and paste bugzilla links > (bugzilla filed, not fixed) run once: $ gnome-default-applications-properties $ rpm -qf $(which gnome-default-applications-properties ) control-center-2.8.0-12 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mlauterbach at mail.wtamu.edu Fri Nov 26 14:08:48 2004 From: mlauterbach at mail.wtamu.edu (Matthew E. Lauterbach) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 08:08:48 -0600 Subject: missing posts In-Reply-To: <1101460453.19141.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101375495.13352.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101383855.5077.5.camel@mobile01> <1101460453.19141.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101478128.5077.12.camel@mobile01> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 09:14 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 05:57 -0600, Matthew E. Lauterbach wrote: > > Just to cover the obvious, you do know that you have to be subscribed to > > the list to post to it, Nate? > > He'd have received a bounce if he'd tried to post while unsubscribed, > which would have explained the problem. > That's funny. I don't. From dwmw2 at infradead.org Fri Nov 26 14:20:45 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:20:45 +0000 Subject: missing posts In-Reply-To: <1101478128.5077.12.camel@mobile01> References: <1101375495.13352.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101383855.5077.5.camel@mobile01> <1101460453.19141.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101478128.5077.12.camel@mobile01> Message-ID: <1101478845.8191.9546.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 08:08 -0600, Matthew E. Lauterbach wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 09:14 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > > He'd have received a bounce if he'd tried to post while unsubscribed, > > which would have explained the problem. > > > That's funny. I don't. And not just because you are actually subscribed? That's odd. I do get notification when I post to other fedora-* lists to which I'm not subscribed. -- dwmw2 From harald at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 14:25:01 2004 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:25:01 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> Message-ID: <41A73CBD.4000703@redhat.com> Avi Alkalay wrote: > But personaly, I?m not really sure FC3 (not just Linux) is ready for, > say, my mother to use. And she does only browsing, e-mail and > messenger. She is already using Firefox on Windows though. So "using" Linux should be no problem for her, because "she does only browsing, e-mail and messenger", which FC3 can do just fine. "Installing and Configuration" would be a problem. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From harald at redhat.com Fri Nov 26 14:26:53 2004 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:26:53 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> <1100633253.2682.5.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <41A73D2D.5010907@redhat.com> Avi Alkalay wrote: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:27:33 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > wrote: > >>On the server side things are looking better - as far as i can see, >>Linux is often the preferred platform here for developers to develop on, >>simply because it is the most widespread. > > > Unfortunatelly this is not true. I worked with several Windows > developers that were starting projects on Linux, and they couldn't > wait for the day they'll go back to Windows IDEs. Linux is a > wonderfull platform for developers as long as they have that > hacker-spirit, as we have :-). Linux drawbacks for developers are too > much configuration files to edit while deploying their software, like > add user access to tty on /etc/security/console.perms, or simply > activating a needed Apache module for their CGI. Oh, and configuration > files location and format differ from distro to distro, so all > deployments must be done by hand, with a human brain, and almost not > automations (they usally don't know sed, perl, rpm, etc, and probably > will not learn it). Also, the FHS is wonderful, but they don't know > it, so they ask "why /etc, why /bin, why /usr/bin ?". > > Microsoft's most killer apps are their IDEs and development > frameworks. Because they know how strategic is to have the developers > (killer and business apps) working for them. Did you show them kdevelop?? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From avibrazil at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 14:34:30 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:34:30 -0300 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <41A73CBD.4000703@redhat.com> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> <41A73CBD.4000703@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:25:01 +0100, Harald Hoyer wrote: > Avi Alkalay wrote: > > But personaly, I?m not really sure FC3 (not just Linux) is ready for, > > say, my mother to use. And she does only browsing, e-mail and > > messenger. She is already using Firefox on Windows though. > > So "using" Linux should be no problem for her, because "she does only browsing, > e-mail and messenger", which FC3 can do just fine. > "Installing and Configuration" would be a problem. I tried, really, but its not that easy... There are some annoying details about usability..... I also tryied to put Thunderbird instead of OutLook. My father used it for a while, and he liked the anti-spam features (after learning how to use it). But after a week or so he asked me if he can go back to Outlook, also because of some usability issues. Firefox is OK and he's still using it. He find it a bit slower than IE though. Regards, Avi From pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to Fri Nov 26 14:40:02 2004 From: pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to (Paul Iadonisi) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:40:02 -0500 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <008801c4d3bf$723d97f0$4601a8c0@C515816A> References: <008801c4d3bf$723d97f0$4601a8c0@C515816A> Message-ID: <1101480002.13550.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 07:54 -0600, Otto Haliburton wrote: [snip] > If nvidia supplies the driver to linux then you may have success in this > route, but if they do not their answer will be "we don't support linux and > if there is a problem report to the organization that wrote the driver" or > it doesn't occur on windoze. And what exactly is your point? This is precisely what people are being instructed to do. Report problems with the 'nvidia' driver to nVidia, Inc. Report problems with the 'nv' driver to http://bugzilla.redhat.com, or in many cases http://bugzilla.freedesktop.org. PS: Sorry if I'm a little curt. I'm just getting fricken' fed up with people coming to this and other lists and bitching about Red Hat not taking responsibility for other vendors' problems (nVidia, VMware, References: <1101375495.13352.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101383855.5077.5.camel@mobile01> <1101460453.19141.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101478128.5077.12.camel@mobile01> <1101478845.8191.9546.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101480389.5077.15.camel@mobile01> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 14:20 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 08:08 -0600, Matthew E. Lauterbach wrote: > > On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 09:14 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > > > He'd have received a bounce if he'd tried to post while unsubscribed, > > > which would have explained the problem. > > > > > That's funny. I don't. > > And not just because you are actually subscribed? That's odd. I do get > notification when I post to other fedora-* lists to which I'm not > subscribed. > I've tried posting to fedora-list at redhat.com from this email address (which has previously been a member of that list) and from my gmail account (which has never been a member of that list). How long does it take you to receive the bounce? From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Fri Nov 26 14:51:26 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 08:51:26 -0600 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1101480002.13550.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> References: <008801c4d3bf$723d97f0$4601a8c0@C515816A> <1101480002.13550.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: <1101480686.4724.4.camel@c515816-a> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 09:40 -0500, Paul Iadonisi wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 07:54 -0600, Otto Haliburton wrote: > > [snip] > > > If nvidia supplies the driver to linux then you may have success in this > > route, but if they do not their answer will be "we don't support linux and > > if there is a problem report to the organization that wrote the driver" or > > it doesn't occur on windoze. > > And what exactly is your point? This is precisely what people are > being instructed to do. Report problems with the 'nvidia' driver to > nVidia, Inc. Report problems with the 'nv' driver to > http://bugzilla.redhat.com, or in many cases > http://bugzilla.freedesktop.org. > > PS: Sorry if I'm a little curt. I'm just getting fricken' fed up with > people coming to this and other lists and bitching about Red Hat not > taking responsibility for other vendors' problems (nVidia, VMware, > > -- my problem is that people are being instructed to go to nvidia and report a problem that they won't respond to. You are a daydreamer if you think that if this driver is not theirs then they will respond, if they haven't written a linux driver your complaint is going into the bit bucket. The second part of this is if the problem is not occuring in windoze then what makes you think that it is a problem with nvidia driver and that you need to take a deeper look at what is happening in linux. You always get these tyype responses from a simple let's investigate the problem as a linux problem and come up with the facts to present to nvidia!!!!!! From avibrazil at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 14:57:15 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:57:15 -0300 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <41A73D2D.5010907@redhat.com> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> <1100633253.2682.5.camel@kyrre> <41A73D2D.5010907@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:26:53 +0100, Harald Hoyer wrote: > Avi Alkalay wrote: > > > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:27:33 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > > wrote: > > > >>On the server side things are looking better - as far as i can see, > >>Linux is often the preferred platform here for developers to develop on, > >>simply because it is the most widespread. > > > > > > Unfortunatelly this is not true. I worked with several Windows > > developers that were starting projects on Linux, and they couldn't > > wait for the day they'll go back to Windows IDEs. Linux is a > > wonderfull platform for developers as long as they have that > > hacker-spirit, as we have :-). Linux drawbacks for developers are too > > much configuration files to edit while deploying their software, like > > add user access to tty on /etc/security/console.perms, or simply > > activating a needed Apache module for their CGI. Oh, and configuration > > files location and format differ from distro to distro, so all > > deployments must be done by hand, with a human brain, and almost not > > automations (they usally don't know sed, perl, rpm, etc, and probably > > will not learn it). Also, the FHS is wonderful, but they don't know > > it, so they ask "why /etc, why /bin, why /usr/bin ?". > > > > Microsoft's most killer apps are their IDEs and development > > frameworks. Because they know how strategic is to have the developers > > (killer and business apps) working for them. > > Did you show them kdevelop?? Yes, and they don't really like it, compared to MS' tools. I use KDeveloper. It is so so... has some annoying usability bugs. To manage open source autoconfig source packages is a huge chalenge for KDeveloper. The most difficult part is packaging and deployment. Windows developers don't know how to integrate their (killer) apps into the OS. They are not aware of the FHS, they don't know how to RPMize, every distribution has different approaches to /etc/sysconfig, /etc/security stuff, etc. So the final experience is: "This Linux stuff, too confusing and it doesn't work". Just my impressions from the market and commercial development ecosystem.... Regards, Avi From dwmw2 at infradead.org Fri Nov 26 15:02:47 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:02:47 +0000 Subject: missing posts In-Reply-To: <1101480389.5077.15.camel@mobile01> References: <1101375495.13352.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101383855.5077.5.camel@mobile01> <1101460453.19141.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101478128.5077.12.camel@mobile01> <1101478845.8191.9546.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1101480389.5077.15.camel@mobile01> Message-ID: <1101481367.21698.4.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 08:46 -0600, Matthew E. Lauterbach wrote: > I've tried posting to fedora-list at redhat.com from this email address > (which has previously been a member of that list) and from my gmail > account (which has never been a member of that list). How long does it > take you to receive the bounce? About 20 seconds (the outgoing and incoming servers in this case are in different timezones, but both use NTP): 2004-11-26 09:53:18 1CXhTJ-0004Mh-0u <= dwmw2 at infradead.org H=([172.16.18.64]) [213.86.99.236] P=esmtpsa X=TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256 A=cram:dwmw2 S=664 id=1101480793.8191.9570.camel at hades.cambridge.redhat.com 2004-11-26 09:53:20 1CXhTJ-0004Mh-0u => fedora-test-list at redhat.com R=lookuphost T=remote_smtp H=mx3.redhat.com [66.187.233.32] C="250 2.0.0 iAQErINb028556 Message accepted for delivery" 2004-11-26 14:53:37 1CXhTc-0002ky-LG <= fedora-test-list-bounces at redhat.com H=hormel.redhat.com [209.132.177.30] P=esmtp S=1876 id=mailman.8458.1101480807.3257.fedora-test-list at redhat.com 2004-11-26 14:53:38 1CXhTc-0002ky-LG => dwmw2 at baythorne.infradead.org R=lookuphost T=remote_smtp H=baythorne.ipv6.infradead.org [2001:8b0:10b:1::1] X=TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256 C="250 OK id=1CXhTZ-0008DW-E6" -- dwmw2 From avibrazil at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 15:04:55 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:04:55 -0300 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <1100593788l.3540l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <32799.81.191.130.121.1100603593.squirrel@solution-forge.net> <1100633253.2682.5.camel@kyrre> <41A73D2D.5010907@redhat.com> Message-ID: I wrote a HOWTO some time ago to help developers find their way. http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HighQuality-Apps-HOWTO/ http://avi.alkalay.net/linux/docs/HighQuality/ (better layout) Regards, Avi On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:57:15 -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:26:53 +0100, Harald Hoyer wrote: > > > > Avi Alkalay wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:27:33 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > > > wrote: > > > > > >>On the server side things are looking better - as far as i can see, > > >>Linux is often the preferred platform here for developers to develop on, > > >>simply because it is the most widespread. > > > > > > > > > Unfortunatelly this is not true. I worked with several Windows > > > developers that were starting projects on Linux, and they couldn't > > > wait for the day they'll go back to Windows IDEs. Linux is a > > > wonderfull platform for developers as long as they have that > > > hacker-spirit, as we have :-). Linux drawbacks for developers are too > > > much configuration files to edit while deploying their software, like > > > add user access to tty on /etc/security/console.perms, or simply > > > activating a needed Apache module for their CGI. Oh, and configuration > > > files location and format differ from distro to distro, so all > > > deployments must be done by hand, with a human brain, and almost not > > > automations (they usally don't know sed, perl, rpm, etc, and probably > > > will not learn it). Also, the FHS is wonderful, but they don't know > > > it, so they ask "why /etc, why /bin, why /usr/bin ?". > > > > > > Microsoft's most killer apps are their IDEs and development > > > frameworks. Because they know how strategic is to have the developers > > > (killer and business apps) working for them. > > > > Did you show them kdevelop?? > > > Yes, and they don't really like it, compared to MS' tools. > I use KDeveloper. It is so so... has some annoying usability bugs. > To manage open source autoconfig source packages is a huge chalenge > for KDeveloper. > > The most difficult part is packaging and deployment. > Windows developers don't know how to integrate their (killer) apps > into the OS. They are not aware of the FHS, they don't know how to > RPMize, every distribution has different approaches to /etc/sysconfig, > /etc/security stuff, etc. So the final experience is: "This Linux > stuff, too confusing and it doesn't work". > > Just my impressions from the market and commercial development ecosystem.... > > Regards, > Avi > From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Fri Nov 26 15:08:13 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:08:13 +0100 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1101480686.4724.4.camel@c515816-a>; from ottohaliburton@comcast.net on Fri, Nov 26, 2004 at 08:51:26AM -0600 References: <008801c4d3bf$723d97f0$4601a8c0@C515816A> <1101480002.13550.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1101480686.4724.4.camel@c515816-a> Message-ID: <20041126160813.A29177@ryoko.camperquake.de> On Fri, Nov 26, 2004 at 08:51:26AM -0600, Otto Haliburton wrote: > my problem is that people are being instructed to go to nvidia and > report a problem that they won't respond to. nvidia wrote the software in question, nvidia has to debug it. End of story. From pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to Fri Nov 26 15:10:56 2004 From: pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to (Paul Iadonisi) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:10:56 -0500 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1101480686.4724.4.camel@c515816-a> References: <008801c4d3bf$723d97f0$4601a8c0@C515816A> <1101480002.13550.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1101480686.4724.4.camel@c515816-a> Message-ID: <1101481856.13550.15.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 08:51 -0600, Otto Haliburton wrote: [snip] > my problem is that people are being instructed to go to nvidia and > report a problem that they won't respond to. You are a daydreamer if > you think that if this driver is not theirs then they will respond, if > they haven't written a linux driver your complaint is going into the bit > bucket. The second part of this is if the problem is not occuring in > windoze then what makes you think that it is a problem with nvidia > driver and that you need to take a deeper look at what is happening in > linux. You always get these tyype responses from a simple let's > investigate the problem as a linux problem and come up with the facts to > present to nvidia!!!!!! Read up a little on the 'tainted' bit in the kernel. It was implemented for a reason, and binary-only vendors are (or should be) 100% aware of it, and its purpose. Once a non-GPL compliant component is loaded into the kernel, ALL bets are off. Period. End of story. There's no telling what a closed source binary module will do to internal structures in the kernel. That's true for GPLed code, too, but in that case, it's reasonably debuggable by the kernel developers. That tainted bit is there so the kernel developers can take a look at an Oops, see the tainted bit is set, and dump the report into the bit bucket. Once that bit is set, it's time to go to the providers of those binary only kernel components. No linux kernel developer whom I know of will waste any of his valuable time investigating. The only fact(s) that I know of that you can provide to nVidia is your kernel version / distribution release and the Oops (or whatever other problem anyone's having). -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Fri Nov 26 15:25:49 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:25:49 -0600 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126160813.A29177@ryoko.camperquake.de> References: <008801c4d3bf$723d97f0$4601a8c0@C515816A> <1101480002.13550.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1101480686.4724.4.camel@c515816-a> <20041126160813.A29177@ryoko.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <1101482749.4724.13.camel@c515816-a> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 16:08 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > On Fri, Nov 26, 2004 at 08:51:26AM -0600, Otto Haliburton wrote: > > > my problem is that people are being instructed to go to nvidia and > > report a problem that they won't respond to. > > nvidia wrote the software in question, nvidia has to debug it. > End of story. > -- very strong statement. goood luck!!!!!! Otto Haliburton From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Fri Nov 26 15:24:07 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:24:07 -0600 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1101481856.13550.15.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> References: <008801c4d3bf$723d97f0$4601a8c0@C515816A> <1101480002.13550.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1101480686.4724.4.camel@c515816-a> <1101481856.13550.15.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> Message-ID: <1101482647.4724.11.camel@c515816-a> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 10:10 -0500, Paul Iadonisi wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 08:51 -0600, Otto Haliburton wrote: > > [snip] > > > my problem is that people are being instructed to go to nvidia and > > report a problem that they won't respond to. You are a daydreamer if > > you think that if this driver is not theirs then they will respond, if > > they haven't written a linux driver your complaint is going into the bit > > bucket. The second part of this is if the problem is not occuring in > > windoze then what makes you think that it is a problem with nvidia > > driver and that you need to take a deeper look at what is happening in > > linux. You always get these tyype responses from a simple let's > > investigate the problem as a linux problem and come up with the facts to > > present to nvidia!!!!!! > > Read up a little on the 'tainted' bit in the kernel. It was > implemented for a reason, and binary-only vendors are (or should be) > 100% aware of it, and its purpose. Once a non-GPL compliant component > is loaded into the kernel, ALL bets are off. Period. End of story. > There's no telling what a closed source binary module will do to > internal structures in the kernel. That's true for GPLed code, too, but > in that case, it's reasonably debuggable by the kernel developers. > That tainted bit is there so the kernel developers can take a look at > an Oops, see the tainted bit is set, and dump the report into the bit > bucket. Once that bit is set, it's time to go to the providers of those > binary only kernel components. No linux kernel developer whom I know of > will waste any of his valuable time investigating. The only fact(s) > that I know of that you can provide to nVidia is your kernel version / > distribution release and the Oops (or whatever other problem anyone's > having). > -- > -Paul Iadonisi > Senior System Administrator > Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist > Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. > GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets > -- that solves the problem for me and that is what i'm interested in knowing. That was my problem, cause i wasn't sure that nvidia supplied the driver, but if they did then they need to fix it. That is all i'm saying. Most of the suppliers will give you the jerk around about complaints that you have from a linux system, but say we have supplied a package but we don't really support it. So as I said "if nvidia supplied..." then you might succeed, but otherwise seek other means. Otto Haliburton From pbruna at linuxcenterla.com Fri Nov 26 15:26:42 2004 From: pbruna at linuxcenterla.com (Patricio Bruna V.) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:26:42 -0300 Subject: X/GDM steps Message-ID: <1101482802.3492.24.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Hi, im trying to authenticate my users against a LDAP server (eDirectory) but GDM does not let me in. If log in a console (init 3) a then do startx it works ok. So im wondering what are the steps when i login in gdm? thx -- Patricio Bruna http://www.linuxcenterla.com Ingeniero de Proyectos Mariano S?nchez Fontecilla 310, piso 2 Red Hat Certified Engineer Las Condes, Santiago - CHILE Linux Center Latinoamerica Fono: +56 2 2745000, Fax : +56 22747075 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje est? firmada digitalmente URL: From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 26 15:41:23 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:41:23 +0100 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1101482749.4724.13.camel@c515816-a> References: <008801c4d3bf$723d97f0$4601a8c0@C515816A> <1101480002.13550.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1101480686.4724.4.camel@c515816-a> <20041126160813.A29177@ryoko.camperquake.de> <1101482749.4724.13.camel@c515816-a> Message-ID: <20041126154130.31C2075358@mail.figaro.fr> I dont no exactly what i now have to think. A Kernel Crash is for me OS related. And since iam use Linux many Years i was really irritated looking at Kernel crashes, getting Problems with my Databases unmounted Filesystems and so on. I have send NVidia a Bugreport too. I dont can believe that they Support there Linux Drivers such less, as i can read here. Hopefully they can optimizing there Drivers better, as they are the Vendor. Greetings Frank From ottohaliburton at comcast.net Fri Nov 26 15:51:38 2004 From: ottohaliburton at comcast.net (Otto Haliburton) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:51:38 -0600 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <20041126154130.31C2075358@mail.figaro.fr> References: <008801c4d3bf$723d97f0$4601a8c0@C515816A> <1101480002.13550.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1101480686.4724.4.camel@c515816-a> <20041126160813.A29177@ryoko.camperquake.de> <1101482749.4724.13.camel@c515816-a> <20041126154130.31C2075358@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: <1101484298.4724.16.camel@c515816-a> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 16:41 +0100, Frank wrote: > I dont no exactly what i now have to think. A Kernel Crash is for me OS > related. And since iam use Linux many Years i was really irritated > looking at Kernel crashes, getting Problems with my Databases unmounted > Filesystems and so on. I have send NVidia a Bugreport too. I dont can > believe that they Support there Linux Drivers such less, as i can read > here. Hopefully they can optimizing there Drivers better, as they are > the Vendor. > > Greetings Frank > for sure, I went to the nvidia sight and they have some drivers posted for 11/5/2004, maybe these address the issues but I don't know, they also have a forum that might be a place to bring up these issues with the driver. From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 26 15:49:09 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:49:09 +0100 Subject: OT: Help Kyrre with his LDAP authentification headatches :) In-Reply-To: <1101420757.3854.5.camel@kyrre> References: <1101419354.3666.12.camel@kyrre> <1101420757.3854.5.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1101484149.2686.6.camel@kyrre> tor, 25.11.2004 kl. 23.12 skrev Kyrre Ness Sjobak: > tor, 25.11.2004 kl. 22.49 skrev Kyrre Ness Sjobak: > > After reading to many pages on screen and on dead wood, asking (with no > > results) on forums, never receiving sign-up confirmation for the > > padl.com pamldap list, getting my post rejected at other LDAP mailing > > lists, and generally banging my head against the monitor for way to much > > time, i am hoping for a merciful harbor here. Please? If for nothing > > else, to save the forests from my printer? > > > > I am trying to set up a login-system based on LDAP - with a Debian > > (sarge) box as LDAP (and NFS) server, and Fedora Core 3 machines as > > clients. > > > > So far, no luck. (not for 2 months...). After finally getting the server > > to *start*, and adding what i (think is) an appropriate directory basic > > layout using phpldapadmin (running on an apache server on the same box), > > i still can't login. > > > > If i try to login (using su - *username*) from root, all i get is "user > > does not exist". I know the client is okay - if i direct it to an > > (older) ldap-running box, it works mountainously. > > > > I have a structure where all the user accounts are put in > > ou=People,dc=valler,dc=vgs,dc=no (as "PosixAccount" and "PosixGroup" > > according to phpldapadmin). This does work on the before mentioned box > > (if i have "copied" the setup right using gq to read it, and > > phpldapadmin to edit the new servers directory.) > > > > If i try to connect to the server using directory administrator, I can > > see all users/groups. Trying to change the user password gives an error, > > and if i try to create a new user i get "object class violation". > > > > Anybody who can help me? I am quite inexperienced when it comes to LDAP, > > and does now think i have spent way to many hours reading dead threes/on > > screen documentation of varying quality and relevance. > > > > I shall post any material you ask for. > > > > Kyrre Ness Sj?b?k > > Sorry for answering myself, but comparing the ldiff-files: > > in both i have a structure up to ou=People,dc=valler,dc=vgs,dc=no > > But in the working one, there is a > "cn=Users,ou=People,dc=valler,dc=vgs,dc=no" > in which all the users are placed. The groups are placed directly on > People. > > On the non-functional server, both users and groups are placed directly > on People. > > "cn=Users,ou=People,dc=valler,dc=vgs,dc=no" seems to be the "primary > group" for all users (which i know is correct). It is at least a > "posixGroup" objectClass. > > I hope i figured it out! Isn't it typical, after two months of > headbanging, you post a desperate mail, and then the solution is there, > 10 minutes later... > > Kyrre Hmm... Worked. I don't have a clue why, but putting it there worked. Yuhu! Now i only have to figure out indexing and why directory administrator won't work... Anybody know about a good web(min) based LDAP server interface, which could let me create a huge batch of users/w. populated homedirs automagically? I have tried to use the skolelinux (norwegian school distro) webmin ldap module, but without luck... Kyrre From symbiont at berlios.de Fri Nov 26 15:56:53 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:56:53 +0800 Subject: Xinerama Auto-switcher Thingy Using Kudzu Message-ID: <200411262356.57555.symbiont@berlios.de> Hi all: Hacked this piece a few years ago. Now, updated to xorg.conf. Haven't searched the internet, but it's probably already been done somewhere. Since X.org doesn't have an auto-switcher mechanism I just hack a kudzu DDC probe in py and then switch config based on that. Config xinerama (or clone or whatever) with two monitors connected to your laptop and then save it as xorg.conf.multi. Oh, save the single screen config to xorg.conf.single first. Then, run gorama. Simple thing really. Someday it'll be trash since Xorg will do it. (Maybe it does it now and I'll be really embarassed.) BTW, to solve the problem where you shutdown with two monitors and you boot up with single, put the call to gorama in your /etc/rc.d/rc.local. If you wonder where to put it, I threw it in /usr/local/sbin, for fun, but you can put it anywhere. have fun, -- -jeff -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gorama Type: application/x-python Size: 1637 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Frank at lists.sytes.net Fri Nov 26 16:11:32 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:11:32 +0100 Subject: Kernel Crashs - interessting ? In-Reply-To: <1101484298.4724.16.camel@c515816-a> References: <008801c4d3bf$723d97f0$4601a8c0@C515816A> <1101480002.13550.5.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> <1101480686.4724.4.camel@c515816-a> <20041126160813.A29177@ryoko.camperquake.de> <1101482749.4724.13.camel@c515816-a> <20041126154130.31C2075358@mail.figaro.fr> <1101484298.4724.16.camel@c515816-a> Message-ID: <20041126161138.003B375358@mail.figaro.fr> Otto Haliburton: > On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 16:41 +0100, Frank wrote: > > I dont no exactly what i now have to think. A Kernel Crash is for me OS > > related. And since iam use Linux many Years i was really irritated > > looking at Kernel crashes, getting Problems with my Databases unmounted > > Filesystems and so on. I have send NVidia a Bugreport too. I dont can > > believe that they Support there Linux Drivers such less, as i can read > > here. Hopefully they can optimizing there Drivers better, as they are > > the Vendor. > > > > Greetings Frank > > > for sure, I went to the nvidia sight and they have some drivers posted > for 11/5/2004, these ones i use > maybe these address the issues but I don't know, they > also have a forum that might be a place to bring up these issues with > the driver. as i looked over before i doesnt found Solutions for the Kernel Crash Problems. So descripted them the Problem as they are the Vendor. Greetings Frank From mike at navi.cx Fri Nov 26 17:44:44 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:44:44 +0000 Subject: FC3 memory usage problem References: <200411251807.59483.loony@loonybin.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:07:59 -0500, Peter Arremann wrote: > I just upgraded my laptop from FC1 to FC3 a few days ago and since then I'm > seeing terrible memory usages. The laptop has 1GB plus 1GB swap but I've ran > it out of memory by simply using openoffice, mozilla and a few other smaller > kde apps. Nothing similar has ever happened to me before and I checked > everything I can come up with without result. This does seem to be a problem. SpamAssassin in particular launches 5 copies of itself, each using ~8mb of memory. Killing them all releases about a third of the RAM in use on my machine typically. I'm planning on a bugzilla session maybe sometime tonight or this weekend where I file all the random stuff like this ... BTW there is a known bug (!) in Firefox/Mozilla that means it leaks memory when closing tabs, ie it doesn't actually appear to free any memory at all (or at least the heap may be fragmented). Closing and restarting Firefox can normally release a lot of memory. From kms at passback.co.uk Fri Nov 26 18:00:46 2004 From: kms at passback.co.uk (Keith Sharp) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:00:46 +0000 Subject: OT: Help Kyrre with his LDAP authentification headatches :) In-Reply-To: <1101484149.2686.6.camel@kyrre> References: <1101419354.3666.12.camel@kyrre> <1101420757.3854.5.camel@kyrre> <1101484149.2686.6.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1101492046.20276.21.camel@animal> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 16:49 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > Hmm... Worked. I don't have a clue why, but putting it there worked. > Yuhu! > > Now i only have to figure out indexing and why directory administrator > won't work... > > Anybody know about a good web(min) based LDAP server interface, which > could let me create a huge batch of users/w. populated homedirs > automagically? I have tried to use the skolelinux (norwegian school > distro) webmin ldap module, but without luck... For bulk data imports you should take the time to learn LDIF and the command line LDAP tools, in particular ldapadd and ldapsearch. I would recommend the O'Reilly "LDAP System Administration" book as a good starting point. Keith. From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Fri Nov 26 18:47:29 2004 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:47:29 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <41A73CBD.4000703@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200411261947.29373.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Friday 26 November 2004 15:34, Avi Alkalay wrote: > On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:25:01 +0100, Harald Hoyer wrote: > > Avi Alkalay wrote: > > > But personaly, I?m not really sure FC3 (not just Linux) is ready for, > > > say, my mother to use. And she does only browsing, e-mail and > > > messenger. She is already using Firefox on Windows though. > > > > So "using" Linux should be no problem for her, because "she does only > > browsing, e-mail and messenger", which FC3 can do just fine. > > "Installing and Configuration" would be a problem. > > I tried, really, but its not that easy... > There are some annoying details about usability..... > > I also tryied to put Thunderbird instead of OutLook. > My father used it for a while, and he liked the anti-spam features > (after learning how to use it). But after a week or so he asked me if > he can go back to Outlook, also because of some usability issues. Is usability probably mistaken for "used to"? Some people have learned to love bugs in software and get angry if they don't find the same stupid behaviour in other software. If people aren't willing to switch, even the best software cannot do much about it. -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann PS: Outlook and usability is IMO an oxymoron. From cpedersen at c-note.dk Fri Nov 26 18:53:00 2004 From: cpedersen at c-note.dk (Casper Pedersen) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:53:00 +0100 Subject: X/GDM steps In-Reply-To: <1101482802.3492.24.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1101482802.3492.24.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <1101495180.5600.6.camel@tuxdsk> Hi, First can you login via a login screen? - # getent passwd - is the user there - # id - still nothing? And remember to add the posixAccount aux class to the user (ConsoleOne - > find object -> right click -> extend object -> select posixAccount ... ) If this is with FC1 you'll need to have users local due something which is broken in the GDM configuration. Regards/Casper On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 12:26 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > Hi, im trying to authenticate my users against a LDAP server > (eDirectory) but GDM does not let me in. > > If log in a console (init 3) a then do startx it works ok. > So im wondering what are the steps when i login in gdm? > > thx > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nutello at sweetness.com Fri Nov 26 20:01:47 2004 From: nutello at sweetness.com (Rudi Chiarito) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:01:47 +0100 Subject: OT: Help Kyrre with his LDAP authentification headatches :) In-Reply-To: <1101484149.2686.6.camel@kyrre> References: <1101419354.3666.12.camel@kyrre> <1101420757.3854.5.camel@kyrre> <1101484149.2686.6.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <20041126200147.GG18096@server4.8080.it> On Fri, Nov 26, 2004 at 04:49:09PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > Anybody know about a good web(min) based LDAP server interface, which > could let me create a huge batch of users/w. populated homedirs Where does the list of user names, their account names and numeric uids come from? I need to authenticate users on Unix systems against a Windows NT (soon to be AD) domain. There is a LDAP directory that exports data about every user, but unfortunately that data doesn't include the attributes used by posixAccount. So I just set up a local LDAP server for POSIX account information. I use a simple Perl script that, given a list of accounts, looks up the email address account at mail.server in the "NT" LDAP directory. From the object found, I extract the last name, the full real name and the personID field (which happens to be unique for every user and I can thus reuse as a uid). From this information, I can create LDIF files with posixGroup and posixAccount/shadowAccount objects for each user, generating appropriate values for some fields (homeDirectory is set to /home/$username) or using default values for the others (the shadow password fields). OpenLDAP's command line tools will read the LDIF file to add/modify users. Clients are simply set up to get the account information from the local LDAP server and to validate passwords against the NT domain using pam_smb. -- Rudi From pbruna at linuxcenterla.com Fri Nov 26 20:26:26 2004 From: pbruna at linuxcenterla.com (Patricio Bruna V.) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:26:26 -0300 Subject: X/GDM steps In-Reply-To: <1101495180.5600.6.camel@tuxdsk> References: <1101482802.3492.24.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> <1101495180.5600.6.camel@tuxdsk> Message-ID: <1101500786.3546.8.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> El vie, 26-11-2004 a las 19:53 +0100, Casper Pedersen escribi?: > Hi, > > First can you login via a login screen? > - # getent passwd - is the user there yes, i can get the list, but i got ":" at the end of the line. when the user is local i get: "root:x:0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash" and when is ldap: "xbecerra:x:602:602:xbecerra:/home/xbecerra:" error? or is ok. > - # id - still nothing? its ok to. [root at localhost ~]# id xbecerra uid=602(xbecerra) gid=602 grupos=602 > And remember to add the posixAccount aux class to the user (ConsoleOne - > > find object -> right click -> extend object -> select > posixAccount ... ) thats checked to > > If this is with FC1 you'll need to have users local due something which > is broken in the GDM configuration. > Im using FC3 i guest its have the same problem, or it's not? will kdm work? greetings -- Patricio Bruna http://www.linuxcenterla.com Ingeniero de Proyectos Mariano S?nchez Fontecilla 310, piso 2 Red Hat Certified Engineer Las Condes, Santiago - CHILE Linux Center Latinoamerica Fono: +56 2 2745000, Fax : +56 22747075 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje est? firmada digitalmente URL: From pbruna at linuxcenterla.com Fri Nov 26 21:17:59 2004 From: pbruna at linuxcenterla.com (Patricio Bruna V.) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:17:59 -0300 Subject: XDM||GDM||KDM LDAP Auth Message-ID: <1101503879.3546.10.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> so i was googling about it, and found a lot of people having the same problem. So my question is when it will be fixed? -- Patricio Bruna http://www.linuxcenterla.com Ingeniero de Proyectos Mariano S?nchez Fontecilla 310, piso 2 Red Hat Certified Engineer Las Condes, Santiago - CHILE Linux Center Latinoamerica Fono: +56 2 2745000, Fax : +56 22747075 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje est? firmada digitalmente URL: From pbruna at linuxcenterla.com Fri Nov 26 21:41:33 2004 From: pbruna at linuxcenterla.com (Patricio Bruna V.) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:41:33 -0300 Subject: XDM||GDM||KDM LDAP Auth In-Reply-To: <1101503879.3546.10.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1101503879.3546.10.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <1101505294.3546.12.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> El vie, 26-11-2004 a las 18:17 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. escribi?: > so i was googling about it, and found a lot of people having the same > problem. > So my question is when it will be fixed? > So when i wrong i must addmit it, the problem was on the ldap server -- Patricio Bruna http://www.linuxcenterla.com Ingeniero de Proyectos Mariano S?nchez Fontecilla 310, piso 2 Red Hat Certified Engineer Las Condes, Santiago - CHILE Linux Center Latinoamerica Fono: +56 2 2745000, Fax : +56 22747075 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje est? firmada digitalmente URL: From cpedersen at c-note.dk Fri Nov 26 21:56:41 2004 From: cpedersen at c-note.dk (Casper Pedersen) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:56:41 +0100 Subject: XDM||GDM||KDM LDAP Auth In-Reply-To: <1101503879.3546.10.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> References: <1101503879.3546.10.camel@p.linuxcenter.cl> Message-ID: <1101506201.7063.6.camel@tuxdsk> It's a problem with your setup (I use openLDAP without any problems - and I reckon others also do). Make sure that you have a loginshell attribute on the user object. getent passwd will have to return something like: :x::::: Make sure that the loginshell attribute is set, check it with ldapsearch, as it could be a rights issue make sure that [public] or your ldapproxy user have rights to see it. Regards/Casper On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 18:17 -0300, Patricio Bruna V. wrote: > so i was googling about it, and found a lot of people having the same > problem. > So my question is when it will be fixed? > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Nov 26 22:35:03 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:35:03 -0500 Subject: sshd: it is permit to login with a Empty Password In-Reply-To: <1101462855.2440.4.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> References: <1101333793.2101.54.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> <1101372042.12289.15.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> <20041125160553.GA6332@jadzia.bu.edu> <1101462855.2440.4.camel@speedy.iagorubio.net> Message-ID: <20041126223503.GA21235@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Nov 26, 2004 at 10:54:16AM +0100, Iago Rubio wrote: > > > Put a non working shell as default for this user. > > > [root at igloo root]# useradd -s /sbin/nologin nopasswd > > That'll make it kind of hard for the user to get any work done, won't it? > You've got a big bunch of users in your system with no login shells, and > they get their work done. > Check your /etc/passwd. There's users and then there's users. :) Not wanting regular (human) user accounts to be allowed to work with empty passwords is a good precaution against accidents. (See , for an example of something that could happen.) Obviously your suggestion is good for system accounts. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From dwmw2 at infradead.org Sat Nov 27 00:49:02 2004 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:49:02 +0000 Subject: missing posts In-Reply-To: <1101480389.5077.15.camel@mobile01> References: <1101375495.13352.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101383855.5077.5.camel@mobile01> <1101460453.19141.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101478128.5077.12.camel@mobile01> <1101478845.8191.9546.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1101480389.5077.15.camel@mobile01> Message-ID: <1101516542.21273.4355.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 08:46 -0600, Matthew E. Lauterbach wrote: > I've tried posting to fedora-list at redhat.com from this email address > (which has previously been a member of that list) and from my gmail > account (which has never been a member of that list). How long does it > take you to receive the bounce? Bounces from mailman aren't actually sent as bounces -- they have a non-empty reverse-path. Could it be that your mail routing for the addresses in question are different? Can you receive _any_ mail from @redhat.com addresses to that address? The redhat.com domain is currently publishing a bogus SPF record which asks people to throw away valid mail. If anything in your receiving path is checking SPF, you should ask them to stop. -- dwmw2 From mlauterbach at mail.wtamu.edu Sat Nov 27 02:12:47 2004 From: mlauterbach at mail.wtamu.edu (Matthew E. Lauterbach) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:12:47 -0600 Subject: missing posts In-Reply-To: <1101516542.21273.4355.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> References: <1101375495.13352.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101383855.5077.5.camel@mobile01> <1101460453.19141.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101478128.5077.12.camel@mobile01> <1101478845.8191.9546.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> <1101480389.5077.15.camel@mobile01> <1101516542.21273.4355.camel@baythorne.infradead.org> Message-ID: <1101521567.9698.12.camel@mobile01> On Sat, 2004-11-27 at 00:49 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote: > Bounces from mailman aren't actually sent as bounces -- they have a > non-empty reverse-path. Could it be that your mail routing for the > addresses in question are different? Can you receive _any_ mail from > @redhat.com addresses to that address? The redhat.com domain is > currently publishing a bogus SPF record which asks people to throw away > valid mail. If anything in your receiving path is checking SPF, you > should ask them to stop. > The first time I tried was from this address from which I receive fedora-devel-list at redhat.com and amd64-list at redhat.com messages continually. I have also in the past used this address successfully to receive fedora-list at redhat.com and fedora-test-list at redhat.com messages. I have never had any problem with subscribing to, receiving from, posting to, or unsubscribing from any list. The only problem is not getting bounces when I am dumb and try to post to a list that I am not currently subscribed to. I thought this was standard behavior for the @redhat.com lists. I don't believe that our mail servers are checking SPF or doing any sort of spam blocking. I have no idea why I'm not getting them, but if you are receiving them it must be a problem somewhere on my end. I appreciate your willingness to help and explain even this trivial issue. I will check things out on my end, but I do not want to drag this thread further off-topic. Matthew E. Lauterbach From balay at fastmail.fm Sat Nov 27 03:23:06 2004 From: balay at fastmail.fm (Satish Balay) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:23:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: FC3 memory usage problem In-Reply-To: <200411251807.59483.loony@loonybin.org> References: <200411251807.59483.loony@loonybin.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Peter Arremann wrote: > I just upgraded my laptop from FC1 to FC3 a few days ago and since then I'm > seeing terrible memory usages. The laptop has 1GB plus 1GB swap I have similar config - laptop with 1G ram, 2G swap - and I notice the following (after logging out from X - and checking usage from VT-1) ---- # uname -srvp Linux 2.6.9-1.681_FC3 #1 Thu Nov 18 15:10:10 EST 2004 i686 # uptime 21:12:45 up 2 days, 10:43, 6 users, load average: 0.07, 0.42, 0.31 # free total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 1034568 813708 220860 0 246924 265168 -/+ buffers/cache: 301616 732952 # slabtop OBJS ACTIVE USE OBJ SIZE SLABS OBJ/SLAB CACHE SIZE NAME 258815 252624 97% 0.68K 51763 5 207052K ext3_inode_cache ---- (Don't remember the usage numbers for FC1) - perhaps this is where the memory usage is different between FC1/FC3? Satish From quarlewm at jmu.edu Fri Nov 26 21:56:50 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:56:50 -0500 Subject: APT repository problems with up2date In-Reply-To: <200406052123.i55LNUS19461@xos037.xos.nl> References: <200406052123.i55LNUS19461@xos037.xos.nl> Message-ID: <41A7A6A2.9070200@jmu.edu> Jos Vos wrote: > Hi, > > Before I start digging in the up2date code myself, maybe someone > can comment on this: > > I have a problem when using up2date up2date with my self-created > APT repositories. When updating, it complains about conflicting > files: it just thinks that a long list of directories that are > shared among packages conflict with each other. > > Apt-get itself (and synaptic) seems to work fine with the same > repository, only with up2date there is a problem. Also, up2date > with a yum repository of then same package set works fine, as > does yum itself. > > FWIW: I generate my APT repositories with --flat --bloat. Jos, I'm sorry that nobody on the Fedora developer's list has responded to your issue. Maybe we can get some conversation going now. I'm experiencing the same problems with the repositories at Planet CCRMA . However, both the Yum and Apt repositories at this site are showing these issues. Apparently Up2Date may be very specific in what it expects from a repository. Peace, William From balay at fastmail.fm Sat Nov 27 06:08:58 2004 From: balay at fastmail.fm (Satish Balay) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:08:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: FC3 memory usage problem In-Reply-To: References: <200411251807.59483.loony@loonybin.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Satish Balay wrote: > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Peter Arremann wrote: > > > I just upgraded my laptop from FC1 to FC3 a few days ago and since then I'm > > seeing terrible memory usages. The laptop has 1GB plus 1GB swap > > I have similar config - laptop with 1G ram, 2G swap - and I notice the > following (after logging out from X - and checking usage from VT-1) > > ---- > # uname -srvp > Linux 2.6.9-1.681_FC3 #1 Thu Nov 18 15:10:10 EST 2004 i686 > # uptime > 21:12:45 up 2 days, 10:43, 6 users, load average: 0.07, 0.42, 0.31 > # free > total used free shared buffers cached > Mem: 1034568 813708 220860 0 246924 265168 > -/+ buffers/cache: 301616 732952 > Swap: 2096440 0 2096440 > > # slabtop > OBJS ACTIVE USE OBJ SIZE SLABS OBJ/SLAB CACHE SIZE NAME > 258815 252624 97% 0.68K 51763 5 207052K ext3_inode_cache > > ---- > > (Don't remember the usage numbers for FC1) - perhaps this is where the > memory usage is different between FC1/FC3? Just want to add the following. I started a 'rpm --rebuild kernel.src.rpm' (with an active gnome desktop & mozilla - and at the end of the build - I have) # free total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 1034568 488668 545900 0 44296 272364 -/+ buffers/cache: 172008 862560 Swap: 2096440 176 2096264 # slabtop OBJS ACTIVE USE OBJ SIZE SLABS OBJ/SLAB CACHE SIZE NAME 2660 874 32% 0.68K 532 5 2128K ext3_inode_cache ---- So the kernel frees ext3_inode_cache memory once a big (high i/o usage?) job starts up. i.e the memory usage behavior looks ok to me. Satish From aleksey at nogin.org Sat Nov 27 06:41:01 2004 From: aleksey at nogin.org (Aleksey Nogin) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:41:01 -0800 Subject: APT repository problems with up2date In-Reply-To: <41A7A6A2.9070200@jmu.edu> References: <200406052123.i55LNUS19461@xos037.xos.nl> <41A7A6A2.9070200@jmu.edu> Message-ID: <41A8217D.10405@nogin.org> On 26.11.2004 13:56, William M. Quarles wrote: > Jos Vos wrote: [...] >> I have a problem when using up2date up2date with my self-created >> APT repositories. When updating, it complains about conflicting >> files: it just thinks that a long list of directories that are >> shared among packages conflict with each other. [...] > I'm experiencing the same problems with the repositories at Planet CCRMA > . There is a known problem with up2date complaining of "conflicts" on directories in packages from apt repositories - see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=106123 -- Aleksey Nogin Home Page: http://nogin.org/ E-Mail: nogin at cs.caltech.edu (office), aleksey at nogin.org (personal) Office: Jorgensen 70, tel: (626) 395-2907 From avibrazil at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 10:21:18 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:21:18 -0200 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <200411261947.29373.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <41A73CBD.4000703@redhat.com> <200411261947.29373.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:47:29 +0100, Ronny Buchmann wrote: > On Friday 26 November 2004 15:34, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > > > On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:25:01 +0100, Harald Hoyer wrote: > > > Avi Alkalay wrote: > > > > But personaly, I?m not really sure FC3 (not just Linux) is ready for, > > > > say, my mother to use. And she does only browsing, e-mail and > > > > messenger. She is already using Firefox on Windows though. > > > > > > So "using" Linux should be no problem for her, because "she does only > > > browsing, e-mail and messenger", which FC3 can do just fine. > > > "Installing and Configuration" would be a problem. > > > > I tried, really, but its not that easy... > > There are some annoying details about usability..... > > > > I also tryied to put Thunderbird instead of OutLook. > > My father used it for a while, and he liked the anti-spam features > > (after learning how to use it). But after a week or so he asked me if > > he can go back to Outlook, also because of some usability issues. > Is usability probably mistaken for "used to"? > > Some people have learned to love bugs in software and get angry if they don't > find the same stupid behaviour in other software. > If people aren't willing to switch, even the best software cannot do much > about it. Hummm..... Maybe yes, maybe no. It does not matter, because this is how the world is today. So if you want to change the software people use today, you have to accept this fact and use it as a starting point. Only functionality is not enough, because many commercial softwares really excel in usability confort. And I don't think a commercial software used by millions of people around the world, at home and at work (Outlook), still has usability bugs. It is pretty mature by now. In this case of my father, usability is not "used to", because I explained all the virus implications of using Outlook, and he used Thunderbird for several weeks. It was simply related to how Thunder organizes information, speed, etc. He finished saing "Don't worry about security, I have an anti-virus". Thunderbird is still beta... hopefully they'll improve it. I want to say that again because this is very important: Usability and Confort of use are not realted to software features (of course they must have it too), but to the speed things are renderer on the screen, super beautiful fonts, integration, no bugs on things related to drag'n'drop, and underlying widgets code, and most of all, people, psycologists, making tests with regular people on how they feel using certain software. So we need respectivelly excelent accelerated video drivers (I don't care if it is open source or not), good hinted fonts with a bytecode-enabled freetype, etc. Specially about fonts (it is way more relevant than most techies may think), those Tahoma and Verdana fonts were designed for confort and to look beautifull on the screen. Luxi Sans (Sans on FC), Bitstream Vera, and others available on the free world don't have their superior quality. I experienced regular desktop users migrating from W to L, and the first thing they want to customize is the fonts. Sans is too big, Vera is not well hinted, and anti-aliasing is bad for small sizes. About usability tests, Mozilla team probably studied IE usability a lot, and they worried about removing many menu items, and to mimic other aspects. So sometimes many options aren't good. For example, on KDE we have 3 editors that make the same functionality that Window's Notepad: Kedit, Kwrite and Kate. Confusing? Regards, Avi From buildsys at redhat.com Sat Nov 27 12:22:39 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 07:22:39 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041127 changes Message-ID: <200411271222.iARCMdK21734@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041127 --------------------------- system-config-date-1.7.13-1 --------------------------- * Fri Nov 26 2004 Nils Philippsen 1.7.13-1 - enable Gujarati and Tamil translations (#140881) From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Sat Nov 27 16:39:17 2004 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:39:17 +0100 Subject: Killer apps/"selling" points of FC and GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: References: <1100549287.28755.29.camel@kyrre> <200411261947.29373.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <200411271739.17273.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Saturday 27 November 2004 11:21, Avi Alkalay wrote: > softwares really excel in usability confort. And I don't think a > commercial software used by millions of people around the world, at > home and at work (Outlook), still has usability bugs. It is pretty > mature by now. Oh, it definitly has usability bugs. For example you cannot search in all address books at once. Auto-completion of email addresses sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. (There are some more, but I don't want to annoy the list with outlook bugs.) > In this case of my father, usability is not "used to", because I > explained all the virus implications of using Outlook, and he used Usability has not much to do with viruses. > Thunderbird for several weeks. It was simply related to how Thunder > organizes information, speed, etc. He finished saing "Don't worry > about security, I have an anti-virus". Thunderbird is still beta... > hopefully they'll improve it. > > I want to say that again because this is very important: > Usability and Confort of use are not realted to software features (of > course they must have it too), but to the speed things are renderer on > the screen, super beautiful fonts, integration, no bugs on things > related to drag'n'drop, and underlying widgets code, and most of all, > people, psycologists, making tests with regular people on how they > feel using certain software. I feel GNOME is much more usable than any variant of Windows. But continued working on usability is definitly an important part of future development. > Specially about fonts (it is way more relevant than most techies may > think), those Tahoma and Verdana fonts were designed for confort and > to look beautifull on the screen. Luxi Sans (Sans on FC), Bitstream > Vera, and others available on the free world don't have their superior > quality. I experienced regular desktop users migrating from W to L, > and the first thing they want to customize is the fonts. Sans is too > big, Vera is not well hinted, and anti-aliasing is bad for small > sizes. Always when I have to use Windows I get angry about the fonts (especially the fixed "system font" size coming from the Win3 era). I have currently (FC3) nothing to complain about Vera fonts. > About usability tests, Mozilla team probably studied IE usability a > lot, and they worried about removing many menu items, and to mimic > other aspects. So sometimes many options aren't good. For example, on > KDE we have 3 editors that make the same functionality that Window's > Notepad: Kedit, Kwrite and Kate. Confusing? Agreed. -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From russell at coker.com.au Sat Nov 27 19:20:17 2004 From: russell at coker.com.au (Russell Coker) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 06:20:17 +1100 Subject: Yum broken = no testing In-Reply-To: <1101455492.3667.4.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> References: <1101341887.8737.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101454826.4624.7.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> <1101455492.3667.4.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> Message-ID: <200411280620.21076.russell@coker.com.au> On Friday 26 November 2004 18:51, Sean Middleditch wrote: > > > so by that argument, if gtk had an api break then mozilla should work > > > around it, rather than making the fix occur in gtk? > > > > Yes. That's how things work in real world. > > No. No, it is not. In the toy development system world, maybe. In the > real world, major system libraries like GTK and Python remain ABI and > API stable. If a breakage does occur, the breakage is separated into a > new major version allowing both versions to be installed. GTK in fact > makes that guarantee, and that is one of its biggest selling points. In what world are APIs really stable? Some people who use an OS other than Linux have problems with shared object versions where several applications from the same vendor ship different versions of the same shared object that conflict. On that OS you were required (last time I programmed for it - which was fortunately a while ago) to rename the libc shared object if you wanted to have it dynamically linked into your applications. This meant that several applications from different vendors would have different versions of the libc which all came from the OS vendor! In the Linux world we are way better than that! > > As a developer you spend a significant time to work around bugs, API > > changes and things which don't behave as you expect them to do. > > That's not an excuse. That's a description of all that's wrong with the > world from a programmer's perspective. ;-) Bugs are going to happen, > but there is absolutely *no* reason for an API/ABI breakage, ever, > without at least versioning the break correctly. The real issue is, given that the API has broken and systems have broken as a result, what shall we do about it? Beta testers are very valuable. We don't want to burn them so badly that they give up testing! If we have to release a hacked-up version of an application to allow recovery from a broken ABI as an interim measure then that's not a problem IMHO. I think that the priority in this situation should be to get the testers' systems running properly again ASAP so that they can continue testing. There are probably already bugs in rawhide packages going undiscovered because the most dedicated testers have broken systems that can't be upgraded! -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/ Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 19:37:06 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:37:06 -0500 Subject: Yum broken = no testing In-Reply-To: <200411280620.21076.russell@coker.com.au> References: <1101341887.8737.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101454826.4624.7.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> <1101455492.3667.4.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <200411280620.21076.russell@coker.com.au> Message-ID: <604aa791041127113743aaa88c@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 06:20:17 +1100, Russell Coker wrote: > Beta testers are very valuable. We don't want to burn them so badly that they > give up testing! If we have to release a hacked-up version of an application > to allow recovery from a broken ABI as an interim measure then that's not a > problem IMHO. I think that the priority in this situation should be to get > the testers' systems running properly again ASAP so that they can continue > testing. As mentioned in this thread... ftp urls appearently work and there are ftp mirrors. Is this situation dire enough to demand a workaround with a tempory application level fix? Is the request for testers to use ftp mirrors for the time being beyond reason? > There are probably already bugs in rawhide packages going undiscovered because > the most dedicated testers have broken systems that can't be upgraded! I would dare say the most dedicated testers... have switched to ftp mirrors at this point. -jef"though you have to take the phrase 'most dedicated' when talking about rawhide users with a grain of salt.. they are more likely best described as most tenacous if not most stubborn. I don't think i'd call a bullrider who stays on the bull beyond the need time-limit for that round of the rodeo competition 'most dedicated'"spaeta From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 20:28:48 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:28:48 -0500 Subject: Please review this list of potentially missing .so symlinks. Message-ID: <604aa79104112712286ce8f0a6@mail.gmail.com> Back story: talking to che in #fedora-devel, and he came across the fact that libgnomebt.so symlink was not included and thus he was unable to build and link to libgnomebt. Che did a little digging and discovered a small error in the spec that left the symlink unpackaged. Appearently, to my great horror, rpm doesn't notice when symlinks go unpackaged and doesn't warn about it when building a package. Made me wonder if there were other missing .so symlinks. The idea: So that got me to thinking, is there a not so clever way for me to get a summary of potentially missing .so symlinks for a fully installed fc3 system so we can get these reported in one big push. So i did myself a full install, ran ldconfig and captured the output of ldconfig -p. I then parsed the output of ldconfig -p using a drop dead stupid shell script to get a list of candidate missing .so symlinks file locations based on the existance of .so.* in the same directory and compared that list to rpmdb-fedora to doublecheck those specific file locations were not in an available core package. The result: I have a list of 49 POTENTIALLY missing .so files from the fc3 package set. I stress potential because i know this was a very un-clever way to approach this, and I'm sure there are several special case situations that I'm misflagging with my script. For example, anything like libick-X.Y.so.Z will flags libick-X.Y.so as missing even if libick.so is there even though its not really a problem in most circumstances. But my goal was just to get the list down to something small enough to be human reviewable in a reasonable amount of time. Che has already gone over the list once, it was originally 78 or so potentially missing files. I'm sure there are false alarms in the list, but there are also some files that apear to both che and myself to be missing and filable as packaging bugs. There might be situations where the .so was delibrately left out that we are not aware of so I don't want to jump the gun and file bug reports without more review. For example libgnomebt.so and libgnome-window-settings.so jump out to me as real package errors if they were not delibrately left out. So please take a look at the list of potentially missing .so files below and comment on specific files that you think are definitely missing because of a packaging problem that impacts the ability to build and link the dynamic library. This was from a complete fc3 install, I haven't had a chance to do this with a full rawhide install yet. -jef ld-linux.so libamu.so libblkid.so libboost_date_time.so libboost_filesystem.so libboost_prg_exec_monitor.so libboost_python.so libboost_regex.so libboost_signals.so libboost_test_exec_monitor.so libboost_thread.so libboost_unit_test_framework.so libc.so libdw.so libFS.so libg2c.so libgcc_s.so libgcj.so libgfortranpreview.so libGLw.so libgmodule-1.2.so libgnarl-3.4.so libgnat-3.4.so libgnomebt.so libgnome-window-settings.so lib-gnu-java-awt-peer-gtk.so libgthread-1.2.so libhpojip.so liblber-2.2.so liblber.so libldap-2.2.so libldap_r-2.2.so libldap_r.so libmDNSResponder-0.9.6.so libNoVersion.so libnss_db.so libnuma.so libobjc.so lib-org-w3c-dom.so lib-org-xml-sax.so libparted-1.6.so libptal.so libpthread.so libpwdb.so libstdc++-libc6.1-1.so libstdc++-libc6.2-2.so libstdc++.so libsvn_swig_perl-1.so libsvn_swig_py-1.so From mike at navi.cx Sat Nov 27 21:27:33 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 21:27:33 +0000 Subject: Please review this list of potentially missing .so symlinks. References: <604aa79104112712286ce8f0a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:28:48 -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > ld-linux.so This isn't necessary, as it's not linked to in the normal fashion. Instead the full soname is encoded into the ELF headers at compile time. > libc.so libc is automatically linked by gcc. > libgcc_s.so This is also automatically linked in by gcc in certain circumstances. > libgcj.so I think the same is true of this. What that means is that you don't need unversioned symlinks as the toolchain picks the right version for you. > libgmodule-1.2.so Do you have the glib1.2 development package installed? If so then this does indeed look like an oversight. > lib-org-w3c-dom.so > lib-org-xml-sax.so > lib-gnu-java-awt-peer-gtk.so I think these are loaded by the GCJ classloading mechanism and aren't linked in the normal fashion. .6.so > libNoVersion.so This is a part of glibc and is probably a magic lib you don't normally need to -l link against. > libobjc.so Another implicitly linked runtime library, AFAIK. > libpthread.so > libstdc++-libc6.1-1.so > libstdc++-libc6.2-2.so > libstdc++.so These are usually implicitly linked as well, aren't they? No clue about the rest. Hope that helps (and that I'm accurate) thanks -mike From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 23:52:56 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 18:52:56 -0500 Subject: Please review this list of potentially missing .so symlinks. In-Reply-To: References: <604aa79104112712286ce8f0a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79104112715528cf5d4f@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 21:27:33 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > No clue about the rest. Hope that helps (and that I'm accurate) Assuming you are accurate we are down to 36 potential missing .so files: libamu.so libblkid.so libboost_date_time.so libboost_filesystem.so libboost_prg_exec_monitor.so libboost_python.so libboost_regex.so libboost_signals.so libboost_test_exec_monitor.so libboost_thread.so libboost_unit_test_framework.so libdw.so libFS.so libg2c.so libgfortranpreview.so libGLw.so libgnarl-3.4.so libgnat-3.4.so libgnomebt.so libgnome-window-settings.so libgthread-1.2.so libhpojip.so liblber-2.2.so liblber.so libldap-2.2.so libldap_r-2.2.so libldap_r.so libmDNSResponder-0.9.6.so libnss_db.so libnuma.so libparted-1.6.so libptal.so libpthread.so libpwdb.so libsvn_swig_perl-1.so libsvn_swig_py-1.so From mpeters at mac.com Sun Nov 28 00:19:47 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 00:19:47 +0000 Subject: Please review this list of potentially missing .so symlinks. In-Reply-To: <604aa79104112715528cf5d4f@mail.gmail.com> (from jspaleta@gmail.com on Sat Nov 27 15:52:56 2004) References: <604aa79104112712286ce8f0a6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79104112715528cf5d4f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1101601187l.19410l.3l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/27/2004 03:52:56 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 21:27:33 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > > No clue about the rest. Hope that helps (and that I'm accurate) > > Assuming you are accurate we are down to 36 potential missing .so I looked at one on the list, libldap-2.2.so I know the openldap-devel package provides a libldap.so file That's not libldap-2.2.so but I think it provides what any app needs to link against openldap - I haven't had any problems building packages against openldap anyway. From ville.skytta at iki.fi Sun Nov 28 11:27:32 2004 From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Skytt=E4?=) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:27:32 +0200 Subject: Please review this list of potentially missing .so symlinks. In-Reply-To: <604aa79104112712286ce8f0a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79104112712286ce8f0a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1101641252.4015.9.camel@bobcat.mine.nu> On Sat, 2004-11-27 at 15:28 -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Appearently, to my great horror, rpm > doesn't notice when symlinks go unpackaged and doesn't warn about it > when building a package. RFE and a potential implementation (from Mandrake): https://bugzilla.redhat.com/108778 From buildsys at redhat.com Sun Nov 28 11:59:58 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 06:59:58 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041128 changes Message-ID: <200411281159.iASBxwp25865@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041128 --------------------------- From ndbecker2 at verizon.net Sun Nov 28 13:27:06 2004 From: ndbecker2 at verizon.net (Neal Becker) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:27:06 -0500 Subject: gcc-3.4.3 for FC3 updates? References: <20041124135907.GF10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Jakub Jelinek wrote: > On Tue, Nov 23, 2004 at 07:53:03AM -0500, Neal D. Becker wrote: >> Just wondering if FC3 updates will include gcc-3.4.3. > > Eventually maybe yes. But can you explain why exactly you need it? > GCC included in FC3 is: > gcc version 3.4.2 20041017 (Red Hat 3.4.2-6.fc3) > (i.e. gcc-3_4-rhl-branch snapshot that includes gcc-3_4-branch up > to 20041017 plus lots of local changes). > GCC 3.4.3 was released 20041104, but gcc-3_4-branch was in deep > freeze at that time, so only a few changes were comitted during > that time and some of them are not relevant to i386/x86_64, or > are in gcc-3.4.2-6.fc3 already. > There were more changes on gcc-3_4-branch since GCC 3.4.3 was released > than between 20041017 and 3.4.3 release. > Actually, the reason I asked is that when 3.4.3 was put on rawhide, I thought it would be soon released for FC3 and went ahead and installed on my FC3 system. Now I have dependency problems. I will have to fix by forced downgrading, but it's tedious to figure out the names of all the packages that need downgrading. Oh well. From cra at WPI.EDU Sun Nov 28 13:57:03 2004 From: cra at WPI.EDU (Charles R. Anderson) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:57:03 -0500 Subject: gcc-3.4.3 for FC3 updates? In-Reply-To: References: <20041124135907.GF10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041128135703.GE1301@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 08:27:06AM -0500, Neal Becker wrote: > my FC3 system. Now I have dependency problems. I will have to fix by > forced downgrading, but it's tedious to figure out the names of all the > packages that need downgrading. Oh well. In the future, you could use up2date with its rollback mechanism... From vherva at viasys.com Sun Nov 28 14:24:59 2004 From: vherva at viasys.com (Ville Herva) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:24:59 +0200 Subject: openoffice.org-i18n size Message-ID: <20041128142459.GO11949@viasys.com> > rpm -qi openoffice.org-i18n Name : openoffice.org-i18n Relocations: (not relocatable) Version : 1.1.2 Vendor: Red Hat, Inc. Release : 12.7 Build Date: Tue Nov 23 23:38:11 2004 Install Date: Sat Nov 27 10:46:07 2004 Build Host: tweety.build.redhat.com Group : Applications/Productivity Source RPM: openoffice.org-1.1.2-12.7.src.rpm Size : 645925614 License: LGPL ^^^^^^^^^ Would it make sense to split openoffice.org-i18n up somewhat? For example, I'm only interested in Finnish and not about Africaans, Catalan, Arabian and what not. 650MB is pretty much for stuff that is not needed at all; it's a huge download (although it compresses well), but also takes up disk space quite much. Or is it just infeasible idea to split it in smaller parts? BTW: Anyone tried openoffice 2.0 beta yet? I don't suppose there are fedora rawhide compatible rpm's for it somewhere? -- v -- v at iki.fi From avibrazil at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 14:30:17 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:30:17 -0200 Subject: openoffice.org-i18n size In-Reply-To: <20041128142459.GO11949@viasys.com> References: <20041128142459.GO11949@viasys.com> Message-ID: I'm with you. I'm only interested in pt_BR and en_US. On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:24:59 +0200, Ville Herva wrote: > > rpm -qi openoffice.org-i18n > Name : openoffice.org-i18n Relocations: (not relocatable) > Version : 1.1.2 Vendor: Red Hat, Inc. > Release : 12.7 Build Date: Tue Nov 23 23:38:11 > 2004 > Install Date: Sat Nov 27 10:46:07 2004 Build Host: > tweety.build.redhat.com > Group : Applications/Productivity Source RPM: > openoffice.org-1.1.2-12.7.src.rpm > Size : 645925614 License: LGPL > ^^^^^^^^^ > > Would it make sense to split openoffice.org-i18n up somewhat? For example, > I'm only interested in Finnish and not about Africaans, Catalan, Arabian and > what not. 650MB is pretty much for stuff that is not needed at all; it's a > huge download (although it compresses well), but also takes up disk space > quite much. > > Or is it just infeasible idea to split it in smaller parts? > > BTW: Anyone tried openoffice 2.0 beta yet? I don't suppose there are fedora > rawhide compatible rpm's for it somewhere? > > -- v -- From fedora at leemhuis.info Sun Nov 28 16:51:53 2004 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:51:53 +0100 Subject: openoffice.org-i18n size In-Reply-To: References: <20041128142459.GO11949@viasys.com> Message-ID: <1101660714.3839.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Am Sonntag, den 28.11.2004, 12:30 -0200 schrieb Avi Alkalay: > I'm with you. > I'm only interested in pt_BR and en_US. Somewhere the maintainer mentioned that this is planed for the near future. Please search the archives and/or bugzilla for details. HTH CU thl > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:24:59 +0200, Ville Herva wrote: > > > rpm -qi openoffice.org-i18n > [...] > > Size : 645925614 License: LGPL > > ^^^^^^^^^ > > > > Would it make sense to split openoffice.org-i18n up somewhat? For example, > > I'm only interested in Finnish and not about Africaans, Catalan, Arabian and > > what not. 650MB is pretty much for stuff that is not needed at all; it's a > > huge download (although it compresses well), but also takes up disk space > > quite much. > > > > Or is it just infeasible idea to split it in smaller parts? > > > > BTW: Anyone tried openoffice 2.0 beta yet? I don't suppose there are fedora > > rawhide compatible rpm's for it somewhere? > > > > -- v -- > -- Thorsten Leemhuis From dcbw at redhat.com Sun Nov 28 17:06:54 2004 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:06:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: openoffice.org-i18n size In-Reply-To: <20041128142459.GO11949@viasys.com> References: <20041128142459.GO11949@viasys.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Ville Herva wrote: > Would it make sense to split openoffice.org-i18n up somewhat? For example, > I'm only interested in Finnish and not about Africaans, Catalan, Arabian and > what not. 650MB is pretty much for stuff that is not needed at all; it's a > huge download (although it compresses well), but also takes up disk space > quite much. Yes, this is targetted for FC4. Dan From msharelick at optonline.net Sun Nov 28 17:10:51 2004 From: msharelick at optonline.net (M Harelick) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:10:51 -0500 Subject: Testing Message-ID: <41AA069B.7060604@optonline.net> Hi: Can someone direct me to the right contact to discuss volunteering for QA on Linux components? Thank You Matthew Harelick From seyman at wanadoo.fr Sun Nov 28 16:46:40 2004 From: seyman at wanadoo.fr (Emmanuel Seyman) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:46:40 +0100 Subject: openoffice.org-i18n size In-Reply-To: <20041128142459.GO11949@viasys.com> References: <20041128142459.GO11949@viasys.com> Message-ID: <20041128164640.GA23483@orient.maison.moi> On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 04:24:59PM +0200, Ville Herva wrote: > > Would it make sense to split openoffice.org-i18n up somewhat? For example, Planned for FC4. Emmanuel From mattdm at mattdm.org Sun Nov 28 17:42:33 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:42:33 -0500 Subject: openoffice.org-i18n size In-Reply-To: <20041128164640.GA23483@orient.maison.moi> References: <20041128142459.GO11949@viasys.com> <20041128164640.GA23483@orient.maison.moi> Message-ID: <20041128174233.GA3764@jadzia.bu.edu> On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 05:46:40PM +0100, Emmanuel Seyman wrote: > > Would it make sense to split openoffice.org-i18n up somewhat? For example, > Planned for FC4. in fact. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From mattdm at mattdm.org Sun Nov 28 17:43:17 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:43:17 -0500 Subject: Testing In-Reply-To: <41AA069B.7060604@optonline.net> References: <41AA069B.7060604@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20041128174317.GB3764@jadzia.bu.edu> On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 12:10:51PM -0500, M Harelick wrote: > Can someone direct me to the right contact to discuss volunteering for > QA on Linux components? Basically, just start doing it -- post your finds here and file them in bugzilla. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From mike at flyn.org Sun Nov 28 17:47:39 2004 From: mike at flyn.org (W. Michael Petullo) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:47:39 -0600 Subject: Laptop mode and SCSI disks Message-ID: <20041128174739.GA5998@imp.flyn.org> I am interested in using the kernel's laptop mode to reduce the power usage of a server. The server has an external IEEE 1394 drive that could easily be spun down for large periods of time. The IEEE 1394 drive is, of course, treated as a SCSI disk by the kernel. I have found that spinning down SCSI disks is not as easy as spinning down IDE disks. I have found utilities to do this, but they require kernel patches and these patches do not seem to exist for the 2.6 kernel's SCSI sub-system. Scsi-spin, scsi-idle and noflushd are some of the options I've looked at. Is anyone working on automatically spinning down SCSI (including USB and IEEE 1394) disks? Would it be worthwhile for me to try and port the 2.4 "spindown ioctl" patch to 2.6? Or does similar functionality already exist in 2.6? I also have some questions about laptop mode specifically: Is there something "magical" that causes disks to spin down after a certain inactivity period when laptop mode is enabled? Or does "hdparm -S X" still need to be used to set this? "hdparm -S 1 /dev/sda" currently says: /dev/sda: setting standby to 1 (5 seconds) HDIO_DRIVE_CMD(setidle1) failed: Invalid argument would hdparm also need to be patched to support SCSI disks? -- Mike :wq From mpeters at mac.com Sun Nov 28 21:12:07 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:12:07 +0000 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms Message-ID: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> xmms is (imho) the best music player that ships with FC simply from a usability standpoint, small screen footprint etc. However, it does not use the gtk2 interface and does not use the gstreamer backend. I found what I think would be a good replacement - it currently does not work for me, so it has that against it, but that may be because I updated my gstreamer plugins from stock fc3 (to 0.8.6) though that hasn't effected other gstreamer apps. It's called eina - http://bolgo.cent.uji.es/proyectos/eina-en It has a very small screen footprint, and simple easy to use interface. It works for me up to the point of actually playing a song, then it hangs (I've only tried mp3 - I haven't tried flac or ogg). But I think it is worth looking into for possible inclusion in Fedora Extras and eventual replacement of xmms, which doesn't seem interested in gtk2 or gstreamer support. From shahms at shahms.com Sun Nov 28 20:38:03 2004 From: shahms at shahms.com (Shahms E. King) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:38:03 -0800 Subject: Fedora Extras for FC3? Message-ID: <1101674283.4528.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> Is there any timeline/status update for when the Fedora Extras packages on fedora.us will be updated for FC3? Or have most of these been rolled into Fedora Core? There aren't any specific packages I've noticed missing, but it seems a little odd that the only semi-official Extras repository is so far behind in updating packages for FC3. -- Shahms E. King From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Sun Nov 28 21:51:28 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:51:28 -0500 Subject: Fedora Extras for FC3? In-Reply-To: <1101674283.4528.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101674283.4528.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101678688.24230.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> This is old news, read the archives of the list. On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 12:38 -0800, Shahms E. King wrote: > Is there any timeline/status update for when the Fedora Extras packages > on fedora.us will be updated for FC3? Or have most of these been rolled > into Fedora Core? There aren't any specific packages I've noticed > missing, but it seems a little odd that the only semi-official Extras > repository is so far behind in updating packages for FC3. > > > -- > Shahms E. King > From quarlewm at jmu.edu Sun Nov 28 21:56:28 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:56:28 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture Message-ID: Hi, Earlier this year on this list several of us were discussing the possibility of adjustments being made to the architecture optimizations of the Fedora Core packages. One of the suggestions thrown around that had zero opposition was changing the base architecture from i386 to i486. Why has this not been done? This is especially poignant since Fedora Core 1 finally broke i386 compatibility with its kernel. I'm sending a related note on the Pentium 4. Peace, William From sopwith at redhat.com Sun Nov 28 21:57:53 2004 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:57:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, William M. Quarles wrote: > Earlier this year on this list several of us were discussing the > possibility of adjustments being made to the architecture optimizations > of the Fedora Core packages. One of the suggestions thrown around that > had zero opposition was changing the base architecture from i386 to > i486. Why has this not been done? This is especially poignant since > Fedora Core 1 finally broke i386 compatibility with its kernel. Lots of pain for little gain (especially if we're just moving to i486 as the base arch). -- Elliot From rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net Sun Nov 28 22:42:45 2004 From: rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net (Ronald S. Bultje) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:42:45 +0100 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> Hi Michael, On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 22:12, Michael A. Peters wrote: [..] > It's called eina - http://bolgo.cent.uji.es/proyectos/eina-en I've actually played with it. It suffers from the problems of being very young. It sometimes hangs, it crashes when doing weird crazy stuff. The stuff that other, more mature players, already got around to. Rhythmbox has a minimal player mode than I enjoy a lot. Its interface is good though, gotta admit that. But there's more to it than the looks. :). Ronald -- Ronald S. Bultje From quarlewm at jmu.edu Sun Nov 28 22:47:35 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:47:35 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Elliot Lee wrote: > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, William M. Quarles wrote: > >>Earlier this year on this list several of us were discussing the >>possibility of adjustments being made to the architecture optimizations >>of the Fedora Core packages. One of the suggestions thrown around that >>had zero opposition was changing the base architecture from i386 to >>i486. Why has this not been done? This is especially poignant since >>Fedora Core 1 finally broke i386 compatibility with its kernel. > > Lots of pain for little gain (especially if we're just moving to i486 as > the base arch). What kind of pain are we talking about here? Peace, William From jspaleta at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 22:54:43 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:54:43 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:47:35 -0500, William M. Quarles > What kind of pain are we talking about here? just as importantly... what kind of gain do you expect to see? Since the issue raised was gain to pain.... is there really any useful gain in moving to i486 as the base arch? -jef From quarlewm at jmu.edu Sun Nov 28 22:42:51 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:42:51 -0500 Subject: Pentium 4 and Athlon architecture optimizations in kernel Message-ID: I dropped my message into this old thread instead: Recent Fedora Core kernels (plus my SPEC file for 2.6.8-1.541 with Athlon support) Have fun. William From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sun Nov 28 23:29:26 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:29:26 -0500 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> Message-ID: <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 23:42 +0100, Ronald S. Bultje wrote: > Hi Michael, > > On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 22:12, Michael A. Peters wrote: > [..] > > It's called eina - http://bolgo.cent.uji.es/proyectos/eina-en > > I've actually played with it. It suffers from the problems of being very > young. It sometimes hangs, it crashes when doing weird crazy stuff. The > stuff that other, more mature players, already got around to. Rhythmbox > has a minimal player mode than I enjoy a lot. > > Its interface is good though, gotta admit that. But there's more to it > than the looks. :). > I only wish rhythmbox could play a song w/o having to import it into the library, first. Sometimes I just want to play a song, or a set of songs. Rhythmbox does a lot of things well, but it doesn't have a 'play this one song' mode. -sv From stevelist at silverorange.com Sun Nov 28 23:43:06 2004 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:43:06 -0400 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> seth vidal wrote: > I only wish rhythmbox could play a song w/o having to import it into the > library, first. > > Sometimes I just want to play a song, or a set of songs. > Rhythmbox does a lot of things well, but it doesn't have a 'play this > one song' mode. I second that - iTunes suffers from the same problem (I think). I guess it's the inherent split between using files/directories as your music management vs. using an internal database (with genres, artists, and albums). Steven Garrity From pp at ee.oulu.fi Sun Nov 28 23:46:50 2004 From: pp at ee.oulu.fi (Pekka Pietikainen) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:46:50 +0200 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 05:54:43PM -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:47:35 -0500, William M. Quarles > > What kind of pain are we talking about here? > just as importantly... what kind of gain do you expect to see? > Since the issue raised was gain to pain.... is there really any useful > gain in moving to i486 as the base arch? Indeed: http://www.ee.oulu.fi/~pp/faqentry (submitted to the fedora faq some time ago, didn't hear anything back and it's potentially a bit too complex for that context). For the instruction set bits, Chapter 17 of http://www.intel.com/design/pentiumii/manuals/243192.htm has details on the instruction set differences between the different x86 iterations. Just some ballpark figures on how often gcc gets to use these instructions, and this is glibc which might have used these in handcoded assembly: (objdump --disassemble /lib/i686/libc.so.6 | grep |wc -l ) cpmxchg:7 xadd: 8 bswap: 136 cmov: 1099 (and this already limits us to non-VIA C3 i686) Total lines: 297992 Doesn't take into account how often this code is called and how much slower the i386 instruction set alternative is in reality. My guess is "unmeasurable". Someone feel like doing an experiment on some real code, glibc isn't really representative of typical code? Just compile some large package with different -march= options (keeping mtune at pentium4) and see what non-i386 instructions it actually generates. Bonus points for listing the functions and showing whether they are in the oprofile/gprof top #10 or not. -- Pekka Pietikainen From foolish at fedoraforum.org Sun Nov 28 23:56:17 2004 From: foolish at fedoraforum.org (Sindre Pedersen Bjordal) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:56:17 +0100 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Totem offers this kind of functionality, and because both rhythmbox and totem uses gstreamer, I would think we already have a good solution for both of the playback scenarios with minimum hassle. s?n, 28,.11.2004 kl. 19.43 -0400, skrev Steven Garrity: > seth vidal wrote: > > I only wish rhythmbox could play a song w/o having to import it into the > > library, first. > > > > Sometimes I just want to play a song, or a set of songs. > > Rhythmbox does a lot of things well, but it doesn't have a 'play this > > one song' mode. > > I second that - iTunes suffers from the same problem (I think). I guess > it's the inherent split between using files/directories as your music > management vs. using an internal database (with genres, artists, and > albums). > > Steven Garrity > -- Sindre Pedersen Bjordal www.fedoraforum.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt signert meldingsdel URL: From mpeters at mac.com Mon Nov 29 00:14:52 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:14:52 +0000 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> (from foolish@fedoraforum.org on Sun Nov 28 15:56:17 2004) References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/28/2004 03:56:17 PM, Sindre Pedersen Bjordal wrote: > Totem offers this kind of functionality, and because both rhythmbox > and > totem uses gstreamer, I would think we already have a good solution > for > both of the playback scenarios with minimum hassle. Yes, and I currently use totem that way. Hopefully in fc4 totem will be in default gnome desktop install, rather than needing to be selected. But totem has a rather large interface when it starts up, it in a movie player. Something like xmms but gtk2 and GStreamer is what I long for. Gamp is nice, and even works well for me - even with aac files (which Rhythmbox doesn't - yet ...) but Eina has the best interface I've seen (so far) and (well, it doesn't work for me) allows you to load a single song or load from a playlist. From Frank at lists.sytes.net Mon Nov 29 00:38:49 2004 From: Frank at lists.sytes.net (Frank) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:38:49 +0100 Subject: Pentium 4 and Athlon architecture optimizations in kernel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041129003851.1299F7544D@mail.figaro.fr> Hallo, > I dropped my message into this old thread instead: > > Recent Fedora Core kernels (plus my SPEC file for 2.6.8-1.541 with > Athlon support) > > Have fun. > > William > Thankx. You now where these Specfiles are ? Because, this sounds very auspicious: [ **BTW, I'm fully aware that the i686 kernel runs fairly optimized on Athlon. But turning off the generic support, and optimizing for K7 makes a significant difference for me in engineering applications. ] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2004-September/msg04462.html www.vaporwarelabs.com seems unfortunately down as is tryed. If Athlon Kernel would entering back Fedora i would be the first one who test it. Greetings Frank From quarlewm at jmu.edu Mon Nov 29 00:46:54 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:46:54 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> Message-ID: Pekka Pietikainen wrote: > On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 05:54:43PM -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >>On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:47:35 -0500, William M. Quarles >> >>>What kind of pain are we talking about here? >> >>just as importantly... what kind of gain do you expect to see? >>Since the issue raised was gain to pain.... is there really any useful >>gain in moving to i486 as the base arch? > > Indeed: > > http://www.ee.oulu.fi/~pp/faqentry > > (submitted to the fedora faq some time ago, didn't hear anything back and it's > potentially a bit too complex for that context). > > For the instruction set bits, > Chapter 17 of http://www.intel.com/design/pentiumii/manuals/243192.htm > has details on the instruction set differences between the different x86 > iterations. > > Just some ballpark figures on how often gcc gets to use these instructions, > and this is glibc which might have used these in handcoded assembly: > (objdump --disassemble /lib/i686/libc.so.6 | grep |wc -l ) > > cpmxchg:7 > xadd: 8 > bswap: 136 > cmov: 1099 (and this already limits us to non-VIA C3 i686) > Total lines: 297992 > > Doesn't take into account how often this code is called and how much slower > the i386 instruction set alternative is in reality. My guess is > "unmeasurable". > > Someone feel like doing an experiment on some real code, glibc isn't really > representative of typical code? Just compile some large package > with different -march= options (keeping mtune at pentium4) and see what > non-i386 instructions it actually generates. Bonus points for listing > the functions and showing whether they are in the oprofile/gprof top #10 > or not. I would, but are there any free ways of doing benchmarks? Not to mention I'm not really much of a programmer, so I don't know what oprofile/gprof are. BTW, I think that you mean -mcpu, not -mtune, as long as we are talking about ix86 processors. ---- Peace, William From stevelist at silverorange.com Mon Nov 29 00:56:55 2004 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:56:55 -0400 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> Michael A. Peters wrote: > Sindre Pedersen Bjordal wrote: >> Totem offers this kind of functionality, and because both rhythmbox >> and totem uses gstreamer, I would think we already have a good solution >> both of the playback scenarios with minimum hassle. > > Yes, and I currently use totem that way. Hopefully in fc4 totem will be > in default gnome desktop install, rather than needing to be selected. > > But totem has a rather large interface when it starts up, it in a movie > player. > > Something like xmms but gtk2 and GStreamer is what I long for. Gamp is > nice, and even works well for me - even with aac files (which Rhythmbox > doesn't - yet ...) but Eina has the best interface I've seen (so far) > and (well, it doesn't work for me) allows you to load a single song or > load from a playlist. Totem always has a simple set of audio/video controls and simple playlist abilities. I'd rather see Totem tweaked a bit to be a good XMMS replacement rather than introduce ANOTHER media player. Not sure what the Helix player is doing in here - works well, but seems redundant with Totem/Rhythmbox. Perhaps it's in here because of RealNetworks/Redhat agreements? Steven Garrity From quarlewm at jmu.edu Mon Nov 29 00:51:03 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:51:03 -0500 Subject: APT repository problems with up2date In-Reply-To: <41A8217D.10405@nogin.org> References: <200406052123.i55LNUS19461@xos037.xos.nl> <41A7A6A2.9070200@jmu.edu> <41A8217D.10405@nogin.org> Message-ID: Aleksey Nogin wrote: > There is a known problem with up2date complaining of "conflicts" on > directories in packages from apt repositories - see > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=106123 Thanks for the info, I'm trying to get the bug reports talking to each other now. Peace, William From bclark at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 01:41:00 2004 From: bclark at redhat.com (Bryan Clark) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:41:00 -0500 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1101692461.3467.0.camel@rhbw.boston.redhat.com> On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 19:43 -0400, Steven Garrity wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > I only wish rhythmbox could play a song w/o having to import it into the > > library, first. > > > > Sometimes I just want to play a song, or a set of songs. > > Rhythmbox does a lot of things well, but it doesn't have a 'play this > > one song' mode. > > I second that - iTunes suffers from the same problem (I think). I guess > it's the inherent split between using files/directories as your music > management vs. using an internal database (with genres, artists, and > albums). File bugs ;-) http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156181 Cheers, ~ Bryan From david at fubar.dk Mon Nov 29 01:49:46 2004 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:49:46 -0500 Subject: adventures in booting Message-ID: <1101692986.2025.22.camel@davidz> Hey, So, I've looked a bit more into the booting process and how to optimize it. Mostly based on the discussion triggered by Owen's boot poster challenge, here http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg00447.html and also some experiments that I did - basically replacing rhgb with gdm as described here http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-November/msg00066.html What I've done is a bit crude - I've replaced init(1) with a shell script based on /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit and tried to optimize specifically for my system: IBM Thinkpad T41 laptop with a Pentium M processor at 1600MHz along with 512MB of RAM. The results are pretty good I think, here is the general time line made with a wallclock 00: exit grub; start booting the kernel 04: kernel prints audit() 11: initrd is mounted; Red Hat nash visible mount / ro (normal initrd procedure) 13: start bootchart logging; start readahead of approx 193MB files sleep until readahead is complete 24: readahead done; now create /dev and modprobe (in background) mount / rw, enable swap start xfs startx as user davidz in background start messagebus start hald start acpid start NetworkManager 32: X claims the display 34: GNOME desktop banner 40: GNOME desktop is usable (Nautilus desktop, panel fully populated) Here is a bootchart made with the bootchart software from Ziga Mahkovec: http://people.redhat.com/davidz/bootchart.png You may notice that I also start firefox after login and it starts very very fast - that's because readahead loads all files used by Firefox - in earlier experiments I've also added files from OpenOffice.org to readahead and that meant I could start up OpenOffice.org Writer in about three seconds. More below. I've made the following observations 1. The kernel patch, linux-2.6.3-printopen.patch, wasn't really working well for me - it reported far to few files - instead I added a printk() to fs/namei.c:link_path_walk() (disclaimer: I don't know much about the kernel so there may be a better solution than this). 2. The data captured from link_path_walk() was massaged into a list of unique files to preload and sorted on sectors. 3. While capturing the data link_path_walk() and before processing I went through all the menus in the GNOME desktop (to make sure their icon and desktop files would be added to the list) as well as loading Firefox. The list contains 5189 unique files - 231 of these from my home directory - 103 of these from gconf in my home directory and 302 from gconf in /etc. 2267 were .png files and 814 of them were .desktop files. 488 files had ".so" in their name. There was a total of 193MB of files (which says something about the footprint of the GNOME desktop on Fedora :-/) 4. Doing the readahead really helped the time from startx till a usable desktop - less than 10 seconds! 5. Doing readahead on the 5189 files took about 45 seconds on my system, mostly because the files were scattered around the disk. Since I had a spare partition 17GB partition, I did this: a. format spare partition as ext3 b. copy all readahead files to spare partition (193MB) c. copy rest of files from main partition to spare partition (about 9GB) Now the readahead is down to 11 seconds which averages out to be 18MB/s. On the other hand, I can still see (using fileblock) that the files in the readahead is still scattered out and hdparm says I should be able to get 33.87 MB/sec with no seeks. 6. I made a hack to cache /dev (a dev.tar file) and the list of modules to load. This could be used in production if the kernel could give us basically a hash value for the kobject hierarchy representing the hardware (perhaps even a 'tree /sys |md5sum' would suffice). This shaved some seconds of as well. 7. A number of things was started in parallel - I found that doing readahead while running modprobe wasn't helping anything; in fact it contributed negatively to performance (a bit to my surprise, I guess because the kernel was busy). 8. readahead on the right files is A Good Thing(tm). Booting my system without readahead on the partition with the readahead files scattered took 58 seconds (compared to 39 with readahead on the optimized partition) http://people.redhat.com/davidz/bootchart-without-readahead-scattered.png and without readahead on on the optimized partition it took 43 seconds http://people.redhat.com/davidz/bootchart-without-readahead-nonscattered.png again compared to 39 seconds. As an added bonus, the readahead makes sure that e.g Firefox loads fast; all .png and .desktop files are in place for when using the menus. As mentioned, one could put very big apps like e.g. OO.o in the readahead set. So, I think these numbers are good and there's still some room for improvement; e.g. it takes ten seconds from grub to when the initrd is mounted - surely the kernel can boot faster? It's after all 25% of the time spent from grub until I have usable desktop. The bad thing is that this approach is highly specific to my system (and thus why I'm not posting an RPM with it :-), however I think it clearly shows where improvements should be made; here are some random thoughts a. We should keep track of files being loaded and maintain the readahead fileset as appropriate. printk() doesn't seem like the right solution; perhaps a system daemon using inotify or the kernel events layer is the road ahead? This would enable us to readahead the KDE stuff if the user is e.g. using KDE a lot. b. ext3 should support operations for moving blocks around; e.g. optimize around the readahead fileset - when idle the system should rearrange the files to facilitate faster booting c. the start_udev and kmodule process could be cached as I did above d. The whole init(1) procedure seems dated; perhaps something more modern built on top of D-BUS is the right choice - SystemServices by Seth Nickell comes to mind [1]. Ideally services to be started would have dependencies such as 1) don't start the gdm service before /usr/bin/gdm is available; 2) the SSH service would only be active when NetworkManager says there is a network connection; /usr from LABEL=/usr would only be mounted when there is a volume with that label and so forth. Also, such a system would of course have support for LSB init scripts. (This is probably a whole project on it's own so I'm omitting detailed thinking on it for now) Thanks a lot to Ziga Mahkovec for the bootchart software - it's been very useful. Have fun, David [1] : http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4711 http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/2003/Sep/27 From n3npq at nc.rr.com Mon Nov 29 02:36:45 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:36:45 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> Message-ID: <41AA8B3D.4010609@nc.rr.com> Pekka Pietikainen wrote: >On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 05:54:43PM -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > >>On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:47:35 -0500, William M. Quarles >> >> >>>What kind of pain are we talking about here? >>> >>> >>just as importantly... what kind of gain do you expect to see? >>Since the issue raised was gain to pain.... is there really any useful >>gain in moving to i486 as the base arch? >> >> >Indeed: > >http://www.ee.oulu.fi/~pp/faqentry > >(submitted to the fedora faq some time ago, didn't hear anything back and it's >potentially a bit too complex for that context). > >For the instruction set bits, >Chapter 17 of http://www.intel.com/design/pentiumii/manuals/243192.htm >has details on the instruction set differences between the different x86 >iterations. > >Just some ballpark figures on how often gcc gets to use these instructions, >and this is glibc which might have used these in handcoded assembly: >(objdump --disassemble /lib/i686/libc.so.6 | grep |wc -l ) > >cpmxchg:7 >xadd: 8 >bswap: 136 >cmov: 1099 (and this already limits us to non-VIA C3 i686) >Total lines: 297992 > > Interesting. However, grep does not take into account which code paths do what, I'm sure that run time statistics would be more revealing. Perhaps there might be some way to trick oprofile into revealing how often the instructions are actuall used, dunno. >Doesn't take into account how often this code is called and how much slower >the i386 instruction set alternative is in reality. My guess is >"unmeasurable". > > What you said ;-) Perhaps, only objective tests can reveal all. >Someone feel like doing an experiment on some real code, glibc isn't really >representative of typical code? Just compile some large package >with different -march= options (keeping mtune at pentium4) and see what >non-i386 instructions it actually generates. Bonus points for listing >the functions and showing whether they are in the oprofile/gprof top #10 >or not. > > > All that being said, just about the only remaining impediment to claiming that FC4 is "Only i486 and above." is the "i386" string in the package file names and directory structures. Most, if not all, of the packages in RH distros have been compiled with tunings more appropriate for i486 and above for years. Which shouldn't surprise, because that's what most users are using. And it also shouldn't surprise that there are indeed instructions that have crept into various packages that preven execution on i386, rdtsc in rpm (so I don't have to stare at gettimeofday in straces) comes to mind, as there are very very few operational i386 boxen within RH these days, and hence no explicit QA checks for only i386 appropriate instructions. Changing "i386" in package file names everywhere is a great deal of pain for almost no gain imho. 73 de Jeff From davej at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 02:47:42 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:47:42 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <41AA8B3D.4010609@nc.rr.com> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <41AA8B3D.4010609@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041129024742.GB27169@redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 09:36:45PM -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: >And it also shouldn't surprise that there are indeed instructions that have >crept into various packages that preven execution on i386, rdtsc in rpm (so I >don't have to stare at gettimeofday in straces) comes to mind. Hopefully you're checking the cpuid feature flags to make sure 'tsc' is there first, and falling back to get_timeofday if not present ? If not, this is horribly broken on.. - lots of 586's. Cyrix, and early AMDs iirc didn't have TSC. - Any CPU with errata making TSC unusable. Winchip C6 was one such beast. (586), there may be others too. - Some NUMA boxes have big problems keeping TSCs in sync, and fall back to alternative timing sources. Come to think of it, why is rpm needing to do this anyway ? Dave From davej at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 03:00:04 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:00:04 -0500 Subject: Recent Fedora Core kernels (plus my SPEC file for 2.6.8-1.541 with Athlon support) In-Reply-To: References: <1096222216.3779.73.camel@bitman.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <20040926181809.GD24689@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> Message-ID: <20041129030004.GD27169@redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 05:42:41PM -0500, William M. Quarles wrote: > A. I'm tired of Red Hat holding back on optimizations. The architecture > tree/network that RPM consults is kind of screwed up. Not to mention > that it is ridiculous to compile packages for i386 architecture that > will never run on an i386, especially when the developers have dropped > in MMX instrcutions in the assembly anyways, so the i386 designation is > then meaningless. Those applications should be doing the relevant cpuid checks at runtime before using them. Fedora supports processors that don't have MMX. If you have a list of applications that don't do this, file bugs in bugzilla. > It would be nice if RPM could call compilations for > say pentium-mmx or pentium2 rather than forcing developers to insert > this code manually via assembly The number of packages using assembler is tiny compared to the number of applications shipped. And no gcc options are going to change that for the most part. gcc is getting better all the time, but hand-written assembler is hard to beat for speed-critical operations in packages that really need the speed. > B. Red Hat developers were saying before that we need more optimization > for the Pentium 4 because it is obviously not running as well on i686 > optimizations as it could. However, I have yet to see a Pentium 4 > optimized Fedora Core kernel come out. Perhaps they're busy debating > about whether to call it pentium4 or i786. The idea had crossed my mind to ship the 686 kernel as p4 optimised the last time this discussion came around for benchmarking purposes. Not around round tuits. > C. If it doesn't hurt and it would probably help, I don't see what's the > matter with making an Athlon-optimized kernel. A number of reasons. - It's one more column in the matrix of supported kernels to worry about. This may seem insignificant, but it takes quite a while to push a kernel package through the buildsystem given how many variants it spits out. On a busy day (like for eg, just before release), it can take the better part of a day to get packages built. - The gain just isn't worth it over the 2.4 kernels. Now that the runtime optimisations get performed in 2.6, theres only one thing thats missing that would be in an Athlon optimised kernel, and thats the optimised copy_page/clear_page, which are really only a win when a lot of data is being copied back/forth between the kernel, and even then, only under certain usage patterns. I'll be surprised if this shows up on any real-world application. - anyone this concerned about that last 1-2% of performance will want to recompiling their own kernel anyway to disable such things as highmem support when not needed, or selinux, or 4g4g, or.. > And considering the > complaints that I have seen, it would make even more sense to make a > Pentium 4-optimized kernel available even if the Athlon one was not > available. As above. A seperate kernel is probably overkill. Compiling the 686 kernel with gcc tunings for p4 (but no instructions) might make sense however. Dave From n3npq at nc.rr.com Mon Nov 29 03:01:23 2004 From: n3npq at nc.rr.com (Jeff Johnson) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:01:23 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <20041129024742.GB27169@redhat.com> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <41AA8B3D.4010609@nc.rr.com> <20041129024742.GB27169@redhat.com> Message-ID: <41AA9103.6010003@nc.rr.com> Dave Jones wrote: >On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 09:36:45PM -0500, Jeff Johnson wrote: > >And it also shouldn't surprise that there are indeed instructions that have > >crept into various packages that preven execution on i386, rdtsc in rpm (so I > >don't have to stare at gettimeofday in straces) comes to mind. > >Hopefully you're checking the cpuid feature flags to make sure 'tsc' >is there first, and falling back to get_timeofday if not present ? >If not, this is horribly broken on.. > >- lots of 586's. > Cyrix, and early AMDs iirc didn't have TSC. > >- Any CPU with errata making TSC unusable. > Winchip C6 was one such beast. (586), there may be > others too. > >- Some NUMA boxes have big problems keeping TSCs > in sync, and fall back to alternative timing sources. > > Yep. >Come to think of it, why is rpm needing to do this anyway ? > Because I'm ask continuosly and repeatedly Why is rpm slow? And noone is willing to hear the answer Because packages and rpm features are getting fatter and fatter. There is one remianing (and excrutaingly painful to fix) bottleneck in rpm, you know as Preparing ============ ... Add --stats to any command, measure your own bottlenecks. But won't work on any of the platforms you mention above. 73 de Jeff From mpeters at mac.com Mon Nov 29 04:44:32 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:44:32 +0000 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> (from stevelist@silverorange.com on Sun Nov 28 16:56:55 2004) References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/28/2004 04:56:55 PM, Steven Garrity wrote: > Not sure what the Helix player is doing in here - works well, but > seems redundant with Totem/Rhythmbox. Perhaps it's in here because of > RealNetworks/Redhat agreements? Maybe - but a number of people are just using RealPlayer10 anyway - which is allegedly more capable than Helix (I haven't tried either). From arjanv at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 08:11:13 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:11:13 +0100 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> Message-ID: <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 19:46 -0500, William M. Quarles wrote: > I would, but are there any free ways of doing benchmarks? Not to > mention I'm not really much of a programmer, so I don't know what > oprofile/gprof are. for what it's worth... cmov isn't faster on newer (pM/pIV/amd64 level) CPUs than the open coded conditional jump anymore.... so there no longer really is a reason to use cmov-only code. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon Nov 29 02:57:12 2004 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:57:12 -0600 Subject: Fedora Extras for FC3? In-Reply-To: <1101678688.24230.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> References: <1101674283.4528.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101678688.24230.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> Message-ID: <1101697032.8595.1.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 16:51 -0500, Sean Middleditch wrote: > This is old news, read the archives of the list. Old news to those who subscribe to this list. It might be more effective to just put a blurb about Extras on the webpage. Even a simple link to the post in the archives would suffice. Any webmasters listening out there? josh From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Mon Nov 29 08:37:24 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:37:24 +0100 Subject: Fedora Extras for FC3? In-Reply-To: <1101697032.8595.1.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1101674283.4528.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101678688.24230.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <1101697032.8595.1.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <20041129093724.7cd07669.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:57:12 -0600, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 16:51 -0500, Sean Middleditch wrote: > > This is old news, read the archives of the list. > > Old news to those who subscribe to this list. It might be more > effective to just put a blurb about Extras on the webpage. Even a > simple link to the post in the archives would suffice. Any webmasters > listening out there? http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg01170.html -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.681_FC3 loadavg: 1.10 1.07 1.02 From uraeus at gnome.org Sat Nov 27 16:50:58 2004 From: uraeus at gnome.org (Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:50:58 +0100 Subject: Missing xorg header files Message-ID: <1101574259.21679.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, I am trying to make a RPM for NVU (the mozilla based webeditor from linspire), but the compilation fails with due to missing: X11/extensions/Print.h Googling I find other people mentioning the that the headers are missing but no reply on why or when they can be expected to be back. Or if they are gone for good and app developers need to stop using them. Hope someone here can provide some insight. Christian From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Mon Nov 29 08:41:17 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:41:17 +0100 Subject: Missing xorg header files In-Reply-To: <1101574259.21679.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101574259.21679.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041129094117.1ce899c4.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:50:58 +0100, Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller wrote: > I am trying to make a RPM for NVU (the mozilla based webeditor from > linspire), but the compilation fails with due to missing: > X11/extensions/Print.h > > Googling I find other people mentioning the that the headers are missing > but no reply on why or when they can be expected to be back. Or if they > are gone for good and app developers need to stop using them. > > Hope someone here can provide some insight. $ rpm --redhatprovides /usr/X11R6/include/X11/extensions/Print.h xorg-x11-deprecated-libs-devel-6.8.1-12 -- Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux 2.6.9-1.681_FC3 loadavg: 1.21 1.11 1.04 From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Nov 29 08:47:33 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:47:33 +0800 Subject: Fedora Extras for FC3? In-Reply-To: <1101697032.8595.1.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1101674283.4528.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101678688.24230.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <1101697032.8595.1.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1101718053.15163.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 20:57 -0600, Josh Boyer wrote: > > This is old news, read the archives of the list. > > Old news to those who subscribe to this list. It might be more > effective to just put a blurb about Extras on the webpage. Even a > simple link to the post in the archives would suffice. Any webmasters > listening out there? Actually, it's been on the Wiki for quite some time: http://www.fedora.us/wiki/FedoraHOWTO And I just fixed the other copy of the wiki (the new wiki) too: http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/wiki/index.cgi/Extras_2fFedoraHOWTO So, its been on the website -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From nmiell at comcast.net Mon Nov 29 09:02:46 2004 From: nmiell at comcast.net (Nicholas Miell) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:02:46 -0800 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1101718966.3518.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 09:11 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > for what it's worth... cmov isn't faster on newer (pM/pIV/amd64 level) > CPUs than the open coded conditional jump anymore.... > so there no longer really is a reason to use cmov-only code. > CMOVcc will use less space in the instruction cache than the Jcc/MOV pair, though. -- Nicholas Miell From arjanv at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 09:16:35 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:16:35 +0100 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <1101718966.3518.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101718966.3518.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041129091635.GA24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 01:02:46AM -0800, Nicholas Miell wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 09:11 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > for what it's worth... cmov isn't faster on newer (pM/pIV/amd64 level) > > CPUs than the open coded conditional jump anymore.... > > so there no longer really is a reason to use cmov-only code. > > > > CMOVcc will use less space in the instruction cache than the Jcc/MOV > pair, though. only sometimes.... since cmov doens't work on all register/memory combinations extra code might be needed to glue that together... .... and we're suddenly talking about 0.01% performance ;) From nmiell at comcast.net Mon Nov 29 09:30:11 2004 From: nmiell at comcast.net (Nicholas Miell) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:30:11 -0800 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <20041129091635.GA24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101718966.3518.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041129091635.GA24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101720611.3518.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 10:16 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 01:02:46AM -0800, Nicholas Miell wrote: > > CMOVcc will use less space in the instruction cache than the Jcc/MOV > > pair, though. > > only sometimes.... since cmov doens't work on all register/memory > combinations extra code might be needed to glue that together... > > > .... and we're suddenly talking about 0.01% performance ;) Well, yeah. :) There's also branch prediction and decode bandwidth issues that I didn't bother to mention. But, if you're going to optimize for i686 or better for other reasons, there's no reason not to use CMOVcc instead of Jcc/MOV, where possible. Not that you'll ever notice the difference... -- Nicholas Miell From avibrazil at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 09:31:11 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:31:11 -0200 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: They want to make their first steps into the Open Source world and see if they can build an ecosystem around their dead products and dead technologies. Probably a plugin for their Helix player is compatible with RealPlayer too, and they want to see plugins popping around. Nobody told them that if Helix can't play MP3, WMA, RM, MPEG and other basic stuff we use, nobody will use it, and without users you can't build an ecosystem. Good luck for them. They'll need it. Regards, Avi On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:44:32 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > On 11/28/2004 04:56:55 PM, Steven Garrity wrote: > > > Not sure what the Helix player is doing in here - works well, but > > seems redundant with Totem/Rhythmbox. Perhaps it's in here because of > > RealNetworks/Redhat agreements? > > Maybe - but a number of people are just using RealPlayer10 anyway - > which is allegedly more capable than Helix (I haven't tried either). From arjanv at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 09:32:43 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:32:43 +0100 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <1101720611.3518.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101718966.3518.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041129091635.GA24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101720611.3518.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041129093243.GC24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 01:30:11AM -0800, Nicholas Miell wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 10:16 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 01:02:46AM -0800, Nicholas Miell wrote: > > > CMOVcc will use less space in the instruction cache than the Jcc/MOV > > > pair, though. > > > > only sometimes.... since cmov doens't work on all register/memory > > combinations extra code might be needed to glue that together... > > > > > > .... and we're suddenly talking about 0.01% performance ;) > > Well, yeah. :) > > There's also branch prediction and decode bandwidth issues that I didn't > bother to mention. branch prediction on p4 actually takes hints from the compiler now ;) > > But, if you're going to optimize for i686 or better for other reasons, we *already* optimize for i686 even in the i386 rpms > there's no reason not to use CMOVcc instead of Jcc/MOV, where possible. there is a reason... it keeps running on older hw and on via C3's :) From jakub at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 09:41:04 2004 From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:41:04 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <1101720611.3518.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101718966.3518.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041129091635.GA24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101720611.3518.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041129094104.GN10340@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 01:30:11AM -0800, Nicholas Miell wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 10:16 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 01:02:46AM -0800, Nicholas Miell wrote: > > > CMOVcc will use less space in the instruction cache than the Jcc/MOV > > > pair, though. > > > > only sometimes.... since cmov doens't work on all register/memory > > combinations extra code might be needed to glue that together... > > > > > > .... and we're suddenly talking about 0.01% performance ;) > > Well, yeah. :) > > There's also branch prediction and decode bandwidth issues that I didn't > bother to mention. Although P4 have the ds/cs segment prefixes for static branch prediction, the non-preproduction chips actually don't use it, so it only makes code bigger. http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2004-07/msg02200.html > But, if you're going to optimize for i686 or better for other reasons, > there's no reason not to use CMOVcc instead of Jcc/MOV, where possible. Well, there is a reason aside from some CPUs not having those insns at all: on some recent Intel CPUs CMOVcc is actually slower than Jcc/MOV. Jakub From alan at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 09:41:20 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:41:20 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <1101720611.3518.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101718966.3518.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041129091635.GA24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101720611.3518.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041129094120.GC8338@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 01:30:11AM -0800, Nicholas Miell wrote: > There's also branch prediction and decode bandwidth issues that I didn't > bother to mention. The performance is the same on the newer CPU's including branch prediction and all the other stuff. You have to predict for a CMOV just like a jump. From nmiell at comcast.net Mon Nov 29 09:41:55 2004 From: nmiell at comcast.net (Nicholas Miell) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:41:55 -0800 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <20041129093243.GC24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101718966.3518.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041129091635.GA24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101720611.3518.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041129093243.GC24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101721315.3518.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 10:32 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > branch prediction on p4 actually takes hints from the compiler now ;) That turned out to be useless, Intel no longer recommends it (or even documents it, IIRC). I'm not sure if gcc still generates the hints when targeting P4s. > we *already* optimize for i686 even in the i386 rpms I meant in terms of using i686 specific instructions (i.e. SSE, SSE2, etc.), not i686 instruction scheduling. -- Nicholas Miell From abo at kth.se Mon Nov 29 10:21:04 2004 From: abo at kth.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:21:04 +0100 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1101723665.3607.8.camel@tudor.e.kth.se> s?n 2004-11-28 klockan 20:56 -0400 skrev Steven Garrity: > Not sure what the Helix player is doing in here - works well, but seems > redundant with Totem/Rhythmbox. Perhaps it's in here because of > RealNetworks/Redhat agreements? It's got a browser plugin just like RealPlayer, but of course there's not much content available for it. Hopefully, some day there will be Vorbis and Theora plugins available as automatic updates in RealPlayer for Windows. Then maybe web sites will start streaming using those formats so that the current support in FC3 becomes useful. /abo From rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net Mon Nov 29 10:32:30 2004 From: rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net (Ronald S. Bultje) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:32:30 +0100 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1101724342.28290.83.camel@tux.lan> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 10:31, Avi Alkalay wrote: > They want to make their first steps into the Open Source world and see > if they can build an ecosystem around their dead products and dead > technologies. Probably a plugin for their Helix player is compatible > with RealPlayer too, and they want to see plugins popping around. If they were really serious about their efforts to set a foot into the world of free software, they'd make plugins (which don't even have to be GPL'ed, mind you!) available to play Realmedia content using GStreamer. I've even offered to write those plugins for them, for free (see the GNOME d-d-l archives)! The whole GNOME and KDE desktop would suddenly play realmedia files. But as we all know, it's really just a joke. They don't care about the free software world. They need users to get funding for their paid content. Very disappointing. Ronald -- Ronald S. Bultje From avibrazil at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 10:58:45 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:58:45 -0200 Subject: Firefox fonts Message-ID: Somebody knows how to make Gnome apps (firefox) to use the Gnome font settings (and others like themes, etc) while on a KDE session? Thanks, Avi From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Mon Nov 29 11:03:03 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:03:03 +0100 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <20041129120303.44a10097@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. Steven Garrity wrote: > I second that - iTunes suffers from the same problem (I think). iTunes defaults to this behaviour, but it can be disabled. -- If we are what we eat, then I'm easy, fast and cheap. From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Mon Nov 29 11:40:14 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:40:14 +0100 Subject: Suggestion for some network parameter defaults Message-ID: <20041129124014.11380474@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. I have been using the following changes to some network parameters on all of my machines for a long time, and I was wondering whether they ought to be set by default. net.ipv4.conf.all.rp_filter (current: 0, proposed: 1) net.ipv4.conf.all.accept_redirects (current: 1, proposed: 0) net.ipv4.icmp_echo_ignore_broadcasts (current: 0, proposed: 1) net.ipv4.icmp_ignore_bogus_error_responses (current: 0, proposed: 1) While I admit that the current values can serve a certain use in some situations, I think that in the majority of configurations the proposed values are more sensible. -- "Carpe dentem! Seize the teeth!" -- Mrs Doubtfire From Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de Mon Nov 29 11:43:15 2004 From: Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de (Bernd Bartmann) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:43:15 +0100 Subject: Missing update advisories In-Reply-To: <604aa7910411221712528be@mail.gmail.com> References: <41A264DE.9090202@sohanet.de> <604aa7910411221712528be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41AB0B53.5060403@sohanet.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeff Spaleta wrote: | On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:14:54 +0100, Bernd Bartmann wrote: | |>After FC3 final has been released several updates have been pushed out |>to the mirrors and yet again we haven't seen any announcement for some |>of them. Some announcements for FC2 and even FC1 are still missing too: | | | as this list points out, this is a continuing process problem. The | only garunteed engineered solution to prevent this from happening is | to make filing an annoucement text a blocking requirement for | submitting an package as an update. But that will require a level of | automation and red-tape that I don't think anyone inside the fenceline | really wants to or has time to implement. | | It's my understanding that the primary reason these annoucements | aren't making it out the door is that individual maintainers are | simply forgetting to create an annoucement text and submit it to the | annouce list. | | As a compromise, i would like to suggest that a autobug filer script | be created that would file a bugreport against a component if an | update goes unannouced for 3+ days in an effort to make the | individual package maintainer aware of the problem in a timely | fashion. While the summary reports to the public lists are somewhat | useful.... finding a way to poke the individual package maintainers | more directly seems to be needed. All the information needed should | be available from the master mirror.. maybe just parsing the | repository metadata | would be enough. | | And I realize the existance of security issues greatly complicates | when and how information is released. I'm trying to come up with | discreet solution that makes sure annoucements don't fall through the | cracks and are completely forgotten. | | thoughts? is a script designed to automate filing missing update | announcement bugs a realistic and useful way forward? As such script doesn't seem to exist yet what do think of just opening something like the tracker bug for FC3 where we add all the missing update announcements. This means adding a separate bug to each package without update announcement and using this as an blocker for the tracker bug. If this looks ok to you I can volunteer and add these bugs. Also I think there should be a central instance (person) that sends out all update announcement. Another thing that I already suggested over a year ago is that all announcements should be GPG signed using a global Fedora or Red Hat key. Best regards. - -- Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Bernd Bartmann I.S. Security and Network Engineer SoHaNet Technology GmbH / Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee 10-11 / 10553 Berlin Fon: +49 30 214783-44 / Fax: +49 30 214783-46 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBqwtTkQuIaHu84cIRAlU3AJwPt6dvhIEpHcHSES9Ap4jWAiO9QwCfQybl L6dbBF4p4m4wVDWt09wLarM= =iEVA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Mon Nov 29 11:50:41 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:50:41 +0100 Subject: Suggestion for some network parameter defaults In-Reply-To: <20041129124014.11380474@nausicaa.camperquake.de> References: <20041129124014.11380474@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <20041129125041.13dab139@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Hi. Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > net.ipv4.conf.all.rp_filter (current: 0, proposed: 1) This already has the proposed value, sorry for that. -- If the U.S. government has no knowledge of aliens, then why does Title 14, Section 1211 of the Code of Federal Regulations, implemented on July 16, 1969, make it illegal for U.S. citizens to have any contact with extraterrestrials or their vehicles? From troels at arvin.dk Mon Nov 29 11:51:22 2004 From: troels at arvin.dk (Troels Arvin) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:51:22 +0100 Subject: Suggestion for some network parameter defaults References: <20041129124014.11380474@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:40:14 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > net.ipv4.conf.all.rp_filter (current: 0, proposed: 1) 1 is already the default in /etc/sysctl.conf although it's set as net.ipv4.conf.default.rp_filter which should be the right way, as far as I know. sysctl.conf is part of the "initscripts" package. > net.ipv4.conf.all.accept_redirects (current: 1, proposed: 0) I don't have an opinon on this one, so for me, it's OK to use the kernel's default value. > net.ipv4.icmp_echo_ignore_broadcasts (current: 0, proposed: 1) I actually find it useful that ping broadcasts are allowed, to be able to quickly see which hosts are up. > net.ipv4.icmp_ignore_bogus_error_responses (current: 0, proposed: 1) No opinion. -- Greetings from Troels Arvin, Copenhagen, Denmark From alan at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 12:15:52 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:15:52 -0500 Subject: Suggestion for some network parameter defaults In-Reply-To: References: <20041129124014.11380474@nausicaa.camperquake.de> Message-ID: <20041129121552.GB7525@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 12:51:22PM +0100, Troels Arvin wrote: > > net.ipv4.icmp_echo_ignore_broadcasts (current: 0, proposed: 1) > > I actually find it useful that ping broadcasts are allowed, to be able to > quickly see which hosts are up. It can get used as a DDoS amplifier however so in general its only safe if it is behind a firewall From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon Nov 29 12:28:45 2004 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:28:45 -0600 Subject: Fedora Extras for FC3? In-Reply-To: <20041129093724.7cd07669.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1101674283.4528.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101678688.24230.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <1101697032.8595.1.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> <20041129093724.7cd07669.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <1101731325.9584.1.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 09:37 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > > Old news to those who subscribe to this list. It might be more > > effective to just put a blurb about Extras on the webpage. Even a > > simple link to the post in the archives would suffice. Any webmasters > > listening out there? > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg01170.html Yes, I have read that. I suggested putting the link on the webpage. Just sending it to the list again doesn't really accomplish anything. josh From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon Nov 29 12:34:16 2004 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:34:16 -0600 Subject: Fedora Extras for FC3? In-Reply-To: <1101718053.15163.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101674283.4528.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101678688.24230.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <1101697032.8595.1.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> <1101718053.15163.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101731656.9584.8.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 16:47 +0800, Colin Charles wrote: > On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 20:57 -0600, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > This is old news, read the archives of the list. > > > > Old news to those who subscribe to this list. It might be more > > effective to just put a blurb about Extras on the webpage. Even a > > simple link to the post in the archives would suffice. Any webmasters > > listening out there? > > Actually, it's been on the Wiki for quite some time: > > http://www.fedora.us/wiki/FedoraHOWTO > > And I just fixed the other copy of the wiki (the new wiki) too: > > http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/wiki/index.cgi/Extras_2fFedoraHOWTO > > So, its been on the website The fedora.us website, sure. But where is the link to the wiki from the fedora.redhat.com site? I'm thinking like a total newbie here... It's probably not worth arguing over. I've asked for the CVS section of the fedora.redhat.com website to be updated before to just reflect that CVS access isn't available as of FC2, and that didn't happen either. josh From buildsys at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 12:50:10 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:50:10 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041129 changes Message-ID: <200411291250.iATCoA122539@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: lvm2-2.00.29-1.2 ---------------- * Sun Nov 28 2004 Alasdair Kergon - 2.00.29-1.2 - Try excluding more archs. * Sat Nov 27 2004 Alasdair Kergon - 2.00.29-1.1 - Exclude s390x which fails. * Sat Nov 27 2004 Alasdair Kergon - 2.00.29-1 - Fix last fix. memtest86+-1.40-1 ----------------- * Sun Nov 28 2004 Warren Togami - 1.40-1 - 1.40 - remove arch patch, now upstream openoffice.org-1.1.2-14.7 ------------------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Dan Williams - 1.1.2-14 - #rh129719# Upstream indic translations need to be incorporated into OOo packages (Fix transex3 to not screw up the merges) - #rh136990# Backspace fails after IIIMF input - Sort and prune duplicate entries from dictionary.lst file * Tue Nov 23 2004 Dan Williams - 1.1.2-13 - #rh109628# Font 'Symbol' not displayed correctly (Caolan) - #rh129719# Upstream indic translations need to be incorporated into OOo packages (Actually merge the translations this time) - Accomodate gcc 3.2.3 on gcc 3.4 systems (ie, RHEL4) rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041129 --------------------------- spamassassin-3.0.1-0.FC3 ------------------------ * Sun Oct 31 2004 Warren Togami - 3.0.1-0.FC3 - 3.0.1 From nbargnesi at den-4.com Mon Nov 29 12:50:29 2004 From: nbargnesi at den-4.com (Nick Bargnesi) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:50:29 -0500 Subject: Firefox fonts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1101732629.3624.1.camel@eliwood> Use the gtk-qt engine: http://www.freedesktop.org/Software/gtk-qt Adds an option to the kcontrol center to use qt style and qt fonts in gtk. -Nick On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 08:58 -0200, Avi Alkalay wrote: > Somebody knows how to make Gnome apps (firefox) to use the Gnome font > settings (and others like themes, etc) while on a KDE session? > > Thanks, > Avi > From avibrazil at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 13:13:01 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:13:01 -0200 Subject: Firefox fonts In-Reply-To: <1101732629.3624.1.camel@eliwood> References: <1101732629.3624.1.camel@eliwood> Message-ID: Any FC3 RPMs available ? On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:50:29 -0500, Nick Bargnesi wrote: > Use the gtk-qt engine: > http://www.freedesktop.org/Software/gtk-qt > Adds an option to the kcontrol center to use qt style and qt fonts in > gtk. > -Nick > > > > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 08:58 -0200, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > Somebody knows how to make Gnome apps (firefox) to use the Gnome font > > settings (and others like themes, etc) while on a KDE session? > > > > Thanks, > > Avi From casimiro.barreto at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 13:21:56 2004 From: casimiro.barreto at gmail.com (casimiro barreto) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:21:56 -0200 Subject: Where can I find kernel.2.6.9-1.681_FC3.src.rpm ? Message-ID: <578ed59104112905217c23278a@mail.gmail.com> Where can I find kernel-2.6.9-1.681_FC3.src.rpm ? [ ]s Casimiro -- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions. From mlauterbach at mail.wtamu.edu Mon Nov 29 13:28:51 2004 From: mlauterbach at mail.wtamu.edu (Matthew E. Lauterbach) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:28:51 -0600 Subject: Where can I find kernel.2.6.9-1.681_FC3.src.rpm ? In-Reply-To: <578ed59104112905217c23278a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041129132849.C28953E64AF@mail.wtamu.edu> On Monday, November 29, 2004 7:22 AM, casimiro barreto wrote: > Where can I find kernel-2.6.9-1.681_FC3.src.rpm ? http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/3/SRPMS/kern el-2.6.9-1.681_FC3.src.rpm Matthew E. Lauterbach From rdieter at math.unl.edu Mon Nov 29 13:32:13 2004 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:32:13 -0600 Subject: Firefox fonts In-Reply-To: References: <1101732629.3624.1.camel@eliwood> Message-ID: <41AB24DD.70000@math.unl.edu> gtk-qt-0.41 is already in Fedora Extras (testing), with an update to 0.50 pending: http://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=2035 Also, the latest is already included in the packages available from http://kde-redhat.sf.net/ -- Rex Avi Alkalay wrote: > Any FC3 RPMs available ? > > > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:50:29 -0500, Nick Bargnesi wrote: > >>Use the gtk-qt engine: >>http://www.freedesktop.org/Software/gtk-qt >>Adds an option to the kcontrol center to use qt style and qt fonts in >>gtk. >>-Nick From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Nov 29 14:10:27 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:10:27 +0800 Subject: Fedora Extras for FC3? In-Reply-To: <1101731656.9584.8.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1101674283.4528.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101678688.24230.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <1101697032.8595.1.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> <1101718053.15163.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101731656.9584.8.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1101737427.15163.117.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 06:34 -0600, Josh Boyer wrote: > > So, its been on the website > > The fedora.us website, sure. But where is the link to the wiki from the > fedora.redhat.com site? I'm thinking like a total newbie here... Ok, fair enough, we have things we need to work on > It's probably not worth arguing over. I've asked for the CVS section of > the fedora.redhat.com website to be updated before to just reflect that > CVS access isn't available as of FC2, and that didn't happen either. Bugzilla is a good way to get attention, but thanks for the constructive comments Josh, we'll take a closer look at how this can be further improved -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From NOS at Utel.no Mon Nov 29 14:35:15 2004 From: NOS at Utel.no (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Nils_O=2E_Sel=E5sdal=22?=) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:35:15 +0100 Subject: Suggestion for some network parameter defaults In-Reply-To: <000701c4d608$f195df30$14aaa8c0@utelsystems.local> References: <000701c4d608$f195df30$14aaa8c0@utelsystems.local> Message-ID: <41AB33A3.5010506@Utel.no> Ralf Ertzinger wrote: > Hi. > > I have been using the following changes to some network parameters on all > of my machines for a long time, and I was wondering whether they ought to > be set by default. > > net.ipv4.conf.all.accept_redirects (current: 1, proposed: 0) Any good reason for this ? I find it nice if a router tells me to send stuff elsewhere rather. > net.ipv4.icmp_echo_ignore_broadcasts (current: 0, proposed: 1) And this ? From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 14:50:59 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:50:59 -0500 Subject: Missing update advisories In-Reply-To: <41AB0B53.5060403@sohanet.de> References: <41A264DE.9090202@sohanet.de> <604aa7910411221712528be@mail.gmail.com> <41AB0B53.5060403@sohanet.de> Message-ID: <604aa791041129065096a1a69@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:43:15 +0100, Bernd Bartmann wrote: > As such script doesn't seem to exist yet what do think of just opening > something like the tracker bug for FC3 where we add all the missing > update announcements. This means adding a separate bug to each package > without update announcement and using this as an blocker for the tracker > bug. If this looks ok to you I can volunteer and add these bugs. Getting individual bug reports against each component is the goal... but security issues makes the use of a tracking bug tricky. There will be circumstances that will require bugs to be marked as private. Having a tracking bug for missing annoucements could very well mean the tracking bug itself will have to be marked private....defeating the point of the trackiing bug. Individual bug reports to components, aren't as tricky... the package maintainer can mark individual reports as private if need be without impacting other components. > Also I think there should be a central instance (person) that sends out > all update announcement. Another thing that I already suggested over a > year ago is that all announcements should be GPG signed using a global > Fedora or Red Hat key. This requires automation in the build process and how maintainers interact with the build system and how you define a build master individual or automated signing. I think there has been great reluctance to work on this part of the build system until after Fedora Extras officially launches.. in order to prevent having to redo this again once contributor updates start flowing. I'm pretty sure other people recognize something along these lines has to be done.. but the focus has been on getting the build system opened up for non Red Hat contributors. Once this happens... I hope internal efforts can be refocused on identifying several rougher aspects of the red hat and contributor build process including annoucement generation that need some automation love. I personally see the only garunteed solution for annoucements is to demand annoucement text be in the system when a package maintain submits a build to be an update. And such an annoucement requirement will have to be flexible enough to take into account security embargos so that an annoucement text can be requested to show up on a certain date...after the package is in the update tree if need be. This is the only way to prevent packagers from forgetting about annoucement text generation. Right now, its not so tough to find a red hat employee to beat up on another red hat employee if you have access to any red hat people on a daily basis. But in the future... for fedora extras.. its going to be much harder to get access to far flung contributors who are using the same build process as Core maintainers. And i think people realize the problem exists and I hope they realize it will get worse once contributors can start spinning up packages into extras from the same build system. But any real process solution, is going to have to fit inside the details of the contributor build process.. which isn't finalized. Its just one of those situations where the problem is obvious, and the potential solution space is very wide.. but all specific constraints aren't in place yet to build a workable implementation that fits the larger process. -jef From nbargnesi at den-4.com Mon Nov 29 14:50:59 2004 From: nbargnesi at den-4.com (nbargnesi at den-4.com) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:50:59 -0600 Subject: Firefox fonts In-Reply-To: References: <1101732629.3624.1.camel@eliwood> Message-ID: <1101739859.41ab3753c3d35@email.ixwebhosting.com> Not that I'm aware of. But it builds fine from source, even on x86_64 machines. On x86, use "./configure --prefix=/usr", and on x86_64 I believe I used, "./configure --prefix=/usr --libdir=/usr/lib64 --enable-libsuffix=64". -Nick Quoting Avi Alkalay : > Any FC3 RPMs available ? > > > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:50:29 -0500, Nick Bargnesi > wrote: > > Use the gtk-qt engine: > > http://www.freedesktop.org/Software/gtk-qt > > Adds an option to the kcontrol center to use qt style and qt fonts in > > gtk. > > -Nick > > > > > > > > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 08:58 -0200, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > > Somebody knows how to make Gnome apps (firefox) to use the Gnome font > > > settings (and others like themes, etc) while on a KDE session? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Avi > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > From fedora-devel at camperquake.de Mon Nov 29 14:56:00 2004 From: fedora-devel at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:56:00 +0100 Subject: Suggestion for some network parameter defaults In-Reply-To: <41AB33A3.5010506@Utel.no>; from NOS@Utel.no on Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 03:35:15PM +0100 References: <000701c4d608$f195df30$14aaa8c0@utelsystems.local> <41AB33A3.5010506@Utel.no> Message-ID: <20041129155600.A337@ryoko.camperquake.de> On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 03:35:15PM +0100, "Nils O. Sel?sdal" wrote: > > net.ipv4.conf.all.accept_redirects (current: 1, proposed: 0) > Any good reason for this ? I find it nice if a router tells me to > send stuff elsewhere rather. I think the majority of installations has only one possible gateway. And serious failover solutions no not need this because they share the IP (and maybe even the MAC). I'd rather not have everyone mess with my routing table. > > net.ipv4.icmp_echo_ignore_broadcasts (current: 0, proposed: 1) > And this ? As I said, if you really need this, you can enable it. I just think that the majority does not need it (and as Alan already posted, it can be used to fool around.) From Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de Mon Nov 29 15:03:43 2004 From: Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de (Bernd Bartmann) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:03:43 +0100 Subject: Missing update advisories In-Reply-To: <604aa791041129065096a1a69@mail.gmail.com> References: <41A264DE.9090202@sohanet.de> <604aa7910411221712528be@mail.gmail.com> <41AB0B53.5060403@sohanet.de> <604aa791041129065096a1a69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41AB3A4F.2030802@sohanet.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeff Spaleta wrote: | On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:43:15 +0100, Bernd Bartmann | wrote: | |>As such script doesn't seem to exist yet what do think of just opening |>something like the tracker bug for FC3 where we add all the missing |>update announcements. This means adding a separate bug to each package |>without update announcement and using this as an blocker for the tracker |>bug. If this looks ok to you I can volunteer and add these bugs. | | | Getting individual bug reports against each component is the goal... | but security issues | makes the use of a tracking bug tricky. There will be circumstances | that will require bugs to be marked as private. Having a tracking bug | for missing annoucements could very well mean the tracking bug itself | will have to be marked private....defeating the point of the trackiing | bug. Individual bug reports to components, aren't as tricky... the | package maintainer can mark individual reports as private if need be | without impacting other components. | | |>Also I think there should be a central instance (person) that sends out |>all update announcement. Another thing that I already suggested over a |>year ago is that all announcements should be GPG signed using a global |>Fedora or Red Hat key. | | | This requires automation in the build process and how maintainers | interact with the build system and how you define a build master | individual or automated signing. I think there has been great | reluctance to work on this part of the build system until after Fedora | Extras officially launches.. in order to prevent having to redo this | again once contributor updates start flowing. I'm pretty sure other | people recognize something along these lines has to be done.. but the | focus has been on getting the build system opened up for non Red Hat | contributors. Once this happens... I hope internal efforts can be | refocused on identifying several rougher aspects of the red hat and | contributor build process including annoucement generation that need | some automation love. | | I personally see the only garunteed solution for annoucements is to | demand annoucement text be in the system when a package maintain | submits a build to be an update. And such an annoucement requirement | will have to be flexible enough to take into account security embargos | so that an annoucement text can be requested to show up on a certain | date...after the package is in the update tree if need be. This is | the only way to prevent packagers from forgetting about annoucement | text generation. Right now, its not so tough to find a red hat | employee to beat up on another red hat employee if you have access to | any red hat people on a daily basis. But in the future... for fedora | extras.. its going to be much harder to get access to far flung | contributors who are using the same build process as Core maintainers. | And i think people realize the problem exists and I hope they realize | it will get worse once contributors can start spinning up packages | into extras from the same build system. But any real process solution, | is going to have to fit inside the details of the contributor build | process.. which isn't finalized. Its just one of those situations | where the problem is obvious, and the potential solution space is | very wide.. but all specific constraints aren't in place yet to build | a workable implementation that fits the larger process. Jeff, this is all nice and your broader view for future things to come is good too, but right now I only care about all the updates that were already released and haven't seen any announcement yet. Best regards. - -- Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Bernd Bartmann I.S. Security and Network Engineer SoHaNet Technology GmbH / Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee 10-11 / 10553 Berlin Fon: +49 30 214783-44 / Fax: +49 30 214783-46 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBqzpPkQuIaHu84cIRArXtAJsHuyWNXV85tTV3S8lDJfar/MTmrQCdEUiZ Uk6DKRPkKmgcfDCYzIflcmU= =vS6s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From peter.backlund at home.se Mon Nov 29 15:28:12 2004 From: peter.backlund at home.se (Peter Backlund) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:28:12 +0100 Subject: Fine-tunign of Bluecurve QT theme Message-ID: <1101742092.31196.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello. I've just opened a general bug about the differences between the QT and Gtk Bluecurve styles, with a partial patch. The bug lists quite a few differences that I've found (xmag is your friend!). If there are any QT hackers on the list who are interested in helping out, please take a look at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=141125 Bye, Peter Backlund From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon Nov 29 15:33:31 2004 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:33:31 -0600 Subject: Fedora Extras for FC3? In-Reply-To: <1101737427.15163.117.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101674283.4528.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101678688.24230.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> <1101697032.8595.1.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> <1101718053.15163.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101731656.9584.8.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> <1101737427.15163.117.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101742411.9839.4.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 22:10 +0800, Colin Charles wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 06:34 -0600, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > > > > So, its been on the website > > > > The fedora.us website, sure. But where is the link to the wiki from the > > fedora.redhat.com site? I'm thinking like a total newbie here... > > Ok, fair enough, we have things we need to work on > > > It's probably not worth arguing over. I've asked for the CVS section of > > the fedora.redhat.com website to be updated before to just reflect that > > CVS access isn't available as of FC2, and that didn't happen either. > > Bugzilla is a good way to get attention, but thanks for the constructive > comments Josh, we'll take a closer look at how this can be further > improved Great, thanks. I (and probably others) would appreciate it. I'll try to remember bugzilla as well. And I just discovered the fedora-patches list too. My apologies if I came off a bit rough in my previous email. It was early and I hadn't had any coffee yet :). josh From nalin at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 15:40:18 2004 From: nalin at redhat.com (Nalin Dahyabhai) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:40:18 -0500 Subject: Please review this list of potentially missing .so symlinks. In-Reply-To: <604aa79104112715528cf5d4f@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79104112712286ce8f0a6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79104112715528cf5d4f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041129154018.GA20925@redhat.com> On Sat, Nov 27, 2004 at 06:52:56PM -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > liblber-2.2.so > libldap-2.2.so > libldap_r-2.2.so These don't need to be there. The shared library versioning is meant to have no effect on how you need to compile applications. > liblber.so > libldap_r.so These should be in openldap-devel, along with libldap.so. > libnss_db.so I'd think that's of dubious value, but glibc provides similar links for the NSS modules it includes, so not having them in nss_db is a bug. > libpthread.so This is in /usr/%{_lib}, even if the library lives under /%{_lib}. It can't be in /%{_lib} because the linker doesn't search that directory for libraries when you link applications (per "gcc -print-search-dirs"). > libpwdb.so The shared library to which this link would point is a compat package. Cheers, Nalin From otaylor at redhat.com Mon Nov 29 15:53:57 2004 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:53:57 -0500 Subject: Please review this list of potentially missing .so symlinks. In-Reply-To: References: <604aa79104112712286ce8f0a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1101743637.6891.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-11-27 at 21:27 +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > > libgmodule-1.2.so > > Do you have the glib1.2 development package installed? If so then this > does indeed look like an oversight. $ glib-config --libs gmodule -L/usr/lib -rdynamic -lgmodule -lglib -ldl $ ls -l /usr/lib/libgmodule.so lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 24 Oct 27 18:09 /usr/lib/libgmodule.so -> libgmodule-1.2.so.0.0.10 Regards, Owen (libglib and libgthread are done the same way, not sure why they didn't show up in the list but libgmodule did) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 16:30:20 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:30:20 -0500 Subject: Please review this list of potentially missing .so symlinks. In-Reply-To: <1101743637.6891.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa79104112712286ce8f0a6@mail.gmail.com> <1101743637.6891.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910411290830458a4ffa@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:53:57 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: > (libglib and libgthread are done the same way, not sure why they didn't > show up in the list but libgmodule did) more likely than not... because i'm an idiot. I think i based this email thread off a list from the next to last version of the script... buggy script included a few more false alarms than i intended. -jef From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net Mon Nov 29 16:36:47 2004 From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:36:47 +0100 Subject: Does anyone else experience occasionnal xfs crashes? In-Reply-To: <1099729693.6108.12.camel@otto.amantes> References: <20041104164747.27d5835d.thias@spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net> <1099729693.6108.12.camel@otto.amantes> Message-ID: <20041129173647.43534d93@python2> Thomas Vander Stichele wrote : > > For a few months now, I've been experiencing random xfs (the font > > server, not the filesystem ;-)) crashes on my laptop running FC Dev. As > > it was a system installed with FC back in January, which had run a > > binary distribution of XFree86 4.4RC (because the Radeon Mobility 9600 > > is not supported by 4.3), then upgraded to FC2, FC Dev and had plenty > > of custom fonts here and there, I didn't bother much to look for the > > problem. > > Me too. I've had this under FC2 ever since it came out. But I could > never figure out a good way of reproducing it. > > For me, additional symptoms where that some gtk1 apps (take, say, xmms > or vncviewer) suddenly were using a font like courier. At other times, > I had the same problem as you - the whole machine locking up, and only > logging in remotely and restarting xfs would help. > > It's quite maddening, since I never found a trigger for it allowing me > to reproduce it. But you're not seeing ghosts. I've opened a bug report about this : https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=141140 Speaking with some other Fedora Core users here in the office, I realized that _all_ of them had seen these symptoms at least once, but as they don't have the sufficient knowledge to troubleshoot the problem, their solution at the time was to restart their computer... Matthias -- Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/ Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Linux kernel 2.6.9-1.681_FC3.r300 Load : 1.42 1.19 1.62 From kyrre at solution-forge.net Mon Nov 29 20:49:27 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:49:27 +0100 Subject: Some bugs, where to file them? Message-ID: <1101761367.29565.15.camel@kyrre> I have had some difficulties with installing a box with a "RIVA128" gfx card. The install process itself goes all well. Problems turns up when it has finished installing packages (which took a couple of hours, using NFS... Dead-slow machine...), and reboots. When it has rebooted, it comes to a point where it says "configuring kernel parametres". And there it stops (i had it hanging there for a weekend, just to be shure. It was still hung when i got back on monday ;) Rigth before this happens, it tries to bring up RHGB, which fails miserably. But it fails, it don't chrash the box. Only way (i) have found to solve it, is to boot into single user (it does then get past the "configuring kernel parameters" without problems), and changing the driver from "nv" to "vesa". reboot gets up rhgb, but it still hangs there (or at least when it comes to firstboot). I i then kill power, boot it into single user mode, and *then* using "init 5" to get it up (twice - firstboot chrashes in the first atempt, taking the rest of the thing with it, but it don't happen again...), it works up to GDM. I can then shutdown and reboot and everything else (after fixing monitor resolution and refresh...) without problems. As far as i can see, this is more than one bug, and i don't know where to file'em. xorg? kudzu? firstboot? rhgb? kernel? Kyrre From mpeters at mac.com Mon Nov 29 18:19:36 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:19:36 +0000 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101724342.28290.83.camel@tux.lan> (from rbultje@ronald.bitfreak.net on Mon Nov 29 02:32:30 2004) References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101724342.28290.83.camel@tux.lan> Message-ID: <1101752376l.4582l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/29/2004 02:32:30 AM, Ronald S. Bultje wrote: > > If they were really serious about their efforts to set a foot into > the > world of free software, they'd make plugins (which don't even have to > be > GPL'ed, mind you!) available to play Realmedia content using > GStreamer. > I've even offered to write those plugins for them, for free (see the > GNOME d-d-l archives)! The whole GNOME and KDE desktop would suddenly > play realmedia files. Yes - that would be nice. I'm hoping for the day (it doesn't look like it's coming anytime soon) when Apple releases a fairplay plugin for GStreamer so that I don't have to jump through hoops to play iTMS songs in Linux. I like the iTMS music store, I'm not a huge customer, but I've spent about $200 there since the Windows launch, and I would buy more if I could play the songs in Linux (the OS I use 95+% of the time) without needing a burn/re-rip. I'm hoping for the day when divx.com releases a plugin that lets me play rented divx movies in Totem - already the GStreamer plugin for divx is quite good, The HD divx movie trailers play smoother for me in totem than they do on the same hardware in Windows. That may be more likely to happen, divx seems at least somewhat friendly to linux, with free periodic releases of their library including header files needed for developers. From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 21:14:07 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:14:07 -0500 Subject: Some bugs, where to file them? In-Reply-To: <1101761367.29565.15.camel@kyrre> References: <1101761367.29565.15.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <604aa79104112913144ec8528b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:49:27 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > I have had some difficulties with installing a box with a "RIVA128" gfx > card. > > The install process itself goes all well. Problems turns up when it has > finished installing packages (which took a couple of hours, using NFS... > Dead-slow machine...), and reboots. > > When it has rebooted, it comes to a point where it says "configuring > kernel parametres". And there it stops (i had it hanging there for a > weekend, just to be shure. It was still hung when i got back on monday > ;) did you try manually switching over to vt7 or vt8? Are you sure its hanging and not just failing to switch over to the X display correctly? You have to be careful... the kernel boot parameters quiet and rhgb change the level of information you get and where it goes. On boots that use quiet and rhgb, the last console text you see before switching over to the graphical startup is the kernel parameter line as you describe. If there is a problem with rhgb or if there is a problem switching over to to the graphical display, you don't necessarily expect to see anything else at the console. And you have to be careful interpreting what happens if firstboot is expected to run as well. If there is a display problem.. or a problem switching automatically to the graphical display.. firstboot could be running..sitting there... waiting for input from the user. And since firstboot runs as a script before the mingetty statements in inittab are parsed... its difficult to know if the system is really hanging or not... unless you attempt to login from a remote machine via ssh or something similar. It's difficult to know if your system really is hanging.. or if there is a small problem with the display drivers that is affecting X startup for rhgb and firstboot.. without some more information. Doing a fresh install and booting without the boot options quiet and rhgb would be interesting... to see if firstboot behaves without running rhgb. Similarly doing an install and preventing firstboot from running to see if X starts up correctly would be useful. -jef From rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net Mon Nov 29 21:47:29 2004 From: rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net (Ronald S. Bultje) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:47:29 +0100 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101752376l.4582l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101724342.28290.83.camel@tux.lan> <1101752376l.4582l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1101764849.9641.31.camel@tux.lan> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 19:19, Michael A. Peters wrote: [..] > I'm hoping for the day when divx.com releases a plugin that lets me > play rented divx movies in Totem - already the GStreamer plugin for > divx is quite good, The HD divx movie trailers play smoother for me in > totem than they do on the same hardware in Windows. That may be more > likely to happen, divx seems at least somewhat friendly to linux, with > free periodic releases of their library including header files needed > for developers. DivX has been a decent (not perfect, but still decent) Linux player so far. We're hoping that with the settlement of GStreamer as the default media component across desktops on the Linux platform, distributors like Apple will slowly start to pay attention to us. However, that's probably a multi-year thing. I wouldn't expect it to happen instantly. We'll have to live with the (legally questionable) hacks for now - stuff that unfortunately cannot be shipped in Fedora... :-(. Ronald -- Ronald S. Bultje From kyrre at solution-forge.net Mon Nov 29 21:50:50 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:50:50 +0100 Subject: Some bugs, where to file them? In-Reply-To: <604aa79104112913144ec8528b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1101761367.29565.15.camel@kyrre> <604aa79104112913144ec8528b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1101765050.29565.23.camel@kyrre> man, 29.11.2004 kl. 22.14 skrev Jeff Spaleta: > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:49:27 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > wrote: > > I have had some difficulties with installing a box with a "RIVA128" gfx > > card. > > > > The install process itself goes all well. Problems turns up when it has > > finished installing packages (which took a couple of hours, using NFS... > > Dead-slow machine...), and reboots. > > > > When it has rebooted, it comes to a point where it says "configuring > > kernel parametres". And there it stops (i had it hanging there for a > > weekend, just to be shure. It was still hung when i got back on monday > > ;) > > did you try manually switching over to vt7 or vt8? Yes. > Are you sure its > hanging and not just failing to switch over to the X display > correctly? You have to be careful... the kernel boot parameters > quiet and rhgb change the level of information you get and where it > goes. sure. I tried killing rhgb and single from the line, and it still got stuck. > On boots that use quiet and rhgb, the last console text you see before > switching over to the graphical startup is the kernel parameter line > as you describe. If there is a problem with rhgb or if there is a > problem switching over to to the graphical display, you don't > necessarily expect to see anything else at the console. > I tried to switch back and forth between different vt's. And HD activity stopped dead. > And you have to be careful interpreting what happens if firstboot is > expected to run as well. > If there is a display problem.. or a problem switching automatically > to the graphical display.. firstboot could be running..sitting > there... waiting for input from the user. It displayed a completely, hung (with a mouse cursor), gray screen. After switching to vesa. > And since firstboot runs as > a script before the mingetty statements in inittab are parsed... its > difficult to know if the system is really hanging or not... unless you > attempt to login from a remote machine via ssh or something similar. > > The machine survived firstboot. I was able to switch to vt1 and hit control-alt-delete, and it rebooted gracefully. > It's difficult to know if your system really is hanging.. or if there > is a small problem with the display drivers that is affecting X > startup for rhgb and firstboot.. without some more information. Doing > a fresh install and booting without the boot options quiet and rhgb > would be interesting... to see if firstboot behaves without running > rhgb. Similarly doing an install and preventing firstboot from running > to see if X starts up correctly would be useful. > > -jef An install takes 2? hours on this piss-crap machine. It is a 300 (200?) mhz IBM *APTIVA*. with 182 MB ram. *slow*. You won't know how much time it took to do an install when it still had 64 MB of RAM. But Anaconda's X11 gui worked all fine, over NFS and all. Just face it. It *is* (at least one) bug in there somewhere... Kyrre Ness Sj?b?k From kyrre at solution-forge.net Mon Nov 29 21:52:08 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:52:08 +0100 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101764849.9641.31.camel@tux.lan> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101724342.28290.83.camel@tux.lan> <1101752376l.4582l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101764849.9641.31.camel@tux.lan> Message-ID: <1101765128.29565.25.camel@kyrre> > However, that's probably a multi-year thing. I wouldn't expect it to > happen instantly. We'll have to live with the (legally questionable) > hacks for now - stuff that unfortunately cannot be shipped in Fedora... > :-(. Neither can a properitary, vendor-delivered codec. From warren at togami.com Mon Nov 29 21:55:59 2004 From: warren at togami.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:55:59 -1000 Subject: Fedora Extras for FC3? In-Reply-To: <1101678688.24230.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> References: <1101674283.4528.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101678688.24230.12.camel@stargrazer.home.awesomeplay.com> Message-ID: <41AB9AEF.5090904@togami.com> Meanwhile you can use FC2 Extras, which works with 99% of the packages. From Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de Mon Nov 29 22:01:46 2004 From: Bernd.Bartmann at sohanet.de (Bernd Bartmann) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:01:46 +0100 Subject: Missing update advisories In-Reply-To: <41AB3A4F.2030802@sohanet.de> References: <41A264DE.9090202@sohanet.de> <604aa7910411221712528be@mail.gmail.com> <41AB0B53.5060403@sohanet.de> <604aa791041129065096a1a69@mail.gmail.com> <41AB3A4F.2030802@sohanet.de> Message-ID: <41AB9C4A.2040205@sohanet.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bernd Bartmann wrote: | Jeff, this is all nice and your broader view for future things to come | is good too, but right now I only care about all the updates that were | already released and haven't seen any announcement yet. To get the ball rolling I've just entered bug reports for all missing announcements that were on my list. To get an overview I've also created tracker bugs for each FC release: FC1 bug #141259 FC2 bug #141258 FC3 bug #141256 Let's hope this is useful and wakes up some of the package maintainers. At least some of them are already answering to the bugs. Best regards. - -- Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Bernd Bartmann I.S. Security and Network Engineer SoHaNet Technology GmbH / Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee 10-11 / 10553 Berlin Fon: +49 30 214783-44 / Fax: +49 30 214783-46 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBq5xKkQuIaHu84cIRAiZ1AJwMnfP0Yk+G2ECGHy0+f6wp9LPL3ACggBH+ zNZujjJZAYm77lj3bpq9QlQ= =RgQT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kyrre at solution-forge.net Mon Nov 29 22:01:04 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:01:04 +0100 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101752376l.4582l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101724342.28290.83.camel@tux.lan> <1101752376l.4582l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1101765664.29565.35.camel@kyrre> man, 29.11.2004 kl. 19.19 skrev Michael A. Peters: > On 11/29/2004 02:32:30 AM, Ronald S. Bultje wrote: > > > > > If they were really serious about their efforts to set a foot into > > the > > world of free software, they'd make plugins (which don't even have to > > be > > GPL'ed, mind you!) available to play Realmedia content using > > GStreamer. > > I've even offered to write those plugins for them, for free (see the > > GNOME d-d-l archives)! The whole GNOME and KDE desktop would suddenly > > play realmedia files. > > Yes - that would be nice. > I'm hoping for the day (it doesn't look like it's coming anytime soon) > when Apple releases a fairplay plugin for GStreamer so that I don't > have to jump through hoops to play iTMS songs in Linux. > > I like the iTMS music store, I'm not a huge customer, but I've spent > about $200 there since the Windows launch, and I would buy more if I > could play the songs in Linux (the OS I use 95+% of the time) without > needing a burn/re-rip. > Ain't gonna happen. Linux and gstreamer is *open source*, which means anybody who want can hack their own perfect-digital-copying-of-audio thingy in below itunes. oops. What would probably be a better idea, is to come up with a free DRM codec (shrug) - probably something that could "wrap" around for instance theorea. It could be public/private key-based - and those "max hops" (max computer's you are allowed to use it on) could be provided by the hostkeys (as used by ssh etc.) Problem again is that it would be easy "hackable" because of its open-source nature, and therefore not likely to be adopted by the industry. This is exactly why m$ (etc) wants "secure (for the media) computing" - to shackle formats... And yes, Apple will have to follow if they want any business with DRM. (i.e. if they want to do any business with the recording/film/etc industry). What that would do to the (if i am not completely wrong) (today) free darwin kernel, i dont want to think about. From Philip.R.Schaffner at nasa.gov Mon Nov 29 22:14:41 2004 From: Philip.R.Schaffner at nasa.gov (Phil Schaffner) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:14:41 -0500 Subject: Some bugs, where to file them? In-Reply-To: <604aa79104112913144ec8528b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1101761367.29565.15.camel@kyrre> <604aa79104112913144ec8528b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1101766481.5631.6.camel@wx1.larc.nasa.gov> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 16:14 -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:49:27 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > wrote: > > I have had some difficulties with installing a box with a "RIVA128" gfx > > card. > > ... snip ... > > It's difficult to know if your system really is hanging.. or if there > is a small problem with the display drivers that is affecting X > startup for rhgb and firstboot.. without some more information. Doing > a fresh install and booting without the boot options quiet and rhgb > would be interesting... to see if firstboot behaves without running > rhgb. Similarly doing an install and preventing firstboot from running > to see if X starts up correctly would be useful. Might try booting to runlevel 3 (type "a" at grub boot screen, backspace to delete "rhgb quiet" then "3"), log in as root, and do # system-config-display --reconfig Check detected hardware carefully to make sure it matches yours. Phil From rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net Mon Nov 29 22:37:06 2004 From: rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net (Ronald S. Bultje) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:37:06 +0100 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101765128.29565.25.camel@kyrre> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101724342.28290.83.camel@tux.lan> <1101752376l.4582l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101764849.9641.31.camel@tux.lan> <1101765128.29565.25.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1101767825.9641.37.camel@tux.lan> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 22:52, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > Neither can a properitary, vendor-delivered codec. People ship Shockwave legally. Ronald -- Ronald S. Bultje From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 22:43:27 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:43:27 -0500 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101767825.9641.37.camel@tux.lan> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101724342.28290.83.camel@tux.lan> <1101752376l.4582l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101764849.9641.31.camel@tux.lan> <1101765128.29565.25.camel@kyrre> <1101767825.9641.37.camel@tux.lan> Message-ID: <604aa79104112914432250ffb1@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:37:06 +0100, Ronald S. Bultje wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 22:52, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > Neither can a properitary, vendor-delivered codec. > > People ship Shockwave legally. There are two issues one is legality and one is policy. If its deemed illegal by Red Hat legal to ship.. its not shipped in Core. If its deemed legal but it is not open source, current Fedora Core policy.. prevents it from shipping. The Core policy and mission is to distribute a fully open-source distribution. So even if a vendor produces a re-distributable closed source binary for a propretary codec.. its not going to be available as part of Core. -jef"doesn't suggest you hold your breath waiting for the policy to change"spaleta From pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to Mon Nov 29 23:23:51 2004 From: pri.rhl3 at iadonisi.to (Paul Iadonisi) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:23:51 -0500 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <604aa79104112914432250ffb1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101724342.28290.83.camel@tux.lan> <1101752376l.4582l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101764849.9641.31.camel@tux.lan> <1101765128.29565.25.camel@kyrre> <1101767825.9641.37.camel@tux.lan> <604aa79104112914432250ffb1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1101770631.21248.2.camel@va.local.linuxlobbyist.org> On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 17:43 -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: [snip] > -jef"doesn't suggest you hold your breath waiting for the policy to > change"spaleta And if you decide not to heed Jeff's advice here, you just may suffocate due to plenty of people like *me* lobbying *hard* to prevent that policy from ever being changed. ;-) -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets From christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 01:42:26 2004 From: christopher.hotchkiss at gmail.com (Christopher Hotchkiss) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:42:26 -0500 Subject: Latest kernels and megaraid module (was: Re: Boot poster challenge) In-Reply-To: <200411212215.18216.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <1100366319.8404.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200411211540.34929.symbiont@berlios.de> <200411212215.18216.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <7f48492a041129174242b17c8d@mail.gmail.com> Jumping off of this because it was never resolved. Is the megaraid modules included/supported anymore? FC3 doesn't use it during install, but FC2 did. Also all the newer kernels no longer have it. -- Christopher Hotchkiss (813)960-9273 http://www.post227.org From mpeters at mac.com Tue Nov 30 01:31:09 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:31:09 +0000 Subject: Gnome desktop and mime stuff help Message-ID: <1101778269l.26067l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> I'm searching for docs on the "right way" of doing Gnome desktop/mime etc. entries. I know that the "old way" (before update-desktop-database) still seems to work, either by accident or by design apps that don't use that command in %post still seem to function as intended. I'm trying to package something that has (at least one) a broken Makefile, as part of make install it want to cat stuff onto /etc/magic, / etc/gnome-vfs-mime-magic, amongst other things that cause to fail when built from a non root user - that I *think* are actually handled by update-desktop-database in the %post script. I do have a problem though - man update-desktop-database No manual entry for update-desktop-database :( Since it looks like I have to fix Makefiles anyway to build the package as an rpm, I'd like to try to do things the right way - I don't think even under gnome-2.4 that cat >> /etc/gnome-vfs-mime-magic was correct (which is what the Msakefile wants to do). http://www.freedesktop.org/Software/desktop-file-utils Not very helpful. Is there a helpful guide somewhere? -- Cheap Linux CD's http://mpeters.us/linux/ From mpeters at mac.com Tue Nov 30 02:22:13 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 02:22:13 +0000 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <604aa79104112914432250ffb1@mail.gmail.com> (from jspaleta@gmail.com on Mon Nov 29 14:43:27 2004) References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101724342.28290.83.camel@tux.lan> <1101752376l.4582l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101764849.9641.31.camel@tux.lan> <1101765128.29565.25.camel@kyrre> <1101767825.9641.37.camel@tux.lan> <604aa79104112914432250ffb1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1101781333l.4105l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/29/2004 02:43:27 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:37:06 +0100, Ronald S. Bultje > wrote: > > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 22:52, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > Neither can a properitary, vendor-delivered codec. > > > > People ship Shockwave legally. > > There are two issues one is legality and one is policy. > If its deemed illegal by Red Hat legal to ship.. its not shipped in > Core. > If its deemed legal but it is not open source, current Fedora Core > policy.. prevents it from shipping. To be honest that's fine by me - I don't mind downloading from a vendors site. Sure it would be nice if Fedora came with absolutely everything I wanted - but realistically it never will, even for software that does meet policy, and downloading from other sources is the reallity. And that's true with any desktop OS. From mpeters at mac.com Tue Nov 30 05:01:26 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:01:26 +0000 Subject: Gnome desktop and mime stuff help In-Reply-To: <1101778269l.26067l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> (from mpeters@mac.com on Mon Nov 29 17:31:09 2004) References: <1101778269l.26067l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1101790886l.24062l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/29/2004 05:31:09 PM, Michael A. Peters wrote: > I'm searching for docs on the "right way" of doing Gnome desktop/mime > etc. entries. I think I figured it out From quarlewm at jmu.edu Tue Nov 30 06:31:29 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:31:29 -0500 Subject: Pentium 4 and Athlon architecture optimizations in kernel In-Reply-To: <20041129003851.1299F7544D@mail.figaro.fr> References: <20041129003851.1299F7544D@mail.figaro.fr> Message-ID: Frank wrote: > Hallo, > >>I dropped my message into this old thread instead: >> >>Recent Fedora Core kernels (plus my SPEC file for 2.6.8-1.541 with >>Athlon support) >> >>Have fun. >> >>William > > Thankx. You now where these Specfiles are ? > > Because, this sounds very auspicious: I have no idea. I was citing the subject of a another thread, I have no claims to any spec file for a 2.6 kernel. I've never even touched nor networked to a computer that runs on a 2.6 kernel. Just look for the thread with that subject on the list. ---- Peace, William From quarlewm at jmu.edu Tue Nov 30 06:36:49 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:36:49 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <20041129093243.GC24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101718966.3518.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041129091635.GA24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101720611.3518.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041129093243.GC24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Arjan van de Ven wrote: > On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 01:30:11AM -0800, Nicholas Miell wrote: > >>But, if you're going to optimize for i686 or better for other reasons, > > we *already* optimize for i686 even in the i386 rpms Not in all of them. Mozilla's spec file does not include $RPM_OPT_FLAGS in any of the CFLAGS-type variables. I'm sure that there are several other packages like that. Somebody should fix that. ---- Peace, William From quarlewm at jmu.edu Tue Nov 30 06:40:06 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:40:06 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <1101721315.3518.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101718966.3518.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041129091635.GA24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101720611.3518.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20041129093243.GC24251@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101721315.3518.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Nicholas Miell wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 10:32 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote: > >>branch prediction on p4 actually takes hints from the compiler now ;) > > That turned out to be useless, Intel no longer recommends it (or even > documents it, IIRC). I'm not sure if gcc still generates the hints when > targeting P4s. > >>we *already* optimize for i686 even in the i386 rpms > > I meant in terms of using i686 specific instructions (i.e. SSE, SSE2, > etc.), not i686 instruction scheduling. SSE is not an i686 instruction set, it's a Pentium-III-and-better instruction set. SSE2 is Pentium-4-and-better. Other 9686 processors are not compatible with those instruction sets. I hope that you don't run into further problems over this when building packages. ---- Peace, William From quarlewm at jmu.edu Tue Nov 30 06:45:40 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:45:40 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <41AA8B3D.4010609@nc.rr.com> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <41AA8B3D.4010609@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: Jeff Johnson wrote: > > Changing "i386" in package file names everywhere is a great deal of pain > for > almost no gain imho. What's the pain? You aren't changing the filename, you are changing what architecture you compile for. You change the RPM configuration line for i486 to -march=i486 -mcpu=i686 or pentium4, whatever you guys are using now, and run rpmbuild. The filenames would automatically come out with i486 in them, the same way that they automatically come out with i386 in them. ---- Peace, William From quarlewm at jmu.edu Tue Nov 30 06:33:14 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:33:14 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: Arjan van de Ven wrote: > On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 19:46 -0500, William M. Quarles wrote: > > >>I would, but are there any free ways of doing benchmarks? Not to >>mention I'm not really much of a programmer, so I don't know what >>oprofile/gprof are. > > for what it's worth... cmov isn't faster on newer (pM/pIV/amd64 level) > CPUs than the open coded conditional jump anymore.... > so there no longer really is a reason to use cmov-only code. More terminology that I am not aware of... cmov? I know that I'm a novice about development, you don't have to further proove it to me. ---- Peace, William From ville.skytta at iki.fi Tue Nov 30 07:10:57 2004 From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Skytt=E4?=) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:10:57 +0200 Subject: Gnome desktop and mime stuff help In-Reply-To: <1101790886l.24062l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1101778269l.26067l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101790886l.24062l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: <1101798657.10113.0.camel@bobcat.mine.nu> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 05:01 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > On 11/29/2004 05:31:09 PM, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > I'm searching for docs on the "right way" of doing Gnome desktop/mime > > etc. entries. > > I think I figured it out Care to post some pointers here for future reference? From arjanv at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 07:28:36 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:28:36 +0100 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1101799715.2640.19.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 01:33 -0500, William M. Quarles wrote: > Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > > On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 19:46 -0500, William M. Quarles wrote: > > > > > >>I would, but are there any free ways of doing benchmarks? Not to > >>mention I'm not really much of a programmer, so I don't know what > >>oprofile/gprof are. > > > > for what it's worth... cmov isn't faster on newer (pM/pIV/amd64 level) > > CPUs than the open coded conditional jump anymore.... > > so there no longer really is a reason to use cmov-only code. > > More terminology that I am not aware of... cmov? cmov is a conditional move instruction on x86. Basically a C code construct like this if (some_condition == 5) A = B; normally gets translated into (pseudo asm) compare some_condition, 5 jump_if_not_equal label; move B into A label: ... the rest of the program the "jump_if_not_equal" instruction is a conditional instruction, which means that the cpu cannot look ahead and decide what the next instruction is, until the actual compare is finished. With the current deeply pipelined cpus that is sort of a problem (the solution is that the cpu makes a guess what it'll be based on past decisions for this line of code, and if wrong, it backtracks). Now with cmov, the code looks like compare some_condition, 5 move_if_equal B into A ... the rest of the program and in theory there is no question about which instructions will be executed when, so the "cost" of having an empty pipeline until the decision is known wouldn't be there. And that's mostly true for PPro/PII level CPUS. However, newer ones (both AMD and Intel) operate in such a way that the advantage of this no longer is an advantage, they need to know the result anyway in effect (and also make a guess about the "if" result) > I know that I'm a > novice about development, you don't have to further proove it to me. I absolutely don't mean it in that way. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From giallu at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 08:56:29 2004 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:56:29 +0100 Subject: Gnome desktop and mime stuff help In-Reply-To: <1101778269l.26067l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> References: <1101778269l.26067l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> Message-ID: Maybe slightly OT, but I found to be quite hard to switch the program associations desktop wise. For example, in my fresh FC3 install I have pdf files handled by ggv (not that I have something against it...) and I would like to change it for xpdf or gpdf. I think it is not really easy to change this association, at least without digging in the documentation (which, admittedly, I ususally ignore until this problems comes out...). Is there anything we can do for improving this area? Cheers Gianluca From mpeters at mac.com Tue Nov 30 09:34:53 2004 From: mpeters at mac.com (Michael A. Peters) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:34:53 +0000 Subject: Gnome desktop and mime stuff help In-Reply-To: <1101798657.10113.0.camel@bobcat.mine.nu> (from ville.skytta@iki.fi on Mon Nov 29 23:10:57 2004) References: <1101778269l.26067l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101790886l.24062l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101798657.10113.0.camel@bobcat.mine.nu> Message-ID: <1101807293l.4107l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> On 11/29/2004 11:10:57 PM, Ville Skytt? wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 05:01 +0000, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > On 11/29/2004 05:31:09 PM, Michael A. Peters wrote: > > > I'm searching for docs on the "right way" of doing Gnome > desktop/mime > > > etc. entries. > > > > I think I figured it out > > Care to post some pointers here for future reference? The Makefile was correct in what it wanted to do - since the stuff wasn't defined in /etc/gnome-vfs-mime-magic it needed to be added. Spec files I had looked at before didn't add anything to that because they were already in that file. Tilp isn't so lucky. It already was defined in /usr/share/file/magic (at least in fc3) So what I did was patched the Makefile that was causing problems to do nothing, had the %install section install the necessary pieces in /usr/ share/product/magic, and had the %post script check the files and do the Makefile wanted to do. %post # update magic stuff from broken Makefile MAGIC=/etc/magic GNOME_MAGIC=/etc/gnome-vfs-mime-magic KDE_MAGIC=/usr/share/mimelnk/magic if [ ! -f ${MAGIC} ]; then MAGIG=/usr/share/file/magic fi if [ -f ${MAGIC} ]; then # see if it needs updating if ! grep "\*\*TI85\*\*" ${MAGIC}; then cat %_datadir/tilp/magic/magic >> ${MAGIC} fi fi if [ -f ${GNOME_MAGIC} ]; then # see if it needs updating if ! grep "\*\*TI" ${GNOME_MAGIC}; then cat %_datadir/tilp/magic/gnome-vfs-mime-magic >> ${GNOME_MAGIC} fi fi if [ -f ${KDE_MAGIC} ]; then # see if it needs updating if ! grep "\*\*TI85" /usr/share/mimelnk/magic; then cat %_datadir/tilp/magic/kde.magic >> ${KDE_MAGIC} fi fi update-desktop-database %{_datadir}/applications That works - the package (tilp - linking software for Ti Calculators) is working as expected in GNOME (well, the SilverLink USB cable doesn't work, not even as root - complains that the device is busy) but it works just fine with the black serial link cable (as root after install, as user after adjusting /etc/security/console.perms) I don't have a KDE install to try there. -=- Another odd thing - it wanted to put itself into an "other" menu despite having the category set as Categories=Application;Accessories; I poked around in /usr/share/applications it seems to have it show up in Accessories, it needs to be Categories=Application;Utility;X-Red-Hat-Extra; which is odd - seems kind of distro specific. But when I patched the .desktop file to change the Category to that - it then showed up in the Accessories menu of the Application menu. From ahiliation at yahoo.co.in Tue Nov 30 11:03:33 2004 From: ahiliation at yahoo.co.in (Jeffrin Thalakkottoor) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:03:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bug Related. Message-ID: <20041130110333.17893.qmail@web8408.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hello All, Iam Will Start My Fisrt Message To This List With A Possible Bug File. It is Like This , The Keyboard Does Not Work On Somedays atleast for some time. This happens in our lab. All the Fedora core 2 Machine Shows The Same Problem. It Shows this Problem On Different Kernels. So It May Not be A kernel bug. It May not Be A Hardware Bug. Because This Problem Is Occuring with Machines in Different Hardware. Please help me to help my friends. ________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony From buildsys at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 12:56:27 2004 From: buildsys at redhat.com (Build System) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:56:27 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041130 changes Message-ID: <200411301256.iAUCuRx25782@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Updated Packages: MAKEDEV-3.16-1 -------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 3.16-1 - allow devices to be specified either as "device" or "devdir"[/]"device" - update to 22 November 2004 devices.txt: - add fuse - add ttyCPM,cucpm - add ttyIOC4,cuioc4 - rename user-mode block devices to avoid conflict with ub block device authconfig-4.6.6-1 ------------------ * Thu Nov 18 2004 Tomas Mraz - 4.6.6-1 - merged patches from dist - fix versioning bind-22:9.3.0-1 --------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Jason Vas Dias - 9.3.0-1 - Upgrade BIND to 9.3.0 in Rawhide / FC4 (bugs 134529, 133654...) * Mon Nov 29 2004 Jason Vas Dias - 20:9.2.4-4 - Fix bugs 140528 and 141113: - 2 second timeouts when IPv6 not configured and root nameserver's - AAAA addresses are queried boost-1.32.0-1 -------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Benjamin Kosnik 1.32.0-1 - Update to 1.32.0 - (#122817: libboost_*.so symlinks missing) coreutils-5.2.1-33 ------------------ * Thu Nov 25 2004 Tim Waugh 5.2.1-33 - Fixed colorls.csh (bug #139988). Patch from Miloslav Trmac. * Mon Nov 08 2004 Tim Waugh - Updated URL (bug #138279). emacs-21.3-19 ------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Jens Petersen - 21.3-19 - put XIM status under the window for now to stop httx from dying (125413): add emacs-xim-status-under-window-125413.patch - default diff to unified format in .emacs fonts-xorg-6.8.1.1-1 -------------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Mike A. Harris 6.8.1.1-1 - Updated main tarball to include lucidatypewriter fonts that were missing from X.Org X11 6.8.1, and renamed it to 6.8.1.1 to avoid multiple tarballs with same version but different contents, since it was updated with the new fonts. (#139108, 139121, fdo#1560) gamin-0.0.18-1 -------------- * Fri Nov 26 2004 Daniel Veillard 0.0.18-1 - still chasing the loop bug, checked and cleaned up all GList use - patch from markmc to minimize load on busy apps * Wed Oct 20 2004 Daniel Veillard 0.0.16-1 - chasing #132354, lot of debugging, checking and testing and a bit of refactoring * Sat Oct 16 2004 Daniel Veillard 0.0.15-1 - workaround to detect loops and avoid the nasty effects, see RedHat bug #132354 gcc-3.4.3-7 ----------- * Fri Nov 26 2004 Jakub Jelinek 3.4.3-7 - update from gcc-3_4-branch - PRs rtl-optimization/18614, rtl-optimization/14838, target/18263 - don't optimize printf/fprintf/__printf_chk/__fprintf_chk in any way if return value is not ignored - fix folding of abs (#140890) - fix ppc #pragma longcall (Alan Modra, PR target/18686) gcc4-4.0.0-0.13 --------------- * Sat Nov 27 2004 Jakub Jelinek 4.0.0-0.13 - update from trunk - change s390{,x} stack layout to work-around GCC 2.95.3 bug: former -mno-backchain (the default), -mbackchain and -mkernel-backchain options were transformed into (in order) -mno-backchain -mpacked-stack, -mbackchain -mno-packed-stack and -mbackchain -mpacked-stack. A new combination -mno-backchain -mno-packed-stack is now the new default (Andreas Krebbel, #139678) - don't optimize printf/fprintf/__printf_chk/__fprintf_chk in any way if return value is not ignored - some more libgcc_s.so.1 tweaks on ia64 * Fri Nov 12 2004 Jakub Jelinek 4.0.0-0.12 - update from trunk - make _Unwind_* symbols in libgcc_s.so.1 unversioned to match the "IA-64 Linux ABI" gnome-panel-2.8.1-6 ------------------- * Fri Nov 26 2004 Mark McLoughlin - 2.8.1-6 - Add patch to fix launcher animation artifact (bug #136938) gnome-vfs2-2.8.2-9 ------------------ * Thu Nov 25 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.8.2-9 - rebuild to fix broken dep on x86_64 (#140679) initscripts-8.00-1 ------------------ * Mon Nov 29 2004 Bill Nottingham 8.00-1 - fix previous fix (#139656) kdebase-6:3.3.1-12 ------------------ * Thu Nov 25 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-12 - add patch for kmenu large icons #140842 * Tue Nov 23 2004 Than Ngo 6:3.3.1-11 - the existing icon is lost, add patch to fix this problem #140196 kernel-2.6.9-1.1006_FC4 ----------------------- * Fri Nov 26 2004 Rik van Riel - add Xen kernels for i686, plus various bits and pieces to make them work openmotif-2.2.3-8.1 ------------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Thomas Woerner 2.2.3-8.1 - allow to write XPM files with absolute path names again (#140815) * Wed Nov 24 2004 Miloslav Trmac - 2.2.3-8 - Convert man pages to UTF-8 * Mon Nov 22 2004 Thomas Woerner 2.2.3-7 - latest Xpm patches: CAN-2004-0914 (#134631) - new patch for tmpnam in imake (only used for build) openssh-3.9p1-8.1 ----------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Thomas Woerner 3.9p1-8.1 - fixed PIE build for all architectures * Mon Oct 04 2004 Nalin Dahyabhai 3.9p1-8 - add a --enable-vendor-patchlevel option which allows a ShowPatchLevel option to enable display of a vendor patch level during version exchange (#120285) - configure with --disable-strip to build useful debuginfo subpackages pam-0.78-2 ---------- * Thu Nov 25 2004 Tomas Mraz 0.78-2 - add argument to pam_console_apply to restrict its work to specified files parted-1.6.19-1 --------------- * Sun Nov 28 2004 Jeremy Katz - 1.6.19-1 - update to 1.6.19 qt-1:3.3.3-15 ------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Than Ngo 1:3.3.3-15 - convert qdial.3qt to UTF-8 bug #140946 * Tue Nov 23 2004 Than Ngo 1:3.3.3-14 - add missing lupdate and lrelease #140230 * Fri Nov 19 2004 Than Ngo 1:3.3.3-13 - apply patch to fix qinputcontext rpmdb-fedora-1:4-0.20041130 --------------------------- selinux-policy-strict-1.19.6-1 ------------------------------ * Wed Nov 24 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-6-1 - Update to Upstream * Wed Nov 24 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-5-1 - Update to Upstream - Convert to new network_macros.te selinux-policy-targeted-1.19.6-1 -------------------------------- * Wed Nov 24 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-6-1 - Update to Upstream * Wed Nov 24 2004 Dan Walsh 1.19-5-1 - Update to Upstream - Convert to new network_macros.te slrn-0.9.8.1-2 -------------- * Fri Nov 26 2004 Jindrich Novy 0.9.8.1-2 - include translations to srln package (#140870) - remove upstreamed patches system-config-date-1.7.14-1 --------------------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Nils Philippsen 1.7.14-1 - bump version * Fri Nov 26 2004 Nils Philippsen - don't use duplicate accelerators (#134172, #140241) tzdata-2004g-1 -------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Jakub Jelinek 2004g-1 - 2004g (#141107) - updates for Cuba util-linux-2.12a-18 ------------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Steve Dickson - Made NFS mounts adhere to the IP protocol if specified on command line as well as made NFS umounts adhere to the current IP protocol. Fix #140016 xorg-x11-6.8.1-20 ----------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Mike A. Harris 6.8.1-20 - Disabled with_fonts again - Added xorg-x11-6.8.1-xpm-security-fixes-CAN-2004-0914-sec8-ammendment.patch to fix bugs introduced into libXpm in the previous security patch for CAN-2004-0914 which cause gimp to fail to save Xpm files (#140815, 141047, fdo#1924) * Mon Nov 29 2004 Kristian H??gsberg - Update xorg-x11-6.8.1-ati-radeon-7000-smp-lockup.patch to the new patch from Alex Deucher , provided in https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1912. * Tue Nov 23 2004 Mike A. Harris 6.8.1-19.with_fonts.0 - Enabled with_fonts for a single build, to update fonts-xorg package xpdf-1:3.00-13 -------------- * Mon Nov 29 2004 Than Ngo 1:3.00-13 - set match as default psPaperSize #141131 xscreensaver-1:4.18-13 ---------------------- * Fri Nov 26 2004 Than Ngo 1:4.18-13 - add patch to fix vroot bug and make xscreensaver working in KDE again. - get rid of webcollage, which often download porn images yum-2.1.12-1 ------------ * Mon Nov 29 2004 Jeremy Katz - 2.1.12-1 - update to 2.1.12 - add hack from jbj to workaround python 2.4 urllib breakage (#138535) From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 13:25:09 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:25:09 -0300 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) Message-ID: For people that still don't know the Elektra Project (http://elektra.sourceforge.net), it provides an alternative back-end for text configuration files. So instead, for example, the human-readable-only xorg.conf file, we'll have a hierarchy of key/value pairs easily and precisely accessible by X.org and also any other programs through an API or command, and human beings too. Same concept as GConf, but designed for system-wide use. We've been working on X.org source code to do exactly what we just described above. And it is ready for use, tested even with very complex X.org configurations. A patched X server will convert your xorg.conf file automatically, even the most complex ones, including non-documented parameters. It is available at http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=117521 http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=117521&package_id=136552 You'll find there the patch against X.org source, the patch against Fedora Core 3 RPM spec file (to see how to build it), and the README file, which is pasted in this e-mail bellow. We'll write patches for other software, and everybody is invited to join this integration effort. Thank you, Avi Alkalay Elektra Project ----------------------README------------------------- ELEKTRIFIED X.ORG: PRECISE AND PROGRAMATICALY EASY X CONFIGURATION Your X server has to work with your installed video card, monitor, find your font server and dirs, modules, extensions, drivers, plugins. You have to tell him how to integrate it all through its xorg.conf file. If you need to change something, you start a text editor and use your human brain and eyes to find the correct line, understand it, have the skills to change it, and change it in order to work. This is good for advanced technical guys, but very bad for people that don't have this skills, and in fact, don't really want to. He just wants to change the screen resolution to make that projector work with his laptop, and go ahead with his sales presentation. This is just an example. The point is: it is very difficult to make simple programs or scripts that make simple changes to X configuration. Another example is a monitor vendor that wants to support X, and for this he'd like to provide easy installation of his product, without having to ask his user to read documentation about horizontal Sync, and vertical refresh rates. For him again is difficult to write some simple software that preciselly changes X configuration to work correctly with his product. The xorg.conf file (as most Unix configuration files) was designed for human beings. The Elektra Project (http://elektra.sourceforge.net) introduces a new way to handle configurations through a clean API (or command line tool) that accesses atomic configuration data, into a standarized hierarchycal tree of key-value pairs. It is similar to GConf, but designed for system-wide use, which also implies it does not have dependencies. And this is what this patch is about: to make the X server look for its configurations into a machine-ready tree of key-value pairs, instead of the human-ready xorg.conf. So where you had to look for "Device radeon" into a "Section Device", with the key/value tree, X and other programs can look for it preciselly at system/sw/xorg/current/Devices/Videocard0/Driver = radeon Where you once had to "vi" your "Section Monitor", now X and other programs can do it accessing the keys: system/sw/xorg/current/Monitors/Monitor0/HorizSync = 31.5 - 48.5 system/sw/xorg/current/Monitors/Monitor0/VertRefresh = 40.0 - 70.0 system/sw/xorg/current/Monitors/Monitor0/ModelName = IBM T40 LCD Panel system/sw/xorg/current/Monitors/Monitor0/VendorName = IBM system/sw/xorg/current/Monitors/Monitor0/Options/dpms Where once the salesman above had to "vi" the Screen Section to change the resolution, color depth, etc, a program can help him accessing: system/sw/xorg/current/Screens/Screen0/Displays/00/Depth=24 system/sw/xorg/current/Screens/Screen0/Displays/00/Modes=1024x768 And so on.... We believe an elektrified X server can leverage more plug-and-play configurations, providing configuration power to HW vendors in a very simple way, and making users experience less painfull. BEHAVIOR OF AN ELEKTRIFIED X SERVER A patched X server will look for its configuration keys under the namespace: system/sw/xorg/current first, then if not found it tries system/sw/xorg If not found, it will default to some xorg.conf file, parse it, and store in its internal structures, then convert and commit it to a set of keys under system/sw/xorg/current, and reload these keys. So you get automatic one-time conversion from xorg.conf to the hierarchycal configuration key/value pairs Very complex examples of xorg.conf files were tested for conversion. Even undocumented configuration parameters (because the original source was used as the reference). The Elektrifyied X server also works for the Red Hat Graphical Boot, where you still don't have mounted partitions, network, etc. ELEKTRIFING X.ORG You'll need the elektra-devel package installed in order to build X with Elektra support. 1. Download and unpack X.org source code from 2. Download the xorg-x11-6.8.1-elektra.patch file from http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=117521&package_id=136552 3. Apply it: ~/src/xc$ cd .. ~/src$ patch -p0 < xorg-x11-6.8.1-elektra.patch ~/src$ cd xc ~/src/xc$ # ...configure your build in host.def 4. Enable the patch: ~/src/xc$ echo "#define UseElektra" >> config/cf/host.def 5. Build X.Org You'll find the new X server as file xc/programs/Xserver/Xorg . The patch will add the following files: xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/parser/ elektra.h (exported methods) elektra.c (key fetching and X structs integration business logic) xorg-example.conf (a very complex conf file to test conversion) xelektrify.c (cmd to convert xorg.conf->keys and vice-versa) README.Elektra (this file) And it will instrument xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/common/xf86Config.c::xf86HandleConfigFile() to trigger the one-time conversion, and key fetching logic. And instrument the Imakefiles for correct builds: xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/parser/Imakefile xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/common/Imakefile xc/programs/Xserver/Imakefile If "#define UseElektra" is not present in host.def, the patch is completelly disabled, and you'll get a binary-identicall built as before applying the patch. All patched code are surrounded by #ifdefs. ELEKTRA MEETS X.ORG SOURCE CODE or how we wrote the patch.... X.org has an xorg.conf parser that takes this steps to handle configuration: 1. Lexically parse the xorg.conf file 2. Put each Section info in an equivalent struct 3. Encapsulate all structs together and pass them to a validator 4. Use structs to define X behavior This process is triggered by the xf86HandleConfigFile() method from xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/common/xf86Config.c Each xorg.conf Section has an equivalent structure defined in xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/parser/xf86Parser.h and the lexycall analyzer code to parse each Section is under xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/parser/ A fully parsed file has its equivalent structures encapsulated in a parent XF86Config struct. We have: struct XF86ConfModuleRec for the "Section Modules" struct XF86ConfMonitorRec for the "Section Monitor" struct XF86ConfDeviceRec for the "Section Device" etc... These structs are a pure computer representation of the text in each Section, so the methods under "parser/" convert text to structs, and the structs to text. This is how original X.org source handles xorg.conf. The Elektrification add methods that act in steps 1 and 2 above. And also include methods to convert each struct to a KeySet. Both old (xorg.conf) and new (Elektra) ways to get configuration information can live together and they are actually used to automatically convert xorg.conf to keys. So at the first time you'll run your elektrified X server, it will: 1. Not find configuration keys (because it is the first time) 2. Parse xorg.conf into structs 3. Convert structs to Keys 4. Commit the keys to key database 5. Reload configurations from the key database See the behavior in the previous section. After assembling the XF86Config C structure, X will decode all its info into more practicall parameters for its further operation. As a side note, with a key/value pair configuration hierarchy paradigm, the XF86Config assembling code (the parser) could be avoided, making X look for its configurations in a programatically easier, yet human-readable, configuration organization. We worked at the parser level to keep compatibility and to not go too deep in X.org source code. http://elektra.sourceforge.net The Elektra Project Avi Alkalay November 2004 From strange at nsk.no-ip.org Tue Nov 30 13:32:38 2004 From: strange at nsk.no-ip.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:32:38 +0000 Subject: wrong buildrequires in pango-1.6.0-7 Message-ID: <20041130133238.GA2208@nsk.no-ip.org> Hello, pango-1.6.0-7.src.rpm, in rawhide (I assume it's the same in FC3) has a BuildRequires: xorg-x11-devel >= 4.2.99 OTOH, the -devel package has a Requires: XFree86-devel >= 4.2.99 FC3 ships with xorg-x11-devel 6.8.1, so, obviously, it satisfies the BuildRequires. YDL 4 still uses 0.0.6.6-0.0.2004_03_11.9, that does provide "XFree86-devel = 4.4.0", but not xorg-x11-devel >= 4.2.99. As there never was a xorg-x11 4.2.99, and the devel package specifies XFree86, I guess the BuildRequires line should be changed to "XFree86-devel >= 4.2.99", no? Regards, Luciano Rocha -- Consciousness: that annoying time between naps. From otaylor at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 14:23:32 2004 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:23:32 -0500 Subject: wrong buildrequires in pango-1.6.0-7 In-Reply-To: <20041130133238.GA2208@nsk.no-ip.org> References: <20041130133238.GA2208@nsk.no-ip.org> Message-ID: <1101824612.5157.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 13:32 +0000, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > Hello, > > pango-1.6.0-7.src.rpm, in rawhide (I assume it's the same in FC3) has > a BuildRequires: xorg-x11-devel >= 4.2.99 > > OTOH, the -devel package has a Requires: XFree86-devel >= 4.2.99 > > FC3 ships with xorg-x11-devel 6.8.1, so, obviously, it satisfies the > BuildRequires. YDL 4 still uses 0.0.6.6-0.0.2004_03_11.9, that does provide > "XFree86-devel = 4.4.0", but not xorg-x11-devel >= 4.2.99. > > As there never was a xorg-x11 4.2.99, and the devel package specifies > XFree86, I guess the BuildRequires line should be changed to > "XFree86-devel >= 4.2.99", no? Certainly file a bug. Though I almost certainly will change the requires to be on xorg-x11-devel with a recent version... my general policy is that if I touch a Requires or a BuildRequires I'll update it to something I'm pretty sure has been tested, and I haven't tested recent Pango versions with XFree86-4.3.0. Regards, Owen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pnasrat at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 14:32:32 2004 From: pnasrat at redhat.com (Paul Nasrat) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:32:32 -0500 Subject: Bug Related. In-Reply-To: <20041130110333.17893.qmail@web8408.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20041130110333.17893.qmail@web8408.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041130143231.GB29451@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 11:03:33AM +0000, Jeffrin Thalakkottoor wrote: > Hello All, > > Iam Will Start My Fisrt Message To This List With > A Possible Bug File. Bugs need to go in bugzilla. With actual details about your hardware setup for things like this. Eg are you using a KVM, etc. Paul From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 14:49:13 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:49:13 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 10:25:09AM -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > The xorg.conf file (as most Unix configuration files) was designed for > human beings. It was designed for both humans and software and includes a bundled library for working with the file itself. > The Elektrifyied X server also works for the Red Hat Graphical Boot, > where you still don't have mounted partitions, network, etc. But presumably breaks system-config-display and all the related tools ? From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 15:05:48 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:05:48 -0300 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <41AC7A2D.7060605@jonobacon.org> References: <41AC7A2D.7060605@jonobacon.org> Message-ID: Elektra provides the infrastructure for a unified configuration backend. It was actually designed for this purpose. But to have a unified configuration ecosystem, software must use it. Regards, Avi On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:48:29 +0000, Jono Bacon wrote: > Avi Alkalay wrote: > ...... > > > > > > Does this provide a unified configuration backend? If not, is there any > work going into a unified configuration backend? It seems so many > potential projects would depend on it. > > Jono > > -- > Jono Bacon - http://www.jonobacon.org/ > Writer / Journalist / Consultant / Developer > > From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 15:18:21 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:18:21 -0300 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:49:13 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 10:25:09AM -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > The xorg.conf file (as most Unix configuration files) was designed for > > human beings. > > It was designed for both humans and software and includes a bundled library > for working with the file itself. Yes, and I used this library, and I can say it is completely dependent on X source. It is a very complex lexical analyzer, that works with many complex C structures. A 7-button mouse vendor won't spend time to learn it to make a sort of driver installation program. In fact, I don't know anybody outside the X.org project that uses it. > > The Elektrifyied X server also works for the Red Hat Graphical Boot, > > where you still don't have mounted partitions, network, etc. > > But presumably breaks system-config-display and all the related tools ? Of course. This is a first step. Does system-config-display uses the X.org library? I think this tool's developer simply learned the xorg.conf format and wrote code to generate it. And system-config-display, as far as I know, is a monolitic tool that don't permit HW vendors, or X plugin writers, to independently extend it. Whit a key/value pair paradigm, these folks can write a 10-line Shell script to correctly integrate itself in X, without having to deal with a lexical parser, complex structs, and C. Regards, Avi From ndbecker2 at verizon.net Tue Nov 30 15:29:02 2004 From: ndbecker2 at verizon.net (Neal D. Becker) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:29:02 -0500 Subject: rawhide report: 20041130 changes References: <200411301256.iAUCuRx25782@porkchop.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Build System wrote: > boost-1.32.0-1 > -------------- > * Mon Nov 29 2004 Benjamin Kosnik 1.32.0-1 > - Update to 1.32.0 > - (#122817: libboost_*.so symlinks missing) > Need to add PYTHON_LIB_PATH=/usr/lib64/python2.3 to build on x86_64 From peter.backlund at home.se Tue Nov 30 15:53:16 2004 From: peter.backlund at home.se (Peter Backlund) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:53:16 +0100 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101829996.31196.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > > The Elektrifyied X server also works for the Red Hat Graphical Boot, > > > where you still don't have mounted partitions, network, etc. > > > > But presumably breaks system-config-display and all the related tools ? > > Of course. This is a first step. > Does system-config-display uses the X.org library? I think this tool's > developer simply learned the xorg.conf format and wrote code to > generate it. Actually s-c-d uses the Python binding to this X.org library (pyxf86config). > And system-config-display, as far as I know, is a monolitic tool that > don't permit HW vendors, or X plugin writers, to independently extend > it. Whit a key/value pair paradigm, these folks can write a 10-line > Shell script to correctly integrate itself in X, without having to > deal with a lexical parser, complex structs, and C. There's a small tool, written in Python against pyxf86config, that the rpm.livna.org ATI and Nvidia graphics driver packages uses for autoconfiguring xorg.conf. It works fairly well, and pyxf86config is easy to use. However, I do agree that s-c-d should be extendable by 3:rd party components. /Peter Backlund From symbiont at berlios.de Tue Nov 30 16:17:28 2004 From: symbiont at berlios.de (Jeff Pitman) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:17:28 +0800 Subject: Bug Related. In-Reply-To: <20041130110333.17893.qmail@web8408.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20041130110333.17893.qmail@web8408.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200412010017.28840.symbiont@berlios.de> On Tuesday 30 November 2004 19:03, Jeffrin Thalakkottoor wrote: > The Keyboard Does Not Work On Somedays > atleast for some time. Like Paul said. But, in the meantime, upgrade to the errata kernel "2.6.9-1.6_FC2". That fixed keyboard lock ups I would get when executing Java apps. (Even java -version would cause a keyboard lockup.) take care, -- -jeff From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 16:23:38 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:23:38 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 12:18:21PM -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > don't permit HW vendors, or X plugin writers, to independently extend > it. Whit a key/value pair paradigm, these folks can write a 10-line > Shell script to correctly integrate itself in X, without having to > deal with a lexical parser, complex structs, and C. In all the systems I've seen so far trying to just burn disk and performance with simple key/value pairs this isn't true because 1. You need to do locking 2. You need to do atomic changes of multiple keys 3. You might run out of disk space 4. You need rollback The current xorg.conf certainly doesn't solve these either but anything trying to be a grad unified config scheme just won't work with one file per key. Gconf proved that pretty conclusively. From avibrazil at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 16:34:47 2004 From: avibrazil at gmail.com (Avi Alkalay) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:34:47 -0300 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:23:38 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > In all the systems I've seen so far trying to just burn disk and performance > with simple key/value pairs this isn't true because > > 1. You need to do locking It does. > 2. You need to do atomic changes of multiple keys Of course. And in current xorg.conf text file you have to rewrite it all. > 3. You might run out of disk space > 4. You need rollback So the app handling the keys must be mature enough to roll it back. > The current xorg.conf certainly doesn't solve these either but anything trying > to be a grad unified config scheme just won't work with one file per key. > Gconf proved that pretty conclusively. Again this detail? How many time I'll have to say that a key/value hierarchy paradigm value is a unified namespace and API? The way it deals with storage is an implementation detail that can be reimplemented without breaking the applications. About storage, 1 file per key or 1 file per folder uses almost the same amount of disk space. Do a 'du -sk' in gconf storage folders to see that. From quarlewm at jmu.edu Tue Nov 30 16:36:23 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:36:23 -0500 Subject: Recent Fedora Core kernels (plus my SPEC file for 2.6.8-1.541 with Athlon support) In-Reply-To: <20041129030004.GD27169@redhat.com> References: <1096222216.3779.73.camel@bitman.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <20040926181809.GD24689@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <20041129030004.GD27169@redhat.com> Message-ID: Dave Jones wrote: > > C. If it doesn't hurt and it would probably help, I don't see what's the > > matter with making an Athlon-optimized kernel. > > A number of reasons. > - It's one more column in the matrix of supported kernels to worry about. > This may seem insignificant, but it takes quite a while to push > a kernel package through the buildsystem given how many variants > it spits out. On a busy day (like for eg, just before release), it > can take the better part of a day to get packages built. > - The gain just isn't worth it over the 2.4 kernels. > Now that the runtime optimisations get performed in 2.6, theres only > one thing thats missing that would be in an Athlon optimised kernel, > and thats the optimised copy_page/clear_page, which are really only > a win when a lot of data is being copied back/forth between the kernel, > and even then, only under certain usage patterns. I'll be surprised > if this shows up on any real-world application. Apparently the man who started this thread found his real-world applications. ---- Peace, William From hp at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 16:58:52 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:58:52 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101833933.18692.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 11:23 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 12:18:21PM -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > don't permit HW vendors, or X plugin writers, to independently extend > > it. Whit a key/value pair paradigm, these folks can write a 10-line > > Shell script to correctly integrate itself in X, without having to > > deal with a lexical parser, complex structs, and C. > > In all the systems I've seen so far trying to just burn disk and performance > with simple key/value pairs this isn't true because > > 1. You need to do locking > 2. You need to do atomic changes of multiple keys > 3. You might run out of disk space > 4. You need rollback > > The current xorg.conf certainly doesn't solve these either but anything trying > to be a grad unified config scheme just won't work with one file per key. > Gconf proved that pretty conclusively. > Yes. http://www.gnome.org/projects/gconf/plans.html The issue isn't really one file per key (though I think that's wrong - even gconf is one file per directory, not per key). It's that you need to address transactions, locking, error handling, and notifications. Havoc From quarlewm at jmu.edu Tue Nov 30 17:05:51 2004 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:05:51 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: <1101799715.2640.19.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101799715.2640.19.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: Arjan van de Ven wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 01:33 -0500, William M. Quarles wrote: > >>Arjan van de Ven wrote: >> >> >>>On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 19:46 -0500, William M. Quarles wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>I would, but are there any free ways of doing benchmarks? Not to >>>>mention I'm not really much of a programmer, so I don't know what >>>>oprofile/gprof are. >>> >>>for what it's worth... cmov isn't faster on newer (pM/pIV/amd64 level) >>>CPUs than the open coded conditional jump anymore.... >>>so there no longer really is a reason to use cmov-only code. >> >>More terminology that I am not aware of... cmov? > > > cmov is a conditional move instruction on x86. Basically a C code > construct like this > > if (some_condition == 5) > A = B; > > normally gets translated into (pseudo asm) > > compare some_condition, 5 > jump_if_not_equal label; > move B into A > label: > ... the rest of the program > > the "jump_if_not_equal" instruction is a conditional instruction, which > means that the cpu cannot look ahead and decide what the next > instruction is, until the actual compare is finished. With the current > deeply pipelined cpus that is sort of a problem (the solution is that > the cpu makes a guess what it'll be based on past decisions for this > line of code, and if wrong, it backtracks). > > Now with cmov, the code looks like > > compare some_condition, 5 > move_if_equal B into A > ... the rest of the program > > and in theory there is no question about which instructions will be > executed when, so the "cost" of having an empty pipeline until the > decision is known wouldn't be there. And that's mostly true for PPro/PII > level CPUS. Thanks, that cleared thins up a lot. As someone who was still using a Pentium II a year ago, and is now only using a Pentium III computer (which would still have this benefit since the only difference between those and the PIII is an additional yet in this case irrelevant instruction set), I'd really like to see that performance difference. Now were you saying that this cmov is part of i486 or i686? I'd like to try rebuilding everything to see if it makes a difference. Would I have to worry about any trademark problems? Is there a script that Red Hat uses to automate the build process? Does it use SRPMS or do the sources and specs have to be "preinstalled?" > However, newer ones (both AMD and Intel) operate in such a way that the > advantage of this no longer is an advantage, they need to know the > result anyway in effect (and also make a guess about the "if" result) Is the advantage still there, or is it just no longer a significant advantage? Or is it a cost? Unless it's a cost, I don't see what's wrong with putting in the advantage, unless it's a lot more work on your part. Is it more work? >> I know that I'm a >>novice about development, you don't have to further proove it to me. > > I absolutely don't mean it in that way. I guess that I should have put a smiley face next to that one. :-) ---- Peace, William From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 17:17:28 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:17:28 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041130171728.GB10115@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 01:34:47PM -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > > 3. You might run out of disk space > > 4. You need rollback > > So the app handling the keys must be mature enough to roll it back. In ten lines of shell script. Rollback belongs in the configuration libraries so you can do commit(list of key changes). That handles out of disk for free also. > About storage, 1 file per key or 1 file per folder uses almost the > same amount of disk space. Do a 'du -sk' in gconf storage folders to > see that. In a db4 hash overhead seems to be percentage points. In flat file its about 3.5K per key for single key per file. It is implementation detail compared to the fundamental goal. Overall I'm glad to see this work being done. I'm not convinced the format is right but the essential goals of unifying configuration spaces, improving tools and also just going out and doing it are all good things. From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 17:23:33 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:23:33 -0500 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101799715.2640.19.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <20041130172333.GC10115@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 12:05:51PM -0500, William M. Quarles wrote: > this case irrelevant instruction set), I'd really like to see that > performance difference. Now were you saying that this cmov is part of > i486 or i686? I'd like to try rebuilding everything to see if it makes > a difference. cmov is an optional instruction for i686 - it turns up on the PPro, PII, PIII, PIV and Pentium M at least. By PIV its as slow or slower than not using it. > Is the advantage still there, or is it just no longer a significant > advantage? Or is it a cost? Unless it's a cost, I don't see what's > wrong with putting in the advantage, unless it's a lot more work on your > part. Is it more work? Its a cost because some processors we support today lack this instruction but are otherwise 686. Alan From arjanv at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 17:27:06 2004 From: arjanv at redhat.com (Arjan van de Ven) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:27:06 +0100 Subject: i486 base architecture In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910411281454a3a118a@mail.gmail.com> <20041128234650.GA13367@ee.oulu.fi> <1101715873.2814.33.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> <1101799715.2640.19.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> Message-ID: <1101835626.2640.65.camel@laptop.fenrus.org> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 12:05 -0500, William M. Quarles wrote: > performance difference. Now were you saying that this cmov is part of > i486 or i686? i686 > Would I have to worry about any trademark problems? ????? > Is there a script that Red Hat uses to automate the build process? Does > it use SRPMS or do the sources and specs have to be "preinstalled?" srpms; what you can do yourself is install most of the rpms (so that all buildrequires are met), then get the src.rpm's in one dir and do for i in *.src.rpm ; do rpmbuild --rebuild --target i686 $i ; done for a first cut approximation... takes 24 to 36 hours though. > > However, newer ones (both AMD and Intel) operate in such a way that the > > advantage of this no longer is an advantage, they need to know the > > result anyway in effect (and also make a guess about the "if" result) > > Is the advantage still there not anymore > , or is it just no longer a significant > advantage? Or is it a cost? Unless it's a cost, I don't see what's on newest P4 cores it seems to be a cost even (given that cmov can't do all the addressing combinations normal mov can, gcc may have to add some slight additional glue code which is a cost) > wrong with putting in the advantage, unless it's a lot more work on your > part. Is it more work? it means that you don't run on cpus without cmov... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From david at fubar.dk Tue Nov 30 17:43:16 2004 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:43:16 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1101836596.1676.31.camel@davidz> Hey, I'm all for improving the situation with around auto configuration of hardware, but with all due respect, I think you guys are trying to solve the symptom, not the real problem. In my view you really want the X server to be able to export an API for software higher up the stack (GNOME, KDE, etc.) to configure the X server. You also want to reconfigure it while it's running. It seems to me, that putting in an mediator, for basically writing out configuration files, is not the best API for doing this. I could be wrong though. Ideally the X server wouldn't even touch hardware before someone used that API to say "Add monitor, Add input device, blah blah". Anyway, with the right API in the X server (which would probably be exported through D-BUS), I should be able to write a daemon, let's call it gnome-input-manager, that runs in the desktop session as user davidz. This would also allow said daemon to disable the touchpad when I connect an external mouse or, for more fun, to disable it around intervals where I'm punching the keys. The reason you want this in the desktop session is that you want to query the locally logged in users preferences from e.g. gconf or whatever. Just what I personally think. Have fun, David From bpm at ec-group.com Tue Nov 30 17:37:36 2004 From: bpm at ec-group.com (Brian Millett) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:37:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: /proc/bus/usb ?? Message-ID: <45136.12.41.112.51.1101836256.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> I'm guessing that I should know this, sorry, but with the last initscripts update, I now get a message like "can't find /proc/bus/usb in /etc/fstab or /etc/mtab" I have googled to see what should be in /etc/fstab and have found four variations. usbdev /proc/bus/usb usbdevfs defaults 0 0 usbdevfs /proc/bus/usb usbdevfs noauto 0 0 none /proc/bus/usb usbdevfs defaults 0 0 /proc/bus/usb /proc/bus/usb usbdevfs defaults 0 0 What should I have? I do have a /proc/bus/usb that is populated. Thanks. -- Brian Millett Enterprise Consulting Group "Shifts in paradigms (314) 205-9030 often cause nose bleeds." bpmATec-groupDOTcom Greg Glenn From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 30 18:05:06 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:05:06 +0100 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1101837905.2684.4.camel@kyrre> tir, 30.11.2004 kl. 14.25 skrev Avi Alkalay: > For people that still don't know the Elektra Project > (http://elektra.sourceforge.net), it provides an alternative back-end > for text configuration files. So instead, for example, the > human-readable-only xorg.conf file, we'll have a hierarchy of > key/value pairs easily and precisely accessible by X.org and also any > other programs through an API or command, and human beings too. > Same concept as GConf, but designed for system-wide use. > > We've been working on X.org source code to do exactly what we just > described above. And it is ready for use, tested even with very > complex X.org configurations. A patched X server will convert your > xorg.conf file automatically, even the most complex ones, including > non-documented parameters. > > It is available at > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=117521 > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=117521&package_id=136552 > > You'll find there the patch against X.org source, the patch against > Fedora Core 3 RPM spec file (to see how to build it), and the README > file, which is pasted in this e-mail bellow. > > We'll write patches for other software, and everybody is invited to > join this integration effort. > > Thank you, > Avi Alkalay > Elektra Project > > ----------------------README------------------------- > ELEKTRIFIED X.ORG: PRECISE AND PROGRAMATICALY EASY X CONFIGURATION > > Your X server has to work with your installed video card, monitor, find > your font server and dirs, modules, extensions, drivers, plugins. > You have to tell him how to integrate it all through its xorg.conf file. > If you need to change something, you start a text editor and use your > human brain and eyes to find the correct line, understand it, have the > skills to change it, and change it in order to work. > > This is good for advanced technical guys, but very bad for people that > don't have this skills, and in fact, don't really want to. He just > wants to change the screen resolution to make that projector work with his > laptop, and go ahead with his sales presentation. This is just an example. > > The point is: it is very difficult to make simple programs or scripts > that make simple changes to X configuration. Another example is a monitor > vendor that wants to support X, and for this he'd like to provide easy > installation of his product, without having to ask his user to read > documentation about horizontal Sync, and vertical refresh rates. For him > again is difficult to write some simple software that preciselly changes X > configuration to work correctly with his product. > > The xorg.conf file (as most Unix configuration files) was designed for > human beings. > > The Elektra Project (http://elektra.sourceforge.net) introduces a new way > to handle configurations through a clean API (or command line > tool) that accesses atomic configuration data, into a standarized > hierarchycal tree of key-value pairs. It is similar to GConf, but > designed for system-wide use, which also implies it does not have > dependencies. > > And this is what this patch is about: to make the X server look for its > configurations into a machine-ready tree of key-value pairs, instead of > the human-ready xorg.conf. > > So where you had to look for "Device radeon" into a "Section Device", > with the key/value tree, X and other programs can look for it > preciselly at > > system/sw/xorg/current/Devices/Videocard0/Driver = radeon > > > Where you once had to "vi" your "Section Monitor", now X and other > programs can do it accessing the keys: > > system/sw/xorg/current/Monitors/Monitor0/HorizSync = 31.5 - 48.5 > system/sw/xorg/current/Monitors/Monitor0/VertRefresh = 40.0 - 70.0 > system/sw/xorg/current/Monitors/Monitor0/ModelName = IBM T40 LCD Panel > system/sw/xorg/current/Monitors/Monitor0/VendorName = IBM > system/sw/xorg/current/Monitors/Monitor0/Options/dpms > > > Where once the salesman above had to "vi" the Screen Section to change > the resolution, color depth, etc, a program can help him accessing: > > system/sw/xorg/current/Screens/Screen0/Displays/00/Depth=24 > system/sw/xorg/current/Screens/Screen0/Displays/00/Modes=1024x768 > > > And so on.... > > We believe an elektrified X server can leverage more plug-and-play > configurations, providing configuration power to HW vendors in a > very simple way, and making users experience less painfull. > > > > > > > BEHAVIOR OF AN ELEKTRIFIED X SERVER > > A patched X server will look for its configuration keys under the > namespace: > > system/sw/xorg/current first, then if not found it tries > system/sw/xorg > > If not found, it will default to some xorg.conf file, parse it, and store > in its internal structures, then convert and commit it to a set of > keys under system/sw/xorg/current, and reload these keys. > > So you get automatic one-time conversion from xorg.conf to the > hierarchycal configuration key/value pairs > > Very complex examples of xorg.conf files were tested for conversion. Even > undocumented configuration parameters (because the original source was > used as the reference). > > The Elektrifyied X server also works for the Red Hat Graphical Boot, > where you still don't have mounted partitions, network, etc. > > > > > > ELEKTRIFING X.ORG > > You'll need the elektra-devel package installed in order to build X with > Elektra support. > > 1. Download and unpack X.org source code from > 2. Download the xorg-x11-6.8.1-elektra.patch file from > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=117521&package_id=136552 > 3. Apply it: > ~/src/xc$ cd .. > ~/src$ patch -p0 < xorg-x11-6.8.1-elektra.patch > ~/src$ cd xc > ~/src/xc$ # ...configure your build in host.def > 4. Enable the patch: > ~/src/xc$ echo "#define UseElektra" >> config/cf/host.def > 5. Build X.Org > > You'll find the new X server as file xc/programs/Xserver/Xorg . > > The patch will add the following files: > > xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/parser/ > elektra.h (exported methods) > elektra.c (key fetching and X structs integration business logic) > xorg-example.conf (a very complex conf file to test conversion) > xelektrify.c (cmd to convert xorg.conf->keys and vice-versa) > README.Elektra (this file) > > And it will instrument > xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/common/xf86Config.c::xf86HandleConfigFile() > to trigger the one-time conversion, and key fetching logic. > > And instrument the Imakefiles for correct builds: > > xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/parser/Imakefile > xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/common/Imakefile > xc/programs/Xserver/Imakefile > > If "#define UseElektra" is not present in host.def, the patch is > completelly disabled, and you'll get a binary-identicall built as before > applying the patch. All patched code are surrounded by #ifdefs. > > > > > > ELEKTRA MEETS X.ORG SOURCE CODE > or how we wrote the patch.... > > X.org has an xorg.conf parser that takes this steps to handle > configuration: > > 1. Lexically parse the xorg.conf file > 2. Put each Section info in an equivalent struct > 3. Encapsulate all structs together and pass them to a validator > 4. Use structs to define X behavior > > This process is triggered by the xf86HandleConfigFile() method from > > xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/common/xf86Config.c > > Each xorg.conf Section has an equivalent structure defined in > > xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/parser/xf86Parser.h > > and the lexycall analyzer code to parse each Section is under > > xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/parser/ > > A fully parsed file has its equivalent structures encapsulated in a > parent XF86Config struct. We have: > > struct XF86ConfModuleRec for the "Section Modules" > struct XF86ConfMonitorRec for the "Section Monitor" > struct XF86ConfDeviceRec for the "Section Device" > etc... > > These structs are a pure computer representation of the text in each > Section, so the methods under "parser/" convert text to structs, and > the structs to text. This is how original X.org source handles xorg.conf. > > The Elektrification add methods that act in steps 1 and 2 above. And also > include methods to convert each struct to a KeySet. Both old (xorg.conf) > and new (Elektra) ways to get configuration information can live together > and they are actually used to automatically convert xorg.conf to keys. So > at the first time you'll run your elektrified X server, it will: > > 1. Not find configuration keys (because it is the first time) > 2. Parse xorg.conf into structs > 3. Convert structs to Keys > 4. Commit the keys to key database > 5. Reload configurations from the key database > > See the behavior in the previous section. > > After assembling the XF86Config C structure, X will decode all its info > into more practicall parameters for its further operation. > > As a side note, with a key/value pair configuration hierarchy paradigm, > the XF86Config assembling code (the parser) could be avoided, making X > look for its configurations in a programatically easier, yet > human-readable, configuration organization. > We worked at the parser level to keep compatibility and to not go too > deep in X.org source code. > > > http://elektra.sourceforge.net > The Elektra Project > Avi Alkalay > November 2004 While i am all for the *idea*, what happens if your X11 server breaks down and you *have* to use VIM to "save" it? While i am not opposed to creating an easily learned api for config-file configuration, i am *strongly* opposed to not be able to hack into that xorg.conf file from a crude command line (hell, i have vim'ed config files with /bin/bash as my init process and a half borked kernel that would boot 1/5 times...). I don't want my config's to be put all in the hands of some program, to *have* to use a config program (with all the odds and ends it migth have...) in order to fix a broken config. Now imagine that program needed another program, which needed a service wich needed ... the thing you where just trying to fix. Kyrre From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 30 18:09:30 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:09:30 +0100 Subject: Bug Related. In-Reply-To: <200412010017.28840.symbiont@berlios.de> References: <20041130110333.17893.qmail@web8408.mail.in.yahoo.com> <200412010017.28840.symbiont@berlios.de> Message-ID: <1101838169.2684.7.camel@kyrre> tir, 30.11.2004 kl. 17.17 skrev Jeff Pitman: > On Tuesday 30 November 2004 19:03, Jeffrin Thalakkottoor wrote: > > The Keyboard Does Not Work On Somedays > > atleast for some time. > > Like Paul said. But, in the meantime, upgrade to the errata kernel > "2.6.9-1.6_FC2". That fixed keyboard lock ups I would get when > executing Java apps. (Even java -version would cause a keyboard > lockup.) > > take care, > -- > -jeff How would Java have access to do that? I have used Java (though, mostly appletts) quite long, and never experienced something like this... Wich version causes it? From darrint at progeny.com Tue Nov 30 18:14:59 2004 From: darrint at progeny.com (Darrin Thompson) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:14:59 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <1101836596.1676.31.camel@davidz> References: <1101836596.1676.31.camel@davidz> Message-ID: <1101838499.6103.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 12:43 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > I'm all for improving the situation with around auto configuration of > hardware, but with all due respect, I think you guys are trying to solve > the symptom, not the real problem. In my view you really want the X > server to be able to export an API for software higher up the stack > (GNOME, KDE, etc.) to configure the X server. You also want to > reconfigure it while it's running. It seems to me, that putting in an > mediator, for basically writing out configuration files, is not the best > API for doing this. I could be wrong though. Ideally the X server > wouldn't even touch hardware before someone used that API to say "Add > monitor, Add input device, blah blah". > Elektra does not prevent any of what you describe. The current implementation does appear to assume (I've not tried it) that the current X config should map to neatly to key/value pairs in a similarly shaped namespace. The namespace of those pairs seems to be a sticking point. Seems that once you separate input config from monitor config at the file level, keeping them together as "X" config doesn't make so much sense anymore. Elektra also doesn't solve world hunger, but it definitely makes some exsiting issues stink more. -- Darrin From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 30 18:11:42 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:11:42 +0100 Subject: Some bugs, where to file them? In-Reply-To: <1101766481.5631.6.camel@wx1.larc.nasa.gov> References: <1101761367.29565.15.camel@kyrre> <604aa79104112913144ec8528b@mail.gmail.com> <1101766481.5631.6.camel@wx1.larc.nasa.gov> Message-ID: <1101838302.2684.9.camel@kyrre> man, 29.11.2004 kl. 23.14 skrev Phil Schaffner: > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 16:14 -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:49:27 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > > wrote: > > > I have had some difficulties with installing a box with a "RIVA128" gfx > > > card. > > > > ... snip ... > > > > It's difficult to know if your system really is hanging.. or if there > > is a small problem with the display drivers that is affecting X > > startup for rhgb and firstboot.. without some more information. Doing > > a fresh install and booting without the boot options quiet and rhgb > > would be interesting... to see if firstboot behaves without running > > rhgb. Similarly doing an install and preventing firstboot from running > > to see if X starts up correctly would be useful. > > Might try booting to runlevel 3 (type "a" at grub boot screen, backspace > to delete "rhgb quiet" then "3"), log in as root, and do > > # system-config-display --reconfig > > Check detected hardware carefully to make sure it matches yours. > > Phil > shall do. Just have to roll fc3 on a buch of put'ers first, and this our testing box. Everything else looks really nice, though :) From darrint at progeny.com Tue Nov 30 18:22:53 2004 From: darrint at progeny.com (Darrin Thompson) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:22:53 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <1101837905.2684.4.camel@kyrre> References: <1101837905.2684.4.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1101838973.6103.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 19:05 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > While i am all for the *idea*, what happens if your X11 server breaks > down and you *have* to use VIM to "save" it? While i am not opposed to > creating an easily learned api for config-file configuration, i am > *strongly* opposed to not be able to hack into that xorg.conf file from > a crude command line (hell, i have vim'ed config files with /bin/bash as > my init process and a half borked kernel that would boot 1/5 times...). > > I don't want my config's to be put all in the hands of some program, to > *have* to use a config program (with all the odds and ends it migth > have...) in order to fix a broken config. Now imagine that program > needed another program, which needed a service wich needed ... the thing > you where just trying to fix. > You don't *have* to use a config program, the keys are all vim hackable. It might be a royal pain, however, to add a bunch of keys with an editor. Tweaks would be easy enough though. http://elektra.sourceforge.net/#rgfacts (third bullet, also seventh) -- Darrin From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 30 18:32:22 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:32:22 +0100 Subject: Eina - gtk2 replacement for xmms In-Reply-To: <1101767825.9641.37.camel@tux.lan> References: <1101676327l.25496l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101681765.28290.76.camel@tux.lan> <1101684566.3297.1.camel@cutter> <41AA628A.3080905@silverorange.com> <1101686177.25046.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101687292l.25496l.4l@devel.mpeters.us> <41AA73D7.6030704@silverorange.com> <1101703472l.25496l.5l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101724342.28290.83.camel@tux.lan> <1101752376l.4582l.0l@devel.mpeters.us> <1101764849.9641.31.camel@tux.lan> <1101765128.29565.25.camel@kyrre> <1101767825.9641.37.camel@tux.lan> Message-ID: <1101839541.2684.11.camel@kyrre> man, 29.11.2004 kl. 23.37 skrev Ronald S. Bultje: > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 22:52, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > Neither can a properitary, vendor-delivered codec. > > People ship Shockwave legally. > > Ronald Shockwave for Linux? Since when? From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 30 18:49:17 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:49:17 +0100 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <1101838973.6103.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101837905.2684.4.camel@kyrre> <1101838973.6103.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101840556.2684.16.camel@kyrre> tir, 30.11.2004 kl. 19.22 skrev Darrin Thompson: > On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 19:05 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > While i am all for the *idea*, what happens if your X11 server breaks > > down and you *have* to use VIM to "save" it? While i am not opposed to > > creating an easily learned api for config-file configuration, i am > > *strongly* opposed to not be able to hack into that xorg.conf file from > > a crude command line (hell, i have vim'ed config files with /bin/bash as > > my init process and a half borked kernel that would boot 1/5 times...). > > > > I don't want my config's to be put all in the hands of some program, to > > *have* to use a config program (with all the odds and ends it migth > > have...) in order to fix a broken config. Now imagine that program > > needed another program, which needed a service wich needed ... the thing > > you where just trying to fix. > > > > You don't *have* to use a config program, the keys are all vim hackable. > It might be a royal pain, however, to add a bunch of keys with an > editor. Tweaks would be easy enough though. > > http://elektra.sourceforge.net/#rgfacts (third bullet, also seventh) > > -- > Darrin > Sometimes you will have to do that. What about a plugin-based system, which used "regular" configs as back end, and exported them as an (consistent over different configs) API? From alan at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 18:56:54 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:56:54 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <1101836596.1676.31.camel@davidz> References: <1101836596.1676.31.camel@davidz> Message-ID: <20041130185654.GA15322@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 12:43:16PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > exported through D-BUS), I should be able to write a daemon, let's call > it gnome-input-manager, that runs in the desktop session as user davidz. > This would also allow said daemon to disable the touchpad when I connect > an external mouse or, for more fun, to disable it around intervals where > I'm punching the keys. The reason you want this in the desktop session You pretty much have to. I've got a hotplug video card here for example. That really ruins the current configuration system. OTOH you have to start somewhere and if the goal is to unify configuration then you want to let someone else rewrite X. However as you and Havoc both point out it has to handle notifiers From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Tue Nov 30 18:57:01 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:57:01 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <20041130171728.GB10115@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130171728.GB10115@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101841021.11035.27.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 12:17 -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 01:34:47PM -0300, Avi Alkalay wrote: > > > > > 3. You might run out of disk space > > > 4. You need rollback > > > > So the app handling the keys must be mature enough to roll it back. > > In ten lines of shell script. Rollback belongs in the configuration libraries > so you can do commit(list of key changes). That handles out of disk for > free also. Indeed. Any configuration system like Elektra basically needs some real database functionality. This isn't a problem - it's 100% possible. Elektra just needs to export the API, and leave the implementation details of it to the backend. A Berkeley DB backend for example could easily implement transactions and such. (Or do you need one of the commercial BDB variants for those?) Looking at the API, it appears that Elektra is already pretty much "there". Just grab a KeySet, set the keys, and save the whole set. You just need to guarantee that saving a set is atomic. i.e., make sure everyone backend does this, and clearly document this. So far as implementation, this really is easy even with a (single) file- based backend. Robustness might take some work, but the basics are easy. You simply keep a list of all they keys that have been set, and when the Commit command comes along, lock the file(s) in question and modify them. On Rollback, just "forget" all the key changes that haven't been committed yet. Basically the hard part for the simple file backend is getting the commit to stay atomic on errors when you use multiple files. If you have multiple files being changed, I don't believe it's actually possible to be 100% atomic - you can reduce the chances of something breaking, but there will always be various race conditions in regards to when errors occur that could leave you in a half-committed state. Getting intricate behaviour with shell scripts is also quite possible. You would probably need some kind of service daemon. So you'd write something like: #!/bin/sh # this would print out code to set an environment variable, so the code # gets executed by eval, setting the variable eval(kdb begin) # set some keys - the command would check for the environment variable # defined by the shell service daemon, and communicate with the daemon kdb set "key1" "value" kdb set "key2" "value" # do some other stuff, including checking values of keys, which would # also communicate with the daemon if the env-var is set if [ `kdb get 'key2'` = 'value' ] ; then do-some-stuff set-some-other-keys fi # commit/rollback/whatever - again, checks env var, daemon, etc kdb commit #eof The daemon would take some work to get working robustly (i.e., noticing when its parent exists without shutting it down, and thus shutting itself down cleanly after doing a rollback op, etc.) but its certainly possible. > > > About storage, 1 file per key or 1 file per folder uses almost the > > same amount of disk space. Do a 'du -sk' in gconf storage folders to > > see that. > > In a db4 hash overhead seems to be percentage points. In flat file its > about 3.5K per key for single key per file. It is implementation detail > compared to the fundamental goal. The author has this unfortunate tendency to use ReiserFS and other non- mainstream file-systems and claim everyone else should too (Linux Registry, the previous name for Elektra, was shot down repeatedly due to his disregard for real-life systems) so he probably doesn't see any of the over-head for small files. A db4-baed system certainly has technical advantages in terms of efficiency, but stop and think - you're basically now running the WIndows Registry. The Registry's *largest* problem is that it's a binary format that easily gets corrupted - a lot like Berkeley DB (hell, I wonder if that's what the Windows Registry's code is based off of ~_^ ) The best format is probably something like XML, or something very XML- ish, because it can easily store a hierarchy in a single file, is "safe" in terms of value escaping (many custom formats are not), and there are tons of libraries to read/write it efficiently. It isn't *easily* edited by hand, but if it's "pretty-printed" it can be easy enough. > > Overall I'm glad to see this work being done. I'm not convinced the format is > right but the essential goals of unifying configuration spaces, improving > tools and also just going out and doing it are all good things. Definitely. Elektra still has major short comings (no transactional guarantees, no notification, no real access control, no temporary keys... mostly things Elektra can never do since it refuses to use a daemon), but it's at least a tiny step in teh right direction that might open some peoples' eyes. > -- Sean Middleditch AwesomePlay Productions, Inc. From david at fubar.dk Tue Nov 30 19:17:53 2004 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:17:53 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <1101838499.6103.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101836596.1676.31.camel@davidz> <1101838499.6103.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101842273.1676.60.camel@davidz> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 13:14 -0500, Darrin Thompson wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 12:43 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > > I'm all for improving the situation with around auto configuration of > > hardware, but with all due respect, I think you guys are trying to solve > > the symptom, not the real problem. In my view you really want the X > > server to be able to export an API for software higher up the stack > > (GNOME, KDE, etc.) to configure the X server. You also want to > > reconfigure it while it's running. It seems to me, that putting in an > > mediator, for basically writing out configuration files, is not the best > > API for doing this. I could be wrong though. Ideally the X server > > wouldn't even touch hardware before someone used that API to say "Add > > monitor, Add input device, blah blah". > > > > Elektra does not prevent any of what you describe. > Not sure, I see that the Elektra API is key/value based and the only two types supported appears to be UTF-8 strings and Blobs. Perhaps it would be useful with other fundamental data types on grounds of type safety. > The current implementation does appear to assume (I've not tried it) > that the current X config should map to neatly to key/value pairs in a > similarly shaped namespace. The namespace of those pairs seems to be a > sticking point. Seems that once you separate input config from monitor > config at the file level, keeping them together as "X" config doesn't > make so much sense anymore. > The API I'd like to see the X server export would definitely include methods/facilities that you cannot express in terms of 'set one more more keys atomically'. For instance, shouldn't the X server expose a method Degauss() if the hardware is capable of degaussing a monitor? (locking down who and what is permitted to invoke Degauss() is another matter entirely - I suggest that people take a lot at D-BUS and some of the policy you can apply there; e.g. only allow console user to do it. In fact, it might be too dangerous to expose such a method as repeated use might damage the hardware, but you get the point) Cheers, David From ndbecker2 at verizon.net Tue Nov 30 19:24:45 2004 From: ndbecker2 at verizon.net (Neal D. Becker) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:24:45 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130171728.GB10115@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101841021.11035.27.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> Message-ID: Sean Middleditch wrote: [...] > So far as implementation, this really is easy even with a (single) file- > based backend. Robustness might take some work, but the basics are > easy. You simply keep a list of all they keys that have been set, and > when the Commit command comes along, lock the file(s) in question and > modify them. On Rollback, just "forget" all the key changes that > haven't been committed yet. Basically the hard part for the simple file > backend is getting the commit to stay atomic on errors when you use > multiple files. If you have multiple files being changed, I don't > believe it's actually possible to be 100% atomic - you can reduce the > chances of something breaking, but there will always be various race > conditions in regards to when errors occur that could leave you in a > half-committed state. > rename is atomic. You can always use this fact if you need to. From vherva at viasys.com Tue Nov 30 19:33:14 2004 From: vherva at viasys.com (Ville Herva) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:33:14 +0200 Subject: openoffice.org-i18n size In-Reply-To: <20041128164640.GA23483@orient.maison.moi> References: <20041128142459.GO11949@viasys.com> <20041128164640.GA23483@orient.maison.moi> Message-ID: <20041130193314.GK13468@viasys.com> On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 05:46:40PM +0100, you [Emmanuel Seyman] wrote: > On Sun, Nov 28, 2004 at 04:24:59PM +0200, Ville Herva wrote: > > > > Would it make sense to split openoffice.org-i18n up somewhat? For example, > > Planned for FC4. Very glad to hear that. I take it that the OpenOffice 2.0 is not a realistic dream in FC4 time frame? -- v -- v at iki.fi From notting at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 19:35:38 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:35:38 -0500 Subject: /proc/bus/usb ?? In-Reply-To: <45136.12.41.112.51.1101836256.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> References: <45136.12.41.112.51.1101836256.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> Message-ID: <20041130193538.GB21461@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Brian Millett (bpm at ec-group.com) said: > I'm guessing that I should know this, sorry, but with the last initscripts > update, I now get a message like > "can't find /proc/bus/usb in /etc/fstab or /etc/mtab" The various mount -f statements need redirected to /dev/null. Bill From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Tue Nov 30 19:40:03 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:40:03 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130171728.GB10115@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101841021.11035.27.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> Message-ID: <1101843604.11035.30.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 14:24 -0500, Neal D. Becker wrote: > Sean Middleditch wrote: > > [...] > > So far as implementation, this really is easy even with a (single) file- > > based backend. Robustness might take some work, but the basics are > > easy. You simply keep a list of all they keys that have been set, and > > when the Commit command comes along, lock the file(s) in question and > > modify them. On Rollback, just "forget" all the key changes that > > haven't been committed yet. Basically the hard part for the simple file > > backend is getting the commit to stay atomic on errors when you use > > multiple files. If you have multiple files being changed, I don't > > believe it's actually possible to be 100% atomic - you can reduce the > > chances of something breaking, but there will always be various race > > conditions in regards to when errors occur that could leave you in a > > half-committed state. > > > > rename is atomic. You can always use this fact if you need to. Yes. That doesn't help with the problem of making atomic commits to *multiple* files. You would have to perform multiple renames, of which some may succeed and others may fail for any of a number of reasons, and then you can't necessarily undo the ones you already did. Unless there is a way to do an atomic rename of multiple files, my point definitely still stands - multiple files cannot be modified atomically. > -- Sean Middleditch AwesomePlay Productions, Inc. From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Tue Nov 30 19:50:13 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:50:13 -0700 Subject: print configuration Message-ID: <1101844214.2798.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> I am not entirely sure if this is how to do it. But, here goes: In the past you could configure printers using the RedHat supplied tools (as found in menus) in Samba. I am no longer seeing this. I have checked the option in print conf to share the printers and autodiscover them. I think this is a cups thing. However, this doesn't even seem to be working with my systems. (I do have all the systems checked to discover the shared printers.) Even if this was working, this doesn't share them with the Windows world. In FC4 is it possible to add an option in printconf or what not that will share them via Samba as well as cups method? Trever -- "What makes his world so hard to see clearly is not its strangeness but its usualness. Familiarity can blind you." -- Robert M. Pirsig From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 30 19:49:35 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:49:35 +0100 Subject: print configuration In-Reply-To: <1101844214.2798.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101844214.2798.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101844175.2684.19.camel@kyrre> tir, 30.11.2004 kl. 20.50 skrev Trever L. Adams: > I am not entirely sure if this is how to do it. But, here goes: > > In the past you could configure printers using the RedHat supplied tools > (as found in menus) in Samba. I am no longer seeing this. I have checked > the option in print conf to share the printers and autodiscover them. I > think this is a cups thing. However, this doesn't even seem to be > working with my systems. (I do have all the systems checked to discover > the shared printers.) > > Even if this was working, this doesn't share them with the Windows > world. > > In FC4 is it possible to add an option in printconf or what not that > will share them via Samba as well as cups method? > To share it using cups, make sure your other computers actually could lookup your dns name to your IP. Also drill a hole for port 631:udp in the client's firewall. To have it shared via samba, i think installing and starting it is enough. From ndbecker2 at verizon.net Tue Nov 30 19:55:49 2004 From: ndbecker2 at verizon.net (Neal D. Becker) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:55:49 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130171728.GB10115@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101841021.11035.27.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1101843604.11035.30.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> Message-ID: Sean Middleditch wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 14:24 -0500, Neal D. Becker wrote: >> Sean Middleditch wrote: >> >> [...] >> > So far as implementation, this really is easy even with a (single) >> > file- >> > based backend. Robustness might take some work, but the basics are >> > easy. You simply keep a list of all they keys that have been set, and >> > when the Commit command comes along, lock the file(s) in question and >> > modify them. On Rollback, just "forget" all the key changes that >> > haven't been committed yet. Basically the hard part for the simple >> > file backend is getting the commit to stay atomic on errors when you >> > use >> > multiple files. If you have multiple files being changed, I don't >> > believe it's actually possible to be 100% atomic - you can reduce the >> > chances of something breaking, but there will always be various race >> > conditions in regards to when errors occur that could leave you in a >> > half-committed state. >> > >> >> rename is atomic. You can always use this fact if you need to. > > Yes. That doesn't help with the problem of making atomic commits to > *multiple* files. You would have to perform multiple renames, of which > some may succeed and others may fail for any of a number of reasons, and > then you can't necessarily undo the ones you already did. Unless there > is a way to do an atomic rename of multiple files, my point definitely > still stands - multiple files cannot be modified atomically. > >> Are you sure? What if you: 1) duplicate the directory (using hardlinks to files) 2) atomic rename directory From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Tue Nov 30 20:08:29 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:08:29 -0700 Subject: print configuration In-Reply-To: <1101844175.2684.19.camel@kyrre> References: <1101844214.2798.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101844175.2684.19.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1101845309.2798.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 20:49 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > To share it using cups, make sure your other computers actually could > lookup your dns name to your IP. > That is done. Do I actually need to set one in the cupsd.conf or does it automatically grab one? > Also drill a hole for port 631:udp in the client's firewall. > Right now, silly, I know, there is no firewall within my network. There is one on the route to the outside world. This will probably be changing, but it isn't right now. > To have it shared via samba, i think installing and starting it is > enough. Hmm, you are correct. I wasn't seeing printers where I looked. Ooops, wrong location. So the question is, how can I tell if cupsd is allowing the browsing. I am watching with Ethereal and I see nothing. In my apps I see nothing. Also, I noticed that in the printer definitions in cupsd.conf (defs is wrong, more like acl) I see that the order is deny,allow and the first line is deny all even though a few lines later it says allow everyone. Is this accurate? Trever -- "C++ is to C as Lung Cancer is to Lung." -- A.C. on Slashdot From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Tue Nov 30 20:13:35 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:13:35 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130171728.GB10115@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101841021.11035.27.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1101843604.11035.30.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> Message-ID: <1101845615.11035.44.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 14:55 -0500, Neal D. Becker wrote: > Sean Middleditch wrote: > Are you sure? What if you: > 1) duplicate the directory (using hardlinks to files) > 2) atomic rename directory I don't believe that actually works. You can't rename one directory onto another already existing directory. You'd have to move the original out of the way, creating a window for disaster to strike. Now, you could lock the entire hierarchy, start the move, and if it fails in the middle (power outage, whatever) have the next process that attempts to access the DB to "fix it." Something like: lock db copy(hardlinks) db to db-work modify db-work rename db-work db-ready # begin danger rename db db-old rename db-ready db delete db-old unlock db Now, if at any point between the begin/end danger lines, if the system power shuts off or the process doing the modification crashes, a later process can "fix" the system. Basically, if it sees a db-ready directory, finish up replacing db with it. Assuming that all works as intended and doesn't have some other race I'm not seeing, then yes, I was wrong - you *can* atomically modify multiple files. Sort of. Assuming that everything that accesses them does so using the entire process above. Modifying even a single file would require locking the whole DB. Reading a file would likewise require it. That could potentially result in a lot of over-head. The locking could be a huge problem for some systems running over NFS. All in all, I'm fairly sure it's not nearly robust enough - not compared to just a single rename of a single file. If you're gonna go through all that trouble, deny users the ability to just edit any of the files directly, and so on, why not just use an existing, tested, stable database for the backend? BDB, SQLite, whatever - they do the same thing the multiple text files do, plus they're a lot more efficient about it. -- Sean Middleditch AwesomePlay Productions, Inc. From cmadams at hiwaay.net Tue Nov 30 20:16:14 2004 From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:16:14 -0600 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130171728.GB10115@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101841021.11035.27.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1101843604.11035.30.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> Message-ID: <20041130201614.GF956419@hiwaay.net> Once upon a time, Neal D. Becker said: > Are you sure? What if you: > 1) duplicate the directory (using hardlinks to files) > 2) atomic rename directory You can't do step #2. You can only rename over an existing directory if the directory is already empty. The only way you can do something like what you say is if you create the directories under a different name and use symlinks to point to them (you can replace a symlink atomically by creating a new symlink under a new name and then renaming the symlink over the old one). If you go that way, you have to have a clean-up program. Otherwise, unclean shutdowns (either of the management program(s) or of the system) will leave stuff all over the place. You could use a log to make the clean-up faster, and rotate the log out when it is processed (i.e. along the lines of db_checkpoint and db_archive from BDB). -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. From dmalcolm at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 20:20:46 2004 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:20:46 -0500 Subject: adventures in booting In-Reply-To: <1101692986.2025.22.camel@davidz> References: <1101692986.2025.22.camel@davidz> Message-ID: <1101846047.4131.44.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 20:49 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: Awesome! So... is no-one else going to reply to this email? Various comments inline below... > Hey, > > So, I've looked a bit more into the booting process and how to optimize > it. Mostly based on the discussion triggered by Owen's boot poster > challenge, here > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg00447.html > > and also some experiments that I did - basically replacing rhgb with gdm > as described here > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-November/msg00066.html > > What I've done is a bit crude - I've replaced init(1) with a shell > script based on /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit and tried to optimize specifically > for my system: IBM Thinkpad T41 laptop with a Pentium M processor at > 1600MHz along with 512MB of RAM. If I understand, you're also optimising for a specific user of that system. Is it worth splitting the readahead into a system-wide list of files (enough to get to the login screen), followed by a per-user list for logging in as a user? To what extent will the files needed to get to a usable desktop vary between Alice and Bob? > > The results are pretty good I think, here is the general time line made > with a wallclock > > 00: exit grub; start booting the kernel > 04: kernel prints audit() > 11: initrd is mounted; Red Hat nash visible > mount / ro (normal initrd procedure) > 13: start bootchart logging; start readahead of approx 193MB files > sleep until readahead is complete > 24: readahead done; now > create /dev and modprobe (in background) > mount / rw, enable swap > start xfs > startx as user davidz in background > start messagebus > start hald > start acpid > start NetworkManager > 32: X claims the display > 34: GNOME desktop banner > 40: GNOME desktop is usable (Nautilus desktop, panel fully populated) > > Here is a bootchart made with the bootchart software from Ziga Mahkovec: > > http://people.redhat.com/davidz/bootchart.png > You may notice that I also start firefox after login and it starts very > very fast - that's because readahead loads all files used by Firefox - > in earlier experiments I've also added files from OpenOffice.org to > readahead and that meant I could start up OpenOffice.org Writer in about > three seconds. More below. > > I've made the following observations > > 1. The kernel patch, linux-2.6.3-printopen.patch, wasn't really working > well for me - it reported far to few files - instead I added a > printk() to fs/namei.c:link_path_walk() > (disclaimer: I don't know much about the kernel so there may be a > better solution than this). > > 2. The data captured from link_path_walk() was massaged into a list > of unique files to preload and sorted on sectors. > > 3. While capturing the data link_path_walk() and before processing > I went through all the menus in the GNOME desktop (to make sure > their icon and desktop files would be added to the list) as well as > loading Firefox. The list contains 5189 unique files - 231 of these > from my home directory - 103 of these from gconf in my home > directory and 302 from gconf in /etc. 2267 were .png files and > 814 of them were .desktop files. 488 files had ".so" in their name. > There was a total of 193MB of files (which says something about > the footprint of the GNOME desktop on Fedora :-/) > > 4. Doing the readahead really helped the time from startx till a > usable desktop - less than 10 seconds! > > 5. Doing readahead on the 5189 files took about 45 seconds on my > system, mostly because the files were scattered around the disk. > Since I had a spare partition 17GB partition, I did this: > a. format spare partition as ext3 > b. copy all readahead files to spare partition (193MB) > c. copy rest of files from main partition to spare partition > (about 9GB) > Now the readahead is down to 11 seconds which averages out to > be 18MB/s. On the other hand, I can still see (using fileblock) > that the files in the readahead is still scattered out and hdparm > says I should be able to get 33.87 MB/sec with no seeks. > > 6. I made a hack to cache /dev (a dev.tar file) and the list of modules > to load. This could be used in production if the kernel could give > us basically a hash value for the kobject hierarchy representing > the hardware (perhaps even a 'tree /sys |md5sum' would suffice). > This shaved some seconds of as well. > > 7. A number of things was started in parallel - I found that doing > readahead while running modprobe wasn't helping anything; in fact > it contributed negatively to performance (a bit to my surprise, I > guess because the kernel was busy). > > 8. readahead on the right files is A Good Thing(tm). Booting my system > without readahead on the partition with the readahead files scattered > took 58 seconds (compared to 39 with readahead on the optimized > partition) > > http://people.redhat.com/davidz/bootchart-without-readahead-scattered.png > > and without readahead on on the optimized partition it took 43 > seconds > > http://people.redhat.com/davidz/bootchart-without-readahead-nonscattered.png > > again compared to 39 seconds. As an added bonus, the readahead > makes sure that e.g Firefox loads fast; all .png and .desktop files > are in place for when using the menus. As mentioned, one could put > very big apps like e.g. OO.o in the readahead set. > > So, I think these numbers are good and there's still some room for > improvement; e.g. it takes ten seconds from grub to when the initrd is > mounted - surely the kernel can boot faster? It's after all 25% of the > time spent from grub until I have usable desktop. > > The bad thing is that this approach is highly specific to my system (and > thus why I'm not posting an RPM with it :-), however I think it clearly > shows where improvements should be made; here are some random thoughts > > a. We should keep track of files being loaded and maintain the > readahead fileset as appropriate. printk() doesn't seem like the > right solution; perhaps a system daemon using inotify or the > kernel events layer is the road ahead? This would enable us to > readahead the KDE stuff if the user is e.g. using KDE a lot. > > b. ext3 should support operations for moving blocks around; e.g. > optimize around the readahead fileset - when idle the system should > rearrange the files to facilitate faster booting > > c. the start_udev and kmodule process could be cached as I did above > > d. The whole init(1) procedure seems dated; perhaps something more > modern built on top of D-BUS is the right choice - SystemServices > by Seth Nickell comes to mind [1]. Ideally services to be started > would have dependencies such as 1) don't start the gdm service > before /usr/bin/gdm is available; 2) the SSH service would only > be active when NetworkManager says there is a network connection; > /usr from LABEL=/usr would only be mounted when there is a volume > with that label and so forth. Also, such a system would of course > have support for LSB init scripts. > (This is probably a whole project on it's own so I'm omitting > detailed thinking on it for now) Hopefully this could also allow us to make system-config-services look a lot slicker. I've never liked the way it has random text spewage for each service's status - some kind of widgetry would satisfy my eye-candy cravings. > > Thanks a lot to Ziga Mahkovec for the bootchart software - it's been > very useful. > > Have fun, > David > > [1] : http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4711 > http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/2003/Sep/27 > From tadams-lists at myrealbox.com Tue Nov 30 20:23:56 2004 From: tadams-lists at myrealbox.com (Trever L. Adams) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:23:56 -0700 Subject: print configuration In-Reply-To: <1101845309.2798.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101844214.2798.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101844175.2684.19.camel@kyrre> <1101845309.2798.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101846236.9659.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 13:08 -0700, Trever L. Adams wrote: > Right now, silly, I know, there is no firewall within my network. There > is one on the route to the outside world. This will probably be > changing, but it isn't right now. Rule of thumb, make sure you have it on the right interface. If you have it on all, and this box is an internal router (stupid stupid, I know), the firewall barfs on the packet. Set it to the local (non-firewalled) side, and wow, there you go. Sorry to have wasted time and bandwidth. Trever -- "There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -- Albert Einstein From elanthis at awesomeplay.com Tue Nov 30 20:24:25 2004 From: elanthis at awesomeplay.com (Sean Middleditch) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:24:25 -0500 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <20041130201614.GF956419@hiwaay.net> References: <20041130144913.GA15676@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130171728.GB10115@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101841021.11035.27.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1101843604.11035.30.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <20041130201614.GF956419@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: <1101846265.11035.50.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 14:16 -0600, Chris Adams wrote: > Once upon a time, Neal D. Becker said: > > Are you sure? What if you: > > 1) duplicate the directory (using hardlinks to files) > > 2) atomic rename directory > > You can't do step #2. You can only rename over an existing directory if > the directory is already empty. > > The only way you can do something like what you say is if you create the > directories under a different name and use symlinks to point to them > (you can replace a symlink atomically by creating a new symlink under a > new name and then renaming the symlink over the old one). Would this actually be atomic? What if two apps tried doing this at once? One makes db-1 as the temp work directory, another makes db-2 as the temp dir, and then whoever makes the symlink last gets the symlink pointing to their data, resulting in the previous process' changes being silently lost. You'd have to do locking, which I noted the problems with (NFS in particular) in my other mail. Or, if Elektra were to use a daemon that centralizes access, you wouldn't need the locking (only one process doing this at a time), but Elektra won't do that for several sort-of-almost good reasons of early bootup. (I suppose if the DB is read-only you can do without the daemon, and early bootup probably would be read-only, so you can have Elektra start the daemon later on, but I'm not sure how well that would work either - yet more race conditions between apps reading something when the daemon starts and potentially starts changing stuff.) > > If you go that way, you have to have a clean-up program. Otherwise, > unclean shutdowns (either of the management program(s) or of the system) > will leave stuff all over the place. You could use a log to make the > clean-up faster, and rotate the log out when it is processed (i.e. along > the lines of db_checkpoint and db_archive from BDB). > > -- > Chris Adams > Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services > I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. > -- Sean Middleditch AwesomePlay Productions, Inc. From alan at lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Tue Nov 30 19:44:08 2004 From: alan at lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:44:08 +0000 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <1101839022.3783.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101836596.1676.31.camel@davidz> <1101839022.3783.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101843846.25617.116.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Maw, 2004-11-30 at 18:23, Jim Gettys wrote: > David, > > I agree with you and Kristian and I have started work, specifically on > the input system side to do exactly what you suggest. Similar > work ought to be done someday for the screens themselves (hotplug being > a reality even for screens; today with PCMCIA and PCI express is just > beginning to ship). Mobility Electronics have been shipping cardbus hotplug video for about 5 or 6 years now (E1000V). They make fun toys for this sort of testing and are cheap on ebay generally 8) From cmadams at hiwaay.net Tue Nov 30 20:54:45 2004 From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:54:45 -0600 Subject: Elektrified X.org released (was: X configuration paradigm, and a proposal) In-Reply-To: <1101846265.11035.50.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> References: <20041130162338.GA10244@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20041130171728.GB10115@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1101841021.11035.27.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <1101843604.11035.30.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> <20041130201614.GF956419@hiwaay.net> <1101846265.11035.50.camel@support02.civic.twp.ypsilanti.mi.us> Message-ID: <20041130205444.GH956419@hiwaay.net> Once upon a time, Sean Middleditch said: > You'd have to do locking, which I noted the problems with (NFS in > particular) in my other mail. I was ignoring that. I was presuming write locking was already being done somewhere; I just described what would have to be done to have atomic updates such that the data stays internally consistent across a crash. Reading would also require locks, unless you can only fetch a single value at a time. Basically, trying to use the filesystem to implement a transactional database is not a good idea. If you want a transactional database, use a transactional database library (i.e. BDB) and supply a few command-line dump and restore type tools for emergency editing (as long as the database doesn't get internally corrupted). -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. From paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk Tue Nov 30 21:13:36 2004 From: paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk (Paul) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:13:36 +0000 Subject: /proc/bus/usb ?? In-Reply-To: <20041130193538.GB21461@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <45136.12.41.112.51.1101836256.squirrel@webmail.ec-group.com> <20041130193538.GB21461@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101849216.3541.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, > > I'm guessing that I should know this, sorry, but with the last initscripts > > update, I now get a message like > > "can't find /proc/bus/usb in /etc/fstab or /etc/mtab" > > The various mount -f statements need redirected to /dev/null. Another initscripts bug or something which we can fix with a bit of jiggery hackery? I've submitted a bug which includes this to bugzilla. TTFN Paul -- "I'm gonna hit the highway like a bat out of hell with a Cilla Black fan on the bike" - Meatloaf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From david at fubar.dk Tue Nov 30 22:43:01 2004 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:43:01 -0500 Subject: adventures in booting In-Reply-To: <1101846047.4131.44.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1101692986.2025.22.camel@davidz> <1101846047.4131.44.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1101854581.1676.87.camel@davidz> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 15:20 -0500, David Malcolm wrote: > On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 20:49 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > > Awesome! So... is no-one else going to reply to this email? > > Various comments inline below... > Thanks! > > Hey, > > > > So, I've looked a bit more into the booting process and how to optimize > > it. Mostly based on the discussion triggered by Owen's boot poster > > challenge, here > > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg00447.html > > > > and also some experiments that I did - basically replacing rhgb with gdm > > as described here > > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-November/msg00066.html > > > > What I've done is a bit crude - I've replaced init(1) with a shell > > script based on /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit and tried to optimize specifically > > for my system: IBM Thinkpad T41 laptop with a Pentium M processor at > > 1600MHz along with 512MB of RAM. > > If I understand, you're also optimising for a specific user of that > system. Yeah, out of 5189 files (193MB), 231 of them (31MB) are from my home directory. Due to the way I've instrumented the kernel (printk() in fs/namei.c function link_path_walk()) this also includes files that are only stat(2)'ed. Which means that e.g. /home/davidz/Desktop/Stuff/kernel-2.6.9-1.751_EL.i686.rpm of size approx 10MB are loaded. So 193MB is a bit high, however, since files are being stat(2)'ed anyway there will be a disk seek to the inode so to play it safe we need that block as well. Thus, readahead would be better to do on the block layer level; also because shared objects like e.g. libgtk-x11-2.0.so contains a lot of deprecated API's nobody uses anyway (e.g. don't load those pages). > Is it worth splitting the readahead into a system-wide list of > files (enough to get to the login screen), followed by a per-user list > for logging in as a user? Could be done, yeah. > To what extent will the files needed to get > to a usable desktop vary between Alice and Bob? I dunno; if Bob uses, say, 50MB worth of .pdf documents every time he logs in we should preload those (that isn't at all out of the ordinary if Bob uses a lot of reference manuals). The list of files (blocks) should be generated from several criteria including how often they are read. Ideally we always start a daemon in early boot to monitor this and rearrange blocks on the disk when idle or perhaps every week. > > d. The whole init(1) procedure seems dated; perhaps something more > > modern built on top of D-BUS is the right choice - SystemServices > > by Seth Nickell comes to mind [1]. Ideally services to be started > > would have dependencies such as 1) don't start the gdm service > > before /usr/bin/gdm is available; 2) the SSH service would only > > be active when NetworkManager says there is a network connection; > > /usr from LABEL=/usr would only be mounted when there is a volume > > with that label and so forth. Also, such a system would of course > > have support for LSB init scripts. > > (This is probably a whole project on it's own so I'm omitting > > detailed thinking on it for now) > > Hopefully this could also allow us to make system-config-services look a > lot slicker. I've never liked the way it has random text spewage for > each service's status - some kind of widgetry would satisfy my eye-candy > cravings. > Heh, and sweet icons too :-) Cheers, David From d.lesca at solinos.it Tue Nov 30 22:45:26 2004 From: d.lesca at solinos.it (Dario Lesca) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:45:26 +0100 Subject: samba: printer list is wrong Message-ID: <1101854726.2635.97.camel@lesca.home.solinos.it> Is this a issue of new version of samba or a my wrong configuraton (the smb.conf is a standard file released whit samba) ? [lesca at lesca lesca]$ smbclient -L printerone Password: Domain=[DOM] OS=[Unix] Server=[Samba 3.0.9-1.fc3] Sharename Type Comment --------- ---- ------- tmp Disk Temporary file space pubblica Disk Cartella pubblica x Tutti IPC$ IPC IPC Service (Samba Server Printerone) ADMIN$ IPC IPC Service (Samba Server Printerone) hp4000N Printer laser1 hp4050N Printer laser2 hp4200N Printer laser3 lasri1 Printer lasri1 ............ Printer share name IS laser1, descri is hp4000N ecc... I have other printers whit the same description (hp4000N) but whit different name: [lesca at sispay ~]$ lpstat -v device for laser1: socket://laser1:9100/ device for laser2: socket://laser2:9100/ device for laser3: socket://laser3:9100/ device for laser4: socket://laser4:9100/ device for laser5: socket://laser5:9100/ device for laser6: socket://laser6:9100/ device for lasri1: socket://lasri1:9100/ [root at sispay lesca]# grep -B 1 Info /etc/cups/printers.conf Info hp4000N -- Info hp4050N -- Info hp4200N -- Info hp4200N -- Info hp4050N -- Info hp4050N -- Info hp4200N Many thanks -- Dario Lesca From davej at redhat.com Tue Nov 30 23:52:29 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:52:29 -0500 Subject: Recent Fedora Core kernels (plus my SPEC file for 2.6.8-1.541 with Athlon support) In-Reply-To: References: <1096222216.3779.73.camel@bitman.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <20040926181809.GD24689@angus.ind.WPI.EDU> <20041129030004.GD27169@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041130235229.GA6149@redhat.com> On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 11:36:23AM -0500, William M. Quarles wrote: > Dave Jones wrote: > > > > > C. If it doesn't hurt and it would probably help, I don't see what's > > the > matter with making an Athlon-optimized kernel. > > > >A number of reasons. > >- It's one more column in the matrix of supported kernels to worry about. > > This may seem insignificant, but it takes quite a while to push > > a kernel package through the buildsystem given how many variants > > it spits out. On a busy day (like for eg, just before release), it > > can take the better part of a day to get packages built. > >- The gain just isn't worth it over the 2.4 kernels. > > Now that the runtime optimisations get performed in 2.6, theres only > > one thing thats missing that would be in an Athlon optimised kernel, > > and thats the optimised copy_page/clear_page, which are really only > > a win when a lot of data is being copied back/forth between the kernel, > > and even then, only under certain usage patterns. I'll be surprised > > if this shows up on any real-world application. > > > Apparently the man who started this thread found his real-world > applications. I don't see any numbers. There's also nothing specifically indicating that building for Athlon is why he saw a performance win. If something else also got disabled (even inadvertantly), that could also factor into it. Dave