Default browser of FC3?

[Lars E. Pettersson]

On 10/10/2004 03:35 AM, Ricardo Veguilla wrote:
>>I mentioned some reasons earlier, but one may also ask the question, why 
>>Epiphany? Why not Mozilla, Konquerer, or Firefox?
> 
> Well, since I'm interested in hearing what is wrong with epiphany,
> asking why other browsers aren't the default is pretty much irrelevant.

Please read the thread. Reasons for using Firefox have been given. I saw 
  no reason repeating these reasons (but if you want me to I can do 
that) instead I wanted to broaden the discussion by also asking the 
question above. I, and others, have given reasons for using Firefox, so 
the question, why Epiphany, is quite valid at this place of the discussion.

>>I think the default should reflect the number of users of that 
>>application. I.e. the most used browser should be the default, and I do 
>>not think that Epiphany is the most used browser at the moment. 
> 
> Quite frankly I don't think the current number of users is a good reason
> to choose the distribution's default browser.

Why not? What should be used to chose the default application?

> Based on this argument,
> many people would never be exposed to new software, among other things.

They will be interested if the choice is there and users of said 
application is pushing people to test and use the application. It is all 
up to marketing. If you like Epiphany, market it! If people like it, 
they will use it. If they do not like it, they will not use it.

> I'm obviously assuming that all the popular browser are available for
> those who want to use them.

Yes, the choice have to be there for those wanting to test different things.

>>It is 
>>used, I know, but not the most used. I do not think either that it will 
>>be the most used, it is probably too minimalistic for most users. So why 
>>Epiphany?
> 
> Its simple, minimal and tightly integrated to Gnome, thats exactly why
> the Gnome project decided to use it as official browser and I think its
> the same in the Red-Hat/Fedora case.

Thanks for answering my question "Why Epiphany."

First, I think the "tightly integrated to Gnome" is irrelevant as Fedora 
is not a Gnome only distribution. Gnome may be the default if you do not 
make an active choice while installing Fedora, but making a truly Gnome 
specific application the default for Fedora entirely, is in my thinking 
wrong. Why not use a Kde specific application as the default? Your 
proposal to use different "defaults" in different environments, 
mentioned in another part of this thread, is a good one, although I do 
not see any reason for making Epiphany default, even in Gnome. It should 
be there as an option for users wanting minimalism, but it is in my 
opinion not suited as a default.

Regarding minimal that may, or may not be, a good thing. The bad thing 
is that this lead to less choice, which will make it hard to use. Choice 
is not a bad thing, choice is a good thing. Minimalism is important in 
critical applications though, but a browser is not a critical application...

Simple, well it might be, but all browsers are rather simple to use, so 
I can not see that is a special issue for Epiphany. Firefox is also 
simple to use, as an example.

>>At the moment I think the most used browser in the Fedora community is 
>>Mozilla, based on it being the "default" now, and the spread use it has 
>>both in Linux, and other operating systems. As the Mozilla team now seem 
>>to push Firefox, I would seem logical for Fedora to follow this and set 
>>Firefox as the default.
> 
> Mozilla is the most popular because it was the default.
> 
> Epiphany is not popular because its not the default... so...
> Epiphany should not be the default because its not popular.

A high popularity means a huge user base. A huge user base means a lot 
of people to ask questions if one gets lost. I am not saying that 
Epiphany should not be the default because it's not popular, I am saying 
Mozilla/Firefox should be used due the huge user base. If Epiphany would 
rise to the heavens and get a huge user base, by all means, make it the 
  default. But let it get a huge user base and popularity before making 
it the default, so that new users have people to ask for help if they 
get stuck.

> Firefox should be the default because, even though its not the most
> popular (the ideal element of the default browser, in your opinion), its
> the offspring of Mozilla which is the most popular.

If Firefox was not there, Mozilla would be the obvious choice. But as 
the Mozilla team is pushing Firefox as the browser, Fedora would follow 
this. Clear enough?

> If I understood your position correctly, your arguments against epiphany
> (which was what I asked for in my original email) are:
>  
> a) its minimalistic (which seems to be the "main" feature of epiphany)
> b) its not the most popular browser at this moment

It has in some areas driven the minimalistic trend too far, making it 
hard to use sometimes. Epiphany is, in my point of view, a niche 
application for those that want and like minimalistic applications. It 
is not suited as a default.

The popularity of the browser is, perhaps, the most important part 
though. New users will need help, we should then have defaults that 
reflect the user base. A huge user base means that a newbie easier will 
get help from someone.

> If you (and I, and everyone else that likes something different) can
> change the default browser to something else, whats the point of asking
> a user who may not know what firefox, epiphany,galeon or mozilla, to
> chose a browser?

Choice! You give the user the choice to chose a default. If he/she do 
not like this choice, he/she may change it with the preferred 
application, and/or file types and programs dialog box. Most new users 
come from the Microsoft windows world, and know, and can use, both 
Mozilla and Firefox. Why should we steer them to Epiphany?

> I think that this boils down to the question: Who is the target user for
> that default app/setting/etc? In my experience default values are for
> newbies... experienced user usually changed the defaults to whatever
> they like (except when the default "Just Work" ;).  

Yes, experienced user may, and will, change defaults. So looking from 
the newbies point of view. What is best for a newbie, a browser that is 
used by a lot of users, even in Microsoft Windows, where most newbies 
come from, or a browser with a small user base, with few people to get 
help from? (And I want to repeat, I do not think that this user base 
will rise especially higher even by making Epiphany the default browser 
in Gnome, and/or the whole Fedora.)

For me the choice is quite obvious, one should use the browser that has 
a huge user base. Why? Because the confused newbie then will have a lot 
of experienced users to ask questions to.

So, even from a newbie point of view I can not see that the choice of 
Epiphany as the default, be it in Gnome only, or the whole Fedora, is a 
good one.

Lars
-- 
Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/