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Re: Leaving?

Hi Hans,

> I'm seriously considering switching distro's after the AIGLX and target
> audience discussion. I cannot believe how arrogant most of the replies
> are, saying that if user install any third party software that then that
> thirdparty software is their problem.

I'm not siding with anyone here and have kept quiet for most of the
AIGLX discussion, but I feel I must speak here.

When I was much wetter behind the ears, I used to use the nVidia binary
driver. It would annoy the hell out of the other half as everytime I did
a kernel upgrade, bang went X, though she didn't mind being able to play
the 3D games.

Due to only running rawhide, I use the xorg driver, the other half uses
an Intel card machine so 3D is still okay without any brain dead binary
only driver.

What is my point? When I used to go onto various forums and explain the
problem, replies came mainly in as "what do you expect? if you use a
binary only driver things break as it will rely on a very specific set
of code - you thick or something?"; in other words, if you use something
which is binary only, on your own head be it. I found that sort of
response (as a newbie) as much good as a chocolate toaster!

> I also find this very hypocrite because normally when any chance
> breaking thirdparty software is proposed for inclusion into the current
> release people start screaming loudly. Like for example any suggestions
> to introduce an update to Extras with an soname chance. But since the
> thirdparty software breaking in this case is non OSS and since some very
> LOUD people happen to dislike the thirdparty software breaking in this
> case, they are all of of a sudden in favor of breaking thirdparty
> software during a what is supposed to be stable release?

People like stable systems. They should be using FC-5 and not the
developmental versions. We know the risks when we install. If they want
to be really dumb, they should be pointed in the direction of Debian
(and I refer here to the speed at which they release stable versions).

I have always seen FC and FC-rawhide as a testing bed which moves Linux
forward at sometimes a breakneck speed which is why it's now such a
major threat to the closed software community. If a change needs to be
made (as was the case moving to xorg.7) which breaks the likes of the
nVidia drivers in either core or extras, that's a problem for nVidia -
not for us. If users don't like it, so what.

> I'm just totally stunned by the arrogance in this discussion, the I'm
> holier then thou stance. And most of all the total disregards to the
> many end users who happen to rely on the thirdparty software in case.

Again - depends on the third party software. I'm not bothered on video
drivers, but some apps need compat-c++ libs. Some people (and I know
this is the case as my sister uses some) use software so long in the
tooth that they can *only* run something around RH8. A point has to be
decided on after which you cannot justifiably offer support. I think
that this is where a lot of the derision is.

> I'm seriously starting to think that Fedora is not the distro for me to
> be working on and switching to Ubuntu (by lack of a better alternative),
> now some of the arrogant screamers may say fine, we won't miss you but
> before saying so I would first take a look at owners.list in FE cvs and
> than think again.

Please. No. We want you and need you here.

> This is not meant as some kinda blackmail to stop the Xorg 7.1 update,
> to be honest at this point I don't care about the 7.1 update anymore.
> And as I said when I started the target audience discussion this was
> never about the 7.1 update. Its about the principle of not knowingly
> having a yum update during a stable release breaks peoples systems,
> especially not with a smile on your face and saying behind those end
> users backs that will teach them not to use binary crap. Because that
> _IS_ what is happening here. Sure there are many advancements in xorg
> 7.1 and I'm not suggesting to leave it out FC-6 even if the binary
> drivers aren't available at FC-6 launch time, but breaking stuff with
> TOTAL disregard to a large group of end users, during a stable's release
> lifetime is IMHO unacceptable. 

You can always WARN people that the update is likely to break binary
drivers and if they're unsure, just don't apply the xorg updates (it can
be made to be one of the "protected" parts so yum doesn't update it).

> And what worries me is not this single
> instance of breaking, its the attitude behind it and the ease with which
> we (you?) step over the all of a sudden minor problem of seriously
> hurting a significant group of end users.

All I can say is remember FC1 and 3 and how much they broke. Remember
the problems with RH9 (especially if you were on <=8 at the time).

I agree Hans. We can't break things willy-nilly. Then again, we can't
take the attitude that we don't release because it breaks a binary only

Perhaps the key is closer working with the likes of ATI and nVidia so
they can get the correct drivers out in time (nVidia were really bad
when we moved to xorg).


"Logic, my dear Zoe, is merely the ability to be wrong with authority" -
Dr Who

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