Leaving?

[Hans de Goede]

Sean wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 09:12:52 +0200
> Hans de Goede <j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl> wrote:
> 
>> I'm seriously considering switching distro's after the AIGLX and target
>> audience discussion. I cannot believe how arrogant most of the replies
>> are, saying that if user install any third party software that then that
>> thirdparty software is their problem.
> 
> That hasn't been the only response.  There have been suggestions
> about how those providing support for third party software could manage
> the software they supply to improve the situation.  The main point is
> that Fedora should not be held hostage by the whims of these outside
> providers.
>  

I keep hearing this argument, that the packages for the involved drivers
 can be made to conflict with the update. Which in essence will deprive
all but the most technical of our users from security updates. So this
is a moot argument. ? Deprive all but the most technical of our users
from security updates is almost as bad as completly breaking their system.

Yes completly breaking for a non technicall user an X server refusing to
start is almost impossible to fix.

> [snip]
>> I'm just totally stunned by the arrogance in this discussion, the I'm
>> holier then thou stance. And most of all the total disregards to the
>> many end users who happen to rely on the thirdparty software in case.
> 
> There isn't a total disregard for many end users, rather a regard for
> those who will benefit from this upgrade.  It has been made pretty clear
> that those using binary driver need not suffer if their systems are
> properly configured.  If their systems _aren't_ properly configured
> to deal with a kernel update or X update from core, then this seems
> like a very useful conversation to have now so that there is time
> to get those systems into shape beforehand.
> 

They will suffer, see above. Not all our users are yum wizzards.

> [snip]
>> This is not meant as some kinda blackmail to stop the Xorg 7.1 update,
>> to be honest at this point I don't care about the 7.1 update anymore.
>> And as I said when I started the target audience discussion this was
>> never about the 7.1 update. Its about the principle of not knowingly
>> having a yum update during a stable release breaks peoples systems,
>> especially not with a smile on your face and saying behind those end
>> users backs that will teach them not to use binary crap. Because that
>> _IS_ what is happening here. Sure there are many advancements in xorg
>> 7.1 and I'm not suggesting to leave it out FC-6 even if the binary
>> drivers aren't available at FC-6 launch time, but breaking stuff with
>> TOTAL disregard to a large group of end users, during a stable's release
>> lifetime is IMHO unacceptable. And what worries me is not this single
>> instance of breaking, its the attitude behind it and the ease with which
>> we (you?) step over the all of a sudden minor problem of seriously
>> hurting a significant group of end users.
> 
> This update should _not_ hurt a significant group of end users.  If the
> binary drivers are supplied and supported properly nobody should be hurt
> by this upgrade.  And it definitely will help a significant group of users.
> Let's not deprive those users who would benefit from this upgrade
> without a very good reason.
> 

You keep saying it won't hurt them if that other repo makes their
drivers conflict. They will hurt from frustating error messages they
don't understand and from lack of security updates see above.

> Those that really care about this issue could take the time now to help
> the users they care about.  Updating instructions and howtos for users
> so they know how to deal with an upgrade to X (or the kernel).  Talking
> with 3rd party repos to make sure that the rpms they provide are designed
> to protect their users from problems they might experience when the core X
> or kernel is updated.  Letting users on the mailing lists know about an
> upcoming X upgrade.  I'm sure there are other things that could be done
> as well.
> 

Why should those that care tell the user how to work around a problem
being created by people who appereantly don't care? And here we have the
real problem, the real problem is not this update this is just an
example the real problem is many Fedora developers seem to be so
arrogant that they don't care about their endusers. Thank you I guess
that is what frustates me the not caring, now can we please start
discussing that which IMHO is the real issue and stop discussing the
example.

Regards,

Hans