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Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Dimi Paun <dimi lattica com> wrote:
> So what do we get for asking that we see this changed?
>  - snide remarks

In this thread..ive seen snide comments from multiple parties on both
sides.  I've seen a round in the cycle of existing hostilities.  There
are no saints here, we are all sinners.  Keeping score of the assumed
intent of the multitude of emotional comments on one side or the other
is futile and serves no useful purpose. If you are keeping score of
snide comments, then you've already given up on a constructive
discussion.  You have to be able to give everyone the benefit of the
doubt as to intent. The medium of email is excruciatingly poor at
communicating irrational emotive discourse. The subtle nuances of body
language, or vocal and facial ques which regulate the flow of face to
face conversations are not there to help us read intent with any
accuracy whatsoever.

>  - we are ask to produce numbers nobody can produce

In this thread, I have not seen the decision makers ask that numbers
be produced. I see numbers being produced by people to sustain their
own arguments and getting upset that other are critical of the
numbers.  The numbers are a false premise, they shouldn't be debated,
they should be summarily ignored. To debate them gives credibility to
the idea that accurate numbers are going to impact the design, and no
one has come forward and promised that in this thread..

>  - we are sent on wild goose chances "upstream" when this
>    is a packages maintained by RH.

Yes this has happened in this thread. I have in fact done this myself
before and I still stand by it.  If this change is going to be made is
going to be made as part of an upstream discussion around the design
goals of the default GNOME experience, a discussion broader in scope
than this one change.

I think the proponents of change do a disservice to their chosen cause
in choosing the argumentation they have so far.  Trying to coerce a
change by hammering away with the blunt instruments of populism.  It's
not going to work. Coercion is the wrong method and populist arguments
are the wrong tool.  You have to persuade the decision-makers, and to
do that you have to understand how they prioritize and think.   The
art of persuasion is a subtle science. It's brain surgery, not to be
performed with the hammer or rhetoric or with the pitchforks and
torches  of populist appeal.   You have to crawl inside the heads of
the people whose minds you are looking to change, and think like them.

> But hey, these things happen, we can work around them. What's not cool
> is the attitude that it's OK to diss the users. That just sucks the
> fun out of being part of Fedora.

I think you are reading way to much into the responses of a a very
long and very heated discussion which this thread is but one chapter.
The exact same sort of thing could be said about it being uncool to
diss developers.  There have certainty been posts in this thread which
could be read as dissing developers.  I think we can all agree that
its uncool to diss people generally.  I'll go further and say that
most people are going to screw up and when things get heated are going
to choose words poorly and end up writing something that is laced with
too much emotion and will be interpreted as a personal slight or
attack.  The real trick is figuring out how to make it possible to
keep those mistakes from invoking another round of emotional responses
in a self-perpetuating cycle of over-reaction.


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