From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Wed Apr  1 01:03:39 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:03:39 -0500
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <1238508985.5005.1378.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49CD379D.8040104@verizon.net>
	<1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>	<gqr9qk$mk3$1@ger.gmane.org>	<faa16b610903301337i7cd94e4dr61c995c084231a37@mail.gmail.com>	<gqraro$rqj$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238508985.5005.1378.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gquehb$23p$1@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Jackson wrote:
> So let's list the cases that zap would actually recover from:
> 
> 1: stuck grabs
> 2: focus reverts to None and your window manager is dead
> 3: X driver that's decided to stop rendering (or stop rendering
> correctly)
4: "log out"... didn't. :-)

There's no data loss since I'm trying to make X shut down anyway. (And, 
guess what? VT switching *doesn't work* with NVIDIA's so-called 
"drivers". It'll be wonderful to have nouveau learn how to support 
triple-head across two boards.)

While I do have access to other machines from which I could ssh in, 
there's a huge convenience difference between giving the three-finger 
salute and getting immediately back to work, and powering up another 
box, logging in, finding X, killing it, going back down the hall to my 
machine, finding out it didn't work, trying again...

(I've not filed bugs any of the many occasions this has happened because 
I'm using trunk KDE; I tend not to bother filing bugs against stuff that 
has a high probability of having been fixed before I even noticed it, 
and might well be due to a bad build on my end.)

In the grand scheme of things, I log out so infrequently it's not a huge 
deal, but I still think disabling c-a-bs is the wrong decision.

-- 
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
-- 
This is a big deal, because now some tiny minority has lobbied for 
changes that end up hurting everyone else.
Yeah, I know. Par for the course. I hate the American government.
Actually, I was talking about X.org...



From itamar at ispbrasil.com.br  Wed Apr  1 01:28:46 2009
From: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br (Itamar Reis Peixoto)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:28:46 -0300
Subject: Orphan package: reiserfs-utils
In-Reply-To: <ufa8wmlz6el.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>
References: <ufa8wmlz6el.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <d3ceea380903311828r7feb3f22ve985c00ce47babf7@mail.gmail.com>

I will take it and let it's live for more time (probably until next merge
review).

I am still have some machines running with reiserfs



On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs at math.uh.edu>wrote:

> Jeff Garzik has indicated in the merge review ticket
> (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=226367) that he has had
> no interest in maintaining reiserfs-utils for some time and so I have
> orphaned it for him.  If someone wishes to maintain this package,
> please feel free to pick it up but keep in mind that the merge review
> linked above needs doing (which should be quite easy) and, though I'm
> sure it's obvious to anyone who cares, that the package needs
> updating.
>
>  - J<
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
------------

Itamar Reis Peixoto

e-mail/msn: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
sip: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
skype: itamarjp
icq: 81053601
+55 11 4063 5033
+55 34 3221 8599
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From bruno at wolff.to  Wed Apr  1 04:45:17 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:45:17 -0500
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <1238529617.4135.69.camel@valkyrie.localdomain>
References: <49CD379D.8040104@verizon.net> <1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>
	<gqr9qk$mk3$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<faa16b610903301337i7cd94e4dr61c995c084231a37@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0903301345k4298d9bqd2564600acdd3469@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238452000.9331.57.camel@valkyrie.localdomain>
	<gqtd6l$fli$3@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238519440.4135.42.camel@valkyrie.localdomain>
	<gqtkob$d78$4@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238529617.4135.69.camel@valkyrie.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090401044517.GA31311@wolff.to>

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 16:00:17 -0400,
  Matthew Saltzman <mjs at clemson.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 19:43 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> > > OK (I'm trying to picture it, and I keep seeing Rose Mary Woods
> > > demonstrating how she "accidentally" created the infamous 18-minute gap
> > > in the Watergate tapes), but it's still "unlikely" if you are typing,
> > > much more so than any Ctrl-Alt-<whatever> key combo.
> > 
> > I accidentally hit it with my foot.
> 
> Did you move the machine after that, or do you now tie your feet to the
> chair posts?

After accidentally hitting the switch on a powerstrip, I taped an angle
bracket over it so I couldn't do that again.



From bruno at wolff.to  Wed Apr  1 04:52:34 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:52:34 -0500
Subject: koji / kernel feedback...
In-Reply-To: <49D23317.9030104@gnat.ca>
References: <49D23317.9030104@gnat.ca>
Message-ID: <20090401045234.GB31311@wolff.to>

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 09:13:27 -0600,
  "Nathanael D. Noblet" <nathanael at gnat.ca> wrote:
> Recently I started using some kernels built directly from Koji to test  
> out some hardware issues. So now I am mostly happily running 2.6.29-10  
> from a koji build. I'd like to provide feedback if its wanted on the  
> issues it has fixed for me, as well as some regressions I've noticed.  
> I'm not sure it warrants a bug as much as, installed and X now works, Y  
> doesn't, and a bug in Z resurfaced...
>
> Is this a karma thing, or a bug thing, or just put it on the list thing?

I don't think you can do karma unless it gets pushed to bodhi, which doesn't
happen for rawhide. So I think bugzilla is the only reasonable option.
(You can try the devel list, but that's pretty hut or miss whether the people
that might want to see your feedback will see it.)



From ffesti at redhat.com  Wed Apr  1 07:28:30 2009
From: ffesti at redhat.com (Florian Festi)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:28:30 +0200
Subject: question about git workflow
In-Reply-To: <1238517722.4757.42.camel@choeger6>
References: <1238517722.4757.42.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <49D3179E.5070107@redhat.com>

Christoph H?ger wrote:
> Hi there dvcs users,
> 
> I am getting used to using git while working with upstream projects. So
> when I try to make a patch available upstream, I encounter the following
> problem: I want to make small commits during my work but of course send
> the result as a single patch via git format-patch. So what's best:
> 
> 1. clone upstream, create another local branch, work there, and then
> merge that branchs changes via diff?
> 
> 2. use <UNKNOWN_GIT_COMMAND> to merge those commits into a single one?
> 
> 3. do not use intermdiate local commits (bad idea)
> 
> And the final question: When I got to the point of sending one single
> patch and upstream merges it, how can I resync with upstream without
> having to clone again? 

Git is a very powerful tool (set) and there are different ways of doing 
things. Im my experience it is a good idea to keep the fingers off the 
master branch and do everything in local branches (lots of them if 
necessary). I use qgit to visualize them so it is easy to see how they look 
like. After upstream has commited your changes you can either rebase or 
delete your local branch. I try to avoid merges completely and do everything 
with rebases.

Before commiting/submitting patches upstream I typically clean them up using 
rebase -i and even spliting some of them up (git add -i). This creates a 
clean history that allows easier error detection (using git bisect) and 
understanding what the patches are about. This is IMHO one of the main 
benefits of git over most other VCS, but it requires some extra effort and a 
different understanding of what your work is.

Florian



From rjones at redhat.com  Wed Apr  1 08:10:51 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:10:51 +0100
Subject: ARM build failures
Message-ID: <20090401081051.GA16787@amd.home.annexia.org>

I got lots and lots of build failures from ARM this morning, for
example:

http://arm.koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=4096

Anything I need to do about this?  Do we have an interactive machine
for testing and development?

Rich.

(Which reminds me I must look at sparc64 builds ...)

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-p2v converts physical machines to virtual machines.  Boot with a
live CD or over the network (PXE) and turn machines into Xen guests.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-p2v



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 08:34:22 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:34:22 +0100
Subject: ARM build failures
In-Reply-To: <20090401081051.GA16787@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <20090401081051.GA16787@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904010134l2811d9bo6867b741a5883bed@mail.gmail.com>

> I got lots and lots of build failures from ARM this morning, for
> example:
>
> http://arm.koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=4096
>
> Anything I need to do about this? ?Do we have an interactive machine
> for testing and development?

I got a lot of similar failures as well but it looks like all the
builds were due to missing dependencies and not actual failures of the
package themselves.

Peter



From panemade at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 08:35:41 2009
From: panemade at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?UGFyYWcgTijgpKrgpLDgpL7gpZop?=)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:05:41 +0530
Subject: ARM build failures
In-Reply-To: <20090401081051.GA16787@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <20090401081051.GA16787@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <f4586a2e0904010135x19ee30dfs292eaba89a61ce3f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Richard W.M. Jones <rjones at redhat.com>wrote:

> I got lots and lots of build failures from ARM this morning, for
> example:
>
> http://arm.koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=4096
>
> Anything I need to do about this?  Do we have an interactive machine
> for testing and development?
>
> Rich.
>
> (Which reminds me I must look at sparc64 builds ...)
>
>
  I too got my builds failed. There is mass rebuild going on for F10 stable
repository packages. Ocaml package is not built there but mass rebuild
attempted to build ocaml-SDL and thus failed.
  I am not sure how much time it takes. I got this information from
#fedora-arm channel.

Regards,
Parag.
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From hughsient at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 08:36:57 2009
From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:36:57 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090331 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090331095832.8F3911B8001@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090331095832.8F3911B8001@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1238575017.4730.12.camel@hughsie-work.lan>

On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 09:58 +0000, Rawhide Report wrote:
> DeviceKit-power-007-2.fc11
> --------------------------
> * Mon Mar 30 2009 Richard Hughes <richard at hughsie.com> 007-1
> - Update to 007

Which is broken. Please update to
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1269589

Apologies.

Richard.




From paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk  Wed Apr  1 08:42:45 2009
From: paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk (Paul F. Johnson)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:42:45 +0100
Subject: Borked system after last nights rawhide update
Message-ID: <20090401083658.M85681@all-the-johnsons.co.uk>

Hi,

I did a big update last night from rawhide and other than the Noveau problem
with GDM which has been updated, I didn't notice any problems. Then my system
crashed...

When I rebooted inittab was missing and udev was unable to find anything (I
had loads of udev failures for finding anything within /dev).

As yet, I'm unable to get that machine to reboot and return to a desktop (it
will get through to being able to log in, but as it can't find any of the
groups or users, it can't be logged in).

I can boot from a RIPLinux disc and mount the drive, so everything is still
there (which is good).

Any ideas on how to fix this problem? I've not seen any other reports on here
so far.

TTFN

Paul

--
It's only me, only me and no-one else.



From bugs at cherrybyte.me.uk  Wed Apr  1 09:17:10 2009
From: bugs at cherrybyte.me.uk (planetf1)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 10:17:10 +0100
Subject: Adobe flash - high CPU, F11, radeon
In-Reply-To: <f6ca9fed0903311236g6c9d2ca6l489b798318606eb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <gqtqpu$5g5$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<f6ca9fed0903311236g6c9d2ca6l489b798318606eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gqvbem$4dd$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 31/03/09 20:36, drago01 wrote:

> mkdir -p /etc/adobe/
> echo "OverrideGPUValidation=1">  /etc/adobe/mms.cfg

Thanks -- unfortunately didn't help. Still seeing that high CPU
Out of interest a downloaded file in iplayer (I think this is ~800 kbps) 
is taking @65% in app ~30% in Xorg.



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 10:04:16 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:04:16 +0100
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <a9ba50e50903311452u420e4fc0l98f62484b47c83e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>
	<20090331212432.GB98694@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<a9ba50e50903311452u420e4fc0l98f62484b47c83e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904011104.16340.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 31 March 2009 22:52:35 Robert Marcano wrote:

> 1cm is enough to make a mistake

Yup. Just last year I accidentally type "crontab -r" instead of "-e" ...

Perhaps all destructive commands should be removed ;o)



From linuxhippy at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 10:32:01 2009
From: linuxhippy at gmail.com (Clemens Eisserer)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 06:32:01 -0400
Subject: Adobe flash - high CPU, F11, radeon
In-Reply-To: <gqvbem$4dd$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gqtqpu$5g5$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<f6ca9fed0903311236g6c9d2ca6l489b798318606eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<gqvbem$4dd$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <194f62550904010332n6a0678d5g50b0359096ff581a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

> Thanks -- unfortunately didn't help. Still seeing that high CPU
> Out of interest a downloaded file in iplayer (I think this is ~800 kbps) is
> taking @65% in app ~30% in Xorg.
Yes, its quite the same for me, however I have a intel gpu.

Well, 30% for Xorg is a lot, but still its flash consuming the
remaining 65% which is way too high.
When using mplayer to play downloaded flash videos, it stays between
the 10-20% mark.
So adobe's flash plugin simply looks like not tuned a lot.

- Clemens



From jreznik at redhat.com  Wed Apr  1 10:47:50 2009
From: jreznik at redhat.com (Jaroslav Reznik)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:47:50 +0200
Subject: Borked system after last nights rawhide update
In-Reply-To: <20090401083658.M85681@all-the-johnsons.co.uk>
References: <20090401083658.M85681@all-the-johnsons.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200904011247.50537.jreznik@redhat.com>

On Wednesday 01 April 2009 10:42:45 Paul F. Johnson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I did a big update last night from rawhide and other than the Noveau
> problem with GDM which has been updated, I didn't notice any problems. Then
> my system crashed...
>
> When I rebooted inittab was missing and udev was unable to find anything (I
> had loads of udev failures for finding anything within /dev).

I have same issue - for me easy solution worked - I've reinstalled it with 
f11-beta as I needed to test our KDE image and it's my testing laptop. And I 
have no glue what happened to file a bug...

Jaroslav

> As yet, I'm unable to get that machine to reboot and return to a desktop
> (it will get through to being able to log in, but as it can't find any of
> the groups or users, it can't be logged in).
>
> I can boot from a RIPLinux disc and mount the drive, so everything is still
> there (which is good).
>
> Any ideas on how to fix this problem? I've not seen any other reports on
> here so far.
>
> TTFN
>
> Paul
>
> --
> It's only me, only me and no-one else.

-- 
Jaroslav ?ezn?k <jreznik at redhat.com>
Associate Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 731 455 332
Red Hat, Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com/



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Wed Apr  1 11:56:41 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:56:41 +0200
Subject: Borked system after last nights rawhide update
In-Reply-To: <20090401083658.M85681@all-the-johnsons.co.uk>
References: <20090401083658.M85681@all-the-johnsons.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20090401115641.GB15208@tango.0pointer.de>

On Wed, 01.04.09 09:42, Paul F. Johnson (paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk) wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I did a big update last night from rawhide and other than the Noveau problem
> with GDM which has been updated, I didn't notice any problems. Then my system
> crashed...
> 
> When I rebooted inittab was missing and udev was unable to find anything (I
> had loads of udev failures for finding anything within /dev).
> 
> As yet, I'm unable to get that machine to reboot and return to a desktop (it
> will get through to being able to log in, but as it can't find any of the
> groups or users, it can't be logged in).
> 
> I can boot from a RIPLinux disc and mount the drive, so everything is still
> there (which is good).
> 
> Any ideas on how to fix this problem? I've not seen any other reports on here
> so far.

You have to find all .rpmsave files that got renamed and rename them
back.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492947

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From ndbecker2 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 13:00:37 2009
From: ndbecker2 at gmail.com (Neal Becker)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:00:37 -0400
Subject: ARM build failures
References: <20090401081051.GA16787@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<5256d0b0904010134l2811d9bo6867b741a5883bed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gqvohl$di6$2@ger.gmane.org>

Peter Robinson wrote:

>> I got lots and lots of build failures from ARM this morning, for
>> example:
>>
>> http://arm.koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=4096
>>
>> Anything I need to do about this?  Do we have an interactive machine
>> for testing and development?
> 
> I got a lot of similar failures as well but it looks like all the
> builds were due to missing dependencies and not actual failures of the
> package themselves.
> 
> Peter
> 

I not only got this, but they don't seem to be the current stable packages.





From robert at marcanoonline.com  Wed Apr  1 13:10:55 2009
From: robert at marcanoonline.com (Robert Marcano)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 08:40:55 +1930
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <200904011104.16340.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
References: <1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>
	<20090331212432.GB98694@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<a9ba50e50903311452u420e4fc0l98f62484b47c83e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904011104.16340.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a9ba50e50904010610i6a85afbavd595596c65224291@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Bill Crawford
<billcrawford1970 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday 31 March 2009 22:52:35 Robert Marcano wrote:
>
>> 1cm is enough to make a mistake
>
> Yup. Just last year I accidentally type "crontab -r" instead of "-e" ...
>
> Perhaps all destructive commands should be removed ;o)
>
It is amazing how people is able to say anything to win an argument (I
count myself too :-P), when you typed the letter "r" did it executed
immediately without giving you time to read and press enter?, I am
pretty sure the answer is no. Control+alt+bs does not gives anyone
time to fix the mistake, maybe if the X servers were able to check if
you pressed that key combination for 4 seconds (like the power buttons
case already mentioned) I could be against the zap option
deactivation, but that is not the case


-- 
Robert Marcano



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 13:12:06 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 08:12:06 -0500
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <200904011104.16340.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
References: <1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>
	<20090331212432.GB98694@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<a9ba50e50903311452u420e4fc0l98f62484b47c83e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904011104.16340.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904010612p1060cc0am4b6e5fffdf0643a5@mail.gmail.com>

Don't think that a typo is the same as a key combination... but I see
where you're coming from. I still stand behind upstream's decision
because its really their decision to make.

-Adam

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 5:04 AM, Bill Crawford
<billcrawford1970 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday 31 March 2009 22:52:35 Robert Marcano wrote:
>
>> 1cm is enough to make a mistake
>
> Yup. Just last year I accidentally type "crontab -r" instead of "-e" ...
>
> Perhaps all destructive commands should be removed ;o)
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 13:37:46 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:37:46 +0100
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <a9ba50e50904010610i6a85afbavd595596c65224291@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>
	<200904011104.16340.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<a9ba50e50904010610i6a85afbavd595596c65224291@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904011437.47186.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 01 April 2009 14:10:55 Robert Marcano wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Bill Crawford
>
> <billcrawford1970 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 31 March 2009 22:52:35 Robert Marcano wrote:
> >> 1cm is enough to make a mistake
> >
> > Yup. Just last year I accidentally type "crontab -r" instead of "-e" ...
> >
> > Perhaps all destructive commands should be removed ;o)
>
> It is amazing how people is able to say anything to win an argument (I
> count myself too :-P)

I did have my tongue firmly in my cheek there :)

> , when you typed the letter "r" did it executed 
> immediately without giving you time to read and press enter?, I am
> pretty sure the answer is no. Control+alt+bs does not gives anyone
> time to fix the mistake, maybe if the X servers were able to check if
> you pressed that key combination for 4 seconds (like the power buttons
> case already mentioned) I could be against the zap option
> deactivation, but that is not the case

I'd be happy with a (small!) delay. I just can't understand the mentality that 
there shouldn't be an off switch in case someone presses it ;o)



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 13:57:44 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:57:44 +0200
Subject: rpms/transifex/F-9 .cvsignore, 1.3, 1.4 sources, 1.6, 1.7
 transifex.spec, 1.6, 1.7
In-Reply-To: <20090401131339.809F070144@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090401131339.809F070144@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090401155744.14acc2b3@faldor.intranet>

On Wed,  1 Apr 2009 13:13:39 +0000 (UTC), Ignacio wrote:

> Author: ivazquez
> 
> Update of /cvs/pkgs/rpms/transifex/F-9

> Log Message:
> - Upstream update
>   * Fixed ordering of components untranslated by a Release X Lang
>   * Fixed missing parameter for the set_stats_for_lang method call
>   * Fixed msgfmt to work large files
> - Fixed small bug in %%post
> - Fixed PROJECT_PATH in the settings

> -Requires:   intltool >= 0.40.5
> +Requires:   intltool >= 0.37.1

What is the full story here which would explain why the minimum version
was too high for F-9? And what is really the lowest support version?
FWIW, the spec included in the tarball still requires >= 0.40.5



From rrakus at redhat.com  Wed Apr  1 14:35:42 2009
From: rrakus at redhat.com (Roman Rakus)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:35:42 +0200
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
Message-ID: <49D37BBE.8020406@redhat.com>

Hi all (not only interested in system config tools  ;-) .
In next few days will be filled huge number of bugs in bugzilla against 
s-c-* tools. Don't worry, all of them will be fixed :) Review of all 
s-c-* tools is done and results are on wiki page [1].
Every s-c-* tool should be hosted in fedorahosted [2]. And it will be 
good if our team will have access to repository.


[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SystemConfig/Tools
[2] http://fedorahosted.org/web/

System Config Cleanup Team



From bugs at cherrybyte.me.uk  Wed Apr  1 14:49:58 2009
From: bugs at cherrybyte.me.uk (planetf1)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:49:58 +0100
Subject: Adobe flash - high CPU, F11, radeon
In-Reply-To: <194f62550904010332n6a0678d5g50b0359096ff581a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <gqtqpu$5g5$1@ger.gmane.org>	<f6ca9fed0903311236g6c9d2ca6l489b798318606eb@mail.gmail.com>	<gqvbem$4dd$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<194f62550904010332n6a0678d5g50b0359096ff581a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gqvuum$78t$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 01/04/09 11:32, Clemens Eisserer wrote:

> So adobe's flash plugin simply looks like not tuned a lot.
It's awful... I'll raise a performance issue with adobe...

I tried on an Intel gfx Ubuntu 9.10 system with the same performance issue.



From iarnell at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 15:56:49 2009
From: iarnell at gmail.com (Iain Arnell)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:56:49 +0200
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <49D37BBE.8020406@redhat.com>
References: <49D37BBE.8020406@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <81487f820904010856n1f044ff4vc55a49c542916649@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Roman Rakus <rrakus at redhat.com> wrote:
>
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SystemConfig/Tools

Did I miss something, or doesn't authconfig deserve to be included
too? As system-config-authentication maybe?

-- 
Iain.



From rrakus at redhat.com  Wed Apr  1 16:22:24 2009
From: rrakus at redhat.com (Roman Rakus)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:22:24 +0200
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <81487f820904010856n1f044ff4vc55a49c542916649@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49D37BBE.8020406@redhat.com>
	<81487f820904010856n1f044ff4vc55a49c542916649@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D394C0.4090308@redhat.com>

Iain Arnell wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Roman Rakus <rrakus at redhat.com> wrote:
>   
>> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SystemConfig/Tools
>>     
>
> Did I miss something, or doesn't authconfig deserve to be included
> too? As system-config-authentication maybe?
>
>   
Updated. Also soon will be added system-config-selinux review.
RR



From jreznik at redhat.com  Wed Apr  1 16:26:09 2009
From: jreznik at redhat.com (Jaroslav Reznik)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 18:26:09 +0200
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <81487f820904010856n1f044ff4vc55a49c542916649@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49D37BBE.8020406@redhat.com>
	<81487f820904010856n1f044ff4vc55a49c542916649@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904011826.09796.jreznik@redhat.com>

On Wednesday 01 April 2009 17:56:49 Iain Arnell wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Roman Rakus <rrakus at redhat.com> wrote:
> > [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SystemConfig/Tools
>
> Did I miss something, or doesn't authconfig deserve to be included
> too? As system-config-authentication maybe?

Sorry,
we missed it while syncing our internal wiki with Fedora wiki. It's now 
included in the list (as it was quite outdated).

Thanks for info.

Jaroslav

> --
> Iain.

-- 
Jaroslav ?ezn?k <jreznik at redhat.com>
Associate Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 731 455 332
Red Hat, Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com/



From alsadi at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 16:31:25 2009
From: alsadi at gmail.com (Muayyad AlSadi)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 19:31:25 +0300
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <200904011826.09796.jreznik@redhat.com>
References: <49D37BBE.8020406@redhat.com>
	<81487f820904010856n1f044ff4vc55a49c542916649@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904011826.09796.jreznik@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <385866f0904010931m7f1e8784s6c7e6a4d62ea0bc8@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote this
Add a new tab to enable/disable useshares and control them with
something like this

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SystemConfig/samba/review#User_shares



From Jochen at herr-schmitt.de  Wed Apr  1 17:23:54 2009
From: Jochen at herr-schmitt.de (Jochen Schmitt)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:23:54 +0200
Subject: Where are the Summaries of the FESCo meetings?
Message-ID: <49D3A32A.5080203@herr-schmitt.de>

Hallo,

in the past there was a good practice that the summaries of the FESCo 
meeting was
posted on this mailing list.

Unfortunately, I have to recorgnised that this was not happens after the 
meeting time
was moved to friday. The last summary which I have found on the 
FESCo-page in the
wiki was from the meeing on 3/6/2009.

Not all people have the time to following the FESCo meeting live on the 
IRC channel
and reading a IRC log may be painful.

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt



From itamar at ispbrasil.com.br  Wed Apr  1 18:14:36 2009
From: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br (Itamar Reis Peixoto)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:14:36 -0300
Subject: fc10 files in Fedora beta DVD
Message-ID: <d3ceea380904011114tfbdc79arc6ee5cbb9a725557@mail.gmail.com>

after mass rebuild why some packages still have fc10 in their names ?






[root at vps1 media]# pwd
/media

[root at vps1 media]# cat media.repo
[InstallMedia]
name=Fedora 11-Beta
mediaid=1238017014.113790
metadata_expire=-1
gpgcheck=0
cost=500


[root at vps1 media]# find |grep fc10
./Packages/axis-1.2.1-4.1.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/bitmap-fonts-0.3-6.fc10.noarch.rpm
./Packages/classpathx-jaf-1.0-12.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/flex-2.5.35-2.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/geronimo-specs-1.0-2.M2.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/geronimo-specs-compat-1.0-2.M2.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/gnome-desktop-sharp-2.24.0-3.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/jakarta-commons-el-1.0-9.4.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/jakarta-commons-httpclient-3.1-0.3.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/jline-0.9.94-0.2.fc10.noarch.rpm
./Packages/jtidy-1.0-0.2.r7dev.1.3.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/libcap-2.10-2.fc10.i386.rpm
./Packages/libcap-2.10-2.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/libcap-devel-2.10-2.fc10.i386.rpm
./Packages/libcap-devel-2.10-2.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/lklug-fonts-0.2.2-6.fc10.noarch.rpm
./Packages/msv-msv-1.2-0.2.20050722.3.4.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/msv-xsdlib-1.2-0.2.20050722.3.4.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/oprofile-0.9.4-3.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/oprofile-gui-0.9.4-3.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/plexus-i18n-1.0-0.b6.5.3.fc10.noarch.rpm
./Packages/redhat-lsb-3.2-2.fc10.i386.rpm
./Packages/redhat-lsb-3.2-2.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/velocity-1.4-7.3.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/ws-commons-util-1.0.1-10.fc10.x86_64.rpm
./Packages/ws-jaxme-0.5.1-2.4.fc10.noarch.rpm
[root at vps1 media]#


-- 
------------

Itamar Reis Peixoto

e-mail/msn: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
sip: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
skype: itamarjp
icq: 81053601
+55 11 4063 5033
+55 34 3221 8599
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From tcallawa at redhat.com  Wed Apr  1 18:18:11 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:18:11 -0400
Subject: fc10 files in Fedora beta DVD
In-Reply-To: <d3ceea380904011114tfbdc79arc6ee5cbb9a725557@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d3ceea380904011114tfbdc79arc6ee5cbb9a725557@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D3AFE3.7040100@redhat.com>

On 04/01/2009 02:14 PM, Itamar Reis Peixoto wrote:
> after mass rebuild why some packages still have fc10 in their names ?

Those would be all the packages that failed the mass rebuild. A lot of
those java packages are unmaintained, if memory serves.

~spot



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr  1 18:48:12 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:48:12 -0700
Subject: Radeon Test Day: Wednesday April 1st (yes, really)
In-Reply-To: <pan.2009.03.31.23.35.52@ebourne.me.uk>
References: <1238441078.4338.89.camel@adam.local.net>
	<pan.2009.03.31.23.35.52@ebourne.me.uk>
Message-ID: <1238611692.4338.177.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 23:35 +0000, Martin Ebourne wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:24:38 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > Be it hereby announced that this Wednesday, the first of the glorious
> > month of April (ignore Eliot, he was a douche), shall be the Test Day
> > for the radeon video driver. Which is used, as you may already have
> > deduced, for ATI Radeon (and FireGL) video cards. All of 'em.
> > 
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:Radeon_2009-04-01
> 
> Is there anything specific to test the vsync/tear free video that has 
> recently been added to radeon - and which hardware it is expected to work 
> on?

Not really, the tests aren't that granular. If you're familiar with the
issue and how it should look pre- and post- fix, you can do it as part
of the Xv test, I guess.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From louisg00 at bellsouth.net  Wed Apr  1 18:58:59 2009
From: louisg00 at bellsouth.net (Louis E Garcia II)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:58:59 -0400
Subject: Checksums don't match
Message-ID: <1238612339.16737.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Just downloaded the torrent of fedora 11 beta x86-64 iso and get a
different sha1 checksum. The CHECKSUM file says:

5d0296c46d4af54bd0891e709a9bc89eef5bdd1eee1796e3fd165096353a5552
*Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso

I get:

9351bcf7c9bf654f0cf366723377fcb414a95721
Download/Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD/Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso

I'm able to open the iso in archive manager so I don't think it's
corrupt. Any thought?

-Thanks



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr  1 19:00:45 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:00:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Checksums don't match
In-Reply-To: <1238612339.16737.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238612339.16737.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904011500270.8847@localhost.localdomain>



On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Louis E Garcia II wrote:

> Just downloaded the torrent of fedora 11 beta x86-64 iso and get a
> different sha1 checksum. The CHECKSUM file says:
>
> 5d0296c46d4af54bd0891e709a9bc89eef5bdd1eee1796e3fd165096353a5552
> *Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso
>
> I get:
>
> 9351bcf7c9bf654f0cf366723377fcb414a95721
> Download/Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD/Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso
>
> I'm able to open the iso in archive manager so I don't think it's
> corrupt. Any thought?

run:

sha256sum not sha1sum

-sv



From mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp  Wed Apr  1 19:05:01 2009
From: mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Mamoru Tasaka)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 04:05:01 +0900
Subject: rpms/kdepim/devel kdepim.spec,1.211,1.212
In-Reply-To: <20090401185524.90D747011D@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090401185524.90D747011D@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D3BADD.2030108@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>

Rex Dieter wrote, at 04/02/2009 03:55 AM +9:00:
> Author: rdieter
> 
> Update of /cvs/pkgs/rpms/kdepim/devel
> In directory cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com:/tmp/cvs-serv11129
> 
> Modified Files:
> 	kdepim.spec 
> Log Message:
> * Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-2
> - optimize scriptlets
> 
> 
> 
> Index: kdepim.spec
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /cvs/pkgs/rpms/kdepim/devel/kdepim.spec,v
> retrieving revision 1.211
> retrieving revision 1.212
> diff -u -r1.211 -r1.212
> --- kdepim.spec	31 Mar 2009 15:03:24 -0000	1.211
> +++ kdepim.spec	1 Apr 2009 18:54:54 -0000	1.212
> -%postun
> -xdg-icon-resource forceupdate --theme hicolor 2> /dev/null || :
> -xdg-icon-resource forceupdate --theme oxygen 2> /dev/null || :
> -xdg-desktop-menu forceupdate 2> /dev/null || :
> +%posttrans
> +gtk-update-icon-cache %{_kde4_iconsdir}/hicolor &> /dev/null ||:
> +gtk-update-icon-cache %{_kde4_iconsdir}/oxygen &> /dev/null ||:
> +update-desktop-database -q &> /dev/null ||:
>  
> +%postun
> +if [ $1 -eq 0 ] ; then
> +  touch --no-create %{_kde4_iconsdir}/hicolor &> /dev/null ||:
> +  touch --no-create %{_kde4_iconsdir}/oxygen &> /dev/null ||:
> +  gtk-update-icon-cache %{_kde4_iconsdir}/hicolor &> /dev/null ||:
> +  gtk-update-icon-cache %{_kde4_iconsdir}/oxygen &> /dev/null ||:
> +  update-desktop-database -q &> /dev/null ||:
> +fi
>  
>  %post libs -p /sbin/ldconfig

Can "update-desktop-database" be moved to %posttrans and
(%postun : if [ $1 -eq 0 ] ; then) ? 
Current packaging guidelines don't suggest it so I am just asking
(I have moved "gtk-update-icon-cache" to %posttrans and so on
 in my packages)

Regards,
Mamoru



From louisg00 at bellsouth.net  Wed Apr  1 19:08:53 2009
From: louisg00 at bellsouth.net (Louis E Garcia II)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:08:53 -0400
Subject: Checksums don't match
In-Reply-To: <1238612339.16737.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238612339.16737.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1238612933.16737.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 14:59 -0400, Louis E Garcia II wrote:
> Just downloaded the torrent of fedora 11 beta x86-64 iso and get a
> different sha1 checksum. The CHECKSUM file says:
> 
> 5d0296c46d4af54bd0891e709a9bc89eef5bdd1eee1796e3fd165096353a5552
> *Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso
> 
> I get:
> 
> 9351bcf7c9bf654f0cf366723377fcb414a95721
> Download/Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD/Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso
> 
> I'm able to open the iso in archive manager so I don't think it's
> corrupt. Any thought?
> 
> -Thanks

In the CHECKSUM file you should change Hash: SHA1 to Hash: SHA256

to avoid confusion.




From powerswitch1972 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  1 18:52:04 2009
From: powerswitch1972 at yahoo.com (J C)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:52:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Automated System Recovery Tool
Message-ID: <288390.53237.qm@web45816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I  have made the following proposal for Google Summer of Code 2009 and posted it here on the advice of Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay and Toshio Kuratomi for Peer Review.



Title:  Automated System Recovery Tool  
Student:  Jeff Chandler  
Abstract:  
An automated system
recovery tool is needed for average users to feel secure using Fedora
as their primary Desktop OS. Fedora and other Gnu/Linux distros can be
rendered useless to the non-technical user by a failed binary driver
install (Video cards, wireless ethernet, etc.) or malicious programs.
For these users, there is no easy fix available. I propose a daemon
that tracks changes in the filesystem and can restore installed
programs and configuration to a previous point in time when the system
was working. Suspect programs would be cordoned off into a secure area.
A tie-in with smolt could be used to identify troublesome packages.  
Content:  
== Why do you want to work with our team? ==
 I have used Fedora for 3 years and it is my favorite Gnu/Linux
Distribution.  I would love to contribute to its development and make
it more accessible to mainstream users.
== Do you have any past involvement with our team or another open source project? ==
Please desribe your past open source experience.
  My occupation involves installing and servicing Digital Video
Recorders for CCTV systems. These systems run Proprietary Software on 
top of Gnu/Linux and frequently are poorly coded and have multiple
problems, plus nearly useless technical support from the manufactures. 
Open Source Tools have been invaluble in troubleshooting and solving
the many issues I've faced with these systems.  Even without the source
code of the proprietary software, I've been able to use open source
tools to preserve my companies good reputation with our customers. 
Objdump and bvi have been particularly useful.
== Why should we choose you over other applicants? ==
At 37, I am much older than most students, but I have a lot of
experience in real world applications and the benefits of things that
"just work" and are easily recoverable.
 
== Proposal Description ==
Please describe your proposal in detail.  Include:
* An overview of your proposal 
   A daemon that would track changes in the filesystem, installed
packages and versions, and configuration information.  In the event of
a system failure or corruption (by a binary driver, user error,...)the
Automated System Recovery Tool could be used to restore the system to a
previous time.  The daemon would also keep a copy of non-standard (not
available from the standard repos) packages for reinstall. The tool
could also be used as a System Backup utility to store all system and
user data in a compressed file in case of a total system or hardware
failure. A tie-in with smolt could be used to make users aware of
system crashing drivers for specific harware.
* The need you believe it fulfils
   To penetrate mainstream desktops, Fedora needs to be more
accessible to the average computer user.  One of the many hurdles to
this goal, is earning the confidence of the user.  The user must feel
that any corruption of the system or mistake by the user has an easy
and effective solution for recovery with no or minimal loss of data.
* Any relevant experience you have
   Many, many hours spent recovering from failed attempts to use
binary drivers for video adapters and wireless ethernet.  For the last
4 years I've been engaged in independent study of C and Python
programming, Bash Scripting,  and Linux administration.
 
* How you intend to implement your proposal
Create scripts to check the file tree and logs for new packages,
configuration changes and new user data.  Create a baseline file
monthly, that can be used independently to perform restores, add change
files weekly or daily (selected by user) to be used in conjunction with
baseline file.  Create Graphical tool for user setup and use of
Automated System Recovery Tool.  Use combination of custom scripts and
yum to implement actual recovery system.
* A rough timeline for your progress
  1.) Implement daemon to record system changes to a recovery file. 1 week
  2.) Implement Graphical Interface for user interaction. 1 week
  3.) Implement System Recovery backend 2 weeks
  4.) Test and Debug. 2 weeks
* Any other details you feel we should consider


      
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From mitr at volny.cz  Wed Apr  1 19:12:56 2009
From: mitr at volny.cz (Miloslav =?UTF-8?Q?Trma=C4=8D?=)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:12:56 +0000
Subject: Checksums don't match
In-Reply-To: <1238612933.16737.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238612339.16737.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238612933.16737.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1238613176.3305.47.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Louis E Garcia II p??e v St 01. 04. 2009 v 15:08 -0400:
> On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 14:59 -0400, Louis E Garcia II wrote:
> > Just downloaded the torrent of fedora 11 beta x86-64 iso and get a
> > different sha1 checksum. The CHECKSUM file says:
> > 
> > 5d0296c46d4af54bd0891e709a9bc89eef5bdd1eee1796e3fd165096353a5552
> > *Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso
> > 
> > I get:
> > 
> > 9351bcf7c9bf654f0cf366723377fcb414a95721
> > Download/Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD/Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso
> > 
> > I'm able to open the iso in archive manager so I don't think it's
> > corrupt. Any thought?
> > 
> > -Thanks
> 
> In the CHECKSUM file you should change Hash: SHA1 to Hash: SHA256
Incidentally, we will - but that Hash: line does not refer to the
content at all.  It is a part of the PGP signature.
	Mirek



From ml at kiewel-online.ch  Wed Apr  1 19:14:52 2009
From: ml at kiewel-online.ch (Uwe Kiewel)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 21:14:52 +0200
Subject: NetworkManager - Can not store wireless pass phrase
Message-ID: <49D3BD2C.3090203@kiewel-online.ch>

Hi,

I cannot store the pass phrase for my wireless lan in NetworkManager.

Procedure:
- left click on NM icon
- selecting my wireless lan
- entering my pass phrase
- connect successful

Later:
- right click on NM icon
- edit connection -> wireless
- selecting my connection -> Edit -> wireless security
- box for pass phrase is empty
- entering my pass phrase
- clicking apply
- closing window

Repeating this procedure, the in wireless security, there is no pass 
phase :-(

Is this a bug or is there an error in my procedure?


Thanks,
	Uwe



From rdieter at math.unl.edu  Wed Apr  1 19:33:13 2009
From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:33:13 -0500
Subject: rpms/kdepim/devel kdepim.spec,1.211,1.212
References: <20090401185524.90D747011D@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<49D3BADD.2030108@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <gr0fhp$98r$1@ger.gmane.org>

Mamoru Tasaka wrote:

> Can "update-desktop-database" be moved to %posttrans and
> (%postun : if [ $1 -eq 0 ] ; then) ?
> Current packaging guidelines don't suggest it so I am just asking
> (I have moved "gtk-update-icon-cache" to %posttrans and so on
>  in my packages)

shrug, I see no reason why not... but it turns out in my quick testing that
scriptlet processing speed doesn't benefit from this much, if at all.

-- Rex



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  1 19:49:35 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 20:49:35 +0100
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
Message-ID: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>

hi guys, i'm trying to run the xfce f11 spin on my acer aspire one but i 
can't even get it to make it to the login screen, is there any known 
problems with this spin? when i run it from usb it stops during the 
hardware detection, just after it detects and sets up the usb items it 
just stops in place. it isn't frozen as it still accepts the three 
fingered salute and puts the machine down for reboot properly.

when i try to run it in qemu it gets to the same point then prints

"IO APIC Resources cannot be allocated"

and freezes there, anyone have any ideas what's up or any suggestion in 
how to start debugging this

tia
phil




From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 19:52:00 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 01:22:00 +0530
Subject: cluttermm: M4 macros for gmmproc
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904011252g7d3d4eb1p18b5575951a6ed4a@mail.gmail.com>

Is there any reason to get rid of the M4 macros used by gmmproc using
the following snippet?

# Remove files related to code generation
rm -rf $RPM_BUILD_ROOT%{_libdir}/cluttermm-0.8

I am curious since gtkmm24-devel does not remove them.

Happy hacking,
Debarshi



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 19:56:12 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:56:12 -0500
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>

I'm actually having a similar issue when trying to test in VirtualBox.
I see the boot up process (I forget the name of the new replacement
thing) load the progress bar and then just a blank screen. I plan to
boot to real hardware soon as soon as I have some free time and see if
i can get to a tty to check logs and such. Otherwise I will be trying
to compose a more updated image in a few days and try again.

-Adam

-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 19:59:46 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:59:46 -0400
Subject: rpms/transifex/F-9 .cvsignore, 1.3, 1.4 sources, 1.6, 1.7
	transifex.spec, 1.6, 1.7
In-Reply-To: <20090401155744.14acc2b3@faldor.intranet>
References: <20090401131339.809F070144@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<20090401155744.14acc2b3@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <1238615987.18788.123.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 15:57 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Wed,  1 Apr 2009 13:13:39 +0000 (UTC), Ignacio wrote:
> 
> > Author: ivazquez
> > 
> > Update of /cvs/pkgs/rpms/transifex/F-9
> 
> > Log Message:
> > - Upstream update
> >   * Fixed ordering of components untranslated by a Release X Lang
> >   * Fixed missing parameter for the set_stats_for_lang method call
> >   * Fixed msgfmt to work large files
> > - Fixed small bug in %%post
> > - Fixed PROJECT_PATH in the settings
> 
> > -Requires:   intltool >= 0.40.5
> > +Requires:   intltool >= 0.37.1
> 
> What is the full story here which would explain why the minimum version
> was too high for F-9? And what is really the lowest support version?
> FWIW, the spec included in the tarball still requires >= 0.40.5

It was a guess based on the fact that the EL5 intltool is too old, and
it worked with the F10 intltool. I have verified that it works with the
F9 intltool and have adjusted the spec file in Fedora cvs accordingly.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  1 21:26:37 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 22:26:37 +0100
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>
	<f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com>

Adam Miller wrote:
> I'm actually having a similar issue when trying to test in VirtualBox.
> I see the boot up process (I forget the name of the new replacement
> thing) load the progress bar and then just a blank screen. I plan to
> boot to real hardware soon as soon as I have some free time and see if
> i can get to a tty to check logs and such. Otherwise I will be trying
> to compose a more updated image in a few days and try again.
>
> -Adam
>
>   
well at least i now know i'm not alone with this problem, hopefully it 
will be an easy fix as d/l the f11 betas for the three different arch's 
in my household has put me over my b/w limit so i'm on a restricted 
connection till the next billing date :(

phil



From debayanin at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 21:39:23 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 03:09:23 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,
I need some feedback on the feasibility of the proposal below from this list.


ADDING ONE CLICK INSTALL SUPPORT TO FEDORA (Package-Kit in effect)


To install a package x in Fedora one has to add the
repository via the command line (or gui) and then type "yum install x"
to get the package installed.
In the one-click-install feature we have an xml file per-package which
contains information in it such as package name,version,repository
links (for installing further dependencies), GPG key etc. One may
upload these xml files on the web and an user may click on these xml
files in a browser. Once downloaded the a parser parses the contents
of the file and automatically adds the requisite repositories and
downloads requisite packages for dependency preservation.

I have been discussing this topic simultaneously on 2 lists because of
the nature of the problem. Here are the 2 threads:

[1] http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/packagekit/2009-March/004569.html

[2] http://groups.google.com/group/redhat-summer/browse_thread/thread/50de9e16d5407b9c

I think its time to summarise my proposal. The way I see it, there are
4 things to do:

1) Add .oci support to package-kit.
2) Add pluggable policies
3) Add voting system to package manager
4) A server that receives these votes and maintains a list of repos in
sorted order. The distro maintains this. Leave it to the user which
repo he wants to add now.

Explanation:
1)Add .oci support to package-kit:
This involves adding C code to Package-Kit. Much of the work has been
done by Dorian Perkins and is available at
http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~dperkins/projects/pk-oci/.

2)Pluggable Policies:
The policy of what to allow to install will not be agreed

across all distributions.
So instead of discussing a policy that will never get unanimous

approval the install policy pluggable, and allowing the distribution
to choose the policy may be better.
Some example policies would be

* Only allow packages in the distribution itself
* Only allow packages that are whitelisted or in whitelisted repository
* Allow installation of anything that is not on a blacklist
* Allow installation of anything"

(In words of Benji Webber)

3) Add voting system to Package Manager:
The word trust has to mean something that the end user understands, as
opposed to GPG keys. One way of defining trust is by votes. It is my
proposal that we enable a voting system at the package manager end so
that every time a repository is added and a package installed for the
first time users are asked for a "Recommend" vs "Do not recommend"
vote. Conversely, every time a user disables/removes a repository he
is asked whether he votes "Do not recommend". These votes go to a
centrallised server


I was advised on the Fedora list by Patrick Barnes to use the voting
approach. I thought it made sense since it will keep evil people
(repositories) away
the same way wikipedia protects itself from evil people.
Also there may be admins, like me, who shall ban a particular
repository from the listings if it is found to be a malicious
repository. If a repo is evil, there *will* be several "do not
recommend" votes to it too which will attract attention.

4) A server that receives votes and maintains a listing of
repositories in sorted order:
We could make modifications to <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb>
so that it provides one-click-install links to all packages thus.
Similar efforts are at:

[1] http://www.apturl.net/
[2] http://packages.opensuse-community.org/
[3] http://www.allmyapps.com/

I can set up a prototype server which
accepts these votes and displays reposiories/packages accordingly.
Once I have successfully built all the things I have mentioned, I dont
mind buying hosting space to host it as a proof of concept.

-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From james at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr  1 21:56:06 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:56:06 -0400
Subject: Automated System Recovery Tool
In-Reply-To: <288390.53237.qm@web45816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <288390.53237.qm@web45816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1238622966.31472.61.camel@code.and.org>

On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 11:52 -0700, J C wrote:
> 
> Title:  Automated System Recovery Tool  
> Student:  Jeff Chandler  
> Abstract:  
> An automated system
> recovery tool is needed for average users to feel secure using Fedora
> as their primary Desktop OS. Fedora and other Gnu/Linux distros can be
> rendered useless to the non-technical user by a failed binary driver
> install (Video cards, wireless ethernet, etc.) or malicious programs.
> For these users, there is no easy fix available.

 How are you going to run your daemon (let alone the UI to command it)
if arbitrary parts of the system are broken?

>  I propose a daemon
> that tracks changes in the filesystem and can restore installed
> programs and configuration to a previous point in time when the system
> was working. Suspect programs would be cordoned off into a secure
> area.

 So do you only protect packages, and not all files on disk?
 If more than packages how do you tell which ones (reverting a config.
file might require reverting a package, and it's much more likely the
other way around).
 If only package data, then you should really be monitoring/using the
"yum history" database (not written, yet, but planned for this year).

[...]
>    A daemon that would track changes in the filesystem, installed
> packages and versions, and configuration information.  In the event of
> a system failure or corruption (by a binary driver, user error,...)the
> Automated System Recovery Tool could be used to restore the system to
> a
> previous time.  The daemon would also keep a copy of non-standard (not
> available from the standard repos) packages for reinstall. The tool
> could also be used as a System Backup utility to store all system and
> user data in a compressed file in case of a total system or hardware
> failure.

 A backup utility like this would be a huge undertaking, on it's own, I
think (even if you ignored the packaging aspect).

[...]
> * A rough timeline for your progress
>   1.) Implement daemon to record system changes to a recovery file. 1
> week
>   2.) Implement Graphical Interface for user interaction. 1 week
>   3.) Implement System Recovery backend 2 weeks
>   4.) Test and Debug. 2 weeks
> * Any other details you feel we should consider

 IMO the above is "optimistic".

-- 
James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>
Fedora



From james at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr  1 22:08:28 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:08:28 -0400
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 03:09 +0530, Debayan Banerjee wrote:
> Dear List,
> I need some feedback on the feasibility of the proposal below from this list.
> 
> 
> ADDING ONE CLICK INSTALL SUPPORT TO FEDORA (Package-Kit in effect)
> 
> 
> To install a package x in Fedora one has to add the
> repository via the command line (or gui) and then type "yum install x"
> to get the package installed.

 Indeed, there are two steps:

1) I trust XYZ, to get packages from.
2) I install package Foo from XYZ.

...it's possible these steps could be done within a single command or
made more userfriendly in many ways, but you still need two steps.

> In the one-click-install feature we have an xml file per-package which
> contains information in it such as package name,version,repository
> links (for installing further dependencies)

 We already have a format for repository metadata, why do you want to
use a different one?

> , GPG key etc. One may
> upload these xml files on the web and an user may click on these xml
> files in a browser. Once downloaded the a parser parses the contents
> of the file and automatically adds the requisite repositories and
> downloads requisite packages for dependency preservation.

 It can't do this "automatically", it still needs the user to sign off
on the two distinct steps above.

[...]
> Explanation:
> 1)Add .oci support to package-kit:
> This involves adding C code to Package-Kit. Much of the work has been
> done by Dorian Perkins and is available at
> http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~dperkins/projects/pk-oci/.

 This was rejected previously due to not being secure, what has changed?

> 2)Pluggable Policies:
> The policy of what to allow to install will not be agreed
> 
> across all distributions.
> So instead of discussing a policy that will never get unanimous
> 
> approval the install policy pluggable, and allowing the distribution
> to choose the policy may be better.
> Some example policies would be

> * Only allow packages in the distribution itself
> * Only allow packages that are whitelisted or in whitelisted repository
> * Allow installation of anything that is not on a blacklist
> * Allow installation of anything"

 We already have this, it's called GPG key management.

> 3) Add voting system to Package Manager:
> The word trust has to mean something that the end user understands, as
> opposed to GPG keys. One way of defining trust is by votes. It is my
> proposal that we enable a voting system at the package manager end so
> that every time a repository is added and a package installed for the
> first time users are asked for a "Recommend" vs "Do not recommend"
> vote. Conversely, every time a user disables/removes a repository he
> is asked whether he votes "Do not recommend". These votes go to a
> centrallised server
> 
> I was advised on the Fedora list by Patrick Barnes to use the voting
> approach. I thought it made sense since it will keep evil people
> (repositories) away
> the same way wikipedia protects itself from evil people.
> Also there may be admins, like me, who shall ban a particular
> repository from the listings if it is found to be a malicious
> repository. If a repo is evil, there *will* be several "do not
> recommend" votes to it too which will attract attention.

 Why do you think votes (esp. those by users) and trust are related? I
guess it's not a _terrible_ hint, but it's surely not a good one either.
 We don't do Fedora package reviews by having everyone vote, so I don't
see why we'd want to do the same thing for (expandable) sets of
packages.

> 4) A server that receives votes and maintains a listing of
> repositories in sorted order:
> We could make modifications to <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb>
> so that it provides one-click-install links to all packages thus.
> Similar efforts are at:
> 
> [1] http://www.apturl.net/
> [2] http://packages.opensuse-community.org/
> [3] http://www.allmyapps.com/
> 
> I can set up a prototype server which
> accepts these votes and displays reposiories/packages accordingly.
> Once I have successfully built all the things I have mentioned, I dont
> mind buying hosting space to host it as a proof of concept.

 Given that Fedora, as a distro., don't ship rpmfusion-free-release (for
both legal and non-legal reasons) ... why do you think they will
maintain this list?

-- 
James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>
Fedora



From jspaleta at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 22:09:33 2009
From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:09:33 -0800
Subject: Automated System Recovery Tool
In-Reply-To: <288390.53237.qm@web45816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <288390.53237.qm@web45816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <604aa7910904011509y36396235icd6f1fe6198e9d1f@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/1 J C <powerswitch1972 at yahoo.com>:
> ? 1.) Implement daemon to record system changes to a recovery file. 1 week

Would it be appropriate to think of this effort as an extension of etckeeper?

http://joey.kitenet.net/code/etckeeper/

-jef



From debayanin at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 22:32:33 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 04:02:33 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/2 James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 03:09 +0530, Debayan Banerjee wrote:
>
> ?Indeed, there are two steps:
>
> 1) I trust XYZ, to get packages from.
> 2) I install package Foo from XYZ.

And why do you trust this repository? How do you know this is to be
trusted? Because it came added by default in the distro. Because it
was mentioned on a Fedora website.
Its the same thing with my approach. Users trust Fedora hosted sites
and they click on these 1 click install links only if its on a Fedora
site, and hence only add official repositories.
We need the trust-vote-ranking system only for 3rd party repositories.
>
>
> ?We already have a format for repository metadata, why do you want to
> use a different one?

What format we use is not an issue at all. I shall use whatever format
Fedora community is more ready to accept. It really does not matter (i
mean I can use the Fedora meta-data too).
>
>> , GPG key etc. One may
>> upload these xml files on the web and an user may click on these xml
>> files in a browser. Once downloaded the a parser parses the contents
>> of the file and automatically adds the requisite repositories and
>> downloads requisite packages for dependency preservation.
>
> ?It can't do this "automatically", it still needs the user to sign off
> on the two distinct steps above.

Yes, and the openSuSE implementation in zypper does sign off on the 2
things above. I was not clear enough.
The package manager asks for the admin password, then asks if she
trusts the repository and adds the GPG key to the keyring. Then it
proceeds to download packages. I meant this all the time.
>
>> http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~dperkins/projects/pk-oci/.
>
> ?This was rejected previously due to not being secure, what has changed?

On the security aspect you have the trust-vote system for 3rd party
repos, and official repos are not a problem at all.
There is the risk of users clicking these links on unknown malicious
websites. The user (assuming he is not very careful) has to be *told*
to trust only 2 things 1) Official repos 2) Trust vote ranking page
and to trust nothing else.
>
>> 2)Pluggable Policies:
>> The policy of what to allow to install will not be agreed
>>
> ?We already have this, it's called GPG key management.


>
>> 3) Add voting system to Package Manager:
>> The word trust has to mean something that the end user understands, as
>> opposed to GPG keys. One way of defining trust is by votes. It is my
>> proposal that we enable a voting system at the package manager end so
>> that every time a repository is added and a package installed for the
>> first time users are asked for a "Recommend" vs "Do not recommend"
>> vote. Conversely, every time a user disables/removes a repository he
>> is asked whether he votes "Do not recommend". These votes go to a
>> centrallised server
>>
>> I was advised on the Fedora list by Patrick Barnes to use the voting
>> approach. I thought it made sense since it will keep evil people
>> (repositories) away
>> the same way wikipedia protects itself from evil people.
>> Also there may be admins, like me, who shall ban a particular
>> repository from the listings if it is found to be a malicious
>> repository. If a repo is evil, there *will* be several "do not
>> recommend" votes to it too which will attract attention.
>
> ?Why do you think votes (esp. those by users) and trust are related? I
> guess it's not a _terrible_ hint, but it's surely not a good one either.
> ?We don't do Fedora package reviews by having everyone vote, so I don't
> see why we'd want to do the same thing for (expandable) sets of
> packages.

Well downloading and installing packages is something any user does
and hence they have a right to vote for what they liked, like voting
for water they consume. Voting for package reviews should be done by
people who understand packaging, not by users who use them. Like
voting for the filtration process at the water treatment plant.
>
> ?Given that Fedora, as a distro., don't ship rpmfusion-free-release (for
> both legal and non-legal reasons) ... why do you think they will
> maintain this list?

To help users remain safe. To make users aware. And Fedora is not
recommending any repository at all. Its the users recommending it to
other users (reminds me of p2p). Fedora just hosts that opinion,
nothing else.
>
-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr  1 22:42:28 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Wed,  1 Apr 2009 22:42:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090401 changes
Message-ID: <20090401224228.45E8A1F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Wed Apr  1 18:00:03 UTC 2009

New package frescobaldi
        Edit LilyPond sheet music with ease!
New package libdwarf
        Library to access the DWARF Debugging file format
New package openscap
        Set of open source libraries enabling integration of the SCAP line of standards
New package oxygen-icon-theme
        Oxygen icon theme
New package pyftpdlib
        Python FTP server library
New package pytc
        Tokyo Cabinet Python bindings
New package pytyrant
        A pure python client impelementation of Tokyo Tyrant
New package rpmorphan
        List packages that have no dependencies (like deborphan)
New package rumor
        Really Unintelligent Music transcriptOR
New package sahana
        Sahana is a free open source disaster management application
New package sqlite2
        Embeddable SQL engine in a C library
New package unzoo
        ZOO archive extractor
Removed package amarokFS
Removed package booty
Removed package perl-Wx-Perl-Dialog
Updated Packages:

CodeAnalyst-gui-2.8.38-10.fc11
------------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 - Suravee Suthikulpanit <suravee.suthikulpanit at amd.com>
- 2.8.38-10
- Rebuild with new libbfd-2.19.51.0.2-16.fc11.so


DeviceKit-power-008-0.1.20090401git.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 008-0.1.20090401git
- Update to todays git snapshot which works with the new permissive DBus.


NetworkManager-openconnect-0.7.0.99-2.fc11
------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 David Woodhouse <David.Woodhouse at intel.com> 1:0.7.0.99-2
- Update translations from SVN
- Accept 'lasthost' and 'autoconnect' keys in gconf


SolarModel-2.1-4.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 2.1-4
- fix desktop file (bz 492751)


adminutil-1.1.8-1.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> - 1.1.8-1
- this is the 1.1.8 release


ale-0.9.0.3-1.fc11
------------------

asm2-2.2.3-5.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 0:2.2.3-5
- Fix unowned directories (#473622)


authd-1.4.3-24.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Roman Rakus <rrakus at redhat.com> - 1.4.3-24
- Fixed using valist with log option on.
  Resolves: #446844
- user ident has home dir set to /
  Resolves: #458144


beldi-0.9.24-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sun Mar 01 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.24-1
- Upgrade to 0.9.24


bigboard-0.6.4-9.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 0.6.4-9
- rebuild to fix broken deps


bit-0.4.90-8.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 0.4.90-6
- Fix unowned directory (#473629) by fixing the dependency on bit-devel

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 0.4.90-7
- And readd the bit-gtkmm-devel -> bit-gtkmm dep, since the guidelines
  require it.

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rick L Vinyard Jr <rvinyard at cs.nmsu.edu> - 0.4.90-8
- Changed Sourceforge URL to downloads.sf.net from download.sf.net
- Added -p to doc installs


blender-2.48a-19.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> - 2.48a-19
- Change nonfree to freeworld

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 2.48a-17
- Create drop-in for non-free blender release

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 2.48a-18
- Fix typo


blobAndConquer-1.0-3.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at redhat.com> 1.0-3
- Fix blobAndConquer not starting on 64 bit machines


cacti-0.8.7d-3.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.7d-3
- Fix unowned cli directory (#473631)


childsplay-1.1-4.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> 1.1-4
- fix dejavu-fonts dependency


coda-6.9.4-2.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Neil Horman <nhorman at redhat.com> - 6.9.4-2
- Remove parser from coda-client, due to name conflict (bz 492953)


conexus-0.6.0-2.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 0.6.0-2
- Fix unowned top-level headers directory (#483305).


coreutils-7.2-1.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Ondrej Vasik <ovasik at redhat.com> 7.2-1
- New upstream bugfix release 7.2
- removed applied patches
- temporarily disable strverscmp failing gnulib test


cppad-20090303.0-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Mar 30 2009 Brad Bell <bradbell at seanet do com> 20080303-2
- Change tabs to spaces in spec file to avoid an rpmlint warning.
- The base package in previous release had no files, hence did not exist.
- Use Provides: in cppad-devel to indicate that it provides cppad.


crda-1.0.1_2009.03.09-9.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com> 1.0.1_2009.03.09-9
- Add Requires line for iw package (#492762)
- Update setregdomain script to correctly check if COUNTRY is set


ctrlproxy-3.0.8-3.fc11
----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Bernie Innocenti <bernie at codewiz.org> 3.0.8-3
- Fix rhbz#483334: Unowned directories


cups-pk-helper-0.0.4-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Marek Kasik <mkasik at redhat.com> - 0.0.4-1
- Update to 0.0.4


cyrus-imapd-2.3.13-5.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 2.3.13-5
- fix unowned directory (#483336).


desktop-data-model-1.2.5-10.fc11
--------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.2.5-10
- Rebuild for yet another libempathy

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1.2.5-9
- rebuild to fix broken deps


dhcp-4.1.0-13.fc11
------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 12:4.1.0-13
- dhclient obsoletes libdhcp4client (#493213)
- dhcp-devel obsolets libdhcp4client-devel (#493213)


dhcpv6-1.1.0-3.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 1.1.0-3
- dhcpv6-client obsoletes libdhcp6client, libdhcp6client-devel (#493214)


dnssec-tools-1.5-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 1.5-2
- Fix unowned directories (#483339).


eboard-1.1.1-4.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Mar 21 2009 Marek Mahut <mmahut at fedoraproject.org> - 1.1.1-4
- RHBZ#485307 -  wrong category in desktop file


eject-2.1.5-14.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Zdenek Prikryl <zprikryl at redhat.com> 2.1.5-14
- Fixed space replacing in mount points (#492524)


empathy-2.26.0.1-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Mar 30 2009 Peter Gordon <peter at thecodergeek.com> - 2.26.0.1-1
- Update to new upstream release (2.26.0.1): updated translations, a couple of
  crasher bugs, and a fix for usage of the UNIX socket address.


esound-0.2.41-2.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1:0.2.41-2
- Remove /etc/esd.conf (#491481)


ettercap-0.7.3-32.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 0.7.3-32
- Patch for selinux/fctnl issue, BZ 491612.


fbreader-0.10.7-1.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Michel Salim <salimma at fedoraproject.org> - 0.10.7-1
- Update to 0.10.7


fedora-ds-admin-console-1.1.3-1.fc11
------------------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> 1.1.3-1
- this is the 1.1.3 release


fedora-ds-console-1.2.0-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> 1.2.0-1
- this is the 1.2.0 release


fedora-idm-console-1.1.3-1.fc11
-------------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> 1.1.3-1
- the 1.1.3 release


fillets-ng-data-0.8.1-3
-----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 0.8.1-3
- fix broken font requires


gadget-0.0.3-3.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.0.3-3
- exclude ppc64 as ejabberd is not build there #250253


gcin-1.4.4-5.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 1.4.4-5
- fix unowned directory (#473616)


geoclue-0.11.1.1-0.2.20090310git3a31d26.fc11
--------------------------------------------
* Sun Mar 29 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> 0.11.1.1-0.2
- Rebuild for new gpsd


gigolo-0.3.0-1.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Kevin Fenzi <kevin at tummy.com> - 0.3.0-1
- Update to 0.3.0


glibc-2.9.90-12
---------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-12
- update from trunk
- configure with --enable-experimental-malloc


gnome-commander-1.2.8-0.3.svn2502_trunk.fc11
--------------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 1.2.8-0.3.svn2502_trunk
- rev 2502


gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.1.3-3
- Add patch to fix issue where applications wasn't being indexed


gpsd-2.39-3.fc11
----------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 2.39-3
- some of the gpsd client bits went into gpsdclient.h, but that file wasn't getting installed
  specifically, viking needs that header to build.


grib_api-1.7.0-2.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 1.7.0-2
- Fix unowned directory.
- Fix subpackage Group tags.
- Use %_includedir in files section.


gstreamer-plugins-flumpegdemux-0.10.15-6.fc11
---------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 0.10.15-6
- Update code from gst-plugins-bad


gtk-recordmydesktop-0.3.8-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.3.8-1
- New upstream release


halberd-0.2.3-1.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.2.3-1
- New upstream release


hamlib-1.2.8-3.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 1.2.8-3
- Add hackish fix for python binding issue


httrack-3.43.2-3.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 3.43.2-3
- Updated 'Requires: openssl = 0.9.8k'


hunspell-sk-0.20090330-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Caolan McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 1:0.20090330-1
- latest version


idm-console-framework-1.1.3-1.fc11
----------------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> 1.1.3-1
- this is the 1.1.3 release
- use the epoch with the java-devel version


jabberd-2.2.7.1-2.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Bernie Innocenti <bernie at codewiz.org> - 2.2.7.1-2
- fix rhbz#349714: jabberd does not close its stdin/stdout/stderr


jd-2.4.0-0.1.svn2758_trunk.fc11
-------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
- Update to latest trunk


jpackage-utils-1.7.5-2.7.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Deepak Bhole <dbhole at redhat.com> - 0:1.7.5-2.7
- rhbz# 225950. Shortened description, moved it to a README


kdebase-runtime-4.2.2-3.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-2
- drop kdebase-runtime-4.2.1-pulseaudio-cmake.patch

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-3
- -flags subpkg
- koji/noarch hacks dropped

* Mon Mar 30 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2

* Fri Mar 27 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.1-3
- flags subpkg (not enabled)
- optimize scriptlets

* Tue Mar 03 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.1-2
- fix PulseAudio cmake detection


kdelibs-4.2.2-1.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdepimlibs-4.2.2-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kernel-2.6.29.1-37.rc1.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com>
- drm-radeon-reorder-bm.patch: attempt PM fix for PCI/AGP cards

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com>
- drm-nouveau.patch: support version 3.0 pll limits table
  may help with rh#492575

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Matthew Garrett <mjg at redhat.com>
- update the sony laptop code

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
- add fiemap.h to kernel-headers
- build ext4 (and jbd2 and crc16) into the kernel

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- Linux 2.6.29.1-rc1
- Dropped patches, merged upstream:
    linux-2.6-net-fix-gro-bug.patch
    linux-2.6-net-xfrm-fix-spin-unlock.patch
    linux-2.6.29-pat-change-is_linear_pfn_mapping-to-not-use-vm_pgoff.patch
    linux-2.6.29-pat-pci-change-prot-for-inherit.patch

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Matthew Garrett <mjg at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-35.rc1
- linux-2.6.29-alsa-update-quirks.patch: Backport some HDA quirk support


knemo-0.5.2-1.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Alexey Kurov <nucleo at fedoraproject.org> - 0.5.2-1
- Update to version 0.5.2
- Fixed spec License and URL fields


kpackagekit-0.4.0-5.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 0.4.0-5
- another respun tarball to fix using those translations (#493061)


ksplice-0.9.7-3.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 0.9.7-3
- Change from ExcludeArch to ExclusiveArch


less-424-4.fc11
---------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Zdenek Prikryl <zprikryl at redhat.com> - 424-4
- Added GraphicsMagick support (#492695)


libcanberra-0.11-9.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.11-9
- Another preview for 0.12


libgphoto2-2.4.4-4.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> 2.4.4-4
- increase timeouts for Canon cameras (#476355), thanks to
  Andrzej Nowak and Russell Harrison


libservicelog-1.0.1-2.fc11
--------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Roman Rakus <rrakus at redhat.com> - 1.0.1-2
- Added missing requires sqlite-devel in devel subpackage


libsyncml-0.4.6-1.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Felix Kaechele <felix at fetzig dot org> - 1:0.4.6-1
- downgraded to 0.4.6


logwatch-7.3.6-42.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Ivana Varekova <varekova at redhat.com> 7.3.6-42
- fix exim script (#492269)


mailman-2.1.12-3.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Daniel Novotny <dnovotny at redhat.com> 3:2.1.12-3
- fix bz#447784 (List-Archive URL for private archives broken)


memtest86+-2.11-5.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Paulo Roma <roma at lcg.ufrj.br> - 2.11-5
- Changed postun for preun.
- Calling memtest-setup in case of updating grub.conf


menu-cache-0.2.3-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Christoph Wickert <fedora christoph-wickert de> - 0.2.3-1
- Update to 0.2.3


mesa-7.5-0.6.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 7.5-0.6
- Build fbo files for r100

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 7.5-0.5
- radeon-rewrite.patch: misc radeon fixes with buffer readbacks


mingw32-qt-4.5.0-4.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Kalev Lember <kalev at smartlink.ee> - 4.5.0-4
- Enable QtOpenGL, QtScript, QtScriptTools, and QtXmlPatterns.
- Sort files section for readability.


mutt-1.5.19-4.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Miroslav Lichvar <mlichvar at redhat.com> 5:1.5.19-4
- use PATH_MAX for buffers passed to realpath (#492861)
- unconditionally inode-sort Maildir and MH folders
- restore connection polling callback when closing SASL connection


nfs-utils-lib-1.1.4-4.fc11
--------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 1.1.4-4
- Fix unowned header directories (#483464).


nikto-2.03-1.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 2.03-1
- New upstream release


nss-3.12.2.99.3-3.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Kai Engert <kaie at redhat.com> - 3.12.2.99.3-1
- Update to NSS_3_12_3_BETA4

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Kai Engert <kaie at redhat.com> - 3.12.2.99.3-2
- build nspr-less freebl library

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Kai Engert <kaie at redhat.com> - 3.12.2.99.3-3
- add upstream patch to fix bug 483855


nufw-2.2.21-3.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 2.2.21-3
- Fix unowned directories (#483383).


openchange-0.8.2-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 0.8.2-1
- Update to 0.8.2
- Add a server subpackage.
- Add BuildRequires: sqlite-devel (for server)


openconnect-1.10-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 David Woodhouse <David.Woodhouse at intel.com> - 1.10-1
- Update to 1.10.


pdftk-1.41-14.fc11
------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 1.41-14
- Patch stdin issue (#492968)


pdsh-2.17-3.fc11
----------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 2.17-3
- fix unowned directories (#473578)
  and let all module subpackages require the main package


perl-Net-Pcap-0.16-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.16-1
- New upstream release


perl-Padre-0.32-1.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Marcela Ma??l????ov?? <mmaslano at redhat.com> 0.32-1
- 492937 perl-Wx-Perl-Dialog became part of Padre
- update to the latest version


planner-0.14.3-11.fc11
----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 0.14.3-11
- Resolves: rhbz#226301 fix some rpmlint warnings


policycoreutils-2.0.62-7.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 2.0.62-7
- Cleanup creation of permissive domains
- Update po files


pulseaudio-0.9.15-8.test7.fc11
------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.9.15-4.test6
- New test release

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.9.15-5.test6
- Fix tarball name

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.9.15-6.test6
- Fix mistag

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.9.15-7.test7
- New test release

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.9.15-8.test7
- Only load bt modules when installed


python-imdb-4.0-5.fc11
----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 4.0-2
- New upstream release

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 4.0-4
- Add Provides: upstream name
- Add missing python-setuptools buildrequires

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 4.0-5
- Fix typo in Provides:


python-ldap-2.3.6-1.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 0:2.3.6-1
- Update to 2.3.6


python-ogg-1.3-12
-----------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 1.3-12
- Fix unowned headers directory (#483470).


pytrainer-1.6.0.7-1.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Douglas E. Warner <silfreed at silfreed.net> 1.6.0.7-1
- updating to 1.6.0.7
- includes patch to use sqlite3
- Removing pytrainer gui minimal window size
- Ordered shutdown of logging stuff
- HR and elevation graphs included when exporting to wordpress
- Removal of maps directory due to license issue:
  https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=1237752714.4330.15.camel%40thinker.domain.lan
- Removal of opensuse_mozpytrainer.sh launch script as it is included in (renamed)
  pytrainer.sh. Deleted README.txt file to avoid confusion
- Updated INSTALL file with current package versions
- Fixed Google Maps integration
- Updated garmin-hr config file with correct usb port value
- Fixed bug where track record was supposed to be updated in database. Type cast
  was missing
- Bug #2100647 - Quick entry doesn't work if no gpx file - Fixed
- FR #2126411 - Package python-sqlite2 not needed anymore:
  http://www.python.org/doc/2.5.2/lib/module-sqlite3.html


qpidc-0.5.752600-5.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 0.5.752600-5
- Fix unowned examples directory in -devel pkg.


qt-recordmydesktop-0.3.8-1.fc11
-------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.3.8-1
- New upstream release


recordmydesktop-0.3.8.1-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.3.8.1-1
- New upstream release


reiserfs-utils-3.6.21-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Itamar Reis Peixoto <itamar at ispbrasil.com.br> - 2:3.6.21-1
- 3.6.21


rkward-0.5.0c-1.fc11
--------------------

roundup-1.4.6-5.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 1.4.6-5
- fix unowned directory (#473661)


rubygem-hoe-1.12.1-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Darryl Pierce <dpierce at redhat.com> - 1.12.1-1
- Release 1.12.1 of Hoe.


scribus-1.3.5-0.11.20090329svn13359.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Sun Mar 29 2009 Dan Hor??k <dan[AT]danny.cz> - 1.3.5-0.11.20090329svn13359
- update to revision 13359
- add aspell-devel and boost-devel as BR
- update release tag to conform to the pre-release versioning guideline

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.3.5-0.10.12516svn
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


sg3_utils-1.26-4.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Dan Hor??k <dan at danny.cz> - 1.26-4
- add dependency between the libs subpackage and the main package (#492921)


subtitlecomposer-0.5.2-3.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Steven M. Parrish <tuxbrewr at fedoraproject.org> 0.5.2-2
- Corrected Desktop categories and added missing scriplets

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Steven M. Parrish <tuxbrewr at fedoraproject.org> 0.5.2-3
- Modified desktop categories


subversion-1.6.0-3
------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Joe Orton <jorton at redhat.com> 1.6.0-1
- update to 1.6.0

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Joe Orton <jorton at redhat.com> 1.6.0-3
- BR sqlite-devel


sugar-0.84.1-4.20090401git4232758da5.fc11
-----------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.1-4.20090401git4232758da5
- git snapshot


sugar-browse-106-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 106-1
- Fix Autocompletion and File upload #670
- Make sugarlabs.org the default homepage


sugar-chat-65-1.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 65-1
- Support new activity.info exec parameter
- 'share or invite' hint not when resuming shared instance #402


sugar-toolkit-0.84.1-2.20090401git0a65259dc5.fc11
-------------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.1-2.20090401git0a65259dc5
- git snapshot


tcl-8.5.6-6.fc11
----------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Marcela Ma??l????ov?? <mmaslano at redhat.com> - 1:8.5.6-6
- add missing part of patch

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Marcela Ma??l????ov?? <mmaslano at redhat.com> - 1:8.5.6-5
- 492541 newer http prevents connection (reproduced on amsn)


totem-pl-parser-2.26.1-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1


trac-0.11.3-4.fc11
------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 0.11.3-4
- Fix unowned directory (#473989)


udev-139-4.fc11
---------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Harald Hoyer <harald at redhat.com> 139-3
- renamed modprobe /etc/modprobe.d/floppy-pnp to
  /etc/modprobe.d/floppy-pnp.conf (bug #492732 #488768)
- Resolves: rhbz#492732

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Harald Hoyer <harald at redhat.com> 139-4
- double the IMPORT buffer (bug #488554)
- Resolves: rhbz#488554


unalz-0.65-1.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget [DOT] fedora [AT] gmail [DOT] com> 0.65-1
- Update to 0.65


vamp-plugin-sdk-2.0-5.fc11
--------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 2.0-5
- Add another sed libdir fix for PluginLoader.cpp (#469777)
  plus a check section to scan for libdir issues


viking-0.9.8-2.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 0.9.8-2
- use new gpsd header (gpsdclient.h)

* Sat Mar 28 2009 Fabian Affolter <fabian at bernewireless.net> - 0.9.8-1
- Update to new upstream version, 0.9.8


xchat-gnome-0.26.0-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 0.26.0-1
- Update to 0.26.0.


xdotool-20090126-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 20090126-1
- New upstream release


xfce4-sensors-plugin-0.10.99.6-4.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.10.99.6-4
- Own %{_libdir}/xfce4/modules/ to fix unowned directory (#474587)


xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.1-2.fc11
------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.1-1
- rebase to upstream + fix FUS on DRI2 + video on r100/r200 hopefully

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.1-2
- attempt to fix r100/r200 xv better


Summary:
Added Packages: 12
Removed Packages: 3
Modified Packages: 118
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	PyKDE4-akonadi-4.2.1-8.fc11.i586 requires kdepimlibs-akonadi(x86-32) = 0:4.2.1
	libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.36-2.fc11.i586 requires libopensync.so.1
	libopensync-plugin-syncml-0.35-4.fc10.i386 requires libopensync.so.1
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.i586 requires libopensync.so.1
	qtgpsc-0.2.3-3.fc11.i586 requires libgps.so.17
	sqlite2-tcl-2.8.17-1.fc6.i386 requires libtcl8.4.so



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	PyKDE4-akonadi-4.2.1-8.fc11.i586 requires kdepimlibs-akonadi(x86-32) = 0:4.2.1
	PyKDE4-akonadi-4.2.1-8.fc11.x86_64 requires kdepimlibs-akonadi(x86-64) = 0:4.2.1
	libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.36-2.fc11.x86_64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	libopensync-plugin-syncml-0.35-4.fc10.x86_64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.x86_64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	qtgpsc-0.2.3-3.fc11.x86_64 requires libgps.so.17()(64bit)
	sqlite2-tcl-2.8.17-1.fc6.x86_64 requires libtcl8.4.so()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	PyKDE4-akonadi-4.2.1-8.fc11.ppc requires kdepimlibs-akonadi(ppc-32) = 0:4.2.1
	PyKDE4-akonadi-4.2.1-8.fc11.ppc64 requires kdepimlibs-akonadi(ppc-64) = 0:4.2.1
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.36-2.fc11.ppc requires libopensync.so.1
	libopensync-plugin-syncml-0.35-4.fc10.ppc requires libopensync.so.1
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc requires libopensync.so.1
	qtgpsc-0.2.3-3.fc11.ppc requires libgps.so.17
	sqlite2-tcl-2.8.17-1.fc6.ppc requires libtcl8.4.so



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	PyKDE4-akonadi-4.2.1-8.fc11.ppc64 requires kdepimlibs-akonadi(ppc-64) = 0:4.2.1
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.36-2.fc11.ppc64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	libopensync-plugin-syncml-0.35-4.fc10.ppc64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	qtgpsc-0.2.3-3.fc11.ppc64 requires libgps.so.17()(64bit)
	sqlite2-tcl-2.8.17-1.fc6.ppc64 requires libtcl8.4.so()(64bit)





From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr  1 22:54:36 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:54:36 -0500
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <49D1CBF7.2070400@falconpl.org>
References: <49CD379D.8040104@verizon.net> <1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>
	<49D057C7.40005@fedoraproject.org> <1238464539.3941.9.camel@moose>
	<20090331065952.GA12945@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49D1CBF7.2070400@falconpl.org>
Message-ID: <1238626476.17609.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 09:53 +0200, Giancarlo Niccolai wrote:
> Good computing => "least surprise effect".
> People coming from windows => ctrl+alt+<fumble>bs  "OH CRAP --- I am so 
> XXXX I forgot to save my work files in 15 Word (ops, Openoffice) windows 
> in the past 3 days!!!!"

Openoffice has autosave/crash recovery, so this would not happen.

> People knowing their systems and just upgrading => x blocked =>  
> ctrl+alt+bs ... ctrl+alt+bs... "what the..." ... CTRL+ALT+BS. "OH SHIT 
> -- I got to hard reboot loosing all the work on console sessions and 
> possibly fucking up that crap of XXXX filesystem the installer forced me 
> to use!!!!"

Ctrl-alt-bs doesn't reboot the kernel so your filesystem loss scenario
is at odds with reality.
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From cchance at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 01:09:52 2009
From: cchance at redhat.com (Caius "kaio" Chance)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:09:52 +1000
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>	<f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49D41060.50907@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> Adam Miller wrote:
>> I'm actually having a similar issue when trying to test in VirtualBox.
>> I see the boot up process (I forget the name of the new replacement
>> thing) load the progress bar and then just a blank screen. I plan to
>> boot to real hardware soon as soon as I have some free time and see if
>> i can get to a tty to check logs and such. Otherwise I will be trying
>> to compose a more updated image in a few days and try again.
>>
>> -Adam

I got same issue on my real hardware with F11 Beta DVD. :(

You are not alone. We are the world...

kaio

- --
Caius Chance, Soft Eng, I18N, Red Hat APAC, cchance AT redhat DOT com
JP (Qual), RHCE, MCSE, CCNA, JLPT4, http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer
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From powerswitch1972 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  2 01:22:14 2009
From: powerswitch1972 at yahoo.com (J C)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 18:22:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Automated System Recovery Tool
In-Reply-To: <1238622966.31472.61.camel@code.and.org>
References: <288390.53237.qm@web45816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1238622966.31472.61.camel@code.and.org>
Message-ID: <805313.32856.qm@web45802.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>






________________________________
From: James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 5:56:06 PM
Subject: Re: Automated System Recovery Tool

   On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 11:52 -0700, J C wrote:
   >> 
   >> Title:  Automated System Recovery Tool  
   >> Student:  Jeff Chandler  
   >> Abstract:  
   >> An automated system
   >> recovery tool is needed for average users to feel secure using Fedora
   >> as their primary Desktop OS. Fedora and other Gnu/Linux distros can be
   >> rendered useless to the non-technical user by a failed binary driver
   >> install (Video cards, wireless ethernet, etc.) or malicious programs.
   > > For these users, there is no easy fix available.

>How are you going to run your daemon (let alone the UI to command it)
>if arbitrary parts of the system are broken?


The daemon should already be installed and running as part of the initial installation, at the users discretion, of course.  It will create a series of backup files at specified intervals, daily, weekly, or monthly.  The GUI recovery tool will have three options: Run  from the actual installation, a recovery partition ( essentially a bare bones copy of the installation cd) or the installation cd itself.  It will have to use the backup file from the local hard drive, unless the user had the foresight to save a backup to another media.  I suppose a reminder could be a part of the system, to copy backups to some other system or media. 


    >>  I propose a daemon
    >> that tracks changes in the filesystem and can restore installed
    >> programs and configuration to a previous point in time when the system
    >> was working. Suspect programs would be cordoned off into a secure
    >> area.

>So do you only protect packages, and not all files on disk?
>If more than packages how do you tell which ones (reverting a config.
>file might require reverting a package, and it's much more likely the
>other way around).
>If only package data, then you should really be monitoring/using the
>"yum history" database (not written, yet, but planned for this year).

The user will select to revert packages and config data only or all data.  In the former case, packages and config files will be restored to tjhe state they existed at a previous time ( selected by the user  among the available backups) so versions and configuration data should be in sync.  If the latter option is chosen, the same action occurs, but any user data that has changed (based on file access times) since the backup, will be moved to a "vault" where it can be recovered by the user with assistance from the recovery tool.
 


  [...]
  >>    A daemon that would track changes in the filesystem, installed
  >> packages and versions, and configuration information.  In the event of
  >> a system failure or corruption (by a binary driver, user error,...)the
  >> Automated System Recovery Tool could be used to restore the system to
  >> a
  >> previous time.  The daemon would also keep a copy of non-standard (not
  >> available from the standard repos) packages for reinstall. The tool
  >> could also be used as a System Backup utility to store all system and
  >> user data in a compressed file in case of a total system or hardware
  >> failure.

>A backup utility like this would be a huge undertaking, on it's own, I
>think (even if you ignored the packaging aspect).

  [...]
  >> * A rough timeline for your progress
  >>   1.) Implement daemon to record system changes to a recovery file. 1
  >> week
  >>   2.) Implement Graphical Interface for user interaction. 1 week
  >>   3.) Implement System Recovery backend 2 weeks
  >>   4.) Test and Debug. 2 weeks
  >> * Any other details you feel we should consider

>IMO the above is "optimistic".

I realize the timeline seems optimistic, for some reason I was thinking the actual coding period was only 6 weeks, but now I see it is actually 12 weeks, plus an additional 4 weeks between the announcement of acceptance and begin of coding. I've update my proposal to reflect the actual time period.



-- 
Thank You for your comments,
Jeff Chandler
powerswitch1972 at yahoo.com


      
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  2 01:54:10 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 03:54:10 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238541888.3179.137.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gr15s2$8al$1@ger.gmane.org>

Christoph Wickert wrote:
> I was afraid of that, but you are correct. After talking to Kevin I
> downgraded, but the package still does not build because it does not
> find the new libsoup in rawhide, see
> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1268891

Grrr, old software requires old libraries, as usual...

Try building against libsoup22-devel.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  2 02:44:37 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 04:44:37 +0200
Subject: Wiki Freeze Tomorrow
References: <6268CAE1187543EF803DFB198B8AEBE3@Aidan>
Message-ID: <gr18ql$ege$1@ger.gmane.org>

John J. McDonough wrote:
> Following the wiki freeze we still can make changes in the xml, so if
> something comes up that should change the release notes, email myself or
> Ryan Lerch and we will make the changes.

Has the conversion already happened? If it did, can this change (additions
only) please be pulled in?
https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Documentation_Desktop_Beat&diff=94418&oldid=94383

        Kevin Kofler



From james at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr  2 04:14:32 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 00:14:32 -0400
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 04:02 +0530, Debayan Banerjee wrote:
> 2009/4/2 James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>:
> > On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 03:09 +0530, Debayan Banerjee wrote:
> >
> >  Indeed, there are two steps:
> >
> > 1) I trust XYZ, to get packages from.
> > 2) I install package Foo from XYZ.
> 
> And why do you trust this repository? How do you know this is to be
> trusted?

 Many different reasons, I guess, I'm not sure I could easily enumerate
them all.

>  Because it came added by default in the distro. Because it
> was mentioned on a Fedora website.

 But neither of these are true. And they are that way for a reason, if
it was a good idea to have Fedora trust one or more third part
repositories for it's users ... Fedora would have already done it by
installing the *-release packages for those repos.

> Its the same thing with my approach. Users trust Fedora hosted sites
> and they click on these 1 click install links only if its on a Fedora
> site, and hence only add official repositories.
> We need the trust-vote-ranking system only for 3rd party repositories.

 So you want to create a category of "official third party
repositories", ok fine ... go argue with FESCO for that, but I don't see
a current technical limitation here (well none that you're saying you'll
fix, anyway).

> >> http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~dperkins/projects/pk-oci/.
> >
> >  This was rejected previously due to not being secure, what has changed?
> 
> On the security aspect you have the trust-vote system for 3rd party
> repos

 Which implies that Fedora host trusted/official third party repos. ...
and that a voting system for trust is a workable idea.

> >  Why do you think votes (esp. those by users) and trust are related? I
> > guess it's not a _terrible_ hint, but it's surely not a good one either.
> >  We don't do Fedora package reviews by having everyone vote, so I don't
> > see why we'd want to do the same thing for (expandable) sets of
> > packages.
> 
> Well downloading and installing packages is something any user does
> and hence they have a right to vote for what they liked, like voting
> for water they consume. Voting for package reviews should be done by
> people who understand packaging, not by users who use them. Like
> voting for the filtration process at the water treatment plant.

 I think you are confused, voting for third party repos. is identical to
voting for multiple package reviews (even worse, because packages can
then be added after up votes).

 If what you prose was possible and implemented then given a problem of
"I want to make package X available to Fedora users" you could then do
either:

1. Try to add the package to Fedora -- unlucky now I have to pass a
review.

2. Put the package in my own repo. and propose to add the repo. to
Fedora -- lucky, now I get random users to up vote me (or just do it
myself posing as multiple users).

> >  Given that Fedora, as a distro., don't ship rpmfusion-free-release (for
> > both legal and non-legal reasons) ... why do you think they will
> > maintain this list?
> 
> To help users remain safe.

 Except if we did what you propose users would be much less safe.

>  To make users aware. And Fedora is not
> recommending any repository at all. Its the users recommending it to
> other users (reminds me of p2p). Fedora just hosts that opinion,
> nothing else.

 This is like arguing that Fedora could/should host an open bittorrent
tracker and allow users to put anything in it, but sure go ask FESCO I'm
sure they could do with a laugh.

-- 
James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>
Fedora



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  2 04:43:09 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 06:43:09 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238541888.3179.137.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gr15s2$8al$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <gr1fot$p5n$4@ger.gmane.org>

I wrote:
> Try building against libsoup22-devel.

Actually, I did that, plus other trivial fixes to get it to build. Whether
it actually works is something somebody else will have to decide though.

I also reenabled syncml support in osmo (which had been disabled by Alex
Lancaster because it didn't build with 0.5.0).

        Kevin Kofler



From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Thu Apr  2 05:15:36 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:15:36 -0400
Subject: status of Presto in rawhide
Message-ID: <49D449F8.3070903@bwh.harvard.edu>

According to

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePresto

"code is all ready to go - plan is to have a test for f11alpha->f11beta 
upgrades"

but the rawhide mirrors are still not Presto-enabled.  Presumably this 
is supposed to happen well before F11's release.  Any idea when?
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From cdahlin at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 05:16:51 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:16:51 -0400
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <1238514493.5005.1419.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49CD379D.8040104@verizon.net>
	<1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>	<gqr9qk$mk3$1@ger.gmane.org>	<faa16b610903301337i7cd94e4dr61c995c084231a37@mail.gmail.com>	<gqraro$rqj$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1238508985.5005.1378.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<faa16b610903310751n8aa8be0ib8ee3c1831aae932@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238514493.5005.1419.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D44A43.9000507@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 10:51 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
>> 2009/3/31 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com>:
>>> So let's list the cases that zap would actually recover from:
>>>
>>> 1: stuck grabs
>>> 2: focus reverts to None and your window manager is dead
>>> 3: X driver that's decided to stop rendering (or stop rendering
>>> correctly)
>> Let me add:
>>
>> 4: Randr configuration is either broken or out of date, and the system
>> didn't detect it correctly
>>
>> More than a few times now I've forgotten I had set up an external
>> monitor, suspended, and unsuspended later and faced with a black
>> screen thought my machine had locked.  Of course this is a system bug,
>> but then all of these things are.
> 
> Yeah, this is hard.
> 
> Part of the problem here is that the X server doesn't really have a good
> way of knowing when a suspend happens.  For UMS drivers, we vt-switch
> and hope that works, but that means you can't distinguish normal vt
> switch from suspend.  Maybe you always want to do an output rescan at vt
> enter?  Maybe not.  Maybe just rescan and send config change events to
> the desktop, but not actively change the topology.
> 
> For KMS drivers, we suspend in place now, which is pretty awesome since
> it eliminates flicker on the way down and on the way back up.  So the
> kernel driver ought to be smart enough to send configuration changes
> back through a uevent.  I don't think we're doing anything with those
> events yet though.
> 

If X simply knew it was in an inconsistent state, could it initiate
recovery from there? It'd be nice if we could have a simple
/usr/bin/xreconfig so we could add this to the "easy fix from vt" cases.

- --CJD
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  2 05:32:51 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 07:32:51 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> For the others Alex noted: libopensync-plugin-kdepim should be dropped
> entirely, there is no usable plugin we can yet package (it will return
> in future releases once opensync 0.3/0.4 is usable).

I can try backporting the libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.36-kde4.patch, it
doesn't look like it's that hard to do those changes on 0.22 (except the
configury part because 0.22 uses the autotools, but I can deal with that
too).

That said, I have no idea:
* whether that patch works at all,
* whether it will still work after backporting nor
* how well it will work with kdepim 4.2 and Akonadi.

But I should definitely be able to get it to build.

        Kevin Kofler



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 05:40:02 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 22:40:02 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1238650802.4338.196.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 07:32 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Adam Williamson wrote:
> > For the others Alex noted: libopensync-plugin-kdepim should be dropped
> > entirely, there is no usable plugin we can yet package (it will return
> > in future releases once opensync 0.3/0.4 is usable).
> 
> I can try backporting the libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.36-kde4.patch, it
> doesn't look like it's that hard to do those changes on 0.22 (except the
> configury part because 0.22 uses the autotools, but I can deal with that
> too).
> 
> That said, I have no idea:
> * whether that patch works at all,
> * whether it will still work after backporting nor
> * how well it will work with kdepim 4.2 and Akonadi.
> 
> But I should definitely be able to get it to build.

If you can get it to build, I can test it (I will sacrifice my lovely
pure system at the altar of the KDE gods for the purpose ;>). It would
definitely be nice to have a working 0.22 KDE 4 plugin, for sure.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 05:40:37 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 22:40:37 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <gr1fot$p5n$4@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238541888.3179.137.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gr15s2$8al$1@ger.gmane.org>  <gr1fot$p5n$4@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1238650837.4338.197.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 06:43 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> I wrote:
> > Try building against libsoup22-devel.
> 
> Actually, I did that, plus other trivial fixes to get it to build. Whether
> it actually works is something somebody else will have to decide though.

I can only test this to a limited extent because my test Nokia device
has never worked with the syncml plugin. I can at least check if it
works as far as it used to, though.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 06:38:16 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 08:38:16 +0200
Subject: rpms/transifex/F-9 .cvsignore, 1.3, 1.4 sources, 1.6, 1.7
 transifex.spec, 1.6, 1.7
In-Reply-To: <1238615987.18788.123.camel@ignacio.lan>
References: <20090401131339.809F070144@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<20090401155744.14acc2b3@faldor.intranet>
	<1238615987.18788.123.camel@ignacio.lan>
Message-ID: <20090402083816.1a15ac9d@faldor.intranet>

On Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:59:46 -0400, Ignacio wrote:

> > > Author: ivazquez
> > > 
> > > Update of /cvs/pkgs/rpms/transifex/F-9
> > 
> > > Log Message:
> > > - Upstream update
> > >   * Fixed ordering of components untranslated by a Release X Lang
> > >   * Fixed missing parameter for the set_stats_for_lang method call
> > >   * Fixed msgfmt to work large files
> > > - Fixed small bug in %%post
> > > - Fixed PROJECT_PATH in the settings
> > 
> > > -Requires:   intltool >= 0.40.5
> > > +Requires:   intltool >= 0.37.1
> > 
> > What is the full story here which would explain why the minimum version
> > was too high for F-9? And what is really the lowest support version?
> > FWIW, the spec included in the tarball still requires >= 0.40.5
> 
> It was a guess based on the fact that the EL5 intltool is too old, and
> it worked with the F10 intltool. I have verified that it works with the
> F9 intltool and have adjusted the spec file in Fedora cvs accordingly.

Thanks for explaining it. So:

  # 0.35 is too old
  # 0.37.1 from up-to-date Fedora 9 has been tested with
  Requires: intltool >= 0.37.1

Perhaps stock F9 would have worked too (0.36.3).

"BuildRequires: intltool >= 0.37.1" would have protected against
the broken dependency.



From pmatilai at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 07:26:06 2009
From: pmatilai at redhat.com (Panu Matilainen)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:26:06 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Borked system after last nights rawhide update
In-Reply-To: <20090401083658.M85681@all-the-johnsons.co.uk>
References: <20090401083658.M85681@all-the-johnsons.co.uk>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904021022540.24183@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Paul F. Johnson wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I did a big update last night from rawhide and other than the Noveau problem
> with GDM which has been updated, I didn't notice any problems. Then my system
> crashed...
>
> When I rebooted inittab was missing and udev was unable to find anything (I
> had loads of udev failures for finding anything within /dev).
>
> As yet, I'm unable to get that machine to reboot and return to a desktop (it
> will get through to being able to log in, but as it can't find any of the
> groups or users, it can't be logged in).
>
> I can boot from a RIPLinux disc and mount the drive, so everything is still
> there (which is good).
>
> Any ideas on how to fix this problem? I've not seen any other reports on here
> so far.

Do you have a yum.log of this system available? In bug 492947, according 
to yum.log "something" has *erased* half the system (including setup etc) 
in what appears to be a separate transaction, which will certainly end up 
in missing /etc/passwd and such.

 	- Panu -



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  2 07:39:49 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 09:39:49 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238650802.4338.196.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <gr1q45$ikd$1@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> If you can get it to build, I can test it (I will sacrifice my lovely
> pure system at the altar of the KDE gods for the purpose ;>). It would
> definitely be nice to have a working 0.22 KDE 4 plugin, for sure.

Here's the result of my insanity. ;-)
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=96291

Notes synchronization is expected not to work (that already was the case in
the 0.36 stuff we had before; it'd have to be ported from the KNotes DCOP
interface to D-Bus or something else). Calendar appointments and address
book items are expected to work. Anything else is just not there.

        Kevin Kofler



From alexl at users.sourceforge.net  Thu Apr  2 08:20:03 2009
From: alexl at users.sourceforge.net (Alex Lancaster)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:20:03 -0700
Subject: fc10 files in Fedora beta DVD
In-Reply-To: <49D3AFE3.7040100@redhat.com> (Tom Callaway's message of "Wed\,
	01 Apr 2009 14\:18\:11 -0400")
References: <d3ceea380904011114tfbdc79arc6ee5cbb9a725557@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D3AFE3.7040100@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <rn1vsbqxfw.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>

>>>>> "TC" == Tom \"spot\" Callaway  writes:

TC> On 04/01/2009 02:14 PM, Itamar Reis Peixoto wrote:
>> after mass rebuild why some packages still have fc10 in their names ?

TC> Those would be all the packages that failed the mass rebuild. A lot of
TC> those java packages are unmaintained, if memory serves.

I've been meaning to ask, what are the consequences in terms of the
rpm format etc. for packages that didn't pass the mass rebuild (for
whatever reason, oftentimes GCC 4.4 problems)?

I thought one of the reasons for the mass rebuild was because of the
changes to rpm and the RPM format.  Will the older packages -fc10 (or
even -fc11 if built before the rpm change) built with the older rpm,
install properly for example?

Also are the mass-rebuild status pages still being updated?

http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/failed-f11-rebuilds.html
http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html

and what is the difference between them?  It seems that the latter
list is longer (184 vs. 124) and I'm quite sure why.

Alex



From alexl at users.sourceforge.net  Thu Apr  2 08:29:00 2009
From: alexl at users.sourceforge.net (Alex Lancaster)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:29:00 -0700
Subject: fc10 files in Fedora beta DVD
In-Reply-To: <rn1vsbqxfw.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu> (Alex Lancaster's
	message of "Thu\, 02 Apr 2009 01\:20\:03 -0700")
References: <d3ceea380904011114tfbdc79arc6ee5cbb9a725557@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D3AFE3.7040100@redhat.com>
	<rn1vsbqxfw.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <w5vdpnpigj.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>

>>>>> Alex Lancaster  writes:

[...]

> Also are the mass-rebuild status pages still being updated?

> http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/failed-f11-rebuilds.html
> http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html

> and what is the difference between them?  It seems that the latter
> list is longer (184 vs. 124) and I'm quite sure why.

Sorry, I should have said "I'm not quite sure why"... ;)

A.



From rvykydal at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 09:45:04 2009
From: rvykydal at redhat.com (Radek Vykydal)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:45:04 +0200
Subject: Automated System Recovery Tool
In-Reply-To: <288390.53237.qm@web45816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <288390.53237.qm@web45816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49D48920.9080902@redhat.com>

Just in case you don't know about it, https://fedorahosted.org/firstaidkit/
could be interesting for you, though the approach is different I think.



From pertusus at free.fr  Thu Apr  2 09:43:32 2009
From: pertusus at free.fr (Patrice Dumas)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:43:32 +0200
Subject: feedback on provenpackager and sponsor policies, please
In-Reply-To: <20090331144712.GB2597@free.fr>
References: <20090330200140.GB2598@free.fr> <20090331073602.GB2681@free.fr>
	<49D2207D.8000907@redhat.com> <20090331144712.GB2597@free.fr>
Message-ID: <20090402094332.GH2613@free.fr>

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 04:47:12PM +0200, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> >
> > Um, see the prior link I sent that you wanted to archive...

Now everything is in 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Provenpackager_policy

and I changed accordingly
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_sponsor_a_new_contributor
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Who_is_allowed_to_modify_which_packages
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_get_sponsored_into_the_packager_group

Thanks, Christofer.


I think that FESCo could review what the Provenpackager_policy
page looks like now.

--
Pat



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr  2 09:57:55 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Thu,  2 Apr 2009 09:57:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090402 changes
Message-ID: <20090402095755.E2ACD1B8001@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Thu Apr  2 06:01:03 UTC 2009



From sf181257 at students.mimuw.edu.pl  Thu Apr  2 10:39:33 2009
From: sf181257 at students.mimuw.edu.pl (=?UTF-8?B?IlN0YW5pc8WCYXcgVC4gRmluZGVpc2VuIg==?=)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:39:33 +0200
Subject: Web of Trust (a revolution)
Message-ID: <49D495E5.5000202@students.mimuw.edu.pl>

Hello, o, Noble Fedora Developers!

I would like to draw your attention to "Web of Trust (a revolution)" 
thread which I started on fedora-list at redhat.com .

It looks that it is possible to create a PKI-like certificate hierarchy 
using OpenPGP, and I suggest it is worth to create a Fedora/Redhat based 
"CA" and to develop a web of trust.

Let's do it to increase security and authenticity, to promote GNU, free 
software, Fedora and bazaar model all at the same time. Let's do it 
before all those Big Companies out there start selling their X.509s on a 
mass scale.

We've lost with patents in many jurisdictions, but let's win this battle.

STF

=======================================================================
http://eisenbits.homelinux.net/~stf/
OpenPGP: 9D25 3D89 75F1 DF1D F434  25D7 E87F A1B9 B80F 8062
=======================================================================

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From debayanin at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 11:47:46 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 17:17:46 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/2 James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>:
>> ?Because it came added by default in the distro. Because it
>> was mentioned on a Fedora website.
>
> ?But neither of these are true. And they are that way for a reason, if
> it was a good idea to have Fedora trust one or more third part
> repositories for it's users ... Fedora would have already done it by
> installing the *-release packages for those repos.

I was not talking about 3rd party repositories above. I was talking
about official repositories.
>
>> Its the same thing with my approach. Users trust Fedora hosted sites
>> and they click on these 1 click install links only if its on a Fedora
>> site, and hence only add official repositories.
>> We need the trust-vote-ranking system only for 3rd party repositories.
>
> ?So you want to create a category of "official third party
> repositories", ok fine ... go argue with FESCO for that, but I don't see
> a current technical limitation here (well none that you're saying you'll
> fix, anyway).

Its not official. Its users suggesting it to users, the way users
suggest Fedora to users as a good distro. Why do you not believe that
concept then?
>
>> >> http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~dperkins/projects/pk-oci/.
>> >
>> > ?This was rejected previously due to not being secure, what has changed?
>>
>> On the security aspect you have the trust-vote system for 3rd party
>> repos
>
> ?Which implies that Fedora host trusted/official third party repos. ...
> and that a voting system for trust is a workable idea.

yes, it is a workable idea, as Patrick. W. Barnes went to great
lengths to explain
<http://groups.google.com/group/redhat-summer/browse_thread/thread/50de9e16d5407b9c>
>
>> > ?Why do you think votes (esp. those by users) and trust are related? I
>> > guess it's not a _terrible_ hint, but it's surely not a good one either.
>> > ?We don't do Fedora package reviews by having everyone vote, so I don't
>> > see why we'd want to do the same thing for (expandable) sets of
>> > packages.
>>
>> Well downloading and installing packages is something any user does
>> and hence they have a right to vote for what they liked, like voting
>> for water they consume. Voting for package reviews should be done by
>> people who understand packaging, not by users who use them. Like
>> voting for the filtration process at the water treatment plant.
>
> ?I think you are confused, voting for third party repos. is identical to
> voting for multiple package reviews (even worse, because packages can
> then be added after up votes).

No. I think you are being paranoid. Bad packages can be added after
votes, yes, and it will decrease the rankings of the repository soon.
You are saying you only trust yourself in the whole wide world. And
this paranoia is stopping Linux adoption at a certain point. you have
to let 3rd party, ISVs make software packages for users too. The only
thing we can then do is point the users to the right direction. I
understand you wont want to do even that, which is ok. But atleast let
people share their opinion among themselves.

>
> ?If what you prose was possible and implemented then given a problem of
> "I want to make package X available to Fedora users" you could then do
> either:
>
> 1. Try to add the package to Fedora -- unlucky now I have to pass a
> review.

I understand review must be a difficult process since you consider
yourself unlucky to review.
> 2. Put the package in my own repo. and propose to add the repo. to
> Fedora -- lucky, now I get random users to up vote me (or just do it
> myself posing as multiple users).

Ok lets clear the confusion. 1) Official repositories are official
repositories. Maintain them the way you do currently. Dont care about
everything else. You carry on with your package reviews normally. 2)
Let ISVs, 3rd party developers package stuff and host their own
repositories. Ofcourse, they may be better than you. Users have the
right to decide.

And you concern about multiple-votes and all that was obviously raised
before too. Here was my argument:

" I was advised on the Fedora list by Patrick Barnes to use the voting
approach. I thought it made sense since it will keep evil people
(repositories) away
the same way wikipedia protects itself from evil people.
Also there may be admins, like me, who shall ban a particular
repository from the listings if it is found to be a malicious
repository. If a repo is getting too many good votes unjustly, a lot
of normal good people will also use it and finf it to be crap and vote
against. If a repo is evil, there *will* be several "do not
recommend" votes to it which will attract attention. "
>
>> > ?Given that Fedora, as a distro., don't ship rpmfusion-free-release (for
>> > both legal and non-legal reasons) ... why do you think they will
>> > maintain this list?
>>
>> To help users remain safe.
>
> ?Except if we did what you propose users would be much less safe.

yeah. So give them a weapon like trust-vote. The current model of
"trust only yourself, everyone else is the enemy" has an elastic limit
and is stunting Fedora's growth.
>
>> ?To make users aware. And Fedora is not
>> recommending any repository at all. Its the users recommending it to
>> other users (reminds me of p2p). Fedora just hosts that opinion,
>> nothing else.
>
> ?This is like arguing that Fedora could/should host an open bittorrent
> tracker and allow users to put anything in it, but sure go ask FESCO I'm
> sure they could do with a laugh.

Calling it a bit-torrent tracker is trying to create negative paranoia
about this proposal.
I call it a repository of public opinion.
And I was looking forward to feedback from more people on this list. I
already have a lot of feedback on the other lists, but this list is
really busy with development i think.
I chose this as my GSoC proposal knowing that it will be very
difficult to get passed through, and will involve convincing n number
of people from m number of lists, but its all worth it. It really is
IMO.
>


-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 12:50:33 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 08:50:33 -0400
Subject: Wiki Freeze Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <gr18ql$ege$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <6268CAE1187543EF803DFB198B8AEBE3@Aidan>
	<gr18ql$ege$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090402125033.GK9334@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 04:44:37AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> John J. McDonough wrote:
> > Following the wiki freeze we still can make changes in the xml, so if
> > something comes up that should change the release notes, email myself or
> > Ryan Lerch and we will make the changes.
> 
> Has the conversion already happened? If it did, can this change (additions
> only) please be pulled in?
> https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Documentation_Desktop_Beat&diff=94418&oldid=94383

Thanks for the heads-up Kevin -- I just added this material to the
XML, synchronizing it with your wiki changes.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr  2 13:05:15 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:05:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Borked system after last nights rawhide update
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904021022540.24183@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090401083658.M85681@all-the-johnsons.co.uk>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904021022540.24183@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904020904470.19435@localhost.localdomain>



On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Panu Matilainen wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Paul F. Johnson wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I did a big update last night from rawhide and other than the Noveau 
>> problem
>> with GDM which has been updated, I didn't notice any problems. Then my 
>> system
>> crashed...
>> 
>> When I rebooted inittab was missing and udev was unable to find anything (I
>> had loads of udev failures for finding anything within /dev).
>> 
>> As yet, I'm unable to get that machine to reboot and return to a desktop 
>> (it
>> will get through to being able to log in, but as it can't find any of the
>> groups or users, it can't be logged in).
>> 
>> I can boot from a RIPLinux disc and mount the drive, so everything is still
>> there (which is good).
>> 
>> Any ideas on how to fix this problem? I've not seen any other reports on 
>> here
>> so far.
>
> Do you have a yum.log of this system available? In bug 492947, according to 
> yum.log "something" has *erased* half the system (including setup etc) in 
> what appears to be a separate transaction, which will certainly end up in 
> missing /etc/passwd and such.
>

And did you run yum-complete-transaction after an aborted transaction 
where X died, by any chance?

-sv



From debayanin at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 13:13:34 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:43:34 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904020613k18df251uefd3f8c335486fd8@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/2 Debayan Banerjee <debayanin at gmail.com>:
>> 1. Try to add the package to Fedora -- unlucky now I have to pass a
>> review.
>
> I understand review must be a difficult process since you consider
> yourself unlucky to review.

ok sorry. i did not understand the sentence properly.
-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  2 13:39:50 2009
From: julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com (Julian Aloofi)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:39:50 +0200
Subject: NetworkManager - Can not store wireless pass phrase
In-Reply-To: <49D3BD2C.3090203@kiewel-online.ch>
References: <49D3BD2C.3090203@kiewel-online.ch>
Message-ID: <1238679590.3475.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

In general it should save your password automatically (I assume you use
Fedora 10). Maybe you should delete your WLAN from the connection list,
connect, enter your password and just reboot and see whether it worked
automatically.

Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2009, 21:14 +0200 schrieb Uwe Kiewel:
> Hi,
> 
> I cannot store the pass phrase for my wireless lan in NetworkManager.
> 
> Procedure:
> - left click on NM icon
> - selecting my wireless lan
> - entering my pass phrase
> - connect successful
> 
> Later:
> - right click on NM icon
> - edit connection -> wireless
> - selecting my connection -> Edit -> wireless security
> - box for pass phrase is empty
> - entering my pass phrase
> - clicking apply
> - closing window
> 
> Repeating this procedure, the in wireless security, there is no pass 
> phase :-(
> 
> Is this a bug or is there an error in my procedure?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 	Uwe
> 
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From ml at kiewel-online.ch  Thu Apr  2 13:49:47 2009
From: ml at kiewel-online.ch (Uwe Kiewel)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:49:47 +0200
Subject: NetworkManager - Can not store wireless pass phrase
In-Reply-To: <1238679590.3475.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49D3BD2C.3090203@kiewel-online.ch>
	<1238679590.3475.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49D4C27B.20604@kiewel-online.ch>

Julian Aloofi wrote:
> In general it should save your password automatically (I assume you use
> Fedora 10). 

Oh, my fault: It's Rawhide :-)

> Maybe you should delete your WLAN from the connection list,
> connect, enter your password and just reboot and see whether it worked
> automatically.

I have had also this idea, but it didn't help.


Thnaks,
	Uwe

> 
> Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2009, 21:14 +0200 schrieb Uwe Kiewel:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I cannot store the pass phrase for my wireless lan in NetworkManager.
>>
>> Procedure:
>> - left click on NM icon
>> - selecting my wireless lan
>> - entering my pass phrase
>> - connect successful
>>
>> Later:
>> - right click on NM icon
>> - edit connection -> wireless
>> - selecting my connection -> Edit -> wireless security
>> - box for pass phrase is empty
>> - entering my pass phrase
>> - clicking apply
>> - closing window
>>
>> Repeating this procedure, the in wireless security, there is no pass 
>> phase :-(
>>
>> Is this a bug or is there an error in my procedure?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> 	Uwe
>>



From ajax at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 14:27:03 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:27:03 -0400
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <49D44A43.9000507@redhat.com>
References: <49CD379D.8040104@verizon.net> <1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>
	<gqr9qk$mk3$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<faa16b610903301337i7cd94e4dr61c995c084231a37@mail.gmail.com>
	<gqraro$rqj$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238508985.5005.1378.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<faa16b610903310751n8aa8be0ib8ee3c1831aae932@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238514493.5005.1419.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<49D44A43.9000507@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1238682423.4115.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 01:16 -0400, Casey Dahlin wrote:

> If X simply knew it was in an inconsistent state, could it initiate
> recovery from there? It'd be nice if we could have a simple
> /usr/bin/xreconfig so we could add this to the "easy fix from vt" cases.

Ngggh.

xrandr --auto would get you most of the way there, except, if you're
vt-switched away from X, then it can't actually do the hardware probe
again, because it doesn't own the hardware.  You could do something like
(chvt 7; sleep 5; xrandr --auto) &, along with all the requisite
DISPLAY= and XAUTHORITY= and maybe that would help?

- ajax
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From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  2 14:27:44 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:27:44 +0100
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <49D41060.50907@redhat.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>	<f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>	<49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com>
	<49D41060.50907@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D4CB60.5060009@googlemail.com>

Caius "kaio" Chance wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>   
>> Adam Miller wrote:
>>     
>>> I'm actually having a similar issue when trying to test in VirtualBox.
>>> I see the boot up process (I forget the name of the new replacement
>>> thing) load the progress bar and then just a blank screen. I plan to
>>> boot to real hardware soon as soon as I have some free time and see if
>>> i can get to a tty to check logs and such. Otherwise I will be trying
>>> to compose a more updated image in a few days and try again.
>>>
>>> -Adam
>>>       
>
> I got same issue on my real hardware with F11 Beta DVD. :(
>
> You are not alone. We are the world...
>
> kaio
>
> - --
> Caius Chance, Soft Eng, I18N, Red Hat APAC, cchance AT redhat DOT com
> JP (Qual), RHCE, MCSE, CCNA, JLPT4, http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAknUEGAACgkQmo+B7bGj5dJPSQCfZ9Dk4Nc+9revmTL7mrt+giTd
> FusAn2CxT9a6EWWKLnON9DzwHMg/d5z+
> =TuR0
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>   
well to follow up on this i can't get the i686 xfce live, the standard 
i686 gnome live or the x86-64 dvd install F11 beta media to work on my 
desktop or netbook, both of which are currently running F10 :/

i'm going to try and work through it this evening but if i get no joy  
i'll just wait for F11 final and go contribute to other projects that 
check there media before releasing it! i get that it's beta, but how are 
you supposed to help squash bugs if the bloody distro wont even install!



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Thu Apr  2 15:00:51 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:00:51 +0200
Subject: future f12 test days
Message-ID: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>

Hi all,

so testdays are a really cool way of testing feature progress during an
alpha/beta cycle. I guess upstream projects really love all those corner
cases being tested.

So as Paul stated
(http://marilyn.frields.org:8080/~paul/wordpress/?p=1577)

The wiki is public now, which makes it possible to test features (and
post the results) for everybody not only FAS members. This is definitely
a good thing, but I guess there are a few more points to make that work:

a) we should _always_ have USB images ready. That should lower the
testing costs to zero.

b) we need public attention (aka PR), I already tried to get that into
some german online media and phoronix for nouveau test day, but with
little success (only prolinux.de reacted). I guess no one will make a
headline for every testday, so it would be a good idea to bring
attention to the test days (and the schedule) in the alpha release notes
(and pounce the media on those). Some ambassadors having PR experience
here?

c) make the test cases as automated as possible. Offer sending smolt
profile (smoltGUI) and run test cases directly from the desktop. Also We
should add a link (or the document itself) about how to test what and
why to the desktop. If it's possible for the test generated results
should also be posted automagically to the results page, or, if tests
fail, bug reports could be created by bugbuddy.

So that are my 2ct. I would come up with a prototype for c) but
currently, I've got only very limited time because I am working on my
thesis. I have to see if can do something after Easter, bit if someone
finds that idea useful and has some spare time, please don't hesitate to
start work!

regards

Christoph



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From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 15:29:42 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:29:42 -0400
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
Message-ID: <20090402152942.GG24650@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 05:00:51PM +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> so testdays are a really cool way of testing feature progress during an
> alpha/beta cycle. I guess upstream projects really love all those corner
> cases being tested.
> 
> So as Paul stated
> (http://marilyn.frields.org:8080/~paul/wordpress/?p=1577)
> 
> The wiki is public now, which makes it possible to test features (and
> post the results) for everybody not only FAS members. This is definitely
> a good thing, but I guess there are a few more points to make that work:
> 
> a) we should _always_ have USB images ready. That should lower the
> testing costs to zero.
> 
> b) we need public attention (aka PR), I already tried to get that into
> some german online media and phoronix for nouveau test day, but with
> little success (only prolinux.de reacted). I guess no one will make a
> headline for every testday, so it would be a good idea to bring
> attention to the test days (and the schedule) in the alpha release notes
> (and pounce the media on those). Some ambassadors having PR experience
> here?

Cc'ing the fedora-docs-list to reference above.

I added a placeholder note for that future page:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Alpha_release_notes

> c) make the test cases as automated as possible. Offer sending smolt
> profile (smoltGUI) and run test cases directly from the desktop. Also We
> should add a link (or the document itself) about how to test what and
> why to the desktop. If it's possible for the test generated results
> should also be posted automagically to the results page, or, if tests
> fail, bug reports could be created by bugbuddy.

Not sure if bugbuddy adds any heft to the Live images.  Regardless
though, I actually was talking to James Laska about this just the
other day.  The easier the community uptake, the more people can dive
in and get involved.

I've found the Live images really helped me.  I don't tend to have a
lot of time to devote to testing, yet I was able to successfully
run some tests and generate a few bug reports for the Nouveau test
day.  It was a great experience and I'd like as many other people to
enjoy it as possible.

I'd suggest that followups on this go to fedora-test-list, since
that's typically where the QA folks do the bulk of their planning and
execution.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Thu Apr  2 15:40:01 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:40:01 -0500
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <1238626476.17609.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49CD379D.8040104@verizon.net>
	<1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>	<49D057C7.40005@fedoraproject.org>
	<1238464539.3941.9.camel@moose>	<20090331065952.GA12945@iota.trudheim.co.uk>	<49D1CBF7.2070400@falconpl.org>
	<1238626476.17609.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gr2m8k$ihe$1@ger.gmane.org>

Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 09:53 +0200, Giancarlo Niccolai wrote:
>> Good computing => "least surprise effect".
>> People coming from windows => ctrl+alt+<fumble>bs  "OH CRAP --- I am so 
>> XXXX I forgot to save my work files in 15 Word (ops, Openoffice) windows 
>> in the past 3 days!!!!"
> 
> Openoffice has autosave/crash recovery, so this would not happen.

...which mitigates the alleged "harm" of c-a-bs, weakening the argument 
against it.

>> People knowing their systems and just upgrading => x blocked =>  
>> ctrl+alt+bs ... ctrl+alt+bs... "what the..." ... CTRL+ALT+BS. "OH SHIT 
>> -- I got to hard reboot loosing all the work on console sessions and 
>> possibly fucking up that crap of XXXX filesystem the installer forced me 
>> to use!!!!"
> 
> Ctrl-alt-bs doesn't reboot the kernel so your filesystem loss scenario
> is at odds with reality.

...which means that the alternative (which *is* to hard-kill the entire 
system) is far more destructive than c-a-bs; thus, a reason for it to stay.

I'm confused; both of you seem to feel that c-a-bs is better than no c-a-bs?

-- 
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
-- 
Never give up on learning



From Jochen at herr-schmitt.de  Thu Apr  2 15:58:00 2009
From: Jochen at herr-schmitt.de (Jochen Schmitt)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:58:00 +0200
Subject: [Help Wanted]F-9 Update of stellarium for Qt-4.5
Message-ID: <49D4E088.5040805@herr-schmitt.de>

Hallo,

there is a plan to introduced Qt-4.5 on F-9 in the next weeks. Because 
on the upstream
website on the stellarium project I could read that the recent release 
of this software was
patched to work together with Qt-4.5 I have create an update for this 
package.

The update you may find at:

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/stellarium-0.10.2-2.fc9.1

Because I'm on vacation for the next two weeks and have not network 
access, It may
be nice, if anyone which have the required right to push this update 
into the require
stages can take over this task to make sure, that the user may got a 
working release
of this package.

BTW: Why are there no pushes on bodhi on the several last days?

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt



From tomek at pipebreaker.pl  Thu Apr  2 16:01:39 2009
From: tomek at pipebreaker.pl (Tomasz Torcz)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:01:39 +0200
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
Message-ID: <20090402160138.GA11300@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>

On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 05:00:51PM +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> c) make the test cases as automated as possible. Offer sending smolt
> profile (smoltGUI) and run test cases directly from the desktop. Also We
> should add a link (or the document itself) about how to test what and
> why to the desktop. If it's possible for the test generated results
> should also be posted automagically to the results page, or, if tests
> fail, bug reports could be created by bugbuddy.


  For example, look at script prepared for Ubuntu guys:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/SuspendResumeTesting

-- 
Tomasz Torcz                 Morality must always be based on practicality.
xmpp: zdzichubg at chrome.pl                -- Baron Vladimir Harkonnen



From jkeating at j2solutions.net  Thu Apr  2 16:11:20 2009
From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 09:11:20 -0700
Subject: fc10 files in Fedora beta DVD
In-Reply-To: <rn1vsbqxfw.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
References: <d3ceea380904011114tfbdc79arc6ee5cbb9a725557@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D3AFE3.7040100@redhat.com>
	<rn1vsbqxfw.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <1238688680.3931.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 01:20 -0700, Alex Lancaster wrote:
> Also are the mass-rebuild status pages still being updated?

They fall over when my local ssh falls over, due to needing forwarded
agent to scp the results.

> 
> http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/failed-f11-rebuilds.html
> http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html
> 
> and what is the difference between them?  It seems that the latter
> list is longer (184 vs. 124) and I'm quite sure why.
> 

failed rebuilds are the builds we attempted and failed.  Needed rebuilds
are packages that are listed as being in dist-f11 that haven't yet been
built.  There is some overlap, but not complete overlap.

-- 
Jesse Keating RHCE      (http://jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project          (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key          (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)
identi.ca               (http://identi.ca/jkeating)
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From bruno at wolff.to  Thu Apr  2 16:17:51 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:17:51 -0500
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
Message-ID: <20090402161751.GC13313@wolff.to>

On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 17:00:51 +0200,
  Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> 
> b) we need public attention (aka PR), I already tried to get that into
> some german online media and phoronix for nouveau test day, but with
> little success (only prolinux.de reacted). I guess no one will make a
> headline for every testday, so it would be a good idea to bring
> attention to the test days (and the schedule) in the alpha release notes
> (and pounce the media on those). Some ambassadors having PR experience
> here?

For the hardware related test days, I think trying to get announcments
on phoronix would be a good idea.



From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 17:20:12 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:20:12 -0700
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
Message-ID: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com>

I had the fortune to attend pycon this past week and went to a talk
about python-2.6 compatibility with python-3.

http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/74/

The slides from that are available and largely self-explanatory.  They
list tricks for getting python code that runs on both py2.6 and py3.x.

However, one of the things that isn't obvious is what's missing from the
equation to make the idea of porting one library at a time work.  The
ideas in the slides hinge upon writing code that runs on python3.x and
then making that backwards compatible with python-2.6's py3
compatibility.  In Fedora, we're going to have the problem of taking
code and trying to port it to python-2.6's py3 compatibility layer and
then fixing it to run on py3k if necessary.  This is much harder as
python-2.6 will accept most python-2.5 and less code so we won't know
when we're using idioms that will not work in python-3.x.

Another thing that's missing is a 2to3 like tool that targets 2.6+compat
instead of python3.  However, this one might be possible if we ask.

A side note is that the Core devs apparently talked about naming the
interpreter binary for python /usr/bin/python3 at the language summit.
If they do this, /usr/bin/python will always mean python2 and
/usr/bin/python3 will be for python-3.x.  Not sure if that influences us
or not.

I don't have a solution for this yet.  Just throwing this out there as
something we need to consider as we start to port code to python-2.6
+py3 compat.

-Toshio

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From rdieter at math.unl.edu  Thu Apr  2 17:33:13 2009
From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:33:13 -0500
Subject: [Help Wanted]F-9 Update of stellarium for Qt-4.5
References: <49D4E088.5040805@herr-schmitt.de>
Message-ID: <gr2ssq$bf8$1@ger.gmane.org>

Jochen Schmitt wrote:

> there is a plan to introduced Qt-4.5 on F-9 in the next weeks. Because
> on the upstream
> website on the stellarium project I could read that the recent release
> of this software was
> patched to work together with Qt-4.5 I have create an update for this
> package.
> 
> The update you may find at:
> 
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/stellarium-0.10.2-2.fc9.1

We can batch this together with qt-4.5.0, instead of it being done
separately as well.

We're tracking what to include here:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Qt45

Anything needed here for F-10?

-- Rex



From Jochen at herr-schmitt.de  Thu Apr  2 17:46:29 2009
From: Jochen at herr-schmitt.de (Jochen Schmitt)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 19:46:29 +0200
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
In-Reply-To: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com>
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D4F9F5.7080302@herr-schmitt.de>

Toshio Kuratomi schrieb:
> I don't have a solution for this yet.  Just throwing this out there as
> something we need to consider as we start to port code to python-2.6
> +py3 compat.
>   
I thnk there is an additional issue we have. On Fedora we have several 
packages
which use the C-API of python to extent the python environment. One example
it blender which contains python scripts which need a python extension 
provided
by blender.

I think porting this kind of application may nned a lot of work to 
porting to
Python 3000. So I thin wee need a python-2.6 compat package for a while 
until
all applications will been ported.

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 17:49:26 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:49:26 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <gr1q45$ikd$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org> <1238650802.4338.196.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1q45$ikd$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1238694566.4338.214.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 09:39 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Adam Williamson wrote:
> > If you can get it to build, I can test it (I will sacrifice my lovely
> > pure system at the altar of the KDE gods for the purpose ;>). It would
> > definitely be nice to have a working 0.22 KDE 4 plugin, for sure.
> 
> Here's the result of my insanity. ;-)
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=96291
> 
> Notes synchronization is expected not to work (that already was the case in
> the 0.36 stuff we had before; it'd have to be ported from the KNotes DCOP
> interface to D-Bus or something else). Calendar appointments and address
> book items are expected to work. Anything else is just not there.
> 
>         Kevin Kofler

This gets me:

Error while synchronizing: Can't load plugin implementation module
from /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so: /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so: undefined symbol: _ZN4KCal13IncidenceBase6setUidERK7QString

I tried rebuilding it on my local system to make sure it wasn't just
some kind of mismatch, but same error.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 17:55:45 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 13:55:45 -0400
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
In-Reply-To: <49D4F9F5.7080302@herr-schmitt.de>
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com> <49D4F9F5.7080302@herr-schmitt.de>
Message-ID: <49D4FC21.3090407@redhat.com>

On 04/02/2009 01:46 PM, Jochen Schmitt wrote:

> I think porting this kind of application may nned a lot of work to
> porting to
> Python 3000. So I thin wee need a python-2.6 compat package for a while
> until
> all applications will been ported.

The problem with this approach is that it does not motivate upstreams to
move to Python 3, they will just depend on the compat package, and we'll
have a lot of trouble convincing anyone to move.

I think part of the solution will be for Fedora developers to help port
such applications to Python 3, and do so in a way that they detect the
version of python at runtime and set defines appropriately. That way, we
can have applications ready for Python3 before we actually make the switch.

~spot



From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 17:53:00 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:53:00 -0700
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
In-Reply-To: <49D4F9F5.7080302@herr-schmitt.de>
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com> <49D4F9F5.7080302@herr-schmitt.de>
Message-ID: <49D4FB7C.3060705@gmail.com>

Jochen Schmitt wrote:
> Toshio Kuratomi schrieb:
>> I don't have a solution for this yet.  Just throwing this out there as
>> something we need to consider as we start to port code to python-2.6
>> +py3 compat.
>>   
> I thnk there is an additional issue we have. On Fedora we have several
> packages
> which use the C-API of python to extent the python environment. One example
> it blender which contains python scripts which need a python extension
> provided
> by blender.
> 
> I think porting this kind of application may nned a lot of work to
> porting to
> Python 3000. So I thin wee need a python-2.6 compat package for a while
> until
> all applications will been ported.
> 
I think that the C API is an additional barrier but if we can't do the
pure python modules in a gradual transition, whether we're able to port
the C API without a compat package period will be moot.

-Toshio

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From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 18:00:42 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:00:42 -0700
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
In-Reply-To: <49D4F9F5.7080302@herr-schmitt.de>
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com> <49D4F9F5.7080302@herr-schmitt.de>
Message-ID: <49D4FD4A.9010908@gmail.com>

Jochen Schmitt wrote:
> Toshio Kuratomi schrieb:
>> I don't have a solution for this yet.  Just throwing this out there as
>> something we need to consider as we start to port code to python-2.6
>> +py3 compat.
>>   
> I thnk there is an additional issue we have. On Fedora we have several
> packages
> which use the C-API of python to extent the python environment. One example
> it blender which contains python scripts which need a python extension
> provided
> by blender.
> 
> I think porting this kind of application may nned a lot of work to
> porting to
> Python 3000. So I thin wee need a python-2.6 compat package for a while
> until
> all applications will been ported.
> 
As a note:
  http://docs.python.org/3.0/howto/cporting.html#cporting-howto

That doesn't look as though porting is going to be outrageously hard
(lots of grunt work but there's recipes for each change).  However, I
don't know if that guide is complete.  That's something we'll have to
explore when we start porting to 3.x.

-Toshio

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From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 18:11:58 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:11:58 -0700
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
Message-ID: <1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 17:00 +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:

> a) we should _always_ have USB images ready. That should lower the
> testing costs to zero.

Well, we don't provide USB images for releases on the basis it's a waste
of space and bandwidth since you can simply convert them with the
script. I don't see why that reasoning doesn't hold for test days.

> b) we need public attention (aka PR), I already tried to get that into
> some german online media and phoronix for nouveau test day, but with
> little success (only prolinux.de reacted). I guess no one will make a
> headline for every testday, so it would be a good idea to bring
> attention to the test days (and the schedule) in the alpha release notes
> (and pounce the media on those). Some ambassadors having PR experience
> here?

Phoronix did run a story a few days later. I did get the nouveau day
onto OS News and Linux Today. It was also sent to digg but didn't get
voted up very high.

Test Days are already announced on -devel-list, -test-list, fedora
forums, my blog, and FWN.

Interestingly, I didn't promote the radeon test day to general-interest
media (only the Fedora-specific resources mentioned), and response was
pretty similar to the response for the nouveau test day, which did hit
some general-purpose media sites.

I don't think it's a good idea to spam general-interest news channels
with all our test days; we do at least one a week so it would get
irritating, and quite a few aren't really realistically going to get any
interest outside the Fedora project. I do plan to do news pumping on
specific days which are likely to have significant interest beyond the
Fedora community, like the nouveau day.

> c) make the test cases as automated as possible. Offer sending smolt
> profile (smoltGUI) and run test cases directly from the desktop. Also We
> should add a link (or the document itself) about how to test what and
> why to the desktop. If it's possible for the test generated results
> should also be posted automagically to the results page, or, if tests
> fail, bug reports could be created by bugbuddy.

These would all be nice, but we *are* running on a one-week cycle here,
it may be hard to get it all done. Assistance welcome. =) it's pretty
hard to automate some elements of some test cases, but some could
certainly be done with scripts etc.

It's worth noting the current test case and results system (especially
the results system...) are fairly ad-hoc. We are working within the QA
department on more advanced tools for managing test cases and results.

This discussion should probably move to fedora-test-list. CCing there.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 18:45:47 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:45:47 -0700
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 11:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

> > c) make the test cases as automated as possible. Offer sending smolt
> > profile (smoltGUI) and run test cases directly from the desktop. Also We
> > should add a link (or the document itself) about how to test what and
> > why to the desktop. If it's possible for the test generated results
> > should also be posted automagically to the results page, or, if tests
> > fail, bug reports could be created by bugbuddy.
> 
> These would all be nice, but we *are* running on a one-week cycle here,
> it may be hard to get it all done. Assistance welcome. =) it's pretty
> hard to automate some elements of some test cases, but some could
> certainly be done with scripts etc.

Oh, I forgot to mention another consideration here: I'm trying to write
these test cases to be pretty future-proof, so we could use them
virtually unmodified for F12, F13, F14...after all, the URLs don't have
expire-by dates and the test cases will still be hanging around in 10
years most likely. I suspect scripts are liable to go stale faster than
instructions.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 18:57:16 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 18:57:16 -0000
Subject: Broken dependencies in Fedora 9 - 2009-04-02
Message-ID: <20090402185716.10797.96288@faldor.intranet>

======================================================================
The results in this summary consider Test Updates!
======================================================================

Summary of broken packages (by src.rpm name):

    aasaver
    brasero
    cas
    cyphesis
    emma
    gadget
    kbiof
    livecd-tools
    mediawiki-SpecialInterwiki
    moodle
    openvas-libraries
    paraview
    perl-Test-AutoBuild
    php
    php-ZendFramework
    reinteract
    sear


Summary of broken packages (by primary owner):

    adam.stokes AT gmail com
        cas

    akahl AT iconmobile com
        php-ZendFramework

    berrange AT redhat com
        perl-Test-AutoBuild

    denis AT poolshark org
        brasero

    extras-orphan AT fedoraproject org
        aasaver
        kbiof

    huzaifas AT redhat com
        openvas-libraries

    jorton AT redhat com
        php                             (2 co-owners)

    katzj AT redhat com
        livecd-tools                    (2 co-owners)

    limb AT jcomserv net
        moodle

    nigjones AT redhat com
        mediawiki-SpecialInterwiki

    orion AT cora.nwra com
        paraview                        (1 co-owner)

    otaylor AT redhat com
        reinteract                      (1 co-owner)

    overholt AT redhat com
        emma

    simon AT schampijer de
        gadget                          (1 co-owner)

    wart AT kobold org
        cyphesis                        (1 co-owner)
        sear                            (1 co-owner)


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-9-i386:

    aasaver-0.3.2-3.fc9.i386  requires  libkscreensaver.so.4
    brasero-0.7.1-3.fc9.i386  requires  libburn.so.0
    cyphesis-selinux-0.5.15-6.fc9.i386  requires  cyphesis = 0:0.5.15-6.fc9
    kbiof-0.3-3.fc9.i386  requires  libkscreensaver.so.4
    sear-0.6.3-10.fc9.i386  requires  libmercator-0.2.so.4


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-9-ppc:

    aasaver-0.3.2-3.fc9.ppc  requires  libkscreensaver.so.4
    brasero-0.7.1-3.fc9.ppc  requires  libburn.so.0
    cyphesis-selinux-0.5.15-6.fc9.ppc  requires  cyphesis = 0:0.5.15-6.fc9
    kbiof-0.3-3.fc9.ppc  requires  libkscreensaver.so.4
    paraview-3.2.1-6.fc9.ppc64  requires  paraview-data = 0:3.2.1-6.fc9
    paraview-mpi-3.2.1-6.fc9.ppc64  requires  paraview-data = 0:3.2.1-6.fc9
    php-devel-5.2.5-7.fc9.ppc64  requires  php = 0:5.2.5-7.fc9
    sear-0.6.3-10.fc9.ppc  requires  libmercator-0.2.so.4


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-9-ppc64:

    aasaver-0.3.2-3.fc9.ppc64  requires  libkscreensaver.so.4()(64bit)
    brasero-0.7.1-3.fc9.ppc64  requires  libburn.so.0()(64bit)
    cyphesis-selinux-0.5.15-6.fc9.ppc64  requires  cyphesis = 0:0.5.15-6.fc9
    kbiof-0.3-3.fc9.ppc64  requires  libkscreensaver.so.4()(64bit)
    perl-Test-AutoBuild-darcs-1.2.2-3.fc9.noarch  requires  darcs >= 0:1.0.0
    sear-0.6.3-10.fc9.ppc64  requires  libmercator-0.2.so.4()(64bit)


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-9-x86_64:

    aasaver-0.3.2-3.fc9.x86_64  requires  libkscreensaver.so.4()(64bit)
    brasero-0.7.1-3.fc9.x86_64  requires  libburn.so.0()(64bit)
    cyphesis-selinux-0.5.15-6.fc9.x86_64  requires  cyphesis = 0:0.5.15-6.fc9
    kbiof-0.3-3.fc9.x86_64  requires  libkscreensaver.so.4()(64bit)
    paraview-3.2.1-6.fc9.i386  requires  paraview-data = 0:3.2.1-6.fc9
    paraview-mpi-3.2.1-6.fc9.i386  requires  paraview-data = 0:3.2.1-6.fc9
    php-devel-5.2.5-7.fc9.i386  requires  php = 0:5.2.5-7.fc9
    sear-0.6.3-10.fc9.x86_64  requires  libmercator-0.2.so.4()(64bit)


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-9-i386:

    cyphesis-0.5.15-8.fc9.i386  requires  libmercator-0.2.so.4
    mediawiki-SpecialInterwiki-0-0.3.20080606svn.fc9.noarch  requires  mediawiki < 0:1.11
    moodle-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  gnu-free-sans-fonts
    moodle-km-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  khmeros-base-fonts
    moodle-sm-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    moodle-to-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    openvas-libraries-1.0.2-2.fc9.i386  requires  libresolv.so.2(GLIBC_PRIVATE)


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-9-ppc:

    cas-0.13-118.fc9.noarch  requires  crash
    cyphesis-0.5.15-8.fc9.ppc  requires  libmercator-0.2.so.4
    mediawiki-SpecialInterwiki-0-0.3.20080606svn.fc9.noarch  requires  mediawiki < 0:1.11
    moodle-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  gnu-free-sans-fonts
    moodle-km-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  khmeros-base-fonts
    moodle-sm-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    moodle-to-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    openvas-libraries-1.0.2-2.fc9.ppc  requires  libresolv.so.2(GLIBC_PRIVATE)
    openvas-libraries-1.0.2-2.fc9.ppc64  requires  libresolv.so.2(GLIBC_PRIVATE)(64bit)


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-9-ppc64:

    cyphesis-0.5.15-8.fc9.ppc64  requires  libmercator-0.2.so.4()(64bit)
    emma-2.0-0.5312.2jpp.3.fc9.noarch  requires  maven2
    gadget-0.0.3-2.fc9.noarch  requires  ejabberd
    livecd-tools-017.2-1.fc9.ppc64  requires  yaboot
    mediawiki-SpecialInterwiki-0-0.3.20080606svn.fc9.noarch  requires  mediawiki < 0:1.11
    moodle-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  gnu-free-sans-fonts
    moodle-km-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  khmeros-base-fonts
    moodle-sm-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    moodle-to-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    openvas-libraries-1.0.2-2.fc9.ppc64  requires  libresolv.so.2(GLIBC_PRIVATE)(64bit)


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-9-x86_64:

    cyphesis-0.5.15-8.fc9.x86_64  requires  libmercator-0.2.so.4()(64bit)
    mediawiki-SpecialInterwiki-0-0.3.20080606svn.fc9.noarch  requires  mediawiki < 0:1.11
    moodle-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  gnu-free-sans-fonts
    moodle-km-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  khmeros-base-fonts
    moodle-sm-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    moodle-to-1.9.4-6.fc9.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    openvas-libraries-1.0.2-2.fc9.i386  requires  libresolv.so.2(GLIBC_PRIVATE)
    openvas-libraries-1.0.2-2.fc9.x86_64  requires  libresolv.so.2(GLIBC_PRIVATE)(64bit)


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-testing-9-i386:

    php-ZendFramework-tests-1.7.7-1.fc9.noarch  requires  php-pear(pear.phpunit.de/PHPUnit) >= 0:3.3.0
    reinteract-0.5.0-2.noarch  requires  python-matplotlib >= 0:0.98.0


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-testing-9-ppc:

    php-ZendFramework-tests-1.7.7-1.fc9.noarch  requires  php-pear(pear.phpunit.de/PHPUnit) >= 0:3.3.0
    reinteract-0.5.0-2.noarch  requires  python-matplotlib >= 0:0.98.0


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-testing-9-ppc64:

    php-ZendFramework-tests-1.7.7-1.fc9.noarch  requires  php-pear(pear.phpunit.de/PHPUnit) >= 0:3.3.0
    reinteract-0.5.0-2.noarch  requires  python-matplotlib >= 0:0.98.0


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-testing-9-x86_64:

    php-ZendFramework-tests-1.7.7-1.fc9.noarch  requires  php-pear(pear.phpunit.de/PHPUnit) >= 0:3.3.0
    reinteract-0.5.0-2.noarch  requires  python-matplotlib >= 0:0.98.0



From jlaska at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 19:24:54 2009
From: jlaska at redhat.com (James Laska)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:24:54 -0400
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1238700294.3350.26.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 11:45 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 11:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > > c) make the test cases as automated as possible. Offer sending
> smolt
> > > profile (smoltGUI) and run test cases directly from the desktop.
> Also We
> > > should add a link (or the document itself) about how to test what
> and
> > > why to the desktop. If it's possible for the test generated
> results
> > > should also be posted automagically to the results page, or, if
> tests
> > > fail, bug reports could be created by bugbuddy.
> > 
> > These would all be nice, but we *are* running on a one-week cycle
> here,
> > it may be hard to get it all done. Assistance welcome. =) it's
> pretty
> > hard to automate some elements of some test cases, but some could
> > certainly be done with scripts etc.
> 
> Oh, I forgot to mention another consideration here: I'm trying to
> write
> these test cases to be pretty future-proof, so we could use them
> virtually unmodified for F12, F13, F14...after all, the URLs don't
> have
> expire-by dates and the test cases will still be hanging around in 10
> years most likely. I suspect scripts are liable to go stale faster
> than instructions.

My initial concern was the lack of defined test cases.  Thankfully that
problem is slowly going away (see
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Test_Cases).  I'm always in
favor of automation where possible, but I try to make sure we know what
we automate before we dive into the shell.

However, with the test case "library" expanding ... it isn't a bad idea
to begin thinking as scripts/automation comes online, where/how will we
store these tests.  Depending on the test target, automation may already
exist.  So leveraging any off-the-shelf test automation is always a
"good thing."  Some of these questions will naturally tie into the
beaker project as that matures, but there's no reason we can't
discuss/debate these issues now.

Thanks,
James
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From james at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr  2 19:34:12 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:34:12 -0400
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
In-Reply-To: <49D4FC21.3090407@redhat.com>
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com> <49D4F9F5.7080302@herr-schmitt.de>
	<49D4FC21.3090407@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1238700852.31472.114.camel@code.and.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 13:55 -0400, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> On 04/02/2009 01:46 PM, Jochen Schmitt wrote:
> 
> > I think porting this kind of application may nned a lot of work to
> > porting to
> > Python 3000. So I thin wee need a python-2.6 compat package for a while
> > until
> > all applications will been ported.
> 
> The problem with this approach is that it does not motivate upstreams to
> move to Python 3, they will just depend on the compat package, and we'll
> have a lot of trouble convincing anyone to move.
> 
> I think part of the solution will be for Fedora developers to help port
> such applications to Python 3

 Personally I'm in 100% agreement with the first part of this. We
(Fedora) shouldn't be forcing this move. Upstreams will be motivated or
not and that will give a timeline for the move. Obviously people doing
upstream work and Fedora work can motivate their upstream (or not) as
they wish.

 If we get to the point where say > 75% of upstreams have moved
(presumably in a way that their code will also work with 2.6, at least
in the short term) then at that point I think we as a distro. should
look at what to do with the other 25% ... either spending most of a
release helping them, or just dropping them. Whatever.

 Another, maybe less significant to Fedora point, is that until about
~F13 a non-trivial number of python developers will need to have code
working in 2.6 _and_ 2.4. So any forced migration so that they have to
be compatible with 2.4, 2.6 and 3.x would be a major PITA for them.

-- 
James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>
Fedora



From jlaska at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 19:36:55 2009
From: jlaska at redhat.com (James Laska)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:36:55 -0400
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <20090402152942.GG24650@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402152942.GG24650@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1238701015.3350.38.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 11:29 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > c) make the test cases as automated as possible. Offer sending smolt
> > profile (smoltGUI) and run test cases directly from the desktop.
> Also We
> > should add a link (or the document itself) about how to test what
> and
> > why to the desktop. If it's possible for the test generated results
> > should also be posted automagically to the results page, or, if
> tests
> > fail, bug reports could be created by bugbuddy.
> 
> Not sure if bugbuddy adds any heft to the Live images.  Regardless
> though, I actually was talking to James Laska about this just the
> other day.  The easier the community uptake, the more people can dive
> in and get involved.
> 
> I've found the Live images really helped me.  I don't tend to have a
> lot of time to devote to testing, yet I was able to successfully
> run some tests and generate a few bug reports for the Nouveau test
> day.  It was a great experience and I'd like as many other people to
> enjoy it as possible.

Paul and I exchanged some good ideas here.  Thanks to the livecd-tools
[1] and spin-kickstarts [2] projects, the creation of Test Day live
images isn't tremendously difficult.

My apologies for not recalling the name, but a fellow tester posted a
comment in fedora planet recently suggesting this very idea ... that the
live image come with some pointers or instructions for the current test
day.  This is a great idea.

I'd like to not have to constantly edit the kickstart file used to
generate the live image.  Can folks think of a good way so that with a
little shell/python/$lang we can use the same kickstart file to produce
a live image that has ...

      * the Test Day starts as the firefox homepage
      * Or ... the firefox home page finds the most *current* test day
      * Create a .desktop file when clicked, "Join Test Day IRC
        discussion"
      * I know it's a live image, but should we enable kexec/kdump to
        easily capture kernel panics?

What do folks think?

Thanks,
James

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLiveCD
[2] https://fedorahosted.org/spin-kickstarts/
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From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 19:42:44 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 19:42:44 -0000
Subject: Broken dependencies in Fedora 10 - 2009-04-02
Message-ID: <20090402194244.11038.79230@faldor.intranet>

======================================================================
The results in this summary consider Test Updates!
======================================================================

Summary of broken packages (by src.rpm name):

    cabal2spec
    db4o
    gadget
    llvm
    mono-tools
    moodle
    perl-Catalyst-Runtime
    php


Summary of broken packages (by primary owner):

    bos AT serpentine com
        llvm

    cweyl AT alumni.drew edu
        perl-Catalyst-Runtime           (1 co-owner)

    jorton AT redhat com
        php                             (2 co-owners)

    limb AT jcomserv net
        moodle

    paul AT all-the-johnsons.co uk
        db4o
        mono-tools                      (2 co-owners)

    petersen AT redhat com
        cabal2spec                      (1 co-owner)

    simon AT schampijer de
        gadget                          (1 co-owner)


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-10-i386:

    db4o-6.1-4.fc9.i386  requires  mono(Mono.Cecil) = 0:0.6.8.8607
    mono-tools-2.0-8.fc10.i386  requires  mono(Mono.Cecil) = 0:0.6.8.8607


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-10-ppc:

    db4o-6.1-4.fc9.ppc  requires  mono(Mono.Cecil) = 0:0.6.8.8607
    llvm-devel-2.3-2.fc10.ppc64  requires  llvm = 0:2.3-2.fc10
    php-devel-5.2.6-5.ppc64  requires  php = 0:5.2.6-5


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-10-x86_64:

    db4o-6.1-4.fc9.x86_64  requires  mono(Mono.Cecil) = 0:0.6.8.8607
    mono-tools-2.0-8.fc10.x86_64  requires  mono(Mono.Cecil) = 0:0.6.8.8607
    php-devel-5.2.6-5.i386  requires  php = 0:5.2.6-5


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-10-i386:

    moodle-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  gnu-free-sans-fonts
    moodle-km-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  khmeros-base-fonts
    moodle-sm-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    moodle-to-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-10-ppc:

    moodle-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  gnu-free-sans-fonts
    moodle-km-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  khmeros-base-fonts
    moodle-sm-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    moodle-to-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-10-ppc64:

    cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc10.noarch  requires  ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
    gadget-0.0.3-2.fc10.noarch  requires  ejabberd
    moodle-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  gnu-free-sans-fonts
    moodle-km-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  khmeros-base-fonts
    moodle-sm-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    moodle-to-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-10-x86_64:

    moodle-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  gnu-free-sans-fonts
    moodle-km-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  khmeros-base-fonts
    moodle-sm-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts
    moodle-to-1.9.4-6.fc10.noarch  requires  dejavu-sans-fonts


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-testing-10-i386:

    perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc10.noarch  requires  perl(Term::Size::Any)


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-testing-10-ppc:

    perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc10.noarch  requires  perl(Term::Size::Any)


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-testing-10-ppc64:

    perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc10.noarch  requires  perl(Term::Size::Any)


======================================================================
Broken packages in fedora-updates-testing-10-x86_64:

    perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc10.noarch  requires  perl(Term::Size::Any)



From james at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr  2 19:44:15 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:44:15 -0400
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
In-Reply-To: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com>
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238701455.31472.124.camel@code.and.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 10:20 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> 
> A side note is that the Core devs apparently talked about naming the
> interpreter binary for python /usr/bin/python3 at the language summit.
> If they do this, /usr/bin/python will always mean python2 and
> /usr/bin/python3 will be for python-3.x.  Not sure if that influences
> us or not.

 I don't see why it would. We've had the possibility to
have /usr/bin/python2.4 etc. for a long time ... but it doesn't really
help us due the binary name only being part of the problem.
 In theory we could take this as an official "yes, this is a different
language" hint, and make a python3deps.sh for rpmbuild, rename all the
python pkgs etc. ... but even then, can gedit etc. embend both
languages?

-- 
James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>
Fedora



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  2 19:46:12 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:46:12 +0100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <20090402152942.GG24650@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402152942.GG24650@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49D51604.8080004@googlemail.com>

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 05:00:51PM +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
>   
>> Hi all,
>>
>> so testdays are a really cool way of testing feature progress during an
>> alpha/beta cycle. I guess upstream projects really love all those corner
>> cases being tested.
>>
>> So as Paul stated
>> (http://marilyn.frields.org:8080/~paul/wordpress/?p=1577)
>>
>> The wiki is public now, which makes it possible to test features (and
>> post the results) for everybody not only FAS members. This is definitely
>> a good thing, but I guess there are a few more points to make that work:
>>
>> a) we should _always_ have USB images ready. That should lower the
>> testing costs to zero.
>>
>> b) we need public attention (aka PR), I already tried to get that into
>> some german online media and phoronix for nouveau test day, but with
>> little success (only prolinux.de reacted). I guess no one will make a
>> headline for every testday, so it would be a good idea to bring
>> attention to the test days (and the schedule) in the alpha release notes
>> (and pounce the media on those). Some ambassadors having PR experience
>> here?
>>     
>
> Cc'ing the fedora-docs-list to reference above.
>
> I added a placeholder note for that future page:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Alpha_release_notes
>
>   
>> c) make the test cases as automated as possible. Offer sending smolt
>> profile (smoltGUI) and run test cases directly from the desktop. Also We
>> should add a link (or the document itself) about how to test what and
>> why to the desktop. If it's possible for the test generated results
>> should also be posted automagically to the results page, or, if tests
>> fail, bug reports could be created by bugbuddy.
>>     
>
> Not sure if bugbuddy adds any heft to the Live images.  Regardless
> though, I actually was talking to James Laska about this just the
> other day.  The easier the community uptake, the more people can dive
> in and get involved.
>
> I've found the Live images really helped me.  I don't tend to have a
> lot of time to devote to testing, yet I was able to successfully
> run some tests and generate a few bug reports for the Nouveau test
> day.  It was a great experience and I'd like as many other people to
> enjoy it as possible.
>
> I'd suggest that followups on this go to fedora-test-list, since
> that's typically where the QA folks do the bulk of their planning and
> execution.
>
>   
also if you are moving to using usb images for the test days surely the 
700mb cd limit can be stretched a little if needed for the live image?



From gradyfausta at laksmono.com  Thu Apr  2 19:48:23 2009
From: gradyfausta at laksmono.com (Grady Laksmono)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 12:48:23 -0700
Subject: [GSoC 2009] PackageDB Client Fedora Feature
Message-ID: <a6cfb8020904021248j32b88ae6y668e306f206a539d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,
I'm applying to the Google Summer of Code 2009, proposing to develop the
PackageDB Client as part of the Fedora feature. I published my proposal
here:

*URL:* http://laksmono.com/2009/04/02/fedora-feature-packagedb-client/
*Password:* fedora-gsoc

I hope that I could work at this project over the summer, as part of the
reason to help me get started to contribute in the Linux development,
specifically for the Fedora Project. I'd love to get some feedback.

Thanks a lot!
-- 
Grady Laksmono
gradyfausta at laksmono.com
www.laksmono.com

"I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you
and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."  ~ Jeremiah 29:11
~
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From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 19:51:08 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:51:08 -0700
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
In-Reply-To: <1238701455.31472.124.camel@code.and.org>
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com>
	<1238701455.31472.124.camel@code.and.org>
Message-ID: <49D5172C.3070007@gmail.com>

James Antill wrote:
>  In theory we could take this as an official "yes, this is a different
> language" hint, and make a python3deps.sh for rpmbuild, rename all the
> python pkgs etc. ... but even then, can gedit etc. embend both
> languages?
> 
yep, this is what I was getting at (both the "official hint" and the
"we'd have to look for other issues").

-Toshio

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From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 20:10:12 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 13:10:12 -0700
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <49D51604.8080004@googlemail.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402152942.GG24650@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D51604.8080004@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <1238703012.8700.24.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 20:46 +0100, psmith wrote:

> also if you are moving to using usb images for the test days surely the 
> 700mb cd limit can be stretched a little if needed for the live image?

Er, we're not, and no-one said we were?

I said we *shouldn't* do USB images because we provide a CD image and
it's trivial to convert that to a USB image if that's what you want.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 20:10:11 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 13:10:11 -0700
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
In-Reply-To: <1238700852.31472.114.camel@code.and.org>
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com>
	<49D4F9F5.7080302@herr-schmitt.de>	<49D4FC21.3090407@redhat.com>
	<1238700852.31472.114.camel@code.and.org>
Message-ID: <49D51BA3.6020501@gmail.com>

James Antill wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 13:55 -0400, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>> On 04/02/2009 01:46 PM, Jochen Schmitt wrote:
>>
>>> I think porting this kind of application may nned a lot of work to
>>> porting to
>>> Python 3000. So I thin wee need a python-2.6 compat package for a while
>>> until
>>> all applications will been ported.
>> The problem with this approach is that it does not motivate upstreams to
>> move to Python 3, they will just depend on the compat package, and we'll
>> have a lot of trouble convincing anyone to move.
>>
>> I think part of the solution will be for Fedora developers to help port
>> such applications to Python 3
> 
>  Personally I'm in 100% agreement with the first part of this. We
> (Fedora) shouldn't be forcing this move. Upstreams will be motivated or
> not and that will give a timeline for the move. Obviously people doing
> upstream work and Fedora work can motivate their upstream (or not) as
> they wish.
> 
>  If we get to the point where say > 75% of upstreams have moved
> (presumably in a way that their code will also work with 2.6, at least
> in the short term) then at that point I think we as a distro. should
> look at what to do with the other 25% ... either spending most of a
> release helping them, or just dropping them. Whatever.
> 
So if we take a wait for upstream path we need to make some changes in
our policy towards parallel python2/3 installs.  I think we need to
package the python3 interpreter so that people can do development of
python3 modules on Fedora.  Whether we allow python3 modules (so that
dependencies on more than the stdlib are easy) is more up in the air.
Certainly, it is going to be hard to develop very much of anything
without python3 modules but for things that are pure python, it is
possible for a developer to use easy_install to download those libraries
a lot of the time.  This does drive them away from distro packaging,
though, something I've been trying to get upstreams to see the benefit
of :-(

Note that including python3 modules opens the door for use of python3 in
applications while lack of modules pretty much means all but the
simplest command line applications will be stuck on python2.  For better
or for worse.

One thing I'm afraid of is how much trouble python3 is going to bring
for Unix.  Right now we have the opportunity to find issues and get
attention from python core devs for fixing them.  If we wait until
python-3.100 we'll be seen as johnny-come-latelys saying our platforms
are not compatible with what has already become standard practice in python.

>  Another, maybe less significant to Fedora point, is that until about
> ~F13 a non-trivial number of python developers will need to have code
> working in 2.6 _and_ 2.4. So any forced migration so that they have to
> be compatible with 2.4, 2.6 and 3.x would be a major PITA for them.
> 

About a year, year and a half?  I think that's viable but it will be
beginning to get painful.  python-2.4 and python-2.5 just aren't
compatible with python-3.x and Fedora shouldn't be staying on old
packages solely to make compatibility with python-2.4 possible.

If we want people to be able to do that, we should admit that python3
and python2.x are different languages and install both.  (potentially
doubling the number of python modules during transition).  If we want to
hold to the python3 is an upgrade of python2 path, we need to be aware
that breaking compatibility with python-2.4 is in the cards and accept
that Fedora 12 is likely to contain versions of python modules that
won't run on python-2.4/2.5

-Toshio

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From jlaska at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 20:18:21 2009
From: jlaska at redhat.com (James Laska)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:18:21 -0400
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238703012.8700.24.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402152942.GG24650@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D51604.8080004@googlemail.com>
	<1238703012.8700.24.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1238703501.3350.53.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 13:10 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 20:46 +0100, psmith wrote:
> 
> > also if you are moving to using usb images for the test days surely
> the 
> > 700mb cd limit can be stretched a little if needed for the live
> image?
> 
> Er, we're not, and no-one said we were?
> 
> I said we *shouldn't* do USB images because we provide a CD image and
> it's trivial to convert that to a USB image if that's what you want.

Adding to that ... we simply provide the image.  There are several
methods available for using that image, folks need to pick the option
for their environments:
 * CDRW media
 * USB media
 * QEMU image

The first 2 options are outlined in
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLiveCD.

Thanks,
James

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From jonstanley at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 20:40:20 2009
From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:40:20 -0400
Subject: Plan for tomorrow's (20090403) FESCo meeting
Message-ID: <da159fda0904021340k5800b3c2m2fb1d88b45453a8d@mail.gmail.com>

The following is a list of topics to be discussed in tomorrow's FESCo
meeting at 17:00UTC on irc.freenode.net

118	Asking for sponsoring status (+ provenpackager): mmaslano
125	New sponsor request - kasal
113	wanna-be provenpackager - caolanm
127	Request provenpackager - stahnma
10	Review list of non-provenpackager committable packages
121	Keep popt and ethtool non-provenpackager committable
124	Re:  Packages with closed ACL's - LVM related items
128	Firefox/Thunderbird/XULRunner closed ACL's
122	keep closed ACLs for hwdata package

For more complete details, please visit each individual ticket.  The
report of the agenda items can be found at
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/report/9

If you would like to add something to this agenda, you can reply to
this e-mail, file a new ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/fesco,
e-mail me directly, or bring it up at the end of the meeting, during
the open floor.



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Thu Apr  2 20:47:46 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:47:46 +0200
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>

Am Donnerstag, den 02.04.2009, 11:11 -0700 schrieb Adam Williamson:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 17:00 +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> 
> > a) we should _always_ have USB images ready. That should lower the
> > testing costs to zero.
> 
> Well, we don't provide USB images for releases on the basis it's a waste
> of space and bandwidth since you can simply convert them with the
> script. I don't see why that reasoning doesn't hold for test days.

I disagree on that: Using an USB image is the most non-invasive and
cheapest way, to run those tests. They allow modifying something and
rebooting, which is a real advantage in test cases IMO. 
Also USB devices are common nowadays - tools to convert cd images to usb
media are not (not every possible tester runs fedora yet).
If we really care about that little extra space we should provide USB
images and show how to convert them to cd/dvd images.

 
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From paul at xelerance.com  Thu Apr  2 20:51:43 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:51:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Web of Trust (a revolution)
In-Reply-To: <49D495E5.5000202@students.mimuw.edu.pl>
References: <49D495E5.5000202@students.mimuw.edu.pl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904021649190.1640@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, "Stanis?aw T. Findeisen" wrote:

> Let's do it to increase security and authenticity, to promote GNU, free
> software, Fedora and bazaar model all at the same time. Let's do it before all
> those Big Companies out there start selling their X.509s on a mass scale.

X.509 and the business of selling CA signed certs is dead, long live
DNSSEC+CERT (RFC2538). It will just take some time to die, and for browsers
to support this.

As for the web of trust, that died a long time ago....

Paul



From jonstanley at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 20:54:11 2009
From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:54:11 -0400
Subject: Lack of FESCo meeting summaries
Message-ID: <da159fda0904021354q3d61942do1769efcb990955ec@mail.gmail.com>

I have to apologize for the intermittent meeting summaries from FESCo
lately.  With this term of FESCo, we implemented a system whereby each
member would do the summary for two weeks, and then the duty would
pass to the next member, in order to alleviate the burden on the
chair.

It's become pretty clear that's a failed approach, and since I
maintain the FESCo tickets and close them out after a meeting
(generally with a summary of the outcome), I'll just send out a
summary after I do that from here on out (which generally happens on
Friday night or Saturday).  I also plan on publishing retroactive
summaries where they have not been, hopefully also this weekend.

Thanks!
/jds



From qralston+ml.redhat-fedora-devel at andrew.cmu.edu  Thu Apr  2 21:34:28 2009
From: qralston+ml.redhat-fedora-devel at andrew.cmu.edu (James Ralston)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:34:28 -0400
Subject: an interface for filesystem preallocation that doesn't suck?
Message-ID: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>

Now that ext4 is the default filesystem, it would be nice to see more
programs taking advantage of its preallocation features.

But here's my question: what is the best way to actually do this?

In recent glibc, posix_fallocate() will first try to use fallocate(),
and then fall back to writing nulls to fill up the requested range if
fallocate() fails.

The problem is, posix_fallocate()'s fallback behavior effectively
results in writing the file twice.  If we expect that the process of
writing the file's actual content will take a long time (e.g., I'm
using a BitTorrent client to download some Fedora DVD ISOs), then
that's not a big deal.  But if I'm using a utility like rsync or cp,
the performance penalty of writing every single file twice is
unacceptable.

Additionally, the semantics that result from using fallocate() with
FALLOC_FL_KEEP_SIZE (which posix_fallocate() does NOT do) are arguably
more intuitive, because FALLOC_FL_KEEP_SIZE (essentially) creates a
sparse file:

$ fallocate-test foo $[1024*1024*512] && ls -lsa foo
fallocate-test: allocating 536870912 bytes for new file foo
524292 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 2009-04-02 13:59 foo

If I'm (e.g.) downloading a large file via a P2P network, then I can
see the progress of the download by eyeballing the file's actual size
versus its allocated size.

I see that at one point, people were kicking around patches to use
ioctl() and/or fcntl() to perform preallocation.  Do any of those
interfaces actually exist, or were they deprecated in favor of
fallocate()?

If the latter, is there an interface for fallocate() that doesn't have
quite as much FAIL as posix_fallocate()?



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  2 21:51:28 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:51:28 +0100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238703012.8700.24.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<20090402152942.GG24650@localhost.localdomain>	<49D51604.8080004@googlemail.com>
	<1238703012.8700.24.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49D53360.5070308@googlemail.com>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 20:46 +0100, psmith wrote:
>
>   
>> also if you are moving to using usb images for the test days surely the 
>> 700mb cd limit can be stretched a little if needed for the live image?
>>     
>
> Er, we're not, and no-one said we were?
>
> I said we *shouldn't* do USB images because we provide a CD image and
> it's trivial to convert that to a USB image if that's what you want.
>   
well as my message was in reply initiall to this email

2009/4/2 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>
-----snip-----
_*
a) we should _always_ have USB images ready. That should lower the
testing costs to zero.*_

-----snip-----

then paul w frields mentioned

-----snip-----
*Not sure if bugbuddy adds any heft to the Live images.  Regardless
though, I actually was talking to James Laska about this just the
other day.  The easier the community uptake, the more people can dive
in and get involved.
*-----snip-----

to which i replied,

also if you are moving to using usb images for the test days surely the 
700mb cd limit can be stretched a little if needed for the live image?

so adam next time try reading the full email including the quotes instead of jumping the gun ;-)

phil 




From katzj at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 21:53:35 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 17:53:35 -0400
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
Message-ID: <20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>

On Thursday, April 02 2009, Christoph H?ger said:
> Am Donnerstag, den 02.04.2009, 11:11 -0700 schrieb Adam Williamson:
> > On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 17:00 +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> > > a) we should _always_ have USB images ready. That should lower the
> > > testing costs to zero.
> > 
> > Well, we don't provide USB images for releases on the basis it's a waste
> > of space and bandwidth since you can simply convert them with the
> > script. I don't see why that reasoning doesn't hold for test days.
> 
> I disagree on that: Using an USB image is the most non-invasive and
> cheapest way, to run those tests. They allow modifying something and
> rebooting, which is a real advantage in test cases IMO. 
> Also USB devices are common nowadays - tools to convert cd images to usb
> media are not (not every possible tester runs fedora yet).
> If we really care about that little extra space we should provide USB
> images and show how to convert them to cd/dvd images.

An image for a USB device, though, has problems with a) multiple sizes
of USB devices b) deleting data off of the USB devices c) a couple other
things that I'm flaking on at the moment.

livecd-iso-to-disk is a shell script that should run on basically any
Linux distro with syslinux installed (and people have sent patches to
fix up things, eg, for Ubuntu) and liveusb-creator works on Linux
platforms and Windows.

Jeremy



From sandeen at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 22:00:15 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:00:15 -0500
Subject: an interface for filesystem preallocation that doesn't suck?
In-Reply-To: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>
References: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <49D5356F.6030909@redhat.com>

James Ralston wrote:

> If the latter, is there an interface for fallocate() that doesn't have
> quite as much FAIL as posix_fallocate()?

yes, plain ol' fallocate(2), I think:

       #include <linux/falloc.h>

       long fallocate(int fd, int mode, loff_t offset, loff_t len);

but you need a very recent glibc to get it:

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=7083#c1

it'd be great if we could get that into F11...

BTW, ext4, xfs, btrfs, and ocfs2 all support ->fallocate.

-Eric



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  2 22:02:12 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 23:02:12 +0100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>

Jeremy Katz wrote:
> On Thursday, April 02 2009, Christoph H?ger said:
>   
>> Am Donnerstag, den 02.04.2009, 11:11 -0700 schrieb Adam Williamson:
>>     
>>> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 17:00 +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
>>>       
>>>> a) we should _always_ have USB images ready. That should lower the
>>>> testing costs to zero.
>>>>         
>>> Well, we don't provide USB images for releases on the basis it's a waste
>>> of space and bandwidth since you can simply convert them with the
>>> script. I don't see why that reasoning doesn't hold for test days.
>>>       
>> I disagree on that: Using an USB image is the most non-invasive and
>> cheapest way, to run those tests. They allow modifying something and
>> rebooting, which is a real advantage in test cases IMO. 
>> Also USB devices are common nowadays - tools to convert cd images to usb
>> media are not (not every possible tester runs fedora yet).
>> If we really care about that little extra space we should provide USB
>> images and show how to convert them to cd/dvd images.
>>     
>
> An image for a USB device, though, has problems with a) multiple sizes
> of USB devices b) deleting data off of the USB devices c) a couple other
> things that I'm flaking on at the moment.
>
> livecd-iso-to-disk is a shell script that should run on basically any
> Linux distro with syslinux installed (and people have sent patches to
> fix up things, eg, for Ubuntu) and liveusb-creator works on Linux
> platforms and Windows.
>
> Jeremy
>
>   
but sometimes both of those don't work, as i've recently found out with 
both the i686 gnome and xfce live f11 beta iso's, livecd-iso-to-disk nor 
liveusb-creator create working usb images, though this may be the iso's 
themselves that are the problem as previous versions worked with f9 and 
f10 iso's :-/



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr  2 22:22:15 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 03:52:15 +0530
Subject: an interface for filesystem preallocation that doesn't suck?
In-Reply-To: <49D5356F.6030909@redhat.com>
References: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>
	<49D5356F.6030909@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D53A97.60402@fedoraproject.org>

Eric Sandeen wrote:
> James Ralston wrote:
> 
>> If the latter, is there an interface for fallocate() that doesn't have
>> quite as much FAIL as posix_fallocate()?
> 
> yes, plain ol' fallocate(2), I think:
> 
>        #include <linux/falloc.h>
> 
>        long fallocate(int fd, int mode, loff_t offset, loff_t len);
> 
> but you need a very recent glibc to get it:
> 
> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=7083#c1
> 
> it'd be great if we could get that into F11...
> 
> BTW, ext4, xfs, btrfs, and ocfs2 all support ->fallocate.

Shouldn't we getting the new glibc and file RFE's against RPM, the
torrent clients etc?

Rahul



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr  2 22:23:52 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 03:53:52 +0530
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>
	<49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49D53AF8.2070702@fedoraproject.org>

psmith wrote:

> but sometimes both of those don't work, as i've recently found out with
> both the i686 gnome and xfce live f11 beta iso's, livecd-iso-to-disk nor
> liveusb-creator create working usb images, though this may be the iso's
> themselves that are the problem as previous versions worked with f9 and
> f10 iso's :-/

Did you get the syslinux from rawhide before running the script? If not,
you might want to do yum --enablerepo=rawhide update syslinux and retry.

Rahul



From sandeen at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 22:35:06 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:35:06 -0500
Subject: an interface for filesystem preallocation that doesn't suck?
In-Reply-To: <49D53A97.60402@fedoraproject.org>
References: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>	<49D5356F.6030909@redhat.com>
	<49D53A97.60402@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49D53D9A.7060908@redhat.com>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Eric Sandeen wrote:
>> James Ralston wrote:
>>
>>> If the latter, is there an interface for fallocate() that doesn't have
>>> quite as much FAIL as posix_fallocate()?
>> yes, plain ol' fallocate(2), I think:
>>
>>        #include <linux/falloc.h>
>>
>>        long fallocate(int fd, int mode, loff_t offset, loff_t len);
>>
>> but you need a very recent glibc to get it:
>>
>> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=7083#c1
>>
>> it'd be great if we could get that into F11...
>>
>> BTW, ext4, xfs, btrfs, and ocfs2 all support ->fallocate.
> 
> Shouldn't we getting the new glibc and file RFE's against RPM, the
> torrent clients etc?

Ah, just checked and it's already in our rawhide glibc, yay :)  didn't
realize that.

http://sandeen.fedorapeople.org/utilities/fallocate.c

is a simple tool to exercise it, FWIW.

One caveat:  ext4 doesn't always coalesce extents, so preallocating for,
say, bittorent won't necessarily get ext4 down to tracking a single
extent; in my testing it can still have thousands of extents tracked by
the filesystem even if they are adjacent/contiguous.  :(  I hope to fix
that.  It's still worth doing though; a thousand adjacent extents is
better than a thousand discontiguous extents.

-Eric



From sandeen at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 22:37:00 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:37:00 -0500
Subject: an interface for filesystem preallocation that doesn't suck?
In-Reply-To: <49D53D9A.7060908@redhat.com>
References: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>	<49D5356F.6030909@redhat.com>	<49D53A97.60402@fedoraproject.org>
	<49D53D9A.7060908@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D53E0C.10505@redhat.com>

Eric Sandeen wrote:
> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> Eric Sandeen wrote:
>>> James Ralston wrote:
>>>
>>>> If the latter, is there an interface for fallocate() that doesn't have
>>>> quite as much FAIL as posix_fallocate()?
>>> yes, plain ol' fallocate(2), I think:
>>>
>>>        #include <linux/falloc.h>
>>>
>>>        long fallocate(int fd, int mode, loff_t offset, loff_t len);
>>>
>>> but you need a very recent glibc to get it:
>>>
>>> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=7083#c1
>>>
>>> it'd be great if we could get that into F11...
>>>
>>> BTW, ext4, xfs, btrfs, and ocfs2 all support ->fallocate.
>> Shouldn't we getting the new glibc and file RFE's against RPM, the
>> torrent clients etc?
> 
> Ah, just checked and it's already in our rawhide glibc, yay :)  didn't
> realize that.
> 
> http://sandeen.fedorapeople.org/utilities/fallocate.c
> 
> is a simple tool to exercise it, FWIW.

oh and (sorry for the spam)

http://sandeen.fedorapeople.org/utilities/fiemap-test-new.c

is a tool which can help show you the resulting file layout.

It needs fiemap.h which only recently started getting packaged up in
kernel-headers.

-Eric



From qralston+ml.redhat-fedora-devel at andrew.cmu.edu  Thu Apr  2 22:37:59 2009
From: qralston+ml.redhat-fedora-devel at andrew.cmu.edu (James Ralston)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 18:37:59 -0400
Subject: an interface for filesystem preallocation that doesn't suck?
In-Reply-To: <49D5356F.6030909@redhat.com> <49D53A97.60402@fedoraproject.org>
References: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>
	<49D5356F.6030909@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <7D392716F0C46381C94DF6A2@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>

On 2009-04-02 at 17:00-0500 Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com> wrote:

> James Ralston wrote:
> 
> > [I]s there an interface for fallocate() that doesn't have quite as
> > much FAIL as posix_fallocate()?
> 
> yes, plain ol' fallocate(2), I think:
> 
>        #include <linux/falloc.h>
> 
>        long fallocate(int fd, int mode, loff_t offset, loff_t len);
> 
> but you need a very recent glibc to get it:
> 
> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=7083#c1

Ah, that's the ticket (no pun intended).

> it'd be great if we could get that into F11...

The rawhide glibc has it, but I'm not sure if it made the cut for the
beta.  I'll test later.

> BTW, ext4, xfs, btrfs, and ocfs2 all support ->fallocate.

Yup.

On 2009-04-03 at 03:52+0530 Rahul Sundaram <sundaram at fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Shouldn't we getting the new glibc and file RFE's against RPM, the
> torrent clients etc?

I intend to start filing bugs against anything I can find that doesn't
use fallocate(), yes.  But I needed a better implementation to suggest
than posix_fallocate().

James



From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 22:39:38 2009
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 03:39:38 +0500
Subject: install guide draft
Message-ID: <78323d480904021539s1fed565dl6fae8e0752963212@mail.gmail.com>

I had a look at some parts of

http://rlandmann.fedorapeople.org/Installation Guide/en-US/html

"7.22.4. SMP Motherboards and GRUB
In previous versions of Fedora there were two different kernel
versions, a uniprocessor version and an SMP version. In Fedora 11 the
kernel is SMP-enabled by default and will take advantage of multiple
core, hyperthreading, and multiple CPU capabilities when they are
present. This same kernel can run on single CPUs with a single core
and no hyperthreading. "


This is being repeated since FC-4-6?

"Swap should equal 2x physical RAM for up to 2 GB of physical RAM, and
then an additional 1x physical RAM for any amount above 2 GB, but
never less than 32 MB.
So, if:
M = Amount of RAM in GB, and S = Amount of swap in GB, then

If M < 2
	S = M *2
Else
	S = M + 2"

Using this formula, a system with 2 GB of physical RAM would have 4 GB
of swap, while one with 3 GB of physical RAM would have 5 GB of swap.
Creating a large swap space partition can be especially helpful if you
plan to upgrade your RAM at a later time.
For systems with really large amounts of RAM (more than 32 GB) you can
likely get away with a smaller swap partition (around 1x, or less, of
physical RAM)."


The formula is not correct. Or is this the result of some special study?

I think, S= min{3, 2*M} is best for most desktop users
For most servers it should be around Max(5, M/5).

Sys admins should determine the actual requirement for servers and
scientific computing.

There are some recommendations here: http://www.linux.com/feature/121916


Best

A. Mani


-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc



From sandeen at redhat.com  Thu Apr  2 22:44:07 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:44:07 -0500
Subject: an interface for filesystem preallocation that doesn't suck?
In-Reply-To: <7D392716F0C46381C94DF6A2@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>
References: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>	<49D5356F.6030909@redhat.com>
	<7D392716F0C46381C94DF6A2@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <49D53FB7.5020401@redhat.com>

James Ralston wrote:

> I intend to start filing bugs against anything I can find that doesn't
> use fallocate(), yes.  But I needed a better implementation to suggest
> than posix_fallocate().

Cool.  Feel free to cc: me on them?

FWIW transmission already can do it though it requires some
undocumented(?) configuration.

It also gives you the choice of posix_fallocate(), or not.   It'd be
nice if you could say "fallocate if you've got it; but no
posix_fallocate, thanks"

-Eric



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr  2 22:55:20 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 04:25:20 +0530
Subject: an interface for filesystem preallocation that doesn't suck?
In-Reply-To: <49D53E0C.10505@redhat.com>
References: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>	<49D5356F.6030909@redhat.com>	<49D53A97.60402@fedoraproject.org>	<49D53D9A.7060908@redhat.com>
	<49D53E0C.10505@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D54258.1090309@fedoraproject.org>

Eric Sandeen wrote:

> 
> http://sandeen.fedorapeople.org/utilities/fiemap-test-new.c
> 
> is a tool which can help show you the resulting file layout.
> 
> It needs fiemap.h which only recently started getting packaged up in
> kernel-headers.

Thanks Eric. That's very helpful.

Rahul



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  2 23:05:06 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 00:05:06 +0100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <49D53AF8.2070702@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>	<49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>
	<49D53AF8.2070702@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49D544A2.6080103@googlemail.com>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> psmith wrote:
>
>   
>> but sometimes both of those don't work, as i've recently found out with
>> both the i686 gnome and xfce live f11 beta iso's, livecd-iso-to-disk nor
>> liveusb-creator create working usb images, though this may be the iso's
>> themselves that are the problem as previous versions worked with f9 and
>> f10 iso's :-/
>>     
>
> Did you get the syslinux from rawhide before running the script? If not,
> you might want to do yum --enablerepo=rawhide update syslinux and retry.
>
> Rahul
>
>   
thanks rahul but i've tried that, even tried using the windoze version 
of liveusb-creator to make the usb to get past that issue, also tried 
selinux=0 on boot line as well as nomodeset, nothing is working on any 
of the three machines here at home, do you any other suggestions that i 
might try? as i'm completely stuck :-(



From jreiser at BitWagon.com  Fri Apr  3 00:30:32 2009
From: jreiser at BitWagon.com (John Reiser)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:30:32 -0700
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
Message-ID: <49D558A8.60601@BitWagon.com>

Christoph H?ger wrote:

> ... Using an USB image is the most non-invasive and
> cheapest way, to run those tests. ...

But only if it can be booted in the first place.  I have two machines
that can use USB, but whose BIOS cannot boot from USB.  The machines
are older but still healthy and capable.  They generate bugs because
developers (kernel, X11) tend to slight such hardware unnecessarily.
So please make explicit the recipe for booting the kernel from CD but
switching as soon as possible to USB root, and freeing the CD drive
for use by the running system.

-- 



From rodd at clarkson.id.au  Fri Apr  3 02:27:33 2009
From: rodd at clarkson.id.au (Rodd Clarkson)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 13:27:33 +1100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <49D544A2.6080103@googlemail.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>	<49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>
	<49D53AF8.2070702@fedoraproject.org> <49D544A2.6080103@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <1238725654.3991.29.camel@moose>

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 00:05 +0100, psmith wrote:
> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > psmith wrote:
> >
> >   
> >> but sometimes both of those don't work, as i've recently found out with
> >> both the i686 gnome and xfce live f11 beta iso's, livecd-iso-to-disk nor
> >> liveusb-creator create working usb images, though this may be the iso's
> >> themselves that are the problem as previous versions worked with f9 and
> >> f10 iso's :-/
> >>     
> >
> > Did you get the syslinux from rawhide before running the script? If not,
> > you might want to do yum --enablerepo=rawhide update syslinux and retry.
> >
> > Rahul
> >
> >   
> thanks rahul but i've tried that, even tried using the windoze version 
> of liveusb-creator to make the usb to get past that issue, also tried 
> selinux=0 on boot line as well as nomodeset, nothing is working on any 
> of the three machines here at home, do you any other suggestions that i 
> might try? as i'm completely stuck :-(

psmith

does the usb stick(s) have spaces in the volume name?

By this I mean, when you look at the mount name in computer, are there
spaces in the name for the device that appears?

If so, try this:

1. edit /etc/mtools.conf to create a drive for the device.  For example,
when I plug a USB key into my laptop it appears as /dev/sdb1, so in
mtools.conf I have a line:

drive f: file="/dev/sdb1"

2. at a terminal prompt run:

$ mlabel <drive letter>:<new_label>

eg. I ran: mlabel f:4GB_USB

Make sure there are no spaces in the 'new_label' name.

Then try again.


R.




-- 
"It's a fine line between denial and faith.
 It's much better on my side"



From rodd at clarkson.id.au  Fri Apr  3 02:39:18 2009
From: rodd at clarkson.id.au (Rodd Clarkson)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 13:39:18 +1100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
Message-ID: <1238726358.3991.41.camel@moose>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 22:47 +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, den 02.04.2009, 11:11 -0700 schrieb Adam Williamson:
> > On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 17:00 +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> > 
> > > a) we should _always_ have USB images ready. That should lower the
> > > testing costs to zero.
> > 
> > Well, we don't provide USB images for releases on the basis it's a waste
> > of space and bandwidth since you can simply convert them with the
> > script. I don't see why that reasoning doesn't hold for test days.
> 
> I disagree on that: Using an USB image is the most non-invasive and
> cheapest way, to run those tests. They allow modifying something and
> rebooting, which is a real advantage in test cases IMO. 
> Also USB devices are common nowadays - tools to convert cd images to usb
> media are not (not every possible tester runs fedora yet).
> If we really care about that little extra space we should provide USB
> images and show how to convert them to cd/dvd images.

A couple of observations:

It seems to me it would be much more sensible to spend time making the
tools to convert CD/DVD's to LiveUSBs than to respin existing media in a
new (and apparently more complicated) way.

It would be great is fedora went so far as to provide builds for the
various common Linux platforms, along with Windows, MacOSX, BSD and
whatever else.

Also,

Is it possible to supply LiveCD's that are smaller in size?  If I'm
testing the graphics card for example, I don't really need an email
client (and probably masses of other software on the disk).  How hard is
it to just provide the necessities (another discussion I'm sure).


R.

-- 
"It's a fine line between denial and faith.
 It's much better on my side"




From fkautz at pseudocode.cc  Fri Apr  3 03:01:17 2009
From: fkautz at pseudocode.cc (Frederick Kautz)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 21:01:17 -0600
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238726358.3991.41.camel@moose>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238726358.3991.41.camel@moose>
Message-ID: <7922d2020904022001ue568d92yc4d42584771627aa@mail.gmail.com>

> It seems to me it would be much more sensible to spend time making the
> tools to convert CD/DVD's to LiveUSBs than to respin existing media in a
> new (and apparently more complicated) way.

Ubuntu takes this approach for creating a LiveUSB. They wrote a
program that takes a source ISO, copies it to USB, and makes it
bootable. A copy on write mechanism stores persistent changes (works
with LiveCD as well). Perhaps a similar model can be used for Fedora
development and testing. The copy on write mechanism would make it
easy to make changes, and revert to the original system. If your older
computer doesn't support booting from USB, you could boot from CD and
store the persistent changes to the USB while you test it.
--
Frederick F. Kautz IV



From jwilliam at xmission.com  Fri Apr  3 05:16:10 2009
From: jwilliam at xmission.com (Jerry Williams)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 23:16:10 -0600
Subject: F11 Beta How many times do you want to test your media?
In-Reply-To: <49D544A2.6080103@googlemail.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>	<49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com><49D53AF8.2070702@fedoraproject.org>
	<49D544A2.6080103@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <9A1C2701913546339F8F922F184D54A4@Q9450>

Why is the default to test the media?
I think the default should be skip.
Even better would be to move the option to test the media to the boot menu,
kind of like the Live CD.
It is nice to be able to test the media, but I don't think it should be the
default.

Jerry Williams




From rodd at clarkson.id.au  Fri Apr  3 05:49:16 2009
From: rodd at clarkson.id.au (Rodd Clarkson)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:49:16 +1100
Subject: F11 Beta How many times do you want to test your media?
In-Reply-To: <9A1C2701913546339F8F922F184D54A4@Q9450>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>	<49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>
	<49D53AF8.2070702@fedoraproject.org> <49D544A2.6080103@googlemail.com>
	<9A1C2701913546339F8F922F184D54A4@Q9450>
Message-ID: <1238737756.3991.46.camel@moose>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 23:16 -0600, Jerry Williams wrote:
> Why is the default to test the media?
> I think the default should be skip.
> Even better would be to move the option to test the media to the boot menu,
> kind of like the Live CD.
> It is nice to be able to test the media, but I don't think it should be the
> default.

Jerry,

It's not good form to hijack a thread for different discussion.

If you want to ask a question, start with a new email (clicking on the
email addresses at the top of emails is a good way to do this) so that
people will note your comments, instead of just ignoring them (most
likely because they are ignoring the thread you've hijack.)

It's also an issue, because many people view their mail as a thread to
keep track of conversations and what you've done is started a new
conversation in the middle of someone else's.

Anyway, I imagine the default to test is because problems with CD/DVD
burns not working (for a number of reasons) is common and if you don't
encourage testing then many people file/report/discuss bugs which are
nothing more than a bad burn.

If they've had to skip the testing process, then hopefully they might go
back and retest the media before filing/reporting/discussing/complaining
that it didn't work.


R
-- 
"It's a fine line between denial and faith.
 It's much better on my side"



From nils at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 07:32:41 2009
From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 09:32:41 +0200
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <385866f0904010931m7f1e8784s6c7e6a4d62ea0bc8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49D37BBE.8020406@redhat.com>
	<81487f820904010856n1f044ff4vc55a49c542916649@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904011826.09796.jreznik@redhat.com>
	<385866f0904010931m7f1e8784s6c7e6a4d62ea0bc8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238743961.2025.3.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de>

On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 19:31 +0300, Muayyad AlSadi wrote:
> I wrote this
> Add a new tab to enable/disable useshares and control them with
> something like this
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SystemConfig/samba/review#User_shares

I think this request for enhancement is off topic for a cleanup project.
As there's a bugzilla ticket about it already, I'll remove that from the
wiki page.

Nils
-- 
Nils Philippsen      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase 
Red Hat               a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty
nils at redhat.com       nor Safety."  --  Benjamin Franklin, 1759
PGP fingerprint:      C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F  656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011



From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net  Fri Apr  3 08:20:26 2009
From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 10:20:26 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <7922d2020904022001ue568d92yc4d42584771627aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238726358.3991.41.camel@moose>
	<7922d2020904022001ue568d92yc4d42584771627aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c37148ee96c166267bb4c8550c6ae7bf.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>


IMHO it would be best to focus on making good bootable liveusb images,
and provide a barebones minimalist generic bootable ISO that could be
used to bootstrap an usb key for systems that can not boot from USB
yet.

USB key prices have fallen so much that optical media is not
interesting anymore price-wise, and they've always sucked big time for
other reasons (mechanical spin, easy to scratch, typically read only,
limited size, etc).

Ideally there would be no need to make different bootstrap isos for
all our spins, letting the spin teams forget about CD limitations
altogether.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot



From seg at haxxed.com  Fri Apr  3 08:35:39 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 03:35:39 -0500
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1238747739.3338.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 11:45 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 11:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > > c) make the test cases as automated as possible. Offer sending smolt
> > > profile (smoltGUI) and run test cases directly from the desktop. Also We
> > > should add a link (or the document itself) about how to test what and
> > > why to the desktop. If it's possible for the test generated results
> > > should also be posted automagically to the results page, or, if tests
> > > fail, bug reports could be created by bugbuddy.
> > 
> > These would all be nice, but we *are* running on a one-week cycle here,
> > it may be hard to get it all done. Assistance welcome. =) it's pretty
> > hard to automate some elements of some test cases, but some could
> > certainly be done with scripts etc.
> 
> Oh, I forgot to mention another consideration here: I'm trying to write
> these test cases to be pretty future-proof, so we could use them
> virtually unmodified for F12, F13, F14...after all, the URLs don't have
> expire-by dates and the test cases will still be hanging around in 10
> years most likely. I suspect scripts are liable to go stale faster than
> instructions.

The tests should be automated and run daily, hourly, or even before
every SCM commit. Ideally, *nothing* would be allowed to be
committed/pushed into the repo that broke the tests. That would also
provide motivation to keep the test scripts working...

All reported bugs should be turned into automated test cases if possible
and added to the test suite. This ensures once something is fixed it
never breaks, ever again. Regressions are not an option.

The lack of automated testing in the project is saddening. However a lot
of the problem is hardware. We really need a diverse hardware testing
lab. As it is, testing seems to get done on the latest shinyest hardware
of the month that the (paid) developers just bought, leaving those of us
who don't buy new hardware every month/year in a dustpile of
regressions.
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From pmatilai at laiskiainen.org  Fri Apr  3 08:51:10 2009
From: pmatilai at laiskiainen.org (Panu Matilainen)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:51:10 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Borked system after last nights rawhide update
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904020904470.19435@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090401083658.M85681@all-the-johnsons.co.uk>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904021022540.24183@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904020904470.19435@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0904031148580.19492@gotcha.dreamhost.com>

On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Seth Vidal wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Panu Matilainen wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Paul F. Johnson wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I did a big update last night from rawhide and other than the Noveau 
>>> problem
>>> with GDM which has been updated, I didn't notice any problems. Then my 
>>> system
>>> crashed...
>>> 
>>> When I rebooted inittab was missing and udev was unable to find anything 
>>> (I
>>> had loads of udev failures for finding anything within /dev).
>>> 
>>> As yet, I'm unable to get that machine to reboot and return to a desktop 
>>> (it
>>> will get through to being able to log in, but as it can't find any of the
>>> groups or users, it can't be logged in).
>>> 
>>> I can boot from a RIPLinux disc and mount the drive, so everything is 
>>> still
>>> there (which is good).
>>> 
>>> Any ideas on how to fix this problem? I've not seen any other reports on 
>>> here
>>> so far.
>> 
>> Do you have a yum.log of this system available? In bug 492947, according to 
>> yum.log "something" has *erased* half the system (including setup etc) in 
>> what appears to be a separate transaction, which will certainly end up in 
>> missing /etc/passwd and such.
>> 
>
> And did you run yum-complete-transaction after an aborted transaction where X 
> died, by any chance?

Never mind, bug found and fixed in rpm 4.7.0-0.beta1.9, details in 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492947#c36.

 	- Panu -



From mmahut at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr  3 08:59:18 2009
From: mmahut at fedoraproject.org (Marek Mahut)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 10:59:18 +0200
Subject: esasl and egssapi 
Message-ID: <49D5CFE6.2000708@fedoraproject.org>

Hi,

Any erlang fans that would like to package and maintain esasl and 
egssapi packages? I'll help with reviews.

http://www.hem.za.org/

Thanks,

-- 
Marek Mahut               https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Astronomy/
Fedora Project



From alsadi at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 09:36:41 2009
From: alsadi at gmail.com (Muayyad AlSadi)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:36:41 +0300
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <1238743961.2025.3.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de>
References: <49D37BBE.8020406@redhat.com>
	<81487f820904010856n1f044ff4vc55a49c542916649@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904011826.09796.jreznik@redhat.com>
	<385866f0904010931m7f1e8784s6c7e6a4d62ea0bc8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238743961.2025.3.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de>
Message-ID: <385866f0904030236r378e8df6t9cd42e55f4d65a6e@mail.gmail.com>

> As there's a bugzilla ticket about it already
NP.
could you please give me the bug number, I want to cc myself



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr  3 10:09:55 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Fri,  3 Apr 2009 10:09:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090403 changes
Message-ID: <20090403100955.900651F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Fri Apr  3 06:01:06 UTC 2009



From sf181257 at students.mimuw.edu.pl  Fri Apr  3 11:34:57 2009
From: sf181257 at students.mimuw.edu.pl (=?UTF-8?B?IlN0YW5pc8WCYXcgVC4gRmluZGVpc2VuIg==?=)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 13:34:57 +0200
Subject: Web of Trust (a revolution)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904021649190.1640@newtla.xelerance.com>
References: <49D495E5.5000202@students.mimuw.edu.pl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0904021649190.1640@newtla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <49D5F461.8090600@students.mimuw.edu.pl>

Paul Wouters wrote:
> X.509 and the business of selling CA signed certs is dead, long live
> DNSSEC+CERT (RFC2538). It will just take some time to die, and for browsers
> to support this.
> 
> As for the web of trust, that died a long time ago....

Dead? Why are those things dead?

STF

=======================================================================
http://eisenbits.homelinux.net/~stf/
OpenPGP: 9D25 3D89 75F1 DF1D F434  25D7 E87F A1B9 B80F 8062
=======================================================================

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From alexl at users.sourceforge.net  Fri Apr  3 11:55:04 2009
From: alexl at users.sourceforge.net (Alex Lancaster)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 04:55:04 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090403 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090403100955.900651F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	(Rawhide Report's message of "Fri\,
	3 Apr 2009 10\:09\:55 +0000 \(UTC\)")
References: <20090403100955.900651F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <rw4ox6ostj.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>

>>>>> Rawhide Report  writes:

> Compose started at Fri Apr  3 06:01:06 UTC 2009
> -- 
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list

Umm, so what's happening with the rawhide reports?  There have been 2
empty ones in a row.  Is it just that the repodiff/broken dep analyser
is not working, or have there been no new rawhide packages added?  I
know that I did one or two rebuilds for dist-f11 in that time period.

ALex



From jwboyer at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 12:12:57 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 08:12:57 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090403 changes
In-Reply-To: <rw4ox6ostj.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
References: <20090403100955.900651F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<rw4ox6ostj.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20090403121257.GA8337@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>

On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 04:55:04AM -0700, Alex Lancaster wrote:
>>>>>> Rawhide Report  writes:
>
>> Compose started at Fri Apr  3 06:01:06 UTC 2009
>> -- 
>> fedora-devel-list mailing list
>> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
>Umm, so what's happening with the rawhide reports?  There have been 2
>empty ones in a row.  Is it just that the repodiff/broken dep analyser
>is not working, or have there been no new rawhide packages added?  I
>know that I did one or two rebuilds for dist-f11 in that time period.

The pungi run for i386 is failing.  I'm going to guess that the rawhide
scripts abort once that happens and repodiff doesn't get run.  At least
the repodiff file for today's rawhide is certainly zero size.

josh



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 12:51:56 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 08:51:56 -0400
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
In-Reply-To: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com>
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238763117.18788.183.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 10:20 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> I had the fortune to attend pycon this past week and went to a talk
> about python-2.6 compatibility with python-3.
> 
> http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/74/
> 
> The slides from that are available and largely self-explanatory.  They
> list tricks for getting python code that runs on both py2.6 and py3.x.

The video of the session (and in fact all PyCon 2009 sessions) are up:

http://pycon.blip.tv/file/1949281/
http://pycon.blip.tv/

The 3to2 tool he talks about briefly also has a place on the web:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/3to2

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From jreznik at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 12:58:03 2009
From: jreznik at redhat.com (Jaroslav Reznik)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 08:58:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <1238743961.2025.3.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de>
Message-ID: <348116500.14311238763483644.JavaMail.root@zmail06.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>

----- "Nils Philippsen" <nils at redhat.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 19:31 +0300, Muayyad AlSadi wrote:
> > I wrote this
> > Add a new tab to enable/disable useshares and control them with
> > something like this
> > 
> >
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SystemConfig/samba/review#User_shares
> 
> I think this request for enhancement is off topic for a cleanup
> project.
> As there's a bugzilla ticket about it already, I'll remove that from
> the
> wiki page.

Yes, it's more feature request than cleanup request. If anyone has 
something to improve this process, any kind of contribution is 
really appreciated, from user, what you like, what you want,
patches from developers, tests from qa guys etc. ;-)

Thanks all
Jaroslav

> 
> Nils
> -- 
> Nils Philippsen      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to
> purchase 
> Red Hat               a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither
> Liberty
> nils at redhat.com       nor Safety."  --  Benjamin Franklin, 1759
> PGP fingerprint:      C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F  656D 47D8 9B65 6951
> 3011
> 
> -- 
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list



From a.badger at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 14:06:46 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:06:46 -0700
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
In-Reply-To: <1238763117.18788.183.camel@ignacio.lan>
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com>
	<1238763117.18788.183.camel@ignacio.lan>
Message-ID: <49D617F6.8050605@gmail.com>

Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 10:20 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
>> I had the fortune to attend pycon this past week and went to a talk
>> about python-2.6 compatibility with python-3.
>>
>> http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/74/
>>
>> The slides from that are available and largely self-explanatory.  They
>> list tricks for getting python code that runs on both py2.6 and py3.x.
> 
> The video of the session (and in fact all PyCon 2009 sessions) are up:
> 
Not all the sessions yet, but a good chunk have been processed and
uploaded :-)

> http://pycon.blip.tv/file/1949281/
> http://pycon.blip.tv/
> 
> The 3to2 tool he talks about briefly also has a place on the web:
> 
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/3to2
> 
> 

-Toshio

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From katzj at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 14:50:43 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 10:50:43 -0400
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>
	<49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20090403145042.GB743@redhat.com>

On Thursday, April 02 2009, psmith said:
> Jeremy Katz wrote:
>> livecd-iso-to-disk is a shell script that should run on basically any
>> Linux distro with syslinux installed (and people have sent patches to
>> fix up things, eg, for Ubuntu) and liveusb-creator works on Linux
>> platforms and Windows.
>>   
> but sometimes both of those don't work, as i've recently found out with  
> both the i686 gnome and xfce live f11 beta iso's, livecd-iso-to-disk nor  
> liveusb-creator create working usb images, though this may be the iso's  
> themselves that are the problem as previous versions worked with f9 and  
> f10 iso's :-/

Unfortunately, the syslinux com32 apis aren't considered stable, so the
menu modules were calling things not present in older syslinux being
used to install the bootloader.  I've hacked livecd-iso-to-disk to deal
with the problem as of yesterday and hopefully liveusb-creator will get
updated for it as well.

Jeremy



From katzj at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 14:53:44 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 10:53:44 -0400
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238726358.3991.41.camel@moose>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238726358.3991.41.camel@moose>
Message-ID: <20090403145343.GC743@redhat.com>

On Friday, April 03 2009, Rodd Clarkson said:
> It seems to me it would be much more sensible to spend time making the
> tools to convert CD/DVD's to LiveUSBs than to respin existing media in a
> new (and apparently more complicated) way.

Funny, we already have those tools! ;-)
 
> It would be great is fedora went so far as to provide builds for the
> various common Linux platforms, along with Windows, MacOSX, BSD and
> whatever else.

The biggest problem is that you really have to have a working syslinux
build.  These exist for Linux platforms and Windows, but I haven't found
one for OS/X.

> Also,
> 
> Is it possible to supply LiveCD's that are smaller in size?  If I'm
> testing the graphics card for example, I don't really need an email
> client (and probably masses of other software on the disk).  How hard is
> it to just provide the necessities (another discussion I'm sure).

It's possible; it's just a matter of coming up with a new image config.
That ends up being a bit more work, though, and using the "stock"
configs means that people can actually end up using them for testing
other things as well which is a nice side benefit

Jeremy



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Fri Apr  3 14:55:22 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 10:55:22 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 Release Notes
Message-ID: <708FCBA3D13D4A65AE7F26642D80F82D@Aidan>

I wanted to take a moment to thank all the folks who contributed to getting 
the release notes out.  They went to the translators last night, and I see 
they are already hard at work.

There were an awful lot of changes this release and I know it wasn't easy. 
With the switch to Publican, and the broken mw-render we had some additional 
challenges, but with everyone's help we got it done.

Once again, thank you all.

--McD



From notting at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 15:19:11 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:19:11 -0400
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090403151911.GA4192@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: 
> livecd-iso-to-disk is a shell script that should run on basically any
> Linux distro with syslinux installed (and people have sent patches to
> fix up things, eg, for Ubuntu) and liveusb-creator works on Linux
> platforms and Windows.

Do we build the Live ISOs with autorun information that will run
liveusb-creator when they're opened?

(Yes, evil.)

Bill



From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 15:40:47 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 08:40:47 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090403 changes
In-Reply-To: <rw4ox6ostj.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
References: <20090403100955.900651F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<rw4ox6ostj.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <1238773247.3865.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 04:55 -0700, Alex Lancaster wrote:
> 
> Umm, so what's happening with the rawhide reports?  There have been 2
> empty ones in a row.  Is it just that the repodiff/broken dep analyser
> is not working, or have there been no new rawhide packages added?  I
> know that I did one or two rebuilds for dist-f11 in that time period.

Investigating.  Packages are going out, but the repodiff call is failing
for some reason.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From mcepl at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 15:40:56 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 17:40:56 +0200
Subject: esasl and egssapi
References: <49D5CFE6.2000708@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <89nha6-7e9.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-03, 08:59 GMT, Marek Mahut wrote:
> Any erlang fans that would like to package and maintain esasl 
> and egssapi packages? I'll help with reviews.
>
> http://www.hem.za.org/

Please? :) I loath openfire, and this would hopefully help 
replace it with ejabberd.

Mat?j



From katzj at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 15:58:54 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:58:54 -0400
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <20090403151911.GA4192@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>
	<20090403151911.GA4192@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090403155852.GG743@redhat.com>

On Friday, April 03 2009, Bill Nottingham said:
> Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: 
> > livecd-iso-to-disk is a shell script that should run on basically any
> > Linux distro with syslinux installed (and people have sent patches to
> > fix up things, eg, for Ubuntu) and liveusb-creator works on Linux
> > platforms and Windows.
> 
> Do we build the Live ISOs with autorun information that will run
> liveusb-creator when they're opened?

I don't know how autoruns work with an iso image in Windows...  if you
burn them, then it would, but I don't know if that's normal.

Even if it did just work, we'd then need to also include the
liveusb-creator on the image which would mean a ~10MB penalty for the
already space-constrained images

Jeremy



From notting at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 16:05:33 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:05:33 -0400
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <20090403155852.GG743@redhat.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>
	<20090403151911.GA4192@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<20090403155852.GG743@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090403160533.GA4934@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: 
> On Friday, April 03 2009, Bill Nottingham said:
> > Jeremy Katz (katzj at redhat.com) said: 
> > > livecd-iso-to-disk is a shell script that should run on basically any
> > > Linux distro with syslinux installed (and people have sent patches to
> > > fix up things, eg, for Ubuntu) and liveusb-creator works on Linux
> > > platforms and Windows.
> > 
> > Do we build the Live ISOs with autorun information that will run
> > liveusb-creator when they're opened?
> 
> I don't know how autoruns work with an iso image in Windows...  if you
> burn them, then it would, but I don't know if that's normal.
> 
> Even if it did just work, we'd then need to also include the
> liveusb-creator on the image which would mean a ~10MB penalty for the
> already space-constrained images

But, if we install liveusb-creator by default in Fedora, it would just
be a tiny script for the Linux version of autorun.

Bill



From dtimms at iinet.net.au  Fri Apr  3 16:12:44 2009
From: dtimms at iinet.net.au (David Timms)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 03:12:44 +1100
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>

Debayan Banerjee wrote:
>>>>  Why do you think votes (esp. those by users) and trust are related? I
>>>> guess it's not a _terrible_ hint, but it's surely not a good one either.
>>>>  We don't do Fedora package reviews by having everyone vote, so I don't
>>>> see why we'd want to do the same thing for (expandable) sets of
>>>> packages.
>>> Well downloading and installing packages is something any user does
>>> and hence they have a right to vote for what they liked,
The user has know way of knowing whether their machine is now a botnet 
zombie - we simply can not put them at that risk. Put it this way, even 
one hacked machine is bad for a distribution's reputation.

> No. I think you are being paranoid. Bad packages can be added after
> votes, yes, and it will decrease the rankings of the repository soon.
Firstly, it it not easy to tell that a bad package has been added to a 
repository. Let's say an equivalent of openssh with a back door, and 
capability to send details of username password etc was placed in such a 
third-party repository.

If having even one rooted machine is bad, allowing/requiring "enough" 
rooted machines to know they are rooted, go to a voting page, and begin 
voting against a package / repo would take a long time to achieve 
anything, but in the mean time more and more people are getting the bad 
bits.

Having said that, forcing a positive / negative opinion to be given 
during the process of removing a package could be somewhat interesting 
eg 467 users rated package X 4/10, and kept it installed for an average 
240 days, where it was run an average 5 times per week. Distribution 
curve graphs could be more useful than an individual ranking number.

> Let ISVs, 3rd party developers package stuff and host their own
Of course, its a free world, and few people can stop any third party 
hosting what ever it likes (bad, good, stealth...voting systems).

> repositories. Ofcourse, they may be better than you. Users have the
> right to decide.
For themselves. Not by a group of anonymous someone elses (hey that's 
not a word).

> And you concern about multiple-votes and all that was obviously raised
> before too. Here was my argument:
> 
> " I was advised on the Fedora list by Patrick Barnes to use the voting
> approach. I thought it made sense since it will keep evil people
> (repositories) away
Only one package needs to be evil. And that would destroy the reputation 
of that repo forever, whether it was purposely done by the repo owner, a 
contributor, or via hacking.

> the same way wikipedia protects itself from evil people.
Captcha ? It seems bots are getting close to reliably getting through 
these in like 20% of the time they are shown (see virusbulletin site).

Interested parties on each article reviewing changes, and with the 
capability to delete changes ? So the vote system would have to have an 
admin who would be able to override the votes tracked, and bring the 
counted vote total down or up at will, who do you think should be the 
umpire ?

> Also there may be admins, like me, who shall ban a particular
> repository from the listings if it is found to be a malicious
> repository. If a repo is getting too many good votes unjustly, a lot
> of normal good people will also use it and find it to be crap and vote
> against.
Did you notice Paul Frields follow up email in fedora-announce:
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?p=1193205
See how subtle an evil doer could be; from what I read, it wouldn't have 
taken much more for this intrusion to have been a huge problem for every 
fedora user (eg passwords stolen), and yet no one would have known that 
there are any issues. And this is a site with dedicated staff running a 
large system. The risk has to be higher for smaller repos who may lack 
dedicated staff.

> If a repo is evil, there *will* be several "do not
> recommend" votes to it which will attract attention. "
I think even inter repository or distro rivalries could create voting 
influences. eg what happens to a web site that gets /.'ed, quote a few 
do not survive the increase in traffic that such reference sites cause.

>>> recommending any repository at all. Its the users recommending it to
>>> other users 
And are willing to put their name and email on that recommendation in 
public, then it is their reputation as recommender that is on the line. 
If you summarize it down to a vote by numbers only, anything can be done:
- false vote up a bad repo / package
- false vote down a perfect repo !

Have a look at sourceforge rankings - if you wanted to publicize your 
oss, wouldn't you do anything to enhance your rankings, by understanding 
how they are calculated, and attemping to push your name up the list ?

However, this shouldn't stop you from trying to rephrase the problem, 
step back, and look at the bigger picture, without getting into details 
like voting.

I think it would be worthwhile having an enhancement that stores 
multiple keywords about specific software, so that you can search for 
software like "digital tv viewer usb", or "microsoft word document 
converter" and get a list of well described programs, with pretty icons, 
links to home page, whether the site has an ssl identity and so forth.

It would have to be tricky to have an open source voting system that a 
bad guy couldn't use the source code of to intricately understand how 
they can trick the system.

DaveT.



From cdahlin at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 16:35:50 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 12:35:50 -0400
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <1238682423.4115.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49CD379D.8040104@verizon.net>
	<1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>	<gqr9qk$mk3$1@ger.gmane.org>	<faa16b610903301337i7cd94e4dr61c995c084231a37@mail.gmail.com>	<gqraro$rqj$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1238508985.5005.1378.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<faa16b610903310751n8aa8be0ib8ee3c1831aae932@mail.gmail.com>	<1238514493.5005.1419.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49D44A43.9000507@redhat.com>
	<1238682423.4115.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D63AE6.7050103@redhat.com>

Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 01:16 -0400, Casey Dahlin wrote:
> 
>> If X simply knew it was in an inconsistent state, could it initiate
>> recovery from there? It'd be nice if we could have a simple
>> /usr/bin/xreconfig so we could add this to the "easy fix from vt" cases.
> 
> Ngggh.
> 
> xrandr --auto would get you most of the way there, except, if you're
> vt-switched away from X, then it can't actually do the hardware probe
> again, because it doesn't own the hardware.  You could do something like
> (chvt 7; sleep 5; xrandr --auto) &, along with all the requisite
> DISPLAY= and XAUTHORITY= and maybe that would help?
> 
> - ajax
> 

You could probably replace the chvt 7; sleep 5 with something that would simply wait for X's vt to become active again (new code). Then there'd be the matter of getting the environment.

My first thought was to simply have a command that would set a flag inside of X, and then have x respond as if the user had done xrandr --auto the next time the vt became active.

Its definitely not /pretty/ to do any way I can think of, and I'm not sure the benefit outweighs the ugly when I step back and look at it.

--CJD



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 16:37:12 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 17:37:12 +0100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <20090403145343.GC743@redhat.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238726358.3991.41.camel@moose> <20090403145343.GC743@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904030937k77ef85ccm3c74683895173a9b@mail.gmail.com>

>> It seems to me it would be much more sensible to spend time making the
>> tools to convert CD/DVD's to LiveUSBs than to respin existing media in a
>> new (and apparently more complicated) way.
>
> Funny, we already have those tools! ;-)
>
>> It would be great is fedora went so far as to provide builds for the
>> various common Linux platforms, along with Windows, MacOSX, BSD and
>> whatever else.
>
> The biggest problem is that you really have to have a working syslinux
> build. ?These exist for Linux platforms and Windows, but I haven't found
> one for OS/X.

What about supplying a VM image of some sort. Something like a vmware
image can be run on most platforms with free tools (vmware player etc)
and most other Virtualisation tools can convert from vmware images.

Peter



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 16:38:46 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 17:38:46 +0100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <20090403155852.GG743@redhat.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>
	<20090403151911.GA4192@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<20090403155852.GG743@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904030938g5265b9dcyab38324cde5c3827@mail.gmail.com>

>> > livecd-iso-to-disk is a shell script that should run on basically any
>> > Linux distro with syslinux installed (and people have sent patches to
>> > fix up things, eg, for Ubuntu) and liveusb-creator works on Linux
>> > platforms and Windows.
>>
>> Do we build the Live ISOs with autorun information that will run
>> liveusb-creator when they're opened?

Out of the box windows XP at least doesn't support isos and autorun.

Peter



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr  3 16:39:48 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Fri,  3 Apr 2009 16:39:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090403 changes
Message-ID: <20090403163948.A3DC61B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Fri Apr  3 06:01:06 UTC 2009

New package geanyvc
        Version Controler plugin for geany
New package ibus-table-wubi
        Wubi input methods for ibus-table
New package oflb-goudy-bookletter-1911-fonts
        Clean serif font based on Kennerly Old Style
Updated Packages:

PackageKit-0.4.6-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 0.4.6-2
- Fix installing local files with a unicode path. Fixes rh#486720
- Fix the allow cancel duplicate filtering with a patch from upstream.


anaconda-11.5.0.40-1
--------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 11.5.0.40-1
- Don't let device names affect action order in general case. (dlehman)
- Round up when aligning to pesize for space used. (#493656) (dlehman)
- Improve handling for various nodev filesystems in fstab. (#493685,
  - Present the correct max lv size in the dialog. (dlehman)
- Use the head of the current branch, not master, for scratch archives.
  (dlehman)
- Make a top level StorageError that all others are based on. (dlehman)
- Remove unused PRePDevice class. (dlehman)
- Make the disk model an attribute of DiskDevice. (dlehman)
- Handle format actions in cancelAction() (dcantrell)
- Fix format check box for pre-existing partitions (#491675) (dcantrell)
- Remove temporary directory used in _getExistingSize() (dcantrell)
- Activate storage before looking up the hdiso source drive (#491781).
  (clumens)
- Remove isys.getDeviceByToken since it is no longer used. (clumens)
- Don't allow the rootfs on live installs to not match (#493206, #492727)
  (katzj)
- Create setup and teardown functs for dmraid devs. (jgranado)
- put xfs back where it belongs (sandeen)
- Fix up the other caller of unmountCD to pass in a device (#493537).
  (clumens)

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Chris Lumens <clumens at redhat.com> - 11.5.0.39-1
- Prevent sensitive information in kickstart files from ending up in
  tracebacks. (clumens)
- It's 2009, let's ignore floppy drives now (#493338, #493377). (clumens)
- Remove DmRaidArrayDevice level attribute (#493293) (hdegoede)
- get_containing_device takes two arguments (#493266). (clumens)
- Fix the check for if there's enough space available on / and /usr
  (#492614). (clumens)
- Fix testing if a PPC partition is bootable (#492726). (clumens)
- Look for a PReP "partition" by examining the format, not the flags
  (#492426). (clumens)
- Fix a few more pylint warnings and errors in storage/* (hdegoede)
- Fix some pylint warnings in iw/*.py (hdegoede)
- Don't start our audit daemon with the livecd installer (katzj)
- If there's a problem finding removable disks, disable save-to-disk.
  (clumens)
- Move %pre processing to much earlier in the install process. (clumens)
- If there are no installs to rescue via kickstart, display an error.
  (clumens)
- Add an early kickstart processing pass. (clumens)
- Fixes of errors shown by pylint that didn't get into the beta build.
  (mgracik)
- Adjust the dmraid ignoring logic. (jgranado)
- Reference the format by type, not name.(#492596) (jgranado)
- Sending translation for Chinese (Simplified) (leahliu)
- Increase udev_settle timeout in udev_get_block_devices. (#492049) (dlehman)
- Fix check for fully defined md array when raidlevel is 0. (#491796)
  (dlehman)
- Fix a typo ('isEFI' should be 'isEfi'). (dlehman)
- Make sure the pvs are set up before doing lvremove or vgremove. (dlehman)
- Don't write out md member devices to a config file for assemble. (dlehman)
- Fix the supported property of filesystems and prepboot format. (dlehman)
- Return early from doAutoPartition if partition allocation fails. (dlehman)
- Reset storage instance if autopart fails. (#492158) (dlehman)
- Assign weights to partition requests when doing manual or kickstart
  installs. (clumens)
- Refresh windows immediately to make sure they appear. (clumens)
- Fix problem with format and migrate combo box activation. (dcantrell)
- Fix typo in upgrade.py (dcantrell)
- Move _scheduleLVs and growLVM calls to be inside try/except (dcantrell)
- Correct bounds checking problems in 'Shrink current system' (dcantrell)
- Require libselinux-python (#489107) (dcantrell)
- Do not prompt for NIC selection in cmdline mode (#492586) (dcantrell)
- Do not write /etc/hosts since setup owns that now (#491808) (dcantrell)
- Remove unused self._resize variable. (dcantrell)
- Having 2 raidsets in the same group of devs is possible. (jgranado)
- getDevice returns a string.  Use that to look up the device object
  (#492465). (clumens)
- Take into account i386->i586 when warning on upgrade arch mismatch.
  (clumens)
- Remove unused getVG{Free,Used}Space methods. (clumens)
- We can no longer display Russian correctly in text mode (#491394).
  (clumens)
- Clean up the reinitialize LVM warning message (#491888). (clumens)
- Update translation files (#484784). (clumens)
- Include the storage directory when building the .po files. (clumens)
- Merge commit 'origin/anaconda-storage-branch' (clumens)
- Keep VG size property non-negative (rvykydal)
- Grow LVs for kickstart requests too (rvykydal)
- Handle not finding the upgrade root gracefully. (jgranado)
- Use self.name to report that we could not eject cd. (jgranado)
- Fix ppoll() timeout=infinity usage in auditd (#484721). (pjones)
- Use correct parse method for the upgrade command (#471232) (wwoods)
- Rename /etc/modprobe.d/anaconda to /etc/modprobe.d/anaconda.conf (clumens)
- Handle FTP servers that both want and don't want PASS after USER
  (#490350). (clumens)
- Only select the Core group in text mode (#488754). (clumens)
- Add created user to default group created for the user. (rvykydal)


authconfig-5.4.8-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Tomas Mraz <tmraz at redhat.com> - 5.4.8-1
- fix regression in authconfig-tui (#493576)


cups-1.4-0.b2.13.fc11
---------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Tim Waugh <twaugh at redhat.com> 1:1.4-0.b2.13
- Don't verify MD5 sum, file size, or mtime for several config files:
  cupsd.conf, client.conf, classes.conf, printers.conf, snmp.conf,
  subscriptions.conf, lpoptions (bug #486287).


cyrus-imapd-2.3.14-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Michal Hlavinka <mhlavink at redhat.com> - 2.3.14-1
- updated to 2.3.14


dhcp-4.1.0-14.fc11
------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 12:4.1.0-14
- Obsolete libdhcp and libdhcp-devel (#493547)


dhcpv6-1.2.0-1.fc11
-------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 1.2.0-1
- Upgrade to dhcpv6-1.2.0
- Client, server, and relay daemon write PID files (#491371)
- Obsolete libdhcp and libdhcp-devel packages (#493547)


eclipse-3.4.2-7.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Andrew Overholt <overholt at redhat.com> 1:3.4.2-7
- Add patch from upstream to work with XULRunner 1.9.1.
- Red Hat bugzilla #483832 (and its duplicates).

* Mon Mar 30 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> 1:3.4.2-6
- base sparcv9 and sparc on ppc


evolution-2.26.0-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2.fc11
- Require libpst.


fedora-ds-1.1.3-1.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> 1.1.3-1
- this is the 1.1.3 release


fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> - 1.1.7-1
- this is the 1.1.7 release
- added man pages for setup, migration, remove commands
- better error handling for command line utilities
- fixed remove from console
- added remove-ds-admin.pl
- added pre and post sections in order to preserve the permissions and ownerships
- CVS tag FedoraDirSrvAdmin_1_1_7_RC1 FedoraDirSrvAdmin_1_1_7_RC1_20090331


fedora-ds-base-1.2.0-2.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> - 1.2.0-2
- exclude ppc builds - needs extensive porting work

* Mon Mar 30 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> - 1.2.0-1
- new release 1.2.0
- Made devel package depend on mozldap-devel
- only create run dir if it does not exist
- CVS tag: FedoraDirSvr_1_2_0_RC1 FedoraDirSvr_1_2_0_RC1_20090330


fedora-ds-dsgw-1.1.2-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> - 1.1.2-1
- this is the 1.1.2 release


filezilla-3.2.3.1-1.fc11.1
--------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 kwizart < kwizart at gmail.com > - 3.2.3.1-1
- Update to 3.2.3.1 stable


fontforge-20090224-2.fc11
-------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Kevin Fenzi <kevin at tummy.com> - 20090224-2
- Apply patch for python modules loading (fixes #489109)
- use install -p to fix multiarch issue (fixes #480685)


geany-0.16-2.fc11
-----------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Jonathan G. Underwood <jonathan.underwood at gmail.com> - 0.16-2
- Add Requires for pkgconfig to geany-devel subpackage (BZ 493566)


ggz-base-libs-0.99.5-4.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 0.99.5-4
- own %{_sysconfdir}/ggz.modules.d
- kill rpaths (again)


ghdl-0.27-0.110svn.6.fc11
-------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Thomas Sailer <t.sailer at alumni.ethz.ch> - 0.27-0.110svn.6
- actually add the patch

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Thomas Sailer <t.sailer at alumni.ethz.ch> - 0.27-0.110svn.5
- make ieee.math_real more standards compliant


gnome-games-2.26.0-2.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.0-2
- Add a workaround for sudoku crashing on certain saved games (#492962)


gnome-keyring-2.26.0-2.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Fix a nasty bug that's been fixed upstream where gnome-keyring-daemon
  would hang when re-allocating from a pool of secure memory.


gnome-vfs2-2.24.1-2.fc11
------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Tomas Bzatek <tbzatek at redhat.com> - 2.24.1-2
- Rebuilt to solve multilib issues (#492926)


gsynaptics-0.9.16-1.fc11
------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> - 0.9.14-5
- gsynaptics-0.9.14-scrolling-checkboxes.patch: set checkboxes based on the
  scrolling enabled/disabled property, not on the delta.
- gsynaptics-0.9.14-driver-header.patch: use the driver's header file instead
  of a custom synshm.h.
- Require xorg-x11-drv-synaptics now that we use the driver header, and force
  an autoreconf to include it properly.
- gsynaptics-0.9.14-fix-scrolling-checkboxes.patch: fix scrolling
  enabled/disabled checkboxes
- gsynaptics-0.9.14-scrollmethod.patch: provide radiobuttons instead
  of a checkbox for scrolling methods.

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> - 0.9.14-6
- gsynaptics-0.9.14-tapping-gconf.patch: set a gconf key when tapping is
  enabled or disabled.

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> - 0.9.16-1
- rebase to 0.9.16


gvfs-1.2.1-1.fc11
-----------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1.2.1-1
- Update to 1.2.1


ibus-anthy-1.1.0.20090402-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Huang Peng <shawn.p.huang at gmail.com> - 1.1.0.20090402-1
- Update to 1.1.0.20090402.
- Fix bug 490747 - Muhenkan (no-conversion) key does not undo conversion
- Fix bug 490750 - Henkan key for candidate conversion doesn't do anything
- Fix bug 490748 - Kana key doesn't do anything


ibus-chewing-1.0.6.20090403-1.fc11
----------------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Ding-Yi Chen <dchen at redhat.com> - 1.0.6.20090403-1
- Fix iBus Google issue 326: Fail to build with CMake < 2.6.3
- DateFormate.cmake is merged to BasicMacros.cmake
- See headers of cmake modules in cmake_modules/ for detailed changed.
- Add a make target "version_check" 
- Add a make developer target "new_version"  which are hidden for ordinary users.


initscripts-8.93-1
------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> - 8.93-1
- rc.sysinit: add a disk synchronization point with scsi_wait_scan post-udev (#481470)
- netfs: drop smbfs support, we don't even ship the module or tools any more
- setsysfont: honor LC_CTYPE (#487133, <skasal at redhat.com>)
- prefdm: do fallbacks based on provides of 'service(graphical-login)' (#485751)
- rc.sysinit: handle multiple IP addresses without choking in the stateless code (#443945)
- rc.sysinit: catch the right error code from checking for passphrases (#483269, <vladis.kletnieks at vt.edu>)
- prefdm: handle empty /etc/sysconfig/desktop correctly (#480113)
- ifup-ipsec: allow use of either ESP only or AH only (#251494, <stijn.tintel at x-tend.be>)
- ifup-eth: allow passing of arguments to dhcp6c (#437949, <pekkas at netcore.fi>)
- ifup-eth: fix dhcpv6 when there is no IPv4 configuration (#486507)
- ifup-ppp: avoid spurious SIGCHLD to pppd (#448881)
- ifup-eth: add support for creating TUN/TAP devices on the fly (#453973, <scott at zahna.com>)
- stop plymouth when starting single-user mode. (#491062)
- add plymouth shutdown script (#473237, <jmccann at redhat.com>)
- fix lang.sh/lang.sh/consoletype for execution with '-e'
- ifdown-eth: remove arp_ip_target on ifdown for bonding devices. (#483711)
- add vlan support for s390 HSI interfaces. (#490584)
- ipcalc: support IPv6 (#464268, <dcantrell at redhat.com>)
- translation updates: all


java-1.6.0-openjdk-1.6.0.0-18.b14.fc11
--------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Lillian Angel <langel at redhat.com> - 1:1.6.0-18.b14
- Added java-1.6.0-openjdk-pulsejava.patch.
- Updated release.
- Updated java-1.6.0-openjdk-lcms.patch.
- Resolves: rhbz#492367
- Resolves: rhbz#493276


jd-2.4.0-0.1.svn2761_trunk.fc11
-------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
- Update to latest trunk


kde-l10n-4.2.2-1.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdeaccessibility-4.2.2-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Mon Mar 30 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdeadmin-4.2.2-2.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 4.2.2-1
- optimize scriptlets

* Mon Mar 30 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdeartwork-4.2.2-3.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-3
- optimize scriptlets
- omit (unused) noarch hacks, use f10+ support
- -extras -> -screensavers rename
- -icons -> kdeclassic-icon-theme rename
- main pkg, Requires: -wallpapers, -sounds (upgrade path)
- -wallpapers, -sounds: drop Req: kdebase-workspace
- BR: eigen2-devel

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-2
- split wallpapers and sounds
- noarch subpackages

* Mon Mar 30 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdebase-4.2.2-2.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org. 4.2.2-2
- optimize scriptlets

* Mon Mar 30 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2

* Mon Mar 09 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.1-3
- apply patch to fix regression in konsole, layout regression affecting apps
  using the KPart


kdebase-workspace-4.2.2-2.fc11
------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-2
- optimize scriptlets
- drop upstreamed patches

* Mon Mar 30 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdebindings-4.2.2-2.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-2
- relax dep on kdepimlibs-akonadi

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdeedu-4.2.2-1.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdegames-4.2.2-3.fc11
---------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-3
- fix ggz scriptlet logic

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-2
- optimize scriptlets

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdegraphics-4.2.2-2.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 4.2.2-2
- optimize scriptlets

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdemultimedia-4.2.2-2.fc11
--------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-2
- optimize scriptlets

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdenetwork-4.2.2-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-2
- optimize scriptlets

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdepim-4.2.2-2.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-2
- optimize scriptlets

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdepimlibs-4.2.2-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-2
- -apidocs noarch (f10+)
- package %_kde4_appsdir/akonadi-kde only once


kdeplasma-addons-4.2.2-2.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-2
- optimize scriptlets

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdesdk-4.2.2-2.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-2
- optimize scriptlets

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdetoys-4.2.2-2.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 4.2.2-2
- optimize scriptlets

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


kdeutils-4.2.2-2.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 4.2.2-2
- optimize scriptlets

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2

* Sat Mar 14 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.2.1-3.1
- also build printer-applet on F9, but don't drag it in by default

* Sat Mar 14 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.2.1-3.2
- also drag in the printer-applet on F9


kernel-2.6.29.1-46.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Josef Bacik <josef at toxicpanda.com>
- linux-2.6-btrfs-fix-umount-hang.patch: fix hang on umount

* Thu Apr 02 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com>
- back-port iwlwifi rfkill while device down patches

* Thu Apr 02 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com>
- iwl3945: rely on priv->lock to protect priv access

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- Linux 2.6.29.1
- Removed upstream commit d64260d58865004c6354e024da3450fdd607ea07
  from v4l-dvb-fixes: merged in 2.6.29.1

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-46
- Enable debug builds and turn of debugging in the regular kernel.
- Remove dma-debug patches.
- Leave CONFIG_PCI_MSI_DEFAULT_ON set.


kexec-tools-2.0.0-9.fc11
------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Orion Poplawski <orion at cora.nwra.com> - 2.0.0-9
- Add BR glibc-static

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 2.0.0-8
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


ladspa-cmt-plugins-1.16-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget[dot]fedora[at]gmail[dot]com> - 1.16-1
- New upstream bugfix release


lazarus-0.9.26.2-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Joost van der Sluis <joost at cnoc.nl> 0.9.26.2-1
- Updated to version 0.9.26.2

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Joost van der Sluis <joost at cnoc.nl> 0.9.26.2-2
- Adapted Makefile patch for version 0.9.26.2


libQGLViewer-2.3.1-8.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Laurent Rineau <Laurent.Rineau__fedora at normalesup.org> - 2.3.1-8
- Add a patch, so that "-g" flags are not removed.


libatasmart-0.4-1.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.4-1
- New upstream release


libbind-6.0-1.fc11
------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Adam Tkac <atkac redhat com> 6.0-1
- update to final 6.0


libgxim-0.3.3-1.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Akira TAGOH <tagoh at redhat.com> - 0.3.3-1
- New upstream release.
  - partly including a fix of freeze issue with switching (#488877)


libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.22-4.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> 1:0.22-4
- revert to 0.22
- backport KDE 4 patch


libopensync-plugin-syncml-0.22-2.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 1:0.22-2
- BR libsoup22-devel instead of libsoup-devel
- disable -Werror so deprecation warnings from libsyncml don't break the build
- fix file list
- remove .la files

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 1:0.22-1
- Revert even further to 0.22 because of recent opensync downgrade

* Sat Mar 21 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 0.36-1
- revert to 0.36 - 0.38 is not going to build against libopensync 0.36

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.38-3
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild

* Sun Jan 18 2009 josef radinger <cheese at nosuchhost.net>
- 0.35-5
- revert back to 0.35 as i have problems with dependencies

* Sun Jan 18 2009 josef radinger <cheese at nosuchhost.net>
- 0.35-6
- and remove the later patches

* Sun Jan 18 2009 josef radinger <cheese at nosuchhost.net>
- 0.35-7
-rebuild

* Sun Jan 18 2009 josef radinger <cheese at nosuchhost.net>
- 0.38-1
- bump version as libsyncml is now on 0.50

* Sun Jan 18 2009 josef radinger <cheese at nosuchhost.net>
- 0.38-2
- rebuild

* Sat Nov 01 2008 josef radinger <cheese at nosuchhost.net>
- 0.36-2
- add cmake-patch


libselinux-2.0.79-5.fc11
------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> - 2.0.79-5
- Fix crash in python


mailman-2.1.12-4.fc11
---------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Daniel Novotny <dnovotny at redhat.com> 3:2.1.12-4
- fix bz#481446 (Recompile of mailman's config causes SElinux denials)


memtest86+-2.11-6.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Paulo Roma <roma at lcg.ufrj.br> - 2.11-6
- grub.conf will not be updated by default. The user
  will have to add and/or remove memtest86+ entries.
- No messages printed.


moodle-1.9.4-6.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 1.9.4-6
- Patch for CVE-2009-1171, BZ 493109.


mythes-de-0.20090402-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Caolan McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 0.20090402-1
- latest version


mythes-sk-0.20090402-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Caolan McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 0.20090402-1
- latest version


nautilus-2.26.1-1.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Tomas Bzatek <tbzatek at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1


nqc-3.1.6-4.fc11
----------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Rick L Vinyard Jr <rvinyard at cs.nmsu.edu> - 3.1.6-4
- Added multi-lingual doc packages and split English docs into their own package
- Added -p to udev rules file on install
- Added preserve timestamps to docs


nss-3.12.2.99.3-5.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Kai Engert <kaie at redhat.com> - 3.12.2.99.3-4
- disable execstack when building freebl

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Kai Engert <kaie at redhat.com> - 3.12.2.99.3-5
- introduce separate nss-softokn-freebl package


numpy-1.3.0-0.rc1.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> 1.3.0-0.rc1
- Update to latest upstream.


ocaml-mlgmpidl-1.1-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Alan Dunn <amdunn at gmail.com> 1.1-1
- New upstream version incorporates functional interface to Mpfr.


openoffice.org-3.1.0-9.1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 1:3.1.0-9.1
- latest milestone

* Mon Mar 30 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 1:3.1.0-8.2
- add openoffice.org-3.1.0.ooo100225.comphelper.vis.patch


osmo-0.2.4-5.fc11
-----------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 0.2.4-5
- Reenable syncml (undo Alex's changes from 0.2.4-3), libsyncml got reverted

* Thu Feb 26 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.2.4-4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


perl-CGI-Ex-2.27-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 2.27-1
- update to 2.27


perl-Catalyst-Manual-5.7020-1.fc11
----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 5.7020-1
- update to 5.7020


perl-Catalyst-Plugin-Authentication-0.10011-1.fc11
--------------------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.10011-1
- update to 0.10011

* Thu Feb 26 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.10010-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11
------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 5.71001-1
- update to 5.71001


perl-Class-Accessor-Grouped-0.08003-1.fc11
------------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.08003-1
- update to 0.08003


perl-Class-C3-0.21-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.21-1
- update to 0.21


perl-Class-C3-XS-0.11-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.11-1
- update to 0.11


perl-Class-MOP-0.79-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.79-1
- update to 0.79


perl-Date-Leapyear-1.72-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Xavier Bachelot <xavier at bachelot.org> 1.72-1
- New upstream release, under new license terms.


perl-DateTime-Format-Pg-0.16003-1.fc11
--------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.16003-1
- update to 0.16003


perl-Devel-Size-0.71-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.71-1
- update to 0.71


perl-File-ExtAttr-1.09-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 1.09-1
- update to 1.09


perl-Git-CPAN-Patch-0.1.5-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Sat Mar 28 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.1.5-1
- update to 0.1.5


perl-MRO-Compat-0.10-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.10-1
- update to 0.10


perl-Moose-0.73-1.fc11
----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.73-1
- update to 0.73


perl-MooseX-Types-0.10-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.10-1
- update to 0.10


perl-Mouse-0.19-1.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.19-1
- update to 0.19


perl-namespace-clean-0.11-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.11-1
- update to 0.11


powerpc-utils-papr-1.1.5-1.fc11
-------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Roman Rakus <rrakus at redhat.com> - 1.1.5-1
- New upstream version 1.1.5


python-pyblock-0.42-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at redhat.com> - 0.42-1
- Create assertion function to return PyErrors (jgranados)
- Do a thorough search for the Raid Sets (jgranados)
- RaidSet.level is broken atm (hansg)


python-suds-0.3.5-1.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Feb 25 2009 jortel <jortel at redhat.com> - 0.3.5-1
- Adds http caching.  Default is (1) day.
- Removed checking fc version in spec since no longer building < fc9.
- Updated makefile to roll tarball with tar.sh.
- Moved bare/wrapped determination to wsdl for document/literal.
- Refactored Transport to provide better visibility into http headers.
- Fixed Tickets: #207, #207, #209, #210, #212, #214, #215


qct-1.7-3.fc11
--------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Neal Becker <ndbecker2 at gmail.com> - 1.7-3
- Add Req qt to qt-mercurial br 439675
- Own directories qctlib... br 474615


qemu-0.10-4.fc11
----------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Glauber Costa <glommer at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-4
- Support botting gpxe roms.

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Glauber Costa <glommer at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-1
- Include debuginfo for qemu-img
- Do not require qemu-common for qemu-img
- Explicitly own each of the firmware files
- remove firmwares for ppc and sparc. They should be provided by an external package.
  Not that the packages exists for sparc in the secondary arch repo as noarch, but they
  don't automatically get into main repos. Unfortunately it's the best we can do right
  now.
- rollback a bit in time. Snapshot from avi's maint/2.6.30
  - this requires the sasl patches to come back.
  - with-patched-kernel comes back.

* Wed Apr 01 2009 Glauber Costa <glommer at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-2
- added missing patch. love for CVS.


qt-4.5.0-12.fc11
----------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.5.0-12
- fix inline asm in qatomic (de)ref (i386/x86_64), should fix Kolourpaint crash

* Mon Mar 30 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.5.0-11
- qt fails to build on ia64 (#492174)


qtgpsc-0.2.3-5.fc11
-------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 0.2.3-5
- Include "gpsdclient.h" so it actually builds with the new gpsd

* Sun Mar 29 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 0.2.3-4
- Rebuild for new gpsd


rpmreaper-0.1.6-1.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Miroslav Lichvar <mlichvar at redhat.com> 0.1.6-1
- update to 0.1.6


sahana-0.6.2.2-4.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 David Nalley <david at gnsa.us> 0.6.2.2-4
- removed -executable predicate from find so it will build on EL-5 and F-9


schroedinger-1.0.6-1.fc11
-------------------------

sqlite2-2.8.17-3.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Mar 23 2009 Alex Lancaster <alexlan[AT]fedoraproject org> - 2.8.17-3
- Add patches to build with new TCL and fix tests (#491726)
  thanks to D. Marlin.

* Wed Oct 03 2007 Alex Lancaster <alexl at users.sourceforge.net> 2.8.17-2
- Rebuild for merged Fedora


supybot-fedora-0.2.5-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Jon Stanley <jonstanley at gmail.com> - 0.2.5-1
- New upstream -.2.5


system-config-kickstart-2.7.22-1.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Chris Lumens <clumens at redhat.com> - 2.7.22-1
- Use dataList().append when adding partitions and network devices (#492100).
- Update translation files (#490018). (clumens)
- Lots of translation file udpates.


telepathy-salut-0.3.9-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 0.3.9-1
- Update to 0.3.9.


texlive-2007-42.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> - 2007-42
- avoid clashes with getline() from glibc
- increase default bibtex/jbibtex limits (#492136)


tomcat6-6.0.18-9.2.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 akurtakov <akurtakov at dhcp-lab-180.englab.brq.redhat.com> 0:6.0.18-9.2
- Add OSGi manifest for servlet-api.


totem-2.26.1-2.fc11
-------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2
- Update patch to set the PA stream volume, avoids setting the 
  volume when pulsesink isn't in a state where it has a stream
  (#488532)

* Wed Apr 01 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1


util-linux-ng-2.14.2-8.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Karel Zak <kzak at redhat.com> 2.14.2-8
- fix #490769 - %post scriptlet failed (thanks to Dan Horak)


xorg-x11-drv-nouveau-0.0.12-21.20090403git11be9a9.fc11
------------------------------------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 0.0.12-21.20090403git11be9a9
- upstream update, loads of modesetting fixes
- rh#492819, rh#492427, rh#492289, rh#492289


Summary:
Added Packages: 3
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 106
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.i586 requires libopensync.so.1
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.x86_64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	asterisk-ldap-fds-1.6.1-0.23.rc1.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-1.1.3-1.fc11.noarch requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	ipa-server-1.2.1-4.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base >= 0:1.1.3
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc requires libopensync.so.1
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	asterisk-ldap-fds-1.6.1-0.23.rc1.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ds-1.1.3-1.fc11.noarch requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-1.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	ipa-server-1.2.1-4.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base >= 0:1.1.3
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)





From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 16:42:45 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 09:42:45 -0700
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904030937k77ef85ccm3c74683895173a9b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238726358.3991.41.camel@moose> <20090403145343.GC743@redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904030937k77ef85ccm3c74683895173a9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238776965.3865.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 17:37 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
> 
> What about supplying a VM image of some sort. Something like a vmware
> image can be run on most platforms with free tools (vmware player etc)
> and most other Virtualisation tools can convert from vmware images.

Can't most vm tools boot an iso?  The Live image then would already be a
vm image.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Fri Apr  3 16:48:35 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:48:35 +0100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238725654.3991.29.camel@moose>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>	<49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>	<49D53AF8.2070702@fedoraproject.org>
	<49D544A2.6080103@googlemail.com> <1238725654.3991.29.camel@moose>
Message-ID: <49D63DE3.2000608@googlemail.com>

Rodd Clarkson wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 00:05 +0100, psmith wrote:
>   
>> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>     
>>> psmith wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> but sometimes both of those don't work, as i've recently found out with
>>>> both the i686 gnome and xfce live f11 beta iso's, livecd-iso-to-disk nor
>>>> liveusb-creator create working usb images, though this may be the iso's
>>>> themselves that are the problem as previous versions worked with f9 and
>>>> f10 iso's :-/
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> Did you get the syslinux from rawhide before running the script? If not,
>>> you might want to do yum --enablerepo=rawhide update syslinux and retry.
>>>
>>> Rahul
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>> thanks rahul but i've tried that, even tried using the windoze version 
>> of liveusb-creator to make the usb to get past that issue, also tried 
>> selinux=0 on boot line as well as nomodeset, nothing is working on any 
>> of the three machines here at home, do you any other suggestions that i 
>> might try? as i'm completely stuck :-(
>>     
>
> psmith
>
> does the usb stick(s) have spaces in the volume name?
>
> By this I mean, when you look at the mount name in computer, are there
> spaces in the name for the device that appears?
>
> If so, try this:
>
> 1. edit /etc/mtools.conf to create a drive for the device.  For example,
> when I plug a USB key into my laptop it appears as /dev/sdb1, so in
> mtools.conf I have a line:
>
> drive f: file="/dev/sdb1"
>
> 2. at a terminal prompt run:
>
> $ mlabel <drive letter>:<new_label>
>
> eg. I ran: mlabel f:4GB_USB
>
> Make sure there are no spaces in the 'new_label' name.
>
> Then try again.
>
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>   
thanks for the info rodd but still no luck :/ the usb volume was already 
named F11beta and changing the mtools.conf and re-making the live usb 
resulted in the same problems, i think there may be problems with the 
actual iso's as i'm starting to see a few bugs pop up with similar 
problems to mine, as well as the already worked out grey screen selinux 
bug. looks like i'll have to pass on testing the beta and just wait for 
preview or final :(

phil



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Fri Apr  3 16:49:41 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:49:41 +0100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <20090403145042.GB743@redhat.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>	<49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>
	<20090403145042.GB743@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D63E25.6050901@googlemail.com>

Jeremy Katz wrote:
> On Thursday, April 02 2009, psmith said:
>   
>> Jeremy Katz wrote:
>>     
>>> livecd-iso-to-disk is a shell script that should run on basically any
>>> Linux distro with syslinux installed (and people have sent patches to
>>> fix up things, eg, for Ubuntu) and liveusb-creator works on Linux
>>> platforms and Windows.
>>>   
>>>       
>> but sometimes both of those don't work, as i've recently found out with  
>> both the i686 gnome and xfce live f11 beta iso's, livecd-iso-to-disk nor  
>> liveusb-creator create working usb images, though this may be the iso's  
>> themselves that are the problem as previous versions worked with f9 and  
>> f10 iso's :-/
>>     
>
> Unfortunately, the syslinux com32 apis aren't considered stable, so the
> menu modules were calling things not present in older syslinux being
> used to install the bootloader.  I've hacked livecd-iso-to-disk to deal
> with the problem as of yesterday and hopefully liveusb-creator will get
> updated for it as well.
>
> Jeremy
>
>   
thanks for the info jeremy, is this the version of livecd-tools that's 
in rawhide now? or is it in F10 updates-testing?

phil



From katzj at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 16:55:42 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:55:42 -0400
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <49D63E25.6050901@googlemail.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>
	<49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com> <20090403145042.GB743@redhat.com>
	<49D63E25.6050901@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20090403165541.GH743@redhat.com>

On Friday, April 03 2009, psmith said:
> Jeremy Katz wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 02 2009, psmith said:
>>> Jeremy Katz wrote:
>>>> livecd-iso-to-disk is a shell script that should run on basically any
>>>> Linux distro with syslinux installed (and people have sent patches to
>>>> fix up things, eg, for Ubuntu) and liveusb-creator works on Linux
>>>> platforms and Windows.
>>>>         
>>> but sometimes both of those don't work, as i've recently found out 
>>> with  both the i686 gnome and xfce live f11 beta iso's, 
>>> livecd-iso-to-disk nor  liveusb-creator create working usb images, 
>>> though this may be the iso's  themselves that are the problem as 
>>> previous versions worked with f9 and  f10 iso's :-/
>>
>> Unfortunately, the syslinux com32 apis aren't considered stable, so the
>> menu modules were calling things not present in older syslinux being
>> used to install the bootloader.  I've hacked livecd-iso-to-disk to deal
>> with the problem as of yesterday and hopefully liveusb-creator will get
>> updated for it as well.
>>   
> thanks for the info jeremy, is this the version of livecd-tools that's  
> in rawhide now? or is it in F10 updates-testing?

It's currently only in git (or
http://katzj.fedorapeople.org/livecd-iso-to-disk.sh is almost always
currently) as I'm trying to find out if there's a better solution than
the hack I've done for now

Jeremy



From nathanael at gnat.ca  Fri Apr  3 17:17:01 2009
From: nathanael at gnat.ca (Nathanael D. Noblet)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 11:17:01 -0600
Subject: RPM Idea...
Message-ID: <49D6448D.6070906@gnat.ca>

Hello,
   With absolutely no knowledge of how complex an idea/request this is. 
But I was about to try to file a bug against a fedora package, and 
wondered, is this even *from* fedora.. where's the upstream 
bugzilla/tracker.. etc. So I wondered, how it sounds to have a field in 
the spec file with urls of bugzilla locations (in my mind even better if 
possible would be to the direct url to post a bug)

So for example in my case I'm posting a bug against mkinitrd. It would 
be great if I could do rpm -qi mkinitrd and find

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora&component=mkinitrd

The bug I'm filing wouldn't trigger or be able to use bug-buddy. You 
could also perhaps have more than one location for upstream projects 
which have their own bug tracker...

Anyway, just a thought... I realize it isn't perhaps perfect, but would 
help... Heck from there it would be simpler to tie into something like 
bug-buddy or some other method to post bugs through a 'local' gui which 
knows how to get the right info from the rpm as to where to post bugs, 
and what type of bug posting system it is...

-- 
Nathanael d. Noblet
T: 403.875.4613



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 17:51:20 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 10:51:20 -0700
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238747739.3338.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238747739.3338.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1238781080.8700.53.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 03:35 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:

> The tests should be automated and run daily, hourly, or even before
> every SCM commit. Ideally, *nothing* would be allowed to be
> committed/pushed into the repo that broke the tests. That would also
> provide motivation to keep the test scripts working...
> 
> All reported bugs should be turned into automated test cases if possible
> and added to the test suite. This ensures once something is fixed it
> never breaks, ever again. Regressions are not an option.

If you actually look at the test cases we've been doing, this is not
practical. How do you automate "you should see a smooth graphical boot
process that fades into GDM"? Or looking at the smoothness of video
playback?

I like the idea of automated testing, but a lot of stuff - especially
the really critical stuff to do with hardware - is not amenable to
automation. Or at least it would be extremely difficult.

> The lack of automated testing in the project is saddening. However a lot
> of the problem is hardware. We really need a diverse hardware testing
> lab. As it is, testing seems to get done on the latest shinyest hardware
> of the month that the (paid) developers just bought, leaving those of us
> who don't buy new hardware every month/year in a dustpile of
> regressions.

Will Woods and Jesse Keating are working very hard on automated QA
topics, but as I said, I just don't think automation can ever be the
answer for some areas.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 18:19:39 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:19:39 +0100
Subject: noarch rpm feature query/issue
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904031119y2e75354dhb158571c38e5593d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I have a query about the new noarch feature for building rpms. I have
a package called gupnp-vala which the contents there of can be noarch.
It built fine in koji as noarch so I presume it passed the rpmdiff or
what ever is run against the rpms. But it contains a pkgconfig file
which is located in /usr/lib or /usr/lib64 so pacakges built against
it (none actually in Fedora yet, but one awaiting review) fail to
build on either 32 or 64 bit platforms depending on which of the build
packages gets the lime light.

So my query is, I presume due to the pkgconfig this package shouldn't
be noarch, so there must be a bug there somewhere which caused it to
get past koji. But as its noarch AFAICT other than the location of the
pkgconfig file it seems somewhat of a waste to lose the advantage of
the noarch stuff for the sake of a pkgconfig file as I presume most
devel packages could be noarch.

Cheers,
Peter

BTW I see noarch packages are located in each of the separate arch
trees as opposed to being in a noarch dir which looks like the
advantage of the noarch in space saving isn't happening. What other
advantages does it offer?



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 18:25:10 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 20:25:10 +0200
Subject: noarch rpm feature query/issue
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904031119y2e75354dhb158571c38e5593d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5256d0b0904031119y2e75354dhb158571c38e5593d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090403202510.509f3c32@faldor.intranet>

On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:19:39 +0100, Peter wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I have a query about the new noarch feature for building rpms. I have
> a package called gupnp-vala which the contents there of can be noarch.
> It built fine in koji as noarch so I presume it passed the rpmdiff or
> what ever is run against the rpms. But it contains a pkgconfig file
> which is located in /usr/lib or /usr/lib64 so pacakges built against
> it (none actually in Fedora yet, but one awaiting review) fail to
> build on either 32 or 64 bit platforms depending on which of the build
> packages gets the lime light.
> 
> So my query is, I presume due to the pkgconfig this package shouldn't
> be noarch, so there must be a bug there somewhere which caused it to
> get past koji. But as its noarch AFAICT other than the location of the
> pkgconfig file it seems somewhat of a waste to lose the advantage of
> the noarch stuff for the sake of a pkgconfig file as I presume most
> devel packages could be noarch.

Noarch packages should install pkgconfig files into /usr/share/pkgconfig
not /usr/lib/pkgconfig and not %_libdir/pkgconfig either.

HTH



From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 18:26:58 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 11:26:58 -0700
Subject: noarch rpm feature query/issue
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904031119y2e75354dhb158571c38e5593d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5256d0b0904031119y2e75354dhb158571c38e5593d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238783218.3865.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 19:19 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
> BTW I see noarch packages are located in each of the separate arch
> trees as opposed to being in a noarch dir which looks like the
> advantage of the noarch in space saving isn't happening. What other
> advantages does it offer?

When the same package is in multiple trees, we use hardlinks to reduce
the on-disk space usage.  Noarch packages can still have Exclusive or
ExcludeArch flags so a unified noarch repo is not very possible.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From mikeb at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 18:30:35 2009
From: mikeb at redhat.com (Mike Bonnet)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 14:30:35 -0400
Subject: noarch rpm feature query/issue
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904031119y2e75354dhb158571c38e5593d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5256d0b0904031119y2e75354dhb158571c38e5593d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D655CB.5020808@redhat.com>

Peter Robinson wrote:
> I have a query about the new noarch feature for building rpms. I have
> a package called gupnp-vala which the contents there of can be noarch.
> It built fine in koji as noarch so I presume it passed the rpmdiff or
> what ever is run against the rpms. But it contains a pkgconfig file
> which is located in /usr/lib or /usr/lib64 so pacakges built against
> it (none actually in Fedora yet, but one awaiting review) fail to
> build on either 32 or 64 bit platforms depending on which of the build
> packages gets the lime light.
> 
> So my query is, I presume due to the pkgconfig this package shouldn't
> be noarch, so there must be a bug there somewhere which caused it to
> get past koji. But as its noarch AFAICT other than the location of the
> pkgconfig file it seems somewhat of a waste to lose the advantage of
> the noarch stuff for the sake of a pkgconfig file as I presume most
> devel packages could be noarch.

The rpmdiff you're talking about is only run against noarch 
*subpackages*.  This is a noarch base package, and like every other 
package, we assume the maintainer is handling arch issues appropriately. 
  In this case, a noarch package should not be dropping files under 
%{_lib}, since this will obviously be different depending on which arch 
it was built on.  Maybe there should be a check in redhat-rpm-config to 
avoid this?  I'm not sure how noarch packages are supposed to handle 
pkgconfig files.

> Cheers,
> Peter
> 
> BTW I see noarch packages are located in each of the separate arch
> trees as opposed to being in a noarch dir which looks like the
> advantage of the noarch in space saving isn't happening. What other
> advantages does it offer?

noarch packages are often hardlinked into the different dirs, so though 
they appear multiple times they don't consume additional space.



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 18:36:46 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:36:46 +0100
Subject: noarch rpm feature query/issue
In-Reply-To: <49D655CB.5020808@redhat.com>
References: <5256d0b0904031119y2e75354dhb158571c38e5593d@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D655CB.5020808@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904031136l3a2c796cgb94e2effa0031ca5@mail.gmail.com>

>> I have a query about the new noarch feature for building rpms. I have
>> a package called gupnp-vala which the contents there of can be noarch.
>> It built fine in koji as noarch so I presume it passed the rpmdiff or
>> what ever is run against the rpms. But it contains a pkgconfig file
>> which is located in /usr/lib or /usr/lib64 so pacakges built against
>> it (none actually in Fedora yet, but one awaiting review) fail to
>> build on either 32 or 64 bit platforms depending on which of the build
>> packages gets the lime light.
>>
>> So my query is, I presume due to the pkgconfig this package shouldn't
>> be noarch, so there must be a bug there somewhere which caused it to
>> get past koji. But as its noarch AFAICT other than the location of the
>> pkgconfig file it seems somewhat of a waste to lose the advantage of
>> the noarch stuff for the sake of a pkgconfig file as I presume most
>> devel packages could be noarch.
>
> The rpmdiff you're talking about is only run against noarch *subpackages*.
> ?This is a noarch base package, and like every other package, we assume the
> maintainer is handling arch issues appropriately. ?In this case, a noarch
> package should not be dropping files under %{_lib}, since this will
> obviously be different depending on which arch it was built on. ?Maybe there
> should be a check in redhat-rpm-config to avoid this? ?I'm not sure how
> noarch packages are supposed to handle pkgconfig files.

Thanks for the clarification, ultimately it was an oversight on my
part, and the package review. Maybe one of the easy ways to pick it up
is a check in rpmlint.

Cheers,
Peter



From a.badger at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 18:34:20 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 11:34:20 -0700
Subject: noarch rpm feature query/issue
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904031119y2e75354dhb158571c38e5593d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5256d0b0904031119y2e75354dhb158571c38e5593d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D656AC.5070808@gmail.com>

Peter Robinson wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I have a query about the new noarch feature for building rpms. I have
> a package called gupnp-vala which the contents there of can be noarch.
> It built fine in koji as noarch so I presume it passed the rpmdiff or
> what ever is run against the rpms. But it contains a pkgconfig file
> which is located in /usr/lib or /usr/lib64 so pacakges built against
> it (none actually in Fedora yet, but one awaiting review) fail to
> build on either 32 or 64 bit platforms depending on which of the build
> packages gets the lime light.
> 
> So my query is, I presume due to the pkgconfig this package shouldn't
> be noarch, so there must be a bug there somewhere which caused it to
> get past koji. But as its noarch AFAICT other than the location of the
> pkgconfig file it seems somewhat of a waste to lose the advantage of
> the noarch stuff for the sake of a pkgconfig file as I presume most
> devel packages could be noarch.
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter
> 
> BTW I see noarch packages are located in each of the separate arch
> trees as opposed to being in a noarch dir which looks like the
> advantage of the noarch in space saving isn't happening. What other
> advantages does it offer?
> 
From what I can see of the gupnp-vala spec in the cvs repository, it's
not using the new noarch subpackage feature.  It's just trying to be a
regular noarch package.  (Those don't have any checks performed against
them so you have to be conscious of these by yourself).

I looked over the source tarball and it seems like you can make this a
noarch package by putting the pkgdconf file into %{_datadir}/pkgconfig/
instead of %{_libdir}/pkgconfig.

-Toshio

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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr  3 20:08:10 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 01:38:10 +0530
Subject: Fedora 11 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <708FCBA3D13D4A65AE7F26642D80F82D@Aidan>
References: <708FCBA3D13D4A65AE7F26642D80F82D@Aidan>
Message-ID: <49D66CAA.7080603@fedoraproject.org>

John J. McDonough wrote:
> I wanted to take a moment to thank all the folks who contributed to
> getting the release notes out.  They went to the translators last night,
> and I see they are already hard at work.
> 
> There were an awful lot of changes this release and I know it wasn't
> easy. With the switch to Publican, and the broken mw-render we had some
> additional challenges, but with everyone's help we got it done.
> 
> Once again, thank you all.

Thanks for working on this. Perhaps you can add this step into the
release notes?

http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/2009/04/03/annoying-font-dialogs/

If not now, then as a post - GA update.

Rahul



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr  3 21:33:13 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 23:33:13 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238650802.4338.196.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1q45$ikd$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238694566.4338.214.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <gr5vap$bco$5@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> This gets me:
> 
> Error while synchronizing: Can't load plugin implementation module
> from /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so:
> /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so: undefined symbol:
> _ZN4KCal13IncidenceBase6setUidERK7QString
> 
> I tried rebuilding it on my local system to make sure it wasn't just
> some kind of mismatch, but same error.

Hmmm, interesting. I'll look into this, maybe it's the RTLD_DEEPBIND hack
which breaks things (I can try just disabling it, as we aren't shipping the
KDE 3 KitchenSync at the moment anyway), maybe it's something different.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr  3 21:36:04 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 23:36:04 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238650802.4338.196.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1q45$ikd$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238694566.4338.214.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <gr5vg4$bco$6@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> This gets me:
> 
> Error while synchronizing: Can't load plugin implementation module
> from /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so:
> /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so: undefined symbol:
> _ZN4KCal13IncidenceBase6setUidERK7QString
> 
> I tried rebuilding it on my local system to make sure it wasn't just
> some kind of mismatch, but same error.

Hmmm, what's the output of the following?
ldd /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so

I'd like to know what libraries are being linked in.

        Kevin Kofler



From james at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr  3 21:47:51 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:47:51 -0400
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238795271.31472.175.camel@code.and.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 17:17 +0530, Debayan Banerjee wrote:
> Let ISVs, 3rd party developers package stuff and host their own
> repositories.

 IMNSHO this isn't viable, which might be central to why you don't
understand what you want to do isn't such a good idea.
 I've tried to write up an overview of the problem, why it can't work,
and a possible solution for the 3rd parties:

http://illiterat.livejournal.com/6716.html

-- 
James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>
Fedora



From debayanin at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 21:58:22 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 03:28:22 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <1238795271.31472.175.camel@code.and.org>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238795271.31472.175.camel@code.and.org>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904031458m78e5377cr1a7bdefa5dce3006@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/4 James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 17:17 +0530, Debayan Banerjee wrote:
>> Let ISVs, 3rd party developers package stuff and host their own
>> repositories.
>
> ?IMNSHO this isn't viable, which might be central to why you don't
> understand what you want to do isn't such a good idea.
> ?I've tried to write up an overview of the problem, why it can't work,
> and a possible solution for the 3rd parties:
>
> http://illiterat.livejournal.com/6716.html

Thank you very much for your effort. I learnt a lot.


-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr  3 22:06:10 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 00:06:10 +0200
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gr618i$jqv$1@ger.gmane.org>

Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> I had the fortune to attend pycon this past week and went to a talk
> about python-2.6 compatibility with python-3.

I still think a compat package is the only viable approach, just like for
GTK+ 1 and 2 or for Qt/KDE 3 and 4.

The language is very different, so it's pretty much nontrivial to port all
the Python programs in Fedora, of which there are a lot.

        Kevin Kofler



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 23:05:38 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 18:05:38 -0500
Subject: Monodevelop 2.0 & Mono 2.4 for F10?
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904031605l6c16ee23n7dee7a7a268c085a@mail.gmail.com>

I saw on Mono's website that Mono 2.4 and MonoDevelop 2.0 were released. I
checked koji and saw it was only being built for Fedora 11, and it failed at
that. Can it be pushed back into Fedora 10 as well?
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From louisg00 at bellsouth.net  Fri Apr  3 23:23:38 2009
From: louisg00 at bellsouth.net (Louis E Garcia II)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 19:23:38 -0400
Subject: Had this oops while using nfs on F11
Message-ID: <1238801018.4089.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Is this enough for a bug report?


Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel:Oops: 0000 [#1] SMP 

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel:last sysfs
file: /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1c.3/0000:05:00.0/rfkill/rfkill0/state

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel:Stack:

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: 0000000000000001 ffffffff815f4040 ffff88001f9efc90
0000000000000246

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: ffff88001f9c6000 ffff88002ed3d180 ffff88001f9efc90
ffffffff811894f8

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel:Call Trace:

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffff811894f8>] selinux_dentry_open+0xe7/0xf0

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffff81181be1>] security_dentry_open+0x16/0x18

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffff810d69de>] __dentry_open+0x11b/0x273

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffff810d6bbd>] dentry_open+0x87/0x8e

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffff813a9f97>] ? trace_hardirqs_on_thunk+0x3a/0x3c

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffffa03390cc>] nfsd_open+0x12d/0x156 [nfsd]

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffff81050686>] ? _local_bh_enable_ip+0xde/0xeb

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffffa0339451>] nfsd_read+0x85/0xc4 [nfsd]

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffffa033f6f8>] nfsd3_proc_read+0xe7/0x126 [nfsd]

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffffa033426f>] nfsd_dispatch+0xf1/0x1cc [nfsd]

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffffa02921b5>] svc_process+0x426/0x642 [sunrpc]

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffffa033486e>] nfsd+0x14c/0x1aa [nfsd]

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffffa0334722>] ? nfsd+0x0/0x1aa [nfsd]

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffff8105edd5>] kthread+0x4d/0x78

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffff810126ca>] child_rip+0xa/0x20

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffff81011fe7>] ? restore_args+0x0/0x30

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffff8105ed88>] ? kthread+0x0/0x78

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel: [<ffffffff810126c0>] ? child_rip+0x0/0x20

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel:Code: 83 ec 50 0f 1f 44 00 00 44 8b 9e 18 02 00 00 31 c0 49 89
c8 41 81 e3 00 02 00 00 75 42 48 8b 47 68 48 85 c9 4c 8b 96 20 02 00 00
<44> 8b 48 04 75 19 4c 8d 45 b0 b9 12 00 00 00 44 89 d8 4c 89 c7 

Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 kernel:CR2: 0000000000000004




From davej at redhat.com  Fri Apr  3 23:31:40 2009
From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:31:40 -0400
Subject: Had this oops while using nfs on F11
In-Reply-To: <1238801018.4089.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238801018.4089.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090403233140.GA23724@redhat.com>

On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 07:23:38PM -0400, Louis E Garcia II wrote:
 > Is this enough for a bug report?
 > 
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel:Oops: 0000 [#1] SMP 
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel:last sysfs
 > file: /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1c.3/0000:05:00.0/rfkill/rfkill0/state
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel:Stack:
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: 0000000000000001 ffffffff815f4040 ffff88001f9efc90
 > 0000000000000246
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: ffff88001f9c6000 ffff88002ed3d180 ffff88001f9efc90
 > ffffffff811894f8
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel:Call Trace:
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffff811894f8>] selinux_dentry_open+0xe7/0xf0
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffff81181be1>] security_dentry_open+0x16/0x18
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffff810d69de>] __dentry_open+0x11b/0x273
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffff810d6bbd>] dentry_open+0x87/0x8e
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffff813a9f97>] ? trace_hardirqs_on_thunk+0x3a/0x3c
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffffa03390cc>] nfsd_open+0x12d/0x156 [nfsd]
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffff81050686>] ? _local_bh_enable_ip+0xde/0xeb
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffffa0339451>] nfsd_read+0x85/0xc4 [nfsd]
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffffa033f6f8>] nfsd3_proc_read+0xe7/0x126 [nfsd]
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffffa033426f>] nfsd_dispatch+0xf1/0x1cc [nfsd]
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffffa02921b5>] svc_process+0x426/0x642 [sunrpc]
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffffa033486e>] nfsd+0x14c/0x1aa [nfsd]
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffffa0334722>] ? nfsd+0x0/0x1aa [nfsd]
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffff8105edd5>] kthread+0x4d/0x78
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffff810126ca>] child_rip+0xa/0x20
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffff81011fe7>] ? restore_args+0x0/0x30
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffff8105ed88>] ? kthread+0x0/0x78
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel: [<ffffffff810126c0>] ? child_rip+0x0/0x20
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel:Code: 83 ec 50 0f 1f 44 00 00 44 8b 9e 18 02 00 00 31 c0 49 89
 > c8 41 81 e3 00 02 00 00 75 42 48 8b 47 68 48 85 c9 4c 8b 96 20 02 00 00
 > <44> 8b 48 04 75 19 4c 8d 45 b0 b9 12 00 00 00 44 89 d8 4c 89 c7 
 > 
 > Message from syslogd at localhost at Apr  3 19:08:35 ...
 >  kernel:CR2: 0000000000000004

Yes. bz it please.

If the box is still up, you'll get a cleaner output 
(without all those syslogd lines) by running dmesg

	Dave
 



From email.ahmedkamal at googlemail.com  Sat Apr  4 00:00:11 2009
From: email.ahmedkamal at googlemail.com (Ahmed Kamal)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 02:00:11 +0200
Subject: F11 beta install Fail, Fedora cannot stand opensolaris
Message-ID: <3da3b5b40904031700w51332508s8856e79f31adb530@mail.gmail.com>

Trying to install F11 beta on my laptop fails with "File System error
detected, cannot continue"
It seems to barf on /dev/sda2 which is an opensolaris ZFS partition
/dev/sda2   *        7753       10302    20482875   bf  Solaris

It might be related that I have opensolaris' grub installed (as it's the
only one that can read/boot zfs). Anyway, relevant logs below

=========== Anaconda.log =======
01:44:51 DEBUG   : DiskDevice.addChild: kids: 1 ; name: sda ;
01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice._setFormat: sda2 ;
01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice._setFormat: sda2 ; current: None ; type:
None ;
01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.probe: sda2 ; exists: True ;
01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.getFlag: path: /dev/sda2 ; flag: 1 ;
part: parted.Partition instance --
  disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
<parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
  number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
  name: None  active: True  busy: False
  geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0>
PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.flagAvailable: path: /dev/sda2 ; flag: 1
; part: parted.Partition instance --
  disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
<parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
  number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
  name: None  active: True  busy: False
  geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0>
PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.getFlag: path: /dev/sda2 ; flag: 10 ;
part: parted.Partition instance --
  disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
<parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
  number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
  name: None  active: True  busy: False
  geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0>
PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.flagAvailable: path: /dev/sda2 ; flag: 10
; part: parted.Partition instance --
  disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
<parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
  number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
  name: None  active: True  busy: False
  geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0>
PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
01:44:51 DEBUG   : isys.py:mount()- going to mount /dev/sda2 on
/tmp/getsize-_VLEuS with options ro


========== Storage.log =============
[2009-04-04 01:44:49,259]     INFO: devices to scan: ['sda', 'sda1', 'sda2',
'sda3', 'sda4', 'sda5', 'sda6', 'sda7', 'sda8', 'sda9', 'sda10', 'sda11',
'sr0']
[2009-04-04 01:44:49,260]    DEBUG: scanning sda
(/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda)...
[2009-04-04 01:44:49,260]    DEBUG: sda is a disk
[2009-04-04 01:44:49,260]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda'...
[2009-04-04 01:44:49,261]    DEBUG: found None
[2009-04-04 01:44:49,261]    DEBUG: getFormat('None') returning DeviceFormat
instance
[2009-04-04 01:44:49,425]    DEBUG: looking up parted Device: /dev/sda
[2009-04-04 01:44:49,437]    DEBUG: creating parted Disk: /dev/sda
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,094]    DEBUG: setting sda diskLabel to msdos
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,094]    DEBUG: added sda (disk) to device tree
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,094]    DEBUG: scanning sda1
(/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda/sda1)...
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: sda1 is a partition
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda1'...
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: found None
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda'...
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,096]    DEBUG: found DiskDevice instance
(0x7fc52bd15d50) --
  description =   name = sda  status = True  parents = []
  kids = 0
  uuid = None  format = <storage.formats.DeviceFormat object at
0x7fc52bd15ed0>  size = 305242.844238
  major = 8  minor = 0  exists = True
  sysfs path =
/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda  label
= msdos
  target size = 0  path = /dev/sda
  format args = []  removable = False  partedDevice = <parted.device.Device
object at 0x7fc52bcb0310>
  partedDisk = <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,101]    DEBUG: getFormat('None') returning DeviceFormat
instance
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,103]    DEBUG: looking up parted Partition: /dev/sda1
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,116]    DEBUG: added sda1 (partition) to device tree
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,181]     INFO: set SELinux context for mountpoint
/tmp/getsize-EPwaKl to False
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,568]     INFO: set SELinux context for newly mounted
filesystem root at /tmp/getsize-EPwaKl to False
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,589]    DEBUG: getFormat('ntfs') returning NTFS
instance
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,594]    DEBUG: scanning sda2
(/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda/sda2)...
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,594]    DEBUG: sda2 is a partition
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,595]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda2'...
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,595]    DEBUG: found None
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,595]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda'...
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,596]    DEBUG: found DiskDevice instance
(0x7fc52bd15d50) --
  description =   name = sda  status = True  parents = []
  kids = 1
  uuid = None  format = <storage.formats.DeviceFormat object at
0x7fc52bd15ed0>  size = 305242.844238
  major = 8  minor = 0  exists = True
  sysfs path =
/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda  label
= msdos
  target size = 0  path = /dev/sda
  format args = []  removable = False  partedDevice = <parted.device.Device
object at 0x7fc52bcb0310>
  partedDisk = <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,600]    DEBUG: getFormat('None') returning DeviceFormat
instance
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,602]    DEBUG: looking up parted Partition: /dev/sda2
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,615]    DEBUG: added sda2 (partition) to device tree
[2009-04-04 01:44:51,616]     INFO: set SELinux context for mountpoint
/tmp/getsize-_VLEuS to False
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Sat Apr  4 00:20:55 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:20:55 -0700
Subject: F11 beta install Fail, Fedora cannot stand opensolaris
In-Reply-To: <3da3b5b40904031700w51332508s8856e79f31adb530@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3da3b5b40904031700w51332508s8856e79f31adb530@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238804455.3763.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-04 at 02:00 +0200, Ahmed Kamal wrote:
> 
> Trying to install F11 beta on my laptop fails with "File System error
> detected, cannot continue"

Please file a bug with this info.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From sandeen at redhat.com  Sat Apr  4 00:21:01 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 19:21:01 -0500
Subject: F11 beta install Fail, Fedora cannot stand opensolaris
In-Reply-To: <3da3b5b40904031700w51332508s8856e79f31adb530@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3da3b5b40904031700w51332508s8856e79f31adb530@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D6A7ED.3070603@redhat.com>

Ahmed Kamal wrote:
> Trying to install F11 beta on my laptop fails with "File System error
> detected, cannot continue"
> It seems to barf on /dev/sda2 which is an opensolaris ZFS partition
> /dev/sda2   *        7753       10302    20482875   bf  Solaris
> 
> It might be related that I have opensolaris' grub installed (as it's the
> only one that can read/boot zfs). Anyway, relevant logs below

What does blkid think of the device; does blkid /dev/sda2 think it's
some other fs?

Also anything interesting from the kernel?  (dmesg, or look on the VT
that has the kernel log)

I'm not sure how anaconda decides what to try to mount to get sizes...
if it's totally unrecognized it should probably skip it.t

-Eric

> =========== Anaconda.log =======
> 01:44:51 DEBUG   : DiskDevice.addChild: kids: 1 ; name: sda ;
> 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice._setFormat: sda2 ;
> 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice._setFormat: sda2 ; current: None ;
> type: None ;
> 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.probe: sda2 ; exists: True ;
> 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.getFlag: path: /dev/sda2 ; flag: 1 ;
> part: parted.Partition instance --
>   disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
> <parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
>   number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
>   name: None  active: True  busy: False
>   geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0> 
> PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
> 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.flagAvailable: path: /dev/sda2 ;
> flag: 1 ; part: parted.Partition instance --
>   disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
> <parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
>   number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
>   name: None  active: True  busy: False
>   geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0> 
> PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
> 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.getFlag: path: /dev/sda2 ; flag: 10 ;
> part: parted.Partition instance --
>   disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
> <parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
>   number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
>   name: None  active: True  busy: False
>   geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0> 
> PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
> 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.flagAvailable: path: /dev/sda2 ;
> flag: 10 ; part: parted.Partition instance --
>   disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
> <parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
>   number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
>   name: None  active: True  busy: False
>   geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0> 
> PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
> 01:44:51 DEBUG   : isys.py:mount()- going to mount /dev/sda2 on
> /tmp/getsize-_VLEuS with options ro
> 
> 
> ========== Storage.log =============
> [2009-04-04 01:44:49,259]     INFO: devices to scan: ['sda', 'sda1',
> 'sda2', 'sda3', 'sda4', 'sda5', 'sda6', 'sda7', 'sda8', 'sda9', 'sda10',
> 'sda11', 'sr0']
> [2009-04-04 01:44:49,260]    DEBUG: scanning sda
> (/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda)...
> [2009-04-04 01:44:49,260]    DEBUG: sda is a disk
> [2009-04-04 01:44:49,260]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda'...
> [2009-04-04 01:44:49,261]    DEBUG: found None
> [2009-04-04 01:44:49,261]    DEBUG: getFormat('None') returning
> DeviceFormat instance
> [2009-04-04 01:44:49,425]    DEBUG: looking up parted Device: /dev/sda
> [2009-04-04 01:44:49,437]    DEBUG: creating parted Disk: /dev/sda
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,094]    DEBUG: setting sda diskLabel to msdos
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,094]    DEBUG: added sda (disk) to device tree
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,094]    DEBUG: scanning sda1
> (/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda/sda1)...
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: sda1 is a partition
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda1'...
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: found None
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda'...
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,096]    DEBUG: found DiskDevice instance
> (0x7fc52bd15d50) --
>   description =   name = sda  status = True  parents = []
>   kids = 0
>   uuid = None  format = <storage.formats.DeviceFormat object at
> 0x7fc52bd15ed0>  size = 305242.844238
>   major = 8  minor = 0  exists = True
>   sysfs path =
> /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda 
> label = msdos
>   target size = 0  path = /dev/sda
>   format args = []  removable = False  partedDevice =
> <parted.device.Device object at 0x7fc52bcb0310>
>   partedDisk = <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,101]    DEBUG: getFormat('None') returning
> DeviceFormat instance
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,103]    DEBUG: looking up parted Partition: /dev/sda1
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,116]    DEBUG: added sda1 (partition) to device tree
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,181]     INFO: set SELinux context for mountpoint
> /tmp/getsize-EPwaKl to False
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,568]     INFO: set SELinux context for newly
> mounted filesystem root at /tmp/getsize-EPwaKl to False
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,589]    DEBUG: getFormat('ntfs') returning NTFS
> instance
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,594]    DEBUG: scanning sda2
> (/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda/sda2)...
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,594]    DEBUG: sda2 is a partition
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,595]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda2'...
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,595]    DEBUG: found None
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,595]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda'...
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,596]    DEBUG: found DiskDevice instance
> (0x7fc52bd15d50) --
>   description =   name = sda  status = True  parents = []
>   kids = 1
>   uuid = None  format = <storage.formats.DeviceFormat object at
> 0x7fc52bd15ed0>  size = 305242.844238
>   major = 8  minor = 0  exists = True
>   sysfs path =
> /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda 
> label = msdos
>   target size = 0  path = /dev/sda
>   format args = []  removable = False  partedDevice =
> <parted.device.Device object at 0x7fc52bcb0310>
>   partedDisk = <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,600]    DEBUG: getFormat('None') returning
> DeviceFormat instance
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,602]    DEBUG: looking up parted Partition: /dev/sda2
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,615]    DEBUG: added sda2 (partition) to device tree
> [2009-04-04 01:44:51,616]     INFO: set SELinux context for mountpoint
> /tmp/getsize-_VLEuS to False
> 



From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr  4 00:42:26 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 19:42:26 -0500
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238781080.8700.53.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238747739.3338.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238781080.8700.53.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1238805746.23672.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 10:51 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 03:35 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> 
> > The tests should be automated and run daily, hourly, or even before
> > every SCM commit. Ideally, *nothing* would be allowed to be
> > committed/pushed into the repo that broke the tests. That would also
> > provide motivation to keep the test scripts working...
> > 
> > All reported bugs should be turned into automated test cases if possible
> > and added to the test suite. This ensures once something is fixed it
> > never breaks, ever again. Regressions are not an option.
> 
> If you actually look at the test cases we've been doing, this is not
> practical. How do you automate "you should see a smooth graphical boot
> process that fades into GDM"?

You do low level unit tests of all render paths. Readback from the frame
buffer.

> Or looking at the smoothness of video
> playback?

Yes, some things can't be fully automated, but you can still automate
them to the point where a test suite tells a user what to look for,
displays a test case, and asks the user "Hey did that look right?". Two
clicks and ~10sec per test.

Out of all the tests on radeon test day, only the XV test, DPMS and
multihead tests are the only one's that couldn't be easily automated.

Though with enough money, you could automate those too, with the use of
some cameras and video capture hardware, or for more $$$ high speed
digital sampling hardware... Get a hardware hacker to instrument the
laptop's backlight...

How much is stability worth to Red Hat Inc?

> I like the idea of automated testing, but a lot of stuff - especially
> the really critical stuff to do with hardware - is not amenable to
> automation. Or at least it would be extremely difficult.
> 
> > The lack of automated testing in the project is saddening. However a lot
> > of the problem is hardware. We really need a diverse hardware testing
> > lab. As it is, testing seems to get done on the latest shinyest hardware
> > of the month that the (paid) developers just bought, leaving those of us
> > who don't buy new hardware every month/year in a dustpile of
> > regressions.
> 
> Will Woods and Jesse Keating are working very hard on automated QA
> topics, but as I said, I just don't think automation can ever be the
> answer for some areas.

... Really what I have in mind here is stuff like "Video playback locks
up the machine", "OpenGL locks up the machine", "Second Life hangs the X
server", "World of Warcraft crashes the X server", "This web site
crashes the X server", "Rosegarden crashes the X server". All of which
are entirely automateable, though the "hard locks the machine" cases
will require some sort of hardware watchdog arrangement...

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=441665
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=474973
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=474977
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487432

At any rate, *some* testing is way better than none at all.
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From email.ahmedkamal at googlemail.com  Sat Apr  4 00:57:20 2009
From: email.ahmedkamal at googlemail.com (Ahmed Kamal)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 02:57:20 +0200
Subject: F11 beta install Fail, Fedora cannot stand opensolaris
In-Reply-To: <49D6A7ED.3070603@redhat.com>
References: <3da3b5b40904031700w51332508s8856e79f31adb530@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D6A7ED.3070603@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <3da3b5b40904031757t4fe06363m64e3b71d249db109@mail.gmail.com>

# blkid /dev/sda2
/dev/sda2: LABEL="/" UUID="0ff0d0da-f193-4a5d-ae39-27d6f0bab1c4"
SEC_TYPE="ext2" TYPE="ext3"

BZ @ https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494070

Regards

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 2:21 AM, Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com> wrote:

> Ahmed Kamal wrote:
> > Trying to install F11 beta on my laptop fails with "File System error
> > detected, cannot continue"
> > It seems to barf on /dev/sda2 which is an opensolaris ZFS partition
> > /dev/sda2   *        7753       10302    20482875   bf  Solaris
> >
> > It might be related that I have opensolaris' grub installed (as it's the
> > only one that can read/boot zfs). Anyway, relevant logs below
>
> What does blkid think of the device; does blkid /dev/sda2 think it's
> some other fs?
>
> Also anything interesting from the kernel?  (dmesg, or look on the VT
> that has the kernel log)
>
> I'm not sure how anaconda decides what to try to mount to get sizes...
> if it's totally unrecognized it should probably skip it.t
>
> -Eric
>
> > =========== Anaconda.log =======
> > 01:44:51 DEBUG   : DiskDevice.addChild: kids: 1 ; name: sda ;
> > 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice._setFormat: sda2 ;
> > 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice._setFormat: sda2 ; current: None ;
> > type: None ;
> > 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.probe: sda2 ; exists: True ;
> > 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.getFlag: path: /dev/sda2 ; flag: 1 ;
> > part: parted.Partition instance --
> >   disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
> > <parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
> >   number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
> >   name: None  active: True  busy: False
> >   geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0>
> > PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
> > 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.flagAvailable: path: /dev/sda2 ;
> > flag: 1 ; part: parted.Partition instance --
> >   disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
> > <parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
> >   number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
> >   name: None  active: True  busy: False
> >   geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0>
> > PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
> > 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.getFlag: path: /dev/sda2 ; flag: 10 ;
> > part: parted.Partition instance --
> >   disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
> > <parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
> >   number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
> >   name: None  active: True  busy: False
> >   geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0>
> > PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
> > 01:44:51 DEBUG   : PartitionDevice.flagAvailable: path: /dev/sda2 ;
> > flag: 10 ; part: parted.Partition instance --
> >   disk: <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>  fileSystem:
> > <parted.filesystem.FileSystem object at 0x7fc52bcb0b50>
> >   number: 2  path: /dev/sda2  type: 0
> >   name: None  active: True  busy: False
> >   geometry: <parted.geometry.Geometry object at 0x7fc52bcb0ad0>
> > PedPartition: <_ped.Partition object at 0x7fc52bcb1290> ;
> > 01:44:51 DEBUG   : isys.py:mount()- going to mount /dev/sda2 on
> > /tmp/getsize-_VLEuS with options ro
> >
> >
> > ========== Storage.log =============
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:49,259]     INFO: devices to scan: ['sda', 'sda1',
> > 'sda2', 'sda3', 'sda4', 'sda5', 'sda6', 'sda7', 'sda8', 'sda9', 'sda10',
> > 'sda11', 'sr0']
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:49,260]    DEBUG: scanning sda
> > (/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda)...
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:49,260]    DEBUG: sda is a disk
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:49,260]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda'...
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:49,261]    DEBUG: found None
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:49,261]    DEBUG: getFormat('None') returning
> > DeviceFormat instance
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:49,425]    DEBUG: looking up parted Device: /dev/sda
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:49,437]    DEBUG: creating parted Disk: /dev/sda
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,094]    DEBUG: setting sda diskLabel to msdos
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,094]    DEBUG: added sda (disk) to device tree
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,094]    DEBUG: scanning sda1
> >
> (/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda/sda1)...
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: sda1 is a partition
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda1'...
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: found None
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,095]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda'...
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,096]    DEBUG: found DiskDevice instance
> > (0x7fc52bd15d50) --
> >   description =   name = sda  status = True  parents = []
> >   kids = 0
> >   uuid = None  format = <storage.formats.DeviceFormat object at
> > 0x7fc52bd15ed0>  size = 305242.844238
> >   major = 8  minor = 0  exists = True
> >   sysfs path =
> > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda
> > label = msdos
> >   target size = 0  path = /dev/sda
> >   format args = []  removable = False  partedDevice =
> > <parted.device.Device object at 0x7fc52bcb0310>
> >   partedDisk = <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,101]    DEBUG: getFormat('None') returning
> > DeviceFormat instance
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,103]    DEBUG: looking up parted Partition:
> /dev/sda1
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,116]    DEBUG: added sda1 (partition) to device tree
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,181]     INFO: set SELinux context for mountpoint
> > /tmp/getsize-EPwaKl to False
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,568]     INFO: set SELinux context for newly
> > mounted filesystem root at /tmp/getsize-EPwaKl to False
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,589]    DEBUG: getFormat('ntfs') returning NTFS
> > instance
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,594]    DEBUG: scanning sda2
> >
> (/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda/sda2)...
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,594]    DEBUG: sda2 is a partition
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,595]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda2'...
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,595]    DEBUG: found None
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,595]    DEBUG: looking for device 'sda'...
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,596]    DEBUG: found DiskDevice instance
> > (0x7fc52bd15d50) --
> >   description =   name = sda  status = True  parents = []
> >   kids = 1
> >   uuid = None  format = <storage.formats.DeviceFormat object at
> > 0x7fc52bd15ed0>  size = 305242.844238
> >   major = 8  minor = 0  exists = True
> >   sysfs path =
> > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda
> > label = msdos
> >   target size = 0  path = /dev/sda
> >   format args = []  removable = False  partedDevice =
> > <parted.device.Device object at 0x7fc52bcb0310>
> >   partedDisk = <parted.disk.Disk object at 0x7fc52bcb03d0>
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,600]    DEBUG: getFormat('None') returning
> > DeviceFormat instance
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,602]    DEBUG: looking up parted Partition:
> /dev/sda2
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,615]    DEBUG: added sda2 (partition) to device tree
> > [2009-04-04 01:44:51,616]     INFO: set SELinux context for mountpoint
> > /tmp/getsize-_VLEuS to False
> >
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From davej at redhat.com  Sat Apr  4 01:14:31 2009
From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 21:14:31 -0400
Subject: F11 beta install Fail, Fedora cannot stand opensolaris
In-Reply-To: <49D6A7ED.3070603@redhat.com>
References: <3da3b5b40904031700w51332508s8856e79f31adb530@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D6A7ED.3070603@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090404011431.GA30393@redhat.com>

On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 07:21:01PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
 > Ahmed Kamal wrote:
 > > Trying to install F11 beta on my laptop fails with "File System error
 > > detected, cannot continue"
 > > It seems to barf on /dev/sda2 which is an opensolaris ZFS partition
 > > /dev/sda2   *        7753       10302    20482875   bf  Solaris
 > > 
 > > It might be related that I have opensolaris' grub installed (as it's the
 > > only one that can read/boot zfs). Anyway, relevant logs below
 > 
 > What does blkid think of the device; does blkid /dev/sda2 think it's
 > some other fs?
 > 
 > Also anything interesting from the kernel?  (dmesg, or look on the VT
 > that has the kernel log)
 > 
 > I'm not sure how anaconda decides what to try to mount to get sizes...
 > if it's totally unrecognized it should probably skip it.t

This looks like https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=490795
where btrfs comedically tries to mount zfs partitions.

Lulz follow shortly afterwards.

	Dave



From katzj at redhat.com  Sat Apr  4 01:37:28 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 21:37:28 -0400
Subject: python-2.6 and python-3.x
In-Reply-To: <gr618i$jqv$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49D4F3CC.2040809@gmail.com> <gr618i$jqv$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090404013727.GA1576@redhat.com>

On Saturday, April 04 2009, Kevin Kofler said:
> Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> > I had the fortune to attend pycon this past week and went to a talk
> > about python-2.6 compatibility with python-3.
> 
> I still think a compat package is the only viable approach, just like for
> GTK+ 1 and 2 or for Qt/KDE 3 and 4.
> 
> The language is very different, so it's pretty much nontrivial to port all
> the Python programs in Fedora, of which there are a lot.

It's also pretty non-trivial to include compat modules for every python
binding that is shipped.  It's not just like GTK+ 1 vs 2 or KDE3 vs
KDE4.

If only it were so simple

Jeremy



From email.ahmedkamal at googlemail.com  Sat Apr  4 01:59:12 2009
From: email.ahmedkamal at googlemail.com (Ahmed Kamal)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 03:59:12 +0200
Subject: F11 beta install Fail, Fedora cannot stand opensolaris
In-Reply-To: <20090404011431.GA30393@redhat.com>
References: <3da3b5b40904031700w51332508s8856e79f31adb530@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D6A7ED.3070603@redhat.com> <20090404011431.GA30393@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <3da3b5b40904031859v5084b709h52ad695f834e94fa@mail.gmail.com>

Why does the failure to mount a partition, kill the setup ?! IMO, the
partition should just be ignored

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 3:14 AM, Dave Jones <davej at redhat.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 07:21:01PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
>  > Ahmed Kamal wrote:
>  > > Trying to install F11 beta on my laptop fails with "File System error
>  > > detected, cannot continue"
>  > > It seems to barf on /dev/sda2 which is an opensolaris ZFS partition
>  > > /dev/sda2   *        7753       10302    20482875   bf  Solaris
>  > >
>  > > It might be related that I have opensolaris' grub installed (as it's
> the
>  > > only one that can read/boot zfs). Anyway, relevant logs below
>  >
>  > What does blkid think of the device; does blkid /dev/sda2 think it's
>  > some other fs?
>  >
>  > Also anything interesting from the kernel?  (dmesg, or look on the VT
>  > that has the kernel log)
>  >
>  > I'm not sure how anaconda decides what to try to mount to get sizes...
>  > if it's totally unrecognized it should probably skip it.t
>
> This looks like https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=490795
> where btrfs comedically tries to mount zfs partitions.
>
> Lulz follow shortly afterwards.
>
>        Dave
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From tcallawa at redhat.com  Sat Apr  4 02:54:30 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 22:54:30 -0400
Subject: Another Dwarf Error with rawhide
Message-ID: <49D6CBE6.7070300@redhat.com>

I'm getting an odd error trying to build some code in rawhide (x86_64),
specifically:

/usr/bin/ld: Dwarf Error: Offset (44013) greater than or equal to
.debug_str size (35429).

I remembered reading an older fedora-devel post, where it could either
be a code issue or a compiler/linker bug, so I generated the
pre-processed sources and tarred them up. Hopefully, you'll be able to
figure out what's going on here, as I am by no means a C++ expert.

Full compile log: http://spot.fedorapeople.org/rawhide-dwarf-error.log
Pre-processed sources (/usr/bin/g++ -save-temps ...):
http://spot.fedorapeople.org/dwarf-error-preprocessed-sources.tar.bz2

Thanks in advance,

~spot



From petersen at redhat.com  Sat Apr  4 03:34:32 2009
From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 23:34:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Broken dependencies in Fedora 10 - 2009-04-02 (cabal2spec)
In-Reply-To: <20090402194231.11038.83547@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <340192305.4028641238816072603.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>

----- "Michael Schwendt" <mschwendt at gmail.com> wrote:
> Your following packages in the repository suffer from broken
> dependencies:
> 
> ======================================================================
> The results in this summary consider Test Updates!
> ======================================================================
> 
> package: cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc10.noarch from fedora-updates-10-ppc64
>   unresolved deps:
>      ghc > 0:6.10.1-7

This should get fixed when we finish porting cabal2spec from shell script to Haskell hopefully during the f12 cycle.

Jens



From pato.lukaz at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 05:03:07 2009
From: pato.lukaz at gmail.com (Alberto Patino)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 23:03:07 -0600
Subject: dmraid isw serial number issue avoids to install f10-f11 Beta
Message-ID: <4489a22a0904032203u474e2b65ga0e7a13d24e6bc39@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Install of Fedora 10 and fedora 11 Beta fails because a issue in dmraid for
isw.
dmraid extract raid metadata from well known disk address, extract disk
serial numbers from metadata and compare these against serials obtained from
ioctl().
In this particular case serial number from ioctl() returns 20 char width
serial number and serial numbers in metadata are 16 chars width and for this
reason the string matching test fails.

I have submitted detail in bugzilla:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=490121

Anaconda depends on a successful result of dmraid set discovery, but this
particular issue doesn't allow to go further with the installation process.

The fix is very simple, but this fix is not included in fedora raid rpm. I'd
like to know who is the maintainer of this rpm package to add patch I
provided.

Thanks

Alberto Patino

-- 
Don't be evil!!!
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From debayanin at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 07:35:34 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 13:05:34 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/3 David Timms <dtimms at iinet.net.au>:
> However, this shouldn't stop you from trying to rephrase the problem, step
> back, and look at the bigger picture, without getting into details like
> voting.
>

Ok. My only aim was to make package installations an easier task. I am
no Fedora ambassador but I do try a lot to spread Fedora in my
locality. Recently we had a training program where we were teaching
school teachers how to use openoffice on Linux. When they ask how they
are supposed to install packages I shudder to explain to them Fedora's
process. They just wont follow all that. So we have to go to openSuSE
1 click install etc.
Anyways, lets rephrase the problem.
Lets assume 3rd party repositories are evil all the time and not worth
anyone's trust. Lets only concentrate on official repositories and
official packages. What if we create an application (gui) which allows
you to drag a package to it and it goes ahead and downloads all the
dependencies and creates a repo alongwith a nice little .catalog file.
Here is where the scope for a modified schema for the catalog file
comes too. Suppose i distribute a CD which has multiple repos. repo.
in "Fedora/audio" and I create another folder which contains multiple
catalog files for amarok, banshee, rhythmbox etc. I can ask users to
pop in the CDs and click on these icons. Thats is, and everything gets
installed.
So what I essentially want is to create an application that creates
custom repos. quickly/easily and generates catalog files.
Now currently catalog files do not have the ability to trigger
addition of repos. Lets forget the url part totally. Adding an url
will make it a security hazard. What if we can add 2 things instead:
1) Relative path of the repo in the media (folder wise)
2) Official Fedora repository name (eg: development, extras,) with
version (rawhide, 9.0 etc)

What this will enable is inter-repository dependency preservation only
for official fedora repos or on media as add-ons.
Lets forget about the voting and everything (i though it was beautiful
though). Lets just make repo. creation and package installation
easier.


-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From debayanin at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 07:44:59 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 13:14:59 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904040044r705a0380neaf9985643913b3a@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/4 Debayan Banerjee <debayanin at gmail.com>:
>
> Ok. My only aim was to make package installations an easier task. I am

Infact the application period for gsoc is over and the proposal that I
submitted has many things that this llist hates. I still want to know
what this list thinks would be a useful addition. I also added a point
about modifying Koji to generate these catalog files if possible.



-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 07:53:56 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 02:53:56 -0500
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904040050l11ebb4f8yc9343ae19e4d964f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040044r705a0380neaf9985643913b3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904040050l11ebb4f8yc9343ae19e4d964f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904040053q64ad8bf9t4d71426b0f0b77e@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not a fan of the 1-click. If you want it in the repo, then package it
and put it in the repo. If it can't be in the repo for legal reasons then
package it and submit it to rpmfusion.

If you have an outside rpm, then yum localinstall it.

-Adam
(From my G1)

On Apr 4, 2009 2:45 AM, "Debayan Banerjee" <debayanin at gmail.com> wrote:

2009/4/4 Debayan Banerjee <debayanin at gmail.com>:

> > Ok. My only aim was to make package installations an easier task. I am
Infact the application period for gsoc is over and the proposal that I
submitted has many things that this llist hates. I still want to know
what this list thinks would be a useful addition. I also added a point
about modifying Koji to generate these catalog files if possible.

-- Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com...
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From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Sat Apr  4 09:38:57 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 11:38:57 +0200
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238805746.23672.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238747739.3338.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238781080.8700.53.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238805746.23672.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1238837937.4470.9.camel@choeger6>


> 
> ... Really what I have in mind here is stuff like "Video playback locks
> up the machine", "OpenGL locks up the machine", "Second Life hangs the X
> server", "World of Warcraft crashes the X server", "This web site
> crashes the X server", "Rosegarden crashes the X server". All of which
> are entirely automateable, though the "hard locks the machine" cases
> will require some sort of hardware watchdog arrangement...
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=441665
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=474973
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=474977
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487432
> 
> At any rate, *some* testing is way better than none at all.

Sounds reasonable, but how do you turn SMOLT profiles into real test
machines? In the worst case you will end up building one test server for
every single bug. Without proper hardware virtualization (which we will
not see for the next 10-20 years) that testing thing would be more
expensive than just sending certified hardware to every user for free ;)
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From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Sat Apr  4 10:14:13 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Sat,  4 Apr 2009 10:14:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090404 changes
Message-ID: <20090404101413.F26221B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Sat Apr  4 06:15:04 UTC 2009

New package R-RUnit
        R Unit test framework
New package arm4
        Application Response Measurement V4.0
New package dcbd
        Intel EEDC Connection
New package python-polybori
        Framework for Boolean Rings
Removed package xorg-x11-drv-i810
Updated Packages:

audit-1.7.12-4.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Steve Grubb <sgrubb at redhat.com> 1.7.12-4
- Drop some debug code in libev


bluez-4.34-3.fc11
-----------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 4.34-2
- Don't crash when audio devices are registered and the adapter
  is removed

* Fri Apr 03 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 4.34-3
- Avoid disconnecting audio devices straight after they're connected


btanks-0.8.7686-9.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Alexey Torkhov <atorkhov at gmail.com> - 0.8.7686-10
- Make btanks-data noarch
- Rename libbt.so to libbtanks.so because of conflict with blackbox


dhcp-4.1.0-15.fc11
------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 12:4.1.0-15
- Obsolete libdhcp and libdhcp-devel (#493547)


ejabberd-2.0.5-2.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Peter Lemenkov <lemenkov at gmail.com> 2.0.5-2
- Really disable CAPTCHA

* Fri Apr 03 2009 Peter Lemenkov <lemenkov at gmail.com> 2.0.5-1
- Ver. 2.0.5
- Temporarily disabled CAPTCHA support


elinks-0.12-0.12.pre3.fc11
--------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Ondrej Vasik <ovasik at redhat.com> 0.12.0.12.pre3
- use word Elinks instead of Links in package description


empathy-2.26.0.1-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 2.26.0.1-2
- Update pkgconfig patch to add libcanberra-gtk requires. (#493954)


fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11
----------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> - 1.1.7-2
- Resolves: bug 493989
- Description: Admin Server: valgrind invalid read in security.c when installing CRL


ghc-X11-1.4.5-6.fc11
--------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Yaakov M. Nemoy <yankee at localhost.localdomain> - 1.4.5-6
- rebuild bump to raise EVR manually, to match with F-10 branch


gnu-efi-3.0e-7.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Peter Jones <pjones at redhat.com> - 3.0e-7
- Use nickc's workaround for #492183

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Peter Jones <pjones at redhat.com> - 3.0e-6.1
- Make a test package for nickc.

* Thu Mar 12 2009 Chris Lumens <clumens at redhat.com> 3.0e-6
- Add IA64 back into the list of build arches (#489544).


gupnp-vala-0.5.3-3.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> 0.5.3-3
- Remove noarch, as its not due to the pkgconfig file


ifuse-0.1.0-8.20090401git5db1ccc.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 0.1.0-7.20090308git8d6eebb
- Update to latest master

* Fri Apr 03 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 0.1.0-8.20090401git5db1ccc
- Update to github version


iscsi-initiator-utils-6.2.0.870-8.fc11
--------------------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at redhat.com> 6.2.0.870-8
- Stop the NM script from exiting with an error status when it
  didn't do anything (#493411)


kdegraphics-4.2.2-3.fc11
------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> 4.2.2-3
- work around Kolourpaint crash with Qt 4.5 (kde#183850)


kexec-tools-2.0.0-10.fc11
-------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Neil Horman <nhorman at redhat.com> - 2.0.0-10
- Fix problem with quoted CORE_COLLECTOR string (bz 493707)


libatasmart-0.5-1.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.5-1
- New upstream release


libgxim-0.3.3-2.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Akira TAGOH <tagoh at redhat.com> - 0.3.3-2
- Fix an error message about FontSet.


libiphone-0.1.0-11.20090325git443edc8.fc11
------------------------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 0.1.0-11.20090325git443edc8
- Update to latest master version


libprelude-0.9.21.2-9.fc11
--------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Steve Grubb <sgrubb at redhat.com> 0.9.21.2-9
- remove check section, doesn't work on anything except x86 anyways


libselinux-2.0.79-6.fc11
------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> - 2.0.79-6
- Fix Memory Leak


libsvm-2.89-1.fc11
------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Ding-Yi Chen <dchen at redhat.com> - 2.89-1
- Upstream Update to 2.89:
  + reduce input/loading time of svm-train/svm-predict by half
  + pointer function so users can specify their own outputs
  + remove info_flush() 
  + a extern variable libsvm_version
  + svm-train -q option (disable outputs)
  + svm-scale: warning if more nonzero produced
  + easy.py: popel.communiate() to avoid some deadlock (if lots of
    outputs when #classes is large)


libvirt-0.6.2-1.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Daniel P. Berrange  <berrange at redhat.com> - 0.6.1-6.fc11
- Fix typo in previous patch

* Fri Apr 03 2009 Daniel Veillard <veillard at redhat.com> - 0.6.2-1.fc11
- release of 0.6.2
- memory ballooning in QEMU
- SCSI HBA storage pool support
- support SASL auth for VNC server
- PCI passthrough in Xen driver
- assorted bug fixes


m17n-contrib-1.1.9-2.fc11
-------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Parag Nemade <pnemade at redhat.com> -1.1.9-2
- Resolves: rh#491794 [mai_IN] Removing @maithili-support removes m17n-db-hindi package
- Resolves: rh#493793 [mai_IN] No default keymap for language


nc-1.84-19.fc11
---------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Jan Zeleny <jzeleny at redhat.com> - 1.84-19
- updated network reading to be more efficient (#493129)


nemiver-0.6.6-1.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Dodji Seketeli <dodji at redhat.org> - 0.6.6-1
- Update to new upstream release (0.6.6)
- Drop patch http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=574915
  as included in upstream release.


ntfs-3g-2009.4.4-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 2:2009.4.4-1
- update to 4.4, patch for mount issue merged


perl-AnyEvent-4.350-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 kwizart < kwizart at gmail.com > - 4.350-1
- Update to 4.35   (rpm version : 4.350 )


perl-IO-Socket-SSL-1.24-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Paul Howarth <paul at city-fan.org> - 1.24-1
- Update to 1.24 (add verify hostname scheme ftp, same as http)


pyparted-2.0.10-1.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 2.0.10-1
- Upgrade to pyparted-2.0.10
      Fix LVM problems around parted.Disk.commit() (#491746)


python-virtinst-0.400.3-4.fc11
------------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Daniel P. Berrange <berrange at redhat.com> - 0.400.3-fc11
- Set SELinux context on $HOME/.virtinst to make kernel/initrd boot work (rhbz #491052)

* Fri Apr 03 2009 Daniel P. Berrange <berrange at redhat.com> - 0.400.4-fc11
- Attempt to fix SELinux labelling on CDROM ISOs used for installation


python-vobject-0.8.1c-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 James Bowes <jbowes at redhat.com> - 0.8.1c-1
- Update to 0.8.1c


qemu-0.10-5.fc11
----------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Mark McLoughlin <markmc at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-5
- Fix vga segfault under kvm-autotest (#494002)
- Kill kernelrelease hack; it's not needed
- Build with "make V=1" for more verbose logs


rednotebook-0.6.5-1.fc11
------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.6.5-1
- Updated to new upstream version 0.6.5


rpm-4.7.0-0.beta1.9.fc11
------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Panu Matilainen <pmatilai at redhat.com> - 4.7.0-0.beta1.9
- fix recorded file state of otherwise skipped files (#492947)
- compress ChangeLog, drop old CHANGES file (#492440)

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 4.7.0-0.beta1.8
- Fix sparcv9v and sparc64v targets


rsyslog-3.21.10-4.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Mar 31 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> 3.21.10-4
- Backport HUPisRestart option


sabayon-2.25.0-2.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Tomas Bzatek <tbzatek at redhat.com> - 2.25.0-2
- Fix some gconf crashes (gnome #576445)
- Temporarily switched back to Xnest to get working keyboard (gnome #576447)


selinux-policy-3.6.10-8.fc11
----------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.10-7
- Allow setroubelshoot exec* privs to prevent crash from bad libraries
- add cpufreqselector

* Fri Apr 03 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.10-8
- Add customizable_types for svirt

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.10-6
- Dontaudit listing of /root directory for cron system jobs


setroubleshoot-2.1.8-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> - 2.1.7-1
- Stop sending messages with scon or tcon == setroubleshootd_t

* Fri Apr 03 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> - 2.1.8-1
- Fix sealert segfault


setroubleshoot-plugins-2.0.15-1.fc11
------------------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 <dwalsh at redhat.com> - 2.0.15-1
- Update po files


shorewall-4.2.7-4.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Jonathan G. Underwood <jonathan.underwood at gmail.com> - 4.2.7-4
- Update shorewall-perl to version 4.2.7.1 (BZ 493984)

* Thu Mar 26 2009 Jonathan G. Underwood <jonathan.underwood at gmail.com> - 4.2.7-3
- Really make the perl compiler default


smc-fonts-04.1-6.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Pravin Satpute <psatpute at redhat.com> 04.1-6
- bugfix 493814
- added 'Provides' field for packages


spamass-milter-0.3.1-13.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Mar 18 2009 Paul Howarth <paul at city-fan.org> 0.3.1-13
- Call initscripts directly instead of via /sbin/service and fine-tune scriptlet
  dependencies
- Change sa-milt user's home directory from
  %{_localstatedir}/run/spamass-milter to %{_localstatedir}/lib/spamass-milter
  so as to retain directory contents across a reboot (#489995), and fix the home
  directory of any existing sa-milt account on upgrades


sqlite-3.6.12-1.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Panu Matilainen <pmatilai at redhat.com> - 3.6.12-1
- update to 3.6.12 (#492662)
- remove reference to non-existent sqlite-doc from manual (#488883)


subversion-api-docs-1.6.0-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Bojan Smojver <bojan at rexursive.com> 1.6.0-1
- bump up to 1.6.0


sugar-browse-107-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 107-1
- Don't pick up the sugar theme #684
- Add a static welcome-page #645


telepathy-gabble-0.7.25-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 0.7.25-1
- Update to 0.7.25.
- Bump minimum version of tp-glib-devel needed.


telepathy-glib-0.7.29-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 0.7.29-1
- Update to 0.7.29.


tig-0.14.1-1.fc11
-----------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 James Bowes <jbowes at redhat.com> 0.14.1-1
- tig-0.14.1


tigervnc-0.0.90-0.3.1.20090403svn3751.fc11
------------------------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Adam Tkac <atkac redhat com> 0.0.90-0.4.20090403svn3751
- update to r3751
- patches merged
  - tigervnc-xclients.patch
  - tigervnc-clipboard.patch
  - tigervnc-rh212985.patch
- basic RandR support in Xvnc (resize of the desktop)
- use built-in libjpeg (SSE2/MMX accelerated encoding on x86 platform)
- use Tight encoding by default
- use TigerVNC icons


upstart-0.3.9-23.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Casey Dahlin <cdahlin at redhat.com> - 0.3.9-23
- Add audit events patch from Steve Grubb <sgrubb at redhat.com> (Bug #470661)


xine-lib-1.1.16.3-1.fc11
------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 1.1.16.3-1
- xine-lib-1.1.16.3, plugin-abi 1.26


xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.1-4.fc11
------------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.1-3
- fix up r600 xv src offsets hopefully

* Fri Apr 03 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.1-4
- fix up r600 xv harder


xorg-x11-drv-nouveau-0.0.12-22.20090404git836d985.fc11
------------------------------------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 0.0.12-22.20090404git836d985
- use consistent connector names across all modesetting paths
- rh#493981


Summary:
Added Packages: 4
Removed Packages: 1
Modified Packages: 53
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.i586 requires libopensync.so.1
	m17n-contrib-maithili-1.1.9-2.fc11.noarch requires m17n-db-maithili >= 0:1.4.0
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.x86_64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	m17n-contrib-maithili-1.1.9-2.fc11.noarch requires m17n-db-maithili >= 0:1.4.0
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	asterisk-ldap-fds-1.6.1-0.23.rc1.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-1.1.3-1.fc11.noarch requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	ipa-server-1.2.1-4.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base >= 0:1.1.3
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc requires libopensync.so.1
	m17n-contrib-maithili-1.1.9-2.fc11.noarch requires m17n-db-maithili >= 0:1.4.0
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	asterisk-ldap-fds-1.6.1-0.23.rc1.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ds-1.1.3-1.fc11.noarch requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	ipa-server-1.2.1-4.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base >= 0:1.1.3
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	m17n-contrib-maithili-1.1.9-2.fc11.noarch requires m17n-db-maithili >= 0:1.4.0
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)





From julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com  Sat Apr  4 10:43:09 2009
From: julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com (Julian Aloofi)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 12:43:09 +0200
Subject: Monodevelop 2.0 & Mono 2.4 for F10?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904031605l6c16ee23n7dee7a7a268c085a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904031605l6c16ee23n7dee7a7a268c085a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238841789.3374.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I don't know about the concrete plans of the Mono team, but I think they
wont go for it in Fedora 10 because 11 releases in less than two months.
But maybe you'd better ask that question on the mailing list of the
Mono-SIG:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-mono

Am Freitag, den 03.04.2009, 18:05 -0500 schrieb King InuYasha:
> I saw on Mono's website that Mono 2.4 and MonoDevelop 2.0 were
> released. I checked koji and saw it was only being built for Fedora
> 11, and it failed at that. Can it be pushed back into Fedora 10 as
> well? 
> -- 
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
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From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Sat Apr  4 10:49:53 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?iso-8859-1?q?Skytt=E4?=)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 13:49:53 +0300
Subject: noarch rpm feature query/issue
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904031136l3a2c796cgb94e2effa0031ca5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5256d0b0904031119y2e75354dhb158571c38e5593d@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D655CB.5020808@redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904031136l3a2c796cgb94e2effa0031ca5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904041349.56151.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Friday 03 April 2009, Peter Robinson wrote:

> > The rpmdiff you're talking about is only run against noarch
> > *subpackages*. This is a noarch base package, and like every other
> > package, we assume the maintainer is handling arch issues appropriately.
> >  In this case, a noarch package should not be dropping files under
> > %{_lib}, since this will obviously be different depending on which arch
> > it was built on.  Maybe there should be a check in redhat-rpm-config to
> > avoid this?  I'm not sure how noarch packages are supposed to handle
> > pkgconfig files.
>
> Thanks for the clarification, ultimately it was an oversight on my
> part, and the package review. Maybe one of the easy ways to pick it up
> is a check in rpmlint.

s/a check/the check/

This is what rpmlint has to say about gupnp-vala.spec, 0.5.3-3%{?dist} from 
CVS's devel branch with "BuildArch: noarch" added:

$ rpmlint ./gupnp-vala.spec
./gupnp-vala.spec:61: W: libdir-macro-in-noarch-package (main package) 
%{_libdir}/pkgconfig/gupnp-vala-1.0.pc



From sandeen at redhat.com  Sat Apr  4 13:06:41 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:06:41 -0500
Subject: F11 beta install Fail, Fedora cannot stand opensolaris
In-Reply-To: <3da3b5b40904031859v5084b709h52ad695f834e94fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3da3b5b40904031700w51332508s8856e79f31adb530@mail.gmail.com>	<49D6A7ED.3070603@redhat.com>
	<20090404011431.GA30393@redhat.com>
	<3da3b5b40904031859v5084b709h52ad695f834e94fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D75B61.1000704@redhat.com>

Ahmed Kamal wrote:
> Why does the failure to mount a partition, kill the setup ?! IMO, the
> partition should just be ignored

Just FYI, a patch appeared on the anaconda list to fix behavior this
within 3 hours of your email.  :)

-Eric



From tmz at pobox.com  Sat Apr  4 14:03:44 2009
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 10:03:44 -0400
Subject: [fwd] Fedora 11 mirror layout
Message-ID: <20090404140344.GP4035@inocybe.teonanacatl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Jussi Lehtola <jussi.lehtola at iki.fi> -----

Hi,

this might be a stupid question, but why is the x86 arch in rawhide and
Fedora 11 install trees still i386, even though the RPM's are all
compiled --march=i586? Is it some kind of a problem related with
mirrors..?
-- 
Jussi Lehtola
Fedora Project Contributor
jussilehtola at fedoraproject.org

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now, now my good man, this is no time for making enemies.
    -- Voltaire, on his deathbed in response to a priest asking that
    he renounce Satan.

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From wtogami at redhat.com  Sat Apr  4 15:04:05 2009
From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 11:04:05 -0400
Subject: [fwd] Fedora 11 mirror layout
In-Reply-To: <20090404140344.GP4035@inocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <20090404140344.GP4035@inocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <49D776E5.4080905@redhat.com>

On 04/04/2009 10:03 AM, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from Jussi Lehtola<jussi.lehtola at iki.fi>  -----
>
> Hi,
>
> this might be a stupid question, but why is the x86 arch in rawhide and
> Fedora 11 install trees still i386, even though the RPM's are all
> compiled --march=i586? Is it some kind of a problem related with
> mirrors..?
>

* It makes no difference.
* F12 might go to i686 minimum with i586 as a secondary arch.  No sense 
renaming only to rename again a few months later.

Warren



From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr  4 17:41:56 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 12:41:56 -0500
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <1238508985.5005.1378.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49CD379D.8040104@verizon.net> <1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>
	<gqr9qk$mk3$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<faa16b610903301337i7cd94e4dr61c995c084231a37@mail.gmail.com>
	<gqraro$rqj$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238508985.5005.1378.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1238866916.18687.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 10:16 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: 
> So let's list the cases that zap would actually recover from:
> 
> 1: stuck grabs
> 2: focus reverts to None and your window manager is dead
> 3: X driver that's decided to stop rendering (or stop rendering
> correctly)
> 
> In case 3, you need to blow away the session and there's no getting
> around it.  So VT switch and killall gnome-session will do just fine.
> For case 2, I seem to recall this being an unpleasant requirement of the
> X protocol somewhere along the line; but I'm looking into it.
> 
> For case 1, you might be able to recover if you could just figure out
> which client was being obstreperous.  So clearly the right thing is to
> dump active grab state to the X log on VT switch.  If there's anything
> there, then you know who to blame and you can pkill just that and
> recover.  If there's not, then the session is doomed.
> 
> Something like this perhaps:
> 
> http://ajax.fedorapeople.org/patches/xserver-grab-debugging.patch
> 
> I mean, I know it's bad form to post code to a development list, but I
> hope I can be forgiven this time.

You are honestly expecting Aunt Tillie to log in to a console and grovel
through log files?

Here, how about a real life test case:

#include <stdlib.h>
#include <SDL/SDL.h>

int main(int argc, char *argv[]){
  if ( SDL_Init(SDL_INIT_VIDEO|SDL_INIT_TIMER) < 0 ) {
    fprintf(stderr, "Unable to init SDL: %s\n", SDL_GetError());
    exit(1);
  }
  SDL_Surface *screen;
  screen = SDL_SetVideoMode(640, 480, 32, SDL_SWSURFACE|SDL_FULLSCREEN);
  if ( screen == NULL ) {
    fprintf(stderr, "Unable to set 640x480 video: %s\n", SDL_GetError());
    exit(1);
  }
  SDL_WM_GrabInput(SDL_GRAB_ON);
  SDL_ShowCursor(SDL_DISABLE);
  SDL_Delay(1000);
  abort();
  return 0;
}

Compile with 'gcc -O2 -Wall -lSDL sdlcrash.c -o sdlcrash'.

Little Billy's game of Quake 3 crashes. How does he recover? What does
Aunt Tille tell him if he asks for help? (This seems to have gotten
better at some point, apparently the GNOME menu learned to stay in the
visible part of the goddamn screen...)

Now how about Seg, the guy who debugs Little Billy's game. Take out the
'SDL_FULLSCREEN' flag from sdlcrash, recompile and run it under gdb.
Wait for the crash... kablooey! I run in to this situation all the
goddamn time trying to debug Second Life. It grabs the mouse when you
click to move the camera, which is what you're doing most of the time.
If it crashes then you're screwed.

Is there some way to recover other than killing off the process, which
screws any chance of debugging it because it's no longer running? Remote
debugging isn't always particularly convenient.
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From jonstanley at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 18:39:00 2009
From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 14:39:00 -0400
Subject: Summary from 2009-04-03 FESCo meeeting
Message-ID: <da159fda0904041139n30eeefaen7376a428f37a5fb5@mail.gmail.com>

FESCo meeting summary for 2008/04/03

== Members Present ==

 * Jon Stanley (jds2001)
 * Kevin Fenzi (nirik)
 * David Woodhouse (dwmw2)
 * Dan Horak (sharkcz)
 * Josh Boyer (jwb)
 * Brian Pepple (bpepple)
 * Dennis Gilmore (dgilmore)
 * Bill Nottingham (notting)
 * Jarod Wilson (j-rod)

== Members Absent ==

 * None

== Sponsorship and provenpackager request - mmaslano ==

Provenpackager approved, sponsorship declined based on feedback from
the existing sponsors. There was some concern about being able to
guide the sponsoree in the best choices in packaging and reviewing.
However, we would be willing to entertain another request in a period
of a month or two.

== Sponsor request - kasal ==

This request was declined on the basis that the reasons presented for
becoming a sponsor was to avoid work in the event of some future
reseed of provenpackager, not the desire to assist and teach anybody
in becoming a Fedora packager.  As there is no such reseed now planned
or even likely, this request made very little sense.

== provenpackager request - caolanm ==

This request was approved.

== provenpackager request - stahnma  ==

This request was approved.

== FPC report - 2009-03-31 ==

Two drafts were approved:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/DocumentationNaming
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/EmbeddedDesktopFiles

== Non-provenpackager committable packages ==

NB: The decisions made by FESCo in this matter do not imply a
"free-for-all" on packages. If substantive changes to a package are
made without consulting with the maintainer and/or group, Bad
Things(TM) will occur.

Each request that was presented to FESCo was considered, with the
following resutls:

=== initscripts ===

Declined.  notting recused himself from this vote. being maintainer of
initscripts.

=== popt ===

Declined

=== ethtool ===

Declined.

=== lvm-team packages ===

Declined.

=== Firefox/Thunderbird/XULRunner ===

Approved.

=== hwdata ===

Declined.



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sat Apr  4 18:54:05 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 20:54:05 +0200
Subject: Another Dwarf Error with rawhide
References: <49D6CBE6.7070300@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gr8acd$kgj$1@ger.gmane.org>

Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> /usr/bin/ld: Dwarf Error: Offset (44013) greater than or equal to
> .debug_str size (35429).

Once again, I think the real errors are the undefined references.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sat Apr  4 18:58:26 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 20:58:26 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090404 changes
References: <20090404101413.F26221B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org>

Rawhide Report wrote:
> tigervnc-0.0.90-0.3.1.20090403svn3751.fc11
> ------------------------------------------
> * Fri Apr 03 2009 Adam Tkac <atkac redhat com> 0.0.90-0.4.20090403svn3751
[snip]
> - use built-in libjpeg (SSE2/MMX accelerated encoding on x86 platform)

Shouldn't this be added to the system libjpeg instead, so all programs
benefit?

        Kevin Kofler



From loupgaroublond at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 19:44:37 2009
From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 15:44:37 -0400
Subject: [Fedora-haskell-list] Re: Broken dependencies in Fedora 10 - 
	2009-04-02 (cabal2spec)
In-Reply-To: <340192305.4028641238816072603.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <20090402194231.11038.83547@faldor.intranet>
	<340192305.4028641238816072603.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <7f692fec0904041244m52f393adsedaa4e9107c09aba@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/3 Jens Petersen <petersen at redhat.com>:
> ----- "Michael Schwendt" <mschwendt at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Your following packages in the repository suffer from broken
>> dependencies:
>>
>> ======================================================================
>> The results in this summary consider Test Updates!
>> ======================================================================
>>
>> package: cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc10.noarch from fedora-updates-10-ppc64
>> ? unresolved deps:
>> ? ? ?ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
>
> This should get fixed when we finish porting cabal2spec from shell script to Haskell hopefully during the f12 cycle.

I started having a look at this last night, there's a good chance we
could have it ready for F11.

-Yaakov



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Sat Apr  4 19:52:16 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 15:52:16 -0400
Subject: Another Dwarf Error with rawhide
In-Reply-To: <gr8acd$kgj$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49D6CBE6.7070300@redhat.com> <gr8acd$kgj$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49D7BA70.8080503@redhat.com>

On 04/04/2009 02:54 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>> /usr/bin/ld: Dwarf Error: Offset (44013) greater than or equal to
>> .debug_str size (35429).
> 
> Once again, I think the real errors are the undefined references.

Except that the clucene library provides all those things.

~spot



From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 23:14:52 2009
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 04:44:52 +0530
Subject: pdf2djvu
Message-ID: <78323d480904041614w2b5a15c6m169fc122a2435e2a@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

What is the last stable configuration for compiling it?

Other distros have solved the lib related problem.


Best

A. Mani


-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc



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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAknX6uYACgkQunMISzvdfU5LFACaAwXqV7mJeIMCCJSSwQ92Y2FP
cUEAn3BurRCigy5VA6Qyn4g2nXkIUFZr
=/nuG
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From paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk  Sat Apr  4 23:53:28 2009
From: paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk (Paul)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 00:53:28 +0100
Subject: Monodevelop 2.0 & Mono 2.4 for F10?
In-Reply-To: <1238841789.3374.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <8278b1b0904031605l6c16ee23n7dee7a7a268c085a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238841789.3374.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1238889209.3756.1.camel@PB3.linux>

Hi,

> I don't know about the concrete plans of the Mono team, but I think they
> wont go for it in Fedora 10 because 11 releases in less than two months.

MD 2.0 is out there for rawhide with 1.9.1 being looked at for f10
updates testing.

2.4 is a sticking point as it's constantly falling over on koji for ppc
builds. It's been reported upstream, but nothing much is happening over
on that :-(

TTFN

Paul
-- 
?Sie k?nnen mich aufreizen und wirklich hei? machen!
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From gnomeuser at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 00:37:31 2009
From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 02:37:31 +0200
Subject: Monodevelop 2.0 & Mono 2.4 for F10?
In-Reply-To: <1238889209.3756.1.camel@PB3.linux>
References: <8278b1b0904031605l6c16ee23n7dee7a7a268c085a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238841789.3374.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238889209.3756.1.camel@PB3.linux>
Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0904041737t5ca9e3efi222118464e7bad06@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/5 Paul <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk>

> Hi,
>
> > I don't know about the concrete plans of the Mono team, but I think they
> > wont go for it in Fedora 10 because 11 releases in less than two months.
>
> MD 2.0 is out there for rawhide with 1.9.1 being looked at for f10
> updates testing.
>
> 2.4 is a sticking point as it's constantly falling over on koji for ppc
> builds. It's been reported upstream, but nothing much is happening over
> on that :-(


You could block it on PPC and file a bug which our talented the PPC arch
team can help you resolve. I don't assume you have hardware to test or
knowledge about the platform to solve the problem so it seems like an
acceptable bandaid for Fedora here and now.

- David
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From rodd at clarkson.id.au  Sun Apr  5 02:45:21 2009
From: rodd at clarkson.id.au (Rodd Clarkson)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 12:45:21 +1000
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <49D63DE3.2000608@googlemail.com>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>	<49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>
	<49D53AF8.2070702@fedoraproject.org> <49D544A2.6080103@googlemail.com>
	<1238725654.3991.29.camel@moose>  <49D63DE3.2000608@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <1238899521.3991.61.camel@moose>

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 17:48 +0100, psmith wrote:
> Rodd Clarkson wrote:
> > On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 00:05 +0100, psmith wrote:
> >   
> >> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >>     
> >>> psmith wrote:
> >>>
> >>>   
> >>>       
> >>>> but sometimes both of those don't work, as i've recently found out with
> >>>> both the i686 gnome and xfce live f11 beta iso's, livecd-iso-to-disk nor
> >>>> liveusb-creator create working usb images, though this may be the iso's
> >>>> themselves that are the problem as previous versions worked with f9 and
> >>>> f10 iso's :-/
> >>>>     
> >>>>         
> >>> Did you get the syslinux from rawhide before running the script? If not,
> >>> you might want to do yum --enablerepo=rawhide update syslinux and retry.
> >>>
> >>> Rahul
> >>>
> >>>   
> >>>       
> >> thanks rahul but i've tried that, even tried using the windoze version 
> >> of liveusb-creator to make the usb to get past that issue, also tried 
> >> selinux=0 on boot line as well as nomodeset, nothing is working on any 
> >> of the three machines here at home, do you any other suggestions that i 
> >> might try? as i'm completely stuck :-(
> >>     
> >
> > psmith
> >
> > does the usb stick(s) have spaces in the volume name?
> >
> > By this I mean, when you look at the mount name in computer, are there
> > spaces in the name for the device that appears?
> >
> > If so, try this:
> >
> > 1. edit /etc/mtools.conf to create a drive for the device.  For example,
> > when I plug a USB key into my laptop it appears as /dev/sdb1, so in
> > mtools.conf I have a line:
> >
> > drive f: file="/dev/sdb1"
> >
> > 2. at a terminal prompt run:
> >
> > $ mlabel <drive letter>:<new_label>
> >
> > eg. I ran: mlabel f:4GB_USB
> >
> > Make sure there are no spaces in the 'new_label' name.
> >
> > Then try again.
> >
> >
> > R.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   
> thanks for the info rodd but still no luck :/ the usb volume was already 
> named F11beta and changing the mtools.conf and re-making the live usb 
> resulted in the same problems, i think there may be problems with the 
> actual iso's as i'm starting to see a few bugs pop up with similar 
> problems to mine, as well as the already worked out grey screen selinux 
> bug. looks like i'll have to pass on testing the beta and just wait for 
> preview or final :(
> 
> phil

You can check the iso file using some command that I forget and
comparing it with a value somewhere.  Argh, that's too vague.

Let's see.  If you run:

sha1sum <file.iso>

and then compare it with this CHECKSUM file:
http://mirror.internode.on.net/pub/fedora/linux/releases/test/11-Beta/Fedora/i386/iso/Fedora-11-Beta-i386-CHECKSUM 

Then you can see if the iso is corrupt or not.

The stuff above regarding the volume name is only an issue (or I'm
pretty sure it is) if you've got a space in the volume name (for example
"my volume".)


R.



-- 
MOOSE technology
po box 6061, north croydon, vic 3136     mobile: 0403 338 731
http://www.moosetech.com.au               phone: 03 9726 9457
mailto:rodd at moosetech.com.au                fax: 03 9726 9456

"Share your knowledge.  It is a way to achieve immortality."
                                            -- The Dalai Lama
-- 
"It's a fine line between denial and faith.
 It's much better on my side"



From nman64 at n-man.com  Sun Apr  5 06:13:47 2009
From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 01:13:47 -0500
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904050113.53374.nman64@n-man.com>

On Saturday 04 April 2009 02:35:34 Debayan Banerjee wrote:
>
> Ok. My only aim was to make package installations an easier task. I am
> no Fedora ambassador but I do try a lot to spread Fedora in my
> locality. Recently we had a training program where we were teaching
> school teachers how to use openoffice on Linux. When they ask how they
> are supposed to install packages I shudder to explain to them Fedora's
> process. They just wont follow all that. So we have to go to openSuSE
> 1 click install etc.
> Anyways, lets rephrase the problem.
> Lets assume 3rd party repositories are evil all the time and not worth
> anyone's trust. Lets only concentrate on official repositories and
> official packages. What if we create an application (gui) which allows
> you to drag a package to it and it goes ahead and downloads all the
> dependencies and creates a repo alongwith a nice little .catalog file.
<snip>

Can you provide a usage case for this that is not covered by the features 
already provided with Fedora media, the Fedora repositories and PackageKit?

If you have Fedora media, then there is no real need to prepare additional 
media to deliver packages.  If you have access to the media or the 
repositories, then the PackageKit-powered tools will allow you to easily 
select and install any of the packages that the Fedora Project has to offer.  
Finally, if there is a need to distribute media with fresh packages for a 
Fedora install, PackageKit's Service Pack Creator will let you do that.  There 
is even a PackageKit browser plugin so that a web page can let you kick off the 
installation of packages from the configured repositories.  I certainly believe 
the PackageKit tools can use improvement, but we do not need to reinvent 
anything they already provide.

I would consider your idea of providing a CD with icons to kick off 
installations of specific packages to be a special use case and not something 
we would really want to encourage.  The package management GUIs are just as 
easy to use and do not create the trust issue for a user being handed a disc, 
but for such a disc, you could easily use scripts that launch tools we already 
have.  Consider creating shell scripts containing lines like the following:

dbus-send --dest=org.freedesktop.PackageKit \
 /org/freedesktop/PackageKit \
 org.freedesktop.PackageKit.InstallPackageName \
 uint32:0 uint32:0 string:rhythmbox

Of course, the scripts could be made complex enough to check if the package is 
already installed, if it is being run on a Fedora system, if PackageKit is 
running, etc.

-- 
Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes
nman64 at n-man.com

http://n-man.com/

LinkedIn:
http://linkedin.com/in/nman64

Have I been helpful?  Rate my assistance!
http://rate.affero.net/nman64/

All messages cryptographically signed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP
-- 


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From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Sun Apr  5 07:54:47 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 09:54:47 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090404 changes
In-Reply-To: <gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090404101413.F26221B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49D863C7.7070500@hhs.nl>

On 04/04/2009 08:58 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Rawhide Report wrote:
>> tigervnc-0.0.90-0.3.1.20090403svn3751.fc11
>> ------------------------------------------
>> * Fri Apr 03 2009 Adam Tkac<atkac redhat com>  0.0.90-0.4.20090403svn3751
> [snip]
>> - use built-in libjpeg (SSE2/MMX accelerated encoding on x86 platform)
>
> Shouldn't this be added to the system libjpeg instead, so all programs
> benefit?
>
>          Kevin Kofler
>

+1

Regards,

Hans



From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Sun Apr  5 08:06:29 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 10:06:29 +0200
Subject: Another Dwarf Error with rawhide
In-Reply-To: <49D7BA70.8080503@redhat.com>
References: <49D6CBE6.7070300@redhat.com> <gr8acd$kgj$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49D7BA70.8080503@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D86685.5010708@hhs.nl>

On 04/04/2009 09:52 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> On 04/04/2009 02:54 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>> /usr/bin/ld: Dwarf Error: Offset (44013) greater than or equal to
>>> .debug_str size (35429).
>> Once again, I think the real errors are the undefined references.
>
> Except that the clucene library provides all those things.
>

I've hit those dwarf errors too, and in my experience they go
away when you solve the undefined references.

In my case templates were causing issues, but that does not seem
to be the case here.

Can you post a src.rpm or something like that, then I can try to
reproduce the error and see if I can fix the undefined references.

Regards,

Hans



From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr  5 09:06:48 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 04:06:48 -0500
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238837937.4470.9.camel@choeger6>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238747739.3338.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238781080.8700.53.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238805746.23672.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238837937.4470.9.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <1238922409.8636.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-04 at 11:38 +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> > 
> > ... Really what I have in mind here is stuff like "Video playback locks
> > up the machine", "OpenGL locks up the machine", "Second Life hangs the X
> > server", "World of Warcraft crashes the X server", "This web site
> > crashes the X server", "Rosegarden crashes the X server". All of which
> > are entirely automateable, though the "hard locks the machine" cases
> > will require some sort of hardware watchdog arrangement...
> > 
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=441665
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=474973
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=474977
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487432
> > 
> > At any rate, *some* testing is way better than none at all.
> 
> Sounds reasonable, but how do you turn SMOLT profiles into real test
> machines? In the worst case you will end up building one test server for
> every single bug. Without proper hardware virtualization (which we will
> not see for the next 10-20 years) that testing thing would be more
> expensive than just sending certified hardware to every user for free ;)

All the intel hardware I've been having problems with is stuff I didn't
even pay for. 830M laptop, D845 motherboards, all were hand me downs.
The rest is stuff you can probably ebay for $20-$40 at this point. Its
not really that costly. The new expensive shinies are already being
bought, its the older hardware that needs better coverage.
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From paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk  Sun Apr  5 09:38:00 2009
From: paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk (Paul)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 10:38:00 +0100
Subject: Monodevelop 2.0 & Mono 2.4 for F10?
In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0904041737t5ca9e3efi222118464e7bad06@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904031605l6c16ee23n7dee7a7a268c085a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238841789.3374.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238889209.3756.1.camel@PB3.linux>
	<1dedbbfc0904041737t5ca9e3efi222118464e7bad06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238924280.3756.2.camel@PB3.linux>

Hi,

>         
>         > I don't know about the concrete plans of the Mono team, but
>         I think they
>         > wont go for it in Fedora 10 because 11 releases in less than
>         two months.
>         
>         MD 2.0 is out there for rawhide with 1.9.1 being looked at for
>         f10
>         updates testing.
>         
>         2.4 is a sticking point as it's constantly falling over on
>         koji for ppc
>         builds. It's been reported upstream, but nothing much is
>         happening over
>         on that :-(
> 
> You could block it on PPC and file a bug which our talented the PPC
> arch team can help you resolve. I don't assume you have hardware to
> test or knowledge about the platform to solve the problem so it seems
> like an acceptable bandaid for Fedora here and now.

Looks like I'll have to do that then - not the best solution though :-(

TTFN

Paul
-- 
?Sie k?nnen mich aufreizen und wirklich hei? machen!
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From gnomeuser at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 09:54:42 2009
From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 11:54:42 +0200
Subject: Monodevelop 2.0 & Mono 2.4 for F10?
In-Reply-To: <1238924280.3756.2.camel@PB3.linux>
References: <8278b1b0904031605l6c16ee23n7dee7a7a268c085a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238841789.3374.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238889209.3756.1.camel@PB3.linux>
	<1dedbbfc0904041737t5ca9e3efi222118464e7bad06@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238924280.3756.2.camel@PB3.linux>
Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0904050254t45896757u6ee6a17e76f24336@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/5 Paul <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk>

> Hi,
>
> >
> >         > I don't know about the concrete plans of the Mono team, but
> >         I think they
> >         > wont go for it in Fedora 10 because 11 releases in less than
> >         two months.
> >
> >         MD 2.0 is out there for rawhide with 1.9.1 being looked at for
> >         f10
> >         updates testing.
> >
> >         2.4 is a sticking point as it's constantly falling over on
> >         koji for ppc
> >         builds. It's been reported upstream, but nothing much is
> >         happening over
> >         on that :-(
> >
> > You could block it on PPC and file a bug which our talented the PPC
> > arch team can help you resolve. I don't assume you have hardware to
> > test or knowledge about the platform to solve the problem so it seems
> > like an acceptable bandaid for Fedora here and now.
>
> Looks like I'll have to do that then - not the best solution though :-(
>

Agreed but as always, patches are welcome and if not to assist package
maintainers like yourself with issues like this I can't think of a more
perfect use for our arch teams. The wiki has documentation on the correct
way to leverage these fine peoples expertise btw.

- David
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From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr  5 11:01:55 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Sun,  5 Apr 2009 11:01:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090405 changes
Message-ID: <20090405110155.3D0311B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Sun Apr  5 06:15:05 UTC 2009

New package eclipse-dltk
        Dynamic Languages Toolkit (DLTK) Eclipse plugin
New package perl-Log-Trace
        A unified approach to tracing
New package perl-PlRPC
        Interface for building pServer Clients
New package qt-creator
        Lightweight and cross-platform IDE for Qt
Updated Packages:

awn-extras-applets-0.3.2.1-7.fc11
---------------------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.3.2.1-4
- New upstream release
- Add devel package
- Update schemas scriplets
- Fix rpmlint warnings about non-executable scripts
- Add gnome-icon-cache scriplet
- Add shared library scriplet
- clean up files list
- Use python_sitearch, not sitelib as package is arch.

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.3.2.1-7
- Add patch to fix build on x86_64
- Enable webkit-gtk powered applets


bug-buddy-2.26.0-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.0-2
- Support build-id (#490778)


clive-2.1.10-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Nicoleau Fabien <nicoleau.fabien at gmail.com> 2.1.10-1
- Rebuild for 2.1.10


deco-archive-1.4-3.fc11
-----------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget [DOT] fedora [AT] gmail [DOT] com> 1.4-3
- Handle .zoo format with unzoo (if installed)


edb-0.9.8-1.fc11
----------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Nicoleau Fabien <nicoleau.fabien at gmail.com> 0.9.8-1
- Rebuild for 0.9.8


fotowall-0.4-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Nicoleau Fabien <nicoleau.fabien at gmail.com> - 1:0.4-1
- Rebuild for 0.4


gigolo-0.3.1-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Kevin Fenzi <kevin at tummy.com> - 0.3.1-1
- Update to 0.3.1


git-1.6.2.2-1.fc11
------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Todd Zullinger <tmz at pobox.com> - 1.6.2.2-1
- git-1.6.2.2
- Include contrib/ dir in %doc (bug 492490)
- Don't set DOCBOOK_XSL_172, fix the '\&.ft' with sed (bug 485161)
- Ignore Branches output from cvsps-2.2b1 (bug 490602)
- Remove shebang from bash-completion script
- Include README in gitweb subpackage


gnome-sharp-2.24.0-3.fc11
-------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.24.0-3
- Make tomboy work before gconfd is started (#494065)


grib_api-1.7.0-3.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Jeroen van Meeuwen <j.van.meeuwen at ogd.nl> - 1.7.0-3
- Fix file conflict (#492936)


jd-2.4.0-0.1.svn2765_trunk.fc11
-------------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
- Update to latest trunk


kde-i18n-3.5.10-4.fc11
----------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> 1:3.5.10-4
- remove kdesvn-build documentation, conflicts with kde-l10n 4.2.2


kdegames-4.2.2-4.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.2.2-4
- fix KsirK crash when starting a local game with Qt 4.5 (#486380, kde#187235)


merkaartor-0.13.1-1.fc11
------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Sven Lankes <sven at lank.es> - 0.13.1-1
- new upstream release


perl-Class-MOP-0.80-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.80-1
- update to 0.80


perl-Data-Dump-Streamer-2.09-1.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Iain Arnell <iarnell at gmail.com> 2.09-1
- update to latest upstream


pyroom-0.4.1-1.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Mar 25 2009 Sven Lankes <sven at lank.es> - 0.4.1-1
- new upstream release
- remove desktop-file-patch
- add patch to fix mo-file install (patch received from upstream)


python-Coherence-0.6.2-2.fc11
-----------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 0.6.2-2
- Re-add re-needed re-python-twisted re-quirements (#485093).
- Require dbus for proper parent directory ownership.


rpmdevtools-7.1-1.fc11
----------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 7.1-1
- 7.1.
- Make rpmdev-md5 and friends work on non-srpm package files too.

* Sun Mar 15 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi>
- Add bash completion.

* Mon Mar 09 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi>
- Add query format option to rmdevelrpms, sort output by NEVRA.


scite-1.77-1.fc11
-----------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Jorge Torres <jtorresh at gmail.com> 1.77-1
- Upgrade to 1.77


spring-installer-20090316-6.fc11
--------------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Aurelien Bompard <abompard at fedoraproject.org> 20090316-5
- fix versioned dependency

* Sat Apr 04 2009 Aurelien Bompard <abompard at fedoraproject.org> 20090316-6
- fix patch and buildreq


tuxguitar-1.1-1.fc11
--------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget[DOT]fedora[AT]gmail[DOT]com>> - 1.1-1
- New upstream version
- Clean-up the SPEC file
- Include GCJ-AOT-bits


Summary:
Added Packages: 4
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 22
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.i586 requires libopensync.so.1
	m17n-contrib-maithili-1.1.9-2.fc11.noarch requires m17n-db-maithili >= 0:1.4.0
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.x86_64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	m17n-contrib-maithili-1.1.9-2.fc11.noarch requires m17n-db-maithili >= 0:1.4.0
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	asterisk-ldap-fds-1.6.1-0.23.rc1.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-1.1.3-1.fc11.noarch requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	ipa-server-1.2.1-4.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base >= 0:1.1.3
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc requires libopensync.so.1
	m17n-contrib-maithili-1.1.9-2.fc11.noarch requires m17n-db-maithili >= 0:1.4.0
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	asterisk-ldap-fds-1.6.1-0.23.rc1.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ds-1.1.3-1.fc11.noarch requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	ipa-server-1.2.1-4.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base >= 0:1.1.3
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	m17n-contrib-maithili-1.1.9-2.fc11.noarch requires m17n-db-maithili >= 0:1.4.0
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)





From mschwendt at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 11:31:04 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 13:31:04 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090405 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090405110155.3D0311B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090405110155.3D0311B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090405133104.0f3e019f@faldor.intranet>

On Sun,  5 Apr 2009 11:01:55 +0000 (UTC), Rawhide wrote:

> awn-extras-applets-0.3.2.1-7.fc11
> ---------------------------------
> * Thu Apr 02 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.3.2.1-4
> - New upstream release
> - Add devel package
> - Update schemas scriplets
> - Fix rpmlint warnings about non-executable scripts
> - Add gnome-icon-cache scriplet
> - Add shared library scriplet
> - clean up files list
> - Use python_sitearch, not sitelib as package is arch.
> 
> * Thu Apr 02 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.3.2.1-7
> - Add patch to fix build on x86_64
> - Enable webkit-gtk powered applets

sigh-o-matic! :-/

Order of changelog entries is still wrong. Oldest entry comes first in the
metadata because it is reverse()d by createrepo (why?). This now affects
repoview at RPM Fusion, too, and any tools that read the changelog entries
would need to reverse() the entries once more.



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Sun Apr  5 13:26:41 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 09:26:41 -0400
Subject: Another Dwarf Error with rawhide
In-Reply-To: <49D86685.5010708@hhs.nl>
References: <49D6CBE6.7070300@redhat.com>
	<gr8acd$kgj$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49D7BA70.8080503@redhat.com>
	<49D86685.5010708@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <49D8B191.3080909@redhat.com>

On 04/05/2009 04:06 AM, Hans de Goede wrote:
> On 04/04/2009 09:52 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>> On 04/04/2009 02:54 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>>> /usr/bin/ld: Dwarf Error: Offset (44013) greater than or equal to
>>>> .debug_str size (35429).
>>> Once again, I think the real errors are the undefined references.
>>
>> Except that the clucene library provides all those things.
>>
> 
> I've hit those dwarf errors too, and in my experience they go
> away when you solve the undefined references.
> 
> In my case templates were causing issues, but that does not seem
> to be the case here.
> 
> Can you post a src.rpm or something like that, then I can try to
> reproduce the error and see if I can fix the undefined references.

http://www.auroralinux.org/people/spot/review/new/flock-2.0-1.fc11.src.rpm

Thanks in advance,

~spot



From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Sun Apr  5 14:39:58 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 16:39:58 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
Message-ID: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>

Hi All,

I've just packaged this cool recently set free old style
adventure game drascula, including music and subtitles
in French, German, Spanish and Italian.

I'm looking for someone to swap reviews with for the
main package, the music package and the subtitles.

All 3 are simple straightforward noarch data only
packages:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494195
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494197
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494199

So who wants to swap (up to)  3 reviews with me?

Regards,

Hans



From felix at fetzig.org  Sun Apr  5 16:43:17 2009
From: felix at fetzig.org (Felix Kaechele)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:43:17 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <49D8DFA5.4070300@fetzig.org>

Am 05.04.2009 16:39, schrieb Hans de Goede:

> So who wants to swap (up to) 3 reviews with me?

Me! If you take:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491518 (openttd)
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491519 (openttd-opengfx)
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491520 (shntool)

shntool and openttd-opengfx should dead easy. openttd should be easy as 
well.

Felix



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Sun Apr  5 16:56:09 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:56:09 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>

Hans de Goede wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I've just packaged this cool recently set free old style
> adventure game drascula, including music and subtitles
> in French, German, Spanish and Italian.

Well I am reading this in drascula-music's readme.txt:

 > 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes
 > reselling the
 > game as an individual item.

Sounds like a "non-free" package to me.

Ralf



From fedora at camperquake.de  Sun Apr  5 17:32:39 2009
From: fedora at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:32:39 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49D8DFA5.4070300@fetzig.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
	<49D8DFA5.4070300@fetzig.org>
Message-ID: <20090405193239.58bf7aa5@lain.camperquake.de>

Hi.

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:43:17 +0200, Felix Kaechele wrote

> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491518 (openttd)
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491519 (openttd-opengfx)
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491520 (shntool)
> 
> shntool and openttd-opengfx should dead easy. openttd should be easy
> as well.

Is there free content for openttd? AFAIK (which may be wrong in the meantime)
it still requires the datafiles from TTD.



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 17:36:29 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:36:29 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20090405193629.6b97b99c@faldor.intranet>

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:56:09 +0200, Ralf wrote:

> Hans de Goede wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > I've just packaged this cool recently set free old style
> > adventure game drascula, including music and subtitles
> > in French, German, Spanish and Italian.
> 
> Well I am reading this in drascula-music's readme.txt:
> 
>  > 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes
>  > reselling the
>  > game as an individual item.
> 
> Sounds like a "non-free" package to me.

 2) You may charge a reasonable copying fee for this archive, and may
distribute it in aggregate as part of a larger and possibly commercial software
distribution (such as a Linux distribution or magazine coverdisk). You must
provide proper attribution and ensure that this Readme and all associated
copyright notices and disclaimers are left intact.



From cdahlin at redhat.com  Sun Apr  5 17:38:22 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 13:38:22 -0400
Subject: RPM Idea...
In-Reply-To: <49D6448D.6070906@gnat.ca>
References: <49D6448D.6070906@gnat.ca>
Message-ID: <49D8EC8E.7020908@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Nathanael D. Noblet wrote:
> Hello,
>   With absolutely no knowledge of how complex an idea/request this is.
> But I was about to try to file a bug against a fedora package, and
> wondered, is this even *from* fedora.. where's the upstream
> bugzilla/tracker.. etc. So I wondered, how it sounds to have a field in
> the spec file with urls of bugzilla locations (in my mind even better if
> possible would be to the direct url to post a bug)
> 
> So for example in my case I'm posting a bug against mkinitrd. It would
> be great if I could do rpm -qi mkinitrd and find
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora&component=mkinitrd
> 
> The bug I'm filing wouldn't trigger or be able to use bug-buddy. You
> could also perhaps have more than one location for upstream projects
> which have their own bug tracker...
> 
> Anyway, just a thought... I realize it isn't perhaps perfect, but would
> help... Heck from there it would be simpler to tie into something like
> bug-buddy or some other method to post bugs through a 'local' gui which
> knows how to get the right info from the rpm as to where to post bugs,
> and what type of bug posting system it is...
> 

Adding non-functional metadata to rpm doesn't seem to be difficult, and
it looks to me like it would be handled just fine by versions that
didn't "support" the new tag (its been awhile since I looked at the rpm
file format though, so I could be wrong). I'd take it upstream to learn
more about the policies and procedures for this sort of change.

- --CJD
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAknY7I4ACgkQIHOkVH4pLz6lFQCeLPi6T5NxTljtxqRk6o4hc+go
zfYAn1DVvgjesez+ahtRGlQm6MpkHJJd
=fZab
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Sun Apr  5 17:45:47 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 19:45:47 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>

On 04/05/2009 06:56 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Hans de Goede wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I've just packaged this cool recently set free old style
>> adventure game drascula, including music and subtitles
>> in French, German, Spanish and Italian.
>
> Well I am reading this in drascula-music's readme.txt:
>
>  > 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes
>  > reselling the
>  > game as an individual item.
>
> Sounds like a "non-free" package to me.
>

The license for this package has been vetted ok by Spot, that is the
readme.txt contains the *exact* same license text as many other
games set free in cooperation between the original right holders and
the scummvm project, and this license has been approved for Fedora,
see:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-November/msg00020.html

Regards,

Hans



From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Sun Apr  5 17:59:31 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 19:59:31 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49D8DFA5.4070300@fetzig.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8DFA5.4070300@fetzig.org>
Message-ID: <49D8F183.609@hhs.nl>

On 04/05/2009 06:43 PM, Felix Kaechele wrote:
> Am 05.04.2009 16:39, schrieb Hans de Goede:
>
>> So who wants to swap (up to) 3 reviews with me?
>
> Me! If you take:
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491518 (openttd)
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491519 (openttd-opengfx)
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491520 (shntool)
>
> shntool and openttd-opengfx should dead easy. openttd should be easy as
> well.
>

Deal!

Regards,

Hans



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr  5 18:20:50 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:20:50 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8DFA5.4070300@fetzig.org>
	<20090405193239.58bf7aa5@lain.camperquake.de>
Message-ID: <grasq2$63e$1@ger.gmane.org>

Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
> Is there free content for openttd?

That's what openttd-opengfx is.

        Kevin Kofler



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Sun Apr  5 18:29:03 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:29:03 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <20090405193629.6b97b99c@faldor.intranet>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
	<20090405193629.6b97b99c@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <49D8F86F.6050105@freenet.de>

Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:56:09 +0200, Ralf wrote:
> 
>> Hans de Goede wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I've just packaged this cool recently set free old style
>>> adventure game drascula, including music and subtitles
>>> in French, German, Spanish and Italian.
>> Well I am reading this in drascula-music's readme.txt:
>>
>>  > 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes
>>  > reselling the
>>  > game as an individual item.
>>
>> Sounds like a "non-free" package to me.
> 
>  2) You may charge a reasonable copying fee for this archive, and may
> distribute it in aggregate as part of a larger and possibly commercial software
> distribution (such as a Linux distribution or magazine coverdisk).

== you may distribute it as part of Fedora.

The clause I cited, restricts commercial use of the SW itself. One of 
the basic freedoms of open source software.



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 18:51:23 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 20:51:23 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49D8F86F.6050105@freenet.de>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
	<20090405193629.6b97b99c@faldor.intranet>
	<49D8F86F.6050105@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20090405205123.0f0e405c@faldor.intranet>

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:29:03 +0200, Ralf wrote:

> Michael Schwendt wrote:
> > On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:56:09 +0200, Ralf wrote:
> > 
> >> Hans de Goede wrote:
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >>> I've just packaged this cool recently set free old style
> >>> adventure game drascula, including music and subtitles
> >>> in French, German, Spanish and Italian.
> >> Well I am reading this in drascula-music's readme.txt:
> >>
> >>  > 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes
> >>  > reselling the
> >>  > game as an individual item.
> >>
> >> Sounds like a "non-free" package to me.
> > 
> >  2) You may charge a reasonable copying fee for this archive, and may
> > distribute it in aggregate as part of a larger and possibly commercial software
> > distribution (such as a Linux distribution or magazine coverdisk).
> 
> == you may distribute it as part of Fedora.

No, as part of "a larger and possibly commercial software distribution".

> The clause I cited, restricts commercial use of the SW itself. One of 
> the basic freedoms of open source software.

It's content, not code. The code (scummvm) is GPLv2+.



From louisg00 at bellsouth.net  Sun Apr  5 20:12:10 2009
From: louisg00 at bellsouth.net (Louis E Garcia II)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 16:12:10 -0400
Subject: No sound with fc11b
Message-ID: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Just install f11 beta and have no sound at all. Worked with f10 fine.
This is and intel core duo laptop. I have no idea were to begin
debugging. Any thoughts?

-Thanks



From rjones at redhat.com  Sun Apr  5 20:17:57 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 21:17:57 +0100
Subject: an interface for filesystem preallocation that doesn't suck?
In-Reply-To: <49D53FB7.5020401@redhat.com>
References: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>
	<49D5356F.6030909@redhat.com>
	<7D392716F0C46381C94DF6A2@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>
	<49D53FB7.5020401@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090405201729.GA17730@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 05:44:07PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
> James Ralston wrote:
> 
> > I intend to start filing bugs against anything I can find that doesn't
> > use fallocate(), yes.  But I needed a better implementation to suggest
> > than posix_fallocate().
> 
> Cool.  Feel free to cc: me on them?
> 
> FWIW transmission already can do it though it requires some
> undocumented(?) configuration.
> 
> It also gives you the choice of posix_fallocate(), or not.   It'd be
> nice if you could say "fallocate if you've got it; but no
> posix_fallocate, thanks"

I just wrote a new program that uses posix_fallocate to allocate large
files (of zeroes).  Should I change it to use fallocate?  What's the
recommended code snippet / autoconf configuration?

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
New in Fedora 11: Fedora Windows cross-compiler. Compile Windows
programs, test, and build Windows installers. Over 70 libraries supprt'd
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MinGW http://www.annexia.org/fedora_mingw



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Sun Apr  5 20:39:38 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 21:39:38 +0100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238899521.3991.61.camel@moose>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<1238705266.32414.3.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>	<20090402215334.GA5309@redhat.com>	<49D535E4.8030808@googlemail.com>	<49D53AF8.2070702@fedoraproject.org>
	<49D544A2.6080103@googlemail.com>	<1238725654.3991.29.camel@moose>
	<49D63DE3.2000608@googlemail.com> <1238899521.3991.61.camel@moose>
Message-ID: <49D9170A.9040701@googlemail.com>

Rodd Clarkson wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 17:48 +0100, psmith wrote:
>   
>> Rodd Clarkson wrote:
>>     
>>> On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 00:05 +0100, psmith wrote:
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> psmith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> but sometimes both of those don't work, as i've recently found out with
>>>>>> both the i686 gnome and xfce live f11 beta iso's, livecd-iso-to-disk nor
>>>>>> liveusb-creator create working usb images, though this may be the iso's
>>>>>> themselves that are the problem as previous versions worked with f9 and
>>>>>> f10 iso's :-/
>>>>>>     
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>> Did you get the syslinux from rawhide before running the script? If not,
>>>>> you might want to do yum --enablerepo=rawhide update syslinux and retry.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rahul
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> thanks rahul but i've tried that, even tried using the windoze version 
>>>> of liveusb-creator to make the usb to get past that issue, also tried 
>>>> selinux=0 on boot line as well as nomodeset, nothing is working on any 
>>>> of the three machines here at home, do you any other suggestions that i 
>>>> might try? as i'm completely stuck :-(
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> psmith
>>>
>>> does the usb stick(s) have spaces in the volume name?
>>>
>>> By this I mean, when you look at the mount name in computer, are there
>>> spaces in the name for the device that appears?
>>>
>>> If so, try this:
>>>
>>> 1. edit /etc/mtools.conf to create a drive for the device.  For example,
>>> when I plug a USB key into my laptop it appears as /dev/sdb1, so in
>>> mtools.conf I have a line:
>>>
>>> drive f: file="/dev/sdb1"
>>>
>>> 2. at a terminal prompt run:
>>>
>>> $ mlabel <drive letter>:<new_label>
>>>
>>> eg. I ran: mlabel f:4GB_USB
>>>
>>> Make sure there are no spaces in the 'new_label' name.
>>>
>>> Then try again.
>>>
>>>
>>> R.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>> thanks for the info rodd but still no luck :/ the usb volume was already 
>> named F11beta and changing the mtools.conf and re-making the live usb 
>> resulted in the same problems, i think there may be problems with the 
>> actual iso's as i'm starting to see a few bugs pop up with similar 
>> problems to mine, as well as the already worked out grey screen selinux 
>> bug. looks like i'll have to pass on testing the beta and just wait for 
>> preview or final :(
>>
>> phil
>>     
>
> You can check the iso file using some command that I forget and
> comparing it with a value somewhere.  Argh, that's too vague.
>
> Let's see.  If you run:
>
> sha1sum <file.iso>
>
> and then compare it with this CHECKSUM file:
> http://mirror.internode.on.net/pub/fedora/linux/releases/test/11-Beta/Fedora/i386/iso/Fedora-11-Beta-i386-CHECKSUM 
>
> Then you can see if the iso is corrupt or not.
>
> The stuff above regarding the volume name is only an issue (or I'm
> pretty sure it is) if you've got a space in the volume name (for example
> "my volume".)
>
>
> R.
>
>
>
>   
yeah i checked the iso for validity though it's now sha256sum as that's 
what they use now and the iso is fine, i have confirmed with kevin fenzi 
that the beta i686 xfce spin is actually bust and he's made another spin 
available for me to try, which i am away to do in about 20 mins, wish me 
luck :)

and thanks for the help offered, it's much appreciated :)

phil



From ml at kiewel-online.ch  Sun Apr  5 20:52:38 2009
From: ml at kiewel-online.ch (Uwe Kiewel)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 22:52:38 +0200
Subject: No sound with fc11b
In-Reply-To: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49D91A16.9090706@kiewel-online.ch>

Louis E Garcia II wrote:
> Just install f11 beta and have no sound at all. Worked with f10 fine.
> This is and intel core duo laptop. I have no idea were to begin

This is my intel core 2 duo notebook (Lenovo T61). Sound works fine out
of the box:

alberta:~ # lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation Mobile PM965/GM965/GL960 Memory
Controller Hub (rev 0c)
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile GM965/GL960
Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 0c)
00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation Mobile GM965/GL960
Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 0c)
00:19.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82566MM Gigabit Network
Connection (rev 03)
00:1a.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB UHCI
Controller #4 (rev 03)
00:1a.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB UHCI
Controller #5 (rev 03)
00:1a.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB2 EHCI
Controller #2 (rev 03)
00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) HD Audio
Controller (rev 03)
00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) PCI Express
Port 1 (rev 03)
00:1c.1 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) PCI Express
Port 2 (rev 03)
00:1c.2 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) PCI Express
Port 3 (rev 03)
00:1c.3 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) PCI Express
Port 4 (rev 03)
00:1c.4 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) PCI Express
Port 5 (rev 03)
00:1d.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB UHCI
Controller #1 (rev 03)
00:1d.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB UHCI
Controller #2 (rev 03)
00:1d.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB UHCI
Controller #3 (rev 03)
00:1d.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB2 EHCI
Controller #1 (rev 03)
00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 Mobile PCI Bridge (rev f3)
00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801HBM (ICH8M-E) LPC Interface
Controller (rev 03)
00:1f.2 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801HBM/HEM (ICH8M/ICH8M-E)
SATA IDE Controller (rev 03)
00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) SMBus Controller
(rev 03)
03:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation PRO/Wireless 4965 AG or
AGN [Kedron] Network Connection (rev 61)
15:00.0 CardBus bridge: Ricoh Co Ltd RL5c476 II (rev ba)
15:00.1 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Ricoh Co Ltd R5C832 IEEE 1394 Controller
(rev 04)
15:00.2 SD Host controller: Ricoh Co Ltd R5C822 SD/SDIO/MMC/MS/MSPro
Host Adapter (rev 21)
15:00.3 System peripheral: Ricoh Co Ltd R5C843 MMC Host Controller (rev ff)
15:00.4 System peripheral: Ricoh Co Ltd R5C592 Memory Stick Bus Host
Adapter (rev 11)
15:00.5 System peripheral: Ricoh Co Ltd xD-Picture Card Controller (rev 11)



Thanks,
	Uwe



From louisg00 at bellsouth.net  Sun Apr  5 21:34:24 2009
From: louisg00 at bellsouth.net (Louis E Garcia II)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:34:24 -0400
Subject: No sound with fc11b
In-Reply-To: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1238967264.16960.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-05 at 16:12 -0400, Louis E Garcia II wrote:
> Just install f11 beta and have no sound at all. Worked with f10 fine.
> This is and intel core duo laptop. I have no idea were to begin
> debugging. Any thoughts?
> 
> -Thanks

00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801G (ICH7 Family) High
Definition Audio Controller (rev 02)

I've updated today and still can't get sound. I've played with the new
palseaudio widet but sound was not muted. The mic seems to pickup sound
but no playback.




From dr.diesel at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 21:41:00 2009
From: dr.diesel at gmail.com (Dr. Diesel)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 17:41:00 -0400
Subject: No sound with fc11b
In-Reply-To: <1238967264.16960.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238967264.16960.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <2a28d2ab0904051441j35b99f57v316d53fb6b0441e8@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Louis E Garcia II <louisg00 at bellsouth.net>wrote:

> On Sun, 2009-04-05 at 16:12 -0400, Louis E Garcia II wrote:
> > Just install f11 beta and have no sound at all. Worked with f10 fine.
> > This is and intel core duo laptop. I have no idea were to begin
> > debugging. Any thoughts?
> >
> > -Thanks
>
> 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801G (ICH7 Family) High
> Definition Audio Controller (rev 02)
>
> I've updated today and still can't get sound. I've played with the new
> palseaudio widet but sound was not muted. The mic seems to pickup sound
> but no playback.
>

Way back in F7 or so I had to do the following to get my ICH7 sound to work:

Editing /etc/modprobe.conf

options snd-hda-intel index=0

to read:

options snd-hda-intel index=0 model=3stac

But that same Laptop on F10 today does not need that work-a-round, at least
for me.

Give it a shot but I'm betting it will not help.




-- 
projecthuh.com
All of my bits are free, are yours?  Fedoraproject.org
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From tcallawa at redhat.com  Sun Apr  5 22:43:38 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:43:38 -0400
Subject: Another Dwarf Error with rawhide
In-Reply-To: <49D8F3C4.3060903@redhat.com>
References: <49D6CBE6.7070300@redhat.com>
	<gr8acd$kgj$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49D7BA70.8080503@redhat.com>
	<49D86685.5010708@hhs.nl> <49D8B191.3080909@redhat.com>
	<49D8F3C4.3060903@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D9341A.3090809@redhat.com>

On 04/05/2009 02:09 PM, Hans de Goede wrote:

> I'm seeing the same issue, and I'm afraid I've not been able to find
> out why this is happening let alone fix it.

Good to know I'm not crazy. Hopefully Jakub will see this and have some
insight.

~spot



From vpivaini at cs.helsinki.fi  Sun Apr  5 22:46:47 2009
From: vpivaini at cs.helsinki.fi (Ville-Pekka Vainio)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 01:46:47 +0300
Subject: Heads up: new Voikko spell checking packages in Rawhide soon
Message-ID: <1238971607.7990.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>

This is especially important for people interested in Finnish language
support on Fedora 11. The Voikko project[1] released the first release
candidates of libvoikko 2.1 and openoffice.org-voikko 3.1. I wanted to
send a notice about them before building them for Rawhide.

- The soname of libvoikko is not bumped, no packages depending on it   
  should need to be rebuilt.

- Libvoikko is now looking for the dictionary files from 
  %{_libdir}/voikko/1/mor-standard by default, previously it was just 
  %{_libdir}/voikko.

- The malaga-suomi-voikko package with the dictionary files will thus
  need to be rebuilt and the new libvoikko package will require this   
  new Release of malaga-suomi-voikko.

- The new openoffice.org-voikko package will of course be built against 
  the new libvoikko package. 

What will Fedora users benefit from these changes:

 - The new libvoikko version has support for using different dictionary 
   variants, thus the new location for the default dictionary files. I 
   will only package the default variant for now, but users should be 
   able to install and use other variants from their home directories.

- The new openoffice.org-voikko version now has grammar checking for
  the Finnish language enabled by default, which is - to my knowledge - 
  something that has previously been offered only by proprietary 
  products on non-Linux platforms.

- The new openoffice.org-voikko version also has support for switching 
  the dictionary variant from OpenOffice.org settings.

The new spec files and SRPMs are available at[2]. I know we're past Beta
already, but I'd still like to get these new packages into F11 so that
we wouldn't have to wait for another six months for the new features.
I've tested the new packages with OpenOffice.org, Firefox (with the
mozvoikko extension) and with evolution and gedit (with the Enchant
provider). So far I have not seen any regressions. In general there have
been very little problems with the Voikko packages during the time I've
had them in Fedora (since F-8).

If you have a good reason for these packages not to go to F11, please
yell loudly during the next couple of days.


[1] http://voikko.sourceforge.net/
[2] http://vpv.fedorapeople.org/voikko-f11/


-- 
Ville-Pekka Vainio



From tmz at pobox.com  Sun Apr  5 23:23:19 2009
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:23:19 -0400
Subject: rpms/python-mutagen/devel import.log, NONE, 1.1 .cvsignore, 1.9,
 1.10 python-mutagen.spec, 1.13, 1.14 sources, 1.9, 1.10
In-Reply-To: <20090405201628.426297011F@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090405201628.426297011F@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090405232319.GH17135@inocybe.teonanacatl.org>

Silas Sewell wrote:
>  %description
>  Mutagen is a Python module to handle audio metadata. It supports
> @@ -23,13 +24,11 @@
>
>  %prep
>  %setup -q -n mutagen-%{version}
> -sed -e 1d -e 2d -i mutagen/__init__.py
> +sed -e 1d -e 2d -i mutagen/__init__.py

It would be safer (though slightly uglier) to use:

sed -i '/^#! \/usr\/bin\/env python/,+1 d' mutagen/__init__.py

That way, if upstream removes or changes the shebang, you will notice
rather than silently dropping the first two lines of __init__.py.

>  %changelog
> -* Thu Feb 26 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.13-4
> -- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild
> -
> -* Sat Nov 29 2008 Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet+rpm at gmail.com> - 1.13-3
> -- Rebuild for Python 2.6
> +* Sun Mar 29 2009 Silas Sewell <silas at sewell ch> - 1.15-1
> +- Update to 1.15
>
>  * Mon Dec 31 2007 Micha?? Bentkowski <mr.ecik at gmail.com> - 1.13-2
>  - Add egg-info to package

Why remove these two changelog entries?

Thanks for updating, I had noticed that there was a newer release not
so long ago, but I hadn't mentioned this to the package maintainer. :)

-- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before.
    -- Mae West

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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Mon Apr  6 00:39:08 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 02:39:08 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238650802.4338.196.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1q45$ikd$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238694566.4338.214.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <grbivd$68e$1@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> This gets me:
> 
> Error while synchronizing: Can't load plugin implementation module
> from /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so:
> /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so: undefined symbol:
> _ZN4KCal13IncidenceBase6setUidERK7QString
> 
> I tried rebuilding it on my local system to make sure it wasn't just
> some kind of mismatch, but same error.

It turns out this was actually a hickup in kdepimlibs, the scriptlet to move
the libkcal.so devel symlink to the %{_libdir}/kde4/devel directory was
incorrect in our recent kdepimlibs builds. (This was not noticed with KDE
packages because they use CMake exported targets which exports the
versioned library, so they link the versioned library directly and never
use the symlink.)

This should be fixed in kdepimlibs-4.2.2-3.fc11 and
libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.22-5.fc11.

        Kevin Kofler



From david at gnsa.us  Mon Apr  6 02:37:17 2009
From: david at gnsa.us (David Nalley)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 22:37:17 -0400
Subject: How to best deal with bundled libraries
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0904051937q26b03649r70382619967598b5@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

A number of PHP web applications have the nasty habit of bundling
libraries with their packages.

Upstream's logic for doing so (that shared hosting might not have
access to all of the libraries in question and leave the user with no
way to install the libraries) at least seems plausible at first
glance.

However, the question I bring is how best to deal with these, at least
two options jump out at me:

1. Patch source to point to the library installed on the system rather
than the bundled
OR
2. symlink from the bundled location to the system library.

#1 strikes me as cleaner, but also more difficult to maintain.

#2 strikes me as dead easy, but also a bit more hackish.

I've talked to several people individually, and none knew of a
preference, hence I beg the wisdom of the list.



David Nalley
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From rc040203 at freenet.de  Mon Apr  6 03:53:25 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 05:53:25 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <20090405205123.0f0e405c@faldor.intranet>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<20090405193629.6b97b99c@faldor.intranet>	<49D8F86F.6050105@freenet.de>
	<20090405205123.0f0e405c@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <49D97CB5.7070209@freenet.de>

Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:29:03 +0200, Ralf wrote:
> 
>> Michael Schwendt wrote:
>>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:56:09 +0200, Ralf wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hans de Goede wrote:
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've just packaged this cool recently set free old style
>>>>> adventure game drascula, including music and subtitles
>>>>> in French, German, Spanish and Italian.
>>>> Well I am reading this in drascula-music's readme.txt:
>>>>
>>>>  > 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes
>>>>  > reselling the
>>>>  > game as an individual item.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like a "non-free" package to me.
>>>  2) You may charge a reasonable copying fee for this archive, and may
>>> distribute it in aggregate as part of a larger and possibly commercial software
>>> distribution (such as a Linux distribution or magazine coverdisk).
>> == you may distribute it as part of Fedora.
> 
> No, as part of "a larger and possibly commercial software distribution".

IMO, this "license" is self contradicting => Likely illegal and likely void.

>> The clause I cited, restricts commercial use of the SW itself. One of 
>> the basic freedoms of open source software.
> 
> It's content, not code.

Any content is also "source"-code at the same time.  It's a matter of 
use-case. It's essentially the same thing as fonts, images etc. In this 
case it's "audio artworks."

In this case, their license doen't allow reusing their sources outside 
of their framework => their "art work" is non-free,

=> package must not be in Fedora.



From herlo1 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 06:38:29 2009
From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 00:38:29 -0600
Subject: fedora-devel-list Digest, Vol 60, Issue 91
In-Reply-To: <20090217082312.A42BE61B171@hormel.redhat.com>
References: <20090217082312.A42BE61B171@hormel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <d9e12e8a0904052338r26611ebdi7cf461763a1e5b74@mail.gmail.com>

Jason,

OLPC's arrived this last Thursday.  Sorry I didn't get the information
to you sooner.  I'll be coming down to the Provo Linux User Group
meeting this Wednesday and thought it might be a good time to meet up.
 What time is good for you, let me know.

Cheers,

Clint

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:23 AM,  <fedora-devel-list-request at redhat.com> wrote:
> Send fedora-devel-list mailing list submissions to
> ? ? ? ?fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> ? ? ? ?https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> ? ? ? ?fedora-devel-list-request at redhat.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> ? ? ? ?fedora-devel-list-owner at redhat.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of fedora-devel-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> ? 1. Re: Planning the Fedora 11 Mass Rebuild (Dennis Gilmore)
> ? 2. Re: [RFC] disable OSS sound support (King InuYasha)
> ? 3. Re: [RFC] disable OSS sound support (Warren Togami)
> ? 4. Re: Creating fresh fedora discs outside of Fedora itself
> ? ? ?(John Reiser)
> ? 5. Re: Power Management (Adam Williamson)
> ? 6. Re: Power Management (Matthew Garrett)
> ? 7. Re: Power Management (brad longo)
> ? 8. Re: Power Management (brad longo)
> ? 9. Re: Power Management (Eric Sandeen)
> ?10. Re: Heads up: mdadm-3.0-0.devel2.1.fc11 added to f11
> ? ? ?(Doug Ledford)
> ?11. Re: [RFC] disable OSS sound support (Kevin Kofler)
> ?12. Re: Creating fresh fedora discs outside of Fedora itself
> ? ? ?(Kevin Kofler)
> ?13. Re: Heads up: unixODBC rebase and ABI bump (Kevin Kofler)
> ?14. Re: RFC: RPM build flags ?(Tom Lane)
> ?15. rawhide report: 20090217 changes (Rawhide Report)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 18:54:52 -0600
> From: Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us>
> Subject: Re: Planning the Fedora 11 Mass Rebuild
> To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <200902161855.00057.dennis at ausil.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15"
>
> On Monday 16 February 2009 02:58:20 pm Jesse Keating wrote:
>> On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 11:53 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> > So again, if you wish to play a part in this task, or otherwise have
>> > opinions on how it should be done, please reply here and/or show up at
>> > the releng meeting Monday in #fedora-meeting at 1800 UTC.
>>
>> A short recap of the meeting:
>>
>> The goal is to rebuild every single Fedora package, regardless of
>> content, before the Fedora 11 Feature Freeze (March 3rd). ?Specific
>> features driving this rebuild and the changes required for them:
>>
>>
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ArchitectureSupport
>> ? This requires a change in redhat-rpm-config for the i586 flags, as
>> well as a koji config change to build for i586 rather than i386 by
>> default. ?These two changes can happen at any time, and will likely
>> happen this week to shake out any bugs. ?Dennis Gilmore and Jon Masters
>> are responsible for getting these changes in place.
>
> This is done, ?koji is now building i586 rpms instead of i386 rpms. with the
> updated redhat-rpm-config those at home will get i586 rpms when doing rpmbuild
> on 32 bit intel arches by default.
>
> Dennis
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:07:26 -0600
> From: King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [RFC] disable OSS sound support
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> ? ? ? ?<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID:
> ? ? ? ?<8278b1b0902161707v55fcc96fo7cd21d477493c04e at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Quite a few of the older Loki games use OSS
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 6:50 PM, Jon Masters <jonathan at jonmasters.org>wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 09:49 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote:
>> > On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 10:16 -0500, Jon Masters wrote:
>> > > On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 10:22 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> > > > Warren Togami wrote:
>>
>> > > > The problem with that is that they will continue saying "PulseAudio
>> broke my
>> > > > apps". If we just remove OSS sound support entirely, they won't have
>> a
>> > > > reason to blame PulseAudio anymore.
>> > >
>> > > I love that logic. And by love, I mean I really don't. PulseAudio is
>> > > great, but there is a use case for OSS without PA in the loop still.
>> >
>> > Where is there still a need for it? Apps that are still using OSS had
>> > about 8 years to switch to ALSA, why do you think they'd be doing it
>> > now?
>>
>> I don't. That's the shocking thing about ABIs between kernel and
>> userspace - we kind of guarantee them not to break randomly. I've got
>> plenty of applications that don't use ALSA and never will (some of them
>> from great Linux companies long since no longer with us) and yet it
>> would be nice if we didn't just stop them from working on a whim. I'd
>> much prefer to replace OSS support with e.g. the CUSE solution in a
>> future Fedora instead.
>>
>> But like I said, I don't /really/ care that much. This is kind of a
>> "won't somebody please think of the children" response I suppose.
>>
>> > > ?And
>> > > I fail to see why breaking those apps is a win - if you're that
>> worried,
>> > > pop up a notification to alert the user that something else has grabbed
>> > > the audio device away.
>> >
>> > Which apps? And please don't tell me "internal apps that I've never seen
>> > actually running and that nobody told me about".
>>
>> Old Linux games, lots of commercial stuff.
>>
>> Jon.
>>
>>
>> --
>> fedora-devel-list mailing list
>> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:20:32 -0500
> From: Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com>
> Subject: Re: [RFC] disable OSS sound support
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> ? ? ? ?<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <499A10E0.6090609 at redhat.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> King InuYasha wrote:
>> Quite a few of the older Loki games use OSS
>
> Do any of those Loki games work on modern distros? ?It seems glibc
> changes made it impossible long ago.
>
> Warren
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:33:10 -0800
> From: John Reiser <jreiser at BitWagon.com>
> Subject: Re: Creating fresh fedora discs outside of Fedora itself
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> ? ? ? ?<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <499A13D6.30803 at BitWagon.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> The Fedora Unity re-spin of Fedora 10 is now avialble:
>
> http://fedoraunity.org/news-archives/fedora-unity-releases-fedora-10-re-spin
>
> --
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:41:19 -0800
> From: Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
> Subject: Re: Power Management
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> ? ? ? ?<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <1234834879.3709.38.camel at adam.local.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 19:02 -0500, brad longo wrote:
>> As I'm sure most of you know, leaving your laptop plugged in and
>> charging with a full battery charge is harmful for the battery.
>
> No, it isn't. Where did you get that idea?
>
> It's very harmful if you're using a charger which doesn't figure out
> when the battery's full and switch to trickle charge mode but just keeps
> dumping full charge power in - you'll kill the battery in short order
> and, if you're lucky, set stuff on fire too. However, I know of not a
> single laptop ever shipped with such a dumb charger. All laptops have
> smart chargers, which sense when the charge is complete. Leaving the
> laptop plugged in while fully charged is a perfectly normal use case
> that all manufacturers expect and design for.
> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
> http://www.happyassassin.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 02:32:39 +0000
> From: Matthew Garrett <mjg at redhat.com>
> Subject: Re: Power Management
> To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <20090217023239.GA17988 at srcf.ucam.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 07:02:52PM -0500, brad longo wrote:
>> As I'm sure most of you know, leaving your laptop plugged in and
>> charging with a full battery charge is harmful for the battery. ?I have
>> been trying to see if Fedora's power management tool has something built
>> in so that when the battery reaches full charge, it will then discharge
>> to lets say around 95% before beginning to charge again. ?Friends of
>> mine with the same laptop use such measures except they are running
>> windows. ?However, based on the fact I did not see any documentation
>> about this, and that my battery charge does not appear to fluctuate at
>> all once it becomes fully charged (according to the statistics), I'm
>> guessing no such thing exists in Fedora. ?Does anyone have any
>> information as to whether this safety feature exists in Fedora, or
>> whether some other measures exist instead? ?Basically I'm just wondering
>> if I need to periodically unplug my laptop to preserve the lifespan of
>> the battery, which would be annoying. ?Also if this is not a feature is
>> anyone working on developing something like this for Fedora?
>
> Charging of the battery is generally under firmware rather than software
> control. Laptops will typically stop charging at 100%, at which point
> the battery will slowly self-discharge. When the battery hits some
> threshold (typically somewhere between 95% and 97%) the firmware will
> start charging again.
>
> What you're talking about is presumably an interface to modify that
> threshold. This is device specific. The tp_smapi driver (which is not in
> the kernel for exceedingly dull reasons) allows this to be configured on
> Thinkpads. I don't believe that we know how to on any other systems.
>
> --
> Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:01:10 -0500
> From: brad longo <Bl0ngo067 at aim.com>
> Subject: Re: Power Management
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> ? ? ? ?<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <499A3686.50502 at aim.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Adam Williamson wrote:
>> On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 19:02 -0500, brad longo wrote:
>>
>>> As I'm sure most of you know, leaving your laptop plugged in and
>>> charging with a full battery charge is harmful for the battery.
>>>
>>
>> No, it isn't. Where did you get that idea?
>>
>> It's very harmful if you're using a charger which doesn't figure out
>> when the battery's full and switch to trickle charge mode but just keeps
>> dumping full charge power in - you'll kill the battery in short order
>> and, if you're lucky, set stuff on fire too. However, I know of not a
>> single laptop ever shipped with such a dumb charger. All laptops have
>> smart chargers, which sense when the charge is complete. Leaving the
>> laptop plugged in while fully charged is a perfectly normal use case
>> that all manufacturers expect and design for.
>>
> I'm not going to pretend to be a professional when it comes to
> batteries, but my battery was recalled about two years ago for setting
> stuff on fire. ?Now you know of one.
>
> --Brad
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:02:19 -0500
> From: brad longo <Bl0ngo067 at aim.com>
> Subject: Re: Power Management
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> ? ? ? ?<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <499A36CB.9070909 at aim.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Matthew Garrett wrote:
>> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 07:02:52PM -0500, brad longo wrote:
>>
>>> As I'm sure most of you know, leaving your laptop plugged in and
>>> charging with a full battery charge is harmful for the battery. ?I have
>>> been trying to see if Fedora's power management tool has something built
>>> in so that when the battery reaches full charge, it will then discharge
>>> to lets say around 95% before beginning to charge again. ?Friends of
>>> mine with the same laptop use such measures except they are running
>>> windows. ?However, based on the fact I did not see any documentation
>>> about this, and that my battery charge does not appear to fluctuate at
>>> all once it becomes fully charged (according to the statistics), I'm
>>> guessing no such thing exists in Fedora. ?Does anyone have any
>>> information as to whether this safety feature exists in Fedora, or
>>> whether some other measures exist instead? ?Basically I'm just wondering
>>> if I need to periodically unplug my laptop to preserve the lifespan of
>>> the battery, which would be annoying. ?Also if this is not a feature is
>>> anyone working on developing something like this for Fedora?
>>>
>>
>> Charging of the battery is generally under firmware rather than software
>> control. Laptops will typically stop charging at 100%, at which point
>> the battery will slowly self-discharge. When the battery hits some
>> threshold (typically somewhere between 95% and 97%) the firmware will
>> start charging again.
>>
>> What you're talking about is presumably an interface to modify that
>> threshold. This is device specific. The tp_smapi driver (which is not in
>> the kernel for exceedingly dull reasons) allows this to be configured on
>> Thinkpads. I don't believe that we know how to on any other systems.
>>
>>
> Thanks this is the information I was looking for.
>
> --Brad
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:19:04 -0600
> From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
> Subject: Re: Power Management
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> ? ? ? ?<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <499A3AB8.7040009 at redhat.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> brad longo wrote:
>> Adam Williamson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 19:02 -0500, brad longo wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I'm sure most of you know, leaving your laptop plugged in and
>>>> charging with a full battery charge is harmful for the battery.
>>>>
>>> No, it isn't. Where did you get that idea?
>>>
>>> It's very harmful if you're using a charger which doesn't figure out
>>> when the battery's full and switch to trickle charge mode but just keeps
>>> dumping full charge power in - you'll kill the battery in short order
>>> and, if you're lucky, set stuff on fire too. However, I know of not a
>>> single laptop ever shipped with such a dumb charger. All laptops have
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> smart chargers, which sense when the charge is complete. Leaving the
>>> laptop plugged in while fully charged is a perfectly normal use case
>>> that all manufacturers expect and design for.
>>>
>> I'm not going to pretend to be a professional when it comes to
>> batteries, but my battery was recalled about two years ago for setting
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?^^^^^^^
>> stuff on fire. ?Now you know of one.
>
> That was most likely a defective battery, not a dumb charger that kept
> the battery on full current after it was charged, I think.
>
> -Eric
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:53:44 -0500
> From: Doug Ledford <dledford at redhat.com>
> Subject: Re: Heads up: mdadm-3.0-0.devel2.1.fc11 added to f11
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> ? ? ? ?<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <1234846424.751.100.camel at firewall.xsintricity.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 11:39 +0100, Radek Vykydal wrote:
>>
>> Doug Ledford wrote:
>> > The upgrade from mdadm 2.6.7.1 to mdadm 3.0 is not an entirely automated
>> > process. ?The mdadm 3.0 package includes new naming rules on md devices
>> > (specifically, only md? and md_d? devices are allowed in /dev, all
>> > non-standard named md devices must be moved to /dev/md/). ?In addition,
>> > I used upstream's udev rules file. ?It has been revamped to support some
>> > of the new features of mdadm 3.0 and is different from our previous udev
>> > rules file.
>> >
>> The udev rules file for md devices is in udev package:
>>
>> [root at dhcp92 module]# diff /etc/udev/rules.d/64-md-raid.rules
>> /lib/udev/rules.d/64-md-raid.rules
>> 14c14,15
>> < ATTR{md/array_state}=="|clear|inactive", GOTO="md_end"
>> ---
>> ?> ATTR{md/array_state}=="clear|inactive", GOTO="md_end"
>> ?> ATTR{md/array_state}!="?*", GOTO="md_end"
>> 18c19
>> < ENV{DEVTYPE}=="disk", ENV{MD_NAME}=="?*",
>> SYMLINK+="disk/by-id/md-name-$env{MD_NAME}"
>> ---
>> ?> ENV{DEVTYPE}=="disk", ENV{MD_NAME}=="?*",
>> SYMLINK+="disk/by-id/md-name-$env{MD_NAME}",
>> OPTIONS+="string_escape=replace"
>> 21c22
>> < ENV{DEVTYPE}=="partition", ENV{MD_NAME}=="?*",
>> SYMLINK+="disk/by-id/md-name-$env{MD_NAME}-part%n"
>> ---
>> ?> ENV{DEVTYPE}=="partition", ENV{MD_NAME}=="?*",
>> SYMLINK+="disk/by-id/md-name-$env{MD_NAME}-part%n",
>> OPTIONS+="string_escape=replace"
>>
>> where it contains also recently added patch to handle remove event added
>> to md layer (the first hunk).
>> (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.hotplug.devel/13666)
>> Isn't udev package the right place for the rules file (and the
>> other two hunks change)?
>
> In the past, the udev maintainer has told me that the reason for
> creating the rules.d directory was specifically to get various packages
> to maintain their own rules as opposed to them all being in the udev
> package. ?From that standpoint, it belongs in mdadm.
>
>> I also noticed that 70-mdadm.rules for linux raid member devices
>> (automatic incremental assembly with mdadm) were removed from mdadm package.
>> Why?
>
> The original 70-mdadm.rules file was a home grown rules file with no
> relationship to upstream. ?Upstream now has a reasonable udev rules
> file. ?We are attempting to use it to remain closer to upstream. ?If it
> turns out that upstream's rules file doesn't do all we need, we can add
> it back in. ?But, as much as possible, I want to keep with upstream on
> this.
>
> --
> Doug Ledford <dledford at redhat.com>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ?GPG KeyID: CFBFF194
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ?http://people.redhat.com/dledford
>
> Infiniband specific RPMs available at
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ?http://people.redhat.com/dledford/Infiniband
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 07:03:54 +0100
> From: Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at>
> Subject: Re: [RFC] disable OSS sound support
> To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <gndk0a$p7f$1 at ger.gmane.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Jon Masters wrote:
>> some of them from great Linux companies long since no longer with us
>
> And that's exactly why proprietary software is bad. Once the company goes
> belly up, nobody can fix it anymore. (And yes, software which uses obsolete
> APIs is broken.)
>
> ? ? ? ?Kevin Kofler
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 07:06:58 +0100
> From: Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at>
> Subject: Re: Creating fresh fedora discs outside of Fedora itself
> To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <gndk62$p7f$2 at ger.gmane.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> John Reiser wrote:
>> The Fedora Unity re-spin of Fedora 10 is now avialble:
>>
>> http://fedoraunity.org/news-archives/fedora-unity-releases-fedora-10-re-spin
>
> ... with KDE 4.1.4 on it, so probably not worth bothering for KDE users. :-(
>
> ? ? ? ?Kevin Kofler
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 07:22:51 +0100
> From: Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at>
> Subject: Re: Heads up: unixODBC rebase and ABI bump
> To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <gndl3r$p7f$3 at ger.gmane.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Conrad Meyer wrote:
>> Next time can you sort by packager FAS username rather than packagename?
>
> I'm not sure that's an improvement, considering the FAS username is just the
> owner. For people like me who are mainly comaintainers, the packagename can
> be the better sortorder, especially for small lists like this. :-)
>
> ? ? ? ?Kevin Kofler
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 01:45:28 -0500
> From: Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com>
> Subject: Re: RFC: RPM build flags
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> ? ? ? ?<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <27464.1234853128 at sss.pgh.pa.us>
>
> Here's a not entirely tongue in cheek suggestion: the default build
> flags should include -fno-strict-aliasing.
>
> I have spent most of today slogging through the compiler warnings
> for a random sample of packages (well, maybe not totally random,
> they're the dependencies of unixODBC). ?What I saw convinced me
> of something I'd suspected for awhile: there is not any significant
> chunk of C code anywhere that isn't broken by strict-aliasing
> optimizations. ?If I were the maintainer of any of those packages
> I'd be setting -fno-strict-aliasing into CFLAGS. ?Take a look at
> your own packages and see if you don't see a few warnings about
> things possibly or definitely violating strict-aliasing rules ...
> and then remember that gcc is still not bright enough to warn
> you about all the places where it'll break your code.
>
> I'm sure the gcc boys will be screaming about this suggestion,
> but I think putting -fno-strict-aliasing into default CFLAGS
> might be the single easiest thing we could do to improve the
> reliability of F11.
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?regards, tom lane
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 08:22:52 +0000 (UTC)
> From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
> Subject: rawhide report: 20090217 changes
> To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com, fedora-test-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <20090217082253.12BC61F825D at releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
>
> Compose started at Tue Feb 17 06:01:02 UTC 2009
>
> New package cloog
> ? ? ? ?The Chunky Loop Generator
> New package eclipse-birt
> ? ? ? ?Eclipse-based reporting system
> New package eclipse-systemtapgui
> ? ? ? ?Eclipse plugins for SystemTap
> New package impressive
> ? ? ? ?The stylish way of giving presentations
> New package kde-plasma-translatoid
> ? ? ? ?Translator Using Google Translator
> New package kio_sysinfo
> ? ? ? ?KIO slave which shows basic system information
> New package netactview
> ? ? ? ?Graphical network connections viewer for Linux
> New package perl-NOCpulse-Utils
> ? ? ? ?NOCpulse utility packages
> New package perl-Test-Harness-Straps
> ? ? ? ?Detailed analysis of test results
> New package perl-Test-Kwalitee
> ? ? ? ?Test the Kwalitee of a distribution before you release it
> Updated Packages:
>
> Miro-2.0-2.fc11
> ---------------
> * Tue Feb 10 17:00:00 2009 Michel Salim <salimma at fedoraproject.org> - 2.0-1
> - Update to 2.0
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Michel Salim <salimma at fedoraproject.org> - 2.0-2
> - Use system libtorrent >= 0.13
> - Do not ship testdata
> - Switch default download directory to ~/Videos/Miro
>
>
> PyAmanith-0.3.35-6.fc11
> -----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 0.3.35-6
> - rebuild
>
>
> cherokee-0.98.1-1.fc11
> ----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Pavel Lisy <pavel.lisy at gmail.com> - 0.98.1-1
> - updated to 0.98.1
>
>
> colordiff-1.0.8a-2
> ------------------
> * Mon Jan 26 17:00:00 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 1.0.8a-1
> - 1.0.8a.
> - Patch Makefile for DESTDIR support.
> - Patch cdiff for lzma support, man page improvements.
>
> * Mon Jan 26 17:00:00 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 1.0.8a-2
> - Fix man page permissions.
>
>
> crda-1.0.1_2009.01.30-5.fc11
> ----------------------------
> * Tue Jan 20 17:00:00 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com> v0.9.5_2009_01_15-1
> - Initial build
>
> * Thu Jan 22 17:00:00 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com> v0.9.5_2009_01_15-2
> - Revamp based on package review comments
>
> * Tue Jan 27 17:00:00 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com> 1.0.1_2009_01_15-3
> - Update for CRDA verion 1.0.1
> - Account for lack of "v" in upstream release tarball naming
> - Add patch to let wireless-regdb install w/o being root
>
> * Tue Feb ?3 17:00:00 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com> 1.0.1_2009.01.30-4
> - Change version to reflect new wireless-regdb upstream release practices
> - Update wireless-regdb version to pick-up recent updates and fixes (#483816)
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com> 1.0.1_2009.01.30-5
> - Recognize regulatory.bin files signed with the upstream key (#484982)
>
>
> culmus-fonts-0.102-3.fc11
> -------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Rahul Bhalerao <rbhalera at redhat.com> - 0.102-3.fc11
> - Modified -compat.
>
>
> dclib-0.3.23-1.fc11
> -------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.3.23-1
> - Update to 0.3.23
> - Fixed license tag
>
>
> dev86-0.16.17-11.fc11
> ---------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> 0.16.17-11
> - remove ExcludeArch to allow to run dev86 on different arches
>
>
> devhelp-0.23-4.fc11
> -------------------
> * Fri Jan 23 17:00:00 2009 Matthias Clasen ?<mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.23-2
> - Cosmetic spec fixes
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 0.23-3
> - Fix displaying web pages, WebKit doesn't like local filenames as URIs
> - Add missing Gconf2-devel BR
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 0.23-4
> - Disable strict-aliasing checks due to what looks like GLib breakage.
>
>
> digikam-0.10.0-0.17.rc2.fc11
> ----------------------------
> * Sat Feb 14 17:00:00 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 0.10.0-0.17.rc2
> - digikam-0.10.0-rc2
>
>
> ecryptfs-utils-70-1.fc11
> ------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Michal Hlavinka <mhlavink at redhat.com> 70-1
> - updated to 70
> - fix: #479762 - ecryptfsecryptfs-setup-private broken
> - added umount option to clear per-user keyring
>
>
> elfutils-0.140-1.fc11
> ---------------------
> * Sun Feb 15 17:00:00 2009 Roland McGrath <roland at redhat.com> - 0.140-1
> - Update to 0.140
> ?- libelf: Fix regression in creation of section header. (#484946)
>
>
> emacs-22.3-5.fc11
> -----------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Daniel Novotny <dnovotny at redhat.com> 1:22.3-5
> - fix #474578 - /usr/bin/emacs link not updated on upgrade
> ?(added a script to scan the alternatives and update them)
>
>
> empathy-2.25.91-1.fc11
> ----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 2.25.91-1
> - Update to 2.25.91
>
>
> evolution-2.25.91-1.fc11
> ------------------------
> * Sat Feb 14 17:00:00 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.25.90-3.fc11
> - Make the help subpackage noarch
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 2.25.91-1.fc11
> - Update to 2.25.91
>
>
> evolution-data-server-2.25.91-1.fc11
> ------------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 2.25.91-1.fc11
> - Update to 2.25.91
>
>
> evolution-exchange-2.25.91-1.fc11
> ---------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 2.25.91-1.fc11
> - Update to 2.25.91
>
>
> file-5.00-2.fc11
> ----------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Daniel Novotny <dnovotny at redhat.com> 5.00-2
> - fix #485141 - ?rpm failed while checking a French Word file
>
>
> fontconfig-2.6.97-3.g945d6a4.fc11
> ---------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Richard Hughes <rhughes at redhat.com> - 2.6.97-3.g945d6a4
> - Correct the rpm provide name to be font(), not Font().
>
>
> fontpackages-1.19-2.fc11
> ------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Nicolas Mailhot <nim at fedoraproject dot org>
> - 1.19-2
> ??? workaround the fact koji is not ready yet
> - 1.19-1
> ??? Add a fontconfig dep to -devel so font autoprovides work (bz#485702)
> ??? Drop duplicated group declarations, rpm has been fixed (bz#470714)
> ??? Add partial templates for fonts subpackages of non-font source packages
> ??? Make them noarch (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NoarchSubpackages)
>
>
> gambas-1.0.19-8.fc11
> --------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1.0.19-8
> - rebuild
>
>
> gcc-4.4.0-0.19
> --------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 4.4.0-0.19
> - update from trunk
> ?- PRs c++/39070, fortran/36528, fortran/36703, fortran/38259,
> ? ? ? ?libstdc++/39168, target/37049, target/38056, target/39149,
> ? ? ? ?target/39162, target/39196
> ?- ix86 peephole fix (#485729, PR target/39152)
> ?- uglify function parameter names in gthr*.h (#485619)
>
>
> glib2-2.19.7-1.fc11
> -------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.19.7-1
> - Update to 2.19.7
>
>
> glusterfs-1.3.12-1.fc11
> -----------------------
> * Thu Jul 17 18:00:00 2008 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1.3.10-1
> - Update to 1.3.10.
> - Remove mount patch, it's been included upstream now.
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1.3.12-1
> - Update to 1.3.12.
> - Remove no longer needed ocreat patch.
>
>
> gnumeric-1.8.2-6.fc11
> ---------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Huzaifa Sidhpurwala <huzaifas at redhat.com> 1:1.8.2-6
> - Disable gdaif and gnome-db plugins
> - Resolves CVE-2009-5983
>
>
> gstreamer-java-1.0-2.fc11
> -------------------------
> * Thu Feb 12 17:00:00 2009 Levente Farkas <lfarkas at lfarkas.org> - 1.0-2
> - fix spec file to build on x86_64 too
>
>
> gstreamer-plugins-good-0.10.13.3-1.fc11
> ---------------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 0.10.13.3-1
> - Updat eto 0.10.13.3 pre-release
>
>
> gtkhtml3-3.25.91-1.fc11
> -----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 3.25.91-1.fc11
> - Update to 3.25.91
>
>
> gvfs-1.1.6-1.fc11
> -----------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tomas Bzatek <tbzatek at redhat.com> - 1.1.6-1
> - Update to 1.1.6
>
>
> gwibber-0.8-1.239bzr.fc11
> -------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com> 0.8-1.239bzr
> - Update from upstream revision 239:
> ?- Integration with GNOME keyring (add Requires: gnome-python2-gnomekeyring)
> ?- Support for notifications to detect service capabilities
>
>
> hunspell-en-0.20090216-1.fc11
> -----------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Caolan McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 0.20090208-1
> - latest version
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Caolan McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 0.20090216-1
> - fix upstreamed
>
>
> ibus-1.1.0.20090211-9.fc11
> --------------------------
> * Tue Feb 17 17:00:00 2009 Huang Peng <shawn.p.huang at gmail.com> - 1.1.0.20090211-8
> - Recreate the ibus-HEAD.patch from upstream git source tree.
> - Fix ibus-hangul segfault (#485438).
>
> * Tue Feb 17 17:00:00 2009 Huang Peng <shawn.p.huang at gmail.com> - 1.1.0.20090211-9
> - Add requires im-chooser >= 1.2.5.
>
>
> icecream-0.9.3-3.fc11
> ---------------------
> * Tue Sep ?2 18:00:00 2008 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.0-12.20080117svn
> - Include unowned icecc directories.
> - Add defattr in devel pkg.
>
> * Thu Nov 13 17:00:00 2008 Michal Schmidt <mschmidt at redhat.com> - 0.9.2-1
> - Update to upstream release 0.9.2.
> - The license is GPLv2+.
> - Add manpages from SUSE src package.
> - Add patch to run icecc --build-native as root.
>
> * Wed Jan 28 17:00:00 2009 Michal Schmidt <mschmidt at redhat.com> - 0.9.2-2
> - Fix the create-env script not to crash on relative paths in ld.so.conf.
> - No need to build the native environment as root anymore.
> - Disable the SELinux policy for now, it needs more work.
>
> * Sat Feb ?7 17:00:00 2009 Michal Schmidt <mschmidt at redhat.com> - 0.9.2-3
> - add an upstream patch to fix FTBFS with gcc 4.4
>
> * Sat Feb ?7 17:00:00 2009 Michal Schmidt <mschmidt at redhat.com> - 0.9.2-4
> - one more fix for gcc 4.4.
> - updated the scheduler renaming patch.
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Michal Schmidt <mschmidt at redhat.com> - 0.9.3-1
> - new upstream release
> - Dropped merged patches.
> - Added an upstream patch to fix compilation with gcc 4.4.
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Michal Schmidt <mschmidt at redhat.com> - 0.9.3-2
> - Updated and re-enabled the SELinux policy. The scheduler is now confined too.
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Michal Schmidt <mschmidt at redhat.com> - 0.9.3-3
> - Do not use --disable-rpath, icecream's configure script does not understand
> ?it and warns about it. We still remove rpath using the sed tricks.
> - One more SELinux policy tweak.
>
>
> jabberd-2.2.6-1.fc11
> --------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Adrian Reber <adrian at lisas.de> - 2.2.6-1
> - updated to 2.2.6
>
>
> jhead-2.86-1.fc11
> -----------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Adrian Reber <adrian at lisas.de> - 2.86-1
> - updated to 2.86
> - fixes "CVE-2008-4640 jhead: arbitrary file deletion" (#468056)
> - fixes "CVE-2008-4641 jhead: command exection caused by
> ?incorrect handling of the shell escapes" (#468057)
> - fixes "build ignores optflags" (#485697)
>
>
> kdelibs-4.2.0-11.fc11
> ---------------------
> * Thu Feb 12 17:00:00 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.0-11
> - make plasma working better with qt4.5
>
>
> kdepimlibs-4.2.0-3.fc11
> -----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.0-2
> - multilib conflicts (#485659)
> - kde4/devel symlinks: blacklist only known conflicts
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.0-3
> - include toggle for -akonadi subpkg (not enabled)
> - Provides: -akonadi
>
>
> keepassx-0.3.4-1.fc11
> ---------------------
> * Tue Nov 11 17:00:00 2008 Aurelien Bompard <abompard at fedoraproject.org> 0.3.4-1
> - version 0.3.4
>
>
> kernel-2.6.29-0.124.rc5.fc11
> ----------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Jeremy Katz <katzj at redhat.com>
> - Switch msr and cpuid to be built-in on x86 since there isn't anything to really autoload them (and if there
> ?was, they'd just end up always being loaded)
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Dave Jones <davej at redhat.com> 2.6.29-0.121.rc5
> - Disable CONFIG_SCSI_IPS on ppc/ppc64
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Kristian H??gsberg <krh at redhat.com>
> - Flip the switch on intel KMS.
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
> - Add ext4 debug patch for ENOSPC issue
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> 2.6.29-0.122.rc5
> - build kernel-headers on i586
>
>
> libarchive-2.6.1-1.fc11
> -----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tomas Bzatek <tbzatek at redhat.com> 2.6.1-1
> - Update to 2.6.1
>
>
> libftdi-0.15-3.fc11
> -------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Lucian Langa <cooly at gnome.eu.org> - 0.15-3
> - fix tag
>
>
> libical-0.43-2.fc11
> -------------------
> * Tue Feb 17 17:00:00 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> - 0.43-2
> - Added patch to fix CFLAGS in libical.pc. Closes Red Hat Bugzilla bug #484091.
>
>
> libpaper-1.1.23-4.fc11
> ----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1.1.23-4
> - run libtoolize to fix build with newer libtool
> - disable rpath
>
>
> librtas-1.3.3-3.fc11
> --------------------
>
> librx-1.5-11.fc11
> -----------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> 1.5-11
> - pass modes to libtool
>
>
> libsoup-2.25.91-1.fc11
> ----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 2.25.91-1
> - Update to 2.25.91
>
>
> libssh2-1.0-1.fc11
> ------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 1.0-1
> - update to 1.0
>
>
> linuxwacom-0.8.2.2-4.fc11
> -------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Matthew Garrett <mjg at redhat.com> 0.8.2.2-4
> - Update the fdi file to automatch tablet PCs with serial Wacoms
>
>
> logjam-4.5.3-26.fc11
> --------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 4.5.3-26
> - libtoolize to support newer libtool
> - intltoolize so we get translations
>
>
> mediatomb-0.11.0-6.fc11
> -----------------------
> * Sat Jan 24 17:00:00 2009 Marc Wiriadisastra <marc at mwiriadi.id.au> 0.11.0-5
> - Rebuild for mysql dependancy
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> 0.11.0-6
> - needs to point to xulrunner/js 1.9.1 now
> - include my_sys.h for my_init
> - fix some char* -> const char*
>
>
> nautilus-2.25.91-1.fc11
> -----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tomas Bzatek <tbzatek at redhat.com> - 2.25.91-1
> - Update to 2.25.91
>
>
> net-snmp-5.4.2.1-8.fc11
> -----------------------
> * Fri Jan 30 17:00:00 2009 Karsten Hopp <karsten at redhat.com> 5.4.2.1-7
> - fix build on s390x which has no libsensors
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Jan Safranek <jsafranek at redhat.com> 5.4.2.1-8
> - fix tcp_wrappers integration (CVE-2008-6123)
>
>
> netpbm-10.35.60-1.fc11
> ----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> 10.35.60-1
> - update to 10.35.60
> - update .security patch, minor cleanup
> - fixes xwdtopnm for at least some direct color 24/32 images
> - fixes memory leak and out of memory crash in libpammap
>
>
> ntfs-3g-2009.2.1-2.fc11
> -----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 2:2009.2.1-2
> - update fdi to fix nautilus mount bug
>
>
> nut-2.4.0-1.fc11
> ----------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Michal Hlavinka <mhlavink at redhat.com> 2.4.0-1
> - update to new stable branch 2.4
>
>
> perl-5.10.0-58.fc11
> -------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> - 4:5.10.0-57
> - build sparc64 without _smp_mflags
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 4:5.10.0-58
> - add /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl to otherlibs (bz 484053)
>
>
> perl-HTTP-Proxy-0.23-1.fc11
> ---------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 0.23-1
> - update to 0.23
>
>
> perl-IPC-Shareable-0.60-7.fc11
> ------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 0.60-7
> - fix missing BuildRequires: perl(ExtUtils::MakeMaker)
>
>
> perl-libwww-perl-5.825-1.fc11
> -----------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> 5.825-1
> - update to 5.825
>
>
> pmd-4.2.5-1.fc11
> ----------------
> * Wed Feb 11 17:00:00 2009 Jerry James <loganjerry at gmail.com> - 0:4.2.5-1
> - Upgrade to 4.2.5
>
>
> poker3d-1.1.36-14.fc11
> ----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Ralf Cors??pius <corsepiu at fedoraproject.org> - 1.1.36-14
> - Rework poker3d-1.1.36-gcc43.patch.
> - Rebuild against OSG-2.8.0 + poker-eval-135.0-3.
>
>
> policycoreutils-2.0.61-10.fc11
> ------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 2.0.61-10
> - Fix script created by polgengui to not refer to selinux-policy-devel
>
>
> procps-3.2.7-25.fc11
> --------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Daniel Novotny <dnovotny at redhat.com> 3.2.7-25
> - added cgroup support to ps (Ivana Varekova)
>
>
> pyparted-2.0.1-1.fc11
> ---------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 2.0.1-1
> - Upgrade to pyparted-2.0.1 (#485632)
>
>
> python-crypto-2.0.1-17
> ----------------------
>
> python-paramiko-1.7.4-4.fc11
> ----------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Jeffrey C. Ollie <jeff at ocjtech.us> - 1.7.4-4
> - Add demos as documentation. BZ#485742
>
>
> qt-4.5.0-0.3.rc1.fc11
> ---------------------
> * Sun Feb 15 17:00:00 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.5.0-0.2.rc1
> - qt-copy-patches-20090215
> - License: +LGPLv2
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> 4.5.0-0.3.rc1
> - fix callgrindChildExitCode is uninitialzed
>
>
> redhat-rpm-config-9.0.3-5.fc11
> ------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> - 9.0.3-4
> - limit _smp_flags to -j16
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> - 9.0.3-5
> - apply fedora 11 default buildflags
> - set 32 bit intel build arch to i586 on compatiable hardware
> - set 32 bit sparc build arch to sparcv9 on compatiable hardware
>
>
> rpm-4.6.0-4.fc11
> ----------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Panu Matilainen <pmatilai at redhat.com> - 4.6.0-3
> - updated fontconfig provide script - fc-query does all the hard work now
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> - 4.6.0-4
> - inherit group tag from the main package (#470714)
> - ignore BuildArch tags for anyarch actions (#442105)
> - don't check package BuildRequires when doing --rmsource (#452477)
> - don't fail because of missing sources when only spec removal
> ?is requested (#472427)
>
>
> rxtx-2.1-0.4.7r2.fc11
> ---------------------
> * Fri Feb 13 17:00:00 2009 Levente Farkas <lfarkas at lfarkas.org> - 2.1-0.3.7r2
> - fix new libtool compile bug
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Levente Farkas <lfarkas at lfarkas.org> - 2.1-0.4.7r2
> - bump release number
>
>
> selinux-policy-3.6.6-1.fc11
> ---------------------------
>
> snort-2.8.3.2-1.fc11
> --------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> - 2.8.3.2-1
> - update to 2.8.3.2
>
>
> srecord-1.46-2.fc11
> -------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1.46-2
> - fix gcc 4.4 compile issues (cstdio)
>
>
> sugar-0.83.7-1.fc11
> -------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.83.7-1
> - Resume Activity list is not updated directly #322
> - Fix network panel on XO (Sascha Silbe) #290
> - Only show cp power section on xo #320
> - Add logout option to the buddy menu (Sayamindu) #207
> - Launch activity also when clicking on the palette icon #335
> - Use the activity icon for the 'Start new' palette item #314
> - Close the object chooser when the activity is closed #329
> - Dates in journal are not translated #55
> - Don't mute when right-clicking the speaker icon #278
> - Correctly cache the connection to the OHM service #249
> - Show launcher screen immediately after the user clicks to start an activity #243
> - Use documend-send icon (Gary C Martin) #227
> - Try harder to get an icon for a clipping
> - Hide the journal activity in the home view #87
> - Correctly initialize the TrayIcon
> - Add 'View Details' option to object palette in journal
> - Translation updates
> - Hide OLPC-specific fields on non-xo machines #133
> - Add a 'Clear search' button to 'No matching entries' message #266
> - Correctly detect when a query in the journal is empty #255
> - Avoid launching two instances of the same activity instance #238
> - Add start-with option to objectpalette in the journal
> - Fix dnd of icons in the favorite view #213
> - Right click on AP should reveal palette not connect to AP #10
> - Display space used and left in the volume palette in the journal #33
> - Don't update the zoom level when a dialog window pops up
> - Fix filtering the objectchooser with data types #219
>
>
> sugar-artwork-0.83.4-1.fc11
> ---------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.83.4-1
> - Add documend-send icon (Gary C Martin) #227
> - Add application-x-generic as a copy of application-octet-stream #13
> - Add icons drive-harddisk and drive
>
>
> sugar-toolkit-0.83.6-1.fc11
> ---------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.83.6-1
> - Dates in journal are not translated #55
> - Keep error when displaying a file in Browse, Read, ImageViewer, etc #258
> - Palette positioning fixes #298
> - 'Resume' activity window when NamingAlert is displayed #293
> - Naming alert prevents activity close on keep error #224
>
>
> swig-1.3.38-2.fc11
> ------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Adam Tkac <atkac redhat com> 1.3.38-2
> - handle -co option gracefully (#485540)
>
>
> taglib-sharp-2.0.3.0-8.fc11
> ---------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 2.0.3.0-8
> - disable doc generation
>
>
> telepathy-glib-0.7.26-1.fc11
> ----------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 0.7.26-1
> - Update to 0.7.26.
>
>
> tetex-fonts-hebrew-0.1-10.fc11
> ------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> 0.1-10
> - fonts-hebrew -> culmus-fonts-compat
>
>
> tiresias-fonts-1.0-4.fc11
> -------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> 1.0-4
> - fix packaging
>
>
> udev-extras-20090125-0.2.20090129git.fc11
> -----------------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com> 20090125-0.2.20090129git
> - Match udev requirement to distro's shipped udev
>
>
> valknut-0.4.9-1.fc11
> --------------------
> * Wed Feb ?4 17:00:00 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.4.8-2
> - Added valknut-gcc44.patch to fix the build with gcc 4.4
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.4.9-1
> - Update to 0.4.9
> - Removed gcc4.4 patch (merged upstream)
> - Fixed typo in description
> - Fixed license tag
> - Added oxygen/gnome icons themes as sources
>
>
> xgridfit-1.17-2.a.fc11
> ----------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Nicolas Mailhot <nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net>
> - 1.17-2.a
>
>
> xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.10.0-3.fc11
> ------------------------------
> * Tue Feb 17 17:00:00 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.10.0-3
> - fix VT switch on non-kms on rawhide
>
>
> xorg-x11-drv-fpit-1.2.0-2.fc11
> ------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Matthew Garrett <mjg at redhat.com> 1.2.0-2
> - Add an fdi file for autoconfig
> - Fix build on newer XInput
>
>
> xorg-x11-drv-geode-2.11.1-1.fc11
> --------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Chris Ball <cjb at laptop.org> 2.11.1-1
> - update to 2.11.1
> - this build works on the OLPC XO with upstream/Rawhide kernels
>
>
> xorg-x11-drv-nouveau-0.0.12-1.20090216git7b25a30.fc11
> -----------------------------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 0.0.12-1.20090213git2573c06
> - latest snapshot
> - add patches to improve G80/G90 desktop performance
>
> * Tue Feb 17 17:00:00 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 0.0.12-1.20090216git7b25a30
> - fixes from upstream
> - append git version to tarball filename
>
>
> xorg-x11-drv-nv-2.1.12-8.fc11
> -----------------------------
> * Tue Feb 17 17:00:00 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 2.1.12-8
> - Add support for GeForce 7025/7050 (fdo #22371)
>
>
> xorg-x11-server-1.5.99.902-12.fc11
> ----------------------------------
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> 1.5.99.902-11
> - xserver-1.5.99.902-xkb-colors.patch: don't confuse src and dst when copying
> ?color labels (#469572)
>
> * Mon Feb 16 17:00:00 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 1.5.99.902-12
> - xserver-1.5.99.902-nouveau.patch: select nouveau as default driver
> ?for NVIDIA GPUs
>
>
> Summary:
> Added Packages: 10
> Removed Packages: 0
> Modified Packages: 90
> Broken deps for i386
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ? ? ? ?1:anjuta-2.25.901-2.fc11.i386 requires perl(GBF::Make)
> ? ? ? ?bigboard-0.6.4-5.fc11.i386 requires libempathy-gtk.so.17
> ? ? ? ?bigboard-0.6.4-5.fc11.i386 requires libempathy.so.19
> ? ? ? ?desktop-data-model-1.2.5-5.fc11.i386 requires libempathy.so.20
> ? ? ? ?elisa-0.5.26-1.fc11.noarch requires elisa-plugins-good >= 0:0.5.26
> ? ? ? ?elisa-0.5.26-1.fc11.noarch requires elisa-plugins-bad >= 0:0.5.26
> ? ? ? ?gedit-vala-0.3.2-3.fc11.i386 requires libgbf-widgets-1.so.2
> ? ? ? ?gedit-vala-0.3.2-3.fc11.i386 requires libgbf-1.so.2
> ? ? ? ?imsettings-xfce-0.105.1-2.fc10.i386 requires libxfce4mcs-client.so.3
> ? ? ? ?imsettings-xfce-0.105.1-2.fc10.i386 requires libxfce4mcs-manager.so.3
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.i386 requires libgdamm-3.0.so.10
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.i386 requires libgnomedb_graph-3.0.so.4
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.i386 requires libgnomedb-3.0.so.4
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.i386 requires libgnomedb_extra-3.0.so.4
> ? ? ? ?libopensync-plugin-syncml-0.35-4.fc10.i386 requires libsyncml.so.0
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.i386 requires libtorrent-rasterbar.so.0
> ? ? ? ?nautilus-sendto-1.1.1-2.fc11.i386 requires libempathy.so.20
> ? ? ? ?1:pan-0.133-1.fc10.i386 requires libgmime-2.0.so.2
> ? ? ? ?perl-Hash-Util-FieldHash-Compat-0.03-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Tie::RefHash::Weak)
> ? ? ? ?python-gammu-0.28-1.fc11.i386 requires libGammu.so.5
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.i386 requires librpmdb-4.4.so
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.i386 requires librpmio-4.4.so
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.i386 requires librpmbuild-4.4.so
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.i386 requires librpm-4.4.so
>
>
>
> Broken deps for x86_64
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ? ? ? ?1:anjuta-2.25.901-2.fc11.i386 requires perl(GBF::Make)
> ? ? ? ?1:anjuta-2.25.901-2.fc11.x86_64 requires perl(GBF::Make)
> ? ? ? ?bigboard-0.6.4-5.fc11.x86_64 requires libempathy-gtk.so.17()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?bigboard-0.6.4-5.fc11.x86_64 requires libempathy.so.19()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?desktop-data-model-1.2.5-5.fc11.i386 requires libempathy.so.20
> ? ? ? ?desktop-data-model-1.2.5-5.fc11.x86_64 requires libempathy.so.20()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?elisa-0.5.26-1.fc11.noarch requires elisa-plugins-good >= 0:0.5.26
> ? ? ? ?elisa-0.5.26-1.fc11.noarch requires elisa-plugins-bad >= 0:0.5.26
> ? ? ? ?gedit-vala-0.3.2-3.fc11.x86_64 requires libgbf-1.so.2()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?gedit-vala-0.3.2-3.fc11.x86_64 requires libgbf-widgets-1.so.2()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?imsettings-xfce-0.105.1-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libxfce4mcs-client.so.3()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?imsettings-xfce-0.105.1-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libxfce4mcs-manager.so.3()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.i386 requires libgdamm-3.0.so.10
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.i386 requires libgnomedb_graph-3.0.so.4
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.i386 requires libgnomedb-3.0.so.4
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.i386 requires libgnomedb_extra-3.0.so.4
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.x86_64 requires libgnomedb_graph-3.0.so.4()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.x86_64 requires libgnomedb-3.0.so.4()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.x86_64 requires libgdamm-3.0.so.10()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.x86_64 requires libgnomedb_extra-3.0.so.4()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libopensync-plugin-syncml-0.35-4.fc10.x86_64 requires libsyncml.so.0()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.i386 requires libtorrent-rasterbar.so.0
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.x86_64 requires libtorrent-rasterbar.so.0()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.x86_64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?nautilus-sendto-1.1.1-2.fc11.x86_64 requires libempathy.so.20()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?1:pan-0.133-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libgmime-2.0.so.2()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?perl-Hash-Util-FieldHash-Compat-0.03-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Tie::RefHash::Weak)
> ? ? ? ?python-gammu-0.28-1.fc11.x86_64 requires libGammu.so.5()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.x86_64 requires librpmdb-4.4.so()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.x86_64 requires librpmbuild-4.4.so()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.x86_64 requires librpmio-4.4.so()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.x86_64 requires librpm-4.4.so()(64bit)
>
>
>
> Broken deps for ppc
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ? ? ? ?1:anjuta-2.25.901-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(GBF::Make)
> ? ? ? ?1:anjuta-2.25.901-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(GBF::Make)
> ? ? ? ?bigboard-0.6.4-5.fc11.ppc requires libempathy-gtk.so.17
> ? ? ? ?bigboard-0.6.4-5.fc11.ppc requires libempathy.so.19
> ? ? ? ?desktop-data-model-1.2.5-5.fc11.ppc requires libempathy.so.20
> ? ? ? ?desktop-data-model-1.2.5-5.fc11.ppc64 requires libempathy.so.20()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?elisa-0.5.26-1.fc11.noarch requires elisa-plugins-good >= 0:0.5.26
> ? ? ? ?elisa-0.5.26-1.fc11.noarch requires elisa-plugins-bad >= 0:0.5.26
> ? ? ? ?gedit-vala-0.3.2-3.fc11.ppc requires libgbf-widgets-1.so.2
> ? ? ? ?gedit-vala-0.3.2-3.fc11.ppc requires libgbf-1.so.2
> ? ? ? ?imsettings-xfce-0.105.1-2.fc10.ppc requires libxfce4mcs-client.so.3
> ? ? ? ?imsettings-xfce-0.105.1-2.fc10.ppc requires libxfce4mcs-manager.so.3
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc requires libgdamm-3.0.so.10
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc requires libgnomedb_graph-3.0.so.4
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc requires libgnomedb-3.0.so.4
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc requires libgnomedb_extra-3.0.so.4
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc64 requires libgnomedb_graph-3.0.so.4()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc64 requires libgnomedb-3.0.so.4()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc64 requires libgdamm-3.0.so.10()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc64 requires libgnomedb_extra-3.0.so.4()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libopensync-plugin-syncml-0.35-4.fc10.ppc requires libsyncml.so.0
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.ppc requires libcrypto.so.7
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.ppc requires libtorrent-rasterbar.so.0
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.ppc64 requires libtorrent-rasterbar.so.0()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?nautilus-sendto-1.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires libempathy.so.20
> ? ? ? ?1:pan-0.133-1.fc10.ppc requires libgmime-2.0.so.2
> ? ? ? ?perl-Hash-Util-FieldHash-Compat-0.03-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Tie::RefHash::Weak)
> ? ? ? ?python-gammu-0.28-1.fc11.ppc requires libGammu.so.5
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.ppc requires librpmdb-4.4.so
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.ppc requires librpmio-4.4.so
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.ppc requires librpmbuild-4.4.so
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.ppc requires librpm-4.4.so
>
>
>
> Broken deps for ppc64
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ? ? ? ?1:anjuta-2.25.901-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(GBF::Make)
> ? ? ? ?bigboard-0.6.4-5.fc11.ppc64 requires libempathy-gtk.so.17()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?bigboard-0.6.4-5.fc11.ppc64 requires libempathy.so.19()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?desktop-data-model-1.2.5-5.fc11.ppc64 requires libempathy.so.20()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?elisa-0.5.26-1.fc11.noarch requires elisa-plugins-good >= 0:0.5.26
> ? ? ? ?elisa-0.5.26-1.fc11.noarch requires elisa-plugins-bad >= 0:0.5.26
> ? ? ? ?gedit-vala-0.3.2-3.fc11.ppc64 requires libgbf-1.so.2()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?gedit-vala-0.3.2-3.fc11.ppc64 requires libgbf-widgets-1.so.2()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?imsettings-xfce-0.105.1-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libxfce4mcs-client.so.3()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?imsettings-xfce-0.105.1-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libxfce4mcs-manager.so.3()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc64 requires libgnomedb_graph-3.0.so.4()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc64 requires libgnomedb-3.0.so.4()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc64 requires libgdamm-3.0.so.10()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libgnomedbmm-2.9.5-4.fc9.ppc64 requires libgnomedb_extra-3.0.so.4()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?libopensync-plugin-syncml-0.35-4.fc10.ppc64 requires libsyncml.so.0()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.ppc64 requires libtorrent-rasterbar.so.0()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?linkage-0.2.0-4.fc11.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?nautilus-sendto-1.1.1-2.fc11.ppc64 requires libempathy.so.20()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?1:pan-0.133-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libgmime-2.0.so.2()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?perl-Hash-Util-FieldHash-Compat-0.03-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Tie::RefHash::Weak)
> ? ? ? ?python-gammu-0.28-1.fc11.ppc64 requires libGammu.so.5()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.ppc64 requires librpmdb-4.4.so()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.ppc64 requires librpmbuild-4.4.so()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.ppc64 requires librpmio-4.4.so()(64bit)
> ? ? ? ?ruby-rpm-1.2.3-4.fc9.ppc64 requires librpm-4.4.so()(64bit)
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
> End of fedora-devel-list Digest, Vol 60, Issue 91
> *************************************************
>



From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Mon Apr  6 07:18:02 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:18:02 +0200
Subject: Another Dwarf Error with rawhide
In-Reply-To: <49D8B191.3080909@redhat.com>
References: <49D6CBE6.7070300@redhat.com>
	<gr8acd$kgj$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49D7BA70.8080503@redhat.com>
	<49D86685.5010708@hhs.nl> <49D8B191.3080909@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D9ACAA.8000006@hhs.nl>



On 04/05/2009 03:26 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> On 04/05/2009 04:06 AM, Hans de Goede wrote:
>> On 04/04/2009 09:52 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>> On 04/04/2009 02:54 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>>> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>>>> /usr/bin/ld: Dwarf Error: Offset (44013) greater than or equal to
>>>>> .debug_str size (35429).
>>>> Once again, I think the real errors are the undefined references.
>>> Except that the clucene library provides all those things.
>>>
>> I've hit those dwarf errors too, and in my experience they go
>> away when you solve the undefined references.
>>
>> In my case templates were causing issues, but that does not seem
>> to be the case here.
>>
>> Can you post a src.rpm or something like that, then I can try to
>> reproduce the error and see if I can fix the undefined references.
>
> http://www.auroralinux.org/people/spot/review/new/flock-2.0-1.fc11.src.rpm
>
> Thanks in advance,
>

I'm seeing the same issue, and I'm afraid I've not been able to find
out why this is happening let alone fix it.

Regards,

Hans



From mcepl at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 07:15:54 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:15:54 +0200
Subject: How to best deal with bundled libraries
References: <d6e6dfeb0904051937q26b03649r70382619967598b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aqmoa6-emr.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-06, 02:37 GMT, David Nalley wrote:
> 1. Patch source to point to the library installed on the system 
> rather
> than the bundled
> OR
> 2. symlink from the bundled location to the system library.

Ask Java folks ... some applications have even Sun JRE included 
in the release tarball (ehm, Openfire ;-)) but IIRC (and I am not 
a Java maintainer), the option no. 1 is The Right One.

Thinking about it, it looks to me like you are de facto replacing 
Requires interface between packages with symlink, which seems to 
me like a bad proposition.

Mat?j



From nman64 at n-man.com  Mon Apr  6 07:50:36 2009
From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 02:50:36 -0500
Subject: How to best deal with bundled libraries
In-Reply-To: <aqmoa6-emr.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <d6e6dfeb0904051937q26b03649r70382619967598b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<aqmoa6-emr.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <200904060250.41380.nman64@n-man.com>

On Monday 06 April 2009 02:15:54 Matej Cepl wrote:
> On 2009-04-06, 02:37 GMT, David Nalley wrote:
> > 1. Patch source to point to the library installed on the system
> > rather
> > than the bundled
> > OR
> > 2. symlink from the bundled location to the system library.
>
> Ask Java folks ... some applications have even Sun JRE included
> in the release tarball (ehm, Openfire ;-)) but IIRC (and I am not
> a Java maintainer), the option no. 1 is The Right One.
>
> Thinking about it, it looks to me like you are de facto replacing
> Requires interface between packages with symlink, which seems to
> me like a bad proposition.
>

I agree that option 1 seems like the best.  I would add that we should work 
with upstream to make sure that include paths are not hard-coded throughout 
the app and are instead managed in a central location (per-app) that can be 
easily changed by installers or packagers.  I have seen a number of PHP 
webapps that completely fail in this regard.  Another thing to watch out for 
is apps that modify the included libraries, sometimes without mentioning it in 
documentation.  PHP's low barrier to entry results in a lot of ugly things.

-- 
Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes
nman64 at n-man.com

http://n-man.com/

LinkedIn:
http://linkedin.com/in/nman64

Have I been helpful?  Rate my assistance!
http://rate.affero.net/nman64/

All messages cryptographically signed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP
-- 


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From jakub at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 08:10:12 2009
From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:10:12 +0200
Subject: Another Dwarf Error with rawhide
In-Reply-To: <49D8B191.3080909@redhat.com>
References: <49D6CBE6.7070300@redhat.com> <gr8acd$kgj$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49D7BA70.8080503@redhat.com> <49D86685.5010708@hhs.nl>
	<49D8B191.3080909@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090406081012.GG4537@tyan-ft48-01.lab.bos.redhat.com>

On Sun, Apr 05, 2009 at 09:26:41AM -0400, Tom spot Callaway wrote:
> > Can you post a src.rpm or something like that, then I can try to
> > reproduce the error and see if I can fix the undefined references.
> 
> http://www.auroralinux.org/people/spot/review/new/flock-2.0-1.fc11.src.rpm

>From a quick look, it is most probably flock's or clucene's fault.
If you look why it can't find the symbols in libclucene.so, you should find:

   177: 0000000000000000     0 NOTYPE  GLOBAL HIDDEN  UND _ZN6lucene5index11IndexReader5closeEv

in flockLuceneImpl.o (and similarly for other symbols it couldn't find).
Looking at the preprocessed source (flockLuceneImpl.ii), you can see that
config/gcc_hidden.h header very early on adds
#pragma GCC visibility push(hidden)
and then some of the system headers either temporarily
#pragma GCC visibility push(default)
...
#pragma GCC visibility pop
or add visibility attribute to some namespaces (like std::, __gnu_cxx::
etc.).  But this doesn't seem to be done for the clucene headers, so you
are telling gcc that all symbols declared in those headers bind locally to
the same shared library.  You need to either wrap those headers with
#pragma GCC visibility push(default)
...
#pragma GCC visibility pop,
or add visibility attribute to the clucene namespaces.

	Jakub



From twaugh at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 09:06:45 2009
From: twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 10:06:45 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090404 changes
In-Reply-To: <49D863C7.7070500@hhs.nl>
References: <20090404101413.F26221B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>	<gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<49D863C7.7070500@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <49D9C625.1030100@redhat.com>

On 04/04/2009 08:58 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Rawhide Report wrote:
>> tigervnc-0.0.90-0.3.1.20090403svn3751.fc11
>> ------------------------------------------
>> * Fri Apr 03 2009 Adam Tkac<atkac redhat com>  
>> 0.0.90-0.4.20090403svn3751
> [snip]
>> - use built-in libjpeg (SSE2/MMX accelerated encoding on x86 platform)
>
> Shouldn't this be added to the system libjpeg instead, so all programs
> benefit?

Not only that but security updates for JPEG implementation flaws will 
require vnc updates as well.

Tim.
*/

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From nils at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 10:12:13 2009
From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:12:13 +0200
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <385866f0904030236r378e8df6t9cd42e55f4d65a6e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49D37BBE.8020406@redhat.com>
	<81487f820904010856n1f044ff4vc55a49c542916649@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904011826.09796.jreznik@redhat.com>
	<385866f0904010931m7f1e8784s6c7e6a4d62ea0bc8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238743961.2025.3.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de>
	<385866f0904030236r378e8df6t9cd42e55f4d65a6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239012733.22865.8.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com>

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 12:36 +0300, Muayyad AlSadi wrote:
> > As there's a bugzilla ticket about it already
> NP.
> could you please give me the bug number, I want to cc myself

The RFE is this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=427413

Please add more details to this RFE though, like what options need to be
implemented for the feature, what they individually mean, how to test
the feature, etc. This is all stuff the original reporter should have
put into the ticket, but didn't. That the same person also showed lack
of basic politeness in other tickets didn't really motivate me to dig
further.

Mind that I'm not against having that feature in s-c-samba, but I'd like
to understand the implications of enabling this feature first, e.g. also
how it would affect "normal" use of the Samba server, are there any
security concerns if that feature is used and so forth.

Nils
-- 
Nils Philippsen      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase 
Red Hat               a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty
nils at redhat.com       nor Safety."  --  Benjamin Franklin, 1759
PGP fingerprint:      C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F  656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011



From nils at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 10:18:13 2009
From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:18:13 +0200
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <348116500.14311238763483644.JavaMail.root@zmail06.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <348116500.14311238763483644.JavaMail.root@zmail06.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239013093.22865.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com>

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 08:58 -0400, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> Yes, it's more feature request than cleanup request. If anyone has 
> something to improve this process, any kind of contribution is 
> really appreciated, from user, what you like, what you want,
> patches from developers, tests from qa guys etc. ;-)

Along that line: please report any RFEs via Bugzilla as well, they're
just "out of scope" for the cleanup project.

Nils
-- 
Nils Philippsen      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase 
Red Hat               a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty
nils at redhat.com       nor Safety."  --  Benjamin Franklin, 1759
PGP fingerprint:      C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F  656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr  6 10:59:10 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Mon,  6 Apr 2009 10:59:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090406 changes
Message-ID: <20090406105910.63F931F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Mon Apr  6 06:15:05 UTC 2009

New package raidutils
        Utilities to manage Adaptec I2O compliant RAID controllers
Updated Packages:

NetworkManager-0.7.0.100-1.fc11
-------------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com> - 1:0.7.0.100-1
- Update to 0.7.1-rc4
- nm: use PolicyKit for system connection secrets retrieval
- nm: correctly interpret errors returned from chmod(2) when saving keyfile system connections
- editor: use PolicyKit to get system connection secrets


SDL_mixer-1.2.8-12.fc11
-----------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> - 1.2.8-12
- Remove dependency on timidity++-patches


anki-0.9.9.7.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Christian Krause <chkr at fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.9.7.1-1
- Update to new upstream version 0.9.9.7.1
- Drop unihaninstall patch (applied upstream)
- Updated noupdate patch
- Use original upstream tgz since upstream doesn't ship the example files
anymore


beneath-a-steel-sky-0.0348-8.fc11
---------------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at hhs.nl> 0.0348-8
- Bump minimal scummvm version to 0.12.0, as the new upstream zip no
  longer includes sky.cpt, that is part of scummvm itself since 0.12.0

* Fri Apr 03 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at hhs.nl> 0.0348-7
- Switch to latest upstream zip, which has some typo's in the readme
  corrected


compiz-0.7.8-18.fc11
--------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Adel Gadllah <adel.gadllah at gmail.com> - 0.7.8-18
- Direct rendering does not mean that we have hw 3D


control-center-2.26.0-2.fc11
----------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Fix a minor ui issue in the preferred apps capplet (#490421)


eclipse-phpeclipse-1.2.1-4.fc11
-------------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Mat Booth <fedora at matbooth.co.uk> 1.2.1-4
- Drop GCJ AOT support.
- Add htmlparser dependency and drop htmlparser patch.
- Add patch to fix PartInitException and IllegalArgumentException in
  PHP Manual view.


evolution-rspam-0.0.8-3.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Lucian Langa <cooly at gnome.eu.org> - 0.0.8-3
- fix for bug #492319


freeciv-2.1.9-1.fc11
--------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 2.1.9-1
- Update to 2.1.9.


gdb-6.8.50.20090302-15.fc11
---------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Jan Kratochvil <jan.kratochvil at redhat.com> - 6.8.50.20090302-14
- Archer update to the snapshot: f6273d446ff87e50976600ba3f71b88d61043e20
- Archer backport: f6273d446ff87e50976600ba3f71b88d61043e20
  - Use pretty-printers to print base classes inside a derived class.

* Sun Apr 05 2009 Jan Kratochvil <jan.kratochvil at redhat.com> - 6.8.50.20090302-15
- Archer update to the snapshot: 7c7c77576669d17ad5072daa47ea3a4fd954483d
- Archer backport: 7c7c77576669d17ad5072daa47ea3a4fd954483d (Peter Bergner)
  - Disassemble Power7 instructions right in the default/only -Many GDB mode.

* Mon Mar 30 2009 Jan Kratochvil <jan.kratochvil at redhat.com> - 6.8.50.20090302-13
- Archer update to the snapshot: d144a3633454046aaeae3e2c369c271834431d36
- Archer backport: a2c49b7640ebe7ce1376902d48d5bbbee600996b
  - Fixup compilation older GCCs.
- Archer backport: fe48224ce1bd22f37a7fa6d111d54c1a340392bf
  - KFAIL 4 cases of: gdb.arch/powerpc-power7.exp
- Archer backport: d144a3633454046aaeae3e2c369c271834431d36
  - Fix C local extern variables (requires gcc-4.4.0-0.30).


gipfel-0.2.9-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Fabian Affolter <fabian at bernewireless.net> - 0.2.9-1
- Updated to new upstream version 0.2.9
- Added icon file


gnome-session-2.26.0-2.fc11
---------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Avoid some warnings (#493688)


gnome-user-share-2.26.0-2.fc11
------------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Fix a menu reference in the docs (#494253)


ht-2.0.16-1.fc11
----------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Dan Hor??k <dan[AT]danny.cz>
- 2.0.16-1
- version update
- added patch for building with gcc 4.4
- remove executable permissions on source files

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 2.0.15-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


icecream-0.9.3-6.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Michal Schmidt <mschmidt at redhat.com> - 0.9.3-6
- Fix wrong permissions on the cache dir preventing the jobs from being
  distributed.
- SELinux policy update based on review comments on refpolicy ML.


kdepimlibs-4.2.2-3.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.2.2-3
- fix libkcal devel symlink hack


kexec-tools-2.0.0-11.fc11
-------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 2.0.0-11
- Install the correct configuration for i586


libatasmart-0.6-1.fc11
----------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.6-1
- New upstream release


libdrm-2.4.5-4.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com<> 2.4.5-4
- libdrm-radeon: API busting to latest upstream
- bump kernel requires


libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.22-5.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> 1:0.22-5
- rebuild against fixed kdepimlibs (libkcal devel symlink)


linuxwacom-0.8.2.2-11.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> 0.8.2.2-11
- linuxwacom-0.8.2.2-serial-check.patch: revert serial channel checking, it
  breaks waltop tablets.


lure-1.1-3.fc11
---------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at hhs.nl> 1.1-3
- Drop lure.dat from the included files, as that is part of scummvm itself
  since 0.12.0


m17n-contrib-1.1.9-3.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Parag Nemade <pnemade at redhat.com> -1.1.9-3
- Fix broken deps for maithili subpackage.


mimedefang-2.67-1.fc11
----------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> 2.67-1
- Upgrade to 2.67


mksh-37b-1.fc11
---------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> 37b-1
- Upgrade to 37b


mr-0.39-1.fc11
--------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Fabian Affolter <fabian at bernewireless.net> - 0.39-1
- Updated to new upstream version 0.39


python-beaker-1.2.3-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Felix Schwarz <felix.schwarz at oss.schwarz.eu> - 1.2.3-1
- Update to 1.2.3


python-mutagen-1.15-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Sun Mar 29 2009 Silas Sewell <silas at sewell ch> - 1.15-1
- Update to 1.15


python-zope-interface-3.5.1-2.fc11
----------------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Felix Schwarz <felix.schwarz at oss.schwarz.eu> 3.5.1-1
- update to 3.5.1

* Sun Apr 05 2009 Felix Schwarz <felix.schwarz at oss.schwarz.eu> 3.5.1-2
- use correct source filename (upstream switched from zip to tar.gz)


qemu-0.10-6.fc11
----------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Glauber Costa <glommer at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-6
- Fixed qcow2 segfault creating disks over 2TB. #491943


revisor-2.1.4-1.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Jeroen van Meeuwen <kanarip a fedoraunity.org> 2.1.4-1
- Fix configuration file issues
- Better estimation for the size of a tree that is to become an iso
- Huge improvements to package ordering
- Exclude boot.iso from installation media iso files


setools-3.3.5-8.fc11
--------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Dan Hor??k <dan[at]danny.cz> - 3.3.5-7
- add support for s390x

* Sun Apr 05 2009 Dan Hor??k <dan[at]danny.cz> - 3.3.5-8
- don't expect that java-devel resolves as gcj


squashfs-tools-4.0-1
--------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Kyle McMartin <kyle at redhat.com> - 4.0-1
- Update to release 4.0


supybot-fedora-0.2.5.1-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Jon Stanley <jonstanley at gmail.com> - 0.2.5.1-1
- New upstream 0.2.5.1


tomboy-0.14.0-2.fc11
--------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.14.0-2
- Split off a silly one-file devel package (#476251)


whohas-0.23-1.fc11
------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Fabian Affolter <fabian at bernewireless.net> - 0.23-1
- Updated to new upstream version 0.23


wxdfast-0.6.0-6.fc11
--------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Adel Gadllah <adel.gadllah at gmail.com> 0.6.0-6
- Rebuild to fix broken symbols (RH #490470)


xorg-x11-apps-7.3-8.fc11
------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> 7.3-8
- xinput 1.4.1


xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.1-5.fc11
------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.1-5
- radeon-modeset.patch: break APIs;
- radeon: move to latest git fixups
- bump min kernel required


xorg-x11-drv-evdev-2.2.1-2.fc11
-------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> 2.2.1-2
- evdev-2.2.1-read-deadlock.patch: handle read errors on len <= 0 (#494245)


yaboot-1.3.14-12.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 tony at bakeyournoodle.com - 1.3.14-12
- Increase the TFTP load buffer from 20MiB to 25MiB. (#483051)


Summary:
Added Packages: 1
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 41
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	libdrm-2.4.5-4.fc11.i586 requires kernel >= 0:2.6.29.1-52.fc11
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.i586 requires libopensync.so.1
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)
	xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.1-5.fc11.i586 requires kernel >= 0:2.6.29.1-52.fc11



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	libdrm-2.4.5-4.fc11.i586 requires kernel >= 0:2.6.29.1-52.fc11
	libdrm-2.4.5-4.fc11.x86_64 requires kernel >= 0:2.6.29.1-52.fc11
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.x86_64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)
	xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.1-5.fc11.x86_64 requires kernel >= 0:2.6.29.1-52.fc11



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	asterisk-ldap-fds-1.6.1-0.23.rc1.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-1.1.3-1.fc11.noarch requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	ipa-server-1.2.1-4.fc11.ppc requires fedora-ds-base >= 0:1.1.3
	libdrm-2.4.5-4.fc11.ppc requires kernel >= 0:2.6.29.1-52.fc11
	libdrm-2.4.5-4.fc11.ppc64 requires kernel >= 0:2.6.29.1-52.fc11
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc requires libopensync.so.1
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)
	xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.1-5.fc11.ppc requires kernel >= 0:2.6.29.1-52.fc11



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	asterisk-ldap-fds-1.6.1-0.23.rc1.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ds-1.1.3-1.fc11.noarch requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DialogManager)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires /usr/bin/repl-monitor.pl
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(SetupLog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Dialog)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSCreate)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Migration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(DSMigration)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Resource)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Setup)
	fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Inf)
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	ipa-server-1.2.1-4.fc11.ppc64 requires fedora-ds-base >= 0:1.1.3
	libdrm-2.4.5-4.fc11.ppc64 requires kernel >= 0:2.6.29.1-52.fc11
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)
	xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.1-5.fc11.ppc64 requires kernel >= 0:2.6.29.1-52.fc11





From mschwendt at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 11:04:22 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:04:22 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49D97CB5.7070209@freenet.de>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
	<20090405193629.6b97b99c@faldor.intranet>
	<49D8F86F.6050105@freenet.de>
	<20090405205123.0f0e405c@faldor.intranet>
	<49D97CB5.7070209@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20090406130422.5c0d0c79@faldor.intranet>

On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 05:53:25 +0200, Ralf wrote:

> Michael Schwendt wrote:
> > On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:29:03 +0200, Ralf wrote:
> > 
> >> Michael Schwendt wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:56:09 +0200, Ralf wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hans de Goede wrote:
> >>>>> Hi All,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've just packaged this cool recently set free old style
> >>>>> adventure game drascula, including music and subtitles
> >>>>> in French, German, Spanish and Italian.
> >>>> Well I am reading this in drascula-music's readme.txt:
> >>>>
> >>>>  > 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes
> >>>>  > reselling the
> >>>>  > game as an individual item.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sounds like a "non-free" package to me.
> >>>  2) You may charge a reasonable copying fee for this archive, and may
> >>> distribute it in aggregate as part of a larger and possibly commercial software
> >>> distribution (such as a Linux distribution or magazine coverdisk).
> >> == you may distribute it as part of Fedora.
> > 
> > No, as part of "a larger and possibly commercial software distribution".
> 
> IMO, this "license" is self contradicting => Likely illegal and likely void.

Well, I could agree with that, also because it is much too vague, and
lawyers might laugh about the licence terms. The [albeit not legally
binding] preamble of the licence explains the intent. They want to
restrict commercial exploitation of the game data files by declaring some
forms of sale of the game as illegal. According to the preamble, selling a
commercial collection of games including this one would be illegal. One
could not put together such a collection based on ScummVM (as the game
data are useless without an engine like SCUMM). Nevertheless, it's lawyers
and the FSF (as consulted) to decide whether this thing is considered
"free enough", for Fedora or in general.

> >> The clause I cited, restricts commercial use of the SW itself. One of 
> >> the basic freedoms of open source software.
> > 
> > It's content, not code.
> 
> Any content is also "source"-code at the same time.  It's a matter of 
> use-case. It's essentially the same thing as fonts, images etc. In this 
> case it's "audio artworks."

Note that game data uses the same licence text.



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr  6 11:22:09 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:52:09 +0530
Subject: pdf2djvu
In-Reply-To: <78323d480904041614w2b5a15c6m169fc122a2435e2a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78323d480904041614w2b5a15c6m169fc122a2435e2a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D9E5E1.8050007@fedoraproject.org>

Mani A wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> What is the last stable configuration for compiling it?
> 
> Other distros have solved the lib related problem.

You need to be a lot more specific about what you are trying to do and
what lib issue you are referring to.

Rahul



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 12:23:20 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 08:23:20 -0400
Subject: Another Dwarf Error with rawhide
In-Reply-To: <20090406081012.GG4537@tyan-ft48-01.lab.bos.redhat.com>
References: <49D6CBE6.7070300@redhat.com>
	<gr8acd$kgj$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49D7BA70.8080503@redhat.com>
	<49D86685.5010708@hhs.nl>	<49D8B191.3080909@redhat.com>
	<20090406081012.GG4537@tyan-ft48-01.lab.bos.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D9F438.7030405@redhat.com>

On 04/06/2009 04:10 AM, Jakub Jelinek wrote:

> Looking at the preprocessed source (flockLuceneImpl.ii), you can see that
> config/gcc_hidden.h header very early on adds
> #pragma GCC visibility push(hidden)
> and then some of the system headers either temporarily
> #pragma GCC visibility push(default)
> ...
> #pragma GCC visibility pop
> or add visibility attribute to some namespaces (like std::, __gnu_cxx::
> etc.).  But this doesn't seem to be done for the clucene headers, so you
> are telling gcc that all symbols declared in those headers bind locally to
> the same shared library.  You need to either wrap those headers with
> #pragma GCC visibility push(default)
> ...
> #pragma GCC visibility pop,
> or add visibility attribute to the clucene namespaces.

Thanks Jakub, this was the problem. The symbols in the clucene lib
weren't hidden, but the visibility limits hardcoded into the flock code
were breaking the compile. When I wrapped the clucene header calls, it
built fine.

~spot



From casimiro.barreto at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 12:36:41 2009
From: casimiro.barreto at gmail.com (Casimiro de Almeida Barreto)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:36:41 -0300
Subject: Something weird when updating kernel
Message-ID: <49D9F759.7070406@gmail.com>

Last kernel update (kernel-2.6.27.21-170.2.56.fc10.i686) caused problems
to grub in one of my computers.

Box in question have 2 IDE and 2 SATA HDs. Grub installed in /dev/sda, /
in /dev/sdc3, /boot in /dev/sdc1
To fix trouble I had to bood with CD, chroot to /mnt/sysimage and
grub-install /dev/sda

Mind if it happened to someone else.


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From atkac at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 12:43:41 2009
From: atkac at redhat.com (Adam Tkac)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:43:41 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090404 changes
In-Reply-To: <49D9C625.1030100@redhat.com>
References: <20090404101413.F26221B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org> <49D863C7.7070500@hhs.nl>
	<49D9C625.1030100@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090406124341.GA1127@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>

On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 10:06:45AM +0100, Tim Waugh wrote:
> On 04/04/2009 08:58 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Rawhide Report wrote:
>>> tigervnc-0.0.90-0.3.1.20090403svn3751.fc11
>>> ------------------------------------------
>>> * Fri Apr 03 2009 Adam Tkac<atkac redhat com>   
>>> 0.0.90-0.4.20090403svn3751
>> [snip]
>>> - use built-in libjpeg (SSE2/MMX accelerated encoding on x86 platform)
>>
>> Shouldn't this be added to the system libjpeg instead, so all programs
>> benefit?
>
> Not only that but security updates for JPEG implementation flaws will  
> require vnc updates as well.

Right you are, get that improvements to upstream will be the best
solution. Unfortunately no upstream for libjpeg is active so we can't
share TigerVNC code easily.

There were no security issue in libjpeg for ten years (please fix me
if I'm incorrect) so I don't think that vnc will suffer due builtin
jpeg. As written on
http://www.mail-archive.com/tigervnc-devel at lists.sourceforge.net/msg00225.html
TigerVNC consumes approximately 40% less CPU when it uses builtin jpeg
so it is a valid reason, I think.

Adam

-- 
Adam Tkac, Red Hat, Inc.



From mitr at volny.cz  Mon Apr  6 12:48:38 2009
From: mitr at volny.cz (Miloslav =?UTF-8?Q?Trma=C4=8D?=)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:48:38 +0000
Subject: rawhide report: 20090404 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090406124341.GA1127@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>
References: <20090404101413.F26221B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org> <49D863C7.7070500@hhs.nl>
	<49D9C625.1030100@redhat.com>
	<20090406124341.GA1127@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239022118.3301.46.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Adam Tkac p??e v Po 06. 04. 2009 v 14:43 +0200:
> As written on
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tigervnc-devel at lists.sourceforge.net/msg00225.html
> TigerVNC consumes approximately 40% less CPU when it uses builtin jpeg
> so it is a valid reason, I think.
That looks like a good reason to extract the changes and apply them to
the system jpeg library so that other applications can benefit as well.
	Mirek



From limb at jcomserv.net  Mon Apr  6 12:50:31 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:50:31 -0500
Subject: rawhide report: 20090404 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090406124341.GA1127@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>
References: <20090404101413.F26221B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>	<gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<49D863C7.7070500@hhs.nl>	<49D9C625.1030100@redhat.com>
	<20090406124341.GA1127@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D9FA97.10607@jcomserv.net>

Adam Tkac wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 10:06:45AM +0100, Tim Waugh wrote:
>   
>> On 04/04/2009 08:58 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>     
>>> Rawhide Report wrote:
>>>       
>>>> tigervnc-0.0.90-0.3.1.20090403svn3751.fc11
>>>> ------------------------------------------
>>>> * Fri Apr 03 2009 Adam Tkac<atkac redhat com>   
>>>> 0.0.90-0.4.20090403svn3751
>>>>         
>>> [snip]
>>>       
>>>> - use built-in libjpeg (SSE2/MMX accelerated encoding on x86 platform)
>>>>         
>>> Shouldn't this be added to the system libjpeg instead, so all programs
>>> benefit?
>>>       
>> Not only that but security updates for JPEG implementation flaws will  
>> require vnc updates as well.
>>     
>
> Right you are, get that improvements to upstream will be the best
> solution. Unfortunately no upstream for libjpeg is active so we can't
> share TigerVNC code easily.
>
> There were no security issue in libjpeg for ten years (please fix me
> if I'm incorrect) so I don't think that vnc will suffer due builtin
> jpeg. As written on
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tigervnc-devel at lists.sourceforge.net/msg00225.html
> TigerVNC consumes approximately 40% less CPU when it uses builtin jpeg
> so it is a valid reason, I think.
>
> Adam
>
>   
Actually, upstream of libjpeg *is* active, he's just not communicating 
that fact.  I made an attempt to re-ignite activity there and get 
several common patches applied, and had buy-in from Tom Lane, the RH 
libjpeg maintainer, and the majority of the SF.net libjpeg project 
team.  Guido Vollbeding is apparently working on a new release, but 
isn't being particularly communicative or transparent about it.  If you 
want to review or join the discussion, see the SF.net libjpeg list.

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From berrange at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 12:52:30 2009
From: berrange at redhat.com (Daniel P. Berrange)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:52:30 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090404 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090406124341.GA1127@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>
References: <20090404101413.F26221B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org> <49D863C7.7070500@hhs.nl>
	<49D9C625.1030100@redhat.com>
	<20090406124341.GA1127@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090406125230.GD24925@redhat.com>

On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 02:43:41PM +0200, Adam Tkac wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 10:06:45AM +0100, Tim Waugh wrote:
> > On 04/04/2009 08:58 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >> Rawhide Report wrote:
> >>> tigervnc-0.0.90-0.3.1.20090403svn3751.fc11
> >>> ------------------------------------------
> >>> * Fri Apr 03 2009 Adam Tkac<atkac redhat com>   
> >>> 0.0.90-0.4.20090403svn3751
> >> [snip]
> >>> - use built-in libjpeg (SSE2/MMX accelerated encoding on x86 platform)
> >>
> >> Shouldn't this be added to the system libjpeg instead, so all programs
> >> benefit?
> >
> > Not only that but security updates for JPEG implementation flaws will  
> > require vnc updates as well.
> 
> Right you are, get that improvements to upstream will be the best
> solution. Unfortunately no upstream for libjpeg is active so we can't
> share TigerVNC code easily.

That is still not a reason to put these changes in the VNC codebase. If
we're going to carry custom patches anyway, we should put them in the
main libjpeg Fedora RPM.

> There were no security issue in libjpeg for ten years (please fix me
> if I'm incorrect) so I don't think that vnc will suffer due builtin
> jpeg. As written on
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tigervnc-devel at lists.sourceforge.net/msg00225.html
> TigerVNC consumes approximately 40% less CPU when it uses builtin jpeg
> so it is a valid reason, I think.

If they were in the main libjpeg, then every application using libjpeg
in Fedora could benefit from this improvement. 40% speed up is very
appealing for people working with large photos in jpeg format.

Daniel
-- 
|: Red Hat, Engineering, London   -o-   http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :|
|: http://libvirt.org  -o-  http://virt-manager.org  -o-  http://ovirt.org :|
|: http://autobuild.org       -o-         http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
|: GnuPG: 7D3B9505  -o-  F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505 :|



From atkac at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 13:27:47 2009
From: atkac at redhat.com (Adam Tkac)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:27:47 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090404 changes
In-Reply-To: <49D9FA97.10607@jcomserv.net>
References: <20090404101413.F26221B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org> <49D863C7.7070500@hhs.nl>
	<49D9C625.1030100@redhat.com>
	<20090406124341.GA1127@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>
	<49D9FA97.10607@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <20090406132747.GA2670@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>

On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 07:50:31AM -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
> Adam Tkac wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 10:06:45AM +0100, Tim Waugh wrote:
>>   
>>> On 04/04/2009 08:58 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>>     
>>>> Rawhide Report wrote:
>>>>       
>>>>> tigervnc-0.0.90-0.3.1.20090403svn3751.fc11
>>>>> ------------------------------------------
>>>>> * Fri Apr 03 2009 Adam Tkac<atkac redhat com>    
>>>>> 0.0.90-0.4.20090403svn3751
>>>>>         
>>>> [snip]
>>>>       
>>>>> - use built-in libjpeg (SSE2/MMX accelerated encoding on x86 platform)
>>>>>         
>>>> Shouldn't this be added to the system libjpeg instead, so all programs
>>>> benefit?
>>>>       
>>> Not only that but security updates for JPEG implementation flaws will 
>>>  require vnc updates as well.
>>>     
>>
>> Right you are, get that improvements to upstream will be the best
>> solution. Unfortunately no upstream for libjpeg is active so we can't
>> share TigerVNC code easily.
>>
>> There were no security issue in libjpeg for ten years (please fix me
>> if I'm incorrect) so I don't think that vnc will suffer due builtin
>> jpeg. As written on
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/tigervnc-devel at lists.sourceforge.net/msg00225.html
>> TigerVNC consumes approximately 40% less CPU when it uses builtin jpeg
>> so it is a valid reason, I think.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>   
> Actually, upstream of libjpeg *is* active, he's just not communicating  
> that fact.  I made an attempt to re-ignite activity there and get  
> several common patches applied, and had buy-in from Tom Lane, the RH  
> libjpeg maintainer, and the majority of the SF.net libjpeg project team.  
> Guido Vollbeding is apparently working on a new release, but isn't being 
> particularly communicative or transparent about it.  If you want to 
> review or join the discussion, see the SF.net libjpeg list.

Thanks for info. I'm going to discuss future of TigerVNC enhancements
there.

Adam

-- 
Adam Tkac, Red Hat, Inc.



From ajax at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 14:14:56 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 10:14:56 -0400
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <1238866916.18687.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49CD379D.8040104@verizon.net> <1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>
	<gqr9qk$mk3$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<faa16b610903301337i7cd94e4dr61c995c084231a37@mail.gmail.com>
	<gqraro$rqj$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238508985.5005.1378.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1238866916.18687.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239027296.6768.174.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Sat, 2009-04-04 at 12:41 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:

> You are honestly expecting Aunt Tillie to log in to a console and grovel
> through log files?

No, Aunt Tillie is going to hit c-a-d or the power button like she does
in windows.  She doesn't know the difference between that and
c-a-backspace anyway, and the only visible difference for her is that
full reboot takes slightly longer.

> Here, how about a real life test case:
> 
> <snip>

Running this in rawhide doesn't do anything particularly special.  The
app crashes, certainly, but input continues to work afterward.  Haven't
tried with F10 yet, maybe it's worse there.

> Now how about Seg, the guy who debugs Little Billy's game. Take out the
> 'SDL_FULLSCREEN' flag from sdlcrash, recompile and run it under gdb.
> Wait for the crash... kablooey! I run in to this situation all the
> goddamn time trying to debug Second Life. It grabs the mouse when you
> click to move the camera, which is what you're doing most of the time.
> If it crashes then you're screwed.

I assume that you mean "gdb it from within X" here, in which case yes,
this is difficult.  Option one is to set a breakpoint on the signal
handler and do:

(gdb) commands 1
Type commands for when breakpoint 1 is hit, one per line.
End with a line saying just "end".
> call XUngrabPointer(SDL_Display, 0)
> call XUngrabKeyboard(SDL_Display, 0)
> end

Except of course that SDL_Display isn't really a variable, so, figure
that bit out.  Or just do it from the signal handler in SDL or the app
itself, except then you have to set the breakpoint after those calls
have run.  You're playing with fire a bit here since if you faulted in
the middle of an xlib call, the ungrab requests are probably going to be
sent as garbage.

Other option is to somehow get an XKillClient() to happen, which would
break the server's connection to the now-halted client, and thus reset
grab state.  Again, if you do this from within the crashing client you
run the risk of corrupting xlib's state, so it's only better than the
ungrab hack if you can get it to fire from some other client.

Third option from within the crashing app itself is
close(ConnectionNumber(dpy)), I suppose.  That'll trigger disconnect
handling in the server without generating more protocol.

> Is there some way to recover other than killing off the process, which
> screws any chance of debugging it because it's no longer running? Remote
> debugging isn't always particularly convenient.

Yep, life is hard.

You may be able to use the GL support in Xephyr instead?  That would
limit the scope of the grab to the nested Xephyr server.

- ajax
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From sokerlp at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 14:24:41 2009
From: sokerlp at gmail.com (Oscar<Soker>)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:24:41 -0500
Subject: Is this me or... it it doesn't work?
Message-ID: <8536ef10904060724m5b0b13b6iafcdc571f406be@mail.gmail.com>

In the past days I tried to install the beta release for fedora 11 using a
vm on VirtualBox, but unfortunately  I wasn't able to do that 'cause after
starting the copy from the live cd to the hard disk a bug message appear,
terminating the wizard, I updated yum, rpm,  anaconda and of course its
dependencies before start this process again, but once again  I got the same
error report, after many tries I got new error saying that something went
wrong with my file system,  :|, then I tried to install fc11b  in a
partition using ext3 and the wizard says it is not possible...wtf??  why do
I have that option but I cannot use it???

So, what am I doing wrong...

I hope this is just me doing something wrong

Thanks in advance


Atentamente Oscar:

Sent from Guadalajara, Jal, Mexico
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From fedora at matbooth.co.uk  Mon Apr  6 14:43:39 2009
From: fedora at matbooth.co.uk (Mat Booth)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:43:39 +0100
Subject: How to best deal with bundled libraries
In-Reply-To: <aqmoa6-emr.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <d6e6dfeb0904051937q26b03649r70382619967598b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<aqmoa6-emr.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <9497e9990904060743y71db4f56gee12b3129ae34f30@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 8:15 AM, Matej Cepl <mcepl at redhat.com> wrote:
> On 2009-04-06, 02:37 GMT, David Nalley wrote:
>> 1. Patch source to point to the library installed on the system
>> rather
>> than the bundled
>> OR
>> 2. symlink from the bundled location to the system library.
>
> Ask Java folks ... some applications have even Sun JRE included
> in the release tarball (ehm, Openfire ;-)) but IIRC (and I am not
> a Java maintainer), the option no. 1 is The Right One.
>
> Thinking about it, it looks to me like you are de facto replacing
> Requires interface between packages with symlink, which seems to
> me like a bad proposition.
>
> Mat?j
>

As a Java folk, yeah you tend to get all kinds of third-party jars
bundled with any given application. In Eclipse plugin land (where it
is common practice to bundle all required third-party libs as an
actual Eclipse plugin) we tend to go with option 2, symlink the system
lib into the Eclipse plugin. We have a special command to do it
"build-jar-repository" that lives in the jpackage-utils package. See
the eclipse-epic and eclipse-phpeclipse packages for examples.


-- 
Mat Booth
www.matbooth.co.uk



From mschmidt at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 14:46:45 2009
From: mschmidt at redhat.com (Michal Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:46:45 +0200
Subject: Is this me or... it it doesn't work?
In-Reply-To: <8536ef10904060724m5b0b13b6iafcdc571f406be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8536ef10904060724m5b0b13b6iafcdc571f406be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090406164645.3094ad28@brian.englab.brq.redhat.com>

On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:24:41 -0500
"Oscar<Soker>" <sokerlp at gmail.com> wrote:

> ...a bug message appear...
> ...new error saying that something went wrong...

Oscar,

Your report would be much more useful it you quoted error the messages
exactly.

Michal



From alsadi at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 15:06:12 2009
From: alsadi at gmail.com (Muayyad AlSadi)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:06:12 +0300
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <1239013093.22865.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com>
References: <348116500.14311238763483644.JavaMail.root@zmail06.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<1239013093.22865.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <385866f0904060806r3d82180ewba995dc5d99c2ffb@mail.gmail.com>

why dupplicating bugs

he said
> As there's a bugzilla ticket about it **already**,

I asked for the number



From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 15:18:36 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 08:18:36 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <grbivd$68e$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org> <1238650802.4338.196.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1q45$ikd$1@ger.gmane.org> <1238694566.4338.214.camel@adam.local.net>
	<grbivd$68e$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239031116.8700.62.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 02:39 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Adam Williamson wrote:
> > This gets me:
> > 
> > Error while synchronizing: Can't load plugin implementation module
> > from /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so:
> > /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so: undefined symbol:
> > _ZN4KCal13IncidenceBase6setUidERK7QString
> > 
> > I tried rebuilding it on my local system to make sure it wasn't just
> > some kind of mismatch, but same error.
> 
> It turns out this was actually a hickup in kdepimlibs, the scriptlet to move
> the libkcal.so devel symlink to the %{_libdir}/kde4/devel directory was
> incorrect in our recent kdepimlibs builds. (This was not noticed with KDE
> packages because they use CMake exported targets which exports the
> versioned library, so they link the versioned library directly and never
> use the symlink.)
> 
> This should be fixed in kdepimlibs-4.2.2-3.fc11 and
> libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.22-5.fc11.

Roger, will give it a shot. Sorry I didn't reply earlier - was out for
the weekend already.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From s-t-rhbugzilla at wwwdotorg.org  Mon Apr  6 15:42:40 2009
From: s-t-rhbugzilla at wwwdotorg.org (Stephen Warren)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:42:40 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: preupgrade complaining of dependency issues
Message-ID: <1239032560.15033.TMDA@tmda.severn.wwwdotorg.org>

I currently have Fedora 9 installed, and I'm trying to preupgrade to
Fedora 10 using preupgrade. However, preupgrade is complaining of a large
number of dependency issues (see complete log below).

The only 3rd-part yum source or RPMs I have come from adobe and skype. The
dependency messages don't reference any of these RPMs. I have just "yum
update"d, and still see the issue (I saw the same general problem both
before and after).

Questions:

1) If I go ahead and upgrade anyway, will my system be left in a
consistent (or even working) state?

2) If I upgrade using the CD/DVD instead, will I just hit the same issues?

3) ob-relevance-to--devel: I though there were automated regular scripts
running now to detect this kind of dependency issue? I guess I'm
mistaken...

There are unfinished transactions remaining. You might consider running
yum-complete-transaction first to finish them.
xulrunner-1.9.0.8-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libhunspell.so.1 is needed by package
xulrunner-1.9.0.8-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
1:cups-libs-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13(GNUTLS_1_3) is needed by package
1:cups-libs-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 (installed)
strigi-libs-0.6.4-3.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libexiv2.so.2 is needed by package
strigi-libs-0.6.4-3.fc9.i386 (installed)
wireshark-gnome-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13 is needed by package
wireshark-gnome-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
2:vim-enhanced-7.2.060-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgpm.so.1 is needed by package
2:vim-enhanced-7.2.060-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
compiz-kde-0.7.6-17.fc10.i386 from preupgrade has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libplasma.so.2 is needed by package
compiz-kde-0.7.6-17.fc10.i386 (preupgrade)
1:cups-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13(GNUTLS_1_3) is needed by package
1:cups-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 (installed)
libkexiv2-0.1.7-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libexiv2.so.2 is needed by package
libkexiv2-0.1.7-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
gtk-vnc-0.3.8-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13 is needed by package
gtk-vnc-0.3.8-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
gtk-vnc-0.3.8-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13(GNUTLS_1_3) is needed by package
gtk-vnc-0.3.8-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
kdebase3-3.5.10-7.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libraw1394.so.8 is needed by package
kdebase3-3.5.10-7.fc9.i386 (installed)
pidgin-2.5.5-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libedataserver-1.2.so.9 is needed by package
pidgin-2.5.5-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
wireshark-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13 is needed by package
wireshark-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
1:cups-libs-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13 is needed by package
1:cups-libs-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 (installed)
2:vim-X11-7.2.060-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgpm.so.1 is needed by package
2:vim-X11-7.2.060-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
kipi-plugins-0.2.0-0.4.beta3.fc10.i386 from preupgrade has depsolving
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libkipi.so.5 is needed by package
kipi-plugins-0.2.0-0.4.beta3.fc10.i386 (preupgrade)
6:kdebase-4.2.1-2.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libraw1394.so.8 is needed by package
6:kdebase-4.2.1-2.fc9.i386 (installed)
digikam-libs-0.10.0-0.6.beta5.fc10.i386 from preupgrade has depsolving
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libkipi.so.5 is needed by package
digikam-libs-0.10.0-0.6.beta5.fc10.i386 (preupgrade)
wireshark-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13(GNUTLS_1_3) is needed by package
wireshark-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
digikam-0.10.0-0.6.beta5.fc10.i386 from preupgrade has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libkipi.so.5 is needed by package
digikam-0.10.0-0.6.beta5.fc10.i386 (preupgrade)
devhelp-0.21-3.fc10.i386 from preupgrade has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.4 is needed by package
devhelp-0.21-3.fc10.i386 (preupgrade)
7:kdegraphics-libs-4.2.1-3.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libexiv2.so.2 is needed by package
7:kdegraphics-libs-4.2.1-3.fc9.i386 (installed)
fuse-encfs-1.5-3.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: librlog.so.1 is needed by package
fuse-encfs-1.5-3.fc9.i386 (installed)
1:cups-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13 is needed by package
1:cups-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 (installed)
xulrunner-1.9.0.8-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libhunspell.so.1 is needed by package
xulrunner-1.9.0.8-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
1:cups-libs-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13(GNUTLS_1_3) is needed by package
1:cups-libs-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 (installed)
strigi-libs-0.6.4-3.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libexiv2.so.2 is needed by package
strigi-libs-0.6.4-3.fc9.i386 (installed)
wireshark-gnome-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13 is needed by package
wireshark-gnome-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
2:vim-enhanced-7.2.060-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgpm.so.1 is needed by package
2:vim-enhanced-7.2.060-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
compiz-kde-0.7.6-17.fc10.i386 from preupgrade has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libplasma.so.2 is needed by package
compiz-kde-0.7.6-17.fc10.i386 (preupgrade)
1:cups-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13(GNUTLS_1_3) is needed by package
1:cups-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 (installed)
libkexiv2-0.1.7-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libexiv2.so.2 is needed by package
libkexiv2-0.1.7-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
gtk-vnc-0.3.8-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13 is needed by package
gtk-vnc-0.3.8-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
gtk-vnc-0.3.8-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13(GNUTLS_1_3) is needed by package
gtk-vnc-0.3.8-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
kdebase3-3.5.10-7.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libraw1394.so.8 is needed by package
kdebase3-3.5.10-7.fc9.i386 (installed)
pidgin-2.5.5-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libedataserver-1.2.so.9 is needed by package
pidgin-2.5.5-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
wireshark-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13 is needed by package
wireshark-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
1:cups-libs-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13 is needed by package
1:cups-libs-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 (installed)
2:vim-X11-7.2.060-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgpm.so.1 is needed by package
2:vim-X11-7.2.060-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
kipi-plugins-0.2.0-0.4.beta3.fc10.i386 from preupgrade has depsolving
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libkipi.so.5 is needed by package
kipi-plugins-0.2.0-0.4.beta3.fc10.i386 (preupgrade)
6:kdebase-4.2.1-2.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libraw1394.so.8 is needed by package
6:kdebase-4.2.1-2.fc9.i386 (installed)
digikam-libs-0.10.0-0.6.beta5.fc10.i386 from preupgrade has depsolving
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libkipi.so.5 is needed by package
digikam-libs-0.10.0-0.6.beta5.fc10.i386 (preupgrade)
wireshark-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13(GNUTLS_1_3) is needed by package
wireshark-1.0.6-1.fc9.i386 (installed)
digikam-0.10.0-0.6.beta5.fc10.i386 from preupgrade has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libkipi.so.5 is needed by package
digikam-0.10.0-0.6.beta5.fc10.i386 (preupgrade)
devhelp-0.21-3.fc10.i386 from preupgrade has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.4 is needed by package
devhelp-0.21-3.fc10.i386 (preupgrade)
7:kdegraphics-libs-4.2.1-3.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libexiv2.so.2 is needed by package
7:kdegraphics-libs-4.2.1-3.fc9.i386 (installed)
fuse-encfs-1.5-3.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: librlog.so.1 is needed by package
fuse-encfs-1.5-3.fc9.i386 (installed)
1:cups-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libgnutls.so.13 is needed by package
1:cups-1.3.9-4.fc9.i386 (installed)



From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 16:06:58 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:06:58 -0700
Subject: an interface for filesystem preallocation that doesn't suck?
In-Reply-To: <20090405201729.GA17730@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>	<49D5356F.6030909@redhat.com>	<7D392716F0C46381C94DF6A2@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>	<49D53FB7.5020401@redhat.com>
	<20090405201729.GA17730@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <49DA28A2.9090509@redhat.com>

Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 05:44:07PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
>> James Ralston wrote:
>>
>>> I intend to start filing bugs against anything I can find that doesn't
>>> use fallocate(), yes.  But I needed a better implementation to suggest
>>> than posix_fallocate().
>> Cool.  Feel free to cc: me on them?
>>
>> FWIW transmission already can do it though it requires some
>> undocumented(?) configuration.
>>
>> It also gives you the choice of posix_fallocate(), or not.   It'd be
>> nice if you could say "fallocate if you've got it; but no
>> posix_fallocate, thanks"
> 
> I just wrote a new program that uses posix_fallocate to allocate large
> files (of zeroes).  Should I change it to use fallocate?  What's the
> recommended code snippet / autoconf configuration?

Good question, it'd be nice to have some canned recipe for this... but
TBH I'm no autoconf expert.

The downside of posix_fallocate is that it will fall back to explicit
zero-writing if the filesystem (or the kernel) doesn't support
sys_fallocate - and you won't know the difference, if you care ...

To call the syscall directly when glibc doesn't have fallocate(2) it's
something like:

error = syscall(SYS_fallocate, fd, falloc_mode, offset, length);

(modulo the vagaries of syscalls on some architectures) and for
fallocate(2) it's:

error = fallocate(fd, falloc_mode, offset, length);

but you probably meant a code snippet & autoconf magic for navigating
the possible calls available at any given time... :)

-Eric

> Rich.
> 



From philippe-f.carriere at wanadoo.fr  Mon Apr  6 17:06:17 2009
From: philippe-f.carriere at wanadoo.fr (Philippe Carriere)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:06:17 +0200
Subject: F11: alsa sequencer error
Message-ID: <1239037577.3765.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hi,

since the two or three last releases, I have the following errors:

    Qjackctl messages

        21:27:05.799 Patchbay deactivated.
        21:27:05.851 Statistics reset.
        21:27:05.853 Could not open ALSA sequencer as a client. ALSA
MIDI patchbay will be not available.
        ALSA lib seq_hw.c:457:(snd_seq_hw_open) open /dev/snd/seq
failed: Aucun fichier ou dossier de ce type

    Qsynth messages

        21:30:56.500 Qsynth1: Creating synthesizer engine...
        21:30:56.517 Qsynth1: Creating audio driver (jack)...
        21:30:56.638 Qsynth1: Creating MIDI router (alsa_seq)...
        21:30:56.638 Qsynth1: Creating MIDI driver (alsa_seq)...
        21:30:56.640 Qsynth1: Failed to create the MIDI driver
(alsa_seq). No MIDI input will be available.
        ALSA lib seq_hw.c:457:(snd_seq_hw_open) open /dev/snd/seq
failed: Aucun fichier ou dossier de ce type
        fluidsynth: error: Error opening ALSA sequencer

Finally, even simply using aplaymidi doesn't work:

        $ aplaymidi file.midi 
        ALSA lib seq_hw.c:457:(snd_seq_hw_open) open /dev/snd/seq
failed: No such file or directory
        Cannot open sequencer - No such file or directory

Present configuration is:
    $ uname -a
    Linux localhost.localdomain 2.6.29.1-37.rc1.fc11.x86_64 #1 SMP Wed
Apr 1 08:56:57 EDT 2009 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

Has something changed or is it a bug ?

Phil.





From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Mon Apr  6 19:07:19 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:07:19 +0200
Subject: F11: alsa sequencer error
References: <1239037577.3765.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <grdjt7$ov3$2@ger.gmane.org>

If your sound hardware does not support MIDI, you need to run a software
sequencer, e.g. timidity++.

For JACK output, use this:
timidity -iADq -Oj --sequencer-ports=1

This one will use PulseAudio (through libao) for output instead:
timidity -iADq -OO --sequencer-ports=1

        Kevin Kofler



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Mon Apr  6 13:40:50 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 15:40:50 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <20090406130422.5c0d0c79@faldor.intranet>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<20090405193629.6b97b99c@faldor.intranet>	<49D8F86F.6050105@freenet.de>	<20090405205123.0f0e405c@faldor.intranet>	<49D97CB5.7070209@freenet.de>
	<20090406130422.5c0d0c79@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <49DA0662.7030403@freenet.de>

Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 05:53:25 +0200, Ralf wrote:
> 
>> Michael Schwendt wrote:
>>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:29:03 +0200, Ralf wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michael Schwendt wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:56:09 +0200, Ralf wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hans de Goede wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've just packaged this cool recently set free old style
>>>>>>> adventure game drascula, including music and subtitles
>>>>>>> in French, German, Spanish and Italian.
>>>>>> Well I am reading this in drascula-music's readme.txt:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  > 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes
>>>>>>  > reselling the
>>>>>>  > game as an individual item.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like a "non-free" package to me.
>>>>>  2) You may charge a reasonable copying fee for this archive, and may
>>>>> distribute it in aggregate as part of a larger and possibly commercial software
>>>>> distribution (such as a Linux distribution or magazine coverdisk).
>>>> == you may distribute it as part of Fedora.
>>> No, as part of "a larger and possibly commercial software distribution".
>> IMO, this "license" is self contradicting => Likely illegal and likely void.
> 
> Well, I could agree with that, also because it is much too vague, and
> lawyers might laugh about the licence terms. The [albeit not legally
> binding] preamble of the licence explains the intent. They want to
> restrict commercial exploitation of the game data files by declaring some
> forms of sale of the game as illegal. According to the preamble, selling a
> commercial collection of games including this one would be illegal. One
> could not put together such a collection based on ScummVM (as the game
> data are useless without an engine like SCUMM). Nevertheless, it's lawyers
> and the FSF (as consulted) to decide whether this thing is considered
> "free enough", for Fedora or in general.

OK, provided what you say, I am sure Red Hat or you will pay the lawyers 
of those people who plan to
- take these *.oggs and release them through a music d/l site.
- take these *.oggs and re-mix them for use in other SW-applications.
- take these *.oggs and re-use them in completely different application 
domains.

>>>> The clause I cited, restricts commercial use of the SW itself. One of 
>>>> the basic freedoms of open source software.
>>> It's content, not code.
>> Any content is also "source"-code at the same time.  It's a matter of 
>> use-case. It's essentially the same thing as fonts, images etc. In this 
>> case it's "audio artworks."
> 
> Note that game data uses the same licence text.

Same problem: You may not re-use these sources as input for other 
games/game engines (unless the original SCUMM packages are also 
installed) => non-free.




From dcbw at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 20:09:23 2009
From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:09:23 -0400
Subject: NetworkManager - Can not store wireless pass phrase
In-Reply-To: <49D4C27B.20604@kiewel-online.ch>
References: <49D3BD2C.3090203@kiewel-online.ch>
	<1238679590.3475.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D4C27B.20604@kiewel-online.ch>
Message-ID: <1239048563.28824.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 15:49 +0200, Uwe Kiewel wrote:
> Julian Aloofi wrote:
> > In general it should save your password automatically (I assume you use
> > Fedora 10). 
> 
> Oh, my fault: It's Rawhide :-)
> 
> > Maybe you should delete your WLAN from the connection list,
> > connect, enter your password and just reboot and see whether it worked
> > automatically.
> 
> I have had also this idea, but it didn't help.

Did you ever deny nm-applet or nm-connection-editor access to the Gnome
Keyring?  Run 'gnome-keyring-manager' or 'seahorse' ('yum install
gnome-keyring-manager seahorse' if you don't have them installed) and
see if nm-applet and nm-connection-editor has access to the key in
question.

If all else fails, you can use the atom-bomb approach and 'rm -rf
~/.gnome2/keyrings' and then try to set the passphrase in
nm-connection-editor again.

Dan


> 
> Thnaks,
> 	Uwe
> 
> > 
> > Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2009, 21:14 +0200 schrieb Uwe Kiewel:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I cannot store the pass phrase for my wireless lan in NetworkManager.
> >>
> >> Procedure:
> >> - left click on NM icon
> >> - selecting my wireless lan
> >> - entering my pass phrase
> >> - connect successful
> >>
> >> Later:
> >> - right click on NM icon
> >> - edit connection -> wireless
> >> - selecting my connection -> Edit -> wireless security
> >> - box for pass phrase is empty
> >> - entering my pass phrase
> >> - clicking apply
> >> - closing window
> >>
> >> Repeating this procedure, the in wireless security, there is no pass 
> >> phase :-(
> >>
> >> Is this a bug or is there an error in my procedure?
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> 	Uwe
> >>
> 



From notting at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 20:27:23 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:27:23 -0400
Subject: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting Recap - 2009-04-06
Message-ID: <20090406202722.GA8760@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Fedora Release Engineering Meeting - 2009-04-06

== Rawhide status ==

- PPC is broken due to sqlite causing yum to crash
- x86 (32-bit) is broken due to weird rpm error when building images

These issues would threaten the availability of a snapshot for this week.

== Beta wrapup ==

Known issues:

- KDE x86_64 live was accidentally x86_32
-- new one being built, not uploaded yet
- Source ISOs were wrong on torrent
-- new scripts will double-check for this
- XFCE is broken, but not a process issue
- similarly, PPC

== Snapshots ==

Current plan is to just ship Live, Live-KDE, and Live-XFCE for snapshot
release; shipping everything is just too much data to push around. Proposal
will be taken to the spins sig.

== Signing ==

We are not using sigul yet. Volnteers to help with deployment of it
welcome. Repodata signing is messy.

For more information, please see:
	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2009-apr-06



From wwoods at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 20:31:40 2009
From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:31:40 -0400
Subject: preupgrade complaining of dependency issues
In-Reply-To: <1239032560.15033.TMDA@tmda.severn.wwwdotorg.org>
References: <1239032560.15033.TMDA@tmda.severn.wwwdotorg.org>
Message-ID: <1239049900.16561.15.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 09:42 -0600, Stephen Warren wrote:
> I currently have Fedora 9 installed, and I'm trying to preupgrade to
> Fedora 10 using preupgrade. However, preupgrade is complaining of a large
> number of dependency issues (see complete log below).
> 
> The only 3rd-part yum source or RPMs I have come from adobe and skype. The
> dependency messages don't reference any of these RPMs. I have just "yum
> update"d, and still see the issue (I saw the same general problem both
> before and after).
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1) If I go ahead and upgrade anyway, will my system be left in a
> consistent (or even working) state?

It should be fine. If preupgrade didn't pop up an error dialog about
these problems, then they're non-fatal, and can be ignored. 

anaconda deliberately ignores dependency problems of this type, so
preupgrade tries to do the same - which is why it ignored them instead
of stopping the upgrade process or displaying an error message.

> 2) If I upgrade using the CD/DVD instead, will I just hit the same issues?

These same dependency issues will still be there, but no, they shouldn't
prevent you from upgrading. They might not even be logged.

> 3) ob-relevance-to--devel: I though there were automated regular scripts
> running now to detect this kind of dependency issue? I guess I'm
> mistaken...

No, we check for some dependency problems with (e.g.) F10 updates and
F10 updates-testing, but we don't yet compare F9 and F10.

-w
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From tcallawa at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 20:30:09 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:30:09 -0400
Subject: Orphaned Packages need new homes
Message-ID: <49DA6651.50008@redhat.com>

Don't worry, these aren't my packages, they used to belong to Marco
Pesenti Gritti, aka "mpg". Most of his packages have already found a new
home, but these need maintainers. If you're interested, go to the pkgdb
page and pick them up for F-10 and devel. All of these are OLPC related,
but not explicitly limited to OLPC.

matchbox-window-manager:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/matchbox-window-manager

pyxapian:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/pyxapian

libmatchbox:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/libmatchbox

xapian-core:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/xapian-core

xapian-bindings:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/xapian-bindings

Thanks,

~spot



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 20:35:58 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:35:58 +0100
Subject: Orphaned Packages need new homes
In-Reply-To: <49DA6651.50008@redhat.com>
References: <49DA6651.50008@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904061335va87a0e0v92b6d19af05ef737@mail.gmail.com>

I can pick them up as i've been doing quite a bit of package management on OLPC.

Peter

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> wrote:
> Don't worry, these aren't my packages, they used to belong to Marco
> Pesenti Gritti, aka "mpg". Most of his packages have already found a new
> home, but these need maintainers. If you're interested, go to the pkgdb
> page and pick them up for F-10 and devel. All of these are OLPC related,
> but not explicitly limited to OLPC.
>
> matchbox-window-manager:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/matchbox-window-manager
>
> pyxapian:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/pyxapian
>
> libmatchbox:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/libmatchbox
>
> xapian-core:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/xapian-core
>
> xapian-bindings:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/xapian-bindings
>
> Thanks,
>
> ~spot
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 20:38:10 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:38:10 +0100
Subject: Orphaned Packages need new homes
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904061335va87a0e0v92b6d19af05ef737@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49DA6651.50008@redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904061335va87a0e0v92b6d19af05ef737@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904061338j123c4cdatff76c2c818917311@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, and if anyone wants to co-maintain that would be great :-)

Peter

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:35 PM, Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> wrote:
> I can pick them up as i've been doing quite a bit of package management on OLPC.
>
> Peter
>
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> wrote:
>> Don't worry, these aren't my packages, they used to belong to Marco
>> Pesenti Gritti, aka "mpg". Most of his packages have already found a new
>> home, but these need maintainers. If you're interested, go to the pkgdb
>> page and pick them up for F-10 and devel. All of these are OLPC related,
>> but not explicitly limited to OLPC.
>>
>> matchbox-window-manager:
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/matchbox-window-manager
>>
>> pyxapian:
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/pyxapian
>>
>> libmatchbox:
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/libmatchbox
>>
>> xapian-core:
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/xapian-core
>>
>> xapian-bindings:
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/xapian-bindings
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> ~spot
>>
>> --
>> fedora-devel-list mailing list
>> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>>
>



From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com  Mon Apr  6 21:12:06 2009
From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:12:06 +0200
Subject: Orphaned Packages need new homes
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904061338j123c4cdatff76c2c818917311@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49DA6651.50008@redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904061335va87a0e0v92b6d19af05ef737@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904061338j123c4cdatff76c2c818917311@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239052326.3260.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Montag, den 06.04.2009, 21:38 +0100 schrieb Peter Robinson:
> Oh, and if anyone wants to co-maintain that would be great :-)

I can co-maintain matchbox, at least untill we switched to something
else on the XO (tweaking openbox for the XO atm)

Regards,
Christoph




From a.badger at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 21:09:40 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:09:40 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090404 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090406132747.GA2670@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>
References: <20090404101413.F26221B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>	<gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<49D863C7.7070500@hhs.nl>	<49D9C625.1030100@redhat.com>	<20090406124341.GA1127@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>	<49D9FA97.10607@jcomserv.net>
	<20090406132747.GA2670@evileye.atkac.englab.brq.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DA6F94.2080102@gmail.com>

Adam Tkac wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 07:50:31AM -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>> Actually, upstream of libjpeg *is* active, he's just not communicating  
>> that fact.  I made an attempt to re-ignite activity there and get  
>> several common patches applied, and had buy-in from Tom Lane, the RH  
>> libjpeg maintainer, and the majority of the SF.net libjpeg project team.  
>> Guido Vollbeding is apparently working on a new release, but isn't being 
>> particularly communicative or transparent about it.  If you want to 
>> review or join the discussion, see the SF.net libjpeg list.
> 
> Thanks for info. I'm going to discuss future of TigerVNC enhancements
> there.
> 
Would you like a bug report to track getting the changes out of tigervnc
and merged into libjpeg or are you planning to revert to system libjpeg
while waiting for the changes to be merged to libjpeg?

-Toshio

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From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 21:14:42 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:14:42 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <1239031116.8700.62.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org> <1238650802.4338.196.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1q45$ikd$1@ger.gmane.org> <1238694566.4338.214.camel@adam.local.net>
	<grbivd$68e$1@ger.gmane.org> <1239031116.8700.62.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1239052482.8700.82.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 08:18 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 02:39 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > Adam Williamson wrote:
> > > This gets me:
> > > 
> > > Error while synchronizing: Can't load plugin implementation module
> > > from /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so:
> > > /usr/lib64/opensync/plugins/kdepim_lib.so: undefined symbol:
> > > _ZN4KCal13IncidenceBase6setUidERK7QString
> > > 
> > > I tried rebuilding it on my local system to make sure it wasn't just
> > > some kind of mismatch, but same error.
> > 
> > It turns out this was actually a hickup in kdepimlibs, the scriptlet to move
> > the libkcal.so devel symlink to the %{_libdir}/kde4/devel directory was
> > incorrect in our recent kdepimlibs builds. (This was not noticed with KDE
> > packages because they use CMake exported targets which exports the
> > versioned library, so they link the versioned library directly and never
> > use the symlink.)
> > 
> > This should be fixed in kdepimlibs-4.2.2-3.fc11 and
> > libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.22-5.fc11.
> 
> Roger, will give it a shot. Sorry I didn't reply earlier - was out for
> the weekend already.

BTW, just a quick general note for anyone following along: it's probably
worth noting that you can test opensync, to some extent, without any
kind of hardware at all. It's a general purpose synchronization
framework. You can set up a sync group that just syncs, say, Evolution
with KDEPIM, and it should work.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 21:14:15 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:14:15 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49DA0662.7030403@freenet.de>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
	<20090405193629.6b97b99c@faldor.intranet>
	<49D8F86F.6050105@freenet.de>
	<20090405205123.0f0e405c@faldor.intranet>
	<49D97CB5.7070209@freenet.de>
	<20090406130422.5c0d0c79@faldor.intranet>
	<49DA0662.7030403@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20090406231415.356406aa@faldor.intranet>

On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 15:40:50 +0200, Ralf wrote:

> OK, provided what you say, I am sure Red Hat or you will pay the lawyers 
> of those people who plan to
> - take these *.oggs and release them through a music d/l site.
> - take these *.oggs and re-mix them for use in other SW-applications.
> - take these *.oggs and re-use them in completely different application 
> domains.

Consult "Fedora Legal" if you think these games packages ought to be
banned:  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal

I'm not in the position to decide whether something, which has been
considered free enough for Fedora, may lead someone external into ignoring
the licence terms which must be included within the packages and within
the original source archives. The same person might also fetch the
archives from the original publisher's site or SCUMM's site or a "magazine
coverdisk" and do something with it that would be considered a violation
of the licence terms (which do not even comment on the music files
specifically, but just "the game").

> >>>> The clause I cited, restricts commercial use of the SW itself. One of 
> >>>> the basic freedoms of open source software.
> >>> It's content, not code.
> >> Any content is also "source"-code at the same time.  It's a matter of 
> >> use-case. It's essentially the same thing as fonts, images etc. In this 
> >> case it's "audio artworks."
> > 
> > Note that game data uses the same licence text.
> 
> Same problem: You may not re-use these sources as input for other 
> games/game engines (unless the original SCUMM packages are also 
> installed) => non-free.

Which of the terms says this?



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 21:16:00 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 22:16:00 +0100
Subject: Orphaned Packages need new homes
In-Reply-To: <1239052326.3260.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49DA6651.50008@redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904061335va87a0e0v92b6d19af05ef737@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904061338j123c4cdatff76c2c818917311@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239052326.3260.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904061416n58dbc7e8naa09334d627645b4@mail.gmail.com>

Cool. Just do the request in pkgdb and I'll add you.

Peter

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Christoph Wickert
<christoph.wickert at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am Montag, den 06.04.2009, 21:38 +0100 schrieb Peter Robinson:
>> Oh, and if anyone wants to co-maintain that would be great :-)
>
> I can co-maintain matchbox, at least untill we switched to something
> else on the XO (tweaking openbox for the XO atm)
>
> Regards,
> Christoph
>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 21:18:02 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:18:02 -0700
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904031458m78e5377cr1a7bdefa5dce3006@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238795271.31472.175.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904031458m78e5377cr1a7bdefa5dce3006@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239052682.8700.86.camel@adam.local.net>

On Sat, 2009-04-04 at 03:28 +0530, Debayan Banerjee wrote:
> 2009/4/4 James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>:
> > On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 17:17 +0530, Debayan Banerjee wrote:
> >> Let ISVs, 3rd party developers package stuff and host their own
> >> repositories.
> >
> >  IMNSHO this isn't viable, which might be central to why you don't
> > understand what you want to do isn't such a good idea.
> >  I've tried to write up an overview of the problem, why it can't work,
> > and a possible solution for the 3rd parties:
> >
> > http://illiterat.livejournal.com/6716.html
> 
> Thank you very much for your effort. I learnt a lot.

FWIW I wrote something similar, but much more wordy and blathery, in the
context of Ubuntu's PPAs, back when I was at MDV:

-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 21:19:44 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:19:44 -0700
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <1239052682.8700.86.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238795271.31472.175.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904031458m78e5377cr1a7bdefa5dce3006@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239052682.8700.86.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1239052784.8700.88.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 14:18 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-04 at 03:28 +0530, Debayan Banerjee wrote:
> > 2009/4/4 James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>:
> > > On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 17:17 +0530, Debayan Banerjee wrote:
> > >> Let ISVs, 3rd party developers package stuff and host their own
> > >> repositories.
> > >
> > >  IMNSHO this isn't viable, which might be central to why you don't
> > > understand what you want to do isn't such a good idea.
> > >  I've tried to write up an overview of the problem, why it can't work,
> > > and a possible solution for the 3rd parties:
> > >
> > > http://illiterat.livejournal.com/6716.html
> > 
> > Thank you very much for your effort. I learnt a lot.
> 
> FWIW I wrote something similar, but much more wordy and blathery, in the
> context of Ubuntu's PPAs, back when I was at MDV:

The preceding mail nicely illustrates the dangers of the ctrl-enter
keybinding when trying to insert a couple of line feeds and immediately
afterwards paste the URL...

http://www.happyassassin.net/2007/10/24/mistakes/
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 21:23:57 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:23:57 -0700
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1238805746.23672.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238747739.3338.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238781080.8700.53.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238805746.23672.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239053037.8700.91.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 19:42 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:

> Though with enough money, you could automate those too, with the use of
> some cameras and video capture hardware, or for more $$$ high speed
> digital sampling hardware... Get a hardware hacker to instrument the
> laptop's backlight...
> 
> How much is stability worth to Red Hat Inc?

OK, reality check here: the Fedora QA department paid by Red Hat is a
small handful of folks with a smattering of machines - we've got quite a
few, but not endless vast caverns of them - and a fairly limited budget.
Your ideas are neat but the Fedora QA department is a considerably long
way away from having the resources to implement them.

Right now the test days are planned and arranged mostly by myself and/or
James Laska in, oh, maybe ten to twelve hours of total time for
arranging each one. We couldn't easily dedicate much more time than that
to arranging the test days, so any proposals for improving them need to
fit into that kind of time frame.

Or, of course - to take the standard Fedora developer tack - you could
do it yourself, and send the patches. :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 21:28:04 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:28:04 -0400
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <1239052784.8700.88.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238795271.31472.175.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904031458m78e5377cr1a7bdefa5dce3006@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239052682.8700.86.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239052784.8700.88.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1239053284.3841.73.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 14:19 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 14:18 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > FWIW I wrote something similar, but much more wordy and blathery, in the
> > context of Ubuntu's PPAs, back when I was at MDV:
> 
> The preceding mail nicely illustrates the dangers of the ctrl-enter
> keybinding when trying to insert a couple of line feeds and immediately
> afterwards paste the URL...
> 
> http://www.happyassassin.net/2007/10/24/mistakes/

Interesting. Perhaps you should make your concerns known to anyone that
will be implementing KoPeR then:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating/KojiPersonalRepos

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 21:36:09 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:36:09 -0700
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904040053q64ad8bf9t4d71426b0f0b77e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040044r705a0380neaf9985643913b3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904040050l11ebb4f8yc9343ae19e4d964f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904040053q64ad8bf9t4d71426b0f0b77e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239053769.8700.93.camel@adam.local.net>

On Sat, 2009-04-04 at 02:53 -0500, Adam Miller wrote:
> I'm not a fan of the 1-click. If you want it in the repo, then package
> it and put it in the repo. If it can't be in the repo for legal
> reasons then package it and submit it to rpmfusion.
> 
> If you have an outside rpm, then yum localinstall it.

Of course, there's another type of '1-click' install that really ought
to be implemented: a URI that'll be handled by packagekit.

Something like:

package://firefox

should call out (via packagekit) for the package named 'firefox' to be
installed, from the available repositories.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From debayanin at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 21:41:32 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 03:11:32 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <1239053769.8700.93.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904040044r705a0380neaf9985643913b3a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f12087800904040050l11ebb4f8yc9343ae19e4d964f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f12087800904040053q64ad8bf9t4d71426b0f0b77e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1239053769.8700.93.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904061441u628278dbyaf30a7702af12642@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/7 Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>:
>
> Something like:
>
> package://firefox
>
> should call out (via packagekit) for the package named 'firefox' to be
> installed, from the available repositories.

That already exists in Package-kit catalog schema
<http://www.packagekit.org/pk-faq.html#catalogs>.
I wonder why catalogs are such an under-utilised feature. Or are they
used a lot and I just havent seen them around?
In any case, why not have a URI like other official Fedora
repositories like extras, rawhide, fedora10 etc? That can solve inter
repository dependencies.
> --
> Adam Williamson

-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From debayanin at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 21:47:17 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 03:17:17 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904061441u628278dbyaf30a7702af12642@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904040044r705a0380neaf9985643913b3a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f12087800904040050l11ebb4f8yc9343ae19e4d964f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f12087800904040053q64ad8bf9t4d71426b0f0b77e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1239053769.8700.93.camel@adam.local.net>
	<a2cc2dbc0904061441u628278dbyaf30a7702af12642@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904061447u66729800xea71ad39104b22ca@mail.gmail.com>

I understood this till now:

1) 1 click install is BAD if it starts adding repositories (especially
3rd party)
2) A normal Fedora user adds 3rd party repositories all the time to
install normal stuff like media codecs etc
3) Fedora developers want to shield users from adding 3rd party
repositories. Users already do that all the time. But Fedora
developers dont want to make it any easier for them, else they may
open "gates to hell".
4) Hence the only thing that is keeping Fedora users from hell is the
difficult (ok lets call it secure?) process of repository addition and
their inability to grasp it quickly and use Google.

Right?




-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 21:53:23 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:53:23 -0700
Subject: No sound with fc11b
In-Reply-To: <2a28d2ab0904051441j35b99f57v316d53fb6b0441e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238967264.16960.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2a28d2ab0904051441j35b99f57v316d53fb6b0441e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239054803.8700.95.camel@adam.local.net>

On Sun, 2009-04-05 at 17:41 -0400, Dr. Diesel wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Louis E Garcia II
> <louisg00 at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>         On Sun, 2009-04-05 at 16:12 -0400, Louis E Garcia II wrote:
>         > Just install f11 beta and have no sound at all. Worked with
>         f10 fine.
>         > This is and intel core duo laptop. I have no idea were to
>         begin
>         > debugging. Any thoughts?
>         >
>         > -Thanks
>         
>         
>         00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801G (ICH7 Family)
>         High
>         Definition Audio Controller (rev 02)
>         
>         I've updated today and still can't get sound. I've played with
>         the new
>         palseaudio widet but sound was not muted. The mic seems to
>         pickup sound
>         but no playback.
>         
> 
> Way back in F7 or so I had to do the following to get my ICH7 sound to
> work:
> 
> Editing /etc/modprobe.conf
> 
> options snd-hda-intel index=0
> 
> to read:
> 
> options snd-hda-intel index=0 model=3stac
> 
> But that same Laptop on F10 today does not need that work-a-round, at
> least for me.
> 
> Give it a shot but I'm betting it will not help.

There's a gajillion different model= parameters, each of which helps
with some particular recalcitrant implementation of the HDA codec.

To have a stab at fixing Louis's issue, I'd need the output of:

cat /proc/asound/card/card?/codec#?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 21:57:28 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:57:28 -0700
Subject: How to best deal with bundled libraries
In-Reply-To: <d6e6dfeb0904051937q26b03649r70382619967598b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d6e6dfeb0904051937q26b03649r70382619967598b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239055048.8700.97.camel@adam.local.net>

On Sun, 2009-04-05 at 22:37 -0400, David Nalley wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> A number of PHP web applications have the nasty habit of bundling
> libraries with their packages.
> 
> Upstream's logic for doing so (that shared hosting might not have
> access to all of the libraries in question and leave the user with no
> way to install the libraries) at least seems plausible at first
> glance.
> 
> However, the question I bring is how best to deal with these, at least
> two options jump out at me:
> 
> 1. Patch source to point to the library installed on the system rather
> than the bundled
> OR
> 2. symlink from the bundled location to the system library.
> 
> #1 strikes me as cleaner, but also more difficult to maintain.
> 
> #2 strikes me as dead easy, but also a bit more hackish.
> 
> I've talked to several people individually, and none knew of a
> preference, hence I beg the wisdom of the list.

Ideally, #0: explain the situation to upstream and have them ship an
alternative version. This is done, for instance, for roundcubemail,
which has a 'full-fat' download with copies of libraries included, and a
'dependent' download which doesn't include any dependencies and is set
to look for system wide copies. Naturally, distributions use the
'dependent' tarball.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr  6 22:11:58 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 15:11:58 -0700
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <1239053284.3841.73.camel@ignacio.lan>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238795271.31472.175.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904031458m78e5377cr1a7bdefa5dce3006@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239052682.8700.86.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239052784.8700.88.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239053284.3841.73.camel@ignacio.lan>
Message-ID: <1239055918.8700.103.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 17:28 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 14:19 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 14:18 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > > FWIW I wrote something similar, but much more wordy and blathery, in the
> > > context of Ubuntu's PPAs, back when I was at MDV:
> > 
> > The preceding mail nicely illustrates the dangers of the ctrl-enter
> > keybinding when trying to insert a couple of line feeds and immediately
> > afterwards paste the URL...
> > 
> > http://www.happyassassin.net/2007/10/24/mistakes/
> 
> Interesting. Perhaps you should make your concerns known to anyone that
> will be implementing KoPeR then:
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating/KojiPersonalRepos

There's some key differences there. As the description and use cases
make clear, the point of KPR is basically to make it easier to do what
maintainers already in practice do today - use Koji scratch builds to
test potentially dangerous changes ahead of committing them to Rawhide
(or just test them quickly and avoid Rawhide's 24 hour turnaround).

Key points: the use cases (which all follow this pattern), the "work
flow" (note at the end "Bob commits his gtk2 changes to package SCM and
does a normal koji build") and - most importantly - the fact that KPRs
will only be available to Fedora maintainers, not to just about anyone
who signs up for one (as is the case for PPAs).

I do think that if anyone intended to use KPRs in a 'permanent' way,
that would be a bad idea, for the reasons given in my post.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From gnomeuser at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 22:30:26 2009
From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 00:30:26 +0200
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <1239055918.8700.103.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238795271.31472.175.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904031458m78e5377cr1a7bdefa5dce3006@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239052682.8700.86.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239052784.8700.88.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239053284.3841.73.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239055918.8700.103.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0904061530s6a8d7ba2s4edcd0c1ed35f013@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/7 Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>

> On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 17:28 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 14:19 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 14:18 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > > > FWIW I wrote something similar, but much more wordy and blathery, in
> the
> > > > context of Ubuntu's PPAs, back when I was at MDV:
> > >
> > > The preceding mail nicely illustrates the dangers of the ctrl-enter
> > > keybinding when trying to insert a couple of line feeds and immediately
> > > afterwards paste the URL...
> > >
> > > http://www.happyassassin.net/2007/10/24/mistakes/
> >
> > Interesting. Perhaps you should make your concerns known to anyone that
> > will be implementing KoPeR then:
> >
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating/KojiPersonalRepos
>
> There's some key differences there. As the description and use cases
> make clear, the point of KPR is basically to make it easier to do what
> maintainers already in practice do today - use Koji scratch builds to
> test potentially dangerous changes ahead of committing them to Rawhide
> (or just test them quickly and avoid Rawhide's 24 hour turnaround).
>
> Key points: the use cases (which all follow this pattern), the "work
> flow" (note at the end "Bob commits his gtk2 changes to package SCM and
> does a normal koji build") and - most importantly - the fact that KPRs
> will only be available to Fedora maintainers, not to just about anyone
> who signs up for one (as is the case for PPAs).
>
> I do think that if anyone intended to use KPRs in a 'permanent' way,
> that would be a bad idea, for the reasons given in my post.


Would a valid use case for a KPR be say the intrepid Mono SIG providing a
test bed for backported updated to the Mono stack to facilitate a smooth
experience without disturbing updates-testing where we might want to have
more immediate bugfixes flowing into which should not be held up by what
might grow to be a lenghty period of testing the full stack or is there
another preferred way to do such things?

- David
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr  7 00:10:21 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 02:10:21 +0200
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238795271.31472.175.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904031458m78e5377cr1a7bdefa5dce3006@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239052682.8700.86.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239052784.8700.88.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239053284.3841.73.camel@ignacio.lan>
Message-ID: <gre5ld$kc6$1@ger.gmane.org>

Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
> Interesting. Perhaps you should make your concerns known to anyone that
> will be implementing KoPeR then:
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating/KojiPersonalRepos

Restricting KoPeR isn't really going to prevent anybody from setting up a
third-party repository. They can already do that on the openSUSE Build
Service (which supports Fedora targets), on fedorapeople.org (if their
repository is small enough for the quota there) or on their own
infrastructure (for example, repo.calcforge.org runs off a VPS, and
my "build system" is a laptop). It just will make them not use KoPeR.
Packages built on the openSUSE Build Service consistently contain SUSEisms,
which the Build Service appears to hack support for into their Fedora
buildroots, or outright buildserviceisms, e.g. %{?fedora_version} instead
of %{?fedora}. So I'm not sure denying the use of KoPeR to some of the
interested parties is going to improve overall packaging quality. At least
packages in KoPeR are guaranteed to be buildable with Koji.

        Kevin Kofler



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 00:43:13 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 19:43:13 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>

Hey, I just saw this new project out there called Portable Ubuntu (
http://portableubuntu.sourceforge.net/).
Perhaps we could bring something like that to Fedora? We seem to be
incorporating more interoperability features lately, and I think this would
bring us quite a bit closer to that. Also it lets people try out Fedora
without rebooting or using a costly virtual machine. Even better, this
brings in the ability to run native Linux binaries on Windows because it is
running under the Linux kernel process. Interestingly enough, this could
also result in being able to do stuff like side by side testing of Wine vs
Windows of the same program.
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From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 00:47:16 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:47:16 -0400
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <1239055918.8700.103.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011439m4b39660aqc89dc8955f919915@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238623708.31472.74.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238795271.31472.175.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904031458m78e5377cr1a7bdefa5dce3006@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239052682.8700.86.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239052784.8700.88.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239053284.3841.73.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239055918.8700.103.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1239065236.3841.80.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 15:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> ... and - most importantly - the fact that KPRs
> will only be available to Fedora maintainers, not to just about anyone
> who signs up for one ...

Actually, I think this premise is false. At one point someone was
discussing a koper-foo-release package per KoPeR. Although eventually
the EVR in updates should get high enough to bump the KoPeR-supplied
package out. And of course if/when the KoPeR gets torn down then the
release package becomes invalid.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 00:48:24 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:48:24 -0400
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0904061530s6a8d7ba2s4edcd0c1ed35f013@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904011532u52ab313eib95d2673a0e4dc52@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238795271.31472.175.camel@code.and.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904031458m78e5377cr1a7bdefa5dce3006@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239052682.8700.86.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239052784.8700.88.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239053284.3841.73.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239055918.8700.103.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1dedbbfc0904061530s6a8d7ba2s4edcd0c1ed35f013@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239065304.3841.82.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 00:30 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
> Would a valid use case for a KPR be say the intrepid Mono SIG
> providing a test bed for backported updated to the Mono stack to
> facilitate a smooth experience without disturbing updates-testing
> where we might want to have more immediate bugfixes flowing into which
> should not be held up by what might grow to be a lenghty period of
> testing the full stack or is there another preferred way to do such
> things? 

That would be a perfect use case for it.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From a.badger at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 00:44:11 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:44:11 -0700
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904061447u66729800xea71ad39104b22ca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<1238645672.31472.99.camel@code.and.org>	<a2cc2dbc0904020447y4d412d64kba6d80e723eb1269@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>	<a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040044r705a0380neaf9985643913b3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904040050l11ebb4f8yc9343ae19e4d964f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904040053q64ad8bf9t4d71426b0f0b77e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239053769.8700.93.camel@adam.local.net>	<a2cc2dbc0904061441u628278dbyaf30a7702af12642@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904061447u66729800xea71ad39104b22ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DAA1DB.5010406@gmail.com>

Debayan Banerjee wrote:
> I understood this till now:
> 
> 1) 1 click install is BAD if it starts adding repositories (especially
> 3rd party)

True.

> 2) A normal Fedora user adds 3rd party repositories all the time to
> install normal stuff like media codecs etc

At least partially true.

> 3) Fedora developers want to shield users from adding 3rd party
> repositories. Users already do that all the time. But Fedora
> developers dont want to make it any easier for them, else they may
> open "gates to hell".

This is where your argument breaks down.  There are third party
repositories that work well with Fedora and third party repositories
that don't work well with Fedora.  Of the ones that work well, some are
illegal for us to point people at.  Of the ones that are left, we don't
control any of them so there's no guarantee that even if they work well
with Fedora today, have good security, etc, they'll be the same
tomorrow.  Fedora doesn't review the practices of third party
repositories and doing so could be seen as micromanaging.

So I think the majority of opinions here is that such a service would
not be a big help to Fedora users.  And it could be a big headache.
This might be a service that could be done outside of Fedora... but I
think a discussion of that would be a bit offtopic.

-Toshio

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From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 01:01:56 2009
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 06:01:56 +0500
Subject: pdf2djvu
Message-ID: <78323d480904061801r198138acgb63cb886d7a28b52@mail.gmail.com>

Rahul Sundaram <sundaram at fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Mani A wrote:
>> Other distros have solved the lib related problem.
>
> You need to be a lot more specific about what you are trying to do and
> what lib issue you are referring to.

1. There is no rpm in the repos

2. Tried to compile 0.5.3, 0.5.2, 0.5.1, 0.4.8 and 0.4.2 from source on
Fedora 10 x86-64 with all relevant devel files.



Installed:
  poppler-devel.x86_64 0:0.8.7-5.fc10
  poppler-glib-devel.x86_64 0:0.8.7-5.fc10
  poppler-qt-devel.x86_64 0:0.8.7-5.fc10
  poppler-qt4-devel.x86_64 0:0.8.7-5.fc10
djvulibre.x86_64                   3.5.20-3.fc10          installed
djvulibre-devel.x86_64             3.5.20-3.fc10          installed
djvulibre-libs.x86_64              3.5.20-3.fc10          installed
djvulibre-mozplugin.x86_64         3.5.20-3.fc10          installed



pdf2djvu-0.5.3 ./configure

checking for g++... g++
checking for C++ compiler default output file name... a.out
checking whether the C++ compiler works... yes
checking whether we are cross compiling... no
checking for suffix of executables...
checking for suffix of object files... o
checking whether we are using the GNU C++ compiler... yes
checking whether g++ accepts -g... yes
checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c
checking for windres... no
checking for iconv... yes
checking for pkg-config... /usr/bin/pkg-config
checking pkg-config is at least version 0.9.0... yes
checking for DJVULIBRE... yes
checking DjVuLibre fitness... buggy
configure: error: See <http://bugs.debian.org/458211>,
<http://bugs.debian.org/458086> for details.

________________________________________________________




df2djvu-0.4.8

make


[root@ pdf2djvu-0.4.8]# make
./tools/get-pdf2djvu-version > version.hh || ( rm -f version.hh; false
)
./tools/get-pdf2djvu-version: line 3: debian/changelog: No such file
or directory
g++ -Wall -O3 -pthread -I/usr/include/poppler   -DPOPPLER_VERSION=807
-DDJVULIBRE_BIN_PATH="\"/usr/bin\""   -c -o pdf2djvu.o pdf2djvu.cc
In file included from compoppler.hh:18,
                 from pdf2djvu.cc:22:
/usr/include/poppler/Object.h: In member function ?int
Object::arrayGetLength()?:
/usr/include/poppler/Object.h:244: warning: deprecated conversion from
string constant to ?char*?


----------------------
/usr/include/poppler/Object.h: In member function ?Dict*
Object::streamGetDict()?:
/usr/include/poppler/Object.h:325: warning: deprecated conversion from
string constant to ?char*?
/usr/include/poppler/UTF8.h: At global scope:
/usr/include/poppler/UTF8.h:9: warning: ?int mapUTF8(Unicode, char*,
int)? defined but not used
/usr/include/poppler/UTF8.h:45: warning: ?int mapUCS2(Unicode, char*,
int)? defined but not used
g++ -Wall -O3 -pthread -I/usr/include/poppler   -DPOPPLER_VERSION=807
-DDJVULIBRE_BIN_PATH="\"/usr/bin\""   -c -o debug.o debug.cc
g++ -Wall -O3 -pthread -I/usr/include/poppler   -DPOPPLER_VERSION=807
-DDJVULIBRE_BIN_PATH="\"/usr/bin\""   -c -o config.o config.cc
g++ -Wall -O3 -pthread -I/usr/include/poppler   -DPOPPLER_VERSION=807
-DDJVULIBRE_BIN_PATH="\"/usr/bin\""   -c -o system.o system.cc
system.cc: In constructor ?OSError::OSError(const std::string&)?:
system.cc:34: error: ?strerror? was not declared in this scope
make: *** [system.o] Error 1


___________________________________

pdf2djvu-0.4.2

/usr/include/poppler/UTF8.h: At global scope:
/usr/include/poppler/UTF8.h:9: warning: ?int mapUTF8(Unicode, char*,
int)? defined but not used
/usr/include/poppler/UTF8.h:45: warning: ?int mapUCS2(Unicode, char*,
int)? defined but not used
g++ -Wall -O3 -pthread -I/usr/include/poppler   -DPOPPLER_VERSION=807
-DDJVULIBRE_BIN_PATH="\"/usr/bin\""   -c -o debug.o debug.cc
g++ -Wall -O3 -pthread -I/usr/include/poppler   -DPOPPLER_VERSION=807
-DDJVULIBRE_BIN_PATH="\"/usr/bin\""   -c -o config.o config.cc
g++ -Wall -O3 -pthread -I/usr/include/poppler   -DPOPPLER_VERSION=807
-DDJVULIBRE_BIN_PATH="\"/usr/bin\""   -c -o system.o system.cc
system.cc: In constructor ?OSError::OSError()?:
system.cc:20: error: ?strerror? was not declared in this scope
make: *** [system.o] Error 1

________________________________________



Kubuntu-8.10

pdf2djvu 0.4.12-0  works fine

Dependencies:

libc6 (>=2.4)
libdjvulibre21 (>=3.5.20)
libgcc1 (>=1:4.1.1)
libgraphicsmagick++1 (1.1.11-3)
libgraphicsmagick1
libjpeg62 (6b-14)
libpoppler3
libstdc++6(>=4.2.1)
djvulibre-bin (>=3.5.20-5)
_____________________________________

Suse rpms

http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/12147680/com/pdf2djvu-0.5.0-1.6.x86_64.rpm.html


http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/12147680/com/pdf2djvu-0.5.0-1.6.x86_64.rpm.html
_____________________________________


Best

A. Mani



-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc



From louisg00 at bellsouth.net  Tue Apr  7 01:26:33 2009
From: louisg00 at bellsouth.net (Louis E Garcia II)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:26:33 -0400
Subject: No sound with fc11b
In-Reply-To: <1238967264.16960.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238967264.16960.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239067593.23259.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 14:53 -0700, Adam Williamson:
> On Sun, 2009-04-05 at 17:41 -0400, Dr. Diesel wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Louis E Garcia II
> > <louisg00 bellsouth net> wrote:
> >         On Sun, 2009-04-05 at 16:12 -0400, Louis E Garcia II wrote:
> >         > Just install f11 beta and have no sound at all. Worked with
> >         f10 fine.
> >         > This is and intel core duo laptop. I have no idea were to
> >         begin
> >         > debugging. Any thoughts?
> >         >
> >         > -Thanks
> >         
> >         
> >         00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801G (ICH7 Family)
> >         High
> >         Definition Audio Controller (rev 02)
> >         
> >         I've updated today and still can't get sound. I've played with
> >         the new
> >         palseaudio widet but sound was not muted. The mic seems to
> >         pickup sound
> >         but no playback.
> >         
> > 
> > Way back in F7 or so I had to do the following to get my ICH7 sound to
> > work:
> > 
> > Editing /etc/modprobe.conf
> > 
> > options snd-hda-intel index=0
> > 
> > to read:
> > 
> > options snd-hda-intel index=0 model=3stac
> > 
> > But that same Laptop on F10 today does not need that work-a-round, at
> > least for me.
> > 
> > Give it a shot but I'm betting it will not help.
> 
> There's a gajillion different model= parameters, each of which helps
> with some particular recalcitrant implementation of the HDA codec.
> 
> To have a stab at fixing Louis's issue, I'd need the output of:
> 
> cat /proc/asound/card/card?/codec#?
> -- 
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
> http://www.happyassassin.net

Should I open a bug report? Anything else you let me know.

$ cat /proc/asound/card0/codec#0
Codec: Conexant CX20551 (Waikiki)
Address: 0
Vendor Id: 0x14f15047
Subsystem Id: 0x103c30b2
Revision Id: 0x100000
Modem Function Group: 0x2
Default PCM:
    rates [0x40]: 48000
    bits [0x2]: 16
    formats [0x1]: PCM
Default Amp-In caps: N/A
Default Amp-Out caps: N/A
GPIO: io=0, o=0, i=0, unsolicited=0, wake=0
Node 0x10 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x41d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x17, nsteps=0x1e, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x1e 0x1e]
  Converter: stream=15, channel=0
  PCM:
    rates [0x40]: 48000
    bits [0x2]: 16
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Node 0x11 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x611: Stereo Digital
  Converter: stream=15, channel=0
  Digital:
  Digital category: 0x0
  PCM:
    rates [0x40]: 48000
    bits [0x2]: 16
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Node 0x12 [Audio Input] wcaps 0x100d1b: Stereo Amp-In R/L
  Amp-In caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x0e, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
  Amp-In vals:  [0x80 0x80] [0x80 0x80] [0x80 0x80] [0x09 0x09] [0x80
0x80] [0x80 0x80]
  Converter: stream=15, channel=0
  SDI-Select: 0
  PCM:
    rates [0x40]: 48000
    bits [0x2]: 16
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 6
     0x19 0x14 0x15 0x1a* 0x16 0x10
Node 0x13 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x40058d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x1f, nsteps=0x1e, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x11 0x11]
  Pincap 0x0001001c: OUT HP EAPD Detect
  EAPD 0x2: EAPD
  Pin Default 0x0221101f: [Jack] HP Out at Ext Front
    Conn = 1/8, Color = Black
    DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0xf
  Pin-ctls: 0xc0: OUT HP
  Unsolicited: tag=37, enabled=1
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 3
     0x19 0x10* 0x16
Node 0x14 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x40058d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x1f, nsteps=0x1e, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x1f 0x1f]
  Pincap 0x0000033c: IN OUT HP Detect
    Vref caps: HIZ 50
  Pin Default 0x02a1102e: [Jack] Mic at Ext Front
    Conn = 1/8, Color = Black
    DefAssociation = 0x2, Sequence = 0xe
  Pin-ctls: 0x20: IN VREF_HIZ
  Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 2
     0x19* 0x16
Node 0x15 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x40058d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x1f, nsteps=0x1e, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x1f 0x1f]
  Pincap 0x0000033c: IN OUT HP Detect
    Vref caps: HIZ 50
  Pin Default 0x40000180: [N/A] Line Out at Ext N/A
    Conn = Unknown, Color = Unknown
    DefAssociation = 0x8, Sequence = 0x0
    Misc = NO_PRESENCE
  Pin-ctls: 0x21: IN VREF_50
  Unsolicited: tag=38, enabled=1
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 3
     0x1c 0x19* 0x16
Node 0x16 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400401: Stereo
  Pincap 0x00000060: IN Balanced
  Pin Default 0x94330121: [Fixed] CD at Int Right
    Conn = ATAPI, Color = Unknown
    DefAssociation = 0x2, Sequence = 0x1
    Misc = NO_PRESENCE
  Pin-ctls: 0x20: IN
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Node 0x17 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400481: Stereo
  Pincap 0x00000324: IN Detect
    Vref caps: HIZ 50
  Pin Default 0x95a70122: [Fixed] Mic at Int Top
    Conn = Analog, Color = Unknown
    DefAssociation = 0x2, Sequence = 0x2
    Misc = NO_PRESENCE
  Pin-ctls: 0x21: IN VREF_50
  Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Node 0x18 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400701: Stereo Digital
  Pincap 0x00000010: OUT
  Pin Default 0x04440131: [Jack] SPDIF Out at Ext Right
    Conn = RCA, Color = Unknown
    DefAssociation = 0x3, Sequence = 0x1
    Misc = NO_PRESENCE
  Pin-ctls: 0x00:
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 1
     0x11
Node 0x19 [Audio Mixer] wcaps 0x20050b: Stereo Amp-In
  Amp-In caps: ofs=0x17, nsteps=0x1e, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
  Amp-In vals:  [0x17 0x17] [0x80 0x80] [0x80 0x80] [0x17 0x17]
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 4
     0x10 0x1b 0x1a 0x16
Node 0x1a [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x30050d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x03, stepsize=0x1f, mute=0
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x03 0x03]
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 3
     0x15 0x14 0x17*
Node 0x1b [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x300501: Stereo
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 2
     0x14* 0x15
Node 0x1c [Audio Output] wcaps 0x41d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x17, nsteps=0x1e, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x80 0x80]
  Converter: stream=15, channel=0
  PCM:
    rates [0x40]: 48000
    bits [0x2]: 16
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Node 0x1d [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x40058d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x1f, nsteps=0x1e, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x11 0x11]
  Pincap 0x00000314: OUT Detect
    Vref caps: HIZ 50
  Pin Default 0x92170110: [Fixed] Speaker at Int Front
    Conn = Analog, Color = Unknown
    DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x0
    Misc = NO_PRESENCE
  Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT VREF_HIZ
  Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 3
     0x1c* 0x19 0x16
Node 0x1e [Vendor Defined Widget] wcaps 0xf00000: Mono




From rc040203 at freenet.de  Sun Apr  5 18:26:53 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:26:53 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>

Hans de Goede wrote:
> On 04/05/2009 06:56 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> Hans de Goede wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I've just packaged this cool recently set free old style
>>> adventure game drascula, including music and subtitles
>>> in French, German, Spanish and Italian.
>>
>> Well I am reading this in drascula-music's readme.txt:
>>
>>  > 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes
>>  > reselling the
>>  > game as an individual item.
>>
>> Sounds like a "non-free" package to me.
>>
> 
> The license for this package has been vetted ok by Spot, 

This clause definitely doesn't threat Fedora, because Fedora doesn't 
ship the "the game itself", but as part of a larger bundle."

This clause only threatens those people who want to sell the package
=> IMO, this is a master piece of a "non-commercial use only clause".

> that is the
> readme.txt contains the *exact* same license text as many other
> games set free in cooperation between the original right holders and
> the scummvm project,
Their legitmate right .... it doesn't mean anything wrt. to the OSI or 
other OSS working principles.

 >and this license has been approved for Fedora,
> see:
> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-November/msg00020.html 
Well, IMO legal has failed or didn't review carefully.

They likely looked at whether this license is threatening Red Hat. They 
likely didn't look at "freedom of Software".


Ralf



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 02:08:03 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 07:38:03 +0530
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>
	<49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>

Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Hans de Goede wrote:

>>and this license has been approved for Fedora,
>> see:
>> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-November/msg00020.html
> 
> Well, IMO legal has failed or didn't review carefully.
> 
> They likely looked at whether this license is threatening Red Hat. They
> likely didn't look at "freedom of Software".

I don't see how FSF approving something as free says anything about Red
Hat Legal. Did you even bother to read the link?

Rahul



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr  7 02:04:45 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 04:04:45 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl> <49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <grecbt$1ln$1@ger.gmane.org>

Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> This clause definitely doesn't threat Fedora, because Fedora doesn't
> ship the "the game itself", but as part of a larger bundle."
> 
> This clause only threatens those people who want to sell the package
> => IMO, this is a master piece of a "non-commercial use only clause".

That clause isn't any different from the Bitstream Vera license which
governs DejaVu and a few other fonts in Fedora (even more if you count
other, more recent font licenses which use basically the same clause).
Those licenses have been accepted as Free by the FSF and others and
dropping all those fonts would set back font support in Fedora by several
years.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr  7 02:21:36 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 04:21:36 +0200
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gredbg$47r$1@ger.gmane.org>

King InuYasha wrote:
> Hey, I just saw this new project out there called Portable Ubuntu (
> http://portableubuntu.sourceforge.net/).
> Perhaps we could bring something like that to Fedora? We seem to be
> incorporating more interoperability features lately, and I think this
> would bring us quite a bit closer to that. Also it lets people try out
> Fedora without rebooting or using a costly virtual machine. Even better,
> this brings in the ability to run native Linux binaries on Windows because
> it is running under the Linux kernel process. Interestingly enough, this
> could also result in being able to do stuff like side by side testing of
> Wine vs Windows of the same program.

This uses coLinux which requires administration privileges, so it's not
quite your average "portable app". Plus, coLinux uses an old kernel (they
always lag behind the current kernel versions - right now, even the
development version is stuck at 2.6.22.18) and has performance issues and
other limitations. You also get a port of an ancient X11 (Xming uses a
shareware model where only old versions are available for free, right now
the latest "public domain" version (which is not really public domain, by
the way, most of it is X11-licensed) is 6.9.0.31, everything newer is
proprietary (non-redistributable) and has to be paid for, blame the
non-copyleft license of X11 for allowing that) shoehorned into a foreign,
non-X11 window manager, so you don't experience any of the modern X11
features in Fedora. Just rebooting into a live image is a much better
solution.

        Kevin Kofler



From jspaleta at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 02:41:48 2009
From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:41:48 -0800
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <604aa7910904061941k6751c6bat9cb1fc808a243d27@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:43 PM, King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey, I just saw this new project out there called Portable Ubuntu
> (http://portableubuntu.sourceforge.net/).

You should probably let Canonical Legal know about that project, its
probably violating the Trademark guidelines for the Ubuntu marks
running a non-Canonical built kernel and X server.

-jef



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 03:43:49 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:43:49 -0400
Subject: more trade reviews
Message-ID: <e76492710904062043y308c36e0g2df772e4fa9abae0@mail.gmail.com>

I realized that I got quite a lot of packages in the review queue. I'd
like to trade reviews with other packages. These are all audio related
and many of them are already in other distros for some time but we
fell behind :(

Here's the list (note that some of these depend on each other):


audio effects/synths packages (most of them are quite easy):

zynjacku - LV2 synths and plugins host
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492990

calf - Audio plugins pack
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492974

lv2-zynadd-plugins - LV2 port of the ZynAddSubFX engine
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492971

lv2dynparam - LV2 dynamic parameters extension
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492969

lv2-vocoder-plugins - Add a robotic effect to vocals
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492950

lv2-swh-plugins - LV2 ports of LADSPA swh plugins
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492945

dssi-vst - DSSI plugin wrapper for VST plugins
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492221




java packages (easy to easy-medium):

frinika - Music Workstation
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492203

toot2 - Java models and frameworks for Audio/MIDI
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492197

tootaudioservers - Toot2 Audio Server
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492201

jmod - Java Sound MODules Library
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492191

jVorbisEnc - Pure Java Ogg Vorbis Encoder
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491581

jjack - JACK audio driver for the Java Sound API
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491579

RasmusDSP - Embeddable Audio/MIDI processor
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491578




other packages (easy-medium):

swami - MIDI instrument and sound editor
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492520

minicomputer - Software Synthesizer
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=490588

jamin - JACK Audio Connection Kit (JACK) Audio Mastering interface
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489080


Feel free to give a hand,
Orcan



From peter at thecodergeek.com  Tue Apr  7 05:02:02 2009
From: peter at thecodergeek.com (Peter Gordon)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:02:02 -0700
Subject: Deluge: Slight License Change
Message-ID: <1239080522.6499.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hi, all.

I just committed an update to Deluge 1.1.6, which includes a slight
license change. In addition the GPLv3 terms, this new version adds an
OpenSSL exception to the license.

Please don't hesitate to let me know if this causes any issues, etc.
Thanks, and Regards.
-- 
Peter Gordon (codergeek42) <peter at thecodergeek.com>
Who am I? :: http://thecodergeek.com/about-me



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From philippe-f.carriere at wanadoo.fr  Tue Apr  7 05:12:26 2009
From: philippe-f.carriere at wanadoo.fr (Philippe Carriere)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 07:12:26 +0200
Subject: F11: alsa sequencer error
In-Reply-To: <20090406211540.4206F61B020@hormel.redhat.com>
References: <20090406211540.4206F61B020@hormel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239081146.3727.17.camel@localhost.localdomain>


> > Hi,
> > 
> > since the two or three last releases, I have the following errors:
> > 
> >     Qjackctl messages
> > 
> >         21:27:05.799 Patchbay deactivated.
> >         21:27:05.851 Statistics reset.
> >         21:27:05.853 Could not open ALSA sequencer as a client. ALSA
> > MIDI patchbay will be not available.
> >         ALSA lib seq_hw.c:457:(snd_seq_hw_open) open /dev/snd/seq
> > failed: Aucun fichier ou dossier de ce type
> > 
> >     Qsynth messages
> > 
> >         21:30:56.500 Qsynth1: Creating synthesizer engine...
> >         21:30:56.517 Qsynth1: Creating audio driver (jack)...
> >         21:30:56.638 Qsynth1: Creating MIDI router (alsa_seq)...
> >         21:30:56.638 Qsynth1: Creating MIDI driver (alsa_seq)...
> >         21:30:56.640 Qsynth1: Failed to create the MIDI driver
> > (alsa_seq). No MIDI input will be available.
> >         ALSA lib seq_hw.c:457:(snd_seq_hw_open) open /dev/snd/seq
> > failed: Aucun fichier ou dossier de ce type
> >         fluidsynth: error: Error opening ALSA sequencer
> > 
> > Finally, even simply using aplaymidi doesn't work:
> > 
> >         $ aplaymidi file.midi 
> >         ALSA lib seq_hw.c:457:(snd_seq_hw_open) open /dev/snd/seq
> > failed: No such file or directory
> >         Cannot open sequencer - No such file or directory
> > 
> > Present configuration is:
> >     $ uname -a
> >     Linux localhost.localdomain 2.6.29.1-37.rc1.fc11.x86_64 #1 SMP Wed
> > Apr 1 08:56:57 EDT 2009 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
> > 
> > Has something changed or is it a bug ?
> > 
> > Phil.
> > 
> > 

> If your sound hardware does not support MIDI, you need to run a software
> sequencer, e.g. timidity++.
> 
> For JACK output, use this:
> timidity -iADq -Oj --sequencer-ports=1
> 
> This one will use PulseAudio (through libao) for output instead:
> timidity -iADq -OO --sequencer-ports=1
> 
>         Kevin Kofler
> 

Well, rather than timidity I use Fluidsynth (the reason for which I
mentionned the Qsynth GUI). The problem is that Qjackctl fails before
any invocation of midi input or output, just starting (note that pure
audio works) while it was working up to approximately one week ago; the
situation changed with the latest releases of rawhide. 

Effectively, aplaymidi does not enable sound with no hardware
synthetizer but does not lead to an error: typically

   $  aplaymidi file.midi -p14:0

runs (of course without sounding) on the same hardware and standart F10.

I'm thus rather inclined to think that something is going wrong
somewhere (possibly incompatible changes between alsa standart and
jack).

Phil.




From peter at thecodergeek.com  Tue Apr  7 07:01:20 2009
From: peter at thecodergeek.com (Peter Gordon)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 00:01:20 -0700
Subject: Deluge: Slight License Change
In-Reply-To: <1239080522.6499.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239080522.6499.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239087680.4432.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 22:02 -0700, Peter Gordon wrote:
> In addition the GPLv3 terms [...]

Should read: "In addition to the GPLv3 terms..."

Apologies for the mis-type.
-- 
Peter Gordon (codergeek42) <peter at thecodergeek.com>
Who am I? :: http://thecodergeek.com/about-me



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From debayanin at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 07:19:46 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:49:46 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <49DAA1DB.5010406@gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904040044r705a0380neaf9985643913b3a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f12087800904040050l11ebb4f8yc9343ae19e4d964f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f12087800904040053q64ad8bf9t4d71426b0f0b77e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1239053769.8700.93.camel@adam.local.net>
	<a2cc2dbc0904061441u628278dbyaf30a7702af12642@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904061447u66729800xea71ad39104b22ca@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49DAA1DB.5010406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904070019j2d11f21dl3fa0a6fe2a92ceed@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/7 Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger at gmail.com>:
>
>> 3) Fedora developers want to shield users from adding 3rd party
>> repositories. Users already do that all the time. But Fedora
>> developers dont want to make it any easier for them, else they may
>> open "gates to hell".
>
> This is where your argument breaks down. ?There are third party
> repositories that work well with Fedora and third party repositories
> that don't work well with Fedora.
> So I think the majority of opinions here is that such a service would
> not be a big help to Fedora users. ?And it could be a big headache.
> This might be a service that could be done outside of Fedora... but I
> think a discussion of that would be a bit offtopic.

And hence I have abandoned all ideas of supporting 3rd party 1 click installs.
I have instead focussed only on official repositories. We can still
add Fedora specific URIs in the package-kit catalog schema. This will
enable one-click-installs for all official Fedora packages with no
security threat at all.
>
> -Toshio
>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From debayanin at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 07:32:58 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:02:58 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <49DAA1DB.5010406@gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904040044r705a0380neaf9985643913b3a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f12087800904040050l11ebb4f8yc9343ae19e4d964f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f12087800904040053q64ad8bf9t4d71426b0f0b77e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1239053769.8700.93.camel@adam.local.net>
	<a2cc2dbc0904061441u628278dbyaf30a7702af12642@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904061447u66729800xea71ad39104b22ca@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49DAA1DB.5010406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904070032x7fd58e88r117162f6abfe2a68@mail.gmail.com>

Just to clarify,

2009/4/7 Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger at gmail.com>:
> At least partially true.
>
> ?Of the ones that work well, some are
> illegal for us to point people at.

You are not pointing people anywhere. Fedora tells users absolutely
nothing about them. Infact, Fedora can explicitly tell them not to use
them at all.
But I am not pushing for an acceptance of the 3rd party enabled
package-kit 1 click install system. I understand the security risks,
>?Of the ones that are left, we don't
> control any of them so there's no guarantee that even if they work well
> with Fedora today, have good security, etc, they'll be the same
> tomorrow. ?Fedora doesn't review the practices of third party
> repositories and doing so could be seen as micromanaging.

Again, Fedora is not reviewing. Fedora has no say or opinion at all
about which 3rd party repository is better.
I followed Patrick's idea of the trust-vote system which would have
made it a user-advising-user thing. But that alsocan be compromised as
many believe.


>
> So I think the majority of opinions here is that such a service would
> not be a big help to Fedora users. ?And it could be a big headache.
> This might be a service that could be done outside of Fedora... but I
> think a discussion of that would be a bit offtopic.

I have no intention of doing it outside of Fedora. I wanted to work
with the community.
And I still want to know why no one uses PackageKit catalogs.
Of the various things i have suggested is there anything that does not
jeopardise the security of Fedora users but adds value?
>



-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 07:41:54 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 13:11:54 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904070019j2d11f21dl3fa0a6fe2a92ceed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D6357C.7030305@iinet.net.au>	<a2cc2dbc0904040035s5c3adc10k1ba9965d3bb4c473@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904040044r705a0380neaf9985643913b3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904040050l11ebb4f8yc9343ae19e4d964f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904040053q64ad8bf9t4d71426b0f0b77e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239053769.8700.93.camel@adam.local.net>	<a2cc2dbc0904061441u628278dbyaf30a7702af12642@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904061447u66729800xea71ad39104b22ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DAA1DB.5010406@gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904070019j2d11f21dl3fa0a6fe2a92ceed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DB03C2.4000200@fedoraproject.org>

Debayan Banerjee wrote:

> And hence I have abandoned all ideas of supporting 3rd party 1 click installs.
> I have instead focussed only on official repositories. We can still
> add Fedora specific URIs in the package-kit catalog schema. This will
> enable one-click-installs for all official Fedora packages with no
> security threat at all.

How is that different from

http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2008/09/09/packagekit-web-plugin/

Rahul



From debayanin at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 08:16:38 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:46:38 +0530
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <49DB03C2.4000200@fedoraproject.org>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904040044r705a0380neaf9985643913b3a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f12087800904040050l11ebb4f8yc9343ae19e4d964f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f12087800904040053q64ad8bf9t4d71426b0f0b77e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1239053769.8700.93.camel@adam.local.net>
	<a2cc2dbc0904061441u628278dbyaf30a7702af12642@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a2cc2dbc0904061447u66729800xea71ad39104b22ca@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49DAA1DB.5010406@gmail.com>
	<a2cc2dbc0904070019j2d11f21dl3fa0a6fe2a92ceed@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49DB03C2.4000200@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904070116s4790a25fx1c42fd3281ec6d12@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/7 Rahul Sundaram <sundaram at fedoraproject.org>:
> Debayan Banerjee wrote:
>
>> And hence I have abandoned all ideas of supporting 3rd party 1 click installs.
>> I have instead focussed only on official repositories. We can still
>> add Fedora specific URIs in the package-kit catalog schema. This will
>> enable one-click-installs for all official Fedora packages with no
>> security threat at all.
>
> How is that different from
>
> http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2008/09/09/packagekit-web-plugin/

Well it does not has the ability to add official repositories if
needed. It only installs a package if the repository is already added
to the system.

>
> Rahul
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From nils at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 08:40:03 2009
From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 10:40:03 +0200
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <385866f0904060806r3d82180ewba995dc5d99c2ffb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <348116500.14311238763483644.JavaMail.root@zmail06.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<1239013093.22865.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com>
	<385866f0904060806r3d82180ewba995dc5d99c2ffb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239093603.28937.4.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de>

Hi,

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 18:06 +0300, Muayyad AlSadi wrote:
> why dupplicating bugs
> 
> he said
> > As there's a bugzilla ticket about it **already**,
> 
> I asked for the number

I don't understand what you reply to...

Anyway, I'll reiterate (and hopefully clarify): I mentioned the Bugzilla
ticket number in this thread (#427413), you're all welcome to submit
RFEs in Bugzilla, they're just off-topic for the cleanup project.

Nils
-- 
Nils Philippsen      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase 
Red Hat               a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty
nils at redhat.com       nor Safety."  --  Benjamin Franklin, 1759
PGP fingerprint:      C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F  656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011



From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net  Tue Apr  7 08:46:22 2009
From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:46:22 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <grecbt$1ln$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl> <49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>
	<grecbt$1ln$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <ec49224f8e97967ed3f9ea6a978a952e.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>



Le Mar 7 avril 2009 04:04, Kevin Kofler a ?crit :
>
> Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> This clause definitely doesn't threat Fedora, because Fedora doesn't
>> ship the "the game itself", but as part of a larger bundle."
>>
>> This clause only threatens those people who want to sell the package
>> => IMO, this is a master piece of a "non-commercial use only
>> clause".
>
> That clause isn't any different from the Bitstream Vera license which
> governs DejaVu and a few other fonts in Fedora (even more if you count
> other, more recent font licenses which use basically the same clause).

Though the people that wrote the Vera licence did make clear in an
official legally binding FAQ they considered something as simple as a
package containing the fonts a "larger bundle", which is a much
lighter requirement than a full distro.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot



From chris.eveleigh at planningportal.gov.uk  Tue Apr  7 09:36:22 2009
From: chris.eveleigh at planningportal.gov.uk (Chris Eveleigh)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 10:36:22 +0100
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1239053037.8700.91.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238747739.3338.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238781080.8700.53.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238805746.23672.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239053037.8700.91.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1239096982.3641.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 14:23 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 19:42 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> 
> > Though with enough money, you could automate those too, with the use of
> > some cameras and video capture hardware, or for more $$$ high speed
> > digital sampling hardware... Get a hardware hacker to instrument the
> > laptop's backlight...
> > 
> > How much is stability worth to Red Hat Inc?
> 
> OK, reality check here: the Fedora QA department paid by Red Hat is a
> small handful of folks with a smattering of machines - we've got quite a
> few, but not endless vast caverns of them - and a fairly limited budget.
> Your ideas are neat but the Fedora QA department is a considerably long
> way away from having the resources to implement them.
> 
> Right now the test days are planned and arranged mostly by myself and/or
> James Laska in, oh, maybe ten to twelve hours of total time for
> arranging each one. We couldn't easily dedicate much more time than that
> to arranging the test days, so any proposals for improving them need to
> fit into that kind of time frame.
> 
> Or, of course - to take the standard Fedora developer tack - you could
> do it yourself, and send the patches. :)

i'm +1 on automated testing wherever possible.  is there an existing
project/SIG dedicated to coordinating community effort to create those
patches?  i'm imagining something that would end up being a set of
distro- (and possibly OS-) independent tools and procedures.

i love the test days - big thanks for those.  unfortunately i've not
managed to contribute to one yet - just too busy.  :-(

> -- 
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
> http://www.happyassassin.net
> 



From pmatilai at laiskiainen.org  Tue Apr  7 09:39:56 2009
From: pmatilai at laiskiainen.org (Panu Matilainen)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:39:56 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting Recap - 2009-04-06
In-Reply-To: <20090406202722.GA8760@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090406202722.GA8760@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0904071236450.17095@gotcha.dreamhost.com>

On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, Bill Nottingham wrote:

> Fedora Release Engineering Meeting - 2009-04-06
>
> == Rawhide status ==
>
> - PPC is broken due to sqlite causing yum to crash

sqlite-3.6.12-2.fc11 should fix this. Test reports welcome at
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494266.

 	- Panu -



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 09:51:43 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:21:43 +0530
Subject: dontzap - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <68720af30903311557g56687a80q1dd8bebb3e09f5f9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<68720af30903311557g56687a80q1dd8bebb3e09f5f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DB222F.9020505@fedoraproject.org>

Paulo Cavalcanti wrote:

> Whoever want them, please be my guest:
> 
> http://orion.lcg.ufrj.br/RPMS/src/x-kit-0.4.2-1.fc10.src.rpm
> 
> http://orion.lcg.ufrj.br/RPMS/src/dontzap-0.1.2-1.fc10.src.rpm
> 
> I have some interest in x-kit, because it can be useful to alter
> xorg.conf.
> 
> dontzap is just a bonus ...

dontzap

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494518

x-kit

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494517

Rahul















From nman64 at n-man.com  Tue Apr  7 10:09:56 2009
From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 05:09:56 -0500
Subject: Need advice pertaining to GSoC proposal
In-Reply-To: <a2cc2dbc0904070116s4790a25fx1c42fd3281ec6d12@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2cc2dbc0904011438x46d6645tb559334b7ea18d19@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DB03C2.4000200@fedoraproject.org>
	<a2cc2dbc0904070116s4790a25fx1c42fd3281ec6d12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904070510.01162.nman64@n-man.com>

On Tuesday 07 April 2009 03:16:38 Debayan Banerjee wrote:
>
> Well it does not has the ability to add official repositories if
> needed. It only installs a package if the repository is already added
> to the system.
>

All official repositories are provided in the fedora-release package.  If we 
ever have reason to add or change the repository collection, we release an 
update to that package.  There should never be any need to initiate a change 
to the Fedora repositories from a web browser.  Even if we did want to offer 
repository definitions outside of fedora-release, the configurations for them 
would be added as separate packages to the Fedora repositories, and the 
installation of those separate packages could be launched using the browser 
plugin.

-- 
Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes
nman64 at n-man.com

http://n-man.com/

LinkedIn:
http://linkedin.com/in/nman64

Have I been helpful?  Rate my assistance!
http://rate.affero.net/nman64/

All messages cryptographically signed:
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From kaboon at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 10:16:51 2009
From: kaboon at gmail.com (kaboon)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:16:51 +0200
Subject: NetworkManager - Can not store wireless pass phrase
In-Reply-To: <1239048563.28824.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49D3BD2C.3090203@kiewel-online.ch>
	<1238679590.3475.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D4C27B.20604@kiewel-online.ch>
	<1239048563.28824.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3f5430b30904070316nc8616d3kf02198d960cedce4@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 15:49 +0200, Uwe Kiewel wrote:
>> Julian Aloofi wrote:
>> > In general it should save your password automatically (I assume you use
>> > Fedora 10).
>>
>> Oh, my fault: It's Rawhide :-)
>>
>> > Maybe you should delete your WLAN from the connection list,
>> > connect, enter your password and just reboot and see whether it worked
>> > automatically.
>>
>> I have had also this idea, but it didn't help.
>
> Did you ever deny nm-applet or nm-connection-editor access to the Gnome
> Keyring? ?Run 'gnome-keyring-manager' or 'seahorse' ('yum install
> gnome-keyring-manager seahorse' if you don't have them installed) and
> see if nm-applet and nm-connection-editor has access to the key in
> question.
>
> If all else fails, you can use the atom-bomb approach and 'rm -rf
> ~/.gnome2/keyrings' and then try to set the passphrase in
> nm-connection-editor again.
>
> Dan
>
>
>>
>> Thnaks,
>> ? ? ? Uwe
>>
>> >
>> > Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2009, 21:14 +0200 schrieb Uwe Kiewel:
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> I cannot store the pass phrase for my wireless lan in NetworkManager.
>> >>
>> >> Procedure:
>> >> - left click on NM icon
>> >> - selecting my wireless lan
>> >> - entering my pass phrase
>> >> - connect successful
>> >>
>> >> Later:
>> >> - right click on NM icon
>> >> - edit connection -> wireless
>> >> - selecting my connection -> Edit -> wireless security
>> >> - box for pass phrase is empty
>> >> - entering my pass phrase
>> >> - clicking apply
>> >> - closing window
>> >>
>> >> Repeating this procedure, the in wireless security, there is no pass
>> >> phase :-(
>> >>
>> >> Is this a bug or is there an error in my procedure?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> ? ?Uwe
>> >>
>>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

Seems to be related to
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=453880 (I?ve had the same
issue in Rawhide - my wireless passphrases was not saved by
nm-applet).

I *just* solved the problem by following the steps described by Rex
Dieter (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=453880#c11) in
that bugreport except for installing gnome-keyring-manager since it
seems to be gone in Rawhide.

In short, I removed ~/gnome2/keyrings and installed gnome-keyring-pam
and did a logout / login. Now nm-applet is no longer prompting me for
a passphrase. It also looks like it?s saved in the config now.

-- 
Eelko Berkenpies
http://blog.berkenpies.nl/



From giallu at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 10:33:17 2009
From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:33:17 +0200
Subject: dontzap - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DB222F.9020505@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<68720af30903311557g56687a80q1dd8bebb3e09f5f9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DB222F.9020505@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <d5ad21470904070333l379f7f28m8964c77ae09386fc@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Rahul Sundaram
<sundaram at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> dontzap
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494518
>
> x-kit
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494517

I guess x-kit should be instead python-x-kit, or (IMHO even better)
pyhton-xkit like ubuntu does

http://packages.ubuntu.com/intrepid/python/python-xkit

-- 
Gianluca Sforna

http://morefedora.blogspot.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna



From mhlavink at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 10:45:19 2009
From: mhlavink at redhat.com (Michal Hlavinka)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:45:19 +0200
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>

On Tuesday 31 March 2009 14:55:11 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi
>
>
> https://launchpad.net/x-kit - DontZap is an application written in
> Python which relies on X-Kit and allows users to set the "DontZap"
> option in xorg.conf. Anyone interested in packaging this?
>
> You will need to package both x-kit and dontzap.
>
> Rahul

And what about

RFE: Zap after warning ( https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494528 )

They've chosen this way in opensuse - first time you press c+a+bs it produces 
warning (bell) and second time it works as usual

And bonus: it uses less space than two new packages :o)

Michal



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 10:54:25 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:24:25 +0530
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>

Michal Hlavinka wrote:
> And what about
> 
> RFE: Zap after warning ( https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494528 )
> 
> They've chosen this way in opensuse - first time you press c+a+bs it produces 
> warning (bell) and second time it works as usual
> 
> And bonus: it uses less space than two new packages :o)

If and when the RFE's gets accepted, maybe. I wouldn't count on it.
Meanwhile, x-kit is being used by a number of other programs and useful
to have in the repository.  If you have x-kit, dontzap is just a small
script. No big deal.

Rahul



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 10:52:27 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Tue,  7 Apr 2009 10:52:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090407 changes
Message-ID: <20090407105227.4B2A81F8248@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Tue Apr  7 06:15:03 UTC 2009

New package iaxclient
        Library for creating telephony solutions that interoperate with Asterisk
New package libgdata
        Library for the GData protocol
New package mingw32-glibmm24
        MinGW Windows C++ interface for GTK2 (a GUI library for X)
New package perl-Devel-Hide
        Forces the unavailability of specified Perl modules (for testing)
New package perl-Term-Size-Perl
        Perl extension for retrieving terminal size (Perl version)
New package perl-Test-Assertions
        Simple set of building blocks for both unit and runtime testing
Updated Packages:

Ajaxterm-0.10-8.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Ruben Kerkhof <ruben at rubenkerkhof.com> 0.10-8
- Fix ajaxterm homedir
- Add status command to init script


CodeAnalyst-gui-2.8.38-11.fc11
------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 - Suravee Suthikulpanit <suravee.suthikulpanit at amd.com>
- 2.8.38-11
- Remove --disable-dwarf from configuration
- Add patch ca-configure-libdwarf.patch
- Add patch ca-fix-splash.patch
- configure to build with libdwarf package


DeviceKit-disks-004-0.4.20090406git.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 004-0.1.20080406git.fc11
- New snapshot

* Mon Apr 06 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 004-0.2.20090406git.fc11
- New snapshot, this time with the right date

* Mon Apr 06 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 004-0.3.20090406git.fc11
- BR libudev-devel

* Mon Apr 06 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 004-0.4.20090406git.fc11
- Rebuild


alexandria-0.6.4.1-4.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.6.4.1-4
- Fix for strange behavior with right click on left pane
  (alexandria-Bugs-25021)


anjuta-2.26.0.1-1.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> - 1:2.26.0.1-1
- Version bump to 2.26.0.1.
  * Get rid of libgnomecanvas. (GNOME Bugzilla #571740)
  * Huge improvements in the tooltip area.
  * Prevent hang when pressing backspace in the editor.
  * Git plugin:
    + Fixed crash.
  * GtkSourceView editor plugin:
    + Actually save modified files on exit. (GNOME Bugzilla #574376)
  * Language support (C, C++, Java) plugin:
    + Showing calltips should not hinder editing. (GNOME Bugzilla #574802)
  * Scintilla editor plugin:
    + Use line endings correctly. (GNOME Bugzilla #574607)
  * Search plugin:
    + Should point to correct line number. (GNOME Bugzilla #576959)
  * Translation updates: pt_BR, en_GB, da, fi, fr, gl, el, it, ca, pt, sv, es,
    tr, hu, vi, de, sl, ru, ja, mr, ar, th and pl.
  * http://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/GNOME/sources/anjuta/2.26/anjuta-2.26.0.1.news
- configure fixes accepted by upstream.
- Stripped redundant translations from .mo files. (GNOME Bugzilla #474987)


bash-completion-1.0-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 1:1.0-1
- 1.0.


bittorrent-4.4.0-11.fc11
------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Paul Howarth <paul at city-fan.org> 4.4.0-11
- Add support for floating point values in bencode (#451496), resolving
  tracebacks with KeyError: <type 'float'>
  (thanks to Oleg Aprotskiy for the patch)
- Don't apply format string patch; it serves no purpose really
- Fix for KeyError: 'max_incomplete' in tracker (#451496)
- Define RPM macros in global context in spec file


bodhi-0.5.19-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Luke Macken <lmacken at redhat.com> - 0.5.19-1
- 0.5.19


bugzilla-3.2.3-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Itamar Reis Peixoto <itamar at ispbrasil.com.br> 3.2.3-1
- fix CVE-2009-1213


cloog-0.15-0.5.gitad322.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Dodji Seketeli <dodji at redhat.org> - 0.15-0.5.gitfcceb
- Added patch to fix #492794
- Need to add an argument to the --with-ppl switch now.


commoncpp2-1.7.3-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Andreas Thienemann <andreas at bawue.net> - 1.7.3-1
- Updated to new upstream version 1.7.3

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.6.1-3
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


deluge-1.1.6-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Peter Gordon <peter at thecodergeek.com> - 1.1.6-1
- Update to new upstream bug-fix release (1.1.6)
- Fix GPL version, add OpenSSL exception to License.
- Remove libtool, openssl-devel, and boost-devel BuildRequires (were only
  necessary when building the in-tarball libtorrent copy).


dovecot-1.2-0.rc2.1.fc11
------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Michal Hlavinka <mhlavink at redhat.com> - 1:1.2-0.rc2.1
- updated to 1.2.rc2


dump-0.4b41-13.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Adam Tkac <atkac redhat com> 0.4b41-13
- display dump level correctly in all cases (#493635)
- -A option is not valid when -P is specified, correct manual page (#490627)
- fix typos in manual pages (#489853)


eclipse-3.4.2-9.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Alexander Kurtakov <akurtako at redhat.com> 1:3.4.2-8
- Fix jdt owning dropins/jdt folder.

* Mon Apr 06 2009 Andrew Overholt <overholt at redhat.com> 1:3.4.2-9
- Re-add patch to build libswt-xulrunner instead of libswt-mozilla.
- RHBZ#484453
- Eclipse.org BZ#226356


eclipse-subclipse-1.6.0-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Sun Apr 26 2009 Robert Marcano <robert at marcanoonline.com> 1.6.0-1
- Update to upstream 1.6.0


eric-4.3.2-1.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Johan Cwiklinski <johan AT x-tnd DOT be> 4.3.2-1
- 4.3.2


fedora-ds-base-1.2.0-3.fc11
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> - 1.2.0-3
- re-enable ppc builds


gcx-0.9.11-6.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Lubomir Rintel (Fedora Astronomy) <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 0.9.11-6
- Fix a stack overflow (#494345)


glib2-2.20.0-1.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Mar 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.20.0-1
- Update to 2.20.0


glibmm24-2.20.0-1.fc11
----------------------
* Sat Mar 21 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 2.20.0-1
- Update to 2.20.0


gnome-commander-1.2.8-0.3.svn2517_trunk.fc11
--------------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Mamour Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
- rev 2517


gnome-disk-utility-0.3-0.1.20090406git.fc11
-------------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 0.3-0.1.20090406git.fc11
- New snapshot


gnumeric-1.8.4-1.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> 1:1.8.4-1
- Upgrade to 1.8.4 (#491769)


gridengine-6.2u2_1-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 - Orion Poplawski <orion at cora.nwra.com> - 6.2u2_1-1
- Update to 6.2u2_1
- Rebase several patches
- Add patch to rename getline()
- Add patch to compile with correct libs on ppc/ppc64


grub-0.97-46.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Peter Jones <pjones at redhat.com> - 0.97-46
- Update gnu-efi buildreq.
- Fix up pxe code for i386

* Fri Apr 03 2009 Peter Jones <pjones at redhat.com> - 0.97-45
- Add very basic PXE support for EFI.


gtkmm24-2.16.0-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 2.16.0-1
- Update to upstream 2.16.0


hosts3d-0.98-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Simon Wesp <cassmodiah at fedoraproject.org> - 0.98-1
- New upstream release


ibus-1.1.0.20090407-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Huang Peng <shawn.p.huang at gmail.com> - 1.1.0.20090407-1
- Update to ibus-1.1.0.20090407.
- Fix bug 491042 - ibus default trigger hotkeys
- Fix bug 492929 - ibus-hangul can cause gtk app to lockup
- Fix bug 493701 -  (ibus) imsettings disconnect/reconnect kills gtk app
- Fix bug 493687 -  ibus-hangul should default to vertical candidate selection
- Fix bug 493449 -  ibus broke Alt-F2 command auto-completion


iw-0.9.11-1.fc11
----------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com> 0.9.11-1
- Update to 0.9.11


java-1.6.0-openjdk-1.6.0.0-19.b14.fc11
--------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Lillian Angel <langel at redhat.com> - 1:1.6.0-19.b14
- Updated java-1.6.0-openjdk-lcms.patch


jd-2.4.0-0.1.svn2768_trunk.fc11
-------------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
- Update to latest trunk


kdepim-4.2.2-3.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-3
- apply upstream patch to fix crash in korganizer


kernel-2.6.29.1-52.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com>
- radeon: bust APIs and move to what we want in the end.

* Sun Apr 05 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com>
- drm-nouveau.patch: big update.  mostly cleanups, few functional changes
    Big code cleanup (the scary looking, but hopefully harmless part)
    Now using "full-featured" VBIOS parser from DDX
    Remove custom i2c code in favour of i2c_algo_bit
    Refuse to suspend, we can't possibly resume just yet
    Fix ramht insertions when a collision happens (rh#492427)
    No kms warning on pre-nv50 when kms not acutally enabled (rh#493222)

* Sat Apr 04 2009 Matthew Garrett <mjg at redhat.com>
- linux-2.6-add-qcserial.patch: Add the qcserial driver for Qualcomm modems

* Fri Apr 03 2009 Dave Jones <davej at redhat.com>
- x86/dma: unify definition of pci_unmap_addr* and pci_unmap_len macros

* Fri Apr 03 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- x86 E820 fixes from 2.6.30

* Fri Apr 03 2009 Jarod Wilson <jarod at redhat.com>
- Don't set up non-existent LVDS on systems with mobile Intel graphics chips
  that lie about having LVDS (like my Dell Studio Hybrid). Makes plymouth
  graphical boot function properly.
- Don't let acer-wmi do stupid things on unsupported systems (like, create
  a bogus rfkill entry in sysfs that effectively neuters wireless in
  NetworkManager on the Aspire One)


libgnomecanvasmm26-2.26.0-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 2.26.0-1
- Update to upstream 2.26.0


memtest86+-2.11-7.fc11
----------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Paulo Roma <roma at lcg.ufrj.br> - 2.11-7
- adapted the spec file for building the elf and 
  the bin versions #494157


mesa-7.5-0.7.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 7.5-0.7
- rebase to latest radeon-rewrite


mirrormanager-1.2.10-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Matt Domsch <mdomsch at fedoraproject.org> - 1.2.10-1
- improved crawler repomd.xml verification
- improved publiclist generation
- fix categorymap logic
- WSGI-ify web application
- vastly speed up report_mirror (no more stat()s on every file)
- vastly speed up umdl
- add rsyncFilter


mkvtoolnix-2.6.0-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Dominik Mierzejewski <rpm at greysector.net> 2.6.0-1
- updated to 2.6.0
- dropped upstreamed patches


moodle-1.9.4-7.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 1.9.4-7
- Move symlink scripts from pre to pretrans.
- Corrented moodle-cron BZ 494090.


mythes-es-0.20090406-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 0.20090406-1
- latest version


nautilus-2.26.1-2.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Tomas Bzatek <tbzatek at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2
- Fix dragging files via NFS moves instead of copy (#456515)


ncmpcpp-0.3.3-1.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Michal Nowak <mnowak at redhat.com> - 0.3.3-1
- dumped ncmpcpp-0.3.2-charset.patch -- upstream already 
- 0.3.3


nss-3.12.2.99.3-7.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Kai Engert <kaie at redhat.com> - 3.12.2.99.3-6
- fix softokn-freebl dependency for multilib (bug 494122)

* Mon Apr 06 2009 Kai Engert <kaie at redhat.com> - 3.12.2.99.3-7
- temporarily disable the test suite because of bug 494266


obexd-0.10-1.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 0.10-1
- Update to 0.10


pangomm-2.24.0-1.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 01 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 2.24.0-1
- Update to upstream 2.24.0


pcmanfm-0.5-7.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.5-7
- Fix the issue when application cannot be lauched from desktop menu
  (sourceforge bug 2313286)


perl-DBD-MySQL-4.010-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Marcela Ma??l????ov?? <mmaslano at redhat.com> - 4.010-1
- update to the latest version


perl-MooseX-AttributeHelpers-0.16-1.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.16-1
- update to 0.16


pigment-0.3.16-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 0.3.16-1
- Update to 0.3.16.
- Replace libtool m4 files with our own to get autoreconf working.


pigment-python-0.3.11-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 0.3.11-1
- Update to 0.3.11.
- Update minimum pigment requirement to 0.3.16.


powerpc-utils-1.1.3-2.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Roman Rakus <rrakus at redhat.com> - 1.1.3-1
- new upstream version 1.1.3


pyke-1.0.1-1.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> 1.0.1-1
- update to 1.0.1


python-oasa-0.13.1-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Henrique (LonelySpooky) Junior <lspooky at fedoraproject.org> - 0.13.1-1
- This release of OASA includes several fixes, most notably of lockup during generation
of images of complex systems of fused rings. Also image generation now works much faster
for larger systems


samba4-4.0.0-14alpha7.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 4.0.0-14alpha7
- Fix a build issue in samba4-common (RH bug #494243).


selinux-policy-3.6.10-9.fc11
----------------------------

spacechart-0.9.5-4.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Lubomir Rintel (Fedora Astronomy) <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 0.9.5-4
- Fix a couple of crashes
- Accept a file to open as command line argument, default to shipped map


sugar-0.84.4-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.3-1
- If user updates an activity installed in /usr/share/activities, both versions remain installed #707
- Sometimes an activity will not start #461
- Grey out the erase option if an activity bundle cannot be erased #620
- AP: Do not write timestamp when not managed to connect #623
- Correct date in 'About my Computer' CP section #639
- Make Jukebox the default activity for ogg-vorbis #423
- Find an available icon for displaying the removable device #627
- CP: Disallow the user from selecting any fallbacks if English (USA) is 
selected (#slo:561)
- Call *mount_finish when the callback is called #326
- Add full licence to data dir #357
- The logout option is available by default
- Resume from home is duplicating activity instances again #600

* Mon Apr 06 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.4-1
- new german and spanish translations


sugar-base-0.84.1-1.fc11
------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.1-1
- sugar/dispatch/license.txt is missing from the sugar-base source tarball #704


sugar-browse-108-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 108-1
- Browse hangs when trying to open file:/// #456


sugar-jukebox-8-1.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Sebastian Dziallas <sebastian at when.com> - 8-1
- update to version 8


sugar-log-18-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Steven M. Parrish <tuxbrewr at fedoraproject.org> 18-1
- New upstream release


sugar-read-66-1.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 66-1
- Support evince binding w/o document_links support #703
- Update translations


sugar-toolkit-0.84.4-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.3-1
- Journal Palette does not manage too many characters for a title correctly #610
- Bundlebuilder list_files: Better error handling #635
- Only call read_file once on activity startup #428
- Revert "Listen for map in Window instead of in Canvas (alsroot) #428"
- Use git ls-files instead of git-ls-files, to work with newer Git. d.sl.o #647
- Bundlebuilder: Don't include whole directory in src tarball #397

* Mon Apr 06 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.4-1
- new german and spanish translations


veusz-1.3-3.fc11
----------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Jeremy Sanders <jeremy at jeremysanders.net> - 1.3-1
- Update to Veusz 1.3

* Mon Apr 06 2009 Jeremy Sanders <jeremy at jeremysanders.net> - 1.3-2
- Fix readme location build issue

* Mon Apr 06 2009 Jeremy Sanders <jeremy at jeremysanders.net> - 1.3-3
- Remove file that is not included


xapian-bindings-1.0.11-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Peter Robinson<pbrobinson at gmail.com> 1.0.11-1
- Update to 1.0.11


xapian-core-1.0.11-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> - 1.0.11-1
- Update to 1.0.11


xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.1-8.fc11
------------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.1-7
- radeon-modeset-fix-nomodeset.patch: fix no modeset paths

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.1-8
- re-enable DFS for kms


xorg-x11-server-1.6.0-17.fc11
-----------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.6.0-17
- xserver-1.6.0-displayfd.patch: Add -displayfd commandline option.


Summary:
Added Packages: 6
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 69
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	ccrtp-1.6.0-3.fc11.i586 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.i586 requires libopensync.so.1
	libzrtpcpp-1.3.0-3.fc11.i586 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)
	twinkle-1.4.2-1.fc11.i586 requires libccext2-1.6.so.0
	twinkle-1.4.2-1.fc11.i586 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	ccrtp-1.6.0-3.fc11.i586 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0
	ccrtp-1.6.0-3.fc11.x86_64 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0()(64bit)
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.x86_64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	libzrtpcpp-1.3.0-3.fc11.i586 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0
	libzrtpcpp-1.3.0-3.fc11.x86_64 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0()(64bit)
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)
	twinkle-1.4.2-1.fc11.x86_64 requires libccext2-1.6.so.0()(64bit)
	twinkle-1.4.2-1.fc11.x86_64 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	ccrtp-1.6.0-3.fc11.ppc requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0
	ccrtp-1.6.0-3.fc11.ppc64 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0()(64bit)
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc requires libopensync.so.1
	libzrtpcpp-1.3.0-3.fc11.ppc requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0
	libzrtpcpp-1.3.0-3.fc11.ppc64 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0()(64bit)
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)
	twinkle-1.4.2-1.fc11.ppc requires libccext2-1.6.so.0
	twinkle-1.4.2-1.fc11.ppc requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	ccrtp-1.6.0-3.fc11.ppc64 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0()(64bit)
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	libopensync-plugin-vformat-0.36-2.fc11.ppc64 requires libopensync.so.1()(64bit)
	libzrtpcpp-1.3.0-3.fc11.ppc64 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0()(64bit)
	perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-1.fc11.noarch requires perl(Term::Size::Any)
	twinkle-1.4.2-1.fc11.ppc64 requires libccext2-1.6.so.0()(64bit)
	twinkle-1.4.2-1.fc11.ppc64 requires libccgnu2-1.6.so.0()(64bit)





From rc040203 at freenet.de  Tue Apr  7 03:42:19 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 05:42:19 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>	<49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>
	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> Hans de Goede wrote:
> 
>>> and this license has been approved for Fedora,
>>> see:
>>> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-November/msg00020.html
>> Well, IMO legal has failed or didn't review carefully.
>>
>> They likely looked at whether this license is threatening Red Hat. They
>> likely didn't look at "freedom of Software".
> 
> I don't see how FSF approving something as free says anything about Red
> Hat Legal.
Spot is the Red Hat Legal spokesperson. He is the one having the final 
say around here and is the person I am considering to be responsible for 
processing legal requests.

> Did you even bother to read the link?
Yes, ... and?

Answers from "legal" are a matter of "how to ask questions" - IMO, they 
all failed.






From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 11:17:04 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 06:17:04 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <gredbg$47r$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<gredbg$47r$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904070417medc438dge25ebf0d58321f06@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> wrote:

> King InuYasha wrote:
> > Hey, I just saw this new project out there called Portable Ubuntu (
> > http://portableubuntu.sourceforge.net/).
> > Perhaps we could bring something like that to Fedora? We seem to be
> > incorporating more interoperability features lately, and I think this
> > would bring us quite a bit closer to that. Also it lets people try out
> > Fedora without rebooting or using a costly virtual machine. Even better,
> > this brings in the ability to run native Linux binaries on Windows
> because
> > it is running under the Linux kernel process. Interestingly enough, this
> > could also result in being able to do stuff like side by side testing of
> > Wine vs Windows of the same program.
>
> This uses coLinux which requires administration privileges, so it's not
> quite your average "portable app". Plus, coLinux uses an old kernel (they
> always lag behind the current kernel versions - right now, even the
> development version is stuck at 2.6.22.18) and has performance issues and
> other limitations. You also get a port of an ancient X11 (Xming uses a
> shareware model where only old versions are available for free, right now
> the latest "public domain" version (which is not really public domain, by
> the way, most of it is X11-licensed) is 6.9.0.31, everything newer is
> proprietary (non-redistributable) and has to be paid for, blame the
> non-copyleft license of X11 for allowing that) shoehorned into a foreign,
> non-X11 window manager, so you don't experience any of the modern X11
> features in Fedora. Just rebooting into a live image is a much better
> solution.
>
>        Kevin Kofler
>


Couldn't the patches [used to make the coLinux kernel possible] be forward
ported to the latest 2.6.x kernel? As for the X11 issue, I did notice that.
However it seems that he provides the latest versions of all of his patches
(http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingCode/) even though the instructions on
how to use them are kinda out of date (
http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/cross.php). I think this is more
or less the same situation with the Xchat Windows binaries, except this guy
has more legal ground, especially with most of it being licensed either LGPL
or X11.


On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:43 PM, King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hey, I just saw this new project out there called Portable Ubuntu
> > (http://portableubuntu.sourceforge.net/).
>
> You should probably let Canonical Legal know about that project, its
> probably violating the Trademark guidelines for the Ubuntu marks
> running a non-Canonical built kernel and X server.
>
> -jef
>


I have no idea on how to contact Canonical's legal department, and I have
looked over Canonical's and Ubuntu's site. Not much help there.
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 12:05:30 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:35:30 +0530
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>	<49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org>

Ralf Corsepius wrote:

> Spot is the Red Hat Legal spokesperson. He is the one having the final
> say around here and is the person I am considering to be responsible for
> processing legal requests.
> 
>> Did you even bother to read the link?
> Yes, ... and?
> 
> Answers from "legal" are a matter of "how to ask questions" - IMO, they
> all failed.

Considering that you actually think binaries not available freely is the
same as non-free, I will take FSF and Red Hat Legal's opinion over
yours. Also if you consider that game content as non-free you might want
to look closely at so much of the other content licenses such as Vera or
OFL.  Atleast, then you would have a consistent stand point.


Rahul



From rjones at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 12:20:37 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:20:37 +0100
Subject: Next FESCo meeting?
Message-ID: <20090407122037.GA1644@amd.home.annexia.org>

Has a date for this been decided?  I just note that this Friday is
'Good Friday' (both a christian festival, and a holiday in parts of
the world).

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines.  Tiny program with many
powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top



From bpepple at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 13:00:15 2009
From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:00:15 -0400
Subject: Next FESCo meeting?
In-Reply-To: <20090407122037.GA1644@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <20090407122037.GA1644@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <1239109215.2857.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 13:20 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> Has a date for this been decided?  I just note that this Friday is
> 'Good Friday' (both a christian festival, and a holiday in parts of
> the world).

As far as I'm aware we're still planning to have the meeting on Friday.

Later,
/B
-- 
Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org>

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bpepple
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E
BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B  CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E
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From maxamillion at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 13:09:46 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:09:46 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904070417medc438dge25ebf0d58321f06@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<gredbg$47r$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<8278b1b0904070417medc438dge25ebf0d58321f06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904070609n709bd63dnae393466a71e047@mail.gmail.com>

I've got a friend on Canonical's payroll, I'll ping him about the
issue and see if he knows the proper channels.

-Adam

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 6:17 AM, King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> wrote:
>>
>> King InuYasha wrote:
>> > Hey, I just saw this new project out there called Portable Ubuntu (
>> > http://portableubuntu.sourceforge.net/).
>> > Perhaps we could bring something like that to Fedora? We seem to be
>> > incorporating more interoperability features lately, and I think this
>> > would bring us quite a bit closer to that. Also it lets people try out
>> > Fedora without rebooting or using a costly virtual machine. Even better,
>> > this brings in the ability to run native Linux binaries on Windows
>> > because
>> > it is running under the Linux kernel process. Interestingly enough, this
>> > could also result in being able to do stuff like side by side testing of
>> > Wine vs Windows of the same program.
>>
>> This uses coLinux which requires administration privileges, so it's not
>> quite your average "portable app". Plus, coLinux uses an old kernel (they
>> always lag behind the current kernel versions - right now, even the
>> development version is stuck at 2.6.22.18) and has performance issues and
>> other limitations. You also get a port of an ancient X11 (Xming uses a
>> shareware model where only old versions are available for free, right now
>> the latest "public domain" version (which is not really public domain, by
>> the way, most of it is X11-licensed) is 6.9.0.31, everything newer is
>> proprietary (non-redistributable) and has to be paid for, blame the
>> non-copyleft license of X11 for allowing that) shoehorned into a foreign,
>> non-X11 window manager, so you don't experience any of the modern X11
>> features in Fedora. Just rebooting into a live image is a much better
>> solution.
>>
>> ? ? ? ?Kevin Kofler
>
>
> Couldn't the patches [used to make the coLinux kernel possible] be forward
> ported to the latest 2.6.x kernel? As for the X11 issue, I did notice that.
> However it seems that he provides the latest versions of all of his patches
> (http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingCode/) even though the instructions on
> how to use them are kinda out of date
> (http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/cross.php). I think this is more
> or less the same situation with the Xchat Windows binaries, except this guy
> has more legal ground, especially with most of it being licensed either LGPL
> or X11.
>
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Jeff Spaleta?<jspaleta at gmail.com>?wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:43 PM, King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hey, I just saw this new project out there called Portable Ubuntu
>> > (http://portableubuntu.sourceforge.net/).
>>
>> You should probably let Canonical Legal know about that project, its
>> probably violating the Trademark guidelines for the Ubuntu marks
>> running a non-Canonical built kernel and X server.
>>
>> -jef
>
>
> I have no idea on how to contact Canonical's legal department, and I have
> looked over Canonical's and Ubuntu's site. Not much help there.
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Tue Apr  7 13:34:27 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:34:27 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>	<49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>	<49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>
	<49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> 
>> Spot is the Red Hat Legal spokesperson. He is the one having the final
>> say around here and is the person I am considering to be responsible for
>> processing legal requests.
>>
>>> Did you even bother to read the link?
>> Yes, ... and?
>>
>> Answers from "legal" are a matter of "how to ask questions" - IMO, they
>> all failed.
> 
> Considering that you actually think binaries not available freely is the
> same as non-free, I will take FSF and Red Hat Legal's opinion over
> yours. Also if you consider that game content as non-free you might want
> to look closely at so much of the other content licenses such as Vera or
> OFL.  Atleast, then you would have a consistent stand point.
Where am I inconsistent?

I say Fedora is inconsiseent: These sound files, images, etc. are not 
free and qualify Fedora as "non-free". Fedora's separation between 
"data" and "programs" is absurd.



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 13:37:58 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:37:58 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904070609n709bd63dnae393466a71e047@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<gredbg$47r$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<8278b1b0904070417medc438dge25ebf0d58321f06@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904070609n709bd63dnae393466a71e047@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904070637x6c4f855ah5a072ad404a29418@mail.gmail.com>

Got a reply already. They are aware and it is "currently under review by legal".

-Adam

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Adam Miller <maxamillion at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've got a friend on Canonical's payroll, I'll ping him about the
> issue and see if he knows the proper channels.
>
> -Adam
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 6:17 AM, King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> wrote:
>>>
>>> King InuYasha wrote:
>>> > Hey, I just saw this new project out there called Portable Ubuntu (
>>> > http://portableubuntu.sourceforge.net/).
>>> > Perhaps we could bring something like that to Fedora? We seem to be
>>> > incorporating more interoperability features lately, and I think this
>>> > would bring us quite a bit closer to that. Also it lets people try out
>>> > Fedora without rebooting or using a costly virtual machine. Even better,
>>> > this brings in the ability to run native Linux binaries on Windows
>>> > because
>>> > it is running under the Linux kernel process. Interestingly enough, this
>>> > could also result in being able to do stuff like side by side testing of
>>> > Wine vs Windows of the same program.
>>>
>>> This uses coLinux which requires administration privileges, so it's not
>>> quite your average "portable app". Plus, coLinux uses an old kernel (they
>>> always lag behind the current kernel versions - right now, even the
>>> development version is stuck at 2.6.22.18) and has performance issues and
>>> other limitations. You also get a port of an ancient X11 (Xming uses a
>>> shareware model where only old versions are available for free, right now
>>> the latest "public domain" version (which is not really public domain, by
>>> the way, most of it is X11-licensed) is 6.9.0.31, everything newer is
>>> proprietary (non-redistributable) and has to be paid for, blame the
>>> non-copyleft license of X11 for allowing that) shoehorned into a foreign,
>>> non-X11 window manager, so you don't experience any of the modern X11
>>> features in Fedora. Just rebooting into a live image is a much better
>>> solution.
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ?Kevin Kofler
>>
>>
>> Couldn't the patches [used to make the coLinux kernel possible] be forward
>> ported to the latest 2.6.x kernel? As for the X11 issue, I did notice that.
>> However it seems that he provides the latest versions of all of his patches
>> (http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingCode/) even though the instructions on
>> how to use them are kinda out of date
>> (http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/cross.php). I think this is more
>> or less the same situation with the Xchat Windows binaries, except this guy
>> has more legal ground, especially with most of it being licensed either LGPL
>> or X11.
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Jeff Spaleta?<jspaleta at gmail.com>?wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:43 PM, King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Hey, I just saw this new project out there called Portable Ubuntu
>>> > (http://portableubuntu.sourceforge.net/).
>>>
>>> You should probably let Canonical Legal know about that project, its
>>> probably violating the Trademark guidelines for the Ubuntu marks
>>> running a non-Canonical built kernel and X server.
>>>
>>> -jef
>>
>>
>> I have no idea on how to contact Canonical's legal department, and I have
>> looked over Canonical's and Ubuntu's site. Not much help there.
>> --
>> fedora-devel-list mailing list
>> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> () ?ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> /\ ?www.asciiribbon.org ? - against proprietary attachments
>



-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 13:45:40 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:15:40 +0530
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>	<49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>	<49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>	<49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org>

Ralf Corsepius wrote:

> I say Fedora is inconsiseent: These sound files, images, etc. are not
> free and qualify Fedora as "non-free". Fedora's separation between
> "data" and "programs" is absurd.

So all OFL and Vera licensed fonts are non-free? Every group that I know
of including FSF and Debian differentiate between data and content. At
times, it is a gray area but is hardly absurd. Here is the FSF guidelines:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html

Are you coming up with your own definition of non-free?

Rahul



From jonathanb at ami.com  Tue Apr  7 13:57:29 2009
From: jonathanb at ami.com (jonathan barkelew)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:57:29 -0400
Subject: UEFI Compatibility Issues in Fedora 10
Message-ID: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE502D5947B@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>

I have been doing a lot of testing with UEFI-native booting to Linux recently, and while the results
have been quite positive, I have discovered a couple of issues that are preventing Fedora 10 from
being fully UEFI compatible.

The first issue is with the bootloader: GRUB will fail if memory cannot be allocated at address 1MB.
It is not required by UEFI that this address be made available to the OS, and as such GRUB should be
able to respond appropriately if 1MB is not available.

The second issue is far more pressing, and much more difficult to solve. The linux kernel will behave
incorrectly if more than 400k of runtime memory is declared by system firmware. The kernel attempts
to map all UEFI runtime memory into the kernel fixmap table, and any requests to map more than 400k
are silently ignored. If this memory is accessed later in the boot process (after transition to virtual
mode), the kernel will panic. It is my understanding that this mechanism was designed to enable kexec
functionality, but this mechanism is UEFI non-compliant. If Fedora is ever to be reliably booted on
UEFI systems, this issue must be addressed.

I've briefly contacted the LKML, but after very little discussion the issue was forgotten. I personally
don't know how to solve the runtime boot problem while still enabling kexec, but it was my hope
that if the Fedora community were involved a solution might be found.

- Jonathan Barkelew
BIOS Engineer
American Megatrends

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From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net  Tue Apr  7 14:00:02 2009
From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:00:02 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl> <49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>
	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org> <49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>
	<49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org> <49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>
	<49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <bc96aa410fc7c88c4aa1e9e3096c3fa1.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>



Le Mar 7 avril 2009 15:45, Rahul Sundaram a ?crit :
>
> Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>
>> I say Fedora is inconsiseent: These sound files, images, etc. are
>> not
>> free and qualify Fedora as "non-free". Fedora's separation between
>> "data" and "programs" is absurd.
>
> So all OFL and Vera licensed fonts are non-free?

We do not classify fonts as data in Fedora. They have to pass the same
freeness requirements as programs.

For OFL, some people like Bruce Perens feel it's not protective enough
and almost akin to public domain

For Vera, DejaVu has been proving for years the FSF four freedoms
could be exercised. The only forbidden use-cases is use of the
original trademark and distribution for profit of naked fonts not
included in a larger software package, with the official FAQ
clarifying a standalone rpm is a larger package.

So please do not drag Fedora fonts in your argument.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 14:07:45 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:37:45 +0530
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <bc96aa410fc7c88c4aa1e9e3096c3fa1.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>
	<49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>	<49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>	<49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org>
	<bc96aa410fc7c88c4aa1e9e3096c3fa1.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <49DB5E31.6040704@fedoraproject.org>

Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> 
> So please do not drag Fedora fonts in your argument.

Why not? OFL has similar requirements about not selling it as separately
as the game data requirements that Ralf objects to.

Rahul



From giallu at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 14:08:23 2009
From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:08:23 +0200
Subject: UEFI Compatibility Issues in Fedora 10
In-Reply-To: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE502D5947B@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
References: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE502D5947B@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
Message-ID: <d5ad21470904070708m12de56f8m7c342b9fb1a51f84@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 3:57 PM, jonathan barkelew <jonathanb at ami.com> wrote:
> I have been doing a lot of testing with UEFI-native booting to Linux
> recently, and while the results
> have been quite positive, I have discovered a couple of issues that are
> preventing Fedora 10 from
> being fully UEFI compatible.
>
Are you aware of the UEFI test day that will take place on Thursday?

It would be really good if you could participate:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-04-09_UEFI
and report your findings

-- 
Gianluca Sforna

http://morefedora.blogspot.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Tue Apr  7 14:08:21 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:08:21 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>	<49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>	<49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>	<49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org>	<49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>
	<49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49DB5E55.2010107@freenet.de>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> 
>> I say Fedora is inconsiseent: These sound files, images, etc. are not
>> free and qualify Fedora as "non-free". Fedora's separation between
>> "data" and "programs" is absurd.
> 
> So all OFL and Vera licensed fonts are non-free? Every group that I know
> of including FSF and Debian differentiate between data and content. At
> times, it is a gray area but is hardly absurd. Here is the FSF guidelines:
> 
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html
> 
> Are you coming up with your own definition of non-free?
"Free sources": Legal to copy, reuse and modify.







From rc040203 at freenet.de  Tue Apr  7 14:17:31 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:17:31 +0200
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <bc96aa410fc7c88c4aa1e9e3096c3fa1.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>
	<49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>	<49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>	<49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org>
	<bc96aa410fc7c88c4aa1e9e3096c3fa1.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <49DB607B.6040403@freenet.de>

Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> 
> Le Mar 7 avril 2009 15:45, Rahul Sundaram a ?crit :
>> Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>
>>> I say Fedora is inconsiseent: These sound files, images, etc. are
>>> not
>>> free and qualify Fedora as "non-free". Fedora's separation between
>>> "data" and "programs" is absurd.
>> So all OFL and Vera licensed fonts are non-free?
> 
> We do not classify fonts as data in Fedora. They have to pass the same
> freeness requirements as programs.
> 
> For OFL, some people like Bruce Perens feel it's not protective enough
> and almost akin to public domain
> 
> For Vera, DejaVu has been proving for years the FSF four freedoms
> could be exercised.
Sure, esp. when taking "artistic rights" and "trademarks" into account. 
But that's not my point.

> The only forbidden use-cases is use of the
> original trademark and distribution for profit of naked fonts not
> included in a larger software package, with the official FAQ
> clarifying a standalone rpm is a larger package.
My point is: "Data" also is source.

Therefore, I consider it to be essential that this data may be
"reused/copied" (e.g. adding fonts or jpgs to applications)
and to be "modified" (e.g. to derive icons for applications) etc.

In this particular case, the license doesn't allow "commercial 
distribution" without their "frame-work".



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 14:29:25 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:29:25 -0600
Subject: pdf2djvu
In-Reply-To: <78323d480904061801r198138acgb63cb886d7a28b52@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78323d480904061801r198138acgb63cb886d7a28b52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904070729r767d189du9c1b86d0ba5bbb57@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 7:01 PM, Mani A <a.mani.cms at gmail.com> wrote:
> pdf2djvu-0.5.3 ./configure
>
> checking for g++... g++
> checking for C++ compiler default output file name... a.out
> checking whether the C++ compiler works... yes
> checking whether we are cross compiling... no
> checking for suffix of executables...
> checking for suffix of object files... o
> checking whether we are using the GNU C++ compiler... yes
> checking whether g++ accepts -g... yes
> checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c
> checking for windres... no
> checking for iconv... yes
> checking for pkg-config... /usr/bin/pkg-config
> checking pkg-config is at least version 0.9.0... yes
> checking for DJVULIBRE... yes
> checking DjVuLibre fitness... buggy
> configure: error: See <http://bugs.debian.org/458211>,
> <http://bugs.debian.org/458086> for details.

So what those debian bugs show is that there are a couple of problems
with djvulibre that need patching.  What you should do is file a bug
against the djvulibre package giving the URLs to these two bugs, and
asking that the debian patches be applied to the Fedora package.

Alternatively, since djvulibre 3.5.21 was released after debian
patched their version, you could ask the maintainer to upgrade to
3.5.21 and see if that fixes the problem.  (Debian squeeze and sid
both have 3.5.21, by the way.)  Note that debian has patched 3.5.21,
too, in response to a few bug reports; see
http://packages.debian.org/sid/djvulibre-bin.
--
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net  Tue Apr  7 14:34:41 2009
From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:34:41 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49DB5E31.6040704@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl> <49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>
	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org> <49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>
	<49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org> <49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>
	<49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org>
	<bc96aa410fc7c88c4aa1e9e3096c3fa1.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>
	<49DB5E31.6040704@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <a574299bb8f6a350f5773b67e6564dcd.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>



Le Mar 7 avril 2009 16:07, Rahul Sundaram a ?crit :
>
> Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>>
>> So please do not drag Fedora fonts in your argument.
>
> Why not? OFL has similar requirements about not selling it as
> separately
> as the game data requirements that Ralf objects to.

I don't think the level of separation is the same.

OFL says "with any software", without qualifying the software
complexity (a court would probably agree a 3-line script is
"software").

Vera says "a larger software package" but the people in charge
published a clarification that a simple standalone package meets the
requirements.

This license says "as part of a larger & possibly commercial software
distribution (such as a Linux distribution or magazine coverdisk)"

This seems a much higher bar to meet to me. A linux distro or magazine
coverdisk is usually hundreds of megs of other stuff if not more.

However IIRC we have some non-modifiable "content" in the distro,
which is clearly not free at all. This would have been a better
example to take IMHO.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 14:44:45 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:14:45 +0530
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49DB5E55.2010107@freenet.de>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>	<49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>	<49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>	<49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org>	<49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>	<49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DB5E55.2010107@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <49DB66DD.7050406@fedoraproject.org>

Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Rahul Sundaram wrote:

>> Are you coming up with your own definition of non-free?
> "Free sources": Legal to copy, reuse and modify.

This is far from a comprehensive definition. In your next mail, you talk
about "artistic rights" which means you *are* differentiating data and
programs.  So I will ask you again, have you looked into the games
packages which already have similar content? Have you read the OFL or
Vera license? Do you see the similarity between what you object to
within the game data and the font license? For say jpeg, would you
insist on the SVG being available if that was the original source? What
about the "source" of fonts? You can take it to any extreme you want.

Rahul



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 14:44:55 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:14:55 +0530
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <a574299bb8f6a350f5773b67e6564dcd.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>
	<49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>	<49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>	<49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org>	<bc96aa410fc7c88c4aa1e9e3096c3fa1.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>	<49DB5E31.6040704@fedoraproject.org>
	<a574299bb8f6a350f5773b67e6564dcd.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <49DB66E7.60403@fedoraproject.org>

Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> 
> Le Mar 7 avril 2009 16:07, Rahul Sundaram a ?crit :
>> Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>>> So please do not drag Fedora fonts in your argument.
>> Why not? OFL has similar requirements about not selling it as
>> separately
>> as the game data requirements that Ralf objects to.
> 
> I don't think the level of separation is the same.
> 
> This license says "as part of a larger & possibly commercial software
> distribution (such as a Linux distribution or magazine coverdisk)"
> 
> This seems a much higher bar to meet to me. A linux distro or magazine
> coverdisk is usually hundreds of megs of other stuff if not more.

What is the legal requirement for a linux distro? A linux distro can be
just a few megs even. I am sure none of us can give a definitive answer.
Hence we trust the lawyers.

Rahul



From ajax at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 14:43:50 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 10:43:50 -0400
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>
	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Michal Hlavinka wrote:
> > And what about
> > 
> > RFE: Zap after warning ( https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494528 )
> > 
> > They've chosen this way in opensuse - first time you press c+a+bs it produces 
> > warning (bell) and second time it works as usual
> > 
> > And bonus: it uses less space than two new packages :o)
> 
> If and when the RFE's gets accepted, maybe. I wouldn't count on it.
> Meanwhile, x-kit is being used by a number of other programs and useful
> to have in the repository.  If you have x-kit, dontzap is just a small
> script. No big deal.

Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
Compose like a sensible person.

The dontzap script is the wrong solution.  Please stop suggesting it.

- ajax
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 14:53:36 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:23:36 +0530
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DB68F0.1080102@fedoraproject.org>

Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> Michal Hlavinka wrote:
>>> And what about
>>>
>>> RFE: Zap after warning ( https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494528 )
>>>
>>> They've chosen this way in opensuse - first time you press c+a+bs it produces 
>>> warning (bell) and second time it works as usual
>>>
>>> And bonus: it uses less space than two new packages :o)
>> If and when the RFE's gets accepted, maybe. I wouldn't count on it.
>> Meanwhile, x-kit is being used by a number of other programs and useful
>> to have in the repository.  If you have x-kit, dontzap is just a small
>> script. No big deal.
> 
> Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
> it's called pyxf86config.  

I am aware of that.

Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
> you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
> Compose like a sensible person.

Does that work currently?

The dontzap script is the wrong solution.  Please stop suggesting it.

Do you have a current working solution that allows the users to easily
revert the setting?

Rahul







From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net  Tue Apr  7 14:51:01 2009
From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:51:01 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <49DB66DD.7050406@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl> <49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>
	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl> <49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>
	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org> <49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>
	<49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org> <49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>
	<49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org> <49DB5E55.2010107@freenet.de>
	<49DB66DD.7050406@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <b3fe0c9356b8271efe11fd3bb67601e7.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>



Le Mar 7 avril 2009 16:44, Rahul Sundaram a ?crit :

> What about the "source" of fonts?

We do insist on using font "sources" whenever upstream declares it
does its editing against a non-final font format

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 15:01:37 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:31:37 +0530
Subject: Looking for reviews swaps
In-Reply-To: <b3fe0c9356b8271efe11fd3bb67601e7.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>
References: <49D8C2BE.10906@hhs.nl>
	<49D8E2A9.9060506@freenet.de>	<49D8EE4B.5010203@hhs.nl>
	<49D8F7ED.6000705@freenet.de>	<49DAB583.40900@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DACB9B.6050102@freenet.de>	<49DB418A.2030502@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DB5663.8010707@freenet.de>	<49DB5904.9080304@fedoraproject.org>
	<49DB5E55.2010107@freenet.de>	<49DB66DD.7050406@fedoraproject.org>
	<b3fe0c9356b8271efe11fd3bb67601e7.squirrel@arekh.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <49DB6AD1.7060607@fedoraproject.org>

Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> 
> Le Mar 7 avril 2009 16:44, Rahul Sundaram a ?crit :
> 
>> What about the "source" of fonts?
> 
> We do insist on using font "sources" whenever upstream declares it
> does its editing against a non-final font format

Yes but in many cases, the websites are in some language we don't
understand and very few authors declare the process of producing the
font and we just assume, there is no source equivalent and ship the font
as it is. If we start insisting on source on every occasion, the number
of fonts we can include is drastically lower today. We are always trying
to strike a balance in between our desire to include source and the
practical limitations of doing so. Earlier fonts were part of an
exception and we included proprietary fonts as well. We can keep pushing
that line over time but is not absurd to say, there is always going to
be some exceptions.

Rahul



From bmaly at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 15:55:10 2009
From: bmaly at redhat.com (Brian Maly)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 11:55:10 -0400
Subject: UEFI Compatibility Issues in Fedora 10
In-Reply-To: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE502D5947B@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
References: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE502D5947B@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
Message-ID: <49DB775E.20209@redhat.com>

jonathan barkelew wrote:
>
>
> The second issue is far more pressing, and much more difficult to 
> solve. The linux kernel will behave
> incorrectly if more than 400k of runtime memory is declared by system 
> firmware. The kernel attempts
> to map all UEFI runtime memory into the kernel fixmap table, and any 
> requests to map more than 400k
> are silently ignored. If this memory is accessed later in the boot 
> process (after transition to virtual
> mode), the kernel will panic. It is my understanding that this 
> mechanism was designed to enable kexec
> functionality, but this mechanism is UEFI non-compliant. If Fedora is 
> ever to be reliably booted on
> UEFI systems, this issue must be addressed.
>
I had gotten this fixed upstream, committed in the 2.6.29-rc8 kernel. 
efi_ioremap was broken. This should also be in the latest rawhide kernel.
Perhaps you can verify the problem is resolved? If it is not resolved, 
please let me know.
>
> I've briefly contacted the LKML, but after very little discussion the 
> issue was forgotten. I personally
> don't know how to solve the runtime boot problem while still enabling 
> kexec, but it was my hope
> that if the Fedora community were involved a solution might be found.
>
I had not tested the efi_ioremap fixes with kexec. I would appreciate 
testing feedback if you have any (test with kernel >= 2.6.29-rc8)

Brian

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From bmaly at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 16:00:27 2009
From: bmaly at redhat.com (Brian Maly)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 12:00:27 -0400
Subject: UEFI Compatibility Issues in Fedora 10
In-Reply-To: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE502D5947B@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
References: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE502D5947B@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
Message-ID: <49DB789B.5060107@redhat.com>

jonathan barkelew wrote:
>
>
> The second issue is far more pressing, and much more difficult to 
> solve. The linux kernel will behave
> incorrectly if more than 400k of runtime memory is declared by system 
> firmware. The kernel attempts
> to map all UEFI runtime memory into the kernel fixmap table, and any 
> requests to map more than 400k
> are silently ignored. If this memory is accessed later in the boot 
> process (after transition to virtual
> mode), the kernel will panic. It is my understanding that this 
> mechanism was designed to enable kexec
> functionality, but this mechanism is UEFI non-compliant. If Fedora is 
> ever to be reliably booted on
> UEFI systems, this issue must be addressed.
>
BTW, I can also forward you the patches for this if you need to use an 
older kernel for some reason. Let me know...

Brian

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From alsadi at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 16:07:13 2009
From: alsadi at gmail.com (Muayyad AlSadi)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 19:07:13 +0300
Subject: System Config Tools Cleanup Project - bugs
In-Reply-To: <1239093603.28937.4.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de>
References: <348116500.14311238763483644.JavaMail.root@zmail06.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<1239013093.22865.9.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com>
	<385866f0904060806r3d82180ewba995dc5d99c2ffb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239093603.28937.4.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de>
Message-ID: <385866f0904070907l640d6f99sbc1ddef2bd6be311@mail.gmail.com>

thanks, actually you did but I mised that post



From jonathanb at ami.com  Tue Apr  7 16:15:19 2009
From: jonathanb at ami.com (jonathan barkelew)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:15:19 -0400
Subject: UEFI Compatibility Issues in Fedora 10
In-Reply-To: <d5ad21470904070708m12de56f8m7c342b9fb1a51f84@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE502D5947B@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
	<d5ad21470904070708m12de56f8m7c342b9fb1a51f84@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE509420F35@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>

> It would be really good if you could participate:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-04-09_UEFI
> and report your findings

Then I will make it a point to participate.
Thanks.

- Jonathan



From jonathanb at ami.com  Tue Apr  7 16:17:35 2009
From: jonathanb at ami.com (jonathan barkelew)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:17:35 -0400
Subject: UEFI Compatibility Issues in Fedora 10
In-Reply-To: <49DB775E.20209@redhat.com>
References: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE502D5947B@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
	<49DB775E.20209@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE509420F36@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>

> I had gotten this fixed upstream, committed in the 2.6.29-rc8 kernel.
efi_ioremap was broken.
> This should also be in the latest rawhide kernel.

I will be testing the rawhide kernel this Thursday as part of the
testing day.
I'll let you know whether I still see the problem.

> I had not tested the efi_ioremap fixes with kexec. I would appreciate
testing feedback if you have any (test with kernel >= 2.6.29-rc8)

Honestly, I don't know what's involved in testing kexec, but I'll give
this a shot too on testing day.

If you could send your patches, that would be great. I'd like to see
what method you employed to fix it.

Thanks.
- Jonathan



From mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp  Tue Apr  7 16:41:24 2009
From: mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Mamoru Tasaka)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 01:41:24 +0900
Subject: Strange build failure on koji dist-f11
Message-ID: <49DB8234.9000509@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>

Hello, all:

Currently it seems that all builds on dist-f11 fails due to some
strange error:

Example:
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1283342
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1283286

root.log on i586 says:
--------------------------------------------------------
DEBUG util.py:280:  Executing command: ['rpm', '-Uvh', '--nodeps', '/builddir/build/originals/ccrtp-1.7.1-1.fc11.src.rpm']
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: Unterminated {: {_%{_keyringpath}/*.k
DEBUG util.py:256:    0< /
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: /: reading of public key failed.
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: cannot open Packages index using db3 - No such file or directory (2)
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: Unterminated {: {_%{_dbpat)
DEBUG util.py:256:    0< /
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: cannot open Packages database in /
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: Unterminated {: {_%{_topdiY"
DEBUG util.py:256:    0< /
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: Unterminated {: {_%{_sourcedi
DEBUG util.py:256:    0< /
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: Unterminated {: {_%{_specdi


DEBUG util.py:256:    0< /
DEBUG util.py:256:  ccrtp                       ##################################################
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: unpacking of archive failed on file /b/builddir/build/SOURCE/cccrtp-1.7.1.tar.gz??<?	;49db7c7d: cpio: mkdir failed - Invalid argument
--------------------------------------------------------

Would some investigate what is happening?

Regards,
Mamoru



From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 16:51:33 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:51:33 -0700
Subject: Strange build failure on koji dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <49DB8234.9000509@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
References: <49DB8234.9000509@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1239123093.3767.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 01:41 +0900, Mamoru Tasaka wrote:
> Hello, all:
> 
> Currently it seems that all builds on dist-f11 fails due to some
> strange error:

This is what I was seeing during rawhide production for the past few
days.  Oddly enough I didn't see it today.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From limb at jcomserv.net  Tue Apr  7 16:56:52 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 11:56:52 -0500
Subject: Strange build failure on koji dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1239123093.3767.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49DB8234.9000509@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<1239123093.3767.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49DB85D4.5070803@jcomserv.net>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 01:41 +0900, Mamoru Tasaka wrote:
>   
>> Hello, all:
>>
>> Currently it seems that all builds on dist-f11 fails due to some
>> strange error:
>>     
>
> This is what I was seeing during rawhide production for the past few
> days.  Oddly enough I didn't see it today.
>
>   
I've got it too.

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1283347&name=root.log

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From bmaly at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 17:24:11 2009
From: bmaly at redhat.com (Brian Maly)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 13:24:11 -0400
Subject: UEFI Compatibility Issues in Fedora 10
In-Reply-To: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE509420F36@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
References: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE502D5947B@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>	<49DB775E.20209@redhat.com>
	<9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE509420F36@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
Message-ID: <49DB8C3B.8030906@redhat.com>

jonathan barkelew wrote:
>> I had gotten this fixed upstream, committed in the 2.6.29-rc8 kernel.
>>     
> efi_ioremap was broken.
>   
>> This should also be in the latest rawhide kernel.
>>     
>
> I will be testing the rawhide kernel this Thursday as part of the
> testing day.
> I'll let you know whether I still see the problem.
>
>   
>> I had not tested the efi_ioremap fixes with kexec. I would appreciate
>>     
> testing feedback if you have any (test with kernel >= 2.6.29-rc8)
>
> Honestly, I don't know what's involved in testing kexec, but I'll give
> this a shot too on testing day.
>
> If you could send your patches, that would be great. I'd like to see
> what method you employed to fix it.
>
> Thanks.
> - Jonathan
>
>   

Here is the patch info. You will need both:

http://git.kernel.org/tip/dd39ecf522ba86c70809715af46e6557f6491131
http://git.kernel.org/tip/0fc59d3a01820765e5f3a723733728758b0cf577


Let me know if you still have questions/problems.

Brian
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr  7 17:45:12 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:45:12 +0200
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<gredbg$47r$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<8278b1b0904070417medc438dge25ebf0d58321f06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <grg3f9$7i0$1@ger.gmane.org>

King InuYasha wrote:
> Couldn't the patches [used to make the coLinux kernel possible] be forward
> ported to the latest 2.6.x kernel? As for the X11 issue, I did notice
> that. However it seems that he provides the latest versions of all of his
> patches (http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingCode/) even though the
> instructions on how to use them are kinda out of date (
> http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/cross.php). I think this is more
> or less the same situation with the Xchat Windows binaries, except this
> guy has more legal ground, especially with most of it being licensed
> either LGPL or X11.

There is no license in that directory, so I can only assume these terms:
http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/terms.php
to apply, in other words, this source and any binaries built from it are
non-redistributable.

        Kevin Kofler



From bpepple at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 18:32:04 2009
From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 14:32:04 -0400
Subject: Package Review Stats for the week ending April 5th, 2009
Message-ID: <1239129124.6824.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Top three FAS account holders who have completed reviewing "Package
review" components on bugzilla for the week ending April 5th, 2009
were Parag AN(????), Jon Ciesla, Mattias Ellert, and Nicolas Mailhot.
Below is the number of package reviews completed.

Parag AN(????) - 9
Jon Ciesla - 4
Mattias Ellert - 3
Nicolas Mailhot - 3
Jason Tibbitts - 2
Jussi Lehtola - 2
Mamoru Tasaka - 2
Alexander Kurtakov - 1
Christian Krause - 1
Conrad Meyer - 1
Dan Hor?k - 1
Daniel Kope?ek - 1
David Nalley - 1
Deji Akingunola - 1
Jaroslav Reznik - 1
Marcela Maslanova - 1
Orcan 'oget' Ogetbil - 1
Xavier Bachelot - 1

Merge Reviews: 5
Review Requests: 28
Total reviews modified: 36

Thanks,
/B
-- 
Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org>

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bpepple
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E
BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B  CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E
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From pmatilai at laiskiainen.org  Tue Apr  7 19:06:49 2009
From: pmatilai at laiskiainen.org (Panu Matilainen)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:06:49 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Strange build failure on koji dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <49DB85D4.5070803@jcomserv.net>
References: <49DB8234.9000509@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<1239123093.3767.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DB85D4.5070803@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904072153430.22978@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Jon Ciesla wrote:

> Jesse Keating wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 01:41 +0900, Mamoru Tasaka wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello, all:
>>> 
>>> Currently it seems that all builds on dist-f11 fails due to some
>>> strange error:
>>> 
>> 
>> This is what I was seeing during rawhide production for the past few
>> days.  Oddly enough I didn't see it today.
>>
>> 
> I've got it too.
>
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1283347&name=root.log

Yuck. But this is strange... I looked through mash logs earlier today and 
the first occurrence of this breakage was on April 1st (what a nice 
co-incidence) and always just on i586.

Something's obviously very broken, but previous rpm update had been about 
a week before that, seems unlikely to me that the same rpm version would 
work fine for a week and then all of a sudden start blowing up all over 
the place with memory corruption on i586.

Me wonders how come mash was affected by this already a week ago and koji 
only now.

 	- Panu -



From limb at jcomserv.net  Tue Apr  7 19:27:57 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 14:27:57 -0500
Subject: Strange build failure on koji dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904072153430.22978@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>
References: <49DB8234.9000509@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>	<1239123093.3767.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DB85D4.5070803@jcomserv.net>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904072153430.22978@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>
Message-ID: <49DBA93D.9000807@jcomserv.net>

Panu Matilainen wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>
>> Jesse Keating wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 01:41 +0900, Mamoru Tasaka wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello, all:
>>>>
>>>> Currently it seems that all builds on dist-f11 fails due to some
>>>> strange error:
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is what I was seeing during rawhide production for the past few
>>> days.  Oddly enough I didn't see it today.
>>>
>>>
>> I've got it too.
>>
>> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1283347&name=root.log
>
> Yuck. But this is strange... I looked through mash logs earlier today 
> and the first occurrence of this breakage was on April 1st (what a 
> nice co-incidence) and always just on i586.
>
> Something's obviously very broken, but previous rpm update had been 
> about a week before that, seems unlikely to me that the same rpm 
> version would work fine for a week and then all of a sudden start 
> blowing up all over the place with memory corruption on i586.
>
> Me wonders how come mash was affected by this already a week ago and 
> koji only now.
>
>     - Panu -
>
And now mine just built successfully.

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Tue Apr  7 19:37:46 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:37:46 +0100
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>

Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>   
>> Michal Hlavinka wrote:
>>     
>>> And what about
>>>
>>> RFE: Zap after warning ( https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494528 )
>>>
>>> They've chosen this way in opensuse - first time you press c+a+bs it produces 
>>> warning (bell) and second time it works as usual
>>>
>>> And bonus: it uses less space than two new packages :o)
>>>       
>> If and when the RFE's gets accepted, maybe. I wouldn't count on it.
>> Meanwhile, x-kit is being used by a number of other programs and useful
>> to have in the repository.  If you have x-kit, dontzap is just a small
>> script. No big deal.
>>     
>
> Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
> it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
> you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
> Compose like a sensible person.
>
> The dontzap script is the wrong solution.  Please stop suggesting it.
>
> - ajax
>   
well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the 
right solution?

phil



From ajax at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 19:46:59 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:46:59 -0400
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>
	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 20:37 +0100, psmith wrote:
> Adam Jackson wrote:
> > Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
> > it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
> > you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
> > Compose like a sensible person.
>
> well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the 
> right solution?

I said it.  Right there.  The bit about being a runtime XKB feature
already.

- ajax (an xorg dev)
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From dgboles at comcast.net  Tue Apr  7 19:58:09 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:58:09 -0400
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49DBB051.4080200@comcast.net>

On 4/7/2009 3:37 PM, psmith wrote:
> Adam Jackson wrote:
>> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

>>> Michal Hlavinka wrote:

>>>> And what about

>>>> RFE: Zap after warning (
>>>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494528 )

>>>> They've chosen this way in opensuse - first time you press c+a+bs it
>>>> produces warning (bell) and second time it works as usual

>>>> And bonus: it uses less space than two new packages :o)

>>> If and when the RFE's gets accepted, maybe. I wouldn't count on it.
>>> Meanwhile, x-kit is being used by a number of other programs and useful
>>> to have in the repository.  If you have x-kit, dontzap is just a small
>>> script. No big deal.


>> Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
>> it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
>> you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
>> Compose like a sensible person.

>> The dontzap script is the wrong solution.  Please stop suggesting it.

>> - ajax

> well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the
> right solution?


How about trying this? 'Put it back in yourself'.  ;-)

It looks like this.


Section "ServerFlags"
Option "DontZap" "false"
EndSection




-- 


  David

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From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Tue Apr  7 20:02:03 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 21:02:03 +0100
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>
	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DBB13B.6010704@googlemail.com>

Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 20:37 +0100, psmith wrote:
>   
>> Adam Jackson wrote:
>>     
>>> Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
>>> it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
>>> you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
>>> Compose like a sensible person.
>>>       
>> well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the 
>> right solution?
>>     
>
> I said it.  Right there.  The bit about being a runtime XKB feature
> already.
>
> - ajax (an xorg dev)
>   
and you think an average user will know how to do this compared to 
installing rahuls dontzap package, and maybe just maybe when the next 
big change comes around in xorg you could let the community know 
beforehand instead of thinking your godlike

phil - glad not to be an xorg dev  ;)



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Tue Apr  7 20:18:28 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 21:18:28 +0100
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DBB051.4080200@comcast.net>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>
	<49DBB051.4080200@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49DBB514.2030206@googlemail.com>

David wrote:
> On 4/7/2009 3:37 PM, psmith wrote:
>   
>> Adam Jackson wrote:
>>     
>>> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>>       
>
>   
>>>> Michal Hlavinka wrote:
>>>>         
>
>   
>>>>> And what about
>>>>>           
>
>   
>>>>> RFE: Zap after warning (
>>>>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494528 )
>>>>>           
>
>   
>>>>> They've chosen this way in opensuse - first time you press c+a+bs it
>>>>> produces warning (bell) and second time it works as usual
>>>>>           
>
>   
>>>>> And bonus: it uses less space than two new packages :o)
>>>>>           
>
>   
>>>> If and when the RFE's gets accepted, maybe. I wouldn't count on it.
>>>> Meanwhile, x-kit is being used by a number of other programs and useful
>>>> to have in the repository.  If you have x-kit, dontzap is just a small
>>>> script. No big deal.
>>>>         
>
>
>   
>>> Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
>>> it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
>>> you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
>>> Compose like a sensible person.
>>>       
>
>   
>>> The dontzap script is the wrong solution.  Please stop suggesting it.
>>>       
>
>   
>>> - ajax
>>>       
>
>   
>> well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the
>> right solution?
>>     
>
>
> How about trying this? 'Put it back in yourself'.  ;-)
>
> It looks like this.
>
>
> Section "ServerFlags"
> Option "DontZap" "false"
> EndSection
>
>
>
>
>   
and since were supposed to be moving away from using an xorg.conf all of 
us who want to be able to restart x (and believe me as good as those 
xorg devs think their code is it still happens quite regularly) without 
having to go to a virtual terminal etc have to regress to using one to 
keep people who want to make linux like windows or those emacs users who 
don't type to well happy.

phil



From paul at xelerance.com  Tue Apr  7 20:31:41 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:31:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>


My first fedora 11 beta run-in with not having dontzap set to false.

I have a dual twin setup. This already requires an xorg.conf file,
because in the no-config running, xorg decides you want to only use
one of the two screens it finds. I don't know why, I consider it a bug.

I configure it to have dual screen. When I login, my window manager dies
on me. My gnome panel only works in my left screen, but anything I
select pops up on the right screen, out of focus. I can move my mouse
into the other screen but I cannot get any focus. So I cannot get to a
terminal or any other application.

So I ctrl-alt-f2. Now my left monitor goes into standby mode and my
right monitor just shows a blinking cursor. The same for all VC's except
alt-f7 which brings me back to my broken X session.

I had to login via ssh to fix my machine, because I could not restart X.
Indeed, i did not have sysrq enabled yet, that's disabled per default it
seems.

+1 for reverting to the old behaviour of having ctrl-alt-backspace kill
the current X session.

Paul



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 20:44:14 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:44:14 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <grg3f9$7i0$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<gredbg$47r$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<8278b1b0904070417medc438dge25ebf0d58321f06@mail.gmail.com>
	<grg3f9$7i0$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904071344h6aa22ac8qb7ade0c977a703d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at>wrote:

> King InuYasha wrote:
> > Couldn't the patches [used to make the coLinux kernel possible] be
> forward
> > ported to the latest 2.6.x kernel? As for the X11 issue, I did notice
> > that. However it seems that he provides the latest versions of all of his
> > patches (http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingCode/) even though the
> > instructions on how to use them are kinda out of date (
> > http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/cross.php). I think this is
> more
> > or less the same situation with the Xchat Windows binaries, except this
> > guy has more legal ground, especially with most of it being licensed
> > either LGPL or X11.
>
> There is no license in that directory, so I can only assume these terms:
> http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/terms.php
> to apply, in other words, this source and any binaries built from it are
> non-redistributable.
>
>        Kevin Kofler
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

Wow, that sucks. So only the ancient 6.9.0 release is allowed
redistribution. The only other one I can think of is the Cygwin Xorg release
7.4, but I'm not sure how that would actually work without including the
entire Cygwin system.
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From sstarr at platform.com  Tue Apr  7 20:47:15 2009
From: sstarr at platform.com (Shawn Starr)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:47:15 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
Message-ID: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com
> [mailto:fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Paul Wouters
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 4:32 PM
> To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
> 
> 
> 
> My first fedora 11 beta run-in with not having dontzap set to false.
> 
> I have a dual twin setup. This already requires an xorg.conf file,
> because in the no-config running, xorg decides you want to only use
> one of the two screens it finds. I don't know why, I consider 
> it a bug.
> 
> I configure it to have dual screen. When I login, my window 
> manager dies
> on me. My gnome panel only works in my left screen, but anything I
> select pops up on the right screen, out of focus. I can move my mouse
> into the other screen but I cannot get any focus. So I cannot get to a
> terminal or any other application.
> 
> So I ctrl-alt-f2. Now my left monitor goes into standby mode and my
> right monitor just shows a blinking cursor. The same for all 
> VC's except
> alt-f7 which brings me back to my broken X session.
> 
> I had to login via ssh to fix my machine, because I could not 
> restart X.
> Indeed, i did not have sysrq enabled yet, that's disabled per 
> default it
> seems.
> 

You could have also rebooted and booted into runlevel 3 to edit xorg.conf :-)

Shawn.

> +1 for reverting to the old behaviour of having 
> ctrl-alt-backspace kill
> the current X session.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 



From dr.diesel at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 20:51:27 2009
From: dr.diesel at gmail.com (Dr. Diesel)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:51:27 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
Message-ID: <2a28d2ab0904071351l153f850em5d3af1f787f350fa@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Shawn Starr <sstarr at platform.com> wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com
> > [mailto:fedora-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Paul Wouters
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 4:32 PM
> > To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> > Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
> >
> >
> >
> > My first fedora 11 beta run-in with not having dontzap set to false.
> >
> > I have a dual twin setup. This already requires an xorg.conf file,
> > because in the no-config running, xorg decides you want to only use
> > one of the two screens it finds. I don't know why, I consider
> > it a bug.
> >
> > I configure it to have dual screen. When I login, my window
> > manager dies
> > on me. My gnome panel only works in my left screen, but anything I
> > select pops up on the right screen, out of focus. I can move my mouse
> > into the other screen but I cannot get any focus. So I cannot get to a
> > terminal or any other application.
> >
> > So I ctrl-alt-f2. Now my left monitor goes into standby mode and my
> > right monitor just shows a blinking cursor. The same for all
> > VC's except
> > alt-f7 which brings me back to my broken X session.
> >
> > I had to login via ssh to fix my machine, because I could not
> > restart X.
> > Indeed, i did not have sysrq enabled yet, that's disabled per
> > default it
> > seems.
> >
>
> You could have also rebooted and booted into runlevel 3 to edit xorg.conf
> :-)
>
> Shawn.
>

vi is probably next on the chopping block.  He should have just reinstalled,
since that is where we are headed :D



-- 
projecthuh.com
All of my bits are free, are yours?  Fedoraproject.org
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From mike at cchtml.com  Tue Apr  7 20:53:57 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:53:57 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
Message-ID: <49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
From: Shawn Starr <sstarr at platform.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/07/2009 03:47 PM

> 
> You could have also rebooted and booted into runlevel 3 to edit xorg.conf :-)
> 

A.K.A. "You could have also rebooted and booted into Safe Mode[1] to 
change your display settings."

What I don't understand is that X.org feels X should no longer need an 
xorg.conf file, yet here we are with a case that will require many to 
keep an xorg.conf file for the rest of time.

Also, why should I have to restart X to enable or disable this 
functionality? Shouldn't an authorized user be allowed to set the 
DontZap option at run time? Why am I having to write so many questions?

[1] Microsoft Windows (tm)



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 21:21:09 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:21:09 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>

Hey,
I found an open source Cg compiler on nvidia's website. Is it possible to
include it in Fedora, and if it was, is it any use?

http://developer.nvidia.com/object/cg_compiler_code.html
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From mike at cchtml.com  Tue Apr  7 21:39:30 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:39:30 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DBC812.4050803@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
From: King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/07/2009 04:21 PM

> Hey,
> 
> I found an open source Cg compiler on nvidia's website. Is it possible 
> to include it in Fedora, and if it was, is it any use?
> 


It is already part of Fedora.

# yum install Cg



From anders at trudheim.co.uk  Tue Apr  7 21:42:10 2009
From: anders at trudheim.co.uk (Anders Rayner-Karlsson)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 23:42:10 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>

* Michael Cronenworth <mike at cchtml.com> [20090407 22:54]:
> What I don't understand is that X.org feels X should no longer need an  
> xorg.conf file, yet here we are with a case that will require many to  
> keep an xorg.conf file for the rest of time.

Dual-head setup in F10 is as trivial as

$ xrandr --output LVDS --auto --output VGA --auto --above LVDS

for me. I don't need a xorg.conf for dual-head.

-- 
/Anders



From mike at cchtml.com  Tue Apr  7 21:48:33 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:48:33 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
Message-ID: <49DBCA31.5060305@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
From: Anders Rayner-Karlsson <anders at trudheim.co.uk>
To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
Date: 04/07/2009 04:42 PM

> 
> Dual-head setup in F10 is as trivial as
> 
> $ xrandr --output LVDS --auto --output VGA --auto --above LVDS
> 
> for me. I don't need a xorg.conf for dual-head.
> 

Sorry, I wasn't speaking of the OP's dual-head requirement. I was 
speaking of the "DontZap" option.

Besides, you would have to save that xrandr command in a startup script 
because that does not save your settings anywhere permanently such as 
xorg.conf.



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 22:07:39 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 03:37:39 +0530
Subject: Review Request: Gnote 
Message-ID: <49DBCEAB.8010804@fedoraproject.org>

Hi

I have just submitted a review request for Gnote, a port of Tomboy to
C++. If anyone wants to do a quick review, help is welcome. I can swap a
review for something similar as well.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494726

Rahul



From ajax at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 22:06:42 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:06:42 -0400
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DBB13B.6010704@googlemail.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>
	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>
	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<49DBB13B.6010704@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <1239142002.12485.12.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 21:02 +0100, psmith wrote:
> Adam Jackson wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 20:37 +0100, psmith wrote:
> >> Adam Jackson wrote:
> >>> Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
> >>> it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
> >>> you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
> >>> Compose like a sensible person.
> >>>       
> >> well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the 
> >> right solution?
> >>
> >
> > I said it.  Right there.  The bit about being a runtime XKB feature
> > already.
> >
> and you think an average user will know how to do this compared to 
> installing rahuls dontzap package, and maybe just maybe when the next 
> big change comes around in xorg you could let the community know 
> beforehand instead of thinking your godlike

My godlike what?

All the other runtime XKB features are pretty well discoverable.
gnome-keyboard-properties, layouts, layout options.

- ajax
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From ajax at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 22:09:30 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:09:30 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <1239142170.12485.15.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 15:53 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote:

> What I don't understand is that X.org feels X should no longer need an 
> xorg.conf file, yet here we are with a case that will require many to 
> keep an xorg.conf file for the rest of time.

Where does this myth keep coming from?  Why do people keep repeating it?

xorg.conf is the config file.  If you need it, you need it.  You
shouldn't _need_ to need it most of the time, but that's a statement
about X's ability to automatically configure something reasonable at
startup and be dynamically configurable at runtime.

xorg.conf is not deprecated.

- ajax
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From paul at xelerance.com  Tue Apr  7 22:09:38 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:09:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, King InuYasha wrote:

> Hey,
> I found an open source Cg compiler on nvidia's website. Is it possible to include it in Fedora, and if
> it was, is it any use?
> 
> http://developer.nvidia.com/object/cg_compiler_code.html

It's in rpmfusion in the nonfree repository, so I take it there is some
issue why it cannot be included in Fedora.

[paul at bofh]$ rpm -qi Cg
Name        : Cg                           Relocations: (not relocatable)
Version     : 2.1.0017                          Vendor: RPM Fusion
Release     : 1.fc11                        Build Date: Fri 27 Mar 2009 02:44:11 PM EDT
Install Date: Tue 07 Apr 2009 03:22:11 PM EDT      Build Host: plague.lisas.de
Group       : Development/Languages         Source RPM: Cg-2.1.0017-1.fc11.src.rpm
Size        : 7804930                          License: Redistributable, no modification permitted
Signature   : RSA/8, Fri 03 Apr 2009 12:59:53 PM EDT, Key ID 4d2a1bdc8dc43844
Packager    : <http://nonfree.rpmfusion.org/>
URL         : http://developer.nvidia.com/object/cg_toolkit.html
Summary     : NVIDIA Cg Toolkit
Description :
The Cg Toolkit provides a compiler for the Cg language, runtime
libraries for use with both leading graphics APIs, runtime libraries for
CgFX, example applications, and extensive documentation. Supporting over
20 different OpenGL and DirectX profile targets, Cg will allow you to
incorporate stunning interactive effects into your 3D applications.

This is the February2009 release



From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 22:10:01 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:10:01 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DBCA31.5060305@cchtml.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49DBCA31.5060305@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <1239142201.3767.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:48 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> Besides, you would have to save that xrandr command in a startup script 
> because that does not save your settings anywhere permanently such as 
> xorg.conf.

If you use the System -> Preferences -> Display tool to set up your dual
head mode, every time you log in and those monitors are present your
settings will be used at log in time, no need to save it to an xorg
file.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From ajax at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 22:13:50 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:13:50 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239142201.3767.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49DBCA31.5060305@cchtml.com>
	<1239142201.3767.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239142430.12485.17.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 15:10 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:48 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> > Besides, you would have to save that xrandr command in a startup script 
> > because that does not save your settings anywhere permanently such as 
> > xorg.conf.
> 
> If you use the System -> Preferences -> Display tool to set up your dual
> head mode, every time you log in and those monitors are present your
> settings will be used at log in time, no need to save it to an xorg
> file.

Technically this is true only for displays that export RANDR 1.2 or
better.  I do not know whether that's true for nvidia's driver yet.

- ajax 
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From drago01 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 22:14:34 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 00:14:34 +0200
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904071514p6bb939e2ta77e4bf2083514cb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Paul Wouters <paul at xelerance.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, King InuYasha wrote:
>?License: Redistributable, no  modification permitted

That's wrong at least for the current version (looks like ISC/BSD/MIT to me)



From patycons at yahoo.com.mx  Tue Apr  7 22:15:42 2009
From: patycons at yahoo.com.mx (Paty Constantino)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:15:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: A program in Python to get Source RPM's from cvs
Message-ID: <505991.17589.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hi everyone,

I'm doing a program in Python, which for now is taking an application name and gives you the corresponding source rpm, if you run the program the first thing that will appear is this:

------------------------------  Corresponding Source Web App  -----------------------------------------

This program is providing a source rpm package for a given name application requested by the user.
The format for the user request, must be as follows:

[Package Name][-Version][-Release][.Fedora Version] - e.g.  gimp-2.6.4-3.fc10

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enter the name for application: _

In this part, the program wait for you to write a app name, you can type for example:  tomboy-0.10.1-2.fc9.i386

And after that the program will download that program from cvs, make the source rpm and create an ISO image from that.  It will display at the end a message like this:

Done!, Iso Image is in:  /tmp/tmp7qZ_Ly

I'm not planning leave the Iso image in a temporary directory, is just temporary (while I decide a better way to show where is it to the user).

Right now doesn't make to much sense to make an ISO image with just one single srpm, but in the future I want my program retrieve the source code from a list of programs, so then, the iso image will content more than one srpm, and the user will be able to burn/storage one single file instead of a bunch of files.

For take a look to my code, please go to this link: http://matrix.senecac.on.ca/~pconstantino/sharedstuff/Project/Project_8

Give me any suggestion, all are welcome.

PatCons



      ?Obt?n la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=mx
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From paul at xelerance.com  Tue Apr  7 22:16:38 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:16:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239142201.3767.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49DBCA31.5060305@cchtml.com>
	<1239142201.3767.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071812430.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Jesse Keating wrote:

> If you use the System -> Preferences -> Display tool to set up your dual
> head mode, every time you log in and those monitors are present your
> settings will be used at log in time, no need to save it to an xorg
> file.

Display tool would only list one monitor.

The window manager problems seem to be related to "desktop effects" being
set but failing when I added a video card. Manually starting metacity in
a new X session before losing focus on my terminal , and then going through
the menus to disable desktop effects seemed to work.

Now the only problem is that most apps only startup in Screen0, and I cannot
drag anything from Screen0 to Screen1.

Paul



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 22:16:47 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:16:47 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Paul Wouters <paul at xelerance.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, King InuYasha wrote:
>
>  Hey,
>> I found an open source Cg compiler on nvidia's website. Is it possible to
>> include it in Fedora, and if
>> it was, is it any use?
>>
>> http://developer.nvidia.com/object/cg_compiler_code.html
>>
>
> It's in rpmfusion in the nonfree repository, so I take it there is some
> issue why it cannot be included in Fedora.
>
> [paul at bofh]$ rpm -qi Cg
> Name        : Cg                           Relocations: (not relocatable)
> Version     : 2.1.0017                          Vendor: RPM Fusion
> Release     : 1.fc11                        Build Date: Fri 27 Mar 2009
> 02:44:11 PM EDT
> Install Date: Tue 07 Apr 2009 03:22:11 PM EDT      Build Host:
> plague.lisas.de
> Group       : Development/Languages         Source RPM:
> Cg-2.1.0017-1.fc11.src.rpm
> Size        : 7804930                          License: Redistributable, no
> modification permitted
> Signature   : RSA/8, Fri 03 Apr 2009 12:59:53 PM EDT, Key ID
> 4d2a1bdc8dc43844
> Packager    : <http://nonfree.rpmfusion.org/>
> URL         : http://developer.nvidia.com/object/cg_toolkit.html
> Summary     : NVIDIA Cg Toolkit
> Description :
> The Cg Toolkit provides a compiler for the Cg language, runtime
> libraries for use with both leading graphics APIs, runtime libraries for
> CgFX, example applications, and extensive documentation. Supporting over
> 20 different OpenGL and DirectX profile targets, Cg will allow you to
> incorporate stunning interactive effects into your 3D applications.
>
> This is the February2009 release
>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>


That is the toolkit, not the compiler. The compiler has a different license
than the toolkit.
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From paul at xelerance.com  Tue Apr  7 22:18:27 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:18:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A program in Python to get Source RPM's from cvs
In-Reply-To: <505991.17589.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <505991.17589.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071817440.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Paty Constantino wrote:

> I'm doing a program in Python, which for now is taking an application name and gives you the
> corresponding source rpm, if you run the program the first thing that will appear is this:
> 
> ------------------------------? Corresponding Source Web App?
> -----------------------------------------
> 
> This program is providing a source rpm package for a given name application requested by the user.
> The format for the user request, must be as follows:
> 
> [Package Name][-Version][-Release][.Fedora Version] - e.g.? gimp-2.6.4-3.fc10


You don't know about yumdownloader --source ?

Paul



From paul at xelerance.com  Tue Apr  7 22:28:05 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:28:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071826310.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, King InuYasha wrote:

>       http://developer.nvidia.com/object/cg_compiler_code.html

I am not sure about the "personal license" being free enough....

> That is the toolkit, not the compiler. The compiler has a different license than the toolkit.

Though I can package it up since I am planning on doing some CUDA stuff.
Though a quick test revealed it did not compile for me out of the box.

Paul



From tibbs at math.uh.edu  Tue Apr  7 22:30:12 2009
From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:30:12 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <49DBC812.4050803@cchtml.com> (Michael Cronenworth's message of
	"Tue\, 07 Apr 2009 16\:39\:30 -0500")
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DBC812.4050803@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <ufa8wmc6qrv.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>

>>>>> "MC" == Michael Cronenworth <mike at cchtml.com> writes:

MC> It is already part of Fedora.
MC> # yum install Cg

That is not the case.  There is no such package in Fedora.  I suspect
you have the rpmfusion-nonfree repo enabled.

 - J<



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr  7 22:30:57 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 00:30:57 +0200
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <grgk73$3u2$1@ger.gmane.org>

King InuYasha wrote:
> I found an open source Cg compiler on nvidia's website. Is it possible to
> include it in Fedora, and if it was, is it any use?
> 
> http://developer.nvidia.com/object/cg_compiler_code.html

As that page says:
> This release provides the source code for the Cg compiler (cgc.exe) with
> a "generic" profile, which does some minimal semantic checks and prints
> out a tree representation of the code.

In other words, this does not do anything useful, it's just the compiler
frontend with no code generation whatsoever.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr  7 22:34:49 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 00:34:49 +0200
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <grgke9$3u2$2@ger.gmane.org>

King InuYasha wrote:
> That is the toolkit, not the compiler. The compiler has a different
> license than the toolkit.

But the compiler on its own is completely useless without the rest of the
toolkit, in particular the "profiles" which make the compiler actually
generate code.

        Kevin Kofler



From dgboles at comcast.net  Tue Apr  7 22:43:13 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:43:13 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>

On 4/7/2009 4:31 PM, Paul Wouters wrote:

> My first fedora 11 beta run-in with not having dontzap set to false.

> I have a dual twin setup. This already requires an xorg.conf file,
> because in the no-config running, xorg decides you want to only use
> one of the two screens it finds. I don't know why, I consider it a bug.

> I configure it to have dual screen. When I login, my window manager dies
> on me. My gnome panel only works in my left screen, but anything I
> select pops up on the right screen, out of focus. I can move my mouse
> into the other screen but I cannot get any focus. So I cannot get to a
> terminal or any other application.

> So I ctrl-alt-f2. Now my left monitor goes into standby mode and my
> right monitor just shows a blinking cursor. The same for all VC's except
> alt-f7 which brings me back to my broken X session.

> I had to login via ssh to fix my machine, because I could not restart X.
> Indeed, i did not have sysrq enabled yet, that's disabled per default it
> seems.

> +1 for reverting to the old behaviour of having ctrl-alt-backspace kill
> the current X session.


Sorry Paul. But it does not look like, from what I read here, that there
will be a vote on this. It appears that you, and all others, have two options.

1: Live with it as default 'off'.

2: Change it to 'on' to suit yourself.

Great thing about Linux. You can do pretty much just as you wish.

Good luck.


-- 


  David



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 22:45:04 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:45:04 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <grgke9$3u2$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>
	<grgke9$3u2$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904071545k1b53c291p716530999a8aeedc@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> wrote:

> King InuYasha wrote:
> > That is the toolkit, not the compiler. The compiler has a different
> > license than the toolkit.
>
> But the compiler on its own is completely useless without the rest of the
> toolkit, in particular the "profiles" which make the compiler actually
> generate code.
>
>        Kevin Kofler
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

True, but if there are people interested in it, perhaps some "profiles"
could be made for use with cgc and packaged rather than relying on the
toolkit since I doubt nVIDIA would release the profiles as open source. It
does already contain a generic profile but without any code generation. My
other guess is that this could be used to figure out how to implement a Cg
compiler front end into LLVM. But, what do I know? I have no real knowledge
of programming.
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From vpivaini at cs.helsinki.fi  Tue Apr  7 22:50:17 2009
From: vpivaini at cs.helsinki.fi (Ville-Pekka Vainio)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 01:50:17 +0300
Subject: Heads up: new Voikko spell checking packages in Rawhide soon
In-Reply-To: <1238971607.7990.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238971607.7990.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239144617.3044.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

These packages have now been built for Rawhide/F11. The corresponding
chainbuild task is at [1].

[1] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1283846


-- 
Ville-Pekka Vainio



From pemboa at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 22:52:28 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:52:28 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904071552r4ac857dav941866533ca0a50c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:43 PM, David <dgboles at comcast.net> wrote:
> On 4/7/2009 4:31 PM, Paul Wouters wrote:
>
>> My first fedora 11 beta run-in with not having dontzap set to false.
>
>> I have a dual twin setup. This already requires an xorg.conf file,
>> because in the no-config running, xorg decides you want to only use
>> one of the two screens it finds. I don't know why, I consider it a bug.
>
>> I configure it to have dual screen. When I login, my window manager dies
>> on me. My gnome panel only works in my left screen, but anything I
>> select pops up on the right screen, out of focus. I can move my mouse
>> into the other screen but I cannot get any focus. So I cannot get to a
>> terminal or any other application.
>
>> So I ctrl-alt-f2. Now my left monitor goes into standby mode and my
>> right monitor just shows a blinking cursor. The same for all VC's except
>> alt-f7 which brings me back to my broken X session.
>
>> I had to login via ssh to fix my machine, because I could not restart X.
>> Indeed, i did not have sysrq enabled yet, that's disabled per default it
>> seems.
>
>> +1 for reverting to the old behaviour of having ctrl-alt-backspace kill
>> the current X session.
>
>
> Sorry Paul. But it does not look like, from what I read here, that there
> will be a vote on this. It appears that you, and all others, have two options.

Indeed. It's pretty clear that any argument to change this new default
is doomed to failure. This thread is purely noise at this point.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From dgboles at comcast.net  Tue Apr  7 22:53:06 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:53:06 -0400
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DBD77E.8010604@comcast.net>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>	<49DBB051.4080200@comcast.net>
	<49DBB514.2030206@googlemail.com> <49DBD77E.8010604@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49DBD952.3030909@comcast.net>

On 4/7/2009 6:48 PM, David wrote:
> On 4/7/2009 4:18 PM, psmith wrote:
>> David wrote:
>>> On 4/7/2009 3:37 PM, psmith wrote:

>>>> Adam Jackson wrote:

>>>>> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:



>>>>>> Michal Hlavinka wrote:



>>>>>>> And what about



>>>>>>> RFE: Zap after warning (
>>>>>>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494528 )



>>>>>>> They've chosen this way in opensuse - first time you press c+a+bs it
>>>>>>> produces warning (bell) and second time it works as usual



>>>>>>> And bonus: it uses less space than two new packages :o)



>>>>>> If and when the RFE's gets accepted, maybe. I wouldn't count on it.
>>>>>> Meanwhile, x-kit is being used by a number of other programs and
>>>>>> useful
>>>>>> to have in the repository.  If you have x-kit, dontzap is just a small
>>>>>> script. No big deal.




>>>>> Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
>>>>> it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
>>>>> you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
>>>>> Compose like a sensible person.



>>>>> The dontzap script is the wrong solution.  Please stop suggesting it.



>>>>> - ajax



>>>> well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the
>>>> right solution?



>>> How about trying this? 'Put it back in yourself'.  ;-)

>>> It looks like this.


>>> Section "ServerFlags"
>>> Option "DontZap" "false"
>>> EndSection





>> and since were supposed to be moving away from using an xorg.conf all of
>> us who want to be able to restart x (and believe me as good as those
>> xorg devs think their code is it still happens quite regularly) without
>> having to go to a virtual terminal etc have to regress to using one to
>> keep people who want to make linux like windows or those emacs users who
>> don't type to well happy.



Then I guess that you will have to compile your own Xorg with the switch
turned on?  :-)


Seriously. From what I read 'they' are trying to make Xorg better able to
handle common things without a conf file. But Xorg still does use a conf
file if it is exists. In other words? The dontzap that you set stays. As
well as the nonfree drivers that some use and need the conf file.

Relax man. You'll live longer.  8-)
-- 


  David



From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 22:58:15 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:58:15 -0700
Subject: A program in Python to get Source RPM's from cvs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071817440.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
References: <505991.17589.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071817440.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <1239145095.3767.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 18:18 -0400, Paul Wouters wrote:
> You don't know about yumdownloader --source ?

I think this is to be useful for when the sourcerpms of a given package
are no longer made available in the source repos.  EG srpms of older
updates, or an older release that has been retired.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 22:59:46 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:59:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A program in Python to get Source RPM's from cvs
In-Reply-To: <505991.17589.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <505991.17589.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904071858200.14421@localhost.localdomain>



On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Paty Constantino wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm doing a program in Python, which for now is taking an application name and gives you the corresponding source rpm, if
> you run the program the first thing that will appear is this:
>

Here's the equivalent using the yum modules:

import yum
import rpmUtils.miscutils

my = yum.YumBase()
my.conf.cache = 1
p = my.pkgSack.searchNevra(name='yum')[0]
print rpmUtils.miscutils.splitFilename(p.sourcerpm)

that should give you a tuple of name, ver, release, arch


also see yumdownloader --source

-sv



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr  7 23:01:32 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 19:01:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A program in Python to get Source RPM's from cvs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904071858200.14421@localhost.localdomain>
References: <505991.17589.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904071858200.14421@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904071900380.14421@localhost.localdomain>



On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Seth Vidal wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Paty Constantino wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>> 
>> I'm doing a program in Python, which for now is taking an application name 
>> and gives you the corresponding source rpm, if
>> you run the program the first thing that will appear is this:
>> 
>
> Here's the equivalent using the yum modules:
>
> import yum
> import rpmUtils.miscutils
>
> my = yum.YumBase()
> my.conf.cache = 1
> p = my.pkgSack.searchNevra(name='yum')[0]
> print rpmUtils.miscutils.splitFilename(p.sourcerpm)
>
> that should give you a tuple of name, ver, release, arch
>
>
> also see yumdownloader --source
>


one more thing - if you're going to be accessing the rpmdb and/or opening 
up local pkgs - you might consider using the yum python interface to do 
that as yum handles a lot of cases you'll eventually run into in 
rpm-python.

-sv



From mike at miketc.net  Tue Apr  7 23:30:13 2009
From: mike at miketc.net (Mike Chambers)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:30:13 -0500
Subject: yum downloading packages change
Message-ID: <1239147013.21684.6.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>

Somewhere between the alpha and beta releases (not sure when though), it
seems yum changed on what it did/showed when downloading packages.  And
what I mean, is that my updates (rawhide + 3rd party repos) are locally
mirrored and nfs mounted.  And when yum got to the download part, it
started/ended in half a second or so, with just a line drawn showing it
and how fast and was over just like that.

Now it seems, that it shows each package being downloaded (as in I guess
it's copying over the package from wherever to local dir (a cached temp
dir or something?)) and then installing?  Even if that is what is going
on, it still seems like a much longer process then before.

Just seeing what is going on or reporting a problem if it is? Hope I am
explaining that correctly LOL

-- 
Mike Chambers
Madisonville, KY

Fedora Project - Bugzapper, Tester, User, etc..
miketc302 at fedoraproject.org



From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr  7 23:36:35 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:36:35 -0700
Subject: yum downloading packages change
In-Reply-To: <1239147013.21684.6.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
References: <1239147013.21684.6.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
Message-ID: <1239147395.3767.29.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 18:30 -0500, Mike Chambers wrote:
> Now it seems, that it shows each package being downloaded (as in I guess
> it's copying over the package from wherever to local dir (a cached temp
> dir or something?)) and then installing?  Even if that is what is going
> on, it still seems like a much longer process then before.
> 
> Just seeing what is going on or reporting a problem if it is? Hope I am
> explaining that correctly LOL

The behavior change was an attempt to fix a different bug.  This change
is being reverted and a different attempt is being made at fixing the
original bug.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From mike at miketc.net  Tue Apr  7 23:44:03 2009
From: mike at miketc.net (Mike Chambers)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:44:03 -0500
Subject: yum downloading packages change
In-Reply-To: <1239147395.3767.29.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239147013.21684.6.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
	<1239147395.3767.29.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239147843.21684.7.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:36 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 18:30 -0500, Mike Chambers wrote:
> > Now it seems, that it shows each package being downloaded (as in I guess
> > it's copying over the package from wherever to local dir (a cached temp
> > dir or something?)) and then installing?  Even if that is what is going
> > on, it still seems like a much longer process then before.
> > 
> > Just seeing what is going on or reporting a problem if it is? Hope I am
> > explaining that correctly LOL
> 
> The behavior change was an attempt to fix a different bug.  This change
> is being reverted and a different attempt is being made at fixing the
> original bug.

And I see the change has already taken place, as of right now am doing
an update and notice it's back to how it was (or close anyway).

LOL guess if I had done and update before that email I would had
answered my own question.

Thanks Jesse.

-- 
Mike Chambers
Madisonville, KY

Fedora Project - Bugzapper, Tester, User, etc..
miketc302 at fedoraproject.org



From mike at cchtml.com  Tue Apr  7 23:46:54 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:46:54 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <ufa8wmc6qrv.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>	<49DBC812.4050803@cchtml.com>
	<ufa8wmc6qrv.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <49DBE5EE.1080900@cchtml.com>

Jason L Tibbitts III wrote:
> That is not the case.  There is no such package in Fedora.  I suspect
> you have the rpmfusion-nonfree repo enabled

Yes, my bad. I forgot it was part of rpmfusion.



From mike at cchtml.com  Tue Apr  7 23:48:10 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:48:10 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239142170.12485.15.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<1239142170.12485.15.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DBE63A.5030209@cchtml.com>

Adam Jackson wrote:
>
> Where does this myth keep coming from?  Why do people keep repeating it?
>   

My bad. You won't hear it anymore from me.



From arequipeno at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 23:53:33 2009
From: arequipeno at gmail.com (Ian Pilcher)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:53:33 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
Message-ID: <grgp1u$fb2$1@ger.gmane.org>

Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
>> Dual-head setup in F10 is as trivial as
> 
> $ xrandr --output LVDS --auto --output VGA --auto --above LVDS
> 

Try putting your displays side-by-side sometime.  You'll likely need an
xorg.conf to specify a sufficiently wide virtual desktop.

-- 
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher                                         arequipeno at gmail.com
========================================================================



From arequipeno at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 23:55:17 2009
From: arequipeno at gmail.com (Ian Pilcher)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:55:17 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239142170.12485.15.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<1239142170.12485.15.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <grgp55$fb2$2@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Jackson wrote:
> Where does this myth keep coming from?  Why do people keep repeating it?

I suspect the fact that system-config-display is no longer installed by
default has a lot to do with it.

-- 
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher                                         arequipeno at gmail.com
========================================================================



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr  8 03:22:15 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 23:22:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: yum downloading packages change
In-Reply-To: <1239147843.21684.7.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
References: <1239147013.21684.6.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
	<1239147395.3767.29.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239147843.21684.7.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904072321570.14421@localhost.localdomain>



On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Mike Chambers wrote:

> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:36 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 18:30 -0500, Mike Chambers wrote:
>>> Now it seems, that it shows each package being downloaded (as in I guess
>>> it's copying over the package from wherever to local dir (a cached temp
>>> dir or something?)) and then installing?  Even if that is what is going
>>> on, it still seems like a much longer process then before.
>>>
>>> Just seeing what is going on or reporting a problem if it is? Hope I am
>>> explaining that correctly LOL
>>
>> The behavior change was an attempt to fix a different bug.  This change
>> is being reverted and a different attempt is being made at fixing the
>> original bug.
>
> And I see the change has already taken place, as of right now am doing
> an update and notice it's back to how it was (or close anyway).
>
> LOL guess if I had done and update before that email I would had
> answered my own question.

If you're using yum from absolutely latest koji (as of today) then yes, 
it's been reverted.
-sv



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr  8 05:29:59 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 00:29:59 -0500
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>
	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>
	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 15:46 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 20:37 +0100, psmith wrote:
> > Adam Jackson wrote:
> > > Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
> > > it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
> > > you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
> > > Compose like a sensible person.
> >
> > well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the 
> > right solution?
> 
> I said it.  Right there.  The bit about being a runtime XKB feature
> already.

Even though the time I most likely want ctl-alt-bs is BEFORE any login,
and quite possibly before GDM has even run, because the video driver is
b0rked?

Hey I have a genius idea. ENABLE ctl-alt-bs by default, and DISABLE it
as part of the user login process. Are we expecting people to be using
Emacs at the GDM login screen?
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr  8 05:40:15 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:10:15 +0530
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49DC38BF.5080003@fedoraproject.org>

Callum Lerwick wrote:

> Hey I have a genius idea. ENABLE ctl-alt-bs by default, and DISABLE it
> as part of the user login process. Are we expecting people to be using
> Emacs at the GDM login screen?

Please stop rehashing the same old discussions in this thread as well.
No need for the emacs conspiracy theory all over again.

http://www.fooishbar.org/blog/tech/x/ctrl-alt-backspace-2009-04-04-00-37.html


Rahul



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 05:38:55 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 01:38:55 -0400
Subject: dontzap - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>
	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>
	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <e76492710904072238s63cc7b1byd4168ce9e68b67b6@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:29 AM, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 15:46 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
>> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 20:37 +0100, psmith wrote:
>> > Adam Jackson wrote:
>> > > Please. ?Stop talking about xkit. ?We have a library for this already,
>> > > it's called pyxf86config. ?Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
>> > > you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
>> > > Compose like a sensible person.
>> >
>> > well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the
>> > right solution?
>>
>> I said it. ?Right there. ?The bit about being a runtime XKB feature
>> already.
>
> Even though the time I most likely want ctl-alt-bs is BEFORE any login,
> and quite possibly before GDM has even run, because the video driver is
> b0rked?
>
> Hey I have a genius idea. ENABLE ctl-alt-bs by default, and DISABLE it
> as part of the user login process. Are we expecting people to be using
> Emacs at the GDM login screen?
>

You sound desperate. I believe that it is best to save your energy for
fighting with xorg people. While I find disabling c-a-b utterly
stupid, I do not think this is the place that I should try to convince
people.

Orcan, the "proud emacs user"



From caillon at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 06:30:37 2009
From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 23:30:37 -0700
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DBB514.2030206@googlemail.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>	<49DBB051.4080200@comcast.net>
	<49DBB514.2030206@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49DC448D.9010205@redhat.com>

On 04/07/2009 01:18 PM, psmith wrote:
> David wrote:
>> Section "ServerFlags"
>> Option "DontZap" "false"
>> EndSection
>>
>>
> and since were supposed to be moving away from using an xorg.conf all of
> us who want to be able to restart x (and believe me as good as those
> xorg devs think their code is it still happens quite regularly) without
> having to go to a virtual terminal etc have to regress to using one to
> keep people who want to make linux like windows or those emacs users who
> don't type to well happy.

So, an alternate suggestion is just don't upgrade to F11.  I do not 
recommend that personally, but the new behavior is only in F11+ so if 
you don't upgrade, Ctrl+Alt+Backspace will continue to work.

Or, if you decide to upgrade, just use a kickstart file when you do. 
You've established you're going to be using anaconda to upgrade since in 
order to do a yum upgrade, you'd have to edit a few .repo files, and 
you've made it clear that you won't be editing files.

I already posted earlier in this thread[1] what the kickstart file has 
to look like.  It's now also on fpaste[2].  Simply point anaconda to it 
by appending ks=[2] to the boot line, and then you will have an 
xorg.conf containing the needed lines to maintain Ctrl+Alt+Backspace.

No vts required.

[1] 
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-March/msg02161.html
[2] http://fpaste.org/paste/8338/plain



From tomek at pipebreaker.pl  Wed Apr  8 06:37:29 2009
From: tomek at pipebreaker.pl (Tomasz Torcz)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:37:29 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <grgp1u$fb2$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<grgp1u$fb2$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090408063728.GA5038@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>

On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 06:53:33PM -0500, Ian Pilcher wrote:
> Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
> >> Dual-head setup in F10 is as trivial as
> > 
> > $ xrandr --output LVDS --auto --output VGA --auto --above LVDS
> > 
> 
> Try putting your displays side-by-side sometime.  You'll likely need an
> xorg.conf to specify a sufficiently wide virtual desktop.

  If, by any chance, you are using Intel driver, this is no longer true.
Intel driver in F11 has fb-resizing and specifing Virtual is no longer
necessary.


-- 
Tomasz Torcz               RIP is irrevelant. Spoofing is futile.
xmpp: zdzichubg at chrome.pl     Your routes will be aggreggated. -- Alex Yuriev



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr  8 06:39:23 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:39:23 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>

David wrote:
> Sorry Paul. But it does not look like, from what I read here, that there
> will be a vote on this.

And that's exactly what we're complaining about.

It looks very clear to me that the majority either wants Ctrl+Alt+BkSp
enabled by default or doesn't care either way. Only very few people have
ever accidentally triggered it.

        Kevin Kofler



From sanjay.ankur at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 06:55:01 2009
From: sanjay.ankur at gmail.com (Ankur Sinha)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 12:25:01 +0530
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>  <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 08:39 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> David wrote:
> > Sorry Paul. But it does not look like, from what I read here, that there
> > will be a vote on this.
> 
> And that's exactly what we're complaining about.
> 
> It looks very clear to me that the majority either wants Ctrl+Alt+BkSp
> enabled by default or doesn't care either way. Only very few people have
> ever accidentally triggered it.
> 
>         Kevin Kofler
> 

+1

I haven't ever triggered it "accidently" till date. 

regards,

Ankur



From jreznik at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 07:08:00 2009
From: jreznik at redhat.com (Jaroslav Reznik)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:08:00 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904080908.00673.jreznik@redhat.com>

On Wednesday 08 April 2009 08:39:23 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> David wrote:
> > Sorry Paul. But it does not look like, from what I read here, that there
> > will be a vote on this.
>
> And that's exactly what we're complaining about.
>
> It looks very clear to me that the majority either wants Ctrl+Alt+BkSp
> enabled by default or doesn't care either way. Only very few people have
> ever accidentally triggered it.

Indeed! Or MiHl proposed #494528 -  RFE: Zap after warning same way as 
OpenSuse do it - one warning then action.

I can understand this behavior once drivers become rock solid, no lockups, no 
freezes, no hangs but their state these days is horrible... I understand why - 
not easy to access docs, few people who actually understand it and even fewer 
people who are working on it. 

Jaroslav

>         Kevin Kofler



From fedora at leemhuis.info  Wed Apr  8 07:12:35 2009
From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:12:35 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>

/me tried to stay aways from this discussion, but now I bite

On 08.04.2009 08:55, Ankur Sinha wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 08:39 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> David wrote:
>>> Sorry Paul. But it does not look like, from what I read here, that there
>>> will be a vote on this.
>> And that's exactly what we're complaining about.
>> It looks very clear to me that the majority either wants Ctrl+Alt+BkSp
>> enabled by default or doesn't care either way. Only very few people have
>> ever accidentally triggered it.
> I haven't ever triggered it "accidently" till date.

I have. Multiple times actually. And I don't even know how emaxs is 
spelled or what it actually is.


Any yes, I missed it myself already now and then since I updated to 
rawhide. But I'm nevertheless glad it's gone.


But whatever: Mailing lists are not a good place to voting about 
"enabling or disabling Ctrl+Alt+BkSp". Only two of the several reasons:

- subscribers to lists like fedora-devel are quite different from 
ordinary users

- we never know how many people agree or disgree but don't reply

So we will never get any reliable data by a discussion or voting like 
this. Even a voting by all those that are registered in FAS would not 
help, as the problems would be similar.

CU
knurd



From kraxel at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 07:17:06 2009
From: kraxel at redhat.com (Gerd Hoffmann)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:17:06 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090408063728.GA5038@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>	<grgp1u$fb2$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090408063728.GA5038@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>
Message-ID: <49DC4F72.9010905@redhat.com>

On 04/08/09 08:37, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 06:53:33PM -0500, Ian Pilcher wrote:
>> Try putting your displays side-by-side sometime.  You'll likely need an
>> xorg.conf to specify a sufficiently wide virtual desktop.
>
>    If, by any chance, you are using Intel driver, this is no longer true.
> Intel driver in F11 has fb-resizing and specifing Virtual is no longer
> necessary.

Doesn't work for me.

[kraxel at zweiblum ~]$ xrandr --output LVDS1 --right-of DVI1
xrandr: screen cannot be larger than 2048x2048 (desired size 3360x1050)
[kraxel at zweiblum ~]$ xrandr --output LVDS1 --above DVI1
xrandr: screen cannot be larger than 2048x2048 (desired size 1680x2100)

Yes, rawhide.
Yes, intel.

cheers
   Gerd

PS: xorg-x11-drv-intel-2.6.99.902-1.fc11.x86_64

00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS, 
943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03) (prog-if 00 
[VGA controller])
         Subsystem: Lenovo ThinkPad T60/R60 series
         Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 16
         Memory at ee100000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=512K]
         I/O ports at 1800 [size=8]
         Memory at d0000000 (32-bit, prefetchable) [size=256M]
         Memory at ee200000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=256K]
         Expansion ROM at <unassigned> [disabled]
         Capabilities: <access denied>
         Kernel driver in use: i915
         Kernel modules: i915

00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS/GME, 
943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03)
         Subsystem: Lenovo ThinkPad T60/R60 series
         Flags: fast devsel
         Memory at ee180000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=512K]
         Capabilities: <access denied>



From jussi.lehtola at iki.fi  Wed Apr  8 07:17:12 2009
From: jussi.lehtola at iki.fi (Jussi Lehtola)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:17:12 +0300
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>  <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239175032.3257.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 08:39 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> David wrote:
> > Sorry Paul. But it does not look like, from what I read here, that there
> > will be a vote on this.
> 
> And that's exactly what we're complaining about.
> 
> It looks very clear to me that the majority either wants Ctrl+Alt+BkSp
> enabled by default or doesn't care either way. Only very few people have
> ever accidentally triggered it.

+1 [How does this voting system work anyways?]

Yes. In a multiuser system it makes a world of difference if you have to
reboot to get X working again, or if just killing X is enough.

To me it sounds silly to disable a quintessential feature of X just
because of a few broken programs that want to use Ctrl-Alt-BkSp for
something else.

If a user really wants to disable Ctrl-Alt-BkSp in order to use it as
input to a program, then s/he should modify xorg.conf.

PS. Personally I've had a lot more trouble with the sleep button on my
keyboard instead of Ctrl-Alt-Bksp, since the former is a lot easier to
trigger unwantedly :D
-- 
Jussi Lehtola
Fedora Project Contributor
jussilehtola at fedoraproject.org



From pemboa at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 07:49:25 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 02:49:25 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904080049x1d87ae7bua155cbf2ef8c959b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Thorsten Leemhuis <fedora at leemhuis.info> wrote:
> /me tried to stay aways from this discussion, but now I bite
>
> On 08.04.2009 08:55, Ankur Sinha wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 08:39 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>>
>>> David wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sorry Paul. But it does not look like, from what I read here, that there
>>>> will be a vote on this.
>>>
>>> And that's exactly what we're complaining about.
>>> It looks very clear to me that the majority either wants Ctrl+Alt+BkSp
>>> enabled by default or doesn't care either way. Only very few people have
>>> ever accidentally triggered it.
>>
>> I haven't ever triggered it "accidently" till date.
>
> I have. Multiple times actually. And I don't even know how emaxs is spelled
> or what it actually is.
>
>
> Any yes, I missed it myself already now and then since I updated to rawhide.
> But I'm nevertheless glad it's gone.
>
>
> But whatever: Mailing lists are not a good place to voting about "enabling
> or disabling Ctrl+Alt+BkSp". Only two of the several reasons:
>
> - subscribers to lists like fedora-devel are quite different from ordinary
> users
>
> - we never know how many people agree or disgree but don't reply

What you do have an idea of is the percentage of the people who care
enough to be here in the first place. Ignoring something based on what
an unknown number of people who probably don't care either way is
weird at best.

At this point, my understanding is that those that care don't have a
say -- so get over it.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr  8 07:56:48 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:26:48 +0530
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DC448D.9010205@redhat.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>	<49DBB051.4080200@comcast.net>	<49DBB514.2030206@googlemail.com>
	<49DC448D.9010205@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DC58C0.3030703@fedoraproject.org>

Christopher Aillon wrote:

> I already posted earlier in this thread[1] what the kickstart file has
> to look like.  It's now also on fpaste[2].  

FYI, it is also in the beta release notes and will be in the general
release one as well.

Rahul



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr  8 07:57:52 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 02:57:52 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904071545k1b53c291p716530999a8aeedc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>
	<grgke9$3u2$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<8278b1b0904071545k1b53c291p716530999a8aeedc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239177472.12468.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 17:45 -0500, King InuYasha wrote:


> True, but if there are people interested in it, perhaps some
> "profiles" could be made for use with cgc and packaged rather than
> relying on the toolkit since I doubt nVIDIA would release the profiles
> as open source. It does already contain a generic profile but without
> any code generation. My other guess is that this could be used to
> figure out how to implement a Cg compiler front end into LLVM. But,
> what do I know? I have no real knowledge of programming.

... Or spend your time and energy on something useful like implementing
GLSL instead.

... And actually it appears Cg has become a meta compiler for HLSL
(DirectX) and GLSL, so Cg is completely useless to us until we have
working GLSL in our open source drivers anyway. (Not to mention we need
working OpenGL period...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cg_(programming_language)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLSL

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From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr  8 08:11:19 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 03:11:19 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239178279.12468.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 19:43 -0500, King InuYasha wrote:

> Perhaps we could bring something like that to Fedora? We seem to be
> incorporating more interoperability features lately, and I think this
> would bring us quite a bit closer to that. Also it lets people try out
> Fedora without rebooting or using a costly virtual machine. Even
> better, this brings in the ability to run native Linux binaries on
> Windows because it is running under the Linux kernel process.
> Interestingly enough, this could also result in being able to do stuff
> like side by side testing of Wine vs Windows of the same program.

I've been toying with the idea of just porting Fedora packages to Win32.
But considering what little luck I've had compiling rpm against uclibc I
don't have high hopes for getting it to compile with mingw let alone
run...

Using a native Win32 GTK/QT would make the whole X server problem
moot...
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From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 08:31:53 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 03:31:53 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <1239178279.12468.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239178279.12468.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904080131q5b7cc750ib5b8cb66bf9233a1@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 19:43 -0500, King InuYasha wrote:
>
> > Perhaps we could bring something like that to Fedora? We seem to be
> > incorporating more interoperability features lately, and I think this
> > would bring us quite a bit closer to that. Also it lets people try out
> > Fedora without rebooting or using a costly virtual machine. Even
> > better, this brings in the ability to run native Linux binaries on
> > Windows because it is running under the Linux kernel process.
> > Interestingly enough, this could also result in being able to do stuff
> > like side by side testing of Wine vs Windows of the same program.
>
> I've been toying with the idea of just porting Fedora packages to Win32.
> But considering what little luck I've had compiling rpm against uclibc I
> don't have high hopes for getting it to compile with mingw let alone
> run...
>
> Using a native Win32 GTK/QT would make the whole X server problem
> moot...
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

There is a native Xlib for Win32 that doesn't use Xserver, libW11 (
http://libw11.sf.net) which is supposed to be compatible with libX11 and
translating those calls into GDI.
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From mhlavink at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 08:51:19 2009
From: mhlavink at redhat.com (Michal Hlavinka)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 10:51:19 +0200
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904081051.19871.mhlavink@redhat.com>

On Wednesday 08 April 2009 07:29:59 Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 15:46 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 20:37 +0100, psmith wrote:
> > > Adam Jackson wrote:
> > > > Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this
> > > > already, it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log
> > > > is stupid if you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping
> > > > Caps Lock to Compose like a sensible person.
> > >
> > > well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest
> > > the right solution?
> >
> > I said it.  Right there.  The bit about being a runtime XKB feature
> > already.
>

>
> Hey I have a genius idea. ENABLE ctl-alt-bs by default, and DISABLE it
> as part of the user login process. Are we expecting people to be using
> Emacs at the GDM login screen?

<JOKE>And what about setting Conflicts: emacs in dontzap package ? :) </JOKE>

Anyway, I think this discussion is useless. Because there are not millions of 
grumbling users, there will be no will to change it...



From mhlavink at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 09:13:30 2009
From: mhlavink at redhat.com (Michal Hlavinka)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:13:30 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904081113.30838.mhlavink@redhat.com>

On Wednesday 08 April 2009 08:39:23 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> David wrote:
> > Sorry Paul. But it does not look like, from what I read here, that there
> > will be a vote on this.
>
> And that's exactly what we're complaining about.
>
> It looks very clear to me that the majority either wants Ctrl+Alt+BkSp
> enabled by default or doesn't care either way. Only very few people have
> ever accidentally triggered it.
>
>         Kevin Kofler

I've made public inquiry at www.abclinuxu.cz ( 
http://www.abclinuxu.cz/ankety/zruseni-ctrl-alt-backspace-v-x ) - CZECH only, 
but unfortunately I asked my question wrong way. 

Instead of 'Disabling ctrl+alt+backspace by default in the X server is:'
I used 'Removing ctrl+alt+backspace from the X server is:'
a) good idea
b) I don't care
c) bad joke

results: 
voters: 1405
a) 3 % (45 votes)
b) 7 % (92 votes)
c) 90 % (1268 votes)

I agree this voting is not completely "valid" because of wrong question.

Michal



From anders at trudheim.co.uk  Wed Apr  8 09:28:37 2009
From: anders at trudheim.co.uk (Anders Rayner-Karlsson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:28:37 +0200
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <200904081051.19871.mhlavink@redhat.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904081051.19871.mhlavink@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090408092837.GH20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>

* Michal Hlavinka <mhlavink at redhat.com> [20090408 10:51]:
> On Wednesday 08 April 2009 07:29:59 Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > Hey I have a genius idea. ENABLE ctl-alt-bs by default, and DISABLE it
> > as part of the user login process. Are we expecting people to be using
> > Emacs at the GDM login screen?

The emacs conspiracy is getting seriously tired now...

> <JOKE>And what about setting Conflicts: emacs in dontzap package ? :) </JOKE>

*grin* Not a bad suggestion.

> Anyway, I think this discussion is useless. Because there are not millions of 
> grumbling users, there will be no will to change it...

There are some very vocal users that don't like the change. I had a
look at the man page for xorg.conf and one argument that's been
floated here is that applications grab focus and then misbehave.

Has anyone looked at and tested the AllowDeactivateGrabs and
AllowClosedownGrabs options in their xorg.conf instead of blindly
relying on C-A-Bs to shoot the server in the head? If they still have
keyboard interrupt, these options may actually be a better solution
than killing the entire X server.

Just a thought.

-- 
/Anders



From kaboon at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 09:32:37 2009
From: kaboon at gmail.com (kaboon)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:32:37 +0200
Subject: dontzap - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <20090408092837.GH20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904081051.19871.mhlavink@redhat.com>
	<20090408092837.GH20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3f5430b30904080232w59cdf130ha43a2fb4d783b3ac@mail.gmail.com>

Alright, I can't resist it anymore, I just have to throw in my $0.02
(or ?0.015). :)

This discussion has gone everywhere by now and it might be just me,
but what exactly *is* the big deal here? Upstream decided to make a
change to the shortcut behavior. It's been well spoken of by now.
People have blogged about it. It's in the release notes (isn't that
what it's for?). The excuse "people don't read release notes" does not
apply at all here (IMHO). When they run into the "problem" they could
have known it (what's the term again? RTFM?).

Besides the fact that it's disabled by default doesn't mean it can be
reverted. There have been various solutions by now, they just need to
be well documented to work. Sure, a checkbox in a configuration tool
would be nice for the less experienced user, but is making a change to
(perhaps a non existing) xorg.conf file that hard when it's been well
documented? I guess it's just as hard as installing a 3th party piece
of software which is currently not in the Fedora repo's. It'd require
some knowledge of the software you're working with.

Please keep in mind that I'm just thinking out loud here. There are no
bad intentions in my post and I'm not trying to defend the change
(although I can live with it perfectly fine). I'm just trying to
figure out what it's all about.

PS. Also, I might even have missed out on some important statements.
Feel free to let me know if I'm (completely) wrong here.



From jussi.lehtola at iki.fi  Wed Apr  8 10:09:28 2009
From: jussi.lehtola at iki.fi (Jussi Lehtola)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:09:28 +0300
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904080131q5b7cc750ib5b8cb66bf9233a1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239178279.12468.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904080131q5b7cc750ib5b8cb66bf9233a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 03:31 -0500, King InuYasha wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:

> There is a native Xlib for Win32 that doesn't use Xserver, libW11
> (http://libw11.sf.net) which is supposed to be compatible with libX11
> and translating those calls into GDI.

Doesn't look too promising: it's still in alpha stage, and has been 
updated last in 2001...
-- 
Jussi Lehtola
Fedora Project Contributor
jussilehtola at fedoraproject.org



From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 11:42:26 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 07:42:26 -0400
Subject: A program in Python to get Source RPM's from cvs
In-Reply-To: <505991.17589.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <505991.17589.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090408114226.GP23842@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 03:15:42PM -0700, Paty Constantino wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm doing a program in Python, which for now is taking an application name and
> gives you the corresponding source rpm, if you run the program the first thing
> that will appear is this:

I'm not sure the intent is 100% identical, but have you seen Matt
Domsch's "CorrespondingSource" project?  Perhaps you'd like to take a
look and see if you'd like to participate there:

https://fedorahosted.org/correspondingsource/browser

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr  8 12:11:45 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:41:45 +0530
Subject: Multiple package ownership
Message-ID: <49DC9481.3060405@fedoraproject.org>

Hi

Just coincidentally ran into this while checking package ownership on
one of my systems which appears to be bugs related to ownership. Should
bug reports be filed on this? Do we have scripts that check for this?

# rpm -qf /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps

hicolor-icon-theme-0.10-4.noarch
nautilus-cd-burner-2.24.0-1.fc10.i386
amsn-0.97.2-2.fc10.i386
seahorse-2.24.1-1.fc10.i386

Rahul



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr  8 12:54:38 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Wed,  8 Apr 2009 12:54:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
Message-ID: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Wed Apr  8 06:15:03 UTC 2009

New package R-IRanges
        Low-level containers for storing sets of integer ranges
New package globus-common
        Globus Toolkit - Common Library
New package healpix
        Hierarchical Equal Area isoLatitude Pixelization of a sphere
New package ibus-table-erbi
        Erbi input methods for ibus-table
New package jamin
        JACK Audio Connection Kit (JACK) Audio Mastering interface
New package libmkv
        An alternative to the official libmatroska library
New package perl-Hash-Flatten
        Flatten/unflatten complex data hashes
New package perl-Term-Size-Any
        Retrieve terminal size
New package pyrrd
        A Pure Python Wrapper for RRDTool
New package qtscriptgenerator
        A tool to generate Qt bindings for Qt Script
New package redir
        Redirect TCP connections
Removed package libopensync-plugin-vformat
Updated Packages:

R-2.8.1-9.fc11
--------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 2.8.1-9
- drop profile.d scripts, they broke more than they fixed
- minimize hard-coded Requires based on Martyn Plummer's analysis


SDL-1.2.13-9.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Thomas Woerner <twoerner at redhat.com> 1.2.13-9
- fixed qemu-kvm segfaults on startup in SDL_memcpyMMX/SSE (rhbz#487720)
  upstream patch


amarok-2.0.2-5.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 2.0.2-5
- enable external qtscriptgenerator/qtscriptbindings
- optimize scriptlets

* Tue Mar 10 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 2.0.2-4
- Req: qtscriptgenerator (f11+) (not enabled, pending review)
- use desktop-file-validate


anaconda-11.5.0.41-1
--------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 11.5.0.41-1
- Make sure we have a clean lvm ignore list when we initialize. (jgranado)
- We need to search by name without the "mapper" prefix. (jgranado)
- Create a min_max constraint to avoid alignments issues. (jgranado)
- Don't exit the installer from filesystem errors. (dlehman)
- Try not to raise exceptions from minSize calculators. (dlehman)
- Don't traceback when PVs are encrypted or are not partitions. (dlehman)
- Adjust device dependencies when backing out device encryption. (#493257)
  (dlehman)
- Include filesystem type in mount log message. (dlehman)
- Load filesystem modules on demand (#490795, #494108). (clumens)
- Use existing partitions when --onpart is used for PVs or raid members
  (#493065) (rvykydal)
- Raise message, not exception when size set in LV dialog is too big.
  (rvykydal)
- Raise an error when remofing an extended part with logical parts.
  (jgranado)
- Esthetic changes to storage/partitioning.py. (jgranado)
- dmraid.py is no longer being used by anything, so remove it. (clumens)
- Remove partedUtils.py. (clumens)
- This is the only place isEfiSystemPartition is used, so pull it in.
  (clumens)
- getReleaseString now lives in the storage module. (clumens)
- Stop lying about our support for dmraid and multipath in kickstart.
  (clumens)
- Remove some old, unused code that also uses biosGeometry. (clumens)
- For very small disks, don't try to display a stripe in the graph
  (#480484). (clumens)
- Fix reading the console= parameter from the cmdline (#490731). (clumens)
- For dmraid partititons device node name != name (hdegoede)
- When a partition request gets unallocated, set the name back to req#
  (hdegoede)
- Do not use getPartitionByPath() in allocatePartitions() (hdegoede)
- Remove no longer used iscsi_get_node_record function (hdegoede)
- Try to handle devices which live in a subdir of /dev properly (hdegoede)
- Split DeviceTree.addUdevDevice into several smaller methods. (dlehman)
- Don't traceback from failure finding minimum fs size. (#494070) (dlehman)
- udev_settle after format teardown to avoid EBUSY on device teardown.
  (#492670) (dlehman)
- Add a parted.Device attribute to all existing StorageDevices. (dlehman)
- If no partitioning commands are given, apply the UI selections (#490880).
  (clumens)
- Update font package names for ml_IN, si_LK, etc. (#493792, #493794).
  (clumens)
- Fix a typo in the city name for Nepali (#493803). (clumens)
- Fix writing out the partition= line on PPC (#492732). (clumens)
- Do not check size when adding LV to growing VG (bug #492264) (rvykydal)


asymptote-1.69-1.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1.69-1
- update to 1.69


ax25-tools-0.0.9-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Mar 12 2009 Randall J. Berry <dp67 at fedoraproject.org> 0.0.9-1
- Upstream update to 0.0.9, #488049
- Upstream URL has changed
- Remove patches applied to newer source


baekmuk-bdf-fonts-2.2-7.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Caius 'kaio' Chance <cchance at redhat.com> - 2.2-7.fc11
- Rebuilt for Fedora 11.


baekmuk-ttf-fonts-2.2-21.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Caius 'kaio' Chance <cchance at redhat.com> - 2.2-21.fc11
- Resolves: rhbz#483327 (Fixed unowned directories.)


bash-completion-1.0-2.fc11
--------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 1:1.0-2
- Apply upstream patch to fix quoting issues with bash 4.x (#490322).


boinc-client-6.4.7-9.r17542svn.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 6.4.7-9.r17542svn
- Fix logrotate script (resolves BZ#494179).


ccrtp-1.7.1-1.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Andreas Thienemann <andreas at bawue.net> - 1.7.1-1
- Update to upstream release 1.7.1


check-0.9.6-3.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Jerry James <loganjerry at gmail.com> - 0.9.6-3
- Add check-0.9.6-strdup.patch


cjkuni-fonts-0.2.20080216.1-23.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Caius 'kaio' Chance <cchance at redhat.com> - 0.2.20080216.1-23.fc11
- Resolves: rhbz#483320 (Declared ownership of compatibility directories.)

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Caius 'kaio' Chance <cchance at redhat.com> - 0.2.20080216.1-22.fc11
- Resolves: rhbz#491956.
- Rebuilt for Fedora 11.


cloog-0.15-0.7.gitad322.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Dodji Seketeli <dodji at redhat.org> - 0.15-0.6.gitad322
- Remove the cloog.info that is in the tarball
  That forces the regeneration of a new cloog.info with
  suitable INFO_DIR_SECTION, so that install-info doesn't cry
  at install time.
- Slightly changed the patch to make install-info actually
  install the cloog information in the info directory file.
- Run install-info --delete in %preun, not in %postun,
  otherwise the info file is long gone with we try to
  run install-info --delete on it.

* Wed Apr 08 2009 Dodji Seketeli <dodji at redhat.org> - 0.15-0.7.gitad322
- Add BuildRequire texinfo needed to regenerate the cloog.info doc


device-mapper-multipath-0.4.8-10.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Milan Broz <mbroz at redhat.com> - 0.4.8-10
- Fix insecure permissions on multipathd.sock (CVE-2009-0115)


eclipse-emf-2.4.2-3.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Alexander Kurtakov <akurtako at redhat.com> 2.4.2-3
- Fix directory ownership.


eclipse-gef-3.4.2-3.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Alexander Kurtakov <akurtako at redhat.com> 3.4.2-3
- Fix directory ownership.
- Drop gcj support.


eclipse-photran-4.0.0-0.6.b5.fc11
---------------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Orion Poplawski <orion at cora.nwra.com> - 4.0.0-0.6.b5
- Add patch from discussion list to fix outline view


farsight2-0.0.9-1.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 0.0.9-1
- Update to 0.0.9.


gcx-0.9.11-8.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Marek Mahut <mmahut at fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.11-8
- Fix mime association with FITS files (RHBZ#494430)


gnome-keyring-2.26.0-3.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-3
- Revert the previous patch since it causes crashes


gnome-screensaver-2.26.0-2.fc11
-------------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Make the idle time slider work again


grub-0.97-47.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Peter Jones <pjones at redhat.com> - 0.97-47
- Add more filenames to the tftp config file search list
- Tweak FAT filename comparison...
- Vomit.


gtk2-2.16.0-2.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Marek Kasik <mkasik at redhat.com> - 2.16.0-2
- Add authentication support to GtkPrintBackend.


guake-0.4.0-1.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 pingou <pingou at pingoured.fr> - 0.4.0-1
- Update to version 0.4.0


hdf-4.2r4-2.fc11
----------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Orion Poplawski <orion at cora.nwra.com> 4.2r4-2
- Add Provides hdf-static to hdf-devel (bug #494529)


ibus-1.1.0.20090407-3.fc11
--------------------------

ikiwiki-3.09-1.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Thomas Moschny <thomas.moschny at gmx.de> - 3.09-1
- Update to 3.09.


imsettings-0.106.2-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Akira TAGOH <tagoh at redhat.com> - 0.106.2-1
- New upstream release.
  - Fix a freeze issue on X applications with switching IM (#488877)
  - Fix a segfault issue with switching IM (#488899)
  - Fix not creating .xinputrc with disabiling IM first time (#490587)
  - Invoke IM for certain locales. (#493406)


initscripts-8.94-1
------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> - 8.94-1
- prefdm: add simple fallbacks, sort rpmdb query for consistency (#494461)
- translation updates; bn, de, pt, ru, te


jetty-5.1.14-3.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 Jeff Johnston <jjohnstn at redhat.com> 5.1.14-3
- Add %{libdir} to files list.
- Resolves #473585


kanyremote-5.8.1-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Mikhail Fedotov <anyremote at mail.ru> - 5.8.1
- Fix small bug


kdelibs-4.2.2-3.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-2
- upstream patch to fix kio_http issue

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-3
- fix kickoff focus issue


kernel-2.6.29.1-54.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com>
- drm-modesetting-radeon: repair vt switch


kerneloops-0.12-5.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>  0.12-5
- Log the URL of the last patch submitted to the system log (#493963)


kexec-tools-2.0.0-12.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Neil Horman <nhorman at redhat.com> - 2.0.0-12
- Simplifed rootfs mounting code in mkdumprd (bz 494416)


konq-plugins-4.2.2-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-1
- KDE 4.2.2


krb5-1.6.3-20.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Nalin Dahyabhai <nalin at redhat.com> 1.6.3-20
- add patches for read overflow and null pointer dereference in the
  implementation of the SPNEGO mechanism (CVE-2009-0844, CVE-2009-0845)
- add patch for attempt to free uninitialized pointer in libkrb5
  (CVE-2009-0846)
- add patch to fix length validation bug in libkrb5 (CVE-2009-0847)


ladspa-swh-plugins-0.4.15-15.fc11
---------------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 0.4.15-15
- fix this package so it builds properly, with the right optflags, and without tons of missing symbols


libatasmart-0.7-1.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.7-1
- New upstream release


libcddb-1.3.2-1.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at redhat.com> 1.3.2-1
- New upstream release 1.3.2


libdrm-2.4.6-3.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Kristian H??gsberg <krh at redhat.com> - 2.4.6-3
- BuildRequire libudev-devel for test cases.


libgnomemm26-2.26.0-1
---------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 2.26.0-1
- Update to upstream 2.26.0


libgnomeuimm26-2.26.0-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 2.26.0-1
- Update to upstream 2.26.0


libvoikko-2.1-0.2.rc2.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi> - 2.1-0.1.rc1
- New release candidate
- Improvements on grammar checking and dictionary loading
- Raise malaga-suomi-voikko dependency to 1.3-10, which has the new dictionary
  data directory layout needed by this version of libvoikko
- Add BuildRequires python for running the trie compiler during build
- Add patch for GCC 4.4 and glibc 2.90 compliance
- Add patch to fix warn_unused_result errors

* Mon Apr 06 2009 Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi> - 2.1-0.2.rc2
- New release candidate
- Both patches applied upstream


libzrtpcpp-1.4.3-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Kevin Fenzi <kevin at tummy.com> - 1.4.3-1
- Update to 1.4.3 and rebuild against new ccrtp


malaga-suomi-voikko-1.3-10.fc11
-------------------------------
* Fri Mar 06 2009 - Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi> 1.3-10
- Install data files into the new location expected by libvoikko 2.1
- Bump Release to 10 to differentiate this from earlier packages,
  this release or higher needs to be required by the libvoikko 2.1 package


mesa-7.5-0.8.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 7.5-0.8
- radeon: fix gnome-shell startup


mingw32-qt-qmake-4.5.0-3.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Thomas Sailer <t.sailer at alumni.ethz.ch> - 4.5.0-3
- disable empty debuginfo package


mirrormanager-1.2.11-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Matt Domsch <mdomsch at fedoraproject.org> - 1.2.11-1
- fix quite a few bugs from previous version


mod_fcgid-2.2-10.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Paul Howarth <paul at city-fan.org> 2.2-10
- EL 5.3 now has SELinux support in the main selinux-policy package so handle
  that release as per Fedora >= 8, except that the RHEL selinux-policy package
  doesn't Obsolete/Provide mod_fcgid-selinux like the Fedora version, so do
  the obsoletion here instead


mod_mono-2.4-4.1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-4.1
- Remove ppc support

* Thu Mar 26 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-4
- Full 2.4 release

* Wed Mar 18 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-3.RC3
- Bump to RC3

* Tue Mar 10 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-3.RC2
- Bump to RC2


mono-2.4-13.1.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> - 2.4-13.1
- Remove ppc support
- moonlight parts are now in their own subpackage

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Xavier Lamien <lxtnow at gmail.com> - 2.4-13
- Enable moonlight support.

* Thu Mar 26 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-12
- Full 2.4 release

* Wed Mar 18 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-11.RC3
- Bump to RC3

* Tue Mar 10 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-10.RC2
- Bump to RC2


mono-basic-2.4-4.1.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-4.1
- Remove ppc

* Thu Mar 26 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-4
- Full 2.4 release

* Wed Mar 18 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-3.RC3
- bump to RC3

* Tue Mar 10 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-2.RC2
- bump to RC2


mono-debugger-2.4-8.fc11
------------------------
* Thu Mar 26 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-8
- Full 2.4 release

* Wed Mar 18 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-7.RC3
- Bump to RC3

* Tue Mar 10 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-6.RC2
- Move back to official tarballs
- Bump to RC2


mono-tools-2.4-8.1.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> - 2.4-8.1
- remove ppc

* Thu Mar 26 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> - 2.4-8
- Full 2.4 release

* Wed Mar 18 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> - 2.4-7.RC3
- bump to RC3

* Thu Mar 12 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> - 2.4-6.RC2
- bump to RC2
- Add BR mono-web-devel


mtools-4.0.10-1.fc11
--------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Adam Tkac <atkac redhat com> 4.0.10-1
- update to 4.0.10


nexuiz-2.5-1.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 2.5-1
- New upstream release.


nexuiz-data-2.5-1.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 2.5-1
- New upstream release.


numpy-1.3.0-1.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> 1.3.0-1
- Update to latest upstream.
- Fixed Source0 URL.


openoffice.org-voikko-3.1-0.1.rc1.fc11
--------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi> - 3.1-0.1.rc1
- New release candidate
- Grammar checking enabled


orsa-0.7.0-7.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.7.0-7
- Fix segfault on missing jpl file.

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.7.0-6
- Do not complain loudly if the configuration file is missing (fix #494342)


perl-5.10.0-67.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Stepan Kasal <skasal at redhat.com> - 4:5.10.0-66
- fix CGI::escape for all strings (#472571)
- perl-CGI-t-util-58.patch: Do not distort lib/CGI/t/util-58.t
  http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=64502

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Stepan Kasal <skasal at redhat.com> - 4:5.10.0-67
- update CGI to 3.43, dropping upstreamed perl-CGI-escape.patch


php-pear-HTML-Common-1.2.5-1.fc11
---------------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Remi Collet <Fedora at FamilleCollet.com> 1.2.5-1
- update to 1.2.5 (bugfix)


php-pear-HTML-QuickForm-advmultiselect-1.5.1-1.fc11
---------------------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Remi Collet <Fedora at FamilleCollet.com> 1.5.1-1
- update to 1.5.1 (bugfix)
- raise requirement for php-pear(HTML_Common) >= 1.2.5


pidgin-privacy-please-0.5.3-2.fc11
----------------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Guillaume Kulakowski <guillaume DOT kulakowski AT fedoraproject DOT org> - 0.5.3-2
- Modifications for EL-5

 Mon Mar 16 2009 Guillaume Kulakowski <guillaume DOT kulakowski AT fedoraproject DOT org> - 0.5.3-1
- Update to 0.5.3


python-beaker-1.3-1.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Felix Schwarz <felix.schwarz at oss.schwarz.eu> - 1.3-1
- Update to 1.3


python-netaddr-0.6.1-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 John Eckersberg <jeckersb at redhat.com> - 0.6.1-1
- New upstream bugfix release


rcssmonitor-13.1.0-2.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Hedayat Vatankhah <hedayat at grad.com> 13.1.0-1
- Updated to new upstream release

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Hedayat Vatankhah <hedayat at grad.com> 13.1.0-2
- Added a patch for gcc4.4 compilation fixing.


rcssserver-13.2.0-1.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Hedayat Vatankhah <hedayat at grad.com> 13.2.0-1
- Updated to the latest upstream release


rednotebook-0.6.6-1.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.6.6-1
- Updated to new upstream version 0.6.6


saoimage-1.35.1-6.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Lubomir Rintel (Fedora Astronomy) <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 1.35.1-6
- Fix blink crash
- Fix print crash caused by mkstemp patch
- Add a lot of missing includes, making FORTIFY_SOURCE effective


selinux-policy-3.6.11-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.11-1
- Dontaudit binds to ports < 1024 for named
- Upgrade to latest upstream


siril-0.8-7.fc11
----------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 0.8-7
- Fix crash on incorrectly loaded pictures (#494536)


solfege-3.14.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 3.14.1-1
- New upstream release
- Add patch to not require X to build
- Add patch to fix desktop file, don't use extensions without path in Icon=
- Add lilypond dependency
- Make sure permissions in debuginfo are sane


sqlite-3.6.12-2.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Panu Matilainen <pmatilai at redhat.com> - 3.6.12-2
- disable strict aliasing to work around brokenness on 3.6.12 (#494266)
- run test-suite on build but let it fail for now


system-config-samba-1.2.72-1.fc11
---------------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.2.72-1
- merge SambaBackend and UserData classes (#490050)

* Mon Apr 06 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com>
- remove unnecessary mainWindow import
- keep section information with parser object

* Mon Mar 30 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com>
- further backend cleanup

* Tue Mar 24 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com>
- remove commented out old code
- don't pass off GUI objects into backend code


taglib-extras-0.1.2-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Eelko Berkenpies <fedora at berkenpies.nl> - 0.1.2-1
- taglib-extras-0.1.2


taipeifonts-1.2-7.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Caius 'kaio' Chance <cchance at redhat.com> - 1.2-7.fc11
- Rebuilt for Fedora 11.


tigervnc-0.0.90-0.4.20090403svn3751.fc11
----------------------------------------

tripwire-2.4.1.2-9.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Steven M. Parrish <tuxbrewr at fedoraproject.org> - 2.4.1.2-9
- Added support for /usr/lib64 & /usr/local/lib64


twinkle-1.4.2-2.fc11
--------------------

vdr-ttxtsubs-0.0.9-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 0.0.9-1
- 0.0.9.


waf-1.5.4-1.fc11
----------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Thomas Moschny <thomas.moschny at gmx.de> - 1.5.4-1
- Update to 1.5.4.


wine-1.1.18-1.fc11
------------------
* Mon Mar 30 2009 Andreas Bierfert <andreas.bierfert[AT]lowlatency.de>
- 1.1.18-1
- version upgrade (#490672, #491321)
- winepulse update


xapian-bindings-1.0.11-2.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Peter Robinson<pbrobinson at gmail.com> 1.0.11-2
- Obsolete pyxapian


xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.1-9.fc11
------------------------------

xorg-x11-drv-intel-2.6.99.902-2.fc11
------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Kristian H??gsberg <krh at redhat.com> - 2.6.99.902-2
- Update to newer 2.7 snapshot, drop no-legacy3d.patch.


xorg-x11-drv-nouveau-0.0.12-24.20090408git960a5c8.fc11
------------------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 0.0.12-24.20090408git960a5c8
- modify nv50 ddc regs again, fix kms edid property

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 0.0.12-23.20090407git11451ca
- upstream update: rh#492399, nv50 PROM fixes


xorg-x11-drv-nv-2.1.13-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 2.1.13-1
- nv 2.1.13
- nv.xinf: Add 7025/7050.


xsp-2.4-7.1.fc11
----------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-7.1
- Remove ppc build

* Thu Mar 26 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-7
- Full 2.4 release

* Wed Mar 18 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-6.RC3
- bump to RC3

* Thu Mar 12 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-5.RC2
- bump to RC2


yelp-2.26.0-2.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Clean up Requires a bit


yum-3.2.22-2.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Seth Vidal <skvidal at fedoraproject.org> - 3.2.22-2
- yum-HEAD minus the yumdb patches


Summary:
Added Packages: 11
Removed Packages: 1
Modified Packages: 93






Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.1.13
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.1.13
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.SqliteClient) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.SqliteClient) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-musicbrainz-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-musicbrainz-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-musicbrainz-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.Sqlite) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires libmono.so.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires libmono.so.0(VER_1)
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-devel-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	beagle-devel-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.Sqlite) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	blam-1.8.5-6.fc11.ppc requires mono-web
	bless-0.6.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	cdcollect-0.6.0-7.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
	cdcollect-0.6.0-7.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.1.17
	cowbell-0.3-0.svn34.4.fc10.ppc requires mono-core
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cecil) = 0:0.6.9.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Drawing) = 0:2.0.0.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.GetOptions) = 0:2.0.0.0
	dbus-sharp-0.63-11.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	evolution-sharp-0.20.0-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	evolution-sharp-0.20.0-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.SqliteClient) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gecko-sharp2-0.13-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gmime-sharp-2.4.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.24.0-3.fc10.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.24.0-3.fc10.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Core) = 0:3.5.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-guitar-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-doc-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	gnome-sharp-2.24.0-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-subtitles-0.8-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-subtitles-0.8-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-subtitles-0.8-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	graphviz-sharp-2.20.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	gsf-sharp-0.8.1-9.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Drawing) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtksourceview2-sharp-1.0-3.svn89788.3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	ice-csharp-3.3.1-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ice-csharp-3.3.1-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ice-csharp-3.3.1-1.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.2
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	kimono-4.2.2-2.fc11.ppc requires libmono.so.0
	kimono-4.2.2-2.fc11.ppc requires libmono.so.0(VER_1)
	lat-1.2.3-6.fc11.ppc requires mono-data
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:0.84.0.0
	mono-cecil-flowanalysis-0.1-0.8.20080409svn100264.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cecil) = 0:0.6.9.0
	mono-cecil-flowanalysis-0.1-0.8.20080409svn100264.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-nat-1.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-nat-1.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-nat-1.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires mono-web
	monosim-1.3.0.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
	monosim-1.3.0.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-web >= 0:1.2.3
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono-web
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	ndesk-dbus-glib-0.4.1-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	notify-sharp-0.4.0-0.6.20080912svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	notify-sharp-doc-0.4.0-0.6.20080912svn.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	qyoto-devel-4.2.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-devel
	sublib-0.9-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	sublib-0.9-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
	themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
	webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice





From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 13:06:57 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:06:57 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904080606r7cb60342i841dcff7f69c451@mail.gmail.com>

> mono-2.4-13.1.fc11
> ------------------
> * Mon Apr 06 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> - 2.4-13.1
> - Remove ppc support
> - moonlight parts are now in their own subpackage
>
> * Thu Apr 02 2009 Xavier Lamien <lxtnow at gmail.com> - 2.4-13
> - Enable moonlight support.

Is moonlight still not on the Fedora Forbidden list?

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems#Moonlight

Or has the circumstances changed and the wiki not been updated?

Peter



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 13:10:11 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:10:11 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239178279.12468.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904080131q5b7cc750ib5b8cb66bf9233a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>

In risk of sounding like a troll or nay-sayer... why would you want to
port Fedora packages to Win32?

-Adam

-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From fnasser at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 13:21:09 2009
From: fnasser at redhat.com (Fernando Nasser)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:21:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <49DC9481.3060405@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>

That is correct.  All the packages that install things in this directory must own it so it will only go away when the last of them is uninstalled.

If you find a package that own a file in that directory and does not own it, then you should indeed file a bug for a missing ownership.

I hope that helps.

Regards,
Fernando


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rahul Sundaram" <sundaram at fedoraproject.org>
To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 8:11:45 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Multiple package ownership

Hi

Just coincidentally ran into this while checking package ownership on
one of my systems which appears to be bugs related to ownership. Should
bug reports be filed on this? Do we have scripts that check for this?

# rpm -qf /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps

hicolor-icon-theme-0.10-4.noarch
nautilus-cd-burner-2.24.0-1.fc10.i386
amsn-0.97.2-2.fc10.i386
seahorse-2.24.1-1.fc10.i386

Rahul

-- 
fedora-devel-list mailing list
fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list



From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 13:28:06 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:28:06 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DC4F72.9010905@redhat.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<grgp1u$fb2$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090408063728.GA5038@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>
	<49DC4F72.9010905@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239197286.12485.18.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 09:17 +0200, Gerd Hoffmann wrote:
> On 04/08/09 08:37, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 06:53:33PM -0500, Ian Pilcher wrote:
> >> Try putting your displays side-by-side sometime.  You'll likely need an
> >> xorg.conf to specify a sufficiently wide virtual desktop.
> >
> >    If, by any chance, you are using Intel driver, this is no longer true.
> > Intel driver in F11 has fb-resizing and specifing Virtual is no longer
> > necessary.
> 
> Doesn't work for me.
> 
> [kraxel at zweiblum ~]$ xrandr --output LVDS1 --right-of DVI1
> xrandr: screen cannot be larger than 2048x2048 (desired size 3360x1050)
> [kraxel at zweiblum ~]$ xrandr --output LVDS1 --above DVI1
> xrandr: screen cannot be larger than 2048x2048 (desired size 1680x2100)
> 
> Yes, rawhide.
> Yes, intel.
>
> <snip>
>
> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS, 
> 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03) (prog-if 00 

Yes, broken hardware.  There's a 2048 pixel limit we're not letting you
exceed by default because 3d breaks if you do.

- ajax
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From wm161 at wm161.net  Wed Apr  8 13:28:28 2009
From: wm161 at wm161.net (Trever Fischer)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:28:28 -0400
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>

On Wednesday 08 April 2009 9:10:11 am Adam Miller wrote:
> In risk of sounding like a troll or nay-sayer... why would you want to
> port Fedora packages to Win32?
>
So you can have some good quality software on a windows system.
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From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 13:29:56 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:29:56 -0400
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>
	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>
	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239197396.12485.19.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 00:29 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 15:46 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 20:37 +0100, psmith wrote:
> > > Adam Jackson wrote:
> > > > Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
> > > > it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
> > > > you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
> > > > Compose like a sensible person.
> > >
> > > well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the 
> > > right solution?
> > 
> > I said it.  Right there.  The bit about being a runtime XKB feature
> > already.
> 
> Even though the time I most likely want ctl-alt-bs is BEFORE any login,
> and quite possibly before GDM has even run, because the video driver is
> b0rked?
> 
> Hey I have a genius idea. ENABLE ctl-alt-bs by default, and DISABLE it
> as part of the user login process. Are we expecting people to be using
> Emacs at the GDM login screen?

This is an entirely reasonable idea, but again, gdm is completely
capable of doing this itself without modifying xorg.conf.

- ajax
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From maxamillion at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 13:36:43 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:36:43 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
Message-ID: <f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>

Far enough, but is there a way to run yum or any other package manager
in order to acquire the software?

-Adam

-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  8 13:40:51 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:40:51 +0100
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <1239142002.12485.12.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBB13B.6010704@googlemail.com>
	<1239142002.12485.12.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DCA963.6050802@googlemail.com>

Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 21:02 +0100, psmith wrote:
>   
>> Adam Jackson wrote:
>>     
>>> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 20:37 +0100, psmith wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Adam Jackson wrote:
>>>>         
>>>>> Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
>>>>> it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
>>>>> you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
>>>>> Compose like a sensible person.
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the 
>>>> right solution?
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> I said it.  Right there.  The bit about being a runtime XKB feature
>>> already.
>>>
>>>       
>> and you think an average user will know how to do this compared to 
>> installing rahuls dontzap package, and maybe just maybe when the next 
>> big change comes around in xorg you could let the community know 
>> beforehand instead of thinking your godlike
>>     
>
> My godlike what?
>
> All the other runtime XKB features are pretty well discoverable.
> gnome-keyboard-properties, layouts, layout options.
>
> - ajax
>   
godlike as in taking votes on changes that will effect every xorg user 
in hidden polls, after all the discussions held previously and since 
were against the change, (apart for the few who hit keys aimlessly to 
see what happens or those who don't type to well) and not asking the 
community you are supposedly part of what they think, or even letting 
them know it was on the cards, anyway i've had enough of this i'll 
either patch the x source myself to put it back or live with regressing 
to using an xorg.conf, just to please the aforementioned few!

phil



From musuruan at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 13:49:59 2009
From: musuruan at gmail.com (Andrea Musuruane)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 15:49:59 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904080606r7cb60342i841dcff7f69c451@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904080606r7cb60342i841dcff7f69c451@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29fee02b0904080649r2f9e871bu20e1fd9895206335@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is moonlight still not on the Fedora Forbidden list?
Yes.

> Or has the circumstances changed and the wiki not been updated?

No. Please read:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492048

Bye,

Andrea.



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  8 13:55:26 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:55:26 +0100
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DBD952.3030909@comcast.net>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>	<49DBB051.4080200@comcast.net>	<49DBB514.2030206@googlemail.com>
	<49DBD77E.8010604@comcast.net> <49DBD952.3030909@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49DCACCE.2000505@googlemail.com>

David wrote:
> On 4/7/2009 6:48 PM, David wrote:
>   
>> On 4/7/2009 4:18 PM, psmith wrote:
>>     
>>> David wrote:
>>>       
>>>> On 4/7/2009 3:37 PM, psmith wrote:
>>>>         
>
>   
>>>>> Adam Jackson wrote:
>>>>>           
>
>   
>>>>>> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 16:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>>>>>             
>
>
>
>   
>>>>>>> Michal Hlavinka wrote:
>>>>>>>               
>
>
>
>   
>>>>>>>> And what about
>>>>>>>>                 
>
>
>
>   
>>>>>>>> RFE: Zap after warning (
>>>>>>>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494528 )
>>>>>>>>                 
>
>
>
>   
>>>>>>>> They've chosen this way in opensuse - first time you press c+a+bs it
>>>>>>>> produces warning (bell) and second time it works as usual
>>>>>>>>                 
>
>
>
>   
>>>>>>>> And bonus: it uses less space than two new packages :o)
>>>>>>>>                 
>
>
>
>   
>>>>>>> If and when the RFE's gets accepted, maybe. I wouldn't count on it.
>>>>>>> Meanwhile, x-kit is being used by a number of other programs and
>>>>>>> useful
>>>>>>> to have in the repository.  If you have x-kit, dontzap is just a small
>>>>>>> script. No big deal.
>>>>>>>               
>
>
>
>
>   
>>>>>> Please.  Stop talking about xkit.  We have a library for this already,
>>>>>> it's called pyxf86config.  Writing the change to the X log is stupid if
>>>>>> you can also do it as a runtime XKB change, like mapping Caps Lock to
>>>>>> Compose like a sensible person.
>>>>>>             
>
>
>
>   
>>>>>> The dontzap script is the wrong solution.  Please stop suggesting it.
>>>>>>             
>
>
>
>   
>>>>>> - ajax
>>>>>>             
>
>
>
>   
>>>>> well since the xorg devs decided to disable x zapping please suggest the
>>>>> right solution?
>>>>>           
>
>
>
>   
>>>> How about trying this? 'Put it back in yourself'.  ;-)
>>>>         
>
>   
>>>> It looks like this.
>>>>         
>
>
>   
>>>> Section "ServerFlags"
>>>> Option "DontZap" "false"
>>>> EndSection
>>>>         
>
>
>
>
>
>   
>>> and since were supposed to be moving away from using an xorg.conf all of
>>> us who want to be able to restart x (and believe me as good as those
>>> xorg devs think their code is it still happens quite regularly) without
>>> having to go to a virtual terminal etc have to regress to using one to
>>> keep people who want to make linux like windows or those emacs users who
>>> don't type to well happy.
>>>       
>
>
>
> Then I guess that you will have to compile your own Xorg with the switch
> turned on?  :-)
>
>
> Seriously. From what I read 'they' are trying to make Xorg better able to
> handle common things without a conf file. But Xorg still does use a conf
> file if it is exists. In other words? The dontzap that you set stays. As
> well as the nonfree drivers that some use and need the conf file.
>
> Relax man. You'll live longer.  8-) 
>   
you know it may seem from my messages that i'm raging about this but 
it's not the case, and if you can read emotions from typed text you are 
a special individual ;)

i am a very chilled i'm my life and in fact i have already mentioned 
that i will compile x with the years old standards set, heck i may even 
put up a repo for others who wont like this change to use (and trust me 
when i say that as more and more distro's implement this new x there 
will be lots of those people) but i still say that fedora should take 
the lead and revert this stupid change as most who have posted on this 
in the fedora lists are against it, they have diverted from upstream on 
many different things and i don't see why this should be different, and 
then let those who want this change regress to using an xorg.conf

phil



From cchance at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 14:06:28 2009
From: cchance at redhat.com (Caius "kaio" Chance)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 00:06:28 +1000
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <49D4CB60.5060009@googlemail.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>	<f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>	<49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com>	<49D41060.50907@redhat.com>
	<49D4CB60.5060009@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49DCAF64.7040706@redhat.com>

On 3/04/2009 12:27 AM, psmith wrote:
> i'm going to try and work through it this evening but if i get no joy  
> i'll just wait for F11 final and go contribute to other projects that 
> check there media before releasing it! i get that it's beta, but how 
> are you supposed to help squash bugs if the bloody distro wont even 
> install!
>

Followed by many many tests, my solution on my spare laptop:

press [Esc] on grub menu > type 'linux acpi=off' and [Enter]

That's it and I went into GUI installation screen.

- kaio



From giallu at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 13:46:09 2009
From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 15:46:09 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904080606r7cb60342i841dcff7f69c451@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904080606r7cb60342i841dcff7f69c451@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d5ad21470904080646x25e3d8a5rc445c6291193a054@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> mono-2.4-13.1.fc11
>> ------------------
>> * Mon Apr 06 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> - 2.4-13.1
>> - Remove ppc support
>> - moonlight parts are now in their own subpackage
>>
>> * Thu Apr 02 2009 Xavier Lamien <lxtnow at gmail.com> - 2.4-13
>> - Enable moonlight support.
>
> Is moonlight still not on the Fedora Forbidden list?
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems#Moonlight
>
> Or has the circumstances changed and the wiki not been updated?

AFAIK it is still forbidden, and in fact it is entering rpmfusion, but
it needed a mono build with that flag active.


-- 
Gianluca Sforna

http://morefedora.blogspot.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  8 13:46:14 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:46:14 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>

David wrote:
> On 4/7/2009 4:31 PM, Paul Wouters wrote:
>
>   
>> My first fedora 11 beta run-in with not having dontzap set to false.
>>     
>
>   
>> I have a dual twin setup. This already requires an xorg.conf file,
>> because in the no-config running, xorg decides you want to only use
>> one of the two screens it finds. I don't know why, I consider it a bug.
>>     
>
>   
>> I configure it to have dual screen. When I login, my window manager dies
>> on me. My gnome panel only works in my left screen, but anything I
>> select pops up on the right screen, out of focus. I can move my mouse
>> into the other screen but I cannot get any focus. So I cannot get to a
>> terminal or any other application.
>>     
>
>   
>> So I ctrl-alt-f2. Now my left monitor goes into standby mode and my
>> right monitor just shows a blinking cursor. The same for all VC's except
>> alt-f7 which brings me back to my broken X session.
>>     
>
>   
>> I had to login via ssh to fix my machine, because I could not restart X.
>> Indeed, i did not have sysrq enabled yet, that's disabled per default it
>> seems.
>>     
>
>   
>> +1 for reverting to the old behaviour of having ctrl-alt-backspace kill
>> the current X session.
>>     
>
>
> Sorry Paul. But it does not look like, from what I read here, that there
> will be a vote on this. It appears that you, and all others, have two options.
>
> 1: Live with it as default 'off'.
>
> 2: Change it to 'on' to suit yourself.
>
> Great thing about Linux. You can do pretty much just as you wish.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
>   
the vote was taken in secret by the xorg folks a while ago, real 
community spirit in action!

phil



From a.badger at GMAIL.COM  Wed Apr  8 13:37:30 2009
From: a.badger at GMAIL.COM (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 06:37:30 -0700
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>

Fernando Nasser wrote:
> That is correct.  All the packages that install things in this directory must own it so it will only go away when the last of them is uninstalled.
> 
> If you find a package that own a file in that directory and does not own it, then you should indeed file a bug for a missing ownership.
> 

... or the package has a dependency on one of those packages (usually
hicolor-icon-theme).  Either is acceptable practice.

-Toshio

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From hedayat at grad.com  Wed Apr  8 14:24:31 2009
From: hedayat at grad.com (Hedayat Vatankhah)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:54:31 +0430
Subject: Speech recognition
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0903251946s59ab8e56q31e58f28dbc36f23@mail.gmail.com>
References: <870180fe0903251544h1bf98930h17a037a5225338ec@mail.gmail.com>	<20090326001722.GB98926@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<870180fe0903251946s59ab8e56q31e58f28dbc36f23@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DCB39F.6000904@grad.com>

Hi all,


/*Jerry James <loganjerry at gmail.com>*/ wrote on ??/??/?? 07:16:47:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Olivier Galibert <galibert at pobox.com> wrote:
>   
>> For speech recognition, software is only part of the problem and,
>> fundamentally, the easiest one (take the algorithms, implement them,
>> optimize/debug at will). ?The real problem is the data needed to build
>> the models to feed the algorithms. ?There isn't as far as I know any
>> reasonable set of corpus available under an open source license usable
>> to build a decent speech recognizer. ?Which makes open source speech
>> recognition something not doable yet.
>>     
>
> There are some small databases available [1], although admittedly too
> small for accurate general purpose use.  There are some models
> available [2], built from databases which are not themselves
> redistributable.  There are also a number of model-building tools
> available [3-5], which may be sufficient for small command-and-control
> tasks.
>
> But you are right.  For general-purpose voice recognition, we don't
> have the data we need.  Still, I think it may be worth putting the
> software in place so that those who wish to purchase licenses to
> commercial data have everything else they need, and to encourage the
> production of better quality free data [6].
>   
I also think that making the software available has a considerable 
effect in encouraging people to generate free data. When speech 
recognition software is available, community will be encouraged to 
generate data to make it more robust. But people will not generate 
required data when they can use it already!

I have not much free time, but I'm interested to help you in this 
direction if I can. :)

Good luck,
Hedayat
> References:
> [1] http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/databases/
> [2] http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/sphinx/models/
> [3] http://www.speech.sri.com/projects/srilm/
> [4] http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/html/download.php#SphinxTrain
> [5] http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/html/download.php/#cmulclmtk
> [6] http://www.voxforge.org/
>   
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From maxamillion at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 14:37:31 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:37:31 -0500
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <49DCAF64.7040706@redhat.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>
	<f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com> <49D41060.50907@redhat.com>
	<49D4CB60.5060009@googlemail.com> <49DCAF64.7040706@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904080737t2268525l34507882b49ee0a5@mail.gmail.com>

I should have sent out an update on this, just didn't think about it.

Kevin Fenzi composed an unofficial incremental image that I've been
fortunate enough to get a hold of and do some testing, the issues have
actually already been fixed in rawhide. I composed a new unofficial
incremental image myself yesterday, it is available here:
http://www.shsu.edu/~ajm023/fedora-xfce-20090407.iso

sha1sum fedora-xfce-20090407.iso
a9a20f943e7dfa22300478cde1cf86e6ca9dcef5  fedora-xfce-20090407.iso

My image is *completely* unofficial but was put together using the
xfce spin kickstart from the git repository. Anyone who would like to
download it for testing is welcome to, I'll probably leave it up for
download for at least a week.

-Adam

-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 14:12:02 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 15:12:02 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <29fee02b0904080649r2f9e871bu20e1fd9895206335@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904080606r7cb60342i841dcff7f69c451@mail.gmail.com>
	<29fee02b0904080649r2f9e871bu20e1fd9895206335@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904080712n26a6888do5761ccd89cf4a94e@mail.gmail.com>

>> Is moonlight still not on the Fedora Forbidden list?
> Yes.
>
>> Or has the circumstances changed and the wiki not been updated?
>
> No. Please read:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492048

To me comment 8 in that bug reads as if all of moonlight is in the
subpackage, not just the hooks for it.

Peter



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 14:11:59 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 10:11:59 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Rawhide Report wrote:
>
> Broken deps for ppc
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ? ? ? ?avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
[cut]
> ? ? ? ?taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
> ? ? ? ?tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
> ? ? ? ?tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
> ? ? ? ?themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
> ? ? ? ?webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>


Why is there a huge number of broken mono dependencies, only in ppc.
Did we miss something?

Orcan



From hedayat at grad.com  Wed Apr  8 14:39:34 2009
From: hedayat at grad.com (Hedayat Vatankhah)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:09:34 +0430
Subject: Please help me with this build problem with dist-f10
Message-ID: <49DCB726.9050504@grad.com>

Hi all,
I built this package successfully in rawhide, but in Fedora 10 it fails. 
Would you please help me with this error:
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1282950&name=build.log

It seems to me that there is something wrong with Fedora 10's libtool. 
The previous version of this package successfully compiled on Fedora 10, 
and I don't expect any changes in the new package in these areas!

Thanks in advance,
Hedayat



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 14:43:30 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 15:43:30 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Rawhide Report wrote:
>>
>> Broken deps for ppc
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> ? ? ? ?avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
> [cut]
>> ? ? ? ?taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
>> ? ? ? ?tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
>> ? ? ? ?tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
>> ? ? ? ?themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
>> ? ? ? ?webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>>
>
>
> Why is there a huge number of broken mono dependencies, only in ppc.
> Did we miss something?

Read further up the mail where is states that mono on ppc has been disabled.

Peter



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 14:46:17 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 10:46:17 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904080746k6b5637c1kf92747dbfa528799@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Peter Robinson wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Rawhide Report wrote:
>>>
>>> Broken deps for ppc
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> ? ? ? ?avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>> [cut]
>>> ? ? ? ?taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
>>> ? ? ? ?tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
>>> ? ? ? ?tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
>>> ? ? ? ?themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
>>> ? ? ? ?webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>>>
>>
>>
>> Why is there a huge number of broken mono dependencies, only in ppc.
>> Did we miss something?
>
> Read further up the mail where is states that mono on ppc has been disabled.
>
> Peter
>

Ah, I see. Thanks. Should all those packages be rebuilt with
ExcludeArch: ppc then?

Orcan



From cdahlin at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 14:52:51 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:52:51 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49DCBA43.5060201@redhat.com>

psmith wrote:
> the vote was taken in secret by the xorg folks a while ago, real
> community spirit in action!
> 
> phil
> 

So we can either write a new graphics server or let them get away with it. Would /you/ like to write a knew graphics server?

The term is meritocracy, not democracy. Someone's mistakes are going to show up in the product no matter what. It tends to work out for the best if its the mistakes of people who usually know what they're doing.

--CJD



From fedora at camperquake.de  Wed Apr  8 14:54:45 2009
From: fedora at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 16:54:45 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239197286.12485.18.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<grgp1u$fb2$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090408063728.GA5038@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>
	<49DC4F72.9010905@redhat.com>
	<1239197286.12485.18.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090408165445.462d35b1@dhcp03.addix.net>

Hi.

On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:28:06 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:

> Yes, broken hardware.  There's a 2048 pixel limit we're not letting
> you exceed by default because 3d breaks if you do.

Is there a way to change this on the fly? E.g. could I press a "I don't
care"-button in gnome-display-settings, and get the larger screen size?
(bonus points for enabling 3D again when the virtual size shrinks below
2kx2k again)



From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 15:02:17 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:02:17 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090408165445.462d35b1@dhcp03.addix.net>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<grgp1u$fb2$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090408063728.GA5038@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>
	<49DC4F72.9010905@redhat.com>
	<1239197286.12485.18.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<20090408165445.462d35b1@dhcp03.addix.net>
Message-ID: <1239202937.12485.46.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 16:54 +0200, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:28:06 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Yes, broken hardware.  There's a 2048 pixel limit we're not letting
> > you exceed by default because 3d breaks if you do.
> 
> Is there a way to change this on the fly? E.g. could I press a "I don't
> care"-button in gnome-display-settings, and get the larger screen size?
> (bonus points for enabling 3D again when the virtual size shrinks below
> 2kx2k again)

I was talking this over with Kristian actually.  Since we allocate the
front buffer dynamically for KMS, we could probably let the maximum
virtual size be 4k or so (which I think really is the 2d limit).  In
principle, well-behaved GL apps are supposed to check the
GL_MAX_VIEWPORT_DIMS limit, since that's the maximum window size that's
expected to work.  So if compiz were well-behaved, it would refuse to
run if the root window were larger than that.

Whether compiz actually _does_ that is another question, of course.  But
I think changing the max virtual to 4k for intel 915 and 945 might be a
less bad set of tradeoffs.

- ajax
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From dgboles at comcast.net  Wed Apr  8 14:37:50 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:37:50 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net>

On 4/8/2009 2:39 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> David wrote:
>> Sorry Paul. But it does not look like, from what I read here, that there
>> will be a vote on this.

> And that's exactly what we're complaining about.

> It looks very clear to me that the majority either wants Ctrl+Alt+BkSp
> enabled by default or doesn't care either way. Only very few people have
> ever accidentally triggered it.


And that I can understand. I'm one of the 'don't care' either way people.
BTW. But I think that you need to go directly to the Xorg devs. Fedora has
always, as far as I know, pretty much followed what upstream provides.

Said more simply? This discussion is on the wrong list. You're talking to
the wrong people. Actually it looks more like you are talking to yourselves.
 :-P


-- 


  David



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  8 15:06:54 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:06:54 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCBA43.5060201@redhat.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
	<49DCBA43.5060201@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DCBD8E.5000400@googlemail.com>

Casey Dahlin wrote:
> psmith wrote:
>   
>> the vote was taken in secret by the xorg folks a while ago, real
>> community spirit in action!
>>
>> phil
>>
>>     
>
> So we can either write a new graphics server or let them get away with it. Would /you/ like to write a knew graphics server?
>
> The term is meritocracy, not democracy. Someone's mistakes are going to show up in the product no matter what. It tends to work out for the best if its the mistakes of people who usually know what they're doing.
>
> --CJD
>
>   
but why the need for a *secret *vote? why not do it in the open so all 
of the x users can go look at the logs and at least see their reasoning 
behind this change that effects every x user? 

better still the fedora 'community' can revert the upstream change, it 
has been done plenty of times before and i don't see why this should be 
different?

as for writing a new gfx server, well no but i will compile x with the 
standard behaviour set regardless

phil



From mike at cchtml.com  Wed Apr  8 15:08:11 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:08:11 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239202937.12485.46.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>	<grgp1u$fb2$1@ger.gmane.org>	<20090408063728.GA5038@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>	<49DC4F72.9010905@redhat.com>	<1239197286.12485.18.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<20090408165445.462d35b1@dhcp03.addix.net>
	<1239202937.12485.46.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DCBDDB.3060009@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
From: Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/08/2009 10:02 AM

> 
> I was talking this over with Kristian actually.  Since we allocate the
> front buffer dynamically for KMS, we could probably let the maximum
> virtual size be 4k or so (which I think really is the 2d limit).  In
> principle, well-behaved GL apps are supposed to check the
> GL_MAX_VIEWPORT_DIMS limit, since that's the maximum window size that's
> expected to work.  So if compiz were well-behaved, it would refuse to
> run if the root window were larger than that.
> 
> Whether compiz actually _does_ that is another question, of course.  But
> I think changing the max virtual to 4k for intel 915 and 945 might be a
> less bad set of tradeoffs.

I remember when I used an ATI card (and binary fglrx driver) that had a 
2kx2k OpenGL limit, compiz only drew a 2048 wide composited window on my 
2560x1024 dual-monitor system. This was back in the X.org 7.0/7.1 days. 
I had a nice white gap on half of the right monitor where it didn't draw.



From bochecha at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr  8 14:44:18 2009
From: bochecha at fedoraproject.org (Mathieu Bridon (bochecha))
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 16:44:18 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d319b780904080744l7d8fcfecmcb854181f2492a33@mail.gmail.com>

> Why is there a huge number of broken mono dependencies, only in ppc.
> Did we miss something?

>From the same Rawhide status email:

mono-2.4-13.1.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> - 2.4-13.1
- Remove ppc support
- moonlight parts are now in their own subpackage


----------

Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)



From mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp  Wed Apr  8 15:12:12 2009
From: mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Mamoru Tasaka)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 00:12:12 +0900
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>

Peter Robinson wrote, at 04/08/2009 11:43 PM +9:00:
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Rawhide Report wrote:
>>> Broken deps for ppc
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>        avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>> [cut]
>>>        taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
>>>        tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
>>>        tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
>>>        themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
>>>        webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>>>
>>
>> Why is there a huge number of broken mono dependencies, only in ppc.
>> Did we miss something?
> 
> Read further up the mail where is states that mono on ppc has been disabled.
> 
> Peter

But first of all, such change (i.e. disabling ppc support on mono package)
must not be done at this stage where F-11 final freeze comes very soon (4/14).
If it cannot be done to fix the latest mono package to support ppc again, 
the lastest mono package must be untagged.

Regards,
Mamoru



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 15:16:01 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 16:16:01 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>

>>>> Broken deps for ppc
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ? ? ? avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>>>
>>> [cut]
>>>>
>>>> ? ? ? taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) =
>>>> 0:2.0.0.0
>>>> ? ? ? tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
>>>> ? ? ? tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
>>>> ? ? ? themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
>>>> ? ? ? webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why is there a huge number of broken mono dependencies, only in ppc.
>>> Did we miss something?
>>
>> Read further up the mail where is states that mono on ppc has been
>> disabled.
>>
>> Peter
>
> But first of all, such change (i.e. disabling ppc support on mono package)
> must not be done at this stage where F-11 final freeze comes very soon
> (4/14).
> If it cannot be done to fix the latest mono package to support ppc again,
> the lastest mono package must be untagged.

There has been a number of discussions about this on fedora-devel over
the last week or so, check the archives for details.

Peter



From mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp  Wed Apr  8 15:22:45 2009
From: mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Mamoru Tasaka)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 00:22:45 +0900
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DCC145.1010708@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>

Peter Robinson wrote, at 04/09/2009 12:16 AM +9:00:
>>>>> Broken deps for ppc
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>       avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>>>> [cut]
>>>>>       taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) =
>>>>> 0:2.0.0.0
>>>>>       tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
>>>>>       tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
>>>>>       themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
>>>>>       webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>>>>>
>>>> Why is there a huge number of broken mono dependencies, only in ppc.
>>>> Did we miss something?
>>> Read further up the mail where is states that mono on ppc has been
>>> disabled.
>>>
>>> Peter
>> But first of all, such change (i.e. disabling ppc support on mono package)
>> must not be done at this stage where F-11 final freeze comes very soon
>> (4/14).
>> If it cannot be done to fix the latest mono package to support ppc again,
>> the lastest mono package must be untagged.
> 
> There has been a number of discussions about this on fedora-devel over
> the last week or so, check the archives for details.

Where?
Anyway "the last week" is too late. Such change cannot be allowed for F-11
release.

Mamoru



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr  8 15:25:48 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:25:48 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>

David wrote:

> Said more simply? This discussion is on the wrong list. You're talking to
> the wrong people. Actually it looks more like you are talking to yourselves.
Not quite: Setting up a distro and preparing packages to include them 
into a distro is a bit more than blindly following "upstreams".

It also means package maintainers to be "listening" to their 
"user-base", to communicate their user-base's concerns upstream and to 
deviate from upstream when necessary.





From dgboles at comcast.net  Wed Apr  8 15:26:02 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:26:02 -0400
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DCACCE.2000505@googlemail.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>	<49DBB051.4080200@comcast.net>	<49DBB514.2030206@googlemail.com>	<49DBD77E.8010604@comcast.net>
	<49DBD952.3030909@comcast.net> <49DCACCE.2000505@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49DCC20A.9030702@comcast.net>

On 4/8/2009 9:55 AM, psmith wrote:
> David wrote:

>> Then I guess that you will have to compile your own Xorg with the switch
>> turned on?  :-)

>> Seriously. From what I read 'they' are trying to make Xorg better able to
>> handle common things without a conf file. But Xorg still does use a conf
>> file if it is exists. In other words? The dontzap that you set stays. As
>> well as the nonfree drivers that some use and need the conf file.

>> Relax man. You'll live longer.  8-)   

> you know it may seem from my messages that i'm raging about this but
> it's not the case, and if you can read emotions from typed text you are
> a special individual ;)


:-)  Why thank you. I like to think that I am special.


> i am a very chilled i'm my life and in fact i have already mentioned
> that i will compile x with the years old standards set, heck i may even
> put up a repo for others who wont like this change to use (and trust me
> when i say that as more and more distro's implement this new x there
> will be lots of those people) but i still say that fedora should take
> the lead and revert this stupid change as most who have posted on this
> in the fedora lists are against it, they have diverted from upstream on
> many different things and i don't see why this should be different, and
> then let those who want this change regress to using an xorg.conf


Since this is the development list can I take it that you run a Rawhide
setup or do you run a 'release' setup? I ask because trying to keep up with
Xorg in Rawhide would be a real chore. That is why I suggested the 'dont
zap' section in Xorg.

As far as 'this' Xorg version? I can't say for *all* distributions but *all*
of the ones that I am familiar, the major ones,  have switched to this version.

I now wonder just what the thread will look like when someone notices that
they turned of the 'blinking' in the terminal cursor?  :-p
-- 


  David



From kevin at scrye.com  Wed Apr  8 15:35:59 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:35:59 -0600
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904080737t2268525l34507882b49ee0a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>
	<f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com> <49D41060.50907@redhat.com>
	<49D4CB60.5060009@googlemail.com> <49DCAF64.7040706@redhat.com>
	<f12087800904080737t2268525l34507882b49ee0a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090408093559.63e1dd7e@ohm.scrye.com>

On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:37:31 -0500
Adam Miller <maxamillion at gmail.com> wrote:

> I should have sent out an update on this, just didn't think about it.
> 
> Kevin Fenzi composed an unofficial incremental image that I've been
> fortunate enough to get a hold of and do some testing, the issues have
> actually already been fixed in rawhide. I composed a new unofficial
> incremental image myself yesterday, it is available here:
> http://www.shsu.edu/~ajm023/fedora-xfce-20090407.iso
> 
> sha1sum fedora-xfce-20090407.iso
> a9a20f943e7dfa22300478cde1cf86e6ca9dcef5  fedora-xfce-20090407.iso
> 
> My image is *completely* unofficial but was put together using the
> xfce spin kickstart from the git repository. Anyone who would like to
> download it for testing is welcome to, I'll probably leave it up for
> download for at least a week.

Yeah, I meant to post here too, but I guess i only posted on the thread
on test-list. ;( (The dangers of multiple lists having the same
discussion). 

http://mirrors.tummy.com/pub/tmp/Fedora-xfce-20090404-i686.iso

Is my unoffical compose using the official git kickstart. 

I have been unable to figure out what went wrong with the i686 beta. ;( 
I have asked rel-eng to do a snapshot this week and I will be testing
that as soon as it exists. 

> 
> -Adam
> 

kevin
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From maxamillion at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 15:39:10 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 10:39:10 -0500
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <20090408093559.63e1dd7e@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>
	<f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com> <49D41060.50907@redhat.com>
	<49D4CB60.5060009@googlemail.com> <49DCAF64.7040706@redhat.com>
	<f12087800904080737t2268525l34507882b49ee0a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090408093559.63e1dd7e@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904080839k11f8ceefr12df6d280df2ba0a@mail.gmail.com>

wow ... forgot to tag an arch, mine's 32-bit.
-Adam

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin at scrye.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:37:31 -0500
> Adam Miller <maxamillion at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I should have sent out an update on this, just didn't think about it.
>>
>> Kevin Fenzi composed an unofficial incremental image that I've been
>> fortunate enough to get a hold of and do some testing, the issues have
>> actually already been fixed in rawhide. I composed a new unofficial
>> incremental image myself yesterday, it is available here:
>> http://www.shsu.edu/~ajm023/fedora-xfce-20090407.iso
>>
>> sha1sum fedora-xfce-20090407.iso
>> a9a20f943e7dfa22300478cde1cf86e6ca9dcef5 ?fedora-xfce-20090407.iso
>>
>> My image is *completely* unofficial but was put together using the
>> xfce spin kickstart from the git repository. Anyone who would like to
>> download it for testing is welcome to, I'll probably leave it up for
>> download for at least a week.
>
> Yeah, I meant to post here too, but I guess i only posted on the thread
> on test-list. ;( (The dangers of multiple lists having the same
> discussion).
>
> http://mirrors.tummy.com/pub/tmp/Fedora-xfce-20090404-i686.iso
>
> Is my unoffical compose using the official git kickstart.
>
> I have been unable to figure out what went wrong with the i686 beta. ;(
> I have asked rel-eng to do a snapshot this week and I will be testing
> that as soon as it exists.
>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>
> kevin
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From a.badger at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 15:36:01 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:36:01 -0700
Subject: python-paver upgrade
In-Reply-To: <49C9913C.8090405@gmail.com>
References: <49C9913C.8090405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DCC461.3090506@gmail.com>

Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> python-paver is a program and library to make building and installing
> python modules easy.  We currently have 0.8 in F9, F10, and EPEL.  1.0
> is built for rawhide.  0.8 and 1.0 are API incompatible.  I'm going to
> update to the 1.0 version in the stable releases after it proves itself
> in rawhide due to two things:
> 
> 1) There's a number of bugs in 0.8 that won't be fixed because 1.x is
> where work is being done.
> 2) It's a mess to try to support both paver-1.0 and paver-0.8 in one
> pavement.py file.  My efforts to do so show that it's not possible to
> have all the functionality of 1.0 in 0.8.
> 
> If any project we're packaging is using paver to build and cannot
> upgrade to 1.0, let me know so I can either help with porting the
> buildscripts or start the review process on a python-paver0.8 compat
> package.
> 
paver-1.0 packages for F9/10 and EPEL5 have now been built and submitted
to the testing repos.  Once again, if you need paver-0.8, please let me
know so we can work on packaging and reviewing a compat package.

-Toshio

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From dgboles at comcast.net  Wed Apr  8 15:47:30 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:47:30 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net>
	<49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net>

On 4/8/2009 11:25 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> David wrote:

>> Said more simply? This discussion is on the wrong list. You're talking to
>> the wrong people. Actually it looks more like you are talking to
>> yourselves.
> Not quite: Setting up a distro and preparing packages to include them
> into a distro is a bit more than blindly following "upstreams".

> It also means package maintainers to be "listening" to their
> "user-base", to communicate their user-base's concerns upstream and to
> deviate from upstream when necessary.


This discussion has me thinking about the last time I used C-A-B. And quite
honestly I can't recall the last time. Certainly not recently.

I do understand that some users have problems and that some users need this.
However the way I see it is that the change has been made and will not be
reverting.

Which means one of two things.

Learn to live with the change. Or you change it back yourself. Seems simple
enough. One little change. I change many things from the defaults.



-- 


  David



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 15:51:50 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:51:50 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Peter Robinson wrote:
>>>>> Broken deps for ppc
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ? ? ? avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>>>>
>>>> [cut]
>>>>>
>>>>> ? ? ? taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) =
>>>>> 0:2.0.0.0
>>>>> ? ? ? tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
>>>>> ? ? ? tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
>>>>> ? ? ? themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
>>>>> ? ? ? webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why is there a huge number of broken mono dependencies, only in ppc.
>>>> Did we miss something?
>>>
>>> Read further up the mail where is states that mono on ppc has been
>>> disabled.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>
>> But first of all, such change (i.e. disabling ppc support on mono package)
>> must not be done at this stage where F-11 final freeze comes very soon
>> (4/14).
>> If it cannot be done to fix the latest mono package to support ppc again,
>> the lastest mono package must be untagged.
>
> There has been a number of discussions about this on fedora-devel over
> the last week or so, check the archives for details.
>

What I don't understand is, shouldn't such a change that affects
dozens of packages go through FESCo? If it did, why did we not see an
announcement with BIG CAPITAL LETTERS with cream on top?

Orcan



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr  8 16:03:15 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:03:15 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239202937.12485.46.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<grgp1u$fb2$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090408063728.GA5038@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>
	<49DC4F72.9010905@redhat.com>
	<1239197286.12485.18.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<20090408165445.462d35b1@dhcp03.addix.net>
	<1239202937.12485.46.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239206595.12468.38.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 11:02 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 16:54 +0200, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
> > Hi.
> > 
> > On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:28:06 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> > 
> > > Yes, broken hardware.  There's a 2048 pixel limit we're not letting
> > > you exceed by default because 3d breaks if you do.
> > 
> > Is there a way to change this on the fly? E.g. could I press a "I don't
> > care"-button in gnome-display-settings, and get the larger screen size?
> > (bonus points for enabling 3D again when the virtual size shrinks below
> > 2kx2k again)
> 
> I was talking this over with Kristian actually.  Since we allocate the
> front buffer dynamically for KMS, we could probably let the maximum
> virtual size be 4k or so (which I think really is the 2d limit).  In
> principle, well-behaved GL apps are supposed to check the
> GL_MAX_VIEWPORT_DIMS limit, since that's the maximum window size that's
> expected to work.  So if compiz were well-behaved, it would refuse to
> run if the root window were larger than that.
> 
> Whether compiz actually _does_ that is another question, of course.  But
> I think changing the max virtual to 4k for intel 915 and 945 might be a
> less bad set of tradeoffs.

... Or just hack some code to arrange the displays vertically in VRAM
and fake horizontal somehow. It used to be (Does that still work?) you
could run multi-head on separate video cards, same idea. If anything
pretend the two heads are completely separate framebuffers.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr  8 16:25:47 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:25:47 -0500
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DC38BF.5080003@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>
	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>
	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC38BF.5080003@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1239207947.12468.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 11:10 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Callum Lerwick wrote:
> 
> > Hey I have a genius idea. ENABLE ctl-alt-bs by default, and DISABLE it
> > as part of the user login process. Are we expecting people to be using
> > Emacs at the GDM login screen?
> 
> Please stop rehashing the same old discussions in this thread as well.
> No need for the emacs conspiracy theory all over again.

Its not the same old discussion, its an entirely new suggestion. I
mention emacs out of sarcasm, and perhaps a metaphor. Lighten up. It's
still a serious suggestion. Notice how *I* have been trying to offer
alternatives amenable to both sides, rather than just whining about
reverting the change.

There have been THREE realistic suggestions for how to retain the
functionality without nuking the functionality entirely, while still
recognizing that ctl-alt-bs IS possible to accidentally hit.

1) Make the key combo more obscure. ctl-alt-lshift-rshift-bs

2) The SUSE patch, require hitting it twice

3) Enable by default, disable by default once in a user session.

All three are independent, and all three can be implemented if you think
the X server hasn't been nerfed enough yet.
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From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr  8 16:29:40 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:29:40 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net>	<49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>
	<49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de>

David wrote:
> On 4/8/2009 11:25 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> David wrote:
> 
>>> Said more simply? This discussion is on the wrong list. You're talking to
>>> the wrong people. Actually it looks more like you are talking to
>>> yourselves.
>> Not quite: Setting up a distro and preparing packages to include them
>> into a distro is a bit more than blindly following "upstreams".
> 
>> It also means package maintainers to be "listening" to their
>> "user-base", to communicate their user-base's concerns upstream and to
>> deviate from upstream when necessary.
> 
> 
> This discussion has me thinking about the last time I used C-A-B. And quite
> honestly I can't recall the last time. Certainly not recently.
As far as I am concerned:
- Ca. 4 weeks ago, when trying to get my netbook working with an 
external monitor
- Today, when something, I don't know, crashed X and left me with an 
entirely black screen.


> I do understand that some users have problems and that some users need this.
> However the way I see it is that the change has been made and will not be
> reverting.
> 
> Which means one of two things.
> 
> Learn to live with the change. Or you change it back yourself.
Or ...
- exchange upstream
- exchange the fedora packager
- switch the distro.
- fork the distro (This change alone is easy to patch).

I think it would be appropriate to have FESCo interfere and let them 
vote on this matter.

 > Seems simple
> enough. One little change. I change many things from the defaults.
With each fedora release, I increasing change more. I am seriously 
asking myself why I am using a distro which is increasingly divering 
from my needs, and which I experience to be increasingly less usable 
wrt. certain aspects.






From maxamillion at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 16:43:03 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:43:03 -0500
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904080943j73864a37tcfaca902abe7119d@mail.gmail.com>

Same reason the Xorg change wasn't, because there's no reason to
magnify every change that X person considers important, as Y person
might not consider that a big deal. We'd end up with all caps, all
bold docs ... and that would be annoying.

-Adam

-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
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From james at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr  8 16:44:58 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 12:44:58 -0400
Subject: yum downgrade functionality now live in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239209098.15411.25.camel@code.and.org>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 12:54 +0000, Rawhide Report wrote:
> yum-3.2.22-2.fc11
> -----------------
> * Tue Apr 07 2009 Seth Vidal <skvidal at fedoraproject.org> - 3.2.22-2
> - yum-HEAD minus the yumdb patches

 Given so many of you have asked for this, I figured I'd highlight that
the above package includes the downgrade feature. So you can do:

yum downgrade blah

...and blah will be "downgraded" to the highest version of blah that is
older than the version installed. Like upgrade you can also specify a
specific version to downgrade to.
 Note that this will be most useful for rawhide users when installing
test packages from koji static repos. etc. ... because then an older
version will still be available in rawhide. Whereas if you upgrade to
what is in rawhide there is nothing older available to downgrade to.

 Also note that this is basic functionality atm. ... so for instance the
depsolver doesn't understand how to do dependency downgrades yet (so you
might have to specify a bunch of stuff on the cmd line).

-- 
James Antill - james at fedoraproject.org
"I'd just like to see a realistic approach to updates via
 packages." -- Les Mikesell



From pemboa at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 16:44:47 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:44:47 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net> <49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>
	<49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net> <49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904080944g2edaf460t8dda311ccf481b65@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:
> David wrote:
>> enough. One little change. I change many things from the defaults.
>
> With each fedora release, I increasing change more. I am seriously asking
> myself why I am using a distro which is increasingly divering from my needs,
> and which I experience to be increasingly less usable wrt. certain aspects.

My list of post install things to do is also growing. Partly due to
the fact that I use the LiveCD for install now, which at least offsets
some of the increasing post install setup time.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From gnomeuser at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 16:49:13 2009
From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:49:13 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/8 Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com>

> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Peter Robinson wrote:
> >>>>> Broken deps for ppc
> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>       avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) =
> 0:1.0.5000.0
> >>>>
> >>>> [cut]
> >>>>>
> >>>>>       taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) =
> >>>>> 0:2.0.0.0
> >>>>>       tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
> >>>>>       tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
> >>>>>       themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
> >>>>>       webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) =
> 0:1.0.5000.0
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Why is there a huge number of broken mono dependencies, only in ppc.
> >>>> Did we miss something?
> >>>
> >>> Read further up the mail where is states that mono on ppc has been
> >>> disabled.
> >>>
> >>> Peter
> >>
> >> But first of all, such change (i.e. disabling ppc support on mono
> package)
> >> must not be done at this stage where F-11 final freeze comes very soon
> >> (4/14).
> >> If it cannot be done to fix the latest mono package to support ppc
> again,
> >> the lastest mono package must be untagged.
> >
> > There has been a number of discussions about this on fedora-devel over
> > the last week or so, check the archives for details.
> >
>
> What I don't understand is, shouldn't such a change that affects
> dozens of packages go through FESCo? If it did, why did we not see an
> announcement with BIG CAPITAL LETTERS with cream on top?
>

Not a FESco decision by a mile, it is a bug... patches welcome as always.
You also were warned on -devel, several times in fact that we had this
problem. _Nobody_ with ppc skills volunteered to help actually fix the
problem so now it's disabled till the ppc arch team helps out with a
solution. Nobody on the Mono SIG has the hardware to test this nor the in
depth knowledge about the architecture to fix it. It has been reported to
upstream as well so hopefully we will see this situation mended soon.

- David
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From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 16:49:22 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 12:49:22 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904080943j73864a37tcfaca902abe7119d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904080943j73864a37tcfaca902abe7119d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904080949h50978e0cvceb9a7f332347c07@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Adam Miller  wrote:
> Same reason the Xorg change wasn't, because there's no reason to
> magnify every change that X person considers important, as Y person
> might not consider that a big deal. We'd end up with all caps, all
> bold docs ... and that would be annoying.
>

X person? Adam, we're talking about ~40-50 packages here.
Anyway, what has been done is done. I don't think you guys will
consider reverting it.

Orcan



From dgboles at comcast.net  Wed Apr  8 16:50:16 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 12:50:16 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net>	<49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>	<49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net>
	<49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <49DCD5C8.6000308@comcast.net>

On 4/8/2009 12:29 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> David wrote:
>> On 4/8/2009 11:25 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>> David wrote:

>>>> Said more simply? This discussion is on the wrong list. You're
>>>> talking to
>>>> the wrong people. Actually it looks more like you are talking to
>>>> yourselves.
>>> Not quite: Setting up a distro and preparing packages to include them
>>> into a distro is a bit more than blindly following "upstreams".

>>> It also means package maintainers to be "listening" to their
>>> "user-base", to communicate their user-base's concerns upstream and to
>>> deviate from upstream when necessary.


>> This discussion has me thinking about the last time I used C-A-B. And
>> quite
>> honestly I can't recall the last time. Certainly not recently.
> As far as I am concerned:
> - Ca. 4 weeks ago, when trying to get my netbook working with an
> external monitor
> - Today, when something, I don't know, crashed X and left me with an
> entirely black screen.


>> I do understand that some users have problems and that some users need
>> this.
>> However the way I see it is that the change has been made and will not be
>> reverting.

>> Which means one of two things.

>> Learn to live with the change. Or you change it back yourself.
> Or ...
> - exchange upstream
> - exchange the fedora packager
> - switch the distro.
> - fork the distro (This change alone is easy to patch).

> I think it would be appropriate to have FESCo interfere and let them
> vote on this matter.

>> Seems simple
>> enough. One little change. I change many things from the defaults.
> With each fedora release, I increasing change more. I am seriously
> asking myself why I am using a distro which is increasingly divering
> from my needs, and which I experience to be increasingly less usable
> wrt. certain aspects.


"switch the distro" won't work. All are going this way.

So your, and the others, options, are the same as when this started. Change
it back yourself or live with it the way that it is now. A sub-option, if
you want to call it an option, is to keep complaining. But you will still
have to deal with one of the others.

I am sorry that you are unhappy but I am finished with this thread.

Bye

-- 


  David



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 16:53:33 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 12:53:33 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:49 PM, David Nielsen wrote:
>
>
> 2009/4/8 Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Peter Robinson wrote:
>> >>>>> Broken deps for ppc
>> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>> ? ? ? avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) =
>> >>>>> 0:1.0.5000.0
>> >>>>
>> >>>> [cut]
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ? ? ? taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) =
>> >>>>> 0:2.0.0.0
>> >>>>> ? ? ? tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
>> >>>>> ? ? ? tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
>> >>>>> ? ? ? themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
>> >>>>> ? ? ? webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) =
>> >>>>> 0:1.0.5000.0
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Why is there a huge number of broken mono dependencies, only in ppc.
>> >>>> Did we miss something?
>> >>>
>> >>> Read further up the mail where is states that mono on ppc has been
>> >>> disabled.
>> >>>
>> >>> Peter
>> >>
>> >> But first of all, such change (i.e. disabling ppc support on mono
>> >> package)
>> >> must not be done at this stage where F-11 final freeze comes very soon
>> >> (4/14).
>> >> If it cannot be done to fix the latest mono package to support ppc
>> >> again,
>> >> the lastest mono package must be untagged.
>> >
>> > There has been a number of discussions about this on fedora-devel over
>> > the last week or so, check the archives for details.
>> >
>>
>> What I don't understand is, shouldn't such a change that affects
>> dozens of packages go through FESCo? If it did, why did we not see an
>> announcement with BIG CAPITAL LETTERS with cream on top?
>
> Not a FESco decision by a mile, it is a bug... patches welcome as always.
> You also were warned on -devel, several times in fact that we had this
> problem. _Nobody_ with ppc skills volunteered to help actually fix the
> problem so now it's disabled till the ppc arch team helps out with a
> solution. Nobody on the Mono SIG has the hardware to test this nor the in
> depth knowledge about the architecture to fix it. It has been reported to
> upstream as well so hopefully we will see this situation mended soon.
>
> - David
>
>
>

Ah... I give up. You guys are right, by doing this update which breaks
many packages in an architecture. I'm wrong.
Sorry,

Orcan



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr  8 16:58:38 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:58:38 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <1239177472.12468.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>
	<grgke9$3u2$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<8278b1b0904071545k1b53c291p716530999a8aeedc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239177472.12468.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239209919.12468.59.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 02:57 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> ... Or spend your time and energy on something useful like
> implementing GLSL instead.

Furthermore, supposedly Cg and HLSL are virtually identical, and ATI
came up with this:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/hlsl2glsl

Which is BSD licensed and (apparently) fully functional. With some minor
hacking you could probably get full Cg support too.

There's also this:

http://graphics.stanford.edu/~danielrh/babelshader.html

Which seems focused on the older PS2.0/ARB assembly languages. Source is
available, but I can't find a license grant of any kind in it...
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From cdahlin at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 17:01:40 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:01:40 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCBD8E.5000400@googlemail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>	<49DCBA43.5060201@redhat.com>
	<49DCBD8E.5000400@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49DCD874.7060207@redhat.com>

psmith wrote:
> as for writing a new gfx server, well no but i will compile x with the
> standard behaviour set regardless
> 
> phil
> 

That use of the word "standard" is outright toxic. Its the same sense of the word that allows Microsoft to call Internet Explorer a "standard."

--CJD



From gnomeuser at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 17:03:50 2009
From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 19:03:50 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/8 Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com>

> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:49 PM, David Nielsen wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2009/4/8 Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Peter Robinson wrote:
> >> >>>>> Broken deps for ppc
> >> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>>>>       avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) =
> >> >>>>> 0:1.0.5000.0
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> [cut]
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>       taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) =
> >> >>>>> 0:2.0.0.0
> >> >>>>>       tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
> >> >>>>>       tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
> >> >>>>>       themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
> >> >>>>>       webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) =
> >> >>>>> 0:1.0.5000.0
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Why is there a huge number of broken mono dependencies, only in
> ppc.
> >> >>>> Did we miss something?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Read further up the mail where is states that mono on ppc has been
> >> >>> disabled.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Peter
> >> >>
> >> >> But first of all, such change (i.e. disabling ppc support on mono
> >> >> package)
> >> >> must not be done at this stage where F-11 final freeze comes very
> soon
> >> >> (4/14).
> >> >> If it cannot be done to fix the latest mono package to support ppc
> >> >> again,
> >> >> the lastest mono package must be untagged.
> >> >
> >> > There has been a number of discussions about this on fedora-devel over
> >> > the last week or so, check the archives for details.
> >> >
> >>
> >> What I don't understand is, shouldn't such a change that affects
> >> dozens of packages go through FESCo? If it did, why did we not see an
> >> announcement with BIG CAPITAL LETTERS with cream on top?
> >
> > Not a FESco decision by a mile, it is a bug... patches welcome as always.
> > You also were warned on -devel, several times in fact that we had this
> > problem. _Nobody_ with ppc skills volunteered to help actually fix the
> > problem so now it's disabled till the ppc arch team helps out with a
> > solution. Nobody on the Mono SIG has the hardware to test this nor the in
> > depth knowledge about the architecture to fix it. It has been reported to
> > upstream as well so hopefully we will see this situation mended soon.
> >
> > - David
> >
> >
> >
>
> Ah... I give up. You guys are right, by doing this update which breaks
> many packages in an architecture. I'm wrong.
> Sorry,
>

Patches welcome, we are not impeding progress and bugfixing on the archs
actually can do it on and which users depend on because you demand we do so
yet give us no help what so ever when we ask for it.

When I suggested we disable PPC temporarily nobody said a thing in protest.
You had your chance both to help and to object to the course of action.

- David
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From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  8 17:10:55 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:10:55 +0100
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DCC20A.9030702@comcast.net>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>	<49DBB051.4080200@comcast.net>	<49DBB514.2030206@googlemail.com>	<49DBD77E.8010604@comcast.net>	<49DBD952.3030909@comcast.net>
	<49DCACCE.2000505@googlemail.com> <49DCC20A.9030702@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49DCDA9F.3010201@googlemail.com>

David wrote:
> On 4/8/2009 9:55 AM, psmith wrote:
>   
>> David wrote:
>>     
>
>   
>>> Then I guess that you will have to compile your own Xorg with the switch
>>> turned on?  :-)
>>>       
>
>   
>>> Seriously. From what I read 'they' are trying to make Xorg better able to
>>> handle common things without a conf file. But Xorg still does use a conf
>>> file if it is exists. In other words? The dontzap that you set stays. As
>>> well as the nonfree drivers that some use and need the conf file.
>>>       
>
>   
>>> Relax man. You'll live longer.  8-)   
>>>       
>
>   
>> you know it may seem from my messages that i'm raging about this but
>> it's not the case, and if you can read emotions from typed text you are
>> a special individual ;)
>>     
>
>
> :-)  Why thank you. I like to think that I am special.
>
>
>   
>> i am a very chilled i'm my life and in fact i have already mentioned
>> that i will compile x with the years old standards set, heck i may even
>> put up a repo for others who wont like this change to use (and trust me
>> when i say that as more and more distro's implement this new x there
>> will be lots of those people) but i still say that fedora should take
>> the lead and revert this stupid change as most who have posted on this
>> in the fedora lists are against it, they have diverted from upstream on
>> many different things and i don't see why this should be different, and
>> then let those who want this change regress to using an xorg.conf
>>     
>
>
> Since this is the development list can I take it that you run a Rawhide
> setup or do you run a 'release' setup? I ask because trying to keep up with
> Xorg in Rawhide would be a real chore. That is why I suggested the 'dont
> zap' section in Xorg.
>
> As far as 'this' Xorg version? I can't say for *all* distributions but *all*
> of the ones that I am familiar, the major ones,  have switched to this version.
>
> I now wonder just what the thread will look like when someone notices that
> they turned of the 'blinking' in the terminal cursor?  :-p
>   
did you also go to a 'special' school? lol ;) o/j

most development releases may have this in place now (tbh i've not 
checked as i'm not following the dev releases of any distro but fedora, 
but i'll take your word on this) but when it gets out to the released 
versions the masses use then there will be more complaints for sure, as 
these are the people who mostly will be left with the choice of a hard 
reboot when the find out that ctrl-alt-backspace doesn't work when the x 
session throws a wobbly.

yes i run rawhide, and also thankfully F10, but when F11 is on a release 
then i'll start doing the rebuilds for x as it wont take much work to 
keep up then, for now i have the ability to switch to a vt, i shouldn't 
need to but i there we go

well i wouldn't notice the blinking cursor default change as i've had it 
disabled for a long time now, not only in the terminal but in all of my 
apps too

and as for your suggestion that fedora always follows upstream, i think 
you need to take a closer look as this is not the case ;)

phil



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr  8 17:11:37 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 12:11:37 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239178279.12468.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904080131q5b7cc750ib5b8cb66bf9233a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239210697.12468.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 08:10 -0500, Adam Miller wrote:
> In risk of sounding like a troll or nay-sayer... why would you want to
> port Fedora packages to Win32?

Because some of us are stuck using Windows for various purposes (Games,
Ableton Live) but miss having actual package management? Every app
having their own updater, or if not having to manually seek out updates
is annoying as hell. Using windows feels like I've wandered into some
isolated mountain village that hasn't heard of checksums and dependency
tracking.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr  8 17:13:30 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 12:13:30 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 08:36 -0500, Adam Miller wrote:
> Far enough, but is there a way to run yum or any other package manager
> in order to acquire the software?

That's the point. I want rpm on Windows. :)
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 17:14:51 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:14:51 -0700
Subject: No sound with fc11b
In-Reply-To: <1239067593.23259.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238967264.16960.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239067593.23259.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239210892.8700.135.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 21:26 -0400, Louis E Garcia II wrote:
> Conexant CX20551

https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-driver/+question/66426
looks like it may be helpful? Well, just google for "conexant cs20551
alsa" and look at the results. Usually something helpful comes up.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 17:24:50 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:24:50 -0700
Subject: future f12 test days
In-Reply-To: <1239096982.3641.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238684451.20406.18.camel@choeger5.umpa.netz>
	<1238695918.8700.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238697947.8700.21.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238747739.3338.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238781080.8700.53.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1238805746.23672.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239053037.8700.91.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239096982.3641.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239211490.8700.137.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 10:36 +0100, Chris Eveleigh wrote:

> > Or, of course - to take the standard Fedora developer tack - you could
> > do it yourself, and send the patches. :)
> 
> i'm +1 on automated testing wherever possible.  is there an existing
> project/SIG dedicated to coordinating community effort to create those
> patches?  i'm imagining something that would end up being a set of
> distro- (and possibly OS-) independent tools and procedures.

There's an autoqa project (which is mostly Will Woods' and Jesse
Keating's baby), but that's more about running tests on the sanity and
integrity of the Rawhide and anaconda trees. There's also a few other
projects which may eventually turn into something like this (or at least
lay the groundwork for it), but we're not there yet.

Look, right now we're still writing test cases as a Wiki template and
dumping results into a hastily improvised Wiki table: baby steps, guys,
baby steps :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 17:25:30 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:25:30 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 19:03 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
> 
> Patches welcome, we are not impeding progress and bugfixing on the archs
> actually can do it on and which users depend on because you demand we do so
> yet give us no help what so ever when we ask for it.
> 
> When I suggested we disable PPC temporarily nobody said a thing in protest.
> You had your chance both to help and to object to the course of action.

If you don't get it fixed by the final freeze, we'll just epoch and
downgrade mono.  This kind of version change shouldn't really be made
after beta anyway.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From paul at xelerance.com  Wed Apr  8 17:26:09 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:26:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCD5C8.6000308@comcast.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net> <49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>
	<49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net> <49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de>
	<49DCD5C8.6000308@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904081322350.19421@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, David wrote:

> "switch the distro" won't work. All are going this way.
>
> So your, and the others, options, are the same as when this started. Change
> it back yourself or live with it the way that it is now. A sub-option, if
> you want to call it an option, is to keep complaining. But you will still
> have to deal with one of the others.
>
> I am sorry that you are unhappy but I am finished with this thread.

On the contrary, look at the "sbin in regular user path". It came up
repeatedly and lo and behold, we have it in Fedora 11 and it makes me
happy. You describe it as "complaining" but you can describe it also
as "pointing out an issue has not reached concensus"

We'll see where the ctrl-alt-bksp issue goes. And for tha matter, the
same with the requests I've made in the past for UseDNS in the default
ssh client config.

Paul



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr  8 17:02:57 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:02:57 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904080944g2edaf460t8dda311ccf481b65@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net>
	<49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>	<49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net>
	<49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de>
	<16de708d0904080944g2edaf460t8dda311ccf481b65@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DCD8C1.5060509@freenet.de>

Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:
>> David wrote:
>>> enough. One little change. I change many things from the defaults.
>> With each fedora release, I increasing change more. I am seriously asking
>> myself why I am using a distro which is increasingly divering from my needs,
>> and which I experience to be increasingly less usable wrt. certain aspects.
> 
> My list of post install things to do is also growing.

If all issues were so easy to fix - Unfortunately, there are serious 
issues with some packages which can't be fixed with %posts/%triggers ;)

In many such cases, my impression is, the causes are related to
certain individuals, who are not able to separate their roles as 
"upstream developer", "packager" and (not too seldom) as "@RH".



From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Wed Apr  8 17:35:35 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?iso-8859-15?q?Skytt=E4?=)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 20:35:35 +0300
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904082035.37438.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Wednesday 08 April 2009, David Nielsen wrote:

> Not a FESco decision by a mile, it is a bug... patches welcome as always.
> You also were warned on -devel, several times in fact that we had this
> problem. _Nobody_ with ppc skills volunteered to help actually fix the
> problem so now it's disabled till the ppc arch team helps out with a
> solution. Nobody on the Mono SIG has the hardware to test this nor the in
> depth knowledge about the architecture to fix it. It has been reported to
> upstream as well so hopefully we will see this situation mended soon.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Architecture_Build_Failures

It seems that the process for excluding an arch has not been followed here 
yet.  The packaging guidelines could also be improved to include uses of 
ExclusiveArch in addition to ExcludeArch as cases that should follow this 
process.



From louisg00 at bellsouth.net  Wed Apr  8 18:00:49 2009
From: louisg00 at bellsouth.net (Louis E Garcia II)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:00:49 -0400
Subject: No sound with fc11b
In-Reply-To: <1239210892.8700.135.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238967264.16960.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239067593.23259.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239210892.8700.135.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1239213649.4003.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 10:14 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 21:26 -0400, Louis E Garcia II wrote:
> > Conexant CX20551
> 
> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-driver/+question/66426
> looks like it may be helpful? Well, just google for "conexant cs20551
> alsa" and look at the results. Usually something helpful comes up.

I managed to update my bios but did not fix the problem. This laptop
sound works with winxp and fedora 10 but not with fedora 11. I do think
this is a fedora 11 regression.




From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr  8 18:05:10 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:05:10 -0500
Subject: rawhide report: 20090404 changes
In-Reply-To: <gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090404101413.F26221B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<gr8aki$kgj$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239213910.12468.74.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-04 at 20:58 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Rawhide Report wrote:
> > tigervnc-0.0.90-0.3.1.20090403svn3751.fc11
> > ------------------------------------------
> > * Fri Apr 03 2009 Adam Tkac <atkac redhat com> 0.0.90-0.4.20090403svn3751
> [snip]
> > - use built-in libjpeg (SSE2/MMX accelerated encoding on x86 platform)
> 
> Shouldn't this be added to the system libjpeg instead, so all programs
> benefit?

And how does this all relate to liboil's JPEG functions?

http://liboil.freedesktop.org/wiki/

Liboil contains low level pieces of a JPEG implementation, and one of
the code examples implements a full JPEG decoder:

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/liboil/tree/examples/jpeg
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From felix at fetzig.org  Wed Apr  8 18:06:06 2009
From: felix at fetzig.org (Felix Kaechele)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:06:06 +0200
Subject: No sound with fc11b
In-Reply-To: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238962330.16638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49DCE78E.9030609@fetzig.org>

Am 05.04.2009 22:12, schrieb Louis E Garcia II:
> Just install f11 beta and have no sound at all. Worked with f10 fine.
> This is and intel core duo laptop. I have no idea were to begin
> debugging. Any thoughts?

Try using pavucontrol and change the drop-down selection of 
"Configuration" to "Output Analog Stereo + Input Analog Stereo"

HTH,
Felix



From a.badger at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 18:11:30 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:11:30 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49DCE8D2.1060008@gmail.com>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 19:03 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
>> Patches welcome, we are not impeding progress and bugfixing on the archs
>> actually can do it on and which users depend on because you demand we do so
>> yet give us no help what so ever when we ask for it.
>>
>> When I suggested we disable PPC temporarily nobody said a thing in protest.
>> You had your chance both to help and to object to the course of action.
> 
> If you don't get it fixed by the final freeze, we'll just epoch and
> downgrade mono.  This kind of version change shouldn't really be made
> after beta anyway.
> 
That doesn't strike me as a good idea on a variety of fronts.  The most
important is that we'll then have downgraded mono when lots of things
that depend on it were tested against the upgraded version.  It's
possible that some of those apps will either need bugfixing against the
old mono or need to be epoch downgraded as well.  If a downgrade is to
happen, this needs to be done ASAP not at final freeze.

-Toshio

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From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  8 18:31:37 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:31:37 +0100
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <49DCAF64.7040706@redhat.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>	<f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>	<49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com>	<49D41060.50907@redhat.com>	<49D4CB60.5060009@googlemail.com>
	<49DCAF64.7040706@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DCED89.4000400@googlemail.com>

Caius "kaio" Chance wrote:
> On 3/04/2009 12:27 AM, psmith wrote:
>> i'm going to try and work through it this evening but if i get no 
>> joy  i'll just wait for F11 final and go contribute to other projects 
>> that check there media before releasing it! i get that it's beta, but 
>> how are you supposed to help squash bugs if the bloody distro wont 
>> even install!
>>
>
> Followed by many many tests, my solution on my spare laptop:
>
> press [Esc] on grub menu > type 'linux acpi=off' and [Enter]
>
> That's it and I went into GUI installation screen.
>
> - kaio
>
good to hear you got it going, acpi off was one of the many things i 
tried on my acer one aspire and i just couldn't get it to go, it always 
froze at loading plymouth, thankfully the fedora xfce packager kevin 
fenzi knocked up a newer spin to use and it worked perfectly so i have 
f11 beta installed on 11 acer one's and it's running well so far :)

just for completeness kevins spin is available here >>

http://www.shsu.edu/~ajm023/fedora-xfce-20090407.iso

phil



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr  8 18:37:43 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:37:43 -0500
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <1239027296.6768.174.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49CD379D.8040104@verizon.net> <1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>
	<gqr9qk$mk3$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<faa16b610903301337i7cd94e4dr61c995c084231a37@mail.gmail.com>
	<gqraro$rqj$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238508985.5005.1378.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1238866916.18687.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239027296.6768.174.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239215863.12468.90.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 10:14 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> No, Aunt Tillie is going to hit c-a-d

... Which is disabled inside X.

> or the power button

Sure hope ACPI is working...

> like she does
> in windows.  She doesn't know the difference between that and
> c-a-backspace anyway, and the only visible difference for her is that
> full reboot takes slightly longer.
> 
> > Here, how about a real life test case:
> > 
> > <snip>
> 
> Running this in rawhide doesn't do anything particularly special.  The
> app crashes, certainly, but input continues to work afterward.  Haven't
> tried with F10 yet, maybe it's worse there.

The mouse cursor disappears and becomes completely nonfunctional. Also,
you're stuck looking at the upper left 640x480 corner of the screen. For
best effect your desktop should be at ~1280x960 or more before running
the test. Note the gnome-display-properties applet doesn't even fit on
the screen.

Sure hope Aunt Tillie knows how to log out using only the keyboard. Oh
wait:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=430404

Though I guess you can just wait for the timeout... (Yeah yeah,
supposedly fixed in F11 :)
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 18:39:51 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:39:51 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <49DCE8D2.1060008@gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DCE8D2.1060008@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239215991.11145.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 11:11 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> > If you don't get it fixed by the final freeze, we'll just epoch and
> > downgrade mono.  This kind of version change shouldn't really be made
> > after beta anyway.
> > 
> That doesn't strike me as a good idea on a variety of fronts.  The most
> important is that we'll then have downgraded mono when lots of things
> that depend on it were tested against the upgraded version.  It's
> possible that some of those apps will either need bugfixing against the
> old mono or need to be epoch downgraded as well.  If a downgrade is to
> happen, this needs to be done ASAP not at final freeze.

OK fine, it needs to happen now.  Either way we can't go into the final
freeze with a broken PPC tree.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From maxamillion at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 18:40:17 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:40:17 -0500
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <49DCED89.4000400@googlemail.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>
	<f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com> <49D41060.50907@redhat.com>
	<49D4CB60.5060009@googlemail.com> <49DCAF64.7040706@redhat.com>
	<49DCED89.4000400@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904081140y522a2bc6h99a6722cc7f85b3b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:31 PM, psmith <johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com> wrote:

> just for completeness kevins spin is available here >>
>
> http://www.shsu.edu/~ajm023/fedora-xfce-20090407.iso
>
> phil

That one is actually one I composed but it was created using the same
kickstart as Kevin's (the one in the git repository) ... they are both
incrementals, we just composed them a couple days apart.

Only reason I wanted to clarify is so that if anyone finds an issue
and wants to report it, they know which image to post back to the
thread about so that we don't end up chasing an issue on the wrong
image because it might not exist on the other as I'm sure at least a
few things have changed in three days worth of rawhide. :)

-Adam


-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 18:41:48 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:41:48 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <grgp1u$fb2$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<grgp1u$fb2$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239216108.8700.156.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 18:53 -0500, Ian Pilcher wrote:
> Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
> >> Dual-head setup in F10 is as trivial as
> > 
> > $ xrandr --output LVDS --auto --output VGA --auto --above LVDS
> > 
> 
> Try putting your displays side-by-side sometime.  You'll likely need an
> xorg.conf to specify a sufficiently wide virtual desktop.

Only with noveau, not intel or radeon.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 18:50:16 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:50:16 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071812430.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
References: <E2AC825D4FC7764DA86D9C8ECA27A2DE02499C48@catoexm05.noam.corp.platform.com>
	<49DBBD65.6090702@cchtml.com>
	<20090407214210.GD20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49DBCA31.5060305@cchtml.com>
	<1239142201.3767.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071812430.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <1239216616.8700.157.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 18:16 -0400, Paul Wouters wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Jesse Keating wrote:
> 
> > If you use the System -> Preferences -> Display tool to set up your dual
> > head mode, every time you log in and those monitors are present your
> > settings will be used at log in time, no need to save it to an xorg
> > file.
> 
> Display tool would only list one monitor.

The NVIDIA proprietary driver does dual head in its own special way
which isn't compatible with RandR. As I recall, a few versions of the
driver had an experimental RandR 1.2 implementation you could enable,
but I think they've canned that for now...
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From tgl at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 18:54:07 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:54:07 -0400
Subject: Getting debuginfo into a mock chroot?
Message-ID: <16779.1239216847@sss.pgh.pa.us>

I'm trying to debug a failure inside a mock chroot for fedora rawhide.
To figure out what's going on, I need to install debuginfo for glibc
and some other libraries, but I've had no luck figuring out how.
mock --install does nothing and emits not a hint about why not.
Any advice?

(The host machine is Fedora 10 x86_64, if it matters.)

			regards, tom lane



From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 19:01:28 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 12:01:28 -0700
Subject: Getting debuginfo into a mock chroot?
In-Reply-To: <16779.1239216847@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <16779.1239216847@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239217288.11145.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 14:54 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> I'm trying to debug a failure inside a mock chroot for fedora rawhide.
> To figure out what's going on, I need to install debuginfo for glibc
> and some other libraries, but I've had no luck figuring out how.
> mock --install does nothing and emits not a hint about why not.
> Any advice?
> 
> (The host machine is Fedora 10 x86_64, if it matters.)
> 
> 			regards, tom lane

Did you enable the debuginfo repos in your mock config?  You can bump up
the yum debug level to something higher than 1 in your mock config, and
then run with mock -v -r <config>  to get more verbose output.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From galibert at pobox.com  Wed Apr  8 19:03:07 2009
From: galibert at pobox.com (Olivier Galibert)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 21:03:07 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20090408190307.GA83077@dspnet.fr.eu.org>

On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 02:46:14PM +0100, psmith wrote:
> the vote was taken in secret by the xorg folks a while ago, real 
> community spirit in action!

And the result of the vote was "don't change the default" iirc.

  OG.



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 19:01:54 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:01:54 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904080712n26a6888do5761ccd89cf4a94e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>	<5256d0b0904080606r7cb60342i841dcff7f69c451@mail.gmail.com>	<29fee02b0904080649r2f9e871bu20e1fd9895206335@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080712n26a6888do5761ccd89cf4a94e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DCF4A2.3000203@redhat.com>

On 04/08/2009 10:12 AM, Peter Robinson wrote:
>>> Is moonlight still not on the Fedora Forbidden list?
>> Yes.
>>
>>> Or has the circumstances changed and the wiki not been updated?
>> No. Please read:
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492048
> 
> To me comment 8 in that bug reads as if all of moonlight is in the
> subpackage, not just the hooks for it.

No, he was just not being very clear about it. Mono has an API level of
tools called "moonlight" that are necessary to build "moonlight".

~spot



From gnomeuser at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 19:09:32 2009
From: gnomeuser at gmail.com (David Nielsen)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 21:09:32 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1dedbbfc0904081209j2e07d0b2g1067722fbb79a71b@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/8 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>

> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 19:03 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
> >
> > Patches welcome, we are not impeding progress and bugfixing on the archs
> > actually can do it on and which users depend on because you demand we do
> so
> > yet give us no help what so ever when we ask for it.
> >
> > When I suggested we disable PPC temporarily nobody said a thing in
> protest.
> > You had your chance both to help and to object to the course of action.
>
> If you don't get it fixed by the final freeze, we'll just epoch and
> downgrade mono.  This kind of version change shouldn't really be made
> after beta anyway.


The version change happened long before the beta, we have had SVN snapshots
leading to 2.4 since the beginning of the F11 cycle. It was always the aim,
stated to ship with it. It all of a sudden stopped compiling on PPC and
nobody stepped forward for a clear solution. It's not like we bumped from
2.2 to 2.4 all of a sudden, it was a relatively minor change considering.

The last Mono to be compiled on PPC is close to 2.4, however we do not have
some changes that was requested as well as the bugfixes in between. I am as
of now unaware if the build failure is something that changed in the build
system or Mono. Considering the relatively few changes that should be
between the last SVN build and 2.4 final I am skeptical that it is the
cause. Around the same time Mono started failing I also heard that PPC was
acting weird for other people but that might be unrelated.

More in depth investigation is, and has been, requested. It's not like
anyone enjoys leaving our users without a full Fedora experience regardless
of their setup, it is a last resort to disable the build. It is however out
of our hands, our capable PPC team will hopefully be able to track down the
problem. I am hopeful they can put their thinking caps on and give us an
answer as to what is causing it.
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From tgl at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 19:19:51 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:19:51 -0400
Subject: Getting debuginfo into a mock chroot? 
In-Reply-To: <1239217288.11145.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <16779.1239216847@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239217288.11145.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <17306.1239218391@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 14:54 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>> mock --install does nothing and emits not a hint about why not.

> Did you enable the debuginfo repos in your mock config?

Hah, I had been trying to enable it in the regular yum.repos.d file,
not in the mock config file.  However, adding

[fedora-debug]
name=fedora-debug
mirrorlist=http://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/mirrorlist?repo=rawhide-debug&arch=x86_64
failovermethod=priority

didn't change anything.

> You can bump up
> the yum debug level to something higher than 1 in your mock config,

Sorry to be obtuse, but I'm not seeing where to do that?  mock -v does
confirm that it's executing

DEBUG: Executing command: /usr/bin/yum --installroot /var/lib/mock/fedora-rawhide-x86_64/root/  install glibc-debuginfo-2.9.90-12
DEBUG: Child returncode was: 0

and that that's obviously not taking long enough to have done anything,
but I'm not having luck getting yum to explain itself.

			regards, tom lane



From tgl at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 19:32:54 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:32:54 -0400
Subject: Getting debuginfo into a mock chroot? 
In-Reply-To: <17306.1239218391@sss.pgh.pa.us> 
References: <16779.1239216847@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239217288.11145.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<17306.1239218391@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <17556.1239219174@sss.pgh.pa.us>

I wrote:
> Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
>> Did you enable the debuginfo repos in your mock config?

> Hah, I had been trying to enable it in the regular yum.repos.d file,
> not in the mock config file.  However, adding

Ah-hah, the actual answer is you have to put the debuginfo repo into
/etc/yum.conf inside the chroot.  For some reason, marking it enabled
in the chroot's /etc/yum.repos.d/* does nothing.

			regards, tom lane



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr  8 19:35:56 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 21:35:56 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCD5C8.6000308@comcast.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net>	<49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>	<49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net>	<49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de>
	<49DCD5C8.6000308@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49DCFC9C.3030706@freenet.de>

David wrote:
> On 4/8/2009 12:29 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> David wrote:
>>> On 4/8/2009 11:25 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>>> David wrote:
> 
>>>>> Said more simply? This discussion is on the wrong list. You're
>>>>> talking to
>>>>> the wrong people. Actually it looks more like you are talking to
>>>>> yourselves.
>>>> Not quite: Setting up a distro and preparing packages to include them
>>>> into a distro is a bit more than blindly following "upstreams".
> 
>>>> It also means package maintainers to be "listening" to their
>>>> "user-base", to communicate their user-base's concerns upstream and to
>>>> deviate from upstream when necessary.
> 
> 
>>> This discussion has me thinking about the last time I used C-A-B. And
>>> quite
>>> honestly I can't recall the last time. Certainly not recently.
>> As far as I am concerned:
>> - Ca. 4 weeks ago, when trying to get my netbook working with an
>> external monitor
>> - Today, when something, I don't know, crashed X and left me with an
>> entirely black screen.
> 
> 
>>> I do understand that some users have problems and that some users need
>>> this.
>>> However the way I see it is that the change has been made and will not be
>>> reverting.
> 
>>> Which means one of two things.
> 
>>> Learn to live with the change. Or you change it back yourself.
>> Or ...
>> - exchange upstream
>> - exchange the fedora packager
>> - switch the distro.
>> - fork the distro (This change alone is easy to patch).
> 
>> I think it would be appropriate to have FESCo interfere and let them
>> vote on this matter.
> 
>>> Seems simple
>>> enough. One little change. I change many things from the defaults.
>> With each fedora release, I increasing change more. I am seriously
>> asking myself why I am using a distro which is increasingly divering
>> from my needs, and which I experience to be increasingly less usable
>> wrt. certain aspects.
> 
> 
> "switch the distro" won't work. All are going this way.

You might want to have a second glance - SuSE Factory has this:

  --- xorg-server-1.6.0/hw/xfree86/common/xf86Config.c.orig 
2009-02-28 20:29:42.000000000 +0100
+++ xorg-server-1.6.0/hw/xfree86/common/xf86Config.c    2009-02-28 
20:30:44.000000000 +0100
@@ -734,7 +734,7 @@ static OptionInfoRec FlagOptions[] = {
    { FLAG_DONTVTSWITCH,         "DontVTSwitch", 
OPTV_BOOLEAN,
         {0}, FALSE },
    { FLAG_DONTZAP,              "DontZap", 
OPTV_BOOLEAN,
-       {0}, TRUE },
+       {0}, FALSE },
    { FLAG_ZAPWARNING,            "ZapWarning", 
OPTV_BOOLEAN,
         {0}, FALSE },
    { FLAG_DONTZOOM,             "DontZoom", 
OPTV_BOOLEAN,


 > So your, and the others, options, are the same as when this started.
Correct - my opinion still is: upstream's decision is silly.

Also, provided the hazzle this issue has caused, I am deeply convinced 
the change would have been reverted in Fedora, if Fedora package 
maintainer wasn't a RH employee.





From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 20:02:10 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:02:10 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0904081209j2e07d0b2g1067722fbb79a71b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1dedbbfc0904081209j2e07d0b2g1067722fbb79a71b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239220930.11145.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 21:09 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
> The version change happened long before the beta, we have had SVN snapshots
> leading to 2.4 since the beginning of the F11 cycle. It was always the aim,
> stated to ship with it. It all of a sudden stopped compiling on PPC and
> nobody stepped forward for a clear solution. It's not like we bumped from
> 2.2 to 2.4 all of a sudden, it was a relatively minor change considering.
> 
> The last Mono to be compiled on PPC is close to 2.4, however we do not have
> some changes that was requested as well as the bugfixes in between. I am as
> of now unaware if the build failure is something that changed in the build
> system or Mono. Considering the relatively few changes that should be
> between the last SVN build and 2.4 final I am skeptical that it is the
> cause. Around the same time Mono started failing I also heard that PPC was
> acting weird for other people but that might be unrelated.
> 
> More in depth investigation is, and has been, requested. It's not like
> anyone enjoys leaving our users without a full Fedora experience regardless
> of their setup, it is a last resort to disable the build. It is however out
> of our hands, our capable PPC team will hopefully be able to track down the
> problem. I am hopeful they can put their thinking caps on and give us an
> answer as to what is causing it.

At this stage of the development process, the build shouldn't have been
done excluding PPC.  We wouldn't allow that of any other language with
lots of dependent packages, why would we allow that for mono?

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 20:03:10 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:03:10 -0700
Subject: Getting debuginfo into a mock chroot?
In-Reply-To: <17556.1239219174@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <16779.1239216847@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239217288.11145.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<17306.1239218391@sss.pgh.pa.us>  <17556.1239219174@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239220990.11145.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 15:32 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Ah-hah, the actual answer is you have to put the debuginfo repo into
> /etc/yum.conf inside the chroot.  For some reason, marking it enabled
> in the chroot's /etc/yum.repos.d/* does nothing.

Once you've created the chroot and are making --install calls, yes it
uses the yum setup in the chroot.  The yum conf in the chroot comes from
the mock config file though.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 20:04:56 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:04:56 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <1239031116.8700.62.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org> <1238650802.4338.196.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1q45$ikd$1@ger.gmane.org> <1238694566.4338.214.camel@adam.local.net>
	<grbivd$68e$1@ger.gmane.org> <1239031116.8700.62.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1239221096.8700.159.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 08:18 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

> > It turns out this was actually a hickup in kdepimlibs, the scriptlet to move
> > the libkcal.so devel symlink to the %{_libdir}/kde4/devel directory was
> > incorrect in our recent kdepimlibs builds. (This was not noticed with KDE
> > packages because they use CMake exported targets which exports the
> > versioned library, so they link the versioned library directly and never
> > use the symlink.)
> > 
> > This should be fixed in kdepimlibs-4.2.2-3.fc11 and
> > libopensync-plugin-kdepim-0.22-5.fc11.
> 
> Roger, will give it a shot. Sorry I didn't reply earlier - was out for
> the weekend already.

Wow, you're a hero - it actually works. I wasn't expecting that, I have
to admit =)

I tested by syncing evolution <-> kdepim and running kontact, all the
contacts showed up with correct data. Some contacts had got duplicated
for some reason, but still, nice effort. (they may actually have got
duplicated in earlier testing of something else, and I just didn't
notice - that's a possibility). thanks!
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  8 20:06:20 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 21:06:20 +0100
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904081140y522a2bc6h99a6722cc7f85b3b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>	<f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>	<49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com>
	<49D41060.50907@redhat.com>	<49D4CB60.5060009@googlemail.com>
	<49DCAF64.7040706@redhat.com>	<49DCED89.4000400@googlemail.com>
	<f12087800904081140y522a2bc6h99a6722cc7f85b3b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DD03BC.1020803@googlemail.com>

Adam Miller wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:31 PM, psmith <johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> just for completeness kevins spin is available here >>
>>
>> http://www.shsu.edu/~ajm023/fedora-xfce-20090407.iso
>>
>> phil
>>     
>
> That one is actually one I composed but it was created using the same
> kickstart as Kevin's (the one in the git repository) ... they are both
> incrementals, we just composed them a couple days apart.
>
> Only reason I wanted to clarify is so that if anyone finds an issue
> and wants to report it, they know which image to post back to the
> thread about so that we don't end up chasing an issue on the wrong
> image because it might not exist on the other as I'm sure at least a
> few things have changed in three days worth of rawhide. :)
>
> -Adam
>
>
>   
oops sorry, copy and paste form the wrong email :o

kevins compose >>

http://mirrors.tummy.com/pub/tmp/Fedora-xfce-20090404-i686.iso

phil



From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Wed Apr  8 20:07:43 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?iso-8859-1?q?Skytt=E4?=)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 23:07:43 +0300
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
Message-ID: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

Hello,

Quite a few packages that produce *-debuginfo without sources have crept again 
in rawhide.  See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Debuginfo for 
possible reasons, the most usual of which in my (past, haven't checked this 
batch that closely) experience is failure to honor $RPM_OPT_FLAGS during build 
which can also mean that the default security related compiler flags aren't 
being applied either.

List of such packages identified by my debuginfo-check.py is attached 
(ownership info generated with Thorsten's fedoradev-pkgowners).  I intend to 
submit debuginfo-check.py to yum-utils (probably as debugrepo-check) and have 
added a similar check in upstream svn rpmlint, hopefully with these additions 
people will start noticing the issues easier.
-------------- next part --------------
Maintainer   Package                     Co-maintainers
----------------------------------------------------------------
aconway      rhm                         nsantos
alexlan      pvm                         (none)
amdunn       why                         (none)
athimm       mediawiki                   (none)
ausil        elftoaout                   pjones,spot,jima
awjb         multisync                   (none)
bjensen      colrdx                      sindrepb,sconklin,dp67
bonii        moe                         (none)
caolanm      sac                         (none)
ctyler       nled                        overholt
cweyl        perl-DBI-Dumper             perl-sig
cwickert     emelfm2                     (none)
dbhole       antlr                       (none)
dbhole       jakarta-commons-logging     overholt,kasal
dbhole       sinjdoc                     (none)
dcantrel     pyparted                    (none)
dcbw         csound                      pfj
dchen        libchewing                  i18n-team
dchen        tomoe-gtk                   i18n-team,ryo
deji         atlas                       deji
devrim       byaccj                      dbhole
devrim       postgresql-odbcng           (none)
devrim       regexp                      (none)
dledford     lam                         (none)
drepper      pfstools                    (none)
dwalluck     hamcrest                    (none)
dwheeler     zenon                       pertusus
fab          rfdump                      (none)
fab          timespan                    (none)
fnasser      gnu-getopt                  (none)
gemi         curry                       (none)
gemi         erlang                      (none)
gemi         GtkAda                      (none)
gemi         wings                       (none)
green        phasex                      (none)
guthrie      simplyhtml                  (none)
ianweller    csstidy                     (none)
ifoox        mysql-connector-java        (none)
itamarjp     balance                     (none)
ixs          ddrescue                    (none)
ixs          hevea                       (none)
jkeating     email2trac                  (none)
jmagne       esc                         (none)
jsafrane     freeipmi                    pknirsch
jsafrane     OpenIPMI                    pknirsch
jwrdegoede   elice                       (none)
jwrdegoede   lostlabyrinth               (none)
kasal        transfig                    pertusus
kdudka       curl                        (none)
konradm      genus2reduction             (none)
konradm      taginfo                     (none)
kvolny       vodovod                     (none)
langel       bouncycastle                langel,oget
laxathom     gammu                       (none)
limb         astromenace                 (none)
limb         planets                     mmahut
limb         wesnoth                     wtogami
linville     b43-fwcutter                (none)
makghosh     qps                         (none)
maxamillion  ninvaders                   (none)
maxamillion  shed                        (none)
mbooth       brazil                      (none)
mmahut       nightfall                   astronomy-sig
mwringe      xerces-j2                   (none)
oget         slv2                        (none)
orion        GMT                         pertusus
orion        wgrib2                      pertusus
ovasik       star                        mildew
overholt     jython                      jmatthews
pcheung      avalon-logkit               (none)
pcheung      concurrent                  (none)
pcheung      jakarta-commons-httpclient  akurtakov
pfj          mono-debugger               (none)
pvrabec      sectool                     jhrozek,mildew
rishi        osmo                        (none)
rrankin      denemo                      (none)
sconklin     splat                       bjensen,dp67
sergiopr     blitz                       (none)
sindrepb     xdotool                     (none)
snecker      libflaim                    (none)
tanguy       gperiodic                   (none)
terjeros     simdock                     (none)
thias        gentoo                      (none)
tuxbrewr     quassel                     (none)
twaugh       cups                        (none)
verdurin     gnomint                     (none)
wart         wormux                      (none)
wtogami      ldm                         toshio,pertusus,eharrison,ryan52
zprikryl     libtrash                    (none)
(orphan)     olpc-utils                  dcbw,johnp

From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  8 20:10:06 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 21:10:06 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090408190307.GA83077@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
	<20090408190307.GA83077@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
Message-ID: <49DD049E.5000603@googlemail.com>

Olivier Galibert wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 02:46:14PM +0100, psmith wrote:
>   
>> the vote was taken in secret by the xorg folks a while ago, real 
>> community spirit in action!
>>     
>
> And the result of the vote was "don't change the default" iirc.
>
>   OG.
>
>   
wtf! then if the secret x devs vote result was not to change the default 
then why did the change get in?

phil



From galibert at pobox.com  Wed Apr  8 20:17:43 2009
From: galibert at pobox.com (Olivier Galibert)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 22:17:43 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DD049E.5000603@googlemail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
	<20090408190307.GA83077@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<49DD049E.5000603@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20090408201743.GA1339@dspnet.fr.eu.org>

On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:10:06PM +0100, psmith wrote:
> wtf! then if the secret x devs vote result was not to change the default 
> then why did the change get in?

That's known as "last patch wins".  Or "nyah nyah nyah I have commit
access and you don't".

  OG.



From mjg at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 20:21:11 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 21:21:11 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090408201743.GA1339@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
	<20090408190307.GA83077@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<49DD049E.5000603@googlemail.com>
	<20090408201743.GA1339@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
Message-ID: <20090408202111.GA886@srcf.ucam.org>

On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 10:17:43PM +0200, Olivier Galibert wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:10:06PM +0100, psmith wrote:
> > wtf! then if the secret x devs vote result was not to change the default 
> > then why did the change get in?
> 
> That's known as "last patch wins".  Or "nyah nyah nyah I have commit
> access and you don't".

Or "The people who do the work get to make the decisions".

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  8 20:28:28 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 21:28:28 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090408202111.GA886@srcf.ucam.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>	<20090408190307.GA83077@dspnet.fr.eu.org>	<49DD049E.5000603@googlemail.com>	<20090408201743.GA1339@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<20090408202111.GA886@srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <49DD08EC.3030707@googlemail.com>

Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 10:17:43PM +0200, Olivier Galibert wrote:
>   
>> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:10:06PM +0100, psmith wrote:
>>     
>>> wtf! then if the secret x devs vote result was not to change the default 
>>> then why did the change get in?
>>>       
>> That's known as "last patch wins".  Or "nyah nyah nyah I have commit
>> access and you don't".
>>     
>
> Or "The people who do the work get to make the decisions".
>
>   
but the devs are the people who do the work, and if the majority of 
those devs voted no, why did the change go through?. this is getting 
more and more unbelievable as more facts come out

phil



From tgl at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 20:33:35 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:33:35 -0400
Subject: Getting debuginfo into a mock chroot? 
In-Reply-To: <1239220990.11145.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <16779.1239216847@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239217288.11145.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<17306.1239218391@sss.pgh.pa.us> <17556.1239219174@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239220990.11145.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <19290.1239222815@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 15:32 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Ah-hah, the actual answer is you have to put the debuginfo repo into
>> /etc/yum.conf inside the chroot.  For some reason, marking it enabled
>> in the chroot's /etc/yum.repos.d/* does nothing.

> Once you've created the chroot and are making --install calls, yes it
> uses the yum setup in the chroot.  The yum conf in the chroot comes from
> the mock config file though.

Ah, so had I changed the mock config before populating the chroot, life
would have been good.  It makes sense now.

Now, if we could only have non-broken build tools in rawhide ...

DEBUG util.py:280:  Executing command: ['rpm', '-Uvh', '--nodeps', '/builddir/build/originals/mysql-5.1.33-1.fc11.src.rpm']
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: Unterminated {: {_%{_keyringpath}/*.k
DEBUG util.py:256:    0< /
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: /: reading of public key failed.
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: cannot open Packages index using db3 - No such file or directory (2)
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: Unterminated {: {_%{_dbpat)
DEBUG util.py:256:    0< /
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: cannot open Packages database in /
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: Unterminated {: {_%{_topdiY
DEBUG util.py:256:    0< /
DEBUG util.py:256:  mysql                       error: Unterminated {: {_%{_sourcedi
DEBUG util.py:256:    0< /
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: Unterminated {: {_%{_specdi
DEBUG util.py:256:    0< /
DEBUG util.py:256:  ##################################################
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: unpacking of archive failed on file /b/builddir/build/SOURCE/ffilter-requires-mysql.sh9;49dd089d: cpio: mkdir failed - Invalid argument
DEBUG util.py:256:  error: /builddir/build/originals/mysql-5.1.33-1.fc11.src.rpm cannot be installed
DEBUG util.py:319:  Child returncode was: 1

Think I'm going to take a break for awhile and let my blood pressure
drop.

			regards, tom lane



From notting at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 20:35:55 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 16:35:55 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0904081209j2e07d0b2g1067722fbb79a71b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1dedbbfc0904081209j2e07d0b2g1067722fbb79a71b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090408203554.GA5784@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

David Nielsen (gnomeuser at gmail.com) said: 
> stated to ship with it. It all of a sudden stopped compiling on PPC and
> nobody stepped forward for a clear solution.

It was posted to the list what the likely reason why it was failing was.
It appears nothing was done about that?

> I am as
> of now unaware if the build failure is something that changed in the build
> system or Mono.

... "I don't know"

> Considering the relatively few changes that should be
> between the last SVN build and 2.4 final I am skeptical that it is the
> cause. Around the same time Mono started failing I also heard that PPC was
> acting weird for other people but that might be unrelated.

... "but I have unsubstantiated hearsay"

> More in depth investigation is, and has been, requested. It's not like
> anyone enjoys leaving our users without a full Fedora experience regardless
> of their setup, it is a last resort to disable the build. It is however out
> of our hands, our capable PPC team will hopefully be able to track down the
> problem.

... "so *I* (not the mono maintainer, *you*, personally - check the archives)
suggested we disable it. It's out of the mono team's hands now!"

Your magnamity and professionalism is appreciated.

Bill



From dgboles at comcast.net  Wed Apr  8 20:58:49 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:58:49 -0400
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <49DCDA9F.3010201@googlemail.com>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>	<49DBB051.4080200@comcast.net>	<49DBB514.2030206@googlemail.com>	<49DBD77E.8010604@comcast.net>	<49DBD952.3030909@comcast.net>	<49DCACCE.2000505@googlemail.com>
	<49DCC20A.9030702@comcast.net> <49DCDA9F.3010201@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49DD1009.4070909@comcast.net>

On 4/8/2009 1:10 PM, psmith wrote:

> did you also go to a 'special' school? lol ;) o/j


No. Not really. But I have a minor in psychology and I dated a girl that
later became a shrink.


> most development releases may have this in place now (tbh i've not
> checked as i'm not following the dev releases of any distro but fedora,
> but i'll take your word on this) but when it gets out to the released
> versions the masses use then there will be more complaints for sure, as
> these are the people who mostly will be left with the choice of a hard
> reboot when the find out that ctrl-alt-backspace doesn't work when the x
> session throws a wobbly.

> yes i run rawhide, and also thankfully F10, but when F11 is on a release
> then i'll start doing the rebuilds for x as it wont take much work to
> keep up then, for now i have the ability to switch to a vt, i shouldn't
> need to but i there we go

> well i wouldn't notice the blinking cursor default change as i've had it
> disabled for a long time now, not only in the terminal but in all of my
> apps too

> and as for your suggestion that fedora always follows upstream, i think
> you need to take a closer look as this is not the case ;)


That's what Fedora claims.  :-)  Examples? Just a few.

I won't name other distro names here. But as I said I can't think of one
major one that will not, or already does not, have Xorg 1.6 and C-A-B is
disabled. And several a set to release very soon.

Me? If I wanted, or needed, this I would go the xorg.conf route. Much less
work and much less effort. If, in the future, xorg.conf is abandoned I would
then consider compiling my own. It is a little more time consuming than you
might think I would bet.

Good Luck.
-- 


  David



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 21:13:09 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 16:13:09 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 08:36 -0500, Adam Miller wrote:
> > Far enough, but is there a way to run yum or any other package manager
> > in order to acquire the software?
>
> That's the point. I want rpm on Windows. :)
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

If it's written in python (which yum is), then it should be relatively easy
to port to Windows compared to C/C++ code.
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 21:17:38 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:17:38 -0700
Subject: Getting debuginfo into a mock chroot?
In-Reply-To: <19290.1239222815@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <16779.1239216847@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239217288.11145.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<17306.1239218391@sss.pgh.pa.us> <17556.1239219174@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239220990.11145.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<19290.1239222815@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239225458.11145.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 16:33 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Now, if we could only have non-broken build tools in rawhide ...

We have a combo of a broken glibc.i586 and a yum that accidentally picks
that over glibc.i686 when initing buildroots.  No fix yet for glibc, but
I'm testing an updated yum that will be more likely to pick glibc.i686
instead.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Wed Apr  8 21:33:42 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:33:42 -0500
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <20090408092837.GH20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200904081051.19871.mhlavink@redhat.com>
	<20090408092837.GH20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
Message-ID: <grj57m$ksu$1@ger.gmane.org>

Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
> Has anyone looked at and tested the AllowDeactivateGrabs and
> AllowClosedownGrabs options in their xorg.conf instead of blindly
> relying on C-A-Bs to shoot the server in the head? If they still have
> keyboard interrupt, these options may actually be a better solution
> than killing the entire X server.

I looked at them while struggling with 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=473825... they didn't work 
(probably because the actual problem in said bug was not, in fact, a bad 
grab, but something a little stranger). In the process of investigating 
them, I learned they had (reportedly) been removed in current X.org.

-- 
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
-- 
???????????????????????



From noring at nocrew.org  Wed Apr  8 21:38:21 2009
From: noring at nocrew.org (Fredrik Noring)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 23:38:21 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] Backport of ps3vram module to Fedora 9 (PPC64 kernel 2.6.27)
Message-ID: <760C0551-7594-44BC-A850-9BC4E179B0C2@nocrew.org>

Hi all,

I've been searching for the ps3vram module for Fedora 9 (PPC64 kernel  
2.6.27) on the Playstation 3, but couldn't find it so I made a  
backport based on Linus' current Git tree.

The module makes GPU video RAM available as swap space which speeds  
things up a lot. The patch is attached if anyone is interested. To  
enable:

mkswap /dev/ps3vram
swapon -p 10 /dev/ps3vram

All the best,
Fredrik

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From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr  8 21:39:24 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:39:24 -0400
Subject: F11: xorg decision to disable Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
In-Reply-To: <1239215863.12468.90.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49CD379D.8040104@verizon.net> <1238389976.3941.3.camel@moose>
	<gqr9qk$mk3$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<faa16b610903301337i7cd94e4dr61c995c084231a37@mail.gmail.com>
	<gqraro$rqj$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238508985.5005.1378.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1238866916.18687.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239027296.6768.174.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1239215863.12468.90.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239226764.12485.72.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 13:37 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 10:14 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> > No, Aunt Tillie is going to hit c-a-d
> 
> ... Which is disabled inside X.

Strange, it sure seems to pop up a powerdown dialog for me.  Although
the original point was about stuck grabs, so, fair enough.

> > or the power button
> 
> Sure hope ACPI is working...

If the EC doesn't respond, the keyboard controller sure as hell isn't
going to.

> > Running this in rawhide doesn't do anything particularly special.  The
> > app crashes, certainly, but input continues to work afterward.  Haven't
> > tried with F10 yet, maybe it's worse there.
> 
> The mouse cursor disappears and becomes completely nonfunctional. Also,
> you're stuck looking at the upper left 640x480 corner of the screen. For
> best effect your desktop should be at ~1280x960 or more before running
> the test. Note the gnome-display-properties applet doesn't even fit on
> the screen.

I bet that's fixed with this build:

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1286108

- ajax
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From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 22:37:49 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:37:49 -0400
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 16:13 -0500, King InuYasha wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com>
> wrote:
>         On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 08:36 -0500, Adam Miller wrote:
>         > Far enough, but is there a way to run yum or any other
>         package manager
>         > in order to acquire the software?
>         
>         
>         That's the point. I want rpm on Windows. :)
>         
>         --
>         fedora-devel-list mailing list
>         fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
>         https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
> 
> If it's written in python (which yum is), then it should be relatively
> easy to port to Windows compared to C/C++ code.

yum is, but rpm (which includes rpm-python) is not; that will take
significantly more effort to put in (e.g., Add/Remove integration).

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From anders at trudheim.co.uk  Wed Apr  8 22:42:25 2009
From: anders at trudheim.co.uk (Anders Rayner-Karlsson)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 00:42:25 +0200
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <grj57m$ksu$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239133619.12485.0.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1239168599.12468.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904081051.19871.mhlavink@redhat.com>
	<20090408092837.GH20632@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<grj57m$ksu$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090408224225.GA24581@iota.trudheim.co.uk>

* Matthew Woehlke <mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net> [20090408 23:34]:
> Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
>> Has anyone looked at and tested the AllowDeactivateGrabs and
>> AllowClosedownGrabs options in their xorg.conf instead of blindly
>> relying on C-A-Bs to shoot the server in the head? If they still have
>> keyboard interrupt, these options may actually be a better solution
>> than killing the entire X server.
>
> I looked at them while struggling with  
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=473825... they didn't work  
> (probably because the actual problem in said bug was not, in fact, a bad  
> grab, but something a little stranger). In the process of investigating  
> them, I learned they had (reportedly) been removed in current X.org.

So it has.
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/commit/?id=5e43cd28692bc05cac80f38b47104a26c0524385

Thanks for pointing that out.

-- 
/Anders



From alexl at users.sourceforge.net  Wed Apr  8 23:51:19 2009
From: alexl at users.sourceforge.net (Alex Lancaster)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:51:19 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	(David Nielsen's message of "Wed\, 8 Apr 2009 19\:03\:50 +0200")
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <wyvdpepuvc.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>

>>>>> "DN" == David Nielsen  writes:

[...]

DN> Patches welcome, we are not impeding progress and bugfixing on the
DN> archs actually can do it on and which users depend on because you
DN> demand we do so yet give us no help what so ever when we ask for
DN> it.

DN> When I suggested we disable PPC temporarily nobody said a thing in
DN> protest.  You had your chance both to help and to object to the
DN> course of action.

I think the problem was in this situation that the implications of
what you were proposing weren't sufficiently spelt out.  I think this
was the e-mail where you suggested blocking ppc:

http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg00206.html

The problem is the subject and/or body should have had a big fat
warning like: "all mono-dependent apps such as banshee etc. will also
have to be blocked temporarily" to get people's attention above the
chaff of the high f-d-l traffic.

For example, when I looked at that e-mail I saw the keywords
"monodevelop", "blocking", "ppc" and assumed you were probably talking
about a single mono package, not the entire stack.  If I had realized
exactly what was being proposed, I'm sure I and others would have
spoken up.

Alex



From tony at bakeyournoodle.com  Thu Apr  9 00:27:27 2009
From: tony at bakeyournoodle.com (Tony Breeds)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:27:27 +1000
Subject: Tracking arch specific bugs
Message-ID: <20090409002727.GJ16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>

Newbie alert!

Hi All,
	What is the bast way to track all bugs in bugzilla that apply to a
particular arch?   I'm interested in powerpc bugs.

Currently I'mm CC'd on:

Tracking bug for Fedora Core Mac (PPC) support.
ExcludeArch Tracker for ppc
ExcludeArch Tracker for ppc64

But these don't seem to cover all the bugs, and seem to be opt-in rather than
automagically maintained.  Sure I can save a query that shows me all the bugs
for powerpc but that's a manual process.  What I'd erally like is whenever a new
powerpc bug is discoverd to be emailed so I can see if I can help.

Also is the an arch-powerpc team? if so how can I join?

Yours Tony



From cchance at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 01:16:53 2009
From: cchance at redhat.com (Caius "kaio" Chance)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 11:16:53 +1000
Subject: f11 beta xfce live install/run problem
In-Reply-To: <49DCED89.4000400@googlemail.com>
References: <49D3C54F.8040305@googlemail.com>	<f12087800904011256n61e99bd5jea00c5846feb53c3@mail.gmail.com>	<49D3DC0D.8040007@googlemail.com>	<49D41060.50907@redhat.com>	<49D4CB60.5060009@googlemail.com>	<49DCAF64.7040706@redhat.com>
	<49DCED89.4000400@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49DD4C85.1040305@redhat.com>

On 9/04/2009 4:31 AM, psmith wrote:
> good to hear you got it going, acpi off was one of the many things i 
> tried on my acer one aspire and i just couldn't get it to go, it 
> always froze at loading plymouth, thankfully the fedora xfce packager 
> kevin fenzi knocked up a newer spin to use and it worked perfectly so 
> i have f11 beta installed on 11 acer one's and it's running well so 
> far :)
>
Goo to hear you got it going too! :)

- kaio



From carl at five-ten-sg.com  Thu Apr  9 03:30:25 2009
From: carl at five-ten-sg.com (Carl Byington)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:30:25 -0700
Subject: review request for libpst
Message-ID: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

libpst was just a collection of utilities to decode MS Outlook .pst
files. It is in the process of being split into a shared library and
the same utilities, so the shared library can be used by other clients,
among them an Evolution plugin. The first attempt at this is at
<http://www.five-ten-sg.com/libpst/packages/libpst.spec> and
<http://www.five-ten-sg.com/libpst/packages/libpst-0.6.35-1.src.rpm>.
That is not in the fedora cvs yet, because I think it unlikely that I
have done a perfect job of that conversion. If anyone cares to look at
that, let me know what needs to be changed.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)

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=77In
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From mjg at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 06:43:01 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:43:01 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DD08EC.3030707@googlemail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
	<20090408190307.GA83077@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<49DD049E.5000603@googlemail.com>
	<20090408201743.GA1339@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<20090408202111.GA886@srcf.ucam.org>
	<49DD08EC.3030707@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20090409064301.GA8407@srcf.ucam.org>

On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:28:28PM +0100, psmith wrote:
> Matthew Garrett wrote:
> >Or "The people who do the work get to make the decisions".
> >
> >  
> but the devs are the people who do the work, and if the majority of 
> those devs voted no, why did the change go through?. this is getting 
> more and more unbelievable as more facts come out

There was no vote amongst developers. A decision was made and there was 
no significant dissent amongst the developer body. Like most upstream 
projects, decisions about X result from gaining rough consensus amongst 
the relevant people. User viewpoints will be considered as part of this, 
but there's no concept of "This many people complained on the mailing 
list, therefore we are forbidden from carrying out this change".

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr  9 06:47:33 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 01:47:33 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>
Message-ID: <1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 18:37 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
> > If it's written in python (which yum is), then it should be relatively
> > easy to port to Windows compared to C/C++ code.
> 
> yum is, but rpm (which includes rpm-python) is not; that will take
> significantly more effort to put in (e.g., Add/Remove integration).

I don't think Window's Add/Remove is equipped to handle a bazillion
RPMS. Though putting a single "Add/Remove RPMs" entry that starts up
gpk-application or something isn't a bad idea. All of which is moot
until RPM actually works on Win32...
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From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 06:52:43 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 02:52:43 -0400
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 01:47 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 18:37 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
> > > If it's written in python (which yum is), then it should be relatively
> > > easy to port to Windows compared to C/C++ code.
> > 
> > yum is, but rpm (which includes rpm-python) is not; that will take
> > significantly more effort to put in (e.g., Add/Remove integration).
> 
> I don't think Window's Add/Remove is equipped to handle a bazillion
> RPMS. Though putting a single "Add/Remove RPMs" entry that starts up
> gpk-application or something isn't a bad idea. All of which is moot
> until RPM actually works on Win32...

I don't think there would be a bazillion RPMs; most of the
infrastructure is already provided, so it would be things like widget
toolkits, specialized libs (e.g. liboil), and of course apps.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr  9 07:59:40 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 02:59:40 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
Message-ID: <1239263980.5423.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 02:52 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 01:47 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 18:37 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
> > > > If it's written in python (which yum is), then it should be relatively
> > > > easy to port to Windows compared to C/C++ code.
> > > 
> > > yum is, but rpm (which includes rpm-python) is not; that will take
> > > significantly more effort to put in (e.g., Add/Remove integration).
> > 
> > I don't think Window's Add/Remove is equipped to handle a bazillion
> > RPMS. Though putting a single "Add/Remove RPMs" entry that starts up
> > gpk-application or something isn't a bad idea. All of which is moot
> > until RPM actually works on Win32...
> 
> I don't think there would be a bazillion RPMs; most of the
> infrastructure is already provided, so it would be things like widget
> toolkits, specialized libs (e.g. liboil), and of course apps.

Have you looked at the toolchain? GTK requires atk, cairo, glib, pango,
gettext, libpng, jasper. Jasper requires libjpeg. pango requires
freetype and fontconfig. Fontconfig requires expat and iconv. Freetype
libpng and cairo require zlib.

I don't think windows users want to see a crapton of meaningless
libraries in their add/remove dialog. I sure don't. I don't even want to
see them in Fedora...

Though once again, none of this means much until I and/or someone else
gets over the hump of getting rpm running in Win32... :)
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From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 08:02:43 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:02:43 +0200
Subject: rpms/slv2/devel slv2.spec,1.1,1.2
In-Reply-To: <20090408202424.741917011A@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090408202424.741917011A@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090409100243.418f708a@faldor.intranet>

On Wed,  8 Apr 2009 20:24:24 +0000 (UTC), Orcan wrote:

> Author: oget
> 
> Update of /cvs/pkgs/rpms/slv2/devel
> In directory cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com:/tmp/cvs-serv9018
> 
> Modified Files:
> 	slv2.spec 
> Log Message:
> * Wed Apr 08 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget[DOT]fedora[AT]gmail[DOT]com> - 0.6.2-3
> - Change CCFLAGS to CFLAGS

> -export CCFLAGS="%{optflags}"
> +export CFLAGS="%{optflags}"

>  %changelog
> +* Wed Apr 08 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget[DOT]fedora[AT]gmail[DOT]com> - 0.6.2-3
> +- Change CCFLAGS to CFLAGS
> +

That would mean that you did not import the reviewed/approved package
but a different one. Release 2 did you CFLAGS already.



From mefoster at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 08:22:22 2009
From: mefoster at gmail.com (Mary Ellen Foster)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:22:22 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <wyvdpepuvc.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com> 
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com> 
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com> 
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com> 
	<wyvdpepuvc.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <f58861e00904090122j65de6052id5f58a3f7932fd2d@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/9 Alex Lancaster <alexl at users.sourceforge.net>:
> For example, when I looked at that e-mail I saw the keywords
> "monodevelop", "blocking", "ppc" and assumed you were probably talking
> about a single mono package, not the entire stack. ?If I had realized
> exactly what was being proposed, I'm sure I and others would have
> spoken up.

So, concretely: should I or shouldn't I rebuild my failing
mono-dependent package to ExcludeArch: ppc now in devel?

MEF

-- 
Mary Ellen Foster  --  http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/mef/
ICCS, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 08:34:28 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:34:28 +0200
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
Message-ID: <20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>

Just a look at the spec:

On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:30:25 -0700, Carl wrote:

> <http://www.five-ten-sg.com/libpst/packages/libpst.spec> and
> <http://www.five-ten-sg.com/libpst/packages/libpst-0.6.35-1.src.rpm>.

Requires:           %{name}-libs = %{version}-%{release}

In the main utilities package, is this explicit dependency on the
library package really needed?
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Requires


> %description devel
> libpst-devel contains the library links and header fles you'll

s/fles/files/


> %files libs
> %{_libdir}/libpst.so.*

%defattr  is missing here.


> %files devel
> %{_libdir}/libpst.so

%defattr  is missing here.


> %files
[...]
> %docdir %{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}
> %{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}

%_datadir/doc  is in default list of documentation directories.
The %docdir line is redundant.


> %dir %{_includedir}/%{name}-2
> %{_includedir}/%{name}-2/*

Doesn't add any value
and is the same as only

%{_includedir}/%{name}-2/



From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  9 08:37:57 2009
From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:37:57 +0200
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239266277.3279.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Mittwoch, den 08.04.2009, 06:37 -0700 schrieb Toshio Kuratomi:
> Fernando Nasser wrote:
> > That is correct.  All the packages that install things in this
> directory must own it so it will only go away when the last of them is
> uninstalled.
> > 
> > If you find a package that own a file in that directory and does not
> own it, then you should indeed file a bug for a missing ownership.
> > 
> 
> ... or the package has a dependency on one of those packages (usually
> hicolor-icon-theme).  Either is acceptable practice.

Since all of the mentioned programs are gtk based and gtk2 requires
hicolor-icon-theme we have a valid dependency chain here.

Regrads,
Christoph




From mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp  Thu Apr  9 09:06:57 2009
From: mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Mamoru Tasaka)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 18:06:57 +0900
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>

Michael Schwendt wrote, at 04/09/2009 05:34 PM +9:00:
> Just a look at the spec:
> 
> On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:30:25 -0700, Carl wrote:
> 
>> <http://www.five-ten-sg.com/libpst/packages/libpst.spec> and
>> <http://www.five-ten-sg.com/libpst/packages/libpst-0.6.35-1.src.rpm>.
> 
> Requires:           %{name}-libs = %{version}-%{release}
> 
> In the main utilities package, is this explicit dependency on the
> library package really needed?
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Requires

I have not checked this spec file in detail. however: 

When I review packages I always request submitters to write
exact EVR specific dependency between packages rebuilt from the
same srpm and I think this is general for Fedora packages.
ref:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#RequiringBasePackage

Regards,
Mamoru



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Thu Apr  9 09:16:48 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:16:48 +0800
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>	<1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
Message-ID: <49DDBD00.9050405@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/09/2009 02:52 PM, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 01:47 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
>    
>> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 18:37 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
>>      
>>>> If it's written in python (which yum is), then it should be relatively
>>>> easy to port to Windows compared to C/C++ code.
>>>>          
>>> yum is, but rpm (which includes rpm-python) is not; that will take
>>> significantly more effort to put in (e.g., Add/Remove integration).
>>>        
>> I don't think Window's Add/Remove is equipped to handle a bazillion
>> RPMS. Though putting a single "Add/Remove RPMs" entry that starts up
>> gpk-application or something isn't a bad idea. All of which is moot
>> until RPM actually works on Win32...
>>      
>
> I don't think there would be a bazillion RPMs; most of the
> infrastructure is already provided, so it would be things like widget
> toolkits, specialized libs (e.g. liboil), and of course apps.
>
>    
Have you seen a Windows installation's Add/Remove menu after a long 
series of security updates?  The number is staggering.



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Thu Apr  9 09:17:44 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:17:44 +0800
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <1239263980.5423.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>	<1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239263980.5423.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49DDBD38.4070703@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/09/2009 03:59 PM, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 02:52 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
>    
>> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 01:47 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
>>      
>>> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 18:37 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
>>>        
>>>>> If it's written in python (which yum is), then it should be relatively
>>>>> easy to port to Windows compared to C/C++ code.
>>>>>            
>>>> yum is, but rpm (which includes rpm-python) is not; that will take
>>>> significantly more effort to put in (e.g., Add/Remove integration).
>>>>          
>>> I don't think Window's Add/Remove is equipped to handle a bazillion
>>> RPMS. Though putting a single "Add/Remove RPMs" entry that starts up
>>> gpk-application or something isn't a bad idea. All of which is moot
>>> until RPM actually works on Win32...
>>>        
>> I don't think there would be a bazillion RPMs; most of the
>> infrastructure is already provided, so it would be things like widget
>> toolkits, specialized libs (e.g. liboil), and of course apps.
>>      
>
> Have you looked at the toolchain? GTK requires atk, cairo, glib, pango,
> gettext, libpng, jasper. Jasper requires libjpeg. pango requires
> freetype and fontconfig. Fontconfig requires expat and iconv. Freetype
> libpng and cairo require zlib.
>
> I don't think windows users want to see a crapton of meaningless
> libraries in their add/remove dialog. I sure don't. I don't even want to
> see them in Fedora...
>
> Though once again, none of this means much until I and/or someone else
> gets over the hump of getting rpm running in Win32... :)
>    
GTK is already available on Windows, so most of those (don't know about 
all) wouldn't be needed.



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr  9 09:31:47 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 04:31:47 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <49DDBD38.4070703@hidayahonline.org>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239263980.5423.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DDBD38.4070703@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1239269507.5423.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 17:17 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On 04/09/2009 03:59 PM, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > Have you looked at the toolchain? GTK requires atk, cairo, glib, pango,
> > gettext, libpng, jasper. Jasper requires libjpeg. pango requires
> > freetype and fontconfig. Fontconfig requires expat and iconv. Freetype
> > libpng and cairo require zlib.
> >    
> GTK is already available on Windows, so most of those (don't know about 
> all) wouldn't be needed.

I'm looking at the Win32 GTK, it requires all those libraries. I know
because I frickin' spent a month building them all:

http://www.haxxed.com/rpms/
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From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr  9 09:33:19 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 04:33:19 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <49DDBD00.9050405@hidayahonline.org>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<49DDBD00.9050405@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1239269599.5423.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 17:16 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> Have you seen a Windows installation's Add/Remove menu after a long 
> series of security updates?  The number is staggering.

A long, long list which thankfully Microsoft allows you hide...
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From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 09:36:07 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 04:36:07 -0500
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <1239269599.5423.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<49DDBD00.9050405@hidayahonline.org>
	<1239269599.5423.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904090236v3ec9f691w8cc2ddd03da3b599@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 17:16 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > Have you seen a Windows installation's Add/Remove menu after a long
> > series of security updates?  The number is staggering.
>
> A long, long list which thankfully Microsoft allows you hide...
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

Perhaps something similar should be implemented for RPMs, have them treated
like updates, that could be handled through Add/Remove or hidden and can
remove completely by simply removing RPM. Though, that would require a lot
of extra work that no one probably wants to do.... So perhaps in the RPM
uninstaller, it can wipe out the Fedora installed package set along with the
DB and RPM itself.
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From hughsient at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 09:50:52 2009
From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:50:52 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239270652.8811.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 12:54 +0000, Rawhide Report wrote:
> yum-3.2.22-2.fc11
> -----------------
> * Tue Apr 07 2009 Seth Vidal <skvidal at fedoraproject.org> - 3.2.22-2
> - yum-HEAD minus the yumdb patches

This breaks PackageKit for me:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "../backends/yum/yumBackend.py", line 1218, in _get_depends_not_installed
    rc, msgs =  self.yumbase.buildTransaction()
  File "/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/yum/__init__.py", line 711, in buildTransaction
    base.yumUtilsMsg(self.logger.critical, "yum-complete-transaction")
NameError: global name 'base' is not defined

Richard




From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 09:52:05 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:52:05 +0200
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>

On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 18:06:57 +0900, Mamoru wrote:

> > Requires:           %{name}-libs = %{version}-%{release}
> > 
> > In the main utilities package, is this explicit dependency on the
> > library package really needed?
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Requires
> 
> I have not checked this spec file in detail. however: 
> 
> When I review packages I always request submitters to write
> exact EVR specific dependency between packages rebuilt from the
> same srpm and I think this is general for Fedora packages.
> ref:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#RequiringBasePackage

Why?

Here "libpst" would Requires "libpst-libs" with an explicit version in
addition to the automatic SONAME dep, but all other packages that would be
linked to libpst would rely on the automatic SONAME dep.

More and more packagers even let -doc subpackages require the base
package, so one cannot install -doc packages anymore without dependency
bloat [as the base package often pulls in even further packages].

[...]

For library -devel packages there is a rationale. (Some distributors
do the exact opposite and kill explicit versioned deps on base pkgs.)

We want the contents of -devel packages to be strictly in sync with the
corresponding main library packages. Also with regard to %changelog.
Emphasis is on "strictly", because there's an automatic SONAME dependency
in a -devel pkg already. Builds done in mock don't need [and don't benefit
from] the explicit dependency.

On installed systems, however, one can run into problems without an
explicit dependency on the main library [base] package and when using
plain rpmbuild or development tools. This is because adding -devel
packages to the system would not enforce an update of the base packages.
The already installed base packages would satisfy the dependency, but
might contain bugs that cause the developer to tear his hairs till the
base packages are updated, too. Don't expect developers to run a full
"yum update" though, especially not if such an update would change
the development environment heavily (and pull in lots of version upgrades,
for example). So, when someone runs "yum install foo-devel" he shall
get the matching release of "foo" even if an older ABI/API-compatible
one is installed already. The older one may malfunction at run-time,
whereas the matching one contains the needed bug-fixes. Hence the
explicit Requires for -devel package users.



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 09:56:01 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:56:01 +0200
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <1239266277.3279.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
	<1239266277.3279.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090409115601.7abf9f85@faldor.intranet>

On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:37:57 +0200, Christoph wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, den 08.04.2009, 06:37 -0700 schrieb Toshio Kuratomi:
> > Fernando Nasser wrote:
> > > That is correct.  All the packages that install things in this
> > directory must own it so it will only go away when the last of them is
> > uninstalled.
> > > 
> > > If you find a package that own a file in that directory and does not
> > own it, then you should indeed file a bug for a missing ownership.
> > > 
> > 
> > ... or the package has a dependency on one of those packages (usually
> > hicolor-icon-theme).  Either is acceptable practice.
> 
> Since all of the mentioned programs are gtk based and gtk2 requires
> hicolor-icon-theme we have a valid dependency chain here.

And that means, the quoted packages should _not_ own those directories
themselves, because the dirs belong into hicolor-icon-theme which
is included in the dep-chain.



From mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp  Thu Apr  9 10:24:31 2009
From: mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Mamoru Tasaka)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:24:31 +0900
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>

Michael Schwendt wrote, at 04/09/2009 06:52 PM +9:00:
> On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 18:06:57 +0900, Mamoru wrote:
> 
>>> Requires:           %{name}-libs = %{version}-%{release}
>>>
>>> In the main utilities package, is this explicit dependency on the
>>> library package really needed?
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Requires
>> I have not checked this spec file in detail. however: 
>>
>> When I review packages I always request submitters to write
>> exact EVR specific dependency between packages rebuilt from the
>> same srpm and I think this is general for Fedora packages.
>> ref:
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#RequiringBasePackage
> 
> Why?
> 
> Here "libpst" would Requires "libpst-libs" with an explicit version in
> addition to the automatic SONAME dep, but all other packages that would be
> linked to libpst would rely on the automatic SONAME dep.

Because
- As I already said almost all packages do so
  (e.g. rpm -q --requires perl)
- And you explain the reason by yourself below
  (it is ensured that all packages are updated correctly, and
   distinguishing between developers v.s. non-developers does
   not make sense)

> More and more packagers even let -doc subpackages require the base
> package, so one cannot install -doc packages anymore without dependency
> bloat [as the base package often pulls in even further packages].

Um, actually in many cases -doc packages must require the base package
because of the directory ownership issue for which you often file
bugs.

> For library -devel packages there is a rationale. (Some distributors
> do the exact opposite and kill explicit versioned deps on base pkgs.)
> 
> We want the contents of -devel packages to be strictly in sync with the
> corresponding main library packages. Also with regard to %changelog.
> Emphasis is on "strictly", because there's an automatic SONAME dependency
> in a -devel pkg already. Builds done in mock don't need [and don't benefit
> from] the explicit dependency.
> 
> On installed systems, however, one can run into problems without an
> explicit dependency on the main library [base] package and when using
> plain rpmbuild or development tools. This is because adding -devel
> packages to the system would not enforce an update of the base packages.
> The already installed base packages would satisfy the dependency, but
> might contain bugs that cause the developer to tear his hairs till the
> base packages are updated, too. Don't expect developers to run a full
> "yum update" though, especially not if such an update would change
> the development environment heavily (and pull in lots of version upgrades,
> for example). So, when someone runs "yum install foo-devel" he shall
> get the matching release of "foo" even if an older ABI/API-compatible
> one is installed already. The older one may malfunction at run-time,
> whereas the matching one contains the needed bug-fixes. Hence the
> explicit Requires for -devel package users.
> 



From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  9 10:31:09 2009
From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:31:09 +0200
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <20090409115601.7abf9f85@faldor.intranet>
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
	<1239266277.3279.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090409115601.7abf9f85@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <1239273069.3288.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Donnerstag, den 09.04.2009, 11:56 +0200 schrieb Michael Schwendt:
> On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:37:57 +0200, Christoph wrote:
> 
> > Am Mittwoch, den 08.04.2009, 06:37 -0700 schrieb Toshio Kuratomi:
> > > Fernando Nasser wrote:
> > > > That is correct.  All the packages that install things in this
> > > directory must own it so it will only go away when the last of them is
> > > uninstalled.
> > > > 
> > > > If you find a package that own a file in that directory and does not
> > > own it, then you should indeed file a bug for a missing ownership.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > ... or the package has a dependency on one of those packages (usually
> > > hicolor-icon-theme).  Either is acceptable practice.
> > 
> > Since all of the mentioned programs are gtk based and gtk2 requires
> > hicolor-icon-theme we have a valid dependency chain here.
> 
> And that means, the quoted packages should _not_ own those directories
> themselves, because the dirs belong into hicolor-icon-theme which
> is included in the dep-chain.

Exactly, I thought that was obvious.

(Sarcasm: How comes I'm not surprised how 'well' somebody with a
redhat.com address knows our packaging giudelines once again?)

Regards,
Christoph



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 10:42:05 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:42:05 +0100
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
In-Reply-To: <20090408224225.GA24581@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org> <grj57m$ksu$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090408224225.GA24581@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200904091142.05627.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 08 April 2009 23:42:25 Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
> * Matthew Woehlke <mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net> [20090408 23:34]:
> > Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
> >> Has anyone looked at and tested the AllowDeactivateGrabs and
> >> AllowClosedownGrabs options in their xorg.conf instead of blindly
> >> relying on C-A-Bs to shoot the server in the head? If they still have
> >> keyboard interrupt, these options may actually be a better solution
> >> than killing the entire X server.
> >
> > I looked at them while struggling with
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=473825... they didn't work
> > (probably because the actual problem in said bug was not, in fact, a bad
> > grab, but something a little stranger). In the process of investigating
> > them, I learned they had (reportedly) been removed in current X.org.
>
> So it has.
> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/commit/?id=5e43cd28692bc05cac80f38
>b47104a26c0524385
>
> Thanks for pointing that out.

Is there actually any kind of replacement for this? Because I have had to use 
that feature many, many times (usually due to a browser "hanging", and yes, I 
know it would be nice to fix all the bugs, but ...).



From dan at danny.cz  Thu Apr  9 10:44:48 2009
From: dan at danny.cz (Dan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hor=E1k?=)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:44:48 +0200
Subject: gcc more strict about prototypes?
Message-ID: <1239273888.3791.32.camel@eagle.danny.cz>

Hi all,

I have found that multiple package successfully rebuild during the
mass-rebuild cannot be rebuild now because they contain a function
called getline() and its prototype conflicts with getline() from
stdio.h. getline() is only one example, other functions are also
affected (fexecve in star). Please see build logs for details.

z80pass.c:97: error: conflicting types for 'getline'
/usr/include/stdio.h:653: note: previous declaration of 'getline' was here
z80pass.c:168: error: conflicting types for 'getline'
/usr/include/stdio.h:653: note: previous declaration of 'getline' was here

z88dk
https://s390.koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=40683
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1286829

star
https://s390.koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=38057
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1278285
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494213


		Dan




From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 10:47:47 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 12:47:47 +0200
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>

On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:24:31 +0900, Mamoru wrote:

> Michael Schwendt wrote, at 04/09/2009 06:52 PM +9:00:
> > On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 18:06:57 +0900, Mamoru wrote:
> > 
> >>> Requires:           %{name}-libs = %{version}-%{release}
> >>>
> >>> In the main utilities package, is this explicit dependency on the
> >>> library package really needed?
> >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Requires
> >> I have not checked this spec file in detail. however: 
> >>
> >> When I review packages I always request submitters to write
> >> exact EVR specific dependency between packages rebuilt from the
> >> same srpm and I think this is general for Fedora packages.
> >> ref:
> >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#RequiringBasePackage
> > 
> > Why?
> > 
> > Here "libpst" would Requires "libpst-libs" with an explicit version in
> > addition to the automatic SONAME dep, but all other packages that would be
> > linked to libpst would rely on the automatic SONAME dep.
> 
> Because
> - As I already said almost all packages do so
>   (e.g. rpm -q --requires perl)
> - And you explain the reason by yourself below
>   (it is ensured that all packages are updated correctly, and
>    distinguishing between developers v.s. non-developers does
>    not make sense)

I can only explain the reason for the original guidelines, not the
reason why the additional "should" for non-devel subpackages was added.
 
> > More and more packagers even let -doc subpackages require the base
> > package, so one cannot install -doc packages anymore without dependency
> > bloat [as the base package often pulls in even further packages].
> 
> Um, actually in many cases -doc packages must require the base package
> because of the directory ownership issue for which you often file
> bugs.

That can be fixed in the subpackages with %dir, for example.



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 10:57:11 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 12:57:11 +0200
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <1239273069.3288.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
	<1239266277.3279.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090409115601.7abf9f85@faldor.intranet>
	<1239273069.3288.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090409125711.3fab9aab@faldor.intranet>

On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:31:09 +0200, Christoph wrote:

> (Sarcasm: How comes I'm not surprised how 'well' somebody with a
> redhat.com address knows our packaging giudelines once again?)

That's a wrong line of thought. Having a redhat.com address does not
imply knowing a lot about RPM packaging and/or the Fedora Packaging
guidelines.



From jakub at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 11:13:39 2009
From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 13:13:39 +0200
Subject: gcc more strict about prototypes?
In-Reply-To: <1239273888.3791.32.camel@eagle.danny.cz>
References: <1239273888.3791.32.camel@eagle.danny.cz>
Message-ID: <20090409111339.GV4537@tyan-ft48-01.lab.bos.redhat.com>

On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 12:44:48PM +0200, Dan Hor?k wrote:
> I have found that multiple package successfully rebuild during the
> mass-rebuild cannot be rebuild now because they contain a function
> called getline() and its prototype conflicts with getline() from
> stdio.h. getline() is only one example, other functions are also
> affected (fexecve in star). Please see build logs for details.

It is not related to gcc in any way, just the default when you don't
select any feature test macros (see
info libc 'Feature Test Macros'
) changed in F11 from F10, now you get by default _POSIX_C_SOURCE 200809L
stuff, before you got _POSIX_C_SOURCE 200112L.  POSIX 2008 newly contains
many GNU functions, like getline, fexecve, etc.

So, either fix up the packages to use different names of local functions
(preferrable), or use some Feature Test Macro to pick whatever the program
expects to be compiled with.

	Jakub



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr  9 11:25:55 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:55:55 +0530
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49DDDB43.7080106@fedoraproject.org>

psmith wrote:

>>   
> the vote was taken in secret by the xorg folks a while ago, real
> community spirit in action!

You are just totally making up things like that and repeating it
endlessly. Stop doing so.

Rahul



From jwboyer at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 11:47:24 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:47:24 -0400
Subject: Tracking arch specific bugs
In-Reply-To: <20090409002727.GJ16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>
References: <20090409002727.GJ16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>
Message-ID: <20090409114724.GA2883@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>

On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 10:27:27AM +1000, Tony Breeds wrote:
>Newbie alert!
>
>Hi All,
>	What is the bast way to track all bugs in bugzilla that apply to a
>particular arch?   I'm interested in powerpc bugs.
>
>Currently I'mm CC'd on:
>
>Tracking bug for Fedora Core Mac (PPC) support.
>ExcludeArch Tracker for ppc
>ExcludeArch Tracker for ppc64
>
>But these don't seem to cover all the bugs, and seem to be opt-in rather than
>automagically maintained.  Sure I can save a query that shows me all the bugs
>for powerpc but that's a manual process.  What I'd erally like is whenever a new

The ExcludeArch bugs _should_ be used anytime someone excludes an architecture
from a package.  It's a policy we have.  People don't follow it for one reason or
another.

The saved query is sadly the best solution that I'm aware of.

>Also is the an arch-powerpc team? if so how can I join?

You already did when you fixed yaboot.  Missed that memo? :)

More seriously, we do have a "team".  It consists of David Woodhouse, me, and
perhaps a few others.  We should really update the PPC page in the wiki a bit.

josh



From martin.langhoff at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 12:32:42 2009
From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:32:42 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 Hard-coded i386 in .spec Needs Fixing
In-Reply-To: <49AB4524.1040203@redhat.com>
References: <49AB4524.1040203@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <46a038f90904090532k1a7b4ccbu9cbb93d7336e0ad0@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 4:32 AM, Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> wrote:
> Since Fedora 11 switched from i386 to i586 default for x86 32bit packages, a
> number of packages need fixing or inspection. ?All cases below of
> ExclusiveArch i386 need to be fixed. ?If you hard-coded ExclusiveArch i386

Is progress on this being tracked somewhere? Some of these packages
don't seem to be available in the F-11 repos yet -- mkbootdisk,
microcode_ctl.

cheers,



martin
-- 
 martin.langhoff at gmail.com
 martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff



From che666 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 12:40:32 2009
From: che666 at gmail.com (Rudolf Kastl)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:40:32 +0200
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <1239177472.12468.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>
	<grgke9$3u2$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<8278b1b0904071545k1b53c291p716530999a8aeedc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239177472.12468.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <e99d27470904090540g60397cc2tc6ede23c6c4e849b@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/8 Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com>:
> On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 17:45 -0500, King InuYasha wrote:
>
>
>> True, but if there are people interested in it, perhaps some
>> "profiles" could be made for use with cgc and packaged rather than
>> relying on the toolkit since I doubt nVIDIA would release the profiles
>> as open source. It does already contain a generic profile but without
>> any code generation. My other guess is that this could be used to
>> figure out how to implement a Cg compiler front end into LLVM. But,
>> what do I know? I have no real knowledge of programming.
>
> ... Or spend your time and energy on something useful like implementing
> GLSL instead.
>
> ... And actually it appears Cg has become a meta compiler for HLSL
> (DirectX) and GLSL, so Cg is completely useless to us until we have
> working GLSL in our open source drivers anyway. (Not to mention we need
> working OpenGL period...)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cg_(programming_language)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLSL
>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

its like that since ages but actually the generated glsl code is not
really pretty in alot test cases i did.

kind regards,
rudolf kastl



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 12:35:25 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 13:35:25 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 Hard-coded i386 in .spec Needs Fixing
In-Reply-To: <46a038f90904090532k1a7b4ccbu9cbb93d7336e0ad0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49AB4524.1040203@redhat.com>
	<46a038f90904090532k1a7b4ccbu9cbb93d7336e0ad0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904090535k69bc3fcbu6cc325dd5daf0fd0@mail.gmail.com>

>> Since Fedora 11 switched from i386 to i586 default for x86 32bit packages, a
>> number of packages need fixing or inspection. ?All cases below of
>> ExclusiveArch i386 need to be fixed. ?If you hard-coded ExclusiveArch i386
>
> Is progress on this being tracked somewhere? Some of these packages
> don't seem to be available in the F-11 repos yet -- mkbootdisk,
> microcode_ctl.

Is there not a alias that covers all ix86 platforms? Wouldn't that
cover all variants of the intel arch?

Peter



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  9 12:56:24 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (psmith)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:56:24 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DDDB43.7080106@fedoraproject.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
	<49DDDB43.7080106@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49DDF078.4@googlemail.com>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> psmith wrote:
>
>   
>>>   
>>>       
>> the vote was taken in secret by the xorg folks a while ago, real
>> community spirit in action!
>>     
>
> You are just totally making up things like that and repeating it
> endlessly. Stop doing so.
>
> Rahul
>
>   
well it so happens that an xorg dev posted this info, that it was taken 
in a closed vote, in response to someone asking for a link to the logs 
where the decision was made. when i get a minute i'll dig through the 
logs and find it

phil



From rjones at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 13:18:42 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:18:42 +0100
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090409131842.GA24099@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 04:13:09PM -0500, King InuYasha wrote:
> If it's written in python (which yum is), then it should be relatively easy
> to port to Windows compared to C/C++ code.

Ha, you've obviously not tried it.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any
software inside the virtual machine.  Supports Linux and Windows.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-df/



From rjones at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 13:19:48 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:19:48 +0100
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <1239269507.5423.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239263980.5423.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DDBD38.4070703@hidayahonline.org>
	<1239269507.5423.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090409131948.GB24099@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 04:31:47AM -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 17:17 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > On 04/09/2009 03:59 PM, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > > Have you looked at the toolchain? GTK requires atk, cairo, glib, pango,
> > > gettext, libpng, jasper. Jasper requires libjpeg. pango requires
> > > freetype and fontconfig. Fontconfig requires expat and iconv. Freetype
> > > libpng and cairo require zlib.
> > >    
> > GTK is already available on Windows, so most of those (don't know about 
> > all) wouldn't be needed.
> 
> I'm looking at the Win32 GTK, it requires all those libraries. I know
> because I frickin' spent a month building them all:
> 
> http://www.haxxed.com/rpms/

Erm:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Windows_cross_compiler

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines.  Tiny program with many
powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top



From pmatilai at laiskiainen.org  Thu Apr  9 13:27:11 2009
From: pmatilai at laiskiainen.org (Panu Matilainen)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 16:27:11 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Fedora 11 Hard-coded i386 in .spec Needs Fixing
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904090535k69bc3fcbu6cc325dd5daf0fd0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49AB4524.1040203@redhat.com>
	<46a038f90904090532k1a7b4ccbu9cbb93d7336e0ad0@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904090535k69bc3fcbu6cc325dd5daf0fd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0904091626090.4082@gotcha.dreamhost.com>

On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, Peter Robinson wrote:

>>> Since Fedora 11 switched from i386 to i586 default for x86 32bit packages, a
>>> number of packages need fixing or inspection. ?All cases below of
>>> ExclusiveArch i386 need to be fixed. ?If you hard-coded ExclusiveArch i386
>>
>> Is progress on this being tracked somewhere? Some of these packages
>> don't seem to be available in the F-11 repos yet -- mkbootdisk,
>> microcode_ctl.
>
> Is there not a alias that covers all ix86 platforms? Wouldn't that
> cover all variants of the intel arch?

Yes, %{ix86} macro can be used for this.

 	- Panu -



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 13:32:18 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:32:18 -0400
Subject: Fedora, Portable Edition?
In-Reply-To: <20090409131948.GB24099@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239263980.5423.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DDBD38.4070703@hidayahonline.org>
	<1239269507.5423.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090409131948.GB24099@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <1239283938.3841.151.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 14:19 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 04:31:47AM -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > I'm looking at the Win32 GTK, it requires all those libraries. I know
> > because I frickin' spent a month building them all:
> > 
> > http://www.haxxed.com/rpms/
> 
> Erm:
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Windows_cross_compiler

Your stuff is 2008/2009. His stuff is 2006/2007.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From ilyes.gouta at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 13:40:50 2009
From: ilyes.gouta at gmail.com (Ilyes Gouta)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:40:50 +0100
Subject: Building custom spins interactively for embedded targets
Message-ID: <234fa2210904090640v369e5975v2fe8e8fe1c0557aa@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I've been looking recently for a piece of software that would allow me to
build a custom, Fedora based distribution for an embedded system. Basically
I would like the tool to:

1. Select yum meta-packages and gradually populate my distribution (fine
grained selection) from the standard repositories.
2. The tool would automatically pull-in the dependencies
3. Visualize at any moment the associated rpm packages that I'm going to
install (and cross-compile) on my target
4. Identify and determine the srpms that I have to cross-compile to my
target
5. Create the basic build system environment for the cross-compilation,
that's download the srpms to a location and provide a basic rpm repackaging
scripts.
6. GUI based, if possible

Do you know if such a magic tool exists? It would be really awesome.. I'd
like to prepare a Fedora environment for my Beagleboard, which is an OMAP,
ARM based board.

Regards,
Ilyes Gouta.
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From gary at mlbassoc.com  Thu Apr  9 14:04:27 2009
From: gary at mlbassoc.com (Gary Thomas)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 08:04:27 -0600
Subject: Building custom spins interactively for embedded targets
In-Reply-To: <234fa2210904090640v369e5975v2fe8e8fe1c0557aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <234fa2210904090640v369e5975v2fe8e8fe1c0557aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DE006B.3050104@mlbassoc.com>

Ilyes Gouta wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've been looking recently for a piece of software that would allow me
> to build a custom, Fedora based distribution for an embedded system.
> Basically I would like the tool to:
> 
> 1. Select yum meta-packages and gradually populate my distribution (fine
> grained selection) from the standard repositories.
> 2. The tool would automatically pull-in the dependencies
> 3. Visualize at any moment the associated rpm packages that I'm going to
> install (and cross-compile) on my target
> 4. Identify and determine the srpms that I have to cross-compile to my
> target
> 5. Create the basic build system environment for the cross-compilation,
> that's download the srpms to a location and provide a basic rpm
> repackaging scripts.
> 6. GUI based, if possible
> 
> Do you know if such a magic tool exists? It would be really awesome..
> I'd like to prepare a Fedora environment for my Beagleboard, which is an
> OMAP, ARM based board.

Not to poke at the host [this is a Fedora development list], but why?  It
would seem that there are better ways to create the embedded environment.
Your Beagle board has limited RAM and at best a small SD card - hardly the
place for even the smallest Fedora installation.

Fedora, as a distribution, isn't really targeted to such a job.
There are other tools, such as PTXdist, much better set up for this.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
Gary Thomas                 |  Consulting for the
MLB Associates              |    Embedded world
------------------------------------------------------------



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 14:13:44 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:13:44 -0500
Subject: Building custom spins interactively for embedded targets
In-Reply-To: <49DE006B.3050104@mlbassoc.com>
References: <234fa2210904090640v369e5975v2fe8e8fe1c0557aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DE006B.3050104@mlbassoc.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904090713i1770b1belbddc956a8b8351b6@mail.gmail.com>

You should join the fedora-arm mailing list, there are a number of
resources available to get fedora running on the beagleboard. There
are also a number of people on the mailing list who have done this and
if I remember correctly, there is one guy who actually wrote a guide
for it.

More info about the ARM Architecture in respect to Fedora here:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM

-Adam

-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 14:51:56 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:51:56 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <f58861e00904090122j65de6052id5f58a3f7932fd2d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<wyvdpepuvc.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<f58861e00904090122j65de6052id5f58a3f7932fd2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239288716.3969.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 09:22 +0100, Mary Ellen Foster wrote:
> 2009/4/9 Alex Lancaster <alexl at users.sourceforge.net>:
> > For example, when I looked at that e-mail I saw the keywords
> > "monodevelop", "blocking", "ppc" and assumed you were probably talking
> > about a single mono package, not the entire stack.  If I had realized
> > exactly what was being proposed, I'm sure I and others would have
> > spoken up.
> 
> So, concretely: should I or shouldn't I rebuild my failing
> mono-dependent package to ExcludeArch: ppc now in devel?

Please don't.  We should revert the mono build or get a fixed one
instead of churning all the mono dependent packages.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From linville at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 15:13:18 2009
From: linville at redhat.com (John W. Linville)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:13:18 -0400
Subject: RFC: automagically set wireless regulatory domain in cfg80211
In-Reply-To: <1235999077.12026.10.camel@choeger6>
References: <1235999077.12026.10.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <20090409151317.GA5095@redhat.com>

On Mon, Mar 02, 2009 at 02:04:37PM +0100, Christoph H?ger wrote:

> So wouldn't it make sense to ask for the current locale and set the
> parameter in /etc/modprobe.d when updating/installing either the kernel
> or module-init-tools?

F-11 now has a udev rule that attempts to ascertain your regulatory
domain based upon your configured timezone (with an allowance for
manual override in /etc/sysconfig).  Is this working ok for you?

John
-- 
John W. Linville		Linux should be at the core
linville at redhat.com			of your literate lifestyle.



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr  9 15:24:29 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Thu,  9 Apr 2009 15:24:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090409 changes
Message-ID: <20090409152429.D3BED1F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Thu Apr  9 06:15:24 UTC 2009

New package atasm
        6502 cross-assembler
New package chisholm-letterslaughing-fonts
        Letters Laughing is a decorative/LED sans-serif font
New package django-sct
        A collection of Django applications for building community websites
New package gavl
        A library for handling uncompressed audio and video data
New package hyphen-gu
        Gujarati hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-hi
        Hindi hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-kn
        Kannada hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-ml
        Malayalam hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-or
        Oriya hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-pa
        Punjabi hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-sa
        Sanskrit hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-ta
        Tamil hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-te
        Telugu hyphenation rules
New package libhbaapi
        SNIA HBAAPI library
New package mingw32-cairomm
        MinGW Windows C++ API for the cairo graphics library
New package tulrich-tuffy-fonts
        Generic sans font
Updated Packages:

ConsoleKit-0.3.0-7.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.3.0-7
- Allow GetSessions calls in the dbus policy


DeviceKit-disks-004-0.5.20090408git.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 004-0.5.20090408git.fc11
- New snapshot


NetworkManager-0.7.0.100-2.git20090408.fc11
-------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com> - 1:0.7.0.100-2.git20090408
- nm: fix recognition of Option GT Fusion and Option GT HSDPA (nozomi) devices (rh #494069)
- nm: fix handling of spaces in DHCP 'domain-search' option
- nm: fix detection of newer Option 'hso' devices
- nm: ignore low MTUs returned by broken DHCP servers


alexandria-0.6.4.1-5.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.6.4.1-5
- Embed Fedora EVR


amanda-2.6.0p2-7.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Daniel Novotny <dnovotny at redhat.com> 2.6.0p2-7
- the tcpport patch was lost after rebase, adding again
  (#448071, #462681)


amarok-2.0.2-6.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 2.0.2-6
- fix lastfm (kdebug#188678, rhbz#494871)
- fix qtscriptgenerator/qtscriptbindings deps


argyllcms-1.0.3-4.fc11
----------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 1.0.3-4
- Patch for ICC library CVE-2009-0792.


asterisk-sounds-core-1.4.15-1.fc11
----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jeffrey C. Ollie <jeff at ocjtech.us> - 1.4.15-1
- Update to new release of sounds.
- Add sounds encoded with siren7 and siren14.

* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.4.14-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


awn-extras-applets-0.3.2.1-8.fc11
---------------------------------

bash-4.0-6.fc11
---------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Roman Rakus <rrakus at redhat.com> - 4.0-6
- Official upstream patch level 16


cdrdao-1.2.3-0.rc2.1
--------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 1.2.3-0.rc2.1
- Update to latest 1.2.3 release candidate
- Merged with gcdmaster spec file
- Added scripts to manage gcdmaster new schemas file
- Moved desktop file fix into patch
- Added patch to fix gcc 4.4 compile


comix-4.0.4-1.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 4.0.4-1
- 4.0.4, remove upsteamed patch
- Embed Fedora EVR to src/about.py


control-center-2.26.0-3.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-3
- Support touchpads


cvs-1.11.23-4.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.11.23-4
- Disable krb4 support to fix F12 buildroots.


deskbar-applet-2.26.0-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Michel Salim <salimma at fedoraproject.org> - 2.26.0-1
- Update to 2.26.0


drascula-1.0-5.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Lucian Langa <cooly at gnome.eu.org> - 1.0-5
- fix summary
- remove engine data drascula.dat
- remove audio tracks for smaller package (bug #494195)


eclipse-cdt-5.0.2-2.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jeff Johnston <jjohnstn at redhat.com> 5.0.2-2
- Bump release.

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Jeff Johnston <jjohnstn at redhat.com> 5.0.2-1
- Rebase autotools to 1.0.3.
- Rebase CDT to v200903191301 (5.0.2).


eclipse-linuxprofilingframework-0.1.0-4.fc11
--------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Andrew Overholt <overholt at redhat.com> 0.1.0-4
- Don't generate debuginfo (rhbz#494719).


eclipse-valgrind-0.1.0-6.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Elliott Baron <ebaron at redhat.com> 0.1.0-6
- Don't generate debuginfo (rhbz#494719).


fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-3.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> - 1.1.7-3
- Resolves: bug 494980
- Description: setup-ds-admin.pl -u and silent setup complain about ServerIpAddress
- CVS tag FedoraDirSrvAdmin_1_1_7_RC3 FedoraDirSrvAdmin_1_1_7_RC3_20090408


fedora-setup-keyboard-0.3-4.fc11
--------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> 0.3-4
- fedora-setup-keyboard-0.3-merge-terminate.patch: merge xkb options for
  termination.


gnome-bluetooth-2.27.2-2.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.27.2-1
- Upgrade to 2.27.2

* Wed Apr 08 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.27.2-2
- Fix schema installation


gnome-disk-utility-0.3-0.2.20090406git.fc11
-------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 0.3-0.2.20090406git.fc11
- Fix bug in detecting when a PolicyKit error is returned (#494787)


gnome-keyring-2.26.0-4.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-4
- Fix service activation


gnome-session-2.26.0.90-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0.90-1
- Update to 2.26.0.90


gnome-settings-daemon-2.26.0-2.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Support touchpads


gnome-terminal-2.26.0-2.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Incorporate upstream patch to make session saving work better


gphoto2-2.4.5-1.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> 2.4.5-1
- update to 2.4.5


gupnp-vala-0.5.3-5.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> 0.5.3-5
- Rebuild


icon-slicer-0.3-12.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.3-12
- hotspot location ignores the y-coordinate (#494521)


kde-plasma-networkmanagement-0.1-0.9.20090403svn.fc11
-----------------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Ben Boeckel <MathStuf at gmail.com> 0.1-0.9.20090403svn
- Respin snapshot


kdebindings-4.2.2-3.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-3
- enable csharp only on archs supported by mono (ie, drop ppc)


kdegames-4.2.2-6.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.2.2-6
- fix KsirK crash when starting a 2nd local game with Qt 4.5 (#486380)


kdelibs-4.2.2-4.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-4
- upstream patch fix ReadOnlyPart crash for non-local file


libgphoto2-2.4.5-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> 2.4.5-1
- update to 2.4.5
- remove .canontimeout patch, applied upstream


libselinux-2.0.80-1.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> - 2.0.80-1
- Update to upstream 
	* deny_unknown wrapper function from KaiGai Kohei.
	* security_compute_av_flags API from KaiGai Kohei.
	* Netlink socket management and callbacks from KaiGai Kohei.


lv2core-3.0-3.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget[DOT]fedora[AT]gmail[DOT]com> - 3.0-3
- Add Requires: pkgconfig to the -devel subpackage.


m17n-contrib-1.1.9-4.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Parag Nemade <pnemade at redhat.com> -1.1.9-4
- Resolves: rh#494810-[indic][m17n-db][m17n-contrib] ibus .engine files no longer needed for new ibus


m17n-db-1.5.4-2.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Parag Nemade <pnemade at redhat.com> -1.5.4-2
- Resolves: rh#494810-[indic][m17n-db][m17n-contrib] ibus .engine files no longer needed for new ibus


perl-Catalyst-Log-Log4perl-1.03-1.fc11
--------------------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Iain Arnell <iarnell at gmail.com> 1.03-1
- update to latest upstream


perl-Catalyst-Plugin-Session-State-URI-0.09-1.fc11
--------------------------------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Iain Arnell <iarnell at gmail.com> 0.09-1
- update to latest upstream


perl-Catalyst-Plugin-Session-Store-FastMmap-0.07-1.fc11
-------------------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Iain Arnell <iarnell at gmail.com> 0.07-1
- update to latest upstream
- BR MRO::Compat

* Sat Apr 04 2009 Iain Arnell <iarnell at gmail.com> 0.07-1
- update to latest upstream


perl-Verilog-3.121-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Chitlesh Goorah <chitlesh [AT] fedoraproject DOT org> 3.121-1
- upstream v3.121


plymouth-0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3.fc11
----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3
- Drop the version on system-logos requires for now, causing hell with
  other -logos providers not having the same version.


policycoreutils-2.0.62-8.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 2.0.62-8
- Update po files
- Add --equiv command for semanage


pymol-1.2-3.20090408svn3694.fc11
--------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Tim Fenn <fenn at stanford.edu> - 1.2-3.20090408svn3694
- update to 1.2beta5, aka SVN 3694


python-tgcaptcha-0.11-6.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Mar 03 2009 Felix Schwarz <felix.schwarz at oss.schwarz.eu> - 0.11-6
- Use system installed tuffy (patch by Toshio Kuratomi)


python-urlgrabber-3.0.0-15.fc11
-------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org> 3.0.0-15
- Fix progress bars for serial consoles.
- Make C-c behaviour a little nicer.


qca2-2.0.1-1.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Sven Lankes <sven at lank.es> - 2.0.1-1
- new upstream release
- removed 64bit patch - now upstream


rmap-1.2-6.fc11
---------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Marek Mahut <mmahut at fedoraproject.org> - 1.2-6
- Data subpackage for vector rendering data


ruby-aws-0.5.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.5.1-1
- 0.5.1


rubygem-hpricot-0.8.1-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.8.1-1
- 0.8.1


selinux-policy-3.6.12-2.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-1
- Upgrade to latest upstream
- Allow devicekit_disk sys_rawio

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-2
- Make sure unconfined_java_t and unconfined_mono_t create user_tmpfs_t.


skychart-3.0.1.5-6.20081026svn.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Lubomir Rintel (Fedora Astronomy) <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 3.0.1.5-6.20081026svn
- Enable GTK2 UI


slv2-0.6.2-3.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget[DOT]fedora[AT]gmail[DOT]com> - 0.6.2-3
- Change CCFLAGS to CFLAGS


solar-kde-theme-0.1.17-4.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 0.1.17-4
- Drop the version requirement on system-logos, causes problems
  with other logo packages.


stapitrace-2.0.0-0.20090304cvs_alpha.fc11
-----------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Maynard Johnson <maynardj at us.ibm.com>
- Fix build problems; rebase on earlier Performance Inspector
  CVS snapshot to align with RHEL upstream code deadline

* Wed Mar 11 2009 Maynard Johnson <maynardj at us.ibm.com>
- Change to using Systemtap's built-in itrace probe point


star-1.5-4.fc11
---------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Ondrej Vasik <ovasik at redhat.com> 1.5-4
- fix build failure due to symbols conflicting
  with stdio(#494213)


sugar-0.84.5-1.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.5-1
- Remove fixed width from speaker palette #719
- Correctly close the input stream in file transfers #682


sugar-artwork-0.84.1-3.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.1-2
- Rebuild for icon-slicer-0.3-12

* Wed Apr 08 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.1-3
- Another rebuild for icon-slicer-0.3-12


system-config-date-docs-1.0.6-1.fc11
------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.6-1
- pull in updated translations


system-config-nfs-docs-1.0.5-1.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.5-1
- pull in updated translations


system-config-samba-docs-1.0.5-1.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.5-1
- pull in updated translations


system-config-services-docs-1.1.5-1.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.1.5-1
- pull in updated translations


system-config-users-docs-1.0.5-1.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.5-1
- pull in updated translations


tigervnc-0.0.90-0.5.20090403svn3751.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Adam Tkac <atkac redhat com> 0.0.90-0.5.20090403svn3751
- workaround broken fontpath handling in vncserver script (#494801)


winpdb-1.4.6-1.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1.4.6-1
- update to 1.4.6


xdg-utils-1.0.2-7.20081121cvs.fc11
----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.2-7.20081121cvs
- xdg-open: s/kfmclient exec/kfmclient openURL/ (CVE-2009-0068, rh#472010, fdo#19377)


xfig-3.2.5-19.a.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at redhat.com> 3.2.5-19.a
- Fix crash when printing (#494193), thanks to Ian Dall for the patch


xkeyboard-config-1.5-5.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> - 1.5-5
- xkeyboard-config-1.5-terminate.patch: remove Terminate_Server from default
  pc symbols, add terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp.


xorg-x11-drv-keyboard-1.3.2-3.fc11
----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> - 1.3.2-3
- keyboard-1.3.2-terminate.patch: dont handle C-A-B zapping in the driver.


xorg-x11-drv-nouveau-0.0.12-25.20090408gitd8545e6.fc11
------------------------------------------------------

xorg-x11-server-1.6.0-18.fc11
-----------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> 1.6.0-18
- xserver-1.6.0-restore-zap.patch: Restore default off for DontZap.


ypbind-1.20.4-18.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Vitezslav Crhonek <vcrhonek at redhat.com> - 3:1.20.4-18
- Remove LSB Header from init script
  Resolves: #494827

* Wed Mar 18 2009 Vitezslav Crhonek <vcrhonek at redhat.com> - 3:1.20.4-17
- Fix nis.sh SELinux issue
  Resolves: #488865


yum-3.2.22-3.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Seth Vidal <skvidal at fedoraproject.org> - 3.2.22-3
- fix for file:// urls which makes things in pungi/mash work


Summary:
Added Packages: 16
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 75






Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.1.13
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.1.13
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.SqliteClient) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.SqliteClient) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-musicbrainz-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-musicbrainz-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-musicbrainz-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.Sqlite) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires libmono.so.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires libmono.so.0(VER_1)
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-devel-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	beagle-devel-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.Sqlite) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	blam-1.8.5-6.fc11.ppc requires mono-web
	bless-0.6.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	cdcollect-0.6.0-7.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
	cdcollect-0.6.0-7.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.1.17
	cowbell-0.3-0.svn34.4.fc10.ppc requires mono-core
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cecil) = 0:0.6.9.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Drawing) = 0:2.0.0.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.GetOptions) = 0:2.0.0.0
	dbus-sharp-0.63-11.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	evolution-sharp-0.20.0-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	evolution-sharp-0.20.0-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.SqliteClient) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gecko-sharp2-0.13-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gmime-sharp-2.4.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.24.0-3.fc10.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.24.0-3.fc10.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Core) = 0:3.5.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-guitar-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-doc-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	gnome-sharp-2.24.0-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-subtitles-0.8-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-subtitles-0.8-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-subtitles-0.8-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	graphviz-sharp-2.20.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	gsf-sharp-0.8.1-9.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Drawing) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtksourceview2-sharp-1.0-3.svn89788.3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	ice-csharp-3.3.1-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ice-csharp-3.3.1-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ice-csharp-3.3.1-1.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.2
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	lat-1.2.3-6.fc11.ppc requires mono-data
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:0.84.0.0
	mono-cecil-flowanalysis-0.1-0.8.20080409svn100264.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cecil) = 0:0.6.9.0
	mono-cecil-flowanalysis-0.1-0.8.20080409svn100264.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-nat-1.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-nat-1.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-nat-1.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires mono-web
	monosim-1.3.0.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
	monosim-1.3.0.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-web >= 0:1.2.3
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono-web
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	ndesk-dbus-glib-0.4.1-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	notify-sharp-0.4.0-0.6.20080912svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	notify-sharp-doc-0.4.0-0.6.20080912svn.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	sublib-0.9-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	sublib-0.9-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
	themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
	webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice





From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 15:19:41 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 08:19:41 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <f58861e00904090122j65de6052id5f58a3f7932fd2d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<wyvdpepuvc.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<f58861e00904090122j65de6052id5f58a3f7932fd2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DE120D.8080506@gmail.com>

Mary Ellen Foster wrote:

> So, concretely: should I or shouldn't I rebuild my failing
> mono-dependent package to ExcludeArch: ppc now in devel?
> 
> MEF
> 
Don't ExcludeArch.  As Jesse says, we'll have to have mono on ppc in the
final release.  This may mean we revert to an RC or that the current
mono gets fixed for ppc.  Here's what I think we need to do:

I've added the bug report (
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494026 )
to the ppc tracker and the F11blocker tracker.

* Since mono requires itself to bootstrap, we need to get the last mono
version that built on ppc into the buildroot (mono-2_4-9_RC1_fc11) or
get bootstrapping binaries back into the mono package temporarily.
Jesse, can you take care of that?

* Looking at koji, mono stopped building when it jumped from RC1 to RC2.

* We need to try building mono-2_4-9_RC1_fc11 (Bumping the release field
appropriately) to find out if it's a problem that was introduced in the
RC1->RC2 move or something else that changed.  David can you coordinate
this with Paul?

* We can decide where to go from there -- right now we don't have any
build logs telling us where things broke so we have very little
information to guide us.

-Toshio


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From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr  9 15:26:40 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Thu,  9 Apr 2009 15:26:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090409 changes
Message-ID: <20090409152640.ABDB21B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Thu Apr  9 06:15:24 UTC 2009

New package atasm
        6502 cross-assembler
New package chisholm-letterslaughing-fonts
        Letters Laughing is a decorative/LED sans-serif font
New package django-sct
        A collection of Django applications for building community websites
New package gavl
        A library for handling uncompressed audio and video data
New package hyphen-gu
        Gujarati hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-hi
        Hindi hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-kn
        Kannada hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-ml
        Malayalam hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-or
        Oriya hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-pa
        Punjabi hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-sa
        Sanskrit hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-ta
        Tamil hyphenation rules
New package hyphen-te
        Telugu hyphenation rules
New package libhbaapi
        SNIA HBAAPI library
New package mingw32-cairomm
        MinGW Windows C++ API for the cairo graphics library
New package tulrich-tuffy-fonts
        Generic sans font
Updated Packages:

ConsoleKit-0.3.0-7.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.3.0-7
- Allow GetSessions calls in the dbus policy


DeviceKit-disks-004-0.5.20090408git.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 004-0.5.20090408git.fc11
- New snapshot


NetworkManager-0.7.0.100-2.git20090408.fc11
-------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com> - 1:0.7.0.100-2.git20090408
- nm: fix recognition of Option GT Fusion and Option GT HSDPA (nozomi) devices (rh #494069)
- nm: fix handling of spaces in DHCP 'domain-search' option
- nm: fix detection of newer Option 'hso' devices
- nm: ignore low MTUs returned by broken DHCP servers


alexandria-0.6.4.1-5.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.6.4.1-5
- Embed Fedora EVR


amanda-2.6.0p2-7.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Daniel Novotny <dnovotny at redhat.com> 2.6.0p2-7
- the tcpport patch was lost after rebase, adding again
  (#448071, #462681)


amarok-2.0.2-6.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 2.0.2-6
- fix lastfm (kdebug#188678, rhbz#494871)
- fix qtscriptgenerator/qtscriptbindings deps


argyllcms-1.0.3-4.fc11
----------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 1.0.3-4
- Patch for ICC library CVE-2009-0792.


asterisk-sounds-core-1.4.15-1.fc11
----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jeffrey C. Ollie <jeff at ocjtech.us> - 1.4.15-1
- Update to new release of sounds.
- Add sounds encoded with siren7 and siren14.

* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.4.14-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


awn-extras-applets-0.3.2.1-8.fc11
---------------------------------

bash-4.0-6.fc11
---------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Roman Rakus <rrakus at redhat.com> - 4.0-6
- Official upstream patch level 16


cdrdao-1.2.3-0.rc2.1
--------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 1.2.3-0.rc2.1
- Update to latest 1.2.3 release candidate
- Merged with gcdmaster spec file
- Added scripts to manage gcdmaster new schemas file
- Moved desktop file fix into patch
- Added patch to fix gcc 4.4 compile


comix-4.0.4-1.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 4.0.4-1
- 4.0.4, remove upsteamed patch
- Embed Fedora EVR to src/about.py


control-center-2.26.0-3.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-3
- Support touchpads


cvs-1.11.23-4.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.11.23-4
- Disable krb4 support to fix F12 buildroots.


deskbar-applet-2.26.0-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Michel Salim <salimma at fedoraproject.org> - 2.26.0-1
- Update to 2.26.0


drascula-1.0-5.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Lucian Langa <cooly at gnome.eu.org> - 1.0-5
- fix summary
- remove engine data drascula.dat
- remove audio tracks for smaller package (bug #494195)


eclipse-cdt-5.0.2-2.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jeff Johnston <jjohnstn at redhat.com> 5.0.2-2
- Bump release.

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Jeff Johnston <jjohnstn at redhat.com> 5.0.2-1
- Rebase autotools to 1.0.3.
- Rebase CDT to v200903191301 (5.0.2).


eclipse-linuxprofilingframework-0.1.0-4.fc11
--------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Andrew Overholt <overholt at redhat.com> 0.1.0-4
- Don't generate debuginfo (rhbz#494719).


eclipse-valgrind-0.1.0-6.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Elliott Baron <ebaron at redhat.com> 0.1.0-6
- Don't generate debuginfo (rhbz#494719).


fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-3.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> - 1.1.7-3
- Resolves: bug 494980
- Description: setup-ds-admin.pl -u and silent setup complain about ServerIpAddress
- CVS tag FedoraDirSrvAdmin_1_1_7_RC3 FedoraDirSrvAdmin_1_1_7_RC3_20090408


fedora-setup-keyboard-0.3-4.fc11
--------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> 0.3-4
- fedora-setup-keyboard-0.3-merge-terminate.patch: merge xkb options for
  termination.


gnome-bluetooth-2.27.2-2.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.27.2-1
- Upgrade to 2.27.2

* Wed Apr 08 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.27.2-2
- Fix schema installation


gnome-disk-utility-0.3-0.2.20090406git.fc11
-------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 0.3-0.2.20090406git.fc11
- Fix bug in detecting when a PolicyKit error is returned (#494787)


gnome-keyring-2.26.0-4.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-4
- Fix service activation


gnome-session-2.26.0.90-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0.90-1
- Update to 2.26.0.90


gnome-settings-daemon-2.26.0-2.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Support touchpads


gnome-terminal-2.26.0-2.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Incorporate upstream patch to make session saving work better


gphoto2-2.4.5-1.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> 2.4.5-1
- update to 2.4.5


gupnp-vala-0.5.3-5.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> 0.5.3-5
- Rebuild


icon-slicer-0.3-12.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.3-12
- hotspot location ignores the y-coordinate (#494521)


kde-plasma-networkmanagement-0.1-0.9.20090403svn.fc11
-----------------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Ben Boeckel <MathStuf at gmail.com> 0.1-0.9.20090403svn
- Respin snapshot


kdebindings-4.2.2-3.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-3
- enable csharp only on archs supported by mono (ie, drop ppc)


kdegames-4.2.2-6.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.2.2-6
- fix KsirK crash when starting a 2nd local game with Qt 4.5 (#486380)


kdelibs-4.2.2-4.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-4
- upstream patch fix ReadOnlyPart crash for non-local file


libgphoto2-2.4.5-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> 2.4.5-1
- update to 2.4.5
- remove .canontimeout patch, applied upstream


libselinux-2.0.80-1.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> - 2.0.80-1
- Update to upstream 
	* deny_unknown wrapper function from KaiGai Kohei.
	* security_compute_av_flags API from KaiGai Kohei.
	* Netlink socket management and callbacks from KaiGai Kohei.


lv2core-3.0-3.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget[DOT]fedora[AT]gmail[DOT]com> - 3.0-3
- Add Requires: pkgconfig to the -devel subpackage.


m17n-contrib-1.1.9-4.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Parag Nemade <pnemade at redhat.com> -1.1.9-4
- Resolves: rh#494810-[indic][m17n-db][m17n-contrib] ibus .engine files no longer needed for new ibus


m17n-db-1.5.4-2.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Parag Nemade <pnemade at redhat.com> -1.5.4-2
- Resolves: rh#494810-[indic][m17n-db][m17n-contrib] ibus .engine files no longer needed for new ibus


perl-Catalyst-Log-Log4perl-1.03-1.fc11
--------------------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Iain Arnell <iarnell at gmail.com> 1.03-1
- update to latest upstream


perl-Catalyst-Plugin-Session-State-URI-0.09-1.fc11
--------------------------------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Iain Arnell <iarnell at gmail.com> 0.09-1
- update to latest upstream


perl-Catalyst-Plugin-Session-Store-FastMmap-0.07-1.fc11
-------------------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Iain Arnell <iarnell at gmail.com> 0.07-1
- update to latest upstream
- BR MRO::Compat

* Sat Apr 04 2009 Iain Arnell <iarnell at gmail.com> 0.07-1
- update to latest upstream


perl-Verilog-3.121-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Chitlesh Goorah <chitlesh [AT] fedoraproject DOT org> 3.121-1
- upstream v3.121


plymouth-0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3.fc11
----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3
- Drop the version on system-logos requires for now, causing hell with
  other -logos providers not having the same version.


policycoreutils-2.0.62-8.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 2.0.62-8
- Update po files
- Add --equiv command for semanage


pymol-1.2-3.20090408svn3694.fc11
--------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Tim Fenn <fenn at stanford.edu> - 1.2-3.20090408svn3694
- update to 1.2beta5, aka SVN 3694


python-tgcaptcha-0.11-6.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Mar 03 2009 Felix Schwarz <felix.schwarz at oss.schwarz.eu> - 0.11-6
- Use system installed tuffy (patch by Toshio Kuratomi)


python-urlgrabber-3.0.0-15.fc11
-------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org> 3.0.0-15
- Fix progress bars for serial consoles.
- Make C-c behaviour a little nicer.


qca2-2.0.1-1.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Sven Lankes <sven at lank.es> - 2.0.1-1
- new upstream release
- removed 64bit patch - now upstream


rmap-1.2-6.fc11
---------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Marek Mahut <mmahut at fedoraproject.org> - 1.2-6
- Data subpackage for vector rendering data


ruby-aws-0.5.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.5.1-1
- 0.5.1


rubygem-hpricot-0.8.1-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.8.1-1
- 0.8.1


selinux-policy-3.6.12-2.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-1
- Upgrade to latest upstream
- Allow devicekit_disk sys_rawio

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-2
- Make sure unconfined_java_t and unconfined_mono_t create user_tmpfs_t.


skychart-3.0.1.5-6.20081026svn.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Lubomir Rintel (Fedora Astronomy) <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 3.0.1.5-6.20081026svn
- Enable GTK2 UI


slv2-0.6.2-3.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget[DOT]fedora[AT]gmail[DOT]com> - 0.6.2-3
- Change CCFLAGS to CFLAGS


solar-kde-theme-0.1.17-4.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 0.1.17-4
- Drop the version requirement on system-logos, causes problems
  with other logo packages.


stapitrace-2.0.0-0.20090304cvs_alpha.fc11
-----------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Maynard Johnson <maynardj at us.ibm.com>
- Fix build problems; rebase on earlier Performance Inspector
  CVS snapshot to align with RHEL upstream code deadline

* Wed Mar 11 2009 Maynard Johnson <maynardj at us.ibm.com>
- Change to using Systemtap's built-in itrace probe point


star-1.5-4.fc11
---------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Ondrej Vasik <ovasik at redhat.com> 1.5-4
- fix build failure due to symbols conflicting
  with stdio(#494213)


sugar-0.84.5-1.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.5-1
- Remove fixed width from speaker palette #719
- Correctly close the input stream in file transfers #682


sugar-artwork-0.84.1-3.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.1-2
- Rebuild for icon-slicer-0.3-12

* Wed Apr 08 2009 Simon Schampijer <simon at schampijer.de> - 0.84.1-3
- Another rebuild for icon-slicer-0.3-12


system-config-date-docs-1.0.6-1.fc11
------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.6-1
- pull in updated translations


system-config-nfs-docs-1.0.5-1.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.5-1
- pull in updated translations


system-config-samba-docs-1.0.5-1.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.5-1
- pull in updated translations


system-config-services-docs-1.1.5-1.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.1.5-1
- pull in updated translations


system-config-users-docs-1.0.5-1.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.5-1
- pull in updated translations


tigervnc-0.0.90-0.5.20090403svn3751.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Adam Tkac <atkac redhat com> 0.0.90-0.5.20090403svn3751
- workaround broken fontpath handling in vncserver script (#494801)


winpdb-1.4.6-1.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1.4.6-1
- update to 1.4.6


xdg-utils-1.0.2-7.20081121cvs.fc11
----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.2-7.20081121cvs
- xdg-open: s/kfmclient exec/kfmclient openURL/ (CVE-2009-0068, rh#472010, fdo#19377)


xfig-3.2.5-19.a.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at redhat.com> 3.2.5-19.a
- Fix crash when printing (#494193), thanks to Ian Dall for the patch


xkeyboard-config-1.5-5.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> - 1.5-5
- xkeyboard-config-1.5-terminate.patch: remove Terminate_Server from default
  pc symbols, add terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp.


xorg-x11-drv-keyboard-1.3.2-3.fc11
----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> - 1.3.2-3
- keyboard-1.3.2-terminate.patch: dont handle C-A-B zapping in the driver.


xorg-x11-drv-nouveau-0.0.12-25.20090408gitd8545e6.fc11
------------------------------------------------------

xorg-x11-server-1.6.0-18.fc11
-----------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> 1.6.0-18
- xserver-1.6.0-restore-zap.patch: Restore default off for DontZap.


ypbind-1.20.4-18.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Vitezslav Crhonek <vcrhonek at redhat.com> - 3:1.20.4-18
- Remove LSB Header from init script
  Resolves: #494827

* Wed Mar 18 2009 Vitezslav Crhonek <vcrhonek at redhat.com> - 3:1.20.4-17
- Fix nis.sh SELinux issue
  Resolves: #488865


yum-3.2.22-3.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Seth Vidal <skvidal at fedoraproject.org> - 3.2.22-3
- fix for file:// urls which makes things in pungi/mash work


Summary:
Added Packages: 16
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 75






Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.1.13
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	avahi-ui-sharp-0.6.24-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.1.13
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.SqliteClient) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.SqliteClient) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-mirage-0.4.0-5.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-musicbrainz-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-musicbrainz-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	banshee-musicbrainz-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.Sqlite) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires libmono.so.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires libmono.so.0(VER_1)
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-devel-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	beagle-devel-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.Sqlite) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-evolution-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-gnome-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	beagle-thunderbird-0.3.9-6.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	blam-1.8.5-6.fc11.ppc requires mono-web
	bless-0.6.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	cdcollect-0.6.0-7.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
	cdcollect-0.6.0-7.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.1.17
	cowbell-0.3-0.svn34.4.fc10.ppc requires mono-core
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cecil) = 0:0.6.9.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Drawing) = 0:2.0.0.0
	db4o-6.1-5.1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.GetOptions) = 0:2.0.0.0
	dbus-sharp-0.63-11.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	evolution-sharp-0.20.0-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	evolution-sharp-0.20.0-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Data.SqliteClient) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Data) = 0:2.0.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Web) = 0:2.0.0.0
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	flickrnet-2.1.5-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gbrainy-1.00-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gecko-sharp2-0.13-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gmime-sharp-2.4.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.24.0-3.fc10.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.24.0-3.fc10.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Core) = 0:3.5.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-guitar-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-keyring-sharp-doc-1.0.1-0.2.115768svn.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	gnome-sharp-2.24.0-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gnome-subtitles-0.8-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-subtitles-0.8-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	gnome-subtitles-0.8-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	graphviz-sharp-2.20.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	gsf-sharp-0.8.1-9.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Drawing) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cairo) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtk-sharp2-2.12.7-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	gtksourceview2-sharp-1.0-3.svn89788.3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	ice-csharp-3.3.1-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ice-csharp-3.3.1-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ice-csharp-3.3.1-1.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.2
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:2.84.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ipod-sharp-0.8.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	lat-1.2.3-6.fc11.ppc requires mono-data
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.fc11.ppc requires mono(ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib) = 0:0.84.0.0
	mono-cecil-flowanalysis-0.1-0.8.20080409svn100264.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Cecil) = 0:0.6.9.0
	mono-cecil-flowanalysis-0.1-0.8.20080409svn100264.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0
	mono-nat-1.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-nat-1.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-nat-1.0-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	mono-zeroconf-0.7.6-8.fc11.ppc requires mono-web
	monosim-1.3.0.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
	monosim-1.3.0.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-web >= 0:1.2.3
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono-web
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	muine-0.8.10-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	ndesk-dbus-0.6.1a-4.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	ndesk-dbus-glib-0.4.1-4.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	notify-sharp-0.4.0-0.6.20080912svn.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	notify-sharp-doc-0.4.0-0.6.20080912svn.fc11.ppc requires monodoc
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System.Xml) = 0:2.0.0.0
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Posix) = 0:2.0.0.0
	podsleuth-0.6.3-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	sublib-0.9-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	sublib-0.9-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
	taglib-sharp-2.0.3.2-2.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core
	tasque-0.1.8-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-data-sqlite
	themonospot-0.7.1.1-2.fc11.ppc requires mono-core >= 0:1.2.3
	webkit-sharp-0.2-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:1.0.5000.0



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice





From notting at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 15:34:59 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:34:59 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <49DE120D.8080506@gmail.com>
References: <5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<wyvdpepuvc.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<f58861e00904090122j65de6052id5f58a3f7932fd2d@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DE120D.8080506@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090409153459.GA20217@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger at gmail.com) said: 
> * Looking at koji, mono stopped building when it jumped from RC1 to RC2.

Correct. A cursory examination of the diff shows that PPC64 TLS support
was added in RC2, as well as switching the threading support for PPC
(both 32 and 64 bit) from mono's 'linuxthreads' model to an 'nptl' model.
So, that's probably where to start looking, if the old version still
builds OK.

Bill



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 15:55:34 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 08:55:34 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <49DE120D.8080506@gmail.com>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<wyvdpepuvc.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<f58861e00904090122j65de6052id5f58a3f7932fd2d@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DE120D.8080506@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239292534.3969.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 08:19 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> * Since mono requires itself to bootstrap, we need to get the last mono
> version that built on ppc into the buildroot (mono-2_4-9_RC1_fc11) or
> get bootstrapping binaries back into the mono package temporarily.
> Jesse, can you take care of that?

Done.  Just have to wait for a newRepo task to finish that started after
Thu Apr  9 15:54:55 UTC 2009

> 
> * Looking at koji, mono stopped building when it jumped from RC1 to RC2.
> 
> * We need to try building mono-2_4-9_RC1_fc11 (Bumping the release field
> appropriately) to find out if it's a problem that was introduced in the
> RC1->RC2 move or something else that changed.  David can you coordinate
> this with Paul?

If this still isn't done later this evening, I'll do it myself so that
the mono n-v-r correctly increases for tonight's rawhide compose.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 15:57:02 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 11:57:02 -0400
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
Message-ID: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>

glibc-2.9.90-12 is badly broken (bz #494631).  Yesterday it was
replaced with -14, which is less broken.  Today it's back to -12.
How is anyone supposed to get a stable release out when we are churning
experimental versions of core system components?

			regards, tom lane



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 16:24:49 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:24:49 -0700
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 11:57 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> glibc-2.9.90-12 is badly broken (bz #494631).  Yesterday it was
> replaced with -14, which is less broken.  Today it's back to -12.
> How is anyone supposed to get a stable release out when we are churning
> experimental versions of core system components?

All glibc.i586 after beta is broken right now, and due to some other
bugs in play, glibc.i586 was being chosen more often for our build
chroots than glibc.i686 in glibc builds greater than -12.  We untagged
-14 before it could be pushed into rawhide so that our buildroots will
keep working while the glibc folks get a working glibc.i586 package out.
This should all be fixed up today.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From ilyes.gouta at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 16:27:09 2009
From: ilyes.gouta at gmail.com (Ilyes Gouta)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:27:09 +0100
Subject: Building custom spins interactively for embedded targets
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904090713i1770b1belbddc956a8b8351b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <234fa2210904090640v369e5975v2fe8e8fe1c0557aa@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49DE006B.3050104@mlbassoc.com>
	<f12087800904090713i1770b1belbddc956a8b8351b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <234fa2210904090927y74f82470h67e8c819dd33b2e3@mail.gmail.com>

Alright, thank you guys!

The Beagleboard isn't the ultimate goal, having such a tool would be useful
to build easily, visually and efficiently very customized spins even for x86
too. I still want that tool! :)

Regards,
Ilyes Gouta.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Adam Miller <maxamillion at gmail.com> wrote:

> You should join the fedora-arm mailing list, there are a number of
> resources available to get fedora running on the beagleboard. There
> are also a number of people on the mailing list who have done this and
> if I remember correctly, there is one guy who actually wrote a guide
> for it.
>
> More info about the ARM Architecture in respect to Fedora here:
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM
>
> -Adam
>
> --
> http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> /\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 16:30:32 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:30:32 -0700
Subject: exposing packages to users (was Re: Fedora, Portable Edition?)
In-Reply-To: <1239263980.5423.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239263980.5423.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239294632.4379.18.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 02:59 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:

> I don't think windows users want to see a crapton of meaningless
> libraries in their add/remove dialog. I sure don't. I don't even want to
> see them in Fedora...

A couple of releases ago, Mandriva implemented a filter in rpmdrake (the
graphical package management tool) that shows only packages with a GUI
(basically, anything with an entry in the menus), and made it the
default view.

After enabling Kat by default somewhere back around 2006.0, that was
probably the second most unpopular change *ever*. Ever since then it's
been one of the #1 'gotchas' on the forums.

Sadly, people often wind up having to mess with 'system' packages to get
what they want to do done, it seems...

Having said that, Ubuntu has a slightly different approach to the same
problem - it has a lobotomized, Windows-style 'Add / Remove Programs'
application, and then it has synaptic for the full-fat stuff. I don't
know what user reaction to that has been, I don't follow the U community
very closely, but it's an alternative.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From ilyes.gouta at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 16:31:33 2009
From: ilyes.gouta at gmail.com (Ilyes Gouta)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:31:33 +0100
Subject: Building custom spins interactively for embedded targets
In-Reply-To: <49DE006B.3050104@mlbassoc.com>
References: <234fa2210904090640v369e5975v2fe8e8fe1c0557aa@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49DE006B.3050104@mlbassoc.com>
Message-ID: <234fa2210904090931w2e019e99w98f7fdabc4d1f8ea@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, I intend to setup an NFS filesystem that the Beagleboard will
access through Ethernet. All what I need is to have the selected Fedora
packages cross-compiled to the OMAP/ARM architecture. I want to inherit the
structure, the packaging, the organization of Fedora and make it available
for my embedded system.

Regards,
Ilyes Gouta.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Gary Thomas <gary at mlbassoc.com> wrote:

> Ilyes Gouta wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've been looking recently for a piece of software that would allow me
> > to build a custom, Fedora based distribution for an embedded system.
> > Basically I would like the tool to:
> >
> > 1. Select yum meta-packages and gradually populate my distribution (fine
> > grained selection) from the standard repositories.
> > 2. The tool would automatically pull-in the dependencies
> > 3. Visualize at any moment the associated rpm packages that I'm going to
> > install (and cross-compile) on my target
> > 4. Identify and determine the srpms that I have to cross-compile to my
> > target
> > 5. Create the basic build system environment for the cross-compilation,
> > that's download the srpms to a location and provide a basic rpm
> > repackaging scripts.
> > 6. GUI based, if possible
> >
> > Do you know if such a magic tool exists? It would be really awesome..
> > I'd like to prepare a Fedora environment for my Beagleboard, which is an
> > OMAP, ARM based board.
>
> Not to poke at the host [this is a Fedora development list], but why?  It
> would seem that there are better ways to create the embedded environment.
> Your Beagle board has limited RAM and at best a small SD card - hardly the
> place for even the smallest Fedora installation.
>
> Fedora, as a distribution, isn't really targeted to such a job.
> There are other tools, such as PTXdist, much better set up for this.
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary Thomas                 |  Consulting for the
> MLB Associates              |    Embedded world
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From itamar at ispbrasil.com.br  Thu Apr  9 16:37:18 2009
From: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br (Itamar Reis Peixoto)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 13:37:18 -0300
Subject: system-config-lvm sources
Message-ID: <d3ceea380904090937j1927a781y6f5f54ba3573a9ab@mail.gmail.com>

how to get the system-config-lvm sources ?

according with

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SystemConfig/lvm

doesn't work

$ export CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous at rhlinux.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS
$ cvs -z3 login
(hit enter)
$ cvs -z3 co system-config-lvm


any help ?


-- 
------------

Itamar Reis Peixoto

e-mail/msn: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
sip: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
skype: itamarjp
icq: 81053601
+55 11 4063 5033
+55 34 3221 8599



From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 16:44:45 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:44:45 -0400
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide? 
In-Reply-To: <1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> All glibc.i586 after beta is broken right now, and due to some other
> bugs in play, glibc.i586 was being chosen more often for our build
> chroots than glibc.i686 in glibc builds greater than -12.  We untagged
> -14 before it could be pushed into rawhide so that our buildroots will
> keep working while the glibc folks get a working glibc.i586 package out.
> This should all be fixed up today.

Would you consider reverting glibc to something older than -12?
Frankly, I don't trust anything that's been built since that went
into the buildroots, and the longer it's live the more likely we
are to regret it.

			regards, tom lane



From paul at xelerance.com  Thu Apr  9 16:46:53 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 12:46:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: system-config-lvm sources
In-Reply-To: <d3ceea380904090937j1927a781y6f5f54ba3573a9ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d3ceea380904090937j1927a781y6f5f54ba3573a9ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904091244360.26816@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, Itamar Reis Peixoto wrote:

> how to get the system-config-lvm sources ?

yumdownloader --source system-config-lvm

> according with
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SystemConfig/lvm
>
> doesn't work
>
> $ export CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous at rhlinux.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS

I use cvs.fedora.redhat.com, but i am not sure if that is because I'm a
packager. But my cvs checkout worked fine.

Paul



From carl at five-ten-sg.com  Thu Apr  9 17:08:33 2009
From: carl at five-ten-sg.com (Carl Byington)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:08:33 -0700
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Thanks to everyone for their comments. Thinking about this dependency
from the main libpst package to the -libs subpackage, it seems that we
should have

Requires: %{name}-libs >= %{version}-%{release}

in the main package. Currently, the soname is libpst.so.2 with libtool
- -version-info 2:0:0 and library name libpst.so.2.0.0. If we add some
interfaces, but don't change any existing interfaces, then
- -version-info goes to 3:0:1 and the soname stays at libpst.so.2 and
the
library name is libpst.so.2.1.0. We need some mechanism to capture that
dependency. Yes, this version of the executables needs libpst.so.2, but
it won't run with the original libpst.so.2.0.0. How is this sort of
dependency handled in other packages? I think the above Requires solves
that within this package.

It would also be nice to allow installing multiple (matching) -devel
and -libs packages for different major versions.

<http://www106.pair.com/rhp/parallel.html>

Is there anything (else) that needs to be done to enable parallel
installs for this package? The -devel include files already go into
/usr/include/libpst-2 where the 2 comes from the SONAME. 

If we change interfaces, with -version-info up to 4:0:0, soname is
libpst.so.4, library name is libpst.so.4.0.0, and the headers go into
/usr/include/libpst-4. Is there anything here that would prevent
parallel installs for the so.2 and so.4 versions?

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From itamar at ispbrasil.com.br  Thu Apr  9 17:11:11 2009
From: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br (Itamar Reis Peixoto)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:11:11 -0300
Subject: system-config-lvm sources
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904091244360.26816@newtla.xelerance.com>
References: <d3ceea380904090937j1927a781y6f5f54ba3573a9ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904091244360.26816@newtla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <d3ceea380904091011n59554afdl331b1827680359bd@mail.gmail.com>

I can download it using fedora-cvs system-config-lvm

but where are the upstream sources ?

Can you understand my question ?



On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Paul Wouters <paul at xelerance.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, Itamar Reis Peixoto wrote:
>
>> how to get the system-config-lvm sources ?
>
> yumdownloader --source system-config-lvm
>
>> according with
>>
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SystemConfig/lvm
>>
>> doesn't work
>>
>> $ export CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous at rhlinux.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS
>
> I use cvs.fedora.redhat.com, but i am not sure if that is because I'm a
> packager. But my cvs checkout worked fine.
>
> Paul
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
------------

Itamar Reis Peixoto

e-mail/msn: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
sip: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
skype: itamarjp
icq: 81053601
+55 11 4063 5033
+55 34 3221 8599



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 17:13:50 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:13:50 -0700
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239297230.3969.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 12:44 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Would you consider reverting glibc to something older than -12?
> Frankly, I don't trust anything that's been built since that went
> into the buildroots, and the longer it's live the more likely we
> are to regret it.

The glibc folks haven't indicated a need for that yet.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 17:18:30 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:18:30 -0400
Subject: review request for libpst 
In-Reply-To: <1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com> 
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>
	<1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
Message-ID: <29764.1239297510@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Carl Byington <carl at five-ten-sg.com> writes:
> Thanks to everyone for their comments. Thinking about this dependency
> from the main libpst package to the -libs subpackage, it seems that we
> should have

> Requires: %{name}-libs >= %{version}-%{release}

> in the main package.

I think the standard recommendation is to use a requires like this with
"=", not ">=", to bind together different subpackages.  It's almost
never a good idea to let non-matching subpackages be installed together
... unless you would like to take on the burden of testing all such
combinations to see if they work.

There is a packaging guideline about this IIRC.  Have you read
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines

			regards, tom lane



From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 17:19:50 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:19:50 -0400
Subject: system-config-lvm sources 
In-Reply-To: <d3ceea380904091011n59554afdl331b1827680359bd@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <d3ceea380904090937j1927a781y6f5f54ba3573a9ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904091244360.26816@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d3ceea380904091011n59554afdl331b1827680359bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29792.1239297590@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Itamar Reis Peixoto <itamar at ispbrasil.com.br> writes:
> I can download it using fedora-cvs system-config-lvm
> but where are the upstream sources ?

In the lookaside repository.  "make sources" in the per-branch
subdirectory should pull them down.

			regards, tom lane



From itamar at ispbrasil.com.br  Thu Apr  9 17:24:49 2009
From: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br (Itamar Reis Peixoto)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:24:49 -0300
Subject: system-config-lvm sources
In-Reply-To: <29792.1239297590@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <d3ceea380904090937j1927a781y6f5f54ba3573a9ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904091244360.26816@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d3ceea380904091011n59554afdl331b1827680359bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<29792.1239297590@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <d3ceea380904091024t479616a9u474e1fe1f597489@mail.gmail.com>

thats true,

there are  a cvs, git, svn or something to get the lasted sources ?
where are the development version ?

how to send a patch to system-config-lvm ?



On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
> Itamar Reis Peixoto <itamar at ispbrasil.com.br> writes:
>> I can download it using fedora-cvs system-config-lvm
>> but where are the upstream sources ?
>
> In the lookaside repository. ?"make sources" in the per-branch
> subdirectory should pull them down.
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?regards, tom lane
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
------------

Itamar Reis Peixoto

e-mail/msn: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
sip: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
skype: itamarjp
icq: 81053601
+55 11 4063 5033
+55 34 3221 8599



From zaitcev at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 17:24:48 2009
From: zaitcev at redhat.com (Pete Zaitcev)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:24:48 -0600
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>

On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:44:45 -0400, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:

> Would you consider reverting glibc to something older than -12?
> Frankly, I don't trust anything that's been built since that went
> into the buildroots, and the longer it's live the more likely we
> are to regret it.

I am not sure that the drama is so epic. Here's my main laptop
on which I'm typing this:

[zaitcev at niphredil ~]$ rpm -q glibc
glibc-2.9.90-12.x86_64
glibc-2.9.90-12.i686
[zaitcev at niphredil ~]$ 

I did not know that glibc was "broken" until you mentioned it.
Everything works just fine... except Emacs apparently. To be sure,
it's an important application for some users, but I would not say
that "anything that's built" is untrustworthy. My code has good
"make distcheck" and it passes. I think you might be taking it
too far.

-- Pete



From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 17:31:22 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:31:22 -0400
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide? 
In-Reply-To: <20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com> 
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Pete Zaitcev <zaitcev at redhat.com> writes:
> On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:44:45 -0400, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
>> Would you consider reverting glibc to something older than -12?
>> Frankly, I don't trust anything that's been built since that went
>> into the buildroots, and the longer it's live the more likely we
>> are to regret it.

> I did not know that glibc was "broken" until you mentioned it.
> Everything works just fine... except Emacs apparently.

And mysql, and perhaps rpm according to Panu, and we know not what else
that has not got thorough regression tests executed as part of its build.

			regards, tom lane



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 17:37:37 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:37:37 -0600
Subject: Speech recognition
In-Reply-To: <49DCB39F.6000904@grad.com>
References: <870180fe0903251544h1bf98930h17a037a5225338ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090326001722.GB98926@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<870180fe0903251946s59ab8e56q31e58f28dbc36f23@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCB39F.6000904@grad.com>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904091037u6e2642a2m1ad2b0fb4b5bb851@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Hedayat Vatankhah <hedayat at grad.com> wrote:
> I also think that making the software available has a considerable effect in
> encouraging people to generate free data. When speech recognition software
> is available, community will be encouraged to generate data to make it more
> robust. But people will not generate required data when they can use it
> already!
>
> I have not much free time, but I'm interested to help you in this direction
> if I can. :)
>
> Good luck,
> Hedayat

Thanks!  To be honest, the biggest problem I am having right now is
sorting through the licenses attached (or not!) to the various pieces
of software I'm considering.  I'm finding code with no clear license,
code with open source licenses that depends on commercial libraries,
code with licenses that include "no commercial use" clauses, etc.  I'm
still hopeful I can come up with a usable set of software by the time
I'm done....

I'm also firing off emails as I encounter license problems, to let
people know why I will NOT be using their software.  Whether that will
accomplish anything remains to be seen.
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/
http://jjames.fedorapeople.org/



From tibbs at math.uh.edu  Thu Apr  9 17:54:43 2009
From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:54:43 -0500
Subject: system-config-lvm sources
In-Reply-To: <d3ceea380904091024t479616a9u474e1fe1f597489@mail.gmail.com>
	(Itamar Reis Peixoto's message of "Thu\,
	9 Apr 2009 14\:24\:49 -0300")
References: <d3ceea380904090937j1927a781y6f5f54ba3573a9ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904091244360.26816@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d3ceea380904091011n59554afdl331b1827680359bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<29792.1239297590@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<d3ceea380904091024t479616a9u474e1fe1f597489@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ufay6u9ww4c.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>

>>>>> "IRP" == Itamar Reis Peixoto <itamar at ispbrasil.com.br> writes:

IRP> thats true, there are a cvs, git, svn or something to get the
IRP> lasted sources ? where are the development version ?
IRP> how to send a patch to system-config-lvm ?

For what it's worth, system-config-lvm is at least in violation of
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/SourceURL and should not have
passed its merge review as-is.  The merge review ticket is
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=226462

 - J<



From mclasen at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 17:57:53 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:57:53 -0400
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239299873.3115.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 06:37 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> Fernando Nasser wrote:
> > That is correct.  All the packages that install things in this directory must own it so it will only go away when the last of them is uninstalled.
> > 
> > If you find a package that own a file in that directory and does not own it, then you should indeed file a bug for a missing ownership.
> > 
> 
> ... or the package has a dependency on one of those packages (usually
> hicolor-icon-theme).  Either is acceptable practice.

hicolor-icon-theme is the owner of that directory. 
All the others are just squatters.



From lemenkov at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 18:07:24 2009
From: lemenkov at gmail.com (Peter Lemenkov)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 22:07:24 +0400
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <20090409125711.3fab9aab@faldor.intranet>
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
	<1239266277.3279.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090409115601.7abf9f85@faldor.intranet>
	<1239273069.3288.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090409125711.3fab9aab@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <adf480660904091107w1b88eaa5g98694ea7ce8e5ed5@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/9 Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at gmail.com>:
> On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:31:09 +0200, Christoph wrote:
>
>> (Sarcasm: How comes I'm not surprised how 'well' somebody with a
>> redhat.com address knows our packaging giudelines once again?)
>
> That's a wrong line of thought. Having a redhat.com address does not
> imply knowing a lot about RPM packaging and/or the Fedora Packaging
> guidelines.

Unfortunately, everyone from Redhat staff has a lot of privileges over
other packagers. AFAIK they automatically gain ability to touch
other's packages, e.g. everyone with a redhat.com address has a
provenpackager's access.

Correct me if I wrong.

-- 
With best regards!



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr  9 18:07:30 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:07:30 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <e99d27470904090540g60397cc2tc6ede23c6c4e849b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>
	<grgke9$3u2$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<8278b1b0904071545k1b53c291p716530999a8aeedc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239177472.12468.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e99d27470904090540g60397cc2tc6ede23c6c4e849b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239300450.16645.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 14:40 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote:
> its like that since ages but actually the generated glsl code is not
> really pretty in alot test cases i did.

Yes, near as I can tell, Cg is really primarily used as a code
obfuscation method. Something that is fundamentally at odds with open
source. So I have no idea why any self respecting open source project
would even want to touch it.

Also, its rumored that it favors nvidia. Nvidia's drivers compile Cg to
native Nvidia binary code, and output sub-par GLSL/HLSL on everything
else.

Crystal Space uses Cg. WHY? They don't even use Direct3D. The only
justification for Cg instead of GLSL is if you're wanting to share
shaders across OpenGL and Direct3D, in which case writing in HLSL and
using ATI's tool is a non-proprietary solution. (Now how about a
GLSL2HLSL compiler...)
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 18:09:50 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 11:09:50 -0700
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239300590.3969.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 13:31 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> And mysql, and perhaps rpm according to Panu, and we know not what else
> that has not got thorough regression tests executed as part of its build.

Those aren't broken themselves, instead when used with glibc.i586 you
get memory corruption from memove which can manifest itself in many
ways.  These packages won't need to be rebuilt at all, they'll start
working again with a fixed glibc.i586.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From carl at five-ten-sg.com  Thu Apr  9 18:10:07 2009
From: carl at five-ten-sg.com (Carl Byington)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 11:10:07 -0700
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <29764.1239297510@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>
	<1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<29764.1239297510@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239300607.26592.48.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>

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> I think the standard recommendation is to use a requires like this
> with
> "=", not ">=", to bind together different subpackages.  It's almost
> never a good idea to let non-matching subpackages be installed
> together
> ... unless you would like to take on the burden of testing all such
> combinations to see if they work.

But if the main executables require an exact version match to the -libs
package, then we cannot do parallel install of multiple (matching)
- -devel,-libs packages, while leaving the executables installed and
using the older version of the -libs package.

None of this matters if fedora packaging in general does not support
parallel installs. If that is the case, then yes, we can use '=' in
that Requires. 


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From tibbs at math.uh.edu  Thu Apr  9 18:15:12 2009
From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:15:12 -0500
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <adf480660904091107w1b88eaa5g98694ea7ce8e5ed5@mail.gmail.com>
	(Peter Lemenkov's message of "Thu\, 9 Apr 2009 22\:07\:24 +0400")
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
	<1239266277.3279.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090409115601.7abf9f85@faldor.intranet>
	<1239273069.3288.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090409125711.3fab9aab@faldor.intranet>
	<adf480660904091107w1b88eaa5g98694ea7ce8e5ed5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ufatz4xwv67.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>

>>>>> "PL" == Peter Lemenkov <lemenkov at gmail.com> writes:

PL> Correct me if I wrong.

You are wrong.

 - J<



From zaitcev at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 18:15:40 2009
From: zaitcev at redhat.com (Pete Zaitcev)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 12:15:40 -0600
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <20090409121540.ced6cf32.zaitcev@redhat.com>

On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:31:22 -0400, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
> Pete Zaitcev <zaitcev at redhat.com> writes:
> > On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:44:45 -0400, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:

> > I did not know that glibc was "broken" until you mentioned it.
> > Everything works just fine... except Emacs apparently.
> 
> And mysql, and perhaps rpm according to Panu, and we know not what else
> that has not got thorough regression tests executed as part of its build.

Indeed, rpm breakage sounds pretty bad.

-- Pete



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 18:47:16 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 20:47:16 +0200
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>
	<1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
Message-ID: <20090409204716.2be21512@faldor.intranet>

On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:08:33 -0700, Carl wrote:

> Thanks to everyone for their comments. Thinking about this dependency
> from the main libpst package to the -libs subpackage, it seems that we
> should have
> 
> Requires: %{name}-libs >= %{version}-%{release}
>
> in the main package.

That would not be more accurate, because you could not guarantee that
_any_ libpst-libs package with a higher %version would be compatible.
Especially not if %version has nothing to do with the libtool library
version.

Since the tools/apps in libpst main pkg are linked with the library
from within the same src.rpm, you rather want to depend on the
exact %version-%release of the -libs package.

Actually, this is likely the reason for the subpackage Requires
guidelines. ;) Non-library packages are not affected.

External packages linked with libpst are not affected either and can
rely on the automatic SONAME dependency.

> Currently, the soname is libpst.so.2 with libtool
> - -version-info 2:0:0 and library name libpst.so.2.0.0. If we add some
> interfaces, but don't change any existing interfaces, then
> - -version-info goes to 3:0:1 and the soname stays at libpst.so.2 and
> the
> library name is libpst.so.2.1.0. We need some mechanism to capture that
> dependency. Yes, this version of the executables needs libpst.so.2, but
> it won't run with the original libpst.so.2.0.0. How is this sort of
> dependency handled in other packages? I think the above Requires solves
> that within this package.

The latest published package release of libpst implements the
needed library interfaces for anything that depends on libpst.so.2.
Older release of libpst are not available anymore.

> It would also be nice to allow installing multiple (matching) -devel
> and -libs packages for different major versions.

That would only be possible with changed package %name, relocated
install locations. Or else the packages would conflict or upgrade
eachother.
> 
> If we change interfaces, with -version-info up to 4:0:0, soname is
> libpst.so.4, library name is libpst.so.4.0.0, and the headers go into
> /usr/include/libpst-4. Is there anything here that would prevent
> parallel installs for the so.2 and so.4 versions?

Yes, the libpst.so symlink from the -devel pkgs.



From pmatilai at laiskiainen.org  Thu Apr  9 18:54:05 2009
From: pmatilai at laiskiainen.org (Panu Matilainen)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 21:54:05 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <20090409121540.ced6cf32.zaitcev@redhat.com>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409121540.ced6cf32.zaitcev@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904092151520.17897@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>

On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, Pete Zaitcev wrote:

> On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:31:22 -0400, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
>> Pete Zaitcev <zaitcev at redhat.com> writes:
>>> On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:44:45 -0400, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>>> I did not know that glibc was "broken" until you mentioned it.
>>> Everything works just fine... except Emacs apparently.
>>
>> And mysql, and perhaps rpm according to Panu, and we know not what else
>> that has not got thorough regression tests executed as part of its build.
>
> Indeed, rpm breakage sounds pretty bad.

In this case the breakage was bad enough I seriously doubt anybody has 
managed to build anything with rpm using the broken glibc.i586 versions. 
Rpm fails to even read its configuration in that case, never mind actually 
building something.

 	- Panu -



From kbaxley at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 19:04:05 2009
From: kbaxley at redhat.com (Kent Baxley)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:04:05 -0400
Subject: conman spec details for proper uconfigured behavior
Message-ID: <20090409150405.68407b42@dhcp243-36.rdu.redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm passing on a question on behalf of a customer at one of the
national laboratories regarding some "best practices" packaging
guidelines.  The package in question is a serial console management
program called 'conman':

When the conman rpm is installed, a default "example" config
is installed in /etc/conman.conf (ie, the entire file consists
of comments).  And the conman.spec has a %post stanza that does
something like:

  /sbin/chkconfig --add conman

in order to have conmand started at boot.  Most daemons in Red Hat
seem to follow this convention.  But if conman isn't configured,
the following output is displayed at boot:

  Starting ConMan: conmandERROR:     Configuration "/etc/conman.conf"
  has no consoles defined
                                                             [FAILED]

The beginning and end of the above output comes from the init script,
whereas the ERROR msg in the chewy center comes from conmand's stderr.
Since the default conman.conf only has comments, there are no consoles
defined and conmand exits with an error.

This seems reasonable , but some users have stated that they would
like to have these error messages at boot suppressed if the package
has not been configured.

After some testing, it looks as if the best alternative they've come up
with is to keep:

  %post
  /sbin/chkconfig --add conman

And change the initscript from:

  # chkconfig: 2345 95 5

to something like:

  # chkconfig: - 95 5

(along with removing the LSB Default-Start & Default-Stop lines).

This way, chkconfig still registers the service and creates the K* symlinks,
but no S* symlinks are created and the daemon won't be started by default.
To enable it at boot, the admin must "chkconfig conman on".  

Some other options that have been tossed around are:

Simply not call "chkconfig --add" in %post and require the admin to
manually do this when configuring the package. Most of the daemons in
Red Hat / Fedora perform a chkconfig in %post, so this seems somewhat
atypical.

Another option is to install /etc/conman.conf.example, and have the
init script immediately exit with an error #6 (as defined by LSB)
if /etc/conman.conf does not exist -- no success or failed messages
or anything.  Thus, an unconfigured package would produce no output.
In the %files stanza, they would then have something like:

  %files
  %{_sysconfdir}/conman.conf.example
  %ghost %config(missingok) %{_sysconfdir}/conman.conf

This way, "rpm -qc conman" still lists /etc/conman.conf as a config
file.

Other than the 3 options above, is there a better way to configure
the package to supress the error messages at boot if conman hasn't
been configured?

Thanks.


- -- 
*************
Kent Baxley
Technical Account Manager
Red Hat, Inc.
kbaxley at redhat.com
gpg key id: E281242D
http://pgp.mit.edu

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From drepper at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 19:08:27 2009
From: drepper at redhat.com (Ulrich Drepper)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:08:27 -0700
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904092151520.17897@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<20090409121540.ced6cf32.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904092151520.17897@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>
Message-ID: <49DE47AB.10701@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Panu Matilainen wrote:
> In this case the breakage was bad enough I seriously doubt anybody has
> managed to build anything with rpm using the broken glibc.i586 versions.
> Rpm fails to even read its configuration in that case, never mind
> actually building something.

If you want to complain then to the idiots who made the decision to go
with .i586 instead of .i686 for x86 binaries.  This is exactly the kind
of problem I've been warning about all along.  Using the i586 target
stresses code paths (in this case in gcc) which are hardly ever used
since nobody cares for this target in general.

- --
? Ulrich Drepper ? Red Hat, Inc. ? 444 Castro St ? Mountain View, CA ?
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From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 19:29:44 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 15:29:44 -0400
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide? 
In-Reply-To: <1239300590.3969.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239300590.3969.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4073.1239305384@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 13:31 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>> And mysql, and perhaps rpm according to Panu, and we know not what else
>> that has not got thorough regression tests executed as part of its build.

> Those aren't broken themselves, instead when used with glibc.i586 you
> get memory corruption from memove which can manifest itself in many
> ways.  These packages won't need to be rebuilt at all, they'll start
> working again with a fixed glibc.i586.

You are assuming that the broken glibc hasn't caused any undetected
errors during building of packages.  Given that it can have odd effects
on the execution of just about any tool used during a build, I find
your optimism 100% unjustified.

Even without that consideration, you are misinformed if you think that
only i586 is broken.  The mysql failures I was seeing manifested on
x86_64 but not the other three platforms.

			regards, tom lane



From jonathanb at ami.com  Thu Apr  9 19:31:07 2009
From: jonathanb at ami.com (jonathan barkelew)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:31:07 -0400
Subject: UEFI Compatibility Issues in Fedora 10
In-Reply-To: <49DB8C3B.8030906@redhat.com>
References: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE509420F36@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
	<49DB8C3B.8030906@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE509420F3E@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>

> I will be testing the rawhide kernel this Thursday as part of the
> testing day.
> I'll let you know whether I still see the problem.

In the words of Thomas Edison, "Sweet! This thing works!"

Tried to test kexec, but I couldn't figure out its intricacies. I might
give this another try later. For now, your patches fix the kernel panic
problem.

Still leaves me with the GRUB problem, but I'll be reporting that as
part of UEFI test day, so we'll see how that goes.

Thanks again for your help.
- Jonathan



From bmaly at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 19:37:53 2009
From: bmaly at redhat.com (Brian Maly)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 15:37:53 -0400
Subject: UEFI Compatibility Issues in Fedora 10
In-Reply-To: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE509420F3E@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
References: <9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE509420F36@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
	<49DB8C3B.8030906@redhat.com>
	<9B4771B4D9FB73498B40311D4E7E8EE509420F3E@atl-ms2.us.megatrends.com>
Message-ID: <49DE4E91.3030405@redhat.com>

jonathan barkelew wrote:
>> I will be testing the rawhide kernel this Thursday as part of the
>> testing day.
>> I'll let you know whether I still see the problem.
>>     
>
> In the words of Thomas Edison, "Sweet! This thing works!"
>
> Tried to test kexec, but I couldn't figure out its intricacies. I might
> give this another try later. For now, your patches fix the kernel panic
> problem.
>
> Still leaves me with the GRUB problem, but I'll be reporting that as
> part of UEFI test day, so we'll see how that goes.
>
> Thanks again for your help.
> - Jonathan
>   
Make sure any problems you may find get a Bugzilla opened (if one has 
not been opened for whatever issues you find) so we can make sure these 
get fixed.
I saw a few grub problems discovered/logged today.

Brian




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From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 19:39:19 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 15:39:19 -0400
Subject: conman spec details for proper uconfigured behavior 
In-Reply-To: <20090409150405.68407b42@dhcp243-36.rdu.redhat.com> 
References: <20090409150405.68407b42@dhcp243-36.rdu.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4253.1239305959@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Kent Baxley <kbaxley at redhat.com> writes:
> ... And the conman.spec has a %post stanza that does
> something like:

>   /sbin/chkconfig --add conman

> in order to have conmand started at boot.

chkconfig --add doesn't in itself start anything.  What you are doing
wrong is the setting in the initscript --- it should not be trying to
have itself automatically enabled.

> Most daemons in Red Hat
> seem to follow this convention.

No, they don't.  As a general rule, simply installing an RPM should
*never* autostart a daemon.  There are some exceptions, for daemons
without which your system won't function at all, but I strongly
doubt that conman qualifies.

The lack of assurance that the daemon is properly configured is
only one of the reasons why this is a bad idea.  Don't do it,
and don't give your customer the idea that anyone at Red Hat
sanctions it.

			regards, tom lane



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 19:41:16 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:41:16 -0700
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <4073.1239305384@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239300590.3969.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<4073.1239305384@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239306076.3969.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 15:29 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> You are assuming that the broken glibc hasn't caused any undetected
> errors during building of packages.  Given that it can have odd effects
> on the execution of just about any tool used during a build, I find
> your optimism 100% unjustified.
> 
> Even without that consideration, you are misinformed if you think that
> only i586 is broken.  The mysql failures I was seeing manifested on
> x86_64 but not the other three platforms.

Are you certain we're talking about the same problem then?  Perhaps
we're talking about two different problems, one problem which is already
"fixed" but the build to fix it was untagged because it was triggering
the i586 memcopy problem more often.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From carl at five-ten-sg.com  Thu Apr  9 20:05:14 2009
From: carl at five-ten-sg.com (Carl Byington)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:05:14 -0700
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <20090409204716.2be21512@faldor.intranet>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>
	<1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409204716.2be21512@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <1239307514.26592.69.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>

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> That would not be more accurate, because you could not guarantee that
> _any_ libpst-libs package with a higher %version would be compatible.
> Especially not if %version has nothing to do with the libtool library
> version.

The combination of 'Requires: %{name}-libs >= %{version}-%{release}'
with the automatic soname dependency would only be satisfied by a
version of the -libs package that 1) implements libpst.so.2, and 2) is
at least as recent as the current version. Anything satisfying both of
those conditions must implement all of the interfaces needed by the
current executables. Or am I missing something?


> External packages linked with libpst are not affected either and can
> rely on the automatic SONAME dependency.

How does that work in the case of 

a) early version with -version-info 2:0:0, soname .2, library .2.0.0
b) newer version with -version info 3:0:1, soname .2, library .2.1.0
c) other package built against the newer version with automatic
dependency on soname .2

User installs the early version from (a) which provides soname .2, and
other package (c) which depends on soname .2 - but really needs library
2.1.0.

If the other package just 'Requires: libpst-libs' without any version,
it would seem to be satisfied by the early version from (a). It seems
that the other package would need to add some >=release.version to that
requires. If so, then the main libpst package should also use that same
Requires.

In any case, I think that the main libpst package should Require the
- -libs subpackage using the same (version or not) line as in any other
package that depends on libpst-libs. 

Or is it the case that these sorts of dependencies are handled by the
repository and fedora build system? In the sense, that if we upgrade to
- -version-info 3:0:1 and rebuild libpst, and the other package is built
against that new version, then a user with an existing old version from
(a) doing 'yum install other-pkg' will automatically get the newer
libpst, even though the soname dependency would seem to be satisfied by
the existing libpst.so.2 on that end user system. I don't see any
mechanism in place to do that, but it would be nice.

The other alternative is that *any* change to the interface, even just
adding a new interface, results in an soname bump.


> Yes, the libpst.so symlink from the -devel pkgs.

Ok, I will ignore the parallel install issues for now (unless you have
a suggestion for a fix). 
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From pmatilai at laiskiainen.org  Thu Apr  9 20:14:40 2009
From: pmatilai at laiskiainen.org (Panu Matilainen)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 23:14:40 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <49DE47AB.10701@redhat.com>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409121540.ced6cf32.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904092151520.17897@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>
	<49DE47AB.10701@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904092304120.17897@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>

On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, Ulrich Drepper wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Panu Matilainen wrote:
>> In this case the breakage was bad enough I seriously doubt anybody has
>> managed to build anything with rpm using the broken glibc.i586 versions.
>> Rpm fails to even read its configuration in that case, never mind
>> actually building something.
>
> If you want to complain then to the idiots who made the decision to go
> with .i586 instead of .i686 for x86 binaries.  This is exactly the kind
> of problem I've been warning about all along.  Using the i586 target
> stresses code paths (in this case in gcc) which are hardly ever used
> since nobody cares for this target in general.

You haven't seen *me* complain. I'm mostly just happy that
- the problem got found
- it was somebody elses problem
- it broke rpm outright so it apparently wasn't possible to build
   anything, instead of finding out some subtle breakage in released
   packages two months from now (and this is what my comment above is about)

 	- Panu -



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 20:17:52 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:17:52 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <1239300450.16645.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>
	<grgke9$3u2$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<8278b1b0904071545k1b53c291p716530999a8aeedc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239177472.12468.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e99d27470904090540g60397cc2tc6ede23c6c4e849b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239300450.16645.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904091317i5c1df180xb1c9ca37a79fd705@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 14:40 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote:
> > its like that since ages but actually the generated glsl code is not
> > really pretty in alot test cases i did.
>
> Yes, near as I can tell, Cg is really primarily used as a code
> obfuscation method. Something that is fundamentally at odds with open
> source. So I have no idea why any self respecting open source project
> would even want to touch it.
>
> Also, its rumored that it favors nvidia. Nvidia's drivers compile Cg to
> native Nvidia binary code, and output sub-par GLSL/HLSL on everything
> else.
>
> Crystal Space uses Cg. WHY? They don't even use Direct3D. The only
> justification for Cg instead of GLSL is if you're wanting to share
> shaders across OpenGL and Direct3D, in which case writing in HLSL and
> using ATI's tool is a non-proprietary solution. (Now how about a
> GLSL2HLSL compiler...)
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

Maybe because it makes it easy to make shaders to both GLSL and HLSL? For
open source projects like PCSX2 which need shaders a lot, it is absolutely
necessary that the SL output is equivalent on OGL and D3D.
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From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 20:26:09 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:26:09 -0400
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide? 
In-Reply-To: <1239306076.3969.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239300590.3969.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<4073.1239305384@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239306076.3969.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <5062.1239308769@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 15:29 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Even without that consideration, you are misinformed if you think that
>> only i586 is broken.  The mysql failures I was seeing manifested on
>> x86_64 but not the other three platforms.

> Are you certain we're talking about the same problem then?

Apparently there's more than one problem with glibc.  I was complaining
about the "experimental malloc" code, which really now was not the time
to enable.  But based on Ulrich's last remarks there may be independent
issues on i586 arising from the platform selection itself.

			regards, tom lane



From jakub at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 20:29:28 2009
From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 22:29:28 +0200
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <5062.1239308769@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239300590.3969.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<4073.1239305384@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239306076.3969.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<5062.1239308769@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <20090409202928.GA5083@tyan-ft48-01.lab.bos.redhat.com>

On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 04:26:09PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> > On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 15:29 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> >> Even without that consideration, you are misinformed if you think that
> >> only i586 is broken.  The mysql failures I was seeing manifested on
> >> x86_64 but not the other three platforms.
> 
> > Are you certain we're talking about the same problem then?
> 
> Apparently there's more than one problem with glibc.  I was complaining
> about the "experimental malloc" code, which really now was not the time
> to enable.  But based on Ulrich's last remarks there may be independent
> issues on i586 arising from the platform selection itself.

If you have issues with the new malloc code, first verify you aren't
allocating anything from within async signal handlers.

	Jakub



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr  9 20:49:56 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 15:49:56 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904091317i5c1df180xb1c9ca37a79fd705@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>
	<grgke9$3u2$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<8278b1b0904071545k1b53c291p716530999a8aeedc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239177472.12468.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e99d27470904090540g60397cc2tc6ede23c6c4e849b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239300450.16645.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904091317i5c1df180xb1c9ca37a79fd705@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239310196.16645.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 15:17 -0500, King InuYasha wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:


>         Crystal Space uses Cg. WHY? They don't even use Direct3D. The
>         only
>         justification for Cg instead of GLSL is if you're wanting to
>         share
>         shaders across OpenGL and Direct3D, in which case writing in
>         HLSL and
>         using ATI's tool is a non-proprietary solution. (Now how about
>         a
>         GLSL2HLSL compiler...)

> 
> Maybe because it makes it easy to make shaders to both GLSL and HLSL?
> For open source projects like PCSX2 which need shaders a lot, it is
> absolutely necessary that the SL output is equivalent on OGL and D3D. 

Does anyone read before replying? Code in HLSL (99% similar to Cg
anyway) and use ATI's HLSL2GLSL.
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  9 21:15:02 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:15:02 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238650802.4338.196.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1q45$ikd$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1238694566.4338.214.camel@adam.local.net>
	<grbivd$68e$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239031116.8700.62.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239221096.8700.159.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <grlogm$tsf$1@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> Wow, you're a hero - it actually works. I wasn't expecting that, I have
> to admit =)

It working on the first try (well, the second, but the error on the first
try was a bug in our kdepimlibs-devel package, the second try was just a
rebuild) surprises even me. :-)

> Some contacts had got duplicated for some reason, but still, nice effort.

Unfortunately, as I've been told, duplication of data is an inherent issue
with libopensync 0.22, and the main reason why they're working on
redesigning everything in 0.3x/0.40. Unfortunately, their redesign is
breaking everything at the moment. :-(

        Kevin Kofler



From jreiser at BitWagon.com  Thu Apr  9 21:18:41 2009
From: jreiser at BitWagon.com (John Reiser)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 14:18:41 -0700
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <20090409202928.GA5083@tyan-ft48-01.lab.bos.redhat.com>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<1239300590.3969.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<4073.1239305384@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<1239306076.3969.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<5062.1239308769@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409202928.GA5083@tyan-ft48-01.lab.bos.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49DE6631.90207@BitWagon.com>

Jakub Jelinek wrote:

> If you have issues with the new malloc code, first verify you aren't
> allocating anything from within async signal handlers.

Would it be possible (and similarly inexpensive) for glibc to detect
some such cases, somewhat like glibc detects some cases of double free()
or some overwriting of its internal data structures which support malloc?
Particularly as long as the new malloc code is considered to be experimental,
then the cost of extra checking may be worthwhile.

-- 



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  9 21:24:58 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:24:58 +0200
Subject: dontzap  - a application to revert dontzap setting
References: <49D212AF.5000902@fedoraproject.org>	<200904071245.20099.mhlavink@redhat.com>	<49DB30E1.3010507@fedoraproject.org>	<1239115430.6768.209.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<49DBAB8A.4070107@googlemail.com>	<49DBB051.4080200@comcast.net>	<49DBB514.2030206@googlemail.com>	<49DBD77E.8010604@comcast.net>	<49DBD952.3030909@comcast.net>	<49DCACCE.2000505@googlemail.com>
	<49DCC20A.9030702@comcast.net> <49DCDA9F.3010201@googlemail.com>
	<49DD1009.4070909@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <grlp3a$tsf$2@ger.gmane.org>

David wrote:
> If, in the future, xorg.conf is abandoned

There are no plans to do that. All the "no xorg.conf" changes are about is
making X.Org X11 do the right thing by default (in particular, to make it
actually show something on the screen without a config file :-) ), they're
not taking away the possibility to configure it.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  9 21:32:51 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:32:51 +0200
Subject: exposing packages to users (was Re: Fedora, Portable Edition?)
References: <8278b1b0904061743n315149e4x4cea386e9e967b1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239185368.8496.2.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<f12087800904080610k597b75a3mbfd1446764888f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904080928.41710.wm161@wm161.net>
	<f12087800904080636x32aacc4dkecabc6ced1cb703c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239210810.12468.67.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904081413t7c22f7fk89c4fcd6d823c6b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239230269.3841.138.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239259653.5423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239259963.3841.144.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<1239263980.5423.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239294632.4379.18.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <grlpi3$tsf$3@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> Having said that, Ubuntu has a slightly different approach to the same
> problem - it has a lobotomized, Windows-style 'Add / Remove Programs'
> application, and then it has synaptic for the full-fat stuff. I don't
> know what user reaction to that has been, I don't follow the U community
> very closely, but it's an alternative.

There's work ongoing on adding an "Applications" view (as opposed
to "Packages" which is the current view) to PackageKit. The KPackageKit
portions of that are being spearheaded by the Kubuntu folks, who're
adopting KPackageKit as their default package manager (replacing Adept).

        Kevin Kofler



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 21:44:46 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 14:44:46 -0700
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <5062.1239308769@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239300590.3969.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<4073.1239305384@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239306076.3969.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<5062.1239308769@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239313486.3926.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 16:26 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> Apparently there's more than one problem with glibc.  I was complaining
> about the "experimental malloc" code, which really now was not the time
> to enable.  But based on Ulrich's last remarks there may be independent
> issues on i586 arising from the platform selection itself.

Ok.  Yeah, I'm a bit concerned about enabling something that is
"experimental" in glibc at this point, but then again I'm also an idiot
who things we should continue supporting i586 systems for a while yet,
so what do I know.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  9 21:50:39 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:50:39 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <49DCAAA6.2000608@googlemail.com>
	<20090408190307.GA83077@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<49DD049E.5000603@googlemail.com>
	<20090408201743.GA1339@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<20090408202111.GA886@srcf.ucam.org>
	<49DD08EC.3030707@googlemail.com>
	<20090409064301.GA8407@srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <grlqjf$694$1@ger.gmane.org>

Matthew Garrett wrote:
> There was no vote amongst developers. A decision was made and there was
> no significant dissent amongst the developer body. Like most upstream
> projects, decisions about X result from gaining rough consensus amongst
> the relevant people. User viewpoints will be considered as part of this,
> but there's no concept of "This many people complained on the mailing
> list, therefore we are forbidden from carrying out this change".

I think the big problem is the "mailing list consensus" decision making
process which is used by many Free Software projects. I've seen it happen
in other projects too (e.g. GCC). How it usually goes:
1. maintainer X posts a patch to the mailing list for discussion,
2. some people post objections, others approve of the patch,
3. the discussion eventually dies off because people realize nobody is going
to change their mind and move on - no visible consensus was ever reached,
4. maintainer X somehow concludes consensus was reached (the mechanisms at
work are not clear to me: Maybe maintainer X subconciously doesn't notice
the objections? Maybe they conclude that consensus was reached because no
new objections are being raised, despite the existing ones not having been
addressed? Maybe there is something which gives insiders a feeling of
consensus which an outsider just doesn't see?) and commits the change.

        Kevin Kofler



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 21:52:10 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 23:52:10 +0200
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <1239307514.26592.69.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>
	<1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409204716.2be21512@faldor.intranet>
	<1239307514.26592.69.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
Message-ID: <20090409235210.3b3dfe40@faldor.intranet>

On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:05:14 -0700, Carl wrote:

> The combination of 'Requires: %{name}-libs >= %{version}-%{release}'
> with the automatic soname dependency would only be satisfied by a
> version of the -libs package that 1) implements libpst.so.2, and 2) is
> at least as recent as the current version. Anything satisfying both of
> those conditions must implement all of the interfaces needed by the
> current executables. Or am I missing something?

You're trying to optimise the dependency for cherry-picking of package
builds. With an ordinary library package and strict libtool versioning it
would be possible to do it that way, but pkg %{name} and pkg %{name}-libs
are built from the same src.rpm anyway, are published together, and
depsolvers typically look at only the latest release of a pkg.

With your less strict dependency, one could "yum update %name-libs" to a
higher %version while keeping an older installed %name pkg. As I said, the
'>=' dependency is less accurate than '='. The old %name pkg might suffer
from bugs -- vulnerabilities even, with the %name-libs %changelog mentioning
a fix but the %name pkg being too old.

There is no logical AND involved in depsolving a set of dependencies,
as far as I know. You've got two dependencies,

  1.)  %{name}-libs >= %{version}-%{release}
  2.)  libpst.so.2

which theoretically could be satisfied by two separate sets of packages.
It can happen that the depsolver first resolves dep 1, which could be
satisfied by a pkg libpst-libs that provides libpst.so.3 (!), and then the
depsolver finds libpst.so.2 in a different package, e.g. libpst2-libs, a
package that can be installed in parallel. If the pkg that satisfies dep 1
provides the stuff needed by dep 2, there is not much benefit, because
it's the latest release of %name-libs in the repo that satisfies the
'greater or equal' anyway (and hides all older %name-libs pkgs as it
is supposed to update/upgrade them).

> > External packages linked with libpst are not affected either and can
> > rely on the automatic SONAME dependency.
> 
> How does that work in the case of 
> 
> a) early version with -version-info 2:0:0, soname .2, library .2.0.0
> b) newer version with -version info 3:0:1, soname .2, library .2.1.0
> c) other package built against the newer version with automatic
> dependency on soname .2
> 
> User installs the early version from (a) which provides soname .2, and
> other package (c) which depends on soname .2 - but really needs library
> 2.1.0.
>
> If the other package just 'Requires: libpst-libs' without any version,
> it would seem to be satisfied by the early version from (a).

A non-versioned explicit Requires on a package name is not better than the
automatic dep on the SONAME. It's worse -- if you keep package renaming
and library moving in mind.

> It seems
> that the other package would need to add some >=release.version to that
> requires. If so, then the main libpst package should also use that same
> Requires.
> 
> In any case, I think that the main libpst package should Require the
> - -libs subpackage using the same (version or not) line as in any other
> package that depends on libpst-libs. 

The only explicit Requires that's plausible for subpackage inter-package
dependencies is '... = %version-%release" to require exactly the
subpackages built from the same src.rpm. This strict dependency makes
sense for all a src.rpm's subpackages with inter-package dependencies on
eachother actually. Documentation subpackages don't need such a dep at
all, if they can be displayed with a reader from an external package.

Rule of thumb as I see it: If there is an inter-package dependency between
sub-packages built from the same src.rpm (e.g. library interfaces,
command-line/tool interfaces, data files, files needed at run-time), make
the dependency explicit and a strict "... = %version-%release".
 
> Or is it the case that these sorts of dependencies are handled by the
> repository and fedora build system? In the sense, that if we upgrade to
> - -version-info 3:0:1 and rebuild libpst, and the other package is built
> against that new version, then a user with an existing old version from
> (a) doing 'yum install other-pkg' will automatically get the newer
> libpst,

No automatic rebuilds of apps are done if a build dependency is upgraded.

If "other-pkg" really needs a minimum version of a library package at
run-time, that must be added as an explicit Requires, unfortunately. With
a spec file comment explaining the necessity. Explicit minimum versions
for BuildRequires and Requires increase the package maintenance overhead
(and require developers and packagers to keep their "configure" checks and
minimum versions very accurate and in sync). Package maintainers must be
careful with library version upgrades -- and hope that users apply all
Updates regularly. ;-)



From pertusus at free.fr  Thu Apr  9 22:20:12 2009
From: pertusus at free.fr (Patrice Dumas)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:20:12 +0200
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <1239299873.3115.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
	<1239299873.3115.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090409222012.GA3830@free.fr>

On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 01:57:53PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> 
> hicolor-icon-theme is the owner of that directory. 
> All the others are just squatters.

Depends if they have a dependency on the package or not.

--
Pat



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  9 22:29:12 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:29:12 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DCE8D2.1060008@gmail.com>
	<1239215991.11145.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <grlsro$cam$1@ger.gmane.org>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> OK fine, it needs to happen now.  Either way we can't go into the final
> freeze with a broken PPC tree.

PPC (and PPC64 even more so, but this particular issue is with 32-bit PPC)
really needs to become a secondary arch! This is not the first time PPC
issues are upholding builds. We've had several PPC/PPC64 issues with KDE
and its dependencies, and while it's true that some of them were due to a
generic bug (e.g. the CMake crash during kdepimlibs builds on ppc64 was
really a generic buffer overflow), most of them were due to PPC/PPC64
toolchain bugs (e.g. GCC crashing while building Qt - this is still not
fixed in the F10 GCC, by the way, but we were able to patch Qt so it
builds) or limitations (PPC64 TOC overflowing on large autogenerated
compilation units, we hit this with the OpenBabel SWIG bindings - upstream
ended up just removing some stuff from the bindings to "fix" the issue).
The Mono maintainers did the logical thing and decided to just drop PPC
support and I can't blame them for it. Only very few people still use PPC
hardware, all the current Macs are x86. What really needs to happen is for
PPC to become a secondary arch so the burden will be on the arch team to
get things to build there, maintainers should be able to move on with the
arches people actually use. ExcludeArch wouldn't have been needed then,
because the PPC builds would have been separate and could have been done on
their own schedule. This change has been promised for ages, why did it
still not happen?

        Kevin Kofler



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 22:43:27 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 15:43:27 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <grlsro$cam$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DCE8D2.1060008@gmail.com>
	<1239215991.11145.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<grlsro$cam$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239317007.3926.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-10 at 00:29 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> This change has been promised for ages, why did it
> still not happen?

Because we don't actually have a functioning secondary arch system.
What was promised was that once we have a working secondary arch system
and a arch successfully using it we would move ppc to a secondary arch.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  9 22:44:02 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:44:02 +0200
Subject: review request for libpst
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>
	<1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<29764.1239297510@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239300607.26592.48.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
Message-ID: <grltni$cam$2@ger.gmane.org>

Carl Byington wrote:
> But if the main executables require an exact version match to the -libs
> package, then we cannot do parallel install of multiple (matching)
> - -devel,-libs packages, while leaving the executables installed and
> using the older version of the -libs package.
> 
> None of this matters if fedora packaging in general does not support
> parallel installs. If that is the case, then yes, we can use '=' in
> that Requires.

We do not support parallel installs. In cases where multiple versions of a
library are needed, a compatibility package has to be built for the old
one. But in general we just rebuild all dependent packages against the new
version.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  9 23:02:58 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 01:02:58 +0200
Subject: review request for libpst
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>
	<1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409204716.2be21512@faldor.intranet>
	<1239307514.26592.69.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
Message-ID: <grlur3$h44$1@ger.gmane.org>

Carl Byington wrote:
> How does that work in the case of
> 
> a) early version with -version-info 2:0:0, soname .2, library .2.0.0
> b) newer version with -version info 3:0:1, soname .2, library .2.1.0
> c) other package built against the newer version with automatic
> dependency on soname .2
> 
> User installs the early version from (a) which provides soname .2, and
> other package (c) which depends on soname .2 - but really needs library
> 2.1.0.
>
> If the other package just 'Requires: libpst-libs' without any version,
> it would seem to be satisfied by the early version from (a). It seems
> that the other package would need to add some >=release.version to that
> requires. If so, then the main libpst package should also use that same
> Requires.

It doesn't. :-)

That's one of the limitations with the soname dependencies. Some packages
have explicit versioned dependencies when such a relation is known, but in
most cases it isn't and so there's no such dependency, the user is just
expected to upgrade everything (which will replace a with b), not just the
package c.

The only way you can get RPM to autodetect dependencies without soname bumps
is with symbol versioning. If you can get upstream to use symbol versioning
on the platforms which support it (e.g. Fedora (on all architectures)) to
mark each symbol with the version it was first introduced in (or if you ARE
upstream and can do that change there), then RPM will add automatic
dependencies based on those and solve this problem. Note that for this to
work, there is NO NEED to actually have more than one version for any given
symbol! So this can be done without introducing any non-portability, the
symbol versioning would just be used on the platforms where it is
supported. (In other words: such a use of symbol versioning would really be
symbol version-marking, not versioning.) But upstream needs to support it,
most don't, unfortunately. (One warning though: versions should only be
added to NEW symbols. Adding symbol versions to existing symbols is an ABI
change and thus needs a soname bump.)

Examples:
1. unversioned symbol: foo
  * contains no version information whatsoever
  * RPM has no way to know when foo was first introduced
2. versioned symbol: foo at LIBBAR_2_1_0, foo at LIBBAR_2_2_0
  * symbol versioning as used by glibc
  * multiple versions of the symbol
  * old programs use the old version of the symbol,
    newly-rebuilt ones use the new version
  * usually a bad idea, as rebuilds magically change the program's behavior
  * not portable, because not all platforms support symbol versioning
  * different functions should have different names!
3. version-marked symbol: foo at LIBBAR_2_1_0 (and no other foo@* symbol)
  * conservative use of symbol versioning
  * contains version information which RPM can use for automatic deps
  * programs using foo will have a libbar.so.2(LIBBAR_2_1_0) autodep
  * on OSes without symbol versioning, just foo (as in 1.) will be used
  * as in 1., the function foo must remain binary compatible
The solution 3. is what I'm suggesting to use. RPM autodeps would be much
safer if all upstream projects used that.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr  9 23:23:52 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 01:23:52 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DCE8D2.1060008@gmail.com>
	<1239215991.11145.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<grlsro$cam$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239317007.3926.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <grm028$h44$2@ger.gmane.org>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> Because we don't actually have a functioning secondary arch system.
> What was promised was that once we have a working secondary arch system
> and a arch successfully using it we would move ppc to a secondary arch.

We have build systems up for several secondary architectures, and some of
them also made releases (e.g. ARM). They were late, but that will always be
the case, we cannot expect secondary architectures to be ready on release
day. Allowing them to work on their own schedule is the whole reason
they're secondary.

        Kevin Kofler



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr  9 23:43:53 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:43:53 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes
In-Reply-To: <grm028$h44$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DCE8D2.1060008@gmail.com>
	<1239215991.11145.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<grlsro$cam$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239317007.3926.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<grm028$h44$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239320633.3926.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-10 at 01:23 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> We have build systems up for several secondary architectures, and some of
> them also made releases (e.g. ARM). They were late, but that will always be
> the case, we cannot expect secondary architectures to be ready on release
> day. Allowing them to work on their own schedule is the whole reason
> they're secondary.

They are still doing things mostly by hand, rather than automatic builds
from our koji system.  We just plain are not ready to turn ppc into a
secondary arch.  Period.  When we are ready, it will be done.  Period.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr 10 00:06:22 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 02:06:22 +0200
Subject: gcc more strict about prototypes?
References: <1239273888.3791.32.camel@eagle.danny.cz>
Message-ID: <grm2hu$h44$9@ger.gmane.org>

Dan Hor?k wrote:
> z80pass.c:97: error: conflicting types for 'getline'
> /usr/include/stdio.h:653: note: previous declaration of 'getline' was here
> z80pass.c:168: error: conflicting types for 'getline'
> /usr/include/stdio.h:653: note: previous declaration of 'getline' was here
> 
> z88dk
> https://s390.koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=40683
> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1286829

This should be fixed in z88dk-1.8-3.fc11, now building.

        Kevin Kofler



From gmaxwell at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 00:15:10 2009
From: gmaxwell at gmail.com (Gregory Maxwell)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 20:15:10 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DCFC9C.3030706@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net> <49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>
	<49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net> <49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de>
	<49DCD5C8.6000308@comcast.net> <49DCFC9C.3030706@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <e692861c0904091715o25d96359t4dfb48a35ed5d3b4@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:
> Correct - my opinion still is: upstream's decision is silly.

Anyone propose a patch that moves the zap to something suitably
impossible to press accidentally? like ctrl-alt-backspace then type
killxnow? :)

> Also, provided the hazzle this issue has caused, I am deeply convinced the
> change would have been reverted in Fedora, if Fedora package maintainer
> wasn't a RH employee.

Oh no! RedHat has been subverted by the conspiracy of emacs users?!



From carl at five-ten-sg.com  Fri Apr 10 04:19:54 2009
From: carl at five-ten-sg.com (Carl Byington)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 21:19:54 -0700
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <grlur3$h44$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>
	<1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409204716.2be21512@faldor.intranet>
	<1239307514.26592.69.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<grlur3$h44$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239337194.9142.5.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


> 3. version-marked symbol: foo at LIBBAR_2_1_0 (and no other foo@*
> symbol)
>   * conservative use of symbol versioning
>   * contains version information which RPM can use for automatic deps
>   * programs using foo will have a libbar.so.2(LIBBAR_2_1_0) autodep
>   * on OSes without symbol versioning, just foo (as in 1.) will be
> used
>   * as in 1., the function foo must remain binary compatible
> The solution 3. is what I'm suggesting to use. RPM autodeps would be
> much
> safer if all upstream projects used that.

I am both the upstream and the packager for this project, and I am
willing to make changes (well, within reason) to make it fit nicely
into Fedora. Do you have an example of a fedora package that uses this
approach so I can study it, or is there a reference with a bit more
detail of exactly how to create these versioned symbols and the rules
to be followed when deciding which symbols need to be versioned?

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=Zadd
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From tgl at redhat.com  Fri Apr 10 05:34:49 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 01:34:49 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090408 changes 
In-Reply-To: <grlsro$cam$1@ger.gmane.org> 
References: <20090408125438.CE5A01F8256@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<e76492710904080711p24a09db4g42cc0c1c64963241@mail.gmail.com>
	<5256d0b0904080743m66c7e302gf3e126c4136baed0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DCBECC.4050503@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<5256d0b0904080816w6e439d82w718defd97b8e9611@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080851m2924bf4akb3f26ef4ea3795a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904080949j72e9a1a2h1497628855475efc@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904080953k35f4a7bdy9f3a4ad45c7124f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1dedbbfc0904081003s3f742f82u3bebfa55e0df88b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239211530.11145.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DCE8D2.1060008@gmail.com>
	<1239215991.11145.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<grlsro$cam$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <14422.1239341689@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> writes:
> PPC (and PPC64 even more so, but this particular issue is with 32-bit PPC)
> really needs to become a secondary arch!

I sincerely hope that does not ever happen --- or at least not without
replacing PPC with some other big-endian architecture.  It's tough
enough now keeping people on the straight and narrow path about platform
independent coding.  If Fedora ever becomes an only-Intel-matters distro
we are going to lose a lot of credibility and leverage on that point.

> The Mono maintainers did the logical thing and decided to just drop PPC
> support and I can't blame them for it.

I can, and do, and find that attitude one hundred percent unacceptable.
Fix your damn code.

			regards, tom lane



From tgl at redhat.com  Fri Apr 10 05:42:07 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 01:42:07 -0400
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide? 
In-Reply-To: <20090409202928.GA5083@tyan-ft48-01.lab.bos.redhat.com> 
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239300590.3969.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<4073.1239305384@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239306076.3969.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<5062.1239308769@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409202928.GA5083@tyan-ft48-01.lab.bos.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <14540.1239342127@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> writes:
> On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 04:26:09PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Apparently there's more than one problem with glibc.  I was complaining
>> about the "experimental malloc" code, which really now was not the time
>> to enable.  But based on Ulrich's last remarks there may be independent
>> issues on i586 arising from the platform selection itself.

> If you have issues with the new malloc code, first verify you aren't
> allocating anything from within async signal handlers.

Hmm ... I'm not anywhere near familiar enough with the mysql code to
swear on the spur of the moment that they don't do that; except that
surely any such code would be broken on most platforms, not only
bleeding-edge glibc.

In any case I think it's fair to ask what the heck we were doing
swapping in experimental code in a core library post-beta.

			regards, tom lane



From fedora at matbooth.co.uk  Fri Apr 10 06:33:20 2009
From: fedora at matbooth.co.uk (Mat Booth)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 07:33:20 +0100
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <9497e9990904092333w2256b072p7904a4dcdcd4bf8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Ville Skytt? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Quite a few packages that produce *-debuginfo without sources have crept again
> in rawhide. ?See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Debuginfo for
> possible reasons, the most usual of which in my (past, haven't checked this
> batch that closely) experience is failure to honor $RPM_OPT_FLAGS during build
> which can also mean that the default security related compiler flags aren't
> being applied either.
>
> List of such packages identified by my debuginfo-check.py is attached
> (ownership info generated with Thorsten's fedoradev-pkgowners). ?I intend to
> submit debuginfo-check.py to yum-utils (probably as debugrepo-check) and have
> added a similar check in upstream svn rpmlint, hopefully with these additions
> people will start noticing the issues easier.
>
> Maintainer ? Package ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Co-maintainers
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> mbooth ? ? ? brazil ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(none)


This is a Java package that is AOT compiled for GCJ so the RPM flags
are beyond my control. Compilation is done by the aot-compile-rpm
script from the java-1.5.0-gcj-devel package. What do I need to do (if
anything)?



-- 
Mat Booth
www.matbooth.co.uk



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 06:55:46 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 02:55:46 -0400
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <9497e9990904092333w2256b072p7904a4dcdcd4bf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<9497e9990904092333w2256b072p7904a4dcdcd4bf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904092355n3a5b2d5el89886bec5727fbde@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 2:33 AM, Mat Booth  wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Ville Skytt? wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Quite a few packages that produce *-debuginfo without sources have crept again
>> in rawhide. ?See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Debuginfo for
>> possible reasons, the most usual of which in my (past, haven't checked this
>> batch that closely) experience is failure to honor $RPM_OPT_FLAGS during build
>> which can also mean that the default security related compiler flags aren't
>> being applied either.
>>
>> List of such packages identified by my debuginfo-check.py is attached
>> (ownership info generated with Thorsten's fedoradev-pkgowners). ?I intend to
>> submit debuginfo-check.py to yum-utils (probably as debugrepo-check) and have
>> added a similar check in upstream svn rpmlint, hopefully with these additions
>> people will start noticing the issues easier.
>>
>> Maintainer ? Package ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Co-maintainers
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> mbooth ? ? ? brazil ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(none)
>
>
> This is a Java package that is AOT compiled for GCJ so the RPM flags
> are beyond my control. Compilation is done by the aot-compile-rpm
> script from the java-1.5.0-gcj-devel package. What do I need to do (if
> anything)?
>
>


Do you see error messages during find-debuginfo stage, such as in this bug?
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=472292

If so, sometimes (underlined), passing -g to javac helps. If you are
using ant, try to add
debug="on"
on the javac part of your build.xml

Orcan



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 10 10:13:57 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 10:13:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090410 changes
Message-ID: <20090410101357.EAC041F8247@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Fri Apr 10 06:15:03 UTC 2009

New package calf
        Audio plugins pack
New package choqok
        Choqok KDE Micro-Blogging Client
New package coccinella
        Chat client with whiteboard
New package gnote
        Note-taking application
New package jmod
        Java Sound MODules Library
New package kcometen4
        An OpenGL screensaver with exploding comets for KDE4
New package kvirc
        Free portable IRC client
New package phoronix-test-suite
        A Comprehensive Linux Benchmarking System
New package pidgin-latex
        Use LaTeX formulas in your pidgin conversations
Removed package olpc-logos
Updated Packages:

AcetoneISO2-2.0.3-1.fc11
------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 2.0.3-1
- update to 2.0.3 final


DeviceKit-disks-004-0.6.20090408git.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 004-0.6.20090408git.fc11
- use correct dmode for iso9660 mounts (#495018)


agistudio-1.2.4-1.fc11
----------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 1.2.4-1
- New upstream, dropping relevant patches.

* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.2.3-9
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


anaconda-11.5.0.42-1
--------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Chris Lumens <clumens at redhat.com> - 11.5.0.42-1
- Fix display of format type for devices. (dlehman)
- Fix handling of priority option from swap fstab entries. (#494992)
  (dlehman)
- Some fs types cannot be passed to programs (#495061, #493075). (clumens)
- When a new module is loaded, update the kernel_filesystems list. (clumens)
- Add more Indic fonts (#494261, pnemade).
- Remove the message saying you can make your own layout (#495015). (clumens)
- Put e100 (and other) firmware in its own directory if needed (#494778).
  (clumens)
- Run /bin/umount instead of calling umount(2) in _isys.umount (#493333)
  (dcantrell)
- Add doPwUmount() and mountCommandWrapper() to isys (#493333) (dcantrell)
- Preserve symlinks and only collect deps on ELF executables. (dcantrell)
- Use $(ARCHIVE_TAG) throughout the updates target. (dcantrell)
- partedUtils doesn't exist anymore (katzj)
- Revert "Show the header in certain non-lowres cases" (#493153) (katzj)
- Pre-existing partitions names may change (#494833) (hdegoede)
- Use getDeviceNodeName() instead of basename of device node. (hdegoede)
- Fix ks raid --useexisting and --noformat (rvykydal)
- Fix processing of --level and --device options of ks raid commands.
  (rvykydal)
- Don't start pdb immediately in debug mode (katzj)
- Fix EDD BIOS disk order detection in general and make it work with dmraid
  (hdegoede)
- Update extended partition geometry when we change it (hdegoede)


beesu-2.3-3.fc11
----------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> 2.3-2
- enable nautilus-beesu-manager subpackage

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> 2.3-3
- fix missing BR: desktop-file-utils


bouncycastle-1.42-2.fc11
------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget [DOT] fedora [AT] gmail [DOT] com> - 1.42-2
- Add missing Requires: junit4


calendar-1.25-6.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 1.25-6
- Honor RPM_OPT_FLAGS and fix debuginfo (#494717)


cloog-0.15-0.8.git1334c.fc11
----------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dodji Seketeli <dodji at redhat.com> - 0.15-0.8.git1334c
- Update to new upstream git snapshot
- Drop the cloog.info patch as now upstreamed
- No need to add an argument to the --with-ppl
  configure switch anymore as new upstream fixed this


control-center-2.26.0-4.fc11
----------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-4
- Make mnemonics in display capplet work


fedora-ds-admin-1.1.7-4.fc11
----------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Rich Megginson <rmeggins at redhat.com> - 1.1.7-4
- Resolves: bug 493424
- Description: dirsrv-admin initscript looks for nonexistent library
- Added patch to remove those modules from the httpd.conf


freeipmi-0.7.7-1.fc11
---------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Jan Safranek <jsafrane at redhat.com> - 0.7.7-1
- Update to freeipmi-0.7.7


gbrainy-1.1-2.fc11
------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Beno??t Marcelin <sereinity at online.fr> 1.1-2
- Fix buildrequires

* Wed Apr 08 2009 Beno??t Marcelin <sereinity at online.fr> 1.1-1
- Update to 1.1
- Update ExclusiveArch according to mono


gcc-4.4.0-0.32
--------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 4.4.0-0.32
- update from gcc-4_4-branch
  - PRs c++/34691, c++/35146, c++/35240, c++/37806, c++/38030, c++/38850,
	c++/39608, c++/39637, c++/4926, c/37772, fortran/38152,
	fortran/39519, fortran/39594, libmudflap/38462, libstdc++/39310,
	middle-end/39573, objc/18456, objc/27377, other/39591,
	rtl-optimization/39588, rtl-optimization/39607, target/39501,
	target/39592, target/39634, testsuite/39325, tree-optimization/35011,
	tree-optimization/39595, tree-optimization/39648
  - handle .cfi_undefined(%ip) in libgcc_s unwinder (#491542)
- fix debug info for C++ static data members (#410691)
- revert fwprop fix, it causes glibc.i586 miscompilation


getmail-4.9.0-1.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dean Mander <knolderpoor at gmail.com> - 4.9.0-1
- Update to release 4.9.0


glib2-2.20.1-1.fc11
-------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.20.1-1
- Update to 2.20.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/glib/2.20/glib-2.20.1.news


glibc-2.9.90-15
---------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-15
- rebuilt with fixed gcc to avoid miscompilation of i586 memmove
- reenable experimental malloc again

* Wed Apr 08 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-14
- update from trunk
- temporarily disable experimental malloc

* Tue Apr 07 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-13
- update from trunk
  - fix strverscmp (#494457)
- configure with --enable-nss-crypt


glpi-mass-ocs-import-1.2.2-1.fc11
---------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Remi Collet <Fedora at FamilleCollet.com> - 1.2.2-1
- update to 1.2.2 (bugfixes)


gmp-4.2.4-6.fc11
----------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> - 4.2.4-6
- no check that --host and --target are the same when building i586  or sparcv9 they are not

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.4-5
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


gnome-bluetooth-2.27.3-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.27.3-1
- Update to 2.27.3


grid-packaging-tools-3.2-17.fc11
--------------------------------
* Thu Mar 26 2009 Mattias Ellert <mattias.ellert at fysast.uu.se> - 3.2-17
- Adding wrong-url patch


grnotify-1.1.2-6.fc11
---------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Guillaume Kulakowski <guillaume DOT kulakowski AT fedoraproject DOT org> - 1.1.2-6
- Add patch for fix GReader URL


grsync-0.6.3-2.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Sebastian Vahl <fedora at deadbabylon.de> - 0.6.3-1
- new upstream release

* Fri Apr 10 2009 Sebastian Vahl <fedora at deadbabylon.de> - 0.6.3-2
- BR: intltool


grub-0.97-48.fc11
-----------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Peter Jones <pjones at redhat.com> - 0.97-48
- remove test message Re: using network drive or not.


gtk-gnutella-0.96.6-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Mar 30 2009 Dmitry Butskoy <Dmitry at Butskoy.name> - 0.96.6-1
- update to 0.96.6


gvfs-1.2.1-3.fc11
-----------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 1.2.1-2
- Avoid automounting device-mapper devices and similar (#494144)

* Thu Apr 09 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 1.2.1-3
- Clean up gdu patches and bump BR for gdu to 0.3
- Avoiding showing volume for ignored mounts (#495033)


gwibber-1.0.1-1.286bzr.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com> 1.0.1-1.286bzr
- Update from upstream revision 286


hwdata-0.225-1.fc11
-------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 0.224-1
- Update pci.ids, usb.ids, and oui.txt
- Add pnp.ids


js-1.70-5.fc11
--------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1.70-5
- Update description (#487903).


kanyremote-5.8.2-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Mikhail Fedotov <anyremote at mail.ru> - 5.8.2
- Small enhancements


libatasmart-0.8-1.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.8-1
- New upstream release


libpqxx-2.6.8-13.fc11
---------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 2.6.8-13
- properly fix visibility issues


libsoup-2.26.0.9-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0.9-1
- Upate to 2.26.0.9


liveusb-creator-3.6.5-2.fc11
----------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Luke Macken <lmacken at redhat.com> 3.6.5-1
- Update to v3.6.5, which supports F11 beta, and the latest SoaS releases

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Luke Macken <lmacken at redhat.com> 3.6.5-2
- Fix the checksum verification to support sha256


lordsawar-0.1.5-2.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com> 0.1.5-1
- 0.1.5

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com> 0.1.5-2
- Include new lang files


mono-2.4-9.RC1.fc11
-------------------

npush-0.7-3.fc11
----------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Stefan Posdzich <cheekyboinc at foresightlinux.org> - 0.7-3
- Fix Bug #485363


openldap-2.4.15-3.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Jan Zeleny <jzeleny at redhat.com> 2.4.15-3
- extended previous patch (#481310) to remove options cfMP
  from some client tools
- correction of patch setugid (#494330)


openoffice.org-3.1.0-9.2.fc11
-----------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 1:3.1.0-9.2
- Require hyphen-bn, hyphen-te, hyphen-ta, hyphen-pa, hyphen-or, 
  hyphen-ml, hyphen-kn, hyphen-gu, hyphen-hi
- Resolves: rhbz#494643 EMF polypolygons issue
- Resolves: ooo#61927 ww6 unicode font encoding on export
- Revert pythonscript.py part of ooo#95118 for now


oprofile-0.9.4-6.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Will Cohen <wcohen at redhat.com> - 0.9.4-5
- Bump version and rebuild.

* Wed Apr 08 2009 Will Cohen <wcohen at redhat.com> - 0.9.4-6
- Test for basename declaration.

* Thu Feb 26 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.4-4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


pavucontrol-0.9.7-6.fc11
------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.9.7-6
- Third preview of upcoming 0.9.8


pdftk-1.41-15.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget[DOT]fedora[AT]gmail[DOT]com> 1.41-15
- Patch ".afm files not found" issue (#494785)


perl-Catalyst-Model-DBIC-Schema-0.23-1.fc11
-------------------------------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.23-1
- update to 0.23

* Sat Apr 04 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.23-1
- update to 0.23


perl-Module-Install-0.82-1.fc11
-------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.82-1
- update to 0.82


perl-Test-WWW-Mechanize-Catalyst-0.51-1.fc11
--------------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 0.51-1
- update to 0.51


phpldapadmin-1.1.0.7-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dmitry Butskoy <Dmitry at Butskoy.name> - 1.1.0.7-1
- update to 1.1.0.7


proftpd-1.3.2-2.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1.3.2-2
- Fix tcp_wrappers-devel BR conditional.

* Mon Apr 06 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1.3.2-1
- Update to 1.3.2.
- Include mod_wrap (#479813).
- Tried to include mod_wrap2* modules but build failed.


pulseaudio-0.9.15-9.test8.fc11
------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.9.15-9.test8
- New test release


pymssql-1.0.1-2.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Ray Van Dolson <rayvd at fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.1-1
- Rebased against upstream (#492802)

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Ray Van Dolson <rayvd at fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.1-2
- De-versioned Build Requirements to work around 
  https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1202


pyodbc-2.1.4-5.fc11
-------------------

python-bugzilla-0.5.1-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Will Woods <wwoods at redhat.com> - 0.5.1-1
- CLI: fix unicode handling
- CLI: add --from-url flag, which parses a bugzilla query.cgi URL
- CLI: fix showing aliases
- CLI: add --comment, --private, --status, --assignee, --flag, --cc for update
- CLI: fix --target_milestone


python-virtinst-0.400.3-5.fc11
------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Cole Robinson <crobinso at redhat.com> - 0.400.3-5.fc11
- Don't set a keymap if user doesn't specify one (bz 487737)
- Fix adding floppy devices (bz 493408)
- Updated translations (bz 493944, bz 494358)


qbittorrent-1.3.3-2.fc11
------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Leigh Scott <leigh123linux at googlemail.com> - 1.3.3-1
- update to version 1.3.3

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Leigh Scott <leigh123linux at googlemail.com> - 1.3.3-2
- Remember to update Source in spec file


qemu-0.10-7.fc11
----------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Mark McLoughlin <markmc at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-7
- Add a much cleaner fix for vga segfault (#494002)


rhythmbox-0.12.0-4.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 0.12.0-4
- Fix iPod detection with the DeviceKit-disks gvfs monitor (#493640)


roxterm-1.14.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Sebastian Vahl <fedora at deadbabylon.de> - 1.14.1-1
- new upstream version: 1.14.1


rpm-4.7.0-0.rc1.1.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Panu Matilainen <pmatilai at redhat.com> - 4.7.0-0.rc1.1
- update to 4.7.0-rc1
- fixes #493157, #493777, #493696, #491388, #487597, #493162


rrdtool-1.3.7-1.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Jarod Wilson <jarod at redhat.com> 1.3.7-1
- Update to rrdtool 1.3.7


sqlite-3.6.12-3.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> - 3.6.12-3
- apply upstream patch for memory alignment issue (#494906)


system-config-samba-1.2.74-1.fc11
---------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.2.73-1
- fix antonym/inverted synonym handling regression
- various other fixes

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.2.74-1
- fix use via dbus


telepathy-gabble-0.7.26-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 0.7.26-1
- Update to 0.7.26.


tuxcmd-0.6.62-git20090409.1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Tomas Bzatek <tbzatek at redhat.com> 0.6.62-git20090409.1
- Rebase to latest git
- Fix unowned directories (#473992)


virt-manager-0.7.0-3.fc11
-------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Cole Robinson <crobinso at redhat.com> - 0.7.0-3.fc11
- Fix incorrect max vcpu setting in New VM wizard (bz 490466)
- Fix some OK/Cancel button ordering issues (bz 490207)
- Use openAuth when duplicating a connection when deleting a VM
- Updated translations (bz 493795)


xdg-utils-1.0.2-8.20081121cvs.fc11
----------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.2-8.20081121cvs
- revert.  kfmclient openURL is largely useless


xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.1-10.fc11
-------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 6.12.1-10
- radeon-6.12.1-r600-fb-size.patch: Bump fb size max on R600+ when no KMS
  so single-link dualhead stands a chance of working.


xorg-x11-server-1.6.0-19.fc11
-----------------------------

yum-3.2.22-4.fc11
-----------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org> - 3.2.22-4
- fix typo for yum-complete-transaction message.


z88dk-1.8-3.fc11
----------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 1.8-3
- fix name conflict with the getline function in POSIX 2008


zabbix-1.6.4-2.fc11
-------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dan Hor??k <dan[at]danny.cz> - 1.6.4-1
- update to 1.6.4
- remove the cpustat patch, it was integreated into upstream
- use noarch subpackage for the web interface
- database specific web subpackages conflicts with each other
- use common set of option for the configure macro
- enable IPMI support
- sqlite web subpackage must depend on local sqlite
- reorganize the docs and the sql scripts
- change how the web interface config file is created
- updated scriptlet for adding the zabbix user
- move the documentation in PDF to -docs subpackage
- most of the changes were submitted by Ville Skytt?? in #494706 
- Resolves: #489673, #493234, #494706

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dan Hor??k <dan[at]danny.cz> - 1.6.4-2
- make the -docs subpackage noarch


Summary:
Added Packages: 9
Removed Packages: 1
Modified Packages: 68






Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice





From rc040203 at freenet.de  Fri Apr 10 08:54:11 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 10:54:11 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <e692861c0904091715o25d96359t4dfb48a35ed5d3b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net>
	<49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>	<49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net>
	<49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de>	<49DCD5C8.6000308@comcast.net>
	<49DCFC9C.3030706@freenet.de>
	<e692861c0904091715o25d96359t4dfb48a35ed5d3b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49DF0933.2090800@freenet.de>

Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:
>> Correct - my opinion still is: upstream's decision is silly.
> 
> Anyone propose a patch that moves the zap to something suitably
> impossible to press accidentally? like ctrl-alt-backspace then type
> killxnow? :)
As I wrote several time before in this threat: To me, c-a-bs is an 
emergency button. Any additional action but "immediately killing X" 
voids this aspect.

>> Also, provided the hazzle this issue has caused, I am deeply convinced the
>> change would have been reverted in Fedora, if Fedora package maintainer
>> wasn't a RH employee.
> 
> Oh no! RedHat has been subverted by the conspiracy of emacs users?!
No, experience in Fedora has told many @RedHat's simply don't care about 
opinion but their own.

It's what is commonly known as "Red Hat's arrogance and ignorance".




From airlied at redhat.com  Fri Apr 10 12:15:44 2009
From: airlied at redhat.com (Dave Airlie)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 22:15:44 +1000
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DF0933.2090800@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net> <49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de>
	<49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net> <49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de>
	<49DCD5C8.6000308@comcast.net> <49DCFC9C.3030706@freenet.de>
	<e692861c0904091715o25d96359t4dfb48a35ed5d3b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DF0933.2090800@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <1239365744.23006.1.camel@localhost>

On Fri, 2009-04-10 at 10:54 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:
> >> Correct - my opinion still is: upstream's decision is silly.
> > 
> > Anyone propose a patch that moves the zap to something suitably
> > impossible to press accidentally? like ctrl-alt-backspace then type
> > killxnow? :)
> As I wrote several time before in this threat: To me, c-a-bs is an 
> emergency button. Any additional action but "immediately killing X" 
> voids this aspect.
> 
> >> Also, provided the hazzle this issue has caused, I am deeply convinced the
> >> change would have been reverted in Fedora, if Fedora package maintainer
> >> wasn't a RH employee.
> > 
> > Oh no! RedHat has been subverted by the conspiracy of emacs users?!
> No, experience in Fedora has told many @RedHat's simply don't care about 
> opinion but their own.
> 
> It's what is commonly known as "Red Hat's arrogance and ignorance".

I think you got the causality wrong, Red Hat hired us because we were
arrogant dicks that are very good at what we do in our own opinions.

We didn't become that way after we joined Red Hat.

Dave.



From ml at kiewel-online.ch  Fri Apr 10 12:20:13 2009
From: ml at kiewel-online.ch (Uwe Kiewel)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:20:13 +0200
Subject: NetworkManager - Can not store wireless pass phrase
In-Reply-To: <1239048563.28824.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49D3BD2C.3090203@kiewel-online.ch>	<1238679590.3475.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49D4C27B.20604@kiewel-online.ch>
	<1239048563.28824.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49DF397D.8080700@kiewel-online.ch>

Dan Williams wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 15:49 +0200, Uwe Kiewel wrote:
>> Julian Aloofi wrote:
>>> In general it should save your password automatically (I assume you use
>>> Fedora 10). 
>> Oh, my fault: It's Rawhide :-)
>>
>>> Maybe you should delete your WLAN from the connection list,
>>> connect, enter your password and just reboot and see whether it worked
>>> automatically.
>> I have had also this idea, but it didn't help.
> 
> Did you ever deny nm-applet or nm-connection-editor access to the Gnome
> Keyring? 

Should I?
I only did the procedure as described below. (selecting my wlan in nm's
wlan-list. I never have been prompted for keyring manager or such
applications.


> Run 'gnome-keyring-manager' or 'seahorse' ('yum install
> gnome-keyring-manager seahorse' if you don't have them installed) and
> see if nm-applet and nm-connection-editor has access to the key in
> question.

I will give this procedure a try :-)

> 
> If all else fails, you can use the atom-bomb approach and 'rm -rf
> ~/.gnome2/keyrings' and then try to set the passphrase in
> nm-connection-editor again.

I do *not* have this file.



Thanks,
	Uwe




From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 12:33:12 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 07:33:12 -0500
Subject: Open source Cg compiler?
In-Reply-To: <1239310196.16645.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <8278b1b0904071421g1556a196waa63a1b63919220c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071808250.12635@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<8278b1b0904071516k32cc4bc1rafc52389cc3cf567@mail.gmail.com>
	<grgke9$3u2$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<8278b1b0904071545k1b53c291p716530999a8aeedc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239177472.12468.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e99d27470904090540g60397cc2tc6ede23c6c4e849b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239300450.16645.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904091317i5c1df180xb1c9ca37a79fd705@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239310196.16645.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904100533j58804af9w42024d6043352f0f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 15:17 -0500, King InuYasha wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
>
>
> >         Crystal Space uses Cg. WHY? They don't even use Direct3D. The
> >         only
> >         justification for Cg instead of GLSL is if you're wanting to
> >         share
> >         shaders across OpenGL and Direct3D, in which case writing in
> >         HLSL and
> >         using ATI's tool is a non-proprietary solution. (Now how about
> >         a
> >         GLSL2HLSL compiler...)
>
> >
> > Maybe because it makes it easy to make shaders to both GLSL and HLSL?
> > For open source projects like PCSX2 which need shaders a lot, it is
> > absolutely necessary that the SL output is equivalent on OGL and D3D.
>
> Does anyone read before replying? Code in HLSL (99% similar to Cg
> anyway) and use ATI's HLSL2GLSL.
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

The problem with HLSL2GLSL is that it isn't dynamic like Cg is. They would
be stuck refreshing the GLSL every time. Now, if HLSL2GLSL could be adapted
to work like a dynamic code generator similar to Cg, then that's great! But
until then, I severely doubt Cg will be displaced anytime soon.
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From jonstanley at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 14:06:53 2009
From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 10:06:53 -0400
Subject: Plan for todays (20090410) FESCo meeting
Message-ID: <da159fda0904100706h69a5d9a7q968f5cdb764605ca@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for the late announcement......the old features are ones that
were approved for F11, but didn't make feature freeze so we're
considering them for F12 at this time.

Here's the list of topics for today's FESCo meeting.

130	Request to become sponsor: rjones
10	Review list of non-provenpackager committable packages
124	Re:  Packages with closed ACL's - LVM related items
38	DebugInfoFS - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DebuginfoFS
41	SsytemTap Static Probes -
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SystemtapStaticProbes
64	liblvm - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/liblvm
132	Multiseat - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Multiseat
133	Dracut - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Dracut

For more complete details, please visit each individual ticket.  The
report of the agenda items can be found at
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/report/9

If you would like to add something to this agenda, you can reply to
this e-mail, file a new ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/fesco,
e-mail me directly, or bring it up at the end of the meeting, during
the open floor.



From tgl at redhat.com  Fri Apr 10 14:59:46 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 10:59:46 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090410 changes 
In-Reply-To: <20090410101357.EAC041F8247@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com> 
References: <20090410101357.EAC041F8247@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <22878.1239375586@sss.pgh.pa.us>

rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report) writes:
> glibc-2.9.90-15
> ---------------
> * Thu Apr 09 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-15
> - rebuilt with fixed gcc to avoid miscompilation of i586 memmove

good ...

> - reenable experimental malloc again

ARRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!  You've got three people telling you that
code is broken, why did you turn it back on?

I demand an accounting of why we are trying to push experimental
code into a core system component post-beta.  If you want to play
with that in the f12 branch, fine, but it should not be going into
f11.

			regards, tom lane



From pertusus at free.fr  Fri Apr 10 15:04:42 2009
From: pertusus at free.fr (Patrice Dumas)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 17:04:42 +0200
Subject: Plan for todays (20090410) FESCo meeting
In-Reply-To: <da159fda0904100706h69a5d9a7q968f5cdb764605ca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <da159fda0904100706h69a5d9a7q968f5cdb764605ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090410150442.GC3616@free.fr>

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:06:53AM -0400, Jon Stanley wrote:
> Sorry for the late announcement......the old features are ones that
> were approved for F11, but didn't make feature freeze so we're
> considering them for F12 at this time.
> 
> If you would like to add something to this agenda, you can reply to
> this e-mail, file a new ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/fesco,
> e-mail me directly, or bring it up at the end of the meeting, during
> the open floor.

FESCo could 'vote' on the current
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Provenpackager_policy
which was modified based on existing content and discussions on various
mailing lists.

There are corresponding changes in 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Who_is_allowed_to_modify_which_packages
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_sponsor_a_new_contributor#Sponsoring_provenpackagers
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_get_sponsored_into_the_packager_group#Provenpackagers

There were also changes in 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_sponsor_responsibilities


The overall states of policies in the wiki should certainly be enhanced,
currently there is no way to know which page in 
'Pages in category "Package Maintainers"' correspond with official 
policies.

For instance, is
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_maintainer_responsibilities
an official policy? 

It isn't linked from 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_maintainer_policy
(like proven packagers policy and sponsor responsibilities).

And, maybe 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_maintainer_policy
could be more visible in the 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers
front page.

Last it is still unclear to me who is responsible for the policy pages
FESCo or the community? Since there are open acl, it means the
community, but maybe FESCo should delegate somebody who gets a notice
for every page change corresponding with th epolicies, to verify that
they are not altered, and that things voted by FESCo are put in the 
pages.

--
Pat



From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr 10 15:09:36 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 08:09:36 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 Snapshot 1
Message-ID: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>

This is the first and final snapshot before our final devel freeze
(April 14th) and subsequent preview release.  On the torrent sites
you'll find live images for testing.  http://torrent.fedoraproject.org
and http://spins.fedoraproject.org

Lots of work has gone into the storage code of Anaconda since the Beta
release, please do re-test with these images if you had difficulty
installing the Beta.

Please use bugzilla (
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_file_a_bug_report ) to report any
problems you find (after making sure that somebody else hasn't already
reported the issues).  The Beta release notes
( https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Beta_release_notes ) still
mostly apply.

Thanks and happy testing!

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce

From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr 10 15:26:57 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 08:26:57 -0700
Subject: Final Development Freeze Coming!!
Message-ID: <1239377217.7037.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>

The final devel freeze for Fedora 11 is this coming Tuesday.  After that
point, any changes will have to be explicitly approved as per
the Final Freeze policy[1].

Now would be a very very good time to check the Fedora 11 Blocker[2] and
Tracker[3] bugs for things that involve your packages.

There is only this week's snapshot, then the preview release before our
final release.  Lets work hard and together to make Fedora 11 awesome!

It should be obvious, but /please/ avoid any risky change in your
packages at this point, or any change that will effect large swaths of
packages.


[1]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/FinalFreezePolicy
[2]:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=F11Blocker&hide_resolved=1
[3]:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=F11Target&hide_resolved=1
-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce

From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com  Fri Apr 10 15:56:09 2009
From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 17:56:09 +0200
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <20090409222012.GA3830@free.fr>
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
	<1239299873.3115.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090409222012.GA3830@free.fr>
Message-ID: <1239378969.3155.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Freitag, den 10.04.2009, 00:20 +0200 schrieb Patrice Dumas:
> On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 01:57:53PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > 
> > hicolor-icon-theme is the owner of that directory. 
> > All the others are just squatters.
> 
> Depends if they have a dependency on the package or not.

As I wrote in my previous mail: All GTK based packages already have a
dependency on hicolor-icon-theme through the GTK2 package, no need to
list it explicitly. 

> --
> Pat

Regards,
Christoph



From jkeating at j2solutions.net  Fri Apr 10 16:30:12 2009
From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:30:12 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090410 changes
In-Reply-To: <22878.1239375586@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <20090410101357.EAC041F8247@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<22878.1239375586@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239381012.7037.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-10 at 10:59 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> > - reenable experimental malloc again
> 
> ARRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!  You've got three people telling you that
> code is broken, why did you turn it back on?

Which three people are those?  Of all the problems we were facing in
buildroots and rawhide creation, none of them could be attributed to the
malloc code.  None.  If you have empirical proof, where is the bug
report?

> I demand an accounting of why we are trying to push experimental
> code into a core system component post-beta.  If you want to play
> with that in the f12 branch, fine, but it should not be going into
> f11.
> 
-- 
Jesse Keating RHCE      (http://jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project          (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key          (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)
identi.ca               (http://identi.ca/jkeating)
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr 10 16:33:12 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:33:12 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090410 changes
In-Reply-To: <24600.1239380846@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <20090410101357.EAC041F8247@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<22878.1239375586@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239377630.7037.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<24600.1239380846@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239381192.7037.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-10 at 12:27 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494631
> 
> (And yes, mysql is broken again today on x86_64.  Perhaps Andy can
> report on the current state of Emacs.)

I'm still not seeing proof, just speculation.  However listing bugs is
much better than spouting off with vague statements about three
(unnamed) people.

We're quick to blame, but the target of our blame is not always correct.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From tgl at redhat.com  Fri Apr 10 16:46:26 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 12:46:26 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090410 changes 
In-Reply-To: <1239381192.7037.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <20090410101357.EAC041F8247@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<22878.1239375586@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239377630.7037.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<24600.1239380846@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239381192.7037.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <24937.1239381986@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> On Fri, 2009-04-10 at 12:27 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494631

> I'm still not seeing proof, just speculation.

Well, let's see:

1. I've traced the mysql build failure far enough to know that it is
dumping core inside a calloc call.

2. The crash happens with glibc-2.9.90-12, not with -14, again with -15.

3. It happens with mysql 5.1.32 as well as 5.1.33, meaning I've got a
due-to-be-released-if-I-can't-update-it package that FTBFS.

Now, I do not have proof at this point that it's really a glibc bug
and not a glibc behavioral change that is within spec but tickles some
previously unseen mysql bug.  It's highly unlikely that I could prove
anything either way before Tuesday's freeze, especially if I harbor
any illusions about being able to take the holiday off.  Whichever way
it falls out, we've got an unnecessary change in a core system library
destabilizing things just a few days before "final freeze", and I am not
happy about that.

			regards, tom lane



From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr 10 17:18:59 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 10:18:59 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090410 changes
In-Reply-To: <24937.1239381986@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <20090410101357.EAC041F8247@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<22878.1239375586@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239377630.7037.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<24600.1239380846@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239381192.7037.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<24937.1239381986@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239383939.7037.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-10 at 12:46 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Whichever way
> it falls out, we've got an unnecessary change in a core system library
> destabilizing things just a few days before "final freeze", and I am not
> happy about that.

Neither am I.  I'm happy with just -12 broke it, -14 didn't, -15 did.
I'd rather the glibc folks figure out which change in between those is
really the problem, because the malloc change isn't the only one there.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From orion at cora.nwra.com  Fri Apr 10 18:13:29 2009
From: orion at cora.nwra.com (Orion Poplawski)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 12:13:29 -0600
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <49DF8C49.4060506@cora.nwra.com>

Ville Skytt? wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Quite a few packages that produce *-debuginfo without sources have crept again 
> in rawhide.  See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Debuginfo for 
> possible reasons, the most usual of which in my (past, haven't checked this 
> batch that closely) experience is failure to honor $RPM_OPT_FLAGS during build 
> which can also mean that the default security related compiler flags aren't 
> being applied either.

Thanks.  Fixed GMT and wgrib2.

-- 
Orion Poplawski
Technical Manager                     303-415-9701 x222
NWRA/CoRA Division                    FAX: 303-415-9702
3380 Mitchell Lane                  orion at cora.nwra.com
Boulder, CO 80301              http://www.cora.nwra.com



From greno at verizon.net  Fri Apr 10 20:19:21 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 16:19:21 -0400
Subject: Is there an upgrade path from 32-bit to 64-bit?
Message-ID: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>

We're finally getting rid of the last of our 32-bit hardware and now we 
would like to migrate all machines over to 64-bit.  I explored this 
migration idea a couple years ago on the mailing lists and basically the 
answer was - don't know.  The few who had tried said that the ended up 
with a running system but that it had some weird quirks every now and 
then.  Has anyone managed to successfully migrate a system from 32-bit 
to 64-bit using either anaconda upgrade or yum upgrade without ending up 
with a lot of quirks?  Is there some recipe for doing this successfully?

Regards,
Gerry



From gmaxwell at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 21:00:16 2009
From: gmaxwell at gmail.com (Gregory Maxwell)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 17:00:16 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DF0933.2090800@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org> <49DCB6BE.8010400@comcast.net>
	<49DCC1FC.9060105@freenet.de> <49DCC712.7010107@comcast.net>
	<49DCD0F4.90109@freenet.de> <49DCD5C8.6000308@comcast.net>
	<49DCFC9C.3030706@freenet.de>
	<e692861c0904091715o25d96359t4dfb48a35ed5d3b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<49DF0933.2090800@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <e692861c0904101400x9711cb2gc1dd683c17ccc3a3@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 4:54 AM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:
> Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Correct - my opinion still is: upstream's decision is silly.
>>
>> Anyone propose a patch that moves the zap to something suitably
>> impossible to press accidentally? like ctrl-alt-backspace then type
>> killxnow? :)
>
> As I wrote several time before in this threat: To me, c-a-bs is an emergency
> button. Any additional action but "immediately killing X" voids this aspect.

Perhaps I was unclear?  I wasn't suggesting there be a popup asking if
you're really sure.
I was suggesting that the key sequence be changed to something that is
actually impossible to
press accidentally.  If such a change were made it would eliminate the
only argument for disabling the zap button, as far as I can tell.

(And yes, it's quite possible to press the current button accidentally)

I think the biggest problem with that proposal is keymap issues,
although that exists for c-a-bs too.



From mclasen at redhat.com  Sat Apr 11 01:19:41 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:19:41 -0400
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <20090409222012.GA3830@free.fr>
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
	<1239299873.3115.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090409222012.GA3830@free.fr>
Message-ID: <1239412781.3980.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-10 at 00:20 +0200, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 01:57:53PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > 
> > hicolor-icon-theme is the owner of that directory. 
> > All the others are just squatters.
> 
> Depends if they have a dependency on the package or not.

The sole purpose of hicolor-icon-theme is to own these directories. 
If you install something there, you ought to have a dependency on it.



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Sat Apr 11 12:53:17 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:53:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090411 changes
Message-ID: <20090411125317.BC4951B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Sat Apr 11 06:15:09 UTC 2009

New package astronomy-backgrounds
        Desktop wallpapers with Astronomy theme
New package debmirror
        Debian partial mirror script, with ftp and package pool support
New package fcoe-utils
        Fibre Channel over Ethernet utilities
New package libhbalinux
        FC-HBAAPI implementation using scsi_transport_fc interfaces
New package libkate
        Libraries to handle the Kate bitstream format
New package lv2dynparam
        LV2 dynamic parameters extension
New package mod_perlite
        Kinder, gentler embedded Perl for the Apache HTTP Server
New package rear
        Relax and Recover (ReaR) is a Linux Disaster Recovery framework
New package shntool
        A multi-purpose WAVE data processing and reporting utility
New package skyviewer
        Program to display HEALPix-based skymaps in FITS files
Updated Packages:

BackupPC-3.1.0-5.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Johan Cwiklinski <johan AT x-tnd DOT be> 3.1.0-5
- Fix TopDir change (bug #473944)


GMT-4.4.0-2.fc11
----------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Orion Poplawski <orion at cora.nwra.com> 4.4.0-2
- Add --enable-debug to avoid stripping of -g from CFLAGS


alevt-1.6.2-10.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Lucian Langa <cooly at gnome.eu.org> - 1.6.2-10
- new patch for chrilic fonts from Alexey Loukianov (mooroon2 at mail.ru)
- updated doublefont patch


auriferous-1.0.1-7.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at redhat.com> 1.0.1-7
- Remove non free jungle.ogg song


authconfig-5.4.9-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Tomas Mraz <tmraz at redhat.com> - 5.4.9-1
- add support for multiple PAM auth stacks (by Ray Strode) (#494874)


avogadro-0.9.3-1.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Sebastian Dziallas <sebastian at when.com> 0.9.3-1
- update to new release


bashdb-4.0_0.3-2.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Paulo Roma <roma at lcg.ufrj.br> 4.0_0.3-2
- Updated to 4.0-0.3 for supporting bash 4.0
- Added building option "with tests".


bltk-1.0.8-2.fc11
-----------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Jiri Skala <jskala at redhat.com> 1.0.8-2
- optimized bltk.conf - SOFFICE_PROG
- fixed working dir in reports
- fixed SIGHUP handling
- finalized implementation of stop file in office and reader WLs


bouncycastle-mail-1.42-2.fc11
-----------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget [DOT] fedora [AT] gmail [DOT] com> - 1.42-2
- Add missing Requires: javamail
- Remove redundant BR: junit4


clamav-0.95.1-1.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.95.1-1
- Upgrade to 0.95.1 (#495039)


corrida-0.96.11-4.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Lubomir Rintel (Fedora Astronomy) <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 0.96.11-4
- Automatically increment the meteor number (#494526)


db4o-6.1-5.fc11
---------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 6.1-5
- Alter excludearch to exclusivearch
- Remove ppc build


docbook-dtds-1.0-46.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Stepan Kasal <skasal at redhat.com> - 1.0-46
- remove perl dependency (#462997)
- make %install and the scriptlets more compact


emacs-22.3-11.fc11
------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Daniel Novotny <dnovotny at redhat.com> 1:22.3-11
- fix bz#443549 -  spell-buffer, flyspell-mode do not work


evolution-2.26.0-3.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-3.fc11
- Fix directory ownership


geoclue-0.11.1.1-0.3.20090310git3a31d26.fc11
--------------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> 0.11.1.1-0.3
- Fix install of test gui


gnome-commander-1.2.8-0.3.svn2532_trunk.fc11
--------------------------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Mamour Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
- rev 2532


gnome-disk-utility-0.3-0.3.20090406git.fc11
-------------------------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.3-0.3.20090406git.fc11
- Don't own directories that belong to hicolor-icon-theme


gnome-scan-0.6.2-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Deji Akingunola <dakingun at gmail.com> - 0.6.2-1
- Update to version 0.6.2


gthumb-2.10.11-3.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.10.11-3
- Fix directory ownership


gvfs-1.2.1-4.fc11
-----------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1.2.1-4
- No need for bash completion to be executable


hardinfo-0.5.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Adel Gadllah <adel.gadllah at gmail.com> 0.5.1-1
- Update to 0.5.1


inkscape-0.47-0.6.20090410svn.fc11
----------------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 0.47-0.6.20090410svn
- Update to newer snapshot
- Fix doc/incview reversed subpackage content


kde-plasma-runcommand-1.1-2.fc11
--------------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik at redhat.com> 1.1-1
- update to 1.1

* Fri Apr 10 2009 Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik at redhat.com> 1.1-2
- adds missing gettext BR


kdelibs-4.2.2-5.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 4.2.2-5
- fix bidi-related hangs in khtml (kde#189161)


ktorrent-3.2.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 3.2.1-1
- ktorrent-3.2.1
- optimize scriptlets


leonidas-backgrounds-10.93.0-1.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Martin Sourada <mso at fedoraproject.org> - 10.93.0-1
- Add lion backgrounds
- Split -common (shared between GNOME and KDE), -kdm (simplified version for 
  KDM) and -landscape (F11 Leonidas Beta wallpapers) subpackages


libdrm-2.4.6-4.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 2.4.6-4
- libdrm-2.4.7-revert-bong.patch - revert connector "speedups"


lirc-0.8.5-1.pre2.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Jarod Wilson <jarod at redhat.com> 0.8.5-0.1.pre2
- Update to lirc 0.8.5pre2 cvs snapshot


mesa-7.5-0.9.fc11
-----------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> - 7.5-0.9
- fix sparc64 asm


mono-addins-0.4-5.20091702svn127062.1.fc11
------------------------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> - 0.4-5.20091702svn127062.1
- Exclude ppc


monotorrent-0.72-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 0.72-1
- Fix URL
- update to 0.72


nautilus-cd-burner-2.25.3-6.fc11
--------------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.25.3-6
- Fix directory ownership


nsd-3.2.1-6.fc11
----------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Ville Mattila <vmattila at csc.fi> - 3.2.1-6
- Make various file paths used by the nsd.init script configurable
  from /etc/sysconfig/nsd.
- Add template /etc/sysconfig/nsd.


opengl-games-utils-0.1-8.fc11
-----------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at redhat.com> 0.1-8
- Recognize software rendering as such with new Mesa which always says
  DRI = Yes (rh 494174)


pam-1.0.91-6.fc11
-----------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Tomas Mraz <tmraz at redhat.com> 1.0.91-6
- add password-auth, fingerprint-auth, and smartcard-auth
  for applications which can use them namely gdm (#494874)
  patch by Ray Strode


perl-5.10.0-68.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Marcela Ma??l????ov?? <mmaslano at redhat.com> - 4:5.10.0-68
- 495183 don't use special characters in spec according to patchlevel.h.
 It breaks installation from cpan.


perl-Template-Timer-1.00-1.fc11
-------------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 1.00-1
- update to 1.00


qjackctl-0.3.3-3.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> 0.3.3-3
- Fix close button not shown with Qt 4.5 (#494471)


qsynth-0.3.3-4.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> 0.3.3-4
- Fix close button not shown with Qt 4.5 (#494470)


rawstudio-1.2-1.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Gianluca Sforna <giallu gmail com> - 1.2-1
- New upstream release


roundcubemail-0.2.1-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> = 0.2.1-1
- New upstream.


seahorse-2.26.0-2.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> 2.26.0-2
- Fix directory ownership


setup-2.8.3-1.fc11
------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Ondrej Vasik <ovasik at redhat.com> 2.8.3-1
- do not disable coredumps in profile/csh.cshrc scripts,
  coredumps already disabled in rawhide's RLIMIT_CORE(#495035)


torcs-1.3.1-1.fc11
------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1.3.1-1
- Update to 1.3.1.
- Remove the drivers sub-package since only one is provided upstream now and
  it's mandatory (all of the separate drivers seem to be merged there now).


torcs-data-1.3.1-1
------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1.3.1-1
- Update to 1.3.1.
- Remove no longer existing upstream cars-nascar sub-package (merged in).


tracker-0.6.93-1.fc11
---------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Deji Akingunola <dakingun at gmail.com> - 0.6.93-1
- Update to 0.6.93 release


tuned-0.1.5-1.fc11
------------------
* Wed Mar 25 2009 Phil Knirsch <pknirsch at redhat.com> - 0.1.5-1
- Updated documentation, thanks to Marcela Maslanova!
- Updated diskdevstat and netdevstat to have command line arguments
- Added the possibility to output a histogram at the end of the
  run for detailed information about the collected data


tuxcmd-0.6.62-git20090409.2.fc11
--------------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Tomas Bzatek <tbzatek at redhat.com> 0.6.62-git20090409.2
- Fix vfs modules detection on 64bit archs
- Remove unnecessary Requires (#473992)


wgrib2-1.7.8g-1.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Orion Poplawski <orion at cora.nwra.com> - 1.7.8g-1
- Update to 1.7.8g
- Fix up flags patch to preserve CFLAGS from environment


xfce4-wavelan-plugin-0.5.5-1.fc11
---------------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.5.5-1
- Update to 0.5.5


xine-lib-1.1.16.3-2.fc11
------------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 1.1.16.3-2
- fix modtracker mimetypes


zoneminder-1.24.1-2.fc11
------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Martin Ebourne <martin at zepler.org> - 1.24.1-2
- Update gcc44 patch to disable -frepo, seems to be broken with gcc44
- Added noffmpeg patch to make building outside mock easier

* Sat Mar 21 2009 Martin Ebourne <martin at zepler.org> - 1.24.1-1
- Patch for gcc 4.4 compilation errors
- Upgrade to 1.24.1


Summary:
Added Packages: 10
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 53
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	zoneminder-1.24.1-2.fc11.i586 requires perl(Sys::Mmap)



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	zoneminder-1.24.1-2.fc11.x86_64 requires perl(Sys::Mmap)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Setup) = 0:0.4.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Gui) = 0:0.4.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono-addins
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins) = 0:0.4.0.0
	banshee-devel-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires pkgconfig(mono-addins)
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins) = 0:0.4.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Gui) = 0:0.4.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Setup) = 0:0.4.0.0
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins) = 0:0.4.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono-addins
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Setup) = 0:0.4.0.0
	zoneminder-1.24.1-2.fc11.ppc requires perl(Sys::Mmap)



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	zoneminder-1.24.1-2.fc11.ppc64 requires perl(Sys::Mmap)





From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Sat Apr 11 17:31:35 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 23:01:35 +0530
Subject: Anjuta & gnome-build file conflicts: need some help
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904111031v3f052aa1s30aca48b2ab5367d@mail.gmail.com>

Here is the bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/495200

After gnome-build got merged into Anjuta, I had added the following to
anjuta.spec:
Obsoletes:      gnome-build <= 2.24.1-1
Provides:       perl(GBF::Make) = %{version}-%{release}

It was not entirely clear to me from the guidelines [1] whether to add
a 'Provides: gnome-build = %{version}-%{release}' or not. It seems
like adding it is not making much of a difference if I have an old F10
gnome-build package lying around and I am trying to install a F11
anjuta package.

I am sure my knowledge of Obsoletes and Provides is not really upto
the mark here, so any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Debarshi

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:NamingGuidelines#Renaming.2Freplacing_existing_packages
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From ascii79 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 11 17:41:33 2009
From: ascii79 at gmail.com (Sachin)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:41:33 -0500
Subject: KMS @ grub
Message-ID: <a3c040240904111041r28793187pdf5219bbad7609a4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi

Will it be possible to enable the KMS at the time of grub itself ?

Regards.
Sachin.
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From psmith at fedoraproject.org  Sat Apr 11 17:50:15 2009
From: psmith at fedoraproject.org (psmith)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:50:15 +0100
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using livecd-iso-to-disk
 or liveusb-creator
Message-ID: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>

we were talking on this list a few weeks back about making live spins 
available in a usb format instead of just an iso and it was said that it 
would incur more work and that because of the script and program 
mentioned in the title there was no need, well it turns out that 
mandriva have made iso's that are both usb and cdr compatible, all 
that's needed to put the iso on usb is a dd command,

dd if=foo.iso of=/dev/usb-diskname bs=8M

for more info check here >> 
http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2009.1_RC_2#Hybrid_ISOs

is this something that fedora would consider?

phil

i don't know if that this is new info or not, or how they do it but i 
thought it interesting and i think all distros should head this way for 
live releases.

phil



From bruno at wolff.to  Sat Apr 11 17:57:02 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:57:02 -0500
Subject: Anjuta & gnome-build file conflicts: need some help
In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0904111031v3f052aa1s30aca48b2ab5367d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3170f42f0904111031v3f052aa1s30aca48b2ab5367d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090411175702.GA21220@wolff.to>

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 23:01:35 +0530,
  Debarshi Ray <debarshi.ray at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is the bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/495200
> 
> After gnome-build got merged into Anjuta, I had added the following to
> anjuta.spec:
> Obsoletes:      gnome-build <= 2.24.1-1
> Provides:       perl(GBF::Make) = %{version}-%{release}
> 
> It was not entirely clear to me from the guidelines [1] whether to add
> a 'Provides: gnome-build = %{version}-%{release}' or not. It seems
> like adding it is not making much of a difference if I have an old F10
> gnome-build package lying around and I am trying to install a F11
> anjuta package.

When we were discussing the bug report about that a couple of months
ago I asked you to try adding a ".fc11" to that as it is part of the
release name and 2.24.1-1 is NOT <= 2.24.1-1.fc11 .
You might want to retest that.



From mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp  Sat Apr 11 17:56:11 2009
From: mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Mamoru Tasaka)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 02:56:11 +0900
Subject: Anjuta & gnome-build file conflicts: need some help
In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0904111031v3f052aa1s30aca48b2ab5367d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3170f42f0904111031v3f052aa1s30aca48b2ab5367d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E0D9BB.1060801@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>

Debarshi Ray wrote, at 04/12/2009 02:31 AM +9:00:
> Here is the bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/495200
> 
> After gnome-build got merged into Anjuta, I had added the following to
> anjuta.spec:
> Obsoletes:      gnome-build <= 2.24.1-1
> Provides:       perl(GBF::Make) = %{version}-%{release}

First of all, this does not "Obsoletes" 2.24.1-1.fc10 because
2.24.1-1 < 2.24.1-1".fc10" .

> It was not entirely clear to me from the guidelines [1] whether to add
> a 'Provides: gnome-build = %{version}-%{release}' or not. It seems
> like adding it is not making much of a difference if I have an old F10
> gnome-build package lying around and I am trying to install a F11
> anjuta package.

Well, if you don't think rawhide anjuta really "Provides" gnome-build
you don't have to add virtual "Provides" (however the problem here
is not whether to add "Provides" or not)

> I am sure my knowledge of Obsoletes and Provides is not really upto
> the mark here, so any help would be much appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> Debarshi
> 
> [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:NamingGuidelines#Renaming.2Freplacing_existing_packages

Regards,
Mamoru



From drago01 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 11 18:06:15 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:06:15 +0200
Subject: KMS @ grub
In-Reply-To: <a3c040240904111041r28793187pdf5219bbad7609a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a3c040240904111041r28793187pdf5219bbad7609a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904111106g5054acefs503b6b8e97eeb3b4@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Sachin <ascii79 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Will it be possible to enable the KMS at the time of grub itself ?

no



From bruno at wolff.to  Sat Apr 11 18:20:08 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:20:08 -0500
Subject: Anjuta & gnome-build file conflicts: need some help
In-Reply-To: <20090411175702.GA21220@wolff.to>
References: <3170f42f0904111031v3f052aa1s30aca48b2ab5367d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090411175702.GA21220@wolff.to>
Message-ID: <20090411182008.GA27753@wolff.to>

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 12:57:02 -0500,
  Bruno Wolff III <bruno at wolff.to> wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 23:01:35 +0530,
>   Debarshi Ray <debarshi.ray at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Here is the bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/495200
> > 
> > After gnome-build got merged into Anjuta, I had added the following to
> > anjuta.spec:
> > Obsoletes:      gnome-build <= 2.24.1-1
> > Provides:       perl(GBF::Make) = %{version}-%{release}
> > 
> > It was not entirely clear to me from the guidelines [1] whether to add
> > a 'Provides: gnome-build = %{version}-%{release}' or not. It seems
> > like adding it is not making much of a difference if I have an old F10
> > gnome-build package lying around and I am trying to install a F11
> > anjuta package.
> 
> When we were discussing the bug report about that a couple of months
> ago I asked you to try adding a ".fc11" to that as it is part of the
> release name and 2.24.1-1 is NOT <= 2.24.1-1.fc11 .
> You might want to retest that.

Actually it appears to have been "fc10" not "fc11" as gnome-build was
obsoleted before it was rebuilt for F11.



From dgboles at comcast.net  Sat Apr 11 19:08:58 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:08:58 -0400
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
 livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net>

On 4/11/2009 1:50 PM, psmith wrote:
> we were talking on this list a few weeks back about making live spins
> available in a usb format instead of just an iso and it was said that it
> would incur more work and that because of the script and program
> mentioned in the title there was no need, well it turns out that
> mandriva have made iso's that are both usb and cdr compatible, all
> that's needed to put the iso on usb is a dd command,

> dd if=foo.iso of=/dev/usb-diskname bs=8M

> for more info check here >>
> http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2009.1_RC_2#Hybrid_ISOs

> is this something that fedora would consider?

> phil

> i don't know if that this is new info or not, or how they do it but i
> thought it interesting and i think all distros should head this way for
> live releases.

> phil


This one works well.

liveusb-creator

https://fedorahosted.org/liveusb-creator/

and it's already in Fedora 10 and up. You can make your own.  :-)

-- 


  David



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Sat Apr 11 19:18:11 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 00:48:11 +0530
Subject: Anjuta & gnome-build file conflicts: need some help
In-Reply-To: <20090411182008.GA27753@wolff.to>
References: <3170f42f0904111031v3f052aa1s30aca48b2ab5367d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090411175702.GA21220@wolff.to> <20090411182008.GA27753@wolff.to>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904111218y32410f01xd675c4f6aebe1f99@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you everybody. Problem solved.

Cheerio,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From poelstra at redhat.com  Fri Apr 10 21:52:36 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:52:36 -0700
Subject: All Features Need to be 100% by Final Development Freeze
	(2009-04-14)
Message-ID: <49DFBFA4.3080804@redhat.com>

Hello Feature People  :)

If all goes as planned, as previously announced by Jesse Keating, the 
Final Development Freeze will happen this coming Tuesday, April 14, 2009.

Final Development Freeze, defined here: 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/FinalFreezePolicy means 
that all features and their associated feature pages must be at 100% 
completion by this date.  The following features do not currently meet 
this criteria and need to by April 14, 2009.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/20SecondStartup
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AnacondaStorageRewrite
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ControlGroups
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DNSSEC
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Ext4DefaultFs
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/gcc4.4
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/IBus
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/IntelKMS
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewTextUI
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NouveauModesetting
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MultiplePAMStacksInGDM
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PowerManagement
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Python_2.6
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Radeon3DUpdate
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RPM4.7
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/StrongerHashes
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/EFI
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/VolumeControl
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/XserverOnePointSix

We understand that software is never 100% complete, however given the 
wide audience that refers to our feature page list it does not make 
sense to advertise something that isn't there.

Please make one last update to your feature page to make it reflect 
everything that is complete for Fedora 10.  Functionality this is not 
complete should be removed or clearly labled as scheduled for a future 
release so that what is advertised for being in Fedora 11 is 100% 
present and complete.

I will raise feature pages not at 100% with FESCo on April 17, 2009. 
Hopefully my job will be easy and there there won't be any :-).

Thanks,
John

_______________________________________________
Fedora-devel-announce mailing list
Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce



From cdahlin at redhat.com  Sat Apr 11 19:58:39 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:58:39 -0400
Subject: KMS @ grub
In-Reply-To: <a3c040240904111041r28793187pdf5219bbad7609a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a3c040240904111041r28793187pdf5219bbad7609a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E0F66F.3060208@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sachin wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Will it be possible to enable the KMS at the time of grub itself ?
> 
> Regards.
> Sachin.
> 
> 
Not sure which question you're asking.

The modeset and nomodeset kernel options will turn KMS on and off when
booting.

If you're asking if the kernel can set the mode during grub, then no.
The kernel is not running when grub runs, so it can't do anything. Grub
itself uses the standard VESA interface to the graphics hardware, so it
can't really do any interesting modesetting by itself either.

- --CJD
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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From psmith at fedoraproject.org  Sat Apr 11 20:20:38 2009
From: psmith at fedoraproject.org (psmith)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:20:38 +0100
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
 livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org> <49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org>

David wrote:
> On 4/11/2009 1:50 PM, psmith wrote:
>   
>> we were talking on this list a few weeks back about making live spins
>> available in a usb format instead of just an iso and it was said that it
>> would incur more work and that because of the script and program
>> mentioned in the title there was no need, well it turns out that
>> mandriva have made iso's that are both usb and cdr compatible, all
>> that's needed to put the iso on usb is a dd command,
>>     
>
>   
>> dd if=foo.iso of=/dev/usb-diskname bs=8M
>>     
>
>   
>> for more info check here >>
>> http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2009.1_RC_2#Hybrid_ISOs
>>     
>
>   
>> is this something that fedora would consider?
>>     
>
>   
>> phil
>>     
>
>   
>> i don't know if that this is new info or not, or how they do it but i
>> thought it interesting and i think all distros should head this way for
>> live releases.
>>     
>
>   
>> phil
>>     
>
>
> This one works well.
>
> liveusb-creator
>
> https://fedorahosted.org/liveusb-creator/
>
> and it's already in Fedora 10 and up. You can make your own.  :-)
>
>   
like i said it was brought up that liveusb-creator and 
livecd-iso-to-disk were available, but both of these are additional 
packages and incur resource usage where as releasing an iso that is both 
usb and cdr compatible saves resources and makes the step of writing to 
usb a simple one, granted liveusb-creator and livecd-iso-to-disk are 
easy enough to use but they are an additional download where as dd is 
installed by default. i can see no reason not to use this dual format 
for live releases, and if you think that because tools are available to 
use the existing method is a valid reason not to move forward with other 
more useful methods then i don't know what to say :-/

phil



From camilo at mesias.co.uk  Sat Apr 11 21:08:31 2009
From: camilo at mesias.co.uk (Camilo Mesias)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:08:31 +0100
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using 
	livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org> <49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net>
	<49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <d551e0e20904111408u23dad97enf3925ae36bb3459@mail.gmail.com>

Phil,

>  i can see no
> reason not to use this dual format for live releases, and if you think that
> because tools are available to use the existing method is a valid reason not
> to move forward with other more useful methods then i don't know what to say
> :-/

The iso is less useful than the existing method. The existing tools
can perform all sorts of checks, whereas dd is open to  mis-use. The
existing tools are non-destructive so I can have a load of general
purpose info (eg. Windows / Linux diagnostic tools and important data
files (ssh or WPA keys). The USB disk remains cross-platform readable.
I could do all this with the iso but would have to put multiple
partitions on the device, and it starts to get more complex...

I think the only way the existing tools could be improved is perhaps a
GUI version and the ability to have several images on one disk and a
boot menu to select between them.

-Cam



From dgboles at comcast.net  Sat Apr 11 22:03:04 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:03:04 -0400
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
 livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net> <49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49E11398.8050603@comcast.net>

On 4/11/2009 4:20 PM, psmith wrote:
> David wrote:
>> On 4/11/2009 1:50 PM, psmith wrote:

>>> we were talking on this list a few weeks back about making live spins
>>> available in a usb format instead of just an iso and it was said that it
>>> would incur more work and that because of the script and program
>>> mentioned in the title there was no need, well it turns out that
>>> mandriva have made iso's that are both usb and cdr compatible, all
>>> that's needed to put the iso on usb is a dd command,



>>> dd if=foo.iso of=/dev/usb-diskname bs=8M



>>> for more info check here >>
>>> http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2009.1_RC_2#Hybrid_ISOs



>>> is this something that fedora would consider?



>>> phil



>>> i don't know if that this is new info or not, or how they do it but i
>>> thought it interesting and i think all distros should head this way for
>>> live releases.



>>> phil



>> This one works well.

>> liveusb-creator

>> https://fedorahosted.org/liveusb-creator/

>> and it's already in Fedora 10 and up. You can make your own.  :-)


> like i said it was brought up that liveusb-creator and
> livecd-iso-to-disk were available, but both of these are additional
> packages and incur resource usage where as releasing an iso that is both
> usb and cdr compatible saves resources and makes the step of writing to
> usb a simple one, granted liveusb-creator and livecd-iso-to-disk are
> easy enough to use but they are an additional download where as dd is
> installed by default. i can see no reason not to use this dual format
> for live releases, and if you think that because tools are available to
> use the existing method is a valid reason not to move forward with other
> more useful methods then i don't know what to say :-/

> phil

So what you are saying it that you want all of the mirrors to carry both a
CD ISO and a USB ISO? One each for Gnome and KDE.

Ping. Both are the same animal guy. The same ISO that you would burn to a CD
is the same ISO that you would write to a USB stick. It all depends on what
you use to install it where.

-- 


  David



From opensource at till.name  Sat Apr 11 22:56:45 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 00:56:45 +0200
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
 livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <200904120056.51456.opensource@till.name>

On Sa April 11 2009, psmith wrote:

> dd if=foo.iso of=/dev/usb-diskname bs=8M
>
> for more info check here >>
> http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2009.1_RC_2#Hybrid_ISOs
>
> is this something that fedora would consider?

I hope so. Do you have more info about how to create such images? Obviously 
they need to contain a MBR and a partition table, which they do, but is this 
enough?

> i don't know if that this is new info or not, or how they do it but i
> thought it interesting and i think all distros should head this way for
> live releases.

It is probably better addressed at the fedora livecd mailinglist at:
fedora-livecd-list redhat.com (please add the missing "@").

Regards,
Till
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From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Sun Apr 12 01:08:48 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:08:48 -0400
Subject: All Features Need to be 100% by Final Development Freeze
 (2009-04-14)
Message-ID: <49E13F20.6070007@bwh.harvard.edu>

I know Presto is listed as 100% complete, but in this case, it's not 
just a matter of the OS being ready - unless the mirrors are 
Presto-enabled as well, the yum-presto plugin is useless.  The one 
32-bit and one 64-bit server which are currently available would melt 
down if everyone tried to use them at once.  According to

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePresto

there was supposed to be a test for f11alpha->f11beta upgrades, which 
never happened, the page still hasn't been updated, there is no sign  of 
the rawhide repos being Presto-enabled, and the scheduled release is 
only about 1 1/2 months away.
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From otto_rey at yahoo.com.ar  Sun Apr 12 03:52:15 2009
From: otto_rey at yahoo.com.ar (Otto Rey)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:52:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for Fedora 11?
Message-ID: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


I know that maybe it's to late, but: any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (latest upstream release, DRI enabled) for Fedora 11?

Thanks


      Yahoo! Cocina
Recetas pr?cticas y comida saludable
http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/



From jdieter at gmail.com  Sun Apr 12 06:53:47 2009
From: jdieter at gmail.com (Jonathan Dieter)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 09:53:47 +0300
Subject: All Features Need to be 100% by Final Development Freeze
 (2009-04-14)
In-Reply-To: <49E13F20.6070007@bwh.harvard.edu>
References: <49E13F20.6070007@bwh.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <1239519227.3075.12.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>

On Sat, 2009-04-11 at 21:08 -0400, Andre Robatino wrote:
> I know Presto is listed as 100% complete, but in this case, it's not 
> just a matter of the OS being ready - unless the mirrors are 
> Presto-enabled as well, the yum-presto plugin is useless.

> The one 32-bit and one 64-bit server which are currently available
> would melt down if everyone tried to use them at once.

Absolutely right.  Usage of the 32-bit server has jumped over the last
few months, but we're still in use by far less than 1000 people, and
we'll hit our bandwidth limits in the foreseeable future.

> According to
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePresto
> 
> there was supposed to be a test for f11alpha->f11beta upgrades, which 
> never happened, the page still hasn't been updated, there is no sign  of 
> the rawhide repos being Presto-enabled, and the scheduled release is 
> only about 1 1/2 months away.

I know we really do need to test this.  The reason we weren't able to
test alpha->beta is that deltarpm needed some changes before it would be
able generate deltarpms for the new rpm format.  That was done just
after beta.

Is there any way that we can generate the deltarpms to test this for
beta->preview?

Jonathan
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From nikolay at vladimiroff.com  Sun Apr 12 09:16:21 2009
From: nikolay at vladimiroff.com (Nikolay Vladimirov)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 12:16:21 +0300
Subject: compiz update ?
Message-ID: <a2e85ed0904120216t1ac57e61k328f412f612beec1@mail.gmail.com>

Is compiz going to be updated to 0.8.x or two days to final
development freeze is too late ?

-- 
NV



From drago01 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 12 09:18:37 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:18:37 +0200
Subject: compiz update ?
In-Reply-To: <a2e85ed0904120216t1ac57e61k328f412f612beec1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2e85ed0904120216t1ac57e61k328f412f612beec1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904120218o1e4a1115p4e5ea98941ed4969@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Nikolay Vladimirov
<nikolay at vladimiroff.com> wrote:
> Is compiz going to be updated to 0.8.x or two days to final
> development freeze is too late ?

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492661



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 12 09:57:09 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:57:09 +0200
Subject: Anjuta & gnome-build file conflicts: need some help
References: <3170f42f0904111031v3f052aa1s30aca48b2ab5367d@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E0D9BB.1060801@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <grsdtl$qcr$1@ger.gmane.org>

Mamoru Tasaka wrote:

> Debarshi Ray wrote, at 04/12/2009 02:31 AM +9:00:
>> Obsoletes:      gnome-build <= 2.24.1-1
>> Provides:       perl(GBF::Make) = %{version}-%{release}
> 
> First of all, this does not "Obsoletes" 2.24.1-1.fc10 because
> 2.24.1-1 < 2.24.1-1".fc10" .

Yeah, the correct comparison is < 2.24.1-2, not <= 2.24.1-1.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 12 10:09:20 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 12:09:20 +0200
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
	livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net> <49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <grsekg$s6o$1@ger.gmane.org>

psmith wrote:
> like i said it was brought up that liveusb-creator and
> livecd-iso-to-disk were available, but both of these are additional
> packages and incur resource usage where as releasing an iso that is both
> usb and cdr compatible saves resources

Actually, making a hybrid ISO wastes the resource which is most valuable:
disk space on the live CD! We're always very much at the limit of the live
CD size, we have no room for extra USB stuff.

> and makes the step of writing to usb a simple one, granted liveusb-creator
> and livecd-iso-to-disk are easy enough to use but they are an additional
> download where as dd is installed by default.

Not on Window$, which is what the people who want to try out Fedora are most
likely to use. A GUI tool is actually more useful for them than a
command-line port of dd.

For those people already using Fedora: liveusb-creator is included by
default on the KDE spin. As it uses PyQt4, there are some space problems
with including it on the GNOME spin (see above - live CDs are already very
full).

> i can see no reason not to use this dual format for live releases, and if
> you think that because tools are available to use the existing method is a
> valid reason not to move forward with other more useful methods then i
> don't know what to say :-/

liveusb-creator is the more useful method, as it allows you to control your
overlay size and share the USB stick with other stuff.

        Kevin Kofler



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr 12 11:04:21 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:04:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090412 changes
Message-ID: <20090412110422.1F6011B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Sun Apr 12 06:15:10 UTC 2009

New package python-stomper
        A python client implementation of the STOMP protocol
New package subdownloader
        Program for download/upload subtitles for videofiles and DVDs
New package webkitgtk
        GTK+ Web content engine library
Updated Packages:

anjuta-2.26.0.1-2.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> - 1:2.26.0.1-2
- Replaced 'Obsoletes: gnome-build <= 2.24.1-1' with
  'Obsoletes: gnome-build <= 2.24.1-1.fc10'. (Red Hat Bugzilla #485452).
- Explicitly passed '--enable-scrollkeeper' to configure.


anki-0.9.9.7.4-1.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Christian Krause <chkr at fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.9.7.4-1
- Update to new upstream version 0.9.9.7.4 (BZ 494598)
- Require python-matplotlib instead of numpy (BZ 495232)


avant-window-navigator-0.3.2-6.fc11
-----------------------------------

beanstalkd-1.3-1.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Jeremy Hinegardner <jeremy at hinegardner dot org> - 1.3-1
- update to upstream 1.3


bluez-4.35-1.fc11
-----------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 4.35-1
- Update to 4.35


bouml-4.12.1-1.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Apr 08 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> - 4.12.1-1
- Version bump to 4.12.1.
  * Previous releases can not read a project saved with this version, but
    projects made by previous releases can be read.
  * Python Generator:
    + When a class referenced another one placed in the same python package,
      the python code generator wrongly produced <artifact name>.<class name>
      rather than <package name>.<artifact name>.<class name>. Fixed.
  * XMI2 Generator:
    + When an association is defined between a class and an actor, an
      unexpected and inconsistent attribute was generated. Fixed. 
  * When a class associated with a relation (for instance in case of a class
    relation) is deleted, the plug-out API operation
    UmlRelation::association() wrongly returned the deleted class. Fixed.
  * In a diagram when two elements were linked by a line (whatever it
    represented) and one of the elements contained the other one, the line was
    not drawn. This was mainly a problem in case of high-level transition from
    a composite state with a target inside the composite state. Fixed.
  * Changing the geometry of a junction between two instances in a
    communication diagram, without supporting a message, using the menu,
    produced a crash. Fixed.
  * Duplicating an activity might produce a crash. Fixed.
  * When any colour is assigned to an activity partition in horizontal display
    mode, closing and re-opening the diagram produced an error message and a
    part of the diagram was lost. Fixed.
  * In a state diagram it was possible to resize choices by selecting them
    with other elements and doing a resize. Ditto for decision and merge in an
    activity diagram. Fixed.
  * The virtual desktop set through the environment dialog was not taken into
    account. Fixed.
  * Added new US diagram formats: letter, legal, tabloid, letter landscape,
    legal landscape and ledger.
  * It is now possible to add marked elements in class, use case, component
    and deployment diagrams though the diagram menu entry add marked elements.
  * It is now possible to add related elements in diagram for a class, use
    case, package, component, artifact and deployment node. A related element
    is an element having a relation with the current element which can be
    shown in the current diagram and part of the browser.
  * http://bouml.free.fr/historic.html
- glibc-2.10 fixes accepted by upstream.


bzr-1.14-0.2.rc1.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Henrik Nordstrom <henrik at henriknordstrom.net> - 1.14-0.2.rc1
- Correct build dependencies

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Henrik Nordstrom <henrik at henriknordstrom.net> - 1.14-0.1.rc1
- Update to 1.14rc1


bzrtools-1.14.0-1.fc11
----------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Henrik Nordstrom <henrik at henriknordstrom.net> - 1.14.0-1
- Update to 1.14.0


childsplay-1.1-5.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Johan Cwiklinski <johan AT x-tnd DOT be>  1.1-5
- Added missing BR


e2fsprogs-1.41.4-6.fc11
-----------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com> 1.41.4-6
- ignore differing NEEDS_RECOVERY flag on fsck post-resize (#471925)


gcompris-8.4.12-1.fc11
----------------------
* Sun Mar 29 2009 Johan Cwiklinski <johan AT x-tnd DOT be> 8.4.12-1
- New upstream bugfix release 8.4.12

* Thu Mar 12 2009 Johan Cwiklinski <johan AT x-tnd DOT be> 8.4.11-1
- New upstream bugfix release 8.4.11


gedit-plugins-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Dodji Seketeli <dodji at redhat.org> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to upstream release 2..26.1
- Fixes GNOME bugzilla bug #576766 - Crash when Configuring "Draw Spaces"
- Make sure to remove all *.la files
- Remove BuildRequire libgnomeui-devel as needless now

* Fri Apr 10 2009 Dodji Seketeli <dodji at redhat.org> - 2.26.0-1
- Update to upstream release (2.26.1)
- Add plugin files from %{_datadir}
- Don't check for vte anymore, the package checks it pkg-config
- Add 'bookmarks' to the plugin set


gipfel-0.3.1-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Fabian Affolter <fabian at bernewireless.net> - 0.3.1-1
- Updated to new upstream version 0.3.1

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Fabian Affolter <fabian at bernewireless.net> - 0.3.0-1
- Updated to new upstream version 0.3.0
- Added exiv2-devel as a BR


glade3-3.6.1-1.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> - 3.6.1-1
- Version bump to 3.6.1.
  * Fixed crash during internal widget selection.
  * Fixed Libglade regression. Libglade needs specific ordering of properties,
    ATK props, signals and accelerators.
  * Disable loading and displaying of 'data' property on GtkTreeStore. Only
    GtkListStore understands the 'data' construct.
  * Properly initialize a GValue on the stack. (GNOME Bugzilla #577822)
  * Translation updates: ar and cs.
  * http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/glade3/3.6/glade3-3.6.1.news
- Added 'Requires: devhelp' to glade3-libgladeui.
- Removed 'Requires: gtk2-devel >= 2.14.0 libxml2-devel pkgconfig' from
  glade3-libgladeui-devel.


glusterfs-2.0.0-0.1.rc7.fc11
----------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 2.0.0-0.1.rc7
- Update to 2.0.0rc7.
- Rename "libs" to "common" and move the binary, man page and log dir there.


gtk2-2.16.1-2.fc11
------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Karsten Hopp <karsten at redhat.com> 2.16.1-2
- autoconf uses ibm-linux not redhat-linux (s390x), 
  fix host similar to ppc

* Sat Apr 11 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.16.1-1
- Update to 2.16.1


gvfs-1.2.1-5.fc11
-----------------

haproxy-1.3.17-2.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Jeremy Hinegardner <jeremy at hinegardner dot org> 1.3.17-2
-  Update to 1.3.17


kazehakase-0.5.6-8.svn3769_trunk.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.5.6-8.svn3769_trunk
- Fix crash when kazehakase-webkit only is installed (bug 444569)


kernel-2.6.29.1-68.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 David Woodhouse <David.Woodhouse at intel.com>
- Fix suspend/resume with Intel IOMMU, handle devices behind PCI-PCI
  bridges, cope with BIOS claiming IOMMU is at address zero.

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com>
- radeon: fix some kms bugs, dac detect + screen resize

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dave Jones <davej at redhat.com>
- Bring back the /dev/crash driver. (#492803)

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com>
- drm-intel-gen3-fb-hack.patch: Allow up to 4k framebuffers on 9[14]5.  3D
  will be broken if you do that, but at least dualhead will be less broken.

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> 2.6.29.1-59
- add patch to fix regression on sparc

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- Only print ext4 allocator fallback warning once.

* Wed Apr 08 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com>
- drm-nouveau.patch: nv50 kms fixes (PROM access, i2c, clean some warnings)

* Wed Apr 08 2009 Dave Jones <davej at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-58
- disable MMIOTRACE in non-debug builds (#494584)

* Wed Apr 08 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com>
- Drop the PAT patch, sufficiently upstreamed now.


koules-1.4-6.fc11
-----------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> 1.4-6
- Wrap the OSS-based sound server in padsp


libvoikko-2.1-0.3.rc2.fc11
--------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi> - 2.1-0.3.rc2
- Patch to current SVN HEAD, includes a fix for a memory leak in the grammar
  checker


mdbtools-0.6-0.6.cvs20051109.fc11.1
-----------------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Karsten Hopp <karsten at redhat.com> 0.6-0.6.cvs20051109.1
- bump and rebuild for current unixODBC libs


midori-0.1.5-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Peter Gordon <peter at thecodergeek.com> - 0.1.5-2
- Update to new upstream release (0.1.5): download support (with WebKitGTK
  1.1.3+), a new "Colorful Tabs" extension, and saving of extension settings.
- Temporarily switch to building using the in-tarball waf (FTBFS otherwise).
- Temporarily disable libunique (single-instance) support, as it's broken
  with libunique 1.0.4 (which is the current in rawhide).


milter-greylist-4.2.2-0.fc11
----------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Enrico Scholz <enrico.scholz at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de> - 4.2.2-0.
- updated to 4.2.2
- removed patches which where applied upstream


mpop-1.0.17-1.fc11
------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Fabian Affolter <fabian at bernewireless.net> - 1.0.17-1
- Updated to new upstream version 1.0.17


nafees-web-naskh-fonts-1.2-2.fc11
---------------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Mathieu Bridon <bochecha at fedoraproject.org> - 1.2-1
- update to 1.2 release

* Sat Apr 11 2009 Mathieu Bridon <bochecha at fedoraproject.org> - 1.2-2
- added comment explaining how the source is obtained (as it is modified from upstream)
- temporary fix for RHBZ#490830 while not fixed upstream


nginx-0.6.36-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Jeremy Hinegardner <jeremy at hinegardner dot org> 0.6.36-1
-  update to 0.6.36


oidentd-2.0.8-7.fc11
--------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 2.0.8-7
- Update init script (#247006).
- Mark the ghosted config files as noreplace just in case.


pdf-renderer-0-0.5.20090405cvs.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget [DOT] fedora [AT] gmail [DOT] com> 0-0.5.20090405cvs
- New cvs checkout
- Raise minimum java requirement


perl-Catalyst-Manual-5.7020-2.fc11
----------------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 5.7020-2
- reclaim Catalyst::Manual


perl-Catalyst-Runtime-5.71001-2.fc11
------------------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Chris Weyl <cweyl at alumni.drew.edu> 5.71001-2
- return Catalyst::Manual perl-Catalyst-Manual


perl-DateTime-Format-Natural-0.76-1.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Iain Arnell <iarnell at gmail.com> 0.76-1
- update to latest upstream release


phonon-4.3.1-3.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.3.1-3
- optimize scriptlets
- Provides/Requires: phonon-backend%{_isa} ...


policycoreutils-2.0.62-9.fc11
-----------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 2.0.62-9
- Handle case where subs file does not exist


ruby-1.8.6.287-8.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 1.8.6.287-8
- Merge Review fix (#226381)


scidavis-0.2.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Eric Tanguy <eric.tanguy at univ-nantes.fr> - 0.2.1-1
- Update to 0.2.1

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.1.4-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


selinux-policy-3.6.12-3.fc11
----------------------------
* Thu Apr 09 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-3
- Separate out the ucnonfined user from the unconfined.pp package


smartmontools-5.38-11.fc11
--------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> - 1:5.38-11
- remove ExclusiveArch use -fPIE on sparc64  
- tested builds on sparcv9 sparc64 and s390x


solfege-3.14.1-3.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 3.14.1-2
- Don't depend on lilypond


supybot-0.83.3-10.fc11
----------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Ricky Zhou <ricky at fedoraproject.org> - 0.83.3-10
- Backporting Python 2.6 fixes from Supybot git.


thttpd-2.25b-21.fc11
--------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 2.25b-21
- Include patch to rename conflicting "getline" function (stdio.h).
- Fix so that makeweb gets compiled in "build" section with the right WEBDIR.

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 2.25b-20
- Fix thttpd-2.25b-CVE-2005-3124.patch (#483733).
- Remove unwanted .orig files from patches (#484205).
- Don't ship useless man pages (#484205).
- Reorganize all of the webroot files under /var/www/thttpd, remove cgi-bin
  by default, remove useless log directory.
- Have makeweb be conditional and disabled by default.
- Fix thttpd mode from 555 to 755.
- Add new init block to the init script (commands and exit status need work).
- Re-enable indexes by default, it's possible to turn them off with dir modes.
- Don't even compile the CGI programs instead of just excluding them.
- No longer build htpasswd as static.


wxPython-2.8.9.2-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Dan Hor??k <dan[at]danny.cz> - 2.8.9.2-1
- update to 2.8.9.2
- create noarch docs subpackage

* Fri Apr 10 2009 Dan Hor??k <dan[at]danny.cz> - 2.8.9.2-2
- add patch to fix compile failure for contrib/gizmos/_treelist.i


xorg-x11-drv-radeonhd-1.2.5-2.8.20090411git.fc11
------------------------------------------------
* Sat Apr 11 2009 Hans Ulrich Niedermann <hun at n-dimensional.de> - 1.2.5-2.8.20090411git
- Updated README.fedora with new feature set (2D+XVideo on R[67]xx)
- This snapshot is the 1.2.5 release.
- New snapshot (upstream commit cb54f48b212d5ae54e13bbdf24575b6163798c0d):
  - cb54f48b: Bump to 1.2.5. Updated README.
  - 9d2a5088: Fix resume from suspend for r6xx/r7xx
  - 1137e096: RHDDRIGetIntGARTLocation is called too often to be logged. Nuked RHDFUNC there.
  - 76d6973a: man: R6xx and R7xx 2D possible now.
  - 00656976: LUT: reduce number of writes to DC_LUT_RW_INDEX
  - 6d7f2486: Use () in macro arguments of new RHDRegMask.
  - d6c37277: CS: Replace register read/write macros with ones from compiler.h
  - c9d1af91: Use X MMIO macros instead of own register read/write functions
  - f65014d8: Add RV790 (HD 4890) Support
  - 79efc609: AtomBIOS: Fixed wrong logic: switch -> if.
  - ecd61667: rhd_dump: fix error introduced by LUT dump addition
  - 7e4948a3: R6xx/R7xx EXA: rework composite pixel shader
  - 461701c6: R6xx/R7xx: clean up bool const code
  - cc6e6fe4: add new chip ids
  - f0f640f1: R6xx/R7xx EXA: fix maxPitchBytes
  - 37da5e5a: Add new pci ids
  - 4fa65062: Really disable UTS/DFS on r6xx/r7xx AGP
  - b075ec9c: R6xx/R7xx AGP: disable gart data transfers
  - d9c8f9ce: r600: reload shaders into VRAM on resume
  - 12611c8f: R6xx/R7xx shader: Fix OFFSET_[XYZ] macro for TEX_DWORD2 to accept floats
  - 70490504: RS600: fix page table size for rs600 as well
  - 10ebf657: r600: fix sizing of PCI GART table for r600
  - f27383df: R6xx/R7xx: Fix OFFSET_[XYZ] macros for negative values.
  - 827fb141: randr: Set use_screen_monitor correctly using helper function.
  - 76490dd8: Enable DRI by default on R5xx chips.


zoneminder-1.24.1-3.fc11
------------------------

Summary:
Added Packages: 3
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 45






Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Setup) = 0:0.4.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Gui) = 0:0.4.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono-addins
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins) = 0:0.4.0.0
	banshee-devel-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires pkgconfig(mono-addins)
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins) = 0:0.4.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Gui) = 0:0.4.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Setup) = 0:0.4.0.0
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins) = 0:0.4.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono-addins
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Setup) = 0:0.4.0.0



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice





From opensource at till.name  Sun Apr 12 11:46:36 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 13:46:36 +0200
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
 livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <grsekg$s6o$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org> <grsekg$s6o$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904121346.46817.opensource@till.name>

On So April 12 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> psmith wrote:
> > like i said it was brought up that liveusb-creator and
> > livecd-iso-to-disk were available, but both of these are additional
> > packages and incur resource usage where as releasing an iso that is both
> > usb and cdr compatible saves resources
>
> Actually, making a hybrid ISO wastes the resource which is most valuable:
> disk space on the live CD! We're always very much at the limit of the live
> CD size, we have no room for extra USB stuff.

Is this really the case? By accident I found that the isolinux package 
contains a isohybrid shell script which modifies existing iso images to be 
hybrid. It only writes to the MBR, which is filed with nullbytes in the F11 
Beta iso image and pads the image to a fake cylinder boundary. This makes the 
image only around 600KB larger, but I guess even these 600KB can still be used 
by the filesystem. The only problem I currently see, is that it seems to 
conflict with the implanted md5 checksum.

> liveusb-creator is the more useful method, as it allows you to control your
> overlay size and share the USB stick with other stuff.

The problem with live-iso-to-disk is, that it is not functional on F10 to 
create F11 live USB media, because it requires a F11 syslinux package. To 
create testing live USB media, it would be a lot better if it was possible 
just to use the latest Fedora Stable release to create bootable test media, 
which should be always possible to use dd or cat with the hybrid iso.

Regards,
Till
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From mike at miketc.net  Sun Apr 12 14:04:39 2009
From: mike at miketc.net (Mike Chambers)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 09:04:39 -0500
Subject: gftp bookmarks don't have Fedora site(s) listed
Message-ID: <1239545079.8321.8.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>

This was sort of fixed before, but it doesn't include them no longer it
seems.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=463006

-- 
Mike Chambers
Madisonville, KY

Fedora Project - Bugzapper, Tester, User, etc..
miketc302 at fedoraproject.org



From psmith at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr 12 16:10:51 2009
From: psmith at fedoraproject.org (psmith)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:10:51 +0100
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
 livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <49E11398.8050603@comcast.net>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>	<49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net>
	<49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org> <49E11398.8050603@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49E2128B.2040809@fedoraproject.org>

David wrote:
> On 4/11/2009 4:20 PM, psmith wrote:
>   
>> David wrote:
>>     
>>> On 4/11/2009 1:50 PM, psmith wrote:
>>>       
>
>   
>>>> we were talking on this list a few weeks back about making live spins
>>>> available in a usb format instead of just an iso and it was said that it
>>>> would incur more work and that because of the script and program
>>>> mentioned in the title there was no need, well it turns out that
>>>> mandriva have made iso's that are both usb and cdr compatible, all
>>>> that's needed to put the iso on usb is a dd command,
>>>>         
>
>
>
>   
>>>> dd if=foo.iso of=/dev/usb-diskname bs=8M
>>>>         
>
>
>
>   
>>>> for more info check here >>
>>>> http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2009.1_RC_2#Hybrid_ISOs
>>>>         
>
>
>
>   
>>>> is this something that fedora would consider?
>>>>         
>
>
>
>   
>>>> phil
>>>>         
>
>
>
>   
>>>> i don't know if that this is new info or not, or how they do it but i
>>>> thought it interesting and i think all distros should head this way for
>>>> live releases.
>>>>         
>
>
>
>   
>>>> phil
>>>>         
>
>
>
>   
>>> This one works well.
>>>       
>
>   
>>> liveusb-creator
>>>       
>
>   
>>> https://fedorahosted.org/liveusb-creator/
>>>       
>
>   
>>> and it's already in Fedora 10 and up. You can make your own.  :-)
>>>       
>
>
>   
>> like i said it was brought up that liveusb-creator and
>> livecd-iso-to-disk were available, but both of these are additional
>> packages and incur resource usage where as releasing an iso that is both
>> usb and cdr compatible saves resources and makes the step of writing to
>> usb a simple one, granted liveusb-creator and livecd-iso-to-disk are
>> easy enough to use but they are an additional download where as dd is
>> installed by default. i can see no reason not to use this dual format
>> for live releases, and if you think that because tools are available to
>> use the existing method is a valid reason not to move forward with other
>> more useful methods then i don't know what to say :-/
>>     
>
>   
>> phil
>>     
>
> So what you are saying it that you want all of the mirrors to carry both a
> CD ISO and a USB ISO? One each for Gnome and KDE.
>
> Ping. Both are the same animal guy. The same ISO that you would burn to a CD
> is the same ISO that you would write to a USB stick. It all depends on what
> you use to install it where.
>
>   
how about actually reading what's written huh? the iso that mandriva 
prepares is usable as a cd iso and a usb iso only requiring dd to write 
it to usb, so how is this two iso's?

and the same goes here one iso two purposes, but with the mandriva 
version there is no need for installing secondary programs like 
livecd-tools or liveusb-creator to use it on a usb, just dd the image across

phil



From dgboles at comcast.net  Sun Apr 12 16:26:32 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 12:26:32 -0400
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
 livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <49E2128B.2040809@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>	<49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net>	<49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E11398.8050603@comcast.net> <49E2128B.2040809@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49E21638.9080309@comcast.net>

On 4/12/2009 12:10 PM, psmith wrote:
> David wrote:
>> On 4/11/2009 4:20 PM, psmith wrote:

>>> David wrote:

>>>> On 4/11/2009 1:50 PM, psmith wrote:



>>>>> we were talking on this list a few weeks back about making live spins
>>>>> available in a usb format instead of just an iso and it was said
>>>>> that it
>>>>> would incur more work and that because of the script and program
>>>>> mentioned in the title there was no need, well it turns out that
>>>>> mandriva have made iso's that are both usb and cdr compatible, all
>>>>> that's needed to put the iso on usb is a dd command,





>>>>> dd if=foo.iso of=/dev/usb-diskname bs=8M





>>>>> for more info check here >>
>>>>> http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2009.1_RC_2#Hybrid_ISOs





>>>>> is this something that fedora would consider?





>>>>> phil





>>>>> i don't know if that this is new info or not, or how they do it but i
>>>>> thought it interesting and i think all distros should head this way
>>>>> for
>>>>> live releases.





>>>>> phil





>>>> This one works well.



>>>> liveusb-creator



>>>> https://fedorahosted.org/liveusb-creator/



>>>> and it's already in Fedora 10 and up. You can make your own.  :-)




>>> like i said it was brought up that liveusb-creator and
>>> livecd-iso-to-disk were available, but both of these are additional
>>> packages and incur resource usage where as releasing an iso that is both
>>> usb and cdr compatible saves resources and makes the step of writing to
>>> usb a simple one, granted liveusb-creator and livecd-iso-to-disk are
>>> easy enough to use but they are an additional download where as dd is
>>> installed by default. i can see no reason not to use this dual format
>>> for live releases, and if you think that because tools are available to
>>> use the existing method is a valid reason not to move forward with other
>>> more useful methods then i don't know what to say :-/



>>> phil


>> So what you are saying it that you want all of the mirrors to carry
>> both a
>> CD ISO and a USB ISO? One each for Gnome and KDE.

>> Ping. Both are the same animal guy. The same ISO that you would burn
>> to a CD
>> is the same ISO that you would write to a USB stick. It all depends on
>> what
>> you use to install it where.


> how about actually reading what's written huh? the iso that mandriva
> prepares is usable as a cd iso and a usb iso only requiring dd to write
> it to usb, so how is this two iso's?

> and the same goes here one iso two purposes, but with the mandriva
> version there is no need for installing secondary programs like
> livecd-tools or liveusb-creator to use it on a usb, just dd the image
> across

So what did Mandriva leave off their Live-CD that Fedora does not? The
powers that be said that the packages to 'write to a USB stick' would not
fit in the CD ISO.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Windows user. They do not have the
CLI like a Linux user does. And, quite honestly, many Linux users don't, or
can't, use the CLI either.

To write to a USB stick and then use it extensively would be, IMO, foolish.
Since the memory ship it write limited the swap file and log files, Linux
logs just about everything, I would think would kill it very quickly.

Be prepared for the flying shoes here.  :-p  Someone, somewhere, will want
include what you suggested to be excludes.

Have a good day.
-- 


  David



From drago01 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 12 16:27:39 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 18:27:39 +0200
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using 
	livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <200904121346.46817.opensource@till.name>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org> <grsekg$s6o$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904121346.46817.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904120927n33220aedjcbe43a6ac28a1f2b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Till Maas <opensource at till.name> wrote:
> On So April 12 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> psmith wrote:
>> > like i said it was brought up that liveusb-creator and
>> > livecd-iso-to-disk were available, but both of these are additional
>> > packages and incur resource usage where as releasing an iso that is both
>> > usb and cdr compatible saves resources
>>
>> Actually, making a hybrid ISO wastes the resource which is most valuable:
>> disk space on the live CD! We're always very much at the limit of the live
>> CD size, we have no room for extra USB stuff.
>
> Is this really the case? By accident I found that the isolinux package
> contains a isohybrid shell script which modifies existing iso images to be
> hybrid.

So you can run it on the client side and use dd after that.



From bruno at wolff.to  Sun Apr 12 16:35:40 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:35:40 -0500
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for
	Fedora 11?
In-Reply-To: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090412163540.GA24110@wolff.to>

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 20:52:15 -0700,
  Otto Rey <otto_rey at yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
> 
> I know that maybe it's to late, but: any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (latest upstream release, DRI enabled) for Fedora 11?

xorg-x11-drv-radeonhd-1.2.5-2.8.20090411git.fc11 is the latest koji build,
so I think the answer is yes.



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Sun Apr 12 18:08:17 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:08:17 +0100
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for Fedora
	11?
In-Reply-To: <20090412163540.GA24110@wolff.to>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<20090412163540.GA24110@wolff.to>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904121108l7d192784pc34f6b9a20718819@mail.gmail.com>

>> I know that maybe it's to late, but: any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (latest upstream release, DRI enabled) for Fedora 11?
>
> xorg-x11-drv-radeonhd-1.2.5-2.8.20090411git.fc11 is the latest koji build,
> so I think the answer is yes.

It fact it hit today's rawhide :-)

Peter



From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net  Sun Apr 12 18:17:08 2009
From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:17:08 +0200
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
Message-ID: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>

Hi,

Though having been able to dedicate a lot less time than before to
Fedora during the past few years, I still maintain all of the packages
I own as well as I can. But some packages I have lost interest in, and
have become a burden to maintain. I'm sure others who are still using
them would do a better job than me at maintaining them, which is why I'd
like to orphan the following packages (open bugzilla reports listed for
reference) :

 * djvulibre : 443953, 444699
 * js: 341631
 * moin : lots
 * ucarp : 247082, 427495, 449266, 455394, 458767
 * portaudio : 478719

I'll proceed to releasing ownership in the pkgdb now. I'm particularly
ashamed of the shape I've left moin in... please forgive me. I really
hope someone will be able to give these the attention they deserve!

Matthias



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 12 19:20:31 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:20:31 +0200
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
	livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>	<49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net>	<49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E11398.8050603@comcast.net> <49E2128B.2040809@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E21638.9080309@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <grtetv$bmf$1@ger.gmane.org>

David wrote:
> I was thinking more along the lines of a Windows user. They do not have
> the CLI like a Linux user does. And, quite honestly, many Linux users
> don't, or can't, use the CLI either.

That's exactly why they should use the liveusb-creator which is a nice GUI.

        Kevin Kofler



From vpivaini at cs.helsinki.fi  Sun Apr 12 19:34:21 2009
From: vpivaini at cs.helsinki.fi (Ville-Pekka Vainio)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:34:21 +0300
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
Message-ID: <1239564861.618.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

su, 2009-04-12 kello 20:17 +0200, Matthias Saou kirjoitti:
>  * moin : lots
> I'll proceed to releasing ownership in the pkgdb now. I'm particularly
> ashamed of the shape I've left moin in... please forgive me.

I've done some moin hacking and translations, so I have at least some
experience of it. I am interested in taking it over, but I have no
experience in packaging Python apps or web apps.

I just had a chat with the moin developers on IRC and they wish Fedora
would have at least the latest point release of the 1.8 series in F11.
The development freeze is near, but maybe we could even get a freeze
break for a newer moin if there isn't enough time?

Is there anyone on the list who'd like to co-maintain moin with me,
preferably someone with experience in running python web apps?


-- 
Ville-Pekka Vainio



From otto_rey at yahoo.com.ar  Sun Apr 12 19:48:46 2009
From: otto_rey at yahoo.com.ar (Otto Rey)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 12:48:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for Fedora
	11?
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904121108l7d192784pc34f6b9a20718819@mail.gmail.com>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<20090412163540.GA24110@wolff.to>
	<5256d0b0904121108l7d192784pc34f6b9a20718819@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <288127.20561.qm@web52411.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


>>> I know that maybe it's to late, but: any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (latest upstream release, DRI enabled) for Fedora 11?
>>
>> xorg-x11-drv-radeonhd-1.2.5-2.8.20090411git.fc11 is the latest koji build,
>> so I think the answer is yes.

>It fact it hit today's rawhide :-)

Wow! Really good news! Thank you people :)


      Yahoo! Cocina
Recetas pr?cticas y comida saludable
http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/



From psmith at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr 12 19:53:12 2009
From: psmith at fedoraproject.org (psmith)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:53:12 +0100
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without
 using	livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <grtetv$bmf$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>	<49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net>	<49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org>	<49E11398.8050603@comcast.net>
	<49E2128B.2040809@fedoraproject.org>	<49E21638.9080309@comcast.net>
	<grtetv$bmf$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49E246A8.50908@fedoraproject.org>

Kevin Kofler wrote:
> David wrote:
>   
>> I was thinking more along the lines of a Windows user. They do not have
>> the CLI like a Linux user does. And, quite honestly, many Linux users
>> don't, or can't, use the CLI either.
>>     
>
> That's exactly why they should use the liveusb-creator which is a nice GUI.
>
>         Kevin Kofler
>
>   

which will still work perfectly fine with the dual purpose iso, it's 
just that those of us who do know how to use a cli and do use linux can 
miss out the extra steps needed. this extra functionality of the dual 
purpose iso only adds to it's usability and takes nothing away from what 
exists in the iso's already. i really can't see the reason for the 
resistance?

as for most who are trying a live fedora release being windows users, 
i'd love to know where that stat came from?

phil



From drago01 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 12 21:13:59 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:13:59 +0200
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using 
	livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <49E246A8.50908@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org> <49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net>
	<49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org> <49E11398.8050603@comcast.net>
	<49E2128B.2040809@fedoraproject.org> <49E21638.9080309@comcast.net>
	<grtetv$bmf$1@ger.gmane.org> <49E246A8.50908@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904121413mc521e47v84b941fed8630ec7@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 9:53 PM, psmith <psmith at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>
>> David wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I was thinking more along the lines of a Windows user. They do not have
>>> the CLI like a Linux user does. And, quite honestly, many Linux users
>>> don't, or can't, use the CLI either.
>>>
>>
>> That's exactly why they should use the liveusb-creator which is a nice
>> GUI.
>>
>> ? ? ? ?Kevin Kofler
>>
>>
>
> which will still work perfectly fine with the dual purpose iso, it's just
> that those of us who do know how to use a cli and do use linux can miss out
> the extra steps needed. this extra functionality of the dual purpose iso
> only adds to it's usability and takes nothing away from what exists in the
> iso's already. i really can't see the reason for the resistance?
>
> as for most who are trying a live fedora release being windows users, i'd
> love to know where that stat came from?

There are no stats he just assumed that.
Windows users are more likely to test a livecd than to install on a
spare partition / vm.



From psmith at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr 12 21:48:37 2009
From: psmith at fedoraproject.org (psmith)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:48:37 +0100
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
 livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <d551e0e20904111408u23dad97enf3925ae36bb3459@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net>	<49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org>
	<d551e0e20904111408u23dad97enf3925ae36bb3459@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E261B5.2090504@fedoraproject.org>

Camilo Mesias wrote:
> Phil,
>
>   
>>  i can see no
>> reason not to use this dual format for live releases, and if you think that
>> because tools are available to use the existing method is a valid reason not
>> to move forward with other more useful methods then i don't know what to say
>> :-/
>>     
>
> The iso is less useful than the existing method. The existing tools
> can perform all sorts of checks, whereas dd is open to  mis-use. The
> existing tools are non-destructive so I can have a load of general
> purpose info (eg. Windows / Linux diagnostic tools and important data
> files (ssh or WPA keys). The USB disk remains cross-platform readable.
> I could do all this with the iso but would have to put multiple
> partitions on the device, and it starts to get more complex...
>
> I think the only way the existing tools could be improved is perhaps a
> GUI version and the ability to have several images on one disk and a
> boot menu to select between them.
>
> -Cam
>
>   
and using the dual mode iso won't stop you from using your existing 
methods, just allow others who want a quicker simpler route to usb to 
have their way too. as i said before it doesn't remove any of the 
existing functionality it only adds functionality for a different user 
base, how is that so wrong?

phil



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Mon Apr 13 00:12:05 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:12:05 +0200
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
Message-ID: <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>

Looks like some of these already found new owners:

Matthias Saou wrote:
>  * djvulibre : 443953, 444699

Now owned by Rakesh Pandit (rakesh).

>  * moin : lots

See Ville-Pekka Vainio's reply (he's interested, but is looking for
comaintainers).

>  * portaudio : 478719

Now owned by Orcan Ogetbil (oget).

Folks, if you take ownership of an orphaned package, can you please reply to
the mail discussing the orphaning so people know? It's annoying to have to
check pkgdb to see what packages have been taken over already.

These ones are still up for grabs:
>  * js: 341631
>  * ucarp : 247082, 427495, 449266, 455394, 458767

        Kevin Kofler



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 00:17:08 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:17:08 -0400
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Looks like some of these already found new owners:
>
> Matthias Saou wrote:
>> ?* djvulibre : 443953, 444699
>
> Now owned by Rakesh Pandit (rakesh).
>
>> ?* moin : lots
>
> See Ville-Pekka Vainio's reply (he's interested, but is looking for
> comaintainers).
>
>> ?* portaudio : 478719
>
> Now owned by Orcan Ogetbil (oget).
>
> Folks, if you take ownership of an orphaned package, can you please reply to
> the mail discussing the orphaning so people know? It's annoying to have to
> check pkgdb to see what packages have been taken over already.
>
> These ones are still up for grabs:
>> ?* js: 341631
>> ?* ucarp : 247082, 427495, 449266, 455394, 458767
>

Sorry for annoying people, it takes me about the same time to check
the email vs the pkgdb page, so I didn't bother.

Orcan



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 00:53:09 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:53:09 -0400
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Looks like some of these already found new owners:
>>
>> Matthias Saou wrote:
>>> ?* djvulibre : 443953, 444699
>>
>> Now owned by Rakesh Pandit (rakesh).
>>
>>> ?* moin : lots
>>
>> See Ville-Pekka Vainio's reply (he's interested, but is looking for
>> comaintainers).
>>
>>> ?* portaudio : 478719
>>
>> Now owned by Orcan Ogetbil (oget).
>>
>> Folks, if you take ownership of an orphaned package, can you please reply to
>> the mail discussing the orphaning so people know? It's annoying to have to
>> check pkgdb to see what packages have been taken over already.
>>
>> These ones are still up for grabs:
>>> ?* js: 341631
>>> ?* ucarp : 247082, 427495, 449266, 455394, 458767
>>
>
> Sorry for annoying people, it takes me about the same time to check
> the email vs the pkgdb page, so I didn't bother.
>
> Orcan
>

I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.

Anyone who is interested can take it over.

Orcan

PS: Speaking just for myself, I won't be among those people who'll get
annoyed if someone takes over an orphaned package and does not report
this on the mailing list. For everyone's information.



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 00:49:05 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:49:05 -0400
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <1239564861.618.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
	<1239564861.618.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239583745.26129.43.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 22:34 +0300, Ville-Pekka Vainio wrote:
> Is there anyone on the list who'd like to co-maintain moin with me,
> preferably someone with experience in running python web apps?

I can help co-maintain, emphasis on the "co". And the "help". And the
"can".

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From thuforuk at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Apr 13 01:37:53 2009
From: thuforuk at yahoo.co.uk (Dariusz J. Garbowski)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:37:53 -0600
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>
Message-ID: <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>

On 04/08/2009 01:12 AM, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
> - we never know how many people agree or disgree but don't reply

I didn't want to reply but... what the heck -- I care and would prefer 
to have Ctrl+Alt+BkSp back.

-- 
thufor




		
___________________________________________________________ 
The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html



From airlied at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 01:38:31 2009
From: airlied at redhat.com (Dave Airlie)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:38:31 +1000
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for
 Fedora 11?
In-Reply-To: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost>

On Sat, 2009-04-11 at 20:52 -0700, Otto Rey wrote:
> I know that maybe it's to late, but: any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (latest upstream release, DRI enabled) for Fedora 11?
> 

I'd prefer people didn't run radeonhd if at all possible, unless you
need HDMI audio there is no reason to run it, and you are diluting the
testing base for Fedora by not running the shipping radeon driver.

Dave.




From arequipeno at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 02:22:46 2009
From: arequipeno at gmail.com (Ian Pilcher)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:22:46 -0500
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for Fedora
 11?
In-Reply-To: <1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <gru7ln$o4$1@ger.gmane.org>

Dave Airlie wrote:
> I'd prefer people didn't run radeonhd if at all possible, unless you
> need HDMI audio there is no reason to run it, and you are diluting the
> testing base for Fedora by not running the shipping radeon driver.

My displays flicker occasionally when I use the radeon driver.  With
radeonhd  (Option "AtomBIOS" "pll=on") they're rock solid.  Does that
count as a reason?

-- 
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher                                         arequipeno at gmail.com
========================================================================



From katzj at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 02:39:07 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:39:07 -0400
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
	livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <d551e0e20904111408u23dad97enf3925ae36bb3459@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E0EACA.7050401@comcast.net> <49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org>
	<d551e0e20904111408u23dad97enf3925ae36bb3459@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090413023907.GA8437@redhat.com>

On Saturday, April 11 2009, Camilo Mesias said:
> I think the only way the existing tools could be improved is perhaps a
> GUI version and the ability to have several images on one disk and a
> boot menu to select between them.

liveusb-creator is the GUI version you're looking for and will hopefully
be replacing the shell script at some point.  Help to get the CLI of
liveusb-creator would be greatly appreciated by Luke I think.

As far as several images on one disk, there's some very very very basic
support in the shell script now.  Usage information is left as an
exercise for the reader for now as it's still a bit rougher than I'd
like

Jeremy



From katzj at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 02:44:36 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:44:36 -0400
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
	livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <200904121346.46817.opensource@till.name>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E0FB96.709@fedoraproject.org> <grsekg$s6o$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904121346.46817.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <20090413024436.GB8437@redhat.com>

On Sunday, April 12 2009, Till Maas said:
> On So April 12 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > psmith wrote:
> > > like i said it was brought up that liveusb-creator and
> > > livecd-iso-to-disk were available, but both of these are additional
> > > packages and incur resource usage where as releasing an iso that is both
> > > usb and cdr compatible saves resources
> >
> > Actually, making a hybrid ISO wastes the resource which is most valuable:
> > disk space on the live CD! We're always very much at the limit of the live
> > CD size, we have no room for extra USB stuff.
> 
> Is this really the case? By accident I found that the isolinux package 
> contains a isohybrid shell script which modifies existing iso images to be 
> hybrid. It only writes to the MBR, which is filed with nullbytes in the F11 
> Beta iso image and pads the image to a fake cylinder boundary. This makes the 
> image only around 600KB larger, but I guess even these 600KB can still be used 
> by the filesystem. The only problem I currently see, is that it seems to 
> conflict with the implanted md5 checksum.

It's on my list to look at, but its existence was a little late for F11.
The conflict with the implanted md5 makes me a little sad inside, but
maybe we can come up with a good way to do both.  The other thing it
seems somewhat likely to conflict with is dual-mode MBR/EFI boot CDs
which we also want to support.
 
> > liveusb-creator is the more useful method, as it allows you to control your
> > overlay size and share the USB stick with other stuff.
> 
> The problem with live-iso-to-disk is, that it is not functional on F10 to 
> create F11 live USB media, because it requires a F11 syslinux package. To 
> create testing live USB media, it would be a lot better if it was possible 
> just to use the latest Fedora Stable release to create bootable test media, 
> which should be always possible to use dd or cat with the hybrid iso.

There's a hacked livecd-iso-to-disk.sh in git and on my fedorapeople
page[1] that feedback on would be helpful.  Assuming it works, then
we'll probably push the hack back to older releases.  I was hoping to
find something better, but so far, no dice :/

Jeremy

[1] http://katzj.fedorapeople.org/livecd-iso-to-disk.sh



From katzj at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 02:46:31 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:46:31 -0400
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for
	Fedora 11?
In-Reply-To: <gru7ln$o4$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost> <gru7ln$o4$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090413024630.GC8437@redhat.com>

On Sunday, April 12 2009, Ian Pilcher said:
> Dave Airlie wrote:
> > I'd prefer people didn't run radeonhd if at all possible, unless you
> > need HDMI audio there is no reason to run it, and you are diluting the
> > testing base for Fedora by not running the shipping radeon driver.
> 
> My displays flicker occasionally when I use the radeon driver.  With
> radeonhd  (Option "AtomBIOS" "pll=on") they're rock solid.  Does that
> count as a reason?

It may count as a reason, but have you filed a bug against the radeon
driver with the info so that it can be fixed there? :-)

Jeremy



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 03:18:27 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:18:27 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>
	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>

On 04/12/2009 09:37 PM, Dariusz J. Garbowski wrote:
> On 04/08/2009 01:12 AM, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
>> - we never know how many people agree or disgree but don't reply
> 
> I didn't want to reply but... what the heck -- I care and would prefer
> to have Ctrl+Alt+BkSp back.

http://who-t.blogspot.com/2009/04/zapping-server.html

In Fedora 11, you'll be able to turn it on just like any other keyboard
hotkey combination.

~spot



From wtogami at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 03:56:54 2009
From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:56:54 -0400
Subject: Status of Presto?
Message-ID: <49E2B806.9030505@redhat.com>

Just wondering, what is the status of presto becoming enabled by default 
for Fedora 11?

Warren



From nathanael at gnat.ca  Mon Apr 13 04:06:00 2009
From: nathanael at gnat.ca (Nathanael Noblet)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:06:00 -0600
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for Fedora
	11?
In-Reply-To: <1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <8DA4E1B6-B00F-4558-85CC-5B881700DE30@gnat.ca>


On Apr 12, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Dave Airlie wrote:

> On Sat, 2009-04-11 at 20:52 -0700, Otto Rey wrote:
>> I know that maybe it's to late, but: any plans to upgrade radeonhd  
>> to 1.2.5 (latest upstream release, DRI enabled) for Fedora 11?
>>
>
> I'd prefer people didn't run radeonhd if at all possible, unless you
> need HDMI audio there is no reason to run it, and you are diluting the
> testing base for Fedora by not running the shipping radeon driver.
>

Really? Why? I thought the radeonhd was to replace radeon eventually?  
Built off the released specs from AMD/ATI, whereas the radeon driver  
was a reverse engineered driver without docs? Am I on crack? After  
seeing this and thinking I was using radeonhd I looked at my x log  
messages which show RADEON(x), so I guess I'm using that now anyway,  
but a bit confused...



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 04:06:36 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 09:36:36 +0530
Subject: File conflicts: nss-softokn-freebl and nss
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904122106v7627695fo42dd3c8b5f2f16ff@mail.gmail.com>

While yum installing gcc-c++ over a Fedora 11 Beta x86_64
installation, I got this:

Transaction Check Error:
  file /lib64/libfreebl3.so from install of
nss-softokn-freebl-3.12.2.99.3-7.fc11.x86_64 conflicts with file from
package nss-3.12.2.0-4.fc11.x86_64

Happy hacking,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From h.reindl at thelounge.net  Mon Apr 13 04:24:04 2009
From: h.reindl at thelounge.net (Reindl Harald)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 06:24:04 +0200
Subject: VMI-Support for x86_64 in future?
Message-ID: <49E2BE64.8000805@thelounge.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Does anyone know if its possible to use VMI for x86_64-Fedora-Guests
I do not find any information about this
We use only Fedora x86_64 on our ESXi and this would be pretty cool
i386-guest runs well on a VMware Server 2.0.1 with Fedora x86_64 as host

[root at fedora-i386:~]$ dmesg | grep -i vmi
VMI: Found VMware, Inc. Hypervisor OPROM, API version 3.0, ROM version 1.0
vmi: registering clock event vmi-timer. mult=10504403 shift=22
vmi: registering clock event vmi-timer. mult=10504403 shift=22
Booting paravirtualized kernel on vmi
vmi: registering clock source khz=2504445


Reindl Harald
the lounge interactive design GmbH
A-1060 Vienna | Hofm?hlgasse 17
software-development / cms-solutions

phone:    +43 (1) 595 3999 33
cellular: +43 (676) 40 221 40
icq:      154546673

mailto:h.reindl at thelounge.net
http://www.thelounge.net/
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAknivmMACgkQhmBjz394AnljtACdGmP90pNYVJjucLcZlronUx67
m6oAoJXilZBP/Y0FB/YvSQYcFr1zHl3H
=DTEq
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From chris.stone at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 04:30:43 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:30:43 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904122130p2efa7165hbaeccd6f6d8572c3@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway
<tcallawa at redhat.com> wrote:
> On 04/12/2009 09:37 PM, Dariusz J. Garbowski wrote:
>> On 04/08/2009 01:12 AM, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
>>> - we never know how many people agree or disgree but don't reply
>>
>> I didn't want to reply but... what the heck -- I care and would prefer
>> to have Ctrl+Alt+BkSp back.
>
> http://who-t.blogspot.com/2009/04/zapping-server.html
>
> In Fedora 11, you'll be able to turn it on just like any other keyboard
> hotkey combination.

We live on a ship of fools.

An excerpt from the Fedora foundations page:

Like any friends, we occasionally disagree on details, but we believe
in finding an acceptable consensus to serve the interests of advancing
free software. We believe in a strong partnership between Red Hat and
our enormous volunteer community, since they both provide essential
contributions that help the Fedora Project succeed.

Why is this principle being ignored with the ctrl-alt-bksp issue?

I think it would be better to have a hotkey combination to turn it
*off* and just leave it enabled by default as it has been and as it
should be (no, Peter Hutterer, you are completely wrong).



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 04:50:49 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:50:49 -0500
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904122149u2471b291r3bd75d10fcda64e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904122149u2471b291r3bd75d10fcda64e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904122150u3b2f869ay776e1f12e0af090d@mail.gmail.com>

Notifying intention to take ownership is outlined in the procedures in the
wiki, please read these guidelines and obide by them.

-Adam
(From my G1)

On Apr 12, 2009 7:54 PM, "Orcan Ogetbil" <oget.fedora at gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote: > On Sun, Apr 12, 2009
at 8:12 PM, Kevin Kofle...
I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.

Anyone who is interested can take it over.

Orcan

PS: Speaking just for myself, I won't be among those people who'll get
annoyed if someone takes over an orphaned package and does not report
this on the mailing list. For everyone's information.

-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/list...
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From chris.stone at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 04:58:50 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:58:50 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway
<tcallawa at redhat.com> wrote:
> http://who-t.blogspot.com/2009/04/zapping-server.html

Excuse me Tom, this article is so bad I have to rip it apart.

> Assume that the server never supported zapping in the past. Now we add a feature that immediately and without asking terminates your session, shuts down all applications, logs you out, brings down your wireless network in the process, shuts down your VPN and generally makes the computer giggle at you.

That is one way to look at it. You could also see it as adding a cool
innovative new feature which allows inexperienced users to easily
recover from a bad X state.

> Experienced users will benefit from zapping. So make it accessible to them.

No. Inexperienced users will benefit from zapping.  So it should be
enabled by default.

Could you imagine if this was actually put up for a vote?

"Stay with default" option would be hands-down winner.

Good thing we will never see a vote on this, because we have to keep
the x.org egos inflated.  They could never possibly make a brain dead
lemming like decision.



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 06:29:27 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:29:27 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Christopher Stone wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>> http://who-t.blogspot.com/2009/04/zapping-server.html
>
> Excuse me Tom, this article is so bad I have to rip it apart.
>

Another quote:
"Those who want to use the computer but not have to know about it's
internals should not be able to accidentally trigger it."

Does this imply that people can press CTRL+ALT+Backspace accidentally??

I'm speechless.

Orcan



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 13 06:41:47 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:11:47 +0530
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>
	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>

Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Christopher Stone wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>> http://who-t.blogspot.com/2009/04/zapping-server.html
>> Excuse me Tom, this article is so bad I have to rip it apart.
>>
> 
> Another quote:
> "Those who want to use the computer but not have to know about it's
> internals should not be able to accidentally trigger it."
> 
> Does this imply that people can press CTRL+ALT+Backspace accidentally??
> 
> I'm speechless.

Many people in thread here and other places like the freedesktop mailing
list and in http://lwn.net/Articles/327141/ have claimed to accidentally
tripped this key combo.  It is not that hard.

Rahul



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 06:50:29 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:50:29 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Christopher Stone wrote:
>>> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>>> http://who-t.blogspot.com/2009/04/zapping-server.html
>>> Excuse me Tom, this article is so bad I have to rip it apart.
>>>
>>
>> Another quote:
>> "Those who want to use the computer but not have to know about it's
>> internals should not be able to accidentally trigger it."
>>
>> Does this imply that people can press CTRL+ALT+Backspace accidentally??
>>
>> I'm speechless.
>
> Many people in thread here and other places like the freedesktop mailing
> list and in http://lwn.net/Articles/327141/ have claimed to accidentally
> tripped this key combo. ?It is not that hard.
>
> Rahul
>

I really don't know what to say. It feels like the probability of
burning my hair on the stove while sticking my foot in the freezer.

Anyway, I opened a poll at fedoraforum about this:
http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=219559

I do wonder what will come out. Of course this will not reflect the
true statistics of all Fedora userbase. It never does. But it might
give an idea.

Orcan



From airlied at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 06:58:53 2009
From: airlied at redhat.com (Dave Airlie)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:58:53 +1000
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for
 Fedora 11?
In-Reply-To: <8DA4E1B6-B00F-4558-85CC-5B881700DE30@gnat.ca>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost>
	<8DA4E1B6-B00F-4558-85CC-5B881700DE30@gnat.ca>
Message-ID: <1239605934.21284.52.camel@localhost>

On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 22:06 -0600, Nathanael Noblet wrote:
> On Apr 12, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Dave Airlie wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 2009-04-11 at 20:52 -0700, Otto Rey wrote:
> >> I know that maybe it's to late, but: any plans to upgrade radeonhd  
> >> to 1.2.5 (latest upstream release, DRI enabled) for Fedora 11?
> >>
> >
> > I'd prefer people didn't run radeonhd if at all possible, unless you
> > need HDMI audio there is no reason to run it, and you are diluting the
> > testing base for Fedora by not running the shipping radeon driver.
> >
> 
> Really? Why? I thought the radeonhd was to replace radeon eventually?  
> Built off the released specs from AMD/ATI, whereas the radeon driver  
> was a reverse engineered driver without docs? Am I on crack? After  
> seeing this and thinking I was using radeonhd I looked at my x log  
> messages which show RADEON(x), so I guess I'm using that now anyway,  
> but a bit confused...
> 

No radeon supports all radeons ever. Radeon was originally a document
written driver, in fact most of radeon was written with docs from ATI or
patches from ATI. Most of the reverse engineering was in the 3D driver
in Mesa not so much in the 2D X.org driver.

RadeonHD was a clean driver for r500 and above however the developers
took what the radeon driver maintainers (i.e. me and an AMD employee)
believed to be an unsupportable direction in terms of ignoring the ATI
bios bytecode for setting up the hardware. So radeon just added support
for the bytecode interpreter and worked on lots of hardware. RadeonHD
has since switched to using this interpreter on nearly all hardware, but
at that point it was too late to rescue it. Novell/AMD attempted to prop
up radeonhd for political reasons, but it seems to be losing the battle
now.

So radeonhd is going nowhere new, radeon is the only driver that
supports the new kernel modesetting systems. With kernel modesetting the
X.org 2D driver doesn't do very much anymore, and everything that is
left for it to do is shared code between the two drivers.

Dave.



From airlied at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 07:01:51 2009
From: airlied at redhat.com (Dave Airlie)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:01:51 +1000
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for
 Fedora 11?
In-Reply-To: <gru7ln$o4$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost>  <gru7ln$o4$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239606111.21284.54.camel@localhost>

On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 21:22 -0500, Ian Pilcher wrote:
> Dave Airlie wrote:
> > I'd prefer people didn't run radeonhd if at all possible, unless you
> > need HDMI audio there is no reason to run it, and you are diluting the
> > testing base for Fedora by not running the shipping radeon driver.
> 
> My displays flicker occasionally when I use the radeon driver.  With
> radeonhd  (Option "AtomBIOS" "pll=on") they're rock solid.  Does that
> count as a reason?

Thats the exact reason I don't like shipping two drivers for one piece
of hardware, and would prefer Fedora users don't use radeonhd. If you
have filed a bug against radeon then feel free to use radeonhd since its
then my fault :-), but if you don't file a bug and switch, you just
leave yourself screwed when we move to kms everywhere since the kernel
code is based on radeon not radeonhd.

Dave.





From rc040203 at freenet.de  Mon Apr 13 07:02:06 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 09:02:06 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49E2E36E.1070706@freenet.de>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Christopher Stone wrote:
>>> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>>> http://who-t.blogspot.com/2009/04/zapping-server.html
>>> Excuse me Tom, this article is so bad I have to rip it apart.
>>>
>> Another quote:
>> "Those who want to use the computer but not have to know about it's
>> internals should not be able to accidentally trigger it."
>>
>> Does this imply that people can press CTRL+ALT+Backspace accidentally??
>>
>> I'm speechless.
> 
> Many people in thread here and other places like the freedesktop mailing
> list and in http://lwn.net/Articles/327141/ have claimed to accidentally
> tripped this key combo. 
They have learnd their lesson and won't do it again.

People will have to understand that "Linux is not Windoze" and that it's 
naive to expect all OSes to behave the same rsp to adopt the design 
flaws of other OSes.

It'll be the same people who will complain, when they find their X 
system misbehaving and they are able to cope with the situation in 
reasonable manners because Red Hat's xorg maintainers have broken 
"ctl-alt-bs".

Those people who now are complaining, are those who know how helpful 
"clt-alt-bs" is in certain situations.

> It is not that hard.
It's not that hard to press "ctl-alt-del", "ctl-alt-prsrcn", "ctl-S" and 
many other keyboard short cuts, either.




From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 07:35:39 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 00:35:39 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <grlogm$tsf$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<sviqlpqrz2.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1238537821.3179.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D29A0C.9080702@redhat.com>
	<1238539439.4338.161.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1im3$tc$1@ger.gmane.org> <1238650802.4338.196.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gr1q45$ikd$1@ger.gmane.org> <1238694566.4338.214.camel@adam.local.net>
	<grbivd$68e$1@ger.gmane.org> <1239031116.8700.62.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239221096.8700.159.camel@adam.local.net> <grlogm$tsf$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239608139.4354.16.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 23:15 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:

> > Some contacts had got duplicated for some reason, but still, nice effort.
> 
> Unfortunately, as I've been told, duplication of data is an inherent issue
> with libopensync 0.22, and the main reason why they're working on
> redesigning everything in 0.3x/0.40. Unfortunately, their redesign is
> breaking everything at the moment. :-(

Yes, but it's more of a long-term issue (or if you get an incomplete
sync - the problem is a 'slow sync' duplicates data). I wouldn't expect
it as a matter of course on a single-shot test sync. As I said, though,
it could actually have been duplicated prior to the sync, I didn't think
to check. I'll do some more extensive testing with various devices in a
bit.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 13 08:02:33 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:32:33 +0530
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>
	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>

Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

> I really don't know what to say. It feels like the probability of
> burning my hair on the stove while sticking my foot in the freezer.

Regardless of which default setting you prefer, the clear evidence is
that people do end up doing it accidentally. It doesn't have to be a
majority necessarily. I know atleast one such case personally where a
friend of mine wanted to press control alt del and since the delete key
was close to the backspace key, he accidentally pressed it. When (you
are new to Linux ) you do it accidentally, the experience is apparently
quite disturbing since you often lose data and there is no indication
that it is a expected behaviour of the system rather than a crash.

Ctl-alt-del is a well know Windows shortcut for rebooting but atleast
prompts before doing it (same thing happens in GNOME as well btw). I
personally think that the SUSE patch is a decent compromise and it looks
like fedora-setup-keyboard is going to make it a easy toggle in Fedora
as well.


> Anyway, I opened a poll at fedoraforum about this:
> http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=219559
> 
> I do wonder what will come out. Of course this will not reflect the
> true statistics of all Fedora userbase. It never does. But it might
> give an idea.

You might want to avoid putting in your own judgement in a neutral
survey. Leading questions often distort the nature of the answer.

Rahul



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 08:08:04 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:08:04 +0200
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090413100804.6a953915@faldor.intranet>

On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:53:09 -0400, Orcan wrote:

> I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
> pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
> I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.

The patch is not specific to pulseaudio, though. A bit more of a problem
is that the patch has not been merged upstream, and it is still unclear
whether or when it will be done.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WhyUpstream



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Mon Apr 13 08:09:39 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:09:39 +0800
Subject: Status of Presto?
In-Reply-To: <49E2B806.9030505@redhat.com>
References: <49E2B806.9030505@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E2F343.8070002@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/13/2009 11:56 AM, Warren Togami wrote:
> Just wondering, what is the status of presto becoming enabled by 
> default for Fedora 11?
>
> Warren
>
I think this question could also be posted to fedora-mirror-list as well 
as any other infrastructure lists, because it has less to do with users 
(all they need is to install the presto plugin for yum, right?), and 
much more to do with download mirrors & the master server.



From vpivaini at cs.helsinki.fi  Mon Apr 13 08:25:45 2009
From: vpivaini at cs.helsinki.fi (Ville-Pekka Vainio)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:25:45 +0300
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <1239583745.26129.43.camel@ignacio.lan>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
	<1239564861.618.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239583745.26129.43.camel@ignacio.lan>
Message-ID: <1239611145.26023.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

su, 2009-04-12 kello 20:49 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams kirjoitti:
> I can help co-maintain, emphasis on the "co". And the "help". And the
> "can".

Ok, thanks. I've taken ownership of all of the branches on pkgdb, feel
free to add yourself to the package. mmcgrath had requested
co-maintainership to EL-5, which I've now approved, though this might be
from the time Fedora was still using moin.

I've been preparing a 1.8.2 RPM for F11, it's mostly done, the
README.rpm file still needs a bit of work as upstream has requested to
include mod_wsgi instructions and drop mod_python instructions.

I'll probably eventually put 1.6.4 into F-9 and F-10, the EL branches
should IMHO stay at 1.5.9 because there was a major syntax change in the
1.6 series, so updating to that would break any existing installations.


-- 
Ville-Pekka Vainio



From mschmidt at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 08:45:13 2009
From: mschmidt at redhat.com (Michal Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:45:13 +0200
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for Fedora
 11?
In-Reply-To: <gru7ln$o4$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost> <gru7ln$o4$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090413104513.1e665aac@leela>

Dne Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:22:46 -0500
Ian Pilcher <arequipeno at gmail.com> napsal:

> Dave Airlie wrote:
> > I'd prefer people didn't run radeonhd if at all possible, unless you
> > need HDMI audio there is no reason to run it, and you are diluting
> > the testing base for Fedora by not running the shipping radeon
> > driver.
> 
> My displays flicker occasionally when I use the radeon driver.  With
> radeonhd  (Option "AtomBIOS" "pll=on") they're rock solid.  Does that
> count as a reason? 

Is it like this bug I reported in September?:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=463023
"scrolling in gnome-terminal causes flickering of the whole screen"

Michal



From airlied at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 08:50:17 2009
From: airlied at redhat.com (Dave Airlie)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:50:17 +1000
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239612617.21284.55.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 02:50 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> >> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Christopher Stone wrote:
> >>> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> >>>> http://who-t.blogspot.com/2009/04/zapping-server.html
> >>> Excuse me Tom, this article is so bad I have to rip it apart.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Another quote:
> >> "Those who want to use the computer but not have to know about it's
> >> internals should not be able to accidentally trigger it."
> >>
> >> Does this imply that people can press CTRL+ALT+Backspace accidentally??
> >>
> >> I'm speechless.
> >
> > Many people in thread here and other places like the freedesktop mailing
> > list and in http://lwn.net/Articles/327141/ have claimed to accidentally
> > tripped this key combo.  It is not that hard.
> >
> > Rahul
> >
> 
> I really don't know what to say. It feels like the probability of
> burning my hair on the stove while sticking my foot in the freezer.
> 
> Anyway, I opened a poll at fedoraforum about this:
> http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=219559
> 
> I do wonder what will come out. Of course this will not reflect the
> true statistics of all Fedora userbase. It never does. But it might
> give an idea.

I noticed one of the first comments is someone who missed one of the
points of Peters work. At GDM you can still C-A-B all you want, the user
preference only takes control when you login. So in those cases where
you have gdm in the wrong resolution etc you can still quickly do it.

Its unlikely anyone minds losing their username they typed at the gdm
prompt.

Dave.

> 
> Orcan
> 



From opensource at till.name  Mon Apr 13 09:05:54 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:05:54 +0200
Subject: making available usb usable iso's without using
 livecd-iso-to-disk or liveusb-creator
In-Reply-To: <20090413024436.GB8437@redhat.com>
References: <49E0D857.2000204@fedoraproject.org>
	<200904121346.46817.opensource@till.name>
	<20090413024436.GB8437@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200904131106.06094.opensource@till.name>

On Mo April 13 2009, Jeremy Katz wrote:

> On Sunday, April 12 2009, Till Maas said:

> It's on my list to look at, but its existence was a little late for F11.
> The conflict with the implanted md5 makes me a little sad inside, but
> maybe we can come up with a good way to do both.  The other thing it
> seems somewhat likely to conflict with is dual-mode MBR/EFI boot CDs
> which we also want to support.

I was fooled by the implantisomd5 error message, they do not conflict. 
implantisomd5 tells me for a hybrid and normal F11 Beta Live iso image:

| ERROR: Application data has been used - not implanting md5sum!

This should probably mean, that there is already a md5sum implanted. Using 
"implantisomd5 --force *.iso" works and the iso still boots as a HD in qemu.

> > The problem with live-iso-to-disk is, that it is not functional on F10 to
> > create F11 live USB media, because it requires a F11 syslinux package. To
> > create testing live USB media, it would be a lot better if it was
> > possible just to use the latest Fedora Stable release to create bootable
> > test media, which should be always possible to use dd or cat with the
> > hybrid iso.
>
> There's a hacked livecd-iso-to-disk.sh in git and on my fedorapeople
> page[1] that feedback on would be helpful.  Assuming it works, then
> we'll probably push the hack back to older releases.  I was hoping to
> find something better, but so far, no dice :/

Should it be tested with the original F10 syslinux package or does this not 
matter?

Regards,
Till
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From john.brown009 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 09:40:54 2009
From: john.brown009 at gmail.com (TK009)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 05:40:54 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49E308A6.1030508@gmail.com>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>
>   
>> I really don't know what to say. It feels like the probability of
>> burning my hair on the stove while sticking my foot in the freezer.
>>     
>
> Regardless of which default setting you prefer, the clear evidence is
> that people do end up doing it accidentally. It doesn't have to be a
> majority necessarily. I know atleast one such case personally where a
> friend of mine wanted to press control alt del and since the delete key
> was close to the backspace key, he accidentally pressed it. When (you
> are new to Linux ) you do it accidentally, the experience is apparently
> quite disturbing since you often lose data and there is no indication
> that it is a expected behaviour of the system rather than a crash.
>
>   
Let me ask this, how many times after that first "learning experience" 
did your friend hit that key combo by accident again?
Let me ask another question, does he use EMACS?(had to throw that in so 
you could say "stop with the conspiracy" one more time.)
If he doesn't use emacs, the likelihood of him doing it again is about 
the same as him tripping over the power cord and pulling it from the 
wall. While possible, its not probable.
> Ctl-alt-del is a well know Windows shortcut for rebooting but atleast
> prompts before doing it (same thing happens in GNOME as well btw). I
> personally think that the SUSE patch is a decent compromise and it looks
> like fedora-setup-keyboard is going to make it a easy toggle in Fedora
> as well.
>
>
>   
>> Anyway, I opened a poll at fedoraforum about this:
>> http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=219559
>>
>> I do wonder what will come out. Of course this will not reflect the
>> true statistics of all Fedora userbase. It never does. But it might
>> give an idea.
>>     
>
> You might want to avoid putting in your own judgement in a neutral
> survey. Leading questions often distort the nature of the answer.
>
> Rahul
>
>   
The poll isn't neutral at all. It is clear how the poll creator feels 
about this change.

What this comes down to is, I lose a feature because some people pay no 
attention to detail, or should that be, use emacs and pay no attention 
to detail? It's a conspiracy!

TK I mash keys without thinking, thank you for saving me 009



From paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk  Mon Apr 13 09:49:19 2009
From: paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk (Paul)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:49:19 +0100
Subject: Mono-2.4 and ppc in rawhide
Message-ID: <1239616159.15943.6.camel@PB3.linux>

Hi,

As it stands, the f11 release will not contain a ppc/ppc64 version of
mono due to a continued build issue.

As a compromise, would it be acceptible to download the latest svn
tarball, do a complete diff and patch in the diff file and then release
it but not with the svn attribute? (assuming it will build on the ppc
machines).

Failing that, should I just build mono from svn and check that in today
as a chain build? Time is short - it's my birthday today, I've also got
my kids for it (first time in 2 years), so a quick reply would help.

TTFN

Paul
-- 
?Sie k?nnen mich aufreizen und wirklich hei? machen!
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From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 10:17:03 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:17:03 +0100
Subject: Mono-2.4 and ppc in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <1239616159.15943.6.camel@PB3.linux>
References: <1239616159.15943.6.camel@PB3.linux>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904130317t149b0d07we81b0ee0215a3f45@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Paul <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As it stands, the f11 release will not contain a ppc/ppc64 version of
> mono due to a continued build issue.
>
> As a compromise, would it be acceptible to download the latest svn
> tarball, do a complete diff and patch in the diff file and then release
> it but not with the svn attribute? (assuming it will build on the ppc
> machines).

If the latest svn works on ppc it should be fine to apply the
individual patch(s) that fixes the ppc builds. Has the issue been
identified upstream?

Peter



From paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk  Mon Apr 13 11:15:42 2009
From: paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk (Paul)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:15:42 +0100
Subject: Mono-2.4 and ppc in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904130317t149b0d07we81b0ee0215a3f45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239616159.15943.6.camel@PB3.linux>
	<5256d0b0904130317t149b0d07we81b0ee0215a3f45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239621342.15943.7.camel@PB3.linux>

Hi,

> Has the issue been identified upstream?

Nope - they're not seeing the problem.

TTFN

Paul
-- 
?Sie k?nnen mich aufreizen und wirklich hei? machen!
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From paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk  Mon Apr 13 11:19:43 2009
From: paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk (Paul)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:19:43 +0100
Subject: More with mono-2.4
Message-ID: <1239621583.15943.9.camel@PB3.linux>

Hi,

The build log at

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1290915&name=build.log

is showing something odd. Can someone shed some light onto it?

After doing the excludearch ppc, I have to bootstrap a build of mono
which uses it's own binaries. Unfortunately, I'm seeing

make[4]: Entering directory `/builddir/build/BUILD/mono-2.4/mcs'
make PROFILE=basic all
make[5]: Entering directory `/builddir/build/BUILD/mono-2.4/mcs'
make[6]: execvp: mcs: Permission denied
make[6]: *** [build/deps/basic-profile-check.exe] Error 127
make[6]: Entering directory `/builddir/build/BUILD/mono-2.4/mcs'
*** The compiler 'mcs' doesn't appear to be usable.
*** Trying the 'monolite' directory.

Is this a problem on koji?

TTFN

Paul
-- 
?Sie k?nnen mich aufreizen und wirklich hei? machen!
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From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Mon Apr 13 11:26:23 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:26:23 +0200
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
	<gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E3215F.7090208@hhs.nl>

On 04/13/2009 02:53 AM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>> Looks like some of these already found new owners:
>>>
>>> Matthias Saou wrote:
>>>>   * djvulibre : 443953, 444699
>>> Now owned by Rakesh Pandit (rakesh).
>>>
>>>>   * moin : lots
>>> See Ville-Pekka Vainio's reply (he's interested, but is looking for
>>> comaintainers).
>>>
>>>>   * portaudio : 478719
>>> Now owned by Orcan Ogetbil (oget).
>>>
>>> Folks, if you take ownership of an orphaned package, can you please reply to
>>> the mail discussing the orphaning so people know? It's annoying to have to
>>> check pkgdb to see what packages have been taken over already.
>>>
>>> These ones are still up for grabs:
>>>>   * js: 341631
>>>>   * ucarp : 247082, 427495, 449266, 455394, 458767
>> Sorry for annoying people, it takes me about the same time to check
>> the email vs the pkgdb page, so I didn't bother.
>>
>> Orcan
>>
>
> I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
> pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
> I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.
>
> Anyone who is interested can take it over.
>

I've taken ownership, but only for Fedora, as I don't maintain any
EPEL packages, so I would very much welcome a co-maintainer who would then
also be *the* maintainer for the EPEl packages.

Regards,

Hans



From bpepple at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 13 11:38:56 2009
From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 07:38:56 -0400
Subject: Package Review Stats for the week ending April 12th, 2009
Message-ID: <1239622736.2854.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Top three FAS account holders who have completed reviewing "Package
review" components on bugzilla for the week ending April 12th, 2009
were Parag AN(????), Chris Weyl, and Jussi Lehtola.   Below is the
number of package reviews completed.

Parag AN(????) - 10
Chris Weyl - 8
Jussi Lehtola - 6
Iain Arnell - 5
Lubomir Rintel - 4
Jason Tibbitts - 3
Jon Ciesla - 3
Christoph Wickert - 2
Dan Hor?k - 2
Kevin Fenzi - 2
Mamoru Tasaka - 2
Mattias Ellert - 2
Orcan 'oget' Ogetbil - 2
Simon Wesp - 2
Alexander Kurtakov - 1
Alexey Torkhov - 1
Armin - 1
Hedayat Vatankhah - 1
Jan ONDREJ - 1
Jerry James - 1
Jonathan Steffan - 1
Lucian Langa - 1
Marcela Maslanova - 1
Ondrej Vasik - 1
Richard W.M. Jones - 1
Thomas Sailer - 1
Tom "spot" Callaway - 1

Review Requests: 62
Merge Reviews: 2
Total reviews modified: 66

Thanks,
/B
-- 
Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org>

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bpepple
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E
BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B  CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E
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From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 13 12:12:24 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:12:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090413 changes
Message-ID: <20090413121224.5AF4C1B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Mon Apr 13 06:15:04 UTC 2009

New package fabric
        A simple pythonic remote deployment tool
New package gmusicbrowser
        Jukebox for large collections of music files
New package libkml
        A KML library written in C++ with bindings to other languagues
New package mingw32-pangomm
        MinGW Windows C++ interface for Pango
New package perl-CSS-Minifier-XS
        XS based CSS minifier
New package perl-DBIx-Class-DateTime-Epoch
        Automatic inflation/deflation of epoch-based DateTime objects for DBIx::Class
New package perl-Devel-NYTProf
        Powerful feature-rich perl source code profiler
New package perl-Number-Format
        Perl extension for formatting numbers
New package perl-POE-Test-Loops
        Reusable tests for POE::Loop authors
New package perl-Sort-Key
        Fastest way to sort anything in Perl
New package python-chardet
        Character encoding auto-detection in Python
New package python-cly
        A module for adding powerful text-based consoles to your Python application
New package python-pyrad
        Python RADIUS client
New package unclutter
        Hide mouse cursor when idle
Updated Packages:

DeviceKit-disks-004-0.7.20090412git.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 004-0.7.20090412git.fc11
- New snapshot


alevt-1.6.2-11.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Lucian Langa <cooly at gnome.eu.org> - 1.6.2-11
- rebuild with corrected patch2


alexandria-0.6.4.1-6.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.6.4.1-6
- Trial fix to fix hang when importing list containing invalid
  isdn (alexandria-Bugs-25348)


anjuta-2.26.0.1-3.fc11
----------------------

audacious-1.5.1-7.fc11
----------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1.5.1-7
- Add "xmms-gui" provides, to be required from xmms-skins package (#470135).


boa-0.94.14-0.12.rc21.fc11
--------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 0.94.14-0.12.rc21
- Update init script to the new style.
- Move boa_indexer to libexec, as it makes more sense there.
- Fix cgi-bin location in the config patch.


celestia-1.5.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 1.5.1-1
- New upstream release


ctemplate-0.93-2.fc11
---------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Rakesh Pandit <rakesh at fedoraproject.org> - 0.93-1
- Updated to 0.93, removed patch for consts - fixed upstream

* Sun Apr 12 2009 Rakesh Pandit <rakesh at fedoraproject.org> - 0.93-2
- Added python as BuildRequires, and bswap patch for ppc


deskbar-applet-2.26.0-2.fc11
----------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Michel Salim <salimma at fedoraproject.org> - 2.26.0-2
- Fix site-packages location for 64-bit platforms


elisa-0.5.35-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 0.5.35-1
- Update to 0.5.35.

* Tue Mar 24 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 0.5.33-1
- Update to 0.5.33.


elisa-plugins-bad-0.5.35-1.fc11
-------------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 0.5.35-1
- Update to 0.5.35.


elisa-plugins-good-0.5.35-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 0.5.35-1
- Update to 0.5.35.


epiphany-2.26.1-1.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/epiphany/2.26/epiphany-2.26.1.changes


epiphany-extensions-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1


evolution-rss-0.1.2-8.fc11
--------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Lucian Langa <cooly at gnome.eu.org> - 0.1.2-8
- EVR bump

* Sat Apr 11 2009 Lucian Langa <cooly at gnome.eu.org> - 0.1.2-5
- temporary fix for bug #489217: set interval longer than 100 minutes


fedora-setup-keyboard-0.4-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Adel Gadllah <adel.gadllah at gmail.com> 0.4-1
- 0.4 release
- Dropped patch, merged upstream


gcalctool-5.26.1-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 5.26.1-1
- Update to 5.26.1


glusterfs-2.0.0-0.2.rc7.fc11
----------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 2.0.0-0.2.rc7
- Update glusterfsd init script to the new style init.
- Update files to match the new default vol file names.
- Include logrotate for glusterfsd, use a pid file by default.
- Include logrotate for glusterfs, using killall for lack of anything better.


gnome-applets-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1


gnome-disk-utility-0.3-0.4.20090412git.fc11
-------------------------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 0.3-0.4.20090412git.fc11
- New snapshot


gnome-keyring-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-keyring/2.26/gnome-keyring-2.26.1.news


gnome-mag-0.15.6-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.15.6-1
- Update to 0.15.6
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-mag/0.15/gnome-mag-0.15.6.news


gnome-python2-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1.fc11
- Update to 2.26.1


gnome-web-photo-0.7-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.7-1
- Update to 0.7


gparted-0.4.4-1.fc11
--------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Deji Akingunola <dakingun at gmail.com> - 0.4.4-1
- New upstream version


gtksourceview2-2.6.1-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.6.1-1
- Update to 2.6.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gtksourceview/2.6/gtksourceview-2.6.1.news


gucharmap-2.26.1-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1


gupnp-av-0.4-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> 0.4-1
- New upstream release


ibus-hangul-1.1.0.20090328-2.fc11
---------------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> - 1.1.0.20090330-2
- Bug 493706: ibus-hangul Hanja arrow keys are wrong
- Bug 493509: ibus-hangul missing right Ctrl for Hanja button
  These fixes are not ideal, but they make it usable for Fedora 11.
  These must become configurable in a future version.


kBuild-0.1.5-4.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 0.1.5-4
- Fix typoes (Robert P. J. Day, #495393)
- Comment out the colliding dprintf


kaffeine-0.8.7-7.fc11
---------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.7-7
- re-enable dvb (#495379)


kazehakase-0.5.6-9.svn3769_trunk.fc11
-------------------------------------

kdebase-workspace-4.2.2-3.fc11
------------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-3
- Calendar standalone plasmoid on Desktop using 100% of CPU (kde#187699)


keepalived-1.1.17-1.fc11
------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1.1.17-1
- Update to 1.1.17.
- Update init script all the way.


libatasmart-0.9-1.fc11
----------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.9-1
- New upstream release


libxml++-2.26.0-1.fc11
----------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 2.26.0-1
- Update to upstream 2.26.0 (to match Gnome release)


lighttpd-1.4.22-3.fc11
----------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1.4.22-3
- Update init script to new style.
- No longer include a sysconfig file, though one can be set to override the
  default configuration file location.


lynis-1.2.6-1.fc11
------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Rakesh Pandit <rakesh at fedoraporject.org> - 1.2.6-1
- Updated to 1.2.6: CHANHELOG for details


ochusha-0.6.0.1-0.5.cvs20090413T0000.fc11
-----------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
- Update to the latest CVS


octave-3.0.5-1.fc11
-------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Rakesh Pandit <rakesh at fedoraproject.org> - 6:3.0.5-1
- Updated to latest upstream (3.0.5)


orsa-0.7.0-8.fc11
-----------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.7.0-8
- Do not complain at all if the configuration file is missing.


p7zip-4.65-1.fc11
-----------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 4.65-1
- Update to 4.65.
- Update norar patch.


postgrey-1.32-1.fc11
--------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1.32-1
- Update to 1.32.
- Update init script to the new style.
- Slightly update README-rpm instructions.


ratproxy-1.56-1.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Rakesh Pandit <rakesh at fedoraproject.org> - 1.56-1
- Updated to 1.56


seahorse-2.26.1-1.fc11
----------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/seahorse/2.26/seahorse-2.26.1.news


shorewall-4.2.7-5.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jonathan G. Underwood <jonathan.underwood at gmail.com> - 4.2.7-5
- Update shorewall-perl to version 4.2.7.3


sound-juicer-2.26.1-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/sound-juicer/2.26/sound-juicer-2.26.1.news


spampd-2.30-6
-------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 2.30-6
- Update init script to the new style.
- Add missing Requires(pre): /usr/sbin/useradd.


syslinux-3.74-1.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Jeremy Katz <katzj at redhat.com> - 3.74-1
- update to 3.74


taskcoach-0.72.5-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Rakesh Pandit <rakesh at fedoraproject.org> - 0.72.5-1
- Updated to 0.72.5

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.71.5-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


telepathy-haze-0.3.0-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Peter Gordon <peter at thecodergeek.com> - 0.3.0-1
- Update to new upstream release (0.3.0)


telepathy-stream-engine-0.5.8-1.fc11
------------------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 0.5.8-1
- Update to 0.5.8.


thttpd-2.25b-22.fc11
--------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 2.25b-22
- Update init script all the way.


vim-perl-support-4.1-2.fc11
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Iain Arnell <iarnell at gmail.com> 4.1-2
- require perl(Devel::NYTProf) now that it's available


xmms-1.2.11-5.20071117cvs.fc11
------------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1:1.2.11-5.20071117cvs
- Add "xmms-gui" provides, to be required from xmms-skins package (#470135).


xmms-skins-1.2.10-21
--------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Matthias Saou <http://freshrpms.net/> 1:1.2.10-21
- Replace "xmms" requirement with "xmms-gui" which other players can provide,
  audacious for instance (#470135).


yofrankie-bge-1.4-0.4.20090412svn
---------------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 1.4-0.4.20090412svn
- Update the SVN snapshots with new levels
- Enhancements to the wrapper


zile-2.3.6-1.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Rakesh Pandit <rakesh at fedoraproject.org> - 2.3.6-1
- Updated to 2.3.6 (Check changelog for details)
- Added help2man in BuildRequires and adjusted %files


Summary:
Added Packages: 14
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 58






Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Setup) = 0:0.4.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Gui) = 0:0.4.0.0
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono-addins
	banshee-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins) = 0:0.4.0.0
	banshee-devel-1.4.3-1.fc11.ppc requires pkgconfig(mono-addins)
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins) = 0:0.4.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Gui) = 0:0.4.0.0
	f-spot-0.5.0.3-7.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Setup) = 0:0.4.0.0
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins) = 0:0.4.0.0
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono-addins
	gnome-do-0.8.1.3-3.fc11.ppc requires mono(Mono.Addins.Setup) = 0:0.4.0.0



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice





From limb at jcomserv.net  Mon Apr 13 12:23:26 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 07:23:26 -0500
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
Message-ID: <49E32EBE.3090902@jcomserv.net>

Matthias Saou wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Though having been able to dedicate a lot less time than before to
> Fedora during the past few years, I still maintain all of the packages
> I own as well as I can. But some packages I have lost interest in, and
> have become a burden to maintain. I'm sure others who are still using
> them would do a better job than me at maintaining them, which is why I'd
> like to orphan the following packages (open bugzilla reports listed for
> reference) :
>
>  * djvulibre : 443953, 444699
>  * js: 341631
>  * moin : lots
>  * ucarp : 247082, 427495, 449266, 455394, 458767
>  * portaudio : 478719
>
> I'll proceed to releasing ownership in the pkgdb now. I'm particularly
> ashamed of the shape I've left moin in... please forgive me. I really
> hope someone will be able to give these the attention they deserve!
>
> Matthias
>
>   
I've taken ucarp.

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From rdieter at math.unl.edu  Mon Apr 13 13:17:32 2009
From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 08:17:32 -0500
Subject: Is there an upgrade path from 32-bit to 64-bit?
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <grve1d$gg6$1@ger.gmane.org>


no (afaik).

-- Rex



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 13 13:22:32 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 09:22:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is there an upgrade path from 32-bit to 64-bit?
In-Reply-To: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904130922020.31685@localhost.localdomain>



On Fri, 10 Apr 2009, Gerry Reno wrote:

> We're finally getting rid of the last of our 32-bit hardware and now we would 
> like to migrate all machines over to 64-bit.  I explored this migration idea 
> a couple years ago on the mailing lists and basically the answer was - don't 
> know.  The few who had tried said that the ended up with a running system but 
> that it had some weird quirks every now and then.  Has anyone managed to 
> successfully migrate a system from 32-bit to 64-bit using either anaconda 
> upgrade or yum upgrade without ending up with a lot of quirks?  Is there some 
> recipe for doing this successfully?

If you don't specify any archs in your kickstart %packages then you can 
just reinstall using the same kickstart.

-sv



From the.masch at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 13:45:33 2009
From: the.masch at gmail.com (Mario Chacon)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:45:33 -0300
Subject: F11 - Problem intel drm
Message-ID: <93d66b780904130645h34bb7a4exd291c0effedeac67@mail.gmail.com>

Hello:

I got software renderize with glxgears -info and I saw this error in the
Xorg.log:

(II) intel(0): Kernel reported 232704 total, 1 used
(II) intel(0): I830CheckAvailableMemory: 930812 kB available
drmOpenDevice: node name is /dev/dri/card0
[drm] failed to load kernel module "i915"
(WW) intel(0): Failed to open DRM device
(**) intel(0): Framebuffer compression enabled
(**) intel(0): Tiling enabled
(==) intel(0): VideoRam: 131072 KB
(II) intel(0): Attempting memory allocation with tiled buffers.
(WW) intel(0): xf86AllocateGARTMemory: allocation of 1536 pages failed
    (Cannot allocate memory)
(WW) intel(0): Allocation error, framebuffer compression disabled
(WW) intel(0): xf86AllocateGARTMemory: allocation of 10 pages failed
    (Cannot allocate memory)

It's possible to fix it?

Salu2..
masch...
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From gmaxwell at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 14:02:03 2009
From: gmaxwell at gmail.com (Gregory Maxwell)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:02:03 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e692861c0904130702w658400cegbefcc16041ea8c86@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Christopher Stone
<chris.stone at gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> Good thing we will never see a vote on this, because we have to keep
> the x.org egos inflated. ?They could never possibly make a brain dead
> lemming like decision.

You should take a moment to consider the tone of your message. To me
it's coming across as unnecessarily abusive, I doubt I'm alone.

Have some perspective? we're talking about a keypress that shuts down
the X-server. There is room here for people who are intelligent,
knowledgeable, and well intentioned to disagree.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 2:29 AM, Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com> wrote:
> Another quote:
> "Those who want to use the computer but not have to know about it's
> internals should not be able to accidentally trigger it."
> Does this imply that people can press CTRL+ALT+Backspace accidentally??
> I'm speechless.

I have, quite a few times. I've always slapped my forehead after doing
it and went on with life. I just considered it my own error and it
never occurred to me to disable it.  I was somewhat surprised to hear
that some other experienced users had *not* triggered it accidentally
at least once.



From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Mon Apr 13 14:31:19 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:31:19 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49E34CB7.1090004@bwh.harvard.edu>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Christopher Stone wrote:
>>> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>>> http://who-t.blogspot.com/2009/04/zapping-server.html
>>> Excuse me Tom, this article is so bad I have to rip it apart.
>>>
>> Another quote:
>> "Those who want to use the computer but not have to know about it's
>> internals should not be able to accidentally trigger it."
>>
>> Does this imply that people can press CTRL+ALT+Backspace accidentally??
>>
>> I'm speechless.
> 
> Many people in thread here and other places like the freedesktop mailing
> list and in http://lwn.net/Articles/327141/ have claimed to accidentally
> tripped this key combo.  It is not that hard.
> 
> Rahul
> 

I think it's great that this feature can now be turned on or off via the 
GUI rather than having to manually edit xorg.conf.  I also agree with 
the general principle that default settings should normally be aimed at 
beginning users, since it's much easier for experienced users to change 
the settings to their liking.  So I think the pertinent question is, 
which users are typically more experienced, the ones who want to use 
Ctrl-Alt-Backspace, or the ones who regularly use complicated keyboard 
combinations that can lead to Ctrl-Alt-Backspace being hit accidentally? 
  (This isn't a rhetorical question, I really don't know, though I'm in 
the former category.)
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From lars at homer.se  Mon Apr 13 14:49:10 2009
From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:49:10 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E34CB7.1090004@bwh.harvard.edu>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E34CB7.1090004@bwh.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <49E350E6.7050701@homer.se>

On 04/13/2009 04:31 PM, Andre Robatino wrote:
> I think it's great that this feature can now be turned on or off via the 
> GUI rather than having to manually edit xorg.conf.  I also agree with 
> the general principle that default settings should normally be aimed at 
> beginning users, since it's much easier for experienced users to change 
> the settings to their liking. 

In that case I vote that ctrl-alt-backspace should be on by default.

The reason? Well, we do not want to learn new users that in case of 
X-windows trouble, reboot the whole machine (which in most cases is not 
needed). Instead, we instruct them to use ctrl-alt-backspace, as we have 
done for years now, to kill just the X-window.

If anyone have problem with ctrl-alt-backspace, he/she could then change 
the default to his/her liking. But the default ought to be on.

/Lars
(I have been using emacs since 1987, and never accidentally pressed 
ctrl-alt-backspace...)
-- 
Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/



From tibbs at math.uh.edu  Mon Apr 13 15:33:39 2009
From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:33:39 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	(Orcan Ogetbil's message of "Mon\, 13 Apr 2009 02\:50\:29 -0400")
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ufaeivwo9f0.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>

>>>>> "OO" == Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com> writes:

OO> I really don't know what to say. It feels like the probability of
OO> burning my hair on the stove while sticking my foot in the
OO> freezer.

Erm, I can press Ctrl-Alt-Backspace using just one thumb.  Please
don't assume that everyone's keyboard looks like yours.  (That said,
I've still never triggered it accidentally.)

 - J<



From mikeb at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 15:54:09 2009
From: mikeb at redhat.com (Mike Bonnet)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:54:09 -0400
Subject: More with mono-2.4
In-Reply-To: <1239621583.15943.9.camel@PB3.linux>
References: <1239621583.15943.9.camel@PB3.linux>
Message-ID: <49E36021.3090801@redhat.com>

Paul wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> The build log at
> 
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1290915&name=build.log
> 
> is showing something odd. Can someone shed some light onto it?
> 
> After doing the excludearch ppc, I have to bootstrap a build of mono
> which uses it's own binaries. Unfortunately, I'm seeing
> 
> make[4]: Entering directory `/builddir/build/BUILD/mono-2.4/mcs'
> make PROFILE=basic all
> make[5]: Entering directory `/builddir/build/BUILD/mono-2.4/mcs'
> make[6]: execvp: mcs: Permission denied
> make[6]: *** [build/deps/basic-profile-check.exe] Error 127
> make[6]: Entering directory `/builddir/build/BUILD/mono-2.4/mcs'
> *** The compiler 'mcs' doesn't appear to be usable.
> *** Trying the 'monolite' directory.
> 
> Is this a problem on koji?

People have seen "permission denied" when they try to run a program that 
isn't actually present in the buildroot.  Are you sure "mcs" is present 
in the buildroot, and in the path?  Perhaps a missing BuildRequires?

> TTFN
> 
> Paul
> 



From a.badger at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 15:52:22 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 08:52:22 -0700
Subject: More with mono-2.4
In-Reply-To: <1239621583.15943.9.camel@PB3.linux>
References: <1239621583.15943.9.camel@PB3.linux>
Message-ID: <49E35FB6.6030707@gmail.com>

Paul wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> The build log at
> 
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1290915&name=build.log
> 
> is showing something odd. Can someone shed some light onto it?
> 
> After doing the excludearch ppc, I have to bootstrap a build of mono
> which uses it's own binaries. Unfortunately, I'm seeing
>
You don't need to rebootstrap since we retagged the old mono package
into the buildroot.

-Toshio

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From the.masch at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 16:47:10 2009
From: the.masch at gmail.com (Mario Chacon)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:47:10 -0300
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for Fedora
	11?
In-Reply-To: <20090413104513.1e665aac@leela>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost> 
	<gru7ln$o4$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090413104513.1e665aac@leela>
Message-ID: <93d66b780904130947q770ea3f7ke2d9b4c20eb301e4@mail.gmail.com>

This driver should be work with ATI Radeon HD 3200?

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 5:45 AM, Michal Schmidt <mschmidt at redhat.com> wrote:

> Dne Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:22:46 -0500
> Ian Pilcher <arequipeno at gmail.com> napsal:
>
> > Dave Airlie wrote:
> > > I'd prefer people didn't run radeonhd if at all possible, unless you
> > > need HDMI audio there is no reason to run it, and you are diluting
> > > the testing base for Fedora by not running the shipping radeon
> > > driver.
> >
> > My displays flicker occasionally when I use the radeon driver.  With
> > radeonhd  (Option "AtomBIOS" "pll=on") they're rock solid.  Does that
> > count as a reason?
>
> Is it like this bug I reported in September?:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=463023
> "scrolling in gnome-terminal causes flickering of the whole screen"
>
> Michal
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From carl at five-ten-sg.com  Mon Apr 13 17:17:31 2009
From: carl at five-ten-sg.com (Carl Byington)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:17:31 -0700
Subject: packaging, directory ownership, %files
Message-ID: <1239643051.17206.8.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I want a spec file with something like:

%files devel-doc
%defattr(-,root,root,-)
%{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel/

%files doc
%defattr(-,root,root,-)
%{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}/



Where 
doc/%{name}-%{version} contains end user documentation, and 
doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel contains developer documentation, mainly
doxygen generated html.

However, that seems to put the developer documentation into the -doc
subpackage in addition to the -devel-doc subpackage. Is there a way to
do this so that we have a single doc/%{name}-%{version} directory owned
by the -doc subpackage, and it contains doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel
owned by the -devel-doc subpackage (which of course depends on the -doc
subpackage)?

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iD8DBQFJ43NuL6j7milTFsERAo/4AJ9ugogUumLbFoiFa81xurljH4UVKQCfRsNf
FoALgBZBz8seJjOdwtTi/8g=
=NkDc
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From a.badger at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 17:14:09 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:14:09 -0700
Subject: Mono-2.4 and ppc in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <1239616159.15943.6.camel@PB3.linux>
References: <1239616159.15943.6.camel@PB3.linux>
Message-ID: <49E372E1.8090802@gmail.com>

Paul wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> As it stands, the f11 release will not contain a ppc/ppc64 version of
> mono due to a continued build issue.
> 
As discussed earlier on this list, the worst that should happen is we
release with mono-2.4-9.RC1.fc11 which builds on ppc/ppc64.

> As a compromise, would it be acceptible to download the latest svn
> tarball, do a complete diff and patch in the diff file and then release
> it but not with the svn attribute? (assuming it will build on the ppc
> machines).
> 
> Failing that, should I just build mono from svn and check that in today
> as a chain build? Time is short - it's my birthday today, I've also got
> my kids for it (first time in 2 years), so a quick reply would help.
>
It sounds like mono's svn snapshot won't build on ppc any more than
current release + patches from the bug.  So taking a snapshot seems
unnecessary.

-Toshio



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From tcallawa at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 17:23:53 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:23:53 -0400
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
Message-ID: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>

A few more newly orphaned packages that need homes:

funionfs:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/funionfs

giflib:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/giflib

ImageMagick:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/ImageMagick

libmng:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/libmng

Please pick them up for Fedora 10 and Devel. As an added bonus, all of
these packages have already been updated to their latest versions in
rawhide.

Thanks,

~spot



From mikeb at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 17:26:37 2009
From: mikeb at redhat.com (Mike Bonnet)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:26:37 -0400
Subject: packaging, directory ownership, %files
In-Reply-To: <1239643051.17206.8.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
References: <1239643051.17206.8.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
Message-ID: <49E375CD.90608@redhat.com>

Carl Byington wrote:
> I want a spec file with something like:
> 
> %files devel-doc
> %defattr(-,root,root,-)
> %{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel/
> 
> %files doc
> %defattr(-,root,root,-)
> %{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}/
> 
> 
> 
> Where 
> doc/%{name}-%{version} contains end user documentation, and 
> doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel contains developer documentation, mainly
> doxygen generated html.
> 
> However, that seems to put the developer documentation into the -doc
> subpackage in addition to the -devel-doc subpackage. Is there a way to
> do this so that we have a single doc/%{name}-%{version} directory owned
> by the -doc subpackage, and it contains doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel
> owned by the -devel-doc subpackage (which of course depends on the -doc
> subpackage)?

Referencing a directory in the %files section automatically adds all 
files under that directory to the package.  Putting %dir in front of the 
directory allows you to own the directory but not recursively add its 
contents.

You probably want something like:

%files doc
%defattr(-,root,root,-)
%dir %{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}/
%{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}/file1
%{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}/file2
...



From limb at jcomserv.net  Mon Apr 13 17:29:40 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:29:40 -0500
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E37684.5070709@jcomserv.net>

Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> A few more newly orphaned packages that need homes:
>
> funionfs:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/funionfs
>
> giflib:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/giflib
>
> ImageMagick:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/ImageMagick
>
> libmng:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/libmng
>
> Please pick them up for Fedora 10 and Devel. As an added bonus, all of
> these packages have already been updated to their latest versions in
> rawhide.
>
> Thanks,
>
> ~spot
>
>   
nmurray is co-maintainer of  the last 3.  Might be a good candidate?

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 17:29:49 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:29:49 -0400
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <49E37684.5070709@jcomserv.net>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com> <49E37684.5070709@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <49E3768D.30304@redhat.com>

On 04/13/2009 01:29 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:

> nmurray is co-maintainer of  the last 3.  Might be a good candidate?

In a wholly related coincidence, nmurray is no longer interested in
maintaining his Fedora packages and has orphaned them. ;)

~spot



From a.badger at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 17:30:24 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:30:24 -0700
Subject: packaging, directory ownership, %files
In-Reply-To: <1239643051.17206.8.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
References: <1239643051.17206.8.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
Message-ID: <49E376B0.3050400@gmail.com>

Carl Byington wrote:
> I want a spec file with something like:
> 
> %files devel-doc
> %defattr(-,root,root,-)
> %{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel/
> 
> %files doc
> %defattr(-,root,root,-)
> %{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}/
> 
> 
> 
> Where 
> doc/%{name}-%{version} contains end user documentation, and 
> doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel contains developer documentation, mainly
> doxygen generated html.
> 
> However, that seems to put the developer documentation into the -doc
> subpackage in addition to the -devel-doc subpackage. Is there a way to
> do this so that we have a single doc/%{name}-%{version} directory owned
> by the -doc subpackage, and it contains doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel
> owned by the -devel-doc subpackage (which of course depends on the -doc
> subpackage)?
> 

Two choices:

1) Don't install the user documentation in %install.  Then have this
files entry:

%files doc
%doc userdocs/*

2) Use %exclude:

%files doc
%{_defaultdocdir}/%{name}-%{version}/
%exclude %{_defaultdocdir}/%{name}-%{version}/devel/

%exclude throws off rpm's size calculation so it's not the preferred
method, but it can be easier to implement.

-Toshio

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From limb at jcomserv.net  Mon Apr 13 17:34:51 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:34:51 -0500
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <49E3768D.30304@redhat.com>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com> <49E37684.5070709@jcomserv.net>
	<49E3768D.30304@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E377BB.8090606@jcomserv.net>

Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> On 04/13/2009 01:29 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>
>   
>> nmurray is co-maintainer of  the last 3.  Might be a good candidate?
>>     
>
> In a wholly related coincidence, nmurray is no longer interested in
> maintaining his Fedora packages and has orphaned them. ;)
>
> ~spot
>
>   
Bah!  :)  I'm doing the libmng Merge Review.  If I take ownership, can I 
finish it myself?

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 17:34:25 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:34:25 -0400
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <49E377BB.8090606@jcomserv.net>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>
	<49E37684.5070709@jcomserv.net>	<49E3768D.30304@redhat.com>
	<49E377BB.8090606@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <49E377A1.8070209@redhat.com>

On 04/13/2009 01:34 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>> On 04/13/2009 01:29 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> nmurray is co-maintainer of  the last 3.  Might be a good candidate?
>>>     
>>
>> In a wholly related coincidence, nmurray is no longer interested in
>> maintaining his Fedora packages and has orphaned them. ;)
>>
>> ~spot
>>
>>   
> Bah!  :)  I'm doing the libmng Merge Review.  If I take ownership, can I
> finish it myself?

Umm... no, but I will volunteer to finish it out in that case.

~spot



From limb at jcomserv.net  Mon Apr 13 17:37:31 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:37:31 -0500
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <49E377A1.8070209@redhat.com>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>	<49E37684.5070709@jcomserv.net>	<49E3768D.30304@redhat.com>	<49E377BB.8090606@jcomserv.net>
	<49E377A1.8070209@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E3785B.2020603@jcomserv.net>

Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> On 04/13/2009 01:34 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>   
>> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>     
>>> On 04/13/2009 01:29 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>       
>>>> nmurray is co-maintainer of  the last 3.  Might be a good candidate?
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> In a wholly related coincidence, nmurray is no longer interested in
>>> maintaining his Fedora packages and has orphaned them. ;)
>>>
>>> ~spot
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>> Bah!  :)  I'm doing the libmng Merge Review.  If I take ownership, can I
>> finish it myself?
>>     
>
> Umm... no, but I will volunteer to finish it out in that case.
>
> ~spot
>
>   
I thought not. :) If no one steps forward in the near future, I'll go 
that route.

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Mon Apr 13 17:44:30 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:44:30 +0200
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E379FE.8000007@hhs.nl>

On 04/13/2009 07:23 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> A few more newly orphaned packages that need homes:
>
> funionfs:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/funionfs
>
> giflib:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/giflib
>
> ImageMagick:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/ImageMagick
>
> libmng:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/libmng
>
> Please pick them up for Fedora 10 and Devel. As an added bonus, all of
> these packages have already been updated to their latest versions in
> rawhide.
>

I'm glad to hear that nmurray has orphaned them, this gives a much better
representation of the state they have actually been in for the last 2 years
atleast. As I've been taking care of ImageMagick during this time, I'll take
official ownership now. Co-maintainers much welcome, and if someone else
wants it all together just say the word!

Regards,

Hans



From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Mon Apr 13 17:46:38 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:46:38 -0400
Subject: Status of Presto?
In-Reply-To: <49E2F343.8070002@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49E2B806.9030505@redhat.com> <49E2F343.8070002@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <49E37A7E.5060805@bwh.harvard.edu>

Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On 04/13/2009 11:56 AM, Warren Togami wrote:
>> Just wondering, what is the status of presto becoming enabled by 
>> default for Fedora 11?
>>
>> Warren
>>
> I think this question could also be posted to fedora-mirror-list as well 
> as any other infrastructure lists, because it has less to do with users 
> (all they need is to install the presto plugin for yum, right?), and 
> much more to do with download mirrors & the master server.

According to

http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/mirror-list

this list is closed, even for reading the archives.  I hope someone with 
access to this list will post something here to let everyone else know 
whether this issue is being addressed.

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From jwboyer at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 18:04:38 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:04:38 -0400
Subject: Mono-2.4 and ppc in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <49E372E1.8090802@gmail.com>
References: <1239616159.15943.6.camel@PB3.linux> <49E372E1.8090802@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090413180438.GA2379@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:14:09AM -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
>Paul wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> As it stands, the f11 release will not contain a ppc/ppc64 version of
>> mono due to a continued build issue.
>> 
>As discussed earlier on this list, the worst that should happen is we
>release with mono-2.4-9.RC1.fc11 which builds on ppc/ppc64.
>
>> As a compromise, would it be acceptible to download the latest svn
>> tarball, do a complete diff and patch in the diff file and then release
>> it but not with the svn attribute? (assuming it will build on the ppc
>> machines).
>> 
>> Failing that, should I just build mono from svn and check that in today
>> as a chain build? Time is short - it's my birthday today, I've also got
>> my kids for it (first time in 2 years), so a quick reply would help.
>>
>It sounds like mono's svn snapshot won't build on ppc any more than
>current release + patches from the bug.  So taking a snapshot seems
>unnecessary.

We've actually had someone looking into this, primarily the person that
did many ppc fixes upstream for Mono.  The bug has the details, but at
the moment Mono builds just fine on an Apple G5 machine installed with
the latest rawhide.

Why this doesn't build in the koji environment is the odd question.

josh



From pemboa at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 19:37:05 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:37:05 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904131237x2e5e6cc2o81764098f05e4cc8@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 3:02 AM, Rahul Sundaram
<sundaram at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>
>> I really don't know what to say. It feels like the probability of
>> burning my hair on the stove while sticking my foot in the freezer.
>
> Regardless of which default setting you prefer, the clear evidence is
> that people do end up doing it accidentally. It doesn't have to be a
> majority necessarily. I know atleast one such case personally where a
> friend of mine wanted to press control alt del and since the delete key
> was close to the backspace key, he accidentally pressed it. When (you
> are new to Linux ) you do it accidentally, the experience is apparently
> quite disturbing since you often lose data and there is no indication
> that it is a expected behaviour of the system rather than a crash.

I'm confused here. He was attempting to restart the entire machine,
and instead restarted the X server, and this is considered a
significant problem?

> Ctl-alt-del is a well know Windows shortcut for rebooting but atleast
> prompts before doing it (same thing happens in GNOME as well btw). I
> personally think that the SUSE patch is a decent compromise and it looks
> like fedora-setup-keyboard is going to make it a easy toggle in Fedora
> as well.

First of all, I'm not sure why what Windows does is really important.
I think as a general rule for using machine, one shouldn't generally
randomly press buttons -- on purpose or by accident -- and expect it
to be all okay.

That said... when did Ctrl+Alt+Delete stop rebooting? I just tried it
and was surprised to see a dialog box instead. I remember using that
key combo way back since RH 7.3, I just rarely needed it.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From seg at haxxed.com  Mon Apr 13 19:57:45 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:57:45 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 13:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Regardless of which default setting you prefer, the clear evidence is
> that people do end up doing it accidentally.

So change it to ctl-alt-lshift-rshift-bs.
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From dgboles at comcast.net  Mon Apr 13 20:43:07 2009
From: dgboles at comcast.net (David)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:43:07 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>
	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>

On 4/13/2009 3:57 PM, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 13:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> Regardless of which default setting you prefer, the clear evidence is
>> that people do end up doing it accidentally.

> So change it to ctl-alt-lshift-rshift-bs.

Every time I disable this /dev/null void.


Honest to $Diety. *All* of you. Change it to something. Anything. Or don't.
But *please* shut the hell up about it. Be a man and suck in in. Deal with
it and stop whining. Shessh.

-- 


  David



From mrmazda at ij.net  Mon Apr 13 21:13:20 2009
From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:13:20 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49E3AAF0.3090507@ij.net>

On 2009/04/13 13:32 (GMT-0530) Rahul Sundaram composed:

> Regardless of which default setting you prefer, the clear evidence is
> that people do end up doing it accidentally.

I prefer to think no three key combination can be struck by accident, but
rather only by incompetence of keyboard design and/or user. There's a limit
to how far anyone or anything can go to prevent "accidents".

As long as standard keyboards continue to keep some considerable distance
between any two of those three keys, Ctrl-Alt-BS should by default continue
to function as it did last century.
-- 
"He who works his land will have abundant food, but the
one who chases fantasies will have his fill of poverty."
				Proverbs 28:19 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/



From snecklifter at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 21:36:53 2009
From: snecklifter at gmail.com (Christopher Brown)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:36:53 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E3AAF0.3090507@ij.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org> <49E3AAF0.3090507@ij.net>
Message-ID: <364d303b0904131436p5e589413p885340dff7cb0174@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/13 Felix Miata <mrmazda at ij.net>:
> On 2009/04/13 13:32 (GMT-0530) Rahul Sundaram composed:
>
>> Regardless of which default setting you prefer, the clear evidence is
>> that people do end up doing it accidentally.
>
> I prefer to think no three key combination can be struck by accident, but
> rather only by incompetence of keyboard design and/or user. There's a limit
> to how far anyone or anything can go to prevent "accidents".
>
> As long as standard keyboards continue to keep some considerable distance
> between any two of those three keys, Ctrl-Alt-BS should by default continue
> to function as it did last century.

Yes please.

If the only reason we are disabling c-a-b is due to the corner case of:

"People who somehow manage to - quite incredibly - push this combo by accident"

then someone is getting patch-happy and this needs a quick revert. The
number of users who hit this by accident will always be less than
those that require it to restart X. It seems clear that the majority
of users require this functionality and that disabling it is not the
best way of improving the X server.

As someone previously put, this increases the number of post-install
operations required - qv. nautilus spatial behaviour. Please don't
bring back the kickstart counter for this as asking users to configure
kickstarts is not sane.

I'm disappointed that despite numerous user requests this has not been
changed back. I'm well aware of the policy to follow upstream as
closely as possible but I believe user experience should override
this.

-- 
Christopher Brown



From opensource at till.name  Mon Apr 13 21:39:06 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:39:06 +0200
Subject: Final Development Freeze Coming!!
In-Reply-To: <1239377217.7037.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239377217.7037.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904132339.17363.opensource@till.name>

On Fr April 10 2009, Jesse Keating wrote:
> The final devel freeze for Fedora 11 is this coming Tuesday.  After that
> point, any changes will have to be explicitly approved as per
> the Final Freeze policy[1].

At which time will everything get frozen?

Regards,
Till
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From tibbs at math.uh.edu  Mon Apr 13 22:01:01 2009
From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:01:01 -0500
Subject: Agenda for the 2009-04-14 Packaging Committee meeting
Message-ID: <ufazlek1aea.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>

The Packaging Committee will meet Tuesday, 2009-04-14 at 17:00UTC in
the #fedora-meeting channel on chat.freenode.net.

FPC works from the agenda at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/GuidelinesTodo; here are some
things which should be brought up for discussion at the next meeting:

Common Package Names -
  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_package_names_packaging_guideline_draft
  FPC has discussed this at multiple previous meetings and continues
  to refine the draft.

Using Alternatives -
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/UsingAlternatives

WordPress Plugins -
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ianweller/WordPress_plugin_packaging_guidelines_(draft)
  This was discussed in a previous meeting and just needs a vote.

FPC meeting time -
  It looks like the set of time requirements of all committee members
  is unsatistiable.  We'll need to discuss how to proceed.

 - J<



From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 13 22:25:02 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:25:02 -0700
Subject: Final Development Freeze Coming!!
In-Reply-To: <200904132339.17363.opensource@till.name>
References: <1239377217.7037.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904132339.17363.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <1239661502.3966.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 23:39 +0200, Till Maas wrote:
> On Fr April 10 2009, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > The final devel freeze for Fedora 11 is this coming Tuesday.  After that
> > point, any changes will have to be explicitly approved as per
> > the Final Freeze policy[1].
> 
> At which time will everything get frozen?
> 

Normally I would freeze around 0500 UTC on the freeze date, however
given how quickly this freeze came up and the holiday weekend I will
wait until 0500 the next day, so that Wednesday's rawhide compose will
be of the frozen content.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From a.badger at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 23:35:29 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:35:29 -0700
Subject: Mono-2.4 and ppc in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <20090413180438.GA2379@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
References: <1239616159.15943.6.camel@PB3.linux> <49E372E1.8090802@gmail.com>
	<20090413180438.GA2379@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <49E3CC41.8090603@gmail.com>

Josh Boyer wrote:
> 
> We've actually had someone looking into this, primarily the person that
> did many ppc fixes upstream for Mono.  The bug has the details, but at
> the moment Mono builds just fine on an Apple G5 machine installed with
> the latest rawhide.
> 
> Why this doesn't build in the koji environment is the odd question.
> 
Short update.  This comes in two pieces:

1) mono-2.4RC1 has been built for F11.  The package is
mono-2.4-15.1.RC1.fc11:
  http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1295722

This package has the moonlight necessary bits flipped on and the other
changes to the packaging (not the upstream code) from later releases.
It is not built for ppc64 as we've never had ppc64 mono.  We can look at
fixing that once we get mono-2.4-final building on ppc.  This package
should be our fallback in case we aren't able to fix the bugs in
mono-2.4-final by the time F11 ships.

**Important** Anyone who has been building mono packages with
ExcludeArch: ppc, please fix that.  We need to get those packages back
into the ppc tree ASAP.  this goes double for mono libraries.

2) The bugs in mono/ppc are being worked through here:
  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494026

So far Steven Munroe has diagnosed and fixed a problem in the assembly
for ppc and has narrowed down the current build failure to a particular
configure flag.  We'll keep you posted as we (mostly Steven ;-) gets the
rest of the bugs worked out.

-Toshio

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From tony at bakeyournoodle.com  Mon Apr 13 23:45:30 2009
From: tony at bakeyournoodle.com (Tony Breeds)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:45:30 +1000
Subject: Fedora 11 Snapshot 1
In-Reply-To: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090413234530.GS16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 08:09:36AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> This is the first and final snapshot before our final devel freeze
> (April 14th) and subsequent preview release.  On the torrent sites
> you'll find live images for testing.  http://torrent.fedoraproject.org
> and http://spins.fedoraproject.org

For thos eof us on corporate networks that block torrent traffic is there a way
to get ther ISO's  I'd like to see F-11 working on powerpc, so seeing what
still needs to be done after Snap1 would be great.

Yours Tony



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 14 00:16:12 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 05:46:12 +0530
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E308A6.1030508@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E308A6.1030508@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E3D5CC.6060108@fedoraproject.org>

TK009 wrote:

> Let me ask this, how many times after that first "learning experience"
> did your friend hit that key combo by accident again?

I have no idea. He doesn't use Linux that often anyway these days.

> Let me ask another question, does he use EMACS?(had to throw that in so
> you could say "stop with the conspiracy" one more time.)

Nothing to do with Emacs at all.

> If he doesn't use emacs, the likelihood of him doing it again is about
> the same as him tripping over the power cord and pulling it from the
> wall. While possible, its not probable.

Even in other threads in the mailing list, people have said they have
done so, repeatedly. I have read comments in other places as well.
Apparently, it is not just possible but happening to people as well.
Analysing one particular case isn't going to reveal much.

Rahul



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 14 00:21:53 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 05:51:53 +0530
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904131237x2e5e6cc2o81764098f05e4cc8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>
	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<16de708d0904131237x2e5e6cc2o81764098f05e4cc8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E3D721.6000000@fedoraproject.org>

Arthur Pemberton wrote:

> I'm confused here. He was attempting to restart the entire machine,
> and instead restarted the X server, and this is considered a
> significant problem?

Yes because control alt del calls up the task manager in Windows in
recent versions and even initiating a reboot, you get a prompt for
confirmation and applications get time to save data.

> That said... when did Ctrl+Alt+Delete stop rebooting? I just tried it
> and was surprised to see a dialog box instead. I remember using that
> key combo way back since RH 7.3, I just rarely needed it.

I don't recall the specifics but it has been that way for a long time now.

Rahul



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 14 00:22:04 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 05:52:04 +0530
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E308A6.1030508@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E308A6.1030508@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E3D72C.6030800@fedoraproject.org>

TK009 wrote:

> Let me ask this, how many times after that first "learning experience"
> did your friend hit that key combo by accident again?

I have no idea. He doesn't use Linux that often anyway these days.

> Let me ask another question, does he use EMACS?(had to throw that in so
> you could say "stop with the conspiracy" one more time.)

Nothing to do with Emacs at all.

> If he doesn't use emacs, the likelihood of him doing it again is about
> the same as him tripping over the power cord and pulling it from the
> wall. While possible, its not probable.

Even in other threads in the mailing list, people have said they have
done so, repeatedly. I have read comments in other places as well.
Apparently, it is not just possible but happening to people as well.
Analysing one particular case isn't going to reveal much.

Rahul



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 14 00:33:08 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 06:03:08 +0530
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904131237x2e5e6cc2o81764098f05e4cc8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>
	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<16de708d0904131237x2e5e6cc2o81764098f05e4cc8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E3D9C4.5090702@fedoraproject.org>

Arthur Pemberton wrote:

> I'm confused here. He was attempting to restart the entire machine,
> and instead restarted the X server, and this is considered a
> significant problem?

Yes because control alt del calls up the task manager in Windows in
recent versions and even initiating a reboot, you get a prompt for
confirmation and applications get time to save data.

> That said... when did Ctrl+Alt+Delete stop rebooting? I just tried it
> and was surprised to see a dialog box instead. I remember using that
> key combo way back since RH 7.3, I just rarely needed it.

I don't recall the specifics but it has been that way for a long time now.

Rahul



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 00:38:31 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:38:31 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 Snapshot 1
In-Reply-To: <20090413234530.GS16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>
References: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090413234530.GS16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904131738s3f03f77cma7f4e3785ac9791e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Tony Breeds <tony at bakeyournoodle.com>wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 08:09:36AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > This is the first and final snapshot before our final devel freeze
> > (April 14th) and subsequent preview release.  On the torrent sites
> > you'll find live images for testing.  http://torrent.fedoraproject.org
> > and http://spins.fedoraproject.org
>
> For thos eof us on corporate networks that block torrent traffic is there a
> way
> to get ther ISO's  I'd like to see F-11 working on powerpc, so seeing what
> still needs to be done after Snap1 would be great.
>
> Yours Tony
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

The snapshot spin was unusable on VMware. The "Home Folder" was in an
infinite loop of loading and crashing. None of the services actually worked.
Nautilus was unusable. Mounting failed, Anaconda locked up often, and I
could never get it to load long enough to actually get to run Mono 2.4 and
MonoDevelop 2.0
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From jwboyer at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 00:41:26 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:41:26 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 Snapshot 1
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904131738s3f03f77cma7f4e3785ac9791e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090413234530.GS16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>
	<8278b1b0904131738s3f03f77cma7f4e3785ac9791e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090414004126.GA7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 07:38:31PM -0500, King InuYasha wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Tony Breeds <tony at bakeyournoodle.com>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 08:09:36AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> > This is the first and final snapshot before our final devel freeze
>> > (April 14th) and subsequent preview release.  On the torrent sites
>> > you'll find live images for testing.  http://torrent.fedoraproject.org
>> > and http://spins.fedoraproject.org
>>
>> For thos eof us on corporate networks that block torrent traffic is there a
>> way
>> to get ther ISO's  I'd like to see F-11 working on powerpc, so seeing what
>> still needs to be done after Snap1 would be great.
>>
>> Yours Tony
>>
>> --
>> fedora-devel-list mailing list
>> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>>
>
>The snapshot spin was unusable on VMware. The "Home Folder" was in an
>infinite loop of loading and crashing. None of the services actually worked.
>Nautilus was unusable. Mounting failed, Anaconda locked up often, and I
>could never get it to load long enough to actually get to run Mono 2.4 and
>MonoDevelop 2.0

If you got to the point where you could actually login, then you got farther
than the ppc Beta ever did.  So testing the snapshot there is still useful.

josh



From jwboyer at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 00:43:40 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:43:40 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 Snapshot 1
In-Reply-To: <20090414004126.GA7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
References: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090413234530.GS16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>
	<8278b1b0904131738s3f03f77cma7f4e3785ac9791e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090414004126.GA7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <20090414004340.GB7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 08:41:26PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 07:38:31PM -0500, King InuYasha wrote:
>>On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Tony Breeds <tony at bakeyournoodle.com>wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 08:09:36AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
>>> > This is the first and final snapshot before our final devel freeze
>>> > (April 14th) and subsequent preview release.  On the torrent sites
>>> > you'll find live images for testing.  http://torrent.fedoraproject.org
>>> > and http://spins.fedoraproject.org
>>>
>>> For thos eof us on corporate networks that block torrent traffic is there a
>>> way
>>> to get ther ISO's  I'd like to see F-11 working on powerpc, so seeing what
>>> still needs to be done after Snap1 would be great.
>>>
>>> Yours Tony
>>>
>>> --
>>> fedora-devel-list mailing list
>>> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>>>
>>
>>The snapshot spin was unusable on VMware. The "Home Folder" was in an
>>infinite loop of loading and crashing. None of the services actually worked.
>>Nautilus was unusable. Mounting failed, Anaconda locked up often, and I
>>could never get it to load long enough to actually get to run Mono 2.4 and
>>MonoDevelop 2.0
>
>If you got to the point where you could actually login, then you got farther
>than the ppc Beta ever did.  So testing the snapshot there is still useful.

Except I'm dumb and forgot we don't do snapshot releases of ppc because it's
just the LiveCD images.  Sigh.

josh



From tony at bakeyournoodle.com  Tue Apr 14 00:46:14 2009
From: tony at bakeyournoodle.com (Tony Breeds)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:46:14 +1000
Subject: Fedora 11 Snapshot 1
In-Reply-To: <20090414004340.GB7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
References: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090413234530.GS16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>
	<8278b1b0904131738s3f03f77cma7f4e3785ac9791e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090414004126.GA7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
	<20090414004340.GB7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <20090414004614.GT16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 08:43:40PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:

> Except I'm dumb and forgot we don't do snapshot releases of ppc because it's
> just the LiveCD images.  Sigh.

Ahh Oh well.

Yours Tony



From peter.hutterer at who-t.net  Tue Apr 14 00:50:34 2009
From: peter.hutterer at who-t.net (Peter Hutterer)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:50:34 +1000
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090414005033.GA12818@who-t.net>

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 09:58:50PM -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway
> <tcallawa at redhat.com> wrote:
> > http://who-t.blogspot.com/2009/04/zapping-server.html
> 
> Excuse me Tom, this article is so bad I have to rip it apart.
> 
> > Assume that the server never supported zapping in the past. Now we add a feature that immediately and without asking terminates your session, shuts down all applications, logs you out, brings down your wireless network in the process, shuts down your VPN and generally makes the computer giggle at you.
> 
> That is one way to look at it. You could also see it as adding a cool
> innovative new feature which allows inexperienced users to easily
> recover from a bad X state.
> 
> > Experienced users will benefit from zapping. So make it accessible to them.
> 
> No. Inexperienced users will benefit from zapping.  So it should be
> enabled by default.
> 
> Could you imagine if this was actually put up for a vote?
> 
> "Stay with default" option would be hands-down winner.
> 
> Good thing we will never see a vote on this, because we have to keep
> the x.org egos inflated.  They could never possibly make a brain dead
> lemming like decision.

A vote of a non-representative group is still non-representative even if you
increase the sample size. so I'm not sure how a vote on fedora-devel should be
worth more or less than a vote on xorg-devel, or gnome-devel, or... 
There are also a number of users that don't know what a mailing list is and
could not partake in such a vote. (I have evidence of at least one, presumably
there are others). if you have _actual_ representative data, I'll happily
listen. seriously.

Please remember too that we're talking about a feature that is accessible to
every GUI user, not just administrators, developers, geeks, or some other more
experienced group.

I'm also not quite sure how that has to do with inflating egos. I've spent
some time last week to actually make you (well, not particularly you, but..)
happy because:
- fedora-setup-keyboard merges this key automatically now.
- the C-A-B shortcut is enabled during gdm, which is usually when you notice
  that something output-related is broken.
- c-a-b works if you start your custom X session, it gets disabled (or not)
  when gnome-keyboard-properties applies the user-configured settings.
- gnome-keyboard-properties provides a simple checkbox to enable it if needed.
- the xkeyboard-config rules allow for different combinations for
  Terminate_Server, which is an improvement to the hardcoded value before.
- the keyboard driver now uses XKB instead of its own hardcoded zapping.

With the exception that the default is still disabled, everything around is
now working properly and pretty much like layouts generally do.
I'm sorry that you don't like the new default, but at least I've tried hard to
make it as easy for you to enable it again should you need it.

Cheers,
  Peter, who asks for a at least a polite tone in the reply.



From tgl at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 01:17:45 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:17:45 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 Snapshot 1 
In-Reply-To: <20090414004340.GB7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> 
References: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090413234530.GS16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>
	<8278b1b0904131738s3f03f77cma7f4e3785ac9791e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090414004126.GA7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
	<20090414004340.GB7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <26487.1239671865@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Josh Boyer <jwboyer at gmail.com> writes:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 08:41:26PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
>> If you got to the point where you could actually login, then you got farther
>> than the ppc Beta ever did.  So testing the snapshot there is still useful.

> Except I'm dumb and forgot we don't do snapshot releases of ppc because it's
> just the LiveCD images.  Sigh.

I'd suggest grabbing the nightly rawhide snapshot of the ppc boot.iso
and seeing if you can do a network install.  (So far, you can't, but
maybe it will get fixed.)

			regards, tom lane



From tony at bakeyournoodle.com  Tue Apr 14 01:35:53 2009
From: tony at bakeyournoodle.com (Tony Breeds)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:35:53 +1000
Subject: Fedora 11 Snapshot 1
In-Reply-To: <26487.1239671865@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090413234530.GS16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>
	<8278b1b0904131738s3f03f77cma7f4e3785ac9791e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090414004126.GA7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
	<20090414004340.GB7023@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
	<26487.1239671865@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <20090414013553.GU16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 09:17:45PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Josh Boyer <jwboyer at gmail.com> writes:
> > On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 08:41:26PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
> >> If you got to the point where you could actually login, then you got farther
> >> than the ppc Beta ever did.  So testing the snapshot there is still useful.
> 
> > Except I'm dumb and forgot we don't do snapshot releases of ppc because it's
> > just the LiveCD images.  Sigh.
> 
> I'd suggest grabbing the nightly rawhide snapshot of the ppc boot.iso
> and seeing if you can do a network install.  (So far, you can't, but
> maybe it will get fixed.)

You're using yaboot over the network right?  Thats should work if you have
1.3.14-12.fc11

But I'll wait until after the devel freeze and grab the following rawhide.

Yours Tony



From chris.stone at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 01:51:12 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:51:12 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090414005033.GA12818@who-t.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090414005033.GA12818@who-t.net>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904131851j674a383cvb555604135be5193@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Peter Hutterer
<peter.hutterer at who-t.net> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 09:58:50PM -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:
>> Good thing we will never see a vote on this, because we have to keep
>> the x.org egos inflated. ?They could never possibly make a brain dead
>> lemming like decision.
>
> A vote of a non-representative group is still non-representative even if you
> increase the sample size. so I'm not sure how a vote on fedora-devel should be
> worth more or less than a vote on xorg-devel, or gnome-devel, or...
> There are also a number of users that don't know what a mailing list is and
> could not partake in such a vote. (I have evidence of at least one, presumably
> there are others). if you have _actual_ representative data, I'll happily
> listen. seriously.

Actually, I was thinking about a formal vote, like they do for FESCo
elections, or voting for a Fedora code name.  It would not be
representative of every single Fedora end user, but it would represent
the people who contribute to Fedora.  I hope you will happily listen
to the results of such a vote if it ever occurs, which it wont, so the
point is moot.



>
> Please remember too that we're talking about a feature that is accessible to
> every GUI user, not just administrators, developers, geeks, or some other more
> experienced group.

Indeed, please remember that this feature is most beneficial to
non-administrators, and non-developers, and non-geeks or some other
non-experienced group.  It is the experienced ones who are able to
switch virtual consoles and recover from X properly.  It is the
non-experienced ones who need a short-cut key.  Especially when it
comes to handling support calls/chats.



>
> I'm also not quite sure how that has to do with inflating egos. I've spent
> some time last week to actually make you (well, not particularly you, but..)
> happy because:

It's quite simple.  You have to have a hyper-inflated ego in order to
actually think that disabling a crash recovery feature in your
software will somehow be beneficial, or is no longer used or needed.
If the x.org guys didn't have huge egos they would have rejected
disabling the zap feature outright on the grounds that their software
is no where near stable enough to illicit such a change in the
defaults.



> - fedora-setup-keyboard merges this key automatically now.
> - the C-A-B shortcut is enabled during gdm, which is usually when you notice
> ?that something output-related is broken.
> - c-a-b works if you start your custom X session, it gets disabled (or not)
> ?when gnome-keyboard-properties applies the user-configured settings.
> - gnome-keyboard-properties provides a simple checkbox to enable it if needed.
> - the xkeyboard-config rules allow for different combinations for
> ?Terminate_Server, which is an improvement to the hardcoded value before.
> - the keyboard driver now uses XKB instead of its own hardcoded zapping.

This is awesome, I hope that this work goes towards making it easy to
*remove* the don't zap.  As it should be enabled by default.  Should
you happen to be in the extreme minority of people who do not want
ctrl-alt-bksp enabled by default, it is now easy for you to disable
it.  Thanks to everyone for their contributions, now if only we can
get the defaults correct....



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 02:07:25 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 07:37:25 +0530
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904131907s297212bemd3a1161bd317d35d@mail.gmail.com>

> giflib:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/giflib

Toshio Kuratomi seems to be interested since he has an application for
co-maintainership filed with PackageDB.

Cheers,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From chris.stone at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 02:10:13 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:10:13 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090414005033.GA12818@who-t.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090414005033.GA12818@who-t.net>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904131910w11333bb2o938225ad84630cd9@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Peter Hutterer
<peter.hutterer at who-t.net> wrote:
> A vote of a non-representative group is still non-representative even if you
> increase the sample size. so I'm not sure how a vote on fedora-devel should be
> worth more or less than a vote on xorg-devel, or gnome-devel, or...

You should also note that on every single mailing list, including
x.org's, the consensus was overwhelming against changing the defaults.
 You will not be able to find any thread on any mailing list where the
majority of people think ctrl-alt-bksp should be removed.  Try to
prove me wrong.

The decision was made on IRC by a couple of guys with no logs.



From a.badger at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 02:46:23 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:46:23 -0700
Subject: mono breaks with dynamic linking on ppc? [was Re: Mono-2.4 and ppc
 in rawhide]
In-Reply-To: <49E3CC41.8090603@gmail.com>
References: <1239616159.15943.6.camel@PB3.linux> <49E372E1.8090802@gmail.com>
	<20090413180438.GA2379@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
	<49E3CC41.8090603@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E3F8FF.90000@gmail.com>

Toshio Kuratomi wrote:

> 2) The bugs in mono/ppc are being worked through here:
>   https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494026
> 
> So far Steven Munroe has diagnosed and fixed a problem in the assembly
> for ppc and has narrowed down the current build failure to a particular
> configure flag.  We'll keep you posted as we (mostly Steven ;-) gets the
> rest of the bugs worked out.
> 
So mono builds itself and then uses the resulting binary during the
build process.  If we link that binary dynamically against libmono.so,
at least some subsequent commands break on ppc.  If we link that binary
statically against libmono.so (but dynamically against everything else)
then subsequent commands work fine and we get mono packages built.  Does
this sound like a bug in gcc or the dynamic linker?  Does this remind
anyone of some other bug they've encountered in the past?

-Toshio

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From thuforuk at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Apr 14 03:05:17 2009
From: thuforuk at yahoo.co.uk (Dariusz J. Garbowski)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:05:17 -0600
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090414005033.GA12818@who-t.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>
	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>
	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090414005033.GA12818@who-t.net>
Message-ID: <49E3FD6D.7080905@yahoo.co.uk>

On 04/13/2009 06:50 PM, Peter Hutterer wrote:
> A vote of a non-representative group is still non-representative even if you
> increase the sample size. so I'm not sure how a vote on fedora-devel should be
> worth more or less than a vote on xorg-devel, or gnome-devel, or... 
> There are also a number of users that don't know what a mailing list is and
> could not partake in such a vote. (I have evidence of at least one, presumably
> there are others). if you have _actual_ representative data, I'll happily
> listen. seriously.

Interesting logic -- first establish that it's not possible to get 
representative data, then offer to listen to "_actual_ representative" 
data... Catch 22?

> I've spent
> some time last week to actually make you (well, not particularly you, but..)
> happy because:
> - fedora-setup-keyboard merges this key automatically now.
> - the C-A-B shortcut is enabled during gdm, which is usually when you notice
>   that something output-related is broken.
> - c-a-b works if you start your custom X session, it gets disabled (or not)
>   when gnome-keyboard-properties applies the user-configured settings.
> - gnome-keyboard-properties provides a simple checkbox to enable it if needed.
> - the xkeyboard-config rules allow for different combinations for
>   Terminate_Server, which is an improvement to the hardcoded value before.
> - the keyboard driver now uses XKB instead of its own hardcoded zapping.
>
> With the exception that the default is still disabled, everything around is
> now working properly and pretty much like layouts generally do.
> I'm sorry that you don't like the new default, but at least I've tried hard to
> make it as easy for you to enable it again should you need it.

This sounds sane. Is it also the case with other desktops (e.g. KDE), 
window managers (should I choose to run, eh, AfterStep, instead of full 
blown desktop environment)?

Thanks for your work, Peter.

-- 
thufor




		
___________________________________________________________ 
The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 03:12:09 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:12:09 -0600
Subject: mono breaks with dynamic linking on ppc? [was Re: Mono-2.4 and 
	ppc in rawhide]
In-Reply-To: <49E3F8FF.90000@gmail.com>
References: <1239616159.15943.6.camel@PB3.linux> <49E372E1.8090802@gmail.com>
	<20090413180438.GA2379@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
	<49E3CC41.8090603@gmail.com> <49E3F8FF.90000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904132012x2be76bc2v3852361fcd04064b@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger at gmail.com> wrote:
> So mono builds itself and then uses the resulting binary during the
> build process. ?If we link that binary dynamically against libmono.so,
> at least some subsequent commands break on ppc. ?If we link that binary
> statically against libmono.so (but dynamically against everything else)
> then subsequent commands work fine and we get mono packages built. ?Does
> this sound like a bug in gcc or the dynamic linker? ?Does this remind
> anyone of some other bug they've encountered in the past?
>
> -Toshio

Wild shot in the dark: is -fPIC supplied for every single source file
and also for the link command to create libmono.so?

When subsequent commands "break", how exactly are they breaking?

Is this still a koji-only problem, or can it be reproduced on
somebody's personal machine now?
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From pemboa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 03:14:36 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:14:36 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904131910w11333bb2o938225ad84630cd9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090414005033.GA12818@who-t.net>
	<d9c612bf0904131910w11333bb2o938225ad84630cd9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904132014k4271c026p371eb719a5726e30@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Christopher Stone
<chris.stone at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Peter Hutterer
> The decision was made on IRC by a couple of guys with no logs.


It would be nice if there were _at least_ some logs so the rest of us
could follow the logic.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From a.badger at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 03:18:21 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:18:21 -0700
Subject: mono breaks with dynamic linking on ppc? [was Re: Mono-2.4 and
 ppc in rawhide]
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904132012x2be76bc2v3852361fcd04064b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239616159.15943.6.camel@PB3.linux>
	<49E372E1.8090802@gmail.com>	<20090413180438.GA2379@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>	<49E3CC41.8090603@gmail.com>
	<49E3F8FF.90000@gmail.com>
	<870180fe0904132012x2be76bc2v3852361fcd04064b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E4007D.1010708@gmail.com>

Jerry James wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger at gmail.com> wrote:
>> So mono builds itself and then uses the resulting binary during the
>> build process.  If we link that binary dynamically against libmono.so,
>> at least some subsequent commands break on ppc.  If we link that binary
>> statically against libmono.so (but dynamically against everything else)
>> then subsequent commands work fine and we get mono packages built.  Does
>> this sound like a bug in gcc or the dynamic linker?  Does this remind
>> anyone of some other bug they've encountered in the past?
>>
>> -Toshio
> 
> Wild shot in the dark: is -fPIC supplied for every single source file
> and also for the link command to create libmono.so?
> 
I don't know for sure but I'd expect x86_64 to break as well if that
wasn't happening.

> When subsequent commands "break", how exactly are they breaking?
> 
In the mono build, mcs.exe is used to build some C# files and that
overflows the stack:
Stack overflow in unmanaged: IP: 0xf8b4b54, fault addr: 0xff18bda0
Stack overflow in unmanaged: IP: 0xf8b4b54, fault addr: 0xff18abd0

(More details are in the build.log's linked from this bug:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494026
)

> Is this still a koji-only problem, or can it be reproduced on
> somebody's personal machine now?

Nope.  It can be reproduced on personal machines as well.

-Toshio

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From chrisw at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 04:39:47 2009
From: chrisw at redhat.com (Chris Wright)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:39:47 -0700
Subject: VMI-Support for x86_64 in future?
In-Reply-To: <49E2BE64.8000805@thelounge.net>
References: <49E2BE64.8000805@thelounge.net>
Message-ID: <20090414043947.GA32504@x200.localdomain>

* Reindl Harald (h.reindl at thelounge.net) wrote:
> Does anyone know if its possible to use VMI for x86_64-Fedora-Guests

It is not, VMI is 32-bit guest only.

thanks,
-chris



From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 05:54:10 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:54:10 +0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090414005033.GA12818@who-t.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090414005033.GA12818@who-t.net>
Message-ID: <200904141054.10896.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 14 April 2009 05:50:34 Peter Hutterer wrote:
> - the keyboard driver now uses XKB instead of its own hardcoded zapping.

Does this solution have the same chance to kill X as the hardcoded one had?
I mean: is it possible for situations where this solution doesn't work but the 
old one does? (like broken grabs...)

Cheers,
Suren



From denis at poolshark.org  Tue Apr 14 06:10:52 2009
From: denis at poolshark.org (Denis Leroy)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:10:52 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 Snapshot 1
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904131738s3f03f77cma7f4e3785ac9791e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<20090413234530.GS16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>
	<8278b1b0904131738s3f03f77cma7f4e3785ac9791e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E428EC.5010204@poolshark.org>

King InuYasha wrote:
> The snapshot spin was unusable on VMware. The "Home Folder" was in an 
> infinite loop of loading and crashing. None of the services actually 
> worked. Nautilus was unusable. Mounting failed, Anaconda locked up 
> often, and I could never get it to load long enough to actually get to 
> run Mono 2.4 and MonoDevelop 2.0

Even worse on my T61, where the live CD reboots right after grub 
graphical login, and a USB stick made from it shows an all-white screen 
right after BIOS...



From opensource at till.name  Tue Apr 14 06:16:27 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:16:27 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 Snapshot 1
In-Reply-To: <49E428EC.5010204@poolshark.org>
References: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904131738s3f03f77cma7f4e3785ac9791e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E428EC.5010204@poolshark.org>
Message-ID: <200904140816.39245.opensource@till.name>

On Di April 14 2009, Denis Leroy wrote:

> Even worse on my T61, where the live CD reboots right after grub
> graphical login, and a USB stick made from it shows an all-white screen
> right after BIOS...

You need the syslinux version that is in rawhide when you create F11 live USB 
media to not get the white screen.

Regards,
Till
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From pmatilai at laiskiainen.org  Tue Apr 14 08:27:40 2009
From: pmatilai at laiskiainen.org (Panu Matilainen)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:27:40 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: packaging, directory ownership, %files
In-Reply-To: <49E376B0.3050400@gmail.com>
References: <1239643051.17206.8.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<49E376B0.3050400@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0904141126570.12791@gotcha.dreamhost.com>

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:

> Carl Byington wrote:
>> I want a spec file with something like:
>>
>> %files devel-doc
>> %defattr(-,root,root,-)
>> %{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel/
>>
>> %files doc
>> %defattr(-,root,root,-)
>> %{_datadir}/doc/%{name}-%{version}/
>>
>>
>>
>> Where
>> doc/%{name}-%{version} contains end user documentation, and
>> doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel contains developer documentation, mainly
>> doxygen generated html.
>>
>> However, that seems to put the developer documentation into the -doc
>> subpackage in addition to the -devel-doc subpackage. Is there a way to
>> do this so that we have a single doc/%{name}-%{version} directory owned
>> by the -doc subpackage, and it contains doc/%{name}-%{version}/devel
>> owned by the -devel-doc subpackage (which of course depends on the -doc
>> subpackage)?
>>
>
> Two choices:
>
> 1) Don't install the user documentation in %install.  Then have this
> files entry:
>
> %files doc
> %doc userdocs/*
>
> 2) Use %exclude:
>
> %files doc
> %{_defaultdocdir}/%{name}-%{version}/
> %exclude %{_defaultdocdir}/%{name}-%{version}/devel/
>
> %exclude throws off rpm's size calculation so it's not the preferred
> method, but it can be easier to implement.

FWIW, this has been fixed since rpm 4.6.0, excludes and duplicate entries 
no longer screw up the size calculation.

 	- Panu -



From berrange at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 08:33:05 2009
From: berrange at redhat.com (Daniel P. Berrange)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:33:05 +0100
Subject: VMI-Support for x86_64 in future?
In-Reply-To: <49E2BE64.8000805@thelounge.net>
References: <49E2BE64.8000805@thelounge.net>
Message-ID: <20090414083304.GG14297@redhat.com>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 06:24:04AM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if its possible to use VMI for x86_64-Fedora-Guests
> I do not find any information about this

Upstream VMI is 32-bit only, and (AFAIK) there is no work, or plans to
make it available for 64-bit guests.

Daniel
-- 
|: Red Hat, Engineering, London   -o-   http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :|
|: http://libvirt.org  -o-  http://virt-manager.org  -o-  http://ovirt.org :|
|: http://autobuild.org       -o-         http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
|: GnuPG: 7D3B9505  -o-  F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505 :|



From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Tue Apr 14 09:05:37 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:05:37 +0300
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <1239608139.4354.16.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<grlogm$tsf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239608139.4354.16.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <200904141205.37579.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>



On Monday 13 April 2009 10:35:39 Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 23:15 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> 
> > > Some contacts had got duplicated for some reason, but still, nice effort.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, as I've been told, duplication of data is an inherent issue
> > with libopensync 0.22, and the main reason why they're working on
> > redesigning everything in 0.3x/0.40. Unfortunately, their redesign is
> > breaking everything at the moment. :-(
> 
> Yes, but it's more of a long-term issue (or if you get an incomplete
> sync - the problem is a 'slow sync' duplicates data). I wouldn't expect
> it as a matter of course on a single-shot test sync. As I said, though,
> it could actually have been duplicated prior to the sync, I didn't think
> to check. I'll do some more extensive testing with various devices in a
> bit.

- In normal use, it will at some point fall into slow sync, sooner or later 
  and create duplicates?. I don't think any user would want that.
- opensync 0.2x cannot detect? the SAME/SIMILAR cases reliably.
- Thus only because of these two issues, (plus hundred two smaller ones) 
  opensync 0.2x is broken, by design, inside the core - regardless of plugins.
- It's useless to ship completely broken (not low Quality, broken) software.
- Fedora 11 will ship them anyway.

Only thing unclear to me is why?


Tuju


? will be solved with capabilities/merger which is still not used by any trunk plugin.
  http://www.opensync.org/wiki/trunk/features/mergerCapabilities
  http://opensync.org/wiki/trunk/features/mergerFormatConversion
? http://www.opensync.org/ticket/883

> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
> http://www.happyassassin.net
-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.
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From david at hlacik.eu  Tue Apr 14 09:22:50 2009
From: david at hlacik.eu (=?ISO-8859-2?B?RGF2aWQgSGzh6Glr?=)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:22:50 +0200
Subject: shared libraries (not working ld.so.conf.d)
In-Reply-To: <cba415ca0904140220w7396dd8ao93997dadabac6166@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cba415ca0904140220w7396dd8ao93997dadabac6166@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cba415ca0904140222i6560f82bq44fdc83f2edf3e1@mail.gmail.com>

Hello guys,

I have patched my own libraries and override locations to them in ld.so.conf.d .

Let's just see an example:

[root at david ld.so.conf.d]# cat /etc/ld.so.conf.d/cairo-lcd-x86_64.conf
/usr/lib64/cairo-lcd


Now , when I will execute ldd to check for shared library dependencies :

1) gnome-terminal

[root at david ~]# ldd /usr/bin/gnome-terminal |grep libcairo
??? libcairo.so.2 => /usr/lib64/cairo-lcd/libcairo.so.2
(0x00000032ef000000) -> OK

this is totally ok and works as expected , but :

2) gimp

[root at david ~]# ldd /usr/bin/gimp |grep libcairo
??? libcairo.so.2 => /usr/lib64/libcairo.so.2 (0x00000032ee800000) ->
Totally WRONG

this is wrong and looks for original library instead as it should.

My question is : What is the cause of this problem? Does gimp and
others uses hard-linked libraries and ld.so.conf is for nothing??

Thanks in advance!
David



From kwizart at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 09:38:31 2009
From: kwizart at gmail.com (Nicolas Chauvet)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:38:31 +0200
Subject: shared libraries (not working ld.so.conf.d)
In-Reply-To: <cba415ca0904140222i6560f82bq44fdc83f2edf3e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cba415ca0904140220w7396dd8ao93997dadabac6166@mail.gmail.com>
	<cba415ca0904140222i6560f82bq44fdc83f2edf3e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e1760170904140238x38881bacj46303c0b53f3f2b3@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/14 David Hl??ik <david at hlacik.eu>:
> Hello guys,
>
> I have patched my own libraries and override locations to them in ld.so.conf.d .
>
> Let's just see an example:
>
> [root at david ld.so.conf.d]# cat /etc/ld.so.conf.d/cairo-lcd-x86_64.conf
> /usr/lib64/cairo-lcd
>
>
> Now , when I will execute ldd to check for shared library dependencies :
>
> 1) gnome-terminal
>
> [root at david ~]# ldd /usr/bin/gnome-terminal |grep libcairo
> ??? libcairo.so.2 => /usr/lib64/cairo-lcd/libcairo.so.2
> (0x00000032ef000000) -> OK
>
> this is totally ok and works as expected , but :
>
> 2) gimp
>
> [root at david ~]# ldd /usr/bin/gimp |grep libcairo
> ??? libcairo.so.2 => /usr/lib64/libcairo.so.2 (0x00000032ee800000) ->
> Totally WRONG
>
> this is wrong and looks for original library instead as it should.
>
> My question is : What is the cause of this problem? Does gimp and
> others uses hard-linked libraries and ld.so.conf is for nothing??
The cause is in gimp...
rpmlint gimp output a lot of harcoded rpath in /usr/lib64 (on lib64 system).

No matter why you need to replace the cairo library... That remains a
separate problem.
Please submit a bug against gimp to be fixed according to the
packaging guideline:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Beware_of_Rpath

Nicolas (kwizart)



From roland at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 09:45:25 2009
From: roland at redhat.com (Roland McGrath)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 02:45:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: shared libraries (not working ld.so.conf.d)
In-Reply-To: David HláÄik's message of  Tuesday, 14 April 2009 11:22:50 +0200 <cba415ca0904140222i6560f82bq44fdc83f2edf3e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cba415ca0904140220w7396dd8ao93997dadabac6166@mail.gmail.com>
	<cba415ca0904140222i6560f82bq44fdc83f2edf3e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090414094525.53D76FC2A8@magilla.sf.frob.com>

> My question is : What is the cause of this problem? Does gimp and
> others uses hard-linked libraries and ld.so.conf is for nothing??

Yes.

$ eu-readelf -d /usr/bin/gimp | grep PATH
  RPATH             Library rpath: [/usr/lib64]
$

I think there is some packager maintainers' page about eliminating bogus
RPATH from package builds, but I don't have the pointer off hand.  The
package maintainer for gimp needs to be pointed at that.


Thanks,
Roland



From psmith at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 14 10:16:44 2009
From: psmith at fedoraproject.org (psmith)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:16:44 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E3D721.6000000@fedoraproject.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<16de708d0904131237x2e5e6cc2o81764098f05e4cc8@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E3D721.6000000@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49E4628C.2090608@fedoraproject.org>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>
>   
>> I'm confused here. He was attempting to restart the entire machine,
>> and instead restarted the X server, and this is considered a
>> significant problem?
>>     
>
> Yes because control alt del calls up the task manager in Windows in
> recent versions and even initiating a reboot, you get a prompt for
> confirmation and applications get time to save data.
>   

well there we have it! another who wants fedora to behave like it's written by m$, and i thought the redmond theme was as close as fedora would get to windows :(


>> That said... when did Ctrl+Alt+Delete stop rebooting? I just tried it
>> and was surprised to see a dialog box instead. I remember using that
>> key combo way back since RH 7.3, I just rarely needed it.
>>     
>
> I don't recall the specifics but it has been that way for a long time now.
>
> Rahul
>
>   



From david at hlacik.eu  Tue Apr 14 11:10:00 2009
From: david at hlacik.eu (=?ISO-8859-2?B?RGF2aWQgSGzh6Glr?=)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:10:00 +0200
Subject: shared libraries (not working ld.so.conf.d)
In-Reply-To: <20090414094525.53D76FC2A8@magilla.sf.frob.com>
References: <cba415ca0904140220w7396dd8ao93997dadabac6166@mail.gmail.com>
	<cba415ca0904140222i6560f82bq44fdc83f2edf3e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090414094525.53D76FC2A8@magilla.sf.frob.com>
Message-ID: <cba415ca0904140410qf80970eg39a6c67185ef43aa@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=495670


Br.

D.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Roland McGrath <roland at redhat.com> wrote:

> > My question is : What is the cause of this problem? Does gimp and
> > others uses hard-linked libraries and ld.so.conf is for nothing??
>
> Yes.
>
> $ eu-readelf -d /usr/bin/gimp | grep PATH
>   RPATH             Library rpath: [/usr/lib64]
> $
>
> I think there is some packager maintainers' page about eliminating bogus
> RPATH from package builds, but I don't have the pointer off hand.  The
> package maintainer for gimp needs to be pointed at that.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Roland
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 14 12:17:18 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:17:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090414 changes
Message-ID: <20090414121718.530DC1B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Tue Apr 14 06:15:04 UTC 2009

New package clearlooks-compact-gnome-theme
        GNOME Desktop theme optimized for small displays
New package cpptest
        A portable and powerful and simple unit testing framework for C++
New package emacs-mmm
        Emacs minor mode allowing different major modes in the same file
New package hmaccalc
        Tools for computing and checking HMAC values for files
New package links
        Web browser running in both graphics and text mode
New package lxmusic
        Lightweight XMMS2 client with simple user interface
New package perl-CSS-Minifier
        Remove unnecessary whitespace from CSS files
New package perl-Devel-FastProf
        Fast perl per-line profiler
New package swami
        MIDI instrument and sound editor
Updated Packages:

GConf2-2.26.0-2.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 2.26.0-2
- Explicit Conflicts: GConf2-dbus (#492636)


ImageMagick-6.5.1.2-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 6.5.1.2-1
- update to 6.5.1-2


aircrack-ng-1.0-0.8.rc3.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Till Maas <opensource at till.name> - 1.0-0.8.rc3
- Update to new release
- Enable patch to make parallel make work on x86_64


alevt-1.6.2-12.fc11
-------------------

anaconda-11.5.0.44-1
--------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Chris Lumens <clumens at redhat.com> - 11.5.0.43-1
- Run programs with LC_ALL=C in case we're parsing output (#492549).
  (clumens)
- A volume group device has a "peSize" attribute (not "pesize"). (dlehman)
- Remove uncommitted new lv from dict on cancel. (dlehman)
- Use the correct value when setting new extent size. (#493753) (dlehman)
- Fix image generation so all ELF binaries have their deps included
  (#495231). (clumens)
- Clean up the code in editLogicalVolume function. (jgranado)
- Setup the disks before partitioning as the nodes are needed. (jgranado)
- Rescan the devices when we are saving a traceback. (jgranado)
- Close file descriptors when an error occurs. (jgranado)
- Aesthetic changes to "editLogicalVolume" function. (jgranado)
- When deallocating a partition also set its disk attribute to None
  (hdegoede)
- Check self.partedPartition not being None before using it (#495077)
  (hdegoede)
- growPartitions: Change op_func (back to) add when an iteration succeeds
  (hdegoede)
- partedPartition can be None while growing partitions (#495076) (hdegoede)

* Mon Apr 13 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 11.5.0.44-1
- Default to SHA512 password encoding algorithm. (dcantrell)
- Handle format combo box not existing (#495288) (dcantrell)


aria2-1.3.1-1.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> - 1.3.1-1
- Upgrade to 1.3.1

* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.1-3
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild

* Fri Dec 05 2008 Micha?? Bentkowski <mr.ecik at gmail.com> - 1.0.1-2
- New version, 1.0.1
- Forgot to add changelog in last release...


aspell-sk-2.01-2.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 J??n ONDREJ (SAL) <ondrejj(at)salstar.sk> - 2.01-2
- update upstream


asymptote-1.70-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1.70-1
- update to 1.70


aubio-0.3.2-6.fc11
------------------
* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.3.2-6
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


audio-entropyd-1.0.5-4.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Mar 25 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1.0.5-4
- port from OSS to ALSA


avahi-0.6.25-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> - 0.6.25-1
- New upstream release


bindfs-1.8.3-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Till Maas <opensource at till.name> - 1.8.3-1
- Update to new upstream release


bottlerocket-0.04c-5.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.04c-5
- Rebuilt

* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.04c-4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


dash-0.5.5.1-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> - 0.5.5.1
- 0.5.5.1


db4o-6.1-6.fc11
---------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 6.1-6
- Re-enable ppc


deskbar-applet-2.26.0-3.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Michel Salim <salimma at fedoraproject.org> - 2.26.0-3
- Patch for a multiple inheritance bug on 64-bit platforms


dhcp-4.1.0-16.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 12:4.1.0-16
- Correct %post problems in dhclient package (#495361)
- Read hooks scripts from /etc/dhcp (#495361)
- Update to latest ldap-for-dhcp


empathy-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/empathy/2.26/empathy-2.26.1.news


eog-2.26.1-1.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/eog/2.26/eog-2.26.1.news


esc-1.0.1-14.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.1-14
- Added a patch to correct the wrong elif preprocessor statement

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.1-13
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


evolution-data-server-2.26.1-1.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1.fc11
- Update to 2.26.1


file-roller-2.26.1-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/file-roller/2.26/file-roller-2.26.1.news


gallery2-2.3-5.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 2.3-5
- Remove .jar files and build from source BZ464566.
- Modify source to remove two non-redistutable .jar files.
- Dropped panorama module as a result.
- Fix symlink/dir issues, BZ 484240.


gaupol-0.14-1.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Lucian Langa <cooly at gnome.eu.org> - 0.14-1
- fix Source url
- new upstream release


gdb-6.8.50.20090302-18.fc11
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> - 6.8.50.20090302-16
- enable gdbserver package on sparc64

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jan Kratochvil <jan.kratochvil at redhat.com> - 6.8.50.20090302-17
- Archer update to the snapshot: 7c250ce99c90cf6097e2ec55ea0f205830979cee
- Archer backport: c14d9ab7eef43281b2052c885f89d2db96fb5f8e
  - Revert a change regressing: gdb.objc/basicclass.exp
- Archer backport: ebd649b96e61a1fb481801b65d827bca998c6633
                 + 1f080e897996d60ab7fde20423e2947512115667
		 + 1948198702b51b31d79793fc49434b529b4e245f
		 + e107fb9687bb1e7f74170aa3d19c4a8f6edbb10f
		 + 1e012c996e121cb35053d239a46bd5dc65b0ce60
  - Update the Python API from upstream.
- Archer backport: d3c83ad5ec9f7672b87af9ad29279f459e53da11
  - Fix a Python branch crash.

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jan Kratochvil <jan.kratochvil at redhat.com> - 6.8.50.20090302-18
- Archer update to the snapshot: d1fee5066408a09423621d1ebc64e6d3e248ed08
- Archer backport: 4854339f75bdaf4b228fc35579bddbb2a1fecdc1
  - Fix Python FrameIterator.


gdm-2.26.0-8.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Ray Strode <rstrode at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.0-8
- Add less boring multistack patch for testing


gedit-2.26.1-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gedit/2.26/gedit-2.26.1.news


giflib-4.1.6-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 4.1.6-1
- update to 4.1.6


giggle-0.4.91-1.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> - 0.4.91-1
- Update to 0.4.91


gnome-desktop-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-desktop/2.26/gnome-desktop-2.26.1.news


gnome-games-2.26.1-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-games/2.26/gnome-games-2.26.1.news


gnome-menus-2.26.1-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-menus/2.26/gnome-menus-2.26.1.news


gnome-panel-2.26.0-2.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Handle emblemed icons (GNOME #578859)


gnome-screensaver-2.26.1-1.fc11
-------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-screensaver/2.26/gnome-screensaver-2.26.1.news


gnome-system-monitor-2.26.1-1.fc11
----------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-system-monitor/2.26/gnome-system-monitor-2.26.1.news


gnome-terminal-2.26.1-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-terminal/2.26/gnome-terminal-2.26.1.news


gnome-themes-2.26.1-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-themes/2.26/gnome-themes-2.26.1.news


gnumeric-1.8.4-2.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Huzaifa Sidhpurwala <huzaifas at redhat.com> 1:1.8.4-2
- Resolved rhbz #495314


gpodder-0.15.2-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 - 0.15.2-1 jpaleta <jspaleta AT fedoraproject DOT org>
- new upstream point release with multiple bug fixes and updates translations.


gtk2-engines-2.18.1-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.18.1-1
- Update to 2.18.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gtk-engines/2.18/gtk-engines-2.18.1.news


gtkhtml3-3.26.1-1.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 3.26.1-1.fc11
- Update to 3.26.1


gvfs-1.2.2-2.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1.2.2-1
- Update to 1.2.2
- Allow eject even on non-ejectable devices

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Alexander Larsson <alexl at redhat.com> - 1.2.2-2
- Add ssh-auth-sock patch from svn


hunspell-mt-0.20020708-3.fc11
-----------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Caolan McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 0.20020708-3
- spurious extra .aff file packaged


hunspell-sv-1.30-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Caolan McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 1.30-1
- latest version


i2c-tools-3.0.2-3.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 3.0.2-3
- mv /etc/modprobe.d/i2c-dev /etc/modprobe.d/i2c-dev.conf (#495455)


ibus-1.1.0.20090413-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Huang Peng <shawn.p.huang at gmail.com> - 1.1.0.20090413-1
- Update to ibus-1.1.0.20090413.
- Fix crash when restart the ibus-daemon
- Add some translations.


imsettings-0.106.2-2.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Akira TAGOH <tagoh at redhat.com> - 0.106.2-2
- Disable applet by default.


jabbim-0.5-0.5.svn20090408.fc11
-------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Michal Schmidt <mschmidt at redhat.com> - 0.5-0.5.svn20090408
- Update to SVN rev. 4103:
  - bugfixes for filetransfer, uniemoticons, logging
  - faster loading of avatars after login
- Install only the addons likely to be included in 0.5 final release.
- Hardcode the SVN revision into self.version.
- Prefer %global over %define.


kernel-2.6.29.1-70.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com>
- Remove back-port iwlwifi rfkill while device down patches (#495003)

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Kyle McMartin <kyle at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-70
- merge alsa fixes from wwoods:
  alsa-hda-dont-reset-BDL-unnecessarily.patch
  alsa-dont-reset-stream-at-each-prepare-callb.patch
  alsa-hda_intel-fix-unexpected-ring-buffer-positio.patch
  alsa-pcm-midlevel-add-more-strict-buffer-position.patch
    bbf6ad13, fa00e046 from alsa-kernel/master (and deps)


koules-1.4-7.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> 1.4-7
- Debian apparently fixed shm more sanely than me
- Import bunch of Debian fixes


latexmk-4.05-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jerry James <loganjerry at gmail.com> - 4.05-1
- Update to 4.05 to correct problems when running latex and pdflatex on the
  same source file.


leonidas-backgrounds-10.93.1-1.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Martin Sourada <mso at fedoraproejct.org> - 10.93.1-1
- Updated lion backgrounds
- Don't display the lion for single screens
- Use just leonidas-1-noon.png for the kdm version, no need to add the '-simple'
  suffix


libatasmart-0.10-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.10-1
- New upstream release


libcanberra-0.12-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.12-1
- New version 0.12


libgtop2-2.26.1-1.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/libgtop/2.26/libgtop-2.26.1.news


libgweather-2.26.1-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/libgweather/2.26/libgweather-2.26.1.news


libiptcdata-1.0.3-3.fc11
------------------------
* Sun Apr 12 2009 David Moore <dcm at acm.org> 1.0.3-1
- New upstream version
- Added translation to file list

* Sun Apr 12 2009 David Moore <dcm at acm.org> 1.0.3-2
- Added 'Requires: gtk-doc' and 'BuildRequires: libtool' and gettext

* Sun Apr 12 2009 David Moore <dcm at acm.org> 1.0.3-3
- Added 'BuildRequires: gtk-doc'


libmng-1.0.10-1.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1.0.10-1
- update to 1.0.10


libnice-0.0.6-1.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org> - 0.0.6-1
- Update to 0.0.6.


libsoup-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/libsoup/2.26/libsoup-2.26.1.changes


libunwind-0.99-0.9.20090413betagitb483ea3f.fc11
-----------------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jan Kratochvil <jan.kratochvil at redhat.com> - 0.99-0.9.20090413betagitb483ea3f
- Rebase the package on the upstream variant: http://www.nongnu.org/libunwind/
  - Drop the patch libunwind-snap-070224-frysk20070405cvs.patch
    as even frysk-0.4-8.fc11 still has this library bundled statically.
- Disable the testsuite by default during the build.
  - It should be run separately as it crashes some ia64 kernels.
  - Drop the patch libunwind-snap-070224-orphanripper.patch.
- Drop the patch libunwind-snap-070224-dprintf-vs-stdio.h as no longer needed.
- Drop libunwind-snap-070224-multilib-rh342451.patch as accepted upstream.
- Fix and enable ppc (ppc32) arch.


libvoikko-2.1-0.4.rc3.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi> - 2.1-0.4.rc3
- 2.1rc3, remove patch


libwnck-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/libwnck/2.26/libwnck-2.26.1.news


libxcb-1.2-3.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 07 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.2-3
- libxcb-1.2-to-git-6e2e87d.patch: Various updates from git, XID generation
  being the most important.


mono-2.4-15.1.RC1.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Toshio Kuratomi <toshio at fedoraproject.org> - 2.4-14
- Remove bootstrap changes as it's not necessary.
- remove ppc64 as we only had ppc before.
- Correct release number format
- Fix Source and URL.

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Toshio Kuratomi <toshio at fedoraproject.org> - 2.4-15
- Revert to RC1 with changes to the spec file such as enabling moonlight so
  that we have a working build for F11.

* Fri Apr 10 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> - 2.4-13.2
- Re-enable PPC and PPC64
- sub point build for scratch build and bootstrap

* Mon Apr 06 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> - 2.4-13.1
- Remove ppc support
- moonlight parts are now in their own subpackage

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Xavier Lamien <lxtnow at gmail.com> - 2.4-13
- Enable moonlight support.

* Thu Mar 26 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-12
- Full 2.4 release

* Wed Mar 18 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-11.RC3
- Bump to RC3

* Tue Mar 10 2009 Paul F. Johnson <paul at all-the-johnsons.co.uk> 2.4-10.RC2
- Bump to RC2


mono-addins-0.4-6.20091702svn127062.1.fc11
------------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 0.4-6.20091702svn127062.1
- re-enable ppc


mono-basic-2.4-5.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 2.4-5
- Re-enable ppc
- Fix release numbering


monotorrent-0.72-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 0.72-2
- re-enable ppc


nautilus-2.26.2-1.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Alexander Larsson <alexl at redhat.com> - 2.26.2-1
- Update to 2.26.2


nfs-utils-lib-1.1.4-5.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Steve Dickson <steved at redhat.com> 1.1.4-5
- Moved the .pc files into the -devel rpm (bz 489173)


nntpgrab-0.4.90-3.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Erik van Pienbroek <info at nntpgrab.nl> - 0.4.90-3
- Added a patch to prevent a possible deadlock (upstream SVN rev #1264)
- Added a patch to fix the removal of collections (upstream SVN rev #1260)
- Added BR: gail-devel for F9 (RHBZ #491785)


oflb-riordonfancy-fonts-4-2
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet+rpm at gmail.com> 4-2
- Rebuild for stronger hashes


openoffice.org-voikko-3.1-0.2.rc2.fc11
--------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi> - 3.1-0.2.rc2
- New release candidate


openswan-2.6.21-2.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Avesh Agarwal <avagarwa at redhat.com> - 2.6.21-2
- Applied patch to support NSS, currently disabled due to
  dependency on rh bz #491693
- The patch also supports fips check integrity 
   (requires fipscheck-devel library)


orca-2.26.1-1.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/orca/2.26/orca-2.26.1.news


pam_mount-1.22-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Till Maas <opensource at till.name> - 1.22-1
- Update to new release
- Support remount (Red Hat Bugzilla: #492347)
- Show more correct mount options in /etc/mtab
- backport fix against uninitialized value


pango-1.24.1-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1.24.1-1
- Update to 1.24.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/pango/1.24/pango-1.24.1.news


pavucontrol-0.9.8-1.fc11
------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.9.8-1
- New upstream release 0.9.8


pdsh-2.18-1.fc11
----------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 2.18-1
- update to 2.18


perl-Finance-YahooQuote-0.22-1.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> - 0.22-1
- 0.22


perl-IO-Socket-INET6-2.56-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> - 2.56-1
- 2.56


perl-KinoSearch-0.165-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 0.165-1
- Upstream applied our PowerPC patch


perl-Socket6-0.23-1.fc11
------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> - 0.23-1
- 0.23


pinot-0.93-1.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Adel Gadllah <adel.gadllah at gmail.com> 0.93-1
- Update to 0.93
- Drop gcc patch, now upstream


pulseaudio-0.9.15-10.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.9.15-10
- Final 0.9.15 release


pungi-2.0.14-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 2.0.14-1
- Fix package excludes in kickstart files
- Correctly account for ppc bootable isofs overhead
- Wire in support for composing 'full' trees with all subpackages


purple-facebookchat-1.50-1.fc11
-------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Ismael Olea <ismael at olea.org> 1.50-1
- updating to 1.50


pyparted-2.0.11-1.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 2.0.11-1
- Upgrade to pyparted-2.0.11


python-fedora-0.3.12-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Mar 19 2009 Toshio Kuratomi <toshio at fedoraproject.org> - 0.3.12-1
- Bugfix and cleanup release.


python-myghty-1.1-9.fc11
------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Toshio Kuratomi <toshio at fedoraproject.org> - 1.1-9
- Fix for building with python2.6

* Thu Feb 26 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.1-8
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


python-netaddr-0.6.2-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 John Eckersberg <jeckersb at redhat.com> - 0.6.2-1
- New upstream bugfix release


python-twyt-0.9.2-1.fc11
------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Adam Miller <maxamillion [AT] gmail.com> - 0.9.2-1
- New upstream release


rsyslog-3.21.11-1.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Tomas Heinrich <theinric at redhat.com> 3.21.11-1
- upgrade


seahorse-plugins-2.26.1-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/seahorse-plugins/2.26/seahorse-plugins-2.26.1.news


setroubleshoot-plugins-2.0.16-1.fc11
------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 <dwalsh at redhat.com> - 2.0.16-1
- Change priority on restorecon plugin to happen before public_content


shed-1.15-1.fc11
----------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Adam Miller <maxamillion [AT] gmail.com> - 1.15-1
- New upstream release.


solfege-3.14.2-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 3.14.2-1
- New upstream release
- No-X patch merged upstream, remove it.


srm-1.2.9-4.fc11
----------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> - 1.2.9-4
- Changed include order of ext3_fs.h and fs.h for gcc 4.4 builds

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.2.9-3
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


sssd-0.3.1-1.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Simo Sorce <ssorce at redhat.com> - 0.3.0-1
- Version 0.3.0
- Provides file based configuration and lots of improvements

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Simo Sorce <ssorce at redhat.com> - 0.3.0-2
- Try to fix build adding automake as an explicit BuildRequire
- Add also a couple of last minute patches from upstream

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Simo Sorce <ssorce at redhat.com> - 0.3.1-1
- Version 0.3.1
- includes previous release patches


system-config-firewall-1.2.15-1.fc11
------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Thomas Woerner <twoerner at redhat.com> 1.2.15-1
- fixed icon reference in desktop file (rhbz#493674)
- fixed po/POTFILES.in
- updated translations: as, bn_IN, el, fi, gu, hi, hu, it, kn, ko, mai, ml, mr, or, pa, pt, ru, sk, sv, ta, te, zh_TW


system-config-kdump-1.0.14-6.fc11
---------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 1.0.14-6
- Improve error handling when applying settings


tomboy-0.14.1-1.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.14.1-1
- Update to 0.14.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/tomboy/0.14/tomboy-0.14.1.news


tzdata-2009f-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Petr Machata <pmachata at redhat.com> - 2009e-2
- Pakistan will observe DST between 2009-04-15 and (probably) 2009-11-01

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Petr Machata <pmachata at redhat.com> - 2009e-3
- Bump up for rebuild

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Petr Machata <pmachata at redhat.com> - 2009f-1
- Upstream 2009f
  - Pakistan will observe DST between 2009-04-15 and (probably) 2009-11-01
- Drop Pakistan patch

* Mon Apr 06 2009 Petr Machata <pmachata at redhat.com> - 2009e-1
- Upstream 2009e
  - Historical changes for Jordan
  - Palestine will start DST on 2009-03-26 and end 2009-09-27
- Egypt ends DST on 2009-09-24


ucarp-1.5-1.fc11
----------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 1.5-1
- Update to 1.5 BZ 458767.
- Added LSB header to init script, BZ 247082.
- New upstream should address BZ 427495, 449266, 455394.


vinagre-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/vinagre/2.26/vinagre-2.26.1.news


vino-2.26.1-1.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/vino/2.26/vino-2.26.1.news


vte-0.20.1-1.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> 0.20.1-1
- Update to 2.20.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/vte/0.20/vte-0.20.1.news


xfce4-power-manager-0.8.0-0.2.beta1.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.0-0.2.beta1
- Add xfpm-button-hal.patch by Mike Massonnet

* Sun Apr 12 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.0-0.1.beta1
- Update to 0.8.0beta1

* Thu Apr 09 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.0-0.1.alpha2
- Update to 0.8.0alpha2

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.0-0.1.alpha
- Update to 0.8.0alpha


xfdesktop-4.6.0-4.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 4.6.0-4
- Exclude gnome-default-applications from menu to avoid duplicates (#488558)


xfwm4-4.6.0-2.fc11
------------------
* Sat Feb 28 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 4.6.0-2
- Fix directory ownership problems
- Require xfce4-doc


xorg-x11-drv-intel-2.6.99.902-3.fc11
------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 2.6.99.902-3
- Update to today's git snapshot.


xorg-x11-drv-nouveau-0.0.12-26.20090413git7100c06.fc11
------------------------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 0.0.12-26.20090413git7100c06
- nouveau-fedora.patch: split out into indivdual functionality
- nv50: disable acceleration on NVAx chipsets, it won't work properly yet
- drop nouveau-eedid.patch, it's upstream now


xorg-x11-drv-synaptics-1.1.0-2.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> 1.1.0-2
- synaptics-1.1.0-synclient-64.patch: fix 64-bit integer issues with
  synclient (#494766)


xorg-x11-server-1.6.0-20.fc11
-----------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.6.0-20
- Obsolete a bunch of input drivers. (#493221)


xorg-x11-xfs-1.0.5-5.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.0.5-5
- xfs.init: Fix mkdir race (#492517)


xqilla-2.1.3-0.6.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> 2.1.3-0.6
- Added a few #include lines needed to build properly with g++ 4.4

* Thu Feb 26 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 2.1.3-0.5
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


xqilla10-1.0.2-6.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.2-6
- Added a few #include lines needed to build properly with g++ 4.4

* Thu Feb 26 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.2-5.1
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


xsp-2.4-8.fc11
--------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 2.4-8
- Re-enable ppc
- Fix release numbering


Summary:
Added Packages: 9
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 118






Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice





From limb at jcomserv.net  Tue Apr 14 12:31:38 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 07:31:38 -0500
Subject: Koji issues?
Message-ID: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net>

My builds for gallery2 keep failing, with mock buildroot errors.  Is 
something up, or is this freeze-related?

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1297273&name=root.log

-J

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From rakesh.pandit at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 13:00:45 2009
From: rakesh.pandit at gmail.com (Rakesh Pandit)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:30:45 +0530
Subject: Koji issues?
In-Reply-To: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net>
References: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <b401d2530904140600v1b3a81a1xfda15ef9530ac3a0@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/14 Jon Ciesla :
> My builds for gallery2 keep failing, with mock buildroot errors. ?Is
> something up, or is this freeze-related?
>
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1297273&name=root.log
>
> -J
>

Same here:

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1297271

root.log reads:

DEBUG util.py:280:  Executing command: /usr/sbin/useradd -o -m -u 101
-g 102 -d /builddir -n mockbuild
DEBUG util.py:256:  /usr/sbin/useradd: invalid option -- 'n'

Looks like koji issue ? Not sure.

--
Regards,
Rakesh Pandit



From mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp  Tue Apr 14 13:01:50 2009
From: mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Mamoru Tasaka)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:01:50 +0900
Subject: Koji issues?
In-Reply-To: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net>
References: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <49E4893E.2000201@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>

Jon Ciesla wrote, at 04/14/2009 09:31 PM +9:00:
> My builds for gallery2 keep failing, with mock buildroot errors.  Is 
> something up, or is this freeze-related?
> 
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1297273&name=root.log
> 
> -J

(First of all, it is appreciated if you post the URL of the task,
 not of root.log:
 http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1297273 )

Then:
BuildrootError: could not init mock buildroot, mock exited with status 2; see root.log for more information

DEBUG util.py:280:  Executing command: /usr/sbin/useradd -o -m -u 101 -g 102 -d /builddir -n mockbuild
DEBUG util.py:256:  /usr/sbin/useradd: invalid option -- 'n'
DEBUG util.py:319:  Child returncode was: 2
DEBUG util.py:98:  kill orphans

Looks like newly imported shadow-utils-4.1.3-1.fc11 no longer accept
"-n" option. 
I don't know if this is a bug in shadow-utils or mock
as "man useradd" does not show "-n" option (even in shadow-utils-4.1.2-13.fc11),
however such change should not occur anyway as F-11 freeze is very near:

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg00761.html

Regards,
Mamoru



From mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp  Tue Apr 14 13:06:02 2009
From: mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Mamoru Tasaka)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:06:02 +0900
Subject: Koji issues?
In-Reply-To: <49E4893E.2000201@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
References: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net> <49E4893E.2000201@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <49E48A3A.1030008@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>

Mamoru Tasaka wrote, at 04/14/2009 10:01 PM +9:00:
> Looks like newly imported shadow-utils-4.1.3-1.fc11 no longer accept
> "-n" option. 

Should be read as "Looks like 'useradd' in newly imported shadow-utils
4.1.3-1.fc11 no longer accepts '-n' option".

> I don't know if this is a bug in shadow-utils or mock
> as "man useradd" does not show "-n" option (even in 
> shadow-utils-4.1.2-13.fc11),
> however such change should not occur anyway as F-11 freeze is very near:
> 
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg00761.html
> 
> Regards,
> Mamoru




From limb at jcomserv.net  Tue Apr 14 13:22:05 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:22:05 -0500
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <49E3785B.2020603@jcomserv.net>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>	<49E37684.5070709@jcomserv.net>	<49E3768D.30304@redhat.com>	<49E377BB.8090606@jcomserv.net>	<49E377A1.8070209@redhat.com>
	<49E3785B.2020603@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <49E48DFD.90909@jcomserv.net>

Jon Ciesla wrote:
> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>> On 04/13/2009 01:34 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>  
>>> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>>    
>>>> On 04/13/2009 01:29 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>      
>>>>> nmurray is co-maintainer of  the last 3.  Might be a good candidate?
>>>>>             
>>>> In a wholly related coincidence, nmurray is no longer interested in
>>>> maintaining his Fedora packages and has orphaned them. ;)
>>>>
>>>> ~spot
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> Bah!  :)  I'm doing the libmng Merge Review.  If I take ownership, 
>>> can I
>>> finish it myself?
>>>     
>>
>> Umm... no, but I will volunteer to finish it out in that case.
>>
>> ~spot
>>
>>   
> I thought not. :) If no one steps forward in the near future, I'll go 
> that route.
>
I've taken libmng and funionfs.  Reassigned Merge Review for libmng to Spot.

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From nathanael at gnat.ca  Tue Apr 14 13:54:45 2009
From: nathanael at gnat.ca (Nathanael D. Noblet)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 07:54:45 -0600
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <200904141205.37579.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>	<grlogm$tsf$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239608139.4354.16.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904141205.37579.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <49E495A5.4020408@gnat.ca>

Juha Tuomala wrote:

> - In normal use, it will at some point fall into slow sync, sooner or later
> and create duplicates?. I don't think any user would want that.
> - opensync 0.2x cannot detect? the SAME/SIMILAR cases reliably.
> - Thus only because of these two issues, (plus hundred two smaller ones)
> opensync 0.2x is broken, by design, inside the core - regardless of plugins.
> - It's useless to ship completely broken (not low Quality, broken) software.
> - Fedora 11 will ship them anyway.
> 
> 
> Only thing unclear to me is why?

Only 0.22 even *works*, the upstream developers recommend 0.22, 0.3-0.4 
doesn't.

-- 
Nathanael d. Noblet
T: 403.875.4613



From dcbw at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 14:37:14 2009
From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:37:14 -0400
Subject: NetworkManager - Can not store wireless pass phrase
In-Reply-To: <49DF397D.8080700@kiewel-online.ch>
References: <49D3BD2C.3090203@kiewel-online.ch>
	<1238679590.3475.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49D4C27B.20604@kiewel-online.ch>
	<1239048563.28824.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DF397D.8080700@kiewel-online.ch>
Message-ID: <1239719834.7240.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-10 at 14:20 +0200, Uwe Kiewel wrote:
> Dan Williams wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 15:49 +0200, Uwe Kiewel wrote:
> >> Julian Aloofi wrote:
> >>> In general it should save your password automatically (I assume you use
> >>> Fedora 10). 
> >> Oh, my fault: It's Rawhide :-)
> >>
> >>> Maybe you should delete your WLAN from the connection list,
> >>> connect, enter your password and just reboot and see whether it worked
> >>> automatically.
> >> I have had also this idea, but it didn't help.
> > 
> > Did you ever deny nm-applet or nm-connection-editor access to the Gnome
> > Keyring? 
> 
> Should I?
> I only did the procedure as described below. (selecting my wlan in nm's
> wlan-list. I never have been prompted for keyring manager or such
> applications.
> 
> 
> > Run 'gnome-keyring-manager' or 'seahorse' ('yum install
> > gnome-keyring-manager seahorse' if you don't have them installed) and
> > see if nm-applet and nm-connection-editor has access to the key in
> > question.
> 
> I will give this procedure a try :-)
> 
> > 
> > If all else fails, you can use the atom-bomb approach and 'rm -rf
> > ~/.gnome2/keyrings' and then try to set the passphrase in
> > nm-connection-editor again.
> 
> I do *not* have this file.

Odd, that means you may not have gnome-keyring installed.  Are you using
the gnome applet, or the KDE applet with KDE?

Dan




From james at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 14 14:59:35 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:59:35 -0400
Subject: review request for libpst
In-Reply-To: <1239337194.9142.5.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
References: <1239247825.24457.26.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409103428.0c9c8589@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDBAB1.8090602@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409115205.0b011685@faldor.intranet>
	<49DDCCDF.2080405@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<20090409124747.23261913@faldor.intranet>
	<1239296913.26592.29.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<20090409204716.2be21512@faldor.intranet>
	<1239307514.26592.69.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
	<grlur3$h44$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239337194.9142.5.camel@ns.five-ten-sg.com>
Message-ID: <1239721175.29768.15.camel@code.and.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 21:19 -0700, Carl Byington wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> > 3. version-marked symbol: foo at LIBBAR_2_1_0 (and no other foo@*
> > symbol)
> >   * conservative use of symbol versioning
> >   * contains version information which RPM can use for automatic deps
> >   * programs using foo will have a libbar.so.2(LIBBAR_2_1_0) autodep
> >   * on OSes without symbol versioning, just foo (as in 1.) will be
> > used
> >   * as in 1., the function foo must remain binary compatible
> > The solution 3. is what I'm suggesting to use. RPM autodeps would be
> > much
> > safer if all upstream projects used that.
> 
> I am both the upstream and the packager for this project, and I am
> willing to make changes (well, within reason) to make it fit nicely
> into Fedora. Do you have an example of a fedora package that uses this
> approach so I can study it, or is there a reference with a bit more
> detail of exactly how to create these versioned symbols and the rules
> to be followed when deciding which symbols need to be versioned?

 You can use "yum provides 'lib*(*_*)'" to find a few different
packages, one simplish one I know of is "ustr" (doesn't use autotools).

-- 
James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>
Fedora



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Tue Apr 14 14:52:03 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:52:03 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E3AAF0.3090507@ij.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E3AAF0.3090507@ij.net>
Message-ID: <49E4A313.5050402@freenet.de>

Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2009/04/13 13:32 (GMT-0530) Rahul Sundaram composed:
> 
>> Regardless of which default setting you prefer, the clear evidence is
>> that people do end up doing it accidentally.
> 
> I prefer to think no three key combination can be struck by accident, but
> rather only by incompetence of keyboard design and/or user.
I think, the standard situation to "accidentally" hit "ctrl-alt-bs" is 
when people start hammering their keyboard with random hits in 
situations of "stuck systems"/"systems running wild" and when
actually wanting to press "clrl-alt-del".

Makes me wonder, if they start "hammering their keyboard", because x has 
already raped "clt-alt-del" ;)


> There's a limit
> to how far anyone or anything can go to prevent "accidents".
Yes, you'll alway find somebody who will try to dry a cat in microwave 
or lets his kids play with explosives.

Ralf



From limb at jcomserv.net  Tue Apr 14 15:10:18 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:10:18 -0500
Subject: Koji issues?
In-Reply-To: <49E4893E.2000201@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
References: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net> <49E4893E.2000201@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <49E4A75A.4030905@jcomserv.net>

Mamoru Tasaka wrote:
> Jon Ciesla wrote, at 04/14/2009 09:31 PM +9:00:
>> My builds for gallery2 keep failing, with mock buildroot errors.  Is 
>> something up, or is this freeze-related?
>>
>> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1297273&name=root.log
>>
>> -J
>
> (First of all, it is appreciated if you post the URL of the task,
> not of root.log:
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1297273 )
Whoops, sorry.

> Then:
> BuildrootError: could not init mock buildroot, mock exited with status 
> 2; see root.log for more information
>
> DEBUG util.py:280:  Executing command: /usr/sbin/useradd -o -m -u 101 
> -g 102 -d /builddir -n mockbuild
> DEBUG util.py:256:  /usr/sbin/useradd: invalid option -- 'n'
> DEBUG util.py:319:  Child returncode was: 2
> DEBUG util.py:98:  kill orphans
>
> Looks like newly imported shadow-utils-4.1.3-1.fc11 no longer accept
> "-n" option. I don't know if this is a bug in shadow-utils or mock
> as "man useradd" does not show "-n" option (even in 
> shadow-utils-4.1.2-13.fc11),
> however such change should not occur anyway as F-11 freeze is very near:
>
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg00761.html 
>
>
> Regards,
> Mamoru
>
Odd, my libmng build succeeded, but when I retried gallery2 it failed:
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1297619
This worked locally on F-10 and in rawhide mock.

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 15:39:03 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:39:03 -0400
Subject: [Guidelines Change] Changes to the Packaging Guidelines
Message-ID: <49E4AE17.6050905@redhat.com>

As usual, the Fedora Packaging Committee has been busy improving the
Fedora Packaging Guidelines.

Specifically:

The Packaging Guidelines now explicitly permit desktop files to be
generated inside a spec file (previously, this was implicitly acceptable):
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#.desktop_file_creation

The Packaging Guidelines have a new section covering Explicit Requires.
They should be avoided in Fedora packages except when absolutely necessary.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Explicit_Requires

The Packaging Guidelines have a new section covering Symlinks. There are
two types of Symlinks, Absolute and Relative. Neither is required,
packagers should use their own best judgement when determining which to
use in their package.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Symlinks

The Packaging Guidelines have a new section covering the use of %global
over %define. Whenever possible, Fedora packages should use %global.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#.25global_preferred_over_.25define

The Packaging Guidelines have a new section covering the Use of Epochs.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Use_of_Epochs

The Packaging Guidelines have been updated to clarify the section on
Duplicate Files. A Fedora package must not list a file more than once in
the spec file's %files listings. If you think your package is a valid
exception to this, please bring it to the attention of the Packaging
Committee so they can improve on this Guideline.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Duplicate_Files

The SourceURL section of the Packaging Guidelines has a new subsection
on handling Troublesome URLs:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:SourceURL#Troublesome_URLs

The Packaging Naming Guidelines has added an exception for Documentation
Packages to embed the OS version in the name. Note: Packages wishing to
leverage this exception will need to get explicit approval from the
Fedora Documentation Project.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:NamingGuidelines#Documentation_Packages_with_Embedded_OS_versioning

The Scriptlet Snippets page section on Icon Cache handling was updated:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/ScriptletSnippets#Icon_Cache

The Haskell Guidelines were updated:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Haskell

The PHP Guidelines were updated to handle Channel packages:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:PHP

These guidelines (and changes) were approved by the Fedora Packaging
Committee (FPC) and ratified by FESCo.

Many thanks to Remi Collet, Yaakov Nemoy, Lubomir Rintel, and all
of the members of the FPC and FESCo, for assisting in drafting,
refining, and
passing these guidelines.

As a reminder: The Fedora Packaging Guidelines are living documents! If you
find something missing, incorrect, or in need of revision, you can
suggest a draft change. The procedure for this is documented here:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Committee#GuidelineChangeProcedure

Thanks,

~spot

_______________________________________________
Fedora-devel-announce mailing list
Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce



From tomek at pipebreaker.pl  Tue Apr 14 15:44:45 2009
From: tomek at pipebreaker.pl (Tomasz Torcz)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:44:45 +0200
Subject: block-device-added event for upstart not emitted
Message-ID: <20090414154445.GA10951@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>



 Hi list,

  while packaging hdapsd I've created upstart script reacting on
block-device-added event, as I found over the internet that this
is event should be emitted. But on Fedora rawhide it isn't. I
believe someting like following is missing from udev rules:

ACTION=="add",    SUBSYSTEM=="block", KERNEL=="*[!0-9]", 
RUN="/usr/sbin/initctl emit block-device-added %k -eDEVNAME"

  Is this deliberate omission, just bug, or is list of common events not
yet established?

-- 
Tomasz Torcz               "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station
xmpp: zdzichubg at chrome.pl    wagon filled with backup tapes." -- Jim Gray

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From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 15:48:47 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:48:47 -0700
Subject: Koji issues?
In-Reply-To: <49E48A3A.1030008@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
References: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net> <49E4893E.2000201@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<49E48A3A.1030008@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1239724127.3689.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 22:06 +0900, Mamoru Tasaka wrote:
> 
> Mamoru Tasaka wrote, at 04/14/2009 10:01 PM +9:00:
> > Looks like newly imported shadow-utils-4.1.3-1.fc11 no longer accept
> > "-n" option. 
> 
> Should be read as "Looks like 'useradd' in newly imported shadow-utils
> 4.1.3-1.fc11 no longer accepts '-n' option".

Why the hell is a change like that being made in a package this close to
the final devel freeze?  I'm of a strong opinion to untag that build.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From mitr at volny.cz  Tue Apr 14 15:51:18 2009
From: mitr at volny.cz (Miloslav =?UTF-8?Q?Trma=C4=8D?=)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:51:18 +0200
Subject: Koji issues?
In-Reply-To: <1239724127.3689.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net> <49E4893E.2000201@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<49E48A3A.1030008@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<1239724127.3689.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239724278.3523.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Jesse Keating p??e v ?t 14. 04. 2009 v 08:48 -0700:
> On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 22:06 +0900, Mamoru Tasaka wrote:
> > 
> > Mamoru Tasaka wrote, at 04/14/2009 10:01 PM +9:00:
> > > Looks like newly imported shadow-utils-4.1.3-1.fc11 no longer accept
> > > "-n" option. 
> > 
> > Should be read as "Looks like 'useradd' in newly imported shadow-utils
> > 4.1.3-1.fc11 no longer accepts '-n' option".
> 
> Why the hell is a change like that being made in a package this close to
> the final devel freeze?  I'm of a strong opinion to untag that build.
https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/1455
	Mirek



From paul at city-fan.org  Tue Apr 14 15:52:15 2009
From: paul at city-fan.org (Paul Howarth)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:52:15 +0100
Subject: rpms/proftpd/devel proftpd.spec,1.45,1.46
In-Reply-To: <20090409182513.F404A7001C@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090409182513.F404A7001C@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E4B12F.6070806@city-fan.org>

Matthias Saou wrote:
> @@ -25,9 +25,9 @@
>  BuildRequires: openssl-devel, krb5-devel, libacl-devel
>  BuildRequires: zlib-devel
>  # On RHEL (up to 5 included), the devel part was still in tcp_wrappers
> -%if 0%{?rhel} <= 5
> +# We'll need to find a better way to do this once RHEL6 comes out
>  BuildRequires: tcp_wrappers
> -%else
> +%if 0%{?fedora:1}
>  BuildRequires: tcp_wrappers-devel
>  %endif
>  BuildRequires: openldap-devel

A "better way" that I use is:

BuildRequires: /usr/include/tcpd.h

Works everywhere.

Cheers, Paul.



From tgl at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 15:59:52 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:59:52 -0400
Subject: Koji issues? 
In-Reply-To: <1239724127.3689.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net> <49E4893E.2000201@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<49E48A3A.1030008@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<1239724127.3689.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <12253.1239724792@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 22:06 +0900, Mamoru Tasaka wrote:
>> Should be read as "Looks like 'useradd' in newly imported shadow-utils
>> 4.1.3-1.fc11 no longer accepts '-n' option".

> Why the hell is a change like that being made in a package this close to
> the final devel freeze?  I'm of a strong opinion to untag that build.

+1 --- this is affecting more than just koji:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=495727

and who knows which other daemons are innocently using -n in specfiles...

			regards, tom lane



From tgl at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 16:05:05 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:05:05 -0400
Subject: rpms/proftpd/devel proftpd.spec,1.45,1.46 
In-Reply-To: <49E4B12F.6070806@city-fan.org> 
References: <20090409182513.F404A7001C@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<49E4B12F.6070806@city-fan.org>
Message-ID: <12419.1239725105@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Paul Howarth <paul at city-fan.org> writes:
> Matthias Saou wrote:
>> +# We'll need to find a better way to do this once RHEL6 comes out

> A "better way" that I use is:
> BuildRequires: /usr/include/tcpd.h
> Works everywhere.

I think this is discouraged by guidelines because it makes the depsolver
work *much* harder to figure out which package the require actually
resolves as.  At least I know I've been told to avoid it when practical.

Of course, maybe fixing that is just a small performance fix in rpm ...

			regards, tom lane



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 14 16:05:59 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:05:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: rpms/proftpd/devel proftpd.spec,1.45,1.46 
In-Reply-To: <12419.1239725105@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <20090409182513.F404A7001C@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<49E4B12F.6070806@city-fan.org> <12419.1239725105@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904141205250.8272@localhost.localdomain>



On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Tom Lane wrote:

> Paul Howarth <paul at city-fan.org> writes:
>> Matthias Saou wrote:
>>> +# We'll need to find a better way to do this once RHEL6 comes out
>
>> A "better way" that I use is:
>> BuildRequires: /usr/include/tcpd.h
>> Works everywhere.
>
> I think this is discouraged by guidelines because it makes the depsolver
> work *much* harder to figure out which package the require actually
> resolves as.  At least I know I've been told to avoid it when practical.
>
> Of course, maybe fixing that is just a small performance fix in rpm ...
>

It doesn't make the depsolver work harder. It makes the user/builder 
download all the filelists metadata to do this look up - so it is a pain 
for users on slow/bad connections.

-sv



From notting at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 16:09:12 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:09:12 -0400
Subject: block-device-added event for upstart not emitted
In-Reply-To: <20090414154445.GA10951@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>
References: <20090414154445.GA10951@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>
Message-ID: <20090414160912.GB2411@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Tomasz Torcz (tomek at pipebreaker.pl) said: 
>   while packaging hdapsd I've created upstart script reacting on
> block-device-added event, as I found over the internet that this
> is event should be emitted. But on Fedora rawhide it isn't. I
> believe someting like following is missing from udev rules:
> 
> ACTION=="add",    SUBSYSTEM=="block", KERNEL=="*[!0-9]", 
> RUN="/usr/sbin/initctl emit block-device-added %k -eDEVNAME"
> 
>   Is this deliberate omission, just bug, or is list of common events not
> yet established?

There's no standard/list of common events; it's all distribution
specific.

Bill



From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 16:09:48 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:09:48 -0700
Subject: Koji issues?
In-Reply-To: <12253.1239724792@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net> <49E4893E.2000201@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<49E48A3A.1030008@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<1239724127.3689.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<12253.1239724792@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239725388.3689.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 11:59 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> > On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 22:06 +0900, Mamoru Tasaka wrote:
> >> Should be read as "Looks like 'useradd' in newly imported shadow-utils
> >> 4.1.3-1.fc11 no longer accepts '-n' option".
> 
> > Why the hell is a change like that being made in a package this close to
> > the final devel freeze?  I'm of a strong opinion to untag that build.
> 
> +1 --- this is affecting more than just koji:
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=495727
> 
> and who knows which other daemons are innocently using -n in specfiles...
> 
> 			regards, tom lane

Looks like a newer build adds -n back, so we're all OK now.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From rc040203 at freenet.de  Tue Apr 14 16:14:22 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:14:22 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>

David wrote:
> On 4/13/2009 3:57 PM, Callum Lerwick wrote:
>> On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 13:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>> Regardless of which default setting you prefer, the clear evidence is
>>> that people do end up doing it accidentally.
> 
>> So change it to ctl-alt-lshift-rshift-bs.
> 
> Every time I disable this /dev/null void.
> 
> 
> Honest to $Diety. *All* of you. Change it to something. Anything. Or don't.
> But *please* shut the hell up about it. Be a man and suck in in. Deal with
> it and stop whining. Shessh.

We aren't whining.

We are fiercely fighting to prevent serious harm to Fedora's usability.




From paul at city-fan.org  Tue Apr 14 16:23:10 2009
From: paul at city-fan.org (Paul Howarth)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:23:10 +0100
Subject: rpms/proftpd/devel proftpd.spec,1.45,1.46
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904141205250.8272@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090409182513.F404A7001C@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>	<49E4B12F.6070806@city-fan.org>
	<12419.1239725105@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904141205250.8272@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E4B86E.4010203@city-fan.org>

Seth Vidal wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Tom Lane wrote:
> 
>> Paul Howarth <paul at city-fan.org> writes:
>>> Matthias Saou wrote:
>>>> +# We'll need to find a better way to do this once RHEL6 comes out
>>
>>> A "better way" that I use is:
>>> BuildRequires: /usr/include/tcpd.h
>>> Works everywhere.
>>
>> I think this is discouraged by guidelines because it makes the depsolver
>> work *much* harder to figure out which package the require actually
>> resolves as.  At least I know I've been told to avoid it when practical.
>>
>> Of course, maybe fixing that is just a small performance fix in rpm ...
>>
> 
> It doesn't make the depsolver work harder. It makes the user/builder 
> download all the filelists metadata to do this look up - so it is a pain 
> for users on slow/bad connections.

It's not a problem in this case though because it's a buildreq that's 
resolved once on the buildsystem and has no impact on end users at all.

Paul.



From katzj at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 16:24:34 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:24:34 -0400
Subject: rpms/proftpd/devel proftpd.spec,1.45,1.46
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904141205250.8272@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090409182513.F404A7001C@cvs1.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<49E4B12F.6070806@city-fan.org> <12419.1239725105@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904141205250.8272@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090414162433.GB67969@redhat.com>

On Tuesday, April 14 2009, Seth Vidal said:
> On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Paul Howarth <paul at city-fan.org> writes:
>>> Matthias Saou wrote:
>>>> +# We'll need to find a better way to do this once RHEL6 comes out
>>
>>> A "better way" that I use is:
>>> BuildRequires: /usr/include/tcpd.h
>>> Works everywhere.
>>
>> I think this is discouraged by guidelines because it makes the depsolver
>> work *much* harder to figure out which package the require actually
>> resolves as.  At least I know I've been told to avoid it when practical.
>>
>> Of course, maybe fixing that is just a small performance fix in rpm ...
>
> It doesn't make the depsolver work harder. It makes the user/builder  
> download all the filelists metadata to do this look up - so it is a pain  
> for users on slow/bad connections.

That said, for a BuildRequires, it's not terrible.  If you're looking to
build, you're already going to be downloading a lot and the filelists
are kind of a drop in the bucket.

I think the guidelines are pretty explicit about it being discouraged
for regular requires and not buildrqeuires, but it's been a while since
I looked at that chunk

Jeremy



From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 16:28:20 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:28:20 -0700
Subject: Koji issues?
In-Reply-To: <1239725388.3689.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49E4822A.602@jcomserv.net> <49E4893E.2000201@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<49E48A3A.1030008@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
	<1239724127.3689.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<12253.1239724792@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239725388.3689.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239726500.3689.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 09:09 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 11:59 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> > Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> > > On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 22:06 +0900, Mamoru Tasaka wrote:
> > >> Should be read as "Looks like 'useradd' in newly imported shadow-utils
> > >> 4.1.3-1.fc11 no longer accepts '-n' option".
> > 
> > > Why the hell is a change like that being made in a package this close to
> > > the final devel freeze?  I'm of a strong opinion to untag that build.
> > 
> > +1 --- this is affecting more than just koji:
> > 
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=495727
> > 
> > and who knows which other daemons are innocently using -n in specfiles...
> > 
> > 			regards, tom lane
> 
> Looks like a newer build adds -n back, so we're all OK now.

Except that the new version which supposedly adds -n back is still
breaking builds, so I untagged it as well.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Tue Apr 14 16:30:51 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:30:51 +0300
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <49E495A5.4020408@gnat.ca>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904141205.37579.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> <49E495A5.4020408@gnat.ca>
Message-ID: <200904141930.52180.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>




On Tuesday 14 April 2009 16:54:45 Nathanael D. Noblet wrote:
> Only 0.22 even *works*, 

If it's useless, it does not *work*, that's a fact.
Those two design problems I referred are facts.

No matter how badly it's needed or wanted.

> the upstream developers recommend 0.22, 0.3-0.4 doesn't.

Where we had discussion about this and even most developers opposed 
to keep 0.22 around, it was still decided to 'support' it regardless
that it just compiles and runs, but is useless.

I personally wouldn't care less unless it wouldn't send lot of endusers
to upstream whine about its problems and delay the 0.4x release even more.

Still, I don't understand why Fedora needs to ship it.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 18:52:14 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:52:14 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <200904141205.37579.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<grlogm$tsf$1@ger.gmane.org> <1239608139.4354.16.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904141205.37579.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <1239735134.4354.43.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 12:05 +0300, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> 
> 
> On Monday 13 April 2009 10:35:39 Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 23:15 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > 
> > > > Some contacts had got duplicated for some reason, but still,
> nice effort.
> > > 
> > > Unfortunately, as I've been told, duplication of data is an
> inherent issue
> > > with libopensync 0.22, and the main reason why they're working on
> > > redesigning everything in 0.3x/0.40. Unfortunately, their redesign
> is
> > > breaking everything at the moment. :-(
> > 
> > Yes, but it's more of a long-term issue (or if you get an incomplete
> > sync - the problem is a 'slow sync' duplicates data). I wouldn't
> expect
> > it as a matter of course on a single-shot test sync. As I said,
> though,
> > it could actually have been duplicated prior to the sync, I didn't
> think
> > to check. I'll do some more extensive testing with various devices
> in a
> > bit.
> 
> 
> 
> - In normal use, it will at some point fall into slow sync, sooner or
> later 
> and create duplicates?. I don't think any user would want that.
> - opensync 0.2x cannot detect? the SAME/SIMILAR cases reliably.
> - Thus only because of these two issues, (plus hundred two smaller
> ones) 
> opensync 0.2x is broken, by design, inside the core - regardless of
> plugins.
> - It's useless to ship completely broken (not low Quality, broken)
> software.
> - Fedora 11 will ship them anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Only thing unclear to me is why?

As I said to you in private, in practice I have not observed this as a
major issue. I did extensive testing with several devices and sync
groups over a long period with 0.22 in Mandriva and did not observe any
duplication of data.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 20:18:07 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:18:07 -0700
Subject: Planned CVS Outage - 2009-04-15 0300 UTC
Message-ID: <1239740287.3689.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Outage Notification - 2009-04-15 03:00 UTC

There will be an outage starting at 2009-04-15 03:00 UTC, which will last
roughly 2 hours.

To convert UTC to your local time, take a look at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UTCHowto
or run:

date -d '2009-04-15 03:00 UTC'

Affected Services:

CVS / Source Control

Reason for Outage:
Mass branching for F-11

Contact Information:
Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>

Please join #fedora-admin in irc.freenode.net or respond to this email to track
the status of this outage.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Fedora-devel-announce mailing list
Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce

From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Tue Apr 14 20:41:37 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:41:37 +0300
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <1239735134.4354.43.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904141205.37579.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<1239735134.4354.43.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <200904142341.38289.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>



On Wednesday 08 April 2009 23:04:56 Adam Williamson wrote:
> I tested by syncing evolution <-> kdepim and running kontact, all the
> contacts showed up with correct data. Some contacts had got duplicated
> for some reason

On Tuesday 14 April 2009 21:52:14 Adam Williamson wrote:
> As I said to you in private, in practice I have not observed this as a
> major issue. I did extensive testing with several devices and sync
> groups over a long period with 0.22 in Mandriva and did not observe any
> duplication of data.

Sorry but I'm not convinced.


Tuju


-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 21:17:42 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:17:42 -0700
Subject: Multiple package ownership
In-Reply-To: <ufatz4xwv67.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>
References: <855707041.133931239196869971.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<49DCA89A.1030905@gmail.com>
	<1239266277.3279.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090409115601.7abf9f85@faldor.intranet>
	<1239273069.3288.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090409125711.3fab9aab@faldor.intranet>
	<adf480660904091107w1b88eaa5g98694ea7ce8e5ed5@mail.gmail.com>
	<ufatz4xwv67.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <1239743862.4354.54.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 13:15 -0500, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote:
> >>>>> "PL" == Peter Lemenkov <lemenkov at gmail.com> writes:
> 
> PL> Correct me if I wrong.
> 
> You are wrong.

To confirm - I'm a reasonably new redhat.com-er (in the engineering
department) and I have no package management privileges whatever. I
can't do anything to anyone's packages.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 21:30:52 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:30:52 -0700
Subject: What is up with glibc in rawhide?
In-Reply-To: <14540.1239342127@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <15883.1239292622@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239294289.3969.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<25211.1239295485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409112448.52003953.zaitcev@redhat.com>
	<1678.1239298282@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239300590.3969.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<4073.1239305384@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1239306076.3969.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<5062.1239308769@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<20090409202928.GA5083@tyan-ft48-01.lab.bos.redhat.com>
	<14540.1239342127@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1239744652.4354.55.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-10 at 01:42 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:

> Hmm ... I'm not anywhere near familiar enough with the mysql code to
> swear on the spur of the moment that they don't do that; except that
> surely any such code would be broken on most platforms, not only
> bleeding-edge glibc.
> 
> In any case I think it's fair to ask what the heck we were doing
> swapping in experimental code in a core library post-beta.

FWIW, from a QA angle, I had exactly the same reaction. The word
'experimental' should not *ever* show up in the glibc changelog
post-beta...well, maybe with the word 'not' before it. :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 22:11:06 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:11:06 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090412 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090412110422.1F6011B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090412110422.1F6011B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239747066.4354.62.camel@adam.local.net>

On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 11:04 +0000, Rawhide Report wrote:

> New package webkitgtk
>         GTK+ Web content engine library

Why does WebKit-gtk still exist in Rawhide? I checked and the packages
are still on mirrors, it's not just yum getting mixed up.

[adamw at adam ~]$ yum info WebKit-gtk
Loaded plugins: dellsysidplugin2, refresh-packagekit
Available Packages
Name       : WebKit-gtk
Arch       : i586
Version    : 1.1.1
Release    : 1.fc11
Size       : 5.3 M
Repo       : rawhide
Summary    : GTK+ port of WebKit
URL        : http://webkit.org/
License    : LGPLv2+ and BSD
Description: WebKit is an open-source Web content engine library. This package
           : contains the shared libraries for the WebKit GTK+ port as well as
           : the sample GtkLauncher tool.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 14 22:20:06 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:50:06 +0530
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E4628C.2090608@fedoraproject.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<16de708d0904131237x2e5e6cc2o81764098f05e4cc8@mail.gmail.com>	<49E3D721.6000000@fedoraproject.org>
	<49E4628C.2090608@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49E50C16.9090805@fedoraproject.org>

psmith wrote:
> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> I'm confused here. He was attempting to restart the entire machine,
>>> and instead restarted the X server, and this is considered a
>>> significant problem?
>>>     
>>
>> Yes because control alt del calls up the task manager in Windows in
>> recent versions and even initiating a reboot, you get a prompt for
>> confirmation and applications get time to save data.
>>   
> 
> well there we have it! another who wants fedora to behave like it's
> written by m$, and i thought the redmond theme was as close as fedora
> would get to windows :(

I was explaining to Arthur the difference between zapping X in Linux vs
rebooting in Windows.  That difference in user experience explains why
it is important to not equate the two things together.  This has nothing
to do with wanting Fedora to be like Windows.

Rahul






From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 14 22:24:08 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:54:08 +0530
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <200904142341.38289.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>	<200904141205.37579.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>	<1239735134.4354.43.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904142341.38289.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <49E50D08.5060206@fedoraproject.org>

Juha Tuomala wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday 08 April 2009 23:04:56 Adam Williamson wrote:
>> I tested by syncing evolution <-> kdepim and running kontact, all the
>> contacts showed up with correct data. Some contacts had got duplicated
>> for some reason
> 
> On Tuesday 14 April 2009 21:52:14 Adam Williamson wrote:
>> As I said to you in private, in practice I have not observed this as a
>> major issue. I did extensive testing with several devices and sync
>> groups over a long period with 0.22 in Mandriva and did not observe any
>> duplication of data.
> 
> Sorry but I'm not convinced.

Then, reproduce the problem and file a bug report.

Rahul



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 22:19:22 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:19:22 -0700
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for
 Fedora 11?
In-Reply-To: <93d66b780904130947q770ea3f7ke2d9b4c20eb301e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost>  <gru7ln$o4$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090413104513.1e665aac@leela>
	<93d66b780904130947q770ea3f7ke2d9b4c20eb301e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239747562.4354.63.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 13:47 -0300, Mario Chacon wrote:
> This driver should be work with ATI Radeon HD 3200? 

Radeon should work with every card with Radeon in its name ever (and all
FireGLs of the same vintage). If it doesn't, file a bug. :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 22:22:49 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:22:49 -0700
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <20090413100804.6a953915@faldor.intranet>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090413100804.6a953915@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <1239747769.4354.64.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 10:08 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:53:09 -0400, Orcan wrote:
> 
> > I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
> > pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
> > I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.
> 
> The patch is not specific to pulseaudio, though.

Right. It's not some kind of hack - it's a genuine improvement which
allows portaudio to work with more ALSA devices, one of which happens to
include the virtual ALSA device used by PulseAudio.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 22:38:08 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:38:08 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090412 changes
In-Reply-To: <1239747066.4354.62.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090412110422.1F6011B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<1239747066.4354.62.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904141538g25f98318n6b7166cb568616f9@mail.gmail.com>

>> New package webkitgtk
>> ? ? ? ? GTK+ Web content engine library
>
> Why does WebKit-gtk still exist in Rawhide? I checked and the packages
> are still on mirrors, it's not just yum getting mixed up.

I'm seeing other issues with obsoletes as well.

dhclient-4.1.0-15.fc11.x86_64 should obsolete libdhcp4client (RHBZ 493213)

dhcpv6-client-1.2.0-1.fc11.x86_64 should obsolete libdhcp4client (RHBZ 493214)

xorg-x11-server-Xorg-1.6.0-20.fc11 should obsolete a number of old X
input drivers yet with todays update it only did so for
xorg-x11-drv-wiimote (RHBZ 493221)

A "rpm -qa | fc9" and the same from fc10 picks up a number of old
packages on my system that should have been obsoleted by other
packages that haven't been replaced for some reason.

Cheers,
Peter



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 22:46:46 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:46:46 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090412 changes
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904141538g25f98318n6b7166cb568616f9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090412110422.1F6011B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<1239747066.4354.62.camel@adam.local.net>
	<5256d0b0904141538g25f98318n6b7166cb568616f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904141546o352b53devbd1d751bc03b5728@mail.gmail.com>

>> Why does WebKit-gtk still exist in Rawhide? I checked and the packages
>> are still on mirrors, it's not just yum getting mixed up.
>
> I'm seeing other issues with obsoletes as well.
>
> dhclient-4.1.0-15.fc11.x86_64 should obsolete libdhcp4client (RHBZ 493213)
>
> dhcpv6-client-1.2.0-1.fc11.x86_64 should obsolete libdhcp4client (RHBZ 493214)
>
> xorg-x11-server-Xorg-1.6.0-20.fc11 should obsolete a number of old X
> input drivers yet with todays update it only did so for
> xorg-x11-drv-wiimote (RHBZ 493221)

Actually it looks like the xorg stuff did actually update properly, it
just didn't look like it would on the initial list in an "yum
upgrade", the dhcp one hasn't though.

Peter



From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 22:51:53 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:51:53 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090412 changes
In-Reply-To: <1239747066.4354.62.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090412110422.1F6011B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<1239747066.4354.62.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1239749513.3689.31.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 15:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> Why does WebKit-gtk still exist in Rawhide? I checked and the packages
> are still on mirrors, it's not just yum getting mixed up.

Because the last build of WebKit still included the WebKit-gtk
subpackage.

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=93261

Until the subpackage is culled from the WebKit package, we'll have both
webkitgtk and WebKit-gtk in the repos.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 22:53:48 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:53:48 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 Snapshot 1
In-Reply-To: <200904140816.39245.opensource@till.name>
References: <1239376176.7037.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904131738s3f03f77cma7f4e3785ac9791e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E428EC.5010204@poolshark.org>
	<200904140816.39245.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <1239749628.4354.73.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 08:16 +0200, Till Maas wrote:
> On Di April 14 2009, Denis Leroy wrote:
> 
> > Even worse on my T61, where the live CD reboots right after grub
> > graphical login, and a USB stick made from it shows an all-white screen
> > right after BIOS...
> 
> You need the syslinux version that is in rawhide when you create F11 live USB 
> media to not get the white screen.

Or, better, test the fixed script from the bug report:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492370
http://katzj.fedorapeople.org/livecd-iso-to-disk.sh

and provide some feedback, so Jeremy knows whether it's safe to ship as
an update.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From kevin at scrye.com  Tue Apr 14 22:56:15 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:56:15 -0600
Subject: rawhide report: 20090412 changes
In-Reply-To: <1239749513.3689.31.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090412110422.1F6011B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<1239747066.4354.62.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239749513.3689.31.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090414165615.79b3bb49@ohm.scrye.com>

On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:51:53 -0700
Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 15:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > Why does WebKit-gtk still exist in Rawhide? I checked and the
> > packages are still on mirrors, it's not just yum getting mixed up.
> 
> Because the last build of WebKit still included the WebKit-gtk
> subpackage.
> 
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=93261
> 
> Until the subpackage is culled from the WebKit package, we'll have
> both webkitgtk and WebKit-gtk in the repos.

webkitgtk replaces the WebKit package, the maintainer simply has not
yet done the end of life procedure on the old WebKit package. 

I sent him private email asking him to do so... 

(note that webkitgtk just finished review and came in the other day). 

kevin

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From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 23:11:37 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:11:37 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net>	<grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info>	<49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>  <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 18:14 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

> We aren't whining.
> 
> We are fiercely fighting to prevent serious harm to Fedora's usability.

Oh, come on, quit exaggerating. This is a pretty trivial issue. Grow a
sense of perspective.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 14 23:15:12 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:15:12 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090412 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090414165615.79b3bb49@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <20090412110422.1F6011B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<1239747066.4354.62.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239749513.3689.31.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090414165615.79b3bb49@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <1239750912.4354.75.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 16:56 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:51:53 -0700
> Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 15:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > > Why does WebKit-gtk still exist in Rawhide? I checked and the
> > > packages are still on mirrors, it's not just yum getting mixed up.
> > 
> > Because the last build of WebKit still included the WebKit-gtk
> > subpackage.
> > 
> > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=93261
> > 
> > Until the subpackage is culled from the WebKit package, we'll have
> > both webkitgtk and WebKit-gtk in the repos.
> 
> webkitgtk replaces the WebKit package, the maintainer simply has not
> yet done the end of life procedure on the old WebKit package. 

Right, that's what I was asking - sorry if it was unclear, Jesse.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From peter.hutterer at who-t.net  Tue Apr 14 23:44:40 2009
From: peter.hutterer at who-t.net (Peter Hutterer)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:44:40 +1000
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <200904141054.10896.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090414005033.GA12818@who-t.net>
	<200904141054.10896.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090414234439.GB20648@dingo.redhat.com>

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:54:10AM +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> On Tuesday 14 April 2009 05:50:34 Peter Hutterer wrote:
> > - the keyboard driver now uses XKB instead of its own hardcoded zapping.
> 
> Does this solution have the same chance to kill X as the hardcoded one had?
> I mean: is it possible for situations where this solution doesn't work but the 
> old one does? (like broken grabs...)

There's no difference to before.

Let me explain in a bit more detail. zapping consists of two parts:
- the Terminate_Server XKB symbol triggers the action, if you don't have this
  symbol, you can't trigger it.
- The DontZap setting controls whether the Terminate_Server action will
  actually do anything when you trigger it.

The keyboard driver had - from the times before XKB was around - code for
so-called "Special Key" handling. Including a hard-coded path for C-A-B. This
means that even if you move the Terminate_Server symbol to another key or
remove it altogether, the keyboard driver would zap the server on C-A-B.
This is what's been removed, it now posts the keycode, and passes through the
xkb action handling.

The only time when the old code _could_ have worked but the new one didn't is
if the server is stuck somewhere in the main loop but still handles signals
fine - so the zapping would be triggered during the SIGIO handling. 

I said "could", because the keyboard driver didn't use signals for input
events, it just got polled (checked the git logs, goes back to the original
X.Org import from Xfree86). So kbd was relying on a working main loop anyway.

The only difference is that we can move or remove the Terminate_Server symbol
key now.

Makes sense?

Cheers,
  Peter



From a.badger at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 00:29:47 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:29:47 -0700
Subject: mono-2.4 resolution for F11, needs doing by F12
Message-ID: <49E52A7B.7080201@gmail.com>

Thanks to many hours of debugging by Steven Munroe, we have a mono-2.4
final package that can go into Fedora 11.  Thanks Steven!

This package does gloss over two issues that should be worked on for the
Fedora 12 release... and the earlier the better:

1) We're able to build by linking the mono vm statically to libmono.
AFAIK, libmono implements the runtime and the mono binary just wraps
that up into an invokable program.  When we link dynamically, we get a
stack overflow when using the built mono with mcs to compile c sharp
files needed for the System library.  Interestingly, this fails on sparc
(both solaris and fedora) as well, although the failure is different.

This is something we need to fix because we don't know why we're failing
when linking this way.  There's a chance that other programs that want
to embed the mono vm (via linking to libmono) will fail in similar ways
to the mono binary in these circumstances.

2) We're not building for ppc64.  We haven't had mono on ppc64 before
now and we generally run ppc32 userspace on ppc64 so this doesn't block
F11.  If I understand all the communication about this, though, it
should now be possible.  We just need to bootstrap this on F12 rawhide
and make sure that it works.

-Toshio

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From chris.stone at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 01:20:54 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:20:54 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 18:14 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>
>> We aren't whining.
>>
>> We are fiercely fighting to prevent serious harm to Fedora's usability.
>
> Oh, come on, quit exaggerating. This is a pretty trivial issue. Grow a
> sense of perspective.

Adam obviously has not given much thought to the ramifications this
change has.  Hey Adam, why don't you pretend you are sitting behind a
help desk trying to help out newbies?  Maybe it is *you* who needs to
grow some grey matter.



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr 15 01:40:54 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:40:54 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E53B26.8020905@freenet.de>

Christopher Stone wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 18:14 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>
>>> We aren't whining.
>>>
>>> We are fiercely fighting to prevent serious harm to Fedora's usability.
>> Oh, come on, quit exaggerating.
I don't think I am exaggerating.


> This is a pretty trivial issue.
It is not - It is Red Hat and X having abandoned a substantial and vital 
feature.

IMO, it's equivalent to them having removed the "emergency brakes". A 
step they should be ashamed of of.

>> Grow a sense of perspective.
> 
> Adam obviously has not given much thought to the ramifications this
> change has.
The #1 ramification will be people finding themselves in situations of 
having "to unplugging the power cord" to get out X when "X/their desktop 
runs wild/becomes unusable".

Great progress, great achievement!

Ralf



From chris.stone at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 01:42:48 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:42:48 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904141842r35fcff29x757ea961741fb0a8@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Christopher Stone
<chris.stone at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 18:14 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>
>>> We aren't whining.
>>>
>>> We are fiercely fighting to prevent serious harm to Fedora's usability.
>>
>> Oh, come on, quit exaggerating. This is a pretty trivial issue. Grow a
>> sense of perspective.

Why do people at redhat and/or x.org seem to think the zap feature is
trivial or unimportant or not useful?  I hate to burst your bubbles,
but despite all the cool things X can do, ctrl-alt-backspace (as
simplistic and trivial as it is) is probably one of the most useful,
cool, recognizable features in X.  If you asked a newbie what is the
coolest feature X has, they would probably say ctrl-alt-backspace.  Im
sure it makes everyone at x.org cringe.



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr 15 01:54:04 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:54:04 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904141842r35fcff29x757ea961741fb0a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904141842r35fcff29x757ea961741fb0a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E53E3C.3050807@freenet.de>

Christopher Stone wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Christopher Stone
> <chris.stone at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 18:14 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>>
>>>> We aren't whining.
>>>>
>>>> We are fiercely fighting to prevent serious harm to Fedora's usability.
>>> Oh, come on, quit exaggerating. This is a pretty trivial issue. Grow a
>>> sense of perspective.
> 
> Why do people at redhat and/or x.org seem to think the zap feature is
> trivial or unimportant or not useful?
Probably the fact it's not being used "when things just work" and is 
only _necessary_ in situations of emergency/"when thinks go bizarre"

"Infrequently used" == "unnecessary"?

Some food for thought: How to quit X when X comes up but the 
window-manager fails to come up?

In recent days, this has happened several times to me on FC10 (reason 
yet unknown, probably somebody having messed up something related to 
nis/yp, nfs, autofs). My escape: ctl-alt-bs.

Ralf



From chris.stone at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 02:04:14 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:04:14 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E53E3C.3050807@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904141842r35fcff29x757ea961741fb0a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E53E3C.3050807@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904141904h37584c9ct572b5c3cce3dbd04@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:
> Christopher Stone wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Christopher Stone
>> <chris.stone at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 18:14 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We aren't whining.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are fiercely fighting to prevent serious harm to Fedora's usability.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, come on, quit exaggerating. This is a pretty trivial issue. Grow a
>>>> sense of perspective.
>>
>> Why do people at redhat and/or x.org seem to think the zap feature is
>> trivial or unimportant or not useful?
>
> Probably the fact it's not being used "when things just work" and is only
> _necessary_ in situations of emergency/"when thinks go bizarre"

Perhaps, I'm sticking to my theory that telling an X programmer that
"ctrl-alt-bksp is one of the coolest features in X" is the worst
possible insult you can give to an X programmer.  So they are
disabling it by default. :P



From jonstanley at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 02:52:32 2009
From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:52:32 -0400
Subject: FESco meeting summary for 20090410
Message-ID: <da159fda0904141952t44d99e70ic908b932007af505@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for the late summary, but here it is....


== Members Present ==

 * Jon Stanley (jds2001)
 * Kevin Fenzi (nirik)
 * Dan Horak (sharkcz)
 * Josh Boyer (jwb)
 * Brian Pepple (bpepple)

== Members Absent ==

 * David Woodhouse (dwmw2)
 * Bill Nottingham (notting)
 * Jarod Wilson (j-rod)
 * Dennis Gilmore (dgilmore)

== Sponsor request - rjones ==

This request was approved.

== Non-provenpackager committable packages ==

Lengthy discussion based on questions from the LVM team, see
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/124 for details of the
questions.  Answers include:

1) Since very few members of FESCo are privy to full details of the
security incident beyond what has been made public (reference
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2009-March/msg00010.html
for details), FESCo would not be quorate if members that did not have
that specific knowledge abstained from voting in this matter.
However, the method of attack that was used is a specific threat
addressed in the threat assessment that has not yet been made public
regarding this decision, which was prepared by an individual not on
FESCo that does have full knowledge of the incident.  FESCo would like
to make this threat assessment public, however, we have delayed a
decision on this until the following meeting due to low turnout to
this meeting (it took place on a Red Hat holiday).

2) There is fear amongst FESCo that if we grant this exception, based
on "no one in provenpackager has reason to touch this package", we
start down a very slippery slope that leads us back to where we are
today. Note that this is the same reason we declined excpetions to
initscripts and hwdata.

3) There was no dissent amongst members present on the above two items.

If the LVM team still has further issues for FESCo, we will invite
them to a future meeting for a more interactive discussion.

It was also decided that enough time has passed to open the ACL's on
all packages except for LVM items and Firefox/Thunderbird/XULRunner as
was decided at previous meetings.

== Features ==

=== DebugInfoFS ===

The [[Features/DebuginfoFS   | DebuginfoFS]] feature was approved for Fedora 12.

=== Systemtap Static Probes ===

The [[Features/SystemtapStaticProbes | Systemtap Static Probes]]
feature was approved for Fedora 12.

=== liblvm ===

FESCo deferred voting on this feature over concerns about the
implications for anaconda, and wondering if this was actually a
feature at all.

=== Multiseat ===

The [[Features/Multiseat | Multiseat]] feature was approved for Fedora 12.

=== Dracut ===

FESCo deferred voting on Dracut due to the lack of domain expert availability

== Ctrl-Alt-Backspace ==

FESCo was requested to "order" the Xorg maintainers to enable the
functionality of Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to kill the X server, as it has
been in previous releases.  FESCo declined to intervene in this
matter, as it is a configuration option, accessible via either the GUI
or a configuration file, to re-enable it, as well as a general belief
that the micro-managing of maintainers oni issues such as this should
be done only in the most grave and dire of circumstances.

== Deactivated maintainers ==

A final email will be sent this week to all maintainers of packages
whose accounts are currently deactivated.  If they remain deactivated
in 7 days, packages belonging to those accounts will be orphaned.



From peter at thecodergeek.com  Wed Apr 15 04:59:57 2009
From: peter at thecodergeek.com (Peter Gordon)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:59:57 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090412 changes
In-Reply-To: <1239747066.4354.62.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090412110422.1F6011B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<1239747066.4354.62.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1239771597.20949.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 15:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> Why does WebKit-gtk still exist in Rawhide? I checked and the packages
> are still on mirrors, it's not just yum getting mixed up.
Hi, Adam & all.

As I mentioned to Kevin in reply to his off-list mail, I've
unfortunately had so much schoolwork and other duties recently that I
got distracted from finishing the EOL/renaming process. Apologies about
that.

I've now added WebKit to the RetiredPackages wiki page and submitted a
ticket to rel-eng (#1458) asking that it be blocked from future rawhide
composes, per the EOL policy.

Thanks, and Regards.
-- 
Peter Gordon (codergeek42) <peter at thecodergeek.com>
Who am I? :: http://thecodergeek.com/about-me



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From eric.tanguy at univ-nantes.fr  Wed Apr 15 05:30:13 2009
From: eric.tanguy at univ-nantes.fr (Eric Tanguy)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:30:13 +0200
Subject: qt 4.5
Message-ID: <49E570E5.2000702@univ-nantes.fr>

I know qt 4.5 is in updates-testing repo but i have a package (scidavis) 
also in testing repo which needs qt 4.5. So when qt 4.5 will be in 
stable repo and how to know it.
Thanks
Eric



From pingou at pingoured.fr  Wed Apr 15 06:58:52 2009
From: pingou at pingoured.fr (Pierre-Yves)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:58:52 +0200
Subject: Build failure
Message-ID: <1239778732.9298.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Dear all,

I am facing a problem at build time that I do not understand.
The package geanyvc builds fine in F11 [1] but it crashes in F10 [2] and
F9 [3]

We first though there was a requires missing in Geany itself (#493566)
but this issue is solved in geany 0.16-2.fc10.
In addition the build.log says :
"configure: error: Package requirements (geany >= 0.16) were not met:"
While the root.log shows that it install:
geany-devel                 i386        0.16-2.fc10 

I would be interested in any help to solve this problem.

Thanks,
Pierre


[1] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=96329
[2] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1299624
[3] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1299627




From mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp  Wed Apr 15 07:05:38 2009
From: mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Mamoru Tasaka)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:05:38 +0900
Subject: Build failure
In-Reply-To: <1239778732.9298.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239778732.9298.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E58742.6050603@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>

Pierre-Yves wrote, at 04/15/2009 03:58 PM +9:00:
> Dear all,
> 
> I am facing a problem at build time that I do not understand.
> The package geanyvc builds fine in F11 [1] but it crashes in F10 [2] and
> F9 [3]
> 
> We first though there was a requires missing in Geany itself (#493566)
> but this issue is solved in geany 0.16-2.fc10.
> In addition the build.log says :
> "configure: error: Package requirements (geany >= 0.16) were not met:"
> While the root.log shows that it install:
> geany-devel                 i386        0.16-2.fc10 
> 
> I would be interested in any help to solve this problem.
> 
> Thanks,
> Pierre
> 
> 
> [1] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=96329
> [2] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1299624
> [3] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1299627

This is because geany-devel does not have "Requires: gtk2-devel"
although it should (on F-11 gtk2-devel is pulled in buildroot
because of automatic pkgconfig deps)

Regards,
Mamoru



From pingou at pingoured.fr  Wed Apr 15 07:14:27 2009
From: pingou at pingoured.fr (Pierre-Yves)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:14:27 +0200
Subject: Build failure
In-Reply-To: <49E58742.6050603@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
References: <1239778732.9298.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E58742.6050603@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1239779667.9298.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 16:05 +0900, Mamoru Tasaka wrote:
> This is because geany-devel does not have "Requires: gtk2-devel"
> although it should (on F-11 gtk2-devel is pulled in buildroot
> because of automatic pkgconfig deps)
Thanks Mamoru.

I will update the geany package to do so.

Regards,
Pierre



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 07:19:38 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:19:38 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904141205.37579.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> <49E495A5.4020408@gnat.ca>
	<200904141930.52180.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <gs41qa$c72$1@ger.gmane.org>

Juha Tuomala wrote:
> Where we had discussion about this and even most developers opposed
> to keep 0.22 around

But in the thread you pointed me to, the one who actually does the work (D.
Gollub) was in favor of keeping it around.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 07:29:04 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:29:04 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>	<200904141205.37579.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>	<1239735134.4354.43.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904142341.38289.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<49E50D08.5060206@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <gs42c2$fj6$1@ger.gmane.org>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Then, reproduce the problem and file a bug report.

Kinda pointless to file a bug report about a major design issue in a legacy
branch which is dead upstream.

Unfortunately, the OpenSync project is currently producing no production
release, there's the legacy 0.2x branch with major design issues they're
unable and/or unwilling to fix in it and no further releases are planned
from it and there's the development 0.3x/0.40 branch which is still very
broken (even more than 0.22 is).

Unfortunately, upstreams like that are a complete PITA to work with, their
software is bordering uselessness. There needs to be at least one supported
branch at any time. For libraries, application compatibility is also to be
considered (e.g. we're now stuck with no KDE 4 KitchenSync because it was
developed against 0.3x in the expectation that 0.40 would come soon as had
been promised by the OpenSync developers - it's now completely disabled in
KDE 4.2 because there's no usable libopensync for it). Libraries are
useless with no applications using them. And applications are going to be
very reluctant to port to 0.3x seeing what happened to KitchenSync.

        Kevin Kofler



From jreznik at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 07:37:11 2009
From: jreznik at redhat.com (Jaroslav Reznik)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:37:11 +0200
Subject: qt 4.5
In-Reply-To: <49E570E5.2000702@univ-nantes.fr>
References: <49E570E5.2000702@univ-nantes.fr>
Message-ID: <200904150937.12264.jreznik@redhat.com>

On Wednesday 15 April 2009 07:30:13 Eric Tanguy wrote:
> I know qt 4.5 is in updates-testing repo but i have a package (scidavis)
> also in testing repo which needs qt 4.5. So when qt 4.5 will be in
> stable repo and how to know it.

Hi Eric,
Qt 4.5 will be probably in stable early next week, together with KDE 4.2.2 but 
first we need some feedback and there are still some issues with 4.5 
compatibility.

For Fedora KDE related discussion it's better to use fedora-
kde at lists.fedoraproject.org mailing list. Follow this mailing list to know 
time of push to stable. Or we can add your package to our big stable push 
group.

Jaroslav

> Thanks
> Eric

-- 
Jaroslav ?ezn?k <jreznik at redhat.com>
Associate Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 731 455 332
Red Hat, Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com/



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 07:41:09 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:41:09 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239612617.21284.55.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <gs432l$fj6$2@ger.gmane.org>

Dave Airlie wrote:
> I noticed one of the first comments is someone who missed one of the
> points of Peters work. At GDM you can still C-A-B all you want, the user
> preference only takes control when you login.

Uh, if the default is to have it disabled (and it currently is), GDM would
have to explicitly enable it for that to work. As would KDM and all the
other login managers. I don't see this actually implemented in Rawhide's
GDM. The option would have to default to enabled for things to just work.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 08:01:13 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:01:13 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49DBD701.3070900@comcast.net> <grhgqr$v6f$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239173701.18506.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239612617.21284.55.camel@localhost> <gs432l$fj6$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <gs4489$jg3$1@ger.gmane.org>

I wrote:
> Uh, if the default is to have it disabled (and it currently is), GDM would
> have to explicitly enable it for that to work. As would KDM and all the
> other login managers. I don't see this actually implemented in Rawhide's
> GDM. The option would have to default to enabled for things to just work.

Hmmm, reading Peter Hutterer's reply further down the thread, it looks like
the default for the xkb setting _is_ "on", it's just
gnome-keyboard-properties which turns it off by default. This makes sense.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 08:10:12 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:10:12 +0200
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090413100804.6a953915@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <gs44p4$jg3$2@ger.gmane.org>

Michael Schwendt wrote:
> The patch is not specific to pulseaudio, though. A bit more of a problem
> is that the patch has not been merged upstream, and it is still unclear
> whether or when it will be done.

It has been submitted upstream, one of the Mixxx developers has recently
pinged them, but it looks like PortAudio's upstream is in some sort of
dormant/semi-inactive state and not very responsive to patches. :-(

        Kevin Kofler



From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 08:15:54 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:15:54 +0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090414234439.GB20648@dingo.redhat.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<200904141054.10896.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090414234439.GB20648@dingo.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200904151315.54422.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 15 April 2009 04:44:40 Peter Hutterer wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:54:10AM +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> > On Tuesday 14 April 2009 05:50:34 Peter Hutterer wrote:
> > > - the keyboard driver now uses XKB instead of its own hardcoded
> > > zapping.
> >
> > Does this solution have the same chance to kill X as the hardcoded one
> > had? I mean: is it possible for situations where this solution doesn't
> > work but the old one does? (like broken grabs...)
>
> There's no difference to before.
>
> Let me explain in a bit more detail. zapping consists of two parts:
> - the Terminate_Server XKB symbol triggers the action, if you don't have
> this symbol, you can't trigger it.
> - The DontZap setting controls whether the Terminate_Server action will
>   actually do anything when you trigger it.
>
> The keyboard driver had - from the times before XKB was around - code for
> so-called "Special Key" handling. Including a hard-coded path for C-A-B.
> This means that even if you move the Terminate_Server symbol to another key
> or remove it altogether, the keyboard driver would zap the server on C-A-B.
> This is what's been removed, it now posts the keycode, and passes through
> the xkb action handling.
>
> The only time when the old code _could_ have worked but the new one didn't
> is if the server is stuck somewhere in the main loop but still handles
> signals fine - so the zapping would be triggered during the SIGIO handling.
>
> I said "could", because the keyboard driver didn't use signals for input
> events, it just got polled (checked the git logs, goes back to the original
> X.Org import from Xfree86). So kbd was relying on a working main loop
> anyway.
>
> The only difference is that we can move or remove the Terminate_Server
> symbol key now.
>
> Makes sense?
>
> Cheers,
>   Peter

Thanks for the explanation!
It makes sense now. 


Suren



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 08:22:39 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:22:39 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>

Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
> pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
> I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.

PulseAudio is the default sound solution in Fedora, so all packages using
sound SHOULD support it.

IMHO, we should:
* find some solution for JACK apps to work out of the box, without
reconfiguring PulseAudio to work on top of JACK. Maybe this involves
running JACK on top of PulseAudio (something which currently doesn't work
because JACK does not support non-mmap ALSA devices nor the native
PulseAudio protocol), maybe this involves starting up JACK when needed and
having it load the JACK modules into PulseAudio and rerouting running
PulseAudio streams to JACK at runtime (which can be done without
interrupting the PulseAudio streams - the problem with that solution is
that it breaks support for multiple output devices, which work just fine
when using PulseAudio directly), maybe something else, but in any case a
solution is needed to make things just work.
* once that's done, make it a requirement that sound MUST work with
PulseAudio without manual configuration. PulseAudio MUST be the default in
all sound-using applications. JACK SHOULD only be used if PulseAudio (and
any of the compatible APIs, e.g. ALSA, ESD etc.) is not supported (and as I
explained above, it needs to interoperate with PulseAudio more than it
currently does). Likewise, aRts (the deprecated KDE 3 sound server) SHOULD
only be used if outputting directly to PulseAudio is not possible.

It makes no sense to have a sound server configured by default and then have
assorted applications not working with it. It also makes no sense to have a
whole set of applications (JACK-using applications) require manual
reconfiguration of the system according to a readme file shipped with the
jack-audio-connection-kit package to even work at all.

        Kevin Kofler



From eric.tanguy at univ-nantes.fr  Wed Apr 15 08:42:11 2009
From: eric.tanguy at univ-nantes.fr (Eric Tanguy)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:42:11 +0200
Subject: qt 4.5
In-Reply-To: <200904150937.12264.jreznik@redhat.com>
References: <49E570E5.2000702@univ-nantes.fr>
	<200904150937.12264.jreznik@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E59DE3.4060004@univ-nantes.fr>

Jaroslav Reznik a ?crit :
> On Wednesday 15 April 2009 07:30:13 Eric Tanguy wrote:
>   
>> I know qt 4.5 is in updates-testing repo but i have a package (scidavis)
>> also in testing repo which needs qt 4.5. So when qt 4.5 will be in
>> stable repo and how to know it.
>>     
>
> Hi Eric,
> Qt 4.5 will be probably in stable early next week, together with KDE 4.2.2 but 
> first we need some feedback and there are still some issues with 4.5 
> compatibility.
>
> For Fedora KDE related discussion it's better to use fedora-
> kde at lists.fedoraproject.org mailing list. Follow this mailing list to know 
> time of push to stable. Or we can add your package to our big stable push 
> group.
>
> Jaroslav
>
>   
>> Thanks
>> Eric
>>     
>
>   
Ok thank you. Could you add scidavis package to your stable push group ?
Eric



From randyn3lrx at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 09:05:12 2009
From: randyn3lrx at gmail.com (Randy Berry)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 05:05:12 -0400
Subject: Mock not building on rawhide
Message-ID: <d6dfee4a0904150205t3a0a6b57qc5c273d12f60f26@mail.gmail.com>

It seems I can't get anything to build on mock for rawhide. F9/10
build fine but not for rawhide.
I'm getting these errors whenever I try to build anything.
http://fpaste.org/paste/9129
Anyone got a clue what's going on to cause this mess of errors?

Thanks,
~Randy



From peter.hutterer at who-t.net  Wed Apr 15 09:08:12 2009
From: peter.hutterer at who-t.net (Peter Hutterer)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:08:12 +1000
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <gs4489$jg3$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239612617.21284.55.camel@localhost>
	<gs432l$fj6$2@ger.gmane.org> <gs4489$jg3$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090415090811.GA3453@dingo.redhat.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:01:13AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> I wrote:
> > Uh, if the default is to have it disabled (and it currently is), GDM would
> > have to explicitly enable it for that to work. As would KDM and all the
> > other login managers. I don't see this actually implemented in Rawhide's
> > GDM. The option would have to default to enabled for things to just work.
> 
> Hmmm, reading Peter Hutterer's reply further down the thread, it looks like
> the default for the xkb setting _is_ "on", it's just
> gnome-keyboard-properties which turns it off by default. This makes sense.

A bit of clarification here - just in case:
The default keymap does not include the symbols anymore. fedora-setup-keyboard
(which also sets the layout based on /etc/sysconfig/keyboard) enables the
option at X server startup. hence it is on in gdm (or anytime after startup).

When gdm hands over to gnome, gnome applies the keyboard settings as stored
in gconf, and unless the option is set in gnome, it won't be turned on again.
This uses the same mechanism that allows us to start with whatever is in
sysconfig/keyboard at gdm and then apply a custom layout once the user logs
in. The visible effect is that it's on in gdm and off in the session. 

For those not running gnome-settings-daemon it remains on until the respective
desktop environment changes to a layout without setting the XKB options.

Cheers,
  Peter



From luya at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr 15 09:18:39 2009
From: luya at fedoraproject.org (Luya Tshimbalanga)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:18:39 -0700
Subject: Issue with triple boot using IDE - SATA drive
Message-ID: <49E5A66F.6050007@fedoraproject.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

greetings,

I have encountered an issue  when installing Fedora 10 from SATA drive
and set MBR to IDE drive containing Microsoft Windows XP3 (I had to use
it for game and Flash development). Here is how hard drive is set:
IDE Master /dev/sda1 : Windows XP
IDE Slave    /dev/sdb1: Fedora 10 (to be replaced by rawhide)
SATA Master /dev/sdc1: Storage
SATA Master /dev/sdd1: Future Fedora 10

Can anyone explain how to properly booth SATA Fedora 10 with Grub? Thank
you.

- --
Luya Tshimbalanga
Graphic & Web Designer
E:  luya at fedoraproject.org
W: http://thefinalzone.net
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAknlpm0ACgkQa10Jb0NOz+EIawCfcK3YFqMnBViyzOLlvp54S3DQ
dJ8AmgNQFhqBmEViT69JOACh9gPcEo+X
=oXgT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 09:31:38 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:31:38 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
References: <49DC4E63.6080502@leemhuis.info> <49E29771.3080907@yahoo.co.uk>
	<49E2AF03.7000905@redhat.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239612617.21284.55.camel@localhost>
	<gs432l$fj6$2@ger.gmane.org> <gs4489$jg3$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090415090811.GA3453@dingo.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gs49hq$3c1$1@ger.gmane.org>

Peter Hutterer wrote:
> For those not running gnome-settings-daemon it remains on until the
> respective desktop environment changes to a layout without setting the XKB
> options.

OK.

KDE does not set the keyboard layout at all by default, so I presume this
means KDE will keep the Ctrl+Alt+BkSp on by default. For those users who
enabled keyboard layouts in KDE, what setting they'll get depends on
whether they check the xkb option (and users upgrading from older releases
will have it unchecked).

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 09:34:56 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:34:56 +0200
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com> <49E37684.5070709@jcomserv.net>
	<49E3768D.30304@redhat.com> <49E377BB.8090606@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <gs49o0$3c1$2@ger.gmane.org>

Jon Ciesla wrote:
> Bah!  :)  I'm doing the libmng Merge Review.  If I take ownership, can I
> finish it myself?

Well, I guess you could close it first and then take ownership. ;-) But
that'd be gaming the system to some extent.

        Kevin Kofler



From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Wed Apr 15 09:40:15 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:40:15 +0300
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <49E50D08.5060206@fedoraproject.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904142341.38289.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<49E50D08.5060206@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <200904151240.16254.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>



On Wednesday 15 April 2009 01:24:08 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > On Wednesday 08 April 2009 23:04:56 Adam Williamson wrote:

> >> contacts showed up with correct data. Some contacts had got duplicated

> > Sorry but I'm not convinced.
> 
> Then, reproduce the problem and file a bug report.

I have and also hired a developer to work for one summer to implement
it. It just lacks the some code from plugin side to actually use it.

The SAME/SIMILAR issue has also been addressed with few changes in trunk. 

None of those fixes will never see daylight in 0.2x which has been dead 
for two years already in svn.

Shipping the 0.36 was a mistake and a good example of its consequences
was a party that started using that point-of-time API in their 
project and later found out that it was just a developer snapshot 
and didn't exist anymore.

Putting 0.22 back to Fedora would send same kind of wrong message 
again.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Wed Apr 15 10:03:08 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:03:08 +0300
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <gs41qa$c72$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904141930.52180.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<gs41qa$c72$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>



On Wednesday 15 April 2009 10:19:38 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> But in the thread you pointed me to, the one who actually does the work (D.
> Gollub) was in favor of keeping it around.

Yes, because he wants to protect the project's reputation. Dropping 
it temporarily from distro may give wrong message to the community 
(which I don't agree btw).

In my opinion, we should send people to manually compile and test 
the trunk and help the development, not to ask support for dead release.

Once 0.40 is released, it's back in business and hopefully it turns 
out to be a good framework. Future changes should also be smaller 
and releases more frequent.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 10:19:49 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:49:49 +0530
Subject: Mock not building on rawhide
In-Reply-To: <d6dfee4a0904150205t3a0a6b57qc5c273d12f60f26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d6dfee4a0904150205t3a0a6b57qc5c273d12f60f26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904150319n5e1ccd75hb1fa7ae29f992fce@mail.gmail.com>

> It seems I can't get anything to build on mock for rawhide. F9/10
> build fine but not for rawhide.

See: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg00796.html

Cheers,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 10:26:40 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:26:40 +0200
Subject: qt 4.5
References: <49E570E5.2000702@univ-nantes.fr>
	<200904150937.12264.jreznik@redhat.com>
	<49E59DE3.4060004@univ-nantes.fr>
Message-ID: <gs4cp0$dgc$1@ger.gmane.org>

Eric Tanguy wrote:
> Ok thank you. Could you add scidavis package to your stable push group ?

Hmmm, well, the problem is that if we want to add the package to our update
group, the separate update would need to be deleted first. We can't have 2
update requests for the same package.

        Kevin Kofler



From jreznik at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 10:40:26 2009
From: jreznik at redhat.com (Jaroslav Reznik)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:40:26 +0200
Subject: qt 4.5
In-Reply-To: <gs4cp0$dgc$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49E570E5.2000702@univ-nantes.fr>
	<49E59DE3.4060004@univ-nantes.fr> <gs4cp0$dgc$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904151240.27106.jreznik@redhat.com>

On Wednesday 15 April 2009 12:26:40 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Eric Tanguy wrote:
> > Ok thank you. Could you add scidavis package to your stable push group ?
>
> Hmmm, well, the problem is that if we want to add the package to our update
> group, the separate update would need to be deleted first. We can't have 2
> update requests for the same package.

It should obsolete the first one, shouldn't it?

I don't like this updates-testing schizophrenia...

Jaroslav

>         Kevin Kofler

-- 
Jaroslav ?ezn?k <jreznik at redhat.com>
Associate Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 731 455 332
Red Hat, Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com/



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr 15 10:46:42 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:46:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090415 changes
Message-ID: <20090415104642.396261B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Wed Apr 15 06:15:03 UTC 2009

New package frei0r-plugins
        Frei0r - a minimalistic plugin API for video effects
New package ifstatus
        Command line real time interface graphs using ncurses
New package perl-File-Pid
        Pid File Manipulation
New package pidgin-musictracker
        Musictracker plugin for Pidgin
New package python-twill
        Simple scripting language for Web browsing
New package python-unipath
        Alternative to Python modules os, os.path and shutil
New package rmol
        C++ library of Revenue Management and Optimisation classes and functions
New package xa
        6502/65816 cross-assembler
Updated Packages:

NetworkManager-0.7.1-2.git20090414.fc11
---------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com> - 1:0.7.1-2.git20090414
- ifcfg-rh: enable write support for wired and wifi connections

* Sun Apr 12 2009 Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com> - 1:0.7.1-1
- nm: update to 0.7.1
- nm: fix startup race with HAL causing unmanaged devices to sometimes be managed (rh #494527)


PackageKit-0.4.6-3.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 0.4.6-3
- Backport 4 important patches from upstream.


abrt-0.0.3-1.fc11
-----------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Jiri Moskovcak <jmoskovc at redhat.com> 0.0.3-1
- new version
- added bz plugin
- minor fix in reporter gui
- Configurable max size of debugdump storage rhbz#490889
- Wrap lines in report to keep the window sane sized
- Fixed gui for new daemon API
- removed unneeded code
- removed dependency on args
- new guuid hash creating
- fixed local UUID
- fixed debuginfo-install checks
- renamed MW library
- Added notification thru libnotify
- fixed parsing settings of action plugins
- added support for action plugins
- kerneloops - plugin: fail gracefully.
- Added commlayer to make dbus optional
- a lot of kerneloops fixes
- new approach for getting debuginfos and backtraces
- fixed unlocking of a debugdump
- replaced language and application plugins by analyzer plugin
- more excetpion handling
- conf file isn't needed
- Plugin's configuration file is optional
- Add curl dependency
- Added column 'user' to the gui
- Gui: set the newest entry as active (ticket#23)
- Delete and Report button are no longer active if no entry is selected (ticket#41)
- Gui refreshes silently (ticket#36)
- Added error reporting over dbus to daemon, error handling in gui, about dialog


amanda-2.6.0p2-8.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Daniel Novotny <dnovotny at redhat.com> 2.6.0p2-8
- fix #495724 (spec file fix, use "useradd -N" instead of "useradd -n")


anacron-2.3-74.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Marcela Ma??l????ov?? <mmaslano at redhat.com> 2.3-74
- 495333 fix ungrammatical job(s) in log


boinc-client-6.4.7-10.r17542svn.fc11
------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 6.4.7-10.r17542svn
- Fix lock file name in logrotate script, do not override
  global logrotate configuration (BZ#494179).


brasero-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/brasero/2.26/brasero-2.26.1.news

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 2.26.0-2
- Removed duplicate desktop source


clucene-0.9.21-3.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Karsten Hopp <karsten at redhat.com> 0.9.21-3
- bypass 'make check' on s390x, similar to ppc64


culmus-fonts-0.102-6.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Rahul Bhalerao <rbhalera at redhat.com> - 0.102-6.fc11
- Rebuild for bug #491957.


curl-7.19.4-6.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Kamil Dudka <kdudka at redhat.com> 7.19.4-6
- upstream patch fixing memory leak in lib/nss.c (#453612)
- remove redundant dependency of libcurl-devel on libssh2-devel


evolution-2.26.1-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2.fc11
- Add patch for GNOME bug #578685 (attachment bar crasher).

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1.fc11
- Update to 2.26.1


evolution-exchange-2.26.1-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1.fc11
- Update to 2.26.1


evolution-mapi-0.26.1-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 0.26.1-1
- Update to 0.26.1


fakechroot-2.9-20.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Axel Thimm <Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net> - 2.9-19
- Update to 2.9.
- Removed fakechroot-2.8-initsocketlen.patch (upstream now).
- Removed int->ssize_t readlink type change (upstream testing for type
  now).
- Removed permission fix for scripts/ldd.fake scripts/restoremode.sh
  scripts/savemode.sh (fixed upstream).

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Richard W.M. Jones <rjones at redhat.com> - 2.9-20
- Add fakechroot-scandir.patch to fix builds on Rawhide.

* Wed Mar 18 2009 Richard W.M. Jones <rjones at redhat.com> - 2.8-18
- Create a fakeroot-libs subpackage so that the package is multilib aware.


fedora-package-config-apt-10.92-3
---------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Axel Thimm <Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net> - 10.92-3
- Fix URL and Description (RH bug #484096).


fedora-package-config-smart-10.92-16
------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Axel Thimm <Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net> - 10.92-16
- Use %_arch instead of %_target_cpu.


flashrom-0-0.18.20090414svn4107.fc11
------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Peter Lemenkov <lemenkov at gmail.com> 0-0.18.20090414svn4107
- Various manpage / README fixes
- Board enable support for HP DL145 G3
- high coreboot table support
- Since now we're using ExclusiveArch


freeipmi-0.7.8-1.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jan Safranek <jsafrane at redhat.com> - 0.7.8-1
- Update to freeipmi-0.7.8


gammu-1.23.92-1.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Xavier Lamien <lxtnow at gmail.com> - 1.23.92-1
- Update release.

* Sun Apr 12 2009 Xavier Lamien <lxntow at gmail.com> - 1.23.1-1
- Update release.


gbrainy-1.1-3.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Beno??t Marcelin <sereinity at online.fr> 1.1-3
- Re-enable ppc


gcc-4.4.0-0.34
--------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 4.4.0-0.34
- update from gcc-4_4-branch
  - GCC 4.4.0-rc1
  - license changes to GPLv3+ with GCC Runtime Exception for most of the
    lib* files
  - PRs c++/28301, c++/39480, c++/39742, c++/39750, c/39613, c/39614, c/39673,
	libobjc/36610, target/39740, testsuite/35621, tree-optimization/39713
- fix another -Wshadow C++ issue (PR c++/39763)


gdb-6.8.50.20090302-19.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Jan Kratochvil <jan.kratochvil at redhat.com> - 6.8.50.20090302-19
- Fix crash on pretty-printer reading uninitialized std::string (BZ 495781).


gdm-2.26.1-1.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ray Strode <rstrode at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1


ghc-gtk2hs-0.10.0-4.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jens Petersen <petersen at redhat.com> - 0.10.0-4
- use define not global to define subpackage since it broke ?3: expansion
- require the subpackage dependency with -devel suffix


gimp-2.6.6-3.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 2:2.6.6-3
- remove rpaths from binaries (#495670)


glibc-2.9.90-16
---------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-16
- update from trunk


gnome-bluetooth-2.27.4-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.27.4-1
- Update to 2.27.4


gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11
---------------------------------
* Mon Apr 06 2009 Xavier Lamien <lxtnow at gmail.com> - 2.26.0-1
- UPdate release.

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 2.24.0-4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


gnome-devel-docs-2.26.1-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1


gnome-do-0.8.1.3-5.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 10 2009 Sindre Pedersen Bj??rdal <sindrepb at fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.1.3-5
- Fix .desktop issue, install in both autostart and applications
- Rebuild for new gnome-desktop-sharp
- Add missing gnome-desktop-sharp requires
- Fix Ndesk-dbus Requires


gnome-doc-utils-0.16.1-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.16.1-1
- Update to 0.16.1


gnome-packagekit-2.27.2-0.2.20090414git.fc11
--------------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 2.27.2-0.1.20090414git
- New git snapshot fixing several bugs

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 2.27.2-0.2.20090414git
- Reroll the tarball without the new PkMediaTypeEnum functionality which
  is present in git master PackageKit.


gnome-panel-2.26.1-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1


gnome-session-2.26.1-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-session/2.26/gnome-session-2.26.1.news


gnome-settings-daemon-2.26.1-1.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1


gnome-user-docs-2.26.1-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1


gnutls-2.6.5-1.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Tomas Mraz <tmraz at redhat.com> 2.6.5-1
- upgrade to a new upstream version, minor bugfixes only


gpm-1.20.6-3.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Zdenek Prikryl <zprikryl at redhat.com> 1.20.6-3
- created new subpackage gpm-libs (#495124)


gtkhtml3-3.26.1.1-1.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 3.26.1.1-1.fc11
- Update to 3.26.1.1


gtkwave-3.2.1-1.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Paul Howarth <paul at city-fan.org> 3.2.1-1
- update to 3.2.1


hal-info-20090414-1.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Richard Hughes <rhughes at redhat.com> - 20090330-2
- A key labelled "Music" on a Dell USB keyboard shows up in X as "XF86Tools"
  which is wrong. Reassigns the key to be "Media".

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Richard Hughes <rhughes at redhat.com> - 20090414-1
- New upstream release to fix a load of HP keymaps.


hydrogen-0.9.4-0.3.rc1.1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget [DOT] fedora [AT] gmail [DOT] com> - 0.9.4-0.3.rc1.1
- Update to 0.9.4-rc1-1


ibus-1.1.0.20090413-3.fc11
--------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Huang Peng <shawn.p.huang at gmail.com> - 1.1.0.20090413-3
- Update ibus-HEAD.patch.
- Fix bug 495431 -  ibus Release modifier doesn't work with Alt
- Fix bug 494445 -  ibus-hangul missing Hangul Han/En mode
  (and Alt_R+release hotkey)
- Update te.po

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Huang Peng <shawn.p.huang at gmail.com> - 1.1.0.20090413-2
- Update ibus-HEAD.patch.
- Change the mode of /tmp/ibus-$USER to 0700 to improve security
- Change the mode of /tmp/ibus-$USER/socket-address to 0600 to improve security
- Update as.po


ibus-chewing-1.0.7.20090414-1.fc11
----------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ding-Yi Chen <dchen at redhat.com> - 1.0.7.20090414-1
* Mon Mar 30 2009 Ding-Yi Chen <dchen at redhat.com> - 1.0.5.20090330-1
- Added tooltips.
- Revealed the sync caps lock setting.
- Fixed Right key bug.
- Added CMake policy 0011 as OLD.


iproute-2.6.29-2.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Marcela Ma??l????ov?? <mmaslano at redhat.com> - 2.6.29-2
- c3651bf4763d7247e3edd4e20526a85de459041b ip6tunnel: Fix no default 
 display of ip4ip6 tunnels
- e48f73d6a5e90d2f883e15ccedf4f53d26bb6e74 missing arpd directory


iwl4965-firmware-228.57.2.23-5.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com> - 228.57.2.23-4
- Resync with F-10 version of the package
- Update v2 to 228.57.2.23 - Should fix #457154

* Tue Apr 14 2009 kwizart < kwizart at gmail.com > - 228.57.2.23-5
- Reintroduce dist tag


javasqlite-20090409-2.fc11
--------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 20090409-2
- Don't use parallel make, Java build doesn't appear parallel clean.

* Sun Apr 12 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 20090409-1
- Update to 20090409, enable extension loading.
- Patch to actually check features of system sqlite lib at build time.


kde-settings-4.2-5.20090414svn.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2-5.20090414
- include kde-centric defaults.list
- kcmnspluginrc: include nspluginwrapper paths (#495632)


lcdproc-0.5.2-11.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 kwizart < kwizart at gmail.com > - 0.5.2-11
- Disable xmlto validation (Fix FTBFS)
- Disable default configuration (only provided as examples)


less-429-1.fc11
---------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Zdenek Prikryl <zprikryl at redhat.com> - 429-1
- Update to 429


libatasmart-0.11-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.11-1
- New upstream release


libmng-1.0.10-2.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 1.0.10-2
- Fixed install, source url, added docs for Merge Review BZ 226033.


libmodplug-0.8.5-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 1:0.8.5-1
- Update to 0.8.5, should fix #483146.


libpst-0.6.36-1.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Carl Byington <carl at five-ten-sg.com> - 0.6.36-1
- build separate -doc and -devel-doc subpackages.
- other spec file cleanup

* Wed Apr 08 2009 Carl Byington <carl at five-ten-sg.com> - 0.6.35-1
- properly add trailing mime boundary in all modes.
- build separate libpst, libpst-libs, libpst-devel rpms.


livecd-tools-023-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jeremy Katz <katzj at redhat.com> - 023-1
- Don't prompt about overwriting when making usb stick (#491234)
- Fix up livecd-iso-to-pxeboot for new syslinux paths
- Fix --xo variable expansion (Alexander Bostr??m)
- Name of EFI partitions doesn't matter for mactel mode (Jim Radford)
- Fix unterminated sed command (#492376)
- Handle kernel/squashfs mismatch when making usb stick in
  --xo mode (Alexander Bostr??m)
- Support all of the options for the 'firewall' kickstart directive
- Deal with syslinux com32 api incompat when making usb sticks (#492370)
- Add options to force fetching of repomd.xml every run (jkeating)
- Quiet restorecon (Marc Herbert)
- Fix traceback with syslinux disabled (#495269)
- Split python-imgcreate module into a subpackage


lksctp-tools-1.0.10-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Zdenek Prikryl <zprikryl at redhat.com> 1.0.10-1
- added release tag to Requires of devel and doc packages (#492531)
- Update to 1.0.10


mlocate-0.22-1
--------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Miloslav Trma?? <mitr at redhat.com> - 0.22-1
- Update to mlocate-0.22


moin-1.8.2-1.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi> 1.8.2-1
- Update to 1.8.2
- Update README-rpm to include mod_wsgi instructions
- Fixes CVE-2008-3381


mono-2.4-17.fc11
----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Toshio Kuratomi <toshio at fedoraproject.org> 2.4-17
- Update to 2.4 final.
- Statically link mono to libmono to work around bz #494026


nautilus-sendto-1.1.3-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Fri Apr 03 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 1.1.3-1
- Update to 1.1.3


nazghul-0.6.0-6.20080407cvs.fc11
--------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs at math.uh.edu> - 0.6.0-6.20080407cvs
- Tweak desktop file with proper categories (bug 485358) and fixes for other
  desktop-file-install complaints.


netpbm-10.35.62-1.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> 10.35.62-1
- update to 10.35.62
- upstream fixes pamstereogram
- fix options in pamperspective, pbmtoepson, ppmpat, pamaddnoise
  so that they match their man pages (#483011, #483070, #483243, #483245)
- avoid clashes with getline() from glibc

* Tue Mar 31 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> 10.35.61-2
- remove two hunks from security patch breaking pbmclean and pbmlife (#493015)
- fix ppmdfont and svgtopnm, thanks to Jiri Moskovcak

* Mon Mar 23 2009 Jindrich Novy <jnovy at redhat.com> 10.35.61-1
- update to 10.35.61
- upstream fixes array bound violation in pbmtog3
- drop .pbmtog3segfault patch, we fixed this some time ago already
  and it is in upstream now
- use saner exit status in ppmfade


nss-3.12.3-3.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Kai Engert <kaie at redhat.com> - 3.12.3-2
- Update to NSS 3.12.3

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Kai Engert <kaie at redhat.com> - 3.12.3-3
- ship .chk files instead of running shlibsign at install time
- include .chk file in softokn-freebl subpackage
- add patch for upstream nss bug 488350


nut-2.4.1-3.fc11
----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Michal Hlavinka <mhlavink at redhat.com> - 2.4.1-3
- udev changed group from uucp to dialout, follow the change (#494020)


openbios-1.0-0.6.svn463.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Glauber Costa <glommer at redhat.com> - 1.0.0.6
- Applied bugfix for #494075


openmpi-1.3.1-1.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1.3.1-1
- update to 1.3.1, cleanup alternatives, spec, make new vt subpackage


openoffice.org-extendedPDF-1.4-6.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Orion Poplawski <orion at cora.nwra.com> 1.4-6
- Add patch to fix bug #495777


openswan-2.6.21-4.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Avesh Agarwal <avagarwa at redhat.com> - 2.6.21-3
- Updated the Openswan-NSS porting to enable nss by default
- The patch includes README.nss for information about NSS usage

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Avesh Agarwal <avagarwa at redhat.com> - 2.6.21-4
- Updated the Openswan-NSS porting to enable nss and fipscheck by default
- fipscheck requires fipscheck-devel library


paprefs-0.9.8-1.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.9.8-1
- Update to 0.9.8


perl-Test-YAML-Valid-0.03-4.fc11
--------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Daniel P. Berrange <berrange at redhat.com> - 0.03-4.fc11
- Add perl(YAML) and perl(YAML::Syck) requirements (rhbz #495401)


phpMyAdmin-3.1.3.2-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> 3.1.3.2-1
- Upstream released 3.1.3.2 (#495768)


pm-utils-1.2.5-1.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Richard Hughes <rhughes at redhat.com> - 1.2.5-1
- New upstream version
- If running on a system that is using KMS, we will refuse to handle any video
  quirks passed to us by HAL, and we will not chvt to an empty console.
- Fix a longstanding bug in tuning scheduler powersaving knobs on SMT systems.


policycoreutils-2.0.62-10.fc11
------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 2.0.62-10
- Do not print \n, if count < 1000;


ppl-0.10.1-1.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Roberto Bagnara <bagnara at cs.unipr.it> 0.10.1-1
- Updated for PPL 0.10.1.


pyparted-2.0.12-1.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 2.0.12-1
- Upgrade to pyparted-2.0.12


python-bugzilla-0.5.1-2.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Will Woods <wwoods at redhat.com> - 0.5.1-2
- Fix missing util.py


python-dictclient-1.0.1-4.fc11
------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ricky Zhou <ricky at fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.1-4
- Change define to global.
- Remove old >= 8 conditional.


python-dtopt-0.1-5.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ricky Zhou <ricky at fedoraproject.org> - 0.1-5
- Change define to global.
- Remove unnecessary BuildRequires on python-devel.


python-tempita-0.3-3.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ricky Zhou <ricky at fedoraproject.org> - 0.3-3
- Change define to global.
- Remove old >= 8 conditional.
- Remove unnecessary BuildRequires on python-devel.


python-virtinst-0.400.3-6.fc11
------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Cole Robinson <crobinso at redhat.com> - 0.400.3-6.fc11
- More translation updates


python-weberror-0.10.1-3.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ricky Zhou <ricky at fedoraproject.org> - 0.10.1-3
- Change define to global.
- Remove unnecessary BuildRequires on python-devel.


python-webob-0.9.6.1-2.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ricky Zhou <ricky at fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.6.1-2
- Change define to global.
- Remove unnecessary BuildRequires on python-devel.


python-webtest-1.1-3.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ricky Zhou <ricky at fedoraproject.org> - 1.1-3
- Change define to global.
- Remove old >= 8 conditional.
- Remove unnecessary BuildRequires on python-devel.


python-wsgiproxy-0.1-4.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ricky Zhou <ricky at fedoraproject.org> - 0.1-4
- Change define to global.
- Remove old >= 8 conditional.
- Remove unnecessary BuildRequires on python-devel.


qemu-0.10-8.fc11
----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Glauber Costa <glommer at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-8
- Provide qemu-kvm conditional on the architecture.


qt-4.5.0-14.fc11
----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.5.0-14
- fix vrgb/vgbr corruption, disable QT_USE_FREETYPE_LCDFILTER (#490377)

* Fri Apr 10 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.5.0-13
- unneeded executable permissions for profile.d scripts


quassel-0.4.0-3.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Steven M. Parrish <tuxbrewr at fedoraproject.org> - 0.4.0-3
- Enabled KDE integration


rhpl-0.220-1
------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Chris Lumens <clumens at redhat.com> 0.220-1
- Attempt to fix an error when catching OSError (#493271).


rhythmbox-0.12.0-5.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 0.12.0-5
- Fix possible crashers in the libmusicbrainz3 code


selinux-policy-3.6.12-4.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 13 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-4
- Add fail2ban_var_lib_t
- Fixes for devicekit_power_t


smolt-1.2-4.2.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Mike McGrath <mmcgrath at redhat.com> - 1.2-4.2
- Removed fake attack


sssd-0.3.1-2.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Simo Sorce <ssorce at redhat.com> - 0.3.1-2
- Add last minute bug fixes, found in testing the package


subversion-1.6.1-3
------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Joe Orton <jorton at redhat.com> 1.6.1-3
- update to 1.6.1; disable PIE patch for the time being


supybot-0.83.3-11.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ricky Zhou <ricky at fedoraproject.org> - 0.83.3-11
- Change define to global.
- Remove old >= 8 conditional.
- Remove unnecessary BuildRequires on python-devel.


system-config-bind-4.0.12-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik at redhat.com> - 4.0.12-1
- update to 4.0.12
- startup crash (rhbz#495599)
- fix dnssec support


system-config-date-1.9.37-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.9.37-1
- pick up updated translations


system-config-date-docs-1.0.7-1.fc11
------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.7-1
- add sr at latin structure (#495591)
- pick up updated translations


system-config-network-1.5.97-1.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Harald Hoyer <harald at redhat.com> 1.5.97-1
- translation update


system-config-nfs-1.3.44-1.fc11
-------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.3.44-1
- pick up updated translations


system-config-nfs-docs-1.0.6-1.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.6-1
- add sr at latin structure (#495593)
- pick up updated translations


system-config-printer-1.1.7-1.fc11
----------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Tim Waugh <twaugh at redhat.com> 1.1.7-1
- Requires dbus-python (bug #495392).
- Updated to 1.1.7:
  - Updated translations.
  - Don't abort if the jobviewer couldn't show a notification.
  - Don't use setlocale() for locale-independent case conversion.
  - Don't assume the notification daemon can show action buttons.
  - Use case-insensitive matching for model names.
  - HPLIP compatibility fixes.
  - Fixed typo in jobviewer keyring support (Ubuntu #343156).
  - Added support for https device URIs (bug #478677).
  - Prevent traceback in monitor when connection failed (Ubuntu #343387).


system-config-samba-1.2.75-1.fc11
---------------------------------

system-config-samba-docs-1.0.6-1.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.6-1
- add sr at latin structure (#495589, sr at latin.po by Milo?? Komar??evi??)
- pick up updated translations


system-config-services-0.99.33-1.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 0.99.33-1
- pick up updated translations


system-config-services-docs-1.1.6-1.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.1.6-1
- add sr at latin structure, move po file (#495460)
- pull in updated translations


system-config-users-1.2.86-1.fc11
---------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.2.86-1
- pick up updated translations


system-config-users-docs-1.0.6-1.fc11
-------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.0.6-1
- add sr at latin structure (#495293, sr at latin.po by Milo?? Komar??evi??)
- pick up updated translations


tcp_wrappers-7.6-55.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jan F. Chadima <jchadima at redhat.com> - 7.6-55
- resolving addr when name == "" (repair of patch #220015)


udev-141-1.fc11
---------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Harald Hoyer <harald at redhat.com> 141-1
- version 141


uriparser-0.7.5-1.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Mar 06 2009 Rakesh Pandit <rakesh at fedoraproject.org> 0.7.5-1
- Upgrade to 0.7.5:
-  Improved docs
-  Test suite
- 0.7.4
-  Cleaned up code and fixed memory leaks
- 0.7.3
-  Builds for Cygwin, minor bug fix
-  Changes in build system.
-  Added: Qt Assistant documentation output
- 0.7.2
-  Improved and cleaned API


usermode-1.100-2
----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Miloslav Trma?? <mitr at redhat.com> - 1.100-1
- Update to usermode-1.100


vdr-1.6.0-20.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 1.6.0-20
- Add ugly workarounds to "fix" build with gcc 4.4 and current DVB headers.
- Use useradd -N instead of -n in scriptlets (#495731).
- Include Rolf Ahrenberg's sys_nice and ionice patches.
- Update liemikuutio patch to 1.25.

* Sat Feb 28 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 1.6.0-19
- Update liemikuutio patch to 1.24 to fix some issues with gcc 4.4.
- Apply Rolf Ahrenberg's patch to include audio and subtitles shortcut
  buttons in DVB setup menu.

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.6.0-18
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild

* Sat Jan 31 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 1.6.0-17
- Do not create the video group, require udev >= 136-1 which creates it.
- Replace ttxtsubs patch with one from new ttxtsubs upstream.
- Update to re-released liemikuutio 1.21 patch.


vdr-skinsoppalusikka-1.6.4-1.fc11
---------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 - Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi> 1.6.4-1
- 1.6.4


virt-manager-0.7.0-4.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Cole Robinson <crobinso at redhat.com> - 0.7.0-4.fc11
- More translation updates


webalizer-2.21_02-2
-------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Joe Orton <jorton at redhat.com> 2.21_02-2
- update to 2.21-02 (thanks to Robert Scheck)

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 2.20_01-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild

* Fri Sep 05 2008 Joe Orton <jorton at redhat.com> 2.20_01-1
- update to 2.20_01


xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.2-2.fc11
------------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.2-2
- radeon-modeset.patch: fix rotation + cache mmap uninit var path

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 6.12.2-1
- radeon 6.12.2


xorg-x11-server-1.6.1-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.6.1-1
- xserver 1.6.1


Summary:
Added Packages: 8
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 117






Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice





From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 11:06:29 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:36:29 +0530
Subject: GNOME 2.26.1 (was Re: Plan for todays (20090327) FESCo meeting)
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904150406s300f6deegf9574ca0195ebe77@mail.gmail.com>

>> I'd like to discuss the following little schedule oddity:
>>
>> F11 final devel freeze: April 14
>> GNOME 2.26.1 release:   April 15 (releases tend to happen in the days
>> before this)

> Sure we can discuss this.  I'm thinking though that all that needs to
> happen is a tagging request for getting the packages in post-freeze.

Was there any discussion or decision on this? Right now I am thinking
about Anjuta 2.26.1, which was released on the 14th of April.

Here is the upstream NEWS:

Updates:
- New animation to identify running builds

Bugs fixed:
#578087 ? Artwork for Symbol Database is actually not from Monodevelop
team
#564002 ? Files view shows useless tooltip

Cheerio,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From ilyes.gouta at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 11:12:28 2009
From: ilyes.gouta at gmail.com (Ilyes Gouta)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:12:28 +0100
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
Message-ID: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm running Fedora 10 on my old Thinkpad R50e, which has a Pentium M and an
intel 855GM graphics card and I'm not happy with the performance of KDE,
Kwin, Xserver and al. where sometimes, I can clearly see a given window
getting its background cleared and its content redrawn slowly. I remember I
didn't have annoying artifacts when I was running Windows, three years ago
on the same machine. I don't have composition enabled or any fancy thing in
my KDE setup. So basically, I'm asking if you guys know about any profiling
tool that would enable me to see where the system is spending its time,
especially when rendering the desktop.

Any ideas?

-Ilyes
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From mclasen at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 11:56:00 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:56:00 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239796560.14524.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 10:22 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> > I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
> > pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
> > I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.
> 
> PulseAudio is the default sound solution in Fedora, so all packages using
> sound SHOULD support it.
> 
> IMHO, we should:
> * find some solution for JACK apps to work out of the box, without
> reconfiguring PulseAudio to work on top of JACK. Maybe this involves
> running JACK on top of PulseAudio (something which currently doesn't work
> because JACK does not support non-mmap ALSA devices nor the native
> PulseAudio protocol), maybe this involves starting up JACK when needed and
> having it load the JACK modules into PulseAudio and rerouting running
> PulseAudio streams to JACK at runtime (which can be done without
> interrupting the PulseAudio streams - the problem with that solution is
> that it breaks support for multiple output devices, which work just fine
> when using PulseAudio directly), maybe something else, but in any case a
> solution is needed to make things just work.

There is work happening between PulseAudio and Jack to allow automatic
peaceful coexistence. 
See http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/device-reservation.html





From mclasen at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 11:58:48 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:58:48 -0400
Subject: GNOME 2.26.1 (was Re: Plan for todays (20090327) FESCo meeting)
In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0904150406s300f6deegf9574ca0195ebe77@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3170f42f0904150406s300f6deegf9574ca0195ebe77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239796728.14524.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 16:36 +0530, Debarshi Ray wrote:
> >> I'd like to discuss the following little schedule oddity:
> >>
> >> F11 final devel freeze: April 14
> >> GNOME 2.26.1 release:   April 15 (releases tend to happen in the days
> >> before this)
> 
> > Sure we can discuss this.  I'm thinking though that all that needs to
> > happen is a tagging request for getting the packages in post-freeze.
> 
> Was there any discussion or decision on this? Right now I am thinking
> about Anjuta 2.26.1, which was released on the 14th of April.
> 

Build it and file a ticket. 



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 12:01:55 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:01:55 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239796560.14524.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gs4ibj$t9e$1@ger.gmane.org>

Matthias Clasen wrote:
> There is work happening between PulseAudio and Jack to allow automatic
> peaceful coexistence.
> See http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/device-reservation.html

That's not coexistence, it allows only one or the other to work at a time.
It doesn't solve the real problem at all, e.g. try recording audio output
from a PulseAudio app in a JACK-based audio recorder with this "solution".

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 12:03:10 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:03:10 +0200
Subject: qt 4.5
References: <49E570E5.2000702@univ-nantes.fr>
	<49E59DE3.4060004@univ-nantes.fr> <gs4cp0$dgc$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151240.27106.jreznik@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gs4idv$t9e$2@ger.gmane.org>

Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> It should obsolete the first one, shouldn't it?

Does obsoletion also work if the EVR is the same? I'd expect it to only work
if the EVR is newer.

        Kevin Kofler



From limb at jcomserv.net  Wed Apr 15 12:05:07 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:05:07 -0500
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <gs49o0$3c1$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>
	<49E37684.5070709@jcomserv.net>	<49E3768D.30304@redhat.com>
	<49E377BB.8090606@jcomserv.net> <gs49o0$3c1$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49E5CD73.1000308@jcomserv.net>

Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Jon Ciesla wrote:
>   
>> Bah!  :)  I'm doing the libmng Merge Review.  If I take ownership, can I
>> finish it myself?
>>     
>
> Well, I guess you could close it first and then take ownership. ;-) But
> that'd be gaming the system to some extent.
>
>         Kevin Kofler
>
>   
Hmm.  I do work in Chicago. . .:)

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From mclasen at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 12:20:03 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:20:03 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <gs4ibj$t9e$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239796560.14524.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gs4ibj$t9e$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239798003.14524.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 14:01 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > There is work happening between PulseAudio and Jack to allow automatic
> > peaceful coexistence.
> > See http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/device-reservation.html
> 
> That's not coexistence, it allows only one or the other to work at a time.
> It doesn't solve the real problem at all, e.g. try recording audio output
> from a PulseAudio app in a JACK-based audio recorder with this "solution".
> 

Yes, it does solve the 'use one sound server at a time' problem. Sounds
like a good starting point to me. I have no idea how relevant your
'free-flowing sound streams' scenario is...



From martin.langhoff at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 12:20:03 2009
From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:20:03 +0200
Subject: Booting F9 kernels on XO...
Message-ID: <46a038f90904150520h7c127853h8ffabcc798f29ca@mail.gmail.com>

Summary:

 - F9 kernels don't boot on the XO from an SD card -- even if we get
the initrd to have the right modules, the initrd loads the modules,
creates the device nodes, and yet fails to mount /dev/root --

 - dsd has a nice "fixup F9 for XO" script described here
   http://www.reactivated.net/weblog/archives/2008/08/regular-linux-desktops-on-the-xo/

The script builds a custom 2.6.25 which I think pulls in a few
additional patches (sound, etc), but most importantly, it builds the
mmc related drivers statically. It also sets up an initrd.

If we try to boot with the initd, it fails. But if we skip the initrd,
the system boots.

So there are two avenues

 - Figuring out what is wrong with the initrds, and fix mkinitrd. Help
would be welcome here from people who know more about debugging
initrds :-) (is there a way to get dumped into a nash shell when it
all breaks?)

 - Build a kernel exactly like Fedora 9 kernels, but with the mmc
drivers built statically. This is what I am am doing right now,
following the nice guide at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/CustomKernel

cheers,



martin
-- 
 martin.langhoff at gmail.com
 martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff



From jwboyer at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 13:10:56 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:10:56 -0400
Subject: Booting F9 kernels on XO...
In-Reply-To: <46a038f90904150520h7c127853h8ffabcc798f29ca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46a038f90904150520h7c127853h8ffabcc798f29ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <625fc13d0904150610m65007b90n7d8bf15a5cc96c14@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 8:20 AM, Martin Langhoff
<martin.langhoff at gmail.com> wrote:
> Summary:
>
> ?- F9 kernels don't boot on the XO from an SD card -- even if we get
> the initrd to have the right modules, the initrd loads the modules,
> creates the device nodes, and yet fails to mount /dev/root --

Why are you focusing on F9?  There was a large push to get F10 working
on the XO, which mostly succeeded.
There is an even more focused pushed to get F11 working on the XO, and
I believe Chris Ball has daily images
that can be used.

josh



From martin.langhoff at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 13:42:01 2009
From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:42:01 +0200
Subject: Booting F9 kernels on XO...
In-Reply-To: <625fc13d0904150610m65007b90n7d8bf15a5cc96c14@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46a038f90904150520h7c127853h8ffabcc798f29ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<625fc13d0904150610m65007b90n7d8bf15a5cc96c14@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46a038f90904150642s2319a9d1y12dbbabaf90d5ae7@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer at gmail.com> wrote:
> Why are you focusing on F9? ?There was a large push to get F10 working

Sorry! I mis-addressed the email, was supposed to be to fedora-olpc-list.

Your question is a valid, and a bit of a FAQ - reply here:
http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/server-devel/2009-April/003223.html

cheers,


m
-- 
 martin.langhoff at gmail.com
 martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 13:59:59 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:59:59 -0400
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for Fedora
 11?
In-Reply-To: <1239747562.4354.63.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost>
	<gru7ln$o4$1@ger.gmane.org>	<20090413104513.1e665aac@leela>	<93d66b780904130947q770ea3f7ke2d9b4c20eb301e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239747562.4354.63.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49E5E85F.9090609@redhat.com>

On 04/14/2009 06:19 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 13:47 -0300, Mario Chacon wrote:
>> This driver should be work with ATI Radeon HD 3200? 
> 
> Radeon should work with every card with Radeon in its name ever (and all
> FireGLs of the same vintage). If it doesn't, file a bug. :)

Pretty sure this is filed as:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493332

(Aside: The Radeon HD 3200 is the most commonly included onboard ATI
video card in AMD OEM systems.)

~spot



From rjones at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 14:08:46 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:08:46 +0100
Subject: How to sponsor someone?
Message-ID: <20090415140846.GA11173@amd.home.annexia.org>

How do I sponsor kalev?
(https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/user/view/kalev)

The wiki instructions are obscure, and don't say in so many words what
I actually have to do.  Unless I'm looking at the wrong page of course ...

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
Read my programming blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com
Fedora now supports 75 OCaml packages (the OPEN alternative to F#)
http://cocan.org/getting_started_with_ocaml_on_red_hat_and_fedora



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Wed Apr 15 14:10:34 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:10:34 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>

On Wed, 15.04.09 10:22, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler at chello.at) wrote:

> Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> > I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
> > pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
> > I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.
> 
> PulseAudio is the default sound solution in Fedora, so all packages using
> sound SHOULD support it.
> 
> IMHO, we should:
> * find some solution for JACK apps to work out of the box, without
> reconfiguring PulseAudio to work on top of JACK. Maybe this involves

As Matthias mentioned PA will now hand over audio device access to
JACK if JACK asks for that. When JACk is done running it will hand the
access back.

> running JACK on top of PulseAudio (something which currently doesn't work
> because JACK does not support non-mmap ALSA devices nor the native
> PulseAudio protocol), maybe this involves starting up JACK when needed and
> having it load the JACK modules into PulseAudio and rerouting running
> PulseAudio streams to JACK at runtime (which can be done without
> interrupting the PulseAudio streams - the problem with that solution is
> that it breaks support for multiple output devices, which work just fine
> when using PulseAudio directly), maybe something else, but in any case a
> solution is needed to make things just work.

No. JACK is a sound server for audio production. PulseAudio is a sound
server for the desktop. Only in very few cases it makes sense to
connect them to each other -- and that should then be configured
manually by the user. While JACK is running PA should go out of the
way. And that's what the JACK folks and I have agreed on and
implemented very recently.

In an ideal world PA and JACK would be one hybrid audio server. But
that's not going to happen anytime soon and it is also questionnable
if it would make sense at all. So the only realisitic short term
solution is having JACK and PA cooperate better. And that should be
the case now. The cooepration logic is in PA 0.9.15. I don't know
which version of JACK actaully added the other side of the story.

> * once that's done, make it a requirement that sound MUST work with
> PulseAudio without manual configuration. PulseAudio MUST be the default in
> all sound-using applications. JACK SHOULD only be used if PulseAudio (and
> any of the compatible APIs, e.g. ALSA, ESD etc.) is not supported (and as I
> explained above, it needs to interoperate with PulseAudio more than it
> currently does). Likewise, aRts (the deprecated KDE 3 sound server) SHOULD
> only be used if outputting directly to PulseAudio is not possible.

JACK should not be used by anything by default, with the exception of
audio production software. 

Arts should not be used by anything at all. Let it die a peaceful
death please. (But I a m bit ignorant of KDE, so maybe I am stepping
on someone's toes by saying something bad bad about arts like that)

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Wed Apr 15 14:14:58 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:14:58 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <gs4ibj$t9e$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239796560.14524.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gs4ibj$t9e$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090415141457.GB26034@tango.0pointer.de>

On Wed, 15.04.09 14:01, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler at chello.at) wrote:

> 
> Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > There is work happening between PulseAudio and Jack to allow automatic
> > peaceful coexistence.
> > See http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/device-reservation.html
> 
> That's not coexistence, it allows only one or the other to work at a time.
> It doesn't solve the real problem at all, e.g. try recording audio output
> from a PulseAudio app in a JACK-based audio recorder with this "solution".

No. Your scenario is artificial. That's not something more than a
handful of people want to do. 

I think you are misunderstanding JACK's purpose.

Let me put it differently: you *never* want you event sound blibs and
plops mixed into your JACK pro audio stream. And hence setting up
connectivity between JACK and PA by default is simply the wrong
thing to do.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From limb at jcomserv.net  Wed Apr 15 14:25:26 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:25:26 -0500
Subject: How to sponsor someone?
In-Reply-To: <20090415140846.GA11173@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <20090415140846.GA11173@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <49E5EE56.7050809@jcomserv.net>

Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> How do I sponsor kalev?
> (https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/user/view/kalev)
>
> The wiki instructions are obscure, and don't say in so many words what
> I actually have to do.  Unless I'm looking at the wrong page of course ...
>
> Rich.
>
>   
Click on Fedora Packager CVS Commit Group, find kalev in the Sponsorship 
Queue listed below, and click Sponsor on the Right.

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From pertusus at free.fr  Wed Apr 15 14:28:01 2009
From: pertusus at free.fr (Patrice Dumas)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:28:01 +0200
Subject: How to sponsor someone?
In-Reply-To: <20090415140846.GA11173@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <20090415140846.GA11173@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <20090415142801.GC3633@free.fr>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 03:08:46PM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> How do I sponsor kalev?
> (https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/user/view/kalev)
> 
> The wiki instructions are obscure, and don't say in so many words what
> I actually have to do.  Unless I'm looking at the wrong page of course ...

It is explained here, although there aren't much practical details:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_sponsor_a_new_contributor#Sponsoring_Someone_for_Fedora_Package_Collection
There is a 'Todo queue' here, but kalev doesn't appear in this list.
But if you click on 'packager' link that is present for some of the
people in the todo queue, you'll be directed to the Sponsorship Queue
of the packager group, where kalev is.

I couldn't make any sense of why there are only some users in the
'Todo queue', maybe a bug in the fas system?

Also maybe > 6 months old entries in the Sponsorship Queue could
be automatically removed.

--
Pat



From limb at jcomserv.net  Wed Apr 15 14:28:09 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:28:09 -0500
Subject: How to sponsor someone?
In-Reply-To: <49E5EE56.7050809@jcomserv.net>
References: <20090415140846.GA11173@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<49E5EE56.7050809@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <49E5EEF9.3030201@jcomserv.net>

Jon Ciesla wrote:
> Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>> How do I sponsor kalev?
>> (https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/user/view/kalev)
>>
>> The wiki instructions are obscure, and don't say in so many words what
>> I actually have to do.  Unless I'm looking at the wrong page of 
>> course ...
>>
>> Rich.
>>
>>   
> Click on Fedora Packager CVS Commit Group, find kalev in the 
> Sponsorship Queue listed below, and click Sponsor on the Right.
>
>
This of course is all predicated upon your agreement to sponsor kalev, 
and kalev's having met the sponsorship requirements, had a review 
approved by you, etc.

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From ricky at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr 15 14:36:26 2009
From: ricky at fedoraproject.org (Ricky Zhou)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:36:26 -0400
Subject: How to sponsor someone?
In-Reply-To: <49E5EE56.7050809@jcomserv.net>
References: <20090415140846.GA11173@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<49E5EE56.7050809@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <20090415143626.GA3316@sphe.res.cmu.edu>

On 2009-04-15 09:25:26 AM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
> Click on Fedora Packager CVS Commit Group, find kalev in the Sponsorship  
> Queue listed below, and click Sponsor on the Right.
If the packager queue is too huge, you can also form the URL manually:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/sponsor/packager/kalev

Thanks,
Ricky
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From rjones at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 14:49:17 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:49:17 +0100
Subject: How to sponsor someone?
In-Reply-To: <49E5EE56.7050809@jcomserv.net>
References: <20090415140846.GA11173@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<49E5EE56.7050809@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <20090415144917.GA11430@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 09:25:26AM -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
> Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>> How do I sponsor kalev?
>> (https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/user/view/kalev)
>>
>> The wiki instructions are obscure, and don't say in so many words what
>> I actually have to do.  Unless I'm looking at the wrong page of course ...
>>
>> Rich.
>>
>>   
> Click on Fedora Packager CVS Commit Group, find kalev in the Sponsorship  
> Queue listed below, and click Sponsor on the Right.

Thanks - I've done it now.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
Read my programming blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com
Fedora now supports 75 OCaml packages (the OPEN alternative to F#)
http://cocan.org/getting_started_with_ocaml_on_red_hat_and_fedora



From jkeating at j2solutions.net  Wed Apr 15 08:40:24 2009
From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 01:40:24 -0700
Subject: Planned CVS Outage - 2009-04-15 0300 UTC
In-Reply-To: <1239740287.3689.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239740287.3689.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239784824.5734.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

The outage is over, CVS is available once again.

On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 13:18 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> Outage Notification - 2009-04-15 03:00 UTC
> 
> There will be an outage starting at 2009-04-15 03:00 UTC, which will last
> roughly 2 hours.
> 
> To convert UTC to your local time, take a look at
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UTCHowto
> or run:
> 
> date -d '2009-04-15 03:00 UTC'
> 
> Affected Services:
> 
> CVS / Source Control
> 
> Reason for Outage:
> Mass branching for F-11
> 
> Contact Information:
> Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>
> 
> Please join #fedora-admin in irc.freenode.net or respond to this email to track
> the status of this outage.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Fedora-devel-announce mailing list
> Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce
> -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
-- 
Jesse Keating RHCE      (http://jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project          (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key          (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)
identi.ca               (http://identi.ca/jkeating)
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 08:45:23 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 01:45:23 -0700
Subject: Frozen for Fedora 11
Message-ID: <1239785123.5734.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

We've reached the final freeze, as well as mass branched.  From this
point on, builds from F-11/ will go to dist-f11-updates-candidate and
builds from devel/ will go to dist-f12.  dist-f11 itself is locked.
To request a freeze override, please use the Final Freeze
Policy[1]

If you're closing bugs by doing builds, please ensure that those builds
get properly tagged for our final release.

To check the status of your particular build/package, you can look at
the contents of the 'dist-f11' tag in Koji.  This is the tag for
rawhide, and what rawhide will compose from until F11 is done.

koji latest-pkg dist-f11f10-final <foo>

It's the last mile folks, lets make it awesome!

[1]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/FinalFreezePolicy

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 15:08:42 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:08:42 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e76492710904150808w40e7b7ads604bfbcc34ce66b7@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 4:22 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
>> pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
>> I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.
>
> PulseAudio is the default sound solution in Fedora, so all packages using
> sound SHOULD support it.
>

There are two issues here.

JACK is the default for audio production software (period) I
personally do record multitrack audio and make use ladspa, lv2 etc.
Nothing beats JACK. Audio production software don't need to support
PulseAudio because people who are into audio recording/mixing won't
use it while there is Jack.

> IMHO, we should:
> * find some solution for JACK apps to work out of the box, without
> reconfiguring PulseAudio to work on top of JACK. Maybe this involves
> running JACK on top of PulseAudio (something which currently doesn't work
> because JACK does not support non-mmap ALSA devices nor the native
> PulseAudio protocol), maybe this involves starting up JACK when needed and
> having it load the JACK modules into PulseAudio and rerouting running
> PulseAudio streams to JACK at runtime (which can be done without
> interrupting the PulseAudio streams - the problem with that solution is
> that it breaks support for multiple output devices, which work just fine
> when using PulseAudio directly), maybe something else, but in any case a
> solution is needed to make things just work.
> * once that's done, make it a requirement that sound MUST work with
> PulseAudio without manual configuration. PulseAudio MUST be the default in
> all sound-using applications. JACK SHOULD only be used if PulseAudio (and
> any of the compatible APIs, e.g. ALSA, ESD etc.) is not supported (and as I
> explained above, it needs to interoperate with PulseAudio more than it
> currently does). Likewise, aRts (the deprecated KDE 3 sound server) SHOULD
> only be used if outputting directly to PulseAudio is not possible.
>
> It makes no sense to have a sound server configured by default and then have
> assorted applications not working with it. It also makes no sense to have a
> whole set of applications (JACK-using applications) require manual
> reconfiguration of the system according to a readme file shipped with the
> jack-audio-connection-kit package to even work at all.
>

Now the second issue: If you look at it that way, PulseAudio needs a
manual configuration too. Very very many people complained about sound
problems in F-10 and had to do the tsched=0 hack to make things work.
I read that even this hack is not enough for some folks.

For me, PulseAudio did not work at all, until F-10. And on F-10, I had
to do the above hack too. But still, it is choppy. I recently wiped
off PulseAudio from my system and returned to plain ALSA. Believe it
or not, every sound application is more responsive and works better
now. Even Firefox works twice faster (no exaggeration).

I do believe that making PulseAudio the default is a shame for Fedora
(and bigger shame than disabling ctrl+alt+backspace). While I have
nothing against testing and supporting pre-alpha quality software, I
don't think such should be the default on Fedora. The way it was
released by their upstream and it was introduced in Fedora are plain
wrong. The 0.9 series should have been called 0.0.0.1 or something in
that line. I agree that PulseAudio proposes nice features and if they
came to me and asked for help to get their code to alpha quality, I
would have gladly helped. But these nice features that you propose
count nothing if you can't support the most basic tasks a sound server
should support.

I also believe that PulseAudio is a cancer, and it is growing. Even if
we are going to lose a leg to get rid of this cancer, we should do it
NOW. Otherwise it will spread and become irrevocable. The topic of the
discussion should be: How can we get rid of PulseAudio? How can we ban
this project for the good of humanity?

Plain ALSA is good enough. And what do they say? "If it's not broken,
do not fix it." I do not understand the need of adding a buggy,
unfinished layer on top of good mother ALSA.

Regards,
Orcan, the "Pulse Against"



From notting at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 15:20:33 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:20:33 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904150808w40e7b7ads604bfbcc34ce66b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904150808w40e7b7ads604bfbcc34ce66b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090415152033.GC11377@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Orcan Ogetbil (oget.fedora at gmail.com) said: 
> I also believe that PulseAudio is a cancer, and it is growing. Even if
> we are going to lose a leg to get rid of this cancer, we should do it
> NOW. Otherwise it will spread and become irrevocable. The topic of the
> discussion should be: How can we get rid of PulseAudio? How can we ban
> this project for the good of humanity?

Ban this project for the good of humanity?

You know, one way to ensure you're not taken seriously is to elevate
a few thousand lines of C code to something that needs to be exterminated
for the future of the human race. To the best of my knowledge, PulseAudio
is not going to become Skynet.

(Besides, obviosly we'd need to remove Xaw, Tcl/Tk, Pascal, Ada, and about
a thousand other harmful things from Fedora first. And don't forget emacs,
progenitor of X-windows fascism everywhere!)

> Plain ALSA is good enough. And what do they say? "If it's not broken,
> do not fix it."

'Work' is a strong word. It's possibly the most baroque example of second
system software in all of Fedora.

Bill



From dcbw at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 15:25:30 2009
From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:25:30 -0400
Subject: Frozen for Fedora 11
In-Reply-To: <1239785123.5734.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239785123.5734.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239809130.22532.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 01:45 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> We've reached the final freeze, as well as mass branched.  From this
> point on, builds from F-11/ will go to dist-f11-updates-candidate and
> builds from devel/ will go to dist-f12.  dist-f11 itself is locked.
> To request a freeze override, please use the Final Freeze
> Policy[1]
> 
> If you're closing bugs by doing builds, please ensure that those builds
> get properly tagged for our final release.
> 
> To check the status of your particular build/package, you can look at
> the contents of the 'dist-f11' tag in Koji.  This is the tag for
> rawhide, and what rawhide will compose from until F11 is done.
> 
> koji latest-pkg dist-f11f10-final <foo>

Obviously 'dist-f11f10-final' isn't a real dist instance, so I assume
the real dist is actually just 'dist-f11'?

Dan

> 
> It's the last mile folks, lets make it awesome!
> 
> [1]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/FinalFreezePolicy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Fedora-devel-announce mailing list
> Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce
> -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list



From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 16:12:30 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:12:30 -0700
Subject: Frozen for Fedora 11
In-Reply-To: <1239809130.22532.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239785123.5734.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239809130.22532.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239811950.5734.11.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 11:25 -0400, Dan Williams wrote:
> > koji latest-pkg dist-f11f10-final <foo>
> 
> Obviously 'dist-f11f10-final' isn't a real dist instance, so I assume
> the real dist is actually just 'dist-f11'?

Oops, yes.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From dsd at laptop.org  Wed Apr 15 16:14:20 2009
From: dsd at laptop.org (Daniel Drake)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:14:20 -0400
Subject: Booting F9 kernels on XO...
In-Reply-To: <46a038f90904150520h7c127853h8ffabcc798f29ca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46a038f90904150520h7c127853h8ffabcc798f29ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <818423da0904150914k37193aafp2b54219f6b7841b9@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/15 Martin Langhoff <martin.langhoff at gmail.com>:
> ?- dsd has a nice "fixup F9 for XO" script described here
> ? http://www.reactivated.net/weblog/archives/2008/08/regular-linux-desktops-on-the-xo/
>
> The script builds a custom 2.6.25 which I think pulls in a few
> additional patches (sound, etc), but most importantly, it builds the
> mmc related drivers statically. It also sets up an initrd.
>
> If we try to boot with the initd, it fails. But if we skip the initrd,
> the system boots.

What's the problem?
My custom initramfs definitely boots on my XO.
Also the stock F9 one did too, but it landed a lot of errors during
boot (which took several seconds to enumerate).

> ?- Build a kernel exactly like Fedora 9 kernels, but with the mmc
> drivers built statically. This is what I am am doing right now,
> following the nice guide at
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/CustomKernel

And boot without an initramfs?
When I did this IIRC boot would fail approximately 1 in 5 attempts
with sdhci errors. Never got a chance to figure out why, but putting
in the initramfs hid the problem nicely.

Daniel



From ilyes.gouta at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 16:24:32 2009
From: ilyes.gouta at gmail.com (Ilyes Gouta)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:24:32 +0100
Subject: Frozen for Fedora 11
In-Reply-To: <1239811950.5734.11.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239785123.5734.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1239809130.22532.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239811950.5734.11.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <234fa2210904150924m36595821l299d16dfe0fef95b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

xorg-x11-drv-intel is known to be broken for some old chips. Would the fixed
version make it into final F11 iso images, even if dist-f11 is locked?

-Ilyes

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 11:25 -0400, Dan Williams wrote:
> > > koji latest-pkg dist-f11f10-final <foo>
> >
> > Obviously 'dist-f11f10-final' isn't a real dist instance, so I assume
> > the real dist is actually just 'dist-f11'?
>
> Oops, yes.
>
> --
> Jesse Keating
> Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
> identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 16:26:32 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:26:32 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> JACK should not be used by anything by default, with the exception of
> audio production software.

The problem there is: where does "desktop software" stop and "audio
production software" start? For example, Audacity (which thankfully
supports PulseAudio these days, and BTW it also supports JACK) is used by
many users who are not audio professionals, yet it is arguably also "audio
production software" (though I guess real professionals will find it too
newbieish ;-) ). It's set up for PulseAudio by default (and before that it
was trying to use OSS by default - yuck!). A tool like qsynth is also an
interesting example: that's a frontend for a MIDI software synthesizer. It
can be used to just play MIDIs or it can be used for audio production.
Right now its Fedora package is set up for JACK by default, though it can
be set to use ALSA (and then works just fine with the PulseAudio ALSA
plugin). What should those tools do? Try to autodetect what server is
running? As long as we have mutually exclusive sound servers, there will
probably always be tools which do the wrong thing by default. :-(

> Arts should not be used by anything at all. Let it die a peaceful
> death please. (But I a m bit ignorant of KDE, so maybe I am stepping 
> on someone's toes by saying something bad bad about arts like that)

aRts is just used by legacy stuff, it definitely should not be used by
anything new.

        Kevin Kofler



From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 16:35:03 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:35:03 -0700
Subject: Frozen for Fedora 11
In-Reply-To: <234fa2210904150924m36595821l299d16dfe0fef95b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239785123.5734.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239809130.22532.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239811950.5734.11.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<234fa2210904150924m36595821l299d16dfe0fef95b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239813303.5734.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 17:24 +0100, Ilyes Gouta wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> xorg-x11-drv-intel is known to be broken for some old chips. Would the fixed
> version make it into final F11 iso images, even if dist-f11 is locked?

If we get a fix for it, yes.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 16:35:49 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:35:49 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904141930.52180.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<gs41qa$c72$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <gs52d6$mqi$1@ger.gmane.org>

Juha Tuomala wrote:
> In my opinion, we should send people to manually compile and test
> the trunk and help the development

Users do not manually compile their software, and especially not from trunk.
If you want users to test your work, you need to do actually packagable
releases, even beta ones, but not completely broken ones with no stable
API/ABI and with plugins and apps in various states of brokenness and/or
bitrot.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 16:37:38 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:37:38 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904142341.38289.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<49E50D08.5060206@fedoraproject.org>
	<200904151240.16254.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <gs52gi$mqi$2@ger.gmane.org>

Juha Tuomala wrote:
> Shipping the 0.36 was a mistake and a good example of its consequences
> was a party that started using that point-of-time API in their
> project and later found out that it was just a developer snapshot
> and didn't exist anymore.

If you're talking about KitchenSync, the problem is that the OpenSync
project promised that 0.40 would be ready in time for KDE 4.0 (!) (the
ORIGINAL KDE 4.0 schedule, even without the slips!). It's due to this
wishful thinking by the OpenSync developers that KitchenSync is now broken.

        Kevin Kofler



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Wed Apr 15 16:44:28 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:44:28 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904150808w40e7b7ads604bfbcc34ce66b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904150808w40e7b7ads604bfbcc34ce66b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090415164428.GA8208@tango.0pointer.de>

On Wed, 15.04.09 11:08, Orcan Ogetbil (oget.fedora at gmail.com) wrote:

> I also believe that PulseAudio is a cancer, and it is growing. Even if
> we are going to lose a leg to get rid of this cancer, we should do it
> NOW. Otherwise it will spread and become irrevocable. The topic of the
> discussion should be: How can we get rid of PulseAudio? How can we ban
> this project for the good of humanity?

If PulseAudio is a cancer than I am the evil bio weapons scientist who
engineered it. Muahahah! Muahahahahaaaa!

Now that my plan for world domination with biologic WMDs got exposed
like this, what can I do? Oh hell, let's just do what we always
do. Hijack some nuclear weapons and hold the world hostage. Yeah?
Good!

> Plain ALSA is good enough. And what do they say? "If it's not broken,
> do not fix it." I do not understand the need of adding a buggy,
> unfinished layer on top of good mother ALSA.

You are more catholic than the pope. 

Maybe the fact that even the ALSA guys themselves think that having a
userspace sound daemon on top of ALSA like PA is a good idea and
necessary might give you a hint how distorted your view of the world
is.

Lennart, bio weapons scientist

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From martin.langhoff at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 16:48:06 2009
From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:48:06 +0200
Subject: Booting F9 kernels on XO...
In-Reply-To: <818423da0904150914k37193aafp2b54219f6b7841b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46a038f90904150520h7c127853h8ffabcc798f29ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<818423da0904150914k37193aafp2b54219f6b7841b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46a038f90904150948p64c71e10pbb5bcf23a02fd5b8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Daniel Drake <dsd at laptop.org> wrote:
> What's the problem?
> My custom initramfs definitely boots on my XO.
> Also the stock F9 one did too, but it landed a lot of errors during
> boot (which took several seconds to enumerate).

I don't doubt it boots in yours, but it doesn't boot with my F9-based
XS image.  Weird.

> And boot without an initramfs?
> When I did this IIRC boot would fail approximately 1 in 5 attempts
> with sdhci errors. Never got a chance to figure out why, but putting
> in the initramfs hid the problem nicely.

rootdelay=5 seems to hide it for me. Except that I forgot to disable
SMP so we oops when trying to mount it. Rebuilding the rpms once
more...



m
-- 
 martin.langhoff at gmail.com
 martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Wed Apr 15 16:48:13 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:48:13 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090415164812.GB8208@tango.0pointer.de>

On Wed, 15.04.09 18:26, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler at chello.at) wrote:

> 
> Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > JACK should not be used by anything by default, with the exception of
> > audio production software.
> 
> The problem there is: where does "desktop software" stop and "audio
> production software" start? For example, Audacity (which thankfully
> supports PulseAudio these days, and BTW it also supports JACK) is used by
> many users who are not audio professionals, yet it is arguably also "audio
> production software" (though I guess real professionals will find it too
> newbieish ;-) ). It's set up for PulseAudio by default (and before that it
> was trying to use OSS by default - yuck!). A tool like qsynth is also an
> interesting example: that's a frontend for a MIDI software synthesizer. It
> can be used to just play MIDIs or it can be used for audio production.
> Right now its Fedora package is set up for JACK by default, though it can
> be set to use ALSA (and then works just fine with the PulseAudio ALSA
> plugin). What should those tools do? Try to autodetect what server is
> running? As long as we have mutually exclusive sound servers, there will
> probably always be tools which do the wrong thing by default. :-(

Of course you have to make a decision somewhere. You cannot make
everyone happy. So pick the one you believe would make sense to the
largest audience and make it easy to swtch to the other backend. And
also keep in mind that the normal desktop users are probably not as
technically versed as the pro audio folks are. 

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 16:51:54 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:51:54 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <gs53ba$r3c$1@ger.gmane.org>

I wrote:
> A tool like qsynth is also an interesting example: that's a frontend for a
> MIDI software synthesizer. It can be used to just play MIDIs or it can be
> used for audio production. Right now its Fedora package is set up for JACK
> by default, though it can be set to use ALSA (and then works just fine
> with the PulseAudio ALSA plugin).

Well, actually it doesn't. It'll happily start up, but trying to actually
play anything outputs... nothing. With no error message or anything, it
just produces no sound, and AFAICT never actually connects to PulseAudio
(even if I try explicitly setting the ALSA output device to default or
pulse). The command-line fluidsynth is broken the same way. (This shows
another issue with the current situation: some programs claim to support
several APIs, but only one gets actually tested.) Well, at least there's
timidity++ which actually works...

        Kevin Kofler



From opensource at till.name  Wed Apr 15 16:55:03 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:55:03 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <gs52d6$mqi$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> <gs52d6$mqi$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904151855.16611.opensource@till.name>

On Mi April 15 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > In my opinion, we should send people to manually compile and test
> > the trunk and help the development
>
> Users do not manually compile their software, and especially not from
> trunk. If you want users to test your work, you need to do actually
> packagable releases, even beta ones, but not completely broken ones with no
> stable API/ABI and with plugins and apps in various states of brokenness
> and/or bitrot.

Also one needs a configuration file that should work with the software or at 
least some documentation about how to create one. So if someone has this for 
the syncml (for nokia devices) and the file plugin, please share it with me. 
:-)

Regards,
Till
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From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Wed Apr 15 17:03:30 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:03:30 +0300
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <gs52gi$mqi$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904151240.16254.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<gs52gi$mqi$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904152003.30799.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>




On Wednesday 15 April 2009 19:37:38 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > Shipping the 0.36 was a mistake and a good example of its consequences
> > was a party that started using that point-of-time API in their
> > project and later found out that it was just a developer snapshot
> > and didn't exist anymore.
> 
> If you're talking about KitchenSync

KitchenSync is a GUI, it doesn't provide an API.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 17:09:11 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:09:11 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904151240.16254.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<gs52gi$mqi$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904152003.30799.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <gs54bn$td4$1@ger.gmane.org>

Juha Tuomala wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 April 2009 19:37:38 Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Juha Tuomala wrote:
>> > Shipping the 0.36 was a mistake and a good example of its consequences
>> > was a party that started using that point-of-time API in their
>> > project and later found out that it was just a developer snapshot
>> > and didn't exist anymore.
>> 
>> If you're talking about KitchenSync
> 
> KitchenSync is a GUI, it doesn't provide an API.

But it uses one, which happens to be the libopensync 0.3x one in the KDE 4
releases and thus the brokenness which led KDE upstream to disable it in
KDE 4.2. And they chose that API based on (false) assurance from the
OpenSync developers that 0.40 would be ready in time for KDE 4.0, then 4.1,
it had nothing whatsoever to do with distros packaging it.

        Kevin Kofler



From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Wed Apr 15 18:03:02 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:03:02 +0300
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <gs54bn$td4$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904152003.30799.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<gs54bn$td4$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904152103.02761.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>




On Wednesday 15 April 2009 20:09:11 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > On Wednesday 15 April 2009 19:37:38 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >> Juha Tuomala wrote:
> >> > Shipping the 0.36 was a mistake and a good example of its consequences
> >> > was a party that started using that point-of-time API in their
> >> > project and later found out that it was just a developer snapshot
> >> > and didn't exist anymore.
> >> 
> >> If you're talking about KitchenSync
> > 
> > KitchenSync is a GUI, it doesn't provide an API.
> 
> But it uses one, which happens to be the libopensync 0.3x one in the KDE 4
> releases and thus the brokenness which led KDE upstream to disable it in
> KDE 4.2. And they chose that API based on (false) assurance from the
> OpenSync developers that 0.40 would be ready in time for KDE 4.0, then 4.1,
> it had nothing whatsoever to do with distros packaging it.

You're referring to a problem that has been solved already. 

I gave an example of problem that could happen again. Fedora 
should not repeatedly lead some third party project into wasting 
manhours by distributing and hinting to use useless dead API.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 18:28:48 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:28:48 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904141930.52180.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> <gs41qa$c72$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <1239820128.4354.93.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 13:03 +0300, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday 15 April 2009 10:19:38 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > But in the thread you pointed me to, the one who actually does the work (D.
> > Gollub) was in favor of keeping it around.
> 
> Yes, because he wants to protect the project's reputation. Dropping 
> it temporarily from distro may give wrong message to the community 
> (which I don't agree btw).
> 
> In my opinion, we should send people to manually compile and test 
> the trunk and help the development, not to ask support for dead release.

What I want is to be able to synchronize my damn contacts, and for other
people to do the same. Which you can't do with anything but 0.22. I
can't contribute to development because I don't code and there's nothing
you can usefully test, because trunk doesn't do any synchronization of
any real data. I just want to use my shit for a change. is that so
terrible?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 18:33:14 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:33:14 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <200904151855.16611.opensource@till.name>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> <gs52d6$mqi$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151855.16611.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <1239820394.4354.97.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 18:55 +0200, Till Maas wrote:
> On Mi April 15 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > > In my opinion, we should send people to manually compile and test
> > > the trunk and help the development
> >
> > Users do not manually compile their software, and especially not from
> > trunk. If you want users to test your work, you need to do actually
> > packagable releases, even beta ones, but not completely broken ones with no
> > stable API/ABI and with plugins and apps in various states of brokenness
> > and/or bitrot.
> 
> Also one needs a configuration file that should work with the software or at 
> least some documentation about how to create one. So if someone has this for 
> the syncml (for nokia devices) and the file plugin, please share it with me. 
> :-)

If you're talking about 0.3, forget it. For 0.22, there's a commented
version in the package as the
file /usr/share/opensync/defaults/syncml-obex-client . You may also want
to search the opensync site for pages that mention your device by name,
or just google for your device name and 'opensync', as syncml is fairly
finicky and you may find it needs some particular settings to work
right. Or just won't work right at all no matter what you do, like my
Nokia 6300. In which case the gnokii plugin may do the trick, for
syncing contacts.

For Mandriva I used to have the old KDE 3.5 Kitchensync packaged, which
was a great opensync GUI as it actually presented the module
configurations in a nice abstracted pointy-clicky way. But we can't
really realistically package it for Fedora 11, it'd be a pain to extract
it from kdenetwork and build it with all the old KDE 3 deps.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 18:36:24 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:36:24 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 18:20 -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 18:14 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> >
> >> We aren't whining.
> >>
> >> We are fiercely fighting to prevent serious harm to Fedora's usability.
> >
> > Oh, come on, quit exaggerating. This is a pretty trivial issue. Grow a
> > sense of perspective.
> 
> Adam obviously has not given much thought to the ramifications this
> change has.  Hey Adam, why don't you pretend you are sitting behind a
> help desk trying to help out newbies?  Maybe it is *you* who needs to
> grow some grey matter.

Heh...that's funny.

awilliamson at forum.mandriva.com: Total posts:  25452
[4.15% of total / 17.23 posts per day] 

AdamW at fedoraforum.org: 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 385 

not to mention countless posts on osnews, distrowatch and zillions of
tiny blogs all over Teh Intarwebs, the vast majority of which were,
precisely, helping out newbies.

I don't usually bother with arguments based on personal reputation, but
you clearly have no idea what I've been doing for a living for a very
long time. :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From paul at xelerance.com  Wed Apr 15 18:50:05 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:50:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:

> Heh...that's funny.

> you clearly have no idea what I've been doing for a living for a very
> long time. :)

> Fedora QA Community Monkey

Ahh, so this is about job continuity[1]? :)

Paul
[1] It's a joke. Sorry, couldn't resist.



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 18:59:03 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:59:03 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 14:50 -0400, Paul Wouters wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > Heh...that's funny.
> 
> > you clearly have no idea what I've been doing for a living for a very
> > long time. :)
> 
> > Fedora QA Community Monkey
> 
> Ahh, so this is about job continuity[1]? :)
> 
> Paul
> [1] It's a joke. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
Total cost: about twenty seconds (time to reboot vs. time to restart X).
Killing X kills all X apps in any case, so they're not going to lose any
data rebooting that they wouldn't have lost anyway by doing
ctrl-alt-backspace. Or are our newbies running emacs in virtual consoles
now?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 19:12:50 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:12:50 -0700
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239822770.4354.103.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 12:12 +0100, Ilyes Gouta wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm running Fedora 10 on my old Thinkpad R50e, which has a Pentium M
> and an intel 855GM graphics card and I'm not happy with the
> performance of KDE, Kwin, Xserver and al. where sometimes, I can
> clearly see a given window getting its background cleared and its
> content redrawn slowly. I remember I didn't have annoying artifacts
> when I was running Windows, three years ago on the same machine. I
> don't have composition enabled or any fancy thing in my KDE setup. So
> basically, I'm asking if you guys know about any profiling tool that
> would enable me to see where the system is spending its time,
> especially when rendering the desktop.

I'm fairly sure performance regressions are one of the known issues with
older Intel chips (pre-i915, basically) on the newer versions of the
intel driver, so you may want to check redhat and freedesktop bugzillas
first to see if anyone's reported similar problems.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 19:15:35 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:15:35 -0700
Subject: qt 4.5
In-Reply-To: <gs4idv$t9e$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49E570E5.2000702@univ-nantes.fr>
	<49E59DE3.4060004@univ-nantes.fr> <gs4cp0$dgc$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151240.27106.jreznik@redhat.com>  <gs4idv$t9e$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239822935.4354.106.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 14:03 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> > It should obsolete the first one, shouldn't it?
> 
> Does obsoletion also work if the EVR is the same? I'd expect it to only work
> if the EVR is newer.

No, it works like Requires or Provides or anything else. If you don't
version the obsolete it will obsolete any package of this name. So
foobar-1.0-1fc11 with a line:

Obsoletes: oldfoo

will obsolete oldfoo-2.0-1fc11, or oldfoo-1.0-15fc11, or oldfoo-
*anything*.

That's why obsoletes ought to be versioned (something like Obsoletes:
oldfoo < 1.0-1), so that they don't come back to bite you in future -
for instance, if the name changes back.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 19:20:37 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:20:37 -0700
Subject: Any plans to upgrade radeonhd to 1.2.5 (DRI enabled) for
 Fedora 11?
In-Reply-To: <49E5E85F.9090609@redhat.com>
References: <938571.31062.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1239586712.21284.0.camel@localhost> <gru7ln$o4$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090413104513.1e665aac@leela>
	<93d66b780904130947q770ea3f7ke2d9b4c20eb301e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239747562.4354.63.camel@adam.local.net> <49E5E85F.9090609@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239823237.4354.108.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 09:59 -0400, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> On 04/14/2009 06:19 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 13:47 -0300, Mario Chacon wrote:
> >> This driver should be work with ATI Radeon HD 3200? 
> > 
> > Radeon should work with every card with Radeon in its name ever (and all
> > FireGLs of the same vintage). If it doesn't, file a bug. :)
> 
> Pretty sure this is filed as:
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493332
> 
> (Aside: The Radeon HD 3200 is the most commonly included onboard ATI
> video card in AMD OEM systems.)

Doesn't sound the same, as that report concerns the case where you
manually enable modesetting (which I threw in as a test case so we can
get useful bug reports for r600+ chipsets to improve the modesetting
support in future). By default modesetting is disabled for these chips,
so this isn't a problem out of the box.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 19:24:57 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:24:57 -0700
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239823497.4354.110.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 18:26 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > JACK should not be used by anything by default, with the exception of
> > audio production software.
> 
> The problem there is: where does "desktop software" stop and "audio
> production software" start? For example, Audacity (which thankfully
> supports PulseAudio these days, and BTW it also supports JACK) is used by
> many users who are not audio professionals, yet it is arguably also "audio
> production software" (though I guess real professionals will find it too
> newbieish ;-) ).

Practically speaking, you nailed it right there. There's a fairly small
and well-defined circle of professional audio production apps that
serious creators use, that use JACK by default, and that no-one would
want to be any other way. Everyone involved - the authors and
maintainers of JACK, Pulse, and the apps in question - knows what's
what, so there's not really any practical problem here.

To anyone with sufficient knowledge (and everyone involved has that),
"should this app use Pulse or JACK?" is a pretty simple question to
answer. Audacity is a no-brainer to be Pulse by default.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From mcepl at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 19:25:27 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:25:27 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904141930.52180.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> <gs41qa$c72$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <7uohb6-fgd.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-15, 10:03 GMT, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> In my opinion, we should send people to manually compile and 
> test the trunk and help the development, not to ask support for 
> dead release.

i.e., there is no version in a distro, right? Or do you seriously 
suggest that Fedora (and other distros) are supposed to package 
stuff which even upstream maintainers are not willing to release?

> Once 0.40 is released,

Which will happen when exactly?

Matej



From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 19:44:12 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:44:12 -0400
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <1239822770.4354.103.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239822770.4354.103.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1239824652.8860.3049.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 12:12 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 12:12 +0100, Ilyes Gouta wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I'm running Fedora 10 on my old Thinkpad R50e, which has a Pentium M
> > and an intel 855GM graphics card and I'm not happy with the
> > performance of KDE, Kwin, Xserver and al. where sometimes, I can
> > clearly see a given window getting its background cleared and its
> > content redrawn slowly. I remember I didn't have annoying artifacts
> > when I was running Windows, three years ago on the same machine. I
> > don't have composition enabled or any fancy thing in my KDE setup. So
> > basically, I'm asking if you guys know about any profiling tool that
> > would enable me to see where the system is spending its time,
> > especially when rendering the desktop.
> 
> I'm fairly sure performance regressions are one of the known issues with
> older Intel chips (pre-i915, basically) on the newer versions of the
> intel driver, so you may want to check redhat and freedesktop bugzillas
> first to see if anyone's reported similar problems.

There's at least one known problem with 855 and 865, which is that we
don't quite have the cache flushing logic right yet (partly chipset
bugs, partly inadequate CPUs on those boards), which means you end up
invalidating all write-back mappings on every buffer you ask the GPU to
execute (which means cache flush, which means a lot of memory write
traffic).  Not the fastest thing ever.

If this is what you're hitting, sysprof would show you spending an
inordinate amount of time in i915_gem_execbuffer() in the kernel.

sysprof is an _awesome_ tool, by the way.

- ajax
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From paul at xelerance.com  Wed Apr 15 20:27:11 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:27:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151621410.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:

> Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
> is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
> Total cost: about twenty seconds (time to reboot vs. time to restart X).

Oh. it is a secret project to test data loss for ext4!

> Killing X kills all X apps in any case, so they're not going to lose any
> data rebooting that they wouldn't have lost anyway by doing
> ctrl-alt-backspace.

UNEXPECTED FILE INCONSISTENTY, please run fsck manually

We'll see if the newbies can find /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00 as their
disk and see if the figure out the "-y" option in time for F12 :)

Paul
ps. This is slightly less of a joke. It's the real difference of having or
not having ctlr-alt-bksp (or alt-sysrq-o, or was it alt-sysrq-r? and did I
have to wait for it to print 'OK' before hitting alt-sysrq-b again? oh wait
sysctl.conf had this disabled.)



From sandeen at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 20:32:24 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:32:24 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151621410.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151621410.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <49E64458.1080401@redhat.com>

Paul Wouters wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
>> Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
>> is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
>> Total cost: about twenty seconds (time to reboot vs. time to restart X).
> 
> Oh. it is a secret project to test data loss for ext4!
> 
>> Killing X kills all X apps in any case, so they're not going to lose any
>> data rebooting that they wouldn't have lost anyway by doing
>> ctrl-alt-backspace.
> 
> UNEXPECTED FILE INCONSISTENTY, please run fsck manually

I've been doing my damnedest to not follow this thread, but ... neither
ctrl-alt-backspace nor a reboot should result in a corrupted filesytsem
or an unclean fs shutdown....

-Eric



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 21:12:56 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:12:56 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <7uohb6-fgd.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904141930.52180.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> <gs41qa$c72$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<7uohb6-fgd.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <1239829976.4354.119.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 21:25 +0200, Matej Cepl wrote:
> On 2009-04-15, 10:03 GMT, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > In my opinion, we should send people to manually compile and 
> > test the trunk and help the development, not to ask support for 
> > dead release.
> 
> i.e., there is no version in a distro, right?

Yes, Juha's proposal is that we should drop opensync entirely. I can
honestly speaking see his logic, but personally I'd rather have 0.22
just because I want to have the damn functionality in the distro.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 21:15:34 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:15:34 -0600
Subject: Intent to EOL jlint
Message-ID: <870180fe0904151415p7f6ad15es9619c7c65efc1444@mail.gmail.com>

I rescued jlint from the orphanage awhile back when Ville decided to
drop it.  Now we have findbugs in Fedora, a much more capable tool
than jlint.  Also, jlint upstream has effectively declared that he
will never develop jlint again.  I don't see the point in keeping the
old jlint tool around anymore.  If somebody wants it, I'll gladly pass
ownership.  If I don't hear from someone by a week from today, I'll
follow the EOL process for this package.

Regards,
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From behdad at behdad.org  Wed Apr 15 21:32:11 2009
From: behdad at behdad.org (Behdad Esfahbod)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:32:11 -0400
Subject: sh broken in rawhide?
Message-ID: <49E6525B.4020907@behdad.org>

Hey,

Can one of the bash maintainers please check this bug:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=495772

It's breaking rebuild of preload, and is generally a very bad breakage to ship 
with IMHO.

Thanks,
behdad



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 21:31:37 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:31:37 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<gs52d6$mqi$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151855.16611.opensource@till.name>
	<1239820394.4354.97.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <gs5jnp$er2$2@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> For Mandriva I used to have the old KDE 3.5 Kitchensync packaged, which
> was a great opensync GUI as it actually presented the module
> configurations in a nice abstracted pointy-clicky way. But we can't
> really realistically package it for Fedora 11, it'd be a pain to extract
> it from kdenetwork and build it with all the old KDE 3 deps.

* It's actually in kdepim, not kdenetwork.
* I think it would be quite feasible to package for someone sufficiently
motivated.
* I could even look into building it from the kdepim3 SRPM (which currently
builds only a compatibility libkcal).
* It might even work with the KDE 4 libopensync-plugin-kdepim given that in
my patch I use RTLD_DEEPBIND when loading the module which links to the KDE
4 libraries, so hopefully that avoids the symbol conflicts. Though that has
yet to be tested.

        Kevin Kofler



From drago01 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 21:43:46 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:43:46 +0200
Subject: qt 4.5
In-Reply-To: <1239822935.4354.106.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49E570E5.2000702@univ-nantes.fr> <49E59DE3.4060004@univ-nantes.fr>
	<gs4cp0$dgc$1@ger.gmane.org> <200904151240.27106.jreznik@redhat.com>
	<gs4idv$t9e$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239822935.4354.106.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904151443q41090e38if40871f10a2077c1@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 14:03 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
>> > It should obsolete the first one, shouldn't it?
>>
>> Does obsoletion also work if the EVR is the same? I'd expect it to only work
>> if the EVR is newer.
>
> No, it works like Requires or Provides or anything else. If you don't
> version the obsolete it will obsolete any package of this name. So
> foobar-1.0-1fc11 with a line:
>
> Obsoletes: oldfoo
>
> will obsolete oldfoo-2.0-1fc11, or oldfoo-1.0-15fc11, or oldfoo-
> *anything*.
>
> That's why obsoletes ought to be versioned (something like Obsoletes:
> oldfoo < 1.0-1), so that they don't come back to bite you in future -
> for instance, if the name changes back.

They are talking about an update obsoletes and older one in bodhi.
Not package obsoletes an other package.


Well deleting the old update and adding it to the new group should work.



From laurent.rineau__fedora at normalesup.org  Wed Apr 15 21:56:17 2009
From: laurent.rineau__fedora at normalesup.org (Laurent Rineau)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:56:17 +0200
Subject: Upgrade path from F-10+update to F-11
Message-ID: <200904152356.17833@rineau.tsetse>

Unless I missed something, there is a known problem about releasing updates 
for F-10 while F-11 is frozen. The evr of the update for F-10 must be 
carrefully choosen so that there exists an upgrade path between an updated 
F-10 and F-11 (from media, without online updates).

Is there a recommended way to deal with that? Are evr ending with .f10.1, 
.f10.2, and so on, are those evr a general way to deal with the upgrade path 
during the freeze of F-11 (and more generally during the freeze of rawhide)? I 
do not see any specific note about that in Packaging:NamingGuidelines on the 
wiki.

-- 
Laurent Rineau
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LaurentRineau



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 21:58:42 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:58:42 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904152003.30799.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<gs54bn$td4$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904152103.02761.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <gs5lak$kh9$1@ger.gmane.org>

Juha Tuomala wrote:
> You're referring to a problem that has been solved already.

It's not solved at all, KDE is stuck with no KitchenSync for the foreseeable
future. Removing stuff is not a solution.

> I gave an example of problem that could happen again.

Sure, it could happen again if people are stupid enough to still believe the
OpenSync project's promised release dates. Hopefully by now they know
better.

What you don't understand is that projects base their decisions on those
schedules, if you promise the moon and - at the promised time - deliver a
broken toy rocket which explodes as soon as you leave the atmosphere and is
missing half of its scientific instruments because they don't fit into the
new plugs you replaced the old ones with at a time at which the rocket
should have undergone its first tests, saying the moon rocket has been
delayed for some unknown time period, you WILL cause trouble. If the
OpenSync project had been upfront about the release date of 0.40 being
completely unknown, we'd have avoided some of the disasters. (0.36 probably
wouldn't have landed in Fedora either in that case, by the way.)

As for Fedora allegedly misleading projects into thinking 0.36 is stable,
while I doubt that's the case (which project are you talking about?),
that's solved anyway with the reversion to 0.22.

And FWIW, 0.36 had more apps and plugins working with it than 0.38 now does.
While I'm not familiar with the project's details, I do believe continuing
to break the API again instead of focusing on stabilizing 0.36 and
releasing a 0.40 based on it was about the most counterproductive move the
OpenSync project could have done. Is there any explanation of:
* what API changes (complete list) happened from 0.36 to 0.38,
* how to port apps and plugins (essential information for EVERY API change),
* WHY each post-0.36 API change was made and in particular
* why it absolutely had to be done before 0.40 when it was already running
late, rather than waiting for 0.50, 0.60 or whatever and finally
* its time impact on the 0.40 release and on getting apps/plugins ported?
A 0.40 release with an imperfect API would have been much better than none
at all. A really perfect API can't exist anyway.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 22:03:43 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 00:03:43 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151621410.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E64458.1080401@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gs5ljv$kh9$2@ger.gmane.org>

Eric Sandeen wrote:
> I've been doing my damnedest to not follow this thread, but ... neither
> ctrl-alt-backspace nor a reboot should result in a corrupted filesytsem
> or an unclean fs shutdown....

If their system does not respond to attempts to reboot from the menu (or in
some cases even if it would because they don't even bother trying), users
will just hit the reset button or pull the plug, and in that case the file
system has no time to clean up anything.

        Kevin Kofler



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 22:07:39 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:07:39 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <gs5jnp$er2$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> <gs52d6$mqi$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151855.16611.opensource@till.name>
	<1239820394.4354.97.camel@adam.local.net> <gs5jnp$er2$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239833259.4354.122.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 23:31 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Adam Williamson wrote:
> > For Mandriva I used to have the old KDE 3.5 Kitchensync packaged, which
> > was a great opensync GUI as it actually presented the module
> > configurations in a nice abstracted pointy-clicky way. But we can't
> > really realistically package it for Fedora 11, it'd be a pain to extract
> > it from kdenetwork and build it with all the old KDE 3 deps.
> 
> * It's actually in kdepim, not kdenetwork.

Sorry, you're right, I was going off memory, should have checked :)

> * I think it would be quite feasible to package for someone sufficiently
> motivated.

Oh yes, it's certainly possible. I just didn't think anyone with the
skills to do it quickly would care enough. I could *do* it, but it'd
take me a while, and I don't have the time.

> * I could even look into building it from the kdepim3 SRPM (which currently
> builds only a compatibility libkcal).
> * It might even work with the KDE 4 libopensync-plugin-kdepim given that in
> my patch I use RTLD_DEEPBIND when loading the module which links to the KDE
> 4 libraries, so hopefully that avoids the symbol conflicts. Though that has
> yet to be tested.

Certainly if you have the time it'd be a great thing to do, thanks a lot
if you do try :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 22:08:13 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:08:13 -0700
Subject: qt 4.5
In-Reply-To: <f6ca9fed0904151443q41090e38if40871f10a2077c1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49E570E5.2000702@univ-nantes.fr>
	<49E59DE3.4060004@univ-nantes.fr> <gs4cp0$dgc$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151240.27106.jreznik@redhat.com> <gs4idv$t9e$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239822935.4354.106.camel@adam.local.net>
	<f6ca9fed0904151443q41090e38if40871f10a2077c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239833293.4354.123.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 23:43 +0200, drago01 wrote:

> They are talking about an update obsoletes and older one in bodhi.
> Not package obsoletes an other package.
> 
> 
> Well deleting the old update and adding it to the new group should work.

Oh, sorry, thanks for the clarification - didn't catch that.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 22:05:40 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 00:05:40 +0200
Subject: qt 4.5
References: <49E570E5.2000702@univ-nantes.fr>
	<49E59DE3.4060004@univ-nantes.fr> <gs4cp0$dgc$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151240.27106.jreznik@redhat.com>
	<gs4idv$t9e$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239822935.4354.106.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <gs5lnk$kh9$3@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> No, it works like Requires or Provides or anything else. If you don't
> version the obsolete it will obsolete any package of this name. So
> foobar-1.0-1fc11 with a line:
> 
> Obsoletes: oldfoo
> 
> will obsolete oldfoo-2.0-1fc11, or oldfoo-1.0-15fc11, or oldfoo-
> *anything*.
> 
> That's why obsoletes ought to be versioned (something like Obsoletes:
> oldfoo < 1.0-1), so that they don't come back to bite you in future -
> for instance, if the name changes back.

I'm talking about Bodhi's obsoletion of updates, which has basically nothing
to do with the Obsoletes: tag. I know how the Obsoletes: tag works.

        Kevin Kofler



From a.badger at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 22:15:12 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:15:12 -0700
Subject: Upgrade path from F-10+update to F-11
In-Reply-To: <200904152356.17833@rineau.tsetse>
References: <200904152356.17833@rineau.tsetse>
Message-ID: <49E65C70.9050202@gmail.com>

Laurent Rineau wrote:
> Unless I missed something, there is a known problem about releasing updates 
> for F-10 while F-11 is frozen. The evr of the update for F-10 must be 
> carrefully choosen so that there exists an upgrade path between an updated 
> F-10 and F-11 (from media, without online updates).
> 
> Is there a recommended way to deal with that? Are evr ending with .f10.1, 
> .f10.2, and so on, are those evr a general way to deal with the upgrade path 
> during the freeze of F-11 (and more generally during the freeze of rawhide)? I 
> do not see any specific note about that in Packaging:NamingGuidelines on the 
> wiki.
> 
I believe that we don't guarantee an upgrade path from FN + updates to
FN+1 w/out updates.  We do want you to push updates to FN + 1 if you're
pushing higher NEVR's to FN (and bodhi should allow that now).

If you want a change only in FN, you can use the trick of adding a .X
after the %{?dist} tag.

-Toshio

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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 15 22:21:00 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 00:21:00 +0200
Subject: Upgrade path from F-10+update to F-11
References: <200904152356.17833@rineau.tsetse>
Message-ID: <gs5mkd$o1f$1@ger.gmane.org>

Laurent Rineau wrote:
> Unless I missed something, there is a known problem about releasing
> updates for F-10 while F-11 is frozen. The evr of the update for F-10 must
> be carrefully choosen so that there exists an upgrade path between an
> updated F-10 and F-11 (from media, without online updates).

No, an update path from F10 to F11 must be maintained, but that's from
F10+updates to F11+updates. IMHO it's completely useless to bother with
F10+updates to F11 GA (and it's also not common practice to worry about
that: all of KDE had a higher EVR in F9 updates than in F10 GA at the F10
release time, we made the newer KDE available as a 0-day update for F10,
but it didn't make the release) as that'll only help those few people who
update on release day and those are the ones most likely to be able to fix
upgrade path issues anyway. F10 updates will move on anyway. There are ways
to include updates when upgrading now (e.g. preupgrade can do it), and for
those folks who don't do that, running a regular yum update on their F11
once should fix their system.

What you DO need to guarantee is that anything pushed as an F10 update also
gets either tagged into the F11 release or pushed as an F11 update.

> Is there a recommended way to deal with that? Are evr ending with .f10.1,
> .f10.2, and so on, are those evr a general way to deal with the upgrade
> path during the freeze of F-11 (and more generally during the freeze of
> rawhide)?

These will work, but they're not really the ideal solution if the changes
you're making are also needed in F11. And this technique won't work for
version upgrades in any case.


The way to deal with EVRs is: if you push an F10 update:
* ask yourself if it makes sense to get it tagged into F11 final even during
the freeze. If so, please request the tag from rel-eng as soon as possible.
Make sure you give a rationale of why this should get tagged.
* if you think it doesn't make sense or if rel-eng rejects your tag request,
queue it as an F11 update as soon as Bodhi starts accepting them, which
should be soon.

        Kevin Kofler



From herrold at owlriver.com  Wed Apr 15 22:26:49 2009
From: herrold at owlriver.com (R P Herrold)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:26:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <1239829976.4354.119.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904141930.52180.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<gs41qa$c72$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<7uohb6-fgd.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<1239829976.4354.119.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0904151818420.29256@arj.bjyevire.pbz>

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:

> Yes, Juha's proposal is that we should drop opensync entirely. I can
> honestly speaking see his logic, but personally I'd rather have 0.22
> just because I want to have the damn functionality in the distro.

OpenSync is needed for the 'barry' project's tools as part of 
connecting to Blackberry devices, and is, I think, part of 
Fedora

 	http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/packageinfo?packageID=7118

and has open bugs

 	https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?component=barry&product=Fedora

The use of the later (beta) OpenSync version at Fedora has 
caused heartburn upstream at that project

 	http://www.netdirect.ca/software/packages/barry/

-- Russ herrold



From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 22:27:36 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:27:36 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <gs5ljv$kh9$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151621410.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E64458.1080401@redhat.com>  <gs5ljv$kh9$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239834456.3622.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 00:03 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> If their system does not respond to attempts to reboot from the menu (or in
> some cases even if it would because they don't even bother trying), users
> will just hit the reset button or pull the plug, and in that case the file
> system has no time to clean up anything.

Which still shouldn't cause a need for an interactive fsck session.
That's why the journal is there.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jlaska at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 23:00:24 2009
From: jlaska at redhat.com (James Laska)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:00:24 -0400
Subject: 2009-04-16 - Fedora Test Day - yum-presto
Message-ID: <1239836424.30101.21.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>

Greetings testers,

This Thursday, Seth Vidal and Luke Macken bring us deltarpm support in
Fedora 11.  This feature is made possible by way of the yum-presto
plugin.  Presto, best stated in the feature page [1], "allows you to
download the difference (called the delta) between the package you have
installed and the one you want to update to. This can reduce the
download size of updates by 60% - 80%."  

We'll be joined by Petr Sklenar and Jan Huta? who will help guide test
efforts for the day.  Testing will start with fresh Fedora 11 Beta
installs and be upgraded to Snapshot#1 using presto.  

If you find yourself disgruntled when notified of a large number of
Fedora updates, please join #fedora-qa this Thursday, April 16, 2009 to
help test yum-presto.  Additional details available at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:Presto_2009-04-16.

Thanks,
James

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Presto
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From sandeen at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 23:05:14 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:05:14 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239834456.3622.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151621410.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E64458.1080401@redhat.com>
	<gs5ljv$kh9$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239834456.3622.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E6682A.5010105@redhat.com>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 00:03 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> If their system does not respond to attempts to reboot from the menu (or in
>> some cases even if it would because they don't even bother trying), users
>> will just hit the reset button or pull the plug, and in that case the file
>> system has no time to clean up anything.
> 
> Which still shouldn't cause a need for an interactive fsck session.
> That's why the journal is there.

Thank you.

-Eric



From jvonau at shaw.ca  Wed Apr 15 23:06:50 2009
From: jvonau at shaw.ca (Jerry Vonau)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:06:50 -0500
Subject: [Server-devel] Booting F9 kernels on XO...
In-Reply-To: <818423da0904150914k37193aafp2b54219f6b7841b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46a038f90904150520h7c127853h8ffabcc798f29ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<818423da0904150914k37193aafp2b54219f6b7841b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239836810.2837.8.camel@f9.vonau.ca>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 12:14 -0400, Daniel Drake wrote: 
> 2009/4/15 Martin Langhoff <martin.langhoff at gmail.com>:
> >  - dsd has a nice "fixup F9 for XO" script described here
> >   http://www.reactivated.net/weblog/archives/2008/08/regular-linux-desktops-on-the-xo/
> >
> > The script builds a custom 2.6.25 which I think pulls in a few
> > additional patches (sound, etc), but most importantly, it builds the
> > mmc related drivers statically. It also sets up an initrd.
> >
> > If we try to boot with the initd, it fails. But if we skip the initrd,
> > the system boots.
> 
> What's the problem?

Think we need to be little clearer here.. Martin was building an ext3
image of an XS server for use on the XO. I added some bits
to /etc/sysconfig/mkinitrd and called mkinitrd in %post of the kickstart
file. This initrd doesn't play nice when booting F9's 2.6.27 kernel.  
Remaking the initrd on the XO doesn't help, using the hints from:
http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/server-devel/2009-April/003212.html


> My custom initramfs definitely boots on my XO.
> Also the stock F9 one did too, but it landed a lot of errors during
> boot (which took several seconds to enumerate).
> 


I have anaconda running on the XO, installs to usbkeys/booting from are 
fine with F9. F11's anaconda runs straight away, but opps when installing 
the rpms to the MMC card.   

> >  - Build a kernel exactly like Fedora 9 kernels, but with the mmc
> > drivers built statically. This is what I am am doing right now,
> > following the nice guide at
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/CustomKernel

Martin: what kernel version?

> And boot without an initramfs?
> When I did this IIRC boot would fail approximately 1 in 5 attempts
> with sdhci errors. Never got a chance to figure out why, but putting
> in the initramfs hid the problem nicely.

I just d/l'ed http://dev.laptop.org/~cjb/rawhide-xo/f11-beta/20090403.bootable.gz
this kernel opps for me also when booting from the MMC card. Bad mmc card on my 
part maybe? 

Jerry






From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 15 23:05:48 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:05:48 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0904151818420.29256@arj.bjyevire.pbz>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904141930.52180.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> <gs41qa$c72$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<7uohb6-fgd.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<1239829976.4354.119.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LRH.2.00.0904151818420.29256@arj.bjyevire.pbz>
Message-ID: <1239836748.4354.125.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 18:26 -0400, R P Herrold wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > Yes, Juha's proposal is that we should drop opensync entirely. I can
> > honestly speaking see his logic, but personally I'd rather have 0.22
> > just because I want to have the damn functionality in the distro.
> 
> OpenSync is needed for the 'barry' project's tools as part of 
> connecting to Blackberry devices, and is, I think, part of 
> Fedora

It's not, really - Barry provides an opensync plugin, but it's not
needed for any other part of Barry to work. The bits for charging your
phone, doing backups and so on work fine without the opensync plugin.

The same arguments Juha makes for not including opensync apply to the
Barry opensync plugin as much as they apply to any other.

I maintained Barry for Mandriva. I've emailed the Fedora Barry
maintainer regarding the change to opensync 0.22 - he says he will push
a build of the Barry opensync plugin as soon as he gets the time.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 00:46:14 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:46:14 -0700
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
Message-ID: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>

We've grown to the point of overflowing the DVD.  In order to save space
I've done a lot of testing and comparison.  The current strategy I see
for getting DVDs back in size is to drop a few things.

@java-development
java-1.5.0-gcj-devel
gnome-games
kdegames

With these removals we are much better on size.  These are late changes,
and I haven't gone too deep into examining which packages themselves
grew in size, this was just the quickest way to recover the space.  I
wanted to post this here for discussion and maybe alternatives.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 01:35:26 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:35:26 -0500
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>

I dunno, that not cool, removing the gnome-games and kdegames packages. As
for java-development, if java-1.5.0-* packages are removed, does that mean
that java would still work, since OpenJDK in Fedora is java 1.6.0?

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 7:46 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:

> We've grown to the point of overflowing the DVD.  In order to save space
> I've done a lot of testing and comparison.  The current strategy I see
> for getting DVDs back in size is to drop a few things.
>
> @java-development
> java-1.5.0-gcj-devel
> gnome-games
> kdegames
>
> With these removals we are much better on size.  These are late changes,
> and I haven't gone too deep into examining which packages themselves
> grew in size, this was just the quickest way to recover the space.  I
> wanted to post this here for discussion and maybe alternatives.
>
> --
> Jesse Keating
> Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
> identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 02:00:29 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:00:29 -0700
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 20:35 -0500, King InuYasha wrote:
> I dunno, that not cool, removing the gnome-games and kdegames packages. 

I'm taking suggestions on other things to remove that will save enough
space.

> As
> for java-development, if java-1.5.0-* packages are removed, does that mean
> that java would still work, since OpenJDK in Fedora is java 1.6.0?

Java itself will still be there, but many of the packages for
development of java won't.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 02:08:16 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:08:16 -0700
Subject: GCJ requirements
Message-ID: <1239847696.3622.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>

We've had openjdk for a bit now, and even on ppc.  Still a number of
things require gcj which means we wind up with a number of java runtimes
being installed on people's systems (and hogging space on the media).

$ sudo repoquery --whatrequires libgcj
ecj-1:3.4.2-4.fc11.x86_64
kawa-1:1.9.1-8.fc11.x86_64
gcc-java-0:4.4.0-0.34.x86_64
sinjdoc-0:0.5-8.fc11.x86_64
libgcj-src-0:4.4.0-0.34.x86_64
java-1.5.0-gcj-0:1.5.0.0-25.fc11.x86_64
libgcj-devel-0:4.4.0-0.34.i586
libgcj-devel-0:4.4.0-0.34.x86_64

This is a bit hard to capture all the things that require gcj and
wouldn't be satisfied by openjdk.  Is there a plan to move some/all of
these to openjdk, will there ever be a point where on x86/ppc we can
just have openjdk as the JRE and leave gcj as an optional install?

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Thu Apr 16 02:27:39 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:27:39 -0500
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> said:
> Java itself will still be there, but many of the packages for
> development of java won't.

IMHO, the general utility of Java is probably less than the games.
Think of the uproar on corporate desktop years ago when they tried to
remove solitaire and minesweeper!  What was a Minesweeper Certified
Solitaire Expert supposed to do?

I think there's only one web site I regularly visit that uses Java (and
in a way I want to work): the National Weather Service animated maps.  I
visit a lot more sites that use flash (which I know we can't have fully
functional due to patents).  I know Java is not strictly a web thing,
but how much is there on the DVD that uses it?  If some corporate app is
going to be installed, Java can be installed then as well.

Alternative: dual/double layer DVDs have come down in price a good bit.
/me ducks and runs

Where can I find a list of the current package set that goes on the DVD?
I know I should know, because I think I've asked before, but I don't
remember.
-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From overholt at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 02:42:44 2009
From: overholt at redhat.com (Andrew Overholt)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:42:44 -0400
Subject: GCJ requirements
In-Reply-To: <1239847696.3622.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239847696.3622.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090416024244.GC6138@redhat.com>

* Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> [2009-04-15 22:08]:
> will there ever be a point where on x86/ppc we can
> just have openjdk as the JRE and leave gcj as an optional install?

This was discussed just today on fedora-devel-java-list:

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-java-list/2009-April/msg00002.html

Andrew



From roland at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 02:44:50 2009
From: roland at redhat.com (Roland McGrath)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:44:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: Chris Adams's message of  Wednesday, 15 April 2009 21:27:39 -0500
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>

> Alternative: dual/double layer DVDs have come down in price a good bit.
> /me ducks and runs

More image flavors and sizes involves concerns for mirrors et al.
But how about a jigdo-only (and torrent too?) reconstructable image
of either a second dvd, or a dual-layer sized big dvd?  Or even of
3x dual-layer dvd images to hold it all on "canonical" media images.



From mike at miketc.net  Thu Apr 16 02:47:54 2009
From: mike at miketc.net (Mike Chambers)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:47:54 -0500
Subject: Frozen for Fedora 11
In-Reply-To: <1239785123.5734.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239785123.5734.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239850074.2981.1.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 01:45 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> We've reached the final freeze, as well as mass branched.  From this
> point on, builds from F-11/ will go to dist-f11-updates-candidate and
> builds from devel/ will go to dist-f12.  dist-f11 itself is locked.
> To request a freeze override, please use the Final Freeze
> Policy[1]
> 
> If you're closing bugs by doing builds, please ensure that those builds
> get properly tagged for our final release.
> 
> To check the status of your particular build/package, you can look at
> the contents of the 'dist-f11' tag in Koji.  This is the tag for
> rawhide, and what rawhide will compose from until F11 is done.
> 
> koji latest-pkg dist-f11f10-final <foo>
> 
> It's the last mile folks, lets make it awesome!

On that note, at what point is rawhide done being F11 and goes towards
F12/devel?  Or is that now?

-- 
Mike Chambers
Madisonville, KY

Fedora Project - Bugzapper, Tester, User, etc..
miketc302 at fedoraproject.org



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 02:55:42 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:55:42 -0400
Subject: Frozen for Fedora 11
In-Reply-To: <1239850074.2981.1.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
References: <1239785123.5734.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239850074.2981.1.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
Message-ID: <1239850542.3744.89.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 21:47 -0500, Mike Chambers wrote:
> On that note, at what point is rawhide done being F11 and goes towards
> F12/devel?  Or is that now?

That would be now.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From chris.stone at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 03:18:00 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:18:00 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904152018m74caa7abp57ba9943d10c6929@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 14:50 -0400, Paul Wouters wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:
>>
>> > Heh...that's funny.
>>
>> > you clearly have no idea what I've been doing for a living for a very
>> > long time. :)
>>
>> > Fedora QA Community Monkey
>>
>> Ahh, so this is about job continuity[1]? :)
>>
>> Paul
>> [1] It's a joke. Sorry, couldn't resist.
>
> Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
> is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
> Total cost: about twenty seconds (time to reboot vs. time to restart X).
> Killing X kills all X apps in any case, so they're not going to lose any
> data rebooting that they wouldn't have lost anyway by doing
> ctrl-alt-backspace. Or are our newbies running emacs in virtual consoles
> now?

You're correct.  I guess we will just have to live with the fact that
X got a little bit lamer.  I don't fully understand why, perhaps it's
an ego thing, perhaps X strives to be more like windows, perhaps
people are just clueless and dumb or maybe a little bit of all of the
above. Maybe Microsoft is paying the X guys to disable the feature by
default, I don't know? I guess no one will ever know the *real* reason
why the defaults were changed.



From bruno at wolff.to  Thu Apr 16 03:28:47 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:28:47 -0500
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090416032847.GB5078@wolff.to>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 20:35:26 -0500,
  King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I dunno, that not cool, removing the gnome-games and kdegames packages. As

Those are mostly the small games. The best games are for the most part already
out of the picture. (They don't all fit on a DVD devoted to games.)

It's too late this time around, but for F12 squashfs may be able to use
LZMA for compression and say some space that way.

When I was looking for space to cut for the games DVD there wasn't a lot
of large desktop packages that could get cut without taking a lot with
them.



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 03:34:44 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:34:44 -0700
Subject: Frozen for Fedora 11
In-Reply-To: <1239850074.2981.1.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
References: <1239785123.5734.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1239850074.2981.1.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
Message-ID: <1239852884.3763.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 21:47 -0500, Mike Chambers wrote:
> 
> On that note, at what point is rawhide done being F11 and goes towards
> F12/devel?  Or is that now?

The nightly rawhide composes will continue to be of Fedora 11 content as
we work toward our GOLD package set.  Once we have the release composed
and on the way to mirrors, we'll let the nightly rawhide composes move
on to Fedora 12.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 03:36:27 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:36:27 -0700
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
	<20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
Message-ID: <1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 19:44 -0700, Roland McGrath wrote:
> > Alternative: dual/double layer DVDs have come down in price a good bit.
> > /me ducks and runs
> 
> More image flavors and sizes involves concerns for mirrors et al.
> But how about a jigdo-only (and torrent too?) reconstructable image
> of either a second dvd, or a dual-layer sized big dvd?  Or even of
> 3x dual-layer dvd images to hold it all on "canonical" media images.

Jigdo is a usability disaster.  Our users have a hard enough time just
getting a direct iso download and burning it successfully, to try and
throw jigdo at them would be... painful.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From rc040203 at freenet.de  Thu Apr 16 04:20:08 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 06:20:08 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 14:50 -0400, Paul Wouters wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:
>>
>>> Heh...that's funny.
>>> you clearly have no idea what I've been doing for a living for a very
>>> long time. :)
>>> Fedora QA Community Monkey
>> Ahh, so this is about job continuity[1]? :)
>>
>> Paul
>> [1] It's a joke. Sorry, couldn't resist.
> 
> Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
> is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
You are presuming a newbie on a single seat/single user system.

> Total cost: about twenty seconds (time to reboot vs. time to restart X).
In a corporite environment, BIOS passwords or similar will prevent them 
from rebooting. A service tech/sys-admin will have to come by.

Very helpful ....



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 05:09:09 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:09:09 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 06:20 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

> > Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
> > is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
> You are presuming a newbie on a single seat/single user system.
> 
> > Total cost: about twenty seconds (time to reboot vs. time to restart X).
> In a corporite environment, BIOS passwords or similar will prevent them 
> from rebooting. A service tech/sys-admin will have to come by.

In a corporate environment the network will be managed by a sysadmin who
will easily be able to change the default.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From martin.langhoff at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 05:10:10 2009
From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 07:10:10 +0200
Subject: [Server-devel] Booting F9 kernels on XO...
In-Reply-To: <1239836810.2837.8.camel@f9.vonau.ca>
References: <46a038f90904150520h7c127853h8ffabcc798f29ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<818423da0904150914k37193aafp2b54219f6b7841b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239836810.2837.8.camel@f9.vonau.ca>
Message-ID: <46a038f90904152210u6eac699ao245770804b824aa7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Jerry Vonau <jvonau at shaw.ca> wrote:
>> > ?- Build a kernel exactly like Fedora 9 kernels, but with the mmc
>> > drivers built statically. This is what I am am doing right now,
>> > following the nice guide at
>> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/CustomKernel
>
> Martin: what kernel version?

I was working on kernel-2.6.27.21-78.2.41.fc9.src.rpm and editing the
config file to bring in MMC stuff, ext3, and disable SMP. It still
oops on himem32 (I initially understood that oops to be an SMP
problem).

cheers,


m
-- 
 martin.langhoff at gmail.com
 martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff



From roland at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 05:21:12 2009
From: roland at redhat.com (Roland McGrath)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:21:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: Jesse Keating's message of  Wednesday,
	15 April 2009 20:36:27 -0700
	<1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
	<20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090416052112.8CC11FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>

> Jigdo is a usability disaster.  Our users have a hard enough time just
> getting a direct iso download and burning it successfully, to try and
> throw jigdo at them would be... painful.

Last I looked there already were .jigdo files.  More of those makes it easy
for them that knows how to use it.  "Them" can download the <4.7G DVD image
and like it.



From pemboa at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 05:25:31 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 00:25:31 -0500
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
	<20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904152225x27faa8a3u17fd7fa04d5721c8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 19:44 -0700, Roland McGrath wrote:
>> > Alternative: dual/double layer DVDs have come down in price a good bit.
>> > /me ducks and runs
>>
>> More image flavors and sizes involves concerns for mirrors et al.
>> But how about a jigdo-only (and torrent too?) reconstructable image
>> of either a second dvd, or a dual-layer sized big dvd? ?Or even of
>> 3x dual-layer dvd images to hold it all on "canonical" media images.
>
> Jigdo is a usability disaster. ?Our users have a hard enough time just
> getting a direct iso download and burning it successfully, to try and
> throw jigdo at them would be... painful.


I would like some further explanation on this opinion of yours.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From chris.stone at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 05:50:11 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:50:11 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 06:20 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>
>> > Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
>> > is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
>> You are presuming a newbie on a single seat/single user system.
>>
>> > Total cost: about twenty seconds (time to reboot vs. time to restart X).
>> In a corporite environment, BIOS passwords or similar will prevent them
>> from rebooting. A service tech/sys-admin will have to come by.
>
> In a corporate environment the network will be managed by a sysadmin who
> will easily be able to change the default.

I like your logic.  It's easy to change defaults, so therefore it
makes sense to have bad defaults.



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 06:12:36 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:42:36 +0530
Subject: GNOME 2.26.1 (was Re: Plan for todays (20090327) FESCo meeting)
In-Reply-To: <1239796728.14524.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <3170f42f0904150406s300f6deegf9574ca0195ebe77@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239796728.14524.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904152312p6180273fj5b5ba82549601ac1@mail.gmail.com>

>> Was there any discussion or decision on this? Right now I am thinking
>> about Anjuta 2.26.1, which was released on the 14th of April.

> Build it and file a ticket.

Done: https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/1478

Cheers,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 06:34:34 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:34:34 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 22:50 -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 06:20 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> >
> >> > Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
> >> > is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
> >> You are presuming a newbie on a single seat/single user system.
> >>
> >> > Total cost: about twenty seconds (time to reboot vs. time to restart X).
> >> In a corporite environment, BIOS passwords or similar will prevent them
> >> from rebooting. A service tech/sys-admin will have to come by.
> >
> > In a corporate environment the network will be managed by a sysadmin who
> > will easily be able to change the default.
> 
> I like your logic.  It's easy to change defaults, so therefore it
> makes sense to have bad defaults.

You're putting words in my mouth. I have no particular opinion either
way. All I've ever said is that it isn't a big deal. Put it this way -
the time lost by the possible drawbacks of *either* approach is
extremely unlikely *ever* to add up to the amount of time and energy
smart people have wasted in the seventeen thousand threads about this.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From jreiser at BitWagon.com  Thu Apr 16 06:35:53 2009
From: jreiser at BitWagon.com (John Reiser)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:35:53 -0700
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E6D1C9.2060403@BitWagon.com>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> We've grown to the point of overflowing the DVD. ...
> I wanted to post this here for discussion and maybe alternatives.

In my opinion, the easiest way to trim "the DVD" is to remove all .rpms
for Software Development.  I believe that most users who use those .rpms
can get them easily and inexpensively some other way.  I'm a software
developer, and I often omit Software Development when installing from DVD.
Then I "yum install" and download only what I use, which often is about
1/4 of what I would get by installing Software Development from a recent
Fedora DVD.  Make a separate Software Development "spin" (platter image)
if demand warrants.

During the Fedora 11 development cycle I have often composed my own DVDs
from rawhide using pungi, caching .rpms "by hand" to save download time
(both in pungi and via "yum localupdate".)  Today's sizes for my DVDs:
  i386:    2.737 GB
  x86_64:  3.365 GB
I get this by commenting out each @Language in the kickstart file.
I am most interested in testing and making Rescue mode work well.  I
dislike waiting for all those other .rpms (download, compose, burn.)

Obviously that choice is not appropriate for a Fedora general release.
But it does illustrate the cost of catering to such a diverse user base.
On a regular Fedora DVD, about 1/3 of the space is devoted to .rpms for
supporting multiple natural/national languages: font, langpack, hunspell,
thesorus, etc.

Here are the 33 largest individual .rpms in my [pruned] pungi cache:
   kB    name
------ ------------
103792 openoffice.org-core-3.1.0-9.2.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 98340 openoffice.org-core-3.1.0-9.2.fc11.i586.rpm
 81984 eclipse-pde-3.4.2-9.fc11.i586.rpm
 81984 eclipse-pde-3.4.2-9.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 58028 texlive-texmf-fonts-2007-28.fc11.noarch.rpm
 56776 btanks-data-0.8.7686-9.fc11.noarch.rpm
 33900 thunderbird-3.0-2.1.beta2.fc11.i586.rpm
 33244 thunderbird-3.0-2.1.beta2.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 33184 java-1.6.0-openjdk-1.6.0.0-19.b14.fc11.i586.rpm
 33084 kdegames-4.2.2-6.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 33024 kdegames-4.2.2-6.fc11.i586.rpm
 32144 eclipse-cdt-5.0.2-2.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 31364 java-1.6.0-openjdk-1.6.0.0-19.b14.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 29188 eclipse-cdt-5.0.2-2.fc11.i586.rpm
 28392 gnome-user-docs-2.26.1-1.fc11.noarch.rpm
 28272 frysk-0.4-8.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 28224 frysk-0.4-8.fc11.i386.rpm
 27316 java-1.5.0-gcj-javadoc-1.5.0.0-25.fc11.i386.rpm
 27316 java-1.5.0-gcj-javadoc-1.5.0.0-25.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 27072 eclipse-platform-3.4.2-9.fc11.i586.rpm
 27072 eclipse-platform-3.4.2-9.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 24104 eclipse-jdt-3.4.2-9.fc11.i586.rpm
 24104 eclipse-jdt-3.4.2-9.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 23008 glibc-common-2.9.90-16.x86_64.rpm
 23004 glibc-common-2.9.90-16.i586.rpm
 22460 kernel-debug-2.6.29.1-70.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 22276 kernel-2.6.29.1-70.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 21792 libgcj-4.4.0-0.34.x86_64.rpm
 21452 kernel-PAEdebug-2.6.29.1-70.fc11.i686.rpm
 21260 kernel-PAE-2.6.29.1-70.fc11.i686.rpm
 21160 kernel-2.6.29.1-70.fc11.i586.rpm
 20600 java-1.6.0-openjdk-javadoc-1.6.0.0-19.b14.fc11.x86_64.rpm
 20600 java-1.6.0-openjdk-javadoc-1.6.0.0-19.b14.fc11.i586.rpm

In my opinion, 58MB for texlive-texmf-fonts on a DVD for "general use"
is excessive: more than 1% of the available space, and frequently unused.
Those who use texlive should obtain it separately.  My award for the largest
bloat factor goes to the libgweather .rpm at 13MB.  This ought to be
at most 1MB by doing appropriate computation at install and/or run time.

-- 








From hedayat at grad.com  Thu Apr 16 07:11:04 2009
From: hedayat at grad.com (Hedayat Vatankhah)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:41:04 +0430
Subject: [Fwd: Please help me with this build problem with dist-f10]
Message-ID: <49E6DA08.9070607@grad.com>

Hi again!
Nobody can help me with this build problem in F10 and F9? :(

Thanks,
Hedayat

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Please help me with this build problem with dist-f10
Date: 	Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:09:34 +0430
From: 	Hedayat Vatankhah <hedayat at grad.com>
To: 	Development discussions related to Fedora 
<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>



Hi all,
I built this package successfully in rawhide, but in Fedora 10 it fails. 
Would you please help me with this error:
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1282950&name=build.log

It seems to me that there is something wrong with Fedora 10's libtool. 
The previous version of this package successfully compiled on Fedora 10, 
and I don't expect any changes in the new package in these areas!

Thanks in advance,
Hedayat


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From rc040203 at freenet.de  Thu Apr 16 07:28:39 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:28:39 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 22:50 -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 06:20 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
>>>>> is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
>>>> You are presuming a newbie on a single seat/single user system.
>>>>
>>>>> Total cost: about twenty seconds (time to reboot vs. time to restart X).
>>>> In a corporite environment, BIOS passwords or similar will prevent them
>>>> from rebooting. A service tech/sys-admin will have to come by.
>>> In a corporate environment the network will be managed by a sysadmin who
>>> will easily be able to change the default.
>> I like your logic.  It's easy to change defaults, so therefore it
>> makes sense to have bad defaults.

ACK. Push around users by changing defaults which force them to 
increasingly customize the distro.

=> Usabiitly regression.

> You're putting words in my mouth. I have no particular opinion either
> way. All I've ever said is that it isn't a big deal.
Wrong, you are defending RH's decision not to revert this "ctl-alt-bs" 
insanity, i.e. you have taken a position.

> Put it this way -
> the time lost by the possible drawbacks of *either* approach is
> extremely unlikely *ever* to add up to the amount of time and energy
> smart people have wasted in the seventeen thousand threads about this.
You @RH guys could easily have avoided these threads - It was solely 
your decision to ignore the community.



From debayanin at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 07:35:15 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:05:15 +0530
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239834456.3622.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com> 
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com> 
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151621410.12079@newtla.xelerance.com> 
	<49E64458.1080401@redhat.com> <gs5ljv$kh9$2@ger.gmane.org> 
	<1239834456.3622.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904160035v3eb3546cr10e6fa75d96deccc@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/16 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 00:03 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>
> Which still shouldn't cause a need for an interactive fsck session.
> That's why the journal is there

No it does require fsck sometimes. I had some physical error on one of
my ext2 partitions. Every time there was a unclean shutdown there
would be a drdy error and I would have to do fsck -y /dev/sdax.
-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Thu Apr 16 07:39:31 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:39:31 +0300
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <7uohb6-fgd.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904151303.08311.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<7uohb6-fgd.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <200904161039.34441.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>



On Wednesday 15 April 2009 22:25:27 Matej Cepl wrote:
> On 2009-04-15, 10:03 GMT, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > In my opinion, we should send people to manually compile and 
> > test the trunk and help the development, not to ask support for 
> > dead release.
> 
> i.e., there is no version in a distro, right? 

Yes, drop it completely until there is actually something to distribute.
Now there is nothing.

> Or do you seriously suggest that Fedora (and other distros) are 
> supposed to package stuff which even upstream maintainers are 
> not willing to release?

No, I meant the latter.

> > Once 0.40 is released,
> 
> Which will happen when exactly?

Last estimate I hear was this summer but the roadmap doesn't contain any
dates anymore since they slipped too often. The good news is that
API is about done, there shouldn't be many changes to it: 

http://www.opensync.org/ticket/1087 bricks is working on this.
http://www.opensync.org/ticket/1105
http://www.opensync.org/ticket/1106

these two last ones were new discoveries and need to be fixed until
API gets frozen.

IMO the few people who actually can make it happen, should now
be given time to focus to the release and if any, to help them by 
testing.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Thu Apr 16 07:45:50 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:45:50 +0300
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <1239829976.4354.119.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<7uohb6-fgd.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<1239829976.4354.119.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <200904161045.50417.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>



On Thursday 16 April 2009 00:12:56 Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 21:25 +0200, Matej Cepl wrote:
> > On 2009-04-15, 10:03 GMT, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > > In my opinion, we should send people to manually compile and 
> > > test the trunk and help the development, not to ask support for 
> > > dead release.
> > 
> > i.e., there is no version in a distro, right?
> 
> Yes, Juha's proposal is that we should drop opensync entirely. 

Temporarily.


> I can honestly speaking see his logic, but personally I'd rather have 0.22
> just because I want to have the damn functionality in the distro.

I second that. I'm just being honest and admitting that 
the functionality is not there.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net  Thu Apr 16 08:11:52 2009
From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:11:52 +0200
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <49E6D1C9.2060403@BitWagon.com>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E6D1C9.2060403@BitWagon.com>
Message-ID: <1239869512.22995.5.camel@arekh.okg>

Le mercredi 15 avril 2009 ? 23:35 -0700, John Reiser a ?crit :

> In my opinion, 58MB for texlive-texmf-fonts on a DVD for "general use"
> is excessive: more than 1% of the available space, and frequently unused.

It's even worse than that, a lot of stuff in there could be widely used,
but because the texlive maintainers do not install their fonts in
fontconfig space as required by our font packaging guidelines, most apps
do not even see some of the fine fonts included in TEX (in
general-purpose TTF or OTF format).

Also our guidelines would require splitting this package, which would
allow selection of the best fonts for the DVD, while dropping the rest,
and solving your problem.

If there are people on the list who understand TEX, please, invest the
time needed to clean up this package.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot
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From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Thu Apr 16 08:29:32 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:29:32 +0300
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <gs5lak$kh9$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904152103.02761.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<gs5lak$kh9$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904161129.32782.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>




On Thursday 16 April 2009 00:58:42 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > You're referring to a problem that has been solved already.
> 
> It's not solved at all, KDE is stuck with no KitchenSync for the foreseeable
> future. 

I could ask to elaborate more this weird claim but 
frankly I've feeling that nobody here actually finds it intresting.

> What you don't understand is that projects base their decisions on those

I do understand it like everyone else in upstream. What I personally
don't understand your behavior and choice of words and the steam 
that builds up on this topic.

Have you ever considered the possibility that the task the project 
tries to implement might actually be quite complex? That mentioned
entry-duplication-issue for example happens in commercial products 
too. In addition to that, Opensync tries to support all vendors at
the same time, with different access methods, protocols and formats.

The people involved have put a lot of personal commitment to it time 
and resources wise. Thus it would be nice to hear some more constructive
feedback than accusations that you throw at to the project. I also have 
invited you to join us as you seem to understand the importance of 
the project and have skills that are needed.

<steam blowing removed>

> while I doubt that's the case (which project are you talking about?),
> that's solved anyway with the reversion to 0.22.

I don't know the details of it and frankly I don't need to.

 
> And FWIW, 0.36 had more apps and plugins working with it than 0.38 now does.
> While I'm not familiar with the project's details, 

That has been noted.

Those 0.3x tags are not much more than svn revisions. Never will be.

> * WHY each post-0.36 API change was made and in particular

It's an opensource project, with bug tracking and irc channels.
You're welcome to discuss about all the details that led to the
decision to include those fixes to the upcoming release.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 08:31:38 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:31:38 +0100
Subject: [Server-devel] Booting F9 kernels on XO...
In-Reply-To: <1239836810.2837.8.camel@f9.vonau.ca>
References: <46a038f90904150520h7c127853h8ffabcc798f29ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<818423da0904150914k37193aafp2b54219f6b7841b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239836810.2837.8.camel@f9.vonau.ca>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904160131h7fd49495u29e33af4435a939e@mail.gmail.com>

> I have anaconda running on the XO, installs to usbkeys/booting from are
> fine with F9. F11's anaconda runs straight away, but opps when installing
> the rpms to the MMC card.

I think the issue your seeing with F11 should be fixed in the next
rawhide push (anaconda-11.5.0.45-1), I've been seeing the same issues.

Peter



From lars at homer.se  Thu Apr 16 08:35:25 2009
From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:35:25 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>

On 04/15/2009 08:59 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
> is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.

Yes, but why? There is no need to reboot the machine just because an 
application, X in this case, causes problem. You only have to kill X, 
and restart it, this is just what ctrl-alt-backspace have done in an 
excellent way for years. I frankly can not see why this feature should 
go, just because some few accidentally have pressed just that key sequence.

A better way to fix this might be to have a dialog. You presses 
ctrl-alt-backspace, a dialog comes up saying, I will restart X in yy 
seconds, with a cancel button. If X is toast, the alarm will the restart 
X. If this is feasible, would this alternative not be a better one than 
removing a feature that many likes and want to stay.

By the way, I can not recall seeing anyone complaining about that 
ctrl-alt-backspace have caused them problems. Could someone please give 
some links to discussions where this actually have happened.

/Lars
-- 
Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/



From msuchy at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 08:36:33 2009
From: msuchy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Miroslav_Such=FD?=)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:36:33 +0200
Subject: [Fwd: Please help me with this build problem with dist-f10]
In-Reply-To: <49E6DA08.9070607@grad.com>
References: <49E6DA08.9070607@grad.com>
Message-ID: <49E6EE11.7050908@redhat.com>

Hedayat Vatankhah wrote:
> Hi all,
> I built this package successfully in rawhide, but in Fedora 10 it fails. 
> Would you please help me with this error:
> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1282950&name=build.log

It seems I can not access the build.log:

An error has occurred in the web interface code. This could be due to a 
bug or a configuration issue.
GenericError: no file "build.log" output by task 1282950

Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/usr/share/koji-web/lib/kojiweb/publisher.py", line 16, in 
publish_object
     return old_publish_object(req, object)
   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/mod_python/publisher.py", line 
412, in publish_object
     return publish_object(req,util.apply_fs_data(object, req.form, 
req=req))
   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/mod_python/util.py", line 439, 
in apply_fs_data
     return object(**args)
   File "/usr/share/koji-web/scripts/index.py", line 610, in getfile
     raise koji.GenericError, 'no file "%s" output by task %i' % (name, 
taskID)
GenericError: no file "build.log" output by task 1282950



-- 
Miroslav Suchy
Red Hat Satellite Engineering



From ilyes.gouta at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 08:52:32 2009
From: ilyes.gouta at gmail.com (Ilyes Gouta)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:52:32 +0100
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <1239824652.8860.3049.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1239822770.4354.103.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239824652.8860.3049.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <234fa2210904160152me0fb4ddwfbf0976e46889fb6@mail.gmail.com>

Alright, thank you guys for the information. I'm gonna try sysprof out, it
looks like it's THE tool I'm looking for!

Regards,
Ilyes Gouta.

2009/4/15 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com>

> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 12:12 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 12:12 +0100, Ilyes Gouta wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I'm running Fedora 10 on my old Thinkpad R50e, which has a Pentium M
> > > and an intel 855GM graphics card and I'm not happy with the
> > > performance of KDE, Kwin, Xserver and al. where sometimes, I can
> > > clearly see a given window getting its background cleared and its
> > > content redrawn slowly. I remember I didn't have annoying artifacts
> > > when I was running Windows, three years ago on the same machine. I
> > > don't have composition enabled or any fancy thing in my KDE setup. So
> > > basically, I'm asking if you guys know about any profiling tool that
> > > would enable me to see where the system is spending its time,
> > > especially when rendering the desktop.
> >
> > I'm fairly sure performance regressions are one of the known issues with
> > older Intel chips (pre-i915, basically) on the newer versions of the
> > intel driver, so you may want to check redhat and freedesktop bugzillas
> > first to see if anyone's reported similar problems.
>
> There's at least one known problem with 855 and 865, which is that we
> don't quite have the cache flushing logic right yet (partly chipset
> bugs, partly inadequate CPUs on those boards), which means you end up
> invalidating all write-back mappings on every buffer you ask the GPU to
> execute (which means cache flush, which means a lot of memory write
> traffic).  Not the fastest thing ever.
>
> If this is what you're hitting, sysprof would show you spending an
> inordinate amount of time in i915_gem_execbuffer() in the kernel.
>
> sysprof is an _awesome_ tool, by the way.
>
> - ajax
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From ilyes.gouta at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 08:58:52 2009
From: ilyes.gouta at gmail.com (Ilyes Gouta)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:58:52 +0100
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <234fa2210904160152me0fb4ddwfbf0976e46889fb6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1239822770.4354.103.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239824652.8860.3049.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> 
	<234fa2210904160152me0fb4ddwfbf0976e46889fb6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <234fa2210904160158v7a2a0b3cp2b1f9b78aafddd82@mail.gmail.com>

Yesterday, I tried hooking valgrind --trace-children with the startkde
executable but the window manager (kwin) failed to start after waiting for
almost 20min. It was really a slow process.

-Ilyes

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Ilyes Gouta <ilyes.gouta at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Alright, thank you guys for the information. I'm gonna try sysprof out, it
> looks like it's THE tool I'm looking for!
>
> Regards,
> Ilyes Gouta.
>
> 2009/4/15 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com>
>
>> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 12:12 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>> > On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 12:12 +0100, Ilyes Gouta wrote:
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > I'm running Fedora 10 on my old Thinkpad R50e, which has a Pentium M
>> > > and an intel 855GM graphics card and I'm not happy with the
>> > > performance of KDE, Kwin, Xserver and al. where sometimes, I can
>> > > clearly see a given window getting its background cleared and its
>> > > content redrawn slowly. I remember I didn't have annoying artifacts
>> > > when I was running Windows, three years ago on the same machine. I
>> > > don't have composition enabled or any fancy thing in my KDE setup. So
>> > > basically, I'm asking if you guys know about any profiling tool that
>> > > would enable me to see where the system is spending its time,
>> > > especially when rendering the desktop.
>> >
>> > I'm fairly sure performance regressions are one of the known issues with
>> > older Intel chips (pre-i915, basically) on the newer versions of the
>> > intel driver, so you may want to check redhat and freedesktop bugzillas
>> > first to see if anyone's reported similar problems.
>>
>> There's at least one known problem with 855 and 865, which is that we
>> don't quite have the cache flushing logic right yet (partly chipset
>> bugs, partly inadequate CPUs on those boards), which means you end up
>> invalidating all write-back mappings on every buffer you ask the GPU to
>> execute (which means cache flush, which means a lot of memory write
>> traffic).  Not the fastest thing ever.
>>
>> If this is what you're hitting, sysprof would show you spending an
>> inordinate amount of time in i915_gem_execbuffer() in the kernel.
>>
>> sysprof is an _awesome_ tool, by the way.
>>
>> - ajax
>>
>> --
>> fedora-devel-list mailing list
>> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>>
>
>
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From aph at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 09:33:28 2009
From: aph at redhat.com (Andrew Haley)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:33:28 +0100
Subject: GCJ requirements
In-Reply-To: <1239847696.3622.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239847696.3622.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E6FB68.7040300@redhat.com>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> We've had openjdk for a bit now, and even on ppc.  Still a number of
> things require gcj which means we wind up with a number of java runtimes
> being installed on people's systems (and hogging space on the media).
> 
> $ sudo repoquery --whatrequires libgcj
> ecj-1:3.4.2-4.fc11.x86_64
> kawa-1:1.9.1-8.fc11.x86_64
> gcc-java-0:4.4.0-0.34.x86_64
> sinjdoc-0:0.5-8.fc11.x86_64
> libgcj-src-0:4.4.0-0.34.x86_64
> java-1.5.0-gcj-0:1.5.0.0-25.fc11.x86_64
> libgcj-devel-0:4.4.0-0.34.i586
> libgcj-devel-0:4.4.0-0.34.x86_64
> 
> This is a bit hard to capture all the things that require gcj and
> wouldn't be satisfied by openjdk.  Is there a plan to move some/all of
> these to openjdk, will there ever be a point where on x86/ppc we can
> just have openjdk as the JRE and leave gcj as an optional install?

Well, all the gcj packages obviously require libgcj.  These are:

> gcc-java-0:4.4.0-0.34.x86_64
> libgcj-src-0:4.4.0-0.34.x86_64
> java-1.5.0-gcj-0:1.5.0.0-25.fc11.x86_64
> libgcj-devel-0:4.4.0-0.34.i586
> libgcj-devel-0:4.4.0-0.34.x86_64

The ecj package is a gcj-accelerated version of javac:

> ecj-1:3.4.2-4.fc11.x86_64

kawa is a gcj-based LISP implementation:

> kawa-1:1.9.1-8.fc11.x86_64

sinjdoc is a gij-based version of javadoc:

> sinjdoc-0:0.5-8.fc11.x86_64

OpenJDK, while technically correct, is not really fast enough to use on most
non-x86 systems.  We are working as fast as we can to get OpenJDK JIT-compiling
working on PPC systems.

Andrew.



From aph at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 09:35:06 2009
From: aph at redhat.com (Andrew Haley)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:35:06 +0100
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E6FBCA.2060608@redhat.com>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> We've grown to the point of overflowing the DVD.  In order to save space
> I've done a lot of testing and comparison.  The current strategy I see
> for getting DVDs back in size is to drop a few things.
> 
> @java-development
> java-1.5.0-gcj-devel
> gnome-games
> kdegames
> 
> With these removals we are much better on size.  These are late changes,
> and I haven't gone too deep into examining which packages themselves
> grew in size, this was just the quickest way to recover the space.  I
> wanted to post this here for discussion and maybe alternatives.

I'm not quite sure how all this works.  Would developers still be able
to install these with yum?

Andrew.



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 16 09:49:10 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:19:10 +0530
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <49E6FBCA.2060608@redhat.com>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E6FBCA.2060608@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E6FF16.5020605@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/16/2009 03:05 PM, Andrew Haley wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
>> We've grown to the point of overflowing the DVD.  In order to save space
>> I've done a lot of testing and comparison.  The current strategy I see
>> for getting DVDs back in size is to drop a few things.
>>
>> @java-development
>> java-1.5.0-gcj-devel
>> gnome-games
>> kdegames
>>
>> With these removals we are much better on size.  These are late changes,
>> and I haven't gone too deep into examining which packages themselves
>> grew in size, this was just the quickest way to recover the space.  I
>> wanted to post this here for discussion and maybe alternatives.
> 
> I'm not quite sure how all this works.  Would developers still be able
> to install these with yum?

Yes. The discussion is only about what won't be included in the DVD
image. The repository will continue to have all the packages and users
will be able to use yum or PackageKit to install them.

Rahul



From mhlavink at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 09:53:47 2009
From: mhlavink at redhat.com (Michal Hlavinka)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:53:47 +0200
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904161153.47500.mhlavink@redhat.com>

On Thursday 16 April 2009 02:46:14 Jesse Keating wrote:
> We've grown to the point of overflowing the DVD.  In order to save space
> I've done a lot of testing and comparison.  The current strategy I see
> for getting DVDs back in size is to drop a few things.
>
> @java-development
> java-1.5.0-gcj-devel
> gnome-games
> kdegames
>
> With these removals we are much better on size.  These are late changes,
> and I haven't gone too deep into examining which packages themselves
> grew in size, this was just the quickest way to recover the space.  I
> wanted to post this here for discussion and maybe alternatives.

Hi,

I think packages requiring internet connection to work should be first on the 
line (for example torrent clients). Lot of people use dvd for installation 
because they have no/too slow internet connection. 

Michal Hlavinka



From aph at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 10:30:20 2009
From: aph at redhat.com (Andrew Haley)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:30:20 +0100
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <49E6FF16.5020605@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E6FBCA.2060608@redhat.com>
	<49E6FF16.5020605@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49E708BC.3090904@redhat.com>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 04/16/2009 03:05 PM, Andrew Haley wrote:
>> Jesse Keating wrote:
>>> We've grown to the point of overflowing the DVD.  In order to save space
>>> I've done a lot of testing and comparison.  The current strategy I see
>>> for getting DVDs back in size is to drop a few things.
>>>
>>> @java-development
>>> java-1.5.0-gcj-devel
>>> gnome-games
>>> kdegames
>>>
>>> With these removals we are much better on size.  These are late changes,
>>> and I haven't gone too deep into examining which packages themselves
>>> grew in size, this was just the quickest way to recover the space.  I
>>> wanted to post this here for discussion and maybe alternatives.
>> I'm not quite sure how all this works.  Would developers still be able
>> to install these with yum?
> 
> Yes. The discussion is only about what won't be included in the DVD
> image. The repository will continue to have all the packages and users
> will be able to use yum or PackageKit to install them.

Well, I can't see that's going to be a problem at all.  It's a little
unfortunate I suppose, but in practice developers always need the latest
updates from yum anyway.

Andrew.



From airlied at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 10:36:19 2009
From: airlied at redhat.com (Dave Airlie)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:36:19 +1000
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <1239878179.19031.2.camel@localhost>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 09:28 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 22:50 -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:
> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 06:20 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
> >>>>> is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
> >>>> You are presuming a newbie on a single seat/single user system.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Total cost: about twenty seconds (time to reboot vs. time to restart X).
> >>>> In a corporite environment, BIOS passwords or similar will prevent them
> >>>> from rebooting. A service tech/sys-admin will have to come by.
> >>> In a corporate environment the network will be managed by a sysadmin who
> >>> will easily be able to change the default.
> >> I like your logic.  It's easy to change defaults, so therefore it
> >> makes sense to have bad defaults.
> 
> ACK. Push around users by changing defaults which force them to 
> increasingly customize the distro.
> 
> => Usabiitly regression.
> 
> > You're putting words in my mouth. I have no particular opinion either
> > way. All I've ever said is that it isn't a big deal.
> Wrong, you are defending RH's decision not to revert this "ctl-alt-bs" 
> insanity, i.e. you have taken a position.
> 
> > Put it this way -
> > the time lost by the possible drawbacks of *either* approach is
> > extremely unlikely *ever* to add up to the amount of time and energy
> > smart people have wasted in the seventeen thousand threads about this.
> You @RH guys could easily have avoided these threads - It was solely 
> your decision to ignore the community.

No we ignored you and one other guy.

I'm sure every decision you make ever is for the good of the community,
just as the X.org developers believe this was for the good of the
community.

My only worry, is that nobody thought of the children.

Dave.




From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Thu Apr 16 10:42:17 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:42:17 +0300
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <200904161039.34441.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<7uohb6-fgd.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<200904161039.34441.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <200904161342.17772.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>




On Thursday 16 April 2009 10:39:31 Juha Tuomala wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 April 2009 22:25:27 Matej Cepl wrote:
> > On 2009-04-15, 10:03 GMT, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > > In my opinion, we should send people to manually compile and 
> > > test the trunk and help the development, not to ask support for 
> > > dead release.
> > 
> > i.e., there is no version in a distro, right? 
> 
> Yes, drop it completely until there is actually something to distribute.
> Now there is nothing.
> 
> > Or do you seriously suggest that Fedora (and other distros) are 
> > supposed to package stuff which even upstream maintainers are 
> > not willing to release?
> 
> No, I meant the latter.

Err.... the former of course.

Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 16 10:58:08 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:58:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090416 changes
Message-ID: <20090416105808.7AF9C1F825D@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Thu Apr 16 06:15:04 UTC 2009

Removed package WebKit
Updated Packages:

DeviceKit-disks-004-0.9.20090415git.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 004-0.8.20090415git.fc11
- New snapshot

* Wed Apr 15 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 004-0.9.20090415git.fc11
- Rebuild


createrepo-0.9.7-4.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Seth Vidal <skvidal at fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.7-2
- fix 495845 and other presto issues

* Wed Apr 15 2009 Seth Vidal <skvidal at fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.7-4
- patch another buglet


evince-2.26.1-1.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- See http://download.gnome.org/sources/evince/2.26/evince-2.26.1.news


fedora-logos-11.0.0-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 11.0.0-1
- Update to 11.0.0 art (except for KDE splash)


ghostscript-8.64-6.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Tim Waugh <twaugh at redhat.com> 8.64-6
- Applied patch to fix CVE-2009-0792 (bug #491853).
- Applied patch to fix CVE-2009-0196 (bug #493379).


gnome-applets-2.26.1-3.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.1-3
- Make gweather network status tracking work


gnome-panel-2.26.1-2.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2
- Fix the clock applets network tracking code


google-gadgets-0.10.5-4.fc11
----------------------------
* Fri Mar 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 0.10.5-4
- Rebuild against newer gecko

* Fri Mar 06 2009 Jan Horak <jhorak at redhat.com> - 0.10.5-3
- Rebuild against newer gecko


gvfs-1.2.2-3.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 1.2.2-3
- Sync with the gdu-volume-monitor branch


gwenhywfar-3.7.2-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> - 3.7.2-2
- buildrequire openssl-devel, for gct-tool (#495813)


iok-1.3.4-1.fc11
----------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Parag Nemade <panemade at gmail.com>- 1.3.4-1
- Update to Next release 1.3.4


kdebindings-4.2.2-4.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.2.2-4
- reenable csharp on ppc


libatasmart-0.12-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.12-1
- New upstream release


ltsp-5.1.70-1.fc11
------------------
* Sun Apr 05 2009 Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> - 5.1.70-1
- Fix typo in mkinitrd config
- Configure plymouth for graphical boot on supported hardware


mash-0.5.0-1.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> 0.5.0-1
- Add support for generating deltas with createrepo
- add F11 key to config (<jkeating at redhat.com>)
- various multlib updates (#485242, etc.)


numpy-1.3.0-2.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> 1.3.0-2
- Split out f2py into subpackage, thanks Peter Robinson pbrobinson at gmail.com.


pilot-link-0.12.3-20.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Ivana Varekova <varekova at redhat.com> - 2:0.12.3-20
- rename blacklist-visor to blacklist-visor.conf (#494765)


system-config-firewall-1.2.16-2.fc11
------------------------------------

tomcat5-5.5.27-6.2.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 0:5.5.27-6.2
- preserve upgrade ordering, clean up CLASSPATH export


xfce4-settings-4.6.0-5.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Kevin Fenzi <kevin at tummy.com> - 4.6.0-4
- Make Antialias default (bug #495700)

* Wed Apr 15 2009 Kevin Fenzi <kevin at tummy.com> - 4.6.0-5
- Bump to fix tagging mistake.


Summary:
Added Packages: 0
Removed Packages: 1
Modified Packages: 20






Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice





From hedayat at grad.com  Thu Apr 16 11:31:09 2009
From: hedayat at grad.com (Hedayat Vatankhah)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:01:09 +0430
Subject: [Fwd: Please help me with this build problem with dist-f10]
In-Reply-To: <49E6EE11.7050908@redhat.com>
References: <49E6DA08.9070607@grad.com> <49E6EE11.7050908@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E716FD.8090506@grad.com>



/*Miroslav Such <msuchy at redhat.com>*/ wrote on ??/??/?? 01:06:33:
> Hedayat Vatankhah wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I built this package successfully in rawhide, but in Fedora 10 it 
>> fails. Would you please help me with this error:
>> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1282950&name=build.log 
>>
>
> It seems I can not access the build.log:
>
> An error has occurred in the web interface code. This could be due to 
> a bug or a configuration issue.
> GenericError: no file "build.log" output by task 1282950
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/share/koji-web/lib/kojiweb/publisher.py", line 16, in 
> publish_object
>     return old_publish_object(req, object)
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/mod_python/publisher.py", 
> line 412, in publish_object
>     return publish_object(req,util.apply_fs_data(object, req.form, 
> req=req))
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/mod_python/util.py", line 
> 439, in apply_fs_data
>     return object(**args)
>   File "/usr/share/koji-web/scripts/index.py", line 610, in getfile
>     raise koji.GenericError, 'no file "%s" output by task %i' % (name, 
> taskID)
> GenericError: no file "build.log" output by task 1282950

Yes, it seems that build.log is disappeared from this task! Look at this 
instead:
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1287393&name=build.log

Thanks,
Hedayat
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/attachments/20090416/50d66fae/attachment.htm>

From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 11:41:52 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:41:52 +0200
Subject: [Fwd: Please help me with this build problem with dist-f10]
In-Reply-To: <49E716FD.8090506@grad.com>
References: <49E6DA08.9070607@grad.com> <49E6EE11.7050908@redhat.com>
	<49E716FD.8090506@grad.com>
Message-ID: <20090416134152.01f39c35@faldor.intranet>

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:01:09 +0430, Hedayat wrote:

> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1287393&name=build.log

Have you tried to recreate the autotools and libtool files manually
yet instead of using autoreconf?



From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Thu Apr 16 12:36:23 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 07:36:23 -0500
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <49E6D1C9.2060403@BitWagon.com>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E6D1C9.2060403@BitWagon.com>
Message-ID: <20090416123623.GA550196@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, John Reiser <jreiser at BitWagon.com> said:
> Then I "yum install" and download only what I use, which often is about
> 1/4 of what I would get by installing Software Development from a recent
> Fedora DVD.  Make a separate Software Development "spin" (platter image)
> if demand warrants.

I know it might just encourage growth without limit, but would it be
possible to have multiple DVDs?  Maybe we could have something along the
lines of the original multi-CD setup, where everybody used disc1 (the
installer, @core, @base, the other common stuff).  Then there could be a
Development DVD; if you want dev tools installed, you download that disc
and feed it to the intstaller.  Maybe a KDE DVD (and before anybody
flames, I'm not picking on KDE; GNOME is the default in Fedora, so KDE
_could_ be pushed to a separate disc).

Obviously, the support for multiple discs is there for CDs, but I don't
know if it could handle arbitrary discs instead of just 1, 2, 3, ...
(and it is obviously too late for F11 anyway).

What would then also be nice would be for secondary DVDs to use a
different directory instead of Packages (kind of the way RHEL 5 does
it).  Then it would be easy for someone with dual/double-layer DVDs to
combine their favorite image with disc1 with nothing more than a basic
DVD program (no need for createrepo or the like).
-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From jussi.lehtola at iki.fi  Thu Apr 16 13:13:01 2009
From: jussi.lehtola at iki.fi (Jussi Lehtola)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:13:01 +0300
Subject: Multilib/multiarch debuginfo
Message-ID: <1239887581.23619.5.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>

Hi,


is there any way to get i386 debuginfo packages on x86_64 for e.g.
libraries that are available also in 32-bit mode?
-- 
Jussi Lehtola
Fedora Project Contributor
jussilehtola at fedoraproject.org



From ndbecker2 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 13:28:58 2009
From: ndbecker2 at gmail.com (Neal Becker)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:28:58 -0400
Subject: death of koji (and he was so young!)
Message-ID: <gs7bqq$oqm$1@ger.gmane.org>

Watching tasks (this may be safely interrupted)...
1302206 build (dist-f9-updates-candidate, 
/cvs/pkgs:rpms/Cython/F-9:Cython-0_11_1-1_fc9): open 
(x86-5.fedora.phx.redhat.com)
  1302207 buildSRPMFromSCM (/cvs/pkgs:rpms/Cython/F-9:Cython-0_11_1-1_fc9): 
free
  1302207 buildSRPMFromSCM (/cvs/pkgs:rpms/Cython/F-9:Cython-0_11_1-1_fc9): 
free -> open (x86-1.fedora.phx.redhat.com)
  1302207 buildSRPMFromSCM (/cvs/pkgs:rpms/Cython/F-9:Cython-0_11_1-1_fc9): 
open (x86-1.fedora.phx.redhat.com) -> closed
  0 free  1 open  1 done  0 failed
  1302214 buildArch (Cython-0.11.1-1.fc9.src.rpm, ppc): free
  1302215 buildArch (Cython-0.11.1-1.fc9.src.rpm, x86_64): free
  1302216 buildArch (Cython-0.11.1-1.fc9.src.rpm, i386): free
  1302217 buildArch (Cython-0.11.1-1.fc9.src.rpm, ppc64): free
  1302215 buildArch (Cython-0.11.1-1.fc9.src.rpm, x86_64): free -> open 
(x86-3.fedora.phx.redhat.com)
  1302214 buildArch (Cython-0.11.1-1.fc9.src.rpm, ppc): free -> open 
(ppc9.fedora.phx.redhat.com)
  1302216 buildArch (Cython-0.11.1-1.fc9.src.rpm, i386): free -> open 
(x86-1.fedora.phx.redhat.com)
  1302217 buildArch (Cython-0.11.1-1.fc9.src.rpm, ppc64): free -> open 
(ppc3.fedora.redhat.com)
ProtocolError: <ProtocolError for koji.fedoraproject.org/kojihub: -1 >
make: *** [koji] Error 1




From notting at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 13:33:23 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:33:23 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090416 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090416105808.7AF9C1F825D@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090416105808.7AF9C1F825D@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090416133323.GB23779@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Rawhide Report (rawhide at fedoraproject.org) said: 
> Compose started at Thu Apr 16 06:15:04 UTC 2009
> 
> Removed package WebKit
> Updated Packages:

Also new today... rawhide is composed with deltarpms against the prior
rawhide. Due to a bug, this is only currently working on i386; it should
be fixed for other arches tomorrow.

Please test and report any issues.

Bill



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr 16 13:32:09 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:32:09 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151621410.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E64458.1080401@redhat.com> <gs5ljv$kh9$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239834456.3622.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<a2cc2dbc0904160035v3eb3546cr10e6fa75d96deccc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gs7c0p$nia$1@ger.gmane.org>

Debayan Banerjee wrote:
> No it does require fsck sometimes. I had some physical error on one of
> my ext2 partitions. Every time there was a unclean shutdown there
> would be a drdy error and I would have to do fsck -y /dev/sdax.

Ext2 is not journaled. Do you mean ext3?

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr 16 13:33:57 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:33:57 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de> <1239878179.19031.2.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <gs7c45$nia$2@ger.gmane.org>

Dave Airlie wrote:
> No we ignored you and one other guy.

There are more than 2 people who complained.

        Kevin Kofler



From debayanin at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 13:35:58 2009
From: debayanin at gmail.com (Debayan Banerjee)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:05:58 +0530
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <gs7c0p$nia$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com> 
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com> 
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151621410.12079@newtla.xelerance.com> 
	<49E64458.1080401@redhat.com> <gs5ljv$kh9$2@ger.gmane.org> 
	<1239834456.3622.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<a2cc2dbc0904160035v3eb3546cr10e6fa75d96deccc@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gs7c0p$nia$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <a2cc2dbc0904160635r9f6b870p1453cf579f1d89fd@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/16 Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at>:
> Ext2 is not journaled. Do you mean ext3

Ahh, my bad. I was using ext2. I recently upgraded to ext3 and it runs fine.



-- 
Be Intelligent, Use GNU/Linux

http://debayanin.googlepages.com/
http://debayan.wordpress.com
http://lug.nitdgp.ac.in



From mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp  Thu Apr 16 13:37:11 2009
From: mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Mamoru Tasaka)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:37:11 +0900
Subject: [Fwd: Please help me with this build problem with dist-f10]
In-Reply-To: <49E6DA08.9070607@grad.com>
References: <49E6DA08.9070607@grad.com>
Message-ID: <49E73487.8000302@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>

Hedayat Vatankhah wrote, at 04/16/2009 04:11 PM +9:00:
> Hi again!
> Nobody can help me with this build problem in F10 and F9? :(
> 
> Thanks,
> Hedayat
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: 	Please help me with this build problem with dist-f10
> Date: 	Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:09:34 +0430
> From: 	Hedayat Vatankhah <hedayat at grad.com>
> To: 	Development discussions related to Fedora 
> <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> 
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> I built this package successfully in rawhide, but in Fedora 10 it fails. 
> Would you please help me with this error:
> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1282950&name=build.log
> 
> It seems to me that there is something wrong with Fedora 10's libtool. 
> The previous version of this package successfully compiled on Fedora 10, 
> and I don't expect any changes in the new package in these areas!
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Hedayat

Currently I cannot come up with better solution, however replacing
local libtool created by configure with system-wide (/usr/bin/)libtool
seems to work.

srpm I used is put under:
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/scratch/mtasaka/task_1302019/
koji task:
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1302019

Note:
Please use 1%{?dist}.1 or so for release number to keep EVR order
between F-11 <-> F-10 if you don't want to bump release number
on F-11 for now.

Regards,
Mamoru



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr 16 13:39:02 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:39:02 +0200
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gs7cdm$nia$3@ger.gmane.org>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> We've grown to the point of overflowing the DVD.  In order to save space
> I've done a lot of testing and comparison.  The current strategy I see
> for getting DVDs back in size is to drop a few things.
> 
> @java-development
> java-1.5.0-gcj-devel
> gnome-games
> kdegames

Can you try dropping kdeartwork-screensavers and kdeartwork-kxs rather than
kdegames? That's what we're doing in the KDE live image. Though if
gnome-screensaver drags in the xscreensaver stuff anyway, it might not help
that much for the DVD.

        Kevin Kofler



From caolanm at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 13:41:27 2009
From: caolanm at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Caol=E1n?= McNamara)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:41:27 +0100
Subject: death of koji (and he was so young!)
In-Reply-To: <gs7bqq$oqm$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gs7bqq$oqm$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239889287.3523.6.camel@Vain>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 09:28 -0400, Neal Becker wrote:
> Watching tasks (this may be safely interrupted)...

> ProtocolError: <ProtocolError for koji.fedoraproject.org/kojihub: -1 >
> make: *** [koji] Error 1

Your build kept going fine I'd say, i.e.
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1302206, the command
line client just lost connection (for some reason, happens to me a lot
with my long builds) to that kojihub thingy

C.



From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 13:42:44 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:42:44 -0400
Subject: rawhide report: 20090416 changes 
In-Reply-To: <20090416133323.GB23779@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> 
References: <20090416105808.7AF9C1F825D@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<20090416133323.GB23779@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <16069.1239889364@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> writes:
> Also new today... rawhide is composed with deltarpms against the prior
> rawhide. Due to a bug, this is only currently working on i386; it should
> be fixed for other arches tomorrow.

Uh ... what are the implications of that for someone trying to do a
fresh install of rawhide?

			regards, tom lane



From rjones at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 13:44:44 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:44:44 +0100
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904152225x27faa8a3u17fd7fa04d5721c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
	<20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904152225x27faa8a3u17fd7fa04d5721c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090416134444.GA20726@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:25:31AM -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 19:44 -0700, Roland McGrath wrote:
> >> > Alternative: dual/double layer DVDs have come down in price a good bit.
> >> > /me ducks and runs
> >>
> >> More image flavors and sizes involves concerns for mirrors et al.
> >> But how about a jigdo-only (and torrent too?) reconstructable image
> >> of either a second dvd, or a dual-layer sized big dvd? ?Or even of
> >> 3x dual-layer dvd images to hold it all on "canonical" media images.
> >
> > Jigdo is a usability disaster. ?Our users have a hard enough time just
> > getting a direct iso download and burning it successfully, to try and
> > throw jigdo at them would be... painful.
> 
> 
> I would like some further explanation on this opinion of yours.

It's my experience too.  Jigdo was completely impenetrable last time I
tried to use it.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any
software inside the virtual machine.  Supports Linux and Windows.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-df/



From cra at WPI.EDU  Thu Apr 16 13:45:32 2009
From: cra at WPI.EDU (Chuck Anderson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:45:32 -0400
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904152225x27faa8a3u17fd7fa04d5721c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
	<20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904152225x27faa8a3u17fd7fa04d5721c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090416134532.GQ15857@angus.ind.WPI.EDU>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:25:31AM -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 19:44 -0700, Roland McGrath wrote:
> >> > Alternative: dual/double layer DVDs have come down in price a good bit.
> >> > /me ducks and runs
> >>
> >> More image flavors and sizes involves concerns for mirrors et al.
> >> But how about a jigdo-only (and torrent too?) reconstructable image
> >> of either a second dvd, or a dual-layer sized big dvd? ?Or even of
> >> 3x dual-layer dvd images to hold it all on "canonical" media images.
> >
> > Jigdo is a usability disaster. ?Our users have a hard enough time just
> > getting a direct iso download and burning it successfully, to try and
> > throw jigdo at them would be... painful.
> 
> 
> I would like some further explanation on this opinion of yours.

I for one agree with Jesse.  I used to be a big Jigdo supporter.  In 
theory, it is a great idea.  In practice, it is such a pain for even 
an experienced person to use (me) that I most often just download 
.iso's or do a network install.  For example, last time I helped 
someone install Fedora 10, we just ended up doing a network install 
which automatically grabbed the updates repo from a mirror, rather 
than going through the pain of trying to download the updated Fedora 
Unity 10 media using jigdo.  If pyjigdo ever got anywhere, maybe 
things would be better.

Another idea would be to put CD-sized iso images on a DVD iso or 
dual-layer DVD iso.



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Thu Apr 16 13:52:18 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:52:18 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239878179.19031.2.camel@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>
	<1239878179.19031.2.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <49E73812.3090605@freenet.de>

Dave Airlie wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 09:28 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

>> You @RH guys could easily have avoided these threads - It was solely 
>> your decision to ignore the community.
> 
> No we ignored you and one other guy.

Announcement in your radio: "There's a ghostdriver on interstate Fedora"
You: "One? Hundreds!"

> I'm sure every decision you make ever is for the good of the community,
> just as the X.org developers believe this was for the good of the
> community.
I don't care what the X.org guys do - I care about what the RH people 
who maintain the X-packages in Fedora do:
Turn Fedora into a "Ubuntu cult" and turn Linux into a poor 
single-user/single-seat Windows imitation.

In case I wasn't clear: The "ctl-alt-bs" issue only is the tip of the 
iceberg. Much of what RH has pushed into fedora is from same category.

... turning away in disgust.




From drago01 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 14:00:36 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:00:36 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090416 changes
In-Reply-To: <16069.1239889364@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <20090416105808.7AF9C1F825D@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<20090416133323.GB23779@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<16069.1239889364@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904160700s39186536jf50eec07b64525c1@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
> Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> writes:
>> Also new today... rawhide is composed with deltarpms against the prior
>> rawhide. Due to a bug, this is only currently working on i386; it should
>> be fixed for other arches tomorrow.
>
> Uh ... what are the implications of that for someone trying to do a
> fresh install of rawhide?
>

should not be affected. deltarpms are only used for updates.



From kalev at smartlink.ee  Thu Apr 16 14:04:58 2009
From: kalev at smartlink.ee (Kalev Lember)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:04:58 +0300
Subject: License file in multiple locations
Message-ID: <49E73B0A.1030703@smartlink.ee>

Hello,

I am trying to package a program that expects to find its license file
(COPYING) in /usr/share/%{name} to be able to show license text at
runtime. However, standard practice is to install this file to the %doc
directory in /usr/share/doc/%{name}-%{version}.

What would be a good way to solve this? Right now I can see 4 different
ways and each of it has its flaws:

1) Symlink the file from /usr/share/%{name} to the standard %doc
directory. This doesn't seem to be a good idea, because then runtime
would depend on the presence of %doc marked items.

2) Patch the program in spec file to search the license text in
/usr/share/doc/%{name}-%{version} instead. I wouldn't really like to
carry a Fedora-specific patch in the RPM though.

3) Not to mark COPYING as %doc at all, and only install it in
/usr/share/%{name}.

4) Install COPYING file in both directories, and only mark it as %doc in
/usr/share/doc/%{name}-%{version}.

The review request and spec file of the package in question is here:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=powwow

-- 
Kalev



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 14:06:54 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:06:54 -0400
Subject: death of koji (and he was so young!)
In-Reply-To: <gs7bqq$oqm$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gs7bqq$oqm$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239890814.3744.105.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 09:28 -0400, Neal Becker wrote:
> Watching tasks (this may be safely interrupted)...

> ProtocolError: <ProtocolError for koji.fedoraproject.org/kojihub: -1 >
> make: *** [koji] Error 1

koji disconnects after a while, and make interprets the non-zero return
code as an error. This is why I have "export KOJI_FLAGS="--nowait"" in
my cvs setup script.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From tcallawa at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 14:06:10 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:06:10 -0400
Subject: License file in multiple locations
In-Reply-To: <49E73B0A.1030703@smartlink.ee>
References: <49E73B0A.1030703@smartlink.ee>
Message-ID: <49E73B52.8070403@redhat.com>

On 04/16/2009 10:04 AM, Kalev Lember wrote:
> 3) Not to mark COPYING as %doc at all, and only install it in
> /usr/share/%{name}.

I would do this. If the app requires it at runtime, it's not %doc.

~spot



From jamatos at fc.up.pt  Thu Apr 16 14:11:14 2009
From: jamatos at fc.up.pt (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jos=E9_Matos?=)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:11:14 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090416 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090416133323.GB23779@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090416105808.7AF9C1F825D@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<20090416133323.GB23779@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200904161511.20196.jamatos@fc.up.pt>

On Thursday 16 April 2009 14:33:23 Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Also new today... rawhide is composed with deltarpms against the prior
> rawhide. Due to a bug, this is only currently working on i386; it should
> be fixed for other arches tomorrow.
>
> Please test and report any issues.

Is it necessary to install yum-presto to use/test this feature?

> Bill

-- 
Jos? Ab?lio



From hedayat at grad.com  Thu Apr 16 13:40:58 2009
From: hedayat at grad.com (Hedayat Vatankhah)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:10:58 +0430
Subject: [Fwd: Please help me with this build problem with dist-f10]
In-Reply-To: <20090416134152.01f39c35@faldor.intranet>
References: <49E6DA08.9070607@grad.com>
	<49E6EE11.7050908@redhat.com>	<49E716FD.8090506@grad.com>
	<20090416134152.01f39c35@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <49E7356A.8040407@grad.com>


/*Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at gmail.com>*/ wrote on ??/??/?? 04:11:52:
> On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:01:09 +0430, Hedayat wrote:
>
>   
>> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1287393&name=build.log
>>     
>
> Have you tried to recreate the autotools and libtool files manually
> yet instead of using autoreconf?
>
>   
Thank you for the suggestion! I was able to have a clean make call by 
using these commands instead of autoreconf. I wonder what is the problem 
though!

aclocal -I m4
automake
autoconf
autoheader
touch config.h.in

Thanks anyway,
Hedayat
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From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 16 14:21:48 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:21:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090416 changes
In-Reply-To: <200904161511.20196.jamatos@fc.up.pt>
References: <20090416105808.7AF9C1F825D@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<20090416133323.GB23779@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<200904161511.20196.jamatos@fc.up.pt>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904161021340.28351@localhost.localdomain>



On Thu, 16 Apr 2009, Jos? Matos wrote:

> On Thursday 16 April 2009 14:33:23 Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> Also new today... rawhide is composed with deltarpms against the prior
>> rawhide. Due to a bug, this is only currently working on i386; it should
>> be fixed for other arches tomorrow.
>>
>> Please test and report any issues.
>
> Is it necessary to install yum-presto to use/test this feature?

yes and in #fedora-qa on freenode we're having a presto test day.

-sv

From hedayat at grad.com  Thu Apr 16 14:25:28 2009
From: hedayat at grad.com (Hedayat Vatankhah)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:55:28 +0430
Subject: [Fwd: Please help me with this build problem with dist-f10]
In-Reply-To: <49E73487.8000302@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
References: <49E6DA08.9070607@grad.com> <49E73487.8000302@ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <49E73FD8.9070509@grad.com>



/*Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp>*/ wrote on ??/??/?? 06:07:11:
> Hedayat Vatankhah wrote, at 04/16/2009 04:11 PM +9:00:
>> Hi again!
>> Nobody can help me with this build problem in F10 and F9? :(
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Hedayat
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject:     Please help me with this build problem with dist-f10
>> Date:     Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:09:34 +0430
>> From:     Hedayat Vatankhah <hedayat at grad.com>
>> To:     Development discussions related to Fedora 
>> <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I built this package successfully in rawhide, but in Fedora 10 it 
>> fails. Would you please help me with this error:
>> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1282950&name=build.log 
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that there is something wrong with Fedora 10's 
>> libtool. The previous version of this package successfully compiled 
>> on Fedora 10, and I don't expect any changes in the new package in 
>> these areas!
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Hedayat
>
> Currently I cannot come up with better solution, however replacing
> local libtool created by configure with system-wide (/usr/bin/)libtool
> seems to work.
>
> srpm I used is put under:
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/scratch/mtasaka/task_1302019/
> koji task:
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1302019
Thanks a lot for considering my problem. I fixed the problem by 
replacing autoreconf command as I mentioned in my previous mail.

>
> Note:
> Please use 1%{?dist}.1 or so for release number to keep EVR order
> between F-11 <-> F-10 if you don't want to bump release number
> on F-11 for now.
Good point! I would certainly do wrong. :)

Good luck,
Hedayat

>
> Regards,
> Mamoru
>
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From nils at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 14:39:34 2009
From: nils at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:39:34 +0200
Subject: License file in multiple locations
In-Reply-To: <49E73B52.8070403@redhat.com>
References: <49E73B0A.1030703@smartlink.ee>  <49E73B52.8070403@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239892774.15093.69.camel@gibraltar.str.redhat.com>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 10:06 -0400, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> On 04/16/2009 10:04 AM, Kalev Lember wrote:
> > 3) Not to mark COPYING as %doc at all, and only install it in
> > /usr/share/%{name}.
> 
> I would do this. If the app requires it at runtime, it's not %doc.

You might even hardlink the file to both places, this would comfort
those who look for the license in %docdir and not waste space for the
majority of people where %docdir and %datadir are on the same volume.

Nils
-- 
Nils Philippsen      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase 
Red Hat               a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty
nils at redhat.com       nor Safety."  --  Benjamin Franklin, 1759
PGP fingerprint:      C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F  656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 16 14:21:11 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:21:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090416 changes 
In-Reply-To: <16069.1239889364@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <20090416105808.7AF9C1F825D@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<20090416133323.GB23779@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<16069.1239889364@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904161021050.28351@localhost.localdomain>



On Thu, 16 Apr 2009, Tom Lane wrote:

> Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> writes:
>> Also new today... rawhide is composed with deltarpms against the prior
>> rawhide. Due to a bug, this is only currently working on i386; it should
>> be fixed for other arches tomorrow.
>
> Uh ... what are the implications of that for someone trying to do a
> fresh install of rawhide?

Zero.

-sv



From jamatos at fc.up.pt  Thu Apr 16 14:47:20 2009
From: jamatos at fc.up.pt (=?utf-8?q?Jos=C3=A9_Matos?=)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:47:20 +0100
Subject: rawhide report: 20090416 changes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904161021340.28351@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090416105808.7AF9C1F825D@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<200904161511.20196.jamatos@fc.up.pt>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904161021340.28351@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904161547.20744.jamatos@fc.up.pt>

On Thursday 16 April 2009 15:21:48 Seth Vidal wrote:
> yes and in #fedora-qa on freenode we're having a presto test day.

You are right of course. I was reading the email sequentially and only later 
saw James' announce. I am sorry, my bad. :-(

On the upper side it worked. Updating from yesterday to today's rawhide:

Size of all updates downloaded from Presto-enabled repositories: 9.7M
Size of updates that would have been downloaded if Presto wasn't enabled: 36M
This is a savings of 74 percent

Thanks to all involved for the good work. :-)

> -sv

-- 
Jos? Ab?lio



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 15:32:43 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:32:43 -0700
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <gs7cdm$nia$3@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gs7cdm$nia$3@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239895963.3775.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 15:39 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Can you try dropping kdeartwork-screensavers and kdeartwork-kxs rather than
> kdegames? That's what we're doing in the KDE live image. Though if
> gnome-screensaver drags in the xscreensaver stuff anyway, it might not help
> that much for the DVD.

Hrm, I looked at those.  I'll try a compose today and see if that saves
the same amount or more space.  kdegames seemed to drag in SDL which
wasn't small, and it looked like the xscreensaver stuff wasn't overly
big but won't know until I try.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 15:33:34 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:33:34 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <1239896014.4354.130.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 09:28 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

> > You're putting words in my mouth. I have no particular opinion either
> > way. All I've ever said is that it isn't a big deal.
> Wrong, you are defending RH's decision not to revert this "ctl-alt-bs" 
> insanity, i.e. you have taken a position.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!! IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

No, I'm not. I said:

"Oh, come on, quit exaggerating. This is a pretty trivial issue. Grow a
sense of perspective."

That's not defending either position, just contending that the stature
of the issue as a whole is not very high.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 16 15:39:47 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:09:47 +0530
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <gs7cdm$nia$3@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gs7cdm$nia$3@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49E75143.2040908@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/16/2009 07:09 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
>> We've grown to the point of overflowing the DVD.  In order to save space
>> I've done a lot of testing and comparison.  The current strategy I see
>> for getting DVDs back in size is to drop a few things.
>>
>> @java-development
>> java-1.5.0-gcj-devel
>> gnome-games
>> kdegames
> 
> Can you try dropping kdeartwork-screensavers and kdeartwork-kxs rather than
> kdegames? That's what we're doing in the KDE live image. Though if
> gnome-screensaver drags in the xscreensaver stuff anyway, it might not help
> that much for the DVD.

gnome-screensaver is not dependent on xscreensaver.

Rahul



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 15:34:39 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:34:39 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net> <49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
Message-ID: <1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 10:35 +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> On 04/15/2009 08:59 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
> > is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
> 
> Yes, but why?

I don't *care*. Stop trying to argue with me. My only position on this
is it really doesn't matter as much as you all seem to think it does. I
don't care if it stays the way it is or gets patched, I just wish
everyone would quit wasting time bikeshedding about it.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From chris.stone at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 15:38:20 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:38:20 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net> <49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
	<1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904160838j4f6f766eje13dafcdbb62cfb9@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 10:35 +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
>> On 04/15/2009 08:59 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>> > Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
>> > is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
>>
>> Yes, but why?
>
> I don't *care*. Stop trying to argue with me. My only position on this
> is it really doesn't matter as much as you all seem to think it does. I
> don't care if it stays the way it is or gets patched, I just wish
> everyone would quit wasting time bikeshedding about it.

Funny how on every single thread about this issue people are either
vehemently against the change or they don't care.

I have yet to find someone who actually thinks changing the defaults
is a good idea.

And BTW, your comment about the amount of time wasted in this thread
vs the time that will be wasted by this change is hilarious, it proves
you have no clue.



From rayvd at bludgeon.org  Thu Apr 16 15:38:25 2009
From: rayvd at bludgeon.org (Ray Van Dolson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:38:25 -0700
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904152225x27faa8a3u17fd7fa04d5721c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
	<20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904152225x27faa8a3u17fd7fa04d5721c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090416153824.GA17161@bludgeon.org>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:25:31AM -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 19:44 -0700, Roland McGrath wrote:
> >> > Alternative: dual/double layer DVDs have come down in price a good bit.
> >> > /me ducks and runs
> >>
> >> More image flavors and sizes involves concerns for mirrors et al.
> >> But how about a jigdo-only (and torrent too?) reconstructable image
> >> of either a second dvd, or a dual-layer sized big dvd? ?Or even of
> >> 3x dual-layer dvd images to hold it all on "canonical" media images.
> >
> > Jigdo is a usability disaster. ?Our users have a hard enough time just
> > getting a direct iso download and burning it successfully, to try and
> > throw jigdo at them would be... painful.
> 
> 
> I would like some further explanation on this opinion of yours.
> 

Jigdo is one of the reasons I don't look forward to downloading the
fedoraunity respins :)  I guess it's easier on the bandwidth providers,
but ultimately much slower than downloading the normal Fedora ISO's
from a mirror.

Usually takes a couple runs to get all the files too.

Granted, I may be using a lousy client...

Ray



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 15:41:37 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:41:37 -0400
Subject: License file in multiple locations
In-Reply-To: <49E73B0A.1030703@smartlink.ee>
References: <49E73B0A.1030703@smartlink.ee>
Message-ID: <e76492710904160841o6357404dlc256f2847070c89c@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Kalev Lember  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am trying to package a program that expects to find its license file
> (COPYING) in /usr/share/%{name} to be able to show license text at
> runtime. However, standard practice is to install this file to the %doc
> directory in /usr/share/doc/%{name}-%{version}.
>
> What would be a good way to solve this? Right now I can see 4 different
> ways and each of it has its flaws:
>
> 1) Symlink the file from /usr/share/%{name} to the standard %doc
> directory. This doesn't seem to be a good idea, because then runtime
> would depend on the presence of %doc marked items.
>

I would do it the other way around. Put the original file in
/usr/share/%{name}, and they symlink will be in
%{_docdir}/%{name}-%{version} pointing to  /usr/share/%{name}/COPYING
.

Orcan



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Thu Apr 16 15:46:32 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:46:32 +0800
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <20090416153824.GA17161@bludgeon.org>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>	<20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>	<1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<16de708d0904152225x27faa8a3u17fd7fa04d5721c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090416153824.GA17161@bludgeon.org>
Message-ID: <49E752D8.1090805@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/16/2009 11:38 PM, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
> Jigdo is one of the reasons I don't look forward to downloading the
> fedoraunity respins :)  I guess it's easier on the bandwidth providers,
> but ultimately much slower than downloading the normal Fedora ISO's
> from a mirror.
>
> Usually takes a couple runs to get all the files too.
>
> Granted, I may be using a lousy client...
>
> Ray
>
>    
I know most people's experience with jigdo might have had some stumbling 
blocks, but I think, for the purposes of the Fedora Unity Respins and 
for any kind of release that is a partial update of a previous one, the 
concept of a jigdo release is excellent, ideally saving a lot of time 
and bandwidth.  It's worked well for me when I had a previous 
installation DVD or image available, but I also sympathize with the ones 
experiencing problems.  It just doesn't bother me as much, especially 
because I've been on relatively limited connections for nearly a year now.

By the way, as a side note, there are torrents for most of the Fedora 
Unity respins, so you can always get them through that 
(bandwidth-intensive) method as well.



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Thu Apr 16 15:53:50 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:53:50 +0800
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <20090416123623.GA550196@hiwaay.net>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E6D1C9.2060403@BitWagon.com>
	<20090416123623.GA550196@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <49E7548E.8070103@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/16/2009 08:36 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, John Reiser<jreiser at BitWagon.com>  said:
>    
>> Then I "yum install" and download only what I use, which often is about
>> 1/4 of what I would get by installing Software Development from a recent
>> Fedora DVD.  Make a separate Software Development "spin" (platter image)
>> if demand warrants.
>>      
>
> I know it might just encourage growth without limit, but would it be
> possible to have multiple DVDs?  Maybe we could have something along the
> lines of the original multi-CD setup, where everybody used disc1 (the
> installer, @core, @base, the other common stuff).  Then there could be a
> Development DVD; if you want dev tools installed, you download that disc
> and feed it to the intstaller.  Maybe a KDE DVD (and before anybody
> flames, I'm not picking on KDE; GNOME is the default in Fedora, so KDE
> _could_ be pushed to a separate disc).
>
> Obviously, the support for multiple discs is there for CDs, but I don't
> know if it could handle arbitrary discs instead of just 1, 2, 3, ...
> (and it is obviously too late for F11 anyway).
>
> What would then also be nice would be for secondary DVDs to use a
> different directory instead of Packages (kind of the way RHEL 5 does
> it).  Then it would be easy for someone with dual/double-layer DVDs to
> combine their favorite image with disc1 with nothing more than a basic
> DVD program (no need for createrepo or the like).
>    
I don't know how na?ve this makes me for supporting, but I like the idea 
of having a so-called "core" DVD followed-up by supplemental DVDs with 
additional software.  The Fedora 11 Beta DVD (i586) has 2,533 packages, 
while rawhide (currently) has 13,269.  While I'm not sure I want to say 
we should have /every/ package on the DVDs, I wouldn't mind having, as 
mentioned above, extra DVDs with groups content, especially where such 
content is relatively large, as is the sum of all development-related 
packages.  Installing from the Beta DVD as an additional repo has really 
saved me a lot of time.  Sure, I could make a local repo of rawhide too, 
but that would mean I'd need to download an enormous amount of data, 
which is exactly the scenario I'm trying to avoid.
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From bochecha at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 16 16:04:40 2009
From: bochecha at fedoraproject.org (Mathieu Bridon (bochecha))
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:04:40 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904160838j4f6f766eje13dafcdbb62cfb9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net> <49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
	<1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904160838j4f6f766eje13dafcdbb62cfb9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d319b780904160904n714de107t8a401e98af7c2d51@mail.gmail.com>

> I have yet to find someone who actually thinks changing the defaults
> is a good idea.

I think that's a good idea :
1. I used it once: accidentally
2. if I don't know that the shortcut exists, then there should be no
way for me to do something bad accidentally
3. if I know the shortcut exists, then it should be easy for me to make it work

Previously, only the third item was provided. This change introduces
the second one too (yes, the third one is still provided: it _is_ easy
to make it work, before the change it worked out of box).

BTW, the main reason you actually see more people complaining about
the change is because the people that this change is made for have
absolutely no idea that this shortcut exists and that it is being
disabled by default. How could they be happy about something they
don't know ?

> And BTW, your comment about the amount of time wasted in this thread
> vs the time that will be wasted by this change is hilarious, it proves
> you have no clue.

So you're saying that we should waste even more time in this thread so
that the amount of time wasted here is finally superior to the time
wasted by this change ?

Yeah, that's gonna be fun :)


----------

Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)



From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 16:28:22 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:28:22 -0700
Subject: mono-2.4 resolution for F11, needs doing by F12
In-Reply-To: <49E52A7B.7080201@gmail.com>
References: <49E52A7B.7080201@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E75CA6.1080101@gmail.com>

Toshio Kuratomi wrote:

> 1) We're able to build by linking the mono vm statically to libmono.
> AFAIK, libmono implements the runtime and the mono binary just wraps
> that up into an invokable program.  When we link dynamically, we get a
> stack overflow when using the built mono with mcs to compile c sharp
> files needed for the System library.  Interestingly, this fails on sparc
> (both solaris and fedora) as well, although the failure is different.
> 
> This is something we need to fix because we don't know why we're failing
> when linking this way.  There's a chance that other programs that want
> to embed the mono vm (via linking to libmono) will fail in similar ways
> to the mono binary in these circumstances.
> 
I've found some embedding sample code in the mono source that shows that
we get SegFaults when attempting to link to the dynamic libmono.so.
Hopefully those simpler examples will help in tracking down what's going
wrong.

> 2) We're not building for ppc64.  We haven't had mono on ppc64 before
> now and we generally run ppc32 userspace on ppc64 so this doesn't block
> F11.  If I understand all the communication about this, though, it
> should now be possible.  We just need to bootstrap this on F12 rawhide
> and make sure that it works.
> 
This has been done in the current devel branch.  The changes can be done
in the F11 branch as well if people want to build for ppc64 on F11.  So
only the dynamic linking/static linking needs to be resolved.

-Toshio

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From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 16:39:03 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:39:03 -0700
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1239895963.3775.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gs7cdm$nia$3@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239895963.3775.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239899943.3775.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 08:32 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 15:39 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > Can you try dropping kdeartwork-screensavers and kdeartwork-kxs rather than
> > kdegames? That's what we're doing in the KDE live image. Though if
> > gnome-screensaver drags in the xscreensaver stuff anyway, it might not help
> > that much for the DVD.
> 
> Hrm, I looked at those.  I'll try a compose today and see if that saves
> the same amount or more space.  kdegames seemed to drag in SDL which
> wasn't small, and it looked like the xscreensaver stuff wasn't overly
> big but won't know until I try.
> 

This seems to still save enough.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From denis at poolshark.org  Thu Apr 16 16:49:59 2009
From: denis at poolshark.org (Denis Leroy)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:49:59 +0200
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
Message-ID: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>

I'm seeing a lot of regressions with the 2.6.29 update to F-10 here. GDM 
doesn't always log me in (it hangs after the password is entered, 'top' 
doesn't show any stuck process), and when it did I had Xorg eat 100% CPU 
with little useful info in the log files.

What is the reasoning for pushing a 2.6.29 kernel to Fedora 10 (a stable 
release about half-way its lifetime) ? Was there something fundamentally 
wrong with the 2.6.27.x kernel ? Why introduce some much instability ?

I can understand there are people maybe waiting for new hardware support 
brought by this kernel, but woudn't they be better off with F-11 anyways?




From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 17:02:53 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:02:53 +0100
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

What is the status of bluetooth headsets and pulse audio for rawhide?
The release notes for pulseaudio 0.9.15 mention that as of that
release they should "just work" but the new pulse audio volume control
doesn't see the headset even though the headset is reporting as being
connected via the gnome bluetooth applet.

Peter



From rdieter at math.unl.edu  Thu Apr 16 17:04:11 2009
From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:04:11 -0500
Subject: kde leaked file descriptors: call for help
Message-ID: <gs7oec$5ma$1@ger.gmane.org>

selinux policy denials have long id'd kde's konsole app to be leaking file
descriptors.  It's been an open issue for awhile now, see:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=484370
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=180785

Unfortunatley, upstream developers, so far, haven't been able to reproduce
the problem.

Upon actively digging myself recently, it appears to be something that looks
worse than previously identified, going deeper than just konsole.  I've ran
out of ideas to track this further, any help/insight/pointers appreciated.

-- Rex



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Thu Apr 16 17:33:16 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:33:16 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239896014.4354.130.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>
	<1239896014.4354.130.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49E76BDC.8060602@freenet.de>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 09:28 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> 
>>> You're putting words in my mouth. I have no particular opinion either
>>> way. All I've ever said is that it isn't a big deal.
>> Wrong, you are defending RH's decision not to revert this "ctl-alt-bs" 
>> insanity, i.e. you have taken a position.
> 
> IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!! IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!
No, it's simply insanity, lack of knowledge and poor management.

> That's not defending either position, just contending that the stature
> of the issue as a whole is not very high.
Wait, until you'll be facing the consequences of this change - This 
change will hit not only newbies (they are used to reboot), it will hit 
the experienced users and sysadmins.

If they feel sufficiently pissed, they will quit and leave Fedora alone.



From joe at nall.com  Thu Apr 16 17:37:41 2009
From: joe at nall.com (Joe Nall)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:37:41 -0500
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
Message-ID: <66AD4DDB-A098-4FF1-B8FA-745AE1067DA6@nall.com>


On Apr 16, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Denis Leroy wrote:

> I'm seeing a lot of regressions with the 2.6.29 update to F-10 here.  
> GDM doesn't always log me in (it hangs after the password is  
> entered, 'top' doesn't show any stuck process), and when it did I  
> had Xorg eat 100% CPU with little useful info in the log files.

I've been running koji 2.6.29 builds on my main development box with  
no issues for a few weeks. Are you sure you didn't pick up something  
else?

> What is the reasoning for pushing a 2.6.29 kernel to Fedora 10 (a  
> stable release about half-way its lifetime) ? Was there something  
> fundamentally wrong with the 2.6.27.x kernel ? Why introduce some  
> much instability ?

I want the netlabel changes introduced in 2.6.28 and updated in 2.6.29.

> I can understand there are people maybe waiting for new hardware  
> support brought by this kernel, but woudn't they be better off with  
> F-11 anyways?

Not for me :)

joe




From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 17:44:23 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:44:23 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E76BDC.8060602@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>
	<1239896014.4354.130.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E76BDC.8060602@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <1239903863.3775.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 19:33 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> If they feel sufficiently pissed, they will quit and leave Fedora
> alone.

People threaten that all the time, and yet they never seem to follow
through.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From bnocera at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 17:55:45 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:55:45 +0100
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239904545.9313.1820.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 18:02 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> What is the status of bluetooth headsets and pulse audio for rawhide?
> The release notes for pulseaudio 0.9.15 mention that as of that
> release they should "just work" but the new pulse audio volume control
> doesn't see the headset even though the headset is reporting as being
> connected via the gnome bluetooth applet.

Did you install the pulseaudio-module-bluetooth sub-package?

I guess we should have gnome-bluetooth depend on it, to avoid surprises
like this.



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 16 17:56:19 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:56:19 +0200
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090416175619.GA26594@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 16.04.09 18:02, Peter Robinson (pbrobinson at gmail.com) wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> What is the status of bluetooth headsets and pulse audio for rawhide?
> The release notes for pulseaudio 0.9.15 mention that as of that
> release they should "just work" but the new pulse audio volume control
> doesn't see the headset even though the headset is reporting as being
> connected via the gnome bluetooth applet.

Yes, this should work. PA picks up all audio devices that are
connected via the bt applet.

Make sure to install pulseaudio-modules-bluetooth for this to work.

Use pavucontrol's 'Configuration' tab to switch between HSP/HFP and
A2DP profiles.

There are problems with HSP/HFP audio on some cheap BT dongles
(ISSSC). However A2DP works perfectly well (even with lip-sync video
playback) on all hw I have toyed around with here.

If it doesn't work for you the best way to debug things is running
'pulseaudio -vvvvv' in one terminal (as normal user, possibly killing pa
first) and 'bluetoothd -nd' in a second terminal (as root, possibly
killing it first). Then watch the output while you connect the headset
via the applet. If you are unable to read the output please paste it
somewhere and drop by the #pulseaudio channel on freenode or file a bug.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 16 17:57:49 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:57:49 +0200
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <1239904545.9313.1820.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239904545.9313.1820.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <20090416175749.GB26594@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 16.04.09 18:55, Bastien Nocera (bnocera at redhat.com) wrote:

> 
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 18:02 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > What is the status of bluetooth headsets and pulse audio for rawhide?
> > The release notes for pulseaudio 0.9.15 mention that as of that
> > release they should "just work" but the new pulse audio volume control
> > doesn't see the headset even though the headset is reporting as being
> > connected via the gnome bluetooth applet.
> 
> Did you install the pulseaudio-module-bluetooth sub-package?
> 
> I guess we should have gnome-bluetooth depend on it, to avoid surprises
> like this.

Might be a good idea, however it's already in comps so not strictly
necessary right now.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From bnocera at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 18:01:41 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:01:41 +0100
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <20090416175749.GB26594@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239904545.9313.1820.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<20090416175749.GB26594@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1239904901.9313.1827.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 19:57 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Thu, 16.04.09 18:55, Bastien Nocera (bnocera at redhat.com) wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 18:02 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
> > > Hi All,
> > > 
> > > What is the status of bluetooth headsets and pulse audio for rawhide?
> > > The release notes for pulseaudio 0.9.15 mention that as of that
> > > release they should "just work" but the new pulse audio volume control
> > > doesn't see the headset even though the headset is reporting as being
> > > connected via the gnome bluetooth applet.
> > 
> > Did you install the pulseaudio-module-bluetooth sub-package?
> > 
> > I guess we should have gnome-bluetooth depend on it, to avoid surprises
> > like this.
> 
> Might be a good idea, however it's already in comps so not strictly
> necessary right now.

That doesn't fix upgrades. Or installing gnome-bluetooth after the fact.



From orion at cora.nwra.com  Thu Apr 16 18:03:40 2009
From: orion at cora.nwra.com (Orion Poplawski)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:03:40 -0600
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
Message-ID: <49E772FC.2030902@cora.nwra.com>

Denis Leroy wrote:
> I'm seeing a lot of regressions with the 2.6.29 update to F-10 here. GDM 
> doesn't always log me in (it hangs after the password is entered, 'top' 
> doesn't show any stuck process), and when it did I had Xorg eat 100% CPU 
> with little useful info in the log files.
> 
> What is the reasoning for pushing a 2.6.29 kernel to Fedora 10 (a stable 
> release about half-way its lifetime) ? Was there something fundamentally 
> wrong with the 2.6.27.x kernel ? Why introduce some much instability ?

Works well here and fixes a number of intel graphics driver issues for me.

-- 
Orion Poplawski
Technical Manager                     303-415-9701 x222
NWRA/CoRA Division                    FAX: 303-415-9702
3380 Mitchell Lane                  orion at cora.nwra.com
Boulder, CO 80301              http://www.cora.nwra.com



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 18:12:27 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:12:27 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <20090415152033.GC11377@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org> 
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com> 
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904150808w40e7b7ads604bfbcc34ce66b7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090415152033.GC11377@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904161112s2fd9023ela033f2f1c818719c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil said:
>> I also believe that PulseAudio is a cancer, and it is growing. Even if
>> we are going to lose a leg to get rid of this cancer, we should do it
>> NOW. Otherwise it will spread and become irrevocable. The topic of the
>> discussion should be: How can we get rid of PulseAudio? How can we ban
>> this project for the good of humanity?
>
> Ban this project for the good of humanity?
>

Indeed.

> You know, one way to ensure you're not taken seriously is to elevate
> a few thousand lines of C code to something that needs to be exterminated
> for the future of the human race.

Maybe not directly. But having a broken audio server as a default is a
show stopper. It is a repellent for new people. And allowing it will
infect the Linux experience of everyone. I hope you got my point.


Orcan



From paul at xelerance.com  Thu Apr 16 18:17:39 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:17:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net> <49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904161406430.23391@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:

> > Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
> > is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
> 
> Yes, but why? There is no need to reboot the machine just because an
> application, X in this case, causes problem. You only have to kill X, and
> restart it, this is just what ctrl-alt-backspace have done in an excellent way
> for years. I frankly can not see why this feature should go, just because some
> few accidentally have pressed just that key sequence.

And in fact, anyone claiming that this is a good solution has a very bad
case of Windows mentality. Rebooting a machine is not nice. It might affect
other people. What if someone is running X to use virt-manager, and his
X session is stuck? Rebooting would be an awful solution. And we will have
many people who atthat point will be hitting ctrl-alt-bksp to see nothing
happen. Sure, they can try and ssh in, and sure they should have had sysctl
enabled, but this is really stretching the gains of the fix versus the
costs of the fix.

Every release (except f11) people have complained about the sbin directories
only being in root's path. Ever release people have complained about the -y
option for autofsck. every release some people have complained about the
mv/cp/rm aliases for root. EVery release people have complained about the
initrd's on dom0 not containing xenblock so the same initrd cannot be used
to boot guests.

But until ctrl-alt-bksp was disabled, I've never seen a flameware on
accidental key presses killing X on the fedora lists. And yes, it has
happened to me too, and I once confirmed ctrl-bksp would kill my X session
without the alt key, with no stuck alt keys, but it has happend to me twice
in the last 10 years. X locking up however, occurs to me somewhere at least
once every month or two. And I don't want to walk to another machine to
figure out the dhcp ip i got, hope i have ssh enabled, just so I don't have
to trash my machine.

There are solutions to please all parties involved, the suse patch. Not
doing that is simply ignoring user demand, and will contribute to a lesser
user experience.

Paul



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 18:28:37 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:28:37 -0700
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1239906517.3775.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 17:46 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> 
> @java-development
> java-1.5.0-gcj-devel

Actually it looks like just these removals were enough to give us the
space we need.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From paul at xelerance.com  Thu Apr 16 18:29:48 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:29:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904161419070.23391@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:

> way. All I've ever said is that it isn't a big deal. 

"17000 threads disagree with that opinion"

> Put it this way -
> the time lost by the possible drawbacks of *either* approach is
> extremely unlikely *ever* to add up to the amount of time and energy
> smart people have wasted in the seventeen thousand threads about this.

Are you going to wait for another 17000 threads to be wasted before
you think it is worth to reconsider? 

Indeed, I could have fixed a reported ldns bug in the time this
happened. I blame it on Xorg and Fedora that the bug is still there :P

"possible drawbacks" of the suse solution are not there. See my previous
email on the 10 years of lack of requesting a way to disable ctrl-alt-bksp.

People involved with Fedora are passionate. That's why they are involved.
You can't have the cake and eat it too. The fact that I maintain 20
packages is the same reason I wrote 20 emails about ctrl-alt-bksp. I
want it to be done right, and where possible to suppot multiple right
ways.

There is little effort and no harm involved in the suse patch, and there
is no reason not to accomodate these people.

My last patches to the nsd package was to acocmodate chroot. I despise
chroot. There is no sane reason for it compared to selinux. But there
was little effort involved to accomodate this person, so why not. 
And now fedora is better for people who like and who dislike chroot.
That is how contributors and users should interact. Note the lack of
17000 emails on the nsd chroot modifications.

Paul



From lars at homer.se  Thu Apr 16 18:29:45 2009
From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:29:45 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
	<1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49E77919.5020704@homer.se>

On 04/16/2009 05:34 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 10:35 +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
>> On 04/15/2009 08:59 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>>> Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
>>> is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
>> Yes, but why?
> 
> I don't *care*. Stop trying to argue with me. My only position on this
> is it really doesn't matter as much as you all seem to think it does. I
> don't care if it stays the way it is or gets patched, I just wish
> everyone would quit wasting time bikeshedding about it.

OK, so we should just sit here doing nothing when we see a change that 
*we* consider bad? Nah, better to speak up, I think.

You have the notion that this does not matter, but I, and apparently 
quite a few others, think it does.

Yes, they can just reboot, pressing ctrl-alt-del instead. But wait, that 
is another shortcut that people accidentally can press. Should we "zap" 
that one also? If not, why should we zap ctrl-alt-backspace, but not 
ctrl-alt-del? And if we zap both, they have to press the reset button, 
or switch the computer off and on again, a process that might cause loss 
of data, and even file system problems.

So my thinking is that this really matters.

Sure, a user might press ctrl-alt-backspace accidentally, but me feeling 
is that this is *not* such a recurrent event that we should remove a 
very useful function/keystroke from the system.

/Lars
-- 
Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/



From paul at xelerance.com  Thu Apr 16 18:30:48 2009
From: paul at xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:30:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904161430190.23391@newtla.xelerance.com>

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:

> In a corporate environment the network will be managed by a sysadmin who
> will easily be able to change the default.

I am sorry, I must have missed the new kickstart/anaconda option......

Paul 



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 18:41:41 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:41:41 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E77919.5020704@homer.se>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net> <49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
	<1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net> <49E77919.5020704@homer.se>
Message-ID: <1239907301.14173.3.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 20:29 +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> On 04/16/2009 05:34 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 10:35 +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> >> On 04/15/2009 08:59 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> >>> Haha :) No, it's just that, as far as I can see, the impact on newbies
> >>> is that we tell them to reboot instead of doing ctrl-alt-backspace.
> >> Yes, but why?
> > 
> > I don't *care*. Stop trying to argue with me. My only position on this
> > is it really doesn't matter as much as you all seem to think it does. I
> > don't care if it stays the way it is or gets patched, I just wish
> > everyone would quit wasting time bikeshedding about it.
> 
> OK, so we should just sit here doing nothing when we see a change that 
> *we* consider bad? Nah, better to speak up, I think.

No, I think after the twenty-three thousandth thread on the fiftieth
different mailing list rehearses the same three arguments *again*,
people should cut their damn losses and do something productive instead.

> You have the notion that this does not matter, but I, and apparently 
> quite a few others, think it does.

I have the notion that it doesn't matter anywhere near enough to be
worth this amount of grief. As I said: grow a sense of proportion.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 18:42:31 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:42:31 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904161430190.23391@newtla.xelerance.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>
	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0904161430190.23391@newtla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <1239907351.14173.4.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 14:30 -0400, Paul Wouters wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > In a corporate environment the network will be managed by a sysadmin who
> > will easily be able to change the default.
> 
> I am sorry, I must have missed the new kickstart/anaconda option......

Someone posted a very simple kickstart way to do this earlier in the
thread.

(waaaay earlier.)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From nathanael at gnat.ca  Thu Apr 16 18:43:29 2009
From: nathanael at gnat.ca (Nathanael D. Noblet)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:43:29 -0600
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
Message-ID: <49E77C51.7080603@gnat.ca>

Denis Leroy wrote:
> I'm seeing a lot of regressions with the 2.6.29 update to F-10 here. GDM 
> doesn't always log me in (it hangs after the password is entered, 'top' 
> doesn't show any stuck process), and when it did I had Xorg eat 100% CPU 
> with little useful info in the log files.
> 
> What is the reasoning for pushing a 2.6.29 kernel to Fedora 10 (a stable 
> release about half-way its lifetime) ? Was there something fundamentally 
> wrong with the 2.6.27.x kernel ? Why introduce some much instability ?
> 
> I can understand there are people maybe waiting for new hardware support 
> brought by this kernel, but woudn't they be better off with F-11 anyways?
> 
> 

I've been using koji builds of 2.6.29 on my machine here for what feels 
like months... The first reason I upgraded was to get a webcam working, 
then I found some issues with USB hadn't gone away, one more update and 
now I have a working webcam, and usb transfers at 7-15M/s instead of 
600K and bringing my machine to a standstill for hours. When did .29 hit 
fedora 10 stable? I could stop using koji builds... ;)

-- 
Nathanael d. Noblet
T: 403.875.4613



From jreiser at BitWagon.com  Thu Apr 16 18:44:51 2009
From: jreiser at BitWagon.com (John Reiser)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:44:51 -0700
Subject: kde leaked file descriptors: call for help
In-Reply-To: <gs7oec$5ma$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gs7oec$5ma$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49E77CA3.7060803@BitWagon.com>

Rex Dieter wrote:
> selinux policy denials have long id'd kde's konsole app to be leaking file
> descriptors. ...

Running under valgrind (memcheck) can help, but is costly in time and space.
"strace -f -e trace=open,close,dup,dup2" may help, and has reasonable overhead.
Setting O_CLOEXEC in every open(), except the ones you "know"
need to keep the fd open over execve(), can help you do a binary search.
Setting O_CLOEXEC may also mask the underlying logical problem, so beware.

> Unfortunatley, upstream developers, so far, haven't been able to reproduce
> the problem.

Neither https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=484370
nor http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=180785
mention anybody who can reproduce it.  So document *every* suspected instance.

-- 



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 19:14:04 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:14:04 +0100
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <1239904545.9313.1820.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239904545.9313.1820.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904161214n76bc42eaj9e5959083e52e909@mail.gmail.com>

>> What is the status of bluetooth headsets and pulse audio for rawhide?
>> The release notes for pulseaudio 0.9.15 mention that as of that
>> release they should "just work" but the new pulse audio volume control
>> doesn't see the headset even though the headset is reporting as being
>> connected via the gnome bluetooth applet.
>
> Did you install the pulseaudio-module-bluetooth sub-package?

No but I did do a "yum list pulseaudio* bluez*" to see if there was
one or a bluez-pa package but apparently earlier when I checked I
missed it in the list.

> I guess we should have gnome-bluetooth depend on it, to avoid surprises
> like this.

Might be a good idea :-)

Peter



From paul-fedora at saturnine.org.uk  Thu Apr 16 19:14:44 2009
From: paul-fedora at saturnine.org.uk (Paul Black)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:14:44 +0100
Subject: kde leaked file descriptors: call for help
In-Reply-To: <gs7oec$5ma$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gs7oec$5ma$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <a9274eb10904161214i4ce85723nb31f7185a3d29d79@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/16 Rex Dieter:
>
> selinux policy denials have long id'd kde's konsole app to be leaking file
> descriptors. ?It's been an open issue for awhile now, see:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=484370
> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=180785
>
> Unfortunatley, upstream developers, so far, haven't been able to reproduce
> the problem.
>
> Upon actively digging myself recently, it appears to be something that looks
> worse than previously identified, going deeper than just konsole. ?I've ran
> out of ideas to track this further, any help/insight/pointers appreciated.

I don't know if this is much of an insight ....

If I run "sleep 10000" on a console, using lsof I find the following
extra file descriptors open:
sleep???? 12640????? paul??? 4u???? unix 0xffff88009d543180?????? 0t0
 39745 socket
sleep???? 12640????? paul??? 9u???? unix 0xffff8800b8539e40?????? 0t0
 39985 /tmp/ksocket-paul/kdeinit4__0
sleep???? 12640????? paul?? 10u???? unix 0xffff88009d543180?????? 0t0
 39745 socket
sleep???? 12640????? paul?? 12u???? unix 0xffff88009d543180?????? 0t0
 39745 socket
sleep???? 12640????? paul?? 13u???? unix 0xffff88009d543180?????? 0t0
 39745 socket
sleep???? 12640????? paul?? 14u???? unix 0xffff88009d543180?????? 0t0
 39745 socket

These match up the the AVC denial from SELinux. Further playing with
lsof shows that the earliest processes with these open is kdeinit4.

Apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs.

--
Paul



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 19:15:03 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:15:03 +0100
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <1239904901.9313.1827.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239904545.9313.1820.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<20090416175749.GB26594@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1239904901.9313.1827.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904161215g5355b16bg2d7dddd2a4e347e0@mail.gmail.com>

>> > > What is the status of bluetooth headsets and pulse audio for rawhide?
>> > > The release notes for pulseaudio 0.9.15 mention that as of that
>> > > release they should "just work" but the new pulse audio volume control
>> > > doesn't see the headset even though the headset is reporting as being
>> > > connected via the gnome bluetooth applet.
>> >
>> > Did you install the pulseaudio-module-bluetooth sub-package?
>> >
>> > I guess we should have gnome-bluetooth depend on it, to avoid surprises
>> > like this.
>>
>> Might be a good idea, however it's already in comps so not strictly
>> necessary right now.
>
> That doesn't fix upgrades. Or installing gnome-bluetooth after the fact.

And I upgraded this system from F10 using yum.

Cheers,
Peter



From lars at homer.se  Thu Apr 16 19:23:02 2009
From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:23:02 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239907301.14173.3.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>	<1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E77919.5020704@homer.se>
	<1239907301.14173.3.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49E78596.4040402@homer.se>

On 04/16/2009 08:41 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 20:29 +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
>> OK, so we should just sit here doing nothing when we see a change that 
>> *we* consider bad? Nah, better to speak up, I think.
> 
> No, I think after the twenty-three thousandth thread on the fiftieth
> different mailing list rehearses the same three arguments *again*,
> people should cut their damn losses and do something productive instead.

Perhaps it is time listen to those "twenty-three thousandth thread on 
the fiftieth different mailing list". People whine for a reason, not 
just for the fun of it.

>> You have the notion that this does not matter, but I, and apparently 
>> quite a few others, think it does.
> 
> I have the notion that it doesn't matter anywhere near enough to be
> worth this amount of grief. As I said: grow a sense of proportion.

Speaking for myself, this keystroke is one of the things in the Linux 
world I really like. A very easy way to fix a problem that sadly still 
happens way to often, a stuck X-session. Simple and elegant. So for *me* 
it matters, and apparently so also for a bunch of others.

Proportions? Well, look at all those threads you mentioned, and you see 
the proportions...

/Lars
-- 
Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/



From mrmazda at ij.net  Thu Apr 16 19:40:32 2009
From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:40:32 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239903863.3775.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>	<1239896014.4354.130.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E76BDC.8060602@freenet.de>
	<1239903863.3775.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E789B0.8000602@ij.net>

On 2009/04/16 10:44 (GMT-0700) Jesse Keating composed:

> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 19:33 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

>> If they feel sufficiently pissed, they will quit and leave Fedora
>> alone.

> People threaten that all the time, and yet they never seem to follow
> through.

How exactly do you gather data on who does or does not leave after
threatening to leave?
-- 
"He who works his land will have abundant food, but the
one who chases fantasies will have his fill of poverty."
				Proverbs 28:19 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 19:50:05 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:50:05 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E789B0.8000602@ij.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net> <49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>
	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>
	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>
	<1239896014.4354.130.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E76BDC.8060602@freenet.de>
	<1239903863.3775.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net>
Message-ID: <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 15:40 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2009/04/16 10:44 (GMT-0700) Jesse Keating composed:
> 
> > On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 19:33 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> 
> >> If they feel sufficiently pissed, they will quit and leave Fedora
> >> alone.
> 
> > People threaten that all the time, and yet they never seem to follow
> > through.
> 
> How exactly do you gather data on who does or does not leave after
> threatening to leave?

The bit where they keep posting to the forum or mailing list in question
is usually a bit of a giveaway.

(You might know the two or three people I'm thinking of, here...:>)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 20:32:52 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:32:52 +0100
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <1239904545.9313.1820.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239904545.9313.1820.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904161332p3faefd74ncdbc2a87218e09d3@mail.gmail.com>

>> What is the status of bluetooth headsets and pulse audio for rawhide?
>> The release notes for pulseaudio 0.9.15 mention that as of that
>> release they should "just work" but the new pulse audio volume control
>> doesn't see the headset even though the headset is reporting as being
>> connected via the gnome bluetooth applet.
>
> Did you install the pulseaudio-module-bluetooth sub-package?

On installing this and then restarting the BT headset shows up in the
pulseaudio input/output list but if you go out of range of the laptop
with the headset when you reconnect to in from the bluetooth manager
it doesn't show up again in the sound preferences again automatically.
Is this expected?

Peter



From drepper at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 20:35:58 2009
From: drepper at redhat.com (Ulrich Drepper)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:35:58 -0700
Subject: kde leaked file descriptors: call for help
In-Reply-To: <gs7oec$5ma$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gs7oec$5ma$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49E796AE.3010407@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Rex Dieter wrote:
> Upon actively digging myself recently, it appears to be something that looks
> worse than previously identified, going deeper than just konsole.  I've ran
> out of ideas to track this further, any help/insight/pointers appreciated.

Use

  valgrind --track-fds=yes program args...

That'll show you which file descriptors are open at exit time and where
they originate.  Have the debug info installed for best results.

- --
? Ulrich Drepper ? Red Hat, Inc. ? 444 Castro St ? Mountain View, CA ?
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

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WEEAnRMz12OZ3pmG4yNa/Gn/QP4mB/L2
=5kU2
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From roland at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 20:36:46 2009
From: roland at redhat.com (Roland McGrath)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multilib/multiarch debuginfo
In-Reply-To: Jussi Lehtola's message of  Thursday, 16 April 2009 16:13:01 +0300
	<1239887581.23619.5.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
References: <1239887581.23619.5.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <20090416203646.4AC47FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>

> is there any way to get i386 debuginfo packages on x86_64 for e.g.
> libraries that are available also in 32-bit mode?

They are only in the i386 debuginfo repositories, not copied in x86_64/debug.
I looked for a --arch= option to yum or suchlike, but I couldn't find a
way to do it.



From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 20:37:05 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:37:05 +0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Friday 17 April 2009 00:50:05 Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 15:40 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
>
> (You might know the two or three people I'm thinking of, here...:>)
> --

Either drop this "two or three people" point or add me to the list too
 (so it will be four).

To anyone who still hopes the change will be reverted:
If You haven't figured it out Yourselves: The change *will not be reverted*.
Also please note that the people You're arguing with are usually (always?)
just random people who aren't the ones who made the decision.
And no, You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that 
previews behavior was better, far from saying that the change should be 
reverted.

Suren



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 16 20:57:26 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:57:26 +0200
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904161332p3faefd74ncdbc2a87218e09d3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239904545.9313.1820.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<5256d0b0904161332p3faefd74ncdbc2a87218e09d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090416205726.GA10727@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 16.04.09 21:32, Peter Robinson (pbrobinson at gmail.com) wrote:

> 
> >> What is the status of bluetooth headsets and pulse audio for rawhide?
> >> The release notes for pulseaudio 0.9.15 mention that as of that
> >> release they should "just work" but the new pulse audio volume control
> >> doesn't see the headset even though the headset is reporting as being
> >> connected via the gnome bluetooth applet.
> >
> > Did you install the pulseaudio-module-bluetooth sub-package?
> 
> On installing this and then restarting the BT headset shows up in the
> pulseaudio input/output list but if you go out of range of the laptop
> with the headset when you reconnect to in from the bluetooth manager
> it doesn't show up again in the sound preferences again automatically.
> Is this expected?

Hmm. There might be some issues left with that in the BT logic. Maybe
you can explicitly disconnect the headset in the applet and then
reconnect it again?

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 21:08:18 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:08:18 +0100
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <20090416205726.GA10727@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239904545.9313.1820.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<5256d0b0904161332p3faefd74ncdbc2a87218e09d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090416205726.GA10727@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904161408p7ce6886av9cb2ab49d5778c00@mail.gmail.com>

>> >> What is the status of bluetooth headsets and pulse audio for rawhide?
>> >> The release notes for pulseaudio 0.9.15 mention that as of that
>> >> release they should "just work" but the new pulse audio volume control
>> >> doesn't see the headset even though the headset is reporting as being
>> >> connected via the gnome bluetooth applet.
>> >
>> > Did you install the pulseaudio-module-bluetooth sub-package?
>>
>> On installing this and then restarting the BT headset shows up in the
>> pulseaudio input/output list but if you go out of range of the laptop
>> with the headset when you reconnect to in from the bluetooth manager
>> it doesn't show up again in the sound preferences again automatically.
>> Is this expected?
>
> Hmm. There might be some issues left with that in the BT logic. Maybe
> you can explicitly disconnect the headset in the applet and then
> reconnect it again?

I've tried a few things and after some looking it might actually be a
kernel oops. I've reported a bug here with the output from dmesg.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496141

Peter



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 21:34:37 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:34:37 -0700
Subject: Multilib/multiarch debuginfo
In-Reply-To: <20090416203646.4AC47FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
References: <1239887581.23619.5.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<20090416203646.4AC47FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
Message-ID: <1239917677.9867.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 13:36 -0700, Roland McGrath wrote:
> > is there any way to get i386 debuginfo packages on x86_64 for e.g.
> > libraries that are available also in 32-bit mode?
> 
> They are only in the i386 debuginfo repositories, not copied in x86_64/debug.
> I looked for a --arch= option to yum or suchlike, but I couldn't find a
> way to do it.

Debuginfo is not made multilib.  That pathway leads to insanity.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 21:55:51 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:55:51 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that 
> previews behavior was better

On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 16 21:57:09 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:57:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904161756230.28351@localhost.localdomain>



On Thu, 16 Apr 2009, Jesse Keating wrote:

> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
>> You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
>> previews behavior was better
>
> On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
> that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
> by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.

In a survey of 10 RH employees you will find between 10 and 40 different 
opinions. sometimes more if you don't ask some of them to confine their 
comments to a limited amount of time.

-sv



From roland at redhat.com  Thu Apr 16 22:00:32 2009
From: roland at redhat.com (Roland McGrath)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:00:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multilib/multiarch debuginfo
In-Reply-To: Jesse Keating's message of  Thursday, 16 April 2009 14:34:37 -0700
	<1239917677.9867.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239887581.23619.5.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<20090416203646.4AC47FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239917677.9867.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090416220032.D55B3FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>

> Debuginfo is not made multilib.  That pathway leads to insanity.

Sure.  What I was looking for was a way to tell yum to use a different
$basearch in repo lookup for one command.  That way may also lead to
insanity, I'm no authority on such things.  Another adequate option would
be some specialized yum-utils tool that can be told to go look at an
other-arch repo.  e.g. debuginfo-install --arch=i386 or something.

For some packages (kernel, bootloaders) even installing a debuginfo rpm
from a wholly other arch (--ignorearch) is actually useful and sensical.

Even just a "show me the rpm urls" and not trying to do any actual yumish
install operation would probably be useful to developers.  Maybe just a
repoquery option for other-arch repo lookups.


Thanks,
Roland



From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 22:07:12 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:07:12 +0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904170307.12720.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Friday 17 April 2009 02:55:51 Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> > You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
> > previews behavior was better
>
> On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
> that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
> by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.

In fact that was exactly what I was saying.
Of course there are (many) Red Hat employees who liked the previews default
(and also those who like the new default), but no one from the former group 
appeared in this discussion.



From thuforuk at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr 16 23:26:27 2009
From: thuforuk at yahoo.co.uk (Dariusz J. Garbowski)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:26:27 -0600
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239903863.3775.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>	<1239896014.4354.130.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E76BDC.8060602@freenet.de>
	<1239903863.3775.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E7BEA3.20107@yahoo.co.uk>

On 04/16/2009 11:44 AM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 19:33 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>   
>> If they feel sufficiently pissed, they will quit and leave Fedora
>> alone.
>>     
>
> People threaten that all the time, and yet they never seem to follow
> through.
>   

Ehmm... there was a time when Gnome's brain-dead file picker and 
swapping of Cancel/Ok button orders did it for me -- I switched to KDE 
permanently. There's a limit, where you just have enough. -> Some people 
follow through...

-- 
thufor


		
___________________________________________________________ 
Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" ? The Wall Street Journal 
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 16 23:58:06 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:58:06 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
Message-ID: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>

Heya,

there's one topic that keeps popping up in various discussions: can't
we get rid of /usr? The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
sense anymore. We could make /usr a symlink to / for an interims phase
and everything would be good for conservative folks who think the FHS
is the holy bible.

In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /. It's
unlikely that it's going to become less. Also, right now I am aware of
quite a few packages that don't get the seperation of / and /usr right
and rely on stuff from /usr during early bootup.

Let's eliminate this source of errors and clean up our file system
layout a bit. Let's drop /usr for F12!

And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
/usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not. Much more useful it would be if
/ in its entirety could be mounted ro. Debian allows that. It's not
too hard to make that work on fedora as well.

We wouldn't exactly be the first system without /usr as it seems. Hurd
does that too as I was informed. That makes at least one thing they
got right.

Let the flamefest begin!

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From icon at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 17 00:11:52 2009
From: icon at fedoraproject.org (Konstantin Ryabitsev)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:11:52 -0400
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <f8f6300f0904161711h9f681fpb65e72f50739da09@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Lennart Poettering
<mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
> And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
> /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not. Much more useful it would be if
> / in its entirety could be mounted ro. Debian allows that. It's not
> too hard to make that work on fedora as well.

I object on the ground that I routinely make a separate /usr partition
in order to avoid encrypting gigabytes of binaries. My partitioning
scheme usually is:

sda1 -> /boot
sda2 -> /usr
sda3 -> encrypted LVM with everything else

This scheme makes a significant difference for things like starting up
eclipse or OO.org on an underpowered laptop (or, really, any laptop
under battery power). Since portables is where FS encryption most
useful, getting rid of /usr will make it significantly more difficult
for me to conserve power and not waste it on needlessly
encrypting/decrypting binaries.

Regards,
-- 
Konstantin Ryabitsev
Montr?al, Qu?bec



From cchance at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 00:19:08 2009
From: cchance at redhat.com (Caius 'kaio' Chance)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:19:08 +1000
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49E7CAFC.90203@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Lennart Poettering ????????:
> Heya,
> Let's eliminate this source of errors and clean up our file system
> layout a bit. Let's drop /usr for F12!

Would this help saving the '--prefix=/usr' ?

- --
Caius Chance, Soft Eng, I18N, Red Hat APAC, cchance AT redhat DOT com
JP (Qual), RHCE, MCSE, CCNA, JLPT4, http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAknnyvsACgkQmo+B7bGj5dIHYgCgoZ6wvTw5YF3G2t3T3ZdjxIFC
T5IAn3QD6hZ72HL/KHvfF/TodNnPWPtM
=wrml
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 00:20:57 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 02:20:57 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49E7CAFC.90203@redhat.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E7CAFC.90203@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090417002056.GA23959@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 17.04.09 10:19, Caius 'kaio' Chance (cchance at redhat.com) wrote:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Lennart Poettering ????????:
> > Heya,
> > Let's eliminate this source of errors and clean up our file system
> > layout a bit. Let's drop /usr for F12!
> 
> Would this help saving the '--prefix=/usr' ?

Uh?

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 00:25:21 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 02:25:21 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <f8f6300f0904161711h9f681fpb65e72f50739da09@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<f8f6300f0904161711h9f681fpb65e72f50739da09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090417002521.GB23959@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 16.04.09 20:11, Konstantin Ryabitsev (icon at fedoraproject.org) wrote:

> 
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Lennart Poettering
> <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
> > And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
> > /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not. Much more useful it would be if
> > / in its entirety could be mounted ro. Debian allows that. It's not
> > too hard to make that work on fedora as well.
> 
> I object on the ground that I routinely make a separate /usr partition
> in order to avoid encrypting gigabytes of binaries. My partitioning
> scheme usually is:
> 
> sda1 -> /boot
> sda2 -> /usr
> sda3 -> encrypted LVM with everything else
> 
> This scheme makes a significant difference for things like starting up
> eclipse or OO.org on an underpowered laptop (or, really, any laptop
> under battery power). Since portables is where FS encryption most
> useful, getting rid of /usr will make it significantly more difficult
> for me to conserve power and not waste it on needlessly
> encrypting/decrypting binaries.

It would make more sense to make /home an encrypted partition and
leave / unencrypted.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From icon at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 17 00:34:50 2009
From: icon at fedoraproject.org (Konstantin Ryabitsev)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:34:50 -0400
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417002521.GB23959@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<f8f6300f0904161711h9f681fpb65e72f50739da09@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417002521.GB23959@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <f8f6300f0904161734w6b252ccdr8675dfbe3a14f3d1@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Lennart Poettering
<mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
>> This scheme makes a significant difference for things like starting up
>> eclipse or OO.org on an underpowered laptop (or, really, any laptop
>> under battery power). Since portables is where FS encryption most
>> useful, getting rid of /usr will make it significantly more difficult
>> for me to conserve power and not waste it on needlessly
>> encrypting/decrypting binaries.
>
> It would make more sense to make /home an encrypted partition and
> leave / unencrypted.

Not really -- I want to also encrypt stuff in /etc, /tmp and in /var
(configs, temp files, and app state data).

-- 
Konstantin Ryabitsev
Montr?al, Qu?bec



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 00:56:51 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 02:56:51 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <f8f6300f0904161734w6b252ccdr8675dfbe3a14f3d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<f8f6300f0904161711h9f681fpb65e72f50739da09@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417002521.GB23959@tango.0pointer.de>
	<f8f6300f0904161734w6b252ccdr8675dfbe3a14f3d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090417005651.GA25539@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 16.04.09 20:34, Konstantin Ryabitsev (icon at fedoraproject.org) wrote:

> 
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Lennart Poettering
> <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
> >> This scheme makes a significant difference for things like starting up
> >> eclipse or OO.org on an underpowered laptop (or, really, any laptop
> >> under battery power). Since portables is where FS encryption most
> >> useful, getting rid of /usr will make it significantly more difficult
> >> for me to conserve power and not waste it on needlessly
> >> encrypting/decrypting binaries.
> >
> > It would make more sense to make /home an encrypted partition and
> > leave / unencrypted.
> 
> Not really -- I want to also encrypt stuff in /etc, /tmp and in /var
> (configs, temp files, and app state data).

Not sure if that makes too much sense.

Either you are paranoid or you are not. Which means either you encrypt
everything. Or you encrypt only /home. Anything in between makes not
much sense. 

Also, while you might not directly notice this, but you silently lose
a lot of functionality by doing this. Quite a few udev rules require
stuff from /usr. If /usr is not available then they will be skipped.

Believe me: having /usr seperate is currently broken on Fedora. How do
I know? I used to run such a setup myself. And instead of trying to
fix that brokeness by moving more and more stuff to / let's just get
rid of this mess completely.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From a.badger at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 01:05:38 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:05:38 -0700
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49E7D5E2.5090406@gmail.com>

Lennart Poettering wrote:

> 
> Let the flamefest begin!
> 
I'm hereby giving notice that I don't have time to read obvious
flamefests anymore.  Once this thread concludes, please summarise
whatever the pros and cons are and send it to the packaging committee to
discuss and vote on.

If you want to get this changed locally in Fedora, as opposed to getting
the FHS changed, I'm going to want to see a lot more Pros than you have
so far before voting for the change.

-Toshio

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From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 01:14:05 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:14:05 -0700
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1239930845.14173.13.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:58 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Heya,
> 
> there's one topic that keeps popping up in various discussions: can't
> we get rid of /usr?

What are these discussions? What's the win exactly? This would no doubt
involve quite a lot of work and cause niggling problems here and there:
what are we winning to offset that loss?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 01:53:12 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:53:12 -0600
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <234fa2210904160152me0fb4ddwfbf0976e46889fb6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239822770.4354.103.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239824652.8860.3049.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<234fa2210904160152me0fb4ddwfbf0976e46889fb6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904161853r201d192oa7c6248d7ddf121@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Ilyes Gouta <ilyes.gouta at gmail.com> wrote:
> Alright, thank you guys for the information. I'm gonna try sysprof out, it
> looks like it's THE tool I'm looking for!

Has anyone compared sysprof with oprofile?  I'm going to need a system
profiler Real Soon Now, and I'm wondering how they compare to each
other.
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From sokerlp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 03:32:36 2009
From: sokerlp at gmail.com (Oscar<Soker>)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:32:36 -0500
Subject: Report a bug
Message-ID: <8536ef10904162032i33a9cf07u48aa5e251162be0c@mail.gmail.com>

I've been ahving some troubles with compiz, but I do not know where the logs
are or where can I see som error message since anything is sent to my
screen. The problem is that compiz is not showing some windows like
Conversation window on emesene, after disabling compiz I can access that
window again... is there any reported bug for that or how can I report a new
one
Atentamente Oscar:
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From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 03:46:20 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:16:20 +0530
Subject: File conflicts: nss-softokn-freebl and nss
In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0904122106v7627695fo42dd3c8b5f2f16ff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3170f42f0904122106v7627695fo42dd3c8b5f2f16ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904162046q5a5c9ef1wd37194e39556fe10@mail.gmail.com>

> Transaction Check Error:
> ?file /lib64/libfreebl3.so from install of
> nss-softokn-freebl-3.12.2.99.3-7.fc11.x86_64 conflicts with file from
> package nss-3.12.2.0-4.fc11.x86_64

I am still getting this with nss-softokn-freebl-3.12.3-3.fc11.x86_64.
Shall I file a bug?

Happy hacking,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 04:25:41 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:25:41 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <1239930845.14173.13.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1239930845.14173.13.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <f12087800904162125m61ba939dn60005b843dd145d7@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to keep /usr because I use /usr/local/ for backups and other
random things... really don't see a reason to nuke it anyways.

-Adam
(From my G1)

On Apr 16, 2009 8:14 PM, "Adam Williamson" <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:58 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: > Heya, > >
there's one topic that kee...
What are these discussions? What's the win exactly? This would no doubt
involve quite a lot of work and cause niggling problems here and there:
what are we winning to offset that loss?
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net

-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/list...
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From icon at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 17 04:25:48 2009
From: icon at fedoraproject.org (Konstantin Ryabitsev)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:25:48 -0400
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417005651.GA25539@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<f8f6300f0904161711h9f681fpb65e72f50739da09@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417002521.GB23959@tango.0pointer.de>
	<f8f6300f0904161734w6b252ccdr8675dfbe3a14f3d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417005651.GA25539@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <f8f6300f0904162125j3694db3aiba3826ef52825dbb@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Lennart Poettering
<mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
>> Not really -- I want to also encrypt stuff in /etc, /tmp and in /var
>> (configs, temp files, and app state data).
>
> Not sure if that makes too much sense.
>
> Either you are paranoid or you are not. Which means either you encrypt
> everything. Or you encrypt only /home. Anything in between makes not
> much sense.

That's not really a good argument -- in fact, it's not an argument at
all. There is absolutely nothing worth encrypting in /usr, while the
rest of the system may contain sensitive data. It has nothing to do
with being "paranoid" -- it's a very sensible trade-off between disk
encryption and performance + battery life, and it makes very good
sense -- I'd like to see a compelling argument for encrypting /usr
(apart from the danger of trojaning, which you're still running as
long as you boot from a /boot partition and not a trusted source, like
a keyfob that you never part with). Perhaps, if you are worried that
someone will come after you for installing proprietary codecs or
pirated software, but that's not something I'm concerned about.

> Also, while you might not directly notice this, but you silently lose
> a lot of functionality by doing this. Quite a few udev rules require
> stuff from /usr. If /usr is not available then they will be skipped.

How does my partitioning scheme make /usr unavailable at any point?
It's an unencrypted partition on sda2 -- considering that the rest is
a LUKS-encrypted LVM volume, the probability of something else failing
before ext3 on sda2 becomes unavailable is orders of magnitude higher.

> Believe me: having /usr seperate is currently broken on Fedora. How do
> I know? I used to run such a setup myself. And instead of trying to
> fix that brokeness by moving more and more stuff to / let's just get
> rid of this mess completely.

You wanted a reason not to? I gave a reason not to. If we decide that
the benefits of doing away with /usr outweigh drawbacks, then I will
find a way to live with it. I simply wanted to point out that being
able to mount the majority of system binaries on a separate partition
from the rest of the system has a tangible benefit.

Regards,
-- 
Konstantin Ryabitsev
Montr?al, Qu?bec



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Fri Apr 17 04:48:49 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 06:48:49 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Heya,
> 
> there's one topic that keeps popping up in various discussions: can't
> we get rid of /usr? The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
> sense anymore.
This is a very short-sighed view.

> We could make /usr a symlink to / for an interims phase
> and everything would be good for conservative folks who think the FHS
> is the holy bible.
Religiousity isn't the point - The point is: There are reasons for why 
the FHS rsp. the GNU standards are setup the way they are.

> In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /.
Not quite: Actually, only very few files have been moved from /usr
to /. The overwhelming majority resides in /usr.

> Let's eliminate this source of errors and clean up our file system
> layout a bit. Let's drop /usr for F12!
Well, I guess,  I don't have pronounce what I think about this proposal.

> And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
> /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not.
> Much more useful it would be if
> / in its entirety could be mounted ro. Debian allows that. It's not
> too hard to make that work on fedora as well.
You are oversimplifying.

Mounting / ro: will never work (/var, /tmp, /etc etc.) , while mounting 
/usr ro: should be pretty simply.

Actually, anything, which prevents mounting /usr ro: qualifies as plain 
and simple "system integration bug".

> We wouldn't exactly be the first system without /usr as it seems. 
Yes, Windows never had it and other crippled *nix variants who aimed at 
imitating Windows IIRC, have tried to avoid it also.



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Fri Apr 17 05:28:30 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 07:28:30 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239903863.3775.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6B1F8.5000208@freenet.de>	<1239858549.4354.127.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904152250m79356768sd27c8a53a8e44e1e@mail.gmail.com>	<1239863674.4354.128.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6DE27.6050004@freenet.de>	<1239896014.4354.130.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E76BDC.8060602@freenet.de>
	<1239903863.3775.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E8137E.7000407@freenet.de>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 19:33 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> If they feel sufficiently pissed, they will quit and leave Fedora
>> alone.
> 
> People threaten that all the time, and yet they never seem to follow
> through.

Yes,
* as a developer, I like Fedora
* as sysadmin, I find Fedora has derailed and become increasingly unusable.
* as desktop user, it doesn't need much and I can't avoid "calling 
Fedora's desktop" crap.
* as Fedora project participant, Fedora's leadership and some @RH's 
behavior gradually drives me off.

... the problem is lack of better alternatives.

.. and me not having giving up hope on Fedora.

Ralf






From poelstra at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 04:33:38 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:33:38 -0700
Subject: Final Reminder: F11 Features Not at 100%
Message-ID: <49E806A2.1050100@redhat.com>

Thanks for all your hard work to make these features a reality.  We just 
need a little more information and one final update :)

Feature freeze has past and the following feature pages still need 
updates.  Some have not been updated for several months.  All need to be 
at 100% completion and their content set to reflect that.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Ext4DefaultFs
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/gcc4.4
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/IntelKMS
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewTextUI
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NouveauModesetting
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MultiplePAMStacksInGDM
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PowerManagement
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/EFI
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/XserverOnePointSix
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Python_2.6

I'm forwarding these to FESCo for discussion at their meeting tomorrow. 
  Please update your page before 12 PM EDT so that they do not need to 
review it.

Thank you,
John

p.s. All feature owners have been bcc'd on this message as well as the 
previous reminder.

_______________________________________________
Fedora-devel-announce mailing list
Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Fri Apr 17 06:02:25 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:02:25 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904161756230.28351@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net>
	<1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904161756230.28351@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E81B71.8040907@freenet.de>

Seth Vidal wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 16 Apr 2009, Jesse Keating wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
>>> You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
>>> previews behavior was better
>>
>> On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
>> that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
>> by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.
> 
> In a survey of 10 RH employees you will find between 10 and 40 different 
> opinions. sometimes more if you don't ask some of them to confine their 
> comments to a limited amount of time.
Classical situation to call "the management", let them decide and to 
name "someone to be in charge/responsible".

Unfortunately, this current FESCO has refused to decide.





From nman64 at n-man.com  Fri Apr 17 06:19:34 2009
From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:19:34 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49E7CAFC.90203@redhat.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E7CAFC.90203@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200904170119.37969.nman64@n-man.com>

On Thursday 16 April 2009 19:19:08 Caius 'kaio' Chance wrote:
>
> Would this help saving the '--prefix=/usr' ?
>

Whatever you are doing on a Fedora system that includes "--prefix=/usr", you 
are almost certainly doing it wrong.

-- 
Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes
nman64 at n-man.com

http://n-man.com/

LinkedIn:
http://linkedin.com/in/nman64

Have I been helpful?  Rate my assistance!
http://rate.affero.net/nman64/

All messages cryptographically signed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP
-- 


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From zaitcev at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 06:22:54 2009
From: zaitcev at redhat.com (Pete Zaitcev)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:22:54 -0600
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <20090417002254.878e1b30.zaitcev@redhat.com>

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:58:06 +0200, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:

> Let's eliminate this source of errors and clean up our file system
> layout a bit. Let's drop /usr for F12!

A poorly specified "cleanup" is not a good reason to introduce
a change so radical, with disadvantages so severe.

> And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
> /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not.

That's purely your opinion, presented without any arguments.

-- Pete



From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Fri Apr 17 06:29:34 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:29:34 +0300
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904162125m61ba939dn60005b843dd145d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1239930845.14173.13.camel@adam.local.net>
	<f12087800904162125m61ba939dn60005b843dd145d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904170929.35065.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>




On Friday 17 April 2009 07:25:41 Adam Miller wrote:
> I would like to keep /usr because I use /usr/local/ for backups and other
> random things... really don't see a reason to nuke it anyways.

Btw, why the local is mounted under /usr anyway? Why not directly
to /local ?

Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From jzeleny at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 07:08:21 2009
From: jzeleny at redhat.com (Jan =?iso-8859-1?q?Zelen=FD?=)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:08:21 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <200904170908.21270.jzeleny@redhat.com>

Hi,
> The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
> sense anymore.

I don't think that's true. How about one /usr ro mounted via network to 
several machines?

--
Jan



From kevinverma at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 17 07:11:29 2009
From: kevinverma at fedoraproject.org (Kevin Verma)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:41:29 +0530
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <e319fc130904170011p40fe27edi72b69e004b7953f2@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:28 AM, Lennart Poettering
<mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
> Heya,
>
> there's one topic that keeps popping up in various discussions: can't
> we get rid of /usr? The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
> sense anymore. We could make /usr a symlink to / for an interims phase
> and everything would be good for conservative folks who think the FHS
> is the holy bible.
>

By practice separate "/" provides a minimal system that sysadmins
trusts will work when anything in "/usr" breaks. Also a minimal
filesystem that is quick & easy to repair/restore and can even remote
mount a "/usr" if needed.

You are asking to clutter "/" , What are you really trying to solve ?
maybe you should work to settle standards for $HOME first that is the
major pain area for a non-conservative user.

~conservatives

> In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /. It's
> unlikely that it's going to become less. Also, right now I am aware of
> quite a few packages that don't get the seperation of / and /usr right
> and rely on stuff from /usr during early bootup.
>
> Let's eliminate this source of errors and clean up our file system
> layout a bit. Let's drop /usr for F12!
>
> And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
> /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not. Much more useful it would be if
> / in its entirety could be mounted ro. Debian allows that. It's not
> too hard to make that work on fedora as well.
>
> We wouldn't exactly be the first system without /usr as it seems. Hurd
> does that too as I was informed. That makes at least one thing they
> got right.
>
> Let the flamefest begin!
>
> Lennart



From david at hlacik.eu  Fri Apr 17 07:35:26 2009
From: david at hlacik.eu (=?ISO-8859-2?B?RGF2aWQgSGzh6Glr?=)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:35:26 +0200
Subject: Fwd: LCD patches
In-Reply-To: <cba415ca0904170030v1a62f6e4p76f9b7e6d4dbfa70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cba415ca0904170030v1a62f6e4p76f9b7e6d4dbfa70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cba415ca0904170035x10992a15q53195f9b731d6d1c@mail.gmail.com>

Dear developers,

please have a look if possible  at those 2 bugs in Bugzilla I have just
created
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496191
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496192

Those are about the patches extracted from Ubuntu , which are about to bring
improved font rendering for our Fedora, the same way as Ubuntu does.

Additionally, I would love to if I could be a co-maintainer of cairo and
libXft.

Thanks in advance,

David Hlacik
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From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Fri Apr 17 08:19:19 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:19:19 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49E83B87.1080703@hhs.nl>

On 04/17/2009 01:58 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Heya,
>
> there's one topic that keeps popping up in various discussions: can't
> we get rid of /usr? The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
> sense anymore. We could make /usr a symlink to / for an interims phase
> and everything would be good for conservative folks who think the FHS
> is the holy bible.
>
> In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /. It's
> unlikely that it's going to become less. Also, right now I am aware of
> quite a few packages that don't get the seperation of / and /usr right
> and rely on stuff from /usr during early bootup.
>
> Let's eliminate this source of errors and clean up our file system
> layout a bit. Let's drop /usr for F12!
>
> And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
> /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not. Much more useful it would be if
> / in its entirety could be mounted ro. Debian allows that. It's not
> too hard to make that work on fedora as well.
>
> We wouldn't exactly be the first system without /usr as it seems. Hurd
> does that too as I was informed. That makes at least one thing they
> got right.
>
> Let the flamefest begin!
>

I think that getting rid of /usr is a pretty pointless excercise in moving
things around. What we do need todo is better document in which scenarios
having /usr on a separate partition then / is supported and in which not.

That would seriously limit the amount of stuff which would need to be
moved to / , for example having a separate /usr on a network based
filesystem (or blockdevice such as iscsi) will not work, as netfs now
a days get mounted after NetworkManager and NM itself lives in /usr.

So what we need is a good document describing which combo's of separate
/ and /usr we do support and which we do not, more in general a document
which describes which dirs may be on separate partitions from / would be
good as I've for example seen bug reports that having /var on a separate
partitions has issues (to which my reply then is, well don't do that you
silly).

Regards,

Hans



From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Fri Apr 17 08:20:29 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:20:29 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <200904170908.21270.jzeleny@redhat.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904170908.21270.jzeleny@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E83BCD.7050207@hhs.nl>

On 04/17/2009 09:08 AM, Jan Zelen? wrote:
> Hi,
>> The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
>> sense anymore.
>
> I don't think that's true. How about one /usr ro mounted via network to
> several machines?
>

This has not worked for the last X Fedora releases, due to us using Network
Manager to bring up the Network, and NM living in /usr, see my other reply in
this thread.

Regards,

Hans



From wtogami at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 08:24:27 2009
From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 04:24:27 -0400
Subject: useradd creating 0766 homedir permission?
Message-ID: <49E83CBB.6030809@redhat.com>

[root at newcaprica home]# useradd test
[root at newcaprica home]# ls -al
total 20
drwxr-xr-x.   5 root   root   4096 2009-04-17 04:17 .
drwxr-xr-x.  24 root   root   4096 2009-04-16 22:38 ..
drw-rw--w-.   4 test   test   4096 2009-04-17 04:17 test

/home/test is 0766.  That can't possibly be correct?

Attempting to login to this user is pretty broken.

Warren Togami
wtogami at redhat.com



From ilyes.gouta at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 08:26:20 2009
From: ilyes.gouta at gmail.com (Ilyes Gouta)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:26:20 +0100
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904161853r201d192oa7c6248d7ddf121@mail.gmail.com>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1239822770.4354.103.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239824652.8860.3049.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com> 
	<234fa2210904160152me0fb4ddwfbf0976e46889fb6@mail.gmail.com> 
	<870180fe0904161853r201d192oa7c6248d7ddf121@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <234fa2210904170126j4886bec7v4002c07813c7879c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Do I have to install the -debuginfo equivalent of the packages I intend to
profile? Were the -release packages already compiled with -O2 -g flags so
that we already have the necessary debugging information embedded into the
code? Or is it just some core libraries (like pthread) that it would be nice
to have their symbols in a core dump?

What about X? On the sysprof website, it's mentioned that it has to be
recompiled from source and to avoid the generation of static modules.. Is it
the case for the X server shipped with Fedora?

Regards,
Ilyes Gouta.

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:53 AM, Jerry James <loganjerry at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Ilyes Gouta <ilyes.gouta at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Alright, thank you guys for the information. I'm gonna try sysprof out,
> it
> > looks like it's THE tool I'm looking for!
>
> Has anyone compared sysprof with oprofile?  I'm going to need a system
> profiler Real Soon Now, and I'm wondering how they compare to each
> other.
> --
> Jerry James
> http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From nman64 at n-man.com  Fri Apr 17 08:47:52 2009
From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:47:52 -0500
Subject: useradd creating 0766 homedir permission?
In-Reply-To: <49E83CBB.6030809@redhat.com>
References: <49E83CBB.6030809@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200904170347.56562.nman64@n-man.com>

On Friday 17 April 2009 03:24:27 Warren Togami wrote:
> [root at newcaprica home]# useradd test
> [root at newcaprica home]# ls -al
> total 20
> drwxr-xr-x.   5 root   root   4096 2009-04-17 04:17 .
> drwxr-xr-x.  24 root   root   4096 2009-04-16 22:38 ..
> drw-rw--w-.   4 test   test   4096 2009-04-17 04:17 test
>
> /home/test is 0766.  That can't possibly be correct?
>

From the paste above, it looks more like 0662 on "test", which is even further 
from the 0700 I would expect.

With craziness like that, it's no wonder New Caprica fell, but I doubt we can 
blame the Cylons for this one.

-- 
Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes
nman64 at n-man.com

http://n-man.com/

LinkedIn:
http://linkedin.com/in/nman64

Have I been helpful?  Rate my assistance!
http://rate.affero.net/nman64/

All messages cryptographically signed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP
-- 


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From ffesti at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 08:55:50 2009
From: ffesti at redhat.com (Florian Festi)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:55:50 +0200
Subject: useradd creating 0766 homedir permission?
In-Reply-To: <49E83CBB.6030809@redhat.com>
References: <49E83CBB.6030809@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E84416.7010606@redhat.com>

Warren Togami wrote:
> [root at newcaprica home]# useradd test
> [root at newcaprica home]# ls -al
> total 20
> drwxr-xr-x.   5 root   root   4096 2009-04-17 04:17 .
> drwxr-xr-x.  24 root   root   4096 2009-04-16 22:38 ..
> drw-rw--w-.   4 test   test   4096 2009-04-17 04:17 test
> 
> /home/test is 0766.  That can't possibly be correct?
> 
> Attempting to login to this user is pretty broken.

Try again and then check your umask setting.

Florian



From msivak at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 09:01:43 2009
From: msivak at redhat.com (Martin Sivak)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 05:01:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <671838385.924161239958880597.JavaMail.root@zmail06.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1514561582.924181239958903181.JavaMail.root@zmail06.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>

Hi,

I personaly still think, that sticking to Filesystem Hierarchy Standard () makes sense more than randomly changing the layout all long-term users are familiar with.

And although Hans is right, it is not a feature, it is a bug and needs to be fixed! I still use ro mounted /usr at home and I want that feature even if most of the people (who seem to be trying to "simplify" thinks for desktop users) have no idea about the possibility.

We are abandoning all ideas behind the layout and changing it because some desktop folks think that it is the best solution for everyone - Is is NOT (see the Server SIG on wiki please).

Martin

----- "Hans de Goede" <j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl> wrote:

> On 04/17/2009 09:08 AM, Jan Zelen? wrote:
> > Hi,
> >> The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
> >> sense anymore.
> >
> > I don't think that's true. How about one /usr ro mounted via network
> to
> > several machines?
> >
> 
> This has not worked for the last X Fedora releases, due to us using
> Network
> Manager to bring up the Network, and NM living in /usr, see my other
> reply in
> this thread.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Hans
> 
> -- 
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list



From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com  Fri Apr 17 09:02:48 2009
From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:02:48 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1239958968.3379.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Freitag, den 17.04.2009, 01:58 +0200 schrieb Lennart Poettering:

> And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
> /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not. Much more useful it would be if
> / in its entirety could be mounted ro.

How about /.autofsck and /.autorelabel?

Regards,
Christoph



From k.georgiou at imperial.ac.uk  Fri Apr 17 09:47:28 2009
From: k.georgiou at imperial.ac.uk (Kostas Georgiou)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:47:28 +0100
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49E83B87.1080703@hhs.nl>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E83B87.1080703@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <20090417094727.GA852@imperial.ac.uk>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 10:19:19AM +0200, Hans de Goede wrote:

> That would seriously limit the amount of stuff which would need to be
> moved to / , for example having a separate /usr on a network based
> filesystem (or blockdevice such as iscsi) will not work, as netfs now
> a days get mounted after NetworkManager and NM itself lives in /usr.

I'll be very surprised if anyone that mounts /usr from the network
has NM enabled. I at least keep NM only in laptop installs for anything
else it is disabled as early as possible.

Kostas



From benny+usenet at amorsen.dk  Fri Apr 17 09:52:35 2009
From: benny+usenet at amorsen.dk (Benny Amorsen)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:52:35 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de> (Lennart Poettering's
	message of "Fri\, 17 Apr 2009 01\:58\:06 +0200")
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <m3iql34nfg.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>

Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> writes:

> Let's eliminate this source of errors and clean up our file system
> layout a bit. Let's drop /usr for F12!

Fedora is traditionally very conservative when it comes to anything that
involves file paths. Witness the "/sbin in the default PATH" flamewar,
which would probably have been solved best by turning /sbin into an
empty directory except for a bunch of symlinks. Instead Fedora (finally)
went with what others do: add /sbin to the default PATH.

If we can't get rid of /sbin, what are the chances that we can get rid
of /usr?


/Benny



From snecklifter at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 10:02:28 2009
From: snecklifter at gmail.com (Christopher Brown)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:02:28 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/16 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
>> You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
>> previews behavior was better
>
> On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
> that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
> by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.

How sad a statement that truly is.

Jesse, I'm a big fan of the all work that you do (it doesn't go
unnoticed) and likely this comment has come off the back of getting
annoyed of the amount of discussion there has been on the issue but if
you really think that arguing about changes to default behaviour in
Fedora is a waste of time then I'm not sure what to say.

The dissent, for the most part, shows how passionate people are about
these changes. It is most certainly not a waste of time.

-- 
Christopher Brown



From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Fri Apr 17 10:16:29 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:16:29 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417094727.GA852@imperial.ac.uk>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<49E83B87.1080703@hhs.nl>
	<20090417094727.GA852@imperial.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <49E856FD.90004@hhs.nl>

On 04/17/2009 11:47 AM, Kostas Georgiou wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 10:19:19AM +0200, Hans de Goede wrote:
>
>> That would seriously limit the amount of stuff which would need to be
>> moved to / , for example having a separate /usr on a network based
>> filesystem (or blockdevice such as iscsi) will not work, as netfs now
>> a days get mounted after NetworkManager and NM itself lives in /usr.
>
> I'll be very surprised if anyone that mounts /usr from the network
> has NM enabled. I at least keep NM only in laptop installs for anything
> else it is disabled as early as possible.
>

Ack, then we could put that in the doc, that /usr on a network based
filesystem (or blockdevice such as iscsi) is not supported with NM, or
whatever. I'm not trying to say what we should put in such a doc, this
is just an example. I'm merely trying to argue we need a Document
describing what we do and do not support wrt to having a separate /usr

Think for example something weird like /usr on fuse, do we want to support
that? Note that given the infinite amount of possibilities it is probably
the best to only describe what we do support.

Regards,

Hans



From opensource at till.name  Fri Apr 17 12:45:58 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:45:58 +0200
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <1239820394.4354.97.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904151855.16611.opensource@till.name>
	<1239820394.4354.97.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <200904171445.59235.opensource@till.name>

On Mi April 15 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 18:55 +0200, Till Maas wrote:
> > On Mi April 15 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > > Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > > > In my opinion, we should send people to manually compile and test
> > > > the trunk and help the development
> > >
> > > Users do not manually compile their software, and especially not from
> > > trunk. If you want users to test your work, you need to do actually
> > > packagable releases, even beta ones, but not completely broken ones
> > > with no stable API/ABI and with plugins and apps in various states of
> > > brokenness and/or bitrot.
> >
> > Also one needs a configuration file that should work with the software or
> > at least some documentation about how to create one. So if someone has
> > this for the syncml (for nokia devices) and the file plugin, please share
> > it with me.

> If you're talking about 0.3, forget it. For 0.22, there's a commented

I was talking abount 0.3, which is also the branch that is currently available 
in F10 btw. It's strange, that even nobody knows how it should be configured, 
because the syncml-ds-tool works here without any problems to get my contacts 
from my phone to my Fedora box, but it is the other way round, that I really 
need. I guess I will try it with 0.22 then some day or do it somehow with 
python :-).

Regards,
Till

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From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Fri Apr 17 12:52:26 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 07:52:26 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <20090417125226.GB1322964@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> said:
> In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /.

Only things needed for boot have been moved to /.

> And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
> /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not.

You're wrong.  On my servers, I make a small / and bigger /usr (mounted
ro).  The small / has a big advantage: less likely to fail.

Real-world example: I recently had a drive failure (actually multiple
drive failure in a RAID), and /usr was corrupted beyond repair.  I was
still able to boot in "emergency" mode, mounting only /, and restore
/usr from tape.

-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Fri Apr 17 12:54:28 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 07:54:28 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <20090417125428.GC1322964@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> said:
> We could make /usr a symlink to / for an interims phase
> and everything would be good for conservative folks who think the FHS
> is the holy bible.

Aside from any "religious" debate, there's a practical problem: last
time anything like this was tried, rpm couldn't handle moving
directories to symlinks.  That's why init.d is still under /etc/rc.d
instead of just /etc (and /etc/init.d is a symlink).

-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From cra at WPI.EDU  Fri Apr 17 13:18:24 2009
From: cra at WPI.EDU (Chuck Anderson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:18:24 -0400
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49E83BCD.7050207@hhs.nl>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904170908.21270.jzeleny@redhat.com> <49E83BCD.7050207@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <20090417131824.GV15857@angus.ind.WPI.EDU>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 10:20:29AM +0200, Hans de Goede wrote:
> On 04/17/2009 09:08 AM, Jan Zelen? wrote:
>> Hi,
>>> The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
>>> sense anymore.
>>
>> I don't think that's true. How about one /usr ro mounted via network to
>> several machines?
>>
>
> This has not worked for the last X Fedora releases, due to us using Network
> Manager to bring up the Network, and NM living in /usr, see my other reply in
> this thread.

Except that it makes little sense to use NetworkManager on a system 
that mounts NFS /usr.  You can still use the old network script.



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 13:34:32 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:34:32 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 17.04.09 06:48, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203 at freenet.de) wrote:

>
> Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> Heya,
>>
>> there's one topic that keeps popping up in various discussions: can't
>> we get rid of /usr? The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
>> sense anymore.
>
> This is a very short-sighed view.

Oh, is it?

>> We could make /usr a symlink to / for an interims phase
>> and everything would be good for conservative folks who think the FHS
>> is the holy bible.
>
> Religiousity isn't the point - The point is: There are reasons for why  
> the FHS rsp. the GNU standards are setup the way they are.

First of all FHS is not a "GNU standard". 

Secondly, it is of course very convincing if you just nebulously say
'there are rasons' instead of mentioning any.

>> And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
>> /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not.
>> Much more useful it would be if
>> / in its entirety could be mounted ro. Debian allows that. It's not
>> too hard to make that work on fedora as well.
> You are oversimplifying.
>
> Mounting / ro: will never work (/var, /tmp, /etc etc.) , while mounting  
> /usr ro: should be pretty simply.

On Debian /etc doesn't need to be rw. And it wouldn't be too difficult
to allow the same on Fedora.

/tmp and /var should of course be mounted writable.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 13:36:49 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:36:49 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904162125m61ba939dn60005b843dd145d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1239930845.14173.13.camel@adam.local.net>
	<f12087800904162125m61ba939dn60005b843dd145d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090417133649.GB9790@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 16.04.09 23:25, Adam Miller (maxamillion at gmail.com) wrote:

> I would like to keep /usr because I use /usr/local/ for backups and other
> random things... really don't see a reason to nuke it anyways.

I don't think sticking backups into /usr/local is the right place for
them. But that doesn't even matter given that /usr/local would of
course become /local.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Fri Apr 17 13:50:32 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:50:32 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49E88928.1060805@freenet.de>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 17.04.09 06:48, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203 at freenet.de) wrote:
> 
>> Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>> Heya,
>>>
>>> there's one topic that keeps popping up in various discussions: can't
>>> we get rid of /usr? The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
>>> sense anymore.
>> This is a very short-sighed view.
> 
> Oh, is it?
Yes.

[Note that this had been the "polite version" of what I actually think 
about your proposal.]

>>> We could make /usr a symlink to / for an interims phase
>>> and everything would be good for conservative folks who think the FHS
>>> is the holy bible.
>> Religiousity isn't the point - The point is: There are reasons for why  
>> the FHS rsp. the GNU standards are setup the way they are.
> 
> First of all FHS is not a "GNU standard". 
"The GNU standards" is a standard of its own, predating the FHS.

> Secondly, it is of course very convincing if you just nebulously say
> 'there are rasons' instead of mentioning any.
Number #1 reason: /usr is ment to contains non-essential packages, only, 
and thus is allowed not to be present during certain stages of booting.

>>> And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
>>> /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not.
>>> Much more useful it would be if
>>> / in its entirety could be mounted ro. Debian allows that. It's not
>>> too hard to make that work on fedora as well.
>> You are oversimplifying.
>>
>> Mounting / ro: will never work (/var, /tmp, /etc etc.) , while mounting  
>> /usr ro: should be pretty simply.
> 
> On Debian /etc doesn't need to be rw. And it wouldn't be too difficult
> to allow the same on Fedora.
In theory, yes. However /etc still needs to be mountable rw: (To set up 
the system), while /bin, /sbin/, /lib, /usr ... in theory can even not 
be mountable "rw:" (Consider ROMs, CDROMs, etc.)

Ralf



From che666 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 14:03:15 2009
From: che666 at gmail.com (Rudolf Kastl)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:03:15 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49E83BCD.7050207@hhs.nl>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904170908.21270.jzeleny@redhat.com> <49E83BCD.7050207@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <e99d27470904170703u177cf585o2835164ebb16ce14@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/17 Hans de Goede <j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl>:
> On 04/17/2009 09:08 AM, Jan Zelen? wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>>
>>> The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
>>> sense anymore.
>>
>> I don't think that's true. How about one /usr ro mounted via network to
>> several machines?
>>
>
> This has not worked for the last X Fedora releases, due to us using Network
> Manager to bring up the Network, and NM living in /usr, see my other reply
> in
> this thread.

Well network still works without nm... even in todays rawhide. Alot of
stuff doesent work with only the default setup. ;)

kind regards,
Rudolf Kastl

>
> Regards,
>
> Hans
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



From dwalsh at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 14:08:36 2009
From: dwalsh at redhat.com (Daniel J Walsh)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:08:36 -0400
Subject: Why is mozplugger still installed by default on F11 it conflicts
 with SELInux since it causes oofice to run as nsplugin_t
Message-ID: <49E88D64.3030706@redhat.com>

There is certainly argument about the value of this package and it 
breaks nsplugin/SELinux functionality.

A confined nsplugin is a nice feature for confining plugins downloaded 
from the network.  But if you run openoffice and evince from within 
nsplugin they get confined, causing the apps to not work properly.



From james at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 17 14:10:30 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:10:30 -0400
Subject: Multilib/multiarch debuginfo
In-Reply-To: <20090416220032.D55B3FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
References: <1239887581.23619.5.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<20090416203646.4AC47FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239917677.9867.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416220032.D55B3FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
Message-ID: <1239977430.9658.16.camel@code.and.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 15:00 -0700, Roland McGrath wrote:
> > Debuginfo is not made multilib.  That pathway leads to insanity.
> 
> Sure.  What I was looking for was a way to tell yum to use a different
> $basearch in repo lookup for one command.  That way may also lead to
> insanity, I'm no authority on such things.  Another adequate option would
> be some specialized yum-utils tool that can be told to go look at an
> other-arch repo.  e.g. debuginfo-install --arch=i386 or something.

 A few of the yum-utils commands take a --archlist, repoquery and
yumdownloader both do for instance. This is more for looking at data on
ppc from an i386 box, as i386 is already in the archlist for x86_64.
 And that doesn't change what $basearch will be in the config. files
because doing that is a really bad idea due to the fact that you'll have
changed what /var/cache/yum/blah/ points to without the next run of yum
knowing (it's a bad idea to have the same repoid point to more than one
place).

 So what you probably want is to create a blah-i386 to go with your
normal blah repo. ... which hardcodes i386 as the arch. Leave it
disabled, and then whever you want to use it do:

 yumdownloader --repoid=blah-i386 whatever...

 yum --disablerepo='*' --enablerepo=blah-i386 whatever...

...you can use yum-plugin-aliases to simply the later, if you want.

-- 
James Antill - james at fedoraproject.org
"I'd just like to see a realistic approach to updates via
 packages." -- Les Mikesell



From ssorce at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 14:23:56 2009
From: ssorce at redhat.com (Simo Sorce)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:23:56 -0400
Subject: Why is mozplugger still installed by default on F11 it
 conflicts with SELInux since it causes oofice to run as nsplugin_t
In-Reply-To: <49E88D64.3030706@redhat.com>
References: <49E88D64.3030706@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239978236.3696.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 10:08 -0400, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
> There is certainly argument about the value of this package and it 
> breaks nsplugin/SELinux functionality.
> 
> A confined nsplugin is a nice feature for confining plugins downloaded 
> from the network.  But if you run openoffice and evince from within 
> nsplugin they get confined, causing the apps to not work properly.

Is there a way to make specific transition rules for known apps like
evince or openoffice?
Would it make sens to do so?

Simo.

-- 
Simo Sorce * Red Hat, Inc * New York



From notting at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 14:34:37 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:34:37 -0400
Subject: no rawhide today (for now)
Message-ID: <20090417143437.GB11284@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Some issues with deltarpm generation are causing the rawhide compose to
break. We're currently working them, but until then, rawhide is unlikely
to show up today.

Bill



From notting at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 14:35:38 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:35:38 -0400
Subject: Why is mozplugger still installed by default on F11 it
	conflicts with SELInux since it causes oofice to run as nsplugin_t
In-Reply-To: <49E88D64.3030706@redhat.com>
References: <49E88D64.3030706@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090417143538.GC11284@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Daniel J Walsh (dwalsh at redhat.com) said: 
> There is certainly argument about the value of this package and it  
> breaks nsplugin/SELinux functionality.
>
> A confined nsplugin is a nice feature for confining plugins downloaded  
> from the network.  But if you run openoffice and evince from within  
> nsplugin they get confined, causing the apps to not work properly.

Looks like it's required by the java plugin (as well as some others,
but the java one is the one most likely to be installed by default.)

Bill



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Fri Apr 17 14:44:25 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:44:25 +0800
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E895C9.6000509@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/15/2009 07:12 PM, Ilyes Gouta wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm running Fedora 10 on my old Thinkpad R50e, which has a Pentium M 
> and an intel 855GM graphics card and I'm not happy with the 
> performance of KDE, Kwin, Xserver and al. where sometimes, I can 
> clearly see a given window getting its background cleared and its 
> content redrawn slowly. I remember I didn't have annoying artifacts 
> when I was running Windows, three years ago on the same machine. I 
> don't have composition enabled or any fancy thing in my KDE setup. So 
> basically, I'm asking if you guys know about any profiling tool that 
> would enable me to see where the system is spending its time, 
> especially when rendering the desktop.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> -Ilyes
Ilyes,

I was having terrible problems with F10 on my 4+year-old laptop, and I 
am now running rawhide from a F11 Beta install, and nearly all my 
problems, including disk & display performance problems, have gone 
away.  I hope I am not far from the truth when I say (at least as I've 
been told) Xorg in F10 had some issues, almost all of which are fixed in 
the version that is scheduled for F11.

Try the F11 Beta or Snapshot Live CD on a USB stick or bootable flash 
memory, like I did.  You'll probably notice some great improvements.

Note:  I've /only/ had these problems with F10. F8 & F9 never gave me 
performance problems.



From dwalsh at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 14:46:40 2009
From: dwalsh at redhat.com (Daniel J Walsh)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:46:40 -0400
Subject: Why is mozplugger still installed by default on F11 it conflicts
 with SELInux since it causes oofice to run as nsplugin_t
In-Reply-To: <1239978236.3696.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49E88D64.3030706@redhat.com>
	<1239978236.3696.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E89650.3050902@redhat.com>

On 04/17/2009 10:23 AM, Simo Sorce wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 10:08 -0400, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
>> There is certainly argument about the value of this package and it
>> breaks nsplugin/SELinux functionality.
>>
>> A confined nsplugin is a nice feature for confining plugins downloaded
>> from the network.  But if you run openoffice and evince from within
>> nsplugin they get confined, causing the apps to not work properly.
>
> Is there a way to make specific transition rules for known apps like
> evince or openoffice?
> Would it make sens to do so?
>
> Simo.
>
Yes I can but the rules end up being something like

nsplugin_t -> openoffice_exec_t -> unconfined_t.

So if someone can figure out a way to get openoffice to do something 
evil from the command line, it becomes an fairly easy avenue of attack.

Similarly for evince.




From notting at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 14:55:14 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:55:14 -0400
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <200904170908.21270.jzeleny@redhat.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904170908.21270.jzeleny@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090417145514.GD11284@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Jan Zelen? (jzeleny at redhat.com) said: 
> Hi,
> > The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
> > sense anymore.
> 
> I don't think that's true. How about one /usr ro mounted via network to 
> several machines?

Given that you'd then need to:

- install each client machine separately, and then nuke /usr
- install server separately
- update server with --netsharedpath
- update client with --netsharedpath
- update all clients in sync with any server updates

it seems simpler to me, by far, to just have a shared / partition on the
network. (Which is supported.)

Bill



From ssorce at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 14:56:07 2009
From: ssorce at redhat.com (Simo Sorce)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:56:07 -0400
Subject: Why is mozplugger still installed by default on F11 it
 conflicts with SELInux since it causes oofice to run as nsplugin_t
In-Reply-To: <49E89650.3050902@redhat.com>
References: <49E88D64.3030706@redhat.com>
	<1239978236.3696.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E89650.3050902@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1239980167.3696.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 10:46 -0400, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
> On 04/17/2009 10:23 AM, Simo Sorce wrote:
> > On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 10:08 -0400, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
> >> There is certainly argument about the value of this package and it
> >> breaks nsplugin/SELinux functionality.
> >>
> >> A confined nsplugin is a nice feature for confining plugins downloaded
> >> from the network.  But if you run openoffice and evince from within
> >> nsplugin they get confined, causing the apps to not work properly.
> >
> > Is there a way to make specific transition rules for known apps like
> > evince or openoffice?
> > Would it make sens to do so?
> >
> > Simo.
> >
> Yes I can but the rules end up being something like
> 
> nsplugin_t -> openoffice_exec_t -> unconfined_t.
> 
> So if someone can figure out a way to get openoffice to do something 
> evil from the command line, it becomes an fairly easy avenue of attack.
> 
> Similarly for evince.

Should we write a wrapper then that checks the command line and restrict
what can be done with it ?
Maybe also lobby applications developers to add a --insecure parameter
to their apps that we can pass down so that they can take extra
precautions when possible (maybe disable macros by default when a file
is labeled as "downloaded", or disable any write operation except "save
a copy" and stuff like that) ?

Or maybe ask application writers to support reading the SELinux label of
the files they are opening and mark files downloaded from firefox as
"download_t" or something similar so that they know it is a potential
threat.


Simo.

-- 
Simo Sorce * Red Hat, Inc * New York



From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Fri Apr 17 15:06:03 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?iso-8859-1?q?Skytt=E4?=)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:06:03 +0300
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <m3iql34nfg.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<m3iql34nfg.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>
Message-ID: <200904171806.06766.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Friday 17 April 2009, Benny Amorsen wrote:

> Instead Fedora (finally)
> went with what others do: add /sbin to the default PATH.

What "others"?  None of the non-Fedora systems I have access to do that.  ISTR 
hearing that Ubuntu does, but the 8.04.2 box I have access to doesn't.  I have 
no idea whether these are the distro defaults though.



From wtogami at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 15:09:51 2009
From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:09:51 -0400
Subject: Why is mozplugger still installed by default on F11 it conflicts
 with SELInux since it causes oofice to run as nsplugin_t
In-Reply-To: <49E88D64.3030706@redhat.com>
References: <49E88D64.3030706@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E89BBF.2070209@redhat.com>

On 04/17/2009 10:08 AM, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
> There is certainly argument about the value of this package and it
> breaks nsplugin/SELinux functionality.
>
> A confined nsplugin is a nice feature for confining plugins downloaded
> from the network. But if you run openoffice and evince from within
> nsplugin they get confined, causing the apps to not work properly.
>

Removing mozplugger has been something I always do.  It seems to cause 
more problems than it solves. =(

Warren



From drago01 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 15:21:14 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:21:14 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904170821h253e31f1g6bddc696b96cce8d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Lennart Poettering
<mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
> On Fri, 17.04.09 06:48, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203 at freenet.de) wrote:
>
>>
>> Lennart Poettering wrote:

> /tmp and /var should of course be mounted writable.

/tmp and /var/tmp should be tmpfs by default but that's a different topic.

Regarding to getting rid of /usr .. what are the problems that this is
going to solve?



From notting at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 15:37:35 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:37:35 -0400
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49E856FD.90004@hhs.nl>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E83B87.1080703@hhs.nl> <20090417094727.GA852@imperial.ac.uk>
	<49E856FD.90004@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <20090417153735.GE11284@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Hans de Goede (j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl) said: 
> Think for example something weird like /usr on fuse, do we want to support
> that? Note that given the infinite amount of possibilities it is probably
> the best to only describe what we do support.

IMO, no. (Nor root on fuse, which could I'm sure conceivably be hacked in.)

Bill



From chris.stone at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 15:43:28 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:43:28 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>

 2009/4/16 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
>> You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
>> previews behavior was better
>>
> On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
> that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
> by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.

So what are they doing instead? Absolutely nothing?  How ridiculous.
Let's just make a bunch of extremely bad decisions and keep bad
defaults because actually trying to convince someone that the defaults
or decisions people make are bad is pointless.

I think we should remove the "Friends" section from the Fedora
Foundations page. Because community input and discussion is a waste of
time according to Jesse Keating.



From jonstanley at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 15:48:38 2009
From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:48:38 -0400
Subject: Agenda for today's FESCo meeting
Message-ID: <da159fda0904170848x4dc833c8o6e0a1e11280f86f0@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for the late notice, $DAYJOB has overrun me for the past week
(and if another FESCo member wants to take over as chair for this
week, that would be most appreciated).  I only had a few things for
this week, though, so it should be a quickie.

- Review threat assessment (and decided if it should be made public)
136	FPC report - 2009-04-14
64	liblvm - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/liblvm
133	Dracut - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Dracut

Again, sorry for the late notice



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 15:51:47 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:51:47 -0700
Subject: opensync downgrade to 0.22
In-Reply-To: <200904171445.59235.opensource@till.name>
References: <20090325143949.740d7647__23238.4034352892$1238186344$gmane$org@lowlatency.de>
	<200904151855.16611.opensource@till.name>
	<1239820394.4354.97.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904171445.59235.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <1239983507.14173.23.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:45 +0200, Till Maas wrote:

> > If you're talking about 0.3, forget it. For 0.22, there's a commented
> 
> I was talking abount 0.3, which is also the branch that is currently available 
> in F10 btw.

Yes...given the liberal upgrade policy of Fedora, we should probably
downgrade it there too, I'm just kinda used to not making major changes
to released distros (even to something as fundamentally broken as
opensync) so I didn't suggest that to Andreas, just focused on Rawhide.
I guess he may go ahead and do that once we're happy with the stuff in
Rawhide.

>  It's strange, that even nobody knows how it should be configured, 
> because the syncml-ds-tool works here without any problems to get my contacts 
> from my phone to my Fedora box, but it is the other way round, that I really 
> need. I guess I will try it with 0.22 then some day or do it somehow with 
> python :-).

As I keep saying, you basically can't sync any real data to or from a
real device (or even a non-device plugin like Evo or KDEPIM) with
opensync 0.3 in its current state. It's not a question of "it's really
difficult to configure and entirely undocumented" (which is, also,
pretty much true), it's just a case of it actually flat out does not
work. The code is not yet capable of doing it.

*In addition* to this, with the current state of development, the
configuration you have to do to get to the state where things will
in-theory work but in-practice won't is also quite difficult - AIUI from
the mailing list discussion (I haven't bothered to test this personally
because there's just no point, it still wouldn't actually work) there's
a bit of configuration that none of the actual opensync tools handle
yet, so you'd have to go in and poke the partnership configuration files
manually. And it still wouldn't work. (Juha will correct me on that if
I'm wrong, I'm sure - Juha, I'm talking about the capabilities stuff).

But yeah, you are not ever going to be able to sync any real data with
the packages in Fedora 10 currently. It just won't work. Backport the
packages from Rawhide - libsyncml, libwbxml, and all of opensync, or
build 0.22 from source yourself, and you may be in with a fighting
chance. That's basically the status.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From ajax at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 15:52:26 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:52:26 -0400
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904161853r201d192oa7c6248d7ddf121@mail.gmail.com>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239822770.4354.103.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239824652.8860.3049.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<234fa2210904160152me0fb4ddwfbf0976e46889fb6@mail.gmail.com>
	<870180fe0904161853r201d192oa7c6248d7ddf121@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239983546.28649.33.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 19:53 -0600, Jerry James wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Ilyes Gouta <ilyes.gouta at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Alright, thank you guys for the information. I'm gonna try sysprof out, it
> > looks like it's THE tool I'm looking for!
> 
> Has anyone compared sysprof with oprofile?  I'm going to need a system
> profiler Real Soon Now, and I'm wondering how they compare to each
> other.

They're fairly different approaches to the problem.  oprofile is an
expert tool, it exposes basically every performance counter on the
system with no particularly strong emphasis on UI.  If you happen to
know that cache misses or TLD flushes or whatever are what's killing
you, then it'll show you exactly where and why.  If you just want to
know where your CPU time is going, oprofile will have you missing the
forest for the bark on the trees.

sysprof, on the other hand, just wants to show you where you're spending
CPU time.  You click start, do some stuff that you want to profile, and
then click profile, and it gives you a tree view of stack traces showing
where it sampled you as spending time.  Does only the one thing, but
does it really well.

I find that I reach for sysprof first, and will eventually resort to
oprofile if the problem is complex and rare enough to need it.

- ajax


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From wtogami at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 15:52:59 2009
From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:52:59 -0400
Subject: useradd creating 0662 homedir permission?
In-Reply-To: <49E83CBB.6030809@redhat.com>
References: <49E83CBB.6030809@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E8A5DB.1030300@redhat.com>

On 04/17/2009 04:24 AM, Warren Togami wrote:
> [root at newcaprica home]# useradd test
> [root at newcaprica home]# ls -al
> total 20
> drwxr-xr-x. 5 root root 4096 2009-04-17 04:17 .
> drwxr-xr-x. 24 root root 4096 2009-04-16 22:38 ..
> drw-rw--w-. 4 test test 4096 2009-04-17 04:17 test
>
> /home/test is 0766. That can't possibly be correct?
>
> Attempting to login to this user is pretty broken.
>

I was up way too late... it is indeed 0662 which seems totally broken. 
umask looks right.

[root at newcaprica home]# umask
0022
[root at newcaprica home]# useradd test
[root at newcaprica home]# ls -ld test
drw-rw--w-. 4 test test 4096 2009-04-17 11:42 test

Turns out this is a broken shadow-utils that was reverted from rawhide.

shadow-utils-4.1.3-2.fc11.x86_64

Warren Togami
wtogami at redhat.com



From ilyes.gouta at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 15:55:54 2009
From: ilyes.gouta at gmail.com (Ilyes Gouta)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:55:54 +0100
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <49E895C9.6000509@hidayahonline.org>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49E895C9.6000509@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <234fa2210904170855kf9bbb23s95f29cd0ca1ae965@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Basil,

Thanks for your advice. Actually, my goal is to figure out exactly why the
graphics performance is so poor :)
I definitely hope F11 will do better on my hardware.

Regards,
Ilyes Gouta.

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Basil Mohamed Gohar <
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org> wrote:

> On 04/15/2009 07:12 PM, Ilyes Gouta wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm running Fedora 10 on my old Thinkpad R50e, which has a Pentium M and
>> an intel 855GM graphics card and I'm not happy with the performance of KDE,
>> Kwin, Xserver and al. where sometimes, I can clearly see a given window
>> getting its background cleared and its content redrawn slowly. I remember I
>> didn't have annoying artifacts when I was running Windows, three years ago
>> on the same machine. I don't have composition enabled or any fancy thing in
>> my KDE setup. So basically, I'm asking if you guys know about any profiling
>> tool that would enable me to see where the system is spending its time,
>> especially when rendering the desktop.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> -Ilyes
>>
> Ilyes,
>
> I was having terrible problems with F10 on my 4+year-old laptop, and I am
> now running rawhide from a F11 Beta install, and nearly all my problems,
> including disk & display performance problems, have gone away.  I hope I am
> not far from the truth when I say (at least as I've been told) Xorg in F10
> had some issues, almost all of which are fixed in the version that is
> scheduled for F11.
>
> Try the F11 Beta or Snapshot Live CD on a USB stick or bootable flash
> memory, like I did.  You'll probably notice some great improvements.
>
> Note:  I've /only/ had these problems with F10. F8 & F9 never gave me
> performance problems.
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From ajax at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 15:59:38 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:59:38 -0400
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <234fa2210904170126j4886bec7v4002c07813c7879c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239822770.4354.103.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1239824652.8860.3049.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<234fa2210904160152me0fb4ddwfbf0976e46889fb6@mail.gmail.com>
	<870180fe0904161853r201d192oa7c6248d7ddf121@mail.gmail.com>
	<234fa2210904170126j4886bec7v4002c07813c7879c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239983978.28649.47.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 09:26 +0100, Ilyes Gouta wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Do I have to install the -debuginfo equivalent of the packages I
> intend to profile?

You don't _have_ to, but you really want to.  sysprof will try valiantly
to find symbol names in whatever binary the stack trace happens to be
in, but if you don't have debuginfo installed, most symbol names will be
unavailable.  So you'll see something like "Xorg is spending all of its
time in main()", which might be true but isn't particularly informative.

> Were the -release packages already compiled with -O2 -g flags so that
> we already have the necessary debugging information embedded into the
> code?

The world is built with -g, but the debugging information itself is
split off at rpm build time into the -debuginfo subpackage.

> What about X? On the sysprof website, it's mentioned that it has to be
> recompiled from source and to avoid the generation of static modules..
> Is it the case for the X server shipped with Fedora?

That warning hasn't been true since Xorg 7.0, which was FC5.

There is one caveat in profiling X, which is that since the X server
runs as root, you'll need to run sysprof as root in order to be able to
trace it.  'sudo sysprof &' from the command line should work.

- ajax
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From opensource at till.name  Fri Apr 17 15:59:03 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:59:03 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417153735.GE11284@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de> <49E856FD.90004@hhs.nl>
	<20090417153735.GE11284@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200904171759.13576.opensource@till.name>

On Fr April 17 2009, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Hans de Goede (j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl) said:
> > Think for example something weird like /usr on fuse, do we want to
> > support that? Note that given the infinite amount of possibilities it is
> > probably the best to only describe what we do support.
>
> IMO, no. (Nor root on fuse, which could I'm sure conceivably be hacked in.)

Allowing root on fuse might be useful for live images, that then maybe could 
use funionfs instead of the lvm snapshot.

Regards,
Till
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 16:00:36 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:00:36 -0700
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <49E895C9.6000509@hidayahonline.org>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E895C9.6000509@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1239984036.14173.25.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 22:44 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:

> Ilyes,
> 
> I was having terrible problems with F10 on my 4+year-old laptop, and I 
> am now running rawhide from a F11 Beta install, and nearly all my 
> problems, including disk & display performance problems, have gone 
> away.  I hope I am not far from the truth when I say (at least as I've 
> been told) Xorg in F10 had some issues, almost all of which are fixed in 
> the version that is scheduled for F11.

I'd say you're over-simplifying. :) There were large changes in both the
X server itself and the various hardware drivers in F10, and there are
equally large (or possibly even larger) changes for F11 too. Some things
that were broken in F10 are fixed in F11. Some things that were broken
in F10 are currently still broken in F11. And a few things are broken in
F11 that weren't broken in F10. Obviously we're trying to make sure the
first group of things is as large as possible and the other two as
small, but please don't over-promise, it frequently leads to
disappointment :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From denis at poolshark.org  Fri Apr 17 16:21:01 2009
From: denis at poolshark.org (Denis Leroy)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:21:01 +0200
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <49E772FC.2030902@cora.nwra.com>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org> <49E772FC.2030902@cora.nwra.com>
Message-ID: <49E8AC6D.7090103@poolshark.org>

Orion Poplawski wrote:
> Denis Leroy wrote:
>> I'm seeing a lot of regressions with the 2.6.29 update to F-10 here. 
>> GDM doesn't always log me in (it hangs after the password is entered, 
>> 'top' doesn't show any stuck process), and when it did I had Xorg eat 
>> 100% CPU with little useful info in the log files.
>>
>> What is the reasoning for pushing a 2.6.29 kernel to Fedora 10 (a 
>> stable release about half-way its lifetime) ? Was there something 
>> fundamentally wrong with the 2.6.27.x kernel ? Why introduce some much 
>> instability ?
> 
> Works well here and fixes a number of intel graphics driver issues for me.

Well just my luck, it seems I'm the only one suffering :-( Looks like a 
memory corruption either in gdm-session-worker or in the pam library.

Filed:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496293



From arequipeno at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 16:39:22 2009
From: arequipeno at gmail.com (Ian Pilcher)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:39:22 -0500
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
Message-ID: <gsabbq$k8n$1@ger.gmane.org>

Denis Leroy wrote:
> What is the reasoning for pushing a 2.6.29 kernel to Fedora 10 (a stable
> release about half-way its lifetime) ? Was there something fundamentally
> wrong with the 2.6.27.x kernel ? Why introduce some much instability ?

I don't see in 2.6.29 in Fedora 10 updates.

-- 
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher                                         arequipeno at gmail.com
========================================================================



From nathanael at gnat.ca  Fri Apr 17 16:43:11 2009
From: nathanael at gnat.ca (Nathanael D. Noblet)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:43:11 -0600
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <gsabbq$k8n$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org> <gsabbq$k8n$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49E8B19F.8040602@gnat.ca>

Ian Pilcher wrote:
> Denis Leroy wrote:
>> What is the reasoning for pushing a 2.6.29 kernel to Fedora 10 (a stable
>> release about half-way its lifetime) ? Was there something fundamentally
>> wrong with the 2.6.27.x kernel ? Why introduce some much instability ?
> 
> I don't see in 2.6.29 in Fedora 10 updates.
> 

Its not, I just found it in updates-testing.

-- 
Nathanael d. Noblet
T: 403.875.4613



From mjg at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 16:52:06 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:52:06 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 08:43:28AM -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:
>  2009/4/16 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>:
> > On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> >> You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
> >> previews behavior was better
> >>
> > On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
> > that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
> > by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.
> 
> So what are they doing instead? Absolutely nothing?  How ridiculous.
> Let's just make a bunch of extremely bad decisions and keep bad
> defaults because actually trying to convince someone that the defaults
> or decisions people make are bad is pointless.

The people to convince are the maintainers of the code in question, and 
in the general case sprawling threads on distribution mailing lists 
aren't a good way to do that. Some worthwhile ideas came out of this 
discussion and were implemented - however, at this point it's just 
repeating the same arguments over and over again, and argument ad 
nauseum is not the most convincing approach.

One thing that should be borne in mind is that the Fedora X maintainers 
are a subset of the upstream X maintainers. Convincing Fedora to change 
the default is likely to be an equivalent task to convincing upstream to 
change the default. The only real way that any divergence could develop 
would be for the Fedora maintainers to be overruled.

My understanding is that if FESCO is unwilling to do this then the issue 
could (in principle) be raised to the board. If that doesn't lead 
anywhere then your issue becomes one with the overall governance of the 
project, and that's best discussed somewhere other than on a technical 
development mailing list.

In summary: The technical issues raised are well understood by the 
maintainers. Unless there's any further insight into those issues then 
this is not the mailing list to continue the discussions. It's simply no 
longer a development issue.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From drago01 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 16:55:09 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:55:09 +0200
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904170955n6e137e71x5a1c31d1412833a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> wrote:
> I'm seeing a lot of regressions with the 2.6.29 update to F-10 here. GDM
> doesn't always log me in (it hangs after the password is entered, 'top'
> doesn't show any stuck process), and when it did I had Xorg eat 100% CPU
> with little useful info in the log files.
>
> What is the reasoning for pushing a 2.6.29 kernel to Fedora 10 (a stable
> release about half-way its lifetime) ? Was there something fundamentally
> wrong with the 2.6.27.x kernel ? Why introduce some much instability ?
>
> I can understand there are people maybe waiting for new hardware support
> brought by this kernel, but woudn't they be better off with F-11 anyways?

It works fine here, resume from suspend is much faster and my webcam
is now supported.



From behdad at behdad.org  Fri Apr 17 16:55:29 2009
From: behdad at behdad.org (Behdad Esfahbod)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:55:29 -0400
Subject: Fwd: LCD patches
In-Reply-To: <cba415ca0904170035x10992a15q53195f9b731d6d1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cba415ca0904170030v1a62f6e4p76f9b7e6d4dbfa70@mail.gmail.com>
	<cba415ca0904170035x10992a15q53195f9b731d6d1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E8B481.6070208@behdad.org>

On 04/17/2009 03:35 AM, David Hl??ik wrote:
> Dear developers,
>
> please have a look if possible  at those 2 bugs in Bugzilla I have just
> created
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496191
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496192
>
> Those are about the patches extracted from Ubuntu , which are about to
> bring improved font rendering for our Fedora, the same way as Ubuntu does.

There are legal reasons that Fedora has not distributed those patches before.
Those reasons still apply.


> Additionally, I would love to if I could be a co-maintainer of cairo and
> libXft.

What do you want to change in cairo?  As a package and upstream maintainer, I 
want to keep the package zero-patch as it is now.

behdad


> Thanks in advance,
>
> David Hlacik



From katzj at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 17:00:27 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:00:27 -0400
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <200904171759.13576.opensource@till.name>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de> <49E856FD.90004@hhs.nl>
	<20090417153735.GE11284@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<200904171759.13576.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <20090417170027.GB71640@redhat.com>

On Friday, April 17 2009, Till Maas said:
> On Fr April 17 2009, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> > Hans de Goede (j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl) said:
> > > Think for example something weird like /usr on fuse, do we want to
> > > support that? Note that given the infinite amount of possibilities it is
> > > probably the best to only describe what we do support.
> >
> > IMO, no. (Nor root on fuse, which could I'm sure conceivably be hacked in.)
> 
> Allowing root on fuse might be useful for live images, that then maybe could 
> use funionfs instead of the lvm snapshot.

1) The live images are a pretty special beast and thus wouldn't be
influenced by any decision of fuse vs no fuse for /usr
2) fuse based unionfs suffers from a lot of the same problems as
non-fuse based.  Luckily, Val's work on union mounts seems to be
progressing pretty well although I'm not 100% sure what the time frame
on that is right now

Jeremy



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Fri Apr 17 17:02:20 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:02:20 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net>
	<1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de>

Christopher Stone wrote:
>  2009/4/16 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>:
>> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
>>> You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
>>> previews behavior was better
>>>
>> On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
>> that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
>> by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.
> 
> So what are they doing instead?
Abusing the Fedora as Guinea pigs, as they've done many times before.




From poelstra at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 17:11:14 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:11:14 -0700
Subject: Final Reminder: F11 Features Not at 100%
In-Reply-To: <49E806A2.1050100@redhat.com>
References: <49E806A2.1050100@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E8B832.8000707@redhat.com>

Thanks everyone!  We're only waiting for GCC now :)

John

John Poelstra said the following on 04/16/2009 09:33 PM Pacific Time:
> Thanks for all your hard work to make these features a reality.  We just 
> need a little more information and one final update :)
> 
> Feature freeze has past and the following feature pages still need 
> updates.  Some have not been updated for several months.  All need to be 
> at 100% completion and their content set to reflect that.
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Ext4DefaultFs
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/gcc4.4
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/IntelKMS
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewTextUI
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NouveauModesetting
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MultiplePAMStacksInGDM
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PowerManagement
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/EFI
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/XserverOnePointSix
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Python_2.6
> 
> I'm forwarding these to FESCo for discussion at their meeting tomorrow. 
>  Please update your page before 12 PM EDT so that they do not need to 
> review it.
> 
> Thank you,
> John
> 
> p.s. All feature owners have been bcc'd on this message as well as the 
> previous reminder.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Fedora-devel-announce mailing list
> Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce
>  From - Fri



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr 17 17:21:33 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:21:33 +0200
Subject: Fwd: LCD patches
References: <cba415ca0904170030v1a62f6e4p76f9b7e6d4dbfa70@mail.gmail.com>
	<cba415ca0904170035x10992a15q53195f9b731d6d1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E8B481.6070208@behdad.org>
Message-ID: <gsadqt$s5c$1@ger.gmane.org>

Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> There are legal reasons that Fedora has not distributed those patches
> before. Those reasons still apply.

Those patches do not contain any subpixel antialiasing code, they just call
the freetype LCD filter when it's available. There is no actual subpixel
antialiasing being done if it's disabled in freetype. In fact, those
patches even REMOVE hardcoded subpixel filters, in favor of using the
freetype ones.

        Kevin Kofler



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 17:25:27 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:25:27 -0700
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <49E8AC6D.7090103@poolshark.org>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
	<49E772FC.2030902@cora.nwra.com>  <49E8AC6D.7090103@poolshark.org>
Message-ID: <1239989127.14173.29.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 18:21 +0200, Denis Leroy wrote:

> Well just my luck, it seems I'm the only one suffering :-( Looks like a 
> memory corruption either in gdm-session-worker or in the pam library.

When I was running 2.6.29 builds from koji on my F10 laptop it stopped
the wireless working right, and John Linville couldn't figure out what
was wrong from the info I was able to provide. I hope this turns out to
work in the 2.6.29 that's been sent as an update :\ Haven't tried it
yet.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 17 17:25:54 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:25:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090417 changes
Message-ID: <20090417172554.8D6561F81F6@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Fri Apr 17 07:15:03 UTC 2009

New package leonidas-kde-theme
        Leonidas KDE Theme
Updated Packages:

NetworkManager-0.7.1-3.git20090414.fc11
---------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com> - 1:0.7.1-3.git20090414
- ifcfg-rh: fix problems noticing changes via inotify (rh #495884)


anaconda-11.5.0.45-2
--------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Chris Lumens <clumens at redhat.com> - 11.5.0.45-1
- Touch /.autorelabel when running under rescue mode (#491747). (clumens)
- Add support for fingerprint-based logins (#481273). (clumens)
- Add a "File Bug" button to the catch-all partitioning exception handler.
  (clumens)
- Remove the early catch-all exception handler (#495933). (clumens)
- Implement the save to USB using devicetree devices. (jgranado)
- Use size instead of currentSize when comparing lv sizes (hdegoede)
- Make sure all pv's of an lv's vg are setup before resizing an lv (hdegoede)
- Do not try to teardown a non existing format (hdegoede)
- Center the bootloader configuration dialog (#495802). (clumens)
- Destroy (potential) stale metadata when creating a new partition (hdegoede)
- use partition req_base_size instead of size in partitionCompare()
  (hdegoede)
- Fix changing size of newly created partitions (hdegoede)
- Don't traceback on invalid filesystem detection (#495156) (dcantrell)
- Check to see if formatcb is None. (jgranado)
- Use the PV name when logging error messages. (jgranado)
- Don't set up the device to obtain minSize anymore. (dlehman)
- Improve estimate of md arrays' size. (dlehman)
- Determine minimum size for filesystems once, from constructor. (dlehman)
- Fix estimate of LUKS header size for newly encrypted devices. (#493575)
  (dlehman)
- Fix two syntax problems with generated mdadm.conf entries. (#495552)
  (dlehman)
- Default to AES-XTS cipher mode with 512 bit key for new LUKS devices.
  (dlehman)
- When going back from a failed shrink, reset the device action set.
  (clumens)
- If we can't communicate while logging in to bugzilla, error (#492470).
  (clumens)
- Make save to usb work. (jgranado)
- We don't always have a formatcb either (#495665). (clumens)
- The entry is named lvsizeentry now. (jgranado)

* Thu Apr 16 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 11.5.0.45-2
- Bump release so that I can tag/build for F11


anjuta-2.26.1.0-1.fc11
----------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> - 1:2.26.1.0-1
- Version bump to 2.26.1.0.
  * New animation to identify running builds.
  * File manager plugin:
    + Show tooltips in the Files view only when full name does not fit. (GNOME
      Bugzilla #564002)
  * http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/anjuta/2.26/anjuta-2.26.1.0.news
  * http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/anjuta/2.26/anjuta-2.26.1.0.changes


bluez-4.36-1.fc11
-----------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 4.36-1
- Update to 4.36


cdrdao-1.2.3-0.rc2.2
--------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 1.2.3-0.rc2.2
- Make sure version is printed with usage, to fix k3b


control-center-2.26.0-5.fc11
----------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-5
- Disable the fingerprint enrollment if gdm-plugin-fingerprint
  isn't installed


gdb-6.8.50.20090302-21.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Jan Kratochvil <jan.kratochvil at redhat.com> - 6.8.50.20090302-20
- Fix crash in the charset support.

* Thu Apr 16 2009 Jan Kratochvil <jan.kratochvil at redhat.com> - 6.8.50.20090302-21
- Bump revision due to CVS tags mistake.


glibc-2.9.90-19
---------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-18
- update from trunk
  - fix fallocate

* Thu Apr 16 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-19
- update from trunk
  - fix dlopen from statically linked binaries (#495830)

* Wed Apr 15 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-17
- update from trunk
  - if threads have very small stack sizes, use much smaller buffer
    in __get_nprocs when called from within malloc (#494631)


glom-1.10.0-3.fc11
------------------
* Sat Apr 04 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 1.10.0-3
- Requires libgda-sqlite


gnome-applet-timer-2.1.2-2.fc11
-------------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 2.1.2-2
- Require gstreamer-python


gnome-disk-utility-0.3-0.5.20090415git.fc11
-------------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 0.3-0.5.20090415git.fc11
- New snapshot


gnome-media-2.26.0-2.fc11
-------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2
- Fix alignment of sliders


gnote-0.1.2-2.fc11
------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Rahul Sundaram <sundaram at fedoraproject.org> - 0.1.2-2
- Add BR on gnome-doc-utils

* Wed Apr 15 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 0.1.2-1
- Update to 0.1.2 to fix many upstream bugs
  http://www.figuiere.net/hub/blog/?2009/04/15/660-gnote-012


kde-settings-4.2-6.20090416svn.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2-6.20090416
- update for leonidas-kde-theme


kdelibs3-3.5.10-10.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 3.5.10-10
- move designer plugins to runtime (#487622)
- make -apidocs noarch


kdeutils-4.2.2-4.fc11
---------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-4
- revert -printer-applet dep changes (and drop for f11+)

* Wed Apr 15 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-3
- drop the BR on PyKDE4, system-config-printer-libs
  it's just needed for runtime
- fix kdeutils-printer-applet dependency
- apply upstream patch to fix several issues in ark


kernel-2.6.29.1-85.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com>
- drm-modesetting-radeon: fix rs690 video (#492685) + add bandwidth calcs

* Wed Apr 15 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- Add serial driver option to skip testing for the TXEN bug. (#495762)

* Wed Apr 15 2009 Marcelo Tosatti <mtosatti at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-85
- Skip PIT-through-IOAPIC routing check on KVM guests.

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- acer-wmi: use upstream code to blacklist an additional model
- Trivial fix to drm-modesetting-radeon to fix failure to apply

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- Fix duplicated flag value in pagemap.h (-stable patch)

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- Timer fixes headed for -stable

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- Fix warnings/errors in USB cdc-acm modem driver (#495446)

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- Add missing patch for broken RLIMIT_CPU

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Jarod Wilson <jarod at redhat.com>
- Make squashfs behave on systems where pagesize > blocksize (Doug Chapman)

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Marcelo Tosatti <mtosatti at redhat.com>
- kvm fixes for bz#491625


koffice-1.6.3-21.20090306svn.fc11
---------------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 2:1.6.3-21.20090306svn
- -krita: revert/readd dropped Requires: -filters


libdrm-2.4.6-6.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 2.4.6-6
- nouveau: post writes to pushbuf before incrementing PUT

* Thu Apr 16 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 2.4.6-5
- libdrm-radeon: fix wait idle


libvirt-0.6.2-2.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Mark McLoughlin <markmc at redhat.com> - 0.6.2-2.fc11
- Fix qemu drive format specification (#496092)


mash-0.5.1-1.fc11
-----------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> 0.5.1-1
- delta fixes
- handle qt/kde plugins better (#495947)


mkinitrd-6.0.82-1.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Jeremy Katz <katzj at redhat.com> - 6.0.82-1
- Don't show live snapshot dev with devkit-disks (#495170)
- grubby: Don't crash showing "other" sections (hans, #491622)


nautilus-2.26.2-2.fc11
----------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Alexander Larsson <alexl at redhat.com> - 2.26.2-2
- Fix excessive whitespace on the right in icon view when zooming
- Fixes Gnome bug #579086


php-5.2.9-2.fc11
----------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Joe Orton <jorton at redhat.com> 5.2.9-2
- revert to r3 of tzdata patch


qt3-3.3.8b-25.fc11
------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 3.3.8b-25
- move designer plugins to runtime (#487622)

* Fri Apr 10 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 3.3.8b-24
- unneeded executable permissions for profile.d scripts


rpm-4.7.0-1.fc11
----------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Panu Matilainen <pmatilai at redhat.com> - 4.7.0-1
- update to 4.7.0 final (http://rpm.org/wiki/Releases/4.7.0)
- fixes #494049, #495429
- dont permit test-suite failure anymore


subversion-1.6.1-4.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Joe Orton <jorton at redhat.com> 1.6.1-4
- really disable PIE


syslinux-3.75-1.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Jeremy Katz <katzj at redhat.com> - 3.75-1
- update to 3.75


tomboy-0.14.1-2.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.14.1-2
- Reenable ppc


xorg-x11-drv-nouveau-0.0.12-29.20090417gitfa2f111.fc11
------------------------------------------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 0.0.12-29.20090417gitfa2f111
- avoid post-beta hangs experienced by many people (rh#495764, rh#493222).
  - the bug here was relatively harmless, but exposed a more serious issue
    which has been fixed in libdrm-2.4.6-6.fc11
- kms: speed up transitions, they could take a couple of seconds previously
- framebuffer resize support (rh#495838, rh#487356, lots of dups)

* Wed Apr 15 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 0.0.12-27.20090413git7100c06
- fix rh#495843


Summary:
Added Packages: 1
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 30






Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice





From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 17:26:57 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:26:57 -0700
Subject: Fwd: LCD patches
In-Reply-To: <gsadqt$s5c$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <cba415ca0904170030v1a62f6e4p76f9b7e6d4dbfa70@mail.gmail.com>
	<cba415ca0904170035x10992a15q53195f9b731d6d1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E8B481.6070208@behdad.org>  <gsadqt$s5c$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1239989217.14173.30.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 19:21 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> > There are legal reasons that Fedora has not distributed those patches
> > before. Those reasons still apply.
> 
> Those patches do not contain any subpixel antialiasing code, they just call
> the freetype LCD filter when it's available. There is no actual subpixel
> antialiasing being done if it's disabled in freetype. In fact, those
> patches even REMOVE hardcoded subpixel filters, in favor of using the
> freetype ones.

In that case, as someone said in the bug, they should probably just go
directly upstream. It does seem like a sensible way to do things,
though.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From aph at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 17:41:01 2009
From: aph at redhat.com (Andrew Haley)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:41:01 +0100
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49E8BF2D.4040103@redhat.com>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 17.04.09 06:48, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203 at freenet.de) wrote:
> 
>> Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>> Heya,
>>>
>>> there's one topic that keeps popping up in various discussions: can't
>>> we get rid of /usr? The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
>>> sense anymore.
>> This is a very short-sighed view.
> 
> Oh, is it?
> 
>>> We could make /usr a symlink to / for an interims phase
>>> and everything would be good for conservative folks who think the FHS
>>> is the holy bible.
>> Religiousity isn't the point - The point is: There are reasons for why  
>> the FHS rsp. the GNU standards are setup the way they are.
> 
> First of all FHS is not a "GNU standard". 
> 
> Secondly, it is of course very convincing if you just nebulously say
> 'there are rasons' instead of mentioning any.

Well, sometimes the fact that something *is* standard is far more important
than what the standard is.  And /usr has been around for a very long time,
and lots of software (an people, for that matter) know that it's there.
Much of the GNU configured software by default installs in /usr/local.
There has to be a very high bar for changing common practice.

Andrew.



From nathanael at gnat.ca  Fri Apr 17 17:48:33 2009
From: nathanael at gnat.ca (Nathanael D. Noblet)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:48:33 -0600
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49E8BF2D.4040103@redhat.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E8BF2D.4040103@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E8C0F1.3040608@gnat.ca>

Andrew Haley wrote:

> Well, sometimes the fact that something *is* standard is far more important
> than what the standard is.  And /usr has been around for a very long time,
> and lots of software (an people, for that matter) know that it's there.
> Much of the GNU configured software by default installs in /usr/local.
> There has to be a very high bar for changing common practice.

Yeah, I agree. I mean I haven't really seen any *solid* reason for 
removing /usr. What does it improve? What situation does it fix? It 
doesn't save a massive amount of space, it doesn't increase performance, 
it doesn't resolve any long standing bug I can see. A change like that 
for so little gain will find it hard to gain traction I think.

-- 
Nathanael d. Noblet
T: 403.875.4613



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Fri Apr 17 17:48:56 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:48:56 +0800
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <1239984036.14173.25.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com>	<49E895C9.6000509@hidayahonline.org>
	<1239984036.14173.25.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49E8C108.8030404@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/18/2009 12:00 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 22:44 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>
>    
>> Ilyes,
>>
>> I was having terrible problems with F10 on my 4+year-old laptop, and I
>> am now running rawhide from a F11 Beta install, and nearly all my
>> problems, including disk&  display performance problems, have gone
>> away.  I hope I am not far from the truth when I say (at least as I've
>> been told) Xorg in F10 had some issues, almost all of which are fixed in
>> the version that is scheduled for F11.
>>      
>
> I'd say you're over-simplifying. :) There were large changes in both the
> X server itself and the various hardware drivers in F10, and there are
> equally large (or possibly even larger) changes for F11 too. Some things
> that were broken in F10 are fixed in F11. Some things that were broken
> in F10 are currently still broken in F11. And a few things are broken in
> F11 that weren't broken in F10. Obviously we're trying to make sure the
> first group of things is as large as possible and the other two as
> small, but please don't over-promise, it frequently leads to
> disappointment :)
>    
Good points, all of them.  That's why I tried to keep the experience as 
personal as possible (e.g., "I was having...", "...all my 
problems...").  My mistake, obviously, was in stating a truth about Xorg 
server based on my limited set of experiences with it.  Duly noted.  
Good job to all the devs, Xorg & otherwise, on F11 progress!



From drago01 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 17:50:17 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:50:17 +0200
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <1239989127.14173.29.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org> <49E772FC.2030902@cora.nwra.com>
	<49E8AC6D.7090103@poolshark.org>
	<1239989127.14173.29.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904171050o3740b852t72398af22096d566@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:25 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 18:21 +0200, Denis Leroy wrote:
>
>> Well just my luck, it seems I'm the only one suffering :-( Looks like a
>> memory corruption either in gdm-session-worker or in the pam library.
>
> When I was running 2.6.29 builds from koji on my F10 laptop it stopped
> the wireless working right, and John Linville couldn't figure out what
> was wrong from the info I was able to provide. I hope this turns out to
> work in the 2.6.29 that's been sent as an update :\ Haven't tried it
> yet.

Afaik the patch has been reverted (the one which broke wireless).



From rwheeler at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 17:51:39 2009
From: rwheeler at redhat.com (Ric Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:51:39 -0400
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49E8BF2D.4040103@redhat.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E8BF2D.4040103@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49E8C1AB.7090602@redhat.com>

Andrew Haley wrote:
> Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> On Fri, 17.04.09 06:48, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203 at freenet.de) wrote:
>>
>>> Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>>> Heya,
>>>>
>>>> there's one topic that keeps popping up in various discussions: can't
>>>> we get rid of /usr? The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
>>>> sense anymore.
>>> This is a very short-sighed view.
>> Oh, is it?
>>
>>>> We could make /usr a symlink to / for an interims phase
>>>> and everything would be good for conservative folks who think the FHS
>>>> is the holy bible.
>>> Religiousity isn't the point - The point is: There are reasons for why  
>>> the FHS rsp. the GNU standards are setup the way they are.
>> First of all FHS is not a "GNU standard". 
>>
>> Secondly, it is of course very convincing if you just nebulously say
>> 'there are rasons' instead of mentioning any.
> 
> Well, sometimes the fact that something *is* standard is far more important
> than what the standard is.  And /usr has been around for a very long time,
> and lots of software (an people, for that matter) know that it's there.
> Much of the GNU configured software by default installs in /usr/local.
> There has to be a very high bar for changing common practice.
> 
> Andrew.
> 

I can't help chiming in here - as a sys admin back at Brandeis in the early 
eighties, I had a professor with root privileges try to "fix" the spelling of 
"usr" for us on the department Vax running BSD.

Needless to say, not much worked when I got in the next morning to find my 
"/usr" had been renamed "/user".

Not sure how much would break today, but at relative dawn of UNIX time, it was 
painful :-) (And I revoked he lost root access, tenure or not)

ric



From behdad at behdad.org  Fri Apr 17 17:58:31 2009
From: behdad at behdad.org (Behdad Esfahbod)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:58:31 -0400
Subject: Fwd: LCD patches
In-Reply-To: <1239989217.14173.30.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <cba415ca0904170030v1a62f6e4p76f9b7e6d4dbfa70@mail.gmail.com>	<cba415ca0904170035x10992a15q53195f9b731d6d1c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E8B481.6070208@behdad.org>
	<gsadqt$s5c$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239989217.14173.30.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49E8C347.4060907@behdad.org>

On 04/17/2009 01:26 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 19:21 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>>> There are legal reasons that Fedora has not distributed those patches
>>> before. Those reasons still apply.
>> Those patches do not contain any subpixel antialiasing code, they just call
>> the freetype LCD filter when it's available. There is no actual subpixel
>> antialiasing being done if it's disabled in freetype. In fact, those
>> patches even REMOVE hardcoded subpixel filters, in favor of using the
>> freetype ones.
>
> In that case, as someone said in the bug, they should probably just go
> directly upstream. It does seem like a sensible way to do things,
> though.

Now I remember.  Quick update on this.  These patches *almost* went into cairo 
1.8, but were taken out at the release point by the benevolent 
dictator^Wmaintainer.  He had valid concerns.  I'll try to address them and 
have the feature added into cairo 1.10.

behdad



From rdieter at math.unl.edu  Fri Apr 17 18:06:28 2009
From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:06:28 -0500
Subject: orphaning apollon, gift, gift-gnutella gift-openft
Message-ID: <gsagf4$4ld$1@ger.gmane.org>

Post F-11, I'm orphaning:
apollon
gift
gift-gnutella
gift-openft

It's been a fun ride, but haven't used these in ages, nor does there seem to
be much upstream activity.

-- Rex



From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Fri Apr 17 18:09:46 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:09:46 -0400
Subject: VirtualBox guest additions prevent usage of kernel deltarpm
Message-ID: <49E8C5EA.20408@bwh.harvard.edu>

When the VirtualBox guest additions are installed for a given kernel, 
this apparently modifies the files modules.alias.bin, modules.dep.bin, 
and modules.symbols.bin in the corresponding kernel package, so the 
kernel deltarpm can't be used, and the full kernel package must be 
downloaded.  Considering that this is a common situation, and that these 
files are much smaller than the entire kernel package, is there any way 
this can be worked around, so the drpm can be used?  (VirtualBox doesn't 
seem to have any utility for removing guest additions, so I haven't 
tried that.)
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From jdieter at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 18:15:55 2009
From: jdieter at gmail.com (Jonathan Dieter)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:15:55 +0300
Subject: VirtualBox guest additions prevent usage of kernel deltarpm
In-Reply-To: <49E8C5EA.20408@bwh.harvard.edu>
References: <49E8C5EA.20408@bwh.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <1239992155.739.10.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:09 -0400, Andre Robatino wrote:
> When the VirtualBox guest additions are installed for a given kernel, 
> this apparently modifies the files modules.alias.bin, modules.dep.bin, 
> and modules.symbols.bin in the corresponding kernel package, so the 
> kernel deltarpm can't be used, and the full kernel package must be 
> downloaded.  Considering that this is a common situation, and that these 
> files are much smaller than the entire kernel package, is there any way 
> this can be worked around, so the drpm can be used?  (VirtualBox doesn't 
> seem to have any utility for removing guest additions, so I haven't 
> tried that.)

The easy way is to mark those files as %config.  Then deltarpm won't try
to delta those particular files.

Jonathan

P.S. It's not just VirtualBox.  If you use any kmods, I think you'll run
into this.
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From mjg at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 18:17:44 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:17:44 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 07:02:20PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Christopher Stone wrote:
> > 2009/4/16 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>:
> >>On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> >>>You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
> >>>previews behavior was better
> >>>
> >>On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
> >>that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
> >>by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.
> >
> >So what are they doing instead?
> Abusing the Fedora as Guinea pigs, as they've done many times before.

By doing the change upstream?

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From roland at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 18:19:01 2009
From: roland at redhat.com (Roland McGrath)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:19:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multilib/multiarch debuginfo
In-Reply-To: James Antill's message of  Friday, 17 April 2009 10:10:30 -0400
	<1239977430.9658.16.camel@code.and.org>
References: <1239887581.23619.5.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<20090416203646.4AC47FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239917677.9867.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416220032.D55B3FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239977430.9658.16.camel@code.and.org>
Message-ID: <20090417181901.611A1FC35F@magilla.sf.frob.com>

>  A few of the yum-utils commands take a --archlist, repoquery and
> yumdownloader both do for instance. This is more for looking at data on
> ppc from an i386 box, as i386 is already in the archlist for x86_64.
  ^^^

You meant x86_64 here, I think.  I noticed that switch and noticed that it
didn't help for this case.

>  And that doesn't change what $basearch will be in the config. files
> because doing that is a really bad idea due to the fact that you'll have
> changed what /var/cache/yum/blah/ points to without the next run of yum
> knowing (it's a bad idea to have the same repoid point to more than one
> place).

Right, I figured that would be the gotcha with what I had in mind.
Maybe it would make sense for yum to name its cache subdirs repo.basearch?

>  So what you probably want is to create a blah-i386 to go with your
> normal blah repo. ... which hardcodes i386 as the arch. Leave it
> disabled, and then whever you want to use it do:

It seems like a simple enough change to use basearch in the cache dir
names.  Then everyone could do this for all the repos without fiddling with
repo configs.  Does that seem like something yum could do in the future?
(I'm not asking for any of this to be done next week or anything.)

Maybe also --repoid et al could grok "reponame.arch" syntax (akin to the
package "name.arch" syntax you can use).  Another way to state it is that
the full "repoid" would be "reponame.arch", and "reponame" alone turns into
"reponame.$basearch" implicitly.


Thanks,
Roland



From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Fri Apr 17 18:27:36 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:27:36 -0400
Subject: VirtualBox guest additions prevent usage of kernel deltarpm
In-Reply-To: <1239992155.739.10.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
References: <49E8C5EA.20408@bwh.harvard.edu>
	<1239992155.739.10.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
Message-ID: <49E8CA18.2090202@bwh.harvard.edu>

Jonathan Dieter wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:09 -0400, Andre Robatino wrote:
>> When the VirtualBox guest additions are installed for a given kernel, 
>> this apparently modifies the files modules.alias.bin, modules.dep.bin, 
>> and modules.symbols.bin in the corresponding kernel package, so the 
>> kernel deltarpm can't be used, and the full kernel package must be 
>> downloaded.  Considering that this is a common situation, and that these 
>> files are much smaller than the entire kernel package, is there any way 
>> this can be worked around, so the drpm can be used?  (VirtualBox doesn't 
>> seem to have any utility for removing guest additions, so I haven't 
>> tried that.)
> 
> The easy way is to mark those files as %config.  Then deltarpm won't try
> to delta those particular files.
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> P.S. It's not just VirtualBox.  If you use any kmods, I think you'll run
> into this.
> 

Is it the same 3 files that get modified?  If so, there's a good case 
for doing what you suggest.  I tried gzipping copies of these 3 files 
and they compress pretty well (total size less than 200K), so the drpm 
shouldn't be significantly bigger.
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 18:28:43 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:28:43 -0700
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <f6ca9fed0904171050o3740b852t72398af22096d566@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
	<49E772FC.2030902@cora.nwra.com> <49E8AC6D.7090103@poolshark.org>
	<1239989127.14173.29.camel@adam.local.net>
	<f6ca9fed0904171050o3740b852t72398af22096d566@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239992923.14173.31.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 19:50 +0200, drago01 wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:25 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 18:21 +0200, Denis Leroy wrote:
> >
> >> Well just my luck, it seems I'm the only one suffering :-( Looks like a
> >> memory corruption either in gdm-session-worker or in the pam library.
> >
> > When I was running 2.6.29 builds from koji on my F10 laptop it stopped
> > the wireless working right, and John Linville couldn't figure out what
> > was wrong from the info I was able to provide. I hope this turns out to
> > work in the 2.6.29 that's been sent as an update :\ Haven't tried it
> > yet.
> 
> Afaik the patch has been reverted (the one which broke wireless).

Erm, I was extremely vague, so I'm not sure you can magically identify
the exact issue I was suffering from...still, I'll give it a shot.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From jwboyer at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 18:32:10 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:32:10 -0400
Subject: Multilib/multiarch debuginfo
In-Reply-To: <20090417181901.611A1FC35F@magilla.sf.frob.com>
References: <1239887581.23619.5.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<20090416203646.4AC47FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239917677.9867.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416220032.D55B3FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239977430.9658.16.camel@code.and.org>
	<20090417181901.611A1FC35F@magilla.sf.frob.com>
Message-ID: <625fc13d0904171132l480966dfj552c7db5fe665577@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Roland McGrath <roland at redhat.com> wrote:
>> ?A few of the yum-utils commands take a --archlist, repoquery and
>> yumdownloader both do for instance. This is more for looking at data on
>> ppc from an i386 box, as i386 is already in the archlist for x86_64.
> ?^^^
>
> You meant x86_64 here, I think. ?I noticed that switch and noticed that it
> didn't help for this case.
>
>> ?And that doesn't change what $basearch will be in the config. files
>> because doing that is a really bad idea due to the fact that you'll have
>> changed what /var/cache/yum/blah/ points to without the next run of yum
>> knowing (it's a bad idea to have the same repoid point to more than one
>> place).
>
> Right, I figured that would be the gotcha with what I had in mind.
> Maybe it would make sense for yum to name its cache subdirs repo.basearch?
>
>> ?So what you probably want is to create a blah-i386 to go with your
>> normal blah repo. ... which hardcodes i386 as the arch. Leave it
>> disabled, and then whever you want to use it do:
>
> It seems like a simple enough change to use basearch in the cache dir
> names. ?Then everyone could do this for all the repos without fiddling with
> repo configs. ?Does that seem like something yum could do in the future?
> (I'm not asking for any of this to be done next week or anything.)
>
> Maybe also --repoid et al could grok "reponame.arch" syntax (akin to the
> package "name.arch" syntax you can use). ?Another way to state it is that
> the full "repoid" would be "reponame.arch", and "reponame" alone turns into
> "reponame.$basearch" implicitly.

Not that it helps today, but there is an F12 feature called
DebuginfoFS that is supposed to make stuff like this easier.  It might
be worthwhile to get the mutltilib things sorted out there too.

josh



From anders at trudheim.co.uk  Fri Apr 17 18:38:39 2009
From: anders at trudheim.co.uk (Anders Rayner-Karlsson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:38:39 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>

* Matthew Garrett <mjg at redhat.com> [20090417 18:52]:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 08:43:28AM -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:
> >  2009/4/16 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>:
> > > On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> > >> You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
> > >> previews behavior was better
> > >>
> > > On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
> > > that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
> > > by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.
> > 
> > So what are they doing instead? Absolutely nothing?  How ridiculous.
> > Let's just make a bunch of extremely bad decisions and keep bad
> > defaults because actually trying to convince someone that the defaults
> > or decisions people make are bad is pointless.
> 
> The people to convince are the maintainers of the code in question, and 
> in the general case sprawling threads on distribution mailing lists 
> aren't a good way to do that. Some worthwhile ideas came out of this 
> discussion and were implemented - however, at this point it's just 
> repeating the same arguments over and over again, and argument ad 
> nauseum is not the most convincing approach.

While I am not a representative figure of the user population, I had a
case today where:

 * Thunar made a "grab" and I could not click to change focus away. To
   all intents and purposes, I was in the situation that the
   contingency for preserving C-A-Bs as enabled by default is holding
   up as the primary reason.

 * Switching to vc/2 gave a blank screen

 * My sshd setup is to only allow pub-key auth coming in to my laptop
   and I did not have the right keys on another system yet set up
   (that's now rectified), so ssh in to kill Thunar didn't work

I was doing some pretty intricate stuff for several customers in
parallel, and shooting the session through C-A-Bs was out of the
question *even though it was available as an option to me*.

I ended up logging in on the console "black screen", because I knew
there was a login there, and typing blind, I killed thunar off to
recover my session and the hours worth of work I had sitting in my
session.

So - from my perspective, being one of those hate-object "@RH" people,
while C-A-Bs was available, my choice was not to use it because the
work was more valuable than the 3-4 minutes to assess the situation
and to try a few ways to recover it.


C-A-Bs is akin to Alt-SysRq-C if you have SysRq's enabled. The default
setting should be "off" so that people by accident can't trigger
it. If you need it - you get to enable it yourself. That is a sensible
default for a debug function.


In all else you wrote Matthew, I agree with you.

(And while I have not yet filed a BZ against Thunar, that is
forthcoming shortly.)

--
/Anders



From wwoods at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 18:35:36 2009
From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:35:36 -0400
Subject: Multilib/multiarch debuginfo
In-Reply-To: <625fc13d0904171132l480966dfj552c7db5fe665577@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239887581.23619.5.camel@politzer.theorphys.helsinki.fi>
	<20090416203646.4AC47FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239917677.9867.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416220032.D55B3FC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239977430.9658.16.camel@code.and.org>
	<20090417181901.611A1FC35F@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<625fc13d0904171132l480966dfj552c7db5fe665577@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1239993336.26241.41.camel@metroid.usersys.redhat.com>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:32 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:

> Not that it helps today, but there is an F12 feature called
> DebuginfoFS that is supposed to make stuff like this easier.  It might
> be worthwhile to get the mutltilib things sorted out there too.

Not necessary; all debuginfo files have unique filenames, so we don't
need to know what arch the binaries are.

-w



From drago01 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 18:41:05 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:41:05 +0200
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <1239992923.14173.31.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org> <49E772FC.2030902@cora.nwra.com>
	<49E8AC6D.7090103@poolshark.org>
	<1239989127.14173.29.camel@adam.local.net>
	<f6ca9fed0904171050o3740b852t72398af22096d566@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239992923.14173.31.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904171141y311b5fe6jf83104cd637dde64@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 19:50 +0200, drago01 wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:25 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 18:21 +0200, Denis Leroy wrote:
>> >
>> >> Well just my luck, it seems I'm the only one suffering :-( Looks like a
>> >> memory corruption either in gdm-session-worker or in the pam library.
>> >
>> > When I was running 2.6.29 builds from koji on my F10 laptop it stopped
>> > the wireless working right, and John Linville couldn't figure out what
>> > was wrong from the info I was able to provide. I hope this turns out to
>> > work in the 2.6.29 that's been sent as an update :\ Haven't tried it
>> > yet.
>>
>> Afaik the patch has been reverted (the one which broke wireless).
>
> Erm, I was extremely vague, so I'm not sure you can magically identify
> the exact issue I was suffering from...still, I'll give it a shot.

Just guessing there was a patch that was reverted for this reason.
(iwl3945 was broken).



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr 17 18:45:22 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:45:22 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>
	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
	<1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E77919.5020704@homer.se>
Message-ID: <gsaio2$cee$1@ger.gmane.org>

Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> Yes, they can just reboot, pressing ctrl-alt-del instead. But wait, that
> is another shortcut that people accidentally can press. Should we "zap"
> that one also?

X11 already eats Ctrl+Alt+Del.

        Kevin Kofler



From notting at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 18:46:59 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:46:59 -0400
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
Message-ID: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11, meaning they
haven't been rebuilt with the new compiler, they have not been built
with the new RPM hashes, and so on.

While we don't want to cause disruption, we would like to see these
fixed if reasonably possible.

Owner	Package
=====	=======
athimm	libFoundation
awjb	polyxmass-bin
behdad	preload
clumens	elilo
cweyl	perl-RRD-Simple
dbhole	velocity
dchen	reciteword
devrim	classpathx-jaf
edhill	scrip
ertzing	MyPasswordSafe
fnasser	geronimo-specs
fnasser	jakarta-commons-el
gemi	oorexx
gemi	smarteiffel
ghenry	Sprog
green	ws-commons-util
huzaifas	labrea
huzaifas	libtar
ivazquez	xmlcopyeditor
jcollie	libresample
jnovy	compat-db
joost	fpc
jpye	fityk
jtulach	javahelp2
kurzawa	incollector
llim	redhat-lsb
mgarski	xscorch
mwringe	jline
mwringe	modello
mwringe	msv
mwringe	xdoclet
nsantos	ws-jaxme
olea	htmlparser
orphan	klear
pcheung	axis
pcheung	castor
pcheung	tagsoup
pfj	boo
pingou	R-BSgenome.Celegans.UCSC.ce2
pingou	R-BSgenome.Dmelanogaster.FlyBase.r51
pingou	R-hgu95av2probe
pmachata	flex
rakesh	coredumper
rezso	libgeotiff
sindrepb	cowbell
subhodip	kdetv
xris	orpie



From zaitcev at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 18:49:48 2009
From: zaitcev at redhat.com (Pete Zaitcev)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:49:48 -0600
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49E83BCD.7050207@hhs.nl>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904170908.21270.jzeleny@redhat.com> <49E83BCD.7050207@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <20090417124948.a7e486ae.zaitcev@redhat.com>

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:20:29 +0200, Hans de Goede <j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl> wrote:
> On 04/17/2009 09:08 AM, Jan Zelen? wrote:

> >> The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much sense anymore.
> >
> > I don't think that's true. How about one /usr ro mounted via network to
> > several machines?
> 
> This has not worked for the last X Fedora releases, due to us using Network
> Manager to bring up the Network, and NM living in /usr, see my other reply in
> this thread.

F11 without NM is perfectly functional. I don't even have it installed
on my laptop or any other Rawhide system.

-- Pete



From psmith at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 17 18:54:06 2009
From: psmith at fedoraproject.org (psmith)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:54:06 +0100
Subject: Fwd: LCD patches
In-Reply-To: <1239989217.14173.30.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <cba415ca0904170030v1a62f6e4p76f9b7e6d4dbfa70@mail.gmail.com>	<cba415ca0904170035x10992a15q53195f9b731d6d1c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E8B481.6070208@behdad.org>
	<gsadqt$s5c$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1239989217.14173.30.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49E8D04E.9090206@fedoraproject.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 19:21 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>   
>> Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>>     
>>> There are legal reasons that Fedora has not distributed those patches
>>> before. Those reasons still apply.
>>>       
>> Those patches do not contain any subpixel antialiasing code, they just call
>> the freetype LCD filter when it's available. There is no actual subpixel
>> antialiasing being done if it's disabled in freetype. In fact, those
>> patches even REMOVE hardcoded subpixel filters, in favor of using the
>> freetype ones.
>>     
>
> In that case, as someone said in the bug, they should probably just go
> directly upstream. It does seem like a sensible way to do things,
> though.
>   
omg could it actually be :-O something from ubuntu actually going upstream!

i never thought i'd see the day lol

phil



From behdad at behdad.org  Fri Apr 17 19:00:06 2009
From: behdad at behdad.org (Behdad Esfahbod)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:00:06 -0400
Subject: Fwd: LCD patches
In-Reply-To: <49E8D04E.9090206@fedoraproject.org>
References: <cba415ca0904170030v1a62f6e4p76f9b7e6d4dbfa70@mail.gmail.com>	<cba415ca0904170035x10992a15q53195f9b731d6d1c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E8B481.6070208@behdad.org>	<gsadqt$s5c$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1239989217.14173.30.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E8D04E.9090206@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49E8D1B6.3080509@behdad.org>

On 04/17/2009 02:54 PM, psmith wrote:
> Adam Williamson wrote:
>> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 19:21 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>> Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>>>> There are legal reasons that Fedora has not distributed those patches
>>>> before. Those reasons still apply.
>>> Those patches do not contain any subpixel antialiasing code, they
>>> just call
>>> the freetype LCD filter when it's available. There is no actual subpixel
>>> antialiasing being done if it's disabled in freetype. In fact, those
>>> patches even REMOVE hardcoded subpixel filters, in favor of using the
>>> freetype ones.
>>
>> In that case, as someone said in the bug, they should probably just go
>> directly upstream. It does seem like a sensible way to do things,
>> though.
> omg could it actually be :-O something from ubuntu actually going upstream!

The meat of patches were written by David Turner, one of the core developers 
of FreeType, and then improved by other cairo contributors on cairo bugzilla, 
and I added final touches before committing it (which was reverted later). 
Ubuntu just happens to be shipping with them...

> i never thought i'd see the day lol

Sorry to disappoint you.

behdad

> phil



From lars at homer.se  Fri Apr 17 19:05:37 2009
From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:05:37 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <gsaio2$cee$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<d9c612bf0904122158k39567abbne78addc986b0fd85@mail.gmail.com>	<e76492710904122329s3e9d4d25wa7b3a5b86066550c@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2DEAB.4060707@fedoraproject.org>	<e76492710904122350w2c2478c6t51992307b9236b2e@mail.gmail.com>	<49E2F199.6040709@fedoraproject.org>	<1239652665.6745.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49E3A3DB.1000000@comcast.net>	<49E4B65E.8030008@freenet.de>	<1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>	<1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E77919.5020704@homer.se>
	<gsaio2$cee$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49E8D301.9010209@homer.se>

On 04/17/2009 08:45 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
>> Yes, they can just reboot, pressing ctrl-alt-del instead. But wait, that
>> is another shortcut that people accidentally can press. Should we "zap"
>> that one also?
> 
> X11 already eats Ctrl+Alt+Del.

Well, it isn't removed, as ctrl-alt-backspace is proposed to be (it was 
that I meant wit "zap"), it shows a dialog.

Not sure what happens if X have crashed and one presses ctrl-alt-del 
though, perhaps someone else who have experienced this could tell us? 
Will it automatically shut down the system after 60 seconds, even though 
X is not responding?

So in a situation where X have crashed, and neither ctrl-alt-del (if 
that is the case) nor ctrl-alt-backspace works, one have to press the 
reset button or power cycle the computer, a, in my humble opinion, very 
bad and brutal way of solving a problem that was elegantly solved with 
ctrl-alt-backspace.

/Lars
-- 
Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/



From pemboa at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 19:13:17 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:13:17 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904171213t1229b8b3v3673054d8ab4cbc3@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Anders Rayner-Karlsson
<anders at trudheim.co.uk> wrote:
> * Matthew Garrett <mjg at redhat.com> [20090417 18:52]:

[ snip ]

> So - from my perspective, being one of those hate-object "@RH" people,
> while C-A-Bs was available, my choice was not to use it because the
> work was more valuable than the 3-4 minutes to assess the situation
> and to try a few ways to recover it.


Having that choice was good though, wasn't it? In the same way you
hadn't copied your keys to another machine, you maybe hadn't added the
new zap option to xorg.conf, so you no longer have that option.

And I don't think a new user would be expected to type blind in a
console... so they would have had to hit the reboot button, or the
shutdown button if they don't have a reboot button.

For me my desktop has as many important services running as I have
apps -- so restarting X is not as costly as restarting the machine.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 19:15:59 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:15:59 -0400
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49E8C0F1.3040608@gnat.ca>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de> 
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de> <49E8BF2D.4040103@redhat.com>
	<49E8C0F1.3040608@gnat.ca>
Message-ID: <e76492710904171215w2610d141ue84fb3c307af11a4@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:48 PM, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote:
> Andrew Haley wrote:
>
>> Well, sometimes the fact that something *is* standard is far more
>> important
>> than what the standard is. ?And /usr has been around for a very long time,
>> and lots of software (an people, for that matter) know that it's there.
>> Much of the GNU configured software by default installs in /usr/local.
>> There has to be a very high bar for changing common practice.
>
> Yeah, I agree. I mean I haven't really seen any *solid* reason for removing
> /usr. What does it improve? What situation does it fix? It doesn't save a
> massive amount of space, it doesn't increase performance, it doesn't resolve
> any long standing bug I can see. A change like that for so little gain will
> find it hard to gain traction I think.
>

Not that I support or not support dropping /usr, but let's do this
quick calculation:

Every day I spend 3 seconds in average to type /usr. I am pretty sure
that it is safe to assume that there are at least 100000 people like
me in the world. This makes 300000 seconds to type /usr every day in
the world. 300000 seconds is not easy to ignore, and can be used for
more useful and productive things, like replying to this topic. :p

Cheers,
Orcan



From mjg at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 19:25:59 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:25:59 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E8D301.9010209@homer.se>
References: <1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>
	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
	<1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E77919.5020704@homer.se> <gsaio2$cee$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49E8D301.9010209@homer.se>
Message-ID: <20090417192559.GA19828@srcf.ucam.org>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 09:05:37PM +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> On 04/17/2009 08:45 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >X11 already eats Ctrl+Alt+Del.
> 
> Well, it isn't removed, as ctrl-alt-backspace is proposed to be (it was 
> that I meant wit "zap"), it shows a dialog.

ctrl+alt+del has no special status within X. It's simply a keybinding 
that can be grabbed by the desktop and used to display something. 
ctrl+alt+bs now has an identical status.

> Not sure what happens if X have crashed and one presses ctrl-alt-del 
> though, perhaps someone else who have experienced this could tell us? 
> Will it automatically shut down the system after 60 seconds, even though 
> X is not responding?

That depends on the state the system is in. If X has crashed and exited, 
ctrl+alt+del will reset the system as if you were at the console. If X 
has stopped drawing on screen but is still processing the event loop, a 
dialog will pop up and shut the machine down after 60 seconds. If X 
isn't responding to anything, ctrl+alt+del will do nothing.

> So in a situation where X have crashed, and neither ctrl-alt-del (if 
> that is the case) nor ctrl-alt-backspace works, one have to press the 
> reset button or power cycle the computer, a, in my humble opinion, very 
> bad and brutal way of solving a problem that was elegantly solved with 
> ctrl-alt-backspace.

I don't /think/ (but will defer to people more familiar with this part 
of the server) that it's likely that you'll end up in situations where 
ctrl+alt+del won't work but ctrl+alt+bs will.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From psmith at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 17 19:30:14 2009
From: psmith at fedoraproject.org (psmith)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:30:14 +0100
Subject: no /etc/acpi/events in F11?
Message-ID: <49E8D8C6.1090008@fedoraproject.org>

i just noticed that there is no longer an /etc/acpi/events folder in 
F11, has this been totaly removed? as in f10 i use this to hook into 
acpi events  to change powersaving settings on my laptops. how would i 
go about doing this in f11?

phil



From nathanael at gnat.ca  Fri Apr 17 19:32:27 2009
From: nathanael at gnat.ca (Nathanael D. Noblet)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:32:27 -0600
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904171215w2610d141ue84fb3c307af11a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E8BF2D.4040103@redhat.com>	<49E8C0F1.3040608@gnat.ca>
	<e76492710904171215w2610d141ue84fb3c307af11a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E8D94B.3070601@gnat.ca>

Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:48 PM, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote:
>> Andrew Haley wrote:
>>
>>> Well, sometimes the fact that something *is* standard is far more
>>> important
>>> than what the standard is.  And /usr has been around for a very long time,
>>> and lots of software (an people, for that matter) know that it's there.
>>> Much of the GNU configured software by default installs in /usr/local.
>>> There has to be a very high bar for changing common practice.
>> Yeah, I agree. I mean I haven't really seen any *solid* reason for removing
>> /usr. What does it improve? What situation does it fix? It doesn't save a
>> massive amount of space, it doesn't increase performance, it doesn't resolve
>> any long standing bug I can see. A change like that for so little gain will
>> find it hard to gain traction I think.
>>
> 
> Not that I support or not support dropping /usr, but let's do this
> quick calculation:
> 
> Every day I spend 3 seconds in average to type /usr. I am pretty sure
> that it is safe to assume that there are at least 100000 people like
> me in the world. This makes 300000 seconds to type /usr every day in
> the world. 300000 seconds is not easy to ignore, and can be used for
> more useful and productive things, like replying to this topic. :p

why do you type /usr ? if you are going after a command its in the path 
already, so then maybe /usr/{share,doc,,,?} in which case use man X, or 
spend time improving and consolidating documentation readers for the 
case of /usr/share/doc/program-ver/random... in any case you still have 
to type /share/doc/program-.... or use tab completion. I don't see how 
removing /usr helps solve anything... if you are worried about the 3 
seconds, create a bunch of symlinks. Saves you time, doesn't break 
anything, uses next to no more space...?

I still don't see a *solid* reason to remove /usr. At least solid enough 
to justify the amount of work necessary to port all the packages over to 
new locations *particularly* when you'd probably want to have other 
distros on board as well. Its hard enough to find where something is in 
another distro because of minor naming stuff... Nevermind not following 
a common standard


-- 
Nathanael d. Noblet
T: 403.875.4613



From lars at homer.se  Fri Apr 17 19:36:48 2009
From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:36:48 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net>
	<1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
Message-ID: <49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>

On 04/17/2009 08:38 PM, Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
> While I am not a representative figure of the user population, I had a
> case today where:

Yes, but a new Linux user will not be able to do what you describe. They 
will try all things they can come up with, pressing the keyboard blindly 
etc., and finally press the reset button, or power cycle the computer.

I can not see that this is a good way to solve a problem where a few (!) 
persons accidentally have pressed ctrl-alt-backspace in the past.

Ctrl-alt-backspace *is* useful, and should, IMHO, be *on* by default, as 
it always has been. If upstream thinks otherwise, Fedora should be able 
to set it to on, as, as seen in this thread, and apparently in a lot of 
others, a lot of users are *against* removing this feature.

> C-A-Bs is akin to Alt-SysRq-C if you have SysRq's enabled. The default
> setting should be "off" so that people by accident can't trigger
> it. If you need it - you get to enable it yourself. That is a sensible
> default for a debug function.

How often does people actually accidentally press ctrl-alt-backspace? I 
have *never* done it.

I do not consider ctrl-alt-backspace a debug function. Sadly programs 
still hangs X once in a while, and having a keystroke available to press 
to kill X, when all you need to do is killing X, is good thing to have, 
and it should, IMHO, be available till we have a X that does not hang as 
often as it still does. Why having to reboot the machine when you 
actually only need to restart X? It does not make any sense, at least 
not to me.

/Lars
-- 
Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/



From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 19:41:20 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:41:20 +0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de>
	<20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <200904180041.20659.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Friday 17 April 2009 23:17:44 Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 07:02:20PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> By doing the change upstream?

And this may also be the time to drop this "upstream" point to.
There is no KMS upstream, but we have it here.
nv is default upstream.
Upstream defaults aren't that important.
If there were no per-distro defaults, 
there would be only one distro - the one with upstream defaults.

Suren



From lars at homer.se  Fri Apr 17 19:41:54 2009
From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:41:54 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090417192559.GA19828@srcf.ucam.org>
References: <1239750697.4354.74.camel@adam.local.net>	<d9c612bf0904141820j57606f84g95387381765c2c96@mail.gmail.com>	<1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>	<1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>	<49E77919.5020704@homer.se>
	<gsaio2$cee$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49E8D301.9010209@homer.se>
	<20090417192559.GA19828@srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <49E8DB82.2010808@homer.se>

On 04/17/2009 09:25 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> ctrl+alt+del has no special status within X. It's simply a keybinding 
> that can be grabbed by the desktop and used to display something. 
> ctrl+alt+bs now has an identical status.

OK, but it (ctrl-alt-backspace) is not supposed to be grabbed by the 
desktop to display something (by default), is that correct? At least as 
things are at the moment? Have I gotten this right?

/Lars
-- 
Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/



From mjg at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 19:48:36 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:48:36 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E8DB82.2010808@homer.se>
References: <1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
	<1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E77919.5020704@homer.se> <gsaio2$cee$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49E8D301.9010209@homer.se> <20090417192559.GA19828@srcf.ucam.org>
	<49E8DB82.2010808@homer.se>
Message-ID: <20090417194836.GA20499@srcf.ucam.org>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 09:41:54PM +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> On 04/17/2009 09:25 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> >ctrl+alt+del has no special status within X. It's simply a keybinding 
> >that can be grabbed by the desktop and used to display something. 
> >ctrl+alt+bs now has an identical status.
> 
> OK, but it (ctrl-alt-backspace) is not supposed to be grabbed by the 
> desktop to display something (by default), is that correct? At least as 
> things are at the moment? Have I gotten this right?

Currently ctrl+alt+backspace will not be grabbed by anything. If you're 
running gnome you can bind it through the keyboard shortcuts - this is 
the same place as ctrl+dlt+delete is bound.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 19:51:52 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:51:52 +0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
Message-ID: <200904180051.53166.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Saturday 18 April 2009 00:36:48 Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
>Why having to reboot the machine when you
> actually only need to restart X? It does not make any sense, at least
> not to me.

Of course it shouldn't make sense to anyone.
1. Kill X
All the applications which are running on *that* X are detached.
Most of them close right away.
Some (the ones which are better designed) save state and exit only after that.
Not that there are many programs in the latter group and in fact I don't know 
which programs do that, but at least they have all the chance to do it.
2. Reset
No program has any chance to save anything - no matter how good they are.
And the kernel is no exception.

So it's as simple as this:
Kill X - lose data
Reset - lose at least the same data + have a *big* chance of FS problems (and 
yes sometimes even completely hosed system).

<sarcasm>Which one is better? - You know, it's just a matter of 
taste.</sarcasm>

Suren



From anders at trudheim.co.uk  Fri Apr 17 19:58:59 2009
From: anders at trudheim.co.uk (Anders Rayner-Karlsson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:58:59 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904171213t1229b8b3v3673054d8ab4cbc3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<16de708d0904171213t1229b8b3v3673054d8ab4cbc3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090417195859.GC4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>

* Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> [20090417 21:15]:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Anders Rayner-Karlsson
> <anders at trudheim.co.uk> wrote:
> > * Matthew Garrett <mjg at redhat.com> [20090417 18:52]:
> 
> [ snip ]
> 
> > So - from my perspective, being one of those hate-object "@RH" people,
> > while C-A-Bs was available, my choice was not to use it because the
> > work was more valuable than the 3-4 minutes to assess the situation
> > and to try a few ways to recover it.
> 
> 
> Having that choice was good though, wasn't it? In the same way you
> hadn't copied your keys to another machine, you maybe hadn't added the
> new zap option to xorg.conf, so you no longer have that option.

Having the choice didn't make a blind bit of difference in this
instance as I was determined to keep the work. If I in F11 want Zap
capabilities, I can enable it. I'll probably leave it unmapped, so I
am encouraged to file defects against misbehaving applications
instead.

> And I don't think a new user would be expected to type blind in a
> console... so they would have had to hit the reboot button, or the
> shutdown button if they don't have a reboot button.

Either way, they'd lose the content of their session. If X really is
scrogged, hitting the power-button for a controlled shutdown so that
the hardware is reset to sane state is not a bad idea *for the new
users with limited skills*.

If you are savvy enough to know about Zap, you're savvy enough to
switch it on, just like with SysRq's.

> For me my desktop has as many important services running as I have
> apps -- so restarting X is not as costly as restarting the machine.

I'm glad for you, that you have an X-session so lightweight that you
can Zap it without losing any work. I long for the days when I had so
little to do on my desktop that I could make such a statement. ;)

--
/Anders



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 20:18:13 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:18:13 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <200904180041.20659.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com> 
	<49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de> <20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org> 
	<200904180041.20659.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904171318i41e9f350kb358c7774175f0e1@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> On Friday 17 April 2009 23:17:44 Matthew Garrett wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 07:02:20PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> By doing the change upstream?
>
> And this may also be the time to drop this "upstream" point to.
> There is no KMS upstream, but we have it here.
> nv is default upstream.
> Upstream defaults aren't that important.
> If there were no per-distro defaults,
> there would be only one distro - the one with upstream defaults.
>
> Suren
>

That is such a strong argument. But it is so true.

e.g. I don't think we have many packages in Fedora that uses
/usr/local as their prefix, which is a very common upstream default.

We first lost CTRL+ALT-F7, now CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE. What is next? The
"kill" command? I think that is left to the imagination of our
upstreams.

Orcan



From kevin at scrye.com  Fri Apr 17 20:29:30 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:29:30 -0600
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E81B71.8040907@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904161756230.28351@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E81B71.8040907@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20090417142930.3a787aeb@ohm.scrye.com>

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:02:25 +0200
Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:

> Seth Vidal wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, 16 Apr 2009, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > 
> >> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> >>> You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
> >>> previews behavior was better
> >>
> >> On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red
> >> Hat that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting
> >> their time by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.
> > 
> > In a survey of 10 RH employees you will find between 10 and 40
> > different opinions. sometimes more if you don't ask some of them to
> > confine their comments to a limited amount of time.
> Classical situation to call "the management", let them decide and to 
> name "someone to be in charge/responsible".
> 
> Unfortunately, this current FESCO has refused to decide.

No. FESCo did decide not to force maintainers to revert this change. 

Speaking only for myself, I think such micro-management sets a bad
precedent and should be avoided except in extraordinary situations,
which I don't think this is. 

kevin
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From anders at trudheim.co.uk  Fri Apr 17 20:32:21 2009
From: anders at trudheim.co.uk (Anders Rayner-Karlsson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:32:21 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
Message-ID: <20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>

* Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se> [20090417 21:37]:
> On 04/17/2009 08:38 PM, Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
>> While I am not a representative figure of the user population, I had a
>> case today where:
>
> Yes, but a new Linux user will not be able to do what you describe. They  
> will try all things they can come up with, pressing the keyboard blindly  
> etc., and finally press the reset button, or power cycle the computer.

You are not convincing me that Zap should be enabled by default with
that statement. Maybe I am coloured by experience though.

> I can not see that this is a good way to solve a problem where a few (!)  
> persons accidentally have pressed ctrl-alt-backspace in the past.

The counter-point is that it is hard to see a good or viable reason
for having a on-by-default ability to kill your session, your running
applications and lose data, without confirmation or warning.

> Ctrl-alt-backspace *is* useful, and should, IMHO, be *on* by default, as  
> it always has been. If upstream thinks otherwise, Fedora should be able  
> to set it to on, as, as seen in this thread, and apparently in a lot of  
> others, a lot of users are *against* removing this feature.

I am not arguing that it is useful or not. I have use for SysRq's and
find them useful, but I am not arguing for them to be on by
default. In any event, flogging a stinking horse carcass repeatedly
won't get the carcass winning the next Grand National. ;)

>From one perspective, a safe default while still allowing skilled
users to switch on "poweruser" features is a better starting point
from a usability argument.

"Once you know how to start a fire, you can proceed to singe your
eyebrows off with it."

>> C-A-Bs is akin to Alt-SysRq-C if you have SysRq's enabled. The default
>> setting should be "off" so that people by accident can't trigger
>> it. If you need it - you get to enable it yourself. That is a sensible
>> default for a debug function.
>
> How often does people actually accidentally press ctrl-alt-backspace? I  
> have *never* done it.

By same argument, taking a rather tongue in cheek attitude, how often
does countries with nuclear ICBM's launch them by accident?

While you certainly can present an argument based on that you have
_never_ done this by accident, I'd like to point you at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance for reasons why
this is, IMHO, not a sustainable platform to argue from.

> I do not consider ctrl-alt-backspace a debug function. Sadly programs  
> still hangs X once in a while, and having a keystroke available to press  
> to kill X, when all you need to do is killing X, is good thing to have,  
> and it should, IMHO, be available till we have a X that does not hang as  
> often as it still does. Why having to reboot the machine when you  
> actually only need to restart X? It does not make any sense, at least  
> not to me.

While I disagree with your classification of the C-A-Bs functionality,
lets just agree to disagree on that, I agree that some programs still
cause issues with X (having today encountered it first hand).

As has been explained *extensively* already, you will still have the
ability to do what you desire - but you will need to (trivially)
enable this yourself in future. As also has been posited already, this
has been blown way out of proportion, quite possibly based on
erroneous assumptions.

--
/Anders



From tomek at pipebreaker.pl  Fri Apr 17 20:55:50 2009
From: tomek at pipebreaker.pl (Tomasz Torcz)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:55:50 +0200
Subject: no /etc/acpi/events in F11?
In-Reply-To: <49E8D8C6.1090008@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49E8D8C6.1090008@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <20090417205550.GA14333@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 08:30:14PM +0100, psmith wrote:
> i just noticed that there is no longer an /etc/acpi/events folder in F11, 
> has this been totaly removed? as in f10 i use this to hook into acpi events 
>  to change powersaving settings on my laptops. how would i go about doing 
> this in f11?


  I have this folder on F11, it is owned by acpid. Moreover, there were
SELinux policy fixes for this folder recently, so it's not going away :)

  Nevertheless, powersaving changes should better go to /etc/pm/

-- 
Tomasz Torcz                        To co nierealne -- tutaj jest normalne.
xmpp: zdzichubg at chrome.pl          Ziomale na ?ycie maj? tu patenty specjalne.

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From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 21:07:44 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:07:44 -0700
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <f6ca9fed0904171141y311b5fe6jf83104cd637dde64@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
	<49E772FC.2030902@cora.nwra.com> <49E8AC6D.7090103@poolshark.org>
	<1239989127.14173.29.camel@adam.local.net>
	<f6ca9fed0904171050o3740b852t72398af22096d566@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239992923.14173.31.camel@adam.local.net>
	<f6ca9fed0904171141y311b5fe6jf83104cd637dde64@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240002464.14173.32.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 20:41 +0200, drago01 wrote:

> Just guessing there was a patch that was reverted for this reason.
> (iwl3945 was broken).

Swing and a miss - the laptop in question is ath9k (or ath5k, I
forget). :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From drago01 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 21:12:00 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:12:00 +0200
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
In-Reply-To: <1240002464.14173.32.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org> <49E772FC.2030902@cora.nwra.com>
	<49E8AC6D.7090103@poolshark.org>
	<1239989127.14173.29.camel@adam.local.net>
	<f6ca9fed0904171050o3740b852t72398af22096d566@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239992923.14173.31.camel@adam.local.net>
	<f6ca9fed0904171141y311b5fe6jf83104cd637dde64@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240002464.14173.32.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904171412t66abb53egaf27a9934950cadb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:07 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 20:41 +0200, drago01 wrote:
>
>> Just guessing there was a patch that was reverted for this reason.
>> (iwl3945 was broken).
>
> Swing and a miss - the laptop in question is ath9k (or ath5k, I
> forget). :)

damn ;)

But I can tell you that ath9k works for me* ("Atheros AR5416 MAC/BB
Rev:2 AR2133"), but that's a desktop here (using
2.6.29.1-30.fc10.x86_64)



*Well there is a specific issue with one particular AP, but that
always was the case, upstream bug is filled.



From my.accountnow at ntlworld.com  Fri Apr 17 21:13:45 2009
From: my.accountnow at ntlworld.com (Dan)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:13:45 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de>
	<20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <20090417211343.GA15031@ntlworld.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 07:17:44PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 07:02:20PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > Christopher Stone wrote:
> > > 2009/4/16 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>:
> > >>On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> > >>>You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
> > >>>previews behavior was better
> > >>>
> > >>On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
> > >>that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
> > >>by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.
> > >
> > >So what are they doing instead?
> > Abusing the Fedora as Guinea pigs, as they've done many times before.

> By doing the change upstream?
The name sounds familiar...are you by any chance the same
Matthew Garrett that ran for Debian Project leader and then went on
to Ubuntu?
-- 
"The plural of anecdote is not data."
                --Roger Brinner



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 21:14:03 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:14:03 -0700
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904171215w2610d141ue84fb3c307af11a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de> <20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E8BF2D.4040103@redhat.com> <49E8C0F1.3040608@gnat.ca>
	<e76492710904171215w2610d141ue84fb3c307af11a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240002843.14173.33.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 15:15 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

> Not that I support or not support dropping /usr, but let's do this
> quick calculation:
> 
> Every day I spend 3 seconds in average to type /usr. I am pretty sure
> that it is safe to assume that there are at least 100000 people like
> me in the world. This makes 300000 seconds to type /usr every day in
> the world. 300000 seconds is not easy to ignore, and can be used for
> more useful and productive things, like replying to this topic. :p

You're forgetting to factor in the amount of time people spend doing
"/usr...d'oh...backspace backspace backspace backspace" after the
change ;)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From ilyes.gouta at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 21:16:08 2009
From: ilyes.gouta at gmail.com (Ilyes Gouta)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:16:08 +0100
Subject: Profiling X, KDE, KWin and friends...
In-Reply-To: <49E8C108.8030404@hidayahonline.org>
References: <234fa2210904150412p267a0543yc487009a979f559a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49E895C9.6000509@hidayahonline.org>
	<1239984036.14173.25.camel@adam.local.net> 
	<49E8C108.8030404@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <234fa2210904171416we26d841hbecc28461ce4ab5a@mail.gmail.com>

:)

I've been running Fedora on my machines since FC5 and I have a rather clear
understanding of the current situation, especially on the graphics front :)
I hope the new architecture (GEM, KMS, tiling, UXA, EXA, etc.) settles down
before F12. F11 is bringing a lot of changes hence new bugs, but we're all
here to report back and fix them, when possible.

To Adam Jackson: Thanks for the details concerning the -debuginfo packages.

Regards,
Ilyes Gouta.

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:48 PM, Basil Mohamed Gohar <
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org> wrote:

> On 04/18/2009 12:00 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 22:44 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Ilyes,
>>>
>>> I was having terrible problems with F10 on my 4+year-old laptop, and I
>>> am now running rawhide from a F11 Beta install, and nearly all my
>>> problems, including disk&  display performance problems, have gone
>>> away.  I hope I am not far from the truth when I say (at least as I've
>>> been told) Xorg in F10 had some issues, almost all of which are fixed in
>>> the version that is scheduled for F11.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'd say you're over-simplifying. :) There were large changes in both the
>> X server itself and the various hardware drivers in F10, and there are
>> equally large (or possibly even larger) changes for F11 too. Some things
>> that were broken in F10 are fixed in F11. Some things that were broken
>> in F10 are currently still broken in F11. And a few things are broken in
>> F11 that weren't broken in F10. Obviously we're trying to make sure the
>> first group of things is as large as possible and the other two as
>> small, but please don't over-promise, it frequently leads to
>> disappointment :)
>>
>>
> Good points, all of them.  That's why I tried to keep the experience as
> personal as possible (e.g., "I was having...", "...all my problems...").  My
> mistake, obviously, was in stating a truth about Xorg server based on my
> limited set of experiences with it.  Duly noted.  Good job to all the devs,
> Xorg & otherwise, on F11 progress!
>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 21:17:24 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:17:24 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904171318i41e9f350kb358c7774175f0e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de> <20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
	<200904180041.20659.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<e76492710904171318i41e9f350kb358c7774175f0e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240003044.14173.35.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 16:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

> e.g. I don't think we have many packages in Fedora that uses
> /usr/local as their prefix, which is a very common upstream default.

That's not a valid example. This discrepancy is exactly what the
defaults are intended to preserve. The whole point is that stuff sourced
from your distribution and stuff you build yourself from source code
wind up in two different places so you can easily tell one from the
other (and, in the worst case, wipe out /usr/local and know you're back
at a stock system).

This is not a useful case to argue that *all* upstream defaults
shouldn't be considered in setting Fedora defaults.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From lars at homer.se  Fri Apr 17 21:29:02 2009
From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:29:02 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net>
	<1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
Message-ID: <49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>

On 04/17/2009 10:32 PM, Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
> * Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se> [20090417 21:37]:
>> How often does people actually accidentally press ctrl-alt-backspace? I  
>> have *never* done it.
> 
> By same argument, taking a rather tongue in cheek attitude, how often
> does countries with nuclear ICBM's launch them by accident?

It is not argument as such. If the decision has been made to remove this 
functionality, the decision has to be based on something. In this case 
it seem to be based on that people accidentally can press this 
key-stroke combination and loose data. If this is the case, it is 
important to know how often this actually happens.

If you look at real life. In our kitchens we have knifes. You can 
accidentally injure yourself quite badly with a knife. Should we just 
because of this zap all knife blades to make them safe?

I.e. we have made a decision that knifes are good to have, accidents do 
happen, but the benefit from having knifes are greater than the 
consequences of the accidents that can happen. So we keep our knifes.

This analogy converted to this discussion says that OK some, a few, may 
accidentally press ctrl-alt-backspace, but at the same time this 
particular key-stroke is very handy under those circumstances when X 
behaves badly. By removing the functionality you also adds another cost, 
the cost of extra data loss and other problems, i.e. with file systems, 
as user, when ctrl-alt-backspace does not work, finally will press the 
reset button or power cycle their computer. As I see it the benefit from 
having ctrl-alt-backspace is greater than the cost of a few loosing data.

I.e. how often this problem happens, people accidentally pressing 
ctrl-alt-backspace, is a valid question in this discussion. Does it 
happen more often than X crashes? Or less? This is an important 
parameter in the decision to keep, or not keep, the functionality.

> While you certainly can present an argument based on that you have
> _never_ done this by accident, I'd like to point you at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance for reasons why
> this is, IMHO, not a sustainable platform to argue from.

Sigh! I just mentioned that *I* had never accidentally pressed this key 
combination during all those years that I have been using Linux, and 
therefore find it strange that this has become such a big issue that 
some wants to remove this functionality. It was *NOT* ment to be a 
platform to argue from, such an argument would be plainly stupid. If I 
during all my years have never accidentally pressed this combination, 
how often does it happen to others? I.e. for me X crashes have happened 
way more often then me accidentally pressing ctrl-alt-backspace. How is 
it for others?

English is not my first language, I hope you get what I am getting at 
this time...

> As has been explained *extensively* already, you will still have the
> ability to do what you desire - but you will need to (trivially)
> enable this yourself in future. As also has been posited already, this
> has been blown way out of proportion, quite possibly based on
> erroneous assumptions.

What I will do or not do, or what the consequences will be for me 
personally is actually totally un-important for this discussion. I will 
just enable the functionality and live on as before.

The important thing is that this removal can create problems for new 
user of Linux. Why should we learn them to restart the whole machine 
when it is not needed, and even may create extra data loss, and even 
problems with the file system. I actually can not understand this. 
Should we not make life easy for the new ones?

/Lars
-- 
Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/



From markg85 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 22:21:00 2009
From: markg85 at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:21:00 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
Message-ID: <6e24a8e80904171521o57d5373dxc869d46d59c276c2@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se> wrote:
> On 04/17/2009 10:32 PM, Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
>>
>> * Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se> [20090417 21:37]:
>>>
>>> How often does people actually accidentally press ctrl-alt-backspace? I
>>> ?have *never* done it.
>>
>> By same argument, taking a rather tongue in cheek attitude, how often
>> does countries with nuclear ICBM's launch them by accident?
>
> It is not argument as such. If the decision has been made to remove this
> functionality, the decision has to be based on something. In this case it
> seem to be based on that people accidentally can press this key-stroke
> combination and loose data. If this is the case, it is important to know how
> often this actually happens.
>
> If you look at real life. In our kitchens we have knifes. You can
> accidentally injure yourself quite badly with a knife. Should we just
> because of this zap all knife blades to make them safe?
>
> I.e. we have made a decision that knifes are good to have, accidents do
> happen, but the benefit from having knifes are greater than the consequences
> of the accidents that can happen. So we keep our knifes.
>
> This analogy converted to this discussion says that OK some, a few, may
> accidentally press ctrl-alt-backspace, but at the same time this particular
> key-stroke is very handy under those circumstances when X behaves badly. By
> removing the functionality you also adds another cost, the cost of extra
> data loss and other problems, i.e. with file systems, as user, when
> ctrl-alt-backspace does not work, finally will press the reset button or
> power cycle their computer. As I see it the benefit from having
> ctrl-alt-backspace is greater than the cost of a few loosing data.
>
> I.e. how often this problem happens, people accidentally pressing
> ctrl-alt-backspace, is a valid question in this discussion. Does it happen
> more often than X crashes? Or less? This is an important parameter in the
> decision to keep, or not keep, the functionality.
>
>> While you certainly can present an argument based on that you have
>> _never_ done this by accident, I'd like to point you at
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance for reasons why
>> this is, IMHO, not a sustainable platform to argue from.
>
> Sigh! I just mentioned that *I* had never accidentally pressed this key
> combination during all those years that I have been using Linux, and
> therefore find it strange that this has become such a big issue that some
> wants to remove this functionality. It was *NOT* ment to be a platform to
> argue from, such an argument would be plainly stupid. If I during all my
> years have never accidentally pressed this combination, how often does it
> happen to others? I.e. for me X crashes have happened way more often then me
> accidentally pressing ctrl-alt-backspace. How is it for others?
>
> English is not my first language, I hope you get what I am getting at this
> time...
>
>> As has been explained *extensively* already, you will still have the
>> ability to do what you desire - but you will need to (trivially)
>> enable this yourself in future. As also has been posited already, this
>> has been blown way out of proportion, quite possibly based on
>> erroneous assumptions.
>
> What I will do or not do, or what the consequences will be for me personally
> is actually totally un-important for this discussion. I will just enable the
> functionality and live on as before.
>
> The important thing is that this removal can create problems for new user of
> Linux. Why should we learn them to restart the whole machine when it is not
> needed, and even may create extra data loss, and even problems with the file
> system. I actually can not understand this. Should we not make life easy for
> the new ones?
>
> /Lars
> --
> Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se>
> http://www.sm6rpz.se/
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

If i'm right this is the second flame war about the DontZap "feature"...
After reading roughly 100 posts (some quite interesting) in this flame
war and some of the previous flame war i'm still not convinced that
this new default for dontzap is the right one.
The one -- and only -- reason that i see popping up all the time is
emacs being stupid enough to have a ctr+alt+bs key binding in it as
well.

I would really like to see the reasoning behind this new default for
dontzap.. i wonder if there is any reasoning behind it at all.

The way i see it there are a few options to get past this issue.
1. (the red hat way) take it the way it is now or use another distribution
2. restore dontzap to it's "old" value.. it worked fine for many years
so why change it if it isn't even broken
3. spam emacs for having a ctrl+alt+bs key binding and demand that
they use some other key mix

Option 1 is what RH will probably do because they are to stubborn to
revert it even though the majority of the people will vote for the old
behavior if they dare to keep a vote.
Option 2 and 3 is what has to be done if you ask me and as long as it
hasn't been done redhat should patch those packages and contact the
ones that need to be contacted.

About how the decision was made to change DontZap. Xorg is a big
package and millions of users (hundreds of distributions) use it
because it's just the "(un)official" standard. now it's very strange
to see how ONE person (or that's the idea that i get behind this
change) is somehow allowed to make a decision for millions of people!
That just seems wrong to me. Meritocracy shouldn't be allowed in a
project that can potentially have a huge impact and if that is allowed
they should probably be forked to a group that does listen to the
users (must be Democracy!!). Or all switch to DirectFB. Xorg should
only be allowed to IMPROVE xorg, to support more stuff and not to
delete features (or at least not features that everyone will notice in
a negative way if deleted) unless approved by the biggest
distributions that use Xorg. (and those distributions should all have
polls with the same questions to ask the user base).

The way things are going now (with Xorg and Gnome!!) is still (just
barely) going fine but i suspect that forks are going to arise if more
is going to change that shouldn't be changed (if you ask the users).

I wonder what will happen if i make a application that listens to the
CTR+ALT+DEL command and does something.. will gnome then get patched
because another app is using the key mix?

And something different. Wouldn't it be a good idea to make a linux
standards site decided by the users where the users decide how they
like to have things. The majority then decides a standard instead of
just a few people with a idea. With a site like that i don't mean the
freedesktop standards!! Those are of course fine if the majority
agrees with them.

Btw. Meritocracy seems dangerously close to ignorance and arrogance...

Just my opinion about DontZap.
Mark.



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr 17 22:33:46 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:33:46 +0200
Subject: F-10 kernel upgrade
References: <49E761B7.3080300@poolshark.org>
Message-ID: <gsb04a$mfi$1@ger.gmane.org>

Denis Leroy wrote:
> What is the reasoning for pushing a 2.6.29 kernel to Fedora 10 (a stable
> release about half-way its lifetime) ? Was there something fundamentally
> wrong with the 2.6.27.x kernel ? Why introduce some much instability ?

It has always been the Fedora kernel maintainers' policy to push new kernel
versions as updates (and I like that policy - if you don't want new
versions in your updates, you can use one of the many distributions around
which don't push them). It's just 2.6.28 which was skipped.

        Kevin Kofler



From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 22:35:55 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:35:55 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11

The list from bill is a bit light.  I've re-ran my needed rebuild script
and it is at http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr 17 22:38:19 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:38:19 +0200
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
References: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090416175619.GA26594@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <gsb0cr$mfi$2@ger.gmane.org>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Yes, this should work. PA picks up all audio devices that are
> connected via the bt applet.

Is that code specific to gnome-bluetooth or does it also work with other
bluez frontends, e.g. kdebluetooth?

        Kevin Kofler



From mjg at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 22:41:00 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:41:00 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090417211343.GA15031@ntlworld.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de>
	<20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417211343.GA15031@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <20090417224100.GA23358@srcf.ucam.org>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 10:13:45PM +0100, Dan wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 07:17:44PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > By doing the change upstream?
> The name sounds familiar...are you by any chance the same
> Matthew Garrett that ran for Debian Project leader and then went on
> to Ubuntu?

Yes.
-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 22:47:02 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:47:02 +0200
Subject: bluetooth headsets and pulseaudio in rawhide
In-Reply-To: <gsb0cr$mfi$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <5256d0b0904161002k1ecf30a3l4187d2e66a21eb87@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090416175619.GA26594@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gsb0cr$mfi$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090417224702.GA29072@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sat, 18.04.09 00:38, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler at chello.at) wrote:

> 
> Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > Yes, this should work. PA picks up all audio devices that are
> > connected via the bt applet.
> 
> Is that code specific to gnome-bluetooth or does it also work with other
> bluez frontends, e.g. kdebluetooth?

No clue. I doubt they follow upstream bluez as closely as Bastien
does. Also, AFAICS KDE as a whole is not particularly warm to
PA. Without PA having such a feature does not make too much sense
however.

You should be able to run gnome-bluetooth inside of KDE as
well. 

But hey, best thing is to ask the kde guys.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From opensource at till.name  Fri Apr 17 22:45:28 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:45:28 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904180045.49335.opensource@till.name>

On Sa April 18 2009, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> > The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11
>
> The list from bill is a bit light.  I've re-ran my needed rebuild script
> and it is at http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html

Your list is a bit too long, because it also contains a package that I did not 
yet import into Fedora (the CVS module was created today) and afaik it will 
never be built for dist-f11, because of the Freeze Policy:

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/packageinfo?packageID=gpscorrelate

Regards
Till
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr 17 22:51:43 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:51:43 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E7CAFC.90203@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gsb15v$qsb$1@ger.gmane.org>

Caius 'kaio' Chance wrote:
> Would this help saving the '--prefix=/usr' ?

No, as the default is /usr/local, not /.

        Kevin Kofler



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 22:54:56 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:54:56 -0400
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240008896.3744.181.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> ivazquez	xmlcopyeditor

CANTFIX, until the new libxml2 gets in.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr 17 23:02:36 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:02:36 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Debian /etc doesn't need to be rw. And it wouldn't be too difficult
> to allow the same on Fedora.

Mounting /etc read-only makes no sense at all, config files are designed to
be writable.

Relatedly, files which are not intended to be reconfigured by the system
administrator belong into /usr/share, not /etc. Unfortunately, quite some
software gets this wrong (basically, any file in /etc not marked %config is
a sign that something is abusing /etc).

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr 17 23:06:21 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:06:21 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E8BF2D.4040103@redhat.com> <49E8C0F1.3040608@gnat.ca>
	<e76492710904171215w2610d141ue84fb3c307af11a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240002843.14173.33.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <gsb21d$qsb$3@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> You're forgetting to factor in the amount of time people spend doing
> "/usr...d'oh...backspace backspace backspace backspace" after the
> change ;)

Not if /usr is symlinked (or bind-mounted or whatever) to /. Those
environments already not using /usr (HURD, MSYS etc.) all do something like
that. It has to be done for compatibility with existing software anyway.

(That said, I don't see a compelling case for doing that kind of hackery,
there's nothing wrong with having /usr being separate.)

        Kevin Kofler



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 23:11:13 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:11:13 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090417231113.GC29072@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sat, 18.04.09 01:02, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler at chello.at) wrote:

> 
> Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > On Debian /etc doesn't need to be rw. And it wouldn't be too difficult
> > to allow the same on Fedora.
> 
> Mounting /etc read-only makes no sense at all, config files are designed to
> be writable.

Oh, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, most config files are only
touched during installation and during package upgrades. Otherwise
they are practically read-only. During package upgrades or if the
admin really wants to change something he can temporarily remount / to
rw without a problem. This is eprfectly well supported by Debian.

Now, the only stumbling block for this is that some files (like
/etc/resolv.conf) are rewritten from time to time. But that's a bad
bad misdesign anyway and we should really get rid of
/etc/resolv.conf. In the meantime one can do what Debian did and make
resolv.conf a symlink to a writable location.

> Relatedly, files which are not intended to be reconfigured by the system
> administrator belong into /usr/share, not /etc. Unfortunately, quite some
> software gets this wrong (basically, any file in /etc not marked %config is
> a sign that something is abusing /etc).

You are going to have fun with that. Succeeding with moving stuff like
/etc/services to /usr/share is even more unlikely than pushing the
removal of /usr through in Fedora.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Fri Apr 17 23:15:09 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:15:09 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<20090417125428.GC1322964@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <gsb2ht$qsb$4@ger.gmane.org>

Chris Adams wrote:
> Aside from any "religious" debate, there's a practical problem: last
> time anything like this was tried, rpm couldn't handle moving
> directories to symlinks.  That's why init.d is still under /etc/rc.d
> instead of just /etc (and /etc/init.d is a symlink).

This can be hacked around with some fragile %pretrans hackery. That said, I
don't think that'd be feasible for such a radical change (affecting nearly
all packages), it'd have to be done by some special-case code (which is a
strong argument not to do it).

        Kevin Kofler



From jspaleta at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 23:16:00 2009
From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:16:00 -0800
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417231113.GC29072@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de> <gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090417231113.GC29072@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <604aa7910904171616t1fb3554asa27dfdd788a89a3d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Lennart Poettering
<mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
> Oh, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, most config files are only
> touched during installation and during package upgrades. Otherwise
> they are practically read-only. During package upgrades or if the
> admin really wants to change something he can temporarily remount / to
> rw without a problem. This is eprfectly well supported by Debian.

Hmm I guess we need to redesign how denyhosts works as a service as
its default operation is to edit /etc/hosts.deny..quite frequently.

Should I file a bug report now?
-jef



From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr 17 23:16:08 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:16:08 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <200904180045.49335.opensource@till.name>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904180045.49335.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <1240010168.9867.20.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 00:45 +0200, Till Maas wrote:
> Your list is a bit too long, because it also contains a package that I did not 
> yet import into Fedora (the CVS module was created today) and afaik it will 
> never be built for dist-f11, because of the Freeze Policy:
> 
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/packageinfo?packageID=gpscorrelate

That's fine, you can ignore that one.  However the criteria is
"available to be built in dist-f11".

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Fri Apr 17 23:16:10 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:16:10 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090417231610.GA1177984@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> said:
> Mounting /etc read-only makes no sense at all, config files are designed to
> be writable.

Now, if initrd could handle /etc being on a separate filesystem, that
would be cool.  I might would leave /usr on / (mounted ro) if that were
the case (although that wouldn't help with the case I recently had where
/usr was corrupted but I still booted "emergency" mode to restore from
tape).

-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 23:22:30 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:22:30 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417231610.GA1177984@hiwaay.net>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org> <20090417231610.GA1177984@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <20090417232230.GA31693@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 17.04.09 18:16, Chris Adams (cmadams at hiwaay.net) wrote:

> 
> Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> said:
> > Mounting /etc read-only makes no sense at all, config files are designed to
> > be writable.
> 
> Now, if initrd could handle /etc being on a separate filesystem, that
> would be cool.  I might would leave /usr on / (mounted ro) if that were
> the case (although that wouldn't help with the case I recently had where
> /usr was corrupted but I still booted "emergency" mode to restore from
> tape).

It doesn't make sense to have /etc/ a seperate parition from /.

A sensible design would be to have / as a whole should be ro. And then
/home, /var, /tmp mounted rw.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 23:24:45 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:24:45 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <gsb2ht$qsb$4@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<20090417125428.GC1322964@hiwaay.net> <gsb2ht$qsb$4@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090417232445.GB31693@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sat, 18.04.09 01:15, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler at chello.at) wrote:

> 
> Chris Adams wrote:
> > Aside from any "religious" debate, there's a practical problem: last
> > time anything like this was tried, rpm couldn't handle moving
> > directories to symlinks.  That's why init.d is still under /etc/rc.d
> > instead of just /etc (and /etc/init.d is a symlink).
> 
> This can be hacked around with some fragile %pretrans hackery. That said, I
> don't think that'd be feasible for such a radical change (affecting nearly
> all packages), it'd have to be done by some special-case code (which is a
> strong argument not to do it).

I don't think the switch would be that complicated. The packagers
could change --prefix=/usr to --prefix=/ in the spec files whenever
they want. And when the last package is updated accordingly and a bit
of time passed and /usr is empty it could be replaced by a symlink.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 23:28:30 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:28:30 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <604aa7910904171616t1fb3554asa27dfdd788a89a3d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090417231113.GC29072@tango.0pointer.de>
	<604aa7910904171616t1fb3554asa27dfdd788a89a3d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090417232830.GC31693@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 17.04.09 15:16, Jeff Spaleta (jspaleta at gmail.com) wrote:

> 
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Lennart Poettering
> <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
> > Oh, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, most config files are only
> > touched during installation and during package upgrades. Otherwise
> > they are practically read-only. During package upgrades or if the
> > admin really wants to change something he can temporarily remount / to
> > rw without a problem. This is eprfectly well supported by Debian.
> 
> Hmm I guess we need to redesign how denyhosts works as a service as
> its default operation is to edit /etc/hosts.deny..quite frequently.
> 
> Should I file a bug report now?

I am not aware that it was an official Fedora goal to make it boot
from a ro /. Would be good if it was, though.

However, no daemon should ever touch files in /etc automatically. That
NM does that is pretty bad style. Instead resolv.conf should be
replaced by a symlink to /var and manipulated there.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 23:33:38 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:33:38 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417125226.GB1322964@hiwaay.net>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<20090417125226.GB1322964@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <20090417233338.GA31592@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 17.04.09 07:52, Chris Adams (cmadams at hiwaay.net) wrote:

> 
> Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> said:
> > In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /.
> 
> Only things needed for boot have been moved to /.
> 
> > And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
> > /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not.
> 
> You're wrong.  On my servers, I make a small / and bigger /usr (mounted
> ro).  The small / has a big advantage: less likely to fail.
> 
> Real-world example: I recently had a drive failure (actually multiple
> drive failure in a RAID), and /usr was corrupted beyond repair.  I was
> still able to boot in "emergency" mode, mounting only /, and restore
> /usr from tape.

That sounds like a pretty arbitrary reason. I mean, if that's how you want
to create fail-safety then why don't you advocate splitting up the
whole mess even further? Why just three levels of hierarchies, why not
15? 

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Fri Apr 17 23:38:34 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:38:34 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417232830.GC31693@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090417231113.GC29072@tango.0pointer.de>
	<604aa7910904171616t1fb3554asa27dfdd788a89a3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417232830.GC31693@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <20090417233834.GB1177984@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> said:
> However, no daemon should ever touch files in /etc automatically. That
> NM does that is pretty bad style. Instead resolv.conf should be
> replaced by a symlink to /var and manipulated there.

/etc is by standard for system configuration files.  It is unreasonable
to expect everything that needs to update system configuration to have
to know to remount read-write / (or /etc or whatever).  Making a bunch
of symlinks just to repoint configuration files out of the configuration
directory would be stupid.
-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 23:48:49 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:48:49 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417233834.GB1177984@hiwaay.net>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>
	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090417231113.GC29072@tango.0pointer.de>
	<604aa7910904171616t1fb3554asa27dfdd788a89a3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417232830.GC31693@tango.0pointer.de>
	<20090417233834.GB1177984@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <20090417234849.GA1068@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 17.04.09 18:38, Chris Adams (cmadams at hiwaay.net) wrote:

> 
> Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> said:
> > However, no daemon should ever touch files in /etc automatically. That
> > NM does that is pretty bad style. Instead resolv.conf should be
> > replaced by a symlink to /var and manipulated there.
> 
> /etc is by standard for system configuration files.  It is unreasonable
> to expect everything that needs to update system configuration to have
> to know to remount read-write / (or /etc or whatever).  Making a bunch
> of symlinks just to repoint configuration files out of the configuration
> directory would be stupid.

You are overerstimating how much software actually touches /etc.

And what you call 'stupid' is pretty common sense everywhere except on
Fedora as it seems.

You can do it on OpenSUSE:

http://en.opensuse.org/How-To_Make_the_root_filesystem_read-only

You can do it on Debian:

http://wiki.debian.org/ReadonlyRoot

You can do it on Gentoo:

http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/HOWTO_Read-only_root_filesystem

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 17 23:55:23 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:55:23 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <1239958968.3379.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1239958968.3379.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090417235523.GA1394@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 17.04.09 11:02, Christoph Wickert (christoph.wickert at googlemail.com) wrote:

> 
> Am Freitag, den 17.04.2009, 01:58 +0200 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
> 
> > And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
> > /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not. Much more useful it would be if
> > / in its entirety could be mounted ro.
> 
> How about /.autofsck and /.autorelabel?

What about it?

You can always remount things temporarily:

  mount / -o rw,remount
  touch /.autofsck
  mount / -o ro,remount

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 18 00:22:49 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:22:49 -0500
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240014169.20070.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 18:26 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > JACK should not be used by anything by default, with the exception of
> > audio production software.
> 
> The problem there is: where does "desktop software" stop and "audio
> production software" start? For example, Audacity (which thankfully
> supports PulseAudio these days, and BTW it also supports JACK) is used by
> many users who are not audio professionals, yet it is arguably also "audio
> production software" (though I guess real professionals will find it too
> newbieish ;-) ). It's set up for PulseAudio by default (and before that it
> was trying to use OSS by default - yuck!). A tool like qsynth is also an
> interesting example: that's a frontend for a MIDI software synthesizer. It
> can be used to just play MIDIs or it can be used for audio production.
> Right now its Fedora package is set up for JACK by default, though it can
> be set to use ALSA (and then works just fine with the PulseAudio ALSA
> plugin). What should those tools do? Try to autodetect what server is
> running? As long as we have mutually exclusive sound servers, there will
> probably always be tools which do the wrong thing by default. :-(

If the user hasn't set a preference, such as on the first run, use Jack
if it's running, otherwise fall back on Pulse, otherwise fall back on
ALSA. Easy. There should be a simple obvious UI (Not hidden in the !@#
$ing preferences) that clearly indicates the current output and allows
you to dynamically change the output if it chooses wrong, with a sticky
preference for the next time.
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From law at redhat.com  Sat Apr 18 00:43:44 2009
From: law at redhat.com (Jeff Law)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:43:44 -0600
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417232230.GA31693@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>	<gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090417231610.GA1177984@hiwaay.net>
	<20090417232230.GA31693@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49E92240.2040308@redhat.com>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 17.04.09 18:16, Chris Adams (cmadams at hiwaay.net) wrote:
>
>   
>> Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> said:
>>     
>>> Mounting /etc read-only makes no sense at all, config files are designed to
>>> be writable.
>>>       
>> Now, if initrd could handle /etc being on a separate filesystem, that
>> would be cool.  I might would leave /usr on / (mounted ro) if that were
>> the case (although that wouldn't help with the case I recently had where
>> /usr was corrupted but I still booted "emergency" mode to restore from
>> tape).
>>     
>
> It doesn't make sense to have /etc/ a seperate parition from /.
>
> A sensible design would be to have / as a whole should be ro. And then
> /home, /var, /tmp mounted rw.
>   
Then you need to deal with the variety of utilities that want to 
scribble in /etc.   I've successfully run systems where root was 
readonly and /etc was r/w via a union fs (/var, /tmp, /home were 
obviously different r/w filesystems).

jeff



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Sat Apr 18 01:26:18 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:26:18 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <m3iql34nfg.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<m3iql34nfg.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>
Message-ID: <49E92C3A.8060203@freenet.de>

Benny Amorsen wrote:
> Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> writes:
> 
>> Let's eliminate this source of errors and clean up our file system
>> layout a bit. Let's drop /usr for F12!
> 
> Fedora is traditionally very conservative when it comes to anything that
> involves file paths. Witness the "/sbin in the default PATH" flamewar,
> which would probably have been solved best by turning /sbin into an
> empty directory except for a bunch of symlinks. Instead Fedora (finally)
> went with what others do: add /sbin to the default PATH.
IMO, this decision is one these @RH decisions, where RH has demonstrated 
their willingness to run down Fedora.






From steven at scc.hk  Sat Apr 18 01:30:18 2009
From: steven at scc.hk (Steven James Drinnan)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:30:18 +0800
Subject: Revise Inclustion of IBUS by default - Re: Final Reminder: F11
 Features Not at 100% -
In-Reply-To: <49E806A2.1050100@redhat.com>
References: <49E806A2.1050100@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240018218.8561.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Re: IBUS

I am not sure if this is the right place. 

Like I have said previously please do not make IBUS default. I do not
believe it is mature enough. I.E Scim supports all the major input
methods such as Quick. 

It may have some benefits but its biggest drawback it the fact it does
not have a good range of input methods for traditional Chinese input.
(Chewing is only used in Taiwan)

Including this would be a major step back (esp for Hong Kong Residents).

Steven

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 21:33 -0700, John Poelstra wrote:
> Thanks for all your hard work to make these features a reality.  We just 
> need a little more information and one final update :)
> 
> Feature freeze has past and the following feature pages still need 
> updates.  Some have not been updated for several months.  All need to be 
> at 100% completion and their content set to reflect that.
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Ext4DefaultFs
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/gcc4.4
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/IntelKMS
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewTextUI
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NouveauModesetting
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MultiplePAMStacksInGDM
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PowerManagement
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/EFI
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/XserverOnePointSix
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Python_2.6
> 
> I'm forwarding these to FESCo for discussion at their meeting tomorrow. 
>   Please update your page before 12 PM EDT so that they do not need to 
> review it.
> 
> Thank you,
> John
> 
> p.s. All feature owners have been bcc'd on this message as well as the 
> previous reminder.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Fedora-devel-announce mailing list
> Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce
> 



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sat Apr 18 01:59:05 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:59:05 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org> <gs53ba$r3c$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <gsbc5a$eo3$1@ger.gmane.org>

I wrote:
> Well, actually it doesn't. It'll happily start up, but trying to actually
> play anything outputs... nothing. With no error message or anything, it
> just produces no sound, and AFAICT never actually connects to PulseAudio
> (even if I try explicitly setting the ALSA output device to default or
> pulse). The command-line fluidsynth is broken the same way. (This shows
> another issue with the current situation: some programs claim to support
> several APIs, but only one gets actually tested.) Well, at least there's
> timidity++ which actually works...

FYI, the issue there is just with the default settings: there is no
soundfont configured by default in QSynth or fluidsynth. (Thanks to Jon
Escombe for pointing this out.) When I configure one by hand (why do I have
to do this? Should it not be the packager's job to set up a default
soundfont?), it "works", for some definition of "working". After bumping up
the buffer size (with the default, I just get noise as output), it suffers
from horrible arhythmy, probably due to ALSA being used both on the
sequencer end and on the output end, I've seen the same happen with
timidity++ back when I was still using dmix (now with PulseAudio,
timidity++ uses libao which uses the native PulseAudio protocol, so this
issue is gone). Jon Escombe also pointed out that the latest fluidsynth
release has a native PulseAudio driver (but unfortunately it's not
available in Fedora yet), that one should work better.

But this is getting way off topic for this list.

        Kevin Kofler



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Sat Apr 18 02:26:18 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 04:26:18 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417232230.GA31693@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de>	<20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>	<gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090417231610.GA1177984@hiwaay.net>
	<20090417232230.GA31693@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49E93A4A.8020302@freenet.de>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 17.04.09 18:16, Chris Adams (cmadams at hiwaay.net) wrote:
> 
>> Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> said:
>>> Mounting /etc read-only makes no sense at all, config files are designed to
>>> be writable.
>> Now, if initrd could handle /etc being on a separate filesystem, that
>> would be cool.  I might would leave /usr on / (mounted ro) if that were
>> the case (although that wouldn't help with the case I recently had where
>> /usr was corrupted but I still booted "emergency" mode to restore from
>> tape).
> 
> It doesn't make sense to have /etc/ a seperate parition from /.

It does. Files below /etc carry machine-dependent configuration info.

=> Sharing /etc between several machines will only work if all machines 
are very similar (almost identical).

Ralf



From wtogami at redhat.com  Sat Apr 18 02:47:53 2009
From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:47:53 -0400
Subject: Revise Inclustion of IBUS by default - Re: Final Reminder: F11
 Features Not at 100% -
In-Reply-To: <1240018218.8561.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49E806A2.1050100@redhat.com>
	<1240018218.8561.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E93F59.1040805@redhat.com>

On 04/17/2009 09:30 PM, Steven James Drinnan wrote:
> Re: IBUS
>
> I am not sure if this is the right place.
>
> Like I have said previously please do not make IBUS default. I do not
> believe it is mature enough. I.E Scim supports all the major input
> methods such as Quick.
>
> It may have some benefits but its biggest drawback it the fact it does
> not have a good range of input methods for traditional Chinese input.
> (Chewing is only used in Taiwan)
>
> Including this would be a major step back (esp for Hong Kong Residents).
>
> Steven

A lot of work has gone into making ibus usable, although I am not 
familiar with Quick in particular.

You know, the entire SCIM collection still ships in Fedora 11.  You can 
easily switch to scim if you really want to use it.

Warren



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Sat Apr 18 02:53:26 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:53:26 -0400
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49E940A6.9080206@redhat.com>

On 04/17/2009 06:35 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11
> 
> The list from bill is a bit light.  I've re-ran my needed rebuild script
> and it is at http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html

Just to be clear,

spot: piggyback

is a false positive, because:

ExclusiveArch: sparcv9

I did point this out to you before. :)

~spot



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 02:56:05 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:56:05 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <gsbc5a$eo3$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org> 
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com> 
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org> <gs53ba$r3c$1@ger.gmane.org> 
	<gsbc5a$eo3$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e76492710904171956w62228b40k23b5e79a866f4166@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> I wrote:
>> Well, actually it doesn't. It'll happily start up, but trying to actually
>> play anything outputs... nothing. With no error message or anything, it
>> just produces no sound, and AFAICT never actually connects to PulseAudio
>> (even if I try explicitly setting the ALSA output device to default or
>> pulse). The command-line fluidsynth is broken the same way. (This shows
>> another issue with the current situation: some programs claim to support
>> several APIs, but only one gets actually tested.) Well, at least there's
>> timidity++ which actually works...
>
> FYI, the issue there is just with the default settings: there is no
> soundfont configured by default in QSynth or fluidsynth. (Thanks to Jon
> Escombe for pointing this out.) When I configure one by hand (why do I have
> to do this? Should it not be the packager's job to set up a default
> soundfont?), it "works", for some definition of "working". After bumping up
> the buffer size (with the default, I just get noise as output), it suffers
> from horrible arhythmy, probably due to ALSA being used both on the
> sequencer end and on the output end, I've seen the same happen with
> timidity++ back when I was still using dmix (now with PulseAudio,
> timidity++ uses libao which uses the native PulseAudio protocol, so this
> issue is gone). Jon Escombe also pointed out that the latest fluidsynth
> release has a native PulseAudio driver (but unfortunately it's not
> available in Fedora yet), that one should work better.
>
> But this is getting way off topic for this list.
>
> ? ? ? ?Kevin Kofler

I got comaintainership for QSynth just today and I'll look into this issue now.

Just a little more information about the soundfonts, although we are
really stretching it. The default soundfont is replaced in F-11. It
used to be PersonalCopy-Lite-soundfont, now it is fluid-soundfont-gm
which is probably the only really good free soundfont out there (here
gm stands for General Midi).

Moreover, the new soundfont package provides the virtual
"soundfont2-default". And this is what other packages should require.
If your application/library needs to hardcode a default soundfont
path, please use /usr/share/soundfonts/default.sf2, which is a symlink
that points to fluid-soundfont-gm.sf2.

We did it this way; in case the default soundfont changes again in the
future, there will be an easy transition.

Orcan



From dennis at ausil.us  Sat Apr 18 03:39:58 2009
From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:39:58 -0500
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <49E940A6.9080206@redhat.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E940A6.9080206@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200904172240.00232.dennis@ausil.us>

On Friday 17 April 2009 09:53:26 pm Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> On 04/17/2009 06:35 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> >> The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11
> >
> > The list from bill is a bit light.  I've re-ran my needed rebuild script
> > and it is at http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html
>
> Just to be clear,
>
> spot: piggyback
>
> is a false positive, because:
>
> ExclusiveArch: sparcv9
>
> I did point this out to you before. :)
>
> ~spot
ausil (9):
prtconf
silo
xorg-x11-drv-sunbw2
xorg-x11-drv-suncg14
xorg-x11-drv-suncg3
xorg-x11-drv-suncg6
xorg-x11-drv-sunffb
xorg-x11-drv-sunleo
xorg-x11-drv-suntcx

same deal with mine.  some of these have been rebuilt.  silo needs fixing and 
the unbuilt x modules i need to grab tarballs from git. where they have been 
fixed up to build against the current X server 

xorg-x11-drv-sunffb
xorg-x11-drv-sunleo
prtconf

have been buillt

Dennis



From alexl at users.sourceforge.net  Sat Apr 18 04:25:15 2009
From: alexl at users.sourceforge.net (Alex Lancaster)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:25:15 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Jesse Keating's
	message of "Fri\, 17 Apr 2009 15\:35\:55 -0700")
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <hz1vrqlhas.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>

>>>>> Jesse Keating  writes:

> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11

> The list from bill is a bit light.  I've re-ran my needed rebuild
> script and it is at
> http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html

I think I asked this question a while back, but didn't get an answer:

http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg00064.html

Can someone spell out what the consequences are (good, bad or ugly) if
these packages aren't rebuilt in time for F-11?  

Will they fail to install or somesuch?

Alex



From jkeating at redhat.com  Sat Apr 18 04:31:41 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:31:41 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <200904172240.00232.dennis@ausil.us>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49E940A6.9080206@redhat.com>  <200904172240.00232.dennis@ausil.us>
Message-ID: <1240029101.9867.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 22:39 -0500, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
> On Friday 17 April 2009 09:53:26 pm Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> > On 04/17/2009 06:35 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> > >> The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11
> > >
> > > The list from bill is a bit light.  I've re-ran my needed rebuild script
> > > and it is at http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html
> >
> > Just to be clear,
> >
> > spot: piggyback
> >
> > is a false positive, because:
> >
> > ExclusiveArch: sparcv9
> >
> > I did point this out to you before. :)
> >
> > ~spot
> ausil (9):
> prtconf
> silo
> xorg-x11-drv-sunbw2
> xorg-x11-drv-suncg14
> xorg-x11-drv-suncg3
> xorg-x11-drv-suncg6
> xorg-x11-drv-sunffb
> xorg-x11-drv-sunleo
> xorg-x11-drv-suntcx
> 
> same deal with mine.  some of these have been rebuilt.  silo needs fixing and 
> the unbuilt x modules i need to grab tarballs from git. where they have been 
> fixed up to build against the current X server 
> 
> xorg-x11-drv-sunffb
> xorg-x11-drv-sunleo
> prtconf
> 
> have been buillt
> 
> Dennis

Yes, I know my script picks up secondary arch packages.  Dennis said he
was going to work on a patch to avoid this (or check with the secondary
arch koji to see if it was built there maybe?) but you as the maintainer
can easily ignore it.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Sat Apr 18 04:32:53 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:32:53 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <hz1vrqlhas.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<hz1vrqlhas.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <1240029173.9867.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 21:25 -0700, Alex Lancaster wrote:
> >>>>> Jesse Keating  writes:
> 
> > On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> >> The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11
> 
> > The list from bill is a bit light.  I've re-ran my needed rebuild
> > script and it is at
> > http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html
> 
> I think I asked this question a while back, but didn't get an answer:
> 
> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg00064.html
> 
> Can someone spell out what the consequences are (good, bad or ugly) if
> these packages aren't rebuilt in time for F-11?  
> 
> Will they fail to install or somesuch?
> 
> Alex

They will install, and should function just fine.  However the first
time we have to do an update for them, things may go badly if it won't
clearly rebuild.  Also, it means that not all of our package set has the
sha256 checksum, which is a checkbox item.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Sat Apr 18 04:41:27 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:41:27 -0700
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417232445.GB31693@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<20090417125428.GC1322964@hiwaay.net> <gsb2ht$qsb$4@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090417232445.GB31693@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240029687.14173.39.camel@adam.local.net>

On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 01:24 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:

> I don't think the switch would be that complicated. The packagers
> could change --prefix=/usr to --prefix=/ in the spec files whenever
> they want. And when the last package is updated accordingly and a bit
> of time passed and /usr is empty it could be replaced by a symlink.

oh, yes, because EVERYTHING builds with autotools. *sigh*
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 06:04:56 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 02:04:56 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904171956w62228b40k23b5e79a866f4166@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org> 
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com> 
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org> <gs53ba$r3c$1@ger.gmane.org> 
	<gsbc5a$eo3$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904171956w62228b40k23b5e79a866f4166@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904172304j31348936gf77bc570642aa766@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Orcan Ogetbil  wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>
>> FYI, the issue there is just with the default settings: there is no
>> soundfont configured by default in QSynth or fluidsynth. (Thanks to Jon
>> Escombe for pointing this out.)
>>
>> ? ? ? ?Kevin Kofler
>
> I got comaintainership for QSynth just today and I'll look into this issue now.
>

Fixed and built for F-12, F-11, F-10, F-9. For the last two, I
couldn't add the update to the qt45 batch in bodhi. It says: "you
don't have commit access to kdemultimedia".

Anyhow, I'd be glad if someone with commit access could update the
batch with the following:

qsynth-0.3.3-6.fc9
qsynth-0.3.3-6.fc10

qjackctl-0.3.4-1.fc9
qjackctl-0.3.4-1.fc10

Please test the new qsynth defaults and let me know if anything is
wrong. The config files are stored in ~/.config/rncbc.org/

Cheers,
Orcan



From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com  Sat Apr 18 07:31:14 2009
From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:31:14 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417235523.GA1394@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1239958968.3379.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090417235523.GA1394@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240039874.3350.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Samstag, den 18.04.2009, 01:55 +0200 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
> On Fri, 17.04.09 11:02, Christoph Wickert (christoph.wickert at googlemail.com) wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Am Freitag, den 17.04.2009, 01:58 +0200 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
> > 
> > > And for the folks who think /usr is awesome because it allows mounting
> > > /usr ro while mounting / rw: it's not. Much more useful it would be if
> > > / in its entirety could be mounted ro.
> > 
> > How about /.autofsck and /.autorelabel?
> 
> What about it?
> 
> You can always remount things temporarily:

Yes, but as long as system-config-selinux and the initscripts don't do
this automatically, there is no such thing as an entirely ro /.

Regards,
Christoph



From jmorris at namei.org  Sat Apr 18 07:43:03 2009
From: jmorris at namei.org (James Morris)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:43:03 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Why is mozplugger still installed by default on F11 it conflicts
 with SELInux since it causes oofice to run as nsplugin_t
In-Reply-To: <49E89BBF.2070209@redhat.com>
References: <49E88D64.3030706@redhat.com> <49E89BBF.2070209@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0904181739060.15328@tundra.namei.org>

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009, Warren Togami wrote:

> On 04/17/2009 10:08 AM, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
> > There is certainly argument about the value of this package and it
> > breaks nsplugin/SELinux functionality.
> > 
> > A confined nsplugin is a nice feature for confining plugins downloaded
> > from the network. But if you run openoffice and evince from within
> > nsplugin they get confined, causing the apps to not work properly.
> > 
> 
> Removing mozplugger has been something I always do.  It seems to cause more
> problems than it solves. =(

Here are instructions on both removing mozplugger and restoring the 
security protections of SELinux.  Simply removing the package isn't 
enough:

http://james-morris.livejournal.com/39013.html

An issue we need to consider is how a package which breaks a security 
feature not only made it into the repo, but how it became enabled by 
default.


- James
-- 
James Morris
<jmorris at namei.org>



From bruno at wolff.to  Sat Apr 18 08:17:38 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:17:38 -0500
Subject: Why is mozplugger still installed by default on F11 it
	conflicts with SELInux since it causes oofice to run as nsplugin_t
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0904181739060.15328@tundra.namei.org>
References: <49E88D64.3030706@redhat.com> <49E89BBF.2070209@redhat.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.00.0904181739060.15328@tundra.namei.org>
Message-ID: <20090418081738.GA26367@wolff.to>

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 17:43:03 +1000,
  James Morris <jmorris at namei.org> wrote:
> 
> Here are instructions on both removing mozplugger and restoring the 
> security protections of SELinux.  Simply removing the package isn't 
> enough:
> 
> http://james-morris.livejournal.com/39013.html
> 
> An issue we need to consider is how a package which breaks a security 
> feature not only made it into the repo, but how it became enabled by 
> default.

There is some other brain damaged stuff going on with firefox and plugins.
See: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491543



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sat Apr 18 09:32:38 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:32:38 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org> <gs53ba$r3c$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<gsbc5a$eo3$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904171956w62228b40k23b5e79a866f4166@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904172304j31348936gf77bc570642aa766@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gsc6nm$sa8$1@ger.gmane.org>

Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> Anyhow, I'd be glad if someone with commit access could update the
> batch with the following:
> 
> qsynth-0.3.3-6.fc9
> qsynth-0.3.3-6.fc10
> 
> qjackctl-0.3.4-1.fc9
> qjackctl-0.3.4-1.fc10

I'll do that, thanks.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sat Apr 18 10:08:11 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:08:11 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<hz1vrqlhas.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1240029173.9867.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsc8qb$kf$1@ger.gmane.org>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> Also, it means that not all of our package set has the
> sha256 checksum, which is a checkbox item.

Speaking of that, can RPM itself be built with SHA256 now that F11 Beta is
out? IMHO it doesn't make sense to still support upgrades (directly) from
F11 Alpha.

        Kevin Kofler



From jussi.lehtola at iki.fi  Sat Apr 18 10:42:48 2009
From: jussi.lehtola at iki.fi (Jussi Lehtola)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:42:48 +0300
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
Message-ID: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hi,


there are currently 452 open Merge Reviews (out of 1009 open review bugs
in total) open in Bugzilla. I have taken over 20 merge reviews in the
past month or two. In the majority of cases, I haven't got any replies
to the reviews even though some time has passed.

A lot of the issues could be fixed in a minute or two in CVS; as I
understand provenpackagers are allowed to do these kinds of small fixes
after having announced it a few days in advance. Doing a review is of
little avail if the maintainer doesn't respond.

I hereby proclaim my candidacy to become provenpackager.
-- 
Jussi Lehtola
Fedora Project Contributor
jussilehtola at fedoraproject.org



From lemenkov at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 10:52:45 2009
From: lemenkov at gmail.com (Peter Lemenkov)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:52:45 +0400
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <adf480660904180352r3612430r67d22529dec88c7e@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/18 Jussi Lehtola <jussi.lehtola at iki.fi>:

> I hereby proclaim my candidacy to become provenpackager.

It doesn't help you to close all these tickets, because you cannot
simultaneously be both reviewer of package and package owner.
-- 
With best regards!



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 12:00:28 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:00:28 +0200
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <adf480660904180352r3612430r67d22529dec88c7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<adf480660904180352r3612430r67d22529dec88c7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090418140028.1945bdc1@faldor.intranet>

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:52:45 +0400, Peter wrote:

> 2009/4/18 Jussi Lehtola:
> 
> > I hereby proclaim my candidacy to become provenpackager.
> 
> It doesn't help you to close all these tickets, because you cannot
> simultaneously be both reviewer of package and package owner.

The provenpackager would not be the owner, but just the one who applies
fixes for issues that are found (or would be found) during the merge-review.



From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Sat Apr 18 13:12:53 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?iso-8859-15?q?Skytt=E4?=)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:12:53 +0300
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Wednesday 08 April 2009, Ville Skytt? wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Quite a few packages that produce *-debuginfo without sources have crept
> again in rawhide.  See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Debuginfo
> for possible reasons, the most usual of which in my (past, haven't checked
> this batch that closely) experience is failure to honor $RPM_OPT_FLAGS
> during build which can also mean that the default security related compiler
> flags aren't being applied either.

Unfortunately there hasn't been much movement in getting these fixed.  Updated 
list follows, after a while I'll file bugs for the remaining ones and/or 
excercise provenpackager rights in CVS but it'd be better if maintainers took 
care of these as appropriate before that.

-------------- next part --------------
Maintainer   Package                     Co-maintainers
----------------------------------------------------------------
aconway      rhm                         nsantos
alexlan      pvm                         (none)
amdunn       why                         (none)
athimm       mediawiki                   (none)
ausil        elftoaout                   pjones,spot,jima
awjb         multisync                   (none)
bjensen      colrdx                      sindrepb,sconklin,dp67
bonii        moe                         (none)
caolanm      sac                         (none)
ctyler       nled                        overholt
cweyl        perl-DBI-Dumper             perl-sig
cwickert     emelfm2                     (none)
dbhole       antlr                       (none)
dbhole       jakarta-commons-logging     overholt,kasal
dbhole       sinjdoc                     (none)
dcbw         csound                      pfj
dchen        libchewing                  i18n-team
dchen        tomoe-gtk                   i18n-team,ryo
deji         atlas                       deji
devrim       byaccj                      dbhole
devrim       postgresql-odbcng           (none)
devrim       regexp                      (none)
dledford     lam                         (none)
drepper      pfstools                    (none)
dwalluck     hamcrest                    (none)
dwheeler     zenon                       pertusus
fab          rfdump                      (none)
fab          timespan                    (none)
fnasser      gnu-getopt                  (none)
gemi         curry                       (none)
gemi         erlang                      (none)
gemi         GtkAda                      (none)
gemi         wings                       (none)
green        phasex                      (none)
guthrie      simplyhtml                  (none)
ianweller    csstidy                     (none)
ifoox        mysql-connector-java        (none)
itamarjp     balance                     (none)
ixs          ddrescue                    (none)
ixs          hevea                       (none)
jkeating     email2trac                  (none)
jmagne       esc                         (none)
jsafrane     freeipmi                    pknirsch
jsafrane     OpenIPMI                    pknirsch
jwrdegoede   elice                       (none)
jwrdegoede   lostlabyrinth               (none)
kasal        transfig                    pertusus
kdudka       curl                        (none)
konradm      genus2reduction             (none)
konradm      taginfo                     (none)
kvolny       vodovod                     (none)
langel       bouncycastle                langel,oget
laxathom     gammu                       (none)
limb         astromenace                 (none)
limb         planets                     mmahut
limb         wesnoth                     wtogami
linville     b43-fwcutter                (none)
makghosh     qps                         (none)
maxamillion  ifstatus                    (none)
maxamillion  ninvaders                   (none)
maxamillion  shed                        (none)
mbooth       brazil                      (none)
mmahut       nightfall                   astronomy-sig
mwringe      xerces-j2                   (none)
ovasik       star                        mildew
overholt     jython                      jmatthews
pcheung      avalon-logkit               (none)
pcheung      concurrent                  (none)
pcheung      jakarta-commons-httpclient  akurtakov
pfj          mono-debugger               (none)
pvrabec      sectool                     jhrozek,mildew
rishi        osmo                        (none)
rrankin      denemo                      (none)
sconklin     splat                       bjensen,dp67
sergiopr     blitz                       (none)
sindrepb     xdotool                     (none)
snecker      libflaim                    (none)
tanguy       gperiodic                   (none)
terjeros     simdock                     (none)
thias        gentoo                      (none)
twaugh       cups                        (none)
verdurin     gnomint                     (none)
wart         wormux                      (none)
wtogami      ldm                         toshio,pertusus,eharrison,ryan52
zprikryl     libtrash                    (none)
(orphan)     olpc-utils                  dcbw,johnp

From psmith at fedoraproject.org  Sat Apr 18 13:39:28 2009
From: psmith at fedoraproject.org (psmith)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:39:28 +0100
Subject: no /etc/acpi/events in F11?
In-Reply-To: <20090417205550.GA14333@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>
References: <49E8D8C6.1090008@fedoraproject.org>
	<20090417205550.GA14333@mother.fordon.pl.eu.org>
Message-ID: <49E9D810.2090706@fedoraproject.org>

Tomasz Torcz wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 08:30:14PM +0100, psmith wrote:
>   
>> i just noticed that there is no longer an /etc/acpi/events folder in F11, 
>> has this been totaly removed? as in f10 i use this to hook into acpi events 
>>  to change powersaving settings on my laptops. how would i go about doing 
>> this in f11?
>>     
>
>
>   I have this folder on F11, it is owned by acpid. Moreover, there were
> SELinux policy fixes for this folder recently, so it's not going away :)
>
>   Nevertheless, powersaving changes should better go to /etc/pm/
>
>   
hmm, time to file a bug i think

phil



From t.matsuu at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 13:47:26 2009
From: t.matsuu at gmail.com (MATSUURA Takanori)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:47:26 +0900
Subject: jemalloc.bug in xulrunner
Message-ID: <6f27515e0904180647g531e0ab1nd679821bfad0f749@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Would you be able to help?

Now, we cannot build xulrunner because of the bug 422960 at bmo.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=422960

I have prepared the patch
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=353655
and request for review.
But the reviewer said it's environment-specific.

I found an almost same patch in Fedora xulrunner package.  So I think
this patch is required for building xulrunner on Fedora x86_64 at
least.  But I don't know whether it's really environment-specific or
not.

Does anyone have the answer?


Thanks,
Takanori

P.S.
For users who want to enjoy the latest trunk of firefox/xulrunner, please visit
http://t-matsuu.sakura.ne.jp/install-memo/fc/
I provide SRPM packages.



From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net  Sat Apr 18 13:58:16 2009
From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:58:16 +0300
Subject: Deltarpm *not* ready for new RPM checksums (was Re: Ready for
	new RPM version?)
In-Reply-To: <1236707552.23703.8.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
References: <20090302114642.GA28035@suse.de>
	<1235994973.5534.8.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
	<20090302115828.GB28035@suse.de>
	<1235996948.5534.20.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
	<20090302132628.GB13642@suse.de>
	<1236624376.15147.37.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
	<20090310093344.GA21116@suse.de> <20090310133940.GA26494@suse.de>
	<1236706863.23703.5.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
	<1236707552.23703.8.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
Message-ID: <20090418135816.GA16403@victor.nirvana>

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 07:52:32PM +0200, Jonathan Dieter wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-03-10 at 19:41 +0200, Jonathan Dieter wrote:
> > Ok, I've been trying this, but how can we tell if the sequence is sha256
> > or md5 if we're *just* given the sequence (i.e. applydeltarpm -c -s
> > audit-libs-1.7.12-1.fc11-04548395de7d18795d88b32ea98897e90140 where it's
> > a sha256 sequence)?
> 
> Ok, I've got it.  We just check against md5 first, then sha256 if md5
> doesn't match.  It's not elegant, but it should work fine, especially
> since we're only checking for verification, *not* security.
> 
> Jonathan

Sorry for jumping in that late, but assuming a malicious deltarpm that
could fake a matching md5 sum to pass validation, wouldn't it get
applied and make that a security issue?
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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From abo at stacken.kth.se  Sat Apr 18 14:44:08 2009
From: abo at stacken.kth.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alexander_Bostr=F6m?=)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:44:08 +0200
Subject: Deltarpm *not* ready for new RPM checksums (was Re: Ready for
 new RPM version?)
In-Reply-To: <20090418135816.GA16403@victor.nirvana>
References: <20090302114642.GA28035@suse.de>	<1235994973.5534.8.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>	<20090302115828.GB28035@suse.de>	<1235996948.5534.20.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>	<20090302132628.GB13642@suse.de>	<1236624376.15147.37.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>	<20090310093344.GA21116@suse.de>
	<20090310133940.GA26494@suse.de>	<1236706863.23703.5.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>	<1236707552.23703.8.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
	<20090418135816.GA16403@victor.nirvana>
Message-ID: <49E9E738.3010001@stacken.kth.se>

Axel Thimm skrev:

> Sorry for jumping in that late, but assuming a malicious deltarpm that
> could fake a matching md5 sum to pass validation, wouldn't it get
> applied and make that a security issue?

I assume that deltarpms are (required to be) signed just like full rpms.

/abo



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sat Apr 18 14:45:25 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:45:25 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <1240014169.20070.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240014169.20070.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090418144525.GA20595@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 17.04.09 19:22, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 18:26 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > > JACK should not be used by anything by default, with the exception of
> > > audio production software.
> > 
> > The problem there is: where does "desktop software" stop and "audio
> > production software" start? For example, Audacity (which thankfully
> > supports PulseAudio these days, and BTW it also supports JACK) is used by
> > many users who are not audio professionals, yet it is arguably also "audio
> > production software" (though I guess real professionals will find it too
> > newbieish ;-) ). It's set up for PulseAudio by default (and before that it
> > was trying to use OSS by default - yuck!). A tool like qsynth is also an
> > interesting example: that's a frontend for a MIDI software synthesizer. It
> > can be used to just play MIDIs or it can be used for audio production.
> > Right now its Fedora package is set up for JACK by default, though it can
> > be set to use ALSA (and then works just fine with the PulseAudio ALSA
> > plugin). What should those tools do? Try to autodetect what server is
> > running? As long as we have mutually exclusive sound servers, there will
> > probably always be tools which do the wrong thing by default. :-(
> 
> If the user hasn't set a preference, such as on the first run, use Jack
> if it's running, otherwise fall back on Pulse, otherwise fall back on
> ALSA. Easy. There should be a simple obvious UI (Not hidden in the !@#
> $ing preferences) that clearly indicates the current output and allows
> you to dynamically change the output if it chooses wrong, with a sticky
> preference for the next time.

It's not that easy. There's autospawning of both PA and Jack. Hence
checking 'if it is running' doesn't really work.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From opensource at till.name  Sat Apr 18 14:56:33 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:56:33 +0200
Subject: Deltarpm *not* ready for new RPM checksums (was Re: Ready for
 new RPM version?)
In-Reply-To: <20090418135816.GA16403@victor.nirvana>
References: <20090302114642.GA28035@suse.de>
	<1236707552.23703.8.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
	<20090418135816.GA16403@victor.nirvana>
Message-ID: <200904181656.39043.opensource@till.name>

On Sa April 18 2009, Axel Thimm wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 07:52:32PM +0200, Jonathan Dieter wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-03-10 at 19:41 +0200, Jonathan Dieter wrote:
> > > Ok, I've been trying this, but how can we tell if the sequence is
> > > sha256 or md5 if we're *just* given the sequence (i.e. applydeltarpm -c
> > > -s audit-libs-1.7.12-1.fc11-04548395de7d18795d88b32ea98897e90140 where
> > > it's a sha256 sequence)?
> >
> > Ok, I've got it.  We just check against md5 first, then sha256 if md5
> > doesn't match.  It's not elegant, but it should work fine, especially
> > since we're only checking for verification, *not* security.
> >
> > Jonathan
>
> Sorry for jumping in that late, but assuming a malicious deltarpm that
> could fake a matching md5 sum to pass validation, wouldn't it get
> applied and make that a security issue?

This is what I know and hope is true: The deltarpm tools are only used to 
regenerate the original rpms instead of downloading then. Therefore they still 
need to pass all verification that yum or rpm do, e.g. checking the gpg 
signature. Therefore an attacker needs access to the signing keys to create a 
malicous deltarpm that has a real security impact.

Regards
Till

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From jdieter at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 15:49:45 2009
From: jdieter at gmail.com (Jonathan Dieter)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:49:45 +0300
Subject: Deltarpm *not* ready for new RPM checksums (was Re: Ready for
 new RPM version?)
In-Reply-To: <200904181656.39043.opensource@till.name>
References: <20090302114642.GA28035@suse.de>
	<1236707552.23703.8.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
	<20090418135816.GA16403@victor.nirvana>
	<200904181656.39043.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <1240069785.739.19.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>

On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 16:56 +0200, Till Maas wrote:
> This is what I know and hope is true: The deltarpm tools are only used to 
> regenerate the original rpms instead of downloading then. Therefore they still 
> need to pass all verification that yum or rpm do, e.g. checking the gpg 
> signature. Therefore an attacker needs access to the signing keys to create a 
> malicous deltarpm that has a real security impact.

Exactly.  The md5 checksum in the deltarpm functions as just that, a
checksum against accidental corruption.  The security check comes from
the gpg signature after the rpm has been regenerated.

Jonathan
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From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Sat Apr 18 15:54:20 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:54:20 -0400
Subject: VirtualBox guest additions prevent usage of kernel deltarpm
In-Reply-To: <1239992155.739.10.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
References: <49E8C5EA.20408@bwh.harvard.edu>
	<1239992155.739.10.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>
Message-ID: <49E9F7AC.8000502@bwh.harvard.edu>

Jonathan Dieter wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:09 -0400, Andre Robatino wrote:
>> When the VirtualBox guest additions are installed for a given kernel, 
>> this apparently modifies the files modules.alias.bin, modules.dep.bin, 
>> and modules.symbols.bin in the corresponding kernel package, so the 
>> kernel deltarpm can't be used, and the full kernel package must be 
>> downloaded.  Considering that this is a common situation, and that these 
>> files are much smaller than the entire kernel package, is there any way 
>> this can be worked around, so the drpm can be used?  (VirtualBox doesn't 
>> seem to have any utility for removing guest additions, so I haven't 
>> tried that.)
> 
> The easy way is to mark those files as %config.  Then deltarpm won't try
> to delta those particular files.
> 

Is this something that needs to be applied to the kernel package? 
Should I file a bug?

> Jonathan
> 
> P.S. It's not just VirtualBox.  If you use any kmods, I think you'll run
> into this.
> 

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From maxamillion at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 16:32:49 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:32:49 -0500
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904180931p6de065abo173b3cb21c583833@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<f12087800904180931p6de065abo173b3cb21c583833@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904180932j6642cedbx92801b9bee2323d6@mail.gmail.com>

I have no idea how I missed my name on the list when the email was
originally sent out but I will be sure to resolve both shed and ninvaders
today.

Sorry about that,
-Adam
(From my G1)

On Apr 18, 2009 8:13 AM, "Ville Skytt?" <ville.skytta at iki.fi> wrote:

On Wednesday 08 April 2009, Ville Skytt? wrote: > Hello, > > Quite a few
packages that produce *-deb...
Unfortunately there hasn't been much movement in getting these fixed.
 Updated
list follows, after a while I'll file bugs for the remaining ones and/or
excercise provenpackager rights in CVS but it'd be better if maintainers
took
care of these as appropriate before that.


Maintainer   Package                     Co-maintainers
----------------------------------------------------------------
aconway      rhm                         nsantos
alexlan      pvm                         (none)
amdunn       why                         (none)
athimm       mediawiki                   (none)
ausil        elftoaout                   pjones,spot,jima
awjb         multisync                   (none)
bjensen      colrdx                      sindrepb,sconklin,dp67
bonii        moe                         (none)
caolanm      sac                         (none)
ctyler       nled                        overholt
cweyl        perl-DBI-Dumper             perl-sig
cwickert     emelfm2                     (none)
dbhole       antlr                       (none)
dbhole       jakarta-commons-logging     overholt,kasal
dbhole       sinjdoc                     (none)
dcbw         csound                      pfj
dchen        libchewing                  i18n-team
dchen        tomoe-gtk                   i18n-team,ryo
deji         atlas                       deji
devrim       byaccj                      dbhole
devrim       postgresql-odbcng           (none)
devrim       regexp                      (none)
dledford     lam                         (none)
drepper      pfstools                    (none)
dwalluck     hamcrest                    (none)
dwheeler     zenon                       pertusus
fab          rfdump                      (none)
fab          timespan                    (none)
fnasser      gnu-getopt                  (none)
gemi         curry                       (none)
gemi         erlang                      (none)
gemi         GtkAda                      (none)
gemi         wings                       (none)
green        phasex                      (none)
guthrie      simplyhtml                  (none)
ianweller    csstidy                     (none)
ifoox        mysql-connector-java        (none)
itamarjp     balance                     (none)
ixs          ddrescue                    (none)
ixs          hevea                       (none)
jkeating     email2trac                  (none)
jmagne       esc                         (none)
jsafrane     freeipmi                    pknirsch
jsafrane     OpenIPMI                    pknirsch
jwrdegoede   elice                       (none)
jwrdegoede   lostlabyrinth               (none)
kasal        transfig                    pertusus
kdudka       curl                        (none)
konradm      genus2reduction             (none)
konradm      taginfo                     (none)
kvolny       vodovod                     (none)
langel       bouncycastle                langel,oget
laxathom     gammu                       (none)
limb         astromenace                 (none)
limb         planets                     mmahut
limb         wesnoth                     wtogami
linville     b43-fwcutter                (none)
makghosh     qps                         (none)
maxamillion  ifstatus                    (none)
maxamillion  ninvaders                   (none)
maxamillion  shed                        (none)
mbooth       brazil                      (none)
mmahut       nightfall                   astronomy-sig
mwringe      xerces-j2                   (none)
ovasik       star                        mildew
overholt     jython                      jmatthews
pcheung      avalon-logkit               (none)
pcheung      concurrent                  (none)
pcheung      jakarta-commons-httpclient  akurtakov
pfj          mono-debugger               (none)
pvrabec      sectool                     jhrozek,mildew
rishi        osmo                        (none)
rrankin      denemo                      (none)
sconklin     splat                       bjensen,dp67
sergiopr     blitz                       (none)
sindrepb     xdotool                     (none)
snecker      libflaim                    (none)
tanguy       gperiodic                   (none)
terjeros     simdock                     (none)
thias        gentoo                      (none)
twaugh       cups                        (none)
verdurin     gnomint                     (none)
wart         wormux                      (none)
wtogami      ldm                         toshio,pertusus,eharrison,ryan52
zprikryl     libtrash                    (none)
(orphan)     olpc-utils                  dcbw,johnp

--
fedora-devel-list mailing list
fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
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From chris.stone at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 17:18:45 2009
From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 10:18:45 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904171521o57d5373dxc869d46d59c276c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
	<6e24a8e80904171521o57d5373dxc869d46d59c276c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:
> If i'm right this is the second flame war about the DontZap "feature"...
> After reading roughly 100 posts (some quite interesting) in this flame
> war and some of the previous flame war i'm still not convinced that
> this new default for dontzap is the right one.

Probably close to 500 posts or so now, but the people receiving
kickbacks from Microsoft want you to think only one or two people are
against this change.



> The one -- and only -- reason that i see popping up all the time is
> emacs being stupid enough to have a ctr+alt+bs key binding in it as
> well.

There is an identical key binding in emacs which performs the same
operation which is ctrl-alt-` or something like this, there is a post
in one of the threads which mentions it.


>
> I would really like to see the reasoning behind this new default for
> dontzap.. i wonder if there is any reasoning behind it at all.

This is the key.  Not only will it be impossible to change, but the
reasoning for the change is being kept a tightly held secret.  Every
single thread on every mailing list (including x.org!) has about a 9
to 1 ratio of people against making the change versus people in favor
of it.  The decision was made by less than a handful of people on IRC
with no logs.


>
> The way i see it there are a few options to get past this issue.
> 1. (the red hat way) take it the way it is now or use another distribution
> 2. restore dontzap to it's "old" value.. it worked fine for many years
> so why change it if it isn't even broken
> 3. spam emacs for having a ctrl+alt+bs key binding and demand that
> they use some other key mix
>
> Option 1 is what RH will probably do because they are to stubborn to
> revert it even though the majority of the people will vote for the old
> behavior if they dare to keep a vote.

There will never be a vote, because a vote would overwhelmingly decide
to restore the original defaults.  For some reason, this cannot be
allowed to happen, and we have to be stuck with Microsoft like
defaults.


> Option 2 and 3 is what has to be done if you ask me and as long as it
> hasn't been done redhat should patch those packages and contact the
> ones that need to be contacted.

No, need to spam emacs, they already have made another key-binding, so
it's not an issue.  RH will not restore the defaults to sane values no
matter how vociferously the community complains.


>
> About how the decision was made to change DontZap. Xorg is a big
> package and millions of users (hundreds of distributions) use it
> because it's just the "(un)official" standard. now it's very strange
> to see how ONE person (or that's the idea that i get behind this
> change) is somehow allowed to make a decision for millions of people!
> That just seems wrong to me. Meritocracy shouldn't be allowed in a
> project that can potentially have a huge impact and if that is allowed
> they should probably be forked to a group that does listen to the
> users (must be Democracy!!). Or all switch to DirectFB. Xorg should
> only be allowed to IMPROVE xorg, to support more stuff and not to
> delete features (or at least not features that everyone will notice in
> a negative way if deleted) unless approved by the biggest
> distributions that use Xorg. (and those distributions should all have
> polls with the same questions to ask the user base).

It wont happen.  Microsoft is probably spending less than ten grand
paying off a few key developers to disable a feature by default.  This
is how the world works unfortunately.  If the community wants to
revert the default, they will have to come up with more money than
Microsoft is paying them to disable it.

So, how much is Microsoft paying you guys?  Anyone who has been
posting to this thread who has been receiving kickback money, please
let us know how much you are getting.



From mjg at redhat.com  Sat Apr 18 17:30:31 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:30:31 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
	<6e24a8e80904171521o57d5373dxc869d46d59c276c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090418173030.GA1981@srcf.ucam.org>

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 10:18:45AM -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:

> So, how much is Microsoft paying you guys?  Anyone who has been
> posting to this thread who has been receiving kickback money, please
> let us know how much you are getting.

I got a t-shirt and some cake, but I was working on Ubuntu at the time. 
They don't love me as much now I'm working for Red Hat :(

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 18 18:47:50 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:47:50 -0500
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <200904161153.47500.mhlavink@redhat.com>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904161153.47500.mhlavink@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240080470.3731.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 11:53 +0200, Michal Hlavinka wrote:
> I think packages requiring internet connection to work should be first on the 
> line (for example torrent clients). Lot of people use dvd for installation 
> because they have no/too slow internet connection. 

... And some of us use it for testing/system recovery. Which may involve
searching google for information and downloading packages direct from
koji. Thus I make much use of firefox and wget.

... though I can't imagine really needing a torrent client in a recovery
situation.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 18 19:04:13 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:04:13 -0500
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
	<20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240081453.3731.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 20:36 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> Jigdo is a usability disaster.  Our users have a hard enough time just
> getting a direct iso download and burning it successfully, to try and
> throw jigdo at them would be... painful.

I tried Jigdo once. Seemed pretty straightforward to me. Except for the
part where I wanted to pull files out of pre-existing .isos. Having to
loopback mount them is awkward and requires root. THAT part is a
disaster.

What jigdo really needs is it's own userspace ISO implementation. A
minimal implementation good enough to pull files out shouldn't be that
hard. Maybe gnome-vfs could be used...
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From mclasen at redhat.com  Sat Apr 18 19:15:03 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:15:03 -0400
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1240081453.3731.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
	<20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240081453.3731.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240082103.3636.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 14:04 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:

> 
> What jigdo really needs is it's own userspace ISO implementation. A
> minimal implementation good enough to pull files out shouldn't be that
> hard. Maybe gnome-vfs could be used...

gnome-vfs is obsolete. Its successor gvfs uses libarchive for accessing
iso files.



From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 18 19:23:23 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:23:23 -0500
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <20090418144525.GA20595@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240014169.20070.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090418144525.GA20595@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240082604.3731.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 16:45 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 17.04.09 19:22, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:
> > If the user hasn't set a preference, such as on the first run, use Jack
> > if it's running, otherwise fall back on Pulse, otherwise fall back on
> > ALSA. Easy. There should be a simple obvious UI (Not hidden in the !@#
> > $ing preferences) that clearly indicates the current output and allows
> > you to dynamically change the output if it chooses wrong, with a sticky
> > preference for the next time.
> 
> It's not that easy. There's autospawning of both PA and Jack. Hence
> checking 'if it is running' doesn't really work.

Why is Jack autospawning now? Bletch. Autospawn is mostly irrelevant. If
Pulse is autospawning properly, presumably the user wants to use it.

Jack is a bit different, presumably we'd want some kind of global (to
the user session) "I want to use Jack" preference. If it's not enabled,
don't touch Jack. And like I said, let the easy obvious UI allow the
user to sort things out.

Jack isn't dynamic last I checked, it likes to lock on to one and *only*
one device for it's lifetime. Making it a not so great candidate for
autospawning without being configured first. Its design goal of
super-low latency doesn't allow for multiple devices, as they aren't
going to be perfectly in sync unless they're specialized pro-gear.

So basically, Jack should not be used until a user checks an "Use Jack"
checkbox somewhere and picks a device to use.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 18 19:27:11 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:27:11 -0500
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1240082103.3636.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
	<20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240081453.3731.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240082103.3636.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240082831.3731.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 15:15 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 14:04 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> 
> > 
> > What jigdo really needs is it's own userspace ISO implementation. A
> > minimal implementation good enough to pull files out shouldn't be that
> > hard. Maybe gnome-vfs could be used...
> 
> gnome-vfs is obsolete. Its successor gvfs uses libarchive for accessing
> iso files.

It would be neat if they'd chose less easily confusible names for
totally different things. gvfs is obvious shorthand for gnome-vfs and
fails to differentiate the two.
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From alsadi at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 19:55:04 2009
From: alsadi at gmail.com (Muayyad AlSadi)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:55:04 +0300
Subject: please apply this upstream patch into kde
Message-ID: <385866f0904181255g7b3962a4n70461d10324144d7@mail.gmail.com>

hello,

could you please apply this upstream patch (committed  today into svn)
http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/KDE/kdebase/workspace/plasma/applets/kickoff/ui/launcher.cpp?r1=950287&r2=955865&pathrev=955865&view=patch

with patch -p4

for details

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165100

can we do that for F10 and F11 ?

the upstream promised to release it next 4.2.x release and of course in 4.3.0



From markg85 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 20:07:18 2009
From: markg85 at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:07:18 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
	<6e24a8e80904171521o57d5373dxc869d46d59c276c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6e24a8e80904181307p64277d2bm8e4befd81d78c113@mail.gmail.com>

> So, how much is Microsoft paying you guys? ?Anyone who has been
> posting to this thread who has been receiving kickback money, please
> let us know how much you are getting.

You're going a little paranoid now i think.
Also if you want to get it back the old way (like i do) you don't need
to pay X.org 1 cent. Just fork it but think of the consequences if you
do. X.org is huge.

I really wonder why this change isn't reverted yet.. there are so many
opposed to this new dontzap default that some Xorg devs just don't
seem or want to listen.
O and btw i had my first Xorg dontzap issue as well. luckily a CTRL +
ALT + F# followed by a killall appname solved it and x worked fine
again.



From gmaxwell at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 22:43:02 2009
From: gmaxwell at gmail.com (Gregory Maxwell)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:43:02 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904181307p64277d2bm8e4befd81d78c113@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
	<6e24a8e80904171521o57d5373dxc869d46d59c276c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904181307p64277d2bm8e4befd81d78c113@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e692861c0904181543w69b1be19p4273112fd7293a8e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> So, how much is Microsoft paying you guys? ?Anyone who has been
>> posting to this thread who has been receiving kickback money, please
>> let us know how much you are getting.
>
> You're going a little paranoid now i think.
> Also if you want to get it back the old way (like i do) you don't need
> to pay X.org 1 cent. Just fork it but think of the consequences if you
> do. X.org is huge.
>
> I really wonder why this change isn't reverted yet.. there are so many
> opposed to this new dontzap default that some Xorg devs just don't
> seem or want to listen.
> O and btw i had my first Xorg dontzap issue as well. luckily a CTRL +
> ALT + F# followed by a killall appname solved it and x worked fine
> again.

Increasingly the change sounds like a good idea just for the
increasing motivation it will create to fix broken issues with X.

X shouldn't be freezing and the causes of X freezes can be fixed. Yet
people will continue to mistakenly hit ctrl-alt-bs even if the
software is made perfect.  Yes, I think this is an unimportant change,
but that doesn't mean that I don't also agree with it.

I'm sorry, people in this thread have talked about "windows
mentality", but I think the real example of windows mentality is
having a "crash" button on your keyboard because your system sometimes
freezes.

Shall we add a wipe-dotfiles button next because sometimes they become
corrupted and the desktop environment no longer lets you log in?



From rdieter at math.unl.edu  Sat Apr 18 23:26:46 2009
From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:26:46 -0500
Subject: please apply this upstream patch into kde
References: <385866f0904181255g7b3962a4n70461d10324144d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gsdnjn$k1a$1@ger.gmane.org>

Muayyad AlSadi wrote:

> hello,
> 
> could you please apply this upstream patch (committed  today into svn)
> 
http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/KDE/kdebase/workspace/plasma/applets/kickoff/ui/launcher.cpp?r1=950287&r2=955865&pathrev=955865&view=patch
> 
> with patch -p4
> 
> for details
> 
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165100

Mind opening a bug in our bugzilla... I'm unfamiliar with the issue, so 
please also help us provide justification for breaking the f11 development 
freeze here.

-- Rex





From pemboa at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 00:13:47 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 19:13:47 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <e692861c0904181543w69b1be19p4273112fd7293a8e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
	<6e24a8e80904171521o57d5373dxc869d46d59c276c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904181307p64277d2bm8e4befd81d78c113@mail.gmail.com>
	<e692861c0904181543w69b1be19p4273112fd7293a8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904181713v2ca0ddd2wd61a59d8492891a3@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> So, how much is Microsoft paying you guys? ?Anyone who has been
>>> posting to this thread who has been receiving kickback money, please
>>> let us know how much you are getting.
>>
>> You're going a little paranoid now i think.
>> Also if you want to get it back the old way (like i do) you don't need
>> to pay X.org 1 cent. Just fork it but think of the consequences if you
>> do. X.org is huge.
>>
>> I really wonder why this change isn't reverted yet.. there are so many
>> opposed to this new dontzap default that some Xorg devs just don't
>> seem or want to listen.
>> O and btw i had my first Xorg dontzap issue as well. luckily a CTRL +
>> ALT + F# followed by a killall appname solved it and x worked fine
>> again.
>
> Increasingly the change sounds like a good idea just for the
> increasing motivation it will create to fix broken issues with X.
>
> X shouldn't be freezing and the causes of X freezes can be fixed. Yet
> people will continue to mistakenly hit ctrl-alt-bs even if the
> software is made perfect. ?Yes, I think this is an unimportant change,
> but that doesn't mean that I don't also agree with it.
>
> I'm sorry, people in this thread have talked about "windows
> mentality", but I think the real example of windows mentality is
> having a "crash" button on your keyboard because your system sometimes
> freezes.
>
> Shall we add a wipe-dotfiles button next because sometimes they become
> corrupted and the desktop environment no longer lets you log in?


Windows doesn't have a crash button. I'm not sure why you think having
a button that will aid you in the event of a crash is a bad thing.
However, I think you should have the choice to remove it, while is
there by default for everyone else. Because in the event of a crash,
you can choose not to use it, but I can't install it during the crash
just so that I can then use it.

And I'm not sure what would be wrong with a tool that intelligently
moved dot files if it allowed a non expert user to login and get
assistance.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com  Sun Apr 19 01:20:23 2009
From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 03:20:23 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240104023.3343.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Freitag, den 17.04.2009, 15:35 -0700 schrieb Jesse Keating:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> > The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11
> 
> The list from bill is a bit light.  I've re-ran my needed rebuild script
> and it is at http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html

Your list is a little fat. It includes packages that were reviewed two
days ago and in fact *have* been build, for example:
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/packageinfo?packageID=griffith
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/packageinfo?packageID=nssbackup

Is there anything left to do for them?

Regards,
Christoph



From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com  Sun Apr 19 01:48:56 2009
From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 03:48:56 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240105736.3343.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Freitag, den 17.04.2009, 15:35 -0700 schrieb Jesse Keating:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> > The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11
> 
> The list from bill is a bit light.  I've re-ran my needed rebuild script
> and it is at http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html

cwickert (1):
xfce4-battery-plugin

Fixed, was only a patch that was accidentally dropped.

Christoph



From t.matsuu at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 02:38:32 2009
From: t.matsuu at gmail.com (MATSUURA Takanori)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:38:32 +0900
Subject: jemalloc.bug in xulrunner
In-Reply-To: <6f27515e0904180647g531e0ab1nd679821bfad0f749@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6f27515e0904180647g531e0ab1nd679821bfad0f749@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f27515e0904181938k4382057ei1196981795da86ba@mail.gmail.com>

I now understand the patch is required for compiling with
"-fstack-protector" option.
Sorry for the spam.


Takanori


2009/4/18 MATSUURA Takanori <t.matsuu at gmail.com>:
> Hi all,
>
> Would you be able to help?
>
> Now, we cannot build xulrunner because of the bug 422960 at bmo.
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=422960
>
> I have prepared the patch
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=353655
> and request for review.
> But the reviewer said it's environment-specific.
>
> I found an almost same patch in Fedora xulrunner package. ?So I think
> this patch is required for building xulrunner on Fedora x86_64 at
> least. ?But I don't know whether it's really environment-specific or
> not.
>
> Does anyone have the answer?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Takanori
>
> P.S.
> For users who want to enjoy the latest trunk of firefox/xulrunner, please visit
> http://t-matsuu.sakura.ne.jp/install-memo/fc/
> I provide SRPM packages.
>



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 03:54:31 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 09:24:31 +0530
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904182054t1564b040xd3139c126f2d2706@mail.gmail.com>

I am sure rpmlint used to indicate when debuginfos were empty. eg., in
the past one package was using 'install -s' and rpmlint complained
about an empty debuginfo. However right now this is not so.

[rishi at ginger x86_64]$ rpmlint osmo-debuginfo-0.2.4-5.fc11.x86_64.rpm
1 packages and 0 specfiles checked; 0 errors, 0 warnings.
[rishi at ginger x86_64]$ rpm --list -qp osmo-debuginfo-0.2.4-5.fc11.x86_64.rpm
/usr/lib/debug
/usr/lib/debug/.build-id
/usr/lib/debug/.build-id/97
/usr/lib/debug/.build-id/97/8fa669630401596774b8c60d2ed8e857becc26
/usr/lib/debug/.build-id/97/8fa669630401596774b8c60d2ed8e857becc26.debug
/usr/lib/debug/usr
/usr/lib/debug/usr/bin
/usr/lib/debug/usr/bin/osmo.debug
[rishi at ginger x86_64]$ rpm -q rpmlint
rpmlint-0.87-1.fc10.noarch
[rishi at ginger x86_64]$

Cheers,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From anders at trudheim.co.uk  Sun Apr 19 06:52:45 2009
From: anders at trudheim.co.uk (Anders Rayner-Karlsson)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:52:45 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
	<6e24a8e80904171521o57d5373dxc869d46d59c276c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090419065245.GA2058@iota.trudheim.co.uk>

* Christopher Stone <chris.stone at gmail.com> [20090418 22:47]:
[snip]
> It wont happen.  Microsoft is probably spending less than ten grand
> paying off a few key developers to disable a feature by default.  This
> is how the world works unfortunately.  If the community wants to
> revert the default, they will have to come up with more money than
> Microsoft is paying them to disable it.
> 
> So, how much is Microsoft paying you guys?  Anyone who has been
> posting to this thread who has been receiving kickback money, please
> let us know how much you are getting.
> 

This is getting dargerously close to libel, and certainly is in the
realm of slander. Both are criminal offenses. Please have a think
about the ramifications and the consequenses of what you say. Just
because it is a mailing list, you are not somehow excluded from the
law.

-- 
Anders



From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Sun Apr 19 06:57:08 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?iso-8859-1?q?Skytt=E4?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 09:57:08 +0300
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0904182054t1564b040xd3139c126f2d2706@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904182054t1564b040xd3139c126f2d2706@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904190957.10529.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Sunday 19 April 2009, Debarshi Ray wrote:
> I am sure rpmlint used to indicate when debuginfos were empty.

It did, and it still does.  But this package is not empty:

> [rishi at ginger x86_64]$ rpm --list -qp
> osmo-debuginfo-0.2.4-5.fc11.x86_64.rpm /usr/lib/debug
> /usr/lib/debug/.build-id
> /usr/lib/debug/.build-id/97
> /usr/lib/debug/.build-id/97/8fa669630401596774b8c60d2ed8e857becc26
> /usr/lib/debug/.build-id/97/8fa669630401596774b8c60d2ed8e857becc26.debug
> /usr/lib/debug/usr
> /usr/lib/debug/usr/bin
> /usr/lib/debug/usr/bin/osmo.debug

On the other hand, as mentioned in my first mail about these a week or so ago, 
catching the above case (debuginfo with no sources) was only recently 
implemented upstream, there's no release out with it yet:
http://rpmlint.zarb.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/changeset/1581



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 07:22:13 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:52:13 +0530
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904190022v4ec3f488m21b1c4ab438246e3@mail.gmail.com>

> bonii ? ? ? ?moe ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (none)

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496436

Cheers,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From martin.sourada at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 08:26:25 2009
From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:26:25 +0200
Subject: PackageKit and Presto
Message-ID: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>

Hi,

Fedora 11 is probably going to see two great improvements to our updates
system - the PackageKit one makes the updates much more verbose and the
Presto one saves a lot of bandwith. The problem is that PackageKit does
not know about presto and thus showing download progress for Presto
enabled repos is broken. Yesterday I was waiting about 10 minutes before
anything other than "Downloading packages" appeared and even then,
packages fetched via Presto weren't marked as downloaded. 

So I though I'd ask. Is anyone working on this? Should I expect it to be
working at F11 GA?

PS: The new PackageKit update interface rocks :-)

Thanks,
Martin
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From drago01 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 08:50:18 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:50:18 +0200
Subject: PackageKit and Presto
In-Reply-To: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
References: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904190150g3e305684h4f46f5cf03e55399@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Martin Sourada
<martin.sourada at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Fedora 11 is probably going to see two great improvements to our updates
> system - the PackageKit one makes the updates much more verbose and the
> Presto one saves a lot of bandwith. The problem is that PackageKit does
> not know about presto and thus showing download progress for Presto
> enabled repos is broken. Yesterday I was waiting about 10 minutes before
> anything other than "Downloading packages" appeared and even then,
> packages fetched via Presto weren't marked as downloaded.
>
> So I though I'd ask. Is anyone working on this? Should I expect it to be
> working at F11 GA?

If presto is going to be enabled by default this must be fixed before
GA, please file a bug and mark it as blocker.



From martin.sourada at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 09:31:06 2009
From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:31:06 +0200
Subject: PackageKit and Presto
In-Reply-To: <f6ca9fed0904190150g3e305684h4f46f5cf03e55399@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
	<f6ca9fed0904190150g3e305684h4f46f5cf03e55399@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240133466.3089.8.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>

On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 10:50 +0200, drago01 wrote:
> If presto is going to be enabled by default this must be fixed before
> GA, please file a bug and mark it as blocker.
> 
Done:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496445

Martin
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From peter.hutterer at who-t.net  Sun Apr 19 10:54:52 2009
From: peter.hutterer at who-t.net (Peter Hutterer)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:54:52 +1000
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E8DB82.2010808@homer.se>
References: <1239820584.4354.100.camel@adam.local.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904151448480.12079@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239821943.4354.102.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E6EDCD.5060001@homer.se>
	<1239896079.4354.131.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49E77919.5020704@homer.se> <gsaio2$cee$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49E8D301.9010209@homer.se> <20090417192559.GA19828@srcf.ucam.org>
	<49E8DB82.2010808@homer.se>
Message-ID: <20090419105451.GC19874@dingo>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 09:41:54PM +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> On 04/17/2009 09:25 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
>> ctrl+alt+del has no special status within X. It's simply a keybinding  
>> that can be grabbed by the desktop and used to display something.  
>> ctrl+alt+bs now has an identical status.
>
> OK, but it (ctrl-alt-backspace) is not supposed to be grabbed by the  
> desktop to display something (by default), is that correct? At least as  
> things are at the moment? Have I gotten this right?

Clients can grab the shortcut. If zapping is enabled though, the server zaps
before the client gets the event and regardless of an client holding the grab.

So there's no reason why the DE couldn't pop up a dialog box in the order
"This shortcut zap the server. Do you want to permanently enable zapping?"
I guess this would be handy for those that prefer zapping instead of hitting
log out (and I am quite guilty of said behaviour myself)

Maybe we could make this more user-friendly by adding a talking paperclip too.

Cheers,
  Peter



From peter.hutterer at who-t.net  Sun Apr 19 11:07:19 2009
From: peter.hutterer at who-t.net (Peter Hutterer)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 21:07:19 +1000
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
References: <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
Message-ID: <20090419110719.GD19874@dingo>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:29:02PM +0200, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> On 04/17/2009 10:32 PM, Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
>> * Lars E. Pettersson <lars at homer.se> [20090417 21:37]:
>>> How often does people actually accidentally press ctrl-alt-backspace? 
>>> I  have *never* done it.
>>
>> By same argument, taking a rather tongue in cheek attitude, how often
>> does countries with nuclear ICBM's launch them by accident?
>
> It is not argument as such. If the decision has been made to remove this  
> functionality, the decision has to be based on something. In this case  
> it seem to be based on that people accidentally can press this  
> key-stroke combination and loose data. If this is the case, it is  
> important to know how often this actually happens.
>
> If you look at real life. In our kitchens we have knifes. You can  
> accidentally injure yourself quite badly with a knife. Should we just  
> because of this zap all knife blades to make them safe?

no, but most people keep them in a knife block and not in the same drawer as
ladles, stirring spoons and whatnot.

> I.e. we have made a decision that knifes are good to have, accidents do  
> happen, but the benefit from having knifes are greater than the  
> consequences of the accidents that can happen. So we keep our knifes.

and by moving the kives to a separate place we may have saved a few fingers
over the history.

Also, it's important here that we're not talking about the butter knives where
you can't hurt yourself unless you swallow them as a three-year old (like
VT-switching, easy to recover). we're talking about the really sharp cooking
knives, the onces where you don't know you cut yourself until you hear the
scraping on the bone.

also, I think this knife analogy is stretching things a bit, but I like
cooking (and it beats debugging grabs anytime), so we can continue :)

> This analogy converted to this discussion says that OK some, a few, may  
> accidentally press ctrl-alt-backspace, but at the same time this  
> particular key-stroke is very handy under those circumstances when X  
> behaves badly. By removing the functionality you also adds another cost,  
> the cost of extra data loss and other problems, i.e. with file systems,  
> as user, when ctrl-alt-backspace does not work, finally will press the  
> reset button or power cycle their computer. As I see it the benefit from  
> having ctrl-alt-backspace is greater than the cost of a few loosing data.
>
> I.e. how often this problem happens, people accidentally pressing  
> ctrl-alt-backspace, is a valid question in this discussion. Does it  
> happen more often than X crashes? Or less? This is an important  
> parameter in the decision to keep, or not keep, the functionality.
>
>> While you certainly can present an argument based on that you have
>> _never_ done this by accident, I'd like to point you at
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance for reasons why
>> this is, IMHO, not a sustainable platform to argue from.
>
> Sigh! I just mentioned that *I* had never accidentally pressed this key  
> combination during all those years that I have been using Linux, and  
> therefore find it strange that this has become such a big issue that  
> some wants to remove this functionality. It was *NOT* ment to be a  
> platform to argue from, such an argument would be plainly stupid. If I  
> during all my years have never accidentally pressed this combination,  
> how often does it happen to others? I.e. for me X crashes have happened  
> way more often then me accidentally pressing ctrl-alt-backspace. How is  
> it for others?

fwiw, about once a week or so for me (I have a lot of shortcuts on ctrl+alt).

btw, it's quite interesting to look at the key press/release events as you're
typing you'll notice that often you're typing multiple letter before releasing
the first.

Cheers,
  Peter



From lsof at nodata.co.uk  Sun Apr 19 11:28:47 2009
From: lsof at nodata.co.uk (nodata)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:28:47 +0200
Subject: dot on end of permissions - something new?
Message-ID: <1240140527.11955.1.camel@prague>

Hello,

# ls -lad /root
drwxr-x---. 35 root root 4096 19. Apr 11:11 /root/

???------^^^

What does this dot mean?

nd



From mike at miketc.net  Sun Apr 19 12:15:02 2009
From: mike at miketc.net (Mike Chambers)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:15:02 -0500
Subject: evolution junk mail doesn't go to junk folder right away
Message-ID: <1240143302.8967.20.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>

Wanted to see if it was just me or if anyone else was having this
problem.  And one thing wanted to add, is I always restore a previous
outlook profile (using the backup/restore methods of evo) when I do
fresh install.

Anyway, the problem I see is, if I have a single email in my inbox, and
I hit the junk button, it doesn't go away right then and there.
Actually not sure if it even goes away at all if I just waited.  I
usually have to click on another folder, go back and click on the inbox
to see if it's gone.  And even at that, most of the time I have a
message bout the email not being able to be viewed/read or whatever, and
have to click on another folder and inbox again to see it gone.  But
with multiple emails, if you junk them, they go away.  It's just the
last one that causes the problem.  And I swear I have seen this before,
just can't remember how long ago.

Anyone else?

-- 
Mike Chambers
Madisonville, KY

Fedora Project - Bugzapper, Tester, User, etc..
miketc302 at fedoraproject.org



From thuforuk at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Apr 19 14:21:48 2009
From: thuforuk at yahoo.co.uk (Dariusz J. Garbowski)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:21:48 -0600
Subject: dot on end of permissions - something new?
In-Reply-To: <1240140527.11955.1.camel@prague>
References: <1240140527.11955.1.camel@prague>
Message-ID: <49EB337C.60308@yahoo.co.uk>

On 04/19/2009 05:28 AM, nodata wrote:
> Hello,
>
> # ls -lad /root
> drwxr-x---. 35 root root 4096 19. Apr 11:11 /root/
>
> ???------^^^
>
> What does this dot mean?
>
> nd
>   


http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.testers/68449/focus=68473

		
___________________________________________________________ 
Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html



From aaronngray.lists at googlemail.com  Sun Apr 19 14:37:46 2009
From: aaronngray.lists at googlemail.com (Aaron Gray)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:37:46 +0100
Subject: F10 git remote push failing
Message-ID: <952BD8B7FC0C4AAABC8731C10F7323F1@HPLAPTOP>

F10 git is failing to do a remote push :-

[root@*** hello-world]# git push git://git.***/hello-world
Counting objects: 4, done.
Compressing objects: 100% (3/3), done.
Writing objects: 100% (3/3), 535 bytes, done.
Total 3 (delta 1), reused 0 (delta 0)
error: unpack failed: unpacker exited with error code
To git://git.cybercomms.org/hello-world
 ! [remote rejected] master -> master (n/a (unpacker error))
error: failed to push some refs to 'git://git.***/hello-world'

messages :-

Apr 19 15:10:43 *** xinetd[29002]: START: git pid=30384 from=::ffff:192.168.0.1
Apr 19 15:10:43 *** git-daemon: [30384] Connection from 192.168.0.1:40205
Apr 19 15:10:43 *** git-daemon: [30384] Extended attributes (25 bytes) exist <host=git.***>
Apr 19 15:10:44 *** git-daemon: [30384] Request receive-pack for '/hello-world'
Apr 19 15:10:44 *** xinetd[29002]: EXIT: git status=0 pid=30384 duration=1(sec)

a 'git push /pub/git/hello-world' works fine though.

I have reported this to the git mailing list too.

Aaron
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From john.brown009 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 14:43:31 2009
From: john.brown009 at gmail.com (TK009)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:43:31 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090419065245.GA2058@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
References: <1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>	<6e24a8e80904171521o57d5373dxc869d46d59c276c2@mail.gmail.com>	<d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090419065245.GA2058@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
Message-ID: <49EB3893.8070208@gmail.com>

Anders Rayner-Karlsson wrote:
> * Christopher Stone <chris.stone at gmail.com> [20090418 22:47]:
> [snip]
>   
>> It wont happen.  Microsoft is probably spending less than ten grand
>> paying off a few key developers to disable a feature by default.  This
>> is how the world works unfortunately.  If the community wants to
>> revert the default, they will have to come up with more money than
>> Microsoft is paying them to disable it.
>>
>> So, how much is Microsoft paying you guys?  Anyone who has been
>> posting to this thread who has been receiving kickback money, please
>> let us know how much you are getting.
>>
>>     
>
> This is getting dargerously close to libel, and certainly is in the
> realm of slander. Both are criminal offenses. Please have a think
> about the ramifications and the consequenses of what you say. Just
> because it is a mailing list, you are not somehow excluded from the
> law.
>
>   
thank you mr. laywer for pointing that out to all of us, it was funny to 
read tho =)



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr 19 15:08:30 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:08:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090419 changes
Message-ID: <20090419150830.C86941B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Sun Apr 19 06:15:08 UTC 2009

New package jsl
        Check JavaScript code for common mistakes
New package ogmtools
        Tools for Ogg media streams
New package perl-HTML-Prototype
        Generate HTML and Javascript for the Prototype library
New package pyxmlsec
        Python bindings for the XML Security Library
New package sems
        SIP Express Media Server, an extensible SIP media server
Removed package salinfo
Updated Packages:

DeviceKit-disks-004-0.10.20090415git.fc11
-----------------------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 David Zeuthen <davidz at redhat.com> - 004-0.10.20090415git.fc11
- Properly detect vfat on whole disk devices (#495876)


R-2.9.0-1.fc11
--------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 2.9.0-1
- update to 2.9.0, change vim dep to vi


anaconda-11.5.0.46-1.fc11
-------------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 11.5.0.46-1
- Clean up argument list after changing from rhpl to iutil for
  execWithRedirect (jkeating)
- Fix NameError traceback setting up bootloader in EFI installs (wwoods)
- No longer force ISOs to be on ext2, ext3, or vfat partitions. (clumens)
- Sending translation for German (ckpinguin)
- Split text mode exn saving into multiple screren (#469380). (clumens)
- Copy /tmp/program.log to /mnt/sysimage/var/log/. (clumens)
- Fix member preselection in raid UI. (rvykydal)
- Fix editing of raid device (persistence of level choice) (#496159)
  (rvykydal)
- Fix ks --useexisting and --noformat options of logvol and volgroup
  (rvykydal)
- Make sure inconsistencies dont screw us up. (jgranado)
- Re-implement the inconsistency functionality. (jgranado)
- Allow the use of "-" in the lvm names. (495329) (jgranado)
- Make sure we "insist" on mdadm commands. (491729) (jgranado)
- [PATCH] Possible fix for some encryption related bugs during the Custom
  Layout editation (#495848) (msivak)


createrepo-0.9.7-6.fc11
-----------------------
* Sat Apr 18 2009 James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.7-6
- add patch to fix size limit

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Seth Vidal <skvidal at fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.7-5
- add patch to make sure deltarpm creation doesn't obliterate our compose boxes


cups-1.4-0.b2.14.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Tim Waugh <twaugh at redhat.com> 1:1.4-0.b2.14
- Applied patch to fix CVE-2009-0163 (bug #490596).
- Applied patch to fix CVE-2009-0164 (bug #490597).


fedora-logos-11.0.1-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 11.0.1-1
- fix bootsplash to be less psychadelic


ibus-1.1.0.20090417-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Huang Peng <shawn.p.huang at gmail.com> - 1.1.0.20090413-4
- Update ibus-HEAD.patch.
- Next Engine hotkey will do nothing if the IM is not active.

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Huang Peng <shawn.p.huang at gmail.com> - 1.1.0.20090417-1
- Update to ibus-1.1.0.20090417.
- Fix bug 496199 -  cannot remove Ctrl+Space hotkey with ibus-setup


kdebase-runtime-4.2.2-4.fc11
----------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2.2-4
- fix persistent systray notifications


kernel-2.6.29.1-100.fc11
------------------------
* Sat Apr 18 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- Set CONFIG_UEVENT_HELPER_PATH to the empty string (#496296)

* Sat Apr 18 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com>
- Build in the rfkill and rfkill-input modules (F10#485322)

* Sat Apr 18 2009 Kyle McMartin <kyle at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-100
- pat-remove-page-granularity-tracking-for-vm_insert_pfn_maps.patch:
   Fix the spew of "Xorg:3254 freeing invalid memtype" messages.

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com>
- drop ajax patch I rolled it in

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com>
- radeon drm: fix oops in LUT loading

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-92
- drm modesetting: force mode switch when connectors change

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-93
- drm modesetting: friday patch, missed a git add

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-94
- drm-next.patch: backport fix to drm-next

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-95
- nouveau: fix powerpc build

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-97
- drm-intel-tiled-front.patch: Enable tiled front buffer on gen4


kpackagekit-0.4.0-6.fc11
------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 0.4.0-6
- make update notification persistent (#485796)


libvoikko-2.1-0.5.rc4.fc11
--------------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi> - 2.1-0.5.rc4
- 2.1rc4:
  - Fix invalid use of delete vs. delete[]
  - Limit the scope of some variables


lvm2-2.02.45-4.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Milan Broz <mbroz at redhat.com> - 2.02.45-4
- Add MMC (mmcblk) device type to filters. (483686)


mash-0.5.2-1.fc11
-----------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> 0.5.2-1
- set a max size for deltarpm-able packages (#496242)


mdadm-3.0-0.devel3.6.fc11
-------------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Doug Ledford <dledford at redhat.com> - 3.0-0.devel3.6
- Move the mdadm.map file from /dev/md to just /dev so we don't have to
  create a /dev/md directory in the installer


nautilus-sendto-1.1.4-1.fc11
----------------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 1.1.4-1
- Update to 1.1.4


openhpi-2.14.0-2.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Dan Horak <dan[at]danny.cz> - 2.14.0-1
- update to 2.14.0

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Dan Horak <dan[at]danny.cz> - 2.14.0-2
- use upstream default config
- libtoolize/autoreconf is not needed


prctl-1.4-5.2.1
---------------

prewikka-0.9.14-4.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Steve Grubb <sgrubb at redhat.com> 0.9.14-4
- Change default perms on conf file


pygame-1.8.1-5.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 1.8.1-5
- Add dep for numpy-f2py to fix broken games, BZ 496218.


rpy-2.0.3-2.fc11
----------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 2.0.3-2
- rebuild for R 2.9.0


vino-2.26.1-2.fc11
------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2
- Avoid restarting vino-server in a loop


xfce4-settings-4.6.0-6.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Kevin Fenzi <kevin at tummy.com> - 4.6.0-6
- Have to add Antialias type to really enable by default.


xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.2-4.fc11
------------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.2-4
- radeon-modeset.patch: fix stupid idle drawing corrupt since mmap cache


xorg-x11-drv-evdev-2.2.1-3.fc11
-------------------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> 2.2.1-3
- evdev-2.2.1-prealloc-timer.patch: prealloc the reopen timer to avoid mallocs
  during sigio handling.
- evdev-2.2.1-X_NONE.patch: print read errors as _X_NONE to avoid mallocs
  during sigio handling.


xorg-x11-drv-intel-2.7.0-1.fc11
-------------------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 2.7.0-1
- intel 2.7.0


xorg-x11-drv-synaptics-1.1.0-3.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.1.0-3
- synaptics-1.1.0-allocate-timer-early.patch: Allocate the timer early so
  we don't try to malloc it within a sigio handler.


xorg-x11-server-1.6.1-6.fc11
----------------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at redhat.com> 1.6.1-5
- xserver-1.6.1-activate-device.patch: remove the device if activation fails.
  This fixes crashes if wacom tablets are added through hal _and_ have an
  xorg.conf section.

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.6.1-6
- xserver-1.6.1-randr-gamma.patch: Silence debugging messages.

* Thu Apr 16 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 1.6.1-3
- xserver-1.6.1-exa-avoid-swapped-out.patch - make FUS not suck in theory

* Thu Apr 16 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.6.1-4
- xserver-1.6.1-randr-gamma.patch: Hook up XF86VidMode's gamma control to
  RANDR's per-crtc gamma controls.

* Wed Apr 15 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 1.6.1-2
- xserver-1.6.0-randr-xinerama-crash.patch - fix xinerama vs randr crash


xpdf-3.02-13.fc11
-----------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 1:3.02-13
- apply xpdf-3.02pl3 security patch to fix:
  CVE-2009-0799, CVE-2009-0800, CVE-2009-1179, CVE-2009-1180
  CVE-2009-1181, CVE-2009-1182, CVE-2009-1183


Summary:
Added Packages: 5
Removed Packages: 1
Modified Packages: 28
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	pyxmlsec-0.3.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	pyxmlsec-0.3.0-2.fc10.i386 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	pyxmlsec-0.3.0-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	pyxmlsec-0.3.0-2.fc10.x86_64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	pyxmlsec-0.3.0-2.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	pyxmlsec-0.3.0-2.fc10.ppc requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	pyxmlsec-0.3.0-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	pyxmlsec-0.3.0-2.fc10.ppc64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)





From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Sun Apr 19 17:21:54 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:21:54 +0200
Subject: no graphical boot in rawhide (aka how to activate)
Message-ID: <1240161714.5204.3.camel@choeger6>

Hi folks,

I've just upgraded my f-9 notebook to rawhide.

Worked smooth. 

All that I currently encounter is:

1. grub output is totally cluttered (weird colors) (shouldn't grub not
pop up after all on >= f10?)

2. I cannot see plymouth graphical boot but get a kms console. Is that
intentional? How can I change that? (Just to show "HAHA, I am bleeding
edge" to some debian folks ;) )

regards

christoph
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From darrellpf at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 17:53:03 2009
From: darrellpf at gmail.com (darrell pfeifer)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:53:03 -0700
Subject: no graphical boot in rawhide (aka how to activate)
In-Reply-To: <1240161714.5204.3.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240161714.5204.3.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <f6e5806f0904191053n3e0d6e21p34f6e88c7b9e22d3@mail.gmail.com>

Christoph,

Hi folks,
>
> I've just upgraded my f-9 notebook to rawhide.
>
> Worked smooth.
>
> All that I currently encounter is:
>
> 1. grub output is totally cluttered (weird colors) (shouldn't grub not
> pop up after all on >= f10?)
>
> 2. I cannot see plymouth graphical boot but get a kms console. Is that
> intentional? How can I change that? (Just to show "HAHA, I am bleeding
> edge" to some debian folks ;) )
>

The ugly grub splash only started happening with the very latest version of
the flash screen (in the last few days).

darrell
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From mschmidt at redhat.com  Sun Apr 19 17:54:32 2009
From: mschmidt at redhat.com (Michal Schmidt)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:54:32 +0200
Subject: no graphical boot in rawhide (aka how to activate)
In-Reply-To: <1240161714.5204.3.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240161714.5204.3.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <20090419195432.2b42a24a@hammerfall>

Dne Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:21:54 +0200
Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de> napsal(a):

> Hi folks,
> 
> I've just upgraded my f-9 notebook to rawhide.
> 
> Worked smooth. 
> 
> All that I currently encounter is:
> 
> 1. grub output is totally cluttered (weird colors)

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496202

> (shouldn't grub not pop up after all on >= f10?)

Yes, that's the default setting for new installations if you don't
dualboot. But because you upgraded, your old grub config was preserved.

> 2. I cannot see plymouth graphical boot but get a kms console. Is that
> intentional? How can I change that? (Just to show "HAHA, I am bleeding
> edge" to some debian folks ;) )

Do you have rhgb on the kernel command line?

Michal



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Sun Apr 19 18:21:38 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:21:38 +0200
Subject: no graphical boot in rawhide (aka how to activate)
In-Reply-To: <20090419195432.2b42a24a@hammerfall>
References: <1240161714.5204.3.camel@choeger6>
	<20090419195432.2b42a24a@hammerfall>
Message-ID: <1240165298.5204.13.camel@choeger6>

Am Sonntag, den 19.04.2009, 19:54 +0200 schrieb Michal Schmidt:
> Dne Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:21:54 +0200
> Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de> napsal(a):
> 
> > Hi folks,
> > 
> > I've just upgraded my f-9 notebook to rawhide.
> > 
> > Worked smooth. 
> > 
> > All that I currently encounter is:
> > 
> > 1. grub output is totally cluttered (weird colors)
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496202
> 
> > (shouldn't grub not pop up after all on >= f10?)
> 
> Yes, that's the default setting for new installations if you don't
> dualboot. But because you upgraded, your old grub config was preserved.
> 

Ah, I _do_ dualboot, that explains a lot.

> > 2. I cannot see plymouth graphical boot but get a kms console. Is that
> > intentional? How can I change that? (Just to show "HAHA, I am bleeding
> > edge" to some debian folks ;) )
> 
> Do you have rhgb on the kernel command line?
> 

Yes, I assume I should not? Preserving old config?
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr 19 18:35:44 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 00:05:44 +0530
Subject: no graphical boot in rawhide (aka how to activate)
In-Reply-To: <1240161714.5204.3.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240161714.5204.3.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <49EB6F00.6090100@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/19/2009 10:51 PM, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> I've just upgraded my f-9 notebook to rawhide.
> 
> Worked smooth. 
> 
> All that I currently encounter is:
> 
> 1. grub output is totally cluttered (weird colors) (shouldn't grub not
> pop up after all on >= f10?)

Fixed in the latest update of fedora-logos.

> 
> 2. I cannot see plymouth graphical boot but get a kms console. Is that
> intentional? How can I change that? (Just to show "HAHA, I am bleeding
> edge" to some debian folks ;) )

For Nvidia cards, it is not enabled by default yet. Refer

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NouveauModesetting

Rahul



From caillon at redhat.com  Sun Apr 19 18:42:37 2009
From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:42:37 -0700
Subject: PackageKit and Presto
In-Reply-To: <f6ca9fed0904190150g3e305684h4f46f5cf03e55399@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
	<f6ca9fed0904190150g3e305684h4f46f5cf03e55399@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EB709D.7010700@redhat.com>

On 04/19/2009 01:50 AM, drago01 wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Martin Sourada
> <martin.sourada at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Fedora 11 is probably going to see two great improvements to our updates
>> system - the PackageKit one makes the updates much more verbose and the
>> Presto one saves a lot of bandwith. The problem is that PackageKit does
>> not know about presto and thus showing download progress for Presto
>> enabled repos is broken. Yesterday I was waiting about 10 minutes before
>> anything other than "Downloading packages" appeared and even then,
>> packages fetched via Presto weren't marked as downloaded.
>>
>> So I though I'd ask. Is anyone working on this? Should I expect it to be
>> working at F11 GA?
>
> If presto is going to be enabled by default this must be fixed before
> GA, please file a bug and mark it as blocker.

Please don't abuse the blocker bugs.  This is certainly not a blocker 
per http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/ReleaseCriteria



From mschmidt at redhat.com  Sun Apr 19 18:51:08 2009
From: mschmidt at redhat.com (Michal Schmidt)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:51:08 +0200
Subject: no graphical boot in rawhide (aka how to activate)
In-Reply-To: <1240165298.5204.13.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240161714.5204.3.camel@choeger6>
	<20090419195432.2b42a24a@hammerfall>
	<1240165298.5204.13.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <20090419205108.4be53994@hammerfall>

Dne Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:21:38 +0200
Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de> napsal(a):

> Am Sonntag, den 19.04.2009, 19:54 +0200 schrieb Michal Schmidt:
> > Dne Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:21:54 +0200
> > Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de> napsal(a):
> > > 2. I cannot see plymouth graphical boot but get a kms console. Is
> > > that intentional? How can I change that? (Just to show "HAHA, I
> > > am bleeding edge" to some debian folks ;) )
> > 
> > Do you have rhgb on the kernel command line?
> > 
> 
> Yes, I assume I should not? Preserving old config?

Don't remove it, it's needed.
Do you have at least one plymouth-plugin-* package installed?

Michal



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Sun Apr 19 18:58:16 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:58:16 +0200
Subject: no graphical boot in rawhide (aka how to activate)
In-Reply-To: <20090419205108.4be53994@hammerfall>
References: <1240161714.5204.3.camel@choeger6>
	<20090419195432.2b42a24a@hammerfall>
	<1240165298.5204.13.camel@choeger6>
	<20090419205108.4be53994@hammerfall>
Message-ID: <1240167496.5204.15.camel@choeger6>


> Don't remove it, it's needed.
> Do you have at least one plymouth-plugin-* package installed?

Ok, I'll add it again. (Just thought plymouth would obsolete rhgb)


[choeger at choeger6 ~]$ rpm -qa | grep plymouth
plymouth-libs-0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3.fc11.i586
plymouth-scripts-0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3.fc11.i586
plymouth-system-plugin-0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3.fc11.i586
plymouth-plugin-solar-0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3.fc11.i586
plymouth-plugin-label-0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3.fc11.i586
plymouth-0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3.fc11.i586
plymouth-gdm-hooks-0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3.fc11.i586
plymouth-utils-0.7.0-0.2009.03.10.3.fc11.i586

And to clarify this: This is intel chipset gfx, KMS works out of the
box.

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From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr 19 19:24:12 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:24:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PackageKit and Presto
In-Reply-To: <49EB709D.7010700@redhat.com>
References: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
	<f6ca9fed0904190150g3e305684h4f46f5cf03e55399@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EB709D.7010700@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904191524040.10773@localhost.localdomain>

y

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009, Christopher Aillon wrote:

> On 04/19/2009 01:50 AM, drago01 wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Martin Sourada
>> <martin.sourada at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Fedora 11 is probably going to see two great improvements to our updates
>>> system - the PackageKit one makes the updates much more verbose and the
>>> Presto one saves a lot of bandwith. The problem is that PackageKit does
>>> not know about presto and thus showing download progress for Presto
>>> enabled repos is broken. Yesterday I was waiting about 10 minutes before
>>> anything other than "Downloading packages" appeared and even then,
>>> packages fetched via Presto weren't marked as downloaded.
>>> 
>>> So I though I'd ask. Is anyone working on this? Should I expect it to be
>>> working at F11 GA?
>> 
>> If presto is going to be enabled by default this must be fixed before
>> GA, please file a bug and mark it as blocker.
>
> Please don't abuse the blocker bugs.  This is certainly not a blocker per 
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/ReleaseCriteria

+1 - it's not a blocker.
-sv



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Sun Apr 19 19:57:02 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 21:57:02 +0200
Subject: no graphical boot in rawhide (aka how to activate)
In-Reply-To: <1240167496.5204.15.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240161714.5204.3.camel@choeger6>
	<20090419195432.2b42a24a@hammerfall>
	<1240165298.5204.13.camel@choeger6>
	<20090419205108.4be53994@hammerfall>
	<1240167496.5204.15.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <1240171022.3210.0.camel@choeger6>

Ok, I got the bug:

Somehow init=/sbin/bootchartd got into the grub line. That caused
plymouth to vanish.

thanks

christoph
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From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Sun Apr 19 19:59:28 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 21:59:28 +0200
Subject: debugging crontab
Message-ID: <1240171168.3210.3.camel@choeger6>

Hi folks,

I've got a problem with my offlineimap setup under f11 (under f9 and f10
it works well):

I have: 
*/5 * * * * DISPLAY=:0.0 /usr/bin/offlineimap -u Gnome.GnomeUI /dev/null
2>&1 #JOB_ID_1

in crontab. 

Running offlineimap directly works well (so its no issue with GnomeUI).
The cronjob hangs forever. 

Any ideas how I can figure out whats different in both cases?

regards

christoph
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From martin.sourada at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 20:31:01 2009
From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 22:31:01 +0200
Subject: PackageKit and Presto
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904191524040.10773@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
	<f6ca9fed0904190150g3e305684h4f46f5cf03e55399@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EB709D.7010700@redhat.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904191524040.10773@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240173061.8529.1.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>

On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 15:24 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote:
> +1 - it's not a blocker.
> -sv
> 
Should we just remove it (meaning the F11Blocker blocking) then or does
F11Target sounds saner?

Martin
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From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 19 20:46:41 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:46:41 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904171318i41e9f350kb358c7774175f0e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de> <20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
	<200904180041.20659.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<e76492710904171318i41e9f350kb358c7774175f0e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240174001.14092.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 16:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> We first lost CTRL+ALT-F7, now CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE. What is next? The
> "kill" command? I think that is left to the imagination of our
> upstreams.

They may take our gettys, they may take our zapper, but they'll never
take... OUR FREEDOM!
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From ml at kiewel-online.ch  Sun Apr 19 20:57:55 2009
From: ml at kiewel-online.ch (Uwe Kiewel)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 22:57:55 +0200
Subject: debugging crontab
In-Reply-To: <1240171168.3210.3.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240171168.3210.3.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <49EB9053.8050503@kiewel-online.ch>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Christoph H?ger wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> I've got a problem with my offlineimap setup under f11 (under f9 and f10
> it works well):
> 
> I have: 
> */5 * * * * DISPLAY=:0.0 /usr/bin/offlineimap -u Gnome.GnomeUI /dev/null
> 2>&1 #JOB_ID_1
> 

Is there a ">" missing between Gnone.GnomeUI and /dev/null in your command?

In an ober case remove the output redirection to /dev/null. Cron will
generate an email with the output of the cronjob.

> in crontab. 
> 
> Running offlineimap directly works well (so its no issue with GnomeUI).
> The cronjob hangs forever. 
> 
> Any ideas how I can figure out whats different in both cases?
> 
> regards
> 
> christoph
> 

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From pavel.lisy at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 21:06:50 2009
From: pavel.lisy at gmail.com (Pavel =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lis=FD?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 23:06:50 +0200
Subject: How can I update package for EPEL4/5
Message-ID: <1240175210.4292.15.camel@pali-ntb.hk.tmapy.cz>

I have made new build of cherokee package (through plague-client)

http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-4-epel/2042-cherokee-0.99.0-1.el4/
http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-5-epel/2043-cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5/

but I don't know how to push it to repository. I've tried this:

bodhi --new --release=EL-5 --type=enhancement --comment "update to
latest stable version" --request=stable cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5

but I've received:
Creating a new update for cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5
data = {'tg_flash': 'Invalid build: cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5'}
Invalid build: cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5

In web interface (https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/) is no EL-4,
EL-5, does it mean there is no web interface for EPEL update system?

Pavel



From bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se  Sun Apr 19 21:09:32 2009
From: bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bj=F6rn_Persson?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 23:09:32 +0200
Subject: development packages and multilib
Message-ID: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>

I'm trying to learn how to build packages for Fedora. My first question is 
about multilib development packages.

I know that compiled libraries can be installed in both 32-bit and 64-bit 
versions at the same time, but is this required for -devel packages as well? 
That is, is it normal to compile both 32-bit and 64-bit programs on the same 
host, so that one needs both libwhatever-devel.i386 and 
libwhatever-devel.x86_64, or is it permissible for the two versions of 
libwhatever-devel to conflict with each other?

Bj?rn Persson
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From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr 19 21:16:37 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 17:16:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PackageKit and Presto
In-Reply-To: <1240173061.8529.1.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
References: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
	<f6ca9fed0904190150g3e305684h4f46f5cf03e55399@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EB709D.7010700@redhat.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904191524040.10773@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240173061.8529.1.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904191716170.10773@localhost.localdomain>



On Sun, 19 Apr 2009, Martin Sourada wrote:

> On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 15:24 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote:
>> +1 - it's not a blocker.
>> -sv
>>
> Should we just remove it (meaning the F11Blocker blocking) then or does
> F11Target sounds saner?
>

Target sounds saner, not sure what the likelihood is in either case.

-sv



From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 21:22:14 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:22:14 +0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <200904200222.15188.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 08 April 2009 01:31:41 Paul Wouters wrote:
> +1 for reverting to the old behaviour of having ctrl-alt-backspace kill
> the current X session.
>
> Paul

Time for some stats.
>From all the people who replied to this thread:
19 were for reverting the change, 1 of them from RH.
7 were for keeping the change, 5 of them from RH.
And a lot of others who were neutral (at least I couldn't decide on which side 
they were).

Suren



From dennis at ausil.us  Sun Apr 19 21:23:24 2009
From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:23:24 -0500
Subject: How can I update package for EPEL4/5
In-Reply-To: <1240175210.4292.15.camel@pali-ntb.hk.tmapy.cz>
References: <1240175210.4292.15.camel@pali-ntb.hk.tmapy.cz>
Message-ID: <200904191623.25537.dennis@ausil.us>

On Sunday 19 April 2009 04:06:50 pm Pavel Lis? wrote:
> I have made new build of cherokee package (through plague-client)
>
> http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-4-epel/2042-cherokee-0.99.0-1
>.el4/
> http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-5-epel/2043-cherokee-0.99.0-1
>.el5/
>
> but I don't know how to push it to repository. I've tried this:
>
> bodhi --new --release=EL-5 --type=enhancement --comment "update to
> latest stable version" --request=stable cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5
>
> but I've received:
> Creating a new update for cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5
> data = {'tg_flash': 'Invalid build: cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5'}
> Invalid build: cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5
>
> In web interface (https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/) is no EL-4,
> EL-5, does it mean there is no web interface for EPEL update system?
>
> Pavel
It happens automatically in EPEL right now.

Dennis



From bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se  Sun Apr 19 21:32:41 2009
From: bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bj=F6rn_Persson?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 23:32:41 +0200
Subject: changelog format
Message-ID: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>

I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand. How 
strict are the requirements on the format of changelog entries? Are they 
meant to be machine-readable? Is the format specified anywhere? The packaging 
guidelines document contains four examples. Examples are good but they're no 
replacement for a specification.

So far, RPMlint has told me that each entry must start with an asterisk and 
that the international standard date format is bad. Can I trust that the 
format is OK if RPMlint doesn't complain?

Bj?rn Persson
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From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 22:07:25 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 03:37:25 +0530
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904191507h3ca6fbe6h801f6b676cd7f4c5@mail.gmail.com>

> Owner ? Package
> ===== ? =======
> rakesh ?coredumper

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496523

I poked at this one a bit, and it looks related to post-f10 changes in
GDB. I am not familiar with those changes, so if someone can help it
would be nice.

Happy hacking,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Sun Apr 19 22:18:02 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 00:18:02 +0200
Subject: debugging crontab
In-Reply-To: <49EB9053.8050503@kiewel-online.ch>
References: <1240171168.3210.3.camel@choeger6>
	<49EB9053.8050503@kiewel-online.ch>
Message-ID: <1240179482.3210.10.camel@choeger6>

Am Sonntag, den 19.04.2009, 22:57 +0200 schrieb Uwe Kiewel:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Christoph H?ger wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> > 
> > I've got a problem with my offlineimap setup under f11 (under f9 and f10
> > it works well):
> > 
> > I have: 
> > */5 * * * * DISPLAY=:0.0 /usr/bin/offlineimap -u Gnome.GnomeUI /dev/null
> > 2>&1 #JOB_ID_1
> > 
> 
> Is there a ">" missing between Gnone.GnomeUI and /dev/null in your command?
> 
> In an ober case remove the output redirection to /dev/null. Cron will
> generate an email with the output of the cronjob.

Yeah, I did that. But the stdout and stderr do not provide useful
information. So basically I need a way to figure out what's different
between a cron invokation and a manual call of python.
Any ideas?
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From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 22:43:10 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 18:43:10 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
Message-ID: <e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/19 Bj?rn Persson:
> I'm trying to learn how to build packages for Fedora. My first question is
> about multilib development packages.
>
> I know that compiled libraries can be installed in both 32-bit and 64-bit
> versions at the same time, but is this required for -devel packages as well?
> That is, is it normal to compile both 32-bit and 64-bit programs on the same
> host, so that one needs both libwhatever-devel.i386 and
> libwhatever-devel.x86_64, or is it permissible for the two versions of
> libwhatever-devel to conflict with each other?
>
> Bj?rn Persson
>

This is a dilemma we have in Fedora. I have no idea why someone would
want to keep the devel subpackages of the same package with different
archs installed.

Even adding a %doc makes these devel subpackages conflict each other.
I do wonder what is the logic laying behind.

Orcan



From alexl at users.sourceforge.net  Sun Apr 19 23:32:06 2009
From: alexl at users.sourceforge.net (Alex Lancaster)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:32:06 -0700
Subject: rawhide report: 20090419 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090419150830.C86941B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	(Rawhide Report's message of "Sun\,
	19 Apr 2009 15\:08\:30 +0000 \(UTC\)")
References: <20090419150830.C86941B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <18ws9gi5jd.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>

>>>>> Rawhide Report  writes:

> Compose started at Sun Apr 19 06:15:08 UTC 2009

> New package pyxmlsec
>         Python bindings for the XML Security Library

Odd that this package has been added but causes a broken dep (below).

[...]

> Summary:
> Added Packages: 5
> Removed Packages: 1
> Modified Packages: 28
> Broken deps for i386
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 	pyxmlsec-0.3.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
> 	pyxmlsec-0.3.0-2.fc10.i386 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5

Has somebody done the appropriate rel-eng request that the new proper
F-11 build:

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=98611

be added to f11-final to fix this dep?

> 	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
> 	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
> 	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7

Ditto for sems:

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=98630

Alex



From greno at verizon.net  Sun Apr 19 23:40:12 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:40:12 -0400
Subject: F10: something broken with lvm
Message-ID: <49EBB65C.9010301@verizon.net>

We just upgraded a number of machines to F10 and after a few weeks I've 
noticed something wrong with lvm.  Some of our inhouse scripts are 
breaking that deal with lvm.  When I look at /etc/fstab and mount I see 
entries what used to look like:
/dev/VolGroup00/LogVol01 /                      ext3    defaults        1 1
getting changed to this:
/dev/dm-3   /                     ext3   defaults      1 1



Where does this '/dev/dm-3' device come from?  I don't find it 
referenced in any of the lvm tool outputs.  Whatever caused this change 
to happen please revert this back to just listing lv's in normal lvm 
parlance please.  These mysterious changes are breaking things and are a 
complete nuisance.  How do we go about undoing these changes and how do 
we prevent this from happening again?


Regards,
Gerry



From markg85 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 00:19:06 2009
From: markg85 at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:19:06 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <200904200222.15188.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<200904200222.15188.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6e24a8e80904191719r7bbd992fqa062dfa1186e48c0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Suren Karapetyan
<surenkarapetyan at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday 08 April 2009 01:31:41 Paul Wouters wrote:
>> +1 for reverting to the old behaviour of having ctrl-alt-backspace kill
>> the current X session.
>>
>> Paul
>
> Time for some stats.
> >From all the people who replied to this thread:
> 19 were for reverting the change, 1 of them from RH.
> 7 were for keeping the change, 5 of them from RH.
> And a lot of others who were neutral (at least I couldn't decide on which side
> they were).
>
> Suren

So if you keep people out that work for redhat you get:
18 in favor of the old default
2 in favor of the new default.

I think we have a clear winner. But o wait, a vote like this isn't
subjective/valid/wished or whatever the reason is. (sarcastic, i hope
you notice. don't bother replying with this as quote)

It is interesting to see that the the majority of the people are in
favor of the old behaviour but the majority of redhat is in favor of
the new one.

I wonder if this new default is ever goingto be changed back to it's
old state or that we just have to "bite" trough the change till we get
used to it.

Btw. i don't know if i'm in your 19 number as well but i'm havily in
favor of the OLD default so could me in there ^_^



From dr.diesel at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 00:23:08 2009
From: dr.diesel at gmail.com (Dr. Diesel)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:23:08 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904191719r7bbd992fqa062dfa1186e48c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<200904200222.15188.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904191719r7bbd992fqa062dfa1186e48c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2a28d2ab0904191723o158d092j3d668bd42ad86311@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Suren Karapetyan
> <surenkarapetyan at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 08 April 2009 01:31:41 Paul Wouters wrote:
> >> +1 for reverting to the old behaviour of having ctrl-alt-backspace kill
> >> the current X session.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >
> > Time for some stats.
> > >From all the people who replied to this thread:
> > 19 were for reverting the change, 1 of them from RH.
> > 7 were for keeping the change, 5 of them from RH.
> > And a lot of others who were neutral (at least I couldn't decide on which
> side
> > they were).
> >
> > Suren
>
> So if you keep people out that work for redhat you get:
> 18 in favor of the old default
> 2 in favor of the new default.
>
> I think we have a clear winner. But o wait, a vote like this isn't
> subjective/valid/wished or whatever the reason is. (sarcastic, i hope
> you notice. don't bother replying with this as quote)
>
> It is interesting to see that the the majority of the people are in
> favor of the old behaviour but the majority of redhat is in favor of
> the new one.
>
> I wonder if this new default is ever goingto be changed back to it's
> old state or that we just have to "bite" trough the change till we get
> used to it.
>
> Btw. i don't know if i'm in your 19 number as well but i'm havily in
> favor of the OLD default so could me in there ^_^
>

Poll or not, mark me as 20.

-- 
projecthuh.com
All of my bits are free, are yours?  Fedoraproject.org
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From seg at haxxed.com  Mon Apr 20 00:42:33 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:42:33 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417232830.GC31693@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de> <20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org> <20090417231113.GC29072@tango.0pointer.de>
	<604aa7910904171616t1fb3554asa27dfdd788a89a3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417232830.GC31693@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240188153.14092.182.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 01:28 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 17.04.09 15:16, Jeff Spaleta (jspaleta at gmail.com) wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Lennart Poettering
> > <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
> > > Oh, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, most config files are only
> > > touched during installation and during package upgrades. Otherwise
> > > they are practically read-only. During package upgrades or if the
> > > admin really wants to change something he can temporarily remount / to
> > > rw without a problem. This is eprfectly well supported by Debian.
> > 
> > Hmm I guess we need to redesign how denyhosts works as a service as
> > its default operation is to edit /etc/hosts.deny..quite frequently.
> > 
> > Should I file a bug report now?
> 
> I am not aware that it was an official Fedora goal to make it boot
> from a ro /. Would be good if it was, though.

Think about LiveCDs. No writes are going to be permanent, so why bother
writing at all?

Think about the proliferation of solid state storage. We can no longer
take for granted that writes are free, with flash storage writes come
with a cost. Read only root would guarantee preservation of operating
lifetime.

Read only also makes filesystem corruption much less likely.

Read only also allows the possibility of mastering a "perfect"
filesystem. No fragmentation, and you can compress it to hell and back.

Read only, if it's ensured in hardware, ensures security. Cleanup only
takes a reboot.

Is it weird of me to pine for the the days of floppy disks? Things were
so much easier then. Just put in the disk you want and go. I've got a
whole long blog post about this I should write some day. I'd like to see
a clear, hard line separation between the operating system, and user
data. The operating system should be self-contained, and uniform. The OS
should be able to be easily replaced, upgraded or downgraded, free of
state to muck things up. Hence, write only root. Once mastered, it stays
the same.

Remember write protect tabs?

> However, no daemon should ever touch files in /etc automatically. That
> NM does that is pretty bad style. Instead resolv.conf should be
> replaced by a symlink to /var and manipulated there.

In my wireless firmware:

http://www.haxxed.com/belkin/

resolve.conf is hardwired to localhost and dnsmasq is used for all DNS
configuration.

# ls -l /etc/
lrwxrwxrwx    1 0        0              11 shadow -> /tmp/shadow
-rw-r--r--    1 0        0              21 resolv.conf
-rw-r--r--    1 0        0             458 radvd.split.conf
-rw-r--r--    1 0        0             228 radvd.conf
-rw-r--r--    1 0        0              23 profile
-rw-r--r--    1 0        0              84 passwd
drwxrwxr-x    1 0        0              76 init.d
lrwxrwxrwx    1 0        0              10 hosts -> /tmp/hosts
-rw-------    1 0        0               0 gshadow
-rw-r--r--    1 0        0              30 group
lrwxrwxrwx    1 0        0              11 ethers -> /tmp/ethers
lrwxrwxrwx    1 0        0              13 dropbear -> /tmp/dropbear

# cat /etc/resolv.conf 
nameserver 127.0.0.1

Though various other things have to be redirected to /tmp, a ramfs
populated on boot by the init scripts from nvram settings. 2mb flash
just doesn't provide enough space for JFFS2.


dnsmasq ftw
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From tgl at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 00:48:53 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:48:53 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib 
In-Reply-To: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> 
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
Message-ID: <13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us>

=?iso-8859-1?q?Bj=F6rn_Persson?= <bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> writes:
> I know that compiled libraries can be installed in both 32-bit and 64-bit 
> versions at the same time, but is this required for -devel packages as well? 

Yes, up to a point.  I am not sure if recent Fedora versions have
improved on matters (there was talk of improvement awhile back --- eg
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BillNottingham/MultilibDraft).  But the
way it works for RHEL packages is that multilib conflicts are only
allowed for binary executable files, and I think only if they're in
standard locations such as /usr/bin, /sbin, etc.  For example, if your
-devel package has to install /usr/include/mypackage.h, then the 32-bit
and 64-bit versions must install *identical* copies of that file.

Now if mypackage.h comes straight from the upstream distro, this is
no problem.  For files generated during build (think mypackage-config.h)
it is a big problem, since such files often contain arch-specific
values.  The standard workaround is to install the actual generated
file as, say, /usr/include/mypackage-config-i386.h or
/usr/include/mypackage-config-x86_64.h, and have both packages provide
a textually identical stub file /usr/include/mypackage-config.h that
#include's the right one of these depending on platform #define's.

Actual library files of course aren't a problem since they are under
either /usr/lib or /usr/lib64.

The other common source of conflicts is generated configuration scripts,
eg "/usr/bin/mypackage-config".  The /usr/bin exception I mentioned
above applies only for *binary* executables --- if your package builds a
shell script or something similar that contains configuration values,
it still breaks the rules.  This can be solved with a similar
indirection workaround.  I tend to put the actual generated script
under /usr/lib or /usr/lib64, and then /usr/bin/ has a stub that
invokes the right one of these.

I'm not entirely sure what's the point of this rule, given that if you
have any binary executables the two packages aren't going to be
concurrently installable anyway.  But I suppose a lot of -devel packages
don't need to do that.

You can find examples of how I do this in the mysql and postgresql
package specfiles in CVS.  That stuff is all several years old now,
and there might be better ways that have evolved in the meantime
(especially if you only care about recent Fedora releases).
I'd be interested to find out more about how other people do it.

			regards, tom lane



From seg at haxxed.com  Mon Apr 20 00:50:59 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:50:59 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <1240029687.14173.39.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<20090417125428.GC1322964@hiwaay.net> <gsb2ht$qsb$4@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090417232445.GB31693@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240029687.14173.39.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240188659.14092.185.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 21:41 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 01:24 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> 
> > I don't think the switch would be that complicated. The packagers
> > could change --prefix=/usr to --prefix=/ in the spec files whenever
> > they want. And when the last package is updated accordingly and a bit
> > of time passed and /usr is empty it could be replaced by a symlink.
> 
> oh, yes, because EVERYTHING builds with autotools. *sigh*

Any build system that doesn't provide the same configurability as
autotools is braindead and broken. And is likely already having to be
patched to hell and back to build into an RPM anyway.
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From tony at bakeyournoodle.com  Mon Apr 20 01:47:32 2009
From: tony at bakeyournoodle.com (Tony Breeds)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:47:32 +1000
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090420014732.GC16602@bilbo.ozlabs.org>

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 06:43:10PM -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

> This is a dilemma we have in Fedora. I have no idea why someone would
> want to keep the devel subpackages of the same package with different
> archs installed.

For example.
I have a production tool that needs to run (and therfore be tested) on both 32
and 64 bit varients of my platform (say intel or powerpc).  I need both the
/usr/lib and /usr/lib64 files (and therefor the packages) installed so I can
compile and test locally.

Sure I /could/ to the testing on the target server but I don't need (nor want)
to.
 
> Even adding a %doc makes these devel subpackages conflict each other.
> I do wonder what is the logic laying behind.

I agree this isn't an easy problem to solve and has been discussed many times
here (and I've only been here for 6 months ;P)

Yours Tony



From somlo at cmu.edu  Mon Apr 20 02:13:12 2009
From: somlo at cmu.edu (L. Gabriel Somlo)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 22:13:12 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <2a28d2ab0904191723o158d092j3d668bd42ad86311@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090420014754.10758618C5C@hormel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090420021311.GA23976@foober.net.cmu.edu>

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009, Dr. Diesel wrote:
> 
> Poll or not, mark me as 20.

Allright, 21 in favor of the old default :)

I like to have ctrl-alt-backspace, and at the same time prefer to
stick as close to a default install as possible.



From seg at haxxed.com  Mon Apr 20 02:16:56 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 21:16:56 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240193816.14092.188.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 18:43 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> 2009/4/19 Bj?rn Persson:
> > I'm trying to learn how to build packages for Fedora. My first question is
> > about multilib development packages.
> >
> > I know that compiled libraries can be installed in both 32-bit and 64-bit
> > versions at the same time, but is this required for -devel packages as well?
> > That is, is it normal to compile both 32-bit and 64-bit programs on the same
> > host, so that one needs both libwhatever-devel.i386 and
> > libwhatever-devel.x86_64, or is it permissible for the two versions of
> > libwhatever-devel to conflict with each other?
> >
> > Bj?rn Persson
> 
> This is a dilemma we have in Fedora. I have no idea why someone would
> want to keep the devel subpackages of the same package with different
> archs installed.
> 
> Even adding a %doc makes these devel subpackages conflict each other.
> I do wonder what is the logic laying behind.

It's required if you want to compile both x86_64 and i386 on an x86_64
machine. I do it all the time. (-m32 flag to gcc)
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From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 02:36:13 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:06:13 +0530
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904191936v1053f3fod1664826f10900b7@mail.gmail.com>

> Owner ? Package
> ===== ? =======
> pmachata ? ? ? ?flex

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496548

Should be fine after applying the attached fix.

Happy hacking,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From pemboa at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 03:13:11 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 22:13:11 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090420021311.GA23976@foober.net.cmu.edu>
References: <20090420014754.10758618C5C@hormel.redhat.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904191723o158d092j3d668bd42ad86311@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420021311.GA23976@foober.net.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904192013r5f82b3fh64ab1aae4f181416@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 9:13 PM, L. Gabriel Somlo <somlo at cmu.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Apr 2009, Dr. Diesel wrote:
>>
>> Poll or not, mark me as 20.
>
> Allright, 21 in favor of the old default :)
>
> I like to have ctrl-alt-backspace, and at the same time prefer to
> stick as close to a default install as possible.


Short of forking Fedora and/or Xorg I don't see the powers that be
changing their mind.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 03:35:14 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:05:14 +0530
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904192035o62f8fa7fmdc93d5b766b22091@mail.gmail.com>

> Owner ? Package
> ===== ? =======
> llim ? ?redhat-lsb

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496553

Should be fine after applying the attached fix.

By the way, I found that redhat-lsb hardcodes the distribution in the
Release tag, but I could not find the reason behind this change:
http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/rpms/redhat-lsb/F-10/redhat-lsb.spec?r1=1.38&r2=1.39

Happy hacking,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Mon Apr 20 05:56:34 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:56:34 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net>
	<1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>	<49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de>
	<20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <49EC0E92.2050801@freenet.de>

Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 07:02:20PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> Christopher Stone wrote:
>>> 2009/4/16 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>:
>>>> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 01:37 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
>>>>> You will not find anyone @RH who will agree that
>>>>> previews behavior was better
>>>>>
>>>> On the contrary, you'll likely find many people who work for Red Hat
>>>> that would prefer the old behavior, they're just not wasting their time
>>>> by arguing about it on a distribution mailing list.
>>> So what are they doing instead?
>> Abusing the Fedora as Guinea pigs, as they've done many times before.
> 
> By doing the change upstream?
>

When "upstreams" are identical to the fedora maintainers, the "upstream 
argument" is moot. They are in a position to commit any stupidity they 
want upstream and label it "upstream decsion".

If then, management and QA/control is dominated by "one governing state 
party" (Like in Fedora), all control and QA is effectively non-existent.

In other words, it's simply a matter of powers.



From rjones at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 08:16:21 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:16:21 +0100
Subject: Split out e2fsprogs sublibraries
In-Reply-To: <20090220143414.GA20451@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <20090220143414.GA20451@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <20090420081621.GA20554@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 02:34:14PM +0000, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> I would like to propose that e2fsprogs generate four subpackages for
> the independent libraries that it contains.  These four libraries are
> used by other packages that don't need the whole of e2fsprogs-devel
> (eg. krb5_workstation uses libss, qpid uses libuuid, and many programs
> use libcom_err).
[...]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=225406#c7

Eric, now that F-12 has been branched in the Fedora repositories, is
it a good time to look again at splitting out the libraries from
e2fsprogs?

I have CC'd this email to f-d-l.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
Read my programming blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com
Fedora now supports 75 OCaml packages (the OPEN alternative to F#)
http://cocan.org/getting_started_with_ocaml_on_red_hat_and_fedora



From rjones at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 08:17:48 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:17:48 +0100
Subject: Saving space on the DVD
In-Reply-To: <1240081453.3731.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1239842774.3622.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<8278b1b0904151835u63d33e5dwa765cab2ca5ebec6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1239847229.3622.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090416022739.GO1231266@hiwaay.net>
	<20090416024450.A2BEDFC3C6@magilla.sf.frob.com>
	<1239852987.3763.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240081453.3731.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090420081748.GA20786@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 02:04:13PM -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> What jigdo really needs is it's own userspace ISO implementation. A
> minimal implementation good enough to pull files out shouldn't be that
> hard. Maybe gnome-vfs could be used...

Hmmm:

http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/libguestfs/

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
New in Fedora 11: Fedora Windows cross-compiler. Compile Windows
programs, test, and build Windows installers. Over 70 libraries supprt'd
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MinGW http://www.annexia.org/fedora_mingw



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 08:17:26 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 04:17:26 -0400
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <200904200222.15188.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com> 
	<200904200222.15188.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904200117x1b1e1a6ewb73c5d27f0a2eb99@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Suren Karapetyan  wrote:
> On Wednesday 08 April 2009 01:31:41 Paul Wouters wrote:
>> +1 for reverting to the old behaviour of having ctrl-alt-backspace kill
>> the current X session.
>>
>> Paul
>
> Time for some stats.
> >From all the people who replied to this thread:
> 19 were for reverting the change, 1 of them from RH.
> 7 were for keeping the change, 5 of them from RH.
> And a lot of others who were neutral (at least I couldn't decide on which side
> they were).
>

That makes me wonder if having pushed ctrl+alt+backspace accidentally
at least once is an employment criteria at Redhat.

Or maybe it's coincidence.

Orcan



From rjones at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 08:22:43 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:22:43 +0100
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 06:43:10PM -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> This is a dilemma we have in Fedora. I have no idea why someone would
> want to keep the devel subpackages of the same package with different
> archs installed.

Because one wants to compile with 'gcc -m32'.  This is very useful
when you have virtualization.

Unfortunately the more I look at multilib, the more totally broken it
seems to be.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines.  Tiny program with many
powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top



From triad at df.lth.se  Mon Apr 20 08:34:05 2009
From: triad at df.lth.se (Linus Walleij)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:34:05 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0904201023160.11709@mer.df.lth.se>

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009, Bj?rn Persson wrote:

> I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand. How
> strict are the requirements on the format of changelog entries?

RPMlint should be your friend. It yells at you if you do something 
wrong.

> Are they meant to be machine-readable?
> (...)
> So far, RPMlint has told me that each entry must start with an asterisk and
> that the international standard date format is bad. Can I trust that the
> format is OK if RPMlint doesn't complain?

Should be so I think, since RPMlint is a machine, it's definately supposed 
to be machine-readable anyway since RPMlint is something we support.

There is also an RPM spec edit mode in Eclipse that Red Hat guys put in at 
some point I think, it should format the log according to some rules too.

But you're right: I've never seen a spec for this log either.

Linus



From ml at kiewel-online.ch  Mon Apr 20 08:42:13 2009
From: ml at kiewel-online.ch (Uwe Kiewel)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:42:13 +0200
Subject: debugging crontab
In-Reply-To: <1240179482.3210.10.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240171168.3210.3.camel@choeger6>	<49EB9053.8050503@kiewel-online.ch>
	<1240179482.3210.10.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <49EC3565.8050600@kiewel-online.ch>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Christoph H?ger wrote:
> Am Sonntag, den 19.04.2009, 22:57 +0200 schrieb Uwe Kiewel:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Christoph H?ger wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> I've got a problem with my offlineimap setup under f11 (under f9 and f10
>>> it works well):
>>>
>>> I have: 
>>> */5 * * * * DISPLAY=:0.0 /usr/bin/offlineimap -u Gnome.GnomeUI /dev/null
>>> 2>&1 #JOB_ID_1
>>>
>> Is there a ">" missing between Gnone.GnomeUI and /dev/null in your command?
>>
>> In an ober case remove the output redirection to /dev/null. Cron will
>> generate an email with the output of the cronjob.
> 
> Yeah, I did that. But the stdout and stderr do not provide useful
> information. So basically I need a way to figure out what's different
> between a cron invokation and a manual call of python.
> Any ideas?
> 
I the past I have had a simmilar problem. The job was running fine at
cmd line but failed at cron. So, the problem was the cron environment,
e.g. library path, general path, etc.

Loot at the full mail header of a cron email and search for X-Cron lines
to check.

HTH,
	Uwe
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From mjg at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 08:44:50 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:44:50 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49EC0E92.2050801@freenet.de>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net> <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de>
	<20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
	<49EC0E92.2050801@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20090420084450.GA25888@srcf.ucam.org>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 07:56:34AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Matthew Garrett wrote:
> >On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 07:02:20PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> >>Abusing the Fedora as Guinea pigs, as they've done many times before.
> >
> >By doing the change upstream?
> >
> 
> When "upstreams" are identical to the fedora maintainers, the "upstream 
> argument" is moot. They are in a position to commit any stupidity they 
> want upstream and label it "upstream decsion".

I think that basically all the Fedora X maintainers are upstream - 
however, not all of upstream are Fedora X maintainers.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From felix at fetzig.org  Mon Apr 20 08:52:57 2009
From: felix at fetzig.org (Felix Kaechele)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:52:57 +0200
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
Message-ID: <49EC37E9.1070206@fetzig.org>

Am 19.04.2009 23:32, schrieb Bj?rn Persson:
> I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand.

Well you could start using rpmdev-bumpspec.

Felix



From jan.kratochvil at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 09:14:21 2009
From: jan.kratochvil at redhat.com (Jan Kratochvil)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:14:21 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0904191507h3ca6fbe6h801f6b676cd7f4c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<3170f42f0904191507h3ca6fbe6h801f6b676cd7f4c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090420091421.GA9498@host0.dyn.jankratochvil.net>

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 00:07:25 +0200, Debarshi Ray wrote:
> > Owner ? Package
> > ===== ? =======
> > rakesh ?coredumper
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496523
> 
> I poked at this one a bit, and it looks related to post-f10 changes in
> GDB. I am not familiar with those changes,

yes, recent GDB has changed its output so the coredumper's testcase needs an
update (attached to that Bug).


Thanks,
Jan



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 09:22:43 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:52:43 +0530
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <20090420091421.GA9498@host0.dyn.jankratochvil.net>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<3170f42f0904191507h3ca6fbe6h801f6b676cd7f4c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420091421.GA9498@host0.dyn.jankratochvil.net>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904200222u6ac5eb76sc6f0bd9a1e85f047@mail.gmail.com>

> yes, recent GDB has changed its output so the coredumper's testcase needs an
> update (attached to that Bug).

Thanks a lot. :-)

Cheers,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From pavel.lisy at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 10:16:28 2009
From: pavel.lisy at gmail.com (Pavel Lisy)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:16:28 +0200
Subject: How can I update package for EPEL4/5
In-Reply-To: <200904191623.25537.dennis@ausil.us>
References: <1240175210.4292.15.camel@pali-ntb.hk.tmapy.cz>
	<200904191623.25537.dennis@ausil.us>
Message-ID: <1240222588.32202.68.camel@pali-pc.hk.tmapy.cz>

Dennis Gilmore p??e v Ne 19. 04. 2009 v 16:23 -0500:
> On Sunday 19 April 2009 04:06:50 pm Pavel Lis? wrote:
> > I have made new build of cherokee package (through plague-client)
> >
> > http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-4-epel/2042-cherokee-0.99.0-1
> >.el4/
> > http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-5-epel/2043-cherokee-0.99.0-1
> >.el5/
> >
> > but I don't know how to push it to repository. I've tried this:
> >
> > bodhi --new --release=EL-5 --type=enhancement --comment "update to
> > latest stable version" --request=stable cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5
> >
> > but I've received:
> > Creating a new update for cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5
> > data = {'tg_flash': 'Invalid build: cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5'}
> > Invalid build: cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5
> >
> > In web interface (https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/) is no EL-4,
> > EL-5, does it mean there is no web interface for EPEL update system?
> >
> > Pavel
> It happens automatically in EPEL right now.

But not in my case. 

I've made successful build 
http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-4-epel/2042-cherokee-0.99.0-1.el4/
http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-5-epel/2043-cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5/

But there is nothing in 
http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/epel/4/x86_64/repoview/cherokee.html
http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/epel/5/x86_64/repoview/cherokee.html

How can I solve it?

Pavel

> 
-- 
Pavel Lisy <pavel.lisy at gmail.com>



From belegdol at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 10:17:21 2009
From: belegdol at gmail.com (Julian Sikorski)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:17:21 +0200
Subject: runtime dependencies on .so symlinks
Message-ID: <gshi3h$1qb$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hello,

I have recently submitted a WIP EMBOSS package for review [1]. During
further hacking, it turns that the java ui requires the .so symlinks in
order to work properly (these are currently placed in a devel package).
What is the proper way to handle such situation? Just place the symlinks
in the main package (or -libs subpackage, in this case)? Thanks in advance,

Julian

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496133



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 10:30:15 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:30:15 +0200
Subject: runtime dependencies on .so symlinks
In-Reply-To: <gshi3h$1qb$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gshi3h$1qb$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090420123015.35c26c93@faldor.intranet>

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:17:21 +0200, Julian wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I have recently submitted a WIP EMBOSS package for review [1]. During
> further hacking, it turns that the java ui requires the .so symlinks in
> order to work properly (these are currently placed in a devel package).
> What is the proper way to handle such situation? Just place the symlinks
> in the main package (or -libs subpackage, in this case)? Thanks in advance,
> 
> Julian
> 
> [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496133

Why did you put the .so symlinks into the -devel package if you do know
that they are needed at run-time? The better alternative is to patch the
app and make it load the version shared library files.



From ovasik at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 10:31:31 2009
From: ovasik at redhat.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ond=C5=99ej_Va=C5=A1=C3=ADk?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:31:31 +0200
Subject: dot on end of permissions - something new?
In-Reply-To: <1240140527.11955.1.camel@prague>
References: <1240140527.11955.1.camel@prague>
Message-ID: <1240223491.3859.12.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com>

Hello,

nodata wrote:
> # ls -lad /root
> drwxr-x---. 35 root root 4096 19. Apr 11:11 /root/
> 
> ???------^^^
> 
> What does this dot mean?

Just to summarize history: Upstream of coreutils marked all files with
SELinux context with '+' starting with 6.10 release. As SELinux enabled
is default in Fedora and ls is the easiest way how to recognize files
with ACL's, it was reported as rhbz #430779 in Jan 2008, so the '+' was
removed in Fedora for files with SELinux context only - as temporary
solution. Similar bugzilla was reported in Debian and coreutils upstream
changed the behaviour to show '.' for files with SELinux context only
for 7.0 release, as marking them is required by POSIX. 

Greetings,
         Ondrej Vasik
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From belegdol at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 10:36:18 2009
From: belegdol at gmail.com (Julian Sikorski)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:36:18 +0200
Subject: runtime dependencies on .so symlinks
In-Reply-To: <20090420123015.35c26c93@faldor.intranet>
References: <gshi3h$1qb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090420123015.35c26c93@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <gshj72$4rn$1@ger.gmane.org>

Michael Schwendt pisze:
> On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:17:21 +0200, Julian wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have recently submitted a WIP EMBOSS package for review [1]. During
>> further hacking, it turns that the java ui requires the .so symlinks in
>> order to work properly (these are currently placed in a devel package).
>> What is the proper way to handle such situation? Just place the symlinks
>> in the main package (or -libs subpackage, in this case)? Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Julian
>>
>> [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496133
> 
> Why did you put the .so symlinks into the -devel package if you do know
> that they are needed at run-time? The better alternative is to patch the
> app and make it load the version shared library files.
> 
Well, I didn't, I just discovered that yesterday :). As I said before,
the RPM is still WIP, but I posted it for review anyway to avoid
duplicating work (it's in the bioinformatics wishlist).

Julian



From hughsient at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 10:52:21 2009
From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:52:21 +0100
Subject: PackageKit and Presto
In-Reply-To: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
References: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <1240224741.20721.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 10:26 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> So I though I'd ask. Is anyone working on this? Should I expect it to
> be working at F11 GA?

I've pushed a fix and asked for the build to be tagged here:
https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/1542

I'm also quite surprised we turned this on by default post-devel freeze.

Richard.




From dr.diesel at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 11:05:12 2009
From: dr.diesel at gmail.com (Dr. Diesel)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 06:05:12 -0500
Subject: PackageKit and Presto
In-Reply-To: <1240224741.20721.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
	<1240224741.20721.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <2a28d2ab0904200405j59e62c5dv491fb95dc0a58522@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 5:52 AM, Richard Hughes <hughsient at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 10:26 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> > So I though I'd ask. Is anyone working on this? Should I expect it to
> > be working at F11 GA?
>
> I've pushed a fix and asked for the build to be tagged here:
> https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/1542
>
> I'm also quite surprised we turned this on by default post-devel freeze.
>
> Richard.



This question was asked on March 29th, no one objected.  Worth the effort
IMO.



-- 
projecthuh.com
All of my bits are free, are yours?  Fedoraproject.org
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From markg85 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 11:16:34 2009
From: markg85 at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:16:34 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <20090420084450.GA25888@srcf.ucam.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de> <20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
	<49EC0E92.2050801@freenet.de> <20090420084450.GA25888@srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <6e24a8e80904200416k775ef1e4jd5dfe7c75c4d36b3@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Matthew Garrett <mjg at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 07:56:34AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> Matthew Garrett wrote:
>> >On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 07:02:20PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> >>Abusing the Fedora as Guinea pigs, as they've done many times before.
>> >
>> >By doing the change upstream?
>> >
>>
>> When "upstreams" are identical to the fedora maintainers, the "upstream
>> argument" is moot. They are in a position to commit any stupidity they
>> want upstream and label it "upstream decsion".
>
> I think that basically all the Fedora X maintainers are upstream -
> however, not all of upstream are Fedora X maintainers.

Just one question.

How can fedora ever be objective about an issue like this if: (quote)
"all the Fedora X maintainers are upstream"

.... ? i'm interested in your reply on this one. (and a reply from all
RH/fedora ppl in this thread btw)



From mcepl at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 11:24:31 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:24:31 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<20090417125428.GC1322964@hiwaay.net> <gsb2ht$qsb$4@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090417232445.GB31693@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240029687.14173.39.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <fk2ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-18, 04:41 GMT, Adam Williamson wrote:
> oh, yes, because EVERYTHING builds with autotools. *sigh*

Of course, or at least it SHOULD ;-)

Mat?j



From mcepl at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 11:36:12 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:36:12 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-16, 23:58 GMT, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /. 

I have this in /:

bin         The Right Thing to have
dev         The Right Thing to have
home        The Right Thing to have
lib64       Oh well, multilib junk
media       mostly empty, somehow good to have
opt         empty, could be useful for some weirdos
root        hmm, why don't we have /home/root ?
selinux     shouldn't it be /sys/selinux ?
sys         hopeless effort to eliminate /proc
usr
boot        necessary for many booting scenarios
etc         The Right Thing to have
lib         probably as well
lost+found  FS related
mnt         historical reasons, conflicts with /media
proc        The Right Thing to have
sbin        probably good to have
srv         good for servers, we should suppport it more IMHO
tmp         The Right Thing to have
var         The Right Thing to have

I see only /selinux and /sys as strange (and probably needless), 
/opt questionable, and /mnt and /media as conflicting; otherwise, 
I don't see big push to root.

What are you talking about?

Mat?j



From fedora at matbooth.co.uk  Mon Apr 20 12:23:31 2009
From: fedora at matbooth.co.uk (Mat Booth)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:23:31 +0100
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
Message-ID: <9497e9990904200523i303c1ca8qeef4c004fabd0d62@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/19 Bj?rn Persson <bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>:
> I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand. How
> strict are the requirements on the format of changelog entries? Are they
> meant to be machine-readable? Is the format specified anywhere? The packaging
> guidelines document contains four examples. Examples are good but they're no
> replacement for a specification.
>
> So far, RPMlint has told me that each entry must start with an asterisk and
> that the international standard date format is bad. Can I trust that the
> format is OK if RPMlint doesn't complain?
>
> Bj?rn Persson
>

Check out the packaging guidelines:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Changelogs


-- 
Mat Booth
www.matbooth.co.uk



From fedora at matbooth.co.uk  Mon Apr 20 12:37:24 2009
From: fedora at matbooth.co.uk (Mat Booth)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:37:24 +0100
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <9497e9990904200537q3186d8aaq329a2326ddf875c8@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Matej Cepl <mcepl at redhat.com> wrote:
> opt ? ? ? ? empty, could be useful for some weirdos
>
> I see only /selinux and /sys as strange (and probably needless),
> /opt questionable, and /mnt and /media as conflicting; otherwise,
> I don't see big push to root.
>

All of our commercial products install into /opt. We may indeed be
wierdos, but I thought we doing the Right Thing... Aren't we?


-- 
Mat Booth
www.matbooth.co.uk



From mjg at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 12:45:06 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:45:06 +0100
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904200416k775ef1e4jd5dfe7c75c4d36b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<49E8B61C.9080706@freenet.de>
	<20090417181744.GA18599@srcf.ucam.org>
	<49EC0E92.2050801@freenet.de>
	<20090420084450.GA25888@srcf.ucam.org>
	<6e24a8e80904200416k775ef1e4jd5dfe7c75c4d36b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090420124506.GA29295@srcf.ucam.org>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 01:16:34PM +0200, Mark wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Matthew Garrett <mjg at redhat.com> wrote:
> > I think that basically all the Fedora X maintainers are upstream -
> > however, not all of upstream are Fedora X maintainers.
> 
> Just one question.
> 
> How can fedora ever be objective about an issue like this if: (quote)
> "all the Fedora X maintainers are upstream"
> 
> .... ? i'm interested in your reply on this one. (and a reply from all
> RH/fedora ppl in this thread btw)

What do you mean by objective? It's the role of package maintainers to 
do their best at ensuring that the software works well in Fedora and is 
as bug free as possible. It's not the role of package mantainers to make 
changes that they disagree with, no matter how many users ask for them.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Mon Apr 20 13:16:10 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:16:10 +0200
Subject: gnome keyring daemon from cron job
Message-ID: <1240233370.19276.2.camel@choeger6>

Hi,

so I debugged my crontab problem and came down to the following issue:

invoking something like:

import gnomekeyring as gkey

if __name__ == "__main__":
    gkey.get_default_keyring_sync()
    print "got keyring"


from a normal shell works perfectly. 
Invoked from a cron job (with DISPLAY=:0.0 set) returns a NoKeyring
Error.
This used to work under f9/10, but stopped working in rawhide.

Is this a bug or a feature?

thanks

christoph
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From dtimms at iinet.net.au  Mon Apr 20 13:45:03 2009
From: dtimms at iinet.net.au (David Timms)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:45:03 +1000
Subject: evolution junk mail doesn't go to junk folder right away
In-Reply-To: <1240143302.8967.20.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
References: <1240143302.8967.20.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
Message-ID: <49EC7C5F.40005@iinet.net.au>

Mike Chambers wrote:
> Wanted to see if it was just me or if anyone else was having this
> problem.  And one thing wanted to add, is I always restore a previous
> outlook profile (using the backup/restore methods of evo) when I do
> fresh install.
> 
> Anyway, the problem I see is, if I have a single email in my inbox, and
> I hit the junk button, it doesn't go away right then and there.
> Actually not sure if it even goes away at all if I just waited.
And the duration you waited = ?

> I
> usually have to click on another folder, go back and click on the inbox
> to see if it's gone.  And even at that, most of the time I have a
> message bout the email not being able to be viewed/read or whatever, and
> have to click on another folder and inbox again to see it gone.  But
> with multiple emails, if you junk them, they go away.  It's just the
> last one that causes the problem.  And I swear I have seen this before,
> just can't remember how long ago.
As a tester, you probably could have noted what distro-release and 
evo-release you are seeing this with, and whether this issue has only 
just started to occur. (and it sounds more like a fedora-test or fedora 
list query). You also didn't mention whether you searched bugzilla, and 
or evolution bugzilla, so I'd suggest perusing those before continuing 
discussion on one of the aforementioned lists.

Cheers,

DaveT.



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Mon Apr 20 13:49:33 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:49:33 +0200
Subject: gnome keyring daemon from cron job
In-Reply-To: <1240233370.19276.2.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240233370.19276.2.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <1240235373.19436.0.camel@choeger6>

Ok, it seems that DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADRESS is not set.

What has changed between the releases?

(and does anyone have _any_ ideas how to fix that?)
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From jreiser at BitWagon.com  Mon Apr 20 14:03:32 2009
From: jreiser at BitWagon.com (John Reiser)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:03:32 -0700
Subject: dot on end of permissions - something new?
In-Reply-To: <1240223491.3859.12.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com>
References: <1240140527.11955.1.camel@prague>
	<1240223491.3859.12.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49EC80B4.80304@BitWagon.com>

>> # ls -lad /root
>> drwxr-x---. 35 root root 4096 19. Apr 11:11 /root/
>>
>> ???------^^^
>>
>> What does this dot mean?
> 
> Just to summarize history: Upstream of coreutils marked all files with
> SELinux context with '+' starting with 6.10 release. As SELinux enabled
> is default in Fedora and ls is the easiest way how to recognize files
> with ACL's, it was reported as rhbz #430779 in Jan 2008, so the '+' was
> removed in Fedora for files with SELinux context only - as temporary
> solution. Similar bugzilla was reported in Debian and coreutils upstream
> changed the behaviour to show '.' for files with SELinux context only
> for 7.0 release, as marking them is required by POSIX. 

That summary is incomplete because it does not mention that '+' (plus sign)
in Fedora now means "has ACLs, too".

    ' ' (blank)  no SELinux coverage
    '.' (dot)    ordinary SELinux context only
    '+' (plus)   SELinux ACLs or other things beyond ordinary context

-- 



From itamar at ispbrasil.com.br  Mon Apr 20 14:05:31 2009
From: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br (Itamar Reis Peixoto)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:05:31 -0300
Subject: system-config-lvm sources
In-Reply-To: <ufay6u9ww4c.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>
References: <d3ceea380904090937j1927a781y6f5f54ba3573a9ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.10.0904091244360.26816@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d3ceea380904091011n59554afdl331b1827680359bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<29792.1239297590@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<d3ceea380904091024t479616a9u474e1fe1f597489@mail.gmail.com>
	<ufay6u9ww4c.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <d3ceea380904200705k4b0868e3ue7a99b1b0bb09f62@mail.gmail.com>

thats true

my question is where are the upstream sources ?



On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs at math.uh.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> "IRP" == Itamar Reis Peixoto <itamar at ispbrasil.com.br> writes:
>
> IRP> thats true, there are a cvs, git, svn or something to get the
> IRP> lasted sources ? where are the development version ?
> IRP> how to send a patch to system-config-lvm ?
>
> For what it's worth, system-config-lvm is at least in violation of
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/SourceURL and should not have
> passed its merge review as-is. ?The merge review ticket is
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=226462
>
> ?- J<
>
> --




-- 
------------

Itamar Reis Peixoto

e-mail/msn: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
sip: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
skype: itamarjp
icq: 81053601
+55 11 4063 5033
+55 34 3221 8599



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 20 14:11:46 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:11:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090420 changes
Message-ID: <20090420141146.27FE51F81F9@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Mon Apr 20 06:15:05 UTC 2009

Updated Packages:

exiv2-0.18.1-1.fc11
-------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 0.18.1-1
- exiv2-0.18.1
- drop -fvisibility-inlines-hidden (#496050)


f-spot-0.5.0.3-8.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 18 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.5.0.3-8
- Avoid showing f-spot twice for photo imports
- Make f-spot-import work with gvfs


gnome-bluetooth-2.27.4-3.fc11
-----------------------------
* Sat Apr 18 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.27.4-3
- Add padding to the wizard

* Thu Apr 16 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.27.4-2
- Require the PA Bluetooth plugins


gnome-games-2.26.1-2.fc11
-------------------------
* Sat Apr 18 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.1-2
- Fix up some missing figures in the same-gnome manual (#496376)


gthumb-2.10.11-4.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 18 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.10.11-4
- Don't install two desktop files for photo import


pyxmlsec-0.3.0-3.fc11
---------------------
* Sun Apr 19 2009 Lubomir Rintel (Good Data) <lubo.rintel at gooddata.com> - 0.3.0-3
- bcond the cryptography backend, default to OpenSSL


vdr-1.6.0-21.fc11
-----------------
* Sat Apr 18 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 1.6.0-21
- Use videodir from /etc/sysconfig/vdr if set in vdr-moveto.sh.


Summary:
Added Packages: 0
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 7
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)





From dennis at ausil.us  Mon Apr 20 14:16:34 2009
From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:16:34 -0500
Subject: How can I update package for EPEL4/5
In-Reply-To: <1240222588.32202.68.camel@pali-pc.hk.tmapy.cz>
References: <1240175210.4292.15.camel@pali-ntb.hk.tmapy.cz>
	<200904191623.25537.dennis@ausil.us>
	<1240222588.32202.68.camel@pali-pc.hk.tmapy.cz>
Message-ID: <200904200933.38194.dennis@ausil.us>

On Monday 20 April 2009 05:16:28 am Pavel Lisy wrote:
> Dennis Gilmore p??e v Ne 19. 04. 2009 v 16:23 -0500:
> > On Sunday 19 April 2009 04:06:50 pm Pavel Lis? wrote:
> > > I have made new build of cherokee package (through plague-client)
> > >
> > > http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-4-epel/2042-cherokee-0.99
> > >.0-1 .el4/
> > > http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-5-epel/2043-cherokee-0.99
> > >.0-1 .el5/
> > >
> > > but I don't know how to push it to repository. I've tried this:
> > >
> > > bodhi --new --release=EL-5 --type=enhancement --comment "update to
> > > latest stable version" --request=stable cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5
> > >
> > > but I've received:
> > > Creating a new update for cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5
> > > data = {'tg_flash': 'Invalid build: cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5'}
> > > Invalid build: cherokee-0.99.0-1.el5
> > >
> > > In web interface (https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/) is no EL-4,
> > > EL-5, does it mean there is no web interface for EPEL update system?
> > >
> > > Pavel
> >
> > It happens automatically in EPEL right now.
>
> But not in my case.
>
> I've made successful build
> http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-4-epel/2042-cherokee-0.99.0-1
>.el4/
> http://buildsys.fedoraproject.org/logs/fedora-5-epel/2043-cherokee-0.99.0-1
>.el5/
>
> But there is nothing in
> http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/epel/4/x86_64/repoview/cherokee.html
> http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/epel/5/x86_64/repoview/cherokee.html
>
> How can I solve it?
>
> Pavel

There is nothing you can do.  In the next push it will go to epel-testing  it 
will sit there for ~ 1 month  where it will then be pushed into the epel 
stable repo.




From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Mon Apr 20 14:40:34 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:40:34 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <20090420144034.GA17649@tango.0pointer.de>

On Mon, 20.04.09 13:36, Matej Cepl (mcepl at redhat.com) wrote:

> 
> On 2009-04-16, 23:58 GMT, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /. 
> 
> I have this in /:
> 
> bin         The Right Thing to have
> dev         The Right Thing to have
> home        The Right Thing to have
> lib64       Oh well, multilib junk
> media       mostly empty, somehow good to have
> opt         empty, could be useful for some weirdos
> root        hmm, why don't we have /home/root ?
> selinux     shouldn't it be /sys/selinux ?
> sys         hopeless effort to eliminate /proc
> usr
> boot        necessary for many booting scenarios
> etc         The Right Thing to have
> lib         probably as well
> lost+found  FS related
> mnt         historical reasons, conflicts with /media
> proc        The Right Thing to have
> sbin        probably good to have
> srv         good for servers, we should suppport it more IMHO
> tmp         The Right Thing to have
> var         The Right Thing to have
> 
> I see only /selinux and /sys as strange (and probably needless), 
> /opt questionable, and /mnt and /media as conflicting; otherwise, 
> I don't see big push to root.
> 
> What are you talking about?

Nowadays stuff like dbus, glib, libpng, the ALSA libs, ... install in
/. That's what I mean.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From ich at frank-schmitt.net  Mon Apr 20 15:03:52 2009
From: ich at frank-schmitt.net (Frank Schmitt)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:03:52 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<20090420144034.GA17649@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <m3bpqrpdt3.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>

Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> writes:

> Nowadays stuff like dbus, glib, libpng, the ALSA libs, ... install in
> /. That's what I mean.

No, they don't. They install in /usr.

-- 
Have you ever considered how much text can fit in eighty columns?  Given that a
signature typically contains up to four lines of text, this space allows you to
attach a tremendous amount of valuable information to your messages.  Seize the
opportunity and don't waste your signature on bullshit that nobody cares about.



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Mon Apr 20 15:15:49 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:15:49 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <m3bpqrpdt3.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<20090420144034.GA17649@tango.0pointer.de>
	<m3bpqrpdt3.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
Message-ID: <20090420151549.GB20317@tango.0pointer.de>

On Mon, 20.04.09 17:03, Frank Schmitt (ich at frank-schmitt.net) wrote:

> 
> Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> writes:
> 
> > Nowadays stuff like dbus, glib, libpng, the ALSA libs, ... install in
> > /. That's what I mean.
> 
> No, they don't. They install in /usr.

They do:

395 [lennart at omega] ~$ ls /lib64/libdbus* /lib64/libpng* /lib64/libglib* /lib64/libasound* | cat
/lib64/libasound.so.2@
/lib64/libasound.so.2.0.0*
/lib64/libdbus-1.so@
/lib64/libdbus-1.so.3@
/lib64/libdbus-1.so.3.4.0*
/lib64/libglib-2.0.so.0@
/lib64/libglib-2.0.so.0.2000.1*
/lib64/libpng12.so@
/lib64/libpng12.so.0@
/lib64/libpng12.so.0.31.0*
/lib64/libpng.so@
/lib64/libpng.so.3@
/lib64/libpng.so.3.31.0*

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From xjakub at fi.muni.cz  Mon Apr 20 15:21:23 2009
From: xjakub at fi.muni.cz (Milos Jakubicek)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:21:23 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EC92F3.4090107@fi.muni.cz>

Hi,

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11
> 
> The list from bill is a bit light.  I've re-ran my needed rebuild script
> and it is at http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html
> 
> 

I looked at some of them, here are the results:

1)

Fixed:
kdetv
cone
showimg
ruby-ldap
boo
+
gnome-specimen
seedit
where no changes were necessary (no clue why they two failed in February)

(will request a freeze break for all of them later)

2)

Regarding avr-libc: the package fails just because of the 
binary-in-noarch check, although it is noarch obviously:
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1306596
Forcing noarch by overriding:

%global _binaries_in_noarch_packages_terminate_build 0

solves the problem, but before building it, I'd like somebody to ensure 
me that this is indeed the right way to go...

3)

I also succeeded in building busybox on i586, x86_64 and ppc, but ppc64 
is still failing, see the scratch builds:

https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1306569
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1306050 (ppc64 failure)

4)
Jesse, could you regenerate the list please?

+ Would it be possible to kick all the rest of the failures to build 
once more? The logs from February are gone, hence one has always to do a 
scratch build first to see what's going on anyway...

Regards,
Milos



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Mon Apr 20 15:27:14 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:27:14 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090420151549.GB20317@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>	<20090420144034.GA17649@tango.0pointer.de>	<m3bpqrpdt3.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<20090420151549.GB20317@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49EC9452.3050505@freenet.de>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Mon, 20.04.09 17:03, Frank Schmitt (ich at frank-schmitt.net) wrote:
> 
>> Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> writes:
>>
>>> Nowadays stuff like dbus, glib, libpng, the ALSA libs, ... install in
>>> /. That's what I mean.
>> No, they don't. They install in /usr.
> 
> They do:
> 
> 395 [lennart at omega] ~$ ls /lib64/libdbus* /lib64/libpng* /lib64/libglib* /lib64/libasound* | cat
> /lib64/libasound.so.2@
> /lib64/libasound.so.2.0.0*
> /lib64/libdbus-1.so@
> /lib64/libdbus-1.so.3@
> /lib64/libdbus-1.so.3.4.0*
> /lib64/libglib-2.0.so.0@
> /lib64/libglib-2.0.so.0.2000.1*
> /lib64/libpng12.so@
> /lib64/libpng12.so.0@
> /lib64/libpng12.so.0.31.0*
> /lib64/libpng.so@
> /lib64/libpng.so.3@
> /lib64/libpng.so.3.31.0*

They install their "essential run-time libraries" to / but install to 
/usr otherwise.

The libpng stuff contained in your listing, however, looks pretty much 
as a mispackaged package to me.

Ralf



From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Mon Apr 20 15:28:20 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:28:20 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090420144034.GA17649@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<20090420144034.GA17649@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <20090420152820.GB1407792@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> said:
> Nowadays stuff like dbus, glib, libpng, the ALSA libs, ... install in
> /. That's what I mean.

dbus is meant to be a system bus, so the library is in / because it may
be needed early.

libpng is installed in /usr.

The bsae ALSA shared library is installed in /lib (or /lib64).
Everything else (tools, card data, plugins, etc.) is in /usr.

-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com  Mon Apr 20 15:30:22 2009
From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:30:22 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <49EC92F3.4090107@fi.muni.cz>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EC92F3.4090107@fi.muni.cz>
Message-ID: <1240241422.3337.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Montag, den 20.04.2009, 17:21 +0200 schrieb Milos Jakubicek:

> Jesse, could you regenerate the list please?

It's automatically being regenerated.

Regards,
Christoph



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Mon Apr 20 15:32:16 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:32:16 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49EC9452.3050505@freenet.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<20090420144034.GA17649@tango.0pointer.de>
	<m3bpqrpdt3.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<20090420151549.GB20317@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49EC9452.3050505@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20090420153216.GA22444@tango.0pointer.de>

On Mon, 20.04.09 17:27, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203 at freenet.de) wrote:

> They install their "essential run-time libraries" to / but install to  
> /usr otherwise.
>
> The libpng stuff contained in your listing, however, looks pretty much  
> as a mispackaged package to me.

No, they are not mispackaged. They all are needed during early bootup.

It's all due to the pointless separation of / and /usr.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Mon Apr 20 15:33:12 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:33:12 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090420152820.GB1407792@hiwaay.net>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<20090420144034.GA17649@tango.0pointer.de>
	<20090420152820.GB1407792@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <20090420153312.GB22444@tango.0pointer.de>

On Mon, 20.04.09 10:28, Chris Adams (cmadams at hiwaay.net) wrote:

> 
> Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> said:
> > Nowadays stuff like dbus, glib, libpng, the ALSA libs, ... install in
> > /. That's what I mean.
> 
> dbus is meant to be a system bus, so the library is in / because it may
> be needed early.
> 
> libpng is installed in /usr.

Is that so? It's not on my machine.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Mon Apr 20 15:38:47 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:38:47 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090420153312.GB22444@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<20090420144034.GA17649@tango.0pointer.de>
	<20090420152820.GB1407792@hiwaay.net>
	<20090420153312.GB22444@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <20090420153847.GC1407792@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> said:
> On Mon, 20.04.09 10:28, Chris Adams (cmadams at hiwaay.net) wrote:
> > libpng is installed in /usr.
> 
> Is that so? It's not on my machine.

What does "rpm -qif /lib*/libpng*" say?

I just checked Fedora 9 (release and updates), Fedora 10 (release and
updates), 11-Alpha, 11-Beta, and rawhide, and none have a libpng in /lib
or /lib64.

-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From xjakub at fi.muni.cz  Mon Apr 20 15:50:56 2009
From: xjakub at fi.muni.cz (Milos Jakubicek)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:50:56 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240241422.3337.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EC92F3.4090107@fi.muni.cz>
	<1240241422.3337.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EC99E0.4030005@fi.muni.cz>

Christoph Wickert napsal(a):
> Am Montag, den 20.04.2009, 17:21 +0200 schrieb Milos Jakubicek:
> 
>> Jesse, could you regenerate the list please?
> 
> It's automatically being regenerated.
> 

Are you sure? And does it search for packages just built for dist-f11 or 
do they have to be tagged to get off the list?

--
Milos



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 15:54:43 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:54:43 +0100
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904200854ra4a7d4ct216df21197aab028@mail.gmail.com>

>> The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11
>
> The list from bill is a bit light. ?I've re-ran my needed rebuild script
> and it is at http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html

It seems that celt was tagged as part of the rebuild but koji doesn't
have a record of the rebuild. I've rebuilt the package and will open a
ticket to get it into the release.

Build is http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=83146

Peter



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Mon Apr 20 15:55:40 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:55:40 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090420153216.GA22444@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>	<20090420144034.GA17649@tango.0pointer.de>	<m3bpqrpdt3.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>	<20090420151549.GB20317@tango.0pointer.de>	<49EC9452.3050505@freenet.de>
	<20090420153216.GA22444@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49EC9AFC.1030500@freenet.de>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Mon, 20.04.09 17:27, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203 at freenet.de) wrote:
> 
>> They install their "essential run-time libraries" to / but install to  
>> /usr otherwise.
>>
>> The libpng stuff contained in your listing, however, looks pretty much  
>> as a mispackaged package to me.
> 
> No, they are not mispackaged. They all are needed during early bootup.

These are bugs:
...
/lib64/libpng12.so@
...
/lib64/libpng.so@


These are develfiles and belong into /usr/lib64 as well as they must not 
be required at bootup.

> It's all due to the pointless separation of / and /usr.
No, these are packaging bugs, likely being introduced by 
under-experienced packages.

Ralf



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 20 15:57:55 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:57:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49EC9AFC.1030500@freenet.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<20090420144034.GA17649@tango.0pointer.de>
	<m3bpqrpdt3.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<20090420151549.GB20317@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49EC9452.3050505@freenet.de>
	<20090420153216.GA22444@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49EC9AFC.1030500@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904201156140.16334@localhost.localdomain>



On Mon, 20 Apr 2009, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

> Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> On Mon, 20.04.09 17:27, Ralf Corsepius (rc040203 at freenet.de) wrote:
>> 
>>> They install their "essential run-time libraries" to / but install to 
>>> /usr otherwise.
>>> 
>>> The libpng stuff contained in your listing, however, looks pretty much  as 
>>> a mispackaged package to me.
>> 
>> No, they are not mispackaged. They all are needed during early bootup.
>
> These are bugs:
> ...
> /lib64/libpng12.so@
> ...
> /lib64/libpng.so@
>
>


so I just ran:
# repoquery --repoid=rawhide -ql libpng
libpng-1.2.35-1.fc11.i586
/usr/lib/libpng.so.3
/usr/lib/libpng.so.3.35.0
/usr/lib/libpng12.so.0
/usr/lib/libpng12.so.0.35.0
/usr/share/doc/libpng-1.2.35
/usr/share/doc/libpng-1.2.35/CHANGES
/usr/share/doc/libpng-1.2.35/LICENSE
/usr/share/doc/libpng-1.2.35/README
/usr/share/doc/libpng-1.2.35/TODO
/usr/share/doc/libpng-1.2.35/example.c
/usr/share/doc/libpng-1.2.35/libpng-1.2.35.txt
/usr/share/man/man5/png.5.gz


looks like all the files are in /usr to me.

-sv



From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Mon Apr 20 16:03:21 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:03:21 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <gsi6c9$324$1@ger.gmane.org>

Matej Cepl wrote:
> On 2009-04-16, 23:58 GMT, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /. 
> 
> I have this in /:
> [...]
> root        hmm, why don't we have /home/root ?

...because /home might be NFS, and ~root should be local (sharing a 
~root is not likely a good idea, besides that the permissions would be 
messed up).

-- 
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
-- 
Here endeth the rant... which I realize is not likely to Win Friends or 
Influence People, especially the person to whom it was directed.
   -- Charles Wilson (generalized)



From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Mon Apr 20 16:20:10 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:20:10 -0500
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>	<49E789B0.8000602@ij.net>	<1239911405.14173.5.camel@adam.local.net>	<200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
Message-ID: <gsi7br$c93$1@ger.gmane.org>

Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> The important thing is that this removal can create problems for new 
> user of Linux. Why should we learn them to restart the whole machine 
> when it is not needed, and even may create extra data loss, and even 
> problems with the file system.

It occurs to me... has anyone considered that we are teaching users that 
GNU/Linux is just as bad as Windows with this change?

It used to be: no, no, this is *GNU/Linux*! An X crash isn't the total 
system failure it is in Windows, just hit c-a-bs and you're instantly 
back at your login.

Now we're making X problems into: yeah, you have to reboot, wait for the 
system to come back... oh, and wait for it to run scandi^Wfsck (and 
better pray the FS didn't get hosed)...

So much for GNU/Linux being better than Windows.

-- 
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
-- 
Here endeth the rant... which I realize is not likely to Win Friends or 
Influence People, especially the person to whom it was directed.
   -- Charles Wilson (generalized)



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Mon Apr 20 16:30:12 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:30:12 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <gsi6c9$324$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<gsi6c9$324$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49ECA314.3060406@freenet.de>

Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> Matej Cepl wrote:
>> On 2009-04-16, 23:58 GMT, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>> In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /. 
>>
>> I have this in /:
>> [...]
>> root        hmm, why don't we have /home/root ?
> 
> ...because /home might be NFS,

Fedora's gnome doesn't support NFS mounted homes ;)
c.f. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=436160

{Another case where @RH refuses to fix an apparent bug]

> and ~root should be local (sharing a 
> ~root is not likely a good idea, besides that the permissions would be 
> messed up).
ACK.

Ralf





From drago01 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 16:47:31 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:47:31 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49ECA314.3060406@freenet.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz> <gsi6c9$324$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49ECA314.3060406@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904200947q1f24d362t20460bd7bdcfd377@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:
> Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>>
>> Matej Cepl wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2009-04-16, 23:58 GMT, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /.
>>>
>>> I have this in /:
>>> [...]
>>> root ? ? ? ?hmm, why don't we have /home/root ?
>>
>> ...because /home might be NFS,
>
> Fedora's gnome doesn't support NFS mounted homes ;)
> c.f. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=436160

Err what? How is this related to "_Fedora's_" gnome rather to just gnome?
Also its not gnome does not support NFS mounted homes, but the trash
does not work in such a case.

But well that's a different topic.



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Mon Apr 20 16:57:43 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:57:43 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <f6ca9fed0904200947q1f24d362t20460bd7bdcfd377@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<gsi6c9$324$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49ECA314.3060406@freenet.de>
	<f6ca9fed0904200947q1f24d362t20460bd7bdcfd377@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49ECA987.2070801@freenet.de>

drago01 wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:
>> Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>>> Matej Cepl wrote:
>>>> On 2009-04-16, 23:58 GMT, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>>>> In the past more and more stuff has been moved from /usr to /.
>>>> I have this in /:
>>>> [...]
>>>> root        hmm, why don't we have /home/root ?
>>> ...because /home might be NFS,
>> Fedora's gnome doesn't support NFS mounted homes ;)
>> c.f. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=436160
> 
> Err what? How is this related to "_Fedora's_" gnome rather to just gnome?
It's the same issue as with Xorg - Upstream and Fedora are identical, 
with upstream abusing Fedora as Guinea pigs.

> Also its not gnome does not support NFS mounted homes, but the trash
> does not work in such a case.
Right, like other GNOME key components (e.g. gnome-session), it's trash 
handling is broken.

> But well that's a different topic.
Correct - (Lack of ) QA in Fedora is off-topic, here.

Ralf




From walters at verbum.org  Mon Apr 20 17:08:46 2009
From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:08:46 -0400
Subject: gnome keyring daemon from cron job
In-Reply-To: <1240235373.19436.0.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240233370.19276.2.camel@choeger6>
	<1240235373.19436.0.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <faa16b610904201008k66c22ad8kc3031c2c12b7e7ec@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/20 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>:
> Ok, it seems that DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADRESS is not set.
>
> What has changed between the releases?
>
> (and does anyone have _any_ ideas how to fix that?)

Basically cron has never been integrated with desktop infrastructure.
I'm not sure exactly why gnome-keyring worked before.

I think the most practical fix would be a cron patch that talks to
ConsoleKit (if available) to determine if there's a current login
session, and if there is, it reuses the infrastructure (X server,
dbus-daemon, etc).  If there is no login session, it spawns a bus (and
possibly a dummy vfb X server) for it.



From zcerza at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 17:11:42 2009
From: zcerza at redhat.com (Zack Cerza)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:11:42 -0400
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090417234849.GA1068@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49E80A31.1040000@freenet.de> <20090417133432.GA9790@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gsb1qc$qsb$2@ger.gmane.org> <20090417231113.GC29072@tango.0pointer.de>
	<604aa7910904171616t1fb3554asa27dfdd788a89a3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417232830.GC31693@tango.0pointer.de>
	<20090417233834.GB1177984@hiwaay.net>
	<20090417234849.GA1068@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240247502.28771.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 01:48 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 17.04.09 18:38, Chris Adams (cmadams at hiwaay.net) wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> said:
> > > However, no daemon should ever touch files in /etc automatically. That
> > > NM does that is pretty bad style. Instead resolv.conf should be
> > > replaced by a symlink to /var and manipulated there.
> > 
> > /etc is by standard for system configuration files.  It is unreasonable
> > to expect everything that needs to update system configuration to have
> > to know to remount read-write / (or /etc or whatever).  Making a bunch
> > of symlinks just to repoint configuration files out of the configuration
> > directory would be stupid.
> 
> You are overerstimating how much software actually touches /etc.
> 
> And what you call 'stupid' is pretty common sense everywhere except on
> Fedora as it seems.
> 
> You can do it on OpenSUSE:
> 
> http://en.opensuse.org/How-To_Make_the_root_filesystem_read-only

Above page contains lots of manual steps, like the following:

* move /etc/resolv.conf to /dev/shm/resolv.conf
# mv /etc/resolv.conf /dev/shm
* link /dev/shm/resolv.conf to /etc/resolv.conf
# ln -s /dev/shm/resolv.conf /etc/resolv.conf

So, if that's how "you can do it on OpenSUSE", I bet you could do it
similarly on Fedora today. If the OpenSUSE way is good enough for you,
then perhaps you could just write up a doc similar to theirs for Fedora.

That said, I don't personally care if /usr continues to exist. I also
didn't check the two links below.

> You can do it on Debian:
> 
> http://wiki.debian.org/ReadonlyRoot
> 
> You can do it on Gentoo:
> 
> http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/HOWTO_Read-only_root_filesystem
> 
> Lennart
> 
> -- 
> Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
> lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
> http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4
> 




From silfreed at silfreed.net  Mon Apr 20 17:16:26 2009
From: silfreed at silfreed.net (Douglas E. Warner)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:16:26 -0400
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49ECADEA.8020304@silfreed.net>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11
> 
> The list from bill is a bit light.  I've re-ran my needed rebuild script
> and it is at http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html
> 
> 

qgis has been rebuilt for F11:
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=87161

-Doug

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From opensource at till.name  Mon Apr 20 17:47:50 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:47:50 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
Message-ID: <200904201947.56872.opensource@till.name>

On Monday 20 April 2009 17:30:22 Christoph Wickert wrote:
> Am Montag, den 20.04.2009, 17:21 +0200 schrieb Milos Jakubicek:
> > Jesse, could you regenerate the list please?
>
> It's automatically being regenerated.

I believe that this has stopped after the the automatic rebuild finished. 
Nevertheless it would be nice to have a timestamp of the last run included in 
the output.

Regards
Till


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From dennis at ausil.us  Mon Apr 20 17:54:11 2009
From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:54:11 -0500
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <200904201947.56872.opensource@till.name>
References: <200904201947.56872.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <200904201254.16949.dennis@ausil.us>

On Monday 20 April 2009 12:47:50 pm Till Maas wrote:
> On Monday 20 April 2009 17:30:22 Christoph Wickert wrote:
> > Am Montag, den 20.04.2009, 17:21 +0200 schrieb Milos Jakubicek:
> > > Jesse, could you regenerate the list please?
> >
> > It's automatically being regenerated.
>
> I believe that this has stopped after the the automatic rebuild finished.
> Nevertheless it would be nice to have a timestamp of the last run included
> in the output.
it is still being updated.

Dennis
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From mschwendt at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 17:55:17 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:55:17 +0200
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <49EC37E9.1070206@fetzig.org>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<49EC37E9.1070206@fetzig.org>
Message-ID: <20090420195517.3d00a672@faldor.intranet>

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:52:57 +0200, Felix wrote:

> Am 19.04.2009 23:32, schrieb Bj?rn Persson:
> > I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand.
> 
> Well you could start using rpmdev-bumpspec.

Emacs/XEmacs users can use  M-x rpm-add-change-log-entry  as provided by
rpmdevtools.



From jkeating at j2solutions.net  Mon Apr 20 18:01:01 2009
From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:01:01 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <200904201947.56872.opensource@till.name>
References: <200904201947.56872.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <1240250461.2861.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 19:47 +0200, Till Maas wrote:
> 
> I believe that this has stopped after the the automatic rebuild finished. 

It is still being ran, when I remember to refresh my ssh session for key
forwarding.

> Nevertheless it would be nice to have a timestamp of the last run included in 
> the output.
> 

That's a good rfe, would you mind filing that as a ticket in rel-eng
trac so that I don't forget it?

-- 
Jesse Keating RHCE      (http://jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project          (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key          (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)
identi.ca               (http://identi.ca/jkeating)
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 18:10:46 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:10:46 -0700
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <1240251046.2861.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 13:36 +0200, Matej Cepl wrote:
> srv         good for servers, we should suppport it more IMHO

How are we supposed to "support it more" when we're explicitly supposed
to keep our hands off of it?

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From mschwendt at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 17:52:18 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:52:18 +0200
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <9497e9990904200523i303c1ca8qeef4c004fabd0d62@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<9497e9990904200523i303c1ca8qeef4c004fabd0d62@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090420195218.311a458b@faldor.intranet>

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:23:31 +0100, Mat wrote:

> 2009/4/19 Bj?rn Persson:
> > I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand. How
> > strict are the requirements on the format of changelog entries? Are they
> > meant to be machine-readable? Is the format specified anywhere? The packaging
> > guidelines document contains four examples. Examples are good but they're no
> > replacement for a specification.
> >
> > So far, RPMlint has told me that each entry must start with an asterisk and
> > that the international standard date format is bad. Can I trust that the
> > format is OK if RPMlint doesn't complain?
> >
> > Bj?rn Persson
> >
> 
> Check out the packaging guidelines:
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Changelogs

Which is what the OP commented on in the first chapter quoted above.

Most important, rpmbuild parses the %changelog section of a spec file and
throws several error messages at you if it runs into trouble. For example,
these fatal ones:

error: %changelog entries must start with *
error: %changelog not in descending chronological order
error: bad date in %changelog: ...



From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 18:13:26 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:13:26 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <49EC99E0.4030005@fi.muni.cz>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EC92F3.4090107@fi.muni.cz>
	<1240241422.3337.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EC99E0.4030005@fi.muni.cz>
Message-ID: <1240251206.2861.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 17:50 +0200, Milos Jakubicek wrote:
> Are you sure? And does it search for packages just built for dist-f11 or 
> do they have to be tagged to get off the list?

I think they have to be tagged, otherwise they aren't in dist-f11

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 18:19:06 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:19:06 -0400
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> 
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <e76492710904201119t30590c0dsf19dc33f3cbad264@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11
>
> The list from bill is a bit light. ?I've re-ran my needed rebuild script
> and it is at http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html
>

I don't understand.

oget (1):
    zynjacku

This new package was built 1 day before your email. Do I need to apply
for a final freeze break? I don't care if the package goes directly to
F-11 or to the updates.

Orcan



From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Mon Apr 20 18:21:05 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:21:05 +0300
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <1240251046.2861.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<1240251046.2861.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904202121.05871.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>



On Monday 20 April 2009 21:10:46 Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 13:36 +0200, Matej Cepl wrote:
> > srv         good for servers, we should suppport it more IMHO
> 
> How are we supposed to "support it more" when we're explicitly supposed
> to keep our hands off of it?

...by searching configuration files under /srv/etc for example and letting 
them to override the system ones? I guess looking and reading doesn't qualify
as "hands on" something, does it? :-)

I could imagine less pain when having all configurations in one filesystem,
pulling those disks out and reinstalling the whole system and putting
disks back. 

Apache conf.d is a small step to the right direction but not really a giant 
leap for mankind.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From iarnell at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 18:23:03 2009
From: iarnell at gmail.com (Iain Arnell)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:23:03 +0200
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <20090420195517.3d00a672@faldor.intranet>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<49EC37E9.1070206@fetzig.org>
	<20090420195517.3d00a672@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <81487f820904201123v37be5765hd7011c2607b39c35@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Emacs/XEmacs users can use ?M-x rpm-add-change-log-entry ?as provided by
> rpmdevtools.

vim users can use <LocalLeader>-c (without needing rpmdevtools - and
come nowhere close to "accidentally" hitting ctrl-alt-del)

-- 
Iain.



From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 18:23:59 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:23:59 -0700
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 09:22 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> Because one wants to compile with 'gcc -m32'.  This is very useful
> when you have virtualization.
> 
> Unfortunately the more I look at multilib, the more totally broken it
> seems to be.

Yes, multilib is rather a disaster for this.  That's what mock is for.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From seg at haxxed.com  Mon Apr 20 18:29:03 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:29:03 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 11:23 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 09:22 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> > Because one wants to compile with 'gcc -m32'.  This is very useful
> > when you have virtualization.
> > 
> > Unfortunately the more I look at multilib, the more totally broken it
> > seems to be.
> 
> Yes, multilib is rather a disaster for this.  That's what mock is for.

It works just fine. No way in hell is mock going to be acceptable for a
quick turn-around edit-compile-test cycle on a massive OpenGL app.
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From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Mon Apr 20 18:31:28 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:31:28 +0200
Subject: gnome keyring daemon from cron job
In-Reply-To: <faa16b610904201008k66c22ad8kc3031c2c12b7e7ec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240233370.19276.2.camel@choeger6>
	<1240235373.19436.0.camel@choeger6>
	<faa16b610904201008k66c22ad8kc3031c2c12b7e7ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240252288.4021.1.camel@choeger6>

Am Montag, den 20.04.2009, 13:08 -0400 schrieb Colin Walters:
> 2009/4/20 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>:
> > Ok, it seems that DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADRESS is not set.
> >
> > What has changed between the releases?
> >
> > (and does anyone have _any_ ideas how to fix that?)
> 
> Basically cron has never been integrated with desktop infrastructure.
> I'm not sure exactly why gnome-keyring worked before.
> 
> I think the most practical fix would be a cron patch that talks to
> ConsoleKit (if available) to determine if there's a current login
> session, and if there is, it reuses the infrastructure (X server,
> dbus-daemon, etc).  If there is no login session, it spawns a bus (and
> possibly a dummy vfb X server) for it.


Hmm,

I could fix that by adding DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=autolaunch: to the
cron job. That made gnomekeyring reachable again.

Is there something wrong with .dbus/session/* stuff?

regards

christoph
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 18:37:35 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:37:35 -0700
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <200904202121.05871.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<1240251046.2861.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904202121.05871.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <1240252655.2861.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 21:21 +0300, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> 
> ...by searching configuration files under /srv/etc for example and letting 
> them to override the system ones? I guess looking and reading doesn't qualify
> as "hands on" something, does it? :-)

Search where though, and in what order, and how deep?  And where do you
define where in /srv/ to look for the config file, in
the /etc/rc.d/init.d/<foo> file?  (which is back in etc again...)

/srv/ is hands off, undefined layout to be managed by the local admin,
period.  We can't make any assumptions about what is in there, nor how
it is being used.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 18:38:55 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:38:55 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904201119t30590c0dsf19dc33f3cbad264@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201119t30590c0dsf19dc33f3cbad264@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240252735.2861.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 14:19 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> 
> I don't understand.
> 
> oget (1):
>     zynjacku
> 
> This new package was built 1 day before your email. Do I need to apply
> for a final freeze break? I don't care if the package goes directly to
> F-11 or to the updates.

It should go somewhere, I suppose I'll have to try and modify the script
to look at pending updates, but those aren't guaranteed to go out, so
you could also just mentally filter it.

This is the problem with taking so long to do your builds, the
constraints of the testing start to break down.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 18:40:03 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:40:03 -0700
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 13:29 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> 
> It works just fine. No way in hell is mock going to be acceptable for a
> quick turn-around edit-compile-test cycle on a massive OpenGL app.

Supporting multilib creates untold number of disasters and unfixable
situations.  Its just not worth it when you can maintain a chroot (mock
or not) of the arch you wish to fiddle with.  Trying to continue to do
it in / is just insane.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From opensource at till.name  Mon Apr 20 18:44:01 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:44:01 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240250461.2861.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904201947.56872.opensource@till.name>
	<1240250461.2861.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904202044.16013.opensource@till.name>

On Mo April 20 2009, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 19:47 +0200, Till Maas wrote:

> > Nevertheless it would be nice to have a timestamp of the last run
> > included in the output.
>
> That's a good rfe, would you mind filing that as a ticket in rel-eng
> trac so that I don't forget it?

Of cource not, here is a ticket with a patch, which also does some html 
cleanups and adds information about where to find the script and report 
bugs/RFEs:

https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/1557

Regards
Till
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From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Mon Apr 20 18:45:19 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?utf-8?q?Skytt=C3=A4?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:45:19 +0300
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <81487f820904201123v37be5765hd7011c2607b39c35@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<20090420195517.3d00a672@faldor.intranet>
	<81487f820904201123v37be5765hd7011c2607b39c35@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904202145.23108.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Monday 20 April 2009, Iain Arnell wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Michael Schwendt <mschwendt at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> > Emacs/XEmacs users can use  M-x rpm-add-change-log-entry  as provided by
> > rpmdevtools.
>
> vim users can use <LocalLeader>-c (without needing rpmdevtools

Small correction: Emacs/XEmacs users don't need rpmdevtools for that either - 
it's rpm-spec-mode.el which provides that functionality (shipped in the emacs 
and xemacs-packages-extra packages in Fedora).

What rpmdevtools does for *Emacs users is that it makes opening a new 
$foo.spec automatically use the corresponding rpmdevtools spec template for 
$foo as emitted by rpmdev-newspec, and adjusts a few more or less cosmetic 
variables.  If there's a way to do something similar with vim (which currently 
appears to be using always the same template shipped in vim-common regardless 
of $foo) or other editors, patches are welcome in Bugzilla or 
fedorahosted.org/rpmdevtools

> - and come nowhere close to "accidentally" hitting ctrl-alt-del)

Hmm, "Ctrl-c Ctrl-e"... phew!



From seg at haxxed.com  Mon Apr 20 18:59:36 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:59:36 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240253976.14092.200.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 11:40 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 13:29 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > 
> > It works just fine. No way in hell is mock going to be acceptable for a
> > quick turn-around edit-compile-test cycle on a massive OpenGL app.
> 
> Supporting multilib creates untold number of disasters and unfixable
> situations.  Its just not worth it when you can maintain a chroot (mock
> or not) of the arch you wish to fiddle with.  Trying to continue to do
> it in / is just insane.

It WORKSFORME.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Mon Apr 20 19:02:49 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:02:49 -0500
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<ca3ub6-b1d.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <1240254169.14092.203.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 13:36 +0200, Matej Cepl wrote:
> root        hmm, why don't we have /home/root ?

Because splitting /home makes sense and you want to be able to log in as
root if your /home filesystem or NFS mount or whatever gets screwed.
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From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Mon Apr 20 19:02:59 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:02:59 +0300
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <1240252655.2861.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904202121.05871.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<1240252655.2861.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904202202.59837.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>




On Monday 20 April 2009 21:37:35 Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 21:21 +0300, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > 
> > ...by searching configuration files under /srv/etc for example and letting 
> > them to override the system ones? I guess looking and reading doesn't qualify
> > as "hands on" something, does it? :-)
> 
> Search where though, and in what order, and how deep?  

I guess it doesn't matter where if you can somehow have the configs
there and keep them safe, like apache's case in /srv/etc/httpd/*
would be enough. It would be on the same filesystem. Everyone can 
find those dir names from scripts.


> And where do you
> define where in /srv/ to look for the config file, in
> the /etc/rc.d/init.d/<foo> file?  (which is back in etc again...)

It sounds like there should first be a specification and
then we should implement it. That would be nice, but unfortunately
there isn't. This industry has plenty of examples from de-facto
implementations until they are formally standardized.

> /srv/ is hands off, undefined layout to be managed by the local admin,
> period.  We can't make any assumptions about what is in there, nor how
> it is being used.

If shell looks under /srv in addition to /etc/profile.d it would allow
local admins use it. If they choose not to, they should do nothing. Such
improvement could even be switched off in some /etc/sysconfig file easily.
I don't see how it would intrude their autonomous area if it wont 
force them into anything.

The whole point of /srv is to have your server's role data in single 
location for obvious reasons. I can imagine that people running Fedora 
as server would appreciate such option due more frequent upgrades.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From walters at verbum.org  Mon Apr 20 19:07:00 2009
From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:07:00 -0400
Subject: gnome keyring daemon from cron job
In-Reply-To: <1240252288.4021.1.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240233370.19276.2.camel@choeger6>
	<1240235373.19436.0.camel@choeger6>
	<faa16b610904201008k66c22ad8kc3031c2c12b7e7ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240252288.4021.1.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <faa16b610904201207x29d16bc5q621d0d62b573680a@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/20 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>:
>
> I could fix that by adding DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=autolaunch: to the
> cron job. That made gnomekeyring reachable again.

If you have an existing desktop session though that will cause things
to break most likely though, since you can now get two
gnome-keyring-daemon instances both of which are accessing the single
keyring file.  If you're not logged in though that works.

Aside from patching cron we should really ship a "ck-run-in-desktop"
command with ConsoleKit, it wouldn't be difficult to write.

> Is there something wrong with .dbus/session/* stuff?

The pitfall with putting stuff in $HOME that's per-user-per-machine is
that it hard-breaks in NFS scenarios.  We could put the dbus machine
uuid (or smolt uuid) in the filename, but I think using ConsoleKit is
cleaner.



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 19:11:31 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:11:31 -0400
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240252735.2861.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> 
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201119t30590c0dsf19dc33f3cbad264@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240252735.2861.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <e76492710904201211j207ce100q76331582dca8f55@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 14:19 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>>
>> I don't understand.
>>
>> oget (1):
>> ? ? zynjacku
>>
>> This new package was built 1 day before your email. Do I need to apply
>> for a final freeze break? I don't care if the package goes directly to
>> F-11 or to the updates.
>
> It should go somewhere, I suppose I'll have to try and modify the script
> to look at pending updates, but those aren't guaranteed to go out, so
> you could also just mentally filter it.
>
> This is the problem with taking so long to do your builds, the
> constraints of the testing start to break down.
>

Phew... I built the package 4 hours after cvs was done. Is that considered slow?

Orcan

ref: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492990



From jkeating at j2solutions.net  Mon Apr 20 19:12:29 2009
From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:12:29 -0700
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <200904202202.59837.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904202121.05871.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<1240252655.2861.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904202202.59837.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <1240254749.2861.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 22:02 +0300, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> It sounds like there should first be a specification and
> then we should implement it. That would be nice, but unfortunately
> there isn't. This industry has plenty of examples from de-facto
> implementations until they are formally standardized.

There is a specification, which is that the site admin gets to decide
how that path is used.  That is it.  Period.

> 
> > /srv/ is hands off, undefined layout to be managed by the local admin,
> > period.  We can't make any assumptions about what is in there, nor how
> > it is being used.
> 
> If shell looks under /srv in addition to /etc/profile.d it would allow
> local admins use it. 

Look where though?  We can't pre-create directories, nor can we assume
any layout as that may have adverse effects based on how the admin is
using /srv/.

> If they choose not to, they should do nothing. Such
> improvement could even be switched off in some /etc/sysconfig file easily.
> I don't see how it would intrude their autonomous area if it wont 
> force them into anything.
> 
> The whole point of /srv is to have your server's role data in single 
> location for obvious reasons. I can imagine that people running Fedora 
> as server would appreciate such option due more frequent upgrades.
> 

/srv exists as a place admins can put things without worry of the
operating system interfering.  Once you start interfering, /srv/ looses
it's usefulness, and admins will start making /data or /web or other
such things again.

-- 
Jesse Keating RHCE      (http://jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project          (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key          (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)
identi.ca               (http://identi.ca/jkeating)
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 19:13:13 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:13:13 -0700
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240253976.14092.200.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240253976.14092.200.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240254793.2861.29.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 13:59 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 11:40 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 13:29 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > > 
> > > It works just fine. No way in hell is mock going to be acceptable for a
> > > quick turn-around edit-compile-test cycle on a massive OpenGL app.
> > 
> > Supporting multilib creates untold number of disasters and unfixable
> > situations.  Its just not worth it when you can maintain a chroot (mock
> > or not) of the arch you wish to fiddle with.  Trying to continue to do
> > it in / is just insane.
> 
> It WORKSFORME.

While that may be true, it breaks for a lot of other people.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 19:15:29 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:15:29 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904201211j207ce100q76331582dca8f55@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201119t30590c0dsf19dc33f3cbad264@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240252735.2861.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201211j207ce100q76331582dca8f55@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240254929.2861.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 15:11 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 14:19 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't understand.
> >>
> >> oget (1):
> >>     zynjacku
> >>
> >> This new package was built 1 day before your email. Do I need to apply
> >> for a final freeze break? I don't care if the package goes directly to
> >> F-11 or to the updates.
> >
> > It should go somewhere, I suppose I'll have to try and modify the script
> > to look at pending updates, but those aren't guaranteed to go out, so
> > you could also just mentally filter it.
> >
> > This is the problem with taking so long to do your builds, the
> > constraints of the testing start to break down.
> >
> 
> Phew... I built the package 4 hours after cvs was done. Is that considered slow?
> 
> Orcan
> 
> ref: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492990

I didn't mean you in particular, I meant that we're months from the
effort start and still having to track down undone builds.  This is
starting to conflict with folks like you bringing new packages in during
a freeze period.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From iarnell at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 19:18:43 2009
From: iarnell at gmail.com (Iain Arnell)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:18:43 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240254929.2861.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201119t30590c0dsf19dc33f3cbad264@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240252735.2861.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201211j207ce100q76331582dca8f55@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240254929.2861.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <81487f820904201218v1b3bee2dk77af8ffa18bdd9e1@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
>
> I didn't mean you in particular, I meant that we're months from the
> effort start and still having to track down undone builds. ?This is
> starting to conflict with folks like you bringing new packages in during
> a freeze period.
>
Then change the freeze policy - I'm also dumping new packages into F11
as zero day updates, as per policy:

As of the development freeze for a release, no new features, major
version bumps, or other such development changes are allowed for
packages already in the Fedora collection (new packages can still be
reviewed, added in CVS and built). The purpose of the development
freeze is to help ensure that changes have adequate time to be tested
as well as to provide some focus on bug-fixing for the release.



-- 
Iain.



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Mon Apr 20 19:20:21 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:20:21 +0200
Subject: gnome keyring daemon from cron job
In-Reply-To: <faa16b610904201207x29d16bc5q621d0d62b573680a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240233370.19276.2.camel@choeger6>
	<1240235373.19436.0.camel@choeger6>
	<faa16b610904201008k66c22ad8kc3031c2c12b7e7ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240252288.4021.1.camel@choeger6>
	<faa16b610904201207x29d16bc5q621d0d62b573680a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240255221.4021.5.camel@choeger6>

Am Montag, den 20.04.2009, 15:07 -0400 schrieb Colin Walters:
> 2009/4/20 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>:
> >
> > I could fix that by adding DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=autolaunch: to the
> > cron job. That made gnomekeyring reachable again.
> 
> If you have an existing desktop session though that will cause things
> to break most likely though, since you can now get two
> gnome-keyring-daemon instances both of which are accessing the single
> keyring file.  If you're not logged in though that works.

Uh? I thought that would launch a new dbus, if none is running. After ~
20 cron jobs running with that setting I have only one dbus-daemon and
on gnomekeyring-daemon running.

> 
> Aside from patching cron we should really ship a "ck-run-in-desktop"
> command with ConsoleKit, it wouldn't be difficult to write.

Yepp, definetely.
But that does not help a lot since the program simply fails if there is
no gnome running ;)
My current problem is, that the cronjob used to know
DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS in earlier releases.

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From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Mon Apr 20 19:22:22 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:22:22 +0300
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <1240254749.2861.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904202202.59837.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<1240254749.2861.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904202222.22404.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>



On Monday 20 April 2009 22:12:29 Jesse Keating wrote:
> /srv exists as a place admins can put things without worry of the
> operating system interfering.  Once you start interfering, /srv/ looses
> it's usefulness, and admins will start making /data or /web or other
> such things again.

Having such feature off by default would add one more step (enabling it)
and putting disks back into reinstalled system. Nobody would have to
worry anything.

Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 19:29:52 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:29:52 -0400
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240254929.2861.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> 
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201119t30590c0dsf19dc33f3cbad264@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240252735.2861.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201211j207ce100q76331582dca8f55@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240254929.2861.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <e76492710904201229m6cbe9ac6xb54fb1edb6d094f7@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 15:11 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> > On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 14:19 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don't understand.
>> >>
>> >> oget (1):
>> >> ? ? zynjacku
>> >>
>> >> This new package was built 1 day before your email. Do I need to apply
>> >> for a final freeze break? I don't care if the package goes directly to
>> >> F-11 or to the updates.
>> >
>> > It should go somewhere, I suppose I'll have to try and modify the script
>> > to look at pending updates, but those aren't guaranteed to go out, so
>> > you could also just mentally filter it.
>> >
>> > This is the problem with taking so long to do your builds, the
>> > constraints of the testing start to break down.
>> >
>>
>> Phew... I built the package 4 hours after cvs was done. Is that considered slow?
>>
>> Orcan
>>
>> ref: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492990
>
> I didn't mean you in particular, I meant that we're months from the
> effort start and still having to track down undone builds. ?This is
> starting to conflict with folks like you bringing new packages in during
> a freeze period.
>
> --
> Jesse Keating

My intention, when I asked for cvs, was to have the package submitted
to F-11-updates, not to F-11 itself. The package got approved on the
17th. Should I have waited until F-11 is released to ask for cvs? I
want to learn this to do things the "proper" way next time.

Orcan



From walters at verbum.org  Mon Apr 20 19:43:05 2009
From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:43:05 -0400
Subject: gnome keyring daemon from cron job
In-Reply-To: <1240255221.4021.5.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240233370.19276.2.camel@choeger6>
	<1240235373.19436.0.camel@choeger6>
	<faa16b610904201008k66c22ad8kc3031c2c12b7e7ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240252288.4021.1.camel@choeger6>
	<faa16b610904201207x29d16bc5q621d0d62b573680a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240255221.4021.5.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <faa16b610904201243g5e10ef2eg7e090548e606726e@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/20 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>:
>
> Uh? I thought that would launch a new dbus, if none is running. After ~
> 20 cron jobs running with that setting I have only one dbus-daemon and
> on gnomekeyring-daemon running.

The autolaunched bus will terminate after the cron job ends.  Look at
the process list while your job is running (insert a sleep) and you'll
likely see two bus instances and two keyring daemons.

I'm just educated-guessing, I haven't checked though.

>> Aside from patching cron we should really ship a "ck-run-in-desktop"
>> command with ConsoleKit, it wouldn't be difficult to write.
>
> Yepp, definetely.
> But that does not help a lot since the program simply fails if there is
> no gnome running ;)

My thought was that this program would launch a bus if none was
running.  And ideally, that same bus would be picked up by the desktop
if you later logged in.

> My current problem is, that the cronjob used to know
> DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS in earlier releases.

Yes, I'm not sure what changed honestly.  It might actually be that
gnome-keyring gained a dbus dependency that it didn't have before.



From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 19:46:57 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:46:57 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <81487f820904201218v1b3bee2dk77af8ffa18bdd9e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201119t30590c0dsf19dc33f3cbad264@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240252735.2861.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201211j207ce100q76331582dca8f55@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240254929.2861.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<81487f820904201218v1b3bee2dk77af8ffa18bdd9e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240256817.2861.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 21:18 +0200, Iain Arnell wrote:
> Then change the freeze policy - I'm also dumping new packages into F11
> as zero day updates, as per policy:

I think you misunderstood.  I have no issue at all with Orcan bringing
new packages in.  That's fine.

My issue is that we have waited so long in trying to get all the old
stuff rebuilt that the checking it is doing is starting to fall apart at
the seams because we've entered a freeze period.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 19:47:50 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:47:50 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904201229m6cbe9ac6xb54fb1edb6d094f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201119t30590c0dsf19dc33f3cbad264@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240252735.2861.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201211j207ce100q76331582dca8f55@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240254929.2861.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201229m6cbe9ac6xb54fb1edb6d094f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240256870.2861.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 15:29 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> 
> My intention, when I asked for cvs, was to have the package submitted
> to F-11-updates, not to F-11 itself. The package got approved on the
> 17th. Should I have waited until F-11 is released to ask for cvs? I
> want to learn this to do things the "proper" way next time.

You did it the proper way.  The maintainers whom haven't rebuilt their
packages yet and force the fact that we continue to have to monitor
which ones haven't been built, and catch packages like yours by accident
is who haven't done it the proper way.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 20:04:11 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:04:11 -0700
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <1240188659.14092.185.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<20090417125428.GC1322964@hiwaay.net> <gsb2ht$qsb$4@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090417232445.GB31693@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240029687.14173.39.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240188659.14092.185.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240257851.14173.646.camel@adam.local.net>

On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 19:50 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 21:41 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 01:24 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > 
> > > I don't think the switch would be that complicated. The packagers
> > > could change --prefix=/usr to --prefix=/ in the spec files whenever
> > > they want. And when the last package is updated accordingly and a bit
> > > of time passed and /usr is empty it could be replaced by a symlink.
> > 
> > oh, yes, because EVERYTHING builds with autotools. *sigh*
> 
> Any build system that doesn't provide the same configurability as
> autotools is braindead and broken. And is likely already having to be
> patched to hell and back to build into an RPM anyway.

The point is it's not as simple as Lennart claims. There'd be dozens of
subtle changes in dozens of packages.

(Of course, nothing should be hardcoding /usr anyway. Everything should
be using macros which could be easily changed, which is the point of
macros. But I'm sure stuff is.)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 20:10:38 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:10:38 -0700
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk> <49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk> <49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
	<6e24a8e80904171521o57d5373dxc869d46d59c276c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240258238.14173.647.camel@adam.local.net>

On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 10:18 -0700, Christopher Stone wrote:

> So, how much is Microsoft paying you guys?  Anyone who has been
> posting to this thread who has been receiving kickback money, please
> let us know how much you are getting.

I didn't get anything :(.

On an entirely unrelated note, I hereby announce that tomorrow I'm
retiring and going to live on my new private island in the Caribbean.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From a.badger at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 20:07:18 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:07:18 -0700
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <200904202222.22404.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>	<200904202202.59837.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>	<1240254749.2861.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904202222.22404.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <49ECD5F6.1010106@gmail.com>

Juha Tuomala wrote:
> 
> On Monday 20 April 2009 22:12:29 Jesse Keating wrote:
>> /srv exists as a place admins can put things without worry of the
>> operating system interfering.  Once you start interfering, /srv/ looses
>> it's usefulness, and admins will start making /data or /web or other
>> such things again.
> 
> Having such feature off by default would add one more step (enabling it)
> and putting disks back into reinstalled system. Nobody would have to
> worry anything.
> 
What Jesse is saying is that the FHS standard for /srv is that
distributions are not to touch it (other than creating the directory).
Site admins can then do whatever they want there.  This may involve
creating a separate hierarchy like:

  /srv/etc/Daemon.conf
  /srv/sbin/Daemon
  /srv/share/Daemon/data.file

But it's equally valid for the site admin to instal a package named
"etc" in there like this:

  /srv/etc/etc-daemon
  /srv/etc/etc-daemon.conf
  /srv/etc/etc-daemon-data.file

Or the information in there could be totally different.  This
information is entirely up to the site admin.  If we try to read any
information in there, we take away this freedom of the site admin to
modify things to their hearts content within that hierarchy.

-Toshio

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From iarnell at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 20:12:40 2009
From: iarnell at gmail.com (Iain Arnell)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:12:40 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <1240256817.2861.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201119t30590c0dsf19dc33f3cbad264@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240252735.2861.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201211j207ce100q76331582dca8f55@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240254929.2861.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<81487f820904201218v1b3bee2dk77af8ffa18bdd9e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240256817.2861.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <81487f820904201312v465e0475q3cb8f1c2abbc5851@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 21:18 +0200, Iain Arnell wrote:
>> Then change the freeze policy - I'm also dumping new packages into F11
>> as zero day updates, as per policy:
>
> I think you misunderstood. ?I have no issue at all with Orcan bringing
> new packages in. ?That's fine.
>
> My issue is that we have waited so long in trying to get all the old
> stuff rebuilt that the checking it is doing is starting to fall apart at
> the seams because we've entered a freeze period.

But if our new packages are causing problems with the freeze, doesn't
it make sense to change the freeze policy.  Maybe a late branch for
new packages added after freeze to give you some more time to get
things organized where it matters.


-- 
Iain.



From pjones at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 20:17:00 2009
From: pjones at redhat.com (Peter Jones)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:17:00 -0400
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49ECD83C.3020208@redhat.com>

On 04/16/2009 07:58 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Heya,
> 
> there's one topic that keeps popping up in various discussions: can't
> we get rid of /usr? The seperation of / and /usr doesn't make much
> sense anymore. We could make /usr a symlink to / for an interims phase
> and everything would be good for conservative folks who think the FHS
> is the holy bible.

This seems like a solution looking for a problem.  What problem is it that
you're trying to solve?

-- 
        Peter

Power corrupts.  Absolute power is kind of neat.
		-- John Lehman, Secretary of the Navy, 1981-1987



From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 20:21:21 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:21:21 -0700
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
Message-ID: <1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>

On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 23:32 +0200, Bj?rn Persson wrote:
> I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand.

Why is this, BTW? Is there a reason we don't just generate it from CVS
commit messages, beyond "no-one's had time / inclination to implement
it"?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Mon Apr 20 20:25:39 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:25:39 +0300
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49ECD5F6.1010106@gmail.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904202222.22404.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>
	<49ECD5F6.1010106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904202325.39272.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>



On Monday 20 April 2009 23:07:18 Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> > Having such feature off by default... Nobody would have to
> > worry anything.

> If we try to read any
> information in there, we take away this freedom of the site admin to
> modify things to their hearts content within that hierarchy.

I missed the part where the freedom got lost.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From dcantrell at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 20:26:27 2009
From: dcantrell at redhat.com (David Cantrell)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:26:27 -1000
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49ECDA73.2090901@redhat.com>

On 04/20/2009 10:21 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 23:32 +0200, Bj?rn Persson wrote:
>> I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand.
>
> Why is this, BTW? Is there a reason we don't just generate it from CVS
> commit messages, beyond "no-one's had time / inclination to implement
> it"?

Because there's no forced standard for CVS commit messages.  Plus, each 
CVS commit in pkgcvs does not necessarily equal a new release or version 
increment in the package.  At least that's not how I use pkgcvs.

I view the RPM changelog as mostly fluff for end-user consumption.  We 
[the packagers] can summarize the main points of that release, note bug 
numbers addressed, and other major points for that iteration of the package.

-- 
David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com>
Red Hat / Honolulu, HI



From limb at jcomserv.net  Mon Apr 20 20:29:04 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:29:04 -0500
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <49ECDA73.2090901@redhat.com>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49ECDA73.2090901@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49ECDB10.4070500@jcomserv.net>

David Cantrell wrote:
> On 04/20/2009 10:21 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>> On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 23:32 +0200, Bj?rn Persson wrote:
>>> I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand.
>>
>> Why is this, BTW? Is there a reason we don't just generate it from CVS
>> commit messages, beyond "no-one's had time / inclination to implement
>> it"?
>
> Because there's no forced standard for CVS commit messages.  Plus, 
> each CVS commit in pkgcvs does not necessarily equal a new release or 
> version increment in the package.  At least that's not how I use pkgcvs.
>
> I view the RPM changelog as mostly fluff for end-user consumption.  We 
> [the packagers] can summarize the main points of that release, note 
> bug numbers addressed, and other major points for that iteration of 
> the package.
>
I use rpm's changelog the way David does.  I consider the one in the RPM 
to be the formal, end-user-facing record.  The CVS changelog is where 
things like "EVR bump for chainbuild", "Fixed typo in summary" or "Shit, 
forgot a BuildRequires" go.

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 20:40:01 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:40:01 -0500
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0904190022v4ec3f488m21b1c4ab438246e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904190022v4ec3f488m21b1c4ab438246e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904201340h1c79b418s866ebde350bffebf@mail.gmail.com>

I was unfortunately not able to get to the packages that are mine the
other day, but I was able to start some work on them today. Here is my
question at risk of sounding like I have no clue what I'm doing: "What
process should I follow to verify that I have fixed the issue?". I
read the wiki link that was posted
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Debuginfo) and did verify
that one of the packages in question (shed) had a -s in the install
section of the makefile, so I created a patch for the Makefile.in and
wanted to find a way to test the resulting package before submitting
it as a patch or a fix.

Thank you,
-Adam



-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From jussi.lehtola at iki.fi  Mon Apr 20 20:50:35 2009
From: jussi.lehtola at iki.fi (Jussi Lehtola)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:50:35 +0300
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <49ECDB10.4070500@jcomserv.net>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49ECDA73.2090901@redhat.com> <49ECDB10.4070500@jcomserv.net>
Message-ID: <1240260635.3170.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 15:29 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
> David Cantrell wrote:
> > I view the RPM changelog as mostly fluff for end-user consumption.  We 
> > [the packagers] can summarize the main points of that release, note 
> > bug numbers addressed, and other major points for that iteration of 
> > the package.
> >
> I use rpm's changelog the way David does.  I consider the one in the RPM 
> to be the formal, end-user-facing record.  The CVS changelog is where 
> things like "EVR bump for chainbuild", "Fixed typo in summary" or "Shit, 
> forgot a BuildRequires" go.

I don't know how official the guideline at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/Join
is, but it states that the CVS changelog format is the same as for the
spec file changelog.

The CVS changelog is indeed a bit redundant since everything important
is already in the spec changelog, thus it might be used in a freer
fashion.
-- 
Jussi Lehtola
Fedora Project Contributor
jussilehtola at fedoraproject.org



From jlaska at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 21:03:48 2009
From: jlaska at redhat.com (James Laska)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:03:48 -0400
Subject: 2009-04-21 - Fedora Test Day - Minimal platform
Message-ID: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>

Greetings testers,

Calling all package gurus and dependency junkies!  The Fedora 11
MinimalPlatform feature [1] aims to provide a tiny installation package
set by identifying unwanted deps from @Core and related groups.  As
described in the feature page, the benefits to Fedora include:

      * Security - lower the attack surface by installing only necessary
        packages
      * Performance - faster installation and less running services
      * Storage - installation is less than 500MB

There will also be several new tools available to help navigate
dependencies, including rpmreaper and rpm2comps. 

Come join #fedora-qa this Tuesday, April 21 2009 to help put an end to
deps creep.  Test cases and a Fedora live image will be available to aid
testing. Stay tuned for more details are available at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-04-21_Minimal_Platform.

Thanks,
James

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MinimalPlatform
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 21:18:02 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:18:02 -0700
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <49ECDA73.2090901@redhat.com>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49ECDA73.2090901@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240262282.14173.657.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 10:26 -1000, David Cantrell wrote:
> On 04/20/2009 10:21 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 23:32 +0200, Bj?rn Persson wrote:
> >> I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand.
> >
> > Why is this, BTW? Is there a reason we don't just generate it from CVS
> > commit messages, beyond "no-one's had time / inclination to implement
> > it"?
> 
> Because there's no forced standard for CVS commit messages.  Plus, each 
> CVS commit in pkgcvs does not necessarily equal a new release or version 
> increment in the package.  At least that's not how I use pkgcvs.

It doesn't have to - you can generate the changelog as part of the
package submission process, containing all the commit messages since the
last package build.

> I view the RPM changelog as mostly fluff for end-user consumption.  We 
> [the packagers] can summarize the main points of that release, note bug 
> numbers addressed, and other major points for that iteration of the package.

You can have a keyword that you put in CVS commit messages that
suppresses them from being added to the RPM changelog, if they wouldn't
be useful in that context (like "rebuilt with no changes for some
procedural reason").

(The win of doing things this way, btw, is that it saves maintainers
time and effort, reduces errors introduced by the manual creation of
what should be boilerplate content, and makes it less likely that
important information will be left out of RPM changelogs, since you have
to have a commit message and most developers habitually write useful
ones).
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Mon Apr 20 21:34:19 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:34:19 +0200
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
References: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0904071623210.12219@newtla.xelerance.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se>
	<6e24a8e80904171521o57d5373dxc869d46d59c276c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904181018u6bebaeabi60ed85ee9d9cd03f@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904181307p64277d2bm8e4befd81d78c113@mail.gmail.com>
	<e692861c0904181543w69b1be19p4273112fd7293a8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gsipor$bk8$1@ger.gmane.org>

Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> Shall we add a wipe-dotfiles button next because sometimes they become
> corrupted and the desktop environment no longer lets you log in?

Given how many people suggest to delete the entire .kde directory the first
time somebody experiences even the slightest problem with KDE, you might
actually find interested people...

(Hint: DO NOT delete your entire .kde directory if you have KDE issues. If
you think it's a configuration issue, rename (don't delete!) the specific
config files most likely to cause issues. In case of Plasma, that's
plasmarc and plasma-appletsrc. In case of an application, that's the rc
with the application's name in it. The same also goes for other (non-KDE)
applications, always keep a backup (i.e. rename, don't delete) and only
rename the files actually related to your problem.)

        Kevin Kofler



From a.badger at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 21:36:10 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:36:10 -0700
Subject: mono-2.4 and ppc64 status
Message-ID: <49ECEACA.1060304@gmail.com>

Mono-2.4 has been built for ppc64 in F11 and devel.  So people should be
able to start rebuilding packages to include ppc64 as well as the other
arches.  There's a few wrinkles to watch out for:

1) Packages with dependencies will have to be built in dependency order.
 For instance, a lot of packages depend on the gtk-sharp2 bindings and
those haven't been built yet.

2) Because of the imminent release of F11 we're in a freeze state.  This
 means getting dependencies into the Fedora11 buildroot will require
people to request tagging explicitly.  This also means that if you
rebuild your package for F11 with ppc64 support and later you have to
get this package tagged into the release, all of the packages it depends
on will need to be tagged in as well (otherwise your ppc64 build will
have broken deps).

With these in mind, I'd recommend people start rebuilding their mono
packages on ppc64 in the devel branch.  Keep track of the dependency
chain you encounter.  Then perform your builds in the Fedora 11 branch
as updates after the release.  I'm not a mono-sig member, though, so if
you guys decide something else makes sense, just be sure to come up with
a plan so we don't release with a bunch of broken dependencies.

-Toshio

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From dcantrell at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 22:08:05 2009
From: dcantrell at redhat.com (David Cantrell)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:08:05 -1000
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <1240262282.14173.657.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>	<49ECDA73.2090901@redhat.com>
	<1240262282.14173.657.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49ECF245.6060807@redhat.com>

On 04/20/2009 11:18 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 10:26 -1000, David Cantrell wrote:
>> On 04/20/2009 10:21 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>>> On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 23:32 +0200, Bj?rn Persson wrote:
>>>> I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand.
>>> Why is this, BTW? Is there a reason we don't just generate it from CVS
>>> commit messages, beyond "no-one's had time / inclination to implement
>>> it"?
>> Because there's no forced standard for CVS commit messages.  Plus, each
>> CVS commit in pkgcvs does not necessarily equal a new release or version
>> increment in the package.  At least that's not how I use pkgcvs.
>
> It doesn't have to - you can generate the changelog as part of the
> package submission process, containing all the commit messages since the
> last package build.

But that's the thing I don't really want in the RPM changelog.  All of 
the commit messages since the last package build are mostly noise to the 
average user.

>> I view the RPM changelog as mostly fluff for end-user consumption.  We
>> [the packagers] can summarize the main points of that release, note bug
>> numbers addressed, and other major points for that iteration of the package.
>
> You can have a keyword that you put in CVS commit messages that
> suppresses them from being added to the RPM changelog, if they wouldn't
> be useful in that context (like "rebuilt with no changes for some
> procedural reason").
>
> (The win of doing things this way, btw, is that it saves maintainers
> time and effort, reduces errors introduced by the manual creation of
> what should be boilerplate content, and makes it less likely that
> important information will be left out of RPM changelogs, since you have
> to have a commit message and most developers habitually write useful
> ones).

You don't have to sell me on the idea, I do like it.  But it should have 
been implemented when pkgcvs was created.  As it stands, there are far 
too many garbage commit messages in pkgcvs now and far too much useful 
information in the rpm changelogs.

I think this problem would be better solved in a larger 'moving pkgcvs 
to some other vcs' discussion.

-- 
David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com>
Red Hat / Honolulu, HI



From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 22:12:19 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:12:19 -0700
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <81487f820904201312v465e0475q3cb8f1c2abbc5851@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201119t30590c0dsf19dc33f3cbad264@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240252735.2861.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904201211j207ce100q76331582dca8f55@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240254929.2861.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<81487f820904201218v1b3bee2dk77af8ffa18bdd9e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240256817.2861.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<81487f820904201312v465e0475q3cb8f1c2abbc5851@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240265539.3101.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 22:12 +0200, Iain Arnell wrote:
> But if our new packages are causing problems with the freeze, doesn't
> it make sense to change the freeze policy.  Maybe a late branch for
> new packages added after freeze to give you some more time to get
> things organized where it matters.

Your packages aren't causing any real problem.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 22:15:10 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:15:10 -0700
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240265710.3101.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 13:21 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> Why is this, BTW? Is there a reason we don't just generate it from CVS
> commit messages, beyond "no-one's had time / inclination to implement
> it"?

Because we do it the other way around.  'make clog && cvs commit -F
clog'  Use the rpm changelog for cvs.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 22:28:54 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:28:54 -0700
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
In-Reply-To: <49ECD83C.3020208@redhat.com>
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49ECD83C.3020208@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240266534.3101.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 16:17 -0400, Peter Jones wrote:
> What problem is it that
> you're trying to solve?

People complaining about c-a-bs and /sbin in path.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From markg85 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 22:39:47 2009
From: markg85 at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:39:47 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
Message-ID: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I was just reading the latest distrowatch weekly and there was an
interesting article posted there about a centralized bug tracking
system for all of foss including all of the foss operating systems
(fedora, ubuntu, mandriva.. you get the idea).
I personally find this idea very interesting and am very tempted to
put in a lot of time to get all parties together and talking about a
idea like this (top 10 major foss distributions for now i think) to
see if it would have any support in the highest ranking foss
distributions. without those this idea just might not get of the
ground so easily.

I am aware of the gigantic amount of work that will need to go into
this project but for now that's not the case, yet, for now i'm only
asking fedora and redhat (mainly the developers and leaders but i'm
interested in everyone's opinion) to read the text below (copy/paste
from DistroWatch) and then please explain if you see anything (or
nothing) in this idea? will you support it or not? do you like it? or
is it just something that needs to be forgotten as soon as possible?

Also if your an redhat employee or a fedora comuinity member helping
develop fedora please mention that in your reply. It's not always
obvious from the email address you send the reply from.

Again, don't bother (much) about the resources, time and people that
this project is going to take. That stage is way to early right now.
For now it's only asking fedora/redhat how they would act on a idea
like this.
Here is the text from DistroWatch:


FOSS needs a central bug tracker (by Jesse Smith)

It happened again today. I was using one of my favorite applications
when a familiar bug popped up its head and brought my work to a
screeching halt. Determined to rid all of humankind of this pest, I
went to the Help menu and selected "Report A Bug". Seconds later, I
was on the project's bug tracking web page. Seconds after that, I
determined that the only way for me to report this bug (to the
upstream project) was to create yet another bug tracking account.

Usually I consider myself among the lucky; I generally use Linux and
generally use one distro. Reporting bugs is relatively easy in that I
just need the one bug-tracking account with one vendor. However, there
are days, dark days, when I'm required to use other operating systems
with no central bug-tracking system. This becomes a problem after a
while. Sure, it takes very little time to set up one bug-tracking
account with one open source project. But when a person uses dozens of
open source applications across multiple operating systems, the amount
of time and the number of username/password combinations grow at an
alarming rate. As I mentioned, I usually live a sheltered, one-distro
life, but what agony distro hoppers must go through, setting up a
bug-tracking account for each and every Linux distribution they test
drive! And for those people on other operating systems, imagine
opening bug tracking accounts for GIMP, OpenOffice.org, Firefox,
FileZilla, etc, etc, in an effort to get one's voice heard!

Bug-tracking software is a wonderful tool and I applaud any software
project that uses one, but therein lies the problem: so many software
projects have this software and they all operate separately. Fedora
has one tracker, Debian another, Ubuntu another; and there are
thousands of upstream projects, many with their own trackers.

Now, let us think for a moment about these thousands of bug tracking
systems and consider the amount of duplicated effort. Not just in the
repeated bug reports when someone reports a problem to Slackware and
another person reports it to Fedora and another to Ubuntu, but also in
the effort of setting up these thousands of databases. We're talking a
lot of man/woman/admin hours, here!

I think it would be a good idea to see a grouping of this talent and
data into one place. Consider this: a project such as Debian is
already a hub for reporting bugs and making feature requests for over
20,000 open source projects. In fact, as an open source developer, I
often check the Debian bug tracker to see if anything has been
reported against my projects. Wouldn't it be reasonable if we took
this a step further and brought all of the various distributions' bug
trackers under one system? Imagine if you found a problem in any open
source project on any operating system and could report it in one
place. Just one bug tracking account for each user and developer! When
application XYZ crashes, I could go to, for example,
opensourceoops.org and report the issue, regardless of whether I'm
running a flavor of Linux, OS X or BSD. While the initial setup would
be a large effort, the reduction in duplicated work over the long term
would be fantastic. Also, it would lower the barrier to getting those
pesky bugs reported by users who don't wish to register yet another
username.

An all-in-one solution would also benefit the developers of open
source software. As I mentioned previously, I maintain a few small,
open source applications, which are packaged for various Linux
distributions and BSDs. Though I certainly don't fault the busy
package maintainers, problems and patches are very rarely forwarded
from the distributions to our upstream developers. To try to fix
everything in the upstream source, we (myself and other developers)
have had to go to each distro we know of which maintains a package of
our software and search their issue tracker for our package name. This
is tedious work. Imagine how much easier it would be to find and
integrate patches if a developer had to simply search one large issue
tracker.

I would very much like to see an open source supporter, such as Red
Hat, Canonical or Mozilla, for example, implement a large, inclusive
issue tracker. While a large investment up front, the benefits to open
source users, developers and package maintainers would be a great boon
to the community. There is some precedent for this. As mentioned
before, distributions, such as Debian, track issues for thousands of
packages. On a similar vein, web sites such as SourceForge and Google
Code already provide open source projects with a central location to
save, present and contribute. A central bug tracker could work much
the same way, providing open source developers and users with one
location to report and work on problems.

The greatest hurdle I see to adopting a central system is that people
tend to stick with what they have. For a mega issue tracker to really
be effective, most of the smaller, single-project and
distribution-specific trackers would probably have to be phased out.
People would have to be encouraged to adopt the single location
method. As an alternative, perhaps the central tracker could be set up
in such a way that it would pull issues from other sources.
Distributions and upstream projects might see the benefit of having
their trouble tickets uploaded to a central location where everyone
could see them. This would also centralize issue tracking, without the
problems of forcing people to use The One method. Change is often
difficult, especially when we're looking at so many people spread out
over the world. However, I think something needs to be done; we have
hundreds of distributions and thousands of open source projects.
Encouraging users to maintain separate accounts for each one is
cumbersome and inefficient for everyone.



From jkeating at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 23:17:21 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:17:21 -0700
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
Message-ID: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>

As I mentioned in an earlier thread I was interested in reducing the
number of gpg keys down to one per release.  Currently we have two, one
we sign development builds with during beta/preview and updates-testing,
and then one we sign the released packages with and the stable updates
with.  Multiple keys per release creates a lot of churn, reduces the
number of hardlinks we can maintain, and causes a lot of delay in
getting package sets prepped for the different releases.  As such I'm
proposing that we reduce the keys down to one per release, used for all
the scenarios listed, starting with Fedora 11.  There is already a
Fedora 11 key that was used to sign beta and will be used to sign
preview release, I would just revoke / delete the current ID which
mentions testing and replace it with an ID of just "Fedora 11".
fedora-release will be modified to handle this in the repo files as
well.

If there are no strong reasonable objections this will happen early this
week in time for the Preview release.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 23:18:04 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:18:04 -0700
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <1240265710.3101.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240265710.3101.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240269484.14173.664.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 15:15 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 13:21 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > Why is this, BTW? Is there a reason we don't just generate it from CVS
> > commit messages, beyond "no-one's had time / inclination to implement
> > it"?
> 
> Because we do it the other way around.  'make clog && cvs commit -F
> clog'  Use the rpm changelog for cvs.

so you manually write the one with extra bumph that could easily be
automatically generated, and then use that to produce the one which
*doesn't* have extra bumph that could easily be automatically
generated? :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr 20 23:28:35 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:28:35 -0700
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240270115.14173.667.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 00:39 +0200, Mark wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I was just reading the latest distrowatch weekly and there was an
> interesting article posted there about a centralized bug tracking
> system for all of foss including all of the foss operating systems
> (fedora, ubuntu, mandriva.. you get the idea).
> I personally find this idea very interesting and am very tempted to
> put in a lot of time to get all parties together and talking about a
> idea like this (top 10 major foss distributions for now i think) to
> see if it would have any support in the highest ranking foss
> distributions. without those this idea just might not get of the
> ground so easily.

You're not likely to get Ubuntu to stop using Launchpad, or anyone else
to start using it until it's open source, so the idea's something of a
non-starter.

In theoretical terms it's not a bad idea, I just don't see it likely to
happen as a planned effort, though it might happen if something like
Launchpad but properly open source starting gaining currency among a
sufficiently large number of projects.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 23:42:02 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:42:02 -0500
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
In-Reply-To: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904201642t55ecc077q190429eb557414f1@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:

> As I mentioned in an earlier thread I was interested in reducing the
> number of gpg keys down to one per release.  Currently we have two, one
> we sign development builds with during beta/preview and updates-testing,
> and then one we sign the released packages with and the stable updates
> with.  Multiple keys per release creates a lot of churn, reduces the
> number of hardlinks we can maintain, and causes a lot of delay in
> getting package sets prepped for the different releases.  As such I'm
> proposing that we reduce the keys down to one per release, used for all
> the scenarios listed, starting with Fedora 11.  There is already a
> Fedora 11 key that was used to sign beta and will be used to sign
> preview release, I would just revoke / delete the current ID which
> mentions testing and replace it with an ID of just "Fedora 11".
> fedora-release will be modified to handle this in the repo files as
> well.
>
> If there are no strong reasonable objections this will happen early this
> week in time for the Preview release.
>
> --
> Jesse Keating
> Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
> identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

This is a very reasonable request. I definitely support this. +1
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From jwboyer at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 00:01:00 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:01:00 -0400
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
In-Reply-To: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <625fc13d0904201701g148ed5d6tdddda2de516b37d9@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 7:17 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> As I mentioned in an earlier thread I was interested in reducing the
> number of gpg keys down to one per release. ?Currently we have two, one
> we sign development builds with during beta/preview and updates-testing,
> and then one we sign the released packages with and the stable updates
> with. ?Multiple keys per release creates a lot of churn, reduces the
> number of hardlinks we can maintain, and causes a lot of delay in
> getting package sets prepped for the different releases. ?As such I'm
> proposing that we reduce the keys down to one per release, used for all
> the scenarios listed, starting with Fedora 11. ?There is already a
> Fedora 11 key that was used to sign beta and will be used to sign
> preview release, I would just revoke / delete the current ID which
> mentions testing and replace it with an ID of just "Fedora 11".
> fedora-release will be modified to handle this in the repo files as
> well.
>
> If there are no strong reasonable objections this will happen early this
> week in time for the Preview release.

I'm good with this overall.  In terms of updates signing, this should
make things go more quickly as well assuming most people go the
updates-testing -> updates route as packages should not need to be
re-signed.

josh



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 00:06:37 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:06:37 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <gsc6nm$sa8$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090415141034.GA26034@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gs51rq$lr9$1@ger.gmane.org> <gs53ba$r3c$1@ger.gmane.org> 
	<gsbc5a$eo3$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904171956w62228b40k23b5e79a866f4166@mail.gmail.com> 
	<e76492710904172304j31348936gf77bc570642aa766@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gsc6nm$sa8$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e76492710904201706w53ede6a5qddae2e7f861a410f@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:32 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> Anyhow, I'd be glad if someone with commit access could update the
>> batch with the following:
>>
>> qsynth-0.3.3-6.fc9
>> qsynth-0.3.3-6.fc10
>>
>> qjackctl-0.3.4-1.fc9
>> qjackctl-0.3.4-1.fc10
>
> I'll do that, thanks.
>
> ? ? ? ?Kevin Kofler

Did anyone test these builds, especially the qsynth? It works for me
but I want to make sure if my patches work for everyone. Also, should
I ask for a freeze break for qsynth?

Orcan



From dennis at ausil.us  Tue Apr 21 00:06:44 2009
From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:06:44 -0500
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
In-Reply-To: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904201906.45370.dennis@ausil.us>

On Monday 20 April 2009 06:17:21 pm Jesse Keating wrote:
> As I mentioned in an earlier thread I was interested in reducing the
> number of gpg keys down to one per release.  Currently we have two, one
> we sign development builds with during beta/preview and updates-testing,
> and then one we sign the released packages with and the stable updates
> with.  Multiple keys per release creates a lot of churn, reduces the
> number of hardlinks we can maintain, and causes a lot of delay in
> getting package sets prepped for the different releases.  As such I'm
> proposing that we reduce the keys down to one per release, used for all
> the scenarios listed, starting with Fedora 11.  There is already a
> Fedora 11 key that was used to sign beta and will be used to sign
> preview release, I would just revoke / delete the current ID which
> mentions testing and replace it with an ID of just "Fedora 11".
> fedora-release will be modified to handle this in the repo files as
> well.
>
> If there are no strong reasonable objections this will happen early this
> week in time for the Preview release.
sounds sane to me.

Dennis



From bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se  Tue Apr 21 00:11:51 2009
From: bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se (=?iso-8859-15?q?Bj=F6rn_Persson?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:11:51 +0200
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <49EC37E9.1070206@fetzig.org>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<49EC37E9.1070206@fetzig.org>
Message-ID: <200904210211.51678.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>

Felix Kaechele wrote:
> Am 19.04.2009 23:32, schrieb Bj?rn Persson:
> > I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand.
>
> Well you could start using rpmdev-bumpspec.

Thanks for the tip. That helps a bit.

Bj?rn Persson
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From bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se  Tue Apr 21 00:11:13 2009
From: bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bj=F6rn_Persson?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:11:13 +0200
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
Message-ID: <200904210211.14022.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>

Thank you all for your answers. I'll try to make sure that any arch-specific 
files have arch-specific pathnames.

Bj?rn Persson
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From peter.hutterer at who-t.net  Tue Apr 21 00:15:11 2009
From: peter.hutterer at who-t.net (Peter Hutterer)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:15:11 +1000
Subject: My first DontZap use case while testing F11 beta
In-Reply-To: <gsi7br$c93$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <200904170137.06104.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1239918951.9867.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<364d303b0904170302w13f42867n789ff3d59c541a67@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9c612bf0904170843q61c91046w4d17d18fe4a75753@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090417165204.GA16462@srcf.ucam.org>
	<20090417183839.GB4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8DA50.5030405@homer.se>
	<20090417203221.GD4798@iota.trudheim.co.uk>
	<49E8F49E.5090604@homer.se> <gsi7br$c93$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090421001509.GA21975@dingo.redhat.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:20:10AM -0500, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
>> The important thing is that this removal can create problems for new  
>> user of Linux. Why should we learn them to restart the whole machine  
>> when it is not needed, and even may create extra data loss, and even  
>> problems with the file system.
>
> It occurs to me... has anyone considered that we are teaching users that  
> GNU/Linux is just as bad as Windows with this change?
>
> It used to be: no, no, this is *GNU/Linux*! An X crash isn't the total  
> system failure it is in Windows, just hit c-a-bs and you're instantly  
> back at your login.
>
> Now we're making X problems into: yeah, you have to reboot, wait for the  
> system to come back... oh, and wait for it to run scandi^Wfsck (and  
> better pray the FS didn't get hosed)...
>
> So much for GNU/Linux being better than Windows.

The world isn't black or white. Since the invention of light we have
greyscales too (I believe this even was a zero-day update, according to the
book of Genesis).

So their X crashed. Tell them that this can happen and if they tick the
checkbox next time they can hit c-a-b to avoid rebooting.

They know now that the shortcut exists, they know they have enabled it
explictly, they know how to disable it if they don't want it. They can even
select the keyboard sequence they want (once we actually have a few to select
from).

You have tought them something, and maybe they feel better for learning a bit
of how their computer works, and that they can with little effort configure
the computer to suit their needs better.

Then again, maybe they don't want to learn this. Maybe they don't want to hit
c-a-b because they don't understand or care that crashing the windowing system
!= crashing the operating system (and hitting the power button is something
they're comfortable with).

Or maybe somewhere in the middle. 

Cheers,
  Peter



From a.badger at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 00:15:10 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:15:10 -0700
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
In-Reply-To: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49ED100E.5070800@gmail.com>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> As I mentioned in an earlier thread I was interested in reducing the
> number of gpg keys down to one per release.  Currently we have two, one
> we sign development builds with during beta/preview and updates-testing,
> and then one we sign the released packages with and the stable updates
> with.  Multiple keys per release creates a lot of churn, reduces the
> number of hardlinks we can maintain, and causes a lot of delay in
> getting package sets prepped for the different releases.  As such I'm
> proposing that we reduce the keys down to one per release, used for all
> the scenarios listed, starting with Fedora 11.

Would it make sense from a security and release standpoint to still have
two keys but to divide their use differently?

Key 1 is for beta/preview/release.
Key 2 is for updates-testing/updates.

It seems like this would prevent most of the churn surrounding resigning
since the resigning happens between packages from (beta => preview =>
release) and (updates-testing => updates) rather than (release => updates).

It would also mean that we could create a revocation certificate for Key
1 and then delete the private key after beta/preview/release.  That
would limit the time a malicious party could compromise the key used to
sign rpms on media and in the release tree which seems like it would
give us a better chance of having a known good base should we ever be
faced with distrusting packages that made it into our repository.

Security is hard, though, so maybe someone can point out an error in my
thinking :-)

-Toshio

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From markg85 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 00:28:10 2009
From: markg85 at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:28:10 +0200
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
In-Reply-To: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <6e24a8e80904201728p766bf2fcree1c9166bcbd8878@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:17 AM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> As I mentioned in an earlier thread I was interested in reducing the
> number of gpg keys down to one per release. ?Currently we have two, one
> we sign development builds with during beta/preview and updates-testing,
> and then one we sign the released packages with and the stable updates
> with. ?Multiple keys per release creates a lot of churn, reduces the
> number of hardlinks we can maintain, and causes a lot of delay in
> getting package sets prepped for the different releases. ?As such I'm
> proposing that we reduce the keys down to one per release, used for all
> the scenarios listed, starting with Fedora 11. ?There is already a
> Fedora 11 key that was used to sign beta and will be used to sign
> preview release, I would just revoke / delete the current ID which
> mentions testing and replace it with an ID of just "Fedora 11".
> fedora-release will be modified to handle this in the repo files as
> well.
>
> If there are no strong reasonable objections this will happen early this
> week in time for the Preview release.
>

Sounds like a good thing to do.

Just one other thing i notice here.
Look at what you've done here. You seggest something and are going to
implement it unless you get some feedback that lets you think. That on
it's own is no problem for me.

The problem i see is that when anyone wants to request anything to be
done in fedora they have to:
- Write a detailed page on the wiki
- Make a bugzille feature request
- wait some time till it's reviewed (can be days, weeks or even months if ever)
- let it be approved by fesco

and what else did i forget.
I have to mention with that that it's just how i see new stuff getting
in (or rejected).
No first hand experience here but only how i witness it.

So now i'm wondering.. how come that you can get something in within a
mather of hours and without explaining a lot or having to fill in a
wiki proposal page? shouldn't you (specially you because your a redhat
employee and should be an example for the rest) go through the same
lenghty path as all other people have to do when they want to change
anything at all in fedora? Somehow what you did seems a bit unfair to
everyone making lengty proposals and letting them pass through all the
required steps.

Just my observation here.



From a.badger at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 00:47:48 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:47:48 -0700
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904201728p766bf2fcree1c9166bcbd8878@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6e24a8e80904201728p766bf2fcree1c9166bcbd8878@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49ED17B4.1050102@gmail.com>

Mark wrote:

> Just one other thing i notice here.
> Look at what you've done here. You seggest something and are going to
> implement it unless you get some feedback that lets you think. That on
> it's own is no problem for me.
> 
> The problem i see is that when anyone wants to request anything to be
> done in fedora they have to:
> - Write a detailed page on the wiki
> - Make a bugzille feature request
> - wait some time till it's reviewed (can be days, weeks or even months if ever)
> - let it be approved by fesco
> 
> and what else did i forget.
> I have to mention with that that it's just how i see new stuff getting
> in (or rejected).
> No first hand experience here but only how i witness it.
> 
> So now i'm wondering.. how come that you can get something in within a
> mather of hours and without explaining a lot or having to fill in a
> wiki proposal page? shouldn't you (specially you because your a redhat
> employee and should be an example for the rest) go through the same
> lenghty path as all other people have to do when they want to change
> anything at all in fedora? Somehow what you did seems a bit unfair to
> everyone making lengty proposals and letting them pass through all the
> required steps.
> 
> Just my observation here.
> 
Different things being done with different goals.  The process you list
seems to be a hybrid of Package Review and the Feature Process.  Package
Review has a bugzilla ticket in order to get the package looked at by
more than one person and to check for known problems that have been
written down in the Guidelines.  The Feature Process requires a detailed
wiki page so that the Feature can be reported to end users and the media.

Most infrastructure and rel-eng changes don't affect end-users in the
same way as new Features or new packages.  They affect the delivery of
the software to the user but they don't affect the user's experience
with the software once installed.  So the need to document for the
end-user what's going on is not the same.  If changing to a single key
changed the security ramifications to the user or changed how they
interact with the software, then a Feature Request and FESCo review may
have been warranted.

Similarly, other changes that do have a large impact on others (not just
end-users but Fedora developers too), are run by FESCo for approval
before being implemented.  Things like the provenpackager acl changes
are a good example of something initiated by Jesse that were discussed
at length before being approved by FESCo and implemented.

-Toshio

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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 21 01:07:40 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 03:07:40 +0200
Subject: development packages and multilib
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>

Tom Lane wrote:
> I'm not entirely sure what's the point of this rule, given that if you
> have any binary executables the two packages aren't going to be
> concurrently installable anyway.  But I suppose a lot of -devel packages
> don't need to do that.

The idea is that it should not matter which binary is run, e.g. whether you
run 32-bit or 64-bit bison, you'll (hopefully) get the same generated
parser.

Of course this breaks horribly if the binary is something like kde4-config
(you'll want kde4-config --libsuffix and the like to return different
results for 32-bit or 64-bit builds), and we don't have a good solution for
that. (Yes, kde4-config is an ELF binary, not a script.)

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 21 01:12:42 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 03:12:42 +0200
Subject: changelog format
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49ECDA73.2090901@redhat.com> <49ECDB10.4070500@jcomserv.net>
	<1240260635.3170.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsj6ia$9hm$2@ger.gmane.org>

Jussi Lehtola wrote:
> I don't know how official the guideline at
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/Join
> is, but it states that the CVS changelog format is the same as for the
> spec file changelog.

Well, I paste in the spec file changelog in most cases, but for something
like "fix typo", I'll use freeform sentences in the CVS log and write
nothing into the changelog (unless the typo was bad enough to warrant
building a new release just to fix the typo, then of course I have to write
why I made the new release). (This seems to be pretty close to what David
Cantrell and Jon Ciesla also do, based on their comments.)

Of course I could commit with a blank commit message, then it'd match the
specfile changelog exactly, but blank commit messages suck, they should be
banned from the face of the Earth!

        Kevin Kofler



From oisin.feeley at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 01:15:50 2009
From: oisin.feeley at gmail.com (Oisin Feeley)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:15:50 -0400
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904201728p766bf2fcree1c9166bcbd8878@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6e24a8e80904201728p766bf2fcree1c9166bcbd8878@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e5f157b0904201815h659134cq5c86f3c660a34c1@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:17 AM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com>
> wrote:
> > As I mentioned in an earlier thread I was interested in reducing the
> > number of gpg keys down to one per release.  Currently we have two, one
> > we sign development builds with during beta/preview and updates-testing,
> > and then one we sign the released packages with and the stable updates
> > with.  Multiple keys per release creates a lot of churn, reduces the
> > number of hardlinks we can maintain, and causes a lot of delay in
> > getting package sets prepped for the different releases.  As such I'm
> > proposing that we reduce the keys down to one per release, used for all
> > the scenarios listed, starting with Fedora 11.  There is already a
> > Fedora 11 key that was used to sign beta and will be used to sign
> > preview release, I would just revoke / delete the current ID which
> > mentions testing and replace it with an ID of just "Fedora 11".
> > fedora-release will be modified to handle this in the repo files as
> > well.
> >
> > If there are no strong reasonable objections this will happen early this
> > week in time for the Preview release.
> >
>
> Sounds like a good thing to do.
>
> Just one other thing i notice here.
> Look at what you've done here. You seggest something and are going to
> implement it unless you get some feedback that lets you think. That on
> it's own is no problem for me.
>
> The problem i see is that when anyone wants to request anything to be
> done in fedora they have to:
> - Write a detailed page on the wiki
> - Make a bugzille feature request
> - wait some time till it's reviewed (can be days, weeks or even months if
> ever)
> - let it be approved by fesco
>
> and what else did i forget.
> I have to mention with that that it's just how i see new stuff getting
> in (or rejected).
> No first hand experience here but only how i witness it.
>
> So now i'm wondering.. how come that you can get something in within a
> mather of hours and without explaining a lot


To be fair it's not just a couple of hours.  The idea was first mooted on
2009-01-16

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue159#New_GPG_Signing_Keys_for_Each_Release

and did not seem to stimulate much in the way of objections.
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 01:16:19 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:16:19 -0700
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <1240269484.14173.664.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240265710.3101.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240269484.14173.664.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240276579.3101.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 16:18 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> so you manually write the one with extra bumph that could easily be
> automatically generated, and then use that to produce the one which
> *doesn't* have extra bumph that could easily be automatically
> generated? :)

I'm not sure I follow.  CVS sort of lends itself to doing a days worth
of changes in one commit, so it's work work work, documenting work as
you go in the .spec file  (although often it's just "new upstream
release" or "patch for $foo", then when you're ready to make it happen
it's "make clog && cvs commit -F clog && make tag build"

Now if we were using a scm that was more geared toward commit as you go,
we might consider something different, but even then what you want to
expose to users isn't necessarily the same thing you want to document
when doing SCM commits.  Here is where git is neat with the shortlog,
where you oneline your change, but then can expand upon it in another
paragraph that will be seen when looking at the git log, but won't be
seen if you do a simple short log (like say for stuffing in a .spec
file).

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 01:18:06 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:18:06 -0700
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
In-Reply-To: <49ED100E.5070800@gmail.com>
References: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49ED100E.5070800@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240276686.3101.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 17:15 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> 
> Would it make sense from a security and release standpoint to still have
> two keys but to divide their use differently?
> 
> Key 1 is for beta/preview/release.
> Key 2 is for updates-testing/updates.
> 
> It seems like this would prevent most of the churn surrounding resigning
> since the resigning happens between packages from (beta => preview =>
> release) and (updates-testing => updates) rather than (release => updates).
> 
> It would also mean that we could create a revocation certificate for Key
> 1 and then delete the private key after beta/preview/release.  That
> would limit the time a malicious party could compromise the key used to
> sign rpms on media and in the release tree which seems like it would
> give us a better chance of having a known good base should we ever be
> faced with distrusting packages that made it into our repository.
> 
> Security is hard, though, so maybe someone can point out an error in my
> thinking :-)

RPM et al doesn't yet understand revocation certs, so that isn't going
to help you much there.  Other than that, since we'll be using new keys
each release, I'm not even sure how much added value there would be in
using two different keys.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 21 01:25:17 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 03:25:17 +0200
Subject: changelog format
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
Message-ID: <gsj79u$bei$1@ger.gmane.org>

Bj?rn Persson wrote:
> I gather I'm expected to write the changelog in a spec file by hand. How
> strict are the requirements on the format of changelog entries? Are they
> meant to be machine-readable? Is the format specified anywhere? The
> packaging guidelines document contains four examples. Examples are good
> but they're no replacement for a specification.

The format is fairly straightforward:

* first line (elements separated by spaces):
  - asterisk
  - date in Wkd Mth dd yyyy format (e.g. Mon Apr 21 2009)
    (if the day is just 1 digit, you can write any of "1", " 1" or "01")
  - your name
  - your e-mail address between angle brackets ('<' and '>')
  - optionally a dash
  - the EVR (Epoch-Version-Release) of the package, without the disttag,
    e.g. 3.5.10-1 for 3.5.10-1.fc11, 3.5.10-1.1 for 3.5.10-1.fc11.1,
         6:4.2.2-1 if the package has Epoch 6 (the Epoch is specified only
         if present and you use a ':' between Epoch and Version)
* any other lines (elements separated by spaces):
  - dash (plain ASCII dash, please don't use some strange UTF-8 character)
  - text describing your change
  - if your change doesn't fit in one line, start a new line and indent it
    with 2 spaces, so it is aligned with the text above (which has a dash
    and a space)
  - bugs should be referenced as (#666666) (or, if there's any chance of
    confusion, (rh#666666)) for Fedora bugs and as (foo#666666), where foo
    is the relevant bug tracker (e.g. kde, sf, fdo etc.), for upstream bugs

        Kevin Kofler



From a.badger at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 01:36:56 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:36:56 -0700
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
In-Reply-To: <1240276686.3101.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49ED100E.5070800@gmail.com>
	<1240276686.3101.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49ED2338.3080506@gmail.com>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 17:15 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
>> Would it make sense from a security and release standpoint to still have
>> two keys but to divide their use differently?
>>
>> Key 1 is for beta/preview/release.
>> Key 2 is for updates-testing/updates.
>>
>> It seems like this would prevent most of the churn surrounding resigning
>> since the resigning happens between packages from (beta => preview =>
>> release) and (updates-testing => updates) rather than (release => updates).
>>
>> It would also mean that we could create a revocation certificate for Key
>> 1 and then delete the private key after beta/preview/release.  That
>> would limit the time a malicious party could compromise the key used to
>> sign rpms on media and in the release tree which seems like it would
>> give us a better chance of having a known good base should we ever be
>> faced with distrusting packages that made it into our repository.
>>
>> Security is hard, though, so maybe someone can point out an error in my
>> thinking :-)
> 
> RPM et al doesn't yet understand revocation certs, so that isn't going
> to help you much there. 

Yeah, the revocation cert is so we can revoke it from any key servers.
Nothing rpm related.

 Other than that, since we'll be using new keys
> each release, I'm not even sure how much added value there would be in
> using two different keys.
> 
The added value is that once the release was cut, the key for the
release would no longer be able to be stolen.  So that cuts the window
of vulnerability.  But it only cuts the window a maximum of 13 months:

* Anytime before the release, the key could be stolen in either
scenario.  A key stolen in this way could be used to compromise the
initial release after the release is cut

(1) With a single key, from release to 13 months out, the key could be
stolen and potentially be used to inject bad packages into either the
release or updates tree.

(2) With two keys, from release to 13 months out, the key to the updates
repo could be stolen and used to inject bad packages into the updates
repo only.  The release repo would be safe.

Related thoughts:

For us to trust the release repo and only rekey the updates repo, we'd
need to know the time that a key could have been stolen.  If we couldn't
determine that, we'd want to rekey both repos just to be safe.

The release repo is easier to verify (at least in part) than the updates
repo because we generally have media that we can compare against for at
least part of the package set.

-Toshio

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From tgl at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 01:45:21 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:45:21 -0400
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker 
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17148.1240278321@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> writes:
> I was just reading the latest distrowatch weekly and there was an
> interesting article posted there about a centralized bug tracking
> system for all of foss including all of the foss operating systems
> (fedora, ubuntu, mandriva.. you get the idea).

A bug tracker the size of Red Hat's or Debian's is already impossible to
find anything in.  I shudder to imagine how unusable the One Tracker
To Rule Them All would be.

			regards, tom lane



From john5342 at googlemail.com  Tue Apr 21 02:04:41 2009
From: john5342 at googlemail.com (John5342)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 03:04:41 +0100
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/20 Mark <markg85 at gmail.com>:
> Hi,
>
> I was just reading the latest distrowatch weekly and there was an
> interesting article posted there about a centralized bug tracking
> system for all of foss including all of the foss operating systems
> (fedora, ubuntu, mandriva.. you get the idea).

Another issue is that every developer, packager, user, etc has there
own preferred work flow. It's hard enough getting something the size
of Fedora to agree on a shared work flow. Now imagine something 10,
20, 100 time the size. I think a centralized bug tracker is a great
idea but i doubt it would work.

What i would be interested in though is some kind of standardised api
implemented in all the major bug trackers so other things can be
easily implemented on top of them such as semi automated up-streaming
of bugs. Making use of something like OpenID would reduce the multiple
login issue.

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary
and those who don't...



From jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Apr 21 02:15:22 2009
From: jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk (James Gallagher)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:15:22 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
Message-ID: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


The problem of space on the DVD has been an issue in the last few DVD releases of Fedora, requiring the removal of previously included packages.

Now, isn't it the case that many fedora users download F8, F9, F10 ... iso images every 6 months or so?

So wouldn't it make sense to have a delta image made from successive releases and an accompanying script which would read from a previously existing iso image or disk and recreate the "full" iso image, splitting it into 2 dvd disc images if required or merging for transfer to a double-sided dvd or large usb stick?

(I don't think it would be a huge ask of anaconda to install from 2 disks rather than 1)

Even if the image size is kept below 4.3GB for a single disk, the delta download would be welcomed by many.

After all, I think some of the large language packages would have a pretty small delta between 6 month release cycles.

btw, I don't expect this ready for F11 ;)


      



From konrad at tylerc.org  Tue Apr 21 02:19:56 2009
From: konrad at tylerc.org (Conrad Meyer)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:19:56 -0700
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200904201919.56256.konrad@tylerc.org>

On Monday 20 April 2009 07:15:22 pm James Gallagher wrote:
> The problem of space on the DVD has been an issue in the last few DVD
> releases of Fedora, requiring the removal of previously included packages.
>
> Now, isn't it the case that many fedora users download F8, F9, F10 ... iso
> images every 6 months or so?
>
> So wouldn't it make sense to have a delta image made from successive
> releases and an accompanying script which would read from a previously
> existing iso image or disk and recreate the "full" iso image, splitting it
> into 2 dvd disc images if required or merging for transfer to a
> double-sided dvd or large usb stick?
>
> (I don't think it would be a huge ask of anaconda to install from 2 disks
> rather than 1)
>
> Even if the image size is kept below 4.3GB for a single disk, the delta
> download would be welcomed by many.
>
> After all, I think some of the large language packages would have a pretty
> small delta between 6 month release cycles.
>
> btw, I don't expect this ready for F11 ;)

It's called jigdo.

-- 
Conrad Meyer <konrad at tylerc.org>



From jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Apr 21 02:26:44 2009
From: jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk (James Gallagher)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:26:44 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
Message-ID: <948431.28085.qm@web26705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



> 
> It's called jigdo.
> 
> -- 
> Conrad Meyer <konrad at tylerc.org>
> 

no it isn't, the end user still has to download +4gb with jigdo. 

or, were you being funny?


      



From davehoz at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 02:41:05 2009
From: davehoz at gmail.com (David Hunter)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:41:05 +1000
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <948431.28085.qm@web26705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <948431.28085.qm@web26705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6bb886180904201941u1245bf79y4c142c152f092442@mail.gmail.com>

Or another suggestion - I'm not an expert - but what about a net-upgrade
where anaconda uses presto data to upgrade the old system to the new one.
Slightly OT, but is there any chance of getting openoffice.org-core working
better as a presto update?

2009/4/21 James Gallagher <jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk>

>
>
> >
> > It's called jigdo.
> >
> > --
> > Conrad Meyer <konrad at tylerc.org>
> >
>
> no it isn't, the end user still has to download +4gb with jigdo.
>
> or, were you being funny?
>
>
>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
David Hunter
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 21 02:42:15 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:42:15 +0200
Subject: Getting rid of /usr for F12?
References: <20090416235806.GA22410@tango.0pointer.de>
	<49ECD83C.3020208@redhat.com>
	<1240266534.3101.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsjbq7$j1d$1@ger.gmane.org>

Jesse Keating wrote:

> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 16:17 -0400, Peter Jones wrote:
>> What problem is it that
>> you're trying to solve?
> 
> People complaining about c-a-bs and /sbin in path.

By giving them something else to complain about? Interesting strategy... ;-)

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 21 02:47:24 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:47:24 +0200
Subject: changelog format
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240265710.3101.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsjc3s$j1d$2@ger.gmane.org>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> Because we do it the other way around.  'make clog && cvs commit -F
> clog'  Use the rpm changelog for cvs.

How I do it is that I just select my changelog entry in the editor (usually
the embedded KatePart in Krusader, though sometimes I use the standalone
KWrite or Kate), middle-click it into the textbox in Cervisia and click
OK. :-)

Am I the only one using a CVS GUI around here?

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 21 02:56:01 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:56:01 +0200
Subject: ck-run-in-desktop (was: Re: gnome keyring daemon from cron job)
References: <1240233370.19276.2.camel@choeger6>
	<1240235373.19436.0.camel@choeger6>
	<faa16b610904201008k66c22ad8kc3031c2c12b7e7ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240252288.4021.1.camel@choeger6>
	<faa16b610904201207x29d16bc5q621d0d62b573680a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gsjck3$klb$1@ger.gmane.org>

Colin Walters wrote:
> Aside from patching cron we should really ship a "ck-run-in-desktop"
> command with ConsoleKit, it wouldn't be difficult to write.

+1

This would be extremely useful. Right now there's no clean way to run a
command which talks to the D-Bus session bus from somewhere outside the
session.

For example, we'd need this to properly detect whether PowerDevil is
running. (Right now, acpid disables itself whenever kded4 is running to
prevent breaking PowerDevil, but that doesn't mean PowerDevil is actually
running, as kded4 is run whenever a KDE app runs, but only handles services
such as PowerDevil if you're actually running KDE. What we'd need is a way
to talk to kded4 over D-Bus to ask it whether PowerDevil is running. But
kded4 runs on the session bus, not the system bus.)

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 21 03:01:05 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:01:05 +0200
Subject: runtime dependencies on .so symlinks
References: <gshi3h$1qb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090420123015.35c26c93@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <gsjcth$klb$2@ger.gmane.org>

Michael Schwendt wrote:
> The better alternative is to patch the app and make it load the version
> shared library files.

+1, that's usually the correct solution.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 21 03:18:13 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:18:13 +0200
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
References: <948431.28085.qm@web26705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<6bb886180904201941u1245bf79y4c142c152f092442@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gsjdtl$klb$3@ger.gmane.org>

David Hunter wrote:
> Or another suggestion - I'm not an expert - but what about a net-upgrade
> where anaconda uses presto data to upgrade the old system to the new one.

That should be possible with preupgrade (though I'm not sure whether it
works with the current preupgrade or not).

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin at scrye.com  Tue Apr 21 03:31:15 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:31:15 -0600
Subject: PackageKit and Presto
In-Reply-To: <1240224741.20721.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240129585.3089.7.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
	<1240224741.20721.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090420213115.2e063b08@ohm.scrye.com>

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:52:21 +0100
Richard Hughes <hughsient at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 10:26 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> > So I though I'd ask. Is anyone working on this? Should I expect it
> > to be working at F11 GA?
> 
> I've pushed a fix and asked for the build to be tagged here:
> https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/1542
> 
> I'm also quite surprised we turned this on by default post-devel
> freeze.

It's not on by default, nor will it be for F-11... it will only be
enabled for folks that go and install 'yum-presto'. 

If everything looks great, we can enable it by default in F12. ;) 

> 
> Richard.
> 

kevin

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From kevin at scrye.com  Tue Apr 21 03:37:28 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:37:28 -0600
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <gsc8qb$kf$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<hz1vrqlhas.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1240029173.9867.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsc8qb$kf$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090420213728.08eb4811@ohm.scrye.com>

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:08:11 +0200
Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> wrote:

> Jesse Keating wrote:
> > Also, it means that not all of our package set has the
> > sha256 checksum, which is a checkbox item.
> 
> Speaking of that, can RPM itself be built with SHA256 now that F11
> Beta is out? IMHO it doesn't make sense to still support upgrades
> (directly) from F11 Alpha.

Yeah, I agree. Panu? 

> 
>         Kevin Kofler
> 

kevin
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From wtogami at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 03:40:42 2009
From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:40:42 -0400
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49ED403A.6000206@redhat.com>

On 04/20/2009 10:15 PM, James Gallagher wrote:
>
> After all, I think some of the large language packages would have a
> pretty small delta between 6 month release cycles.
>

Note that nearly every package is rebuilt between releases.

For this to make any difference at all, it would have to delta not only 
the bits of the RPM packages, but delta the uncompressed RPMS against 
each other.

Does any tool do this today across an entire ISO image?

Warren Togami
wtogami at redhat.com



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 03:47:49 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:47:49 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us>  <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:07 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
> > I'm not entirely sure what's the point of this rule, given that if you
> > have any binary executables the two packages aren't going to be
> > concurrently installable anyway.  But I suppose a lot of -devel packages
> > don't need to do that.
> 
> The idea is that it should not matter which binary is run, e.g. whether you
> run 32-bit or 64-bit bison, you'll (hopefully) get the same generated
> parser.
> 
> Of course this breaks horribly if the binary is something like kde4-config
> (you'll want kde4-config --libsuffix and the like to return different
> results for 32-bit or 64-bit builds), and we don't have a good solution for
> that. (Yes, kde4-config is an ELF binary, not a script.)

Because KDE always has to be different and inevitably manages to Do It
Wrong.
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 21 04:05:19 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:05:19 +0200
Subject: development packages and multilib
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsjglv$r7h$1@ger.gmane.org>

Callum Lerwick wrote:
> Because KDE always has to be different and inevitably manages to Do It
> Wrong.

How else are scripts supposed to figure out whether the current distribution
and platform uses lib64 or lib or even lib32? Other than
kde4-config --libsuffix (or the KDE 3 kde-config --libsuffix), I don't
really see a clean way.

        Kevin Kofler



From jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Apr 21 04:08:09 2009
From: jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk (James Gallagher)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:08:09 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
Message-ID: <251997.17038.qm@web26707.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


No, there is no tool which does that, but I bet I could write one. Rather than trying to fiddle the current delta-rpm procedure to do this it could be done naively using similar techniques: each rpm from F11 release iso is compared against corresponding rpm (if it exists) in F10 release iso, essentially by unpacking and calculating diffs for each component in the rpm package. Then repack only the components that have changed and append to a list components that can be retrieved from rpms on the f10 release. I bet even doing that would give a substantial saving. 

I'll do a test when F11 final comes out and see if I can get the x86_64 DVD deltas below 1gb. The rest of the iso is only ~300mb mainly from two files: I'm not sure if a useful delta between the (binary) boot.iso and stage2.img files can be created, but it seems mathematically feasible

--- On Tue, 21/4/09, Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> wrote:

> From: Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com>
> Subject: Re: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
> To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Date: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009, 4:40 AM
> On 04/20/2009 10:15 PM, James
> Gallagher wrote:
> > 
> > After all, I think some of the large language packages
> would have a
> > pretty small delta between 6 month release cycles.
> > 
> 
> Note that nearly every package is rebuilt between
> releases.
> 
> For this to make any difference at all, it would have to
> delta not only the bits of the RPM packages, but delta the
> uncompressed RPMS against each other.
> 
> Does any tool do this today across an entire ISO image?
> 
> Warren Togami
> wtogami at redhat.com
> 
> -- fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
> 


      



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 04:29:02 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:29:02 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
Message-ID: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>

So, the shiny new pulseaudio mixer setup in F11 took away my ability to
tell the panel applet which channel to use. It seems to insist on
messing with the master. I have a second computer hooked in to the line
in, so it can share speakers with my main box. I had it set up so the
master volume was set on maximum, and the panel volume thingy adjusted
the PCM volume. This allowed me to adjust volumes separately, the
secondary box stayed at a constant volume and the main box could be
adjusted freely without affecting the secondary machine.

How do I get this behavior back?

(Someday I'll just get me a proper studio mixer. Sigh...)
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 04:32:55 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:32:55 -0700
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <1240276579.3101.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240265710.3101.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240269484.14173.664.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240276579.3101.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240288375.14173.672.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 18:16 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 16:18 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > so you manually write the one with extra bumph that could easily be
> > automatically generated, and then use that to produce the one which
> > *doesn't* have extra bumph that could easily be automatically
> > generated? :)
> 
> I'm not sure I follow.  CVS sort of lends itself to doing a days worth
> of changes in one commit, so it's work work work, documenting work as
> you go in the .spec file  (although often it's just "new upstream
> release" or "patch for $foo", then when you're ready to make it happen
> it's "make clog && cvs commit -F clog && make tag build"
> 
> Now if we were using a scm that was more geared toward commit as you go,
> we might consider something different, but even then what you want to
> expose to users isn't necessarily the same thing you want to document
> when doing SCM commits.  Here is where git is neat with the shortlog,
> where you oneline your change, but then can expand upon it in another
> paragraph that will be seen when looking at the git log, but won't be
> seen if you do a simple short log (like say for stuffing in a .spec
> file).

OK, I see what you're driving at now. But you missed one point I wrote
on the issue of where you want the two to be different - you can just
implement a keyword for commit messages which causes it not to go into
the RPM changelog, viz:

cvs commit -m "this commit message will go into the RPM changelog"
cvs commit -m "SILENT: but this one won't!"

pretty simple.

However, now I get your point, I agree that the issue of switching SCMs
would be more significant and an appropriate place to look at this issue
too. CVS is pretty creaky these days.

FWIW, when I was working on packages at That Other Place, I would work
work work all day and then commit too, but with a commit message that
looked like this:

- one change
- another change
- yet another change
- SILENT: a trivial change i don't want to go in the RPM changelog

and that all got parsed correctly into the RPM changelog, in the way
you'd expect it to.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 04:33:50 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:33:50 -0700
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <gsjc3s$j1d$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240265710.3101.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsjc3s$j1d$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240288430.14173.673.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 04:47 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
> > Because we do it the other way around.  'make clog && cvs commit -F
> > clog'  Use the rpm changelog for cvs.
> 
> How I do it is that I just select my changelog entry in the editor (usually
> the embedded KatePart in Krusader, though sometimes I use the standalone
> KWrite or Kate), middle-click it into the textbox in Cervisia and click
> OK. :-)
> 
> Am I the only one using a CVS GUI around here?

Heh. Interesting point. I've never used an SCM GUI system, but OTOH, I
always do spec editing (and my limited level of hacking, and all other
text editing) in gedit. =)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 04:44:04 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:44:04 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:04 +0100, John5342 wrote:
> What i would be interested in though is some kind of standardised api
> implemented in all the major bug trackers so other things can be
> easily implemented on top of them such as semi automated up-streaming
> of bugs. Making use of something like OpenID would reduce the multiple
> login issue.

+1 the Open Source world fixing the Single Sign-on problem would go a
long way towards solving much irritation. I suppose it's a matter of
getting everyone to support OpenID...
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From mmaslano at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 05:24:28 2009
From: mmaslano at redhat.com (Marcela Maslanova)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 07:24:28 +0200
Subject: gnome keyring daemon from cron job
In-Reply-To: <1240255221.4021.5.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240233370.19276.2.camel@choeger6>	<1240235373.19436.0.camel@choeger6>	<faa16b610904201008k66c22ad8kc3031c2c12b7e7ec@mail.gmail.com>	<1240252288.4021.1.camel@choeger6>	<faa16b610904201207x29d16bc5q621d0d62b573680a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240255221.4021.5.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <49ED588C.7080005@redhat.com>

On 04/20/2009 09:20 PM, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> Am Montag, den 20.04.2009, 15:07 -0400 schrieb Colin Walters:
>> 2009/4/20 Christoph H?ger<choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>:
>>> I could fix that by adding DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=autolaunch: to the
>>> cron job. That made gnomekeyring reachable again.
>> If you have an existing desktop session though that will cause things
>> to break most likely though, since you can now get two
>> gnome-keyring-daemon instances both of which are accessing the single
>> keyring file.  If you're not logged in though that works.
>
> Uh? I thought that would launch a new dbus, if none is running. After ~
> 20 cron jobs running with that setting I have only one dbus-daemon and
> on gnomekeyring-daemon running.
>
>> Aside from patching cron we should really ship a "ck-run-in-desktop"
>> command with ConsoleKit, it wouldn't be difficult to write.
>
> Yepp, definetely.
> But that does not help a lot since the program simply fails if there is
> no gnome running ;)
> My current problem is, that the cronjob used to know
> DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS in earlier releases.
>
>
Cron didn't check for this particular environment variable. It's only 
save the user's environment and run job with saved setting. I didn't 
change anything what should break previous behaviour, so the changes 
would be elsewhere.

-- 
Marcela Ma?l??ov?
BaseOS team Brno



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 05:48:43 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:48:43 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <gsjglv$r7h$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsjglv$r7h$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240292923.14092.279.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 06:05 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > Because KDE always has to be different and inevitably manages to Do It
> > Wrong.
> 
> How else are scripts supposed to figure out whether the current distribution
> and platform uses lib64 or lib or even lib32? Other than
> kde4-config --libsuffix (or the KDE 3 kde-config --libsuffix), I don't
> really see a clean way.

What scripts that do what? Why does no other software in Fedora seem to
have this problem? Why do I have to have
QTDIR/QTINC/QTLIB/QT_PLUGIN_PATH crap in my environment? Why is kdelibs
among the biggest packages on my system?

...Why is libgweather alone bigger than kdelibs? Why isn't everything
in /usr/share/gnome/help marked %doc?

Bloat bloat bloat bloat. Wait what was I talking about...
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From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 06:04:19 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:34:19 +0530
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904202304g2cb605fau4cb973850dca685d@mail.gmail.com>

> Maintainer ? Package ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Co-maintainers
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> kdudka ? ? ? curl ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(none)

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496778

Happy hacking,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 21 06:07:43 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:07:43 +0200
Subject: development packages and multilib
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsjglv$r7h$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240292923.14092.279.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsjnrf$5d8$5@ger.gmane.org>

Callum Lerwick wrote:
> ...Why is libgweather alone bigger than kdelibs?

http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/11394/195305.aspx
(No, I'm not the one who posted that thread.)

        Kevin Kofler



From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Tue Apr 21 06:23:49 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?iso-8859-1?q?Skytt=E4?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:23:49 +0300
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904201340h1c79b418s866ebde350bffebf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904190022v4ec3f488m21b1c4ab438246e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904201340h1c79b418s866ebde350bffebf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904210923.50264.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Monday 20 April 2009, Adam Miller wrote:
> I was unfortunately not able to get to the packages that are mine the
> other day, but I was able to start some work on them today. Here is my
> question at risk of sounding like I have no clue what I'm doing: "What
> process should I follow to verify that I have fixed the issue?". I
> read the wiki link that was posted
> (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Debuginfo) and did verify
> that one of the packages in question (shed) had a -s in the install
> section of the makefile, so I created a patch for the Makefile.in and
> wanted to find a way to test the resulting package before submitting
> it as a patch or a fix.

Quick surface check: build the package, look at the build logs and verify that 
the expected $RPM_OPT_FLAGS (not only -g) are there and that there are no 
"install -s", "gcc -s", "ld -s", "strip" or the like in it, run rpm -qlp (or 
rpmls) on the debuginfo package, verify that it contains both *.debug as well 
as source files.  The new debuginfo package should also be larger, sometimes 
much larger, than the non-fixed one.



From pingou at pingoured.fr  Tue Apr 21 06:41:42 2009
From: pingou at pingoured.fr (Pierre-Yves)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:41:42 +0200
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <gsj79u$bei$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<gsj79u$bei$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240296102.3049.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:25 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> The format is fairly straightforward:
> 
> * first line (elements separated by spaces):
>   - asterisk
>   - date in Wkd Mth dd yyyy format (e.g. Mon Apr 21 2009)
>     (if the day is just 1 digit, you can write any of "1", " 1" or "01")
>   - your name
>   - your e-mail address between angle brackets ('<' and '>')
>   - optionally a dash
>   - the EVR (Epoch-Version-Release) of the package, without the disttag,
>     e.g. 3.5.10-1 for 3.5.10-1.fc11, 3.5.10-1.1 for 3.5.10-1.fc11.1,
>          6:4.2.2-1 if the package has Epoch 6 (the Epoch is specified only
>          if present and you use a ':' between Epoch and Version)

> * any other lines (elements separated by spaces):
>   - dash (plain ASCII dash, please don't use some strange UTF-8 character)
>   - text describing your change
>   - if your change doesn't fit in one line, start a new line and indent it
>     with 2 spaces, so it is aligned with the text above (which has a dash
>     and a space)
>   - bugs should be referenced as (#666666) (or, if there's any chance of
>     confusion, (rh#666666)) for Fedora bugs and as (foo#666666), where foo
>     is the relevant bug tracker (e.g. kde, sf, fdo etc.), for upstream bugs
( I have always been told that there should be one empty line between
two entry :) )

Regards,
Pierre



From jdieter at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 06:56:16 2009
From: jdieter at gmail.com (Jonathan Dieter)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:56:16 +0300
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <49ED403A.6000206@redhat.com>
References: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<49ED403A.6000206@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240296976.23716.5.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 23:40 -0400, Warren Togami wrote:
> On 04/20/2009 10:15 PM, James Gallagher wrote:
> >
> > After all, I think some of the large language packages would have a
> > pretty small delta between 6 month release cycles.
> >
> 
> Note that nearly every package is rebuilt between releases.
> 
> For this to make any difference at all, it would have to delta not only 
> the bits of the RPM packages, but delta the uncompressed RPMS against 
> each other.
> 
> Does any tool do this today across an entire ISO image?

There is makedeltaiso in the deltarpm package.  I haven't tested it much
as I don't use the DVD iso images to install.

Jonathan
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From rrakus at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 07:02:09 2009
From: rrakus at redhat.com (Roman Rakus)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:02:09 +0200
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
Message-ID: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>

Hi,
There is a bug (#496780) requesting to use patchlevel of bash as part of 
RPM version. So today bash-4.0-6.fc11.i586 would be 
bash-4.0.16-6.fc11.i586. What do you think about it? Could it break 
anything?
RR



From greno at verizon.net  Tue Apr 21 07:27:44 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 03:27:44 -0400
Subject: Rawhide: No module named gtk
Message-ID: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>

I installed Rawhide today and when I went to launch 
system-config-network it's saying "Import Error: No module named gtk".  
Is there a path problem?  I did a 'yum whatprovides gtk' but it returned 
No packages.  I've rarely installed Rawhide, so maybe I'm missing 
something here.

????

Regards,
Gerry



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Tue Apr 21 07:40:53 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:40:53 +0200
Subject: gnome keyring daemon from cron job
In-Reply-To: <faa16b610904201243g5e10ef2eg7e090548e606726e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240233370.19276.2.camel@choeger6>
	<1240235373.19436.0.camel@choeger6>
	<faa16b610904201008k66c22ad8kc3031c2c12b7e7ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240252288.4021.1.camel@choeger6>
	<faa16b610904201207x29d16bc5q621d0d62b573680a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240255221.4021.5.camel@choeger6>
	<faa16b610904201243g5e10ef2eg7e090548e606726e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240299653.4021.8.camel@choeger6>

Am Montag, den 20.04.2009, 15:43 -0400 schrieb Colin Walters:
> 2009/4/20 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>:
> >
> > Uh? I thought that would launch a new dbus, if none is running. After ~
> > 20 cron jobs running with that setting I have only one dbus-daemon and
> > on gnomekeyring-daemon running.
> 
> The autolaunched bus will terminate after the cron job ends.  Look at
> the process list while your job is running (insert a sleep) and you'll
> likely see two bus instances and two keyring daemons.
> 
> I'm just educated-guessing, I haven't checked though.

So I checked, and got this:

[choeger at choeger6 ~]$ ps axfu | grep dbus
dbus      2257  0.0  0.0  13748  1880 ?        Ssl  Apr20   0:11
dbus-daemon --system
gdm       3129  0.0  0.0   3324   700 ?        S    Apr20
0:00 /usr/bin/dbus-launch --exit-with-session
choeger   3223  0.0  0.0   3324   556 ?        S    Apr20   0:00
dbus-launch --sh-syntax --exit-with-session
choeger   3225  0.0  0.0  13680  1620 ?        Ssl  Apr20
0:01 /bin/dbus-daemon --fork --print-pid 7 --print-address 9 --session
choeger  12479  0.0  0.0   5428   752 pts/6    S+   09:35   0:00      \_
grep dbus

[choeger at choeger6 ~]$ ps axfu | grep keyring
choeger   3202  0.0  0.1  40340  3000 ?        S    Apr20
0:01 /usr/bin/gnome-keyring-daemon --daemonize --login

This no process more than when not running that job.
I guess I'll have to dig a lot deeper into dbus to understand that.

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From kraxel at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 07:41:17 2009
From: kraxel at redhat.com (Gerd Hoffmann)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:41:17 +0200
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
In-Reply-To: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49ED789D.60602@redhat.com>

On 04/21/09 01:17, Jesse Keating wrote:
> As I mentioned in an earlier thread I was interested in reducing the
> number of gpg keys down to one per release.  Currently we have two, one
> we sign development builds with during beta/preview and updates-testing,
> and then one we sign the released packages with and the stable updates
> with.  Multiple keys per release creates a lot of churn, reduces the
> number of hardlinks we can maintain, and causes a lot of delay in
> getting package sets prepped for the different releases.  As such I'm
> proposing that we reduce the keys down to one per release, used for all
> the scenarios listed, starting with Fedora 11.

What is the plan for rawhide?

Would be great if packages don't need to be (re-)signed for (test) 
releases.  So I could ask jidgo to scan the local rawhide mirror for 
packages when composing a beta iso.

cheers,
   Gerd



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 07:59:53 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:59:53 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <gsjnrf$5d8$5@ger.gmane.org>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsjglv$r7h$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240292923.14092.279.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsjnrf$5d8$5@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240300793.14092.316.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 08:07 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > ...Why is libgweather alone bigger than kdelibs?
> 
> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/11394/195305.aspx
> (No, I'm not the one who posted that thread.)

Dear god.

$ cat /usr/share/libgweather/* > /tmp/gweather
$ ls -lh /tmp/gweather
-rw-rw-r--. 1 seg seg  75M 2009-04-21 02:22 /tmp/gweather
$ lzma --best -v /tmp/gweather 
/tmp/gweather:	 98.1% -- replaced with /tmp/gweather.lzma
$ ls -lh /tmp/gweather.lzma
-rw-rw-r--. 1 seg seg 1.5M 2009-04-21 02:11 /tmp/gweather.lzma

73.5M, 98.1% compression! It's only 1.5mb of actual data! Are the
libgweather developers trying to win some kind of award for most bloat?

Someone needs to rethink their data structure. There is an immense
amount of duplicated data between languages. And an absurd amount of XML
overhead.
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From mschwendt at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 08:08:15 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:08:15 +0200
Subject: pkgconfig dep problems in rawhide 20090421
Message-ID: <20090421100815.3a1665d7@faldor.intranet>

Non-devel packages with problematic pkgconfig auto-dependencies
on -devel packages:

    gtk-sharp2      (bz 477308)

    Used to be assigned to avahi-ui-sharp - this needs confirmation
    whether Mono requires .pc files to be present at run-time. If true,
    avahi-ui-sharp => gtk-sharp2-devel pulls it several -devel packages,
    and the .pc file could be moved into gtk-sharp2.


    deskbar-applet  (bz 477309)
    libXaw          (bz 489172)
    gupnp-vala      (bz 496790) NEW



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Tue Apr 21 08:26:42 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:26:42 +0200
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49ED8342.1070108@freenet.de>

Roman Rakus wrote:
> Hi,
> There is a bug (#496780) requesting to use patchlevel of bash as part of 
> RPM version. So today bash-4.0-6.fc11.i586 would be 
> bash-4.0.16-6.fc11.i586. What do you think about it?
It's a bad idea.

c.f. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageNamingGuidelines#Package_Version

Rule of thumb: Try to let an rpm's version match with upstream's version 
whenever possible, otherwise you're very likely to meet conflicts with 
upstream's versioning.

> Could it break anything? 
Well, not actually break, but you (rsp. the Fedora package maintainer) 
are not unlikely to hit NEVR issues with upstream.

E.g. with your proposal you would be in trouble if upstream decides to 
release 4.0.1 - You have to bump epoch: etc.


My recommendation: Either ignore upstream's patch-level in an rpm's NEVR 
and use your own NEVR scheme, or try to incorporate upstream's 
"patch-levels" into an rpm's %release, if you "feel like it".

I would not do so.

Ralf




From ohudlick at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 09:01:35 2009
From: ohudlick at redhat.com (Ondrej Hudlicky)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:01:35 +0200
Subject: 2009-04-21 - Fedora Test Day - Minimal platform
In-Reply-To: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>
References: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>

James Laska wrote, On 04/20/2009 11:03 PM:
> Greetings testers,
> 
> Calling all package gurus and dependency junkies!  The Fedora 11
> MinimalPlatform feature [1] aims to provide a tiny installation package
> set by identifying unwanted deps from @Core and related groups.  As
> described in the feature page, the benefits to Fedora include:
> 
>       * Security - lower the attack surface by installing only necessary
>         packages
>       * Performance - faster installation and less running services
>       * Storage - installation is less than 500MB
> 
> There will also be several new tools available to help navigate
> dependencies, including rpmreaper and rpm2comps. 
> 
> Come join #fedora-qa this Tuesday, April 21 2009 to help put an end to
> deps creep.  Test cases and a Fedora live image will be available to aid
> testing. Stay tuned for more details are available at
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-04-21_Minimal_Platform.
> 
> Thanks,
> James
> 
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MinimalPlatform


Join us today, we have lot of work to do :)

Side goal of this event is also to open discussion and as an output 
improve set of best practices how to handle with dependencies and 
subpackages. This is partly defined in packaging guidelines, but just 
for -doc -static -devel. I might be beneficial to implement wider and 
stricter rules.
Ideally if some rpmlint plugin can check whether the srpm is correctly 
divided into subpackages.

--
Ondrej



From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net  Tue Apr 21 09:13:24 2009
From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:13:24 +0300
Subject: Finding file conflicts
Message-ID: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>

Hi,

I ran into a situation where two packages in F10 (pwlib-devel and
ptlib-devel) contained file conflicts, and yum tried to install
both (in this case there seems to be a bug that made yum ignore the
Obsoletes: line of on of the packages).

If I as a packager craft a package for Fedora, how can I check that
this package's contents aren't accidentially conflicting with another
package in Fedora? Is there some magic python script that would check
a package against a whole repo?

Thanks!
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 09:22:35 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:22:35 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904210222x3f854582m47dadd7646f66bad@mail.gmail.com>

I thought the panel applet was supposed to disappear in Fedora 11? Ardour is
a good studio mixer system, even though it also does professional level
audio editing.

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:

> So, the shiny new pulseaudio mixer setup in F11 took away my ability to
> tell the panel applet which channel to use. It seems to insist on
> messing with the master. I have a second computer hooked in to the line
> in, so it can share speakers with my main box. I had it set up so the
> master volume was set on maximum, and the panel volume thingy adjusted
> the PCM volume. This allowed me to adjust volumes separately, the
> secondary box stayed at a constant volume and the main box could be
> adjusted freely without affecting the secondary machine.
>
> How do I get this behavior back?
>
> (Someday I'll just get me a proper studio mixer. Sigh...)
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From the.masch at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 09:26:08 2009
From: the.masch at gmail.com (Mario Chacon)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:26:08 -0300
Subject: 2009-04-21 - Fedora Test Day - Minimal platform
In-Reply-To: <49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>
References: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com> 
	<49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <93d66b780904210226h75f28ffl9d6be2736abd8154@mail.gmail.com>

How can I install the AOS version?

Salu2...
masch...
Thanks...

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 6:01 AM, Ondrej Hudlicky <ohudlick at redhat.com>wrote:

> James Laska wrote, On 04/20/2009 11:03 PM:
>
>  Greetings testers,
>>
>> Calling all package gurus and dependency junkies!  The Fedora 11
>> MinimalPlatform feature [1] aims to provide a tiny installation package
>> set by identifying unwanted deps from @Core and related groups.  As
>> described in the feature page, the benefits to Fedora include:
>>
>>      * Security - lower the attack surface by installing only necessary
>>        packages
>>      * Performance - faster installation and less running services
>>      * Storage - installation is less than 500MB
>>
>> There will also be several new tools available to help navigate
>> dependencies, including rpmreaper and rpm2comps.
>> Come join #fedora-qa this Tuesday, April 21 2009 to help put an end to
>> deps creep.  Test cases and a Fedora live image will be available to aid
>> testing. Stay tuned for more details are available at
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-04-21_Minimal_Platform.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> James
>>
>> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MinimalPlatform
>>
>
>
> Join us today, we have lot of work to do :)
>
> Side goal of this event is also to open discussion and as an output improve
> set of best practices how to handle with dependencies and subpackages. This
> is partly defined in packaging guidelines, but just for -doc -static -devel.
> I might be beneficial to implement wider and stricter rules.
> Ideally if some rpmlint plugin can check whether the srpm is correctly
> divided into subpackages.
>
> --
> Ondrej
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net  Tue Apr 21 09:27:42 2009
From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:27:42 +0300
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090421092742.GB19497@victor.nirvana>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 09:02:09AM +0200, Roman Rakus wrote:
> Hi,
> There is a bug (#496780) requesting to use patchlevel of bash as part of  
> RPM version. So today bash-4.0-6.fc11.i586 would be  
> bash-4.0.16-6.fc11.i586. What do you think about it? Could it break  
> anything?
> RR
>

Since bash doesn't have any fancy provides try something like

for package in `repoquery --whatrequires bash`; do echo $package; repoquery -R $package|grep bash; done

to check what dependencies are pointing to bash's version. I think it
looks quite safe, but OTOH we're in a freeze with bash being an
important package, so it's better to change it for >= F12 or at the
very least as an update to 4.0.17 later in F11's maintenance timeline.
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net  Tue Apr 21 09:38:32 2009
From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:38:32 +0300
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <49ED8342.1070108@freenet.de>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com> <49ED8342.1070108@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20090421093832.GC19497@victor.nirvana>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:26:42AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Roman Rakus wrote:
>> Hi,
>> There is a bug (#496780) requesting to use patchlevel of bash as part 
>> of RPM version. So today bash-4.0-6.fc11.i586 would be  
>> bash-4.0.16-6.fc11.i586. What do you think about it?
> It's a bad idea.
>
> c.f. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageNamingGuidelines#Package_Version
>
> Rule of thumb: Try to let an rpm's version match with upstream's version  
> whenever possible, otherwise you're very likely to meet conflicts with  
> upstream's versioning.
>
>> Could it break anything? 
> Well, not actually break, but you (rsp. the Fedora package maintainer)  
> are not unlikely to hit NEVR issues with upstream.
>
> E.g. with your proposal you would be in trouble if upstream decides to  
> release 4.0.1 - You have to bump epoch: etc.

Upstream already uses the patchlevel in their versioning, e.g.

# bash --version
GNU bash, version 4.0.16(1)-release (x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu)
Copyright (C) 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later
<http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>

This is free software; you are free to change and redistribute it.
There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.

> My recommendation: Either ignore upstream's patch-level in an rpm's NEVR  
> and use your own NEVR scheme, or try to incorporate upstream's  
> "patch-levels" into an rpm's %release, if you "feel like it".
>
> I would not do so.

Note that there were a couple normal release tarballs like

ftp://ftp.cwru.edu/pub/bash/bash-3.0.16.tar.gz
ftp://ftp.cwru.edu/pub/bash/bash-3.2.48.tar.gz

It's a strange release policy, but upstream does seem to version with
three numbers, so using 4.0.17 in rpm's version field seems to make
sense.

(BTW it is not defining bash's version, but even wikipedia shows
bash's version to be 4.0.17: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bash)
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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From karsten at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 09:58:39 2009
From: karsten at redhat.com (Karsten Hopp)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:58:39 +0200
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <81487f820904201123v37be5765hd7011c2607b39c35@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>	<49EC37E9.1070206@fetzig.org>	<20090420195517.3d00a672@faldor.intranet>
	<81487f820904201123v37be5765hd7011c2607b39c35@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49ED98CF.8020203@redhat.com>

Am 20.04.2009 20:23, schrieb Iain Arnell:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Michael Schwendt<mschwendt at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> Emacs/XEmacs users can use  M-x rpm-add-change-log-entry  as provided by
>> rpmdevtools.
>
> vim users can use<LocalLeader>-c (without needing rpmdevtools - and
> come nowhere close to "accidentally" hitting ctrl-alt-del)
>

Some additional info on this...
I have this in my .vimrc:
let g:packager = "Karsten Hopp <karsten at redhat.com>"
let g:spec_chglog_release_info = 1

As vim figures out the nvr automatically, the usual steps are
- bump release
- edit whatever in the spec file
- <LocalLeader>-c
- enter changelog text

This gets you a valid changelog entry with the correct date and nvr


    Karsten


--
The main difference between vi and emacs is that someone who runs vi the
first time, is unable to quit it, while someone who runs emacs the first
time, is unable to quit it.



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Tue Apr 21 10:17:35 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:17:35 +0200
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <20090421093832.GC19497@victor.nirvana>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com> <49ED8342.1070108@freenet.de>
	<20090421093832.GC19497@victor.nirvana>
Message-ID: <49ED9D3F.9000703@freenet.de>

Axel Thimm wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:26:42AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> Roman Rakus wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> There is a bug (#496780) requesting to use patchlevel of bash as part 
>>> of RPM version. So today bash-4.0-6.fc11.i586 would be  
>>> bash-4.0.16-6.fc11.i586. What do you think about it?
>> It's a bad idea.
>>
>> c.f. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageNamingGuidelines#Package_Version
>>
>> Rule of thumb: Try to let an rpm's version match with upstream's version  
>> whenever possible, otherwise you're very likely to meet conflicts with  
>> upstream's versioning.
>>
>>> Could it break anything? 
>> Well, not actually break, but you (rsp. the Fedora package maintainer)  
>> are not unlikely to hit NEVR issues with upstream.
>>
>> E.g. with your proposal you would be in trouble if upstream decides to  
>> release 4.0.1 - You have to bump epoch: etc.
> 
> Upstream already uses the patchlevel in their versioning, e.g.

>> My recommendation: Either ignore upstream's patch-level in an rpm's NEVR  
>> and use your own NEVR scheme, or try to incorporate upstream's  
>> "patch-levels" into an rpm's %release, if you "feel like it".
>>
>> I would not do so.
> 
> Note that there were a couple normal release tarballs like
> 
> ftp://ftp.cwru.edu/pub/bash/bash-3.0.16.tar.gz
> ftp://ftp.cwru.edu/pub/bash/bash-3.2.48.tar.gz
> 
> It's a strange release policy,
ACK, ...

> but upstream does seem to version with
> three numbers, so using 4.0.17 in rpm's version field seems to make
> sense.
Well, in this case, it would be appropriate to contact upstream and to 
ask them why they don't release tarballs, rsp. about their plans on 
their next release's version number.

> (BTW it is not defining bash's version, but even wikipedia shows
> bash's version to be 4.0.17: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bash)
Wikipedia, ... ;-)

Ralf



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Tue Apr 21 10:31:44 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:31:44 +0200
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <49ED9D3F.9000703@freenet.de>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
	<49ED8342.1070108@freenet.de>	<20090421093832.GC19497@victor.nirvana>
	<49ED9D3F.9000703@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <49EDA090.60809@freenet.de>

Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Axel Thimm wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:26:42AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>> Roman Rakus wrote:

>> (BTW it is not defining bash's version, but even wikipedia shows
>> bash's version to be 4.0.17: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bash)
> Wikipedia, ... ;-)

FWIW: bash's home-page
http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/bashtop.html
in
http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/bashtop.html#TOCCurrentStatus
says
"The current version of bash is bash-4.0."

Ralf



From rjones at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 11:41:08 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:41:08 +0100
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090421114108.GA29973@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 03:07:40AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> (Yes, kde4-config is an ELF binary, not a script.)

This could be a barrier to cross-compilation.

Background (I'm sure Kevin knows this ...):

It's generally a good idea for *-config programs to be scripts,
because you need to run them during the build process, and that fails
if it's a native program and you're cross-compiling.  The exception is
pkg-config, since it can be configured to do the right thing by
setting some environment variables.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any
software inside the virtual machine.  Supports Linux and Windows.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-df/



From rrakus at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 11:56:22 2009
From: rrakus at redhat.com (Roman Rakus)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:56:22 +0200
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <49EDA090.60809@freenet.de>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>	<49ED8342.1070108@freenet.de>	<20090421093832.GC19497@victor.nirvana>	<49ED9D3F.9000703@freenet.de>
	<49EDA090.60809@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <49EDB466.2040801@redhat.com>

Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> Axel Thimm wrote:
>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:26:42AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>>> Roman Rakus wrote:
>
>>> (BTW it is not defining bash's version, but even wikipedia shows
>>> bash's version to be 4.0.17: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bash)
>> Wikipedia, ... ;-)
>
> FWIW: bash's home-page
> http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/bashtop.html
> in
> http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/bashtop.html#TOCCurrentStatus
> says
> "The current version of bash is bash-4.0."
>
> Ralf
>
The truth is that upstream versions bash in two number (4.0), but in 
some cases provides tarball with applied patches and uses three numbers. 
In fedora we use two numbered version and patch it.
What about this NEVR: bash-4.0-p16-6.fc11.i586 where p16 stands for 
patchlevel 16.
If not, I will close bug as notabug...
RR



From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net  Tue Apr 21 12:13:32 2009
From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:13:32 +0300
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <49EDB466.2040801@redhat.com>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com> <49ED8342.1070108@freenet.de>
	<20090421093832.GC19497@victor.nirvana>
	<49ED9D3F.9000703@freenet.de> <49EDA090.60809@freenet.de>
	<49EDB466.2040801@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090421121332.GA22577@victor.nirvana>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 01:56:22PM +0200, Roman Rakus wrote:
> What about this NEVR: bash-4.0-p16-6.fc11.i586 where p16 stands for  
> patchlevel 16.

You cannot have a hyphen in the version or the release tag, the above
is malformed.
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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From bpepple at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 21 12:22:01 2009
From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:22:01 -0400
Subject: Package Review Stats for the week ending April 19th, 2009
Message-ID: <1240316521.24147.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Top three FAS account holders who have completed reviewing "Package
review" components on bugzilla for the week ending April 19th, 2009
were Parag AN(????), Chris Weyl, and Jussi Lehtola.   Below is the
number of package reviews completed.

Parag AN(????) - 8
Chris Weyl - 7
Jussi Lehtola - 7
Orcan 'oget' Ogetbil - 5
Iain Arnell - 3
Michael Schwendt - 3
Robert Scheck - 3
Christoph Wickert - 2
Kalev Lember - 2
Mamoru Tasaka - 2
Marek Mahut - 2
Mattias Ellert - 2
Till Maas - 2
Dan Hor?k - 1
Daniel Berrange - 1
Gianluca Sforna - 1
Hans de Goede - 1
Jan Klepek - 1
Jason Tibbitts - 1
Lillian Angel - 1
Lubomir Rintel - 1
Matthias Saou - 1
Michal Nowak - 1
Peter Lemenkov - 1
Rex Dieter - 1
Simon Wesp - 1
Thomas Sailer - 1
Tom "spot" Callaway - 1

Review Requests: 60
Merge Reviews: 2
Total reviews modified: 63

Thanks,
/B
-- 
Brian Pepple <bpepple at fedoraproject.org>

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bpepple
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E
BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B  CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E
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From rrakus at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 12:23:08 2009
From: rrakus at redhat.com (Roman Rakus)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:23:08 +0200
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <20090421121332.GA22577@victor.nirvana>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
	<49ED8342.1070108@freenet.de>	<20090421093832.GC19497@victor.nirvana>	<49ED9D3F.9000703@freenet.de>
	<49EDA090.60809@freenet.de>	<49EDB466.2040801@redhat.com>
	<20090421121332.GA22577@victor.nirvana>
Message-ID: <49EDBAAC.3060207@redhat.com>

Axel Thimm wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 01:56:22PM +0200, Roman Rakus wrote:
>   
>> What about this NEVR: bash-4.0-p16-6.fc11.i586 where p16 stands for  
>> patchlevel 16.
>>     
>
> You cannot have a hyphen in the version or the release tag, the above
> is malformed.
>   
Ah, yes...
maybe as it is proposed in bugzilla: bash-4.0.16-6.fc11.i586
And in next patch level: e.g. bash-4.0.24-1.fc11.i586
RR



From thomas.moschny at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 12:27:41 2009
From: thomas.moschny at gmail.com (Thomas Moschny)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:27:41 +0200
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <49EDB466.2040801@redhat.com>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com> <49ED8342.1070108@freenet.de> 
	<20090421093832.GC19497@victor.nirvana> <49ED9D3F.9000703@freenet.de> 
	<49EDA090.60809@freenet.de> <49EDB466.2040801@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <a9d183c80904210527u175f7fffvdf4c2735ce9c4d66@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/21 Roman Rakus <rrakus at redhat.com>:
> The truth is that upstream versions bash in two number (4.0), but in some
> cases provides tarball with applied patches and uses three numbers. In
> fedora we use two numbered version and patch it.

So, you could (should?) use bash-4.0-31.p39%{?dist}, see
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/NamingGuidelines#Post-Release_packages.

-- 
Thomas Moschny <thomas.moschny at gmail.com>



From bnocera at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 12:50:05 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:50:05 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 23:29 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> So, the shiny new pulseaudio mixer setup in F11 took away my ability to
> tell the panel applet which channel to use. It seems to insist on
> messing with the master. I have a second computer hooked in to the line
> in, so it can share speakers with my main box. I had it set up so the
> master volume was set on maximum, and the panel volume thingy adjusted
> the PCM volume. This allowed me to adjust volumes separately, the
> secondary box stayed at a constant volume and the main box could be
> adjusted freely without affecting the secondary machine.
> 
> How do I get this behavior back?

_This_ behaviour, no. Any reasons why you don't use PulseAudio over the
network instead?

I'm afraid that your use of the volume control wasn't really something
we thought about, and I'm not sure that's a use case we're that
interested in catering for.

> (Someday I'll just get me a proper studio mixer. Sigh...)

Cheers



From pmatilai at laiskiainen.org  Tue Apr 21 13:19:04 2009
From: pmatilai at laiskiainen.org (Panu Matilainen)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:19:04 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <20090420213728.08eb4811@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<hz1vrqlhas.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1240029173.9867.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsc8qb$kf$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090420213728.08eb4811@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0904211616060.2478@gotcha.dreamhost.com>

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009, Kevin Fenzi wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:08:11 +0200
> Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> wrote:
>
>> Jesse Keating wrote:
>>> Also, it means that not all of our package set has the
>>> sha256 checksum, which is a checkbox item.
>>
>> Speaking of that, can RPM itself be built with SHA256 now that F11
>> Beta is out? IMHO it doesn't make sense to still support upgrades
>> (directly) from F11 Alpha.
>
> Yeah, I agree. Panu?

Just did this for rawhide. Personally I couldn't care much less what 
digests rpm package for a release X is using but if you want to break the 
freeze for this then sure I can switch F11 rpm to default digests too.

 	- Panu -



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 13:31:21 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:01:21 +0530
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904210631x12b39c63w5a0537f454676fe9@mail.gmail.com>

> Maintainer ? Package ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Co-maintainers
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> gemi ? ? ? ? erlang ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(none)

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496851

Happy hacking,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From bruno at wolff.to  Tue Apr 21 13:44:49 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:44:49 -0500
Subject: Finding file conflicts
In-Reply-To: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
References: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
Message-ID: <20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:13:24 +0300,
  Axel Thimm <Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net> wrote:
> 
> If I as a packager craft a package for Fedora, how can I check that
> this package's contents aren't accidentially conflicting with another
> package in Fedora? Is there some magic python script that would check
> a package against a whole repo?

There should also be checks run as a project over the whole set of
packages. I know of at least two conflicts currently in rawhide (down
from 3 assuming the new R packages got pushed out this morning) and
I think there is a another one that if I find again I'll make sure is
bugzilla'd. I have a lot of stuff installed, so I see more of these
than most people, but I am guessing there are others that I don't see.



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 21 13:53:30 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:53:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0904211616060.2478@gotcha.dreamhost.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240007755.9867.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<hz1vrqlhas.fsf@allele2.eebweb.arizona.edu>
	<1240029173.9867.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsc8qb$kf$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090420213728.08eb4811@ohm.scrye.com>
	<alpine.DEB.1.10.0904211616060.2478@gotcha.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904210952440.16334@localhost.localdomain>



On Tue, 21 Apr 2009, Panu Matilainen wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Apr 2009, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:08:11 +0200
>> Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> wrote:
>> 
>>> Jesse Keating wrote:
>>>> Also, it means that not all of our package set has the
>>>> sha256 checksum, which is a checkbox item.
>>> 
>>> Speaking of that, can RPM itself be built with SHA256 now that F11
>>> Beta is out? IMHO it doesn't make sense to still support upgrades
>>> (directly) from F11 Alpha.
>> 
>> Yeah, I agree. Panu?
>
> Just did this for rawhide. Personally I couldn't care much less what digests 
> rpm package for a release X is using but if you want to break the freeze for 
> this then sure I can switch F11 rpm to default digests too.

unless there is a compellingly good reason to do it - I'd say keep it as 
it is, now. so that:

1. people could, conceivably go from not-quite-current F10 to F11GA

2. change == breakage as a general rule.

-sv



From john5342 at googlemail.com  Tue Apr 21 14:20:26 2009
From: john5342 at googlemail.com (John5342)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:20:26 +0100
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/21 Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com>:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:04 +0100, John5342 wrote:
>> What i would be interested in though is some kind of standardised api
>> implemented in all the major bug trackers so other things can be
>> easily implemented on top of them such as semi automated up-streaming
>> of bugs. Making use of something like OpenID would reduce the multiple
>> login issue.
>
> +1 the Open Source world fixing the Single Sign-on problem would go a
> long way towards solving much irritation. I suppose it's a matter of
> getting everyone to support OpenID...

The good news with getting everyone to support openid is that most
people use some version of one of a limited number of bug tracker
systems such as bugzilla or trac. A quick google shows there is
already some work being done on making bugzilla support openid. If a
few more trackers work on it then we will be well on our way towards
convincing individual projects to use it.

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary
and those who don't...



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 14:20:25 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:20:25 -0500
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0904210631x12b39c63w5a0537f454676fe9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904210631x12b39c63w5a0537f454676fe9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904210720o306cd288t2017fadf47627c6f@mail.gmail.com>

http://fpaste.org/paste/9713

I've looked through the output and this is with my patched Makefile.in
and I really have no clue as to why the resulting debuginfo package
has no sources

SRPM:  http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/shed-1.15-2.src.rpm
Spec:    http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/shed.spec

Any help would be appreciated.

-Adam

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Debarshi Ray <debarshi.ray at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Maintainer ? Package ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Co-maintainers
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> gemi ? ? ? ? erlang ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(none)
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496851
>
> Happy hacking,
> Debarshi
> --
> One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
> imaginary part.
> ? ?-- Andrew Koenig
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 14:32:21 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:32:21 -0600
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904210720o306cd288t2017fadf47627c6f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904210631x12b39c63w5a0537f454676fe9@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904210720o306cd288t2017fadf47627c6f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904210732q4467eb5fucc1aecd0cf405a9a@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 8:20 AM, Adam Miller <maxamillion at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://fpaste.org/paste/9713
>
> I've looked through the output and this is with my patched Makefile.in
> and I really have no clue as to why the resulting debuginfo package
> has no sources
>
> SRPM: ?http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/shed-1.15-2.src.rpm
> Spec: ? ?http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/shed.spec
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> -Adam

The CFLAGS you specified aren't being used.  Look at lines 76, 77, and
80.  There's no "-g" anywhere on those lines.
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 14:37:07 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:37:07 -0600
Subject: Rawhide: No module named gtk
In-Reply-To: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>
References: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904210737v3c32780bh460329488c78ca68@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
> I installed Rawhide today and when I went to launch system-config-network
> it's saying "Import Error: No module named gtk". ?Is there a path problem?
> ?I did a 'yum whatprovides gtk' but it returned No packages. ?I've rarely
> installed Rawhide, so maybe I'm missing something here.
>
> ????
>
> Regards,
> Gerry

Do you have pygtk2 installed?
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 14:38:26 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 07:38:26 -0700
Subject: Proposal: Single GPG key per Fedora release (starting with 11)
In-Reply-To: <49ED789D.60602@redhat.com>
References: <1240269441.3101.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49ED789D.60602@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240324706.3101.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 09:41 +0200, Gerd Hoffmann wrote:
> What is the plan for rawhide?
> 
> Would be great if packages don't need to be (re-)signed for (test) 
> releases.  So I could ask jidgo to scan the local rawhide mirror for 
> packages when composing a beta iso.

Maybe with F12 we can start auto-signing packages for rawhide with the
next release's key.  We're just getting a signing server deployed that
will help us with manual signing, but it hasn't been made to automate
yet.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From iarnell at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 14:42:36 2009
From: iarnell at gmail.com (Iain Arnell)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:42:36 +0200
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <200904202145.23108.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<20090420195517.3d00a672@faldor.intranet>
	<81487f820904201123v37be5765hd7011c2607b39c35@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904202145.23108.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <81487f820904210742r6556983bv58acb3326298d4d1@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Ville Skytt? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> wrote:
> What rpmdevtools does for *Emacs users is that it makes opening a new
> $foo.spec automatically use the corresponding rpmdevtools spec template for
> $foo as emitted by rpmdev-newspec, and adjusts a few more or less cosmetic
> variables. ?If there's a way to do something similar with vim (which currently
> appears to be using always the same template shipped in vim-common regardless
> of $foo) or other editors, patches are welcome in Bugzilla or
> fedorahosted.org/rpmdevtools

would probably want to be a patch against vim rather than rpmdevtools
since that's where the rest of the spec stuff is at the minute.
Something like this maybe?

Index: vimrc
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvs/pkgs/rpms/vim/devel/vimrc,v
retrieving revision 1.20
diff -u -r1.20 vimrc
--- vimrc	3 Jun 2008 14:34:32 -0000	1.20
+++ vimrc	21 Apr 2009 14:32:53 -0000
@@ -25,7 +25,11 @@
   " don't write swapfile on most commonly used directories for NFS
mounts or USB sticks
   autocmd BufNewFile,BufReadPre /media/*,/mnt/* set
directory=~/tmp,/var/tmp,/tmp
   " start with spec file template
-  autocmd BufNewFile *.spec 0r /usr/share/vim/vimfiles/template.spec
+  if executable("rpmdev-newspec")
+    autocmd BufNewFile *.spec exe "rpmdev-newspec -o - ".bufname("%")
+  else
+    autocmd BufNewFile *.spec 0r /usr/share/vim/vimfiles/template.spec
+  endif
   augroup END
 endif



-- 
Iain.



From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 14:43:21 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 07:43:21 -0700
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <49EDBAAC.3060207@redhat.com>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com> <49ED8342.1070108@freenet.de>
	<20090421093832.GC19497@victor.nirvana>	<49ED9D3F.9000703@freenet.de>
	<49EDA090.60809@freenet.de>	<49EDB466.2040801@redhat.com>
	<20090421121332.GA22577@victor.nirvana> <49EDBAAC.3060207@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240325001.3101.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 14:23 +0200, Roman Rakus wrote:
> Ah, yes...
> maybe as it is proposed in bugzilla: bash-4.0.16-6.fc11.i586
> And in next patch level: e.g. bash-4.0.24-1.fc11.i586

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/NamingGuidelines#Post-Release_packages

You would want to do bash-4.0-6.16.fc11
followed by          bash-4.0-7.24.fc11

Basically following  bash-4.0-X.PatchLevel%{?dist}

The X is in int that keeps on increasing as you do more releases, the
patch level is your posttag.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From rrakus at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 14:47:19 2009
From: rrakus at redhat.com (Roman Rakus)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:47:19 +0200
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <1240325001.3101.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
	<49ED8342.1070108@freenet.de>	<20090421093832.GC19497@victor.nirvana>	<49ED9D3F.9000703@freenet.de>	<49EDA090.60809@freenet.de>	<49EDB466.2040801@redhat.com>	<20090421121332.GA22577@victor.nirvana>
	<49EDBAAC.3060207@redhat.com>
	<1240325001.3101.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EDDC77.7060905@redhat.com>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 14:23 +0200, Roman Rakus wrote:
>   
>> Ah, yes...
>> maybe as it is proposed in bugzilla: bash-4.0.16-6.fc11.i586
>> And in next patch level: e.g. bash-4.0.24-1.fc11.i586
>>     
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/NamingGuidelines#Post-Release_packages
>
> You would want to do bash-4.0-6.16.fc11
> followed by          bash-4.0-7.24.fc11
>
> Basically following  bash-4.0-X.PatchLevel%{?dist}
>
> The X is in int that keeps on increasing as you do more releases, the
> patch level is your posttag.
>
>   
Thank you all guys.
RR



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 14:50:44 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:20:44 +0530
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904210750j10a6d011na2aed21548e310b6@mail.gmail.com>

> Maintainer ? Package ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Co-maintainers
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> dchen ? ? ? ?libchewing ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?i18n-team

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496886

Happy hacking,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 15:17:21 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:17:21 +0100
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <81487f820904210742r6556983bv58acb3326298d4d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<200904202145.23108.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<81487f820904210742r6556983bv58acb3326298d4d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904211617.21678.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 21 April 2009 15:42:36 Iain Arnell wrote:

> -  autocmd BufNewFile *.spec 0r /usr/share/vim/vimfiles/template.spec
> +  if executable("rpmdev-newspec")
> +    autocmd BufNewFile *.spec exe "rpmdev-newspec -o - ".bufname("%")
> +  else
> +    autocmd BufNewFile *.spec 0r /usr/share/vim/vimfiles/template.spec

Please don't make vim do yet another bunch of stat() calls at startup to look 
for this </whine>



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 15:22:58 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:52:58 +0530
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904210822x7cb083d6k2ce408c17ecf1c72@mail.gmail.com>

> Maintainer ? Package ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Co-maintainers
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> limb ? ? ? ? wesnoth ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? wtogami

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496897

Happy hacking,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Tue Apr 21 15:24:15 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?iso-8859-15?q?Skytt=E4?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:24:15 +0300
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <20090421121332.GA22577@victor.nirvana>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com> <49EDB466.2040801@redhat.com>
	<20090421121332.GA22577@victor.nirvana>
Message-ID: <200904211824.16068.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Axel Thimm wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 01:56:22PM +0200, Roman Rakus wrote:
> > What about this NEVR: bash-4.0-p16-6.fc11.i586 where p16 stands for
> > patchlevel 16.
>
> You cannot have a hyphen in the version or the release tag, the above
> is malformed.

But without the hyphen it would work for the expected cases, although probably 
not be packaging guidelines "compliant":

$ rpmdev-vercmp 4.0-1 4.0p16-1
0:4.0p16-1 is newer

$ rpmdev-vercmp 4.0p17-1 4.0p16-1
0:4.0p17-1 is newer

$ rpmdev-vercmp 4.0p17-1 4.0.1-1
0:4.0.1-1 is newer

$ rpmdev-vercmp 4.0p17-1 4.01-1
0:4.01-1 is newer

Cases like 4.0a that should be treated as newer than 4.0p* would require 
either use of Epochs or doing something strange like inventing zeros:

$ rpmdev-vercmp 4.0p17-1 4.0a-1
0:4.0p17-1 is newer

$ rpmdev-vercmp 4.0p17-1 4.0.0a-1
0:4.0.0a-1 is newer

$ rpmdev-vercmp 4.0p17-1 4.0.0-1.a
0:4.0.0-1.a is newer



From greno at verizon.net  Tue Apr 21 15:53:56 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:53:56 -0400
Subject: Rawhide: No module named gtk
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904210737v3c32780bh460329488c78ca68@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210737v3c32780bh460329488c78ca68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EDEC14.90705@verizon.net>

Jerry James wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>   
>> I installed Rawhide today and when I went to launch system-config-network
>> it's saying "Import Error: No module named gtk".  Is there a path problem?
>>  I did a 'yum whatprovides gtk' but it returned No packages.  I've rarely
>> installed Rawhide, so maybe I'm missing something here.
>>
>> ????
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gerry
>>     
>
> Do you have pygtk2 installed?
>   
Yes, I've checked against an F10 machine and they both have:
pygtk2
pygtk2-libglade

Yet, the rawhide machine refuses to launch any of the 'system-config-*' 
modules.  They all complain about "Import Error: No module named gtk".

Regards,
Gerry



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 15:56:28 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:56:28 -0500
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904210732q4467eb5fucc1aecd0cf405a9a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904210631x12b39c63w5a0537f454676fe9@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904210720o306cd288t2017fadf47627c6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<870180fe0904210732q4467eb5fucc1aecd0cf405a9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904210856y459cc77fscb02829c429077fc@mail.gmail.com>

How do I go about forcing those CFLAGS to be used? I was under the
impression that if they are specified then they are used, the makefile
appears to me that it supports the CFLAGS correctly, but I could be
wrong.

-Adam

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Jerry James <loganjerry at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 8:20 AM, Adam Miller <maxamillion at gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://fpaste.org/paste/9713
>>
>> I've looked through the output and this is with my patched Makefile.in
>> and I really have no clue as to why the resulting debuginfo package
>> has no sources
>>
>> SRPM: ?http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/shed-1.15-2.src.rpm
>> Spec: ? ?http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/shed.spec
>>
>> Any help would be appreciated.
>>
>> -Adam
>
> The CFLAGS you specified aren't being used. ?Look at lines 76, 77, and
> 80. ?There's no "-g" anywhere on those lines.
> --
> Jerry James
> http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 16:10:25 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:10:25 -0600
Subject: Rawhide: No module named gtk
In-Reply-To: <49EDEC14.90705@verizon.net>
References: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210737v3c32780bh460329488c78ca68@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDEC14.90705@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904210910g4861a80bx48053dd35a116e7e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
> Yes, I've checked against an F10 machine and they both have:
> pygtk2
> pygtk2-libglade
>
> Yet, the rawhide machine refuses to launch any of the 'system-config-*'
> modules. ?They all complain about "Import Error: No module named gtk".
>
> Regards,
> Gerry

What architecture is your machine?  What arch is the pygtk2 package?

If you run "python" at the command line, and then type "import sys"
followed by "print sys.path" at the prompt, what does it print?
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 16:15:38 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:15:38 -0600
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904210856y459cc77fscb02829c429077fc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904210631x12b39c63w5a0537f454676fe9@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904210720o306cd288t2017fadf47627c6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<870180fe0904210732q4467eb5fucc1aecd0cf405a9a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904210856y459cc77fscb02829c429077fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904210915x3cd867c3gb47968734a598e56@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Adam Miller <maxamillion at gmail.com> wrote:
> How do I go about forcing those CFLAGS to be used? I was under the
> impression that if they are specified then they are used, the makefile
> appears to me that it supports the CFLAGS correctly, but I could be
> wrong.
>
> -Adam

The problem is configure.in, which blows away anything you specified
and rebuilds a set of CFLAGS from scratch.  Try this in your %prep
section:

sed -i -e "s/CFLAGS=\"-Wall\"/CFLAGS=\"${RPM_OPT_FLAGS}\"/" configure
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 16:20:28 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:20:28 -0500
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904210915x3cd867c3gb47968734a598e56@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904210631x12b39c63w5a0537f454676fe9@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904210720o306cd288t2017fadf47627c6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<870180fe0904210732q4467eb5fucc1aecd0cf405a9a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904210856y459cc77fscb02829c429077fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<870180fe0904210915x3cd867c3gb47968734a598e56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904210920o20c88c5do4968382624624ebd@mail.gmail.com>

I actually just got some help in #fedora-devel, thanks for the idea
though. I've patched the configure script and works, i will push the
update and then start working on my other packages.

-Adam

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jerry James <loganjerry at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Adam Miller <maxamillion at gmail.com> wrote:
>> How do I go about forcing those CFLAGS to be used? I was under the
>> impression that if they are specified then they are used, the makefile
>> appears to me that it supports the CFLAGS correctly, but I could be
>> wrong.
>>
>> -Adam
>
> The problem is configure.in, which blows away anything you specified
> and rebuilds a set of CFLAGS from scratch. ?Try this in your %prep
> section:
>
> sed -i -e "s/CFLAGS=\"-Wall\"/CFLAGS=\"${RPM_OPT_FLAGS}\"/" configure
> --
> Jerry James
> http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Tue Apr 21 16:25:40 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?utf-8?q?Skytt=C3=A4?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:25:40 +0300
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <200904211617.21678.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<81487f820904210742r6556983bv58acb3326298d4d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904211617.21678.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904211925.40380.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Bill Crawford wrote:
> On Tuesday 21 April 2009 15:42:36 Iain Arnell wrote:
> > -  autocmd BufNewFile *.spec 0r /usr/share/vim/vimfiles/template.spec
> > +  if executable("rpmdev-newspec")
> > +    autocmd BufNewFile *.spec exe "rpmdev-newspec -o - ".bufname("%")
> > +  else
> > +    autocmd BufNewFile *.spec 0r /usr/share/vim/vimfiles/template.spec
>
> Please don't make vim do yet another bunch of stat() calls at startup to
> look for this </whine>

The above doesn't seem to be working for me ("E492: Not an editor command: 
rpmdev-newspec -o - foo.spec") but if someone can tweak vim to simply always 
use the stdout of (pseudocode):

rpmdev-newspec -o - bufname("%") 2>/dev/null || cat 
/usr/share/vim/vimfiles/template.spec

... for new *.spec I think that'd accomplish it without adding any startup 
burden.

                                                                                                                              



From greno at verizon.net  Tue Apr 21 16:27:42 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:27:42 -0400
Subject: Rawhide: No module named gtk
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904210910g4861a80bx48053dd35a116e7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210737v3c32780bh460329488c78ca68@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDEC14.90705@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210910g4861a80bx48053dd35a116e7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EDF3FE.9030800@verizon.net>

Jerry James wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>   
>> Yes, I've checked against an F10 machine and they both have:
>> pygtk2
>> pygtk2-libglade
>>
>> Yet, the rawhide machine refuses to launch any of the 'system-config-*'
>> modules.  They all complain about "Import Error: No module named gtk".
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gerry
>>     
>
> What architecture is your machine?  What arch is the pygtk2 package?
>
> If you run "python" at the command line, and then type "import sys"
> followed by "print sys.path" at the prompt, what does it print?
>   

 From the Rawhide machine:

[root at localhost tmp]# uname -a
Linux localhost.localdomain 2.6.29.1-100.fc11.x86_64 #1 SMP Sat Apr 18 
18:16:41 EDT 2009 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[root at localhost tmp]# cat /etc/rpm/platform
x86_64-redhat-linux
[root at localhost tmp]# rpm --eval '%{_arch}'
x86_64
[root at localhost tmp]# yum list pygtk2
Loaded plugins: dellsysidplugin2, fastestmirror, refresh-packagekit
Loading mirror speeds from cached hostfile
 * rawhide: mirror.hiwaay.net
Installed Packages
pygtk2.x86_64                     2.14.1-1.fc11                     
installed
[root at localhost tmp]#

# python
Python 2.6 (r26:66714, Mar 17 2009, 11:44:14)
[GCC 4.4.0 20090313 (Red Hat 4.4.0-0.26)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> import sys
 >>> print sys.path
['', '/usr/lib64/python26.zip', '/usr/lib64/python2.6', 
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-tk', 
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-old', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-dynload', 
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages', 
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/Numeric', 
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/PIL', 
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gst-0.10', 
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/scim-0.1', 
'/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages', 
'/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0']
 >>>


Regards,
Gerry



From muepsj at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 16:37:23 2009
From: muepsj at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Joonas_Saraj=C3=A4rvi?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:37:23 +0300
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <66ec675b0904210937h20b4bb94lba2b67d99fa7050b@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/21 Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com>:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 23:29 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
>> So, the shiny new pulseaudio mixer setup in F11 took away my ability to
>> tell the panel applet which channel to use. It seems to insist on
>> messing with the master. I have a second computer hooked in to the line
>> in, so it can share speakers with my main box. I had it set up so the
>> master volume was set on maximum, and the panel volume thingy adjusted
>> the PCM volume. This allowed me to adjust volumes separately, the
>> secondary box stayed at a constant volume and the main box could be
>> adjusted freely without affecting the secondary machine.
>>
>> How do I get this behavior back?
>
> _This_ behaviour, no. Any reasons why you don't use PulseAudio over the
> network instead?
>
> I'm afraid that your use of the volume control wasn't really something
> we thought about, and I'm not sure that's a use case we're that
> interested in catering for.
>
>> (Someday I'll just get me a proper studio mixer. Sigh...)
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

Couldn't he also just use Pulseaudio to route the incoming sound from
his line input to the output, also allowing him to adjust the volume
separately and all?

This could be an option, if for example there is no fast network
between the computers.

-- 
Joonas Saraj?rvi
muepsj at gmail.com



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 16:37:39 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:37:39 -0600
Subject: Rawhide: No module named gtk
In-Reply-To: <49EDF3FE.9030800@verizon.net>
References: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210737v3c32780bh460329488c78ca68@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDEC14.90705@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210910g4861a80bx48053dd35a116e7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDF3FE.9030800@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904210937t372372edt620362863cc9708a@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
> # python
> Python 2.6 (r26:66714, Mar 17 2009, 11:44:14)
> [GCC 4.4.0 20090313 (Red Hat 4.4.0-0.26)] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> import sys
>>>> print sys.path
> ['', '/usr/lib64/python26.zip', '/usr/lib64/python2.6',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-tk',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-old', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-dynload',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/Numeric',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/PIL',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gst-0.10',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/scim-0.1',
> '/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages',
> '/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0']
>>>>
>
>
> Regards,
> Gerry

I get this on my Rawhide machine:

['', '/usr/lib64/python26.zip', '/usr/lib64/python2.6',
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib64/python-2.6/lib-tk',
'/usr/lib64/python-2.6/lib-old', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-dynload',
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages',
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/Numeric',
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/PIL',
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/gst-0.10',
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0',
'/usr/lib/python-2.6/site-packages']

Notice that yours has /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0, while
mine has /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0.  That's why I
asked about the arches, just in case you had an i586 pygtk2 on an
x86_64 platform.  So what does "rpm -qf
/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0" tell you?  Do you have a
/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0 directory?
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Tue Apr 21 16:44:36 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?iso-8859-1?q?Skytt=E4?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:44:36 +0300
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0904210822x7cb083d6k2ce408c17ecf1c72@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904210822x7cb083d6k2ce408c17ecf1c72@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904211944.37010.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Debarshi Ray wrote:

> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496897
[and others]

Thanks for helping out with these, but out of curiosity, what's the reason for 
asking people to request F-11 freeze overrides for these fixes?  If compiler 
security features enabled by stuff in $RPM_OPT_FLAGS are not used it could be 
argued to be a potential security issue, is that why?



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 17:24:41 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:54:41 +0530
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904211944.37010.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904210822x7cb083d6k2ce408c17ecf1c72@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904211944.37010.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904211024g585b118i23187a24d8787b07@mail.gmail.com>

> but out of curiosity, what's the reason for
> asking people to request F-11 freeze overrides for these fixes?

Because without them the debuginfos are pretty useless. So if we don't
override the freeze and release them as zero-day updates, then, as far
as I understand, a user who wants to use the debuginfo will have to
pull in the updated package and the updated debuginfo, instead of just
the debuginfo.

Other than that, the changes are pretty trivial. So why not get them
in and have a polished F11 GA instead of burdening the average Joe
user who likes to tell PK to "download all updates"? Not everyone has
a nice broadband connection, you know. :-)

> ?If compiler
> security features enabled by stuff in $RPM_OPT_FLAGS are not used it could be
> argued to be a potential security issue, is that why?

Yes, that is another reason, but to me having a polished GA looks more
important.

Happy hacking,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 17:48:10 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:48:10 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <20090421114108.GA29973@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090421114108.GA29973@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <1240336090.30902.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 12:41 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 03:07:40AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > (Yes, kde4-config is an ELF binary, not a script.)
> 
> This could be a barrier to cross-compilation.
> 
> Background (I'm sure Kevin knows this ...):
> 
> It's generally a good idea for *-config programs to be scripts,
> because you need to run them during the build process, and that fails
> if it's a native program and you're cross-compiling.  The exception is
> pkg-config, since it can be configured to do the right thing by
> setting some environment variables.

... Because pkg-config is an engine that reads platform independent
data. Much like a script interpreter running a script. :P
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From greno at verizon.net  Tue Apr 21 17:48:55 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:48:55 -0400
Subject: Rawhide: No module named gtk
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904210937t372372edt620362863cc9708a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210737v3c32780bh460329488c78ca68@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDEC14.90705@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210910g4861a80bx48053dd35a116e7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDF3FE.9030800@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210937t372372edt620362863cc9708a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EE0707.4040609@verizon.net>

Jerry James wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>   
>> # python
>> Python 2.6 (r26:66714, Mar 17 2009, 11:44:14)
>> [GCC 4.4.0 20090313 (Red Hat 4.4.0-0.26)] on linux2
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>     
>>>>> import sys
>>>>> print sys.path
>>>>>           
>> ['', '/usr/lib64/python26.zip', '/usr/lib64/python2.6',
>> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-tk',
>> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-old', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-dynload',
>> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages',
>> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/Numeric',
>> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/PIL',
>> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gst-0.10',
>> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/scim-0.1',
>> '/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages',
>> '/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0']
>>     
>> Regards,
>> Gerry
>>     
>
> I get this on my Rawhide machine:
>
> ['', '/usr/lib64/python26.zip', '/usr/lib64/python2.6',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib64/python-2.6/lib-tk',
> '/usr/lib64/python-2.6/lib-old', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-dynload',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/Numeric',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/PIL',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/gst-0.10',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0',
> '/usr/lib/python-2.6/site-packages']
>
> Notice that yours has /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0, while
> mine has /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0.  That's why I
> asked about the arches, just in case you had an i586 pygtk2 on an
> x86_64 platform.  So what does "rpm -qf
> /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0" tell you?  Do you have a
> /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0 directory?
>   
[root at localhost tmp]# rpm -qf /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0/
pygobject2-2.16.1-3.fc11.i586
vte-0.20.1-1.fc11.i586
[root at localhost tmp]# rpm -qf /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0/
vte-0.20.1-1.fc11.x86_64
pygtk2-2.14.1-1.fc11.x86_64


Regards,
Gerry



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 17:54:20 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:54:20 -0600
Subject: Rawhide: No module named gtk
In-Reply-To: <49EE0707.4040609@verizon.net>
References: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210737v3c32780bh460329488c78ca68@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDEC14.90705@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210910g4861a80bx48053dd35a116e7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDF3FE.9030800@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210937t372372edt620362863cc9708a@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE0707.4040609@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904211054s3ef1faacufc7e29587ac6974b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
> [root at localhost tmp]# rpm -qf /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0/
> pygobject2-2.16.1-3.fc11.i586
> vte-0.20.1-1.fc11.i586
> [root at localhost tmp]# rpm -qf /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0/
> vte-0.20.1-1.fc11.x86_64
> pygtk2-2.14.1-1.fc11.x86_64
>
>
> Regards,
> Gerry

There's your problem.  You need the x86_64 version of pygobject2, but
you have the i586 version.  So it looks like pygtk2.x86_64 needs to
Require: pygobject2.x86_64, not just pygobject2.  Since you are the
suffering victim, do you want to file the bug? :-)
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From greno at verizon.net  Tue Apr 21 17:56:59 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:56:59 -0400
Subject: Rawhide: No module named gtk
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904211054s3ef1faacufc7e29587ac6974b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210737v3c32780bh460329488c78ca68@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDEC14.90705@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210910g4861a80bx48053dd35a116e7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDF3FE.9030800@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210937t372372edt620362863cc9708a@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE0707.4040609@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904211054s3ef1faacufc7e29587ac6974b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EE08EB.6010701@verizon.net>

Jerry James wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>   
>> [root at localhost tmp]# rpm -qf /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0/
>> pygobject2-2.16.1-3.fc11.i586
>> vte-0.20.1-1.fc11.i586
>> [root at localhost tmp]# rpm -qf /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0/
>> vte-0.20.1-1.fc11.x86_64
>> pygtk2-2.14.1-1.fc11.x86_64
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gerry
>>     
>
> There's your problem.  You need the x86_64 version of pygobject2, but
> you have the i586 version.  So it looks like pygtk2.x86_64 needs to
> Require: pygobject2.x86_64, not just pygobject2.  Since you are the
> suffering victim, do you want to file the bug? :-)
>   
Sure.  Thanks for tracking this down.

Regards,
Gerry



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 18:02:50 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:02:50 -0500
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240336971.30902.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 09:02 +0200, Roman Rakus wrote:
> Hi,
> There is a bug (#496780) requesting to use patchlevel of bash as part of 
> RPM version. So today bash-4.0-6.fc11.i586 would be 
> bash-4.0.16-6.fc11.i586. What do you think about it? Could it break 
> anything?
> RR

General rule of thumb is follow what's in the tarball filename if
possible. And the patchlevel isn't in it.

But putting the patchlevel in somewhere isn't a bad idea. I'd go with
something like this:

bash-4.0-1.pl16
bash-4.0-2.pl17
bash-4.0-3.pl18

... That is, follow the guidelines for a non-numeric post release:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/NamingGuidelines#Package_Version

(Even though it's technically numeric...)
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 18:06:21 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:06:21 -0700
Subject: Rawhide: No module named gtk
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904210937t372372edt620362863cc9708a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210737v3c32780bh460329488c78ca68@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDEC14.90705@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210910g4861a80bx48053dd35a116e7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDF3FE.9030800@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210937t372372edt620362863cc9708a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240337181.14173.677.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 10:37 -0600, Jerry James wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
> > # python
> > Python 2.6 (r26:66714, Mar 17 2009, 11:44:14)
> > [GCC 4.4.0 20090313 (Red Hat 4.4.0-0.26)] on linux2
> > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>>> import sys
> >>>> print sys.path
> > ['', '/usr/lib64/python26.zip', '/usr/lib64/python2.6',
> > '/usr/lib64/python2.6/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-tk',
> > '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-old', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-dynload',
> > '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages',
> > '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/Numeric',
> > '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/PIL',
> > '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gst-0.10',
> > '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/scim-0.1',
> > '/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages',
> > '/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0']
> >>>>
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Gerry
> 
> I get this on my Rawhide machine:
> 
> ['', '/usr/lib64/python26.zip', '/usr/lib64/python2.6',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib64/python-2.6/lib-tk',
> '/usr/lib64/python-2.6/lib-old', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-dynload',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/Numeric',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/PIL',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/gst-0.10',
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0',
> '/usr/lib/python-2.6/site-packages']
> 
> Notice that yours has /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0, while
> mine has /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0.  That's why I
> asked about the arches, just in case you had an i586 pygtk2 on an
> x86_64 platform.  So what does "rpm -qf
> /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0" tell you?  Do you have a
> /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/gtk-2.0 directory?
> -- 
> Jerry James
> http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/


Um. Why don't we just go the easy way, and ask him to do:

* run python at a command line
* run 'import gtk'

and see what happens? That usually gives you an error message that tells
you pretty much what's going on.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 18:10:36 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:10:36 -0600
Subject: Rawhide: No module named gtk
In-Reply-To: <1240337181.14173.677.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49ED7570.8020905@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210737v3c32780bh460329488c78ca68@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDEC14.90705@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210910g4861a80bx48053dd35a116e7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EDF3FE.9030800@verizon.net>
	<870180fe0904210937t372372edt620362863cc9708a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240337181.14173.677.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904211110u5226db45r89907c71d2fa9ae2@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> Um. Why don't we just go the easy way, and ask him to do:
>
> * run python at a command line
> * run 'import gtk'
>
> and see what happens? That usually gives you an error message that tells
> you pretty much what's going on.
> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
> http://www.happyassassin.net

Not really.  Watch this:

$ python
Python 2.5.2 (r252:60911, Sep 30 2008, 15:42:03)
[GCC 4.3.2 20080917 (Red Hat 4.3.2-4)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import nosuchmodule
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
ImportError: No module named nosuchmodule

... which is the error he reported in his first message.  We had to
find out why python thought there was no such module (and we succeeded
in doing so).
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 18:13:35 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:13:35 -0500
Subject: 2009-04-21 - Fedora Test Day - Minimal platform
In-Reply-To: <49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>
References: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>
	<49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240337615.30902.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 11:01 +0200, Ondrej Hudlicky wrote:
> Side goal of this event is also to open discussion and as an output 
> improve set of best practices how to handle with dependencies and 
> subpackages. This is partly defined in packaging guidelines, but just 
> for -doc -static -devel. I might be beneficial to implement wider and 
> stricter rules.
> Ideally if some rpmlint plugin can check whether the srpm is correctly 
> divided into subpackages.

I don't suppose someone wants to set up an automated thingy that does a
daily rawhide install of the "minimal platform", and graphs the size
over time. And maybe auto-nags the list or something if it grows over a
threshold...
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From s-t-rhbugzilla at wwwdotorg.org  Tue Apr 21 18:13:03 2009
From: s-t-rhbugzilla at wwwdotorg.org (Stephen Warren)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:13:03 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240337584.1400.TMDA@tmda.severn.wwwdotorg.org>

On Tue, April 21, 2009 6:50 am, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 23:29 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
>> So, the shiny new pulseaudio mixer setup in F11 took away my ability to
>> tell the panel applet which channel to use. It seems to insist on
>> messing with the master. I have a second computer hooked in to the line
>> in, so it can share speakers with my main box. I had it set up so the
>> master volume was set on maximum, and the panel volume thingy adjusted
>> the PCM volume. This allowed me to adjust volumes separately, the
>> secondary box stayed at a constant volume and the main box could be
>> adjusted freely without affecting the secondary machine.
>>
>> How do I get this behavior back?
>
> _This_ behaviour, no. Any reasons why you don't use PulseAudio over the
> network instead?
>
> I'm afraid that your use of the volume control wasn't really something
> we thought about, and I'm not sure that's a use case we're that
> interested in catering for.

I think I also rely on this use-case (i.e. telling the mixer which
channel(s) to control).

I forget the exact names, but my laptop has separate volume controls for
the built-in bass and non-bass speakers. In older Fedora releases, this
"just worked". In F9 (I think), the mixer (and volume buttons on the front
of the laptop) started to control only the non-bass speaker volume, so
that the bass volume was always maxed out, which wasn't usable. I had to
configure the mixer to control both the bass and non-bass mixer channels
together (and I think I had to hack the alsa configuration to actually
create the bass mixer channel at all, or something like that)

So, is this all handled in a better (i.e. automatic) fashion now, or is
the lack of channel selection going to be another regression for me?



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 18:22:58 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:22:58 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 13:50 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 23:29 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > So, the shiny new pulseaudio mixer setup in F11 took away my ability to
> > tell the panel applet which channel to use. It seems to insist on
> > messing with the master. I have a second computer hooked in to the line
> > in, so it can share speakers with my main box. I had it set up so the
> > master volume was set on maximum, and the panel volume thingy adjusted
> > the PCM volume. This allowed me to adjust volumes separately, the
> > secondary box stayed at a constant volume and the main box could be
> > adjusted freely without affecting the secondary machine.
> > 
> > How do I get this behavior back?
> 
> _This_ behaviour, no. Any reasons why you don't use PulseAudio over the
> network instead?

Because this is simpler. And the secondary box is running Windows XP.

If anything is there some way I can just have an option to get the old
damn panel applet back?

Seems like yet another case of ripping out a stable solution and
replacing it with a new, shiny and immature one that fails to provide
similar functionality. Can I at least get a secret gconf key to do what
I want? :P
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From mschwendt at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 18:23:59 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:23:59 +0200
Subject: Finding file conflicts
In-Reply-To: <20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>
References: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
	<20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>
Message-ID: <20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>

On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:44:49 -0500, Bruno wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:13:24 +0300,
>   Axel Thimm wrote:
> > 
> > If I as a packager craft a package for Fedora, how can I check that
> > this package's contents aren't accidentially conflicting with another
> > package in Fedora? Is there some magic python script that would check
> > a package against a whole repo?
> 
> There should also be checks run as a project over the whole set of
> packages. I know of at least two conflicts currently in rawhide (down
> from 3 assuming the new R packages got pushed out this morning) and
> I think there is a another one that if I find again I'll make sure is
> bugzilla'd. I have a lot of stuff installed, so I see more of these
> than most people, but I am guessing there are others that I don't see.

There are more. Search bugzilla for "conflicts". I've had the filing of bz
tickets semi-automated till I lost the work-in-progress ticket tracking
script which I had stored on a non-backuped-machine. At least the
following conflicts appear to be new compared with my last log:

  R-Matrix  conflicts with  R-core
  R-Matrix-devel  conflict with  R-core
  astronomy-backgrounds  conflicts with  *-backgrounds*  (in bugzilla)
  globus-common-progs  conflicts with  grid-packaging-tools  (in bugzilla)

The script I use to check a set of repositories is old and unfinished:
http://mschwendt.fedorapeople.org/confcheck-remote-split2.py

Working on such scripts and enhancing them is only fun if the filed
tickets are dealt with and are not ignored.



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 18:32:48 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:32:48 -0500
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <3170f42f0904211024g585b118i23187a24d8787b07@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904210822x7cb083d6k2ce408c17ecf1c72@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904211944.37010.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904211024g585b118i23187a24d8787b07@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904211132v45b0d5c4r4a1823930c2ce74b@mail.gmail.com>

What steps are needed to get the package into the GA instead of as a
zero day update?

-Adam

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Debarshi Ray <debarshi.ray at gmail.com> wrote:
>> but out of curiosity, what's the reason for
>> asking people to request F-11 freeze overrides for these fixes?
>
> Because without them the debuginfos are pretty useless. So if we don't
> override the freeze and release them as zero-day updates, then, as far
> as I understand, a user who wants to use the debuginfo will have to
> pull in the updated package and the updated debuginfo, instead of just
> the debuginfo.
>
> Other than that, the changes are pretty trivial. So why not get them
> in and have a polished F11 GA instead of burdening the average Joe
> user who likes to tell PK to "download all updates"? Not everyone has
> a nice broadband connection, you know. :-)
>
>> ?If compiler
>> security features enabled by stuff in $RPM_OPT_FLAGS are not used it could be
>> argued to be a potential security issue, is that why?
>
> Yes, that is another reason, but to me having a polished GA looks more
> important.
>
> Happy hacking,
> Debarshi
> --
> One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
> imaginary part.
> ? ?-- Andrew Koenig
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From debarshi.ray at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 18:37:26 2009
From: debarshi.ray at gmail.com (Debarshi Ray)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:07:26 +0530
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904211132v45b0d5c4r4a1823930c2ce74b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904210822x7cb083d6k2ce408c17ecf1c72@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904211944.37010.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904211024g585b118i23187a24d8787b07@mail.gmail.com>
	<f12087800904211132v45b0d5c4r4a1823930c2ce74b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3170f42f0904211137o3cb76d7bi501afc4c116b9499@mail.gmail.com>

> What steps are needed to get the package into the GA instead of as a
> zero day update?

Please request a freeze override for Fedora 11 according to
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/FinalFreezePolicy

Happy hacking,
Debarshi
-- 
One reason that life is complex is that it has a real part and an
imaginary part.
    -- Andrew Koenig



From markg85 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 18:45:24 2009
From: markg85 at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:45:24 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:20 PM, John5342 <john5342 at googlemail.com> wrote:
> 2009/4/21 Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com>:
>> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:04 +0100, John5342 wrote:
>>> What i would be interested in though is some kind of standardised api
>>> implemented in all the major bug trackers so other things can be
>>> easily implemented on top of them such as semi automated up-streaming
>>> of bugs. Making use of something like OpenID would reduce the multiple
>>> login issue.
>>
>> +1 the Open Source world fixing the Single Sign-on problem would go a
>> long way towards solving much irritation. I suppose it's a matter of
>> getting everyone to support OpenID...
>
> The good news with getting everyone to support openid is that most
> people use some version of one of a limited number of bug tracker
> systems such as bugzilla or trac. A quick google shows there is
> already some work being done on making bugzilla support openid. If a
> few more trackers work on it then we will be well on our way towards
> convincing individual projects to use it.

OpenID is indeed a solution to one of the problems (multiple bug
reporting accounts). But that would only work if:
1. All bug trackers support OpenID
2. all currently using a bug tracker update to a version that uses OpenID.

>From the reply's so far i see that fedora (or the ones that did
respond) would like the idea but have a hard time believing that
something this massive can be done.
So. do you guys think i can start trying to contact the top 10
distributions and see if i can get them all together on one place to
talk about it (just an irc channel somewhere) or would that be a waste
of time to do?

Thanx so far,
Mark.



From jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Apr 21 18:46:24 2009
From: jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk (James Gallagher)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:46:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
Message-ID: <543249.56452.qm@web26707.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>




--- On Tue, 21/4/09, Jonathan Dieter <jdieter at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Jonathan Dieter <jdieter at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
> To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Date: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009, 7:56 AM
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 23:40 -0400,
> Warren Togami wrote:
> > On 04/20/2009 10:15 PM, James Gallagher wrote:
> > >
> > > After all, I think some of the large language
> packages would have a
> > > pretty small delta between 6 month release
> cycles.
> > >
> > 
> > Note that nearly every package is rebuilt between
> releases.
> > 
> > For this to make any difference at all, it would have
> to delta not only 
> > the bits of the RPM packages, but delta the
> uncompressed RPMS against 
> > each other.
> > 
> > Does any tool do this today across an entire ISO
> image?
> 
> There is makedeltaiso in the deltarpm package.? I
> haven't tested it much
> as I don't use the DVD iso images to install.
> 
> Jonathan
> 

So there is! Doesn't work on F9 -> F10 but on F10 -> F11 beta DVD (x86_64)
I get a delta iso image of 2.2GB, about 53% less than the full iso. Hmm, not as good as I was expecting, probably not worth making a fuss about unless we could get <1GB.

Are there any plans to optimise this tool or use it for future releases?

James


      



From jamatos at fc.up.pt  Tue Apr 21 18:51:14 2009
From: jamatos at fc.up.pt (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jos=E9_Matos?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:51:14 +0100
Subject: Finding file conflicts
In-Reply-To: <20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>
References: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
	<20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>
	<20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <200904211951.14357.jamatos@fc.up.pt>

On Tuesday 21 April 2009 19:23:59 Michael Schwendt wrote:
>   R-Matrix  conflicts with  R-core
>   R-Matrix-devel  conflict with  R-core

That was fixed yesterday but it is not yet on rawhide (it will be probably 
today).

-- 
Jos? Ab?lio



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 21 18:56:44 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:26:44 +0530
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EE16EC.5020903@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/22/2009 12:15 AM, Mark wrote:

> So. do you guys think i can start trying to contact the top 10
> distributions and see if i can get them all together on one place to
> talk about it (just an irc channel somewhere) or would that be a waste
> of time to do?

No harm in asking. Post to

http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/distributions

Rahul



From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net  Tue Apr 21 18:53:47 2009
From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:53:47 +0300
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <1240336971.30902.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
	<1240336971.30902.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090421185347.GA29618@victor.nirvana>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 01:02:50PM -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 09:02 +0200, Roman Rakus wrote:
> > There is a bug (#496780) requesting to use patchlevel of bash as part of 
> > RPM version. So today bash-4.0-6.fc11.i586 would be 
> > bash-4.0.16-6.fc11.i586. What do you think about it? Could it break 
> > anything?
> > RR
> 
> General rule of thumb is follow what's in the tarball filename if
> possible. And the patchlevel isn't in it.

The release process model of bash is "lazy", they only release a full
tarball if the diffs are large enough (or the accumulated sum of
them).

> But putting the patchlevel in somewhere isn't a bad idea. I'd go with
> something like this:
> 
> bash-4.0-1.pl16
> bash-4.0-2.pl17
> bash-4.0-3.pl18

So what would you do when upstream does consider releasing
bash-4.0.25.tar.gz, then again just uses patchlevels for say up to
bash-4.0.33.tar.gz, then goes bash-4.2.tar.gz and the story begins
anew?

Technically following the guidelines to the letter we would get

bash-4.0-3.pl18
...
bash-4.0-4.pl24
bash-4.0.25-1
bash-4.0-1.pl26 (epoch bump!)
...
bash-4.0-6.pl32
bash-4.0.33-1
bash-4.0-1.pl34 (again epoch bump!)

Guidelines and laws can be interpreted in many ways, but even in court
the intention of the law is important - the post-release versioning
for *NON-NUMERIC* patchlevels, which BTW is here not the case, bash
upstream never adds a "p" or any other letter) serves for keeping sane
upgrade paths w/o introducing new epochs and if we were to follow it
to the letter we would indeed achive the opposite.

The official patches by upstream do intenionally increase the version
of the source and bash --version reflects that. So upstream's
intention is that this source conglomeration is bash-4.0.17, not
bash-4.0 with some patches.

I'd say either add the patchlevel to the version like the bugzilla
requests it (because that's were it belongs, the
stuff-it-as-as-suffix-to-the-release-tag workaround is just a
... workaround), or leave it as it is.

Whatever the outcome, for F11's release I wouldn't touch bash
anymore. If there is something to fix do it as an update, or for F12.
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 18:56:57 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:56:57 -0700
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240340217.14173.690.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 20:45 +0200, Mark wrote:

> OpenID is indeed a solution to one of the problems (multiple bug
> reporting accounts). But that would only work if:
> 1. All bug trackers support OpenID
> 2. all currently using a bug tracker update to a version that uses OpenID.
> 
> >From the reply's so far i see that fedora (or the ones that did
> respond) would like the idea but have a hard time believing that
> something this massive can be done.

So you have a hard time believing something as massive as switching to
OpenID can be done, but you reckon everyone switching to the One True
Bug Tracker should be perfectly achievable? :)

> So. do you guys think i can start trying to contact the top 10
> distributions and see if i can get them all together on one place to
> talk about it (just an irc channel somewhere) or would that be a waste
> of time to do?

It can't hurt, but it's not really that easy - there's not one single
person you could talk to at each distribution who'd be able to take that
decision. It'd be quite hard to get a decision making quorum for each of
the top ten distros (especially Debian...) in a channel at once.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net  Tue Apr 21 19:00:01 2009
From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:00:01 +0300
Subject: Finding file conflicts
In-Reply-To: <20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>
References: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
	<20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>
	<20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <20090421190001.GB29618@victor.nirvana>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 08:23:59PM +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:44:49 -0500, Bruno wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:13:24 +0300,
> >   Axel Thimm wrote:
> > > 
> > > If I as a packager craft a package for Fedora, how can I check that
> > > this package's contents aren't accidentially conflicting with another
> > > package in Fedora? Is there some magic python script that would check
> > > a package against a whole repo?
> > 
> > There should also be checks run as a project over the whole set of
> > packages. I know of at least two conflicts currently in rawhide (down
> > from 3 assuming the new R packages got pushed out this morning) and
> > I think there is a another one that if I find again I'll make sure is
> > bugzilla'd. I have a lot of stuff installed, so I see more of these
> > than most people, but I am guessing there are others that I don't see.
> 
> There are more. Search bugzilla for "conflicts". I've had the filing of bz
> tickets semi-automated till I lost the work-in-progress ticket tracking
> script which I had stored on a non-backuped-machine. At least the
> following conflicts appear to be new compared with my last log:
> 
>   R-Matrix  conflicts with  R-core
>   R-Matrix-devel  conflict with  R-core
>   astronomy-backgrounds  conflicts with  *-backgrounds*  (in bugzilla)
>   globus-common-progs  conflicts with  grid-packaging-tools  (in bugzilla)
> 
> The script I use to check a set of repositories is old and unfinished:
> http://mschwendt.fedorapeople.org/confcheck-remote-split2.py

What is unfinished in this script? Can one use it against a repo like
Bruno writes, or against a package and a repo like I suggested?

There are a couple of useful scripts floating around, maybe they
should get into one upstream source? Is perhaps yum-utils the proper
place to submit them?

> Working on such scripts and enhancing them is only fun if the filed
> tickets are dealt with and are not ignored.

I think that such a script could even become part of koji/bodhi
automation and alert packagers/builders upon creating a buggy
package. Sometimes even a package can evolve into conflicting with
another if for example new exectuables are added. A koji check would
do wonders to keep this off the repos.
(Of course performance is an issue, so if the scripts takes a while it
can's be chained in, yet, but it would be a start)
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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From john5342 at googlemail.com  Tue Apr 21 19:01:55 2009
From: john5342 at googlemail.com (John5342)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:01:55 +0100
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com> 
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6dc6523c0904211201h9de6a95r73685a1b7660419d@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/21 Mark <markg85 at gmail.com>:
> OpenID is indeed a solution to one of the problems (multiple bug
> reporting accounts). But that would only work if:
> 1. All bug trackers support OpenID
> 2. all currently using a bug tracker update to a version that uses OpenID.

That shouldn't be an issue since it doesn't have to be an over night
change. The great thing about this kind of solution is that it can be
evolutionary.

> From the reply's so far i see that fedora (or the ones that did
> respond) would like the idea but have a hard time believing that
> something this massive can be done.

I have no doubt that something this massive *can* be done. We only
have to look at some of the huge web services out there such as google
to know its possible. I just have my doubts that a single bug tracker
can suit everybodies needs plus if getting people to use openid is a
big deal then moving everything to a central bug tracker is going to
be impossible. Others have also pointed out issues such as the sheer
size of things making it less useful and also the difficulty of
getting people to move so much.

> So. do you guys think i can start trying to contact the top 10
> distributions and see if i can get them all together on one place to
> talk about it (just an irc channel somewhere) or would that be a waste
> of time to do?

Can't hurt. Think from an idealistic point of view its great. Just
can't see it happening in real life for the reasons above and a load
more issues besides that i won't go into at the moment. Nothing wrong
with trying though. Good luck!

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary
and those who don't...



From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 19:05:27 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:05:27 -0700
Subject: Finding file conflicts
In-Reply-To: <20090421190001.GB29618@victor.nirvana>
References: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
	<20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>
	<20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>
	<20090421190001.GB29618@victor.nirvana>
Message-ID: <1240340727.3101.52.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 22:00 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote:
> I think that such a script could even become part of koji/bodhi
> automation and alert packagers/builders upon creating a buggy
> package. Sometimes even a package can evolve into conflicting with
> another if for example new exectuables are added. A koji check would
> do wonders to keep this off the repos.
> (Of course performance is an issue, so if the scripts takes a while it
> can's be chained in, yet, but it would be a start)

This, or something like it will be added to the AutomatedQA effort.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From walters at verbum.org  Tue Apr 21 19:19:00 2009
From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:19:00 -0400
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <faa16b610904211219v4b48d402p96b18e9d10af5f9@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was just reading the latest distrowatch weekly and there was an
> interesting article posted there about a centralized bug tracking
> system for all of foss

Attempts to change the entire world simultaneously almost always fail,
if they ever even get past the discussion stage.  There are many
examples; to take just one, think of SELinux, where we ended up with a
"targeted" policy, saying we'll concentrate on this specific set of
services

If you want a more tractable, incremental problem to take on that
would get us closer to what you want, consolidating project hosting
would be a good start. For example, I'm very much against developers
hosting projects on e.g. some old Trac instance on their personal
vserver, for many reasons, among them that if at some later time they
get bored or whatever, the server goes down and with it a lot of
useful data.

If we could consolidate hosting down to just say Sourceforge, Google
Code, Launchpad, Fedora hosted, etc. we'd have a much more manageable
set of bug trackers (and project metadata APIs) to work with, and
making some sort of bug tracking aggregator becomes a much more
manageable problem.



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 19:24:35 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:24:35 +0200
Subject: Finding file conflicts
In-Reply-To: <20090421190001.GB29618@victor.nirvana>
References: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
	<20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>
	<20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>
	<20090421190001.GB29618@victor.nirvana>
Message-ID: <20090421212435.6bc8f0e2@faldor.intranet>

On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:00:01 +0300, Axel wrote:

> > The script I use to check a set of repositories is old and unfinished:
> > http://mschwendt.fedorapeople.org/confcheck-remote-split2.py
> 
> What is unfinished in this script?

Some TODO areas/comments in it.
Limited/dumb multilib support - with a currently hardcoded flag.
Obsoletes/Conflicts tag checks only without in-range comparison of EVRs.
File mode conflicts only as warnings in output.
No command-line option yet to make it reuse data calculated in pass 1 of 2.
Some hardcoded Yum API changes, so it currently runs on Fedora >= 8
and perhaps EL5, but probably not EL4.

> Can one use it against a repo like
> Bruno writes,

Yes. By default it uses /etc/yum.conf and the system's list of compatible
archs, but one can point it to a custom yum.conf.

I usually run it with option "-r rawhide" to check Rawhide and
add a couple of additional -r options for RPM Fusion.

> or against a package and a repo like I suggested?

A local package would need to be put into a local repo, because
the script can check repos only.

> (Of course performance is an issue, so if the scripts takes a while it
> can's be chained in, yet, but it would be a start)

It takes approx. 1G of RAM, half a GB of disk space, and several minutes
to run it. ;o)



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 19:25:44 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:25:44 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 20:45 +0200, Mark wrote:
> OpenID is indeed a solution to one of the problems (multiple bug
> reporting accounts). But that would only work if:
> 1. All bug trackers support OpenID
> 2. all currently using a bug tracker update to a version that uses OpenID.

Which is quite conceivably doable. 

Interoperation, not unification.

> >From the reply's so far i see that fedora (or the ones that did
> respond) would like the idea but have a hard time believing that
> something this massive can be done.
> So. do you guys think i can start trying to contact the top 10
> distributions and see if i can get them all together on one place to
> talk about it (just an irc channel somewhere) or would that be a waste
> of time to do?

I don't know that you have the necessary interpersonal skills to be the
front man on this...

I'd concentrate on just getting Fedora OpenID enabled. Make us the
vanguard of progress we're supposed to be. Once we've got it all worked
out, we upstream all our patches, and start lobbying other projects to
use them...

What we need:

A universal Fedora account for all Fedora services. We mostly have this
for Fedora developers but I don't know where we are on having end-user
accounts. The FAS-Bugzilla integration could be better. All bugzilla
accounts should also be FAS accounts, and thus be able to be used as
OpenID providers because...

... Then we make FAS an OpenID provider. Lobby everyone else to OpenID
enable their bug trackers. Fedora users and developers can then easily
push things to upstream bug trackers using their Fedora accounts.

Likewise, make FAS an OpenID consumer, so that upstream developers can
use our bugzilla using their preferred (possibly their own) OpenID
provider.

Once the user ID problem is sorted out, then it becomes easier to
integrate bug trackers in other ways. Such as direct bug transport
across bugzillas...

Hrm, I'm not the first to think about this:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit/OpenId

If you use Gmail, AIM, livejournal etc you already have an OpenID:

http://openid.net/get/
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From bochecha at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 21 19:29:14 2009
From: bochecha at fedoraproject.org (Mathieu Bridon (bochecha))
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:29:14 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>

> ... Then we make FAS an OpenID provider.

http://<your fas account>.id.fedoraproject.org

It's already working fine :)


----------

Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)



From mcepl at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 19:24:13 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:24:13 +0200
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904181612.54581.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<3170f42f0904210822x7cb083d6k2ce408c17ecf1c72@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904211944.37010.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <t3j1c6-i83.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-21, 16:44 GMT, Ville Skytt? wrote:
> On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Debarshi Ray wrote:
>
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496897
> [and others]

It would help more if there was a tracking bug which all these 
individual bugs would be blocking.

Matej



From walters at verbum.org  Tue Apr 21 19:32:42 2009
From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:32:42 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <faa16b610904211232s697c85c2ia1c51bc3fa68d379@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:22 AM, Richard W.M. Jones <rjones at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 06:43:10PM -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> This is a dilemma we have in Fedora. I have no idea why someone would
>> want to keep the devel subpackages of the same package with different
>> archs installed.
>
> Because one wants to compile with 'gcc -m32'. ?This is very useful
> when you have virtualization.
>
> Unfortunately the more I look at multilib, the more totally broken it
> seems to be.

multilib isn't broken, rather it has a limited scope.  It solves the
problems it was intended to well enough.  What we really need is an
explicit enumeration of the kinds of issues multilib is addressing,
and those that are outside the scope.

The things that are outside the scope include general software compilation.



From a.badger at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 19:35:45 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:35:45 -0700
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EE2011.1080805@gmail.com>

Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote:
>> ... Then we make FAS an OpenID provider.
> 
> http://<your fas account>.id.fedoraproject.org
> 
> It's already working fine :)
> 
Working, though not "fine" :-).  Lots of bugs to work out.  See the
discussion page for:

  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OpenID

for a list of websites that are known working and broken with our
current implementation.

People who want to help out are welcome!

-Toshio

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From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 19:45:51 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:45:51 -0500
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <20090421185347.GA29618@victor.nirvana>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
	<1240336971.30902.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090421185347.GA29618@victor.nirvana>
Message-ID: <1240343151.30902.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 21:53 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 01:02:50PM -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > But putting the patchlevel in somewhere isn't a bad idea. I'd go with
> > something like this:
> > 
> > bash-4.0-1.pl16
> > bash-4.0-2.pl17
> > bash-4.0-3.pl18
> 
> So what would you do when upstream does consider releasing
> bash-4.0.25.tar.gz, then again just uses patchlevels for say up to
> bash-4.0.33.tar.gz, then goes bash-4.2.tar.gz and the story begins
> anew?

Your description sounds like this to me:

bash-4.0.25-1
bash-4.0.25-2.pl1
bash-4.0.25-3.pl2
bash-4.0.33-1
bash-4.2-1
bash-4.2-2.pl1

etc.

> Technically following the guidelines to the letter we would get
> 
> bash-4.0-3.pl18
> ...
> bash-4.0-4.pl24
> bash-4.0.25-1
> bash-4.0-1.pl26 (epoch bump!)
> ...
> bash-4.0-6.pl32
> bash-4.0.33-1
> bash-4.0-1.pl34 (again epoch bump!)

Is that what you were trying to describe? If they do this, upstream
should be slapped with a herring for using completely senseless release
versioning.

How is a *human* even supposed to know that 4.0 patchlevel 26 is newer
than 4.0.25?

In this hypothetical insanity, it would be *upstreams* fault for us
having to use epochs, not our fault and not a fault in our guidelines.

> The official patches by upstream do intenionally increase the version
> of the source and bash --version reflects that. So upstream's
> intention is that this source conglomeration is bash-4.0.17, not
> bash-4.0 with some patches.

Interesting.

No, upstream's intention is not clear. The tarball versioning and
internal versioning conflict This is a case where upstream is being
unclear and we simply need to communicate with them to sort things out.
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From iarnell at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 20:05:00 2009
From: iarnell at gmail.com (Iain Arnell)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:05:00 +0200
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <200904211925.40380.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<81487f820904210742r6556983bv58acb3326298d4d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904211617.21678.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<200904211925.40380.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <81487f820904211305y4f82e4bdtb1624abed6717aac@mail.gmail.com>

> On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Bill Crawford wrote:
>> Please don't make vim do yet another bunch of stat() calls at startup to
>> look for this </whine>

for me running "vim perl-test.spec", before = 271 stat() calls; after = 279.

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Ville Skytt? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> wrote:
> The above doesn't seem to be working for me ("E492: Not an editor command:
> rpmdev-newspec -o - foo.spec")

my bad - serves me right for testing with both /etc/vimrc and ~/.vimrc
and not diffing the right one.  Should, of course, be

>> > +    autocmd BufNewFile *.spec exe "%!rpmdev-newspec -o - ".bufname("%")

-- 
Iain.



From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Tue Apr 21 20:05:01 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:05:01 -0400
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
Message-ID: <49EE26ED.4060200@bwh.harvard.edu>

 > So there is! Doesn't work on F9 -> F10 but on F10 -> F11 beta DVD 
(x86_64)
 > I get a delta iso image of 2.2GB, about 53% less than the full iso.
 > Hmm, not as good as I was expecting, probably not worth making a fuss 
 > about unless we could get <1GB.

A lot of people would probably be very happy with cutting the download 
in half.  On a 768 Kbit/s connection it would reduce download time from 
about 12 hours to six.  If the tool doesn't take too long to do the 
reconstruction after downloading, and if it's reliable (so one doesn't 
have to download 2GB only to find out it doesn't work, then download the 
full 4GB anyway) the deltaiso should be available as a download option.
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From tgl at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 20:11:51 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:11:51 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib 
In-Reply-To: <1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> writes:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:07 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Of course this breaks horribly if the binary is something like kde4-config
>> (you'll want kde4-config --libsuffix and the like to return different
>> results for 32-bit or 64-bit builds), and we don't have a good solution for
>> that. (Yes, kde4-config is an ELF binary, not a script.)

> Because KDE always has to be different and inevitably manages to Do It
> Wrong.

So, I suppose you can tell me how to do it better?  mysql-config and
similar programs have the same issue, so I'm awaiting your wisdom
with bated breath.

Actually the only reason that mysql-config is a binary and not a script
is that there doesn't seem to be any other good way for it to know which
word-width it's supposed to return results for.  This is one of the main
problems with trying to do software builds in a multilib environment.

			regards, tom lane



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 20:15:05 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:15:05 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240344905.30902.106.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 21:29 +0200, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote:
> > ... Then we make FAS an OpenID provider.
> 
> http://<your fas account>.id.fedoraproject.org
> 
> It's already working fine :)

Oooh. Now if only the UI didn't suck. Having to enter awkward URLs
everywhere kind of defeats the entire idea of seamless ease of use.

Also, I should be able to merge my Google ID/Fedora ID/whatever with my
existing 8 year old Livejournal account. Instead I seem to get an
entirely new account. :P

Google has it right guys, the standard sucks:

http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/google-doesnt-use-openid/

We just need a standard way of discovering what OpenID providers the
user is using, instead of hardwiring Google/Yahoo/whatever. This is
probably best accomplished by interaction with the browser, which will
need an account manager... (which most already have a "remember
passwords" system already...)
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From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 20:19:19 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:19:19 +0100
Subject: 2009-04-21 - Fedora Test Day - Minimal platform
In-Reply-To: <49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>
References: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>
	<49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904211319y71f54927g96edb1f16673aacb@mail.gmail.com>

>> Greetings testers,
>>
>> Calling all package gurus and dependency junkies! ?The Fedora 11
>> MinimalPlatform feature [1] aims to provide a tiny installation package
>> set by identifying unwanted deps from @Core and related groups. ?As
>> described in the feature page, the benefits to Fedora include:
>>
>> ? ? ?* Security - lower the attack surface by installing only necessary
>> ? ? ? ?packages
>> ? ? ?* Performance - faster installation and less running services
>> ? ? ?* Storage - installation is less than 500MB
>>
>> There will also be several new tools available to help navigate
>> dependencies, including rpmreaper and rpm2comps.
>> Come join #fedora-qa this Tuesday, April 21 2009 to help put an end to
>> deps creep. ?Test cases and a Fedora live image will be available to aid
>> testing. Stay tuned for more details are available at
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-04-21_Minimal_Platform.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> James
>>
>> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MinimalPlatform
>
>
> Join us today, we have lot of work to do :)
>
> Side goal of this event is also to open discussion and as an output improve
> set of best practices how to handle with dependencies and subpackages. This
> is partly defined in packaging guidelines, but just for -doc -static -devel.
> I might be beneficial to implement wider and stricter rules.
> Ideally if some rpmlint plugin can check whether the srpm is correctly
> divided into subpackages.

This is great news. I started filing tickets to reduce/split out deps
when I started looking at doing a "Fedora Mini" spin for netbooks and
the like to be able to install a usable desktop env in 2Gb (the
smallest size of the SSD on some netbooks) but have since got
sidetracked helping out the OLPC project with similar sort of stuff.

Is there also a tracker bug to link reported bugs against?

Peter



From john5342 at googlemail.com  Tue Apr 21 20:29:11 2009
From: john5342 at googlemail.com (John5342)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:29:11 +0100
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240344905.30902.106.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com> 
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240344905.30902.106.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <6dc6523c0904211329lef0f43ese6b2b2856d208cb1@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/21 Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com>:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 21:29 +0200, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote:
>> > ... Then we make FAS an OpenID provider.
>>
>> http://<your fas account>.id.fedoraproject.org
>>
>> It's already working fine :)
>
> Oooh. Now if only the UI didn't suck. Having to enter awkward URLs
> everywhere kind of defeats the entire idea of seamless ease of use.
>
> Also, I should be able to merge my Google ID/Fedora ID/whatever with my
> existing 8 year old Livejournal account. Instead I seem to get an
> entirely new account. :P
>
> Google has it right guys, the standard sucks:
>
> http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/google-doesnt-use-openid/
>
> We just need a standard way of discovering what OpenID providers the
> user is using, instead of hardwiring Google/Yahoo/whatever. This is
> probably best accomplished by interaction with the browser, which will
> need an account manager... (which most already have a "remember
> passwords" system already...)

Maybe i have completely misunderstood how openid works but from what i
gather the whole purpose of using a url as the id is that the url is
contacted to do the authentication. Therefore we already have a way of
discovering what openid provider the user is using (its embedded in
the way it works) and that means no hardwiring needed.

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary
and those who don't...



From markg85 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 20:37:15 2009
From: markg85 at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:37:15 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <6e24a8e80904211337q7d312ad3p99e3b5e4619e4681@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 20:45 +0200, Mark wrote:
>> OpenID is indeed a solution to one of the problems (multiple bug
>> reporting accounts). But that would only work if:
>> 1. All bug trackers support OpenID
>> 2. all currently using a bug tracker update to a version that uses OpenID.
>
> Which is quite conceivably doable.
>
> Interoperation, not unification.
>
>> >From the reply's so far i see that fedora (or the ones that did
>> respond) would like the idea but have a hard time believing that
>> something this massive can be done.
>> So. do you guys think i can start trying to contact the top 10
>> distributions and see if i can get them all together on one place to
>> talk about it (just an irc channel somewhere) or would that be a waste
>> of time to do?
>
> I don't know that you have the necessary interpersonal skills to be the
> front man on this...

Well, i have the will to do it but by no means the "interpersonal
skills" for it.
I'm just someone that wants to give it a try ^_^

And a little different question.
I had the intention to invite the top 10 distributions on one place to
decide on something in this matter but now i'm wondering if that idea
alone is right.
Lets think about the following party's that are left out with that
idea but most certainly have a LOT to do with it:

- Google (with the "bugzilla" inside google code)
- Sourceforge (with there bug tracking tool)
- Bugzilla itself
- Mantis
- Trac (bug tracking part)
- Launchpad (bug tracking part)
- and probably a few others.

And that brings the total amount of people in on irc channel to talk
about the idea (me included) to 10 (top 10 distros) + 6 (projects with
bug trackers) + 1 (me) = 17 ppl.
That's a lot of ppl to "reform" bug tracking to one place.

I'm also playing a bit with the idea that there is one central bug
tracking system with ALL (ideally) foss projects in it and that place
is the main and upstream place(that's the general idea you all know by
now). Then allow people to somehow hook into that bug tracking system
(see it as a remote (mysql) database) which they can backup and use on
there own site with there own bugzilla. All bugs reported on there
site along with all changes will be (in the background) posted or
updated on the big foss bug tracker. That way you keep your local
bugzilla's but all data is stored on one place (even though the
participating parties can back there own section up if they want) and
can all be accessed through one site (lets say openBugTracker.net or
fossBugTracker.net). That would be the best way to go at it i think.
The only thing that all existing bug trackers have to do if it's going
to be done in this idea is update virtually every part of the bug
tracker they use to let it use an external database... just that
nothing more ^_^

O and please stick to this subject. OpenID is very interesting but
really not the subject.



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 20:58:02 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:58:02 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904211337q7d312ad3p99e3b5e4619e4681@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6e24a8e80904211337q7d312ad3p99e3b5e4619e4681@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240347482.30902.118.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 22:37 +0200, Mark wrote:
> I'm also playing a bit with the idea that there is one central bug
> tracking system with ALL (ideally) foss projects in it and that place
> is the main and upstream place(that's the general idea you all know by
> now). 

No. This is not desirable. Forget it, it's never going to happen. Clear
your mind. Think git, not CVS. Think distributed bug tracking.

Interoperation, not consolidation.

And there's the basic fact that no one wants a single point of failure.
What if the One Bug Tracker To Rule Them All goes down? The entire Open
Source world screeches to a halt? Who is everyone going to trust to run
this thing? What if the OBTTRTA gets hacked?

The beauty of Open Source is that people are *not* forced to work
together.
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From john5342 at googlemail.com  Tue Apr 21 21:00:37 2009
From: john5342 at googlemail.com (John5342)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:00:37 +0100
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904211337q7d312ad3p99e3b5e4619e4681@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com> 
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6e24a8e80904211337q7d312ad3p99e3b5e4619e4681@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6dc6523c0904211400y79e793c4r6ed790eaaf162842@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/21 Mark <markg85 at gmail.com>:
> [...]
> And that brings the total amount of people in on irc channel to talk
> about the idea (me included) to 10 (top 10 distros) + 6 (projects with
> bug trackers) + 1 (me) = 17 ppl.
> That's a lot of ppl to "reform" bug tracking to one place.

You're forgetting that for most of the groups you mention they are
exactly that. They are groups and considering in each case it would
effect virtually the whole group it would be impossible isolate a
single individual from each group who is qualified to make a decision
on behalf of the entire group. If you can get 1000s of people into a
single irc channel and get a coherent conversation going then i would
love to see it.

> I'm also playing a bit with the idea that there is one central bug
> tracking system with ALL (ideally) foss projects in it and that place
> is the main and upstream place(that's the general idea you all know by
> now). Then allow people to somehow hook into that bug tracking system
> (see it as a remote (mysql) database) which they can backup and use on
> there own site with there own bugzilla. All bugs reported on there
> site along with all changes will be (in the background) posted or
> updated on the big foss bug tracker. That way you keep your local
> bugzilla's but all data is stored on one place (even though the
> participating parties can back there own section up if they want) and
> can all be accessed through one site (lets say openBugTracker.net or
> fossBugTracker.net). That would be the best way to go at it i think.
> The only thing that all existing bug trackers have to do if it's going
> to be done in this idea is update virtually every part of the bug
> tracker they use to let it use an external database... just that
> nothing more ^_^
>
> O and please stick to this subject. OpenID is very interesting but
> really not the subject.

OpenID may not be the main subject but honestly it seems the only
realistic option at this point. It is something that is realistic and
feasible. It stands a real chance of finding support across the wide
group of projects and organizations you are talking about. It provides
a significant improvement to one of the larger issues you mentioned
and in the long run it provides a foundation and stepping stone for an
evolutionary change to the single bug tracker you are looking for.

If you want to go straight for the complete goal in one go then i will
shut up about OpenID by all means but if you want a novel on why the
whole job in one go will almost certainly result in failure then let
me know and i will provide.

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary
and those who don't...



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 21 21:04:25 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:04:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090421 changes
Message-ID: <20090421210426.ADEE21F81FA@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Tue Apr 21 06:15:04 UTC 2009

Removed package R-Matrix
Removed package nautilus-cd-burner
Updated Packages:

PackageKit-0.4.6-4.fc11
-----------------------
* Sun Apr 19 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 0.4.6-4
- Backport 2 patches from upstream to make Presto work better with PK.


R-2.9.0-2.fc11
--------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 2.9.0-2
- properly Provide/Obsolete R-Matrix


brasero-2.26.1-2.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 2.26.1-2
- Obsoletes nautilus-cd-burner


celt-0.5.2-2.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.5.2-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


dmraid-1.0.0.rc15-7.fc11
------------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Hans de Goede <hdegoede at redhat.com> - 1.0.0.rc15-7
- Fix activation of isw raid sets when the disks have serialnumber longer
  then 16 characters (#490121)


fedora-logos-11.0.2-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> 11.0.2-1
- fix missing progress files

* Sun Apr 19 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 11.0.1-2
- fix bootsplash to be a bit more psychadelic


flex-2.5.35-5.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> - 2.5.35-5
- Resolves: #496548.

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 2.5.35-3
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


kdelibs-4.2.2-7.fc11
--------------------
* Sun Apr 19 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 4.2.2-7
- fix and simplify the child struct disposal (kde#180785)

* Sat Apr 18 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 4.2.2-6
- squash leaky file descriptors in kdeinit (kde#180785,rhbz#484370)


kdelibs3-3.5.10-11.fc11
-----------------------
* Sun Apr 19 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 3.5.10-11
- update openssl patch (for 0.9.8k)


kernel-2.6.29.1-102.fc11
------------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Kyle McMartin <kyle at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-102
- git-bluetooth2.patch: Bluetooth fixes from 2.6.30-rc2.

* Sun Apr 19 2009 Mark McLoughlin <markmc at redhat.com> - 2.6.29.1-101
- Fix xen boot on machines without NX support (#492523)


ldm-2.0.33-3.fc11
-----------------
* Sun Apr 19 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 2.0.33-3
- Build using $RPM_OPT_FLAGS.
- Build with dependency tracking disabled for possible speedup and cleaner logs.


libnet10-1.0.2a-17.fc11
-----------------------
* Sat Apr 18 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> 1.0.2a-17
- Enabled a shared library and made lots of spec file cleanups


moe-1.0-5.fc11
--------------
* Sun Apr 19 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> 1.0-5
- Fixed configure to respect the environment's CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS settings.


nautilus-sendto-1.1.4.1-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 1.1.4.1-1
- Update to 1.1.4.1


ntp-4.2.4p6-4.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Miroslav Lichvar <mlichvar at redhat.com> 4.2.4p6-4
- don't restart ntpd in dhclient script with every renewal
- fix buffer overflow in ntpq (#490617)
- check status in condrestart (#481261)
- don't crash when compiled with HAVE_TIMER_CREATE (#486217)


osmo-0.2.4-6.fc11
-----------------
* Sun Apr 19 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> - 0.2.4-6
- Fixed configure to ensure correct usage of CFLAGS and CPPFLAGS, and respect
  the environment's settings.


pygame-1.8.1-6.fc11
-------------------

qemu-0.10-11.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Mark McLoughlin <markmc at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-11
- Fix qcow2 image corruption (#496642)

* Sun Apr 19 2009 Mark McLoughlin <markmc at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-9
- Align VGA ROM to 4k boundary - fixes 'qemu-kvm -std vga' (#494376)

* Sun Apr 19 2009 Mark McLoughlin <markmc at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-10
- Run sysconfig.modules from %post on x86_64 too (#494739)


qgis-1.0.1-2.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.1-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


sabayon-2.25.0-3.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Tomas Bzatek <tbzatek at redhat.com> - 2.25.0-3
- Another, more complete fix for panel gconf save issues (gnome #542604)


selinux-policy-3.6.12-9.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-9
- Add ability to run postdrop from confined users

* Sat Apr 18 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-8
- Fixes for podsleuth

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-6
- Allow cupsd_t to create link files in print_spool_t
- Fix iscsi_stream_connect typo
- Fix labeling on /etc/acpi/actions
- Don't reinstall unconfine and unconfineuser on upgrade if they are not installed

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-7
- Turn off nsplugin transition
- Remove Konsole leaked file descriptors for release

* Tue Apr 14 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-5
- Allow audioentroy to read etc files


sssd-0.3.2-2.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Jakub Hrozek <jhrozek at redhat.com> - 0.3.2-1
- bugfix release 0.3.2
- includes previous release patches
- change permissions of the /etc/sssd/sssd.conf to 0600

* Mon Apr 20 2009 Simo Sorce <ssorce at redhat.com> - 0.3.2-2
- release out of the official 0.3.2 tarball


system-config-date-1.9.38-1.fc11
--------------------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Nils Philippsen <nils at redhat.com> - 1.9.38-1
- restore SELinux context of /etc/localtime (#490323, patch by Daniel Walsh)


wesnoth-1.6.1-1.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 1.6.1-1
- 1.6.1 maintenance release.


Summary:
Added Packages: 0
Removed Packages: 2
Modified Packages: 24
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.i586 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.i586 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit)
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit)
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.ppc requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.ppc requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.ppc64 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit)
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)





From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Tue Apr 21 21:10:43 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?utf-8?q?Skytt=C3=A4?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:10:43 +0300
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <t3j1c6-i83.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<200904211944.37010.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<t3j1c6-i83.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <200904220010.45408.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Matej Cepl wrote:
> On 2009-04-21, 16:44 GMT, Ville Skytt? wrote:
> > On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Debarshi Ray wrote:
> >> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/496897
> >
> > [and others]
>
> It would help more if there was a tracking bug which all these
> individual bugs would be blocking.

Done: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=DebugInfo

Additionally, I know these packages have been fixed since I posted the 
previous list: freeipmi OpenIPMI osmo olpc-utils

The rest: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Scop/DebugInfoProblems



From seg at haxxed.com  Tue Apr 21 21:11:30 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:11:30 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6dc6523c0904211329lef0f43ese6b2b2856d208cb1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240344905.30902.106.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904211329lef0f43ese6b2b2856d208cb1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240348290.30902.129.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 21:29 +0100, John5342 wrote:
> > We just need a standard way of discovering what OpenID providers the
> > user is using, instead of hardwiring Google/Yahoo/whatever. This is
> > probably best accomplished by interaction with the browser, which will
> > need an account manager... (which most already have a "remember
> > passwords" system already...)
> 
> Maybe i have completely misunderstood how openid works but from what i
> gather the whole purpose of using a url as the id is that the url is
> contacted to do the authentication. Therefore we already have a way of
> discovering what openid provider the user is using (its embedded in
> the way it works) and that means no hardwiring needed.

And that's the problem. A user should not have to remember or type or
cut and paste anything. The OpenID account is configured in the browser,
and the browser handles the underlying URL bullcrap the user doesn't
want to see. They simply go to a web site, see a "Log in with <the
user's preferred OpenID provider>", click it and they're done.

As usual, Open Source produces exceptional architecture but completely
fails at user interface. I guess that's what happens when you let Brad
Fitzpatrick design it.
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 21:20:23 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:20:23 -0700
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <1240348823.3101.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 23:07 +0300, Ville Skytt? wrote:
> jkeating     email2trac                  (none)

I just rebuilt this one, will ask for tag request.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Compiler_flags
could certainly use some details on /how/ to apply RPM_OPT_FLAGS
correctly (and why aren't these just autoapplied?)

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From pemboa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 21:23:54 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:23:54 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904211423y5bc8a501k3db8ef6d82b9843a@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:20 PM, John5342 <john5342 at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> 2009/4/21 Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com>:
>>> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:04 +0100, John5342 wrote:
>>>> What i would be interested in though is some kind of standardised api
>>>> implemented in all the major bug trackers so other things can be
>>>> easily implemented on top of them such as semi automated up-streaming
>>>> of bugs. Making use of something like OpenID would reduce the multiple
>>>> login issue.
>>>
>>> +1 the Open Source world fixing the Single Sign-on problem would go a
>>> long way towards solving much irritation. I suppose it's a matter of
>>> getting everyone to support OpenID...
>>
>> The good news with getting everyone to support openid is that most
>> people use some version of one of a limited number of bug tracker
>> systems such as bugzilla or trac. A quick google shows there is
>> already some work being done on making bugzilla support openid. If a
>> few more trackers work on it then we will be well on our way towards
>> convincing individual projects to use it.
>
> OpenID is indeed a solution to one of the problems (multiple bug
> reporting accounts). But that would only work if:
> 1. All bug trackers support OpenID
> 2. all currently using a bug tracker update to a version that uses OpenID.


Why exactly can one use the same email address and password for all
their issue tracker accounts?


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From pemboa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 21:24:27 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:24:27 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904211423y5bc8a501k3db8ef6d82b9843a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904211423y5bc8a501k3db8ef6d82b9843a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904211424r48674ddbg3547ef2cd83ee75@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:23 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:20 PM, John5342 <john5342 at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> 2009/4/21 Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com>:
>>>> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:04 +0100, John5342 wrote:
>>>>> What i would be interested in though is some kind of standardised api
>>>>> implemented in all the major bug trackers so other things can be
>>>>> easily implemented on top of them such as semi automated up-streaming
>>>>> of bugs. Making use of something like OpenID would reduce the multiple
>>>>> login issue.
>>>>
>>>> +1 the Open Source world fixing the Single Sign-on problem would go a
>>>> long way towards solving much irritation. I suppose it's a matter of
>>>> getting everyone to support OpenID...
>>>
>>> The good news with getting everyone to support openid is that most
>>> people use some version of one of a limited number of bug tracker
>>> systems such as bugzilla or trac. A quick google shows there is
>>> already some work being done on making bugzilla support openid. If a
>>> few more trackers work on it then we will be well on our way towards
>>> convincing individual projects to use it.
>>
>> OpenID is indeed a solution to one of the problems (multiple bug
>> reporting accounts). But that would only work if:
>> 1. All bug trackers support OpenID
>> 2. all currently using a bug tracker update to a version that uses OpenID.
>
>
> Why exactly can one use the same email address and password for all
> their issue tracker accounts?


Correction: Why exactly _can't_ one use the same email address and
password for all their issue tracker accounts?


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From bnocera at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 21:26:26 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:26:26 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 13:22 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 13:50 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 23:29 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > > So, the shiny new pulseaudio mixer setup in F11 took away my ability to
> > > tell the panel applet which channel to use. It seems to insist on
> > > messing with the master. I have a second computer hooked in to the line
> > > in, so it can share speakers with my main box. I had it set up so the
> > > master volume was set on maximum, and the panel volume thingy adjusted
> > > the PCM volume. This allowed me to adjust volumes separately, the
> > > secondary box stayed at a constant volume and the main box could be
> > > adjusted freely without affecting the secondary machine.
> > > 
> > > How do I get this behavior back?
> > 
> > _This_ behaviour, no. Any reasons why you don't use PulseAudio over the
> > network instead?
> 
> Because this is simpler. And the secondary box is running Windows XP.
> 
> If anything is there some way I can just have an option to get the old
> damn panel applet back?

I'm pretty sure the interweb provides half-a-gazillion mixer type
applets, but the mixer applet as it were was removed from gnome-applets
upstream.

> Seems like yet another case of ripping out a stable solution and
> replacing it with a new, shiny and immature one that fails to provide
> similar functionality.

You had about a year to complain that the Volume Control feature didn't
include your use case, and given the 0.01% of the population using their
sound system like you do, I doubt it would have crossed our minds that
this could have been the case.

>  Can I at least get a secret gconf key to do what
> I want? :P

The volume control uses PulseAudio, it doesn't use ALSA directly
anymore, so no, there's no secret GConf key for that.



From pemboa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 21:26:22 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:26:22 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240340217.14173.690.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240340217.14173.690.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904211426v1c733179gf09683f3167b3cde@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 20:45 +0200, Mark wrote:
>
>> OpenID is indeed a solution to one of the problems (multiple bug
>> reporting accounts). But that would only work if:
>> 1. All bug trackers support OpenID
>> 2. all currently using a bug tracker update to a version that uses OpenID.
>>
>> >From the reply's so far i see that fedora (or the ones that did
>> respond) would like the idea but have a hard time believing that
>> something this massive can be done.
>
> So you have a hard time believing something as massive as switching to
> OpenID can be done, but you reckon everyone switching to the One True
> Bug Tracker should be perfectly achievable? :)


Implementing OpenID is several times a smaller task than getting
everyone to switch to a single issue tracker.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From bnocera at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 21:29:10 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:29:10 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240337584.1400.TMDA@tmda.severn.wwwdotorg.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240337584.1400.TMDA@tmda.severn.wwwdotorg.org>
Message-ID: <1240349350.4333.3786.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 12:13 -0600, Stephen Warren wrote:
> On Tue, April 21, 2009 6:50 am, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 23:29 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> >> So, the shiny new pulseaudio mixer setup in F11 took away my ability to
> >> tell the panel applet which channel to use. It seems to insist on
> >> messing with the master. I have a second computer hooked in to the line
> >> in, so it can share speakers with my main box. I had it set up so the
> >> master volume was set on maximum, and the panel volume thingy adjusted
> >> the PCM volume. This allowed me to adjust volumes separately, the
> >> secondary box stayed at a constant volume and the main box could be
> >> adjusted freely without affecting the secondary machine.
> >>
> >> How do I get this behavior back?
> >
> > _This_ behaviour, no. Any reasons why you don't use PulseAudio over the
> > network instead?
> >
> > I'm afraid that your use of the volume control wasn't really something
> > we thought about, and I'm not sure that's a use case we're that
> > interested in catering for.
> 
> I think I also rely on this use-case (i.e. telling the mixer which
> channel(s) to control).

No, you don't rely on this use-case. You rely on the same work-around.

> I forget the exact names, but my laptop has separate volume controls for
> the built-in bass and non-bass speakers. In older Fedora releases, this
> "just worked". In F9 (I think), the mixer (and volume buttons on the front
> of the laptop) started to control only the non-bass speaker volume, so
> that the bass volume was always maxed out, which wasn't usable. I had to
> configure the mixer to control both the bass and non-bass mixer channels
> together (and I think I had to hack the alsa configuration to actually
> create the bass mixer channel at all, or something like that)
> 
> So, is this all handled in a better (i.e. automatic) fashion now, or is
> the lack of channel selection going to be another regression for me?

If both mixers should be handled as one, then it should be PulseAudio or
ALSA making that connection between the mixer tracks.

File a bug against PulseAudio with the output of "amixer -c0", the names
of the tracks that should be handled together, and the name of your
sound driver. I'm pretty sure this can be fixed without resorting to a
work-around.



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 21:27:24 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:27:24 -0600
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <1240348823.3101.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<1240348823.3101.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904211427oa6cd65eq9477eb9f00cb78b5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Compiler_flags
> could certainly use some details on /how/ to apply RPM_OPT_FLAGS
> correctly (and why aren't these just autoapplied?)
>
> --
> Jesse Keating
> Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
> identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating

I've seen a number of cases where the upstream developers think they
know the best compiler flags to use, so they ignore the usual means of
supplying CFLAGS and just set their own.  This means that the /how/
you are asking for involves manual inspection of configuration scripts
and makefiles.  Fun for the whole family!
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From mrmazda at ij.net  Tue Apr 21 21:30:40 2009
From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:30:40 -0400
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
Message-ID: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493721
"The new password cannot be the same as your old password or previous passwords."

If you won't let me choose my password, I have no use for you. I have too
many systems and web browsers to use and too many places that need passwords
for any site to decide I can't use my choice of password.  Been nice knowing
you, but Fedora has no use for me, and I have no use for Fedora, if Fedora's
going to be this way. I've changed banks over lesser stupidities.
-- 
"He who works his land will have abundant food, but the
one who chases fantasies will have his fill of poverty."
				Proverbs 28:19 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 21:31:19 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:31:19 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> 
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org> 
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Callum Lerwick writes:
>> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:07 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>> Of course this breaks horribly if the binary is something like kde4-config
>>> (you'll want kde4-config --libsuffix and the like to return different
>>> results for 32-bit or 64-bit builds), and we don't have a good solution for
>>> that. (Yes, kde4-config is an ELF binary, not a script.)
>
>> Because KDE always has to be different and inevitably manages to Do It
>> Wrong.
>
> So, I suppose you can tell me how to do it better? ?mysql-config and
> similar programs have the same issue, so I'm awaiting your wisdom
> with bated breath.
>
> Actually the only reason that mysql-config is a binary and not a script
> is that there doesn't seem to be any other good way for it to know which
> word-width it's supposed to return results for. ?This is one of the main
> problems with trying to do software builds in a multilib environment.
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?regards, tom lane
>

What is wrong with renaming the xxxxx-config binary to
xxxxx-config.%{arch} (or moving it to %{_libdir}) and writing a
platform independent shell script xxxxx-config that will call the
correct xxxxx-config.%{arch} file?

Orcan



From pemboa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 21:36:06 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:36:06 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904211436ladcf4dcs2d38658b366327e9@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:20 PM, John5342 <john5342 at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> 2009/4/21 Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com>:
>>> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:04 +0100, John5342 wrote:
>>>> What i would be interested in though is some kind of standardised api
>>>> implemented in all the major bug trackers so other things can be
>>>> easily implemented on top of them such as semi automated up-streaming
>>>> of bugs. Making use of something like OpenID would reduce the multiple
>>>> login issue.
>>>
>>> +1 the Open Source world fixing the Single Sign-on problem would go a
>>> long way towards solving much irritation. I suppose it's a matter of
>>> getting everyone to support OpenID...
>>
>> The good news with getting everyone to support openid is that most
>> people use some version of one of a limited number of bug tracker
>> systems such as bugzilla or trac. A quick google shows there is
>> already some work being done on making bugzilla support openid. If a
>> few more trackers work on it then we will be well on our way towards
>> convincing individual projects to use it.
>
> OpenID is indeed a solution to one of the problems (multiple bug
> reporting accounts). But that would only work if:
> 1. All bug trackers support OpenID
> 2. all currently using a bug tracker update to a version that uses OpenID.


What exactly is the intended point of having a single IMS? Lets assume
that all IMSs support OpenID, what is the point of a single issue
tracker then?


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From maxamillion at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 21:37:04 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:37:04 -0500
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <1240348823.3101.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<1240348823.3101.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <f12087800904211437p48fd8ac8ie43a351093ad4311@mail.gmail.com>

I fixed both ninvaders and shed, but ifstatus seems to be quite the
pain. The makefile is lacking to say the least and I can't seem to
figure out how to make it spit out a valid debuginfo rpm. When I got
it reviewed, my reviewer had me make a comment in the spec about the
fact that its makefile can't handle %{?_smp_mflags} ... is it possible
that it just won't spit out a debuginfo?

If that's not a possibility, then I would greatly appreciate some direction.
http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/ifstatus-1.1.0-3.src.rpm
http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/ifstatus.spec

Thank you,
-Adam

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 23:07 +0300, Ville Skytt? wrote:
>> jkeating ? ? email2trac ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(none)
>
> I just rebuilt this one, will ask for tag request.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Compiler_flags
> could certainly use some details on /how/ to apply RPM_OPT_FLAGS
> correctly (and why aren't these just autoapplied?)
>
> --
> Jesse Keating
> Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
> identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 21:37:47 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:37:47 -0400
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
Message-ID: <e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493721
> "The new password cannot be the same as your old password or previous passwords."
>
> If you won't let me choose my password, I have no use for you. I have too
> many systems and web browsers to use and too many places that need passwords
> for any site to decide I can't use my choice of password. ?Been nice knowing
> you, but Fedora has no use for me, and I have no use for Fedora, if Fedora's
> going to be this way. I've changed banks over lesser stupidities.

I wonder if we can use ctrl+alt+backspace as a password now in such cases.

I advise you to file a bug in bugzilla about it. Oh wait, now you
can't log on... Pity...

Orcan



From thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net  Tue Apr 21 21:43:12 2009
From: thias at spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.spam.egg.and.spam.freshrpms.net (Matthias Saou)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:43:12 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
Message-ID: <20090421234312.75536c9c@egwn.net>

> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493721
> "The new password cannot be the same as your old password or previous
> passwords."
> 
> If you won't let me choose my password, I have no use for you. I have
> too many systems and web browsers to use and too many places that
> need passwords for any site to decide I can't use my choice of
> password.  Been nice knowing you, but Fedora has no use for me, and I
> have no use for Fedora, if Fedora's going to be this way. I've
> changed banks over lesser stupidities.

Just set a new temporary password, then log and set back your old one.
Yeah, I shouldn't be telling you this...

Matthias



From dr.diesel at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 21:45:51 2009
From: dr.diesel at gmail.com (Dr. Diesel)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:45:51 -0400
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493721
> > "The new password cannot be the same as your old password or previous
> passwords."
> >
> > If you won't let me choose my password, I have no use for you. I have too
> > many systems and web browsers to use and too many places that need
> passwords
> > for any site to decide I can't use my choice of password.  Been nice
> knowing
> > you, but Fedora has no use for me, and I have no use for Fedora, if
> Fedora's
> > going to be this way. I've changed banks over lesser stupidities.
>
> I wonder if we can use ctrl+alt+backspace as a password now in such cases.
>
> I advise you to file a bug in bugzilla about it. Oh wait, now you
> can't log on... Pity...
>
> Orcan
>

Where I work there is a different pass to log-in, then a unique pass for
each piece of software.  So I write them on my monitor case with a pencil,
never forget one and easy to update all 10 or so each month.


-- 
projecthuh.com
All of my bits are free, are yours?  Fedoraproject.org
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 21:47:53 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:47:53 -0700
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904211427oa6cd65eq9477eb9f00cb78b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<1240348823.3101.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<870180fe0904211427oa6cd65eq9477eb9f00cb78b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240350473.3101.68.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 15:27 -0600, Jerry James wrote:
> I've seen a number of cases where the upstream developers think they
> know the best compiler flags to use, so they ignore the usual means of
> supplying CFLAGS and just set their own.  This means that the /how/
> you are asking for involves manual inspection of configuration scripts
> and makefiles.  Fun for the whole family!

In some cases yes, but in the general case, I had to do 
make %{?_smp_mflags} CFLAGS="$RPM_OPT_FLAGS"

and I had to google around to figure out where to stuff the
RPM_OPT_FLAGS at.  This kind of info should be in the guidelines.


-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From tgl at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 21:50:51 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:50:51 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib 
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com> writes:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Actually the only reason that mysql-config is a binary and not a script
>> is that there doesn't seem to be any other good way for it to know which
>> word-width it's supposed to return results for. This is one of the main
>> problems with trying to do software builds in a multilib environment.

> What is wrong with renaming the xxxxx-config binary to
> xxxxx-config.%{arch} (or moving it to %{_libdir}) and writing a
> platform independent shell script xxxxx-config that will call the
> correct xxxxx-config.%{arch} file?

How is the platform independent shell script to know which arch-specific
file to call?  (This is an actual question, not a rhetorical one.)
AFAIK there is nothing it can look at that isn't likely to do the Wrong
Thing from the perspective of someone trying to build software.

			regards, tom lane



From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Tue Apr 21 21:52:58 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?iso-8859-1?q?Skytt=E4?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:52:58 +0300
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904211427oa6cd65eq9477eb9f00cb78b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<1240348823.3101.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<870180fe0904211427oa6cd65eq9477eb9f00cb78b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904220052.59140.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Wednesday 22 April 2009, Jerry James wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Compiler_flags
> > could certainly use some details on /how/ to apply RPM_OPT_FLAGS
> > correctly (and why aren't these just autoapplied?)
>
> I've seen a number of cases where the upstream developers think they
> know the best compiler flags to use, so they ignore the usual means of
> supplying CFLAGS and just set their own.  This means that the /how/
> you are asking for involves manual inspection of configuration scripts
> and makefiles.  Fun for the whole family!

Right.  But thankfully most packages' upstreams don't do that, and using 
%configure, %cmake* and possibly some other macros gets optflags autoapplied 
just fine.  And this could be a good generic improvement for others: 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/473602



From opensource at till.name  Tue Apr 21 21:55:49 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:55:49 +0200
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904211437p48fd8ac8ie43a351093ad4311@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<1240348823.3101.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<f12087800904211437p48fd8ac8ie43a351093ad4311@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904212356.03202.opensource@till.name>

On Di April 21 2009, Adam Miller wrote:
> I fixed both ninvaders and shed, but ifstatus seems to be quite the
> pain. The makefile is lacking to say the least and I can't seem to
> figure out how to make it spit out a valid debuginfo rpm. When I got
> it reviewed, my reviewer had me make a comment in the spec about the
> fact that its makefile can't handle %{?_smp_mflags} ... is it possible
> that it just won't spit out a debuginfo?
>
> If that's not a possibility, then I would greatly appreciate some
> direction. http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/ifstatus-1.1.0-3.src.rpm
> http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/ifstatus.spec

The Makefile uses the default target to create .o files from .cc files. You 
can run this in the spec to get the optflags into make (or adjust the Makefile 
patch to also set CXXFLAGS to RPM_OPT_FLAGS by default):

make "CXXFLAGS=%{optflags}"

Regards
Till
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From maxamillion at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 22:02:28 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:02:28 -0500
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904212356.03202.opensource@till.name>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<1240348823.3101.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<f12087800904211437p48fd8ac8ie43a351093ad4311@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904212356.03202.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: <f12087800904211502y1d066072rfe2b30b4f834345d@mail.gmail.com>

Till,
    I was apparently missing the CXXFLAGS, I had tried it with the
CFLAGS but it wasn't getting me anywhere.

Thanks,
    -Adam

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Till Maas <opensource at till.name> wrote:
> On Di April 21 2009, Adam Miller wrote:
>> I fixed both ninvaders and shed, but ifstatus seems to be quite the
>> pain. The makefile is lacking to say the least and I can't seem to
>> figure out how to make it spit out a valid debuginfo rpm. When I got
>> it reviewed, my reviewer had me make a comment in the spec about the
>> fact that its makefile can't handle %{?_smp_mflags} ... is it possible
>> that it just won't spit out a debuginfo?
>>
>> If that's not a possibility, then I would greatly appreciate some
>> direction. http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/ifstatus-1.1.0-3.src.rpm
>> http://maxamillion.fedorapeople.org/ifstatus.spec
>
> The Makefile uses the default target to create .o files from .cc files. You
> can run this in the spec to get the optflags into make (or adjust the Makefile
> patch to also set CXXFLAGS to RPM_OPT_FLAGS by default):
>
> make "CXXFLAGS=%{optflags}"
>
> Regards
> Till
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Apr 21 22:14:08 2009
From: jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk (James Gallagher)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:14:08 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
Message-ID: <536433.80523.qm@web26701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>




--- On Tue, 21/4/09, Andre Robatino <andre at bwh.harvard.edu> wrote:

> From: Andre Robatino <andre at bwh.harvard.edu>
> Subject: Re: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
> To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> Date: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009, 9:05 PM
> > So there is! Doesn't work on F9
> -> F10 but on F10 -> F11 beta DVD (x86_64)
> > I get a delta iso image of 2.2GB, about 53% less than
> the full iso.
> > Hmm, not as good as I was expecting, probably not
> worth making a fuss > about unless we could get <1GB.
> 
> A lot of people would probably be very happy with cutting
> the download in half.? On a 768 Kbit/s connection it
> would reduce download time from about 12 hours to six.?
> If the tool doesn't take too long to do the reconstruction
> after downloading, and if it's reliable (so one doesn't have
> to download 2GB only to find out it doesn't work, then
> download the full 4GB anyway) the deltaiso should be
> available as a download option.
> 
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> 
> -- 
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list

The bad news is the reconstruction is quite slow, ~40 mins on a 2GHz Core 2 Duo, 2GB ram. Here are the full stats, for the delta between F10 final and F11 beta DVD x86_64:

ls -lh Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso 
-rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 4.1G 2009-04-21 17:25 Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso


makedelta iso Fedora-10-x86_64-DVD.iso Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso F10_F11_delta.iso

ls -lh F10_F11_delta.iso
-rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 2.2G 2009-04-21 19:33 F10_F11_delta.iso

(53% of the size of the full F11 dvd)


time applydeltaiso Fedora-10-x86_64-DVD.iso F10_F11_delta.iso F11_reconstructed.iso
...
iso sucessfully re-created, md5sum: 9dc917523132a3d269c59c91b647525a

real	41m8.534s
user	37m53.129s
sys	0m34.155s


ls -lh F11_reconstructed.iso 
-rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 4.1G 2009-04-21 22:45 F11_reconstructed.iso


md5sum Fedora-11-Beta-x86_64-DVD.iso
9dc917523132a3d269c59c91b647525a


So, the delta iso image is ~half the size of the full iso, and it takes ~40 mins to reconstruct the full iso (on a 2GHz core2 Duo, 2GB Ram).

Now a question for anyone: does the F11 beta release contain lots of debug code and if so would you expect the final dvd to have a smaller delta iso?

And one further point: wouldn't this be particularly useful for successive test releases, alphas, beta, release-candidates, since the deltas would be tiny.


      



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 22:14:17 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:14:17 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> 
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org> 
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us> 
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com> 
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil writes:
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
>>> Actually the only reason that mysql-config is a binary and not a script
>>> is that there doesn't seem to be any other good way for it to know which
>>> word-width it's supposed to return results for. This is one of the main
>>> problems with trying to do software builds in a multilib environment.
>
>> What is wrong with renaming the xxxxx-config binary to
>> xxxxx-config.%{arch} (or moving it to %{_libdir}) and writing a
>> platform independent shell script xxxxx-config that will call the
>> correct xxxxx-config.%{arch} file?
>
> How is the platform independent shell script to know which arch-specific
> file to call? ?(This is an actual question, not a rhetorical one.)
> AFAIK there is nothing it can look at that isn't likely to do the Wrong
> Thing from the perspective of someone trying to build software.
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?regards, tom lane

This is only for preventing file conflicts between RPMs. Honestly, as
I said before, I really don't understand the need of keeping different
arch devel packages in the same system at the same time.

Just remove one and install another. You can even write a simple
script to do this. Create a local repo if you are worried about the
time loss.

If you are dying for keeping different arch devel packages in the same
system, you can write your code accordingly.

Orcan



From icon at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 21 22:20:15 2009
From: icon at fedoraproject.org (Konstantin Ryabitsev)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:20:15 -0400
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Dr. Diesel <dr.diesel at gmail.com> wrote:
> Where I work there is a different pass to log-in, then a unique pass for
> each piece of software.? So I write them on my monitor case with a pencil,
> never forget one and easy to update all 10 or so each month.

I routinely rely on http://supergenpass.com/ to have unique per-site
passwords that I don't have to remember -- only the master password.

-- 
Konstantin Ryabitsev
Montr?al, Qu?bec



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Tue Apr 21 22:26:49 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:26:49 +0800
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <20090421234312.75536c9c@egwn.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net> <20090421234312.75536c9c@egwn.net>
Message-ID: <49EE4829.8070506@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/22/2009 05:43 AM, Matthias Saou wrote:
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493721
>> "The new password cannot be the same as your old password or previous
>> passwords."
>>
>> If you won't let me choose my password, I have no use for you. I have
>> too many systems and web browsers to use and too many places that
>> need passwords for any site to decide I can't use my choice of
>> password.  Been nice knowing you, but Fedora has no use for me, and I
>> have no use for Fedora, if Fedora's going to be this way. I've
>> changed banks over lesser stupidities.
>>      
>
> Just set a new temporary password, then log and set back your old one.
> Yeah, I shouldn't be telling you this...
>
> Matthias
>    
Would that work?  The message says "...or previous passwords".



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Tue Apr 21 22:28:09 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:28:09 +0800
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/22/2009 06:20 AM, Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Dr. Diesel<dr.diesel at gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Where I work there is a different pass to log-in, then a unique pass for
>> each piece of software.  So I write them on my monitor case with a pencil,
>> never forget one and easy to update all 10 or so each month.
>>      
>
> I routinely rely on http://supergenpass.com/ to have unique per-site
> passwords that I don't have to remember -- only the master password.
>
>    
I use Password Generator + Revelation under Gnome for exactly the same 
purpose.  I've gotten quite used to it, and I like the idea of now 
having secure passwords for almost all of my accounts.



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 22:32:40 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:32:40 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:28 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On 04/22/2009 06:20 AM, Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Dr. Diesel<dr.diesel at gmail.com>  wrote:
> >    
> >> Where I work there is a different pass to log-in, then a unique pass for
> >> each piece of software.  So I write them on my monitor case with a pencil,
> >> never forget one and easy to update all 10 or so each month.
> >>      
> >
> > I routinely rely on http://supergenpass.com/ to have unique per-site
> > passwords that I don't have to remember -- only the master password.
> >
> >    
> I use Password Generator + Revelation under Gnome for exactly the same 
> purpose.  I've gotten quite used to it, and I like the idea of now 
> having secure passwords for almost all of my accounts.

Yeah, me too, I couldn't live without Revelation now.

In terms of the initial complaint, it does seem valid to me. Does an
ordinary Bugzilla account really need that level of security
busybodying?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 22:36:56 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:36:56 -0700
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904211426v1c733179gf09683f3167b3cde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240340217.14173.690.camel@adam.local.net>
	<16de708d0904211426v1c733179gf09683f3167b3cde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240353416.14173.696.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 16:26 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 20:45 +0200, Mark wrote:
> >
> >> OpenID is indeed a solution to one of the problems (multiple bug
> >> reporting accounts). But that would only work if:
> >> 1. All bug trackers support OpenID
> >> 2. all currently using a bug tracker update to a version that uses OpenID.
> >>
> >> >From the reply's so far i see that fedora (or the ones that did
> >> respond) would like the idea but have a hard time believing that
> >> something this massive can be done.
> >
> > So you have a hard time believing something as massive as switching to
> > OpenID can be done, but you reckon everyone switching to the One True
> > Bug Tracker should be perfectly achievable? :)
> 
> Implementing OpenID is several times a smaller task than getting
> everyone to switch to a single issue tracker.

Er, yes. That's exactly what I was saying.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Tue Apr 21 22:39:55 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:39:55 +0800
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240347482.30902.118.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6e24a8e80904211337q7d312ad3p99e3b5e4619e4681@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240347482.30902.118.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EE4B3B.7000404@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/22/2009 04:58 AM, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 22:37 +0200, Mark wrote:
>    
>> I'm also playing a bit with the idea that there is one central bug
>> tracking system with ALL (ideally) foss projects in it and that place
>> is the main and upstream place(that's the general idea you all know by
>> now).
>>      
>
> No. This is not desirable. Forget it, it's never going to happen. Clear
> your mind. Think git, not CVS. Think distributed bug tracking.
>
> Interoperation, not consolidation.
>
> And there's the basic fact that no one wants a single point of failure.
> What if the One Bug Tracker To Rule Them All goes down? The entire Open
> Source world screeches to a halt? Who is everyone going to trust to run
> this thing? What if the OBTTRTA gets hacked?
>
> The beauty of Open Source is that people are *not* forced to work
> together.
>    
I think the same argument could be made to apply to FreeNode for IRC, 
and yet, it seems to be working out just fine for the vast majority of 
FOSS projects.  So, the "One X to Y them all" concept can theoretically 
work for some aspects of FOSS development.  However, everyone's (almost, 
at least) are already using FreeNode, so we don't really have to 
convince anyone.

Having said that, I think you're on to something about the git vs. CVS 
concept - distributed bug tracking.  There's already something minorly 
akin to this with feature of remote bugs in Bugzilla, such as in 
Ubuntu's launchpad or Gnome's Bugzilla.  Maybe it's not single-sign on 
that's needed, but a standard interface for bugs across different 
implementations, such that data can be gleaned from them via web 
services.  Yeah, doesn't sound so yummy, but it's something that can be 
implemented gradually, as well.



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Tue Apr 21 22:45:53 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:45:53 +0800
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/22/2009 06:32 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:28 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>    
>> On 04/22/2009 06:20 AM, Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote:
>>      
>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Dr. Diesel<dr.diesel at gmail.com>   wrote:
>>>
>>>        
>>>> Where I work there is a different pass to log-in, then a unique pass for
>>>> each piece of software.  So I write them on my monitor case with a pencil,
>>>> never forget one and easy to update all 10 or so each month.
>>>>
>>>>          
>>> I routinely rely on http://supergenpass.com/ to have unique per-site
>>> passwords that I don't have to remember -- only the master password.
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>> I use Password Generator + Revelation under Gnome for exactly the same
>> purpose.  I've gotten quite used to it, and I like the idea of now
>> having secure passwords for almost all of my accounts.
>>      
>
> Yeah, me too, I couldn't live without Revelation now.
>
> In terms of the initial complaint, it does seem valid to me. Does an
> ordinary Bugzilla account really need that level of security
> busybodying?
>    
I agree, actually.  Can poorly-authenticated access to Bugzilla really 
cause such a degree of havoc?

Incidentally, I think tying Bugzilla accounts into FAS would be fine.  
Lots of consolidation work to do, I'm sure, but in the end, it'll be 
worth, and at least it's one more set of account information that needs 
to be kept/tracked.



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 22:49:46 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:49:46 -0700
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <49EE4B3B.7000404@hidayahonline.org>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6e24a8e80904211337q7d312ad3p99e3b5e4619e4681@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240347482.30902.118.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE4B3B.7000404@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1240354186.14173.697.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:39 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:

> > And there's the basic fact that no one wants a single point of failure.
> > What if the One Bug Tracker To Rule Them All goes down? The entire Open
> > Source world screeches to a halt? Who is everyone going to trust to run
> > this thing? What if the OBTTRTA gets hacked?
> >
> > The beauty of Open Source is that people are *not* forced to work
> > together.
> >    
> I think the same argument could be made to apply to FreeNode for IRC, 
> and yet, it seems to be working out just fine for the vast majority of 
> FOSS projects.  So, the "One X to Y them all" concept can theoretically 
> work for some aspects of FOSS development.  However, everyone's (almost, 
> at least) are already using FreeNode, so we don't really have to 
> convince anyone.

Er, except that most of GNOME is still on GimpNet. That's a fairly large
hole.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From devrim at gunduz.org  Tue Apr 21 23:17:41 2009
From: devrim at gunduz.org (Devrim =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=DCND=DCZ?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 02:17:41 +0300
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240355861.22352.109.camel@laptop-hp.gunduz.org>

On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> devrim  classpathx-jaf

Any ideas how I can fix this?

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1313341&name=build.log

Regards,
-- 
Devrim G?ND?Z, RHCE
devrim~gunduz.org, devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr
                   http://www.gunduz.org
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From a.badger at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 23:35:09 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:35:09 -0700
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <1240350473.3101.68.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>	<1240348823.3101.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<870180fe0904211427oa6cd65eq9477eb9f00cb78b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240350473.3101.68.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EE582D.1090404@gmail.com>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 15:27 -0600, Jerry James wrote:
>> I've seen a number of cases where the upstream developers think they
>> know the best compiler flags to use, so they ignore the usual means of
>> supplying CFLAGS and just set their own.  This means that the /how/
>> you are asking for involves manual inspection of configuration scripts
>> and makefiles.  Fun for the whole family!
> 
> In some cases yes, but in the general case, I had to do 
> make %{?_smp_mflags} CFLAGS="$RPM_OPT_FLAGS"
> 
> and I had to google around to figure out where to stuff the
> RPM_OPT_FLAGS at.  This kind of info should be in the guidelines.
> 
> 
Current paragraph:
"""
Compilers used to build packages should honor the applicable compiler
flags set in the system rpm configuration. As of Aug 2006, this means in
practice $RPM_OPT_FLAGS/%{optflags} for C, C++, and Fortran compilers.
Honoring means that the contents of that variable is used as the basis
of the flags actually used by the compiler during the package build.
Adding to and overriding or filtering parts of these flags is permitted
if there's a good reason to do so; the rationale for doing so should be
reviewed and documented in the specfile especially in the override and
filter cases.
"""

Proposed additional paragraph:

"""
Most C, C++, and Fortran programs will pick up the correct compiler
flags from the %configure macro.  If your program does not use
%configure the de facto standard is that C compiler flags are picked up
via the CFLAGS make variable, C++ Compiler flags via the CXXFLAGS
variable, and Fortran flags via FFLAGS.  So, you could have something
like this in your spec file:

<pre>
make CFLAGS=%{optflags} all
</pre>

If the build still does not pick up the proper compiler flags, you will
have to look in the configure script or Makefiles to diagnose what's
going on.
"""

If you guys like this, I'll propose it to the Packaging Committee.

-Toshio

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From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Tue Apr 21 23:41:23 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:41:23 -0500
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <20090421234123.GD1301601@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Basil Mohamed Gohar <abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org> said:
> Incidentally, I think tying Bugzilla accounts into FAS would be fine.  

Uh, wouldn't that mean only FAS account holders could open or comment on
bugs?  Aside from Red Hat using the same bugzilla for RHEL and other
products, it would be nice to still get bug reports from Fedora end
users.

-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From sandeen at redhat.com  Tue Apr 21 23:53:31 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:53:31 -0500
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <20090421234123.GD1301601@hiwaay.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<20090421234123.GD1301601@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <49EE5C7B.2070905@redhat.com>

Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Basil Mohamed Gohar <abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org> said:
>> Incidentally, I think tying Bugzilla accounts into FAS would be fine.  
> 
> Uh, wouldn't that mean only FAS account holders could open or comment on
> bugs?  Aside from Red Hat using the same bugzilla for RHEL and other
> products, it would be nice to still get bug reports from Fedora end
> users.

I assume that the proposal was for a FAS account to be sufficient, but
not necessary.

-Eric



From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Tue Apr 21 23:54:20 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:54:20 -0400
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
Message-ID: <49EE5CAC.9070203@bwh.harvard.edu>

I made and then applied the deltaiso between 32-bit F9 final and F10 final.

[andre at compaq-pc tmp]$ ls -l Fedora*iso new.iso
-rw-rw-r-- 1 andre andre 3662573568 2009-04-21 18:17 Fedora-10-i386-DVD.iso
-rw-rw-r-- 1 andre andre 1819893388 2009-04-21 19:03 
Fedora-9_10-i386-DVD.diso
-rw-rw-r-- 1 andre andre 3580680192 2009-04-21 18:10 Fedora-9-i386-DVD.iso
-rw-rw-r-- 1 andre andre 3662573568 2009-04-21 19:43 new.iso

The deltaiso is just under half the size of the full ISO.  On my 
single-core 2.7 GHz AMD box with 4GB of RAM, applydeltaiso took just 
under 38 minutes (makedeltaiso took 40).  My download speed is 3 
Mbits/s, so even with a full speed download, it takes about 3 hours for 
the full ISO, so my reconstruction time is less than half of the saved 
download time.  For someone on 768 Kbits/s, it's much better than that. 
    I would definitely download the deltaiso if it was available.

 > ~40 mins on a 2GHz Core 2 Duo, 2GB ram.

Does applydeltaiso make use of multiple cores, or just one?  I'm 
guessing just one.  It probably doesn't need that much memory, either, 
since it only processes one package at a time and reads/writes to disk.
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 00:16:57 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:16:57 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:45 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> I agree, actually.  Can poorly-authenticated access to Bugzilla really 
> cause such a degree of havoc?

It can leak NDA information from Red Hat partners to non-Red Hat folks,
which could cause Red Hat to be sued.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 00:18:13 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:18:13 -0700
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <49EE582D.1090404@gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<1240348823.3101.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<870180fe0904211427oa6cd65eq9477eb9f00cb78b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240350473.3101.68.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE582D.1090404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240359493.3101.71.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 16:35 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> 
> Proposed additional paragraph:
> 
> """
> Most C, C++, and Fortran programs will pick up the correct compiler
> flags from the %configure macro.  If your program does not use
> %configure the de facto standard is that C compiler flags are picked up
> via the CFLAGS make variable, C++ Compiler flags via the CXXFLAGS
> variable, and Fortran flags via FFLAGS.  So, you could have something
> like this in your spec file:
> 
> <pre>
> make CFLAGS=%{optflags} all
> </pre>
> 
> If the build still does not pick up the proper compiler flags, you will
> have to look in the configure script or Makefiles to diagnose what's
> going on.
> """
> 
> If you guys like this, I'll propose it to the Packaging Committee.

Looks good to me!

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From markg85 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 00:18:26 2009
From: markg85 at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 02:18:26 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904211436ladcf4dcs2d38658b366327e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904211436ladcf4dcs2d38658b366327e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6e24a8e80904211718p231a9805s7e1da935b5ffce1@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:36 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:20 PM, John5342 <john5342 at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> 2009/4/21 Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com>:
>>>> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:04 +0100, John5342 wrote:
>>>>> What i would be interested in though is some kind of standardised api
>>>>> implemented in all the major bug trackers so other things can be
>>>>> easily implemented on top of them such as semi automated up-streaming
>>>>> of bugs. Making use of something like OpenID would reduce the multiple
>>>>> login issue.
>>>>
>>>> +1 the Open Source world fixing the Single Sign-on problem would go a
>>>> long way towards solving much irritation. I suppose it's a matter of
>>>> getting everyone to support OpenID...
>>>
>>> The good news with getting everyone to support openid is that most
>>> people use some version of one of a limited number of bug tracker
>>> systems such as bugzilla or trac. A quick google shows there is
>>> already some work being done on making bugzilla support openid. If a
>>> few more trackers work on it then we will be well on our way towards
>>> convincing individual projects to use it.
>>
>> OpenID is indeed a solution to one of the problems (multiple bug
>> reporting accounts). But that would only work if:
>> 1. All bug trackers support OpenID
>> 2. all currently using a bug tracker update to a version that uses OpenID.
>
>
> What exactly is the intended point of having a single IMS? Lets assume
> that all IMSs support OpenID, what is the point of a single issue
> tracker then?

For all your questions: read the first post.



On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Basil Mohamed Gohar
<abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org> wrote:
> On 04/22/2009 04:58 AM, Callum Lerwick wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 22:37 +0200, Mark wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm also playing a bit with the idea that there is one central bug
>>> tracking system with ALL (ideally) foss projects in it and that place
>>> is the main and upstream place(that's the general idea you all know by
>>> now).
>>>
>>
>> No. This is not desirable. Forget it, it's never going to happen. Clear
>> your mind. Think git, not CVS. Think distributed bug tracking.
>>
>> Interoperation, not consolidation.
>>
>> And there's the basic fact that no one wants a single point of failure.
>> What if the One Bug Tracker To Rule Them All goes down? The entire Open
>> Source world screeches to a halt? Who is everyone going to trust to run
>> this thing? What if the OBTTRTA gets hacked?
>>
>> The beauty of Open Source is that people are *not* forced to work
>> together.
>>
>
> I think the same argument could be made to apply to FreeNode for IRC, and
> yet, it seems to be working out just fine for the vast majority of FOSS
> projects.  So, the "One X to Y them all" concept can theoretically work for
> some aspects of FOSS development.  However, everyone's (almost, at least)
> are already using FreeNode, so we don't really have to convince anyone.
>
> Having said that, I think you're on to something about the git vs. CVS
> concept - distributed bug tracking.  There's already something minorly akin
> to this with feature of remote bugs in Bugzilla, such as in Ubuntu's
> launchpad or Gnome's Bugzilla.  Maybe it's not single-sign on that's needed,
> but a standard interface for bugs across different implementations, such
> that data can be gleaned from them via web services.  Yeah, doesn't sound so
> yummy, but it's something that can be implemented gradually, as well.

Ehm.. this is not a new piece of software that's going to compete with
existing ones.
It's a piece that will join all existing ones, offer a database where
the existing ones "hook" in, without losing the existing ones (or
that's what would be best if you ask me).



From bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se  Wed Apr 22 00:36:43 2009
From: bjorn at xn--rombobjrn-67a.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bj=F6rn_Persson?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 02:36:43 +0200
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <1240296102.3049.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<gsj79u$bei$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240296102.3049.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904220236.43704.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>

Pierre-Yves wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 03:25 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > The format is fairly straightforward:
> >
> > * first line (elements separated by spaces):
> >   - asterisk
> >   - date in Wkd Mth dd yyyy format (e.g. Mon Apr 21 2009)
> >     (if the day is just 1 digit, you can write any of "1", " 1" or "01")
> >   - your name
> >   - your e-mail address between angle brackets ('<' and '>')
> >   - optionally a dash
> >   - the EVR (Epoch-Version-Release) of the package, without the disttag,
> >     e.g. 3.5.10-1 for 3.5.10-1.fc11, 3.5.10-1.1 for 3.5.10-1.fc11.1,
> >          6:4.2.2-1 if the package has Epoch 6 (the Epoch is specified
> > only if present and you use a ':' between Epoch and Version)
> >
> > * any other lines (elements separated by spaces):
> >   - dash (plain ASCII dash, please don't use some strange UTF-8
> > character) - text describing your change
> >   - if your change doesn't fit in one line, start a new line and indent
> > it with 2 spaces, so it is aligned with the text above (which has a dash
> > and a space)
> >   - bugs should be referenced as (#666666) (or, if there's any chance of
> >     confusion, (rh#666666)) for Fedora bugs and as (foo#666666), where
> > foo is the relevant bug tracker (e.g. kde, sf, fdo etc.), for upstream
> > bugs
>
> ( I have always been told that there should be one empty line between
> two entry :) )

Thanks Kevin and Pierre, that's a good description. If I could edit the wiki 
I'd add that to the guidelines.

The dash at the start of "other" lines is one thing that RPMlint doesn't 
check.

Bj?rn Persson
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 00:43:39 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:43:39 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 17:16 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:45 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > I agree, actually.  Can poorly-authenticated access to Bugzilla really 
> > cause such a degree of havoc?
> 
> It can leak NDA information from Red Hat partners to non-Red Hat folks,
> which could cause Red Hat to be sued.

So, another Red Hat issue affecting Fedora. :\ I presume the enhanced
busybodying can't only be enforced on the accounts which can actually
access restricted info?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From xjakub at fi.muni.cz  Wed Apr 22 00:43:24 2009
From: xjakub at fi.muni.cz (Milos Jakubicek)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 02:43:24 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49EE682C.50807@fi.muni.cz>

Bill Nottingham wrote:
> The following packages have yet to be built in dist-f11, meaning they
> haven't been rebuilt with the new compiler, they have not been built
> with the new RPM hashes, and so on.
> 
> While we don't want to cause disruption, we would like to see these
> fixed if reasonably possible.

[snip]

> rezso	libgeotiff

This one fails because of -fstack-protector...what to do -- remove 
-fstack-protector or not?

Failed build:
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1313019

Complete build (with -fno-stack-protector): 
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1313614

Regards,
Milos



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 01:10:12 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:10:12 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 22:26 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 13:22 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 13:50 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> I'm pretty sure the interweb provides half-a-gazillion mixer type
> applets, but the mixer applet as it were was removed from gnome-applets
> upstream.

Which is stupid. Deprecate first, then remove only after the new code
has gone through at least one cycle of wide release.

> > Seems like yet another case of ripping out a stable solution and
> > replacing it with a new, shiny and immature one that fails to provide
> > similar functionality.
> 
> You had about a year to complain that the Volume Control feature didn't
> include your use case, and given the 0.01% of the population using their
> sound system like you do, I doubt it would have crossed our minds that
> this could have been the case.

Well I'm sorry, I wasn't able to figure out from an abstract description
and a lot of tl;dr that my use case was going to get screwed. And I
don't have the time to dick around getting my babies eaten following
Rawhide on my critical primary desktop machine. As a personal policy
from experience I don't touch rawhide until Beta. I have Shit To Do that
doesn't include being a damned alpha tester. And even so I'm lucky if I
can even get !@#$ing Beta to install before final release.

I've spent many weeks and many long annoying reboot cycles interrupting
my Shit To Do, filing bugs trying to get preupgrade to even work:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493685
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494992
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=496406

I finally just temporally stripped my fstab bare so I could get the
damned thing to install. Once upgraded, I had to screw around trying to
figure out why Pulseaudio was doing nothing but spin in place, eating
100% CPU, getting killed off by the CPU limiter, respawning, and
repeating. Which seemed to magically fix itself after updating to the
Feb 20th rawhide.

Which brings me to now. Fedora 11 isn't even released yet. So don't give
me any bullshit about not being proactive about testing. Pulseaudio
isn't the only broken crap in Fedora.

> >  Can I at least get a secret gconf key to do what
> > I want? :P
> 
> The volume control uses PulseAudio, it doesn't use ALSA directly
> anymore, so no, there's no secret GConf key for that.

So a PulseAudio config option then. Do I have to write the patch myself?

And why do Pidgin alert sounds explode my speakers now? Yeah pump the
hardware volume up to 100%, that's great... Why does Pidgin still not
have native Pulseaudio support? I set it to use paplay because in the
past Pidgin would leak PA connections and RAM like crazy and choke the
machine dead any other way. This "flat volume" thing now seems to mean
short alert tones will cause obnoxious volume glitching if they happen
to be louder than my music.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 01:22:43 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:22:43 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <49EE4B3B.7000404@hidayahonline.org>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6e24a8e80904211337q7d312ad3p99e3b5e4619e4681@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240347482.30902.118.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE4B3B.7000404@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1240363363.30902.269.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:39 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> I think the same argument could be made to apply to FreeNode for IRC, 
> and yet, it seems to be working out just fine for the vast majority of 
> FOSS projects.  So, the "One X to Y them all" concept can theoretically 
> work for some aspects of FOSS development.  However, everyone's (almost, 
> at least) are already using FreeNode, so we don't really have to 
> convince anyone.

... And the IRC protocol itself happens to be an excellent example of
the principle of "interoperation not consolidation". FreeNode doesn't
consist of one server. FreeNode isn't the only IRC network out there.
There's a wide variety of IRC server software available, capable of
interoperating. And there's uncountable hundreds of small private IRC
servers and networks out there dedicated to small groups of friends...

(And every application expands until it can read email and connect to
IRC...)
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From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 01:31:15 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:31:15 -0500
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1240363875.30902.274.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:28 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote: 
> I use Password Generator + Revelation under Gnome for exactly the same 
> purpose.  I've gotten quite used to it, and I like the idea of now 
> having secure passwords for almost all of my accounts.

Me too. It's mindboggling how many passwords I actually have.

If only revelation could use gnome-keyring as its storage backend. And
if only Firefox used gnome-keyring as its storage backend...

Having my passwords constantly pass through cut-and-paste makes me feel
unsafe. Especially as I use synergy...
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 01:32:19 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:32:19 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240363939.3101.73.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 17:43 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> So, another Red Hat issue affecting Fedora. :\ I presume the enhanced
> busybodying can't only be enforced on the accounts which can actually
> access restricted info?

*shrug* file a bug and see if they're taking patches

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Wed Apr 22 01:44:35 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:44:35 -0500
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090422014435.GG1301601@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> said:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 17:16 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:45 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > > I agree, actually.  Can poorly-authenticated access to Bugzilla really 
> > > cause such a degree of havoc?
> > 
> > It can leak NDA information from Red Hat partners to non-Red Hat folks,
> > which could cause Red Hat to be sued.
> 
> So, another Red Hat issue affecting Fedora. :\

s/NDA.*partners/CVE/;
s/Red Hat folks/security team/;
s/Red Hat to be sued/Fedora to be excluded/;

-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From ianweller at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 01:54:16 2009
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:54:16 -0500
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EE4829.8070506@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net> <20090421234312.75536c9c@egwn.net>
	<49EE4829.8070506@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <20090422015416.GA25618@gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 06:26:49AM +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On 04/22/2009 05:43 AM, Matthias Saou wrote:
>> Just set a new temporary password, then log and set back your old one.
>> Yeah, I shouldn't be telling you this...
>>
>> Matthias
>>    
> Would that work?  The message says "...or previous passwords".
>
I've seen it work.

-- 
Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com>
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 02:09:51 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:09:51 +0800
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904211718p231a9805s7e1da935b5ffce1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904211436ladcf4dcs2d38658b366327e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211718p231a9805s7e1da935b5ffce1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EE7C6F.4090507@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/22/2009 08:18 AM, Mark wrote:
>
> Ehm.. this is not a new piece of software that's going to compete with
> existing ones.
> It's a piece that will join all existing ones, offer a database where
> the existing ones "hook" in, without losing the existing ones (or
> that's what would be best if you ask me).
>
>    
How about a meta website that, for every project, can keep track of 
various bug trackers that are used for that project (for example, all 
Gnome apps are tracked both in the Gnome bugzilla as well as the Red Hat 
one, and possibly elsewhere, as well).  This site would just consume 
data from the various sources and allow someone to get a snapshot.  This 
would, of course require some modifications to all bug trackers, but in 
a way that is interoperable and freedom-friendly.

This may be what you meant, but I wanted to spell out exactly what I was 
thinking when I read it, so that there's no ambiguity.

Think of it kind of like distrowatch for general OS information, but 
specialized for bugs, and directly feeding from the bug trackers themselves.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 03:30:31 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:30:31 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 18:14 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> This is only for preventing file conflicts between RPMs. Honestly, as
> I said before, I really don't understand the need of keeping different
> arch devel packages in the same system at the same time.

Why would you need to avoid conflicts if you're *not* going to install
them both at the same time?

> Just remove one and install another. You can even write a simple
> script to do this. Create a local repo if you are worried about the
> time loss.

Why would I want to run a root command that screws with my root
filesystem as part of my edit-compile-test cycle?

$ gcc -O2 -Wall -m32 hello.c -o hello
$ file ./hello
./hello: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV),
dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not
stripped
$ ./hello
Hello world!
$ gcc -O2 -Wall -m64 hello.c -o hello
$ file ./hello
./hello: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV),
dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not
stripped
$ ./hello
Hello world!
$ i686-pc-mingw32-gcc -O2 -Wall hello.c -o hello.exe
$ file ./hello.exe 
./hello.exe: PE32 executable for MS Windows (console) Intel 80386 32-bit
$ ./hello.exe 
Hello world!
$ mipsel-uclibc-gcc -O2 -Wall hello.c -o hello
$ file ./hello
./hello: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, MIPS, MIPS-II version 1 (SYSV),
dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped
$ qemu-mipsel -L /opt/brcm/hndtools-mipsel-uclibc/ ./hello
Hello world!


Why must you insist on making my life more difficult than it already is?
Why do we even bother having an -m32 flag in gcc if we're not going to
use it?
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From lemenkov at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 04:00:49 2009
From: lemenkov at gmail.com (Peter Lemenkov)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:00:49 +0400
Subject: Fwd: Broken dependencies: sems
In-Reply-To: <20090421202841.A8C1F1F81F9@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090421202841.A8C1F1F81F9@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <adf480660904212100y3f13c9fat10ae864f9a90630e@mail.gmail.com>

Hello All!

=============================================
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:  <buildsys at fedoraproject.org>
Date: 2009/4/22
Subject: Broken dependencies: sems
To: sems-owner at fedoraproject.org
?????: openssl-owner at fedoraproject.org

sems has broken dependencies in the development tree:
On ppc:
? ? ? ?sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7
On x86_64:
? ? ? ?sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
On i386:
? ? ? ?sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
On ppc64:
? ? ? ?sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
On ppc:
? ? ? ?sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
On x86_64:
? ? ? ?sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
On i386:
? ? ? ?sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
On ppc64:
? ? ? ?sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
On ppc:
? ? ? ?sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
On x86_64:
? ? ? ?sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
On i386:
? ? ? ?sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
On ppc64:
? ? ? ?sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
Please resolve this as soon as possible.

=============================================

Ok, I rebuild it for F-11 branch and even submitted it as an update
few days ago:

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/sems-1.1.0-6.fc11

Why it still not pushed to devel? Maybe I missed something?


-- 
With best regards!



From jon at fedoraunity.org  Tue Apr 21 03:34:49 2009
From: jon at fedoraunity.org (Jonathan Steffan)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:34:49 -0600
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49ED3ED9.7090102@fedoraunity.org>

James Gallagher wrote:
> Even if the image size is kept below 4.3GB for a single disk, the delta download would be welcomed by many.

Look into makedeltaiso and applydeltaiso. You end up needing the
original (previous release/target) and the delta. This is only useful if
the old ISO is left around and you want to end up with a full ISO on the
other side. The size of a delta ISO between Fedora releases might be
larger then expected. It would be interesting to see some data on this
matter.

-- 
Jonathan Steffan
daMaestro
Fedora Unity - http://fedoraunity.org/
GPG Fingerprint: 93A2 3E2F DC26 5570 3472 5B16 AD12 6CE7 0D86 AF59



From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Wed Apr 22 04:31:25 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:31:25 -0400
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <49ED3ED9.7090102@fedoraunity.org>
References: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<49ED3ED9.7090102@fedoraunity.org>
Message-ID: <49EE9D9D.6030307@bwh.harvard.edu>

Jonathan Steffan wrote:
> James Gallagher wrote:
>> Even if the image size is kept below 4.3GB for a single disk, the delta download would be welcomed by many.
> 
> Look into makedeltaiso and applydeltaiso. You end up needing the
> original (previous release/target) and the delta. This is only useful if
> the old ISO is left around and you want to end up with a full ISO on the
> other side. The size of a delta ISO between Fedora releases might be
> larger then expected. It would be interesting to see some data on this
> matter.

One can use a script such as the rawread script at

http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/coasterless.htm

to read an ISO off an optical disc.  So the original ISO(s) can be read 
off the original install media, if one has those.  Or one can just make 
a point of keeping the original ISO(s) on the HD after installing.  And 
even if the size of the deltaiso was 60% or 70% of the full ISO, it 
would still be worthwhile to many.
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From rodd at clarkson.id.au  Wed Apr 22 04:31:53 2009
From: rodd at clarkson.id.au (Rodd Clarkson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:31:53 +1000
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 17:43 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 17:16 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:45 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > > I agree, actually.  Can poorly-authenticated access to Bugzilla really 
> > > cause such a degree of havoc?
> > 
> > It can leak NDA information from Red Hat partners to non-Red Hat folks,
> > which could cause Red Hat to be sued.
> 
> So, another Red Hat issue affecting Fedora. :\ I presume the enhanced
> busybodying can't only be enforced on the accounts which can actually
> access restricted info?

Ah, I'm a little confused.

All that was requested was a change of password.  This doesn't stop Joe
Public from signing up and accessing bugzilla, and presumably doesn't
stop Joe from viewing leaky NDA's.

All it seems to do is make me have to change a password.

Surely if there are leaks using the old password, then there's still
leaks with my new password (which is actually my old password since I
went back in and changed it back).

Or am I missing something ;-]

R.


-- 
MOOSE technology
po box 6061, north croydon, vic 3136     mobile: 0403 338 731
http://www.moosetech.com.au               phone: 03 9726 9457
mailto:rodd at moosetech.com.au                fax: 03 9726 9456

"Share your knowledge.  It is a way to achieve immortality."
                                            -- The Dalai Lama
-- 
"It's a fine line between denial and faith.
 It's much better on my side"



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr 22 04:38:21 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:38:21 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>

Jesse Keating wrote:

> It can leak NDA information from Red Hat partners to non-Red Hat folks,
> which could cause Red Hat to be sued.
> 
...
 > Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!

If you're serious about your signature, RH NDAs have to be considered 
irrelevant for Fedora.









From greno at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 04:41:20 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:41:20 -0400
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit) using
 'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>

For the past couple months I've been working on finding a way to 
successfully upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) to x86_64(64-bit).  I had almost 
given up because nothing seemed to work despite dozens of different 
approaches.  Then a couple days ago I started a new set of experiments 
and now I have successfully cross-upgraded three different systems using 
this technique.  On the three machines that I used, all the configs that 
I set up were still in place after the upgrade.  The machines behaved 
normally and I have not found any sign of problems yet.  But, it would 
be difficult to see how this technique could ever be fully automated 
because it requires a certain amount of manual inspection in a number of 
places.  And it's probably something that could not be officially 
supported.  But at least it appears there may now be a technique to 
perform a successful 32-bit => 64-bit upgrade.  And for those who have 
heavily configured machines this may be worth a try.  Anyway, here's the 
technique:


======================================================================
          CROSS-UPGRADE FEDORA x86 => x86_64 USING PREUPGRADE
        (BACKUP EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU TRY IT)

         EXAMPLE: F10(x86) => RAWHIDE(x86_64)
 
PRE PREUPGRADE:
        su -                                            # do all as 'root'
        cp /etc/fstab /etc/fstab.beforeupgrade          # merge these 
after the upgrade, if necessary.
        echo "x86_64-redhat-linux" > /etc/rpm/platform  # make yum 
prefer x86_64 packages
        cd /tmp                                         # install a 
x86_64 kernel into your F10 i386 installation:
        rpm -ivh --force 
http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/releases/10/Fedora/x86_64/os/Packages/kernel-2.6.27.5-117.fc10.x86_64.rpm

PREUPGRADE:
        yum install yum-fastestmirror
        yum update yum\* rpm\*
        yum update              # update all F10
        preupgrade
        # when preupgrade finishes downloading it will ask you to reboot 
(anaconda mode is next).
        # click Yes on the anaconda architecture warning.
        # after anaconda finishes, shutdown. (may just hang at the end 
since rpmdb is confused at this point, upgrade is still good.)

POST PREUPGRADE: (perform all these actions in F10/F11 Rescue Mode in 
the chroot)
        BOOT INTO RESCUE W/DHCP NETWORKING
        chroot /mnt/sysimage

        REBUILD RPMDB
        rm -rf /var/lib/rpm/__db*
        rpm --rebuilddb

        REMOVE/REINSTALL SELINUX (SELinux gets hopelessly confused 
through all this so just remove and reinstall later)
        yum remove selinux-policy  selinux-policy-targeted  
policycoreutils-gui  setools

        UPDATE KERNEL
        yum update kernel       # update the kernel

        INSTALL AVAILABLE MATCHING x86_64 PACKAGES FOR ALL i386 'DEVEL' 
PACKAGES THEN REMOVE ALL i386 PACKAGES:
        pkgs_devel="$(rpm -qa --queryformat '%{name}\n' | sed -n 
'/devel/p')"
        test ! -z "$pkgs_devel" && yum install $pkgs_devel
        pkgs_i386="$(rpm -qa --queryformat '%{name}.%{arch}\n' | sed -n 
'/i386$/p')"
        test ! -z "$pkgs_i386" && yum remove $pkgs_i386

        INSTALL AVAILABLE MATCHING x86_64 PACKAGES FOR ALL i586 PACKAGES:
        pkgs_i586="$(rpm -qa --queryformat '%{name}.%{arch}\n' | sed -n 
'/i586$/p')"
        test ! -z "$pkgs_i586" && yum install $pkgs_i586
        NOTE ANY CONFLICTS (generally because both packages install to 
the same filepath)
                we had two packages in conflicts: mono-core and gdm
        NOW FORCE INSTALL ANY x86_64 PACKAGES IN CONFLICT (mono-core and 
gdm shown as examples only)
        rpm -ivh --force 
http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/development/x86_64/os/Packages/mono-core-2.4-17.fc11.x86_64.rpm
        rpm -ivh --force 
http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/development/x86_64/os/Packages/gdm-2.26.1-1.fc11.x86_64.rpm
        NOW RERUN INSTALL COMMAND (you should have no conflicts this time)
        test ! -z "$pkgs_i586" && yum install $pkgs_i586

        CHECK CONSISTENCY:
        yum install package-cleanup
        package-cleanup --problems      # should show no problems
        package-cleanup --dupes         # should show no dupes
        rpm -Va --nofiles --nodigests   # should show nothing
        yum update                      # should show no packages
        vi /boot/grub/grub.conf         # check your bootloader, remove 
entry for Upgrade to Rawhide/F11
        exit                            # exit chroot
        exit                            # exit Rescue Mode which reboots

        FINAL STEPS
        # now boot into your new cross-upgraded Fedora(x86) => 
Fedora(x86_64) system.
        su -                                            # do all as 'root'
        yum install selinux-policy  selinux-policy-targeted  
policycoreutils-gui  setools
        find / -name "*.rpmnew" -o -name "*.rpmsave"    # merge new 
configs; all existing configs should be working.
        rpm -qa --whatrequires boost                    # binary data: 
handle (32-bit v. 64-bit) issues in boost apps.

======================================================================


I would hope that there might be a few out there to help test this 
technique.  Please let me know if you find anything that needs updated.



Regards,
Gerry



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr 22 04:52:49 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:52:49 +0200
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <49EEA2A1.8030507@freenet.de>

Tom Lane wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com> writes:
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
>>> Actually the only reason that mysql-config is a binary and not a script
>>> is that there doesn't seem to be any other good way for it to know which
>>> word-width it's supposed to return results for. This is one of the main
>>> problems with trying to do software builds in a multilib environment.
> 
>> What is wrong with renaming the xxxxx-config binary to
>> xxxxx-config.%{arch} (or moving it to %{_libdir}) and writing a
>> platform independent shell script xxxxx-config that will call the
>> correct xxxxx-config.%{arch} file?
> 
> How is the platform independent shell script to know which arch-specific
> file to call?  (This is an actual question, not a rhetorical one.)
> AFAIK there is nothing it can look at that isn't likely to do the Wrong
> Thing from the perspective of someone trying to build software.

To be able to do so, in a perfect world, such a shell script would have 
to receive and to process the CFLAGS being used in calls to gcc.
(c.f. -print-multi-directory, -print-multi-lib, 
-print-multi-os-directory in gcc --help).

Ralf



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 05:09:30 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:09:30 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
Message-ID: <1240376970.14173.701.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:31 +1000, Rodd Clarkson wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 17:43 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 17:16 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:45 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > > > I agree, actually.  Can poorly-authenticated access to Bugzilla really 
> > > > cause such a degree of havoc?
> > > 
> > > It can leak NDA information from Red Hat partners to non-Red Hat folks,
> > > which could cause Red Hat to be sued.
> > 
> > So, another Red Hat issue affecting Fedora. :\ I presume the enhanced
> > busybodying can't only be enforced on the accounts which can actually
> > access restricted info?
> 
> Ah, I'm a little confused.
> 
> All that was requested was a change of password.  This doesn't stop Joe
> Public from signing up and accessing bugzilla, and presumably doesn't
> stop Joe from viewing leaky NDA's.
> 
> All it seems to do is make me have to change a password.

The point is that some accounts in Bugzilla have access to read special
bugs (containing NDA and CVE information), and so we have to enforce
strong security standards on all Bugzilla accounts, if my presumption
that it can't be done only for those accounts is correct.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 05:12:35 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:12:35 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
Message-ID: <1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:31 +1000, Rodd Clarkson wrote:
> Ah, I'm a little confused.
> 
> All that was requested was a change of password.  This doesn't stop Joe
> Public from signing up and accessing bugzilla, and presumably doesn't
> stop Joe from viewing leaky NDA's.
> 
> All it seems to do is make me have to change a password.
> 
> Surely if there are leaks using the old password, then there's still
> leaks with my new password (which is actually my old password since I
> went back in and changed it back).

There is a theory that changing passwords on a regular bases lessens the
risk of somebody's password being stolen and used nefariously.
Depending on the account compromised the damage increases from nuisance
to legally damaging.  

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at j2solutions.net  Wed Apr 22 05:13:10 2009
From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:13:10 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:38 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> 
> If you're serious about your signature, RH NDAs have to be considered 
> irrelevant for Fedora.
> 

They are, however there is more going on at bugzilla.redhat.com than
Fedora.

-- 
Jesse Keating RHCE      (http://jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project          (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key          (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)
identi.ca               (http://identi.ca/jkeating)
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From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net  Wed Apr 22 05:22:22 2009
From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:22:22 +0300
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <1240343151.30902.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
	<1240336971.30902.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090421185347.GA29618@victor.nirvana>
	<1240343151.30902.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090422052222.GA821@victor.nirvana>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 02:45:51PM -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 21:53 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 01:02:50PM -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > > But putting the patchlevel in somewhere isn't a bad idea. I'd go with
> > > something like this:
> > > 
> > > bash-4.0-1.pl16
> > > bash-4.0-2.pl17
> > > bash-4.0-3.pl18
> > 
> > So what would you do when upstream does consider releasing
> > bash-4.0.25.tar.gz, then again just uses patchlevels for say up to
> > bash-4.0.33.tar.gz, then goes bash-4.2.tar.gz and the story begins
> > anew?
> 
> Your description sounds like this to me:
> 
> bash-4.0.25-1
> bash-4.0.25-2.pl1
> bash-4.0.25-3.pl2
> bash-4.0.33-1
> bash-4.2-1
> bash-4.2-2.pl1
> 
> etc.

No, there is no forth part on the version, we are always talking about
the third version component. E.g. in the current version of bash,
4.0.17, the "17" is the patchlevel.

Or if you want to use bash-4.0.25-2.pl1 for bash-4.0 and the first 26
patchlevels and version it that way because there happened to be a
tarball release at 4.0.25, then the package versioning is really
borked. Which user on earth would consider adding the number after
your "pl" to the 3rd part of the version to find the true version of
the package?

> > Technically following the guidelines to the letter we would get
> > 
> > bash-4.0-3.pl18
> > ...
> > bash-4.0-4.pl24
> > bash-4.0.25-1
> > bash-4.0-1.pl26 (epoch bump!)
> > ...
> > bash-4.0-6.pl32
> > bash-4.0.33-1
> > bash-4.0-1.pl34 (again epoch bump!)
> 
> Is that what you were trying to describe? If they do this, upstream
> should be slapped with a herring for using completely senseless release
> versioning.

No, that's not what I suggest, I just outline what the blind following
of the guidelines would produce (IFF the patchlevel were NON-NUMERIC,
which it isn;t and we shouldn't suggest it is).

> How is a *human* even supposed to know that 4.0 patchlevel 26 is newer
> than 4.0.25?
> 
> In this hypothetical insanity, it would be *upstreams* fault for us
> having to use epochs, not our fault and not a fault in our guidelines.

I disagree, we are packagers, not blind. Just use bash --version on
you favourite system and then let me know how you would package this
bash. You would arrive at the conventional scheme:

bash-4.0.17-1
bash-4.0.18-1
bash-4.0.19-1
...
bash-4.0.25-1
bash-4.0.26-1
...

> > The official patches by upstream do intenionally increase the version
> > of the source and bash --version reflects that. So upstream's
> > intention is that this source conglomeration is bash-4.0.17, not
> > bash-4.0 with some patches.
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> No, upstream's intention is not clear. The tarball versioning and
> internal versioning conflict This is a case where upstream is being
> unclear and we simply need to communicate with them to sort things out.

Why is there a conflict? The original tarball had a certain
version. With every patch came a version bump. Since bash "releases"
_very_ often the patches are sometimes a one-liner. Pushing out a
whole tarball for a change of a few bytes seems like a waste of mirror
resources, so upstream just publishes the diffs. And every now and
then they republish a whole tarball. Where is the crime?

There is no difference to the kernel's diffs for version 2.6.29 to
2.6.29.1 like `patch-2.6.29.1.bz2'. Only that the kernel also releases
a whole tarball as well, there are usually more changes than a
one-liner with the kernel.

If you don't trust me, check for yourself, or ask upstream, but it is
rather crystal clear.
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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From abo at stacken.kth.se  Wed Apr 22 05:25:25 2009
From: abo at stacken.kth.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alexander_Bostr=F6m?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:25:25 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240347482.30902.118.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6e24a8e80904211337q7d312ad3p99e3b5e4619e4681@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240347482.30902.118.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EEAA45.4080609@stacken.kth.se>

Callum Lerwick skrev:

> No. This is not desirable. Forget it, it's never going to happen. Clear
> your mind. Think git, not CVS. Think distributed bug tracking.

Like so:

http://syncwith.us/

/abo



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 06:17:36 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 02:17:36 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Broken dependencies: sems
In-Reply-To: <adf480660904212100y3f13c9fat10ae864f9a90630e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090421202841.A8C1F1F81F9@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<adf480660904212100y3f13c9fat10ae864f9a90630e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240381056.28879.21.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 08:00 +0400, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
> Ok, I rebuild it for F-11 branch and even submitted it as an update
> few days ago:
> 
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/sems-1.1.0-6.fc11
> 
> Why it still not pushed to devel? Maybe I missed something?

You forgot that we're in freeze and that you need to request releng to
include it.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Wed Apr 22 06:24:30 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 02:24:30 -0400
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <49EE9D9D.6030307@bwh.harvard.edu>
References: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<49ED3ED9.7090102@fedoraunity.org> <49EE9D9D.6030307@bwh.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <49EEB81E.30308@bwh.harvard.edu>

A longer-term problem with {make,apply}deltaiso is, if Fedora N and 
Fedora (N+1) require different numbers of ISOs, or the placement of the 
packages on the respective ISOs changes, then one can't get the full 
benefit.  It won't be a problem for F11 since that's still expected to 
be just one DVD, but if F12 goes to 2 DVDs, for example, what then?
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From frankly3d at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 06:36:54 2009
From: frankly3d at gmail.com (Frank Murphy (Frankly3D))
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:36:54 +0100
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49EEBB06.4050705@gmail.com>

On 21/04/09 03:15, James Gallagher wrote:
> The problem of space on the DVD has been an issue in the last few DVD releases of Fedora, requiring the removal of previously included packages.
>

Does not Unity do an Everything spin?
Or am I in a different ballpark

Frank



From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Wed Apr 22 06:45:41 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 02:45:41 -0400
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <49EEB81E.30308@bwh.harvard.edu>
References: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<49ED3ED9.7090102@fedoraunity.org> <49EE9D9D.6030307@bwh.harvard.edu>
	<49EEB81E.30308@bwh.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <49EEBD15.1050700@bwh.harvard.edu>

Andre Robatino wrote:
> A longer-term problem with {make,apply}deltaiso is, if Fedora N and 
> Fedora (N+1) require different numbers of ISOs, or the placement of the 
> packages on the respective ISOs changes, then one can't get the full 
> benefit.  It won't be a problem for F11 since that's still expected to 
> be just one DVD, but if F12 goes to 2 DVDs, for example, what then?

One way to handle this could be to create two directories, one 
containing the input ISOs, the other the output ISOs.  Then 
{make,apply}deltaiso could take these two directories as arguments, 
instead of the names of single ISOs.  One would still have a single 
deltaiso file regardless of the number of input or output ISOs.  I 
suspect this would be a fairly simple change to the existing programs 
and could easily be implemented in time for F12.

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From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr 22 06:58:27 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:58:27 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
	<1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EEC013.1060904@freenet.de>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:31 +1000, Rodd Clarkson wrote:
>> Ah, I'm a little confused.
>>
>> All that was requested was a change of password.  This doesn't stop Joe
>> Public from signing up and accessing bugzilla, and presumably doesn't
>> stop Joe from viewing leaky NDA's.
>>
>> All it seems to do is make me have to change a password.
>>
>> Surely if there are leaks using the old password, then there's still
>> leaks with my new password (which is actually my old password since I
>> went back in and changed it back).
> 
> There is a theory that changing passwords on a regular bases lessens the
> risk of somebody's password being stolen and used nefariously.
There are studies, which state to counterprove such statements (Sorry, 
nor reference at hand).

They claim the key to password security is to use strong passwords, 
while frequently changing passwords only cause users to reuse the same 
or variations of the weak passwords they already used elsewhere.

Ralf



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr 22 07:02:49 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:02:49 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EEC119.4030304@freenet.de>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:38 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> If you're serious about your signature, RH NDAs have to be considered 
>> irrelevant for Fedora.
>>
> 
> They are,
With all due respect, if they are, your "Fedora - Freedom^2" is a 
blatant marketing hoax.

> however there is more going on at bugzilla.redhat.com than
> Fedora.
Then change this practice and free Fedora from RH private and internal 
businesses having malicious influences on Fedora.




From a.badger at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 06:58:36 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:58:36 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: [Python-Dev] PEP 383: Non-decodable Bytes in System Character
 Interfaces]
Message-ID: <49EEC01C.90808@gmail.com>

This PEP was just sent to the python-dev list as a method to go between
unicode and C byte strings in python-3.1.  It would be great to get some
more input on this as we don't want the situation to get worse than it
already is.

-Toshio

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Python-Dev] PEP 383: Non-decodable Bytes in System Character
Interfaces
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:50:22 +0200
From: "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de>
To: Python-Dev <python-dev at python.org>, Python List <python-list at python.org>

I'm proposing the following PEP for inclusion into Python 3.1.
Please comment.

Regards,
Martin

PEP: 383
Title: Non-decodable Bytes in System Character Interfaces
Version: $Revision: 71793 $
Last-Modified: $Date: 2009-04-22 08:42:06 +0200 (Mi, 22. Apr 2009) $
Author: Martin v. L?wis <martin at v.loewis.de>
Status: Draft
Type: Standards Track
Content-Type: text/x-rst
Created: 22-Apr-2009
Python-Version: 3.1
Post-History:

Abstract
========

File names, environment variables, and command line arguments are
defined as being character data in POSIX; the C APIs however allow
passing arbitrary bytes - whether these conform to a certain encoding
or not. This PEP proposes a means of dealing with such irregularities
by embedding the bytes in character strings in such a way that allows
recreation of the original byte string.

Rationale
=========

The C char type is a data type that is commonly used to represent both
character data and bytes. Certain POSIX interfaces are specified and
widely understood as operating on character data, however, the system
call interfaces make no assumption on the encoding of these data, and
pass them on as-is. With Python 3, character strings use a
Unicode-based internal representation, making it difficult to ignore
the encoding of byte strings in the same way that the C interfaces can
ignore the encoding.

On the other hand, Microsoft Windows NT has correct the original
design limitation of Unix, and made it explicit in its system
interfaces that these data (file names, environment variables, command
line arguments) are indeed character data, by providing a
Unicode-based API (keeping a C-char-based one for backwards
compatibility).

For Python 3, one proposed solution is to provide two sets of APIs: a
byte-oriented one, and a character-oriented one, where the
character-oriented one would be limited to not being able to represent
all data accurately. Unfortunately, for Windows, the situation would
be exactly the opposite: the byte-oriented interface cannot represent
all data; only the character-oriented API can. As a consequence,
libraries and applications that want to support all user data in a
cross-platform manner have to accept mish-mash of bytes and characters
exactly in the way that caused endless troubles for Python 2.x.

With this PEP, a uniform treatment of these data as characters becomes
possible. The uniformity is achieved by using specific encoding
algorithms, meaning that the data can be converted back to bytes on
POSIX systems only if the same encoding is used.

Specification
=============

On Windows, Python uses the wide character APIs to access
character-oriented APIs, allowing direct conversion of the
environmental data to Python str objects.

On POSIX systems, Python currently applies the locale's encoding to
convert the byte data to Unicode. If the locale's encoding is UTF-8,
it can represent the full set of Unicode characters, otherwise, only a
subset is representable. In the latter case, using private-use
characters to represent these bytes would be an option. For UTF-8,
doing so would create an ambiguity, as the private-use characters may
regularly occur in the input also.

To convert non-decodable bytes, a new error handler "python-escape" is
introduced, which decodes non-decodable bytes using into a private-use
character U+F01xx, which is believed to not conflict with private-use
characters that currently exist in Python codecs.

The error handler interface is extended to allow the encode error
handler to return byte strings immediately, in addition to returning
Unicode strings which then get encoded again.

If the locale's encoding is UTF-8, the file system encoding is set to
a new encoding "utf-8b". The UTF-8b codec decodes non-decodable bytes
(which must be >= 0x80) into half surrogate codes U+DC80..U+DCFF.

Discussion
==========

While providing a uniform API to non-decodable bytes, this interface
has the limitation that chosen representation only "works" if the data
get converted back to bytes with the python-escape error handler
also. Encoding the data with the locale's encoding and the (default)
strict error handler will raise an exception, encoding them with UTF-8
will produce non-sensical data.

For most applications, we assume that they eventually pass data
received from a system interface back into the same system
interfaces. For example, and application invoking os.listdir() will
likely pass the result strings back into APIs like os.stat() or
open(), which then encodes them back into their original byte
representation. Applications that need to process the original byte
strings can obtain them by encoding the character strings with the
file system encoding, passing "python-escape" as the error handler
name.

Copyright
=========

This document has been placed in the public domain.
_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/a.badger%40gmail.com


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From rayvd at bludgeon.org  Wed Apr 22 07:06:43 2009
From: rayvd at bludgeon.org (Ray Van Dolson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:06:43 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EEC013.1060904@freenet.de>
References: <2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
	<1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEC013.1060904@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20090422070643.GA7607@bludgeon.org>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 08:58:27AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:31 +1000, Rodd Clarkson wrote:
>>> Ah, I'm a little confused.
>>>
>>> All that was requested was a change of password.  This doesn't stop Joe
>>> Public from signing up and accessing bugzilla, and presumably doesn't
>>> stop Joe from viewing leaky NDA's.
>>>
>>> All it seems to do is make me have to change a password.
>>>
>>> Surely if there are leaks using the old password, then there's still
>>> leaks with my new password (which is actually my old password since I
>>> went back in and changed it back).
>>
>> There is a theory that changing passwords on a regular bases lessens the
>> risk of somebody's password being stolen and used nefariously.
> There are studies, which state to counterprove such statements (Sorry,  
> nor reference at hand).
>
> They claim the key to password security is to use strong passwords,  
> while frequently changing passwords only cause users to reuse the same  
> or variations of the weak passwords they already used elsewhere.

Enforcing frequent unique password changes results in users writing
their passwords down and storing them on their monitors, under their
keyboards, etc :)

That or a frequent need for password resets.

Ray



From benny+usenet at amorsen.dk  Wed Apr 22 07:12:42 2009
From: benny+usenet at amorsen.dk (Benny Amorsen)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:12:42 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Jesse Keating's
	message of "Tue\, 21 Apr 2009 22\:12\:35 -0700")
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
	<1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <m3hc0hw49h.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>

Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:

> There is a theory that changing passwords on a regular bases lessens the
> risk of somebody's password being stolen and used nefariously.
> Depending on the account compromised the damage increases from nuisance
> to legally damaging.  

There is a theory (which I find more credible) that changing passwords
has at best no effect, and at worst increases the risk of somebody's
password being stolen and used nefariously.

People who are forced to change passwords write them down or pick really
crappy passwords based on sequences, or both. If you give me the old
password for a random account, I am fairly sure I can give ten options
for the new password, and 4 out of 5 times one of the options will
match.

Password changes were a defense against brute forcing of the hashed
password. These days you don't allow anyone to access the hashed
password, so that isn't a worry. If someone DID get access to the
hashed password, you have lost anyway, because computers are just too
fast. The password change policy would have to be something like twice a
day.


/Benny



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Wed Apr 22 07:23:26 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:23:26 +0100
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240385006.3632.153.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 00:39 +0200, Mark wrote:
> FOSS needs a central bug tracker (by Jesse Smith)

And I want a pony?.

OpenID might help, although how hard _is_ it to register for an account
the first time you file a bug? $DEITY, what kind of attention-span do
you people have? If you can't sit still for that long, is there any
reason to believe you'll be able to file a coherent bug report?

The other thing that helps is to make bug-tracking systems work
together. We already have links to upstream bugs in our bugzilla,
although we haven't quite automated the 'push this bug, in its entirety,
to upstream bugzilla' step. We probably should.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation

? I don't really. I want _fewer_ ponies. Does anyone want to buy a pony?
  I'm thinking of putting them on ebay.... three ponies, one rider as a
  single lot. What is it with ponies? 



From tmraz at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 07:25:54 2009
From: tmraz at redhat.com (Tomas Mraz)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:25:54 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <m3hc0hw49h.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
	<1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<m3hc0hw49h.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>
Message-ID: <1240385154.3449.105.camel@vespa.frost.loc>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 09:12 +0200, Benny Amorsen wrote:
> Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> 
> > There is a theory that changing passwords on a regular bases lessens the
> > risk of somebody's password being stolen and used nefariously.
> > Depending on the account compromised the damage increases from nuisance
> > to legally damaging.  
> 
> There is a theory (which I find more credible) that changing passwords
> has at best no effect, and at worst increases the risk of somebody's
> password being stolen and used nefariously.
> 
> People who are forced to change passwords write them down or pick really
> crappy passwords based on sequences, or both. If you give me the old
> password for a random account, I am fairly sure I can give ten options
> for the new password, and 4 out of 5 times one of the options will
> match.
> 
> Password changes were a defense against brute forcing of the hashed
> password. These days you don't allow anyone to access the hashed
> password, so that isn't a worry. If someone DID get access to the
> hashed password, you have lost anyway, because computers are just too
> fast. The password change policy would have to be something like twice a
> day.

Simply +1

There are methods by which you can improve/lower the risk of
long-time-ago stolen passwords but enforcing frequent password changes
is not among them.

You can for example display IP address and last login time of the user
when he logs in. You can also e-mail notifications to the account holder
about logins for example when the IP address which tries to login
changes.

Also expiration of accounts can be handled differently - for example an
account is marked as expired if it was not used for a long time and
using the expired account would send an e-mail to the account holder
requiring him to verify by visiting an unique URL that his access is
legitimate.
-- 
Tomas Mraz
No matter how far down the wrong road you've gone, turn back.
                                              Turkish proverb



From dmach at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 07:49:18 2009
From: dmach at redhat.com (Daniel Mach)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:49:18 +0200
Subject: 2009-04-21 - Fedora Test Day - Minimal platform
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904211319y71f54927g96edb1f16673aacb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>	<49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904211319y71f54927g96edb1f16673aacb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EECBFE.8080608@redhat.com>

Peter Robinson wrote:
> Is there also a tracker bug to link reported bugs against?
>
> Peter
I used FedoraServerTracker to track package splits, but those were 
mostly from @core and @base.
more info about Fedora Server SIG: 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DanHorak/ServerSIG

- daniel



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Wed Apr 22 07:53:52 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:53:52 +0100
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
	<1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240386832.3632.155.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 22:12 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:31 +1000, Rodd Clarkson wrote:
> > Ah, I'm a little confused.
> > 
> > All that was requested was a change of password.  This doesn't stop Joe
> > Public from signing up and accessing bugzilla, and presumably doesn't
> > stop Joe from viewing leaky NDA's.
> > 
> > All it seems to do is make me have to change a password.
> > 
> > Surely if there are leaks using the old password, then there's still
> > leaks with my new password (which is actually my old password since I
> > went back in and changed it back).
> 
> There is a theory that changing passwords on a regular bases lessens the
> risk of somebody's password being stolen and used nefariously.
> Depending on the account compromised the damage increases from nuisance
> to legally damaging.  

What is the lifetime of bugzilla login cookies? 

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From kraxel at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 08:36:08 2009
From: kraxel at redhat.com (Gerd Hoffmann)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:36:08 +0200
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <536433.80523.qm@web26701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <536433.80523.qm@web26701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49EED6F8.2030203@redhat.com>

On 04/22/09 00:14, James Gallagher wrote:
> Now a question for anyone: does the F11 beta release contain lots of
> debug code and if so would you expect the final dvd to have a smaller
> delta iso?

Unlikely.

> And one further point: wouldn't this be particularly useful for
> successive test releases, alphas, beta, release-candidates, since the
> deltas would be tiny.

That probably would work out much better, yes.  One could try F11-alpha 
-> F11-beta to figure.  There was the mass rebuild inbeetween though, so 
these delta size probably is higher than usual.  F11-beta -> 
F11-prerelease should give a more realistic picture.

cheers,
   Gerd



From fedora at matbooth.co.uk  Wed Apr 22 09:15:47 2009
From: fedora at matbooth.co.uk (Mat Booth)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:15:47 +0100
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit) using
	'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net> <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <9497e9990904220215m1d57f034t5e0b548b6d1a8d08@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
> For the past couple months I've been working on finding a way to
> successfully upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) to x86_64(64-bit). ?I had almost
> given up because nothing seemed to work despite dozens of different
> approaches. ?Then a couple days ago I started a new set of experiments and
> now I have successfully cross-upgraded three different systems using this
> technique. ?On the three machines that I used, all the configs that I set up
> were still in place after the upgrade. ?The machines behaved normally and I
> have not found any sign of problems yet. ?But, it would be difficult to see
> how this technique could ever be fully automated because it requires a
> certain amount of manual inspection in a number of places. ?And it's
> probably something that could not be officially supported. ?But at least it
> appears there may now be a technique to perform a successful 32-bit =>
> 64-bit upgrade. ?And for those who have heavily configured machines this may
> be worth a try. ?Anyway, here's the technique:
>

You sir, are a hero. I wanted to do exactly this once F11 is released
and was disappointed to learn it wasn't possible in an earlier thread
on this list (that I can't immediately find the link to).

I think I will give this a try (won't be until next month, though).
Worst case scenario is I just blat it away and reinstall from scratch,
which is what I was planning anyway.

-- 
Mat Booth
www.matbooth.co.uk



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 06:17:36 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 02:17:36 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Broken dependencies: sems
In-Reply-To: <adf480660904212100y3f13c9fat10ae864f9a90630e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090421202841.A8C1F1F81F9@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<adf480660904212100y3f13c9fat10ae864f9a90630e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240381056.28879.21.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 08:00 +0400, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
> Ok, I rebuild it for F-11 branch and even submitted it as an update
> few days ago:
> 
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/sems-1.1.0-6.fc11
> 
> Why it still not pushed to devel? Maybe I missed something?

You forgot that we're in freeze and that you need to request releng to
include it.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 09:16:06 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:16:06 +0800
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/22/2009 01:13 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:38 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>    
>> If you're serious about your signature, RH NDAs have to be considered
>> irrelevant for Fedora.
>>
>>      
>
> They are, however there is more going on at bugzilla.redhat.com than
> Fedora.
>
>    
I've seen the idea floated around about Fedora Project having it's own 
bug tracking setup before.  I know that's a monumental task, but FP has 
done others and the change was worth it.

For example, the original creation of Fedora Project was a great task, 
and I'm sure naysayers would have said it would have been impossible or 
unwise.  Likewise, the unification of Core & Extras was also rather 
large, and netted great results.

Fedora-specific bugs in Red Hat's bugzilla are already separated out by 
categorization, so it's theoretically possible to pull them all out into 
their own instance.  Yes, there will be growing pains during the 
transition, but I think it fits very well with the ideals of Fedora.  
It's one of the last major tie-ins explicitly to Red Hat-specific 
infrastructure (another I can think of are the mailing lists, but even 
some of those are now under fedora* domains).
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From aph at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 10:21:16 2009
From: aph at redhat.com (Andrew Haley)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:21:16 +0100
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240363875.30902.274.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240363875.30902.274.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EEEF9C.5000305@redhat.com>

Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:28 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote: 
>> I use Password Generator + Revelation under Gnome for exactly the same 
>> purpose.  I've gotten quite used to it, and I like the idea of now 
>> having secure passwords for almost all of my accounts.

That's a nice app.  In the past i've used

 uuencode foo < /dev/urandom | head

but although it leads to a good password there are a lot of weird characters
in there.

Andrew.



From mnowak at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 10:26:07 2009
From: mnowak at redhat.com (Michal Nowak)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:26:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: xarchiver needs binutils?
In-Reply-To: <552660225.225681240395952869.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <180489350.225701240395967602.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>

Hi.

When working on Minimal Platform [1] yesterday I noticed that xarchiver 
depends on binutils, the requirement is there since ~2006. 

* Tue Nov 28 2006 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.4.6-1
- Update to 0.4.6.
[...]
- Require binutils, cpio and htmlview.
[...]

I was wondering why this change happened and of course whether we 
need that dependency nowadays. I investigated a bit Debian's xarchiver 
page [2] and there's no requirement on binutils, nor its parts.

Also noticed xarchiver's able to deal with 7z archives, what do you 
think of adding "Requires: p7zip"?

Michal
--
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-04-21_Minimal_Platform
[2] http://packages.debian.org/sid/xarchiver



From pertusus at free.fr  Wed Apr 22 10:30:35 2009
From: pertusus at free.fr (Patrice Dumas)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:30:35 +0200
Subject: xarchiver needs binutils?
In-Reply-To: <180489350.225701240395967602.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <552660225.225681240395952869.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<180489350.225701240395967602.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090422103035.GB2520@free.fr>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 06:26:07AM -0400, Michal Nowak wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> When working on Minimal Platform [1] yesterday I noticed that xarchiver 
> depends on binutils, the requirement is there since ~2006. 
> 
> * Tue Nov 28 2006 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.4.6-1
> - Update to 0.4.6.
> [...]
> - Require binutils, cpio and htmlview.
> [...]
> 
> I was wondering why this change happened and of course whether we 
> need that dependency nowadays. I investigated a bit Debian's xarchiver 
> page [2] and there's no requirement on binutils, nor its parts.

A guess would be that ar is used to unarchive one format.

--
Pat



From bnocera at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 10:44:36 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:44:36 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 20:10 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 22:26 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 13:22 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 13:50 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > I'm pretty sure the interweb provides half-a-gazillion mixer type
> > applets, but the mixer applet as it were was removed from gnome-applets
> > upstream.
> 
> Which is stupid. Deprecate first, then remove only after the new code
> has gone through at least one cycle of wide release.

Thanks, love you too.

And ship two apps with that do the same thing in the desktop? What a
great way to confuse things further.

> > > Seems like yet another case of ripping out a stable solution and
> > > replacing it with a new, shiny and immature one that fails to provide
> > > similar functionality.
> > 
> > You had about a year to complain that the Volume Control feature didn't
> > include your use case, and given the 0.01% of the population using their
> > sound system like you do, I doubt it would have crossed our minds that
> > this could have been the case.
<snip>
> Which brings me to now. Fedora 11 isn't even released yet. So don't give
> me any bullshit about not being proactive about testing. Pulseaudio
> isn't the only broken crap in Fedora.

I meant the volume control feature on the Fedora wiki. It's been there
for a year. Sure you can ignore it. But then you're going to complain
when it breaks things for you.

> > >  Can I at least get a secret gconf key to do what
> > > I want? :P
> > 
> > The volume control uses PulseAudio, it doesn't use ALSA directly
> > anymore, so no, there's no secret GConf key for that.
> 
> So a PulseAudio config option then. Do I have to write the patch myself?

Probably not a PA config option either.

The volume control applet will show a mixer for input devices if an
application is recording on it. You'd just need to make the mixer think
that something is recording on that device. I'm not sure how to do that,
but Lennart might.

> And why do Pidgin alert sounds explode my speakers now? Yeah pump the
> hardware volume up to 100%, that's great... Why does Pidgin still not
> have native Pulseaudio support? I set it to use paplay because in the
> past Pidgin would leak PA connections and RAM like crazy and choke the
> machine dead any other way. This "flat volume" thing now seems to mean
> short alert tones will cause obnoxious volume glitching if they happen
> to be louder than my music.

I don't know what Pidgin uses, but spitting out alert sounds using
paplay is unlikely to work well at all. You need to set the
"PULSE_PROP_media.role=event" envvar before launching paplay. Otherwise
it thinks paplay is a normal, say, music application and will change the
volumes.

That's a good use of your patch action: port Pidgin to use libcanberra.




From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 11:05:15 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:05:15 +0100
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <81487f820904211305y4f82e4bdtb1624abed6717aac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<200904211925.40380.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<81487f820904211305y4f82e4bdtb1624abed6717aac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904221205.15612.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 21 April 2009 21:05:00 Iain Arnell wrote:
> > On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Bill Crawford wrote:
> >> Please don't make vim do yet another bunch of stat() calls at startup to
> >> look for this </whine>
>
> for me running "vim perl-test.spec", before = 271 stat() calls; after =
> 279.

Hah. That'll teach me :o)

I still think it is better to reduce the impact in cases where something won't 
be used, though, i.e. the 98% of the time I'm not editing a .spec file.

But it looks like this one is more of a drop in the ocean than I'd realised.



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Wed Apr 22 11:20:17 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:20:17 +0200
Subject: small feature request for packagekit
Message-ID: <1240399217.17772.8.camel@choeger6>

Hi,

this one is simple:

When you try to install packages from a new repo, packagekit will ask
you to verify the signing key. That's fine. But it would be even better,
if one could simply mark the fingerprint of the key to copy'n paste it
into <APPLICATION_USED_FOR_VERIFYING> (in my case google), currently the
text is not markable.
This should be a simple oneliner.

regards

christoph
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From mnowak at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 11:30:10 2009
From: mnowak at redhat.com (Michal Nowak)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:30:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: xarchiver needs binutils?
In-Reply-To: <1114247591.227701240399586957.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <2117969549.227851240399810212.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>


----- "Patrice Dumas" <pertusus at free.fr> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 06:26:07AM -0400, Michal Nowak wrote:
> > Hi.
> > 
> > When working on Minimal Platform [1] yesterday I noticed that
> xarchiver 
> > depends on binutils, the requirement is there since ~2006. 
> > 
> > * Tue Nov 28 2006 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> -
> 0.4.6-1
> > - Update to 0.4.6.
> > [...]
> > - Require binutils, cpio and htmlview.
> > [...]
> > 
> > I was wondering why this change happened and of course whether we 
> > need that dependency nowadays. I investigated a bit Debian's
> xarchiver 
> > page [2] and there's no requirement on binutils, nor its parts.
> 
> A guess would be that ar is used to unarchive one format.

Good point!

newman at dhcp-lab-124 xarchiver-0.5.2 $ grep -w ar -R -n src/*.c
src/deb.c:31:	command = g_strconcat ("ar tv ",archive->escaped_path,NULL);
src/deb.c:133:	command = g_strconcat ("ar x ",archive->escaped_path," ",names->str,NULL);
src/main.c:372:	absolute_path = g_find_program_in_path("ar");

I didn't even know xarchiver supports .deb.

I wish I can see different solution than splitting binutils, if there's
demand for getting rid of 9MB dependency from XFCE/LXDE folks.

Michal



From hughsient at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 11:29:24 2009
From: hughsient at gmail.com (Richard Hughes)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:29:24 +0100
Subject: small feature request for packagekit
In-Reply-To: <1240399217.17772.8.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240399217.17772.8.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <1240399764.3978.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 13:20 +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> When you try to install packages from a new repo, packagekit will ask
> you to verify the signing key. That's fine. But it would be even better,
> if one could simply mark the fingerprint of the key to copy'n paste it
> into <APPLICATION_USED_FOR_VERIFYING> (in my case google), currently the
> text is not markable.
> This should be a simple oneliner.

Funny you mention it... We've been discussing this dialog on the mailing
list for the last couple of days. The thread is here:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/packagekit/2009-April/004720.html
subject "This dialog sucks".

I think it's a valid use case to copy the fingerprint, so if you could
file a bug under the gnome-packagekit component I'll use it to track
pending issues. Thanks.

Richard.




From jonathan.underwood at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 11:31:22 2009
From: jonathan.underwood at gmail.com (Jonathan Underwood)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:31:22 +0100
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <1240288375.14173.672.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240265710.3101.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240269484.14173.664.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240276579.3101.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240288375.14173.672.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <645d17210904220431l56b5bd8ah2aaff5c9c1bd68a8@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/21 Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>:
>
> OK, I see what you're driving at now. But you missed one point I wrote
> on the issue of where you want the two to be different - you can just
> implement a keyword for commit messages which causes it not to go into
> the RPM changelog, viz:
>
> cvs commit -m "this commit message will go into the RPM changelog"
> cvs commit -m "SILENT: but this one won't!"
>
> pretty simple.

How do you actually automatically generate the spec file changelog
entry from the commit methods? [I've been using the make clog method,
and actively hating it].

Cheers,
J.



From jwboyer at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 11:41:34 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:41:34 -0400
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EEC119.4030304@freenet.de>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEC119.4030304@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <625fc13d0904220441t799f9a64nab447ef4be504b04@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:02 AM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:38 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>>
>>> If you're serious about your signature, RH NDAs have to be considered
>>> irrelevant for Fedora.
>>>
>>
>> They are,
>
> With all due respect, if they are, your "Fedora - Freedom^2" is a blatant
> marketing hoax.
>
>> however there is more going on at bugzilla.redhat.com than
>> Fedora.
>
> Then change this practice and free Fedora from RH private and internal
> businesses having malicious influences on Fedora.

Are you volunteering to pay for server hardware, colo bandwidth usage,
and a domain name to provide a non Red Hat sponsored bugzilla server?
Keep in mind we would probably want the history from the existing
Fedora bugs imported.  So are you volunteering to coordinate that and
admin such an instance?

josh



From the.masch at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 11:41:59 2009
From: the.masch at gmail.com (Mario Chacon)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:41:59 -0300
Subject: 2009-04-21 - Fedora Test Day - Minimal platform
In-Reply-To: <49EECBFE.8080608@redhat.com>
References: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com> 
	<49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904211319y71f54927g96edb1f16673aacb@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49EECBFE.8080608@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <93d66b780904220441r78a03af7tdbc2b0203f42e07e@mail.gmail.com>

Is it possible to install the minimal spin in a "real machine", not in a
virtual machine??

Salu2...
masch...

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:49 AM, Daniel Mach <dmach at redhat.com> wrote:

> Peter Robinson wrote:
>
>> Is there also a tracker bug to link reported bugs against?
>>
>> Peter
>>
> I used FedoraServerTracker to track package splits, but those were mostly
> from @core and @base.
> more info about Fedora Server SIG:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DanHorak/ServerSIG
>
> - daniel
>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From mhlavink at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 11:53:19 2009
From: mhlavink at redhat.com (Michal Hlavinka)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:53:19 +0200
Subject: xarchiver needs binutils?
In-Reply-To: <2117969549.227851240399810212.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <2117969549.227851240399810212.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200904221353.20263.mhlavink@redhat.com>

On Wednesday 22 April 2009 13:30:10 Michal Nowak wrote:
> ----- "Patrice Dumas" <pertusus at free.fr> wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 06:26:07AM -0400, Michal Nowak wrote:
> > > Hi.
> > >
> > > When working on Minimal Platform [1] yesterday I noticed that
> >
> > xarchiver
> >
> > > depends on binutils, the requirement is there since ~2006.
> > >
> > > * Tue Nov 28 2006 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> -
> >
> > 0.4.6-1
> >
> > > - Update to 0.4.6.
> > > [...]
> > > - Require binutils, cpio and htmlview.
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > I was wondering why this change happened and of course whether we
> > > need that dependency nowadays. I investigated a bit Debian's
> >
> > xarchiver
> >
> > > page [2] and there's no requirement on binutils, nor its parts.
> >
> > A guess would be that ar is used to unarchive one format.
>
> Good point!
>
> newman at dhcp-lab-124 xarchiver-0.5.2 $ grep -w ar -R -n src/*.c
> src/deb.c:31:	command = g_strconcat ("ar tv ",archive->escaped_path,NULL);
> src/deb.c:133:	command = g_strconcat ("ar x ",archive->escaped_path,"
> ",names->str,NULL); src/main.c:372:	absolute_path =
> g_find_program_in_path("ar");
>
> I didn't even know xarchiver supports .deb.
>
> I wish I can see different solution than splitting binutils, if there's
> demand for getting rid of 9MB dependency from XFCE/LXDE folks.
>
> Michal

busybox supports 'ar' :o)



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 11:55:34 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:55:34 +0800
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <625fc13d0904220441t799f9a64nab447ef4be504b04@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EEC119.4030304@freenet.de>
	<625fc13d0904220441t799f9a64nab447ef4be504b04@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EF05B6.9050203@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/22/2009 07:41 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:02 AM, Ralf Corsepius<rc040203 at freenet.de>  wrote:
>    
>> Jesse Keating wrote:
>>      
>>> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:38 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>>        
>>>> If you're serious about your signature, RH NDAs have to be considered
>>>> irrelevant for Fedora.
>>>>
>>>>          
>>> They are,
>>>        
>> With all due respect, if they are, your "Fedora - Freedom^2" is a blatant
>> marketing hoax.
>>
>>      
>>> however there is more going on at bugzilla.redhat.com than
>>> Fedora.
>>>        
>> Then change this practice and free Fedora from RH private and internal
>> businesses having malicious influences on Fedora.
>>      
>
> Are you volunteering to pay for server hardware, colo bandwidth usage,
> and a domain name to provide a non Red Hat sponsored bugzilla server?
> Keep in mind we would probably want the history from the existing
> Fedora bugs imported.  So are you volunteering to coordinate that and
> admin such an instance?
>
> josh
>
>    
I'm willing to front hosting for this.  I don't have any experience with 
Bugzilla, though.  I don't think we'd need a domain name, though.  
Wouldn't bugzilla.fedoraproject.org be good enough?  Subdomain are 
(usually) free!  I'm sure there are plenty of people in Fedora 
Infrastructure more than capable to guide me and others on this.



From dpquigl at tycho.nsa.gov  Wed Apr 22 12:55:48 2009
From: dpquigl at tycho.nsa.gov (David P. Quigley)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:55:48 -0400
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit)
 using 'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>  <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1240404948.16103.6.camel@moss-terrapins.epoch.ncsc.mil>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 00:41 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:

>         REMOVE/REINSTALL SELINUX (SELinux gets hopelessly confused 
> through all this so just remove and reinstall later)


I'm curious what you mean by this? Do you mean all the labeling is off?
Is there something wrong with the tools not working during this process?

Dave




From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 13:26:13 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:26:13 -0400
Subject: xarchiver needs binutils?
In-Reply-To: <20090422103035.GB2520@free.fr>
References: <552660225.225681240395952869.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<180489350.225701240395967602.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<20090422103035.GB2520@free.fr>
Message-ID: <1240406773.28649.7183.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 12:30 +0200, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 06:26:07AM -0400, Michal Nowak wrote:
> > Hi.
> > 
> > When working on Minimal Platform [1] yesterday I noticed that xarchiver 
> > depends on binutils, the requirement is there since ~2006. 
> > 
> > * Tue Nov 28 2006 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> - 0.4.6-1
> > - Update to 0.4.6.
> > [...]
> > - Require binutils, cpio and htmlview.
> > [...]
> > 
> > I was wondering why this change happened and of course whether we 
> > need that dependency nowadays. I investigated a bit Debian's xarchiver 
> > page [2] and there's no requirement on binutils, nor its parts.
> 
> A guess would be that ar is used to unarchive one format.

dpkg's container format is ar, in much the same way rpm's container
format is cpio.

- ajax
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From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr 22 13:54:18 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:54:18 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <625fc13d0904220441t799f9a64nab447ef4be504b04@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EEC119.4030304@freenet.de>
	<625fc13d0904220441t799f9a64nab447ef4be504b04@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EF218A.70605@freenet.de>

Josh Boyer wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:02 AM, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 at freenet.de> wrote:
>> Jesse Keating wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 06:38 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>>> If you're serious about your signature, RH NDAs have to be considered
>>>> irrelevant for Fedora.
>>>>
>>> They are,
>> With all due respect, if they are, your "Fedora - Freedom^2" is a blatant
>> marketing hoax.
>>
>>> however there is more going on at bugzilla.redhat.com than
>>> Fedora.
>> Then change this practice and free Fedora from RH private and internal
>> businesses having malicious influences on Fedora.
> 
> Are you volunteering to pay for server hardware, colo bandwidth usage,
> and a domain name to provide a non Red Hat sponsored bugzilla server?
No, I not have the resources, as well as I feel I already contributed 
way beyond what RH is giving back to me as a "user".

> Keep in mind we would probably want the history from the existing
> Fedora bugs imported.  So are you volunteering to coordinate that and
> admin such an instance?
Well, there always is price to pay. You have the choice between two evils.

Ralf




From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 13:58:01 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:58:01 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EEC013.1060904@freenet.de>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
	<1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEC013.1060904@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <1240408681.20726.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 08:58 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > There is a theory that changing passwords on a regular bases lessens the
> > risk of somebody's password being stolen and used nefariously.
> There are studies, which state to counterprove such statements (Sorry, 
> nor reference at hand).
> 
> They claim the key to password security is to use strong passwords, 
> while frequently changing passwords only cause users to reuse the same 
> or variations of the weak passwords they already used elsewhere.

Right, there are studies on both sides of the lines.  I'm not going to
claim either one is right, I'm just explaining the motivation behind the
new policy.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 14:01:08 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:01:08 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240386832.3632.155.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
	<1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240386832.3632.155.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <1240408868.20726.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 08:53 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > There is a theory that changing passwords on a regular bases lessens the
> > risk of somebody's password being stolen and used nefariously.
> > Depending on the account compromised the damage increases from nuisance
> > to legally damaging.  
> 
> What is the lifetime of bugzilla login cookies? 

I have no idea.  I'm not defending the actions of whomever forced the
password reset, I'm just trying to explain what I gather their
motivation was.

Arguing about it on a Fedora list isn't likely to change anything.  For
better or worse we share our bug tracking with Red Hat's bug tracking,
and will from time to time come up against things like this.  What could
be discussed here is whether or not the pains we hit here are worth the
pains we'd encounter by running our own instance of bugzilla.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From greno at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 14:32:19 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:32:19 -0400
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit) using
 'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <1240404948.16103.6.camel@moss-terrapins.epoch.ncsc.mil>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>  <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
	<1240404948.16103.6.camel@moss-terrapins.epoch.ncsc.mil>
Message-ID: <49EF2A73.9060201@verizon.net>

David P. Quigley wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 00:41 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
>
>   
>>         REMOVE/REINSTALL SELINUX (SELinux gets hopelessly confused 
>> through all this so just remove and reinstall later)
>>     
>
>
> I'm curious what you mean by this? Do you mean all the labeling is off?
> Is there something wrong with the tools not working during this process?
>
> Dave
>
>
>   
We were getting all sorts of avc denials and when we ran 'fixfiles 
relabel' it would get errors and we were not able to relabel the 
system.  So the easiest route was just to remove selinux during the 
process and reinstall it afterwards, which worked perfectly.

Regards,
Gerry



From greno at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 14:36:03 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:36:03 -0400
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit) using
 'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <9497e9990904220215m1d57f034t5e0b548b6d1a8d08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net> <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
	<9497e9990904220215m1d57f034t5e0b548b6d1a8d08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EF2B53.9020902@verizon.net>

Mat Booth wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>   
>> For the past couple months I've been working on finding a way to
>> successfully upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) to x86_64(64-bit).  I had almost
>> given up because nothing seemed to work despite dozens of different
>> approaches.  Then a couple days ago I started a new set of experiments and
>> now I have successfully cross-upgraded three different systems using this
>> technique.  On the three machines that I used, all the configs that I set up
>> were still in place after the upgrade.  The machines behaved normally and I
>> have not found any sign of problems yet.  But, it would be difficult to see
>> how this technique could ever be fully automated because it requires a
>> certain amount of manual inspection in a number of places.  And it's
>> probably something that could not be officially supported.  But at least it
>> appears there may now be a technique to perform a successful 32-bit =>
>> 64-bit upgrade.  And for those who have heavily configured machines this may
>> be worth a try.  Anyway, here's the technique:
>>
>>     
>
> You sir, are a hero. I wanted to do exactly this once F11 is released
> and was disappointed to learn it wasn't possible in an earlier thread
> on this list (that I can't immediately find the link to).
>
> I think I will give this a try (won't be until next month, though).
> Worst case scenario is I just blat it away and reinstall from scratch,
> which is what I was planning anyway.
>
>   
Exactly.  That's how we looked at.  We had nothing to lose by trying to 
do this because the alternative was a complete wipe of the system anyhow.

Regards,
Gerry



From greno at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 14:52:20 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:52:20 -0400
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit) using
 'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <49EF2B53.9020902@verizon.net>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net> <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
	<9497e9990904220215m1d57f034t5e0b548b6d1a8d08@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EF2B53.9020902@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49EF2F24.6070609@verizon.net>

Gerry Reno wrote:
> Mat Booth wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>  
>>> For the past couple months I've been working on finding a way to
>>> successfully upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) to x86_64(64-bit).  I had 
>>> almost
>>> given up because nothing seemed to work despite dozens of different
>>> approaches.  Then a couple days ago I started a new set of 
>>> experiments and
>>> now I have successfully cross-upgraded three different systems using 
>>> this
>>> technique.  On the three machines that I used, all the configs that 
>>> I set up
>>> were still in place after the upgrade.  The machines behaved 
>>> normally and I
>>> have not found any sign of problems yet.  But, it would be difficult 
>>> to see
>>> how this technique could ever be fully automated because it requires a
>>> certain amount of manual inspection in a number of places.  And it's
>>> probably something that could not be officially supported.  But at 
>>> least it
>>> appears there may now be a technique to perform a successful 32-bit =>
>>> 64-bit upgrade.  And for those who have heavily configured machines 
>>> this may
>>> be worth a try.  Anyway, here's the technique:
>>>
>>>     
>>
>> You sir, are a hero. I wanted to do exactly this once F11 is released
>> and was disappointed to learn it wasn't possible in an earlier thread
>> on this list (that I can't immediately find the link to).
>>
>> I think I will give this a try (won't be until next month, though).
>> Worst case scenario is I just blat it away and reinstall from scratch,
>> which is what I was planning anyway.
>>
>>   
> Exactly.  That's how we looked at.  We had nothing to lose by trying 
> to do this because the alternative was a complete wipe of the system 
> anyhow.
>
>
And just a little tip for Rescue Mode.  You can put the technique 
document into your shell history like this:
history -r DOCUMENT

Where DOCUMENT is the full filepath to the technique document.  That way 
you can scroll to the command you want to execute without having to type 
the whole thing in by hand.

Regards,
Gerry




From rjones at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 15:03:19 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:03:19 +0100
Subject: 2009-04-21 - Fedora Test Day - Minimal platform
In-Reply-To: <93d66b780904220441r78a03af7tdbc2b0203f42e07e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>
	<49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904211319y71f54927g96edb1f16673aacb@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EECBFE.8080608@redhat.com>
	<93d66b780904220441r78a03af7tdbc2b0203f42e07e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090422150319.GA9110@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 08:41:59AM -0300, Mario Chacon wrote:
> Is it possible to install the minimal spin in a "real machine", not in a
> virtual machine??

febootstrap ...

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines.  Tiny program with many
powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 15:11:40 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:11:40 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 17:16 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
  
> I've seen the idea floated around about Fedora Project having it's own
> bug tracking setup before.  I know that's a monumental task, but FP
> has done others and the change was worth it.

Remember that a plausible case that doesn't involve Red Hat data -
not-yet-public security issues - was subsequently cited. Even if we
split Fedora bugzilla from Red Hat bugzilla, it'll still contain
sensitive data.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 15:13:32 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:13:32 -0700
Subject: xarchiver needs binutils?
In-Reply-To: <2117969549.227851240399810212.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <2117969549.227851240399810212.JavaMail.root@zmail04.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240413212.14173.709.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 07:30 -0400, Michal Nowak wrote:

> > > I was wondering why this change happened and of course whether we 
> > > need that dependency nowadays. I investigated a bit Debian's
> > xarchiver 
> > > page [2] and there's no requirement on binutils, nor its parts.
> > 
> > A guess would be that ar is used to unarchive one format.
> 
> Good point!
> 
> newman at dhcp-lab-124 xarchiver-0.5.2 $ grep -w ar -R -n src/*.c
> src/deb.c:31:	command = g_strconcat ("ar tv ",archive->escaped_path,NULL);
> src/deb.c:133:	command = g_strconcat ("ar x ",archive->escaped_path," ",names->str,NULL);
> src/main.c:372:	absolute_path = g_find_program_in_path("ar");
> 
> I didn't even know xarchiver supports .deb.
> 
> I wish I can see different solution than splitting binutils, if there's
> demand for getting rid of 9MB dependency from XFCE/LXDE folks.

This is an ideal case for the use of soft dependencies, of course...
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 15:19:31 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:19:31 -0600
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240408681.20726.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net> <49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
	<1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEC013.1060904@freenet.de>
	<1240408681.20726.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904220819n59d7a52ao62187d04f1d26ca1@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> Right, there are studies on both sides of the lines. ?I'm not going to
> claim either one is right, I'm just explaining the motivation behind the
> new policy.
>
> --
> Jesse Keating
> Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
> identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating

Those interested in the subject might wish to peruse these pages:

http://www.cerias.purdue.edu/site/blog/post/password-change-myths/
http://lopsa.org/node/295
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 15:22:21 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:22:21 +0200
Subject: Fedora 10 conflicts (was: Re: Finding file conflicts)
In-Reply-To: <1240340727.3101.52.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
	<20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>
	<20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>
	<20090421190001.GB29618@victor.nirvana>
	<1240340727.3101.52.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090422172221.532aca40@faldor.intranet>

Hmmm, the situation for Fedora 10 i386 looks quite similar to Rawhide:

Target distribution:
    fedora
    rpmfusion-free-updates
    rpmfusion-free
    updates
Reading repository metadata...
Pass 1: Potential duplicate files in metadata...
Sorting...
Pruning...
Pass 2: Examining duplicates closer...
WARNING: file mode conflict
    => /usr/bin/mpd
    => mpd-0.14.2-1.fc10.i386 mpich2-1.0.8p1-2.fc10.i386
WARNING: file mode conflict
    => /usr/bin/mpd
    => mpich2-1.0.8p1-2.fc10.i386 mpd-0.14.2-1.fc10.i386
WARNING: file mode conflict
    => /usr/lib/libbt.so
    => blackbox-devel-0.70.1-11.i386 btanks-0.8.7686-8.fc10.i386
WARNING: file mode conflict
    => /usr/lib/libbt.so
    => btanks-0.8.7686-8.fc10.i386 blackbox-devel-0.70.1-11.i386

=> plt-scheme-4.1.2-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> 1:plt-scheme-4.1.2-1.fc10.i386 in updates
  File conflict with: batik-slideshow-1.7-0.6.noarch
     /usr/bin/slideshow

=> amule-2.2.3-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> amule-2.2.3-1.fc10.i386 in rpmfusion-free-updates
  File conflict with: cas-0.13-118.fc10.noarch
     /usr/bin/cas
     /usr/share/man/man1/cas.1.gz

=> batik-1.7-0.6.src.rpm
=> batik-slideshow-1.7-0.6.noarch in updates
  File conflict with: 1:plt-scheme-4.1.2-1.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/slideshow

=> blackbox-0.70.1-11.src.rpm
=> blackbox-devel-0.70.1-11.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: btanks-0.8.7686-8.fc10.i386
     /usr/lib/libbt.so

=> btanks-0.8.7686-8.fc10.src.rpm
=> btanks-0.8.7686-8.fc10.i386 in updates
  File conflict with: blackbox-devel-0.70.1-11.i386
     /usr/lib/libbt.so

=> cas-0.13-118.fc10.src.rpm
=> cas-0.13-118.fc10.noarch in updates
  File conflict with: amule-2.2.3-1.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/cas
     /usr/share/man/man1/cas.1.gz

=> csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.src.rpm
=> csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/csound
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libbarmodel.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libcompress.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libgrain4.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libharmon.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libloscilx.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libminmax.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libmixer.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libmodal4.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libphisem.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libphysmod.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libpitch.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libpvoc.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/librtalsa.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libsfont.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstackops.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstdopcod.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstdutil.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libudprecv.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libudpsend.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libugakbari.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libvaops.so
     /usr/lib/libcsound.so.5.1

=> csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.src.rpm
=> csound-devel-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: olpcsound-devel-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386
     /usr/include/csound/CsoundFile.hpp
     /usr/include/csound/OpcodeBase.hpp
     /usr/include/csound/csdl.h
     /usr/include/csound/csound.h
     /usr/include/csound/csound.hpp
     /usr/include/csound/csoundCore.h
     /usr/include/csound/cwindow.h
     /usr/include/csound/filebuilding.h
     /usr/include/csound/pstream.h
     /usr/include/csound/pvfileio.h
     /usr/include/csound/soundio.h
     /usr/include/csound/sysdep.h
     /usr/include/csound/text.h
     /usr/include/csound/version.h

=> csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.src.rpm
=> csound-jack-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386 in fedora
  All files conflict!
  File conflict with: olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/librtjack.so

=> csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.src.rpm
=> csound-osc-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386 in fedora
  All files conflict!
  File conflict with: olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libosc.so

=> csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.src.rpm
=> csound-python-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386
     /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/_csnd.so
     /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/csnd.pyc

=> dahdi-tools-2.0.0-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> dahdi-tools-2.0.0-1.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: zaptel-utils-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.i386
     /usr/sbin/fxotune
     /usr/share/man/man8/fxotune.8.gz

=> dahdi-tools-2.0.0-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> dahdi-tools-libs-2.0.0-1.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: zaptel-lib-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.i386
     /usr/lib/libtonezone.so.1.0

=> fish-1.23.0-6.fc10.src.rpm
=> fish-1.23.0-6.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: xsel-1.2.0-4.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/xsel
     /usr/share/man/man1/xsel.1x.gz

=> foo2zjs-0.20080826-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> foo2oak-0.20080826-1.fc10.i386 in rpmfusion-free
  File conflict with: foomatic-3.0.2-70.fc10.i386
     /usr/share/foomatic/db/source/printer/HP-Color_LaserJet_1500.xml

=> foomatic-3.0.2-70.fc10.src.rpm
=> foomatic-3.0.2-70.fc10.i386 in updates
  File conflict with: foo2oak-0.20080826-1.fc10.i386
     /usr/share/foomatic/db/source/printer/HP-Color_LaserJet_1500.xml

=> freeze-2.5.0-9.fc10.src.rpm
=> freeze-2.5.0-9.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: starlab-4.4.3-3.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/freeze

=> homestead-0.95-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> homestead-sampler-0.95-1.fc10.i386 in updates
  All files conflict!
  File conflict with: hosts3d-sampler-0.97-6.fc10.i386
     /usr/sbin/hsen
     /usr/share/man/man8/hsen.8.gz

=> hosts3d-0.97-6.fc10.src.rpm
=> hosts3d-sampler-0.97-6.fc10.i386 in updates
  All files conflict!
  File conflict with: homestead-sampler-0.95-1.fc10.i386
     /usr/sbin/hsen
     /usr/share/man/man8/hsen.8.gz

=> html-xml-utils-3.7-6.fc10.src.rpm
=> html-xml-utils-3.7-6.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: normalize-0.7.7-4.fc10.i386
     /usr/share/man/man1/normalize.1.gz

=> kdeartwork-4.2.2-3.fc10.src.rpm
=> kdeartwork-wallpapers-4.2.2-3.fc10.noarch in updates
  File conflict with: kdebase-workspace-wallpapers-4.1.2-14.fc10.i386
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Colorado_Farm/metadata.desktop
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Emotion/metadata.desktop
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Golden_Ripples/metadata.desktop
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Green_Concentration/metadata.desktop
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Leafs_Labyrinth/metadata.desktop
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Skeeter_Hawk/metadata.desktop

=> kdebase-workspace-4.1.2-14.fc10.src.rpm
=> kdebase-workspace-wallpapers-4.1.2-14.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: kdeartwork-wallpapers-4.2.2-3.fc10.noarch
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Colorado_Farm/metadata.desktop
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Emotion/metadata.desktop
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Golden_Ripples/metadata.desktop
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Green_Concentration/metadata.desktop
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Leafs_Labyrinth/metadata.desktop
     /usr/share/wallpapers/Skeeter_Hawk/metadata.desktop

=> libtranslate-0.99-18.fc10.src.rpm
=> libtranslate-0.99-18.fc10.i386 in updates
  File conflict with: surfraw-1.0.7-3.fc8.noarch
     /usr/bin/translate

=> lsdvd-0.16-10.fc10.src.rpm
=> lsdvd-0.16-10.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: streamdvd-streamanalyze-0.4-8.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/lsdvd

=> mpd-0.14.2-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> mpd-0.14.2-1.fc10.i386 in rpmfusion-free-updates
  File conflict with: mpich2-1.0.8p1-2.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/mpd

=> mpich2-1.0.8p1-2.fc10.src.rpm
=> mpich2-1.0.8p1-2.fc10.i386 in updates
  File conflict with: mpd-0.14.2-1.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/mpd

=> normalize-0.7.7-4.fc10.src.rpm
=> normalize-0.7.7-4.fc10.i386 in rpmfusion-free
  File conflict with: html-xml-utils-3.7-6.fc10.i386
     /usr/share/man/man1/normalize.1.gz

=> olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.src.rpm
=> olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386 in updates
  File conflict with: csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386
     /usr/bin/csound
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libbarmodel.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libcompress.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libgrain4.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libharmon.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libloscilx.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libminmax.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libmixer.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libmodal4.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libphisem.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libphysmod.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libpitch.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libpvoc.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/librtalsa.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libsfont.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstackops.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstdopcod.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstdutil.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libudprecv.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libudpsend.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libugakbari.so
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libvaops.so
     /usr/lib/libcsound.so.5.1
  File conflict with: csound-jack-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/librtjack.so
  File conflict with: csound-osc-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386
     /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libosc.so
  File conflict with: csound-python-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386
     /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/_csnd.so
     /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/csnd.pyc

=> olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.src.rpm
=> olpcsound-devel-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386 in updates
  File conflict with: csound-devel-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386
     /usr/include/csound/CsoundFile.hpp
     /usr/include/csound/OpcodeBase.hpp
     /usr/include/csound/csdl.h
     /usr/include/csound/csound.h
     /usr/include/csound/csound.hpp
     /usr/include/csound/csoundCore.h
     /usr/include/csound/cwindow.h
     /usr/include/csound/filebuilding.h
     /usr/include/csound/pstream.h
     /usr/include/csound/pvfileio.h
     /usr/include/csound/soundio.h
     /usr/include/csound/sysdep.h
     /usr/include/csound/text.h
     /usr/include/csound/version.h

=> pssh-1.4.3-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> pssh-1.4.3-1.fc10.noarch in updates
  File conflict with: putty-0.60-3.fc9.i386
     /usr/bin/pscp

=> putty-0.60-3.fc9.src.rpm
=> putty-0.60-3.fc9.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: pssh-1.4.3-1.fc10.noarch
     /usr/bin/pscp

=> ruby-sqlite3-1.2.1-2.fc9.src.rpm
=> ruby-sqlite3-1.2.1-2.fc9.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: rubygem-sqlite3-ruby-1.2.4-1.fc10.i386
     /usr/lib/ruby/site_ruby/1.8/i386-linux/sqlite3_api.so

=> rubygem-sqlite3-ruby-1.2.4-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> rubygem-sqlite3-ruby-1.2.4-1.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: ruby-sqlite3-1.2.1-2.fc9.i386
     /usr/lib/ruby/site_ruby/1.8/i386-linux/sqlite3_api.so

=> starlab-4.4.3-3.fc10.src.rpm
=> starlab-4.4.3-3.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: freeze-2.5.0-9.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/freeze

=> streamdvd-0.4-8.fc10.src.rpm
=> streamdvd-streamanalyze-0.4-8.fc10.i386 in rpmfusion-free
  File conflict with: lsdvd-0.16-10.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/lsdvd

=> surfraw-1.0.7-3.fc8.src.rpm
=> surfraw-1.0.7-3.fc8.noarch in fedora
  File conflict with: libtranslate-0.99-18.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/translate

=> synce-hal-0.1-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> synce-hal-0.1-1.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: synce-serial-0.11-2.fc9.i386
     /usr/libexec/synce-serial-chat

=> synce-serial-0.11-2.fc9.src.rpm
=> synce-serial-0.11-2.fc9.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: synce-hal-0.1-1.fc10.i386
     /usr/libexec/synce-serial-chat

=> tetex-bytefield-1.2a-4.fc10.src.rpm
=> tetex-bytefield-1.2a-4.fc10.noarch in fedora
  File conflict with: texlive-texmf-doc-2007-26.fc10.noarch
     /usr/share/texmf/doc/latex/bytefield/bytefield.pdf
  File conflict with: texlive-texmf-latex-2007-26.fc10.noarch
     /usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/bytefield/bytefield.sty

=> tetex-perltex-1.7-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> tetex-perltex-1.7-1.fc10.noarch in fedora
  File conflict with: texlive-texmf-doc-2007-26.fc10.noarch
     /usr/share/texmf/doc/latex/perltex/perltex.pdf
  File conflict with: texlive-texmf-latex-2007-26.fc10.noarch
     /usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/perltex/perltex.sty

=> texlive-texmf-2007-26.fc10.src.rpm
=> texlive-texmf-doc-2007-26.fc10.noarch in fedora
  File conflict with: tetex-bytefield-1.2a-4.fc10.noarch
     /usr/share/texmf/doc/latex/bytefield/bytefield.pdf
  File conflict with: tetex-perltex-1.7-1.fc10.noarch
     /usr/share/texmf/doc/latex/perltex/perltex.pdf

=> texlive-texmf-2007-26.fc10.src.rpm
=> texlive-texmf-latex-2007-26.fc10.noarch in fedora
  File conflict with: tetex-bytefield-1.2a-4.fc10.noarch
     /usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/bytefield/bytefield.sty
  File conflict with: tetex-perltex-1.7-1.fc10.noarch
     /usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/perltex/perltex.sty

=> xsel-1.2.0-4.fc10.src.rpm
=> xsel-1.2.0-4.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: fish-1.23.0-6.fc10.i386
     /usr/bin/xsel
     /usr/share/man/man1/xsel.1x.gz

=> zaptel-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> zaptel-lib-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: dahdi-tools-libs-2.0.0-1.fc10.i386
     /usr/lib/libtonezone.so.1.0

=> zaptel-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.src.rpm
=> zaptel-utils-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.i386 in fedora
  File conflict with: dahdi-tools-2.0.0-1.fc10.i386
     /usr/sbin/fxotune
     /usr/share/man/man8/fxotune.8.gz

Done.



From ville.skytta at iki.fi  Wed Apr 22 15:23:03 2009
From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?iso-8859-15?q?Skytt=E4?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:23:03 +0300
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <49EE582D.1090404@gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<1240350473.3101.68.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE582D.1090404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904221823.03767.ville.skytta@iki.fi>

On Wednesday 22 April 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:

> Proposed additional paragraph:
>
> """
> Most C, C++, and Fortran programs will pick up the correct compiler
> flags from the %configure macro. If your program does not use
> %configure [...]

I would make this less %configure centric, maybe something like:

... correct compiler flags if you use a macro that automatically sets them to 
build the package, such as %configure or %cmake (check macro contents with 
"rpm -E %somemacro" while redhat-rpm-config and the package possibly providing 
the macro in /etc/rpm/* is installed if unsure whether a macro sets them).  If 
there are no such macros that would apply to your package, the de facto 
standard is that ...

> make CFLAGS=%{optflags} all

This bit needs quotes around %{optflags}.



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 15:26:36 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:26:36 +0800
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/22/2009 11:11 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 17:16 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>
>    
>> I've seen the idea floated around about Fedora Project having it's own
>> bug tracking setup before.  I know that's a monumental task, but FP
>> has done others and the change was worth it.
>>      
>
> Remember that a plausible case that doesn't involve Red Hat data -
> not-yet-public security issues - was subsequently cited. Even if we
> split Fedora bugzilla from Red Hat bugzilla, it'll still contain
> sensitive data.
>    
Bugzilla is currently publicly accessible anyway.  How would the case 
you've mentioned above affect this?  What's hidden would remain hidden, 
right?  Maybe I'm not understanding...
-------------- next part --------------
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From maxamillion at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 15:28:12 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:28:12 -0500
Subject: 2009-04-21 - Fedora Test Day - Minimal platform
In-Reply-To: <20090422150319.GA9110@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>
	<49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904211319y71f54927g96edb1f16673aacb@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EECBFE.8080608@redhat.com>
	<93d66b780904220441r78a03af7tdbc2b0203f42e07e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090422150319.GA9110@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <f12087800904220828o587053esbdd5d985e16fc154@mail.gmail.com>

Wait, what's febootstrap?

-Adam

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Richard W.M. Jones <rjones at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 08:41:59AM -0300, Mario Chacon wrote:
>
> febootstrap ...
>
> Rich.
>
> --




-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 15:29:20 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:29:20 -0700
Subject: changelog format
In-Reply-To: <645d17210904220431l56b5bd8ah2aaff5c9c1bd68a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<1240258881.14173.649.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240265710.3101.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240269484.14173.664.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240276579.3101.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240288375.14173.672.camel@adam.local.net>
	<645d17210904220431l56b5bd8ah2aaff5c9c1bd68a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240414160.14173.725.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 12:31 +0100, Jonathan Underwood wrote:
> 2009/4/21 Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>:
> >
> > OK, I see what you're driving at now. But you missed one point I wrote
> > on the issue of where you want the two to be different - you can just
> > implement a keyword for commit messages which causes it not to go into
> > the RPM changelog, viz:
> >
> > cvs commit -m "this commit message will go into the RPM changelog"
> > cvs commit -m "SILENT: but this one won't!"
> >
> > pretty simple.
> 
> How do you actually automatically generate the spec file changelog
> entry from the commit methods? [I've been using the make clog method,
> and actively hating it].

I don't know, the Special Magic Box always did it for me =)

this is based on my experience at Mandriva - in that system, there's no
changelog section at all in the spec file as stored in SVN (MDV stores
specs and sources in an SVN server, much like Fedora uses CVS). When you
submit a package to be built, at some point, the build tools generate
the changelog entry from your commit messages for the build that
actually gets generated and sent to the mirrors.

Give me half an hour and I'll poke through the bits of the buildsystem I
still remember and see if I can find the code...

...

ah, right, it's in repsys. repsys source tarball is here:
http://svn.mandriva.com/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/packages/cooker/repsys/current/SOURCES/repsys-1.7.tar.bz2?view=log , and it's done by RepSys/log.py .
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 15:30:07 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:30:07 +0100
Subject: Fedora 10 conflicts (was: Re: Finding file conflicts)
In-Reply-To: <20090422172221.532aca40@faldor.intranet>
References: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
	<20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>
	<20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>
	<20090421190001.GB29618@victor.nirvana>
	<1240340727.3101.52.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422172221.532aca40@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904220830u6267e2edrb8d18fcf18e9176@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

> => csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.src.rpm
> => csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386 in fedora
> ?File conflict with: olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386
> ? ? /usr/bin/csound
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libbarmodel.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libcompress.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libgrain4.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libharmon.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libloscilx.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libminmax.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libmixer.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libmodal4.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libphisem.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libphysmod.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libpitch.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libpvoc.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/librtalsa.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libsfont.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstackops.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstdopcod.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstdutil.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libudprecv.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libudpsend.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libugakbari.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libvaops.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/libcsound.so.5.1
>
> => csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.src.rpm
> => csound-devel-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386 in fedora
> ?File conflict with: olpcsound-devel-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/CsoundFile.hpp
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/OpcodeBase.hpp
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/csdl.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/csound.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/csound.hpp
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/csoundCore.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/cwindow.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/filebuilding.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/pstream.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/pvfileio.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/soundio.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/sysdep.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/text.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/version.h
>
> => csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.src.rpm
> => csound-jack-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386 in fedora
> ?All files conflict!
> ?File conflict with: olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/librtjack.so
>
> => csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.src.rpm
> => csound-osc-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386 in fedora
> ?All files conflict!
> ?File conflict with: olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libosc.so
>
> => csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.src.rpm
> => csound-python-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386 in fedora
> ?File conflict with: olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386
> ? ? /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/_csnd.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/csnd.pyc


> => olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.src.rpm
> => olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386 in updates
> ?File conflict with: csound-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386
> ? ? /usr/bin/csound
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libbarmodel.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libcompress.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libgrain4.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libharmon.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libloscilx.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libminmax.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libmixer.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libmodal4.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libphisem.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libphysmod.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libpitch.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libpvoc.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/librtalsa.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libsfont.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstackops.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstdopcod.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libstdutil.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libudprecv.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libudpsend.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libugakbari.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libvaops.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/libcsound.so.5.1
> ?File conflict with: csound-jack-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/librtjack.so
> ?File conflict with: csound-osc-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386
> ? ? /usr/lib/csound/plugins/libosc.so
> ?File conflict with: csound-python-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386
> ? ? /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/_csnd.so
> ? ? /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/csnd.pyc
>
> => olpcsound-5.08.92-12.fc10.src.rpm
> => olpcsound-devel-5.08.92-12.fc10.i386 in updates
> ?File conflict with: csound-devel-5.03.0-16.fc9.i386
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/CsoundFile.hpp
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/OpcodeBase.hpp
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/csdl.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/csound.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/csound.hpp
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/csoundCore.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/cwindow.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/filebuilding.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/pstream.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/pvfileio.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/soundio.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/sysdep.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/text.h
> ? ? /usr/include/csound/version.h

The csound vs olpcsound conflict is know and has a known fix, I'm
awaiting an update on a bug from the csound package owner.


> => zaptel-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.src.rpm
> => zaptel-lib-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.i386 in fedora
> ?File conflict with: dahdi-tools-libs-2.0.0-1.fc10.i386
> ? ? /usr/lib/libtonezone.so.1.0
>
> => zaptel-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.src.rpm
> => zaptel-utils-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.i386 in fedora
> ?File conflict with: dahdi-tools-2.0.0-1.fc10.i386
> ? ? /usr/sbin/fxotune
> ? ? /usr/share/man/man8/fxotune.8.gz

I believe one obsoletes the other so even though they conflict one
will be replaced by the other as part of the upgrade process. I
presume in the case something would need to be untagged to get rid of
the old one but I don't think it would never disappear from the
original repo.

Peter

Peter



From gary at mlbassoc.com  Wed Apr 22 15:32:23 2009
From: gary at mlbassoc.com (Gary Thomas)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:32:23 -0600
Subject: 2009-04-21 - Fedora Test Day - Minimal platform
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904220828o587053esbdd5d985e16fc154@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>	<49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>	<5256d0b0904211319y71f54927g96edb1f16673aacb@mail.gmail.com>	<49EECBFE.8080608@redhat.com>	<93d66b780904220441r78a03af7tdbc2b0203f42e07e@mail.gmail.com>	<20090422150319.GA9110@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<f12087800904220828o587053esbdd5d985e16fc154@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EF3887.3070508@mlbassoc.com>

Adam Miller wrote:
> Wait, what's febootstrap?

Google is your friend :-)  The top hit brings:

  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/febootstrap/

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
Gary Thomas                 |  Consulting for the
MLB Associates              |    Embedded world
------------------------------------------------------------



From emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr  Wed Apr 22 15:34:37 2009
From: emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr (Emmanuel Seyman)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:34:37 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
References: <f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <20090422153437.GA25607@orient.maison.lan>

* Basil Mohamed Gohar [22/04/2009 17:28] :
>
> Bugzilla is currently publicly accessible anyway.  How would the case  
> you've mentioned above affect this?  What's hidden would remain hidden,  
> right?  Maybe I'm not understanding...

The Bugzilla used by Fedora contains sensitive information (i.e.,
restricted to certain accounts). Thus, we need strong passwords
on the accounts.

Emmanuel



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 15:35:35 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:35:35 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1240414535.14173.726.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 23:26 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On 04/22/2009 11:11 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: 
> > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 17:16 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> >   
> >   
> > > I've seen the idea floated around about Fedora Project having it's own
> > > bug tracking setup before.  I know that's a monumental task, but FP
> > > has done others and the change was worth it.
> > >     
> > 
> > Remember that a plausible case that doesn't involve Red Hat data -
> > not-yet-public security issues - was subsequently cited. Even if we
> > split Fedora bugzilla from Red Hat bugzilla, it'll still contain
> > sensitive data.
> >   
> Bugzilla is currently publicly accessible anyway.  How would the case
> you've mentioned above affect this?  What's hidden would remain
> hidden, right?  Maybe I'm not understanding...

The point is that some Bugzilla accounts have access to such sensitive
information, thus we need to have a reasonably strong security policy
for Bugzilla accounts.

(Personally I agree with the argument that forcing people to change
passwords and not allowing passwords to be re-used doesn't really aid
security, though).
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 15:40:25 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:40:25 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> 
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org> 
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us> 
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com> 
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:30 PM, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 18:14 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> This is only for preventing file conflicts between RPMs. Honestly, as
>> I said before, I really don't understand the need of keeping different
>> arch devel packages in the same system at the same time.
>
> Why would you need to avoid conflicts if you're *not* going to install
> them both at the same time?
>
>> Just remove one and install another. You can even write a simple
>> script to do this. Create a local repo if you are worried about the
>> time loss.
>
> Why would I want to run a root command that screws with my root
> filesystem as part of my edit-compile-test cycle?
>
> $ gcc -O2 -Wall -m32 hello.c -o hello
> $ file ./hello
> ./hello: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV),
> dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not
> stripped
> $ ./hello
> Hello world!
> $ gcc -O2 -Wall -m64 hello.c -o hello
> $ file ./hello
> ./hello: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV),
> dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not
> stripped
> $ ./hello
> Hello world!
> $ i686-pc-mingw32-gcc -O2 -Wall hello.c -o hello.exe
> $ file ./hello.exe
> ./hello.exe: PE32 executable for MS Windows (console) Intel 80386 32-bit
> $ ./hello.exe
> Hello world!
> $ mipsel-uclibc-gcc -O2 -Wall hello.c -o hello
> $ file ./hello
> ./hello: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, MIPS, MIPS-II version 1 (SYSV),
> dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped
> $ qemu-mipsel -L /opt/brcm/hndtools-mipsel-uclibc/ ./hello
> Hello world!
>
>
> Why must you insist on making my life more difficult than it already is?
> Why do we even bother having an -m32 flag in gcc if we're not going to
> use it?
>

Ah, those folks who feel the need of testing their program in all
archs after every other line of coding can use an interpreter based
language. It will be less pain for all parties.

Also, you can make the arch-independent xxxxx-config script smarter,
so that whenever you pass a magic flag it will redirect you to the
correct binary. If you don't pass the magic flag it will default to
`uname -i`. When I said, "

> If you are dying for keeping different arch devel packages in the same
> system, you can write your code accordingly.

", I meant such usage.

Orcan



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 15:41:24 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:41:24 +0200
Subject: Fedora 10 conflicts (was: Re: Finding file conflicts)
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904220830u6267e2edrb8d18fcf18e9176@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
	<20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>
	<20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>
	<20090421190001.GB29618@victor.nirvana>
	<1240340727.3101.52.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422172221.532aca40@faldor.intranet>
	<5256d0b0904220830u6267e2edrb8d18fcf18e9176@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090422174124.16085694@faldor.intranet>

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:30:07 +0100, Peter wrote:

> > => zaptel-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.src.rpm
> > => zaptel-lib-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.i386 in fedora
> > ?File conflict with: dahdi-tools-libs-2.0.0-1.fc10.i386
> > ? ? /usr/lib/libtonezone.so.1.0
> >
> > => zaptel-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.src.rpm
> > => zaptel-utils-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.i386 in fedora
> > ?File conflict with: dahdi-tools-2.0.0-1.fc10.i386
> > ? ? /usr/sbin/fxotune
> > ? ? /usr/share/man/man8/fxotune.8.gz
> 
> I believe one obsoletes the other 

Then they would not be in the report.
I've mentioned that my script evaluates Obsoletes/Conflicts tags.
The pkgs don't manage to replace eachother. Also see #472357
where I had reported a typo in the "Conflicts" tag as being the
culprit.

> so even though they conflict one
> will be replaced by the other as part of the upgrade process.

$ sudo yum -y install zaptel-lib dahdi-tools-libs
[...]
Transaction Check Error:
  file /usr/lib/libtonezone.so.1.0 conflicts between attempted installs of zapte
l-lib-1.4.12.1-1.fc10.i386 and dahdi-tools-libs-2.0.0-1.fc10.i386



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 15:42:02 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:42:02 +0800
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
Message-ID: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>

Forgive me for being so bold, but it's an issue I've felt strongly about 
for quite some time now - namely, that I believe the Fedora Project 
community should be hosting our own bug/issue tracker.  From what I've 
read & heard, this issue has come up before and the decision was to stay 
with the RH Bugzilla.  This doesn't discourage me in the least, though, 
and I think that's never a reason not to try again.

After following this list for a while now, I've learned a bit about the 
culture here, so I want to level the playing field a bit (since I'm 
already being bold).  So here are the rules:

   1. Please provide constructive criticism, rather than just saying,
      "We tried and it didn't work" or "This is why this will fail". 
      Fedora is built on lots of things many others have said would be
      impossible or impractical.
   2. Please bring up consequences of a community-run issue tracker
      compared to Red Hat running it (keeping in mind point #1)
   3. Only FOSS solutions should be suggested, if someone is going to do
      that (I won't cry if we drop Bugzilla).  If anyone mentions JIRA,
      I may reach through the screen and strangle you...(I'm looking at
      you, Moodle & Zend Framework!)
   4. Keep in mind that not everyone has the same level of experience
      (This is mostly for my benefit).  Share your wisdom, but try not
      to be a jerk about it.
   5. If you think something is so obviously wrong about the idea, then
      view that more as a challenge to overcome than an insurmountable
      hurdle.  Again, see #1 above.
   6. I hold zero power to make this happen directly (except by good-ol'
      gumption, I suppose).  So, don't think that I'm trying to
      single-handedly change things.  I'm just proposing the idea.

And now, on to the advantages as I see them:

   1. Fedora SHOULD have it's own issue tracking system, just like
      Fedora SHOULD be a community project.  I mean, Fedora is either
      driven by the community or not.  I do not think this is
      detrimental to Red Hat at all, because Red Hat benefits directly
      from the success of Fedora.
   2. We would be able to tie FAS & the issue tracker together without
      too many legal problems, hopefully.
   3. Red Hat Bugzilla is SLOW.  I'm serious.  It's that big of an issue
      for me.  I hope having our own would make it "go faster".

Honestly, I feel reason #1 is sufficient, but I thought I may as well 
add a few technical points to get the ball rolling.  So, here's hoping 
this doesn't turn into a flame fest!



From wwoods at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 15:47:13 2009
From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:47:13 -0400
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1240415233.23141.5.camel@metroid.usersys.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 23:42 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> Forgive me for being so bold, but it's an issue I've felt strongly about 
> for quite some time now - namely, that I believe the Fedora Project 
> community should be hosting our own bug/issue tracker. 

This discussion is moot unless you can find someone with the manpower,
hardware, bandwidth, and expertise to maintain such a bug tracker -
24/7/365 - for the entire Fedora community.

So far we've identified *one* organization willing to do that - Red
Hat's Bugzilla team.

Unless you've got someone else who can commit to that, there's really
nothing else to discuss.

-w



From tgl at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 15:57:01 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:57:01 -0400
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker 
In-Reply-To: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org> 
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <4449.1240415821@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Basil Mohamed Gohar <abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org> writes:
> And now, on to the advantages as I see them:

It would be polite of you to at least acknowledge that there might
be DISadvantages.

The main one from my personal perspective is that I don't need an
extra bug tracker in my daily work.  Right now, Red Hat's bugzilla
is all that I need to look at to handle both RHEL and Fedora
responsibilities.  If there are two trackers involved, one or the
other is going to get looked at less frequently, and given who pays
me I'm afraid Fedora is going to lose out.

Now the above argument means nothing much if you just consider my
personal effort compared to all of Fedora, but when you consider that
it applies to every Red Hat engineer I think it becomes significant.
There are enough Red Hat people involved in Fedora that penalizing
all of us will put a noticeable drag on the project.

			regards, tom lane



From che666 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 15:57:39 2009
From: che666 at gmail.com (Rudolf Kastl)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:57:39 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240385006.3632.153.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240385006.3632.153.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <e99d27470904220857u3405e1ccn32b155948f890cf3@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/22 David Woodhouse <dwmw2 at infradead.org>:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 00:39 +0200, Mark wrote:
>> FOSS needs a central bug tracker (by Jesse Smith)
>
> And I want a pony?.
>
> OpenID might help, although how hard _is_ it to register for an account
> the first time you file a bug? $DEITY, what kind of attention-span do
> you people have? If you can't sit still for that long, is there any
> reason to believe you'll be able to file a coherent bug report?
>
> The other thing that helps is to make bug-tracking systems work
> together. We already have links to upstream bugs in our bugzilla,
> although we haven't quite automated the 'push this bug, in its entirety,
> to upstream bugzilla' step. We probably should.

that is definitely a good idea. other than that i do not believe that
a central distro bugtracker solves something really. simply because
the stuff needs to go upstream anyways. auto forwarding to upstream
though makes perfect sense to me.

kind regards,
Rudolf Kastl

>
> --
> David Woodhouse ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Open Source Technology Centre
> David.Woodhouse at intel.com ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Intel Corporation
>
> ? I don't really. I want _fewer_ ponies. Does anyone want to buy a pony?
> ?I'm thinking of putting them on ebay.... three ponies, one rider as a
> ?single lot. What is it with ponies?
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



From a.badger at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 15:54:34 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:54:34 -0700
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit) using
 'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net> <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49EF3DBA.2040500@gmail.com>

Gerry Reno wrote:
> For the past couple months I've been working on finding a way to
> successfully upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) to x86_64(64-bit).  I had almost
> given up because nothing seemed to work despite dozens of different
> approaches.  Then a couple days ago I started a new set of experiments
> and now I have successfully cross-upgraded three different systems using
> this technique.  On the three machines that I used, all the configs that
> I set up were still in place after the upgrade.  The machines behaved
> normally and I have not found any sign of problems yet.  But, it would
> be difficult to see how this technique could ever be fully automated
> because it requires a certain amount of manual inspection in a number of
> places.  And it's probably something that could not be officially
> supported.  But at least it appears there may now be a technique to
> perform a successful 32-bit => 64-bit upgrade.  And for those who have
> heavily configured machines this may be worth a try.  Anyway, here's the
> technique

Could you post this to the wiki?  It could serve much the same purpose
as the Yum Upgrade[1]_ page serves.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq

-Toshio

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From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Wed Apr 22 16:00:53 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:00:53 +0200
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <1240416053.2478.5.camel@choeger6>

Honestly, I disagree.

RedHat as a company provides a lot to the community. Think of e.g. Dan
Williams work on NM, that is used by all (including competeting) distros
end most users.

I, personally, think of using fedora as "beta testing" red hat in a way
that means: If I report a bug, eventually Red Hat can improve its
product.

The conclusion: As long as there are no real regressions in community
bugfixing, I think all those bug reports are a little price compared to
what "we" consume.

regards

christoph

ps: the slowness ... yes, I know. Somebody should really fix this...
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 16:01:02 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:01:02 +0800
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240415233.23141.5.camel@metroid.usersys.redhat.com>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240415233.23141.5.camel@metroid.usersys.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49EF3F3E.4060707@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/22/2009 11:47 PM, Will Woods wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 23:42 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>    
>> Forgive me for being so bold, but it's an issue I've felt strongly about
>> for quite some time now - namely, that I believe the Fedora Project
>> community should be hosting our own bug/issue tracker.
>>      
>
> This discussion is moot unless you can find someone with the manpower,
> hardware, bandwidth, and expertise to maintain such a bug tracker -
> 24/7/365 - for the entire Fedora community.
>
> So far we've identified *one* organization willing to do that - Red
> Hat's Bugzilla team.
>
> Unless you've got someone else who can commit to that, there's really
> nothing else to discuss.
>
> -w
Just to stick to the guidelines I made in the original post, could you 
please enlighten me as to the extent of work involved in maintaining 
Fedora's portion of Bugzilla?  For example, how many people, machines, 
TBs, & experts *maintain* Fedora's portion of Bugzilla?  These are 
legitimate questions, especially since you've posted them as a "blocker" 
to my proposal.

With that out of the way, I really would like to know how hard it is to 
maintain an issue tracker for a FOSS project as large as Fedora.  My 
initial idea is, "Not really", aside from the scale.  If that's far off, 
I' really appreciate knowing the daily challenges faced in keeping 
Bugzilla up-and-running.

Are you on the Bugzilla team?  If not, could you cajole someone from the 
team to respond?  I'd really appreciate it.  Thanks!



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 16:07:32 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:07:32 +0800
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <4449.1240415821@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org> <4449.1240415821@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <49EF40C4.6050405@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/22/2009 11:57 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Basil Mohamed Gohar<abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org>  writes:
>    
>> And now, on to the advantages as I see them:
>>      
>
> It would be polite of you to at least acknowledge that there might
> be DISadvantages.
>
> The main one from my personal perspective is that I don't need an
> extra bug tracker in my daily work.  Right now, Red Hat's bugzilla
> is all that I need to look at to handle both RHEL and Fedora
> responsibilities.  If there are two trackers involved, one or the
> other is going to get looked at less frequently, and given who pays
> me I'm afraid Fedora is going to lose out.
>
> Now the above argument means nothing much if you just consider my
> personal effort compared to all of Fedora, but when you consider that
> it applies to every Red Hat engineer I think it becomes significant.
> There are enough Red Hat people involved in Fedora that penalizing
> all of us will put a noticeable drag on the project.
>
> 			regards, tom lane
>
>    
Those are some really good points.  In the "FOSS needs a central 
bugtracker" thread, there's an idea of issue trackers communicating with 
each other.  Theoretically, this would alleviate some, if not all, of 
the work load of someone having to check two issue trackers, because if 
one can be consider upstream to the other, then the data can flow with 
the work only needing to be done in one place.

I definitely acknowledge disadvantages, but I am also definitely arguing 
this from a community standpoint.  Having said that, I did not want to 
minimize what Red Hat contributes to Fedora.  And having said *that*, 
Red Hat will benefit from anything that benefits Fedora.  Directly.

I believe a solution exists where Fedora's independence in terms of 
issue tracking is not a burden on Red Hat's contributors to it.  But I 
don't know that I have the experience to say what that solution is just 
yet.  Hence, this thread for brainstorming.  ;)



From dennis at ausil.us  Wed Apr 22 16:14:32 2009
From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:14:32 -0500
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>

On Wednesday 22 April 2009 10:42:02 am Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> Forgive me for being so bold, but it's an issue I've felt strongly about
> for quite some time now - namely, that I believe the Fedora Project
> community should be hosting our own bug/issue tracker.  From what I've
> read & heard, this issue has come up before and the decision was to stay
> with the RH Bugzilla.  This doesn't discourage me in the least, though,
> and I think that's never a reason not to try again.
>

> And now, on to the advantages as I see them:
>
>    1. Fedora SHOULD have it's own issue tracking system, just like
>       Fedora SHOULD be a community project.  I mean, Fedora is either
>       driven by the community or not.  I do not think this is
>       detrimental to Red Hat at all, because Red Hat benefits directly
>       from the success of Fedora.
>    2. We would be able to tie FAS & the issue tracker together without
>       too many legal problems, hopefully.
>    3. Red Hat Bugzilla is SLOW.  I'm serious.  It's that big of an issue
>       for me.  I hope having our own would make it "go faster".
>
> Honestly, I feel reason #1 is sufficient, but I thought I may as well
> add a few technical points to get the ball rolling.  So, here's hoping
> this doesn't turn into a flame fest!

Biggest Con is that infrastructure which already has limited resources would 
need to run it. AFAIK  we have no one with experience that could setup and run 
a bugzilla/ other bug tracking system.  this is largely the reason why we have 
not done it.   

The other reason its not been done is that we need a way to move bugs to Red 
Hat's bugzilla and move from Red Hat's bugzilla to whatever we run.  people 
misfile bugs.  they effect fedora and rhel and need cloning.  there is alot of 
extra bits needed that you seem to not have considered.  

Step 1 find people to do the work,
Step 2 do an analysis of the needed workflows.
Step 3 find hardware, bandwidth and all needed resources
Step 4 setup system, and migration plans

Just trying to point out its not as simple as you seem to think.

Dennis



From dennis at ausil.us  Wed Apr 22 16:14:51 2009
From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:14:51 -0500
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
Message-ID: <200904221114.57047.dennis@ausil.us>

On Wednesday 22 April 2009 10:42:02 am Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> Forgive me for being so bold, but it's an issue I've felt strongly about
> for quite some time now - namely, that I believe the Fedora Project
> community should be hosting our own bug/issue tracker.  From what I've
> read & heard, this issue has come up before and the decision was to stay
> with the RH Bugzilla.  This doesn't discourage me in the least, though,
> and I think that's never a reason not to try again.
>

> And now, on to the advantages as I see them:
>
>    1. Fedora SHOULD have it's own issue tracking system, just like
>       Fedora SHOULD be a community project.  I mean, Fedora is either
>       driven by the community or not.  I do not think this is
>       detrimental to Red Hat at all, because Red Hat benefits directly
>       from the success of Fedora.
>    2. We would be able to tie FAS & the issue tracker together without
>       too many legal problems, hopefully.
>    3. Red Hat Bugzilla is SLOW.  I'm serious.  It's that big of an issue
>       for me.  I hope having our own would make it "go faster".
>
> Honestly, I feel reason #1 is sufficient, but I thought I may as well
> add a few technical points to get the ball rolling.  So, here's hoping
> this doesn't turn into a flame fest!

Biggest Con is that infrastructure which already has limited resources would 
need to run it. AFAIK  we have no one with experience that could setup and run 
a bugzilla/ other bug tracking system.  this is largely the reason why we have 
not done it.   

The other reason its not been done is that we need a way to move bugs to Red 
Hat's bugzilla and move from Red Hat's bugzilla to whatever we run.  people 
misfile bugs.  they effect fedora and rhel and need cloning.  there is alot of 
extra bits needed that you seem to not have considered.  

Step 1 find people to do the work,
Step 2 do an analysis of the needed workflows.
Step 3 find hardware, bandwidth and all needed resources
Step 4 setup system, and migration plans

Just trying to point out its not as simple as you seem to think.

Dennis

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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 16:23:31 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:23:31 +0800
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>
Message-ID: <49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/23/2009 12:14 AM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
> Biggest Con is that infrastructure which already has limited resources would
> need to run it. AFAIK  we have no one with experience that could setup and run
> a bugzilla/ other bug tracking system.  this is largely the reason why we have
> not done it.
>
> The other reason its not been done is that we need a way to move bugs to Red
> Hat's bugzilla and move from Red Hat's bugzilla to whatever we run.  people
> misfile bugs.  they effect fedora and rhel and need cloning.  there is alot of
> extra bits needed that you seem to not have considered.
>
> Step 1 find people to do the work,
> Step 2 do an analysis of the needed workflows.
> Step 3 find hardware, bandwidth and all needed resources
> Step 4 setup system, and migration plans
>
> Just trying to point out its not as simple as you seem to think.
>
> Dennis
Actually, I think the Fedora Infrastructure team, from what I've 
witnessed, is more the capable of doing this.  Unless I'm totally 
clueless (which I may be), if Fedora Infrastructure undertook running an 
issue tracking system themselves, I do not think it would be the most 
complex system in the whole project.  I think they handle far more 
challenging tasks on a day-to-day basis.

I think the misfiling of bugs would be far *less* if we had separate 
issue trackers.  What are the odds a Fedora user is going to file 
something on Red Hat's Bugzilla, if they've never heard of it before (I 
can understand, during the transition, a lot of this happening).  
Likewise, who would file a bug for RHEL in Fedora's issue tracker, if 
they're completely separate websites?  Maybe I just didn't understand 
what you meant here.

I definitely didn't think it was simple.  Rather, I feel it is important 
and we should make a goal to achieve.

And everyone keeps talking about bandwidth for Bugzilla.  Am I missing 
something?  Are there huge binary files being transferred that I'm 
missing?  How many GB/day are we talking?

I believe allowing Fedora Infrastructure to run their own issue tracker 
will result in a leaner & meaning instance that will likely run better 
than Red Hat's, if only because it'll be fresher, but also because 
they'll have greater control to suit the community's needs.



From mmcgrath at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 16:26:17 2009
From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:26:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>
	<49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221125300.24058@laptop.mmcgrath.net>

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:

> On 04/23/2009 12:14 AM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
> > Biggest Con is that infrastructure which already has limited resources would
> > need to run it. AFAIK  we have no one with experience that could setup and
> > run
> > a bugzilla/ other bug tracking system.  this is largely the reason why we
> > have
> > not done it.
> >
> > The other reason its not been done is that we need a way to move bugs to Red
> > Hat's bugzilla and move from Red Hat's bugzilla to whatever we run.  people
> > misfile bugs.  they effect fedora and rhel and need cloning.  there is alot
> > of
> > extra bits needed that you seem to not have considered.
> >
> > Step 1 find people to do the work,
> > Step 2 do an analysis of the needed workflows.
> > Step 3 find hardware, bandwidth and all needed resources
> > Step 4 setup system, and migration plans
> >
> > Just trying to point out its not as simple as you seem to think.
> >
> > Dennis
> Actually, I think the Fedora Infrastructure team, from what I've witnessed, is
> more the capable of doing this.  Unless I'm totally clueless (which I may be),
> if Fedora Infrastructure undertook running an issue tracking system
> themselves, I do not think it would be the most complex system in the whole
> project.  I think they handle far more challenging tasks on a day-to-day
> basis.
>

Nothing personal but you're not in a position to make this judgement.
We've not even setup a test version populated with data about the size
that would be required for Fedora so no analysis of what we could or could
not do has been done.

	-Mike

> I think the misfiling of bugs would be far *less* if we had separate issue
> trackers.  What are the odds a Fedora user is going to file something on Red
> Hat's Bugzilla, if they've never heard of it before (I can understand, during
> the transition, a lot of this happening).  Likewise, who would file a bug for
> RHEL in Fedora's issue tracker, if they're completely separate websites?
> Maybe I just didn't understand what you meant here.
>
> I definitely didn't think it was simple.  Rather, I feel it is important and
> we should make a goal to achieve.
>
> And everyone keeps talking about bandwidth for Bugzilla.  Am I missing
> something?  Are there huge binary files being transferred that I'm missing?
> How many GB/day are we talking?
>
> I believe allowing Fedora Infrastructure to run their own issue tracker will
> result in a leaner & meaning instance that will likely run better than Red
> Hat's, if only because it'll be fresher, but also because they'll have greater
> control to suit the community's needs.
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



From mmcgrath at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 16:29:09 2009
From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:29:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker 
In-Reply-To: <4449.1240415821@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org> <4449.1240415821@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221128130.24058@laptop.mmcgrath.net>

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Tom Lane wrote:

> Basil Mohamed Gohar <abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org> writes:
> > And now, on to the advantages as I see them:
>
> It would be polite of you to at least acknowledge that there might
> be DISadvantages.
>
> The main one from my personal perspective is that I don't need an
> extra bug tracker in my daily work.  Right now, Red Hat's bugzilla
> is all that I need to look at to handle both RHEL and Fedora
> responsibilities.  If there are two trackers involved, one or the
> other is going to get looked at less frequently, and given who pays
> me I'm afraid Fedora is going to lose out.
>

As a RHEL, CentOS, and Fedora user it is also nice to have only one place
to go to file my bugs, see which ones are still open, etc.

	-Mike



From belegdol at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 16:29:36 2009
From: belegdol at gmail.com (Julian Sikorski)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:29:36 +0200
Subject: Broken dependencies: sublib
In-Reply-To: <20090422162820.D545B1F81FA@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090422162820.D545B1F81FA@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49EF45F0.9010709@gmail.com>

buildsys at fedoraproject.org pisze:
> sublib has broken dependencies in the development tree:
> On ppc64:
> 	sublib-0.9-4.fc11.ppc64 requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
> 	sublib-0.9-4.fc11.ppc64 requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0
> Please resolve this as soon as possible.
> 
> 
Wasn't mono supposed to be tagged into dist-f11?

Julian



From dennis at ausil.us  Wed Apr 22 16:33:34 2009
From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:33:34 -0500
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>
	<49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <200904221133.36482.dennis@ausil.us>

On Wednesday 22 April 2009 11:23:31 am Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On 04/23/2009 12:14 AM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
> > Biggest Con is that infrastructure which already has limited resources
> > would need to run it. AFAIK  we have no one with experience that could
> > setup and run a bugzilla/ other bug tracking system.  this is largely the
> > reason why we have not done it.
> >
> > The other reason its not been done is that we need a way to move bugs to
> > Red Hat's bugzilla and move from Red Hat's bugzilla to whatever we run. 
> > people misfile bugs.  they effect fedora and rhel and need cloning. 
> > there is alot of extra bits needed that you seem to not have considered.
> >
> > Step 1 find people to do the work,
> > Step 2 do an analysis of the needed workflows.
> > Step 3 find hardware, bandwidth and all needed resources
> > Step 4 setup system, and migration plans
> >
> > Just trying to point out its not as simple as you seem to think.
> >
> > Dennis
>
> Actually, I think the Fedora Infrastructure team, from what I've
> witnessed, is more the capable of doing this.  Unless I'm totally
> clueless (which I may be), if Fedora Infrastructure undertook running an
> issue tracking system themselves, I do not think it would be the most
> complex system in the whole project.  I think they handle far more
> challenging tasks on a day-to-day basis.
As one of the people on the infrasructure team i'm telling you we do not have 
the resources or knowledge for this.

It has taken us a long time to think about migrating mailing lists.  Which we 
are slowly doing.

> I think the misfiling of bugs would be far *less* if we had separate
> issue trackers.  What are the odds a Fedora user is going to file
> something on Red Hat's Bugzilla, if they've never heard of it before (I
> can understand, during the transition, a lot of this happening).
> Likewise, who would file a bug for RHEL in Fedora's issue tracker, if
> they're completely separate websites?  Maybe I just didn't understand
> what you meant here.
>
> I definitely didn't think it was simple.  Rather, I feel it is important
> and we should make a goal to achieve.
>
> And everyone keeps talking about bandwidth for Bugzilla.  Am I missing
> something?  Are there huge binary files being transferred that I'm
> missing?  How many GB/day are we talking?

Bandwidth doesnt just come out of the air.  all of fedoras bandwidth is 
donated by someone.  as is alot of the hardware that we have.


> I believe allowing Fedora Infrastructure to run their own issue tracker
> will result in a leaner & meaning instance that will likely run better
> than Red Hat's, if only because it'll be fresher, but also because
> they'll have greater control to suit the community's needs.

We would need to import every fedora bug from Red Hats bugzilla.  it would be 
smaller but not that much smaller.  If we dont do this we would create alot fo 
confusion. 

I suggest that you take this to the infrastructure list. fedora-devel is 
really the wrong place for this discussion.

Dennis
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From greno at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 16:33:35 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:33:35 -0400
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit) using
 'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <49EF3DBA.2040500@gmail.com>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net> <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
	<49EF3DBA.2040500@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EF46DF.7060705@verizon.net>

Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> Gerry Reno wrote:
>   
>> For the past couple months I've been working on finding a way to
>> successfully upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) to x86_64(64-bit).  I had almost
>> given up because nothing seemed to work despite dozens of different
>> approaches.  Then a couple days ago I started a new set of experiments
>> and now I have successfully cross-upgraded three different systems using
>> this technique.  On the three machines that I used, all the configs that
>> I set up were still in place after the upgrade.  The machines behaved
>> normally and I have not found any sign of problems yet.  But, it would
>> be difficult to see how this technique could ever be fully automated
>> because it requires a certain amount of manual inspection in a number of
>> places.  And it's probably something that could not be officially
>> supported.  But at least it appears there may now be a technique to
>> perform a successful 32-bit => 64-bit upgrade.  And for those who have
>> heavily configured machines this may be worth a try.  Anyway, here's the
>> technique
>>     
>
> Could you post this to the wiki?  It could serve much the same purpose
> as the Yum Upgrade[1]_ page serves.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq
>
> -Toshio
>
>   
When I have some time I'll create the wiki page for this.


Regards,
Gerry



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 16:36:28 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:36:28 +0800
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221125300.24058@laptop.mmcgrath.net>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>	<200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>	<49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221125300.24058@laptop.mmcgrath.net>
Message-ID: <49EF478C.4040004@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/23/2009 12:26 AM, Mike McGrath wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>    
>> Actually, I think the Fedora Infrastructure team, from what I've witnessed, is
>> more the capable of doing this.  Unless I'm totally clueless (which I may be),
>> if Fedora Infrastructure undertook running an issue tracking system
>> themselves, I do not think it would be the most complex system in the whole
>> project.  I think they handle far more challenging tasks on a day-to-day
>> basis.
>>
>>      
>
> Nothing personal but you're not in a position to make this judgement.
> We've not even setup a test version populated with data about the size
> that would be required for Fedora so no analysis of what we could or could
> not do has been done.
>
> 	-Mike
I know that.  I'm just a Fedora user.  This thread is exploratory, and 
I'm trying to get this kind of information out there.  I didn't mean to 
speak for the team at all, I just wanted to say I think greater problems 
have been tackled.

Is Bugzilla so hard to manage, though?  Is the data really that enormous?

Another example that comes to mind, though definitely not 
apples-to-apples, was the migration from MoinMoin to MediaWiki.  Yes, I 
realize Bugzilla does much more than a wiki does, but I witnessed a lot 
of the process of that migration, and yes, it's still ongoing, and there 
was stumbling along the way.  But the community really came together on 
that and helped-out.  I also realize that currently, Bugzilla is much 
more of a core app to both Fedora & Red Hat than the Wiki is or likely 
ever will be.  But the concept of migrating a system is not new to 
Fedora.  The key is how can we leverage the community to help with it.



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 16:37:42 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:37:42 +0800
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <200904221133.36482.dennis@ausil.us>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>	<200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>	<49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>
	<200904221133.36482.dennis@ausil.us>
Message-ID: <49EF47D6.2000508@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/23/2009 12:33 AM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
> On Wednesday 22 April 2009 11:23:31 am Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> I suggest that you take this to the infrastructure list. fedora-devel is
> really the wrong place for this discussion.
>
> Dennis
>    
That may be a good idea.



From mrmazda at ij.net  Wed Apr 22 16:48:48 2009
From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:48:48 -0400
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240414535.14173.726.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240414535.14173.726.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49EF4A70.8030804@ij.net>

On 2009/04/22 08:35 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed:

> The point is that some Bugzilla accounts have access to such sensitive
> information, thus we need to have a reasonably strong security policy
> for Bugzilla accounts.

I don't understand. AFAIK, anyone who asks can receive an account. As a
consequence, the only real point of a password on an ordinary account is to
ensure a particular account remains associated with and used by only one person.

OTOH, sensitive information needs protection from anyone in a position to
divulge without potential for recompense. Thus access to protected
information should be limited to non-ordinary accounts, and only those
non-ordinary accounts should need more than nominal security, if any security
at all.

What am I missing?
-- 
"He who works his land will have abundant food, but the
one who chases fantasies will have his fill of poverty."
				Proverbs 28:19 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/



From a.badger at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 16:44:26 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:44:26 -0700
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <200904221823.03767.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>	<1240350473.3101.68.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EE582D.1090404@gmail.com>
	<200904221823.03767.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <49EF496A.9040207@gmail.com>

Ville Skytt? wrote:
> On Wednesday 22 April 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> 
>> Proposed additional paragraph:
>>
>> """
>> Most C, C++, and Fortran programs will pick up the correct compiler
>> flags from the %configure macro. If your program does not use
>> %configure [...]
> 
> I would make this less %configure centric, maybe something like:
> 
> ... correct compiler flags if you use a macro that automatically sets them to 
> build the package, such as %configure or %cmake (check macro contents with 
> "rpm -E %somemacro" while redhat-rpm-config and the package possibly providing 
> the macro in /etc/rpm/* is installed if unsure whether a macro sets them).  If 
> there are no such macros that would apply to your package, the de facto 
> standard is that ...
> 
Thanks!  Added with a little minor rewording:

... (If you're unsure whether a macro sets the flags, install
redhat-rpm-config and the package that provides the macro in /etc/rpm/*.
Then run "rpm -E %somemacro") ...

>> make CFLAGS=%{optflags} all
> 
> This bit needs quotes around %{optflags}.
> 
Fixed.  Thanks for catching this.

The draft is now on the wiki:
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Compiler_Flags_(draft)

-Toshio

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From tgl at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 16:49:56 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:49:56 -0400
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker 
In-Reply-To: <200904221133.36482.dennis@ausil.us> 
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>
	<49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>
	<200904221133.36482.dennis@ausil.us>
Message-ID: <5661.1240418996@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> writes:
> On Wednesday 22 April 2009 11:23:31 am Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>> I believe allowing Fedora Infrastructure to run their own issue tracker
>> will result in a leaner & meaning instance that will likely run better
>> than Red Hat's, if only because it'll be fresher, but also because
>> they'll have greater control to suit the community's needs.

> We would need to import every fedora bug from Red Hats bugzilla.  it
> would be smaller but not that much smaller.  If we dont do this we
> would create alot fo confusion.

Bear in mind that database performance tends to scale about as log(N),
assuming that the DB is properly set up and maintained.  Even if a
Fedora-only DB instance were a factor of 10 smaller than the current
RHEL+Fedora instance (which I suspect is an optimistic estimate), there
would not be that much change in perceived response times.

Red Hat's bugzilla does seem to be tremendously slow at times.  As best
I've been able to tell, though, most of the slowness that I see comes
from network delays and not the database proper.  Redesigning the HTML
it puts out (to not require so many network round-trips to display a
page) might do far more for us than any amount of database fiddling.

			regards, tom lane



From mmcgrath at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 16:51:20 2009
From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:51:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <49EF478C.4040004@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>
	<49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221125300.24058@laptop.mmcgrath.net>
	<49EF478C.4040004@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221149380.24058@laptop.mmcgrath.net>

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:

> On 04/23/2009 12:26 AM, Mike McGrath wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> >
> > > Actually, I think the Fedora Infrastructure team, from what I've
> > > witnessed, is
> > > more the capable of doing this.  Unless I'm totally clueless (which I may
> > > be),
> > > if Fedora Infrastructure undertook running an issue tracking system
> > > themselves, I do not think it would be the most complex system in the
> > > whole
> > > project.  I think they handle far more challenging tasks on a day-to-day
> > > basis.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Nothing personal but you're not in a position to make this judgement.
> > We've not even setup a test version populated with data about the size
> > that would be required for Fedora so no analysis of what we could or could
> > not do has been done.
> >
> > 	-Mike
> I know that.  I'm just a Fedora user.  This thread is exploratory, and I'm
> trying to get this kind of information out there.  I didn't mean to speak for
> the team at all, I just wanted to say I think greater problems have been
> tackled.
>
> Is Bugzilla so hard to manage, though?  Is the data really that enormous?
>

"I don't know" and "I don't know"  which is why I can't say "yes we can do
that" or "no we can't do that"

> Another example that comes to mind, though definitely not apples-to-apples,
> was the migration from MoinMoin to MediaWiki.  Yes, I realize Bugzilla does
> much more than a wiki does, but I witnessed a lot of the process of that
> migration, and yes, it's still ongoing, and there was stumbling along the way.
> But the community really came together on that and helped-out.  I also realize
> that currently, Bugzilla is much more of a core app to both Fedora & Red Hat
> than the Wiki is or likely ever will be.  But the concept of migrating a
> system is not new to Fedora.  The key is how can we leverage the community to
> help with it.
>

Lots of pre-work went into that to determine its feasibility.  With
bugzilla we're not even at the "could we" stage, we're still at the
"should we try" stage of which I only play a small part of.

	-Mike



From mike at cchtml.com  Wed Apr 22 16:54:29 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:54:29 -0500
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <5661.1240418996@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>	<200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>	<49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>	<200904221133.36482.dennis@ausil.us>
	<5661.1240418996@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <49EF4BC5.9020708@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Independent Fedora bug tracker
From: Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/22/2009 11:49 AM

> 
> Red Hat's bugzilla does seem to be tremendously slow at times.  As best
> I've been able to tell, though, most of the slowness that I see comes
> from network delays and not the database proper.  Redesigning the HTML
> it puts out (to not require so many network round-trips to display a
> page) might do far more for us than any amount of database fiddling.
> 
> 			regards, tom lane
> 

May I suggest that any javascript be moved to separate files and tables 
(yes I see them) use <div>s? Just on the front page I see bare 
Javascript that could be separated for a minor boost (web crawlers wont 
download separate files).



From rayvd at bludgeon.org  Wed Apr 22 16:55:08 2009
From: rayvd at bludgeon.org (Ray Van Dolson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:55:08 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EF4A70.8030804@ij.net>
References: <1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240414535.14173.726.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF4A70.8030804@ij.net>
Message-ID: <20090422165508.GA17396@bludgeon.org>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:48:48PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2009/04/22 08:35 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed:
> 
> > The point is that some Bugzilla accounts have access to such sensitive
> > information, thus we need to have a reasonably strong security policy
> > for Bugzilla accounts.
> 
> I don't understand. AFAIK, anyone who asks can receive an account. As a
> consequence, the only real point of a password on an ordinary account is to
> ensure a particular account remains associated with and used by only one person.
> 
> OTOH, sensitive information needs protection from anyone in a position to
> divulge without potential for recompense. Thus access to protected
> information should be limited to non-ordinary accounts, and only those
> non-ordinary accounts should need more than nominal security, if any security
> at all.
> 
> What am I missing?

I think the point is that some accounts are more privileged than
others.  Should these accounts have their passwords compromised, more
sensitive information could potentially be released.

Likely the password change requirements are a "due dilligence" thing
that lets the suits say "see we have such and such in place" and
decrease their liability should someone's account be compromised.

Of course, as has been mentioned, requiring these types of frequent
password changes has questional returns in security value...

Ray



From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 16:56:48 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:56:48 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EF4A70.8030804@ij.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240414535.14173.726.camel@adam.local.net> <49EF4A70.8030804@ij.net>
Message-ID: <1240419408.2924.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 12:48 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> What am I missing?

What you're missing is any such code or policy that would apply such
things as password change periods to only the "special" accounts.  The
code/policy doesn't exist, and until it does...

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 16:57:22 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:57:22 +0800
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221149380.24058@laptop.mmcgrath.net>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>	<200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>	<49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221125300.24058@laptop.mmcgrath.net>	<49EF478C.4040004@hidayahonline.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221149380.24058@laptop.mmcgrath.net>
Message-ID: <49EF4C72.1040505@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/23/2009 12:51 AM, Mike McGrath wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>
>    
>> Is Bugzilla so hard to manage, though?  Is the data really that enormous?
>>
>>      
>
> "I don't know" and "I don't know"  which is why I can't say "yes we can do
> that" or "no we can't do that"
>    
I didn't really mean those questions for you, but rather, they're 
somewhat rhetorical.  The impression I'm getting is that Bugzilla is 
some kind of mammoth app that requires a huge investment of resources to 
run & maintain.  I thought it was just an enterprise-level bug tracker.  
It's deployed quite widely.
>> Another example that comes to mind, though definitely not apples-to-apples,
>> was the migration from MoinMoin to MediaWiki.  Yes, I realize Bugzilla does
>> much more than a wiki does, but I witnessed a lot of the process of that
>> migration, and yes, it's still ongoing, and there was stumbling along the way.
>> But the community really came together on that and helped-out.  I also realize
>> that currently, Bugzilla is much more of a core app to both Fedora&  Red Hat
>> than the Wiki is or likely ever will be.  But the concept of migrating a
>> system is not new to Fedora.  The key is how can we leverage the community to
>> help with it
> Lots of pre-work went into that to determine its feasibility.  With
> bugzilla we're not even at the "could we" stage, we're still at the
> "should we try" stage of which I only play a small part of.
>
> 	-Mike
>    
It is my sincere hope that this thread will bring the "could we" stage 
just a little bit closer by getting more eyes on it and more minds 
engaged in it.



From sandeen at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 17:03:54 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:03:54 -0500
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <49EF4DFA.2010309@redhat.com>

Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
> 
>> It can leak NDA information from Red Hat partners to non-Red Hat folks,
>> which could cause Red Hat to be sued.
>>
> ...
>  > Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
> 
> If you're serious about your signature, RH NDAs have to be considered 
> irrelevant for Fedora.

That's ridiculous, IMHO.

RH NDAs *are* irrelevant for Fedora, in the sense that they are
completely separate and unrelated.  But that does not mean that Fedora
is entitled to all information Red Hat has under NDA.

Say Red Hat has Customer A, who is getting ready to launch their
internal frobnification system on March 10, 2010.  They are working with
Red Hat to resolve bugs A, B, and C and implement features D and E by
then, and details of their internal systems and testing are communicated
as part of the description of those bugs/features.  They are therefore
private, and under NDA - they do not wish to share details about their
frobnification system testing with their competitors.

That's just a hypothetical example, but what part of Fedora Freedom do
you think entitles you to see that sort of information, just because
it's in a bugzilla entry?

-Eric



From ndbecker2 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 17:04:04 2009
From: ndbecker2 at gmail.com (Neal Becker)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:04:04 -0400
Subject: security flaw in udev
Message-ID: <gsnim5$6fm$1@ger.gmane.org>

http://lwn.net/Articles/329266/rss




From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 17:06:01 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:06:01 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240355861.22352.109.camel@laptop-hp.gunduz.org>
Message-ID: <gsnipp$5l8$1@ger.gmane.org>

Devrim G?ND?Z wrote:

> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 14:46 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> devrim  classpathx-jaf
> 
> Any ideas how I can fix this?
> 
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1313341&name=build.log

Looks like this is a GNU Classpath package expecting a Classpath-based JDK
and getting built with OpenJDK, which doesn not provide the expected APIs.
Try changing the java-devel BR to an explicit java-1.5.0-gcj-devel.

        Kevin Kofler



From ndbecker2 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 17:05:05 2009
From: ndbecker2 at gmail.com (Neal Becker)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:05:05 -0400
Subject: security issues in firefox (fixed in 3.0.9)
Message-ID: <gsnio1$6fm$2@ger.gmane.org>


http://lwn.net/Articles/329565/rss




From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 17:09:03 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:09:03 +0200
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<49EE682C.50807@fi.muni.cz>
Message-ID: <gsnivg$5l8$2@ger.gmane.org>

Milos Jakubicek wrote:

> Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> rezso        libgeotiff
> 
> This one fails because of -fstack-protector...what to do -- remove
> -fstack-protector or not?
> 
> Failed build:
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1313019

Fixed link:
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1313019

>From the build.log:
> ld -shared
This package is trying to link with ld, which is not allowed, it needs to
link with gcc -shared instead. Please fix the makefile.

Note that these warnings:
> ./geo_new.c:242: warning: dereferencing type-punned pointer will break
> strict-aliasing rules 
> ./geo_print.c:492: warning: dereferencing pointer 'sptr' does break
> strict-aliasing rules 
> ./geo_write.c:135: warning: dereferencing type-punned pointer will break
> strict-aliasing rules 
also need fixing!

        Kevin Kofler



From dennisml at conversis.de  Wed Apr 22 17:12:40 2009
From: dennisml at conversis.de (Dennis J.)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:12:40 +0200
Subject: security flaw in udev
In-Reply-To: <gsnim5$6fm$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gsnim5$6fm$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49EF5008.4010501@conversis.de>

On 04/22/2009 07:04 PM, Neal Becker wrote:
> http://lwn.net/Articles/329266/rss
>
>

What is the proper procedure to update infrastructure components like udev 
or hal without rebooting the machine? udev for example doesn't have an init 
script.

Given the expected increased use of virtualization reboots of the host 
machine are going to become more and more painful. This should probably be 
taken into account when designing these component and/or packaging them.

Regards,
   Dennis



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr 22 17:14:03 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:14:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090422 changes
Message-ID: <20090422171403.44B721F81FA@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Wed Apr 22 06:15:03 UTC 2009

New package dnsjava
        Java DNS implementation
New package globus-openssl
        Globus Toolkit - Openssl Library
New package mingw32-libglade2
        MinGW Windows Libglade2 library
New package mingw32-libp11
        MingGW Windows libp11 library
New package mingw32-libxml++
        MinGW Windows C++ wrapper for the libxml2 XML parser library
New package msp430-gcc
        Cross Compiling GNU GCC targeted at msp430
New package nssbackup
        (Not so) Simple Backup Suite for desktop use
New package perl-MooseX-Storage
        A serialization framework for Moose classes
New package perl-Net-UPnP
        Perl extension for UPnP
New package php-feedcreator
        Create RSS feeds
New package pianobooster
        A MIDI file player that teaches you how to play the piano
New package systemtapguiserver
        Server for the eclipse-systemtapgui Client
Updated Packages:

ConsoleKit-0.3.0-8.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.3.0-8
- Fix a warning on login (#496636)


anaconda-11.5.0.47-1
--------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 11.5.0.47-1
- Fix adding of fifth partition in UI (#496930). (rvykydal)
- Define the fd variable before it can ever be referenced (#496930).
  (clumens)
- Fix preservation of format attrs for preexisting luks partitions. (dlehman)
- Set md member devices' uuids after creating an array. (dlehman)
- Don't try to get size for nodev and bind filesystems. (dlehman)
- Include the device path in DeviceError exceptions. (dlehman)
- Mdadm's incremental mode ignores the auto option, so don't use it.
  (dlehman)
- Use incremental mode for all md member addition during probing. (dlehman)
- Try to name existing md arrays based on their preferred minor. (dlehman)
- Reimplement mdexamine using a more easily parseable output format.
  (dlehman)
- Fix position of "--run" option to mdadm assemble. (dlehman)
- Handle passphrase prompts without a traceback in cmdline mode. (#492123)
  (dlehman)
- Fix another device vs. string problem in EFI bootloader config (#496669).
  (clumens)
- Add the device's name to mdadm.conf (#496390). (clumens)
- Show normal cursor during passphrase entry (#496534) (msivak)
- Fix traceback in cmdline mode after exception handling cleanup (#496644)
  (katzj)
- DeviceError only returns a message, not (message, device) tuple (#496343).
  (clumens)


blender-2.48a-21.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 2.48a-20
- Remove x264 from source tar ball
- Some cosmetic changes

* Mon Apr 20 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 2.48a-21
- Chamge BR mesa-libGL* into libGL*


coredumper-1.2.1-8.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Rakesh Pandit <rakesh at fedoraproject.org> - 1.2.1-8
- GDB messages changed, fixes the test suite - by Jan Kratochvil (FTBFS #496523)

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.2.1-7
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


curl-7.19.4-7.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> 7.19.4-7
- Fixed configure to respect the environment's CFLAGS and CPPFLAGS settings.


dhcp-4.1.0-19.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 12:4.1.0-18
- Make dhclient-script work with pre-configured wireless interfaces (#491157)

* Mon Apr 20 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 12:4.1.0-19
- Restrict interface names given on the dhcpd command line to length
  IFNAMSIZ or shorter (#441524)
- Change to /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts in dhclient-script before
  calling need_config or source_config (#496233)

* Thu Apr 16 2009 David Cantrell <dcantrell at redhat.com> - 12:4.1.0-17
- Fix setting default route when client IP address changes (#486512, #473658)
- 'reload' and 'try-restart' on dhcpd and dhcrelay init scripts
  will display usage information and return code 3


email2trac-0.13-5.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> - 0.13-5
- Explicitly pass RPM_OPT_FLAGS


fedora-release-notes-10.93.0-1.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Tue Apr 14 2009 John J. McDonough <jjmcd at fedoraproject.org> - 10.93.0-1
- Use publican for F11 Preview release


gwibber-1.0.1-1.287bzr.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> 1.0.1-1.287bzr
- move to template-theme-engine branch, 287


kde-settings-4.2-7.20090416svn.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2-7.20090416svn
- get rid of requires on solar-kde-theme, it should leonidas-kde-theme for F11


kdeadmin-4.2.2-4.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-4
- get rid of the dependency of system-config-printer
- drop the BR on PyKDE4, system-config-printer-libs
  it's just needed for runtime

* Mon Apr 20 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-3
- fix #496646, system-config-printer-kde doesn't start


kdebindings-4.2.2-5.fc11
------------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.2.2-5
- F11+: enable csharp on ppc64


kdelibs-4.2.2-9.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-9
- don't let plasma appear over screensaver

* Mon Apr 20 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> 4.2.2-8
- fix Plasma PopupApplet configuration interfering with weather applet (#495998)


leonidas-kde-theme-0.2.2-3.fc11
-------------------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik at redhat.com> 0.2.2-1
- wallpaper screenshot
- fixes

* Tue Apr 21 2009 Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik at redhat.com> 0.2.2-2
- tarball respin

* Tue Apr 21 2009 Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik at redhat.com> 0.2.2-3
- fix dist tag


libpciaccess-0.10.5-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 0.10.5-1
- libpciaccess 0.10.5


opal-3.6.1-2.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 3.6.1-2
- pull out ilbc codec due to legal issues


openoffice.org-3.1.0-10.2.fc11
------------------------------
* Sun Apr 19 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 1:3.1.0-10.2
- Resolves: rhbz#496280 ooo#101184 dynamically detect multiple monitors
- Resolves: rhbz#496276 ooo#98806 disable audio in presenter screen

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 1:3.1.0-9.4
- workaround rhbz#494817 
- Resolves: rhbz#495840 openoffice.org-3.1.0.ooo101145.vcl.safe.dpi.patch
- Resolves: rhbz#496197 openoffice.org-3.1.0.ooo101152.solenv.kn.patch

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 1:3.1.0-10.1
- closing in on final

* Wed Apr 15 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 1:3.1.0-9.3
- Resolves: rhbz#495609 openoffice.org-3.1.0.ooo101074.sd.bad.nothrow.patch
- Resolves: rhbz#495868 openoffice.org-3.1.0.ooo101105.sw.reorder.boundscheck.patch


python-virtinst-0.400.3-7.fc11
------------------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Cole Robinson <crobinso at redhat.com> - 0.400.3-7.fc11
- Only warn if selinux labeling appears to be wrong (bz 496340)


qemu-0.10-12.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Mark McLoughlin <markmc at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-12
- Another qcow2 image corruption fix (#496642)


shed-1.15-3.fc11
----------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Adam Miller <maxamillion [AT] gmail.com> - 1.15-3
- Patched the configure cflags

* Mon Apr 20 2009 Adam Miller <maxamillion [AT] gmail.com> - 1.15-2
- Fixed debuginfo issue, patched Makefile.in to not strip


strigi-0.6.4-4.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik at redhat.com> - 0.6.4-4
- fix crash with / char in path (#496620, kde#185551)


sublib-0.9-4.fc11
-----------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Julian Sikorski <belegdol[at]gmail[dot]com> - 0.9-4
- Disabled the ppc64 ExcludeArch now that mono is available (fixes RH #447362)


Summary:
Added Packages: 12
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 22
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.i586 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.i586 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit)
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit)
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.ppc requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.ppc requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.ppc64 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit)
	kimono-4.2.2-5.fc11.ppc64 requires libmono.so.0(VER_1)(64bit)
	kimono-4.2.2-5.fc11.ppc64 requires libmono.so.0()(64bit)
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	qyoto-devel-4.2.2-5.fc11.ppc64 requires mono-devel
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	sublib-0.9-4.fc11.ppc64 requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	sublib-0.9-4.fc11.ppc64 requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0





From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 17:15:35 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:15:35 -0500
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <20090422052222.GA821@victor.nirvana>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
	<1240336971.30902.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090421185347.GA29618@victor.nirvana>
	<1240343151.30902.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422052222.GA821@victor.nirvana>
Message-ID: <1240420535.18570.35.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 08:22 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote:
> There is no difference to the kernel's diffs for version 2.6.29 to
> 2.6.29.1 like `patch-2.6.29.1.bz2'.

.. Except for the fact the kernel patch has "2.6.29.1" right in its
name. The kernel doing it like bash would look like:

kernel-2.6.29.tar.bz2
patch-001.bz2
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From rjones at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 17:22:02 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:22:02 +0100
Subject: 2009-04-21 - Fedora Test Day - Minimal platform
In-Reply-To: <f12087800904220828o587053esbdd5d985e16fc154@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240261428.5078.362.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>
	<49ED8B6F.7030405@redhat.com>
	<5256d0b0904211319y71f54927g96edb1f16673aacb@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EECBFE.8080608@redhat.com>
	<93d66b780904220441r78a03af7tdbc2b0203f42e07e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090422150319.GA9110@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<f12087800904220828o587053esbdd5d985e16fc154@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090422172202.GA10046@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:28:12AM -0500, Adam Miller wrote:
> Wait, what's febootstrap?

It's a way to run 'yum --installroot=dir install ...'
where I've pushed enough patches and enhancements to fakeroot and
fakechroot upstream so you don't need to be root.

Also some other bits for minimizing the size, and making initramfs
images directly.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
Read my programming blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com
Fedora now supports 75 OCaml packages (the OPEN alternative to F#)
http://cocan.org/getting_started_with_ocaml_on_red_hat_and_fedora



From jwboyer at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 17:23:34 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:23:34 -0400
Subject: security flaw in udev
In-Reply-To: <gsnim5$6fm$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gsnim5$6fm$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <625fc13d0904221023w1026d091ob40c1d4ec0b610e7@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Neal Becker <ndbecker2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://lwn.net/Articles/329266/rss

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F10/FEDORA-2009-3711
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F9/FEDORA-2009-3712

josh



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 17:27:47 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:27:47 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 11:40 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> Ah, those folks who feel the need of testing their program in all
> archs after every other line of coding can use an interpreter based
> language. It will be less pain for all parties.

I'm optimizing performance critical code that runs on a wide variety of
platforms. I need to know how fast it is, on a wide variety of
platforms, as fast as possible. Otherwise I'm just sitting on my hands
being a dick on fedora-devel waiting for results. Something that doubles
speed on an Athlon 64 quite likely halves the speed on a Celeron.

... So no, python isn't going to cut it.

The point is I can easily cross compile for Win32 and MIPS on the same
x86_64 box, why does i386 have to be a pain in the ass?

Why don't we just move all x86_64 headers to /usr/include64, hack GCC to
look there instead when compiling x86_64, and be done with it? Includes
are apparently arch-specific, so it's a crock they're not split the same
way as lib.
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 17:30:44 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:30:44 +0200
Subject: development packages and multilib
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090421114108.GA29973@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <gsnk86$ci2$1@ger.gmane.org>

Richard W.M. Jones wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 03:07:40AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> (Yes, kde4-config is an ELF binary, not a script.)
> 
> This could be a barrier to cross-compilation.

As kde4-config is horribly broken for W32 anyway (the main problem is that
it doesn't understand KDE being relocated to a different path than it was
built for, which is commonly done on W32), KDE's CMake scripts avoid its
use it for W32 builds anyway, so this shouldn't matter at least for MinGW.
It could be a problem for GNU/Linux->GNU/Linux cross builds though. (I'm
not sure anybody tested those at all yet.)

There is experimental support for cross-compiling KDE with cross-MinGW:
http://techbase.kde.org/Getting_Started/Build/KDE4/Windows/Cross-Compiling

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 17:39:03 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:39:03 +0200
Subject: changelog format
References: <200904192332.41333.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<gsj79u$bei$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240296102.3049.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsnknn$ci2$2@ger.gmane.org>

Pierre-Yves wrote:
> ( I have always been told that there should be one empty line between
> two entry :) )

Yes. To clarify, there should be an empty line between each block:

* ...
- ...
- ...
---- EMPTY LINE HERE ---
* ...
- ...
- ...

There should be NO empty lines:
* ...
HERE
- ...
NOR HERE
- ...

        Kevin Kofler



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 17:41:43 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:41:43 -0500
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240408868.20726.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
	<1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240386832.3632.155.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240408868.20726.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240422103.18570.77.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 07:01 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 08:53 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > There is a theory that changing passwords on a regular bases lessens the
> > > risk of somebody's password being stolen and used nefariously.
> > > Depending on the account compromised the damage increases from nuisance
> > > to legally damaging.  
> > 
> > What is the lifetime of bugzilla login cookies? 
> 
> I have no idea.  I'm not defending the actions of whomever forced the
> password reset, I'm just trying to explain what I gather their
> motivation was.

When "getting sued" is involved, security theater is much more important
than actual security.

Stop thinking like engineers and thinking like suits and lawyers (in
suits).
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From tgl at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 17:59:56 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:59:56 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib 
In-Reply-To: <1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <7363.1240423196@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> writes:
> Why don't we just move all x86_64 headers to /usr/include64, hack GCC to
> look there instead when compiling x86_64, and be done with it?

That doesn't solve the problem.  The part of the problem that's actually
not solved today is the /usr/bin/foo-config problem.  Without a fix for
that, making it a bit easier to deal with include-file diffs isn't
worth anything.

			regards, tom lane



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 18:01:13 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:01:13 -0500
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <49EE5CAC.9070203@bwh.harvard.edu>
References: <49EE5CAC.9070203@bwh.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <1240423273.18570.100.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 19:54 -0400, Andre Robatino wrote:
> Does applydeltaiso make use of multiple cores, or just one?  I'm 
> guessing just one.  It probably doesn't need that much memory, either, 
> since it only processes one package at a time and reads/writes to disk.

If it is an IO bound operation, multicore isn't going to do you any good
and quite likely only makes things worse.

Multithreading isn't a magic performance generating pony.
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 18:12:24 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:12:24 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240344905.30902.106.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsnmm8$leh$1@ger.gmane.org>

Callum Lerwick wrote:
> Google has it right guys, the standard sucks:
> 
> http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/google-doesnt-use-openid/

No, Google is just showing that they have enough monopoly power to dictate
whatever proprietary "standard" they feel like. They're really the next M$.
They cannot be trusted. They're only "friendly" towards Free Software
insofar as it gives them a lot of software to parasite for proprietary web
apps at no cost. Just ask yourself why the Affero GPL is banned on Google
Code.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 18:20:01 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:20:01 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240385006.3632.153.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <gsnn4h$leh$2@ger.gmane.org>

David Woodhouse wrote:
> The other thing that helps is to make bug-tracking systems work
> together. We already have links to upstream bugs in our bugzilla,
> although we haven't quite automated the 'push this bug, in its entirety,
> to upstream bugzilla' step. We probably should.

But shared accounts are the easiest way to make this happen. Otherwise, how
do you make sure the original reporter is still in the loop when you
upstream the bug? (That's why at least in the KDE SIG we ask the reporters
to file upstream bugs themselves where appropriate.)

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 18:24:47 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:24:47 +0200
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
References: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<49EEBB06.4050705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gsnndf$leh$3@ger.gmane.org>

Frank Murphy (Frankly3D) wrote:
> Does not Unity do an Everything spin?

Yes. It's a huge multi-DVD spin, most of whose contents you'll never
actually install. So I don't see why you can't just download the stuff you
actually need instead.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 18:27:46 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:27:46 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsnnj2$leh$4@ger.gmane.org>

Callum Lerwick wrote:
> How do I get this behavior back?

Use xfce4-mixer or KMix (the latter is part of kdemultimedia). Or the
text-based alsamixer.

        Kevin Kofler



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 18:30:31 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:30:31 -0500
Subject: security flaw in udev
In-Reply-To: <49EF5008.4010501@conversis.de>
References: <gsnim5$6fm$1@ger.gmane.org>  <49EF5008.4010501@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <1240425031.18570.137.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:12 +0200, Dennis J. wrote:
> On 04/22/2009 07:04 PM, Neal Becker wrote:
> > http://lwn.net/Articles/329266/rss
> >
> >
> 
> What is the proper procedure to update infrastructure components like udev 
> or hal without rebooting the machine? udev for example doesn't have an init 
> script.
> 
> Given the expected increased use of virtualization reboots of the host 
> machine are going to become more and more painful. This should probably be 
> taken into account when designing these component and/or packaging them.

Uhh, actually I find virtualization makes rebooting the host easier. My
server is running CentOS 5 with its previous Debian install running in a
Xen VM, that still handles most of the services. Apparently when the
host reboots, the VM is automatically hibernated, and restored on the
next boot. The VM hardly notices anything happened at all, just a
temporary lack of network connection and CPU time... :)

The more disruptive thing is, doesn't everyone's *VM*s need to be
patched and rebooted now too? :P
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From m.a.young at durham.ac.uk  Wed Apr 22 18:32:25 2009
From: m.a.young at durham.ac.uk (M A Young)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:32:25 +0100 (BST)
Subject: security flaw in udev
In-Reply-To: <49EF5008.4010501@conversis.de>
References: <gsnim5$6fm$1@ger.gmane.org> <49EF5008.4010501@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221924001.31186@vega3.dur.ac.uk>

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Dennis J. wrote:

> What is the proper procedure to update infrastructure components like udev or 
> hal without rebooting the machine? udev for example doesn't have an init 
> script.

udev is fired off from /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit . To restart udevd, kill the 
process and run /sbin/start_udev

 	Michael Young



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 18:32:37 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:32:37 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <gsnmm8$leh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240344905.30902.106.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsnmm8$leh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240425157.18570.141.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 20:12 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > Google has it right guys, the standard sucks:
> > 
> > http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/google-doesnt-use-openid/
> 
> No, Google is just showing that they have enough monopoly power to dictate
> whatever proprietary "standard" they feel like. They're really the next M$.
> They cannot be trusted. They're only "friendly" towards Free Software
> insofar as it gives them a lot of software to parasite for proprietary web
> apps at no cost. Just ask yourself why the Affero GPL is banned on Google

That doesn't make them wrong about OpenID's UI sucking.
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 18:34:30 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:34:30 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <gsnnvo$q1v$1@ger.gmane.org>

Bastien Nocera wrote:
> You had about a year to complain that the Volume Control feature didn't
> include your use case, and given the 0.01% of the population using their
> sound system like you do, I doubt it would have crossed our minds that
> this could have been the case.

People did complain, they got told (by you and others) that it is an
intentional design feature not to show the options they need.

        Kevin Kofler



From walters at verbum.org  Wed Apr 22 18:36:27 2009
From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:36:27 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:

> Why don't we just move all x86_64 headers to /usr/include64, hack GCC to
> look there instead when compiling x86_64, and be done with it?

Because multilib is just a crutch for running old/proprietary 32 bit code.

If you're a software developer, we generally require greater
resources.  So it shouldn't be a big deal to have a few gigs to
dedicate to an i386 mock root or use virtualization.



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 18:44:19 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:44:19 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <7363.1240423196@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<7363.1240423196@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1240425859.18570.164.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 13:59 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> writes:
> > Why don't we just move all x86_64 headers to /usr/include64, hack GCC to
> > look there instead when compiling x86_64, and be done with it?
> 
> That doesn't solve the problem.  The part of the problem that's actually
> not solved today is the /usr/bin/foo-config problem.  Without a fix for
> that, making it a bit easier to deal with include-file diffs isn't
> worth anything.

The same way cross compilation identifies gcc and strip and whatnot.
Prefix it with the architecture. It just so happens autotools and
pkg-config already do this:

$ rpm -qf /usr/bin/mingw32-pkg-config
mingw32-filesystem-50-3.fc11.noarch
$ tail -n 5 /usr/bin/mingw32-pkg-config
# This is a useful command-line script through which one can use the
# macros from mingw32-macros.mingw32 cross-compilation. 

NAME="_`basename $0|tr -- - _`"
eval "`rpm --eval "%{$NAME}"`" "$@"

... Hrm, Richard went about this differently than I did. Seems rather
rpm-centric...

$ rpm --eval "%{_mingw32_pkg_config}"

  PKG_CONFIG_LIBDIR="/usr/i686-pc-mingw32/sys-root/mingw/lib/pkgconfig";
export PKG_CONFIG_LIBDIR; 
  unset PKG_CONFIG_PATH; 
  pkg-config

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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 18:44:17 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:44:17 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <gsnoi1$rk6$1@ger.gmane.org>

Bastien Nocera wrote:
> And ship two apps with that do the same thing in the desktop? What a
> great way to confuse things further.

Why not ship one app which uses PulseAudio to set PulseAudio volumes and
ALSA to set ALSA volumes? Hide the ALSA settings by default if you think
users will get confused by them, but provide a way to enable them. (Of
course it's too late for F11, but still, that's the right way to do it.)

        Kevin Kofler



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 18:47:10 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:47:10 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:36 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
> 
> > Why don't we just move all x86_64 headers to /usr/include64, hack GCC to
> > look there instead when compiling x86_64, and be done with it?
> 
> Because multilib is just a crutch for running old/proprietary 32 bit code.
> 
> If you're a software developer, we generally require greater
> resources.  So it shouldn't be a big deal to have a few gigs to
> dedicate to an i386 mock root or use virtualization.

But _I_ _do_ _not_ _have_ _to_ _do_ _this_ _for_ _Win32_ _or_ _mipsel_.
Why is i386 special?
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 18:47:41 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:47:41 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsnood$rk6$2@ger.gmane.org>

Callum Lerwick wrote:
> And why do Pidgin alert sounds explode my speakers now? Yeah pump the
> hardware volume up to 100%, that's great... Why does Pidgin still not
> have native Pulseaudio support? I set it to use paplay because in the
> past Pidgin would leak PA connections and RAM like crazy and choke the
> machine dead any other way. This "flat volume" thing now seems to mean
> short alert tones will cause obnoxious volume glitching if they happen
> to be louder than my music.

Flat volumes can be disabled in /etc/pulse/daemon.conf or
~/.pulse/daemon.conf with the following line:
flat-volumes = no

        Kevin Kofler



From pingou at pingoured.fr  Wed Apr 22 18:51:03 2009
From: pingou at pingoured.fr (Pierre-Yves)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:51:03 +0200
Subject: Debug help
Message-ID: <1240426263.4941.4.camel@red.localdomain>

Dear all,

I would like to help for some advice on the bug:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=495878

I have asked upstream [1] for his opinion and he thinks that there is
something wrong in the packaging, but I can't find what...

The spec file can be seen in [2]

If anyone has any hints.

Thanks in advance,

Best regards,
Pierre


[1]
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=1239817476.6298.22.camel%40localhost.localdomain&forum_name=rkward-devel

[2] http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/rpms/rkward/F-10/rkward.spec




From tgl at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 19:04:35 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:04:35 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib 
In-Reply-To: <1240425859.18570.164.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<7363.1240423196@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1240425859.18570.164.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <9061.1240427075@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> writes:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 13:59 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>> That doesn't solve the problem.  The part of the problem that's actually
>> not solved today is the /usr/bin/foo-config problem.  Without a fix for
>> that, making it a bit easier to deal with include-file diffs isn't
>> worth anything.

> The same way cross compilation identifies gcc and strip and whatnot.
> Prefix it with the architecture.

Which immediately breaks all the upstream configure scripts that are
trying to use the config program in the first place.  You can get away
with renaming the compiler because there's twenty years of precedent
for not hard-coding the value of $(CC), and workable infrastructure for
build processes to avoid assuming anything about it.  There is no
precedent or infrastructure for dependent packages to find mysql-config
under any name but that one.

The approach that I thought about when I first ran into this problem
was to have the config script examine the value of `uname -i` to decide
which output to produce.  I remember being told that that wasn't
acceptable, but I do not recall exactly why not.

			regards, tom lane



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 19:06:44 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:06:44 +0200
Subject: Fedora 10 conflicts (was: Re: Finding file conflicts)
References: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
	<20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>
	<20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>
	<20090421190001.GB29618@victor.nirvana>
	<1240340727.3101.52.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422172221.532aca40@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <gsnps5$1bi$1@ger.gmane.org>

Michael Schwendt wrote:
> => kdeartwork-wallpapers-4.2.2-3.fc10.noarch in updates
>   File conflict with: kdebase-workspace-wallpapers-4.1.2-14.fc10.i386
> => kdebase-workspace-wallpapers-4.1.2-14.fc10.i386 in fedora
>   File conflict with: kdeartwork-wallpapers-4.2.2-3.fc10.noarch

That's 4.1.2 in fedora vs. 4.2.2 in updates. There's a
kdebase-workspace-wallpapers-4.2.2-3.fc10 in updates which doesn't have the
conflicting files. Apparently it didn't make it to your mirror in time (at
least the one I checked is still missing the file, though it was clearly
produced by the build which is now in dist-f10-updates:
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=97551 and a
4.2.1-7.fc10 build from a previous update is still sitting in the directory
on the mirror I checked). So I think this can be written off as a transient
failure.

        Kevin Kofler



From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 19:10:28 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:10:28 -0700
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <9061.1240427075@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<7363.1240423196@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1240425859.18570.164.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<9061.1240427075@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1240427428.2924.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 15:04 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> The approach that I thought about when I first ran into this problem
> was to have the config script examine the value of `uname -i` to decide
> which output to produce.  I remember being told that that wasn't
> acceptable, but I do not recall exactly why not.

It would likely require use of 'setarch i386' before calling the script
in order for uname -i to output the 32bit you may be targeting in that
run, which people may not expect.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From walters at verbum.org  Wed Apr 22 19:13:25 2009
From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:13:25 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <faa16b610904221213o358f1d9dg24a661610781d71@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
>
> But _I_ _do_ _not_ _have_ _to_ _do_ _this_ _for_ _Win32_ _or_ _mipsel_.
> Why is i386 special?

Because you're trying to take the multilib system and gcc -m32, which
aren't the same thing as the mingw-* and arm-* package sets.

Anyways I'm not an expert on cross compilation - multilib is already
pain enough =)  If there's a way you can make it work without massive
platform changes, more power to you.  But things like changing to
include64 are just not in the scope of multi*lib*.



From tgl at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 19:22:15 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:22:15 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib 
In-Reply-To: <1240427428.2924.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<7363.1240423196@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1240425859.18570.164.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<9061.1240427075@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1240427428.2924.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <9452.1240428135@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> writes:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 15:04 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>> The approach that I thought about when I first ran into this problem
>> was to have the config script examine the value of `uname -i` to decide
>> which output to produce.  I remember being told that that wasn't
>> acceptable, but I do not recall exactly why not.

> It would likely require use of 'setarch i386' before calling the script
> in order for uname -i to output the 32bit you may be targeting in that
> run, which people may not expect.

Right, it absolutely would require you to setarch before launching a
build for the 32-bit arch.  The question is why that's so unworkable.
Especially when the present alternative just plain doesn't work.

I note that it's already expected by a lot of spec files (or at least
by several of mine) that `uname -i` correctly reports the target arch.

			regards, tom lane



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 19:27:44 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:27:44 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
Message-ID: <gsnr3g$2p7$1@ger.gmane.org>

Felix Miata wrote:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493721
> "The new password cannot be the same as your old password or previous
> passwords."
> 
> If you won't let me choose my password, I have no use for you. I have too
> many systems and web browsers to use and too many places that need
> passwords
> for any site to decide I can't use my choice of password.  Been nice
> knowing you, but Fedora has no use for me, and I have no use for Fedora,
> if Fedora's going to be this way. I've changed banks over lesser
> stupidities.

I must say that Fedora's increasing security paranoia is annoying me as
well, though I won't be leaving just because of this issue.

        Kevin Kofler



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 19:44:43 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:44:43 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <gsnnj2$leh$4@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsnnj2$leh$4@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240429483.18570.232.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 20:27 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > How do I get this behavior back?
> 
> Use xfce4-mixer or KMix (the latter is part of kdemultimedia). Or the
> text-based alsamixer.

When I need a full mixer, alsamixer is what I use. What I'm missing is
the panel applet. I used to be able to just place my mouse over the icon
and use the scroll wheel. I'm just noticing the shiny new mixer app
doesn't seem to support that either...

Sigh.

When stumbling upon a youtube with crappy distorted overdriven audio, I
need to get the volume down FAST. If it weren't for the speaker sharing
setup I'd just use the nice low-latency hardware volume knob on my
speakers, where I don't have to wait for the software volume app to swap
in before the volume changes...
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From greno at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 19:47:18 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:47:18 -0400
Subject: F10: something broken with lvm
In-Reply-To: <49EBB65C.9010301@verizon.net>
References: <49EBB65C.9010301@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49EF7446.9080107@verizon.net>

Gerry Reno wrote:
> We just upgraded a number of machines to F10 and after a few weeks 
> I've noticed something wrong with lvm.  Some of our inhouse scripts 
> are breaking that deal with lvm.  When I look at /etc/fstab and mount 
> I see entries what used to look like:
> /dev/VolGroup00/LogVol01 /                      ext3    
> defaults        1 1
> getting changed to this:
> /dev/dm-3   /                     ext3   defaults      1 1
>
>
>
> Where does this '/dev/dm-3' device come from?  I don't find it 
> referenced in any of the lvm tool outputs.  Whatever caused this 
> change to happen please revert this back to just listing lv's in 
> normal lvm parlance please.  These mysterious changes are breaking 
> things and are a complete nuisance.  How do we go about undoing these 
> changes and how do we prevent this from happening again?
>
>
> Regards,
> Gerry
>
No one responded to this inquiry and these mysterious changes continue 
to happen.  How can we prevent this from happening?

Regards,
Gerry



From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Wed Apr 22 19:48:18 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:48:18 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> said:
> But _I_ _do_ _not_ _have_ _to_ _do_ _this_ _for_ _Win32_ _or_ _mipsel_.
> Why is i386 special?

When you compile for Win32, you are using a cross-compiler environment.
Everything about it is different; different includes, compilers,
libraries, etc.

Now, Linux/i386 could be set up that way on Linux/x86_64, but that would
require rebuilding the development stack for cross-compilation
(different compilers, development packages, etc.).  This is not the same
as multilib (which allows i386 and x86_64 binaries to co-exist).

Nobody is interested in putting that much work into that setup,
especially when you can just use mock (since i386 binaries can run
natively on x86_64).

What is wrong with using mock?  It takes a little more disk space, and
you have the one-time hit of creating the root, but then it runs just
fine.  Mock isn't just for building RPMs; with copyin, copyout, and
shell, you can use it for all kinds of work.

-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Wed Apr 22 19:49:39 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:49:39 -0500
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <gsnr3g$2p7$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net> <gsnr3g$2p7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090422194939.GE844100@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> said:
> I must say that Fedora's increasing security paranoia is annoying me as
> well, though I won't be leaving just because of this issue.

I would expect "security paranoia" is in response to last year's
incident.  Things were pretty loose and easy before that, and look where
that got Fedora.
-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 19:51:32 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:51:32 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 11:44 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 20:10 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 22:26 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 13:22 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 13:50 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > > I'm pretty sure the interweb provides half-a-gazillion mixer type
> > > applets, but the mixer applet as it were was removed from gnome-applets
> > > upstream.
> > 
> > Which is stupid. Deprecate first, then remove only after the new code
> > has gone through at least one cycle of wide release.
> 
> Thanks, love you too.
> 
> And ship two apps with that do the same thing in the desktop? What a
> great way to confuse things further.

We package duplicates all the time. Doesn't mean it has to be installed
or visible or available by default.

Lets rip out KDE, it just duplicates GNOME and confuses people!

> > > > Seems like yet another case of ripping out a stable solution and
> > > > replacing it with a new, shiny and immature one that fails to provide
> > > > similar functionality.
> > > 
> > > You had about a year to complain that the Volume Control feature didn't
> > > include your use case, and given the 0.01% of the population using their
> > > sound system like you do, I doubt it would have crossed our minds that
> > > this could have been the case.
> <snip>
> > Which brings me to now. Fedora 11 isn't even released yet. So don't give
> > me any bullshit about not being proactive about testing. Pulseaudio
> > isn't the only broken crap in Fedora.
> 
> I meant the volume control feature on the Fedora wiki. It's been there
> for a year. Sure you can ignore it.

Previously, on fedora-devel:

> > Well I'm sorry, I wasn't able to figure out from an
> > abstract description and a lot of tl;dr that my use case was going
> > to get screwed.

> But then you're going to complain when it breaks things for you.

WHAT is so hard to understand about people getting pissed off when you
break their shit, and then dismiss them as some kind of fringe nutjob
when they ask for help?

And when did it become Fedora policy that no one has a right to complain
unless they're an Alpha tester from day 1?

> > > >  Can I at least get a secret gconf key to do what
> > > > I want? :P
> > > 
> > > The volume control uses PulseAudio, it doesn't use ALSA directly
> > > anymore, so no, there's no secret GConf key for that.
> > 
> > So a PulseAudio config option then. Do I have to write the patch myself?
> 
> Probably not a PA config option either.
> 
> The volume control applet will show a mixer for input devices if an
> application is recording on it. You'd just need to make the mixer think
> that something is recording on that device. I'm not sure how to do that,
> but Lennart might.

No, you are misunderstanding. I don't want to adjust the input volume. I
want it left alone. I want the master left alone. Master stays at 0dB,
Line stays at 0dB. I want PA to dink with PCM instead of Master.

The volume of the secondary box is adjusted on the secondary box itself.

Oh gee, what do we have here:

$ grep "prefer Master" ChangeLog 
        9a4e84a: On recommendation of Takashi Iwai prefer Master volume control over PCM and don't control Mic control

Let's just reverse that then:

--- pulseaudio-0.9.15/src/modules/alsa/alsa-util.c      2009-04-13 16:11:32.000000000 -0500
+++ pulseaudio-0.9.15.patched/src/modules/alsa/alsa-util.c      2009-04-22 14:23:49.367297597 -0500
@@ -1180,7 +1180,7 @@
             else if (profile)
                 e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, profile->playback_control_name, profile->playback_control_fallback, TRUE);
             else
-                e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, "Master", "PCM", TRUE);
+                e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, "PCM", "Master", TRUE);
             break;
 
         case SND_PCM_STREAM_CAPTURE:

Suggestion: Make fallback order a config option. You are hardcoding
policy. That's a no-no.

Suggestion: Hardwired for only two options? There's no such thing as
two:

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeroOneInfinityRule
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TwoIsAnImpossibleNumber

> I don't know what Pidgin uses, but spitting out alert sounds using
> paplay is unlikely to work well at all.

Why not? Small processes working together is the Unix way. But people
seem to have forgotten that.

Pidgin doesn't exactly have low latency requirements.

> You need to set the
> "PULSE_PROP_media.role=event" envvar before launching paplay. Otherwise
> it thinks paplay is a normal, say, music application and will change the
> volumes.
> 
> That's a good use of your patch action: port Pidgin to use libcanberra.

How about a command line interface to libcanberra?

Thread dismissed.
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From emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr  Wed Apr 22 19:57:23 2009
From: emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr (Emmanuel Seyman)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:57:23 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EF4A70.8030804@ij.net>
References: <1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240414535.14173.726.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF4A70.8030804@ij.net>
Message-ID: <20090422195723.GA26540@orient.maison.lan>

* Felix Miata [22/04/2009 21:04] :
>
> OTOH, sensitive information needs protection from anyone in a position to
> divulge without potential for recompense. Thus access to protected
> information should be limited to non-ordinary accounts, and only those
> non-ordinary accounts should need more than nominal security, if any security
> at all.

Anybody can report a bug and any bug can be caused by (or expose) a
security exploit. Thus, all accounts are non-ordinary and they all need
strong passwords.

Emmanuel



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 19:58:23 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:58:23 -0500
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit)
 using 'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <49EF2A73.9060201@verizon.net>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>  <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
	<1240404948.16103.6.camel@moss-terrapins.epoch.ncsc.mil>
	<49EF2A73.9060201@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1240430304.18570.241.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 10:32 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
> David P. Quigley wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 00:41 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
> >
> >   
> >>         REMOVE/REINSTALL SELINUX (SELinux gets hopelessly confused 
> >> through all this so just remove and reinstall later)
> >>     
> >
> > I'm curious what you mean by this? Do you mean all the labeling is off?
> > Is there something wrong with the tools not working during this process?
> >
> > Dave
>  
> We were getting all sorts of avc denials and when we ran 'fixfiles 
> relabel' it would get errors and we were not able to relabel the 
> system.  So the easiest route was just to remove selinux during the 
> process and reinstall it afterwards, which worked perfectly.

'setenforce 0' wasn't enough?
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 20:04:06 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:04:06 +0200
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <gsnt7m$db9$1@ger.gmane.org>

Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>    3. Only FOSS solutions should be suggested, if someone is going to do
>       that (I won't cry if we drop Bugzilla).  If anyone mentions JIRA,
>       I may reach through the screen and strangle you...(I'm looking at
>       you, Moodle & Zend Framework!)

Somewhat related: have RH's customizations to Bugzilla ever been released?
If not, can they be? If not, wouldn't that alone be a reason to have a
separate instance for Fedora? We're proudly stating that our infrastructure
is running entirely on Free Software, but that only goes so far if the
software we're using has unpublished local patches.

        Kevin Kofler



From tgl at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 20:06:06 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:06:06 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib 
In-Reply-To: <20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net> 
References: <1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <10575.1240430766@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net> writes:
> What is wrong with using mock?

Not a lot.  The annoying thing is that the system will let you install
32-bit and 64-bit devel packages concurrently, and it *looks like*
that should be useful for something.  It isn't at the moment, because
of the foo-config-binary problem.  As a packager I'd feel better if
I weren't shipping packages containing such a bogosity.

			regards, tom lane



From greno at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 20:06:36 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:06:36 -0400
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit) using
 'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <1240430304.18570.241.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>  <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
	<1240404948.16103.6.camel@moss-terrapins.epoch.ncsc.mil>
	<49EF2A73.9060201@verizon.net>
	<1240430304.18570.241.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49EF78CC.1050209@verizon.net>

Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 10:32 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
>   
>> David P. Quigley wrote:
>>     
>>> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 00:41 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>>         REMOVE/REINSTALL SELINUX (SELinux gets hopelessly confused 
>>>> through all this so just remove and reinstall later)
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> I'm curious what you mean by this? Do you mean all the labeling is off?
>>> Is there something wrong with the tools not working during this process?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>       
>>  
>> We were getting all sorts of avc denials and when we ran 'fixfiles 
>> relabel' it would get errors and we were not able to relabel the 
>> system.  So the easiest route was just to remove selinux during the 
>> process and reinstall it afterwards, which worked perfectly.
>>     
>
> 'setenforce 0' wasn't enough?
>   
For some reason, no.  We couldn't get logged back into the system 
because of avc denial problems.  So we just uninstalled it and 
reinstalled it after everything was finished.

Regards,
Gerry



From bnocera at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 20:08:46 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:08:46 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <gsnnvo$q1v$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<gsnnvo$q1v$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240430926.4333.4581.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 20:34 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > You had about a year to complain that the Volume Control feature didn't
> > include your use case, and given the 0.01% of the population using their
> > sound system like you do, I doubt it would have crossed our minds that
> > this could have been the case.
> 
> People did complain, they got told (by you and others) that it is an
> intentional design feature not to show the options they need.

Complaining after a feature freeze isn't going to help us get the
software in the release just coming up.

What we don't want to do is do a botched job at supporting work-arounds,
instead of fixing the original use cases.

I'm not interested in adding a button to do this or that using ALSA. So,
no, we won't be adding a way to change the input settings via ALSA to
the gnome-volume-control UI. And we'll be fixing this properly for F12.

If you have specific use-cases that aren't covered by the current
software, file a bug upstream.



From jspaleta at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 20:09:35 2009
From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:09:35 -0800
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <604aa7910904221309p2e70f31du74cdc13eedc483b7@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> Yeah, me too, I couldn't live without Revelation now.

You may want to  look at other options.  Upstream for revelation went
completely dormant for several months, I almost orphaned it in Fedora
but I was able to track down the lead developer who assured me I
didn't need to fork the project to keep it moving forward.
Distros have been collecting downstream patches for smallish bugs with
upstream going MIA.

I'm sort of concerned long term about its continued use of the older
gnome-vfs apis instead of the new gvfs stuff.  And that's not
something I want to carry as a downstream distro specific patch.  Once
F11 is released, I'm going to take another look at upstream's
integrity and go from there.

-jef



From bnocera at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 20:11:36 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:11:36 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <gsnoi1$rk6$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<gsnoi1$rk6$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240431096.4333.4586.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 20:44 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > And ship two apps with that do the same thing in the desktop? What a
> > great way to confuse things further.
> 
> Why not ship one app which uses PulseAudio to set PulseAudio volumes and
> ALSA to set ALSA volumes? Hide the ALSA settings by default if you think
> users will get confused by them, but provide a way to enable them. (Of
> course it's too late for F11, but still, that's the right way to do it.)

Because ALSA sucks, and I don't want to go another round of working
around crappy ALSA bugs in the 3 different software mixers we have
(that's gnome-settings-daemon's volume keys handling, the applet and the
volume control).



From jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr 22 20:11:34 2009
From: jbgallagher2000 at yahoo.co.uk (James Gallagher)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:11:34 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
Message-ID: <934665.52290.qm@web26703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 22/4/09, Gerd Hoffmann <kraxel at redhat.com> wrote:

> From: Gerd Hoffmann <kraxel at redhat.com>
> Subject: Re: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
> To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Date: Wednesday, 22 April, 2009, 9:36 AM
> On 04/22/09 00:14, James Gallagher
> wrote:
> > Now a question for anyone: does the F11 beta release
> contain lots of
> > debug code and if so would you expect the final dvd to
> have a smaller
> > delta iso?
> 
> Unlikely.
> 
> > And one further point: wouldn't this be particularly
> useful for
> > successive test releases, alphas, beta,
> release-candidates, since the
> > deltas would be tiny.
> 
> That probably would work out much better, yes.? One
> could try F11-alpha -> F11-beta to figure.? There
> was the mass rebuild inbeetween though, so these delta size
> probably is higher than usual.? F11-beta ->
> F11-prerelease should give a more realistic picture.
> 
> cheers,
> ? Gerd
> 
> -- fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
> 

Don't have a F11 pre-release, but I found the Fedora 11 Alpha x86_64 iso
image and ran a makedeltaiso for that against the Beta. It came out at ~1.9GB,
not much different to the F10-F11 delta (2.1GB)

Out of interest, and since it was mentioned above, I also tried jigdo,
downloading F11 Beta and using F11 Alpha as the "old" disk, it was useless!
It said only 10 of the 3006 for the template were found, and then proceeded
to download practically the whole DVD, I stopped it at ~ 3.5G.

So, looks like the deltaisos provide about 50% saving. If anyone can test
F11 Beta against a pre-release candidate that would be appreciated.

Jamesa


      



From greno at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 20:11:48 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:11:48 -0400
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit) using
 'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <49EF78CC.1050209@verizon.net>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>  <49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>
	<1240404948.16103.6.camel@moss-terrapins.epoch.ncsc.mil>
	<49EF2A73.9060201@verizon.net>
	<1240430304.18570.241.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EF78CC.1050209@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49EF7A04.2070601@verizon.net>

Gerry Reno wrote:
> Callum Lerwick wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 10:32 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
>>  
>>> David P. Quigley wrote:
>>>    
>>>> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 00:41 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>>         REMOVE/REINSTALL SELINUX (SELinux gets hopelessly confused 
>>>>> through all this so just remove and reinstall later)
>>>>>             
>>>> I'm curious what you mean by this? Do you mean all the labeling is 
>>>> off?
>>>> Is there something wrong with the tools not working during this 
>>>> process?
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>       
>>>  
>>> We were getting all sorts of avc denials and when we ran 'fixfiles 
>>> relabel' it would get errors and we were not able to relabel the 
>>> system.  So the easiest route was just to remove selinux during the 
>>> process and reinstall it afterwards, which worked perfectly.
>>>     
>>
>> 'setenforce 0' wasn't enough?
>>   
> For some reason, no.  We couldn't get logged back into the system 
> because of avc denial problems.  So we just uninstalled it and 
> reinstalled it after everything was finished.
>
It appeared like it had become totally confused.  Probably because of 
all the different package removals and installs.  Maybe there is a 
common cause for why the rpmdb got totally confused and selinux getting 
confused.  I was not able to find out why this was happening only found 
a way to work around the problems.

Regards,
Gerry



From bnocera at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 20:14:19 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:14:19 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240431259.4333.4592.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:51 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
<snip>
> > I don't know what Pidgin uses, but spitting out alert sounds using
> > paplay is unlikely to work well at all.
> 
> Why not? Small processes working together is the Unix way. But people
> seem to have forgotten that.

Because paplay doesn't know it's playing a sound event, music, or audio
from a softphone. I also gave the work-around to avoid the change of
volume with flat-volumes enabled.

> Pidgin doesn't exactly have low latency requirements.
> 
> > You need to set the
> > "PULSE_PROP_media.role=event" envvar before launching paplay. Otherwise
> > it thinks paplay is a normal, say, music application and will change the
> > volumes.
> > 
> > That's a good use of your patch action: port Pidgin to use libcanberra.
> 
> How about a command line interface to libcanberra?

PULSE_PROP_media.role=event paplay




From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 20:18:26 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:18:26 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240431506.18570.244.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:51 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> Let's just reverse that then:
> 
> --- pulseaudio-0.9.15/src/modules/alsa/alsa-util.c      2009-04-13 16:11:32.000000000 -0500
> +++ pulseaudio-0.9.15.patched/src/modules/alsa/alsa-util.c      2009-04-22 14:23:49.367297597 -0500
> @@ -1180,7 +1180,7 @@
>              else if (profile)
>                  e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, profile->playback_control_name, profile->playback_control_fallback, TRUE);
>              else
> -                e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, "Master", "PCM", TRUE);
> +                e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, "PCM", "Master", TRUE);
>              break;
>  
>          case SND_PCM_STREAM_CAPTURE:

Aaaaaaand that doesn't appear to have worked. Grrrrrrrr. I haven't got
any more time for this I have Shit To Do.

(lol STD)
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From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 22 20:24:40 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:24:40 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240431259.4333.4592.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240431259.4333.4592.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240431880.18570.250.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 21:14 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:51 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> <snip>
> > > I don't know what Pidgin uses, but spitting out alert sounds using
> > > paplay is unlikely to work well at all.
> > 
> > Why not? Small processes working together is the Unix way. But people
> > seem to have forgotten that.
> 
> Because paplay doesn't know it's playing a sound event, music, or audio
> from a softphone. I also gave the work-around to avoid the change of
> volume with flat-volumes enabled.

Well then you GIVE it the ability to do so. Are you not a programmer?
Make paplay do this:

paplay --role event alert.wav

And apparently there IS a way to make it work, with the env variables
you keep mentioning.

(... why would paplay be playing audio from a softphone?)

> > Pidgin doesn't exactly have low latency requirements.
> > 
> > > You need to set the
> > > "PULSE_PROP_media.role=event" envvar before launching paplay. Otherwise
> > > it thinks paplay is a normal, say, music application and will change the
> > > volumes.
> > > 
> > > That's a good use of your patch action: port Pidgin to use libcanberra.
> > 
> > How about a command line interface to libcanberra?
> 
> PULSE_PROP_media.role=event paplay

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From mrmazda at ij.net  Wed Apr 22 20:29:12 2009
From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:29:12 -0400
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <20090422195723.GA26540@orient.maison.lan>
References: <1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>	<1240414535.14173.726.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EF4A70.8030804@ij.net>
	<20090422195723.GA26540@orient.maison.lan>
Message-ID: <49EF7E18.6080801@ij.net>

On 2009/04/22 21:57 (GMT+0200) Emmanuel Seyman composed:

> * Felix Miata wrote:

>> OTOH, sensitive information needs protection from anyone in a position to
>> divulge without potential for recompense. Thus access to protected
>> information should be limited to non-ordinary accounts, and only those
>> non-ordinary accounts should need more than nominal security, if any security
>> at all.

> Anybody can report a bug and any bug can be caused by (or expose) a
> security exploit. Thus, all accounts are non-ordinary and they all need
> strong passwords.

On the contrary, anyone who wants one can get a Bugzilla account, which
*every* bug is exposed to the whole world to see, until such time as that bug
is restricted to extraordinary accounts, those that are unavailable to every
Tom, Dick & Harry. Unless that happens, there is no actual security at all,
regardless of password policy.

In the meantime, those few bugs I filed that ever got any attention from
anyone other than myself will be unable to get any further attention from me,
only because I am forbidden from using my own choice of virtually pointless
password.
-- 
"He who works his land will have abundant food, but the
one who chases fantasies will have his fill of poverty."
				Proverbs 28:19 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/



From pemboa at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 20:34:09 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:34:09 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240425157.18570.141.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240344905.30902.106.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsnmm8$leh$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240425157.18570.141.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904221334x74c8b554hde8d2d97a711bb65@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 20:12 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Callum Lerwick wrote:
>> > Google has it right guys, the standard sucks:
>> >
>> > http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/google-doesnt-use-openid/
>>
>> No, Google is just showing that they have enough monopoly power to dictate
>> whatever proprietary "standard" they feel like. They're really the next M$.
>> They cannot be trusted. They're only "friendly" towards Free Software
>> insofar as it gives them a lot of software to parasite for proprietary web
>> apps at no cost. Just ask yourself why the Affero GPL is banned on Google
>
> That doesn't make them wrong about OpenID's UI sucking.


Does open ID dictate a user interface?


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From mclasen at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 20:36:43 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:36:43 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240432603.22084.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:51 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:

> I used to be able to just place my mouse over the icon
> and use the scroll wheel. I'm just noticing the shiny new mixer app
> doesn't seem to support that either...

Sure it does.

> How about a command line interface to libcanberra?

Try canberra-gtk-play.


You are trying too hard to complain, I think...



From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 20:36:34 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:36:34 -0700
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <9452.1240428135@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<7363.1240423196@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1240425859.18570.164.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<9061.1240427075@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<1240427428.2924.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<9452.1240428135@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1240432594.2924.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 15:22 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Right, it absolutely would require you to setarch before launching a
> build for the 32-bit arch.  The question is why that's so unworkable.
> Especially when the present alternative just plain doesn't work.
> 
> I note that it's already expected by a lot of spec files (or at least
> by several of mine) that `uname -i` correctly reports the target arch.

I honestly don't know.  I don't see much wrong with it.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 20:41:27 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:41:27 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EF7E18.6080801@ij.net>
References: <1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240414535.14173.726.camel@adam.local.net>	<49EF4A70.8030804@ij.net>
	<20090422195723.GA26540@orient.maison.lan>  <49EF7E18.6080801@ij.net>
Message-ID: <1240432887.2924.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 16:29 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> On the contrary, anyone who wants one can get a Bugzilla account, which
> *every* bug is exposed to the whole world to see, until such time as that bug
> is restricted to extraordinary accounts, those that are unavailable to every
> Tom, Dick & Harry. Unless that happens, there is no actual security at all,
> regardless of password policy.

Many bugs are filed with immediate restrictions, so that there is no
time at which the bug is viewable to the public or to the majority of
bugzilla account owners.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 20:46:44 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:46:44 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240344905.30902.106.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsnmm8$leh$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240425157.18570.141.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsnvnk$md9$1@ger.gmane.org>

Callum Lerwick wrote:
> That doesn't make them wrong about OpenID's UI sucking.

A proprietary Google "standard" "based on OpenID" isn't a solution to that
though.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 20:51:22 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:51:22 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsnnj2$leh$4@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240429483.18570.232.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gso00a$md9$2@ger.gmane.org>

Callum Lerwick wrote:
> When I need a full mixer, alsamixer is what I use. What I'm missing is
> the panel applet. I used to be able to just place my mouse over the icon
> and use the scroll wheel. I'm just noticing the shiny new mixer app
> doesn't seem to support that either...

KMix supports that fine, and as it's a systray applet it should also work in
GNOME. kdemultimedia does have a lot of dependencies though.

I haven't tried the XFCE mixer, maybe that one does what you want? It'll
have fewer dependencies.

        Kevin Kofler



From emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr  Wed Apr 22 20:59:35 2009
From: emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr (Emmanuel Seyman)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:59:35 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <49EF7E18.6080801@ij.net>
References: <1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240414535.14173.726.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF4A70.8030804@ij.net>
	<20090422195723.GA26540@orient.maison.lan>
	<49EF7E18.6080801@ij.net>
Message-ID: <20090422205935.GA27651@orient.maison.lan>

* Felix Miata [22/04/2009 22:35] :
>
> On the contrary, anyone who wants one can get a Bugzilla account, which
> *every* bug is exposed to the whole world to see, until such time as that bug
> is restricted to extraordinary accounts, those that are unavailable to every
> Tom, Dick & Harry. Unless that happens, there is no actual security at all,
> regardless of password policy.

Yup. That's why you have the option at all times to mark a bug as being
security sensitive, which you should do as soon as you realize that a
security exploit might be in question.

> In the meantime, those few bugs I filed that ever got any attention from
> anyone other than myself will be unable to get any further attention from me,
> only because I am forbidden from using my own choice of virtually pointless
> password.

I'm just saying that all Bugzilla need strong passwords, nothing else.
Personally, I would argue that the current policy encourages weak password
but that's just a gut feeling.

Emmanuel



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 20:57:00 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:57:00 +0200
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net> <gsnr3g$2p7$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090422194939.GE844100@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <gso0as$md9$3@ger.gmane.org>

Chris Adams wrote:
> I would expect "security paranoia" is in response to last year's
> incident.  Things were pretty loose and easy before that, and look where
> that got Fedora.

That harmless intrusion (nothing actually got compromised in Fedora space,
all the packages in the repo verified intact and there's no evidence of any
malicious packages having been signed) got blown way out of proportion (too
long downtime, too much secrecy, ...), more paranoia is exactly the
opposite of what we need.

        Kevin Kofler



From jonathan.underwood at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 21:08:01 2009
From: jonathan.underwood at gmail.com (Jonathan Underwood)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:08:01 +0100
Subject: F10: something broken with lvm
In-Reply-To: <49EF7446.9080107@verizon.net>
References: <49EBB65C.9010301@verizon.net> <49EF7446.9080107@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <645d17210904221408i666eb239g4b84edec7c9cca6e@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/22 Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net>:
> Gerry Reno wrote:
>>
>> We just upgraded a number of machines to F10 and after a few weeks I've
>> noticed something wrong with lvm. ?Some of our inhouse scripts are breaking
>> that deal with lvm. ?When I look at /etc/fstab and mount I see entries what
>> used to look like:
>> /dev/VolGroup00/LogVol01 / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?ext3 ? ?defaults ? ? ? ?1
>> 1
>> getting changed to this:
>> /dev/dm-3 ? / ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ext3 ? defaults ? ? ?1 1
>>
>>
>>
>> Where does this '/dev/dm-3' device come from? ?I don't find it referenced
>> in any of the lvm tool outputs. ?Whatever caused this change to happen
>> please revert this back to just listing lv's in normal lvm parlance please.
>> ?These mysterious changes are breaking things and are a complete nuisance.
>> ?How do we go about undoing these changes and how do we prevent this from
>> happening again?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gerry
>>
> No one responded to this inquiry and these mysterious changes continue to
> happen. ?How can we prevent this from happening?

Not sure what would cause that. Perhaps related to this bug:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=475773

Can you look back through /var/log/yum.log to work out which set of
package updates may have triggered the problem - that might provide a
clue.



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 21:08:38 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:08:38 +0200
Subject: Debug help
References: <1240426263.4941.4.camel@red.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gso10m$rhd$1@ger.gmane.org>

Pierre-Yves wrote:
> I would like to help for some advice on the bug:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=495878
> 
> I have asked upstream [1] for his opinion and he thinks that there is
> something wrong in the packaging, but I can't find what...

The package got built against Qt 4.5 and pushed to stable while Qt 4.5 was
still in testing, which is not a valid thing to do.

Qt 4.5 is now in the stable updates, please update your qt package and
rkward should work.

        Kevin Kofler



From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Wed Apr 22 21:15:58 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:15:58 -0400
Subject: Can we have a Delta-DVD release
In-Reply-To: <49EE9D9D.6030307@bwh.harvard.edu>
References: <459708.86261.qm@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<49ED3ED9.7090102@fedoraunity.org> <49EE9D9D.6030307@bwh.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <49EF890E.7090709@bwh.harvard.edu>

Andre Robatino wrote:
> Jonathan Steffan wrote:
>> James Gallagher wrote:
>>> Even if the image size is kept below 4.3GB for a single disk, the 
>>> delta download would be welcomed by many.
>>
>> Look into makedeltaiso and applydeltaiso. You end up needing the
>> original (previous release/target) and the delta. This is only useful if
>> the old ISO is left around and you want to end up with a full ISO on the
>> other side. The size of a delta ISO between Fedora releases might be
>> larger then expected. It would be interesting to see some data on this
>> matter.
> 
> One can use a script such as the rawread script at
> 
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/coasterless.htm
> 
> to read an ISO off an optical disc.  So the original ISO(s) can be read 
> off the original install media, if one has those.  Or one can just make 
> a point of keeping the original ISO(s) on the HD after installing.  And 
> even if the size of the deltaiso was 60% or 70% of the full ISO, it 
> would still be worthwhile to many.

Although the applydeltaiso man page doesn't document it, for the input 
ISO argument you can use /dev/dvd after popping in the old DVD (using 
the /media directory name doesn't work), for example

applydeltaiso /dev/dvd Fedora-9_10-i386-DVD.diso Fedora-10-i386-DVD.iso

When I tested this, it took somewhat longer than it did when using the 
ISO on the HD (48 minutes instead of 38).  Still well worth it.  I make 
a habit of keeping the old ISO on the HD, though, so if the old disc 
breaks or something before the new version of Fedora comes out, I can 
just burn a new copy.

If {make,apply}deltaiso are generalized to allow multiple input/output 
ISOs (I filed bug #497205 for this), this won't work anymore, since most 
people only have one optical drive.  But in that case, someone could 
create a user interface that allows reading/writing the discs by popping 
them in, one at a time.

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From pingou at pingoured.fr  Wed Apr 22 21:29:13 2009
From: pingou at pingoured.fr (Pierre-Yves)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:29:13 +0200
Subject: Debug help
In-Reply-To: <gso10m$rhd$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240426263.4941.4.camel@red.localdomain>
	<gso10m$rhd$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240435753.8838.3.camel@red.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 23:08 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Pierre-Yves wrote:
> > I would like to help for some advice on the bug:
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=495878
> > 
> > I have asked upstream [1] for his opinion and he thinks that there is
> > something wrong in the packaging, but I can't find what...
> 
> The package got built against Qt 4.5 and pushed to stable while Qt 4.5 was
> still in testing, which is not a valid thing to do.
> 
Then I am surprised, I though that when you build "normally" a package
it does not take into account package in updates-testing unless you
explicitly ask rel-eng to add this build to the chain.

But thanks for the hint, it seems to indeed correct that bug :)
I must have missed the announcement "Do not build against qt-4.5 and
push to stable while qt-4.5 is still in testing" :)

Best regards,

Pierre



From benny+usenet at amorsen.dk  Wed Apr 22 21:32:01 2009
From: benny+usenet at amorsen.dk (Benny Amorsen)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:32:01 +0200
Subject: security flaw in udev
In-Reply-To: <1240425031.18570.137.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Callum
	Lerwick's message of "Wed\, 22 Apr 2009 13\:30\:31 -0500")
References: <gsnim5$6fm$1@ger.gmane.org> <49EF5008.4010501@conversis.de>
	<1240425031.18570.137.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <m3ab681ijy.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>

Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> writes:

> Uhh, actually I find virtualization makes rebooting the host easier. My
> server is running CentOS 5 with its previous Debian install running in a
> Xen VM, that still handles most of the services. Apparently when the
> host reboots, the VM is automatically hibernated, and restored on the
> next boot. The VM hardly notices anything happened at all, just a
> temporary lack of network connection and CPU time... :)

The people trying to use the VM in the meantime aren't very happy, and
reboots take approximately forever if you have a decent amount of
guests.

That said, I don't let untrusted users into the host.


/Benny



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 22 21:41:12 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:41:12 +0200
Subject: Debug help
References: <1240426263.4941.4.camel@red.localdomain>
	<gso10m$rhd$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240435753.8838.3.camel@red.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gso2to$1fd$1@ger.gmane.org>

Pierre-Yves wrote:
> Then I am surprised, I though that when you build "normally" a package
> it does not take into account package in updates-testing unless you
> explicitly ask rel-eng to add this build to the chain.

That's what we did for Qt 4.5, so other stuff (which needed it) could be
built against Qt 4.5.

Buildroot overrides affect ALL packages built against a given package, they
are not per build. So building a package against Qt 4.4 required untagging
Qt 4.5 from the buildroot, building the package and retagging Qt 4.5 (which
is why my announcement said it should be done only if really needed,
otherwise the update should just wait for Qt 4.5).

> I must have missed the announcement "Do not build against qt-4.5 and
> push to stable while qt-4.5 is still in testing" :)

Yet it was sent even to fedora-devel-announce (and fedora-devel-list, too).

You MUST read the announcements in fedora-devel-announce (they're
automatically sent to this list as well).

        Kevin Kofler



From greno at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 22:04:40 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:04:40 -0400
Subject: F10: something broken with lvm
In-Reply-To: <645d17210904221408i666eb239g4b84edec7c9cca6e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EBB65C.9010301@verizon.net> <49EF7446.9080107@verizon.net>
	<645d17210904221408i666eb239g4b84edec7c9cca6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EF9478.1040807@verizon.net>

Jonathan Underwood wrote:
> 2009/4/22 Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net>:
>   
>> Gerry Reno wrote:
>>     
>>> We just upgraded a number of machines to F10 and after a few weeks I've
>>> noticed something wrong with lvm.  Some of our inhouse scripts are breaking
>>> that deal with lvm.  When I look at /etc/fstab and mount I see entries what
>>> used to look like:
>>> /dev/VolGroup00/LogVol01 /                      ext3    defaults        1
>>> 1
>>> getting changed to this:
>>> /dev/dm-3   /                     ext3   defaults      1 1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Where does this '/dev/dm-3' device come from?  I don't find it referenced
>>> in any of the lvm tool outputs.  Whatever caused this change to happen
>>> please revert this back to just listing lv's in normal lvm parlance please.
>>>  These mysterious changes are breaking things and are a complete nuisance.
>>>  How do we go about undoing these changes and how do we prevent this from
>>> happening again?
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Gerry
>>>
>>>       
>> No one responded to this inquiry and these mysterious changes continue to
>> happen.  How can we prevent this from happening?
>>     
>
> Not sure what would cause that. Perhaps related to this bug:
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=475773
>
> Can you look back through /var/log/yum.log to work out which set of
> package updates may have triggered the problem - that might provide a
> clue.
>
>   
Yes, that bug shows something similar but affecting mkinitrd.  These 
machines were upgraded from F9 and then began having these mysterious 
changes occur with these /dev/dm-N entries.  These devices bear no 
resemblence to any mdraid devices or LVM devices and our scripts 
completely croak with these devices.  Why are perfectly good devices 
being renamed to absolutely useless names?  All I want to know is how to 
stop whatever it is that is causing this.

Regards,
Gerry



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 22:15:23 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:15:23 -0700
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <1240422103.18570.77.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240361019.14173.699.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240374713.4722.38.camel@moose>
	<1240377155.20726.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240386832.3632.155.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240408868.20726.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240422103.18570.77.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240438523.14173.742.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 12:41 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:

> Stop thinking like engineers and thinking like suits and lawyers (in
> suits).

Is there any other kind of lawyer? :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 22:19:13 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:19:13 -0700
Subject: security issues in firefox (fixed in 3.0.9)
In-Reply-To: <gsnio1$6fm$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gsnio1$6fm$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240438753.14173.743.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 13:05 -0400, Neal Becker wrote:
> http://lwn.net/Articles/329565/rss

I really don't think you need to bother spamming the list about this.
The chances of our Firefox maintainers not knowing about a security
issue that is the main point of an entire new release of Firefox is so
low as to be virtually non-existent.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 22:23:16 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 06:23:16 +0800
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <604aa7910904221309p2e70f31du74cdc13eedc483b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<604aa7910904221309p2e70f31du74cdc13eedc483b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49EF98D4.2060405@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/23/2009 04:09 AM, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Adam Williamson<awilliam at redhat.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Yeah, me too, I couldn't live without Revelation now.
>>      
>
> You may want to  look at other options.  Upstream for revelation went
> completely dormant for several months, I almost orphaned it in Fedora
> but I was able to track down the lead developer who assured me I
> didn't need to fork the project to keep it moving forward.
> Distros have been collecting downstream patches for smallish bugs with
> upstream going MIA.
>
> I'm sort of concerned long term about its continued use of the older
> gnome-vfs apis instead of the new gvfs stuff.  And that's not
> something I want to carry as a downstream distro specific patch.  Once
> F11 is released, I'm going to take another look at upstream's
> integrity and go from there.
>
> -jef
>    
This is unfortunate.  There's KeepassX, which does something similar and 
is cross-platform, but Revelation is "nice" in terms of its simplicity 
and also the panel applet.



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 22 22:28:14 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 06:28:14 +0800
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <gso0as$md9$3@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<gsnr3g$2p7$1@ger.gmane.org>	<20090422194939.GE844100@hiwaay.net>
	<gso0as$md9$3@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49EF99FE.4030609@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/23/2009 04:57 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Chris Adams wrote:
>    
>> I would expect "security paranoia" is in response to last year's
>> incident.  Things were pretty loose and easy before that, and look where
>> that got Fedora.
>>      
>
> That harmless intrusion (nothing actually got compromised in Fedora space,
> all the packages in the repo verified intact and there's no evidence of any
> malicious packages having been signed) got blown way out of proportion (too
> long downtime, too much secrecy, ...), more paranoia is exactly the
> opposite of what we need.
>
>          Kevin Kofler
>
>    
I'm on the "forcing changing of passwords is not the best idea unless 
confirmed to be weak" side of things myself, but the security intrusion, 
had it not been detected, could have been disastrous, because the 
intruder injected a compromised rpm binary.  It wasn't worse because it 
was caught in time, thank God.

I do not think Bugzilla passwords would help in that situation, anyway, 
though.



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 22:33:35 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:33:35 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:51 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:

> > > Which is stupid. Deprecate first, then remove only after the new code
> > > has gone through at least one cycle of wide release.
> > 
> > Thanks, love you too.
> > 
> > And ship two apps with that do the same thing in the desktop? What a
> > great way to confuse things further.
> 
> We package duplicates all the time. Doesn't mean it has to be installed
> or visible or available by default.
> 
> Lets rip out KDE, it just duplicates GNOME and confuses people!

Well, we do have a couple of GUI mixers which still give you raw access
- the xfce mixer is the most logical fit. But I'd really like to have it
installed by default in this particular case. People will be happy at
not having a GUI mixer with raw access to the hardware channels only if
the shiny new abstracted mixer genuinely covers every case. As is very
clear from this list, the bug report, test-list and fedoraforums, it's
not even close. So I'm going to push very hard to have an alternate GUI
mixer available for F11. The new mixer is obviously the Way Forward, but
at the moment it's two steps forward for most people and a couple of
dozen back for a significant minority.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From mclasen at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 22:53:39 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:53:39 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 15:33 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

> 
> Well, we do have a couple of GUI mixers which still give you raw access
> - the xfce mixer is the most logical fit. But I'd really like to have it
> installed by default in this particular case. People will be happy at
> not having a GUI mixer with raw access to the hardware channels only if
> the shiny new abstracted mixer genuinely covers every case. 
> 

You can never cover _every case_, thats an illusion. Creating a usable
ui is to a large part deciding which cases are not worth supporting. You
just can't support everything that is possible by manually twiddling
with alsa internals, unless you just expose all the alsa guts 1-1 in the
ui. We've been there, and we don't want to go back to that. 





From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 22 23:00:39 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:00:39 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240441239.14173.750.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 18:53 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 15:33 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Well, we do have a couple of GUI mixers which still give you raw access
> > - the xfce mixer is the most logical fit. But I'd really like to have it
> > installed by default in this particular case. People will be happy at
> > not having a GUI mixer with raw access to the hardware channels only if
> > the shiny new abstracted mixer genuinely covers every case. 
> > 
> 
> You can never cover _every case_, thats an illusion. Creating a usable
> ui is to a large part deciding which cases are not worth supporting. You
> just can't support everything that is possible by manually twiddling
> with alsa internals, unless you just expose all the alsa guts 1-1 in the
> ui. We've been there, and we don't want to go back to that. 

I know, but we are clearly way too far in the other direction at the
point where the current mixer causes some people not to be able to get
any audible sound at all, and prevents you from selecting an input
channel. These are not bizarre corner cases.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 23:18:43 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:18:43 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 15:33 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, we do have a couple of GUI mixers which still give you raw access
>> - the xfce mixer is the most logical fit. But I'd really like to have it
>> installed by default in this particular case. People will be happy at
>> not having a GUI mixer with raw access to the hardware channels only if
>> the shiny new abstracted mixer genuinely covers every case.
>>
>
> You can never cover _every case_, thats an illusion. Creating a usable
> ui is to a large part deciding which cases are not worth supporting. You
> just can't support everything that is possible by manually twiddling
> with alsa internals, unless you just expose all the alsa guts 1-1 in the
> ui. We've been there, and we don't want to go back to that.
>

What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
sliders and stuff is useless?
Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?

Orcan



From greno at verizon.net  Wed Apr 22 23:26:33 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:26:33 -0400
Subject: F10: something broken with lvm
In-Reply-To: <49EF9478.1040807@verizon.net>
References: <49EBB65C.9010301@verizon.net> <49EF7446.9080107@verizon.net>
	<645d17210904221408i666eb239g4b84edec7c9cca6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EF9478.1040807@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49EFA7A9.3000201@verizon.net>

Gerry Reno wrote:
> Jonathan Underwood wrote:
>> 2009/4/22 Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net>:
>>  
>>> Gerry Reno wrote:
>>>    
>>>> We just upgraded a number of machines to F10 and after a few weeks 
>>>> I've
>>>> noticed something wrong with lvm.  Some of our inhouse scripts are 
>>>> breaking
>>>> that deal with lvm.  When I look at /etc/fstab and mount I see 
>>>> entries what
>>>> used to look like:
>>>> /dev/VolGroup00/LogVol01 /                      ext3    
>>>> defaults        1
>>>> 1
>>>> getting changed to this:
>>>> /dev/dm-3   /                     ext3   defaults      1 1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Where does this '/dev/dm-3' device come from?  I don't find it 
>>>> referenced
>>>> in any of the lvm tool outputs.  Whatever caused this change to happen
>>>> please revert this back to just listing lv's in normal lvm parlance 
>>>> please.
>>>>  These mysterious changes are breaking things and are a complete 
>>>> nuisance.
>>>>  How do we go about undoing these changes and how do we prevent 
>>>> this from
>>>> happening again?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Gerry
>>>>
>>>>       
>>> No one responded to this inquiry and these mysterious changes 
>>> continue to
>>> happen.  How can we prevent this from happening?
>>>     
>>
>> Not sure what would cause that. Perhaps related to this bug:
>>
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=475773
>>
>> Can you look back through /var/log/yum.log to work out which set of
>> package updates may have triggered the problem - that might provide a
>> clue.
>>
>>   
> Yes, that bug shows something similar but affecting mkinitrd.  These 
> machines were upgraded from F9 and then began having these mysterious 
> changes occur with these /dev/dm-N entries.  These devices bear no 
> resemblence to any mdraid devices or LVM devices and our scripts 
> completely croak with these devices.  Why are perfectly good devices 
> being renamed to absolutely useless names?  All I want to know is how 
> to stop whatever it is that is causing this.
>
> Regards,
> Gerry
>
Filed bug:  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497246

Regards,
Gerry



From devrim at gunduz.org  Wed Apr 22 23:32:08 2009
From: devrim at gunduz.org (Devrim =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=DCND=DCZ?=)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 02:32:08 +0300
Subject: packages that have not yet rebuilt in dist-f11
In-Reply-To: <gsnipp$5l8$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090417184659.GA18994@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1240355861.22352.109.camel@laptop-hp.gunduz.org>
	<gsnipp$5l8$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240443128.22352.121.camel@laptop-hp.gunduz.org>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:06 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Try changing the java-devel BR to an explicit java-1.5.0-gcj-devel.

Thanks, it worked.

Regards,
-- 
Devrim G?ND?Z, RHCE
devrim~gunduz.org, devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr
                   http://www.gunduz.org
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From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Wed Apr 22 23:31:40 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 01:31:40 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>

On Wed, 22.04.09 14:51, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> > > > >  Can I at least get a secret gconf key to do what
> > > > > I want? :P
> > > > 
> > > > The volume control uses PulseAudio, it doesn't use ALSA directly
> > > > anymore, so no, there's no secret GConf key for that.
> > > 
> > > So a PulseAudio config option then. Do I have to write the patch myself?
> > 
> > Probably not a PA config option either.
> > 
> > The volume control applet will show a mixer for input devices if an
> > application is recording on it. You'd just need to make the mixer think
> > that something is recording on that device. I'm not sure how to do that,
> > but Lennart might.
> 
> No, you are misunderstanding. I don't want to adjust the input volume. I
> want it left alone. I want the master left alone. Master stays at 0dB,
> Line stays at 0dB. I want PA to dink with PCM instead of Master.

You can pass a parameter (control=) when loading the PA ALSA plugin
(module-alsa-sink) which specifies the ALSA mixer element to
choose. It's intended to be used as a hackish work-around for drivers
that don't name their controls properly.

> Let's just reverse that then:
> 
> --- pulseaudio-0.9.15/src/modules/alsa/alsa-util.c      2009-04-13 16:11:32.000000000 -0500
> +++ pulseaudio-0.9.15.patched/src/modules/alsa/alsa-util.c      2009-04-22 14:23:49.367297597 -0500
> @@ -1180,7 +1180,7 @@
>              else if (profile)
>                  e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, profile->playback_control_name, profile->playback_control_fallback, TRUE);
>              else
> -                e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, "Master", "PCM", TRUE);
> +                e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, "PCM", "Master", TRUE);
>              break;
>  
>          case SND_PCM_STREAM_CAPTURE:

The mixer handling code changed a couple of times after this.

> Suggestion: Make fallback order a config option. You are hardcoding
> policy. That's a no-no.

No. This has nothing to do with policy.

We want to control the 'outermost' volume slider. Because that's the
one that most likely controls the actual analog amplifier if there is
any. Controlling 'PCM' is kind of pointless on most modern cards since
it is implemented digitally.

It simply doesn't make any sense to pick 'PCM', unless the driver is a
bit weird and doesn't have a 'Master' control.

And as mentioned there's a workaround, you can specify the control for
a sink. But using that will break device autodetecting and hence the
whole profile logic. BTW, that option was contributed by someone with a
weird driver who supplied me with a patch. He didn't whine on a huge
thread on a mailing list, but just prepared a patch. Could be a good
role model for some other folks, don't you think?

> Suggestion: Hardwired for only two options? 

Yes. 'Master' is the one two use. And 'PCM' is the fallback for broken
drivers. That's it. There's no need for more fallbacks. Drivers
should be fixed to register 'Master' properly. Which is why you even
could argue that having the 'PCM' fallback already hides driver
brokeness. 

> There's no such thing as
> two:
> 
> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeroOneInfinityRule
> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TwoIsAnImpossibleNumber
> 
> > I don't know what Pidgin uses, but spitting out alert sounds using
> > paplay is unlikely to work well at all.
> 
> Why not? Small processes working together is the Unix way. But people
> seem to have forgotten that.

Yes, we hate Unix, didn't you notice by now?

Anyway, Pidgin should be using libcanberra. There has been a bug open
in their BTS for a while about that. However, they appear to have
their very own opinions on some things, so this is not going to happen
very soon I fear. Unless of course someone prepares an actual patch
and fights that through the end. 

It would however probably be a better idea to finally move Fedora to
Empathy by default.


Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From greno at verizon.net  Thu Apr 23 00:14:24 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:14:24 -0400
Subject: F10: yum update broken
Message-ID: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net>

Just tried to perform 'yum update' on F10 and got this:

# yum update
Loaded plugins: fastestmirror, refresh-packagekit, versionlock
Loading mirror speeds from cached hostfile
 * updates: mirror.hiwaay.net
Excluding mirror: mirror.newnanutilities.org
 * fedora: mirror.hiwaay.net
Reading version lock configuration
Setting up Update Process
Resolving Dependencies
--> Running transaction check
--> Processing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 for package: 
PackageKit
--> Processing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 for package: 
PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin
---> Package PackageKit-glib.i386 0:0.3.15-2.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: PackageKit = 0.3.15-2.fc10 for package: 
PackageKit-glib
--> Processing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 for package: audit
--> Processing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 for package: 
audit-libs-python
---> Package audit-libs.i386 0:1.7.12-4.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package cups-libs.i386 1:1.3.10-1.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: cups-libs = 1:1.3.9-8.fc10 for package: cups
---> Package evolution-data-server.i386 0:2.24.5-5.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package freetype.i386 0:2.3.7-3.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package ghostscript.i386 0:8.63-6.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package glib2.i386 0:2.18.4-2.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package glib2-devel.i386 0:2.18.4-2.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package gnome-panel-libs.i386 0:2.24.3-2.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package gtk-vnc.i386 0:0.3.8-4.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-archive
--> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-obexftp
--> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-smb
--> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-gphoto2
--> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-fuse
---> Package gvfs.i386 0:1.0.3-7.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package ipw2200-firmware.noarch 0:3.1-1.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package kernel-firmware.noarch 0:2.6.27.21-170.2.56.fc10 set to be 
updated
---> Package krb5-devel.i386 0:1.6.3-18.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package krb5-libs.i386 0:1.6.3-18.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: krb5-libs = 1.6.3-16.fc10 for package: 
krb5-workstation
---> Package libX11.i386 0:1.1.5-3.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package libsmbclient.i386 0:3.2.11-0.30.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package libtalloc.i386 0:1.2.0-30.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package libtdb.i386 0:1.1.1-30.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package libudev0.i386 0:127-5.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package libv4l.i386 0:0.5.9-1.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package libvolume_id.i386 0:127-5.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package nautilus-extensions.i386 0:2.24.2-3.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package netpbm.i386 0:10.35.61-1.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 for package: 
netpbm-progs
--> Processing Dependency: nss = 3.12.2.0-4.fc10 for package: nss-tools
---> Package nss.i386 0:3.12.2.0-5.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package nss-devel.i386 0:3.12.2.0-5.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package ntfs-3g.i386 2:2009.4.4-1.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package oxygen-icon-theme.noarch 0:4.2.2-1.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package pam.i386 0:1.0.4-4.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package pam-devel.i386 0:1.0.4-4.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: perl(App::Prove) for package: perl-Test-Harness
--> Processing Dependency: perl(TAP::Harness) for package: perl-Test-Harness
--> Processing Dependency: perl(TAP::Parser::Aggregator) for package: 
perl-Test-Harness
--> Processing Dependency: perl(TAP::Parser::Source::Perl) for package: 
perl-Test-Harness
--> Processing Dependency: perl(TAP::Parser::Utils) for package: 
perl-Test-Harness
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-ExtUtils-MakeMaker
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-IO-Compress-Base
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Test-Harness
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: perl-version
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Pod-Escapes
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Compress-Raw-Zlib
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Module-Pluggable
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-IO-Compress-Zlib
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Pod-Simple
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Compress-Zlib
---> Package perl.i386 4:5.10.0-68.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package perl-devel.i386 4:5.10.0-68.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package perl-libs.i386 4:5.10.0-68.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package qt.i386 1:4.5.0-14.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package qt-x11.i386 1:4.5.0-14.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: libphonon.so.4 for package: qt-x11
---> Package rhino.noarch 0:1.7-0.4.r2pre.1.1.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package rpm-devel.i386 0:4.6.0-2.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 for package: rpm-devel
---> Package rpm-libs.i386 0:4.6.0-2.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 for package: rpm-libs
---> Package samba-common.i386 0:3.2.11-0.30.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: samba-common = 3.2.8-0.27.fc10 for package: 
samba-client
---> Package samba-winbind.i386 0:3.2.11-0.30.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package selinux-policy.noarch 0:3.5.13-55.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package selinux-policy-targeted.noarch 0:3.5.13-55.fc10 set to be 
updated
---> Package tzdata.noarch 0:2009e-3.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package tzdata-java.noarch 0:2009e-3.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package xine-lib.i386 0:1.1.16.3-2.fc10 set to be updated
---> Package xulrunner.i386 0:1.9.0.9-1.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 for package: firefox
--> Processing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 for package: epiphany
--> Running transaction check
--> Processing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 for package: 
PackageKit
--> Processing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 for package: 
PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin
---> Package PackageKit-glib.i386 0:0.3.15-2.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: PackageKit = 0.3.15-2.fc10 for package: 
PackageKit-glib
--> Processing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 for package: audit
--> Processing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 for package: 
audit-libs-python
--> Processing Dependency: cups-libs = 1:1.3.9-8.fc10 for package: cups
--> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-archive
--> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-obexftp
--> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-smb
--> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-gphoto2
--> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-fuse
--> Processing Dependency: krb5-libs = 1.6.3-16.fc10 for package: 
krb5-workstation
--> Processing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 for package: 
netpbm-progs
--> Processing Dependency: nss = 3.12.2.0-4.fc10 for package: nss-tools
--> Processing Dependency: perl(App::Prove) for package: perl-Test-Harness
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-ExtUtils-MakeMaker
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-IO-Compress-Base
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Test-Harness
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: perl-version
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Pod-Escapes
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Compress-Raw-Zlib
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Module-Pluggable
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-IO-Compress-Zlib
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Pod-Simple
--> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
perl-Compress-Zlib
---> Package perl-TAP-Harness.noarch 0:3.10-1.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package phonon.i386 0:4.3.1-2.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: phonon-backend >= 4.3.1 for package: phonon
---> Package rpm-devel.i386 0:4.6.0-2.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 for package: rpm-devel
---> Package rpm-libs.i386 0:4.6.0-2.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 for package: rpm-libs
--> Processing Dependency: samba-common = 3.2.8-0.27.fc10 for package: 
samba-client
--> Processing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 for package: firefox
--> Processing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 for package: epiphany
--> Finished Dependency Resolution
perl-ExtUtils-MakeMaker-6.36-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-ExtUtils-MakeMaker-6.36-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
gvfs-archive-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
gvfs-archive-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
perl-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
gvfs-smb-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
gvfs-smb-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
3:perl-version-0.74-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
3:perl-version-0.74-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
1:cups-1.3.9-8.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: cups-libs = 1:1.3.9-8.fc10 is needed by 
package 1:cups-1.3.9-8.fc10.i386 (installed)
audit-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 is needed by 
package audit-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 (installed)
rpm-libs-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 from updates has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 is needed by package 
rpm-libs-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
1:perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.18-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
1:perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.18-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl(App::Prove) is needed by package 
perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
gvfs-fuse-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
gvfs-fuse-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
gvfs-gphoto2-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
gvfs-gphoto2-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 is needed by package 
netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
1:perl-Pod-Escapes-1.04-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
1:perl-Pod-Escapes-1.04-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
1:perl-Pod-Simple-3.07-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
1:perl-Pod-Simple-3.07-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
perl-IO-Compress-Base-2.008-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-IO-Compress-Base-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
firefox-3.0.8-1.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 is needed by package 
firefox-3.0.8-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
audit-libs-python-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 is needed by 
package audit-libs-python-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 (installed)
gvfs-obexftp-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
gvfs-obexftp-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
epiphany-2.24.3-4.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 is needed by package 
epiphany-2.24.3-4.fc10.i386 (installed)
perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 from installed has 
depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 is needed by 
package PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
perl-IO-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-IO-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
samba-client-3.2.8-0.27.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: samba-common = 3.2.8-0.27.fc10 is needed by 
package samba-client-3.2.8-0.27.fc10.i386 (installed)
perl-Compress-Raw-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-Compress-Raw-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
PackageKit-glib-0.3.15-2.fc10.i386 from updates has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: PackageKit = 0.3.15-2.fc10 is needed by 
package PackageKit-glib-0.3.15-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
phonon-4.3.1-2.fc10.i386 from updates has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: phonon-backend >= 4.3.1 is needed by package 
phonon-4.3.1-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
nss-tools-3.12.2.0-4.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: nss = 3.12.2.0-4.fc10 is needed by package 
nss-tools-3.12.2.0-4.fc10.i386 (installed)
1:perl-Module-Pluggable-3.60-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
1:perl-Module-Pluggable-3.60-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
rpm-devel-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 from updates has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 is needed by package 
rpm-devel-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
krb5-workstation-1.6.3-16.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: krb5-libs = 1.6.3-16.fc10 is needed by package 
krb5-workstation-1.6.3-16.fc10.i386 (installed)
PackageKit-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 is needed by 
package PackageKit-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
1:perl-Pod-Escapes-1.04-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-Compress-Raw-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: nss = 3.12.2.0-4.fc10 is needed by package 
nss-tools-3.12.2.0-4.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
gvfs-fuse-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 is needed by package 
rpm-devel-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-IO-Compress-Base-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
3:perl-version-0.74-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: cups-libs = 1:1.3.9-8.fc10 is needed by 
package 1:cups-1.3.9-8.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
gvfs-smb-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
gvfs-gphoto2-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: samba-common = 3.2.8-0.27.fc10 is needed by 
package samba-client-3.2.8-0.27.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-ExtUtils-MakeMaker-6.36-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-IO-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 is needed by package 
rpm-libs-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
Error: Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
gvfs-archive-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 is needed by package 
epiphany-2.24.3-4.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
1:perl-Pod-Simple-3.07-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
1:perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.18-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 is needed by 
package audit-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 is needed by 
package PackageKit-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: phonon-backend >= 4.3.1 is needed by package 
phonon-4.3.1-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
Error: Missing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 is needed by 
package audit-libs-python-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: krb5-libs = 1.6.3-16.fc10 is needed by 
package krb5-workstation-1.6.3-16.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl(App::Prove) is needed by package 
perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
1:perl-Module-Pluggable-3.60-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: PackageKit = 0.3.15-2.fc10 is needed by 
package PackageKit-glib-0.3.15-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
Error: Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
gvfs-obexftp-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 is needed by package 
firefox-3.0.8-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 is needed by 
package PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 is needed by package 
netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 (installed)


????

Regards,
Gerry



From carwyn at carwyn.com  Thu Apr 23 00:22:32 2009
From: carwyn at carwyn.com (Carwyn Edwards)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 01:22:32 +0100
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <20090422153437.GA25607@orient.maison.lan>
References: <f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
	<20090422153437.GA25607@orient.maison.lan>
Message-ID: <82a5d2450904221722ofdaff45p21b2f143e27c786d@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/22 Emmanuel Seyman <emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr>

>
> The Bugzilla used by Fedora contains sensitive information (i.e.,
> restricted to certain accounts). Thus, we need strong passwords
> on the accounts.


Actually, it's only those certain accounts that need strong passwords, as
long as the application itself is secure the only passwords that are
dangerous are the ones that belong to the users with high security accounts.

The problem here really is that there's no group based separation of auth
policy.

Strong passwords don't really help verify identity for relatively unknown
persons anyway. So what if you can prove I know my password. You still have
no idea who I am.

This is a case of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The authenticity of
most bugzilla.redhat users means very little, it actually means more to the
end user than the service provider. This approach seems to have affected
many more users that it really needed to and probably reduced the overall
security of those "special" accounts by putting them in the same bucket as
everyone else.

Using something like SPNEGO with HTTP Negotiate (which many browsers now
support) for the elevated accounts might be better. Add an "elevate privs
link, tie that to a trust level inside bugzilla and you're done. Possibly
even more secure as the super privs are only used when needed, not when
trawling the standard cruft (think sudo for bugzilla).

Admittedly, from an implementation point of view, what's been done is a lot
simpler ;-)
-------------- next part --------------
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From greno at verizon.net  Thu Apr 23 00:25:27 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:25:27 -0400
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49EFB577.7000102@verizon.net>

Gerry Reno wrote:
> Just tried to perform 'yum update' on F10 and got this:
>
> # yum update
> Loaded plugins: fastestmirror, refresh-packagekit, versionlock
> Loading mirror speeds from cached hostfile
> * updates: mirror.hiwaay.net
> Excluding mirror: mirror.newnanutilities.org
> * fedora: mirror.hiwaay.net
> Reading version lock configuration
> Setting up Update Process
> Resolving Dependencies
> --> Running transaction check
> --> Processing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 for 
> package: PackageKit
> --> Processing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 for 
> package: PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin
> ---> Package PackageKit-glib.i386 0:0.3.15-2.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: PackageKit = 0.3.15-2.fc10 for package: 
> PackageKit-glib
> --> Processing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 for package: audit
> --> Processing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 for package: 
> audit-libs-python
> ---> Package audit-libs.i386 0:1.7.12-4.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package cups-libs.i386 1:1.3.10-1.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: cups-libs = 1:1.3.9-8.fc10 for package: cups
> ---> Package evolution-data-server.i386 0:2.24.5-5.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package freetype.i386 0:2.3.7-3.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package ghostscript.i386 0:8.63-6.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package glib2.i386 0:2.18.4-2.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package glib2-devel.i386 0:2.18.4-2.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package gnome-panel-libs.i386 0:2.24.3-2.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package gtk-vnc.i386 0:0.3.8-4.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-archive
> --> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-obexftp
> --> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-smb
> --> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-gphoto2
> --> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-fuse
> ---> Package gvfs.i386 0:1.0.3-7.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package ipw2200-firmware.noarch 0:3.1-1.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package kernel-firmware.noarch 0:2.6.27.21-170.2.56.fc10 set to 
> be updated
> ---> Package krb5-devel.i386 0:1.6.3-18.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package krb5-libs.i386 0:1.6.3-18.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: krb5-libs = 1.6.3-16.fc10 for package: 
> krb5-workstation
> ---> Package libX11.i386 0:1.1.5-3.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package libsmbclient.i386 0:3.2.11-0.30.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package libtalloc.i386 0:1.2.0-30.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package libtdb.i386 0:1.1.1-30.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package libudev0.i386 0:127-5.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package libv4l.i386 0:0.5.9-1.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package libvolume_id.i386 0:127-5.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package nautilus-extensions.i386 0:2.24.2-3.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package netpbm.i386 0:10.35.61-1.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 for package: 
> netpbm-progs
> --> Processing Dependency: nss = 3.12.2.0-4.fc10 for package: nss-tools
> ---> Package nss.i386 0:3.12.2.0-5.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package nss-devel.i386 0:3.12.2.0-5.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package ntfs-3g.i386 2:2009.4.4-1.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package oxygen-icon-theme.noarch 0:4.2.2-1.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package pam.i386 0:1.0.4-4.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package pam-devel.i386 0:1.0.4-4.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: perl(App::Prove) for package: 
> perl-Test-Harness
> --> Processing Dependency: perl(TAP::Harness) for package: 
> perl-Test-Harness
> --> Processing Dependency: perl(TAP::Parser::Aggregator) for package: 
> perl-Test-Harness
> --> Processing Dependency: perl(TAP::Parser::Source::Perl) for 
> package: perl-Test-Harness
> --> Processing Dependency: perl(TAP::Parser::Utils) for package: 
> perl-Test-Harness
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-ExtUtils-MakeMaker
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-IO-Compress-Base
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Test-Harness
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-version
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Pod-Escapes
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Compress-Raw-Zlib
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Module-Pluggable
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-IO-Compress-Zlib
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Pod-Simple
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Compress-Zlib
> ---> Package perl.i386 4:5.10.0-68.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package perl-devel.i386 4:5.10.0-68.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package perl-libs.i386 4:5.10.0-68.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package qt.i386 1:4.5.0-14.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package qt-x11.i386 1:4.5.0-14.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: libphonon.so.4 for package: qt-x11
> ---> Package rhino.noarch 0:1.7-0.4.r2pre.1.1.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package rpm-devel.i386 0:4.6.0-2.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 for package: rpm-devel
> ---> Package rpm-libs.i386 0:4.6.0-2.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 for package: rpm-libs
> ---> Package samba-common.i386 0:3.2.11-0.30.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: samba-common = 3.2.8-0.27.fc10 for package: 
> samba-client
> ---> Package samba-winbind.i386 0:3.2.11-0.30.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package selinux-policy.noarch 0:3.5.13-55.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package selinux-policy-targeted.noarch 0:3.5.13-55.fc10 set to be 
> updated
> ---> Package tzdata.noarch 0:2009e-3.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package tzdata-java.noarch 0:2009e-3.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package xine-lib.i386 0:1.1.16.3-2.fc10 set to be updated
> ---> Package xulrunner.i386 0:1.9.0.9-1.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 for package: firefox
> --> Processing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 for package: epiphany
> --> Running transaction check
> --> Processing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 for 
> package: PackageKit
> --> Processing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 for 
> package: PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin
> ---> Package PackageKit-glib.i386 0:0.3.15-2.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: PackageKit = 0.3.15-2.fc10 for package: 
> PackageKit-glib
> --> Processing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 for package: audit
> --> Processing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 for package: 
> audit-libs-python
> --> Processing Dependency: cups-libs = 1:1.3.9-8.fc10 for package: cups
> --> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-archive
> --> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-obexftp
> --> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-smb
> --> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-gphoto2
> --> Processing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 for package: gvfs-fuse
> --> Processing Dependency: krb5-libs = 1.6.3-16.fc10 for package: 
> krb5-workstation
> --> Processing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 for package: 
> netpbm-progs
> --> Processing Dependency: nss = 3.12.2.0-4.fc10 for package: nss-tools
> --> Processing Dependency: perl(App::Prove) for package: 
> perl-Test-Harness
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-ExtUtils-MakeMaker
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-IO-Compress-Base
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Test-Harness
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-version
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Pod-Escapes
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Compress-Raw-Zlib
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Module-Pluggable
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-IO-Compress-Zlib
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Pod-Simple
> --> Processing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 for package: 
> perl-Compress-Zlib
> ---> Package perl-TAP-Harness.noarch 0:3.10-1.fc9 set to be updated
> ---> Package phonon.i386 0:4.3.1-2.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: phonon-backend >= 4.3.1 for package: phonon
> ---> Package rpm-devel.i386 0:4.6.0-2.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 for package: rpm-devel
> ---> Package rpm-libs.i386 0:4.6.0-2.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 for package: rpm-libs
> --> Processing Dependency: samba-common = 3.2.8-0.27.fc10 for package: 
> samba-client
> --> Processing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 for package: firefox
> --> Processing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 for package: epiphany
> --> Finished Dependency Resolution
> perl-ExtUtils-MakeMaker-6.36-56.fc10.i386 from installed has 
> depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
> perl-ExtUtils-MakeMaker-6.36-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> gvfs-archive-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
> gvfs-archive-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
> perl-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
> problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
> perl-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> gvfs-smb-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
> gvfs-smb-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
> 3:perl-version-0.74-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
> 3:perl-version-0.74-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> 1:cups-1.3.9-8.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: cups-libs = 1:1.3.9-8.fc10 is needed by 
> package 1:cups-1.3.9-8.fc10.i386 (installed)
> audit-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 is needed by 
> package audit-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 (installed)
> rpm-libs-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 from updates has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 is needed by package 
> rpm-libs-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
> 1:perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.18-56.fc10.i386 from installed has 
> depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
> 1:perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.18-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
> problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl(App::Prove) is needed by package 
> perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> gvfs-fuse-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
> gvfs-fuse-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
> gvfs-gphoto2-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
> gvfs-gphoto2-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
> netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 is needed by package 
> netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
> 1:perl-Pod-Escapes-1.04-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
> problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
> 1:perl-Pod-Escapes-1.04-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> 1:perl-Pod-Simple-3.07-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
> problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
> 1:perl-Pod-Simple-3.07-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> perl-IO-Compress-Base-2.008-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
> problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
> perl-IO-Compress-Base-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> firefox-3.0.8-1.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 is needed by package 
> firefox-3.0.8-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
> audit-libs-python-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
> problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 is needed by 
> package audit-libs-python-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 (installed)
> gvfs-obexftp-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
> gvfs-obexftp-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
> epiphany-2.24.3-4.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 is needed by package 
> epiphany-2.24.3-4.fc10.i386 (installed)
> perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
> problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
> perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 from installed has 
> depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 is needed by 
> package PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
> perl-IO-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
> problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
> perl-IO-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> samba-client-3.2.8-0.27.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: samba-common = 3.2.8-0.27.fc10 is needed by 
> package samba-client-3.2.8-0.27.fc10.i386 (installed)
> perl-Compress-Raw-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 from installed has 
> depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
> perl-Compress-Raw-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> PackageKit-glib-0.3.15-2.fc10.i386 from updates has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: PackageKit = 0.3.15-2.fc10 is needed by 
> package PackageKit-glib-0.3.15-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
> phonon-4.3.1-2.fc10.i386 from updates has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: phonon-backend >= 4.3.1 is needed by package 
> phonon-4.3.1-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
> nss-tools-3.12.2.0-4.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: nss = 3.12.2.0-4.fc10 is needed by package 
> nss-tools-3.12.2.0-4.fc10.i386 (installed)
> 1:perl-Module-Pluggable-3.60-56.fc10.i386 from installed has 
> depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by package 
> 1:perl-Module-Pluggable-3.60-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> rpm-devel-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 from updates has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 is needed by package 
> rpm-devel-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
> krb5-workstation-1.6.3-16.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving 
> problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: krb5-libs = 1.6.3-16.fc10 is needed by 
> package krb5-workstation-1.6.3-16.fc10.i386 (installed)
> PackageKit-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 is needed by 
> package PackageKit-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by 
> package 1:perl-Pod-Escapes-1.04-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by 
> package perl-Compress-Raw-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: nss = 3.12.2.0-4.fc10 is needed by package 
> nss-tools-3.12.2.0-4.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
> gvfs-fuse-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 is needed by package 
> rpm-devel-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by 
> package perl-IO-Compress-Base-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by 
> package 3:perl-version-0.74-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: cups-libs = 1:1.3.9-8.fc10 is needed by 
> package 1:cups-1.3.9-8.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
> gvfs-smb-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
> gvfs-gphoto2-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: samba-common = 3.2.8-0.27.fc10 is needed by 
> package samba-client-3.2.8-0.27.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by 
> package perl-ExtUtils-MakeMaker-6.36-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by 
> package perl-IO-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 is needed by package 
> rpm-libs-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
> Error: Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
> gvfs-archive-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 is needed by package 
> epiphany-2.24.3-4.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by 
> package 1:perl-Pod-Simple-3.07-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by 
> package 1:perl-ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.18-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 is needed by 
> package audit-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by 
> package perl-Compress-Zlib-2.008-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 is needed 
> by package PackageKit-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: phonon-backend >= 4.3.1 is needed by 
> package phonon-4.3.1-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
> Error: Missing Dependency: audit-libs = 1.7.12-3.fc10 is needed by 
> package audit-libs-python-1.7.12-3.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: krb5-libs = 1.6.3-16.fc10 is needed by 
> package krb5-workstation-1.6.3-16.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl(App::Prove) is needed by package 
> perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by 
> package 1:perl-Module-Pluggable-3.60-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: PackageKit = 0.3.15-2.fc10 is needed by 
> package PackageKit-glib-0.3.15-2.fc10.i386 (updates)
> Error: Missing Dependency: gvfs = 1.0.3-6.fc10 is needed by package 
> gvfs-obexftp-1.0.3-6.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: perl = 4:5.10.0-56.fc10 is needed by 
> package perl-Test-Harness-3.12-56.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.8 is needed by package 
> firefox-3.0.8-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: PackageKit-glib = 0.3.14-1.fc10 is needed 
> by package PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin-0.3.14-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 is needed by 
> package netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
>
>
> ????
>
> Regards,
> Gerry
>
Just picking one of these (rpm):

# yum list rpm
Loaded plugins: fastestmirror, refresh-packagekit, versionlock
Loading mirror speeds from cached hostfile
 * updates: mirror.hiwaay.net
Excluding mirror: mirror.newnanutilities.org
 * fedora: mirror.hiwaay.net
Reading version lock configuration
Installed Packages
rpm.i386                                                 
4.6.0-1.fc10                                                  installed


It's not showing rpm-4.6.0-2.fc10 as available.


Regards,
Gerry



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr 23 00:33:36 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 02:33:36 +0200
Subject: F10: yum update broken
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>

Gerry Reno wrote:
> Just tried to perform 'yum update' on F10 and got this:

Mirror not synced yet. There was the big Qt 4.5 / KDE 4.2.2 update push, so
they have a lot of stuff to sync. Please wait a few hours, then retry.

        Kevin Kofler



From wwoods at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 00:38:52 2009
From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:38:52 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

> What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
> sliders and stuff is useless?
> Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?

Holy hell yes:
http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png

-w



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 00:46:11 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:46:11 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240447571.14173.753.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 20:38 -0400, Will Woods wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> 
> > What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
> > sliders and stuff is useless?
> > Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?
> 
> Holy hell yes:
> http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png

That's a true screenshot, but that argument is vulnerable to the exact
same 'logic' used to justify not caring about people who need to adjust
a different slider than Master or PCM, or people who want to switch
input channels: it's not a common case. most people don't see that much
of a mess of channels. The "Trident TRID4DWAVENX" is not a common sound
adapter.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - if our objection to
hardware channel access is 'it's insane on a few configurations', then
'it totally breaks what people are trying to do with their sound card on
a few configurations' is a valid objection to the new system.

If that's not the objection, stop shopping that screenshot around
everywhere. =)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From greno at verizon.net  Thu Apr 23 00:47:22 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:47:22 -0400
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net>

Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Gerry Reno wrote:
>   
>> Just tried to perform 'yum update' on F10 and got this:
>>     
>
> Mirror not synced yet. There was the big Qt 4.5 / KDE 4.2.2 update push, so
> they have a lot of stuff to sync. Please wait a few hours, then retry.
>
>         Kevin Kofler
>
>   
Ok, thanks.

I wish that the mirrors could run two repos, one online, one offline and 
just switch between them with a pointer. That way they would always 
appear consistent to clients. Whenever a big sync would happen it would 
happen to the offline repo and once it was finished then the offline 
repo would become the online repo. 100% consistency.

Regards,
Gerry



From greno at verizon.net  Thu Apr 23 01:01:51 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:01:51 -0400
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49EFBDFF.90300@verizon.net>

Gerry Reno wrote:
> Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Gerry Reno wrote:
>>> Just tried to perform 'yum update' on F10 and got this:
>>
>> Mirror not synced yet. There was the big Qt 4.5 / KDE 4.2.2 update 
>> push, so
>> they have a lot of stuff to sync. Please wait a few hours, then retry.
>>
>> Kevin Kofler
>>
> Ok, thanks.
>
> I wish that the mirrors could run two repos, one online, one offline 
> and just switch between them with a pointer. That way they would 
> always appear consistent to clients. Whenever a big sync would happen 
> it would happen to the offline repo and once it was finished then the 
> offline repo would become the online repo. 100% consistency.
>
Or if the mirror couldn't afford to keep two repos, they could use some 
type of lvm snapshot for taking the sync and then just commit the 
snapshot once the sync had finished. Not quite as good as two repos but 
would be fast switchover so almost 100% consistency.

Regards,
Gerry



From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 01:04:05 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:04:05 -0400
Subject: F10: yum update broken 
In-Reply-To: <49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net> 
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> writes:
> I wish that the mirrors could run two repos, one online, one offline and 
> just switch between them with a pointer. That way they would always 
> appear consistent to clients. Whenever a big sync would happen it would 
> happen to the offline repo and once it was finished then the offline 
> repo would become the online repo. 100% consistency.

I don't think it's that easy ... updates that are in progress are still
likely to see issues.  For instance, the package list you pulled ten
minutes ago might say foo-1.2.3 is current, but by now the one that's
visible on http is foo-1.2.4.  This is presumably soluble (eg, maybe
keep recently-obsoleted packages on-line for awhile), but it's certainly
not as simple as swapping a top-level symlink.

			regards, tom lane



From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Thu Apr 23 01:08:26 2009
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 04:08:26 +0300
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net>
	<gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net>
	<11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 04/23/2009 04:04 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> writes:
>   
>> I wish that the mirrors could run two repos, one online, one offline and 
>> just switch between them with a pointer. That way they would always 
>> appear consistent to clients. Whenever a big sync would happen it would 
>> happen to the offline repo and once it was finished then the offline 
>> repo would become the online repo. 100% consistency.
>>     
>
> I don't think it's that easy ... updates that are in progress are still
> likely to see issues.  For instance, the package list you pulled ten
> minutes ago might say foo-1.2.3 is current, but by now the one that's
> visible on http is foo-1.2.4.  This is presumably soluble (eg, maybe
> keep recently-obsoleted packages on-line for awhile), but it's certainly
> not as simple as swapping a top-level symlink.
It's much simpler. You just do the update in 2 passes
 - first you download the new packages      # old content is there, old 
repodata is there, so no breakage
- second you download the repodata and delete old content #content is 
already there, new repodata will point users to it.



From kevin at scrye.com  Thu Apr 23 01:18:28 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:18:28 -0600
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net> <11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 04:08:26 +0300
Manuel Wolfshant <wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro> wrote:

> It's much simpler. You just do the update in 2 passes
>  - first you download the new packages      # old content is there,
> old repodata is there, so no breakage
> - second you download the repodata and delete old content #content is 
> already there, new repodata will point users to it.
> 
You don't even need two passes. See: 

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Mirroring

--delete-after --delay-updates 

with rsync should (mostly) be atomic. 

kevin

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From greno at verizon.net  Thu Apr 23 01:35:23 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:35:23 -0400
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net> <11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>
	<20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <49EFC5DB.9010407@verizon.net>

Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 04:08:26 +0300
> Manuel Wolfshant <wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro> wrote:
>
>   
>> It's much simpler. You just do the update in 2 passes
>>  - first you download the new packages      # old content is there,
>> old repodata is there, so no breakage
>> - second you download the repodata and delete old content #content is 
>> already there, new repodata will point users to it.
>>
>>     
> You don't even need two passes. See: 
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Mirroring
>
> --delete-after --delay-updates 
>
> with rsync should (mostly) be atomic. 
>
> kevin
>
>   
If the mirrors are following this guideline and rsync works like stated, 
then why do we keep hitting broken mirrors when there is a big sync?

Regards,
Gerry



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 01:39:19 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:39:19 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net> 
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net> 
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net> 
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Will Woods  wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>
>> What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
>> sliders and stuff is useless?
>> Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?
>
> Holy hell yes:
> http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png
>

Wow that's great. I wish my soundcard (Audigy4) had that many
controls. It's only about half of it.

Orcan



From john.brown009 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 01:45:26 2009
From: john.brown009 at gmail.com (TK009)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:45:26 -0400
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <gso0as$md9$3@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<gsnr3g$2p7$1@ger.gmane.org>	<20090422194939.GE844100@hiwaay.net>
	<gso0as$md9$3@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49EFC836.4020404@gmail.com>

Kevin Kofler wrote:
>  ...got blown way out of proportion (too
> long downtime, too much secrecy, ...), more paranoia is exactly the
> opposite of what we need.
>
>         Kevin Kofle
+1

Edward (TK009)



From jreiser at BitWagon.com  Thu Apr 23 01:48:56 2009
From: jreiser at BitWagon.com (John Reiser)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:48:56 -0700
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net>
	<gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net>
	<11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>
	<20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <49EFC908.80508@BitWagon.com>

Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> You don't even need two passes. See: 
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Mirroring
> 
> --delete-after --delay-updates 
> 
> with rsync should (mostly) be atomic. 

Is this [still] true even with "rolling rawhide" where updates
happen as builds are completed?  My experience in composing DVD
from rawhide is that I should wait a few hours after "rawhide report"
in order to allow mirror sync, but waiting more than about 8 to 10 hours
(still less than half a day) is asking for trouble.

-- 



From mike at cchtml.com  Thu Apr 23 01:52:01 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:52:01 -0500
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <49EFC5DB.9010407@verizon.net>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net>
	<gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net>
	<11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>	<20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49EFC5DB.9010407@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49EFC9C1.3060101@cchtml.com>

Gerry Reno wrote:
> If the mirrors are following this guideline and rsync works like 
> stated, then why do we keep hitting broken mirrors when there is a big 
> sync?
>
> Regards,
> Gerry
>

Those mirrors should be identified and removed from the mirror lists. 
Yum should be able to report to some entity about a problem mirror. 
Sure, not automatically but after someone in Fedora rel-eng reviews the 
reports. Perhaps ask the user when an error occurs: Do you wish to 
report a problem?

Reportable reasons:
1) performance issues (high latency)
2) dependency errors
3) missing files

Possibly more. Most of all I'm tired of hitting a high latency mirror 
and the only way around it is to add it to my /etc/hosts file as 
localhost so that it will error and go on to a faster mirror.



From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Thu Apr 23 02:09:45 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:09:45 -0500
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <49EFC908.80508@BitWagon.com>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net> <11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>
	<20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49EFC908.80508@BitWagon.com>
Message-ID: <20090423020945.GA857498@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, John Reiser <jreiser at BitWagon.com> said:
> Is this [still] true even with "rolling rawhide" where updates
> happen as builds are completed?

Rawhide updates are only pushed once per day (at least under normal
conditions).  Individual builds are not pushed to the mirrors until the
next rawhide compose is done.

-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From greno at verizon.net  Thu Apr 23 02:38:31 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:38:31 -0400
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <49EFC9C1.3060101@cchtml.com>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net>	<gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net>	<11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>	<20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49EFC5DB.9010407@verizon.net> <49EFC9C1.3060101@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <49EFD4A7.2030003@verizon.net>

Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> Gerry Reno wrote:
>> If the mirrors are following this guideline and rsync works like 
>> stated, then why do we keep hitting broken mirrors when there is a 
>> big sync?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gerry
>>
>
> Those mirrors should be identified and removed from the mirror lists. 
> Yum should be able to report to some entity about a problem mirror. 
> Sure, not automatically but after someone in Fedora rel-eng reviews 
> the reports. Perhaps ask the user when an error occurs: Do you wish to 
> report a problem?
>
> Reportable reasons:
> 1) performance issues (high latency)
> 2) dependency errors
> 3) missing files
>
> Possibly more. Most of all I'm tired of hitting a high latency mirror 
> and the only way around it is to add it to my /etc/hosts file as 
> localhost so that it will error and go on to a faster mirror.
>
I just add those to /etc/yum/pluginconf.d/fastestmirror.conf:

exclude=MIRROR MIRROR MIRROR


Regards,
Gerry



From davej at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 03:40:43 2009
From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:40:43 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240447571.14173.753.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240447571.14173.753.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090423034043.GA14900@redhat.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 05:46:11PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
 > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 20:38 -0400, Will Woods wrote:
 > > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
 > > 
 > > > What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
 > > > sliders and stuff is useless?
 > > > Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?
 > > 
 > > Holy hell yes:
 > > http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png
 > 
 > That's a true screenshot, but that argument is vulnerable to the exact
 > same 'logic' used to justify not caring about people who need to adjust
 > a different slider than Master or PCM, or people who want to switch
 > input channels: it's not a common case. most people don't see that much
 > of a mess of channels. The "Trident TRID4DWAVENX" is not a common sound
 > adapter.

Good thing it doesn't happen on other more common cards then.
Like say, the emu10k1. 
http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/junk/wtf/alsa-mixer-o-doom.jpg

oops.

	Dave



From Matt_Domsch at dell.com  Thu Apr 23 04:18:08 2009
From: Matt_Domsch at dell.com (Matt Domsch)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:18:08 -0500
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <49EFD4A7.2030003@verizon.net>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net> <11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>
	<20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49EFC5DB.9010407@verizon.net> <49EFC9C1.3060101@cchtml.com>
	<49EFD4A7.2030003@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20090423041808.GB8153@auslistsprd01.us.dell.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:38:31PM -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
> Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> >Gerry Reno wrote:
> >>If the mirrors are following this guideline and rsync works like 
> >>stated, then why do we keep hitting broken mirrors when there is a 
> >>big sync?
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>Gerry
> >>
> >
> >Those mirrors should be identified and removed from the mirror lists. 
> >Yum should be able to report to some entity about a problem mirror. 
> >Sure, not automatically but after someone in Fedora rel-eng reviews 
> >the reports. Perhaps ask the user when an error occurs: Do you wish to 
> >report a problem?
> >
> >Reportable reasons:
> >1) performance issues (high latency)
> >2) dependency errors
> >3) missing files
> >
> >Possibly more. Most of all I'm tired of hitting a high latency mirror 
> >and the only way around it is to add it to my /etc/hosts file as 
> >localhost so that it will error and go on to a faster mirror.
> >
> I just add those to /etc/yum/pluginconf.d/fastestmirror.conf:
> 
> exclude=MIRROR MIRROR MIRROR

Which mirrors please?

Thanks,
Matt
Fedora Mirror Wrangler

-- 
Matt Domsch
Linux Technology Strategist, Dell Office of the CTO
linux.dell.com & www.dell.com/linux



From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 05:16:15 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:16:15 +0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423034043.GA14900@redhat.com>
References: <1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240447571.14173.753.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090423034043.GA14900@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200904231016.15547.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Thursday 23 April 2009 08:40:43 Dave Jones wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 05:46:11PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
> Good thing it doesn't happen on other more common cards then.
> Like say, the emu10k1.
> http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/junk/wtf/alsa-mixer-o-doom.jpg
>

And what about another card which is at least as popular?
I'm talking about HDA cards.
Have you ever been able to get any mic input (e.g. for voip)
on any HDA card without messing with all the channels?
I always had to select the source manually then find which of the controls
changes volume and then do some tuning to find optimal volume/noise ratio.
Yes, this is very ugly but it's much better than no mic input at all.

P.S. This doesn't create much problems for me, 
just another reason to stick with KDE/kmix.
But I'm sure there are many people who want to use a SIP softphone with GNOME.

Suren



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 05:16:18 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:16:18 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423034043.GA14900@redhat.com>
References: <1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240447571.14173.753.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090423034043.GA14900@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240463778.14173.763.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 23:40 -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 05:46:11PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>  > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 20:38 -0400, Will Woods wrote:
>  > > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>  > > 
>  > > > What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
>  > > > sliders and stuff is useless?
>  > > > Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?
>  > > 
>  > > Holy hell yes:
>  > > http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png
>  > 
>  > That's a true screenshot, but that argument is vulnerable to the exact
>  > same 'logic' used to justify not caring about people who need to adjust
>  > a different slider than Master or PCM, or people who want to switch
>  > input channels: it's not a common case. most people don't see that much
>  > of a mess of channels. The "Trident TRID4DWAVENX" is not a common sound
>  > adapter.
> 
> Good thing it doesn't happen on other more common cards then.
> Like say, the emu10k1. 
> http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/junk/wtf/alsa-mixer-o-doom.jpg

OK, so there's clearly a bug there.

Again to take the approach of the PulseAudio cheerleaders: this should
clearly be reported to the upstream project so it gets resolved. =)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 06:06:03 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:06:03 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <200904231016.15547.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
References: <1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240447571.14173.753.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090423034043.GA14900@redhat.com>
	<200904231016.15547.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240466763.14173.764.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 10:16 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> On Thursday 23 April 2009 08:40:43 Dave Jones wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 05:46:11PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> >
> > Good thing it doesn't happen on other more common cards then.
> > Like say, the emu10k1.
> > http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/junk/wtf/alsa-mixer-o-doom.jpg
> >
> 
> And what about another card which is at least as popular?
> I'm talking about HDA cards.
> Have you ever been able to get any mic input (e.g. for voip)
> on any HDA card without messing with all the channels?
> I always had to select the source manually then find which of the controls
> changes volume and then do some tuning to find optimal volume/noise ratio.
> Yes, this is very ugly but it's much better than no mic input at all.
> 
> P.S. This doesn't create much problems for me, 
> just another reason to stick with KDE/kmix.
> But I'm sure there are many people who want to use a SIP softphone with GNOME.

Clearly the argument is now getting confused, because I'm in *favour* of
having a legacy mixer available, not against it...the argument about
having large numbers of channels is that it's overwhelming and confusing
and hence we should be supported PulseAudio in abstracting them all
away.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 23 06:20:39 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:50:39 +0530
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/23/2009 07:09 AM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Will Woods  wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>>
>>> What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
>>> sliders and stuff is useless?
>>> Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?
>> Holy hell yes:
>> http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png
>>
> 
> Wow that's great. I wish my soundcard (Audigy4) had that many
> controls. It's only about half of it.

Thank $deity. Very few people really want to fiddle with that many
controls. That UI is clearly not a sane one.

Rahul



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 06:57:31 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:57:31 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1240469851.14173.767.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 11:50 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> Thank $deity. Very few people really want to fiddle with that many
> controls. That UI is clearly not a sane one.

Of course they don't, but given the choice between "have to suffer
through poking all those controls in order to get audible sound / record
from an external device" and "not be able to get audible sound or record
from an external device", I think most people would prefer the former.
No-one's saying the previous situation is perfect, the point is that the
new system is missing functionality that is blatantly needed, which will
be experienced (and is *already* being experienced) by many many users
as a severe regression.

I don't think anyone wants to lose the new volume control, or even for
it not to be the default. All I'm asking for is for *some* old-skool GUI
mixer to be installed alongside it by default so those who need to poke
those controls will be able to find a reasonably usable app to do it
with.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 23 07:02:54 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:32:54 +0530
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <49EF4C72.1040505@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>	<200904221114.33489.dennis@ausil.us>	<49EF4483.5090400@hidayahonline.org>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221125300.24058@laptop.mmcgrath.net>	<49EF478C.4040004@hidayahonline.org>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904221149380.24058@laptop.mmcgrath.net>
	<49EF4C72.1040505@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <49F0129E.7090502@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/22/2009 10:27 PM, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:

>>    
> I didn't really mean those questions for you, but rather, they're
> somewhat rhetorical.  The impression I'm getting is that Bugzilla is
> some kind of mammoth app that requires a huge investment of resources to
> run & maintain.  I thought it was just an enterprise-level bug tracker. 
> It's deployed quite widely.

Enterprise level and mammoths go hand in hand.

Rahul



From pemboa at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 07:11:13 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 02:11:13 -0500
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Basil Mohamed Gohar
<abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org> wrote:

> ?3. Red Hat Bugzilla is SLOW. ?I'm serious. ?It's that big of an issue
> ? ? for me. ?I hope having our own would make it "go faster".


How slow is it? And how is moving to a new buzilla going to help with
that? I use it regularly enough, I haven't noticed anything special
about it of late.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 23 07:21:35 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:51:35 +0530
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240469851.14173.767.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240469851.14173.767.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49F016FF.40301@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/23/2009 12:27 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 11:50 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> 
>> Thank $deity. Very few people really want to fiddle with that many
>> controls. That UI is clearly not a sane one.
> 
> Of course they don't, but given the choice between "have to suffer
> through poking all those controls in order to get audible sound / record
> from an external device" and "not be able to get audible sound or record
> from an external device", I think most people would prefer the former.

Adam,

I am not arguing with your point. You don't have to defend that view
point. I have posted my own problem to fedora-desktop list a while back.
I am just saying that, the UI is not a sane one. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Rahul



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 23 07:30:08 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:00:08 +0530
Subject: How to cross-upgrade Fedora x86(32-bit) => x86_64(64-bit) using
 'preupgrade'
In-Reply-To: <49EF78CC.1050209@verizon.net>
References: <49DFA9C9.6060705@verizon.net>
	<49EE9FF0.90100@verizon.net>	<1240404948.16103.6.camel@moss-terrapins.epoch.ncsc.mil>	<49EF2A73.9060201@verizon.net>	<1240430304.18570.241.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EF78CC.1050209@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49F01900.8050400@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/23/2009 01:36 AM, Gerry Reno wrote:

> For some reason, no.  We couldn't get logged back into the system
> because of avc denial problems.  So we just uninstalled it and
> reinstalled it after everything was finished.

That sounds like a SELinux bug. If you can reproduce this anyhow, please
file a bug report.

Rahul



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Thu Apr 23 07:41:33 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 08:41:33 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 11:50 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 04/23/2009 07:09 AM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Will Woods  wrote:
> >> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> >>
> >>> What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
> >>> sliders and stuff is useless?
> >>> Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?
> >> Holy hell yes:
> >> http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png
> >>
> > 
> > Wow that's great. I wish my soundcard (Audigy4) had that many
> > controls. It's only about half of it.
> 
> Thank $deity. Very few people really want to fiddle with that many
> controls. That UI is clearly not a sane one.

Probably true -- and there's a very good case for simplifying it by
_default_.

But just breaking certain features, including "play audio through line
in", or "set the speaker volumes as the user wants them" is really not
the way to do it.

I can't play DVDs through my TV from my laptop at the moment either --
the only way I could get sufficient volume before was to plug in some
external speakers (which automatically turns off the internal speakers)
and then use gnome-volume-control to turn the internal speakers back
_on_ again. I can't do that any more.

The proposals I've seen to work around PulseAudio's problems have been
ridiculous -- running audio over the network using PulseAudio,
introducing a bunch of latency which wouldn't otherwise be there, was a
stupid suggestion even if the other box wasn't running Windows. The
hardware has a line-in socket for a reason -- are we just going to
advise Fedora users to tape over it and pretend it isn't there?

And the response to Stephen's need to control bass and treble speakers
individually was stupid too -- you _don't_ want to just tie them
together. Depending on what he's playing, he might need to adjust the
relative volume of bass vs. treble. That's not an unreasonable desire.

While I completely accept that we should be showing something _simple_
to the user in the default case, we really _do_ need to do better for
the cases where the user needs something more than that.

It's not good enough to just say "No. I know your hardware can do that
really well and it used to work, but we have decreed that your use case
isn't important so you're not allowed to do it that way any more".

That just sucks.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From mcepl at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 07:58:00 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:58:00 +0200
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org> <gsnt7m$db9$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <8lj5c6-isv.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-22, 20:04 GMT, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Somewhat related: have RH's customizations to Bugzilla ever 
> been released?

I believe that everything what's reasonable (e.g., not some 
RHEL-management stuff) was sent upstream. I know for sure that 
Dave Lawrence (the main bugzilla magician in Red Hat) works 
really hard on keeping the RH-customization as small as possible 
-- after being burnt severely with previous instance of bugzilla 
(where upgrade to BZ 3.0 took over a year) they are trying to 
keep the customizations lean. And if you noticed, we had couple 
of upgrades of bugzilla to the latest version. I didn't, unless 
somebody reminded me.

Matej



From mcepl at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 07:53:04 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:53:04 +0200
Subject: security flaw in udev
References: <gsnim5$6fm$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <0cj5c6-isv.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-22, 17:04 GMT, Neal Becker wrote:
> http://lwn.net/Articles/329266/rss

Please don't spam this list with your newsbits. No one is bound 
to look here (for example udev maintainers may never see this).  
Go and file a bug in the bugzilla, if you think it is important 
(and check first, that it has not been already filed).

Matej



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 08:12:06 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 03:12:06 -0500
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <82a5d2450904221722ofdaff45p21b2f143e27c786d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4CA1.607@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240359417.3101.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE9F3D.7040804@freenet.de>
	<1240377190.20726.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EEE056.3050807@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240413100.14173.708.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49EF372C.6030105@hidayahonline.org>
	<20090422153437.GA25607@orient.maison.lan>
	<82a5d2450904221722ofdaff45p21b2f143e27c786d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904230112l79b33158pa99ef59780b47cf9@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:22 PM, Carwyn Edwards <carwyn at carwyn.com> wrote:

>
>
> 2009/4/22 Emmanuel Seyman <emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr>
>
>>
>> The Bugzilla used by Fedora contains sensitive information (i.e.,
>> restricted to certain accounts). Thus, we need strong passwords
>> on the accounts.
>
>
> Actually, it's only those certain accounts that need strong passwords, as
> long as the application itself is secure the only passwords that are
> dangerous are the ones that belong to the users with high security accounts.
>
> The problem here really is that there's no group based separation of auth
> policy.
>
> Strong passwords don't really help verify identity for relatively unknown
> persons anyway. So what if you can prove I know my password. You still have
> no idea who I am.
>
> This is a case of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The authenticity of
> most bugzilla.redhat users means very little, it actually means more to the
> end user than the service provider. This approach seems to have affected
> many more users that it really needed to and probably reduced the overall
> security of those "special" accounts by putting them in the same bucket as
> everyone else.
>
> Using something like SPNEGO with HTTP Negotiate (which many browsers now
> support) for the elevated accounts might be better. Add an "elevate privs
> link, tie that to a trust level inside bugzilla and you're done. Possibly
> even more secure as the super privs are only used when needed, not when
> trawling the standard cruft (think sudo for bugzilla).
>
> Admittedly, from an implementation point of view, what's been done is a lot
> simpler ;-)
>
>
>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>


Why not secure the actual authentication process with a crypto scheme, such
as AES or DiffieHellman? Better yet, if Fedora does move off of the Red Hat
Bugzilla, maybe we could use something else for bug tracking that does
support these schemes because Bugzilla is very very slow most of the time I
try to use it.

However, if you really want to be paranoid, why not require Yubikey OTPs for
people using the bugzilla :P j/k
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From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 08:29:07 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 03:29:07 -0500
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:11 AM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Basil Mohamed Gohar
> <abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org> wrote:
>
> >  3. Red Hat Bugzilla is SLOW.  I'm serious.  It's that big of an issue
> >     for me.  I hope having our own would make it "go faster".
>
>
> How slow is it? And how is moving to a new buzilla going to help with
> that? I use it regularly enough, I haven't noticed anything special
> about it of late.
>
>
How had you not noticed how slow it is? For me, on average it takes
approximately 2.5sec to load a page. Red Hat Bugzilla takes approximately
15-20sec to load a page. This gets really bad when you consider the number
of pages you go through to get stuff done in the bugzilla. However, I
severely doubt Red Hat or the Fedora Project will allow the separation of
bug trackers at this time for the simple reason that Fedora bugs are often
tied to Red Hat bugs. All Red Hat people would have to do is tag a bug for
RHEL in addition to Fedora. This kind of bug tracking simplicity is
something I doubt they would be willing to give up.

In any case, it might be a better idea to move off of Bugzilla and to
something else. I would like to suggest Mantis Bug Tracker (
http://mantisbt.org). It is quite nice in my experience and it even has
scripts available to migrate from Bugzilla to MantisBT. In my experience, it
is closer to the average page load that I usually get than Bugzilla, taking
at most 5sec to load a page with it being less than 3sec most of the time.
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From mcepl at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 08:23:03 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:23:03 +0200
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org> <4449.1240415821@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <74l5c6-gl4.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-22, 15:57 GMT, Tom Lane wrote:
> If there are two trackers involved, one or the
> other is going to get looked at less frequently, and given who pays
> me I'm afraid Fedora is going to lose out.

I would add that there are components, which I am going through 
just because it is more convenient to do so, but in case I would 
have to set up new queries just to satisfy somebody's need for 
change, I would just skip them ... seamonkey, epiphany, galeon, 
that's about you, I am talking!

Matej



From mcepl at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 08:18:51 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:18:51 +0200
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<4449.1240415821@sss.pgh.pa.us> <49EF40C4.6050405@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <bsk5c6-gl4.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-22, 16:07 GMT, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> Those are some really good points.  In the "FOSS needs 
> a central bugtracker" thread, there's an idea of issue trackers 
> communicating with each other.  Theoretically, this would 
> alleviate some, if not all, of the work load of someone having 
> to check two issue trackers, because if one can be consider 
> upstream to the other, then the data can flow with the work 
> only needing to be done in one place.

<rant>
OK, either you are trolling or you are serious and you have some 
brainpower to stand behind your words.

If the former, then read 
http://slashdot.org/features/98/10/13/1423253.shtml very 
carefully and then go and do something useful.

If the latter, then I have a couple of bugs for you to solve:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=452962 -- that should 
be easy, just make periodic XML-RPC requests and store it in the 
database.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=189813 -- OK, this is 
biggie, and you will need to work closely with people around  
http://www.bugzilla.org . On the other hand, I heard they work on 
this, so any real help you can provide to them would be very 
welcome.

And fixing either of these would actually help somebody (me 
included; yes, I would love to click on the button "Move 
upstream" in RH Bugzilla) to fix bugs better. Your suggestion 
(aside from making a lot of work for somebody else, not talking 
about huge costs in hardware and bandwidth -- and yes, they are 
huge, just believe me) doesn't seem to help to anybody.

</rant>

Mat?j



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 08:42:16 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:42:16 +0200
Subject: Fedora 10 conflicts (was: Re: Finding file conflicts)
In-Reply-To: <gsnps5$1bi$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090421091324.GA19497@victor.nirvana>
	<20090421134449.GB26754@wolff.to>
	<20090421202359.22a051de@faldor.intranet>
	<20090421190001.GB29618@victor.nirvana>
	<1240340727.3101.52.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422172221.532aca40@faldor.intranet>
	<gsnps5$1bi$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090423104216.4be9579b@faldor.intranet>

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:06:44 +0200, Kevin wrote:

> Michael Schwendt wrote:
> > => kdeartwork-wallpapers-4.2.2-3.fc10.noarch in updates
> >   File conflict with: kdebase-workspace-wallpapers-4.1.2-14.fc10.i386
> > => kdebase-workspace-wallpapers-4.1.2-14.fc10.i386 in fedora
> >   File conflict with: kdeartwork-wallpapers-4.2.2-3.fc10.noarch
> 
> That's 4.1.2 in fedora vs. 4.2.2 in updates. There's a
> kdebase-workspace-wallpapers-4.2.2-3.fc10 in updates which doesn't have the
> conflicting files. Apparently it didn't make it to your mirror in time (at
> least the one I checked is still missing the file, though it was clearly
> produced by the build which is now in dist-f10-updates:
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=97551 and a
> 4.2.1-7.fc10 build from a previous update is still sitting in the directory
> on the mirror I checked). So I think this can be written off as a transient
> failure.

Not quite. That would be a bug in bodhi if it published metadata for
the 4.2.2-3.fc10 build minus one package (kdebase-workspace-wallpapers).

Instead, what has happened here is that kdebase-workspace-wallpapers
changed to noarch, and that triggered a false positive due to
incomplete/missing multi-arch support. A one-line change in the script
has fixed it... for now (as I don't want the script to deal with problems
in multi-arch repos anyway, such as those extrasrepoclosure can find).

--- conflicts-F10-20090422.log	2009-04-22 21:00:42.000000000 +0200
+++ conflicts-F10-20090423.log	2009-04-23 10:40:09.000000000 +0200
@@ -166,26 +166,6 @@
   File conflict with: normalize-0.7.7-4.fc10.i386
      /usr/share/man/man1/normalize.1.gz
 
-=> kdeartwork-4.2.2-3.fc10.src.rpm
-=> kdeartwork-wallpapers-4.2.2-3.fc10.noarch in updates
-  File conflict with: kdebase-workspace-wallpapers-4.1.2-14.fc10.i386
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Colorado_Farm/metadata.desktop
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Emotion/metadata.desktop
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Golden_Ripples/metadata.desktop
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Green_Concentration/metadata.desktop
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Leafs_Labyrinth/metadata.desktop
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Skeeter_Hawk/metadata.desktop
-
-=> kdebase-workspace-4.1.2-14.fc10.src.rpm
-=> kdebase-workspace-wallpapers-4.1.2-14.fc10.i386 in fedora
-  File conflict with: kdeartwork-wallpapers-4.2.2-3.fc10.noarch
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Colorado_Farm/metadata.desktop
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Emotion/metadata.desktop
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Golden_Ripples/metadata.desktop
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Green_Concentration/metadata.desktop
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Leafs_Labyrinth/metadata.desktop
-     /usr/share/wallpapers/Skeeter_Hawk/metadata.desktop
-
 => libtranslate-0.99-18.fc10.src.rpm
 => libtranslate-0.99-18.fc10.i386 in updates
   File conflict with: surfraw-1.0.7-3.fc8.noarch



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Thu Apr 23 09:01:29 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:01:29 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240477289.2996.8.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 20:38 -0400, Will Woods wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> 
> > What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
> > sliders and stuff is useless?
> > Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?
> 
> Holy hell yes:
> http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png

As an argument for what PulseAudio is doing, that's a complete
non-sequitur. 

The old gnome-volume-control had the facility to show/hide different
mixer elements already -- if you think you _know_ which ones are useful
to expose to the user and which aren't, we had the facility to do that
_already_.

You don't have to do it in such a way that the user _can't_ get at the
extra controls when our heuristics get it wrong (as they _often_ will).

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 09:17:22 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:17:22 +0200
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net>
	<gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090423111722.1eca034c@faldor.intranet>

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 02:33:36 +0200, Kevin wrote:

> Gerry Reno wrote:
> > Just tried to perform 'yum update' on F10 and got this:
> 
> Mirror not synced yet. There was the big Qt 4.5 / KDE 4.2.2 update push, so
> they have a lot of stuff to sync. Please wait a few hours, then retry.
> 
>         Kevin Kofler

I think you've jumped to a false conclusion. Look:

---> Package rpm-devel.i386 0:4.6.0-2.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 for package: rpm-devel
---> Package rpm-libs.i386 0:4.6.0-2.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 for package: rpm-libs

rpm-devel-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 from updates has depsolving problems
--> Missing Dependency: rpm = 4.6.0-2.fc10 is needed by package   
rpm-devel-4.6.0-2.fc10.i386 (updates)


What the heck? Why would the metadata know about rpm-devel-4.6.0-2.fc10
and rpm-libs-4.6.0-2.fc10 but not rpm-4.6.0-2.fc10? They all belong to
the same "rpm" package build-job and update request:

  rpm-4.6.0-2.fc10 bugfix update
  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F10/FEDORA-2009-2670
  bodhi - 2009-04-14 15:57:26
  This update has been pushed to stable

That was a week ago, btw.



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Thu Apr 23 09:33:07 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:33:07 +0200
Subject: X on tty7
Message-ID: <1240479187.16014.2.camel@choeger6>

Hey guys,

after upgrading from f9 to rawhide my X starts on tty7, but no getty
runs on tty1, so I guess inittab got updated somehow. 
But having X on tty7 is not what all the cool kids have ;) and I want to
play with them, so how do I make my fedora behave modern?

Serious: I consider this a bug in the update process, at least X _or_
getty should run on tty1.

regards

Christoph
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From mschwendt at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 09:33:17 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:33:17 +0200
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <49EFC5DB.9010407@verizon.net>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net> <11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>
	<20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49EFC5DB.9010407@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20090423113317.030b312d@faldor.intranet>

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:35:23 -0400, Gerry wrote:

> Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 04:08:26 +0300
> > Manuel Wolfshant <wolfy@> wrote:
> >
> >   
> >> It's much simpler. You just do the update in 2 passes
> >>  - first you download the new packages      # old content is there,
> >> old repodata is there, so no breakage
> >> - second you download the repodata and delete old content #content is 
> >> already there, new repodata will point users to it.
> >>
> >>     
> > You don't even need two passes. See: 
> >
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Mirroring
> >
> > --delete-after --delay-updates 
> >
> > with rsync should (mostly) be atomic. 
> >
> > kevin
> >
> >   
> If the mirrors are following this guideline and rsync works like stated, 
> then why do we keep hitting broken mirrors when there is a big sync?

I'd rather (1) examine your Yum plugins and their configuration, and (2)
verify with your favourite browser that the needed packages are really not
found in the remote repository. Save a copy of the repo metadata directory
_and_ the directory listing as proof.

There's enough evidence that your Yum excludes some packages it should not
exclude. One example ("rpm") given in my previous reply. Here's another:

---> Package netpbm.i386 0:10.35.61-1.fc10 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 for package: netpbm-progs
netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 is needed by package   
netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 is needed by package 
netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 (installed)


The new netpbm from April 2nd is seen, but its sub-packages are not seen
although they should be found in the same metadata. This has nothing to do
with "mirror not in sync" unless bodhi has had a senior moment...

netpbm-10.35.61-1.fc10 bugfix update
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F10/FEDORA-2009-3273
bodhi - 2009-04-02 17:21:01
This update has been pushed to stable



From Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi  Thu Apr 23 09:53:15 2009
From: Juha.Tuomala at iki.fi (Juha Tuomala)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:53:15 +0300
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240347482.30902.118.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211337q7d312ad3p99e3b5e4619e4681@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240347482.30902.118.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904231253.15551.Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi>



On Tuesday 21 April 2009 23:58:02 Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 22:37 +0200, Mark wrote:
> > I'm also playing a bit with the idea that there is one central bug
> > tracking system with ALL (ideally) foss projects in it and that place
> > is the main and upstream place(that's the general idea you all know by
> > now). 
> 
> No. This is not desirable. Forget it, it's never going to happen. Clear
> your mind. Think git, not CVS. Think distributed bug tracking.
> 
> Interoperation, not consolidation.

Yep, that has been suggested by many - in upstream:

  https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=431319


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattup?isi? autoilijoita.



From martin.langhoff at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 10:44:29 2009
From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:44:29 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46a038f90904230344v1831fa11p371cad4d62ae45bb@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was just reading the latest distrowatch weekly and there was an
> interesting article posted there about a centralized bug tracking

Insanity :-)

It's worth following what Canonical is doing with Launchpad's Malone:
adding the ability to link to bugs in other bugtrackers -- and report
events "locally" about bug state changes in the remote bugtracker
("upstream says: fixed in 2.3.3").

With a bit of elbow grease, xmlrpc, rest or ugly screenscraping of the
main bugtracking tools (bugzilla, malone, jira, trac, etc) and some
good thinking of how to "loosely couple" workflows that are likely to
be different, something really good could be put together. A bit like
blog trackback/pingback work.

Also -- I notice a few OpenID supporters on this thread. OpenID is
currently _not_ good, usable or safe infrastructure for the Web. Ben
Laurie has done the most complete analysis of this so far, and we
cannot have a reasonably sane/safe OpenID until browsers support it
natively.

I'd say Ben's writings on this are required reading for any OpenID
implementor (me included).

Please get webbrowser support for safe OpenID to be widespread before
considering it for serious infra.

cheers,



m
--
 martin.langhoff at gmail.com
 martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 11:21:50 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:21:50 +0100
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <gsnmm8$leh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240344905.30902.106.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsnmm8$leh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904231221.50237.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 22 April 2009 19:12:24 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > Google has it right guys, the standard sucks:
> >
> > http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/google-doesnt-use-openid/
>
> No, Google is just showing that they have enough monopoly power to dictate
> whatever proprietary "standard" they feel like. They're really the next M$.
> They cannot be trusted. They're only "friendly" towards Free Software
> insofar as it gives them a lot of software to parasite for proprietary web
> apps at no cost. Just ask yourself why the Affero GPL is banned on Google
> Code.

Having read the post and all the comments, it would appear they've actually 
implemented OpenID 2.0, and the only thing "non-standard" is that, reflecting 
the "testing" status of their project, they're asking for pre-registration of 
sites that want to use their OpenID provider.

>         Kevin Kofler




From jwboyer at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 11:36:07 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:36:07 -0400
Subject: security issues in firefox (fixed in 3.0.9)
In-Reply-To: <gsnio1$6fm$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gsnio1$6fm$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090423113607.GA2456@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 01:05:05PM -0400, Neal Becker wrote:
>
>http://lwn.net/Articles/329565/rss

The updates for this went out yesterday.  Stop posting these
here please.

josh



From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net  Thu Apr 23 11:04:28 2009
From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:04:28 +0300
Subject: Use bash patchlevel as part of RPM version?
In-Reply-To: <1240420535.18570.35.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49ED6F71.2020601@redhat.com>
	<1240336971.30902.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090421185347.GA29618@victor.nirvana>
	<1240343151.30902.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422052222.GA821@victor.nirvana>
	<1240420535.18570.35.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090423110428.GB7553@victor.nirvana>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:15:35PM -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 08:22 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote:
> > There is no difference to the kernel's diffs for version 2.6.29 to
> > 2.6.29.1 like `patch-2.6.29.1.bz2'.
> 
> .. Except for the fact the kernel patch has "2.6.29.1" right in its
> name. The kernel doing it like bash would look like:
> 
> kernel-2.6.29.tar.bz2
> patch-001.bz2

Not sure what you mean, the bash diffs are named like "bash40-017". It
does contain the major/minor/patchlevel versions (it lacks
conventional delimiters and a sane suffix like ".diff" or ".patch",
but that's due to the project's legacy).
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Thu Apr 23 12:00:36 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:00:36 +0800
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <bsk5c6-gl4.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>	<4449.1240415821@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EF40C4.6050405@hidayahonline.org>
	<bsk5c6-gl4.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <49F05864.8080303@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/23/2009 04:18 PM, Matej Cepl wrote:
> On 2009-04-22, 16:07 GMT, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>    
>> Those are some really good points.  In the "FOSS needs
>> a central bugtracker" thread, there's an idea of issue trackers
>> communicating with each other.  Theoretically, this would
>> alleviate some, if not all, of the work load of someone having
>> to check two issue trackers, because if one can be consider
>> upstream to the other, then the data can flow with the work
>> only needing to be done in one place.
>>      
>
> <rant>
> OK, either you are trolling or you are serious and you have some
> brainpower to stand behind your words.
>
> If the former, then read
> http://slashdot.org/features/98/10/13/1423253.shtml very
> carefully and then go and do something useful.
>
> If the latter, then I have a couple of bugs for you to solve:
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=452962 -- that should
> be easy, just make periodic XML-RPC requests and store it in the
> database.
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=189813 -- OK, this is
> biggie, and you will need to work closely with people around
> http://www.bugzilla.org . On the other hand, I heard they work on
> this, so any real help you can provide to them would be very
> welcome.
>
> And fixing either of these would actually help somebody (me
> included; yes, I would love to click on the button "Move
> upstream" in RH Bugzilla) to fix bugs better. Your suggestion
> (aside from making a lot of work for somebody else, not talking
> about huge costs in hardware and bandwidth -- and yes, they are
> huge, just believe me) doesn't seem to help to anybody.
>
> </rant>
>
> Mat?j
>
>    
While I don't agree with your dichotomy, I have to be honest and say 
that, at the moment, I am no way ready to undertake a task like this 
myself right now.

Having said that, the fact that I am not able to do this myself does not 
automatically exclude me from making the suggestion and participating in 
the brainstorming that follows.  I definitely *use* Fedora/Red Hat's 
Bugzilla, so I am speaking from my own experiences with it, and my 
suggestion is to improve that experience.  I realize Fedora comes with 
no official support, so I hope no one thinks I'm expecting any, either.  ;)



From steven at scc.hk  Thu Apr 23 12:33:29 2009
From: steven at scc.hk (Steven James Drinnan)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:33:29 +0800
Subject: IBUS - Sorry
Message-ID: <1240490009.3846.0.camel@laptap.myhome>

Just had another look at ibus. Good to quick is there with alot more
input method. 



From steven at scc.hk  Thu Apr 23 12:34:47 2009
From: steven at scc.hk (Steven James Drinnan)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:34:47 +0800
Subject: Ibus - Sorry
Message-ID: <1240490087.3846.2.camel@laptap.myhome>

Sorry pressed send in error.

But I missed it first because it is not included by default in the live
CD. Maybe something to consider?

Steven




From steven at scc.hk  Thu Apr 23 12:37:16 2009
From: steven at scc.hk (Steven James Drinnan)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:37:16 +0800
Subject: MPX - is in our X server.
Message-ID: <1240490236.3846.5.camel@laptap.myhome>

Just question - I am doing some playing around with some programs and
wanted to activate two mouse pointers. 



From steven at scc.hk  Thu Apr 23 12:39:58 2009
From: steven at scc.hk (Steven James Drinnan)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:39:58 +0800
Subject: MPX - is it in our X server.
Message-ID: <1240490398.3846.8.camel@laptap.myhome>

Just a question - I am doing some playing around with some programs and
wanted to activate two mouse pointers. 

If it is included how do activate another mouse pointer in x. 

Regards steven
 



From mjg at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 13:13:28 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:13:28 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240463778.14173.763.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240447571.14173.753.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090423034043.GA14900@redhat.com>
	<1240463778.14173.763.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090423131328.GA14962@srcf.ucam.org>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:16:18PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 23:40 -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> > Good thing it doesn't happen on other more common cards then.
> > Like say, the emu10k1. 
> > http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/junk/wtf/alsa-mixer-o-doom.jpg
> 
> OK, so there's clearly a bug there.
> 
> Again to take the approach of the PulseAudio cheerleaders: this should
> clearly be reported to the upstream project so it gets resolved. =)

The "bug" is exposing all of the native mixer functionality in the alsa 
mixer implementation and then presenting that in the UI. This is 
precisely the problem that PA's mixer design fixes.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 23 13:46:24 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:46:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090423 changes
Message-ID: <20090423134624.BE7EA1B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Thu Apr 23 06:15:04 UTC 2009

New package perl-B-Hooks-OP-Check
        Wrap OP check callbacks
New package perl-Test-Aggregate
        Aggregate C<*.t> tests to make them run faster
New package photoprint
        Utility for printing digital photographs
New package python-arm4
        Application Reponse Measurement (ARM) V4 Python language bindings
Updated Packages:

deltarpm-3.4-16.fc11
--------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Jonathan Dieter <jdieter at gmail.com> - 3.4-16
- Split drpmsync into a separate subpackage (#489231)


desktop-backgrounds-9.0.0-8
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 9.0.0-8
- fix compat subpackage


erlang-R12B-5.7.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> R12B-5.7
- Updated rpath patch.
- Fixed configure to respect $RPM_OPT_FLAGS.


fedora-logos-11.0.4-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> 11.0.3-1
- update to 11.0.3, adds KDE splash

* Wed Apr 22 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> 11.0.4-1
- update to 11.0.4, fix art to actually be in leonidas theme


gdm-2.26.1-3.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Ray Strode <rstrode at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.1-3
- Add temporary hack to smack down misbehaving PAM modules

* Tue Apr 21 2009 Ray Strode <rstrode at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.1-2
- Stop inactive pam conversations when one succeeds.
  Should fix bug 496234


globus-common-10.2-3.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Mattias Ellert <mattias.ellert at fysast.uu.se> - 10.2-3
- Put GLOBUS_LICENSE file in extracted source tarball

* Thu Apr 16 2009 Mattias Ellert <mattias.ellert at fysast.uu.se> - 10.2-2
- Remove config.guess file


gnome-power-manager-2.26.0-2.fc11
---------------------------------
* Sat Apr 18 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 2.26.0-2
- Fix broken battery capacity percentage reporting


gnomint-0.9.1-3.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Adam Huffman <bloch at verdurin.com> - 0.9.1-3
- fix for bug 496518 - $RPM_OPT_FLAGS not used


javasqlite-20090409-3.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 20090409-3
- Disable extension loading due to security concerns.


leonidas-kde-theme-0.2.2-4.fc11
-------------------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik at redhat.com> 0.2.2-4
- our own logos for both fedora and generic version


libatasmart-0.12-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Lennart Poettering <lpoetter at redhat.com> 0.12-2
- Properly handle some ST and FUJITSU drive attributes. (rhbz 496087, 497107)


libchewing-0.3.2-8.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Ding-Yi Chen <dchen at redhat dot com> - 0.3.2-8
- Fix [Bug 496968] - libchewing-debuginfo does not contain sources.


pulseaudio-0.9.15-11.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> 0.9.15-11
- Bug #497214
  Do not start pulseaudio daemon if PULSE_SERVER directs pulse elsewhere.


tsclient-2.0.2-3.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.0.2-3
- Fix some wrong ids in the glade file to make the ui work (#485976)


wesnoth-1.6.1-2.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Debarshi Ray <rishi at fedoraproject.org> - 1.6.1-2
- Respect $RPM_OPT_FLAGS, BZ 496897.


xorg-x11-drv-nouveau-0.0.12-31.20090421git47bb00f.fc11
------------------------------------------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 0.0.12-30.20090421git47bb00f
- fix for rh#489101

* Tue Apr 21 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 0.0.12-31.20090421git47bb00f
- fix for rh#496559


Summary:
Added Packages: 4
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 16
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.i586 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.i586 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.i386 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit)
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit)
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.x86_64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.ppc requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.ppc requires libnautilus-burn.so.4
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	gnome-python2-nautilus-cd-burner-2.26.0-1.fc11.ppc64 requires libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit)
	kimono-4.2.2-5.fc11.ppc64 requires libmono.so.0(VER_1)(64bit)
	kimono-4.2.2-5.fc11.ppc64 requires libmono.so.0()(64bit)
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	qyoto-devel-4.2.2-5.fc11.ppc64 requires mono-devel
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	sublib-0.9-4.fc11.ppc64 requires mono(mscorlib) = 0:2.0.0.0
	sublib-0.9-4.fc11.ppc64 requires mono(System) = 0:2.0.0.0





From ajax at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 13:59:39 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:59:39 -0400
Subject: MPX - is it in our X server.
In-Reply-To: <1240490398.3846.8.camel@laptap.myhome>
References: <1240490398.3846.8.camel@laptap.myhome>
Message-ID: <1240495179.13640.1060.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 20:39 +0800, Steven James Drinnan wrote:
> Just a question - I am doing some playing around with some programs and
> wanted to activate two mouse pointers. 
> 
> If it is included how do activate another mouse pointer in x. 

It's not included, so you don't.

- ajax
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From greno at verizon.net  Thu Apr 23 14:56:40 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:56:40 -0400
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <20090423113317.030b312d@faldor.intranet>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net> <11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>	<20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49EFC5DB.9010407@verizon.net>
	<20090423113317.030b312d@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <49F081A8.9050908@verizon.net>

Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:35:23 -0400, Gerry wrote:
>
>   
>> Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>>     
>>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 04:08:26 +0300
>>> Manuel Wolfshant <wolfy@> wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> It's much simpler. You just do the update in 2 passes
>>>>  - first you download the new packages      # old content is there,
>>>> old repodata is there, so no breakage
>>>> - second you download the repodata and delete old content #content is 
>>>> already there, new repodata will point users to it.
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> You don't even need two passes. See: 
>>>
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Mirroring
>>>
>>> --delete-after --delay-updates 
>>>
>>> with rsync should (mostly) be atomic. 
>>>
>>> kevin
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>> If the mirrors are following this guideline and rsync works like stated, 
>> then why do we keep hitting broken mirrors when there is a big sync?
>>     
>
> I'd rather (1) examine your Yum plugins and their configuration, and (2)
> verify with your favourite browser that the needed packages are really not
> found in the remote repository. Save a copy of the repo metadata directory
> _and_ the directory listing as proof.
>
> There's enough evidence that your Yum excludes some packages it should not
> exclude. One example ("rpm") given in my previous reply. Here's another:
>
> ---> Package netpbm.i386 0:10.35.61-1.fc10 set to be updated
> --> Processing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 for package: netpbm-progs
> netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 from installed has depsolving problems
>   --> Missing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 is needed by package   
> netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
> Error: Missing Dependency: netpbm = 10.35.58-1.fc10 is needed by package 
> netpbm-progs-10.35.58-1.fc10.i386 (installed)
>
>
> The new netpbm from April 2nd is seen, but its sub-packages are not seen
> although they should be found in the same metadata. This has nothing to do
> with "mirror not in sync" unless bodhi has had a senior moment...
>
> netpbm-10.35.61-1.fc10 bugfix update
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F10/FEDORA-2009-3273
> bodhi - 2009-04-02 17:21:01
> This update has been pushed to stable
>
>   
It was something with the metadata on this machine because after a 
couple hours the problem was still there so I did a 'yum clean all' and 
then it straightened out and 'yum update' began working again.

Regards,
Gerry



From james at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 23 15:01:06 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:01:06 -0400
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <49EFC908.80508@BitWagon.com>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net> <11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>
	<20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com> <49EFC908.80508@BitWagon.com>
Message-ID: <1240498866.9658.923.camel@code.and.org>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 18:48 -0700, John Reiser wrote:
> Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > You don't even need two passes. See: 
> > 
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Mirroring
> > 
> > --delete-after --delay-updates 
> > 
> > with rsync should (mostly) be atomic. 
> 
> Is this [still] true even with "rolling rawhide" where updates
> happen as builds are completed?

 There are at least two sides to this.

1. On the theory side with a yum from the last year or so and F-11+ (ie.
--unique-md-filenames turned on) a mirror can do:

        i. Download new files.
        ii. Download changed files, exlcuding repomd.xml (shouldn't
        happen).
        iii. Download new repomd.xml to repomd.xml.tmp
        iv. rename(repomd.xml.tmp, repomd.xml)
        v. Delete old files.

...following this plan means that the entire repo. on the mirror should
update atomically at step #iv. And rsync --delte-after --delay-updates
is almost the same (it merges steps #ii and #iii).
 Note that you can still get 404s when you are using 2+ mirrors, one of
which is at step #v and one of which is still at step #i (or not started
yet), but you shouldn't be able to get bad data.


2. On the practical side, Fedora doesn't control the mirrors so "we"
don't know that they are all doing the above for updates. The mirrors
don't sync at the same time or on the same schedule, they sync different
amounts of the tree (so take different amounts of time to complete).
 Which means things like if the mirror closest to you syncs every 6
hours, and it's been 3 hours since the rawhide compose ... you're
probably not going to have a good time.

-- 
James Antill - james at fedoraproject.org
"I'd just like to see a realistic approach to updates via
 packages." -- Les Mikesell



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 15:31:31 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:31:31 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 08:41, David Woodhouse (dwmw2 at infradead.org) wrote:

> 
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 11:50 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > On 04/23/2009 07:09 AM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Will Woods  wrote:
> > >> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
> > >>> sliders and stuff is useless?
> > >>> Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?
> > >> Holy hell yes:
> > >> http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png
> > >>
> > > 
> > > Wow that's great. I wish my soundcard (Audigy4) had that many
> > > controls. It's only about half of it.
> > 
> > Thank $deity. Very few people really want to fiddle with that many
> > controls. That UI is clearly not a sane one.
> 
> Probably true -- and there's a very good case for simplifying it by
> _default_.
> 
> But just breaking certain features, including "play audio through line
> in", or "set the speaker volumes as the user wants them" is really not
> the way to do it.

Still I think that playing audio through line-in a pretty exotic
feature. If you want to do weird stuff like this, go to the ALSA
mixer. It's not that PA takes that away from you. You can always
bypass PA if you really feel that you need 555 different controls.

> I can't play DVDs through my TV from my laptop at the moment either --
> the only way I could get sufficient volume before was to plug in some
> external speakers (which automatically turns off the internal speakers)
> and then use gnome-volume-control to turn the internal speakers back
> _on_ again. I can't do that any more.

You can, just bypass PA.

If you want to do weird stuff, use weird tools. Don't expect us to
support all the exotic use cases minds could come up with to support
in a single simple UI.

> The proposals I've seen to work around PulseAudio's problems have been
> ridiculous -- running audio over the network using PulseAudio,
> introducing a bunch of latency which wouldn't otherwise be there, was a
> stupid suggestion even if the other box wasn't running Windows. The
> hardware has a line-in socket for a reason -- are we just going to
> advise Fedora users to tape over it and pretend it isn't there?

The point of line-in is that you can record from it.

Doing line-in/mic feedback to line-out is something I deliberetaly don't
plan to support in PA. A sound card is not an amp.

> And the response to Stephen's need to control bass and treble speakers
> individually was stupid too -- you _don't_ want to just tie them
> together. Depending on what he's playing, he might need to adjust the
> relative volume of bass vs. treble. That's not an unreasonable
> desire.

That was no response. That's what Stephen suggested himself (I
assume are referring to 496981).

A laptop with integrated bass speakers is certainly not the type of
machine I have on my list as the most common piece of
hardware. Actaully I still cannot believe that such a thing exists.

What complicates the matter is that we cannot properly deduce if some
weird system has bass speakers connected to "Master mono" or not. It
could be something completely different. tbh I have not the slightest
clue how this should be exposed.

> It's not good enough to just say "No. I know your hardware can do that
> really well and it used to work, but we have decreed that your use case
> isn't important so you're not allowed to do it that way any more".
> 
> That just sucks.

I mean, you guys complain over over-simplification. Now you are
over-simplifying this entire story. Just because PA hides many exotic
'features' it doesn't mean you cannot access them. You can always
bypass PA and get the complex ALSA mixer. Try 'alsamixer -c0'

This whole thread is so pointless. The same people just keep repeating
the same issues over and over.

Let me summarize this:

1) PA doesn't support switching of different inputs (i.e. Mic
vs. Line-In) and outputs (Headphones vs internal Speakers) of a sound
card. There are two bugs filed about this. Yes, we need to support
this in PA, and we will. But it is a major PITA. ALSA has no usable
API for enumerating inputs and outputs. While the ALSA folks
acknoweledge that this is broken in ALSA this is not going to be fixed
anytime soon on their side. Now, I agree that this is actually a
bigger problem. So for F12 I will hack up input/output enumeration
that makes the best of the situation and that will hopefully work for
many cases, but most likely not all of them. This won't happen for
F11. Until then, do as the release notes suggest and drop to a tool
like alsamixer. In most cases the default mixer initialization
database of alsa should set up the right thing for you anyway and not
make this necessary. In many cases it doesn't, some of them because
there is no 'right thing', in others because the db is
incomplete. Thing is, without patches to the db this won't get fixed.

The main reason why this issue actually has become a problem recently
is that modern cards don't do the jack switching in hw anymore but leave
that for the software and provide jack sesning. Jack sensing is now
supported for two chips or so in ALSA but there is no code that would
actually make use of the jack sensing interfaces. PA should of course
make use of it. Unfortunately none of the sound cards I posess
currently is supported by ALSA jack sensing, so I cannot really work
on js right now.

2) People are not aware that pavucontrol allows you to switch between
several profiles during runtime. A profile is 'analog stereo',
'analog 5.1', 'digital spdif' and so on. Unfortunately this is not
exposed in g-v-c. I am pretty sure it will in F12. Install pavucontrol
and you can even switch these profiles during playback without having
your music stop in F11 already. It's actually pretty hot.

3) People want to do exotic things like (mis-)using their sound cards
as analog mixer for multiple analog sources. Or for driving internal
and external speakers from the same sound card at the same time. I
think this doesn't make much sense and won't support it in PA. If you
want to use it, drop to the raw alsa mixer.

4) People want 568 different elements in the mixer. They probably
should go visit a doctor, or just bypass PA by using a tool like
alsamixer. No chance in the world I will ever support this in PA.

5) People want PA to use a different mixer control than 'Master'. I
don't think this is a good thing to do. There is a workaround for this
as mentioned, but this is one of the most basic things a driver should
get right. Hence, fix it in the driver. I am not planning to support
this beyond allowing you to edit some config files to set this up.

6) There are some exotic pieces of hw around. Like that monster laptop
with integrated bass speakers connected to 'Master Mono'. Not sure how
we should support this at all and if we even could identify these
cases. Given how rare these devices are, this is not a top-priority to
fix for me, but I have it on my list. In the meantime, drop to the raw
alsa mixer please.

7) There are default mixer initialization problems. alsa-utils now
ships with a database of 'sensible' default mixer initialization
settings, i.e. settings where playback PCM is routed at a 'reasonable'
level to the outputs, and input PCM from the mic. That db is not
complete. Some HDa cards have weird switches that need to be set
correctly for any output happen at all. That db is the right place to
do that. So don't complain that PA doesn't expose tht switch! Instead,
just add the correct setting to the db.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 15:32:54 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:32:54 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240477289.2996.8.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240477289.2996.8.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <20090423153254.GB24372@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 10:01, David Woodhouse (dwmw2 at infradead.org) wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 20:38 -0400, Will Woods wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> > 
> > > What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
> > > sliders and stuff is useless?
> > > Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?
> > 
> > Holy hell yes:
> > http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png
> 
> As an argument for what PulseAudio is doing, that's a complete
> non-sequitur. 
> 
> The old gnome-volume-control had the facility to show/hide different
> mixer elements already -- if you think you _know_ which ones are useful
> to expose to the user and which aren't, we had the facility to do that
> _already_.
> 
> You don't have to do it in such a way that the user _can't_ get at the
> extra controls when our heuristics get it wrong (as they _often_ will).

First of all, these are no 'heuristics'.

Secondly, you _can_ get at the extra controls by dropping to alsamixer.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mcepl at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 16:06:09 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:06:09 +0200
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<4449.1240415821@sss.pgh.pa.us> <49EF40C4.6050405@hidayahonline.org>
	<bsk5c6-gl4.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<49F05864.8080303@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <h8g6c6-1b4.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-23, 12:00 GMT, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> Having said that, the fact that I am not able to do this myself 
> does not automatically exclude me from making the suggestion 
> and participating in the brainstorming that follows.  
> I definitely *use* Fedora/Red Hat's Bugzilla, so I am speaking 
> from my own experiences with it, and my suggestion is to 
> improve that experience.  I realize Fedora comes with no 
> official support, so I hope no one thinks I'm expecting any, 
> either.  ;)

Thanks for taking my rant well, but trust me ... I went through 
more bugzilla bug reports than most of the people here (I am 
employed as bug triager at Red Hat). On the top of not that fast 
bugzilla I use a lot of Greasemonkey scripts so my pages are 
a little bit slower.

But still there are ways how to make it working (and I do every 
workday) ... for example you can Ctrl-<click> couple of tabs from 
your query and let them download on the background while you work 
on the first one.

If the speed of bugzilla was the biggest problem we have, we 
would be most lucky people in the world.

And do please read that Alan Cox's article ... it is one of the 
finest pieces of writing on open source development I have ever 
seen (and as a former lawyer I read a lot).

Best,

Matej



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Thu Apr 23 16:44:30 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:44:30 +0800
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <h8g6c6-1b4.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>	<4449.1240415821@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EF40C4.6050405@hidayahonline.org>	<bsk5c6-gl4.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>	<49F05864.8080303@hidayahonline.org>
	<h8g6c6-1b4.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <49F09AEE.5070304@hidayahonline.org>

On 04/24/2009 12:06 AM, Matej Cepl wrote:
> And do please read that Alan Cox's article ... it is one of the
> finest pieces of writing on open source development I have ever
> seen (and as a former lawyer I read a lot).
I did read it before posting my reply.



From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Thu Apr 23 16:45:47 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:45:47 -0500
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <1240498866.9658.923.camel@code.and.org>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net> <11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>
	<20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49EFC908.80508@BitWagon.com>
	<1240498866.9658.923.camel@code.and.org>
Message-ID: <20090423164547.GA916020@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org> said:
> ...following this plan means that the entire repo. on the mirror should
> update atomically at step #iv. And rsync --delte-after --delay-updates
> is almost the same (it merges steps #ii and #iii).

There is still a big assumption in there: that mirrors will only sync
from an in-sync mirror.  If a mirror starts syncing from the master
while new content is being pushed (IIRC the primary masters do not use
the equivalent of --delay-updates), the mirror will get an incomplete
sync.

-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 17:33:47 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:33:47 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423131328.GA14962@srcf.ucam.org>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240447571.14173.753.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090423034043.GA14900@redhat.com>
	<1240463778.14173.763.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090423131328.GA14962@srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <1240508027.14173.776.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 14:13 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:16:18PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 23:40 -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> > > Good thing it doesn't happen on other more common cards then.
> > > Like say, the emu10k1. 
> > > http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/junk/wtf/alsa-mixer-o-doom.jpg
> > 
> > OK, so there's clearly a bug there.
> > 
> > Again to take the approach of the PulseAudio cheerleaders: this should
> > clearly be reported to the upstream project so it gets resolved. =)
> 
> The "bug" is exposing all of the native mixer functionality in the alsa 
> mixer implementation and then presenting that in the UI. This is 
> precisely the problem that PA's mixer design fixes.

No, it isn't. Look closely at both the 'hilarious' screenshots: most of
the channels are duplicated (in Dave's case) or shown over ten times (in
Will's). That's why the whole thing is *so* long.

Just displaying all the available channels wouldn't be a bug in either
case.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 17:34:43 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:34:43 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240432603.22084.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240432603.22084.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240508083.720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 16:36 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:51 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> 
> > I used to be able to just place my mouse over the icon
> > and use the scroll wheel. I'm just noticing the shiny new mixer app
> > doesn't seem to support that either...
> 
> Sure it does.

Well apparently my applet got screwed up somehow. Nuking it and
restarting fixed it.

> > How about a command line interface to libcanberra?
>
> Try canberra-gtk-play.
>
> You are trying too hard to complain, I think...

That's in libcanberra-gtk2 so I didn't see it when I looked in the
libcanberra package. Why the hell does it depend on GTK? Why do you need
GTK to just play a frickin' sound?

Bloat.
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From nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU  Thu Apr 23 17:35:22 2009
From: nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Fernando Lopez-Lezcano)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:35:22 -0700
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 10:22 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> > I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
> > pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
> > I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.
> 
> PulseAudio is the default sound solution in Fedora, so all packages using
> sound SHOULD support it.
> 
> IMHO, we should:
> * find some solution for JACK apps to work out of the box, without
> reconfiguring PulseAudio to work on top of JACK. Maybe this involves
> running JACK on top of PulseAudio (something which currently doesn't work
> because JACK does not support non-mmap ALSA devices nor the native
> PulseAudio protocol)

I think it is clear from the thread (and I arrived to it late - I was in
LAC2009), but just in case:

NO.

That solution (Jack on top of PA) does not work not because of mmap
access requirements of Jack. It does not work because Jack and PA are
_conceptually_ different and cater to different segments of the audio
users of Fedora and other distros. 

Jack is designed for very very low latency. Jack needs access to the
hardware devices. It cannot and should not run on "top of something
else". The requirement is not capricious. It is designed that way, and
works very well. Please don't break it. 

After I don't know how many Fedora releases that incorporated
(prematurely) PA, PA and Jack developers are starting to talk to make an
audio workstation that has both installed work, let's leave them to work
things out. At least the proposed scheme is an improvement over things
just not working.

-- Fernando


> maybe this involves starting up JACK when needed and
> having it load the JACK modules into PulseAudio and rerouting running
> PulseAudio streams to JACK at runtime (which can be done without
> interrupting the PulseAudio streams - the problem with that solution is
> that it breaks support for multiple output devices, which work just fine
> when using PulseAudio directly), maybe something else, but in any case a
> solution is needed to make things just work.
> * once that's done, make it a requirement that sound MUST work with
> PulseAudio without manual configuration. PulseAudio MUST be the default in
> all sound-using applications. JACK SHOULD only be used if PulseAudio (and
> any of the compatible APIs, e.g. ALSA, ESD etc.) is not supported (and as I
> explained above, it needs to interoperate with PulseAudio more than it
> currently does). Likewise, aRts (the deprecated KDE 3 sound server) SHOULD
> only be used if outputting directly to PulseAudio is not possible.
> 
> It makes no sense to have a sound server configured by default and then have
> assorted applications not working with it. It also makes no sense to have a
> whole set of applications (JACK-using applications) require manual
> reconfiguration of the system according to a readme file shipped with the
> jack-audio-connection-kit package to even work at all.
> 
>         Kevin Kofler
> 



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 17:38:45 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:38:45 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240508325.14173.779.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 17:31 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:

> Still I think that playing audio through line-in a pretty exotic
> feature. If you want to do weird stuff like this, go to the ALSA
> mixer. It's not that PA takes that away from you. You can always
> bypass PA if you really feel that you need 555 different controls.

To reiterate, I at least am not proposing that gnome-volume-control
support all these cases. g-v-c should support profile switching and
input switching, and have a single volume control that actually works
properly on all hardware. That would be enough.

All I want beyond that is for there to be a GUI mixer that provides full
channel control available in the default install for all editions of
Fedora, *alongside* Pulse-level mixers like the new-skool g-v-c. Only
providing alsamixer would be a serious regression - most people don't
know that it exists, or know how to use it. And most people, infamously,
don't read the release notes. This isn't our fault, but it's something
we should take into account.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 17:43:02 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:43:02 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240508083.720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240432603.22084.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240508083.720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090423174302.GA14359@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 12:34, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> > > How about a command line interface to libcanberra?
> >
> > Try canberra-gtk-play.
> >
> > You are trying too hard to complain, I think...
> 
> That's in libcanberra-gtk2 so I didn't see it when I looked in the
> libcanberra package. Why the hell does it depend on GTK? Why do you need
> GTK to just play a frickin' sound?

Among some other things this tools uses the GtkSettings framework to
find the right sound theme to play sounds, so that it matches the
sounds from the rest of the desktop.

> Bloat.

Yes, I love you too. And I love your friendly, constructive and
educated comments. What would I do without these enlightening insights!

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 17:43:55 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:43:55 -0700
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240508635.14173.781.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 03:29 -0500, King InuYasha wrote:

> However, I severely doubt Red Hat or the Fedora Project will allow the
> separation of bug trackers at this time for the simple reason that
> Fedora bugs are often tied to Red Hat bugs. All Red Hat people would
> have to do is tag a bug for RHEL in addition to Fedora. This kind of
> bug tracking simplicity is something I doubt they would be willing to
> give up.

Well, er, not really. Ironically, not being able to do that is one of
the biggest limitations of Bugzilla. You can't tag a bug on b.r.c as
being in both Fedora and RHEL. The Product field can only be set to
Fedora *or* RHEL, not both. If you really need to track an issue that
affects both, you need two reports.

(Since the Bugzilla flow for RHEL is rather different from and more
rigorous than the one for Fedora, this is likely to be needed in any
case).
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 17:46:10 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:46:10 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <1240508771.720.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 08:41 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> And the response to Stephen's need to control bass and treble speakers
> individually was stupid too -- you _don't_ want to just tie them
> together. Depending on what he's playing, he might need to adjust the
> relative volume of bass vs. treble. That's not an unreasonable desire.

You abstract it and present it in the UI as a volume slider and a "tone"
slider. 

hwvol = vol;
bassvol = vol * tone;

Which is the kind of stuff PA *should* be doing. But Stephen is a fringe
nutjob for owning such uncommon hardware, and PA is never going to
support it.

> It's not good enough to just say "No. I know your hardware can do that
> really well and it used to work, but we have decreed that your use case
> isn't important so you're not allowed to do it that way any more".
> 
> That just sucks.

+1

Thank god, someone else has some sanity. :P
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 17:47:17 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:47:17 -0700
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <46a038f90904230344v1831fa11p371cad4d62ae45bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<46a038f90904230344v1831fa11p371cad4d62ae45bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240508837.14173.784.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 12:44 +0200, Martin Langhoff wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Mark <markg85 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I was just reading the latest distrowatch weekly and there was an
> > interesting article posted there about a centralized bug tracking
> 
> Insanity :-)
> 
> It's worth following what Canonical is doing with Launchpad's Malone:
> adding the ability to link to bugs in other bugtrackers -- and report
> events "locally" about bug state changes in the remote bugtracker
> ("upstream says: fixed in 2.3.3").

Our Bugzilla already supports this. Every bug has an "External Bugs"
section (between the Attachments bit and the bit where you can enter
additional comments). It supports a lot of external sites, including the
biggies - freedesktop, KDE, GNOME, Launchpad, Debian and Novell.

(The status tracking doesn't seem to work with all external sites,
though.)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From Jochen at herr-schmitt.de  Thu Apr 23 17:56:04 2009
From: Jochen at herr-schmitt.de (Jochen Schmitt)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:56:04 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240508837.14173.784.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>	<46a038f90904230344v1831fa11p371cad4d62ae45bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240508837.14173.784.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49F0ABB4.1000003@herr-schmitt.de>

Adam Williamson schrieb:
> Our Bugzilla already supports this. Every bug has an "External Bugs"
> section (between the Attachments bit and the bit where you can enter
> additional comments). It supports a lot of external sites, including the
> biggies - freedesktop, KDE, GNOME, Launchpad, Debian and Novell.
>   
On disadvantage is the inpossibllity to add custon entries descriping the
externel bug tracking system.

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 17:44:59 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:44:59 -0700
Subject: X on tty7
In-Reply-To: <1240479187.16014.2.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240479187.16014.2.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <1240508699.14173.782.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 11:33 +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> Hey guys,
> 
> after upgrading from f9 to rawhide my X starts on tty7, but no getty
> runs on tty1, so I guess inittab got updated somehow. 
> But having X on tty7 is not what all the cool kids have ;) and I want to
> play with them, so how do I make my fedora behave modern?
> 
> Serious: I consider this a bug in the update process, at least X _or_
> getty should run on tty1.

X is on tty1 if you're using kernel modesetting (which is default for
radeon and intel, for most hardware), still on tty7 if not (all other
hardware).
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 18:20:05 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:20:05 +0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423131328.GA14962@srcf.ucam.org>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240463778.14173.763.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090423131328.GA14962@srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <200904232320.06169.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Thursday 23 April 2009 18:13:28 Matthew Garrett wrote:
>
> The "bug" is exposing all of the native mixer functionality in the alsa
> mixer implementation and then presenting that in the UI. This is
> precisely the problem that PA's mixer design fixes.
>

Exposing mixer functionality isn't a bug!
If someone has a sound card which has some advanced controls
(e.g. bass/treble) and you're trying (very hard) to hide them,
you aren't doing any good to that guy.
He bought that card - he deserves the right to use all it's functionality.

Suren



From james at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 23 18:39:13 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:39:13 -0400
Subject: F10: yum update broken
In-Reply-To: <20090423164547.GA916020@hiwaay.net>
References: <49EFB2E0.2020403@verizon.net> <gsod10$rth$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49EFBA9A.8040700@verizon.net> <11296.1240448645@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49EFBF8A.5040602@nobugconsulting.ro>
	<20090422191828.2f61e943@ohm.scrye.com> <49EFC908.80508@BitWagon.com>
	<1240498866.9658.923.camel@code.and.org>
	<20090423164547.GA916020@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <1240511953.9658.1145.camel@code.and.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 11:45 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org> said:
> > ...following this plan means that the entire repo. on the mirror should
> > update atomically at step #iv. And rsync --delte-after --delay-updates
> > is almost the same (it merges steps #ii and #iii).
> 
> There is still a big assumption in there: that mirrors will only sync
> from an in-sync mirror.

 I think you mean they won't sync against a mirror that is syncing.
AFAIK this can/should be true. Either the mirrors should be using rsync
against the master (and should be using delete-after --delay-updates),
or they should be using reposync against a mirror.


-- 
James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>
Fedora



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Thu Apr 23 18:18:32 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:18:32 +0200
Subject: X on tty7
In-Reply-To: <1240508699.14173.782.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240479187.16014.2.camel@choeger6>
	<1240508699.14173.782.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240510712.16014.6.camel@choeger6>

Forgot to mention: I am using KMS on intel gfx.
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From maxamillion at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 18:47:47 2009
From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:47:47 -0500
Subject: Rawhide debuginfo packages with no sources
In-Reply-To: <49EF496A.9040207@gmail.com>
References: <200904082307.44364.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<1240350473.3101.68.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49EE582D.1090404@gmail.com> <200904221823.03767.ville.skytta@iki.fi>
	<49EF496A.9040207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f12087800904231147y62664caes2aef38fdd5a2ce37@mail.gmail.com>

I am happy to say that my three packages from the list now have proper
debuginfo packages and have been accepted for Fedora 11 Preview.

-Adam

-- 
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
---------------------------------------------------------
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments



From pemboa at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 18:58:56 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:58:56 -0500
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:29 AM, King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:11 AM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Basil Mohamed Gohar
>> <abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org> wrote:
>>
>> > ?3. Red Hat Bugzilla is SLOW. ?I'm serious. ?It's that big of an issue
>> > ? ? for me. ?I hope having our own would make it "go faster".
>>
>>
>> How slow is it? And how is moving to a new buzilla going to help with
>> that? I use it regularly enough, I haven't noticed anything special
>> about it of late.
>>
>
> How had you not noticed how slow it is? For me, on average it takes
> approximately 2.5sec to load a page. Red Hat Bugzilla takes approximately
> 15-20sec to load a page.

I cannot replicate this on one machine so far, I'll be trying another.
Are there any pages that are specifically bad? And wouldn't a thick
client which uses the XML-RPC interface to connect to multiple IMSs be
more useful that just playing catch with what ever IMS you prefer at
the time?

The rest of your post is irrelevant to my question.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 19:12:35 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:12:35 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net> 
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net> 
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <e76492710904231212n17a540a9va552019d88f8ea02@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:20 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 04/23/2009 07:09 AM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Will Woods ?wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 19:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>>>
>>>> What do you mean? Having full control of your soundcard with all the
>>>> sliders and stuff is useless?
>>>> Not displaying everything 1-1 and hiding sliders is an improvement?
>>> Holy hell yes:
>>> http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png
>>>
>>
>> Wow that's great. I wish my soundcard (Audigy4) had that many
>> controls. It's only about half of it.
>
> Thank $deity. Very few people really want to fiddle with that many
> controls. That UI is clearly not a sane one.
>

Fedora amazes me. It teaches me something new every day. The other
day, I learned that there are people on the surface of the planet who
would push ctrl-alt-bs accidentally. Now, I see that there are folks
who don't want full control over the capabilities of their hardware.

I would never have imagined hiding soundcard functionality could be
thought as an enhancement. My Audigy4 has even more controls than the
image that was posted. And I was glad to be able to fiddle with all of
them. Sure there are some controls that I don't need. But I can opt to
not display them in kmix.

But there is one thing that I miss. These controls used to be
classified in tabs. One tab was showing the output controls the other
was showing input controls etc. Does anyone know who/what made these
tabs disappear in kmix?

Orcan



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 19:18:54 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:18:54 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240514334.720.134.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 17:31 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Still I think that playing audio through line-in a pretty exotic
> feature. If you want to do weird stuff like this, go to the ALSA
> mixer. It's not that PA takes that away from you. You can always
> bypass PA if you really feel that you need 555 different controls.

Yes, monitoring what you're recording on the line in is SUCH an unusual
need! Just think of what I'm doing as monitoring a recording without
actually recording.

If you want Pulseaudio to ever be more than a toy for Aunt Tillie,
you're going to have to pull your head out of your ass.

> > I can't play DVDs through my TV from my laptop at the moment either --
> > the only way I could get sufficient volume before was to plug in some
> > external speakers (which automatically turns off the internal speakers)
> > and then use gnome-volume-control to turn the internal speakers back
> > _on_ again. I can't do that any more.
> 
> You can, just bypass PA.
> 
> If you want to do weird stuff, use weird tools. Don't expect us to
> support all the exotic use cases minds could come up with to support
> in a single simple UI.
> 
> > The proposals I've seen to work around PulseAudio's problems have been
> > ridiculous -- running audio over the network using PulseAudio,
> > introducing a bunch of latency which wouldn't otherwise be there, was a
> > stupid suggestion even if the other box wasn't running Windows. The
> > hardware has a line-in socket for a reason -- are we just going to
> > advise Fedora users to tape over it and pretend it isn't there?
> 
> The point of line-in is that you can record from it.
> 
> Doing line-in/mic feedback to line-out is something I deliberetaly don't
> plan to support in PA.

It's called "input monitoring" and it's not unusual. Why is someone with
no apparent musical or audio recording background in charge of core
Fedora audio infrastructure?

> A sound card is not an amp.

I don't want it to amplify, in fact that's exactly what I don't want. I
just want it to pass line-in through to the amplified speakers as
untouched as possible. I want 0dB. How many different ways do I have to
explain this before you get it?

> > And the response to Stephen's need to control bass and treble speakers
> > individually was stupid too -- you _don't_ want to just tie them
> > together. Depending on what he's playing, he might need to adjust the
> > relative volume of bass vs. treble. That's not an unreasonable
> > desire.
> 
> That was no response. That's what Stephen suggested himself (I
> assume are referring to 496981).
> 
> A laptop with integrated bass speakers is certainly not the type of
> machine I have on my list as the most common piece of
> hardware. Actaully I still cannot believe that such a thing exists.

So apparently it is Fedora policy to only support common hardware.

> What complicates the matter is that we cannot properly deduce if some
> weird system has bass speakers connected to "Master mono" or not. It
> could be something completely different. tbh I have not the slightest
> clue how this should be exposed.

You expose it in the UI as a volume and a "tone" slider. Or "bass" and
"treble" sliders. Christ, have you ever looked at real physical stereo?
The 'exposure' is the easy part. Yes, the low level details are probably
going to be a bitch. But handling those kinds of details are your *JOB*.

> > It's not good enough to just say "No. I know your hardware can do that
> > really well and it used to work, but we have decreed that your use case
> > isn't important so you're not allowed to do it that way any more".
> > 
> > That just sucks.
> 
> I mean, you guys complain over over-simplification. Now you are
> over-simplifying this entire story. Just because PA hides many exotic
> 'features' it doesn't mean you cannot access them. You can always
> bypass PA and get the complex ALSA mixer. Try 'alsamixer -c0'

All I want is for the taskbar mixer applet to adjust PCM instead of
Master. THAT'S ALL I !@#$ING NEED, LENNART! I don't even want it to be
exposed in ui. A secret daemon.conf option would be JUST FINE.

> This whole thread is so pointless. The same people just keep repeating
> the same issues over and over.

Because you and Bastien Nocera are being defensive, stubborn
thick-headed dicks who aren't listening. Yes, we get it. Disagreeing
with the almighty Lennart Poettering is a pointless waste of time. Don't
bother even trying!

> Let me summarize this:
> 
> The main reason why this issue actually has become a problem recently
> is that modern cards don't do the jack switching in hw anymore but leave
> that for the software and provide jack sesning. Jack sensing is now
> supported for two chips or so in ALSA but there is no code that would
> actually make use of the jack sensing interfaces. PA should of course
> make use of it. Unfortunately none of the sound cards I posess
> currently is supported by ALSA jack sensing, so I cannot really work
> on js right now.

I've had this motherboard for 3 years. I don't give a shit what "modern"
cards do or don't do. All I want is for what worked before to continue
working.

> 3) People want to do exotic things like (mis-)using their sound cards
> as analog mixer for multiple analog sources. Or for driving internal
> and external speakers from the same sound card at the same time. I
> think this doesn't make much sense and won't support it in PA. If you
> want to use it, drop to the raw alsa mixer.

> 5) People want PA to use a different mixer control than 'Master'. I
> don't think this is a good thing to do. There is a workaround for this
> as mentioned, but this is one of the most basic things a driver should
> get right. Hence, fix it in the driver. I am not planning to support
> this beyond allowing you to edit some config files to set this up.

I don't care what you think. This isn't about what you think. This is
about what the end user wants. Namely ME. Clearly, from this thread and
plenty of others in the past, you don't give two shits about what your
end users want.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 19:19:17 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:19:17 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 01:31 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Wed, 22.04.09 14:51, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:
> 
> > > > > >  Can I at least get a secret gconf key to do what
> > > > > > I want? :P
> > > > > 
> > > > > The volume control uses PulseAudio, it doesn't use ALSA directly
> > > > > anymore, so no, there's no secret GConf key for that.
> > > > 
> > > > So a PulseAudio config option then. Do I have to write the patch myself?
> > > 
> > > Probably not a PA config option either.
> > > 
> > > The volume control applet will show a mixer for input devices if an
> > > application is recording on it. You'd just need to make the mixer think
> > > that something is recording on that device. I'm not sure how to do that,
> > > but Lennart might.
> > 
> > No, you are misunderstanding. I don't want to adjust the input volume. I
> > want it left alone. I want the master left alone. Master stays at 0dB,
> > Line stays at 0dB. I want PA to dink with PCM instead of Master.
> 
> You can pass a parameter (control=) when loading the PA ALSA plugin
> (module-alsa-sink) which specifies the ALSA mixer element to
> choose. It's intended to be used as a hackish work-around for drivers
> that don't name their controls properly.

THANK YOU. That is *ALL* I was asking for at the start of this thread.
This whole thread could have been accomplished with one polite useful
reply. But no, Bastien Nocera had to escalate it in to a dickfest.

$ pulseaudio 
E: module.c: Failed to load  module "module-alsa-sink" (argument:
"control=PCM"): initialization failed.
E: main.c: Module load failed.
E: main.c: Failed to initialize daemon.

So how the shit do I make it work?

> And as mentioned there's a workaround, you can specify the control for
> a sink. But using that will break device autodetecting and hence the
> whole profile logic. BTW, that option was contributed by someone with a
> weird driver who supplied me with a patch. He didn't whine on a huge
> thread on a mailing list, but just prepared a patch. Could be a good
> role model for some other folks, don't you think?

Fuck you.
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From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 19:22:55 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:22:55 -0400
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker 
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2718.1240514575@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> writes:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:29 AM, King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> How had you not noticed how slow it is? For me, on average it takes
>> approximately 2.5sec to load a page. Red Hat Bugzilla takes approximately
>> 15-20sec to load a page.

> I cannot replicate this on one machine so far, I'll be trying another.

I think this squares with my theory up-thread that it's mostly a network
issue and not the database per se.  It would be interesting to compare
the ping times the two of you see to bugzilla.redhat.com.  For me the
ping time is around 120 msec and loading a single simple bug entry
takes about 3 seconds (on a good day, anyway ... it used to be a lot
worse ...)

>From here in Pittsburgh I can ping sites in San Jose in 70-some msec,
so there is certainly plenty of room for improvement in
bugzilla.redhat.com's connectivity.  It shouldn't take 120 to get
to Phoenix.

			regards, tom lane



From bochecha at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 23 19:29:57 2009
From: bochecha at fedoraproject.org (Mathieu Bridon (bochecha))
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:29:57 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240514334.720.134.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514334.720.134.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <2d319b780904231229x40a174a0y68cabccbb3b7dffd@mail.gmail.com>

> It's called "input monitoring" and it's not unusual. Why is someone with
> no apparent musical or audio recording background in charge of core
> Fedora audio infrastructure?

Because neither you nor someone with ? apparent musical or audio
recording background ? stepped up to do the work.

Me ? I have neither this background nor the development skills. At the
very least, Lennart has the development skills.

You seem to have such a ? musical or audio recording background ?, so
you and Lennart might be complimentary and thus a great team (no pun
intended, I honestly think that).

If only you were actually helping him instead of talking so much (and so badly).

Best regards,


----------

Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 19:34:47 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:34:47 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904231212n17a540a9va552019d88f8ea02@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904231212n17a540a9va552019d88f8ea02@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090423193447.GA23306@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 15:12, Orcan Ogetbil (oget.fedora at gmail.com) wrote:

> I would never have imagined hiding soundcard functionality could be
> thought as an enhancement. My Audigy4 has even more controls than the
> image that was posted. And I was glad to be able to fiddle with all of
> them. Sure there are some controls that I don't need. But I can opt to
> not display them in kmix.

I'd bet money that only for about 10% of your controls you actually
know what they do.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 19:36:17 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:36:17 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Callum Lerwick  wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 01:31 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>
>> And as mentioned there's a workaround, you can specify the control for
>> a sink. But using that will break device autodetecting and hence the
>> whole profile logic. BTW, that option was contributed by someone with a
>> weird driver who supplied me with a patch. He didn't whine on a huge
>> thread on a mailing list, but just prepared a patch. Could be a good
>> role model for some other folks, don't you think?
>
> Fuck you.
>

Actually, I have a very good patch for pulseaudio. It's a one liner
and goes right after the %setup line in the specfile:
rm -fr *

My wife have had this problem with her computer freezing when browsing
the web.I coudn't trace the error. It required a hard reboot every
time. I thought I tried everything, changed the CPU, the video card,
memory... And nothing solved the issue and I thought it was a
motherboard error, until 3 days ago...

I finally saw a system.log error regarding pulseaudio and I
immediately removed all the pulseaudio crap from her computer.

Now it doesn't freeze anymore. She's happy, I'm happy.

Seriously, given hundreds of threads in fedoraforum, people
complaining about pulseaudio, we do need to discuss how to remove
pulseaudio from Fedora (not whether we should remove it).

Cheers,
Orcan, the pulse against



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 19:42:26 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:42:26 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <2d319b780904231229x40a174a0y68cabccbb3b7dffd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514334.720.134.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904231229x40a174a0y68cabccbb3b7dffd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240515746.720.144.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 21:29 +0200, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote:
> > It's called "input monitoring" and it's not unusual. Why is someone with
> > no apparent musical or audio recording background in charge of core
> > Fedora audio infrastructure?
> 
> Because neither you nor someone with ? apparent musical or audio
> recording background ? stepped up to do the work.
> 
> Me ? I have neither this background nor the development skills. At the
> very least, Lennart has the development skills.
> 
> You seem to have such a ? musical or audio recording background ?, so
> you and Lennart might be complimentary and thus a great team (no pun
> intended, I honestly think that).

Yes. Lennart is a pig headed dick who won't listen to suggestions. He's
a textbook case of someone with no listening skills. And Bastien Nocera
isn't doing so great either.

And I'm a huge dick with quite a bit of steam to blow off due to
Fedora's general descent into brokenness. Watch the sparks fly!

> If only you were actually helping him instead of talking so much (and so badly).

Lennart, learn to listen.
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From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 19:43:58 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:43:58 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423193447.GA23306@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net> 
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904231212n17a540a9va552019d88f8ea02@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090423193447.GA23306@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <e76492710904231243g3b7a54c3h4912ece8e77e7988@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Thu, 23.04.09 15:12, Orcan Ogetbil  wrote:
>
>> I would never have imagined hiding soundcard functionality could be
>> thought as an enhancement. My Audigy4 has even more controls than the
>> image that was posted. And I was glad to be able to fiddle with all of
>> them. Sure there are some controls that I don't need. But I can opt to
>> not display them in kmix.
>
> I'd bet money that only for about 10% of your controls you actually
> know what they do.
>

The last time I checked all my controls (including the ones I don't
display), there was only 1 control that I didn't know. And it was
labeled "Unknown1" by ALSA. Feel free to ask questions about any of
them. No need for you to make such a bet with someone from
AudioCreation SIG.

Orcan



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 19:54:34 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:54:34 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <gsnvnk$md9$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6dc6523c0904210720l61ae3503va07132e0ca0e2a96@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e24a8e80904211145of217e7eg40fd341c83a9920f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240341944.30902.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240344905.30902.106.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsnmm8$leh$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240425157.18570.141.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsnvnk$md9$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240516474.720.147.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 22:46 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > That doesn't make them wrong about OpenID's UI sucking.
> 
> A proprietary Google "standard" "based on OpenID" isn't a solution to that
> though.

Yes it is a solution. A monopolistic Google only solution, but it's a
solution.

That's why I'm saying we better come up with an un-biased free solution,
and do it fast. Before Google gains ground.
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From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 19:56:34 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:56:34 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240514334.720.134.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514334.720.134.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090423195633.GB23306@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 14:18, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> > > The proposals I've seen to work around PulseAudio's problems have been
> > > ridiculous -- running audio over the network using PulseAudio,
> > > introducing a bunch of latency which wouldn't otherwise be there, was a
> > > stupid suggestion even if the other box wasn't running Windows. The
> > > hardware has a line-in socket for a reason -- are we just going to
> > > advise Fedora users to tape over it and pretend it isn't there?
> > 
> > The point of line-in is that you can record from it.
> > 
> > Doing line-in/mic feedback to line-out is something I deliberetaly don't
> > plan to support in PA.
> 
> It's called "input monitoring" and it's not unusual. Why is someone with
> no apparent musical or audio recording background in charge of core
> Fedora audio infrastructure?

You are forgetting one thing: PA is a desktop sound server, not a pro
audio sound server or anything for music production.

And that's why input monitoring doesn't make much sense for PA and I
don't plan to support it. If you do pro audio, then don't use PA. Use
JACK and use the raw ALSA. 

> > What complicates the matter is that we cannot properly deduce if some
> > weird system has bass speakers connected to "Master mono" or not. It
> > could be something completely different. tbh I have not the slightest
> > clue how this should be exposed.
> 
> You expose it in the UI as a volume and a "tone" slider. Or "bass" and
> "treble" sliders. Christ, have you ever looked at real physical stereo?
> The 'exposure' is the easy part. Yes, the low level details are probably
> going to be a bitch. But handling those kinds of details are your
> *JOB*.

Ah, I always wondered what my job was. Nice that I get it explained
from you now.

> > 5) People want PA to use a different mixer control than 'Master'. I
> > don't think this is a good thing to do. There is a workaround for this
> > as mentioned, but this is one of the most basic things a driver should
> > get right. Hence, fix it in the driver. I am not planning to support
> > this beyond allowing you to edit some config files to set this up.
> 
> I don't care what you think. This isn't about what you think. This is
> about what the end user wants. Namely ME. Clearly, from this thread and
> plenty of others in the past, you don't give two shits about what your
> end users want.

Hear, hear!

So everyone listen up! The one magical 'end user' is now revealed as
being Mr. Callum Lerwick himself! Listen to his demands and obey!

Don't you think you are a bit presumptuous firstly in believing that
you are the one 'end user' that counts and can stand for them all?
What do you think of courself? And secondly in requesting that RH's
developers have to follow your wishes orders when developing software
you don't even pay for?

Come on, give me break. This is more than enough.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From lsof at nodata.co.uk  Thu Apr 23 20:04:50 2009
From: lsof at nodata.co.uk (nodata)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:04:50 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240517090.12362.1.camel@prague>

> a centralized bug tracking system 

Why? If bugzilla could move bugs upstream most of the problems would be
gone.



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 20:10:26 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:10:26 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240515746.720.144.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514334.720.134.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904231229x40a174a0y68cabccbb3b7dffd@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240515746.720.144.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090423201026.GC23306@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 14:42, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 21:29 +0200, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote:
> > > It's called "input monitoring" and it's not unusual. Why is someone with
> > > no apparent musical or audio recording background in charge of core
> > > Fedora audio infrastructure?
> > 
> > Because neither you nor someone with ? apparent musical or audio
> > recording background ? stepped up to do the work.
> > 
> > Me ? I have neither this background nor the development skills. At the
> > very least, Lennart has the development skills.
> > 
> > You seem to have such a ? musical or audio recording background ?, so
> > you and Lennart might be complimentary and thus a great team (no pun
> > intended, I honestly think that).
> 
> Yes. Lennart is a pig headed dick who won't listen to suggestions. He's
> a textbook case of someone with no listening skills. And Bastien Nocera
> isn't doing so great either.
> 
> And I'm a huge dick with quite a bit of steam to blow off due to
> Fedora's general descent into brokenness. Watch the sparks fly!
> 
> > If only you were actually helping him instead of talking so much (and so badly).
> 
> Lennart, learn to listen.

I am pretty good at listening. The best thing to make sure I am all
ears is of course calling me a "pig headed dick" and "stupid" and of
course using the magic words "fuck you" on me. Adding a couple of
demands on top and assuming that I was your private code monkey rounds
up nicely this convincing approach to get me to fulfill to your
wishes!

I responded earnestly to all points raised in this thread. And all I
got from you were insults and demands. 

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 20:12:00 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:12:00 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240517520.16854.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 14:19 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 01:31 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > On Wed, 22.04.09 14:51, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:
> > 
> > > > > > >  Can I at least get a secret gconf key to do what
> > > > > > > I want? :P
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The volume control uses PulseAudio, it doesn't use ALSA directly
> > > > > > anymore, so no, there's no secret GConf key for that.
> > > > > 
> > > > > So a PulseAudio config option then. Do I have to write the patch myself?
> > > > 
> > > > Probably not a PA config option either.
> > > > 
> > > > The volume control applet will show a mixer for input devices if an
> > > > application is recording on it. You'd just need to make the mixer think
> > > > that something is recording on that device. I'm not sure how to do that,
> > > > but Lennart might.
> > > 
> > > No, you are misunderstanding. I don't want to adjust the input volume. I
> > > want it left alone. I want the master left alone. Master stays at 0dB,
> > > Line stays at 0dB. I want PA to dink with PCM instead of Master.
> > 
> > You can pass a parameter (control=) when loading the PA ALSA plugin
> > (module-alsa-sink) which specifies the ALSA mixer element to
> > choose. It's intended to be used as a hackish work-around for drivers
> > that don't name their controls properly.
> 
> THANK YOU. That is *ALL* I was asking for at the start of this thread.
> This whole thread could have been accomplished with one polite useful
> reply. But no, Bastien Nocera had to escalate it in to a dickfest.
> 
> $ pulseaudio 
> E: module.c: Failed to load  module "module-alsa-sink" (argument:
> "control=PCM"): initialization failed.
> E: main.c: Module load failed.
> E: main.c: Failed to initialize daemon.
> 
> So how the shit do I make it work?
> 
> > And as mentioned there's a workaround, you can specify the control for
> > a sink. But using that will break device autodetecting and hence the
> > whole profile logic. BTW, that option was contributed by someone with a
> > weird driver who supplied me with a patch. He didn't whine on a huge
> > thread on a mailing list, but just prepared a patch. Could be a good
> > role model for some other folks, don't you think?
> 
> Fuck you.
> -- 
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list

I really don't think we need this kind of language and attitude on this
list.  Please take a day or two off to cool down.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 20:11:32 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:11:32 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904221334x74c8b554hde8d2d97a711bb65@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6dc6523c0904201904r74a0102ei2ddec5f223af27e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240289044.14092.247.camel@localhost.localdomain>
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	<2d319b780904211229q5fb08bc2l23c6b2f918b7a8e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240344905.30902.106.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsnmm8$leh$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240425157.18570.141.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904221334x74c8b554hde8d2d97a711bb65@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240517492.720.164.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 15:34 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 20:12 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >> Callum Lerwick wrote:
> >> > Google has it right guys, the standard sucks:
> >> >
> >> > http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/google-doesnt-use-openid/
> >>
> >> No, Google is just showing that they have enough monopoly power to dictate
> >> whatever proprietary "standard" they feel like. They're really the next M$.
> >> They cannot be trusted. They're only "friendly" towards Free Software
> >> insofar as it gives them a lot of software to parasite for proprietary web
> >> apps at no cost. Just ask yourself why the Affero GPL is banned on Google
> >
> > That doesn't make them wrong about OpenID's UI sucking.
> 
> 
> Does open ID dictate a user interface?

Yes. Current UI is users have to copy and paste long obscure meaningless
URLs to every site they want to log in to.

And as I read up on OpenID, I learn how fundamentally flawed it is.
Users don't care about URLs. They don't understand them. What they
understand is their *email address*.

This could be hacked around maintaining the existing OpenID structure by
coming up with some standard way to map emails addresses to OpenID URLs.
So if I enter whosit at whatsit.com, somehow whatsit.com is queried to
discover the URL for user "whosit". This could happen with DNS or HTTP
or something...
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 20:17:01 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:17:01 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 15:36 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

> My wife have had this problem with her computer freezing when browsing
> the web.

> I finally saw a system.log error regarding pulseaudio and I
> immediately removed all the pulseaudio crap from her computer.

Why didn't you file a bug? If you don't report problems when you
experience them, how do you ever expect it to get better?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 20:23:51 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:23:51 -0500
Subject: No more Bugzilla for me
In-Reply-To: <604aa7910904221309p2e70f31du74cdc13eedc483b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EE3B00.8030607@ij.net>
	<e76492710904211437s72b7eeeeiab25756f7d59c240@mail.gmail.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904211445j365ba7a7v1e12a361ff46f3f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f8f6300f0904211520k62430e62uc5a8eda4da4f819c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EE4879.2060407@hidayahonline.org>
	<1240353160.14173.695.camel@adam.local.net>
	<604aa7910904221309p2e70f31du74cdc13eedc483b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240518232.720.173.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 12:09 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> > Yeah, me too, I couldn't live without Revelation now.
> 
> You may want to  look at other options.  Upstream for revelation went
> completely dormant for several months, I almost orphaned it in Fedora
> but I was able to track down the lead developer who assured me I
> didn't need to fork the project to keep it moving forward.
> Distros have been collecting downstream patches for smallish bugs with
> upstream going MIA.
> 
> I'm sort of concerned long term about its continued use of the older
> gnome-vfs apis instead of the new gvfs stuff.  And that's not
> something I want to carry as a downstream distro specific patch.  Once
> F11 is released, I'm going to take another look at upstream's
> integrity and go from there.

Like I was saying, something that uses the gnome-keyring infrastructure
would be nice. So that the DB can be shared with firefox (if it
supported gnome-keyring) and whatever else.

I guess basically it would be a gnome-keyring keyring editor with a
friendlier UI than the existing gnome-keyring-manager, that seems to
have disappeared from F11...

However it's nice that I can mirror my revelation DB onto a USB key, so
I can get at it in a pinch, can the gnome-keyring infrastructure manage
that? I have an encrypted 128mb USB stick that's dedicated to backing up
GPG keys and whatnot.
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From andreas at bawue.net  Thu Apr 23 20:25:12 2009
From: andreas at bawue.net (Andreas Thienemann)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:25:12 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Lennart Poettering wrote:

> We want to control the 'outermost' volume slider. Because that's the
> one that most likely controls the actual analog amplifier if there is
> any. Controlling 'PCM' is kind of pointless on most modern cards since
> it is implemented digitally.

Surely a nice thing in theory.

But in reality, it's not always that clear.

I recently had a dual boot system with rawhide and windows.

Windows sound was fine, right volume et all. Volume knob at the speakers 
was at 50% and the software mixer at 75%.

Now booting to Linux, sound is barely audible. Turning up the volume to 
100% in the mixer and turning the speakers to full was barely enough to 
understand the music.

Using an alsa mixer to turn up the PCM volume to 100% somewhat fixed that.

But turning to an alsamixer to work around a problem with the current 
pamixer can't be a long term solution.

What is the long term way? And no, I don't care for F11. Releases are 
overrated anyway.

regards,
 andreas



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 20:25:33 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:25:33 -0700
Subject: X on tty7
In-Reply-To: <1240510712.16014.6.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240479187.16014.2.camel@choeger6>
	<1240508699.14173.782.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240510712.16014.6.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <1240518333.14173.786.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 20:18 +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
> Forgot to mention: I am using KMS on intel gfx.

Oh, OK. X should be on tty1 then. Unless you boot to runlevel 3 and run
startx, then it winds up on tty7. It also winds up on tty7 if you stop X
(or it crashes) and then start it again. I don't know if that should be
considered a bug or what...
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 20:36:12 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:36:12 -0500
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 10:35 -0700, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 10:22 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> > > I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
> > > pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
> > > I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.
> > 
> > PulseAudio is the default sound solution in Fedora, so all packages using
> > sound SHOULD support it.
> > 
> > IMHO, we should:
> > * find some solution for JACK apps to work out of the box, without
> > reconfiguring PulseAudio to work on top of JACK. Maybe this involves
> > running JACK on top of PulseAudio (something which currently doesn't work
> > because JACK does not support non-mmap ALSA devices nor the native
> > PulseAudio protocol)
> 
> I think it is clear from the thread (and I arrived to it late - I was in
> LAC2009), but just in case:
> 
> NO.
> 
> That solution (Jack on top of PA) does not work not because of mmap
> access requirements of Jack. It does not work because Jack and PA are
> _conceptually_ different and cater to different segments of the audio
> users of Fedora and other distros. 
> 
> Jack is designed for very very low latency. Jack needs access to the
> hardware devices. It cannot and should not run on "top of something
> else". The requirement is not capricious. It is designed that way, and
> works very well. Please don't break it. 

+1

The thing to do route Pulseaudio through Jack. Pulseaudio already has a
Jack plugin.

Though as pointed out, *real* pro audio people have an expensive pro
audio card dedicated to Jack, while Pulseaudio can dink around with the
motherboard audio and keep its damn dirty mitts off the pro card.
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From dimi at lattica.com  Thu Apr 23 20:39:02 2009
From: dimi at lattica.com (Dimi Paun)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:39:02 -0400
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
Message-ID: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>

I don't particularly enjoy putting gasoline on the fire,
but I think the sound problems in Fedora needs addressing.

Ever since FC3 I did not have reliable sound on Linux.
O an bog-standard  Intel 82801H (ICH8 Family). That's
maybe more like 5-6 years. I would get it to work, and
every other update it would break it.

Now, since I could not upgrade from F8 to F9 or F10 (due
to dmraid breakage in anaconda), I took the plunge and
updated my development box to F11. 

SOUND STILL DOESN'T WORK!

Once again, every update breaks something. So, please
just let this sink in:

   In AD2009, F11 sound doesn't work reliably on standard
   hardware in Linux.

Yeah, I can redirect stream, do all sort of nifty things,
except it's a mystery every time I use Skype, Youtube,
VirtualBox or Rhythmbox is I'll get sound.

Let's stop blaming "broken software" -- PA is *crashing*
when I start VirtualBox, Skype, etc. Not the app! 

If you tell me to:
  * run pulseaudio -D from a terminal
  * restart X
  * reboot
you are missing the point. If PA crashes, it should restart
automagically and reconnet. Sound should be reliable.
Also, I don't want to hear about fixing all the bugs in PA.
It didn't happen in many years, it's not gonna happen soon.

Lennart, for the sake of all that's good, please make the
darn thing reliable. Please!

P.S. Just updated yesterday, rebooted, sound broken. Again!
Stuttering and distorsion to the point you can't hear anything;
PA using a lot of CPU, outputing bits and pieces of sound. 
Spent 15min starting/restarting/configuring Skype. How much
patience can one have?!?

-- 
Dimi Paun <dimi at lattica.com>
Lattica, Inc.



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 20:39:46 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:39:46 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net> 
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net> 
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de> 
	<1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <e76492710904231339x78edd74bg78fff7edeb877405@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 15:36 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>
>> My wife have had this problem with her computer freezing when browsing
>> the web.
>
>> I finally saw a system.log error regarding pulseaudio and I
>> immediately removed all the pulseaudio crap from her computer.
>
> Why didn't you file a bug? If you don't report problems when you
> experience them, how do you ever expect it to get better?

I said this before (but maybe not under this thread, so sorry):
Because pulseaudio is not worth it.

Pulseaudio has been a failure in all 3 of my computers. And I don't
know (in person) anyone who has a working pulseaudio setup. All
positive things I heard about pulseaudio were from a handful of people
I discussed here and on irc. Majority of people that I communicated
does not want pulseaudio.

And yes, I don't know how I allowed it to get into my wife's computer.
I blame myself for that.

Pulseaudio proposes nice features. But proposing is one thing,
implementing is another. It is pre-alpha quality for now, and
shouldn't be allowed for public consumption. Maybe in 2-3 years (with
this pace), we shall make it optional for curious testers.

Orcan



From rdieter at math.unl.edu  Thu Apr 23 20:44:30 2009
From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:44:30 -0500
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
Message-ID: <gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>

Dimi Paun wrote:

> you are missing the point. If PA crashes, it should restart
> automagically and reconnet.

Um, it does precisely that here for me.  Pleasantly surprised I was, but
there ya go.  

-- Rex



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 20:46:54 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:46:54 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
Message-ID: <1240519614.14173.787.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 22:25 +0200, Andreas Thienemann wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> 
> > We want to control the 'outermost' volume slider. Because that's the
> > one that most likely controls the actual analog amplifier if there is
> > any. Controlling 'PCM' is kind of pointless on most modern cards since
> > it is implemented digitally.
> 
> Surely a nice thing in theory.
> 
> But in reality, it's not always that clear.
> 
> I recently had a dual boot system with rawhide and windows.
> 
> Windows sound was fine, right volume et all. Volume knob at the speakers 
> was at 50% and the software mixer at 75%.
> 
> Now booting to Linux, sound is barely audible. Turning up the volume to 
> 100% in the mixer and turning the speakers to full was barely enough to 
> understand the music.
> 
> Using an alsa mixer to turn up the PCM volume to 100% somewhat fixed that.
> 
> But turning to an alsamixer to work around a problem with the current 
> pamixer can't be a long term solution.
> 
> What is the long term way? And no, I don't care for F11. Releases are 
> overrated anyway.

The long term way is that your situation is a bug, probably a bug in
ALSA, and should be reported as such.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 20:48:36 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:48:36 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423201026.GC23306@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514334.720.134.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904231229x40a174a0y68cabccbb3b7dffd@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240515746.720.144.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090423201026.GC23306@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240519716.720.184.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 22:10 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> I am pretty good at listening. The best thing to make sure I am all
> ears is of course calling me a "pig headed dick" and "stupid" and of
> course using the magic words "fuck you" on me. Adding a couple of
> demands on top and assuming that I was your private code monkey rounds
> up nicely this convincing approach to get me to fulfill to your
> wishes!

Bastien Nocera started it, and you continued it. I was perfectly polite
in my initial question. And Bastien quite politely and
passive-aggressively told me to fuck off. It went downhill from there.

> I responded earnestly to all points raised in this thread. And all I
> got from you were insults and demands. 

Yes, you and Bastien Nocera earnestly responded with defensiveness,
handwaving, distractions and blow-offs.

That's not how you listen and that's not how you constructively
communicate with people.
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From pemboa at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 20:48:24 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:48:24 -0500
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <2718.1240514575@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2718.1240514575@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904231348j68c08d20xf55f6df0cdcba1e8@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
> Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> writes:
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:29 AM, King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> How had you not noticed how slow it is? For me, on average it takes
>>> approximately 2.5sec to load a page. Red Hat Bugzilla takes approximately
>>> 15-20sec to load a page.
>
>> I cannot replicate this on one machine so far, I'll be trying another.
>
> I think this squares with my theory up-thread that it's mostly a network
> issue and not the database per se. ?It would be interesting to compare
> the ping times the two of you see to bugzilla.redhat.com. ?For me the
> ping time is around 120 msec and loading a single simple bug entry
> takes about 3 seconds (on a good day, anyway ... it used to be a lot
> worse ...)


It could also just be a rendering speed of the browser. Really. As I
said, a good thick client would solve most of the problems indicated
in this thread.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 20:50:57 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:50:57 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
Message-ID: <20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 22:25, Andreas Thienemann (andreas at bawue.net) wrote:

Heya,

> Windows sound was fine, right volume et all. Volume knob at the speakers 
> was at 50% and the software mixer at 75%.
> 
> Now booting to Linux, sound is barely audible. Turning up the volume to 
> 100% in the mixer and turning the speakers to full was barely enough to 
> understand the music.
> 
> Using an alsa mixer to turn up the PCM volume to 100% somewhat fixed that.
> 
> But turning to an alsamixer to work around a problem with the current 
> pamixer can't be a long term solution.
> 
> What is the long term way? And no, I don't care for F11. Releases are 
> overrated anyway.

Firstly the alsa mixer init database should have set up your system
correctly. The database is incomplete unfortunately since most people
don't send in a patch for the db after they fixed those settings
manually. After running alsamixer -c0 alsa will remember and hence
they never get annoyed by that anymore so they don't remember to post
this anymore.

However my plans for F12 should hopefully help to make this issue go
away: on many machines we have quite a few volume controls in
series. e.g. on Thinkpads there is the hw volume that is controlled by
those magic keys, and then there is master, and then there is PCM. My
plan is to collapse them all into a single slider which is possible if
we have dB information about the sliders. The resulting slider would
be the multiplication of the seperate sliders. This would both
increase the range and the granularity of the overall volume slider
and also allows us to fix the mixer initialization issue a bit since
we would control both PCM and Master. 

This should fix a lot of problems for a lot of people. However it will
of course also annoy Mr. Lerwick. But I fear I have to live with that
I guess.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 20:51:11 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:51:11 -0700
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
Message-ID: <1240519871.14173.789.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 16:39 -0400, Dimi Paun wrote:
> I don't particularly enjoy putting gasoline on the fire,
> but I think the sound problems in Fedora needs addressing.

<snip useless rant>

nothing in your post even particularly suggests that the bug is in
Pulse.

Perhaps you could file a bug report, with some useful information in it
(like the output of lspci -nn and cat /proc/asound/card?/codec#? ), a
precise description of the actual symptoms, and none of the invective.

That would be a hell of a lot more useful. And likely to result in your
problem being solved.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 20:54:59 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:54:59 -0500
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904231348j68c08d20xf55f6df0cdcba1e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2718.1240514575@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<16de708d0904231348j68c08d20xf55f6df0cdcba1e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904231354i19c125edq448ed10c3b78e9af@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
> > Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> writes:
> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:29 AM, King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> How had you not noticed how slow it is? For me, on average it takes
> >>> approximately 2.5sec to load a page. Red Hat Bugzilla takes
> approximately
> >>> 15-20sec to load a page.
> >
> >> I cannot replicate this on one machine so far, I'll be trying another.
> >
> > I think this squares with my theory up-thread that it's mostly a network
> > issue and not the database per se.  It would be interesting to compare
> > the ping times the two of you see to bugzilla.redhat.com.  For me the
> > ping time is around 120 msec and loading a single simple bug entry
> > takes about 3 seconds (on a good day, anyway ... it used to be a lot
> > worse ...)
>
>
> It could also just be a rendering speed of the browser. Really. As I
> said, a good thick client would solve most of the problems indicated
> in this thread.
>
>
> --
> Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
> ( www.pembo13.com )
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>


Rendering speed of the browser? As if. I look at Bugzilla regularly in
various projects: Mozilla, ReactOS, Fedora, etc. and the Bugzilla is always
a bit slower than the rest of the site, true, but it is a lot more
pronounced on Red Hat's Bugzilla.
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From dpierce at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 20:56:21 2009
From: dpierce at redhat.com (Darryl L. Pierce)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:56:21 -0400
Subject: Problem with Ruby GEM w/ native code
Message-ID: <20090423205621.GF4092@mcpierce-laptop.rdu.redhat.com>

I'm hoping to get a little help with this. If this is the wrong list to
discuss packaging issues, please point me to the appropriate list.

I'm trying to package a Ruby GEM (RedCloth) for Fedora. I used gem2rpm
to generate the initial spec file. When I build it, things seem to go
fine until the very end. At that point I see this:

error: Bad exit status from
/home/mcpierce/Packaging/rpms/tmp/rpm-tmp.PEH4Wm (%install)


RPM build errors:
    Bad exit status from
/home/mcpierce/Packaging/rpms/tmp/rpm-tmp.PEH4Wm (%install)

I'm building with the commandline:

rpmbuild -ba --rebuild rubygem-RedCloth.spec

And the spec file is listed below:

---8<[snip]---
# Generated from RedCloth-4.1.9.gem by gem2rpm -*- rpm-spec -*-
%define ruby_sitelib %(ruby -rrbconfig -e "puts Config::CONFIG['sitelibdir']")
%define gemdir %(ruby -rubygems -e 'puts Gem::dir' 2>/dev/null)
%define gemname RedCloth
%define geminstdir %{gemdir}/gems/%{gemname}-%{version}

Summary: RedCloth-4.1.9 - Textile parser for Ruby. http://redcloth.org/
Name: rubygem-%{gemname}
Version: 4.1.9
Release: 1%{?dist}
Group: Development/Languages
License: GPLv2+ or Ruby
URL: http://redcloth.org
Source0: http://gems.rubyforge.org/gems/%{gemname}-%{version}.gem
BuildRoot: %{_tmppath}/%{name}-%{version}-%{release}-root-%(%{__id_u} -n)
Requires: rubygems
BuildRequires: rubygems
Provides: rubygem(%{gemname}) = %{version}

%description
RedCloth-4.1.9 - Textile parser for Ruby. http://redcloth.org/


%prep

%build

%install
rm -rf %{buildroot}
mkdir -p %{buildroot}%{gemdir}
gem install --local --install-dir %{buildroot}%{gemdir} \
            --force --rdoc %{SOURCE0}
mkdir -p %{buildroot}/%{_bindir}
mv %{buildroot}%{gemdir}/bin/* %{buildroot}/%{_bindir}
rmdir %{buildroot}%{gemdir}/bin
find %{buildroot}%{geminstdir}/bin -type f | xargs chmod a+x

%clean
rm -rf %{buildroot}

%files
%defattr(-, root, root, -)
%{_bindir}/redcloth
%{gemdir}/gems/%{gemname}-%{version}/
%doc %{gemdir}/doc/%{gemname}-%{version}
%doc %{geminstdir}/CHANGELOG
%doc %{geminstdir}/lib/case_sensitive_require/RedCloth.rb
%doc %{geminstdir}/lib/redcloth/erb_extension.rb
%doc %{geminstdir}/lib/redcloth/formatters/base.rb
%doc %{geminstdir}/lib/redcloth/formatters/html.rb
%doc %{geminstdir}/lib/redcloth/formatters/latex.rb
%doc %{geminstdir}/lib/redcloth/textile_doc.rb
%doc %{geminstdir}/lib/redcloth/version.rb
%doc %{geminstdir}/lib/redcloth.rb
%doc %{geminstdir}/README
%{gemdir}/cache/%{gemname}-%{version}.gem
%{gemdir}/specifications/%{gemname}-%{version}.gemspec


%changelog
* Thu Apr 23 2009 Darryl Pierce <mcpierce at mcpierce-laptop> - 4.1.9-1
- Initial package
---8<[snip]---
-- 
Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc.
Virtual Machine Management - http://www.ovirt.org/
Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste n? B?arla cliste.
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From dimi at lattica.com  Thu Apr 23 20:57:04 2009
From: dimi at lattica.com (Dimi Paun)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:57:04 -0400
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 15:44 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> > you are missing the point. If PA crashes, it should restart
> > automagically and reconnet.
> 
> Um, it does precisely that here for me.  Pleasantly surprised I was,
> but there ya go.  

If PA has been modified to do that, great! However, every other day
something else goes wrong, and I have a hard time keeping up with
what's not working.

But I just spent 15+ minutes trying to get Skype to work, and let
me tell you it's been brutal. Is there any chance of getting Skype
to work reliably? Or flash?

For example, for flash sounds works for 1-2 days, then sometimes it
just doesn't work. Not sure why, and a few days later when I reboot
it (may) come back...

(Just so it's clear: I'm sticking with PA because I want it to succeed.
Please consider this constructive feedback.)

-- 
Dimi Paun <dimi at lattica.com>
Lattica, Inc.



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 20:57:06 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:57:06 -0700
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904231348j68c08d20xf55f6df0cdcba1e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2718.1240514575@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<16de708d0904231348j68c08d20xf55f6df0cdcba1e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240520226.14173.791.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 15:48 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:

> It could also just be a rendering speed of the browser. Really. As I
> said, a good thick client would solve most of the problems indicated
> in this thread.

Well, b.r.c isn't particularly fast to respond even when you're
accessing it with python-bugzilla. Though I haven't compared it with
another bugzilla directly, yet.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From andreas at bawue.net  Thu Apr 23 20:57:44 2009
From: andreas at bawue.net (Andreas Thienemann)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:57:44 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423195633.GB23306@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514334.720.134.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090423195633.GB23306@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232250350.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Lennart Poettering wrote:

> You are forgetting one thing: PA is a desktop sound server, not a pro
> audio sound server or anything for music production.
> 
> And that's why input monitoring doesn't make much sense for PA and I
> don't plan to support it. If you do pro audio, then don't use PA. Use
> JACK and use the raw ALSA. 

I wouldn't consider "input monitoring" a pro-audio feature. I recently 
spent about 4 years at university, getting a degree. I've seen quite a lot 
of people there having no audio equipment at all except a notebook or a 
computer with some external speakers.

Many of them had a mp3 player or a minidisc player connected to the line
in and played their music through the speakers of their computer.

I'm certain these people were not pro-audio guys or anything but the 
standard Windows XP desktop user. So maybe it would be worthwile 
considering their usecase desktop-audio worthy?

Just saying...

regards,
 andreas



From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Thu Apr 23 20:58:31 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:58:31 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 13:29 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
>> It works just fine. No way in hell is mock going to be acceptable for a
>> quick turn-around edit-compile-test cycle on a massive OpenGL app.
> 
> Supporting multilib creates untold number of disasters and unfixable
> situations.  Its just not worth it when you can maintain a chroot (mock
> or not) of the arch you wish to fiddle with.

...which means -m32 would stop working, which means my $DAYJOB would 
have to change distros on our build machines.

We rely on being able to build 32- and 64-bit binaries as part of the 
same build. How exactly is that supposed to work with mock?

-- 
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
-- 
Use the --force, Luke -- Riccardo Iaconelli



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 21:01:20 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:01:20 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090423210120.GB29486@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 15:36, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> > That solution (Jack on top of PA) does not work not because of mmap
> > access requirements of Jack. It does not work because Jack and PA are
> > _conceptually_ different and cater to different segments of the audio
> > users of Fedora and other distros. 
> > 
> > Jack is designed for very very low latency. Jack needs access to the
> > hardware devices. It cannot and should not run on "top of something
> > else". The requirement is not capricious. It is designed that way, and
> > works very well. Please don't break it. 
> 
> +1
> 
> The thing to do route Pulseaudio through Jack. Pulseaudio already has a
> Jack plugin.

As I already pointed out there is no point in running PA and JACK on
top of each other. Certainly not JACK on top of PA and not the other
way either.

PA and JACK have different purposes. For pro audio PA needs to go out
of the way and that's what it does with the device reservation
logic. 

The Jack plugin for PA is more a toy for exotic uses. It is nothing to
enable by default. Running PA on JACK is simply pointless, there is
simply no reason why you'd want that. You don't want to have event
sounds mixed in your pro audio stream, you don't want ekiga audio in
it, and you don't want flash sounds or rhythmbox or totem streams
it. The whole discussion of something like this is just complete and
utter nonsense.

So, no, "the thing" is NOT "to route PA through Jack". The thing is to
not have them interfere with each other and cooperate. And that's what
has been implemented now.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 21:01:27 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 02:01:27 +0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Friday 24 April 2009 01:17:01 Adam Williamson wrote:
>
> Why didn't you file a bug? If you don't report problems when you
> experience them, how do you ever expect it to get better?
> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
> http://www.happyassassin.net

This is why: 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?component=pulseaudio&product=Fedora
There you'll find a *lot* of bugs related to pulseaudio.
And a few of them (about hogging resources and sound quality problems)
don't look like they will be fixed [soon].
Why? Cause they are being reported since the very begining, again and again.

Suren



From bochecha at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 23 21:01:35 2009
From: bochecha at fedoraproject.org (Mathieu Bridon (bochecha))
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:01:35 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
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	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <2d319b780904231401w6f0da7f0v9e32cc26c60c3e2a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 22:50, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
> On Thu, 23.04.09 22:25, Andreas Thienemann (andreas at bawue.net) wrote:
>
> Heya,
>
>> Windows sound was fine, right volume et all. Volume knob at the speakers
>> was at 50% and the software mixer at 75%.
>>
>> Now booting to Linux, sound is barely audible. Turning up the volume to
>> 100% in the mixer and turning the speakers to full was barely enough to
>> understand the music.
>>
>> Using an alsa mixer to turn up the PCM volume to 100% somewhat fixed that.
>>
>> But turning to an alsamixer to work around a problem with the current
>> pamixer can't be a long term solution.
>>
>> What is the long term way? And no, I don't care for F11. Releases are
>> overrated anyway.
>
> Firstly the alsa mixer init database should have set up your system
> correctly. The database is incomplete unfortunately since most people
> don't send in a patch for the db after they fixed those settings
> manually. After running alsamixer -c0 alsa will remember and hence
> they never get annoyed by that anymore so they don't remember to post
> this anymore.

Are you saying that I should open a bug saying something like ? on
Fedora 11, audio was barely audible. I run alsamixer and set all
channels to the max, now it's a little better ? ?

Is so, I'll happily go and open one right now :)


----------

Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)



From andreas at bawue.net  Thu Apr 23 21:03:19 2009
From: andreas at bawue.net (Andreas Thienemann)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:03:19 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
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Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232258540.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>

Hi,

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Lennart Poettering wrote:

Thank you for the quick reply.


[ Differences in volume level between Windows and Rawhide ]

> Firstly the alsa mixer init database should have set up your system
> correctly. The database is incomplete unfortunately since most people
> don't send in a patch for the db after they fixed those settings
> manually. After running alsamixer -c0 alsa will remember and hence
> they never get annoyed by that anymore so they don't remember to post
> this anymore.

Okay. So fixing the database entry would solve that. Now, what data do I 
need to extract from my system and where do I have to send that?


> However my plans for F12 should hopefully help to make this issue go
> away: on many machines we have quite a few volume controls in
> series. e.g. on Thinkpads there is the hw volume that is controlled by
> those magic keys, and then there is master, and then there is PCM. My
> plan is to collapse them all into a single slider which is possible if
> we have dB information about the sliders. The resulting slider would
> be the multiplication of the seperate sliders. This would both
> increase the range and the granularity of the overall volume slider
> and also allows us to fix the mixer initialization issue a bit since
> we would control both PCM and Master. 

At least to me that sounds somewhat sensible. But I'm no audio guy. :)

But as it's a long term solution, the short term solution for me would 
still be the alsa database.


regards,
 andreas



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 23 21:09:21 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 02:39:21 +0530
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
Message-ID: <49F0D901.2000003@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/24/2009 02:27 AM, Dimi Paun wrote:
> 
> But I just spent 15+ minutes trying to get Skype to work, and let
> me tell you it's been brutal. Is there any chance of getting Skype
> to work reliably? Or flash?

Works fine here.
> 
> (Just so it's clear: I'm sticking with PA because I want it to succeed.
> Please consider this constructive feedback.)

Would that include a bug report?

Rahul



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 21:07:33 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:07:33 +0200
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
Message-ID: <20090423210733.GC29486@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 16:57, Dimi Paun (dimi at lattica.com) wrote:

> 
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 15:44 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> > > you are missing the point. If PA crashes, it should restart
> > > automagically and reconnet.
> > 
> > Um, it does precisely that here for me.  Pleasantly surprised I was,
> > but there ya go.  
> 
> If PA has been modified to do that, great! However, every other day
> something else goes wrong, and I have a hard time keeping up with
> what's not working.
> 
> But I just spent 15+ minutes trying to get Skype to work, and let
> me tell you it's been brutal. Is there any chance of getting Skype
> to work reliably? Or flash?

Flash 10 works fine here. They came around and made it a better ALSA
citizen, and it now works perfectly fine on PA.

And regarding Skype, ever thought of blaming Skype for this situation?
The last time I played with Skype it was basically doing everything
wrong they could do wrong with the ALSA API. It's not a particular
surprise if it doesn' work on PA.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 21:09:44 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:09:44 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <9061.1240427075@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<13735.1240188533@sss.pgh.pa.us> <gsj68t$9hm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<11307.1240344711@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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	<9061.1240427075@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1240520985.720.189.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 15:04 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> writes:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 13:59 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> >> That doesn't solve the problem.  The part of the problem that's actually
> >> not solved today is the /usr/bin/foo-config problem.  Without a fix for
> >> that, making it a bit easier to deal with include-file diffs isn't
> >> worth anything.
> 
> > The same way cross compilation identifies gcc and strip and whatnot.
> > Prefix it with the architecture.
> 
> Which immediately breaks all the upstream configure scripts that are
> trying to use the config program in the first place.

Native compilation will work just fine. The un-prefixed config-foo
remains in place for the native architecture. Just like gcc.

And yes, it will break build scripts. Because the build scripts are
depending on something that is _broken_right_now_. That's the whole
point here.
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From andreas at bawue.net  Thu Apr 23 21:10:09 2009
From: andreas at bawue.net (Andreas Thienemann)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:10:09 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240508325.14173.779.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
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Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232234440.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Adam Williamson wrote:

> To reiterate, I at least am not proposing that gnome-volume-control
> support all these cases. g-v-c should support profile switching and
> input switching, and have a single volume control that actually works
> properly on all hardware. That would be enough.

For a start. I'm sure there are some more cases which should be 
considered, but the most important ones are probably the ones you 
described.


> All I want beyond that is for there to be a GUI mixer that provides full
> channel control available in the default install for all editions of
> Fedora, *alongside* Pulse-level mixers like the new-skool g-v-c. Only
> providing alsamixer would be a serious regression - most people don't
> know that it exists, or know how to use it.

Call it "Advanced Audio Mixer", have it offer the Alsa channels and offer 
to show only a subset, make it play nicely with the new-skool mixer and 
world domination will be ours. Nope, that came out wrong. Let me try 
again: And all our users rejoiced.

There, much better. The easy cases can work with the new-skool mixer and 
if you need something specific, use the Advanced mixer.

Hopefully people needing the Advanced mixer will share their use cases and 
these can then be considered for inclusion into the new-skool mixer. 


> And most people, infamously, don't read the release notes. This isn't
> our fault, but it's something we should take into account.

I think that's worth a seperate discussion...

regards,
 andreas



From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 21:10:32 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:10:32 -0400
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker 
In-Reply-To: <8278b1b0904231354i19c125edq448ed10c3b78e9af@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <4637.1240521032@sss.pgh.pa.us>

King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> writes:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
>>> I think this squares with my theory up-thread that it's mostly a network
>>> issue and not the database per se.  It would be interesting to compare
>>> the ping times the two of you see to bugzilla.redhat.com.

> [ two responses, no data ]

I take it nobody wants to sully their complaining with actual facts
that might help narrow down the problem.

			regards, tom lane



From tgl at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 21:12:16 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:12:16 -0400
Subject: development packages and multilib 
In-Reply-To: <gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org> 
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
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Message-ID: <4710.1240521136@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Matthew Woehlke <mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> We rely on being able to build 32- and 64-bit binaries as part of the 
> same build. How exactly is that supposed to work with mock?

I wonder how you get it to work now ... you must have a very short
list of packages you depend on.

			regards, tom lane



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 21:19:57 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:19:57 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
References: <1240285669.14092.212.camel@localhost.localdomain>
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On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:48 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> said:
> > But _I_ _do_ _not_ _have_ _to_ _do_ _this_ _for_ _Win32_ _or_ _mipsel_.
> > Why is i386 special?
> 
> When you compile for Win32, you are using a cross-compiler environment.
> Everything about it is different; different includes, compilers,
> libraries, etc.

Same thing with multilib. Only difference is i386 and x86_64 are mashed
together in the same tree, with the exception of lib/lib64. (and the
i386/x86_64 gcc is mashed together, but that's an implementation
detail.)

This implementation was fundamentally flawed to begin with. But hey, how
could whoever came up with it have known at the time?

Years later, it's clear what's wrong. Turns out /usr/include is in fact
arch specific. And various people's config-foo dealies are Doing It
Wrong.

... And I've given solutions to both of those. What other problems are
there with multilib?

> Now, Linux/i386 could be set up that way on Linux/x86_64, but that would
> require rebuilding the development stack for cross-compilation
> (different compilers, development packages, etc.).  This is not the same
> as multilib (which allows i386 and x86_64 binaries to co-exist).

That's my whole point here. If we're having problems with multilib, it's
because multilib is not ENOUGH like cross compiling.

> Nobody is interested in putting that much work into that setup,
> especially when you can just use mock (since i386 binaries can run
> natively on x86_64).

Pimpin' ain't easy.

Is fixing it right any less painful than maintaining the current setup?

That's how this thread started. People bitching about what a pain
maintaining multilib is.

> What is wrong with using mock?

It's slow, awkward and completely un-neccessary.
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From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 21:20:28 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:20:28 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <2d319b780904231401w6f0da7f0v9e32cc26c60c3e2a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
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Message-ID: <20090423212027.GD29486@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 23:01, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) (bochecha at fedoraproject.org) wrote:

> > Firstly the alsa mixer init database should have set up your system
> > correctly. The database is incomplete unfortunately since most people
> > don't send in a patch for the db after they fixed those settings
> > manually. After running alsamixer -c0 alsa will remember and hence
> > they never get annoyed by that anymore so they don't remember to post
> > this anymore.
> 
> Are you saying that I should open a bug saying something like ? on
> Fedora 11, audio was barely audible. I run alsamixer and set all
> channels to the max, now it's a little better ? ?
> 
> Is so, I'll happily go and open one right now :)

Yes, it would be good if you would open a bug report about this. No it
wouldn't be good if you'd post it like that.

Identify which control exactly was incorrectly initialized. Identify a
good value for it. And then describe exactly which card you have, and
file a bug against alsa-utils. 

Even better, have a working patch ready for alsa-utils. Most folks
will probably have to add a few lines to /lib/alsa/init/hda and that's
about it. The syntax is similar to udev rules. Just read that file and
you should be able to deduce the format it is written in. Then use
'alsactl init' to test your changes.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 21:22:11 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:22:11 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <4710.1240521136@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
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	<gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>  <4710.1240521136@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1240521731.720.201.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 17:12 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Matthew Woehlke <mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> > We rely on being able to build 32- and 64-bit binaries as part of the 
> > same build. How exactly is that supposed to work with mock?
> 
> I wonder how you get it to work now ... you must have a very short
> list of packages you depend on.

I've compiled the Second Life client this way. It has a hell of a
dependency list, and it works just fine.
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From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 21:24:01 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:24:01 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423212027.GD29486@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
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On Thu, 23.04.09 23:20, Lennart Poettering (mzerqung at 0pointer.de) wrote:

> > Are you saying that I should open a bug saying something like ? on
> > Fedora 11, audio was barely audible. I run alsamixer and set all
> > channels to the max, now it's a little better ? ?
> > 
> > Is so, I'll happily go and open one right now :)
> 
> Yes, it would be good if you would open a bug report about this. No it
> wouldn't be good if you'd post it like that.
> 
> Identify which control exactly was incorrectly initialized. Identify a
> good value for it. And then describe exactly which card you have, and
> file a bug against alsa-utils. 

Let me add that 'alsa-info.sh --no-upload' is a good source of
information for identifying audio devices for these rules.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com  Thu Apr 23 21:28:27 2009
From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:28:27 +0200
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <20090423210733.GC29486@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090423210733.GC29486@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240522107.13325.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Donnerstag, den 23.04.2009, 23:07 +0200 schrieb Lennart Poettering:

> And regarding Skype, ever thought of blaming Skype for this situation?

Yes, but there's not much use in it, because Skype is in trouble and
they wont spend work on their Linux version.

> The last time I played with Skype it was basically doing everything
> wrong they could do wrong with the ALSA API. It's not a particular
> surprise if it doesn' work on PA.

Agreed, but when I tell skype to use OSS, my CPU gets up to 50% and
there is an enormous delay between what I say and the reply from the
other person. The delay gets bigger and bigger and so does CPU, until PA
uses 100% and makes my box unusable.

I think we both agree that whatever uses OSS, PA should not eat all the
CPU, right?

> Lennart

Regards,
Christoph



From pemboa at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 21:29:05 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:29:05 -0500
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <4637.1240521032@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2718.1240514575@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<16de708d0904231348j68c08d20xf55f6df0cdcba1e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904231354i19c125edq448ed10c3b78e9af@mail.gmail.com>
	<4637.1240521032@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904231429o69b8a5bdiae5732651332ebd@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
> King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> writes:
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
>>>> I think this squares with my theory up-thread that it's mostly a network
>>>> issue and not the database per se. ?It would be interesting to compare
>>>> the ping times the two of you see to bugzilla.redhat.com.
>
>> [ two responses, no data ]
>
> I take it nobody wants to sully their complaining with actual facts
> that might help narrow down the problem.
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?regards, tom lane


>From my desktop:

$ ping -c 50 -i 5 -q -s 512 bugzilla.redhat.com
PING bugzilla.redhat.com (209.132.176.231) 512(540) bytes of data.

--- bugzilla.redhat.com ping statistics ---
50 packets transmitted, 50 received, 0% packet loss, time 245167ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 114.606/118.980/135.277/3.966 ms

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From seg at haxxed.com  Thu Apr 23 21:30:39 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:30:39 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232250350.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
References: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090423153131.GA24372@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514334.720.134.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090423195633.GB23306@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232250350.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
Message-ID: <1240522239.720.204.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 22:57 +0200, Andreas Thienemann wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> 
> > You are forgetting one thing: PA is a desktop sound server, not a pro
> > audio sound server or anything for music production.
> > 
> > And that's why input monitoring doesn't make much sense for PA and I
> > don't plan to support it. If you do pro audio, then don't use PA. Use
> > JACK and use the raw ALSA. 
> 
> I wouldn't consider "input monitoring" a pro-audio feature. I recently 
> spent about 4 years at university, getting a degree. I've seen quite a lot 
> of people there having no audio equipment at all except a notebook or a 
> computer with some external speakers.
> 
> Many of them had a mp3 player or a minidisc player connected to the line
> in and played their music through the speakers of their computer.
> 
> I'm certain these people were not pro-audio guys or anything but the 
> standard Windows XP desktop user. So maybe it would be worthwile 
> considering their usecase desktop-audio worthy?
> 
> Just saying...

... See, I'm not the only one.

Lennart, you are not God. You can not foresee every use case.
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 21:32:27 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:32:27 -0700
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240522347.16854.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 15:58 -0500, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> ...which means -m32 would stop working, which means my $DAYJOB would 
> have to change distros on our build machines.
> 
> We rely on being able to build 32- and 64-bit binaries as part of the 
> same build. How exactly is that supposed to work with mock?

Well in our production environment we require clean chroots be created
for every build, so we create a clean i386 chroot to build the i386
binaries, we create a clean x86_64 chroot to build the x86_64 binaries,
we create a clean ppc chroot to create the ppc binaries, I think you see
where I'm going with this.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 21:48:24 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:48:24 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 02:01, Suren Karapetyan (surenkarapetyan at gmail.com) wrote:

> 
> On Friday 24 April 2009 01:17:01 Adam Williamson wrote:
> >
> > Why didn't you file a bug? If you don't report problems when you
> > experience them, how do you ever expect it to get better?
> 
> This is why: 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?component=pulseaudio&product=Fedora
> There you'll find a *lot* of bugs related to pulseaudio.
> And a few of them (about hogging resources and sound quality problems)
> don't look like they will be fixed [soon].
> Why? Cause they are being reported since the very begining, again and again.

A long list of bugs bug reports is certainly a sign that your software
is used a lot, not so much that it is complete broken whcih you seem
to imply.

Also, what's the point of listing closed bugs?

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 21:50:30 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:50:30 +0200
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <1240522107.13325.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090423210733.GC29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240522107.13325.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090423215030.GG29486@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 23:28, Christoph Wickert (christoph.wickert at googlemail.com) wrote:

> 
> Am Donnerstag, den 23.04.2009, 23:07 +0200 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
> 
> > And regarding Skype, ever thought of blaming Skype for this situation?
> 
> Yes, but there's not much use in it, because Skype is in trouble and
> they wont spend work on their Linux version.
> 
> > The last time I played with Skype it was basically doing everything
> > wrong they could do wrong with the ALSA API. It's not a particular
> > surprise if it doesn' work on PA.
> 
> Agreed, but when I tell skype to use OSS, my CPU gets up to 50% and
> there is an enormous delay between what I say and the reply from the
> other person. The delay gets bigger and bigger and so does CPU, until PA
> uses 100% and makes my box unusable.
> 
> I think we both agree that whatever uses OSS, PA should not eat all the
> CPU, right?

I am sorry. I don't follow. What does OSS have to do with this? 

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 21:58:32 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:58:32 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com> 
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 5:48 PM, Lennart Poettering  wrote:
> On Fri, 24.04.09 02:01, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
>
>>
>> On Friday 24 April 2009 01:17:01 Adam Williamson wrote:
>> >
>> > Why didn't you file a bug? If you don't report problems when you
>> > experience them, how do you ever expect it to get better?
>>
>> This is why:
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?component=pulseaudio&product=Fedora
>> There you'll find a *lot* of bugs related to pulseaudio.
>> And a few of them (about hogging resources and sound quality problems)
>> don't look like they will be fixed [soon].
>> Why? Cause they are being reported since the very begining, again and again.
>
> A long list of bugs bug reports is certainly a sign that your software
> is used a lot, not so much that it is complete broken whcih you seem
> to imply.
>

He doesn't need to imply anything. Curseaudio is unbroken only in your
system(s) and possibly in a countably many other people's.

> Also, what's the point of listing closed bugs?
>

They are not all closed. There are many OPEN's as well as WONTFIX' and
WORKSFORME's.

Please do lift this curse from Fedora. It is bad. It is broken to a
great extent. I'm glad I got rid of it before it started damaging my
hardware.

Pretty please!

Orcan



From s-t-rhbugzilla at wwwdotorg.org  Thu Apr 23 22:30:31 2009
From: s-t-rhbugzilla at wwwdotorg.org (Stephen Warren)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:30:31 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240508771.720.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240508771.720.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240525831.10938.TMDA@tmda.severn.wwwdotorg.org>

On Thu, April 23, 2009 11:46 am, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 08:41 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
>> And the response to Stephen's need to control bass and treble speakers
>> individually was stupid too -- you _don't_ want to just tie them
>> together. Depending on what he's playing, he might need to adjust the
>> relative volume of bass vs. treble. That's not an unreasonable desire.
>
> You abstract it and present it in the UI as a volume slider and a "tone"
> slider.
>
> hwvol = vol;
> bassvol = vol * tone;
>
> Which is the kind of stuff PA *should* be doing. But Stephen is a fringe
> nutjob for owning such uncommon hardware, and PA is never going to
> support it.

You have got to be freaking kidding me???

This is a major brand laptop - Dell Inspiron, not some bizarre uncommon
piece of HW.

Also, this used to work perfectly back in F8 or F9, and regressed (like
pretty much everything in Fedora).

And, FYI, I didn't come up with the WAR, but found it here:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=101386#6

So at least a number of other people have the same issue...



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Thu Apr 23 22:36:02 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:36:02 +0200
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
Message-ID: <20090423223602.GA8218@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 16:39, Dimi Paun (dimi at lattica.com) wrote:

> I don't particularly enjoy putting gasoline on the fire,
> but I think the sound problems in Fedora needs addressing.

> Lennart, for the sake of all that's good, please make the
> darn thing reliable. Please!

I only see one bug report of yours, #493788. And on that one you
haven't responded since 2009-04-03 -- the day you posted it. Still
wainting for the informaiton I requested.

Also, let's notice that that bug is in a pretty exotic feature of PA,
so I'd you seem to have found the more advanced uses of PA
already. Your experience cannot be that bad, as it seems...

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From cebbert at redhat.com  Thu Apr 23 22:35:41 2009
From: cebbert at redhat.com (Chuck Ebbert)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:35:41 -0400
Subject: RFE: Add -p to the diff options to provide more context in commit
 mails
Message-ID: <20090423183541.41be4f57@dhcp-100-2-144.bos.redhat.com>

This trivial patch adds more context to the diffs in commit mails:

--- CVSROOT.orig/syncmail
+++ CVSROOT/syncmail
@@ -147,7 +147,7 @@ def calculate_diff(filespec):
         brief = ""
         if optNoDiff:
             brief = "--brief"
-        diffcmd = '/usr/bin/cvs -f diff %s -kk -u -N -r %s -r %s %s' % (
+        diffcmd = '/usr/bin/cvs -f diff %s -kk -u -p -N -r %s -r %s %s' % (
             brief,
             oldrev, newrev, file)
         fp = os.popen(diffcmd)



From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com  Thu Apr 23 22:43:17 2009
From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:43:17 +0200
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <20090423215030.GG29486@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090423210733.GC29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240522107.13325.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090423215030.GG29486@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240526597.13325.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Donnerstag, den 23.04.2009, 23:50 +0200 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
> On Thu, 23.04.09 23:28, Christoph Wickert (christoph.wickert at googlemail.com) wrote:
> > 
> > I think we both agree that whatever uses OSS, PA should not eat all the
> > CPU, right?
> 
> I am sorry. I don't follow. What does OSS have to do with this? 

PA offers an OSS comparability layer. When used, PA eats up all my CPU
and causes an enormous delay.

> Lennart

Regards,
Christoph




From peter.hutterer at who-t.net  Thu Apr 23 22:45:31 2009
From: peter.hutterer at who-t.net (Peter Hutterer)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:45:31 +1000
Subject: MPX - is in our X server.
In-Reply-To: <1240490236.3846.5.camel@laptap.myhome>
References: <1240490236.3846.5.camel@laptap.myhome>
Message-ID: <20090423224530.GC2282@dingo.bne.redhat.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 08:37:16PM +0800, Steven James Drinnan wrote:
> Just question - I am doing some playing around with some programs and
> wanted to activate two mouse pointers. 

X server 1.6 doesn't have mpx yet, sorry. I'm working on getting it ready by
F12.

Cheers,
  Peter



From rayvd at bludgeon.org  Thu Apr 23 23:12:41 2009
From: rayvd at bludgeon.org (Ray Van Dolson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:12:41 -0700
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904231429o69b8a5bdiae5732651332ebd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2718.1240514575@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<16de708d0904231348j68c08d20xf55f6df0cdcba1e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904231354i19c125edq448ed10c3b78e9af@mail.gmail.com>
	<4637.1240521032@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<16de708d0904231429o69b8a5bdiae5732651332ebd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090423231241.GA7720@bludgeon.org>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 04:29:05PM -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
> > King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> writes:
> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
> >>>> I think this squares with my theory up-thread that it's mostly a network
> >>>> issue and not the database per se. ?It would be interesting to compare
> >>>> the ping times the two of you see to bugzilla.redhat.com.
> >
> >> [ two responses, no data ]
> >
> > I take it nobody wants to sully their complaining with actual facts
> > that might help narrow down the problem.
> >
> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?regards, tom lane
> 
> 
> >From my desktop:
> 
> $ ping -c 50 -i 5 -q -s 512 bugzilla.redhat.com
> PING bugzilla.redhat.com (209.132.176.231) 512(540) bytes of data.
> 
> --- bugzilla.redhat.com ping statistics ---
> 50 packets transmitted, 50 received, 0% packet loss, time 245167ms
> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 114.606/118.980/135.277/3.966 ms
> 

You could probably compare how fast the pages render via elinks vs
Firefox.

Don't know how much of the time is spent doing JavaScript or generating
the huge list of components...

I bet there's some sort of website profiling plugin for Firefox out
there that would help......

Ray



From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Thu Apr 23 23:46:09 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:46:09 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <4710.1240521136@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<4710.1240521136@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <gsquk2$ovm$1@ger.gmane.org>

Tom Lane wrote:
> Matthew Woehlke <please at don't> writes:

Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.

>> We rely on being able to build 32- and 64-bit binaries as part of the 
>> same build. How exactly is that supposed to work with mock?
> 
> I wonder how you get it to work now ... you must have a very short
> list of packages you depend on.

To be honest... glibc and ncurses :-). And occasionally a few (and I do 
mean "few", as in, less than a half dozen) others can be useful. (That 
said, I also have yet to encounter problems with multilib...)

(I also have about a dozen other non-devel multilib packages installed 
for various things.)

-- 
Matthew
Use the --force, Luke -- Riccardo Iaconelli



From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Thu Apr 23 23:46:39 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:46:39 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240522347.16854.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240522347.16854.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsqukv$orq$1@ger.gmane.org>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 15:58 -0500, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>> ...which means -m32 would stop working, which means my $DAYJOB would 
>> have to change distros on our build machines.
>>
>> We rely on being able to build 32- and 64-bit binaries as part of the 
>> same build. How exactly is that supposed to work with mock?
> 
> Well in our production environment we require clean chroots be created
> for every build, so we create a clean i386 chroot to build the i386
> binaries, we create a clean x86_64 chroot to build the x86_64 binaries,
> we create a clean ppc chroot to create the ppc binaries, I think you see
> where I'm going with this.

Obviously your requirements are different. (For us, I've no idea how 
hard something like the above would be to achieve on OSF 5.x or Irix 
6.x. Yes, I work with those platforms.)

Our requirements are that one build environment produces one package 
containing both 32- and 64-bit binaries. (Including, in one case, on 
Windoze, and don't even get me started on what a PITA *that* is.) We 
support enough platforms without multiplying the support cost with 
separate packages based on what size you want your pointers to be...

-- 
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
-- 
Use the --force, Luke -- Riccardo Iaconelli



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 01:38:52 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:38:52 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240537132.3955.8.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 02:01 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> On Friday 24 April 2009 01:17:01 Adam Williamson wrote:
> >
> > Why didn't you file a bug? If you don't report problems when you
> > experience them, how do you ever expect it to get better?
> > --
> > Adam Williamson
> > Fedora QA Community Monkey
> > IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
> > http://www.happyassassin.net
> 
> This is why: 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?component=pulseaudio&product=Fedora
> There you'll find a *lot* of bugs related to pulseaudio.
> And a few of them (about hogging resources and sound quality problems)
> don't look like they will be fixed [soon].
> Why? Cause they are being reported since the very begining, again and again.

Interesting experiment. Let's do it my way:

[adamw at adam ~]$ bugzilla query -p Fedora -c pulseaudio --outputformat="%{bug_status} %{resolution}" | sort

if you do that and take a look at the results...you get 372 bugs. 27 are
NEW, and 6 are ASSIGNED - so only 33 open bugs. 4 are CLOSED CANTFIX, 69
are CLOSED NOTABUG, 17 CLOSED INSUFFICIENT_DATA, 17 CLOSED WORKSFORME,
70 are CLOSED DUPLICATE - 177 that were considered and closed for
probably valid reasons. And: 15 are CLOSED CURRENTRELEASE, 5 are CLOSED
ERRATA, 6 are CLOSED NEXTRELEASE and 92 are CLOSED RAWHIDE - that's 118
that were fixed. 25 are CLOSED UPSTREAM.

I don't see anything particularly wrong with those numbers. Obviously a
lot of valid bugs have been filed and properly fixed. The amount that
are currently outstanding is not at all unreasonable as a proportion of
the total, and not an unmanageable number of bugs taken absolutely. I
suspect you'd see very similar proportions if you looked at, say, all
kernel bugs, or all X bugs.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 01:39:50 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:39:50 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <2d319b780904231401w6f0da7f0v9e32cc26c60c3e2a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<2d319b780904231401w6f0da7f0v9e32cc26c60c3e2a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240537190.3955.9.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 23:01 +0200, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote:

> > Firstly the alsa mixer init database should have set up your system
> > correctly. The database is incomplete unfortunately since most people
> > don't send in a patch for the db after they fixed those settings
> > manually. After running alsamixer -c0 alsa will remember and hence
> > they never get annoyed by that anymore so they don't remember to post
> > this anymore.
> 
> Are you saying that I should open a bug saying something like ? on
> Fedora 11, audio was barely audible. I run alsamixer and set all
> channels to the max, now it's a little better ? ?
> 
> Is so, I'll happily go and open one right now :)

Well yes, but if it's only a *little* better - i.e. if, with all
channels maxed in alsamixer and everything maxed in pavucontrol / g-v-m,
the sound's still pretty quiet - it would seem like there's a more
fundamental bug happening somewhere.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 01:43:26 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:43:26 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 17:58 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

> Please do lift this curse from Fedora. It is bad. It is broken to a
> great extent. I'm glad I got rid of it before it started damaging my
> hardware.

Since you're being a bitch today, here's some karma: I rebooted earlier
this afternoon and my network didn't come up. Having caused a nice level
of domestic strife by rebooting the router and knocking my partner
offline, and then caused myself a lot of frustration by fiddling with
the router and my own system and even everything else connected by wifi
for an hour (and losing lots of valuable work time), I noticed rt2860
had been bumped to a new version. By you.

I went back to the old version, rebooted, and lo and behold - up came my
wireless.

SO YOU FUCKING BROKE MY SYSTEM YOU FUCKING BASTARD YOU SHOULD PAY!!!
11111!!!!!! YOU ARE NOT GOD! GIVE ME BACK MY AFTERNOON!

there, that didn't help anyone, did it? It's a bug. I'll go and
investigate a bit more later, and then I'll file it in the correct
location. I will not chase you down on mailing lists and denigrate your
hard work with expletive filled messages, and I suggest you refrain from
doing the same to others in future.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 01:46:12 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:46:12 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240537572.3955.13.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 18:43 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

> there, that didn't help anyone, did it? It's a bug. I'll go and
> investigate a bit more later, and then I'll file it in the correct
> location. I will not chase you down on mailing lists and denigrate your
> hard work with expletive filled messages, and I suggest you refrain from
> doing the same to others in future.

Sorry - I just went back through the thread and realized you weren't one
of the ones spreading profanities around. But still, calling it
'curseaudio', saying it's broken for everyone in the world, and claiming
it would break your hardware really isn't productive.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From cdahlin at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 01:52:23 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:52:23 -0400
Subject: Problem with Ruby GEM w/ native code
In-Reply-To: <20090423205621.GF4092@mcpierce-laptop.rdu.redhat.com>
References: <20090423205621.GF4092@mcpierce-laptop.rdu.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F11B57.7080208@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
> I'm hoping to get a little help with this. If this is the wrong list to
> discuss packaging issues, please point me to the appropriate list.
> 
> I'm trying to package a Ruby GEM (RedCloth) for Fedora. I used gem2rpm
> to generate the initial spec file. When I build it, things seem to go
> fine until the very end. At that point I see this:
> 
> error: Bad exit status from
> /home/mcpierce/Packaging/rpms/tmp/rpm-tmp.PEH4Wm (%install)
> 


Something in the install phase is failing (obviously, since that's the
only code section filled in your spec file).

I'd hope whatever it was would complain in the logs. You can add "||
echo 'foocmd failed'" to see which one is erroring (note this will eat
the error, likely subjecting you to some other stranger error message
down the line, but you can ignore that one).

- --CJD
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAknxG1cACgkQIHOkVH4pLz67OwCdG8eduDbuVqOKmoPWUtLzdLlh
kbIAn04hE+3gTfSQHsRSZcXLTiJNQ1sg
=hZP+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 02:00:23 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:00:23 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com> 
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <e76492710904231900y1a739635ha546fde1e392a650@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 17:58 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>
>> Please do lift this curse from Fedora. It is bad. It is broken to a
>> great extent. I'm glad I got rid of it before it started damaging my
>> hardware.
>
> Since you're being a bitch today, here's some karma: I rebooted earlier
> this afternoon and my network didn't come up. Having caused a nice level
> of domestic strife by rebooting the router and knocking my partner
> offline, and then caused myself a lot of frustration by fiddling with
> the router and my own system and even everything else connected by wifi
> for an hour (and losing lots of valuable work time), I noticed rt2860
> had been bumped to a new version. By you.
>

1- I repeatedly told folks that I DO NOT OWN THIS HARDWARE. I am just
maintaining the kmod because nobody else does and people need it. I
would be more than happy to give it away to someone who owns the
hardware and can do tests.

2- The issue has been reported and the package will not be pushed to
stable. If you are using rawhide, you should get used to such things.

3- However pulseaudio is not just in rawhide. It is in stable. Even
worse, it is enabled by DEFAULT! Even more worse, IT IS THE DEFAULT
SOUND SYSTEM IN FEDORA!!! I have every right to blame on who made this
happen. Pulseaudio is pure crap, rt2860 drivers aren't good but they
work (sometimes).

> I went back to the old version, rebooted, and lo and behold - up came my
> wireless.
>
> SO YOU FUCKING BROKE MY SYSTEM YOU FUCKING BASTARD YOU SHOULD PAY!!!
> 11111!!!!!! YOU ARE NOT GOD! GIVE ME BACK MY AFTERNOON!
>

I don't want to respond to this. Foul language belongs to its speaker.

> there, that didn't help anyone, did it? It's a bug. I'll go and
> investigate a bit more later, and then I'll file it in the correct
> location. I will not chase you down on mailing lists and denigrate your
> hard work with expletive filled messages, and I suggest you refrain from
> doing the same to others in future.
> --

I do appreciate your work and your time spent on this. But swallow the
big bite. IT DID NOT WORK. So, please for the good of humanity, kill
this package.

I had to change my PhD thesis topic twice. Why? Because my
calculations didn't work out right (I couldn't disprove my theory
either). So I had to put hundreds of pages of calculations and more
than a year-full of work to trash, literally. It happens. I just
accepted the fact and worked on something else.

If you are using firefox, just start typing "pulseaudio is..." on the
search bar with google engine. You'll see what suggestions it will
give you along the way.

Best,
Orcan



From jonstanley at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 02:04:24 2009
From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:04:24 -0400
Subject: Plan for tomorrow's (20090424) FESCo meeting
Message-ID: <da159fda0904231904m24aeb477q73b6727af35b4651@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a list of topics that will be discussed at tomorrow's FESCo meeting.

135	Sponsorship nomination: mmahut
137	Sponsorship Request - s4504kr
138	Sponsorship request: peter
139	Sponsorship request: jussilehtola
140	Please make me a member of 'provenpackagers'
136	FPC report - 2009-04-14
141	PulseAudio regression handling
49	Empathy - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Empathy
64	liblvm - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/liblvm

For more complete details, please visit each individual ticket.  The
report of the agenda items can be found at
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/report/9

If you would like to add something to this agenda, you can reply to
this e-mail, file a new ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/fesco,
e-mail me directly, or bring it up at the end of the meeting, during
the open floor.



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 02:17:33 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:17:33 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904231900y1a739635ha546fde1e392a650@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>
	<e76492710904231900y1a739635ha546fde1e392a650@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240539453.3955.42.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 22:00 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

> 1- I repeatedly told folks that I DO NOT OWN THIS HARDWARE. I am just
> maintaining the kmod because nobody else does and people need it. I
> would be more than happy to give it away to someone who owns the
> hardware and can do tests.
> 
> 2- The issue has been reported and the package will not be pushed to
> stable. If you are using rawhide, you should get used to such things.

I know. The point is just about the appropriate way to respond to
problems.

> I don't want to respond to this. Foul language belongs to its speaker.

Yeah, as I said, I had you confused with Callum (and Lennart and
Bastien...) who'd been swearing their way through the thread. Very sorry
for that, entirely my fault.

> > there, that didn't help anyone, did it? It's a bug. I'll go and
> > investigate a bit more later, and then I'll file it in the correct
> > location. I will not chase you down on mailing lists and denigrate your
> > hard work with expletive filled messages, and I suggest you refrain from
> > doing the same to others in future.
> > --
> 
> I do appreciate your work and your time spent on this. But swallow the
> big bite. IT DID NOT WORK. So, please for the good of humanity, kill
> this package.

I see I'm not the only one who gets confused :). I don't work on
Pulseaudio. I can barely fix a typo in a Python script, never mind hack
on sound architecture.

My only work on it has been running it for a long time (since it was
called PolypAudio) and complaining (constructively) to Lennart and Colin
Guthrie when something went wrong, and acting as a conduit for bug
reports from others. I just think it's fundamentally a project with most
of the right goals (even if I try and influence things here and there,
like in this debate) that we really need. Linux audio was a giant
horrible ball of pain before PulseAudio; in many ways it's still a giant
horrible ball of pain now, but PulseAudio is one of the bits that is
helping to get that changed. I don't think throwing the baby out with
the bathwater is the right idea.

> If you are using firefox, just start typing "pulseaudio is..." on the
> search bar with google engine. You'll see what suggestions it will
> give you along the way.

I spend large amounts of time in the places where such things get
posted, I know all the "pulseaudio is..." lines. However, I also
remember before Pulseaudio came along, there were just as many "Linux
is...." lines caused by people frustrated with the crappy way in which
sound is/was handled. I get as frustrated as Lennart does by people
whose first response to *any* kind of sound issue on *anyone's* system
is "oh, you need to remove Pulseaudio" - that kind of thing just isn't
helping anywhere. A lot of the anti-Pulse sentiment is multiplied by
this kind of thread to the point where people who never actually had any
problems with Pulse at all are parroting it all over the place. Pulse
has some problems, but it's also made a lot of things a lot better (I
wouldn't run my system without it now), and it'll continue to move in
the right direction in future.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU  Fri Apr 24 03:22:02 2009
From: nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Fernando Lopez-Lezcano)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:22:02 -0700
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 15:36 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 10:35 -0700, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 10:22 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > > Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> > > > I re-orphaned portaudio. I see that it is patched to work with
> > > > pulseaudio, which, I think, must be banned from the surface of Earth.
> > > > I am not planning to maintain a package with such a patch.
> > > 
> > > PulseAudio is the default sound solution in Fedora, so all packages using
> > > sound SHOULD support it.
> > > 
> > > IMHO, we should:
> > > * find some solution for JACK apps to work out of the box, without
> > > reconfiguring PulseAudio to work on top of JACK. Maybe this involves
> > > running JACK on top of PulseAudio (something which currently doesn't work
> > > because JACK does not support non-mmap ALSA devices nor the native
> > > PulseAudio protocol)
> > 
> > I think it is clear from the thread (and I arrived to it late - I was in
> > LAC2009), but just in case:
> > 
> > NO.
> > 
> > That solution (Jack on top of PA) does not work not because of mmap
> > access requirements of Jack. It does not work because Jack and PA are
> > _conceptually_ different and cater to different segments of the audio
> > users of Fedora and other distros. 
> > 
> > Jack is designed for very very low latency. Jack needs access to the
> > hardware devices. It cannot and should not run on "top of something
> > else". The requirement is not capricious. It is designed that way, and
> > works very well. Please don't break it. 
> 
> +1
> 
> The thing to do route Pulseaudio through Jack. Pulseaudio already has a
> Jack plugin.
> 
> Though as pointed out, *real* pro audio people have an expensive pro
> audio card dedicated to Jack, while Pulseaudio can dink around with the
> motherboard audio and keep its damn dirty mitts off the pro card.

And Fedora, as of recent (f10?, or was that f9?), makes even _that_
difficult. The _order_ of the sound cards after a reboot is
unpredictable and is not repeatable. 

So the usual way of dealing with the "pro" card within jack does not
work (ie: on one boot hw:0 could be pointing to the motherboard card, on
the next boot it could be pointing to the "pro" card). 

The only fix AFAIK is to add a modprobe.conf that defines the order of
the cards. Easy, right? (in ancient, less civilized times, the order
would always be the same, and if you did not like it there would be an
small app that would let you configure it - that's progress :-)

-- Fernando




From greno at verizon.net  Fri Apr 24 03:23:59 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:23:59 -0400
Subject: Rawhide: preupgrade depsolving problem
Message-ID: <49F130CF.3020408@verizon.net>


gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 from preupgrade has depsolving 
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit) is needed by 
package gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 (preupgrade)
gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 from preupgrade has depsolving 
problems
  --> Missing Dependency: libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit) is needed by 
package gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 (preupgrade)


Regards,
Gerry



From nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU  Fri Apr 24 03:29:41 2009
From: nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Fernando Lopez-Lezcano)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:29:41 -0700
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <20090423210120.GB29486@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090423210120.GB29486@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240543781.21923.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 23:01 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Thu, 23.04.09 15:36, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:
> 
> > > That solution (Jack on top of PA) does not work not because of mmap
> > > access requirements of Jack. It does not work because Jack and PA are
> > > _conceptually_ different and cater to different segments of the audio
> > > users of Fedora and other distros. 
> > > 
> > > Jack is designed for very very low latency. Jack needs access to the
> > > hardware devices. It cannot and should not run on "top of something
> > > else". The requirement is not capricious. It is designed that way, and
> > > works very well. Please don't break it. 
> > 
> > +1
> > 
> > The thing to do route Pulseaudio through Jack. Pulseaudio already has a
> > Jack plugin.
> 
> As I already pointed out there is no point in running PA and JACK on
> top of each other. Certainly not JACK on top of PA and not the other
> way either.
> 
> PA and JACK have different purposes. For pro audio PA needs to go out
> of the way and that's what it does with the device reservation
> logic. 
> 
> The Jack plugin for PA is more a toy for exotic uses. It is nothing to
> enable by default. Running PA on JACK is simply pointless, there is
> simply no reason why you'd want that. 

Sorry, no, no reason that you can see. 

> You don't want to have event
> sounds mixed in your pro audio stream, you don't want ekiga audio in
> it, and you don't want flash sounds or rhythmbox or totem streams
> it. 

In the general case that is probably true. 

> The whole discussion of something like this is just complete and
> utter nonsense.

Nope. The dividing line between the two worlds is actually made of
shades of grey, we don't live in a black and white world. Just because
you don't do it or can't think of an application does not mean it is
"utter nonsense"[*]. 

> So, no, "the thing" is NOT "to route PA through Jack". The thing is to
> not have them interfere with each other and cooperate. And that's what
> has been implemented now.

Sure, on that we agree completely. 
-- Fernando


[*] for example: an art installation that takes several audio feeds
coming from web browsers and processes them through a "professional"
audio chain running under Jack, records the multichannel output to
Ardour and then perhaps ships the whole thing to another place maybe
halfway around the world using netjack or jacktrip. Yes, people do that
kind of thing :-)

Well, of course, thinking about it, you can also say this is "utter
nonsense"... oh well...




From a.badger at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 04:16:14 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:16:14 -0700
Subject: Rawhide: preupgrade depsolving problem
In-Reply-To: <49F130CF.3020408@verizon.net>
References: <49F130CF.3020408@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49F13D0E.40004@gmail.com>

Gerry Reno wrote:
> 
> gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 from preupgrade has depsolving
> problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit) is needed by
> package gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 (preupgrade)
> gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 from preupgrade has depsolving
> problems
>  --> Missing Dependency: libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit) is needed by
> package gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 (preupgrade)
> 
> 
I saw that Denis Leroy had rebuilt gnome-desktop-sharp to fix this.
Denis, any reason you haven't asked for this to be tagged to final?

-Toshio

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From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 04:47:43 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:47:43 -0700
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240548463.3955.199.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 20:22 -0700, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:

> The only fix AFAIK is to add a modprobe.conf that defines the order of
> the cards. Easy, right? (in ancient, less civilized times, the order
> would always be the same, and if you did not like it there would be an
> small app that would let you configure it - that's progress :-)

I don't recall that ever being the case. The order has *always* been
unpredictable unless you had a modprobe.conf. I definitely remember
experiencing this several years ago.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From opensource at till.name  Fri Apr 24 05:45:45 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 07:45:45 +0200
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <4637.1240521032@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<8278b1b0904231354i19c125edq448ed10c3b78e9af@mail.gmail.com>
	<4637.1240521032@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <200904240745.56024.opensource@till.name>

On Do April 23 2009, Tom Lane wrote:
> King InuYasha <ngompa13 at gmail.com> writes:
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Tom Lane <tgl at redhat.com> wrote:
> >>> I think this squares with my theory up-thread that it's mostly a
> >>> network issue and not the database per se.  It would be interesting to
> >>> compare the ping times the two of you see to bugzilla.redhat.com.
> >
> > [ two responses, no data ]
>
> I take it nobody wants to sully their complaining with actual facts
> that might help narrow down the problem.

Here it takes around 13-15 seconds to load a Red Hat bugzilla but report.  
Ping is 230 ms and for one bug report, Firefox creates 20 requests which all 
have to do a seperate SSL handshake, because the server does not support to 
keep connections open or HTTP Pipelining afaict. One SSL handshake seems to 
take around 700 ms currently, because there are two requests that create a 404 
and take that long. I did the measuring using the tamper data plugin btw.

Regards
Till
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From emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr  Fri Apr 24 06:39:01 2009
From: emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr (Emmanuel Seyman)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:39:01 +0200
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904231429o69b8a5bdiae5732651332ebd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2718.1240514575@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<16de708d0904231348j68c08d20xf55f6df0cdcba1e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904231354i19c125edq448ed10c3b78e9af@mail.gmail.com>
	<4637.1240521032@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<16de708d0904231429o69b8a5bdiae5732651332ebd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090424063901.GA17622@orient.maison.lan>

* Arthur Pemberton [24/04/2009 00:59] :
>
> $ ping -c 50 -i 5 -q -s 512 bugzilla.redhat.com

Please use Firefox's Yslow extension if you want to give us
meaningful data.

Emmanuel



From mschwendt at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 07:16:25 2009
From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:16:25 +0200
Subject: Mono and pkg-config files
Message-ID: <20090424091625.323c1d08@faldor.intranet>

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/477308

gtk-sharp2 pulls in a set of -devel packages due to the new pkgconfig
dependencies in Fedora >= 11.

Does Mono need the pkgconfig .pc files at run-time?



From mcepl at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 07:15:29 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:15:29 +0200
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2718.1240514575@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<16de708d0904231348j68c08d20xf55f6df0cdcba1e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hh58c6-1b7.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-23, 20:48 GMT, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> It could also just be a rendering speed of the browser. Really.  
> As I said, a good thick client would solve most of the problems 
> indicated in this thread.

eclipse-mylyn in Rawhide seems to be almost useful ... except 
I have created so many greasemonkey scripts to make my firefox 
experience better, that eclipse now feels kind of bare.

Matej



From denis at poolshark.org  Fri Apr 24 08:38:42 2009
From: denis at poolshark.org (Denis Leroy)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:38:42 +0200
Subject: Rawhide: preupgrade depsolving problem
In-Reply-To: <49F13D0E.40004@gmail.com>
References: <49F130CF.3020408@verizon.net> <49F13D0E.40004@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F17A92.7040909@poolshark.org>

On 04/24/2009 06:16 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> Gerry Reno wrote:
>> gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 from preupgrade has depsolving
>> problems
>>   -->  Missing Dependency: libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit) is needed by
>> package gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 (preupgrade)
>> gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 from preupgrade has depsolving
>> problems
>>   -->  Missing Dependency: libnautilus-burn.so.4()(64bit) is needed by
>> package gnome-desktop-sharp-2.26.0-1.fc11.x86_64 (preupgrade)
>>
>>
> I saw that Denis Leroy had rebuilt gnome-desktop-sharp to fix this.
> Denis, any reason you haven't asked for this to be tagged to final?

Hi,

Yes there were other issues that had to be resolved concerning 
nautilus-cd-burner. Finally we've brought nautilus-cd-burner-libs back 
to life, (but nautilus-cd-burner is gone), so this should resolve itself 
through the last nautilus-cd-burner package and gnome-python2-desktop 
build I just filed to be tagged.

-denis



From rjones at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 08:53:14 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:53:14 +0100
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240521597.720.199.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
	<1240521597.720.199.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424085314.GA21097@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 04:19:57PM -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:48 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> > What is wrong with using mock?
> 
> It's slow, awkward and completely un-neccessary.

And needs root to go and set it up.  And can't be nested.

Mock, for example, isn't useful for us building 32 bit appliances on
64 bit machines.  (Neither is multilib for that matter - we really do
need real cross-compilation and/or febootstrap + qemu).

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any
software inside the virtual machine.  Supports Linux and Windows.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-df/



From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Fri Apr 24 09:28:29 2009
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:28:29 +0300
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <20090424063901.GA17622@orient.maison.lan>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>	<16de708d0904230011o499b0cfub9712019de21fda4@mail.gmail.com>	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com>	<2718.1240514575@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<16de708d0904231348j68c08d20xf55f6df0cdcba1e8@mail.gmail.com>	<8278b1b0904231354i19c125edq448ed10c3b78e9af@mail.gmail.com>	<4637.1240521032@sss.pgh.pa.us>	<16de708d0904231429o69b8a5bdiae5732651332ebd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090424063901.GA17622@orient.maison.lan>
Message-ID: <49F1863D.3090200@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 04/24/2009 09:39 AM, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> * Arthur Pemberton [24/04/2009 00:59] :
>   
>> $ ping -c 50 -i 5 -q -s 512 bugzilla.redhat.com
>>     
>
> Please use Firefox's Yslow extension if you want to give us
> meaningful data.
>   
from my home connection Yslow says 7-15 secs.  For instance in the case of
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=189949 , yslow prints C 
274.3K 11.881s
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489135 , yslow prints 7.138 s
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/request.cgi?requester=wolfy%40nobugconsulting.ro&requestee=wolfy%40nobugconsulting.ro&do_union=1&group=type&action=queue 
I get B 242.8K 6.56s
http://tinyurl.com/dl8mmt 6.688 s

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ 4.503s
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers 4.111s
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers 2.08s
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/PackageStatus 8.733 s



From rjones at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 10:01:11 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:01:11 +0100
Subject: libjpeg upsream
Message-ID: <20090424100111.GA21302@amd.home.annexia.org>

We've found a bug in libjpeg (mingw32-libjpeg, a package for the
Windows cross-compiler).  It's actually a segfault, so is possibly a
security issue:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497492

Anyhow, the patch needs to go upstream.  Am I right in thinking that
libjpeg doesn't have an active upstream? (latest version, the one
which everyone uses, was released 11 years ago)  Is there any project
to resurrect libjpeg?

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any
software inside the virtual machine.  Supports Linux and Windows.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-df/



From kalev at smartlink.ee  Fri Apr 24 10:23:44 2009
From: kalev at smartlink.ee (Kalev Lember)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:23:44 +0300
Subject: New packages during rawhide freeze
Message-ID: <49F19330.6020605@smartlink.ee>

Hello,

Recent rawhide composes have pulled in some .fc10 rpms which seem to
originate from Fedora 10's stable updates repo. For example, "rawhide
report: 20090422 changes" lists 10 new packages, from which I checked
first few and they all seemed to be .fc10 releases.

One of my new packages got pulled in like that too
(mingw32-libp11-0.2.4-1.fc10.noarch), even though I have a F-11 branch
and I have built it for both F-11 and devel in koji. I have also 
requested the package to be added to Fedora 11 updates in Bodhi, but for
some reason it still pulled in .fc10 package instead of the correct .fc11.

Installing Fedora 10 packages in rawhide doesn't strike me as a good
idea, because they are most probably compiled using old gcc, for example.

Why does it happen? Did I (and other people who have pushed new packages
in Fedora 10 during rawhide freeze) do something wrong here?

-- 
Best regards,
Kalev Lember



From bnocera at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 10:34:13 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:34:13 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240539453.3955.42.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>
	<e76492710904231900y1a739635ha546fde1e392a650@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240539453.3955.42.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240569253.5037.28.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 19:17 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
<snip>
> Yeah, as I said, I had you confused with Callum (and Lennart and
> Bastien...) who'd been swearing their way through the thread. Very sorry
> for that, entirely my fault.

I didn't swear once. Remember, I'm passive-aggressive...



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 10:36:05 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:36:05 +0100
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240516474.720.147.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<gsnvnk$md9$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240516474.720.147.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904241136.05736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Thursday 23 April 2009 20:54:34 Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 22:46 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > > That doesn't make them wrong about OpenID's UI sucking.
> >
> > A proprietary Google "standard" "based on OpenID" isn't a solution to
> > that though.
>
> Yes it is a solution. A monopolistic Google only solution, but it's a
> solution.
>
> That's why I'm saying we better come up with an un-biased free solution,
> and do it fast. Before Google gains ground.

It is NOT a monopolistic Google-only solution, that's what became clear after 
actually reading a particular comment *FROM ONE OF THE DESIGNERS OF OpenID* on 
that blog post.

About half-way down, quote:


David Recordon
Oct. 30th, 2008 at 12:51 am

Google is taking advantage of a feature in OpenID 2.0 known as "Directed 
Identity". This allows an OpenID 2.0 Relying Party to start the OpenID protocol 
flow using a known URL (Yahoo!'s is http://openid.yahoo.com/) to allow for "one 
click" style login dialogues. By performing discovery on this URL, using the 
XRDS XML format, the OpenID Provider advertises the OpenID Endpoint URL for the 
Relying Party to make a request against. Google is doing this correctly with 
the URL to perform discovery against being 
https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id.

The piece that Google is currently doing differently is requiring 
pre-registration of each OpenID Relying Party before users can login to a given 
site. This does break the common deployment of OpenID on the web today, but 
Eric Sachs of Google has said on the OpenID mailing list 
(http://tinyurl.com/562mec) that this is temporary as they work to stabilize 
their OpenID Provider: "We just need to do the standard scaling, stability, 
translation quality, etc. evaluation to make sure there are no major problems. 
If we are lucky, that won't take much time. However it is more then likely that 
we will need to tweak things in our user interface to make it easier to 
understand, and unfortunately translating any such tweaks into 40+ languages 
takes awhile."

As for using email addresses as OpenIDs, this is something the OpenID community 
is talking about quite a bit right now; Google included.



From a.badger at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 11:12:25 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 04:12:25 -0700
Subject: Mono and pkg-config files
In-Reply-To: <20090424091625.323c1d08@faldor.intranet>
References: <20090424091625.323c1d08@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <49F19E99.7000509@gmail.com>

Michael Schwendt wrote:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/477308
> 
> gtk-sharp2 pulls in a set of -devel packages due to the new pkgconfig
> dependencies in Fedora >= 11.
> 
> Does Mono need the pkgconfig .pc files at run-time?
> 
I know of no case that mono needs the .pc files at run-time.

The bug report you have linked reminds me of similar discussions we had
when the mono packaging guidelines were being drafted.  It was thought
at that time that creating a -devel package for a single .pc file was
preferable to dragging a bunch of -devel packages onto an end-user's box
that just needs runtime support.

You can point people at:
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Mono#-devel_packages

If people would like to get the Mono Guidelines changed to address
issues like this, we're definitely open to having more sensible
Guidelines.  However, they'd have to address the underlying issues (in
this case, that the pkgconfig files are dragging in other -devel packages).

-Toshio

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From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 11:24:35 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:24:35 +0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240537132.3955.8.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1240537132.3955.8.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <200904241624.35693.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Friday 24 April 2009 06:38:52 Adam Williamson wrote:
>
> I don't see anything particularly wrong with those numbers. Obviously a
> lot of valid bugs have been filed and properly fixed. The amount that
> are currently outstanding is not at all unreasonable as a proportion of
> the total, and not an unmanageable number of bugs taken absolutely. I
> suspect you'd see very similar proportions if you looked at, say, all
> kernel bugs, or all X bugs.
> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
> http://www.happyassassin.net

The important part is not numbers.
Much more important is what that bugs are about.
Try to find bugs with keys "skipping" "choppy" "lag" "crackling".
You'll find a few NEW bugs but you'll also find a lot of CLOSED bugs.
This "about skipping" bugs are reported every few weeks.
Soon they're closed. A week later they are reported again.
Will it help if I reply to each of that bugs with "me too"?

And let me state again: I don't find the situation with ALSA good.
I'm sure there is a need for a system-wide sound server,
and PA may become that server. I enjoy the way projectM-pulse works.

But for now (for me)
NO PA = One application can use the sound card 
and that application works as expected.
PA = Many applications can use the sound card at once,
but none of them works as expected - a combination of clicking,
fast playback, kaffeine eating CPU and memory and no sound input.

The fact that PA is default makes me fill like someone 
is using me as a sea-hog to test alpha software.
But I may even agree with that situation.
The thing I don't like at all, is when you say PA has (big) problems
and PA maintainers tell you that there are no problems and if you have
one you should report it and it will be fixed (at once), 
and if it isn't fixed then you're a minority and you are not important.

Suren



From mjg at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 11:40:09 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:40:09 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240508027.14173.776.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240447571.14173.753.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090423034043.GA14900@redhat.com>
	<1240463778.14173.763.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090423131328.GA14962@srcf.ucam.org>
	<1240508027.14173.776.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090424114009.GA4569@srcf.ucam.org>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:33:47AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 14:13 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > The "bug" is exposing all of the native mixer functionality in the alsa 
> > mixer implementation and then presenting that in the UI. This is 
> > precisely the problem that PA's mixer design fixes.
> 
> No, it isn't. Look closely at both the 'hilarious' screenshots: most of
> the channels are duplicated (in Dave's case) or shown over ten times (in
> Will's). That's why the whole thing is *so* long.
> 
> Just displaying all the available channels wouldn't be a bug in either
> case.

No, what you're seeing there is that the mixer implements various 
different stages for the same channel. In Dave's case it appears that 
they're independently controllable for the input and output paths - note 
that some of the duplicates have "record" and the others don't.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 11:42:30 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:42:30 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <2d319b780904231229x40a174a0y68cabccbb3b7dffd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240514334.720.134.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<2d319b780904231229x40a174a0y68cabccbb3b7dffd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904241242.30807.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Thursday 23 April 2009 20:29:57 Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote:

> If only you were actually helping him instead of talking so much (and so
> badly).

If Lennart were actually listening, that might work.



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 11:53:20 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:53:20 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <200904241253.21162.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Thursday 23 April 2009 21:50:57 Lennart Poettering wrote:

> However my plans for F12 should hopefully help to make this issue go
> away: on many machines we have quite a few volume controls in
> series. e.g. on Thinkpads there is the hw volume that is controlled by
> those magic keys, and then there is master, and then there is PCM. My
> plan is to collapse them all into a single slider which is possible if
> we have dB information about the sliders. The resulting slider would
> be the multiplication of the seperate sliders. This would both
> increase the range and the granularity of the overall volume slider
> and also allows us to fix the mixer initialization issue a bit since
> we would control both PCM and Master.

...this is not the right way to go.

Often, doing so with (say) a high-level CD input, will lead to clipping 
somewhere in the hardware as soon as you add another signal. You have more than 
one volume control for a reason.

> This should fix a lot of problems for a lot of people. However it will
> of course also annoy Mr. Lerwick. But I fear I have to live with that
> I guess.

This is - perhaps understandably, from reading the preceding discussion - being 
completely dismissive of a real user with, from his point of view, a valid 
complaint and use case. What makes him (and I, and others) upset is the clear 
fact that you're not interested in "supporting" our use-cases *at all* ... and 
we don't have any particularly bizarre needs.



From limb at jcomserv.net  Fri Apr 24 12:03:16 2009
From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 07:03:16 -0500
Subject: libjpeg upsream
In-Reply-To: <20090424100111.GA21302@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <20090424100111.GA21302@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <49F1AA84.9090609@jcomserv.net>

Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> We've found a bug in libjpeg (mingw32-libjpeg, a package for the
> Windows cross-compiler).  It's actually a segfault, so is possibly a
> security issue:
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497492
>
> Anyhow, the patch needs to go upstream.  Am I right in thinking that
> libjpeg doesn't have an active upstream? (latest version, the one
> which everyone uses, was released 11 years ago)  Is there any project
> to resurrect libjpeg?
>
> Rich.
>
>   
Yes and no.  The Sourceforge project is the official upstream, but 
development there is in a funny state.  The current maintainer has 
essentially abandoned version 6 and is working on version 7, but isn't 
committing to CVS or published more than a beta, and nothing advertises 
any of this on Sourceforge or anywhere else.  I made an attempt to 
reignite things and get a maintenance release of version 6 out, with 
various patches that most distros carry or want included, such as the 
crop patch, but haven't gotten very far.  Please bring this up on the 
mailing list associated with the libjpeg sourceforge project and we'll 
see where we can go with it.  I'm not sure if Guido has addressed your 
issue in version 7, but if it's got security ramifications, we need to 
get it out there.  Adam Tkac also expressed interest in contributing 
some patches, so he's also someone we'll want to involve.

Jon

-- 
in your fear, speak only peace
in your fear, seek only love

-d. bowie



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 12:05:52 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:05:52 +0100
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <20090423231241.GA7720@bludgeon.org>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904231429o69b8a5bdiae5732651332ebd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090423231241.GA7720@bludgeon.org>
Message-ID: <200904241305.52793.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Friday 24 April 2009 00:12:41 Ray Van Dolson wrote:

> Don't know how much of the time is spent doing JavaScript or generating
> the huge list of components...

>From previous discussions, it seems the main issue has been the JavaScript for 
population the list of components. It's much slower in "older" browsers than 
the latest releases as well.



From jwboyer at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 12:25:42 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:25:42 -0400
Subject: RFE: Add -p to the diff options to provide more context in
	commit mails
In-Reply-To: <20090423183541.41be4f57@dhcp-100-2-144.bos.redhat.com>
References: <20090423183541.41be4f57@dhcp-100-2-144.bos.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090424122542.GA2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 06:35:41PM -0400, Chuck Ebbert wrote:
>This trivial patch adds more context to the diffs in commit mails:
>
>--- CVSROOT.orig/syncmail
>+++ CVSROOT/syncmail
>@@ -147,7 +147,7 @@ def calculate_diff(filespec):
>         brief = ""
>         if optNoDiff:
>             brief = "--brief"
>-        diffcmd = '/usr/bin/cvs -f diff %s -kk -u -N -r %s -r %s %s' % (
>+        diffcmd = '/usr/bin/cvs -f diff %s -kk -u -p -N -r %s -r %s %s' % (
>             brief,
>             oldrev, newrev, file)
>         fp = os.popen(diffcmd)

Ack.

Also, OMG A PATCH ON THE DEVEL LIST?!

josh



From jwboyer at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 12:30:07 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:30:07 -0400
Subject: New packages during rawhide freeze
In-Reply-To: <49F19330.6020605@smartlink.ee>
References: <49F19330.6020605@smartlink.ee>
Message-ID: <20090424123007.GB2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 01:23:44PM +0300, Kalev Lember wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Recent rawhide composes have pulled in some .fc10 rpms which seem to
>originate from Fedora 10's stable updates repo. For example, "rawhide
>report: 20090422 changes" lists 10 new packages, from which I checked
>first few and they all seemed to be .fc10 releases.

This is due to koji tag inheritence.  It should arguably stop doing that
during a freeze...

>One of my new packages got pulled in like that too
>(mingw32-libp11-0.2.4-1.fc10.noarch), even though I have a F-11 branch
>and I have built it for both F-11 and devel in koji. I have also 
>requested the package to be added to Fedora 11 updates in Bodhi, but for
>some reason it still pulled in .fc10 package instead of the correct .fc11.

F11 Updates doesn't do inheritence to rawhide, since all of those are in
'pending' state.

However, if you would like those new packages in rawhide instead of via
updates you can file a ticket with rel-eng to get them included in
dist-f11.

>Installing Fedora 10 packages in rawhide doesn't strike me as a good
>idea, because they are most probably compiled using old gcc, for example.
>
>Why does it happen? Did I (and other people who have pushed new packages
>in Fedora 10 during rawhide freeze) do something wrong here?

No, you did nothing wrong.  In fact, you highlighted a pretty good issue
that we need to look at.  Yay!

josh



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 12:32:04 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:32:04 -0400
Subject: RFE: Add -p to the diff options to provide more context in
	commit mails
In-Reply-To: <20090424122542.GA2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
References: <20090423183541.41be4f57@dhcp-100-2-144.bos.redhat.com>
	<20090424122542.GA2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <1240576324.28879.134.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 08:25 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
> Also, OMG A PATCH ON THE DEVEL LIST?!

Makes a refreshing change from the 10-foot bonfires.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet at gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From kalev at smartlink.ee  Fri Apr 24 13:28:00 2009
From: kalev at smartlink.ee (Kalev Lember)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:28:00 +0300
Subject: New packages during rawhide freeze
In-Reply-To: <20090424123007.GB2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
References: <49F19330.6020605@smartlink.ee>
	<20090424123007.GB2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <49F1BE60.9050205@smartlink.ee>

Josh Boyer wrote:
>> One of my new packages got pulled in like that too
>> (mingw32-libp11-0.2.4-1.fc10.noarch), even though I have a F-11 branch
>> and I have built it for both F-11 and devel in koji. I have also 
>> requested the package to be added to Fedora 11 updates in Bodhi, but for
>> some reason it still pulled in .fc10 package instead of the correct .fc11.
>>     
>
> F11 Updates doesn't do inheritence to rawhide, since all of those are in
> 'pending' state.
>
> However, if you would like those new packages in rawhide instead of via
> updates you can file a ticket with rel-eng to get them included in
> dist-f11.
>   

I don't really care if my new packages are included in dist-f11 or if
they come in via updates. However, I surely don't want .fc10 versions in
dist-f11, so they should be either completely removed or updated to
.fc11 versions.

Do you think the .fc10 packages that have crept in during this freeze
will be removed from rawhide all together, or should every maintainer
file a separate ticket with rel-eng for every package to get them
updated to proper .fc11 versions?

-- 
Best regards,
Kalev Lember



From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 13:31:55 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:31:55 +0500
Subject: kde-4.2.2 - kded4 eating cpu cycles
Message-ID: <200904241831.55775.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

Some strange issues here with kde-4.2.2 update.
After the update is done and I restart the system and login
kded4 is taking 100% on one of the CPUs.
The problem is gone on the next restart 
and doesn't come back(at least yet).
It has happened on both F10 systems I updated to 4.2.2 -
on my home desktop and laptop.
Does anyone know what can be the cause of this?

Suren



From jwboyer at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 13:32:53 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:32:53 -0400
Subject: New packages during rawhide freeze
In-Reply-To: <49F1BE60.9050205@smartlink.ee>
References: <49F19330.6020605@smartlink.ee>
	<20090424123007.GB2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
	<49F1BE60.9050205@smartlink.ee>
Message-ID: <20090424133253.GD2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 04:28:00PM +0300, Kalev Lember wrote:
>Josh Boyer wrote:
>>> One of my new packages got pulled in like that too
>>> (mingw32-libp11-0.2.4-1.fc10.noarch), even though I have a F-11 branch
>>> and I have built it for both F-11 and devel in koji. I have also 
>>> requested the package to be added to Fedora 11 updates in Bodhi, but for
>>> some reason it still pulled in .fc10 package instead of the correct .fc11.
>>>     
>>
>> F11 Updates doesn't do inheritence to rawhide, since all of those are in
>> 'pending' state.
>>
>> However, if you would like those new packages in rawhide instead of via
>> updates you can file a ticket with rel-eng to get them included in
>> dist-f11.
>>   
>
>I don't really care if my new packages are included in dist-f11 or if
>they come in via updates. However, I surely don't want .fc10 versions in
>dist-f11, so they should be either completely removed or updated to
>.fc11 versions.
>
>Do you think the .fc10 packages that have crept in during this freeze
>will be removed from rawhide all together, or should every maintainer
>file a separate ticket with rel-eng for every package to get them
>updated to proper .fc11 versions?

That's a good question.  I'll wait for Jesse to wake up and read this
so we can discuss it.

Stay tuned.

josh



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 24 13:43:58 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:43:58 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424134358.GA30273@tango.0pointer.de>

On Thu, 23.04.09 20:22, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano (nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU) wrote:

> And Fedora, as of recent (f10?, or was that f9?), makes even _that_
> difficult. The _order_ of the sound cards after a reboot is
> unpredictable and is not repeatable. 
> 
> So the usual way of dealing with the "pro" card within jack does not
> work (ie: on one boot hw:0 could be pointing to the motherboard card, on
> the next boot it could be pointing to the "pro" card). 
> 
> The only fix AFAIK is to add a modprobe.conf that defines the order of
> the cards. Easy, right? (in ancient, less civilized times, the order
> would always be the same, and if you did not like it there would be an
> small app that would let you configure it - that's progress :-)

system-config-soundcard used to write 'stable' card index into a
modprobe fragment. Doing that often broke hotplug however: if you plug
in a card for which no such modprobe.conf fragment exists it will take
up the first available index. If you then plug in a card for which
such an index has been configured it might find the index taken and
hence fails to initialize. We got gazillions of bug reports about
situations like this. s-c-s has been deprecated due to that.

You don't need stable card indexes. Use the card names instead. Just
have a look in /proc/asound/cards and use the names in the
[]. I.e. "front:Intel" instead of "front:0". Or "hw:AudioPCI" instead
of "hw:1" and so on.

Relying on card indexes is simply broken. The same as it would be to
handle network interfaces with ifindexes. It's time people forget
about them.

The card names are based on the card model mostly. For most people
that should be stable enough. Only very few folks have more than once
card of the same model plugged in. There has been some talk at making
those completely as well, similar to how network interface names are
stable. You can rename cards during runtime by writing to a sysfs
file. Unfortunately sound cards usually bear no unique identifier like
the MAC address for network cards and hence doing this is not as
straightforward as it seems. Nonetheless we really should do this
eventually. Would be great if someone could take this up and prepare
patches for udev.

Better still then using the card name is using the hal path or some
udev path/identifier for identifying cards. PA does that.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 24 13:56:44 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:56:44 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <200904241624.35693.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1240537132.3955.8.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904241624.35693.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090424135644.GB30273@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 16:24, Suren Karapetyan (surenkarapetyan at gmail.com) wrote:

> The important part is not numbers.

Ah, so it's more about anecdotes?

> Much more important is what that bugs are about.
> Try to find bugs with keys "skipping" "choppy" "lag" "crackling".
> You'll find a few NEW bugs but you'll also find a lot of CLOSED bugs.
> This "about skipping" bugs are reported every few weeks.
> Soon they're closed. A week later they are reported again.

If you make accusations of me handling bug reports incorrectly, how
about actually providing references to real bug reports? Otherwise what
you do is simple slander.

> I'm sure there is a need for a system-wide sound server,

PA is not a system-wide sound server.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From tgl at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 13:58:33 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:58:33 -0400
Subject: libjpeg upsream 
In-Reply-To: <20090424100111.GA21302@amd.home.annexia.org> 
References: <20090424100111.GA21302@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <23564.1240581513@sss.pgh.pa.us>

"Richard W.M. Jones" <rjones at redhat.com> writes:
> We've found a bug in libjpeg (mingw32-libjpeg, a package for the
> Windows cross-compiler).  It's actually a segfault, so is possibly a
> security issue:

I think you've found a bug in some calling application, not in
libjpeg.  The proposed patch is completely bogus: it ignores one
of the core design principles of libjpeg's .h files, which is to
*fail* if the caller has read some conflicting definitions, not
silently define a different ABI.

			regards, tom lane



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Fri Apr 24 13:58:57 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:58:57 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 22:50 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Firstly the alsa mixer init database should have set up your system
> correctly. The database is incomplete unfortunately since most people
> don't send in a patch for the db after they fixed those settings
> manually.

Your database will _always_ be incomplete. There will _always_ be new
hardware, and users will _always_ have to tweak things manually.

You can do well, and it's a wonderful thing to be doing -- but you
_have_ to accept that you can't get it right in all cases, so you have
to let the user fix it.

> However my plans for F12 should hopefully help to make this issue go
> away: on many machines we have quite a few volume controls in
> series. e.g. on Thinkpads there is the hw volume that is controlled by
> those magic keys, and then there is master, and then there is PCM. My
> plan is to collapse them all into a single slider which is possible if
> we have dB information about the sliders. The resulting slider would
> be the multiplication of the seperate sliders. This would both
> increase the range and the granularity of the overall volume slider
> and also allows us to fix the mixer initialization issue a bit since
> we would control both PCM and Master. 

That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. I've often had to play
around with levels for PCM vs. Master vs. other things to maximise the
resulting volume? without introducing distortion -- you're effectively
downgrading my audio capabilities unless you _always_ get it absolutely
right. On which topic, see above.

And then factor in the observation that we're talking about analogue
circuitry and physical devices which will even vary a little from one
machine to the next machine off the production line. Not to mention what
my ears can detect. Your database _cannot_ know.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation

? And that's even without the bit where I plug in external speakers and
  want to use those in _addition_ to the internal ones, which PA also
  breaks.



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Fri Apr 24 14:14:15 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:14:15 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240582455.24529.322.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 17:58 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> He doesn't need to imply anything. Curseaudio is unbroken only in your
> system(s) and possibly in a countably many other people's.
> 
> > Also, what's the point of listing closed bugs?
> >
> 
> They are not all closed. There are many OPEN's as well as WONTFIX' and
> WORKSFORME's.
> 
> Please do lift this curse from Fedora. It is bad. It is broken to a
> great extent. I'm glad I got rid of it before it started damaging my
> hardware.
> 
> Pretty please!

Orcan, I don't think this is very helpful.

I think many people have had similar experiences -- I actually disabled
PulseAudio completely in my own F-10 machines and especially my
father's, because audio was just too unreliable.

But Fedora is _supposed_ to be bleeding edge. It may have been a little
_too_ bleeding edge in that case, but it's also a lot better in F-11
than it used to be. A lot of work has gone into fixing the bugs, and
personally I'm determined to stick with it in F-11.

Amusingly, the first time I noticed PulseAudio actually 'doing its job'
and mixing multiple streams was completely counterproductive -- it was
when I was trying to give a presentation from OpenOffice, and because
the video was playing on both screens, so did the audio... slightly out
of sync with each other, giving me an echo :)

But still, I'm determined to stick with it. And I don't think that
attacking it on those grounds is particularly useful.

The issue which we _should_ address is how regressions are handled when
they're actually a _design_ issue in PulseAudio rather than simply a
bug. It's very disturbing that regressions are being marked as WONTFIX,
and I think we need to do better than that.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 24 14:18:44 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:18:44 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <200904241253.21162.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904241253.21162.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090424141844.GC30273@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 12:53, Bill Crawford (billcrawford1970 at gmail.com) wrote:

> > those magic keys, and then there is master, and then there is PCM. My
> > plan is to collapse them all into a single slider which is possible if
> > we have dB information about the sliders. The resulting slider would
> > be the multiplication of the seperate sliders. This would both
> > increase the range and the granularity of the overall volume slider
> > and also allows us to fix the mixer initialization issue a bit since
> > we would control both PCM and Master.
> 
> ...this is not the right way to go.

You are wrong.

> Often, doing so with (say) a high-level CD input, will lead to clipping 
> somewhere in the hardware as soon as you add another signal. You have more than 
> one volume control for a reason.

Uh?

Not sure if I get what you exactly want, but let me say three things: 

Firstly I believe that playing audio cds via the classic 'analog' path
is obsolete. CDs should be ripped sector by sector and played as PCM
streams to the sound card. Only that allows flexibly moving cd audio
between different sound cards and makes it possible to handle external
usb disk drives correctly.

Secondly, the logic to select the volumes for the various sliders is
going from the outermost slider to the innermost always coming closer
to the actual volume you want to achieve. That means that the
outermost (hopefully analog) slider will do the 'biggest' part of the
volume adjustment while the remaining sliders (usually digital) are
mostly initialized to 0dB or shortly below. That's the best thing to
avoid clipping in the hw.

Thirdly: of course if you mix several 16bit streams into one 16bit
stream you might end up with clipping. It's not as tragic as it sounds
however: most of them time only one stream plays, and usually for good
CDs the average signal level has enough headroom to allow mixing at
least two streams without clipping. And finally there are plans to add
a simple range comrpession scheme to the mixing process for the cases
where clipping might happen.

> > This should fix a lot of problems for a lot of people. However it will
> > of course also annoy Mr. Lerwick. But I fear I have to live with that
> > I guess.
> 
> This is - perhaps understandably, from reading the preceding discussion - being 
> completely dismissive of a real user with, from his point of view, a valid 
> complaint and use case. What makes him (and I, and others) upset is the clear 
> fact that you're not interested in "supporting" our use-cases *at all* ... and 
> we don't have any particularly bizarre needs.

As mentioned there's always 'alsamixer'.

Please don't claim I wouldn't listen. You are confusing 'listening'
with 'agreeing'. I am aware of this uncomon use-case of using a sound
card as a hw mixer for line-in. And I have decided it is a use-case
that is out of scope for PA.

Now, what about you folks and listening? You keep repeating the same
thing over and over again. And I respond the same and the same thing
over and over again: we don't make the uncommon uses impossible. All
we do is we make the common uses simple. And we leave enough tools for
the uncommon uses: 'alsamixer' or a similar tool that exposes the full
ALSA control set.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 24 14:19:12 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:19:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <20090424085314.GA21097@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
	<1240521597.720.199.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424085314.GA21097@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241018330.27791@localhost.localdomain>



On Fri, 24 Apr 2009, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 04:19:57PM -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 14:48 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
>>> What is wrong with using mock?
>>
>> It's slow, awkward and completely un-neccessary.
>
> And needs root to go and set it up.  And can't be nested.
>
> Mock, for example, isn't useful for us building 32 bit appliances on
> 64 bit machines.


Why not? I've built lots of 32 bit packages on 64bit machines using mock 
and setarch.

-sv



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 24 14:21:13 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:21:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090424 changes
Message-ID: <20090424142114.120361F81FB@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Fri Apr 24 06:15:03 UTC 2009

New package nautilus-cd-burner
        Easy to use CD burning for Gnome
Updated Packages:

acpid-1.0.8-4.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Zdenek Prikryl <zprikryl at redhat.com> - 1.0.8-4
- Fixed CVE-2009-0798 (too many open files DoS)


authconfig-5.4.10-1.fc11
------------------------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 Tomas Mraz <tmraz at redhat.com> - 5.4.10-1
- update PAM configuration when updating from old authconfig versions (#495924)


bluez-4.37-1.fc11
-----------------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 4.37-1
- Update to 4.37


bouncycastle-1.43-1.fc11
------------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget [DOT] fedora [AT] gmail [DOT] com> - 1.43-1
- Import Bouncy Castle 1.43.

* Sat Apr 18 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget [DOT] fedora [AT] gmail [DOT] com> - 1.42-3
- Don't build AOT bits. The package needs java1.6


bouncycastle-mail-1.43-1.fc11
-----------------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget [DOT] fedora [AT] gmail [DOT] com> - 1.43-1
- Import Bouncy Castle 1.43.

* Sat Apr 18 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget [DOT] fedora [AT] gmail [DOT] com> - 1.42-3
- Don't build AOT bits. The package needs java1.6

* Sat Apr 18 2009 Orcan Ogetbil <oget [DOT] fedora [AT] gmail [DOT] com> - 1.42-4
- Rebuild


e2fsprogs-1.41.4-8.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com> 1.41.4-7
- Fix ext4 resize issues (#496982)

* Wed Apr 22 2009 Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com> 1.41.4-8
- Fix support for external journals


gcc-4.4.0-1
-----------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 4.4.0-1
- update from gcc-4_4-branch
  - GCC 4.4.0 release
  - PRs libstdc++/39802, c++/39639, c/39855, rtl-optimization/39762,
	testsuite/39781, tree-optimization/39824
- fix up DSE (PR middle-end/39794)
- debuginfo fixes for VLA and nested/contained functions (#459374)
- improve -ftree-switch-conversion optimization if the constant is the
  same in all cases

* Mon Apr 20 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 4.4.0-0.35
- update from gcc-4_4-branch
  - PRs middle-end/39804, target/39678, target/39767, tree-optimization/39675,
	tree-optimization/39764


generic-logos-11.0.0-1.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> - 11.0.0-1
- updates for Fedora 11


gnome-media-2.26.0-3.fc11
-------------------------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-3
- Don't show debug when disabling the debug output (#493138)


gnome-system-monitor-2.26.1-2.fc11
----------------------------------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2
- Fix sensitivity of menu items (#496860)


gnote-0.2.0-1.fc11
------------------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 Rahul Sundaram <sundaram at fedoraproject.org> - 0.2.0-1
- new upstream release


gtk2-2.16.1-3.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.16.1-3
- Don't open double browser windows from about dialog


highlight-2.8-3.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 2.8-1
- New upstream release

* Mon Apr 20 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 2.8-3
- Adding GUI subpackage


ifstatus-1.1.0-5.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Adam Miller <maxamillion [AT] gmail.com> - 1.1.0-5
- Added CXXFLAGS and CXFLAGS to resolve debuginfo sources issue


krb5-auth-dialog-0.8-4.fc11
---------------------------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhatcom> - 0.8-4
- Don't show bubbles before the icon is there
- Use the same invisible char as the rest of the world


ltsp-5.1.71-1.fc11
------------------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> - 5.1.71-1
- Bug #497177 Fix pulseaudio daemon launch on clients
- Fedora 11 points to final mirrorlists instead of rawhide


moin-1.8.2-2.fc11
-----------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi> 1.8.2-2
- Fix CVE-2008-0781 with two patches from upstream


mono-2.4-19.fc11
----------------
* Wed Apr 15 2009 Toshio Kuratomi <toshio at fedoraproject.org> 2.4-18
- Enable bootstrap code and ppc64.  If this succeeds we'll build -19 right
  afterwards with bootstrap code turned off.
  Remember: you can't merge the ppc64 enabling to older branches without first
  bootstrapping once.

* Wed Apr 15 2009 Toshio Kuratomi <toshio at fedoraproject.org> 2.4-19
- And turn off bootstrapping and make sure it rebuilds on all platforms.


ninvaders-0.1.1-3.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Adam Miller <maxamillion [AT] gmail.com> - 0.1.1-3
- Patched Makefile to include $RPM_OPT_FLAGS to fix debuginfo issue


numpy-1.3.0-4.fc11
------------------
* Fri Apr 17 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> 1.3.0-3
- Moved linalg, fft back to main package.

* Fri Apr 17 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> 1.3.0-4
- EVR bump for pygame chainbuild.


rhythmbox-0.12.0.92-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 0.12.0.92-1
- Update to 0.12.0.92


seahorse-plugins-2.26.1-2.fc11
------------------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2
- Make seahorse-agent clean up its tempdir


system-config-bind-4.0.12-2.fc11
--------------------------------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik at redhat.com> - 4.0.12-2
- dnssec workaround (rhbz#496017)


valgrind-3.4.1-2
----------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 3.4.1-2
- redirect x86_64 ld.so strlen early (#495645)


xorg-x11-drv-intel-2.7.0-2.fc11
-------------------------------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 2.7.0-2
- Add intel-gpu-tools subpackage


Summary:
Added Packages: 1
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 25
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.i386 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.x86_64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)





From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 24 14:45:13 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:45:13 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 14:58, David Woodhouse (dwmw2 at infradead.org) wrote:

> 
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 22:50 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > Firstly the alsa mixer init database should have set up your system
> > correctly. The database is incomplete unfortunately since most people
> > don't send in a patch for the db after they fixed those settings
> > manually.
> 
> Your database will _always_ be incomplete. There will _always_ be new
> hardware, and users will _always_ have to tweak things manually.
> 
> You can do well, and it's a wonderful thing to be doing -- but you
> _have_ to accept that you can't get it right in all cases, so you have
> to let the user fix it.

Yes. I am aware of that. That's one of the reasons there is alsamixer
shipped with our distro.

> > However my plans for F12 should hopefully help to make this issue go
> > away: on many machines we have quite a few volume controls in
> > series. e.g. on Thinkpads there is the hw volume that is controlled by
> > those magic keys, and then there is master, and then there is PCM. My
> > plan is to collapse them all into a single slider which is possible if
> > we have dB information about the sliders. The resulting slider would
> > be the multiplication of the seperate sliders. This would both
> > increase the range and the granularity of the overall volume slider
> > and also allows us to fix the mixer initialization issue a bit since
> > we would control both PCM and Master. 
> 
> That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. I've often had to play
> around with levels for PCM vs. Master vs. other things to maximise the
> resulting volume? without introducing distortion -- you're effectively
> downgrading my audio capabilities unless you _always_ get it absolutely
> right. On which topic, see above.
> 
> And then factor in the observation that we're talking about analogue
> circuitry and physical devices which will even vary a little from one
> machine to the next machine off the production line. Not to mention what
> my ears can detect. Your database _cannot_ know.

This has nothing to do with 'my' database.

If you ever had a look at alsamixer you'd have seen that it shows dB
values for most sliders. While for the 'outermost' sliders it is not
clear relative to what reference level those dB values are it is for
the more innerwards (i.e. usually digitally implemented) sliders:
0dB mens no amplification, no attenuation. 

As already explained the algorithm for initializing that series of
sliders is to go from outermost to innermost and doing the 'biggest'
part of the volume adjustment on the more outermust sliders and doing
adjustments on the more innerwards only if the outermost cannot do it
due to limitations in range or granularity. That should make sure that
the more innerwards sliders (the digital ones) are usually initialized
to 0dB and hence do not have any detrimental effect on audio quality.

Also, pavucontrol shows the 'base volume' in the UI, i.e. the point
were the all sliders are at 0dB.

I am pretty confident that the dB information is pretty reliable since
often it comes from the hw itself and Visa relies on it, too. Since
vendors test their stuff against Vista this makes them as reliable as
it could get.

If ALSA cannot provide us with the dB information for a specific card
this algorithm will of course not be used.

In summary: I am pretty sure your fears are unfounded.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 15:15:41 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:15:41 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <200904241624.35693.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<1240537132.3955.8.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904241624.35693.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240586141.3955.210.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 16:24 +0500, Suren Karapetyan wrote:

> The important part is not numbers.
> Much more important is what that bugs are about.
> Try to find bugs with keys "skipping" "choppy" "lag" "crackling".
> You'll find a few NEW bugs but you'll also find a lot of CLOSED bugs.
> This "about skipping" bugs are reported every few weeks.
> Soon they're closed. A week later they are reported again.
> Will it help if I reply to each of that bugs with "me too"?

Similar symptoms != identical bugs.

> The thing I don't like at all, is when you say PA has (big) problems
> and PA maintainers tell you that there are no problems and if you have
> one you should report it and it will be fixed (at once), 
> and if it isn't fixed then you're a minority and you are not important.

I haven't seen any PA developer say it has no bugs, or that all bugs
will be fixed immediately. That'd just be a silly thing for any
developer to say.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 15:15:59 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:15:59 -0700
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241018330.27791@localhost.localdomain>
References: <e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
	<1240521597.720.199.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424085314.GA21097@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241018330.27791@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240586159.3063.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 10:19 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote:
> 
> 
> Why not? I've built lots of 32 bit packages on 64bit machines using mock 
> and setarch.

He may be talking about whatever it is that keeps livecd-creator from
being ran inside mock chroots, which I think is getting fixed.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 15:18:06 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:18:06 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <20090424134358.GA30273@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org> 
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com> 
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<20090424134358.GA30273@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <e76492710904240818u6963e3by4b423e6a58fc8c34@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Lennart Poettering  wrote:
>
> Better still then using the card name is using the hal path or some
> udev path/identifier for identifying cards. PA does that.
>
> Lennart
>

Lennart,
please stop implying CA supporting features that it actually can't. CA
does not work with multiple soundcards. AT ALL... (tested it with 100%
different hardware, different machines)

It might be working on your system and possibly a handful of other
people's. But that's all.

Orcan



From john.brown009 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 15:18:34 2009
From: john.brown009 at gmail.com (TK009)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:18:34 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <7cdb25370904240818q15a1d84dlca4965b741d0bd77@mail.gmail.com>

This has been a very funny thread. Thank you to whoever started it, I needed
a laugh.

Lennart, your baby is ugly, your baby has always been ugly, its not likely
to get any better looking for a long time if ever. I like how you advise
people what they should and should not be doing with their hardware, clearly
only you what is best for us. I also like "just wait in F12 it will be
better guys I promise!" You are a funny guy, you should take that show on
the road.

I noticed FESco will be discussing just how well you know best later today.

How long do we remain your alpha testers until you get PA in a state worthy
of shipping with fedora? Let me guess F12 right? lol, you kill me.

We'd of all been better off if PA had never been created, our only hope now
is that it dies the quick death. To much to hope for I know but everyone has
to have a dream. For now we can just remove it and drive on.

@ all those saying file bug reports, I say why file reports against
something not worth the time or effort? Don't install it to begin with and
you'll be better off.


TK009
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From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 15:19:45 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:19:45 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240582455.24529.322.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com> 
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240582455.24529.322.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <e76492710904240819x2eea773em9eaeb361eff436da@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:14 AM, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 17:58 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> He doesn't need to imply anything. Curseaudio is unbroken only in your
>> system(s) and possibly in a countably many other people's.
>>
>> > Also, what's the point of listing closed bugs?
>> >
>>
>> They are not all closed. There are many OPEN's as well as WONTFIX' and
>> WORKSFORME's.
>>
>> Please do lift this curse from Fedora. It is bad. It is broken to a
>> great extent. I'm glad I got rid of it before it started damaging my
>> hardware.
>>
>> Pretty please!
>
> Orcan, I don't think this is very helpful.
>
> I think many people have had similar experiences -- I actually disabled
> PulseAudio completely in my own F-10 machines and especially my
> father's, because audio was just too unreliable.
>
> But Fedora is _supposed_ to be bleeding edge. It may have been a little
> _too_ bleeding edge in that case, but it's also a lot better in F-11
> than it used to be. A lot of work has gone into fixing the bugs, and
> personally I'm determined to stick with it in F-11.
>
> Amusingly, the first time I noticed PulseAudio actually 'doing its job'
> and mixing multiple streams was completely counterproductive -- it was
> when I was trying to give a presentation from OpenOffice, and because
> the video was playing on both screens, so did the audio... slightly out
> of sync with each other, giving me an echo :)
>
> But still, I'm determined to stick with it. And I don't think that
> attacking it on those grounds is particularly useful.
>
> The issue which we _should_ address is how regressions are handled when
> they're actually a _design_ issue in PulseAudio rather than simply a
> bug. It's very disturbing that regressions are being marked as WONTFIX,
> and I think we need to do better than that.
>

David,
Had CA worked for me in just one case out of so many, I wouldn't
complain so strongly. Recently it started damaging my wife's data on
her computer (just hard-reboot your computer as if it was frozen 5
times a day for a month. I'm confident that you'll lose some data at
some point). I'm glad I shut it off before it damaged the hardware.

It is harmful. It is 100% crap. OK, maybe 99.999%, since it works for you guys.

I am all for bleeding edge. But CA is so immature that it doesn't have
a circulatory system yet. Thus it cannot bleed.

Orcan



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 15:20:52 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:20:52 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240569253.5037.28.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>
	<e76492710904231900y1a739635ha546fde1e392a650@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240539453.3955.42.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240569253.5037.28.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240586452.3955.211.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 11:34 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 19:17 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> <snip>
> > Yeah, as I said, I had you confused with Callum (and Lennart and
> > Bastien...) who'd been swearing their way through the thread. Very sorry
> > for that, entirely my fault.
> 
> I didn't swear once. Remember, I'm passive-aggressive...

Hmm, you're right. That cuts my swearing candidates down to two. Maybe I
just love swearing so much I was sticking it into other people's posts
in my head ;)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 24 15:19:47 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:19:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240586159.3063.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <e76492710904211431p52404219s8c52d7f1bb40a994@mail.gmail.com>
	<13527.1240350651@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<e76492710904211514u20b6364bh851f493d7b282b09@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
	<1240521597.720.199.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424085314.GA21097@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241018330.27791@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240586159.3063.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241116160.27791@localhost.localdomain>



On Fri, 24 Apr 2009, Jesse Keating wrote:

> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 10:19 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote:
>>
>>
>> Why not? I've built lots of 32 bit packages on 64bit machines using mock
>> and setarch.
>
> He may be talking about whatever it is that keeps livecd-creator from
> being ran inside mock chroots, which I think is getting fixed.


Is that a mock issue or a livecd-creator issue?

-sv



From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Fri Apr 24 15:22:00 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:22:00 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241116160.27791@localhost.localdomain>
References: <e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
	<1240521597.720.199.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424085314.GA21097@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241018330.27791@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240586159.3063.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241116160.27791@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424152200.GA1363436@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Seth Vidal <skvidal at fedoraproject.org> said:
> On Fri, 24 Apr 2009, Jesse Keating wrote:
> >He may be talking about whatever it is that keeps livecd-creator from
> >being ran inside mock chroots, which I think is getting fixed.
> 
> Is that a mock issue or a livecd-creator issue?

Isn't it an SELinux issue?
-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 24 15:23:14 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:23:14 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904240818u6963e3by4b423e6a58fc8c34@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424134358.GA30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240818u6963e3by4b423e6a58fc8c34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090424152314.GA6717@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 11:18, Orcan Ogetbil (oget.fedora at gmail.com) wrote:

> 
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Lennart Poettering  wrote:
> >
> > Better still then using the card name is using the hal path or some
> > udev path/identifier for identifying cards. PA does that.
> >
> > Lennart
> >
> 
> Lennart,
> please stop implying CA supporting features that it actually can't. CA
> does not work with multiple soundcards. AT ALL... (tested it with 100%
> different hardware, different machines)
> 
> It might be working on your system and possibly a handful of other
> people's. But that's all.

What is CA?

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From rjones at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 15:24:25 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:24:25 +0100
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240586159.3063.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
	<1240521597.720.199.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424085314.GA21097@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241018330.27791@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240586159.3063.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424152425.GA22864@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 08:15:59AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 10:19 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote:
> > Why not? I've built lots of 32 bit packages on 64bit machines using mock 
> > and setarch.
> 
> He may be talking about whatever it is that keeps livecd-creator from
> being ran inside mock chroots, which I think is getting fixed.

I said it in my email further up: you can't nest mock builds, and it
requires extra steps by root to configure mock.

Practically this means that appliances can't be built in mock or Koji.

febootstrap fixes the above and allows appliances to be built inside
mock, because it doesn't need root, or setuid helper programs, or
bind-mounting, or anything else like that.  It runs yum using fakeroot
and fakechroot.  This wasn't possible previously, but I've pushed
upstream sufficient patches to make yum and %post scripts work in
fake{,ch}root environments.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines.  Tiny program with many
powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top



From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 15:25:21 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:25:21 -0700
Subject: New packages during rawhide freeze
In-Reply-To: <20090424123007.GB2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
References: <49F19330.6020605@smartlink.ee>
	<20090424123007.GB2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <1240586721.3063.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 08:30 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
> >Recent rawhide composes have pulled in some .fc10 rpms which seem to
> >originate from Fedora 10's stable updates repo. For example, "rawhide
> >report: 20090422 changes" lists 10 new packages, from which I checked
> >first few and they all seemed to be .fc10 releases.
> 
> This is due to koji tag inheritence.  It should arguably stop doing that
> during a freeze...

I tried something this freeze to make things a bit easier for us doing
tag requests, but I failed to consider the inheritance issue.  I'll be
fixing this shortly, but for those things that are getting inherited
now, we probably should tag them for F11.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jreznik at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 15:26:30 2009
From: jreznik at redhat.com (Jaroslav Reznik)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:26:30 +0200
Subject: kde-4.2.2 - kded4 eating cpu cycles
In-Reply-To: <200904241831.55775.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
References: <200904241831.55775.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904241726.31016.jreznik@redhat.com>

On Friday 24 April 2009 15:31:55 Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> Some strange issues here with kde-4.2.2 update.
> After the update is done and I restart the system and login
> kded4 is taking 100% on one of the CPUs.
> The problem is gone on the next restart
> and doesn't come back(at least yet).
> It has happened on both F10 systems I updated to 4.2.2 -
> on my home desktop and laptop.
> Does anyone know what can be the cause of this?

We know about it [1] but now we have no idea what's wrong...

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497314

Jaroslav
 
> Suren

-- 
Jaroslav ?ezn?k <jreznik at redhat.com>
Associate Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 731 455 332
Red Hat, Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com/



From rdieter at math.unl.edu  Fri Apr 24 15:26:00 2009
From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:26:00 -0500
Subject: kde-4.2.2 - kded4 eating cpu cycles
References: <200904241831.55775.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gsslm8$gkg$1@ger.gmane.org>

Suren Karapetyan wrote:

> Some strange issues here with kde-4.2.2 update.
> After the update is done and I restart the system and login
> kded4 is taking 100% on one of the CPUs.
> The problem is gone on the next restart
> and doesn't come back(at least yet).
> It has happened on both F10 systems I updated to 4.2.2 -
> on my home desktop and laptop.
> Does anyone know what can be the cause of this?

Tracking issue here:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497314

Indications so far are that it's temporary, and usually goes away on
subsequent logins.

-- Rex




From jkeating at j2solutions.net  Fri Apr 24 15:28:09 2009
From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:28:09 -0700
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <20090424152425.GA22864@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <1240371031.30902.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
	<1240521597.720.199.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424085314.GA21097@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241018330.27791@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240586159.3063.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424152425.GA22864@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <1240586889.3063.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 16:24 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> 
> I said it in my email further up: you can't nest mock builds, and it
> requires extra steps by root to configure mock.

Please define "nest mock builds"

> 
> Practically this means that appliances can't be built in mock or Koji.

Actually there is a pile of patches being created right now that would
allow live image creation within mock.  The user would call a koji
command, and pass either a kickstart file or an SCM url to a kickstart
file and you'll get a live image out the other end.

-- 
Jesse Keating RHCE      (http://jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project          (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key          (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)
identi.ca               (http://identi.ca/jkeating)
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 15:28:35 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:28:35 -0700
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904240818u6963e3by4b423e6a58fc8c34@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424134358.GA30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240818u6963e3by4b423e6a58fc8c34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240586915.3955.213.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 11:18 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Lennart Poettering  wrote:
> >
> > Better still then using the card name is using the hal path or some
> > udev path/identifier for identifying cards. PA does that.
> >
> > Lennart
> >
> 
> Lennart,
> please stop implying CA supporting features that it actually can't. CA
> does not work with multiple soundcards. AT ALL... (tested it with 100%
> different hardware, different machines)
> 
> It might be working on your system and possibly a handful of other
> people's. But that's all.

Oh, would you please just *shut up*.

I have four output devices in my system. Each is correctly identified
and I can move output across them at will. No, I am not being paid by
Lennart to say this, and I did not drink the Kool-Aid, I can just
recognize working software when I see it.

Anyone who was to claim Pulse was perfect and worked for everyone would
be wrong, but you claiming it works for no-one but Lennart and his
sinister sidekicks is equally absurd.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 24 15:32:41 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:32:41 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240586452.3955.211.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>
	<e76492710904231900y1a739635ha546fde1e392a650@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240539453.3955.42.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240569253.5037.28.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240586452.3955.211.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090424153241.GB6717@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 08:20, Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 11:34 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 19:17 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > Yeah, as I said, I had you confused with Callum (and Lennart and
> > > Bastien...) who'd been swearing their way through the thread. Very sorry
> > > for that, entirely my fault.
> > 
> > I didn't swear once. Remember, I'm passive-aggressive...
> 
> Hmm, you're right. That cuts my swearing candidates down to two. Maybe I
> just love swearing so much I was sticking it into other people's posts
> in my head ;)

Did I swear in this thread? Sure, I was sarcastic, but I didn't swear
unless I am starting to get forgetful.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 15:33:08 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:33:08 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <20090424152314.GA6717@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com> 
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<20090424134358.GA30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240818u6963e3by4b423e6a58fc8c34@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090424152314.GA6717@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <e76492710904240833m4a99b44av9eb9e42249f65dff@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 24.04.09 11:18, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Lennart Poettering ?wrote:
>> >
>> > Better still then using the card name is using the hal path or some
>> > udev path/identifier for identifying cards. PA does that.
>> >
>> > Lennart
>> >
>>
>> Lennart,
>> please stop implying CA supporting features that it actually can't. CA
>> does not work with multiple soundcards. AT ALL... (tested it with 100%
>> different hardware, different machines)
>>
>> It might be working on your system and possibly a handful of other
>> people's. But that's all.
>
> What is CA?
>

It is an evil *curse*. And Fedora is waiting for its hero to lift it.

Orcan



From rjones at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 15:34:37 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:34:37 +0100
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <1240586889.3063.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
	<1240521597.720.199.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424085314.GA21097@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241018330.27791@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240586159.3063.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424152425.GA22864@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<1240586889.3063.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424153437.GB22864@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 08:28:09AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 16:24 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> > 
> > I said it in my email further up: you can't nest mock builds, and it
> > requires extra steps by root to configure mock.
> 
> Please define "nest mock builds"

Run mock inside mock.

> > Practically this means that appliances can't be built in mock or Koji.
> 
> Actually there is a pile of patches being created right now that would
> allow live image creation within mock.  The user would call a koji
> command, and pass either a kickstart file or an SCM url to a kickstart
> file and you'll get a live image out the other end.

I talked to Bryan Kearney about this, and it's a bit different from
what I want.  I'm building very small, single-purpose virtual
machines, which get embedded in the final RPM output.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
New in Fedora 11: Fedora Windows cross-compiler. Compile Windows
programs, test, and build Windows installers. Over 70 libraries supprt'd
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MinGW http://www.annexia.org/fedora_mingw



From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Fri Apr 24 15:35:43 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:35:43 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <20090424152425.GA22864@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
	<1240521597.720.199.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424085314.GA21097@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241018330.27791@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240586159.3063.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424152425.GA22864@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <20090424153543.GB1363436@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Richard W.M. Jones <rjones at redhat.com> said:
> I said it in my email further up: you can't nest mock builds, and it
> requires extra steps by root to configure mock.

"usermod -a -G mock rjones" is not that much work for root.

Of course, you can further restrict it using sudo if you wish.
-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From giallu at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 15:40:05 2009
From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:40:05 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090424 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090424142114.120361F81FB@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090424142114.120361F81FB@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <d5ad21470904240840tc448bwb04361c18b5898a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Rawhide Report
<rawhide at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
>
> gcc-4.4.0-1
> -----------
> * Thu Apr 23 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 4.4.0-1
> - update from gcc-4_4-branch
> ?- GCC 4.4.0 release
> ?- PRs libstdc++/39802, c++/39639, c/39855, rtl-optimization/39762,
> ? ? ? ?testsuite/39781, tree-optimization/39824
> - fix up DSE (PR middle-end/39794)
> - debuginfo fixes for VLA and nested/contained functions (#459374)
> - improve -ftree-switch-conversion optimization if the constant is the
> ?same in all cases
>
> * Mon Apr 20 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 4.4.0-0.35
> - update from gcc-4_4-branch
> ?- PRs middle-end/39804, target/39678, target/39767, tree-optimization/39675,
> ? ? ? ?tree-optimization/39764
>
>

Out of curiosity, we made the mass rebuild with gcc 4.4 some time ago,
and I guess we are not going to do it again before the release.
Can anyone elaborate what the implications could be not rebuilding
everything with the released compiler?

TIA

G.

-- 
Gianluca Sforna

http://morefedora.blogspot.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 24 15:39:21 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:39:21 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904240833m4a99b44av9eb9e42249f65dff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424134358.GA30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240818u6963e3by4b423e6a58fc8c34@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090424152314.GA6717@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240833m4a99b44av9eb9e42249f65dff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090424153921.GC6717@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 11:33, Orcan Ogetbil (oget.fedora at gmail.com) wrote:

> >> It might be working on your system and possibly a handful of other
> >> people's. But that's all.
> >
> > What is CA?
> >
> 
> It is an evil *curse*. And Fedora is waiting for its hero to lift it.

Ah, got it. You are such a funny guy.

I mean, I have a pretty good idea of the bugs in bz that are posted
against PA. And I am not aware of any bug that would describe issues
with PA mishandling multiple sound card setups *ever*. So for a
change, what about actually referring to an actual bug report about
this.

Ok, this really enough. You, sir, are a lier, are clueless, poisonous
and spreading FUD. Please just go away, will you?

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 15:41:11 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:41:11 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090424153241.GB6717@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>
	<e76492710904231900y1a739635ha546fde1e392a650@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240539453.3955.42.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240569253.5037.28.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240586452.3955.211.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090424153241.GB6717@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240587671.3955.219.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 17:32 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:

> > > I didn't swear once. Remember, I'm passive-aggressive...
> > 
> > Hmm, you're right. That cuts my swearing candidates down to two. Maybe I
> > just love swearing so much I was sticking it into other people's posts
> > in my head ;)
> 
> Did I swear in this thread? Sure, I was sarcastic, but I didn't swear
> unless I am starting to get forgetful.

OK, since this is clearly the most important question ;), I went back
and checked. It's only Callum. I was misremembering based on his claim
that you and Bastien 'started it' - apparently he meant 'started it' in
the sense of 'disagreed with him'...

so everyone but Callum is pure as the driven snow and guilty only of a
hearty and robust exchange of ideas such as mailing lists were born
for :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From rjones at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 15:41:36 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:41:36 +0100
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <20090424153543.GB1363436@hiwaay.net>
References: <1240421267.18570.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<faa16b610904221136v32d7cd5bvd225b1831ac1985a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240426030.18570.170.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422194818.GD844100@hiwaay.net>
	<1240521597.720.199.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424085314.GA21097@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904241018330.27791@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240586159.3063.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424152425.GA22864@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<20090424153543.GB1363436@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <20090424154136.GC22864@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:35:43AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Richard W.M. Jones <rjones at redhat.com> said:
> > I said it in my email further up: you can't nest mock builds, and it
> > requires extra steps by root to configure mock.
> 
> "usermod -a -G mock rjones" is not that much work for root.
> 
> Of course, you can further restrict it using sudo if you wish.

And edit or create a mock config files for the new mock repo.

Most Unix programs can be built using:

  ./configure
  make

But a program that needs mock has a bunch of other configuration steps
that have to be carried out by root.  OK, maybe not such a problem for
manual builds.  But now if you want to move that into an auto-build
environment (test builds, Koji, etc), you've got a problem.

BTW don't take this as some criticism of mock.  It certainly isn't.
I'm _using_ mock all the time for auto-builds.  I want to build
appilances inside mock.  I'm using febootstrap inside mock.  It all
works great.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
Read my programming blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com
Fedora now supports 75 OCaml packages (the OPEN alternative to F#)
http://cocan.org/getting_started_with_ocaml_on_red_hat_and_fedora



From seg at haxxed.com  Fri Apr 24 15:54:25 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:54:25 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240587671.3955.219.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>
	<e76492710904231900y1a739635ha546fde1e392a650@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240539453.3955.42.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240569253.5037.28.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240586452.3955.211.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090424153241.GB6717@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240587671.3955.219.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240588465.17809.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 08:41 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 17:32 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> 
> > > > I didn't swear once. Remember, I'm passive-aggressive...
> > > 
> > > Hmm, you're right. That cuts my swearing candidates down to two. Maybe I
> > > just love swearing so much I was sticking it into other people's posts
> > > in my head ;)
> > 
> > Did I swear in this thread? Sure, I was sarcastic, but I didn't swear
> > unless I am starting to get forgetful.
> 
> OK, since this is clearly the most important question ;), I went back
> and checked. It's only Callum. I was misremembering based on his claim
> that you and Bastien 'started it' - apparently he meant 'started it' in
> the sense of 'disagreed with him'...
> 
> so everyone but Callum is pure as the driven snow and guilty only of a
> hearty and robust exchange of ideas such as mailing lists were born
> for :)

The swearing is an expression of my frustration. Apparently swearing
completely invalidates everything I have to say. Point taken.
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From pemboa at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 16:11:26 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:11:26 -0500
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <49F1863D.3090200@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<8278b1b0904230129w496c3b1fmd98da2278301abc6@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904231158s712e50ednd789421e12b175d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2718.1240514575@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<16de708d0904231348j68c08d20xf55f6df0cdcba1e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8278b1b0904231354i19c125edq448ed10c3b78e9af@mail.gmail.com>
	<4637.1240521032@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<16de708d0904231429o69b8a5bdiae5732651332ebd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090424063901.GA17622@orient.maison.lan>
	<49F1863D.3090200@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904240911x371167d6ua8b0bbcd7cc42401@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:28 AM, Manuel Wolfshant
<wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro> wrote:
> On 04/24/2009 09:39 AM, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
>>
>> * Arthur Pemberton [24/04/2009 00:59] :
>>
>>>
>>> $ ping -c 50 -i 5 -q -s 512 bugzilla.redhat.com
>>>
>>
>> Please use Firefox's Yslow extension if you want to give us
>> meaningful data.
>>
>
> from my home connection Yslow says 7-15 secs. ?For instance in the case of
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=189949 , yslow prints C 274.3K
> 11.881s
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489135 , yslow prints 7.138 s
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/request.cgi?requester=wolfy%40nobugconsulting.ro&requestee=wolfy%40nobugconsulting.ro&do_union=1&group=type&action=queue
> I get B 242.8K 6.56s
> http://tinyurl.com/dl8mmt 6.688 s
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ 4.503s
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers 4.111s
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers 2.08s
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/PackageStatus 8.733 s


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=189949 , yslow prints 3.535
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489135 , yslow prints 3.552
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/request.cgi?requester=wolfy%40nobugconsulting.ro&requestee=wolfy%40nobugconsulting.ro&do_union=1&group=type&action=queue
I get 4.311
http://tinyurl.com/dl8mmt 6.688 s

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ 1.729
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers 5.337
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers 0.896
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/PackageStatus 2.858


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From opensource at till.name  Fri Apr 24 16:19:45 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:19:45 +0200
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <20090424153543.GB1363436@hiwaay.net>
References: <e76492710904220840vf5bec29y5b49e9685a472df9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090424152425.GA22864@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<20090424153543.GB1363436@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <200904241819.52901.opensource@till.name>

On Fr April 24 2009, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Richard W.M. Jones <rjones at redhat.com> said:
> > I said it in my email further up: you can't nest mock builds, and it
> > requires extra steps by root to configure mock.
>
> "usermod -a -G mock rjones" is not that much work for root.
>
> Of course, you can further restrict it using sudo if you wish.

Is it not possible anymore to become root using mock?

Regards,
Till
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From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 16:26:18 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:26:18 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <20090424153921.GC6717@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<20090424134358.GA30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240818u6963e3by4b423e6a58fc8c34@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090424152314.GA6717@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240833m4a99b44av9eb9e42249f65dff@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090424153921.GC6717@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <e76492710904240926l7750b31fk62ee8df308ef3ca4@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Lennart Poettering  wrote:
> On Fri, 24.04.09 11:33, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>
>> >> It might be working on your system and possibly a handful of other
>> >> people's. But that's all.
>> >
>> > What is CA?
>> >
>>
>> It is an evil *curse*. And Fedora is waiting for its hero to lift it.
>
> Ah, got it. You are such a funny guy.
>
> I mean, I have a pretty good idea of the bugs in bz that are posted
> against PA. And I am not aware of any bug that would describe issues
> with PA mishandling multiple sound card setups *ever*. So for a
> change, what about actually referring to an actual bug report about
> this.
>
> Ok, this really enough. You, sir, are a lier, are clueless, poisonous
> and spreading FUD. Please just go away, will you?
>

Okay, I think I delivered all my points. I'm going not going to say
more for now.

But, please recognize that your confusion of facts with FUDs ruins the
Linux experience of many people, including those who want to "switch"
to Linux. It is really not nice to switch to a system where your
computer freezes 5 times a day. It causes bad reputation not only for
Fedora, but also for Linux and free software.

I'm returning the "lier, clueless and poisonous" accusations, and I
stand behind everything I said, which are nothing but facts, including
(but not limited to) CA is 99.99% crap; it freezes systems; it does
not properly support multiple soundcards; and it must be wiped off of
our planet for the good of humanity.

Best,
Orcan



From bruno at wolff.to  Fri Apr 24 16:29:13 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:29:13 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240539453.3955.42.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240537406.3955.12.camel@adam.local.net>
	<e76492710904231900y1a739635ha546fde1e392a650@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240539453.3955.42.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090424162913.GA11272@wolff.to>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 19:17:33 -0700,
  Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> 
> sound is/was handled. I get as frustrated as Lennart does by people
> whose first response to *any* kind of sound issue on *anyone's* system
> is "oh, you need to remove Pulseaudio" - that kind of thing just isn't
> helping anywhere. A lot of the anti-Pulse sentiment is multiplied by

This so reminds me of selinux. The same thing happens with it (except with
access issues instead of sound issues).



From dimi at lattica.com  Fri Apr 24 16:29:25 2009
From: dimi at lattica.com (Dimi Paun)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:29:25 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 16:45 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Yes. I am aware of that. That's one of the reasons there is alsamixer
> shipped with our distro.

But Lennart, this is not an option for the general Joe. I've used Linux
exclusively for more than 13 years, and I wasn't even aware of this
alsamixer until recently when _you_ mentioned it to me. 

For most people, if it's not easily accessible from a convenient UI
(the Volume Control in this case), it _does_not_exist_. And it should
be this way.

For crying out loud, how would someone know to open up a terminal
and run this obscure problem? How would they know about it?

In F8 at least I could control all that from the Volume Control, as
crappy as that was. As soon as I upgraded to F11, I was lost! I had
to file a bug report https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493790
just to find out about alsamixer! (BTW, this was the problem Dave was
mentioning: the DB was missing entries, and for a very standard piece of
HW, and the user was toast)

I know you mean well by trying to simplify this entire mess (I hated the
old Volume Control, it was too much), but on the other hand this seems
to be a messy problem and taking too much control from the user is a
mistake. At least that's what my intuition is telling me, FWIW.

-- 
Dimi Paun <dimi at lattica.com>
Lattica, Inc.



From belegdol at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 16:30:10 2009
From: belegdol at gmail.com (Julian Sikorski)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:30:10 +0200
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <1240526597.13325.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>	<20090423210733.GC29486@tango.0pointer.de>	<1240522107.13325.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<20090423215030.GG29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240526597.13325.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gsspei$u92$1@ger.gmane.org>

Christoph Wickert pisze:
> Am Donnerstag, den 23.04.2009, 23:50 +0200 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
>> On Thu, 23.04.09 23:28, Christoph Wickert (christoph.wickert at googlemail.com) wrote:
>>> I think we both agree that whatever uses OSS, PA should not eat all the
>>> CPU, right?
>> I am sorry. I don't follow. What does OSS have to do with this? 
> 
> PA offers an OSS comparability layer. When used, PA eats up all my CPU
> and causes an enormous delay.
> 
>> Lennart
> 
> Regards,
> Christoph
> 
> 
skype has been working for me with alsa pa plugin for a good while here.

Julian



From nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU  Fri Apr 24 16:44:05 2009
From: nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Fernando Lopez-Lezcano)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:44:05 -0700
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <1240548463.3955.199.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240548463.3955.199.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240591445.23593.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 21:47 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 20:22 -0700, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
> 
> > The only fix AFAIK is to add a modprobe.conf that defines the order of
> > the cards. Easy, right? (in ancient, less civilized times, the order
> > would always be the same, and if you did not like it there would be an
> > small app that would let you configure it - that's progress :-)
> 
> I don't recall that ever being the case. The order has *always* been
> unpredictable unless you had a modprobe.conf. I definitely remember
> experiencing this several years ago.

I never had any problems with this till _something_ changed fairly
recently in Fedora. Maybe it was the actual disappearance of Fedora
sound card configuration from the modprobe.conf landscape. And the
matching disappearance act of the sound configuration utility. 

Anyway, my experience in many many machines over many many years has
been no problems ever before, and then the impossibility of predicting
which soundcard will be hw:0 and no way of fixing it, save for manually
creating a system configuration file as root. 

I have to document this workaround in my Planet CCRMA installation pages
to make the overall system usable. It is interesting to observe how,
over the years, Fedora gets closer and closer to a usable out of the box
sound experience for Planet CCRMA users and then, suddenly, we are all
back to editing system files as root to make it usable again. 

-- Fernando




From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 24 16:58:17 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:58:17 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
References: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
Message-ID: <20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 12:29, Dimi Paun (dimi at lattica.com) wrote:

> For crying out loud, how would someone know to open up a terminal
> and run this obscure problem? How would they know about it?

By reading the release notes?

> I know you mean well by trying to simplify this entire mess (I hated the
> old Volume Control, it was too much), but on the other hand this seems
> to be a messy problem and taking too much control from the user is a
> mistake. At least that's what my intuition is telling me, FWIW.

If we don' try to fix it then this will never be fixed.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 24 17:00:50 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:00:50 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <1240591445.23593.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240548463.3955.199.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240591445.23593.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424170050.GA16380@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 09:44, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano (nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU) wrote:

> I have to document this workaround in my Planet CCRMA installation pages
> to make the overall system usable. It is interesting to observe how,
> over the years, Fedora gets closer and closer to a usable out of the box
> sound experience for Planet CCRMA users and then, suddenly, we are all
> back to editing system files as root to make it usable again. 

Please update those documents and teach folks to use the 
card names instead of the card index.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From dmalcolm at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 17:03:41 2009
From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:03:41 -0400
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904240926l7750b31fk62ee8df308ef3ca4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424134358.GA30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240818u6963e3by4b423e6a58fc8c34@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090424152314.GA6717@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240833m4a99b44av9eb9e42249f65dff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090424153921.GC6717@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240926l7750b31fk62ee8df308ef3ca4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240592621.14933.274.camel@radiator.bos.redhat.com>


On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 12:26 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Lennart Poettering  wrote:
> > On Fri, 24.04.09 11:33, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> >
> >> >> It might be working on your system and possibly a handful of other
> >> >> people's. But that's all.
> >> >
> >> > What is CA?
> >> >
> >>
> >> It is an evil *curse*. And Fedora is waiting for its hero to lift it.
> >
> > Ah, got it. You are such a funny guy.
> >
> > I mean, I have a pretty good idea of the bugs in bz that are posted
> > against PA. And I am not aware of any bug that would describe issues
> > with PA mishandling multiple sound card setups *ever*. So for a
> > change, what about actually referring to an actual bug report about
> > this.
> >
> > Ok, this really enough. You, sir, are a lier, are clueless, poisonous
> > and spreading FUD. Please just go away, will you?
> >
> 
> Okay, I think I delivered all my points. I'm going not going to say
> more for now.
> 
> But, please recognize that your confusion of facts with FUDs ruins the
> Linux experience of many people, including those who want to "switch"
> to Linux. It is really not nice to switch to a system where your
> computer freezes 5 times a day. It causes bad reputation not only for
Which bug # in bugzilla tracks this "freezing 5 times a day" that you
encountered?

> Fedora, but also for Linux and free software.

> I'm returning the "lier, clueless and poisonous" accusations, and I
> stand behind everything I said, which are nothing but facts, including
> (but not limited to) CA is 99.99% crap; it freezes systems; it does
Which bug # in bugzilla tracks the "freezing systems" that you
encountered?

> not properly support multiple soundcards; and it must be wiped off of
Which bug # in bugzilla tracks the issue(s) you encountered with
multiple soundcards?

> our planet for the good of humanity.





From dimi at lattica.com  Fri Apr 24 17:07:12 2009
From: dimi at lattica.com (Dimi Paun)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:07:12 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240592832.8696.1510.camel@dimi.lattica.com>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 18:58 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > For crying out loud, how would someone know to open up a terminal
> > and run this obscure problem? How would they know about it?
> 
> By reading the release notes?

Oh, please. Do you think that most people even _know_ what PA is
or what it does? Who has the time or interest to read tons of
release notes, and _remember_ this obscure alsamixer thing? 

Most folks expect to be able to get sound out of their box without
reading *anything* -- just by clicking on things that should be pretty
obvious withing 5-10s of looking at the computer. 

And that's the way it should be.

-- 
Dimi Paun <dimi at lattica.com>
Lattica, Inc.



From dimi at lattica.com  Fri Apr 24 17:12:25 2009
From: dimi at lattica.com (Dimi Paun)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:12:25 -0400
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <49F0D901.2000003@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<49F0D901.2000003@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1240593145.8696.1519.camel@dimi.lattica.com>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 02:39 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 04/24/2009 02:27 AM, Dimi Paun wrote:
> > 
> > But I just spent 15+ minutes trying to get Skype to work, and let
> > me tell you it's been brutal. Is there any chance of getting Skype
> > to work reliably? Or flash?
> 
> Works fine here.

For how long? As I said, it works for me too at first, just to
mysteriously stop working in 20-30h. That's not reliable in my books :)

> > (Just so it's clear: I'm sticking with PA because I want it to succeed.
> > Please consider this constructive feedback.)
> 
> Would that include a bug report?

But of course, how else?!?
    https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497550

-- 
Dimi Paun <dimi at lattica.com>
Lattica, Inc.



From dimi at lattica.com  Fri Apr 24 17:18:40 2009
From: dimi at lattica.com (Dimi Paun)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:18:40 -0400
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240593520.8696.1531.camel@dimi.lattica.com>

On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 15:44 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> > you are missing the point. If PA crashes, it should restart
> > automagically and reconnet.
> 
> Um, it does precisely that here for me.  Pleasantly surprised I was,
> but there ya go.  

That's not what I see here (with the very latest from Rawhide):

[dimi at dimi ~]$ ps aux | grep pulseaudio
dimi     11022  5.8  0.1 132916  5656 ?        S<sl 13:17   0:00 pulseaudio -D
dimi     11064  0.0  0.0   4200   696 pts/0    R+   13:17   0:00 grep pulseaudio
[dimi at dimi ~]$ kill -SIGSEGV 11022
[dimi at dimi ~]$ ps aux | grep pulseaudio
dimi     11083  0.0  0.0    312    80 pts/0    R+   13:17   0:00 grep pulseaudio
[dimi at dimi ~]$ sleep 10
[dimi at dimi ~]$ ps aux | grep pulseaudio
dimi     11088  0.0  0.0   4200   720 pts/0    S+   13:17   0:00 grep pulseaudio


-- 
Dimi Paun <dimi at lattica.com>
Lattica, Inc.



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Fri Apr 24 17:23:44 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:23:44 +0200
Subject: just lost my pipe
Message-ID: <1240593824.2536.8.camel@choeger6>

Hi, 

as you might know, on german keyboards, the | symbol is created by
pressing AltGr and the key right to the shift key. 
In my last session on my f11 thinkpad (r61) I just lost that symbol.

AltGr - <ANYOTHERKEY> worked, so did < and > on that key. Only | was
gone. Reboot fixed that.

Any idea what subsytem (kernel, X) to blame for that? Any idea what I
can do to dig deeper into this?

regards

christoph
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From nikolay at vladimiroff.com  Fri Apr 24 17:30:20 2009
From: nikolay at vladimiroff.com (Nikolay Vladimirov)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:30:20 +0300
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240592832.8696.1510.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
References: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240592832.8696.1510.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
Message-ID: <a2e85ed0904241030r4cf00a75s40670db156416a87@mail.gmail.com>

Some OffTopic comment.
A while ago I bought a brand new notebook and the audio hardware
wasn't supported( actually I had to give the correct model= option).
So it took me about 10 minutes to get a pulseaudio server on my
roommate's windows machine and even that my machine couldn't play
audio I had very easy solution if I wanted to listen to some music.
Later on I had working audio but my roommate had some nice 5.1 system
so I also used that without having to plug-unplug the audio from one
machine to another all the time .

So since fedora9 until latest rawhide pulseaudio worked flawlessly for me.
I think it's good to know that there are happy users out there and I
know a lot who are.

-- 
NV



From cdahlin at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 17:47:30 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:47:30 -0400
Subject: just lost my pipe
In-Reply-To: <1240593824.2536.8.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240593824.2536.8.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <49F1FB32.7020909@redhat.com>

Christoph H?ger wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> as you might know, on german keyboards, the | symbol is created by
> pressing AltGr and the key right to the shift key. 
> In my last session on my f11 thinkpad (r61) I just lost that symbol.
> 
> AltGr - <ANYOTHERKEY> worked, so did < and > on that key. Only | was
> gone. Reboot fixed that.
> 
> Any idea what subsytem (kernel, X) to blame for that? Any idea what I
> can do to dig deeper into this?
> 
> regards
> 
> christoph
> 

reproducing it would be of help.

Once you do, pulling the X log should probably be your first move. I doubt its the kernel, but dmesg wouldn't be a bad idea either.

There's also ibus, but I'm not qualified to speak on that.

--CJD



From cassmodiah at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 24 17:54:03 2009
From: cassmodiah at fedoraproject.org (Simon Wesp)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:54:03 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090424 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090424142114.120361F81FB@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
References: <20090424142114.120361F81FB@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090424195403.3e959e90@fedoraproject.org>

rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report) wrotes:

> Broken deps for i386
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5

> Broken deps for x86_64
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5


> Broken deps for ppc
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5

> Broken deps for ppc64
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5


nssbackup is my package. I don't understand the problem.
It's rawhide, with fc10 and requires python 2.5?
It should be fc12 and requires python 2.6.
I builded it in local mock and koji with f11 and f12 and it works, so
what is the problem?

-- 
Mit freundlichen Gr??en aus dem sch?nen Hainzell
Simon Wesp

The G in GNU stands for GNU
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SimonWesp
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From muepsj at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 17:55:55 2009
From: muepsj at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Joonas_Saraj=C3=A4rvi?=)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:55:55 +0300
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <a2e85ed0904241030r4cf00a75s40670db156416a87@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240592832.8696.1510.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<a2e85ed0904241030r4cf00a75s40670db156416a87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66ec675b0904241055g46fc623ct9330ab456c6ac760@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/24 Nikolay Vladimirov <nikolay at vladimiroff.com>:
> Some OffTopic comment.
> A while ago I bought a brand new notebook and the audio hardware
> wasn't supported( actually I had to give the correct model= option).
> So it took me about 10 minutes to get a pulseaudio server on my
> roommate's windows machine and even that my machine couldn't play
> audio I had very easy solution if I wanted to listen to some music.
> Later on I had working audio but my roommate had some nice 5.1 system
> so I also used that without having to plug-unplug the audio from one
> machine to another all the time .
>
> So since fedora9 until latest rawhide pulseaudio worked flawlessly for me.
> I think it's good to know that there are happy users out there and I
> know a lot who are.
>

I'd also like to add similar experiences about Pulseaudio.

Things I like about Pulseaudio:

When visiting my parents, I was very happy with Pulseaudio in my
Laptop being able to play music over the wlan to a desktop computer
that was running Fedora and Pulseaudio. It was easy to set up, and
worked quite reliably.

I can play sounds from multiple programs simultaneously.

I can adjust every program's volume independently of the others.

I can use pavucontrol to see if a silence is the result of a program
not talking to PA correctly, or if it has something to do with volumes
being too low or speakers off, etc.

Even Wine seems to talk nicely to Pulse nowadays.

I can plug in a USB headset, it works out of the box, and I can
immediately move the output of appropriate programs to them.

I can unplug the USB headset, with their streams being automatically
redirected to another output, if one is available.

Contrary to the experiences of some people on this list, Pulseaudio
seems to be quite compatible with different hardware and sound
drivers. My laptop and desktop currently have it running flawlessly,
with no manual configuration required. The desktop at my parents'
place has it working good, as far as I can tell with the little use
that I have done there. My girlfriend hasn't complained about it on
her laptop either, though she doesn't use the audio features very
much.

Pulseaudio is very nice in an LTSP setup.


Things that I don't like about Pulseaudio:

I had some problems with sound stuttering in early F10, in the new
glitch-free Pulseaudio. However, these got eventually fixed a couple
of months ago.

Some pieces of software seem harder to get behave well with
Pulseaudio. Hard ones have been some games in Wine, Ekiga (fixed now),
Audacity (I hear it's nowadays better) and some native Linux games
(None that I play currently have issues, though).


On the whole, I am anyway very pleased with Pulseaudio, and I look
forward to the remaining issues eventually getting resolved, so that
as many as possible can enjoy the good features that it offers.

-- 
Joonas Saraj?rvi
muepsj at gmail.com



From nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU  Fri Apr 24 17:59:57 2009
From: nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Fernando Lopez-Lezcano)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:59:57 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240469851.14173.767.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240469851.14173.767.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240595997.23593.131.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 23:57 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 11:50 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> 
> > Thank $deity. Very few people really want to fiddle with that many
> > controls. That UI is clearly not a sane one.
> 
> Of course they don't, but given the choice between "have to suffer
> through poking all those controls in order to get audible sound / record
> from an external device" and "not be able to get audible sound or record
> from an external device", I think most people would prefer the former.
> No-one's saying the previous situation is perfect, the point is that the
> new system is missing functionality that is blatantly needed, which will
> be experienced (and is *already* being experienced) by many many users
> as a severe regression.
> 
> I don't think anyone wants to lose the new volume control, or even for
> it not to be the default. All I'm asking for is for *some* old-skool GUI
> mixer to be installed alongside it by default so those who need to poke
> those controls will be able to find a reasonably usable app to do it
> with.

Yes, please. It is necessary to have a gui alternative for the cases
where the new, better, shinier thingy does not work. 

The thread seems to be looping:

start:
a: please keep the old gui mixer as an alternative
b: just use alsamixer
a: but the gui mixer was working, why do I have to use alsamixer?
b: no it was not working (insert image of mixer with 23567 controls)
a: but it is working, I start it and it shows the controls and it works
b: no it does not (another image of a case which is complicated)
a: but I need it, why do I have to use alsamixer now?
b: you are mis-using things
loop:
a: no I'm not
b: yes you are
goto loop: for a while
[degenerates into name calling and four letter words]
goto start:

It's all about layers of support. Adding a new, simpler layer of support
does not mean you have to drop older, still functional layers, that take
care of corner cases you state you are never going to support. 

-- Fernando




From nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU  Fri Apr 24 18:02:21 2009
From: nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Fernando Lopez-Lezcano)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:02:21 -0700
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <20090424170050.GA16380@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net> <gru00l$iqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240548463.3955.199.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240591445.23593.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424170050.GA16380@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240596141.23593.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 19:00 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 24.04.09 09:44, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano (nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> 
> > I have to document this workaround in my Planet CCRMA installation pages
> > to make the overall system usable. It is interesting to observe how,
> > over the years, Fedora gets closer and closer to a usable out of the box
> > sound experience for Planet CCRMA users and then, suddenly, we are all
> > back to editing system files as root to make it usable again. 
> 
> Please update those documents and teach folks to use the 
> card names instead of the card index.

What would be the name that corresponds to hw:x, and how do I find it?
-- Fernando




From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 18:03:26 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:03:26 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive) proposal
Message-ID: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>

So, in the spirit of light rather than heat, here's my proposal, again,
rescued from the depths of the flamefest, with some actual work
attached.

g-v-c is clearly intending to be an abstracted and simplified volume
control app / applet to cover the most common use cases in a friendly
way. Great.

It's clear, though, that some users have needs beyond this, which are
likely only going to be satisfied in a sensible way by access direct to
the ALSA mixer elements. Bastien and Lennart don't want some kind of
hack to expose these via g-v-c, and I'd tend to agree, that's clearly
not what it's designed for.

So my proposal is that we include by default an alternative GUI app
which allows direct access to the mixer channels. This won't be an
applet or anything else persistent, just an application that you can
choose to run if you need that level of access. Basically the same as
Lennart's "just use alsamixer" suggestion, only a GUI app that will be
more discoverable and easier for most people to use (it's a bit tricky
to figure out 'alsamixer -c0 -Vcapture', for instance).

At first I suggested including the XFCE mixer for this purpose, but now
that feels a bit awkward. It's really part of XFCE, its menu entry is
just named 'Mixer' and renaming it to something appropriate for GNOME
might not be appropriate for XFCE. And it has a slightly odd interface
rather than the 'immediate screenful o' sliders' that people are used to
from the old g-v-c.

So I suggest what we should do is resurrect gnome-alsamixer. It's still
technically part of GNOME - it's even got moved to the new GNOME git.
Other distributions still package it (Debian, for e.g.) It's even had a
few commits within the last year or so. It was more or less deprecated
in favour of g-v-c, but now we have a case where it may make sense to
have two clearly differentiated apps, and gnome-alsamixer is the obvious
choice.

I just pulled the latest code out of git and threw together a package
(based on the spec from Mandriva, since I had it lying around). It
builds and works fine - you get the kind of interface most people will
be expected, a tabbed window with each of your available output devices
on a tab, and the typical 'bunch o' sliders' layout for each device. In
the package I've added a menu entry with the name "Advanced Volume
Control" and the comment "Full hardware access volume control
application".

The package is available here:
http://adamwill.fedorapeople.org/gnome-alsamixer/ (the SRPM, spec file,
and an x86-64 build for current Rawhide). Please take a look at it if
you're interested.

Just to reinforce this, gnome-alsamixer shouldn't interfere with Pulse
or g-v-c at all; it doesn't run persistently, it doesn't mess anything
up in gconf or anywhere else that would affect those. All it does is let
you poke the raw mixer elements, just like alsamixer only graphically.

I know the GNOME folks are generally opposed to having two apps that do
'the same thing', but it's very clear from the long threads on this list
and elsewhere that g-v-c really doesn't do the things that many people
need it to do as of yet. If we ship with just g-v-c as a graphical
'mixer' available by default we will wind up telling many many people to
drop to a console and use alsamixer - and annoying a lot more people who
don't ask, find the release notes, or figure out how to use alsamixer on
their own. I really don't see how providing an alternative graphical
mixer app is worse than that.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From mike at cchtml.com  Fri Apr 24 18:19:40 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:19:40 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49F202BC.5090206@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive) proposal
From: Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
Date: 04/24/2009 01:03 PM

> So, in the spirit of light rather than heat, here's my proposal, again,
> rescued from the depths of the flamefest, with some actual work
> attached.
> 
> g-v-c is clearly intending to be an abstracted and simplified volume
> control app / applet to cover the most common use cases in a friendly
> way. Great.
> 
> It's clear, though, that some users have needs beyond this, which are
> likely only going to be satisfied in a sensible way by access direct to
> the ALSA mixer elements. Bastien and Lennart don't want some kind of
> hack to expose these via g-v-c, and I'd tend to agree, that's clearly
> not what it's designed for.
> 
> So my proposal is that we include by default an alternative GUI app
> which allows direct access to the mixer channels.

Forget about a second app. I'm doing that now in F10. pavucontrol and 
g-v-c. I don't want to keep having to use two. This is 2009. We have 
quad-core 64-bit computers with 16 gigs of RAM and 2 terrabyte hard 
drives. Lets put our computers to use instead of being lazy.

I understand we want to make Linux for the Desktop easy to use and all, 
but why force simple GUI elements on everyone?

Is it too much to ask for a "advanced" checkbox that toggles the display 
of extra widgets? You can bury this away in a Preferences menu, or heck, 
even hidden only in gconf.

Making things easier to use is great -- but restricting UIs to only have 
an "easy mode" 100% of the time isn't for everyone. Saying "no" to calls 
for change to the UI isn't helpful either. If g-v-c, or on a bigger 
scope, Gnome, was being developed by a business the developers would 
have been fired long ago for their arrogant ways.



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 24 18:19:04 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:19:04 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <1240596141.23593.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240548463.3955.199.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240591445.23593.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424170050.GA16380@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240596141.23593.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424181904.GB23457@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 11:02, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano (nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU) wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 19:00 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > On Fri, 24.04.09 09:44, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano (nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> > 
> > > I have to document this workaround in my Planet CCRMA installation pages
> > > to make the overall system usable. It is interesting to observe how,
> > > over the years, Fedora gets closer and closer to a usable out of the box
> > > sound experience for Planet CCRMA users and then, suddenly, we are all
> > > back to editing system files as root to make it usable again. 
> > 
> > Please update those documents and teach folks to use the 
> > card names instead of the card index.
> 
> What would be the name that corresponds to hw:x, and how do I find it?

Please read my responses to your emails. That's why I write them.

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg01950.html

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From bnocera at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 18:23:22 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:23:22 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240597402.5037.521.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 11:03 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> So, in the spirit of light rather than heat, here's my proposal, again,
> rescued from the depths of the flamefest, with some actual work
> attached.
> 
<snip>
> So my proposal is that we include by default an alternative GUI app
> which allows direct access to the mixer channels.

I don't agree with including it by default. Document it in the release
notes (or rather, update the notes, they already have some notes about
that). We _want_ to know what use cases we missed, and which ones are
worth supporting in gnome-volume-control.

<snip>
> I just pulled the latest code out of git and threw together a package
> (based on the spec from Mandriva, since I had it lying around).

You could base it on the gnome-media spec file from F10 as well.

Cheers



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 18:39:10 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:39:10 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240597402.5037.521.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240597402.5037.521.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240598350.3955.252.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 19:23 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:

> I don't agree with including it by default. Document it in the release
> notes (or rather, update the notes, they already have some notes about
> that). We _want_ to know what use cases we missed, and which ones are
> worth supporting in gnome-volume-control.

As far as I'm concerned the major ones are known: the biggie is input
switching, after that it's just bugs where Pulse's slider does not
properly control the volume because of some idiosyncracy of the
card/driver. Lennart has said input switching in particular will be
implemented only for F12. Honestly, I totally expect that by f12, g-v-c
will be good enough to be the only GUI 'mixer' installed by default. I'm
proposing this as a stopgap for a single release.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Fri Apr 24 18:12:25 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:12:25 +0200
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <1240593520.8696.1531.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240593520.8696.1531.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
Message-ID: <20090424181225.GA23457@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 13:18, Dimi Paun (dimi at lattica.com) wrote:

> 
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 15:44 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> > > you are missing the point. If PA crashes, it should restart
> > > automagically and reconnet.
> > 
> > Um, it does precisely that here for me.  Pleasantly surprised I was,
> > but there ya go.  
> 
> That's not what I see here (with the very latest from Rawhide):
> 
> [dimi at dimi ~]$ ps aux | grep pulseaudio
> dimi     11022  5.8  0.1 132916  5656 ?        S<sl 13:17   0:00 pulseaudio -D
> dimi     11064  0.0  0.0   4200   696 pts/0    R+   13:17   0:00 grep pulseaudio
> [dimi at dimi ~]$ kill -SIGSEGV 11022
> [dimi at dimi ~]$ ps aux | grep pulseaudio
> dimi     11083  0.0  0.0    312    80 pts/0    R+   13:17   0:00 grep pulseaudio
> [dimi at dimi ~]$ sleep 10
> [dimi at dimi ~]$ ps aux | grep pulseaudio
> dimi     11088  0.0  0.0   4200   720 pts/0    S+   13:17   0:00 grep pulseaudio

It is autospawned when it isn't running.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From jkeating at j2solutions.net  Fri Apr 24 18:50:32 2009
From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:50:32 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 11:03 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> So I suggest what we should do is resurrect gnome-alsamixer. It's still
> technically part of GNOME - it's even got moved to the new GNOME git.
> Other distributions still package it (Debian, for e.g.) It's even had a
> few commits within the last year or so. It was more or less deprecated
> in favour of g-v-c, but now we have a case where it may make sense to
> have two clearly differentiated apps, and gnome-alsamixer is the obvious
> choice.
> 
> I just pulled the latest code out of git and threw together a package
> (based on the spec from Mandriva, since I had it lying around). It
> builds and works fine - you get the kind of interface most people will
> be expected, a tabbed window with each of your available output devices
> on a tab, and the typical 'bunch o' sliders' layout for each device. In
> the package I've added a menu entry with the name "Advanced Volume
> Control" and the comment "Full hardware access volume control
> application".

It would be good to have some text on this app that instructs people to
file bugs if they have to resort to it.  That way we can capture the use
cases that the default mixer is missing and help the developers better
target things.

-- 
Jesse Keating RHCE      (http://jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project          (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key          (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)
identi.ca               (http://identi.ca/jkeating)
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From bnocera at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 19:00:27 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:00:27 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240598350.3955.252.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240597402.5037.521.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240598350.3955.252.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240599627.5037.562.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 11:39 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 19:23 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> 
> > I don't agree with including it by default. Document it in the release
> > notes (or rather, update the notes, they already have some notes about
> > that). We _want_ to know what use cases we missed, and which ones are
> > worth supporting in gnome-volume-control.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned the major ones are known: the biggie is input
> switching, after that it's just bugs where Pulse's slider does not
> properly control the volume because of some idiosyncracy of the
> card/driver. Lennart has said input switching in particular will be
> implemented only for F12.

I know, it's a UI problem and I'm supposed to be fixing that. We already
knew the feature wouldn't make it for F11 when we realised it was needed
to fix a specific use-case.

>  Honestly, I totally expect that by f12, g-v-c
> will be good enough to be the only GUI 'mixer' installed by default. I'm
> proposing this as a stopgap for a single release.

Except that it'll still be installed for upgrades. So it should be a
conscious decision of the administrator of the machine/user to install
it. If we were to obsolete it with gnome-volume-control, we'd get yelled
out, and for a reason.

So I still don't want to see it installed by default.



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 19:22:04 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:22:04 -0400
Subject: about compiler flags
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904220956u76ba078dm543181163e883b5e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e76492710904220956u76ba078dm543181163e883b5e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e76492710904241222g744fab56t145d485b5eeba862@mail.gmail.com>

I sent this email to fedora-packaging a couple days ago. I thought I
CC'd the devel list but apparently I didn't.

It consists of two issues, related to possible different
interpretations of the guideline about compiler flags. I would like to
have these clarified.

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> I have 2 questions. The first one is brought to my attention by a
> first time reviewer and he has got an interesting point.
>
> The guidelines at
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Compiler_flags
> say:
> "Adding to and overriding or filtering parts of these flags is
> permitted if there's a good reason to do so; the rationale for doing
> so should be reviewed and documented in the specfile especially in the
> override and filter cases."
>
> As you probably know that some packages add their own compiler flags
> on top of what we specified as %optflags. Until now, I did not do
> anything about these flags unless they override our %optflags. Now,
> having a second thought, I realized that the above statement can be
> interpreted in two ways:
>
> 1- The extra flags are added by the packager: This is the way I used
> to interpret the guideline, and I always document if I add additional
> flags on top of %{optflags}
> 2- The extra flags are added by the build script of upstream: Here is
> the question: Do we need to document such cases in the specfile? I
> know that we have hundreds (maybe thousands) of packages which don't
> document this case in the specfile. Are such packages violating the
> above guideline?
>
>
> Second question: From the same link above:
> "Compilers used to build packages should honor the applicable compiler
> flags set in the system rpm configuration."
>
> Does this apply to the stage where the compiler is doing the linking,
> i.e: "gcc -shared -lthis -lthat..."? Do we need to honor %optflags in
> this stage too? Again, I know many packages that don't pass %optflags
> to the compiler during the linking. Do these pakcages violate the
> guideline?
>
> Orcan
>



From kevin at scrye.com  Fri Apr 24 19:24:50 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:24:50 -0600
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424132450.5e8c6127@ohm.scrye.com>

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:42:48 +0300
Jussi Lehtola <jussi.lehtola at iki.fi> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> 
> there are currently 452 open Merge Reviews (out of 1009 open review
> bugs in total) open in Bugzilla. I have taken over 20 merge reviews
> in the past month or two. In the majority of cases, I haven't got any
> replies to the reviews even though some time has passed.

Please double check on all of these that you have added the current
maintainer(s) to the CC on the tickets?

The merge reviews were filed in mass and have no one attached, so in
some cases they current maintainers may be unaware of the ticket at
all. 

> A lot of the issues could be fixed in a minute or two in CVS; as I
> understand provenpackagers are allowed to do these kinds of small
> fixes after having announced it a few days in advance. Doing a review
> is of little avail if the maintainer doesn't respond.

Well, for very minor stuff, sure. However, I don't think it's a good
idea for you to make big changes to packages simply for the sake of a
merge review. You should still obey the guidelines on who is allowed to
touch what packages when. I think we also want to know in merge reviews
if our maintainer is unresponsive. 

kevin
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From bnocera at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 19:26:26 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:26:26 +0100
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <20090424181225.GA23457@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240593520.8696.1531.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424181225.GA23457@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240601186.5037.589.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 20:12 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 24.04.09 13:18, Dimi Paun (dimi at lattica.com) wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 15:44 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> > > > you are missing the point. If PA crashes, it should restart
> > > > automagically and reconnet.
> > > 
> > > Um, it does precisely that here for me.  Pleasantly surprised I was,
> > > but there ya go.  
> > 
> > That's not what I see here (with the very latest from Rawhide):
> > 
> > [dimi at dimi ~]$ ps aux | grep pulseaudio
> > dimi     11022  5.8  0.1 132916  5656 ?        S<sl 13:17   0:00 pulseaudio -D
> > dimi     11064  0.0  0.0   4200   696 pts/0    R+   13:17   0:00 grep pulseaudio
> > [dimi at dimi ~]$ kill -SIGSEGV 11022
> > [dimi at dimi ~]$ ps aux | grep pulseaudio
> > dimi     11083  0.0  0.0    312    80 pts/0    R+   13:17   0:00 grep pulseaudio
> > [dimi at dimi ~]$ sleep 10
> > [dimi at dimi ~]$ ps aux | grep pulseaudio
> > dimi     11088  0.0  0.0   4200   720 pts/0    S+   13:17   0:00 grep pulseaudio
> 
> It is autospawned when it isn't running.

when it isn't running, and it's used (eg. launch an application that
uses it, gnome-volume-control for example).



From galibert at pobox.com  Fri Apr 24 19:33:54 2009
From: galibert at pobox.com (Olivier Galibert)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:33:54 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:50:32AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> It would be good to have some text on this app that instructs people to
> file bugs if they have to resort to it.  That way we can capture the use
> cases that the default mixer is missing and help the developers better
> target things.

I don't think this is going to work.  You may not have noticed, but
when people indicate a case that is seemingly not supported by PA[1],
politely and everything, the answer by the main PA developer is either
one or both of "don't use PA then" or "your use case is rare and
uninteresting and won't be supported".

  OG.

[1] this is not the first thread where it happens



From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 19:35:49 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:35:49 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
Message-ID: <1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 21:33 +0200, Olivier Galibert wrote:
> 
> I don't think this is going to work.  You may not have noticed, but
> when people indicate a case that is seemingly not supported by PA[1],
> politely and everything, the answer by the main PA developer is either
> one or both of "don't use PA then" or "your use case is rare and
> uninteresting and won't be supported".

I really shouldn't be replying to you, but to quote Bastien:

> So my proposal is that we include by default an alternative GUI app
> which allows direct access to the mixer channels.

I don't agree with including it by default. Document it in the release
notes (or rather, update the notes, they already have some notes about
that). We _want_ to know what use cases we missed, and which ones are
worth supporting in gnome-volume-control.

</quote>

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From Matt_Domsch at dell.com  Fri Apr 24 19:38:18 2009
From: Matt_Domsch at dell.com (Matt Domsch)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:38:18 -0500
Subject: rawhide report: 20090424 changes
In-Reply-To: <20090424195403.3e959e90@fedoraproject.org>
References: <20090424142114.120361F81FB@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
	<20090424195403.3e959e90@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <20090424193818.GA27555@auslistsprd01.us.dell.com>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 07:54:03PM +0200, Simon Wesp wrote:
> rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report) wrotes:
> 
> > Broken deps for i386
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > 	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
> 
> > Broken deps for x86_64
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > 	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
> 
> 
> > Broken deps for ppc
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > 	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
> 
> > Broken deps for ppc64
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > 	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
> 
> 
> nssbackup is my package. I don't understand the problem.
> It's rawhide, with fc10 and requires python 2.5?
> It should be fc12 and requires python 2.6.
> I builded it in local mock and koji with f11 and f12 and it works, so
> what is the problem?

rel-eng is aware of the problem and are working to fix it.  The f11
packages will likely get pulled in instead of these f10 packages.

-- 
Matt Domsch
Linux Technology Strategist, Dell Office of the CTO
linux.dell.com & www.dell.com/linux



From pbrobinson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 19:38:20 2009
From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:38:20 +0100
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <20090418140028.1945bdc1@faldor.intranet>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<adf480660904180352r3612430r67d22529dec88c7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090418140028.1945bdc1@faldor.intranet>
Message-ID: <5256d0b0904241238n328303aepff236e1fa9e9c3f0@mail.gmail.com>

>> > I hereby proclaim my candidacy to become provenpackager.
>>
>> It doesn't help you to close all these tickets, because you cannot
>> simultaneously be both reviewer of package and package owner.
>
> The provenpackager would not be the owner, but just the one who applies
> fixes for issues that are found (or would be found) during the merge-review.

But the issue with that is that even though the provenpackager
wouldn't own the package they are making the change to the package
that they're reviewing and the problem with that is that there is no
review of the review to confirm that they are correct. The whole point
of the review/merge requests is that more than one person is reviewing
the package. In the case where the reviewer applies the fixes there is
no second person.

Peter



From forum at ru.bir.ru  Fri Apr 24 19:51:28 2009
From: forum at ru.bir.ru (Pavel Alexeev (aka Pahan-Hubbitus))
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:51:28 +0400
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
Message-ID: <gst580$4jf$1@ger.gmane.org>

Matthias Saou ?????:
> Hi,
> 
> Though having been able to dedicate a lot less time than before to
> Fedora during the past few years, I still maintain all of the packages
> I own as well as I can. But some packages I have lost interest in, and
> have become a burden to maintain. I'm sure others who are still using
> them would do a better job than me at maintaining them, which is why I'd
> like to orphan the following packages (open bugzilla reports listed for
> reference) :
> 
>  * djvulibre : 443953, 444699
>  * js: 341631
I take it



From forum at ru.bir.ru  Fri Apr 24 19:54:09 2009
From: forum at ru.bir.ru (Pavel Alexeev (aka Pahan-Hubbitus))
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:54:09 +0400
Subject: Orphaning a few packages
In-Reply-To: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
References: <20090412201708.06b4f61a@egwn.net>
Message-ID: <gst5d1$77f$1@ger.gmane.org>

Matthias Saou ?????:
> Hi,
> 
> Though having been able to dedicate a lot less time than before to
> Fedora during the past few years, I still maintain all of the packages
> I own as well as I can. But some packages I have lost interest in, and
> have become a burden to maintain. I'm sure others who are still using
> them would do a better job than me at maintaining them, which is why I'd
> like to orphan the following packages (open bugzilla reports listed for
> reference) :
> 
>  * djvulibre : 443953, 444699
>  * js: 341631
I've taken js.



From jussi.lehtola at iki.fi  Fri Apr 24 20:08:46 2009
From: jussi.lehtola at iki.fi (Jussi Lehtola)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:08:46 +0300
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <20090424132450.5e8c6127@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424132450.5e8c6127@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <1240603726.3104.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 13:24 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:42:48 +0300
> Jussi Lehtola <jussi.lehtola at iki.fi> wrote:
> > there are currently 452 open Merge Reviews (out of 1009 open review
> > bugs in total) open in Bugzilla. I have taken over 20 merge reviews
> > in the past month or two. In the majority of cases, I haven't got any
> > replies to the reviews even though some time has passed.
> 
> Please double check on all of these that you have added the current
> maintainer(s) to the CC on the tickets?
> 
> The merge reviews were filed in mass and have no one attached, so in
> some cases they current maintainers may be unaware of the ticket at
> all. 

I had a quick look at the merge review bugs, and all of them had RH
people in the CC list. Maybe I'll still have to check cvs who have
modified the spec lately and add them to the CC list.
-- 
Jussi Lehtola
Fedora Project Contributor
jussilehtola at fedoraproject.org



From forum at ru.bir.ru  Fri Apr 24 20:10:40 2009
From: forum at ru.bir.ru (Pavel Alexeev (aka Pahan-Hubbitus))
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:10:40 +0400
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <49E379FE.8000007@hhs.nl>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com> <49E379FE.8000007@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <gst6c0$77f$2@ger.gmane.org>

Hans de Goede ?????:
> On 04/13/2009 07:23 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>> A few more newly orphaned packages that need homes:
>>
>> funionfs:
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/funionfs
>>
>> giflib:
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/giflib
>>
>> ImageMagick:
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/ImageMagick
>>
>> libmng:
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/libmng
>>
>> Please pick them up for Fedora 10 and Devel. As an added bonus, all of
>> these packages have already been updated to their latest versions in
>> rawhide.
>>
> 
> I'm glad to hear that nmurray has orphaned them, this gives a much better
> representation of the state they have actually been in for the last 2 years
> atleast. As I've been taking care of ImageMagick during this time, I'll 
> take
> official ownership now. Co-maintainers much welcome, and if someone else
> wants it all together just say the word!
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Hans
> 
I'll want co-maintain ImageMagick if you have not objections.



From jussi.lehtola at iki.fi  Fri Apr 24 20:13:37 2009
From: jussi.lehtola at iki.fi (Jussi Lehtola)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:13:37 +0300
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0904241238n328303aepff236e1fa9e9c3f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<adf480660904180352r3612430r67d22529dec88c7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090418140028.1945bdc1@faldor.intranet>
	<5256d0b0904241238n328303aepff236e1fa9e9c3f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240604017.3104.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 20:38 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
> >> > I hereby proclaim my candidacy to become provenpackager.
> >>
> >> It doesn't help you to close all these tickets, because you cannot
> >> simultaneously be both reviewer of package and package owner.
> >
> > The provenpackager would not be the owner, but just the one who applies
> > fixes for issues that are found (or would be found) during the merge-review.
> 
> But the issue with that is that even though the provenpackager
> wouldn't own the package they are making the change to the package
> that they're reviewing and the problem with that is that there is no
> review of the review to confirm that they are correct. The whole point
> of the review/merge requests is that more than one person is reviewing
> the package. In the case where the reviewer applies the fixes there is
> no second person.

One one hand you are correct, but on the other hand
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Who_is_allowed_to_modify_which_packages
clearly states:

"If ... the changes are quite minor or considered as a general cleanup
to a lot of packages then provenpackagers are allowed to fix stuff in
other peoples packages."

>From this I'd say that provenpackagers can make trivial package review
cleanups to make the package pass the review, if the maintainer doesn't
react in some time.

Making corrections to the spec file doesn't mean building the new spec
file, not to mention pushing the new build as an update. That should be
left to the maintainer, if at all possible.

We need to shorten the review queue. Any measures that help doing so
without compromising the quality of the reviews should IMHO be done.
-- 
Jussi Lehtola
Fedora Project Contributor
jussilehtola at fedoraproject.org



From pertusus at free.fr  Fri Apr 24 20:17:16 2009
From: pertusus at free.fr (Patrice Dumas)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:17:16 +0200
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <1240604017.3104.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<adf480660904180352r3612430r67d22529dec88c7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090418140028.1945bdc1@faldor.intranet>
	<5256d0b0904241238n328303aepff236e1fa9e9c3f0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240604017.3104.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424201716.GB4978@free.fr>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:13:37PM +0300, Jussi Lehtola wrote:
> 
> One one hand you are correct, but on the other hand
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Who_is_allowed_to_modify_which_packages
> clearly states:
> 
> "If ... the changes are quite minor or considered as a general cleanup
> to a lot of packages then provenpackagers are allowed to fix stuff in
> other peoples packages."
> 
> From this I'd say that provenpackagers can make trivial package review

I think this is a wrong interpretation. The general cleanup stuff is more
for something that should be changed in many packages.

> Making corrections to the spec file doesn't mean building the new spec
> file, not to mention pushing the new build as an update. That should be
> left to the maintainer, if at all possible.

I think that you should only post patches, not commit to cvs, unless the 
package maintainer agreed to.

--
Pat



From jussi.lehtola at iki.fi  Fri Apr 24 20:16:10 2009
From: jussi.lehtola at iki.fi (Jussi Lehtola)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:16:10 +0300
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <1240603726.3104.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424132450.5e8c6127@ohm.scrye.com>
	<1240603726.3104.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240604170.3104.17.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 23:08 +0300, Jussi Lehtola wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 13:24 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > Please double check on all of these that you have added the current
> > maintainer(s) to the CC on the tickets?
> > 
> > The merge reviews were filed in mass and have no one attached, so in
> > some cases they current maintainers may be unaware of the ticket at
> > all. 
> 
> I had a quick look at the merge review bugs, and all of them had RH
> people in the CC list. Maybe I'll still have to check cvs who have
> modified the spec lately and add them to the CC list.

By the way, it would help a lot if bugzilla kept track of the
maintainers of packages, so that any open bugs would be transferred with
package ownership.
-- 
Jussi Lehtola
Fedora Project Contributor
jussilehtola at fedoraproject.org



From jussi.lehtola at iki.fi  Fri Apr 24 20:20:57 2009
From: jussi.lehtola at iki.fi (Jussi Lehtola)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:20:57 +0300
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <20090424201716.GB4978@free.fr>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<adf480660904180352r3612430r67d22529dec88c7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090418140028.1945bdc1@faldor.intranet>
	<5256d0b0904241238n328303aepff236e1fa9e9c3f0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240604017.3104.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424201716.GB4978@free.fr>
Message-ID: <1240604457.3104.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 22:17 +0200, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:13:37PM +0300, Jussi Lehtola wrote:
> > Making corrections to the spec file doesn't mean building the new spec
> > file, not to mention pushing the new build as an update. That should be
> > left to the maintainer, if at all possible.
> 
> I think that you should only post patches, not commit to cvs, unless the 
> package maintainer agreed to.

Yes, this is of course the best option.

My only question is: what do we do about dead reviews?
-- 
Jussi Lehtola
Fedora Project Contributor
jussilehtola at fedoraproject.org



From kevin at scrye.com  Fri Apr 24 20:24:23 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:24:23 -0600
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <1240603726.3104.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424132450.5e8c6127@ohm.scrye.com>
	<1240603726.3104.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424142423.2e1c3e4a@ohm.scrye.com>

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:08:46 +0300
Jussi Lehtola <jussi.lehtola at iki.fi> wrote:

> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 13:24 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:42:48 +0300
> > Jussi Lehtola <jussi.lehtola at iki.fi> wrote:
> > > there are currently 452 open Merge Reviews (out of 1009 open
> > > review bugs in total) open in Bugzilla. I have taken over 20
> > > merge reviews in the past month or two. In the majority of cases,
> > > I haven't got any replies to the reviews even though some time
> > > has passed.
> > 
> > Please double check on all of these that you have added the current
> > maintainer(s) to the CC on the tickets?
> > 
> > The merge reviews were filed in mass and have no one attached, so in
> > some cases they current maintainers may be unaware of the ticket at
> > all. 
> 
> I had a quick look at the merge review bugs, and all of them had RH
> people in the CC list. Maybe I'll still have to check cvs who have
> modified the spec lately and add them to the CC list.

Those may no longer be the current maintainers... 

Look at pkgdb? 

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/<packagename>

The owner on the rawhide/devel branch should be the one dealing with
any merge review. 

kevin
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From kevin at scrye.com  Fri Apr 24 20:27:13 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:27:13 -0600
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <1240604457.3104.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<adf480660904180352r3612430r67d22529dec88c7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090418140028.1945bdc1@faldor.intranet>
	<5256d0b0904241238n328303aepff236e1fa9e9c3f0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240604017.3104.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424201716.GB4978@free.fr>
	<1240604457.3104.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424142713.35c3f282@ohm.scrye.com>

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:20:57 +0300
Jussi Lehtola <jussi.lehtola at iki.fi> wrote:

> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 22:17 +0200, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:13:37PM +0300, Jussi Lehtola wrote:
> > > Making corrections to the spec file doesn't mean building the new
> > > spec file, not to mention pushing the new build as an update.
> > > That should be left to the maintainer, if at all possible.
> > 
> > I think that you should only post patches, not commit to cvs,
> > unless the package maintainer agreed to.
> 
> Yes, this is of course the best option.
> 
> My only question is: what do we do about dead reviews?

Depends on what you mean by 'dead reviews'?

If you mean a review where the maintainer isn't responding, perhaps we
should look at following the unresponsive maintainer policy and/or
asking them directly if they would like to hand off maintainership to
someone else who has more time? 

kevin
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From pertusus at free.fr  Fri Apr 24 20:44:26 2009
From: pertusus at free.fr (Patrice Dumas)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:44:26 +0200
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <1240604457.3104.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<adf480660904180352r3612430r67d22529dec88c7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090418140028.1945bdc1@faldor.intranet>
	<5256d0b0904241238n328303aepff236e1fa9e9c3f0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240604017.3104.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424201716.GB4978@free.fr>
	<1240604457.3104.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090424204426.GD4978@free.fr>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:20:57PM +0300, Jussi Lehtola wrote:
> 
> My only question is: what do we do about dead reviews?

Maybe there should be a variant of
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Policy_for_stalled_package_reviews#Submitter_not_responding
After the comment, the ticket should not closed, but the issue
should be reported to FESCo who should force a co-maintainership
or even reset ownership after a call on the devel mailing list
(like an orphan process).

--
Pat



From jussi.lehtola at iki.fi  Fri Apr 24 20:59:00 2009
From: jussi.lehtola at iki.fi (Jussi Lehtola)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:59:00 +0300
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <20090424142423.2e1c3e4a@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424132450.5e8c6127@ohm.scrye.com>
	<1240603726.3104.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424142423.2e1c3e4a@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <1240606740.3104.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 14:24 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:08:46 +0300
> Jussi Lehtola <jussi.lehtola at iki.fi> wrote:
> > I had a quick look at the merge review bugs, and all of them had RH
> > people in the CC list. Maybe I'll still have to check cvs who have
> > modified the spec lately and add them to the CC list.
> 
> Those may no longer be the current maintainers... 
> 
> Look at pkgdb? 
> 
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/<packagename>
> 
> The owner on the rawhide/devel branch should be the one dealing with
> any merge review. 

Right, pkgdb is the right place to look. OK, I spent some 20 minutes
figuring out owners/other people with commit rights in pkgdb and adding
them to the CC lists.

My current black list is as follows:

Package		Maintainer
-------------------------------------
libieee1284:	twaugh at redhat com
mkinitrd:	pjones
mozplugger:	than
pychecker:	vcrhonek
python-pyblock:	pjones
switchdesk:	than
sysreport:	than

These have had no activity, although the owner has been on the CC list
from the beginning.
-- 
Jussi Lehtola
Fedora Project Contributor
jussilehtola at fedoraproject.org



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 21:11:35 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:11:35 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240599627.5037.562.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240597402.5037.521.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240598350.3955.252.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599627.5037.562.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240607495.3955.256.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 20:00 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:

> Except that it'll still be installed for upgrades.

I don't really see that as a huge problem. I mean, you're going to get
sprawl over time in upgrades anyway. It's a very small issue (it costs
one menu entry and, oh, maybe 1MB of disk space) compared to the benefit
we get for F11 in terms of non-pissed-off users (and time saved by the
folks who do front line support on mailing lists, IRC and the forums).

Anyway, it was discussed by FESco and approved, so now I've just got to
work to get the package resurrected and updated.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU  Fri Apr 24 21:16:22 2009
From: nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Fernando Lopez-Lezcano)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:16:22 -0700
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <20090424181904.GB23457@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240548463.3955.199.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240591445.23593.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424170050.GA16380@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240596141.23593.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424181904.GB23457@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240607782.23593.137.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 20:19 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 24.04.09 11:02, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano (nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 19:00 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > > On Fri, 24.04.09 09:44, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano (nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I have to document this workaround in my Planet CCRMA installation pages
> > > > to make the overall system usable. It is interesting to observe how,
> > > > over the years, Fedora gets closer and closer to a usable out of the box
> > > > sound experience for Planet CCRMA users and then, suddenly, we are all
> > > > back to editing system files as root to make it usable again. 
> > > 
> > > Please update those documents and teach folks to use the 
> > > card names instead of the card index.
> > 
> > What would be the name that corresponds to hw:x, and how do I find it?
> 
> Please read my responses to your emails. That's why I write them.
> 
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg01950.html

Thanks!
-- Fernando




From wwoods at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 21:23:33 2009
From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:23:33 -0400
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240599627.5037.562.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240597402.5037.521.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240598350.3955.252.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599627.5037.562.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240608213.3074.10.camel@metroid.usersys.redhat.com>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 20:00 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 11:39 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> >  Honestly, I totally expect that by f12, g-v-c
> > will be good enough to be the only GUI 'mixer' installed by default. I'm
> > proposing this as a stopgap for a single release.
> 
> Except that it'll still be installed for upgrades. So it should be a
> conscious decision of the administrator of the machine/user to install
> it. If we were to obsolete it with gnome-volume-control, we'd get yelled
> out, and for a reason.

This was also true of, say, the original gnome-packagekit and pirut.
Eventually gnome-packagekit was widely accepted to be a full replacement
for pirut and it grew: "Obsoletes: pirut ..." and nobody minded and we
all went out for beers. 

It's all going to work out OK in the end. "The middle of every
successful project looks like a disaster" and "The only way out is
through" and all that. F12 Alpha is something like 3 months away. Let's
concentrate on moving forward. 

Onward to better volume controls! And cold* beers!

-w

*or preferred beer temperature for your locale



From nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU  Fri Apr 24 21:24:25 2009
From: nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Fernando Lopez-Lezcano)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:24:25 -0700
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <20090424181904.GB23457@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<e76492710904121753o28ec7b6fk97f4b65f4896a60f@mail.gmail.com>
	<gs45gg$ofb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240548463.3955.199.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240591445.23593.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424170050.GA16380@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240596141.23593.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424181904.GB23457@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240608265.23593.141.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 20:19 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 24.04.09 11:02, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano (nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 19:00 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > > On Fri, 24.04.09 09:44, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano (nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I have to document this workaround in my Planet CCRMA installation pages
> > > > to make the overall system usable. It is interesting to observe how,
> > > > over the years, Fedora gets closer and closer to a usable out of the box
> > > > sound experience for Planet CCRMA users and then, suddenly, we are all
> > > > back to editing system files as root to make it usable again. 
> > > 
> > > Please update those documents and teach folks to use the 
> > > card names instead of the card index.
> > 
> > What would be the name that corresponds to hw:x, and how do I find it?
> 
> Please read my responses to your emails. That's why I write them.

(BTW, I read them. I see the message in the archives, it is not <yet?>
in my mailbox, Evolution FC10, don't know why - delayed, spam filtered,
don't know). 

> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg01950.html

Thanks again.
-- Fernando




From surenkarapetyan at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 21:24:03 2009
From: surenkarapetyan at gmail.com (Suren Karapetyan)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:24:03 +0500
Subject: kde-4.2.2 - kded4 eating cpu cycles
In-Reply-To: <200904241726.31016.jreznik@redhat.com>
References: <200904241831.55775.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<200904241726.31016.jreznik@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200904250224.04151.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>

On Friday 24 April 2009 20:26:30 Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
>
> We know about it [1] but now we have no idea what's wrong...
>
> [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497314
>
> Jaroslav
>

Thanks for the link!
Will try to help find out what's the problem is.

Suren



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Fri Apr 24 21:35:19 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 03:05:19 +0530
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <1240593145.8696.1519.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>	<49F0D901.2000003@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240593145.8696.1519.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
Message-ID: <49F23097.4020003@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/24/2009 10:42 PM, Dimi Paun wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 02:39 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> On 04/24/2009 02:27 AM, Dimi Paun wrote:
>>> But I just spent 15+ minutes trying to get Skype to work, and let
>>> me tell you it's been brutal. Is there any chance of getting Skype
>>> to work reliably? Or flash?
>> Works fine here.
> 
> For how long? As I said, it works for me too at first, just to
> mysteriously stop working in 20-30h. That's not reliable in my books :)

I have used it for many hours without any issues.

Rahul



From jam at zoidtechnologies.com  Fri Apr 24 21:34:36 2009
From: jam at zoidtechnologies.com (Jeff MacDonald)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:34:36 -0400
Subject: evolution as mta not showing emails (was Re: PulseAudio and sound
	apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages))
In-Reply-To: <1240608265.23593.141.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090424181904.GB23457@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240608265.23593.141.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904241734.42300.jam@zoidtechnologies.com>

On Friday 24 April 2009 17:24:25 Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
>
> (BTW, I read them. I see the message in the archives, it is not <yet?>
> in my mailbox, Evolution FC10, don't know why - delayed, spam filtered,
> don't know).
>
>
> Thanks again.
> -- Fernando

Try 'mutt' or 'kmail' or 'pine' and see if the problem persists. If not, file a 
bug report against evo-- that's the only way these issues can be addressed.




From kevin at scrye.com  Fri Apr 24 21:54:48 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:54:48 -0600
Subject: RFE: Makefile.common patch to error out when no spec is present
Message-ID: <20090424155448.47d55388@ohm.scrye.com>

Greetings. 

I know some of you have run into this situation: 

If you have a package where there is no *.spec file present and you try
to run any of the fedora cvs Makefile.common targets, nothing happens
and the command just hangs. 

Turns out it's doing a grep of the spec file to figure out if the
package is noarch or not. When there is no spec file the grep hangs. 

Here's a very hacky patch that should at least error out in this case. 

Makefile hackers welcome to provide a better one. 

kevin
--
Index: Makefile.common
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvs/extras/common/Makefile.common,v
retrieving revision 1.127
diff -u -r1.127 Makefile.common
--- Makefile.common	15 Apr 2009 04:57:41 -0000	1.127
+++ Makefile.common	24 Apr 2009 21:15:03 -0000
@@ -35,6 +35,9 @@
 
 BUILD_FLAGS ?= $(KOJI_FLAGS)
 
+ifndef $(SPECFILE)
+SPECFILE = "NO_SPEC_FILE_FOUND"
+endif
 LOCALARCH := $(if $(shell grep -i '^BuildArch:.*noarch' $(SPECFILE)), noarch, $(shell uname -m))
 
 ## a base directory where we'll put as much temporary working stuff as we can
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From dimi at lattica.com  Fri Apr 24 21:55:55 2009
From: dimi at lattica.com (Dimi Paun)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:55:55 -0400
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <49F23097.4020003@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<49F0D901.2000003@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240593145.8696.1519.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<49F23097.4020003@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1240610155.8696.1825.camel@dimi.lattica.com>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 03:05 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > For how long? As I said, it works for me too at first, just to
> > mysteriously stop working in 20-30h. That's not reliable in my
> books :)
> 
> I have used it for many hours without any issues.

That's good for you, but not helpful for me. Something is going on. 
As I said, it just happened again today, after only a few days since 
the last reboot. I don't do anything special with sound, I use standard
hardware, standard programs, etc.

I'll keep Lennart posted as soon as I can reproduce it.

-- 
Dimi Paun <dimi at lattica.com>
Lattica, Inc.



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 22:13:38 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:13:38 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240607495.3955.256.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240597402.5037.521.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240598350.3955.252.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599627.5037.562.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240607495.3955.256.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240611218.3955.257.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 14:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

> I don't really see that as a huge problem. I mean, you're going to get
> sprawl over time in upgrades anyway. It's a very small issue (it costs
> one menu entry and, oh, maybe 1MB of disk space) compared to the benefit

BTW, for anyone wondering about size in the context of our rather
crammed disc images: the binary RPM is 75KB.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Fri Apr 24 22:14:04 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:14:04 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 12:35 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> We _want_ to know what use cases we missed, and which ones are
> worth supporting in gnome-volume-control.

Do we? Then why are we closing bugs WONTFIX?

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From kevin at scrye.com  Fri Apr 24 22:13:56 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:13:56 -0600
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
Message-ID: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>

== Members Present ==

 * Jon Stanley (jds2001)
 * Kevin Fenzi (nirik)
 * Dan Horak (sharkcz)
 * Josh Boyer (jwb)
 * Brian Pepple (bpepple)
 * David Woodhouse (dwmw2)
 * Dennis Gilmore (dgilmore)

== Members Absent ==

 * Bill Nottingham (notting)
 * Jarod Wilson (j-rod)

== Sponsor request - mmahut ==

This request was approved.

== Sponsor request - s4504kr ==

This request was approved.

== Sponsor request - peter ==

This request was approved.

== Sponsor request - jussilehtola ==

This request was approved after some discussion about what changes are
appropriate to make for a reviewer in a Merge review. 

== Provenpackager request - lennart == 

This request was approved.

== PulseAudio regression handling == 

Long and contentious discussion about concerns with the VolumeControl
feature. FESCo decided to get gnome-alsamixer packaged and added to the
default desktop live/install spins to allow users whos use cases are
not covered currently by VolumeControl to have a GUI way to adjust
mixer settings. Hopefully this will be dropped/revisited in F12. 

== IRC LOG == 

Log posted at:  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:FESCo-2009_04_24
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 22:21:15 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:21:15 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 23:14 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 12:35 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > We _want_ to know what use cases we missed, and which ones are
> > worth supporting in gnome-volume-control.
> 
> Do we? Then why are we closing bugs WONTFIX?

Second part of the sentence: "which ones are worth supporting in
gnome-volume-control". Presumably it's the ones that aren't "worth
supporting" that get closed WONTFIX.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From dr.diesel at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 22:27:35 2009
From: dr.diesel at gmail.com (Dr. Diesel)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:27:35 -0400
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <49F23097.4020003@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<49F0D901.2000003@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240593145.8696.1519.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<49F23097.4020003@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <2a28d2ab0904241527u242c17c9i48a56043054dd50b@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Rahul Sundaram
<sundaram at fedoraproject.org>wrote:

> On 04/24/2009 10:42 PM, Dimi Paun wrote:
> > On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 02:39 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >> On 04/24/2009 02:27 AM, Dimi Paun wrote:
> >>> But I just spent 15+ minutes trying to get Skype to work, and let
> >>> me tell you it's been brutal. Is there any chance of getting Skype
> >>> to work reliably? Or flash?
> >> Works fine here.
> >
> > For how long? As I said, it works for me too at first, just to
> > mysteriously stop working in 20-30h. That's not reliable in my books :)
>

Although it hasn't happened in about 3 weeks now, PA would stop working
every 1-3 days for me.

Also for the first several months of F10 the sound would skip on the first
2-3 seconds of any sound I played. That seems to be fixed now though..

And I just realized this looks to be a F11 thread, my comments might be
mute!


>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



-- 
projecthuh.com
All of my bits are free, are yours?  Fedoraproject.org
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From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Fri Apr 24 22:48:49 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:48:49 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 15:21 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> Second part of the sentence: "which ones are worth supporting in
> gnome-volume-control". Presumably it's the ones that aren't "worth
> supporting" that get closed WONTFIX.

There are two separate categories to consider:
 "worth supporting in PulseAudio", vs. 
 "worth supporting in Fedora"

I think we've established that there are a number of cases in the latter
category which _don't_ fit into the former. And those are the ones which
have been closed WONTFIX.

And it's fine for the PulseAudio folks to say that -- PulseAudio
deliberately _doesn't_ set out to be all things to all people.

It's just that the scope of PulseAudio is a little _too_ limited for
Fedora to stomach.

So we need a way to restore functionality for those users who fall
outside the PA scope -- for the moment, shipping gnome-alsamixer (as
decided by FESCo today) will bridge that gap.

I'm not sure if we'll find a better solution than that in the future.

I don't think we're just going to decide that Fedora doesn't care about
these users -- and from what I saw today I don't think it's likely that
the PA folks will decide that they _do_ care.

So it looks like if we keep PulseAudio as the core around which Fedora
audio support is based, we're _always_ going to need to keep something
extra to fill the functionality gap.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From awilliam at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 23:04:59 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:04:59 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <1240614299.3955.265.camel@adam.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 23:48 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 15:21 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > Second part of the sentence: "which ones are worth supporting in
> > gnome-volume-control". Presumably it's the ones that aren't "worth
> > supporting" that get closed WONTFIX.
> 
> There are two separate categories to consider:
>  "worth supporting in PulseAudio", vs. 
>  "worth supporting in Fedora"
> 
> I think we've established that there are a number of cases in the latter
> category which _don't_ fit into the former. And those are the ones which
> have been closed WONTFIX.
> 
> And it's fine for the PulseAudio folks to say that -- PulseAudio
> deliberately _doesn't_ set out to be all things to all people.
> 
> It's just that the scope of PulseAudio is a little _too_ limited for
> Fedora to stomach.
> 
> So we need a way to restore functionality for those users who fall
> outside the PA scope -- for the moment, shipping gnome-alsamixer (as
> decided by FESCo today) will bridge that gap.
> 
> I'm not sure if we'll find a better solution than that in the future.
> 
> I don't think we're just going to decide that Fedora doesn't care about
> these users -- and from what I saw today I don't think it's likely that
> the PA folks will decide that they _do_ care.
> 
> So it looks like if we keep PulseAudio as the core around which Fedora
> audio support is based, we're _always_ going to need to keep something
> extra to fill the functionality gap.

I was just envisaging making sure we always have a low-level mixer app
available, but not necessarily installed by default. If the Pulse stuff
gets to the point where it covers 95% of cases I personally won't lose
any sleep over having to tell the other 5% to install gnome-alsamixer or
whatever.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From caillon at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 23:11:24 2009
From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:11:24 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240607495.3955.256.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>	<1240597402.5037.521.camel@cookie.hadess.net>	<1240598350.3955.252.camel@adam.local.net>	<1240599627.5037.562.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240607495.3955.256.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49F2471C.5050909@redhat.com>

On 04/24/2009 02:11 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 20:00 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
>
>> Except that it'll still be installed for upgrades.
>
> I don't really see that as a huge problem. I mean, you're going to get
> sprawl over time in upgrades anyway. It's a very small issue (it costs
> one menu entry and, oh, maybe 1MB of disk space) compared to the benefit
> we get for F11 in terms of non-pissed-off users (and time saved by the
> folks who do front line support on mailing lists, IRC and the forums).
>
> Anyway, it was discussed by FESco and approved, so now I've just got to
> work to get the package resurrected and updated.

Cough.  Don't forget we've been down this road already.  Mandating 
feature changes post feature freeze that is.  See codeina.  Eventually 
the Board reversed that decision.  And that debate was based on one of 
the basic tenets of Fedora and freedom.  Seriously guys, do I really 
need to escalate this to the Board?



From caillon at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 23:28:23 2009
From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:28:23 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>

On 04/24/2009 03:13 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> == PulseAudio regression handling ==
>
> Long and contentious discussion about concerns with the VolumeControl
> feature. FESCo decided to get gnome-alsamixer packaged and added to the
> default desktop live/install spins to allow users whos use cases are
> not covered currently by VolumeControl to have a GUI way to adjust
> mixer settings. Hopefully this will be dropped/revisited in F12.

Wearing my Board hat, I'll give a quick history lesson: changes were 
mandated to codeina a few releases ago post feature freeze.  The changes 
would have made codeina more acceptable for Fedora's stance on freedom, 
however that change was reversed by the board because it was mandated 
post feature freeze, and it was agreed future mandates, if any, would 
come down pre-feature freeze, but we should not be in the business of 
giving mandates.

So, can someone tell me how mandating this is more important than 
mandating Fedora be free, and why this decree should not be reversed? 
Do I really need to bring this up at the next board meeting?



From airlied at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 23:36:18 2009
From: airlied at redhat.com (Dave Airlie)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:36:18 +1000
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com> <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 16:28 -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote:
> On 04/24/2009 03:13 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > == PulseAudio regression handling ==
> >
> > Long and contentious discussion about concerns with the VolumeControl
> > feature. FESCo decided to get gnome-alsamixer packaged and added to the
> > default desktop live/install spins to allow users whos use cases are
> > not covered currently by VolumeControl to have a GUI way to adjust
> > mixer settings. Hopefully this will be dropped/revisited in F12.
> 
> Wearing my Board hat, I'll give a quick history lesson: changes were 
> mandated to codeina a few releases ago post feature freeze.  The changes 
> would have made codeina more acceptable for Fedora's stance on freedom, 
> however that change was reversed by the board because it was mandated 
> post feature freeze, and it was agreed future mandates, if any, would 
> come down pre-feature freeze, but we should not be in the business of 
> giving mandates.
> 
> So, can someone tell me how mandating this is more important than 
> mandating Fedora be free, and why this decree should not be reversed? 
> Do I really need to bring this up at the next board meeting?


If they can't mandate this then I suspect the only option left is to
enact the contingency plan, which neither party seems to want to happen.

So I'm not sure I see the point in you forcing any point.

Dave.




From caillon at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 23:41:59 2009
From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:41:59 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com> <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>

On 04/24/2009 04:36 PM, Dave Airlie wrote:
> If they can't mandate this then I suspect the only option left is to
> enact the contingency plan, which neither party seems to want to happen.
>
> So I'm not sure I see the point in you forcing any point.

The plan is as designed per the feature page.  Just some people decided 
post-freeze that they don't like it.



From jkeating at redhat.com  Fri Apr 24 23:52:45 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:52:45 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 16:41 -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote:
> On 04/24/2009 04:36 PM, Dave Airlie wrote:
> > If they can't mandate this then I suspect the only option left is to
> > enact the contingency plan, which neither party seems to want to happen.
> >
> > So I'm not sure I see the point in you forcing any point.
> 
> The plan is as designed per the feature page.  Just some people decided 
> post-freeze that they don't like it.

Or rather didn't fully understand the limited scope of coverage for F11.
FESCo isn't mandating anything.  In fact after a long and (un)healthy
discussion, a compromise for the sake of F11 was reached, one that
doesn't require any changes to existing software, only the addition of
one package.  Comparing it to the Codina fiasco isn't exactly fair.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From caillon at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 00:15:14 2009
From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:15:14 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>

On 04/24/2009 04:52 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 16:41 -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote:
>> On 04/24/2009 04:36 PM, Dave Airlie wrote:
>>> If they can't mandate this then I suspect the only option left is to
>>> enact the contingency plan, which neither party seems to want to happen.
>>>
>>> So I'm not sure I see the point in you forcing any point.
>> The plan is as designed per the feature page.  Just some people decided
>> post-freeze that they don't like it.
>
> Or rather didn't fully understand the limited scope of coverage for F11.
> FESCo isn't mandating anything.  In fact after a long and (un)healthy
> discussion, a compromise for the sake of F11 was reached, one that
> doesn't require any changes to existing software, only the addition of
> one package.

A compromise works best if both parties are on board.  I don't believe 
that the desktop guys will object to the package existing and being 
installable if people want.  No CLI needed since we have GUI install 
tools.  The objection is with the mandate for it to be installed by 
default on the desktop live/install spins.



From jkeating at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 00:40:15 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:40:15 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 17:15 -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote:
> A compromise works best if both parties are on board.  I don't believe 
> that the desktop guys will object to the package existing and being 
> installable if people want.  No CLI needed since we have GUI install 
> tools.  The objection is with the mandate for it to be installed by 
> default on the desktop live/install spins.

See, the Desktop team has no say in whether or not a graphical mixer is
available in Fedora.  The middle ground between reverting the mixer
feature all together and leaving at is it is having a graphical mixer
installed by default available in the menus.  That was the compromise.
If the Desktop team really feels like this wasn't a compromise and it
was something mandated and forced, they can raise it to the board level
if they wish.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 00:48:18 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:48:18 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 17:15 -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote:

> A compromise works best if both parties are on board.  I don't believe 
> that the desktop guys will object to the package existing and being 
> installable if people want.  No CLI needed since we have GUI install 
> tools.  The objection is with the mandate for it to be installed by 
> default on the desktop live/install spins.

*All* parties agreed on the compromise during the meeting, including
those speaking on behalf of the desktop group. Approximate quote (since
I'm on my laptop and don't have the IRC log handy): "I gave you that if
it's what's needed to make this issue go away". Not everyone has to be
100% happy with a compromise (not everyone on the other side of the
fence is 100% happy with it either), it just has to be agreed.
-- 
Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
Red Hat



From a.badger at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 00:45:01 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:45:01 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com> <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>

Christopher Aillon wrote:
> On 04/24/2009 03:13 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>> == PulseAudio regression handling ==
>>
>> Long and contentious discussion about concerns with the VolumeControl
>> feature. FESCo decided to get gnome-alsamixer packaged and added to the
>> default desktop live/install spins to allow users whos use cases are
>> not covered currently by VolumeControl to have a GUI way to adjust
>> mixer settings. Hopefully this will be dropped/revisited in F12.
> 
> Wearing my Board hat, I'll give a quick history lesson: changes were
> mandated to codeina a few releases ago post feature freeze.  The changes
> would have made codeina more acceptable for Fedora's stance on freedom,
> however that change was reversed by the board because it was mandated
> post feature freeze, and it was agreed future mandates, if any, would
> come down pre-feature freeze, but we should not be in the business of
> giving mandates.
> 
So I wasn't paying much attention to the codeina bruhaha so please
correct me if I'm wrong in my recollections.  My impression was that
FESCo passed on making further changes to the Codeina feature and
*asked* the Board to make a decision because Codeina was a political
issue rather than a technical one.  It was also a case where there was
strong feeling by some that codeina violated our principles, the
engineers in charge felt like it didn't, and FESCo, at least by the time
it got to the Board, had decided it wasn't comfortable casting the
deciding ballot.

Are either of those correct?  Because in this case we have something
that's a technical issue rather than a political one and FESCo has a
very definite opinion of what the desired outcome should be.  They've
also worked with the engineers to come to a compromise solution that
makes no one happy but is tolerable to all.  It doesn't require ripping
out, replacing, or modifying the existing feature.  The compromise just
adds another package to the install.  So to my outside view there's a
lot of difference between this case and codeina.

> So, can someone tell me how mandating this is more important than
> mandating Fedora be free,

If there's a question of whether something is free and FESCo doesn't
think it's cut and dry what the answer is, it becomes a Board decision
whether the problem falls on the not-for-Fedora side of non-free or the
ok-with-reservations side.  (Even if it's not cut and dry, it may be a
Board decision but packagers and FESCo have handled the "easy" cases on
their own to the benefit of all.... You wouldn't want license questions
to have to go through the Board when spot and the Packaging Committee
with FESCo for arbitration is usually enough.)

So the answer to your question is it's not more important than Fedora
being Free but rather, different than that decision.

> and why this decree should not be reversed?

In today's voting, FESCo as a whole refused to micromanage the desktop
SIG into changing existing UI.  This isn't because they changed their
minds about the ideal state of mixers in Fedora 11 but because they saw
that when you disagree with people that you delegate power to you have
to work with the other party to accommodate both your interests and theirs.

If the Board wants to reverse the decision of what goes onto a spin by
default they can because they are the source of FESCo's authority on
technical matters.  But that means that they're taking away all of the
authority that they've given FESCo for technical matters with no
compromise which is a very different thing than what occurred between
FESCo and the Desktop SIG at today's meeting.

> Do I really need to bring this up at the next board meeting?
> 
That's a very strange question as only you know what you have to do.  If
you are asking whether FESCo wants you to do so I'm afraid I'm not on
FESCo so I can't answer.

-Toshio

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From airlied at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 00:51:29 2009
From: airlied at redhat.com (Dave Airlie)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 10:51:29 +1000
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240620689.26274.4.camel@localhost>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 17:40 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 17:15 -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote:
> > A compromise works best if both parties are on board.  I don't believe 
> > that the desktop guys will object to the package existing and being 
> > installable if people want.  No CLI needed since we have GUI install 
> > tools.  The objection is with the mandate for it to be installed by 
> > default on the desktop live/install spins.
> 
> See, the Desktop team has no say in whether or not a graphical mixer is
> available in Fedora.  The middle ground between reverting the mixer
> feature all together and leaving at is it is having a graphical mixer
> installed by default available in the menus.  That was the compromise.
> If the Desktop team really feels like this wasn't a compromise and it
> was something mandated and forced, they can raise it to the board level
> if they wish.
> 

The mandate is for both Desktop/LiveCD spin and Fedora default install,
surely the Desktop team does decide for the desktop/livecd spin, but not
or the Fedora install. Since I'm sure the KDE spin won't want to include
either of these.

Dave.

> -- 
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list



From a.badger at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 01:12:01 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:12:01 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240620689.26274.4.camel@localhost>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240620689.26274.4.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <49F26361.7090409@gmail.com>

Dave Airlie wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 17:40 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> See, the Desktop team has no say in whether or not a graphical mixer is
>> available in Fedora.  The middle ground between reverting the mixer
>> feature all together and leaving at is it is having a graphical mixer
>> installed by default available in the menus.  That was the compromise.
> 
> The mandate is for both Desktop/LiveCD spin and Fedora default install,
> surely the Desktop team does decide for the desktop/livecd spin, but not
> or the Fedora install. Since I'm sure the KDE spin won't want to include
> either of these.
> 
Jesse was replying to this:

> A compromise works best if both parties are on board.  I don't believe
> that the desktop guys will object to the package existing and being
> installable if people want.

In that context he's saying that "the package existing and being
installable" is not something that the Desktop team has a say over.  So
saying that they wouldn't block that from happening is not a compromise.
 It's how things would have been without a compromise.

-Toshio

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From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sat Apr 25 01:26:53 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 03:26:53 +0200
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com> <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost> <49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090425012653.GB32162@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 17:48, Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 17:15 -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote:
> 
> > A compromise works best if both parties are on board.  I don't believe 
> > that the desktop guys will object to the package existing and being 
> > installable if people want.  No CLI needed since we have GUI install 
> > tools.  The objection is with the mandate for it to be installed by 
> > default on the desktop live/install spins.
> 
> *All* parties agreed on the compromise during the meeting, including
> those speaking on behalf of the desktop group. Approximate quote (since
> I'm on my laptop and don't have the IRC log handy): "I gave you that if
> it's what's needed to make this issue go away". Not everyone has to be
> 100% happy with a compromise (not everyone on the other side of the
> fence is 100% happy with it either), it just has to be agreed.

I am not sure if am a considered a 'party' here. This was a decision
of FESCO which I am not part of -- so if I agree or not doesn't matter.

To state this clearly: I did _not_ agree with this 'compromise'. I
think shipping two mixers like this by default is a bad decision, and
I am pretty sure that the big majority of the desktop group is with me
on that.

What I can agree on is that this 'discussion' needs to end. And that's
why I just don't care anymore. I didn't escalate this to FESCO in the
first plce, and I am not fighting this further.

I find it a bit weird that FESCO feels to have to intervene in this
case. Apparently FESCO thinks that making decision on bloody volume
controls is more appropriately done by FESCO than by the desktop
folks. And let me also state that I find it a bit dubious that if a
certain person is not happy with a decision a group of people make in
Fedora he runs to some commitee he himself happens to be member of and
then uses it to push it through regardless what the folks whose area
of expertise the issue belongs to think.

In summary: well done!

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sat Apr 25 01:34:12 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 03:34:12 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 23:48, David Woodhouse (dwmw2 at infradead.org) wrote:

> I don't think we're just going to decide that Fedora doesn't care about
> these users -- and from what I saw today I don't think it's likely that
> the PA folks will decide that they _do_ care.
> 
> So it looks like if we keep PulseAudio as the core around which Fedora
> audio support is based, we're _always_ going to need to keep something
> extra to fill the functionality gap.

Oh great. This sounds like an invitation to stop working on cleaning
up the volume control situation entirely. If we never can get rid of
the old cruft and need to prominently feature it in all future release
then why even try?

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sat Apr 25 01:38:07 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 03:38:07 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240614299.3955.265.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240614299.3955.265.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>

On Fri, 24.04.09 16:04, Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) wrote:

> > I'm not sure if we'll find a better solution than that in the future.
> > 
> > I don't think we're just going to decide that Fedora doesn't care about
> > these users -- and from what I saw today I don't think it's likely that
> > the PA folks will decide that they _do_ care.
> > 
> > So it looks like if we keep PulseAudio as the core around which Fedora
> > audio support is based, we're _always_ going to need to keep something
> > extra to fill the functionality gap.
> 
> I was just envisaging making sure we always have a low-level mixer app
> available, but not necessarily installed by default. If the Pulse stuff
> gets to the point where it covers 95% of cases I personally won't lose
> any sleep over having to tell the other 5% to install gnome-alsamixer or
> whatever.

Juggling with numbers like this is pointless in a Free Software. We
have no clue about our end users. All we have is common sense -- whch
in this case is not that common apparently.

Apparently dwmw2's dad plus Callum Lerwick are now what we should be
designing our Linux desktop for. It's very hard to reach 95% of that
group.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From caillon at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 01:48:29 2009
From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:48:29 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>

On 04/24/2009 05:40 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 17:15 -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote:
>> A compromise works best if both parties are on board.  I don't believe
>> that the desktop guys will object to the package existing and being
>> installable if people want.  No CLI needed since we have GUI install
>> tools.  The objection is with the mandate for it to be installed by
>> default on the desktop live/install spins.
>
> See, the Desktop team has no say in whether or not a graphical mixer is
> available in Fedora.  The middle ground between reverting the mixer
> feature all together and leaving at is it is having a graphical mixer
> installed by default available in the menus.  That was the compromise.
> If the Desktop team really feels like this wasn't a compromise and it
> was something mandated and forced, they can raise it to the board level
> if they wish.

To make it clearer:

Before today's FESCo meeting:
* The old mixer was removed
* 1 mixer installed by default in the desktop spin.
* The old mixer could not be installed via PK or yum

Today's FESCO Mandate:
* Revive the old mixer
* Ship 2 mixers by default in the desktop spin.

Compromise seems like it would be something along the lines of:
* Revive the old mixer
* 1 mixer installed by default in the desktop spin
* The old mixer can be installed via PK or yum



From bnocera at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 02:09:06 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 03:09:06 +0100
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <1240625346.5037.1011.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 16:13 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
<snip>
> == IRC LOG == 
> 
> Log posted at:  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:FESCo-2009_04_24

"
<wwoods> Since it's come to this, I think we can say that the QA Team
recommendation is that the VolumeControl feature does *not* match its
original specification and should therefore be deferred to F12 *unless*
there's some other way provided cover the missing bits of functionality
- e.g. providing the old mixer UI somewhere in the menus.
"

The only thing that doesn't match on that page is this:
"
The multimedia experience of Fedora users is improved by an easily
understandable and much more flexible volume control model.
"

As it's improved, but not for all users.



From bnocera at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 02:09:15 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 03:09:15 +0100
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 18:48 -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote:
<snip>
> To make it clearer:
> 
> Before today's FESCo meeting:
> * The old mixer was removed
> * 1 mixer installed by default in the desktop spin.
> * The old mixer could not be installed via PK or yum
> 
> Today's FESCO Mandate:
> * Revive the old mixer
> * Ship 2 mixers by default in the desktop spin.
> 
> Compromise seems like it would be something along the lines of:
> * Revive the old mixer
> * 1 mixer installed by default in the desktop spin
> * The old mixer can be installed via PK or yum

FYI, Adam didn't revive the old mixer (that is still in gnome-media, but
disabled), he revived gnome-alsamixer, another GNOME ALSA mixer with no
upstream.

The URL mentioned in the spec file[1] says:
"The page cannot be found"

If the thing is going to get installed by default, you should at _least_
package up the old gnome-volume-control. Otherwise, yes, I'll be a pain
and drag this to the board.

[1]: http://www.paw.co.za/projects/gnome-alsamixer/



From a.badger at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 02:30:09 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:30:09 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>	<1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F275B1.8040900@gmail.com>

Christopher Aillon wrote:
> To make it clearer:
> 
> Before today's FESCo meeting:
> * The old mixer was removed
> * 1 mixer installed by default in the desktop spin.
> * The old mixer could not be installed via PK or yum
> 
> Today's FESCO Mandate:
> * Revive the old mixer
> * Ship 2 mixers by default in the desktop spin.
> 
> Compromise seems like it would be something along the lines of:
> * Revive the old mixer
> * 1 mixer installed by default in the desktop spin
> * The old mixer can be installed via PK or yum
> 
I'm afraid what you're diagraming has nothing to do with compromise.
The diagram you draw implies that the level of compromise depends on how
much has changed state in the distro between the first step and last
step.  By that logic, this would be a better compromise than what
actually happened:

Before today's FESCo meeting:
* The old mixer was removed
* 1 mixer installed by default in the desktop spin.
* XFCE, KDE, N Other mixers available via PK or yum

Today's FESCo Mandate:
* Ship new mixers by default in the desktop spin.
* Ship KDE mixer by default in the desktop spin.

This makes only one change just like your compromise.

What's really involved in compromise is how far each party moves from
their original positions from the beginning of the process:

Pre meeting FESCo
* new mixer is not sufficient to meet many user's needs
  - put alternative graphical mixer onto the default spin
  - add a button to the new mixer to invoke the alternate

Pre meeting desktop Team
* New mixer is sufficient for all but a few pro user's needs.
  - 1 new mixer installed
  - new mixer runs in panel

Post meeting
* 2 mixers installed
* new mixer runs in panel
* alternate mixer hidden away in the menus

Note that from my outside view we have one glaring problem with our
compromise.  We've compromised on what programs go into the images for
F11 but we haven't resolved the fundamental differences of opinion as to
what the user's needs are.  Without that this problem will reoccur in
F12, F13, ands o on.

-Toshio

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From remy.maucherat at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 02:39:43 2009
From: remy.maucherat at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9my_Maucherat?=)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 04:39:43 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240614299.3955.265.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <6d959d480904241939h1ff3e339rc18999cea848c8b0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 3:38 AM, Lennart Poettering
<mzerqung at 0pointer.de> wrote:
> Juggling with numbers like this is pointless in a Free Software. We
> have no clue about our end users. All we have is common sense -- whch
> in this case is not that common apparently.
>
> Apparently dwmw2's dad plus Callum Lerwick are now what we should be
> designing our Linux desktop for. It's very hard to reach 95% of that
> group.

Reading the IRC log, the Fesco members technical arguments sound
limited, and do focus on legacy use cases. That's really 10 years old
stuff (CD line in - PC speaker was mentioned too - unused for me in
that timeframe ...), so if this does not represent less than 5% of
users, I wonder what will.

There might be a conceptual problem with this decision, which
perpetuates UIs that are throwbacks to the 90s. The main thing Fedora
has going for it is its technical vision (given it does not do
proprietary stuff, patented stuff, or DMCA violating stuff, usability
is somewhat limited for "dad" type users), where breakage is well
accepted on the graphics side, not so on the sound side it seems.

R?my



From awilliam at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 06:22:57 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:22:57 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
	<1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240640577.3011.9.camel@vaio.local.net>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 03:09 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:

> FYI, Adam didn't revive the old mixer (that is still in gnome-media, but
> disabled), he revived gnome-alsamixer, another GNOME ALSA mixer with no
> upstream.

It does have one; it's part of GNOME's git. The git checkout command is
included as a comment right at the top of the spec.

> The URL mentioned in the spec file[1] says:
> "The page cannot be found"

Sorry, I'll adjust that.

> If the thing is going to get installed by default, you should at _least_
> package up the old gnome-volume-control. Otherwise, yes, I'll be a pain
> and drag this to the board.

My thinking on that is explained in the bug report. I'd say the old
g-v-c has less of an upstream, because the old g-v-c effectively doesn't
exist anywhere except in history. Where could it get developed in
future, if we wanted to push some changes upstream? The new g-v-c is
effectively a completely different application, it doesn't count as
'upstream' for the old g-v-c any more. I don't think you'd be accepting
patches for the *old* g-v-c into the *new* one :)

gnome-alsamixer exists as a module in GNOME git. Hence if we're correct
in identifying a demand for a full-access mixer in GNOME,
gnome-alsamixer is in fact the project which could more easily be
resurrected as a proper upstream application. It'd be rather hard to do
that for the old g-v-c - it would have to be changed to be identified as
something completely different from the *new* g-v-c.

I'm not particularly attached to this logic, though. If everyone agrees
the old g-v-c is the way to go I'm fine with that, as I said all I
really wanted is a full-access mixer in the default install.
-- 
Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
Red Hat



From awilliam at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 06:26:48 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:26:48 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <6d959d480904241939h1ff3e339rc18999cea848c8b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240614299.3955.265.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<6d959d480904241939h1ff3e339rc18999cea848c8b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240640808.3011.13.camel@vaio.local.net>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 04:39 +0200, R?my Maucherat wrote:

> Reading the IRC log, the Fesco members technical arguments sound
> limited, and do focus on legacy use cases. That's really 10 years old
> stuff (CD line in - PC speaker was mentioned too - unused for me in
> that timeframe ...), so if this does not represent less than 5% of
> users, I wonder what will.

The significant use case that is not currently covered - the one I'm
really worried about - is what I refer to consistently (here and in the
meeting) as 'input switching'. The new g-v-c has no way to select the
input device. If the default does not happen to be the one you actually
want to record from, you're stuck. The rest of the cases discussed have
really been either bugs or corner cases and I'm not too concerned about
those, the bugs will be fixed and we shouldn't worry about corner cases
too much. Input switching is the biggie, and it is not a 'legacy use
case', it is half of the functionality of any sound adapter.

Lennart has acknowledged this as a missing feature that will be added in
the F12 timeframe, which is why I've already said that as long as that
happens - and most of the 'the slider doesn't really control my volume'
bugs are fixed - I'd be happy for the alternative mixer not to be
installed by default from F12 on.

> where breakage is well
> accepted on the graphics side, not so on the sound side it seems.

Breakage should never be accepted where there's a sensible and low-cost
alternative.
-- 
Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
Red Hat



From airlied at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 06:59:46 2009
From: airlied at redhat.com (Dave Airlie)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:59:46 +1000
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240640577.3011.9.camel@vaio.local.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
	<1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240640577.3011.9.camel@vaio.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240642786.26274.288.camel@localhost>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 23:22 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 03:09 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> 
> > FYI, Adam didn't revive the old mixer (that is still in gnome-media, but
> > disabled), he revived gnome-alsamixer, another GNOME ALSA mixer with no
> > upstream.
> 
> It does have one; it's part of GNOME's git. The git checkout command is
> included as a comment right at the top of the spec.
> 
> > The URL mentioned in the spec file[1] says:
> > "The page cannot be found"
> 
> Sorry, I'll adjust that.
> 
> > If the thing is going to get installed by default, you should at _least_
> > package up the old gnome-volume-control. Otherwise, yes, I'll be a pain
> > and drag this to the board.
> 
> My thinking on that is explained in the bug report. I'd say the old
> g-v-c has less of an upstream, because the old g-v-c effectively doesn't
> exist anywhere except in history. Where could it get developed in
> future, if we wanted to push some changes upstream? The new g-v-c is
> effectively a completely different application, it doesn't count as
> 'upstream' for the old g-v-c any more. I don't think you'd be accepting
> patches for the *old* g-v-c into the *new* one :)
> 
> gnome-alsamixer exists as a module in GNOME git. Hence if we're correct
> in identifying a demand for a full-access mixer in GNOME,
> gnome-alsamixer is in fact the project which could more easily be
> resurrected as a proper upstream application. It'd be rather hard to do
> that for the old g-v-c - it would have to be changed to be identified as
> something completely different from the *new* g-v-c.
> 
> I'm not particularly attached to this logic, though. If everyone agrees
> the old g-v-c is the way to go I'm fine with that, as I said all I
> really wanted is a full-access mixer in the default install.

I took a quick look at this, and gnome-media has the code moved to the
gst-mixer subdir, but thats it, the code still believes its called
g-v-c, all the files are called that, the gconf schema keys, the
desktop, etc.

So I suspect the effort to do that vs ship gnome-alsamixer at this point
in the development cycle isn't going to provide any useful advantages to
the advanced sound configuration people are requiring. Like it the
answer to the question is otherwise run a cli app called alsamixer, I'd
ship a kde app quicker :)

Dave.




From mcepl at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 07:49:19 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:49:19 +0200
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<16de708d0904231429o69b8a5bdiae5732651332ebd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090423231241.GA7720@bludgeon.org>
	<200904241305.52793.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <vsrac6-pc2.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-24, 12:05 GMT, Bill Crawford wrote:
> On Friday 24 April 2009 00:12:41 Ray Van Dolson wrote:
>
>> Don't know how much of the time is spent doing JavaScript or generating
>> the huge list of components...
Huge list of components has not been generated per default for 
couple of months already.

Matej



From drago01 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 08:47:37 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 10:47:37 +0200
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com> <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost> <49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
	<1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904250147nf875b32med53836f0d52b5c7@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 4:09 AM, Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 18:48 -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote:
> <snip>

> If the thing is going to get installed by default, you should at _least_
> package up the old gnome-volume-control.

This would make the user experience _worse_ for people updating from
F9/10  -> F11 as they won't have the new mixer unless they install it
by hand.



From bnocera at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 12:46:54 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:46:54 +0100
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240640577.3011.9.camel@vaio.local.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
	<1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240640577.3011.9.camel@vaio.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240663614.5037.1654.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 23:22 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 03:09 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> 
> > FYI, Adam didn't revive the old mixer (that is still in gnome-media, but
> > disabled), he revived gnome-alsamixer, another GNOME ALSA mixer with no
> > upstream.
> 
> It does have one; it's part of GNOME's git. The git checkout command is
> included as a comment right at the top of the spec.

Oh, code is available. Last code check-in was 4 years ago:
http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gnome-alsamixer/tree/ChangeLog

> > The URL mentioned in the spec file[1] says:
> > "The page cannot be found"
> 
> Sorry, I'll adjust that.
> 
> > If the thing is going to get installed by default, you should at _least_
> > package up the old gnome-volume-control. Otherwise, yes, I'll be a pain
> > and drag this to the board.
> 
> My thinking on that is explained in the bug report. I'd say the old
> g-v-c has less of an upstream, because the old g-v-c effectively doesn't
> exist anywhere except in history.

It's in the gst-mixer sub-dir of gnome-media:
http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gnome-media/tree/gst-mixer

It's still the volume control for systems that don't have PulseAudio
like Solaris or *BSDs.

>  Where could it get developed in
> future, if we wanted to push some changes upstream? The new g-v-c is
> effectively a completely different application, it doesn't count as
> 'upstream' for the old g-v-c any more. I don't think you'd be accepting
> patches for the *old* g-v-c into the *new* one :)

No, but Brian Cameron is maintaining the old gnome-volume-control.

> gnome-alsamixer exists as a module in GNOME git. Hence if we're correct
> in identifying a demand for a full-access mixer in GNOME,
> gnome-alsamixer is in fact the project which could more easily be
> resurrected as a proper upstream application. It'd be rather hard to do
> that for the old g-v-c - it would have to be changed to be identified as
> something completely different from the *new* g-v-c.
> 
> I'm not particularly attached to this logic, though. If everyone agrees
> the old g-v-c is the way to go I'm fine with that, as I said all I
> really wanted is a full-access mixer in the default install.
> -- 
> Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
> Red Hat
> 



From joost at cnoc.nl  Sat Apr 25 13:53:48 2009
From: joost at cnoc.nl (Joost van der Sluis)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:53:48 +0200
Subject: Problem with build-id and cycling the free pascal compiler
Message-ID: <1240667628.31161.14.camel@wsjoost>

Building the free pascal compiler (package fpc) fails due to a
build-id/ld problem.

The compiler builds itself, using an older version of the compiler. Then
the compiler which is just build is used to build the same compiler
again. This iterative process continues until the generated binary and
the compiler-binary are the same. (It's called cylcling a compiler, most
compilers who can compile themselves use this technique)

But on F11/rawhide the two binaries never become the same, because they
all get a different build-id. On F10 this problen never occured, though.

According to the ld-manpage the build-id is the same when all the
object-files are exactly the same. But I think that isn't the case. I
tried --build-id=md5 and --build-id=sha1, both fail.

Any ideas how to fix this? Adding --build-id=none is a solution, but
then the rpm contains a binary without build-id. 

Any other ideas? Is this maybe a ld-bug, or is it intentional?

Joost.






From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 14:44:47 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:44:47 +0100
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <vsrac6-pc2.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<200904241305.52793.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<vsrac6-pc2.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <200904251544.47459.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Saturday 25 April 2009 08:49:19 Matej Cepl wrote:
> On 2009-04-24, 12:05 GMT, Bill Crawford wrote:
> > On Friday 24 April 2009 00:12:41 Ray Van Dolson wrote:
> >> Don't know how much of the time is spent doing JavaScript or generating
> >> the huge list of components...
>
> Huge list of components has not been generated per default for
> couple of months already.

Erm ... where's this big list selector "Component" coming from, then?

> Matej




From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 14:46:27 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:46:27 +0100
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <vsrac6-pc2.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<200904241305.52793.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<vsrac6-pc2.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <200904251546.27736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Saturday 25 April 2009 08:49:19 Matej Cepl wrote:

> Huge list of components has not been generated per default for
> couple of months already.

Sorry, forgot screenshot (can't remember if the list allows them; you should see 
it on the Cc: anyway.
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From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Sat Apr 25 14:46:50 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:46:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090425 changes
Message-ID: <20090425144651.8228A1B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Sat Apr 25 06:15:03 UTC 2009

Updated Packages:

PackageKit-0.4.6-8.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 0.4.6-8
- Backport a patch from upstream to stop refresh-packagekit from running
  when the script is running under PackageKit. This fixes the bug where
  the update icon displays the wrong number of updates if all the updates
  are applied, and only affects the yum backend.
- The full problem and solution is described in #492005

* Thu Apr 23 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 0.4.6-7
- Backport a patch from upstream to disallow SIGKILL when using the yum
  backend. This is recommended by Panu. Should fix #495087

* Wed Apr 22 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 0.4.6-6
- Send ::Package(finished) when we've finished downloading a file rather than
  relying for the daemon to clean up for us.
- Fixes #496787

* Tue Apr 21 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 0.4.6-5
- Rework one of the Presto patches so that it works with multiple packages.


gnome-power-manager-2.26.1-2.fc11
---------------------------------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2
- Backport a patch from upstream that was missed for 2.26.1 that fixes
  the DPMS timeout slider in gnome-power-preferences.

* Tue Apr 21 2009 Richard Hughes  <rhughes at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-1
- Update to 2.26.1
- Fix the low capacity warning to fix rh#489832
- Backport DPMS and IDLETIME fixes from master to fix multiple bugs
- Connect to gnome-session and exit on logout
- Remove upstreamed patches


gnome-python2-desktop-2.26.0-3.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 2.26.0-3
- Fixed cd-burner subpackage Require to use libs package

* Wed Apr 22 2009 Matthew Barnes <mbarnes at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-2.fc11
- Rebuild against newer libnautilus-burn.


gnote-0.2.0-2.fc11
------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Rahul Sundaram <sundaram at fedoraproject.org> - 0.2.0-2
- enable spell checker


gwibber-0.9.1-2.288bzr.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com> - 1:0.9.1-2.288bzr
- Update to r288, gwibber will now scroll back to where it was before a refresh
- Fix bugzilla.redhat.com/497108, add Requires: python-mako
- Version number is actually 0.9.1 now (multiple branch switches on my part are at fault), add Epoch


ibus-1.1.0.20090423-1.fc11
--------------------------
* Thu Apr 23 2009 Huang Peng <shawn.p.huang at gmail.com> - 1.1.0.20090423-1
- Update to ibus-1.1.0.20090423.
- Fix bug 497265 -  [mai_IN] Maithili language name is not correct.
- Fix bug 497279 -  IBus does not works with evolution correctly.
- Enhance authentication both in daemon & clients


itext-2.1.5-2.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 2.1.5-2
- Patch to allow reading of pdf files from stdin for pdftk (BZ #495574)


kdelibs-4.2.2-12.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.2.2-12
- drop the PopupApplet configuration backports (#495998) for now, kconf_update
  does not work as expected for Plasma

* Thu Apr 23 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.2.2-10
- fix the kconf_update scriptlet for #495998 (broken .upd syntax)

* Thu Apr 23 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> - 4.2.2-11
- fix the kconf_update scriptlet for #495998 again (missing DELETEGROUP)


pdftk-1.41-17.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 1.41-16
- Remove stdin patch, add Req. to modified iText release (BZ #495574)

* Tue Apr 21 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 1.41-17
- Bump release number


pm-utils-1.2.5-2.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Richard Hughes <rhughes at redhat.com> - 1.2.5-2
- Backport a patch from upstream to fix resume using KMS on 855GM.
- Fixes #496026


prelude-manager-0.9.14.2-3.fc11
-------------------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Steve Grubb <sgrubb at redhat.com> 0.9.14.2-3
- Adjusted permissions on dirs and conf files


udev-141-3.fc11
---------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Harald Hoyer <harald at redhat.com> 141-3
- cdrom_id: add and use ID_CDROM_MEDIA to decide if we run vol_id
  (bug #496298)
- Resolves: rhbz#496298


xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.2-6.fc11
------------------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.2-6
- rs690: fix clamps patch so it doesn't break other cards

* Thu Apr 23 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.2-5
- rs690: fix crashing when firefox or gimp is used


Summary:
Added Packages: 0
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 13
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.i386 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.x86_64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)





From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 16:08:47 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:08:47 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <200904251708.47572.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Friday 24 April 2009 19:03:26 Adam Williamson wrote:
> So, in the spirit of light rather than heat, here's my proposal, again,
> rescued from the depths of the flamefest, with some actual work
> attached.
>
> g-v-c is clearly intending to be an abstracted and simplified volume
> control app / applet to cover the most common use cases in a friendly
> way. Great.
>
> It's clear, though, that some users have needs beyond this
[sniip]
> So my proposal is that we include by default an alternative GUI app
> which allows direct access to the mixer channels
[snip]
> So I suggest what we should do is resurrect gnome-alsamixer
[snip]
> I just pulled the latest code out of git and threw together a package
[snip]
> The package is available here:
> http://adamwill.fedorapeople.org/gnome-alsamixer/ (the SRPM, spec file,
> and an x86-64 build for current Rawhide). Please take a look at it if
> you're interested.

Wow, that's the positivest response ...

Sorry for generating a little of the heat you mentioned.

> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
> http://www.happyassassin.net

Where do I send these kudos?



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 16:14:07 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:14:07 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <6d959d480904241939h1ff3e339rc18999cea848c8b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<6d959d480904241939h1ff3e339rc18999cea848c8b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904251714.07573.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Saturday 25 April 2009 03:39:43 R?my Maucherat wrote:

> Reading the IRC log, the Fesco members technical arguments sound
> limited, and do focus on legacy use cases. That's really 10 years old
> stuff (CD line in - PC speaker was mentioned too - unused for me in
> that timeframe ...), so if this does not represent less than 5% of
> users, I wonder what will.

This is one of the most annoying attitudes throughout this debate. I still use a 
CD line-in on my soundcard. It might be "10 years old" stuff ... my sound card 
is 7 years old. But it *still works* ... why should I not use it?



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 16:24:53 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:24:53 +0100
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F275B1.8040900@gmail.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com> <49F275B1.8040900@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904251724.53950.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Saturday 25 April 2009 03:30:09 Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
...
> What's really involved in compromise is how far each party moves from
> their original positions from the beginning of the process:

Which, when one side is in a stubborn position, created by their own extreme 
desire to dictate what is considered "normal" use, leads to a still-distorted 
result which is not "in the middle" but still "dragged to one side a bit".

The idea here was to *accommodate* the *minority* by providing something 
*different* for them because Bastien, Lennart and others are unwilling to cater 
for them.

Since they don't want to cater to this minority, what's done to help the 
minority should not be putting their [B & L's] noses out of joint.



From sandeen at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 16:25:26 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 11:25:26 -0500
Subject: an interface for filesystem preallocation that doesn't suck?
In-Reply-To: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>
References: <7D9656C86DDA8F0DA017F7CB@shieldbreaker.sei.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <49F33976.1020800@redhat.com>

James Ralston wrote:
> Now that ext4 is the default filesystem, it would be nice to see more
> programs taking advantage of its preallocation features.

Just FWIW, I ran a scan of an x86_64 rawhide install to see which
executables & libraries are using these interfaces now; it's not a very
long list:

[root at host /mnt/test/F11]# ../summarize_falloc.pl usr/bin usr/sbin bin
sbin usr/lib usr/lib64
usr/bin/transmission-daemon uses fallocate
usr/bin/transmissioncli uses fallocate
usr/bin/transmission-remote uses fallocate
usr/bin/aria2c uses posix_fallocate
usr/bin/transmission uses fallocate
usr/sbin/nscd uses posix_fallocate
usr/lib64/libvirt.so.0 uses posix_fallocate
usr/lib64/libvirt.so.0.6.2 uses posix_fallocate
usr/lib64/libMonoPosixHelper.so uses posix_fallocate
usr/lib64/libvirt.so uses posix_fallocate

 249105 85.5% are scripts (shell, perl, whatever)
  42149 14.5% don't use any fallocate() family calls at all
      6  0.0% use posix_fallocate() interfaces only
      4  0.0% use fallocate() interfaces only


It might be nice to document how these apps actually use the interfaces
though, so people can take advantage of them.  For example, it's a
fairly obscure config option for transmission, IIRC.

...

> Additionally, the semantics that result from using fallocate() with
> FALLOC_FL_KEEP_SIZE (which posix_fallocate() does NOT do) are arguably
> more intuitive, because FALLOC_FL_KEEP_SIZE (essentially) creates a
> sparse file:
> 
> $ fallocate-test foo $[1024*1024*512] && ls -lsa foo
> fallocate-test: allocating 536870912 bytes for new file foo
> 524292 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 2009-04-02 13:59 foo

Just a nitpick; this isn't really a sparse file (depending on what your
test does) - the blocks really and truly are allocated to it, there are
no holes.  The blocks just happen to be allocated past EOF.  :)

-Eric



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 16:26:56 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:26:56 +0100
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090425012653.GB32162@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<20090425012653.GB32162@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <200904251726.56894.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Saturday 25 April 2009 02:26:53 Lennart Poettering wrote:

> To state this clearly: I did _not_ agree with this 'compromise'. I
> think shipping two mixers like this by default is a bad decision, and
> I am pretty sure that the big majority of the desktop group is with me
> on that.

In other words, if you think it's not worth supporting people whose needs are 
different to yours, you think it's wrong they be supported at all.

Thanks ...

> In summary: well done!

Quite.



From remy.maucherat at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 16:34:25 2009
From: remy.maucherat at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9my_Maucherat?=)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 18:34:25 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <200904251714.07573.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<6d959d480904241939h1ff3e339rc18999cea848c8b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904251714.07573.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6d959d480904250934h1fb12465ue60b55866d4a188c@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Bill Crawford
<billcrawford1970 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday 25 April 2009 03:39:43 R?my Maucherat wrote:
>
>> Reading the IRC log, the Fesco members technical arguments sound
>> limited, and do focus on legacy use cases. That's really 10 years old
>> stuff (CD line in - PC speaker was mentioned too - unused for me in
>> that timeframe ...), so if this does not represent less than 5% of
>> users, I wonder what will.
>
> This is one of the most annoying attitudes throughout this debate. I still use a
> CD line-in on my soundcard. It might be "10 years old" stuff ... my sound card
> is 7 years old. But it *still works* ... why should I not use it?

- one less cable
- much lower quality
- newer readers do not have that output anymore

R?my



From felix at fetzig.org  Sat Apr 25 17:02:50 2009
From: felix at fetzig.org (Felix Kaechele)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:02:50 +0200
Subject: just lost my pipe
In-Reply-To: <1240593824.2536.8.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240593824.2536.8.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <49F3423A.3050802@fetzig.org>

Am 24.04.2009 19:23, schrieb Christoph H?ger:
> as you might know, on german keyboards, the | symbol is created by
> pressing AltGr and the key right to the shift key.
> In my last session on my f11 thinkpad (r61) I just lost that symbol.

Well for me this happens after resuming my T61p from suspend. However I 
lost ALL of my AltGr related symbols. (Try writing an E-Mail without the 
@ or write a spec without the {}),
I fixed this by deactivating ibus and setting
export XMODIFIERS="XIM"
in my .bashrc.

I wasn't able to track the problem down to it's real root however.

Also check this bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493650

Felix



From stickster at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 17:24:34 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:24:34 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090425172434.GE12588@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 05:45:01PM -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> Christopher Aillon wrote:
> > and why this decree should not be reversed?
> 
> In today's voting, FESCo as a whole refused to micromanage the desktop
> SIG into changing existing UI.  This isn't because they changed their
> minds about the ideal state of mixers in Fedora 11 but because they saw
> that when you disagree with people that you delegate power to you have
> to work with the other party to accommodate both your interests and theirs.
> 
> If the Board wants to reverse the decision of what goes onto a spin by
> default they can because they are the source of FESCo's authority on
> technical matters.  But that means that they're taking away all of the
> authority that they've given FESCo for technical matters with no
> compromise which is a very different thing than what occurred between
> FESCo and the Desktop SIG at today's meeting.

I guess I'm unclear on why the gnome-alsamixer isn't being introduced
as a specific addition to %packages in the DVD kickstart file.  Then
the Desktop Live image would retain the characteristics designed by
the Desktop SIG.

That Live image is designed, AIUI, to go into the hands of a novice
who's looking for the Desktop SIG's idea of a Fedora Desktop.  On the
other hand, anyone who's looking for twiddly bits like those found in
the gnome-alsamixer (and they're perfectly justified in that desire)
are typically going to download the Installation DVD because they want
more choices in software to begin with.

So to me, the ideal compromise is for the Installation DVD to install
the gnome-alsamixer by default and have it in the menu, and for the
Desktop Live image not to bother.  Does that not solve the problem in
a less contentious way?

> > Do I really need to bring this up at the next board meeting?
> > 
> That's a very strange question as only you know what you have to do.  If
> you are asking whether FESCo wants you to do so I'm afraid I'm not on
> FESCo so I can't answer.

To be very clear, the above is just my input as a long-time Fedora
contributor.  But if this escalates to the Board, in all honesty it
would still be my position.

I think FESCo is doing the right thing by including something that
will work for the large number of users we have who are natural
bit-twiddlers, and require functionality beyond what the
drivers/hardware currently make available to PA.  But I also think the
Desktop SIG ought to be able to make a Desktop Spin that represents
their vision.  In fact, that's something we've asked for at, e.g., the
recent FUDCon in Boston last January.

So again, I propose adding gnome-alsamixer to the %packages in
Installation DVD kickstart, and leave the Desktop Live CD as-is.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 17:30:34 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 10:30:34 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240663614.5037.1654.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
	<1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240640577.3011.9.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240663614.5037.1654.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240680634.11465.2.camel@vaio.local.net>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 13:46 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
>  
> > It does have one; it's part of GNOME's git. The git checkout command is
> > included as a comment right at the top of the spec.

> Oh, code is available. Last code check-in was 4 years ago:
> http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gnome-alsamixer/tree/ChangeLog

Oh, yeah - I did look at the last checkin dates but didn't notice they
were all translations.

> > My thinking on that is explained in the bug report. I'd say the old
> > g-v-c has less of an upstream, because the old g-v-c effectively doesn't
> > exist anywhere except in history.
> 
> It's in the gst-mixer sub-dir of gnome-media:
> http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gnome-media/tree/gst-mixer
> 
> It's still the volume control for systems that don't have PulseAudio
> like Solaris or *BSDs.
> 
> >  Where could it get developed in
> > future, if we wanted to push some changes upstream? The new g-v-c is
> > effectively a completely different application, it doesn't count as
> > 'upstream' for the old g-v-c any more. I don't think you'd be accepting
> > patches for the *old* g-v-c into the *new* one :)
> 
> No, but Brian Cameron is maintaining the old gnome-volume-control.

Those are all good points - as long as the issues Dave Airlie brought up
(about how it still identifies itself as g-v-c and hence would
presumably conflict if both were installed at once) are addressed, I'm
perfectly happy for the old g-v-c to be used instead. Should we start
filing bugs for Brian?
-- 
Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
Red Hat



From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Sat Apr 25 17:35:40 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:35:40 +0200
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <gst6c0$77f$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com> <49E379FE.8000007@hhs.nl>
	<gst6c0$77f$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49F349EC.9070806@hhs.nl>

On 04/24/2009 10:10 PM, Pavel Alexeev (aka Pahan-Hubbitus) wrote:
> Hans de Goede ?????:
>> On 04/13/2009 07:23 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>> A few more newly orphaned packages that need homes:
>>>
>>> funionfs:
>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/funionfs
>>>
>>> giflib:
>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/giflib
>>>
>>> ImageMagick:
>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/ImageMagick
>>>
>>> libmng:
>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/libmng
>>>
>>> Please pick them up for Fedora 10 and Devel. As an added bonus, all of
>>> these packages have already been updated to their latest versions in
>>> rawhide.
>>>
>>
>> I'm glad to hear that nmurray has orphaned them, this gives a much better
>> representation of the state they have actually been in for the last 2
>> years
>> atleast. As I've been taking care of ImageMagick during this time,
>> I'll take
>> official ownership now. Co-maintainers much welcome, and if someone else
>> wants it all together just say the word!
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Hans
>>
> I'll want co-maintain ImageMagick if you have not objections.
>

No objections, I'll grant you the rights you've requested.

Regards,

Hans



From awilliam at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 17:37:57 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 10:37:57 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090425172434.GE12588@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<20090425172434.GE12588@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240681077.11465.9.camel@vaio.local.net>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 13:24 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:

> I guess I'm unclear on why the gnome-alsamixer isn't being introduced
> as a specific addition to %packages in the DVD kickstart file.  Then
> the Desktop Live image would retain the characteristics designed by
> the Desktop SIG.
> 
> That Live image is designed, AIUI, to go into the hands of a novice
> who's looking for the Desktop SIG's idea of a Fedora Desktop.  On the
> other hand, anyone who's looking for twiddly bits like those found in
> the gnome-alsamixer (and they're perfectly justified in that desire)
> are typically going to download the Installation DVD because they want
> more choices in software to begin with.
> 
> So to me, the ideal compromise is for the Installation DVD to install
> the gnome-alsamixer by default and have it in the menu, and for the
> Desktop Live image not to bother.  Does that not solve the problem in
> a less contentious way?

> I think FESCo is doing the right thing by including something that
> will work for the large number of users we have who are natural
> bit-twiddlers, and require functionality beyond what the
> drivers/hardware currently make available to PA.  But I also think the
> Desktop SIG ought to be able to make a Desktop Spin that represents
> their vision.  In fact, that's something we've asked for at, e.g., the
> recent FUDCon in Boston last January.
> 
> So again, I propose adding gnome-alsamixer to the %packages in
> Installation DVD kickstart, and leave the Desktop Live CD as-is.

I'd be against this just because the problematic use case is so basic.
This is not for 'natural bit-twiddlers', it's for just about anyone who
wants to take any kind of sound from an external source. This is
something regular users do all the time. I know this, I spend time in
forums. People want to record old records or audio tapes or from the
radio to file, they want to use VOIP, there's a zillion uses for this.
"I want input from Mic 2 instead of Mic 1" or "I want input from line-in
instead of Mic 1" is not a bit-twiddling use case, it's an amazingly
basic function that many many people expect to work.

Windows isn't any kind of guide to good UI, but it's worth noting what
Windows does, just because it's what people expect: Windows has a
notification tray applet which just gives you a simple slider (a la the
new g-v-c), but from the right-click menu, you can launch the Windows
'advanced' mixer with access to all the mixer elements (a la this
proposal). Again, I'm not saying 'because Windows does it it's the best
way to do things and we should do it too', that's clearly nuts, but I
have personally seen dozens of people - not 'bit twiddlers', just
regular people with regular needs - use this application. I think you're
maybe just underestimating the level of need for this.

In the initial bug report related to this discussion I've pointed up a
forum thread where several people thanked me for the alsamixer -c0
trick. That's just people running F11 beta who happened to find that
forum thread. Multiply that out to everyone who tries F11 final...

and the problem came up at least five separate times across this list
and fedora-test-list too. There are clearly many many people who *need*
access to this functionality. It's not just bit-twiddlers.
-- 
Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
Red Hat



From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Sat Apr 25 18:05:12 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 20:05:12 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49F350D8.5090600@hhs.nl>

On 04/24/2009 08:03 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> So, in the spirit of light rather than heat, here's my proposal, again,
> rescued from the depths of the flamefest, with some actual work
> attached.
>
> g-v-c is clearly intending to be an abstracted and simplified volume
> control app / applet to cover the most common use cases in a friendly
> way. Great.
>
> It's clear, though, that some users have needs beyond this, which are
> likely only going to be satisfied in a sensible way by access direct to
> the ALSA mixer elements. Bastien and Lennart don't want some kind of
> hack to expose these via g-v-c, and I'd tend to agree, that's clearly
> not what it's designed for.
>
> So my proposal is that we include by default an alternative GUI app
> which allows direct access to the mixer channels. This won't be an
> applet or anything else persistent, just an application that you can
> choose to run if you need that level of access. Basically the same as
> Lennart's "just use alsamixer" suggestion, only a GUI app that will be
> more discoverable and easier for most people to use (it's a bit tricky
> to figure out 'alsamixer -c0 -Vcapture', for instance).
>
> At first I suggested including the XFCE mixer for this purpose, but now
> that feels a bit awkward. It's really part of XFCE, its menu entry is
> just named 'Mixer' and renaming it to something appropriate for GNOME
> might not be appropriate for XFCE. And it has a slightly odd interface
> rather than the 'immediate screenful o' sliders' that people are used to
> from the old g-v-c.
>
> So I suggest what we should do is resurrect gnome-alsamixer. It's still
> technically part of GNOME - it's even got moved to the new GNOME git.
> Other distributions still package it (Debian, for e.g.) It's even had a
> few commits within the last year or so. It was more or less deprecated
> in favour of g-v-c, but now we have a case where it may make sense to
> have two clearly differentiated apps, and gnome-alsamixer is the obvious
> choice.
>
> I just pulled the latest code out of git and threw together a package
> (based on the spec from Mandriva, since I had it lying around). It
> builds and works fine - you get the kind of interface most people will
> be expected, a tabbed window with each of your available output devices
> on a tab, and the typical 'bunch o' sliders' layout for each device. In
> the package I've added a menu entry with the name "Advanced Volume
> Control" and the comment "Full hardware access volume control
> application".
>
> The package is available here:
> http://adamwill.fedorapeople.org/gnome-alsamixer/ (the SRPM, spec file,
> and an x86-64 build for current Rawhide). Please take a look at it if
> you're interested.
>
> Just to reinforce this, gnome-alsamixer shouldn't interfere with Pulse
> or g-v-c at all; it doesn't run persistently, it doesn't mess anything
> up in gconf or anywhere else that would affect those. All it does is let
> you poke the raw mixer elements, just like alsamixer only graphically.
>
> I know the GNOME folks are generally opposed to having two apps that do
> 'the same thing', but it's very clear from the long threads on this list
> and elsewhere that g-v-c really doesn't do the things that many people
> need it to do as of yet. If we ship with just g-v-c as a graphical
> 'mixer' available by default we will wind up telling many many people to
> drop to a console and use alsamixer - and annoying a lot more people who
> don't ask, find the release notes, or figure out how to use alsamixer on
> their own. I really don't see how providing an alternative graphical
> mixer app is worse than that.


This gets a big +1 from me!

Regards,

Hans



From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl  Sat Apr 25 18:13:44 2009
From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 20:13:44 +0200
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <gst6c0$77f$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com> <49E379FE.8000007@hhs.nl>
	<gst6c0$77f$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49F352D8.7030704@hhs.nl>

On 04/24/2009 10:10 PM, Pavel Alexeev (aka Pahan-Hubbitus) wrote:
> Hans de Goede ?????:
>> On 04/13/2009 07:23 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>> A few more newly orphaned packages that need homes:
>>>
>>> funionfs:
>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/funionfs
>>>
>>> giflib:
>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/giflib
>>>
>>> ImageMagick:
>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/ImageMagick
>>>
>>> libmng:
>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/libmng
>>>
>>> Please pick them up for Fedora 10 and Devel. As an added bonus, all of
>>> these packages have already been updated to their latest versions in
>>> rawhide.
>>>
>>
>> I'm glad to hear that nmurray has orphaned them, this gives a much better
>> representation of the state they have actually been in for the last 2
>> years
>> atleast. As I've been taking care of ImageMagick during this time,
>> I'll take
>> official ownership now. Co-maintainers much welcome, and if someone else
>> wants it all together just say the word!
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Hans
>>
> I'll want co-maintain ImageMagick if you have not objections.
>

p.s.

You probably also want rights for devel, that is were all ImageMagick changes
should primarily be done (and then copied back to older branches as necessary)

Regards,

Hans



From forum at ru.bir.ru  Sat Apr 25 18:27:22 2009
From: forum at ru.bir.ru (Pavel Alexeev (aka Pahan-Hubbitus))
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:27:22 +0400
Subject: More orphaned packages that need homes
In-Reply-To: <49F352D8.7030704@hhs.nl>
References: <49E37529.7030909@redhat.com>
	<49E379FE.8000007@hhs.nl>	<gst6c0$77f$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<49F352D8.7030704@hhs.nl>
Message-ID: <gsvm02$t3s$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hans de Goede ?????:
> On 04/24/2009 10:10 PM, Pavel Alexeev (aka Pahan-Hubbitus) wrote:
>> Hans de Goede ?????:
>>> On 04/13/2009 07:23 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>>>> A few more newly orphaned packages that need homes:
>>>>
>>>> funionfs:
>>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/funionfs
>>>>
>>>> giflib:
>>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/giflib
>>>>
>>>> ImageMagick:
>>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/ImageMagick
>>>>
>>>> libmng:
>>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/libmng
>>>>
>>>> Please pick them up for Fedora 10 and Devel. As an added bonus, all of
>>>> these packages have already been updated to their latest versions in
>>>> rawhide.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm glad to hear that nmurray has orphaned them, this gives a much 
>>> better
>>> representation of the state they have actually been in for the last 2
>>> years
>>> atleast. As I've been taking care of ImageMagick during this time,
>>> I'll take
>>> official ownership now. Co-maintainers much welcome, and if someone else
>>> wants it all together just say the word!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Hans
>>>
>> I'll want co-maintain ImageMagick if you have not objections.
>>
> 
> p.s.
> 
> You probably also want rights for devel, that is were all ImageMagick 
> changes
> should primarily be done (and then copied back to older branches as 
> necessary)

Upps. The main branch I forgot :) Sorry. I have submit for it now.



From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 25 19:25:26 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:25:26 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240687526.5771.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 11:03 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> So, in the spirit of light rather than heat, here's my proposal, again,
> rescued from the depths of the flamefest, with some actual work
> attached.
> 
> g-v-c is clearly intending to be an abstracted and simplified volume
> control app / applet to cover the most common use cases in a friendly
> way. Great.
> 
> It's clear, though, that some users have needs beyond this, which are
> likely only going to be satisfied in a sensible way by access direct to
> the ALSA mixer elements. Bastien and Lennart don't want some kind of
> hack to expose these via g-v-c, and I'd tend to agree, that's clearly
> not what it's designed for.

Hello, Hi! It's me, the foul-mouthed purveyor of said infamous thread.

Just so we're clear, my irritation has nothing to do with mixer
applications. I'm perfectly happy firing up alsamixer in a terminal if I
need raw access to ALSA mixer. In fact, I found the "classic" GNOME
mixer completely useless, as it hid from me any and all numbers
indicating what anything is actually set to. At least throw me a bone
and give me a percentage. (Actual dB readings? I've died and gone to
heaven!)

No, I am concerned purely with the panel applet. I want to place my
mouse cursor over the speaker icon on the panel, and roll the scroll
wheel to adjust the PCM level. Whatever it takes to do that, I don't
care.

(Though I also don't want in-application volume sliders screwing with
master either. So at the very least, flat volumes are out...)

I'd also like keyboard volume buttons to do likewise, but this
particular machine has a vintage 1986 IBM Model M on it so the panel
applet just works out better...

> So my proposal is that we include by default an alternative GUI app
> which allows direct access to the mixer channels. This won't be an
> applet or anything else persistent, just an application that you can
> choose to run if you need that level of access.

This does absolutely nothing to address my concerns.

> So I suggest what we should do is resurrect gnome-alsamixer. It's still
> technically part of GNOME - it's even got moved to the new GNOME git.
> Other distributions still package it (Debian, for e.g.) It's even had a
> few commits within the last year or so. It was more or less deprecated
> in favour of g-v-c, but now we have a case where it may make sense to
> have two clearly differentiated apps, and gnome-alsamixer is the obvious
> choice.

I want the functionality of the old *panel applet* back. gnome-alsamixer
does absolutely nothing to make me happy.
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From bnocera at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 19:33:40 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 20:33:40 +0100
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240680634.11465.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
	<1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240640577.3011.9.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240663614.5037.1654.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240680634.11465.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240688020.5037.2076.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 10:30 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 13:46 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
<snip>
> Those are all good points - as long as the issues Dave Airlie brought up
> (about how it still identifies itself as g-v-c and hence would
> presumably conflict if both were installed at once) are addressed, I'm
> perfectly happy for the old g-v-c to be used instead. Should we start
> filing bugs for Brian?

Well, you'd need to do a bit of work on the spec file, but there's
nothing there that wouldn't be straight forward.

You'd need to remove all the bits you're not interested about (most of
them should be disable-able through configure switches), rename the
binary (and binary name in the desktop file, and schemas), and change
the GETTEXT_PACKAGE so it doesn't conflict with gnome-media.



From awilliam at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 19:41:36 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 12:41:36 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240688020.5037.2076.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
	<1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240640577.3011.9.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240663614.5037.1654.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240680634.11465.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240688020.5037.2076.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240688496.11465.10.camel@vaio.local.net>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 20:33 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 10:30 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 13:46 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> <snip>
> > Those are all good points - as long as the issues Dave Airlie brought up
> > (about how it still identifies itself as g-v-c and hence would
> > presumably conflict if both were installed at once) are addressed, I'm
> > perfectly happy for the old g-v-c to be used instead. Should we start
> > filing bugs for Brian?
> 
> Well, you'd need to do a bit of work on the spec file, but there's
> nothing there that wouldn't be straight forward.
> 
> You'd need to remove all the bits you're not interested about (most of
> them should be disable-able through configure switches), rename the
> binary (and binary name in the desktop file, and schemas), and change
> the GETTEXT_PACKAGE so it doesn't conflict with gnome-media.

OK. I'll probably be able to look at that Monday, I'll be too busy at
the conference for today and tomorrow.
-- 
Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
Red Hat



From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 25 19:57:13 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:57:13 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240614299.3955.265.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 03:38 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Juggling with numbers like this is pointless in a Free Software. We
> have no clue about our end users.

We have plenty of clues about our end users. It's called "verbal
communication".

> All we have is common sense -- whch
> in this case is not that common apparently.

How exactly are statements like this not insulting and dismissive?

> Apparently dwmw2's dad plus Callum Lerwick are now what we should be
> designing our Linux desktop for. It's very hard to reach 95% of that
> group.

How is this not passive aggressive, and insulting?

Lennart is feeling more and more like another Jeff Johnson.
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From remy.maucherat at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 20:21:39 2009
From: remy.maucherat at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9my_Maucherat?=)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:21:39 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240614299.3955.265.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <6d959d480904251321i77afdad1ve76d0adf7caeab71@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 03:38 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> Juggling with numbers like this is pointless in a Free Software. We
>> have no clue about our end users.
>
> We have plenty of clues about our end users. It's called "verbal
> communication".
>
>> All we have is common sense -- whch
>> in this case is not that common apparently.
>
> How exactly are statements like this not insulting and dismissive?
>
>> Apparently dwmw2's dad plus Callum Lerwick are now what we should be
>> designing our Linux desktop for. It's very hard to reach 95% of that
>> group.
>
> How is this not passive aggressive, and insulting?
>
> Lennart is feeling more and more like another Jeff Johnson.

Why is such developer abuse acceptable of this dev list ? Isn't there
any code of conduct here ? Why don't you go vent off on your blog or
in the Fedora forums ?

R?my



From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 25 21:45:40 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:45:40 -0500
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com> <1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 17:48 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 17:15 -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote:
> 
> > A compromise works best if both parties are on board.  I don't believe 
> > that the desktop guys will object to the package existing and being 
> > installable if people want.  No CLI needed since we have GUI install 
> > tools.  The objection is with the mandate for it to be installed by 
> > default on the desktop live/install spins.
> 
> *All* parties agreed on the compromise during the meeting, including
> those speaking on behalf of the desktop group. Approximate quote (since
> I'm on my laptop and don't have the IRC log handy): "I gave you that if
> it's what's needed to make this issue go away". Not everyone has to be
> 100% happy with a compromise (not everyone on the other side of the
> fence is 100% happy with it either), it just has to be agreed.

Oh dear.

I never agreed to this compromise. I didn't even know about it until
now.

I *almost* attended the FESCo meeting, so I could make sure my concerns
were represented accurately, but thought better of it for fear of just
fanning the flames further, as I wasn't exactly cooled off at the time.
For my own sanity I needed to get away from this mess and cool off. It
seems I made a grave mistake. My concerns have gotten completely lost,
and apparently were never understood by anyone. Reading the FESCo log is
only making my blood boil hotter.

By the way, Hi, I'm the guy with the "line-in play-through" use case.

I already explained why including gnome-alsamixer does nothing to make
me any happier here so I won't repeat it: (don't worry, it's clean)

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg02089.html

My two cents on reverting the VolumeControl feature entirely: Well, I
guess while this would ultimately address my concerns, it is
un-necessarily drastic. It's throwing the baby out with the bath water.
The new gnome-volume-control is a beautiful piece of UI. My only problem
with it is the panel control wasn't doing quite what I wanted. Just the
ability to make one, tiny little change is all I wanted. I want it to
control PCM instead of Master. Since the previous mixer infrastructure
provided UI for making this change, my expectations were that the new
infrastructure would at least continue to provide a hidden option
somewhere for this.

I began my initial thread in an earnest attempt to get some direction as
to how to make this change. I NEVER wanted any visible UI changed. I
never wanted any buttons added. I expected from the *start* to be
messing with some backend settings somewhere, I just needed to know
where they were. After much pain and sorrow, it was revealed there IS a
setting that (supposedly) did what I want. (Though I have not gotten it
to actually work.)

> Not everyone has to be
> 100% happy with a compromise (not everyone on the other side of the
> fence is 100% happy with it either), it just has to be agreed.

A compromise that does absolutely nothing, that is 0%, to address my
concerns is productive how?

Have the concerns of the person that sparked this whole thing become
irrelevant at some point along the way?

This thing has certainly spun far out of my control, and no longer even
has much to do with what I wanted in the first place.
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 21:58:26 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:58:26 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com> <1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240696706.2919.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 16:45 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> A compromise that does absolutely nothing, that is 0%, to address my
> concerns is productive how?
> 
> Have the concerns of the person that sparked this whole thing become
> irrelevant at some point along the way?
> 
> This thing has certainly spun far out of my control, and no longer even
> has much to do with what I wanted in the first place.

Unfortunately it wasn't just your needs we were trying to address in the
meeting.


-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From mcepl at redhat.com  Sat Apr 25 21:45:29 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:45:29 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240592832.8696.1510.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<a2e85ed0904241030r4cf00a75s40670db156416a87@mail.gmail.com>
	<66ec675b0904241055g46fc623ct9330ab456c6ac760@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <psccc6-kta.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-24, 17:55 GMT, Joonas Saraj?rvi wrote:
> Things I like about Pulseaudio:

I got almost a heart attack when Windows 7 Beta (yeah I know, 
I am just curious about our enemy ;-)) in KVM guest machine 
started to play sounds to my speakers! (totally out of the box, 
I did not even know it is possible) Is it possible to do 
something like that without PA?

Matej



From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 25 22:11:56 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:11:56 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <200904241136.05736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<gsnvnk$md9$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240516474.720.147.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904241136.05736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240697516.5771.105.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 11:36 +0100, Bill Crawford wrote:
> On Thursday 23 April 2009 20:54:34 Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 22:46 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > > Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > > > That doesn't make them wrong about OpenID's UI sucking.
> > >
> > > A proprietary Google "standard" "based on OpenID" isn't a solution to
> > > that though.
> >
> > Yes it is a solution. A monopolistic Google only solution, but it's a
> > solution.
> >
> > That's why I'm saying we better come up with an un-biased free solution,
> > and do it fast. Before Google gains ground.
> 
> It is NOT a monopolistic Google-only solution, that's what became clear after 
> actually reading a particular comment *FROM ONE OF THE DESIGNERS OF OpenID* on 
> that blog post.
> 
> About half-way down, quote:
> 
> 
> David Recordon
> Oct. 30th, 2008 at 12:51 am
> 
> Google is taking advantage of a feature in OpenID 2.0 known as "Directed 
> Identity". This allows an OpenID 2.0 Relying Party to start the OpenID protocol 
> flow using a known URL (Yahoo!'s is http://openid.yahoo.com/) to allow for "one 
> click" style login dialogues. By performing discovery on this URL, using the 
> XRDS XML format, the OpenID Provider advertises the OpenID Endpoint URL for the 
> Relying Party to make a request against. Google is doing this correctly with 
> the URL to perform discovery against being 
> https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id.

Say I'm Joe Blow. I run Joe Blow's OpenID Provider off a server in my
house running off a business class cable connection.

I got to LiveJournal, and I want to log in using Joe Blow's OpenID
Provider. How does livejournal.com know to display a "Login using Joe
Blow's OpenID" button without me having to cut and paste or type
anything first? I don't see any way to do it without needing some kind
of interaction with the browser.

I'm not seeing how Directed Identity prevents web sites from having to
hard code every possible OpenID provider. Which will still leave out the
little guys like Joe Blow. THAT is what I mean by monopolistic and
biased.

Near as I can tell Directed Identity does nothing to address this kind
of automated discovery.

> As for using email addresses as OpenIDs, this is something the OpenID
> community is talking about quite a bit right now; Google included.

Having to type in a domain or an email address is NOT an improvement.
This should require NO typing. The user should see no URLs, no domains,
no emails, they should see nothing but a button to click.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 25 22:15:29 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:15:29 -0500
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240696706.2919.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com> <1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240696706.2919.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240697729.5771.108.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 14:58 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 16:45 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > A compromise that does absolutely nothing, that is 0%, to address my
> > concerns is productive how?
> > 
> > Have the concerns of the person that sparked this whole thing become
> > irrelevant at some point along the way?
> > 
> > This thing has certainly spun far out of my control, and no longer even
> > has much to do with what I wanted in the first place.
> 
> Unfortunately it wasn't just your needs we were trying to address in the
> meeting.

Just sayin'. I'm sure not getting anything out of this so far.

Who's needs are we trying to address now? Do they have a name? It feels
like FESCo is trying to address the needs of two straw men at this
point.
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From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sat Apr 25 22:42:18 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 00:42:18 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240614299.3955.265.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090425224218.GA14858@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sat, 25.04.09 14:57, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 03:38 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > Juggling with numbers like this is pointless in Free Software. We
> > have no clue about our end users.
> 
> We have plenty of clues about our end users. It's called "verbal
> communication".

Ah, "verbal communication"? I see, that's what you call saying "Fuck
you" to upstream.

And no, we have no hard numbers about anything our end users want. I
know your hubris and stuff but uh, sorry, in contrast to what you may
believe I don't think that you are representative for the mythical end
user of Fedora. You are just a very very vocal minority.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From pemboa at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 22:44:35 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:44:35 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240697516.5771.105.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<gsnvnk$md9$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240516474.720.147.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904241136.05736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<1240697516.5771.105.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904251544y1f6ee387s80e64080cf71d737@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
>> As for using email addresses as OpenIDs, this is something the OpenID
>> community is talking about quite a bit right now; Google included.
>
> Having to type in a domain or an email address is NOT an improvement

Having a single account over multiple account is an improvement.

> This should require NO typing. The user should see no URLs, no domains,

Why not?

> no emails, they should see nothing but a button to click.

Why not? This is trying to solve the problem of multiple accounts not
laziness. Eventually I'm sure there will be browser extensions to auto
enter your open id info if you can't bare to Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 25 22:49:43 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:49:43 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <psccc6-kta.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240592832.8696.1510.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<a2e85ed0904241030r4cf00a75s40670db156416a87@mail.gmail.com>
	<66ec675b0904241055g46fc623ct9330ab456c6ac760@mail.gmail.com>
	<psccc6-kta.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <1240699783.5771.116.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 23:45 +0200, Matej Cepl wrote:
> On 2009-04-24, 17:55 GMT, Joonas Saraj?rvi wrote:
> > Things I like about Pulseaudio:
> 
> I got almost a heart attack when Windows 7 Beta (yeah I know, 
> I am just curious about our enemy ;-)) in KVM guest machine 
> started to play sounds to my speakers! (totally out of the box, 
> I did not even know it is possible) Is it possible to do 
> something like that without PA?

KVM is based around qemu isn't it? qemu's been able to simulate sound
cards for some time. It'll happily output to ALSA and I think OSS and/or
SDL. Maybe it has native PA support by now.

So no, you don't need PA for that.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Sat Apr 25 23:47:59 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 18:47:59 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090425224218.GA14858@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240614299.3955.265.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090425224218.GA14858@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240703279.5771.171.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 00:42 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Sat, 25.04.09 14:57, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 03:38 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > > Juggling with numbers like this is pointless in Free Software. We
> > > have no clue about our end users.
> > 
> > We have plenty of clues about our end users. It's called "verbal
> > communication".
> 
> Ah, "verbal communication"? I see, that's what you call saying "Fuck
> you" to upstream.

Well, if you insist, let's take another look at that message:

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg01773.html
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg01852.html


On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 01:31 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: 
> On Wed, 22.04.09 14:51, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:
> 
> > > > > >  Can I at least get a secret gconf key to do what
> > > > > > I want? :P

This is the second time I politely ask for some direction as to achieve my goal.

> > > > > The volume control uses PulseAudio, it doesn't use ALSA directly
> > > > > anymore, so no, there's no secret GConf key for that.

Finally, a hint. What I want lies within the PulseAudio daemon itself. I
did not know that until I was told, just now.

> > > > So a PulseAudio config option then. Do I have to write the patch myself?

I continue attempting to get some direction a third time. I start
getting annoyed. I display my willingness to write a patch if necessary.

> > > Probably not a PA config option either.
> > > 
> > > The volume control applet will show a mixer for input devices if an
> > > application is recording on it. You'd just need to make the mixer think
> > > that something is recording on that device. I'm not sure how to do that,
> > > but Lennart might.
> > 
> > No, you are misunderstanding. I don't want to adjust the input volume. I
> > want it left alone. I want the master left alone. Master stays at 0dB,
> > Line stays at 0dB. I want PA to dink with PCM instead of Master.

Still annoyed, and apparently getting misunderstood. Which is annoying.

> You can pass a parameter (control=) when loading the PA ALSA plugin
> (module-alsa-sink) which specifies the ALSA mixer element to
> choose. It's intended to be used as a hackish work-around for drivers
> that don't name their controls properly.

Wow, finally, exactly the information I was looking for. I don't know
your codebase, Lennart. The polite thing to do is guide a fellow coder
through your codebase, that you know, and are familiar with, by
definition. I just wanted your help, Lennart.

... It doesn't work, but I guess the bridge to further guidance is
burned.

> > Let's just reverse that then:
> > 
> > --- pulseaudio-0.9.15/src/modules/alsa/alsa-util.c      2009-04-13 16:11:32.000000000 -0500
> > +++ pulseaudio-0.9.15.patched/src/modules/alsa/alsa-util.c      2009-04-22 14:23:49.367297597 -0500
> > @@ -1180,7 +1180,7 @@
> >              else if (profile)
> >                  e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, profile->playback_control_name, profile->playback_control_fallback, TRUE);
> >              else
> > -                e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, "Master", "PCM", TRUE);
> > +                e = pa_alsa_find_elem(m, "PCM", "Master", TRUE);
> >              break;
> >  
> >          case SND_PCM_STREAM_CAPTURE:

I ATTEMPTED A PATCH! SEE, IT'S RIGHT THERE!

> The mixer handling code changed a couple of times after this.

The patch fails, yes. Some further guidance would be nice. 

> > Suggestion: Make fallback order a config option. You are hardcoding
> > policy. That's a no-no.
> 
> No. This has nothing to do with policy.
> 
> We want to control the 'outermost' volume slider. Because that's the
> one that most likely controls the actual analog amplifier if there is
> any. Controlling 'PCM' is kind of pointless on most modern cards since
> it is implemented digitally.
> 
> It simply doesn't make any sense to pick 'PCM', unless the driver is a
> bit weird and doesn't have a 'Master' control.
> 
> And as mentioned there's a workaround, you can specify the control for
> a sink. But using that will break device autodetecting and hence the
> whole profile logic. BTW, that option was contributed by someone with a
> weird driver who supplied me with a patch. He didn't whine on a huge
> thread on a mailing list, but just prepared a patch. Could be a good
> role model for some other folks, don't you think?

And here it is. I already displayed a willingness to write a patch. I
*attempted* a patch. It's right there in the archives, signed with my
gpg key. It's right there in YOUR QUOTED MESSAGE, plain as day. Do you
read before you post? Do you possess *any* grip on reality?

And you DARE to suggest I'm just some lazy loudmouth making demands? Is
there any more succinct response to that level of dickery than "Fuck
you."? I sure can't think of one.

So seriously Lennart, Fuck you.

<clip>

End message.

> And no, we have no hard numbers about anything our end users want. I
> know your hubris and stuff but uh, sorry, in contrast to what you may
> believe I don't think that you are representative for the mythical end
> user of Fedora. You are just a very very vocal minority.

Yes, we get it. Any individual who speaks up is by definition a
minority. So there is absolutely no one you will listen to but yourself.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 00:29:05 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:29:05 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904251544y1f6ee387s80e64080cf71d737@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<gsnvnk$md9$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240516474.720.147.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904241136.05736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<1240697516.5771.105.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904251544y1f6ee387s80e64080cf71d737@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240705746.5771.196.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 17:44 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
> >> As for using email addresses as OpenIDs, this is something the OpenID
> >> community is talking about quite a bit right now; Google included.
> >
> > Having to type in a domain or an email address is NOT an improvement
> 
> Having a single account over multiple account is an improvement.
> 
> > This should require NO typing. The user should see no URLs, no domains,
> 
> Why not?
> 
> > no emails, they should see nothing but a button to click.
> 
> Why not? This is trying to solve the problem of multiple accounts not
> laziness. Eventually I'm sure there will be browser extensions to auto
> enter your open id info if you can't bare to Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.

Does ease of use mean anything to you? Think about browser devices that
don't have keyboards.

You're trying to solve a much smaller problem than me. How is entering
your email everywhere an improvement over just using the same password
on every site? All you've done is made it so you enter one thing instead
of two. That's *it*. (Does OpenID even remove the need to go through an
email validation loop on every single site? Since it completely avoids
the entire notion of email, I don't think it does...)

I want a Single Sign On where I authenticate myself ONCE, per session. I
want to then be able to go to any site that supports OpenID, click "log
in" and be logged in. Period. No passwords, no nothing. I entered it
once, that's enough.

I do believe this is what the Gnome Online Desktop people are trying to
do. Log in to your desktop, and you're automagically logged in to every
web app you use. They do it by just storing all authentications in a
keyring, and use your desktop login as a master key. But where do you
store your keyring?

Every time you enter a club, do you have to wait for the bouncer to
confirm your mailing address, do a background check, interview your
references, pull your credit report, interview your employer, check your
fingerprints, and do a DNA test to make sure you are who you say you
are? No, you show them your ID. The bouncer has for the most part
delegated the task of identifying you to the government.

This is what OpenID should be like. You just show your ID, or rather the
browser does it for you when you instruct it to do so by clicking the
"log in" button, and you're done. That's it. One click. Done.

Different OpenID providers are kind of like different states. Or like
IDs from different countries. Passports. Whatever makes sense to you.
Different organizations that have agreed to trust each other to vouch
for their own citizens.
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From pemboa at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 00:32:12 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:32:12 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240705746.5771.196.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<gsnvnk$md9$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240516474.720.147.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904241136.05736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<1240697516.5771.105.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904251544y1f6ee387s80e64080cf71d737@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240705746.5771.196.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904251732s732c468die6ca39470e5a71e1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 17:44 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
>> >> As for using email addresses as OpenIDs, this is something the OpenID
>> >> community is talking about quite a bit right now; Google included.
>> >
>> > Having to type in a domain or an email address is NOT an improvement
>>
>> Having a single account over multiple account is an improvement.
>>
>> > This should require NO typing. The user should see no URLs, no domains,
>>
>> Why not?
>>
>> > no emails, they should see nothing but a button to click.
>>
>> Why not? This is trying to solve the problem of multiple accounts not
>> laziness. Eventually I'm sure there will be browser extensions to auto
>> enter your open id info if you can't bare to Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.
>
> Does ease of use mean anything to you? Think about browser devices that
> don't have keyboards.
>
> You're trying to solve a much smaller problem than me. How is entering
> your email everywhere an improvement over just using the same password
> on every site? All you've done is made it so you enter one thing instead
> of two. That's *it*. (Does OpenID even remove the need to go through an
> email validation loop on every single site? Since it completely avoids
> the entire notion of email, I don't think it does...)


Are we still talking about making being a bug filer across multiple
projects easier?


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 01:01:35 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 20:01:35 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904251732s732c468die6ca39470e5a71e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<gsnvnk$md9$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240516474.720.147.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904241136.05736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<1240697516.5771.105.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904251544y1f6ee387s80e64080cf71d737@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240705746.5771.196.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904251732s732c468die6ca39470e5a71e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240707695.5771.214.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 19:32 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 17:44 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> >> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
> >> >> As for using email addresses as OpenIDs, this is something the OpenID
> >> >> community is talking about quite a bit right now; Google included.
> >> >
> >> > Having to type in a domain or an email address is NOT an improvement
> >>
> >> Having a single account over multiple account is an improvement.
> >>
> >> > This should require NO typing. The user should see no URLs, no domains,
> >>
> >> Why not?
> >>
> >> > no emails, they should see nothing but a button to click.
> >>
> >> Why not? This is trying to solve the problem of multiple accounts not
> >> laziness. Eventually I'm sure there will be browser extensions to auto
> >> enter your open id info if you can't bare to Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.
> >
> > Does ease of use mean anything to you? Think about browser devices that
> > don't have keyboards.
> >
> > You're trying to solve a much smaller problem than me. How is entering
> > your email everywhere an improvement over just using the same password
> > on every site? All you've done is made it so you enter one thing instead
> > of two. That's *it*. (Does OpenID even remove the need to go through an
> > email validation loop on every single site? Since it completely avoids
> > the entire notion of email, I don't think it does...)
> 
> 
> Are we still talking about making being a bug filer across multiple
> projects easier?

Uhhh, yes, actually. Need a scenario?

Jeb files a bug against FooBar in the Fedora bugzilla. The Fedora
maintainer decides it's best this bug is moved into the upstream
Bugzilla. Jeb has never used the FooBar bugzilla, and doesn't really
understand or care about details like who's bugzilla his bug is in. He
just wants it fixed.

How do you move the bug, and keep Jeb in the loop?

Are we going to make Jeb have to go through a sign-up and email
confirmation loop on the FooBar bugzilla before he can continue
communicating? What's the likelyhood of him even bothering?

Its these little annoyances that drive people off. Sure, call them lazy
all you want. But it's not going to help them.

Or does OpenID allow him to seamlessly log in to the FooBar bugzilla
with his Fedora account, without knowing or caring about the details.

It goes like this:

Jeb is directed to the new FooBar bug. He tries to post something, but
the site asks him to log in. A "Log in with your Fedora account" button
is displayed. He clicks it. Done, he's logged in. One click.

We can make that happen.
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr 26 01:44:59 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 07:14:59 +0530
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240697729.5771.108.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>	<1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240696706.2919.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240697729.5771.108.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F3BC9B.4060708@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/26/2009 03:45 AM, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 14:58 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 16:45 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
>>> A compromise that does absolutely nothing, that is 0%, to address my
>>> concerns is productive how?
>>>
>>> Have the concerns of the person that sparked this whole thing become
>>> irrelevant at some point along the way?
>>>
>>> This thing has certainly spun far out of my control, and no longer even
>>> has much to do with what I wanted in the first place.
>> Unfortunately it wasn't just your needs we were trying to address in the
>> meeting.
> 
> Just sayin'. I'm sure not getting anything out of this so far.
> 
> Who's needs are we trying to address now? Do they have a name? It feels
> like FESCo is trying to address the needs of two straw men at this
> point.

They addressed the needs of people like me who want to change the input
sources. I have to change from mic to front mic to record anything at
all or use voice chat and I am not at all twiddle happy in these things.
If it works by default, I wouldn't change a thing. Unfortunately it
doesn't. While I personally can fall back to alsamixer, it is going to
be more trouble for other users.

There is also a smaller number of users for whom, sound does not work at
all until they fiddle with one of the volume control settings in alsamixer.

Fortunately, these are bugs or enhancements requests taken into
consideration by PulseAudio folks and should be fixed by Fedora 12
timeframe.

Rahul



From pemboa at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 03:13:31 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:13:31 -0500
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240707695.5771.214.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<gsnvnk$md9$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240516474.720.147.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904241136.05736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<1240697516.5771.105.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904251544y1f6ee387s80e64080cf71d737@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240705746.5771.196.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904251732s732c468die6ca39470e5a71e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240707695.5771.214.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904252013p5d462b50ud97fbf16777bb9d3@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 19:32 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
>> > On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 17:44 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> >> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:
>> >> >> As for using email addresses as OpenIDs, this is something the OpenID
>> >> >> community is talking about quite a bit right now; Google included.
>> >> >
>> >> > Having to type in a domain or an email address is NOT an improvement
>> >>
>> >> Having a single account over multiple account is an improvement.
>> >>
>> >> > This should require NO typing. The user should see no URLs, no domains,
>> >>
>> >> Why not?
>> >>
>> >> > no emails, they should see nothing but a button to click.
>> >>
>> >> Why not? This is trying to solve the problem of multiple accounts not
>> >> laziness. Eventually I'm sure there will be browser extensions to auto
>> >> enter your open id info if you can't bare to Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.
>> >
>> > Does ease of use mean anything to you? Think about browser devices that
>> > don't have keyboards.
>> >
>> > You're trying to solve a much smaller problem than me. How is entering
>> > your email everywhere an improvement over just using the same password
>> > on every site? All you've done is made it so you enter one thing instead
>> > of two. That's *it*. (Does OpenID even remove the need to go through an
>> > email validation loop on every single site? Since it completely avoids
>> > the entire notion of email, I don't think it does...)
>>
>>
>> Are we still talking about making being a bug filer across multiple
>> projects easier?
>
> Uhhh, yes, actually. Need a scenario?
>
> Jeb files a bug against FooBar in the Fedora bugzilla. The Fedora
> maintainer decides it's best this bug is moved into the upstream
> Bugzilla. Jeb has never used the FooBar bugzilla, and doesn't really
> understand or care about details like who's bugzilla his bug is in. He
> just wants it fixed.
>
> How do you move the bug, and keep Jeb in the loop?
>
> Are we going to make Jeb have to go through a sign-up and email
> confirmation loop on the FooBar bugzilla before he can continue
> communicating? What's the likelyhood of him even bothering?


Would he just use the same open id auth url he uses to access the
fedora bugzilla? Maybe I'm miistaken here, but it seems like the same
open id that allows you to login without signing up to Fedora would
allow him to do with the other bugzilla.

All I'm saying is, asking someone to copy and paste in their open id
url is not as difficult as signing up, and really... I'm just giving
you that signing up is difficult in the first place.



-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From a.badger at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 05:27:29 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:27:29 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090425172434.GE12588@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<20090425172434.GE12588@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F3F0C1.9020603@gmail.com>

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> 
> I think FESCo is doing the right thing by including something that
> will work for the large number of users we have who are natural
> bit-twiddlers, and require functionality beyond what the
> drivers/hardware currently make available to PA.  But I also think the
> Desktop SIG ought to be able to make a Desktop Spin that represents
> their vision.  In fact, that's something we've asked for at, e.g., the
> recent FUDCon in Boston last January.
> 
Something that jwb noticed in the FESCo meeting but didn't get explored
is that many FESCo members referred to the live spin as the "default
spin" whereas the desktop team members referred to it as the "desktop
spin".  I think this is an important thing to ponder.  FESCo has been
pushing the distribution away from the install DVD and more towards the
live images.  I think this is a good thing as it gives new (and old...
I'm going to be trying a few spins on USB before upgrading the rest of
my computers to F11) users the ability to try things out before they
settle on what they want.

However, this means that the public face of the Fedora Distribution is
not whatever the user gets after they customize the package set from the
install DVD and install those packages onto the hard drive.  It means
that the user's impression of what Fedora is is largely what they get
when they boot the "default spin" that's the first entry here:

  http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora

With this in mind, we currently have a desktop spin but it's not the
exclusive playground of the desktop team.  The spin is also tied very
tightly to what Fedora the Distribution is.  And that's why FESCo feels
the need to have a say in what's on that particular spin when it seems
to not be providing what users want.

Is this a mistake?  The desktop team gets exposure for their work by
being the default spin but they also have to contend with more
stake-holders in the results of their work.  mclasen brought up the
empathy issue from last release and I'm pretty sure the mono-banshee
feature that was pushed at the desktop team this release was directed at
getting it onto the default spin rather than what the desktop team
produces specifically.

Now I'm not on FESCo and I'm not on the desktop team, so what do the
real stakeholders here think?  Desktop team, do you get enough value
from being the default spin to outweigh the extra burden of satisfying
everyone who thinks of the Desktop Spin as the Fedora Distribution?
FESCo, if the desktop team says they want a spin of their own to
control, are you willing to figure out a different spin (or different
method) for telling user's what the Fedora Distribution is?

-Toshio

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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 06:09:28 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:09:28 +0200
Subject: development packages and multilib
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240522347.16854.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsqukv$orq$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <gt0tqo$9gb$1@ger.gmane.org>

Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> Our requirements are that one build environment produces one package
> containing both 32- and 64-bit binaries.

If you're talking about RPM packages, that's completely broken, an x86_64
RPM is supposed to only contain x86_64 stuff (and it won't install on
32-bit systems), and an i386 RPM definitely must not contain 64-bit stuff.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 06:21:20 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:21:20 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<gsnvnk$md9$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240516474.720.147.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200904241136.05736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt0uh0$9gb$2@ger.gmane.org>

Bill Crawford wrote:
> Google is taking advantage of a feature in OpenID 2.0 known as "Directed
> Identity". This allows an OpenID 2.0 Relying Party to start the OpenID
> protocol flow using a known URL (Yahoo!'s is http://openid.yahoo.com/) to
> allow for "one click" style login dialogues. By performing discovery on
> this URL, using the XRDS XML format, the OpenID Provider advertises the
> OpenID Endpoint URL for the Relying Party to make a request against.
> Google is doing this correctly with the URL to perform discovery against
> being https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id.

And how are the sites supposed to know this URL? By hardcoding a list of
such URLs? (Yuck! That pretty much defeats the point of OpenID and brings
us back to a hardcoded list of ID providers.) Or by asking the user to
paste it? (Even worse, now the user has to paste an obscure URL *and* enter
their e-mail address rather than just pasting an obscure URL, what problem
does that solve?)

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 06:28:46 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:28:46 +0200
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<46a038f90904230344v1831fa11p371cad4d62ae45bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240508837.14173.784.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <gt0uuv$9gb$3@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> (The status tracking doesn't seem to work with all external sites,
> though.)

And that's the big problem here.

KDE runs Bugzilla 3.2.x just as Fedora does, yet KDE bug references always
show up as "No Status   No Description". :-(

        Kevin Kofler



From rjones at redhat.com  Sun Apr 26 07:06:07 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:06:07 +0100
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <gt0tqo$9gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240522347.16854.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsqukv$orq$1@ger.gmane.org> <gt0tqo$9gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090426070607.GA26587@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 08:09:28AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> > Our requirements are that one build environment produces one package
> > containing both 32- and 64-bit binaries.
> 
> If you're talking about RPM packages, that's completely broken, an x86_64
> RPM is supposed to only contain x86_64 stuff (and it won't install on
> 32-bit systems), and an i386 RPM definitely must not contain 64-bit stuff.

I think it's interesting that three things: (1) cross-compilation, (2)
virtualization and (3) Wine [which is a type of virt] becoming usable,
have all happened at around the same time, and I don't think it's a
coincidence.

It means what you said above isn't really true any more, or more
circumspectly, if what you said is true, then RPM isn't designed for
this new world.

Some examples:

Since Wine reached 1.0 a few years ago and became usable, it now
becomes practical to build and test software on Fedora.  Hence the
Windows cross-compiler project.  "noarch" RPMs contain Windows
libraries.

With virtualization now commonplace, you can no longer assume that the
architecture you build on will be the architecture you run on.  It's
quite possible, in fact desirable, to store programs in an RPM of a
different architecture, that will run in (eg) qemu.  An example of
this is virt-p2v and the V2V tools, where we store drivers for all
sorts of different platforms and architectures inside the RPM.

With appliances, it's quite desirable to want a 32 bit appliance
stored alongside a 64 bit program.  32 bit appliances are generally
better because of the qualities of appliances: They run in a VM, so
host architecture doesn't matter.  They run in very little memory, so
64 bit isn't useful.  You want them to be as small as possible, and
(sometimes, not always) 32 bit binaries are smaller.

In the actual appliances cases I'm looking at now, we really want to
mix not just 32 and 64 bit, but all combinations of architectures,
such as having x86-64 library linked with a (eg) ppc32 appliance.

[I should also add as a note here that I'm not talking about binary
blobs, firmware etc.  All of the above cases are built from source.]

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any
software inside the virtual machine.  Supports Linux and Windows.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-df/



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 07:15:23 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:15:23 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240463778.14173.763.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090423131328.GA14962@srcf.ucam.org>
	<200904232320.06169.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt11mb$gk8$1@ger.gmane.org>

Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> Exposing mixer functionality isn't a bug!
> If someone has a sound card which has some advanced controls
> (e.g. bass/treble) and you're trying (very hard) to hide them,
> you aren't doing any good to that guy.
> He bought that card - he deserves the right to use all it's functionality.

+1

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 07:34:28 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:34:28 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <gt12q4$hom$1@ger.gmane.org>

David Woodhouse wrote:
> The proposals I've seen to work around PulseAudio's problems have been
> ridiculous -- running audio over the network using PulseAudio,
> introducing a bunch of latency which wouldn't otherwise be there, was a
> stupid suggestion even if the other box wasn't running Windows.

FYI, PulseAudio also runs on Window$.
http://www.cendio.com/pulseaudio/

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 07:38:17 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:38:17 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240477289.2996.8.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090423153254.GB24372@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <gt1319$hom$3@ger.gmane.org>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Secondly, you _can_ get at the extra controls by dropping to alsamixer.

... which isn't even a GUI app.

You might at least suggest a GUI app like the XFCE mixer or KMix as a
serious alternative. But all this doesn't justify dropping ALSA support
from gnome-volume-control.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 07:36:25 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:36:25 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<e76492710904231212n17a540a9va552019d88f8ea02@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt12tp$hom$2@ger.gmane.org>

Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> But there is one thing that I miss. These controls used to be
> classified in tabs. One tab was showing the output controls the other
> was showing input controls etc. Does anyone know who/what made these
> tabs disappear in kmix?

KDE 4?

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 08:16:27 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:16:27 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gt158r$kje$1@ger.gmane.org>

Callum Lerwick wrote:
> E: module.c: Failed to load  module "module-alsa-sink" (argument:
> "control=PCM"): initialization failed.

Try putting (double) quotes around "PCM".

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 08:17:32 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:17:32 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt15at$kje$2@ger.gmane.org>

Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> Seriously, given hundreds of threads in fedoraforum, people
> complaining about pulseaudio, we do need to discuss how to remove
> pulseaudio from Fedora (not whether we should remove it).

PulseAudio is not going away. Sorry.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 08:30:15 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:30:15 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
References: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240592832.8696.1510.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<a2e85ed0904241030r4cf00a75s40670db156416a87@mail.gmail.com>
	<66ec675b0904241055g46fc623ct9330ab456c6ac760@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt162n$kje$3@ger.gmane.org>

Joonas Saraj?rvi wrote:
> Some pieces of software seem harder to get behave well with
> Pulseaudio. Hard ones have been [snip]
> Audacity (I hear it's nowadays better)

It is, I fixed it.

        Kevin Kofler



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Sun Apr 26 08:38:52 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:38:52 +0100
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240697729.5771.108.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com> <1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240696706.2919.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240697729.5771.108.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240735132.21153.805.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 17:15 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 14:58 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 16:45 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > > A compromise that does absolutely nothing, that is 0%, to address my
> > > concerns is productive how?
> > > 
> > > Have the concerns of the person that sparked this whole thing become
> > > irrelevant at some point along the way?

Actually I raised the issue with FESCo based on something else, although
your issue and others certainly contributed to my concerns.

My original thought was just that FESCo would gently prod the packagers
who were closing regression bugs as WONTFIX, and encourage them to
behave more responsibly. When it became apparent that gentle
remonstration with the people concerned wasn't going to be sufficient,
something else came out of the discussion instead.

> > > This thing has certainly spun far out of my control, and no longer even
> > > has much to do with what I wanted in the first place.
> > 
> > Unfortunately it wasn't just your needs we were trying to address in the
> > meeting.

People will always need access to mixer controls. One set of people will
need them because they want to do things that the PulseAudio folks call
"weird", like using that line-in socket on the side of their laptop, or
playing CDs without chewing CPU time doing all those strange unreliable
heuristics we do to knit audio back together when we rip it off a CD. Or
turning their speakers on or off. Or setting the relative levels of bass
and mid-range speakers. Or any number of other things.

Other people need it just to get optimal use out of their hardware in
the "non-weird" cases. Although we're building up a hardware database
which tells us which of those sliders in the alsa-mixer-of-doom actually
do useful things, it can never be completely accurate and up to date.
People will _always_ be able to do better by experimenting for
themselves.

For example, if I want to get the best audible volume out of my laptop,
I may need to tweak the various mixer levels _just_ low enough to avoid
clipping, and the levels required depend on a lot of things -- including
the analogue circuitry in _this_ particular machine, and the ears of the
people present in the room. That information isn't going to be in the
database.

We have to accept that there are _always_ going to be cases where users
want better control over the mixer.

> Just sayin'. I'm sure not getting anything out of this so far.

Callum, I'm sorry we didn't address the panel issue. I wanted to talk
about the panel, but it quickly became clear there wasn't sufficient
consensus on that.

I think it's a fairly poor compromise that we ended up with -- but
that's kind of the point in compromise; it's not really _anyone's_
perfect vision.

On the whole, I _like_ the new F-11 gnome-volume-control -- I just wish
we could just make it work for the cases it currently doesn't handle.
That would be the ideal solution.

  (Obviously not just by adding more sliders; it needs to be possible
  for users to enable what they _need_ without just showing them the
  alsa-mixer-of-doom by default. I'm not really qualified to give a
  detailed suggestion on _how_ it's done -- that's a UI decision which I
  wish the UI experts would address. I wish they _wouldn't_ try to
  address it by simply declaring these uses out of Fedora's scope.
  That's a policy decision which I think it's properly within FESCo's
  mandate to decide.)

But since there's such resistance to doing that, shipping an alternative
volume control app at least restores functionality to those users who
need it.

It's even more suboptimal that this app is hidden in the menus and not
accessible from the panel. As far as the F-10 user is concerned, this
functionality is just _gone_ from the place it used to be; I'm not sure
they'll think to go looking around in the application menus to find it
again.

But that's the compromise we agreed on. It's far from ideal, but at
least it's only a regression in _usability_ for those users, not a
complete loss of functionality.


To be honest, I think the best option at this stage would really have
been to revert the VolumeControl feature for F-11, and to say "come back
and try again in F-12, and please do a better job next time". But I
definitely don't think we have FESCo consensus on _that_, so I didn't
push it very hard.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation




From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Sun Apr 26 08:43:14 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:43:14 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240735394.21153.814.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 03:34 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 24.04.09 23:48, David Woodhouse (dwmw2 at infradead.org) wrote:
> 
> > I don't think we're just going to decide that Fedora doesn't care about
> > these users -- and from what I saw today I don't think it's likely that
> > the PA folks will decide that they _do_ care.
> > 
> > So it looks like if we keep PulseAudio as the core around which Fedora
> > audio support is based, we're _always_ going to need to keep something
> > extra to fill the functionality gap.
> 
> Oh great. This sounds like an invitation to stop working on cleaning
> up the volume control situation entirely. If we never can get rid of
> the old cruft and need to prominently feature it in all future release
> then why even try?

I believe that our user interface people are good enough that they can
find some middle ground -- somewhere a long way from the oft-cited
alsa-mixer-of-doom, and much closer to the nice but oversimplified F-11
implementation of gnome-volume-control -- but which actually lets people
have better control over their hardware _when_ they need it.

I don't believe that we're really limited to one extreme or the other.

So no, I don't believe that it's an invitation to stop working on it at
all. It's merely an invitation to do better.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation

Hell, I suck at UI design and even _I_ can make a UI simpler just by
ripping functionality out of it. Surely we have people who are better
than that? 



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 08:47:22 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:47:22 +0200
Subject: X on tty7
References: <1240479187.16014.2.camel@choeger6>
	<1240508699.14173.782.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <gt172q$kje$4@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Williamson wrote:
> X is on tty1 if you're using kernel modesetting (which is default for
> radeon and intel, for most hardware), still on tty7 if not (all other
> hardware).

That's for GDM. For KDM, we just set it up in the config file
(/etc/kde/kdm/kdmrc) to always use tty1. Though of course that's in the new
default config file, not in the one shipped with F9 which is retained if it
was customized. Other ways to start X11 behave differently again.

        Kevin Kofler



From drago01 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 08:50:32 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:50:32 +0200
Subject: X on tty7
In-Reply-To: <1240508699.14173.782.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <1240479187.16014.2.camel@choeger6>
	<1240508699.14173.782.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904260150v67ee56f5o22a7f97b96f5db8f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 11:33 +0200, Christoph H?ger wrote:
>> Hey guys,
>>
>> after upgrading from f9 to rawhide my X starts on tty7, but no getty
>> runs on tty1, so I guess inittab got updated somehow.
>> But having X on tty7 is not what all the cool kids have ;) and I want to
>> play with them, so how do I make my fedora behave modern?
>>
>> Serious: I consider this a bug in the update process, at least X _or_
>> getty should run on tty1.
>
> X is on tty1 if you're using kernel modesetting (which is default for
> radeon and intel, for most hardware), still on tty7 if not (all other
> hardware).

This has nothing do do with kms its whether you are using plymouth
(passing rhgb to the kernel command-line, which is the default) or
not.



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 08:59:30 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:59:30 +0200
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090423210733.GC29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240522107.13325.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090423215030.GG29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240526597.13325.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gt17pi$qma$1@ger.gmane.org>

Christoph Wickert wrote:
> PA offers an OSS comparability layer.

Uh no, it doesn't. Well, it does, in the form of the "padsp" wrapper through
which you have to run the application. But the OSS compatibility layer you
get by default is provided by ALSA, and it only handles exclusive access to
the hardware, no mixing. So you're taking away the hardware from
PulseAudio, which might explain why it quits working when you do that...

On the other hand, PulseAudio provides an ALSA plugin, so ALSA is what you
need to use for apps with no native PulseAudio support.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 09:10:17 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:10:17 +0200
Subject: kde-4.2.2 - kded4 eating cpu cycles
References: <200904241831.55775.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt18dq$qma$2@ger.gmane.org>

Suren Karapetyan wrote:
> Some strange issues here with kde-4.2.2 update.
> After the update is done and I restart the system and login
> kded4 is taking 100% on one of the CPUs.
> The problem is gone on the next restart
> and doesn't come back(at least yet).
> It has happened on both F10 systems I updated to 4.2.2 -
> on my home desktop and laptop.
> Does anyone know what can be the cause of this?

Next time please ask on fedora-kde or fedora-list (or #fedora-kde on IRC),
this is not a development issue.

(As for the actual question, rdieter and jreznik already answered it.)

        Kevin Kofler



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Sun Apr 26 09:20:24 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:20:24 +0200
Subject: does anybody use banshee successfully?
Message-ID: <1240737624.2422.2.camel@choeger6>

Hi,

I just created:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497693

I was just wondering that this should basically affect every single user
of banshee, a mp3 player, and .ogg music db. I assume this is a very
common use case, so why does nobody complain?

Has anyone a workaround for this?

regards

christoph
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 09:21:50 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:21:50 +0200
Subject: New packages during rawhide freeze
References: <49F19330.6020605@smartlink.ee>
	<20090424123007.GB2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
	<1240586721.3063.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gt193e$tek$1@ger.gmane.org>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> I tried something this freeze to make things a bit easier for us doing
> tag requests, but I failed to consider the inheritance issue.  I'll be
> fixing this shortly, but for those things that are getting inherited
> now, we probably should tag them for F11.

The biggest issue with inheritance is that some of the inherited stuff has
broken deps.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 09:33:55 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:33:55 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F202BC.5090206@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <gt19q4$u7m$1@ger.gmane.org>

Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> Making things easier to use is great -- but restricting UIs to only have
> an "easy mode" 100% of the time isn't for everyone.

Agreed entirely, but why are you using GNOME if you're feeling like that?
GNOME is intentionally that way. Try KDE.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 09:46:35 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:46:35 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Oh great. This sounds like an invitation to stop working on cleaning
> up the volume control situation entirely. If we never can get rid of
> the old cruft and need to prominently feature it in all future release
> then why even try?

I think that's the whole point here. We can NEVER get rid of those sliders,
they all exist for a reason. (Well, almost ? I'm sure there's one or the
other bogus dummy control in some driver, but those are ALSA bugs. Showing
sliders which actually do something is NOT a bug.)

And let me assure you that I'm NOT one of those "remove PulseAudio" people,
in fact when people complain about sound not working, the first thing I say
is "make sure PulseAudio is installed and running and don't listen to
people claiming you should disable it". But PulseAudio does not obviate the
need for those ALSA controls (which work fine even when PulseAudio is
running).

        Kevin Kofler



From nikolay at vladimiroff.com  Sun Apr 26 09:48:19 2009
From: nikolay at vladimiroff.com (Nikolay Vladimirov)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:48:19 +0300
Subject: does anybody use banshee successfully?
In-Reply-To: <1240737624.2422.2.camel@choeger6>
References: <1240737624.2422.2.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <a2e85ed0904260248v7b59efd4t4b3a06012202eb2a@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/26 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>:
> Hi,
>
> I just created:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497693
>
> I was just wondering that this should basically affect every single user
> of banshee, a mp3 player, and .ogg music db. I assume this is a very
> common use case, so why does nobody complain?
>
> Has anyone a workaround for this?
>
> regards
>
> christoph

Just transcoded a bunch of OGGs for my girlfriend's iPod with banshee
on F10. So this may be only a rawhide issue.



-- 
NV



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 09:57:38 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:57:38 +0200
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com> <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost> <49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240620689.26274.4.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <gt1b6i$ek$2@ger.gmane.org>

Dave Airlie wrote:
> The mandate is for both Desktop/LiveCD spin and Fedora default install,
> surely the Desktop team does decide for the desktop/livecd spin, but not
> or the Fedora install. Since I'm sure the KDE spin won't want to include
> either of these.

The KDE spin includes KMix which gives access to all the ALSA settings as it
always did, so it is not affected by this debate at all. This discussion is
only about GNOME.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 10:13:39 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:13:39 +0200
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>

Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> If the Board wants to reverse the decision of what goes onto a spin by
> default they can because they are the source of FESCo's authority on
> technical matters.  But that means that they're taking away all of the
> authority that they've given FESCo for technical matters with no
> compromise which is a very different thing than what occurred between
> FESCo and the Desktop SIG at today's meeting.

I must say that, while I do believe users need to have access to the sound
card controls exposed by ALSA, the precedent this decision sets worries me.
It should ultimately be the GNOME Desktop Team's decision to decide what
goes onto the GNOME spin. I definitely wouldn't be happy if FESCo started
dictating the contents of the KDE spin.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Sun Apr 26 10:17:40 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:17:40 +0200
Subject: Problem with build-id and cycling the free pascal compiler
References: <1240667628.31161.14.camel@wsjoost>
Message-ID: <gt1cc4$3h1$2@ger.gmane.org>

Joost van der Sluis wrote:
> Any ideas how to fix this?

Just patch it to only run 2 cycles (which should be sufficient for a full
bootstrap) or even just 1 cycle (giving you the new compiler built with the
old version), skipping the comparisons entirely.

        Kevin Kofler



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Sun Apr 26 11:17:47 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:17:47 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240744667.21153.1003.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 18:58 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> 
> > I know you mean well by trying to simplify this entire mess (I hated the
> > old Volume Control, it was too much), but on the other hand this seems
> > to be a messy problem and taking too much control from the user is a
> > mistake. At least that's what my intuition is telling me, FWIW.
> 
> If we don' try to fix it then this will never be fixed.

I agree -- it is a wonderful thing that we're trying to fix this, and I
applaud your efforts.

But we have to acknowledge that we cannot always get it 100% right, and
that we _do_ need to let the user have ultimate control.

Even ignoring the 'esoteric' use cases, I don't think we're ever going
to see an end to bugs like #493790 or the last part of #497698.
It's all very well saying that the ALSA hardware database should know
everything -- but it _doesn't_, and realistically speaking it never
will.

It doesn't even know about the 'Front' control on my MacBook Pro -- so
if I didn't have gnome-alsamixer, the F-11 installation would just be
inexplicably quieter than F-10 was.

You can argue that that's a bug in the database, and even that it's
someone _else's_ database so it's not your problem. And you'd be right,
to a certain extent.

But you seem to be missing the point that there will _always_ be bugs in
the database, and it's _your_ code which has suddenly promoted that
database from being a 'convenience' to a 'mission critical' thing, by
relying on it 100% and giving the user no override.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From drago01 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 14:38:06 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:38:06 +0200
Subject: PulseAudio and sound apps (was: Re: Orphaning a few packages)
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904240926l7750b31fk62ee8df308ef3ca4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e76492710904121717t35d1c2bdu9652245b39b02390@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240508122.19097.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240518972.720.178.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240543322.21923.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424134358.GA30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240818u6963e3by4b423e6a58fc8c34@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090424152314.GA6717@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240833m4a99b44av9eb9e42249f65dff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090424153921.GC6717@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904240926l7750b31fk62ee8df308ef3ca4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904260738g38bd91ccl420b0e958b886531@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora at gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> it does
> not properly support multiple soundcards;

WTF?

Multiple soundcard support is one of the reasons why I don't want to
go back to raw alsa (where this is a pain).
I can hotplug soundcards, move streams between without having to
reconfigure or restarts apps.



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr 26 14:47:09 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:47:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090426 changes
Message-ID: <20090426144709.D02961F81F7@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Sun Apr 26 06:15:08 UTC 2009

Summary:
Added Packages: 0
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 0
Broken deps for i386
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Broken deps for ppc64
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	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)





From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 15:15:17 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:15:17 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 11:46, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler at chello.at) wrote:

> 
> Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > Oh great. This sounds like an invitation to stop working on cleaning
> > up the volume control situation entirely. If we never can get rid of
> > the old cruft and need to prominently feature it in all future release
> > then why even try?
> 
> I think that's the whole point here. We can NEVER get rid of those sliders,
> they all exist for a reason. (Well, almost ? I'm sure there's one or the
> other bogus dummy control in some driver, but those are ALSA bugs. Showing
> sliders which actually do something is NOT a bug.)

Uh. We certainly can get rid of them. Many of the more modern HDA
designs got rid of the entire volume control logic and instead
increased the PCM bit depth to 24 bit everywhere of which the usual 4-8
bit headroom can be used for volume control. In ALSA these are all
those devices where the 'softvol' module does volume control.

Gazillions of controls are *not* necessary. Only if you buy a Creative
sound card these days you still get such an immsense number of those
controls. But that's simply because otherwise there is nothing that
would distuingish them from onboard audio. All machines today come
with onboard sound cards whith quality nobody could ever complain
about.

Today we have MMX and SSE and similar CPU extensions. The very reason
we have them is to do signal processing with them. Such as
implementing mixing, volume adjustments, equalizers, and other filters
in them -- in high digital quality. Ironically even Creative sees that
and nowadays a lot of logic is actually in their Windows drivers, not
so much in their sound cards.

The only controls that are really necessary are NOT those which
control signal processing but those which control routing. And of
those the ones which make sense already are (like the spdif controls)
or will be (like input switching) exposed by PA. 

So, you said 'they exist for a reason'. Yes and that reason often has
to do more with marketing than with technical reasons. And since PA is
not a marketing tool I won't buy into those.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 15:21:08 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:21:08 +0200
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <gt17pi$qma$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090423210733.GC29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240522107.13325.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090423215030.GG29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240526597.13325.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gt17pi$qma$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090426152108.GC660@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 10:59, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler at chello.at) wrote:

> But the OSS compatibility layer you get by default is provided by
> ALSA, and it only handles exclusive access to the hardware, no
> mixing.

That is actually not true anymore. In-kernel OSS is disabled now in
F11.

I am actually surprised that noone of the usual suspects started a
huge thread about this yet on fedora-devel. It'd make good fodder for
the trolls. May I feed those folks their lines? "Oh my, we're no real
Unix anymore!", "Oh my, my 1992 closed source tool still needs it."

I hope some reality satire ensues.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From jkeating at redhat.com  Sun Apr 26 15:23:05 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:23:05 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 12:13 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> I must say that, while I do believe users need to have access to the sound
> card controls exposed by ALSA, the precedent this decision sets worries me.
> It should ultimately be the GNOME Desktop Team's decision to decide what
> goes onto the GNOME spin. I definitely wouldn't be happy if FESCo started
> dictating the contents of the KDE spin.

I don't see it as dictation.  I see it as reaching a compromise.  FESCo
didn't even vote on it until after mclasen agreed to put the mixer
there.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Sun Apr 26 15:26:56 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:26:56 -0700
Subject: New packages during rawhide freeze
In-Reply-To: <gt193e$tek$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49F19330.6020605@smartlink.ee>
	<20090424123007.GB2953@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>
	<1240586721.3063.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gt193e$tek$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240759616.6529.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 11:21 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
> > I tried something this freeze to make things a bit easier for us doing
> > tag requests, but I failed to consider the inheritance issue.  I'll be
> > fixing this shortly, but for those things that are getting inherited
> > now, we probably should tag them for F11.
> 
> The biggest issue with inheritance is that some of the inherited stuff has
> broken deps.
> 
>         Kevin Kofler

Yes, those will be fixed.


-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 15:28:54 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:28:54 +0200
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090426152853.GD660@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 08:23, Jesse Keating (jkeating at redhat.com) wrote:

> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 12:13 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > I must say that, while I do believe users need to have access to the sound
> > card controls exposed by ALSA, the precedent this decision sets worries me.
> > It should ultimately be the GNOME Desktop Team's decision to decide what
> > goes onto the GNOME spin. I definitely wouldn't be happy if FESCo started
> > dictating the contents of the KDE spin.
> 
> I don't see it as dictation.  I see it as reaching a compromise.  FESCo
> didn't even vote on it until after mclasen agreed to put the mixer
> there.

Uh. I wouldn't call this a compromise. One side just had enough of this
pita and retreated not caring anymore.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From psmith at fedoraproject.org  Sun Apr 26 15:42:29 2009
From: psmith at fedoraproject.org (psmith)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:42:29 +0100
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <20090426152108.GC660@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>	<gsqjve$que$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1240520224.8696.247.camel@dimi.lattica.com>	<20090423210733.GC29486@tango.0pointer.de>	<1240522107.13325.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<20090423215030.GG29486@tango.0pointer.de>	<1240526597.13325.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<gt17pi$qma$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426152108.GC660@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <49F480E5.5070202@fedoraproject.org>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Sun, 26.04.09 10:59, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler at chello.at) wrote:
>
>   
>> But the OSS compatibility layer you get by default is provided by
>> ALSA, and it only handles exclusive access to the hardware, no
>> mixing.
>>     
>
> That is actually not true anymore. In-kernel OSS is disabled now in
> F11.
>
> I am actually surprised that noone of the usual suspects started a
> huge thread about this yet on fedora-devel. It'd make good fodder for
> the trolls. May I feed those folks their lines? "Oh my, we're no real
> Unix anymore!", "Oh my, my 1992 closed source tool still needs it."
>
> I hope some reality satire ensues.
>
> Lennart
>
>   

jeez you have a real problem buddy!

phil



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 15:43:31 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:43:31 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240744667.21153.1003.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240744667.21153.1003.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <20090426154331.GE660@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 12:17, David Woodhouse (dwmw2 at infradead.org) wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 18:58 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > 
> > > I know you mean well by trying to simplify this entire mess (I hated the
> > > old Volume Control, it was too much), but on the other hand this seems
> > > to be a messy problem and taking too much control from the user is a
> > > mistake. At least that's what my intuition is telling me, FWIW.
> > 
> > If we don' try to fix it then this will never be fixed.
> 
> I agree -- it is a wonderful thing that we're trying to fix this, and I
> applaud your efforts.
> 
> But we have to acknowledge that we cannot always get it 100% right, and
> that we _do_ need to let the user have ultimate control.

Everyone who wants the full use of the mixer still can have it. The
question is whether it needs to be installed by default or not. Not
installing a mixer like that by default won't take any control or any
freedom away of the user.

You apparently want to make this a question of control and
freedom. It however is just a question of cluttering the default
install with stuff only a minority of folks need.

What's next? Will you be asking that postgresql is installed by
default on Fedora because some users could need it and it takes away
control from them if it's not installed by default?

> Even ignoring the 'esoteric' use cases, I don't think we're ever going
> to see an end to bugs like #493790 or the last part of #497698.
> It's all very well saying that the ALSA hardware database should know
> everything -- but it _doesn't_, and realistically speaking it never
> will.

It doesn't need to know *everything*. It just needs needs tweaks for
a few sound cards. It needs those tweaks on the kernel-side of the
story all the time, have you seen the amount of card-specific patches
that go into the HDA driver every week? For a few cards not just the
kernel drivers need to be tweaked from time to time but also the user
space db. The user space db is maintained by exactly the same folks
who also maintain the kernel drivers. And hence the chance is actually
not that bad that the db will be updated at the same time as the
kernel drivers if necessary

The db is still a pretty new feature. That's why it still misses the
userspce quirks for a lot of older sound cards.

> It doesn't even know about the 'Front' control on my MacBook Pro -- so
> if I didn't have gnome-alsamixer, the F-11 installation would just be
> inexplicably quieter than F-10 was.

The ALSA mixer interface is quite broken when it comes to surround
sound. Due to that a few controls have been slit up into seperate
Front/Rear/LFE/Center controls although should actually just be
one. That's a drity workaround in ALSA right now because everyone is
afraid of unfucking the mixer api.

> But you seem to be missing the point that there will _always_ be bugs in
> the database, and it's _your_ code which has suddenly promoted that
> database from being a 'convenience' to a 'mission critical' thing, by
> relying on it 100% and giving the user no override.

Yes, there will always be missing entries in the DB. The same way as
there always will be missing quirks in the kernel driver.  That's
something we need to accept. But there is no need to conclude from
that that it is necessary to expose the full alsa mixer all the
time -- the same way it is not necessary to install gcc, patch, git
and the kernel sources just because the kernel drivers might need
quirks, too.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mclasen at redhat.com  Sun Apr 26 16:02:31 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:02:31 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F3F0C1.9020603@gmail.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<20090425172434.GE12588@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F3F0C1.9020603@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240761751.2770.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 22:27 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:

> Now I'm not on FESCo and I'm not on the desktop team, so what do the
> real stakeholders here think?  Desktop team, do you get enough value
> from being the default spin to outweigh the extra burden of satisfying
> everyone who thinks of the Desktop Spin as the Fedora Distribution?
> FESCo, if the desktop team says they want a spin of their own to
> control, are you willing to figure out a different spin (or different
> method) for telling user's what the Fedora Distribution is?

The fundamental problem is that nobody knows what Fedora is. It gets
constantly torn into different directions, and as a result, makes nobody
happy. See recent board agendas ("What is Fedora")...



From mclasen at redhat.com  Sun Apr 26 16:06:12 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:06:12 -0400
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <gt19q4$u7m$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F202BC.5090206@cchtml.com>  <gt19q4$u7m$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240761972.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 11:33 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> > Making things easier to use is great -- but restricting UIs to only have
> > an "easy mode" 100% of the time isn't for everyone.
> 
> Agreed entirely, but why are you using GNOME if you're feeling like that?
> GNOME is intentionally that way. Try KDE.

Kevin, do you think that is necessary, really ? 
Are you that desparate to sell KDE ?



From mclasen at redhat.com  Sun Apr 26 16:10:19 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:10:19 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 08:23 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 12:13 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > I must say that, while I do believe users need to have access to the sound
> > card controls exposed by ALSA, the precedent this decision sets worries me.
> > It should ultimately be the GNOME Desktop Team's decision to decide what
> > goes onto the GNOME spin. I definitely wouldn't be happy if FESCo started
> > dictating the contents of the KDE spin.
> 
> I don't see it as dictation.  I see it as reaching a compromise.  FESCo
> didn't even vote on it until after mclasen agreed to put the mixer
> there.

Of course, having wwoods threaten to revert the whole VolumeControl
feature has nothing to do with it...



From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 16:15:11 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:15:11 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 17:15 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Sun, 26.04.09 11:46, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler at chello.at) wrote:
> > I think that's the whole point here. We can NEVER get rid of those sliders,
> > they all exist for a reason. (Well, almost ? I'm sure there's one or the
> > other bogus dummy control in some driver, but those are ALSA bugs. Showing
> > sliders which actually do something is NOT a bug.)
> 
> Uh. We certainly can get rid of them. Many of the more modern HDA
> designs got rid of the entire volume control logic and instead
> increased the PCM bit depth to 24 bit everywhere of which the usual 4-8
> bit headroom can be used for volume control. In ALSA these are all
> those devices where the 'softvol' module does volume control.
> 
> Gazillions of controls are *not* necessary. Only if you buy a Creative
> sound card these days you still get such an immsense number of those
> controls. But that's simply because otherwise there is nothing that
> would distuingish them from onboard audio. All machines today come
> with onboard sound cards whith quality nobody could ever complain
> about.
> 
> Today we have MMX and SSE and similar CPU extensions. The very reason
> we have them is to do signal processing with them. Such as
> implementing mixing, volume adjustments, equalizers, and other filters
> in them -- in high digital quality. Ironically even Creative sees that
> and nowadays a lot of logic is actually in their Windows drivers, not
> so much in their sound cards.

And once again you go on and on about "modern" and "these days", and are
completely dismissive of "Right now" and "Yesterday".

No one but you cares. End users want what they use now and have owned
for years, to work and continue to work.

I have a Vortex 2 sound card. It's *ten* years old now. It's PCI. It
outputs four channels of 16-bit output. It's output quality is
excellent. It has an optical output. It can mix and resample something
like 32 channels *in hardware*. It has hardware 10-band digital EQ. And
of course it can do HRTF in hardware but there's little chance of that
ever getting supported at this point. :P (Do we even do HRTF in Fedora
with "todays" MMX and SSE? No.)

It's drivers are rock stable, and have been for years. Which is more
than I can say for snd_intel8x0...

Sound is an area where a ten year old card still matches or exceeds
anything you end up with today. Sound is not a constant upgrade
treadmill. Stop treating it like one.
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From dr.diesel at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 16:20:49 2009
From: dr.diesel at gmail.com (Dr. Diesel)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:20:49 -0400
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <2a28d2ab0904260920h3db96ffas93b663f92b99ce0a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:

>
>
> And once again you go on and on about "modern" and "these days", and are
> completely dismissive of "Right now" and "Yesterday".
>
> No one but you cares. End users want what they use now and have owned
> for years, to work and continue to work.
>
> I have a Vortex 2 sound card. It's *ten* years old now. It's PCI. It
> outputs four channels of 16-bit output. It's output quality is
> excellent. It has an optical output. It can mix and resample something
> like 32 channels *in hardware*. It has hardware 10-band digital EQ. And
> of course it can do HRTF in hardware but there's little chance of that
> ever getting supported at this point. :P (Do we even do HRTF in Fedora
> with "todays" MMX and SSE? No.)
>
> It's drivers are rock stable, and have been for years. Which is more
> than I can say for snd_intel8x0...
>
> Sound is an area where a ten year old card still matches or exceeds
> anything you end up with today. Sound is not a constant upgrade
> treadmill. Stop treating it like one.
>
>
+1


-- 
projecthuh.com
All of my bits are free, are yours?  Fedoraproject.org
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From fedora.lists at burns.me.uk  Sun Apr 26 16:22:34 2009
From: fedora.lists at burns.me.uk (Andy Burns)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:22:34 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <psccc6-kta.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
References: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240592832.8696.1510.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<a2e85ed0904241030r4cf00a75s40670db156416a87@mail.gmail.com>
	<66ec675b0904241055g46fc623ct9330ab456c6ac760@mail.gmail.com>
	<psccc6-kta.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
Message-ID: <b4057d410904260922y3cc50170jf2d0ae7791f601c4@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/25 Matej Cepl <mcepl at redhat.com>:

> On 2009-04-24, 17:55 GMT, Joonas Saraj?rvi wrote:
>> Things I like about Pulseaudio:
>
> I got almost a heart attack when Windows 7 Beta (yeah I know,
> I am just curious about our enemy ;-)) in KVM guest machine
> started to play sounds to my speakers! (totally out of the box,
> I did not even know it is possible) Is it possible to do
> something like that without PA?

I found that when a centOS KVM guest was running, my mythTV on the
host OS couldn't play any sounds, I honestly can't remember if I had
removed pluseaudio or not (not because it's bad but merely because I
don''t need its features on what was originally a dedicated HTPC box).



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Sun Apr 26 16:25:22 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:25:22 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090426154331.GE660@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240744667.21153.1003.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090426154331.GE660@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240763122.21153.1259.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 17:43 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Yes, there will always be missing entries in the DB. The same way as
> there always will be missing quirks in the kernel driver.  That's
> something we need to accept. But there is no need to conclude from
> that that it is necessary to expose the full alsa mixer all the
> time --

Absolutely. I don't think anyone would suggest that we want to expose
the full alsa mixer all the time. That would be horrid. Did anyone
suggest that?

>  the same way it is not necessary to install gcc, patch, git
> and the kernel sources just because the kernel drivers might need
> quirks, too.

I think that's a good analogy. We don't just declare use cases to be
uninteresting and refuse to support them in the kernel -- we add quirks,
so the user can make things work properly. The user retains full
control.

We should be allowing the user to retain full control of the mixer too
-- they definitely shouldn't need to use it in the _default_ case, but
there should be _some_ way for them to fix things when we don't get it
right. Preferably in such a way that we can learn from what they've
done, improve our database and get it right for similar machines in the
future.

I don't think we achieve that by throwing our toys out of the pram and
refusing to contemplate the notion of letting the user fix things
through the panel applet or the tool they can launch from it.

It sucks that we're forcing the user to go through the application menus
to find an alternative, when there ought to be some kind of quirk or
"stuff isn't working right!" button or menu or something in the place
the user will actually be _looking_.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 16:26:00 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:26:00 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <gt158r$kje$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gt158r$kje$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240763160.5771.246.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 10:16 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > E: module.c: Failed to load  module "module-alsa-sink" (argument:
> > "control=PCM"): initialization failed.
> 
> Try putting (double) quotes around "PCM".

Well holy crap it works! Thanks, Lennart!
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From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Sun Apr 26 16:28:34 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:28:34 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 11:15 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > Today we have MMX and SSE and similar CPU extensions. The very reason
> > we have them is to do signal processing with them. Such as
> > implementing mixing, volume adjustments, equalizers, and other filters
> > in them -- in high digital quality. Ironically even Creative sees that
> > and nowadays a lot of logic is actually in their Windows drivers, not
> > so much in their sound cards.
> 
> And once again you go on and on about "modern" and "these days", and are
> completely dismissive of "Right now" and "Yesterday".

I'm not sure about 'yesterday', but I can certainly speak about 'three
days ago'. That's when my father's new laptop arrived.

I'd just installed the flash player and was making sure YouTube worked,
when I realised that I can't actually turn the sound up enough to hear
it over the radio unless I install and run gnome-alsamixer and turn the
'Front' slider up...

My MacBook Pro has the same issue, but that's _months_ old now so
presumably it's more acceptable that it doesn't work right without
gnome-alsamixer?

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 16:32:21 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:32:21 +0200
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240735132.21153.805.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240696706.2919.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240697729.5771.108.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240735132.21153.805.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <20090426163220.GF660@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 09:38, David Woodhouse (dwmw2 at infradead.org) wrote:

> > > > This thing has certainly spun far out of my control, and no longer even
> > > > has much to do with what I wanted in the first place.
> > > 
> > > Unfortunately it wasn't just your needs we were trying to address in the
> > > meeting.
> 
> People will always need access to mixer controls. One set of people will
> need them because they want to do things that the PulseAudio folks call
> "weird", like using that line-in socket on the side of their laptop, or
> playing CDs without chewing CPU time doing all those strange unreliable
> heuristics we do to knit audio back together when we rip it off a CD. Or
> turning their speakers on or off. Or setting the relative levels of bass
> and mid-range speakers. Or any number of other things.

Come one. You are misleading people. And you know that. 

You say I would call it weird if you wanted to use the line-in
socket. I never said that. Recording from line-in is perfectly valid
and not weird. What I did say however is that using the input feedback
functionality of your sound card as a way to connect two machines to a
single set of speakers is an exotic usage I don't see the need for to
expose in the UI.

And you claim that I'd consider it weird that folks want to "play CDs
without chewing CPU time doing all those strange unreliable heuristics
we do to knit audio back together when we rip it off a CD". This is
misleading too: *none* of the applications which can do CD playback we
install by default even supports the 'analog path' which you are
apparently referring to. And looking further even the ones which are
not installed by default mostly don't do that anymore. I checked
Nautilus, Rhythmbox, Banshee, Sound Juicer. In addition, ripping CDs
for immediate playback is not as problematic anymore as you claim. It
was in the early nineties. But that's over. Also, most modern sound
cards don't even have the CD slider anymore, or even an input to
connect a cable from the CD drive. And modern CD drives don't have
that output for that cable either. Also, if you'd go the 'analog path'
you lose the ability to play from USB cds, to USB speakers, to BT
headphones, to spdif. You lose the ability to have more than one CD to
play from. And so on and so on. CD playing via the 'analog path' is
OBSOLETE! And it would be a PITA to expose in the UI -- about 0.0001%
of the population would even notce the difference and would be able to
tell the system which path to take. 

Next thing you claim is that I say it was weird wanting to turn your
speakers on/off. I never said that. What I did say is that it is an
exotic usage to have simultaneous playback of the same stream on your
laptop speakers and on you headphones. Also, your hardware has an
autmatic logic to switch over playback to your headset when you plug
them in. What you asked me for is to expose the ability to override
that logic. That is just exotic. And that's it. Plain
exotic. Switching your speakers on/off is done via the mute checkbox
and that is perfectly well supported. 

All three issues you keep repeating here are really really exotic
uses. And you ask us to support them by default. And I closed your
requests as FIXME due to their exoticness, referring you to low-level
mixers which exist plentiful in Fedora. And that's the absolutely
right thing to do.

And let me emphasize the following:

 _The fact that you try to mislead people the way you do, shows that you
 don't even believe yourself that the points you raise are valid enough
 to convince people._

> Other people need it just to get optimal use out of their hardware in
> the "non-weird" cases. Although we're building up a hardware database
> which tells us which of those sliders in the alsa-mixer-of-doom actually
> do useful things, it can never be completely accurate and up to date.
> People will _always_ be able to do better by experimenting for
> themselves.

Some people will. And they can install a low-level ALSA mixer and go
for it. There is not need to install that by default, clutter the UI
with it.

When will you ever get it: I AM NOT LIMITING IN ANY WAY HOW YOU MAY
USE YOUR SOUND HARDWARE. I AM JUST SAYING IT IS EXOTIC AND DOESN'T
NEED TO BE EXPOSED BY DEFAULT. Is that so hard to understand?

I am not taking your freedom away!

> For example, if I want to get the best audible volume out of my laptop,
> I may need to tweak the various mixer levels _just_ low enough to avoid
> clipping, and the levels required depend on a lot of things -- including
> the analogue circuitry in _this_ particular machine, and the ears of the
> people present in the room. That information isn't going to be in the
> database.

Actually, ALSA can be very helpful with that since on most hw they
expose dB values which you can be used to set to 0dB for the inner
volume controls.

Thing is that you are asking to have the old g-v-c back WHICH DOESN'T
EVEN SHOW dB VALUES!

What we suggest instead is that the ALSA database sets those sliders
to 0dB by default -- which it does fine for the majority of hardware.

If you'd really care about the quality of your audio you'd allow ALSA
to adjust the levels to 0dB fo you instead of twiddling with those
values yourself.

> We have to accept that there are _always_ going to be cases where users
> want better control over the mixer.

Yes, there are always cases where things don't work that well by
default. To fix those cases we have bug trackers or tools to track down
those issues which can be installed on-demand. 

>   (Obviously not just by adding more sliders; it needs to be possible
>   for users to enable what they _need_ without just showing them the
>   alsa-mixer-of-doom by default. I'm not really qualified to give a
>   detailed suggestion on _how_ it's done -- that's a UI decision which I
>   wish the UI experts would address. I wish they _wouldn't_ try to
>   address it by simply declaring these uses out of Fedora's scope.
>   That's a policy decision which I think it's properly within FESCo's
>   mandate to decide.)

Ah, thanks. You give us the liberty to do whatever we want as long as
it is exactly what you want. Thanks for that freedom!

> It's even more suboptimal that this app is hidden in the menus and not
> accessible from the panel. As far as the F-10 user is concerned, this
> functionality is just _gone_ from the place it used to be; I'm not sure
> they'll think to go looking around in the application menus to find it
> again.

?????

Dude, this is getting more ridiculous with every word you say.

Now you asking that there is a quick-access applet that exposes three
completely exotic things?

a) the ability to connect two machines to a single set of speakers

b) the ability to control the analog path for audio cd playback where
   we don't even have a program that could initiate that cd playback
   for you

c) the ability to have the same stream on your headphones and your
   internal laptop speakers.

You must be kidding me!

> To be honest, I think the best option at this stage would really have
> been to revert the VolumeControl feature for F-11, and to say "come back
> and try again in F-12, and please do a better job next time". But I
> definitely don't think we have FESCo consensus on _that_, so I didn't
> push it very hard.

Yes, and I think the best option at this stage would be to finally
agree that the points you raise are bogus. And that FESCO would revert
the decision pushed through by you.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 16:34:44 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:34:44 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <gt12q4$hom$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<gt12q4$hom$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240763684.5771.253.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 09:34 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> David Woodhouse wrote:
> > The proposals I've seen to work around PulseAudio's problems have been
> > ridiculous -- running audio over the network using PulseAudio,
> > introducing a bunch of latency which wouldn't otherwise be there, was a
> > stupid suggestion even if the other box wasn't running Windows.
> 
> FYI, PulseAudio also runs on Window$.
> http://www.cendio.com/pulseaudio/

Does that come with DirectSound drivers so World of Warcraft will feed
through it?

... Though I still don't see why network latency and packet loss are
more desirable than a single analog patch cable. Also my IAudio U3
doesn't have ethernet, or wireless...
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From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 16:36:16 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:36:16 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240763122.21153.1259.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240744667.21153.1003.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090426154331.GE660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240763122.21153.1259.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <20090426163616.GG660@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 17:25, David Woodhouse (dwmw2 at infradead.org) wrote:

> >  the same way it is not necessary to install gcc, patch, git
> > and the kernel sources just because the kernel drivers might need
> > quirks, too.
> 
> I think that's a good analogy. We don't just declare use cases to be
> uninteresting and refuse to support them in the kernel -- we add quirks,
> so the user can make things work properly. The user retains full
> control.
> 
> We should be allowing the user to retain full control of the mixer too
> -- they definitely shouldn't need to use it in the _default_ case, but
> there should be _some_ way for them to fix things when we don't get it
> right. Preferably in such a way that we can learn from what they've
> done, improve our database and get it right for similar machines in the
> future.

Ah, now you admit that the low-level alsa mixer is not necessary for
the default case. So why do you want to push it into the default
install then?

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 16:37:35 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:37:35 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240763684.5771.253.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<gt12q4$hom$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240763684.5771.253.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090426163735.GH660@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 11:34, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 09:34 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > The proposals I've seen to work around PulseAudio's problems have been
> > > ridiculous -- running audio over the network using PulseAudio,
> > > introducing a bunch of latency which wouldn't otherwise be there, was a
> > > stupid suggestion even if the other box wasn't running Windows.
> > 
> > FYI, PulseAudio also runs on Window$.
> > http://www.cendio.com/pulseaudio/
> 
> Does that come with DirectSound drivers so World of Warcraft will feed
> through it?
> 
> ... Though I still don't see why network latency and packet loss are
> more desirable than a single analog patch cable. Also my IAudio U3
> doesn't have ethernet, or wireless...

Not sure what kind of cheap cabling you have. But packet loss on local
ethernet is near zero.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 16:43:13 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:43:13 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090426164313.GI660@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 11:15, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> > Today we have MMX and SSE and similar CPU extensions. The very reason
> > we have them is to do signal processing with them. Such as
> > implementing mixing, volume adjustments, equalizers, and other filters
> > in them -- in high digital quality. Ironically even Creative sees that
> > and nowadays a lot of logic is actually in their Windows drivers, not
> > so much in their sound cards.
> 
> And once again you go on and on about "modern" and "these days", and are
> completely dismissive of "Right now" and "Yesterday".

Wow. So you are running your stuff on a CPU without SSE? I am impressed!

> No one but you cares. End users want what they use now and have owned
> for years, to work and continue to work.

Uh, didn't we recently switch to i586 as minimal architecture of
Fedora?

Also, by focussing on the newer, simpler hw our stuff still should
work fine on the older hw that has all kinds of little 'features' we
don't rely on.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From ndbecker2 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 16:52:00 2009
From: ndbecker2 at gmail.com (Neal Becker)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:52 -0400
Subject: gcc-4.4 optimizations question
Message-ID: <gt23fg$ndr$1@ger.gmane.org>

I saw this on gcc devel ML:

------------
On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, David Ronis wrote:

> >From the info pages it seems that the new optimizations,
> -floop-interchange, -floop-strip-mine, and -floop-block, are NOT turned
> on when -O3 is specified.  Is this correct and if so, why aren't they?

Because the behavior of -O3 must not depend on whether optional libraries 
are linked into GCC, and we did not decide to make PPL and CLooG required 
to build GCC, so -O3 cannot enable any optimizations using optional 
libraries.

Joseph S. Myers
joseph at codesourcery.com
-------------

Does our gcc-4.4 have these optional libs?





From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 17:04:27 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:04:27 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090426164313.GI660@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090426164313.GI660@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240765468.5771.275.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 18:43 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Sun, 26.04.09 11:15, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:
> 
> > > Today we have MMX and SSE and similar CPU extensions. The very reason
> > > we have them is to do signal processing with them. Such as
> > > implementing mixing, volume adjustments, equalizers, and other filters
> > > in them -- in high digital quality. Ironically even Creative sees that
> > > and nowadays a lot of logic is actually in their Windows drivers, not
> > > so much in their sound cards.
> > 
> > And once again you go on and on about "modern" and "these days", and are
> > completely dismissive of "Right now" and "Yesterday".
> 
> Wow. So you are running your stuff on a CPU without SSE? I am impressed!

Well, I do have an Athlon 1.4gz machine. Thunderbird core, so no SSE. It
just so happens it's the "secondary" Windows XP box that's at the center
of this controversy.

It has a Radeon 9800SE in it, and I use it to play World of Warcraft.

> > No one but you cares. End users want what they use now and have owned
> > for years, to work and continue to work.
> 
> Uh, didn't we recently switch to i586 as minimal architecture of
> Fedora?

Once again you are misdirecting the conversation. CPU's *are* an upgrade
treadmill. Cutting off CPUs (i386/i486) that are something like *15* or
more years old at this point isn't completely unreasonable. We are in
fact highly conservative in that we didn't just go i686+ five years ago,
like some wanted...
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From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Sun Apr 26 17:04:20 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:04:20 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090426163616.GG660@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240744667.21153.1003.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090426154331.GE660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240763122.21153.1259.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090426163616.GG660@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240765460.21153.1294.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 18:36 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Ah, now you admit that the low-level alsa mixer is not necessary for
> the default case. So why do you want to push it into the default
> install then?

I said it _shouldn't_ be. We're still a long way even from that state.

As I said: on the two machines I've tried so far, I haven't even been
able to turn the volume up to its full level without having to resort to
gnome-alsamixer.

I believe that the VolumeControl 'feature' for F-11 isn't ready for
prime time yet, and should be reverted. We can try again in F-12.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 17:06:06 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:06:06 -0500
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090426163220.GF660@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com> <1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240696706.2919.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240697729.5771.108.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240735132.21153.805.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090426163220.GF660@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240765566.5771.276.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 18:32 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>  _The fact that you try to mislead people the way you do, shows that you
>  don't even believe yourself that the points you raise are valid enough
>  to convince people._

Lennart is Eric Cartman.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 17:10:30 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:10:30 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090426163735.GH660@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240439615.14173.748.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<gt12q4$hom$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240763684.5771.253.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090426163735.GH660@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240765830.5771.277.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 18:37 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Sun, 26.04.09 11:34, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 09:34 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > > David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > > The proposals I've seen to work around PulseAudio's problems have been
> > > > ridiculous -- running audio over the network using PulseAudio,
> > > > introducing a bunch of latency which wouldn't otherwise be there, was a
> > > > stupid suggestion even if the other box wasn't running Windows.
> > > 
> > > FYI, PulseAudio also runs on Window$.
> > > http://www.cendio.com/pulseaudio/
> > 
> > Does that come with DirectSound drivers so World of Warcraft will feed
> > through it?
> > 
> > ... Though I still don't see why network latency and packet loss are
> > more desirable than a single analog patch cable. Also my IAudio U3
> > doesn't have ethernet, or wireless...
> 
> Not sure what kind of cheap cabling you have. But packet loss on local
> ethernet is near zero.

And wireless?
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From jwboyer at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 17:10:01 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:10:01 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240761751.2770.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<20090425172434.GE12588@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F3F0C1.9020603@gmail.com>
	<1240761751.2770.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090426171001.GA18790@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 12:02:31PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 22:27 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
>
>> Now I'm not on FESCo and I'm not on the desktop team, so what do the
>> real stakeholders here think?  Desktop team, do you get enough value
>> from being the default spin to outweigh the extra burden of satisfying
>> everyone who thinks of the Desktop Spin as the Fedora Distribution?
>> FESCo, if the desktop team says they want a spin of their own to
>> control, are you willing to figure out a different spin (or different
>> method) for telling user's what the Fedora Distribution is?
>
>The fundamental problem is that nobody knows what Fedora is. It gets
>constantly torn into different directions, and as a result, makes nobody
>happy. See recent board agendas ("What is Fedora")...

While I disagree with the conclusion you made, I do agree that nobody has a
clear definition of what Fedora as an _OS_ is.  What the Board is addressing
is slightly different, as it is tackling what Fedora is from a project view.

FESCo should be taking that overall direction from the Board and making sure
the technical composition of the default Fedora distro release puts forth the
best approximation of those higher level goals.

That is not to say that other spins are of lesser value.  But you make a good
point in that the current spins situation is a bit confusing for end-users.

josh



From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 16:48:55 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:48:55 -0500
Subject: [SOLVED] Re: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240763160.5771.246.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240318205.4333.3238.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gt158r$kje$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240763160.5771.246.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240764536.5771.264.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 11:26 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 10:16 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > > E: module.c: Failed to load  module "module-alsa-sink" (argument:
> > > "control=PCM"): initialization failed.
> > 
> > Try putting (double) quotes around "PCM".
> 
> Well holy crap it works! Thanks, Lennart!

For those playing along at home, the full solution is:

Copy /etc/pulse/default.pa to ~/.pulse/ . You have to copy the whole
thing and edit or PA doesn't work.

Look for this line:

### Load audio drivers statically (it's probably better to not load
### these drivers manually, but instead use module-hal-detect --
### see below -- for doing this automatically)
#load-module module-alsa-sink

Uncomment it and edit it to something like:

load-module module-alsa-sink device=hw:M5455,0 control="PCM"

The device= thing is technically optional, but if you don't put it in
you just see "dmix:0" in the UI. You probably don't want pulseaudio
going through dmix anyway.

As Lennart pointed out, you can look in /proc/asound/cards to find the
name of your card, so you don't have to hard code indexes:

$ cat /proc/asound/cards 
 0 [M5455          ]: ICH - ALi M5455
                      ALi M5455 with ALC850 at irq 18
 1 [au8830         ]: au8830 - Aureal Vortex au8830
                      Aureal Vortex au8830 at 0xea000000 irq 20
10 [UART           ]: MPU-401 UART - MPU-401 UART
                      MPU-401 UART at 0x330, irq 10
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From a.badger at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 17:07:11 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:07:11 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240761751.2770.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>	<20090425172434.GE12588@localhost.localdomain>	<49F3F0C1.9020603@gmail.com>
	<1240761751.2770.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F494BF.8000300@gmail.com>

Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 22:27 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> 
>> Now I'm not on FESCo and I'm not on the desktop team, so what do the
>> real stakeholders here think?  Desktop team, do you get enough value
>> from being the default spin to outweigh the extra burden of satisfying
>> everyone who thinks of the Desktop Spin as the Fedora Distribution?
>> FESCo, if the desktop team says they want a spin of their own to
>> control, are you willing to figure out a different spin (or different
>> method) for telling user's what the Fedora Distribution is?
> 
> The fundamental problem is that nobody knows what Fedora is. It gets
> constantly torn into different directions, and as a result, makes nobody
> happy. See recent board agendas ("What is Fedora")...
> 

I think this is a bit of a distraction.  The Board is discussing what
Fedora the Project is.  Fedora the Distribution is very concretely
specified by what's on the get-fedora page.

Now, what Fedora the Project is does affect what Fedora the Distribution
 is but not in the same way as the concrete package set that gets run on
your computer.  The Board could say "Fedora is a project that aims at
making computers as easy to use as possible" and we'd still be having
this discussion about which packages on the default spin fulfill that
vision.

-Toshio

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From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 17:22:09 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:22:09 +0200
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240765566.5771.276.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240696706.2919.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240697729.5771.108.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240735132.21153.805.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090426163220.GF660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240765566.5771.276.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090426172209.GA18060@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 12:06, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 18:32 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> >  _The fact that you try to mislead people the way you do, shows that you
> >  don't even believe yourself that the points you raise are valid enough
> >  to convince people._
> 
> Lennart is Eric Cartman.

Thanks a lot for this on-topic well-versed technical comment!

This certainly helps to further increase your and fedora-devel's
reputation as being the places to go for good and constructive
technical discussions!

I wished you were more like Kenny.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From jakub at redhat.com  Sun Apr 26 17:24:01 2009
From: jakub at redhat.com (Jakub Jelinek)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:24:01 +0200
Subject: gcc-4.4 optimizations question
In-Reply-To: <gt23fg$ndr$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gt23fg$ndr$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090426172401.GE5781@tyan-ft48-01.lab.bos.redhat.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 12:52:00PM -0400, Neal Becker wrote:
> I saw this on gcc devel ML:
> 
> ------------
> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, David Ronis wrote:
> 
> > >From the info pages it seems that the new optimizations,
> > -floop-interchange, -floop-strip-mine, and -floop-block, are NOT turned
> > on when -O3 is specified.  Is this correct and if so, why aren't they?
> 
> Because the behavior of -O3 must not depend on whether optional libraries 
> are linked into GCC, and we did not decide to make PPL and CLooG required 
> to build GCC, so -O3 cannot enable any optimizations using optional 
> libraries.
> 
> Joseph S. Myers
> joseph at codesourcery.com
> -------------
> 
> Does our gcc-4.4 have these optional libs?

Yes, it does (though, I've patched it a little bit, so that cc1/cc1plus/f951
etc. aren't unconditionally linked against -lcloog -lppl -lppl_c -lm -lstdc++ -lgmpxx
libs cloog/ppl depend on, but instead dlopens libcloog.so.0 when the
graphite optimizations are used (-floop-block, -floop-interchange,
-floop-strip-mine, -fgraphite-identity or -fgraphite)).

	Jakub



From remy.maucherat at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 17:29:57 2009
From: remy.maucherat at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9my_Maucherat?=)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:29:57 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 6:28 PM, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 at infradead.org> wrote:
> I'm not sure about 'yesterday', but I can certainly speak about 'three
> days ago'. That's when my father's new laptop arrived.
>
> I'd just installed the flash player and was making sure YouTube worked,
> when I realised that I can't actually turn the sound up enough to hear
> it over the radio unless I install and run gnome-alsamixer and turn the
> 'Front' slider up...
>
> My MacBook Pro has the same issue, but that's _months_ old now so
> presumably it's more acceptable that it doesn't work right without
> gnome-alsamixer?

Great, so you personally experience one bug, and since you happen to
be on a technical board, you use that privilege to impose your own
little solution to your personal problems. Neat case of blatant power
abuse.

R?my



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 17:34:15 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:34:15 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240765830.5771.277.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<gt12q4$hom$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240763684.5771.253.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090426163735.GH660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240765830.5771.277.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090426173415.GB18060@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 12:10, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> > > ... Though I still don't see why network latency and packet loss are
> > > more desirable than a single analog patch cable. Also my IAudio U3
> > > doesn't have ethernet, or wireless...
> > 
> > Not sure what kind of cheap cabling you have. But packet loss on local
> > ethernet is near zero.
> 
> And wireless?

I thought you were comparing audio cables with ethernet cables. 

But now that I see that you want to compare audio cables with wireless
ethernet then I am pretty sure you can see what the advantage of
wireless connections is -- the fct that they are wireless.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 17:36:45 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:36:45 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <gt15at$kje$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net> 
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net> 
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de> 
	<1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gt15at$kje$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e76492710904261036p6b8816a0me6aab12f7180e19a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 4:17 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> Seriously, given hundreds of threads in fedoraforum, people
>> complaining about pulseaudio, we do need to discuss how to remove
>> pulseaudio from Fedora (not whether we should remove it).
>
> PulseAudio is not going away. Sorry.
>
> ? ? ? ?Kevin Kofler

Oh, sooner or later it will. We will not let Linux die because of this crap.

I consider this first wave to be successful as it made some people
aware of the situation. 6 months from now when the F-12 is about to be
released, if the pulseaudio is still crap (and I'm pretty sure it will
be), the second wave will be more brutal. Remember that.

Orcan



From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 17:37:56 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:37:56 -0500
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240735132.21153.805.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com> <1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240696706.2919.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240697729.5771.108.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240735132.21153.805.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <1240767476.5771.283.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 09:38 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > Just sayin'. I'm sure not getting anything out of this so far.
> 
> Callum, I'm sorry we didn't address the panel issue. I wanted to talk
> about the panel, but it quickly became clear there wasn't sufficient
> consensus on that.

For the record, [SOLVED]:

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg02164.html

Now I can go back to doing something productive. Like play WoW...
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Sun Apr 26 17:39:09 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:39:09 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240767549.2969.2.camel@vaio.local.net>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 19:29 +0200, R?my Maucherat wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 6:28 PM, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 at infradead.org> wrote:
> > I'm not sure about 'yesterday', but I can certainly speak about 'three
> > days ago'. That's when my father's new laptop arrived.
> >
> > I'd just installed the flash player and was making sure YouTube worked,
> > when I realised that I can't actually turn the sound up enough to hear
> > it over the radio unless I install and run gnome-alsamixer and turn the
> > 'Front' slider up...
> >
> > My MacBook Pro has the same issue, but that's _months_ old now so
> > presumably it's more acceptable that it doesn't work right without
> > gnome-alsamixer?
> 
> Great, so you personally experience one bug, and since you happen to
> be on a technical board, you use that privilege to impose your own
> little solution to your personal problems. Neat case of blatant power
> abuse.

No, he encountered two bugs. We have had at least ten different reports
of this type of bug to this list and -test-list. I have seen at least
nine reports of this type of bug on fedoraforums. We have also had
several manifestations reported to Bugzilla either as separate reports
or comments on the initial bug I filed on this issue.

And that's _just people running F11 pre-releases who are sufficiently
motivated to complain about it_. That's a very high level of complaint
reporting within such a small group. Multiply it out to everyone who
will use the final F11 release and what you have is an extremely large
group of users.

If anyone remains to be convinced I'll send a follow-up email with
explicit links to every separate report of a problem of this type that
I've seen.
-- 
Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
Red Hat



From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 17:41:24 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:41:24 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240767684.5771.286.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 19:29 +0200, R?my Maucherat wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 6:28 PM, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 at infradead.org> wrote:
> > I'm not sure about 'yesterday', but I can certainly speak about 'three
> > days ago'. That's when my father's new laptop arrived.
> >
> > I'd just installed the flash player and was making sure YouTube worked,
> > when I realised that I can't actually turn the sound up enough to hear
> > it over the radio unless I install and run gnome-alsamixer and turn the
> > 'Front' slider up...
> >
> > My MacBook Pro has the same issue, but that's _months_ old now so
> > presumably it's more acceptable that it doesn't work right without
> > gnome-alsamixer?
> 
> Great, so you personally experience one bug, and since you happen to
> be on a technical board, you use that privilege to impose your own
> little solution to your personal problems. Neat case of blatant power
> abuse.

How do *you* propose to get things done?

Clearly, dwmw2 is the only person in the entire world who owns a MacBook
Pro.
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From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 17:44:39 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:44:39 +0200
Subject: [SOLVED] Re: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240764536.5771.264.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240338178.30902.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240362612.30902.261.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240429892.18570.240.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090422233140.GA31926@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240514357.720.135.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gt158r$kje$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240763160.5771.246.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240764536.5771.264.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090426174439.GC18060@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 11:48, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> load-module module-alsa-sink device=hw:M5455,0 control="PCM"

Please don't use hw: as device string prefix. Use 'front:' or
'surround41:' or something like that. 'hw:' gives you the naked device
and implies no particular channel order or number of
channels. The other mentioned strings do imply that and hence work
everywhere and not just on one specific piece of hardware.

Please only specify card identifiers, not device indexes. I.e. drop
the ",0" from the device string. Specifying device indexes gives you
the naked device and implies no specific output. If you use "front:"
or "spdif:" a particular output is implied and hence the proper device
automatically selected for you which makes this work on more than once
specific piece of hardware.

In summary, use 'device=front:M5455" as parameter.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 17:48:24 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:48:24 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <1240763122.21153.1259.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de> 
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de> 
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de> 
	<1240744667.21153.1003.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090426154331.GE660@tango.0pointer.de> 
	<1240763122.21153.1259.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <e76492710904261048p28ad8ba8m1073a857474e5d87@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 12:25 PM, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 17:43 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> Yes, there will always be missing entries in the DB. The same way as
>> there always will be missing quirks in the kernel driver. ?That's
>> something we need to accept. But there is no need to conclude from
>> that that it is necessary to expose the full alsa mixer all the
>> time --
>
> Absolutely. I don't think anyone would suggest that we want to expose
> the full alsa mixer all the time. That would be horrid. Did anyone
> suggest that?
>

I did. But that was before I noticed that there are people who don't
want to have full control on their sound hardware, and this still
sounds weird to me.

Maybe that's because I'm an audio oriented "minority". Who knows...

Orcan



From dimi at lattica.com  Sun Apr 26 17:49:03 2009
From: dimi at lattica.com (Dimi Paun)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:49:03 -0400
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <6d959d480904251321i77afdad1ve76d0adf7caeab71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240614299.3955.265.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090425013807.GD32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6d959d480904251321i77afdad1ve76d0adf7caeab71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240768143.8696.4461.camel@dimi.lattica.com>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 22:21 +0200, R?my Maucherat wrote:
> Why is such developer abuse acceptable of this dev list ? Isn't there
> any code of conduct here ?

Indeed. Does that include rules for not sending insulting private
messages as the (first) response to a message sent on the list?

-- 
Dimi Paun <dimi at lattica.com>
Lattica, Inc.



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 17:50:01 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:50:01 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240767549.2969.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
References: <1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240767549.2969.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090426175001.GD18060@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 10:39, Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) wrote:

> 
> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 19:29 +0200, R?my Maucherat wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 6:28 PM, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 at infradead.org> wrote:
> > > I'm not sure about 'yesterday', but I can certainly speak about 'three
> > > days ago'. That's when my father's new laptop arrived.
> > >
> > > I'd just installed the flash player and was making sure YouTube worked,
> > > when I realised that I can't actually turn the sound up enough to hear
> > > it over the radio unless I install and run gnome-alsamixer and turn the
> > > 'Front' slider up...
> > >
> > > My MacBook Pro has the same issue, but that's _months_ old now so
> > > presumably it's more acceptable that it doesn't work right without
> > > gnome-alsamixer?
> > 
> > Great, so you personally experience one bug, and since you happen to
> > be on a technical board, you use that privilege to impose your own
> > little solution to your personal problems. Neat case of blatant power
> > abuse.
> 
> No, he encountered two bugs. We have had at least ten different reports
> of this type of bug to this list and -test-list. I have seen at least
> nine reports of this type of bug on fedoraforums. We have also had
> several manifestations reported to Bugzilla either as separate reports
> or comments on the initial bug I filed on this issue.
> 
> And that's _just people running F11 pre-releases who are sufficiently
> motivated to complain about it_. That's a very high level of complaint
> reporting within such a small group. Multiply it out to everyone who
> will use the final F11 release and what you have is an extremely large
> group of users.

I am pretty sure those 21 reports you are speaking of have the same or
maybe two or three different hardware models. Fixing the alsa db once
for all three of them is clearly more constructive than pushing in a
second volume control tool.

After all F11 ain't released yet. Fixes like adding more entries to
the db should certainly still be possible.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Sun Apr 26 17:51:22 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:51:22 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240767684.5771.286.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240767684.5771.286.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090426175122.GE18060@tango.0pointer.de>

On Sun, 26.04.09 12:41, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:

> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 19:29 +0200, R?my Maucherat wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 6:28 PM, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 at infradead.org> wrote:
> > > I'm not sure about 'yesterday', but I can certainly speak about 'three
> > > days ago'. That's when my father's new laptop arrived.
> > >
> > > I'd just installed the flash player and was making sure YouTube worked,
> > > when I realised that I can't actually turn the sound up enough to hear
> > > it over the radio unless I install and run gnome-alsamixer and turn the
> > > 'Front' slider up...
> > >
> > > My MacBook Pro has the same issue, but that's _months_ old now so
> > > presumably it's more acceptable that it doesn't work right without
> > > gnome-alsamixer?
> > 
> > Great, so you personally experience one bug, and since you happen to
> > be on a technical board, you use that privilege to impose your own
> > little solution to your personal problems. Neat case of blatant power
> > abuse.
> 
> How do *you* propose to get things done?
> 
> Clearly, dwmw2 is the only person in the entire world who owns a MacBook
> Pro.

A great idea would be to add an entry to the alsa db for the macbook!

And whoops the problem is fixed for all macbooks.

See, it's *that* easy.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From awilliam at redhat.com  Sun Apr 26 18:02:34 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:02:34 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090426175001.GD18060@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240767549.2969.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<20090426175001.GD18060@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240768954.2969.6.camel@vaio.local.net>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 19:50 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:

> > And that's _just people running F11 pre-releases who are sufficiently
> > motivated to complain about it_. That's a very high level of complaint
> > reporting within such a small group. Multiply it out to everyone who
> > will use the final F11 release and what you have is an extremely large
> > group of users.
> 
> I am pretty sure those 21 reports you are speaking of have the same or
> maybe two or three different hardware models. Fixing the alsa db once
> for all three of them is clearly more constructive than pushing in a
> second volume control tool.
> 
> After all F11 ain't released yet. Fixes like adding more entries to
> the db should certainly still be possible.

I don't share your confidence :). But certainly they should be fixed,
and I'll be making sure they're properly identified and reported to
either b.r.c or ALSA. But also credit me with a little foresight.

I would be extremely surprised if the release of F11 - the first general
audience release with this new mixer - does not expose many more
manifestations of this type of bug. Once we've had one general audience
release to flush all those bugs out of the woodwork and get them all
*fixed*, we can drop the fallback mixer, as I've been saying all along.
But I think if you want to believe that when we release F11 to the vast
variety of audio hardware in the world, we'll only see two or three of
this kind of bug...you're taking a very Panglossian outlook.
-- 
Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
Red Hat



From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 18:05:52 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:05:52 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <20090426173415.GB18060@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240440819.22084.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221618l6e1c55b7i5c7737881f8c7155@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240447132.2487.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904221839t377cc41ar10d23218775e28e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F008B7.7020506@fedoraproject.org>
	<1240472493.3632.238.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<gt12q4$hom$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240763684.5771.253.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090426163735.GH660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240765830.5771.277.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090426173415.GB18060@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240769152.5771.291.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 19:34 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Sun, 26.04.09 12:10, Callum Lerwick (seg at haxxed.com) wrote:
> 
> > > > ... Though I still don't see why network latency and packet loss are
> > > > more desirable than a single analog patch cable. Also my IAudio U3
> > > > doesn't have ethernet, or wireless...
> > > 
> > > Not sure what kind of cheap cabling you have. But packet loss on local
> > > ethernet is near zero.
> > 
> > And wireless?
> 
> I thought you were comparing audio cables with ethernet cables. 
> 
> But now that I see that you want to compare audio cables with wireless
> ethernet then I am pretty sure you can see what the advantage of
> wireless connections is -- the fct that they are wireless.
Touch?.
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From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Sun Apr 26 18:22:07 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:22:07 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240770127.30259.27.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 19:29 +0200, R?my Maucherat wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 6:28 PM, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 at infradead.org> wrote:
> > I'm not sure about 'yesterday', but I can certainly speak about 'three
> > days ago'. That's when my father's new laptop arrived.
> >
> > I'd just installed the flash player and was making sure YouTube worked,
> > when I realised that I can't actually turn the sound up enough to hear
> > it over the radio unless I install and run gnome-alsamixer and turn the
> > 'Front' slider up...
> >
> > My MacBook Pro has the same issue, but that's _months_ old now so
> > presumably it's more acceptable that it doesn't work right without
> > gnome-alsamixer?
> 
> Great, so you personally experience one bug, and since you happen to
> be on a technical board, you use that privilege to impose your own
> little solution to your personal problems. Neat case of blatant power
> abuse.

I'm not sure what world you come from, in which the elected members of
FESCo always do my bidding like good little minions... but when you go
back there, can I go with you?

If that had been the case and you weren't entirely full of nonsense,
they'd have supported my proposal to revert the VolumeControl 'feature'
from F-11 entirely.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From seg at haxxed.com  Sun Apr 26 18:35:09 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:35:09 -0500
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240735132.21153.805.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com> <1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240696706.2919.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240697729.5771.108.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240735132.21153.805.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <1240770909.5771.294.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 09:38 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 17:15 -0500, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > Just sayin'. I'm sure not getting anything out of this so far.
> 
> Callum, I'm sorry we didn't address the panel issue. I wanted to talk
> about the panel, but it quickly became clear there wasn't sufficient
> consensus on that.

...And thanks for being the level headed advocate I failed to be. :)
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From bruno at wolff.to  Sun Apr 26 18:57:14 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:57:14 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240767549.2969.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
References: <1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240767549.2969.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090426185714.GA5312@wolff.to>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 10:39:09 -0700,
  Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> 
> If anyone remains to be convinced I'll send a follow-up email with
> explicit links to every separate report of a problem of this type that
> I've seen.

I didn't file a bug, but I had the problem. I ended up finding the
reference to alsamixer with google, because I started looking before
this issue started showing up on the lists. And I only suspected it
might be a configuration issue because I was running rawhide on two
machines, one of which had a normal sound level and the other one which
was barely audible.



From drago01 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 19:20:31 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:20:31 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240768954.2969.6.camel@vaio.local.net>
References: <1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240767549.2969.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<20090426175001.GD18060@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240768954.2969.6.camel@vaio.local.net>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904261220j27f164bage8ad30cf87564f22@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:

> I would be extremely surprised if the release of F11 - the first general
> audience release with this new mixer -

Afaik Ubuntu 9.04 ships with this mixer by default. (its upstream
gnome after all).



From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Sun Apr 26 20:11:38 2009
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:11:38 +0300
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904261048p28ad8ba8m1073a857474e5d87@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240397076.4333.3991.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904232218220.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>	<20090423205057.GA29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240744667.21153.1003.camel@macbook.infradead.org>	<20090426154331.GE660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240763122.21153.1259.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<e76492710904261048p28ad8ba8m1073a857474e5d87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F4BFFA.6060201@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 04/26/2009 08:48 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 12:25 PM, David Woodhouse wrote:
>   
>> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 17:43 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>     
>>> Yes, there will always be missing entries in the DB. The same way as
>>> there always will be missing quirks in the kernel driver.  That's
>>> something we need to accept. But there is no need to conclude from
>>> that that it is necessary to expose the full alsa mixer all the
>>> time --
>>>       
>> Absolutely. I don't think anyone would suggest that we want to expose
>> the full alsa mixer all the time. That would be horrid. Did anyone
>> suggest that?
>>
>>     
>
> I did. But that was before I noticed that there are people who don't
> want to have full control on their sound hardware, and this still
> sounds weird to me.
>
> Maybe that's because I'm an audio oriented "minority". Who knows...
>   
I am not audio oriented, I am just a regular user who wants to be able 
to see youtube clips, listen to some classic music, use VoIP and maybe 
see a movie once in a while. And no, I could not do that using only the 
_defaults_ from F10. I had to spend 2 days reading docs from the PA's 
website, install half a dozen pav* and pa* packages and plugins, notice 
that none of them is useful and finally switch to alsamixer in order to 
be able to increase the level of the front mic (and just as in Will's 
case, I alsoneeded to really raise the global output level to a value 
which made the sound loud enough; for the first days I almost believed 
that my shiny new MB is broken because with the output maxed out via 
pavucontrol, it was barely audible. only after using alsamixer did I 
notice that there existed yet another knob which - surprise surprise - 
solved the issue)



From awilliam at redhat.com  Sun Apr 26 20:38:53 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:38:53 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <f6ca9fed0904261220j27f164bage8ad30cf87564f22@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240767549.2969.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<20090426175001.GD18060@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240768954.2969.6.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<f6ca9fed0904261220j27f164bage8ad30cf87564f22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240778333.2969.7.camel@vaio.local.net>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 21:20 +0200, drago01 wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> 
> > I would be extremely surprised if the release of F11 - the first general
> > audience release with this new mixer -
> 
> Afaik Ubuntu 9.04 ships with this mixer by default. (its upstream
> gnome after all).

OK, first *Fedora* general audience release, sorry :). Of course, Ubuntu
shipping it will just help unearth even more bugs...
-- 
Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
Red Hat



From roland at redhat.com  Sun Apr 26 20:41:56 2009
From: roland at redhat.com (Roland McGrath)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:41:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Problem with build-id and cycling the free pascal compiler
In-Reply-To: Joost van der Sluis's message of  Saturday,
	25 April 2009 15:53:48 +0200 <1240667628.31161.14.camel@wsjoost>
References: <1240667628.31161.14.camel@wsjoost>
Message-ID: <20090426204156.7431DFC3B6@magilla.sf.frob.com>

We should figure out why they are different.  (Off hand I don't think this
issue should have changed in the build tools since F10.)

Can you give me two binaries they you think ought to be identical, but
which had different build IDs generated?

I want to get to the bottom of the problem before you change anything.

But I'll note that if you were to use --build-id=none then you'd have your
rpm build break in the find-debuginfo.sh stage because of missing a build ID.
However, --build-id=0x00000000000000000000 (or any 20 hex digits you choose)
will hard-code that bogus build-ID during your link stages.  That will make
your comparisons fine if your binaries are really identical.  Then, the
find-debuginfo.sh stage will regenerate the build IDs after it edits the
source file names in the DWARF information.

But let's find the real source of the problem and fix it rather than
working around it.


Thanks,
Roland



From chung at engr.orst.edu  Sun Apr 26 23:27:10 2009
From: chung at engr.orst.edu (chung at engr.orst.edu)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:27:10 -0700
Subject: Open source and diagramming survey
Message-ID: <20090426162710.20672cvzx40s9hog@webmail.oregonstate.edu>

Dear open source contributors,

I am Eunyoung Chung, a Masters student working with Dr. Jensen at
Oregon State University.

We are currently doing a research project in collaboration with Dr.
Truong and Ph.D student Koji Yatani at University of Toronto. Our goal
is to understand how contributors communicate and collaborate in Open
Source Software (OSS) projects, including diagramming practices.

We are seeking volunteers for a quick survey on this topic. Any person
who is actively working on a OSS project is eligible. The survey takes
approximately 10-15 minutes, and the 5 volunteers will be picked to
receive a $30 Amazon gift certificate. Your participation is anonymous
(unless you consent to have us contact you)

Here is the survey address.

https://secure.engr.oregonstate.edu/limesurvey/58564/lang-en

We really appreciate your help!



From kevin at scrye.com  Mon Apr 27 00:10:32 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:10:32 -0600
Subject: RFE: Add -p to the diff options to provide more context in
 commit mails
In-Reply-To: <20090423183541.41be4f57@dhcp-100-2-144.bos.redhat.com>
References: <20090423183541.41be4f57@dhcp-100-2-144.bos.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090426181032.49b69b75@ohm.scrye.com>

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:35:41 -0400
Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com> wrote:

> This trivial patch adds more context to the diffs in commit mails:
> 
> --- CVSROOT.orig/syncmail
> +++ CVSROOT/syncmail
> @@ -147,7 +147,7 @@ def calculate_diff(filespec):
>          brief = ""
>          if optNoDiff:
>              brief = "--brief"
> -        diffcmd = '/usr/bin/cvs -f diff %s -kk -u -N -r %s -r %s %s'
> % (
> +        diffcmd = '/usr/bin/cvs -f diff %s -kk -u -p -N -r %s -r %s
> %s' % ( brief,
>              oldrev, newrev, file)
>          fp = os.popen(diffcmd)
> 

This looks nice to me... Since we are in a change freeze tho, we will
need to get it approved on the infrastructure list. 

Shall we just wait until after release, or would you like me to request
the change now?

kevin
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From kevin at scrye.com  Mon Apr 27 00:13:31 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:13:31 -0600
Subject: Request to become Provenpackager
In-Reply-To: <20090424204426.GD4978@free.fr>
References: <1240051368.9043.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<adf480660904180352r3612430r67d22529dec88c7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090418140028.1945bdc1@faldor.intranet>
	<5256d0b0904241238n328303aepff236e1fa9e9c3f0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240604017.3104.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424201716.GB4978@free.fr>
	<1240604457.3104.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424204426.GD4978@free.fr>
Message-ID: <20090426181331.21690f32@ohm.scrye.com>

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:44:26 +0200
Patrice Dumas <pertusus at free.fr> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:20:57PM +0300, Jussi Lehtola wrote:
> > 
> > My only question is: what do we do about dead reviews?
> 
> Maybe there should be a variant of
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Policy_for_stalled_package_reviews#Submitter_not_responding
> After the comment, the ticket should not closed, but the issue
> should be reported to FESCo who should force a co-maintainership
> or even reset ownership after a call on the devel mailing list
> (like an orphan process).

Yeah, we should figure out all the differences between regular requests
and merge reviews. For example: 

- Should make sure the current maintainer is cc'ed. 
- Should Look at open bugs on the package and see if any are packaging
  related and could be handled at the same time as the review. 
- Some procedure based on above about submitters not responding. 
etc.

> Pat

kevin
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From kevin at scrye.com  Mon Apr 27 00:18:24 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:18:24 -0600
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240681077.11465.9.camel@vaio.local.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com> <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<20090425172434.GE12588@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240681077.11465.9.camel@vaio.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090426181824.3c5d9e1e@ohm.scrye.com>

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 10:37:57 -0700
Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 13:24 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
...snip...
> > So again, I propose adding gnome-alsamixer to the %packages in
> > Installation DVD kickstart, and leave the Desktop Live CD as-is.
...snip...
> and the problem came up at least five separate times across this list
> and fedora-test-list too. There are clearly many many people who
> *need* access to this functionality. It's not just bit-twiddlers.

I would like to add that I have seen this in #fedora a good deal as
well of late. Our pulseaudio fixes page is consistently in the top 5
links used every week on the channel. 

I would hope that having something in the menus to work around this
would reduce support burden, and end use frustration. 

Also, we often tell folks to try out the live cd, the live cd is what
is given away at events, etc. So I think this is something that many
people will use/see on first install. 

kevin
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From kevin at scrye.com  Mon Apr 27 00:24:04 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:24:04 -0600
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F3F0C1.9020603@gmail.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com> <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<20090425172434.GE12588@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F3F0C1.9020603@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090426182404.5f2f1d3d@ohm.scrye.com>

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:27:29 -0700
Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger at gmail.com> wrote:
...snip...
> FESCo, if the desktop team says they want a spin of their own to
> control, are you willing to figure out a different spin (or different
> method) for telling user's what the Fedora Distribution is?

I can't answer for FESCo, but I think this could be very hard to do. 

We could have a 'default' and a 'desktop' spins, but would the amount
of changes between them justify confusing our users more? 

Would this default use Gnome? If so, how different would it be from the
desktop spin?

I personally wouldn't object to making it more clear that there were
various spin choices, but the difficulty is how to present them
clearly.

> -Toshio

kevin

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From bruno at wolff.to  Mon Apr 27 01:25:32 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:25:32 -0500
Subject: Open source and diagramming survey
In-Reply-To: <20090426162710.20672cvzx40s9hog@webmail.oregonstate.edu>
References: <20090426162710.20672cvzx40s9hog@webmail.oregonstate.edu>
Message-ID: <20090427012531.GB15302@wolff.to>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 16:27:10 -0700,
  chung at engr.orst.edu wrote:
>
>                                        Your participation is anonymous
> (unless you consent to have us contact you)
>
> Here is the survey address.
>
> https://secure.engr.oregonstate.edu/limesurvey/58564/lang-en

That doesn't look too anonymous to me. Why is it that survey takers always
say their surveys are anonymous, but don't actually provide anonymity.

Just say that you won't be collecting names or contact information and leave
it at that.

If you want to provide real anonymity, advertise a tor hidden service
(http://www.torproject.org/docs/tor-hidden-service.html.en).
Even then the answers to your questions may still enable people to identify
someone (or limit the subjects to a small group) after the fact, depending on
the questions.



From dennisml at conversis.de  Mon Apr 27 02:40:50 2009
From: dennisml at conversis.de (Dennis J.)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:40:50 +0200
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
Message-ID: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>

Hi,
I'm seeing 2.6.29 packages for f10 showing up on koji for a while now but 
they never end up as a real update. Is there any particular reason for that?

Regards,
   Dennis



From kevin at scrye.com  Mon Apr 27 02:52:40 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:52:40 -0600
Subject: Virtualization comps group in f11
Message-ID: <20090426205240.679ed459@ohm.scrye.com>

A user on #fedora noted that they installed the Virtualization group,
but couldn't get any vm's to install or work. 

We tracked it down to them not having qemu installed. 

Looks like the f11 comps file still lists 'qemu-kvm' in the
Virtualization group, and not any of the qemu packages. ;( 
Even tho there is a Provides: qemu-kvm in qemu-system-x86, groupinstall
doesn't seem to pull it in. 

- Is there a unexpected yum behavior here? Or is a virtual provides not
  allowed in a comps group?

- Should we just change the 'qemu-kvm' to 'qemu' in the f11-comps? 

kevin
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From berrange at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 08:47:29 2009
From: berrange at redhat.com (Daniel P. Berrange)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:47:29 +0100
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <gt0tqo$9gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240522347.16854.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsqukv$orq$1@ger.gmane.org> <gt0tqo$9gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090427084729.GA5117@redhat.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 08:09:28AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> > Our requirements are that one build environment produces one package
> > containing both 32- and 64-bit binaries.
> 
> If you're talking about RPM packages, that's completely broken, an x86_64
> RPM is supposed to only contain x86_64 stuff (and it won't install on
> 32-bit systems), and an i386 RPM definitely must not contain 64-bit stuff.

As Rich mentions, there's a tricky situation with virtualization around,
and with cross-compilation/emulation.  For QEMU we've had to jump through
some nasty hoops to build the firmware/BIOS files. ie, the QEMU i686
emulator is built on all Fedora archs, but building the BIOS files to
actually make it work needs an i686 host. So we have to build on one
arch, get the built blobs and then include these pre-built files in a
second build done for the non-x86 archs. Similar fun building PPC, sparc
blobs on i686, etc. 


Daniel
-- 
|: Red Hat, Engineering, London   -o-   http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :|
|: http://libvirt.org  -o-  http://virt-manager.org  -o-  http://ovirt.org :|
|: http://autobuild.org       -o-         http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
|: GnuPG: 7D3B9505  -o-  F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505 :|



From berrange at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 09:12:26 2009
From: berrange at redhat.com (Daniel P. Berrange)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:12:26 +0100
Subject: Virtualization comps group in f11
In-Reply-To: <20090426205240.679ed459@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <20090426205240.679ed459@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <20090427091226.GC5117@redhat.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 08:52:40PM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> A user on #fedora noted that they installed the Virtualization group,
> but couldn't get any vm's to install or work. 
> 
> We tracked it down to them not having qemu installed. 
> 
> Looks like the f11 comps file still lists 'qemu-kvm' in the
> Virtualization group, and not any of the qemu packages. ;( 
> Even tho there is a Provides: qemu-kvm in qemu-system-x86, groupinstall
> doesn't seem to pull it in. 
> 
> - Is there a unexpected yum behavior here? Or is a virtual provides not
>   allowed in a comps group?
> 
> - Should we just change the 'qemu-kvm' to 'qemu' in the f11-comps? 

There's two options, we can default to installing the whoile of QEMU
which includes all arch emulators and KVM (eg, the qemu RPM), or 
default to just the x86 emulators (which includes KVM, but only if
non an x86 host - we qemu-system-x86 RPM).   I think its probably 
worth going for 'qemu-system-x86'  in comps, because the non-x86
archs are not really used very much and quite alot less stable.

Daniel
-- 
|: Red Hat, Engineering, London   -o-   http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :|
|: http://libvirt.org  -o-  http://virt-manager.org  -o-  http://ovirt.org :|
|: http://autobuild.org       -o-         http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
|: GnuPG: 7D3B9505  -o-  F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505 :|



From johannbg at hi.is  Mon Apr 27 09:54:42 2009
From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:54:42 +0000
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
Message-ID: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>

In the resent discussion regarding "audio" and to further enhance the 
project and to
allow all desktop environment projects to play on a fair ground 
regardless if they are old
grown and known projects or new and emerging one and thus being able to 
compete on a fair
ground amongst them self's in the form of live spins and to prevent any 
misunderstanding that
an issue regarding one desktop environments might be present and or 
affect all of them and thus
have negative impact on all the desktop environments we currently ship.

I propose that we stop referring to and ship a "Default desktop" but 
instead will start
referring to their project name instead.

AFAIK what would be required to accomplish this is change all 
documentation and filenames to refer to Gnome desktop instead of Default 
desktop, Fedora desktop or just Desktop and make minor changes to Anaconda.

We probably would want to create a new Wiki page that would have a brief 
description and a download link to their live spin.

The desktop environments spins along with all other spins should be 
under the projects total control unless they're content violates 
Fedoraproject in any way or form.

This requires the Fedora Board and or FESCO to neither enhance or hinder 
a projects growth/content/decision on the projects corresponding spin.

I hope the community can keep this discussion strictly on the 
professional notes and finally will reach consciousness regarding my 
proposal.

Best regards

            JBG

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From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 09:56:30 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:56:30 +0100
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240697516.5771.105.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904241136.05736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<1240697516.5771.105.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904271056.30661.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Saturday 25 April 2009 23:11:56 Callum Lerwick wrote:
[lots of comment about how broken OpenID 2.0 is in his opinion]

How about, uh, taking it up with the OpenID people then?





From bochecha at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 27 10:02:06 2009
From: bochecha at fedoraproject.org (Mathieu Bridon (bochecha))
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:02:06 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
Message-ID: <2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

> I propose that we stop referring to and ship a "Default desktop" but instead
> will start
> referring to their project name instead.
>
> AFAIK what would be required to accomplish this is change all documentation
> and filenames to refer to Gnome desktop instead of Default desktop, Fedora
> desktop or just Desktop and make minor changes to Anaconda.

You would also have to make it so that the "GNOME desktop" group is
not checked by default when installing with a DVD (change in comps.xml
if I'm not mistaken)

But wait, that means that a new user without any skill will have no
desktop installed if he doesn't check this box himself. I'm not sure
the effect on them will be positive ;)

IMHO, we need to have a checked checkbox bu default in installation,
which means we need to choose a desktop environment and make it the
default.

That doesn't mean we treat other desktop environments as if they were
second class citizens, but that's not the point you are raising here.

Regards,


----------

Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 10:05:59 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:05:59 +0100
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240705746.5771.196.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904251544y1f6ee387s80e64080cf71d737@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240705746.5771.196.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200904271106.00189.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Sunday 26 April 2009 01:29:05 Callum Lerwick wrote:
...
> Different OpenID providers are kind of like different states. Or like
> IDs from different countries. Passports. Whatever makes sense to you.
> Different organizations that have agreed to trust each other to vouch
> for their own citizens.

And, to go back to the earlier discussion, that suggests that each website 
*might* wish to decide which OpenID providers they trust. Otherwise the "ID" 
provided by OpenID becomes relatively meaningless, because anyone could create 
an OpenID provider when it suited them, leave lots of spam, then destroy it.



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 10:06:37 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:06:37 +0100
Subject: FOSS needs a central bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <gt0uh0$9gb$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <6e24a8e80904201539j6ca55ba8h7a950d63bf83d7c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904241136.05736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<gt0uh0$9gb$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904271106.37929.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Sunday 26 April 2009 07:21:20 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Bill Crawford wrote:
> > Google is taking advantage of a feature in OpenID 2.0 known as "Directed
> > Identity". This allows an OpenID 2.0 Relying Party to start the OpenID
> > protocol flow using a known URL (Yahoo!'s is http://openid.yahoo.com/) to
> > allow for "one click" style login dialogues. By performing discovery on
> > this URL, using the XRDS XML format, the OpenID Provider advertises the
> > OpenID Endpoint URL for the Relying Party to make a request against.
> > Google is doing this correctly with the URL to perform discovery against
> > being https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id.
>
> And how are the sites supposed to know this URL? By hardcoding a list of
> such URLs? (Yuck! That pretty much defeats the point of OpenID and brings
> us back to a hardcoded list of ID providers.) Or by asking the user to
> paste it? (Even worse, now the user has to paste an obscure URL *and* enter
> their e-mail address rather than just pasting an obscure URL, what problem
> does that solve?)
>
>         Kevin Kofler

Again, please take it up with Google or the OpenID people :o)



From andreas at bawue.net  Mon Apr 27 10:10:15 2009
From: andreas at bawue.net (Andreas Thienemann)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:10:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <20090427084729.GA5117@redhat.com>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240522347.16854.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsqukv$orq$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<gt0tqo$9gb$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090427084729.GA5117@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0904271205270.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:

> As Rich mentions, there's a tricky situation with virtualization around,
> and with cross-compilation/emulation.  For QEMU we've had to jump through
> some nasty hoops to build the firmware/BIOS files. ie, the QEMU i686
> emulator is built on all Fedora archs, but building the BIOS files to
> actually make it work needs an i686 host. So we have to build on one
> arch, get the built blobs and then include these pre-built files in a
> second build done for the non-x86 archs. Similar fun building PPC, sparc
> blobs on i686, etc. 

I remember the OpenMoko build scripts needing similar tricks where (I 
think) localization and some other files had to be built on a native arm 
system.

They ended up using qemu in user mode emulation to have a "native"  
system.

Maybe that's a solution for your bios file needs as well?

regards,
 andreas



From m.a.young at durham.ac.uk  Mon Apr 27 10:15:07 2009
From: m.a.young at durham.ac.uk (M A Young)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:15:07 +0100 (BST)
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Dennis J. wrote:

> I'm seeing 2.6.29 packages for f10 showing up on koji for a while now but 
> they never end up as a real update. Is there any particular reason for that?

I imagine that the intention is to go to 2.6.29 on f10 at some point, but 
there are still issues to fix before it is ready for general release. For 
example one such issue that is now solved is that 2.6.29 uses a different 
version of squashfs to the one in f10, which meant that things such as 
liveCDs would cease to work (this was solved by adding the code for the 
earlier version of squashfs to 2.6.29), but there may be other things that 
still need to be resolved.

 	Michael Young



From xjakub at fi.muni.cz  Mon Apr 27 10:30:00 2009
From: xjakub at fi.muni.cz (Milos Jakubicek)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:30:00 +0200
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <49F58928.6090201@fi.muni.cz>

Dennis J. wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm seeing 2.6.29 packages for f10 showing up on koji for a while now 
> but they never end up as a real update. Is there any particular reason 
> for that?
> 
> Regards,
>   Dennis

It is already present in updates-testing (2.6.29.1-30), and 2.6.29-1.42 
is heading to go there soon too:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/kernel-2.6.29.1-42.fc10

Regards,
Milos




From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:26:35 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:26:35 +0100
Subject: Pulseaudio breakage in F11
In-Reply-To: <20090426152108.GC660@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240519142.8696.219.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<gt17pi$qma$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426152108.GC660@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <200904271326.36163.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Sunday 26 April 2009 16:21:08 Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Sun, 26.04.09 10:59, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kofler at chello.at) wrote:
> > But the OSS compatibility layer you get by default is provided by
> > ALSA, and it only handles exclusive access to the hardware, no
> > mixing.
>
> That is actually not true anymore. In-kernel OSS is disabled now in
> F11.
>
> I am actually surprised that noone of the usual suspects started a
> huge thread about this yet on fedora-devel. It'd make good fodder for
> the trolls. May I feed those folks their lines? "Oh my, we're no real
> Unix anymore!", "Oh my, my 1992 closed source tool still needs it."

Well, the story was that they would simply not be loaded by default, not that 
they would be completely removed and thus not available to "modprobe".

The "usual suspects" of course would be people who disagree with you, as usual.

Annoyingly, you can actually be helpful when you aren't sidetracked by noticing 
that someone's hardware is "obsolete" or that their use case isn't "minority".



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:27:38 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:27:38 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <gt19q4$u7m$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F202BC.5090206@cchtml.com> <gt19q4$u7m$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904271327.38330.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Sunday 26 April 2009 10:33:55 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> > Making things easier to use is great -- but restricting UIs to only have
> > an "easy mode" 100% of the time isn't for everyone.
>
> Agreed entirely, but why are you using GNOME if you're feeling like that?
> GNOME is intentionally that way. Try KDE.
>
>         Kevin Kofler

s/KDE/KDE3.5/ ;o)



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:29:04 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:29:04 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <6d959d480904250934h1fb12465ue60b55866d4a188c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904251714.07573.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<6d959d480904250934h1fb12465ue60b55866d4a188c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904271329.04618.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Saturday 25 April 2009 17:34:25 R?my Maucherat wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Bill Crawford
>
> <billcrawford1970 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday 25 April 2009 03:39:43 R?my Maucherat wrote:
> >> Reading the IRC log, the Fesco members technical arguments sound
> >> limited, and do focus on legacy use cases. That's really 10 years old
> >> stuff (CD line in - PC speaker was mentioned too - unused for me in
> >> that timeframe ...), so if this does not represent less than 5% of
> >> users, I wonder what will.
> >
> > This is one of the most annoying attitudes throughout this debate. I
> > still use a CD line-in on my soundcard. It might be "10 years old" stuff
> > ... my sound card is 7 years old. But it *still works* ... why should I
> > not use it?
>
> - one less cable
> - much lower quality
> - newer readers do not have that output anymore

... doesn't skip if the IDE interface gets some heavy traffic, or my CPU is 
briefly very overloaded?



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:30:01 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:30:01 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <6d959d480904251321i77afdad1ve76d0adf7caeab71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6d959d480904251321i77afdad1ve76d0adf7caeab71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904271330.02074.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Saturday 25 April 2009 21:21:39 R?my Maucherat wrote:
...
> Why is such developer abuse acceptable of this dev list ? Isn't there
> any code of conduct here ? Why don't you go vent off on your blog or
> in the Fedora forums ?

Perhaps because the people concerned feel that some attitudes presented are 
themselves "abusive" and want to complain?




From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:31:23 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:31:23 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090425224218.GA14858@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090425224218.GA14858@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <200904271331.24105.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Saturday 25 April 2009 23:42:18 Lennart Poettering wrote:
...
> And no, we have no hard numbers about anything our end users want. I
> know your hubris and stuff but uh, sorry, in contrast to what you may
> believe I don't think that you are representative for the mythical end
> user of Fedora. You are just a very very vocal minority.

No hard numbers? You seem awfully confident that you know best, then ...



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:35:29 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:35:29 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <200904271335.29273.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Sunday 26 April 2009 16:15:17 Lennart Poettering wrote:

> Uh. We certainly can get rid of them. Many of the more modern HDA
> designs got rid of the entire volume control logic and instead
> increased the PCM bit depth to 24 bit everywhere of which the usual 4-8
> bit headroom can be used for volume control. In ALSA these are all
> those devices where the 'softvol' module does volume control.

Sure, that's great. But why can't you see that I'm not going to run out and buy 
a new sound card (with less functionality than my existing one) just because 
you declare it's "obsolete"?

This is what is the most unbelievable thing. You won't understand that some 
people don't have the financial resources to go replace everything NOW. And not 
all fedora installs are being done on brand new hardware. I for one am stuck 
with what I have in my workplace for quite some time, very few companies would 
upgrade it just because I complain that PulseAudio can't support it ;o)



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:37:14 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:37:14 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904271337.15038.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Sunday 26 April 2009 18:29:57 R?my Maucherat wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 6:28 PM, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 at infradead.org> wrote:
> > I'm not sure about 'yesterday', but I can certainly speak about 'three
> > days ago'. That's when my father's new laptop arrived.
> >
> > I'd just installed the flash player and was making sure YouTube worked,
> > when I realised that I can't actually turn the sound up enough to hear
> > it over the radio unless I install and run gnome-alsamixer and turn the
> > 'Front' slider up...
> >
> > My MacBook Pro has the same issue, but that's _months_ old now so
> > presumably it's more acceptable that it doesn't work right without
> > gnome-alsamixer?
>
> Great, so you personally experience one bug, and since you happen to
> be on a technical board, you use that privilege to impose your own
> little solution to your personal problems. Neat case of blatant power
> abuse.

...

s/personally experience/know from the mailing list that others have also 
experienced/ possibly?

> R?my





From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:38:55 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:38:55 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090426164313.GI660@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090426164313.GI660@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <200904271338.56124.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Sunday 26 April 2009 17:43:13 Lennart Poettering wrote:

> Also, by focussing on the newer, simpler hw our stuff still should
> work fine on the older hw that has all kinds of little 'features' we
> don't rely on.

... except it won't, always.



From remy.maucherat at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:41:43 2009
From: remy.maucherat at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9my_Maucherat?=)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:41:43 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <200904271330.02074.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6d959d480904251321i77afdad1ve76d0adf7caeab71@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904271330.02074.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6d959d480904270541p33fd505bg4a3dc553b53eece3@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Bill Crawford
<billcrawford1970 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps because the people concerned feel that some attitudes presented are
> themselves "abusive" and want to complain?

All I know is that you are a whiner and a spammer :) Any abuse you
might get is well deserved.

R?my



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Mon Apr 27 12:54:33 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:54:33 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <200904271331.24105.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090425224218.GA14858@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904271331.24105.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090427125433.GB510@tango.0pointer.de>

On Mon, 27.04.09 13:31, Bill Crawford (billcrawford1970 at gmail.com) wrote:

> 
> On Saturday 25 April 2009 23:42:18 Lennart Poettering wrote:
> ...
> > And no, we have no hard numbers about anything our end users want. I
> > know your hubris and stuff but uh, sorry, in contrast to what you may
> > believe I don't think that you are representative for the mythical end
> > user of Fedora. You are just a very very vocal minority.
> 
> No hard numbers? You seem awfully confident that you know best, then ...

Uh? What brings you to that conclusion?

Are you claiming there are hard numbers about how our end users feel?
I don't see where those should be coming from. Nobody has been doing
any research in the area. It's questionnable if it would even be
possible to gather any information who our end users are and how they
feel, or if it even would be a consistent image we could get.

I know that Callum Lerwick thinks he is representative for our
mythical end user. I doubt that, in fact I *know* that he is not,
given that the feedback I otherwise get sounds very different from the
"Fuck you" from Mr. Lerwick.

Also, you shouldn't believe that the new volume control is solely the
product of *my* ill mind. I wrote the low-level support for it in PA,
but Bastien and Jon wrote the actual tool with input from others.

You seem to want to make this something personal. But uh, you are
wrong. The new volume control is the result of the work of a number
of people from the desktop group at RH and others.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From mzerqung at 0pointer.de  Mon Apr 27 13:09:36 2009
From: mzerqung at 0pointer.de (Lennart Poettering)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:09:36 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <200904271335.29273.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904271335.29273.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090427130936.GD510@tango.0pointer.de>

On Mon, 27.04.09 13:35, Bill Crawford (billcrawford1970 at gmail.com) wrote:

> 
> On Sunday 26 April 2009 16:15:17 Lennart Poettering wrote:
> 
> > Uh. We certainly can get rid of them. Many of the more modern HDA
> > designs got rid of the entire volume control logic and instead
> > increased the PCM bit depth to 24 bit everywhere of which the usual 4-8
> > bit headroom can be used for volume control. In ALSA these are all
> > those devices where the 'softvol' module does volume control.
> 
> Sure, that's great. But why can't you see that I'm not going to run out and buy 
> a new sound card (with less functionality than my existing one) just because 
> you declare it's "obsolete"?

Oh, stop it.

I didn't tell you that the older hw is obsolete. I am just saying that
the trend goes towards simpler sound cards and moving the remaining
stuff into the CPU by using SSE, MMX, 3DNOW and so on, which were
designed for purposes like that in the first place. Oh, and let's not
forget that simple stuff like mixing and digital attenuation is easily
done on MMX/SSE/3DNOW-less hardware too.

And since that's the trend and you can treat older sound cards the
same way as newer ones by ignoring all those extra 'features' they had
I see no need in supporting those explicitly, they are redundant.

> This is what is the most unbelievable thing. You won't understand that some 
> people don't have the financial resources to go replace everything NOW. And not 
> all fedora installs are being done on brand new hardware. I for one am stuck 
> with what I have in my workplace for quite some time, very few companies would 
> upgrade it just because I complain that PulseAudio can't support it ;o)

This is annoying. I have reports from PA working OK in tiny ARM based
routers as well as on older ISA cards. PA supports older/more limited
hw just fine. Maybe some codepaths are not perfectly optimized for
them but that's not a systematic problem. Always happy to take patches!

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net         ICQ# 11060553
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Mon Apr 27 13:08:04 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:08:04 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904240819x2eea773em9eaeb361eff436da@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240288142.14092.239.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904231236q67512626xe5183984a3464dce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240517821.14173.785.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904240201.27631.surenkarapetyan@gmail.com>
	<20090423214823.GF29486@tango.0pointer.de>
	<e76492710904231458x3ddc67aeka5dbc0cdf1923f49@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240582455.24529.322.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<e76492710904240819x2eea773em9eaeb361eff436da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240837684.30259.72.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 11:19 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> 
> 
> David,
> Had CA worked for me in just one case out of so many, I wouldn't
> complain so strongly. Recently it started damaging my wife's data on
> her computer (just hard-reboot your computer as if it was frozen 5
> times a day for a month. I'm confident that you'll lose some data at
> some point). I'm glad I shut it off before it damaged the hardware.
> 
> It is harmful. It is 100% crap. OK, maybe 99.999%, since it works for
> you guys.

I didn't say it worked for me. It doesn't -- in rawhide I can't even
turn the speakers up past about 80% of what they can do in F-10, and
many apps just silently (no pun intended) fail to make any noise when
they start up -- either because they fail to connect to PA, or because
PA either marks them as muted or sets their volume to zero.

The panel applet and the hotkeys in my GNOME session have stopped
working completely, too.

What I said is that I'm determined to persevere with it.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From karsten at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 14:15:27 2009
From: karsten at redhat.com (Karsten Hopp)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:15:27 +0200
Subject: RFE: Makefile.common patch to error out when no spec is present
In-Reply-To: <20090424155448.47d55388@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <20090424155448.47d55388@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <49F5BDFF.4020208@redhat.com>

Am 24.04.2009 23:54, schrieb Kevin Fenzi:
> Greetings.
>
> I know some of you have run into this situation:
>
> If you have a package where there is no *.spec file present and you try
> to run any of the fedora cvs Makefile.common targets, nothing happens
> and the command just hangs.
>
> Turns out it's doing a grep of the spec file to figure out if the
> package is noarch or not. When there is no spec file the grep hangs.
>
> Here's a very hacky patch that should at least error out in this case.
>
> Makefile hackers welcome to provide a better one.
>
> kevin
> --
> Index: Makefile.common
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /cvs/extras/common/Makefile.common,v
> retrieving revision 1.127
> diff -u -r1.127 Makefile.common
> --- Makefile.common	15 Apr 2009 04:57:41 -0000	1.127
> +++ Makefile.common	24 Apr 2009 21:15:03 -0000
> @@ -35,6 +35,9 @@
>
>   BUILD_FLAGS ?= $(KOJI_FLAGS)
>
> +ifndef $(SPECFILE)
> +SPECFILE = "NO_SPEC_FILE_FOUND"
> +endif
>   LOCALARCH := $(if $(shell grep -i '^BuildArch:.*noarch' $(SPECFILE)), noarch, $(shell uname -m))
>
>   ## a base directory where we'll put as much temporary working stuff as we can
>


Looks like this is the week of Makefile.common patches, I have another one:


 >cvs diff -u Makefile.common
Index: Makefile.common
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvs/extras/devel/common/Makefile.common,v
retrieving revision 1.127
diff -u -r1.127 Makefile.common
--- Makefile.common     15 Apr 2009 04:57:41 -0000      1.127
+++ Makefile.common     27 Apr 2009 14:14:00 -0000
@@ -26,6 +26,10 @@
  #BRANCH:=$(shell cvs rlog rpms/$(NAME)/F-11/$(SPECFILE) >/dev/null 2>&1 && echo "F-12" || echo "devel")
  #endif
  BRANCHINFO = $(shell grep ^$(BRANCH): $(COMMON_DIR)/branches | cut -d: --output-delimiter=" " -f2-)
+ifeq (,$(BRANCHINFO))
+BRANCH:=$(shell pwd | awk -F '/' '{ print $$(NF-1) }' )
+BRANCHINFO = $(shell grep ^$(BRANCH): $(COMMON_DIR)/branches | cut -d: --output-delimiter=" " -f2-)
+endif
  TARGET := $(word 1, $(BRANCHINFO))
  DIST = $(word 2, $(BRANCHINFO))
  DISTVAR = $(word 3, $(BRANCHINFO))



This should fix builds from a single-distribution CVS tree which you can check out p.e. with 'cvs co F-11'.
This broke one year ago with Makefile.common cvs release 1.95 as those changes didn't consider the different
directory layout for the single-distribution CVS tree (p.e. it is .../vim/F-11 for the complete checkout but
.../F-11/vim when you check out just one single distribution)


    Karsten



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 27 14:21:37 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:21:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090427 changes
Message-ID: <20090427142137.C05941F81F9@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Mon Apr 27 06:15:03 UTC 2009

Summary:
Added Packages: 0
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 0
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.i386 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.x86_64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-3.fc10.ppc64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)





From katzj at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 14:23:20 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:23:20 -0400
Subject: Virtualization comps group in f11
In-Reply-To: <20090426205240.679ed459@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <20090426205240.679ed459@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <20090427142320.GA53261@redhat.com>

On Sunday, April 26 2009, Kevin Fenzi said:
> - Is there a unexpected yum behavior here? Or is a virtual provides not
>   allowed in a comps group?

The list of package names in groups of the  comps file are just that,
package names.  Provides, filenames, etc are not allowed[1]

Jeremy

[1] Well, they're allowed.  But they don't do anything since the
matching is just on package names and we ignore non-existent packages



From dennisml at conversis.de  Mon Apr 27 14:46:16 2009
From: dennisml at conversis.de (Dennis J.)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:46:16 +0200
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>

On 04/27/2009 12:15 PM, M A Young wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Dennis J. wrote:
>
>> I'm seeing 2.6.29 packages for f10 showing up on koji for a while now
>> but they never end up as a real update. Is there any particular reason
>> for that?
>
> I imagine that the intention is to go to 2.6.29 on f10 at some point,
> but there are still issues to fix before it is ready for general
> release. For example one such issue that is now solved is that 2.6.29
> uses a different version of squashfs to the one in f10, which meant that
> things such as liveCDs would cease to work (this was solved by adding
> the code for the earlier version of squashfs to 2.6.29), but there may
> be other things that still need to be resolved.

I guess I'm wondering why so much effort is put into this when by the time 
the kernel gets released for f10 it is already outdated and we are moving 
towards a f12 release which will end the support for f10 anyway.

If f10 and/or kernel 2.6.29 is going to be the baseline for RHEL 6 then I 
could see why such an effort is made but other than that, why bother?

Regards,
   Dennis



From giallu at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 14:47:41 2009
From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:47:41 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <f6ca9fed0904261220j27f164bage8ad30cf87564f22@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240767549.2969.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<20090426175001.GD18060@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240768954.2969.6.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<f6ca9fed0904261220j27f164bage8ad30cf87564f22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d5ad21470904270747g1a506d94m53c04d0192b1590b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 9:20 PM, drago01 <drago01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> I would be extremely surprised if the release of F11 - the first general
>> audience release with this new mixer -
>
> Afaik Ubuntu 9.04 ships with this mixer by default. (its upstream
> gnome after all).

From: http://www.hadess.net/2009/01/nb-it-doesnt-actually-look-like-that.html
Ubuntu's mixer applet is a different UI on the old mixer applet in
gnome-applets, and not the PulseAudio-powered volume applet now in
gnome-media.


-- 
Gianluca Sforna

http://morefedora.blogspot.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna



From MathStuf at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 14:57:56 2009
From: MathStuf at gmail.com (Ben Boeckel)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:57:56 -0400
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F202BC.5090206@cchtml.com> <gt19q4$u7m$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240761972.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gt4h5q$kok$1@ger.gmane.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Matthias Clasen wrote:

> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 11:33 +0200, Kevin Kofler 
wrote:
>> Michael Cronenworth wrote:
>> > Making things easier to use is great -- but 
restricting UIs to only
>> > have an "easy mode" 100% of the time isn't for 
everyone.
>> 
>> Agreed entirely, but why are you using GNOME if 
you're feeling like that?
>> GNOME is intentionally that way. Try KDE.
> 
> Kevin, do you think that is necessary, really ?
> Are you that desparate to sell KDE ?
> 
Why is it not a valid suggestion? Or anything out-of-
the-ordinary? If there were some other app with weird 
dependencies (Tcl/Tk, lisp, some other "obscure"/rare 
dep) that did this would it be out of the question of 
suggestion? GNOME is *NOT* the only DE on Fedora. If 
you're reacting to the wording, I wouldn't say that 
he's "desperate to sell KDE", but confrontational in 
his wording. The core of what he's saying is still a 
suggestion worth consideration (try KDE).

- --Ben
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From MathStuf at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 15:12:06 2009
From: MathStuf at gmail.com (Ben Boeckel)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:12:06 -0400
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904251714.07573.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<6d959d480904250934h1fb12465ue60b55866d4a188c@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904271329.04618.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt4i0e$ofu$1@ger.gmane.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bill Crawford wrote:

> On Saturday 25 April 2009 17:34:25 R?my Maucherat 
wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Bill Crawford
>>
>> <billcrawford1970 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Saturday 25 April 2009 03:39:43 R?my Maucherat 
wrote:
>> >> Reading the IRC log, the Fesco members technical 
arguments sound
>> >> limited, and do focus on legacy use cases. That's 
really 10 years old
>> >> stuff (CD line in - PC speaker was mentioned too 
- - unused for me in
>> >> that timeframe ...), so if this does not 
represent less than 5% of
>> >> users, I wonder what will.
>> >
>> > This is one of the most annoying attitudes 
throughout this debate. I
>> > still use a CD line-in on my soundcard. It might 
be "10 years old"
>> > stuff ... my sound card is 7 years old. But it 
*still works* ... why
>> > should I not use it?
>>
>> - one less cable
>> - much lower quality
>> - newer readers do not have that output anymore
> 
> ... doesn't skip if the IDE interface gets some heavy 
traffic, or my CPU
> is briefly very overloaded?
> 
I've had X lock up or temporarily freeze and kaffeine 
(playing through PA via xine) still plays. The only way 
I've been able to get it to skip is to force basically 
everything into swap with programs that take up 3+GB of 
RAM (making markov chains from big.txt takes...quite a 
bit in duck-typed languages). Maybe it's the dual core 
3.0GHz, but I've found it hard to skip apps using PA. 
PA is taking 0% CPU and kaffeine jumps to 1% playing 
flac files. Also, PA hasn't even jumped towards the top 
of usage at all in the past few minutes.

- --Ben
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From mhlavink at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 15:15:33 2009
From: mhlavink at redhat.com (Michal Hlavinka)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:15:33 +0200
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <200904271715.33387.mhlavink@redhat.com>

On Monday 27 April 2009 16:46:16 Dennis J. wrote:
> On 04/27/2009 12:15 PM, M A Young wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Dennis J. wrote:
> >> I'm seeing 2.6.29 packages for f10 showing up on koji for a while now
> >> but they never end up as a real update. Is there any particular reason
> >> for that?
> >
> > I imagine that the intention is to go to 2.6.29 on f10 at some point,
> > but there are still issues to fix before it is ready for general
> > release. For example one such issue that is now solved is that 2.6.29
> > uses a different version of squashfs to the one in f10, which meant that
> > things such as liveCDs would cease to work (this was solved by adding
> > the code for the earlier version of squashfs to 2.6.29), but there may
> > be other things that still need to be resolved.
>
> I guess I'm wondering why so much effort is put into this when by the time
> the kernel gets released for f10 it is already outdated and we are moving
> towards a f12 release which will end the support for f10 anyway.

correction:
after F11 release and about two months, F9 won't be supported (F10 will)

> If f10 and/or kernel 2.6.29 is going to be the baseline for RHEL 6 then I
> could see why such an effort is made but other than that, why bother?
>
> Regards,
>    Dennis



From MathStuf at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 15:34:38 2009
From: MathStuf at gmail.com (Ben Boeckel)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:34:38 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote:

> Hi,
> 
>> I propose that we stop referring to and ship a 
"Default desktop" but
>> instead will start
>> referring to their project name instead.
>>
>> AFAIK what would be required to accomplish this is 
change all
>> documentation and filenames to refer to Gnome 
desktop instead of Default
>> desktop, Fedora desktop or just Desktop and make 
minor changes to
>> Anaconda.
> 
> You would also have to make it so that the "GNOME 
desktop" group is
> not checked by default when installing with a DVD 
(change in comps.xml
> if I'm not mistaken)
> 
> But wait, that means that a new user without any 
skill will have no
> desktop installed if he doesn't check this box 
himself. I'm not sure
> the effect on them will be positive ;)
> 
> IMHO, we need to have a checked checkbox bu default 
in installation,
> which means we need to choose a desktop environment 
and make it the
> default.
How about page (or put it into an existing page) with a 
set of radio buttons for which DE to install? GNOME, 
KDE, XFCE, None, etc. This way every user sees it, 
there's only bias in which of these is default (which 
is a lower bias than having to go into the huge list 
and switch checkmarks).

> That doesn't mean we treat other desktop environments 
as if they were
> second class citizens, but that's not the point you 
are raising here.
Probably should be raised as well, but I agree, that is 
something for another thread.

> Regards,
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)

- --Ben

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From cdahlin at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 15:48:18 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:48:18 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>

Ben Boeckel wrote:
>> which means we need to choose a desktop environment 
> and make it the
>> default.
> How about page (or put it into an existing page) with a 
> set of radio buttons for which DE to install? GNOME, 
> KDE, XFCE, None, etc. This way every user sees it, 
> there's only bias in which of these is default (which 
> is a lower bias than having to go into the huge list 
> and switch checkmarks).
> 

Less than that. We can have none of the radio buttons be checked to start, and simply prevent the user from advancing with the install until they make a choice (we would of course need a radio button for "no desktop" as well).

--CJD



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 16:21:37 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:21:37 +0100
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240841984.3942.3.camel@hubmaier.ceplovi.cz>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<200904251546.27736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<1240841984.3942.3.camel@hubmaier.ceplovi.cz>
Message-ID: <200904271721.37884.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Monday 27 April 2009 15:19:44 Matej Cepl wrote:
> Bill Crawford p??e v So 25. 04. 2009 v 15:46 +0100:
> > Sorry, forgot screenshot (can't remember if the list allows them; you
> > should see it on the Cc: anyway.
>
> Do you have switched off Javascript or something (image looks kind of
> non-standard) ... I have in my Firefox AJAXy solution ... full list is
> downloaded only when change is required.

Firefox 3, Fedora 8 (yes, it's old; no, I can't update yet).

Takes a good 30 seconds just to load the page, and a second give or take to 
update after selecting a new component (although I'm ascribing some of that to 
Firebug, which seems to slow *everything* down).

> Matej





From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 16:23:47 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:23:47 +0100
Subject: Independent Fedora bug tracker
In-Reply-To: <1240841984.3942.3.camel@hubmaier.ceplovi.cz>
References: <49EF3ACA.60308@hidayahonline.org>
	<200904251546.27736.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<1240841984.3942.3.camel@hubmaier.ceplovi.cz>
Message-ID: <200904271723.47818.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Monday 27 April 2009 15:19:44 Matej Cepl wrote:
> Bill Crawford p??e v So 25. 04. 2009 v 15:46 +0100:
> > Sorry, forgot screenshot (can't remember if the list allows them; you
> > should see it on the Cc: anyway.
>
> Do you have switched off Javascript or something (image looks kind of
> non-standard) ... I have in my Firefox AJAXy solution ... full list is
> downloaded only when change is required.

Oh, I'm looking at "create new bug" and you're looking at an existing 
one, ... :-$



From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 16:25:09 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:25:09 -0400
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <6d959d480904270541p33fd505bg4a3dc553b53eece3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6d959d480904251321i77afdad1ve76d0adf7caeab71@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904271330.02074.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<6d959d480904270541p33fd505bg4a3dc553b53eece3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ef93afcf0904270925k7aa8d15em9c639bd0f5711e47@mail.gmail.com>

On Monday, April 27, 2009, R?my Maucherat <remy.maucherat at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Bill Crawford
> <billcrawford1970 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Perhaps because the people concerned feel that some attitudes presented are
>> themselves "abusive" and want to complain?
>
> All I know is that you are a whiner and a spammer :) Any abuse you
> might get is well deserved.

Please, cut the ad hominem attacks. Debates about technical merit are
welcome here but personal insults are not.

Paul



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 16:25:15 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:25:15 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <gt4i0e$ofu$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904271329.04618.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<gt4i0e$ofu$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904271725.15671.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Monday 27 April 2009 16:12:06 Ben Boeckel wrote:

> I've had X lock up or temporarily freeze and kaffeine
> (playing through PA via xine) still plays. The only way
> I've been able to get it to skip is to force basically
> everything into swap with programs that take up 3+GB of
> RAM (making markov chains from big.txt takes...quite a
> bit in duck-typed languages). Maybe it's the dual core
> 3.0GHz, but I've found it hard to skip apps using PA.
> PA is taking 0% CPU and kaffeine jumps to 1% playing
> flac files. Also, PA hasn't even jumped towards the top
> of usage at all in the past few minutes.

I have an old PC. It only has one core, and ATA drives in it. Trust me, you can 
make things skip.



From notting at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 16:33:43 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:33:43 -0400
Subject: RFE: Makefile.common patch to error out when no spec is present
In-Reply-To: <49F5BDFF.4020208@redhat.com>
References: <20090424155448.47d55388@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F5BDFF.4020208@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090427163342.GE16690@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Karsten Hopp (karsten at redhat.com) said: 
> Am 24.04.2009 23:54, schrieb Kevin Fenzi:
>> Greetings.
>>
>> I know some of you have run into this situation:
>>
>> If you have a package where there is no *.spec file present and you try
>> to run any of the fedora cvs Makefile.common targets, nothing happens
>> and the command just hangs.
>>
>> Turns out it's doing a grep of the spec file to figure out if the
>> package is noarch or not. When there is no spec file the grep hangs.
>>
>> Here's a very hacky patch that should at least error out in this case.
>>
>> Makefile hackers welcome to provide a better one.
...

> Looks like this is the week of Makefile.common patches, I have another one:

They both look fine... go ahead and apply.

Bill



From m.a.young at durham.ac.uk  Mon Apr 27 16:13:49 2009
From: m.a.young at durham.ac.uk (M A Young)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:13:49 +0100 (BST)
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Dennis J. wrote:

> I guess I'm wondering why so much effort is put into this when by the time 
> the kernel gets released for f10 it is already outdated and we are moving 
> towards a f12 release which will end the support for f10 anyway.
>
> If f10 and/or kernel 2.6.29 is going to be the baseline for RHEL 6 then I 
> could see why such an effort is made but other than that, why bother?

f10 has still 7 or 8 months to run. f9 is the version that will be 
obsoleted soon, and that isn't being updated to 2.6.29. There is a good 
chance that 2.6.30 will be out before f12 is released.

 	Michael Young



From mail at robertoragusa.it  Mon Apr 27 16:45:06 2009
From: mail at robertoragusa.it (Roberto Ragusa)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:45:06 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>

Casey Dahlin wrote:
> Less than that. We can have none of the radio buttons be checked to start, and simply prevent the user from advancing with the install until they make a choice (we would of course need a radio button for "no desktop" as well).

If the radio buttons consist of big preview snapshots of each desktop environment
the choice will be really easy for the user.

And what about a "no desktop" option too?

-- 
   Roberto Ragusa    mail at robertoragusa.it



From che666 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 16:45:37 2009
From: che666 at gmail.com (Rudolf Kastl)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:45:37 +0200
Subject: Virtualization comps group in f11
In-Reply-To: <20090427091226.GC5117@redhat.com>
References: <20090426205240.679ed459@ohm.scrye.com>
	<20090427091226.GC5117@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <e99d27470904270945i4ac4fb4g95762007fc202b00@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/27 Daniel P. Berrange <berrange at redhat.com>:
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 08:52:40PM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>> A user on #fedora noted that they installed the Virtualization group,
>> but couldn't get any vm's to install or work.
>>
>> We tracked it down to them not having qemu installed.
>>
>> Looks like the f11 comps file still lists 'qemu-kvm' in the
>> Virtualization group, and not any of the qemu packages. ;(
>> Even tho there is a Provides: qemu-kvm in qemu-system-x86, groupinstall
>> doesn't seem to pull it in.
>>
>> - Is there a unexpected yum behavior here? Or is a virtual provides not
>> ? allowed in a comps group?
>>
>> - Should we just change the 'qemu-kvm' to 'qemu' in the f11-comps?
>
> There's two options, we can default to installing the whoile of QEMU
> which includes all arch emulators and KVM (eg, the qemu RPM), or
> default to just the x86 emulators (which includes KVM, but only if
> non an x86 host - we qemu-system-x86 RPM). ? I think its probably
> worth going for 'qemu-system-x86' ?in comps, because the non-x86
> archs are not really used very much and quite alot less stable.

they use up a really small amount of space for alot additional
functionality. i think it would be great to showoff there.

kind regards,
Rudolf Kastl

>
> Daniel
> --
> |: Red Hat, Engineering, London ? -o- ? http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :|
> |: http://libvirt.org ?-o- ?http://virt-manager.org ?-o- ?http://ovirt.org :|
> |: http://autobuild.org ? ? ? -o- ? ? ? ? http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
> |: GnuPG: 7D3B9505 ?-o- ?F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505 :|
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



From mike at cchtml.com  Mon Apr 27 16:50:09 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:50:09 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest
	(productive)	proposal
In-Reply-To: <gt4i0e$ofu$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>	<200904251714.07573.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>	<6d959d480904250934h1fb12465ue60b55866d4a188c@mail.gmail.com>	<200904271329.04618.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<gt4i0e$ofu$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49F5E241.2030603@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive) 
proposal
From: Ben Boeckel <MathStuf at gmail.com>
To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
Date: 04/27/2009 10:12 AM

> I've had X lock up or temporarily freeze and kaffeine 
> (playing through PA via xine) still plays. The only way 
> I've been able to get it to skip is to force basically 
> everything into swap with programs that take up 3+GB of 
> RAM (making markov chains from big.txt takes...quite a 
> bit in duck-typed languages). Maybe it's the dual core 
> 3.0GHz, but I've found it hard to skip apps using PA. 
> PA is taking 0% CPU and kaffeine jumps to 1% playing 
> flac files. Also, PA hasn't even jumped towards the top 
> of usage at all in the past few minutes.


That's amazing, because I have a 3ghz dual core and PA takes ~10% CPU to 
play FLAC from Rhythmbox and can skip if I'm doing a lot of work - say 
ffmpeg transcoding and moving files. Intel HD audio (yes, generic) 
Analog Devices chip.



From naheemzaffar at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 16:53:42 2009
From: naheemzaffar at gmail.com (Naheem Zaffar)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:53:42 +0100
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
Message-ID: <3adc77210904270953j4741620dp52a1fc65c197e4c3@mail.gmail.com>

Good defaults are important. Asking a first time user who may never have
used Fedora before - or not even know that a desktop environment is to
choose one is wrong.
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From pemboa at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 16:57:08 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:57:08 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <3adc77210904270953j4741620dp52a1fc65c197e4c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<3adc77210904270953j4741620dp52a1fc65c197e4c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904270957s11d9b7f2qe2d97d53d359f2f8@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Naheem Zaffar <naheemzaffar at gmail.com> wrote:
> Good defaults are important. Asking a first time user who may never have
> used Fedora before - or not even know that a desktop environment is to
> choose one is wrong.


Why?


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From mike at cchtml.com  Mon Apr 27 16:57:32 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:57:32 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F5E3FC.5060603@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Abandon "Default Desktop"
From: Casey Dahlin <cdahlin at redhat.com>
To: MathStuf at gmail.com, Development discussions related to Fedora 
<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/27/2009 10:48 AM

> 
> Less than that. We can have none of the radio buttons be checked to start, and simply prevent the user from advancing with the install until they make a choice (we would of course need a radio button for "no desktop" as well).
> 


Less than that.

Have a checkbox on the *very* first install wizard screen that reads 
"Customized Install." If that's left unchecked then there should be only 
one or two more wizard pages after that before it installs. If it is 
checked, then it should ask you for a DE (or no DE) and all the other 
advanced install options.

Instead of a checkbox you could have two buttons. "Standard Install" 
(A.K.A. Default Desktop) or "Custom Install"



From glommer at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 17:07:07 2009
From: glommer at redhat.com (Glauber Costa)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:07:07 -0300
Subject: Virtualization comps group in f11
In-Reply-To: <20090427142320.GA53261@redhat.com>
References: <20090426205240.679ed459@ohm.scrye.com>
	<20090427142320.GA53261@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090427170707.GA12844@poweredge.glommer>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:23:20AM -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
> On Sunday, April 26 2009, Kevin Fenzi said:
> > - Is there a unexpected yum behavior here? Or is a virtual provides not
> >   allowed in a comps group?
> 
> The list of package names in groups of the  comps file are just that,
> package names.  Provides, filenames, etc are not allowed[1]
this is my bad then. I believe it were perfectly valid.

Formerly, we were installing qemu-system-x86 and qemu-system-ppc, to allow
for virtualization in both platforms we support kvm. But then some users
were confused about system-ppc being installed in x86...

We can go back to this scheme if it is better.




From cdahlin at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 17:19:18 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:19:18 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <3adc77210904270953j4741620dp52a1fc65c197e4c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<3adc77210904270953j4741620dp52a1fc65c197e4c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F5E916.6070605@redhat.com>

Naheem Zaffar wrote:
> Good defaults are important. Asking a first time user who may never have
> used Fedora before - or not even know that a desktop environment is to
> choose one is wrong.
> 

Who cares? Both GNOME and KDE are fine choices for a first time user. If they flip a coin they can't loose.

--CJD



From julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com  Mon Apr 27 17:22:03 2009
From: julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com (Julian Aloofi)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:22:03 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
Message-ID: <1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Montag, den 27.04.2009, 18:45 +0200 schrieb Roberto Ragusa:

> And what about a "no desktop" option too?

Wondeful! Everytime I install Fedora from the DVD and uncheck GNOME, all
applications and even the system-config tools, for some reason big parts
of GNOME get pulled in as dependencies (I think that even applies if I
uncheck everything except of "Base System" and "Hardware drivers").
This choice would be extremely useful if you wanted to install Fedora
without X(it may not be used for server installs, but some crappy old
laptops run better without X) and without building your own spin with
Revisor.

But I think that someone who uses a linux based OS for the first time
will not know what choice to make (I remember how I didn't know, back
when I first used linux). And GNOME is certainly not the wrong desktop
for new users. It's stable, simple and the system-config apps look
native.
Of course KDE (and everything else) is good too, but at the moment it's
(in my opinion, KDE 4.2 brought great improvements but it still crashes
from time to time) not stable enough (that will change).
Other desktops like XFCE are great too, but why should we choose them
over GNOME?
Users who know about the different desktops will make their choice
anyway, even if they don't have their own LiveCD (I'm thinking of LXDE
and e17). I don't think new users can't learn about all the desktops
when they install Fedora, but I hardly think they want. All desktops are
pretty well supported (in terms of updates and integration).

What I think would be best is keeping the GNOME Live-CD as default
installation media and add all the other choices to the DVD installer
(and call it DVD installer on fedoraproject.org, not just "Upgrade from
an older version"), as far as I can see our DVD only has 3.5 GB, so
another two or maybe even three little desktops and an "Advanced..."
menu could easily fit into the remaining MB's. I think an "Advanced..."
menu would be better than just choose "Customize now" and run the
package selector, because if you choose a desktop from the install DVD
it sometimes uses odd programs (for example kpackagekit and
gnome-packagekit at the same time). That could be prevented by a menu,
or we change the behaviour in the package selector itself and make the
various apps explictly dependent on the checkable desktop.
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From mike at cchtml.com  Mon Apr 27 17:25:01 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:25:01 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F5EA6D.4080407@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Abandon "Default Desktop"
From: Julian Aloofi <julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com>
To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
Date: 04/27/2009 12:22 PM

> Am Montag, den 27.04.2009, 18:45 +0200 schrieb Roberto Ragusa:
> 
>> And what about a "no desktop" option too?
> 
> Wondeful! Everytime I install Fedora from the DVD and uncheck GNOME, all
> applications and even the system-config tools, for some reason big parts
> of GNOME get pulled in as dependencies (I think that even applies if I
> uncheck everything except of "Base System" and "Hardware drivers").
> This choice would be extremely useful if you wanted to install Fedora
> without X(it may not be used for server installs, but some crappy old
> laptops run better without X) and without building your own spin with
> Revisor.
> 

What you want is already an F11 feature -- Minimal Platform.

There was a Test Day[1] for it just a few days ago. You should provide 
feedback.

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-04-21_Minimal_Platform



From pemboa at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 17:29:22 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:29:22 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904271029v7342d599p10fe53dd8e240115@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Julian Aloofi
<julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Am Montag, den 27.04.2009, 18:45 +0200 schrieb Roberto Ragusa:

> But I think that someone who uses a linux based OS for the first time
> will not know what choice to make (I remember how I didn't know, back
> when I first used linux).

Add a randomize button... and I'm completely serious about that. Or at
the very least, add a "choose for me option"

> And GNOME is certainly not the wrong desktop
> for new users. It's stable, simple and the system-config apps look
> native.

I actually consider the system-config apps not looking native a plus, but ok.

> Of course KDE (and everything else) is good too, but at the moment it's
> (in my opinion, KDE 4.2 brought great improvements but it still crashes
> from time to time) not stable enough (that will change).

I'm not sure that KDE crashes, only one app I use crashes regular...
saying KDE crashes is being extremely vague at best.

> Other desktops like XFCE are great too, but why should we choose them
> over GNOME?

Well... I think the point is to _not_ choose.

> Users who know about the different desktops will make their choice
> anyway,

So let them choose between equally placed desktops.

> even if they don't have their own LiveCD (I'm thinking of LXDE
> and e17). I don't think new users can't learn about all the desktops
> when they install Fedora, but I hardly think they want. All desktops are
> pretty well supported (in terms of updates and integration).
>
> What I think would be best is keeping the GNOME Live-CD as default

At least call it what it is, the Gnome live cd, there is nothing
special about to to make it default.

--
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From notting at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 17:29:44 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:29:44 -0400
Subject: Virtualization comps group in f11
In-Reply-To: <20090427170707.GA12844@poweredge.glommer>
References: <20090426205240.679ed459@ohm.scrye.com>
	<20090427142320.GA53261@redhat.com>
	<20090427170707.GA12844@poweredge.glommer>
Message-ID: <20090427172944.GG16690@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Glauber Costa (glommer at redhat.com) said: 
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:23:20AM -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 26 2009, Kevin Fenzi said:
> > > - Is there a unexpected yum behavior here? Or is a virtual provides not
> > >   allowed in a comps group?
> > 
> > The list of package names in groups of the  comps file are just that,
> > package names.  Provides, filenames, etc are not allowed[1]
> this is my bad then. I believe it were perfectly valid.
> 
> Formerly, we were installing qemu-system-x86 and qemu-system-ppc, to allow
> for virtualization in both platforms we support kvm. But then some users
> were confused about system-ppc being installed in x86...
> 
> We can go back to this scheme if it is better.

qemu-kvm could be a virtual package with no files that just Requires:
the proper system emulator.

Bill



From z.carter at F5.com  Mon Apr 27 17:30:37 2009
From: z.carter at F5.com (Zach Carter)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:30:37 -0700
Subject: review request for schroot package:  security expertise needed
Message-ID: <200904271030.37203.z.carter@f5.com>

Hi:

I'm trying to get this package thru the review process.  Some helpful people 
have already done reviews, and its pretty much ready to go, but there are some 
security issues that really need to be looked at by a security subject matter 
expert.

In particular, there are some setuid binaries and a pam configuration file that 
need to be reviewed from a security perspective.

Is anyone on the list willing to take a look?

	https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=447368

thanks!

-Zach

P.S. - I am also looking for a sponsor

"
Description: 
schroot allows users to execute commands or interactive shells in
different chroots.  Any number of named chroots may be created, and
access permissions given to each, including root access for normal
users, on a per-user or per-group basis.  Additionally, schroot can
switch to a different user in the chroot, using PAM for
authentication and authorisation.  All operations are logged for
security.
"



From itamar at ispbrasil.com.br  Mon Apr 27 17:40:10 2009
From: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br (Itamar Reis Peixoto)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:40:10 -0300
Subject: error compiling bareFTP
Message-ID: <d3ceea380904271040j2b43ca3fycbcf91ccb613e0f0@mail.gmail.com>

anyone can take a look

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1323138&name=root.log

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/packageinfo?packageID=8263


file /usr/lib/libvtesharpglue-2.so conflicts between attempted
installs of gnome-desktop-sharp-2.20.1-2.fc9.i386 and
gnome-sharp-2.16.1-3.fc9.i386


-- 
------------

Itamar Reis Peixoto

e-mail/msn: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
sip: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br
skype: itamarjp
icq: 81053601
+55 11 4063 5033
+55 34 3221 8599



From Fedora at FamilleCollet.com  Mon Apr 27 17:57:37 2009
From: Fedora at FamilleCollet.com (Remi Collet)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:57:37 +0200
Subject: Upgrade paths broken from F10 to F11
Message-ID: <49F5F211.7000907@FamilleCollet.com>

Hi,

I don't receive recently a report about such broken paths, but I notice
some I consider really serious :

    * blam-1.8.5-9.fc10 > blam-1.8.5-6.fc11
    * gecko-sharp2-0.13-7.fc10 > gecko-sharp2-0.13-2.fc11
    * galeon-2.0.7-9.fc10 > galeon-2.0.7-7.fc11
    * Miro-2.0.3-3.fc10 > Miro-2.0.3-1.fc11
    * google-gadgets-0.10.5-5.fc10 > google-gadgets-0.10.5-4.fc11
    * mugshot-1.2.2-8.fc10 > mugshot-1.2.2-3.fc11
    * perl-Gtk2-MozEmbed-0.08-5.fc10 > perl-Gtk2-MozEmbed-0.08-3.fc11

For the last one (I maintain), I have open a ticket :
	https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/1639

The main issue I see is that all this package requires
	gecko-libs = 1.9.0.9 (soon 1.9.0.10)

So upgrade to F11 will not be able to upgrade all the xulrunner
(gecko-libs = 1.9.1) stack (firefox, devhelp, yelp, and a lot of other
packages).

Am I the only one to be anxious ?
(perhaps I shouldn't do so much support)

Remi.



From MathStuf at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 17:59:30 2009
From: MathStuf at gmail.com (Ben Boeckel)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:59:30 -0400
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest
	(productive)	proposal
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904251714.07573.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<6d959d480904250934h1fb12465ue60b55866d4a188c@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904271329.04618.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<gt4i0e$ofu$1@ger.gmane.org> <49F5E241.2030603@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <gt4rqc$t27$1@ger.gmane.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Michael Cronenworth wrote:

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a 
modest (productive) 
> proposal
> From: Ben Boeckel <MathStuf at gmail.com>
> To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> Date: 04/27/2009 10:12 AM
> 
>> I've had X lock up or temporarily freeze and 
kaffeine 
>> (playing through PA via xine) still plays. The only 
way 
>> I've been able to get it to skip is to force 
basically 
>> everything into swap with programs that take up 3+GB 
of 
>> RAM (making markov chains from big.txt takes...quite 
a 
>> bit in duck-typed languages). Maybe it's the dual 
core 
>> 3.0GHz, but I've found it hard to skip apps using 
PA. 
>> PA is taking 0% CPU and kaffeine jumps to 1% playing 
>> flac files. Also, PA hasn't even jumped towards the 
top 
>> of usage at all in the past few minutes.
> 
> 
> That's amazing, because I have a 3ghz dual core and 
PA takes ~10% CPU to 
> play FLAC from Rhythmbox and can skip if I'm doing a 
lot of work - say 
> ffmpeg transcoding and moving files. Intel HD audio 
(yes, generic) 
> Analog Devices chip.
> 

Maybe its a difference between xine and gstreamer?

% lspci | grep -i audio
00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 
Family) HD Audio Controller

- --Ben
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waMAnRId+SA28ciKBXLmRvJBh+mAb8sB
=cL/s
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From Jochen at herr-schmitt.de  Mon Apr 27 18:00:23 2009
From: Jochen at herr-schmitt.de (Jochen Schmitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:00:23 +0200
Subject: error compiling bareFTP
In-Reply-To: <d3ceea380904271040j2b43ca3fycbcf91ccb613e0f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d3ceea380904271040j2b43ca3fycbcf91ccb613e0f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F5F2B7.30308@herr-schmitt.de>

Itamar Reis Peixoto schrieb:
> file /usr/lib/libvtesharpglue-2.so conflicts between attempted
> installs of gnome-desktop-sharp-2.20.1-2.fc9.i386 and
> gnome-sharp-2.16.1-3.fc9.i386
>
>
>   
I think you should open a bug on bugzilla.redhat.com.

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt



From bnocera at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 18:07:10 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:07:10 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <d5ad21470904270747g1a506d94m53c04d0192b1590b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240767549.2969.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<20090426175001.GD18060@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240768954.2969.6.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<f6ca9fed0904261220j27f164bage8ad30cf87564f22@mail.gmail.com>
	<d5ad21470904270747g1a506d94m53c04d0192b1590b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240855630.5037.4891.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 16:47 +0200, Gianluca Sforna wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 9:20 PM, drago01 <drago01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I would be extremely surprised if the release of F11 - the first general
> >> audience release with this new mixer -
> >
> > Afaik Ubuntu 9.04 ships with this mixer by default. (its upstream
> > gnome after all).
> 
> From: http://www.hadess.net/2009/01/nb-it-doesnt-actually-look-like-that.html
> Ubuntu's mixer applet is a different UI on the old mixer applet in
> gnome-applets, and not the PulseAudio-powered volume applet now in
> gnome-media.

That was actually an upstream change, and the mixer applet as shipped in
gnome-applets was killed shortly after that. So they ship with the new
gnome-volume-control-applet.



From MathStuf at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 18:12:14 2009
From: MathStuf at gmail.com (Ben Boeckel)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:12:14 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gt4si5$t27$2@ger.gmane.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Julian Aloofi wrote:

> Of course KDE (and everything else) is good too, but at 
the moment it's
> (in my opinion, KDE 4.2 brought great improvements but 
it still crashes
> from time to time) not stable enough (that will 
change).

Bug numbers please?

- --Ben
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=Jcva
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From the.masch at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 18:32:34 2009
From: the.masch at gmail.com (Mario Chacon)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:32:34 -0300
Subject: F11 - Error loading intel driver
Message-ID: <93d66b780904271132g6bd78aabj8a2accad86772593@mail.gmail.com>

Hello:
Is it possible to fix it recompiling some libs??..
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=495524

Salu2..
masch...
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From Jochen at herr-schmitt.de  Mon Apr 27 18:40:37 2009
From: Jochen at herr-schmitt.de (Jochen Schmitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:40:37 +0200
Subject: error compiling bareFTP
In-Reply-To: <49F5F2B7.30308@herr-schmitt.de>
References: <d3ceea380904271040j2b43ca3fycbcf91ccb613e0f0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F5F2B7.30308@herr-schmitt.de>
Message-ID: <49F5FC25.1040307@herr-schmitt.de>

Jochen Schmitt schrieb:
> Itamar Reis Peixoto schrieb:
>> file /usr/lib/libvtesharpglue-2.so conflicts between attempted
>> installs of gnome-desktop-sharp-2.20.1-2.fc9.i386 and
>> gnome-sharp-2.16.1-3.fc9.i386
>>
>>
>>   
> I think you should open a bug on bugzilla.redhat.com.
Because the file which caused the issue doesn't exist in the gnome-sharp 
package
from the devel branch, I will suggest, that you should fill a bug agains 
gnome-sharp.

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt



From mike at cchtml.com  Mon Apr 27 18:47:27 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:47:27 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a
	modest	(productive)	proposal
In-Reply-To: <gt4rqc$t27$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>	<200904251714.07573.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>	<6d959d480904250934h1fb12465ue60b55866d4a188c@mail.gmail.com>	<200904271329.04618.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>	<gt4i0e$ofu$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49F5E241.2030603@cchtml.com> <gt4rqc$t27$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49F5FDBF.10800@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest	(productive) 
proposal
From: Ben Boeckel <MathStuf at gmail.com>
To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
Date: 04/27/2009 12:59 PM

> 
> Maybe its a difference between xine and gstreamer?
> 

/s/Rhythmbox/mplayer

gstreamer has nothing to do with this.

> % lspci | grep -i audio
> 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 
> Family) HD Audio Controller
> 

You would have to grab the dmesg output for your particular audio chip. 
"Intel HD Audio" can mean any number of chips. Think AC'97.




From silfreed at silfreed.net  Mon Apr 27 19:01:09 2009
From: silfreed at silfreed.net (Douglas E. Warner)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:01:09 -0400
Subject: PPC build error regarding cc1plus and msse2 for qtpfsgui
Message-ID: <49F600F5.5090903@silfreed.net>

My recent build [1] (buildlog [2]) of a new qtpfsgui is failing with the
following error on PPC architectures:

cc1plus: error: unrecognized command line option "-msse2"

Any thoughts?

-Doug

[1] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1324142
[2] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1324159&name=build.log

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From loganjerry at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 19:03:36 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:03:36 -0600
Subject: Fedora 11 nerfed my mixer
In-Reply-To: <b4057d410904260922y3cc50170jf2d0ae7791f601c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240349186.4333.3779.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240581537.24529.262.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090424144513.GD30273@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240590565.8696.1466.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<20090424165817.GA15108@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240592832.8696.1510.camel@dimi.lattica.com>
	<a2e85ed0904241030r4cf00a75s40670db156416a87@mail.gmail.com>
	<66ec675b0904241055g46fc623ct9330ab456c6ac760@mail.gmail.com>
	<psccc6-kta.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>
	<b4057d410904260922y3cc50170jf2d0ae7791f601c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904271203k550ecf9dwe79b133f3558ff7d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Andy Burns <fedora.lists at burns.me.uk> wrote:
> I found that when a centOS KVM guest was running, my mythTV on the
> host OS couldn't play any sounds, I honestly can't remember if I had
> removed pluseaudio or not (not because it's bad but merely because I
> don''t need its features on what was originally a dedicated HTPC box).

Could this be the problem?

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477955

--
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/
http://jjames.fedorapeople.org/



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 19:06:17 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:06:17 -0400
Subject: PPC build error regarding cc1plus and msse2 for qtpfsgui
In-Reply-To: <49F600F5.5090903@silfreed.net>
References: <49F600F5.5090903@silfreed.net>
Message-ID: <e76492710904271206j3ec588a4k520ff9b0d258374a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Douglas E. Warner wrote:
> My recent build [1] (buildlog [2]) of a new qtpfsgui is failing with the
> following error on PPC architectures:
>
> cc1plus: error: unrecognized command line option "-msse2"
>
> Any thoughts?
>

SSE, SSE2 instruction sets are not available in all architectures.
Afaik only x86_64, ia64 and some ix86 flavors have them.  I may be
wrong though.

Try removing that flag from builds on unsupported archs.

Orcan



From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 19:10:10 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:10:10 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
Message-ID: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>

Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.

One big feature that has already been brought up on the list[1] is file
preallocation, which allows an application to pre-allocate blocks it
knows that it will eventually write into, thereby making sure it won't
run out of space, and also generally getting a more efficient/contiguous
file layout.

Only a few applications are taking advantage of this so far, in part
because it's new.[2]  The transmission bittorrent client is using it,
but only if you tweak a configfile in (IMHO) non-obvious ways.

So it'd be great to help more applications take advantage of this, and
evangelize the interface a bit, and maybe do it in a semi-organized
fashion.  First a bit of background on what this interface is:

Filesystems which can flag ranges of blocks as allocated but not
initialized can preallocate those blocks to a file very quickly, without
needing to write 0s or do any actual file data IO to perform the
allocation.  When read, they return 0 because they are flagged as
uninitialized.

ext4 (as well as btrfs, ocfs2, and xfs) has an ->fallocate inode
operation which is the hook to this fast preallocation interface.  The
low-level interface is via a syscall, but this is unlikely what we'd
like the applications to use directly.  There are 2 other paths to the
interface:

posix_fallocate(3):
int posix_fallocate(int fd, off_t offset, off_t len);

This has existed for some time, but recent glibc will call the efficient
syscall if the underlying filesystem supports it.  It will fall back to
essentially writing 0s to the file if not (or if on older glibc), and
this may not be desired behavior; preallocating 10G could take a very
long time this way.

fallocate(2):
long fallocate(int fd, int mode, loff_t offset, loff_t len);

This is directly wired to the syscall, so only succeeds on filesystems
that support it.  It also takes a FALLOC_FL_KEEP_SIZE mode argument,
which allows one to allocate blocks without updating the file size if
desired (blocks can then be allocated past EOF).  This call is only
wired up in very recent glibc, but it is available in F11.

So, tasks I see to be done, to get this started:

* Come up with some template autoconf magic to make it easy for
  apps to detect fallocate() at build time, and some example
  code on how to use it
  - Should it fall back to posix_fallocate if fallocate is absent?

* Decide on some consistent buildt-time, run-time, and
  configuration behavior when enabling this
  - should build time use posix_fallocate if only it is available?
  - config enabled == use fallocate whenever the fs supports it?
  - config enabled == fall back to posix_fallocate or not?
  - I'd be happy enough with exclusively using fallocate()

* Come up with a list of apps which could benefit:
  - all torrent clients?
  - rsync? (some patches have floated before)
  - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
  - databases?
  - file downloaders?
  - virt image tools?
  - ____ ?

* Work with Fedora package maintainers and/or upstream to get this
  hooked up where appropriate

* (Make a wiki page or a tracker bug to follow all this?)

Whaddya say?  Anyone want to help with this?

Thanks,
-Eric

[1]https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg00110.html
[2]https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg02078.html



From rwheeler at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 19:16:05 2009
From: rwheeler at redhat.com (Ric Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:16:05 -0400
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F60475.2@redhat.com>

Eric Sandeen wrote:
> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
> 
> One big feature that has already been brought up on the list[1] is file
> preallocation, which allows an application to pre-allocate blocks it
> knows that it will eventually write into, thereby making sure it won't
> run out of space, and also generally getting a more efficient/contiguous
> file layout.
> 
> Only a few applications are taking advantage of this so far, in part
> because it's new.[2]  The transmission bittorrent client is using it,
> but only if you tweak a configfile in (IMHO) non-obvious ways.
> 
> So it'd be great to help more applications take advantage of this, and
> evangelize the interface a bit, and maybe do it in a semi-organized
> fashion.  First a bit of background on what this interface is:
> 
> Filesystems which can flag ranges of blocks as allocated but not
> initialized can preallocate those blocks to a file very quickly, without
> needing to write 0s or do any actual file data IO to perform the
> allocation.  When read, they return 0 because they are flagged as
> uninitialized.

This is a great idea!

> 
> ext4 (as well as btrfs, ocfs2, and xfs) has an ->fallocate inode
> operation which is the hook to this fast preallocation interface.  The
> low-level interface is via a syscall, but this is unlikely what we'd
> like the applications to use directly.  There are 2 other paths to the
> interface:
> 
> posix_fallocate(3):
> int posix_fallocate(int fd, off_t offset, off_t len);
> 
> This has existed for some time, but recent glibc will call the efficient
> syscall if the underlying filesystem supports it.  It will fall back to
> essentially writing 0s to the file if not (or if on older glibc), and
> this may not be desired behavior; preallocating 10G could take a very
> long time this way.
> 
> fallocate(2):
> long fallocate(int fd, int mode, loff_t offset, loff_t len);
> 
> This is directly wired to the syscall, so only succeeds on filesystems
> that support it.  It also takes a FALLOC_FL_KEEP_SIZE mode argument,
> which allows one to allocate blocks without updating the file size if
> desired (blocks can then be allocated past EOF).  This call is only
> wired up in very recent glibc, but it is available in F11.
> 
> So, tasks I see to be done, to get this started:
> 
> * Come up with some template autoconf magic to make it easy for
>   apps to detect fallocate() at build time, and some example
>   code on how to use it
>   - Should it fall back to posix_fallocate if fallocate is absent?

I would not fall back to posix_fallocate() if fallocate() is not there since it 
could be horribly slow to preallocate & zero out very large files. That would 
probably discourage users (and application writers) from using this neat mechanism.

> 
> * Decide on some consistent buildt-time, run-time, and
>   configuration behavior when enabling this
>   - should build time use posix_fallocate if only it is available?
>   - config enabled == use fallocate whenever the fs supports it?
>   - config enabled == fall back to posix_fallocate or not?
>   - I'd be happy enough with exclusively using fallocate()
> 
> * Come up with a list of apps which could benefit:
>   - all torrent clients?
>   - rsync? (some patches have floated before)
>   - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
>   - databases?
>   - file downloaders?
>   - virt image tools?
>   - ____ ?

GNU tar?
cp?

> 
> * Work with Fedora package maintainers and/or upstream to get this
>   hooked up where appropriate
> 
> * (Make a wiki page or a tracker bug to follow all this?)
> 
> Whaddya say?  Anyone want to help with this?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Eric
> 
> [1]https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg00110.html
> [2]https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg02078.html
> 



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 27 19:27:39 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:27:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904271510240.9793@localhost.localdomain>



On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Eric Sandeen wrote:

> * Come up with some template autoconf magic to make it easy for
>  apps to detect fallocate() at build time, and some example
>  code on how to use it
>  - Should it fall back to posix_fallocate if fallocate is absent?
>
> * Decide on some consistent buildt-time, run-time, and
>  configuration behavior when enabling this
>  - should build time use posix_fallocate if only it is available?
>  - config enabled == use fallocate whenever the fs supports it?
>  - config enabled == fall back to posix_fallocate or not?
>  - I'd be happy enough with exclusively using fallocate()
>
> * Come up with a list of apps which could benefit:
>  - all torrent clients?
>  - rsync? (some patches have floated before)
>  - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
>  - databases?
>  - file downloaders?
>  - virt image tools?
>  - ____ ?
>
> * Work with Fedora package maintainers and/or upstream to get this
>  hooked up where appropriate


Is any of the above implemented at a layer where yum could take advantage 
of it? b/c I can imagine being able to say "we're going to need X amount 
of space to download all these pkgs" and then have rpm say "and we'll need 
X amount of space in order to actually RUN the transaction"


-sv



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Mon Apr 27 19:34:36 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:34:36 +0100
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240860876.2567.16.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 19:22 +0200, Julian Aloofi wrote:
> 
> Wondeful! Everytime I install Fedora from the DVD and uncheck GNOME, all
> applications and even the system-config tools, for some reason big parts
> of GNOME get pulled in as dependencies 

It got better in F-11.... you can't remove pulseaudio any more without
also removing bluez :)

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 19:36:06 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:36:06 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904271510240.9793@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904271510240.9793@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F60926.4050608@redhat.com>

Seth Vidal wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Eric Sandeen wrote:
> 
>> * Come up with some template autoconf magic to make it easy for
>>  apps to detect fallocate() at build time, and some example
>>  code on how to use it
>>  - Should it fall back to posix_fallocate if fallocate is absent?
>>
>> * Decide on some consistent buildt-time, run-time, and
>>  configuration behavior when enabling this
>>  - should build time use posix_fallocate if only it is available?
>>  - config enabled == use fallocate whenever the fs supports it?
>>  - config enabled == fall back to posix_fallocate or not?
>>  - I'd be happy enough with exclusively using fallocate()
>>
>> * Come up with a list of apps which could benefit:
>>  - all torrent clients?
>>  - rsync? (some patches have floated before)
>>  - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
>>  - databases?
>>  - file downloaders?
>>  - virt image tools?
>>  - ____ ?
>>
>> * Work with Fedora package maintainers and/or upstream to get this
>>  hooked up where appropriate
> 
> 
> Is any of the above implemented at a layer where yum could take advantage 
> of it? b/c I can imagine being able to say "we're going to need X amount 
> of space to download all these pkgs" and then have rpm say "and we'll need 
> X amount of space in order to actually RUN the transaction"

This reservation is really done on a per-file granularity; it's not for
doing things like "reserve me 8G of space for some number of files I may
write later" - it's more like "reserve me 5.2M of space on this file
descriptor; ok that worked now I'll write to it; rinse; repeat"

So I'm not sure this directly helps the case where, say, the test
transaction squeaks in with enough space, something else uses up some
space after that, and then the real install of the rpm set fails ...

-Eric



From Jochen at herr-schmitt.de  Mon Apr 27 19:35:59 2009
From: Jochen at herr-schmitt.de (Jochen Schmitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:35:59 +0200
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F6091F.1070901@herr-schmitt.de>

Eric Sandeen schrieb:
> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
>
>   
Question: As far as I can see grub doesn't seems to support ext4 on F-11.

Do we move to grub2 or what is the status of this topic?

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt



From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 19:38:44 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:38:44 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F6091F.1070901@herr-schmitt.de>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6091F.1070901@herr-schmitt.de>
Message-ID: <49F609C4.6010408@redhat.com>

Jochen Schmitt wrote:
> Eric Sandeen schrieb:
>> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
>> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
>>
>>   
> Question: As far as I can see grub doesn't seems to support ext4 on F-11.
> 
> Do we move to grub2 or what is the status of this topic?

See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486284
[PATCH] RFE: ext4 support in grub

Unfortunately this didn't make the cut for F11, but we'll get proper
ext4 support into our grub (v1) soon, I think.

-Eric



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 27 19:37:47 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:37:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60926.4050608@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904271510240.9793@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F60926.4050608@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904271537260.9793@localhost.localdomain>



On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Eric Sandeen wrote:

> This reservation is really done on a per-file granularity; it's not for
> doing things like "reserve me 8G of space for some number of files I may
> write later" - it's more like "reserve me 5.2M of space on this file
> descriptor; ok that worked now I'll write to it; rinse; repeat"
>
> So I'm not sure this directly helps the case where, say, the test
> transaction squeaks in with enough space, something else uses up some
> space after that, and then the real install of the rpm set fails ...

which is, sadly, exactly what I'd want to protect for.

oh well.

thanks,
-sv



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Mon Apr 27 19:41:51 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 03:41:51 +0800
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60926.4050608@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904271510240.9793@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F60926.4050608@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F60A7F.8050107@hidayahonline.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 04/28/2009 03:36 AM, Eric Sandeen wrote:
> Seth Vidal wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Eric Sandeen wrote:
>>
>>> * Come up with some template autoconf magic to make it easy for
>>>  apps to detect fallocate() at build time, and some example
>>>  code on how to use it
>>>  - Should it fall back to posix_fallocate if fallocate is absent?
>>>
>>> * Decide on some consistent buildt-time, run-time, and
>>>  configuration behavior when enabling this
>>>  - should build time use posix_fallocate if only it is available?
>>>  - config enabled == use fallocate whenever the fs supports it?
>>>  - config enabled == fall back to posix_fallocate or not?
>>>  - I'd be happy enough with exclusively using fallocate()
>>>
>>> * Come up with a list of apps which could benefit:
>>>  - all torrent clients?
>>>  - rsync? (some patches have floated before)
>>>  - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
>>>  - databases?
>>>  - file downloaders?
>>>  - virt image tools?
>>>  - ____ ?
>>>
>>> * Work with Fedora package maintainers and/or upstream to get this
>>>  hooked up where appropriate
>>
>> Is any of the above implemented at a layer where yum could take advantage 
>> of it? b/c I can imagine being able to say "we're going to need X amount 
>> of space to download all these pkgs" and then have rpm say "and we'll need 
>> X amount of space in order to actually RUN the transaction"
> 
> This reservation is really done on a per-file granularity; it's not for
> doing things like "reserve me 8G of space for some number of files I may
> write later" - it's more like "reserve me 5.2M of space on this file
> descriptor; ok that worked now I'll write to it; rinse; repeat"
> 
> So I'm not sure this directly helps the case where, say, the test
> transaction squeaks in with enough space, something else uses up some
> space after that, and then the real install of the rpm set fails ...
> 
> -Eric
> 
I think for downloading RPMs, yum would know on a per-file basis how
much space was needed.  I think this is what Seth meant.

Likewise, for installing, it's possible (I think?) from the RPM file
itself to know the sizes of the files that will be created during the
transaction, and thus preallocate each one.  This logic would go into
RPM itself, I guess.

So, that would mean that files will be more contiguous at install time,
which would be great...if possible.

None of this would guarantee that installed files would be physically
close together on the disk, though, right?  I imagine locality of
reference could theoretically be taken advantage of when an RPM is
installing all files for a certain application, which could speed up
load time as well...
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From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Mon Apr 27 19:43:38 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60A7F.8050107@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904271510240.9793@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F60926.4050608@redhat.com> <49F60A7F.8050107@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904271542180.9793@localhost.localdomain>



On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:

> I think for downloading RPMs, yum would know on a per-file basis how
> much space was needed.  I think this is what Seth meant.

But that's not really a big deal. If you run out of disk space downloading 
the pkgs it just doesn't matter b/c you're not in the middle of a 
transaction. Other than it being annoying, you're not out anything, just a 
little time.

>
> Likewise, for installing, it's possible (I think?) from the RPM file
> itself to know the sizes of the files that will be created during the
> transaction, and thus preallocate each one.  This logic would go into
> RPM itself, I guess.

But rpm won't be able to protect that the entire transaction will not run 
out of disk space. Which is an ugly problem to protect against.



-sv



From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 19:45:16 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:45:16 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60A7F.8050107@hidayahonline.org>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904271510240.9793@localhost.localdomain>	<49F60926.4050608@redhat.com>
	<49F60A7F.8050107@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <49F60B4C.4040407@redhat.com>

Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 04/28/2009 03:36 AM, Eric Sandeen wrote:
>> Seth Vidal wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Eric Sandeen wrote:
>>>
>>>> * Come up with some template autoconf magic to make it easy for
>>>>  apps to detect fallocate() at build time, and some example
>>>>  code on how to use it
>>>>  - Should it fall back to posix_fallocate if fallocate is absent?
>>>>
>>>> * Decide on some consistent buildt-time, run-time, and
>>>>  configuration behavior when enabling this
>>>>  - should build time use posix_fallocate if only it is available?
>>>>  - config enabled == use fallocate whenever the fs supports it?
>>>>  - config enabled == fall back to posix_fallocate or not?
>>>>  - I'd be happy enough with exclusively using fallocate()
>>>>
>>>> * Come up with a list of apps which could benefit:
>>>>  - all torrent clients?
>>>>  - rsync? (some patches have floated before)
>>>>  - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
>>>>  - databases?
>>>>  - file downloaders?
>>>>  - virt image tools?
>>>>  - ____ ?
>>>>
>>>> * Work with Fedora package maintainers and/or upstream to get this
>>>>  hooked up where appropriate
>>> Is any of the above implemented at a layer where yum could take advantage 
>>> of it? b/c I can imagine being able to say "we're going to need X amount 
>>> of space to download all these pkgs" and then have rpm say "and we'll need 
>>> X amount of space in order to actually RUN the transaction"
>> This reservation is really done on a per-file granularity; it's not for
>> doing things like "reserve me 8G of space for some number of files I may
>> write later" - it's more like "reserve me 5.2M of space on this file
>> descriptor; ok that worked now I'll write to it; rinse; repeat"
>>
>> So I'm not sure this directly helps the case where, say, the test
>> transaction squeaks in with enough space, something else uses up some
>> space after that, and then the real install of the rpm set fails ...
>>
>> -Eric
>>
> I think for downloading RPMs, yum would know on a per-file basis how
> much space was needed.  I think this is what Seth meant.
> 
> Likewise, for installing, it's possible (I think?) from the RPM file
> itself to know the sizes of the files that will be created during the
> transaction, and thus preallocate each one.  This logic would go into
> RPM itself, I guess.
> 
> So, that would mean that files will be more contiguous at install time,
> which would be great...if possible.

Yep, this is how I'd envisioned RPM using it.  I might only use it for
larger files; generally files of a few K should be allocated just fine
w/o needing the interface - especially when delayed allocation is in play.

> None of this would guarantee that installed files would be physically
> close together on the disk, though, right?  I imagine locality of
> reference could theoretically be taken advantage of when an RPM is
> installing all files for a certain application, which could speed up
> load time as well...

Unfortunately there is no context between the allocation calls, just the
normal allocator heuristics that will hopefully do a good job.

There has been talk of a defragmenter interface which could do this sort
of rearranging.

-Eric



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Mon Apr 27 19:47:10 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:47:10 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
Message-ID: <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>

This is a free distribution.

If you don't like _any_ default choice, feel free to make your own
spin ;)

That said: I think, a default desktop is needed as well as a default
color sheme or a default name: You need something that helps people to
recognize fedora. That's all. 

And of course: We could switch that if the community wants to.
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From dennisml at conversis.de  Mon Apr 27 19:48:41 2009
From: dennisml at conversis.de (Dennis J.)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:48:41 +0200
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>

On 04/27/2009 06:13 PM, M A Young wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Dennis J. wrote:
>
>> I guess I'm wondering why so much effort is put into this when by the
>> time the kernel gets released for f10 it is already outdated and we
>> are moving towards a f12 release which will end the support for f10
>> anyway.
>>
>> If f10 and/or kernel 2.6.29 is going to be the baseline for RHEL 6
>> then I could see why such an effort is made but other than that, why
>> bother?
>
> f10 has still 7 or 8 months to run. f9 is the version that will be
> obsoleted soon, and that isn't being updated to 2.6.29. There is a good
> chance that 2.6.30 will be out before f12 is released.

That's really my point. 2.6.30 will be out soon so 2.6.29 will be outdated 
again. What is the motivation of putting this much work into a kernel that 
will be outdated when released and only have a shelf-life of 7 or 8 months. 
Is there some critical feature in there that makes 2.6.29 so much better 
than 2.6.27 to warrant this much effort for so little gain?

Regards,
   Dennis




From jreiser at BitWagon.com  Mon Apr 27 19:49:27 2009
From: jreiser at BitWagon.com (John Reiser)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:49:27 -0700
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F60C47.8080409@BitWagon.com>

Eric Sandeen wrote:
> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
  [snip]
> Only a few applications are taking advantage of [preallocation] so far,
> in part because it's new.

And in part because the compatibility issues are a pain.  If a compiled
binary app uses fallocate(), then the app requires glibc >= 2.9.90.
fallocate() is not an exported symbol in glibc-2.9.  The app won't run
on Fedora 10, or almost anything except Fedora 11, until it is re-compiled
to avoid calling fallocate().

-- 




From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 19:53:12 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:53:12 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60C47.8080409@BitWagon.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F60C47.8080409@BitWagon.com>
Message-ID: <49F60D28.2040106@redhat.com>

John Reiser wrote:
> Eric Sandeen wrote:
>> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
>> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
>   [snip]
>> Only a few applications are taking advantage of [preallocation] so far,
>> in part because it's new.
> 
> And in part because the compatibility issues are a pain.  If a compiled
> binary app uses fallocate(), then the app requires glibc >= 2.9.90.
> fallocate() is not an exported symbol in glibc-2.9.  The app won't run
> on Fedora 10, or almost anything except Fedora 11, until it is re-compiled
> to avoid calling fallocate().

The price of progress?  :)

Perhaps the autoconf glue should have an explicit --enable-fallocate or
something; for F11 do we really care if the rpms in our binaries don't
run on debian stable or whatnot?

-Eric



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 19:53:47 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:53:47 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <e76492710904271253h64ec1972s35b1fbcbfe0e07df@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/27 Christoph H?ger:
> This is a free distribution.
>
> If you don't like _any_ default choice, feel free to make your own
> spin ;)
>
> That said: I think, a default desktop is needed as well as a default
> color sheme or a default name: You need something that helps people to
> recognize fedora. That's all.
>
> And of course: We could switch that if the community wants to.
>

We could make odd releases with Gnome default and even releases KDE
default. That way, we can get a better distributed feedback. Right
now, I believe that there are more Gnome users out there just because
it is the default. New users don't mess with the defaults.

Just an idea.
Orcan



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 19:52:16 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:52:16 -0400
Subject: Upgrade paths broken from F10 to F11
In-Reply-To: <49F5F211.7000907@FamilleCollet.com>
References: <49F5F211.7000907@FamilleCollet.com>
Message-ID: <49F60CF0.4090303@redhat.com>

On 04/27/2009 01:57 PM, Remi Collet wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I don't receive recently a report about such broken paths, but I notice
> some I consider really serious :
> 
>     * blam-1.8.5-9.fc10 > blam-1.8.5-6.fc11
>     * gecko-sharp2-0.13-7.fc10 > gecko-sharp2-0.13-2.fc11
>     * galeon-2.0.7-9.fc10 > galeon-2.0.7-7.fc11
>     * Miro-2.0.3-3.fc10 > Miro-2.0.3-1.fc11
>     * google-gadgets-0.10.5-5.fc10 > google-gadgets-0.10.5-4.fc11
>     * mugshot-1.2.2-8.fc10 > mugshot-1.2.2-3.fc11
>     * perl-Gtk2-MozEmbed-0.08-5.fc10 > perl-Gtk2-MozEmbed-0.08-3.fc11
> 
> For the last one (I maintain), I have open a ticket :
> 	https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/1639
> 
> The main issue I see is that all this package requires
> 	gecko-libs = 1.9.0.9 (soon 1.9.0.10)
> 
> So upgrade to F11 will not be able to upgrade all the xulrunner
> (gecko-libs = 1.9.1) stack (firefox, devhelp, yelp, and a lot of other
> packages).
> 
> Am I the only one to be anxious ?
> (perhaps I shouldn't do so much support)

No, we really should get this fixed before F-11 final. Chris?

~spot



From caillon at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 20:03:48 2009
From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:03:48 -0700
Subject: Upgrade paths broken from F10 to F11
In-Reply-To: <49F60CF0.4090303@redhat.com>
References: <49F5F211.7000907@FamilleCollet.com> <49F60CF0.4090303@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F60FA4.7000905@redhat.com>

On 04/27/2009 12:52 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> On 04/27/2009 01:57 PM, Remi Collet wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I don't receive recently a report about such broken paths, but I notice
>> some I consider really serious :
>>
>>      * blam-1.8.5-9.fc10>  blam-1.8.5-6.fc11
>>      * gecko-sharp2-0.13-7.fc10>  gecko-sharp2-0.13-2.fc11
>>      * galeon-2.0.7-9.fc10>  galeon-2.0.7-7.fc11
>>      * Miro-2.0.3-3.fc10>  Miro-2.0.3-1.fc11
>>      * google-gadgets-0.10.5-5.fc10>  google-gadgets-0.10.5-4.fc11
>>      * mugshot-1.2.2-8.fc10>  mugshot-1.2.2-3.fc11
>>      * perl-Gtk2-MozEmbed-0.08-5.fc10>  perl-Gtk2-MozEmbed-0.08-3.fc11
>>
>> For the last one (I maintain), I have open a ticket :
>> 	https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/1639
>>
>> The main issue I see is that all this package requires
>> 	gecko-libs = 1.9.0.9 (soon 1.9.0.10)
>>
>> So upgrade to F11 will not be able to upgrade all the xulrunner
>> (gecko-libs = 1.9.1) stack (firefox, devhelp, yelp, and a lot of other
>> packages).
>>
>> Am I the only one to be anxious ?
>> (perhaps I shouldn't do so much support)
>
> No, we really should get this fixed before F-11 final. Chris?

Yeah, I'll be taking care of all this in the next day or two.



From choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de  Mon Apr 27 20:02:12 2009
From: choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6ger?=)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:02:12 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904271253h64ec1972s35b1fbcbfe0e07df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<e76492710904271253h64ec1972s35b1fbcbfe0e07df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240862532.2514.5.camel@choeger6>

Am Montag, den 27.04.2009, 15:53 -0400 schrieb Orcan Ogetbil:
> 2009/4/27 Christoph H?ger:
> > This is a free distribution.
> >
> > If you don't like _any_ default choice, feel free to make your own
> > spin ;)
> >
> > That said: I think, a default desktop is needed as well as a default
> > color sheme or a default name: You need something that helps people to
> > recognize fedora. That's all.
> >
> > And of course: We could switch that if the community wants to.
> >
> 
> We could make odd releases with Gnome default and even releases KDE
> default. That way, we can get a better distributed feedback. Right
> now, I believe that there are more Gnome users out there just because
> it is the default. New users don't mess with the defaults.
> 
> Just an idea.
> Orcan
> 

Jupp, and prime releases get XFCE and every release n that fullfills x^n
+ y^n = z^n for integers x,y,z get LXDE.
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From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 20:09:12 2009
From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:09:12 -0400
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240735394.21153.814.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240735394.21153.814.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <939dd5750904271309ha7fceb3p958e997269fffeff@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 4:43 AM, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 at infradead.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 03:34 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> On Fri, 24.04.09 23:48, David Woodhouse (dwmw2 at infradead.org) wrote:
>>
>> > I don't think we're just going to decide that Fedora doesn't care about
>> > these users -- and from what I saw today I don't think it's likely that
>> > the PA folks will decide that they _do_ care.
>> >
>> > So it looks like if we keep PulseAudio as the core around which Fedora
>> > audio support is based, we're _always_ going to need to keep something
>> > extra to fill the functionality gap.
>>
>> Oh great. This sounds like an invitation to stop working on cleaning
>> up the volume control situation entirely. If we never can get rid of
>> the old cruft and need to prominently feature it in all future release
>> then why even try?
>
> I believe that our user interface people are good enough that they can
> find some middle ground -- somewhere a long way from the oft-cited
> alsa-mixer-of-doom, and much closer to the nice but oversimplified F-11
> implementation of gnome-volume-control -- but which actually lets people
> have better control over their hardware _when_ they need it.
>
> I don't believe that we're really limited to one extreme or the other.
>
> So no, I don't believe that it's an invitation to stop working on it at
> all. It's merely an invitation to do better.

Actually, I think this is pretty close to the UI we want and, modulo
the input selection and one or two other technical limitations that
are being worked on, it should be nearly complete.  I designed it with
help from Matthew Paul Thomas - and with oh a bit of inspiration from
a popular and highly regarded operating system.  I feel very strongly
that we shouldn't be compromising our designs to cater to the lowest
common denominator of broken hardware and drivers - and definitely not
for something as easy to fix as a unimplemented feature.

In general, in order for our design and development process to succeed
we need to illuminate the dark - not dim the light to match.  Or
alternately, in my opinion, we will never be successful if we try to
design software based on a unanimous consensus (of working features).

I think Lennart has a wiki page somewhere that describes some of the
current problems and how they should be addressed.

Jon



From tgl at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 20:11:00 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:11:00 -0400
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers 
In-Reply-To: <49F60C47.8080409@BitWagon.com> 
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F60C47.8080409@BitWagon.com>
Message-ID: <10967.1240863060@sss.pgh.pa.us>

John Reiser <jreiser at BitWagon.com> writes:
> Eric Sandeen wrote:
>> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
>> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
>   [snip]
>> Only a few applications are taking advantage of [preallocation] so far,
>> in part because it's new.

> And in part because the compatibility issues are a pain.

And in part because they don't give a damn.  It's really hard to name
very many applications where this is likely to give a big enough
performance boost to justify dealing with filesystem-dependent
optimizations.  (Because it's filesystem dependent, you couldn't even
drive it off a configuration switch; you'd have to probe at runtime
to determine whether there was anything you could do.)

As an example: you don't seriously believe that this is the bottleneck
for downloading RPM files, do you?

			regards, tom lane



From ngompa13 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 20:18:38 2009
From: ngompa13 at gmail.com (King InuYasha)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:18:38 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240862532.2514.5.camel@choeger6>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<e76492710904271253h64ec1972s35b1fbcbfe0e07df@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240862532.2514.5.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <8278b1b0904271318ta17f175scc91d89a9b2092ca@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/27 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>

> Am Montag, den 27.04.2009, 15:53 -0400 schrieb Orcan Ogetbil:
> > 2009/4/27 Christoph H?ger:
> > > This is a free distribution.
> > >
> > > If you don't like _any_ default choice, feel free to make your own
> > > spin ;)
> > >
> > > That said: I think, a default desktop is needed as well as a default
> > > color sheme or a default name: You need something that helps people to
> > > recognize fedora. That's all.
> > >
> > > And of course: We could switch that if the community wants to.
> > >
> >
> > We could make odd releases with Gnome default and even releases KDE
> > default. That way, we can get a better distributed feedback. Right
> > now, I believe that there are more Gnome users out there just because
> > it is the default. New users don't mess with the defaults.
> >
> > Just an idea.
> > Orcan
> >
>
> Jupp, and prime releases get XFCE and every release n that fullfills x^n
> + y^n = z^n for integers x,y,z get LXDE.
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>


As absurd as that is... And that is pretty absurd, I do like the idea of
even/odd split default. The problem is that Fedora doesn't provide a good
default set for KDE yet, and if we wanted to push something like that, KDE
would need to be brought in as a first-class citizen. I'm not discounting
the work of the KDE SIG people. Those people do a great job. But you notice
that we don't have a GNOME SIG. The fact that we need a KDE SIG in the first
place shows that we treat KDE as a second-class citizen.

The only time KDE was a first class citizen on Red Hat/Fedora Linux was RHL
8.0 to 9. After that, it seemed that Fedora rested a bit on its laurels as
far as KDE went and chugged ahead only with GNOME. I don't use KDE for the
simple reason that it just isn't as well integrated as GNOME is. And there
are performance issues with KDE too that GNOME simply doesn't have because
more people work on it.

By switching the default each release, we could force more work to be done
on each desktop.

However, I doubt this would happen.... But it is a thought....
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From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 20:19:58 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:19:58 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <10967.1240863060@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F60C47.8080409@BitWagon.com>
	<10967.1240863060@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <49F6136E.8020708@redhat.com>

Tom Lane wrote:
> John Reiser <jreiser at BitWagon.com> writes:
>> Eric Sandeen wrote:
>>> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
>>> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
>>   [snip]
>>> Only a few applications are taking advantage of [preallocation] so far,
>>> in part because it's new.
> 
>> And in part because the compatibility issues are a pain.
> 
> And in part because they don't give a damn.  It's really hard to name
> very many applications where this is likely to give a big enough
> performance boost to justify dealing with filesystem-dependent
> optimizations.  (Because it's filesystem dependent, you couldn't even
> drive it off a configuration switch; you'd have to probe at runtime
> to determine whether there was anything you could do.)

nah, if it was detected at build time, you can just call fallocate.  If
you get back ENOSYS, carry on.

Really, even if you just ignore all errors, you're no worse off than if
you hadn't called it.

> As an example: you don't seriously believe that this is the bottleneck
> for downloading RPM files, do you?

No, of course not, and I'm not suggesting that it be used for rpm
downloading.  You wouldn't want to use it for every little file you
write, either.  But for some cases it can be a big win.

Torrent downloading?  This is sort of the quintessential case where it
can help.  Databases?  yes.  Rsyncing large files?  yep.  Creating
virtual images? yep.  Helping samba cope with weird windows client
behavior?  yep[1]

Basically anything that is filled in over time, or filled in sparsely,
could potentially benefit.

-Eric

> 			regards, tom lane
> 

[1]
http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/windows-client-cifs-behavior-can-slow-linux-nas-performance/
this one I have a patch for, though :)



From rjones at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 20:20:59 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:20:59 +0100
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090427202059.GA1474@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 02:10:10PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
> fallocate(2):
> long fallocate(int fd, int mode, loff_t offset, loff_t len);

I have some questions about this syscall: One serious problem is that
the allocations seem to take a long time to complete (this is on ext3,
I've not tried ext4 on my host machine yet).  Is it possible to have
the fallocate happen 'in the background'?  Is the extent-based system
used by ext4 more efficient in this respect?

> * Come up with a list of apps which could benefit:
>   - all torrent clients?
>   - rsync? (some patches have floated before)
>   - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
>   - databases?
>   - file downloaders?
>   - virt image tools?

In the virt space, these:

 - libvirt storage backend
 - virt-install (python)
 - libguestfs / guestfish
 - ovirt (maybe?)

For the virt C code, it would be extremely useful to have the autoconf
state of play sorted out first, so we can just add the right macros to
our configure.ac scripts.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-p2v converts physical machines to virtual machines.  Boot with a
live CD or over the network (PXE) and turn machines into Xen guests.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-p2v



From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 20:25:44 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:25:44 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <20090427202059.GA1474@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
	<20090427202059.GA1474@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <49F614C8.4060308@redhat.com>

Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 02:10:10PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
>> fallocate(2):
>> long fallocate(int fd, int mode, loff_t offset, loff_t len);
> 
> I have some questions about this syscall: One serious problem is that
> the allocations seem to take a long time to complete (this is on ext3,
> I've not tried ext4 on my host machine yet).  Is it possible to have
> the fallocate happen 'in the background'?  Is the extent-based system
> used by ext4 more efficient in this respect?

fallocate() will return -ENOSYS on ext3; posix_fallocate() will succeed
but will fall back to writing 0s on ext3, which is probably what you are
seeing, and you may not want to call it for that reason...

See my original email on why ext4 is faster and how it behaves
differently...

>> * Come up with a list of apps which could benefit:
>>   - all torrent clients?
>>   - rsync? (some patches have floated before)
>>   - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
>>   - databases?
>>   - file downloaders?
>>   - virt image tools?
> 
> In the virt space, these:
> 
>  - libvirt storage backend

Looks like libvirt already calls posix_fallocate().  How is this used or
configured?  Going forward, fallocate() may be the better choice, or a
configurable one if there's any actual use case for using
posix_fallocate() instead on ext3.

>  - virt-install (python)
>  - libguestfs / guestfish
>  - ovirt (maybe?)
> 
> For the virt C code, it would be extremely useful to have the autoconf
> state of play sorted out first, so we can just add the right macros to
> our configure.ac scripts.

Yep, that's why I listed it as the first bullet point :)

-Eric

> Rich.
> 



From loganjerry at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 20:30:12 2009
From: loganjerry at gmail.com (Jerry James)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:30:12 -0600
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F6136E.8020708@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F60C47.8080409@BitWagon.com>
	<10967.1240863060@sss.pgh.pa.us> <49F6136E.8020708@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <870180fe0904271330h2cc5b68ai4eb4e67f60748f1d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com> wrote:
> Basically anything that is filled in over time, or filled in sparsely,
> could potentially benefit.

I think the word "sparsely" here is confusing me.  This function
preallocates disk space, right?  So I wouldn't want to use it for a
file that I expect to be a "sparse file" throughout most or all of its
lifetime, because then I would be forcing zero-filled blocks onto the
disk.  Can you explain what you meant by "filled in sparsely"?
-- 
Jerry James
http://loganjerry.googlepages.com/



From berrange at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 20:33:19 2009
From: berrange at redhat.com (Daniel P. Berrange)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:33:19 +0100
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090427203319.GC18260@redhat.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 02:10:10PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
> 
> One big feature that has already been brought up on the list[1] is file
> preallocation, which allows an application to pre-allocate blocks it
> knows that it will eventually write into, thereby making sure it won't
> run out of space, and also generally getting a more efficient/contiguous
> file layout.
> 
> * Come up with a list of apps which could benefit:
[snip]
>   - virt image tools?

We're one step ahead of you !  libvirt supports it as of 0.6.3 for its
raw file storage management APIs, and this is in Fedora 11 trees

http://git.et.redhat.com/?p=libvirt.git;a=commit;h=70e7672184ff639856d5f2f3bf7849464031dff9

Thanks to Amit Shah for doing the patch for us, and providing us some
compelling performance figures at the same time:

http://www.amitshah.net/2009/03/comparison-of-file-systems-and-speeding.html

Daniel
-- 
|: Red Hat, Engineering, London   -o-   http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :|
|: http://libvirt.org  -o-  http://virt-manager.org  -o-  http://ovirt.org :|
|: http://autobuild.org       -o-         http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
|: GnuPG: 7D3B9505  -o-  F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505 :|



From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 20:36:13 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:36:13 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <870180fe0904271330h2cc5b68ai4eb4e67f60748f1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
	<49F60C47.8080409@BitWagon.com>	<10967.1240863060@sss.pgh.pa.us>
	<49F6136E.8020708@redhat.com>
	<870180fe0904271330h2cc5b68ai4eb4e67f60748f1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F6173D.8000707@redhat.com>

Jerry James wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com> wrote:
>> Basically anything that is filled in over time, or filled in sparsely,
>> could potentially benefit.
> 
> I think the word "sparsely" here is confusing me.  This function
> preallocates disk space, right?  So I wouldn't want to use it for a
> file that I expect to be a "sparse file" throughout most or all of its
> lifetime, because then I would be forcing zero-filled blocks onto the
> disk.  Can you explain what you meant by "filled in sparsely"?

Right.  Sorry, that wasn't very specific.  Think of how a torrent file
fills itself in:

1. [a block here]...
2.                                         [a block there]...
3.                   [a little here]...
... etc

and then you end up with
[a block here][hole][a little here][hole][a block there]....

and since the file has holes as it is being completed, I called it "sparse"

Allocators often have a hard time with this kind of behavior, and
telling the fs that you actually want all those blocks allocated right
up front can help get a decent layout.

If you are expecting your file to stay sparse, and you never really plan
to fill it in, then no you probably would not want to preallocate all
that space.

(Just to be clear, by calling the fallocate(); call you don't actually
get "zero-filled blocks on the disk" - you get quickly-allocated blocks
which are marked as uninitialized, for which the filesystem will return
0s until they've been written to.)

-Eric



From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 20:42:32 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:42:32 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <20090427203319.GC18260@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <20090427203319.GC18260@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F618B8.3030201@redhat.com>

Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 02:10:10PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
>> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
>> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
>>
>> One big feature that has already been brought up on the list[1] is file
>> preallocation, which allows an application to pre-allocate blocks it
>> knows that it will eventually write into, thereby making sure it won't
>> run out of space, and also generally getting a more efficient/contiguous
>> file layout.
>>
>> * Come up with a list of apps which could benefit:
> [snip]
>>   - virt image tools?
> 
> We're one step ahead of you !  libvirt supports it as of 0.6.3 for its
> raw file storage management APIs, and this is in Fedora 11 trees

Cool!

> http://git.et.redhat.com/?p=libvirt.git;a=commit;h=70e7672184ff639856d5f2f3bf7849464031dff9
> 
> Thanks to Amit Shah for doing the patch for us, and providing us some
> compelling performance figures at the same time:
> 
> http://www.amitshah.net/2009/03/comparison-of-file-systems-and-speeding.html

Ah, that explains the call to posix_fallocate() I saw in the library :)

Just FWIW, this will still be slow on ext3, but fast on
ext4/xfs/btrfs/ocfs2 - as Amit's blog entry shows, I guess.

If you didn't want to fall back to the slow behavior on ext3, you might
consider only using fallocate() if it's there, rather than
posix_fallocate().  But the behavior is up to you of course.  :)

-Eric



From m.a.young at durham.ac.uk  Mon Apr 27 20:42:48 2009
From: m.a.young at durham.ac.uk (M A Young)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:42:48 +0100 (BST)
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
	<49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904272134480.13243@vega1.dur.ac.uk>

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Dennis J. wrote:

> That's really my point. 2.6.30 will be out soon so 2.6.29 will be outdated 
> again. What is the motivation of putting this much work into a kernel that 
> will be outdated when released and only have a shelf-life of 7 or 8 months. 
> Is there some critical feature in there that makes 2.6.29 so much better than 
> 2.6.27 to warrant this much effort for so little gain?

By that argument you would never update at all, because there will always 
be a new kernel coming along in a few months. There is also a cost to 
standing still, because things go out of date, and they would have to work 
to back-port patches for security fixes etc.

 	Michael Young



From mike at cchtml.com  Mon Apr 27 20:44:46 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:44:46 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F6193E.1010103@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core 
<fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/27/2009 02:10 PM

> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
>

Filesystems should be transparent to programs 99% of the time in my 
humble little opinion. If ext4 depends on having falloc() calls then 
ext4 has a bug. File a bug on it.

XFS, btrfs, or any file system that's better than the extX series don't 
seem to have issues with requiring this function call.



From mike at cchtml.com  Mon Apr 27 20:46:39 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:46:39 -0500
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
	<49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <49F619AF.1010201@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
From: Dennis J. <dennisml at conversis.de>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/27/2009 02:48 PM

> 
> That's really my point. 2.6.30 will be out soon so 2.6.29 will be 
> outdated again. What is the motivation of putting this much work into a 
> kernel that will be outdated when released and only have a shelf-life of 
> 7 or 8 months. Is there some critical feature in there that makes 2.6.29 
> so much better than 2.6.27 to warrant this much effort for so little gain?
> 


2.6.29 works great on F10 for me and many others. Waiting for 2.6.30 is 
not required and will waste *more* time.

I need 2.6.29 on my laptop so that suspend works. That's kind of important.



From martin.sourada at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 20:51:11 2009
From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:51:11 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904271253h64ec1972s35b1fbcbfe0e07df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<e76492710904271253h64ec1972s35b1fbcbfe0e07df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240865471.18311.9.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>

On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 15:53 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> We could make odd releases with Gnome default and even releases KDE
> default. That way, we can get a better distributed feedback. Right
> now, I believe that there are more Gnome users out there just because
> it is the default. New users don't mess with the defaults.
> 
> Just an idea.
> Orcan
> 
That springs out a question out of curiosity - how many people are
actually using the DVD releases compared to our Live Spins? I mean, I
don't see much pros in the DVD based spin (which isn't even live, so you
cannot check if it will work before installation) and the other spins
are pretty much 'decentralised' desktop-wise sans the fact that for most
of Fedora, Desktop \approx GNOME (which means we have Desktop SIG that
takes care of GNOME stuff and KDE SIG taking care of KDE, similarly
Desktop Live spin being probably equal to what GNOME Live would be and
KDE spin and XFCE spin and LXDE spin and ...).
Martin
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From berrange at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 20:52:50 2009
From: berrange at redhat.com (Daniel P. Berrange)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:52:50 +0100
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F618B8.3030201@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <20090427203319.GC18260@redhat.com>
	<49F618B8.3030201@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090427205250.GF18260@redhat.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 03:42:32PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
> Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 02:10:10PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
> >> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
> >> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
> >>
> >> One big feature that has already been brought up on the list[1] is file
> >> preallocation, which allows an application to pre-allocate blocks it
> >> knows that it will eventually write into, thereby making sure it won't
> >> run out of space, and also generally getting a more efficient/contiguous
> >> file layout.
> >>
> >> * Come up with a list of apps which could benefit:
> > [snip]
> >>   - virt image tools?
> > 
> > We're one step ahead of you !  libvirt supports it as of 0.6.3 for its
> > raw file storage management APIs, and this is in Fedora 11 trees
> 
> Cool!
> 
> > http://git.et.redhat.com/?p=libvirt.git;a=commit;h=70e7672184ff639856d5f2f3bf7849464031dff9
> > 
> > Thanks to Amit Shah for doing the patch for us, and providing us some
> > compelling performance figures at the same time:
> > 
> > http://www.amitshah.net/2009/03/comparison-of-file-systems-and-speeding.html
> 
> Ah, that explains the call to posix_fallocate() I saw in the library :)
> 
> Just FWIW, this will still be slow on ext3, but fast on
> ext4/xfs/btrfs/ocfs2 - as Amit's blog entry shows, I guess.
> 
> If you didn't want to fall back to the slow behavior on ext3, you might
> consider only using fallocate() if it's there, rather than
> posix_fallocate().  But the behavior is up to you of course.  :)

For this particular use case we want to it always fully allocate the
blocks, even if that means slowly writing lots of zeros. We run this
code in the background anyway, so it wouldn't block apps completely
in the slow path.

Daniel
-- 
|: Red Hat, Engineering, London   -o-   http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :|
|: http://libvirt.org  -o-  http://virt-manager.org  -o-  http://ovirt.org :|
|: http://autobuild.org       -o-         http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
|: GnuPG: 7D3B9505  -o-  F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505 :|



From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 20:53:49 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:53:49 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F6193E.1010103@cchtml.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6193E.1010103@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <49F61B5D.4070103@redhat.com>

Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
> From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora Core 
> <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Date: 04/27/2009 02:10 PM
> 
>> Now that we have ext4 as the new default filesystem, it'd be nice if we
>> can get more applications to take advantage of some of the features.
>>
> 
> Filesystems should be transparent to programs 99% of the time in my 
> humble little opinion. If ext4 depends on having falloc() calls then 
> ext4 has a bug. File a bug on it.
> 
> XFS, btrfs, or any file system that's better than the extX series don't 
> seem to have issues with requiring this function call.

You're missing the point here, I think.

Try downloading a large (multi-gigabyte) torrent on ext4 or xfs or
btrfs; see what the resulting file layout looks like if your client does
not preallocate.  Now use a client that preallocates the space and try
again.  Calling fallocate() first for the full file size will help on
all these filesystems (well, TBH, I have not tested it on btrfs).

If there are well-defined interfaces to give hints to the filesystem
about the ultimate state of a file, it's a nice feature, not a bug.

Sure, filesystems should do the best they can in the absence of hints,
but performing well (or better) _with_ a hint is not indicative of a bug.

-Eric



From mike at cchtml.com  Mon Apr 27 20:53:45 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:53:45 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240865471.18311.9.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>	<e76492710904271253h64ec1972s35b1fbcbfe0e07df@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240865471.18311.9.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <49F61B59.4010001@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Abandon "Default Desktop"
From: Martin Sourada <martin.sourada at gmail.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/27/2009 03:51 PM

> That springs out a question out of curiosity - how many people are
> actually using the DVD releases compared to our Live Spins? I mean, I
> don't see much pros in the DVD based spin
> 

On the Live CDs you can only install with the filesystem in use by the 
Live CD. (ext3, F10 - ext4, F11)

I wish to install systems with XFS, which requires the install DVD.



From mark.bidewell at alumni.clemson.edu  Mon Apr 27 20:57:37 2009
From: mark.bidewell at alumni.clemson.edu (Mark Bidewell)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:57:37 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240865471.18311.9.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6> 
	<e76492710904271253h64ec1972s35b1fbcbfe0e07df@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240865471.18311.9.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <bfdeacfa0904271357y53a963a8p9103e29ce393b14f@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Martin Sourada <martin.sourada at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 15:53 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> > We could make odd releases with Gnome default and even releases KDE
> > default. That way, we can get a better distributed feedback. Right
> > now, I believe that there are more Gnome users out there just because
> > it is the default. New users don't mess with the defaults.
> >
> > Just an idea.
> > Orcan
> >
> That springs out a question out of curiosity - how many people are
> actually using the DVD releases compared to our Live Spins? I mean, I
> don't see much pros in the DVD based spin (which isn't even live, so you
> cannot check if it will work before installation) and the other spins
> are pretty much 'decentralised' desktop-wise sans the fact that for most
> of Fedora, Desktop \approx GNOME (which means we have Desktop SIG that
> takes care of GNOME stuff and KDE SIG taking care of KDE, similarly
> Desktop Live spin being probably equal to what GNOME Live would be and
> KDE spin and XFCE spin and LXDE spin and ...).
> Martin
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

I haven't tried the live CD recently but the last time I tried installing
the KDE live CD, the resulting image had some annoying oddities, I have used
the DVDs since then.  I think this is related to the fact that the live CD
essentially "ghosts" the CD onto the hard drive (correct me if I'm wrong).

-- 
Mark Bidewell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/markbidewell
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From mike at cchtml.com  Mon Apr 27 21:00:32 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:00:32 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F61B5D.4070103@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6193E.1010103@cchtml.com>
	<49F61B5D.4070103@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F61CF0.5030908@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/27/2009 03:53 PM

> 
> Try downloading a large (multi-gigabyte) torrent on ext4 or xfs or
> btrfs; see what the resulting file layout looks like if your client does
> not preallocate.  Now use a client that preallocates the space and try
> again.  Calling fallocate() first for the full file size will help on
> all these filesystems (well, TBH, I have not tested it on btrfs).
> 
> If there are well-defined interfaces to give hints to the filesystem
> about the ultimate state of a file, it's a nice feature, not a bug.
> 
> Sure, filesystems should do the best they can in the absence of hints,
> but performing well (or better) _with_ a hint is not indicative of a bug.
> 

I can truely only speak for XFS, but btrfs might be similar:

XFS waits[1] to allocate space for a few seconds in order to see the 
full file size of the write() you want to commit. This allows for a more 
complete allocation at the cost of data integrity.

deluge, one bittorrent client, gives you the option of full or dynamic 
allocation. I download multi-gigabyte torrents often with deluge and 
full allocation.

In the end -- SSDs should be cheaper so this discussion is moot.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xfs#Delayed_allocation



From gbofspam at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 21:07:44 2009
From: gbofspam at gmail.com (Andrew Parker)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:07:44 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240865471.18311.9.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<e76492710904271253h64ec1972s35b1fbcbfe0e07df@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240865471.18311.9.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <6c3f5e6c0904271407p5b0bade2q83fd965d28861722@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Martin Sourada
<martin.sourada at gmail.com> wrote:

> That springs out a question out of curiosity - how many people are
> actually using the DVD releases compared to our Live Spins?

I don't do either, I do a network install.



From kyle at mcmartin.ca  Mon Apr 27 21:07:42 2009
From: kyle at mcmartin.ca (Kyle McMartin)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:07:42 -0400
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F61CF0.5030908@cchtml.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6193E.1010103@cchtml.com>
	<49F61B5D.4070103@redhat.com> <49F61CF0.5030908@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <20090427210742.GA5264@bombadil.infradead.org>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 04:00:32PM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
> From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Date: 04/27/2009 03:53 PM
>
>>
>> Try downloading a large (multi-gigabyte) torrent on ext4 or xfs or
>> btrfs; see what the resulting file layout looks like if your client does
>> not preallocate.  Now use a client that preallocates the space and try
>> again.  Calling fallocate() first for the full file size will help on
>> all these filesystems (well, TBH, I have not tested it on btrfs).
>>
>> If there are well-defined interfaces to give hints to the filesystem
>> about the ultimate state of a file, it's a nice feature, not a bug.
>>
>> Sure, filesystems should do the best they can in the absence of hints,
>> but performing well (or better) _with_ a hint is not indicative of a bug.
>>
>
> I can truely only speak for XFS, but btrfs might be similar:
>

Ha. Ha. Ha.

No. Sandeen can speak for XFS.

kthnx.



From bnocera at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 21:13:51 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:13:51 +0100
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240860876.2567.16.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240860876.2567.16.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <1240866831.5037.5088.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 20:34 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 19:22 +0200, Julian Aloofi wrote:
> > 
> > Wondeful! Everytime I install Fedora from the DVD and uncheck GNOME, all
> > applications and even the system-config tools, for some reason big parts
> > of GNOME get pulled in as dependencies 
> 
> It got better in F-11.... you can't remove pulseaudio any more without
> also removing bluez :)

You already whinged about that in Bugzilla, maybe it's enough.

That's the price of progress, we wanted users to be able to use their
Bluetooth headsets without dropping to a terminal, or editing funky
config files.



From craftjml at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 21:17:14 2009
From: craftjml at gmail.com (Jud Craft)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:17:14 -0500
Subject: Question about F10 Freetype's autohinter
Message-ID: <20d6441a0904271417m10bf50cj2d0bd4db51f565a1@mail.gmail.com>

Does grayscale full-hinting not work in Fedora's freetype?

Switching between full and medium hinting seems to have no effect in
F10.  The font rendering does not change.  I am certain I have no
bizarre ~/.fonts.conf or /etc/fonts/local.conf settings.

Full hinting _does_ work when subpixel-smoothing is used.  But if I
recall, the fact that subpixel-smoothing works at all in F10 is due to
an oversight by the developers, which will be rolled back in F11.

Is full-hinting only available when subpixel-smoothing is on?  I
recall that Ubuntu seems to support both full and medium hinting, even
in grayscale mode.  (Although the last time I tried it was back around
7.10, so it's highly possible things have changed since then).

It is true that Ubuntu also uses the patented bytecode interpreter
instead of the autohinter.  However, even if you enable that in Fedora
with freetype-freeworld, there still seems to be no distinction
between medium/full hinting in Fedora, when using grayscale smoothing.



From mike at cchtml.com  Mon Apr 27 21:18:54 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:18:54 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F61B5D.4070103@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6193E.1010103@cchtml.com>
	<49F61B5D.4070103@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F6213E.30807@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/27/2009 03:53 PM

> 
> You're missing the point here, I think.
> 
> Try downloading a large (multi-gigabyte) torrent on ext4 or xfs or
> btrfs; see what the resulting file layout looks like if your client does
> not preallocate.  Now use a client that preallocates the space and try
> again.  Calling fallocate() first for the full file size will help on
> all these filesystems (well, TBH, I have not tested it on btrfs).
> 
> If there are well-defined interfaces to give hints to the filesystem
> about the ultimate state of a file, it's a nice feature, not a bug.
> 
> Sure, filesystems should do the best they can in the absence of hints,
> but performing well (or better) _with_ a hint is not indicative of a bug.
> 


I apologize. I'm a rambling idiot. Please carry on without me.



From kevin at scrye.com  Mon Apr 27 21:44:11 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:44:11 -0600
Subject: RFE: Add -p to the diff options to provide more context in
 commit mails
In-Reply-To: <20090423183541.41be4f57@dhcp-100-2-144.bos.redhat.com>
References: <20090423183541.41be4f57@dhcp-100-2-144.bos.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090427154411.01dd4978@ohm.scrye.com>

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:35:41 -0400
Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com> wrote:

> This trivial patch adds more context to the diffs in commit mails:
> 
> --- CVSROOT.orig/syncmail
> +++ CVSROOT/syncmail
> @@ -147,7 +147,7 @@ def calculate_diff(filespec):
>          brief = ""
>          if optNoDiff:
>              brief = "--brief"
> -        diffcmd = '/usr/bin/cvs -f diff %s -kk -u -N -r %s -r %s %s'
> % (
> +        diffcmd = '/usr/bin/cvs -f diff %s -kk -u -p -N -r %s -r %s
> %s' % ( brief,
>              oldrev, newrev, file)
>          fp = os.popen(diffcmd)
> 

I have added this patch to syncmail. 

Please let me know if you spot any problems with it. 

kevin
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From pemboa at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 21:46:03 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:46:03 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/27 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>:
> This is a free distribution.
>
> If you don't like _any_ default choice, feel free to make your own
> spin ;)
>
> That said: I think, a default desktop is needed as well as a default
> color sheme or a default name: You need something that helps people to
> recognize fedora. That's all.


You're going to have to back that up with some reason as who why a
default desktop is needed.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From nathanael at gnat.ca  Mon Apr 27 21:53:18 2009
From: nathanael at gnat.ca (Nathanael D. Noblet)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:53:18 -0600
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
	<49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <49F6294E.9040209@gnat.ca>

Dennis J. wrote:
> That's really my point. 2.6.30 will be out soon so 2.6.29 will be 
> outdated again. What is the motivation of putting this much work into a 
> kernel that will be outdated when released and only have a shelf-life of 
> 7 or 8 months. Is there some critical feature in there that makes 2.6.29 
> so much better than 2.6.27 to warrant this much effort for so little gain?

Not being involved in the work involved for 2.6.29, but totally enjoying 
it. It fixes a number of issues I've had on my system with various 
hardware (USB, graphics...)

-- 
Nathanael d. Noblet
T: 403.875.4613



From pemboa at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 21:53:40 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:53:40 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240865471.18311.9.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<e76492710904271253h64ec1972s35b1fbcbfe0e07df@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240865471.18311.9.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904271453g770fafb3ya1544d87bfc05931@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Martin Sourada
<martin.sourada at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 15:53 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> We could make odd releases with Gnome default and even releases KDE
>> default. That way, we can get a better distributed feedback. Right
>> now, I believe that there are more Gnome users out there just because
>> it is the default. New users don't mess with the defaults.
>>
>> Just an idea.
>> Orcan
>>
> That springs out a question out of curiosity - how many people are
> actually using the DVD releases compared to our Live Spins?


Every thing promotes Gnome as the blessed default, so it's more than
the DVD that is at issue.

One of the reasons i stopped using the DVD was because of how
troublesome it is to not get Gnome.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Mon Apr 27 21:54:53 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:54:53 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <939dd5750904271309ha7fceb3p958e997269fffeff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240599032.3063.18.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090424193354.GA21421@dspnet.fr.eu.org>
	<1240601749.2984.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240611675.3955.258.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240613329.21153.12.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240735394.21153.814.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<939dd5750904271309ha7fceb3p958e997269fffeff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240869293.2567.29.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 16:09 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote:
> Actually, I think this is pretty close to the UI we want and, modulo
> the input selection and one or two other technical limitations that
> are being worked on, it should be nearly complete.  I designed it with
> help from Matthew Paul Thomas - and with oh a bit of inspiration from
> a popular and highly regarded operating system.  I feel very strongly
> that we shouldn't be compromising our designs to cater to the lowest
> common denominator of broken hardware and drivers - and definitely not
> for something as easy to fix as a unimplemented feature.

I like the UI; I think you did a good job.

But we mustn't lose sight of the fact that we can't always get
everything right -- there will _always_ be a need for users to tweak
something to make it work optimally.

For example, on the two laptops I've tried with PulseAudio on F-11 so
far I can't even turn the volume right up using your UI -- I need to run
a different mixer and turn the 'Front' slider to maximum, because it
starts on about 80%.

I think it's necessary to give _conditional_ access to the full
controls, even though I agree wholeheartedly that we shouldn't expose
all that mess by default.

I think that the compromise we've settled on for F-11, where there's a
completely different application buried in the menus which many users
might not even find, is quite a poor one. It should be properly
integrated.

-- 
David Woodhouse                            Open Source Technology Centre
David.Woodhouse at intel.com                              Intel Corporation



From kevin at scrye.com  Mon Apr 27 21:54:56 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:54:56 -0600
Subject: RFE: Makefile.common patch to error out when no spec is present
In-Reply-To: <49F5BDFF.4020208@redhat.com>
References: <20090424155448.47d55388@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F5BDFF.4020208@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090427155456.7bba8833@ohm.scrye.com>

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:15:27 +0200
Karsten Hopp <karsten at redhat.com> wrote:

...snip...

> This should fix builds from a single-distribution CVS tree which you
> can check out p.e. with 'cvs co F-11'. This broke one year ago with
> Makefile.common cvs release 1.95 as those changes didn't consider the
> different directory layout for the single-distribution CVS tree (p.e.
> it is .../vim/F-11 for the complete checkout but .../F-11/vim when
> you check out just one single distribution)

Hum. I can't do a 'cvs co F-11' anymore... how do you get that part
working? 

(I thought we broke that in trying to make the cvs modules file scale
to the number of packages we have). 

> 
>     Karsten
> 

kevin
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From behdad at behdad.org  Mon Apr 27 21:56:51 2009
From: behdad at behdad.org (Behdad Esfahbod)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:56:51 -0400
Subject: Question about F10 Freetype's autohinter
In-Reply-To: <20d6441a0904271417m10bf50cj2d0bd4db51f565a1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20d6441a0904271417m10bf50cj2d0bd4db51f565a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F62A23.30807@behdad.org>

On 04/27/2009 05:17 PM, Jud Craft wrote:
> Does grayscale full-hinting not work in Fedora's freetype?
>
> Switching between full and medium hinting seems to have no effect in
> F10.  The font rendering does not change.  I am certain I have no
> bizarre ~/.fonts.conf or /etc/fonts/local.conf settings.

Nothing that we patch here.  Try with upstream FreeType?

behdad

> Full hinting _does_ work when subpixel-smoothing is used.  But if I
> recall, the fact that subpixel-smoothing works at all in F10 is due to
> an oversight by the developers, which will be rolled back in F11.
>
> Is full-hinting only available when subpixel-smoothing is on?  I
> recall that Ubuntu seems to support both full and medium hinting, even
> in grayscale mode.  (Although the last time I tried it was back around
> 7.10, so it's highly possible things have changed since then).
>
> It is true that Ubuntu also uses the patented bytecode interpreter
> instead of the autohinter.  However, even if you enable that in Fedora
> with freetype-freeworld, there still seems to be no distinction
> between medium/full hinting in Fedora, when using grayscale smoothing.
>



From sandeen at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 22:02:41 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:02:41 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F61CF0.5030908@cchtml.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
	<49F6193E.1010103@cchtml.com>	<49F61B5D.4070103@redhat.com>
	<49F61CF0.5030908@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <49F62B81.9090808@redhat.com>

Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
> From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Date: 04/27/2009 03:53 PM
> 
>> Try downloading a large (multi-gigabyte) torrent on ext4 or xfs or
>> btrfs; see what the resulting file layout looks like if your client does
>> not preallocate.  Now use a client that preallocates the space and try
>> again.  Calling fallocate() first for the full file size will help on
>> all these filesystems (well, TBH, I have not tested it on btrfs).
>>
>> If there are well-defined interfaces to give hints to the filesystem
>> about the ultimate state of a file, it's a nice feature, not a bug.
>>
>> Sure, filesystems should do the best they can in the absence of hints,
>> but performing well (or better) _with_ a hint is not indicative of a bug.
>>
> 
> I can truely only speak for XFS, but btrfs might be similar:
> 
> XFS waits[1] to allocate space for a few seconds in order to see the 
> full file size of the write() you want to commit. This allows for a more 
> complete allocation at the cost of data integrity.

Thanks, I'm familiar with xfs.  Ext4 also implements delayed allocation.

And there is no cost to data integrity, really, if the opposite of
integrity is corruption.  What you're probably referring to is the lack
of ext3's 5s journal commit + data=ordered flush, but let's PLEASE not
rehash that thread.  ;)

But anyway, unless you can download your entire torrent within that
delalloc window, you may not benefit a whole lot from it.

Just for fun I downloaded the snap1 live dvd via deluge (which uses
rb_libtorrent for the backend) onto xfs using "full allocation" (which I
think really just means "fill the file in piecemeal as it arrives) and
got 2601 discontiguous extents... on ext4 I got 32 extents.  This is
actually indicative of some different ext4 allocator behavior, which
physical block gaps for logical block gaps; it may not be ideal in all
cases, but works pretty well in this one.  ;)

> deluge, one bittorrent client, gives you the option of full or dynamic 
> allocation. I download multi-gigabyte torrents often with deluge and 
> full allocation.
> 
> In the end -- SSDs should be cheaper so this discussion is moot.

Until the last spindle stops spinning, I'm not so sure.  :)  And FWIW,
while there may not be a seek penalty, highly fragmented files may still
cause you to do a lot of small IOs even on an ssd, so it's not
completely a non-issue.

> I apologize. I'm a rambling idiot. Please carry on without me.

Nah, no worries.  There is an awful lot of (sometimes mis-)information
out there, it's hard to keep track of it all, and good to have useful
discussions, I think.  :)

Maybe you can file an RFE against rb_libtorrent? :)

-Eric

> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xfs#Delayed_allocation
> 



From naheemzaffar at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 22:04:15 2009
From: naheemzaffar at gmail.com (Naheem Zaffar)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 23:04:15 +0100
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/27 Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com>

> 2009/4/27 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>:
> > This is a free distribution.
> >
> > If you don't like _any_ default choice, feel free to make your own
> > spin ;)
> >
> > That said: I think, a default desktop is needed as well as a default
> > color sheme or a default name: You need something that helps people to
> > recognize fedora. That's all.
>
>
> You're going to have to back that up with some reason as who why a
> default desktop is needed.
>

A distribution is more than just a collection of packages stored in a semi
convenient location. New users also need to be given informed choices.

The extreme to not choosing sensible defaults is to present the user with a
list of all the packages, none clicked and ask them to choose exactly what
they want. I am sure the users will thank Fedora for that...

Choice is only good when its informed choice. A person can only truly choose
if he/she knows what the choices entail - a new user will not know what DE
is better suited by him/her before trying them all, so forcing a choice to
decide on one is just an illusion of choice.

When Fedora has defaults, to me it means that someone has put some thought
into this, into making it all coherent. And that is a good thing. If I
disagree with any default, I can then try to work around it, but that would
only be a 1% change decision in most cases instead of forcing the end user
to choose 100% of the components.
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From dennis at ausil.us  Mon Apr 27 22:07:13 2009
From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:07:13 -0500
Subject: RFE: Makefile.common patch to error out when no spec is present
In-Reply-To: <20090427155456.7bba8833@ohm.scrye.com>
References: <20090424155448.47d55388@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F5BDFF.4020208@redhat.com>
	<20090427155456.7bba8833@ohm.scrye.com>
Message-ID: <200904271707.26174.dennis@ausil.us>

On Monday 27 April 2009 04:54:56 pm Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:15:27 +0200
> Karsten Hopp <karsten at redhat.com> wrote:
>
> ...snip...
>
> > This should fix builds from a single-distribution CVS tree which you
> > can check out p.e. with 'cvs co F-11'. This broke one year ago with
> > Makefile.common cvs release 1.95 as those changes didn't consider the
> > different directory layout for the single-distribution CVS tree (p.e.
> > it is .../vim/F-11 for the complete checkout but .../F-11/vim when
> > you check out just one single distribution)
>
> Hum. I can't do a 'cvs co F-11' anymore... how do you get that part
> working?
>
> (I thought we broke that in trying to make the cvs modules file scale
> to the number of packages we have).

we disabled vhecking out  release modules, it was causing a huge slowdown in 
cvs actions.  you can check out devel still i think but that is all.  

Dennis
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From jspaleta at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 22:17:14 2009
From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:17:14 -0800
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240866831.5037.5088.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240860876.2567.16.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1240866831.5037.5088.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <604aa7910904271517y1673dc2aj2a465b5b69c02c01@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> wrote:
> That's the price of progress, we wanted users to be able to use their
> Bluetooth headsets without dropping to a terminal, or editing funky
> config files.

I heartily thank you for the effort.  I _could_ mangle config files
for myself, but I don't want to _have_ to do that and I certainly
don't want to deal with that level of complexity on my wife's computer
so we can voip with ekiga.

-jef



From caillon at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 22:23:25 2009
From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:23:25 -0700
Subject: RFE: Makefile.common patch to error out when no spec is present
In-Reply-To: <200904271707.26174.dennis@ausil.us>
References: <20090424155448.47d55388@ohm.scrye.com>	<49F5BDFF.4020208@redhat.com>	<20090427155456.7bba8833@ohm.scrye.com>
	<200904271707.26174.dennis@ausil.us>
Message-ID: <49F6305D.1050706@redhat.com>

On 04/27/2009 03:07 PM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
> On Monday 27 April 2009 04:54:56 pm Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:15:27 +0200
>> Karsten Hopp<karsten at redhat.com>  wrote:
>>
>> ...snip...
>>
>>> This should fix builds from a single-distribution CVS tree which you
>>> can check out p.e. with 'cvs co F-11'. This broke one year ago with
>>> Makefile.common cvs release 1.95 as those changes didn't consider the
>>> different directory layout for the single-distribution CVS tree (p.e.
>>> it is .../vim/F-11 for the complete checkout but .../F-11/vim when
>>> you check out just one single distribution)
>> Hum. I can't do a 'cvs co F-11' anymore... how do you get that part
>> working?
>>
>> (I thought we broke that in trying to make the cvs modules file scale
>> to the number of packages we have).
>
> we disabled vhecking out  release modules, it was causing a huge slowdown in
> cvs actions.  you can check out devel still i think but that is all.

I think checking out release modules still needs to be possible.  If 
that means we need to use a read-only mirror to facilitate this, I'd be 
okay with it, but not being able to check out a tree is a pretty bad 
regression that I just ran into.  For the record, it would make doing 
moz security updates much more scriptable as I don't need to rely on 
people telling me when their packages need to be added/dropped to the 
auto rebuilds.



From pemboa at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 22:30:44 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:30:44 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Naheem Zaffar <naheemzaffar at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2009/4/27 Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com>
>>
>> 2009/4/27 Christoph H?ger <choeger at cs.tu-berlin.de>:
>> > This is a free distribution.
>> >
>> > If you don't like _any_ default choice, feel free to make your own
>> > spin ;)
>> >
>> > That said: I think, a default desktop is needed as well as a default
>> > color sheme or a default name: You need something that helps people to
>> > recognize fedora. That's all.
>>
>>
>> You're going to have to back that up with some reason as who why a
>> default desktop is needed.
>
> A distribution is more than just a collection of packages stored in a semi
> convenient location. New users also need to be given informed choices.
>
> The extreme to not choosing sensible defaults is to present the user with a
> list of all the packages, none clicked and ask them to choose exactly what
> they want. I am sure the users will thank Fedora for that...
>
> Choice is only good when its informed choice. A person can only truly choose
> if he/she knows what the choices entail - a new user will not know what DE
> is better suited by him/her before trying them all, so forcing a choice to
> decide on one is just an illusion of choice.
>
> When Fedora has defaults, to me it means that someone has put some thought
> into this, into making it all coherent. And that is a good thing. If I
> disagree with any default, I can then try to work around it, but that would
> only be a 1% change decision in most cases instead of forcing the end user
> to choose 100% of the components.


What's the criteria being used to decide the default desktop?

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From a.badger at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 22:30:03 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:30:03 -0700
Subject: RFE: Makefile.common patch to error out when no spec is present
In-Reply-To: <49F6305D.1050706@redhat.com>
References: <20090424155448.47d55388@ohm.scrye.com>	<49F5BDFF.4020208@redhat.com>	<20090427155456.7bba8833@ohm.scrye.com>	<200904271707.26174.dennis@ausil.us>
	<49F6305D.1050706@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F631EB.2050209@gmail.com>

Christopher Aillon wrote:
> I think checking out release modules still needs to be possible.  If
> that means we need to use a read-only mirror to facilitate this, I'd be
> okay with it, but not being able to check out a tree is a pretty bad
> regression that I just ran into.  For the record, it would make doing
> moz security updates much more scriptable as I don't need to rely on
> people telling me when their packages need to be added/dropped to the
> auto rebuilds.
> 
I think we'd need a new script to enable this.  Checking out, editing,
and committing the modules file was responsible for making mass
branching take over two days (rather than ~ 4 hours) two releases ago.
So having a separate mirror for people looking to checkout a release
module is only half of the work... populating it is what we really need
to figure out.

-Toshio

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From naheemzaffar at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 22:56:50 2009
From: naheemzaffar at gmail.com (Naheem Zaffar)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 23:56:50 +0100
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/27 Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com>

> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Naheem Zaffar <naheemzaffar at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > When Fedora has defaults, to me it means that someone has put some
> thought
> > into this, into making it all coherent. And that is a good thing. If I
> > disagree with any default, I can then try to work around it, but that
> would
> > only be a 1% change decision in most cases instead of forcing the end
> user
> > to choose 100% of the components.
>
>
> What's the criteria being used to decide the default desktop?


The people who work on it, develop it choosing choosing the defaults as so.
If I did not trust them on their decisions, I would not be using their
products (as much?).

(Trust as opposed to agree as I can disagree and change the
settings/programs.)
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Mon Apr 27 23:20:05 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:20:05 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240688020.5037.2076.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
	<1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240640577.3011.9.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240663614.5037.1654.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240680634.11465.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240688020.5037.2076.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240874405.3789.12.camel@adam.local.net>

On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 20:33 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 10:30 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Sat, 2009-04-25 at 13:46 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> <snip>
> > Those are all good points - as long as the issues Dave Airlie brought up
> > (about how it still identifies itself as g-v-c and hence would
> > presumably conflict if both were installed at once) are addressed, I'm
> > perfectly happy for the old g-v-c to be used instead. Should we start
> > filing bugs for Brian?
> 
> Well, you'd need to do a bit of work on the spec file, but there's
> nothing there that wouldn't be straight forward.
> 
> You'd need to remove all the bits you're not interested about (most of
> them should be disable-able through configure switches), rename the
> binary (and binary name in the desktop file, and schemas), and change
> the GETTEXT_PACKAGE so it doesn't conflict with gnome-media.

Doesn't seem to be quite so straightforward. I've done the above and got
it to build and mostly work, but it's still buggy. Here's the SRPM:

http://adamwill.fedorapeople.org/gst-mixer-2.26.0-2.aw_fc11.src.rpm

if you switch from one device to another and back again, it stops
showing any tab but the 'Sound Theme' tab. Must be some kind of
configuration info being lost somehow by the name change, I guess? I
can't figure it out exactly, though.

Also note that some icons are missing, I guess it's looking for them in
the wrong place somehow. Can't figure that out either.

If anyone can fix these issues it'd be appreciated.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From ndbecker2 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 23:27:52 2009
From: ndbecker2 at gmail.com (Neal Becker)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:27:52 -0400
Subject: help with building dependant packages
Message-ID: <gt5f1o$uj6$1@ger.gmane.org>

Sorry, I know I asked this before, but I can't seem to find the info.

I need to update packages igraph and python-igraph.  I build igraph in 
rawhide, but python-igraph build fails, apparantly igraph is not available 
in rawhide mock env.

1. What do I need to do to build these 2 packages on rawhide?

2. What is the procedure for F9, F10, F11?

Is there a link that discusses this?




From kevin at scrye.com  Mon Apr 27 23:44:48 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:44:48 -0600
Subject: help with building dependant packages
In-Reply-To: <gt5f1o$uj6$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gt5f1o$uj6$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090427174448.0df83900@ohm.scrye.com>

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:27:52 -0400
Neal Becker <ndbecker2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, I know I asked this before, but I can't seem to find the info.
> 
> I need to update packages igraph and python-igraph.  I build igraph
> in rawhide, but python-igraph build fails, apparantly igraph is not
> available in rawhide mock env.
> 
> 1. What do I need to do to build these 2 packages on rawhide?

if by rawhide you mean the package from the 'devel' branch (ie, fc12)
then you should be able to just build the first one, wait for the
newrepo task that starts after that build to finish, then build the
second one. Such tasks have been taking about 30-40min these days I
think. 

> 2. What is the procedure for F9, F10, F11?

For those, build the first package. 
Then file a ticket with rel-eng explaining you need a buildroot
override and listing the specific package you need added. 
Then, build the next package after thats done. 

> Is there a link that discusses this?

Not sure there is.. ;( 
Perhaps there should be. 

kevin
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From tibbs at math.uh.edu  Tue Apr 28 00:00:08 2009
From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:00:08 -0500
Subject: Agenda for the 2009-04-28 Packaging Committee meeting
Message-ID: <ufaljplk5pz.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>

The Packaging Committee will meet Tuesday, 2009-04-14 at 17:00UTC in
the #fedora-meeting channel on chat.freenode.net.

FPC works from the agenda at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/GuidelinesTodo; here are some
things which should be brought up for discussion at the next meeting:

GConf scriptlets -
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/ScriptletSnippets/GConf

Globus -
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/Globus

Compiler Flags -
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Compiler_Flags_(draft)

 - J<



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 00:05:31 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:05:31 -0700
Subject: Mixer issues: please file a report if you are affected
Message-ID: <1240877131.3789.46.camel@adam.local.net>

I have just sent the following instructions to everyone who sent an
email to this list, or to -test-list, indicating they are suffering from
a manifestation of the bug whereby the simple PulseAudio-implemented
'Volume' control in gnome-volume-control cannot properly control their
volume. I'm also sending it to the lists to catch anyone I missed, or
who didn't post about it but nevertheless is suffering. If you are
suffering from this issue - if g-v-c does not properly control your
volume and you have to use alsamixer to get output at a usable level
(*not* if you need alsamixer to switch input devices or set input
volumes, at least not for now) - please file a report according to these
instructions. Thanks.

We're trying to get these kinds of bugs fixed. It would be very helpful
if you could file a bug at http://bugzilla.redhat.com , on the
pulseaudio package in Rawhide. Please include the following information.

1. Attach the file /tmp/alsa-info.txt, after running 'alsa-info.sh
--no-upload'

2. To find out exactly what you had to change to control your volume,
please do this, as root:

alsactl init
amixer -c0 > amixer_before.txt

Now verify that your problem exists again. Then run a mixer and make the
changes you have to make to 'resolve' your problem. Then go back to
running commands:

amixer -c0 > amixer_after.txt
diff -u amixer_before.txt amixer_after.txt > amixer_diff.txt

Then attach the file 'amixer_diff.txt' to the bug report. The commands
above assume the important sound device is card #0 in the output of
'cat /proc/asound/cards' . If this is not the case, change -c0 in each
of the above commands to -cN, where N is the actual number of the
important device in 'cat /proc/asound/cards' - for instance, if it's
card number 2 in that list, change all -c0 to -c2 .

3. Also please include an exact description of the problem, including
how your card behaves before the problem is fixed, how it behaves after
the problem is fixed, and information on your actual sound output device
- are you using a simple pair of computer speakers? Internal speakers on
a laptop? Headphones? A digital S/PDIF connection to an external
decoder?

Once you have done this, please let me know the number of your bug
report. We will then work to make sure as many of these bugs are
resolved as possible. You may be contacted for further information, or a
confirmation of the fix, on the bug report, so please keep an eye on it
after filing. Thanks very much for your help!
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From dennisml at conversis.de  Tue Apr 28 00:12:10 2009
From: dennisml at conversis.de (Dennis J.)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:12:10 +0200
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904272134480.13243@vega1.dur.ac.uk>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904272134480.13243@vega1.dur.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <49F649DA.1060908@conversis.de>

On 04/27/2009 10:42 PM, M A Young wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Dennis J. wrote:
>
>> That's really my point. 2.6.30 will be out soon so 2.6.29 will be
>> outdated again. What is the motivation of putting this much work into
>> a kernel that will be outdated when released and only have a
>> shelf-life of 7 or 8 months. Is there some critical feature in there
>> that makes 2.6.29 so much better than 2.6.27 to warrant this much
>> effort for so little gain?
>
> By that argument you would never update at all, because there will
> always be a new kernel coming along in a few months. There is also a
> cost to standing still, because things go out of date, and they would
> have to work to back-port patches for security fixes etc.

That makes sense for a long lived distribution but not really for fedora. 
If I really need to be running the latest versions then I'll update to the 
next version of fedora when it comes out which is always a maximum of 6 
months away. I'm certain there are some fixes in the new kernel that some 
people will appreciate and there is certainly no harm in getting them but 
actually spending all this time on apparently rather complex problems 
between these two kernel versions seems strange if the result will be that 
short-lived.

I'm mean 2.6.27 isn't the freshest kernel but it doesn't look that bad to 
me that people couldn't wait for the release of f11 which is right around 
the corner.

Regards,
   Dennis



From kevin at scrye.com  Tue Apr 28 00:13:38 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:13:38 -0600
Subject: Virtualization comps group in f11
In-Reply-To: <20090427170707.GA12844@poweredge.glommer>
References: <20090426205240.679ed459@ohm.scrye.com>
	<20090427142320.GA53261@redhat.com>
	<20090427170707.GA12844@poweredge.glommer>
Message-ID: <20090427181338.7bba8e7d@ohm.scrye.com>

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:07:07 -0300
Glauber Costa <glommer at redhat.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:23:20AM -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 26 2009, Kevin Fenzi said:
> > > - Is there a unexpected yum behavior here? Or is a virtual
> > > provides not allowed in a comps group?
> > 
> > The list of package names in groups of the  comps file are just
> > that, package names.  Provides, filenames, etc are not allowed[1]
> this is my bad then. I believe it were perfectly valid.
> 
> Formerly, we were installing qemu-system-x86 and qemu-system-ppc, to
> allow for virtualization in both platforms we support kvm. But then
> some users were confused about system-ppc being installed in x86...
> 
> We can go back to this scheme if it is better.

Personally, I think just installing qemu is probibly fine. 

You could do as notting suggests and revive a qemu-kvm package, but
thats seems pretty late for F11. 

Can someone modify comps at least so it works for F11? :) 

kevin

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From tibbs at math.uh.edu  Tue Apr 28 00:26:51 2009
From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:26:51 -0500
Subject: Agenda for the 2009-04-28 Packaging Committee meeting
In-Reply-To: <ufaljplk5pz.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu> (Jason L. Tibbitts,
	III's message of "Mon\, 27 Apr 2009 19\:00\:08 -0500")
References: <ufaljplk5pz.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>
Message-ID: <ufahc09k4hg.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>

>>>>> "JLT" == Jason L Tibbitts <tibbs at math.uh.edu> writes:

JLT> The Packaging Committee will meet Tuesday, 2009-04-14 at 17:00UTC
JLT> in the #fedora-meeting channel on chat.freenode.net.

Bah, 2009-04-28, of course.  All other info is correct.

 - J<



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 00:51:38 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:51:38 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240874405.3789.12.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>
	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>
	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>
	<1240620015.2984.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F26BED.2050706@redhat.com>
	<1240625355.5037.1012.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240640577.3011.9.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240663614.5037.1654.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240680634.11465.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<1240688020.5037.2076.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
	<1240874405.3789.12.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240879898.3789.52.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 16:20 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

> Doesn't seem to be quite so straightforward. I've done the above and got
> it to build and mostly work, but it's still buggy. Here's the SRPM:
> 
> http://adamwill.fedorapeople.org/gst-mixer-2.26.0-2.aw_fc11.src.rpm
> 
> if you switch from one device to another and back again, it stops
> showing any tab but the 'Sound Theme' tab. Must be some kind of
> configuration info being lost somehow by the name change, I guess? I
> can't figure it out exactly, though.

Actually, this bug appears to be:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-media/+bug/345645
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=576022

I'll look into that later...
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 00:52:04 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:52:04 -0700
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240778333.2969.7.camel@vaio.local.net>
References: <1240611244.24529.468.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090425013412.GC32162@tango.0pointer.de> <gt1ahs$ek$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090426151516.GB660@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240762511.5771.243.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240763314.21153.1263.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<6d959d480904261029i5dc9e139q526c73a7e84a687d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240767549.2969.2.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<20090426175001.GD18060@tango.0pointer.de>
	<1240768954.2969.6.camel@vaio.local.net>
	<f6ca9fed0904261220j27f164bage8ad30cf87564f22@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240778333.2969.7.camel@vaio.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240879924.3789.54.camel@adam.local.net>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 13:38 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 21:20 +0200, drago01 wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > I would be extremely surprised if the release of F11 - the first general
> > > audience release with this new mixer -
> > 
> > Afaik Ubuntu 9.04 ships with this mixer by default. (its upstream
> > gnome after all).
> 
> OK, first *Fedora* general audience release, sorry :). Of course, Ubuntu
> shipping it will just help unearth even more bugs...

For the record, drago was wrong: Ubuntu has not shipped with the new
mixer.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-media/+bug/324807

AFAICT, they are shipping the new version as the package
'gnome-volume-control-pulse', not installed by default.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From nathanael at gnat.ca  Tue Apr 28 00:56:46 2009
From: nathanael at gnat.ca (Nathanael D. Noblet)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:56:46 -0600
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <49F649DA.1060908@conversis.de>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904272134480.13243@vega1.dur.ac.uk>
	<49F649DA.1060908@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <49F6544E.5060906@gnat.ca>

Dennis J. wrote:
> That makes sense for a long lived distribution but not really for 
> fedora. If I really need to be running the latest versions then I'll 
> update to the next version of fedora when it comes out which is always a 
> maximum of 6 months away. I'm certain there are some fixes in the new 
> kernel that some people will appreciate and there is certainly no harm 
> in getting them but actually spending all this time on apparently rather 
> complex problems between these two kernel versions seems strange if the 
> result will be that short-lived.


Just out of curiosity, since you aren't the one expending the effort, 
why does it bother you that someone else is?


-- 
Nathanael d. Noblet
T: 403.875.4613



From craftjml at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 02:07:51 2009
From: craftjml at gmail.com (Jud Craft)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:07:51 -0400
Subject: Question about F10 Freetype's autohinter
In-Reply-To: <49F62A23.30807@behdad.org>
References: <20d6441a0904271417m10bf50cj2d0bd4db51f565a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F62A23.30807@behdad.org>
Message-ID: <20d6441a0904271907y35431478s6d627279fc698521@mail.gmail.com>

Ooh, thanks, but I'll pass on compiling my own freetype.  I actually
use non-hinted mostly, so it's a minor point for me.  Just wanted to
check if anyone else thought anything was out of whack -- so perhaps
this is the way it's supposed to be.

However, in the future I'll hop back and post the results here if I
try anything.

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <behdad at behdad.org> wrote:
> On 04/27/2009 05:17 PM, Jud Craft wrote:
>>
>> Does grayscale full-hinting not work in Fedora's freetype?
>>
>> Switching between full and medium hinting seems to have no effect in
>> F10. ?The font rendering does not change. ?I am certain I have no
>> bizarre ~/.fonts.conf or /etc/fonts/local.conf settings.
>
> Nothing that we patch here. ?Try with upstream FreeType?
>
> behdad
>
>> Full hinting _does_ work when subpixel-smoothing is used. ?But if I
>> recall, the fact that subpixel-smoothing works at all in F10 is due to
>> an oversight by the developers, which will be rolled back in F11.
>>
>> Is full-hinting only available when subpixel-smoothing is on? ?I
>> recall that Ubuntu seems to support both full and medium hinting, even
>> in grayscale mode. ?(Although the last time I tried it was back around
>> 7.10, so it's highly possible things have changed since then).
>>
>> It is true that Ubuntu also uses the patented bytecode interpreter
>> instead of the autohinter. ?However, even if you enable that in Fedora
>> with freetype-freeworld, there still seems to be no distinction
>> between medium/full hinting in Fedora, when using grayscale smoothing.
>>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



From ovasik at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 07:04:25 2009
From: ovasik at redhat.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ond=C5=99ej_Va=C5=A1=C3=ADk?=)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:04:25 +0200
Subject: Static system level uid/gid's reservations in Fedora/RHEL - how to
	handle situation?
Message-ID: <1240902265.3858.11.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com>

Hello,
at the moment static system level uid/gid's are handled by setup package
and /usr/share/doc/setup-*/uidgid file. There is threshold of system
uid/gid's - it's uid/gid 100. Another way to reserve "static" uid/gid
reservation is http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageUserRegistry ...
usable only for Fedora and only semi-static (as base id could be easily
changed).
As we are running out of the free uid/gid's in uidgid reservation file
(no free gid's in fact at the moment), it has to be solved somehow...
there are quite often requests for uidgid reservations as it increases
security in many cases...

What's the best way to handle that situation? One possibility is to
increase the threshold of system level id's (to 200? 300?), another is
to check current reservation and clean long-term unused reservations (I
doubt there are many such cases, so it's only temporary solution). Other
could be sharing groups (as static uid's are still available), but
that's not always good solution.

Any other idea or some prefered solution?

Greetings,
         Ond?ej Va??k
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From denis at poolshark.org  Tue Apr 28 08:07:17 2009
From: denis at poolshark.org (Denis Leroy)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:07:17 +0200
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F6B935.10204@poolshark.org>

On 04/27/2009 09:10 PM, Eric Sandeen wrote:
> Only a few applications are taking advantage of this so far, in part
> because it's new.[2]  The transmission bittorrent client is using it,
> but only if you tweak a configfile in (IMHO) non-obvious ways.

To enable this, change the preallocation settings from '1' (sparse) to 
'2' (full preallocation) in this file:

 > grep prealloc ~/.config/transmission/settings.json
     "preallocation": 2,

I've built transmission 1.52 with a patch that makes falloc() full 
allocation by default :

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1325998

although you'll still have to wipe out your ~/.config/transmission 
directory first if it already exists, or make the change described 
above. 1.52 will go to updates-testing after F-11 is released.

-denis



From denis at poolshark.org  Tue Apr 28 08:11:33 2009
From: denis at poolshark.org (Denis Leroy)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:11:33 +0200
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <49F6544E.5060906@gnat.ca>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904272134480.13243@vega1.dur.ac.uk>	<49F649DA.1060908@conversis.de>
	<49F6544E.5060906@gnat.ca>
Message-ID: <49F6BA35.2040801@poolshark.org>

On 04/28/2009 02:56 AM, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote:
> Dennis J. wrote:
>> That makes sense for a long lived distribution but not really for
>> fedora. If I really need to be running the latest versions then I'll
>> update to the next version of fedora when it comes out which is always
>> a maximum of 6 months away. I'm certain there are some fixes in the
>> new kernel that some people will appreciate and there is certainly no
>> harm in getting them but actually spending all this time on apparently
>> rather complex problems between these two kernel versions seems
>> strange if the result will be that short-lived.
>
>
> Just out of curiosity, since you aren't the one expending the effort,
> why does it bother you that someone else is?

Because of the regressions and breakage that this new kernel will 
invariably introduce. Personally, I also think this energy would be 
better spent on F-11/rawhide develompent...



From mike at miketc.net  Tue Apr 28 10:15:41 2009
From: mike at miketc.net (Mike Chambers)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 05:15:41 -0500
Subject: monitor goes black too soon
Message-ID: <1240913741.12436.3.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>

After a minute or two of no activity (even though reading a web page),
my monitor will go black. Like it was going to power off as if it was
set too.  But my settings are the same and changed.  My monitor is the
same as well as my card.  This just started happening after some updates
a day or two ago. And my screensaver isn't even starting yet.  The
monitor itself just goes black (like it detects no activity from
computer).

-- 
Mike Chambers
Madisonville, KY

Fedora Project - Bugzapper, Tester, User, etc..
miketc302 at fedoraproject.org



From fedora at camperquake.de  Tue Apr 28 10:47:24 2009
From: fedora at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:47:24 +0200
Subject: monitor goes black too soon
In-Reply-To: <1240913741.12436.3.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
References: <1240913741.12436.3.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
Message-ID: <20090428124724.6da9d14b@dhcp03.addix.net>

Hi.

On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 05:15:41 -0500, Mike Chambers wrote:

> After a minute or two of no activity (even though reading a web page),
> my monitor will go black. Like it was going to power off as if it was
> set too.  But my settings are the same and changed.  My monitor is the
> same as well as my card.  This just started happening after some
> updates a day or two ago. And my screensaver isn't even starting
> yet.  The monitor itself just goes black (like it detects no activity
> from computer).

Same here (it's a laptop, and the backlight actually is switched off).
Intel 945 chipset.



From tsalacinski at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 11:18:39 2009
From: tsalacinski at gmail.com (Tomasz =?UTF-8?Q?Sa=C5=82aci=C5=84ski?=)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:18:39 +0200
Subject: monitor goes black too soon
In-Reply-To: <20090428124724.6da9d14b@dhcp03.addix.net>
References: <1240913741.12436.3.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
	<20090428124724.6da9d14b@dhcp03.addix.net>
Message-ID: <1240917519.2274.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hello,

I had the same problem, but right now I see that if screensaver is set
to "Never" it will blank after one minute. If I set it to 2 hours, the
problem is gone.

Dnia 2009-04-28, wto o godzinie 12:47 +0200, Ralf Ertzinger pisze:
> Hi.
> 
> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 05:15:41 -0500, Mike Chambers wrote:
> 
> > After a minute or two of no activity (even though reading a web page),
> > my monitor will go black. Like it was going to power off as if it was
> > set too.  But my settings are the same and changed.  My monitor is the
> > same as well as my card.  This just started happening after some
> > updates a day or two ago. And my screensaver isn't even starting
> > yet.  The monitor itself just goes black (like it detects no activity
> > from computer).
> 
> Same here (it's a laptop, and the backlight actually is switched off).
> Intel 945 chipset.
> 



From johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com  Tue Apr 28 12:06:39 2009
From: johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com (jon doe)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:06:39 +0100
Subject: when does the f11 preview go live?
Message-ID: <ce81319e0904280506p6e0a21b7ke09b10ac552362c0@mail.gmail.com>

hey guys what tme does the f11 preview go live?

phil
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From ffesti at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 12:24:48 2009
From: ffesti at redhat.com (Florian Festi)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:24:48 +0200
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F6F590.6050506@redhat.com>

Eric Sandeen wrote:
>   - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)

The rpmdb is a bunch of db4 files. In don't think I want to interfere with 
the db4 engine...

I am not really sure whether preallocation offers that much benefit for file 
installation. May be if there is a parallel process also writing to the disk 
heavily - but such processes should probably have their own partition/disk. 
Would preallocation make sense for tar?

Let's ask the other way round: What are the costs of preallocation for - say 
2M files with 50GB overall content?

Florian



From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 12:24:31 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:24:31 -0400
Subject: when does the f11 preview go live?
In-Reply-To: <ce81319e0904280506p6e0a21b7ke09b10ac552362c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ce81319e0904280506p6e0a21b7ke09b10ac552362c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090428122431.GB13551@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 01:06:39PM +0100, jon doe wrote:
> hey guys what tme does the f11 preview go live?
> 
> phil

1400 UTC, or as close thereto as we can manage -- same as with all
releases:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/11/Schedule

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From ndbecker2 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 12:27:50 2009
From: ndbecker2 at gmail.com (Neal Becker)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:27:50 -0400
Subject: need help with mock
Message-ID: <gt6so7$sk1$1@ger.gmane.org>

Need to debug segfault with gcc-4.4 of python-igraph.  python-igraph 
requires igraph-devel, so here's what I tried:

 mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --install 
~/fedora/igraph/devel/igraph-0_5_2-1_fc12/igraph-0.5.2-1.fc11.x86_64.rpm 
INFO: mock.py version 0.9.14 starting...
State Changed: init plugins
State Changed: start
State Changed: lock buildroot
[nbecker at nbecker6 devel]$ mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --install 
~/fedora/igraph/devel/igraph-0_5_2-1_fc12/igraph-
devel-0.5.2-1.fc11.x86_64.rpm 
INFO: mock.py version 0.9.14 starting...
State Changed: init plugins
State Changed: start
State Changed: lock buildroot
[nbecker at nbecker6 devel]$ mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --install 
~/fedora/igraph/devel/igraph-0_5_2-1_fc12/igraph-
debuginfo-0.5.2-1.fc11.x86_64.rpm 
INFO: mock.py version 0.9.14 starting...
State Changed: init plugins
State Changed: start
State Changed: lock buildroot
[nbecker at nbecker6 devel]$ mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --rebuild --no-clean 
python-igraph-0.5.2-2.fc12.src.rpm 
INFO: mock.py version 0.9.14 starting...
State Changed: init plugins
State Changed: start
INFO: Start(python-igraph-0.5.2-2.fc12.src.rpm)  Config(fedora-rawhide-
x86_64)
State Changed: init
State Changed: lock buildroot
Mock Version: 0.9.14
INFO: Mock Version: 0.9.14
INFO: enabled root cache
INFO: enabled yum cache
State Changed: cleaning yum metadata
INFO: enabled ccache
State Changed: running yum
State Changed: setup
ERROR: Exception(python-igraph-0.5.2-2.fc12.src.rpm) Config(fedora-rawhide-
x86_64) 0 minutes 4 seconds
INFO: Results and/or logs in: /var/lib/mock/fedora-rawhide-x86_64/result
ERROR: Bad build req: No Package Found for igraph-devel = 0.5.2. Exiting.




From dennisml at conversis.de  Tue Apr 28 13:28:03 2009
From: dennisml at conversis.de (Dennis J.)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:28:03 +0200
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <49F6544E.5060906@gnat.ca>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904272134480.13243@vega1.dur.ac.uk>	<49F649DA.1060908@conversis.de>
	<49F6544E.5060906@gnat.ca>
Message-ID: <49F70463.7000200@conversis.de>

On 04/28/2009 02:56 AM, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote:
> Dennis J. wrote:
>> That makes sense for a long lived distribution but not really for
>> fedora. If I really need to be running the latest versions then I'll
>> update to the next version of fedora when it comes out which is always
>> a maximum of 6 months away. I'm certain there are some fixes in the
>> new kernel that some people will appreciate and there is certainly no
>> harm in getting them but actually spending all this time on apparently
>> rather complex problems between these two kernel versions seems
>> strange if the result will be that short-lived.
>
>
> Just out of curiosity, since you aren't the one expending the effort,
> why does it bother you that someone else is?

I couldn't help but wonder if there is something particular going on that 
I've missed. If for example the reason for this effort is that this kernel 
is going to be the baseline for RHEL 6 then that's interesting information 
for me as I can then take a closer look at that version and keep that in 
mind when planning my next deployments.

Also if the reason is that there are a considerable number of difficult 
changes in the new kernel then I might to choose holding updates of other 
packages back when the new kernel gets out so I can pinpoint if any 
problems from that update are a result of the new kernel.

In general I find that if I come across developments that are in some form 
out of the ordinary understanding *why* things happen that way often helps 
me plan better for the future. Not that it really matter all that much in 
this particular case. Like you I was just curious about what's going on.

Regards,
   Dennis



From rjones at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 13:33:46 2009
From: rjones at redhat.com (Richard W.M. Jones)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:33:46 +0100
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F618B8.3030201@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <20090427203319.GC18260@redhat.com>
	<49F618B8.3030201@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090428133346.GA5933@amd.home.annexia.org>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 03:42:32PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
> If you didn't want to fall back to the slow behavior on ext3, you might
> consider only using fallocate() if it's there, rather than
> posix_fallocate().

Does this imply there's a fast way to allocate a non-sparse
zero-filled file on ext3?!?

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat  http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines.  Tiny program with many
powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 28 13:40:10 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:40:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090428 changes
Message-ID: <20090428134010.DE53E1F8203@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Tue Apr 28 06:15:04 UTC 2009

New package backintime
        Simple backup system
New package bareftp
        File transfer client supporting the FTP, FTP over SSL/TLS (FTPS) and SSH
New package camcardsync
        A tool for copying photos from a camera card
New package globus-callout
        Globus Toolkit - Globus Callout Library
New package globus-gsi-openssl-error
        Globus Toolkit - Globus OpenSSL Error Handling
New package globus-gsi-proxy-ssl
        Globus Toolkit - Globus GSI Proxy SSL Library
New package globus-rsl
        Globus Toolkit - Resource Specification Language Library
New package globus-xio
        Globus Toolkit - Globus XIO Framework
New package gpscorrelate
        A GPS photo correlation / geotagging tool
New package gxmessage
        GTK2 based xmessage clone
New package ipa-gothic-fonts
        Japanese Gothic-typeface OpenType font by IPA
New package ipa-mincho-fonts
        Japanese Mincho-typeface OpenType font by IPA
New package ipa-pgothic-fonts
        Japanese Proportional Gothic-typeface OpenType font by IPA
New package ipa-pmincho-fonts
        Japanese Proportional Mincho-typeface OpenType font by IPA
New package jjack
        JACK audio driver for the Java Sound API
New package libgarmin
        C library to parse and use Garmin image files
New package libvmime
        Powerful library for MIME messages and Internet messaging services
New package perl-B-Hooks-OP-Check-StashChange
        Invoke callbacks when the stash code is being compiled in changes
New package perl-Log-LogLite
        Create simple logs
New package perl-RT-Client-REST
        Talk to RT using REST protocol
New package photoprint-borders
        PhotoPrint Borders are the printing frames for use with PhotoPrint
New package php-geshi
        Generic syntax highlighter
New package python-altgraph
        Python graph (network) package
New package python-upoints
        Python modules for working with points on Earth
New package rubygem-ferret
        Full-featured text search engine library
New package sing
        Sends fully customized ICMP packets from command line
New package termit
        Simple terminal emulator based on vte library
Updated Packages:

banshee-1.4.3-3.fc11
--------------------
* Thu Apr 02 2009 David Nielsen <gnomeuser at gmail.com> - 1.4.3-3
- add patch to fix rh#492707 - Banshee use 100% when fetching cover art

* Sat Mar 07 2009 David Nielsen <dnielsen at fedoraproject.org> - 1.4.3-2
- add patch for gnomebz #536047


bind-9.6.1-0.2.b1.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Martin Nagy <mnagy redhat com> 32:9.6.1-0.2.b1
- update the patch for dynamic loading of database backends
- fix dns_db_unregister()
- useradd now takes "-N" instead of "-n" (atkac, #495726)
- print nicer error msg when zone file is actually a directory (atkac, #490837)


cups-1.4-0.b2.15.fc11
---------------------
* Sun Apr 26 2009 Tim Waugh <twaugh at redhat.com> 1:1.4-0.b2.15
- Accept "Host: ::1" (bug #497393).
- Accept Host: fields set to the ServerName value (bug #497301).
- Specify that we want poppler's pdftops (not ghostscript) for the
  pdftops wrapper when calling configure.


fuseiso-20070708-6.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 20070708-6
- add explicit requires on fuse (bz 497681)


gallery2-2.3-7.fc11
-------------------
* Thu Apr 16 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 2.3-7
- Drop all jars and remote, uploadapplet and slideshowapplet modules
- to satisfy legal requirements, as source build would be
- highly laborious and functionality is not critical.
- See BZ464566 for details.

* Mon Apr 13 2009 Jon Ciesla <limb at jcomserv.net> - 2.3-6
- Document jar source origins, build jars in build, not prep.


gcc-4.4.0-3
-----------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 4.4.0-3
- update from gcc-4_4-branch
  - PR bootstrap/39739
  - fix -Wunused-value (#497545, PR c/39889)
- backport further power7-meissner branch changes (#497816)
- fix reg-stack ICE on SPEC2k6 453.povray with -m32 -O3 -msse3
  (PR target/39856)
- fix x86_64 ICE on passing structure with flexible array member
  (PR target/39903)

* Fri Apr 24 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 4.4.0-2
- update from gcc-4_4-branch
  - PR c++/38228
- fix folding of cond expr with comparison to MAX/MIN (PR middle-end/39867)
- fix up gcc-gnat install-info arguments (#452783)


gdm-2.26.1-4.fc11
-----------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 1:2.26.1-4
- Make the greeter a well-behaved session client (#495738)


glibc-2.9.90-22
---------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-22
- update from trunk
  - further localedef fixes
- fix build-locale-archive

* Fri Apr 24 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-20
- update from trunk
  - fix p{read,write}v{,64} (#497429, #497434)
  - fix strfmon (#496386)

* Fri Apr 24 2009 Jakub Jelinek <jakub at redhat.com> 2.9.90-21
- update from trunk
  - fix localedef
  - fix SHIFT_JIS iconv EILSEQ handling (#497267)
  - misc fixes (BZ#10093, BZ#10100)


gnome-media-2.26.0-2.fc11
-------------------------

gupnp-0.12.7-1.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> 0.12.7-1
- New upstream release


kazehakase-0.5.6-11.svn3771_trunk.fc11
--------------------------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.5.6-11.svn3771_trunk
- rev 3771
- Fix crash when downloading is cancalled
- Fix the issue that downloading won't work when file already exists.

* Mon Apr 20 2009 Mamoru Tasaka <mtasaka at ioa.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> - 0.5.6-10.svn3770_trunk
- rev 3770
- spec file cleanup


kchmviewer-4.0-4.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.0-4
- fix conflicts with kdegraphics (#484861)
- optmize scriptlets
- ship only hicolor icons 
- cleanup, use kde4-macros


kde-plasma-weather-1.0.0-6.fc11
-------------------------------
* Sun Apr 26 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> 1.0.0-4
- backport 2 more layout fixes from trunk
- backport patch from trunk to honor preferred browser
- fix configuration issue: PopupApplet is not a city (#495998)

* Sun Apr 26 2009 Kevin Kofler <Kevin at tigcc.ticalc.org> 1.0.0-6
- work around layout issue


kde-settings-4.2-8.20090427svn.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> - 4.2-8.20090427svn
- -kdm: Requires: xterm (#491251), touchup Summary a bit


kdegraphics-4.2.2-5.fc11
------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Rex Dieter <rdieter at fedoraproject.org> 4.2.2-5
- kio_msits subpkg, help avoid kchmviewer conflicts (#484861)

* Wed Apr 22 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-4
- fix build issue on s390(x)


kernel-2.6.29.1-111.fc11
------------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Ben Skeggs <bskeggs at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-108
- nouveau/nv50: don't clobber 0x001700 during instmem init, can confuse ddx

* Fri Apr 24 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-109
- linux-2.6-i2c-fix-bit-algorithm-timeout.patch - fix i2c EDID timeout

* Fri Apr 24 2009 Kyle McMartin <kyle at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-111
- backport hpet fixes from 2.6.30-rc3.

* Thu Apr 23 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-107
- Drop POSIX timer patch accidentally committed in 2.6.30.

* Wed Apr 22 2009 John W. Linville <linville at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-106
- back-port mac80211: fix beacon loss detection after scan

* Tue Apr 21 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-103
- radeon kms: fix lcd edid detection + fix legacy crtc setup

* Tue Apr 21 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-104
- drm-intel-hdmi-edid-fix.patch: Fix EDID fetch on SDVO HDMI.

* Tue Apr 21 2009 Chuck Ebbert <cebbert at redhat.com> 2.6.29.1-105
- Don't include the modules.*.bin files in the RPM package.


mash-0.5.3-1.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> 0.5.3-1
- when copying in old deltas, make sure the signatures match current packages
- don't delta source and debuginfo packages


memtest86+-2.11-9.fc11
----------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> - 2.11-8
- Bug #494157 rename elf binary so it doesn't accidentally copy the elf binary
  during livecd-creator
- Put scripts into CVS

* Fri Apr 24 2009 Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> - 2.11-9
- Fix uninstall to remove stanza from grub.conf


mkinitrd-6.0.83-1.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Jeremy Katz <katzj at redhat.com> - 6.0.83-1
- Fix up syntax error in udev rules for live image (#497762)


ogmtools-1.5-6.fc10
-------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Gianluca Sforna <giallu gmail com> - 1.5-6
- honour RPM_OPT_FLAGS
- use --disable-dependency-tracking


python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10
----------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 David Carter <dcarter at davidcarter.ca> 1.1-4
- Add missing runtime dependency

* Fri Apr 24 2009 David Carter <dcarter at davidcarter.ca> 1.1-5
- Add missing runtime dependency


tigervnc-0.0.90-0.6.20090427svn3789.fc11
----------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Adam Tkac <atkac redhat com> 0.0.90-0.6.20090427svn3789
- update to r3789
  - tigervnc-rh494801.patch merged
- tigervnc-newfbsize.patch is no longer needed
- fix problems when vncviewer and Xvnc run on different endianess (#496653)
- UltraVNC and TightVNC clients work fine again (#496786)


upstart-0.3.9-24.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> - 0.3.9-24
- Apply the audit patch correctly (#470661)


xorg-x11-drv-ati-6.12.2-7.fc11
------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Dave Airlie <airlied at redhat.com> 6.12.2-7
- revert rs690 fixes for now until we can research properly
- fix xv warning


xorg-x11-drv-mga-1.4.10-1.fc11
------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> 1.4.10-1
- mga 1.4.10


Summary:
Added Packages: 27
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 25
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libexiv2.so.4
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.i386 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libexiv2.so.4()(64bit)
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.x86_64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.ppc requires libexiv2.so.4
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libexiv2.so.4()(64bit)
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)





From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 13:42:21 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:42:21 +0200
Subject: development packages and multilib
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>
	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240522347.16854.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gsqukv$orq$1@ger.gmane.org> <gt0tqo$9gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<20090427084729.GA5117@redhat.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0904271205270.7805@gate.bb.dicp.net>
Message-ID: <gt713t$c7m$1@ger.gmane.org>

Andreas Thienemann wrote:
> They ended up using qemu in user mode emulation to have a "native"
> system.
> 
> Maybe that's a solution for your bios file needs as well?

Not really, it'd also need all the target packages in the Koji buildroot,
which is not going to happen. Especially for targets like sparc which
aren't even primary platforms (but can still be emulated on the primary
platforms, so QEMU needs some SPARC binaries).

        Kevin Kofler



From berrange at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 13:43:05 2009
From: berrange at redhat.com (Daniel P. Berrange)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:43:05 +0100
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <20090428133346.GA5933@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <20090427203319.GC18260@redhat.com>
	<49F618B8.3030201@redhat.com>
	<20090428133346.GA5933@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <20090428134305.GB10594@redhat.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 02:33:46PM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 03:42:32PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
> > If you didn't want to fall back to the slow behavior on ext3, you might
> > consider only using fallocate() if it's there, rather than
> > posix_fallocate().
> 
> Does this imply there's a fast way to allocate a non-sparse
> zero-filled file on ext3?!?

No, it means that if you call fallocate() on ext2/3 it'll return ENOSYS
error code instead of falling back to writing zeros like posix_fallocate() 
does.

Daniel
-- 
|: Red Hat, Engineering, London   -o-   http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :|
|: http://libvirt.org  -o-  http://virt-manager.org  -o-  http://ovirt.org :|
|: http://autobuild.org       -o-         http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
|: GnuPG: 7D3B9505  -o-  F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505 :|



From sandeen at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 13:46:06 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:46:06 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <20090428133346.GA5933@amd.home.annexia.org>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
	<20090427203319.GC18260@redhat.com>	<49F618B8.3030201@redhat.com>
	<20090428133346.GA5933@amd.home.annexia.org>
Message-ID: <49F7089E.8090107@redhat.com>

Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 03:42:32PM -0500, Eric Sandeen wrote:
>> If you didn't want to fall back to the slow behavior on ext3, you might
>> consider only using fallocate() if it's there, rather than
>> posix_fallocate().
> 
> Does this imply there's a fast way to allocate a non-sparse
> zero-filled file on ext3?!?

No, there is not... ext3 has no mechanism to track the "uninitialized"
metadata about the block range.

What I meant was (sorry, I seem to be having trouble being clear) is
that if you don't want the slow behavior on ext3, you can use
fallocate(), which will simply -fail- on ext3, and you get no
preallocation at all in that case.  For some applications, "fast
prealloc if I can do it, no prealloc if I can't do it fast" may be ok.

-Eric

> Rich.
> 



From roth at ursus.net  Tue Apr 28 05:56:37 2009
From: roth at ursus.net (Carl D. Roth)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 05:56:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rpm-4.6 and brp-python-bytecompile?
Message-ID: <gt65qk$fvm$1@ger.gmane.org>

I noticed this wierdness with rpm-4.6 (f10) and rpm-4.7 (f11)...  When I 
build packages including Python scripts, sometimes the .pyc and .pyo 
files are included in the package manifest, and sometimes, they are not.

The script that does the .pyc and .pyo generation is 'brp-python-
bytecompile', part of the '%__os_install_post' macro.  Here are the 
various (inconsistent) results I get on different systems:

F9:

$ rpm --eval '%__os_install_post'

    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-compress
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip /usr/bin/strip
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip-static-archive /usr/bin/strip
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip-comment-note /usr/bin/strip /usr/bin/
objdump
    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-python-bytecompile
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-python-hardlink
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-java-repack-jars

F10 (x86_64):

$ rpm --eval '%__os_install_post'

    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-compress 
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip /usr/bin/strip 
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip-static-archive /usr/bin/strip 
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip-comment-note /usr/bin/strip /usr/bin/
objdump 
    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-python-bytecompile 
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-python-hardlink 
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-java-repack-jars 

F10 (i386):

    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-compress
    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-strip
    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-strip-static-archive
    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-strip-comment-note

F10 (i386) -- in an i386 mock chroot:

    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-compress
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip /usr/bin/strip
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip-static-archive /usr/bin/strip
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip-comment-note /usr/bin/strip /usr/bin/
objdump
    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-python-bytecompile
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-python-hardlink
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-java-repack-jars

F11 (i386):

    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-compress
    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-strip
    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-strip-static-archive
    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-strip-comment-note

F11 (i386) -- in an i386 mock chroot

    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-compress
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip /usr/bin/strip
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip-static-archive /usr/bin/strip
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-strip-comment-note /usr/bin/strip /usr/bin/
objdump
    /usr/lib/rpm/brp-python-bytecompile
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-python-hardlink
    /usr/lib/rpm/redhat/brp-java-repack-jars

Why does the %__os_install_post macro vary in these examples?  It's a 
little frustrating, since a spec file that works outside of a mock chroot 
may not work inside, and vice-versa.

C



From sandeen at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 13:55:29 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:55:29 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F6F590.6050506@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6F590.6050506@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F70AD1.7040803@redhat.com>

Florian Festi wrote:
> Eric Sandeen wrote:
>>   - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
> 
> The rpmdb is a bunch of db4 files. In don't think I want to interfere with 
> the db4 engine...

They're often badly fragmented, too :)  But whether or not that matters
much for rpm performance, I dunno.

[root at host ~]# filefrag /var/lib/rpm/Packages
/var/lib/rpm/Packages: 844 extents found, perfection would be 1 extent
[root at host ~]# ls -lh /var/lib/rpm/Packages
-rw-r--r-- 1 rpm rpm 52M Apr 27 15:40 /var/lib/rpm/Packages
[root at host ~]# du -h /var/lib/rpm/Packages
52M	/var/lib/rpm/Packages


> I am not really sure whether preallocation offers that much benefit for file 
> installation. May be if there is a parallel process also writing to the disk 
> heavily - but such processes should probably have their own partition/disk. 
> Would preallocation make sense for tar?
> 
> Let's ask the other way round: What are the costs of preallocation for - say 
> 2M files with 50GB overall content?
> 
> Florian

I wouldn't use it for every file; it may not even make sense for this
application, I was just throwing things out :)  A reasonable test might
be to do a fresh install (maybe a mock chroot install?) and go look to
see if things are fragmented afterwards, and if it's bad enough to
warrant a change.  Thinking more about it, it's probably not needed,
most of these files are small and with delayed allocation, layout should
be fine.

I don't want to spur a new generation of perfect-allocation fetishists,
but in places where poor allocation may impact performance (or adversely
affect later allocations by badly fragmenting freespace) it's worth
considering the tool.

-Eric



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 14:02:40 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:02:40 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F202BC.5090206@cchtml.com> <gt19q4$u7m$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<200904271327.38330.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt72a0$c7m$2@ger.gmane.org>

Bill Crawford wrote:
> s/KDE/KDE3.5/ ;o)

No. KDE 3.5 is obsolete, no longer gets any upstream releases and is no
longer supported in Fedora. 4.2 is the way to go.

        Kevin Kofler



From ndbecker2 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 14:02:52 2009
From: ndbecker2 at gmail.com (Neal Becker)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:02:52 -0400
Subject: More mock problems
References: <gt6so7$sk1$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <gt72ac$hr7$1@ger.gmane.org>

  mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --shell
INFO: mock.py version 0.9.14 starting...
State Changed: init plugins
State Changed: start
State Changed: lock buildroot
mock-chroot> rpm -q igraph
rpmdb: Program version 4.7 doesn't match environment version 4.5
error: db4 error(-30971) from dbenv->open: DB_VERSION_MISMATCH: Database 
environment version mismatch
error: cannot open Packages index using db3 -  (-30971)
error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm
rpmdb: Program version 4.7 doesn't match environment version 4.5
error: db4 error(-30971) from dbenv->open: DB_VERSION_MISMATCH: Database 
environment version mismatch
error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm
package igraph is not installed





From johannbg at hi.is  Tue Apr 28 14:16:17 2009
From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:16:17 +0000
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>

Naheem Zaffar wrote:
> 2009/4/27 Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com <mailto:pemboa at gmail.com>>
>
>     On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Naheem Zaffar
>     <naheemzaffar at gmail.com <mailto:naheemzaffar at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     > When Fedora has defaults, to me it means that someone has put
>     some thought
>     > into this, into making it all coherent. And that is a good
>     thing. If I
>     > disagree with any default, I can then try to work around it, but
>     that would
>     > only be a 1% change decision in most cases instead of forcing
>     the end user
>     > to choose 100% of the components.
>
>
>     What's the criteria being used to decide the default desktop?
>
>
> The people who work on it, develop it choosing choosing the defaults 
> as so. If I did not trust them on their decisions, I would not be 
> using their products (as much?).
>
> (Trust as opposed to agree as I can disagree and change the 
> settings/programs.)
>
For the record this thread is not about how they came to decide using Gnome
as the default desktop environment back in the day.

Nor is it about replacing the current default desktop with another one.

It?s about dropping the Default Desktop concept altogether which will 
allow all the
desktop environments to compete on a fair ground amongst them self's in 
the form
of their corresponding live release thus improving innovation and 
further development in that area.

This would aid Fedora in becoming the ideal development platform for 
both existing and emerging projects
instead of hindrance where one application is chosen over the other one.

Let the end user choose what he wants from all the bits we offer instead 
of saying "USE THESE BITS"

So the question is this...

Should we or should we not drop the Default Desktop concept?

If we decided we will abandon default desktop concept only then we can 
start talking about what
are the necessary steps to complete that task.

JGB
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From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Tue Apr 28 14:42:11 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:42:11 -0500
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
In-Reply-To: <49F70463.7000200@conversis.de>
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>
	<49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904272134480.13243@vega1.dur.ac.uk>
	<49F649DA.1060908@conversis.de> <49F6544E.5060906@gnat.ca>
	<49F70463.7000200@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <20090428144211.GA1477246@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Dennis J. <dennisml at conversis.de> said:
> In general I find that if I come across developments that are in some form 
> out of the ordinary understanding *why* things happen that way often helps 
> me plan better for the future. Not that it really matter all that much in 
> this particular case. Like you I was just curious about what's going on.

IIRC, the Fedora kernel team tries to keep all the current releases on a
similar kernel version, at least for a while.  At this point, not much
energy will go into F9, since it will stop getting updates before long,
but F10 still has over half its life left, so updating it makes sense.
If they can keep F10 and F11 along similar lines, it cuts down their
work at tracking bugs and such (supporting one kernel version is enough
work; supporting two or three is a recipie for burnout).

The kernel of course has widespread impact, but as far as dependencies
go, it is relatively self-contained.  New features may only be enabled
in newer Fedora to keep from impacting existing releases (i.e. some new
feature in 2.6.29 may only be enabled on F11 and not F10).
-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com  Tue Apr 28 15:00:51 2009
From: julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com (Julian Aloofi)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:00:51 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <gt4si5$t27$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gt4si5$t27$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240930851.3360.66.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Montag, den 27.04.2009, 14:12 -0400 schrieb Ben Boeckel:
> Julian Aloofi wrote:
> 
> > Of course KDE (and everything else) is good too, but at 
> > the moment it's
> > (in my opinion, KDE 4.2 brought great improvements but 
> > it still crashes
> > from time to time) not stable enough (that will 
> > change).
> 
> Bug numbers please?
Don't get me wrong, I like KDE but sometimes Plasma just crashes when I
press the Kickoff button or stuff like this. I can't reproduce that, and
so I just call it not stable enough. By the way, the discussion is not
about using KDE as default destop, so this is not a point we have to
talk about at this point of the discussion.

_______________________________________________________________________

As far as I see we have the following choices:

1.)Don't change anything. GNOME is the default desktop.

2.)Put all possible desktops on the DVD, but we choose a default live CD
that is also used as default installation media.

3.)Create a bloated LiveDVD that contains all desktops and use it as
default installation media.

4.)We use the DVD as default installation media, put all desktops on it,
use it as default installation media and teach the users about the
different desktops in an info window before they choose their desktop.
For users who don't have a DVD drive or want to test Fedora we can still
offer an info page on fedoraproject.org and link to the live CD's.

5.)desktop = rand()

Option 2 is pretty nice. We had the default installation media with a
default desktop and that's what the normal user, who doesn't care about
choices and just uses the default programs and so on, would use.
And everyone who knows about the diffent DE'S could use the DVD or a
non-default live CD. The only thing we had to care about then is, that
we have to fit as many desktops as possible on the DVD. At the moment we
only have GNOME and KDE on the DVD, so we had to add LXDE(3.2 MB),
XFCE(16.4 MB) and various others (e17, fluxbox, TWM etc.) who will,
summed up, not be about more than 35 MB's (just a guess, based on the
package sizes that packagekit tells me).
Then we had a default desktop for all new users, but would treat all
desktops equally on the DVD.



If we'd use option 3 I could think of a GRUB based menu like 
Welcome to Fedora:
Boot Fedora with GNOME
Boot Fedora with KDE
Boot Fedora with XFCE
Boot Fedora with LXDE
Boot Fedora with Enlightenment 17
etc...
Install Fedora (that would allow users to choose their desktop while
they install)

That would also be acceptable, but the users wouldn't know what the
different desktops are when they enter GRUB (I don't know how hard it
would be to realize that outside of GRUB, or to realize that at all).



Option 4 (the option I prefer) is also pretty nice, because it informs
users about the DE's before they install. We can give them all
information they need and we wouldn't have a default desktop anymore, so
everyone is happy. A disadvantage may be the lost "consolidation of
efforts", but maybe that is the price we have to pay for being
politically correct.



Option 5 would be funny, and maybe I even prefer it over option 4, but I
think we could lose some users, and some people could make jokes about
us. But we would be a legend and even in 10+ years people would
say:"They did it the Fedora way" if they talked about random decisions
or decisions they can't understand.

In the end we have to notice that Fedora is a project, which involves
many people with different interests, and saying "We really like your
work, KDE people, but GNOME is just better, we'll use it as our default
desktop" (nobody said that, but maybe that's how some people feel) is
not fair, and if only one person of the KDE/XFCE/LXDE/etc guys says that
they want to be threatened equally it's something we definetly have to
think about.

By the way, just out of curiosity, I wonder how "the Red Hat guys" think
about that, and if they would like to see the Fedora project taking a
certain direction, as RedHat seemed to be more GNOME-focused as far as I
know and remember. (for example this doesn't contain any KDE/Qt related
apps:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Red_Hat_contributions#Desktop_Software)
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From giallu at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 15:03:34 2009
From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:03:34 +0200
Subject: More mock problems
In-Reply-To: <gt72ac$hr7$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gt6so7$sk1$1@ger.gmane.org> <gt72ac$hr7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <d5ad21470904280803v721a10a0ia6c78197b1c9a96a@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Neal Becker <ndbecker2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ?mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --shell
> INFO: mock.py version 0.9.14 starting...
> State Changed: init plugins
> State Changed: start
> State Changed: lock buildroot
> mock-chroot> rpm -q igraph
> rpmdb: Program version 4.7 doesn't match environment version 4.5
> error: db4 error(-30971) from dbenv->open: DB_VERSION_MISMATCH: Database
> environment version mismatch
> error: cannot open Packages index using db3 - ?(-30971)
> error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm> rpmdb: Program version 4.7 doesn't match environment version 4.5

the buildroot is populated from the outside, using the "host" yum and
rpm. For that to work I think you need to upgrade the host's rpm to
(not sure if 4.6 is enough, probably yes)

-- 
Gianluca Sforna

http://morefedora.blogspot.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna



From cdahlin at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 15:13:34 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:13:34 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>	<1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
Message-ID: <49F71D1E.30206@redhat.com>

J?hann B. Gu?mundsson wrote:
> So the question is this...
> 
> Should we or should we not drop the Default Desktop concept?
> 
> If we decided we will abandon default desktop concept only then we can
> start talking about what
> are the necessary steps to complete that task.
> 
> JGB
> 

I think dropping the default desktop is the wrong way to accomplish what you want.

The /right/ way is to make the KDE spin a first-class product, released at the same time as the "main" release and given equal billing on the website. We still present an equal choice, but the experience doesn't have to be sloppy.

Jesse doesn't want any extra work I'm sure, though, so someone from the KDE SIG will have to step up to make this happen (and from XFCE/LXDE/et al. if they too want top billing).

--CJD



From mike at cchtml.com  Tue Apr 28 15:28:56 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:28:56 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F70AD1.7040803@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6F590.6050506@redhat.com>
	<49F70AD1.7040803@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F720B8.9010905@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/28/2009 08:55 AM

> Florian Festi wrote:
>> Eric Sandeen wrote:
>>>   - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
>> The rpmdb is a bunch of db4 files. In don't think I want to interfere with 
>> the db4 engine...
> 
> They're often badly fragmented, too :)  But whether or not that matters
> much for rpm performance, I dunno.
> 
> [root at host ~]# filefrag /var/lib/rpm/Packages
> /var/lib/rpm/Packages: 844 extents found, perfection would be 1 extent
> [root at host ~]# ls -lh /var/lib/rpm/Packages
> -rw-r--r-- 1 rpm rpm 52M Apr 27 15:40 /var/lib/rpm/Packages


Somehow XFS is doing a much better job. This is from a four year old system:

$ sudo filefrag /var/lib/rpm/Packages
/var/lib/rpm/Packages: 2 extents found
$ ls -lh /var/lib/rpm/Packages
-rw-r--r-- 1 rpm rpm 88M 2009-04-28 10:18 /var/lib/rpm/Packages




From Jochen at herr-schmitt.de  Tue Apr 28 15:33:18 2009
From: Jochen at herr-schmitt.de (Jochen Schmitt)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:33:18 +0200
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F609C4.6010408@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6091F.1070901@herr-schmitt.de>
	<49F609C4.6010408@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <0ML2xA-1LypJB2BDz-00060O@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:38:44 -0500, you wrote:

>See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486284
>[PATCH] RFE: ext4 support in grub
>
>Unfortunately this didn't make the cut for F11, but we'll get proper
>ext4 support into our grub (v1) soon, I think.

I have pocked this topic, because there are people who put all
there stuff into one partitionen. This people may live in the
danger to running into trouble, if they except the new default
filesystem.

Best Regards:

Jochen Schmitt




From sandeen at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 15:36:13 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:36:13 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F720B8.9010905@cchtml.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
	<49F6F590.6050506@redhat.com>	<49F70AD1.7040803@redhat.com>
	<49F720B8.9010905@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <49F7226D.6060101@redhat.com>

Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
> From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Date: 04/28/2009 08:55 AM
> 
>> Florian Festi wrote:
>>> Eric Sandeen wrote:
>>>>   - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
>>> The rpmdb is a bunch of db4 files. In don't think I want to interfere with 
>>> the db4 engine...
>> They're often badly fragmented, too :)  But whether or not that matters
>> much for rpm performance, I dunno.
>>
>> [root at host ~]# filefrag /var/lib/rpm/Packages
>> /var/lib/rpm/Packages: 844 extents found, perfection would be 1 extent
>> [root at host ~]# ls -lh /var/lib/rpm/Packages
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 rpm rpm 52M Apr 27 15:40 /var/lib/rpm/Packages
> 
> 
> Somehow XFS is doing a much better job. This is from a four year old system:
> 
> $ sudo filefrag /var/lib/rpm/Packages
> /var/lib/rpm/Packages: 2 extents found
> $ ls -lh /var/lib/rpm/Packages
> -rw-r--r-- 1 rpm rpm 88M 2009-04-28 10:18 /var/lib/rpm/Packages

on my xfs root systems I still have hundreds of extents for this file.
Do you have xfs_fsr in a cron job?

-Eric



From katzj at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 15:36:20 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:36:20 -0400
Subject: rpm-4.6 and brp-python-bytecompile?
In-Reply-To: <gt65qk$fvm$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gt65qk$fvm$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090428153619.GB54853@redhat.com>

On Tuesday, April 28 2009, Carl D. Roth said:
> I noticed this wierdness with rpm-4.6 (f10) and rpm-4.7 (f11)...  When I 
> build packages including Python scripts, sometimes the .pyc and .pyo 
> files are included in the package manifest, and sometimes, they are not.
[snip] 
> Why does the %__os_install_post macro vary in these examples?  It's a 
> little frustrating, since a spec file that works outside of a mock chroot 
> may not work inside, and vice-versa.

Make sure you always have redhat-rpm-config installed

Jeremy



From sandeen at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 15:37:59 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:37:59 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <0ML2xA-1LypJB2BDz-00060O@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
	<49F6091F.1070901@herr-schmitt.de>	<49F609C4.6010408@redhat.com>
	<0ML2xA-1LypJB2BDz-00060O@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
Message-ID: <49F722D7.6000402@redhat.com>

Jochen Schmitt wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:38:44 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486284
>> [PATCH] RFE: ext4 support in grub
>>
>> Unfortunately this didn't make the cut for F11, but we'll get proper
>> ext4 support into our grub (v1) soon, I think.
> 
> I have pocked this topic, because there are people who put all
> there stuff into one partitionen. This people may live in the
> danger to running into trouble, if they except the new default
> filesystem.

Well, anaconda won't let you do it ...

-Eric



From katzj at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 15:38:42 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:38:42 -0400
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <0ML2xA-1LypJB2BDz-00060O@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6091F.1070901@herr-schmitt.de>
	<49F609C4.6010408@redhat.com>
	<0ML2xA-1LypJB2BDz-00060O@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
Message-ID: <20090428153842.GC54853@redhat.com>

On Tuesday, April 28 2009, Jochen Schmitt said:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:38:44 -0500, you wrote:
> >See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486284
> >[PATCH] RFE: ext4 support in grub
> >
> >Unfortunately this didn't make the cut for F11, but we'll get proper
> >ext4 support into our grub (v1) soon, I think.
> 
> I have pocked this topic, because there are people who put all
> there stuff into one partitionen. This people may live in the
> danger to running into trouble, if they except the new default
> filesystem.

Anaconda won't let you have an ext4 / without a separate /boot so people
shouldn't end up getting into trouble

Jeremy



From mike at cchtml.com  Tue Apr 28 15:42:17 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:42:17 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F7226D.6060101@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>	<49F6F590.6050506@redhat.com>	<49F70AD1.7040803@redhat.com>	<49F720B8.9010905@cchtml.com>
	<49F7226D.6060101@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F723D9.9080907@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/28/2009 10:36 AM

> 
> on my xfs root systems I still have hundreds of extents for this file.
> Do you have xfs_fsr in a cron job?
> 
> -Eric
> 

I do not have xfs_fsr in a cron job, however, I did run it for the first 
time ever on this system several months ago. Before I ran xfs_fsr I did 
an xfs_db -r /mnt/point[1] and ran "frag" and it reported less than 1% 
fragmentation. Something like 0.3%. I guess that could influence my 
fragmentation report, but I have been keeping up to date on F10 and it's 
run at least 50 package updates since then - plus I'm 
installing/uninstalling custom packages while I type this e-mail.

[1]
$ df -h
Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/sda5             105G   62G   43G  60% /



From naheemzaffar at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 15:48:45 2009
From: naheemzaffar at gmail.com (Naheem Zaffar)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:48:45 +0100
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
Message-ID: <3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/28 "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" <johannbg at hi.is>

>  For the record this thread is not about how they came to decide using
> Gnome
> as the default desktop environment back in the day.
>
> Nor is it about replacing the current default desktop with another one.
>
> It?s about dropping the Default Desktop concept altogether which will allow
> all the
> desktop environments to compete on a fair ground amongst them self's in the
> form
> of their corresponding live release thus improving innovation and further
> development in that area.
>
> This would aid Fedora in becoming the ideal development platform for both
> existing and emerging projects
> instead of hindrance where one application is chosen over the other one.
>
> Let the end user choose what he wants from all the bits we offer instead of
> saying "USE THESE BITS"
>
> So the question is this...
>
> Should we or should we not drop the Default Desktop concept?
>
> If we decided we will abandon default desktop concept only then we can
> start talking about what
> are the necessary steps to complete that task.
>
> JGB
>

I disagree that dropping a default desktop will be favourable in any way -
the whole point behind a distro is that it is coherent and *makes decisions*
about defaults and settings etc.

Not having a default is the same as it was a few years ago when multiple
distros and multiple packages for the same task were all installed, allowing
a person to make a "fair choice". What that really did was confuse new
users.

I like how far Fedora has come in this regard. (The one package by default
concept was pushed forward by Ubuntu and it was found to be so successful
that most distros are doing something similar.)

Forcing a choice at install time to uninformed users is plain bad usability.
Allowing those that are informed to change the defaults is the right way.

ftr, no one is saying "USE THESE BITS" as there are multiple spins, multiple
tick boxes etc and people know that they all allude to choice. which if they
knew better they may be able to partake in. But that should not be forced
onto them. Neither should experimentation - if people are using fedora in
production and the defaults work for them, why should they potentially mess
up their workflow to find something that may not work as well?
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From fedora at camperquake.de  Tue Apr 28 15:49:08 2009
From: fedora at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:49:08 +0200
Subject: monitor goes black too soon
In-Reply-To: <1240917519.2274.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240913741.12436.3.camel@scrappy.miketc.net>
	<20090428124724.6da9d14b@dhcp03.addix.net>
	<1240917519.2274.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090428174908.5537c1a6@dhcp03.addix.net>

Hi.

On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:18:39 +0200, Tomasz Sa?aci?ski wrote:

> I had the same problem, but right now I see that if screensaver is set
> to "Never" it will blank after one minute. If I set it to 2 hours, the
> problem is gone.

If you mean the 'blank display' settings under power management, then I can
confirm that switching from 'never' to an actual time span fixes this.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=498041



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 28 15:54:36 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:24:36 +0530
Subject: Ext4 FAQ
Message-ID: <49F726BC.7050508@fedoraproject.org>

Hi

I have put up a FAQ at

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ext4_in_Fedora_11

I will be expanding this over time. If you have other unanswered
questions, do let me know.

Rahul



From johannbg at hi.is  Tue Apr 28 16:04:10 2009
From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:04:10 +0000
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F71D1E.30206@redhat.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>	<1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<49F71D1E.30206@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F728FA.3040604@hi.is>

Casey Dahlin wrote:
> J?hann B. Gu?mundsson wrote:
>   
>> So the question is this...
>>
>> Should we or should we not drop the Default Desktop concept?
>>
>> If we decided we will abandon default desktop concept only then we can
>> start talking about what
>> are the necessary steps to complete that task.
>>
>> JGB
>>
>>     
>
> I think dropping the default desktop is the wrong way to accomplish what you want. 
>   
Hum what do you think I want?

Just curious if i'm not clear enough you know to prevent 
misunderstanding on what I want..

JBG
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From mike at cchtml.com  Tue Apr 28 16:10:19 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:10:19 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F7226D.6060101@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>	<49F6F590.6050506@redhat.com>	<49F70AD1.7040803@redhat.com>	<49F720B8.9010905@cchtml.com>
	<49F7226D.6060101@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F72A6B.8060602@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/28/2009 10:36 AM

> 
> on my xfs root systems I still have hundreds of extents for this file.
> Do you have xfs_fsr in a cron job?
> 
> -Eric
> 

Here's a more accurate test. This is from another multi-year old system, 
but this time xfs_fsr has never been run. It's currently on F9. 
Originally F7 IIRC.

$ sudo filefrag /var/lib/rpm/Packages
/var/lib/rpm/Packages: 325 extents found
$ ll -h /var/lib/rpm/Packages
-rw-r--r-- 1 rpm rpm 37M 2009-04-13 00:21 /var/lib/rpm/Packages
$ df -h
Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00
                       297G   79G  219G  27% /



From johannbg at hi.is  Tue Apr 28 16:20:58 2009
From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:20:58 +0000
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F72CEA.8030103@hi.is>

Naheem Zaffar wrote:

<snip>
...
</snip>
> I disagree that dropping a default desktop will be favourable in any 
> way - the whole point behind a distro is that it is coherent and 
> *makes decisions* about defaults and settings etc.
>
AFAIK the policy is to be as close to upstream as possible so Fedora 
fiddles as little with defaults and settings as possible..

We are not dropping anything other than "Default" the default would be 
renamed Gnome.. .
> Not having a default is the same as it was a few years ago when 
> multiple distros and multiple packages for the same task were all 
> installed, allowing a person to make a "fair choice". What that really 
> did was confuse new users.
User would just get the Gnome live disk or hash Gnome desktop enviroment 
in Anaconda same as KDE user have had to do for a long time

XFCE,LXDE along with the fifth one dont even get to be listed with the 
Gnome and KDE under Desktop Enviroments in Anaconda 
those user need to go trough all the trouble to cherry pick those 
packages by them selfs..
>
> I like how far Fedora has come in this regard. (The one package by 
> default concept was pushed forward by Ubuntu and it was found to be so 
> successful that most distros are doing something similar.)
>

Could you please elaborate how "The one package by default" concept was 
pushed forward by Ubuntu?

> Forcing a choice at install time to uninformed users is plain bad 
> usability. Allowing those that are informed to change the defaults is 
> the right way.
>
Checking one check box on the dvd is not that bad usability...

JBG
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From bruno at wolff.to  Tue Apr 28 16:37:07 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:37:07 -0500
Subject: when does the f11 preview go live?
In-Reply-To: <ce81319e0904280506p6e0a21b7ke09b10ac552362c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ce81319e0904280506p6e0a21b7ke09b10ac552362c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090428163707.GB21310@wolff.to>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 13:06:39 +0100,
  jon doe <johnsmithdoe14 at googlemail.com> wrote:
> hey guys what tme does the f11 preview go live?

Typically at 10am Eastern US time. (Currently that's GMT-4.)
I saw the torrent files appear right around that time this morning.

As the live games dvd person I'll be trying to keep those images seeded
for at least a couple of days (and maybe a couple of weeks) at good rates.



From naheemzaffar at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 16:42:49 2009
From: naheemzaffar at gmail.com (Naheem Zaffar)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:42:49 +0100
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F72CEA.8030103@hi.is>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F72CEA.8030103@hi.is>
Message-ID: <3adc77210904280942w53c2f381nd39d8a66565972b5@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/28 "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" <johannbg at hi.is>

> Could you please elaborate how "The one package by default" concept was
> pushed forward by Ubuntu?


Yes.

When I first started using Feodra, there were many packages and alternatives
installed.

Then ubuntu came along and since it was a one cd distribution, it went for
"best of breed applications" - not sure if it accomplished that, but since
then other distributions were "forced" to make decisions. Fedora including.

And that was a good thing, the first time I installed a non windows
operating system, I did not need to fight over multiple different browsers,
text editors, terminals etc. I did not even know what a desktop environment
was!

Choice is only good if you are informed enough to exercise it.
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 16:51:27 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:51:27 +0200
Subject: 2.6.29 kernel for f10
References: <49F51B32.2070505@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271108260.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F5C538.9060101@conversis.de>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0904271706360.8844@algedi.dur.ac.uk>	<49F60C19.1010901@conversis.de>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904272134480.13243@vega1.dur.ac.uk>
	<49F649DA.1060908@conversis.de>
Message-ID: <gt7c6g$ouh$1@ger.gmane.org>

Dennis J. wrote:
> That makes sense for a long lived distribution but not really for fedora.
> If I really need to be running the latest versions then I'll update to the
> next version of fedora when it comes out which is always a maximum of 6
> months away. I'm certain there are some fixes in the new kernel that some
> people will appreciate and there is certainly no harm in getting them but
> actually spending all this time on apparently rather complex problems
> between these two kernel versions seems strange if the result will be that
> short-lived.

Fedora has always updated the kernel to upstream releases regularly. They
just decided to skip 2.6.28, which may be why you got out of the habit.

IMHO updating to new upstream releases is the right thing to do. New kernels
tend to fix lots of bugs. And FWIW, we're also handling KDE in a similar
way. IMHO more packages should get version upgrades. Sure, application
changes which remove features, library soname bumps which require
rebuilding half of the distro and stuff like that needs to go into the next
Fedora only, but new releases which don't introduce breakage, don't remove
features, fix many bugs and add new features definitely should get pushed.
In the case of the kernel, it's sometimes a bit of a tradeoff between a few
regressions which affect a few people and many bugfixes which affect many
more. The decision of pushing out a new kernel to stable is all about
finding the right point at which to push it, minimizing regressions while
at the same time not making people wait forever for their much needed
fixes.

        Kevin Kofler



From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Tue Apr 28 17:03:55 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:03:55 -0500
Subject: development packages and multilib
In-Reply-To: <gt0tqo$9gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <200904192309.49195.bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>	<e76492710904191543l51d7f298v819e14891e47e962@mail.gmail.com>	<20090420082243.GB20786@amd.home.annexia.org>	<1240251839.2861.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240252143.14092.191.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240252803.2861.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<gsqkpn$rbq$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1240522347.16854.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<gsqukv$orq$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<gt0tqo$9gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <gt7ctr$qkj$1@ger.gmane.org>

Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>> Our requirements are that one build environment produces one package
>> containing both 32- and 64-bit binaries.
> 
> If you're talking about RPM packages, [snip]

Nope. Custom installer. Has to work on lots of platforms without rpm 
(including, in theory, non-rpm GNU/Linux, but also Solaris, HP-UX, etc.).

-- 
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
-- 
What sort of trite mind
Didst produce this signature
 From random input



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 17:15:55 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:15:55 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904271029v7342d599p10fe53dd8e240115@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt7dkb$ouh$3@ger.gmane.org>

Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> Add a randomize button... and I'm completely serious about that.

I think that would be a really bad idea. Even a bad default is better than a
random default!

        Kevin Kofler



From julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com  Tue Apr 28 17:18:34 2009
From: julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com (Julian Aloofi)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:18:34 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <gt7dkb$ouh$3@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904271029v7342d599p10fe53dd8e240115@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt7dkb$ouh$3@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240939114.7895.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Dienstag, den 28.04.2009, 19:15 +0200 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
> Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> > Add a randomize button... and I'm completely serious about that.
> 
> I think that would be a really bad idea. Even a bad default is better than a
> random default!
> 
>         Kevin Kofler
> 

At this point I want to mention my option 5.) again ;)
Don't forget, we will get famous!

No seriously, that's the worst thing we can do, because the user knows
that he made a choice, but he never knew, what he chose.
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 17:18:42 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:18:42 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gt7dpi$ouh$4@ger.gmane.org>

Julian Aloofi wrote:
> for example kpackagekit and gnome-packagekit at the same time

FYI, that bug is fixed in F11, they now both only start up in the respective
desktops, so you can't get them both running at once even if you install
them both at once.

We can't really fix this for existing releases without breaking updates for
some users (who are still using gnome-packagekit in KDE for whatever
reason ? remember that F9 didn't ship with kpackagekit because it wasn't
available to be shipped at the time).

        Kevin Kofler



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Tue Apr 28 13:54:55 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:54:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fedora 11 Preview Release announcement
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904280940240.9793@localhost.localdomain>


Memorandum of Intent to Release a Distribution of Understanding

Things this email is about:
   - Fedora 11 Preview release
   - Where to get it
   - How to test it
   - Where to report problems

Things this email is not about:
   - If there are too many sliders on a volume control
   - If there are not enough sliders on a volume control
   - Grumpiness

Agenda Items:
   - Release Fedora 11 Preview Announcement
   - Tell everyone how to obtain the Preview Release
   - Tell everyone how to file bug reports

Hidden Agenda:
   - Joy
   - Peace
   - Occasional fun-loving snarkiness

Body:
This is the Fedora 11 Preview release, we're just a short time from 
releasing the full shebang. Therefore we need the most testing we can 
possibly get on this one. On the torrent sites you'll find live images for 
testing:

http://torrent.fedoraproject.org and http://spins.fedoraproject.org

Everyone has been focused on fixing and closing their remaining bugs since 
the Fedora 11 Beta Release. Please use Bugzilla
( http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_file_a_bug_report ) to report any 
problems you find (after making sure that somebody else hasn't already 
reported the issues). The Preview release notes which can be found at
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f11preview/  will help you
with any other details.

Thanks and happy testing!

-sv


_______________________________________________
Fedora-devel-announce mailing list
Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce



From peter at thecodergeek.com  Tue Apr 28 07:04:10 2009
From: peter at thecodergeek.com (Peter Gordon)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 00:04:10 -0700
Subject: Heads-up - rb_libtorrent: soname bump, rebuilds required
Message-ID: <1240902250.2741.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I just pushed an update in F12's rawhide (devel branch) to rb_libtorrent
which bumps its soname from "libtorrent-rasterbar.so.2" to
"libtorrent-rasterbar.so.3"

I also made this update in the F-11 branch, but am leaving it in the
dist-f11-updates-candidate tag until all the necessary rebuilds are
complete. (I have filed ticket #1667 asking that the excellent rel-eng
folks to have it tagged into the buildroot override.)

This is merely a bug-fix release, so a simple rebuild should be
sufficient to work with this new version. However, should any problems
arise please don't hesitate to poke me incessantly. ;)

According to repoquery, the list of dependent packages (whose owners are
CC-ed on this message) is as follows:

* springlobby
* qbittorrent

Miro and Deluge also depend on rb_libtorrent, but only through the
Python interface (rb_libtorrent-python), so they should not need such a
rebuild.

Thanks, and Regards.
-- 
Peter Gordon (codergeek42) <peter at thecodergeek.com>
Who am I? :: http://thecodergeek.com/about-me



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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 17:23:28 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:23:28 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <gt7e2g$ouh$5@ger.gmane.org>

Ben Boeckel wrote:
> How about page (or put it into an existing page) with a
> set of radio buttons for which DE to install? GNOME,
> KDE, XFCE, None, etc.

That's what several other distros do, and I agree that it would be a good
thing for the DVD.

        Kevin Kofler



From oget.fedora at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 17:24:47 2009
From: oget.fedora at gmail.com (Orcan Ogetbil)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:24:47 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240939114.7895.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com> 
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<16de708d0904271029v7342d599p10fe53dd8e240115@mail.gmail.com> 
	<gt7dkb$ouh$3@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240939114.7895.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <e76492710904281024g714a6c30uabbe4c4db9b7e92c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Julian Aloofi wrote:
> Am Dienstag, den 28.04.2009, 19:15 +0200 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
>> Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> > Add a randomize button... and I'm completely serious about that.
>>
>> I think that would be a really bad idea. Even a bad default is better than a
>> random default!
>>
>> ? ? ? ? Kevin Kofler
>>
>
> At this point I want to mention my option 5.) again ;)
> Don't forget, we will get famous!
>
> No seriously, that's the worst thing we can do, because the user knows
> that he made a choice, but he never knew, what he chose.
>

So why don't we give users some brief information about what KDE and
Gnome are about, accompanied with some screenshots, and let them
decide?

Orcan



From cdahlin at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 17:28:16 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:28:16 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F728FA.3040604@hi.is>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>	<1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>	<49F71D1E.30206@redhat.com>
	<49F728FA.3040604@hi.is>
Message-ID: <49F73CB0.3060301@redhat.com>

J?hann B. Gu?mundsson wrote:
> Casey Dahlin wrote:
>> J?hann B. Gu?mundsson wrote:
>>  
>>> So the question is this...
>>>
>>> Should we or should we not drop the Default Desktop concept?
>>>
>>> If we decided we will abandon default desktop concept only then we can
>>> start talking about what
>>> are the necessary steps to complete that task.
>>>
>>> JGB
>>>
>>>     
>>
>> I think dropping the default desktop is the wrong way to accomplish
>> what you want.   
> Hum what do you think I want?
> 
> Just curious if i'm not clear enough you know to prevent
> misunderstanding on what I want..
> 

You'd like the desktops to be treated symmetrically, from what I gather. The most elegant way to do that from a technical and a UI standpoint is to offer a different version of the media for each. It prevents us from overflowing media, from adding clutter or over-technical choices to the install process itself, and it means the user is being presented the decision via a website (a much better place to educate and inform).

Of course it only achieves the desired "balance" if neither media is the "main" media. We should simply have Fedora KDE and Fedora GNOME. Neither one is "regular" Fedora.

Are there volunteers to do the work to engineer things this way?

--CJD

> JBG
> 



From julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com  Tue Apr 28 17:29:43 2009
From: julian.fedoralists at googlemail.com (Julian Aloofi)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:29:43 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904281024g714a6c30uabbe4c4db9b7e92c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904271029v7342d599p10fe53dd8e240115@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt7dkb$ouh$3@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240939114.7895.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904281024g714a6c30uabbe4c4db9b7e92c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240939783.7895.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Am Dienstag, den 28.04.2009, 13:24 -0400 schrieb Orcan Ogetbil:
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Julian Aloofi wrote:
> > Am Dienstag, den 28.04.2009, 19:15 +0200 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
> >> Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> >> > Add a randomize button... and I'm completely serious about that.
> >>
> >> I think that would be a really bad idea. Even a bad default is better than a
> >> random default!
> >>
> >>         Kevin Kofler
> >>
> >
> > At this point I want to mention my option 5.) again ;)
> > Don't forget, we will get famous!
> >
> > No seriously, that's the worst thing we can do, because the user knows
> > that he made a choice, but he never knew, what he chose.
> >
> 
> So why don't we give users some brief information about what KDE and
> Gnome are about, accompanied with some screenshots, and let them
> decide?
> 
> Orcan
> 
That's exactly what I talked about on option 4.), but now as I'm typing
I realize that what I wrote could easily be mixed up with a signature
because I used a line like this (IGNORE THIS LINE :))
_____________________________________________________________________
to seperate it from the first part of my message. I'll just add it
again. This is what I wrote:


As far as I see we have the following choices:

1.)Don't change anything. GNOME is the default desktop.

2.)Put all possible desktops on the DVD, but we choose a default live CD
that is also used as default installation media.

3.)Create a bloated LiveDVD that contains all desktops and use it as
default installation media.

4.)We use the DVD as default installation media, put all desktops on it,
use it as default installation media and teach the users about the
different desktops in an info window before they choose their desktop.
For users who don't have a DVD drive or want to test Fedora we can still
offer an info page on fedoraproject.org and link to the live CD's.

5.)desktop = rand()

Option 2 is pretty nice. We had the default installation media with a
default desktop and that's what the normal user, who doesn't care about
choices and just uses the default programs and so on, would use.
And everyone who knows about the diffent DE'S could use the DVD or a
non-default live CD. The only thing we had to care about then is, that
we have to fit as many desktops as possible on the DVD. At the moment we
only have GNOME and KDE on the DVD, so we had to add LXDE(3.2 MB),
XFCE(16.4 MB) and various others (e17, fluxbox, TWM etc.) who will,
summed up, not be about more than 35 MB's (just a guess, based on the
package sizes that packagekit tells me).
Then we had a default desktop for all new users, but would treat all
desktops equally on the DVD.



If we'd use option 3 I could think of a GRUB based menu like 
Welcome to Fedora:
Boot Fedora with GNOME
Boot Fedora with KDE
Boot Fedora with XFCE
Boot Fedora with LXDE
Boot Fedora with Enlightenment 17
etc...
Install Fedora (that would allow users to choose their desktop while
they install)

That would also be acceptable, but the users wouldn't know what the
different desktops are when they enter GRUB (I don't know how hard it
would be to realize that outside of GRUB, or to realize that at all).



Option 4 (the option I prefer) is also pretty nice, because it informs
users about the DE's before they install. We can give them all
information they need and we wouldn't have a default desktop anymore, so
everyone is happy. A disadvantage may be the lost "consolidation of
efforts", but maybe that is the price we have to pay for being
politically correct.



Option 5 would be funny, and maybe I even prefer it over option 4, but I
think we could lose some users, and some people could make jokes about
us. But we would be a legend and even in 10+ years people would
say:"They did it the Fedora way" if they talked about random decisions
or decisions they can't understand.

In the end we have to notice that Fedora is a project, which involves
many people with different interests, and saying "We really like your
work, KDE people, but GNOME is just better, we'll use it as our default
desktop" (nobody said that, but maybe that's how some people feel) is
not fair, and if only one person of the KDE/XFCE/LXDE/etc guys says that
they want to be threatened equally it's something we definetly have to
think about.

By the way, just out of curiosity, I wonder how "the Red Hat guys" think
about that, and if they would like to see the Fedora project taking a
certain direction, as RedHat seemed to be more GNOME-focused as far as I
know and remember. (for example this doesn't contain any KDE/Qt related
apps:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Red_Hat_contributions#Desktop_Software)

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From pingou at pingoured.fr  Tue Apr 28 17:38:03 2009
From: pingou at pingoured.fr (Pierre-Yves)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:38:03 +0200
Subject: R-tkWidgets license changed
Message-ID: <1240940283.6181.11.camel@red.localdomain>

Dear list,
Small announce to say that the license of R-tkWidgets changes from
LGPLv2+ to Artistic 2.0

Regards,

Pierre



From pemboa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 17:41:19 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:41:19 -0500
Subject: Ext4 FAQ
In-Reply-To: <49F726BC.7050508@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49F726BC.7050508@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904281041u65f03035xef4608cbd034103d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Rahul Sundaram
<sundaram at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have put up a FAQ at
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ext4_in_Fedora_11
>
> I will be expanding this over time. If you have other unanswered
> questions, do let me know.
>
> Rahul


Not exactly a devel question, but Fedora is getting a lot of flac in
the "media" for it's defaulting to EXT4, is there any planned rebuttal
response by the Fedora Project overlords?


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From dwmw2 at infradead.org  Tue Apr 28 17:43:39 2009
From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:43:39 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 Preview Release announcement
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904280940240.9793@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904280940240.9793@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240940619.2567.139.camel@macbook.infradead.org>

On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 09:54 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote:
> This is the Fedora 11 Preview release, we're just a short time from 
> releasing the full shebang. Therefore we need the most testing we can 
> possibly get on this one. On the torrent sites you'll find live images
> for testing:

I'm sorry, I can't hear you. Can you turn it up a bit?

What do you mean, it won't go any louder? The _last_ release used to go
louder.

Can you try looking around in the menus to see if there's anything there
that'll help?

-- 
dwmw2



From sandeen at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 17:45:02 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:45:02 -0500
Subject: Ext4 FAQ
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904281041u65f03035xef4608cbd034103d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F726BC.7050508@fedoraproject.org>
	<16de708d0904281041u65f03035xef4608cbd034103d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F7409E.6030806@redhat.com>

Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Rahul Sundaram
> <sundaram at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I have put up a FAQ at
>>
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ext4_in_Fedora_11
>>
>> I will be expanding this over time. If you have other unanswered
>> questions, do let me know.
>>
>> Rahul
> 
> 
> Not exactly a devel question, but Fedora is getting a lot of flac in
> the "media" for it's defaulting to EXT4, is there any planned rebuttal
> response by the Fedora Project overlords?

Any URLs for examples of this flac in the media?

-Eric



From pemboa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 17:56:45 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:56:45 -0500
Subject: Ext4 FAQ
In-Reply-To: <49F7409E.6030806@redhat.com>
References: <49F726BC.7050508@fedoraproject.org>
	<16de708d0904281041u65f03035xef4608cbd034103d@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F7409E.6030806@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904281056g3e2c595cj1fa599b807471b4c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com> wrote:
> Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Rahul Sundaram
>> <sundaram at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I have put up a FAQ at
>>>
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ext4_in_Fedora_11
>>>
>>> I will be expanding this over time. If you have other unanswered
>>> questions, do let me know.
>>>
>>> Rahul
>>
>>
>> Not exactly a devel question, but Fedora is getting a lot of flac in
>> the "media" for it's defaulting to EXT4, is there any planned rebuttal
>> response by the Fedora Project overlords?
>
> Any URLs for examples of this flac in the media?
>
> -Eric


I'll have to retract that till I have links to back that up. My
bookmarks fail me now.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Tue Apr 28 18:02:50 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:02:50 -0500
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090426163220.GF660@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<1240616178.26274.3.camel@localhost>	<49F24E47.9010103@redhat.com>	<1240617165.2984.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49F25612.1080301@redhat.com>	<1240620498.3011.1.camel@vaio.local.net>	<1240695940.5771.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240696706.2919.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240697729.5771.108.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240735132.21153.805.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<20090426163220.GF660@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <gt7gcb$91l$1@ger.gmane.org>

Lennart Poettering wrote:
> What I did say however is that using the input feedback
> functionality of your sound card as a way to connect two machines to a
> single set of speakers is an exotic usage I don't see the need for to
> expose in the UI.

Funny, I've done that twice (at home, and at work). Doesn't seem at all 
unusual for any case of having more than one machine. (I wouldn't even 
think it's that unusual even to do things like patching, say, a PS3 
through a computer.)

 From our perspectives, this usage isn't "exotic" at all, and that you 
continually insist it is feels offensive.

I've also seen people doing things like hooking multiple independent 
sound systems to single inputs (not computers, granted). IOW, I've seen 
more sound setups you consider "exotic" than setups you apparently 
consider "mainstream"... *especially* if you take laptops out of the 
equation. Now, I don't have a representative sample, but *neither do 
you*. Try seeing things from our perspective, for a change, instead of 
assuming that you have the truth and we are aberrations.

(Fortunately I am a KDE user, and have kmix, and so this conversation 
mostly doesn't apply to me.)

Oh, and, please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message 
bodies. Better yet, please configure your mailer not to do so.

> You lose the ability to have more than one CD to play from.

No you don't. I had (and still have, AFAIK) two CDAA cables plugged into 
my sound card (one is in AUX), and I believe I have a third AA cable 
from a TV tuner. (To be fair, I don't know which, if any, are still 
needed, but at any rate, you're wrong that it can't be done.)

-- 
Matthew
What sort of trite mind
Didst produce this signature
 From random input



From mclasen at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 18:22:24 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:22:24 -0400
Subject: GConf changes in F12
Message-ID: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I've committed patches to GConf and intltool that change the way schema
translations are handled. 

Previously, translations were merged by intltool from .po files into
schemas files and then copied by gconftool from the schemas file into
the database. 

Now, translations are kept in .po files, and intltool only copies the
gettext domain into the schemas, and further into the GConf database.
The only tool that ever uses these translations, gconf-editor, knows how
to get them from the message catalogs.

The big advantage of this change is that schemas shrink radically, which
should help a lot with the 'slow updates due to GConf' problem. It also
reduces the redundancy of storing the schema translations in three
places, which should help with live cd size.

Since the changes are somewhat involved, I'd like to ask for feedback in
case something appears odd or broken wrt. to GConf schemas and their
translations in the near future.


Thanks, Matthias



From jlaska at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 18:26:26 2009
From: jlaska at redhat.com (James Laska)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:26:26 -0400
Subject: 2009-04-30 - Fedora Test Day - System Security Services Daemon
 (SSSD)
Message-ID: <1240943186.3208.647.camel@flatline.devel.redhat.com>

Greetings testers,

For this weeks Test Day we'll be joined by the System Security Services
Daemon (SSSD) team.  SSSD provides several key enhancements to Fedora
11, including:
      * Offline caching for network credentials
      * LDAP connection pooling
      * D-Bus InfoPipe service for extending user information (e.g. face
        browser images, preferred language, etc..)

A lot of prep work has going into making this test day a reality.  Test
cases [1] have been defined, a fedora-infrastructure hosted LDAP server
will be available for testing [2], detailed setup instructions defined
[3], and all of it pulled together in a pre-configured live image [4] to
make testing easier.

I invite you to join #fedora-qa this Thursday, April 30 2009 to help
shake out bugs.  There will be a good crowd of development and quality
folks to help answer questions and triage issues.  Stay tuned for more
details at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-04-30_SSSD.

Thanks,
James

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-04-30_SSSD#How_to_test.3F
[2] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-infrastructure-list/2009-April/msg00043.html
[3] http://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/Fedora_11_Test_Day/Installation
[4] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-04-30_SSSD#Live_Image
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From jspaleta at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 18:29:31 2009
From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:29:31 -0800
Subject: GConf changes in F12
In-Reply-To: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <604aa7910904281129o42371f22wc68914848232bff5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> wrote:
> Since the changes are somewhat involved, I'd like to ask for feedback in
> case something appears odd or broken wrt. to GConf schemas and their
> translations in the near future.

Just to be clear, you are talking about translations as they appear in
gconf-editor specifically?  Where do you want the feedback, this
thread or is there a bug ticket you want feedback driven to?

-jef



From mclasen at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 18:35:56 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:35:56 -0400
Subject: GConf changes in F12
In-Reply-To: <604aa7910904281129o42371f22wc68914848232bff5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<604aa7910904281129o42371f22wc68914848232bff5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240943756.2770.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 10:29 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> wrote:
> > Since the changes are somewhat involved, I'd like to ask for feedback in
> > case something appears odd or broken wrt. to GConf schemas and their
> > translations in the near future.
> 
> Just to be clear, you are talking about translations as they appear in
> gconf-editor specifically?  Where do you want the feedback, this
> thread or is there a bug ticket you want feedback driven to?
> 

Yes, the translations I am talking about are the long and short
descriptions of gconf keys that you can see in gconf-editor. As for
feedback, if you notice breakage, filing a bug against the package
containing the schema would be natural, I think. CC me if you like, but
I'll likely see it anyway.



From ajax at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 18:46:56 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:46:56 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <e76492710904281024g714a6c30uabbe4c4db9b7e92c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org> <49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>
	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>
	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<16de708d0904271029v7342d599p10fe53dd8e240115@mail.gmail.com>
	<gt7dkb$ouh$3@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240939114.7895.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<e76492710904281024g714a6c30uabbe4c4db9b7e92c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240944416.18324.91.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 13:24 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

> So why don't we give users some brief information about what KDE and
> Gnome are about, accompanied with some screenshots, and let them
> decide?

Because it's a bad idea.  Choice is not the goal.  We have many
interesting problems to solve and forcing the user to care about their
choice of solutions is both bad UI and actively detracts from the real
goal, which is making it work out of the box and enabling people to work
on the really cool stuff at the edges.

Distros are not interesting.  They exist to be invisible, to get out of
your way and let you do what you're really trying to do.  If what you're
really trying to do is "install the newest X" [1], then you're a
fetishist, not a user.

Also: this thread is the cancer that is killing /fd/.  It's soapboxing
pretending to be a development discussion.  I'd like my development list
back please.

- ajax
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From williams at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 18:57:58 2009
From: williams at redhat.com (Clark Williams)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:57:58 -0500
Subject: More mock problems
In-Reply-To: <d5ad21470904280803v721a10a0ia6c78197b1c9a96a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <gt6so7$sk1$1@ger.gmane.org> <gt72ac$hr7$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<d5ad21470904280803v721a10a0ia6c78197b1c9a96a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090428135758.5296cdf3@torg>

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Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:03:34 +0200
Gianluca Sforna <giallu at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Neal Becker <ndbecker2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ?mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --shell
> > INFO: mock.py version 0.9.14 starting...
> > State Changed: init plugins
> > State Changed: start
> > State Changed: lock buildroot
> > mock-chroot> rpm -q igraph
> > rpmdb: Program version 4.7 doesn't match environment version 4.5
> > error: db4 error(-30971) from dbenv->open: DB_VERSION_MISMATCH: Database
> > environment version mismatch
> > error: cannot open Packages index using db3 - ?(-30971)
> > error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm> rpmdb: Program version 4.7 doesn't match environment version 4.5
> 
> the buildroot is populated from the outside, using the "host" yum and
> rpm. For that to work I think you need to upgrade the host's rpm to
> (not sure if 4.6 is enough, probably yes)
> 
>

Yup, the rpmdb in the chroot is built with the host rpm, not the one
installed in the chroot. To query what's in the chroot, try this:

$ rpm --root $(mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --print-root-path) -q igraph

(or just print the root path and pass that directly to --root)

Clark
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From ndbecker2 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 19:04:36 2009
From: ndbecker2 at gmail.com (Neal Becker)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:04:36 -0400
Subject: More mock problems
References: <gt6so7$sk1$1@ger.gmane.org> <gt72ac$hr7$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<d5ad21470904280803v721a10a0ia6c78197b1c9a96a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090428135758.5296cdf3@torg>
Message-ID: <gt7k05$kte$1@ger.gmane.org>

Clark Williams wrote:

...
> Yup, the rpmdb in the chroot is built with the host rpm, not the one
> installed in the chroot. To query what's in the chroot, try this:
> 
> $ rpm --root $(mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --print-root-path) -q igraph
> 
rpm --root $(mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --print-root-path) -q igraph
package igraph is not installed

But why isn't it installed?  As I showed, I did:
 mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --install 
~/fedora/igraph/devel/igraph-0_5_2-1_fc12/igraph-0.5.2-1.fc11.x86_64.rpm 

 mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --install 
~/fedora/igraph/devel/igraph-0_5_2-1_fc12/igraph-
devel-0.5.2-1.fc11.x86_64.rpm 

mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --install 
~/fedora/igraph/devel/igraph-0_5_2-1_fc12/igraph-
debuginfo-0.5.2-1.fc11.x86_64.rpm 

mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --rebuild --no-clean 
python-igraph-0.5.2-2.fc12.src.rpm 

Notice I used --no-clean.




From johannbg at hi.is  Tue Apr 28 19:15:13 2009
From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:15:13 +0000
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240944416.18324.91.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>	<2d319b780904270302r627104e3mb3cf60e7afcaf977@mail.gmail.com>	<gt4jaf$ofu$2@ger.gmane.org>
	<49F5D3C2.1060806@redhat.com>	<49F5E112.9030501@robertoragusa.it>	<1240852923.3101.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<16de708d0904271029v7342d599p10fe53dd8e240115@mail.gmail.com>	<gt7dkb$ouh$3@ger.gmane.org>	<1240939114.7895.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<e76492710904281024g714a6c30uabbe4c4db9b7e92c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240944416.18324.91.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F755C1.9040207@hi.is>

Adam Jackson wrote:
> Also: this thread is the cancer that is killing /fd/.  It's soapboxing
> pretending to be a development discussion.  I'd like my development list
> back please.
>   

This thread was never intended to be somekind of "soapboxing"..

Honestly I dont see how you came to that conclusion if you read the 
first thread
on this topic.

But I do understand your concerns regarding  /fd/ given the recent threads.

Encase you don't realize we are encounter the same/similar dilemma with 
packagekit
( as I see it )

An end user double clicks an file that is open with application that he 
does not have installed.

Do we present the end user with a choice on selecting which application 
he would like to open from
available application and thus allow him to freely select and try 
different application that can open/execute that file
or do we automatically make that chose for him and select and install 
that application for him?

JBG
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From drago01 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 19:29:17 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:29:17 +0200
Subject: GConf changes in F12
In-Reply-To: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904281229t23dcdc80uab5dcd30701ec0a3@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> wrote:
> I've committed patches to GConf and intltool that change the way schema
> translations are handled.
>
> Previously, translations were merged by intltool from .po files into
> schemas files and then copied by gconftool from the schemas file into
> the database.
>
> Now, translations are kept in .po files, and intltool only copies the
> gettext domain into the schemas, and further into the GConf database.
> The only tool that ever uses these translations, gconf-editor, knows how
> to get them from the message catalogs.
>
> The big advantage of this change is that schemas shrink radically, which
> should help a lot with the 'slow updates due to GConf' problem. It also
> reduces the redundancy of storing the schema translations in three
> places, which should help with live cd size.
>
> Since the changes are somewhat involved, I'd like to ask for feedback in
> case something appears odd or broken wrt. to GConf schemas and their
> translations in the near future.

Should we rebuild all gconf using apps to take advantage of this?



From notting at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 19:31:52 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:31:52 -0400
Subject: GConf changes in F12
In-Reply-To: <f6ca9fed0904281229t23dcdc80uab5dcd30701ec0a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<f6ca9fed0904281229t23dcdc80uab5dcd30701ec0a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090428193151.GA23591@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

drago01 (drago01 at gmail.com) said: 
> > Since the changes are somewhat involved, I'd like to ask for feedback in
> > case something appears odd or broken wrt. to GConf schemas and their
> > translations in the near future.
> 
> Should we rebuild all gconf using apps to take advantage of this?

I would say eventually before F12 ships, sure. I doubt there's a huge
hurry to do it now.

Bill



From jreiser at BitWagon.com  Tue Apr 28 19:53:11 2009
From: jreiser at BitWagon.com (John Reiser)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:53:11 -0700
Subject: GConf changes in F12
In-Reply-To: <20090428193151.GA23591@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<f6ca9fed0904281229t23dcdc80uab5dcd30701ec0a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090428193151.GA23591@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F75EA7.40407@BitWagon.com>

>> Should we rebuild all gconf using apps to take advantage of this?
> 
> I would say eventually before F12 ships, sure. I doubt there's a huge
> hurry to do it now.

Rebuilding anything that uses gconf should be a requirement for alpha.

-- 



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 20:03:21 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:03:21 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<e76492710904271253h64ec1972s35b1fbcbfe0e07df@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240862532.2514.5.camel@choeger6>
	<8278b1b0904271318ta17f175scc91d89a9b2092ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt7nea$1pt$1@ger.gmane.org>

King InuYasha wrote:
> The only time KDE was a first class citizen on Red Hat/Fedora Linux was
> RHL 8.0 to 9.

Well, those were the days where RH tried to "unify" the desktop and to ship
mixed GNOME and KDE applications, with the infamous Bluecurve theme. This
was highly controversial: some people loved it, some liked parts of it, but
many others hated it. I like the Bluecurve theme that came out of this
initiative because of the consistency it brings among apps, and in fact I
still use it, but many people hated it. But the drawback of that approach
was that the KDE which was shipped wasn't a pure KDE, it used some
GTK+/GNOME apps, nor was the GNOME which was shipped a pure GNOME (the idea
was to make "best of breed" apps the default in both desktops, no matter
what they used; of course, there was strong bias towards GNOME apps even
back then, only a few KDE apps made the cut, like K3b) and the default
look&feel was also a mix of both.

This strategy has been abandoned since, and I think most people don't miss
it. Also because both GNOME and KDE are more complete now, so shipping a
mix of both to get the best apps isn't really necessary anymore, and
integration between applications has improved, so you get more value out of
the second best app if it's integrated into your desktop than out of the
best app if it isn't. Now of course, specialized apps will often be
available only in one version and you'll use them no matter what toolkit
they use, but for the default apps, you really want apps written for your
desktop in most cases.

        Kevin Kofler



From mclasen at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 20:10:24 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:10:24 -0400
Subject: GConf changes in F12
In-Reply-To: <f6ca9fed0904281229t23dcdc80uab5dcd30701ec0a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<f6ca9fed0904281229t23dcdc80uab5dcd30701ec0a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240949424.2770.11.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 21:29 +0200, drago01 wrote:

> 
> Should we rebuild all gconf using apps to take advantage of this?
> 

I've rebuilt the ones with the biggest schemas files that I have
convenient access to, and I'm confident all relevant packages will see a
rebuild 'by natural causes' before F12 anyway...



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 21:11:13 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:11:13 -0700
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 16:48 +0100, Naheem Zaffar wrote:

> Forcing a choice at install time to uninformed users is plain bad
> usability. Allowing those that are informed to change the defaults is
> the right way.

Naheem nailed this one. The problem with forcing a choice is that, for a
certain group of people, the choice is nonsense: they have no idea what
they are being asked to choose, or what they should choose. Of course
they can pick at random and probably be happy with whatever they pick,
but there's still two costs in that case: we have to ask everyone "are
you running KDE or GNOME?" rather than assuming they're on GNOME unless
they say they're on KDE, and more importantly, being forced to make a
choice you don't understand makes you frustrated. The more such choices
we have in our flow, the more frustrated we're making people.

Of course, the choice also has value to other people. So - as these
things so often do - the question boils down to: who do we care about
more? People who don't know what the choice means, or people who do
know, and want it?

And again as is so often the case, the only way to answer that question
is if we really have a clear and solid definition of what we're trying
to be, for whom. Which we don't, really.

This is why this has turned into a directionless debate, as Adam Jackson
pointed out: the question is essentially impossible to answer in our
current situation. There is no way it can be clearly agreed which course
of action would be better.

I think the only useful thing to come out is that a screen which just
lets you pick your desktop is probably a good idea. All the other major
distributions with a genuinely multi-desktop installer do this. I'd say
we should implement it and make GNOME the default simply because that's
our current situation and, when unsure, one should always make the least
possible amount of change to achieve the immediate goal.

(My entirely un-serious suggestion is that the screen feature a dog
called Gordon, a cat called Kristen, and a snake called Xavier. You can
probably see what happens from there.)

To address the suggestion that the selection screen feature a short
explanation of the choices - try actually *writing* that explanation,
and fitting it into two lines, in a way that makes both the GNOME and
KDE people happy. Actually, unless you love to be frustrated, don't.
I've done this. It wasn't a fun week.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 21:13:39 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:13:39 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>	<1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is> <49F71D1E.30206@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gt7ri3$e7i$1@ger.gmane.org>

Casey Dahlin wrote:
> The /right/ way is to make the KDE spin a first-class product, released at
> the same time as the "main" release

That's already the case.

> and given equal billing on the website.

This is where things start being a problem: the GNOME spin is described as
just "Desktop Edition" and offered directly on the download page, the KDE
spin is hidden behind a "KDE fans. go here!" button and labeled "KDE
Desktop Edition".

        Kevin Kofler



From ich at frank-schmitt.net  Tue Apr 28 21:33:16 2009
From: ich at frank-schmitt.net (Frank Schmitt)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:33:16 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>

Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> writes:

> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 16:48 +0100, Naheem Zaffar wrote:
>
>> Forcing a choice at install time to uninformed users is plain bad
>> usability. Allowing those that are informed to change the defaults is
>> the right way.
>
> Naheem nailed this one. The problem with forcing a choice is that, for a
> certain group of people, the choice is nonsense: they have no idea what
> they are being asked to choose, or what they should choose.

We could ask the Gnome project to describe in two sentences the
differences between Gnome and KDE 4 and also ask KDE to do so. The
result could be a hint for the user.

The following is just some random bullshit, please don't take it
seriously. I just want to demonstrate length and terminology of such a
hint for the user (but probably even talking about frameworks and
applets might be to high level): 

[screen-  Gnome: A desktop environment that tries hard to enforce
 shot     consistent, accessible and coherent user interfaces. By
 default  default the list of running applications and the main menu
 desktop] items are split into two panels.


[screen-  KDE: A desktop environment that gives its users more
 shot     possibilities to adapt the environment to specific needs. In
 default  KDE 4, panels and desktop are just different instances of a
 desktop] common framework, allowing to move applets between panels and
          the desktop.

-- 
Have you ever considered how much text can fit in eighty columns?  Given that a
signature typically contains up to four lines of text, this space allows you to
attach a tremendous amount of valuable information to your messages.  Seize the
opportunity and don't waste your signature on bullshit that nobody cares about.



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 21:43:17 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:43:17 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F72CEA.8030103@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280942w53c2f381nd39d8a66565972b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gt7t9m$kqf$1@ger.gmane.org>

Naheem Zaffar wrote:
> Then ubuntu came along and since it was a one cd distribution, it went for
> "best of breed applications" - not sure if it accomplished that

No. You can't accomplish that by only shipping either KDE or GNOME, and not
at least the libraries of the other (and a 1 CD distribution doesn't really
allow for shipping the complete libraries of both, and definitely not the
complete environments). The only way you can really get "best of breed"
applications is by shipping both KDE and GNOME and cherry-picking the
applications from both. The result is a poorly-integrated hodgepodge of
apps with different HIGs. This sounded like a good idea in RHL 8 times, but
these days both GNOME and KDE are complete enough to cover the default
apps. You'll most likely still need the other environment's libraries, or
even stuff like Tcl/Tk, for specialized apps, but those are not part of the
default install.

What Ubuntu really ships is only GNOME applications, and only KDE
applications in Kubuntu.

> but since then other distributions were "forced" to make decisions. Fedora
> including.

The "only one application" concept doesn't come from Ubuntu, it comes from
the necessity to fit on one CD. Likewise the "only one desktop" concept. We
may see a return to offering multiple desktops and multiple apps for the
same task at some point in the future with live DVDs.

        Kevin Kofler



From williams at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 21:49:08 2009
From: williams at redhat.com (Clark Williams)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:49:08 -0500
Subject: More mock problems
In-Reply-To: <gt7k05$kte$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gt6so7$sk1$1@ger.gmane.org> <gt72ac$hr7$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<d5ad21470904280803v721a10a0ia6c78197b1c9a96a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090428135758.5296cdf3@torg> <gt7k05$kte$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090428164908.6f0dde81@torg>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:04:36 -0400
Neal Becker <ndbecker2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Clark Williams wrote:
> 
> ...
> > Yup, the rpmdb in the chroot is built with the host rpm, not the one
> > installed in the chroot. To query what's in the chroot, try this:
> > 
> > $ rpm --root $(mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --print-root-path) -q igraph
> > 
> rpm --root $(mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --print-root-path) -q igraph
> package igraph is not installed
> 
> But why isn't it installed?  As I showed, I did:
>   
> ~/fedora/igraph/devel/igraph-0_5_2-1_fc12/igraph-0.5.2-1.fc11.x86_64.rpm 
> 
>  mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --install 
> ~/fedora/igraph/devel/igraph-0_5_2-1_fc12/igraph-
> devel-0.5.2-1.fc11.x86_64.rpm 
> 
> mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --install 
> ~/fedora/igraph/devel/igraph-0_5_2-1_fc12/igraph-
> debuginfo-0.5.2-1.fc11.x86_64.rpm 
> 
> mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --rebuild --no-clean 
> python-igraph-0.5.2-2.fc12.src.rpm 
> 
> Notice I used --no-clean.
> 


That all looks correct. You might want to verify the rpmdb in the
chroot:

$ rpm --root $(mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --print-root-path) -V --all

If that doesn't show any problems (aside from /proc and /sys, which is
expected), you might want to check the db with a clean chroot:

$ mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --init
$ mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --install \
  ~/fedora/igraph/devel/igraph-0_5_2-1_fc12/igraph-0.5.2-1.fc11.x86_64.rpm
$ rpm --root $(mock -r fedora-devel-x86_64 --print-root-path) -q igraph

It *should* show igraph in there. 

Clark
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 21:46:40 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:46:40 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
Message-ID: <gt7tg0$kqf$2@ger.gmane.org>

"J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote:
> AFAIK what would be required to accomplish this is change all
> documentation and filenames to refer to Gnome desktop instead of Default
> desktop, Fedora desktop or just Desktop and make minor changes to
> Anaconda.

+1, me and other KDE folks have been fighting for that for ages, so far with
very limited success. :-( The GNOME spin is still misleadingly advertised
as the "Desktop Edition" and the KDE spin is hidden behind an extra click
(which is actually a regression compared to the old version of the
get-fedora page, which made much more sense, it also didn't hide the 64-bit
versions which all users of new non-netbook hardware should be using). :-(

        Kevin Kofler



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 21:54:35 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:54:35 -0700
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
Message-ID: <1240955675.32113.227.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 23:33 +0200, Frank Schmitt wrote:

> The following is just some random bullshit, please don't take it
> seriously. I just want to demonstrate length and terminology of such a
> hint for the user (but probably even talking about frameworks and
> applets might be to high level): 
> 
> [screen-  Gnome: A desktop environment that tries hard to enforce
>  shot     consistent, accessible and coherent user interfaces. By
>  default  default the list of running applications and the main menu
>  desktop] items are split into two panels.
> 
> 
> [screen-  KDE: A desktop environment that gives its users more
>  shot     possibilities to adapt the environment to specific needs. In
>  default  KDE 4, panels and desktop are just different instances of a
>  desktop] common framework, allowing to move applets between panels and
>           the desktop.

You're on to four to five lines of text, which is way more than anyone
wants to read to make a selection like this. Your text also assumes
knowledge of what a "desktop environment" is, what a "panel" is, what an
"applet" is...(and whether that's a problem or not *again* comes down to
exactly who we're caring about here).

I know you said not to care too much about your specific text, but I see
the same problems every time someone attempts this. Describing GNOME and
KDE in a concise fashion in a way that makes sense to someone who
doesn't already actually *know* the difference seems very close to an
un-solveable problem.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 21:58:16 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:58:16 +0200
Subject: PPC build error regarding cc1plus and msse2 for qtpfsgui
References: <49F600F5.5090903@silfreed.net>
Message-ID: <gt7u5o$mus$1@ger.gmane.org>

Douglas E. Warner wrote:
> My recent build [1] (buildlog [2]) of a new qtpfsgui is failing with the
> following error on PPC architectures:
> 
> cc1plus: error: unrecognized command line option "-msse2"
> 
> Any thoughts?

Patch that out. The app must not require SSE2 even on x86 as it'll break
support for older CPUs which you're supposed to support with the i586
packages. And on PPC it's definitely invalid, there's no form of SSE on
PPC. (There's Altivec.)

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 22:06:26 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:06:26 +0200
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6091F.1070901@herr-schmitt.de>
	<49F609C4.6010408@redhat.com>
	<0ML2xA-1LypJB2BDz-00060O@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
	<20090428153842.GC54853@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gt7ul2$mus$2@ger.gmane.org>

Jeremy Katz wrote:
> Anaconda won't let you have an ext4 / without a separate /boot so people
> shouldn't end up getting into trouble

People are going to try to migrate their existing ext3 / to ext4 by one of
the manual instructions and miss the GRUB warning. Poof, a system which
stopped booting. Oops...

I don't see why the GRUB ext4 patches didn't get into F11, they were
definitely ready in time! IMHO they should get tagged in even now.

        Kevin Kofler



From bnocera at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 22:22:17 2009
From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:22:17 +0100
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240955675.32113.227.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<1240955675.32113.227.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1240957337.5037.6601.camel@cookie.hadess.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 14:54 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
<snip>
> I know you said not to care too much about your specific text, but I see
> the same problems every time someone attempts this. Describing GNOME and
> KDE in a concise fashion in a way that makes sense to someone who
> doesn't already actually *know* the difference seems very close to an
> un-solveable problem.

"
KDE: made by Germans with white lab coats
GNOME: made by drug-addicted luminaries
"

I wish I had the link to back that up.




From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 22:24:44 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:24:44 -0700
Subject: F11 - Error loading intel driver
In-Reply-To: <93d66b780904271132g6bd78aabj8a2accad86772593@mail.gmail.com>
References: <93d66b780904271132g6bd78aabj8a2accad86772593@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240957484.32113.229.camel@adam.local.net>

On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 15:32 -0300, Mario Chacon wrote:
> Hello:
> Is it possible to fix it recompiling some libs??..
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=495524

The bug is correctly triaged and assigned, posting to this list is not
going to help anything. This bug is something specific to your hardware,
it's not happening to any other user I'm aware of (unless it's also
happening to Otto Rey, it's not quite clear from his posts).

It has nothing to do with 'recompiling some libs', I'm not sure where
you got that idea. As far as the information you've provided so far
shows, the bug is in the kernel, in whatever is causing i2c-core to fail
to load.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 22:25:16 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:25:16 +0200
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gt7vod$rs0$1@ger.gmane.org>

Eric Sandeen wrote:
> * Come up with some template autoconf magic to make it easy for
>   apps to detect fallocate() at build time, and some example
>   code on how to use it

Shouldn't:
AC_CHECK_DECLS([fallocate], [], [], [[#include <fcntl.h>]])
(which defines HAVE_DECL_FALLOCATE) be sufficient?

In CMake:
check_symbol_exists(fallocate "fcntl.h" HAVE_DECL_FALLOCATE)
should achieve the same.

        Kevin Kofler



From dmalcolm at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 22:27:37 2009
From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:27:37 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240957337.5037.6601.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<1240955675.32113.227.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240957337.5037.6601.camel@cookie.hadess.net>
Message-ID: <1240957657.4714.72.camel@radiator.bos.redhat.com>


On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 23:22 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 14:54 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> <snip>
> > I know you said not to care too much about your specific text, but I see
> > the same problems every time someone attempts this. Describing GNOME and
> > KDE in a concise fashion in a way that makes sense to someone who
> > doesn't already actually *know* the difference seems very close to an
> > un-solveable problem.
> 
> "
> KDE: made by Germans with white lab coats
> GNOME: made by drug-addicted luminaries
> "
> 
> I wish I had the link to back that up.
I suspect you're referring to this one:
http://www.illusionary.com/GNOMEvKDE.html





From lfarkas at lfarkas.org  Tue Apr 28 22:35:35 2009
From: lfarkas at lfarkas.org (Farkas Levente)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:35:35 +0200
Subject: distro release and reproduceability
Message-ID: <49F784B7.4030806@lfarkas.org>

hi,
i started a thread on centos-devel:
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-devel/2009-April/004398.html
but actually it's nothing to do with centos rather rhel and fedora.
the question comes when i try to rebuild centos on itself. it turns out
not possible what's more it's almost impossible to rebuild (or takes
much more longer then the build time).
the problem is the process how each packages and updates added to the
distro ie. just the new packages rebuild and doesn't care whether the
old packages still build. and easy example the latest mass rebuild.
there were some problems with since new gcc can't compile old 'buggy'
code, but there are many problems which has nothing to do with gcc, rpm
or i586.
the first question:
- is it a goal for fedora to be able to rebuild itself?
i hope the answer is yes:-)
- how we can achieve this goal?
imho the current policy and process is not good enough.

first of all it'd be useful to somehow automatically check all spec file
during builds (eg. don't put check into %build, don't put build into
%install or %prep etc).

the most important when a new or updated package build and added, then
- at leat rebuild every package which depend on or requires the new
package if all builds succeed add the new packages otherwise don't allow
until other compilation fails.
- but would be better same as 1. but also include all new rebuild in the
updates which are different from it's last build (here some smart diff
would be required eg. binary must be the same (what if newer gcc
generate different/better code?) some other files can differ eg.
generated docs can have some 'small' differences. this second step is a
more complicated and requires a few more tools but would be better.

of course all of his requires a bit more build farm resource but produce
a much better and stable distro.

-- 
  Levente                               "Si vis pacem para bellum!"



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 22:40:50 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:40:50 +0200
Subject: More mock problems
References: <gt6so7$sk1$1@ger.gmane.org> <gt72ac$hr7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <gt80li$rs0$2@ger.gmane.org>

Neal Becker wrote:
> rpmdb: Program version 4.7 doesn't match environment version 4.5

You need at least RPM 4.6 on the host systems to build Rawhide packages,
that's at least F10 + updates. All the Fedora builders are running a custom
build of RPM 4.6 on the EL5 hosts.

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 22:42:01 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:42:01 +0200
Subject: rawhide report: 20090428 changes
References: <20090428134010.DE53E1F8203@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gt80np$rs0$3@ger.gmane.org>

Rawhide Report wrote:
> globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
> globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
> globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
> globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
> globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
> globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
> globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
> globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
> gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libexiv2.so.4
> nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
> python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
> python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
> python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.i386 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
> python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
> sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
> sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
> sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7

Oh no, more inheritance madness!

        Kevin Kofler



From tibbs at math.uh.edu  Tue Apr 28 22:48:28 2009
From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:48:28 -0500
Subject: More mock problems
In-Reply-To: <gt80li$rs0$2@ger.gmane.org> (Kevin Kofler's message of "Wed\,
	29 Apr 2009 00\:40\:50 +0200")
References: <gt6so7$sk1$1@ger.gmane.org> <gt72ac$hr7$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<gt80li$rs0$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <ufaws94iedf.fsf@compute22.e.math.uh.edu>

>>>>> "KK" == Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at> writes:

KK> All the Fedora builders are running a custom build of RPM 4.6 on
KK> the EL5 hosts.

There's also a build for F9, but the original post was lacking in a
few details so it's tough to say what would help.  I still have an F9
build farm and have no trouble building rawhide packages.

 - J<



From johannbg at hi.is  Tue Apr 28 22:42:23 2009
From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:42:23 +0000
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240955675.32113.227.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<1240955675.32113.227.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49F7864F.1070602@hi.is>

On 04/28/2009 09:54 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 23:33 +0200, Frank Schmitt wrote:
>
>   
>> The following is just some random bullshit, please don't take it
>> seriously. I just want to demonstrate length and terminology of such a
>> hint for the user (but probably even talking about frameworks and
>> applets might be to high level): 
>>
>> [screen-  Gnome: A desktop environment that tries hard to enforce
>>  shot     consistent, accessible and coherent user interfaces. By
>>  default  default the list of running applications and the main menu
>>  desktop] items are split into two panels.
>>
>>
>> [screen-  KDE: A desktop environment that gives its users more
>>  shot     possibilities to adapt the environment to specific needs. In
>>  default  KDE 4, panels and desktop are just different instances of a
>>  desktop] common framework, allowing to move applets between panels and
>>           the desktop.
>>     
>
> You're on to four to five lines of text, which is way more than anyone
> wants to read to make a selection like this. Your text also assumes
> knowledge of what a "desktop environment" is, what a "panel" is, what an
> "applet" is...(and whether that's a problem or not *again* comes down to
> exactly who we're caring about here).
>
> I know you said not to care too much about your specific text, but I see
> the same problems every time someone attempts this. Describing GNOME and
> KDE in a concise fashion in a way that makes sense to someone who
> doesn't already actually *know* the difference seems very close to an
> un-solveable problem.
>   

Well from my perspective I rather want to see a car ( screenshoots ) and
 take a look at it ( short introduction video )..

If I like what I see I would take it for a test drive ( live cd/usb )
rather
than reading about it.

Ones I run the car I would start reading what's under the hood..

Then again this discussion is kinda of topic and falls under what method
each individual application uses to present it self which btw they are
already facing

JBG
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From pemboa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 22:57:43 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:57:43 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904281557o6e330d79ge674618322e4bdec@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 16:48 +0100, Naheem Zaffar wrote:
>
>> Forcing a choice at install time to uninformed users is plain bad
>> usability. Allowing those that are informed to change the defaults is
>> the right way.
>
> Naheem nailed this one. The problem with forcing a choice is that, for a
> certain group of people, the choice is nonsense:

Do we have any reason to believe that this is a significant percentage
of the Fedora demographic? Or does it not matter if they only make up
1%? If so, are we targeting and possible type of Fedora user?

I personally think there would be less work to be done if Fedora
stopped partially targeting a class of newbie users who can't be
trusted to decide their own DE, but are willing to follow Fedora's
aggressive update/upgrade paths. I have seen little evidence that that
demographic even exists, yet everything seems to be done with their
best interest as the rationale.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From katzj at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 23:05:33 2009
From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:05:33 -0400
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <gt7ul2$mus$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6091F.1070901@herr-schmitt.de>
	<49F609C4.6010408@redhat.com>
	<0ML2xA-1LypJB2BDz-00060O@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
	<20090428153842.GC54853@redhat.com> <gt7ul2$mus$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090428230532.GA56216@redhat.com>

On Wednesday, April 29 2009, Kevin Kofler said:
> Jeremy Katz wrote:
> > Anaconda won't let you have an ext4 / without a separate /boot so people
> > shouldn't end up getting into trouble
> 
> People are going to try to migrate their existing ext3 / to ext4 by one of
> the manual instructions and miss the GRUB warning. Poof, a system which
> stopped booting. Oops...
> 
> I don't see why the GRUB ext4 patches didn't get into F11, they were
> definitely ready in time!

They didn't make it in time for the freezes because the people doing the
work were too focused on other pieces like corruption bugs, the fsync
threads of doom, efi support in grub, fixing grub to build with the new
compiler, ...  It wasn't that "they were ready" -- there was some
testing and integration work that still had to happen. 

> IMHO they should get tagged in even now.

Right, because changing the bootloader in an invasive fashion when we're
past every public milestone seems like a *great* idea!  The patches
*aren't* just "add ext4".  The filesystem driver code in grub is for
ext* and thus it would impact everyone who's using ext2 and ext3 for
/boot as well.

I don't know, I think I'd rather risk problems for people who don't read
directions than *every user of Fedora*.   

Jeremy



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Tue Apr 28 23:11:30 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:11:30 +0200
Subject: GConf changes in F12
References: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <gt82f2$2ob$1@ger.gmane.org>

Matthias Clasen wrote:
> Previously, translations were merged by intltool from .po files into
> schemas files and then copied by gconftool from the schemas file into
> the database.

Is that what caused the insanely-sized .xml files in libgweather? Or is that
a separate issue?

        Kevin Kofler



From awilliam at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 23:18:47 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:18:47 -0700
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904281557o6e330d79ge674618322e4bdec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<16de708d0904281557o6e330d79ge674618322e4bdec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240960727.32113.233.camel@adam.local.net>

On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 17:57 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 16:48 +0100, Naheem Zaffar wrote:
> >
> >> Forcing a choice at install time to uninformed users is plain bad
> >> usability. Allowing those that are informed to change the defaults is
> >> the right way.
> >
> > Naheem nailed this one. The problem with forcing a choice is that, for a
> > certain group of people, the choice is nonsense:
> 
> Do we have any reason to believe that this is a significant percentage
> of the Fedora demographic? Or does it not matter if they only make up
> 1%? If so, are we targeting and possible type of Fedora user?
> 
> I personally think there would be less work to be done if Fedora
> stopped partially targeting a class of newbie users who can't be
> trusted to decide their own DE, but are willing to follow Fedora's
> aggressive update/upgrade paths. I have seen little evidence that that
> demographic even exists, yet everything seems to be done with their
> best interest as the rationale.

I notice you chopped out the bit of my post where I carefully addressed
precisely this question.

To summarize (as I see it): yes they exist, no we don't know how many
there are (and I'd say that's not even important, what matters is
whether we *want* there to be lots of them or not), and there's no real
consensus on whether we should care a lot about them or not. This is the
fundamental problem here.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From mclasen at redhat.com  Tue Apr 28 23:47:07 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:47:07 -0400
Subject: GConf changes in F12
In-Reply-To: <gt82f2$2ob$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gt82f2$2ob$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240962427.2770.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 01:11 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > Previously, translations were merged by intltool from .po files into
> > schemas files and then copied by gconftool from the schemas file into
> > the database.
> 
> Is that what caused the insanely-sized .xml files in libgweather? Or is that
> a separate issue?

No, the xml files in libgweather are just big on their own, no GConf
involved.



From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 29 00:09:44 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:09:44 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <20090427125433.GB510@tango.0pointer.de>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<1240689433.5771.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090425224218.GA14858@tango.0pointer.de>
	<200904271331.24105.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<20090427125433.GB510@tango.0pointer.de>
Message-ID: <1240963784.2656.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 14:54 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> I know that Callum Lerwick thinks he is representative for our
> mythical end user.

The fact you keep repeating that just shows your complete and utter lack
of grip on reality. Or your willingness to consciously spin the facts.
I'm not sure which it is, really.

> I doubt that, in fact I *know* that he is not,
> given that the feedback I otherwise get sounds very different from the
> "Fuck you" from Mr. Lerwick.

I never said I was representative of anything. You're projecting.
Building straw men and crying like *you're* the victim.

If I'm representative of anything I'm representative of the fact I just
wanted my use case, that worked before, to continue working. Just like
anyone else.
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From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Apr 29 00:21:22 2009
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:21:22 -0500
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
 proposal
In-Reply-To: <gt4rqc$t27$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904251714.07573.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<6d959d480904250934h1fb12465ue60b55866d4a188c@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904271329.04618.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<gt4i0e$ofu$1@ger.gmane.org> <49F5E241.2030603@cchtml.com>
	<gt4rqc$t27$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1240964482.2656.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 13:59 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote:
> > Subject: Re: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a 
> modest (productive) 
> > proposal
> > From: Ben Boeckel <MathStuf at gmail.com>
> > To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> > Date: 04/27/2009 10:12 AM
> > 
> >> I've had X lock up or temporarily freeze and 
> kaffeine 
> >> (playing through PA via xine) still plays. The only 
> way 
> >> I've been able to get it to skip is to force 
> basically 
> >> everything into swap with programs that take up 3+GB 
> of 
> >> RAM (making markov chains from big.txt takes...quite 
> a 
> >> bit in duck-typed languages). Maybe it's the dual 
> core 
> >> 3.0GHz, but I've found it hard to skip apps using 
> PA. 
> >> PA is taking 0% CPU and kaffeine jumps to 1% playing 
> >> flac files. Also, PA hasn't even jumped towards the 
> top 
> >> of usage at all in the past few minutes.
> > 
> > 
> > That's amazing, because I have a 3ghz dual core and 
> PA takes ~10% CPU to 
> > play FLAC from Rhythmbox and can skip if I'm doing a 
> lot of work - say 
> > ffmpeg transcoding and moving files. Intel HD audio 
> (yes, generic) 
> > Analog Devices chip.
> > 
> 
> Maybe its a difference between xine and gstreamer?
> 
> % lspci | grep -i audio
> 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 
> Family) HD Audio Controller

Check your logs. This is quite possibly the difference between "My
hardware does 44.1khz natively" and "My hardware only does 48000khz and
playing anything but a DVD requires resampling". Later Intel chipsets
all seem to be the latter.
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From pemboa at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 00:32:41 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:32:41 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1240960727.32113.233.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<16de708d0904281557o6e330d79ge674618322e4bdec@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240960727.32113.233.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904281732h446a43f2h3be20e0bbb162251@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 17:57 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 16:48 +0100, Naheem Zaffar wrote:
>> >
>> >> Forcing a choice at install time to uninformed users is plain bad
>> >> usability. Allowing those that are informed to change the defaults is
>> >> the right way.
>> >
>> > Naheem nailed this one. The problem with forcing a choice is that, for a
>> > certain group of people, the choice is nonsense:
>>
>> Do we have any reason to believe that this is a significant percentage
>> of the Fedora demographic? Or does it not matter if they only make up
>> 1%? If so, are we targeting and possible type of Fedora user?
>>
>> I personally think there would be less work to be done if Fedora
>> stopped partially targeting a class of newbie users who can't be
>> trusted to decide their own DE, but are willing to follow Fedora's
>> aggressive update/upgrade paths. I have seen little evidence that that
>> demographic even exists, yet everything seems to be done with their
>> best interest as the rationale.
>
> I notice you chopped out the bit of my post where I carefully addressed
> precisely this question.
>
> To summarize (as I see it): yes they exist, no we don't know how many
> there are (and I'd say that's not even important, what matters is
> whether we *want* there to be lots of them or not), and there's no real
> consensus on whether we should care a lot about them or not. This is the
> fundamental problem here.


Sorry about that, I over snipped and under read. The rest of your post
addresses my concerns, or are least highlights the.

I would like to see the project choose a realistic direction and stick
with it. My own intepreation of the general direction is as an
accelerator and enable of FOSS development.

Thank you.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From dr.diesel at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 01:18:29 2009
From: dr.diesel at gmail.com (Dr. Diesel)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:18:29 -0400
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
Message-ID: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>

F11 Preview.i368 with all updates as of 30 minutes ago!  Everytime I visit
www.wthitv.com (with firefox) my computer hard locks with only mouse
movement.  CTRL+ALT+F1 etc do nothing.  I first tried without flash then
also with flash, no difference.

/var/log/messages now only shows output since the most current boot?  No
older data, new behaviour?  Only relevant hardware I can think of would be
the graphics card, Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS/GME, 943/940GML
Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03).

Anyone confirm before I BZ it?



-- 
projecthuh.com
All of my bits are free, are yours?  Fedoraproject.org
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From wtogami at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 01:36:49 2009
From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:36:49 -0400
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F7AF31.20908@redhat.com>

On 04/28/2009 09:18 PM, Dr. Diesel wrote:
> F11 Preview.i368 with all updates as of 30 minutes ago!  Everytime I
> visit www.wthitv.com <http://www.wthitv.com> (with firefox) my computer
> hard locks with only mouse movement.  CTRL+ALT+F1 etc do nothing.  I
> first tried without flash then also with flash, no difference.

Note: CTRL+ALT+F1 should do nothing because you are already on VT1.

>
> /var/log/messages now only shows output since the most current boot?  No
> older data, new behaviour?  Only relevant hardware I can think of would
> be the graphics card, Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS/GME, 943/940GML
> Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03).
>
> Anyone confirm before I BZ it?

Wow, rawhide x86_64 with i945 video here, exactly the same thing 
happened when I tried to load that page.  Everything seems to have 
locked up completely, but I can still move the mouse cursor.  VT switch 
fails.

Warren Togami
wtogami at redhat.com



From dr.diesel at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 01:44:11 2009
From: dr.diesel at gmail.com (Dr. Diesel)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:44:11 -0400
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <49F7AF31.20908@redhat.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F7AF31.20908@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <2a28d2ab0904281844i7a484678p49b8d850876a4927@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Warren Togami <wtogami at redhat.com> wrote:

> On 04/28/2009 09:18 PM, Dr. Diesel wrote:
>
>> F11 Preview.i368 with all updates as of 30 minutes ago!  Everytime I
>> visit www.wthitv.com <http://www.wthitv.com> (with firefox) my computer
>> hard locks with only mouse movement.  CTRL+ALT+F1 etc do nothing.  I
>> first tried without flash then also with flash, no difference.
>>
>
> Note: CTRL+ALT+F1 should do nothing because you are already on VT1.
>
>
>> /var/log/messages now only shows output since the most current boot?  No
>> older data, new behaviour?  Only relevant hardware I can think of would
>> be the graphics card, Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS/GME, 943/940GML
>> Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03).
>>
>> Anyone confirm before I BZ it?
>>
>
> Wow, rawhide x86_64 with i945 video here, exactly the same thing happened
> when I tried to load that page.  Everything seems to have locked up
> completely, but I can still move the mouse cursor.  VT switch fails.
>
> Warren Togami
> wtogami at redhat.com
>


Thanks for confirming.

Wasn't really sure where to file this, since it hard locks I filed it as a
Kernel bug:


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=498131

-- 
projecthuh.com
All of my bits are free, are yours?  Fedoraproject.org
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From sandeen at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 02:29:38 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:29:38 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <gt7vod$rs0$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <gt7vod$rs0$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49F7BB92.4070008@redhat.com>

Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Eric Sandeen wrote:
>> * Come up with some template autoconf magic to make it easy for
>>   apps to detect fallocate() at build time, and some example
>>   code on how to use it
> 
> Shouldn't:
> AC_CHECK_DECLS([fallocate], [], [], [[#include <fcntl.h>]])
> (which defines HAVE_DECL_FALLOCATE) be sufficient?

If you say so :)  I really am no autoconf wizard at all.  If it's that
easy, great!

> In CMake:
> check_symbol_exists(fallocate "fcntl.h" HAVE_DECL_FALLOCATE)
> should achieve the same.
> 
>         Kevin Kofler
> 

I guess I had originaly been thinking that maybe we'd want to test for
posix_fallocate, and whether we had a glibc version that wired it to the
fallocate syscall, etc etc... but really, going forward it's probably
sufficient to just check for fallocate itself, and not worry about the rest.

Thanks,
-Eric



From jreiser at BitWagon.com  Wed Apr 29 03:05:24 2009
From: jreiser at BitWagon.com (John Reiser)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:05:24 -0700
Subject: VGA fried after testing Xorg r128 driver on F11 Preview
Message-ID: <49F7C3F4.5080000@BitWagon.com>

The Xorg r128 driver for X11 graphics has failed to startx for some weeks.
Today I tried again with the Preview DVD for Fedora 11 i386, and got the
same hang.  Upon reboot into previously-working Fedora Core 4, the colors
are wrong: light yellow has become light pink.  The RAMDAC has been fried.
The card is old.  It could be coincidence; but beware.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493653

-- 



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Wed Apr 29 03:16:21 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 05:16:21 +0200
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <gt7vod$rs0$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49F7BB92.4070008@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gt8gq5$qk$1@ger.gmane.org>

Eric Sandeen wrote:
> If you say so :)  I really am no autoconf wizard at all.  If it's that
> easy, great!

Well, I'm not really anywhere near "wizard" level of autoconf, so I can't
promise that that line will actually work (I haven't tested it)...

        Kevin Kofler



From fedora at ml.shredzone.de  Wed Apr 29 05:55:42 2009
From: fedora at ml.shredzone.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Richard_K=F6rber?=)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 07:55:42 +0200
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>

Hi!

> F11 Preview.i368 with all updates as of 30 minutes ago!  Everytime I
> visit www.wthitv.com <http://www.wthitv.com> (with firefox) my computer
> hard locks with only mouse movement.

This sounds like the infamous "EQ Overflowing" bug:

   https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=465884

Can you have a look at your Xorg log when the system crashed again? You should 
still be able to log into your system by network.

This would be bad news. I was hoping this bug was finally fixed in F11.

-- 
Regards,
Richard "Shred" K?rber



From rc040203 at freenet.de  Wed Apr 29 05:58:25 2009
From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 07:58:25 +0200
Subject: preupgrade FC10->rawhide fails
Message-ID: <49F7EC81.4070809@freenet.de>

Hi,

preupgrading FC10->rawhide fails with

rpmdb: Program version 4.7 doesn't match environment version 4.5
error: db4 error(-30971) from dbenv->open: DB_VERSION_MISMATCH ...
...

Seems to me as if FC11 isn't quite ready for release :(

Ralf



From rodd at clarkson.id.au  Wed Apr 29 06:58:37 2009
From: rodd at clarkson.id.au (Rodd Clarkson)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:58:37 +1000
Subject: GConf changes in F12
In-Reply-To: <1240962427.2770.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gt82f2$2ob$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240962427.2770.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1240988317.4309.15.camel@moose>

On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 19:47 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 01:11 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > > Previously, translations were merged by intltool from .po files into
> > > schemas files and then copied by gconftool from the schemas file into
> > > the database.
> > 
> > Is that what caused the insanely-sized .xml files in libgweather? Or is that
> > a separate issue?
> 
> No, the xml files in libgweather are just big on their own, no GConf
> involved.

I'm guessing this has to do with all the international data in
libgweather.

Is it possible to build this (like we do for openoffice.org with it's
language packs) so that you only grab the locations you need? And
assuming your interested in the weather in some location your not, could
you automate the downloading of the location required?


R.
-- 
"It's a fine line between denial and faith.
 It's much better on my side"



From jdieter at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 06:47:21 2009
From: jdieter at gmail.com (Jonathan Dieter)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:47:21 +0300
Subject: F11 Beta->Preview deltaiso available
Message-ID: <1240987641.9442.12.camel@jdlaptop.lesbg.loc>

There a deltaiso (824MB) for F11 Beta->Preview available at:
http://lesloueizeh.com/devel/i386/Fedora-11-Beta_Preview-i386-DVD.diso

You need to have an iso image of Fedora 11 Beta on your system and
deltarpm installed.

To get Fedora-11-Preview-i386-DVD.iso, run the command:
applydeltaiso Fedora-11-Beta-i386-DVD.iso
Fedora-11-Beta_Preview-i386-DVD.diso Fedora-11-Preview-i386-DVD.iso

Jonathan
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From fedora at camperquake.de  Wed Apr 29 07:26:03 2009
From: fedora at camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:26:03 +0200
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090429092603.74fa373a@dhcp03.addix.net>

Hi.

On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:18:29 -0400, Dr. Diesel wrote:

> F11 Preview.i368 with all updates as of 30 minutes ago!  Everytime I
> visit www.wthitv.com (with firefox) my computer hard locks with only
> mouse movement.  CTRL+ALT+F1 etc do nothing.  I first tried without
> flash then also with flash, no difference.

I've seen something similar, with firefox locking the system this way,
but I can only trigger it when using two screens, for whatever reason.

Intel GM945.

Does it go away if you disable KMS?



From andre at bwh.harvard.edu  Wed Apr 29 07:26:58 2009
From: andre at bwh.harvard.edu (Andre Robatino)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 03:26:58 -0400
Subject: F11 Beta->Preview deltaiso available
Message-ID: <49F80142.5090507@bwh.harvard.edu>

It's also possible to use /dev/dvd in place of the input ISO argument, 
if one has the Beta on a mounted DVD, as in

applydeltaiso /dev/dvd Fedora-11-Beta_Preview-i386-DVD.diso 
Fedora-11-Preview-i386-DVD.iso
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From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro  Wed Apr 29 07:35:21 2009
From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:35:21 +0300
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F80339.8020406@nicubunu.ro>

On 04/29/2009 04:18 AM, Dr. Diesel wrote:
> F11 Preview.i368 with all updates as of 30 minutes ago!  Everytime I
> visit www.wthitv.com <http://www.wthitv.com> (with firefox) my computer
> hard locks with only mouse movement.  CTRL+ALT+F1 etc do nothing.  I
> first tried without flash then also with flash, no difference.

Not sure if this is related, I get a similar hard lock when trying to 
play any kind of video file (Ogg Theora, DivX) on any player (Totem, 
VLC, Mplayer, the Totem plugin in Firefox) with only two exceptions:
- flash videos in the browser;
- Ogg Theora videos in Firefox (probably using the build in Theora decoder)

> /var/log/messages now only shows output since the most current boot?  No
> older data, new behaviour?  Only relevant hardware I can think of would
> be the graphics card, Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS/GME, 943/940GML
> Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03).

I have an Intel 82G965.

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr 29 07:41:45 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:11:45 +0530
Subject: preupgrade FC10->rawhide fails
In-Reply-To: <49F7EC81.4070809@freenet.de>
References: <49F7EC81.4070809@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <49F804B9.90000@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/29/2009 11:28 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> preupgrading FC10->rawhide fails with
> 
> rpmdb: Program version 4.7 doesn't match environment version 4.5
> error: db4 error(-30971) from dbenv->open: DB_VERSION_MISMATCH ...
> ...
> 
> Seems to me as if FC11 isn't quite ready for release :(

You can do the usual rpm db recovery to work around this. I had filed

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=498157

Rahul



From mail at robertoragusa.it  Wed Apr 29 07:48:52 2009
From: mail at robertoragusa.it (Roberto Ragusa)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:48:52 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
Message-ID: <49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>

Frank Schmitt wrote:
> [screen-  Gnome: A desktop environment that tries hard to enforce
>  shot     consistent, accessible and coherent user interfaces. By
>  default  default the list of running applications and the main menu
>  desktop] items are split into two panels.
> 
> 
> [screen-  KDE: A desktop environment that gives its users more
>  shot     possibilities to adapt the environment to specific needs. In
>  default  KDE 4, panels and desktop are just different instances of a
>  desktop] common framework, allowing to move applets between panels and
>           the desktop.

GNOME: if your VCR is blinking 12:00
KDE: if you are sad that your TV has only 6 A/V inputs

:-)

Joking aside, GNOME people and KDE people could try to describe
their environment themselves.

It *is* possible to do it in two lines:

GNOME: consistent and easy to use, even for new users
KDE: very configurable, for users who like personalization

well, I did it in just one line...

-- 
   Roberto Ragusa    mail at robertoragusa.it



From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro  Wed Apr 29 08:09:45 2009
From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:09:45 +0300
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <gt7ri3$e7i$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>	<1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<49F71D1E.30206@redhat.com> <gt7ri3$e7i$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49F80B49.6060601@nicubunu.ro>

On 04/29/2009 12:13 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Casey Dahlin wrote:
>> The /right/ way is to make the KDE spin a first-class product, released at
>> the same time as the "main" release
>
> That's already the case.
>
>> and given equal billing on the website.
>
> This is where things start being a problem: the GNOME spin is described as
> just "Desktop Edition" and offered directly on the download page, the KDE
> spin is hidden behind a "KDE fans. go here!" button and labeled "KDE
> Desktop Edition".

I think the things start being a problem when the maintainers of the 
"default desktop" are *consistently* making decision which are 
considered bad by a large part of the community, thus rendering that 
spin unworthy of the "default" label.

Is their right to do whatever they like in their spin but is also the 
other's right to not like it.

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/



From drago01 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 11:13:29 2009
From: drago01 at gmail.com (drago01)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:13:29 +0200
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F7226D.6060101@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6F590.6050506@redhat.com>
	<49F70AD1.7040803@redhat.com> <49F720B8.9010905@cchtml.com>
	<49F7226D.6060101@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0904290413t206e6127qae61a0a32e9c369e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com> wrote:
> Michael Cronenworth wrote:
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
>> From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
>> To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
>> Date: 04/28/2009 08:55 AM
>>
>>> Florian Festi wrote:
>>>> Eric Sandeen wrote:
>>>>> ? - rpm? (file installation and/or db files?)
>>>> The rpmdb is a bunch of db4 files. In don't think I want to interfere with
>>>> the db4 engine...
>>> They're often badly fragmented, too :) ?But whether or not that matters
>>> much for rpm performance, I dunno.
>>>
>>> [root at host ~]# filefrag /var/lib/rpm/Packages
>>> /var/lib/rpm/Packages: 844 extents found, perfection would be 1 extent
>>> [root at host ~]# ls -lh /var/lib/rpm/Packages
>>> -rw-r--r-- 1 rpm rpm 52M Apr 27 15:40 /var/lib/rpm/Packages
>>
>>
>> Somehow XFS is doing a much better job. This is from a four year old system:
>>
>> $ sudo filefrag /var/lib/rpm/Packages
>> /var/lib/rpm/Packages: 2 extents found
>> $ ls -lh /var/lib/rpm/Packages
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 rpm rpm 88M 2009-04-28 10:18 /var/lib/rpm/Packages
>
> on my xfs root systems I still have hundreds of extents for this file.
> Do you have xfs_fsr in a cron job?

well here (F10, ext4):

filefrag /var/lib/rpm/Packages
/var/lib/rpm/Packages: 8 extents found
du -hs /var/lib/rpm/Packages
52M	/var/lib/rpm/Packages

What did you do to get 800+ ?

(I did a db rebuild a while ago that might have changed / improved it)



From hk at isphuset.no  Wed Apr 29 11:26:49 2009
From: hk at isphuset.no (Hans Kristian Rosbach)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:26:49 +0200
Subject: FC10 -> Rawhide yum upgrade report (with minor problems)
Message-ID: <1241004409.2715.28.camel@hk>

I just completed the FC10 to rawhide upgrade an hour ago
and it did complete successfully. This installation was
previously a FC9 that was upgraded to FC10 in the same way.
FC10 packages were updated prior to the rawhide upgrade.

Although in retrospect I should not have done that from
within a console window in X. At about 20% during the
update, fontconfig (I think it was atlest) segfaulted and
caused X to restart, leaving the yum update incomplete.

However, yum-complete-transaction did manage to finish the
update although it was incredibly slow.

I changed fstab to enable one of my ext3 filesystems to
be mounted using ext4, and that seems to work fine. I have
not converted the filesystem to enable remaining ext4 features.

All in all, I see this as a successful upgrade (though I would not
recommend the method to anyone who are not able to fix potential
errors that would occur).

Rawhide seems stable and fast from what I have seen so far, and I
look forward to the FC11 release.


Minor annoyances:
 -Keyboard settings have been reset to USA instead of NO
 -Sound theme was enabled


Some (new) messages from dmesg:
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_intel.c:1101: Too big adjustment 32
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_intel.c:1101: Too big adjustment 32
(.. repeated ~40 times)
hda-intel: IRQ timing workaround is activated for card #1. Suggest a
bigger bdl_pos_adj.


The kernel seems to think the mtrr is different than before, though
I do not know whether this is ok or not.
# cat /proc/mtrr 
reg00: base=0x000000000 (    0MB), size= 2048MB, count=1: write-back
reg01: base=0x080000000 ( 2048MB), size= 1024MB, count=1: write-back
reg02: base=0x0c0000000 ( 3072MB), size=  256MB, count=1: write-back
reg03: base=0x0cfe00000 ( 3326MB), size=    2MB, count=1: uncachable

Whereas I have 8GB of ram, and it previously had more entries. Will
this result in worse performance when utilizing memory above the first
~3GB?

from dmesg:
original variable MTRRs
reg 0, base: 0GB, range: 2GB, type WB
reg 1, base: 2GB, range: 1GB, type WB
reg 2, base: 3GB, range: 256MB, type WB
reg 3, base: 3326MB, range: 2MB, type UC
reg 4, base: 4GB, range: 4GB, type WB
reg 5, base: 8GB, range: 512MB, type WB
reg 6, base: 8704MB, range: 256MB, type WB
total RAM coverred: 3326M
Found optimal setting for mtrr clean up
 gran_size: 64K 	chunk_size: 4M 	num_reg: 4  	lose cover RAM: 0G
New variable MTRRs
reg 0, base: 0GB, range: 2GB, type WB
reg 1, base: 2GB, range: 1GB, type WB
reg 2, base: 3GB, range: 256MB, type WB
reg 3, base: 3326MB, range: 2MB, type UC




Finally, my lspci output in case someone wanted to know:
(Gigabyte MA790GP-DS4H motherboard)
00:00.0 Host bridge [0600]: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] RS780 Host
Bridge [1022:9600]
00:02.0 PCI bridge [0604]: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] RS780 PCI to PCI
bridge (ext gfx port 0) [1022:9603]
00:0a.0 PCI bridge [0604]: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] RS780 PCI to PCI
bridge (PCIE port 5) [1022:9609]
00:11.0 SATA controller [0106]: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 SATA
Controller [AHCI mode] [1002:4391]
00:12.0 USB Controller [0c03]: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 USB
OHCI0 Controller [1002:4397]
00:12.1 USB Controller [0c03]: ATI Technologies Inc SB700 USB OHCI1
Controller [1002:4398]
00:12.2 USB Controller [0c03]: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 USB EHCI
Controller [1002:4396]
00:13.0 USB Controller [0c03]: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 USB
OHCI0 Controller [1002:4397]
00:13.1 USB Controller [0c03]: ATI Technologies Inc SB700 USB OHCI1
Controller [1002:4398]
00:13.2 USB Controller [0c03]: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 USB EHCI
Controller [1002:4396]
00:14.0 SMBus [0c05]: ATI Technologies Inc SBx00 SMBus Controller
[1002:4385] (rev 3a)
00:14.1 IDE interface [0101]: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 IDE
Controller [1002:439c]
00:14.2 Audio device [0403]: ATI Technologies Inc SBx00 Azalia (Intel
HDA) [1002:4383]
00:14.3 ISA bridge [0601]: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 LPC host
controller [1002:439d]
00:14.4 PCI bridge [0604]: ATI Technologies Inc SBx00 PCI to PCI Bridge
[1002:4384]
00:14.5 USB Controller [0c03]: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 USB
OHCI2 Controller [1002:4399]
00:18.0 Host bridge [0600]: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 10h
[Opteron, Athlon64, Sempron] HyperTransport Configuration [1022:1200]
00:18.1 Host bridge [0600]: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 10h
[Opteron, Athlon64, Sempron] Address Map [1022:1201]
00:18.2 Host bridge [0600]: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 10h
[Opteron, Athlon64, Sempron] DRAM Controller [1022:1202]
00:18.3 Host bridge [0600]: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 10h
[Opteron, Athlon64, Sempron] Miscellaneous Control [1022:1203]
00:18.4 Host bridge [0600]: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 10h
[Opteron, Athlon64, Sempron] Link Control [1022:1204]
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: ATI Technologies Inc Mobility
Radeon HD 3600 Series [1002:9598]
01:00.1 Audio device [0403]: ATI Technologies Inc RV635 Audio device
[Radeon HD 3600 Series] [1002:aa20]
02:00.0 Ethernet controller [0200]: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd.
RTL8111/8168B PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet controller [10ec:8168] (rev
02)
03:0e.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394) [0c00]: Texas Instruments TSB43AB23
IEEE-1394a-2000 Controller (PHY/Link) [104c:8024]


Sincerly
  Hans K. Rosbach



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr 29 12:32:34 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 08:32:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FC10 -> Rawhide yum upgrade report (with minor problems)
In-Reply-To: <1241004409.2715.28.camel@hk>
References: <1241004409.2715.28.camel@hk>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904290830140.28461@localhost.localdomain>



On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Hans Kristian Rosbach wrote:

> I just completed the FC10 to rawhide upgrade an hour ago
> and it did complete successfully. This installation was
> previously a FC9 that was upgraded to FC10 in the same way.
> FC10 packages were updated prior to the rawhide upgrade.
>
> Although in retrospect I should not have done that from
> within a console window in X. At about 20% during the
> update, fontconfig (I think it was atlest) segfaulted and
> caused X to restart, leaving the yum update incomplete.
>

that would be this bug:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=494046

and I believe it MUST be fixed before F11 is released or we'll have a lot 
more folks in the same spot as you were.

-sv



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 12:41:44 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:41:44 +0100
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <gt72a0$c7m$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904271327.38330.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<gt72a0$c7m$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200904291341.44505.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 28 April 2009 15:02:40 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Bill Crawford wrote:
> > s/KDE/KDE3.5/ ;o)
>
> No. KDE 3.5 is obsolete, no longer gets any upstream releases and is no
> longer supported in Fedora. 4.2 is the way to go.

I know, but KDE4 was heading in the same direction as GNOME, at least to begin 
with; the "old" features seem to have begun reappearing. It was meant as humour 
and as such should be swallowed with a handful of sodium chloride.



From ffesti at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 12:44:00 2009
From: ffesti at redhat.com (Florian Festi)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:44:00 +0200
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F72A6B.8060602@cchtml.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>	<49F6F590.6050506@redhat.com>	<49F70AD1.7040803@redhat.com>	<49F720B8.9010905@cchtml.com>	<49F7226D.6060101@redhat.com>
	<49F72A6B.8060602@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <49F84B90.2090105@redhat.com>

Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
> From: Eric Sandeen <sandeen at redhat.com>
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora 
> <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Date: 04/28/2009 10:36 AM
> 
>>
>> on my xfs root systems I still have hundreds of extents for this file.
>> Do you have xfs_fsr in a cron job?
>>
>> -Eric
>>
> 
> Here's a more accurate test. This is from another multi-year old system, 
> but this time xfs_fsr has never been run. It's currently on F9. 
> Originally F7 IIRC.
> 
> $ sudo filefrag /var/lib/rpm/Packages
> /var/lib/rpm/Packages: 325 extents found
> $ ll -h /var/lib/rpm/Packages
> -rw-r--r-- 1 rpm rpm 37M 2009-04-13 00:21 /var/lib/rpm/Packages
> $ df -h
> Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
> /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00
>                       297G   79G  219G  27% /
> 

The reason for this is quite obvious: RPM does first install the files of a 
package to disk and then update the rpmdb. This is repeated for each package 
to keep the rpmdb as close to the file system as possible. This means that 
the rpmdb grows for each package installed while there are other files 
written to disk in between.

Of course rebuilding the rpmdb fixes the fragmentation.

So, yes, rpmdb is a good candidate for further tweaking - possibly with pre 
allocation (nevertheless tweaking the db4 settings is prior on my list).

So another question: Is there a way to free no longer needed preallocated 
disk space again?

Florian



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 29 13:12:53 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:12:53 +0800
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <1240964482.2656.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>	<200904251714.07573.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>	<6d959d480904250934h1fb12465ue60b55866d4a188c@mail.gmail.com>	<200904271329.04618.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>	<gt4i0e$ofu$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<49F5E241.2030603@cchtml.com>	<gt4rqc$t27$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240964482.2656.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F85255.3090708@hidayahonline.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 04/29/2009 08:21 AM, Callum Lerwick wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 13:59 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote:
>>> Subject: Re: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a 
>> modest (productive) 
>>> proposal
>>> From: Ben Boeckel <MathStuf at gmail.com>
>>> To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
>>> Date: 04/27/2009 10:12 AM
>>>
>>>> I've had X lock up or temporarily freeze and 
>> kaffeine 
>>>> (playing through PA via xine) still plays. The only 
>> way 
>>>> I've been able to get it to skip is to force 
>> basically 
>>>> everything into swap with programs that take up 3+GB 
>> of 
>>>> RAM (making markov chains from big.txt takes...quite 
>> a 
>>>> bit in duck-typed languages). Maybe it's the dual 
>> core 
>>>> 3.0GHz, but I've found it hard to skip apps using 
>> PA. 
>>>> PA is taking 0% CPU and kaffeine jumps to 1% playing 
>>>> flac files. Also, PA hasn't even jumped towards the 
>> top 
>>>> of usage at all in the past few minutes.
>>>
>>> That's amazing, because I have a 3ghz dual core and 
>> PA takes ~10% CPU to 
>>> play FLAC from Rhythmbox and can skip if I'm doing a 
>> lot of work - say 
>>> ffmpeg transcoding and moving files. Intel HD audio 
>> (yes, generic) 
>>> Analog Devices chip.
>>>
>> Maybe its a difference between xine and gstreamer?
>>
>> % lspci | grep -i audio
>> 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801JI (ICH10 
>> Family) HD Audio Controller
> 
> Check your logs. This is quite possibly the difference between "My
> hardware does 44.1khz natively" and "My hardware only does 48000khz and
> playing anything but a DVD requires resampling". Later Intel chipsets
> all seem to be the latter.
> 
Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I also have a huge
CPU hit on my 4+ year old laptop, and I am sure that it handles
different sampling rates without much difficulty.

So, my question is, what logs can I check to find out if this is
happening (if I understood the message correctly)?
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=7CR8
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From sandeen at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 13:18:42 2009
From: sandeen at redhat.com (Eric Sandeen)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 08:18:42 -0500
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F84B90.2090105@redhat.com>
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com>	<49F6F590.6050506@redhat.com>	<49F70AD1.7040803@redhat.com>	<49F720B8.9010905@cchtml.com>	<49F7226D.6060101@redhat.com>	<49F72A6B.8060602@cchtml.com>
	<49F84B90.2090105@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F853B2.6070502@redhat.com>

Florian Festi wrote:

> So another question: Is there a way to free no longer needed preallocated 
> disk space again?

Yes, as long as you free it off the end - a truncate will do it.  There
is currently no generic way to free space from the middle of a file, though.

-Eric



From selinux at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 13:26:14 2009
From: selinux at gmail.com (Tom London)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 06:26:14 -0700
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <20090429092603.74fa373a@dhcp03.addix.net>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090429092603.74fa373a@dhcp03.addix.net>
Message-ID: <4c4ba1530904290626y72e7ad12w357bb5073eae5c48@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:26 AM, Ralf Ertzinger <fedora at camperquake.de> wrote:
> Hi.
>
> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:18:29 -0400, Dr. Diesel wrote:
>
>> F11 Preview.i368 with all updates as of 30 minutes ago! ?Everytime I
>> visit www.wthitv.com (with firefox) my computer hard locks with only
>> mouse movement. ?CTRL+ALT+F1 etc do nothing. ?I first tried without
>> flash then also with flash, no difference.
>
> I've seen something similar, with firefox locking the system this way,
> but I can only trigger it when using two screens, for whatever reason.
>
> Intel GM945.
>
> Does it go away if you disable KMS?
>
I'm running ThinkPad X200 with latest updates:
Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics
Controller (rev 07)

Running with KMS disabled and with "nopat", I do not get freeze
firefox-ing to that site (with our without NoScript, with x86_64 flash
plugin).  I add "nomodeset nopat" to boot line.

I do see this at the end of  /var/log/Xorg.0/log:

(II) intel(0): Modeline "640x400"x85.1   31.50  640 672 736 832  400
401 404 445 -hsync +vsync (37.9 kHz)
(II) intel(0): Modeline "640x350"x85.1   31.50  640 672 736 832  350
382 385 445 +hsync -vsync (37.9 kHz)
(II) intel(0): EDID for output HDMI-1
(II) intel(0): EDID for output HDMI-2
exaCopyDirty: Pending damage region empty!

Not sure its relevant.

My @home monitor does not support KMS; I'll retest with my "KMS
approved" monitor @work.

tom
-- 
Tom London



From benny+usenet at amorsen.dk  Wed Apr 29 13:53:39 2009
From: benny+usenet at amorsen.dk (Benny Amorsen)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:53:39 +0200
Subject: Things to do this week instead of arguing about mixers
In-Reply-To: <49F84B90.2090105@redhat.com> (Florian Festi's message of "Wed\,
	29 Apr 2009 14\:44\:00 +0200")
References: <49F60312.8060709@redhat.com> <49F6F590.6050506@redhat.com>
	<49F70AD1.7040803@redhat.com> <49F720B8.9010905@cchtml.com>
	<49F7226D.6060101@redhat.com> <49F72A6B.8060602@cchtml.com>
	<49F84B90.2090105@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <m3vdon36sc.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>

Florian Festi <ffesti at redhat.com> writes:

> Of course rebuilding the rpmdb fixes the fragmentation.

I wish:

[root at terpsichore ~]# filefrag /var/lib/rpm/*
[..]
/var/lib/rpm/Packages: 177 extents found, perfection would be 1 extent
[..]
[root at terpsichore ~]# rpm --rebuilddb
[root at terpsichore ~]# filefrag /var/lib/rpm/*
/var/lib/rpm/Packages: 321 extents found, perfection would be 1 extent

This is on F10 ext3.


/Benny



From benny+usenet at amorsen.dk  Wed Apr 29 13:57:35 2009
From: benny+usenet at amorsen.dk (Benny Amorsen)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:57:35 +0200
Subject: The Great Pulseaudio Mixer Debate: a modest (productive)
	proposal
In-Reply-To: <49F85255.3090708@hidayahonline.org> (Basil Mohamed Gohar's
	message of "Wed\, 29 Apr 2009 21\:12\:53 +0800")
References: <1240596206.3955.245.camel@adam.local.net>
	<200904251714.07573.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<6d959d480904250934h1fb12465ue60b55866d4a188c@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904271329.04618.billcrawford1970@gmail.com>
	<gt4i0e$ofu$1@ger.gmane.org> <49F5E241.2030603@cchtml.com>
	<gt4rqc$t27$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240964482.2656.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F85255.3090708@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <m3r5zb36ls.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>

Basil Mohamed Gohar <abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org> writes:

> Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I also have a huge
> CPU hit on my 4+ year old laptop, and I am sure that it handles
> different sampling rates without much difficulty.

Try setting resample-method = trivial in /etc/pulse/daemon.conf. It will
sound fairly bad, but it will at least prove whether resampling is a
problem. When it doesn't help, file a bug.


/Benny



From benny+usenet at amorsen.dk  Wed Apr 29 14:02:10 2009
From: benny+usenet at amorsen.dk (Benny Amorsen)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:02:10 +0200
Subject: GConf changes in F12
In-Reply-To: <1240988317.4309.15.camel@moose> (Rodd Clarkson's message of
	"Wed\, 29 Apr 2009 16\:58\:37 +1000")
References: <1240942944.2770.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<gt82f2$2ob$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240962427.2770.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240988317.4309.15.camel@moose>
Message-ID: <m3my9z36e5.fsf@ursa.amorsen.dk>

Rodd Clarkson <rodd at clarkson.id.au> writes:

> Is it possible to build this (like we do for openoffice.org with it's
> language packs) so that you only grab the locations you need? And
> assuming your interested in the weather in some location your not, could
> you automate the downloading of the location required?

Or gweather could just switch to a sane format and have all of it as one
100kB file.


/Benny



From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 14:28:59 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:28:59 -0400
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>
Message-ID: <1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 07:55 +0200, Richard K?rber wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> > F11 Preview.i368 with all updates as of 30 minutes ago!  Everytime I
> > visit www.wthitv.com <http://www.wthitv.com> (with firefox) my computer
> > hard locks with only mouse movement.
> 
> This sounds like the infamous "EQ Overflowing" bug:
>
>    https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=465884

"EQ overflowing" is not a bug, dang it.  It's a symptom.

Input events are handled in two places in X.  A signal handler reads the
events from the kernel, updates the cursor position, and adds the event
to the queue; and then the main loop drains the event queue, sending
events to clients and possibly updating the cursor image (say, if it
changes from an arrow to a text bar).  Since you can't malloc from
signal handlers, the event queue is some fixed (but large) size.

If you run out of space in the event queue, it's because the server is
stuck somewhere away from the main loop.  But that's not any one
specific place, that's the entire rest of the X server.  You could be
waiting for the hardware to go idle.  You could be waiting to acquire
the DRI lock (in DRI1).  You could be trying to do some kernel request
that the kernel is taking its sweet time to get around to.  _Anything_.
So "EQ overflowing" is not any one particular bug, it's a symptom of
many different bugs.

In this particular case, it's something much more lame:

(gdb) bt
#0  0x00de3f73 in pixmanBltsse2 (src_bits=0xa8587000,
dst_bits=0xa0587000, src_stride=1408, dst_stride=1408, src_bpp=32, 
    dst_bpp=32, src_x=0, src_y=0, dst_x=0, dst_y=0, width=1299,
height=15000) at pixman-sse2.c:4530
#1  0x00dd95ba in pixman_blt (src_bits=0xa8587000, dst_bits=0xa0587000,
src_stride=1408, dst_stride=1408, src_bpp=32, 
    dst_bpp=32, src_x=0, src_y=0, dst_x=0, dst_y=0, width=1299,
height=15000) at pixman-utils.c:51
#2  0x00ef440a in fbCopyNtoN (pSrcDrawable=0x136b7530,
pDstDrawable=0x1351e660, pGC=0x13409748, pbox=DWARF-2 expression error:
DW_OP_reg operations must be used either alone or in conjuction with
DW_OP_piece.
) at fbcopy.c:64
#3  0x002f0cc6 in uxa_copy_n_to_n ()
from /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers//intel_drv.so
#4  0x00ef344b in fbCopyRegion (pSrcDrawable=0x136b7530,
pDstDrawable=0x1351e660, pGC=0x13409748, pDstRegion=0xbf983b04, 
    dx=0, dy=0, copyProc=0x2f0570 <uxa_copy_n_to_n>, bitPlane=0,
closure=0x0) at fbcopy.c:396
#5  0x00ef396d in fbDoCopy (pSrcDrawable=0x136b7530,
pDstDrawable=0x1351e660, pGC=0x13409748, xIn=0, yIn=0, widthSrc=1299, 
    heightSrc=15000, xOut=0, yOut=0, copyProc=0x2f0570
<uxa_copy_n_to_n>, bitPlane=0, closure=0x0) at fbcopy.c:596
#6  0x002f0518 in uxa_copy_area ()
from /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers//intel_drv.so
#7  0x0817a753 in damageCopyArea (pSrc=0x136b7530, pDst=0x1351e660,
pGC=0x13409748, srcx=0, srcy=0, width=1299, 
    height=15000, dstx=0, dsty=0) at damage.c:949
#8  0x08084b45 in ProcCopyArea (client=0xf205018) at dispatch.c:1555
#9  0x08086807 in Dispatch () at dispatch.c:437

Check out frame 0 [1].  The server is being asked to do a blit that's
15000 pixels tall.  Who knows why, it could easily be a bug in firefox,
but it could also be something the web page really did ask for.  At any
rate, the server's been asked to do it, so we really have no choice but
to do it.  Problem is your GPU can't accelerate that blit; even really
nice ones like R700 have a blit coordinate limit of like 8192 pixels.
So we fall back to software, which is the pixman bits in the backtrace.

Now the subtle bit is that, okay, yeah, it's a huge blit, but it's also
only like 75M of data.  You have giganoms [2] of memory bandwidth, this
should take milliseconds, not minutes.  So what's almost certainly gone
wrong here is that the kernel is giving us a bad caching policy on the
map of video memory, so all those reads have to go out to the bus every
time.  So you're not actually hardlocked.  You're just doing something
very slow, a few billion times.

I've been chasing this bug all week.  Hopefully it'll be fixed soon?

[1] - Also check out frame #2.  Yeah baby, X is so hardcore it breaks
gdb's DWARF decoder.  Bug #497425.

[2] - One nom being one byte per second, of course.  Om nom nom.

- ajax
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From bruno at wolff.to  Wed Apr 29 14:30:02 2009
From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:30:02 -0500
Subject: Ext4 FAQ
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904281041u65f03035xef4608cbd034103d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F726BC.7050508@fedoraproject.org>
	<16de708d0904281041u65f03035xef4608cbd034103d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090429143002.GA14744@wolff.to>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:41:19 -0500,
  Arthur Pemberton <pemboa at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Not exactly a devel question, but Fedora is getting a lot of flac in
> the "media" for it's defaulting to EXT4, is there any planned rebuttal
> response by the Fedora Project overlords?

Where are you seeing that? So far I have only seen defaulting to ext4 described
in a neutral or positive way.



From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 14:31:06 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:31:06 -0400
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <4c4ba1530904290626y72e7ad12w357bb5073eae5c48@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090429092603.74fa373a@dhcp03.addix.net>
	<4c4ba1530904290626y72e7ad12w357bb5073eae5c48@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1241015466.18324.170.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 06:26 -0700, Tom London wrote:

> My @home monitor does not support KMS; I'll retest with my "KMS
> approved" monitor @work.

Can you clarify this statement?  The monitor really shouldn't factor
into whether KMS works or not.  Admittedly there's been some bugs with
the I2C code in the kernel (turns out KMS is the first serious user of
it, who knew), but X's mode selection logic is independent of who does
I2C.

- ajax
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From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 14:32:23 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:32:23 -0400
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <49F80339.8020406@nicubunu.ro>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F80339.8020406@nicubunu.ro>
Message-ID: <1241015543.18324.172.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:35 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 04/29/2009 04:18 AM, Dr. Diesel wrote:
> > F11 Preview.i368 with all updates as of 30 minutes ago!  Everytime I
> > visit www.wthitv.com <http://www.wthitv.com> (with firefox) my computer
> > hard locks with only mouse movement.  CTRL+ALT+F1 etc do nothing.  I
> > first tried without flash then also with flash, no difference.
> 
> Not sure if this is related, I get a similar hard lock when trying to 
> play any kind of video file (Ogg Theora, DivX) on any player (Totem, 
> VLC, Mplayer, the Totem plugin in Firefox) with only two exceptions:
> - flash videos in the browser;
> - Ogg Theora videos in Firefox (probably using the build in Theora decoder)

Almost certainly not related.

- ajax
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From walters at verbum.org  Wed Apr 29 14:36:34 2009
From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:36:34 -0400
Subject: Static system level uid/gid's reservations in Fedora/RHEL - how
	to handle situation?
In-Reply-To: <1240902265.3858.11.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com>
References: <1240902265.3858.11.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <faa16b610904290736s17b7c31fod66bca80ea26dc57@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/28 Ond?ej Va??k <ovasik at redhat.com>:
> Hello,
> at the moment static system level uid/gid's are handled by setup package
> and /usr/share/doc/setup-*/uidgid file. There is threshold of system
> uid/gid's - it's uid/gid 100. Another way to reserve "static" uid/gid
> reservation is http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageUserRegistry ...
> usable only for Fedora and only semi-static (as base id could be easily
> changed).
> As we are running out of the free uid/gid's in uidgid reservation file
> (no free gid's in fact at the moment), it has to be solved somehow...
> there are quite often requests for uidgid reservations as it increases
> security in many cases...

> What's the best way to handle that situation? One possibility is to
> increase the threshold of system level id's (to 200? 300?), another is
> to check current reservation and clean long-term unused reservations (I
> doubt there are many such cases, so it's only temporary solution). Other
> could be sharing groups (as static uid's are still available), but
> that's not always good solution.

One long term solution is to replace (or rather back up) the uid/gid
integer system with uuids.  This also helps with other problems like
Windows interop.

Here's a blog post about a change Solaris made in this respect:
http://blogs.sun.com/nico/entry/dealing_with_windows_sids_in
Mailing list thread in NFSv4 context:
http://www.nfsv4.org/nfsv4-wg-archive-dec-96-jan-03/1440.html

I'm sure there's other stuff out there.

Another thing to consider would be relying on SELinux domains for new
daemons, just give them e.g the "daemon" uid.



From mark.bidewell at alumni.clemson.edu  Wed Apr 29 15:12:42 2009
From: mark.bidewell at alumni.clemson.edu (Mark Bidewell)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:12:42 -0400
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
Message-ID: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>

When I installed F11 preview.  Network manager configured my eth0 to never
be activiated automatically.  Since this was the only NIC on the system the
result was no network.  Easily fixable but not user friendly.  I use KDE so
I am not sure if this goes against network manager or knetworkmanager.  Any
thoughts?

-- 
Mark Bidewell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/markbidewell
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From walters at verbum.org  Wed Apr 29 15:13:36 2009
From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:13:36 -0400
Subject: Static system level uid/gid's reservations in Fedora/RHEL - how
	to handle situation?
In-Reply-To: <1240902265.3858.11.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com>
References: <1240902265.3858.11.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <faa16b610904290813r3640aefcl74a4abc04fc740ac@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/28 Ond?ej Va??k <ovasik at redhat.com>:
>
> Any other idea or some prefered solution?

Another idea (not exclusive with the uuid approach) is to have a
global system flag somewhere in /etc which lets admins make the
tradeoff between:

* Compatibility with previous releases, large uid space for their own
use, many system daemons will get dynamic uids installed
* Large system uid space, incompatible assignment with earlier releases

Basically if you pick the first option, then when some new daemon not
in the static list is installed it gets "adduser" dynamically (and the
files have to be chowned, needs RPM level work most likely to not
break -V etc.).

This approach requires a "flag day" where we bump the system uid space
of course.

Oh regardless of anything else, one thing SSSD or whatever really
should add is something to distinguish between a uid for some system
service and a uid intended for an actual human (the heuristic of
having a $HOME be in /home is kinda ugly).



From notting at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 15:30:48 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:30:48 -0400
Subject: Static system level uid/gid's reservations in Fedora/RHEL -
	how to handle situation?
In-Reply-To: <1240902265.3858.11.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com>
References: <1240902265.3858.11.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090429153048.GC4323@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Ond?ej Va??k (ovasik at redhat.com) said: 
> What's the best way to handle that situation? One possibility is to
> increase the threshold of system level id's (to 200? 300?), another is
> to check current reservation and clean long-term unused reservations (I
> doubt there are many such cases, so it's only temporary solution). Other
> could be sharing groups (as static uid's are still available), but
> that's not always good solution.
> 
> Any other idea or some prefered solution?

Simplest way is to bump the lowest number that's used for system IDs;
that may run into some collisions on older systems, though.

Bill



From fedora at ml.shredzone.de  Wed Apr 29 15:43:04 2009
From: fedora at ml.shredzone.de (=?UTF-8?B?UmljaGFyZCBLw7ZyYmVy?=)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:43:04 +0200
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>	<49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>
	<1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49F87588.5070308@ml.shredzone.de>

Adam,

> "EQ overflowing" is not a bug, dang it.  It's a symptom.
> [...]

Thank you for the detailed explanation!

I, for one, wasn't aware of that because I know next to nothing about 
the internas of the X server. Counting the number of comments on that 
bug, I guess I wasn't the only one though. :-)

> In this particular case, it's something much more lame:
> 
> (gdb) bt
> #0  0x00de3f73 in pixmanBltsse2 (src_bits=0xa8587000,
> dst_bits=0xa0587000, src_stride=1408, dst_stride=1408, src_bpp=32, 
>     dst_bpp=32, src_x=0, src_y=0, dst_x=0, dst_y=0, width=1299,
> height=15000) at pixman-sse2.c:4530
> [...]

Is there an easy way to generate traces like that for a new bug report, 
in case a EQ overflow should strike again?

Anyhow I haven't had one single crash like that since I upgraded to F11 
beta. I'm looking forward for Leonidas!

-- 
Regards,
Richard "Shred" K?rber



From dcbw at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 15:44:36 2009
From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:44:36 -0400
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 11:12 -0400, Mark Bidewell wrote:
> When I installed F11 preview.  Network manager configured my eth0 to
> never be activiated automatically.  Since this was the only NIC on the
> system the result was no network.  Easily fixable but not user
> friendly.  I use KDE so I am not sure if this goes against network
> manager or knetworkmanager.  Any thoughts?

People can't have it both ways.  Anaconda will write ONBOOT=no if you
are not installing over the network, and thus your interface will not be
"autoconnect".  If you do install over a network, then anaconda will
write ONBOOT=yes, and you will get autoconnect.  That's the root cause
of your problem.  Not sure how to fix it, because there are legitimate
reasons for not making all interfaces autoconnect when you don't do a
network install.  Part of that is security; don't bring a network up
until you really need it, since connecting to a network makes a machine
less secure.

Not sure how to fix this, it's more of a policy decision at install-time
than anything technical.

Dan




From selinux at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 15:42:45 2009
From: selinux at gmail.com (Tom London)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 08:42:45 -0700
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <1241015466.18324.170.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090429092603.74fa373a@dhcp03.addix.net>
	<4c4ba1530904290626y72e7ad12w357bb5073eae5c48@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241015466.18324.170.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4c4ba1530904290842if799416q4266aff06e9b3741@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:31 AM, Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 06:26 -0700, Tom London wrote:
>
>> My @home monitor does not support KMS; I'll retest with my "KMS
>> approved" monitor @work.
>
> Can you clarify this statement? ?The monitor really shouldn't factor
> into whether KMS works or not. ?Admittedly there's been some bugs with
> the I2C code in the kernel (turns out KMS is the first serious user of
> it, who knew), but X's mode selection logic is independent of who does
> I2C.
>
> - ajax
>
Sure.

I've BZ'ed here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489987

Rough details: I connect my X200 at home with an old Mitsubishi LCD
monitor, and at work with a newer HP LCD monitor.

System boots fine with HP monitor and KMS (that is, plymouth displays
properly and gdm/X "comes up" fine), but does not with Mistubishi LCD
(plymouth displays properly, but the monitor immediately goes into
"power save" mode and the screen turns black when gdm should be
starting.).

To make it "work", I need to add "nomodeset nopat" when booting with
Mitsu. monitor.

I believe the "nopat" was needed to make compiz not display the "white
screen of indifference"
(https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486375).

Believe various Xorg.0.log files are attached there.

I'm eager to help here.  Let me know what more I do....

tom
-- 
Tom London



From mike at cchtml.com  Wed Apr 29 15:49:26 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:49:26 -0500
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Network Manager in F11 Preview
From: Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/29/2009 10:44 AM

> 
> Not sure how to fix this, it's more of a policy decision at install-time
> than anything technical.


When selecting a non-auto interface, should a popup ask "Do you wish to 
start this interface at boot?" Provide a checkbox that says "Stop asking 
me" if they dont want to? It's basically a shortcut to going into the 
properties of the connection and doing all that junk. Easy to use, etc.



From mark.bidewell at alumni.clemson.edu  Wed Apr 29 15:52:45 2009
From: mark.bidewell at alumni.clemson.edu (Mark Bidewell)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:52:45 -0400
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <bfdeacfa0904290852x91d43f2i3e2c74250fd2610f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 11:12 -0400, Mark Bidewell wrote:
> > When I installed F11 preview.  Network manager configured my eth0 to
> > never be activiated automatically.  Since this was the only NIC on the
> > system the result was no network.  Easily fixable but not user
> > friendly.  I use KDE so I am not sure if this goes against network
> > manager or knetworkmanager.  Any thoughts?
>
> People can't have it both ways.  Anaconda will write ONBOOT=no if you
> are not installing over the network, and thus your interface will not be
> "autoconnect".  If you do install over a network, then anaconda will
> write ONBOOT=yes, and you will get autoconnect.  That's the root cause
> of your problem.  Not sure how to fix it, because there are legitimate
> reasons for not making all interfaces autoconnect when you don't do a
> network install.  Part of that is security; don't bring a network up
> until you really need it, since connecting to a network makes a machine
> less secure.
>
> Not sure how to fix this, it's more of a policy decision at install-time
> than anything technical.
>
> Dan
>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

I guess the question here is what if I was a "Joe SixPack" user who didn't
know immediately to look in the settings what would I have done.  Without
network connectivity it is a little difficult to research the answer.

-- 
Mark Bidewell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/markbidewell
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From mark.bidewell at alumni.clemson.edu  Wed Apr 29 15:53:04 2009
From: mark.bidewell at alumni.clemson.edu (Mark Bidewell)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:53:04 -0400
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <bfdeacfa0904290853n75e15c17naf0420e55868b2b6@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Michael Cronenworth <mike at cchtml.com>wrote:

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Network Manager in F11 Preview
> From: Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com>
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora <
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Date: 04/29/2009 10:44 AM
>
>
>> Not sure how to fix this, it's more of a policy decision at install-time
>> than anything technical.
>>
>
>
> When selecting a non-auto interface, should a popup ask "Do you wish to
> start this interface at boot?" Provide a checkbox that says "Stop asking me"
> if they dont want to? It's basically a shortcut to going into the properties
> of the connection and doing all that junk. Easy to use, etc.
>
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>


+1

-- 
Mark Bidewell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/markbidewell
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From selinux at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 15:55:44 2009
From: selinux at gmail.com (Tom London)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 08:55:44 -0700
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <4c4ba1530904290842if799416q4266aff06e9b3741@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090429092603.74fa373a@dhcp03.addix.net>
	<4c4ba1530904290626y72e7ad12w357bb5073eae5c48@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241015466.18324.170.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<4c4ba1530904290842if799416q4266aff06e9b3741@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4c4ba1530904290855x6e383a48l516919be66d87579@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Tom London <selinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:31 AM, Adam Jackson <ajax at redhat.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 06:26 -0700, Tom London wrote:
>>
>>> My @home monitor does not support KMS; I'll retest with my "KMS
>>> approved" monitor @work.
>>
>> Can you clarify this statement? ?The monitor really shouldn't factor
>> into whether KMS works or not. ?Admittedly there's been some bugs with
>> the I2C code in the kernel (turns out KMS is the first serious user of
>> it, who knew), but X's mode selection logic is independent of who does
>> I2C.
>>
>> - ajax
>>
> Sure.
>
> I've BZ'ed here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489987
>
> Rough details: I connect my X200 at home with an old Mitsubishi LCD
> monitor, and at work with a newer HP LCD monitor.
>
> System boots fine with HP monitor and KMS (that is, plymouth displays
> properly and gdm/X "comes up" fine), but does not with Mistubishi LCD
> (plymouth displays properly, but the monitor immediately goes into
> "power save" mode and the screen turns black when gdm should be
> starting.).
>
> To make it "work", I need to add "nomodeset nopat" when booting with
> Mitsu. monitor.
>
> I believe the "nopat" was needed to make compiz not display the "white
> screen of indifference"
> (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486375).
>
> Believe various Xorg.0.log files are attached there.
>
> I'm eager to help here. ?Let me know what more I do....
>

Realize the "nopat" part may not be clear: I only need to boot with
"nopat" if I boot with "nomodeset".  When KMS is working, I don't seem
to have an issue with pat/nopat.

Still eager to help ;-)

tom
-- 
Tom London



From dcbw at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 16:06:01 2009
From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:06:01 -0400
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <bfdeacfa0904290852x91d43f2i3e2c74250fd2610f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<bfdeacfa0904290852x91d43f2i3e2c74250fd2610f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1241021161.8214.34.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 11:52 -0400, Mark Bidewell wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com>
> wrote:
>         On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 11:12 -0400, Mark Bidewell wrote:
>         > When I installed F11 preview.  Network manager configured my
>         eth0 to
>         > never be activiated automatically.  Since this was the only
>         NIC on the
>         > system the result was no network.  Easily fixable but not
>         user
>         > friendly.  I use KDE so I am not sure if this goes against
>         network
>         > manager or knetworkmanager.  Any thoughts?
>         
>         
>         People can't have it both ways.  Anaconda will write ONBOOT=no
>         if you
>         are not installing over the network, and thus your interface
>         will not be
>         "autoconnect".  If you do install over a network, then
>         anaconda will
>         write ONBOOT=yes, and you will get autoconnect.  That's the
>         root cause
>         of your problem.  Not sure how to fix it, because there are
>         legitimate
>         reasons for not making all interfaces autoconnect when you
>         don't do a
>         network install.  Part of that is security; don't bring a
>         network up
>         until you really need it, since connecting to a network makes
>         a machine
>         less secure.
>         
>         Not sure how to fix this, it's more of a policy decision at
>         install-time
>         than anything technical.
>         
>         Dan
>         
>         
>         --
>         fedora-devel-list mailing list
>         fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
>         https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
> 
> I guess the question here is what if I was a "Joe SixPack" user who
> didn't know immediately to look in the settings what would I have
> done.  Without network connectivity it is a little difficult to
> research the answer.

At least you can click on the ethernet connection in the applet menu if
you can associate the "two computers with a red X" icon with networking.
That's two clicks and doesn't require jumping into the connection editor
to just get online.

Dan





From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 16:11:33 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:11:33 -0400
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <49F87588.5070308@ml.shredzone.de>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>
	<1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<49F87588.5070308@ml.shredzone.de>
Message-ID: <1241021493.18324.199.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 17:43 +0200, Richard K?rber wrote:

> I, for one, wasn't aware of that because I know next to nothing about 
> the internas of the X server. Counting the number of comments on that 
> bug, I guess I wasn't the only one though. :-)

Some days I wish I knew less about it.

> > In this particular case, it's something much more lame:
> > 
> > (gdb) bt
> > #0  0x00de3f73 in pixmanBltsse2 (src_bits=0xa8587000,
> > dst_bits=0xa0587000, src_stride=1408, dst_stride=1408, src_bpp=32, 
> >     dst_bpp=32, src_x=0, src_y=0, dst_x=0, dst_y=0, width=1299,
> > height=15000) at pixman-sse2.c:4530
> > [...]
> 
> Is there an easy way to generate traces like that for a new bug report, 
> in case a EQ overflow should strike again?

You need a second machine.  ssh into the one that locked up, sudo
debuginfo-install xorg-x11-server xorg-x11-drv-\*, sudo
gdb /usr/bin/Xorg `pidof Xorg`, bt.  See also:

http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/ServerDebugging

There are some cases where this won't work.  Some of the DRM ioctls are
not interruptible, which means gdb won't be able to attach to the
process.  If that happens there's almost certainly something in dmesg to
indicate that something's gone south.  However, since they're not
interruptible, SIGIO won't get delivered either, which means the mouse
won't move, so you should at least have some idea ahead of time which
kind of lockup you're facing.

Note the various grades of lockup:

- can't even ssh in
- can ssh in, but can't attach with gdb
- can attach with gdb

Even being able to distinguish among these cases goes a long way towards
locating the bug.

- ajax
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From tgl at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 16:13:08 2009
From: tgl at redhat.com (Tom Lane)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:13:08 -0400
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview 
In-Reply-To: <1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <9099.1241021588@sss.pgh.pa.us>

Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com> writes:
> Not sure how to fix this, it's more of a policy decision at install-time
> than anything technical.

Sure, but have you got the right policy there?  It's fairly difficult to
imagine anyone not wanting network connectivity for a Fedora
installation.  Where will they get updates from?

I could imagine having an install-time choice that "I do not wish to
connect this machine to a network", but it's hard to argue that that
should be the default.

			regards, tom lane



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 16:15:41 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:15:41 -0700
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <1241015466.18324.170.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090429092603.74fa373a@dhcp03.addix.net>
	<4c4ba1530904290626y72e7ad12w357bb5073eae5c48@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241015466.18324.170.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1241021741.32113.248.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:31 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 06:26 -0700, Tom London wrote:
> 
> > My @home monitor does not support KMS; I'll retest with my "KMS
> > approved" monitor @work.
> 
> Can you clarify this statement?  The monitor really shouldn't factor
> into whether KMS works or not.  Admittedly there's been some bugs with
> the I2C code in the kernel (turns out KMS is the first serious user of
> it, who knew), but X's mode selection logic is independent of who does
> I2C.

Also, what's the bug #?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From selinux at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 16:22:48 2009
From: selinux at gmail.com (Tom London)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:22:48 -0700
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <1241021741.32113.248.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090429092603.74fa373a@dhcp03.addix.net>
	<4c4ba1530904290626y72e7ad12w357bb5073eae5c48@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241015466.18324.170.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1241021741.32113.248.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <4c4ba1530904290922t404973f4u1e799beed01fff2c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:31 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 06:26 -0700, Tom London wrote:
>>
>> > My @home monitor does not support KMS; I'll retest with my "KMS
>> > approved" monitor @work.
>>
>> Can you clarify this statement? ?The monitor really shouldn't factor
>> into whether KMS works or not. ?Admittedly there's been some bugs with
>> the I2C code in the kernel (turns out KMS is the first serious user of
>> it, who knew), but X's mode selection logic is independent of who does
>> I2C.
>
> Also, what's the bug #?
> --
BZ'ed here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489987 (filed
on "Intel Test Day")....

tom
-- 
Tom London



From awilliam at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 16:27:42 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:27:42 -0700
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <4c4ba1530904290922t404973f4u1e799beed01fff2c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090429092603.74fa373a@dhcp03.addix.net>
	<4c4ba1530904290626y72e7ad12w357bb5073eae5c48@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241015466.18324.170.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1241021741.32113.248.camel@adam.local.net>
	<4c4ba1530904290922t404973f4u1e799beed01fff2c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1241022462.32113.250.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 09:22 -0700, Tom London wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:31 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> >> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 06:26 -0700, Tom London wrote:
> >>
> >> > My @home monitor does not support KMS; I'll retest with my "KMS
> >> > approved" monitor @work.
> >>
> >> Can you clarify this statement?  The monitor really shouldn't factor
> >> into whether KMS works or not.  Admittedly there's been some bugs with
> >> the I2C code in the kernel (turns out KMS is the first serious user of
> >> it, who knew), but X's mode selection logic is independent of who does
> >> I2C.
> >
> > Also, what's the bug #?
> > --
> BZ'ed here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489987 (filed
> on "Intel Test Day")....

Ah, that one. OK. I don't remember all bug reports, I track a lot. :)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From dcbw at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 16:30:16 2009
From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:30:16 -0400
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <9099.1241021588@sss.pgh.pa.us>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<9099.1241021588@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Message-ID: <1241022617.8214.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 12:13 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com> writes:
> > Not sure how to fix this, it's more of a policy decision at install-time
> > than anything technical.
> 
> Sure, but have you got the right policy there?  It's fairly difficult to
> imagine anyone not wanting network connectivity for a Fedora
> installation.  Where will they get updates from?
> 
> I could imagine having an install-time choice that "I do not wish to
> connect this machine to a network", but it's hard to argue that that
> should be the default.

Then we file an anaconda bug and make that happen.

Dan




From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Wed Apr 29 17:20:58 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 01:20:58 +0800
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <49F88C7A.7030005@hidayahonline.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 04/29/2009 11:49 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Network Manager in F11 Preview
> From: Dan Williams <dcbw at redhat.com>
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Date: 04/29/2009 10:44 AM
> 
>>
>> Not sure how to fix this, it's more of a policy decision at install-time
>> than anything technical.
> 
> 
> When selecting a non-auto interface, should a popup ask "Do you wish to
> start this interface at boot?" Provide a checkbox that says "Stop asking
> me" if they dont want to? It's basically a shortcut to going into the
> properties of the connection and doing all that junk. Easy to use, etc.
> 
When I had this problem with F11 Beta, the issue could not be fixed via
the GUI.  I had to edit /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0 and
enable onboot for the connection.

Is this same or is it editable via the GUI now?
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 17:50:28 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:50:28 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 12:10 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 08:23 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 12:13 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > > I must say that, while I do believe users need to have access to the sound
> > > card controls exposed by ALSA, the precedent this decision sets worries me.
> > > It should ultimately be the GNOME Desktop Team's decision to decide what
> > > goes onto the GNOME spin. I definitely wouldn't be happy if FESCo started
> > > dictating the contents of the KDE spin.
> > 
> > I don't see it as dictation.  I see it as reaching a compromise.  FESCo
> > didn't even vote on it until after mclasen agreed to put the mixer
> > there.
> 
> Of course, having wwoods threaten to revert the whole VolumeControl
> feature has nothing to do with it...

Given that wwoods isn't even in FESCo, that'd be a neat trick.  But
isn't that the very definition of compromise?  Two sides each have
desires that neither side can agree upon.  Each side makes concessions
until they meet somewhere in the middle?

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From the.masch at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 17:53:35 2009
From: the.masch at gmail.com (Mario Chacon)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:53:35 -0300
Subject: F11 - Error loading intel driver
In-Reply-To: <1240957484.32113.229.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <93d66b780904271132g6bd78aabj8a2accad86772593@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1240957484.32113.229.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <93d66b780904291053h23dd136axac34ff975fc5b76e@mail.gmail.com>

Great! Thanks. I will waiting the fix.

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>wrote:

> On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 15:32 -0300, Mario Chacon wrote:
> > Hello:
> > Is it possible to fix it recompiling some libs??..
> >
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=495524
>
> The bug is correctly triaged and assigned, posting to this list is not
> going to help anything. This bug is something specific to your hardware,
> it's not happening to any other user I'm aware of (unless it's also
> happening to Otto Rey, it's not quite clear from his posts).
>
> It has nothing to do with 'recompiling some libs', I'm not sure where
> you got that idea. As far as the information you've provided so far
> shows, the bug is in the kernel, in whatever is causing i2c-core to fail
> to load.
> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
> http://www.happyassassin.net
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
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From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 17:59:51 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:59:51 -0400
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>
	<1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1241027991.18324.206.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:28 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:

> Check out frame 0 [1].  The server is being asked to do a blit that's
> 15000 pixels tall.  Who knows why, it could easily be a bug in firefox,
> but it could also be something the web page really did ask for.

I should note that this really is the web page's fault:

http://www.wthitv.com/images/bg_module.png

So that's pretty awesome.  By which I mean, let's drink until we can't
feel feelings anymore.

- ajax
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 18:04:28 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:04:28 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 Preview Release announcement
In-Reply-To: <1240940619.2567.139.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904280940240.9793@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240940619.2567.139.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
Message-ID: <1241028268.3139.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 18:43 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> 
> I'm sorry, I can't hear you. Can you turn it up a bit?
> 
> What do you mean, it won't go any louder? The _last_ release used to go
> louder.

This release already goes up to 11...

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From dpierce at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 18:31:47 2009
From: dpierce at redhat.com (Darryl L. Pierce)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:31:47 -0400
Subject: Review swaps...
Message-ID: <20090429183147.GG4486@mcpierce-laptop.rdu.redhat.com>

I have three packages to be reviewed, and will working with others to
get them reviewed.

472819 - Review Request: rubygem-rufus-scheduler
497640 - Review Request: rubygem-RedCloth
476530 - Review Request: projxp - Agile project management server

476530 depends on the other two since it requires those two gems be
present. I'll do package reviews for others in exchange for these being
reviewed.

-- 
Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc.
Virtual Machine Management - http://www.ovirt.org/
Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste n? B?arla cliste.
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From dan at danny.cz  Wed Apr 29 18:48:18 2009
From: dan at danny.cz (Dan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hor=E1k?=)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:48:18 +0200
Subject: Review swaps...
In-Reply-To: <20090429183147.GG4486@mcpierce-laptop.rdu.redhat.com>
References: <20090429183147.GG4486@mcpierce-laptop.rdu.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1241030898.625.47.camel@eagle.danny.cz>

Darryl L. Pierce p??e v St 29. 04. 2009 v 14:31 -0400:
> I have three packages to be reviewed, and will working with others to
> get them reviewed.
> 
> 472819 - Review Request: rubygem-rufus-scheduler
> 497640 - Review Request: rubygem-RedCloth
> 476530 - Review Request: projxp - Agile project management server

I will swap some (or all :-) ) for
491650 - Review Request: libica - Library for accessing ICA hardware
crypto on IBM zSeries


		Dan




From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Wed Apr 29 19:19:51 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:19:51 -0500
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <1241027991.18324.206.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>	<49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>	<1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1241027991.18324.206.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gta98n$7ct$1@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:28 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
>> Check out frame 0 [1].  The server is being asked to do a blit that's
>> 15000 pixels tall.  Who knows why, it could easily be a bug in firefox,
>> but it could also be something the web page really did ask for.
> 
> I should note that this really is the web page's fault:
> 
> http://www.wthitv.com/images/bg_module.png
> 
> So that's pretty awesome.  By which I mean, let's drink until we can't
> feel feelings anymore.

Indeed. Someone needs to go back to CSS school.

(Anyone sent the webmaster a "your site hard-locks my computer" mail, 
yet? :-) )

-- 
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
-- 
This is not a sig. I am too lazy to steal one, perhaps you could loan me 
yours? -- Unknown



From mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net  Wed Apr 29 19:21:15 2009
From: mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net (Matthew Woehlke)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:21:15 -0500
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <49F88C7A.7030005@hidayahonline.org>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com>
	<49F88C7A.7030005@hidayahonline.org>
Message-ID: <gta9bb$75i$1@ger.gmane.org>

Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> When I had this problem with F11 Beta, the issue could not be fixed via
> the GUI.  I had to edit /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0 and
> enable onboot for the connection.
> 
> Is this same or is it editable via the GUI now?

By "the GUI", do you mean NM or system-config-network? I want to say the 
latter should work, don't know about the former.

-- 
Matthew
Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies.
-- 
This is not a sig. I am too lazy to steal one, perhaps you could loan me 
yours? -- Unknown



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr 29 19:34:05 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:34:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090429 changes
Message-ID: <20090429193405.1D1AB1F8203@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Wed Apr 29 06:15:03 UTC 2009

Updated Packages:

Miro-2.0.3-2.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 2.0.3-2
- Rebuild against newer gecko


blam-1.8.5-10.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 1.8.5-10
- Rebuild against newer gecko


chmsee-1.0.1-6.fc11
-------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 1.0.1-6
- Rebuild against newer gecko


ekiga-3.2.0-2.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> - 3.2.0-2
- Add a couple of upstream patches from 3.2.1


epiphany-2.26.1-2.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2
- Rebuild against newer gecko


epiphany-extensions-2.26.1-2.fc11
---------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2
- Rebuild against newer gecko


evolution-rss-0.1.2-9.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 0.1.2-9
- Rebuild against newer gecko


fedora-gnome-theme-8.0.0-9.fc11
-------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 8.0.0-9
- Add cursor theme settings matching the gconf defaults


firefox-3.5-0.20.beta4.fc11
---------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 3.5-0.20
- 3.5 beta 4


galeon-2.0.7-10.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 2.0.7-10
- Rebuild against newer gecko

* Mon Apr 20 2009 Denis Leroy <denis at poolshark.org> - 2.0.7-8
- Moz 191 update and rebuild for favicon.ico behavior fix


gnome-desktop-2.26.1-2.fc11
---------------------------
* Tue Apr 28 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2
- Fix a case of disappearing rotations (#497515)


gnome-python2-extras-2.25.3-3.fc11
----------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 2.25.3-3
- Rebuild against newer gecko


gnome-web-photo-0.7-2.fc11
--------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 0.7-2
- Rebuild against newer gecko


google-gadgets-0.10.5-6.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 0.10.5-6
- Rebuild against newer gecko


hulahop-0.4.9-4.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 0.4.9-4
- Rebuild against newer gecko


ipa-gothic-fonts-003.01-2.fc11
------------------------------

ipa-mincho-fonts-003.01-2.fc11
------------------------------

ipa-pgothic-fonts-003.01-2.fc11
-------------------------------

ipa-pmincho-fonts-003.01-2.fc11
-------------------------------

java-1.6.0-openjdk-1.6.0.0-20.b14.fc11
--------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 1:1.6.0.0-20.b14
- Rebuild against newer gecko


kazehakase-0.5.6-11.svn3771_trunk.fc11.1
----------------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 0.5.6-11.svn3771_trunk.1
- Rebuild against newer gecko


libmodplug-0.8.7-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Ville Skytt?? <ville.skytta at iki.fi> - 1:0.8.7-1
- Update to 0.8.7 (security, #496834).


libvirt-0.6.2-3.fc11
--------------------
* Tue Apr 28 2009 Daniel Veillard <veillard at redhat.com> - 0.6.2-3.fc11
- Fix missing directories in spec (#496945 and gtk-doc)


liferea-1.4.26-2.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 1.4.26-2
- Rebuild against newer gecko


logjam-4.5.3-33.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 4.5.3-29
- add support for lj-embed tags
- add support for MPRIS music detection (Andy Shevchenko)
- improve tag handling (Andy Shevchenko)

* Mon Apr 27 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 4.5.3-30
- rebuild with all patches in place

* Mon Apr 27 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 4.5.3-31
- conditionalize libtool fun for F11+

* Mon Apr 27 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 4.5.3-32
- only move broken locale dir if it gets created

* Mon Apr 27 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 4.5.3-33
- conditionalize libtool fun for F10+

* Thu Apr 02 2009 Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> - 4.5.3-28
- add patch to enable "keep drafts" functionality
  see: http://community.livejournal.com/logjam_dev/37274.html


lxpanel-0.4.0-1.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Christoph Wickert <cwickert at fedoraproject.org> 0.4.0-1
- Update to 0.4.0 final (fixes #496833)


monodevelop-2.0-2.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 2.0-2
- Rebuild against newer gecko


mozvoikko-0.9.7-0.3.rc1.fc11
----------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 0.9.7-0.3.rc1
- Rebuild against newer gecko


mugshot-1.2.2-9.fc11
--------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 1.2.2-9
- Rebuild against newer gecko


notification-daemon-0.4.0-3.fc11
--------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.4.0-3
- Select the nodoka theme by default


opal-3.6.1-3.fc11
-----------------
* Sun Apr 26 2009 Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com> - 3.6.1-3
- pull in some upstream fixes for possible crashes


perl-Gtk2-MozEmbed-0.08-6.fc11.1
--------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 0.08-6.1
- Rebuild against newer gecko

* Sat Apr 25 2009 Remi Collet <Fedora at FamilleCollet.com> - 0.08-6
- fix release to fix NEVR issue (upgrade from F10)


phpMyAdmin-3.1.4-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Sat Apr 25 2009 Robert Scheck <robert at fedoraproject.org> 3.1.4-1
- Upstream released 3.1.4


qemu-0.10-15.fc11
-----------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Glauber Costa <glommer at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-15
- provide qemu-kvm as a metapackage

* Fri Apr 24 2009 Mark McLoughlin <markmc at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-14
- Fix source numbering typos caused by make-release addition

* Thu Apr 23 2009 Mark McLoughlin <markmc at redhat.com> - 2:0.10-13
- Improve instructions for generating the tarball


redhat-lsb-3.2-3.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 3.2-3
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


rhythmbox-0.12.1-1.fc11
-----------------------
* Tue Apr 28 2009 - Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> - 0.12.1-1
- Update to 0.12.1


ruby-gnome2-0.18.1-7.fc11
-------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 0.18.1-7
- Rebuild against newer gecko


seahorse-plugins-2.26.1-3.fc11
------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-3
- Rebuild against newer gecko


selinux-policy-3.6.12-23.fc11
-----------------------------
* Tue Apr 28 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-22
- Fix Upgrade path to install unconfineduser.pp when unocnfined package is 3.0.0 or less

* Tue Apr 28 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-23
- Fix uml files to be owned by users

* Mon Apr 27 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-20
- Fix labeling on /var/lib/misc/prelink*
- Allow xserver to rw_shm_perms with all x_clients
- Allow prelink to execute files in the users home directory

* Mon Apr 27 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-21
- Allow confined users to manage virt_content_t, since this is home dir content
- Allow all domains to read rpm_script_tmp_t which is what shell creates on redirection

* Fri Apr 24 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-16
- Update to latest milter code from Paul Howarth

* Fri Apr 24 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-19
- Allow initrc_t to delete dev_null
- Allow readahead to configure auditing
- Fix milter policy
- Add /var/lib/readahead

* Thu Apr 23 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-13
- Allow sysadm_t to run rpm directly
- libvirt needs fowner

* Thu Apr 23 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-14
- Allow pulseaudio to acquire_svc on session bus
- Fix readahead labeling

* Thu Apr 23 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-15
- Additional perms for readahead

* Wed Apr 22 2009 Dan Walsh <dwalsh at redhat.com> 3.6.12-12
- Allow sshd to read var_lib symlinks for freenx


xulrunner-1.9.1-0.20.beta4.fc11
-------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> 1.9.1-0.20
- 1.9.1 beta 4


yelp-2.26.0-3.fc11
------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> - 2.26.0-3
- Rebuild against newer gecko


Summary:
Added Packages: 0
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 41
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libexiv2.so.4
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.i386 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libexiv2.so.4()(64bit)
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.x86_64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.ppc requires libexiv2.so.4
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	fedora-ksplice-0.5-3.fc11.noarch requires ksplice
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libexiv2.so.4()(64bit)
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)





From dcbw at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 19:51:46 2009
From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:51:46 -0400
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <gta9bb$75i$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com> <49F88C7A.7030005@hidayahonline.org>
	<gta9bb$75i$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1241034706.16662.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 14:21 -0500, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > When I had this problem with F11 Beta, the issue could not be fixed via
> > the GUI.  I had to edit /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0 and
> > enable onboot for the connection.
> > 
> > Is this same or is it editable via the GUI now?
> 
> By "the GUI", do you mean NM or system-config-network? I want to say the 
> latter should work, don't know about the former.

nm-connection-editor in F11 is able to read and write ifcfg files for
wired and wireless connections.

Dan




From cmadams at hiwaay.net  Wed Apr 29 20:04:00 2009
From: cmadams at hiwaay.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:04:00 -0500
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <gta98n$7ct$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>
	<1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1241027991.18324.206.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<gta98n$7ct$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090429200400.GA1380728@hiwaay.net>

Once upon a time, Matthew Woehlke <mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net> said:
> Adam Jackson wrote:
> >On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:28 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> >>Check out frame 0 [1].  The server is being asked to do a blit that's
> >>15000 pixels tall.  Who knows why, it could easily be a bug in firefox,
> >>but it could also be something the web page really did ask for.
> >
> >I should note that this really is the web page's fault:
> >
> >http://www.wthitv.com/images/bg_module.png
> >
> >So that's pretty awesome.  By which I mean, let's drink until we can't
> >feel feelings anymore.
> 
> Indeed. Someone needs to go back to CSS school.
> 
> (Anyone sent the webmaster a "your site hard-locks my computer" mail, 
> yet? :-) )

Well, to be honest, nothing a silly webmaster does should lock the
computer.  Firefox should probably be smarter about this.
-- 
Chris Adams <cmadams at hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.



From roth at ursus.net  Wed Apr 29 20:07:01 2009
From: roth at ursus.net (Carl D. Roth)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:07:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rpm-4.6 and brp-python-bytecompile?
References: <gt65qk$fvm$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090428153619.GB54853@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gtac15$dp7$1@ger.gmane.org>

On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:36:20 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 28 2009, Carl D. Roth said:
>> I noticed this wierdness with rpm-4.6 (f10) and rpm-4.7 (f11)...  When
>> I build packages including Python scripts, sometimes the .pyc and .pyo
>> files are included in the package manifest, and sometimes, they are
>> not.
> [snip]
>> Why does the %__os_install_post macro vary in these examples?  It's a
>> little frustrating, since a spec file that works outside of a mock
>> chroot may not work inside, and vice-versa.
> 
> Make sure you always have redhat-rpm-config installed
> 
> Jeremy

Since it appears to be necessary to build RPMs on a Fedora system, why 
isn't there a dependency chain between redhat-rpm-config and rpm-build?

C



From ajax at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 20:15:44 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:15:44 -0400
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <20090429200400.GA1380728@hiwaay.net>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>
	<1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1241027991.18324.206.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<gta98n$7ct$1@ger.gmane.org>  <20090429200400.GA1380728@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <1241036144.18324.217.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 15:04 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Matthew Woehlke <mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net> said:
> > Adam Jackson wrote:
> > >On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:28 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> > >>Check out frame 0 [1].  The server is being asked to do a blit that's
> > >>15000 pixels tall.  Who knows why, it could easily be a bug in firefox,
> > >>but it could also be something the web page really did ask for.
> > >
> > >I should note that this really is the web page's fault:
> > >
> > >http://www.wthitv.com/images/bg_module.png
> > >
> > >So that's pretty awesome.  By which I mean, let's drink until we can't
> > >feel feelings anymore.
> > 
> > Indeed. Someone needs to go back to CSS school.
> > 
> > (Anyone sent the webmaster a "your site hard-locks my computer" mail, 
> > yet? :-) )
> 
> Well, to be honest, nothing a silly webmaster does should lock the
> computer.  Firefox should probably be smarter about this.

Ennh.  Firefox doesn't have any way of knowing what the acceleration
size limit is for a given driver.  It could chunk up pixmaps into 2k
blocks, which is nice and conservative, but getting rendering correct
once you do that is entirely non-trivial.  Easy for blits, very hard for
blends and transformations.

There's a project to handle this transparently in the X server.  It
doesn't work yet, but I gave a talk about it at LCA this year:

http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2009/Friday/76.ogg

and I've got a Summer of Code student looking at it this summer, so,
maybe someday we'll have a real window system.

Also, just to be pedantic, it's not a lockup, just really really slow,
and much slower than it needs to be because of a kernel bug.  Should be
able to get it to be merely a performance hiccup by F11.

- ajax
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From mail at robertoragusa.it  Wed Apr 29 20:20:23 2009
From: mail at robertoragusa.it (Roberto Ragusa)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:20:23 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 Preview Release announcement
In-Reply-To: <1241028268.3139.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904280940240.9793@localhost.localdomain>	<1240940619.2567.139.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1241028268.3139.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F8B687.9050102@robertoragusa.it>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 18:43 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
>> I'm sorry, I can't hear you. Can you turn it up a bit?
>>
>> What do you mean, it won't go any louder? The _last_ release used to go
>> louder.
> 
> This release already goes up to 11...

This "goes up to 11" thing started a lot of time ago; IIRC the choice
of the name for F10 was influenced by the idea to "prepare the way"
for this joke.

What I find somewhat amusing and finely ironic is that the
release is approaching and the most debated issue (with hundreds
of messages) is.... how the audio level should be controlled by
the mixer.

8-)

-- 
   Roberto Ragusa    mail at robertoragusa.it



From mclasen at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 20:31:59 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:31:59 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is> <1240861630.2514.3.camel@choeger6>
	<16de708d0904271446p43f0d709vdddc1b5155c43a86@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>
Message-ID: <1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 09:48 +0200, Roberto Ragusa wrote:

> 
> Joking aside, GNOME people and KDE people could try to describe
> their environment themselves.
> 
> It *is* possible to do it in two lines:
> 
> GNOME: consistent and easy to use, even for new users
> KDE: very configurable, for users who like personalization

No, you merely reproduced clich?es that people keep repeating about
these desktops. Face it, it is not possible to produce a meaningful 1, 2
or ten line description that allows new users to make an informed
choice.


Matthias



From dpierce at redhat.com  Wed Apr 29 20:33:15 2009
From: dpierce at redhat.com (Darryl L. Pierce)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:33:15 -0400
Subject: Review swaps...
In-Reply-To: <1241030898.625.47.camel@eagle.danny.cz>
References: <20090429183147.GG4486@mcpierce-laptop.rdu.redhat.com>
	<1241030898.625.47.camel@eagle.danny.cz>
Message-ID: <20090429203315.GJ4486@mcpierce-laptop.rdu.redhat.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 08:48:18PM +0200, Dan Hor?k wrote:
> Darryl L. Pierce p??e v St 29. 04. 2009 v 14:31 -0400:
> > I have three packages to be reviewed, and will working with others to
> > get them reviewed.
> > 
> > 472819 - Review Request: rubygem-rufus-scheduler
> > 497640 - Review Request: rubygem-RedCloth
> > 476530 - Review Request: projxp - Agile project management server
> 
> I will swap some (or all :-) ) for
> 491650 - Review Request: libica - Library for accessing ICA hardware
> crypto on IBM zSeries

Thanks. I've assigned your review to myself.

-- 
Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc.
Virtual Machine Management - http://www.ovirt.org/
Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste n? B?arla cliste.
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From dr.diesel at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 20:43:28 2009
From: dr.diesel at gmail.com (Dr. Diesel)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:43:28 -0400
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <gta98n$7ct$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>
	<1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1241027991.18324.206.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<gta98n$7ct$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <2a28d2ab0904291343y3d554f16gf7a0cb6c2c1431ab@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Matthew Woehlke <
mw_triad at users.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Adam Jackson wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:28 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
>>
>>> Check out frame 0 [1].  The server is being asked to do a blit that's
>>> 15000 pixels tall.  Who knows why, it could easily be a bug in firefox,
>>> but it could also be something the web page really did ask for.
>>>
>>
>> I should note that this really is the web page's fault:
>>
>> http://www.wthitv.com/images/bg_module.png
>>
>> So that's pretty awesome.  By which I mean, let's drink until we can't
>> feel feelings anymore.
>>
>
> Indeed. Someone needs to go back to CSS school.
>
> (Anyone sent the webmaster a "your site hard-locks my computer" mail, yet?
> :-) )



We can't yet, we need to confirm once the bug is fixed!

I hate to mention this, but why doesn't my Windblows (with Firefox) box at
work have trouble with it?

-- 
projecthuh.com
All of my bits are free, are yours?  Fedoraproject.org
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From che666 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 20:45:21 2009
From: che666 at gmail.com (Rudolf Kastl)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:45:21 +0200
Subject: Fedora 11 Preview Release announcement
In-Reply-To: <49F8B687.9050102@robertoragusa.it>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904280940240.9793@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240940619.2567.139.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1241028268.3139.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F8B687.9050102@robertoragusa.it>
Message-ID: <e99d27470904291345t6d2d02f9j9121f11be1f3ca24@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/29 Roberto Ragusa <mail at robertoragusa.it>:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
>> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 18:43 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
>>> I'm sorry, I can't hear you. Can you turn it up a bit?
>>>
>>> What do you mean, it won't go any louder? The _last_ release used to go
>>> louder.
>>
>> This release already goes up to 11...
>
> This "goes up to 11" thing started a lot of time ago; IIRC the choice
> of the name for F10 was influenced by the idea to "prepare the way"
> for this joke.
>
> What I find somewhat amusing and finely ironic is that the
> release is approaching and the most debated issue (with hundreds
> of messages) is.... how the audio level should be controlled by
> the mixer.

s/mixer/volumecontrol

there... fixed that for you. ;)

kind regards,
Rudolf Kastl
>
> 8-)
>
> --
> ? Roberto Ragusa ? ?mail at robertoragusa.it
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>



From mike at cchtml.com  Wed Apr 29 20:45:47 2009
From: mike at cchtml.com (Michael Cronenworth)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:45:47 -0500
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <2a28d2ab0904291343y3d554f16gf7a0cb6c2c1431ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>	<49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>	<1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<1241027991.18324.206.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<gta98n$7ct$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<2a28d2ab0904291343y3d554f16gf7a0cb6c2c1431ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F8BC7B.7050809@cchtml.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: F11 Preview Hard Lock
From: Dr. Diesel <dr.diesel at gmail.com>
To: Development discussions related to Fedora <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
Date: 04/29/2009 03:43 PM

> 
> I hate to mention this, but why doesn't my Windblows (with Firefox) box 
> at work have trouble with it?


The performance issue is with your particular X driver and not Linux. 
The proprietary nVidia driver has no issues with that website and it's 
ridiculous web design practices.



From denis at poolshark.org  Wed Apr 29 20:52:24 2009
From: denis at poolshark.org (Denis Leroy)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:52:24 +0200
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <49F8BC7B.7050809@cchtml.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>	<49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>	<1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<1241027991.18324.206.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<gta98n$7ct$1@ger.gmane.org>	<2a28d2ab0904291343y3d554f16gf7a0cb6c2c1431ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F8BC7B.7050809@cchtml.com>
Message-ID: <49F8BE08.8000104@poolshark.org>

On 04/29/2009 10:45 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: F11 Preview Hard Lock
> From: Dr. Diesel <dr.diesel at gmail.com>
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> <fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> Date: 04/29/2009 03:43 PM
>
>>
>> I hate to mention this, but why doesn't my Windblows (with Firefox)
>> box at work have trouble with it?
>
>
> The performance issue is with your particular X driver and not Linux.
> The proprietary nVidia driver has no issues with that website

is fine with nouveau driver here.



From martin.sourada at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 21:06:51 2009
From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:06:51 +0200
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <1241034706.16662.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com> <49F88C7A.7030005@hidayahonline.org>
	<gta9bb$75i$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1241034706.16662.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1241039211.2316.15.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 15:51 -0400, Dan Williams wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 14:21 -0500, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> > Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > > When I had this problem with F11 Beta, the issue could not be fixed via
> > > the GUI.  I had to edit /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0 and
> > > enable onboot for the connection.
> > > 
> > > Is this same or is it editable via the GUI now?
> > 
> > By "the GUI", do you mean NM or system-config-network? I want to say the 
> > latter should work, don't know about the former.
> 
> nm-connection-editor in F11 is able to read and write ifcfg files for
> wired and wireless connections.
> 
Yeah, this seem to happened post beta. As a positive side effect of
making one of my authenticated wired connection system wide, nm stopped
firing up 'System eth0' (wasn't it called 'auto eth0' in F10?), which I
didn't want it to because I need to properly authenticate first to be
given network connection that I can use to connect to the world (and not
just a selected number of local sites directly related to setting up the
authenticated connection). (and having to click on the proper connection
after every boot is tiring...) :-) I am not sure though (as I didn't
tested that) when actually nm gets connected, but when I log in to
desktop and check if the connection is the correct one, it's already
connected...

> Dan
Martin

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From bochecha at fedoraproject.org  Wed Apr 29 21:09:22 2009
From: bochecha at fedoraproject.org (Mathieu Bridon (bochecha))
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:09:22 +0200
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <gta98n$7ct$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F7EBDE.4060005@ml.shredzone.de>
	<1241015339.18324.168.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<1241027991.18324.206.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<gta98n$7ct$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <2d319b780904291409qba87bdaub585cd0a6bdaeee2@mail.gmail.com>

> Indeed. Someone needs to go back to CSS school.
>
> (Anyone sent the webmaster a "your site hard-locks my computer" mail, yet?
> :-) )

No need for a poorly made website, any *big* image will do:
http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png

I was just about to show someone how insane the old
gnome-volume-control could be and...

A sound app that can freeze the graphical display, I guess I made my point ^_^


----------

Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)



From pmatilai at laiskiainen.org  Wed Apr 29 21:11:57 2009
From: pmatilai at laiskiainen.org (Panu Matilainen)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:11:57 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: rpm-4.6 and brp-python-bytecompile?
In-Reply-To: <gtac15$dp7$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gt65qk$fvm$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090428153619.GB54853@redhat.com>
	<gtac15$dp7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904300008000.25683@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Carl D. Roth wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:36:20 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, April 28 2009, Carl D. Roth said:
>>> I noticed this wierdness with rpm-4.6 (f10) and rpm-4.7 (f11)...  When
>>> I build packages including Python scripts, sometimes the .pyc and .pyo
>>> files are included in the package manifest, and sometimes, they are
>>> not.
>> [snip]
>>> Why does the %__os_install_post macro vary in these examples?  It's a
>>> little frustrating, since a spec file that works outside of a mock
>>> chroot may not work inside, and vice-versa.
>>
>> Make sure you always have redhat-rpm-config installed
>>
>> Jeremy
>
> Since it appears to be necessary to build RPMs on a Fedora system, why
> isn't there a dependency chain between redhat-rpm-config and rpm-build?

redhat-rpm-config defines RH/Fedora build policy/configuration. Rpm itself 
doesn't give a damn where that configuration comes from and is fully 
functional without it. It's just that rpm upstream build "policy" doesn't 
match Fedora's.

 	- Panu -



From gbofspam at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 22:14:48 2009
From: gbofspam at gmail.com (Andrew Parker)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:14:48 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49F580E2.8090404@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>
	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 09:48 +0200, Roberto Ragusa wrote:
>
>>
>> Joking aside, GNOME people and KDE people could try to describe
>> their environment themselves.
>>
>> It *is* possible to do it in two lines:
>>
>> GNOME: consistent and easy to use, even for new users
>> KDE: very configurable, for users who like personalization
>
> No, you merely reproduced clich?es that people keep repeating about
> these desktops. Face it, it is not possible to produce a meaningful 1, 2
> or ten line description that allows new users to make an informed
> choice.
>

Cliche?  Yes
Accurate? Yes



From emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr  Thu Apr 30 00:24:17 2009
From: emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr (Emmanuel Seyman)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 02:24:17 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>
	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>

* Andrew Parker [30/04/2009 02:10] :
>
> Cliche?  Yes
> Accurate? Yes

Sufficient to make an informed choice about what desktop to use? No

Emmanuel



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr 30 02:26:51 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 04:26:51 +0200
Subject: rpm-4.6 and brp-python-bytecompile?
References: <gt65qk$fvm$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090428153619.GB54853@redhat.com>
	<gtac15$dp7$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904300008000.25683@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>
Message-ID: <gtb29b$82h$1@ger.gmane.org>

Panu Matilainen wrote:
> redhat-rpm-config defines RH/Fedora build policy/configuration. Rpm itself
> doesn't give a damn where that configuration comes from and is fully
> functional without it. It's just that rpm upstream build "policy" doesn't
> match Fedora's.

But Fedora's rpm(-build) RPM should really require redhat-rpm-config.

        Kevin Kofler



From cdahlin at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 03:18:16 2009
From: cdahlin at redhat.com (Casey Dahlin)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:18:16 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>
Message-ID: <49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> * Andrew Parker [30/04/2009 02:10] :
>> Cliche?  Yes
>> Accurate? Yes
> 
> Sufficient to make an informed choice about what desktop to use? No
> 
> Emmanuel
> 

As I've said earlier in this thread, a new user can only go so wrong.
Neither of the two big boys is a bad choice.

- --CJD
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkn5GHgACgkQIHOkVH4pLz5PGACglUbn/zXkwGCBUW4bCFOPma3G
Ju8An07Y2e2c1RgdVgiF6GxWxquETFkq
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 05:33:41 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:33:41 -0700
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>
	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>
	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 23:18 -0400, Casey Dahlin wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> > * Andrew Parker [30/04/2009 02:10] :
> >> Cliche?  Yes
> >> Accurate? Yes
> > 
> > Sufficient to make an informed choice about what desktop to use? No
> > 
> > Emmanuel

> As I've said earlier in this thread, a new user can only go so wrong.
> Neither of the two big boys is a bad choice.

We're circling. I already said that even if it doesn't really matter
which option you pick, making someone make a decision they don't
understand frustrates them. That's the problem, not the 'danger' that
they might pick the 'wrong choice'.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From Matt_Domsch at dell.com  Thu Apr 30 05:38:29 2009
From: Matt_Domsch at dell.com (Matt Domsch)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:38:29 -0500
Subject: distro release and reproduceability
In-Reply-To: <49F784B7.4030806@lfarkas.org>
References: <49F784B7.4030806@lfarkas.org>
Message-ID: <20090430053829.GA21986@auslistsprd01.us.dell.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:35:35AM +0200, Farkas Levente wrote:
> hi,
> i started a thread on centos-devel:
> http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-devel/2009-April/004398.html
> but actually it's nothing to do with centos rather rhel and fedora.
> the question comes when i try to rebuild centos on itself. it turns out
> not possible what's more it's almost impossible to rebuild (or takes
> much more longer then the build time).
> the problem is the process how each packages and updates added to the
> distro ie. just the new packages rebuild and doesn't care whether the
> old packages still build. and easy example the latest mass rebuild.
> there were some problems with since new gcc can't compile old 'buggy'
> code, but there are many problems which has nothing to do with gcc, rpm
> or i586.
> the first question:
> - is it a goal for fedora to be able to rebuild itself?
> i hope the answer is yes:-)

yes.

> - how we can achieve this goal?
> imho the current policy and process is not good enough.

See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FTBFS

for one example of what is currently being done process-wise.

> 
> first of all it'd be useful to somehow automatically check all spec file
> during builds (eg. don't put check into %build, don't put build into
> %install or %prep etc).
> 
> the most important when a new or updated package build and added, then
> - at leat rebuild every package which depend on or requires the new
> package if all builds succeed add the new packages otherwise don't allow
> until other compilation fails.
> - but would be better same as 1. but also include all new rebuild in the
> updates which are different from it's last build (here some smart diff
> would be required eg. binary must be the same (what if newer gcc
> generate different/better code?) some other files can differ eg.
> generated docs can have some 'small' differences. this second step is a
> more complicated and requires a few more tools but would be better.
> 
> of course all of his requires a bit more build farm resource but produce
> a much better and stable distro.

Some projects such as openSUSE do throw a lot of compute resources at
the problem, rebuilding all dependent packages in the chain when a
lower-level package is rebuilt.  Fedora hasn't felt the need to go
quite this far.

Between the FTBFS build runs that I do, and the mass rebuilds that the
Release Engineering team did for Fedora 11, and those that Jacob has
done when major gcc changes are about ready, nearly all (but not
exactly all) packages can be rebuilt as expected.  The few (and it was
< 5% last time I looked, maybe significantly fewer even than that
after the F11 rebuilds) are quite problematic and mostly bit-rotten
code that people still have need for but upstream is stagnent.

Thanks,
Matt

-- 
Matt Domsch
Linux Technology Strategist, Dell Office of the CTO
linux.dell.com & www.dell.com/linux



From belegdol at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 06:40:18 2009
From: belegdol at gmail.com (Julian Sikorski)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:40:18 +0200
Subject: X becomes non-responsive after a while when running f11 preview
 inside a VM (F10 host)
Message-ID: <gtbh4i$5r1$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hi,

I've been experiencing the following issue with rawhide and now f11
preview for a good while. Namely, after some time from login, the
desktop will stop responding in a really strange way:
- windows already present on the desktop will keep refreshing their contents
- cursor will continue to move
- it is no longer possible to move windows around or start new applications
- it is possible to switch consoles
Restarting the X helps, at least for a short while. I was not able to
find anything useful in the logs. Is there a way I can figure out what
the hell is going on so that I could submit a meaningful bug report?

Thanks,
Julian



From lfarkas at lfarkas.org  Thu Apr 30 07:39:28 2009
From: lfarkas at lfarkas.org (Farkas Levente)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:39:28 +0200
Subject: distro release and reproduceability
In-Reply-To: <20090430053829.GA21986@auslistsprd01.us.dell.com>
References: <49F784B7.4030806@lfarkas.org>
	<20090430053829.GA21986@auslistsprd01.us.dell.com>
Message-ID: <49F955B0.1060004@lfarkas.org>

Matt Domsch wrote:
> Some projects such as openSUSE do throw a lot of compute resources at
> the problem, rebuilding all dependent packages in the chain when a
> lower-level package is rebuilt.  Fedora hasn't felt the need to go
> quite this far.
> 
> Between the FTBFS build runs that I do, and the mass rebuilds that the
> Release Engineering team did for Fedora 11, and those that Jacob has
> done when major gcc changes are about ready, nearly all (but not
> exactly all) packages can be rebuilt as expected.  The few (and it was
> < 5% last time I looked, maybe significantly fewer even than that
> after the F11 rebuilds) are quite problematic and mostly bit-rotten
> code that people still have need for but upstream is stagnent.

that's the problem. currently there're 7486 package in rawhide which
means 5% ~= 375 package which is rather large number. imho these package
should have to removed or fixed. and to avoid it at least create a new
automatic bugzilla entry for these packages.

-- 
  Levente                               "Si vis pacem para bellum!"



From pmatilai at laiskiainen.org  Thu Apr 30 07:41:28 2009
From: pmatilai at laiskiainen.org (Panu Matilainen)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:41:28 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: rpm-4.6 and brp-python-bytecompile?
In-Reply-To: <gtb29b$82h$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gt65qk$fvm$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090428153619.GB54853@redhat.com>
	<gtac15$dp7$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904300008000.25683@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>
	<gtb29b$82h$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0904301031170.29123@gotcha.dreamhost.com>

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:

> Panu Matilainen wrote:
>> redhat-rpm-config defines RH/Fedora build policy/configuration. Rpm itself
>> doesn't give a damn where that configuration comes from and is fully
>> functional without it. It's just that rpm upstream build "policy" doesn't
>> match Fedora's.
>
> But Fedora's rpm(-build) RPM should really require redhat-rpm-config.

Well, redhat-rpm-config is required to build "Fedora compliant" packages 
(whatever that means) but it is not required to build packages generally.

A semi-reasonable middle-ground might be adding a virtual provide such as 
"system-rpm-config" to redhat-rpm-config and have rpm-build depend on 
that. It's not correct either as rpmbuild is functional without extra 
configuration, but it at least leaves users the option of replacing the 
Fedora build policy with something else.

 	- Panu -



From mail at robertoragusa.it  Thu Apr 30 08:52:36 2009
From: mail at robertoragusa.it (Roberto Ragusa)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:52:36 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>
	<1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>

Adam Williamson wrote:

> We're circling. I already said that even if it doesn't really matter
> which option you pick, making someone make a decision they don't
> understand frustrates them. That's the problem, not the 'danger' that
> they might pick the 'wrong choice'.

Eh eh, the discussion is about giving a user the choice to select
the desktop he wants.

The GNOME desktop tries to avoid user choices.
The KDE desktop tries to encourage user choices.

And the decision on allowing a desktop choice divides people
in two camps:
1) those that think the user should not choose
2) those that think the user should have to choose

I'd bet people in 1) are GNOME users and people in 2) are KDE users.

I'm in 2) and I'm a KDE user, I'd guess you instead use GNOME ;-)

It is not a cliche, it is really a different way to approach things,
and it is showing at the choice-about-choice level too.

The no-choice position is intrinsically stronger, because
it is in some way recursive:
- no choice
- no choice about having choices
- no choice about the choice of having choices
...

On the other way, the other approach is more aligned to
the freedom ideal that Fedora wants to inspire.

IMHO.

:-)

Best regards.

-- 
   Roberto Ragusa    mail at robertoragusa.it



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 30 09:18:30 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:48:30 +0530
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>	<1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
Message-ID: <49F96CE6.5090504@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/30/2009 02:22 PM, Roberto Ragusa wrote:
> Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
>> We're circling. I already said that even if it doesn't really matter
>> which option you pick, making someone make a decision they don't
>> understand frustrates them. That's the problem, not the 'danger' that
>> they might pick the 'wrong choice'.
> 
> Eh eh, the discussion is about giving a user the choice to select
> the desktop he wants.

Not really. Users clearly already have the choice. If you like KDE, pick
the KDE Live CD which is prominently highlighted in the download page.

This discussion is about forcing the user to pick one by emphasizing
political correctness by not picking defaults which is the worst of all
possible choices. I don't see why I shouldn't ask for Xfce and ratpoison
as among the choices offered if we are going to take this line of
argument further. What about offering the choice of emacs or vi and
asking the user to pick one before proceeding with the installation?

> The GNOME desktop tries to avoid user choices.
> The KDE desktop tries to encourage user choices.
> 
> And the decision on allowing a desktop choice divides people
> in two camps:
> 1) those that think the user should not choose
> 2) those that think the user should have to choose

> 
> I'd bet people in 1) are GNOME users and people in 2) are KDE users.
> 
> I'm in 2) and I'm a KDE user, I'd guess you instead use GNOME ;-)

This is a broad misgeneralization especially since these desktop
environment learn from each other all the time and have even converged
on a look and feel or some standards or share implementation details in
many cases. The personal choice of a desktop environment is far more
nuanced than can be adequately described in a installer (ie) that is the
wrong place to describe them.

Rahul



From nikolay at vladimiroff.com  Thu Apr 30 09:26:03 2009
From: nikolay at vladimiroff.com (Nikolay Vladimirov)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:26:03 +0300
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>
	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>
	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>
	<1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
Message-ID: <a2e85ed0904300226i64ba8a7bk7bc48da5ab4ee3cf@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/30 Roberto Ragusa <mail at robertoragusa.it>:
> Adam Williamson wrote:
>
>> We're circling. I already said that even if it doesn't really matter
>> which option you pick, making someone make a decision they don't
>> understand frustrates them. That's the problem, not the 'danger' that
>> they might pick the 'wrong choice'.
>
> Eh eh, the discussion is about giving a user the choice to select
> the desktop he wants.
>
> The GNOME desktop tries to avoid user choices.
> The KDE desktop tries to encourage user choices.
>
> And the decision on allowing a desktop choice divides people
> in two camps:
> 1) those that think the user should not choose
> 2) those that think the user should have to choose
>
> I'd bet people in 1) are GNOME users and people in 2) are KDE users.
>
> I'm in 2) and I'm a KDE user, I'd guess you instead use GNOME ;-)
>
> It is not a cliche, it is really a different way to approach things,
> and it is showing at the choice-about-choice level too.
>
> The no-choice position is intrinsically stronger, because
> it is in some way recursive:
> - no choice
> - no choice about having choices
> - no choice about the choice of having choices
> ...
>
> On the other way, the other approach is more aligned to
> the freedom ideal that Fedora wants to inspire.
>
> IMHO.
>
> :-)
>
> Best regards.
>
> --
> ? Roberto Ragusa ? ?mail at robertoragusa.it

It's not only about choices.
At the moment KDE is unstable crap and has been since 4.0 . Gnome is
somewhat stable and simple which is great and that's why it should be
the default desktop.
Don't get me wrong I use it on my home Fedora machine and with Kubuntu
in my day job and I do like it. Also one good thing I noticed in
Fedora's KDE is that the nm-applet is from gnome. In kubuntu there is
some replacement that looks prettier but it's total crap. In KDE you
don't get nice audio or video player. Amarok is worse than awful so
are most of the video players. And so on...

One thing that really must be addressed is that if I want to install
KDE I have to go trough all the trouble to remove all the gnome stuff
which is a lot of clicking. A different set of applications is needed
for every DE. And it will be good if there is some meta grouping of
the applications.

On the installation methods I always use netinstall since I have 6-8
MB/s bandwidth to my local fedora mirror. So I get all the stuff in
the anaconda package selection. It should be fairly easy to say: I
want "Minimal Install" or "I want [Gnome|XFCE|LXDE|SUGAR|KDE]" And all
the packages selected by that choice should intended for this DE. I
don't want rhythmbox in KDE or evolution.

-- 
NV



From steven.moix at axianet.ch  Thu Apr 30 09:27:59 2009
From: steven.moix at axianet.ch (Steven Moix)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:27:59 +0200
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <1241034706.16662.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com> <49F88C7A.7030005@hidayahonline.org>
	<gta9bb$75i$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1241034706.16662.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1241083679.2975.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 15:51 -0400, Dan Williams wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 14:21 -0500, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> > Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > > When I had this problem with F11 Beta, the issue could not be fixed via
> > > the GUI.  I had to edit /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0 and
> > > enable onboot for the connection.
> > > 
> > > Is this same or is it editable via the GUI now?
> > 
> > By "the GUI", do you mean NM or system-config-network? I want to say the 
> > latter should work, don't know about the former.
> 
> nm-connection-editor in F11 is able to read and write ifcfg files for
> wired and wireless connections.

Currently it doesn't work via the NM GUI, it fires up an SELinux
denial...should I file a bug against some SELinux policy?

Steven



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 30 09:37:02 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:07:02 +0530
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <1241083679.2975.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com>
	<49F88C7A.7030005@hidayahonline.org>	<gta9bb$75i$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1241034706.16662.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241083679.2975.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F9713E.6040308@fedoraproject.org>

On 04/30/2009 02:57 PM, Steven Moix wrote:

> 
> Currently it doesn't work via the NM GUI, it fires up an SELinux
> denial...should I file a bug against some SELinux policy?

Yes, please do.

Rahul



From mefoster at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 09:34:06 2009
From: mefoster at gmail.com (Mary Ellen Foster)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:34:06 +0100
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <49F9713E.6040308@fedoraproject.org>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com> 
	<49F88C7A.7030005@hidayahonline.org> <gta9bb$75i$1@ger.gmane.org> 
	<1241034706.16662.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241083679.2975.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
	<49F9713E.6040308@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <f58861e00904300234r1403e6c3t3c73a0f6e07dfda1@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/30 Rahul Sundaram <sundaram at fedoraproject.org>:
> On 04/30/2009 02:57 PM, Steven Moix wrote:
>
>>
>> Currently it doesn't work via the NM GUI, it fires up an SELinux
>> denial...should I file a bug against some SELinux policy?
>
> Yes, please do.

I thought that was fixed ...
    https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497278

MEF

-- 
Mary Ellen Foster  --  http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/mef/
ICCS, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



From steven.moix at axianet.ch  Thu Apr 30 10:05:17 2009
From: steven.moix at axianet.ch (Steven Moix)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:05:17 +0200
Subject: Network Manager in F11 Preview
In-Reply-To: <f58861e00904300234r1403e6c3t3c73a0f6e07dfda1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfdeacfa0904290812u278c5f81o38b0a4943e64b9f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241019876.8214.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F87706.9070509@cchtml.com>  <49F88C7A.7030005@hidayahonline.org>
	<gta9bb$75i$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1241034706.16662.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241083679.2975.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F9713E.6040308@fedoraproject.org>
	<f58861e00904300234r1403e6c3t3c73a0f6e07dfda1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1241085917.3684.20.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 10:34 +0100, Mary Ellen Foster wrote:
> 2009/4/30 Rahul Sundaram <sundaram at fedoraproject.org>:
> > On 04/30/2009 02:57 PM, Steven Moix wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Currently it doesn't work via the NM GUI, it fires up an SELinux
> >> denial...should I file a bug against some SELinux policy?
> >
> > Yes, please do.
> 
> I thought that was fixed ...
>     https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497278
> 
> MEF

I just updated my rawhide to selinux-policy 3.6.12-23 and it was fixed
indeed.

Steven



From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 10:17:13 2009
From: billcrawford1970 at gmail.com (Bill Crawford)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:17:13 +0100
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>	<1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
Message-ID: <49F97AA9.60601@googlemail.com>

Roberto Ragusa wrote:
...
> The GNOME desktop tries to avoid user choices.
> The KDE desktop tries to encourage user choices.
> 
> And the decision on allowing a desktop choice divides people
> in two camps:
> 1) those that think the user should not choose
> 2) those that think the user should have to choose
> 
> I'd bet people in 1) are GNOME users and people in 2) are KDE users.

On the whole, however, I'm in the "those who think the user should be 
allowed to choose" camp ;o)



From wm161 at wm161.net  Thu Apr 30 11:21:36 2009
From: wm161 at wm161.net (Trever Fischer)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:21:36 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F96CE6.5090504@fedoraproject.org>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
	<49F96CE6.5090504@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <200904300721.47290.wm161@wm161.net>

On Thursday 30 April 2009 5:18:30 am Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 04/30/2009 02:22 PM, Roberto Ragusa wrote:
> > Adam Williamson wrote:
> >> We're circling. I already said that even if it doesn't really matter
> >> which option you pick, making someone make a decision they don't
> >> understand frustrates them. That's the problem, not the 'danger' that
> >> they might pick the 'wrong choice'.
> >
> > Eh eh, the discussion is about giving a user the choice to select
> > the desktop he wants.
>
> Not really. Users clearly already have the choice. If you like KDE, pick
> the KDE Live CD which is prominently highlighted in the download page.
You mean that tiny "KDE fans, go here!" box on the side? Compared to the main 
"desktop edition" download link, its hardly visible.
>
> This discussion is about forcing the user to pick one by emphasizing
> political correctness by not picking defaults which is the worst of all
> possible choices. I don't see why I shouldn't ask for Xfce and ratpoison
> as among the choices offered if we are going to take this line of
> argument further. What about offering the choice of emacs or vi and
> asking the user to pick one before proceeding with the installation?
Its already been discussed that adding Xfce and an "other" choice to the list 
is reasonable. A clueless newbie won't know what ratpoison is (and in all 
honesty, probably will have no idea how to use it) so hiding it behind a "I 
know exactly what I'm doing, so don't give me one. Just let me pick exactly 
the packages I want" option is best.

Please don't try and make this into another pointless argument thread. Keep 
emacs and vi out of it. The whole idea of this thread is to give a new user 
the choice to pick between a desktop environment. Chances are, the terminal 
will scare them so a text-based editor won't matter much. Either way, my 
experience dictates that most new users start out with nano before jumping to 
vi or emacs. Before this turns into another pulseaudio/c-a-b thread, consider 
that point moot.
>
> > The GNOME desktop tries to avoid user choices.
> > The KDE desktop tries to encourage user choices.
> >
> > And the decision on allowing a desktop choice divides people
> > in two camps:
> > 1) those that think the user should not choose
> > 2) those that think the user should have to choose
> >
> >
> > I'd bet people in 1) are GNOME users and people in 2) are KDE users.
> >
> > I'm in 2) and I'm a KDE user, I'd guess you instead use GNOME ;-)
>
> This is a broad misgeneralization especially since these desktop
> environment learn from each other all the time and have even converged
> on a look and feel or some standards or share implementation details in
> many cases. The personal choice of a desktop environment is far more
> nuanced than can be adequately described in a installer (ie) that is the
> wrong place to describe them.
Oxygen and Clearlooks look pretty different to me. At any rate, giving the user 
a choice is many times better than not. If we force the GNOME desktop down the 
throats of everyone, it ends up reducing KDE4 to a second-class citizen. I 
personally think adding a kind of 'Take a tour' section to the installer for 
KDE and GNOME, complete with screenshots, is a good way to go. We'll let each 
desktop highlight the key points and features of why a user should use one 
over the other. Picking a desktop shouldn't be a quick and impulsive "ooh, 
shiny screenshot" action with only two lines of text to back it up.
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From wm161 at wm161.net  Thu Apr 30 11:29:48 2009
From: wm161 at wm161.net (Trever Fischer)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:29:48 -0400
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <a2e85ed0904300226i64ba8a7bk7bc48da5ab4ee3cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
	<a2e85ed0904300226i64ba8a7bk7bc48da5ab4ee3cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904300729.55500.wm161@wm161.net>

On Thursday 30 April 2009 5:26:03 am Nikolay Vladimirov wrote:
> 2009/4/30 Roberto Ragusa <mail at robertoragusa.it>:
> > Adam Williamson wrote:
> >> We're circling. I already said that even if it doesn't really matter
> >> which option you pick, making someone make a decision they don't
> >> understand frustrates them. That's the problem, not the 'danger' that
> >> they might pick the 'wrong choice'.
> >
> > Eh eh, the discussion is about giving a user the choice to select
> > the desktop he wants.
> >
> > The GNOME desktop tries to avoid user choices.
> > The KDE desktop tries to encourage user choices.
> >
> > And the decision on allowing a desktop choice divides people
> > in two camps:
> > 1) those that think the user should not choose
> > 2) those that think the user should have to choose
> >
> > I'd bet people in 1) are GNOME users and people in 2) are KDE users.
> >
> > I'm in 2) and I'm a KDE user, I'd guess you instead use GNOME ;-)
> >
> > It is not a cliche, it is really a different way to approach things,
> > and it is showing at the choice-about-choice level too.
> >
> > The no-choice position is intrinsically stronger, because
> > it is in some way recursive:
> > - no choice
> > - no choice about having choices
> > - no choice about the choice of having choices
> > ...
> >
> > On the other way, the other approach is more aligned to
> > the freedom ideal that Fedora wants to inspire.
> >
> > IMHO.
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Best regards.
> >
> > --
> >   Roberto Ragusa    mail at robertoragusa.it
>
> It's not only about choices.
> At the moment KDE is unstable crap and has been since 4.0 . Gnome is
> somewhat stable and simple which is great and that's why it should be
> the default desktop.
This is obviously subject to personal opinion. The only unstability I 
currently get are due to the fact I use kdesvn-build to have the latest SVN. A 
friend of mine uses Fedora KDE on his netbook and is quite happy with it. 
Another uses 4.2 on gentoo and is also happy as a clam. KDE is just as stable 
as GNOME. The only problems one might find in fedora is that it doesn't get the 
same amount of love that your average fedora dev gives GNOME. Putting KDE up 
there with the same rank as GNOME should work to fix that.

> Don't get me wrong I use it on my home Fedora machine and with Kubuntu
> in my day job and I do like it. Also one good thing I noticed in
> Fedora's KDE is that the nm-applet is from gnome. In kubuntu there is
> some replacement that looks prettier but it's total crap. In KDE you
> don't get nice audio or video player. Amarok is worse than awful so
> are most of the video players. And so on...
No nice AV player? You mean like Dragon Player? And if Amarok is so awful, I'm 
sure the developers would be glad to hear why. They're constantly taking 
feedback and using it to stop everyone's complaining.
>
> One thing that really must be addressed is that if I want to install
> KDE I have to go trough all the trouble to remove all the gnome stuff
> which is a lot of clicking. A different set of applications is needed
> for every DE. And it will be good if there is some meta grouping of
> the applications.
>
> On the installation methods I always use netinstall since I have 6-8
> MB/s bandwidth to my local fedora mirror. So I get all the stuff in
> the anaconda package selection. It should be fairly easy to say: I
> want "Minimal Install" or "I want [Gnome|XFCE|LXDE|SUGAR|KDE]" And all
> the packages selected by that choice should intended for this DE. I
> don't want rhythmbox in KDE or evolution.

So, I'm kinda confused here. Are you /for/ or /against/ promoting KDE to be on 
the same level as GNOME? Just wondering.
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From nikolay at vladimiroff.com  Thu Apr 30 12:18:09 2009
From: nikolay at vladimiroff.com (Nikolay Vladimirov)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:18:09 +0300
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <200904300729.55500.wm161@wm161.net>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
	<a2e85ed0904300226i64ba8a7bk7bc48da5ab4ee3cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904300729.55500.wm161@wm161.net>
Message-ID: <a2e85ed0904300518rc0d76e8l84487e369476780c@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/30 Trever Fischer <wm161 at wm161.net>:

> This is obviously subject to personal opinion. The only unstability I
> currently get are due to the fact I use kdesvn-build to have the latest SVN. A
> friend of mine uses Fedora KDE on his netbook and is quite happy with it.
> Another uses 4.2 on gentoo and is also happy as a clam. KDE is just as stable
> as GNOME. The only problems one might find in fedora is that it doesn't get the
> same amount of love that your average fedora dev gives GNOME. Putting KDE up
> there with the same rank as GNOME should work to fix that.

You're right it's just the experience I have which may be cause by a
lot of other components like intel video drivers and so on.
On average I get 0.5 total KDE crashes a day and about 1 kde
application crashes per day. While in gnome those are per week.
It's just my observation on several machines that Gnome is more
stable. I have  feedback from only 4 KDE machines which is not enough
to state that "KDE is unstable crap". I admit that.

I don't think that just promoting KDE as first rank DE for Fedora will
get devs to work on it more that they do now.

> No nice AV player? You mean like Dragon Player? And if Amarok is so awful, I'm
> sure the developers would be glad to hear why. They're constantly taking
> feedback and using it to stop everyone's complaining.

I don't like dragon player this may be somewhat personal. At the
moment I use mplayer without GUI or totem, both are great.
In my opinion the videoplayback trough plasma is somewhat slow (both
xine and gstreamer) and buggy.
The amarok developers get a lot of feedback and all the things I don't
like are known to them and they will be fixed eventually. Amarok  2.1
will bring the first bulk of goodness but it's just some work that
needs to be done and it takes time.
At the moment amarok is usable but nowhere near banshee or rhythmbox
or amarok 1.4 was.

>> One thing that really must be addressed is that if I want to install
>> KDE I have to go trough all the trouble to remove all the gnome stuff
>> which is a lot of clicking. A different set of applications is needed
>> for every DE. And it will be good if there is some meta grouping of
>> the applications.
>>
>> On the installation methods I always use netinstall since I have 6-8
>> MB/s bandwidth to my local fedora mirror. So I get all the stuff in
>> the anaconda package selection. It should be fairly easy to say: I
>> want "Minimal Install" or "I want [Gnome|XFCE|LXDE|SUGAR|KDE]" And all
>> the packages selected by that choice should intended for this DE. I
>> don't want rhythmbox in KDE or evolution.
>
> So, I'm kinda confused here. Are you /for/ or /against/ promoting KDE to be on
> the same level as GNOME? Just wondering.

Gnome should be the default but it must be very easy to click "KDE"
and have that without any fuzz.

My point is that it will be good if I can select for example KDE in
anaconda and the selected packages to be ones in the KDE LiveCD Spin
for ex. Same stands for XFCE and others. And by selecting a DE you get
only the applications that are specific to your DE without the Default
selected packages that are good for GNOME.

On a side note this may be a little harsh but can we be realistic and
say that an unexperienced user will only go to Fedora by mistake and
actually all newbies use ubuntu. So no need to really care that much
about users who don't know what Desktop environment is and explain to
them about different ones in the installer. This is pointless.

For ex this guy I work with uses ubuntu. And yesterday he saw me
playing around with some plasmoids and he said:
- Cool. What's that?
- KDE
- Uh?
- Like you use Gnome as DE and this is different and it's called KDE.
- Uh? I use ubuntu.
- Um....... actually this is Kubuntu.
- Oh, Ok.


-- 
NV



From fedora at matbooth.co.uk  Thu Apr 30 13:28:10 2009
From: fedora at matbooth.co.uk (Mat Booth)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:28:10 +0100
Subject: Fedora 11 Preview Release announcement
In-Reply-To: <49F8B687.9050102@robertoragusa.it>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904280940240.9793@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240940619.2567.139.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1241028268.3139.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F8B687.9050102@robertoragusa.it>
Message-ID: <9497e9990904300628s591b87c2t4044f1f2460a061f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Roberto Ragusa <mail at robertoragusa.it> wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
>> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 18:43 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
>>> I'm sorry, I can't hear you. Can you turn it up a bit?
>>>
>>> What do you mean, it won't go any louder? The _last_ release used to go
>>> louder.
>>
>> This release already goes up to 11...
>
> This "goes up to 11" thing started a lot of time ago; IIRC the choice
> of the name for F10 was influenced by the idea to "prepare the way"
> for this joke.
>
> What I find somewhat amusing and finely ironic is that the
> release is approaching and the most debated issue (with hundreds
> of messages) is.... how the audio level should be controlled by
> the mixer.
>
> 8-)
>

And if that's the biggest problem with Fedora, we're not doing too badly. :-)

-- 
Mat Booth
www.matbooth.co.uk



From ajax at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 13:50:11 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:50:11 -0400
Subject: X becomes non-responsive after a while when running f11
 preview inside a VM (F10 host)
In-Reply-To: <gtbh4i$5r1$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gtbh4i$5r1$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1241099411.15907.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 08:40 +0200, Julian Sikorski wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've been experiencing the following issue with rawhide and now f11
> preview for a good while. Namely, after some time from login, the
> desktop will stop responding in a really strange way:
> - windows already present on the desktop will keep refreshing their contents
> - cursor will continue to move
> - it is no longer possible to move windows around or start new applications
> - it is possible to switch consoles

This sounds like the window manager has become wedged.  What are you
using?  metacity, compiz, something else?

- ajax
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From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr 30 14:37:03 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:37:03 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>	<1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
	<49F96CE6.5090504@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <gtcd2h$rek$1@ger.gmane.org>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Not really. Users clearly already have the choice. If you like KDE, pick
> the KDE Live CD which is prominently highlighted in the download page.

s/prominently highlighted/hidden behind a tiny button/
The current download page sucks terribly, the previous one was a lot better.
(It just needed an s/Desktop Edition/GNOME Edition/, the one suggested
change which was not made...)

> This discussion is about forcing the user to pick one by emphasizing
> political correctness by not picking defaults which is the worst of all
> possible choices.

Why? If they don't care, they can just click "Next" on the pre-checked GNOME
radiobutton (and I guess that if they really don't know what to pick or
don't want to make a choice, they probably fit straight into GNOME's target
userbase, so I don't object to making GNOME the preselected button). I
really don't see how a "select your desktop environment" screen in the DVD
would be a problem.

> I don't see why I shouldn't ask for Xfce and ratpoison as among the
> choices offered if we are going to take this line of argument further.

Why not offer XFCE there? Some other distros do it. Of course, XFCE needs to
be on the DVD if that is to happen; the DVD can obviously only offer what's
actually on the DVD (unless you're using the Everything repository). The
same goes for LXDE.

I agree that offering all the WM-only options and especially ones like
ratpoison as radiobuttons doesn't scale. That's not what we're suggesting,
it's about complete desktop environments.

> What about offering the choice of emacs or vi and asking the user to pick
> one before proceeding with the installation?

This has nothing to do with the choice of desktop environment. FWIW, I think
neither should be installed by default, users should be taught to use the
GUI text editor coming with the desktop environment. For a text-mode
fallback, nano is good enough. But that's not related to this discussion.

>> The GNOME desktop tries to avoid user choices.
>> The KDE desktop tries to encourage user choices.
>> 
>> And the decision on allowing a desktop choice divides people
>> in two camps:
>> 1) those that think the user should not choose
>> 2) those that think the user should have to choose
> 
>> 
>> I'd bet people in 1) are GNOME users and people in 2) are KDE users.
>> 
>> I'm in 2) and I'm a KDE user, I'd guess you instead use GNOME ;-)
> 
> This is a broad misgeneralization especially since these desktop
> environment learn from each other all the time and have even converged
> on a look and feel or some standards or share implementation details in
> many cases.

That's not true. GNOME is intentionally making some things not configurable,
this is not likely to change any time soon. KDE is not going down that way.
The lack of some options in KDE 4.0 and, to some extent, 4.1 has been
misinterpreted as an intentional decision to align on GNOME, but that was
never the intention. The options were just missing because the features
they enable hadn't been implemented in Plasma yet! How KDE 4 really dealt
with some of the long lists of settings from KDE 3 is that they rearranged
them into better categorizations: they're still there, just no longer as
a "long list" interface. KDE is not an "options are bad" desktop, and won't
be any time soon.

        Kevin Kofler



From Matt_Domsch at dell.com  Thu Apr 30 14:39:34 2009
From: Matt_Domsch at dell.com (Matt Domsch)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:39:34 -0500
Subject: distro release and reproduceability
In-Reply-To: <49F955B0.1060004@lfarkas.org>
References: <49F784B7.4030806@lfarkas.org>
	<20090430053829.GA21986@auslistsprd01.us.dell.com>
	<49F955B0.1060004@lfarkas.org>
Message-ID: <20090430143934.GA26393@auslistsprd01.us.dell.com>

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 09:39:28AM +0200, Farkas Levente wrote:
> Matt Domsch wrote:
> > Some projects such as openSUSE do throw a lot of compute resources at
> > the problem, rebuilding all dependent packages in the chain when a
> > lower-level package is rebuilt.  Fedora hasn't felt the need to go
> > quite this far.
> > 
> > Between the FTBFS build runs that I do, and the mass rebuilds that the
> > Release Engineering team did for Fedora 11, and those that Jacob has
> > done when major gcc changes are about ready, nearly all (but not
> > exactly all) packages can be rebuilt as expected.  The few (and it was
> > < 5% last time I looked, maybe significantly fewer even than that
> > after the F11 rebuilds) are quite problematic and mostly bit-rotten
> > code that people still have need for but upstream is stagnent.
> 
> that's the problem. currently there're 7486 package in rawhide which
> means 5% ~= 375 package which is rather large number. imho these package
> should have to removed or fixed. and to avoid it at least create a new
> automatic bugzilla entry for these packages.

I'd love to have 100% rebuilt and rebuildable, no question.  But there
are only so many hours in the day.

http://jkeating.fedorapeople.org/needed-f11-rebuilds.html
shows 189 packages as of 4/22 which were not rebuilt for F11, 2.5% of
the total.  So we've made great progress.  When I started doing my
FTBFS runs, it wasn't unusual for there to be nearly 1000 that
couldn't rebuild properly.  Having that down 80% is a huge win.

If you'd care to work with the maintainers on the remaining 189
packages, such that at the beginning of F12 development they're all
rebuildable, we'd welcome that help.

Thanks,
Matt

-- 
Matt Domsch
Linux Technology Strategist, Dell Office of the CTO
linux.dell.com & www.dell.com/linux



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr 30 14:42:42 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:42:42 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>
	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>
	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>
	<1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
	<a2e85ed0904300226i64ba8a7bk7bc48da5ab4ee3cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gtcdd2$rek$3@ger.gmane.org>

Nikolay Vladimirov wrote:
> Also one good thing I noticed in Fedora's KDE is that the nm-applet is
> from gnome. In kubuntu there is some replacement that looks prettier but
> it's total crap.

FYI, we want to ship a native KDE 4 NM plasmoid in F12. We wanted to get it
into F11 already, but it's just not ready yet. (And if Kubuntu is indeed
shipping that, then I'm not surprised you find it "total crap" at this
stage; unfortunately, it's still reported to be very buggy.)

        Kevin Kofler



From kevin.kofler at chello.at  Thu Apr 30 14:40:56 2009
From: kevin.kofler at chello.at (Kevin Kofler)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:40:56 +0200
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
	<a2e85ed0904300226i64ba8a7bk7bc48da5ab4ee3cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904300729.55500.wm161@wm161.net>
	<a2e85ed0904300518rc0d76e8l84487e369476780c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gtcd9p$rek$2@ger.gmane.org>

Nikolay Vladimirov wrote:
> In my opinion the videoplayback trough plasma is somewhat slow (both
> xine and gstreamer) and buggy.

That would be Phonon, not Plasma.

And I'm sure the developers would like to know the specifics of the "buggy"
part. The "slow" part might also be fixable.

        Kevin Kofler



From rawhide at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 30 15:19:17 2009
From: rawhide at fedoraproject.org (Rawhide Report)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:19:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: rawhide report: 20090430 changes
Message-ID: <20090430151917.3EA9D1B8003@releng2.fedora.phx.redhat.com>

Compose started at Thu Apr 30 06:15:04 UTC 2009

New package pdf2djvu
        PDF to DjVu converter
New package postgresql-pgpool-ha
        Pgpool-HA uses heartbeat to keep pgpool from being a single point of failure
New package python-shout
        Python bindings for libshout 2
Updated Packages:

MyPasswordSafe-0.6.7-8.20061216.fc11
------------------------------------
* Sat Apr 25 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.6.7-8.20061216
- Fix FTBFS: added MyPasswordSafe-20090425-gcc44.patch

* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.6.7-7.20061216
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


R-GeneR-2.13.1-2.fc11
---------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 2.13.1-2
- Fix FTBFS: added R-GeneR-gcc44.patch.
- Do not override the release macro.
- Use %global instead of %define.

* Tue Mar 31 2009 pingou <pingou at pingoured.fr> - 2.13.1-1
- Update to 2.13.1 from the devel version of bioconductor

* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 2.12.0-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


Sprog-0.14-16.fc11
------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.14-15
- Fix FTBFS: fixed failing test in %check
- Consistent usage of tabs/spaces in specfile

* Tue Apr 21 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.14-16
- Added missing R: perl(Gnome2::Canvas), resolves BZ#468548.

* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.14-14
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


batik-1.7-4.fc11
----------------
* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.7-4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


bind-9.6.1-0.3.b1.fc11
----------------------
* Wed Apr 29 2009 Martin Nagy <mnagy redhat com> 32:9.6.1-0.3.b1
- update the patch for dynamic loading of database backends
- create %{_libdir}/bind directory
- copy default named.conf to doc directory, shared with s-c-bind (atkac)


boo-0.8.1.2865-6.fc11
---------------------
* Mon Apr 20 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.8.1.2865-6
- Fix FTBFS: added boo-mono.patch

* Mon Feb 23 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.1.2865-5
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


cone-0.75-5.fc11
----------------
* Sun Apr 19 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.75-5
- Updated cone-gcc44.patch according to upstream wishes.

* Sat Apr 18 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.75-4
- Fix FTBFS: added cone-gcc44.patch

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.75-3
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


ctapi-cyberjack-3.3.0-6.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 29 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 3.3.0-6
- Fix FTBFS: added ctapi-cyberjack-gcc44.patch

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 3.3.0-5
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


darkice-0.19-5.fc11
-------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.19-5
- Fix FTBFS: added darkice-0.19-gcc44.patch

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.19-4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


fedora-ksplice-0.5-5.fc11
-------------------------
* Wed Apr 29 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 0.5-4
- Exclude ppc64 and ppc as Architetures

* Wed Apr 29 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> - 0.5-5
- Build only for x86_64 and %{ix86}


fldigi-3.10-3.fc11
------------------
* Sat Apr 25 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 3.10-3
- Fix FTBFS: added fldigi-gcc44.patch

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 3.10-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


gnome-desktop-2.26.1-4.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Apr 29 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-3
- Fix needle/haystack confusion causing most monitors to be 'Unknown'

* Wed Apr 29 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-4
- Remove debug spew


gnome-screensaver-2.26.1-2.fc11
-------------------------------
* Wed Apr 29 2009 Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-2
- Update the 'hide xscreensaver' hack to work with current
  packages and menus  (#455951)


gnome-settings-daemon-2.26.1-3.fc11
-----------------------------------
* Wed Apr 29 2009 Bastien Nocera <bnocera at redhat.com> 2.26.1-2
- Don't set touchpads to be left-handed, otherwise the tap
  behaves like the 2nd mouse button (#483639)

* Wed Apr 29 2009 Matthias Clasen  <mclasen at redhat.com> - 2.26.1-3
- Make custom keybindings work better (#497725)


gnome-specimen-0.3-4.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.3-4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


gnomesword-2.4.1-3.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 2.4.1-3
- Fix FTBFS: added gnomesword-gcc44.patch

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 2.4.1-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


incollector-1.0-8.fc11
----------------------
* Tue Apr 28 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 1.0-8
- Fix FTBFS: added incollector-mono.patch.
- Added explicit R: mono-core (resolves BZ#469602).

* Tue Feb 24 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.0-7
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


itpp-4.0.6-1.fc11
-----------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 4.0.6-1
- Fix FTBFS:
- Update to 4.0.6 bugfix release
- Dropped itpp-gcc43.patch (merged upstream).
- Added itpp-gcc44.patch

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 4.0.0-7
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


jakarta-commons-el-1.0-10.5.fc11
--------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0:1.0-10.5
- Fix FTBFS: added BR: tomcat5-jsp-2.0-api (resolves BZ#497179).

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0:1.0-10.4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


javahelp2-2.0.05-7.fc11
-----------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 2.0.05-7
- Fix FTBFS: added BR: servletapi5.
- Fixed wrapper scripts, resolves BZ#479341.

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 2.0.05-6
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


jline-0.9.94-0.3.fc11
---------------------
* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0:0.9.94-0.3
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


kadu-0.6.5-10.fc11
------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.6.5-10
- Fix FTBFS: added kadu-gcc44.patch

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.6.5-9
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


kdebase-workspace-4.2.2-5.fc11
------------------------------
* Tue Apr 28 2009 Luk???? Tinkl <ltinkl at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-5
- #497657 -  kpackagekit/kopete notification misrendering/missing 
  buttons with qt-4.5.1

* Wed Apr 22 2009 Than Ngo <than at redhat.com> - 4.2.2-4
- dropp unused BR on libraw1394, it breaks the build on s390(x)


kdetv-0.8.9-12.fc11
-------------------
* Sat Apr 18 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.8.9-12
- Fix FTBFS: BR kdebase-workspace-devel and look for KDE4 headers in %{_incluedir}/kde4

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.9-11
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


latex2html-2008-2.fc11
----------------------
* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 2008-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


libgeotiff-1.2.5-4.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 1.2.5-4
- Fix FTBFS: use gcc -shared instead of ld -shared to compile with -fstack-protector

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.2.5-3
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


libresample-0.1.3-11.fc11
-------------------------
* Tue Apr 21 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.1.3-11
- Fix FTBFS: fixed failing tests in %check

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.1.3-10
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


log4cxx-0.10.0-7.fc11
---------------------
* Sat Apr 25 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.10.0-7
- Fix FTBFS: updated log4cxx-cstring.patch for gcc 4.4

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.10.0-6
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


metamonitor-0.4.5-7.fc11
------------------------
* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.4.5-7
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


modello-1.0-0.2.a8.4.4.fc11
---------------------------
* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0:1.0-0.2.a8.4.4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


mx4j-3.0.1-8.9.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1:3.0.1-8.9
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


openoffice.org-3.1.0-11.2.fc11
------------------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 1:3.1.0-11.2
- Resolves: rhbz#484177 openoffice.org-3.1.0.ooo101354.filter.xhtml.do-not-label-list-headers.patch
- add openoffice.org-3.1.0.ooo101355.filter.no-variables-in-keys.patch
- Resolves: rhbz#491159 openoffice.org-3.1.0.ooo101379.vcl.qstart.SM.patch
- Resolves: rhbz#497882 implement audio/visual looping stub

* Fri Apr 24 2009 Caol??n McNamara <caolanm at redhat.com> - 1:3.1.0-11.1
- add openoffice.org-3.1.0.ooo90439.sfx2.qstart.hackaround.patch
- add openoffice.org-3.1.0.ooo101159.ww8.export.commentfields.patch
- Resolves: rhbz#473985 - "oocalc this-is-a-dir" finishes immediately
   + add openoffice.org-3.1.0-ooo101274.opening-a-directory.patch
- silence stupid survey dialog


pdftk-1.41-18.fc11
------------------
* Wed Apr 29 2009 Jochen Schmitt <Jochen herr-schmitt de> 1.41-18
- Add bcprov and bcmail to classpath patch (BZ #497986)


perl-Hardware-Vhdl-Tidy-0.8-4.fc11
----------------------------------
* Thu Feb 26 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.8-4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


postgis-1.3.5-3.fc11
--------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 1.3.5-3
- Fix FTBFS: added BR: java-1.5.0-gcj-devel in case of gcj_support

* Thu Feb 26 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.3.5-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


reciteword-0.8.4-5.fc11
-----------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.8.4-5
- Fix FTBFS: added reciteword-gcc44.patch

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.8.4-4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


rhythmbox-0.12.1-2.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Apr 29 2009 - Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> - 0.12.1-2
- Update WKNC urls (#498258)


rlog-1.4-5.fc11
---------------
* Wed Apr 29 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 1.4-5
- Fix FTBFS: do not rebuild docs as it fails on latex

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.4-4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


ruby-ldap-0.9.7-8.fc11
----------------------
* Sun Apr 19 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.9.7-8
- Fix FTBFS: Added ruby-ldap-0.9.7-openldap.patch

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.7-7
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


rxvt-unicode-9.06-3.fc11
------------------------
* Sat Apr 25 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 9.06-3
- Fix FTBFS: added rxvt-unicode-gcc44.patch

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 9.06-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


scribus-1.3.5-0.12.beta.fc11
----------------------------
* Wed Apr 22 2009 Dan Hor??k <dan[AT]danny.cz> - 1.3.5-0.12.beta
- update to 1.3.5.beta
- make docs subpackage noarch
- drop outdated Obsoletes/Provides


seedit-2.2.0-5.fc11
-------------------
* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 2.2.0-5
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


showimg-0.9.5-22.fc11
---------------------
* Sun Apr 19 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.9.5-22
- Fix FTBFS: added showimg-0.9.5-gcc44.patch.

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.9.5-21
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


stardict-3.0.1-17.fc11
----------------------
* Sat Apr 25 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 3.0.1-17
- Fix FTBFS: added stardict-3.0.1.gcc44.patch

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 3.0.1-16
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


sunbird-1.0-0.2.20090302hg.fc11
-------------------------------
* Wed Apr 29 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 1.0-0.2.20090302hg
- Fix the permissions for real now

* Tue Apr 28 2009 Lubomir Rintel <lkundrak at v3.sk> - 1.0-0.1.20090302hg
- Update to version matching current Thunderbird


trousers-0.3.1-15.fc11
----------------------
* Mon Apr 27 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0.3.1-15
- Fix FTBFS: added trousers-0.3.1-gcc44.patch

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0.3.1-14
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


velocity-1.4-8.4.fc11
---------------------
* Fri Apr 24 2009 Milos Jakubicek <xjakub at fi.muni.cz> - 0:1.4-8.4
- Fix FTBFS: added velocity-enum.patch (enum is a reserved keyword in java >= 1.5)

* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0:1.4-8.3
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


ws-commons-util-1.0.1-11.fc11
-----------------------------
* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 1.0.1-11
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


ws-jaxme-0.5.1-3.4.fc11
-----------------------
* Wed Feb 25 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0:0.5.1-3.4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


xdoclet-1.2.3-10.4.fc11
-----------------------
* Thu Feb 26 2009 Fedora Release Engineering <rel-eng at lists.fedoraproject.org> - 0:1.2.3-10.4
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Mass_Rebuild


Summary:
Added Packages: 3
Removed Packages: 0
Modified Packages: 50
Broken deps for i386
----------------------------------------------------------
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libexiv2.so.4
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.i386 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for x86_64
----------------------------------------------------------
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.i386 requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.i386 requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.x86_64 requires libexiv2.so.4()(64bit)
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.x86_64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.x86_64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)



Broken deps for ppc
----------------------------------------------------------
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc requires libcrypto.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.ppc requires libltdl.so.3
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.ppc requires libexiv2.so.4
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libpython2.5.so.1.0
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc requires libssl.so.7



Broken deps for ppc64
----------------------------------------------------------
	cabal2spec-0.12-1.fc11.noarch requires ghc > 0:6.10.1-7
	globus-callout-0.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-openssl-error-0.14-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libcrypto.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-gsi-proxy-ssl-1.5-1.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)
	globus-rsl-5.0-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	globus-xio-2.7-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libltdl.so.3()(64bit)
	gpscorrelate-1.6.0-2.fc10.ppc64 requires libexiv2.so.4()(64bit)
	nssbackup-0.2-0.2.rc7.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-altgraph-0.6.7-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	python-arm4-1.1-5.fc10.ppc64 requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	python-upoints-0.11.0-2.fc10.noarch requires python(abi) = 0:2.5
	sems-ivr-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-python-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libpython2.5.so.1.0()(64bit)
	sems-xmlrpc2di-1.1.0-5.fc10.ppc64 requires libssl.so.7()(64bit)





From jspaleta at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 15:25:05 2009
From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:25:05 -0800
Subject: Fedora 11 Preview Release announcement
In-Reply-To: <9497e9990904300628s591b87c2t4044f1f2460a061f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904280940240.9793@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240940619.2567.139.camel@macbook.infradead.org>
	<1241028268.3139.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49F8B687.9050102@robertoragusa.it>
	<9497e9990904300628s591b87c2t4044f1f2460a061f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <604aa7910904300825w7dc57169pb39a5454063e2e35@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 5:28 AM, Mat Booth <fedora at matbooth.co.uk> wrote:
> And if that's the biggest problem with Fedora, we're not doing too badly. :-)

No the biggest problem is that we still lack out of the box support
for the most important hardware on the planet the Echotek
ECDR-GC314-PCI

-jef



From mcepl at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 15:33:41 2009
From: mcepl at redhat.com (Matej Cepl)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:33:41 +0200
Subject: X becomes non-responsive after a while when running f11 preview
 inside a VM (F10 host)
References: <gtbh4i$5r1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1241099411.15907.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <lvsoc6-qlp.ln1@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz>

On 2009-04-30, 13:50 GMT, Adam Jackson wrote:
> This sounds like the window manager has become wedged.  What 
> are you using?  metacity, compiz, something else?

In the same situation metacity (no composition). Xorg server 
debugging in -test thread.

Mat?j



From james at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 30 15:54:49 2009
From: james at fedoraproject.org (James Antill)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:54:49 -0400
Subject: rpm-4.6 and brp-python-bytecompile?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0904301031170.29123@gotcha.dreamhost.com>
References: <gt65qk$fvm$1@ger.gmane.org> <20090428153619.GB54853@redhat.com>
	<gtac15$dp7$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0904300008000.25683@turre.koti.laiskiainen.org>
	<gtb29b$82h$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<alpine.DEB.1.10.0904301031170.29123@gotcha.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <1241106889.10903.72.camel@code.and.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 10:41 +0300, Panu Matilainen wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> 
> > Panu Matilainen wrote:
> >> redhat-rpm-config defines RH/Fedora build policy/configuration. Rpm itself
> >> doesn't give a damn where that configuration comes from and is fully
> >> functional without it. It's just that rpm upstream build "policy" doesn't
> >> match Fedora's.
> >
> > But Fedora's rpm(-build) RPM should really require redhat-rpm-config.
> 
> Well, redhat-rpm-config is required to build "Fedora compliant" packages 
> (whatever that means) but it is not required to build packages generally.
> 
> A semi-reasonable middle-ground might be adding a virtual provide such as 
> "system-rpm-config" to redhat-rpm-config and have rpm-build depend on 
> that. It's not correct either as rpmbuild is functional without extra 
> configuration, but it at least leaves users the option of replacing the 
> Fedora build policy with something else.

 Another option might be to have fedora-packager require
redhat-rpm-config, which is closer to the correct requires and probably
what people expect.

-- 
James Antill <james at fedoraproject.org>
Fedora



From martin.sourada at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 15:54:23 2009
From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:54:23 +0200
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <2a28d2ab0904281844i7a484678p49b8d850876a4927@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F7AF31.20908@redhat.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904281844i7a484678p49b8d850876a4927@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1241106863.2362.5.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>

On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 21:44 -0400, Dr. Diesel wrote:

> Thanks for confirming.
> 
> Wasn't really sure where to file this, since it hard locks I filed it
> as a Kernel bug:
> 
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=498131
> 
Not really sure if the thing you described is a hard lock, I mean, the
cursor still moves, and if you had the means to, you could probably even
log in via ssh and kill the locked X server which blocks any input. I
was seeing this sometime around Fedora Core 5 or 6 with nvidia card (and
proprietary drivers). Now on intel it is so sparse (like once or twice
per fedora release) and random, and I usually don't have the means to
ssh to my laptop when it happens, that I don't care any more...

Martin
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From martin.sourada at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 16:10:47 2009
From: martin.sourada at gmail.com (Martin Sourada)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:10:47 +0200
Subject: F11 Preview Hard Lock
In-Reply-To: <1241106863.2362.5.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
References: <2a28d2ab0904281818j6ba02eafu802c6516e8f54e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F7AF31.20908@redhat.com>
	<2a28d2ab0904281844i7a484678p49b8d850876a4927@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241106863.2362.5.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <1241107847.2337.11.camel@pc-notebook.kolej.mff.cuni.cz>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 17:54 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 21:44 -0400, Dr. Diesel wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for confirming.
> > 
> > Wasn't really sure where to file this, since it hard locks I filed it
> > as a Kernel bug:
> > 
> > 
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=498131
> > 
> Not really sure if the thing you described is a hard lock, I mean, the
> cursor still moves, and if you had the means to, you could probably even
> log in via ssh and kill the locked X server which blocks any input. I
> was seeing this sometime around Fedora Core 5 or 6 with nvidia card (and
> proprietary drivers). Now on intel it is so sparse (like once or twice
> per fedora release) and random, and I usually don't have the means to
> ssh to my laptop when it happens, that I don't care any more...
> 
> Martin

Ok, and now for some more constructive feedback... I can see this issue
as well on i586 and intel GMA 950. 

HOWEVER 

The page [1] loads fine (although it's complex like hell a takes it a
relatively long time to load) on midori (webkitgtk based) but trying the
same link in epiphany (with xulrunner backend) almost instantly freezes
the desktop with only cursor moving (with the animation stopped) and
music from rhythmbox via pulseaudio still playing. Unfortunately, right
now I also don't have the means to ssh to the laptop so I had to use
hard shutdown...

So I suggest you reassign the bug to xulrunner and let the devs sort out
what exactly is causing this (because even though it happens with XR and
not with WK it might be hitting a bug elsewhere)...

I've added my test results to the bug report [2].

Martin

References:
[1] http://www.wthitv.com/
[2] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=498131
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From belegdol at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 16:15:03 2009
From: belegdol at gmail.com (Julian Sikorski)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:15:03 +0200
Subject: X becomes non-responsive after a while when running f11 preview
 inside a VM (F10 host)
In-Reply-To: <1241099411.15907.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
References: <gtbh4i$5r1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1241099411.15907.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <gtciq7$fgm$1@ger.gmane.org>

Adam Jackson pisze:
> On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 08:40 +0200, Julian Sikorski wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've been experiencing the following issue with rawhide and now f11
>> preview for a good while. Namely, after some time from login, the
>> desktop will stop responding in a really strange way:
>> - windows already present on the desktop will keep refreshing their contents
>> - cursor will continue to move
>> - it is no longer possible to move windows around or start new applications
>> - it is possible to switch consoles
> 
> This sounds like the window manager has become wedged.  What are you
> using?  metacity, compiz, something else?
> 
> - ajax
> 
Metacity, without compositing.

Julian



From belegdol at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 16:50:41 2009
From: belegdol at gmail.com (Julian Sikorski)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:50:41 +0200
Subject: X becomes non-responsive after a while when running f11 preview
 inside a VM (F10 host)
In-Reply-To: <gtciq7$fgm$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gtbh4i$5r1$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1241099411.15907.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<gtciq7$fgm$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <gtckt1$mlu$1@ger.gmane.org>

Julian Sikorski pisze:
> Adam Jackson pisze:
>> On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 08:40 +0200, Julian Sikorski wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I've been experiencing the following issue with rawhide and now f11
>>> preview for a good while. Namely, after some time from login, the
>>> desktop will stop responding in a really strange way:
>>> - windows already present on the desktop will keep refreshing their contents
>>> - cursor will continue to move
>>> - it is no longer possible to move windows around or start new applications
>>> - it is possible to switch consoles
>> This sounds like the window manager has become wedged.  What are you
>> using?  metacity, compiz, something else?
>>
>> - ajax
>>
> Metacity, without compositing.
> 
> Julian
> 
You were right, it's metacity. Killing it brings the machine back to
life. Also, it seems that the bug is often triggered by closing a gnome
terminal tab with ctrl-d.

Julian



From walters at verbum.org  Thu Apr 30 17:18:54 2009
From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:18:54 -0400
Subject: X becomes non-responsive after a while when running f11 preview
	inside a VM (F10 host)
In-Reply-To: <gtckt1$mlu$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gtbh4i$5r1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1241099411.15907.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<gtciq7$fgm$1@ger.gmane.org> <gtckt1$mlu$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <faa16b610904301018x3278a633t2ab2e50cfd1e5ad8@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Julian Sikorski <belegdol at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You were right, it's metacity. Killing it brings the machine back to
> life. Also, it seems that the bug is often triggered by closing a gnome
> terminal tab with ctrl-d.

Hi, when reporting a bug on this issue please see:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/StackTraces

If the machine is stuck in this way the most convenient thing is often
to do a remote login over ssh from a different computer to get the
data.



From pemboa at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 17:36:06 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:36:06 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <a2e85ed0904300226i64ba8a7bk7bc48da5ab4ee3cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>
	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>
	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>
	<1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
	<a2e85ed0904300226i64ba8a7bk7bc48da5ab4ee3cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904301036p2bbca4b5g8f4e8a2476ac8e36@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:26 AM, Nikolay Vladimirov
<nikolay at vladimiroff.com> wrote:
> At the moment KDE is unstable crap and has been since 4.0

I wish you would at least have some evidence to back up that kind of
talk. My KDE 4 desktop does not concur.



From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 17:50:10 2009
From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:50:10 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com> <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com> <gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jesse,

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 12:10 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 08:23 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> > On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 12:13 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> > > I must say that, while I do believe users need to have access to the sound
>> > > card controls exposed by ALSA, the precedent this decision sets worries me.
>> > > It should ultimately be the GNOME Desktop Team's decision to decide what
>> > > goes onto the GNOME spin. I definitely wouldn't be happy if FESCo started
>> > > dictating the contents of the KDE spin.
>> >
>> > I don't see it as dictation. ?I see it as reaching a compromise. ?FESCo
>> > didn't even vote on it until after mclasen agreed to put the mixer
>> > there.
>>
>> Of course, having wwoods threaten to revert the whole VolumeControl
>> feature has nothing to do with it...
>
> Given that wwoods isn't even in FESCo, that'd be a neat trick. ?But
> isn't that the very definition of compromise? ?Two sides each have
> desires that neither side can agree upon. ?Each side makes concessions
> until they meet somewhere in the middle?

OK, so here's the problem with this.  Compromise sometimes works well
when trying to form rough consensus, or for finding the least
disagreeable position for the most people - for politics maybe.
However, it does not work well as a technique for designing products
that people love to use.  When you find the middle ground between
great and awful you don't find good - you find mediocrity and malaise.
 Please read http://headrush.typepad.com/ for more on this topic.

We've been designing compromised products for far too long.  We need
to acknowledge that we can't please everyone all the time and need to
make choices.  We need to resolve to be great - it doesn't just happen
by accident.

Another thing we have here is a classical case of design by committee.
 This "compromise" dictated by FESCO is a design decision.  A decision
that affects the look, feel, behavior, and experience of the desktop.
Firstly, we should be very sceptical that *any* committee can make
great design decisions (see
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000321.html).  Secondly,
this particular committee is simply not qualified to make design
decisions for the desktop - you are all well meaning and very good at
your particular field but frankly not the people that should be
designing our experiences.

In this particular case, there is nothing wrong with telling some
people either: a) you may have to wait for the next release in order
to get the optimal experience or b) go to this wiki page and follow
the instructions to make it work on your somewhat atypical
system/setup.  We simply cannot avoid this if we continue to use a
time-based release process.  There will always be cases where we don't
finish everything we'd like to.  The answer cannot be - let's
compromise our vision and create crappy products.  That is, it cannot
if we ever want to recover marketshare and mindshare from other
distributions (not to mention other/better OS's), and make something
kick-ass that we can be proud of.  The only other option is to move to
a feature and/or goal based release process where you release when
things are done.  However, I'm not sure this is the right thing to do
at this time.

I know you work really hard and care a lot about Fedora, and I'm
picking on you a bit because we all respect you, but honestly the
opinion you expressed is part of what is wrong with Fedora today.  We
have a lot of work to do to make Fedora truly great - and one of the
first and most important things is to make sure we have the mindset
that will allow us to achieve greatness.

Thanks,
Jon



From pemboa at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 17:51:59 2009
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:51:59 -0500
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <49F96CE6.5090504@fedoraproject.org>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>
	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>
	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>
	<1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
	<49F96CE6.5090504@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <16de708d0904301051r647b9f14qc1fe7d343bdbd778@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:18 AM, Rahul Sundaram
<sundaram at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On 04/30/2009 02:22 PM, Roberto Ragusa wrote:
>> Adam Williamson wrote:
>>
>>> We're circling. I already said that even if it doesn't really matter
>>> which option you pick, making someone make a decision they don't
>>> understand frustrates them. That's the problem, not the 'danger' that
>>> they might pick the 'wrong choice'.
>>
>> Eh eh, the discussion is about giving a user the choice to select
>> the desktop he wants.
>
> Not really. Users clearly already have the choice. If you like KDE, pick
> the KDE Live CD which is prominently highlighted in the download page.

I think our understand of "prominently" differs. The get-fedora page
just has a link to the KDE page which is directed at KDE fans.

> This discussion is about forcing the user to pick one by emphasizing
> political correctness by not picking defaults which is the worst of all
> possible choices.

Well I don't think it's really politically correct either way but
okay. How exactly is a regular Fedora user expected to choose KDE? The
download page is for KDE fans... how do you become a KDE fan in Fedora
exactly?

> I don't see why I shouldn't ask for Xfce and ratpoison
> as among the choices offered

I'm not sure the XFCE devs would appreciate you equating their desktop
environment with a window manager.

> if we are going to take this line of argument further.

There is no reason to, it's just about the desktop

> What about offering the choice of emacs or vi and
> asking the user to pick one before proceeding with the installation?
>
>> The GNOME desktop tries to avoid user choices.
>> The KDE desktop tries to encourage user choices.
>>
>> And the decision on allowing a desktop choice divides people
>> in two camps:
>> 1) those that think the user should not choose
>> 2) those that think the user should have to choose
>
>>
>> I'd bet people in 1) are GNOME users and people in 2) are KDE users.
>>
>> I'm in 2) and I'm a KDE user, I'd guess you instead use GNOME ;-)
>
> This is a broad misgeneralization especially since these desktop
> environment learn from each other all the time and have even converged
> on a look and feel or some standards or share implementation details in
> many cases. The personal choice of a desktop environment is far more
> nuanced than can be adequately described in a installer (ie) that is the
> wrong place to describe them.


That may be true, but you not really giving the theoretical new Fedora
users much of a chance to make a nuanced personal choice of a desktop.

The only valid conclusions that can be drawn from the download, for
example, is that there is Fedora, and Fedora KDE. And since a user
most likely came looking for Fedora, they'll probably just click on
that one. You could say clicking on that one is a choice... but it's
not equivalent to choosing between Fedora Gnome and Fedora KDE.

It would make more sense for the Fedora Board to just come out and say
that they don't like anything but Gnome, and would prefer not to have
any resources go towards anything but Gnome. Because having
maintainers almost beg for a more equal access to potential users is
really kind of sad.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 17:59:14 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:59:14 -0700
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <16de708d0904301051r647b9f14qc1fe7d343bdbd778@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>
	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>
	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>
	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>
	<1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
	<49F96CE6.5090504@fedoraproject.org>
	<16de708d0904301051r647b9f14qc1fe7d343bdbd778@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1241114354.7846.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 12:51 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> It would make more sense for the Fedora Board to just come out and say
> that they don't like anything but Gnome, and would prefer not to have
> any resources go towards anything but Gnome. Because having
> maintainers almost beg for a more equal access to potential users is
> really kind of sad.

The board would likely never say that.  However there are a large number
of Fedora resources that are focused on new technology and advancements
in the user experience.  Most of this effort is focused on the Gnome
desktop.  This is due to the number of package maintainers in Fedora
that are also the upstream developers.  So we do tend to see the new
things in Gnome first, and then KDE later (see NetworkManager,
PackageManager, pulseaudio, DeviceKit, power management, so on, so
forth).  When you look at our feature list, many of the cool things we
want to show off are only available in Gnome, or with Gnome/gtk
applications.  As such, Fedora's "best foot forward" when it comes to
showing off the work we're doing and advancing technology is the gnome
based desktop.  It's not a pure gnome spin, we're using other parts such
as Firefox, so really it is the "Fedora Desktop".

(this is my opinion, I'm speaking for myself, not the board.)

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 18:06:32 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:06:32 -0700
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <200904300721.47290.wm161@wm161.net>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
	<49F96CE6.5090504@fedoraproject.org>
	<200904300721.47290.wm161@wm161.net>
Message-ID: <1241114792.32113.266.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 07:21 -0400, Trever Fischer wrote:
> The whole idea of this thread is to give a new user 
> the choice to pick between a desktop environment.

Oh, look, thread creep!

This is in fact not at all true. The thread started out with a request
for desktop choice from an *experienced* user, on the basis of fairness.
It had nothing to do with trying to 'help' new users. The question of
new users was brought up in the context of whether forcing them to make
the choice would be problematic.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 18:06:37 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:06:37 -0700
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <gtcd2h$rek$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<16de708d0904271530v135a0a4ep3ab020d798a36c5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3adc77210904271556i502559acn37c2002c124a80ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F70FB1.20603@hi.is>
	<3adc77210904280848pb8000a2h1189866bd6d17db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240953073.32113.225.camel@adam.local.net>
	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>
	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>
	<1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>
	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>
	<49F96CE6.5090504@fedoraproject.org> <gtcd2h$rek$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1241114797.32113.267.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 16:37 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:

> Why? If they don't care, they can just click "Next" on the pre-checked GNOME
> radiobutton (and I guess that if they really don't know what to pick or
> don't want to make a choice, they probably fit straight into GNOME's target
> userbase, so I don't object to making GNOME the preselected button). I
> really don't see how a "select your desktop environment" screen in the DVD
> would be a problem.

I already explained that, we're circling *again*. The problem is that
when you ask someone to make a choice without understanding the options,
it tends to frustrate them. This is a well-observed phenomenon in all
circles, certainly including computer user interface design.

(This happened to me just yesterday, filling in a Red Hat expense
report. The process includes several pages of choices, few of which I
really understood. It turned out sticking with most of the defaults was
fine, but I was nevertheless frustrated and unsure what I should do, and
when something *did* go wrong - which turned out to just be a server
error - I was worried it was because I had done the 'wrong thing'
earlier in the process.)

And again as I said before, whether we consider this a problem or not
depends on whether we care much about people who wouldn't know the
options they were being asked to choose between. And that's not a
question we currently have a clear answer to, I don't think.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From johannbg at hi.is  Thu Apr 30 18:22:51 2009
From: johannbg at hi.is (=?UTF-8?B?IkrDs2hhbm4gQi4gR3XDsG11bmRzc29uIg==?=)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:22:51 +0000
Subject: Abandon "Default Desktop"
In-Reply-To: <1241114354.7846.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <3adc77210904271504k1e72f370o41f47c7cb0ae67b1@mail.gmail.com>	<m3y6tkxy3n.fsf@mid.gehheimdienst.de>	<49F80664.6010809@robertoragusa.it>	<1241037119.3213.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<6c3f5e6c0904291514n371fa179k1901af657e05a5b5@mail.gmail.com>	<20090430002417.GA11190@orient.maison.lan>	<49F91878.2040609@redhat.com>	<1241069621.32113.260.camel@adam.local.net>	<49F966D4.5060502@robertoragusa.it>	<49F96CE6.5090504@fedoraproject.org>	<16de708d0904301051r647b9f14qc1fe7d343bdbd778@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241114354.7846.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49F9EC7B.4080909@hi.is>

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 12:51 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>   
>> It would make more sense for the Fedora Board to just come out and say
>> that they don't like anything but Gnome, and would prefer not to have
>> any resources go towards anything but Gnome. Because having
>> maintainers almost beg for a more equal access to potential users is
>> really kind of sad.
>>     
>
> The board would likely never say that.  However there are a large number
> of Fedora resources that are focused on new technology and advancements
> in the user experience.  Most of this effort is focused on the Gnome
> desktop.  This is due to the number of package maintainers in Fedora
> that are also the upstream developers.  
Perhaps more *DE upstream developers would be more willing to join and 
participate
if their *DE was competing on an equal ground against other *DE.

It's no rocket science to realize that the argument you gave is most 
likely the reason
for them staying away from the Fedoraproject.

They simply don't feel welcome @ the Fedoraproject.

Why is it so hard to abandon the "Default Desktop" concept and name it 
Fedora-Gnome.

Gnome has it's loyal fan base just like the other DE's have theirs.

Innovation is not going to stop for the Gnome project or Fedora in 
whole  if happens to be renamed.

The users that already use Gnome will continue to do so.

Earth wont stop spinning..

What are everybody afraid of ?

JBG
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 18:29:11 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:29:11 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 13:50 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote:

> OK, so here's the problem with this.  Compromise sometimes works well
> when trying to form rough consensus, or for finding the least
> disagreeable position for the most people - for politics maybe.
> However, it does not work well as a technique for designing products
> that people love to use.  When you find the middle ground between
> great and awful you don't find good - you find mediocrity and malaise.
>  Please read http://headrush.typepad.com/ for more on this topic.
> 
> We've been designing compromised products for far too long.  We need
> to acknowledge that we can't please everyone all the time and need to
> make choices.  We need to resolve to be great - it doesn't just happen
> by accident.

Sorry, but I think you're picking entirely the wrong case to try and
make your point. Try as hard as I can, I can't see how it would be
better to have the Brave New World mixer and a wiki page instructing
people on how to use alsamixer than it is to have the Brave New World
mixer and a second mixer application available in the menus. The total
cost to the design of the desktop is: one additional menu entry. I'm
really having a hard time seeing how this is a terrible design decision.

(and later in the post you repeat the "somewhat atypical system/setup"
canard. "I want to select an input channel" is not remotely atypical.)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From notting at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 18:35:35 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:35:35 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090430183535.GA24557@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) said: 
> "I want to select an input channel" is not remotely atypical.

But then, the solution (in a time-based release system) is to decide
at the appropriate point that the new code does not hit the required
feature matrix yet, and shelve the new code until the next release
where it meets the required feature matrix. (See: Empathy).

Where the issue arises here is that we've passed that appropriate point
in the schedule; since we can't push to the next release now, nor do we
have time to do anything new sanely, I'm not convinced that anything we
do/add now will be sufficiently better than doing nothing at all.

Bill



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 18:41:59 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:41:59 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090430183535.GA24557@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090430183535.GA24557@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1241116919.32113.276.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 14:35 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) said: 
> > "I want to select an input channel" is not remotely atypical.
> 
> But then, the solution (in a time-based release system) is to decide
> at the appropriate point that the new code does not hit the required
> feature matrix yet, and shelve the new code until the next release
> where it meets the required feature matrix. (See: Empathy).
> 
> Where the issue arises here is that we've passed that appropriate point
> in the schedule; since we can't push to the next release now, nor do we
> have time to do anything new sanely, I'm not convinced that anything we
> do/add now will be sufficiently better than doing nothing at all.

I think adding an alternative mixer application which doesn't interfere
with the new one in any way (and doesn't break anything significant even
if it somehow fails to work entirely) is a pretty safe and conservative
choice, and that's why FESco agreed to do so. It also confers a
significant benefit, i.e. a way to adjust what needs to be adjusted
without having to use an obscure console application which few people
know how to use or are even aware exists. I mean, look, come on, just
look at it from a pragmatic viewpoint: it's a single package containing
code we've already shipped for multiple releases, which we *know* works.
Heck, it's code Ubuntu 9.04 is shipping as its default mixer
application. What, as slashdot would put it, couldpossiblygowrong?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From greno at verizon.net  Thu Apr 30 18:55:56 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:55:56 -0400
Subject: F10: something broken with lvm
In-Reply-To: <49EFA7A9.3000201@verizon.net>
References: <49EBB65C.9010301@verizon.net> <49EF7446.9080107@verizon.net>
	<645d17210904221408i666eb239g4b84edec7c9cca6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EF9478.1040807@verizon.net> <49EFA7A9.3000201@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <49F9F43C.3000001@verizon.net>

Gerry Reno wrote:
> Gerry Reno wrote:
>> Jonathan Underwood wrote:
>>> 2009/4/22 Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net>:
>>>  
>>>> Gerry Reno wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>> We just upgraded a number of machines to F10 and after a few weeks 
>>>>> I've
>>>>> noticed something wrong with lvm.  Some of our inhouse scripts are 
>>>>> breaking
>>>>> that deal with lvm.  When I look at /etc/fstab and mount I see 
>>>>> entries what
>>>>> used to look like:
>>>>> /dev/VolGroup00/LogVol01 /                      ext3    
>>>>> defaults        1
>>>>> 1
>>>>> getting changed to this:
>>>>> /dev/dm-3   /                     ext3   defaults      1 1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Where does this '/dev/dm-3' device come from?  I don't find it 
>>>>> referenced
>>>>> in any of the lvm tool outputs.  Whatever caused this change to 
>>>>> happen
>>>>> please revert this back to just listing lv's in normal lvm 
>>>>> parlance please.
>>>>>  These mysterious changes are breaking things and are a complete 
>>>>> nuisance.
>>>>>  How do we go about undoing these changes and how do we prevent 
>>>>> this from
>>>>> happening again?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Gerry
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>> No one responded to this inquiry and these mysterious changes 
>>>> continue to
>>>> happen.  How can we prevent this from happening?
>>>>     
>>>
>>> Not sure what would cause that. Perhaps related to this bug:
>>>
>>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=475773
>>>
>>> Can you look back through /var/log/yum.log to work out which set of
>>> package updates may have triggered the problem - that might provide a
>>> clue.
>>>
>>>   
>> Yes, that bug shows something similar but affecting mkinitrd.  These 
>> machines were upgraded from F9 and then began having these mysterious 
>> changes occur with these /dev/dm-N entries.  These devices bear no 
>> resemblence to any mdraid devices or LVM devices and our scripts 
>> completely croak with these devices.  Why are perfectly good devices 
>> being renamed to absolutely useless names?  All I want to know is how 
>> to stop whatever it is that is causing this.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gerry
>>
> Filed bug:  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497246
>
> Regards,
> Gerry
>

This is till causing major headaches.
Once a system has had its device names changed to /dev/dm-N style then 
how are we supposed to know when there is a conflict with device 
mounting.  /proc/mounts will show our LVM mounting by it's normal LVM 
names such as /dev/mapper/VolGroup01-LogVol00 but 'blkid' will have no 
listing for this device under that name any longer.  It will have 
/dev/dm-N entries.  But how are we to correlate these devices?  If our 
scripts attempt to mount /dev/dm-1 because it has no mount showing under 
/proc/mounts the script gets an error because the same device is mounted 
as /dev/mapper/VolGroup01-LogVol00.  How are we to tell that these 
devices have the same UUID when 'blkid' only lists one of them?

Regards,
Gerry



From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 19:08:12 2009
From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:08:12 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com> <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com> <gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 13:50 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote:
>
>> OK, so here's the problem with this. ?Compromise sometimes works well
>> when trying to form rough consensus, or for finding the least
>> disagreeable position for the most people - for politics maybe.
>> However, it does not work well as a technique for designing products
>> that people love to use. ?When you find the middle ground between
>> great and awful you don't find good - you find mediocrity and malaise.
>> ?Please read http://headrush.typepad.com/ for more on this topic.
>>
>> We've been designing compromised products for far too long. ?We need
>> to acknowledge that we can't please everyone all the time and need to
>> make choices. ?We need to resolve to be great - it doesn't just happen
>> by accident.
>
> Sorry, but I think you're picking entirely the wrong case to try and
> make your point. Try as hard as I can, I can't see how it would be
> better to have the Brave New World mixer and a wiki page instructing
> people on how to use alsamixer than it is to have the Brave New World
> mixer and a second mixer application available in the menus. The total
> cost to the design of the desktop is: one additional menu entry. I'm
> really having a hard time seeing how this is a terrible design decision.

Look, calling our design the "Brave New World mixer" doesn't
particularly make you come across as someone we should be listening
to.  And frankly, if you can't see why it is dumb to have two entries
in the menu for controlling your sound and volume then well maybe we
shouldn't be listening to you.  Also, seems like a bad decision to
want to QA two entirely separate code paths for doing essentially the
same thing.

Jon



From cra at WPI.EDU  Thu Apr 30 19:12:58 2009
From: cra at WPI.EDU (Chuck Anderson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:12:58 -0400
Subject: F10: something broken with lvm
In-Reply-To: <49F9F43C.3000001@verizon.net>
References: <49EBB65C.9010301@verizon.net> <49EF7446.9080107@verizon.net>
	<645d17210904221408i666eb239g4b84edec7c9cca6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EF9478.1040807@verizon.net> <49EFA7A9.3000201@verizon.net>
	<49F9F43C.3000001@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20090430191258.GP25564@angus.ind.WPI.EDU>

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 02:55:56PM -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
> This is till causing major headaches.
> Once a system has had its device names changed to /dev/dm-N style then  
> how are we supposed to know when there is a conflict with device  
> mounting.  /proc/mounts will show our LVM mounting by it's normal LVM  
> names such as /dev/mapper/VolGroup01-LogVol00 but 'blkid' will have no  
> listing for this device under that name any longer.  It will have  
> /dev/dm-N entries.  But how are we to correlate these devices?  If our  
> scripts attempt to mount /dev/dm-1 because it has no mount showing under  
> /proc/mounts the script gets an error because the same device is mounted  
> as /dev/mapper/VolGroup01-LogVol00.  How are we to tell that these  
> devices have the same UUID when 'blkid' only lists one of them?

Compare the device major/minor numbers.



From greno at verizon.net  Thu Apr 30 19:31:35 2009
From: greno at verizon.net (Gerry Reno)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:31:35 -0400
Subject: F10: something broken with lvm
In-Reply-To: <20090430191258.GP25564@angus.ind.WPI.EDU>
References: <49EBB65C.9010301@verizon.net> <49EF7446.9080107@verizon.net>
	<645d17210904221408i666eb239g4b84edec7c9cca6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49EF9478.1040807@verizon.net> <49EFA7A9.3000201@verizon.net>
	<49F9F43C.3000001@verizon.net>
	<20090430191258.GP25564@angus.ind.WPI.EDU>
Message-ID: <49F9FC97.3080101@verizon.net>

Chuck Anderson wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 02:55:56PM -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
>   
>> This is till causing major headaches.
>> Once a system has had its device names changed to /dev/dm-N style then  
>> how are we supposed to know when there is a conflict with device  
>> mounting.  /proc/mounts will show our LVM mounting by it's normal LVM  
>> names such as /dev/mapper/VolGroup01-LogVol00 but 'blkid' will have no  
>> listing for this device under that name any longer.  It will have  
>> /dev/dm-N entries.  But how are we to correlate these devices?  If our  
>> scripts attempt to mount /dev/dm-1 because it has no mount showing under  
>> /proc/mounts the script gets an error because the same device is mounted  
>> as /dev/mapper/VolGroup01-LogVol00.  How are we to tell that these  
>> devices have the same UUID when 'blkid' only lists one of them?
>>     
>
> Compare the device major/minor numbers.
>
>   
Yeah, we can do that. That's really low level. I'll just be glad when 
these /dev/dm-N devices are removed from user space. They have broken a 
lot of stuff.

Regards,
Gerry



From tcallawa at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 19:33:28 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:33:28 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>

On 04/30/2009 03:08 PM, William Jon McCann wrote:
> Look, calling our design the "Brave New World mixer" doesn't
> particularly make you come across as someone we should be listening
> to.  And frankly, if you can't see why it is dumb to have two entries
> in the menu for controlling your sound and volume then well maybe we
> shouldn't be listening to you.

Remember kids, we probably shouldn't be listening to you. Red Hat
Desktop == Smart. You == Dumb.

~spot



From skvidal at fedoraproject.org  Thu Apr 30 19:38:47 2009
From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:38:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0904301538270.6644@localhost.localdomain>



On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Tom \"spot\" Callaway wrote:

> On 04/30/2009 03:08 PM, William Jon McCann wrote:
>> Look, calling our design the "Brave New World mixer" doesn't
>> particularly make you come across as someone we should be listening
>> to.  And frankly, if you can't see why it is dumb to have two entries
>> in the menu for controlling your sound and volume then well maybe we
>> shouldn't be listening to you.
>
> Remember kids, we probably shouldn't be listening to you. Red Hat
> Desktop == Smart. You == Dumb.

I mean - look at how much money red hat has made off of the desktop.....


hey... wait a second!

-sv



From notting at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 19:48:22 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:48:22 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Tom spot Callaway (tcallawa at redhat.com) said: 
> On 04/30/2009 03:08 PM, William Jon McCann wrote:
> > Look, calling our design the "Brave New World mixer" doesn't
> > particularly make you come across as someone we should be listening
> > to.  And frankly, if you can't see why it is dumb to have two entries
> > in the menu for controlling your sound and volume then well maybe we
> > shouldn't be listening to you.
> 
> Remember kids, we probably shouldn't be listening to you. Red Hat
> Desktop == Smart. You == Dumb.

Wheee, double-sided pointless antagonism! Ah, the joys of fedora-devel
in its most common, mostly-useless form.

In any case, it *is* a fairly obvious point in user interface design
that giving users two identical choices that pop-up/run entirely different
things is a horrible UI. It confuses the new user, makes writing coherent
docs a mess, etc. I didn't really know that this was a debatable point.

Of course, I don't know that the proposed solution does this, since,
a week after it was proposed, a week after we've cut our last milestone
release, and less than two weeks before we cut the hopefully-to-be-shipped
release candidate, this proposed solution *has yet to land in any form
at all*. Given the stage of the schedule now, I find it pretty preposterous
that we're still considering changing things.

Bill



From johannbg at hi.is  Thu Apr 30 20:01:33 2009
From: johannbg at hi.is (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:01:33 +0000
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
	<20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49FA039D.10102@hi.is>

On 04/30/2009 07:48 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:

<snip>
....
</snip>

> Of course, I don't know that the proposed solution does this, since,
> a week after it was proposed, a week after we've cut our last milestone
> release, and less than two weeks before we cut the hopefully-to-be-shipped
> release candidate, this proposed solution *has yet to land in any form
> at all*. Given the stage of the schedule now, I find it pretty preposterous
> that we're still considering changing things

Agreed.

With Empathy we noticed things early in the release cycle
and thus could revert those changes in time and thus reefer those wanting
to use Empathy to install it manually.

With PAVC things got notice to late in the release cycle and thus those
that need
any functionality that PAVC does not provide should be refereed to
install the old application
manually and ask/or participate early in the release cycle to prevent
these kind
of situation from happening again.

I also think it should be considered a good working rule not to replace
application with a another application until that application provides
equal or better
functionality than the previous one. 

Just my 2cents.

JBG



From jwboyer at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 20:13:10 2009
From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:13:10 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49FA039D.10102@hi.is>
References: <gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
	<20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<49FA039D.10102@hi.is>
Message-ID: <20090430201310.GC2424@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org>

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 08:01:33PM +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote:
>On 04/30/2009 07:48 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>I also think it should be considered a good working rule not to replace
>application with a another application until that application provides
>equal or better
>functionality than the previous one. 

That is the crux of the whole argument though.  Side A says PVAC doesn't
provide equal or better functionality, Side B says that "functionality"
is weird-case and out of scope.

So it depends on who is doing the determination of 'equal or better'.
Which, apparently, can produce different results.

josh



From belegdol at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 20:21:45 2009
From: belegdol at gmail.com (Julian Sikorski)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:21:45 +0200
Subject: X becomes non-responsive after a while when running f11 preview
 inside a VM (F10 host)
In-Reply-To: <faa16b610904301018x3278a633t2ab2e50cfd1e5ad8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <gtbh4i$5r1$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1241099411.15907.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<gtciq7$fgm$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<gtckt1$mlu$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<faa16b610904301018x3278a633t2ab2e50cfd1e5ad8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gtd18q$v02$1@ger.gmane.org>

Colin Walters pisze:
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Julian Sikorski <belegdol at gmail.com> wrote:
>> You were right, it's metacity. Killing it brings the machine back to
>> life. Also, it seems that the bug is often triggered by closing a gnome
>> terminal tab with ctrl-d.
> 
> Hi, when reporting a bug on this issue please see:
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/StackTraces
> 
> If the machine is stuck in this way the most convenient thing is often
> to do a remote login over ssh from a different computer to get the
> data.
> 
Not necessary, I can switch to vt2 and get the backtrace. Is it possible
to ssh from the host to the guest VM btw?

Julian



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 20:34:33 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:34:33 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
	<20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1241123673.32113.299.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 15:48 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:

> Wheee, double-sided pointless antagonism! Ah, the joys of fedora-devel
> in its most common, mostly-useless form.
> 
> In any case, it *is* a fairly obvious point in user interface design
> that giving users two identical choices that pop-up/run entirely different
> things is a horrible UI. It confuses the new user, makes writing coherent
> docs a mess, etc. I didn't really know that this was a debatable point.

I never said it was good. I said it was less bad than EXPECTING PEOPLE
TO TELEPATHICALLY DISCOVER THE EXISTENCE OF alsamixer.

What is the goal of good UI design? Happy users. Is a user who can't
hear any sound and doesn't know how the hell to fix it happy? No. Is
'good UI design that results in a non-functional system and a pissed-off
user' better than 'bad UI design that results in a functioning system
and a happier user'? No. You can't see the wood for the trees.

> Of course, I don't know that the proposed solution does this, since,
> a week after it was proposed, a week after we've cut our last milestone
> release, and less than two weeks before we cut the hopefully-to-be-shipped
> release candidate, this proposed solution *has yet to land in any form
> at all*. Given the stage of the schedule now, I find it pretty preposterous
> that we're still considering changing things.

I had gnome-alsamixer packaged and ready to go on Monday; it would have
been faster if things hadn't happened over a weekend where I was at a
conference. That's https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497593 .

However, I then switched tracks to work on the old gnome-volume-control
instead. I did this because I'm trying to make as many people happy as
possible as opposed to just spending my time dug into my trench firing
at the opposition. Bastien said he'd prefer the old g-v-c, made some
good points, no-one contradicted them, so I took that on board and
worked on the old g-v-c code instead. This is substantially more complex
than packaging gnome-alsamixer, and I posted some progress messages to
which no-one replied or made any helpful suggestions or contributed any
fixes, but I persevered and had it ready the next day. That's
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=498136 . It's sitting there
waiting to be approved now.

If other people had spent time contributing to this process while I was
busy as fuck hacking on two different packages, tracking down patches,
and simultaneously working with Lennart and a dozen end users to
generate and track useful bug reports on the volume issues, maybe it
would have gone faster. I am terribly terribly sorry that I wasn't quite
able to meet your schedule while I was working thirteen hours a day on
this issue.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 20:36:26 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:36:26 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1241123786.32113.301.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 15:08 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote:

> > Sorry, but I think you're picking entirely the wrong case to try and
> > make your point. Try as hard as I can, I can't see how it would be
> > better to have the Brave New World mixer and a wiki page instructing
> > people on how to use alsamixer than it is to have the Brave New World
> > mixer and a second mixer application available in the menus. The total
> > cost to the design of the desktop is: one additional menu entry. I'm
> > really having a hard time seeing how this is a terrible design decision.
> 
> Look, calling our design the "Brave New World mixer" doesn't
> particularly make you come across as someone we should be listening
> to.

Sorry, that's not how I meant it. I like
referring to things with silly names (cf. Great Mixer Debate). It
doesn't *mean* anything. If you want to know what I think, read what I
say, and I've already said I like the new mixer design. I like
PulseAudio, I like what Lennart's doing to revise audio support, I've
been running the damn thing since it was called PolypAudio and I've been
doing user support trying to improve it for years. At this very moment I
am busy working on the tracker bug I filed with Lennart's help to try
and track down as many volume bugs as possible, which is one of the
things that needs to happen for the new mixer to be sufficient on its
own.

The typical problem of PulseAudio detractors is that they refuse to see
any value in PulseAudio and advocate disabling it at the first possible
opportunity, to everyone, for completely unrelated issues.

On the *other* side, the typical problem of some in PulseAudio / GNOME
is that they see enemies everywhere. I'm not an enemy. I'm not one of
the people who's just here to bash Pulse at every possible opportunity.
I'm trying to *help*, by removing what will otherwise become yet another
"PulseAudio sucks!" issue in Fedora 11. Do you really want that? Do you
*want* to release a Fedora 11 which gives more ammunition to the people
who just say that anything we try to do to improve the audio
infrastructure is broken? Can't we please just spike their guns so we
can get something fricking productive done?

>   And frankly, if you can't see why it is dumb to have two entries
> in the menu for controlling your sound and volume then well maybe we
> shouldn't be listening to you.  

Please instead of making personal attacks on me, explain. I *know* it's
not perfect UI, but perfect UI is not an almighty goal in and of itself,
it is a part of a product, and the goal of the product is to make people
happy by letting them do what they need to do. A 'good' UI which does
not let the user do what they need to do with it is no use. A 'bad' UI
which does is better. It's not perfect, but it's better.

> Also, seems like a bad decision to
> want to QA two entirely separate code paths for doing essentially the
> same thing.

I never said it was perfect, I said it was an improvement on the current
situation. That does not require it not to have drawbacks.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From belegdol at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 20:42:41 2009
From: belegdol at gmail.com (Julian Sikorski)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:42:41 +0200
Subject: X becomes non-responsive after a while when running f11 preview
 inside a VM (F10 host)
In-Reply-To: <gtd18q$v02$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gtbh4i$5r1$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1241099411.15907.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>	<gtciq7$fgm$1@ger.gmane.org>	<gtckt1$mlu$1@ger.gmane.org>	<faa16b610904301018x3278a633t2ab2e50cfd1e5ad8@mail.gmail.com>
	<gtd18q$v02$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <gtd2g1$307$1@ger.gmane.org>

Julian Sikorski pisze:
> Colin Walters pisze:
>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Julian Sikorski <belegdol at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> You were right, it's metacity. Killing it brings the machine back to
>>> life. Also, it seems that the bug is often triggered by closing a gnome
>>> terminal tab with ctrl-d.
>> Hi, when reporting a bug on this issue please see:
>>
>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/StackTraces
>>
>> If the machine is stuck in this way the most convenient thing is often
>> to do a remote login over ssh from a different computer to get the
>> data.
>>
> Not necessary, I can switch to vt2 and get the backtrace. Is it possible
> to ssh from the host to the guest VM btw?
> 
> Julian
> 
Got it:
http://belegdol.fedorapeople.org/backtrace.txt
Isn't that yet another flavour of
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492838 ?

Julian



From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 20:41:04 2009
From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:41:04 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com> <gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <939dd5750904301341o5fdd07b0s8d6f745c8d185a70@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Spot,

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway
<tcallawa at redhat.com> wrote:
> On 04/30/2009 03:08 PM, William Jon McCann wrote:
>> Look, calling our design the "Brave New World mixer" doesn't
>> particularly make you come across as someone we should be listening
>> to. ?And frankly, if you can't see why it is dumb to have two entries
>> in the menu for controlling your sound and volume then well maybe we
>> shouldn't be listening to you.
>
> Remember kids, we probably shouldn't be listening to you. Red Hat
> Desktop == Smart. You == Dumb.

Should have been obvious that I wasn't saying that.  You should know better.

There is nothing about the current discussion that has anything to do
with good ideas only coming from Red Hat or the Desktop team.  One of
the codesigners of this interface works for Canonical.  The people who
we listen to are individuals who have proven themselves to be capable
(often through community contributions) or those who can express or
demonstrate new and interesting ideas.  One of the problems with this
list in particular is that many of these people have been driven away.

I know this very well as someone who lurked on this list for many
years before being hired by Red Hat.  The list was overwhelmed by
noise with a continuously decreasing amount of signal.  Trust me,
there are people out there in the community who want to be part of the
process but want nothing to do with the bikeshedding and base level of
debate that often occurs here.  Being able to clearly identify good
ideas and reject bad ones is important for community health.
Honestly, painting the debate as somehow us versus them is detrimental
to community health.

Thanks,
Jon



From ajax at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 20:55:36 2009
From: ajax at redhat.com (Adam Jackson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:55:36 -0400
Subject: X becomes non-responsive after a while when running f11
 preview inside a VM (F10 host)
In-Reply-To: <gtd2g1$307$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gtbh4i$5r1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1241099411.15907.2.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>
	<gtciq7$fgm$1@ger.gmane.org>	<gtckt1$mlu$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<faa16b610904301018x3278a633t2ab2e50cfd1e5ad8@mail.gmail.com>
	<gtd18q$v02$1@ger.gmane.org>  <gtd2g1$307$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1241124936.2766.58.camel@atropine.boston.devel.redhat.com>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 22:42 +0200, Julian Sikorski wrote:
> Julian Sikorski pisze:
> > Colin Walters pisze:
> >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Julian Sikorski <belegdol at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> You were right, it's metacity. Killing it brings the machine back to
> >>> life. Also, it seems that the bug is often triggered by closing a gnome
> >>> terminal tab with ctrl-d.
> >> Hi, when reporting a bug on this issue please see:
> >>
> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/StackTraces
> >>
> >> If the machine is stuck in this way the most convenient thing is often
> >> to do a remote login over ssh from a different computer to get the
> >> data.
> >>
> > Not necessary, I can switch to vt2 and get the backtrace. Is it possible
> > to ssh from the host to the guest VM btw?
> > 
> > Julian
> > 
> Got it:
> http://belegdol.fedorapeople.org/backtrace.txt
> Isn't that yet another flavour of
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492838 ?

Seems likely, yeah.

- ajax
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 20:59:36 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:59:36 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49FA039D.10102@hi.is>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
	<20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<49FA039D.10102@hi.is>
Message-ID: <1241125176.32113.323.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 20:01 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote:

> > Of course, I don't know that the proposed solution does this, since,
> > a week after it was proposed, a week after we've cut our last milestone
> > release, and less than two weeks before we cut the hopefully-to-be-shipped
> > release candidate, this proposed solution *has yet to land in any form
> > at all*. Given the stage of the schedule now, I find it pretty preposterous
> > that we're still considering changing things
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> With Empathy we noticed things early in the release cycle
> and thus could revert those changes in time and thus reefer those wanting
> to use Empathy to install it manually.

This kind of argument just doesn't reflect reality. If it were actually
true, it would be valid. If it were true that we change almost nothing
after a preview release, the point would be significant.

But it's just not true. Did you see the rawhide compose message for
today? It contains three new packages and changes to 50, including basic
components of GNOME and KDE. Tuesday's rawhide featured nine changes to
the *kernel*.

You can't move the goalposts about. If the rule is changing things after
preview is a really significant deal, then there shouldn't be that level
of changes actually happening.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From notting at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 21:00:19 2009
From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:00:19 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1241123673.32113.299.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
	<20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1241123673.32113.299.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <20090430210019.GC25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>

Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) said: 
> I never said it was good. I said it was less bad than EXPECTING PEOPLE
> TO TELEPATHICALLY DISCOVER THE EXISTENCE OF alsamixer.

Well, I'm assuming it would be documented in the same way you'd document
'install this package and twiddle this switch'; once you're to that
point of writing up a 'fix this' cookbook, the specifics are less relevant.

> If other people had spent time contributing to this process while I was
> busy as fuck hacking on two different packages, tracking down patches,
> and simultaneously working with Lennart and a dozen end users to
> generate and track useful bug reports on the volume issues, maybe it
> would have gone faster. I am terribly terribly sorry that I wasn't quite
> able to meet your schedule while I was working thirteen hours a day on
> this issue.

The point isn't the amount of work going in, or anything like that; it's 
more the fact that the *process* to start the change was started this
late. That indicates a real issue with the process; we've got feature
pages that define what we're trying to implement, and contingency plans
to enact if they don't work. Why did we miss the deadline to enact this
here? Was the feature page not complete enough as to what was required?
Was the time too short between alpha/beta/preview? Were the reports just
late?

It'd be the same response if we were changing the artwork now, or
attempting to do the empathy/pidgin flop at this stage, etc. It's
just rather late to be making any changes of this sort, regardless
of the work being done.

Bill



From kevin at scrye.com  Thu Apr 30 21:12:45 2009
From: kevin at scrye.com (Kevin Fenzi)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:12:45 -0600
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090430183535.GA24557@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com> <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com> <gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090430183535.GA24557@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090430151245.3b92a456@ohm.scrye.com>

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:35:35 -0400
Bill Nottingham <notting at redhat.com> wrote:

> Adam Williamson (awilliam at redhat.com) said: 
> > "I want to select an input channel" is not remotely atypical.
> 
> But then, the solution (in a time-based release system) is to decide
> at the appropriate point that the new code does not hit the required
> feature matrix yet, and shelve the new code until the next release
> where it meets the required feature matrix. (See: Empathy).

Agreed. Unfortunately, sometimes it's hard to assess that, particularly
for desktop features that don't get more widespread testing until very
late in the cycle.  (See: we need more people using rawhide day to day
as their main machines). 

> Where the issue arises here is that we've passed that appropriate
> point in the schedule; since we can't push to the next release now,
> nor do we have time to do anything new sanely, I'm not convinced that
> anything we do/add now will be sufficiently better than doing nothing
> at all.

I think offering a gui mixer applet menu item for those folks that (for
various reasons) sound doesn't work out of the box for is still worth
while. (Although I agree time is running out...)

I agree that the Gnome folks should be able to setup their desktop
however they feel is best. It's their product. However, I also think
that because it's the desktop that people will see by default and is
very heavily associated with what people think of when they think
"fedora", the Fedora project should have input sometimes in how it's
integrated. 

I have 2 selfish reasons for wanting a gui mixer to be shipped with
F11: 

1. I like Fedora. I want it to be well spoken of and enjoyed by anyone
who tries it out. I think that doing this will reduce the amount of
people who are unhappy/mad/displeased with the Fedora I love. 
I think that for those people who the volume works for won't even
notice it's there. 

2. I help out on various fedora support channels. #fedora on irc,
fedora-list and I have even been poking around on fedoraforum. 
I think without this the support burden would be increased on all of
these channels. The way I see it: 
a Most people - everything works, sounds good. 
b Some people - sound does not work for, they give up and go to another
  distro or post angry messages and go somewhere else. 
c Some people - sound does not work, they look around the menus and
  find a mixer. Tweak it and get it working. 
d Some people - Go to support channels in various states of upset and
  get told to use 'alsamixer -c0' in a terminal, or xfce4-mixer or
  something else and get it to work. 

I think adding c there decreases the number of people who get to d. 
Hopefully in the next cycle those cases can be identified and we will
no longer need c in there. I don't see how adding step c really affects
anything but some users for whom sound isn't ideal. 

> 
> Bill
> 

kevin
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From johannbg at hi.is  Thu Apr 30 22:12:59 2009
From: johannbg at hi.is (=?UTF-8?B?IkrDs2hhbm4gQi4gR3XDsG11bmRzc29uIg==?=)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:12:59 +0000
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1241125176.32113.323.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>
	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>	<20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>	<49FA039D.10102@hi.is>
	<1241125176.32113.323.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <49FA226B.4020006@hi.is>

On 04/30/2009 08:59 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

<snip>
....
</snip>
> On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 20:01 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote:
>
>
> You can't move the goalposts about. If the rule is changing things after
> preview is a really significant deal, then there shouldn't be that level
> of changes actually happening.
>   

Hum...

Afaik I know the final freeze was "Tue 2009-04-14"

This meeting was held 10 day's later..

And as is mentioned in final freeze policy

" The purpose of the final freeze is to prevent changes while the
release is prepared"

I would categories this as an significant change.

"As of the final freeze for a release, no new builds are allowed for
packages already in the Fedora collection
(new packages can still be reviewed, added in CVS and built as potential
updates)"

And I would think that the other application would have to follow the
above procedure and be built as potential update.

I must be misunderstanding something which is not the first time nor the
last :(

JBG

http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/FinalFreezePolicy



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 22:55:16 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:55:16 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49FA226B.4020006@hi.is>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
	<20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>	<49FA039D.10102@hi.is>
	<1241125176.32113.323.camel@adam.local.net>  <49FA226B.4020006@hi.is>
Message-ID: <1241132116.32113.387.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 22:12 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote:
> On 04/30/2009 08:59 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> ....
> </snip>
> > On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 20:01 +0000, "J?hann B. Gu?mundsson" wrote:
> >
> >
> > You can't move the goalposts about. If the rule is changing things after
> > preview is a really significant deal, then there shouldn't be that level
> > of changes actually happening.
> >   
> 
> Hum...
> 
> Afaik I know the final freeze was "Tue 2009-04-14"
> 
> This meeting was held 10 day's later..
> 
> And as is mentioned in final freeze policy
> 
> " The purpose of the final freeze is to prevent changes while the
> release is prepared"
> 
> I would categories this as an significant change.
> 
> "As of the final freeze for a release, no new builds are allowed for
> packages already in the Fedora collection
> (new packages can still be reviewed, added in CVS and built as potential
> updates)"
> 
> And I would think that the other application would have to follow the
> above procedure and be built as potential update.
> 
> I must be misunderstanding something which is not the first time nor the
> last :(

Well, as I said, just look at what actually happens. The policy is
clearly not honored. Look back at the rawhide compose reports since
2009-04-14, and see the changes yourself.

It's a bit hard to cite this policy as an objection to just *one*
change, while hundreds of other fly by unchallenged.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 23:09:28 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:09:28 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1241132116.32113.387.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
	<20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>	<49FA039D.10102@hi.is>
	<1241125176.32113.323.camel@adam.local.net>  <49FA226B.4020006@hi.is>
	<1241132116.32113.387.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1241132968.7846.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 15:55 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> It's a bit hard to cite this policy as an objection to just *one*
> change, while hundreds of other fly by unchallenged.

The other changes are exceptions to the freeze rule, which have to go
through an approval process and get approved by at least 2 releng
members.

The real point of the freeze is to prevent unwanted change from getting
in, accidental or otherwise.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 23:16:47 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:16:47 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
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	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
	<20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1241133407.32113.388.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 15:48 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:

> Of course, I don't know that the proposed solution does this, since,
> a week after it was proposed, a week after we've cut our last milestone
> release, and less than two weeks before we cut the hopefully-to-be-shipped
> release candidate, this proposed solution *has yet to land in any form
> at all*. Given the stage of the schedule now, I find it pretty preposterous
> that we're still considering changing things.

So, to try and carry on being productive, here's the current status and
what needs to happen here. If people could *please* contribute to this
process that would be greatly appreciated.

There are two open review requests, one for gnome-alsamixer, one for
gst-mixer.

gnome-alsamixer: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497593
gst-mixer: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=498136

we need to pick one and move ahead with it. The review needs to be done
and the package accepted into rawhide, then the change to add it to the
default spin can be done.

I did a quick review of both tools with Bill. Here's our conclusions.

gst-mixer - the old gnome-volume-control - has a rather better UI, but a
somewhat odd work flow. To select an input device you have to hit
Preferences and enable a bunch of controls "Line-in Capture", "CD
Capture", "Microphone Capture" etc. (It may that these are displayed by
default on some cards but this didn't work for me and Bill, I don't
really know). Then you can go to the Switches tab and select your input,
except for me the input selection switches act as checkboxes not radio
buttons (they should act as radio buttons and only let one be selected
at a time), so I can have Video Capture, Microphone Capture, CD Capture
and Line-in Capture selected all at once, but the one I clicked on last
is the one that's actually active.

So it's an odd interface and seems buggy for me and Bill, but it does
what you need in the end. I don't know if either of these things are
expected behaviour, Bastien might.

gnome-alsamixer - it's a butt-ugly UI. But then, it's just the same as
alsamixer and most other traditional mixers, it just shows you all the
channels and a bunch of checkboxes. It does some silly stuff like the
gradients on the sliders are the wrong way round, but that's not really
important. Fundamentally it works how most mixers classically do, and it
works properly for me: all my inputs have a "Rec." checkbox, and
checking the appropriate one selects that as the input channel, and they
act as radio buttons (even though they're displayed as checkboxes).

So, them's the choices. I don't really care which is picked, I'll
maintain either if wanted or hand off to someone else. Just according to
the FESco decision one needs to be picked and added ASAP.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From awilliam at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 23:16:51 2009
From: awilliam at redhat.com (Adam Williamson)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:16:51 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <939dd5750904301341o5fdd07b0s8d6f745c8d185a70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com> <gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
	<939dd5750904301341o5fdd07b0s8d6f745c8d185a70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1241133411.32113.389.camel@adam.local.net>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 16:41 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote:
> There is nothing about the current discussion that has anything to do
> with good ideas only coming from Red Hat or the Desktop team.  One of
> the codesigners of this interface works for Canonical.

As I noted a few days ago - Ubuntu 9.04 shipped with the old mixer.
gnome-volume-control-pulse is available as an alternative that installs
alongside the old mixer...
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net



From john.brown009 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 23:27:26 2009
From: john.brown009 at gmail.com (TK009)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:27:26 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090424161356.299d0d53@ohm.scrye.com>
	<49F24B17.30602@redhat.com>	<49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49FA33DE.7050707@gmail.com>

William Jon McCann wrote:
>
> In this particular case, there is nothing wrong with telling some
> people either: 
a) you may have to wait *years* in order to get the optimal experience.
b) The current release of this product is a fail! Go to this wiki page 
and follow the instructions to make it work.
> We simply cannot avoid this if we continue to use a
> time-based release process.  There will always be cases where we don't
> finish everything we'd like to.
But it ok to ship a crappy or not ready product as long as I created it.
> That is, it cannot
> if we ever want to recover marketshare and mindshare from other
> distributions (not to mention other/better OS's),
"we" are not competing  with other distributions. That is just you 
lennart and crew.

Here is a clue, making a better product will "recover" your precious 
market and mind share. Telling people only you know what is best does not.



From konrad at tylerc.org  Thu Apr 30 23:46:47 2009
From: konrad at tylerc.org (Conrad Meyer)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:46:47 -0700
Subject: Orphaning azureus
Message-ID: <200904301646.47342.konrad@tylerc.org>

I'm orphaning azureus in all non-EOL release branches (F-9, F-10, F-11) as 
well as devel.

It's a steaming pile of crap, I don't use it personally, and I don't have the 
time to do a proper job hammering it in to shape for Fedora. As a warning to 
any would-be takers, version 4.2 has been released for a while now (the 
version in CVS is 4.0.0.4). The package could use a lot of work and now is a 
great time to do another review request (if someone wants to maintain it) for 
the name change (Azureus -> Vuze).

Regards,
-- 
Conrad Meyer <konrad at tylerc.org>



From john.brown009 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 23:46:54 2009
From: john.brown009 at gmail.com (TK009)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:46:54 -0400
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <20090430210019.GC25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
References: <gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>	<20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>	<1241123673.32113.299.camel@adam.local.net>
	<20090430210019.GC25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49FA386E.4000300@gmail.com>

Bill Nottingham wrote:
>
>  That indicates a real issue with the process; we've got feature
> pages that define what we're trying to implement, and contingency plans
> to enact if they don't work. Why did we miss the deadline to enact this
> here?
I think everyone is asking the same thing at this point.
>  
>
> It'd be the same response if we were changing the artwork now, or
> attempting to do the empathy/pidgin flop at this stage, etc. It's
> just rather late to be making any changes of this sort, regardless
> of the work being done.
>
> Bill
>
>   
What matters most the quality of the product or the deadline? It sounds 
like the deadline supersedes all else. Better late than never, as the 
saying goes.



From mjg at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 23:48:09 2009
From: mjg at redhat.com (Matthew Garrett)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 00:48:09 +0100
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090430234809.GA5813@srcf.ucam.org>

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 03:33:28PM -0400, Tom spot Callaway wrote:

> Remember kids, we probably shouldn't be listening to you. Red Hat
> Desktop == Smart. You == Dumb.

The problem with the desktop is that it's obvious, looks simple and 
everyone has an opinion on it. But not all of these opinions are equally 
valid. This kind of situation is much easier to deal with in, say, the 
kernel VM system - in that case it would be perfectly acceptable for 
people who spend their entire working lives concentrating on a specific 
topic to say that they know better than people who occasionally touch 
upon it.

The real question is whether we believe that the people who spend their 
lives working on the Fedora desktop have a better understanding of the 
issues than people who don't. I've disagreed with various decisions 
they've made, and in some cases argued quite strongly. I've then often 
discovered that they've done significantly more research than I have, 
have carefully considered the issues that I thought were blindingly 
obvious and have come to a conclusion based on the work that they've 
done. In the majority of cases I've ended up agreeing with their 
position. These aren't dictators who change software behaviour on a 
whim. They're professionals who are doing their very best to make the 
Fedora desktop a modern and usable system. And so it's entirely 
unsurprising if they become upset at being told by a group of people who 
*don't* work in that field that they're wrong, in the same way that I'd 
end up pretty furious if FESCO overruled me on a power management issue 
ten days after we passed final freeze.

It's not about smart versus dumb. If we trust these people then we have 
to assume that in most cases they *will* know better than people who 
argue against them on mailing lists. And if we don't trust them then 
there's something pretty fundamentally wrong with the way we're 
producing this distribution.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org



From jonstanley at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 23:52:25 2009
From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:52:25 -0400
Subject: Plan for tomorrow's (20090501) FESCo meeting
Message-ID: <da159fda0904301652q7bf97bcbh91fd3a76c765b7e8@mail.gmail.com>

Here's the list of topics for tomorrow's FESCo meeting.  It's a light
list, AFAIK there is no new business other than what we didn't get to
last week in light of the PA discussion.

49	Empathy - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Empathy
64	liblvm - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/liblvm

For more complete details, please visit each individual ticket.  The
report of the agenda items can be found at
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/report/9

If you would like to add something to this agenda, you can reply to
this e-mail, file a new ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/fesco,
e-mail me directly, or bring it up at the end of the meeting, during
the open floor.



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Apr 30 23:59:34 2009
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:59:34 -0700
Subject: FESCo Meeting Summary for 20090424
In-Reply-To: <1241133407.32113.388.camel@adam.local.net>
References: <49F24B17.30602@redhat.com> <49F25D0D.8030304@gmail.com>
	<gt1c4l$3h1$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<1240759385.6529.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1240762219.2770.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1241027428.3139.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<939dd5750904301050o4efb3efau356882109b2e206b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1241116151.32113.273.camel@adam.local.net>
	<939dd5750904301208l19123893rc9cd68609f8980be@mail.gmail.com>
	<49F9FD08.9010904@redhat.com>
	<20090430194821.GA25787@nostromo.devel.redhat.com>
	<1241133407.32113.388.camel@adam.local.net>
Message-ID: <1241135974.7846.23.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 16:16 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> gst-mixer - the old gnome-volume-control - has a rather better UI, but a
> somewhat odd work flow. To select an input device you have to hit
> Preferences and enable a bunch of controls "Line-in Capture", "CD
> Capture", "Microphone Capture" etc. (It may that these are displayed by
> default on some cards but this didn't work for me and Bill, I don't
> really know). Then you can go to the Switches tab and select your input,
> except for me the input selection switches act as checkboxes not radio
> buttons (they should act as radio buttons and only let one be selected
> at a time), so I can have Video Capture, Microphone Capture, CD Capture
> and Line-in Capture selected all at once, but the one I clicked on last
> is the one that's actually active.
> 
> So it's an odd interface and seems buggy for me and Bill, but it does
> what you need in the end. I don't know if either of these things are
> expected behaviour, Bastien might.

One strong thing gst-mixer has going for it is that it is what we had
before, so those people who were used to twiddling the bits, or use to
helping people through twiddling the bits will not have to learn yet
another new tool.  To me, that seems the most appropriate thing here,
keep the old tool around long enough until we're comfortable with the
new tool to stand on its own.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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